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Koby
03-16-2013, 03:33 AM
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Pentad Prism
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Thoughtseize**

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Drowned Catacombs
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Blackcleave Cliffs

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
2 Thoughtseize
2 Firespout / Anger the Gods
1 Vandalblast
1 Pyroclasm

Deck looks goofy, but try it out. Its fast and powerful; and a bit clunky.

EDIT: last updated decklist (11/27/14)

[11/08/2013]: The maindeck has not changed significantly at all in the last 3 months. Some have raised concerns about the viability of Spoils of the Vault. It can be replaced by additional Sleight of Hand, Thoughtseize (as Todd Anderson did), or Serum Visions. Serum Visions is the weakest cantrip for this deck since it cannot replace itself with a wanted card; it causes you to wait a turn before you draw what you wanted to find. Sleight of Hand, while only digging 2 cards, gives you the card immediately.

[02/16/2014]: Maindeck has been updated to include upto 4 Sleight of Hand for additional filtering, and the replacement of Spoils of the Vault with Thoughtseize for some added disruption. The last two copies of Thoughtseize are added to the SB to increase the disruption package. As for the SB, Echoing Truth and EE are catch-alls for a variety of strategies. There may be better inclusions, but I need more testing against specific matchup to determine what those may be. Torpor Orb may be one of those (vs Twin, Faeries, and Pod). EE is specifically to answer Faerie Token/token strategies and Bitterblossom/RIP -- aka 2drop Enchantments.

[06/10/2014]: Updated the SB slightly, but no meaningful change to how the deck operates or the function of cards. Thoughtseize seems to be working fine in replacement of Spoils of the Vault.

[11/27/2014]: Fetchland adjusted for KTK reprints into Modern. This adds <1% improvement, but at least each can grab two of the deck's basics at any time.

r3dd09
03-16-2013, 06:35 AM
Picking up the deck after I wake up. Pretty stoked to turn 2 someone ;)

Mr. Safety
03-16-2013, 08:46 AM
4 Griselbrand

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 SImian Spirit Guide
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Pentad Prism
2 Spoils of the Vault
2 Sleight of Hand

1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Drowned Catacombs
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Spellskite
2 Thoughtseize
2 Guttural Response
2 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth


Deck looks goofy, but try it out. Its fast and powerful; and a bit clunky.

Fixed. There were some cards I was unfamiliar with, and going the long route is so annoying.

ScatmanX
03-16-2013, 07:17 PM
Until they actually ban Griselbrand, I'll hate you Koby.

JDK
03-17-2013, 07:43 AM
Until they actually ban Griselbrand, I'll hate you Koby.

The deck has been around for a while (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Reanimator&format=Modern) (without significant results), so don't worry.

(nameless one)
03-17-2013, 02:30 PM
Koby is on the talks on GP San Diego. He day-2ed with this.

(nameless one)
03-17-2013, 02:37 PM
I just watched him turn 2 win.

Wow

Philipp2293
03-17-2013, 02:39 PM
Just saw Koby on the screen, pretty insane stuff man. Op wanted to path Grisel? Remove SSG and a Prism counter - Izzet Charm, then kill you. Was this turn 2 actually?

rxavage
03-17-2013, 02:42 PM
Just saw Koby on the screen, pretty insane stuff man. Op wanted to path Grisel? Remove SSG and a Prism counter - Izzet Charm, then kill you. Was this turn 2 actually?


Yes, and the he proceeded to attack 3x due to drawing into Fury of the Horde. This deck seems wicked fun to play. I like Gris and it would be a shame to see him be banned in all formats except standard and vintage.

r3dd09
03-17-2013, 09:42 PM
Went to all my local stores the past few days, couldn't find anything for the deck. Looks like I'm resorting to ebay and vendors :/

(nameless one)
03-17-2013, 10:14 PM
I would love to read Koby's report on this.

Koby
03-18-2013, 01:41 AM
Here's a playtest session with the deck where I decided I would play this deck for Grand Prix San Diego.
http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/377894223

I went 10-4-1.
Day 1 - (8-1) losing to Affinity in Round 4
Day 2 - (2-3-1) losing to David Scharf (Scapeshift), Sammy Tukeman (UWR midrange), and another Affinity player. Half my losses were in the Top 8. The draw in the last round was to make sure both my opponent and I got some prizes, but I otherwise beat him soundly as he was playing Burn and I have Leylines.

Here's the match in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa2KMK3whuw&t=13m30s

kombatkiwi
03-18-2013, 05:27 AM
Here's a playtest session with the deck where I decided I would play this deck for Grand Prix San Diego.
http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/377894223

I went 10-4-1.
Day 1 - (8-1) losing to Affinity in Round 4
Day 2 - (2-3-1) losing to David Scharf (Scapeshift), Sammy Tukeman (UWR midrange), and another Affinity player. Half my losses were in the Top 8. The draw in the last round was to make sure both my opponent and I got some prizes, but I otherwise beat him soundly as he was playing Burn and I have Leylines.

Here's the match in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa2KMK3whuw&t=13m30s

It was very fun to watch your testing session and it looks like a fun deck, very powerful and consistent proactive gameplan

Fizzeler
03-18-2013, 11:53 AM
Koby successfully getting Griselbrand banned in every format, I like it!

This deck is sweet, as much as I hate losing on turn 3 to it, the deck is fun to play and sort of easy to disrupt

Koby
03-18-2013, 02:54 PM
I picked this deck for the GP because I anticipated durdly creature decks to be the main part of the show, and durdly creature decks can't interact with the combo outside of Deathrite Shaman and Path to Exile. Even those two are easy to beat with Through the Breach and Emrakul, respectively. Counterspells are not fun to play against either. Leading into the event, there was murmurings about the RG speed aggro deck, and other Junk style midrange decks which do a good job of plowing through the Mid-range blue decks well. Thus, what I expected the metagame to be turned out really well for this deck.

Is the deck easy to hate out? Sure, every deck has its weaknesses. However, those hate-decks don't always hold up against the rest of the metagame over a long tournament.

The deck right now has two clear weak matchups:
1. Affinity, due to its speed and good SB options (Grafdiggers Cage, RIP, and Needle)
2. Blue decks with SCM and cheap counters.

sillysam71
03-18-2013, 05:21 PM
You hardcasting Griselbanned against burn in your testing session was hilarious. lol

meow
03-19-2013, 02:50 PM
this deck is really impressive and so fun to play! i'm gona test it this week end on a local tourney, i'll post a small report.

koby could you tell us more about the cards you tried and didn't make it to to the final list and also the cards you are considering at the moment ?

I know you might have already have turned inside out the deck to find the best decklist but have you considered the following cards in the sideboard: (the bad thing is that those cards are mostly not red so they are not good with Fury of the Horde )

repeal, abrupt decay, krosan grip (for all the cards the against it like needle etc...)
silence (i would see 3 things here, 1-waste a counter for your oponent but i guess Guttural Response is better here for being red/green, 2-if he can't/don't counter griselbanned is already protected from spells, 3-could buy you a turn to get enough lands to go off)

Koby
03-19-2013, 03:54 PM
Cards that were tried and eliminated from the last 6 flex slots (Sleight of Hand, Spoils of the Vault, Boseiju):

Lightning Axe (not consistent)
Pyroclasm (doesn't dig and hedges against an Aggro meta, otherwise dead)
Serum Visions (not good enough as a digger compared to Sleight of Hand)
Gitaxian Probe (only cycles, costs life)
Nicol Bolas (the creature, only shot effect)
Peer thru Depths (too expensive as a cantrip)
Dimir Charm (isn't a cantrip)

My friend also Day 2'd with the deck at 12-3, and was playing a heavy white splash for Silence maindeck (as a 1-off) with more in the SB to take care of other combo/control matchups.

Dispel is going to replace the Guttural Response in the SB, since countering Path to Exile/Surgical Extraction is important.

meanieface
03-24-2013, 06:29 PM
Do you have an updated list for this deck sir Kory?

chairman
03-27-2013, 08:47 PM
How do you usually sideboard against UWx control with your list? Need some expert advice.

Koby
03-28-2013, 01:39 PM
How do you usually sideboard against UWx control with your list? Need some expert advice.

You want to bring in Dispel (to counter their counters) and possibly Thoughtseize; depending on whether you're on the play or draw. I have not had an opportunity to really test the merits of either one to see which is better. All I know is that I take out 1 Emrakul and 2 Spoils against them to bring in 3 Dispel/Thoughtseize.

DragoFireheart
03-28-2013, 07:18 PM
Do you think this deck will get Griselbrand banned?

Koby
03-28-2013, 07:24 PM
Do you think this deck will get Griselbrand banned?

That is my goal. I think the video coverage is a good indicator that it may be.

DragoFireheart
03-28-2013, 07:47 PM
That is my goal. I think the video coverage is a good indicator that it may be.

I wish you luck in getting Grisel-banned.

jarvisyu
03-29-2013, 08:04 AM
That is my goal. I think the video coverage is a good indicator that it may be.


WoTC's philosophy on modern bans has been a lot more aggressive with regards to turn 3/4 kills. I expect to see some parts of Eggs go (Reshape or Lotus Bloom come to mind, although the deck technically still survives w/o those (Wild Cantor and the like)).

Eggs can turn 2 with a good draw!

JDK
03-29-2013, 08:53 AM
Eggs can turn 2 with a good draw!
So do other decks like Infect. They all really need a nuts draw to do this. Stop crying for bans with such insignificant arguments.

jarvisyu
03-29-2013, 09:29 AM
So do other decks like Infect. They all really need a nuts draw to do this. Stop crying for bans with such insignificant arguments.

I wasn't 'crying for a ban'.

DragoFireheart
03-29-2013, 10:59 AM
So do other decks like Infect. They all really need a nuts draw to do this. Stop crying for bans with such insignificant arguments.

Over-reacting are we?

kwis
03-31-2013, 01:52 AM
Pretty tempted to make this deck for if I ever run into people looking to play Modern. Looks like my Griselbrand's are going to share a home in a deck for Legacy, Modern, and Standard. =D

meanieface
04-08-2013, 02:27 AM
WoTC's philosophy on modern bans has been a lot more aggressive with regards to turn 3/4 kills. I expect to see some parts of Eggs go (Reshape or Lotus Bloom come to mind, although the deck technically still survives w/o those (Wild Cantor and the like)).

Eggs can turn 2 with a good draw!

I don't Wizards will ban any pieces of Eggs currently. People just don't sideboard the right things against it. Players don't take the deck seriously enough and Eggs runs over those players.

This is an eternal format, and combo NEEDS to be an integral part of the metagame.

Christsake people, if you are playing black put Extirpate in your SB.

Koby
04-08-2013, 02:33 AM
Please keep discussion of the Modern format to the Community forum.

whienot
04-11-2013, 12:34 AM
Took this deck to a small local tonight. Highlights:

-3 turn 2 wins.
-Boseiju winning through 2 Negates and a Spell Pierce.
-Winning with Spirit Guide beats twice.

Nothing to really add. Sick deck is sick.

TraxDaMax
04-11-2013, 01:16 AM
Cool deck, might try it.

Fizzeler
04-22-2013, 10:28 PM
Well this deck survives for another 3 months, guess I'll go build it now

John Cox
05-11-2013, 08:40 PM
I've decided to build this deck, does anyone have any pointers? I've gone with this list,

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Izzet Charm
4 Pentad Prism
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Faithless Looting
4 Duress
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Steam Vents
3 Blood Crypt
1 Island
4 Through the Breach
1 Swamp
4 Conflagrate / fury of the horde
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

I'll have nature's claim and echoing truth in the side, those and leyline of sanctity are about the only "for sures"

uppermichigan
05-25-2013, 07:26 PM
I've been playing this deck for a week or so now. Lots of fun! I'm going to try Pact of Negation out of the board against control. The deck is already playing "all in" so the drawback is going to happen either way if you don't get griselbrand through for 21.

Most recently I've been playing on the draw for the option of drawing to 8 and discarding griselbrand if you don't have a discard outlet in hand. It also screws with your opponent..

Acclimation
06-26-2013, 06:44 PM
Considering picking this deck up for gp kansas city.

Are there any changes from the san diego list that are worth mentioning?

Koby
06-26-2013, 06:53 PM
You can probably cut a land (down to 19) and play more cantrips. Gitaxian Probe might also help, but I think it's weaker than Sleight of Hand right now. It's very fragile, but plays somewhat like Tin Fins. Against non-burn Blue, you can likely take your time to setup a great hand. if you can figure out how to handle Affinity better than Pyroclasm/Slagstorm, then I'm all ears.

Acclimation
06-26-2013, 06:56 PM
Is hoping to dodge affinity a good enough plan?

I'll proxy it up later and run it through my group's decks this week, and report back any insights.

YamiJoey
06-26-2013, 07:21 PM
Is hoping to dodge affinity a good enough plan?

I'll proxy it up later and run it through my group's decks this week, and report back any insights.

Affinity, wether good or bad, is always popular. You need a plan.

YamiJoey
06-26-2013, 07:22 PM
Is hoping to dodge affinity a good enough plan?

I'll proxy it up later and run it through my group's decks this week, and report back any insights.

Affinity, whether good or bad, is always popular. You need a plan.

Acclimation
06-26-2013, 10:58 PM
If the match up is that bad though, is it worth slots to try and make a garbage match-up just okay?


I know I have a Modern tcg player event this weekend, so if I can get it together by Sunday, I'll give it a go there.

Lord Seth
06-27-2013, 01:10 AM
Is hoping to dodge affinity a good enough plan?
Affinity is a Tier 1 deck from my understanding. It's kind of like playing Legacy and hoping to dodge RUG Delver.

Acclimation
06-27-2013, 01:41 AM
Affinity is a Tier 1 deck from my understanding. It's kind of like playing Legacy and hoping to dodge RUG Delver.

In the last 3 SCG events I've been to, I've dodged both Tempo Thresh and all flavors of Miracles.

It can happen, but I'm not counting on it. So far it looks like some flavor of board wipe is necessary for Affinity. Unless we want to find some way to add Elesh Norn to the deck as a possible target, but I don't think it'll do much good.

Acclimation
06-29-2013, 05:41 AM
Got the deck together tonight and played a small handful of games, 12 against a friend's 4 color Amulet of Vigor/Summer Bloom/Karoo Land deck, and 3 against Melira Pod.

