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feline
03-15-2013, 07:39 AM
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Legacy is a format of diversity, a format of extremes, & if you just want to focus on your goals, doing it with one of the more successful "turn 1 combo decks" in the format, because something about killing someone on turn 1 is just so much fun to pull off, then you've come to the right place. On a personal note, this was even my first Legacy deck.

1) Playing Belcher, the ultimate goal
2) Successful decklists & trends
3) Card choices
3a) Maindeck
3b) Sideboard
4) Recross the Paths Belcher (as written by FTW)
5) Price guide
6) Awesome links
7) The previous belcher thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5712-Deck-Belcher special thanks to Ewokslayer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?271-Ewokslayer)
8) 20 Match ups

1) Playing Belcher, the ultimate goal:
Your goal as a whole, is to kill the opponent as fast as possible, there's no other way to put it into simpler words. More specifically however, your goal is to be able to produce 4-7 mana, & a kill condition.

Mulligans. It all starts with the opening hand, the key cards to look for are:
Goblin Charbelcher (4 mana to cast, 3 to activate, 7 total)
Empty the Warrens (4 mana to cast, has storm count)
Burning Wish (2 mana to cast, net an Empty the Warrens, totaling 6 mana overall)
After that, you check for the number of remaining spells in hand & see the potential mana you can produce in order to cast one of those 3 above noted cards that are your kill conditions.

-Example- Opening 7: Goblin Charbelcher Lotus Petal Rite of Flame Desperate Ritual Lion's Eye Diamond Tinder Wall Land Grant. Do you see how that's a turn 1 kill? Play Land Grant for free since you have no land in your opening hand, get the single land out of your deck & put it into play, also play the Lotus Petal & Lion's Eye Diamond, tap your land to play the Tinder Wall, then sac the Tinder Wall for 2 red mana, play Desperate Ritual, netting you 3 mana floating, then sac the Lotus Petal to cast Rite of Flame, netting you 2 more red mana, totaling 5, use it (4 cost) to play Goblin Charbelcher, then sac the Lion's Eye Diamond to produce 3 more, using the mana to activate the Belcher at your opponent for the turn 1 kill.

Game 1's: Against most decks, if you are on the play, you will have no idea what your opponent is playing, the only potential help would come from lists that run Gitaxian Probe but aside from that, your on the play game 1's will often be a shot in the dark as to whether or not your opponent has Force of Will, however, that's about all someone will have if you're on the play, these will be the games you likely win the most, simply because the opponent will be likely unprepared.

Game 1's on the draw, if they have turn 1 discard they have it, there's not alot you can do about that. As far as what they might have access to for countermagic, in addition to Force of will, look out for things like Daze Spell Pierce Flusterstorm Spell Snare etc, depending on what they're playing, which you'll get a hint as to what they're playing since they will likely play a land on the 1st turn like 99% of most decks in legacy.

Playing around countermagic, the key number the opponent will likely be looking for is you trying to get to 4 mana, while they can hard counter Burning Wish & Goblin Charbelcher, they can't so easily hard counter Empty the Warrens, because of this, whenever you're against counter magic and have Empty the Warrens, remember they might even try to prevent you from even getting to 4 mana so you can't even cast it, since with it's storm it produces so many copies, so try to get to 3 mana before using a spirit guide for that 4th mana if you can. The other thing to remember against counterspell decks is that you can potentially "bait" them out, as an example, if you have a Lion's Eye Diamond in play, & you cast Burning Wish, they might burn a counter on your Wish because they know, you can still potentially remove a spirit guide from hand, dump your hand to the Lion's Eye Diamond, then have 4 mana & get an Empty the Warrens in which they will not be able to counter traditionally, because of it's storm count.

Game 2 & 3's: A little tricker, depending on what you are up against, most of your "true" sideboard cards will be anti blue stuff like Xantid Swarm Pyroblast etc. Other times however, it's better to keep your focus & just go for the kill to take them out before their sideboard even becomes relevant. "Wishless" Belcher decks have a higher focus on this, speaking of which...

Wishless build notes: If you decide to go this route, your goal is overall the same, however your deck should be looked at as a "48 card deck" (since Manamorphose, Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith draw for "free") Out of those remaining 48 cards, 8 of them are business (Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens) or, 1 in 6. As far as the sideboard plan goes for these builds, the "wishless" plan remains all in, to just kill them as soon as possible, afterall, their sideboarded in cards are irrelevant if they're dead. This is the reason you see some Belcher decks with a 15 Island or 15 different Atogs sideboard.

An intro Recommended article of popular demand by fellow Belcher posters
When one looks at the successful finishes posted by Charbelcher decks in Legacy over the summer, something curious seems to be happening. Almost everyone is playing either 8 or 11 kill cards. No other option seems to be under consideration. Is one of those options better? Is there a reason why nobody has tweaked their deck to have 9 or 10? This article will follow my attempts to answer these questions and my quest to build the best Charbelcher deck ever constructed. Bear in mind that this is about building the deck more than playing it, so those with no understanding of how the deck functions will probably not get as much out of their time...
For more: http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/rebuilding-legacy-charbelcher/

History:
Since the making of Goblin Charbelcher it has been used in "turn 1 kill" decks, though more popular in type 1 / Vintage when it first came out, did you know the traditional lists back then were "2 land Belcher?" I was able to find these 2 decklists for Legacy dating all the way back to 2005 if you want to take your research that far: 6th place - Jay Palmer - Syracuse NY. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=11359) & 15th place - Brian Lusk - Richmond Va. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13285) After that, I could find nothing at large scale Legacy events until the end of 2009, starting in this list below, when Belcher made it's 1st top 8 at the Starcitygames Open Series by a Cedric Phillips:

2) Successful Decklists & Trends: from here http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/ & http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&page=1
2009:
6th place - Cedric Phillips - SCG Philadelphia (147 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29965) 2 Land

2010:
8th place - Wilson Fisher - SCG Los Angeles (142 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30746) 2 Land
16th place - Roger Fondren - SCG Los Angeles (142 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30754)
9th palce - Lukas Parson - SCG Richmond (236 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31515) 2 Land
11th place - Cedric Phillips - SCG Indianapolis (286 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31845) 2 Land
4th place - Christian Valenti - SCG Atlanta (200 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32453) 2 Land
6th place - Christian Valenti - SCG St Louis (193 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33468) 2 Land

2011:
8th place - Ben Perry - SCG Los Angeles (216 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37489)
Printing of Mental Misstep in May
0 decklists
Banning of Mental Misstep in October
1st place - Poggesi Luca - Dragonsleague/Tarmogeddon, Padova (125 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5958&iddeck=43198)
14th place - Garett Young - SCG Indianapolis (290 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41100)
10th place - Jared Coppage - SCG Nashville (169 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41210)
12th place - Garett Young - SCG St Louis (277 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42536)
7-0 Legacy portion - Christian Valenti - SCG Invitational Charlotte (316 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7324&iddeck=53315)

2012:
Winter:
8th place - Kalle Sundberg - Finnish Legacy Champs 2011 (99 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7573&iddeck=55032)
15th place - Ethan Walker - SCG Los Angeles (180 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43205)
12th place - Eugeni Sánchez - 2º torneo Lliga Catalana (109 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7676&iddeck=56517)
14th place - Joshua Miller - SCG Charlotte (153 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44083)
11th place - Garett Young - SCG Memphis (94 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44247)
10th place - Gerardo Fedon - SCG Tampa (141 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44342)
Spring:
6th place - Jonas Löb - Legacy Event in Maintal (127 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8137&iddeck=59336)
13th place - Jacob Segmiller - SCG Phoenix (138 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45477)
11th place - Slay Hughes - SCG Birmingham (141 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45627)
13th place - Garrett Young - SCG Columbus (258 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46659)
6th place - Geoffrey Moes - SCG Columbus (258 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46655) Wishless
Summer:
11th - Quinton Ewing - SCG Seattle (187 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47501) Wishless
32nd place - Adam LeGear - GP Atlanta (905 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8666&iddeck=63256)
7th place - Gerardo Fedon - GP Atlanta (905 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47550)
2nd place - Corbin Rudnick - SCG St Louis (223 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47820) Wishless
4th place - Joshua Wiitanen - SCG Las Vegas (223 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48034)
20th place - Marek Vardzik - GP Ghent (1,345 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8757&iddeck=63947)
2nd place - Branson Mitchell - SCG Denver (142 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48929)
13th place - Marcus Knox - SCG Denver (142 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48941)
4th place - David Soriano - 9º torneo Lliga Catalana, Barcelona (128 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9118&iddeck=66623)
Fall:
13th place - Jordi Vidal - LCL 2012 Octubre (131 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9340&iddeck=69316)
10th place - Tyler King - SCG Indianapolis (204 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50199) Wishless
5th place - Brian Guess - SCG New Orleans (91 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50380)
13th place - Carl Hendricks - SCG Dallas (175 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50704)
10th place - Zack Meza - SCG Las Vegas (169 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51439)

2013:
6th place - Ben Perry - SCG Columbus (325 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52101)
26th place - Mike Augustine - SCG Columbus (325 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52097)
2nd place - Griffin Hansen - SCG Atlanta (230 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52853)
12th place - Mike Noble - SCG Edison (279 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53007)
13th place - Tyle King - SCG Cincinnati (279 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53155) Wishless
15th place - Anthony Bub - SCG Las Vegas (142 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53633)
3rd place - Ben Perry - SCG Cincinnati (277 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58815)
13th place - Jeff Stevens - SCG Cincinnati (277 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58829)
5th place - Dustin Klopping - SCG Cleveland (234 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59723)
15th place - Jeramiah Alton SCG Cleveland (234 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59754)
4th place - Billon Sylvain - BoM 2-Bye Trial 2013 (114 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12116&iddeck=88780)

2014:
13th place - Kenneth Mangan - SCG Orlando (239 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62558)
5th place - Julio Sanna - TeTe Open (113 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12855&iddeck=94269)
19th place - Jeremy Chestnut - SCG Seattle (320 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64878)
5th place - Yurien Seyssel - SCG Los Angeles (374 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65257)
15th place - Zakk Meza - SCG Los Angeles (374 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65262)
14th place - Charlie Edwards - SCG Knoxville (218 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67039)
16th place - Eric Jones - SCG Knoxville (218 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67030)
10th place - Daniel Brown - SCG Providence (302 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68699)
6th place - Sonny Aparicio - SCG Vegas (232 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69138)
6th place - Jesse Parnell - SCG Worcester (290 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69796)
14th place - Zac Hicks - SCG Atlanta (263 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72881)

2015:
Day 1 undefeated - Ryuichi Shirakihara - GP Kyoto (1,943 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16755&iddeck=125526)
6th place - Karl-Emil Drenck - Danish Legacy Masters (99 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18620&iddeck=141100)

3) Card choices:
3a) Maindeck:
Kill conditions: (average #, when ran)
Goblin Charbelcher (4, staple) Namesake card of the deck, play, target, even with 1 land in the deck it is almost always still lethal
Empty the Warrens (3, staple) Your secondary kill condition, cast ritual effects, drop an army of 1/1's turn 1, then take your combat steps to victory
Burning Wish (4, staple) With an Empty the Warrens in the sideboard, this is your other route of action in addition to the other 2 cards, your opening hand should always have 1 of these 3 cards in it.
Recross the Paths Seen in a rogue version of the deck that placed top 32 in SCG Columbus in 2013, article in the "Awesome Links" section below by the same person that piloted it, Michael Augustine

"Free" cantrips:
Gitaxian Probe (4, staple) A cantripping "peek" at the opponents hand, increases storm count, & allowing you to see what they're holding/playing even from game 1 when you're on the play, while drawing a card for free
Manamorphose (4, seen in multiple lists) A cantripping mana fixer, increases storm count, drawing a card for free, also a staple in "wishless" builds
Street Wraith (4, seen in fewer lists) Seen mostly in "wishless" builds that have a focus on drawing more, since they don't run Burning Wish

Permanent mana:
Land Grant (4, staple) Gets you to your single land for free, also a secondary for Chrome Mox fodder.
Taiga (1, staple) The 1 land in the deck, a Forces for Land Grant, & a Mountain for when revealed by Goblin Charbelcher, meaning you'll never have to flip more than 10 cards for lethal, & yes, if you reveal your entire library without a land coming up, it does that much damage.
Chrome Mox (3-4, staple) Your only other recurring, permanent source of mana after your 1 land, also giving you a secondary use for some cards in hand, like when you have 2 Burning Wish for example. Also remember if it "rituals" for a 1 time use of 1 mana, sometimes it's better just to Mox it instead. Also not always a 4 of as it is card disadvantage.

+1 mana:
Simian Spirit Guide (4, staple) Free to cast from the hand, producing 1 red mana
Elvish Spirit Guide (4, staple) Free to cast from the hand, producing 1 green mana
(Always remember when the opponent knows what you're playing, they'll know you have access to Empty the Warrens, so they might try to counter your last ritual effect that attempts to get you to 4 mana floating, & if you're at 3 mana, they can't traditionally counter a Spirit Guide removed to produce mana, allowing you to Empty the Warrens with storm count, which also can't be traditionally countered.)
Lotus Petal (4, staple) 0 to cast, producing any color
Pyretic Ritual (4, seen in most lists) 2 to cast, producing 3 mana total, giving you an increase of +1 red, & +1 storm count
Chancellor of the Tangle (4, seen in fewer decks)

+1 mana, with a potential for +2 mana:
Rite of Flame (4, staple) 1 to cast, potentially giving you +2 mana, if 1 is in the graveyard
Tinder Wall (4, staple) 1 to cast, potentially giving you +2 mana, if you cast it off a Taiga or Chrome Mox, then wait for 1 turn, as a non traditional bonus, it can also be a blocker for a turn against things like, Goblin Lackey as an example
Desperate Ritual (4, staple) 2 to cast, potentially giving you +2 mana for it's "Splice onto arcane", if you have 4 mana to cast, & 2 in hand
Grim Monolith (4, seen in fewer decks) Mostly in older lists, 2 to cast, potentially giving you +3 mana, if you cast it & wait for a turn.

+2 mana:
Seething Song (4, seen in multiple lists) 3 to cast, producing 5 mana total, giving you an increase of +2 red, & +1 storm count

+3 mana:
Lion's Eye Diamond (4, staple) +3 mana to activate Goblin Charbelcher, or +3 mana when you Burning Wish for an Empty the Warrens. Cast Wish > sac Lion's Eye Diamond in response > +3 mana > get your card from the sideboard. (Just make sure you have mana from another source, or that 4th mana in your pool to cast that Empty the Warrens)
http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_NPH/GitaxianProbe.jpg Out of the "free cantrips" Gitaxian Probe is the most common over Manamorphose & Street Wraith, +1 storm count, +1 card, & access to information, being the opponents hand, on game 1 can sometimes be invaluable

3b) Sideboard: (average #, when ran)
More common wish targets:
Empty the Warrens (1, staple) your 4th copy is always in the sideboard for a lethal wish target
Goblin War Strike (1, seen in most sideboards) A burn spell based on the # of goblins in play, works well off of Empty the Warrens with a 2nd Burning Wish in hand
Hull Breach (1, seen in most sideboards) Destroy an artifact (Like Pithing Needle) or an enchantment (Like Ghostly Prison) or both at the same time
Infernal Tutor (1, seen in most sideboards) Emptying your hand for ritual effects means this is basically a Demonic Tutor for your deck, provided you have enough mana
Pyroclasm (1, seen in most sideboards) 2 damage to all creatures in play, one of the best sweepers you can ask for with a mana cost of 2
Reverent Silence (1, seen in most sideboards) "free" to cast, destroying all enchantments, like multiple Leyline of Sanctitys in play
Shattering Spree (1, seen in most sideboards) Can destroy multiple artifacts in play, great against hate that is artifact based, as well as a use against match ups with lots of artifacts, like MUD, Stax, & Affinity if you are going slow & want to buy more turns
Other possible wish targets:
Diminishing Returns (1, seen in some sideboards) A potential draw 7, seen in mostly older belcher lists
Cave-in (1, seen in few sideboards) "free" to cast version of Pyroclasm
Tendrils of Agony (1, seen in some sideboards) Sometimes a secondary kill condition, 2 life per storm count
Ignite Memories (1, seen in fewer sideboards) Though amusing against Show and Tell decks with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn & Griselbrands in hand
Past in Flames (1, seen in some sideboards)
Grapeshot (1, seen in fewer sideboards)
Traitorous Blood (1, seen in fewer sideboards)

Non Wish targets:
Xantid Swarm (4, seen in most sideboards) Great against opposing Counterspell strategies, though keep in mind Swords to Plowshares & other cheap removal
Pyroblast (4, seen in most sideboards) Also great against opposing blue decks
Red Elemental Blast (2-4, seen in some sideboards) Sometimes people will 2/2 split the blasts
Carpet of Flowers (2-4, seen in some sideboards) For opposing blue decks
Autumn's Veil (3-4, seen in some sideboards) Can act similar to a counter & a Silence
Guttural Response (4, seen in fewer sideboards)
Mirri's Guile (3-4, seen in fewer sideboards)
Leyline of Sanctity (4, seen in fewer sideboards)

4) Recross the Paths Belcher:



//precursor mana: 20
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

//cantrips: 12
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Manamorphose

//further accel: 16
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

//Win: 12
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths
1 Meditate

//Sideboard: 15
4 Xantid Swarm
Empty the Warrens
Recross the Paths
Nature's Claim
Pyroclasm
Pyrokinesis
Infernal Contract
Shattering Spree
Flame Slash
Diminishing Returns
Past in Flames
Tendrils of Agony



Who needs to play Goblin tokens?

You guys have probably seen this version of Belcher before, but for those who haven't, here's an introduction.

Recross the Paths lets you stack your deck however you want if you have 0 lands. Basically, it's uber-Doomsday. Instead of 11 ways to combo out, you now have 11 ways to Charbelch. Forget making 1/1 tokens that can be killed. Forget passing the turn. You just win now.

Advantages of Recrossing:
-less passing the turn
-doesn't lose to creature hate
-fewer "fizzle hands" (no multiple land grants; no multiple spirit guides + EtW FTL; can use Chrome Mox without imprinting a critical mana source; not wrecked by Stifle as explained below)
-0 lands: Belcher never misses
-better use of sideboard cards: you can set up 1-ofs postboard without needing to wish into them. you can also support non-sorcery answers.

NOTE: You don't have to win with Recross. You can just win with the usual Belcher hand, and you can still Wish into Empty the Warrens if you want. But I'm only going to discuss the Recross paths to victory here since the others should already be well known.

Like Doomsday, you want to resolve Recross the Paths with mana floating and cantrips in hand. The exact pile you set up depends on the cantrips you have and the extra mana, if any.

BASIC BELCH KILL PILE:
----top of library----
*Street Wraith (only if you need to win clash to get Recross back, for imprinting on Chrome Mox or w/e)
*Setup1 (remaining mana needed to cast Meditate: LED, Manamorphose or Lotus Petal usually)
Meditate
LED
LED
Setup2 (usually an SSG/ESG/Petal/LED, but if you have extra mana floating this can be a hate-removal card like Cave-In or whatever)
Street Wraith
Goblin Charbelcher
*LED (if you expect Stifle, no harm in a back-up LED to Belch again next turn. also good if opponent Spell Pierces/Dazes Belcher and you run out of mana)
----bottom of library----

Each * represents an optional slot.

Easy guide to setup 1:
If you have 3 mana floating and 1 cantrip, setup1 = Manamorphose
If you have 0 mana floating and 2 cantrips, setup1 = LED
If you have 2 mana floating and 2 cantrips, setup1 = Street Wraith + Chrome Mox (better to save LEDs for other parts of the chain)
If you have 1 mana floating and Rite of Flame in GY and 2 cantrips, setup1 = Rite of Flame + Manamorphose

If you have less, you probably can't go off this turn and should set up a pass-the-turn pile (Wraith + LED on top of Meditate)

Here's how some of the piles would play out.

Example 1: you have 0 mana floating and 2 cantrips in hand after resolving Recross:
LED
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

You cantrip once. Drop LED. Cantrip again, popping LED in response for UUU. Draw and cast Meditate. Drop LEDs and Petal. Cycle Wraith, popping for 7 mana in response. Draw and activate Charbelcher. If you only had 1 cantrip in hand instead of 2, you can make this a "pass the turn" pile.

Example 2: you have RR floating, Chrome Mox in hand and only 1 cantrip
Street Wraith
Manamorphose
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

You win the clash off Recross (usually). Drop Chrome Mox, imprinting Recross, GRR in pool. Use cantrip to draw Street Wraith. Street Wraith to draw Manamorphose. Manamorphose to convert your mana into URR. Cast Meditate. Etc. Win.


Example 3: you have 2 mana floating, only 1 cantrip, and Meditate stuck in hand
Manamorphose
Rite of Flame
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

Cantrip into Manamorphose, making UR and drawing Rite of Flame. Rite of Flame up to at least URR. Cast Meditate FTW.

Contrary to what Griffin Hansen said, you don't auto-lose with Meditate in hand. You just can't use the LED+2cantrip set-ups.



If you have fewer resources, you can still set up a kill in a few turns as a Hail Mary. Passing the turn 2 times and Belching immediately may actually not be worse than casting Empty the Warrens for 8-12 this turn.

Example 4: you have 0 mana floating and no cantrips
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Meditate
LED
LED
SSG
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

This involves passing the turn twice. But then, when you have LED and Probe, you can cantrip into Meditate, cast Meditate, and Charbelch FTW. This shows you can still set up a 2-turn win even with 0 resources post-Recross, making mulligans to 5-6 and playing through Daze not auto-losses. Keep in mind EtW takes at least 2 attacks to win so this "bad case" is not any slower. Also, with even one cantrip you only have to pass the turn once.


Example 5: you have 0 mana floating and 1 Street Wraith. opponent has Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist but no other clock.
SSG
Seething Song
Cave-In
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Meditate
LED
LED
ESG
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

You pass the turn and take 4. Draw SSG. Take 4. Draw Seething Song. Street Wraith into Cave-In, pitch Seething Song and use SSG to cast Cave-In to kill the hatebears and any other dorks. Pass the turn. LED. Pass the turn. Probe into Meditate FTW. Yeah, yeah, it takes 4 turns. But it beats just losing to double storm hate.



If opponent drops Needles or Revokers or has some other kind of protection from Belcher, you CAN set up convoluted piles with extra mana and extra card draw and Burning Wishes to find answers, but it's easier to just Tendrils them instead.

BASIC TENDRILS PILE
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
Flex Slot
Gitaxian Probe
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Burning Wish
----bottom of pile----

Top two cards are as discussed earlier to set up Meditate. Crack LEDs for RRRGGG, Probe to see opponent's grip to ensure the coast is clear, cantrip to build storm count, converting to have at least 2 black mana, and then Tendrils with storm 10+. Note that Wish for Tendrils only takes 6 mana (2 LEDs) instead of the 7 for Belcher, so you have a flex slot for either more mana (to play around spell pierce/daze) or for an anti-hate card if you have the resources floating to cast it.


If you need to Tendrils through Leyline or some other hate, you can make this pile:
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish
LED
Lotus Petal
answer card
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Burning Wish
----bottom of pile----

Meditate into triple LED for RRRGGGBBB. Probe into Wish into Infernal Contract, drawing four with RRGG floating. Lotus Petal. Cast your answer card (Pyroclasm, Nature's Claim, Wish into something, whatever). LED for BBB, cantrip to build storm, Tendrils for 15+ storm.


If you need to kill a Leyline AND win around Gaddock Teeg, the last pile works too, but Grapeshot might be easier.
BASIC GRAPESHOT PILE
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish --> Infernal Contract
Seething Song
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Burning Wish -> Hull Breach
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
*Gitaxian Probe/Manamorphose
Burning Wish -> Grapeshot
----bottom of pile----

Make RRRGGGBBB with LEDs. After Infernal Contract, you have RRGG left. Double Seething Song up to RRRRRRRG, Wish into Hull Breach with RRRR left, cantrip some more, then Wish into Grapeshot for 20.


If opponent has Needle/Revoker on LED or Null Rod or a Deed/EE@0 or some other artifact hate to stop you from using triple LED, you can do this:

RITE OF FLAME PILE -- Needs +1 initial mana or 1 Rite of Flame already in graveyard
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
Rite of Flame/SSG
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Goblin Charbelcher (or 4 Manamorphose + Burning Wish + Tendrils)
----bottom of pile----

Triple Rite of Flame = 7 red mana, the magic number. You just need an additional 1 red precursor mana. If you already cast 1 Rite of Flame before Recross the Paths, you don't need the extra mana -- you can just use an SSG to get started, your 2 Rites will conveniently net +5 mana up to 6, and then you can pick the Tendrils win. Also a nice way to beat Null Rod.


Finally, I will post one pile of hilarity (Requiring slightly different deck configuration -- 1 Faithless Looting in SB and boarded in):

The LOLpile:
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract
Seething Song
LED
Faithless Looting
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Past in Flames
Seething Song
Seething Song
Seething Song
Desperate Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Burning Wish --> Answer card 1
Burning Wish --> Answer card 2
Answer card 3
Answer card 4
Lotus Petal
Burning Wish
----bottom of pile----

Alright, what in the hell's name is this monstrosity? First thing's first: close the blinds, because this is some hardcore masturbating.
Meditate as usual, stack Probe and crack the LEDs for RRRGGGBBB.
Wish into Infernal Contract and draw 4.
Cast Seething Song up to RRRRRG.
Faithless Looting, discarding 2 Rite of Flame.
Flashback Faithless Looting discarding 2 Rite of Flame, with RG left.
Manamorphose and crack LED for RRR (plus RR when Manamorphose resolves).
Manamorphose some more.
Draw into Past in Flames and cast it with R floating.
Quad Rite of Flame and Seething Song up to 13 red mana.
Manamorphose 4 times to draw 4 cards and filter your mana into whatever colors you want (making sure to create at least BBBBU).
Cast the 3 Seething Songs up to 19 mana.
Cast Meditate to draw 4, down to 16 mana.
Cast Infernal Contact to draw 4, down to 13 mana.
Cast quadruple Desperate Ritual, Splicing onto Arcane as much as possible. That should bring you to 23 mana if done correctly.
Burning Wish for Pyroclasm to kill all hatebears. (19 mana)
Burning Wish for Hull Breach or Shattering Spree to kill a bunch of hate permanents. (13-15 mana)
Cast 2 more kill spells for the hell of it. (10+ mana)
Flashback Past in Flames. (5+ mana)
Flashback triple Seething Song and Quad Desperate Ritual for +10 mana. (15+ mana)
Flashback some more kill spells. (5+ mana)
Lotus Petal and pop for B.
Flashback Probe into Burning Wish.
Tendrils/Grapeshot with storm 57+

You probably never need that pile ever. But if you want to kill a whole crapload of random protection and 5 players at once, who's to stop you?

