[DTB] UG Survival / Vengevine (formerly UG Madness)

[Garvman]

Vengevival

Vengevival is a aggro/combo deck that runs the potent combo of Survival of the Fittest with Vengevine and Basking Rootwalla (and sometimes Memnite or Shield Sphere* for a free casting cost creature) along with some other creatures that can either interact with Vengevine or are simply good at beating face. The combo works as follows:

1. Cast Survival of the Fittest. (1G)

2. Place as many Vengevines as fast as possible into the graveyard through the use of Survival of the Fittest. (GGGG)

3. Use Survival of the Fittest to cast the madness cost of 2 Basking Rootwallas or cast the madness cost of 1 Basking Rootwalla and a 0 casting cost creature (Memnite or Shield Sphere* for example). (GG or G).

Total mana cost for 4 attacking Vengevines: 1GGGGGGG or 1GGGGGG*.

*Note: 0 CMC artifact creatures are used to counter the effects of Ethersworn Canonist


Depending on the color version, various amounts of disruption is ran to slow the opponent down or protect the combo like Force of Will for the UGx variants or Thoughtseize for the BGx variants. UGx versions also like to run Wonder to ensure that Vengevine damage connects unhindered. WGx variants tend to run larger creatures like Knight of the Reliquary to supplement the aggro plan. Other variations of Vengevial run the Necrotic Ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, and Triskelion combo, which turns Ooze into a Triskelion that can constantly shoot the opponent. Some Vengevival decks like to run Lion's Eye Diamond as another discard outlet and mana source or run Wild Mongrel or Aquamoeba to quickly discard Veggies and rootwallas for a quick veggie recursion.

Regardless, the core of the deck is Vengevine and Survival of the Fittest along with Basking Rootwalla to enable Vengevine.



Some of the other interactions that Vengevine has:

#1
Vengevine
Basking Rootwalla
Arrogant Wurm
Lion's Eye Diamond


Execution: Cast the Diamond, activate it, discard all Veggies and other creatures, then pay the madness cost of the Wurm and the lizard.


#2
Wild Mongrel OR Aquamoeba
+
Vengevine
Basking Rootwalla


Execution: Cast either the mongrel or the water beast first. Then, on the same turn, discard any number of vengevines you have, then discard the lizard.


#3
Trinket Mage
+
Memnite OR Shield Sphere
+
Vengevine in the graveyard.

Execution: Simply cast Trinket Mage and fetch a 0 CMC artifact creature and cast it. This will revive any Vengevines and is a great way to counter Ethersworn Canonist.



#4
Fauna Shaman
+
Quirion Ranger OR Scryb Ranger

Execution: The combination of either ranger plus the shaman creates a weaker version of Survival of the Fittest: use the ranger to untap the shaman for more ways to discard Vengevines into the graveyard. The number of rangers and shaman you have on the battlefield is going to be the number of Survival activations you can do in a turn.



This is an example of a UGw Vengevial deck that won a recent SCG Legacy event:

Link: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35558

Maindeck

1 Memnite
3 Basking Rootwalla
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Vengevine
1 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Wild Mongrel
1 Wonder

4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath


Sideboard

1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Natural Order

[Peter_Rotten]

The former discussion is here (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2650). Please read it before posting here.

[Happy Gilmore]

YES!!! Finally UG Madness is in the LMF! This has been a long time in coming.

Over Thanksgiving Weekend I went home and was able to play a tournament at the Lucky Frog for Legacy. I was very disapointed to find that everyone, well almost everyone was down in Richmond or something playing for a Black Lotus. The attendance was only 13 players :( . I played UG Madness to third, which I admit, is nothing to brag about. However I was able to face many of the decks harder matchups, mainly Goblin sligh(there were three of them). It was a 6 round tournament and the only reason this happened is because someone thought it would be a good idea to make T8 instead of T4 :angry: . My record was 4:2:0 over all. Loosing to a very interesting version of dump truck, and Rav Affinity.

I basically played the list mentioned above(-1 Naturalize +1 Deep) but had a slightly different SB:

2 Daze
2 Truth
2 Ground Seal
1 Masticore
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
3 Chill
3 Stifle
1 Naturalize

The sword was Mainly useless but the Masticore raped all. I went 3:0 against the Goblin Sligh decks I faced. Two decks, one I faced twice. First game they smashed face but second and third I came back for the win(this was true each time). Strangely every second game I won with the Masticore, go figure.

I got knocked out if the semi-finals by Affinity.

After some more playtesting I began to dislike the bouncers more and more. But I still felt that these spots needed to be filled with a creature. From the 5 meta spots in garv's list:

2 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Naturalize

I came up with this:
2 Nimble Mongoose
3 Naturalize

I was greatly suprized by their efficiency. So far they have performed superbly.

My current SB:
2 Daze
1 Masticore
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Energy Flux or B2B (depending on meta)
3 Stifle
3 Chill
1 Deep Analysis
2 Ground Seal

Masticore may come out, but since I keep seeing "him" so much I figure what the hell. He is doing his job.

Happy Gilmore

[Eclipt1c]

NO!

NO!

Nimble Mongoose does not belong in the deck whatsoever. Waterfront Bouncer is AMAZING. So amaing in fact, that I think I'm going up to 3 in the main deck in place of a Truth. Bouncers provide a lock agaisnt aggro decks. Also, Bouncer is an outlet, Mongoose is not. Mongoose does NOTHING but beat, whereas every other card in the deck helps the Madness mechanic with the sole exceptions of Brainstorm.
Again:

NO!

[ryan1989]

NO!

NO!

Nimble Mongoose does not belong in the deck whatsoever. Waterfront Bouncer is AMAZING. So amaing in fact, that I think I'm going up to 3 in the main deck in place of a Truth. Bouncers provide a lock agaisnt aggro decks. Also, Bouncer is an outlet, Mongoose is not. Mongoose does NOTHING but beat, whereas every other card in the deck helps the Madness mechanic with the sole exceptions of Brainstorm.
Again:

NO!
Quoted for truth.

I agree with ecplitic, Waterfront Bouncer is a superb creature in madness. It functions as an outlet(albeit a slow one), creature removal and an out against the spore frog lock(this is actually really important). The only downside to bouncer is that he is slow compared to the rest of the deck and his activation cost partially negates the madness mechanic. i also agree that Nimble Mongoose has no place in madness. Madness actually takes quite a while to get threshold making nimble mongoose a bad early game creature in comparison to Basking Rootwalla.

[Happy Gilmore]

Posted: Dec. 05 2004,1:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (Eclipt1c @ Dec. 05 2004,12:04)
NO!

NO!

Nimble Mongoose does not belong in the deck whatsoever. Waterfront Bouncer is AMAZING. So amaing in fact, that I think I'm going up to 3 in the main deck in place of a Truth. Bouncers provide a lock agaisnt aggro decks. Also, Bouncer is an outlet, Mongoose is not. Mongoose does NOTHING but beat, whereas every other card in the deck helps the Madness mechanic with the sole exceptions of Brainstorm.
Again:

NO!

Quoted for truth.

I agree with ecplitic, Waterfront Bouncer is a superb creature in madness. It functions as an outlet(albeit a bad one), creature removal and an out against the spore frog lock(this is actually really important). The only downside to bouncer is that he is painfully slow compared to the rest of the deck and his activation cost partially negates the madness mechanic. i also agree that Nimble Mongoose has no place in madness. Madness actually takes quite a while to get threshold making nimble mongoose a bad early game creature in comparison to Basking Rootwalla.


I think maybe I jumped the gun on this one. What I found is that it competes too much with the other first turn plays. And as you guys said it takes a while to get to threshold.

My bad, I don't think I would have even considered him if I hadn't faced those three goblin sligh decks on thanksgiving. As far as having three Waterfront Bouncers....Bad Bad idea, they really are a suboptimal madness outlet. I am just going back to the original list of 2 Boucer 3 Naturalize, with one more in the board.

[Eclipt1c]

As far as having three Waterfront Bouncers....Bad Bad idea, they really are a suboptimal madness outlet.

I don't use them as an agressive madness outlet. I use them to bog down their creatures while I beat with a couple flying Wurms. I always feel like I want one, and since they're so vulnerable, and better than Echoing Truth, I've decided to include a third. Naturalize just isn't that great here, and to be honest, I haven't been really pleased with Echoing Truth, so I may go back to Stifle or something.

[ryan1989]

As far as having three Waterfront Bouncers....Bad Bad idea, they really are a suboptimal madness outlet.

I don't use them as an agressive madness outlet. I use them to bog down their creatures while I beat with a couple flying Wurms. I always feel like I want one, and since they're so vulnerable, and better than Echoing Truth, I've decided to include a third. Naturalize just isn't that great here, and to be honest, I haven't been really pleased with Echoing Truth, so I may go back to Stifle or something.
I used to be a huge advocate of Stifle in Madness, but through hours of testing it has come to my attention that Naturalize is amazing in madness. With the exception of Pernicious Deed and saclands Naturalize is a far more effective answer to madness's biggest fears such as Isochron Scepter, Veldaken Shackles, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds and randomness like Moat.

[Eclipt1c]

I think the Welder Survival matchup needs to be looked at, as the deck consistently beats Madness. The deck has Triskelion, Spore Frog, Sharpshooter, Witness, Genesis, Pentavus and post sideboard it has Duplicant and FTK. I was play testing with CavernNinja and it seemed that I could beat him the majority of the time pre-sideboard, but after he sided in Spore Frog and the others in (Spore Frog was not maindecked at the time, but now is) he beat me consistently. The deck just has too many bombs to counter and can weld in a Mindslaver, Phyrexian Colossus, Pentavus, Triskelion, or a Duplicant after stalling with Frog lock and just beat the hell out of Madness.

Naturalize doesn't really do much because of Genesis and the fact that he can just start hardcasting the cards via Rofellos.

Suggestions?

[Garvman]

This is where the SB stifles come in handy. As I pointed out when I discussed the survival matchup, when you lose to the deck, you lose because of spore frog. If it is prevelant in your meta maybe add some ground seals SB, or just do what I do, and side in 3x stifle, 3x echoing truth and the 4th naturalize... In this case I would probably remove a wonder, 2 D.A, a rootwalla, an aquamoeba, and 2x whatever to side all of that in. This is a tough matchup for you, but if you deal with the stupid frog, you should be ok... mindslaver hurts too, though, especially if you have a madness outlet on the board.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think the Welder Survival matchup needs to be looked at, as the deck consistently beats Madness. The deck has Triskelion, Spore Frog, Sharpshooter, Witness, Genesis, Pentavus and post sideboard it has Duplicant and FTK. I was play testing with CavernNinja and it seemed that I could beat him the majority of the time pre-sideboard, but after he sided in Spore Frog and the others in (Spore Frog was not maindecked at the time, but now is) he beat me consistently. The deck just has too many bombs to counter and can weld in a Mindslaver, Phyrexian Colossus, Pentavus, Triskelion, or a Duplicant after stalling with Frog lock and just beat the hell out of Madness.

Naturalize doesn't really do much because of Genesis and the fact that he can just start hardcasting the cards via Rofellos.

Suggestions?
Which is why Ground Seal is so rediculously good. It helps in three of your hardest matchups: RG Survival, ATS, and Welder Survival. With 3 Naturalize, 3 Stifle, 2 Ground Seal and a hand full of counterspells where is your problem?

Either way I think you will find that Ground Seal is a great solution. I would definitly take them over Echoing truth in the SB. Replacing two with Ground Seals, and the other with a third bouncer.

I would like to keep Echoing Truth in the board atleast as 2 off, but I can't find room. What could be cut?


I don't use them as an agressive madness outlet. I use them to bog down their creatures while I beat with a couple flying Wurms.

Seams to me that you find the bounce affect to be more useful than its main purpose, which it to get your madness creatures on the board. What the heck is a non agressive madness outlet anyway?



Naturalize just isn't that great here, and to be honest, I haven't been really pleased with Echoing Truth, so I may go back to Stifle or something.


As said before naturalize is amazing mainboard. And I am suprized that you don't run stifles in the board. What are you running in their spot?

Note: curious, not accusing or anything


I used to be a huge advocate of Stifle in Madness, but through hours of testing it has come to my attention that Naturalize is amazing in madness. With the exception of Pernicious Deed and saclands Naturalize is a far more effective answer to madness's biggest fears such as Isochron Scepter, Veldaken Shackles, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds and randomness like Moat.



And Humility, dont forget Humility. :angry:

[CavernNinja]

From my point of view I really don't fear Ground Seal much, if anything Crypt is more threatening because it will actually get rid of my graveyard instead of just making me stumble a bit to find a Zealot or Monkey. The other thing that Ground Seal really doesn't do is shut off Squee and Anger, without Anger the deck is much more vulnerable and thus Crypt is a much better solution to the graveyard problem.

[Peter_Rotten]

Two posts deleted. Keep discussion focused on UG Madness and not other decks.

[Eclipt1c]

Which is why Ground Seal is so rediculously good. It helps in three of your hardest matchups: RG Survival, ATS, and Welder Survival. With 3 Naturalize, 3 Stifle, 2 Ground Seal and a hand full of counterspells where is your problem?

Ground Seal is in no way rediculously good in Madness, but I'll get to that in a minute. RG I consider to be the best of the best of the Survival matchups, Welder just has too many must counter bombs that won't be attacking, and ATS has Walls.


Seams to me that you find the bounce affect to be more useful than its main purpose, which it to get your madness creatures on the board. What the heck is a non agressive madness outlet anyway?

It "seams" to me that you are greatly underestimating the bounce "affect" yourself. As I said, it can single-handedly lock down aggro while you beat with one or two flying Wurms. Also, Bouncer's main purpose is NOT to put Madness creatures on the board, because it's not very effective at that, it's no better at Madness-ing out creatures than Survival is. Also, a non-aggressive Madness outlet would be a control outlet obviously.


As said before naturalize is amazing mainboard. And I am suprized that you don't run stifles in the board. What are you running in their spot?

My mistake here that I didn't specify. I do run Stifles sideboard. I'll be trying 2 Naturalizes "mainboard" shortly, though I'm not completely sure on their effectiveness in my meta.

Now, to Ground Seal. I don't like Ground Seal at all in Madness. It costs 2 mana, which is relatively high for what it actually accomplishes. On turn two I'd rather be casting an outlet. Also, as Ninja said, Ground Seal doesn't stop Anger or Squee, which are integral to Survival's abuse. Crypt is the better choice in this case, but perhaps Phyrexian Furnace is better in this case. Beyond the Survival matchup; however, Crypt still seems better than Ground Seal in the mirror. Ground Seal does jack agaisnt Wonder and Deep Analysis. Phyrexian Furnace will be getting some testing, but its slow speed worries me already about its usefulness.

[superfly]

Has anyone ever considerd Attunement in U/G Madness? Seems likes an obvious choice to me. It works sort of like a Bazzar of Bagdad. It is of course not as good , because you have to re-cast it. Just a thought.

[CavernNinja]

Nobody has played Bazaar in the old version of UG, so why would we play the budget version?

Attunement is not so hot when you are trying to play the control deck, the only turn you ever want to tap out is turn 2 to play a madness outlet, so after that the only time you would want to play Attunement is turn 4 or 5 which just seems too late to be effective, especially since you aren't using it until the next turn. As a madness outlet I have found Attunement to be subpar, and as a drawing engine it is really only good if you really need to dig for multiple turns. Attunement's lack of card advantage in the deck can also spell trouble, remember this is a control deck.

[Eclipt1c]

Has anyone ever considerd Attunement in U/G Madness? Seems likes an obvious choice to me. It works sort of like a Bazzar of Bagdad. It is of course not as good , because you have to re-cast it. Just a thought.
I've tested it before, and it's like what Ninja said. It's too cumbersome and expensive. Madness does not want any card that FORCES you to discard a card, it wants to discard what cards it wants to at all times. Cards like Attunement and Careful Study can eliminate the card advantage that Madness decks try to abuse.

Remember there are only 12 cards that have Madness in the deck. Only 4 of those 12 are free, cards like this are bad in Madness because it forces you to empty part of you hand, this means dumping cards because you didn't draw a Madness card, or just don't want to play one, or you have to drop a Madness creature simply because you can't afford the card disadvantage. Attunement is better than Careful Study in the fact that it's instant speed. But is infintely worse in the fact that it's guaranteed card disadvantage. If Careful Study was an instant it might be played because you could get some card advantage off of it and use it when you want, and at worst it'd be card parity.

As far as I see it, no card that forces the player to discard a card should be used in Madness (Attunement, Bazaar, Careful Study, Masticore, etc.).

[BoTS]

With the increase in aggro decks, and more importantly, Survival decks, is Gilded Drake worth considering in the maindeck or sideboard? My build was running one maindeck Drake with two in the sideboard to deal with annoying creatures in the format like Warchiefs and Tradewinds and such, and they worked with moderate success. I also ran two main deck Waterfront Bouncers, which served a similar purpose as the Drakes and had inherent synergy with them.

[Eclipt1c]

That seems rather slow and cumbersome. Also, it has inherent disynergy with Wonder by giving them a flying blocker. But these are all just first impressions, and maybe some testing is warranted.

[Lego]

It seems to me that the idea here is to take the basic T1 deck, remove Recall, Timewalk, and the artifact mana, and replace them with something (Oh yeah, and take out that random 1-of Gush). Obviously the metagame is a little bit different, but this deck should remain essentially the same in my opinion. It has to get a little more land heavy and doesn't have to run Null Rod anymore, but it can fit Waterfront Bouncers or can afford to run a couple of Dazes.

Personally, I would never play less than 2 Wonders. Without Intuition, you can't expect to get them enough, and Intuition isn't good enough without Roar, and Roar is too slow (lots of Ands there).