I went 10-2 against the first deck and 2-1 against the Pod deck; using main boards only just to get a feel for how the main deck functions.

Here's a picture of my tallies from the first set of games: http://25.media.tumblr.com/4687a350db42a2e6f83fe2c8e66c2756/tumblr_mp5ehbWR111rxxrqpo1_500.jpg

With only 1 Mulligan in 12 games, I was able to get 5 wins on either t2 or t3, and the other 5 happened between turns 4 and 7. The one loss happened due to my friend comboing out on t3 when I had a t4 kill, and the other loss happened when he did his combo on t4, and finished me off on t5 with Ob Nixilis. I should note that his deck is wildly inconsistent and had no interaction with me what so ever, but he did have Slaughter Games and I think Deathrite Shaman in the sideboard. Either way, he said he'd never take the deck to a Sanctioned event, so whatever.

The Melira pod deck had 2 mulligans in 3 games, and with 1 t2 and a t4 win, with him winning on t6 on my only loss (Deathrite Shaman *shakes fist*).

Deck list is as follows (shamelessly copied/pasted from the OP):


Land (19)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave

Instant (14)
4x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Izzet Charm
2x Spoils of the Vault
4x Through the Breach

Sorcery (11)
4x Faithless Looting
4x Fury of the Horde
3x Sleight of Hand

Creature (12)
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Griselbrand
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Artifact (4)
4x Pentad Prism

Sideboard (15)
3x Dispel
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Pyroclasm
2x Spellskite
3x Duress

Can't get Thoughseize atm, but Duress is workable in the meantime since its primary function is to strip reactive spells from my opponent (not having the ability to hit anything including my own creatures is a drag though).

Feeling good about the deck so far, hoping I can make it to the local tcg player event at my store this Sunday to get some games in against the field.

Acclimation
07-01-2013, 04:53 PM
Played in a Modern event, went 2-2.

Round 1: Aggro Loam 2-1

Game 1 I had a decent hand and got Griselbrand into the yard, but couldn't find a Goryo's Vengeance. Ended up getting Emrakul stuck in hand versus a Liliana and didn't draw well enough to get anything in time to race Life from the Loam and Assault.

-2 Spoils -1 Emrakul -1 Izzet Charm (I think) +4 Leyline of Sanctity

Games 2 and 3 started with Leyline out, and both ended within 5 turns without him doing anything. Hooray Leyline!

Round 2: Merfolk 0-2

Game 1: Needed Griselbrand or Emrakul to either Pitch for Goryo or to Through the Breach, but instead drew into lands and Fury of the Hordes while he beat my face in.

-2 Spoils -1 Emrakul +3 Dispel (I figured he would have Spell Pierces or Remand or Something to disrupt me)

Game 2: Kept a hand with a couple of Faithless Lootings, some land, and Pentad Prism, and ended up drawing nothing but Fury of the Horde and Emrakul (I had 3 of each in my hand by the time the game was done).

Round 3: Splinter Twin 1-2

Game 1: He kept a slow hand, and I couldn't find a Griselbrand. I eventually found it and attempted to Through the Breach it, but he had the counters.

-2 Spoils -1 Emrakul -2 Izzet Charm (I think, I wasn't really making notes) +2 Spellskite +3 Duress

Game 2: Ended up reanimating Griselbrand, he flashed in Deceiver Exarch to tap it, I draw 7 and end up pitching Emrakul, reanimating it, and casting Fury of the Horde all on my second mainphase to get the attack with Emrakul, followed by a second Fury of the Horde (the draw 7 was good to me).

Game 3: He countered the first Through the Breach, and was able to deal enough damage via Pestermite and Snapcaster Mages that I couldn't redirect Kiki-Jiki with Spellskite.

Round 4: Kiki-Pod 2-0

Game 1 I got a t3 Goldfish with Through the Breach + Griselbrand

No sideboard changes

Game 2: Same thing, only with Emrakul (he shocked himself down to 15).

Overall, not bad, but I had some really really shit draws. I wasn't sure if I was sideboarding properly either, but it's hard to tell when the only sideboard cards I drew into were the Leylines and Spellskites, and those were good when I had them. The manabase felt good, I was able to get the colors I needed when I needed them. I really want to find better card draw for the deck though, but I'm not sure what to cut and what to add, since I feel the deck needs the 8 looting spells to pitch things, and everything else feels very tight. Spoils of the Vault kind of scares me, since I've killed myself on it in testing (and also exiled a few necessary things on other attempts), but it's also very powerful when you need that last piece. There needs to be either Entomb or Lim-Dul's Vault or something similar for Modern, but I digress.

edit- Surprisingly, nobody was there with Affinity, especially since there's at minimum 2 people who own the deck that usually come when we have Modern events. The top 4 ended up being Splinter Twin, 4 color Delver tempo, Scapeshift, and UWR control, 12 people total present with Mono U Tron, Living End, Goblins, and that Blistercoil Weird/Paradise Mantle combo deck being represented. Not sure if it would be representative of other metas, but still worth mentioning.

Koby
07-01-2013, 09:54 PM
Thirst for Knowledge could do work to provide some card advantage (+3 -2) but due to its cost may not be important enough.

tonymingwong
07-03-2013, 01:28 AM
I've been doing extremely well at my LGS. However, I always never want spoils in my hand.


-What are some situations you have used spoils?
-I almost always side it out
-Is there another card we could use?

Acclimation
07-03-2013, 04:40 AM
I like Thirst, but that 3 cmc is a bit much. Could putting Serum Visions back in the deck be the right move? It's not the best, but it's 1 cmc and allows us to ship unnecessary cards to the bottom. If I do add Thirst, what would be the best cards to take out? I can see arguments for Sleight of Hand, Spoils, or a Charm for 2/3 Thirsts.

Spoils has the ability to get us that crucial piece to go off, but at sometimes great cost, whether it be dangerous life loss or exiling crucial cards from the top (Fury of the Horde). At the same time though, if I use it and I find that last piece within the first 5 cards, it's great since I'm usually out of draw spells at that point anyway and the 5 turns it would have taken me to get to that card would probably have been game over. Spoils is very much a high risk/high reward card. I like the card, I understand when to burn it, but it also scares me as a card. For the 2 slots it takes up, it gives us the most bang for our buck.

Sleight of Hand is great at 1 cmc, and it gives us decent card selection, but it's always a drag when both cards are dead or both cards are relevant (happens fairly often in my experience). 2 deep for 1 mana is good, and shipping a dead card to the bottom is nice, but it always makes me sad since I'm too used to Ponder/Brainstorm for my card selection.

Izzet Charm is great utility, looting is awesome for us, the Pierce is great for protection, and the shock can potentially buy us time or get rid of a pesky bear; it's also red so we can pitch it to Fury. The draw back is that it's 2 cmc, and sometimes burning it early for looting can put us back by denying us a potential counter or by having to pitch cards we don't want to lose (next turn's land drop, or more card draw). I find myself siding out 1 of these on occasion, but it never feels good since the sheer utility of this card is amazing.

Thirst for Knowledge gets us 3 deep, and we can pitch spare Pentad Prisms if we want to hold onto as many cards, or pitch multiple dead cards. It's also instant, so we don't have to commit to casting it on our turn. However, it's also 3 cmc, and while we regularly tap out for Through the Breach, I find 3 cmc awkward, since I use turn 2 or 3 to go up in mana for Pentad Prism. It might be worth testing though, since I feel that card draw is this deck's weakness (Almost all of my losses were due to drawing dead).


I think I'm going to give a few games a shot with a configuration of

-3 Sleight +3 Thirst

and one with

-2 Spoils +2 Thirst

and another with

-1 Sleight, -1 Izzet Charm, +2 Thirst

as soon as I can pin down some people for testing.

Acclimation
07-04-2013, 02:06 AM
Played some games minus Sleight of Hand tonight, and I liked how Thirst felt better, but I'm still on the fence.

Another card I was considering was Forbidden Alchemy, but I don't like that I'm pitching 3 cards from the top of my library instead of 1/2 cards from my hand after drawing. But going down 4 and it having in color flashback are pluses.

Hoping I can get more testing in tomorrow before the GP this weekend.

YamiJoey
07-04-2013, 08:03 AM
Flashback on Alchemy should be irrelevant. It's 7-mana, and that's a lot for a deck that would like to be killing people on T4 ish.

Koby
07-05-2013, 12:38 PM
I don't think the flashback on Alchemy is going to matter at all.

Another option for that effect would be Dimir Charm, but ultimately doesn't replace itself with a card in hand... it does dig 3 for 2 mana and gets rid of two potentially dead cards. The color requirement will probably not matter. It can counter sorceries, which may matter (Unburial Rites? Thoughtseize? hmm maybe it won't matter...)

Compulsive Research is another option, but Sorcery speed is undesired when trying to bin Griselbrand and it still costs 3 mana.

eriktyvollk
07-05-2013, 12:56 PM
Telling Time Might not be the worst for selection?

Koby
07-05-2013, 01:01 PM
Telling Time Might not be the worst for selection?

For digging, yes it's good. For putting cards into the GY; not so much.

Acclimation
07-06-2013, 12:35 AM
Thirst has been pretty good so far, but sitting here at the venue for gpkc and i'm not feeling the most confidence in the deck after some play testing.

kombatkiwi
07-06-2013, 10:56 PM
Thirst has been pretty good so far, but sitting here at the venue for gpkc and i'm not feeling the most confidence in the deck after some play testing.

I think Todd Anderson finished day 1 at like 8-1 or something with the deck so it can't be that bad (feature match last round against Amulet of Vigor combo)

blindspotxxx
07-07-2013, 06:18 AM
I wish I could see his list, it featured Abrupt Decay somewhere lol

Acclimation
07-07-2013, 05:07 PM
His list ran 3 mb thoughtseize, 1 see beyond and i think 1more land, but was otherwise the same core as the list we've been discussing. I ended up on storm (started off 5-1, ended up at 6-3after drawing dead in g2&3).
I think todd got lucky on draws, i was finding myself losing to not drawing a missing piece more often than not, so grats to him for having a config that worked great for him

blindspotxxx
07-07-2013, 07:40 PM
Finished 11th GP Kansas!

This is as good as a top 8

Todd Anderson's Vengeance
Modern – Grand Prix Kansas City

Main Deck
60 cards

3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
20 lands

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
12 creatures

4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Izzet Charm
4 Pentad Prism
1 See Beyond
3 Thoughtseize
4 Through the Breach
28 other spells

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Duress
2 Negate
3 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
3 Torpor Orb
15 sideboard cards

FTW
07-08-2013, 06:14 AM
I think Todd Anderson finished day 1 at like 8-1 or something with the deck so it can't be that bad (feature match last round against Amulet of Vigor combo)

Can someone please link the feature match? I cannot find it anywhere and would love to see it in action!

Griselpuff
07-08-2013, 10:17 AM
Calling it now: DCI will ban either Emrakul, Griselbrand or Goryo's Vengeance. Maybe not this cycle, but definitely by the next. This deck is freakishly consistent in terms of turn 2 or 3 kills (although can be really clunky if disrupted as the draw engines are really shitty).

JDK
07-08-2013, 04:35 PM
I don't think it's 'freakingly consistent' but it does violate the 'turn 4 policy' more regularly than other decks indeed. Emrakul would be the worst card to ban though, as it would cripple Tron pretty significantly.

blindspotxxx
07-09-2013, 05:59 AM
I would hardly call it consistent lol

Been testing it so far and the draws are super clunky!

Just watched Todd's feature match. He misplayed against a Deathrite Shaman. He had 2 Goryo's Vengeace that would have won him the game.

pochy
07-11-2013, 09:43 AM
Can someone please link the feature match? I cannot find it anywhere and would love to see it in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-lsDTIa_u4
i think it's this one

and this is the list:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11261&iddeck=82252

Griselpuff
07-12-2013, 08:02 PM
IMO this deck needs 4 Defense Grids in the board. They are pretty insane vs. control decks and Twin. If Affinity is giving trouble, I'd recommend Shatterstorm.

Koby
07-13-2013, 03:12 AM
I can get behind the Defense Grids.

phazonmutant
07-13-2013, 02:33 PM
Spell Snare can be a problem, right? It both hits Defense grid and can get through it on turn 4 (although if they're leaving up 4 mana that might be just fine). How about just throwing in some rainbow lands and playing Silence?

Koby
08-09-2013, 05:07 PM
I've noticed there's a build floating around MTGO that plays more like a mid-range version of the deck. I'm not a big fan of Lightning Axe, because as a discard outlet, it's conditional. Anyways, here's the list for those who are interested. I can't make any claims about whether this is better overall, since I'm biased and don't actually buy the argument that decks in Modern have a problem with 3rd or 4th colors (fetches, duals, and Gemstone Mine exist...)

5 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mountain
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Through the Breach
4 Night's Whisper
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Axe
4 Goryo's Vengeance

2 Pentad Prism

SIDEBOARD
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Slagstorm
2 Slaughter Games

(nameless one)
08-10-2013, 12:45 PM
Would you pilot the same list or you're still piloting the old Izzet Charm list?

I love Izzet Charm as it can also be protection on top of discard outlet. Not to mention it can also get rid of Deathrite Shaman.

Koby
08-10-2013, 05:20 PM
Would you pilot the same list or you're still piloting the old Izzet Charm list?

I love Izzet Charm as it can also be protection on top of discard outlet. Not to mention it can also get rid of Deathrite Shaman.

That's the reason why I'm so surprised the BR list is being advocated at all. I would still run 95% of the same list, with the last 4-5 slots being Spoils of the Vault and Sleight of Hand.

evanmartyr
08-11-2013, 01:30 AM
Koby, that list looks awful (the 2x Pentad Prism one). You'd give up so much and get...shitty burn? Less acceleration, less protection, less disruption, less card filtering. Screw that.

FTW
08-11-2013, 11:33 AM
Just watched Todd's feature match. He misplayed against a Deathrite Shaman. He had 2 Goryo's Vengeace that would have won him the game.