5) Price guide of more common Belcher cards: As of March 2013 (For the most current prices, click on the link of each card) High-Mid-Low according to http://magiccards.info/ & http://magic.tcgplayer.com/all_magic_sets.asp
$50.00+ average:
Lion's Eye Diamond (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond&sn=Mirage) $89.98 $71.97 $62.66
Taiga (Revised) (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Taiga&sn=Revised%20Edition) $79.98 $59.99 $54.17

$20.00 to $50.00:
Burning Wish (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Burning%20Wish&sn=Judgment) $25.97 $20.90 $16.75

$10.00 to $20.00:
Chrome Mox (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Chrome%20Mox&sn=Mirrodin) $15.44 $13.91 $12.40

$5.00 to $10.00:
Infernal Tutor (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Infernal%20Tutor&sn=Dissension) $8.23 $5.99 $3.43

$2.00 to $5.00:
Goblin Charbelcher (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Goblin%20Charbelcher&sn=Mirrodin) $7.97 $4.13 $3.30
Lotus Petal (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Lotus%20Petal&sn=Tempest) $4.49 $3.19 $2.46
Street Wraith (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Street%20Wraith&sn=Future%20Sight) $4.47 $3.29 $1.95
Elvish Spirit Guide (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Elvish%20Spirit%20Guide&sn=Alliances) $5.87 $3.88 $3.20
Shattering Spree (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Shattering%20Spree&sn=Guildpact) $3.99 $3.48 $2.49
Xantid Swarm (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Xantid%20Swarm&sn=Scourge) $4.10 $2.49 $1.95
Rite of Flame (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Rite%20of%20Flame&sn=Coldsnap) $3.80 $2.36 $1.59
Manamorphose (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Manamorphose&sn=Shadowmoor) $3.91 $2.89 $2.00
Past in Flames (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Past%20in%20Flames&sn=Innistrad) $4.95 $2.42 $1.42

$1.00 to $2.00:
Seething Song (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Seething%20Song&sn=Mirrodin) $2.99 $1.81 $0.76
Tendrils of Agony (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Tendrils%20of%20Agony&sn=Scourge) $2.32 $1.23 $0.53
Carpet of Flowers (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Carpet%20of%20Flowers&sn=Urza's%20Saga) $1.53 $1.00 $0.59

$1.00 or less average:
Empty the Warrens (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Empty%20the%20Warrens&sn=Time%20Spiral) $1.53 $0.74 $0.38
Gitaxian Probe (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Gitaxian%20Probe) $1.23 $0.52 $0.30
Land Grant (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Land%20Grant&sn=Mercadian%20Masques) $1.19 $0.63 $0.36
Simian Spirit Guide (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Simian%20Spirit%20Guide&sn=Planar%20Chaos) $1.22 $0.71 $0.42
Tinder Wall (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Tinder%20Wall&sn=Ice%20Age) $0.88 $0.26 $0.14
Pyretic Ritual (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Pyretic%20Ritual&sn=Magic%202011%20(M11)) $0.78 $0.26 $0.08
Desperate Ritual (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Desperate%20Ritual&sn=Champions%20of%20Kamigawa) $1.95 $0.94 $0.65
Pyroblast (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Pyroblast&sn=Ice%20Age) $1.07 $0.53 $0.30
Red Elemental Blast (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Red%20Elemental%20Blast&sn=Fourth%20Edition) $0.78 $0.26 $0.10
Diminishing Returns (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Diminishing%20Returns&sn=Alliances) $1.99 $0.56 $0.24
Reverent Silence (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Reverent%20Silence&sn=Nemesis) $0.69 $0.27 $0.09
Pyroclasm (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Pyroclasm&sn=Magic%202010) $1.00 $0.36 $0.20
Goblin War Strike (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Goblin%20War%20Strike&sn=Scourge) $1.38 $0.30 $0.19
Hull Breach (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Hull%20Breach&sn=Commander) $0.50 $0.32 $0.23

6) Awesome Links: In relation to Belcher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Goblin%20Charbelcher) & Legacy
Price trends of singles:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/Mirrodin/Goblin_Charbelcher

Belcher articles/reports/etc:
2013:
http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_tony_chu_vs_griffin_han.html Feature match, Belcher in the finals, SCG Atlanta (Griffin Hansen)
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/stacks-on-stacks-on-stacks/ Article, Recross the Paths Belcher that made top 32, SCG Columbus (Michael Augustine)
2012:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3281 Podcast from Serious Vintage, covering Belcher. With Nat Moes, Geoff Moes & Josh Chapple.
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/rebuilding-legacy-charbelcher/ Article, Belcher (oarsman (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?30537-oarsman)/Joe Lossett)
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_matt_hoey_vs_corbin_rud.html Feature match, Belcher in the finals, SCG St Louis (Corbin Rudnick)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpatl12/welcome#2 Feature match, Belcher in the top 8, Grand Prix Atlanta (Gerardo Fedon)
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/andoferguson-040912-its-time-to-belch/ Article, playing the Belcher deck (Ando Ferguson)
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpind12/day2#7 Deck Tech from GP Indianapolis (Nathan Connor)
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2807 Tournament report, SCG Columbus top 8 (Geoffrey Moes)
2011:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20418-8th-at-SCG-LA-with-Belcher-and-undefeated-in-the-swiss-A-long-Report Tournament report, SCG Los Angeles top 8 (everythingitouchdies (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?30426-everythingitouchdies)/Ben Perry)
2010:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=659 Tournament report, Belcher in the finals, GenCon Indy 2010 (Matt Hazard)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18969_Deck_Tech_Charbelcher.html Deck Tech back when it was 2 Land Belcher (Cedric Phillips, Calosso Fuentes)

Belcher decklist sources:
Starcitygames.com Belcher decklists 2009-to-today (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2005-01-02&end_date=2013-03-17&city=&state=&country=&start=1&finish=16&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=Goblin+Charbelcher&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=Empty+The+Warrens&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=date+desc&order_2=&limit=100&action=Show+Decks&p=1)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Belcher&format=Legacy

Legacy metagame:
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&page=1
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24023-40-Tier-Legacy-Decks-Lists-Singles-Prices-etc-To-be-updated-regularly(started-2012)

7) The previous Belcher thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5712-Deck-Belcher started by Ewokslayer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?271-Ewokslayer) with about 6 years worth of Goblin Charbelcher information, starting all the way back in mid 2007. Special thanks Ewokslayer, & to all that took part in the discussion & helped fill the thread with valuable information over all this time.
Page 65 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5712-Deck-Belcher/page65) has some discussion about Recross the Paths

feline
03-15-2013, 07:41 AM
8) 20 Match ups: (Based mostly on decks that have performed with some level of consistent, higher placings since Return to Ravnica Legacy)

00) Against all decks
Pre sideboard: If you are on the play & it's game 1, there is really only 1 thing to watch out for, opposing Force of Will, aside from that, that's really it! As a bonus, you have the element of surprise, so it's not likely they will keep their hand based on Force of Will alone, because of that, you will win alot of game 1's simply because they will not know you're playing belcher, until you take your 1st turn, & kill them.
If you are on the draw game 1, there is additional stuff to watch out for, they might do turn 1 discard against you, that can't really be stopped, but other than that, all you have to do is keep in mind if they have access to blue or not after they pass the turn, an single untapped Island can cast Spell Pierce Spell Snare Flusterstorm & though less likely, even the possibility of Envelop. Other cards in addition to Force of Will are Daze. This is something to remember whenever the possibility presents itself.
Post Sideboard: As for game 2/3, you'll want to cut the weakest ritual effect, like pyretic ritual, or even gitaxian probe, once you know what you're opponent's playing, you can play games 2 & 3 like they have a more disruptive hand & play how you would play if you knew they had it anyway, however that requires being comfortable enough so if you prefer keeping in Gitaxian Probes, then cut Pyretic Ritual. You will largely be focused on the same goals, their sideboard increase will likely be in the form of disruption, discard if it's black, counterspells if it's blue, as well as other random stuff like Leyline of Sanctity. Your primary hated color to watch out for however is blue, so your true sideboard cards are going to focus on that, via Xantid Swarm & Pyroblast. Since you know what they are playing after game 1, if you play the remaining games with their worst countermagic in mind, you can take out the Gitaxian Probes to bring in some of your Blasts / Xantids, since taking out too much mana producing stuff will make you slower to go off, & against blue tempo strategies like RUG, you won't have a bunch of turns to sit & build up a hand. Even against slow blue control type decks, they will spend their turns picking up more & more countermagic, so you have to judge each individual game accordingly given the situation for when it is appropriate to do what. Also keep in mind, any deck has the potential to be running Mindbreak Trap when they don't have traditional ways to fight a fast combo deck, being that Mindbreak Trap is essentially "free" to cast.
Other suggestions I have been informed of: Against opposing Wasteland from decks that will likely slow you down, a lesser known strategy is to have a 1 of Forest in the sideboard, bringing it in so you can play a land without having to worry about it being a 1 time use against Nonbasic land hate.

As far as the specific match up's go, your ultimate goal remains the same, so I will focus more on what they will have as potential disruption against you.
01) RUG (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will, if they're on the play Daze, Spell Pierce & Spell Snare, & Stifle against your storm trigger, or even Belcher activation.
Post sideboard: Add Pyroblasts, as they have burn access, & unless you think you can "next level" them bringing in Xantid Swarms & think they will side out their burn, you don't want to play a Xantid Swarm only to have it get easily answered. They will likely bring in Pyroclasm in the form of Rough//Tumble, since it doesn't kill their flipped Delver of Secrets.

02) Stoneblade (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will, if they're on the play, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize, & possibly Engineered Explosives for 0. If they get to turn 2 or later, also Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Wrath effects, a Batterskull gaining life, this is one of the most important match up's where you kill them as soon as possible, waiting it out will only become more difficult.
Post sideboard: Add Pyroblast. Again, you might be able to "next level" them bringing in Xantid Swarms, but that's only if you suspect they would side out their Swords to Plowshares suspecting that you wouldn't bring Swarms in. 1 thing to note though, they might be forced to use a counterspell on an attempted Xantid Swarm, since their early removal is mainly just Swords to Plowshares. They will however, likely bring in more disruption in the form of increased discard & counterspells.

03) UW control variants (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will, if they're on the play Spell Pierce & possibly Engineered Explosives for 0. If they get to turn 2 or later, they will set up miracle tricks with Terminus, possibly get a Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top lock going, and have access to more disruption in the form of Counterspell, Vendilion Clique. Whatever their kill condition is remains irrelevant like most decks, whether it's the Helm combo or Entreat for X 4/4 Angels, your goal is to kill them well before they get to that point.
Post sideboard: Add Pyroblast. Unless you think you can "next level" them with Xantid Swarms like against other opponents with maindeck removal. 1 thing to note though, they might be forced to use a counterspell on an attempted Xantid Swarm, since their early removal is mainly just Swords to Plowshares. They will likely bring in more disruption in the form of increased counterspells.

04) BUG decks Aggro, Midrange, Shardless, Control (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will (notice this is a trend against many Legacy decks), if they're on the play Daze from BUG aggro/tempo strategies, Thoughtseize from more BUG control strategies. Also never forget the potential for Spell Pierce, Inquisition of Kozilek, though I didn't see the latter on most higher placing BUG maindecks as of recent. If they get to turn 2 or later, Hymn to Tourach, also be aware of Deathrite Shamans ability to block a 1/1 without dying, and the potential to gain 2 life every turn, so make sure you make a big enough army if you're on the draw & they turn 1 play a Deathrite Shaman.
Post sideboard: Add Xantid Swarm especially if you're on the play, their removal that is Abrupt Decay will be too slow, & if they tap out on their turn 2 to kill it because they're on the play, then they will be tapped out giving you a possible out to just go off with only Force of Will in mind. The more BUG aggro strategies might bring in Spell Pierce if none are maindecked, while any BUG deck has the potential to sideboard in more discard & counters to compliment what is maindecked already.

05) Jund (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting required, a more common match up)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play, you should win this game by default. If they're on the play, they have turn 1 discard in the form of things like Thoughtseize and that's about it, also note if they play a Deathrite Shaman since it can block, take out a 1/1, not die, & potentially gain them 2 life a turn, so make sure your 1/1 goblin army is big enough. From their turn 2 they can also Hymn to Tourach, & from turn 3, potentially Maelstrom Pulse your 1/1 goblin army away, though most don't run more than 1 or 2 of these, & it's only a turn 3 or later play for them anyway.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to bring in Swarms or Blasts here so you're basically the same deck. They will likely bring in more discard like Duress, and maybe Engineered Plague naming goblins, but they can't cast that until their turn 3 which could be too late.

06) Dredge (Disruption, Light playtesting required)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play, you should win this game by default. If they're on the play, they have 1 out, Cabal Therapy, however, they likely won't know you're playing belcher on game 1, so they will likely spend their 1st turn doing what dredge does best, setting up their dredge cards.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to bring in Swarms or Blasts here so you're basically the same deck. They might bring in Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Iona, Shield of Emeria as a Dread Return target, but that's too slow most of the time. The only other option they "might" have is to bounce Goblin Charbelcher with a Chain of Vapor, & if you can activate it the same turn you play it, then it doesn't even matter.

07) Maverick (Light playtesting required)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play, you should win this game by default. If they're on the play, they will not even do anything relevant until their turn 2, which at that point would be a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Green Sun's Zenith for a Gaddock Teeg, but again, that isn't until their turn 2 or later.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to bring in Swarms or Blasts here so you're basically the same deck. They might bring in more hate bears, but any of them will likely be too slow. This is also one deck that, since they have no access to discard or counterspell colors, might sideboard in Mindbreak Trap since it'd be their only out from their turn 0.

08) Ad Nauseam storm decks (Combo, Disruption, Light playtesting recommended)
Pre sideboard: This is one of the few decks that can actually race you, usually decided by a die roll. If you make an army of 1/1's & need a couple combat steps to win, they have the potential to combo out before that & actually kill you, or even making their own 1/1 army of goblins, so push for playing a belcher if you have it since they don't run Force of Will. If they're on the play, they might have access to cheap discard spells like Cabal Therapy, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, less likely Thoughtseize because of how Ad Nauseam works with life loss, they want as much life as possible. However whatever their discard is, if they have it they have it, & they will nail something from your hand regardless.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to bring in Swarms of Blasts here so you're basically the same deck. They will likely remain largely unchanged post sideboard games as well since they to sometimes run Xantid Swarms & a bunch of Burning Wish targets. Again, this is a match up that is a race, & since you're both "super fast kill decks" it can literally come down to who win's the die roll if 1 person just combos out before the opponent, the key difference however is that TES & ANT type strategies have some disruption in the form of discard.

09) High Tide (Combo, Disruption, Light playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will. If they're on the play, also potentially Flusterstorm, from turn 2 on, they can start Merchant Scrolling for more counters directly. They are a combo deck, but they're much slower, if they win, it will be through their counterspells.
Post sideboard: Add Xantid Swarm for sure, you're fighting a mono blue deck (No removal, swords, burn, etc.) After that, your goal remains the same, kill them before they kill you, just always keep in mind that if they have an untapped mana, they have access to casting Flusterstorm, as one of the decks that will actually maindeck 2-3 of this card.

10) UR Delver (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will. If they're on the play, also potentially Spell Pierce & Daze. Similar to the elements of RUG, UR Delver runs a cheap casting decklist with fast creatures & tempo disruption, but has more of a burn focus.
Post sideboard: Add Pyroblasts, they run too much burn for Xantid Swarms. They might bring in their own blasts, but this is one of the few times where it might be Blue Elemental Blast instead of the Red ones, since they sometimes sideboard them, and you're playing a deck with red in it.

11) Show & Tell variants (Combo, Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will. If they're on the play, also potentially Spell Pierce & Daze. This is another fast combo deck, off the namesake card Show and Tell which can actually benefit you, if you have a Goblin Charbelcher in hand, & they cast Show and Tell, you can just put it into play without worrying about it getting counterspelled, & then just activate it off of a Lion's Eye Diamond in play, or Lotus Petal, Tinder Wall, Spirit guides removed from hand, the Taiga or Chrome Mox, etc.
Post sideboard: Add Xantid Swarms, they have little removal options so these will have to be counterspelled by the opponent to answer them. Even if they Show and Tell you can just drop it into play, if you have to swing into a blocking Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or whatever, doesn't matter, you're now "free" to go off because of the Swarms ability, & can just Belcher them right there. If you have to do it with actual storm count, if they go low enough off of a Griselbrand you might be able to just Burning Wish for a Tendrils of Agony if you run it as a 1 of and just kill them right there.

12) Reanimator (Combo, Disruption, Light playtesting recommended)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will. If they're on the play, Daze & discard like Thoughtseize. They are a fast combo type deck, reanimating a creature from the graveyard with cheap spells, however your deck is faster, & you should have combo'd off before they do every time. Some decklists will maindeck an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite though, so if you make an army of 1/1's, make sure they can get the job done fast, the more combat steps it takes to kill the opponent, the closer they are to reanimating and giving all your creatures -2/-2.
Post sideboard: Add Xantid Swarms. If they weren't maindecking Elesh Norn, they are sideboarding it in for sure. They will also potentially bring in more disruption in the form of more 1 cast discard or cheap counterspells like Spell Pierce if it's in their sideboard. They may also bring in Echoing Truth for your 1/1 goblin army. The ultimate goal is the same, kill them, before they kill you, if you resolve a Xantid Swarm against this deck, all it takes is 1 swing with it and you will be on your way.

13) Elves (Combo, Light playtesting required)
Pre sideboard: This is another game that should be an easy win, by default anyhow. They are probably combo elves like most lists, but their combo is slower. The only potential out they may have is to destroy your Goblin Charbelcher with a Green Sun's Zenith for a Viridian Shaman, but that's too slow for what you're doing. If you make an army of 1/1's, they can also drop alot of creatures fast, though not as fast as 12 goblins on turn 1, also elf lists have adopted Deathrite Shaman so make enough of an army for that +2 life gainer that can also kill a 1/1 by blocking each combat phase. For the most part however, the match up should be in your favor. Also don't forget you can Burning Wish for a Pyroclasm at any time, one of the match up's where this really shines.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to add Swarms or Blasts so you're basically the same deck. If they're running Deathrite Shaman, they likely have Bayous, and that gives them an out against combo in discard, so they might bring in Cabal Therapy since they have so many creatures to easily sac to it, maximizing useage of their Cabal Therapies on you. They're also a deck that might have Mindbreak Trap.

14) Merfolk (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
Pre sideboard: Cards to watch out for at all times Force of Will. If they're on the play, Cursecatcher if they play it, & Daze. While most of their counters are "taxing" counters, it is very effective against a deck like belcher that is so full of ritual type effects for mana sources. If you don't want them to draw into a Force of Will, you can combo out asap, while if you see that they don't have a force in hand, but have access to taxing counters, then try to get a Tinder Wall into play, it's +1 mana on the combo turn, but +2 mana if you wait a turn.
Post sideboard: Add Xantid Swarm since they won't likely have removal, though some random Merfolk decklists might run a couple Dismember it's not common and usually only a 2 of, never maxing out on a playset. They will likely bring in Spell Pierce for more counter, but that's about it, if you can get past their counters, which isn't as hard to do with access to a storm mechanic kill spell if you can get to the 4 mana to cast it, then you can steal the game even against a mono blue deck, though obviously, any deck that runs blue is going to give you the hardest time trying for your win.

15) Goblins (Light playtesting required)
Pre sideboard: This is a deck that has almost no interaction with you even after their 1st couple of turns, they are just not equipped to deal with your strategy, & this is another example of what for belcher decks is usually a "free win" The only exception, is if they are splashing black, which means they likely have some Duress or one of the other cheap 1 cast discard spells in their decklist, but that will be the extent of their disruption in those setups.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to add Swarms or Blasts so you're basically the same deck. The only out they really have against you is potentially bringing in Mindbreak Trap, anything else is likely going to be too slow.

16) Zombardment (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play, you should win this game by default. If they're on the play, they have access to turn 1 Cabal Therapy & Thoughtseize, however with the element of surprise, not knowing what the opponent is playing, Cabal Therapies are definitely the weaker of the 2 discard options since it's second cast from the graveyard requires getting a creature into play, and even that can be just to slow for a turn 1 combo deck like belcher. Technically they also have access to Tidehollow Sculler, but it cost 2 to cast.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to add Swarms or Blasts so you're basically the same deck. They "might" bring in additional discard from the sideboard, but that's about it, other than their discard options, they are just an aggro deck trying to kill you with Goblin Bombardment and combat steps.

17) 12 post (Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play, you should win this game by default. If they're on the play, they might be maindecking Pithing Needle based on the list that won San Diego in January, but that's about it. They also run Show and Tell so they might drop a bomb early, but even if they do, you still get another turn, and there's no counter magic to play around so feel free to cast whatever you feel is the best course of action from turn 1. As far as their ramp goes, that is even slower than their cast Show and Tell plan.
Post sideboard: You could technically add Xantid Swarms but it'd only be for 1 card, Flusterstorm. Based on the sideboard of that same list from San Diego, they might bring in Flusterstorm, Chalice of the Void or even Elephant Grass. They do have some outs with the Grass, Pithing Needle, Chalice if they get it early, & Flusterstorm if they get a turn with an untapped island in play, however you can still be faster than even all of that, with so many routes to just combo on turn 1, especially on the play, this is another match up that should be in your favor because they don't run Force of Will.

18) Junk/The rock (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play you should win the game by default, if they're on the play they have access to turn 1 discard like Inquisition of Kozilek & Thoughtseize, but that's about it, late game they also have Maelstrom Pulse for your 1/1 goblin army, but that only becomes relevant if they have it, & live that long. Also note Deathrite Shaman's here, since they can prolong them long enough to actually do that, blocking & killing a 1/1 without dying itself, & potentially gaining them +2 life a turn to negate some of the damage, so again, make sure your army of 1/1's can go the distance accordingly, making as many as you possibly can.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to add Swarms or Blasts here, so you're basically the same deck. They might bring in Hymn to Tourach if they aren't maindecking them already, but it costs 2 to cast, and their Pernicious Deeds & Green Sun Zenith'ing for a Gaddock Teeg costs even more, so really it will come down to who's on the play, & when they're on the play, if they even have any turn 1 interactions with you.

19) Death & Taxes (Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Pre sideboard: If you're on the play you should win this game by default. Even if they're on the play, a turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Phyrexian Revoker naming Goblin Charbelcher will just be too slow when you go off before that. This is another match up that should be in your favor & unless you have some bad luck, consider it one of another "freebies" because your opponent wasn't playing Force of Will or even any turn 1 disruption. As far as Stoneforge Mystic for a Batterskull, then putting the Batterskull into play a turn later, all that stuff is just too slow.
Post sideboard: There's no reason to add Swarms or Blasts so you're basically the same deck. They might bring in Ethersworn Canonist to increase their hatebear count, but again, it costs 2 to cast, and that's still just not traditionally fast enough against a turn 1 combo deck that the majority of the time, combo's on turn 1.

20) Belcher, the mirror match! (Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
Pre sideboard: If that happens, it's die roll time! How do we find out if our opponent is playing Belcher? They kill you before you kill them. 1 thing to note however, if Belcher deck #1 casts an army of turn 1 goblins, Belcher deck #2 can respond with a Burning Wish > Pyroclasm so even if you lose the die roll, you might actually be at an advantage if they go the 1/1 goblin route, only to learn you're playing Belcher as well.
Post sideboard: Even sideboard games, the plan will largely be the same, kill or be killed, whoever is 1st will have an advantage, now not just because of Goblin Charbelcher but also because you will know what each other are playing, and playing into a Pyroclasm is much less likely

Tao
03-15-2013, 08:26 AM
That is an amzing primer so far. Well done.

LeoCop 90
03-15-2013, 09:47 AM
Good work. I would suggest to mention Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle as possible maindeck cards, and Chancellor of the Annex , Mirri's Guile and Leyline of Sanctity as sideboard cards.

Final Fortune
03-15-2013, 10:01 AM
Good work. I would suggest to mention Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle as possible maindeck cards, and Chancellor of the Annex , Mirri's Guile and Leyline of Sanctity as sideboard cards.

For that matter, Guttural Blast is strictly better than Pyroblast because of its split mama cost for Elvish Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox.

sco0ter
03-15-2013, 01:35 PM
Nice read. But what happened to the second land (Bayou)? Why was it played for a long time, and then suddenly disappeared?

feline
03-17-2013, 12:01 PM
The second land was taken out because things got to the point of being able to do everything required with just red/green sources, as well when Spoils of the Vault was ran, it was because Empty the Warrens had not come out yet, though that is even older tech. Basically it just comes down to the evolution of the deck, as time went on, more and more stuff came out from red to support it just being Black/Red, save for Gitaxian Probe & sometimes 1 of sideboard cards like Infernal Tutor.

phazonmutant
03-17-2013, 02:53 PM
Great primer! Excellent information.
How do you feel about putting Recross the Paths in the Kill Conditions section? It seems like there's only one guy who runs Recross, which is too bad because it's a very sweet build. Maybe it could see more play and refinement if it's more prominently featured.

feline
03-17-2013, 03:01 PM
I will have to do research on exactly how that works, I remember seeing it and it's mostly obvious, but I'd want the notes to be correct, but right now I am working on updating the zoo primer, though if it helps I'm almost done with it, I'm on the very last part before I can say I've completed a 3rd primer in the past week, I think I've lost my mind to be enjoying doing this ha ha.

In either case, it can easily be added to the kill condition slot, though it would be noted as a rogue strategy, I did link the article about the guy that played it and his article afterward, it was too unique not to put something up there, someone mentioned it in Reddit the other day and I remembered, so I immediately went & looked for anything I could find on it, luckily the guy who played it wrote that article so was exactly what I was looking for.

-edit- Anyhow, for now, I noted it and put an emphasis that there's an article by the player himself as well ^.^

darkice
03-17-2013, 05:42 PM
you may add this article learn how to play blecher and mulligan hands
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/andoferguson-040912-its-time-to-belch/

and to sideboard add 1 forest on second game against wasteland, and made diference to cast xantid swarm in mid game

Viridia
03-17-2013, 07:05 PM
That Recross the Paths version is probably the most awesome Belcher list i've ever seen ^^

feline
03-19-2013, 02:13 PM
That Recross the Paths version is probably the most awesome Belcher list i've ever seen ^^

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/stacks-on-stacks-on-stacks/ Recross the Paths.

GoblinZ
03-20-2013, 05:10 AM
since I seldom play this deck, what do you usually side out against miracle, rug and stoneblade?

feline
03-20-2013, 06:32 AM
Well for me against those decks, after game 1 I know they are playing those decks, so I then play games 2 & 3 like they have force of will potential at all times so I don't really need to see their hand anymore, so I take out probes. If taking out a mana source is something you're more comfortable with, take out the weakest mana source, basically, Don't take out the Spirit guides, the Rite of Flames, Lotus Petals, Tinder Walls, stuff that's free or 1 to cast, but you could take out pyretic ritual, since between pyretic ritual & desperate ritual, desperate ritual can still do splice tricks and produce more mana under some conditions, while pyretic will always be 2 for 3, basically based on the previous lists, the 3 cards that are used the least but still used are manamorphose / seething song / pyretic ritual, so I'd lean toward those. One thing to note additionally however, if you're running Seething Song's you get 3 for 5, netting you +2 mana, so if you cut a ritual effect, it might be more beneficial to be running Seething Song's since you get more mana out of it, meaning you might be able to get by with one less ritual effect, so make the cut something that only produces +1, like pyretic ritual.

Buckjunt
03-20-2013, 02:04 PM
After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list.



Artifact: 18
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

Instant: 12
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

Land: 1
1x Taiga

Sorcery: 17
3x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame

Side Board:
1x Burning Wish
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Guttural Response
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Land Grant
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Trash for Treasure

Koby
03-20-2013, 02:25 PM
There is another article deconstructing Belcher to its primordial components and finding the most consistent set. Written by Joe Lossett
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/rebuilding-legacy-charbelcher/

feline
03-20-2013, 02:29 PM
oh hell yes I forgot about mtgdeals, though I didn't know Lossett went over Belcher, I know he knows his Legacy for sure, thank you, adding that right now.

LeoCop 90
03-21-2013, 04:27 AM
The deck is different than most lists out there in a couple ways. No cantrips, no seething song, Monolith and chancellor are in the main.

For the most part I agree with replacing seething song and Gitaxian Probe ( the only cantrip I'm running) with Chancellor and Monolith. Especially the second is very good because it gives you 3 mana if you wait a turn.
The only issue I find with chancellor is that 8 spirit guides + 4 chancellors main deck sometimes make my storm count too small. Don't you have this problem ?

feline
03-21-2013, 06:22 AM
For myself I don't run chancellor it's just too narrow, confining you to turn 1 or it's just Mox fuel after that really, and I already have pleanty I can let go to a mox.

Infinitium
03-21-2013, 05:25 PM
Since people has stated interest in Recross the Paths it might be worth pointing out that it has been tested before Michael Augustine's list (by myself among others, and from my experience there's a fair few things he didn't mention in his article). Page 65 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5712-Deck-Belcher/page65) of the old Belcher thread contains some more piles/card choices/discussion for those interested.

feline
03-21-2013, 05:36 PM
Thank you, I will note that right under the link to the previous thread. ^.^

Buckjunt
03-21-2013, 10:12 PM
For the most part I agree with replacing seething song and Gitaxian Probe ( the only cantrip I'm running) with Chancellor and Monolith. Especially the second is very good because it gives you 3 mana if you wait a turn.
The only issue I find with chancellor is that 8 spirit guides + 4 chancellors main deck sometimes make my storm count too small. Don't you have this problem ?

Not usually, I consistantly get 5 to 6 storm, and the consistency of the opening hands. As for chancellor being dead after turn 1, all we care about is the opening 7, the wish board is just a narrow contingency.

jin
03-26-2013, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure if you included this in your primer, but I feel that you should include the strategies in this article to build a Belcher deck. It is incredibly good. Not only should you link it, you should include its strategies in your primer. I've played it several times and it is incredibly consistent with going off first turn. I hope this helps.


Here is a link to an article I wrote on analyzing the charbelcher maindeck, if anyone is interested. You do need to scroll down an inch to find the start. Sorry, we are still figuring things out over there.

http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/rebuilding-legacy-charbelcher/

EDIT: Never mind, I just noticed Koby posted it on the first page. Sorry.
On a side note, I am currently running a SB I feel that is really strong and complements the articles 60 very well. Here it is:

4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Sylvan Library
3x Autumn's Veil
1x Forest
1x Empty the Warren
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Reverent of Silence

Forest comes in VS tempo decks and LD (usually non blue decks with wasteland as well). Sylvan Library, Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil comes in for Seething Songs and cantrips in the blue match up. The deck has been really consistent so far and the SB cards are always in my opening hand. The sylvan library has been really great against blue decks and discard decks as well.

feline
03-26-2013, 02:50 PM
I included that article in the primer post on the "links related to belcher & legacy" section, I had no idea Lossett even did a belcher article, was surprised. ^.^

jin
03-26-2013, 03:55 PM
I included that article in the primer post on the "links related to belcher & legacy" section, I had no idea Lossett even did a belcher article, was surprised. ^.^

It's mind blowing how good it is to raise consistency. With previous iterations, I sometimes got stuck without a win-con in my hand or too many. After making the adjustments mentioned in the article, this has not been a problem. A few times when I did have more than one win con in my hand, I managed to use both. The first being counter magic bait while the second being the true win con. It was brutal for the blue player. His Belcher philosophy in conjunction with my SB is the only Belcher deck I feel safe playing against blue decks. You should really try to incorporate what he says in the primer. I really do feel it deserves more than a link (you have a lot of links...)

feline
03-26-2013, 04:48 PM
Oh I see what you're saying, I can go over that and add some stuff to the primer from it, give me a bit on it though, currently I am working on another project, but I can go over that sometime shortly.

-edit- put an intro to the article in the 1st part of the primer & a second link to it.

Buckjunt
03-27-2013, 07:52 AM
Chancellor of the annex, infernal tutor and sylvan library should be listed as side options, I have also seen multiple lists side in a basic for forest.

jin
03-27-2013, 10:14 AM
Oh I see what you're saying, I can go over that and add some stuff to the primer from it, give me a bit on it though, currently I am working on another project, but I can go over that sometime shortly.

-edit- put an intro to the article in the 1st part of the primer & a second link to it.

Take your time. I'm not expert, so I don't want to give you my interpretation of it, but after reading the article, I can really feel the difference in terms of consistency and power with the article's main deck. I just feel that it's important that other people get that same feeling as well. Just the talk about the percentages and the reason for those win-cons are very compelling arguments for running that number of cantrips/win con/mana ratio.

Buckjunt
03-30-2013, 11:55 AM
Though I understand the theory behind cantrips, I am jaded by them because they tend to screw me more than not, hence the list I have been working on that runs 0 cantrips.

Vacrix
04-08-2013, 06:26 AM
It's mind blowing how good it is to raise consistency. With previous iterations, I sometimes got stuck without a win-con in my hand or too many. After making the adjustments mentioned in the article, this has not been a problem. A few times when I did have more than one win con in my hand, I managed to use both. The first being counter magic bait while the second being the true win con. It was brutal for the blue player. His Belcher philosophy in conjunction with my SB is the only Belcher deck I feel safe playing against blue decks. You should really try to incorporate what he says in the primer. I really do feel it deserves more than a link (you have a lot of links...)
It is a good point he makes in the article.


However, the SB is what has been holding back Belcher as a deck. Ironically, Belcher has 15 board slots that for some reason get treated like they could somehow 'protect' a glass house. Its still made of glass. You're still building a deck that one shots the opponent or doesn't. The sideboard, then, is the opportunity in a system deck like Belcher to play a similar strategy using the acceleration and fast mana to still do something powerful on the first turn, but not necessarily go for the throat early on. For example, Mirri's Guile/Carpet of Flowers/Xantid Swarm are powerful turn 1 plays. They allow you to set up against an opponent with permission, punish them for playing multiple Islands, and ultimately, push through your business spells. This strategy works far better in Spanish Inquisition where the business density compliments the sideboard plan. Still, the cards can be played in both decks. The question is, what is the proper configuration? Ultimately the most important point to make is that Belcher is a 'mouse trap' that punishes an aggro heavy metagame. The mouse trap is just about as good as it gets or we would know about it immediately. Reforge the Soul? Yeah.. meh. Its been tried, I've seen a few good variants of it. They weren't any better than TES. If you want to make this mouse trap better, start by looking at the mouse-trap traps; control decks. If you notice, the sideboard that jin has mentioned has been (in different variants) doing quite well lately compared to other Belcher builds. Granted, sometimes Belcher just wins outright because the mice came in droves. But its those other times Belcher needs to prepare for if it wants to establish itself again as a force of the format instead of being inferior to TES in the hands of a seasoned player. Right now Belcher is just a stepping stone to higher levels of storm combo.

jin
04-08-2013, 09:15 AM
It is a good point he makes in the article.