As for the little Goose that could, he only ever went in the deck when it was playing Upheaval so it could drop two 3/3 beaters after the 'heav for a quick win.

On a sidenote, whatever happened to G/W Madness? I guess it only really played in the Standard environment, but do you think it could survive in the T1.5 environment? It's just so fun to phase out a Brushhopper before a big wrath. If you were to splash white, is he worth seeing play? A 3/4 is a clock to be reckoned with...

Also, in Extended I played around with Rancor a little. It's nice to have a Trampling Mongrel every now and then. That being said, does Berserk have a place in this deck? I know these changes would be switching the deck more towards aggro, but would that be a horrible thing? I'm honestly not sure.

[Happy Gilmore]

It seems to me that the idea here is to take the basic T1 deck, remove Recall, Timewalk, and the artifact mana, and replace them with something (Oh yeah, and take out that random 1-of Gush). Obviously the metagame is a little bit different, but this deck should remain essentially the same in my opinion. It has to get a little more land heavy and doesn't have to run Null Rod anymore, but it can fit Waterfront Bouncers or can afford to run a couple of Dazes.

Personally, I would never play less than 2 Wonders. Without Intuition, you can't expect to get them enough, and Intuition isn't good enough without Roar, and Roar is too slow (lots of Ands there).

As for the little Goose that could, he only ever went in the deck when it was playing Upheaval so it could drop two 3/3 beaters after the 'heav for a quick win.

On a sidenote, whatever happened to G/W Madness? I guess it only really played in the Standard environment, but do you think it could survive in the T1.5 environment? It's just so fun to phase out a Brushhopper before a big wrath. If you were to splash white, is he worth seeing play? A 3/4 is a clock to be reckoned with...

Also, in Extended I played around with Rancor a little. It's nice to have a Trampling Mongrel every now and then. That being said, does Berserk have a place in this deck? I know these changes would be switching the deck more towards aggro, but would that be a horrible thing? I'm honestly not sure.
Contrary to popular belief the 1.5 build (i.e. Legacy) has no correlation between the other formats, it revolves around a completely different strategy. The type 1 build is an adaptation of the 1.5 build not the other way around. And, oh yeah, THERE IS NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING RANDOM IN THIS DECKLIST! Every single spot in the deck has a purpose and was discussed to death. If you look in the previous threads you will find answers to each of your inquiries regarding the current list and how it developed.

In response to your side note, GW Madness or GW beats is no were nearly as consistent as UG, has no card draw, and has no counters. The presence of Survival based decks make the majority of other agro based decks obsolete. Which brings me to my next point, UG madness is not an agro based strategy (which Garv has stated numerous times).

Note: This is the Legacy Metagame Forum, please keep all posts focused on the deck in question. GW madness should not be discussed in this threat, there is already a GW thread in the developmental forum.

[Garvman]

Ok, I think there needs to be a little clearing up here:
UG Madness in all of it's forms comes from a Standard (Type 2) deck. I'm pretty sure I stated this in the very first part of the very first post. If you'll notice, with the exception of FoW, Brainstorm, Bouncer, Naturalize, and a buch of the lands, the entire deck is from the OTJ sets, BOTH the 1.5 and type 1 builds are based on the old type 2 deck, things were simply modified due to a larger pool of support cards, such as brainstorm and FoW.

@Happy: No, there is nothing "random", per-se, but there is a metagame slot (being the naturalizes) that can easily be switched around for changing metagames (for example, if your meta has a lot of Solitaire and not much Survival, you may want to use stifle instead of naturalize). I'm pretty sure I stated this in my fist post as well.

@ White Splash: If I were to splash white, I would consider brushopper, but he probably wouln't make the cut because he costs 3, and not only does that slow down the curve of the deck by a whole turn by waiting another turn to get madness going (a crucial one at that), it takes cost slot of arrogant wurm, and further decrases the tempo that way. Also, he may be evasive, but you MUST ditch 2 cards in order to use him (whether you have 2 cards you want to ditch or not), and you can only use him once per turn, making him a not so ideal madness outlet. The only card would make the cut with a white spalsh is STP, and I don't think it is worth the messing of the mana base.


@Guilded Drake: I tested him a little bit, and I've got to say, he is ok if I have a bouncer on the table, but otherwise, giving my opponent a 3/3 flyer is rarely an acceptable drawback with respect to the creature I am taking from them. If your meta is seeing a lot of big creature reanimator decks, than I can see him in a SB slot, but otherwise, 2 waterfront bouncers is not enough to make the drake good.


On another note, I'd like to bring up somthing that hasn't been discussed yet: I also tested Merfolk Looter, and was wondering if anyone else had done the same. I found him to be slow and not as useful as I thought he would be, simply because he couldn't swing and act as an outlet at the same time. He may have been useful in Standard, but in 1.5 he is too easily killed, and is not an effctive damage source (neither is waterfront bouncer, but SOME type of critter removal is necessary). I find that brainstorm/deep analysis is enough card draw, and that looter does more harm than good by slowing down the clock. Yes, I realize this deck plays like a control deck, but I've said before that it is successful because it only needs to control the game for a short period of time, while your creatures beat down, so the ideal decklist maintains a balance that tries not to sacrafice one element for the other (control/aggro), but rather use cards and strategies that compliment both elements at the same time. This is why Roar didn't make the cut, and why looter isn't making my cut.


EDIT: When you are wondering about a certain card choice or strategy, please take a moment to look at the rest of the thread (particularly the first post) and make sure that your question hasn't already been answered yet.



Edited By Garvman on 1104180954

[AngryTroll]

I really liked the Merfolk Looter. It won me many a game when I had to topdeck a logic to win. However, I cut the looter, and I have not regretted it.

Benefits:
Card drawing
Madness outlet

Downfall:
Slowness. The looter really needs another madness outlet in play to be good. Cards like Deep Analysis, Arrogant Wurm, Rootwalla, and Wonder build up in hand and have no way to make it to the graveyard quickly. But if turn two is spent casting a real outlet, and turn three EOT Arrogant Wurm, the earliest time to cast the Looter is turn 4. You do not draw a card until turn 5.
The problem with a turn two Looter is that it dies to everything. Swords, Fire/Ice, Bolt, even Lava Dart kills it. Twice. Casting the Looter turn two turns into a time walk for opponents far too often. Even if it does live, a Wild Mongrel is almost always far superior. The Mongrel (and Meoba) are harder to kill, swing for damage, and let you discard multiple cards a turn (A Wurm and Rootwalla, or Logic and Wallas, or Wonder then Logic for their turn.)

Well, why is Waterfront Bouncer included then? The Bouncer is also slow, but while it is sitting around dropping cards from hand, it helps deal with opponents' threats. The Looter sits there improving card quality, and does nothing about opponents creatures. Bouncer > Looter. By a lot.

I could see the Looter maybe in the sideboard for the control matchups where the Bouncer is no good, but Bouncer is good against Exalted Angel. Choke is a much better choice. I would love to use my Looters again, but I cannot justify their spot in the deck.

[goldenj]

I'm trying sylvan library in the brainstorm slot. The eight fetches seemed like it would make it worthwhile. (Though I'm still not convinced. The synergy of the fetch with circ logic is pretty good.) So far brainstorm is better vs duress (duh) and with Force (double duh) but sylvan is pretty strong otherwise. Especially vs control.

I really want some acceleration for turn one madness outlet. I can't find the room for mox diamonds, which would be good with the wasteland, which right now seem to be underperforming. I'm considering swapping them out for Yav. coasts or 3 forest 1 island. Elvish spirit guide has the same problem. Chrome mox would be okay for having the land slots, but I'm always shy good color cards to lose to it.

Without Survival the anger idea doesn't work, and of course survival makes this a different deck.

I'm liking Aether burst better than echoing truth. Much better in a race, better synergy with mongrel's card dumping.

Crazy idea I'm trying right now: 3 Oath of Scholars for 2 deep analysis and 1 wonder.

--John

[sauceding]

As a quick question, is madness qualify as full aggro deck or aggro-control?

[Sims]

As a quick question, is madness qualify as full aggro deck or aggro-control?
To answer this question, I will point it out in the Original post for you:


UGMadness is an aggro-control deck that runs off of the "madness" mechanic that was introduced in Oddesy block.

Simple enough. Please read the thread carefully before asking simple, one-line questions such as this in the LMF.

[BoTS]

With Survival and other aggro decks on the rise, is the suggestion of running Extended tech in the sideboard worth consideration? Submerge and Powder Keg seem like they could be good in the current metagame, albeit the fact that Keg is a little slow.

[baptist]

I tested a list very similar but with the following changes:

- 4 wasteland +2 island +2 forest
- 1 arrogant wurm -2 bouncer + 3 careful study

I use the careful study in addition to the brainstorm. What is the role of careful study?
Second turn you ideally tap out for a mongrel or moeba, but often this gets countered, STP or burnt away. Careful study helps to find another mongrel or moeba faster. And arrogant is dead without an outlet. 3 seems to do very well. Careful study also helps to get faster a wonder in the graveyard what seems to be the most important card in the deck. Without wonder winning games is difficult but with a wonder you are nearly unbeatable.

That's what I found from several testings against landstill, RGu survival and weldersurvival decks.

So I suggest using careful study in conjunction with brainstorm.

Be careful with the Brainstorm vs Careful Study argument. I understand that you are using them together, but be wary since "THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ON BRAINSTORM VS CAREFUL STUDY. IF YOU WANT TO USE STUDY IN YOUR DECK, GO FOR IT, BUT WE ARE ALL QUITE TIRED OF THAT ARGUMENT."

Peter_Rotten

[Khelek]

In my time playing the deck I've found that the Bouncer was essential. It serves as a reusable way to clear the board of Exalted Angels, Spore Frogs, and other threats you have trouble eliminating. Bouncer may seem dead or useless in control oriented matchups, but even there it can serve as removal protection for your most important men.

I can understand cutting Wasteland if it's been underperforming in your meta, but in mine most decks seem to run tons of non-basics. Wastelands have allowed me to cut my opponents off from a crucial color multiple times, so in my meta I would definitely be keeping them in.

I also see your attraction to Careful Study as it has been a madness deck staple since the deck was running around in block/T2, however it really isn't that powerful in the Legacy incarnation of the madness deck. Except for allowing you drop a wonder it's a poor madness outlet:
-It's sorcery speed means no ability to drop surprise threats eot.
-If you use it to power out an Arrogant Wurm you're most likely tapping out, which is something this deck doesn't really like to do.
-I can understand your point that it is useful for searching out a second madness outlet early in the game, however at that point in the game there are also few cards you truly want to discard to absorb the inherent card disadvantage it provides (Wonder, Deep Analysis, Basking Rootwalla, maybe extra lands).

So, those are my thoughts on your changes. If they've been working out for you though then that's great and I wish you continued success with the deck.

[FatHydralisk]

Ok, some of you who know me will smack your head and groan, but has anyone tried winter orb? Maybe it wouldnt fit maindeck, but it makes FoW, Daze, Rootwalla, Bouncer, and Wasteland more powerful. It also acts as a pseudo 'geddon, which could be used when you have good board position.

[ryan1989]

Winter Orb seems like a win-more card. Of course it's good with an active Waterfront Bouncer while you beat down with double Arrogant Wurm, but at that point you have already won. There is also the issue of what to cut, I assume that Winter Orb would be best against control but what card would you want to remove to fit in Winter Orbs, some might say that you should remove Naturalizes since Naturalize is a "metagame slot" but Naturalize takes care of many common control cards such as Crucible of Worlds, Nev's Disk and Isochron Scepter. Plus Madness already has a great game against most forms of control.

Please do not remove Waterfront Bouncer from Madness. He's a madness outlet and removal two things madness sorely needs. I'm not going to argue with Careful Study since it has been argued to death since Madness was ported to 1.5.

[baptist]

I will not argue against waterfrount bouncer. UG madness definately needs him. But I play him 2 times in my SB.

I want to hear some more about which cards you play in your SB. For the moment I play:

2 tsabo's web (landstill I kick you)
2 B2B
3 stifle (combo, control)
2 bouncer
3 BEB
3 tormod's crypt (reanimator, survival)

[BoTS]

Why would you play 2 Webs and 2 BtB instead of just running three or four of the latter? Web only shines against Landstill while Back to Basics tends to kick quite a few decks in the teeth, not to mention that it also pitches to Force of Will. That second fact alone would make me want to run more of them over Web even in a Landstill heavy metagame.

[Eclipt1c]

Why would you play 2 Webs and 2 BtB instead of just running three or four of the latter? Web only shines against Landstill while Back to Basics tends to kick quite a few decks in the teeth, not to mention that it also pitches to Force of Will. That second fact alone would make me want to run more of them over Web even in a Landstill heavy metagame.
I agree with BoTs, run one or the other. Both are succeptable to the same hate, Web may be easier to cast and cantrips, except it's so much more narrow than B2B, I'm not seeing why you're running Web at all.

[Carney2k4]

Has anyone concidered +1 Bouncer -1 Naturalize? This is a pure metagame decision, but I plan on seeing alot of aggro in the future and was wondering if anyone has tested this. Thoughts?

[ryan1989]

I have also tested a third Waterfront Bouncer in the maindeck. I just don't find it necessary, and if I were to replace a card with bouncer it would be a Deep Analysis(my list runs one less land and an additional Deep Analysis).

[SillyMetalGAT]

Hey garv, great decklist! The thing I wanted to know is, has anyone else considered Masticore in replacement of bouncer or in the SB? He absolutely owns weenie decks, can block 'Tog and live, AND he's a madness outlet (granted its a forced outlet, but its still an outlet). On top of that, he's a 4/4 beatstick... Just an idea. Maybe he could go in the meta slot, but thats 12 outlets, I dont know... I'll put up another post after Sunday with my results of using him.

[Carney2k4]

The fact that Masticore is a forced outlet doesn't make it very appealing. On top of that, he's 4 mana, and is very mana intensive, and U/G Madness lacks the resources needed to make Masticore function properly. He really isn't needed on top of all of that. I'm interested in how your testing goes though.

[Garvman]

Masticore is quite the interesting idea... the fact that he adds solid creature removal to a deck that is otherwise lacking it is appealing, and that 4/4 regenerating part isn't to bad either. I do not, however, like the idea of forced discard, because I have a feeling that it would bite me in the ass one to many times, and I also don't like the idea of tapping 4 mana on my turn (see: Roar of the Wurm). I am actually quite interested to see how he works out, although I think that he would be better in UGr aggro builds running squee than in the UG control builds. Do some testing and let me know how it goes. I think I will test him out a little bit too....can't hurt! :)

[SillyMetalGAT]

Well, I played 10 games with Bane_Of_The_Living, and the results were 4-10..... Most of the time I lost because of Titan (Such a stupid card by the way) But the game I did win, 3 out of the 4 had Masticore at the end of the game. Masticore works because the things that were discarded were things such as:

1. Extra Lands
2. Extra Madness outlets
3. Madness cards

not to mention that his welders never really got to do much, cuz i just blasted them when he went to do that silly thing with the welder..... But, more testing shall be done!

[Carney2k4]

I think that usually this will sit in your hand and be discarded to a Mongrel to keep it alive. I usually get 4 lands around turn 5-6, because of Wastelands and other things, and the idea of tapping out still doesn't delight me, as a simple Disenchant will ruin your days, and reaching 6 mana to keep it protected isn't really an option with the low amount of mana sources. I just don't think the card has a place here, and I'd rather splash red or white for removal rather than using a mana intensive forced Madness outlet.

[SillyMetalGAT]

A few things to attempt to save my Metal-friend from a horrible death:

1. Even though it's forced, It's still a madness outlet.
2. It serves as a better form of creature removal than Bouncer
3. He's a 4/4 beatstick, So even if you have to discard good stuff to him, he still smashes face.
4. He eats little goblins
5. He lives through burn
6. As of Mirrodin, didn't they give regeneration against destroy effects? I could be wrong, don't quote me on it!

[Carney2k4]

@1 It's still 4 mana, while Bouncer is 2.
@2 This is true, but it isn't fast removal, and usually wont kill things higher than a toughness of 2, while Bouncer can bounce them.
@3 This is true, but fat is usually not the issue with this deck, as we already have alot of fat in Arrogant Wurms.
@4 You got me.
@5 Also true, except for Fireblast and Shrapnel Blast.
@6 I'm confused here. I was talking about Naturalizing the Masticore the turn that you play it, because normally Madness wont see 6 lands in a game, and if they do usually 1 is a Wasteland. Regeneration does protect it from Naturalize, assuming that you had mana to Regenerate it.

I just don't see how this fills the hole of removal in Madness. On turn 5 you can kill a 2/2...yay? Bouncer drops sooner, and isn't a forced Madness outlet, albiet he does have disadvantages, I'd rather see him than Masticore usually. Plus tapping out to play Masticore isn't hot.

[finley]

Plus Bouncer is BLUE so he can be discarded wo FOW. Masticore seems suboptimal, but Garv did mention testing a new version of the deck with Squee that Masticore might be better in.

[Eclipt1c]

For the last time, and dammit this better be the last time I have to say this. NEVER, I repeat, NEVER put a card that FORCES you to discard into an aggro control version of Madness. The deck relies on Madness as card advantage and tempo, if you're forced to discard something you don't need to, or want to, then it's bad in the deck, as simple as that.


Masticore is terrible in the deck, it's far too mana intensive, the mana base can't support it. Also, the deck can't support the 'Core lock and still win. The ping is negligible as you'd never have enough open mana to kill anything 90% of the time. He may eat goblins, but so does Wurm, Rootwalla, Mongrel, and Aquamoeba.


Also, before I was a stalwart supporter of 8 fetchlands, but I have now grown a distinct hate for that many in the deck. The manabase is extremely flimsy with all 8 in the deck. The deck thining has become almost invisible as far as I am concerned. The deck needs more basics to support a safer, more reliable manabase. My suggestion is cutting down to at most 6 fetchlands.