How? He didn't have 7 mana that turn. Looting (2R) + Goryo (1B) + Goryo (1B) is more than he had. To set that up, he would have needed to have played a second Pentad Prism first. He only drew the second Prism on turn 3 off See Beyond and had no chance to cast it. If he plays it on turn 4, he's setting up to go off on turn 5. The problem is that:
a) Todd could be dead before turn 5 to Finks + Shaman + Resto Angel if Pat plays one EOT
b) Going off turn 5 gives Pat an extra Shaman activation to exile the 2nd Faithless Looting, so then Todd can't bin Emrakul or dig for more gas and has no way to win

So Todd is really stuck trying to go off turn 4. If Faithless Looting found double Simian Spirit Guide then he gets super lucky and can double Vengeance Emrakul and wipe the board. If not, at least he can get the second dig effect before it gets exiled and then rob Shaman of fuel to buy himself another turn. Maybe he gets lucky and finds Pyroclasm or Through the Breach or can bait Pat into activating Shaman first. He didn't. Turn 4 Loot is definitely better than Turn 4 Pentad Prism IMO.

apple713
08-22-2013, 02:18 AM
This is the list im running. Firespout is main instead of thought seize mainly because there are more aggro decks in the format. I dont have to worry about a control deck killing me on t4. In fact with 3 main boseiju i don't really worry about control much at all.

Its Black Red only to ease mana issues.

4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach

4 Faithless Looting
4 Wild Guess

3 Firespout

4 Pentad Prism
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

Zllig
08-23-2013, 05:22 AM
Deck probably wants a nonzero amount of Dismembers in the sideboard. Kills all relevant hate bears (especially Linvala) along with DRS and can be cast off of a Spirit Guide in a pinch.

Koby
08-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Deck probably wants a nonzero amount of Dismembers in the sideboard. Kills all relevant hate bears (especially Linvala) along with DRS and can be cast off of a Spirit Guide in a pinch.

I would think that Deathmark also achieves this, and barring Chord of Calling, sorcery speed removal should be sufficient.
I've never really faced Linvala in tournaments, but I can see how that would be a big problem with Griselbrand. Emrakul doesn't care however.

DRS and other 2/2 hate bears are also dealt with Izzet Charm, which continues to impress with its versatility.

Griselpuff
08-29-2013, 09:58 AM
Koby, wanna post your current list?

Koby
08-29-2013, 04:05 PM
Koby, wanna post your current list?

The decklist in the OP is the "latest and greatest". There have been no modifications to the miandeck at least. You may want to test out Defense Grid in place of either Dispel and/or Thoughtseize. I think 3 might be fine, but I can also defend 4 copies.

DragoFireheart
09-13-2013, 02:46 PM
I like how WotC hasn't banned the demon or the Cthulhu yet.

Koby
09-13-2013, 03:13 PM
I like how WotC hasn't banned the demon or the Cthulhu yet.

I'm actually thinking Goryo's Vengeance will get banned this round. Lots of chatter about it being the linchpin in the explosive Turn 2 kills this deck can produce.

John Cox
10-30-2013, 07:04 PM
Hey, would plunge into darkness with pull from eternity be worth doing in this deck? The idea being you have either goryo's vengeance or pull from enternity in your hand and then plunge for the other, while exiling a griselbrand or emrakul and then use pull from eternity to basically entomb it. Plunge also supports the normal kill too by getting you whatever piece you need to go off (faithless looting, creature, goryo's, through the breach).

Acclimation
12-11-2013, 08:24 PM
I've been thinking about this deck recently, and came to this list, slightly different from the version in the OP.

Land (19)
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave

Sorcery (14)
4x Faithless Looting
4x Fury of the Horde
3x Sleight of Hand
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (3)
3x Pentad Prism

Instant (12)
4x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Izzet Charm
4x Through the Breach

Creature (12)
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Griselbrand
4x Simian Spirit Guide

The problems I've had with the deck in the past have been an inability to pitch fatties for the Goryo line or having difficulty finding the right pieces or having some amount of protection.

With 32 necessary cards and 19 lands, this leaves us with 9ish flex slots- so I have a 3/3/3 split with Sleight of Hand, Thoughtseize, and Pentad Prism.

Prism is a great card, and can get us to Through the Breach much faster or have excess mana to fight through protection, but I felt like 4 was a bit much.

For awhile, I was running Thirst for Knowledge and Spoils as a way to increase my card draw and ability to pitch fatties, but I wasn't liking how it was panning out, especially Spoils. Thirst, while effective, costs too much at 3 cmc. Since I cut a Prism, I decided to go back to having Sleight of Hand, having a 1 mana cantrip feels necessary in this format.

With 3 slots left, I knew that I wanted 2 of them to be Thoughtseize- it's definitely one of the strongest cards in the format, and being able to disrupt our opponent, gather information, and have the option of targeting myself, AND the fact that there are results with Thoughtseize over Spoils are all things to consider. That left me with one slot left over, and I'm first trying out 3 Thoughtseize. I can see it getting cut for a 4th Sleight, since life loss in this deck is something we need to keep low due to our combo kill.

Mana base is just one I saw Koby post, I liked the color spread and felt like Boseiju was only okay at best. It is possible that the mana base posted in the OP is more correct though.

No sideboard yet, it would likely just be one copied/pasted from past versions of the deck, with Pyroclasms and other fun things.

No_Life_No_Future
12-12-2013, 08:29 PM
I have been playing this deck for a week now and I have been having some success with this list on MTGO. Including wining two modern 8 mans. I have had trouble with control decks which have a fast clock. Twin and UWR are especially tough match-ups. In my opinion slowing down the deck is fine, though you can randomly loose after wiping the board with Emrakul. You don't need to win the turn you resolve your first Goryo's Vengeance. If you are facing down a lethal attack you can simply wait until their turn, flash in a Griselbrand and block and kill their biggest creature to draw 7. Chances are good that you can put in an Emrakul next turn or at least clean up the board with Pyroclasm. If you are playing vs combo you have lots of hand disruption (which is also good vs gy hate in game 2&3). I lowered the number of Through the Breach because I am not playing any accelerators. Between the manabase and Thoughtsieze the deck losses a lot of life so you have to be careful with how you play out your mana and spend your life.

Lands(21):
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp

Cantrips(12):
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Faithless Looting

Disruption(13):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Pyroclasm
3 Lightning Bolt

Combo(14):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Through the Breach

Sideboard(15):
2 Izzet Charm
1 Through the Breach
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Duress
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Leyline of the Void

Koby
12-18-2013, 01:31 PM
Through the Breach is usually the best post-SB card for this deck. Many decks can fight the reanimation, but very few can fight TTB. I've easily won games against RIP and Scavenging Ooze by using TTB, where Goryo's Vengeance was just dead. At the very least I would run 4 in the 75, although can agree that you don't need all 4 maindeck. I prefer to run all 4 maindeck because I want consistency of the combo pieces.

Acclimation
12-22-2013, 07:20 PM
I know I've had better luck relying on TTB as plan A, with reanimation being plan B, as opposed to the other way around.

Acclimation
01-15-2014, 02:16 AM
Copied/Pasted from my post in the thread on MTGSalvation:

re: GP Prague list "Tin Fists"
The Tin Fists list is rather interesting though, we are adding a third plan to the deck (and making it the main plan at that) at the cost of what I consider a less stable mana base and the ability to combo kill in one turn (Fury of the Horde).

I like the addition of Sylvan Caryatid in the deck, it fixes mana and blocks fairly well. I also think that the Fist of the Suns plan is good when the format is running less Abrupt Decay and other artifact hate main board and when the meta itself isn't prepared for it.

Things I don't like:

1) Mana base. I understand why it looks the way it does, we need to reliably hit WUBRG by turn 3 or 4 to utilize Fist, but it can also lead to some feel bad moments in which you are lacking the correct color combination to cast certain cards (needing Green for Caryatid, blue for Charm and Serum Visions, Black for Goryo and Thoughtseize and so on). The list has 7 rainbow lands and 4 fetches, so the mana is easily fixed, but at a high life cost. Luckily, the format doesn't have Wasteland or Stifle, so mana bases can get crazy. Blood Moon can be a problem, but that's what sideboards are for.

2) Fist of the Suns vulnerability. It's a 3 cmc artifact that does nothing until the next turn. In a format in which Abrupt Decay and tutorable artifact hate are common (Pod and BGx decks are popular in my area, at least), having a main plan be vulnerable to those things can be sketchy to me. Yes, we have Goryo and Breach, but neither are too reliable when the rest of the deck can't capitalize on the one shot, haste effect.

Other thoughts: While the deck usually can't put the game away the turn you combo with reanimation/Goryo, it does put you in a very advantageous position, with either your opponent having a gimped board or you having a fresh 7 with the ability to combo again the next turn. However, while that can be a virtual win, sometimes the opponent can come back or you can brick on draws (have seen it happen and have had it happen to me), which makes me wary of "virtual wins."

What I do like is the addition of the Creeping Tar Pit. Manlands are a great supplement to our plan, since now we can Goryo Emrakul, then win the next turn with a Tar Pit. The CIPT clause can be problematic for tempo reasons, but I think that's less of a problem.

No_Life_No_Future
02-06-2014, 12:50 AM
I have been independently testing Creeping Tar Pit as a 2 of and I feel it is an excellent addition to the deck. I was running several Lightning Bolts in maindeck to finish an opponent off after an Emrakul hit. After adding Creeping tar pit I felt I could cut the bolts and the ETB tapped has not been too big of a deal as this deck is already extremely fast.

I have been also testing Inquisition of Kozilek over duress with mixed results. The main downside I have found is that it can't hit Cryptic Command. One advantage it has over Duress is that it can rip creatures out of their hand (better vs twin) which can give you the time necessary to combo.

I've tested 2 Izzet Charm in the main deck. I found that they are very flexible but also underwhelming. The deck has enough card disadvantage thanks to faithless looting. The added ability to take out creatures is nice, but Pyroclasm does this better (except for manlands in the affinity matchup).

Now that Deathrite Shaman is banned Goryo's Vengence may have gotten better. That is... unless everyone switches over to playing twin.

I have 3 flex slots in the maindeck which I am currently testing thoughtscour as an additional cantrip/enabler


Here is my current decklist:
Lands(20):
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Gemtstone Mine
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp

Cantrips(15):
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Faithless Looting
3 Thought Scour

Disruption(10):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pyroclasm

Combo(15):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Through the Breach

Sideboard(15):
1 Pyroclasm
1 Through the Breach
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

How do you guys do vs twin?

seamonkeyman
02-06-2014, 03:09 PM
I've been wanting to pick this deck up since the GP Prague Tin Fists list showed up, and now with Deathrite gone this could be the shot to finally get Griselbanned!

A few comments on your list:
It seems like an interesting mix between the one in the OP and the Tin Fists build. You are less all-in since you don't have the Fury or the Horde plan, however, you don't have a great plan B since you can't actaully cast monster and get them to stick around like you can using Tin Fists.
This list seems a little more controlling with 7 main deck discards spells and 3 removal spells, however once you combo and don't kill them I'm not sure the 2 Creeping Tar Pits will be enough to consistently finish them off.

I don't think Though Scour is where we want to be in this type of a deck. You can't actaully cast it as an instant early in the game since if you flip and Emrakul you just wasted your mill spell if you're not ready to combo off. I think Izzet Charm fits better into this slot since you control what you discard and the other modes have value as well. I know it is card disadvantage, but it is a better and more versitale card.

Do you miss the ramp (Simian Spirit Guide, Pentad Prism, Sylvan Caryatid)?
Only playing 20 lands but having to hit quite a few land drops before combo-ing seems risky.
7 main deck discard spells seems a bit much, I would swap a few for ramp.

Overall, nice list, I'm glad to see people putting work into this as I plan on playing it in coming months.
If you take to an event I'd love to see a report - what cards worked/didn't work, etc.

@Koby, are you still on the OP list in the post Deathrite world?

Acclimation
02-06-2014, 11:14 PM
As posted above, Izzet Charm is present because of its versatility. It gives us looting, stack protection, and creature interaction all in one card for a low cmc. 4 slots, and it functions as Faithless Looting 5-8, mainboard creature removal, and a counterspell. Same point repeated twice, but it's really that great for what it's providing.

Thought Scour is cool, but my biggest issue is how little control you have- you mill 2 cards off the top and draw a random card, which could lead to awkward moments such as milling your reanimation spell and drawing the fattie or prematurely binning Emrakul or even milling away that protection spell that you need to ensure you go off.


In DRS related news, I like where we stand- mainboard graveyard hate is going to go down. However, this could lead to decks jamming their sideboards full of hate, which could be bad or at the very least, awkward.

Bitterblossom creates for an interesting scenario though, since decks with it now have flying blockers that can get in our way. Emrakul can clear the board somewhat, but a turn 2 Bitterblossom puts a lot of pressure on us to swing through by turn 4 before they have a large enough board presence to live through Annihilator. Some of the decks that run Bitterblossom might also be counterspell heavy, in which they can drop Bitterblossom and ride it to victory alongside flash threats.

Zoo is set to make a comeback, which means that we need to work on comboing quickly. Iirc, Zoo decks tend to shock themselves pretty low in those early turns, meaning that a t3 Emrakul could just win the game.

It'll be interesting to see what the top decks coming out of the Pro Tour will be, followed by how the format will adapt for GP Richmond.

I think the deck is going to be on everyone's radar more than it was after the GP, due to the theory that DRS was a big thing keeping this deck down (spoiler, it wasn't).

Also, I'm real happy that people are trying Creeping Tar Pit and are reporting solid results with it. Gaining that extra oomph without giving anything up seems to be the big thing holding the deck back (in my opinion).

No_Life_No_Future
02-07-2014, 06:17 AM
I guess one reason I didn't find Izzet Charm to be so wonderful is that I am already playing 8 ways to discard creatures (4x looting and 4x thoughtseize) and I am running Pyroclasm main. Also, the 2cc means that I couldn't reanimate Emrakul with it until turn 4.

In testing I have found Thought Scour to be interesting. I am running 4x Serum Visions which works well along side it as I can see what I will put into the graveyard. It also plays nicely with faithless looting's flashback. As far as the possibility of milling an Emrakul, I try to wait to use it until I can keep mana up for Goryo's Vengence (Turn 3). I had one game where I had a couple lands in play, a graveyard with no relevant spells and an empty hand. I topdecked Thought Scour. Played it. Milled Emrakul and drew Goryo's. I am not saying this is statistically significant, but it has potential to do broken things.