However, the SB is what has been holding back Belcher as a deck. Ironically, Belcher has 15 board slots that for some reason get treated like they could somehow 'protect' a glass house. Its still made of glass. You're still building a deck that one shots the opponent or doesn't. The sideboard, then, is the opportunity in a system deck like Belcher to play a similar strategy using the acceleration and fast mana to still do something powerful on the first turn, but not necessarily go for the throat early on. For example, Mirri's Guile/Carpet of Flowers/Xantid Swarm are powerful turn 1 plays. They allow you to set up against an opponent with permission, punish them for playing multiple Islands, and ultimately, push through your business spells. This strategy works far better in Spanish Inquisition where the business density compliments the sideboard plan. Still, the cards can be played in both decks. The question is, what is the proper configuration? Ultimately the most important point to make is that Belcher is a 'mouse trap' that punishes an aggro heavy metagame. The mouse trap is just about as good as it gets or we would know about it immediately. Reforge the Soul? Yeah.. meh. Its been tried, I've seen a few good variants of it. They weren't any better than TES. If you want to make this mouse trap better, start by looking at the mouse-trap traps; control decks. If you notice, the sideboard that jin has mentioned has been (in different variants) doing quite well lately compared to other Belcher builds. Granted, sometimes Belcher just wins outright because the mice came in droves. But its those other times Belcher needs to prepare for if it wants to establish itself again as a force of the format instead of being inferior to TES in the hands of a seasoned player. Right now Belcher is just a stepping stone to higher levels of storm combo.

Although this may be true, I find it difficult to compare Belcher to TES. TES is a very dynamic and powerful storm deck, that requires a seasoned player to know how to properly can-trip and shape their hand. It also requires the understanding of many interactions that are obviously missing from Charbelcher. That said, Belcher is not as streamline in its game plan as most people think. It does take skill to mulligan in Belcher and playing against blue post board is typically a nightmare TES pilots don't have to deal with.

Of course, Belcher's weakness is also what defines its strength. Because it does not have the ability to use finesse like TES or to use its raw power like ANT, it overcomes these short comings by pure speed. This is an advantage especially in long tournaments where a run can take a full 12 hours. This can be very tiring for most players, but not Charbelcher players. Belcher players have the advantage of a fresh mind because of the sheer speed of the games.

Some might find this argument not compelling, but take a look at DDFT. Doomsday is probably one of the most powerful cards in Legacy, but its not a deck to beat simply because it takes a PhD in Magic the Gather to pilot that deck to perfection, while simple beat down decks just get there due to simplicity. Charbelcher and ANT have this as its advantage over TES.

Buckjunt
04-13-2013, 10:26 AM
I have recently started testing a Land Grant in the side as a wish target. It was originally suppose to just be to test different numbers in the deck, since i seem to get multiple land grant/ land grant and taiga hands, i thought i would try to cut one. I later found, as i just put it in the side for the moment, that it not only stops me drawing multiples, but it also makes hands with only 5 mana and wish and warrens/wish and belcher from possible mulligans to keep-able, winning hands. I can now storm my 5 mana out, wish for land grant, and i have my 6th mana. of course this doesn't work for hands with taiga/land grant already, but it also allows me to up the storm count with 6 mana hands and wish/warrens.

Final Fortune
04-13-2013, 07:30 PM
I'm not sure if you included this in your primer, but I feel that you should include the strategies in this article to build a Belcher deck. It is incredibly good. Not only should you link it, you should include its strategies in your primer. I've played it several times and it is incredibly consistent with going off first turn. I hope this helps.



EDIT: Never mind, I just noticed Koby posted it on the first page. Sorry.
On a side note, I am currently running a SB I feel that is really strong and complements the articles 60 very well. Here it is:

4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Sylvan Library
3x Autumn's Veil
1x Forest
1x Empty the Warren
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Reverent of Silence

Forest comes in VS tempo decks and LD (usually non blue decks with wasteland as well). Sylvan Library, Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil comes in for Seething Songs and cantrips in the blue match up. The deck has been really consistent so far and the SB cards are always in my opening hand. The sylvan library has been really great against blue decks and discard decks as well.

That article is suspect, Belcher is a deck that lives and dies by its mulligans, and anything that makes your mulligans more difficult to judge is rarely, if ever a good idea as opposed to the reliability of 100% win conditions and mana sources. Not to mention you would have to be mentally defficient to play 2 Empty the Warrens and 4 Burning Wish over 3 Empty the Warrens and 3 Burning Wish because the more mana efficient win condition should obviously receive priority over the less mana efficient win condition for mulliganing. Furthermore, playing less than 4 Chrome Mox may be ok for gold fishing, but it is not ok for actual games vs decks with spells because you need permanent mana sources on the board in order to recover from counter magic on your mana accelerants.

Manamorphose is the worst possible card you could play in Belcher, as soon as you mulligan to 5 cards you'll understand why, because every time you cycle Manamorphose and brick you've lost 2 mana compared to cantripping Street Wraith (and Street Wraith still sucks).

Short of the math, I really don't think that guy knows what he's talking about, the only real things you should consider is whether or not you want to play Chancellor of the Tangle or replace Seething Song with Grim Monolith.

oarsman
04-14-2013, 12:20 AM
Final Fortune,
of course you would play more of the mana efficient kill condition. Now you tell me, if you can make three mana and have an LED, would you rather have Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens?

As for the Chrome Mox concept that almost nobody accepts, do you really need permanent mana to recover from counterspells? Really? How often would you say that you attempt to go off and get blown out by a counter, and then come back and win the game? Compare that to how often you wish your opening hand could produce one more mana. Decks with four Forces will draw one in their opener 40% of the time. If you win the other 60%, you are in great shape. That is a huge simplification, but sums up my reasoning for how the deck should be built for game one. The only way I would play a full set of Chrome Mox is if I was using Goblin Welder in the board (it doesn't really work, because your opponent will leave in Swords or Bolts on the chance that you have Xantid Swarm)

Permanent mana is nice, which is why I would play AT LEAST one land in the board. I would also play both extra copies of Empty in the board, since boarding out the Wishes and LED's against blue decks seems like a solid plan to me, but I have not put any real practice into that.

I agree that Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose, but it doesn't matter too much since you probably board it out either way. However Chancellor of the Tangle is terrible, as is Grim Monolith.


And you spelled mentally deficient wrong.

Final Fortune
04-14-2013, 04:23 AM
Final Fortune,
of course you would play more of the mana efficient kill condition. Now you tell me, if you can make three mana and have an LED, would you rather have Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens?

As for the Chrome Mox concept that almost nobody accepts, do you really need permanent mana to recover from counterspells? Really? How often would you say that you attempt to go off and get blown out by a counter, and then come back and win the game? Compare that to how often you wish your opening hand could produce one more mana. Decks with four Forces will draw one in their opener 40% of the time. If you win the other 60%, you are in great shape. That is a huge simplification, but sums up my reasoning for how the deck should be built for game one. The only way I would play a full set of Chrome Mox is if I was using Goblin Welder in the board (it doesn't really work, because your opponent will leave in Swords or Bolts on the chance that you have Xantid Swarm)

Permanent mana is nice, which is why I would play AT LEAST one land in the board. I would also play both extra copies of Empty in the board, since boarding out the Wishes and LED's against blue decks seems like a solid plan to me, but I have not put any real practice into that.

I agree that Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose, but it doesn't matter too much since you probably board it out either way. However Chancellor of the Tangle is terrible, as is Grim Monolith.


And you spelled mentally deficient wrong.

Lion's Eye Diamond doesn't make Burning Wish better than Empty the Warrens, it makes Burning Wish playable in a deck that would otherwise struggle to reach 6 mana consistently, if you actually play and mulligan with the deck instead of running Excel it's obvious you don't want to have to rely on a Lion's Eye Diamond to cast your win conditions over relatively interchangeable mana accelerants to reach 4 mana as opposed to 6. It's easier for the deck to cast Empty the Warrens with any combinations of mana accelerants than it is to cast Burning Wish and that issue compounds itself for every mulligan you're forced to take.

Your second paragraph more or less confirms my suspcion that you don't have any significant play experience with this deck, because Belcher doesn't get blown out by counter magic the same way other Storm decks gets blown out by counter magic. The opponent can't allow you to resolve a Pyretic Ritual or any other mana accelerant that'd allow you to reach the 3 mana threshold because you're essentially threatening Spirit Guide -> Empty the Warrens. You'll often be left with a win condition in hand and a Chrome Mox on the board in order to attempt to go off again. If your opponent aggressively mulligans for Force of Will on the draw and either breaks even or only pulls slightly ahead in card advantage, you have a chance of being able to top deck a couple of mana sources and resolve a threat before they can cantrip into more counter magic.

People who call Belcher a glass cannon are players who don't really have any experience with the deck beyond the first turn, and while it's more susceptible to counter magic than any other Storm variant it doesn't automatically lose the game once the opponent shows you a Force of Will unless he wants to risk letting an Empty the Warrens resolve.

The other thing you're forgetting, or rather approximating in a gold fish setting, is that resolving a Charbelcher is not an immediately game winning play because you have to activate it. Other combo decks exist, fast aggro decks exist and Stifle exist, all of which require you to activate Belcher in a meaningful time from or subsequently die. Chrome Mox, being 4 of the 9 permanent mana sources in the deck, plays a fairly important role in activating Charbelcher. Furthermore it's not just a mana accelerant but it's an initial mana accelerant that color fixes, you can't just consider the value of every card's mana generation because casting spells is linear, if not having an intial mana accelerant in hand means you can't cast X card then the mana generation of that card is 0.

You can't say "Manamorphose doesn't matter because you'll probably SB it out," MDing 4 cards that give you a liability while mulliganing game 1 are always going to matter, and you can't just SB them out after you've based your math and deck building on the virtual card efficiency provided by your cantrips otherwise you're playing a deck with a mathematically insufficient number of win conditions relative to a re-adjusted or non-existent virtual card efficiency post board.

If you think Chancellor of the Tangle and Grim Monolith are terrible without reasoning then I'm speechless, Chancellor of the Tangle has either one of the highest or highest net mana generation in the deck because it generates G and imprints on Chrome Mox, a play that gives you an un-Dazeable Chrome Mox and an un-Spell Pierceable Land Grant all while enabling Xantid Swarm, go. It's a less flexible, albeit not strictly inferior version of Elvish Spirit Guide. Grim Monolith is terrible, but when you compare Grim Monolith to Seething Song in real play scenarios it's difficult to tell which is more terrible than the other. Because while Seething Song does generate more mana for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens the problem is that its casting cost of 3 makes it virtually worthless after your opponent has countered your Pyretic Ritual, where you're able to rebuild faster with a Grim Monolith and its casting cost of 2 or by casting Grim Monolith off of a Chrome Mox and/or Taiga and passing the turn and reaching 4 mana on the following turn. Seething Song is also worthless while top decking for mana sources to activate Belcher, you'll get into race scenarios where you're facing a clock after you resolved your Charbelcher and you'll have to be able to draw accelerants you can cast to bait out Dazes etc. and activate Belcher before the opponent races you.

In short, Excel is not a substitute for play experience and without play experience you can't necessarily interpret an Excel spread sheet, the deck doesn't automatically win when Belcher resolves and accelerants don't produce mana regardless of one another and experienced Belcher players don't automatically scoop as soon as you show them Force of Will.

Chancellor of the Tangle is extremely good for what it is fwiw, I really don't know whether or not Seething Song > Grim Monolith or Grim Monolith > Seething Song but I think too many people have just arbitrarily dismissed the other mana accelerants for cantrips or think the current mana accelerants are better than the alternatives without either an Excel approach or actual playtesting. Put in time with the deck both by goldfishing by hand and by playing the deck vs aggro-control and you'll find that your interpretation of your Excel spread sheet and how the deck works is far from the truth.

Buckjunt
04-14-2013, 09:35 AM
Other points on chancellor and monolith:

Chancellor can be a win condition. There have been multiple games where I had no other win conditions, 7 mana and chancellor in hand. Game 1 this is a mulligan unless you know who/what you are facing, but game 2 or 3, not every opponent leaves xantids hate in, and a 6/7 vigilant beater will win you games, or at least be enough of a board presence to allow you to refuel. Also, if you run carpet of flowers, it is another threat in topdeck mode.

Monolith can also make use of unused lion's eye diamonds by using that mana to untap monolith in topdeck mode, making it possible to cast another win-con off of usually unusable mana.

Also, no thoughts on siding a land grant? It really does smooth things out, and it isn't an actual hard source like mox, though they often function similarly in the opening hand. Maybe its because I run chancellor, so I have more free initial mana sources, but it hasn't hurt me and only adds to the number of keepable hands, like Elvish Spirit Guide, lotus petal, elvish spirit guide, empty the warrens, burning wish, desperate ritual, simian spirit guide. Normally, you could either keep and hope for a good topdeck, cast empty the warrens for a tiny 6 goblin army, or mulligan. You can now keep and get ten tokens.

WorldslayerGuy
04-24-2013, 10:27 PM
Personally, I'm not sold on Chancellor. I understand the potential for one card=two mana is exactly what this deck wants, but I just haven't gotten around to playtesting it that much. On my list of things to try.

Something I'm trying out right now is two Mirri's Guile in place of two Seething Song. I'm in a fairly heavy combo meta, and I tossed them in as a plan for mid to long game. So far, results have been positive. Hasn't lowered my percentage of Turn 1's, and proves useful in those lovely times when you have to mull down to five. Anyone else tried anything similar? I seem to remember Sylvan Library popping up in a few lists.

feline
04-30-2013, 09:30 PM
Just based on the past successful lists alone, I don't think Chancellor is in any of them if I recall correctly.

walker
04-30-2013, 10:08 PM
I found an old list I brewed up with a buddy a long time ago when Past in Flames first came out. It inspired me to make this new deck, something like Belcherless Belcher. So I figured this would be an appropriate place to debut it.

Multiplayer Storm:

4 tarn
3 strand
3 volcanic
1 island
1 mountain

4 led
4 petal
4 chrome mox

4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
3 seething song

4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 burning wish
3 empty the warrens
2 past in flames

This is just a prototype, I have only played a couple real games with it so far. But I've been goldfishing it like crazy and it's super fun. The reason I call it multiplayer storm is because I goldfished t1 29 copies of tendrils, almost enough to kill 3 opponents.

Obviously it's quite different than traditional belcher because it doesn't have belchers and it has lands and blue spells. It does however use much the belcher shell. It's probably quite a bit more difficult to pilot since you end up building some really huge storms and cantripping a billion times in a turn so there's a lot more decision making. You have less t1 kills, but you have a lot more resiliency and the ability to rebuild if your combo gets shut down. You still do get the t1 kills, too. Just not as often. It also gives you opportunities to play some mental magic if your opponent doesn't know your deck (and they probably won't). For example if you t1 them game 1 without showing them any land, they'll think your on pure belcher and wont be ready for what you really are. Or open with flooded strand go, and your opponent isn't expecting a giant army of goblins the next turn (as a note, most of the time your empties are much greater than 10 goblins).

Anyway this is just an experiment, I wanted to share it and see if anyone has any feedback or see if anyone has tried something similar already.

ahg113
05-01-2013, 12:11 AM
No offense, but this looks like a bad TES/ANT deck. Taking out the flagship kill condition doesn't make sense? Especially if you're not exploiting black for accelerators or another kill condition, Tendrils of Agony. What advantages do you see in this deck over Belcher, or any other storm type deck?

This doesn't look anything like Belcher to be included in this thread. When you started adding lands, you lost me.

walker
05-01-2013, 12:54 AM
@ahg yeah maybe this was the wrong thread to post in. sorry if the consensus is that its spam i'll just delete my posts here. didnt feel developmental status yet. anyway, maybe this is just a bad storm deck, it could be horrible. as i said it's something i brewed up. it's an experiment, open your mind dawg. i brew decks all the time, sometimes they are crap sometimes there's an idea worth exploring. this one felt worth exploring so i decided to share. sleeve it up and try it out, i guarantee playing it is a much different experience than playing tes or ant. if i lost you when i started adding lands, i cannot understand you. the only reason not to run lands is for your wincon which doesn't want any. I stuck to wincons that don't care if you have lands in your deck (while keeping much of the traditional belcher shell intact and injecting it with steroids).

as far as advantages over belcher, it has a ton more card advantage since it gets to use its mana sources more than once and it plays brainstorms and ponders (those 2 cards are better than any card in belcher). I've played belcher for years and one of the decks biggest weaknesses is not being able to cast the cards in your hand since you have no IMSs after your combo gets shut down. that was my inspiration for making this deck, while upping the power level by adding the brainstorm/fetch interaction. it can empty and still have a hand/lands leftover to work with if they answer your dudes. When it storms, it storms much bigger than belcher, when you make dudes its generally 16+ so far in testing. Also, I certainly did not take out the flagship kill of storm decks, there are 4 burning wishes that can get tendrils or a bunch of other sweet sorceries. in a deck with only red and blue mana you don't want to play maindeck tendrils even with morphos n petals.

if ya'll are not into this being in your thread I understand and i'll remove it hastily, just let me know.

ahg113
05-01-2013, 02:38 AM
@walker, no worries dude, I wasn't calling your post spam. As a Belcher player, this just seemed so left field you were talking about another deck. I am far and away from a proper arbiter to say if something should stick or go.

I agree that Belcher is a very fragile deck, probably the most fragile deck in Legacy. That consistency is traded for pure speed. I think that's something that every Belcher player acknowledges and accepts, for better or worst.

As far as different, there's the article that describes playing with 2 Chrome Mox (something I'm trying right now, kinda sorta.) And another that doesn't play any land with Recross the Paths (something I'll try next most likely.)

Belcher even looks like a glass cannon, if glass were colored like dingy brass.

astormbrewing
05-01-2013, 07:26 AM
@walker, no worries dude, I wasn't calling your post spam. As a Belcher player, this just seemed so left field you were talking about another deck. I am far and away from a proper arbiter to say if something should stick or go.

I agree that Belcher is a very fragile deck, probably the most fragile deck in Legacy. That consistency is traded for pure speed. I think that's something that every Belcher player acknowledges and accepts, for better or worst.

As far as different, there's the article that describes playing with 2 Chrome Mox (something I'm trying right now, kinda sorta.) And another that doesn't play any land with Recross the Paths (something I'll try next most likely.)

Belcher even looks like a glass cannon, if glass were colored like dingy brass.

I was looking at the Recross the Paths version, but by taking out Land Grants and Taiga you're down to 16 initial mana sources, and my opening hands weren't as consistent.

andrebonotto
05-07-2013, 10:24 AM
Hi,


I'm finishing assembling this deck and I plan to bring it to a small tournament soon.

I've read this primer and must say I found it very well written and informative! Congratulations for feline for it!


The main reason I'm posting, though, is to ask about some cards on the sideboard:


1) Infernal Tutor:

In what situations is he used?
Isn't it a bit "unrealistic" to try to gather/spend 11 mana (B.Wish{2} + I.Tutor{2} + Belcher{4} + activation{3}) for it to work?
Or am I missing something about it's use...?


2) Leyline of Sanctity:

Is this really good for us?
Can't we fight discard "succesfully" with 1-3x Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library?
Would one want to mull agressively after the Leylines, even if it means to waste some reasonable hands?


Thanks for any enlightment,


- André

astormbrewing
05-07-2013, 12:56 PM
Hi,


I'm finishing assembling this deck and I plan to bring it to a small tournament soon.

I've read this primer and must say I found it very well written and informative! Congratulations for feline for it!


The main reason I'm posting, though, is to ask about some cards on the sideboard:


1) Infernal Tutor:

In what situations is he used?
Isn't it a bit "unrealistic" to try to gather/spend 11 mana (B.Wish{2} + I.Tutor{2} + Belcher{4} + activation{3}) for it to work?
Or am I missing something about it's use...?


2) Leyline of Sanctity:

Is this really good for us?
Can't we fight discard "succesfully" with 1-3x Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library?
Would one want to mull agressively after the Leylines, even if it means to waste some reasonable hands?


Thanks for any enlightment,


- André

11 mana is difficult, but not impossible.
(ESG, Tinder Wall)/(SSG, Rite of Flame), Burning Wish, LED, LED, LED
(ESG, Tinder Wall)/(SSG, Rite of Flame), Ritual, Seething Song, Burning Wish, LED, LED).

If you have 8 mana, you can BW -> IT -> EtW for an extra storm. I'm sure I'm missing other uses, but that comes to mind immediately.

I don't believe Leyline is what we want for a number of reasons, such as dead draws and bad mulliganing.

feline
05-07-2013, 06:54 PM
astormbrewing, are you officially pushing this deck now if I may ask? Or still in the "setting things up to play it at an open" process, if it can be called that. (testing/obtaining cards/"gauntleting" the format. Somewhere in that line, etc?)

astormbrewing
05-07-2013, 07:54 PM
astormbrewing, are you officially pushing this deck now if I may ask? Or still in the "setting things up to play it at an open" process, if it can be called that. (testing/obtaining cards/"gauntleting" the format. Somewhere in that line, etc?)

I'm building Belcher and Burn right now. Will likely play Belcher at SCG Baltimore next month.

walker
05-07-2013, 11:47 PM
Generating storm is really important and often relevant if you have to go for goblins. IT for empty is a solid play. For that alone IT is an auto include imo. IT for belcher is a good play when you have 3 mana from permanent sources to activate next turn. This happens more often post board with carpet of flowers and an extra land. I play IT and tendrils in my sideboard. wish -> IT -> wish -> tendrils costs 10 mana, 1 mana less than required to IT for belcher + activate. Generating enough storm requires a pretty hot hand unless they have already been damaged. Cantrips help that. Getting tendrils off in belcher doesn't happen super often, but it's memorable when it does. One time I got there because my opponent won the roll and opened with goblin guide. Of course Taiga is revealed and to my opponents surprise I draw the extra spell I needed to get exact mana and 10 storm for the t1 tendrils. I think it's worth the sideboard slot because it's a concise kill and gives double LED hands more potential. I could be wrong.. Anyone else play tendrils?

Buckjunt
05-08-2013, 02:18 PM
I currently do. It also is ideal to tutor for tendrils over belcher when you don't have taiga. And you don't have to have ten mana to tendrils, just most games.

andrebonotto
05-08-2013, 08:03 PM
Thanks for the replies regarding my post.

Indeed Infernal Tutor seems now interesting to me, because of the extra flexibility on storming/fetching kill conditions that it provides: besides other things, using it to find an EtW while generating more storm count was something that - for being a newbie with the deck - I was unaware of.

Also, I think I will try to get a Tendrills of Agony and try it out as well, for I see that I need to explore all the interactions the deck could offer, in order to find the better play according to the circunstances during a game.

(About the Leyline of Sanctity issue, yeah, I think I'll pass them for now and stick to the other tools that don't hinder our mulligans/draws too much.)


One other question: at the game store where I intend to play the deck, there is a player who always plays with MUD. If I ever get paired against him, would this match up be an auto-loss for Belcher? How should I play it?

(Would only 1x Shattering Spree and/or 1x Hull Breach on the SB be enough to have an actual chance against MUD?)

walker
05-08-2013, 10:42 PM
MUD is not a good matchup, but it's far from an autoloss. I don't have a ton of experience with this matchup, but I'll share my thoughts. Obviously if you win the roll hopefully you can combo turn 1. If you have to pass the turn play out all your petals, LEDs and chrome moxes first to avoid chalice on 0 stopping you. If you are facing down a chalice you can still cast spells to generate storm and use spirit guides to generate mana. Trinisphere is annoying but seething songs cast from spirit guides can can power a belcher kill. It's definitely a tough match but if you're aware of how you need to play around their hate then you'll be able to make better mulligan decisions etc.

TraxDaMax
05-08-2013, 11:04 PM
Great primer! Excellent information.
How do you feel about putting Recross the Paths in the Kill Conditions section? It seems like there's only one guy who runs Recross, which is too bad because it's a very sweet build. Maybe it could see more play and refinement if it's more prominently featured.

Our playtesting group has been playing the Recross the Path version ever since we heard of it :)

andrebonotto
05-15-2013, 01:27 PM
MUD is not a good matchup, but it's far from an autoloss...

Thanks for your tips.

...

DECKBUILDING:


I think I'll play the regular RG list with minor modifications:

MD:
-4x Manamorphose
+4x Pyretic Ritual

...and, at the moment, this sideboard:



1x ETW
1x Grapeshot (or in it's place maybe Pyroclasm, for I'm a little afraid of running into Canonists; and if by chance I happen to face the TES/ANT player, I could have a chance to kill his guys, if he goes the ETW route)
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
4x Carpet of Flowers
4x Autumn's Veil
1x Forest
1x Sylvain Library
1x Mirri's Guile


SIDEBOARDING AGAINST DIFFERENT MATCH UPS:

I'm a little hesitant, though, regarding sideboarding. (I did read about this matter on the Primer, but since it assumes one is playing the stock version with Pyroblasts and Xantid Swarms, I'm not sure if sideboarding is exactly the same here...)


Like, for instance, would you guys side in all 4xCarpet + 4xVeil against any decks running blue? Or only against specific ones - Which ones? What would you side out, then?

Besides decks running discards, would you side in Library/Guile against any other decks? Which ones? What would you side out, then?

And if you face Stoneblade or BUG, would you side in almost everything (4x Carpet, 4x Veil, Library, Guile)? What would you side out, then?

(And, only to make sure, is there any situation on which you would side in the Forest, besides MU's running Wastelands?)


...

When siding against blue, I'm tending to cut all the Pyretic Rituals (since they're redundant with Desperate Rituals) for Carpet of Flowers, and all the Seething Songs (since they need greater prior mana investment to do their jobs; and against blue, one does not want to commit his mana/cards "unwarranted") for Autumn's Veils. Or would it be better to take out the G.Probes instead of something?

On siding out against discard, would it be better to cut two S.Songs, two P.Rituals, or one of each (to bring in Library/Guile)?
I'm tending toward cutting two S.Songs, since if they disrupt my hand, the P.Rituals are easier to cast afterwards...

walker
05-15-2013, 03:07 PM
@andrebonotto- your sideboard inclinations seem good. Just practice until you feel comfortable and find what works for you. It will take some experimentation to create your sideboard/sideboard plans. I personally never side out probe, the information is very valuable.

Autumn's Veil is garbage. It looks good on paper because it reminds you of silence... but it's far from silence since they can still cast Mindbreak Trap, the card that hoses you the hardest. I tried veil many times, and sometimes it's good, sometimes it's better than pyroblast, but the fact that it does nothing vs trap makes it too narrow. I learned the hard way and I swore I'd never play veil again. Pyro has the additional utility of killing problem blue permanents like jace, you can even gamble against a blind counterbalance in a desperate situation.

I haven't tried guile, I play 2 sylvans in my sideboard. If anyone's tried guile I'd love to hear feedback for that card. I'm inclined to think the advantage drawing extra cards makes sylvan much better than guile. The extra mana seems negligable in most situations. If it resolves you can dig for whatever you need. If it's countered, it doesn't matter as much post board since you have forest and carpet to make more mana. In my experience sylvan often gets countered (which is one of it's main functions).

Regarding shattering spree / reverent silence / hull breach- I took these out a long time ago because it's just too narrow. Having the cards to win is already tough, but burning mana + a wincon and having mana + another wincon leftover is really unlikely. Has anyone else come to this conclusion?

ahg113
05-15-2013, 05:08 PM
I haven't tried guile, I play 2 sylvans in my sideboard. If anyone's tried guile I'd love to hear feedback for that card. I'm inclined to think the advantage drawing extra cards makes sylvan much better than guile. The extra mana seems negligable in most situations. If it resolves you can dig for whatever you need. If it's countered, it doesn't matter as much post board since you have forest and carpet to make more mana. In my experience sylvan often gets countered (which is one of it's main functions).

Regarding shattering spree / reverent silence / hull breach- I took these out a long time ago because it's just too narrow. Having the cards to win is already tough, but burning mana + a wincon and having mana + another wincon leftover is really unlikely. Has anyone else come to this conclusion?

I generally agree with you @walker.

Regards to Guile v. Library- I play Guile due to not having Library, but the ability to draw extra cards is so much more important than being a mana less. While I would definitely not leave home with either Library > Guile. One would be hard pressed to find a reason why Guile would be better.

The SB cards that aren't wincons- m'eh, it's a local metacall decision. I usually haven't used them, and sometimes they've just been the nuts. I played an Affinity player, who burped his hand faster, and walked into a shattering spree bonanza, that felt good, and should be considered "living the dream." But I would agree they're more trap cards than anything else. Maybe a pyroclasm/grapeshot, hull breach/Reverent Silence, and shattering spree, no more than a combination of those three, if that.

Buckjunt
05-19-2013, 11:32 AM
After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list. I have made it to where the main functions optimally in terms of the first 7 cards with the goal of maximizing faster kills. This included cutting a wish (i draw too many multiples), a land grant (same), and adding grim monolith in there places, thus adding more odds of cantripping into a usable ramp spell. I also took these sorceries and put them in my modified wishboard, further optimizing my first 7. The extra wish in the side allows me to utilize double seething song hands and the like, where i cannot produce black mana, so i can still up my storm count when past in flames won't do it. Land grant allows me to keep awkward hands that can produce 5 mana and i have a wish and belcher/EtW. Not only does this enable these hands, but ups the storm count with etw and makes belcher auto kill on activation! The synergy is too good to pass up, along with smoothing out hands...I am surprised nobody has tried it before. Also, trash for treasure allows us to keep hands with wish, leds and belcher, as long as we have a mox or monolith (more synergy by adding these to the list). It is narrow, but it does turn an auto-mulligan into an auto-win. I have space for these because i don't like siding in a lot, i feel it hurts the decks consistency. I side in 3 xantid swarms and guttural response against blue on the draw, and guttural and 3 chancellor on the play. I prefer chancellor for the fact it doesn't use any other resources to use, also coming in handy when expecting turn 1 chalices or explosives, thoughtseizes and the like. Guttural is there to be a medium between play/draw as i only have the room for 1 card and i like that any mana source will cast it, optimizing effectiveness.



Artifact: 18
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

Instant: 12
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

Land: 1
1x Taiga

Sorcery: 17
3x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame

Side Board:
1x Burning Wish
3x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Guttural Response
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Land Grant
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Trash for Treasure
3x Xantid Swarm

astormbrewing
05-19-2013, 12:13 PM
After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list. I have made it to where the main functions optimally in terms of the first 7 cards with the goal of maximizing faster kills. This included cutting a wish (i draw too many multiples), a land grant (same), and adding grim monolith in there places, thus adding more odds of cantripping into a usable ramp spell. I also took these sorceries and put them in my modified wishboard, further optimizing my first 7. The extra wish in the side allows me to utilize double seething song hands and the like, where i cannot produce black mana, so i can still up my storm count when past in flames won't do it. Land grant allows me to keep awkward hands that can produce 5 mana and i have a wish and belcher/EtW. Not only does this enable these hands, but ups the storm count with etw and makes belcher auto kill on activation! The synergy is too good to pass up, along with smoothing out hands...I am surprised nobody has tried it before. Also, trash for treasure allows us to keep hands with wish, leds and belcher, as long as we have a mox or monolith (more synergy by adding these to the list). It is narrow, but it does turn an auto-mulligan into an auto-win. I have space for these because i don't like siding in a lot, i feel it hurts the decks consistency. I side in 3 xantid swarms and guttural response against blue on the draw, and guttural and 3 chancellor on the play. I prefer chancellor for the fact it doesn't use any other resources to use, also coming in handy when expecting turn 1 chalices or explosives, thoughtseizes and the like. Guttural is there to be a medium between play/draw as i only have the room for 1 card and i like that any mana source will cast it, optimizing effectiveness.