[ryan1989]

For the last time, and dammit this better be the last time I have to say this. NEVER, I repeat, NEVER put a card that FORCES you to discard into an aggro control version of Madness. The deck relies on Madness as card advantage and tempo, if you're forced to discard something you don't need to, or want to, then it's bad in the deck, as simple as that.


Masticore is terrible in the deck, it's far too mana intensive, the mana base can't support it. Also, the deck can't support the 'Core lock and still win. The ping is negligible as you'd never have enough open mana to kill anything 90% of the time. He may eat goblins, but so does Wurm, Rootwalla, Mongrel, and Aquamoeba.


Also, before I was a stalwart supporter of 8 fetchlands, but I have now grown a distinct hate for that many in the deck. The manabase is extremely flimsy with all 8 in the deck. The deck thining has become almost invisible as far as I am concerned. The deck needs more basics to support a safer, more reliable manabase. My suggestion is cutting down to at most 6 fetchlands.
I completely agree with six saclands, eight is just too many. I also find 21 lands to be the right number, replacing an island with an extra Deep Analysis.

[Garvman]

I have tested a little with Masticore, and I do not like him.... the main problem being that tapping out on turn 4 (when I am already down to like 2-3 cards in hand, none of which want to be discarded until I am ready to do so) to play a 4/4 is not working out. It was a nice suggestion, but I just don't like him.

Also: I am still running 8 fetches, and this only seems to be an issue when I play Tariq (captian stifle man). Otherwise, the 8 fetches seem to work out fine.

Also: I have been attempting to work on the Survival matchup, and decided to give some SB annuls a shot. More on this when I test them.



Edited By Garvman on 1109188216

[ITRules]

Unnecessary decklist deleted.
Peter_Rotten

I know right now you are asking yourselves why I am using Obsessive search. Well this is a madness deck and being able to activate abilities of your critters while drawing a card is really very handy. I know it might not be as good as brainstorm but a dual effect is much better than a random 1 in 3 chance of finding a good card with brainstorm for me. It just ends up most of the time being the same thing.

I also think that 4 fetchlands are more than enough pain for you to absorb. All you need is a good mana base.

Deep analysis is just great but I was also kinda thinking of fact or fiction...

[Happy Gilmore]

Wow, I don't think I have ever seen obsessive search suggested for any competitive deck in the last 2 years. Brainstorm does exactly three time more. Brainstorm is most effective in making a bad starting hand feasable, which obsessive search can't hope to do. An opening hand of: Island, mongrel, rootwalla, wurm, logic, force, and brainstorm(close the the ideal hand) is way better than those same cards with Search instead. Think about it this way, UG threshold(od-block deck) would rather play mental note than obsessive search even though Obsessive Search draws a card when discarded to breakthrough or mongrel.

(Regarding FoF)I am almost sure this was answered on a previous Madness thread, but I'll address it anyway. I can count on two hands how many times over the last year I have hardcasted the Deep A, so FoF is way, way out of the question. Idealy the maximum # of lands in play at any point in time durring a game should be 4 or 5(for hardcasting wurm).

I hope that answered all of your questions.
For everyone who is new to the source, please read all previous threads before posting in the LMF. Thanks.

[Garvman]

Obsesive search simply does not generate the card quality that is needed for the deck. Plus, the 6 to 8 fetch lands that the deck runs allows for you to put any dead cards back, and them shuffle them away, so you can keep the useful cards in your hand. FoF is good, but it is a little expensive at 4 mana, and deep analysis has more synergy with the deck (yes, I know obsessive search has synergy, but it's effect is sub-par). A note on the fetchlands: they are there for 2 reasons: One, to improve the mana base, and it is correct that 4 does this just fine, but they are also there to increase early gravyard count for early logics. Trust me, it is more important than you might think!

[ryan1989]

Also: I have been attempting to work on the Survival matchup, and decided to give some SB annuls a shot. More on this when I test them.
I too have been working on the survival matchup and I have found Submerge to be quite an effective answer, it provides a massive tempo swing when used early and is also great against RG Advantage and the mirror.

[Happy Gilmore]

My testing also comfirms the usefulness of submerge. When you combine the fact that it is a tempo gain, can be cast without any mana, and at instant speed, I have little doubt that submerge will make it into the SB.

One more thing about the sideboard. I have been a big advocate of Chalice of the Void replacing Chill strictly on the grounds that it is a more efficient sideboard slot.

Weld-sur
goblin sligh
Stompy(of various kinds)
Burn
Combo(including both Solidarity and belcher)
WWW
WW
Angel Stompy

All of these are atleast partially hosed by it. Has anyone else given it the nod?

[HuntedWumpus]

I recently decided to start playing this deck again in my local legacy events. However, upon looking at the list I originally put together (similar to the one presented here) I knew the deck had some HUGE weak spots and was going to have trouble dealing with several elements of the current environment. Here I the list that I have tested extensively and piloted in tourney several times.

Standard Creatures (16):
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Basking rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm

Permissions/Tools (10):
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
2 Echoing Truth

Search (6):
4 Brainstorm
2 Merfolk Looter

Intuition and likely targets (7):
2 Intuition
1 Wonder
2 Roar of the Wurm
2 Deep Analysis

Mana Base (21):
3 Flooded strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Forest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Back to Basics
4 Naturalize
2 Misdirection
4 Compost
2 Blue Elemental Blast

The reforms I made for this deck were primarily based around adding another element to U/g madness that would add additional threatening cards to the deck without polluting the two color mana base, and cheap creatures that make U/g rock solid.

My first major goal in reforming the deck was to make sure the deck had ways to bounce permanents, and element I feel U/g must include as it is generally short on tools for dealing with cards you didn't want to hit the board. The card choices in this category are basically as follows . . .
- Waterfront Bouncer
- Man-o-War
- Chain of Vapor
- Echoing Truth
I choose echoing truth because it presents no risk as opposed to chain of vapor. The instant also provide more of a surprise attack rather than the bouncer. I finally cut the Man-o-War on the grounds that in this case the deck doesn't need the creature and Echoing truth costs less.

The next card I feel MUST be included in better madness builds is Merfolk Looter. Looter is simply busted to all hell in u/g. Even though an early looter seems like a weak play, and it is in the sense that u/g wants to establish some early damage dealing threats, she is actually one of the largest if not THE largest threat to the game for your opponents. If not dealt with quickly she will almost always lead to a game win simply because she has basically no drawback in this deck because there is almost always a roar, deep, wonder, logic, rootwalla, or land (because we need so few) to pitch. I cannot recall loosing a game where a looter came down on the second or third turns. Optimally there would be three of these in madness but I was forced to cut one for the intuition engine to have optimal access to cards.

Now we arrive to the part that really sets my build aside from the type 2 knock off style builds. Intuition provides madness a card that can be amazingly game breaking. In a generic situation, the madness pilot goes for 1 deep analysis, 1 roar of the wurm, and the 1 wonder. Under most circumstances if the opponent is smart he will give you the wonder, even if he could care less about flying, simply so you don't have the potential to cast the other spells twice. Also generally speaking you will have a madness outlet so all the cards goto the grave anyway. After an intuition, the opponent will be looking at you drawing up to 4-6 cards, you having flying 4/4's or even worse 6/6's. You can of course alter the targets to bring in both roars or both deep's. Intuition also provides a tutor for a must have counter in certain situations, or a needed creature for that matter.

My sideboard reflects my meta so I won't really go over it. However it has served me well and should be a pretty good template for dealing with your weakness's.

So what do you think. IMO this is the direction the deck has to move if it wants to be a contender. This build has greater flexibility for playing both the aggro and control roles, and handle's the current format well.

[ryan1989]

You see, the problem with cards like Intuition and Roar of the Wurm are that they hit the top of the decks mana curve. Basically in madness you want to get to three mana as soon as possible, and then use said mana to cast circular logic, deep analysis, rootwalla pumps and the occasional(sp?) Arrogant Wurm.

[scrumdogg]

As Garv & Kirdape3 stated at the beginning of the thread, U/G Madness as designed in this thread is intended to be aggro-control. The purpose of the deck is to present quick aggressive threats and then hold off the opponent while the fast, flying beats eat their face. Your deck represents a much slower, more controlling model (which isn't bad but is significantly different). 1 Wonder, for example, does not guarantee any kind of early action. Roar etc are at the top of the mana curve as was pointed out. The question becomes, in the current meta (such as it is) which version solves the tournament equation better - aggro-control or control w/aggro elements? Quite frankly, this is a question which should be asked about every deck on a regular basis. The game does not exist in a vacuum & optimization requires constant evaluation & re-evaluation.

[HuntedWumpus]

The question becomes, in the current meta (such as it is) which version solves the tournament equation better - aggro-control or control w/aggro elements?

This is exactly my point, although looking at my post I never blatantly stated it. I feel that to compete in the current state of the metagame U/g need to introduce a greater emphasis on the control aspect of the deck rather than play as an excessively aggro deck.


You see, the problem with cards like Intuition and Roar of the Wurm are that they hit the top of the decks mana curve. Basically in madness you want to get to three mana as soon as possible, and then use said mana to cast circular logic, deep analysis, rootwalla pumps and the occasional(sp?) Arrogant Wurm.

This represents a very shallow understanding of the potential this deck possess. You probably played this deck back in Odyssey block where all the deck really had to do was to throw out some threats and beat for the win; while control aspects of the deck were meant to protect its creatures and stop and crazy bomb spells.

However, OPTIMALLY U/g should not function that way in the Legacy format. The speed of the format will be the death of it using that strategy simply because other decks have faster bigger/trickey'er creatures, and removal is so abundant and in better forms than in Odyssey (stp, good burn, instant speed edicts). I think was this deck really wants to do is to get some stuff on the table while not letting the opponent really develops well. Then, if the game goes on crush them with an intuition or a mass of creatures. You will see these idea's reflected in my build.

@ryan1989: Perhaps you disagree with my thoughts, but if you would like to discuss it please do so with a valid, and plainly stated argument; rather than just throwing out the 3 mana curve statement which everyone has heard 100,000 times. No offense meant.

[ryan1989]

You see, the problem with cards like Intuition and Roar of the Wurm are that they hit the top of the decks mana curve. Basically in madness you want to get to three mana as soon as possible, and then use said mana to cast circular logic, deep analysis, rootwalla pumps and the occasional(sp?) Arrogant Wurm.

This represents a very shallow understanding of the potential this deck possess. You probably played this deck back in Odyssey block where all the deck really had to do was to throw out some threats and beat for the win; while control aspects of the deck were meant to protect its creatures and stop and crazy bomb spells.

However, OPTIMALLY U/g should not function that way in the Legacy format. The speed of the format will be the death of it using that strategy simply because other decks have faster bigger/trickey'er creatures, and removal is so abundant and in better forms than in Odyssey (stp, good burn, instant speed edicts). I think was this deck really wants to do is to get some stuff on the table while not letting the opponent really develops well. Then, if the game goes on crush them with an intuition or a mass of creatures. You will see these idea's reflected in my build.

@ryan1989: Perhaps you disagree with my thoughts, but if you would like to discuss it please do so with a valid, and plainly stated argument; rather than just throwing out the 3 mana curve statement which everyone has heard 100,000 times. No offense meant.
Actually, I am one of the people who has consistently top4ed at some large legacy events with UG Madness , but whatever. Merfolk Looter is too slow and vunerable in the current enviornment, if merfolk looter had haste it would be a different story, but as it stands he's just too vunerable. As far as Intuition goes, there are much better things that could be done with 3 mana, such as flashing back deep analysis and havin mana left over for circular logic.

Roar of the Wurm is just garbage, without an outlet he is uncastable, hell he might even be uncastable while in the graveyard, wurm tokens can be chump blocked all day, die to Tradewind Riders and Waterfront Bouncers and other such bounce. Other decks " bigger/ trickier creatures" are often taken care of by Waterfront Bouncer, which for some reason you neglect to run and Wonder which you run as a one of, sure you can intuition for it, but why not just run three so you can stop running 3 mana instants that are bad unless you are winning, sure intuition for Roar of the Wurm is great when your opponent has no answer for it and you have 4 mana but again how often are both those conditions met? Yeah intuition for Wonder is good when you have an outlet on the board and have some way to protect it when you tap yourself out for Intuition, but again is it a reliable play? Most likely not.

[Garvman]

Yea, if Looter had haste, we'd be saying Aqua...what?, because we would all be too busy cantriping on logics. Anyways, If flashback could be played as an instant, roar would probably make the cut, but tapping 4 mana during your own turn is not reccomended with this deck. Now all we need is a blue shock, and this deck would have it all (psi-blast costs too much).

[HuntedWumpus]

I find it really hard to argue against a merfolk looter. The following is a simple fact that cannot be disputed . . .

According to the principles of role assignment, U/G madness will have a fair amount of match's where it is not the "beatdown" and hence plays the part of the "control" deck in the current state of the metagame. -End fact.

Based on that, I reformed the deck to be better suited to play that role. Merfolk looter is a supremely well crafted card for U/G to accomplish it's goals while playing control aspects. Merfolk looter provides:
1. Ways for U/G to continually cycle through cards to keep control elements in hand, while getting vital cards into the grave.
2. A solid second turn drop that spends mana on the second turn where many of its "control" spells are not yet active due to a lack of a outlet.
3. A card that is virtually NEVER dead. Yes, its not a bad draw in an aggro match, because you can resupply your threats faster and cycle through land that you aren't wanting in that match.

I will re-state my core belief on current success of U/G:
The standard U/G that wants three mana and provides a simple aggro deck is no longer the smart way to play madness; additionally that plan rules out the use of great spells for U/G such as Intuition .

[AngryTroll]

The problem with Looter, and I have said this before, is that he dies to anything larger then a sneeze from your opponent. Fire/Ice, Bolt, Incinerate, Sharpshooter, even Lava Dart kills him. I agree that he is great as a two drop, but even then cards can start to build up in hand when you want them in the yard. Multiples of Rootwallas, Deep Analysi (what's the plural of Analysis?), Wonders, A Wurms, etc. Looter dies to Splash Damage for Goblin Welder, as well as random burn. If there is not much burn in your area, he is at least arguable.

If we could get the Looter to live through an untap phase, he would be great. And before anyone brings up the extended deck that ran Lightning Greaves, no. WORST IDEA EVER. Don't suggest it. Yes, I realize that Meoba also dies to Bolt, but you can use him to dump DAs and Rootwallas in responce. He does not die to Lava Dart and Fire/Ice, though (unless you have no more cards in hand, in which case you should be done with the Meoba as a Madness outlet)

[Brushwagg]

I have to agree with the whole Merfolk Looter sucks side. When it really comes down to it on turn 2, do you want to cast Dog or Looter??

One other thought: Has anyone ever thought about Lotus Petal. There are 3 main reason why I'm thinking about it.
1.First turn Dog is pretty good I hear.
2.With a Fetch Land and Petal both iun yard turn two logics are for two.
3.No Imprint or Discard (Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond)
Just a thought.

[Mulletus]

I searched this topic for a card I thought would be good in the sideboard, and didn't see it mentioned.

Null Brooch = 4cc artifact. 2, tap, discard your hand: counter target non-creature spell.

I think this would be a viable option against control decks. Like landstill or others. Late game, landstill can take control with any number of options. Not only is UGMadness willing to discard cards, but it may already be in 'top-deck' mode by then. So if you draw madness: hold it. If it's not, play it and dicard an empty hand to counter. Or worse come to worse, hide the goods on top of your deck with brainstorm, and discard the bads. I think it might work against belcher decks too, but it might be too slow for them.

[Solomox]

Not really. Null Brooch has really good synergy but ultimately its prohibitve cost keeps it down.

[Brushwagg]

YA Null Brooch kinda sucks. The problem is not really counters, this deck really needs to be sped up just a little. Any goblin deck just eats U/G before it really can get going. I think 2 additions worth looking into are Lotus Petal, and LED. Lotus Petal makes turn 1 Wild Mongrel possible and pumps turn 2 Logics.
LED on the other hand could give this deck a blazing start, but you sac your whole hand. Which is never good in any deck. However if you refined the deck to run with LED it might work.

[Raven Fire]

Is Jitte even being considered in Legacy U/G Madness? It seems to provide the appropriate weenie removal and can obviously be game breaking on a dog. Vintage decks are starting to run it but I was wondering if this version can handle the tempo loss. If it takes Bouncer slots, does that stress your blue card count too much?

[Garvman]

Jitte is not an awfulidea, but I do not like it repacing Bouncer. Not because it isn't blue, but because it isn't a madness outlet. It might be a nice SB addition.
If you are going to use mana accel, use chrome mox, because Petal, while great in theory, is a bummer after it goes away in one use. LED has been tried, but IMO it destroys synergy, by removing your hand (you have control elements tha you may want to keep), and by leaving whatever you accel out open to whatever answer your opponent has.

[Zilla]

Chrome Mox: I've tested it, and it's not good. You're pretty light on threats as it is. The added speed simply wasn't worth the card disadvantage.

LED: Utterly sucks in UG Madness. Awesome in RUG Madness, but that's because the deck is built around LED, and runs 4 Roar of the Wurm. That's a pure aggro deck, this is an aggro-control deck. Because of your control elements, you want to play a slower, safer game, rather than the "explode on your face, pray to god you don't have Force of Will or Swords" strategy that RUG Madness uses.

Lotus Petal: Your manabase is pretty tight as it is. Garv is right that Chrome Mox would be better. Hell, even Elvish Spirit Guide would be better, because at least it's another threat in the late game. It's still not good.

Jitte: Haven't tested it. It might be good, it might not. Most likely it's better as an SB option.