Not playing ramp and fury of the horde means I have more slots in the deck for disruption and cantrips. This makes the deck more consistent. I am usually trying for Goryo's Vengence as plan A and Breach as plan B. The 7 discard spells slow the opponent down considerably giving me more time to combo which is equivalent to ramping, except that it also keeps them off of their trump cards (counters, tap effects, graveyard hate, and removal for Griselbrand). If you go to combo and fail with Goryo's on Emrakul then you basically get 3 for 1ed. Discard prevents that from happening and gives you perfect information.

The downside is that you can't insta-win and you still have to finish out the game. However, this is a lot easier to do when your deck is designed to do so. If you hit with Griselbrand you can often reanimate next turn. Note, it is easy to discard a Griselbrand on cleanup step. If not, you can at least disrupt their hand and board and Goryo's/Through the breach the on a later turn after you cast some cantrips. I rarely need to draw more than 7 off of Griselbrand. If you put an Emrakul first then this leaves your hand more empty. However, it usually gives you a huge mana advantage. If you have tar-pit, 1 to 2 attacks can easily win the game. If not, then you have lots of mana and the cantrips make your deck good in a topdecking situation. The main way to lose after an Emrakul is if they have >6 permanents, or they have burn in hand and you are at a low lifetotal, or they have persist/undying type creatures in play like kitchen finks or wurmcoil engine.

I altered my manabase a little (changed fetches to 4x verdant catacombs and changed 1 watery grave into breeding pool) so that I could change my sideboard to include 2x Ancient Grudge. I have found that Grudge improves both the Tron (kills Oblivion Stone and Relic) and affinity matchup.

I also added the 4th Through the Breach to the main over a thought scour because you guys are right it adds consistency to the deck.

My current sideboard looks like this:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Ancient Grudge

4 Leyline of sanctity
Burn, Scapeshift?
They are good vs discard spells but I haven't boarded them in against Jund too much because liliana is not too scary (it can bin griselbrand) and boarding in 4 dead cards to sometimes blank 4-8 discard spells seems meh.

4 Leyline of the Void
Living End, Storm, Dredge/loam variants, mirror match.

2 Duress
Tron, Twin, Burn, UWr Control, UWr aggro, Storm, matchups where pryoclasm is not good and/or they have cryptic command

1 Pyroclasm
Pod, Affinity, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Poison, Weenie decks

2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
UWr Control, Merfolk, Delver, Scapeshift, Twin. This card is great vs slow control decks but the life loss and ETB tapped make it as not great against tempo. UWr often plays tech-edge (preventing through the breach) and this doesn't stop Cryptic Commands tap/draw.

2 Anicient Grudge
Tron, Affinity

The cards I have been boarding out are 3 Pyroclasm, 1-2 Thought Scour, 1 Through the breach versus faster decks.
The Leylines are great hate cards but they are pretty narrow and I am considering cutting them in favor of cards that improve other matches.

The bad match-ups are UWr Tempo, Twin, and Merfolk. They put you on a fast clock and have counter magic. The super annoying creatures are Cursecatcher, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Pestermite, and Deciever of Exarch.

I have been tempted to try abrupt decay and torpor orb. Thoughts?

JPoJohnson
02-07-2014, 10:47 AM
Why isn't anyone playing the Necrotic Ooze version? It's far more consistent.

seamonkeyman
02-07-2014, 11:21 AM
This is the Griselbannded thread. We're trying to get Grisel-banned.

I've heard about Ooze combo decks but never actually see one post any type of result. Meanwhile, this deck has at least had some successes at major events so I would debate your statement that Ooze combo is more consistent.
I'd like to see a list, but this isn't really the thread for it. If you start a thread for Ooze combo though I'd enjoy disussing it there.

JPoJohnson
02-07-2014, 12:26 PM
This is the Griselbannded thread. We're trying to get Grisel-banned.

I've heard about Ooze combo decks but never actually see one post any type of result. Meanwhile, this deck has at least had some successes at major events so I would debate your statement that Ooze combo is more consistent.
I'd like to see a list, but this isn't really the thread for it. If you start a thread for Ooze combo though I'd enjoy disussing it there.

Except they had 2 Day2 decks at the GP and the version focusing on attacking with Griselbrand had '1' loosely being the Fists of the Sun deck.

They use Grisebrand in order to win. Without him, they don't typically win. I'm not sure I see how it's completely different.

seamonkeyman
02-07-2014, 01:44 PM
Just found the list from the GP coverage site. Sorry, you're right - it most definitely qualifies in my mind.
Its slower, more contolling, and less all-in. I like it.

Have you played it before? How has it been working out for you?

Koby
02-07-2014, 02:45 PM
Except they had 2 Day2 decks at the GP and the version focusing on attacking with Griselbrand had '1' loosely being the Fists of the Sun deck.

They use Grisebrand in order to win. Without him, they don't typically win. I'm not sure I see how it's completely different.

The Necrotic Ooze version was OK before (it was a turn 4 deck primarily), but it relied HEAVILY on DRS to accelerate and close out the game. With DRS being gone, Necrotic Ooze loses a lot of its speed. It now relies even more heavily on Grisly Salvage and Goryo's Vengeance than before.

I prefer having Turn 2/3 kills with less regularity than to having a Turn 4 Ooze kill with some regularity. Each passing turn in Modern means less life total to work with and more potential disruption (typically counters, removal).

seamonkeyman
02-07-2014, 02:55 PM
So currently you'd be running something similar to the OP list?

JPoJohnson
02-07-2014, 02:55 PM
Just found the list from the GP coverage site. Sorry, you're right - it most definitely qualifies in my mind.
Its slower, more contolling, and less all-in. I like it.

Have you played it before? How has it been working out for you?

For those of you curious as to the deck that we are referencing:
Lands (22)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (18)
3 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Griselbrand
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Necrotic Ooze

Spells (20)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Lightning Axe
4 Soul Spike

Sideboard (15)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Pyroclasm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Through the Breach


Notes:
1. DRS is now banned in the modern format, so that's something that is both good AND bad. Obviously good because now you won't have that disruption, but now you don't have that potential Life Gain or Extra Life Loss. (both being key as they were either the finishing blow or the extra life you needed to survive through to finishing the combo).

2. You can win at instant speed on top of targetted removed on your ooze or your graveyard since you can draw and soul spike all on top of the stack. This means you can pass the turn and win during the opponent's turn.

3. People doing 4 damage to themselves isn't uncommon in a format dominated with Fetches and Shocks.

4. Having Borborygmos Enraged in the deck turns all your extra lands drawn with Griselbrand into instant speed free-to-cast Lightning Bolts. Great for removal and finishing off the game.

5. Lotleth Troll is difficult for quite a few people to answer. He is a big threat on his own and you can out-aggro the opponent sometimes with this. Also a fantastic way to discard your creatures into the graveyard at instant speed to turn on Ooze unexpectedly.

6. This version recovers much faster than the Fury of the Horde glass cannon. You don't get blown out by a well time counter spell as much because you don't have an all-in moment that is really counterable.

And lastly, a viable replacement for DRS will need to be found. I can see people simply dropping Birds of Paradise and saying ok done, but DRS added so much more than a bit of ramp. I'm not sure what could replace this slot. Secondly, people will probably run hard gravehate in their sideboards now with the lack of soft hate in the MB. We'll have to work around that.

No_Life_No_Future
02-14-2014, 07:40 AM
I just won 8 straight matches including another 8-man on MTGO. Matches in the 8-man were URG Scapeshift, UR Storm, and RG Scapeshift. Leyline of the Void was a MVP against storm. I have most of the deck foiled out in real life... missing only Thoughtsieze and fetches. This deck is going to give me a reason to travel to some tournaments. I added a 3rd creeping tar pit to the maindeck and swapped some Sleight of hand for Thought Scour which is awesome. I usually hold Thoughtscour until turn 3 when I have Goryo's mana available for Emrakul. I've also added 2 Darkblast which I have found to be pretty good vs Pod and aggro decks. It combos well with thought scour and looting and enables Goryo's Vengence.

Here is the deck:
Lands(20):
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Gemtstone Mine
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp

Cantrips(13):
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour

Disruption(11):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pyroclasm
2 Darkblast

Combo(16):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach

Sideboard(15):
2 Pyroclasm
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge

I won several games off of turn 3 emrakul put into the graveyard by Faithless Looting, Thought Scour or Thoughtsieze. I also had a couple wins off of turn 2 Griselbrand draw 7. Overall I am pretty happy with the deck except for only a few match-ups: Twin, Merfolk, and UWR. Has anyone tried my build?

Edit to avoid double post:
I played another 8-man again tonight. I took first. Matches were: tribal flames zoo, Scapeshift, and UW Tron.

Koby
02-17-2014, 12:21 AM
I posted an update of my list to the OP (edits rather).

One thing I forgot to mention, was using Defense Grid against U/x tempo decks, and likely in place of -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Echoing Truth -1 Vandalblast +3 Grids.

I can't predict the new Modern metagame, so we'll wait for the PT and see how the PTQ metagame shapes up.

Jessenator
02-19-2014, 01:18 PM
I posted an update of my list to the OP (edits rather).

One thing I forgot to mention, was using Defense Grid against U/x tempo decks, and likely in place of -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Echoing Truth -1 Vandalblast +3 Grids.

I can't predict the new Modern metagame, so we'll wait for the PT and see how the PTQ metagame shapes up.

How needed do you think Fury of the Horde is actually in this deck? It doesn't help with business, it's only really reasonably good with Griselbrand (barring that you have enough life). I'm sure you've thought of all the pros / cons about this card. Why is it so necessary in this deck, wouldn't it just be better dedicating more sources to guarantee Griselbrand Breach/Reanimation?

Koby
02-19-2014, 01:23 PM
It's not entirely necessary, but it allows you to win games on the spot and gives you the option of waiting until the very last second to go off (say, a low life total). Sometimes, having Fury in your hand means being able to win with Emrakul with a 2nd attack.

What's the point of playing with Griselbrand if you are not drawing your whole deck in one sitting? :)

movadomk5
02-20-2014, 02:01 PM
Koby what's your plan and sb strategy against zoo and infect?

Koby
02-20-2014, 02:51 PM
Vs Zoo, EE and Firespout can help slow Zoo down while you try to reanimate Emrakul to stabilze for a few more turns.

Vs Infect, Ancient Grudge to kill off some of the dorks. Otherwise, it's just a race. Izzet Charm is really good in this matchup for all three modes.

seamonkeyman
02-20-2014, 03:42 PM
Last night I was tested quite a few games vs. Zoo (Experiment One version with KotR at the top end of the curve, no Tribal Flames) I was using a list very similar to the OP list, all of the games were pre-board. I won 70-80% of them.
They goldfish on T4 or T5, while we are most times much faster than that.
Since they have to bolt themselves for every Dual that was fetched, Emrakul would usually win with one swing.

While I agree with Koby that EE and Firespout would be good against them, I don't think we need that much hate for Zoo - without Counters we're just a faster combo deck than they are.

Fairies on the other hand has been terrible for me in testing. Counterspells plus a clock mixed with some discard is very difficult.

Obviously there will be some cards to bring in vs. Zoo, but don't pack your board for it.

movadomk5
02-25-2014, 02:14 AM
Here's my current build Acclimation:

// Deck: Griselcannon (60)

// Lands
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave

// Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Instants
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Izzet Charm
4 Through the Breach

// Sorceries
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Thoughtseize

// Artifacts
3 Pentad Prism

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Vandalblast

Breeding pool should be a stomping ground with the importance on red I just haven't picked one up yet. Also, not sure if the option for abrupts are really worth it but could help with firespout.

Acclimation
02-25-2014, 02:20 AM
Here's my current build Acclimation:

-sir not appearing in this post-

Breeding pool should be a stomping ground with the importance on red I just haven't picked one up yet. Also, not sure if the option for abrupts are really worth it but could help with firespout.

Looks solid to me. How often did you mulligan, and what were your requirements to keep a specific hand?

movadomk5
02-25-2014, 03:04 AM
Oddly I haven't had to mulligan much (prob just luck) except when knowingly going up against tribal flames zoo (which I still need to do better testing against)

I generally look between having a fatty/engine, dig and the rest mana with hopefully a prism or guide. My first goal is to go with breach on t3 hopefully with proper ramp but if I feel the window is open for goryo's I switch gears. I would say treat it similar to t3 win Tin Fins hands for comparison where you would be targeting yourself with discard spells but instead using looting effects. If i can't go off on t2 with Grisel I tend to just go off on the next opponents EoT so I can have my turn to dig via spells or Grisel.

A simple Emmy swing wins most games due to shocks and fetches along with getting them to commit permanents to the board. I have been finding myself getting them to 5 or less then hard casting a guide and swinging over 2 turns then going for the Grisel + Fury wins.

Edit: To add I love how I loaded up Holy Grail into my computer, saw you replied and then saw the reference in your post!!!

Acclimation
02-25-2014, 03:18 AM
Oddly I haven't had to mulligan much (prob just luck) except when knowingly going up against tribal flames zoo (which I still need to do better testing against)

I generally look between having a fatty/engine, dig and the rest mana with hopefully a prism or guide. My first goal is to go with breach on t3 hopefully with proper ramp but if I feel the window is open for goryo's I switch gears. I would say treat it similar to t3 win Tin Fins hands for comparison where you would be targeting yourself with discard spells but instead using looting effects. If i can't go off on t2 with Grisel I tend to just go off on the next opponents EoT so I can have my turn to dig via spells or Grisel.

A simple Emmy swing wins most games due to shocks and fetches along with getting them to commit permanents to the board. I have been finding myself getting them to 5 or less then hard casting a guide and swinging over 2 turns then going for the Grisel + Fury wins.

Edit: To add I love how I loaded up Holy Grail into my computer, saw you replied and then saw the reference in your post!!!

Good info.

Great timing on my part!