Artifact: 18
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

Instant: 12
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

Land: 1
1x Taiga

Sorcery: 17
3x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame

Side Board:
1x Burning Wish
3x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x Guttural Response
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Land Grant
1x Past in Flames
1x Trash for Treasure
3x Xantid Swarm

Your mainboard 60 is almost identical to what I'm playing, though I'm +1 Land Grant and -1 Chrome Mox. I could see having a Land Grant in the sideboard as being beneficial.

Chancellor of the Annex is interesting, but I don't like it. I also don't see the point of Guttural Response when you can play Pyroblast. The fact that you can play Guttural with green mana seems less valuable than being able to (possibly) destroy a Counterbalance or Delver.

Buckjunt
05-19-2013, 12:21 PM
Your mainboard 60 is almost identical to what I'm playing, though I'm +1 Land Grant and -1 Chrome Mox. I could see having a Land Grant in the sideboard as being beneficial.

Chancellor of the Annex is interesting, but I don't like it. I also don't see the point of Guttural Response when you can play Pyroblast. The fact that you can play Guttural with green mana seems less valuable than being able to (possibly) destroy a Counterbalance or Delver.

I have been on the fence on cutting a mox, but it is a hard source. Chancellor is a personal choice, I don't expect everyone to like it, but it works well for me. As for pyroblast, i have NEVER destroyed a counterbalance with one. Ever. Any time i would target it, counterbalance itself counters it. So i opted for the spell i could cast more reliably.

andrebonotto
05-20-2013, 06:37 PM
@ walker / ahg113 :


Autumn's veil vs. Pyroblast:

Interesting. I was not aware of this tricky MB Trap interaction, - i.e. that it can indeed 'counter' our spells disregarding of Autumn's Veil protection, by the fact that it is technically not countering, but exiling them.

(Now I understand why someone was siding in Traps to 'counter' the Elfball player's Emrakul.)

By the one hand, this makes me feel like playing the Pyroblasts. But, on the other hand, I assume that decks that would play Trap are not blue decks, since blue decks already have their protection against us. Thus, if not playing against a blue deck, I assume we would not side in the Veils/Pyroblasts, right? If it is the case, the Veil 'breach' to Traps could be considered quite non-relevant, right?

(Or, on the contrary, after seeing Traps on G2 against any decks, it would be correct to side in Pyroblasts? How are your experiences on this matter?)


Sylvan Library vs. Mirri's Guile:

I guess you're right on this. I'll swap the Guile for the second Library, because of it's card drawing ability.

Also, do you side in the Libraries against blue decks too, or only against discard?

Buckjunt
05-20-2013, 09:35 PM
I still advocate guttural response, it does what you want from pyroblast, but can be cast off of ESG

ahg113
05-20-2013, 10:45 PM
Sylvan Library vs. Mirri's Guile:

I guess you're right on this. I'll swap the Guile for the second Library, because of it's card drawing ability.

Also, do you side in the Libraries against blue decks too, or only against discard?

I would side in Libraries against discard and blue decks. My first desire to play Mirri's Guile was to counter the lock of Jace and fateseal. In a game you don't expect to win within the first or second turn, Library allows you to rebuild for that sudden kill, rather than pray your deck is shuffled with luck and slow drawing the number of critical spells. Decks with Jace will typically let you draw cards again (be aware there'll be more answers to fight through as well.)

Buckjunt
05-21-2013, 01:05 AM
I would side in Libraries against discard and blue decks. My first desire to play Mirri's Guile was to counter the lock of Jace and fateseal. In a game you don't expect to win within the first or second turn, Library allows you to rebuild for that sudden kill, rather than pray your deck is shuffled with luck and slow drawing the number of critical spells. Decks with Jace will typically let you draw cards again (be aware there'll be more answers to fight through as well.)

Library is what I would run. Paired with carpet, you have good late game.

andrebonotto
05-21-2013, 12:29 PM
Hmmm... I had completely forgot about Jace and fateseal and was only considering the extra relevant draws to surpass the quantity of counterspells. It seems even more interesting now.

Against RUG Threshold, though, boarding in the Libraries seems a bit risky to me, since the lifeloss from the drawing might be an issue, for they can put us on a real clock.

...

@ Buckjunt:

Despite the more flexible mana requirement from the latter, that you pointed, I'm actually prefering Pyroblasts over Guttural Responses because a dead Pyroblast in hand could become a somehow usefull card if used to increase storm count.

Buckjunt
05-21-2013, 01:06 PM
True. I had actually forgotten that point.

nudon
05-23-2013, 03:03 AM
With the new legend rule, maybe mox opal + grim monolith can make this deck more consistent. petal, mox, diamond, belcher, monolith, opal = 24 artifacts

Buckjunt
05-23-2013, 03:12 AM
If you do a number crunch, you will find its still not viable.

Bahamuth
05-23-2013, 03:32 AM
If you do a number crunch, you will find its still not viable.

There is absolutely no way you can do anything to calculate if it's viable or not.

Buckjunt
05-23-2013, 08:11 AM
Its called math. You just need to find the odds of drawing a mox with 2 other artifacts, and belcher doesn't count because you usually need belcher for metalcraft to cast itself. Having that many artifacts will impact the effectiveness of chrome mox as well. So yeah, there is. Also, I have tested it personally, it is just too inconsistent.

Bahamuth
05-23-2013, 12:41 PM
Its called math. You just need to find the odds of drawing a mox with 2 other artifacts, and belcher doesn't count because you usually need belcher for metalcraft to cast itself. Having that many artifacts will impact the effectiveness of chrome mox as well. So yeah, there is. Also, I have tested it personally, it is just too inconsistent.

I know what math is, I use it daily. So you calculate the probability of drawing Mox+2 artifacts. Now what? You don't know anything. Do you include Manamorphose? Because Manamorphose will situationally give you a higher probability of getting another artifact. Do you take into account that you cannot always cast Monolith without Mox Opal mana? No, you don't. Even if you were to find some kind of probability taking all such factors into account, then what does that tell you? Absolutely nothing. You have nothing to compare it against, except your own judgements like "Oh, well, that sounds pretty low". I didn't even mention the fact that a mana source that remains in play can be much more valuable than one that doesn't.

Buckjunt
05-23-2013, 05:45 PM
Obviously reusable sources are ideal, but its still not going to have metalcraft consistently. And mentioning monolith only hurt your argument. And wouldn't manamorphose be the first thing you cut?

Bahamuth
05-24-2013, 03:01 AM
You don't understand my point. My point is that you cannot say for sure that running Mox/Monolith is a bad plan. Saying that you won't get metalcraft consistently is a moot point. It's possible that it's fine to occasionally not have metalcraft if the upside is big enough in the cases you do have metalcraft.

I hope you see that mentioning Monolith does not hurt my argument. On what basis would Manamorphose be the first thing you cut?

astormbrewing
05-24-2013, 08:20 AM
Rather than theorizing, why doesn't someone create a list, proxy it, and goldfish a ton to see if it's reliable? If the math is too complex, experiment.

Buckjunt
05-24-2013, 08:20 PM
@ bahamuth: Do you read what you type? The entire point the deck exists is because of consistency. Saying metalcraft is moot is absolutely absurd. Secondly, you said yourself there will be hands that you will have monolith and cannot cast it because you need Metalcraft. This would be what you mentioned we need to consider, so making a point against yourself is...counterproductive. I hope YOU see this.
And I am beginning to think you haven't actually play the deck if you honestly need to ask why manamorphose would be the first cut.

As for sleeving up a list, I have. I stated this. I tried a few different builds but would draw too many dead hands.

Bahamuth
05-25-2013, 06:20 AM
Saying metalcraft is moot is absolutely absurd.

Since you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say, I'll make it clear by ad absurdum.

Let's say Mox Opal requires metalcraft, but instead of a single mana, it would tap for 5 mana. Now, your argument would be that we wouldn't run the card because you think it would hurt consistency. I'd say we would absolutely run that card, because, even if there are some cases where we miss Metalcraft, the upside of the cases where you do have metalcraft is way too big.

Now obviously, Mox Opal doesn't tap for 5 mana, but it does tap for 1 and is a sustainable source. All I am saying is that you cannot immediately say that running Mox Opal is bad. You seem to think I'm saying you should run Mox Opal. I'm not. I'm saying it's a real possibility.


Secondly, you said yourself there will be hands that you will have monolith and cannot cast it because you need Metalcraft. This would be what you mentioned we need to consider, so making a point against yourself is...counterproductive. I hope YOU see this.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. The fact that you can't play Monolith at times is a relevant point, but it doesn't instantly mean running Mox Opal is a bad idea. It's just something you have to take into account.


And I am beginning to think you haven't actually play the deck if you honestly need to ask why manamorphose would be the first cut.

I can say for a fact that I have at least goldfished Belcher more than anyone here. I have a program that can goldfish Belcher for me, and the results of that are telling me that there's no real reason to cut Manamorphose.

Buckjunt
05-25-2013, 08:52 AM
Obviously bad hands will happen regardless of the build or deck. But having a card that is dead more often than not is bad, let alone the fact that we are talking about a deck that is trying to go off turn 1. I have personally attempted many variants including the mox, and it was not nearly as consistent as it needed to be. If we found room for at least another playset of a different artifact than maybe, but nothing viable comes to mind. I thought everflowing chalice could be cute, being able to use lions eyes to multikick it. Have not tested that, but i wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe other people have had better results, but personally opal has been bad.

As for monolith, i have no problem with it, i currently run 2 in my build. I was simply pointing out that you had unintentionally maid a point against your idea of using opal by suggesting a scenario where the mox is needed to cast the monolith but you need the monolith for metalcraft.

And on manamorphose, what would you suggest cutting to fit in opals? Manamorphose is easily the weakest card in any given build with the exception of maybe street wraith.

And you aren't the only person on the interwebs who knows how to download programs (or make them) more magic. Please show proof that you have goldfished this deck more than anyone else here. You should be able to, since you know this as a fact. I thought you were ending the absurdity.

Bahamuth
05-25-2013, 11:11 AM
Obviously bad hands will happen regardless of the build or deck. But having a card that is dead more often than not is bad, let alone the fact that we are talking about a deck that is trying to go off turn 1. I have personally attempted many variants including the mox, and it was not nearly as consistent as it needed to be. If we found room for at least another playset of a different artifact than maybe, but nothing viable comes to mind. I thought everflowing chalice could be cute, being able to use lions eyes to multikick it. Have not tested that, but i wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe other people have had better results, but personally opal has been bad.

As for monolith, i have no problem with it, i currently run 2 in my build. I was simply pointing out that you had unintentionally maid a point against your idea of using opal by suggesting a scenario where the mox is needed to cast the monolith but you need the monolith for metalcraft.

I'm fine with your statement that you have tested various configurations with Mox Opals, and found them to be bad. I think it's probably likely that including Mox Opal is the wrong decision, but remember that I was initially just responding to your statement about doing the math on the inclusion of Mox Opal, which I disagree with.


And on manamorphose, what would you suggest cutting to fit in opals? Manamorphose is easily the weakest card in any given build with the exception of maybe street wraith.
I don't know what the consensus is on lists nowadays (I'll look through this thread a bit), but as an example:

4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Petal
4 Led
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite
4 SSG
4 ESG
4 Tinder Wall
4 Grant
1 Taiga

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mamamorphose

4 Belcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Wish

I'm not running Seething Songs here, because I'm under the impression it's a strong card in goldfishes, but a bad card in actual magic where my opponent might have counterspells.



And you aren't the only person on the interwebs who knows how to download programs (or make them) more magic. Please show proof that you have goldfished this deck more than anyone else here.

I don't know what that first sentence means, but anyway, I wrote this program myself and to my knowledge, there's no one else who has done this, or at least who has made this public. Here's the source code:

http://codepad.org/fqdeHwVQ

It's probably unreadable, but I doubt anyone would bother anyway. In any case, the program takes quite long to run, so I can't just instantly reproduce results. Here are some results I got when I wrote it a while back.

Keep in mind that I am 'counting' EtW for less than 10 tokens or dropping Belcher and saying go as a 'win'. That might be the wrong term, so take it as you will.


List:
8 Pyretic Ritual
4 Petal
4 Led
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite
4 SSG
4 ESG
4 Tinder Wall
4 Grant
1 Taiga

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mamamorphose

4 Belcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Wish

Results:

7 cards: 10000 games
(Belcher Win, 12+ Tokens, 12- Tokens, Belcher Drop)
(1048, 1934, 1622, 1525)

Total wins = 6129 (including just dropping belcher)=61.29%

6 cards: 10000 games
(Belcher Win, 12+ Tokens, 12- Tokens, Belcher Drop)
(269, 781, 1254, 1300)

Total wins = 3605 = 36.05%

5 cards: 10000 games
(Belcher Win, 12+ Tokens, 12- Tokens, Belcher Drop)
(6, 147, 427, 493)

Total wins = 1073 = 10.73%

4 cards: 10000 games
(Belcher Win, 12+ Tokens, 12- Tokens, Belcher Drop)
(0, 1, 6, 9)

Total wins = 16 = 0.16%

Grand total win% including mulligans
77.93%


I thought you were ending the absurdity.

40k games. I think I'm pretty safe.

astormbrewing
05-31-2013, 08:22 PM
Playing the deck Sunday at SCG Baltimore. If I have the time (and it's worth it), I'll write a report. Otherwise I'll just tell you how much I failed.

feline
06-02-2013, 05:44 PM
astormbrewing, the post above this one I think, is currently 5-1, 3 rounds to go.

-edit-

last round!

astormbrewing
06-03-2013, 06:18 AM
astormbrewing, the post above this one I think, is currently 5-1, 3 rounds to go.

-edit-

last round!

Yep, started 5-1 yesterday, then fell hard to 5-4. Tough match-ups, tough opponents. I'll write up a report later today.

Edit: Had time before work to write up the report. View it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26169-The-ups-and-downs-of-a-new-Belcher-(67th-at-SCG-Baltimore)&p=728930#post728930).

GoldenCid
06-08-2013, 04:50 PM
Yep, started 5-1 yesterday, then fell hard to 5-4. Tough match-ups, tough opponents. I'll write up a report later today.

Edit: Had time before work to write up the report. View it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26169-The-ups-and-downs-of-a-new-Belcher-(67th-at-SCG-Baltimore)&p=728930#post728930).

Congrats anyway!! I like the 11 wincond list more than yours but it worked very well thoguht.
What can you tell us about chancerllor? was it good as 3 off in the side?

Moreover....gaddock teeg if we get slow...its gg...:eek:

GC

astormbrewing
06-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Congrats anyway!! I like the 11 wincond list more than yours but it worked very well thoguht.
What can you tell us about chancerllor? was it good as 3 off in the side?

Moreover....gaddock teeg if we get slow...its gg...:eek:

GC

As I said in my report, I wasn't very pleased with Chancellor of the Annex. I think the Sylvan Library plan is probably better.

Gaddock Teeg is definitely a problem, but it's why I kept Pyroclasm in the wishboard.

GoldenCid
06-09-2013, 07:15 PM
As I said in my report, I wasn't very pleased with Chancellor of the Annex. I think the Sylvan Library plan is probably better.

Gaddock Teeg is definitely a problem, but it's why I kept Pyroclasm in the wishboard.

The problem with chancellor is that you must have it in your opening and go off next turn as late. Yeah....library or mirri could be choices of perpetual fuel...i dont know.

Moreover i'm running a monolith verion (4 of and no mox) and it's meh...it's good as a "colorless ritual" but it is not wowowowww....sometimes is cool sometimes it sucks...I dislike mox (chrome) too but i think those are our best options. I thought about a split but i sounds poor to me. Has anybody thought on mox opal. 3 chrome / 1 opal maybe? 3 monolith / 1 opal?
Opal has no card disadvantange but i needs metalcraft.... 4 belcher, 4 petal, 4 led + 3 additional artifacts...could it be viable??


GC.

astormbrewing
06-10-2013, 06:53 AM
The problem with chancellor is that you must have it in your opening and go off next turn as late. Yeah....library or mirri could be choices of perpetual fuel...i dont know.

Moreover i'm running a monolith verion (4 of and no mox) and it's meh...it's good as a "colorless ritual" but it is not wowowowww....sometimes is cool sometimes it sucks...I dislike mox (chrome) too but i think those are our best options. I thought about a split but i sounds poor to me. Has anybody thought on mox opal. 3 chrome / 1 opal maybe? 3 monolith / 1 opal?
Opal has no card disadvantange but i needs metalcraft.... 4 belcher, 4 petal, 4 led + 3 additional artifacts...could it be viable??


GC.

You can't really include Belcher in your totals toward Metalcraft, because more often than not we'd like to use Mox Opal prior to casting Belcher (or even just going the EtW or BWish plan). I don't think it is that good.

I was very happy with 3 Chrome Mox and 2 Grim Monolith. 3 seems like a sweet number for Chrome Mox, and I'd never want to play more than 2 Grim Monolith.

andrebonotto
06-10-2013, 08:05 AM
After lots of goldfishing, reading and asking on this forum, and watching any videos I could find... at about two weeks ago I finally brought this deck to a sanctioned tournament.

There were 32 players there, and my games were as it follows:

ROUND 1: vs. "Mono-B Control" = 1-2
ROUND 2: vs. "UB Tezzerator" = 2-0
ROUND 3: vs. “Dream Halls w/ Lab Maniac” = 0-2
ROUND 4: vs. “Merfolks” = 0-2
ROUND 5: vs. "Esper Stoneblade" = 2-0

Results:
• W-L-D: 2-3-0
• Final standing: 19th


Awful performance, greatly due to my lack of experience with the deck, which made me do lots of misplays (like playing a Taiga from my hand after I Probed my Merfolk oponent and forgetting that I had seen a Wasteland on his hand;), and maybe a little bit due to my 'bad luck' on the pairings, which made me face basically an enormous quantity of discard and countermagic.

I even got screwed because of one deck playing 1x Mindbreak Trap maindeck and having it on his initial hand vs. my T1 Belcher play (he didn't know me neither what was I playing); or another one that draw his maindeck Echoing Decay on T2, right after me EtW'ing for 12 on T1(same thing here)!

Well, there were some very frustrating plays there... - but, of course, some experience being gained through my mistakes.

...

I played a 'stock' list with this SB:


4x Pyroblast
4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Sylvan Library
1x Forest
1x EtW
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence (I chose this over Hull Breach only to possibly gain an edge over a Enchantress player over there, should I ever get paired against him)

When SB'ing, on some of the MU's where I bring in the Carpets and/or Libraries, I got a little 'color-screwed' for having one of them on my starting hand and not being able to cast it right away. (I maybe sided out 2-3x Land Grant, which lowered a little my green spell count)

Has this ever been an issue for anyone here?

...

Also, if you happen to have your combo disrupted, do you:

a) Try to combo again as soon as you draw the missing pieces back (and try to not give your op. the chance to draw more cards and find another counter)?

b) ...Or do you prefer to try to take your time, gather some more 'spare cards', and assume you'll have other spells countered mid-combo again (however, by doing so, letting your oponnent more likely draw into his conterspells)?

(I found out the hard way that the 'b' route is particularly very difficult to achieve against Merfolk, because his clock is pretty fast.)

WorldslayerGuy
06-17-2013, 07:47 PM
Finished in the Top 8 of the monthly Mythic Games Legacy tournament her in Elmira. Here's my list:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

2 Mirri's Guile
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Past in Flames
1 Reanimate
2 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm

And here's my matchups (only 17 people, so five rounds with a cut to the Top 8)

Round 1: Miracles Lost 2-1
Round 2: CheeriOs Won 2-0
Round 3: Miracles Won 2-0
Round 4: Goblins Won 2-0
Round 5: ID

Quarterfinals: BUG Lost 2-1


The mainboard Mirri's Guile turned out to be only relevant after game 1. Planning to move it to the sideboard, probably dropping the Chancellors. Planning to test Grim Monolith in it's place.

I've found the best way to deal with control match-ups is just to not go all in. All the games I won versus Blue decks, I was able to go for it without totally emptying my hand, being able to try again a few turns later.

feline
06-17-2013, 08:06 PM
Grats on the placing, I don't know where this deck has gone lately at larger events, it's seemingly disappeared from the top tables over the past couple months where before it was getting a top 8/16 rather occasionally.

HammafistRoob
06-23-2013, 04:06 PM
Good sideboard card from M14 possibly? I don't play this deck but it might be a good option here.

Young Pyromancer. 1R

Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, you may put a 1/1 token onto the battlefield.
p/t=2/1

Shawon
06-23-2013, 04:12 PM
Eh, the little guy doesn't count artifacts and doesn't count anything played before it. At least Storm Entity does.

HammafistRoob
06-23-2013, 04:23 PM
Eh, the little guy doesn't count artifacts and doesn't count anything played before it. At least Storm Entity does.

Huh, forgot about him. But I honestly think Pyromancer is much stronger since he makes you extra bodies everytime you attempt to chain spells while he's in play. Ritual, Ritual, Empty is now 9 1/1's. He makes recovering from tragic gamestates more of a possiblity.

Shawon
06-23-2013, 04:45 PM
Huh, forgot about him. But I honestly think Pyromancer is much stronger since he makes you extra bodies everytime you attempt to chain spells while he's in play. Ritual, Ritual, Empty is now 9 1/1's. He makes recovering from tragic gamestates more of a possiblity.

But you're talking about Belcher here. The deck doesn't reach a threshold at two mana: it has to spend mana to cast more rituals/sources. Casting some mana sources and then casting Young Pyromancer might kill your combo chain since you have to cast Young Pyromancer as early as you can, unlike EtW. Spending a first turn casting Young Pyromancer and going off next turn doesn't seem that stellar either if you had to generate two spells to cast Young Pyromancer, such as Grant + mana spell. Another thing, Pyromancer still depends on tokens that are summoning sick. It doesn't circumvent the same hate that targets Empty the Warrens like EE or Engineered Plague.

Fortunae
07-01-2013, 04:21 AM
Huh, forgot about him. But I honestly think Pyromancer is much stronger since he makes you extra bodies everytime you attempt to chain spells while he's in play. Ritual, Ritual, Empty is now 9 1/1's. He makes recovering from tragic gamestates more of a possiblity.

Pyromancer doesn't count spells placed on the stack via Storm- they have to actually be cast. It's a good thought, but there are betting things to be doing in my opinion.

Final Fortune
07-01-2013, 09:06 AM
Been running a list that cuts Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond and Seething Song in favor of Serum Powder and Grim Monolith, originally as a budget consideration but now as a serious consideration after gold fishing it and realizing that Serum Powder and ~8 win conditions is consistent.

4 Serum Powder
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Grim Monolith
3 Chancellor of the Annex

I think the idea has a lot of merrit to it because you avoid the problem of having Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond and Pryoblast esq spells in hand vs blue in your post-board games and between drawing 7 cards, mulliganing to 6 cards and hitting Serum Powder hands you pretty consistently go off without having to put awkward cards in your deck like Seething Song to hit the 6 mana threshold for Wish->Warrens.

phazonmutant
07-01-2013, 03:52 PM
Been running a list that cuts Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond and Seething Song in favor of Serum Powder and Grim Monolith, originally as a budget consideration but now as a serious consideration after gold fishing it and realizing that Serum Powder and ~8 win conditions is consistent.

4 Serum Powder
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Grim Monolith
3 Chancellor of the Annex

I think the idea has a lot of merrit to it because you avoid the problem of having Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond and Pryoblast esq spells in hand vs blue in your post-board games and between drawing 7 cards, mulliganing to 6 cards and hitting Serum Powder hands you pretty consistently go off without having to put awkward cards in your deck like Seething Song to hit the 6 mana threshold for Wish->Warrens.

People have had success without Burning Wish, but I'm surprised that your build even functions... I haven't goldfished it so I definitely can't say with certainty that it's right out, but when I look at that list I see that you've cut 7 net R cards to pin under Chrome Mox, instead of 4 +3s and 4 +2s you have 8 +1s (Grim Monolith and Chancellor are the subs, right?), and you have a 1-of that you can't really afford to Serum Powder (Taiga). Like...how in the world could that improve the consistency of getting to 7 mana for Belcher? Further, the adds on the whole don't help add to storm (removing Wish, Chancellor).

Have you taken it to a tournament to try it out?

WorldslayerGuy
07-01-2013, 06:44 PM
Personally, I prefer a Wish build, because I think it makes the deck more flexible. But, as phazonmuant said, Wishless builds do have some success. Anyway...

Not entirely sold on Grim Monolith, and definitely not as a four-of. I've found in testing it's really bad in multiples, especially given that it makes colorless mana only. As for Serum Powder, I agree with phazonmuant. It just doesn't seem like it will increase consistency, and that's always been this deck's strong point. That being said, results don't lie, and if this build has been working well, I'd love to here about it.

HammafistRoob
07-02-2013, 01:02 AM
Pyromancer doesn't count spells placed on the stack via Storm- they have to actually be cast. It's a good thought, but there are betting things to be doing in my opinion.

I never said he did. Betting things to be doing eh?

Final Fortune
07-02-2013, 04:30 AM
People have had success without Burning Wish, but I'm surprised that your build even functions... I haven't goldfished it so I definitely can't say with certainty that it's right out, but when I look at that list I see that you've cut 7 net R cards to pin under Chrome Mox, instead of 4 +3s and 4 +2s you have 8 +1s (Grim Monolith and Chancellor are the subs, right?), and you have a 1-of that you can't really afford to Serum Powder (Taiga). Like...how in the world could that improve the consistency of getting to 7 mana for Belcher? Further, the adds on the whole don't help add to storm (removing Wish, Chancellor).

Have you taken it to a tournament to try it out?

Serum Powder and 1xTaiga isn't a real problem, if you ever draw your Serum Powder and Taiga in the same hand you can just take a natural mulligan. You could use a 2nd Taiga I suppose, but I doubt the number of misfires on Belcher would be worth it. There are more than enough Red sources for Chrome Mox, but you can always play with Pyroblast or Guttural Response in the MD if you want to save SB space or just throw Seething Song back in.

Disregarding Belcher activations, mana sources lower on the curve like Chancellor of the Tangle and Grim Monolith are better than mana sources higher on the curve like Seething Song because you're trying to reach 4 mana to cast your threat instead of 6 mana to tutor for your threat or 7 mana to cast and activate your threat on the same turn. I'm sure not having LED sets the deck back on its average turn for activating Belcher, but short of losing the combo mirror (which frankly Belcher already does) I don't think it's really detrimental or that people who cut Chrome Mox aren't doing the same thing (for some reason people don't understand how important that card is for Belcher activations)

I mean, if a deck with Serum Powder essentially gives you a free tutor for Belcher and Warrens then you're playing a faster deck than with Burning Wish regardless of LED, and an arguably more consistent deck because you don't get yourself into those 6 card hand spots where you have to have either a LED or Seething Song.

You'll wait longer to activate Belcher and mulligan to 6 more, but the deck has no win conditions that require 6 mana and doesn't re-draw your opponent into counter spells. The real interesting thing tho' is that because the deck doesn't have LED or re-draws for your opponent, you can potentially be more resilient to counter magic with Pyroblast and Guttural Response post-board.

I'm not saying this is the end all, be all of Belcher because obviously Serum Powder has its own issues, but it does seem to work in gold fishing and I think it's another viable direction to look at. I've mostly played post-board games with RUG in order to figure out how having Serum Powder, 8 win conditions and ~7 counter spells works in that match up. It's possible this could just be part of a SBing plan where you drop Wish/LED for Serum Powder and counter spells post-board.

feline
07-18-2013, 02:30 AM
This deck has really fallen off the radar lately, not since Vegas a few months ago has it even performed at the Starcity Open Series. I thought this deck would go up as some people even started putting their Force of Will's in their sideboards in place for more Discard.

Dissolution
07-18-2013, 02:52 AM
Inspired by this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25698-Primer-Deck-Belcher&p=727096&viewfull=1#post727096) post by Bahamuth, I set about to create my own version of a Belcher goldfishing program.
Written in C#, it's capable of running 1,000,000 goldfishes in just over 1 minute.

Edit: Got everything coded!

Running a fairly standard list:
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual

4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

After 1 million goldfishes, here's what I found:


37% of the time it just failed. Couldn't produce enough mana or mulliganned to death.
24% of the time it could use Goblin Charbelcher.

62% of those were putting Belcher in play and saying go.
3% of those were activated, but less than 20 damage
34% of those activated and 20+ damage resulted.


37% of the time it could use Empty the Warrens

Bell curve centered on 12 tokens (26%) with 10 tokens (25%) right behind.


Interesting Tidbits:
Replacing Pyretic/Desperate with Gitaxian Probe changed the percentages by less than 1%.
Replacing both with Probe + Street Wraith changed the percentages to 39/23/37 (More failures)
In neither case did I change the mulligan algorithm to account for draw spells.
-T

astormbrewing
07-22-2013, 08:59 AM
Went to SCG Richmond and played in the sole Legacy win-a-box on Sunday. Split the finals with Tin Fins. I played the same deck I listed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26169-The-ups-and-downs-of-a-new-Belcher-(67th-at-SCG-Baltimore)&p=728930#post728930).

Round 1 vs Spanish Inquisition
G1: I keep 7 cards on the play, but I need an additional mana source. I decide to keep and pass the turn. He looks confused, and starts to storm. When he cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I decline to discard my hand and scoop.
G2: I make 12 goblins on the play. He plays Belcher, but hits Bayou as the 10th card. I proceed to win.
G3: He storms, but wiffs on Infernal Contract. I play out Belcher with two permanent mana sources and a Grim Monolith in hand. He draws, passes, and I win.

Round 2 vs Jund
Note: He didn't see my deck, but I watched him play, so I have the information advantage.
G1: I make 14 goblins on the play, he plays a Deathrite Shaman, but fails to find Maelstrom Pulse T2 and I win.
G2: He plays a Bayou and passes, and I sigh that doesn't have Deathrite or discard. I play out Belcher and hold double Land Grant and Lotus Petal in hand. T2 he plays a Deathrite and passes, so I draw Tinder Wall and win.