[ryan1989]

Chrome Mox: I've tested it, and it's not good. You're pretty light on threats as it is. The added speed simply wasn't worth the card disadvantage.

LED: Utterly sucks in UG Madness. Awesome in RUG Madness, but that's because the deck is built around LED, and runs 4 Roar of the Wurm. That's a pure aggro deck, this is an aggro-control deck. Because of your control elements, you want to play a slower, safer game, rather than the "explode on your face, pray to god you don't have Force of Will or Swords" strategy that RUG Madness uses.

Lotus Petal: Your manabase is pretty tight as it is. Garv is right that Chrome Mox would be better. Hell, even Elvish Spirit Guide would be better, because at least it's another threat in the late game. It's still not good.

Jitte: Haven't tested it. It might be good, it might not. Most likely it's better as an SB option.
Atleast in my testing Jitte has been a great sideboard card, especiall with all the fish in the texas meta.

[Zilla]

Moved to Open by overwhelming majority vote for the following reasons:

The deck is hardly prevalent these days. Most of its appearances have been in Texas. The list hasn't been updated in nearly a year. No one really considers it a metagame concern when creating a gauntlet. It's misleading to suggest that it would do well in an idealized meta containing the other current DTB's.

- Zilla

[colsmack]

Are the more recent lists similar to the first one, or different?

I think its time to take this is a new direction. Its a little slow to function as a fas taggro deck. I think the deck should be more controllish, with Aggro elements. This would allow it to play Intuition, Roar of the Wurm, and other stuff. Is this the right move to move away from aggro and towards control?

[AnwarA101]

Are the more recent lists similar to the first one, or different?

I think its time to take this is a new direction. Its a little slow to function as a fas taggro deck. I think the deck should be more controllish, with Aggro elements. This would allow it to play Intuition, Roar of the Wurm, and other stuff. Is this the right move to move away from aggro and towards control?
I think this would be a bad move considering this would be a control deck that would lose to Landstill. I'm not sure it would ever be able to beat Landstill without playing for tempo. By going control you would give up tempo in favor of more powerful spells but would be much slower. You could try it but you would ask yourself why would I play this version instead of Landstill. The current deck can at least boast a 50/50 matchup with Landstill and many other decks.

[Zilla]

I think the deck should be more controllish, with Aggro elements. This would allow it to play Intuition, Roar of the Wurm, and other stuff. Is this the right move to move away from aggro and towards control?
But... Intuition would usually be for searching out Roars, and Roars are aggro, right? It sounds to me like you're saying, "This is pretty slow for an aggro deck, should we make it an even slower aggro deck?" It doesn't really make sense. If you wanted to make the deck more controlling, you'd want to suggest dropping threats for draw, removal, or counters. Intuition and Roar don't fit into any of those three categories.

[colsmack]

I think the deck needs to slow down and rely on the control until it can drop a couple threats and win.

[CavernNinja]

That doesn't mean that you need to run Intuition and Roar of the Worm which are neither control elements nor much more effecient than the already in place win conditions (Mongrel and Wurm). Basking Rootwalla can be used as a controlish card by being dropped at instant speed and blocking something like a Lackey or any other 1 toughness critter.

[www.wins]

And moreover, in this format, if you want to want to add aggro elements into this deck, you need things that is fast and win the game. However, there are not much choice for this deck right now as far as the card pool goes. Cards like RotW and intuition run in U/G/R madness because they can win the game with insane speed (with the help of anger and dual lands). There aren't much new cards that can help this deck, but personally I think Jitte will be worth a try.

[Brushwagg]

Jitte seems nice. But what would it replace? Right now the list is tight and as AnwarA101 said it can go 50/50 with alot of decks, barring a few.

As far as the list now changing.

1.)No new Madness outlets
2.)No new Madness creatures.

@Colsmack:Garv pretty much explained why Intuition and RotW aren't in the deck.

[baptist]

the latest version of this deck is found on MTGsalvation:

I think daze is really the way to go. Naturalize in the side.

Decklist deleted. Please don't spam the thread with deck lists. Next, explain your ideas a bit more. Why do you see Daze as a better inclusion main?

Peter_Rotten

[ryan1989]

Baptist is correct, Daze is a GREAT card, so great infact that i bumped it up to 4 in my build. It's a force of will for the first 4 turns of the game, i fail to see how that can be a bad thing, late game it's force fodder. I have also been testing and loving eternal witness.

[TorakTwoEye]

Daze's merit aside - what is the arguement for running Deep Analysis? I know with flashback it is cheap mana wise and generates card advantage(reason enough alone to run it) but 3 life has always seemed very steep to me. Especially when you are using sac lands and Force of Willing. I mean you can easily burn yourself to 14 or 15. And since the meta is aggro oriented these days how can Madness afford to burn itself so much.

I know that other control/controlish decks can take that kind of self-burn but they usually run many more counters and removal(STP) and sweepers(Wrath) than Madness so they have more/better answers.

Feel free to contest me on this since I see it in every decklist and would like to know why people feel it is worth the risk.

[Brushwagg]

I know with flashback it is cheap mana wise and generates card advantage(reason enough alone to run it) but 3 life has always seemed very steep to me

Yes drawing cards is good. The only life point that matters is the last 1 the other 19 don't matter.
Madness can race alot of pure agro decks and win thanks to cheap fatties, cast as instants, and Waterfront Bouncer.

[TorakTwoEye]

I know that Madness can race most pure aggro(i.e. goblins,stompy etc.). What I meant more specifically is "how can Madness stand to lose 4-5 life worth of time against Survival?" I see a lot of Survival in my meta and if you are racing a damage clock I dont see how starting the clock at 15 helps. I just dont see the card advantage being worth it.

[Brushwagg]

Well there is nothing else that really fits into the slot. If your having problems with Survival, I would suggest boarding for it. Pithing Needle just kicks it in the junk. Annul is another good choice. DA is too good in deck to replace. What would you suggest to put in it's spot?

[ryan1989]

I know that Madness can race most pure aggro(i.e. goblins,stompy etc.). What I meant more specifically is "how can Madness stand to lose 4-5 life worth of time against Survival?" I see a lot of Survival in my meta and if you are racing a damage clock I dont see how starting the clock at 15 helps. I just dont see the card advantage being worth it.
If by survival you mean ATS, then just pack up your shit, you weren't going to win anyway. If by survival you mean RG Survival, if you get Wonder you win.

As far as madness against goblins, again just pack up your shit, they have a good 10 I WIN cards, not counting lackey, and frankly they couldn't care less about Arrogant Wurm. Oh yay! you blocked a piledriver at instant speed how cute! too bad your still dead.

I played this deck since the beginning of legacy, and to be honest its just BAD in the current meta, even jitte isn't enough to revive it(and thats saying something).

[Brushwagg]

Ya Goblins is rough, but not unbeatable. Also you can win the ATS match, just keep Survival off the table.

Madness can go 50/50 with all most anything. That is also the reason people are moving away from it. Going 50/50 is just kinda blah. I do remain hopeful that something will come along to really give this deck a shot in the arm.

[Zilla]

Frankly, I think you give the deck too much credit. It essentially loses to decks with a faster clock (which is a lot of them), or decks with better board control (which is a lot of them), or decks with bigger creatures (which is some of them). With Gro rising in popularity especially, the meta is more and more prepared for decks which a) use fat to win, b) abuse the graveyard.

Logic is slow and doesn't answer threats that hit turn one and two, meaning the deck is extremely reliant on FoW against decks like ATS (which is packing FoWs of its own).

Goblins can consistently race you, since you have no removal to speak of. (Bouncer is rather slow and inefficient in the face of a deck comprised 70% of creatures, particularly when they can dodge your countermagic.)

Landstill can repeatedly wipe your boad and outcontrol you.

Gro can outcontrol you, outdraw, you, and actually has creature removal.

The deck is lightning fast, but is also heavily disrupatable, and if the game goes long, it has very few ways to deal with significant threats that get through its counterwall. If you're looking for fast aggro, there's no reason to play this over Goblins. If you're looking for rock solid aggro control, there's no reason to play this over Gro (excepting, perhaps, the more stable manabase).

In essence, there's not a lot of reason to play it anymore.

[ryan1989]

Frankly, I think you give the deck too much credit. It essentially loses to decks with a faster clock (which is a lot of them), or decks with better board control (which is a lot of them), or decks with bigger creatures (which is some of them). With Gro rising in popularity especially, the meta is more and more prepared for decks which a) use fat to win, b) abuse the graveyard.

Logic is slow and doesn't answer threats that hit turn one and two, meaning the deck is extremely reliant on FoW against decks like ATS (which is packing FoWs of its own).

Goblins can consistently race you, since you have no removal to speak of. (Bouncer is rather slow and inefficient in the face of a deck comprised 70% of creatures, particularly when they can dodge your countermagic.)

Landstill can repeatedly wipe your boad and outcontrol you.

Gro can outcontrol you, outdraw, you, and actually has creature removal.

The deck is lightning fast, but is also heavily disrupatable, and if the game goes long, it has very few ways to deal with significant threats that get through its counterwall. If you're looking for fast aggro, there's no reason to play this over Goblins. If you're looking for rock solid aggro control, there's no reason to play this over Gro (excepting, perhaps, the more stable manabase).

In essence, there's not a lot of reason to play it anymore.
Qouted for immense ammounts of truth.

The only think really beats consistantly is jank and ummm...yeah. I hate a deck that scoops to Plow(for all intents and purposes,if you don't have an outlet, you lose). However I would love to be proven wrong!

[Brushwagg]

there's no reason to play this over Goblins

Except that I hate Goblins with a passion.

Since everyone just hates the deck now shouldn't this thread be locked ???

[Zilla]

Since everyone just hates the deck now shouldn't this thread be locked ???
Not per se, no. Just because there are stronger choices in the aggro-control category doesn't mean there's no reason to continue discussing the Madness archetype. It just needs some resiliency and a massive overhaul if it wants to stay competitive. The reason the deck is foundering (among other things) is that the list hasn't changed more than a few cards in longer than a year. Ostensibly, that's what threads are for; discussing advancements to the archetype.

[Lanfeng]

I really like madness. At a recent tourney i placed ninth (missed T8 through bad breakers) I'm not the perfect player and I was noted i could've won a match if i had played it out in a different way. Madness is an extremely versatile deck in my opinion, and has the ability to play as Agro when it wants and control when it wants. Since in my meta (which isnt ideal BTW) is very low on survival and higher in landstill (no solidarity b/c nobody has resets) this is a powerful deck being able to block goblins all day and bring in the chill game 2. The deck seems to have its bad matchups only against the burn decks that at least 1 person plays every week. i guess this is highly based on my opinion and in my meta but i think that madness could make it in some metas.

@Jitte: I have found that i really love this card because it forces control to counter/kill all creatures for as long as you can keep up the flow (or they disenchant the jitte) now the only deck capable to keep that up are the four color landstill builds around my meta and when a creature resolves beats for 5+ will most likely win the game. Against Goblins it can kill the piledrivers almost as good as rootwalla does so I really feel that Jitte could be a strong card in Madness

@RotW I played roar at the tourney and it didn't go to well so I am for the "Roar sucks" side. Its slow, Taps out, and they can bounce it as an additional way to kill it.

Another thing I am going to try out is Isao enlightened Bushi. He would be an awsome regenerating beater and blocks lands all day

[the_show]

I feel Madness is still a viable deck. I go 50/50 against u/w/r Landstill constantly. Any deck that has game against Landstill should be considered at least tier 1.5 because Landstill is the best deck in Legacy. My version of Madness plays 4 SotF MD. I'm a huge advocate on the use of SotF because it provides more madness outlets, it creates an engine, and is incredible pain in the ass for most decks to deal with.

Madness has many good matchups, so I don't understand why it's considered uncompeditive. What beats u/g Madness???

[scrumdogg]

The manabase has always been one of the limiting factors to the deck. Can the deck seriously benefit from the new dual lands? Will the ability to run 8 Tropical Islands + fetches + Yavimaya Coasts be a good thing?With everything in the deck except a forest & a couple of islands tapping for U or G, what does that do for the deck in terms of consistency? What would be an optimal modern build in the era of Vial Goblins-Landstill-Solidarity-maybeFish/Gro?

[Lanfeng]

No this deck does not need the new Duals. 6-8 fetches as well as 4 trops works for the deck because as a two color deck it is extremely mana consistant and should not need to be vulnerablealized(is that a word?) to wasteland by adding more non-basics.

When i played Madness i couldn't beat vial goblins those chances are slim. basically what you need is a turn 2 madness outlet and the right counters for the right spells. Vials will kill you but you can block everything they have with the lizard. A friend of mine had the idea to run sandstorm sideboard for goblins because it kills all their creatures except warchief siege gang and piledriver, tough match but possible. Against landstill it is at least 50/50 against 3 color you should be able to win due to a lower amount of answers to creatures, but against 4 color you can't do anything because they have answers to everything that you have you might squeeze through a mongrel angainst edict/swords/deed/counters but it is doubtful. you have to hit hard and fast against landstill or you are doomed. i have not tested against any other aggro-control variants due to the lack of them in my area. as for solidarity, nobody has resets and therefore nobody plays solidarity. so as for those match ups i dont know

[ryan1989]

I feel Madness is still a viable deck. I go 50/50 against u/w/r Landstill constantly. Any deck that has game against Landstill should be considered at least tier 1.5 because Landstill is the best deck in Legacy. My version of Madness plays 4 SotF MD. I'm a huge advocate on the use of SotF because it provides more madness outlets, it creates an engine, and is incredible pain in the ass for most decks to deal with.

Madness has many good matchups, so I don't understand why it's considered uncompeditive. What beats u/g Madness???
The reason that madness is not viable is,unfortunatley, its reliance on a turn 2 madness outlet, which makes it pretty much inferior in everyway to UG Threshold.

[juventus]

After a long break from magic, I have come back and started fooling around with U/G madness on MWS. Thuis is the list I have been using:

//1cc
4 basking rootwalla
4 careful study
//2cc
4 wild mongrel
4 daze
3 waterfront bouncer
2 aquamoeba
3 umezawa's jitte
//3cc
2 troll ascetic
2 intuition
2 squee, goblin nabob
//4cc
1 wonder
1 deep analysis
//5cc
3 arrogant wurm
//7cc
3 roar of the wurm
//Lands
4 tropical island
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
3 island
5 forest
4 wasteland
Card choices:

daze over FOW/circular logic:

Circular logic is far too slow and situational to be any good in 1.5. It is a counter that goes online turn 3 IF you have a madness outlet out AND IF you have a good amount of cards in the yard. Not very optimal imo. I tried force of will out, but it just seems to be bad in this deck, the card disadvantage hurt too much, when I felt daze could do very similar jobs better. Daze can almost always be played, no mana/madness outlet/other blue card needed.

Umezawa's jitte: very good in any deck with enough creatures to support it. It also does't cost too much mana, so the deck can afford to use it.

Intuition: Wonder, roar of the wurm, and deep analysis anyone? Can also get you squee, and even 3 dazes in a pinch. This prevents the deck from having potentially dead extra wonders.

Squee: I found this very good at supporting bouncers/aquamoebas/careful studies. Almost never had it sit in my hand useless. I am still not sure if it is good though, just an idea.

Troll Ascetic: Have this here to add to the low creature count. Has very good synnergy with the jitte.

Roar of the wurm. Helps you out towards the later turns of the game, so if your opponent wipes the board, you can just pop out a 6/6 flyer.

Idk, just a thought, not extensively tested.

[Lanfeng]

@Daze. It never works for me. force is always the zero mana counter to play. it is nessecary to beat out first turn threats like vials and lackies you need to have force of will because it is far superior in each and every way. daze can slow you down alot if you need to counter a vial first turn

[Galroth]

A quick question: I haven't played UG Madness is a heck of a long time, and never in this particular meta. What I'm wondering is why it isn't showing up in force?

Just from looking at the list I would guess it has a decent game against goblins. Gobblins has never been fond of any creature that can be bigger than a 2/2 and this deck packs alot! It has a great clock and enough counters to give most combo decks a run for their money, if it doesn't just send them packing. Against control I really don't know how it plays, but I can't imagine its bad. Considering how little control there is in the current meta I don't think it's that great of a worry. Against other random aggro UG Madness fairs quite well.

I have no clue how it plays against U/G/x Threshold, (they actually remind me of each other in so many ways). But I can surmise that if Pikula's deck, Deadguy Ale, becomes popular, this will be an excellent choice. Having played black disruption decks for many years I can guarentee Basking Rootwalla, Arrogant Wurm, Wonder, and Deep Analysis are the bane of discard.

It would seem to me that UG Madness has an excellent game in this meta, yet I didn't read about any sort of presence at Philly or in any other tournaments lately. Why isn't it around, am I mistaken in my thoughts? Please enlighten me.

[Don Juan-Suave]

UG Madness is definitely under-appreciated right now. It is a very solid deck and does not have an extreme dependence upon the graveyard.

The match against Gobins is not even that bad. Basking Rootwalla and Arrogant Wurm both serve as removals. Pithing Needle is also good for shutting down Aether Vial and Rishadan Port. Umezawa's Jitte is good, but it is alittle too slow for the deck.

Does the deck need a major overhaul? No. It just needs a card which takes the deck to the next level, like what Dark Confidant did for Suicide.

[threetonsflax]

I understand that this thread is about UG madness, but that's usually shorthand for an aggro-control build. There's currently a thread in developmental about UGR aggro-madness, but what about building UGR aggro-control? This does start to get closer to some NQG builds, but it potentially gives us access to some nice board control tools--Firestorm, Violent Eruption, Fiery Temper, Swirling Sandstorm (essentially a Wrath of God except for your Roar tokens). Perhaps this is a way to go?