Koby
03-03-2014, 12:41 PM
I started to keep track of matchups that I face on MTGO. Played and recorded (stats, not videos) of about 8 matches so far. Only two losses: Zoo & Merfolk -- any guesses why? :)

seamonkeyman
03-03-2014, 01:58 PM
My guesses:
Zoo - inconsistenty got you. They goldfish fast, if you stumble they will get you.
Merfolk - Probably one of the worst matchups since they have cheap counters and a clock. If they land an early Vial, and then the cursecatcher with a lord they can provide enough pressure to end the game quickly while keeping counter mana up.

6-2 is a great record though. What were your wins against and any insight from those matches?

Koby
03-03-2014, 06:39 PM
Vs Zoo, indeed was a race between the deck's (in)consistency vs Zoo's speed. If you skip a beat you're get clocked. EE for 1 seems to help, as does Firespout.

Vs. Merfolk, I managed to win a quick G1; then G2 I'm about to close out the game with Emrakul when my opponent Vial's in Phantasmal Image as the 7th permanent... G3, Mutavaults clock me while he's got Mana Leak mana up.

A large majority of the matches are against UR/x Twin and Tempo decks. They seem pretty easy to beat with Thoughtseize and timing vs their tapping out.

seamonkeyman
03-03-2014, 10:09 PM
Why do you have 2/1 split of clasm/firespout?
When is Pryroclasm better than Firespout?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Koby
03-04-2014, 01:46 PM
Why do you have 2/1 split of clasm/firespout?
When is Pryroclasm better than Firespout?


When DRS was around, Pyroclasm made much more sense. Now, Firespout is better as it kills a majority of Zoo's creatures. I swapped the numbers on the two. Pyroclasm is still useful vs Pod & Affinity. I've updated the OP with my most recently tested SB. Included is also the 2 Defense Grid which have been testing extremely well vs Blue decks. It often draws a counterspell, or if resolves, compltely invalidates them.

kingsey
03-04-2014, 05:29 PM
Long time legacy player here. I'm thinking of entering the format and this would be my deck of choice. Question has anyone tried a red and black list and try to run blood moon MD? Or are the options the other colors give that impressive.?

Also instead of fury of the horde has anyone used fling or the red card that gives double strike ? They both only cast 1 and can be cast easily off of a spirit guide.

Lord Seth
03-04-2014, 08:41 PM
Long time legacy player here. I'm thinking of entering the format and this would be my deck of choice. Question has anyone tried a red and black list and try to run blood moon MD? Or are the options the other colors give that impressive.?

Also instead of fury of the horde has anyone used fling or the red card that gives double strike ? They both only cast 1 and can be cast easily off of a spirit guide.
Well actually, Fling costs 2, but never mind that.

The big issue with the double strike card is pretty simple: It's extraordinarily vulnerable to chump blocking. This is less of a problem with Emrakul (because Annihilator has a good chance of taking out any blockers), but if you're going off with Griselbrand, you don't have that advantage. A single Bitterblossom token renders Assault Strobe useless. If you cast it on Griselbrand and swing into a token, you gain 7 life... and then Griselbrand doesn't deal regular damage because there's nothing to deal it to. In other words, if they can chump block Griselbrand, then Assault Strobe literally doesn't do anything at all; you still gain 7 life, their creature still dies, and that's it. Fury of the Horde, on the other hand, lets you untap and attack again, this time (hopefully) with no chump blockers. You can't use Assault Strobe to take an extra combat step.

Additionally, if you don't have an Assault Strobe when you attack with Griselbrand, you can't get any benefit from it. Griselbrand attacking gains you 7 life, meaning you can draw 7 extra cards, giving you a much higher chance of drawing Fury of the Horde. If you draw that after attacking, it does something. If you draw Assault Strobe after attacking, it does nothing.

As for Fling, it's a little better in that it has a purpose after attacking. And it's certainly very powerful with Emrakul, letting you hit for another 15 damage. But again, it's far less powerful with Griselbrand. Fury of the Hordes is just the better option--not only can it be used multiple times, when you use it, you gain 7 life from the damage Griselbrand inflicts. That's not true for Fling.

kingsey
03-07-2014, 10:15 PM
Anyone with input on a more R/B list with blood moon main?

The items have started to arrive i'm looking forward to playing this deck :smile:

No_Life_No_Future
04-06-2014, 03:46 PM
I have been grinding with this deck on MTGO and it is pretty good.

Bad Match-ups:
Twin, Faeries, Merfolk

Mediocre Match-ups:
Pod, Uwr, BG Rock

Good Matchups:
Affinity, Burn, Storm, Scapeshift, Tron, Zoo, Boogles, Monogreen Devotion, Adnausem/Angel's Grace, Crackclan Ironworks, BW tokens, Soul Sisters... etc

I won 15 qps in 3 days (Force of Will promo) on MTGO by playing modern 8-mans and daily events with this list:

Lands(20):
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Gemtstone Mine
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp

Cantrips(12):
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Faithless Looting

Disruption(13):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Izzet Charm

Combo(19):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
3 Pentad Prism

Sideboard(15):
2 Pyroclasm
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge

I listened to the advice you guys gave and I tried Pentad Prism. I originally had dismissed it because it is a dead card and I try to avoid card disadvantage because I am not playing the all-in combo version (Fury of the Horde), but I have to admit it has been working really well. It makes Through the Breach a full 2 turns faster and allows you to play around tech edge. It enables you to play around remand in the early game (recast goryo's). I was wrong about it and now that I tried it I am convinced that 3 copies are mandatory in the maindeck.

The cards I feel are weakest in the deck are:
3 Inquisition
If only cabal therapy were legal..... I prefer this over duress because of Twin and Pod. This card is great, but you can't use it on yourself and you cant hit cryptic. Other than that there have been so many games where I have cast it turn 1 to nail a backbreaking 2-3 drop (Scavenging Ooze, Rest in Peace, Deceiver of Exarch, Pestermite). It is great to have cards that are 1cc disruption after an animated griselbrand. Ex. 1st Turn faithless looting discard Griselbrand. 2nd Turn Goryo's Griselbrand, into inquisition/thoughtseize game over.
Or 1st and second turn sculpt your hand with cantrips while disrupting them with thoughtsieze/inquisition and then turn 3 faithless looting into goryo's on emrakul drop tarpit GG.

2 Izzet Charm
It is really hard on the manabase and with so many cantrips its hard to leave up the mana for it. Its draw discard is card disadvantage and expensive. Many times I would much rather have Pyroclasm and then maybe I could open up some more board slots. It can hit ooze(situational) or cannonist but it just too slow. The one thing that this has going for it is that it is versatile.


Cards to Test for the sideboard:
Spellskite
Torpor Orb
Trickbind
Pithing Needle

Some questions for you guys:
Is my manabase optimal? (2 or 3 tarpit? 1 boseiju main? # of lands? color of duals? # of ETBT >3 lands?)
Are there any other cards I should test?

Koby
04-07-2014, 06:05 PM
Interesting. You definitely lose out on the ability to win games all in one turn. Perhaps you can talk about some of the lines of play you were making with the deck to give us a better feel for how it plays?

No_Life_No_Future
04-08-2014, 06:47 AM
Interesting. You definitely lose out on the ability to win games all in one turn. Perhaps you can talk about some of the lines of play you were making with the deck to give us a better feel for how it plays?

How the deck plays depends a lot on the matchup and the situation, but I will try to generalize. The deck usually tries to create a dominating position on turn 3. Here are some possible scenarios:


Turn 2 Griselbrand via Goryo's Vengeance (The Nuts):

An ideal situation is one where you have Faithless Looting and Griselbrand in your opening hand and 2 non ETBT lands. If I only have Faithless Looting and no Griselbrand then I usually hold it in hand until turn 3 so that I can have the 2 mana open for Goryo's Vengeance on Emrakul in response to its trigger. If you are on the play a turn 1 Faithless Looting turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance is great as the opponent has very few ways to interact (Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Spellsnare, Spellpierce, Dispel, Grafdigger's cage, Disrupting Shoal...thats about it). On the draw postboard I would usually opt for a turn 1 Thoughtsieze or Inquisition of Kozilek over faithless looting (depends on matchup). Always lead with Inquisition over Thoughsieze, because Thoughtseize is more flexible and can be used to target yourself. Leading with discard spells allows you to avoid situations like T1 Faithless looting discarding Griselbrand T2 Opponent plays Rest in Peace...sigh. If you know what your opponent is playing and you know they can't interact or you have mulliganed into oblivion and you feel it is worth the risk, you can thoughtsieze yourself turn 1 to setup a turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance on Griselbrand.


Once you have Griselbrand in play on turn 2 attack. Pretty much the only card that is commonly played that interacts is path to exile (sometimes celestial purge from the board). If they path fine... Draw 7 and get a swamp, if not they take 7 you draw 7. Now you have 11-12 cards in hand. If your hand doesn't do anything then depending on the matchup you may want to draw another 7, but this is rare (beware that drawing multiple Emrakul is awkward because you usually want to keep Griselbrands and Faithless Lootings in your graveyard). Now since you have no mana you must discard down to 7. You want to keep the cards that lead to you putting in another creature, preferably an Emrakul, as soon as possible. If you can discard a Griselbrand this is a nice setup play for Goryo's Vengence. You may want to keep 2-3 lands in hand so that you have the option to Through the Breach later. Keep the lands that match your color requirements and that don't come into play tapped on turn 4-5. At this point you can usually finish the game within the next 2-3 turns by disrupting the opponent with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize and getting an Emrakul onto the battlefield via Through the Breach often enabled by Pentad Prism or Goryo's Veneance enabled by Faithless Looting, Thoughtsieze, Izzet Charm.


Turn 3 Emrakul (The Second Nuts)
This play is usually set up in 2 ways. Faithless Looting or Thoughtsieze discarding Emrakul and responding to the trigger with Goryo's Vengeance or 2nd turn Pentad Prism into 3rd Turn Through the Breach. Once Emrakul is on the battlefield the only common way your oppoent can interact is with Pestermite, Deceiver of Exarch, and Cryptic Command. This will normally leave your opponent without permanents. Their lifetotal after an emrakul swing depends on thier manabase. If they are not already dead one Creeping tar pit can usually finish the game.
Ex. Turn 1 UB Land into Thoughtsieze/Inquisition
Turn 2 Creeping Tarpit into second Thoughtsieze/Inquisition or Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand
Turn 3 RB Land into Faithless Looting, Goryo's Vengeance on Emrakul
Turn 4 play land activate Tarpit FTW

Most of my wins involve cheating an Emrakul into play.

A Couple of Tricks:
-Against counter spells it is sometimes best to try to Through the Breach/Goryo's Vengeance on their end step and then when they tap out to counter it you try again on your turn.
-Goryo's Vengeance on Griselbrand is often a good removal spell that draws you 7 cards. Sometimes the opponent will even be afraid to attack into the possibility of it being reanimated.
-Sometimes you may wan't to wait a turn before putting in Emrakul so that you can annihilate a few more permanents. (depends on matchup).

To summarize, the deck often establishes its combo on turn 2-3 and finishes the game on turn 4-5.
Common Wins include:
Turn 2-3 Griselbrand into 4-5 Emrakul.
Turn 3-4 Emrakul into a turn 4-5 Creeping Tarpit
Turn 2-3 Griselbrand into 3-4 Griselbrand into 4-5 Tarpit

FTW
04-08-2014, 06:36 PM
The big issue with the double strike card is pretty simple: It's extraordinarily vulnerable to chump blocking. This is less of a problem with Emrakul

There is a much bigger problem with Emrakul, though, in that Emrakul has protection from colored spells... so Fury vs Strobe is irrelevant.

Fling, however, is quite good with Emrakul. But when you're going off with Emrakul, you won't be drawing 21 cards to find 2 spirit guides to generate the extra mana to cast Fling.

Lord Seth
04-10-2014, 07:50 PM
I feel odd asking a "how do I beat your deck?" question, but I am curious: If someone casts Slaughter Games, which is the best card for them to name? The obvious candidates are Griselbrand, Emrakul, Goryo's Vengeance, and Through the Breach.

It seems to me that if you don't have graveyard hate available (in which case you'd name Through the Breach, as your graveyard hate takes care of Goryo's Vengeance), the best choice would be Griselbrand, because he can actually win the game for you the turn he comes down with Fury of the Hordes, whereas Emrakul, while capable of destroying the opponent's game state, doesn't win the game by himself. Am I correct?

Koby
04-24-2014, 01:35 PM
I feel odd asking a "how do I beat your deck?" question, but I am curious: If someone casts Slaughter Games, which is the best card for them to name? The obvious candidates are Griselbrand, Emrakul, Goryo's Vengeance, and Through the Breach.

It seems to me that if you don't have graveyard hate available (in which case you'd name Through the Breach, as your graveyard hate takes care of Goryo's Vengeance), the best choice would be Griselbrand, because he can actually win the game for you the turn he comes down with Fury of the Hordes, whereas Emrakul, while capable of destroying the opponent's game state, doesn't win the game by himself. Am I correct?

It's highly situational, but you hit the 4 important cards in the deck. You generally want to hit the creatures, and generally name Griselbrand; unless taking a hit from Emrakul is going to just wipe you out completely. Goryo's Vengeance is likely the last card you want to name, as it requires set-up with discarding. If the g/y already has Griselbrand, you may just want to name Griselbrand instead too.

No_Life_No_Future
04-25-2014, 06:51 PM
In the version I play without Fury of the Horde Emrakul would be the correct name, however slaughter games is too slow. What deck are you playing the hate cards in? I have seen slaughter games come out of the board from tron, but honestly its pretty weak compared to their relic of progenitus and oblivion stones.

You have inspired me to make a rough list of the hate cards I have run into online.

Creatures:
Scavenging Ooze (Melira Pod, URg Twin, BG Rock)
Pestermite (Twin)
Deceiver of Exarch (Twin)
Vendilion Clique (Faeries, UWr, Twin)
Ethersworn Canonist (Pod, Death and Taxes)
Tidehollow Sculler (BW Tokens)
Sin Collector (Pod)
Entomber Exarch (Pod)
Thalia (Death and Taxes)
Gaddock Teeg (Pod)
Curse Catcher (Merfolk)

Counterspells:
Izzet Charm
Remand
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Dispell
Mana Leak
Cryptic Command
Counterflux
Pact of Negation
Disrupting Shoal

Discard:
Thoughtsieze
Inquisition of Kozilek
Raven's Crime

Other Instant/Sorcery:
Rakdos Charm (Burn)
Surgical Extraction (Mill)
Jund Charm (Living End)
Flames of the Blood Hand (Burn)
Skull Crack (Burn)
Slaughter Games

Artifacts:
Relic of Progenitus (Tron)
Oblivion Stone (Tron)
Grafdigger's Cage
Ensnaring Bridge (Mono Black Discard)
Tormod's Crypt
Nehil Spellbomb

Enchantments:
Rest in Peace (Uwr, Bw Tokens, Mono White)
Ghostly Prism
Sphere of Safety

Land:
Tech Edge
Bojuka bog

I probably missed some, but if you want to beat this deck play some of these cards and a fast clock.