I drew with Tin Fins. We played for fun and I lost since he won the die roll. He T1'd me both games 1 and 3. I got 18 packs but shipped 6 back to my friend who let me borrow $15 to play. I crack Scavenging Ooze, Garruk, and foil Mutavault from my 12 packs.

Like I said in the past, there is absolutely nothing I would change in my maindeck. It's perfect for how I see the deck.

WorldslayerGuy
07-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Went to SCG Richmond and played in the sole Legacy win-a-box on Sunday. Split the finals with Tin Fins. I played the same deck I listed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26169-The-ups-and-downs-of-a-new-Belcher-(67th-at-SCG-Baltimore)&p=728930#post728930).

Round 1 vs Spanish Inquisition
G1: I keep 7 cards on the play, but I need an additional mana source. I decide to keep and pass the turn. He looks confused, and starts to storm. When he cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I decline to discard my hand and scoop.
G2: I make 12 goblins on the play. He plays Belcher, but hits Bayou as the 10th card. I proceed to win.
G3: He storms, but wiffs on Infernal Contract. I play out Belcher with two permanent mana sources and a Grim Monolith in hand. He draws, passes, and I win.

Round 2 vs Jund
Note: He didn't see my deck, but I watched him play, so I have the information advantage.
G1: I make 14 goblins on the play, he plays a Deathrite Shaman, but fails to find Maelstrom Pulse T2 and I win.
G2: He plays a Bayou and passes, and I sigh that doesn't have Deathrite or discard. I play out Belcher and hold double Land Grant and Lotus Petal in hand. T2 he plays a Deathrite and passes, so I draw Tinder Wall and win.

I drew with Tin Fins. We played for fun and I lost since he won the die roll. He T1'd me both games 1 and 3. I got 18 packs but shipped 6 back to my friend who let me borrow $15 to play. I crack Scavenging Ooze, Garruk, and foil Mutavault from my 12 packs.

Like I said in the past, there is absolutely nothing I would change in my maindeck. It's perfect for how I see the deck.


Congrats on the finish. After seeing success people have had with 10 wincons over 11, I'm going to try cutting an Empty. Not sure what to run in it's place (going to start testing a third Manamorphose, see where it goes from there).

Curious as to what the reasoning behind keeping Lotus Petal in hand vs. Jund is. Seems to me keeping it in hand just opens it up to discard, whereas playing it just means they might Decay it. And if they want to Decay a Lotus petal...more power to them.

astormbrewing
07-22-2013, 07:41 PM
Congrats on the finish. After seeing success people have had with 10 wincons over 11, I'm going to try cutting an Empty. Not sure what to run in it's place (going to start testing a third Manamorphose, see where it goes from there).

Curious as to what the reasoning behind keeping Lotus Petal in hand vs. Jund is. Seems to me keeping it in hand just opens it up to discard, whereas playing it just means they might Decay it. And if they want to Decay a Lotus petal...more power to them.

Cutting an Empty the Warrens? You mean going 4/2 with BWish/EtW? I don't like that at all. I suggest 3/3 with BWish/EtW.

Playing out the Lotus Petal was probably the better choice, honestly. Good catch.

WorldslayerGuy
07-22-2013, 07:56 PM
Cutting an Empty the Warrens? You mean going 4/2 with BWish/EtW? I don't like that at all. I suggest 3/3 with BWish/EtW.

I like maxing out on Wish, personally. In my playing it opens up more explosive turns. I'll try it both configurations and see what works for me.

Ozymandias
07-23-2013, 02:21 AM
Inspired by this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25698-Primer-Deck-Belcher&p=727096&viewfull=1#post727096) post by Bahamuth, I set about to create my own version of a Belcher goldfishing program.
Written in C#, it's capable of running 1,000,000 goldfishes in just over 1 minute.

[LIST]
37% of the time it just failed. Couldn't produce enough mana or mulliganned to death.
24% of the time it could use Goblin Charbelcher.
37% of the time it could use Empty the Warrens

-T

That seems like an insanely high fizzle rate. Are you sure about your code?

Dissolution
07-23-2013, 02:35 AM
That seems like an insanely high fizzle rate. Are you sure about your code?

It's very possible the mulligan decisions or play tree is incorrect. I have walked through around 100 hands and it is doing the math correctly.
Right now, it mulligans until it has a win condition in hand (Wish/Empty/Belcher). I don't have it taking any draw spells (Probe/Wraith/Manamorphose) into account, nor do I have it mulliganning hand with too many win conditions.
Very easy to edit, though, so if anyone wants to write up a 'logic guide' to mulliganning, it would certainly help. Same thing for Chrome Mox imprinting decision trees.

The next change I'm making is for it to be able to determine if the hand can generate enough mana to play it's win condition. After that it's getting it to play multiple turns so I can see about 'drop belcher t1, belch t2' style hands.
-T

Ozymandias
07-23-2013, 03:25 AM
It's very possible the mulligan decisions or play tree is incorrect. I have walked through around 100 hands and it is doing the math correctly.
Right now, it mulligans until it has a win condition in hand (Wish/Empty/Belcher). I don't have it taking any draw spells (Probe/Wraith/Manamorphose) into account, nor do I have it mulliganning hand with too many win conditions.
Very easy to edit, though, so if anyone wants to write up a 'logic guide' to mulliganning, it would certainly help. Same thing for Chrome Mox imprinting decision trees.

The next change I'm making is for it to be able to determine if the hand can generate enough mana to play it's win condition. After that it's getting it to play multiple turns so I can see about 'drop belcher t1, belch t2' style hands.
-T

A few things:
Check 1: Does the hand have a win condition? If not, mulligan.
Check 2: Does the hand have an initial mana source capable of casting its secondary mana sources?
Check 3: If the win condition is Empty the Warrens or Goblin Charbelcher, does the hand have 4 mana? If the win condition is Burning Wish, do you have 6? Assume that your cantrips will draw mana (for mulling purposes). It's also worth noting that you can only count Seething Song if you have 3 other mana, and LED for Bwish purpose after you have 2.
Check 4: If the win condition is ETW, do you generate at least 10 goblins? (Reduce this to 8 after a mulligan)

Top priority of things to imprint on Chrome Mox:
Extra copies of ETW/Burning Wish
Extra copies of Land Grant (If you can still cast your spells.)
Spirit Guides (If you don't need the mana)
Seething Song (if the extra mana this turn is less important than building up to belcher mana next turn
Things to avoid imprinting if possible:
Rite of Flame.

If you can imprint a cantrip on chrome mox instead of casting it, and you will be secrewed if you draw an artifact off the cantrip, IMPRINT THE CANTRIP!

Dissolution
07-23-2013, 04:43 AM
A few things:
Check 1: Does the hand have a win condition? If not, mulligan.
Check 2: Does the hand have an initial mana source capable of casting its secondary mana sources?
Check 3: If the win condition is Empty the Warrens or Goblin Charbelcher, does the hand have 4 mana? If the win condition is Burning Wish, do you have 6? Assume that your cantrips will draw mana (for mulling purposes). It's also worth noting that you can only count Seething Song if you have 3 other mana, and LED for Bwish purpose after you have 2.
Check 4: If the win condition is ETW, do you generate at least 10 goblins? (Reduce this to 8 after a mulligan)


Implemented the first 3 (fourth is going to take time). Slight improvement, showing 35% fail, 24% belcher, 39% empty.
Chrome Mox stuff I have implemented very similar to what you posted, except I think I have it going to aggressive (always imprinting). Going to work on making it able to determine if needs to.
-T

Ozymandias
07-24-2013, 03:26 AM
Implemented the first 3 (fourth is going to take time). Slight improvement, showing 35% fail, 24% belcher, 39% empty.
Chrome Mox stuff I have implemented very similar to what you posted, except I think I have it going to aggressive (always imprinting). Going to work on making it able to determine if needs to.
-T

Interesting. I just goldfished your list 20 times, and I came up with the following sample:
1: 14 goblins
2: 10 goblins
3: Belcher+activate
4: 12 goblins
5: Belcher+pass with mana sournce in hand and board
6: Belcher+pass with 2 mana sources on the board.
7: Belcher+pass with one mana source in hand and 1 on board
8: Mull to 4
9: Mull to 4
10: t1 Belch+activate
11: 14 goblins
12: Mull to 5, cast belcher t2.
13: T1 Belcher, pass with 1 ritual in hand and one on board
14: Belcher, pass
15: Mull to 4, but it was led x2, ritual, bwish. Turn 2 go off.
16: 10 goblins
17: 10 goblins
18: Belcher, pass with ritual in hand and one mana on board.
19: 12 goblins
20: 10 goblins

Obviously, not enough of a sample size to draw any conclusions, but worth looking into.

Can you generate a 20-sample set of belcher hands as text? I would like to see if your program parameters match human goldfishing.

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 03:52 AM
Absolutely I can.
1: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga + Chrome Mox in play.
2: Mull to death
3: Mull to death
4: T1 Belch (52 dmg)
5: T1 drop Belcher, Chrome Mox in play.
6: Mull to 6, Empty for 10 tokens.
7: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga in play.
8: Empty for 12 tokens.
9: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga + Chrome Mox in play.
10: Glitch, kept a bad hand (SSG, Rite, LED x3, Song, Belcher)
11: Glitch here, didn't count that all our initial sources produced only G.
12: T1 Belch (94 dmg)
13: Empty for 12 tokens.
14: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga in play.
15: Empty for 12 tokens.
16: Empty for 10 tokens.
17: Mull to 6, Empty for 10 tokens.
18: Glitch, kept a bad hand (Wish, Mox x2, SSG, Tinder, Rite, Song)
19: Mull to death
20: Empty for 14

Three glitch hands, will be working on those. Had to do with initial calculations of mana, will be fixing as soon as I have the time.
Might have to have it play the hand, if it fails, 'mulligan' and try again.
-T

Bahamuth
07-24-2013, 03:55 AM
In my opinion, it is not a good idea to tell your program how to mulligan, since it introduces a subjective element into the process. Instead, you can let it just keep any hand and combine results from 7 to 4 cards.

Ozymandias
07-24-2013, 04:02 AM
Absolutely I can.
1: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga + Chrome Mox in play.
2: Mull to death
3: Mull to death
4: T1 Belch (52 dmg)
5: T1 drop Belcher, Chrome Mox in play.
6: Mull to 6, Empty for 10 tokens.
7: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga in play.
8: Empty for 12 tokens.
9: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga + Chrome Mox in play.
10: Glitch, kept a bad hand (SSG, Rite, LED x3, Song, Belcher)
11: Glitch here, didn't count that all our initial sources produced only G.
12: T1 Belch (94 dmg)
13: Empty for 12 tokens.
14: T1 drop Belcher, Taiga in play.
15: Empty for 12 tokens.
16: Empty for 10 tokens.
17: Mull to 6, Empty for 10 tokens.
18: Glitch, kept a bad hand (Wish, Mox x2, SSG, Tinder, Rite, Song)
19: Mull to death
20: Empty for 14

Three glitch hands, will be working on those. Had to do with initial calculations of mana, will be fixing as soon as I have the time.
Might have to have it play the hand, if it fails, 'mulligan' and try again.
-T

Might want to try a case-switch structure to implement the mulling algorithm. Treat chrome mox, for mulling purposes, as an IMS that produces no net mana unless there is a redundant win condition, land grant, or cantrip in hand.

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 04:09 AM
In my opinion, it is not a good idea to tell your program how to mulligan, since it introduces a subjective element into the process. Instead, you can let it just keep any hand and combine results from 7 to 4 cards.

You mean have it run every single combination of 4-7 cards in that hand, check the results, and use the 'best'?

Bahamuth
07-24-2013, 04:27 AM
You mean have it run every single combination of 4-7 cards in that hand, check the results, and use the 'best'?

The best of all possible outcomes of a hand. So for instance, the hand

Petal
Rite
Rite
EtW
LED
Belcher
Dwarven Pony

Would result in Belcher + activation. The outcome could also just be: 'do nothing'

How do you make your program run it's hands? I used recursion. So define a function that tries to cast all cards in a hand with the hand and the mana in pool as argument, and that calls itself after it casts a card but with a hand without the card it just cast, and the mana pool accordingly modified.


So here's what I do regarding hands: I run a bunch of hands with 7 cards, 6 cards etc. Call the probability of a win with i cards p_i, then the probability to win is p_7 + (1-p_7)*p_6 + (1-p_7)*(1-p_6)*p_5 etc....

You could also do this for several paths of wins, to make statements such as "I win with EtW in x% of the cases", and from there you could modify lists and compare those percentages. You could also implement conditions to remove hands that win even though you would have mulliganed them. For instance, a hand with 1 Probe and 6 mana is normally a mulligan, but the program might randomly draw a Belcher and win.

This is just how I do it, by no means does that mean it's the best way,.

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 04:36 AM
The best of all possible outcomes of a hand. So for instance, the hand

Petal
Rite
Rite
EtW
LED
Belcher
Dwarven Pony

Would result in Belcher + activation. The outcome could also just be: 'do nothing'

How do you make your program run it's hands? I used recursion. So define a function that tries to cast all cards in a hand with the hand and the mana in pool as argument, and that calls itself after it casts a card but with a hand without the card it just cast, and the mana pool accordingly modified.

I used your program as the base, quite clever. I'm using your LED trick, too.
Mine assigns priorities to the various cards, also keeps track of a manapool. It cycles through the existing hand by order of priority, checking if it can cast the card or not. Some cards have logic in their CanCast() check as well. After a card resolves, it begins again with the lowest priority (how it handles Probe/Manamorphose). It keeps track of where all the cards ends up and logs the exact play sequence and manapool as well.
-T

Bahamuth
07-24-2013, 04:39 AM
I used your program as the base, quite clever. I'm using your LED trick, too.
Mine assigns priorities to the various cards, also keeps track of a manapool. It cycles through the existing hand by order of priority, checking if it can cast the card or not. Some cards have logic in their CanCast() check as well. After a card resolves, it begins again with the lowest priority (how it handles Probe/Manamorphose). It keeps track of where all the cards ends up and logs the exact play sequence and manapool as well.
-T

Okay, that sounds quite a bit more advanced than what I was doing. :)

Anyhow, I purposely avoided assigning priorities because it's another instance of subjectivity. The advantage of a system like that is that it's probably much faster, and by properly assigning the priorities you can probably make errors because of that negligible.

edit: also, you use C-based language, which is probably much faster. I remember it takes me a full night to do 10.000 7 card hands. Any ideas how much faster you are?

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 04:41 AM
Okay, that sounds quite a bit more advanced than what I was doing. :)

Anyhow, I purposely avoided assigning priorities because it's another instance of subjectivity. The advantage of a system like that is that it's probably much faster, and by properly assigning the priorities you can probably make errors because of that negligible.

Yeah, it's why I can run a million goldfishes in about one minute. I was going for a full-logic system, in the sense that I could tell it what to do and have it play perfectly.
I'm going to have to hash the opening hands and save results while it works, so that it can skip hands it already knows how to solve (minus drawing cards). That should speed it up further.
-T

Bahamuth
07-24-2013, 04:43 AM
Yeah, it's why I can run a million goldfishes in about one minute. I was going for a full-logic system, in the sense that I could tell it what to do and have it play perfectly.
I'm going to have to hash the opening hands and save results while it works, so that it can skip hands it already knows how to solve (minus drawing cards). That should speed it up further.
-T
Damn................That's insane.

It would be interesting to find out if it's best to keep hands with x cards, y cantrips and 0 wincons. Maybe you can try that? It might be good to keep hands with 4 mana sources and 3 cantrips for instance.

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 04:53 AM
Damn................That's insane.

It would be interesting to find out if it's best to keep hands with x cards, y cantrips and 0 wincons. Maybe you can try that? It might be good to keep hands with 4 mana sources and 3 cantrips for instance.

I code bots for MTGO, so I'm really used to making things like this fast.

The more straightforward the logic, the easier it is to code. I've really only spend about 4 hours on the program so far. Once it's perfected, I want to start running different lists through it, see if I can't come up with the 'best' Belcher list. Anyone I can do to speed it up or make it work better is my goal. The only real problems right now are mulligan decisions and Chrome Mox.
-T

phazonmutant
07-24-2013, 08:45 AM
Dissolution, could you post your code to github or bitbucket? I'd be interested in collaborating with you. Cool program, good work so far!

Ozymandias
07-24-2013, 12:28 PM
Damn................That's insane.

It would be interesting to find out if it's best to keep hands with x cards, y cantrips and 0 wincons. Maybe you can try that? It might be good to keep hands with 4 mana sources and 3 cantrips for instance.

The chances of hitting at least one win condition doing that are almost exactly 50 percent. I'm not sure what the goldfish rate for mulligans to 6 is. That's dictate whether or not to keep that hand.

Koby
07-24-2013, 01:14 PM
This thread has taken a turn to the AWESOME! Should I be expecting to play against a computer simulation next Legacy tournament?

alphastryk
07-24-2013, 03:14 PM
This thread has taken a turn to the AWESOME! Should I be expecting to play against a computer simulation next Legacy tournament?

SO if we take this and hook it up to a bot playing MODO...

But more seriously, dealing with any actual interaction is pretty hard, so no.


Dissolution, could you post your code to github or bitbucket? I'd be interested in collaborating with you. Cool program, good work so far!

For what it's worth I'd love to see / work on this as well...

FTW
07-24-2013, 03:33 PM
Great job with the simulation! So cool!

With 15% glitches out of your sample of 20 hands, that raises some questions about the 35% fizzle rate. A couple thoughts on the buggy fizzle scenarios:

1) How does your algorithm address hands with both Belcher and EtW. Does it assign a priority to one over the other unconditionally, or based on available mana sources, etc.? What about hands with Burning Wish + Belcher? How is priority assigned? It's possible that one might work while the other would yield a "fizzle".

2) I think you need to track actual mana in the recursion algorithm, not just CMC in pool. For example, the following 7-card hands fizzle and should probably be mulliganed despite theoretically producing enough mana and having a win condition and red mana sources:
- ESG, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Empty the Warrens, LED fizzles
- SSG, Tinder Wall * 2, Desperate Ritual * 2, Burning Wish, LED.
- Land Grant * 2, Desperate Ritual * 2, Seething Song, Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish
- Chrome Mox * 3, Rite of Flame, LED, Goblin Charbelcher * 2

To go off, we need not only a "0-cost" mana source and 4+mana, but enough of the right colors to chain into the next rituals. Otherwise it's a mulligan since you can't count on topdecking a free source of a specific color. I think the only way to address that is to track colored mana through the recursion, not just total mana.

3) Would it count a 5-mana + Burning Wish hand as a mulligan/fizzle? Because IMO a Belcher player would probably just keep that and hope to topdeck a 6th mana source for a turn 2 EtW... slow, but better than fizzling. 14 goblins on turn 2 is not awful.

4) Have you only looked at on the play so far? I would imagine the stats improve immensely on the draw with the 8th card. Any results for that?

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 07:37 PM
1) How does your algorithm address hands with both Belcher and EtW. Does it assign a priority to one over the other unconditionally, or based on available mana sources, etc.? What about hands with Burning Wish + Belcher? How is priority assigned? It's possible that one might work while the other would yield a "fizzle".
It tries to use belcher first if it has 7 mana, then it tries to use Burning Wish if it has 6, then it tries to Empty if it has 4.



2) I think you need to track actual mana in the recursion algorithm, not just CMC in pool. For example, the following 7-card hands fizzle and should probably be mulliganed despite theoretically producing enough mana and having a win condition and red mana sources:
- ESG, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Empty the Warrens, LED fizzles
- SSG, Tinder Wall * 2, Desperate Ritual * 2, Burning Wish, LED.
- Land Grant * 2, Desperate Ritual * 2, Seething Song, Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish
- Chrome Mox * 3, Rite of Flame, LED, Goblin Charbelcher * 2

I do track actual mana (the colors) in everything except the mulligan algorithm (to determine if we have enough mana to kickstart the process). That's the part that I'm going to be working on the most.



3) Would it count a 5-mana + Burning Wish hand as a mulligan/fizzle? Because IMO a Belcher player would probably just keep that and hope to topdeck a 6th mana source for a turn 2 EtW... slow, but better than fizzling. 14 goblins on turn 2 is not awful.

I need to make the program understand multiple turns for this idea, but it's a good one. Same as preferring to drop belcher t1 and belch t2 over emptying for like 3 on turn 1.



4) Have you only looked at on the play so far? I would imagine the stats improve immensely on the draw with the 8th card. Any results for that?
Yes, only Play. Coding Draw would be easy.

Right now the program doesn't have a UI and it's pretty choppy, that said, I'm going to get it up on GitHub today (once I pull my custom libraries from it).
-T

Dissolution
07-24-2013, 08:28 PM
Sorry for the double post, I wanted this to appear to anyone subscribed to this thread.

Here's the code!
https://github.com/Dissolution/goldfisher

Please be gentle with criticism, as mentioned, I've only spent a few hours on this.
-T

pokezel
07-25-2013, 01:01 AM
Sorry for the double post, I wanted this to appear to anyone subscribed to this thread.

Here's the code!
https://github.com/Dissolution/goldfisher

Please be gentle with criticism, as mentioned, I've only spent a few hours on this.
-T

This is excellent. I would love to help with writing this once I finish my current project in two weeks.

Ozymandias
07-25-2013, 03:46 PM
Sorry for the double post, I wanted this to appear to anyone subscribed to this thread.

Here's the code!
https://github.com/Dissolution/goldfisher

Please be gentle with criticism, as mentioned, I've only spent a few hours on this.
-T

Maybe I'm misreading things, but it seems that your program is immediately casting extra land grants beyond getting the first Taiga. Those should be saved till the last minute as potential mox fodder, and only cast if you are building storm for Empty.

Also, Desperate ritual can't quite be treated as Pyretic Ritual, because of the splice. For instance, a hand of 4x other mana, 2x desperate, Belcher is in fact a t1 belch.

Dissolution
07-25-2013, 07:30 PM
Maybe I'm misreading things, but it seems that your program is immediately casting extra land grants beyond getting the first Taiga. Those should be saved till the last minute as potential mox fodder, and only cast if you are building storm for Empty.

Also, Desperate ritual can't quite be treated as Pyretic Ritual, because of the splice. For instance, a hand of 4x other mana, 2x desperate, Belcher is in fact a t1 belch.

If you look at Chrome Mox, it's logic has it wait for one land grant to resolve + get a Taiga before imprinting. Otherwise, they just resolve because why not? After the first one they're dead anyways. I guess I can see holding them for potential t2 mox draw into belch. Will have to wait until I have it understand multiple turns.

As for Desperate, I forgot about splice. Good catch, I'll work on it today.

Sorry about the odd posting times, I'm in Japan.
-T

Ozymandias
07-25-2013, 07:46 PM
If you look at Chrome Mox, it's logic has it wait for one land grant to resolve + get a Taiga before imprinting. Otherwise, they just resolve because why not? After the first one they're dead anyways.
-T

Ah, I see. Still, Manamorphose is the issue. As the code currently stands, you can resolve a Manamorphose and topdeck a chrome mox, but have already cast a useless Land Grant. It's a small thing, but it is worth noting.

Ozymandias
07-25-2013, 07:58 PM
One other thing I notice is that your code is just looking at initial mana available to determine whether or not to go for a win condition. Do you think it is also worth looking at the number of possible mana sources left over? For instance, is having Belcher with Taiga in play and Spirit guide in hand than Empty the Warrens for less than 20?

FTW
07-25-2013, 08:54 PM
One other thing I notice is that your code is just looking at initial mana available to determine whether or not to go for a win condition. Do you think it is also worth looking at the number of possible mana sources left over? For instance, is having Belcher with Taiga in play and Spirit guide in hand than Empty the Warrens for less than 20?

This. I don't like the logic of 7 = Belcher, 6=Wish, 4=EtW to resolve priorities when you have multiple win conditions in hand. If you could have Taiga + Mox in play and can generate 4 mana turn 1, Belcher+passturn is way better than EtW for 8-10. If mana >= 4 and mana next turn >=2, you should pretty much always be picking Belcher. It shouldn't be hard to factor in.

And agreed on Land Grant. Even if they are useless, Land Grants 2-4 should be cast LAST of all support spells, only after playing out all rituals and cantrips and only if going for a storm win. There is no good reason to cast them any earlier, other than bluffing that you are playing the awful 2-land Belcher and tricking the opponent into forgetting to FoW your Seething Song because he's so blown away by bad deck construction.

Dissolution
07-27-2013, 07:43 AM
Updated the repo with new code. Changed the way it mulligans, added support for Desperate Ritual splice.
Take a look!

7/31 Update: Chrome Mox logic has been rewritten. I walked it through 100 golfishes involving Chrome Mox and I didn't see any done incorrectly.
With this update, I'm fairly certain the percentages are correct:

My List: 32% failure, 24% belcher (58% drop, 3% <20 dmg, 38% lethal), 42% empty (~12 tokens)
AStormBrewing's List: 30% failure, 28% belcher (same as mine), 41% empty (~10 tokens)
-T

Bahamuth
08-01-2013, 05:22 PM
I don't understand much of your program, but I'm able to run it. I think the next step should be to build it in such a way that it tests out different decklists and finds the one that wins the most on turn 1.

In order to do this though, we'd need to assign some kind of weights to all possible outcomes of a goldfish. Here are the possible outcomes I see with some suggested weights:

Failures: 0

Drop only: 0.75
<20: 0.75
20+: 1

2: 0
4: 0
6: 0.2
8: 0.5
10: 0.8
12: 0.9
14: 0.9
16: 0.9
18: 0.9
20+: 1.0

Would like to hear if you agree

Dissolution
08-01-2013, 08:04 PM
I don't understand much of your program, but I'm able to run it. I think the next step should be to build it in such a way that it tests out different decklists and finds the one that wins the most on turn 1.

In order to do this though, we'd need to assign some kind of weights to all possible outcomes of a goldfish. Here are the possible outcomes I see with some suggested weights:
SNIP
Would like to hear if you agree

Right now you can test various decklists, you just have to manually change them (top of the fisher).
The annoying thing is entering them manually. The other problem is the number of combinations of cards to make up a 60-card deck is huge.
Maybe the best would be to establish a core (cards that can't ever change) and then just test the few flex slots, that might get the iterations manageable.
Your weights have a bit of merit, but I think the #1 important stat is failure rate. Once we get a list of the decks that keep that low, we can individually weight them.

I also still need to get the fisher to handle multiple turns and to not always spend every single card in hand.

If you need further assistance with understanding and such, feel free to PM me on the boards.
-T

astormbrewing
08-01-2013, 10:04 PM
Can we just rename this deck "Tech Support"? Is there any meaningful discussion to be had?

ahg113
08-02-2013, 12:35 AM
Can we just rename this deck "Tech Support"? Is there any meaningful discussion to be had?

The SB is the most relevant discussion, if it's a wish board, or tools to fight blue, maybe both. For a little while, there was discussion on the old thread about switching from Belcher into critters like Thrun, the Last Troll, Demigod of Revenge or something else of sort, maybe playing with Reforge the Soul.

Otherwise, I'd agree, it's a deck about math, and little else. Still tons of fun. Just won an auction for my second G. Monolith, looking forward to trying your list.

Bahamuth
08-02-2013, 05:39 AM
Right now you can test various decklists, you just have to manually change them (top of the fisher).
The annoying thing is entering them manually. The other problem is the number of combinations of cards to make up a 60-card deck is huge.
Maybe the best would be to establish a core (cards that can't ever change) and then just test the few flex slots, that might get the iterations manageable.
Your weights have a bit of merit, but I think the #1 important stat is failure rate. Once we get a list of the decks that keep that low, we can individually weight them.

I also still need to get the fisher to handle multiple turns and to not always spend every single card in hand.

If you need further assistance with understanding and such, feel free to PM me on the boards.
-T

Yeah, of course we should establish a core. I think at least 45 cards should be fixed already, and with the speed of your program, I'm pretty sure we can easily run through all options from that point.

You are probably right about the failure rate.

While implementing a way to run for multiple turns has merit, I don't think it's as relevant, since strength of hands starts fluctuating heavily because of what your opponent has. I also think you could argue that the best Belcher list is just the list that wins the most on turn 1.

Braves54321
08-02-2013, 08:24 AM
Can we just rename this deck "Tech Support"? Is there any meaningful discussion to be had?

I'll throw out some discussion. Have any of you tested trash for treasure in the sb? Seems that any build utilizing this out of the board would have to have 4 chrome mox. But with just 2 mana, burning wish and an led, with belcher in hand and another artifact in play its snuck me in a belcher a few times and really feel its worth a single spot of any wish boards. A lot of people might not care for it but I figured I'd mention it.

WorldslayerGuy
08-02-2013, 04:45 PM
I'll throw out some discussion. Have any of you tested trash for treasure in the sb? Seems that any build utilizing this out of the board would have to have 4 chrome mox. But with just 2 mana, burning wish and an led, with belcher in hand and another artifact in play its snuck me in a belcher a few times and really feel its worth a single spot of any wish boards. A lot of people might not care for it but I figured I'd mention it.

I've seen it in some lists. Strikes me as one of those cards that gets Wished for once in 100 games to eke out a win (hello Goblin War Strike!). But if the board can squeeze it in, I'm sure it'd be good addition. Have to see if I can make a cut in my sideboard.

astormbrewing
08-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Playing in a local event tomorrow. Expecting 30ish players. Playing my usual mainboard, basically the same sideboard.

paeng4983
08-06-2013, 01:06 AM
Playing in a local event tomorrow. Expecting 30ish players. Playing my usual mainboard, basically the same sideboard.

So, how did you do? I am really eager to know how did Belcher performed with today's meta.

We just had our legacy tournament here in Manila, Philippines. 70 players participated. Days before the tournament, Belcher was my first pick. But the night before, I opt for TES.

Aside from astormbrewing, anyone here used the deck recently, and kind enough to share what happened in his/ her games?

Thanks

-paeng

astormbrewing
08-06-2013, 09:41 AM
So, how did you do? I am really eager to know how did Belcher performed with today's meta.

There was a lot of blue at this 45+ player event. I also wasn't the only Belcher player.

0-2 vs UWR Delver
2-0 vs Junk Hex Depths
0-2 vs Shardless BUG

I'm probably putting Belcher on the backburner as I finish Dredge and start acquiring Solidarity.

FTW
08-06-2013, 12:11 PM
There was a lot of blue at this 45+ player event. I also wasn't the only Belcher player.

0-2 vs UWR Delver
2-0 vs Junk Hex Depths
0-2 vs Shardless BUG

I'm probably putting Belcher on the backburner as I finish Dredge and start acquiring Solidarity.

So what you're saying is you were 100% against non-blue and 0% against blue? Sounds like Belcher :)

astormbrewing
08-06-2013, 01:36 PM
So what you're saying is you were 100% against non-blue and 0% against blue? Sounds like Belcher :)

Pretty much. I beat a couple blue decks at SCG Baltimore in June, but it's luck. I think the meta around here is shifting more to blue, so I'm tucking the deck for now.