[SpencerForHire]

UG Madness is definitely under-appreciated right now. It is a very solid deck and does not have an extreme dependence upon the graveyard.

The match against Gobins is not even that bad. Basking Rootwalla and Arrogant Wurm both serve as removals. Pithing Needle is also good for shutting down Aether Vial and Rishadan Port. Umezawa's Jitte is good, but it is alittle too slow for the deck.

Does the deck need a major overhaul? No. It just needs a card which takes the deck to the next level, like what Dark Confidant did for Suicide.
UG Madness is still bad. Threshold does the same things that UG Madness is supposed to do only better. Goblins still overruns your creatures and when you run out they are still pumping out more guys.

In general there are decks strictly better at the Aggro game and decks strictly better at the Aggro-Control game than UG Madness. Until Madness either gets a new tool or someone innovates something revolutionary that will make this deck outperform Threshold you might as well be running Mongooses and Druids instead. It DOES need a complete overhaul because the current way this deck goes around doing this is simply too slow and too slow. It is also quite slow.

[Lanfeng]

well actually i think that you are highly discounting madness right now. it is really good against hand disruption and fare 40-60 against other aggro b/c although it may not be really realy fast it can lay down some early blockers and block till the opponent runs out of gas.

Capitalization, please. Thanks. -Zilla

[Zilla]

I think your analysis of the aggro matchup isn't accurate. The most prominent aggro deck in the format is Goblins. If you're waiting for them to run out of gas, you'll be waiting a looooong time. You have absolutely no removal in this matchup, which means you have no way to stop them from copying Ringleaders with Kiki-Jiki and just going nuts on your face. Their clock is better than yours and their long game is muuuuch better than yours.

[Don Juan-Suave]

Blue Elemental Blast, Hydroblast, and Hail Storm are all valid removals UG Madness has against Goblins.

Propaganda can also help UG Madness race.

Yes, Vial Goblins can get the broken hand sometimes. But shutting down Aether Vial and preventing Goblin Lackey from connecting can be done. Without mana cheats, the playing field is even.

[TorakTwoEye]

@Don Juan-Suave saying that "assuming you can shut down the Goblins Deck's 8 best cards then the match is even is not that great. In fact it's not even good.
The problem with this deck is that it splits in too many directions. You dont commit enough cards to board-control to really control the board and you dont run enough creatures(12-15 at most, not counting Wonder) to power through removal. It's only a matter of time until, an Stp sends your outlet to the pasture or your opponet plays too many creatures and overruns you.

But wait, it gets even better! You rely on 8-9 very killable creatures to keep your deck fast enough to compete. Also the much over-rated ability to keep Mongrel alive vs. damage/burn is terrible since then you are -1, or -2 in card advantage against decks(READ: all other decks in Legacy) that are designed to gain CA. Giving them two cards is something you cannot afford.

Concerning Wonder: Wonder is not good enough to make this deck truly viable. Having 2-3 cards that say "I WIN" <<< having a deck thats multi-card synergy creates win after win

I've played this deck for 1.5 years in Legacy and since around Darksteel it has simply been out-countered, out-drawn, and out-aggroed time and time again.
I finally got wise and started playing Goblins, Gro and MWC.

To anyone still playing this Deck: I give you my respect. (Even though it is like the respect I give to the combatants at the Alamo, a stirring last stand that I was glad not to have been around for.)
Pray that the U/G Guild in Ravinca Block gives you some seriously good cards to make this deck good again.

[SpencerForHire]

Have I mentioned that this deck is like a bad Threshold deck. Your creatures are inferior in comparison, your counter game is worse and so is your aggro. You can't run the same generalized spot removal like Threshold unless you become threshold.

The issue with Madness is that all your cards require a catalyst while all Thresholds cards are the catalyst.

[Lanfeng]

Have I mentioned that this deck is like a bad Threshold deck. Your creatures are inferior in comparison, your counter game is worse and so is your aggro. You can't run the same generalized spot removal like Threshold unless you become threshold.

The issue with Madness is that all your cards require a catalyst while all Thresholds cards are the catalyst.
I dont see how this is comepletely true, madness has equivilants to thresh. the main difference between the decks is that one gets owned by graveyard hate and the other does not have acess to swords to plowshares and meddling mage. the fact that it loses access to white is what i think makes the deck worse but overall the aggro game is similar.

Wild mongrel=Meddling mage (which from days of yore was dryad)
Arrogant Wurm=Werebear
Roar+wonder= mystic enforcer (although roar is not always run)
naturalize=disenchant/pithing needle
aquamoeba=Nimble mongoose(sometimes)
Waterfront bouncer=really bad swords

Madness is not hated out by: Planar void, phyrexian furnace, tormods crypt, any graveyard removal

madness is hated out by spot creature removal that is capable of hitting a mongrel, moeba, or bouncer before the situation gets out of hand.


the counters are regrettably worse however

force= force
logic (Requiring an outlet sometimes)=counterspell and 2 dazes
then thresh still has 1 more daze and a disrupting shoal.

another thing is that Threshold is more resilient against WoG, where all they need is any creature in their deck to reapply pressure and madness need an outlet ready to start up again.

I really think that these decks are very close in comparison and it is possible for there to be a meta where Madness may be a better choice than thresh, it really depends in my opinion.

[troopatroop]

...In all of those comparisons you did, every single threshold side was better. Face it... U/G madness is not good anymore. With no more landstill it has lost it's hate capability. It's done.

The only metagame where Madness would be better is a Landstill infested one. That metagame shouldn't exist.

[Zilla]

For all intents and purposes, UG Madness is Threshold with less countermagic, less draw, and absolutely no creature removal. It also chokes if it can't keep a discard outlet on the table. Its only significant advantage is that it's less harmed by graveyard hate (although Deep Analysis and Wonder are still affected), but Thresh doesn't have that difficult a time shutting down graveyard hate with Pithing Needle, so even that point may be moot.

In terms of sheer synergy, card quality, and broadness in range of control,Thresh beats UG Madness hands down. I literally can't think of any kind of metagame where UG Madness would be superior to Thresh, though I admit I may be overlooking something.

[Slag]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest a few things that madness might be able to use. The first is the addition of opposition. As the deck has the ability to play out several quick, efficient creatures, but has trouble shoring up the late game, opposition might be what madness needs. It allows you to use your rootwallas or aquamoebas to hold off the baloth or colossus or whatever while your wurms swing. It also gives you a chance to tap out an opponent's creatures eot and alpha strike. In addition, it opens up the opportunity to run winter orb in the board against decks like wombat.
Beyond the that simple addition, madness could stand to be solidified so that it can have the best possible clock while disrupting the opponent as much as possible. That would mean cutting anything that doesn't kill someone or mess up their game plan. A suggestion in that vein would be adding man-o'-war. Man-o'-war serves both as a tempo burgalor and a creature at the same time. Granted, he costs three, but he always costs three, outlet or no outlet. Another idea would be to cut circular logic (gasp!) for a more consistant counterspell, like daze. While daze stinks in the long term, it can be played when you still want to spend mana to pump a rootwalla, or after getting crypted.

[Machinus]

I've played madness in every constructed format. I love the mechanic, and I have a lot of experience with it.

However, in Legacy, the deck isn't powerful enough. In order to have success with it, one needs to focus the deck on its strongest element - tempo. Madness can generate lots of tempo with it's key cards, and these need to be abused as much as possible. One problem the deck has is consistency, and therefore ends up playing at a regular speed against finely tuned decks.

So here is a new list for you to experiment with and think about.

TEMPO MADNESS

4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
3 Daze
3 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
3 Wonder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Patrol Hound
4 Aquamoeba
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island


There are some very important things to notice with this deck. There are 14 spells that cost 0 (11 if you don't count wonder). There are 12 spells that cost 1, and there are 14 spells that cost 2. That is the mana curve of the deck. This is, I think, the best advantage that Madness has, and it should be exploited as much as possible.

The deck runs StP, FoW, and Daze, which can control the early game long enough to get a madness outlet down. Brainstorm, six fetches, and Deep Analysis provide some draw power. Wonder is also good with 18 creatures. The ability on Patrol Hound is actually more revelant in this format than it has been anywhere else, since first strike dominates piledriver, wretch, ascetic, ftk, confidant, frogmite, etc.

This is basically a Fish deck, in that all your cards need to generate tempo in order for the deck to win. Winning the damage race with Wonder can only happen early on.

[www.win]

hm..how about adding some Jitte in the main deck?

[Machinus]

Yes, Jitte is a common addition to Madness. The biggest problem with Jitte is that against Goblins, it is too much of a tempo investment. However, if you don't play against Goblins, it's a lot stronger.

[laststepdown]

Jitte seems like an auto-include: it makes the Threshold matchup pretty much an autowin. Chang ran Jitte.

Run Jitte. That's my conclusion.
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84551&postcount=183
That's his list that won the Legacy Champs.

[www.win]

I was thinking about adding white splash into this deck....if there's a ugw threshold deck that rule the format, then there's should be a ugw madness deck that can just do the same.

White offers good discrad outlets like tirless tribe (1cc ), and patrol hound (2cc, and can block any golbin and survive if u have a card in hand). It also offers removal like sword to plowshares. It also offer glory for invasion ability.
For sideboard, we have worship and meddling mage...what do u guys think?

[Machinus]

Do you see my year old decklist like three posts up??

[Mirrislegend]

@Machinus: I like your list a lot. It covers many of U/G Madness's flaws. But in doing so, it opens up new ones. U/G Madness has Arrogant Wurm and sometimes
Roar to race with. Your list has none of that. It's the same problem as Fish has: the lil numbers in the bottom right corner just arent big enough. I must admit, your list is much better than the average Fish list as far as men-size goes, but it doesnt compare with Thresh's ability to lay down undercosted phat.

Also, it's not really a tempo deck until it's running Stifle. Which, by the way, I've been advocating everywhere, long before Chang ran them in his winning list.

[Machinus]

but it doesnt compare with Thresh's ability to lay down undercosted phat.

No version of madness can match the efficiency and consistency of Threshold.

All madness decks have a dangerous dependency on their madness outlets. If these can be stopped, the deck can't execute and is very weak. Roland only runs eight outlets, which I would have considered too dangerous last week. Attempting to minimize this problem (and increase consistency) requires more synergy and less power (decrease power level). I think it was risky for him to run his list, and he certainly had fortunate matchups. In an average tournament of that size, you are probably going to have to deal with Vials and Incinerators, which are insanely good against madness.

[Lukas Preuss]

As far as I understood, this is a deck that has a very bad Goblins matchup. Chang was very lucky to not face little green men both on the GPT he won as well as the Gencon Championship.

Can this really be a contender in the modern metagame if it folds to Goblins?

Just my thoughts on this, since &#220;bermadness has a positive Goblin matchup and uses the same ability (in a more broken way).

On the other hand, &#220;bermadness folds to (storm-)combo, this deck, being aggro-control, doesn't.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I'd rather scoop to Goblins than to Combo, personally.

[Tacosnape]

I'd rather scoop to Goblins than to Combo, personally.

A-fucking-men to that.

But seriously? The Goblin game isn't as awful as it looks here. Pre-board, Madness's creatures are -incredibly- difficult for Goblins to Fanatic/Incinerator their way through, there's enough countermagic to keep Matron/Ringleader out of your face, and getting a Jitte or a couple fast wurms can make it game over. Post board, Hailstorm and Blue Elemental Badass help (Anyone know if Chang boarded in Chalice or Needle in here? I'd think no to Chalice but yes to Needle.) Consider tossing extra Jittes in sideboard if you had a goblin-packed metagame.

[Lego]

But seriously? The Goblin game isn't as awful as it looks here. Pre-board, Madness's creatures are -incredibly- difficult for Goblins to Fanatic/Incinerator their way through, there's enough countermagic to keep Matron/Ringleader out of your face, and getting a Jitte or a couple fast wurms can make it game over. Post board, Hailstorm and Blue Elemental Badass help (Anyone know if Chang boarded in Chalice or Needle in here? I'd think no to Chalice but yes to Needle.) Consider tossing extra Jittes in sideboard if you had a goblin-packed metagame.

This post seems like it has been made without testing. Granted, I haven't tested this matchup since way back when Goblins was standard legal, but it tended to be ridiculously good for Goblins, to the tune of something like 75% pre-board. I'm sure it's not that great anymore, what with Jitte pulling some weight, but the UG Madness clock is abysmal when it has to leave back dudes for blockers and keep up counter mana, and Aether Vial does a number on you if it comes down Turn 1. What normally happened was that a good, aggressive Goblins player could put through a lot of damage in the early game, cost you a lot of cards creating and protecting your dudes, and then do the last few points over several turns before you could really get going again. The Madness deck quickly runs out of creatures/counters, while the Goblins player seems to have a lot more gas than you do, powering through into the late game while you're at precariously low life. I can't imagine that Wasteland is great for you either. I'd have to do more testing with up-to-date builds and competent players, but this doesn't seem great for Madness.

That said, this matchup may be irrelevant in many metas :smile:

[Zilla]

It's true that when UG Madness was popular in this format, Goblins just steamrolled it. That said, people weren't packing Hailstorm at the time, and Jitte hadn't been printed yet. It's theoretically possible that the addition of Jitte alone will be enough to turn the matchup around or at least make it relatively even... assuming you can survive that long. In any case, I think it'd be a good idea to actually test it.

[Tacosnape]

This post seems like it has been made without testing.

It was made with only about eight or nine games tested due to the fact that I fell asleep before I could do any extensive testing. I forget if I was like, 4-4 or 4-5 or 4-6 or what, but I know I won four games, three with Jitte and one without (It was a post-board one with Hail Storm). Stifle saved me one game from a Lackey and let me equalize with Mongrel/Jitte. A few games I just didn't draw the stuff I needed and got absolutely steamrolled. Hail Storm was a -monster- in this deck, since my opponent almost never blocked a Wild Mongrel swing when I had 3-4 cards in hand (And why should they? Mongrel can't race Goblins). This allowed me to maintain full aggression while Hail Storm kept things under control. Even the -threat- of a Hail Storm is influential.

I think in a Goblin-heavy Meta I'd definitely find room for another Jitte or two in maindeck or sideboard, especially since very few Goblin decks pack Pithing Needle anymore.

[Lego]

I think in a Goblin-heavy Meta I'd definitely find room for another Jitte or two in maindeck or sideboard, especially since very few Goblin decks pack Pithing Needle anymore.

I could see Jitte being a big factor in this matchup, sticking around to keep any creatures that you do topdeck into all that much better. Also, I was just talking about pre-board remembrances, as this was before I had really considered either deck seriously for Legacy, and Hailstorm out of the board seems like it could be pretty huge. Again, it requires you to keep your mana open, but I suppose Madness would be able to do this easier than Threshold. You're still going to lose to most of Goblin's broken starts though, and it doesn't seem great in theory.

Maybe we can test it sometime?

[www.win]

how about a white splash version (like the one showed before, it has sword to plowshare to deal with turn one lacky, or any other guys. And patrol hound, the one discard outlet that has first strike to eat any goblin), and plus Jitte. That should be enough for goblin right? Moreover, white splash version can have worship as sideboard, that would be a good card to side against goblin.

[Lego]

how about a white splash version (like the one showed before, it has sword to plowshare to deal with turn one lacky, or any other guys. And patrol hound, the one discard outlet that has first strike to eat any goblin), and plus Jitte. That should be enough for goblin right? Moreover, white splash version can have worship as sideboard, that would be a good card to side against goblin.

I'm honestly not sure why we're so single mindedly concerned with the Goblin's matchup, considering the recently prolonged metagame shift. But White also offers Meddling Mage.


And then we can add Nimble Mongoose and Werebear to replace Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla, and build a better cantrip-based engine.


Sorry, couldn't help myself. Seriously though, Meddling Mage seems boardable.

[www.win]

LOL, i didn't say anything about adding werebear and nimble mongoose.

[Zilla]

I'm honestly not sure why we're so single mindedly concerned with the Goblin's matchup, considering the recently prolonged metagame shift.
Just because Goblins isn't winning as much as it has in recent past doesn't mean it isn't seeing play. It was rampant at GenCon. A deck that prevalent should absolutely be a concern. You have to get past the first couple rounds if you want to make it to T8.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

if your deck can't deal with turn one Lacky in this format, you might as well not to play this deck...
[/color]

Ummm.. please never post again. That was terrible and full of useless information. You do realize there are other decks out there besides Goblins and that Goblin Lackey resolving does NOT mean GG, by any means. They drop turn 1 Lackey and I say it resolves. Turn two it hits me and they drop Ringleader. Turn three he drops warchief and swings in again. Turn 4.... oh woops Solidarity just went off in your face. Dude come on, please think before your post. there are SEVERAL decks that can win without answering to a turn one Lackey.

[Brushwagg]

I not sure if this is the right place for this, but it involves Madness. Here it goes. Has anyone considered adding Counterbalance to this archtype? I've been toying around with idea because,

1. It has a nice varied mana curve. It might need to be changed around a little, but it's a very good starting point.

2.It might help out some, but not all of the problem matches. I see it really giving Madness a better if not good Solidarity match (which it's not or at least it's been my experience). Goblins on the other hand would force you to run either Red or Black for removal, but I think that's a start of a new thread.

3.Madness can come out guns blazing fast, but can run out of steam. Having Counterbalance on the table can help make up for that. Before it was just Deep Anal, which can drop your life pretty fast, hoping to draw more threats or countermagic to keep your dudes on the table long enough to seal the deal. With CB it can provide a "floating" Chalice that only effects your opponent all the while you keep raining down with beats.

Just something to chew on. Anyone care to discuss?

[Aggro_zombies]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone been testing Vexing Sphinx in this deck? A 4/4 flying for three mana seems fantastic, and it gives you an additional madness outlet as well as a bunch of cards when it dies (assuming it doesn't bite it to a Swords). I probably wouldn't run more than two or three, but still, it's a hell of a guy to be passing up, especially because the discard can't be Needled.