Lord Seth
05-01-2014, 11:47 PM
In the version I play without Fury of the Horde Emrakul would be the correct name, however slaughter games is too slow. What deck are you playing the hate cards in? I have seen slaughter games come out of the board from tron, but honestly its pretty weak compared to their relic of progenitus and oblivion stones.I play Tron. And while admittedly Slaughter Games is a bit slow (no slower than Oblivion Stone, though), it hits Griselcannon significantly if you do get to cast it. And the 4x Pyroclasm 2x Spellskite maindeck have to be replaced with something, and Slaughter Games is a whole lot better than, say, Combust.

movadomk5
06-10-2014, 01:56 AM
I adapted the list posted earlier utilizing a slightly slower combo but with more discard disruption and creeping tar pits. The tar pits have been pretty effective at getting people low so combining off is easier or simply finishing them off after going off mainly annihilating their board.

I also added Soul Spike since 1 I have a 40% black count and only 20% red and 2 it feels like a slightly less dead card then fury when I'm not going off. Also it can catch creature hate, clocks or parts of opposing combos.

// Deck: Grisel Spike (60)

// Lands
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Blood Crypt
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave

// Creatures
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

// Spells
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Izzet Charm
2 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Soul Spike
4 Thoughtseize
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

Let me know what you guys think.

capricorn
06-25-2014, 01:08 PM
Hey, would plunge into darkness with pull from eternity be worth doing in this deck? The idea being you have either goryo's vengeance or pull from enternity in your hand and then plunge for the other, while exiling a griselbrand or emrakul and then use pull from eternity to basically entomb it. Plunge also supports the normal kill too by getting you whatever piece you need to go off (faithless looting, creature, goryo's, through the breach).


I've been playing this deck for a while. Here are some changes I made and reasons for them.

Removed Pentad Prism and added Desperate Ritual . Too many times I draw cards and get Fury of the Horde , a red card and a Pentad Prism . Desperate Ritual pitches and ramps to Through the Breach when needed. It is a trade-off, but one I have opted to make.

To fix color and dig through the deck, I have attempted to add Manamorphose as it pitches to fury as well. It has also acted similar to a Tin Fins Lotus Petal and allowed me to replace one Emrakul, The Aeons Torn with a one-of Children of Korlis since Griselbrand kills for me and closes off the game much more often than Emrakul, The Aeons Torn I have opted to enable him more consistently.

I do like the Plunge into Darkness suggestion and since it could play well with Children of Korlis , I may give it a try.

I have thought about Infernal Tutor as I frequently end up hellbent wishing I could draw a Goryo's Vengeance but have not yet found the true motivation to include it. I went to Manamorphose instead.

capricorn
06-27-2014, 11:10 AM
Just thought I would post my list to record as I do intend to make more changes.

// Creatures (11)
4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Sorceries (8)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde

// Instants (26)
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Izzet Charm
3 Peer Through Depths
2 Lightning Axe
1 Pact of Negation

// Lands (15)
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Temple of Malice

// Sideboard
2 Wear // Tear
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shatterstorm
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
1 Thoughtseize

Anyway, that is the list as I played it last night in a small 8-man. After seeing this list here ( http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/76559 ) I think I may find a way to make room for Ideas Unbound .

The list in the url looks questionable to me though as I wonder if there are enough red cards where Fury of the Horde is always easily active but since it placed in Top 4 out of 231 players my opinion is more suspect.

Personally, I have found such good use in Manamorphose , that I don't know if I would want to cut it.

Anyway, welcoming insights....

Koby
06-30-2014, 07:09 PM
15 lands seems a bit greedy. I like 18 myself, because of Pentad Prism acting as 2->4 mana ramp across two turns.

Fuzzy
07-24-2014, 08:37 AM
Hello everyone!

I'm going to play this deck on a PTQ this Sunday and I need some help. First of all, my decklist will be something like this:

4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Izzet Charm
4 Faithless Looting
3 Pentad Prism
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Axe

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Wear // Tear
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Defense Grid
3 Thoughtseize

Pacts are on MD because I just don't wanna scoop to Path, plus it adds consistence against shit like Remand or Pestermite.

My big concern is the red count. 21 cards is enough to not fizzle the double red requirement from Fury of the Horde?

capricorn
07-24-2014, 02:02 PM
15 lands seems a bit greedy. I like 18 myself, because of Pentad Prism acting as 2->4 mana ramp across two turns.

It may seem greedy but in playing it, I was not short on mana. I was digging through the deck faster and able to find land anyway. My only challenge was in trying to determine color if needed.

Example:

land and simian spirit guide to desperate ritual to manamorphose

If i say 1 red, 1 black i could faithless into a goryo's vengence turn 1 but if I draw an izzet charm i am stalled.

I just was liking it over other choices as they all pitch to fury of the horde later on. These cards just seems to require more consideration in play timing. I also seem to be able to draw and dig fast enough to be able to use a combination of desperate rituals and simian spirit guides to cast through the breach. it is just harder to deal with a mana leak i think so i return to pact of negation.

capricorn
07-25-2014, 01:26 AM
So for some background, I can (of course) only share my impressions and experiences.

I have been playing this deck for close to a year. Most recently I have been playing Tin-Fins in legacy as well. This is just a summary of some of what I have found strong and fragile across various builds of the deck.

Typically (or originally) I would see a lot of lists using Pentad Prism . While I did originally find this card useful in powering out an early Through the Breach I found that it was lackluster for 2 reasons. It had stronger interaction for the deck when using Thirst for Knowledge but was awkward if thirst was cast without a prism in hand and it was also awkward when drawing with Griselbrand would net me a Fury of the Horde and what would then become a useless Prism.

For the above mentioned reasons, I opted to play Desperate Ritual over the Prism. So this gave me red mana but not mana of any color which was a purpose served well by the Prism. I decided to try Manamorphose . This card functioned well enough and assisted with digging through the deck in such a way that I was able to see as many as 12 card in my first turn on the play. I seemed to get flooded and reduced the land count to the 15 shown previously.

I have since decided to refrain from playing any of the temples as I would rather cast faithless looting on turn 1 rather than scry and after that I do not want my lands to come into play tapped. For the second reason, I had also been trying to avoid the use of Boseiju, Who Shelters All . When I became open-minded enough to try it recently however, I have becaome a fan although I still think I only want one in the main.

I did recently try the previously listed version using Ideas Unbound but seemed to side it out first in all the games I have played.

So this weekend is GP Boston and I will be packing this deck. I have decided to add some versatility cards in the main for a better game 1 against what I anticipate as a majority (Pod, Twin and Kiki, Storm, Affinity and Cascade).

Keep in mind I am no pro but I will try to put some reasoning next to cards that I have not already described.

Considerations include:

1 - The main goal for me is to make as many things exile to Fury of the Horde as possible.
2 - Cutting Peer through Depths for 2 reasons. To cast it and watch Griselbrand go by is counter-productive. Also, see reason 1.



// Creatures (12)
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Sorceries (9)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
1 Pyroclasm

// Instants (24)
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Izzet Charm
1 Lightning Axe
2 Pact of Negation
1 Wear // Tear

// Lands (15)
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp

// Sideboard (15)
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Trickbind
1 Vapor Snag
1 Combust
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Pact

Anyway, that is what I have come up with for the time being. Sorry my other comment was so brief and non-descriptive. I was otherwise engaged.

Anyway, welcoming insights....

capricorn
07-25-2014, 01:52 AM
Hello everyone!

I'm going to play this deck on a PTQ this Sunday and I need some help. First of all, my decklist will be something like this:

4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Izzet Charm
4 Faithless Looting
3 Pentad Prism
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Axe

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Wear // Tear
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Defense Grid
3 Thoughtseize

Pacts are on MD because I just don't wanna scoop to Path, plus it adds consistence against shit like Remand or Pestermite.

My big concern is the red count. 21 cards is enough to not fizzle the double red requirement from Fury of the Horde?

Please consider this (unless you have already done so).

For me, I could not successfully use City of Brass. The life was too much. I have stopped playing Thoughtseize for a similar reason.

Emrakul has not closed the game out for me nearly as often as Griselbrand but in order for Griselbrand to do his "job" I have to be able to draw cards and so my life total is incredibly important. I am not sure what City of Brass is doing that Gemstone Mine could not (aside from staying useful through a counterspell (especially remand) based deck. Have you noticed any difficulty in regards to that?

If the red count is a concern, then drawing the next seven may be that much more important.

Fuzzy
07-25-2014, 09:41 AM
Please consider this (unless you have already done so).

For me, I could not successfully use City of Brass. The life was too much. I have stopped playing Thoughtseize for a similar reason.

Emrakul has not closed the game out for me nearly as often as Griselbrand but in order for Griselbrand to do his "job" I have to be able to draw cards and so my life total is incredibly important. I am not sure what City of Brass is doing that Gemstone Mine could not (aside from staying useful through a counterspell (especially remand) based deck. Have you noticed any difficulty in regards to that?

If the red count is a concern, then drawing the next seven may be that much more important.

First of all, thanks for the feedback.

I don't know about you, but my plan isn't run a long game. That being said, I believe CoB would deal less damage than, say, fetch into dual. I think it's just a bad Gemstone Mine, since I won't tap it more than three times.

Emrakul is probably the worst card in this deck. It's harder to setup, do nothing on it's own and sometimes can't even kill your opponent in one shot. I even think I should replace 2 copies for Time of Need, even that being a worst card.

About the red count, I don't know if I was clear enough: Should I replace something for more red cards? (Wild Guess, Lightning Axe and/or Desperate Ravings). Since I'm running all the Pacts I don't really want to fizzle for something stupid like this... :rolleyes:

DVloss
07-27-2014, 07:24 PM
Hello everyone, I'm a newer player to the competitive scene of magic and I thought i'd share my own decklist variant and results of my second fnm modern tournament.
As you'll notice the variant i play doesn't run some of the staples of other variants like fury of the hordesimian spirit guideor pentad prism
So without further ado this is my list i ran

Main Deck

4x faithless looting
4x goryo's vengeance
3x through the breach
4x sleight of hand
4x thoughtseize
4x izzet charm
1x lightning axe
1x echoing truth
4x snapcaster mage
4x griselbrand
4x emrakul, the aeons torn
3x blackcleave cliffs
3x darkslick shores
4x scalding tarn
4x gemstone mine
1x watery grave
1x blood crypt
2x steam vents
1x breeding pool
1x mountain
1x island
1x swamp

Sideboard
4x leyline of sanctity
2x abrupt decay
2x anger of the gods
1x boseiju, who shelters all
1x obzedat, ghost council
2x torpor orb
2x spellskite
(was panning on an ancient grudge but couldnt find one before the tourney started)

This deck aims to play in a more controlling and responsive way then the fury of the horde version does. Between a full set of thoughtseize,izzet charm,lightning axe,echoing truth and a full set of snapcaster mage this deck can interact frequently on the first couple of turns which is more of my preferred style.
Snapcaster Mage- was just an all-star in this deck between giving me value from the cheap instants and sorceries, applying pressure,finishing the last points of damage, or playing defense. I can't remember ever having it in my hand and being unhappy about it.
Lightning Axe- is i card i think would be good in this version as it gives me a couple more early plays to interact with and you can discard to faithless looting if the matchup doesnt call for it. also works well with snapcaster mage in that the opponent always has to realize that you can snap-axe. This is a tricky play for your opponent depending on turn and mana where he can counter this leaving your combo up next turn or letting it resolve which is fine as well
Sleight of hand- I just prefer this card for digging over similar spells like serum visions
Diabolic tutor- Now this is a card that i haven't played a lot with so i'm really testing this card. Since i'm not playing any ramp effects i don't need to hit a through the breach super early since i can't cast it until turn 5 anyway. The tutor acts as my 4th breach with the flexibility to find me one of my creatures if i already have a breach or a sideboard card if helpful. I also think it's alright because it costs 4 so i can play this on turn 4 to breach on the next turn without losing any tempo. This is also a card that i think can hedge a little against thoughtseize because if he takes a combo piece you can tutor up another one later if he doesnt have multiple dicards or if he takes the tutor it doesn't really hurt that much because you can't play it until turn 4 anyway and you might not need it at all

Now the fun part: Matches!

Round 1: vs Blue/White Coontrol

Game 1: This deck from the get go just seemed like it played 35 counterspells and 25 lands as it didn't really do anything although he did land an early meddling mage naming izzet charm because i discarded one to a faithless looting a turn earlier. He beat down with the mage and played draw go the whole time. I was able to build up my hand where i was able to force him to use a lot of resources in one turn by thoughtseizing, snapcaster- thoughtseize, another thoughtseize which the third one finally resolved. The turn after that i snapcaster thoughtseized again to finally clear the way for a griselbrand-vengeance combo on the turn, drawing 7 afterwards and passing. My life at 5 he couldn't get through with his mage and passed. I thoughtseized him again clearing the way for a breach emrakul to finish him off.