Koby
08-06-2013, 02:00 PM
So what you're saying is you were 100% against non-blue and 0% against blue? Sounds like Belcher :)

Even against blue decks, you're probably about 50% in Game 1, since they need to have FoW at the very least to stop you.

feline
08-06-2013, 05:59 PM
Matthias Hunt lost to Belcher round 1 in Minneapolis this weekend, he was playing Omnitell. (I call it Omniblue) When he told me I basically just said. "That's Legacy!"

WorldslayerGuy
08-06-2013, 07:22 PM
Like any deck, if you've been playing it for a while and are familair enough with it, you can outplay bad matchups. One time, after beating a Helm/RIP player with Belcher, I heard someone say, "its not as much a glass cannon as people think."

FTW
08-08-2013, 12:33 AM
Like any deck, if you've been playing it for a while and are familair enough with it, you can outplay bad matchups. One time, after beating a Helm/RIP player with Belcher, I heard someone say, "its not as much a glass cannon as people think."

+1. I've won through hate and disruption before with this deck and definitely enjoy playing with it. Particularly fun when you have Burning Wish + EtW and you can bait a counter on Wish to boost the storm count :) Or beat Daze on Belcher with secret Spirit Guides...

In case it wasn't obvious, the 0%-100% thing was hyperbole. Just making an observation about the guy's results.

TerribleTim68
08-22-2013, 12:45 PM
Still looking forward to Mikey's new brew. Don't leave us hanging man! :wink:

Koby
09-01-2013, 08:07 PM
Benjamin Perry in 1st place (8-1) at SCG Cincinnati with Belcher going into Top 8.

Nice format, Legacy. You're Belcher's bitch.

WorldslayerGuy
09-01-2013, 09:43 PM
Benjamin Perry in 1st place (8-1) at SCG Cincinnati with Belcher going into Top 8.

Nice format, Legacy. You're Belcher's bitch.

Another in the Top 16 too. Cincy's gettin' Belched.

Lyle Hopkins
09-05-2013, 05:08 PM
Another great primer from feline.

Serious Vintage does an excellent podcast on Belcher, covering the history and development of the deck, some piloting tips, and about ten minutes of discussion concerning Legacy Belcher. The podcast includes Nat Moes, Geoff Moes, and Josh Chapple. I highly recommend it for any Belcher enthusiast.

Might be worth adding to the links section...
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3281

feline
09-05-2013, 06:27 PM
Another great primer from feline.

Serious Vintage does an excellent podcast on Belcher, covering the history and development of the deck, some piloting tips, and about ten minutes of discussion concerning Legacy Belcher. The podcast includes Nat Moes, Geoff Moes, and Josh Chapple. I highly recommend it for any Belcher enthusiast.

Might be worth adding to the links section...
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3281

Thank you I will be adding it now.

paeng4983
09-08-2013, 08:54 AM
I participated in a legacy tournament here (Manila) awhile ago where 38 heads played.

My list:
Land
1 Taiga

Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
3 Manamorphose
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Simian Spirit Guide


Sideboard:
15 cards from an opened Modern Master Booster pack

My MUs were:
RUG 1-2
Merpok 2-1
GW mavs 2-0
Pox 2-0
RUG 1-2
Jund 2-0

Landed 9th or 10th.
I did not make it to the top 8 due to bad tie breaks, again.

Here's some of the stuffs that I can recall.
http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/another-almost-there-finish-this-time-with-belcher-t8.html

Anfylion
09-11-2013, 01:29 AM
Ben Perry wins in G1 versus Kurt Crane, through:

t1: Shattering Spree to charlbelcher
t2: Chalice of the Void = 1 , and Wasteland to Taiga
t3: an 8/8 Reliquary

Belcher t4:

ESG+ESG+freaking Monkey+Burning Wish+LED activation = Diminishing Return

(RG in mana pool and new 7 cards)

A couple of red rituals+ Burning Wish+Infernal Tutor= CharBelcher GG

always been unfairly prejudiced with this deck, but now i love it...

DragoFireheart
09-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Look at all these silly kids going down to less than 4 Force of Will!

Thankfully, Belcher is around to help remind them why they shouldn't skimp on free countermagic.

rooneg
09-21-2013, 08:56 AM
Might want to add Ben Perry's tournament report (http://laithnaser.com/st-cinci-top4) from SCG Cincinnatti to the primer. It is, of course, ridiculously entertaining.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2013, 06:20 PM
Might want to add Ben Perry's tournament report (http://laithnaser.com/st-cinci-top4) from SCG Cincinnatti to the primer. It is, of course, ridiculously entertaining.

Ohio is a Twilight Zone so the report is quite accurate.

ScatmanX
09-26-2013, 09:40 AM
Just read this (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-optimal-decks-for-ten-new-goldfish-formats/), then read the comments, and it got me wondering: Is there actually a code to create the faster Belcher list possibly? Does anybody knomw that list?
I don't think the code could incorporate SB cards (apart from Wish->Empty), or playing against counterspell, but it would still be a nice thing to look at.

Dissolution
09-26-2013, 08:29 PM
If you look back about two pages, you'll see that I have an open-source belcher goldfisher. There was quite a bit of discussion about it there.
I never implemented multiple turns, nor a way to automatically determine the fastest list.
If there's interest, I might be able to do so.
-T

Matt
10-08-2013, 04:56 AM
Hello everyone!

I've been playing T.E.S for awhile now, but I'm relatively new to belcher. So, I was hoping you could answer a question or two I have concerning sideboarding.

Main:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
Creatures [12]

4 Burning Wish
3 Chrome Mox
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
Spells [47]

1 Taiga
Land[1]

Sideboard:
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Forest
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
3 Xantid Swarm


VS. U/R Delver

-4 Gitaxian Probe
+4 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Taiga
+1 Forest

Question #1) What should be removed when siding in a Forest against Wasteland?

My first instinct is to say Taiga, as two lands would weaken Goblin Charbelcher. Though, this would also reduce initial red mana sources (Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide, Land Grant, Taiga) from 16 (26% or roughly 1 in 4) to 11 (18% or roughly 1 in 6)--which is acceptable, but I don't want to make a janky deck jankier...

Question #2) Several individuals play Stax at my local shop. With this in mind, is Naturalize a viable option?

It's CC is somewhat expensive (1G) compared to Oxidize or Ingot Chewer, but this also allows it to beat Chalice of the Void on 1. Though more importantly, Naturalize hits enchantments as well as artifacts, allowing it to not only answer Chalice of the Void (on 0 and 1) and Trinisphere but also Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field--giving it an edge even on Shattering Spree.

All feedback is much appreciated,

Matthew

Damoxx
10-08-2013, 10:14 AM
Sideboard:
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Forest
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
3 Xantid Swarm

Question #2) Several individuals play Stax at my local shop. With this in mind, is Naturalize a viable option?

It's CC is somewhat expensive (1G) compared to Oxidize or Ingot Chewer, but this also allows it to beat Chalice of the Void on 1. Though more importantly, Naturalize hits enchantments as well as artifacts, allowing it to not only answer Chalice of the Void (on 0 and 1) and Trinisphere but also Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field--giving it an edge even on Shattering Spree.

All feedback is much appreciated,

Matthew

vs Stax all you really need is shattering spree. Shattering Spree's replicate copies gets around chalice at 1. Reverent Silence is a house against their O.Ring, ghostly prison, suppression field etc. I've played a turn 1 Belcher without mana to activate only to have it o.ring'd. I just sat there and built up mana producers until I could burning wish for reverent silence and activate belcher (5 mana) in the same turn. /backinthedaystory

Trall
10-09-2013, 06:31 PM
Hi all !

I just registered because i wanted to react about the golldfish programm discussed 2 pages ago.

Well, i started to develop in JAVA my own programm for 2 weeks now (i have a full time job & doing sports = not that much time spent on it) and I find results in this thread interesting.

My programm run something like 15' for 1 000 000 hands (or < 1'30" for 100 000 hands). I'm not sure that my algo. is optimal (in fact i'm pretty sure it's not) but I have some decent results.

Here is "how my stuff work", but only the headline :

- You import a deck with cockatrice format
- A .xml parser is called (SAX) and convert the .xml into a deck readable by my programm
- I call my algorithm (who consider also the case of Burning Wish with infernal tutor !)
- I get differents result in .csv format, such as :
* A column with results in it : 0 = fizzle, 1 = win with belcher, 3 = belcher not winning :(, 5 = have to mulligan, 2*q = number of gob's
* Total mana without LED
* Number of LED played
* Total mana WITH LED

Contrairy to people, i'm then using maths & statistics with R to obtains more information like the mean, the std deviation or even graphs showing the repartition of the number of gob's in frequency.

Then, ill try to compare different decklist (wishless / wish list) to know WHAT KIND OF BELCHER is the BEST !
* only on turn 1

I'm not done yet with how i'll go that (may be some correlation MATRIX or linear regression to show which car are more important than others...)

But before I publish a full report (if ppl are interested), here are few results :



My List: 32% failure, 24% belcher (58% drop, 3% <20 dmg, 38% lethal), 42% empty (~12 tokens)
AStormBrewing's List: 30% failure, 28% belcher (same as mine), 41% empty (~10 tokens)
-T


With my programm & Ben perry's list :
34% Failure (= You have a business spell in hand but fail to achieve anything !)
22% of mullingan (= You don't have business spell). FYI, this mullingan decision follow a hypergeom. dist, which has a 22.24 theorical mean ! So I gues I'm right :)
10% of activating a belcher (10% of fail = 1% of total hand active belcher and fail to deal at least 20)
34% of times when i get some gobs (mean = 13.12 ; max = 28 ; std dev = 3.35; seems to follow a gaussian. But still have to prove it !)
====
100%

Contrairy to the previous kind of test, if I have to mulligan I'm not doing a new simulation !
I'll do it later with 6 / 5 / 4 cards in hand.
I'll also do it with a full 8 card since we can be on the draw (yes, it happens)

=]

Feel free to react'

Ps : Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker :)

astormbrewing
10-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Hi all !

I just registered because i wanted to react about the golldfish programm discussed 2 pages ago.

Well, i started to develop in JAVA my own programm for 2 weeks now (i have a full time job & doing sports = not that much time spent on it) and I find results in this thread interesting.

My programm run something like 15' for 1 000 000 hands (or < 1'30" for 100 000 hands). I'm not sure that my algo. is optimal (in fact i'm pretty sure it's not) but I have some decent results.

Here is "how my stuff work", but only the headline :

- You import a deck with cockatrice format
- A .xml parser is called (SAX) and convert the .xml into a deck readable by my programm
- I call my algorithm (who consider also the case of Burning Wish with infernal tutor !)
- I get differents result in .csv format, such as :
* A column with results in it : 0 = fizzle, 1 = win with belcher, 3 = belcher not winning :(, 5 = have to mulligan, 2*q = number of gob's
* Total mana without LED
* Number of LED played
* Total mana WITH LED

Contrairy to people, i'm then using maths & statistics with R to obtains more information like the mean, the std deviation or even graphs showing the repartition of the number of gob's in frequency.

Then, ill try to compare different decklist (wishless / wish list) to know WHAT KIND OF BELCHER is the BEST !
* only on turn 1

I'm not done yet with how i'll go that (may be some correlation MATRIX or linear regression to show which car are more important than others...)

But before I publish a full report (if ppl are interested), here are few results :



With my programm & Ben perry's list :
34% Failure (= You have a business spell in hand but fail to achieve anything !)
22% of mullingan (= You don't have business spell). FYI, this mullingan decision follow a hypergeom. dist, which has a 22.24 theorical mean ! So I gues I'm right :)
10% of activating a belcher (10% of fail = 1% of total hand active belcher and fail to deal at least 20)
34% of times when i get some gobs (mean = 13.12 ; max = 28 ; std dev = 3.35; seems to follow a gaussian. But still have to prove it !)
====
100%

Contrairy to the previous kind of test, if I have to mulligan I'm not doing a new simulation !
I'll do it later with 6 / 5 / 4 cards in hand.
I'll also do it with a full 8 card since we can be on the draw (yes, it happens)

=]

Feel free to react'

Ps : Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker :)

Neat to see that my list is alright. Could you also test what it looks like with zero Burning Wish? If so, I'm interested with this list:

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Seething Song
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
1 Taiga
3 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall

Trall
10-10-2013, 06:03 PM
Sure,

Let's share what i got with 100 000 hands :

- You have to mulligan 34.73% of time since you don't have any business spell in hand (theorically it's 34.64% since it's still following a hypergoem. dist.)
- 26.5% of the hand you kept (= "you have >= 1 busines spell) will fizzle (not enough mana for example --- too much bus. sp.)
- You'll be able to cast Belcher with a near 11% probability but like in a wish build, 10% of those belcher's activation will fizzle (deal < 20 dmg)
- 28.8% of your hand will be able to fire an ETW. On average, when casting ETW, you'll get 11.98 gob's (=12) with a std deviation of 2.9. This mean that comparing to my wish list you'll have LESS goblin's but you are more likely to be around 10-14 most of the time

Don't forget, those results are a little SUBOPTIMAL, that means that's "real results", while not far away will be BETTER.
Furthemore, this indicate for now ONLY turn 1 with 7 cards in hand (no mulliganning that's why we have to read results in a carefull way)

To conclude, if i have to compare with the WISH build I posted before :

- Wishless build are mulliganing with a highrer rate (~35% compared to 22%). Only considering the lack of business spell. Seems 100% legit with a 11 business spells build vs 8...
- When able to go off, wishless list will get results MORE OFTEN than wish build (34% vs 26.5%) ! Explained by the fact that "hey what happen ? 5 mana, a BW and you can't do shit ?"... Yeah... Happens "a lot"
- Wishless build will be able to activate belcher a little bit more than the wish list (11% vs 10%). The same amount will fizzle
- Wishless build will produce less gob's on average. Easily explain by the fact than chaining BW -> ETW or BW -> IT -> ETW or even BW -> IT -> BW -> ETW will increase storm count, hence the higher mean & higher std dev.

So, while playing wishless, you'll have to mulligan MORE OFTEN that in whish build, but once you have a business spell, you are more likely to achieve something turn 1, even if it's generaly less "impressive" than wish build (= -1 gob's on average)

Regards,
Trall

kavaki
10-11-2013, 04:00 AM
I know this has been answered before, but how many cards are usually in the Wishboard if you run Burning Wish?

Final Fortune
10-11-2013, 04:02 AM
I know this has been answered before, but how many cards are usually in the Wishboard if you run Burning Wish?

One, maybe two.

kavaki
10-11-2013, 04:13 AM
One, maybe two.

that few?
I'd of assumed around 4.

Trall
10-13-2013, 07:54 AM
I know this has been answered before, but how many cards are usually in the Wishboard if you run Burning Wish?

At least you'll have to run :

Empty the Warrens.

I also like to have :

Shat. Spree to deal w/ art
Something to kill enchant like Reverent Silence
A mix of them in the form of Hull Breach
Pyroclasm to deal with teeg & co
Infernal Tutor cause it increase storm count for free when you can cast it
Diminishing Returns can turn a "almost lose" into free win.

So i guess 7 is a good number :)

Final Fortune
10-13-2013, 11:24 AM
that few?
I'd of assumed around 4.

For me yeah, there's better things to do with your SB space frankly, Burning Wish is only really useful for creating more virtual copies of your win condition and that's it. Belcher isn't exactly TES.

Megadeus
10-13-2013, 11:36 AM
To cast most wish targets you have to spend mana, which for this deck basically means discarding cards.

WorldslayerGuy
10-13-2013, 11:59 AM
My Wishboard (which honestly changes now and then) is Empty, Shattering Spree, Reverent Silence, Goblin War Strike, Infernal Tutor, Tendrils of Agony, and Past in Flames. Given that what the deck actually sides in has to be minimal, or else you screw up the whole game plan, I've tried to run more situational wish targets. Yeah, you probably don't Wish for most of them most of the time, but it's good when you need them to have them. And yes, I've Wished for every card in that list before.

kavaki
10-13-2013, 09:21 PM
Ok, I was only assuming

EtW
'Clasm effect
Artifact Destruction
Enchantment destruction

Im not sold on Diminishing Returns. It just feels like the :u::u: makes it really hard to get off.

GoldenCid
10-13-2013, 11:36 PM
Wow!! What happened this time that Manamorphose is on scene again?? Wasnt it a deadcard??

WarpWorld
11-02-2013, 11:33 PM
Went to a small 10 man tournament and split top4 with this deck:

Land (1)
1 Taiga

Artifact (16)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Creature (13)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
1 Goblin Welder

Instant (11)
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
3 Desperate Ritual

Sorcery (19)
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrens

Side Board (15)
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Forest
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
1 Reverent Silence
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reforge the Soul

Round 1 v. Esper Blade
Game 1 played probe saw he was on blade and that he didn't have force so I went for 14 goblins and got there.
Game 2 mulled to oblivion and went on the welder beats plan till Batterskull came down to end me quickly
Game 3 probed saw force and blue cards had empty in hand so I went for it. Played empty storm count 6 he forced a copy so I got 10 guys. He played SFM on his turn for Batterskull. My turn swing dropping him to 10 then his Batterskull comes down. I put him to 6 I try to go for BW into war strike but meet a force and lose to Batterskull beats.
0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 Bye
Took some time to scout the field and I played the only deck packing FOW. I know I won't see anymore forces till the top4.
1-1 (1-2)

Round 3 v. Bant (bad deck turned out to be a highlander style deck with no real legacy staples)
Game 1 I mulled to 6 and went BW into empty for 14 goblins on my 3rd turn and got there. Turns out he had a detention sphere in hand but white mana. I don't think it would have mattered as he had no clock and I was still at 20 when the game ended.
Game 2 he mulled to 5 on the play I turn one belched for 80.
2-1 (3-2)

Round 4 v. Goblins
Game 1 kept an ok 7 but I needed a second mana source to get there. He played some goblins and I discarded a few empties on the turn before lethal I played belcher and activated it for lethal.
Game 2 I made 18 goblins turn one on the draw.
3-1 (5-2)

Me and esper blade were the top 2 going into the top4. We decided to split the top4.

Comments, questions, and suggestions are always welcome.

Infinitium
11-03-2013, 06:50 AM
Congratulations! If you run Probe md you might as well run Recross the Paths as a 1-of in the sideboard; in games where you open with Taiga/Landgrant BW -> Recross will win at most 3 turns later (from top to bottom stack LED, Probe, Charbelcher and LED), or earlier with access to Probe/LED beforehand. This acts as a workaround to matchups where the opponent doesn't have counters but can reliably answer Empty the Warrens.

GoldenCid
11-03-2013, 01:50 PM
How did Reforge the soul worked out?? Was it good?

WarpWorld
11-03-2013, 04:50 PM
@Infinitium my wish board is already huge as is I can normally win without it although I did test the Recross build but feel that the more standard wish list is better and it's a win more card.

@GoldenCid Reforge has been nice. I would say that it is about as consistent as Diminishing Returns. That being said I run both because there are situations where you Burning Wish without LED and only have acess to red mana and empty doesn't have a high enough storm count.

apple713
11-08-2013, 02:48 PM
I'm having trouble giving my wife matchup notes for this matchup. Im finding it hard to simplify it for her cause there are a lot of tells that can indicate what spell is coming next and which spell needs to get countered. I simply can't teach her that experience. I have her playing Sneak and Show so she has access to Spell Snare and FOW.

Anyone have advice on how to explain it / what spells to counter?

ESG
11-08-2013, 07:26 PM
I'm having trouble giving my wife matchup notes for this matchup. Im finding it hard to simplify it for her cause there are a lot of tells that can indicate what spell is coming next and which spell needs to get countered. I simply can't teach her that experience. I have her playing Sneak and Show so she has access to Spell Snare and FOW.

Anyone have advice on how to explain it / what spells to counter?

General guidelines:
*Counter Seething Song. Once Charbelcher has four mana open, Empty the Warrens becomes live and Force of Will becomes moot.
* If the Belcher player has five mana in pool and plays a Burning Wish, Force that.
* Spell Snare is not that good against Charbelcher. The only decent card it hits is Burning Wish.

Sneak and Show should often be able to race goblins unless facing them Turn 1 on the draw, since Griselbrand's lifelink is so good, so another way to go about it would be to ignore anything but the Charbelcher itself. Often the Belcher player will help you out by starting with Land Grant, in which case you can see which plan he's on. You can have her practice the matchup. It won't take long, since most games will be largely decided in just a few turns.

apple713
11-09-2013, 12:18 AM
General guidelines:
*Counter Seething Song. Once Charbelcher has four mana open, Empty the Warrens becomes live and Force of Will becomes moot.
* If the Belcher player has five mana in pool and plays a Burning Wish, Force that.
* Spell Snare is not that good against Charbelcher. The only decent card it hits is Burning Wish.

Sneak and Show should often be able to race goblins unless facing them Turn 1 on the draw, since Griselbrand's lifelink is so good, so another way to go about it would be to ignore anything but the Charbelcher itself. Often the Belcher player will help you out by starting with Land Grant, in which case you can see which plan he's on. You can have her practice the matchup. It won't take long, since most games will be largely decided in just a few turns.

thanks

Vacrix
11-09-2013, 03:52 PM
Have you guys tried Lotus Bloom yet in the board? I've been using it in PSI and it works quite well, though SI plays more business. You could probably play a 3/3 split of Carpet/Bloom, cut down on the unnecessary BW board a bit, and then run some additional protection so you can ensure that your business connects.

Captain Hammer
11-25-2013, 04:01 AM
Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Chrome Mox
4 Street Wraith
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Pyretic Ritual
1 Taiga

Some of the decisions I made such as playing a variant that doesn't use LED, I made out of budget concerns.

topef27
11-30-2013, 06:27 PM
Has anyone tried sideboarding in blood moon/magus of the moon? I saw someone doing well with that strategy at GPDC. He had resolved an early magus against the eventual winner Owen Turtenwald (zero basics), but still lost after Owen Forced two charbelchers and then hardcast Batterskull off five nonbasics. Still, it seemed like a viable strategy.

f7eleven
12-10-2013, 04:05 PM
Has anyone tried sideboarding in blood moon/magus of the moon? I saw someone doing well with that strategy at GPDC. He had resolved an early magus against the eventual winner Owen Turtenwald (zero basics), but still lost after Owen Forced two charbelchers and then hardcast Batterskull off five nonbasics. Still, it seemed like a viable strategy.

I sat near this guy a couple times at GPDC and it looked sweet. I know he was definitely bringing in 8 moons but I don't know his entire list/board, or what he sides out for the moons.

Lyle Hopkins
12-11-2013, 03:09 PM
I sat near this guy a couple times at GPDC and it looked sweet. I know he was definitely bringing in 8 moons but I don't know his entire list/board, or what he sides out for the moons.

This feels like a pretty neat idea. I'm definitely interested if anyone has more information about this list.

GoldenCid
12-29-2013, 01:16 PM
This is the list im testing right now and goes great in goldfishing.


4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Tinder Wall
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
3 Manamorphose
1 Grim Monolith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Shattering Spree

I made some statics about the turn this going off and if it's via belcher or warrens. If you're interested i'll share it.
If you have any question or comment you are welcomed!

GC.

Final Fortune
12-30-2013, 02:05 AM
I sat near this guy a couple times at GPDC and it looked sweet. I know he was definitely bringing in 8 moons but I don't know his entire list/board, or what he sides out for the moons.

Yes, this is actually a rather old strategy for Belcher that was discussed in the last thread or the thread before last, and it's a completely viable approach vs decks like BUG that play no basics and SB answers to Empty the Warrens. Essentially, the idea is to board in 8 Moons on the play and cast a Moon before the opponent has the opportunity to play a Fetchland for an Island and you'll side out Burning Wish/Lions Eye Diamond for the 4th Empty the Warrens, 7 Moons and then find something else to take out for the 8th Moon.

I waver on wether or not it's a better plans than Chancellor of the Annex vs UBW type control decks, I think it expressly depends on whether or not they can accelerate into Engineered Plague quick enough. It's also some what lacking vs UWR or RUG control decks where Lightning Bolt answers Magus of the Moon and Rough/Tumble answers both Magus of the Moon and Empty the Warrens.

feline
12-30-2013, 07:24 AM
2013. A look at the numbers, trends, etc:

Compared to 2012, Belcher has been on the decline in it's showings this year. The wishless trend seems to have died off, showing only 1 list that is wishless in the 2013 decks. Also somehow, 7 out of 10 of the top 16 Belcher decks at Starcitygames this year, were all in Ohio, the other 3 being Atlanta, Edison, & Las Vegas. Also, 4 of the 10 top 16 placings, were top 8 finishes. The deck itself? It has largely remained the same, mana & ritual effects, along with Burning Wish / Empty the Warrens / Goblin Charbelcher & some wish targets in the sideboard.

As for 2014, the deck's not going anywhere, someone will always be playing it somewhere. Best of luck to those that do, for the deck that attempts to fulfill that long standing question to newer players "Can I make a deck that kills on turn 1?" With Belcher, the answer is yes, or at least to combo on turn 1 consistently enough.

Trall
01-03-2014, 01:01 PM
Hi guys !

First of all i want to wish happy new year to every body =)

Pages ago, we were speaking about simulating with computer Belcher's deck. I did one simulator and worked on it until end of november.

Then I made a "report" : here is the link Click me (http://trall3.free.fr/belcher/Belcher.pdf) !!!

In this report, you can find data analysis & statistics about our deck. Feel free to discuss and give me feebacks. I'm not a native speaker so my english might be bad.

I think it's the first time that a study like that has been made.
I hope you'll enjoy it.
I also may share sources (java programm)... I'm pretty sure they "sux" in term of quality of conception despite I got a maths & IT MSc...

Enjoy',
Trall :)

Fryed
01-04-2014, 11:16 PM
I played in a small Legacy tournament at my LGS, and I decided to sleeve up my old Charbelcher deck. After reading through this thread, I decided on the following:

Lands
1 Taiga

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Grim Monolith

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Trash for Treasure
1 Forest
2 Sylvan Library
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm

R1: An uneven number of participants meant a bye, and I got it. OK, whatever.

R2 vs Pox. Wow, I dodged Counterspells! Oh, wait, lots of discard. Ok, I just need to win the die roll - nope. And G1 I mulligan to 5. And he cast Hymn to Tourach on T2 and T3. And he then cast Liliana of the Veil, ticked her up to 7, and then ultimated it. And I Belched and won that game! How? After he decimated my hand with the Hymns, he had no pressure (typical of Pox). After a couple of turns, and he cast Liliana, I knew I wasn't going to win by storming lots of Goblins, so I dumped the remaining cards I had been able to hold onto the table -- Lotus Petal x2, Grim Monolith, and Lion's Eye Diamond, and hoped for a Belcher. He found a Nether Spirit and started nudging my life down while ticking Liliana up. When he ultimated Liliana, he decided to group the Petals with LED in one pile and the Grim Monolith in the other pile, so I took the LED and Petals. His Nether Spirit got me down to 1 life when I finally drew the Belcher, used the one other card in my hand, Rite of Flame (there was another in the yard), with the Petals to cast it, and LED powered it for the win! G2 he cast Unmask, Dark Ritual, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Hymn to Tourach on T1 (!), cast Pithing Needle on Goblin Charbelcher on T2, and Liliana on T3 -- I went ahead and scooped when he then cast Nether Spirit. G3 I Belched on T1 for the win. (1-0)

R3 vs Burn. I don't think I can lose this matchup unless crazy things happen. G1 on the play I mulled again to 5, and kept a hand with no win condition but lots of mana. She beat me down to 7 in 3 turns with Goblin Guide and burn, but when her GG revealed Goblin Charbelcher on the top of my deck and I survived the turn, I smiled. And won. G2 I had the T1 win with Belcher. (2-0)

R4 vs American Delver. Ah, finally a blue deck. G1 I'm on the draw and we both mulligan to 6. His only counterspell was Daze, and I had an ESG to pay and made 12 Goblins on T1, so he scooped. G2 I cast a T1 Gitaxian Probe, and saw 2 Force of WIlls, a Daze, and a couple of blue cards. I never resolved anything of importance. G3 he mulled to 5, obviously looking for a FOW. I cast T1 Xanthid Swarm to see if he would use virtually his whole hand to keep it out. It resolved, but next turn he cast Swords to Plowshares on it - ouch. I then ETW for only 8 goblins, as I expected them to do some good with his depleted hand. He countered one of the storm copies, so I only got 6 goblins. He then cast Meddling Mage naming LED, and after I attacked a few times (losing a goblin to the Mage each time) he was at 7 and I had 3 goblins left. They stared at each other a few turns, while he cast a Delver which flipped immediately. I tried another Xanthid Swarm and he again cast StP on it. My life total was going 20-17-14-11-8-5. I finally resolved a Carpet of Flowers, and when he then tried to counter a few rituals to keep me off ETW mana, the Carpet powered a big ETW and I made 12 goblins to let me win on 2 life (he had no Bolt, whew). (3-0)

Top 4 vs Merfolk. G1 I mulled to 6, had a T1 Belcher on the draw and went for it, but FOW stopped me cold and his fish killed me quick. G2 a T1 Xanthid Swarm put my opponent to a hard question -- use his only counter immediately, or never be able to counter again? He decided to let it resolve, and the Swarm let me resolve a Belcher on T3 and activate him on T4. G3 I mulled to 6, kept Gitaxian Probe, Land Grant x 2, Xanthid Swarm, Chrome Mox, Goblin Charbelcher -- very iffy, but the Swarm was great for me in G2, and I had the Belcher in hand, so I went with it. My Probe on T1 revealed only one counter, a Daze, in his hand (and drew me a Burning Wish), so I cast Land Grant and when I revealed my hand he saw he couldn't counter both of them. He mistakenly let the first resolve so I had Daze protection when the second one was imprinted on the Mox, and he also couldn't Daze the Swarm which I then cast. He did cast Pithing Needle on Belcher, but the Swarm let me Wish without fear for Shattering Spree, and then over the next few turns I built up a few mana producers, cast Belcher, and won when he had lethal on the board. (4-0)

In the finals (vs a 12-post artifact deck), we decided to split.

This version, with 10 win conditions and only 4 cantrips, seemed to work out pretty well. I liked the extra accelerators in Grim Monolith, and even without Manamorphose I never had any real mana color issues. I did mulligan to 6 three times and mulled to 5 twice in 11 total games, but I never felt that having fewer cantrips hindered me. Since I was running 5 artifacts that generally stayed around, I decided to run Trash for Treasure in my wishboard, but it never came up. I think I would consider playing Infernal Tutor in that slot, but then the Manamorphose might be better.

SecondSunrise
01-24-2014, 08:01 AM
Hey Guys, I just now noticed that a Belcher deck has made Top 16 at SCGO Orlando on 12/1/2014!

For reference, here's the link to his decklist:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62558

It is pretty ballsy that he decided to eschew Gitaxian Probe, alltough I guess it does give you more mana with Moxen. In the SB, Bribery is a card I've never seen or thought about in Legacy, but it seems sweet as another way to win against Sneak and Show or Reanimator if you have a Wish in hand.