EDIT: As for Counterbalance, I'm not so sure that's a good idea here, since you'd really need to add Top too and now you're starting to cut spaces in the deck dedicated to draw or whatever to make room for Counterbalance support. That said, however, I think it would be an interesting idea to have a sort of transformation control sidebaord for combo and control where you'd bring in Counterbalance 'n' friends for more denial.

[Shadow]

Ummm.. please never post again. That was terrible and full of useless information. You do realize there are other decks out there besides Goblins and that Goblin Lackey resolving does NOT mean GG, by any means. They drop turn 1 Lackey and I say it resolves. Turn two it hits me and they drop Ringleader. Turn three he drops warchief and swings in again. Turn 4.... oh woops Solidarity just went off in your face. Dude come on, please think before your post. there are SEVERAL decks that can win without answering to a turn one Lackey.

Let's change his post then:


if your deck can't deal with turn one Lacky or can't win by turn 4 in this format, you might as well not to play this deck...
[/color]

This is absolutely and completely true. There are soo many decks hated out of this format just by Lackey. If you disagree with this statement maybe you shouldn't post anymore.

[AnwarA101]

I played UG Madness this weekend at my local tournament. We had about 16-17 people. I was talking to Krieger the night before and told him that I would play UG Madness and he was like are you being serious? At the time I was just joking. Saturday morning I wake up late (like all Saturdays) and I try to put together a deck for my local tournament. I don't really feel like playing Iggy Pop or Red Death both of which I have built. I've played Red Death the two previous weekends both to a T8 finish (not much of a deal in 16 people tournies) , but the prize support is always a T4 split. Iggy Pop while being a good deck just isn't very good against Solidarity or Gro (both of which are in my meta). So I reach for Madness. Call me a sucker for aggro-control. I whip together Roland Chang's list and head off to the tourney.

Round 1 - Burn (younger kid, not registered)

Game 1 - I'm not sure what I'm playing against so I keep an okay hand. I play like a turn 2 Mongrel. He starts bolting me and such. I drop a couple of creatures and counter his last few burn spells.

Game 2 - Basically the same thing, but I don't get a clock very quickly. Its okay since my hand is full of counterspells. He runs out of steam and I play some creatures and beat him.

Round 2 - Solidarity (My Name is Scott)

Game 1 - I get some creatures down pretty quickly. I don't have very many counters, but clock ends up being quick with a Wurm. He tries to go off without High Tide? I'm not sure exactly here, but I force one of his spells and I think he is able to continue a little longer, but then fizzles.

Game 2 - I have a hand full of counters, but no creatures. I have brainstorm so I decide to keep it. I brainstorm, but don't find any creatures. I think turn 4 I play aquameoba and he tries to go off in response because he knows I have 2 Logics from his Peek. He plays like High Tide which I Force, he plays another High Tide in response, which resolves. He plays a Reset I think, and then Remands my Force of Will. Which is really quite bad because I hardcast Force of Will targeting his Hige Tide. He forces back. Plays a couple more spells. I Daze his Opt (he's almost out of mana) and then is basically out of untap effects and throws out a brainfreeze for like 24, I kill shortly after.

Round 3 - UGB Gro (Overlord95)

Game 1 - I mull to 6 with not much going on other than a Rootwalla and Jitte. He plays a cantrip on turn 1. I play Rootwalla. On turn 2, he plays Brainstorm and then plays Portent. I force Portent believing that he needs a shuffle effect and will be stalled otherwise. He says okay. I drop Jitte on Rootwalla and basically scoops from there as he has no answers.

Game 2 - I keep a good hand. I drop a Mongrel and then I get Wurm out which resolves. He has a Mongoose and Werebear out, but he's having trouble getting to Threshold. I drop a Tormod's Crypt which resolves. He ends up trying to Demise my Rootwalla at one point, but I crypt in response. I get another Mongrel, but the game is basically over.

Round 4 - Draw into Top 8

Top 8 - Deadguy Ale (nitewolf9)

Game 1 - This game was pretty interesting. He Duresses me taking a Daze. I brainstorm in response to his Hymn and try to protect my creatures. I get out a Mongrel which he has trouble dealing with. He gets out a Scroll which is bad for me because I have no main deck answer to it. But his hand isn't empty and he drops a Dark Confidant. I'm kind of worried here, but I keep swinging and is life total starts dropping. There is a key moment where I'm able to stifle his fetch to prevent him from getting white mana. He drops another Confidant which I'm fine with. I can't swing, but my opponent is killing himself. I think he took 4 damage one turn and then I stifle his fetch again (he lost 5 life just that turn). He decided to swing with both Confidants, but that didn't really help him as I didn't block and swung with my own Mongrel. He's too low on life to do anything basically and I win.

Game 2 - This game was over pretty quickly. I got a Rootwalla plus Jitte which killed all of his creatures. He had hyppie hitting me but with the Jitte it was just game over as he couldn't find a way to kill my Rootwalla.

We did a Top 4 split like usual. I played 8 games and didn't lose one. My first thoughts are that the decklist is solid despite its odd configuration of 2 ofs. It also seems to be very good against non-aggro decks (combo and possibly control?). I didn't play against Goblins and I imagine that matchup is horribly bad for Madness. The deck at times was inconsistent and it is horrible to have a Madness outlet that isn't Wild Mongrel (Aquameoba why aren't you better?). I'm not sure where to improve the list. You are limited to 8 Madness outlets and without them you often don't have much going on.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not sure where to improve the list. You are limited to 8 Madness outlets and without them you often don't have much going on.
I've also been working on Chang's list, and it seems interesting but waaay too dependent on the few madness outlets it has for me to be comfortable. Right now, I'm trying to fit Vexing Sphinx in there. How often did you hit double blue? I'm thinking the Sphinx would make a solid addition because it can discard madness / flashback cards and it beats for four, flying. And of course, madness has been confirmed by the Orb for Time Spiral, so I think it would be interesting to wait and see what that set gives us for this deck.

[AnwarA101]

I've also been working on Chang's list, and it seems interesting but waaay too dependent on the few madness outlets it has for me to be comfortable. Right now, I'm trying to fit Vexing Sphinx in there. How often did you hit double blue? I'm thinking the Sphinx would make a solid addition because it can discard madness / flashback cards and it beats for four, flying. And of course, madness has been confirmed by the Orb for Time Spiral, so I think it would be interesting to wait and see what that set gives us for this deck.

I can't honestly say how often I hit double blue since I wasn't really trying to get there. Sphinx seems interesting, but it might require a change to the list like maybe running 3 or 4 Deep Analysis as that would be very helpful in recovering from the card loss. This deck still wants to backup its creatures with counterspells because it basically has no removal (except Jitte). You have to be careful about not draining your hand too much with Sphinx and still trying to have a counterspell open. Sphinx is also a big problem with STP since you won't get the cards back when that happens.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can't honestly say how often I hit double blue since I wasn't really trying to get there. Sphinx seems interesting, but it might require a change to the list like maybe running 3 or 4 Deep Analysis as that would be very helpful in recovering from the card loss. This deck still wants to backup its creatures with counterspells because it basically has no removal (except Jitte). You have to be careful about not draining your hand too much with Sphinx and still trying to have a counterspell open. Sphinx is also a big problem with STP since you won't get the cards back when that happens.
Well, you keep Sphinx around for two turns (eight damage) and then let it die. Assuming it isn't hit with an StP in the interim, you get three cards upon its death, giving you card parity (almost...if you don't count playing the Sphinx itself from your hand). Additionally, it doubles as a madness outlet. Chang's deck has only eight outlets in the form of two different cards and no maindeck ways to remove Pithing Needle (assuming the deck can't counter). Being stuck without a madness outlet makes this deck sad, although the inability to discard at will like you can with Mongrel and Aquamoeba makes it less useful with Circular Logic. Still, it's a guy with a cheap cost, a way to pitch cards, and an attractively sized body to boot.

[AnwarA101]

Well, you keep Sphinx around for two turns (eight damage) and then let it die. Assuming it isn't hit with an StP in the interim, you get three cards upon its death, giving you card parity (almost...if you don't count playing the Sphinx itself from your hand). Additionally, it doubles as a madness outlet. Chang's deck has only eight outlets in the form of two different cards and no maindeck ways to remove Pithing Needle (assuming the deck can't counter). Being stuck without a madness outlet makes this deck sad, although the inability to discard at will like you can with Mongrel and Aquamoeba makes it less useful with Circular Logic. Still, it's a guy with a cheap cost, a way to pitch cards, and an attractively sized body to boot.

I agree that Sphinx might a reasonable option. Have you tested him? What cards did you cut for its inclusion? The forced discard and not having a Madness outlet at any time makes it probably worse than the other two, but on the bright side his evasion and 4/4 body might make it a much quicker kill.
I haven't really played Madness in a really long time before this past weekend so my experience is somewhat limited. I played Chang's list because that seemed like the most reasonable place to start.

[Bane of the Living]

I tried Sphinx in Über Madness for a short while. He is much easier supported by my deck thanks to Life from the Loam, yet I still found myself trying to keep up with his 'drawback'. He might be good as a two of, Im still not sure how I feel about him.

Meoba does suck, I dont like to play them in my madness build. Brushhopper ftw!

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree that Sphinx might a reasonable option. Have you tested him? What cards did you cut for its inclusion?
I've tested him a little bit but I haven't decided on how to fit them in there, and how many to use. Right now, I'm just doing -2 Daze, +2 Sphinx, but I'm still messing around with it. It's a very tight list.

[Goblin Snowman]

When I build UGB Madness, which just got better because of Withering Dark (Instant 4BB, Destroy target Creature, Madness B) He was the only 4 of Madness enabler in the deck. There was never a time when I went," Man I wish you were Meoba!" Even in top deck mode you hang on to him for a turn to draw 2, or Play him as a Blocker and draw an extra card next turn. If played with any acceleration they deal 8-12 Damage and draw 3-4. I'm using them over a little nonevasive noncard drawing 1/3 any day.

[Zach Tartell]

Why hasn't anyone thought about a black or red splash? White is fun, and STP and Meddling Mage are pretty hot, but aren't the other combonitions worth thinking about? How about somethign like this:

Creatures:
Aquamoeba x4
Wild Mongrel x4
Arrogant Wurm x4
Wonder x2
Anger
Basking Rootwalla x4
Roar of the Wurm x2

Disruption:
FOW x4
Circular logic x4
Daze x2
Lightening Bolt x3
Firey Temper x3

[red build land]:
Wooded foothills x4
flooded strand x2
Tropical Island x4
Volcanic island x2
forest x3
island x3

Draw:
Careful study x3
deep analysis x3
Intuition x2

SB:
Naturalize x3
Pyroclasm x3
Waterfront Bouncer x2
Tormod's Crypt x4
Guilded Drake x3
(I realize that this is kind of weak, but I'm not very good, yet.)


(Black build would be three of the new hotness creature kill and three ghastly demise's. But I like the red better, on account of you could toss a couple pyroclasms in the board to deal with goblins. I dont' think they can get around that well, and your Moeba, Wurms, and Mongrels (with one card) would live through it.)

Now, I'm a new hand to Magic. I got my start playing a UGR grow deck against Mike Herbig's Solidarity like last march. So I went kind of crazy and bought cards for it, ending up with a UGRB build (the black is only Ghastly Demises and confidants) but this isn't really important. My experiance is limited, but and what little I have pertains mostly to Gro.

Why is everyone only talking about 2 colors? What makes the gro decks so awesome is that they have such flexability, the power to answer any problem. For goblins, you have pyroclasm; for control, Armageddon (white build, which is better anyway); mages for EVERYTHING; and fat creatures that are hard to kill without a full wipe. Why not make madness like that?

1. -Gro has like a million counters (usually 10 or 9)
2. -Gro has cheap, almost-too-good creatures who beat effeciently
3. -Gro has a "finisher," either the Fledgling Dragon or the Mystic Enforcer
4.-Gro has draw, and lots of it
5. -Gro can work on very little mana

1. -Madness has four always hard counters, and then six wishy-washy ones
2. -Madness has creatures you can play as instants, for just a bit more than your usual gro aresenal
3. -Madness doesn't need a finisher. With wonder you're flying over everyone anyway, and the Wurms cost 1 less than either of Gro's biggest guys, and have trample. No firebreathing/pro-black will have to be addressed later.
4. - I dont' know what to tell you. Aside from Careful Study, which only really cycles the madness cards out of your hand, and the Deep Analysis, which kills you pretty handily, there isn't much. I don't like brainstorm in this deck, and I'd only play it because it can shuffle away the cards you need. I feel naked with out my predicts, serum visions, and mental notes, but this will have to do.
5. -Madness can work on little mana, too. And (the three+ color builds aside) is far less vunerable to wastelands.

I realize that my deck is 3 cards over 60, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. You drill through the deck, anyway, so you'll draw into whatever you need, anyway. If I could trim it down, I'd like to run 2-4 Stifles, and 1-2 misdirections. Misdirection has saved me more than once. (point stroke back at solidarity, knock the orim's chant back at a UGW gro, cranial extraction) I wish I could fit more cantrip in here, but I dont' see where.

Help, please. I'm all ears.

[Goblin Snowman]

I like the Black build because of Tog, Zombie Infestation (rapes goblins BTW) and Plague Spitter in the board for more hate. I just have things against Aquamoeba, like it being far less powerful than Sphiex, albit easier to cast.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like the Black build because of Tog, Zombie Infestation (rapes goblins BTW) and Plague Spitter in the board for more hate. I just have things against Aquamoeba, like it being far less powerful than Sphiex, albit easier to cast.
Do you have a list? I'd be interested to see what your build is.

[www.win]

As far as I think, the best way to use Sphiex it to give it haste. Splashing red might not be that bad of a choice. For example, on second turn, you drop Mongrel, discard Anger, swing for 3. On third turn, Sphinex come into play and swing with Mongrel, that's 7 more damage. Just along with Anger, Sphinex can deal 12 damage at the price of 3 cards in 3 turns.

And btw, the new card from Time Spiral:

Conflagrate - XXR
Instant? (U)
Conflagrate deals X damage divided how you choose among any number of creatures and/or players.
Flashback: {R}{R}, Discard X cards (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

Is this card going to be another good reason to splash red in this deck?

[SillyMetalGAT]

As far as I think, the best way to use Sphiex it to give it haste. Splashing red might not be that bad of a choice. For example, on second turn, you drop Mongrel, discard Anger, swing for 3. On third turn, Sphinex come into play and swing with Mongrel, that's 7 more damage. Just along with Anger, Sphinex can deal 12 damage at the price of 3 cards in 3 turns.

And btw, the new card from Time Spiral:

Conflagrate - XXR
SORCERY
Conflagrate deals X damage divided how you choose among any number of creatures and/or players.
Flashback: {R}{R}, Discard X cards (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

Is this card going to be another good reason to splash red in this deck?

I dont think this card alone is worth a red splash, as it only works as a madness outlet once. If red gains a permanent madness outlet though, this card would certainly be an inclusion.

[quicksilver]

I dont think this card alone is worth a red splash, as it only works as a madness outlet once. If red gains a permanent madness outlet though, this card would certainly be an inclusion.

What about jaya ballard, or whatever her name is, that new card that let's you do nutty things by discarding, that's a pretty good red madness outlet.

[Happy Gilmore]

The card your referring to suffers from the same problem as Waterfront Bouncer and Merfolk Looter, it doesn't have haste. Not to mention that the mana, 1RR, can be prohibitive (assuming you are still running Wasteland).

[SillyMetalGAT]

The card your referring to suffers from the same problem as Waterfront Bouncer and Merfolk Looter, it doesn't have haste. Not to mention that the mana, 1RR, can be prohibitive (assuming you are still running Wasteland).

This is partially true. She could work, but it would need testing. Shes an amazing card for the entire game. She does go down to needle, but so doesn't every other madness outlet.

[Happy Gilmore]

This is partially true. She could work, but it would need testing. Shes an amazing card for the entire game. She does go down to needle, but so doesn't every other madness outlet.


Dont get me wrong, she isnt bad. Far from it, but UG Madness doesn't focus on discarding cards anymore like it did in Ext and T2. Discard is only to get the bigger creatures in the deck out quickly. And to take advantage of a certain (U) counterspell.

In reality there are only 8-12 cards in the deck that can really take advantage of her. 2 Wonder, 2 Deep analysis, 4 Basking Rootwalla, and possibly Circular Logic. Arrogant Wurm isn't realistic when you think about the fact that you will be spending 3GR for him.

What I want is a 2cc red creature...some thing like this

Unknown

1R

Discard a card from your hand: Unknown gains protection from blue and from white till end of turn.

2/2

yea...something like that would make me sooooooooo happy. too bad it will never happen. :rolleyes:

Ooooo, or even a blue creature with the same ablility, just red and green instead of blue and white.