Sideboard:+ 1 boseiju, -1 breeding pool

Game 2: This game was my favorite game of the night. He played telepathy so i couldn't use any tricks. We played draw-go with a couple cantrips/lootings here and there until he tapped out for a drogskol reaver on his turn. I emrakul-breached him down to 3 life, one land, and the reaver left in play. I had a snapcaster, emrakul, lightning axe in my hand. goryo's vengeance in the graveyard. the next two turns he hit me twice with reaver, going back to 15 and having 3 lands untapped for the death blow next turn. i was at 6 life, drew my card and he said, "it doesn't matter i have an answer for it anyway". I drew a vengeance, Lightning axe'd his reaver discarding emrakul, casting goryo's vengeance in response to which he ever so happily dissolved. after his counterspell resolved i snapcaster-vengeance in response the the emrakul trigger and his face was just a mix between disbelief/shock/and anger. Record 1-0

Round 2: vs Blue Tron
My next opponent is a guy named Steve. We've been playing together before getting into competitive magic so we've played each other a lot with these decks

Game 1: He drew Tron naturally, got an oblivion stone out, got treasure mage into sundering titan and proceeded to smash my face easily

Sideboard: +1 Boseiju, +2 torpor orb, -1 breeding pool -1 lightning axe, -1 echoing truth

Game 2: He dropped 2 talismans early and a map. I had a thoughtsieze to clear the way for an emrakul- breach turn and finsihed him off with snapcaster beats a couple turns later

Game 3: He took some talisman damage early and got an early treasure mage once but i had an early faithless looting- emrakul- vengeance turn when he tapped out. One hit from a snapcaster a couple turns after finished him Record 2-0

Round 3: vs Storm

Game 1: I tried to dig as fast as possible under goblin electromancer beats but he comboe'd me off at 10 life.

Sideboard: +1 Anger of the gods, +4 Leyline, + Obzedat,+ 1 abrupt decay - 4 izzet charms, -1 lightning axe, -1 diabolic tutor, -1 echoing truth ( i'm not sure how good izzet charms are in this matchup? seems they can just ignore it pretty easily)

Game 2: I got a turn 2 obzedat in play and he couldn't do anything.

Game 3: He took 5 damage from his steam vents early and played blood moon turn 3 leaving me with basic island and 2 mountains. He was building up his hand as i got a couple more nonbasics in play. My hand at this point was 2 goryo vengeance,looting,snapcaster, emrakul, and griselbrand was in the yard. I drew my basic swamp, played it and passed. He probe'd me, saw my hand, and was forced to try to go off which he wasn't able to manage. Record 3-0

Round 4: vs Boros (a lot of burn)

Game 1: I thoughtseized first turn and saw boros reckoner, a bunch of burn, and thundermaw hellkite. I took reckoner as it provides a lot of pressure and i can't deal with it. He burned me hard the first couple of turns and dropped a reckoner on turn 3. I snap-thoughtseized his hellkite and emrakul- breached him later leaving him with just a reckoner and down to 8 as he played a lightning helix earlier. I went down to one chumping with snapcaster to live and i topdecked my echoing truth to save me. I double snapped the next two turns and finished him off with nothing in play.

Sideboard: +2 abrupt decay, +2 spellskite, - 4 thoughtseize

Game 2: I dropped a turn 2 spellskite and proceeded to play control throughout the game with using abrupt decay 4 times via snapcaster mage until i could finish him off with an emrakul- breach combo Record 4-0

Round 5: vs Infect

Game 1: He had no idea what the deck was so he shocked/ city of brass down to 15 and i emrakul-vengeanced him a turn before i was going to die

Sideboard: +2 spellskite, +2 abrupt decay, -1 diabolic tutor, -2 thoughtseize, -1 izzet charm

Game 2: he killed me on turn 2 by double groundswell mutagenic growth on his turn one glistener elf

Game 3: I played a turn 2 spellskite which he didn't have an answer for and had a turn 4 griselbrand combo which he scooped to. Record 5-0

All in all i came in second place behind a birthing pod player that had a better game record than i did but i'm excited that i did this well! If anyone has any comments, concerns, questions i'd love to hear them. I'm always open to improve my knowledge of the game and become a better player. Thanks for reading!

capricorn
07-31-2014, 04:06 PM
So after a terrible performance at GP Boston, I came across this list thanks to Scotty Mac of "The Eh Team".

// Creatures (12)
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Sorceries (8)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Thoughtseize

// Instants (16)
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Lightning Axe
4 Lightning Bolt

// Artifacts (4)
4 Pentad Prism

// Lands (16)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine


// Sideboard (15)

3 Silence
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Not of this World
3 Pyroclasm
3 Duress

I started playing this build and have been impressed. Certain cards for certain reasons but fighting a Scavenging Ooze as often as I did, I can appreciate a deck with 8 maindeck answers.

Also, removal of the Blue has proved to be a big improvement and has justified the use of the Prisms for me again.

Anyway, this is the latest build I am playing. I will keep posted as events open up. So far, it has been absurd on trice. Silence against storm with Past in Flames on the stack and hitting back with Emrakul to take out the Pyromancer's Ascension has proved to be incredible.

What this build also allows that my previously played did not is an answer to a flashed in Pestermite , or the like, to tap down Emrakul, The Aeons Torn . The answer is Not of this world , which I used to like in Legacy as an answer to Karakas , here is also an answer to Path to Exile . Where I opted for Pact of Negation is the past to get the Goryo's Vengeance or Through the Breach to resolve, I can rely more on Duress and Silence now.

Anyway, this has been my most recent adaptation to the archetype.

The other cute thing I like, is that I can sit behind Marsh Flats , Godless Shrine and Swamp , play Thoughtseize , and have people assume I am on Black White tokens.

Acclimation
09-12-2014, 06:28 AM
With the allied fetches becoming Modern legal, this deck gets much better mana. YAY!

But that's not this post is about. I'm wondering if scry lands are worth our time.

Taking this manabase:

4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfur Falls

18 lands; 6 fetch, 3 basic, 3 shock, 3 check, 3 fast.

We want to keep at least 4 fetches and all of the shocks and basics, leaving us with 8 lands on the table to cut.

Let's run a quick cost/benefit analysis for each type of land:

Fastland (Blackcleave Cliffs)

Benefits:
Enters the battlefield untapped if we play it early

Costs:
Enters tapped if played as 4th land and on


Checklands (Catacomb/Dragonskull/Sulfur)

Benefits:
Plays nice with our fetches, shocks, and basics
Will usually enter untapped

Costs:
An opening hand with these as only lands or having mis-matched lands can lead to slow starts



Fetches (extra fetches)

Benefits:
Searches for the most relevant colors of land
Thins our deck
Can help to fight Blood Moon by getting basics
Enters untapped and can find lands that enter untapped

Costs:
Life loss can cause issues
Surgical/Needle can make life awkward


Scryland (Temple of Malice/Temple of Epiphany/Temple of Deceit)

Benefits:
Scry 1

Costs:
Enters tapped
Shuffling from fetches can undo scrys to the bottom

Common cons of these lands: vulnerable to Blood Moon and other nonbasic hate, can't be fetched by fetch lands. Most have an enter the battlefield tapped clause.

I feel like we could drop 2-4 lands for scrylands of equivalent color, specifically 1 fetch, 2-3 fast, and/or 1-2 check land. My reasoning is this- we have a deck that doesn't run as much card draw/filter/selection as we would like to, causing consistency issues. We rely on Faithless Looting, with usually 0-6 extra slots that can be devoted to Izzet Charm, Serum Visions, Slight of Hand, Spoils of the Vault, or Thirst for Knowledge. By adding 2-4 scrylands, we slow down the deck but gain extra filter for effectively free. This allows us to have either extra slots to devote to protection, whether it be Thoughtseize, Lightning Axe, or something else to slow down opposing decks, or get a maximum amount of filter for the deck. I propose cutting the Blackcleave Cliffs, since it provides the least utility, and t4 seems to be a common combo turn as is. I can also see cutting 1 fetch, since the shuffle can cause the bottom'ed cards to be reshuffled back into the deck, making the scry less valuable.

The question is, is can this deck afford to slow itself down an extra turn or two? I think that the extra filter is worth it, but I'm curious as to whether or not others agree with me.

Koby
09-12-2014, 12:20 PM
I do agree that with the full complement of Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions (less preferred, as it takes a turn to get the card you want), you are more punished with additional shuffle effects from fetchlands. With these cantrips in mind, it makes sense to play scrylands between 1-3 copies. I would be very hesitant to include 4 however. I think the sweet spot might be 2 scrylands, and likely B/R and U/R, one of each in place of the Dragonskull Summit and a Blackcleave Cliffs.

While Blackcleave Cliffs are atrocious after the 3rd land, they provide early game mana at no drawback. If we're at the point where playing the 4th or 5th land becomes important, it usually means we've faltered a bit. The more reliance on non-Basic land types they decks gets, the less useful the check lands become.

I will likely be playing this set of lands in my updated build:

3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 <flex>

And flex in most of my cases will be the 4th Blackcleave Cliff or Temple of Epiphany (U/R).

I am also considering modifying the build to run the full 4 Liliana of the Veil, as was featured by Gerry Thompson's article on SCG (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=29270) a few weeks ago:

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
1 Quicksilver Amulet

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize

6 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
2 Graven Cairns
4 Howltooth Hollow
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse

I don't necessarily agree with the mana base (heavy swamp), but it's an interesting idea to utilize Liliana + feed into the card disadvantage then use Howltooth Hollow to enable more cheats of fatties.

sumenismo
11-08-2014, 10:52 PM
What do you think about Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time in this deck? You think it'll provide consistency or is just too slow for the deck?

YamiJoey
11-09-2014, 07:20 AM
I think Dig is impossible. Similar to Ascension, you need your Spells to cost 1, not 2. After that, you only really need to not exile Griselbrands from your Graveyard, so Delving isn't going to hurt.

TheyCallMeTim
11-27-2014, 01:00 PM
I think Dig is impossible. Similar to Ascension, you need your Spells to cost 1, not 2. After that, you only really need to not exile Griselbrands from your Graveyard, so Delving isn't going to hurt.


I disagree. People were successfully running Ideas Unbound, Dig just does what that card wants to do but better. In hands that we don't have the early combo, DTT can make sure we get there on Turn 4, especially with the help of Gitaxian Probe or Manamorphose, as others have suggested using. Saying we want spells to cost 1 instead of 2 doesn't make sense when we have been utilizing Izzet Charm from the early days.

Koby
06-15-2015, 02:30 PM
I'm going to be re-writing the intro soon. There's a lot I want to explore, and I don't think the list in the opening post captures the archetype fully. It's one facet of a Modern engine that is highly adaptable.

Pitch-spell Vengeance/(Griselbrand) is my proposed name for the archetype.

TheyCallMeTim
06-15-2015, 03:51 PM
I'm going to be re-writing the intro soon. There's a lot I want to explore, and I don't think the list in the opening post captures the archetype fully. It's one facet of a Modern engine that is highly adaptable.

Pitch-spell Vengeance/(Griselbrand) is my proposed name for the archetype.


The changes made by Bob Huang and Zach Jesse are certainly interesting. I want to propose Lightning Storm over Borborygmos for discussion. It's significantly cheaper to cast during the combo phase, which I feel is more relevant than the few downsides.

Further, I'd also like to talk about my own take on the deck utilizing Torrent of Souls in place of Through the Breach. This allows a synergistic approach to reanimation, avoiding the clunky discards that occur with Through the Breach. Of course, being a sorcery, that means I can no longer run Emrakul (which many people have noted is a poor Plan B anyway). For this reason I chose Jin-Gitaxias as my Griselbrand 5-8. As a Goryo's Vengenace target in the opponent's end step it's a huge blowout, often turning on Plan A for the following turn. Anyway, here's my current list:

4 Griselbrand
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Izzet Charm

4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Torrent of Souls

3 Pentad Prism

1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave

I'm currently testing sideboards including Gifts Ungiven packages.

Valtrix
06-16-2015, 03:21 AM
The changes made by Bob Huang and Zach Jesse are certainly interesting. I want to propose Lightning Storm over Borborygmos for discussion. It's significantly cheaper to cast during the combo phase, which I feel is more relevant than the few downsides.

You want boryborygmos and it's not even close. First off, he pitches to nourishing shoal which is huge. Secondly, it gives you more things to put into play with goryo's and through the breach. Sometimes you get hands with multiple get into play effects and a Bory. I won a games in testing by going T4 Through the Breach -> Bory, T5 Goryo's Bory. Third, and most important: Getting Bory into play is trivial when you have Griselbrand out, which means there is no reason to run lightning storm. Two spirit guides give you the chance to splice a desperate ritual onto a nourishing shoal, then you can cast the desperate ritual to get four red, then you splice through the breach onto another nourishing shoal.

Been testing out the nourishing shoal version and it's extremely powerful, and shoal just by itself can actually be hugely powerful by buying you turns if you're trying to find that last piece to combo off.

I don't think Torrent of Souls is where you want to be. Through the Breach being instant speed is just so much better. You also really want ways to win outside of the GY since putting all your eggs into one basket can be a bad plan if they bring in any kind of GY hate. Jin-Gitaxias is a very bad choice right now given that all the red decks are playing Rending Volley to deal with twin, or decks have white and are already playing path to exile. In fact, the nourishing shoal version is in large part so powerful because it can do everything at instant speed. In particular splicing is very real for the deck, and all the instant shenanigans lets the deck stomp on blue decks pretty hard by comboing at their EOT and on their own turn. Don't forget shoal is a ritual for through the breach.

For reference, according to the deck tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/goryos_vengeance_with_bob_huan.html) Bob Huang was 25-0 in games against non-infect decks on the day (and lost two rounds to infect), and another nourishing shoal deck made the top 8. The version is extremely powerful and I think people will have to watch out for in the weeks to come.

TheyCallMeTim
06-16-2015, 10:35 AM
I don't think Torrent of Souls is where you want to be. Through the Breach being instant speed is just so much better. You also really want ways to win outside of the GY since putting all your eggs into one basket can be a bad plan if they bring in any kind of GY hate. Jin-Gitaxias is a very bad choice right now given that all the red decks are playing Rending Volley to deal with twin, or decks have white and are already playing path to exile.

All good points, I'm just actively trying to address the deck's weaknesses. Namely the clunky route to Plan A and its Plan B. Firstly, how often have you found it incredibly frustrating that you couldn't discard a fatty in the early game while searching for either Goryo's or Breach? The split strategy might be useful against hate but it seems from my experience that the lack of synergy is more relevant. At least Noxious Revival partially addresses this. Secondly, all too often I had dumped my hand to make an Emrakrul and lost the game anyway. The Worldspine Wurm is definitely a better card for avoiding that but unfortunately it only works with 1 half of the combo (not Legendary). Obviously it's the best card at the moment to run with Nourishing Shoal, otherwise I would say that it's just a compromise relative to Emrakul (trading more consistent 15 damage for 30ish damage half of the time). Ideally the extra life mitigates that.