On a related note, what are everyones thoughts on Diminishing Returns? I can get behind every other card in the SB, but this makes me scratch my head...

Blastoderm
01-24-2014, 09:25 AM
Hey Guys, I just now noticed that a Belcher deck has made Top 16 at SCGO Orlando on 12/1/2014!

For reference, here's the link to his decklist:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62558

It is pretty ballsy that he decided to eschew Gitaxian Probe, alltough I guess it does give you more mana with Moxen. In the SB, Bribery is a card I've never seen or thought about in Legacy, but it seems sweet as another way to win against Sneak and Show or Reanimator if you have a Wish in hand.

On a related note, what are everyones thoughts on Diminishing Returns? I can get behind every other card in the SB, but this makes me scratch my head...

Diminishing Returns is awesome. I remember seeing a really skilled belcher player on an SCG stream a year ago and he used it very effectively. I think he he wasn't able to make enough goblins to go through his opponents creatures. He needed more storm or a belcher. He got there!

Final Fortune
01-24-2014, 12:18 PM
Hey Guys, I just now noticed that a Belcher deck has made Top 16 at SCGO Orlando on 12/1/2014!

For reference, here's the link to his decklist:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62558

It is pretty ballsy that he decided to eschew Gitaxian Probe, alltough I guess it does give you more mana with Moxen. In the SB, Bribery is a card I've never seen or thought about in Legacy, but it seems sweet as another way to win against Sneak and Show or Reanimator if you have a Wish in hand.

On a related note, what are everyones thoughts on Diminishing Returns? I can get behind every other card in the SB, but this makes me scratch my head...

Peoples be stealing my tech yo' :mad:

That aside Diminishing Returns is a pretty necessary card if you're going to play Belcher as a deck in tournaments as opposed to a gold fishing experiment on MTGO, you need another threat for Burning Wish in those situations where you've been stopped, LED is on the table and you're in top deck mode vs something like Jund that stripped you of your Belcher and too many turns can go by for goblins to get there.

Bribery is pretty obvious, because Griselbrand doesn't give a shit about your T3 clock and good luck spinning the wheel on a Draw 7 vs a deck with Force of Will and going off twice.

gregtron
01-24-2014, 12:39 PM
Hi guys !

First of all i want to wish happy new year to every body =)

Pages ago, we were speaking about simulating with computer Belcher's deck. I did one simulator and worked on it until end of november.

Then I made a "report" : here is the link Click me (http://trall3.free.fr/belcher/Belcher.pdf) !!!

In this report, you can find data analysis & statistics about our deck. Feel free to discuss and give me feebacks. I'm not a native speaker so my english might be bad.

I think it's the first time that a study like that has been made.
I hope you'll enjoy it.
I also may share sources (java programm)... I'm pretty sure they "sux" in term of quality of conception despite I got a maths & IT MSc...

Enjoy',
Trall :)


This is really incredible! Nice work, man.

FTW
01-24-2014, 01:35 PM
Anyone think this might do better in the current meta full of -1/-1 effects?


//precursor mana: 20
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

//cantrips: 12
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Manamorphose

//further accel: 16
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

//Win: 12
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths
1 Meditate

//Sideboard: 15
Recross the Paths
Infernal Contract
Tendrils of Agony
Grapeshot
Flame Slash
Hull Breach
Cave-In
Pyroclasm
Empty the Warrens
Nature's Claim
Shattering Spree
Past in Flames
Storm Entity
Pyroblast
Duress


Who needs to play Goblin tokens?

You guys have probably seen this version of Belcher before, but for those who haven't, here's an introduction.

Recross the Paths lets you stack your deck however you want if you have 0 lands. Basically, it's uber-Doomsday. Instead of 11 ways to combo out, you now have 11 ways to Charbelch. Forget making 1/1 tokens that can be killed. Forget passing the turn. You just win now.

Advantages of Recrossing:
-less passing the turn
-doesn't lose to creature hate
-fewer "fizzle hands" (no multiple land grants; no multiple spirit guides + EtW FTL; can use Chrome Mox without imprinting a critical mana source; not wrecked by Stifle as explained below)
-0 lands: Belcher never misses
-better use of sideboard cards: you can set up 1-ofs postboard without needing to wish into them. you can also support non-sorcery answers.

NOTE: You don't have to win with Recross. You can just win with the usual Belcher hand, and you can still Wish into Empty the Warrens if you want. But I'm only going to discuss the Recross paths to victory here since the others should already be well known.

Like Doomsday, you want to resolve Recross the Paths with mana floating and cantrips in hand. The exact pile you set up depends on the cantrips you have and the extra mana, if any.

BASIC BELCH KILL PILE:
----top of library----
*Street Wraith (only if you need to win clash to get Recross back, for imprinting on Chrome Mox or w/e)
*Setup1 (remaining mana needed to cast Meditate: LED, Manamorphose or Lotus Petal usually)
Meditate
LED
LED
Setup2 (usually an SSG/ESG/Petal/LED, but if you have extra mana floating this can be a hate-removal card like Cave-In or whatever)
Street Wraith
Goblin Charbelcher
*LED (if you expect Stifle, no harm in a back-up LED to Belch again next turn. also good if opponent Spell Pierces/Dazes Belcher and you run out of mana)
----bottom of library----

Each * represents an optional slot.

Easy guide to setup 1:
If you have 3 mana floating and 1 cantrip, setup1 = Manamorphose
If you have 0 mana floating and 2 cantrips, setup1 = LED
If you have 2 mana floating and 2 cantrips, setup1 = Street Wraith + Chrome Mox (better to save LEDs for other parts of the chain)
If you have 1 mana floating and Rite of Flame in GY and 2 cantrips, setup1 = Rite of Flame + Manamorphose

If you have less, you probably can't go off this turn and should set up a pass-the-turn pile (Wraith + LED on top of Meditate)

Here's how some of the piles would play out.

Example 1: you have 0 mana floating and 2 cantrips in hand after resolving Recross:
LED
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

You cantrip once. Drop LED. Cantrip again, popping LED in response for UUU. Draw and cast Meditate. Drop LEDs and Petal. Cycle Wraith, popping for 7 mana in response. Draw and activate Charbelcher. If you only had 1 cantrip in hand instead of 2, you can make this a "pass the turn" pile.

Example 2: you have RR floating, Chrome Mox in hand and only 1 cantrip
Street Wraith
Manamorphose
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

You win the clash off Recross (usually). Drop Chrome Mox, imprinting Recross, GRR in pool. Use cantrip to draw Street Wraith. Street Wraith to draw Manamorphose. Manamorphose to convert your mana into URR. Cast Meditate. Etc. Win.


Example 3: you have 2 mana floating, only 1 cantrip, and Meditate stuck in hand
Manamorphose
Rite of Flame
LED
LED
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

Cantrip into Manamorphose, making UR and drawing Rite of Flame. Rite of Flame up to at least URR. Cast Meditate FTW.

Contrary to what Griffin Hansen said, you don't auto-lose with Meditate in hand. You just can't use the LED+2cantrip set-ups.



If you have fewer resources, you can still set up a kill in a few turns as a Hail Mary. Passing the turn 2 times and Belching immediately may actually not be worse than casting Empty the Warrens for 8-12 this turn.

Example 4: you have 0 mana floating and no cantrips
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Meditate
LED
LED
SSG
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

This involves passing the turn twice. But then, when you have LED and Probe, you can cantrip into Meditate, cast Meditate, and Charbelch FTW. This shows you can still set up a 2-turn win even with 0 resources post-Recross, making mulligans to 5-6 and playing through Daze not auto-losses. Keep in mind EtW takes at least 2 attacks to win so this "bad case" is not any slower. Also, with even one cantrip you only have to pass the turn once.


Example 5: you have 0 mana floating and 1 Street Wraith. opponent has Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist but no other clock.
SSG
Seething Song
Cave-In
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Meditate
LED
LED
ESG
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

You pass the turn and take 4. Draw SSG. Take 4. Draw Seething Song. Street Wraith into Cave-In, pitch Seething Song and use SSG to cast Cave-In to kill the hatebears and any other dorks. Pass the turn. LED. Pass the turn. Probe into Meditate FTW. Yeah, yeah, it takes 4 turns. But it beats just losing to double storm hate.



If opponent drops Needles or Revokers or has some other kind of protection from Belcher, you CAN set up convoluted piles with extra mana and extra card draw and Burning Wishes to find answers, but it's easier to just Tendrils them instead.

BASIC TENDRILS PILE
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
Flex Slot
Gitaxian Probe
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Burning Wish
----bottom of pile----

Top two cards are as discussed earlier to set up Meditate. Crack LEDs for RRRGGG, Probe to see opponent's grip to ensure the coast is clear, cantrip to build storm count, converting to have at least 2 black mana, and then Tendrils with storm 10+. Note that Wish for Tendrils only takes 6 mana (2 LEDs) instead of the 7 for Belcher, so you have a flex slot for either more mana (to play around spell pierce/daze) or for an anti-hate card if you have the resources floating to cast it.


If you need to Tendrils through Leyline or some other hate, you can make this pile:
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish
LED
Lotus Petal
answer card
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Burning Wish
----bottom of pile----

Meditate into triple LED for RRRGGGBBB. Probe into Wish into Infernal Contract, drawing four with RRGG floating. Lotus Petal. Cast your answer card (Pyroclasm, Nature's Claim, Wish into something, whatever). LED for BBB, cantrip to build storm, Tendrils for 15+ storm.


If you need to kill a Leyline AND win around Gaddock Teeg, the last pile works too, but Grapeshot might be easier.
BASIC GRAPESHOT PILE
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish --> Infernal Contract
Seething Song
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Burning Wish -> Hull Breach
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
*Gitaxian Probe/Manamorphose
Burning Wish -> Grapeshot
----bottom of pile----

Make RRRGGGBBB with LEDs. After Infernal Contract, you have RRGG left. Double Seething Song up to RRRRRRRG, Wish into Hull Breach with RRRR left, cantrip some more, then Wish into Grapeshot for 20.


If opponent has Needle/Revoker on LED or Null Rod or a Deed/EE@0 or some other artifact hate to stop you from using triple LED, you can do this:

RITE OF FLAME PILE -- Needs +1 initial mana or 1 Rite of Flame already in graveyard
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
Rite of Flame/SSG
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Goblin Charbelcher (or 4 Manamorphose + Burning Wish + Tendrils)
----bottom of pile----

Triple Rite of Flame = 7 red mana, the magic number. You just need an additional 1 red precursor mana. If you already cast 1 Rite of Flame before Recross the Paths, you don't need the extra mana -- you can just use an SSG to get started, your 2 Rites will conveniently net +5 mana up to 6, and then you can pick the Tendrils win. Also a nice way to beat Null Rod.


Finally, I will post one pile of hilarity (Requiring slightly different deck configuration -- 1 Faithless Looting in SB and boarded in):

The LOLpile:
----top of pile----
*Street Wraith
*Setup1
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract
Seething Song
LED
Faithless Looting
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Past in Flames
Seething Song
Seething Song
Seething Song
Desperate Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Burning Wish --> Answer card 1
Burning Wish --> Answer card 2
Answer card 3
Answer card 4
Lotus Petal
Burning Wish
----bottom of pile----

Alright, what in the hell's name is this monstrosity? First thing's first: close the blinds, because this is some hardcore masturbating.
Meditate as usual, stack Probe and crack the LEDs for RRRGGGBBB.
Wish into Infernal Contract and draw 4.
Cast Seething Song up to RRRRRG.
Faithless Looting, discarding 2 Rite of Flame.
Flashback Faithless Looting discarding 2 Rite of Flame, with RG left.
Manamorphose and crack LED for RRR (plus RR when Manamorphose resolves).
Manamorphose some more.
Draw into Past in Flames and cast it with R floating.
Quad Rite of Flame and Seething Song up to 13 red mana.
Manamorphose 4 times to draw 4 cards and filter your mana into whatever colors you want (making sure to create at least BBBBU).
Cast the 3 Seething Songs up to 19 mana.
Cast Meditate to draw 4, down to 16 mana.
Cast Infernal Contact to draw 4, down to 13 mana.
Cast quadruple Desperate Ritual, Splicing onto Arcane as much as possible. That should bring you to 23 mana if done correctly.
Burning Wish for Pyroclasm to kill all hatebears. (19 mana)
Burning Wish for Hull Breach or Shattering Spree to kill a bunch of hate permanents. (13-15 mana)
Cast 2 more kill spells for the hell of it. (10+ mana)
Flashback Past in Flames. (5+ mana)
Flashback triple Seething Song and Quad Desperate Ritual for +10 mana. (15+ mana)
Flashback some more kill spells. (5+ mana)
Lotus Petal and pop for B.
Flashback Probe into Burning Wish.
Tendrils/Grapeshot with storm 57+

You probably never need that pile ever. But if you want to kill a whole crapload of random protection and 5 players at once, who's to stop you?

If anyone can pull that off on video at a tournament, you get my mad props 4 LIFE.

paeng4983
01-25-2014, 02:24 AM
@Feline
Can you please include the information above from FTW in your primer page.
Its a nice contribution for this thread.

Thank you.

feline
01-25-2014, 03:35 AM
I am leaving for Baltimore shortly for the Sunday portion, though I usually check messages here daily / etc. Saw a notification about here and read the "recross the paths" belcher noted above, I know Griffen Hansen did a version with recross the paths last year, there's even an article & tournament report about it in the primer, but his version still ran Empty the Warrens I believe.

To the list above, that's an even more recross the paths focused version. I am going to implement that into the primer in a recross the paths section, but I won't be able to do much more as I'm leaving literally today. Luckily however, it looks like you've done a lot of the work for me explaining everything, so if it's alright I'm going to just copy & past it as is. Thank you FTW, just reading that makes me want to play belcher again and try that out, I'm certain with enough attention someone will now, I've always liked Spanish Inquisition because if had a higher turn 1 kill, but to implement a higher turn 1 kill % into belcher which is a more consistent combo deck, as well as having the success in the past to back it up (in the finals twice, but no trophy, yet) it's just overall awesome!

-edit- for the record, I got snowed in in Cleveland, no Baltimore this time around, so watched from home and did more alters.

FTW
01-27-2014, 02:13 AM
Thanks Feline! I love to see players doing well with Belcher. You've written a fantastic primer here and I'm glad to be able to contribute to it, even with just a fringe strategy.

I noticed a few errors in my post so I cleaned it up a bit, explained Setup1 more clearly, and added some alternate piles.

ph88
01-27-2014, 03:05 AM
i don't play belcher, nor do i plan on playing belcher, but i just had to come say that that post by FTW was some seriously epic shit.

Mindlash
02-07-2014, 11:25 AM
Hi guys !

First of all i want to wish happy new year to every body =)

Pages ago, we were speaking about simulating with computer Belcher's deck. I did one simulator and worked on it until end of november.

Then I made a "report" : here is the link Click me (http://trall3.free.fr/belcher/Belcher.pdf) !!!

In this report, you can find data analysis & statistics about our deck. Feel free to discuss and give me feebacks. I'm not a native speaker so my english might be bad.

I think it's the first time that a study like that has been made.
I hope you'll enjoy it.
I also may share sources (java programm)... I'm pretty sure they "sux" in term of quality of conception despite I got a maths & IT MSc...

Enjoy',
Trall :)

Thanks for your work! It was a good read. I will definitely test out your suggestions. I will propably doing something like this:

Lands
1 Taiga

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Spells
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm

I am not sure about the win condition split. 4 Charbelchers are set for sure but what are the benefits of 4 wishes and 2 empties vs 3 of both. Empty the Warrens works better to battle counters though most lists I see go with 4 wishes. Is it because of more storm or better accessibility to the sideboard?

I am also not sure if 2 Chrome Mox is too low...but I don't know whatelse to cut.

Any opinions on these points?

Enjoy the weekend.

Greetings Chris

Blastoderm
02-08-2014, 10:58 PM
@Mindlash

I think in grindy matchups like games 2 and 3 against tempo you'll want chrome mox. You'll find permanent mana sources really useful which is why i also include a forest in the sideboard (so I can land grant for it without fear of wasteland and multiple land grands aren't dead over the course of the game either).

I'm not sure about the 2 vs 3 empty the warrens. I'm playing your list -2 pyretic ritual, +1 chrome mox +1 empty. Sideboard I think I would do -2 pyroblast +2 carpet of flowers. Again, permanent mana sources are good! Carpet being especially good because it will help shut off soft counters like spell pierce and daze. Don't forget it can be used the turn you play it (by going to second main phase!) Pyroblast will stop one counter (basically useless vs daze) while carpet basically stops everything but force of will. It will also help with mana for late burning wishes you draw, and color fixing to grab diminishing returns as you'll most likely side out manamorphose in g2 and g3.

I am unsure about siding in xantid swarm in against RUG and UWR as they keep bolts in. It's great against esperblade, show and tell and miracles though! What are your thoughts?

4 burning wish is somewhat necessary I think. Especially when they side in hate. Hull Breach is a card you could look at for the sideboard (I've killed a leyline and pithing needle with it...felt so good!)

GoldenCid
02-09-2014, 03:59 PM
Have you guys tried Lotus Bloom yet in the board? I've been using it in PSI and it works quite well, though SI plays more business. You could probably play a 3/3 split of Carpet/Bloom, cut down on the unnecessary BW board a bit, and then run some additional protection so you can ensure that your business connects.

This is probably true. Why do you think people play much more belcher than PSI?

Cruel bargain cost? 0.o

Trall
02-09-2014, 05:31 PM
I am not sure about the win condition split. 4 Charbelchers are set for sure but what are the benefits of 4 wishes and 2 empties vs 3 of both. Empty the Warrens works better to battle counters though most lists I see go with 4 wishes. Is it because of more storm or better accessibility to the sideboard?

I am also not sure if 2 Chrome Mox is too low...but I don't know whatelse to cut.

Any opinions on these points?

Enjoy the weekend.

Greetings Chris

If you play b wish version, You HAVE TO play 4. Otherwise it's just a waste of design space. Tutoring artifact / enchant hate is very very powerful and having access to +2/+4 goblins for "free" is a must. Seriously, a good player will counter the "good" spell, depending of the card you have in hand and the mana floating.

Chrome mox has to be beetween 2 and 3. I like 3 even if on game 1 it slows us a little. In attrition game (game 2&3 of after a fow) it's really good to have permanent mana sources as stated before !

Seriously, don't play 11 business spell (or may be in HEAVY discard meta when you want to top deck another one, 10 is statiscally enough).

For the PSI question, PSI fizzle more than BELCHER. If you want to play another glass canon deck, I guess Oops is the one to play after Belcher but I won't recommand any one to play PSI (nothing to do with the 30$ price tag from bargain)

GoldenCid
02-09-2014, 06:03 PM
For the PSI question, PSI fizzle more than BELCHER. If you want to play another glass canon deck, I guess Oops is the one to play after Belcher but I won't recommand any one to play PSI (nothing to do with the 30$ price tag from bargain)

I'm not pretty sure of this. Belcher has very good t1/2 hands but PSI has better win cond in my opinion...

Mindlash
02-10-2014, 05:13 AM
@Mindlash

I think in grindy matchups like games 2 and 3 against tempo you'll want chrome mox. You'll find permanent mana sources really useful which is why i also include a forest in the sideboard (so I can land grant for it without fear of wasteland and multiple land grands aren't dead over the course of the game either).

I'm not sure about the 2 vs 3 empty the warrens. I'm playing your list -2 pyretic ritual, +1 chrome mox +1 empty. Sideboard I think I would do -2 pyroblast +2 carpet of flowers. Again, permanent mana sources are good! Carpet being especially good because it will help shut off soft counters like spell pierce and daze. Don't forget it can be used the turn you play it (by going to second main phase!) Pyroblast will stop one counter (basically useless vs daze) while carpet basically stops everything but force of will. It will also help with mana for late burning wishes you draw, and color fixing to grab diminishing returns as you'll most likely side out manamorphose in g2 and g3.

I am unsure about siding in xantid swarm in against RUG and UWR as they keep bolts in. It's great against esperblade, show and tell and miracles though! What are your thoughts?

4 burning wish is somewhat necessary I think. Especially when they side in hate. Hull Breach is a card you could look at for the sideboard (I've killed a leyline and pithing needle with it...felt so good!)

Permanent mana sources are important...especially for Belcher activations and so on. I will try to cut another card for the 3rd mox. I thought about Seething Song...it has high mana cost und you die instantly most of the time it gets countered. On the other hand it has the strongest mana gain.

Carpet is a nice card. I have never played it in Belcher so far. Using it in ANT most of the time. They might be good against RUG Delver and the likes in Belcher too.

As of now I use swarms against decks who are not likely to keep their removal in or do not play removal at all. Sneak Show, Merfolk, High Tide and probably those you mentioned. Against RUG and other delver decks I use Pyroblasts.

I've cut Hull Breach for Infernal Tutor. I do not now how good it is as of now. I just used it once in the mirror to tutor for belcher and shoot him instantly...although it used up quite a good chunk of mana :D
I didn't want to cut Reverent Silence nor Shattering Spree because they can handle multiple artifacts/enchantments.


If you play b wish version, You HAVE TO play 4. Otherwise it's just a waste of design space. Tutoring artifact / enchant hate is very very powerful and having access to +2/+4 goblins for "free" is a must. Seriously, a good player will counter the "good" spell, depending of the card you have in hand and the mana floating.

Chrome mox has to be beetween 2 and 3. I like 3 even if on game 1 it slows us a little. In attrition game (game 2&3 of after a fow) it's really good to have permanent mana sources as stated before !

Seriously, don't play 11 business spell (or may be in HEAVY discard meta when you want to top deck another one, 10 is statiscally enough).

You have access to 6 goblin spells in either combination as I plan to play a combined 6 of them and a total of 10 wincons.
Most players counter your wish/belcher and/or try to prevent you from getting to 4 mana because countering empty is not that good ;)
You can just reach 4 mana by going from 3 to 4 with the help of spirit guides. But I agree that using 4 wishes makes more sense to get use of the wishboard (which is apart from empty, dim ret and tutor dead most of the time).

Ok so 3 Chrome Mox seems to be prefered. Any ideas what to cut for Manamorphose? -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Pyretic Ritual. So whats best to cut here so get in the whole playset?

Thanks for the answers and opinions so far.

Regards Chris

Final Fortune
02-10-2014, 05:31 AM
I don't think there's anything significantly better than the 11th win condition that really warrants being played, also personally I hate Seething Song and Manamorphose and would never play them over Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle anymore because accelerants that are immune to Spell Pierce are underrated. I also think 4 Chrome Mox is just always better than 3, resolving Belcher doesn't assure you victory when Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grips are getting thrown around.

Blastoderm
02-10-2014, 01:11 PM
I don't think there's anything significantly better than the 11th win condition that really warrants being played, also personally I hate Seething Song and Manamorphose and would never play them over Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle anymore because accelerants that are immune to Spell Pierce are underrated. I also think 4 Chrome Mox is just always better than 3, resolving Belcher doesn't assure you victory when Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grips are getting thrown around.

Agreed on manamorphose and seething song. They're annoying to have sometimes but I think manamorphose is necessary to build storm and to consistently get green mana to cast tinder wall. If manamorphose is to be cut, it would be harder to cast off-color spells from the SB (infernal tutor, diminishing returns).

I was currently thinking about more pyretic rituals instead of seething song. Currently I run a typical list (4 of everything, 3 chrome mox, 1 pyretic ritual).
If you notice, some SCG lists have cut gitaxian probe in the favor of pyretic ritual but I'm not sure if this is correct.

Trall
02-10-2014, 04:47 PM
Seriously I'm asking if some of you have read my report (http://trall3.free.fr/belcher/Belcher.pdf) I posted on last page.

You MUSN'T* play 4 chrome mox
You HAVE TO* play SS & Manamorphose

(* if you wan't to maximize turn 1 win / crazyness which is the main aim of any Belcher deck. If you disagrea, move on TES / ANT / DDFT)

For the SS, sure it stop us cold while getting countered. But that what the deck does. If you are against a field with 70%+ tempo, drop and take a nap. Belcher will lose SS or not... It's like "ok I have a deck that lose vs FOW, but I don't want to lose that hard" :D Just build a deck that is designed to do what it does : THE BEST ON TURN 1, nothing more nothing less ! We don't have silence / duress to go through this. We have to respect the 40% likehood our opponent has a FOW on his oppening seven (with another blue card)

About the "trix" to go for ETW with 3 mana and Guide... Most of times you'll get 6/10 goblins dying to t1 drs followed by T2 anything (SFM ?). To be faily safe, we have to go for 12+ gobs on T1. Build without card listed before won't be able to achieve this goal ocnsitently and will die to FOW, and also to SFM / DRS & co.

And btw when you cast Diminishing R. It's almost always on a LED activation, not a manamoprhose taking UU >_<

About chancellor & monolith I have to admit I'm not sure about them since I didn't test. But seriously, I dont think having a green mana without storm is good enough [but it seems very fine with him + mox]. For the grim, the +1 mana is colorless... Why don't simply play P.Rit since it achieve the same goal ?

For the 11th business spell... Do the maths (or read my doc' if you don't want to). 9 should be enough. 10 is OK, 11 is too much... Unless again you play in a discard heavy meta ! You wan't 1 in oppening. Not 2 (wich is equal to a free mull to 6 since you won't play 99.99% of the time the 2 wincon you have in hand)

Ps : Sneak & show side in pyroclasm to take care of our gob's... And it'll also shoot x.swarm

Final Fortune
02-10-2014, 04:54 PM
Belcher is just a deck that functions on win conditions and mana and it doesn't really need Manamorphose to build storm or filter colors for Tinder Wall - I already play Pyretic Ritual because Gitaxian Probe was always garbage. Chrome Mox is really important if you want to activate Belcher on your following turn, there are plenty of decks that will just kill you or blow up your Belcher if you think you can just resolve it and wait around until you have the mana in hand.

Trall
02-10-2014, 05:00 PM
I already play Pyretic Ritual because Gitaxian Probe was always garbage

How can you say Probe is garbage ?

Free storm, free info (= you know you can go for the win or know HOW TO BAIT without losing that much ressources...) Free stuff on PIF plan, Yeah garbage. (The only drawback = you can't know the card you'll draw of it :( )

Tell me what's the avg storm count you have with 0 probe & 0 manamorphse ? 4.X ?

Belcher = 40% on wincon (assuming 4/10)
ETW = 60%. Most of time you'll win with goblins. My bet is winning with 12.5 on avg is easier than winning with 8.5. I may be wrong... :eyebrow:

Blastoderm
02-10-2014, 08:49 PM
Seriously I'm asking if some of you have read my report (http://trall3.free.fr/belcher/Belcher.pdf) I posted on last page.

You MUSN'T* play 4 chrome mox
You HAVE TO* play SS & Manamorphose

(* if you wan't to maximize turn 1 win / crazyness which is the main aim of any Belcher deck. If you disagrea, move on TES / ANT / DDFT)

For the SS, sure it stop us cold while getting countered. But that what the deck does. If you are against a field with 70%+ tempo, drop and take a nap. Belcher will lose SS or not... It's like "ok I have a deck that lose vs FOW, but I don't want to lose that hard" :D Just build a deck that is designed to do what it does : THE BEST ON TURN 1, nothing more nothing less ! We don't have silence / duress to go through this. We have to respect the 40% likehood our opponent has a FOW on his oppening seven (with another blue card)

About the "trix" to go for ETW with 3 mana and Guide... Most of times you'll get 6/10 goblins dying to t1 drs followed by T2 anything (SFM ?). To be faily safe, we have to go for 12+ gobs on T1. Build without card listed before won't be able to achieve this goal ocnsitently and will die to FOW, and also to SFM / DRS & co.

And btw when you cast Diminishing R. It's almost always on a LED activation, not a manamoprhose taking UU >_<

About chancellor & monolith I have to admit I'm not sure about them since I didn't test. But seriously, I dont think having a green mana without storm is good enough [but it seems very fine with him + mox]. For the grim, the +1 mana is colorless... Why don't simply play P.Rit since it achieve the same goal ?

For the 11th business spell... Do the maths (or read my doc' if you don't want to). 9 should be enough. 10 is OK, 11 is too much... Unless again you play in a discard heavy meta ! You wan't 1 in oppening. Not 2 (wich is equal to a free mull to 6 since you won't play 99.99% of the time the 2 wincon you have in hand)

Ps : Sneak & show side in pyroclasm to take care of our gob's... And it'll also shoot x.swarm

How does DRS do anything besides block one per turn?

Final Fortune
02-10-2014, 10:25 PM
How can you say Probe is garbage ?

Free storm, free info (= you know you can go for the win or know HOW TO BAIT without losing that much ressources...) Free stuff on PIF plan, Yeah garbage. (The only drawback = you can't know the card you'll draw of it :( )

Tell me what's the avg storm count you have with 0 probe & 0 manamorphse ? 4.X ?

Belcher = 40% on wincon (assuming 4/10)
ETW = 60%. Most of time you'll win with goblins. My bet is winning with 12.5 on avg is easier than winning with 8.5. I may be wrong... :eyebrow:

What is the value of free information for a linear combo deck compared to free mana for a linear combo deck? You should already know how to bait counters without losing as much resources as possible because you should already take into consiteration counters like Daze and Spell Pierce etc. This isn't Storm, the efficacy of Empty the Warrens decreases dramatically with every passing turn so playing around counters by passing turns is ultimately self defeating.

I really don't care what % of Storm Gitaxian Probe or Manamorphose add because I can't properly evaluate an X -1 card hand when I draw or mulligan into them, the deck used to kill people just fine without the added storm count and it still does kill people just fine without the added storm count as it's quite rare for it to be any less than 5. Those cards are completely unnecessary.

Trall
02-11-2014, 04:02 PM
How does DRS do anything besides block one per turn?

Blocking one per turn when you have 8 or less gob's might result into an extra turn clock. And eating tinder wall can put you in trouble when they are buying time to dig into SFM / Bskull or jitte or...


What is the value of free information for a linear combo deck compared to free mana for a linear combo deck? You should already know how to bait counters without losing as much resources as possible because you should already take into consiteration counters like Daze and Spell Pierce etc. This isn't Storm, the efficacy of Empty the Warrens decreases dramatically with every passing turn so playing around counters by passing turns is ultimately self defeating.

While I have to agree with you (since you are 100% correct), the mana fixing from manamorphose is really helpfull. Infernal tutor might be a +, but fixing for tinder wall is really good. I dislike the fact that some times you spend 2 mana and draw like shit (ex : another kill) but hey, that's why you play 10 business spells. Once on have 1 in hand, you are less likely to draw another one.

And the "free" storm count really matters when people tend to play high quality blockers these days...