:tongue:

[aznfoodgood]

I was just looking around for the thread and I found it =D

Any ways, it sounds like you guys are looking for a replacement for aquamobea

In the red version, have you though about hell-bent rider < seems like quite the answer to your problems, although it is a 3 drop…

I’ve been testing a version with white but its hard to tell if it really is better then threshold because a lot of the cards are similar yet madness is more conditional, relying on an “outlet.” Any ways, hears the list and some reasons why cards were included, not included

And so I give you the decklist
Creatures
4 basking rootwalla
4 wild mongrel
4 patrol hound <- YES!!
4 arrogant wurm
3 meddling mage
2 wonder

Counters
4 circular logic
4 force of will

draw
4 brain storm

spot removal
4 swords to plowshares

awesome…
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

mana base
4 tropical island
3 savannah
3 tundra
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 forest

side board
4 honorable passage look this one and I think you will laugh
3 blue elemental blast
4 naturalize
4 jotun grunt


card choices
4 basking rootwalla at 1/0 mana hes on obvious choice, taking down opposing watch wolves and threshold mongooses, he earns a spot in this deck. Also becoming a late game 3/3 beater makes him a not bad top deck

4 wild mongrel: every one loves the dog, hes a 2/2 grizzly bear that can avoid dark banishing and terror wile also getting +1/+1 when ever you discard, an all around good card, I would run 8 if I could

4 patrol hound: the lesser know dog, getting first strike allows him to combat angle stompy’s knights and trade with them, also his discard ability makes him only 2nd to wild mongrel

4 arrogant wurm: a 4/4 trample for 5cc is mediocre but a 4/4 trample for 3cc is beats. Probably the main man in most of my wins. Casting at instant speed makes wurm a great card, playing him at end of turn if there are no counter targets. Also a great late game beater, no one hates a 4/4 =D

3 meddling mage: allows you to stop combo in its tracks as well as being able to pitch to force if will makes this card very powerful. Mage is a good control card but is also a 2/2 body, and that should not be overlooked. Early in the game it is a strong card but off of the top deck, it stops late game fatties from hitting the board

2 wonder: I was thinking about playing more but I really don’t know. Wonder has always found a spot in madness, being the most powerful incarnation that is not mana intensive. It can also double as a 2/2 flyer

counters
4 circular logic: always a viable counter because if your graveyard size and at 1cc its far better then force spike could ever be. Although it is dependent on having a madness outlet, it is a very strong counter once you have one in play.

4 force of will: ha ha ha, I don’t think I need to explain this one. Probably the best counter in the game. No mana and the only requirement is having a blue card in your hand. That’s okay by me

draw
4 brainstorm: better then careful study because it digs deeper and is an instant. Also you do not have to discard cards, witch this deck does not do very well. The lack of deep analyses and roar of the wurm makes this card less valuable

spot removal
4 swords to plowshares: best spot removal in the game. A 1 cc card that takes all but the most hardy cards down. The trolls and the mongooses must be countered

awesome
3 jitte: yes this deck does harness the power of jitte and uses it to great success. Jitte allows for mid to late game board pressure and is great in most creature decks (not counting goblins or affinity)

Mana base:
Week against wasteland but aren’t most 3-color decks that way? Some basics supplement this but are probably not sufficient

Why not red? Well simply because they are 2 completely different aspects and give you many different cards. White gives the deck mage as well as swords. Red gives anger and violent eruption. I came to the conclusion that white would be better only because the red version would require more mana beats (as it is more aggressive) the white version would play more like and agro control deck.

Sideboard
Mostly meta intensive. Lots of globins in my area and combo is lacking. Joten grunt allows you to beet threshold and blue elemental blast gives you 7 swords to plowshares against goblins. Also honorable passage protects against price of progress


Cards that are not included
Aquamobea- patrol hound is just better and although you can discard it to force of will, 17 blue cards is enough to run it, I believe the cut off is 16

Wasteland- I am a ware that the jecon winning madness played 4 of these but I think mana fixing is more important

Roar of the wurm- a great late game card but just to mana intensive. Usually this deck curves out easily at 3 and possibly 4 for jitte. Roar of the wurm is a very powerful card but I believe that it is relying to severally to be discarded.

Careful study- to slow, no synergy and a million other reasons, this will not be an argument of careful study vs. brainstorm, it is very pointless.

Deep analyses- for much of the same reason as roar. At 4 mana for 2 cards, this card is terrible, its flash back means you must pay 3 life and 2 mana and I have found this, along with the fetch lands, to be very life intensive, most times costing me 5 points of life per game.

Geniuses- a powerful late game engine but it has now room in a deck like this. Hard casting it means that shit hit the fan. And at a 4/4 for 5, its more meh then good.

Lions eye diamond- great in explosive versions that splash red, but not hear. LED can work as an outlet but most times it gives you devastating card disadvantage. Off of the top deck, it makes you want to cry…

Waterfront bouncer/ merfolk looter: I hate tap abilities, they are non aggressive and somewhat stupid. Bouncer is to mana intensive and looter will probably end up with a huge hole in is head before he can tap for anything. This deck focuses on early beats with cheap and effective counters

Daze- threshold likes this card but I don’t. With lots of tempo drawbacks, this card just sucks really bad and off of the top deck it makes you want to cry, almost as much as LED. Although it is not mana intensive, I just don’t see the point in running it, circular logic seems much more powerful

Just my 2 cents

-food

[Tacosnape]

Why would you run Patrol Hound, which can only swing for 2 a turn, over Aquamoeba, which can swing for 3, especially if you're running Force of Will and get an added benefit from any card in your deck that's blue?

The first strike seems far weaker than having the superior clock, the Force backup, and a creature than can do sneaky combat tricks, like dealing 3 damage, then switching back to 1/3 with damage on the stack.

EDIT: In fact, Aquamoeba's far superior to Patrol Hound at dealing with Angel Stompy's knights. It can kill a Knight and live where Patrol Hound can't. Moeba/Mongrel should be more than sufficient for this.

[Eldariel]

EDIT: In fact, Aquamoeba's far superior to Patrol Hound at dealing with Angel Stompy's knights. It can kill a Knight and live where Patrol Hound can't. Moeba/Mongrel should be more than sufficient for this.

Eh, what? Aquamoeba can never kill a Knight. First-strike damage is assigned before it deals any damage, if you flip it after that, it finds itself with 1 toughness and 2 damage and is killed before it deals any damage, and if you flip it before that, it just dies. First strike>Aquamoeba, although your point still stands.

[aznfoodgood]

The fact is, patrol hound is better against the vast majority of the creatures. how well does aquamobea do against knights? All it will do is absorb damage, where as patrol hound will at least eliminate apposing knights. Also, can aquomobea block pile driver? The answer is… no. you must trade a more valuable creature for pile driver while patrol hound easily strikes first and kills what ever attacking goblin there is. While it is true that aquamobia is slightly better the patrol hound against thresh, as it can take down nimble mongoose, that is only 1 match up where I see it better. Other wise, the damage clock doesn’t seem to be relevant. Aquamobea is a conditional 3 damage where as patrol hound is consistently beating for 2. also, how does aquamobea do against regenerating creatures? oh that’s right, it just sucks.
Because of all of the reasons given, patrol hound is far superior to aquamobea
and the fract that it can be discarded to force of will is no big deal becuse of the 17 bluce cards you are running.

[coyoteuglly]

Hi all. I'm new to this fourm but have some experience in Legecy. I've only played two tournaments. But both of those tournaments I've finished 3rd in playing U/G Madness. The first one being approx 35 people the second won with 53 players. The current list I'm running is:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamobea
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arragont Wurm

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windsweapt Heath

Sideboard:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Deep Anaylsis
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Hail Storm
2 Wonder
3 Chalice of the Void

Yes the main deck is only 58 cards. No Circular Logic is not in the list. I've honsetly never really been happy with that card. It doesn't do enough in the early game when I want it to, hence the Spell Snares and Dazes.

There is a tournament comming up in about two weeks. I'm expecting mostly IGGY, UGW Thresh and Goblins. I feel good about the Thresh and Goblin matchups. The IGGY matchup... not so much. So I figured I would ask all you fine folk for advice on helping me fix my 58 card deck by adding two cards that smash IGGY. I'm not to worried if there dead aginst other things or not, just as long as the make IGGY cry.

[lukatron2]

You should actually feel pretty good about your Iggy match-up with 4 MD Stifles, Force of Will, and Daze. Also you have tormad's crypt and challice in the sb...With those cards combined, I'm pretty sure you should smash Iggy Pop. you could add a fourth daze or I'd say throw the 2 wonders back because they help with your other match-ups

[Brushwagg]

Well this really isn't the place for this, but I think Planar Chaos gave us are answer for the Red splash in Reckless Wurm. There's really 2 ways to go from here. You can still go aggro-control or full on aggro (I'm currently testing both). It really depends on how you want the deck to play. But adding Red will force out Wasteland, but that shouldn't be to big a deal.

The problem that U/G or U/G/r needs to address the most is the Goblin match. Since it is the most popular deck and you will play it. Without finding a solution to Goblins then I don't think this deck is viable. Which is a shame, because I really like Madness alot.

[coyoteuglly]

Well this really isn't the place for this, but I think Planar Chaos gave us are answer for the Red splash in Reckless Wurm. There's really 2 ways to go from here. You can still go aggro-control or full on aggro (I'm currently testing both). It really depends on how you want the deck to play. But adding Red will force out Wasteland, but that shouldn't be to big a deal.

The problem that U/G or U/G/r needs to address the most is the Goblin match. Since it is the most popular deck and you will play it. Without finding a solution to Goblins then I don't think this deck is viable. Which is a shame, because I really like Madness alot.

Personally I don't think that splashing for Reckless Wurm is all that good. I would actually really like to cut an Arragont Wurm... the problem being there is nothing else I can actually think of to go in that slot. I tend to board one out alot of the time.

With my list at least I'm currently 3-1-1 aginst Goblins in tournaments. I havn't actually done any play testing though. The matchup in my opinion really comes down to who plays the tightest. The Hail Storms in the board help a ton. I'm not going to say it is favorable, or 50/50. But, it's definitly not the lost cause everyone seems to think it is.

[troopatroop]

Personally I don't think that splashing for Reckless Wurm is all that good. I would actually really like to cut an Arragont Wurm... the problem being there is nothing else I can actually think of to go in that slot. I tend to board one out alot of the time.

With my list at least I'm currently 3-1-1 aginst Goblins in tournaments. I havn't actually done any play testing though. The matchup in my opinion really comes down to who plays the tightest. The Hail Storms in the board help a ton. I'm not going to say it is favorable, or 50/50. But, it's definitly not the lost cause everyone seems to think it is.

It's not a lost cause, but it's most definitely not 50/50. It's been proven, time and time again, that U/G madness pales in comparrison to the degenerousy of what goblins does. You just get rolled. When I'm playing goblins, there are few matches I'd rather have than U/G madness. I don't see anything in that list to say to the contrary.

Especially the red sideboard cards.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Anyone test Piracy Charm as a foil to turn 1 lackey? Its got some other minor uses such as a crappy discard outlet or to make one of your creatures unblockable against thresh.

[nitewolf9]

Piracy charm can also make iggy cry, if that's what you are still looking to do...

[coyoteuglly]

Honestly hadn't even though of it... Damn Wizards for screwing up the color pie.

[coyoteuglly]

Been testing with Piracy Charm. So far the results are positive. It's normally not amazing, but is rarely dead, you can normally always find something to do with it. Either killing a Goblin Lacky, pumping for the last couple damage, or acting as a single shot Wonder for one of your guys, randomlly blowing out Iggy Pop, or acting as a Discard Outlet for an Arragont Wurm or getting Wonder in the bin.

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamobea
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Arragont Wurm
1 Wonder

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spell Snare
2 Piracy Charm

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windsweapt Heath

Sideboard:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Deep Anaylsis
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Hail Storm
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Wonder
1 Something (open to suggestions on this)

[Lanfeng]

I've been kind of toying around with the idea of greenseeker in madness for a while, it might make an extra splash pretty easy or play the role as an uber fetchland. I don't have any specific testing to back this up but its an idea.

[Tacosnape]

This might be a bizarre suggestion, but I've begun liking Sandstorm in this sideboard. Over Hail Storm, I think. For a single mana, it kills off Unthreshed Mongeese and Bears, unsuspecting Shades/Confidants, Goblin Lackey, and most importantly, the 12-14 Empty the Warrens tokens that every combo deck and his dog seems to generate on turn one. It also works amazingly well with a 1/3 Aquamoeba to pick off all kinds of 2 toughness guys like larger goblins, Silver Knights, Meddling Mages, and so forth. All for a single green, which is incredible as nobody suspects Sandstorm. (Cast it and watch reactions. I've had people go "Who the (fill in expletive) runs Sandstorm?!" and then disconnect. I'm aching for the real life equivalent.)

Also, it's come in handy against random things like Decree of Justice, and 6/1 (A deck with four Ball Lightnings and four Groundbreakers.)

[coyoteuglly]

Just figured I would swing by and update my deck list for any that might care:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Fathom Seer
1 Wonder

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windsweapt Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
2 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

4 Hail Storm
3 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Hyrdoblast
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Samshire]

Just figured I would swing by and update my deck list for any that might care:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Fathom Seer
1 Wonder

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windsweapt Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
2 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

4 Hail Storm
3 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Hyrdoblast
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt

I see 1 card in that decklist that has madness, and one madness enabler. Are you still allowed to call the deck madness if it just runs Basking Rootwalla?

[noobslayer]

My only question would be is how has fathom seer been treating you? Seems hit and miss.

[coyoteuglly]

I see 1 card in that decklist that has madness, and one madness enabler. Are you still allowed to call the deck madness if it just runs Basking Rootwalla?

Well the problem is that Goyf is simply flat out better than Arragont Wurm, making him obsolte. Which in turn makes you not need to run Aquamobeas. Which were always slightly underpowered. I'm not going to run worse cards just to keep a deck name. This is simply the natrual evolution of the deck. I also don't think it is worth it to run Circular Logics and keep Mobea without Wurms.

Basking Rootwalla on the other hand is simply to amazing not to play.


My only question would be is how has fathom seer been treating you? Seems hit and miss.

Fathom Seer so far has been really solid vs everything. He is similar to Aquamobea, just much more versitle. Yes he can't crash for 3 every turn... but I think that the card draw makes up for it.

He is good aginst Goblins because you can play him as a 1/3 for 2 early for a blocker aginst everything but Piledriver. Late to midgame you can play him as a morph and to gain card advantage. Also on the play aginst Goblin Lacky you can run him out there on turn 2 and not have to worry about Gemplam Incenerator, bash with Lacky.

Aginst everything else he speeds up your clock by either attacking for 2, giving Mongrel +4/+4, and nets card advantage. It is like Gush that can attack and block.

He also has a nice bouns of protecting your Trops aginst Wastelands.

The biggest thing though is that he gives the deck real card draw. Something I think the deck has been missing for a long time. I never liked Deep Anaylsis because you never want to pay 3 life to flash it back vs aggro decks. And I definitly never wanted to spend 4 mana on it vs anything.

[JCteam_ripio]

FNM + UG madness = :smile:, here is my list:

Creatures:
4x Wild Monger
4x Aquamoeba
4x Basking Rootwalla
2x Wonder
1x Genesis
4x Arrogant Wurm

Spells:
4x Circular logic
3x Deep analysis
2x Gift ungiven
3x Roar of the wurm
4x Careful study
2x Umezawa's jitte

Lands:
4x Wasteland
3x Flooded strand
3x Wooded foothills
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Centaur garden
4x Tropical island
3x forest
4x island

SB:
3x blue elemental blast
3x spell snare
3x pithing needle
3x Krosan grip
3x Ravenous baloth

[Gheizen64]

Isn't Intuition better than GU in this deck? Putting 3xRoar or 3xAnalysis and costing 1 less than GU should make it the better choiche IMHO.

[JCteam_ripio]

It's true that Intuition is better than GU but There is a difference between Gifts Ungiven and Intuition. Gifts Ungiven has you search for cards with different names, where Intuition has you search for any three cards. Because there is a not a stipulation on what cards you must search for with Intuition, you must find three cards if there are at least three cards in your library. Sometimes you just GU for Wonder and attack with flying wurms FTW

[nightmaster]

What ever happened to Waterfront Bouncer? To me he seems like he is too slow and him not being in many of the most recent lists confirms that. Anyways, what can replace him in those two slots? If you stick with bounce there are three options:

Snapback- Can be played for free
Rushing River- Can bounce two different targets
Echoing Truth- Stops ETW goblins and zombie tokens in Ichorid

Or if you want more permanent control there are some good options:

Threads of Disloyalty- Cheaper and takes things like Tarmogoyf
Control Magic- More expensive but can control any creature
Treachery- Most expensive but costs nothing if it resolves

What do you think would be the best choice?

[zulander]

Why do we need bounce? If you opponent plays a creature you simply tutor up a wonder and swing for the win correct?

[nightmaster]

Well, not everyone runs tutors in there deck.

[FN Bryan]

This is my deck... it has served me pretty well in the past

Creatures:
4x Wild Monger
4x Aquamoeba
4x Basking Rootwalla
3x Wonder
4x Arrogant Wurm

Spells:
4x Force of Will
3x Mox Diamond
3x Daze
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
2x Umezawa's jitte

Lands:
4x Wasteland
2x Flooded strand
2x Wooded foothills
2x Polluted Delta
2x Windswepth Heath
4x Tropical island
3x forest
3x island

SB:
3x Hail Storm
3x Propoganda
3x Pithing Needle
1x Krosan grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Chalice of the Void

[nightmaster]

Have you missed Deep Analysis at all?

[FN Bryan]

not at all, i find those to be to slow and to painful. i just recently took out 4 logics for the 3 diamonds and another daze and i like the speed it has now. either daze with no drawback first turn or second turn arrogent wurm with daze back up.

[zulander]

Here's the madness list that I'm going to start testing.

Mana: 22
4 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest

Beats: 21
4 Basking Rootwala
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Arrogant Wurm
4 Aquamoeba
2 Wonder

Control: 10
4 Force of Will
3 Circular Logic
3 Stifle/Daze

Draw: 7
4 Careful Study
3 Deep Analysis/Intuition

Sideboard: 15
3 Daze/Stifle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Jitte/EE

I still haven't decide on whether go with intuition or deep analysis. My gut is saying intuition though, since you can search for the wonder you need to win. The turn one land/mox mongrel/moeba enable the turn 2 swing of 3 + arrogant wurm. I like chrome mox much more than mox diamond in here because I only run 18 lands, and I'd hate to have to mulligan with a mox/land in hand, and the fact that the curve of the deck is at 3 so you can easily curve out on turn 2 and any extra land is great for playing your counters/instant draw(in the case of intuition). I also cut 2 Jitte 1 wurm and 1 wonder in favor of 4 tarmogoyfs because they're amazing in regular decks, but their even better in decks that give him flying.