Overall, the GP list is a very strong development for the deck but it clearly has issues. It's only my aim to have a logical discussion about the card selection. I have been piloting this deck from its infancy (including my own brews before the introduction of Fury of the Horde) and have seen it take multiple leaps in the right direction. If the community feels the Huang list is the best 58-60, so be it. We'll have to wait until WotC inadvertently prints better cards for us. But that won't stop me from looking for new things to test.

PS: Last night I finished 3-1 with my list in a local. Lost to an Abzan Company deck that got really lucky hitting Anafenza, the Foremost. Round 4 against Burn I won game 1 via Jin-Git and game 3 with Griz. Hadn't seen any Rending Volley but I don't mind if he wants to board a card that only hits my Plan B. This is merely anecdotal, certainly the Charlotte GP results are more meaningful. Which is precisely why I picked up a bunch of Worldspine Wurms with my prize money! ;)

Kathal
06-17-2015, 06:51 AM
All good points, I'm just actively trying to address the deck's weaknesses. Namely the clunky route to Plan A and its Plan B. Firstly, how often have you found it incredibly frustrating that you couldn't discard a fatty in the early game while searching for either Goryo's or Breach? The split strategy might be useful against hate but it seems from my experience that the lack of synergy is more relevant. At least Noxious Revival partially addresses this. Secondly, all too often I had dumped my hand to make an Emrakrul and lost the game anyway. The Worldspine Wurm is definitely a better card for avoiding that but unfortunately it only works with 1 half of the combo (not Legendary). Obviously it's the best card at the moment to run with Nourishing Shoal, otherwise I would say that it's just a compromise relative to Emrakul (trading more consistent 15 damage for 30ish damage half of the time). Ideally the extra life mitigates that.

Overall, the GP list is a very strong development for the deck but it clearly has issues. It's only my aim to have a logical discussion about the card selection. I have been piloting this deck from its infancy (including my own brews before the introduction of Fury of the Horde) and have seen it take multiple leaps in the right direction. If the community feels the Huang list is the best 58-60, so be it. We'll have to wait until WotC inadvertently prints better cards for us. But that won't stop me from looking for new things to test.

PS: Last night I finished 3-1 with my list in a local. Lost to an Abzan Company deck that got really lucky hitting Anafenza, the Foremost. Round 4 against Burn I won game 1 via Jin-Git and game 3 with Griz. Hadn't seen any Rending Volley but I don't mind if he wants to board a card that only hits my Plan B. This is merely anecdotal, certainly the Charlotte GP results are more meaningful. Which is precisely why I picked up a bunch of Worldspine Wurms with my prize money! ;)

As somebody who plays some form of Griselbanned/Goryo's Vengeance/Instant Reanimator since last year August and actively developed the Shoal version and helped to make it public, I want to say some things:

First, the reason why the Shoal version is so strong is, that you have the option of winning with Instant speed. This is huge in a format, where such a thing "shouldn't" exist. Most opponents feel absolutely save to tap out at your endstep (especially Twin players) just do die in response on whatever they wanted to do. I win like 60% of my games with Instant speed, simply because I have to do it (opponent is tapped out, Path is targeting Griselbrand, opponent combos off/threads to kill you). Sure, reanimating Griselbrand should be most of the time enough, but by taking the instant speed kill option away your Twin match-up is horrible ("nice Griselbrand you have there, it would be a shame if something would happen to it (aka Pestermite/Exarch/Path)")

The thing with the "split strategy" saved my ass so many times. Of course it feels awkward when you pitched a Griselbrand and then you are drawing a Through the Breach, but being able to play around Graveyard hate (Relics and Oozes are quite common in the format) is huge. Furthermore, since the uprising in Graveyard decks (like this one) or in general decks which rely on the graveyard (Grixis Control/Delver) you can expect more graveyard hate (especially Nihil Spellbomb). So you need at least post board a Plan B and I don't want to play crappy cards like Torrent of Souls main deck.

The reason, why we are running Worldspine Wurm is simply because of Shoal, since it is the most useful creature for this specific purpose (gaining 11 life and killing the opponent in 1 max 2 swings). The good thing is, that he leaves the tokens, which should be the biggest creatures on the battlefield, which have trample too. Furthermore, his costs are nearly perfect (something like 12 or 13 would have even been better), since it allows you to draw 28 cards when you are at 18 with only 1 Shoal. Everything below is meh at best. And yeah, I'm sad that I can't play with Emrakuls, but you simply don't need them/don't have the space for them (you could run a 1off MD with Time of Need as tutor).

The splicing is HUGE in this deck. Being able to play around Counters is awesome, also being able to generate a ton of mana is also nice (went from 0 floating to 15R once to be able to pay for the Pacts (Hive Mind from my opp)). I can't say how often I just won by splicing Rituals/Goryo's/TTB on Shoals/Ritual to be able to play around something.

Furthermore, Borbor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lightning Storm because a) he can be pitched to Shoal when you need the life/you are bricking otherwise b) is a creature which can be TTB/Goryo's AND has a huge trample body which can win games by its own (I won several games where I hardcasted Borbor). Also, if Lightning Storm gets discarded, you don't have a way to combo off with instant speed (exception is a second one or you are running Noxious Revival), where you can pitch Borbor to Looting without a problem.

From its playstile you can compare it with Tin Fins, since when we have an active Griselbrand, we win like 80% of the games immediately (in some we brick, or we want to play around something), but it still should be enough to kill the opponent next turn. It feels like Tin Fins when you are playing it and you can also make some awesome tricks.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: Either way, try Temple of Malice as a 4 off. It provides you with another Turn 1 play and the scry is surprisingly relevant. I was sceptic first, but now I love them.

TheyCallMeTim
06-17-2015, 10:50 AM
As somebody who plays some form of Griselbanned/Goryo's Vengeance/Instant Reanimator since last year August and actively developed the Shoal version and helped to make it public, I want to say some things:

...Also, if Lightning Storm gets discarded, you don't have a way to combo off with instant speed (exception is a second one or you are running Noxious Revival), where you can pitch Borbor to Looting without a problem.

PS: Either way, try Temple of Malice as a 4 off. It provides you with another Turn 1 play and the scry is surprisingly relevant. I was sceptic first, but now I love them.

Thank you for the constructive points. I nearly have the Shoal version completely assembled now and will begin testing. I do want to point out though, in addition to the other issues, that this current build can't discard Borg at instant speed. Whereas I would run 2x Lightning Storm plus the aforementioned Revival. Nonetheless, you guys with actual practical experience with this build are most likely correct and I will find out exactly how relevant Borg is over Lighting Storm.

Ironically, I was also sceptical of the scry lands but will try them too.

Valtrix
06-17-2015, 12:21 PM
You don't need to discard Bory at instant speed. If you're comboing off with Griselbrand at instant speed you just use Through the Breach to get Bory into play, then use him to finish up. Getting enough mana when you have basically your whole deck is pretty trivial.

The scry lands are great. They're quite easy to fit into your spell sequence (turn three scry land + night's whisper for example) and give the deck that little extra push in consistency it needs. Often you can you play them without disrupting the spell sequencing you were planning anyway, and even in cases where it does put you back you don't need to develop a board presence like other decks because when you go off you'll probably just win on the spot.

Griselpuff
06-17-2015, 04:26 PM
Minor correction:

I'm 27-4 in sanctioned matches with 3 losses to Infect and 1 to Abzan Company. I was something like 25-0 vs. non-infect decks at the point of the video.

Deck is bonkers. Only reason it might not get banned would be because people start playing the right hate cards (Teeg, Needle, Surgical, Deflecting Palm and Suppression Field).

TheyCallMeTim
06-18-2015, 12:05 AM
Deck is bonkers. Only reason it might not get banned would be because people start playing the right hate cards (Teeg, Needle, Surgical, Deflecting Palm and Suppression Field).

Agreed. I ran your 60 in a local tonight and though I only went 2-2 (blame lack of piloting experience and running into turn 2 RIP in back to back games) the deck is obviously strong. The question I have is whether you think it can survive the next banning announcement? I would like to get some more time playing the deck before losing the $400+ dollars invested. Hopefully WotC lets the format correct itself rather than putting the hammer down, which, admittedly, I highly doubt...

Valtrix
06-18-2015, 01:56 AM
My concern is that you mentioned "the right hate," but even for the list you mentioned none of that hate completely stops the deck. If somebody needles griselbrand, you can through the breach wurm into play and be fine. Similarly with suppression field. Deflecting palm can help stop an attack, but does nothing against the instant speed win--Bory can just discard lands again in response to the palm cast. Graveyard hate only attacks half of the deck, as breach is a very real option. Discard into surgical is nice, but not a surefire way to win either (can't hit more than half the fatties, wurm doesn't even hit the yard). Blue decks are also likely to struggle against an instant speed win combo as EOT go for combo -> combo is very powerful, and in general the counterspells in Modern are not fantastic so, especially post board, you can probably overwhelm them (or just use Boseiju).

I'm just not seeing how decks will be able to, in general, pressure this deck fast enough before just losing, especially since the hate they bring might not even be useful against the hand you've drawn to combo off. We'll see how things shape up in the future, but after researching the deck more I fully expect it to be a major force in modern in the time to come. (Potentially ban-worthy, but I don't like to jump to conclusions.)

And while Infect might be a terrible matchup for the deck, but if that's the case a simple splash for Melira, Sylvok Outcast might be enough to shore up that matchup pretty handily.

Alas, if only we had Containment Priest for modern! Would be pretty great vs. the Collected Company and Chord decks too.

Kathal
06-18-2015, 04:08 AM
My concern is that you mentioned "the right hate," but even for the list you mentioned none of that hate completely stops the deck. If somebody needles griselbrand, you can through the breach wurm into play and be fine. Similarly with suppression field. Deflecting palm can help stop an attack, but does nothing against the instant speed win--Bory can just discard lands again in response to the palm cast. Graveyard hate only attacks half of the deck, as breach is a very real option. Discard into surgical is nice, but not a surefire way to win either (can't hit more than half the fatties, wurm doesn't even hit the yard). Blue decks are also likely to struggle against an instant speed win combo as EOT go for combo -> combo is very powerful, and in general the counterspells in Modern are not fantastic so, especially post board, you can probably overwhelm them (or just use Boseiju).

I'm just not seeing how decks will be able to, in general, pressure this deck fast enough before just losing, especially since the hate they bring might not even be useful against the hand you've drawn to combo off. We'll see how things shape up in the future, but after researching the deck more I fully expect it to be a major force in modern in the time to come. (Potentially ban-worthy, but I don't like to jump to conclusions.)

And while Infect might be a terrible matchup for the deck, but if that's the case a simple splash for Melira, Sylvok Outcast might be enough to shore up that matchup pretty handily.

Alas, if only we had Containment Priest for modern! Would be pretty great vs. the Collected Company and Chord decks too.

Just a small correction, Wurm does hit the Graveyard, it's shuffle back is a trigger and not a replacement effect. This is pretty important since otherwise he wouldn't generate any tokens.

The thing is (at least for me), that I accepted that Infect is just a bad match-up and just skipped the SB hate. I don't want to play 4 cards in my SB which only helps against Infect (Melira), when I want Moons, Decays (in the Jund version), Lightning Axes (in the straight BR), Bosejiu and co. If I want something which helps against Infect and also has some use in other match-ups, I would run Chalice (as Pomegrant does atm). It helps also against Burn and some other match-ups (ADN Combo, Amulet Bloom (but you want Moon there instead). The nice thing is, that the Infect metagame share is declining since February, which helped to come to this decision.

One of the hardest match-up, beside Infect and Affinity, is RUG Delver with Shoals. They have a fast clock and free counter spells + a 1 mana Negate in Stubborn Denial. Most other match-ups have either a "fast" hand, or interaction where we either just can race or we can grind through it. Our ace here is Bosejiu, which enables TTB Wurms, which is more than enough against that deck. Griselbrand is most of the times not enough, since they can counter the Shoals (at least the first one), so we need to hit at least 2 Shoals/Wurms in around 14 draws (with an attack, I just assumed for now, that we went into the combo on Turn 3).

A deck like GW Hatebears is surprisingly a difficult match-up, since they have interaction with Thalia, Tegg and co and have a reasonable fast clock (compared to BGx/Grixis). Furthermore, they can play Rest in Peace in their SBs, which is huge in the current meta ("everyone" has decide to play with those new graveyard based cards (from Command to the Delve stuff), or want to run Snapcaster, Oozes and/or Goyf in their decks, and so they can't play something like RIP, since they also relay on the graveyard). But than again, we can just kill them on turn 2, to play "around" those cards.

Oh, and all who are saying, that Soul Sister is a rather difficult match-up for the deck, I have to decline here. The plan here isn't to Grisel into Borbor kill them, but to TTB several Wurms into play. You just have to grind through their lifegain this way. Ofc, a reanimated Borbor to get rid of all creatures is nice, but not necessary.

The deck is good, but not ban worthy, the same was with Amulet Bloom. For myself, I would run this piece in Copenhagen and if there would be another high end finish (very likely) I would switch deck for GP Singapore (cause the metagame needs around 1-2 weeks to "adjust" to something new, Modern is much faster than Legacy in adjusting to a new threat).

Greetings,
Kathal

TheyCallMeTim
06-23-2015, 10:46 AM
What does the group think about Bob's sideboard? Is this the best 15 for that list?

4 Blood Moon
1 Lightning Axe
3 Pact of Negation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shatterstorm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Valtrix
06-23-2015, 11:09 AM
I don't understand the pact of negations. Given that the deck can almost never pay for them (not going to count on manamorphose), I can imagine that they are only useful against counterspells. However, if this is the case, why not just play more Boseiju? (Probably not 4, but at least more than 1.)

TheyCallMeTim
06-25-2015, 09:33 AM
I don't understand the pact of negations. Given that the deck can almost never pay for them (not going to count on manamorphose), I can imagine that they are only useful against counterspells. However, if this is the case, why not just play more Boseiju? (Probably not 4, but at least more than 1.)

You can also win on the upkeep with the trigger on the stack...