Oh and I may forgot, but manamorphose under chrome mox (very rare but happens) = really good at starting hand with either a rit or a tinder wall. If only we had a spell like R ad RR to your pool, it'll be different... But we only have a set of RoF

Feel free to test, feel free to goldfish. I have done millions hands and I'm faily sure about what I say

Namida
02-11-2014, 09:22 PM
Feel free to test, feel free to goldfish. I have done millions hands and I'm faily sure about what I say

Let me ask: In your millions of hands did you pay attention to these two things?
How many times have you kept a hand because you banked on Probe/Manamorphose turning into a certain type of card?
How many times have you mulliganned a hand because you had too many wild cards in your opener and you couldn't properly evaluate what your hand could do?

I find it strange that you think the purpose of playing the deck is to maximize the turn one win while also somehow thinking it makes sense to build the deck in such a way to allow yourself to lose even a single game because you couldn't properly evaluate what your opening hand could do on turn one. While you dislike that sometimes you "draw like shit," I find it downright unacceptable, so I don't put the cards in my deck that allow it to happen.

Blastoderm
02-12-2014, 09:32 AM
While I'm keeping probe, I'm for sure cutting manamorphose. After playing the deck for a while I've decided that I absolutely hate this card. Having to topdeck seething song late game is bad enough without this garbage. After testing with pyretic rituals in its place, I'm never looking back. I'm playing 4 chrome mox at the moment, not sure what to add if I cut one but I find the extra permanent mana source game 2/3 to be quite helpful.

Oh and carpet of flowers is insane against tempo. It makes casting diminishing returns so much easier. I'll consider playing past in flames as well for this reason. My maindeck is 4 of everything, 3 empty as usual. My sb is the following:

Burning wish targets:
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in flames
1 Diminishing Returns

Blue Sb:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 pyroblast
2 Carpet of flowers
1 forest

Trall
02-12-2014, 04:17 PM
Let me ask: In your millions of hands did you pay attention to these two things?
How many times have you kept a hand because you banked on Probe/Manamorphose turning into a certain type of card?
How many times have you mulliganned a hand because you had too many wild cards in your opener and you couldn't properly evaluate what your hand could do?


Have you read my paper ? Cause in the "shitty hand", this case appear. And after testing without manamorphse I can tell you that you musn't take em of. I mean there is nothing better happening while decreasing the AVG of gob's...

About the number of "wild card". On average you'll have 1 per hand. In this case there is not a lot of "information loss" while keeping 6 + probe vs 7 (even if there is 1 card hidden for sure !)

About my algo,it is plain simple : no business spells = mulligan. If I have one I keep and play (most of time I do smth, sometimes I don't). In real life, you'll wait a turn or 2 but that's not what I'm testing.

Seriously, all spells exept 10 (and multiple LG) are +1 mana source. Casting probe will get you a MS in 44/53 % of case (assuming you have 1 business spell in hand). If you have a chrome mox, the 2nd BP will go under it so what are you affrais of ? The 10% "bad draw" that may happend ?

Oh and even drawing a 2nd business spell does'n mean you fizzle... 4 MS + ETW + PROBE + what ever you want will still get you ETW, with 2 free gobs :)

Ps : On the info gained, you told me it's unnecessary since we can't ajust our play. That's not false, but don't forget good player will scoop vs 16 gobs without showing us anything. Knowing that they play RUG or w/e enable us to side accordingly. Don't underestimate free information, free storm at minimum cost (even if it has a cost :) )

@Blastoderm : I like your side, but I'll recommand you to always go for 4 * swarm. Exept vs RUG (they keep bolt) it's a "counter me spell or get ready to suffer" :)

Final Fortune
02-12-2014, 04:58 PM
Are other people on the SBing out Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond plan post-board? The entire point of playing Chancellor of the Tangle, Pyretic Ritual and Grim Monolith is that you're cutting 7 cards from your deck, 7 considering your SBing in the 4th Empty the Warrens, in order to play 7 blasts on the draw and have a chance in hell vs blue. Otherwise on the play you're SBing in Chancellor of the Annex on the play and Force Spiking them. Xantid Swarm is kind of self defeating, you can't afford to wait a turn vs anything playing Batterskull.

Blastoderm
02-12-2014, 05:25 PM
Are other people on the SBing out Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond plan post-board? The entire point of playing Chancellor of the Tangle, Pyretic Ritual and Grim Monolith is that you're cutting 7 cards from your deck, 7 considering your SBing in the 4th Empty the Warrens, in order to play 7 blasts on the draw and have a chance in hell vs blue. Otherwise on the play you're SBing in Chancellor of the Annex on the play and Force Spiking them. Xantid Swarm is kind of self defeating, you can't afford to wait a turn vs anything playing Batterskull.

All I know is that you die to turn 2 stoneforge on the draw if you have 12 goblins or less. You beat turn two stoneforge with 14 goblins if they don't play another creature. The issue with waiting a turn could be present with blasts as well if you're short on mana. I'll give it a try though.

Blastoderm
02-12-2014, 05:27 PM
Have you read my paper ? Cause in the "shitty hand", this case appear. And after testing without manamorphse I can tell you that you musn't take em of. I mean there is nothing better happening while decreasing the AVG of gob's...

About the number of "wild card". On average you'll have 1 per hand. In this case there is not a lot of "information loss" while keeping 6 + probe vs 7 (even if there is 1 card hidden for sure !)

About my algo,it is plain simple : no business spells = mulligan. If I have one I keep and play (most of time I do smth, sometimes I don't). In real life, you'll wait a turn or 2 but that's not what I'm testing.

Seriously, all spells exept 10 (and multiple LG) are +1 mana source. Casting probe will get you a MS in 44/53 % of case (assuming you have 1 business spell in hand). If you have a chrome mox, the 2nd BP will go under it so what are you affrais of ? The 10% "bad draw" that may happend ?

Oh and even drawing a 2nd business spell does'n mean you fizzle... 4 MS + ETW + PROBE + what ever you want will still get you ETW, with 2 free gobs :)

Ps : On the info gained, you told me it's unnecessary since we can't ajust our play. That's not false, but don't forget good player will scoop vs 16 gobs without showing us anything. Knowing that they play RUG or w/e enable us to side accordingly. Don't underestimate free information, free storm at minimum cost (even if it has a cost :) )

@Blastoderm : I like your side, but I'll recommand you to always go for 4 * swarm. Exept vs RUG (they keep bolt) it's a "counter me spell or get ready to suffer" :)

So I don't side in swarms at all vs RUG/UWR?

paeng4983
02-24-2014, 08:27 PM
We had a small legacy (4 rounder) tournament last weekend.
My matches were as follows:

Jund 2-0
Mavs 2-0
Junk 2-1
UB Reanimator 2-1

The other decks that were there: elves, ub reanimator, two mono R goblins, mono B sui and sneaky show.


This coming March two is our scheduled monthly big legacy tournament at Kick Engine's hobby shop in Cubao QC.
Im expecting a meta of sneaky show, miracle, BUG and URW-TNN.
Is belcher a good choice?

JPoJohnson
02-24-2014, 08:34 PM
We had a small legacy (4 rounder) tournament last weekend.
My matches were as follows:

Jund 2-0
Mavs 2-0
Junk 2-1
UB Reanimator 2-1

The other decks that were there: elves, ub reanimator, two mono R goblins, mono B sui and sneaky show.


This coming March two is our scheduled monthly big legacy tournament at Kick Engine's hobby shop in Cubao QC.
Im expecting a meta of sneaky show, miracle, BUG and URW-TNN.
Is belcher a good choice?

All decks with FoW/Spell Pierce? Not the ideal meta for a Belcher deck.

ahg113
02-24-2014, 10:09 PM
GREENSDAY


//Sideboard: 15
Recross the Paths
Infernal Contract
Tendrils of Agony
Grapeshot
Flame Slash
Hull Breach
Cave-In
Pyroclasm
Empty the Warrens
Nature's Claim
Shattering Spree
Past in Flames
Storm Entity
Pyroblast
Duress


I'm assembling this configuration and had some questions about the sideboard. Specifically - Flame Slash, Cave-In, Storm Entity, Pyroblast and Duress. Are these catch-all types better than Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers. I've been a fan of a Stone Rain in the board for the corner case Energy Field, because Miracles is the worst. I get that Infernal Tutor and Diminishing Returns are superfluous since we can stack the deck with RtP.

It feels weird, but I like it. Dropping trou with Land Grant isn't my favorite thing to do. And I agree that there are easy ways to wipe the board of tokens, not to mention with as many Batterskulls (SFM) out there, a critical number of 16 is needed post haste.

Cheers,
T0 wins are best in life

Vacrix
02-24-2014, 10:41 PM
What do you guys think of a potential man plan based around GSZ, Natural Order, and Carpet of Flowers..

Perhaps..

SB
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Child of Alara
1 Progenitus

I say Child of Alara because it curves out with GSZ at 6.. which is workable much like BW into EtW at 6 mana, and its only XG, X being 5. Natural Order would have to be supported by a build, I was thinking, with X to 4 maindeck Xantid Swarms. Then there would be 4 LG, 4 GSZ, and X to 4 Xantid's in the maindeck as options to support Natural Order.

The good thing about this plan is that Carpets are deadly when you consider that GSZ's shuffle/recycle, meaning that if you land 1 or 2 Carpets, the deck will have more business floating around even if the GSZ's get countered. This means that Carpet is more than a one time ritual; its a perpetual resource that allows you to combo off into your man plan with more than one try.

Child of Alara seems good because it can blow the board if they kill it somehow.

I'm not entirely sure on how to balance the board, but I think its the freshest take on a Belcher sideboard I've come up with in a while. A GSZ and Natural Order is business that works in the same hand.. ie. Dryad Arbor via GSZ, and then Natural Order is 5 mana for a Progenitus. Or if you have LG, or a Xantid Swarm in hand instead, you can go that route for NO. GSZ and targets might be a better call then playing Natural Order and instead just play 1 Xantid in the maindeck, and then load up the board with Carpets, a Forest, and a bunch of GSZ dudes like Deus of Calamity. Thats also 6 mana for a dude.. but with Carpets, the GSZ's will recycle. GSZ turning into Xantid Swarm for a Belcher line of play seems pretty strong as well.

feline
03-17-2014, 05:48 AM
Jeremy Chestnut playing Belcher at SCGSEA finished 19th, they went 7-2, and last round, cast Bribery and stole a griselbrand from an opponent to win the game. Wasn't expecting to see that!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64878

A special thank you to the guys behind the scenes at Starcitygames.com, I requested they posted this person and their list because they got so close, so thank you again Starcitygames!

kavaki
03-24-2014, 01:53 AM
Can someone explain the Garruk, Primal Hunter in Yurien Seyssel's SB?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65257

feline
03-24-2014, 03:18 AM
I talked to him about that at the event, basically that Garruk isn't a real slot & should be something else or he had it in there as a joke or whatever.

Blastoderm
03-24-2014, 01:30 PM
Check out the SB by Zakk:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65262

(side note: two belcher decks in top16 youppi!)

Notice that he has 0 Xantid Swarm. I've been leaning towards this decision for a while now because of two things:

1. Decks with bolt always keep their bolts in (UWR, Jund, Rug).
2. People are bad at this game.

I played vs Miracles and this guy KEEPS IN ALL FOUR SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES. I ask him why and he's like you bring in xantid swarms. Really? He swords two swarms and I lose. This was repeated vs deathblade. All four stp once again.

Now I'm not sure if 7 pyroblasts is they way to go (I guess it's fine since he also sideboards in lands for extra mana which help cast his blood moons as well). Personally I would play 4 pyroblasts and 4 carpet of flowers. Carpet is insane. I win games through a truckload of soft counters. Burning wishes become so much easier to cast (to get diminishing returns if my hand is empty), drawing multiple charbelchers is also welcome! What do you guys think?

FTW
03-26-2014, 01:19 AM
I'm disappointed that Garruk wasn't AtogAtog

Yeah, I personally love Carpet of Flowers for ANT and it would be the first thing I would replace Xantid Swarm with. Definitely before going to 7 redblasts. That many redblasts means you having to keep EXTRA mana before comboing off (and lets you sandbag fewer rituals in hand), making you weaker to soft counters. Carpet makes you stronger against soft counters and lets you randomly win off EtW even if a Ritual gets countered.

Blastoderm
03-26-2014, 09:22 AM
I'm disappointed that Garruk wasn't AtogAtog

Yeah, I personally love Carpet of Flowers for ANT and it would be the first thing I would replace Xantid Swarm with. Definitely before going to 7 redblasts. That many redblasts means you having to keep EXTRA mana before comboing off (and lets you sandbag fewer rituals in hand), making you weaker to soft counters. Carpet makes you stronger against soft counters and lets you randomly win off EtW even if a Ritual gets countered.

Yea which is probably why Zakk had 2 Taiga in the sb to help cast his pyroblasts and blood moons.

FTW
03-26-2014, 11:43 AM
I'm assembling this configuration and had some questions about the sideboard. Specifically - Flame Slash, Cave-In, Storm Entity, Pyroblast and Duress. Are these catch-all types better than Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers. I've been a fan of a Stone Rain in the board for the corner case Energy Field, because Miracles is the worst. I get that Infernal Tutor and Diminishing Returns are superfluous since we can stack the deck with RtP.

It feels weird, but I like it. Dropping trou with Land Grant isn't my favorite thing to do. And I agree that there are easy ways to wipe the board of tokens, not to mention with as many Batterskulls (SFM) out there, a critical number of 16 is needed post haste.

Cheers,
T0 wins are best in life

I originally ran 4 Xantid Swarm. Then I realized that without 4 Land Grant + 1 Taiga, it's significantly harder to a) generate green mana at all and b) be able to combo off after spending a green mana on a protection spell. Especially when a major win condition (Recross) costs green. With lands, its easy to cast Swarm off a Taiga or Mox and pass the turn without losing a mana source. The manaless version is a little more taxed on resources. So I decided to just run more wishboard slots. But I didn't consider Carpet at the time. There's easily room for 4 Carpet of Flowers in the SB.

As for the other slots, IMO you rarely wish for more than 3 main cards in the SB anyway so most are there as corner cases. Stone Rain works if you anticipate needing to break Energy Field.

Blastoderm
03-26-2014, 01:23 PM
I originally ran 4 Xantid Swarm. Then I realized that without 4 Land Grant + 1 Taiga, it's significantly harder to a) generate green mana at all and b) be able to combo off after spending a green mana on a protection spell. Especially when a major win condition (Recross) costs green. With lands, its easy to cast Swarm off a Taiga or Mox and pass the turn without losing a mana source. The manaless version is a little more taxed on resources. So I decided to just run more wishboard slots. But I didn't consider Carpet at the time. There's easily room for 4 Carpet of Flowers in the SB.

As for the other slots, IMO you rarely wish for more than 3 main cards in the SB anyway so most are there as corner cases. Stone Rain works if you anticipate needing to break Energy Field.

Why stone rain? Wouldn't you grab hull breach or reverent silence?

FTW
03-27-2014, 11:51 PM
Why stone rain? Wouldn't you grab hull breach or reverent silence?

Reverent Silence no. I made the mistake of including that in my wishboard on my first iteration of RecrossBelcher, then realized that it's really awful when you run 0 Forests...
Works great in regular Belcher though!

Personally I would just grab Hull Breach, but I was just responding to the guy's request about Stone Rain. Run whatever you want :) IMO there are quite a few flex shots in the Wishboard and I think what people are running now is far from optimized.

Final Fortune
03-28-2014, 12:57 AM
Check out the SB by Zakk:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65262

(side note: two belcher decks in top16 youppi!)

Notice that he has 0 Xantid Swarm. I've been leaning towards this decision for a while now because of two things:

1. Decks with bolt always keep their bolts in (UWR, Jund, Rug).
2. People are bad at this game.

I played vs Miracles and this guy KEEPS IN ALL FOUR SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES. I ask him why and he's like you bring in xantid swarms. Really? He swords two swarms and I lose. This was repeated vs deathblade. All four stp once again.

Now I'm not sure if 7 pyroblasts is they way to go (I guess it's fine since he also sideboards in lands for extra mana which help cast his blood moons as well). Personally I would play 4 pyroblasts and 4 carpet of flowers. Carpet is insane. I win games through a truckload of soft counters. Burning wishes become so much easier to cast (to get diminishing returns if my hand is empty), drawing multiple charbelchers is also welcome! What do you guys think?

Swords to Plowshares aside, I don't think the deck needs additional mana sources to cast Red Elemental Blast, it's just a question of whether or not you're on the play or on the draw where Chancellor of the Annex is superior on the play and Red Elemental Blast is superior on the draw because you already have a 1 mana difference between a starting hand of 7 cards and a starting hand of 7 cards +1 draw and those versions are cutting Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond for 1 Empty the Warrens and 7 Blasts post-board as well as cutting Seething Song for Grim Monolith pre-board I think.

ottofromorbit
04-07-2014, 01:34 AM
I love the combo game. I'm a dredge player and built the belcher and I've been trying out recross paths version i read about in earlier thread and it seems unreliable scrambling to get blue mana fix for meditate. I was thinking of a couple more wild cantor in main but I'm thinking the carpet is a better option.
Is recross decklist any good? Any input for me?

Blastoderm
04-10-2014, 04:59 PM
I love the combo game. I'm a dredge player and built the belcher and I've been trying out recross paths version i read about in earlier thread and it seems unreliable scrambling to get blue mana fix for meditate. I was thinking of a couple more wild cantor in main but I'm thinking the carpet is a better option.
Is recross decklist any good? Any input for me?

As much as I love the idea of Recross (I got the cards to build it recently), I love my permanent mana sources waaaay too much especially games 2 and 3 against blue (which is why I play full playset of chrome mox). I am even testing a 2nd taiga in the board along with a forest. I really want that extra mana (especially green) to cast my best anti-blue cards: xantid swarm, carpet of flowers, autumn's veil.

Autumn's veil seems better than pyroblast (the downside is that it's not red) as you can basically cast it off a land or mox without dedicating yourself into the combo. Whereas with pyroblast you have to go for it and then protect your bomb spell.

Infinitium
04-10-2014, 05:20 PM
You can still run a Taiga with Recross if you'd like - Belcher runs a kind of high average CMC, so even in the worst case scenario of playing Recross with it still in the deck you have a fair chance of clashing it right back in your hand after fetching the Taiga. The blue mana isn't really an issue since you can set up any number of manamorphoses once you've stacked your deck, and 8 blue sources (12 if you count imprinting Chrome Mox with Probe, 16 if you run Mox Opal) is plenty for a 1-of.

That said, consider running Ideas Unbound instead - the Ideas/LED/LED/ProbeX4/MaMoX4/Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony pile wins for 1 less mana than Meditate preside should you not have LED at hand at the cost of having less flexible piles available and being a worse topdeck.

ottofromorbit
04-11-2014, 06:02 PM
You can still run a Taiga with Recross if you'd like - Belcher runs a kind of high average CMC, so even in the worst case scenario of playing Recross with it still in the deck you have a fair chance of clashing it right back in your hand after fetching the Taiga. The blue mana isn't really an issue since you can set up any number of manamorphoses once you've stacked your deck, and 8 blue sources (12 if you count imprinting Chrome Mox with Probe, 16 if you run Mox Opal) is plenty for a 1-of.

That said, consider running Ideas Unbound instead - the Ideas/LED/LED/ProbeX4/MaMoX4/Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony pile wins for 1 less mana than Meditate preside should you not have LED at hand at the cost of having less flexible piles available and being a worse topdeck.

since my post i researched a bit more. i like recross because not as risky as etw and just wins and still hafe 2-3 cards left in hand to rebuild if countered. I've had my goblins removed too many times and basically left hellbent-scoop. gets old. ....
I'd def run manamorphose with the recross route, topdecking win with meditate.
I have summoners pacts to fetch wild cantor tinderwall, and esg and add a storm count. same as a nutdrawcantrip when you plan to go off anyway.
I like ideas unbound. 'never thought of that. 2 blue though...ill have to try it. just picked up a set of autumns veil and Chancellor of the annex. xantid swarm has just become too slow and usually meets swords or burn before it can be of use. Autumn's veil lets you win uninterrupted. Chancellor is actually quite helpful timewalking your opponents turn 1 and gives them a late start. if they mulliganed even better. perfect facing combo or mirror.
loving belcher victories. matches over in 5mins .lol beat ANT last night he silenced me then killed himself ad nauseum into nothing. ill take it.
thanks for the reply

FTW
04-12-2014, 03:21 PM
Re: the Recross version

Carpet of Flowers post-board helps a lot against blue if you can resolve it. Helps get mana for Meditate, more green for Recross, etc.

I'm confused why you guys are having issues with getting blue mana. Do you mean casting Meditate from hand in general? If you're building a Recross pile, getting U for Meditate or UU for Ideas Unbound is trivial. You stack Manamorphose on top and can trivially convert mana into blue mana. The harder part is getting 3 mana to cast Meditate (or 2 to cast Ideas), but you can also make pass-the-turn piles with Street Wraith/LED/Meditate/LED/LED/anything/Probex4/Manamorphosex4/Burning Wish-> Tendrils. That wins in 2 turns with 0 mana floating and 0 cantrips. Wins in 1 turn with 1 cantrip and 0 mana floating. Wins this turn with 2 cantrips and 0 mana floating. So even though floating 3 mana is not easy, you don't necessarily have to have 3 mana immediately to go off with Meditate.

Ideas Unbound may be better game 1 in that it reduces the critical number of mana to go off by 1. However, that extra card from Meditate lets you play around Daze/Spell Pierce on Burning Wish (which I guess is a narrow case since they would probably use it on Recross or Meditate). Post-board meditate lets you build piles with hatebear removal, build piles that beat Revoker @ LED/Null Rod effects, go off with Belcher if you suspect opponent is sitting on Flusterstorm, etc.

The single Taiga seems bad. You would need to run 4 Land Grant (an inconsistent card) to find it and if you don't get it, Recross becomes Nature's Lore instead of Goblin Recruiter, which is a pretty big deal. Maybe Lands in the SB but seems bad in game 1, since it makes your Recrosses dead cards.

Infinitium
04-12-2014, 05:52 PM
Eh. Taiga is still the single best IMS available to the deck, and with 5 virtual copies in a 48 card deck you run a ~56% chance of seeing at least one in any given starting 7 (disregarding the information disadvantage and the fact that cantrips are better post-pathing). Cutting it hurts, and it isn't like Pact/Opal/Chancellor are any less circumstantial.

And to reiterate - Recross has a greater-than average chance of returning to your hand even in the scenarios where it's the only win condition with Taiga still in the deck. It's still not a dud even in the scenarios where neither taiga nor any other win conditions are available (which should occur approximately ~5% of the time in the starting 7 with a 4 RtP/3 BW setup, again discounting hidden information due to cantrips). I'm not convinced the amount of games one would win in practice due a higher percentage of perfect recrosses are enough to make up for losses due to IMS screw.

JPoJohnson
04-12-2014, 08:43 PM
I've seen a recross version get top 64 at a large SCG Open, but that's the best placement I've seen that list get. If you're only running that version for budget reasons, Belcher got 5th with a Stomping Ground as their only land at an SCG Open just last month and that works out as an identical piece in 95/100 games.

FTW
04-12-2014, 08:49 PM
Eh. Taiga is still the single best IMS available to the deck, and with 5 virtual copies in a 48 card deck you run a ~56% chance of seeing at least one in any given starting 7 (disregarding the information disadvantage and the fact that cantrips are better post-pathing). Cutting it hurts, and it isn't like Pact/Opal/Chancellor are any less circumstantial.

And to reiterate - Recross has a greater-than average chance of returning to your hand even in the scenarios where it's the only win condition with Taiga still in the deck. It's still not a dud even in the scenarios where neither taiga nor any other win conditions are available (which should occur approximately ~5% of the time in the starting 7 with a 4 RtP/3 BW setup, again discounting hidden information due to cantrips). I'm not convinced the amount of games one would win in practice due a higher percentage of perfect recrosses are enough to make up for losses due to IMS screw.

Returning to hand isn't the issue. Even if it does, you just blew 3 mana in a deck that needs to save it to combo off. You're turning the first Recross into a 3-mana Nature's Lore. Even though you get a Taiga out of it and win the clash(quite easy not to, although other decks do have lands which significantly decrease their odds of winning), you probably have to wait several turns to draw enough mana sources to cast Recross again with enough floating to go off. The thing is, if you're going to pass the turn to draw more mana,why not set up a pass-the-turn Recross pile instead? If you have enough mana floating to immediately cast Recross again after that Taiga (i.e. 4G before casting Recross), you also have enough mana to win immediately with Ideas Unbound. Missing on those Recrosses matters because Belcher's not a deck that does well as the game gets prolonged.

Among the games that you have Recross in the opener, with Taiga in the deck, Recross is a dud in 44% of the time (if there's a 56% chance of getting Taiga, although this chance drops a bit conditional on Recross already being in hand). That doesn't mean those hands are duds since there are mulligans, possibility of other win conditions in hand, and hidden information with cantrips. But it does mean Recross is a dud almost half the time you see it, which makes the whole deck configuration (12 cantrips, Meditate/Ideas) seem pretty suboptimal if you're not going for Recross a significant chunk of the time.

That's not to say Taiga is bad. There are so many good reasons to run Taiga. But if you want to play Taiga, you probably shouldn't play Recross. Or a maybe split of EtW and Recross.

paeng4983
04-15-2014, 09:14 PM
So before we go to our respective holy week vacation here, me and my friends decided to have a mini unsanctioned 6 man (5 round) legacy tournament in which the 1st placer will take home all the pot money.
I sleeved this deck. My MUs were as follows:

high tide 2-1
zoo (20% modern) 2-0
dredge 2-0
D&T (no ports and waste) 2-0
MUD 2-1

^_^

Now I am a little richer. lols

my list: standard belcher with the following tweaks
3 belcher, 3 ETW, 4 wish
SB
1 ETW, 1 tutor, 1 TOA, 1 gob war strike, 1 PIF, 1 Diminishing Return, 4 xantid, 1 s.spree, 1 pyroclasm,
1 telaminperformance, 1 hull breach, 1 R.silence

*only 3 belcher because my 4th is missing for some reason.

nudon
04-23-2014, 04:33 PM
While brainstorming for past in flames rogue hermit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25386-The-Rogue-Hermit&p=757433&viewfull=1#post757433) awhile back, I realized that summoner's pact can find deadshot minotaur to cycle into the desired LED pile. Could this be useful for the recross the path version? I know summoner's pact had been considered previously to up the IMS count to 20 anyway so this is essentially 1 slot to give the deck 5 more ways to win earlier. This also allows for reducing the manamorphose count down to 1 (to stack on top for hands without access to petal/LED for blue). Pact can be used similarly to find forest cyclers such as Elvish Aberration for versions running land grant.

FTW
04-24-2014, 12:02 AM
While brainstorming for past in flames rogue hermit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25386-The-Rogue-Hermit&p=757433&viewfull=1#post757433) awhile back, I realized that summoner's pact can find deadshot minotaur to cycle into the desired LED pile. Could this be useful for the recross the path version? I know summoner's pact had been considered previously to up the IMS count to 20 anyway so this is essentially 1 slot to give the deck 5 more ways to win earlier. This also allows for reducing the manamorphose count down to 1 (to stack on top for hands without access to petal/LED for blue). Pact can be used similarly to find forest cyclers such as Elvish Aberration for versions running land grant.

Hmm interesting... 4 Pact+Deadshot could be useful. It's the worst cycler (costs you a mana, similar to Chromatic Star), but adding utility to Pact is nice. Not strictly a dead slot in the deck like Meditate, so that is nice.

Doesn't solve the issue of losing to counterspells and then dying to Pact, but this is really an all-in deck anyway.

The other problem with Pact being an IMS is that you cannot make a pass-the-turn pile, you have to win this turn, so having access to more cyclers seems good. That said, I wouldn't cut more than 1 Manamorphose. Even though it makes mulliganing decisions worse, you need 1-2 cyclers to go off this turn. I think that's just easier to do with the set of Manamorphoses. Multiple Manamorphoses also enables the Tendrils pile.

chainedcurses
04-29-2014, 07:38 AM
I've seen a recross version get top 64 at a large SCG Open, but that's the best placement I've seen that list get. If you're only running that version for budget reasons, Belcher got 5th with a Stomping Ground as their only land at an SCG Open just last month and that works out as an identical piece in 95/100 games.

I want to put my 2 cents in on this. I've noticed that running S. Ground over Taiga in a typical Belcher list is the same in every match. If the 2 life from the S. Ground entering untapped is relevant, then you've probably lost the game. I went 6-3 at an open earlier this year and in 0 of the games did the 2 life matter when I won. We aren't a storm deck that uses Ad Nauseum, so we don't have to worry about life total as much. Even if you use S. Ground and 4 alt cast Git Probes, that puts you at 10 life. That's still a 4 turn clock against a flipped Delver. 5 if you were on the play.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

big_ticket
05-25-2014, 11:42 PM
guys im planning to play this month using belcher

can you guys help me on the sb side.. meta will be like

sneak/show
delver deck etc
maverick
gobs
ant
deathblade
team america

its my first legacy tourney so anyone can help me thanks

i had almost the same list on the deck

Shuvel
05-25-2014, 11:52 PM
It depends on what build of Belcher you are running. If you are using the usual Wish package then you want to use your sideboard conservatively.

This is the Wish package I usually run:

4x REB/Pyroblast (Pyroblast is a little better as it can add to storm count)
4x Xantid Swarms
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reverent Silence
1x Forest (I use this in the control matchups and it is very good for when you get 2 Land Grants)
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Shattering Spree

The last card I cannot recall off the top.

Basically you just want to be able to beat FoW for the most part.

A good trick against Sneak and Show is getting them to Show and Tell your Belcher into play. Get out an early LED and try to make them go off with Show and Tell. Plop Belcher into play and usually that's GG. :D

big_ticket
05-26-2014, 04:10 AM
^^thanks

i'll be posting my whole deck and tune it up thanks alot

feline
06-18-2014, 02:37 AM
I have completed a 2nd deck, I now own Belcher, again. (Used to have it about a year and a half ago.)

Pomegrant
06-18-2014, 03:13 AM
I've been playing Belcher on MTGO a lot as it's a good deck to play between rounds of a tournament or if you just have a couple of minutes to play it's easy to get a match in. After playing this deck for a while, I didn't really like some of the sideboard cards, like Reverent Silence or Hull Breach, because I never wished for them and if I needed to I wouldn't be able to win the game from that point anyway.

Wishboard: 1 Diminishing Returns, 1 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains, 1 Infernal Tutor, 1 Meltdown, 1 Reforge the Soul, 1 Cave-In, 1 Empty the Warrens, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Goblin War Strike, 1 Corrosive Gale (just in those hands where you have wish and Empty and have enough mana so it just adds to storm count), 1 Infernal Contract (Trying this for the times you only have wish and LED, not sure if it's good).

For the last three spots I've been trying Chancellor of the Annex and it's been okay. I board it in when Warrens isn't going to win because of sweepers and stuff. I'm not sold that it's good though.