I think I will test the stifle's in the main due to the lack of great combo matchup cards in the deck, against control I'd probably bring in the 3 daze for the stifles, but it depends on what the control deck is playing.

[DURESSyou92]

if your gonna play deep anal the you might as well play LEDs and roar of the wurm. And maybe find some other good flacsh back spells

[from Cairo]

Is synergy with Rootwalla and Roar/DA enough to rationalize Careful Study over Brainstorm?

I can understand it in dredge based decks since they need the cards in their GY and go off by getting the needed cards in the GY. Plus any form of draw turns into dredge providing additional resources to push them deeper through the deck and generating more Narcomoeba's / Bridge tokens / Dread targets. And late game Studies serve as a means to generate effects equaling massive board advantage, so they don't suck as top decks.

I mean in the above situations, Rootwalla and flashback cards, the Madness player wants to be discarding too, but it seems like a horrible card to top deck, and it's sorcery speed leaves it out of the question for combat tricks. It seems like Brainstorm's ability to dig for counters, protect you from discard and couple with shuffle effects for huge card quality advantages would outweigh Careful Study's abilities.

[nightmaster]

Ya Brainstorm is just more consistent and safer to use than Study.

However, I was wondering what the current matchups are like since the first page is several years old. If anyone happens to know what they are it would be great if they could post the matchups. These are some of the matchups that would be important right now.

Goblins
Threshold both White and Red Splash
Survival
Landstill, UW and UR
CRET Belcher
Ichorid Combo
42 Land

Also as a SB option what do you think of Ground Seal?

[Sharp]

To me it looks like Madness may be having a comeback since I remade the deck recently and ran it in a few tournaments that were heavy aggro and the results seemed pretty positive. By putting countertop in the deck it has more of a chance against aggro decks then it has in the past. Also with the addition of goyf the deck has a low mana cost beatstick and it speeds up the clock.

My deck list looks like this but it is still being tweaked to fit the format better.

Beats: 20
4 Aquamoeba
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Arrogant Wurm
1 Wonder

Control: 13
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance

Draw: 6
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Mana: 21
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath

Some feedback or suggestions for the deck would be good.

[chokin]

With 7 cards that rely on the Madness mechanic, do we need Moeba? I mean, G vs 0 for Rootwalla(chump and pump on Mongoose is hot during combat, but still...)

I'm not sure how I feel about CB Top here. I think more countermagic(Spell Snare, Daze, Stifle) may do better.

Jitte helps aggro matchups. Your combo matchup should be good with Force, Daze, and Stifle (and maybe Spell Snare). Control might be tough, but it's close IMHO.

This deck is similar to Thresh in my books. It helps to be able to get some card draw instead of filter in this deck since Mongrel is one hungry puppy, but maybe Jace could solve this?

Just ideas.

[slyfer]

This is the lastest build of UG that made some results in Italy (2 wins and 1 top8 in tournament with at least 40 people)

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tropical Island
5 [U] Forest (3)
4 [ST] Island (1)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FNM] Basking Rootwalla
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [PT] Man-o'-War
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [US] Back to Basics

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [AL] Hail Storm
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast

You can see the lack of removals like others UG builds, the "shell" of threshold with cantrips/counters. The big plus is survival.
It's clear that once survival is out you have a big boost. The 1x naught could be something else, like genesis for example.
I also don't like the 2x Back to basics maindeck, I consider it a sideboard card. I think the 2x Jitte could be more effective in those slot, so I would swap them in, and leave the 3x back to basics in side as a bomb vs 3color (threshold) or 4c (landstill).
I think the future of the deck is with the use of one (or both) of these two cards:
1) survival of the fittest
2) intuition
They both enable a little toolbox of creatures. If you develop the build with intuition only, you can get a deck very similar to "Tarmotog" (see specific topic), and at that point the question would be "which is better?"
If you develop with both cards engine (4 intuition 4 survival), you will see that you have not room for counterspells. The result has already been made, and the result is a list like this (made some top8 also some months ago).
List of september 2007:

4 island
5 forest
3 tropical island
3 savana
4 windswept heath

4 birds of paradise
4 wild mongrel
4 basking rootwalla
4 arrogant wurm
3 roar of the wurm

4 careful study
4 intuition
4 survival of the fittest
2 deep analysis

4 sword to plowshares
3 naturalize
1 squee
1 wonder

sb:
4 chalice of the void
4 blue elemental blast
4 orim's chant
2 krosan grip
1 ray of revelation

You see, no counterspell, but directly the solutions in the form of sword to plowshares + naturalize. Simple. Plus intuition is a bomb, can grab everything. Birds reasons is twofold: survival engine and acceleration for the high cost cards (generally roar and deep, but also arrogant if you cannot madness it).

[Shtriga]

not so bad, though it's a big step away from what madness decks used to be (and used to suck for the past year or 2), towards survival and thresh

[Sharp]

I definetly like the idea of survival being in the deck but it can still be madness I mean these variations still operate off of mongrel. I think the lack of control with the white splash decklist is a little too risky though, I mean what would the deck have against combo?

[mercenarybdu]

I recently posted a deck review on this prototype a few weeks ago on Roland's B-day on my 6th blog on youtube under

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gPeJTtc_Rw

It maybe most of Roland's plan with some mods here and there I try to explain to the best of my abilities what it was all about.

I've made so many variants of this deck already.....

Roland's plan:
-allied fetchlands
-logics
+mods (Sword of F/I is one of them)

4 Tropical Island
6 Forests
6 Island
4 U/G Fetchland (when it becomes avaliable)

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
2 Wonder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Deep Analysis
2 Jitte
2 Spellsnare

No SB

[Media314r8]

Has anyone else tested looter il-kor in place of aquamoeba? a 3/3 (or 1/3 as often is the case) is not as hot as it used to be, and looter carries jitte like a champ. I understand being able to discard the turn he comes into play is nice, but how often do you have 5 mana open to play him and a wurm? (right into a daze) Lists are cutting logic across the board, and IMO that was the reason to play him, but is looter superior now that we have forsaken logic?

Also, DA is seriosuly cuts. Grabage vs gioblins, ok vs thresh, but slow. So often I wish it were ANYTHING else. I'm going to test 3 intuition, 3 jitte, 1 wonder, 1 roar, and 1 genesis instead of my current
3 jitte
2 roar
1 wonder
2 DA
1 ???

[kiwi]

Like every deck with green this deck is stronger with tarmogoyf.


For me the decklist (if your metagame is full of combo you can include stifle) is that:



// Lands
3 [IA] Island (2)
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [IN] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Basking Rootwalla
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
2 [TO] Aquamoeba
4 [TO] Arrogant Wurm
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [FNM] Deep Analysis
3 [FNM] Circular Logic
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[Sharp]

Overall there is enough early beat in the deck with the mongrel and goyf so I really don't think that looter is a logical choice. Many madness decks only run 8-10 madness cards and if you want to activate them with the looter you can't really use them as combat tricks which is really important with the deck's lack of removal in the first place.

[mercenarybdu]

Has anyone else tested looter il-kor in place of aquamoeba? a 3/3 (or 1/3 as often is the case) is not as hot as it used to be, and looter carries jitte like a champ. I understand being able to discard the turn he comes into play is nice, but how often do you have 5 mana open to play him and a wurm? (right into a daze) Lists are cutting logic across the board, and IMO that was the reason to play him, but is looter superior now that we have forsaken logic?

Also, DA is seriosuly cuts. Grabage vs gioblins, ok vs thresh, but slow. So often I wish it were ANYTHING else. I'm going to test 3 intuition, 3 jitte, 1 wonder, 1 roar, and 1 genesis instead of my current
3 jitte
2 roar
1 wonder
2 DA
1 ???

The looter aint that great as it tends to slow down some of the deck when it comes to brute force. Although you are gaining more cards there are always disadvantages to the card as the first always has to do with blocking.

But anyway more or less the card isn't that good as I haven't seen any high finishes with that card in this prototype.

[Happy Gilmore]

I played UG thresh all the time back before Thresh was around, I think at this point though it is striclty worse than thresh with one exception: Wonder.

There are only a couple of builds that I feel that someone can justify over just simply playing Threshold. Here is one that I have never tested but I want to throw around for consideration.

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Wonder

3 (Some combination of Krosan Grip/Wipe Away/ Rushing River)
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Deep Analysis
4 Daze
4 FoW
2 Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
4 Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

The big things are NO Arrogant Wurm, NO Aquameaba, NO Circular Logic. Circular logic has always been a weak point of the deck, ever since I started playing it back in the old (1.5). It was a luxury item, good only when an outlet was on the board, and only if there was a :u: open. The madness creatures have been outclassed in every way, and if not for Rootwalla costing :0: I would probably cut him as well. UG madness wins when one of two things occurs. Either Jitte is online or Wonder is in the Graveyard. UG madness' susceptibility to Counterbalance alone is an issue, and running Arrogant Wurm is not a solution to the problem. I think the best purpose for Wild Mongrel (and Careful Study) is to make sure that some cards get into the graveyard, even if they are distroyed. I replaced Aquameaba with Careful Study and I know that may seem strange. Both fill the same purpose, but Careful Study also draws two more cards for less mana.

As I said before, I have not yet tested this build. However the list fixes a lot of the issues I had with it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Wear Away

I certainly hope you mean Wipe Away. Wear Away is just awful.

EDIT: most of these new lists could probably go -1 Land +1 Breeding Pool. I think Extirpate has established itself enough to at least consider it.

[Happy Gilmore]

I certainly hope you mean Wipe Away. Wear Away is just awful.

EDIT: most of these new lists could probably go -1 Land +1 Breeding Pool. I think Extirpate has established itself enough to at least consider it.

Yea, that is the one I meant. And who cares if they play a card like extripate on your Trops, that means you will be drawing even more gas from your deck. Also, a person who extripates your lands when Deep Analysis, and Wonder are available are morons. Don't weaken the mana base, its unneccessary. I have yet to see Extripate do a damn thing in legacy.

[Isamaru]

What about placing Sygg, River Cutthroat into UG Madness? Is he too weak if you're not already winning?

[Pltnmngl]

I'd hate to necro a thread like this, but my friend is getting back into the deck. Has anyone updated their list lately?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Madness seems worst then Thresh, are their any redeeming qualities?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Threat density and a more stable manabase. Also Wonder.

[Mirrislegend]

The big things are NO Arrogant Wurm

Isn't Arrogant Wurm the whole reason to play this deck? It's almost completely worse than Thresh without him.

Also, am I the only one who's taken to fitting 4 Stifle into blue based aggro control just like 4 FoW?

[AramiilNaiilo]

Alright, first off I know I'm brand new to this forum so you folks may not take me seriously, but I ask that you take a look at my list anyways b/c you may just like it and see some use in its design. That being said here's the list and an explination of the cards will follow.

Lands [21]
2 Forest
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Creatures [19]
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Looter il-Kor
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Arrogant Wurm
2 Wonder
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
3 Roar of the Wurm
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Explosives

Alright, we'll start with the lands. For the most part I figure they're pretty self exlpainitory with fetch lands for tempo basics for the needed mana slots Trops for color fixing and wastelands to take out opponent nonbasics to hinder their curve. I favor one more island over a forest b/c there are slightly more blue spells than green ones.

Creatures are pretty obvious as well I'd think Mongrel is a decent beater with the discard outlet to pump him and as an activation point to pump him. Looter is probably the one that some of you will question out of the list, but it's actually great for increasing the tempo of the deck and madness activation. The Rootwalla and the Wurm are staples of the madness deck, idk what else to say about them. Goyf is in b/c he's a great beater, but I thought that a 4th would get too in the way of the madness mechanic and I don't see myself getting a hold on a 4th one any time soon so that's why there are only 3. Wonder is another classic of UG madness and a rather nice little combat trick since there aren't many answers to your army gaining flying and going in for he kill.

Now for the other spells; Brainstorm just all around awsomeness as defence against early game discard spells, used as a dig for counterspells, madness cards, etc, and in general an amaizing card at :u:. FoW is just what it is, if you run blue you should have it. Spell snare has been put in to replace Circular logic b/c Logic is only good if you have a discard outlet most of the time and Snare hit any of the millions of :2: drops in the format. Stifle is a versitile diruption card for affecting combo/mechanic pieces or as mana denial early game to stop an opponents fetchland and gain a larger tempo advantage. Roar of the Wurm may be questioned by some of you but feeds into the tempo base of Looter and creates a 6/6 for :3::g: which makes for a strong finisher and beats Goyf in most occasions.

Finally the sideboard; Pithing needle is a common replecement for stifle for me against combo/mechanic based decks like Painter and and Survival based decks as well as other random combos. Tormod's crypt is there mainly to stop graveyard based decks such as ichorid/dredge and can be used to interfere with threshold and Aggro Loam decks. Krosan grip comes in over naturalize b/c it needs no protection to destroy an artifact or enchantment do to split second. Blue elemetal blast is for all the annoying agressive red decks like goblins, burn, etc. Engineered explosives was added as a way to take out the opponents permanents while trying to spare mine and is a relatively new addition to the board and doesn't have a lot of testing to it. The idea was to have it to take out the higher mana cost permanents in decks like aggro Loam and rock variants. Also it could be dropped to take out all the tokens generated by ichorid/dredge.

That's all she wrote folks so comment away and I hope you like what you see b/c I plan to take this to Gen Con this year.

[hugh1130]

i think daze gets the nod before spellsnare in this list

[mercenarybdu]

a playset of daze still takes the cake.

Spellsnare is an alright card, but remember that it only blocks out only one kind of card rather than many strategicly...

[Jak]

I saw that this thread was revived so I really thoughtabout my old deck. Now, I never used it competatively because I never had the manabase finished but I have tested this deck a ton on MWS, updating it once in a while.

My love for this decks comes from the ability to switch roles like none others. Well, I wouldn't call it switching roles, but playing both at the same time. Being able to play most of your threats at instant speed allows the deck to leave mana open to counter whatever you please. I personally have always run Counterspell because of this.

3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba (Sometimes 2 Waterfront Bouncer)
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Circular Logic
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB
2 Trygon Predator
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast

I would definitely run Goyf... if there were 4 open slots. It would definitely make the deck more aggro oriented which isn't necessarily bad, but I prefer the deck to be controlling and then drop multiple, flying creatures.

[hugh1130]

I saw that this thread was revived so I really thoughtabout my old deck. Now, I never used it competatively because I never had the manabase finished but I have tested this deck a ton on MWS, updating it once in a while.

My love for this decks comes from the ability to switch roles like none others. Well, I wouldn't call it switching roles, but playing both at the same time. Being able to play most of your threats at instant speed allows the deck to leave mana open to counter whatever you please. I personally have always run Counterspell because of this.

3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba (Sometimes 2 Waterfront Bouncer)
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Circular Logic
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB
2 Trygon Predator
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast

I would definitely run Goyf... if there were 4 open slots. It would definitely make the deck more aggro oriented which isn't necessarily bad, but I prefer the deck to be controlling and then drop multiple, flying creatures.

goyf is almost always better then arrogant, so thats and easy switch if you had the gofys handy. i personally think that the advantages gofy has over the wurm are greatly out weighed by its current 150-180$ per playset pricetag.

I am not sure i am sold on the white splash for StP though, jitte is probably better served being given a spot in the MD, as well as a stifle/wasteland over the counter-spell. 18 lands seems low in my mind for madness, i have always found that it like the 21-22 number in land count in general

[Jak]

Instant speed 4/4 Tramplers are not bad at all. I wouldn't cut any of the madness guys to add goyf. The only reason to play this deck over Threshold is because of instant speed creatures.

Jitte and StP are really different. One can deal with a horde of goblins and one can deal with a 12/12. One can take out Dark Confidant and one can take out a Tarmogoyf. StP is just so much more flexible.

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

I would cut a few Aquamoeba's to keep Arrogant wurms

[Happy Gilmore]

Isn't Arrogant Wurm the whole reason to play this deck? It's almost completely worse than Thresh without him.

Also, am I the only one who's taken to fitting 4 Stifle into blue based aggro control just like 4 FoW?

Why in gods name would you play a card that costs 5 or even 3 for a 4/4 when a Tarmogoyf is both bigger and cheeper? There is no reason to play Madness over Threshold, none. The only arguement I can see is for the power of Wonder. Besides that there is nothing in the deck that Thresh can't do better.

I say this coming from experience, I'm not just shooting down the deck on a whim. I've been trying to bring it back since old 1.5, and even then it was underpowered and didn't do all that well. I've only seen one person perform well at major tournaments with UG madness and he is the king of all top deckers.
Garvy...I salute you.

[morgan_coke]

This is an intentional mega-necro.

Zendikar has spoiled quite a few new cards that, combined with my experience playing madness in pauper where the newer madness cards are heavily utilized, has made me think that this deck has a good chance to make a comeback.

The deck faded out because there was literally no reason to play it over threshold. However, I think that has started to change recently, in large part due to the prevalence of countertop and chalice in the format. Due to the madness mechanics cc reducing measures, madness is uniquely suited to take advantage of decks relying heavily or in part on counterbalance as a control measure.

The printing of enemy fetches has also done an absolute TON to reduce the chronic manabase problems this deck has always suffered from. Finally, Madness has both instant speed creatures and free recurrable creatures paired with mana acceleration, something many other blue aggro control decks lack.

A proposed list:

Madness outlets:
4x Careful Study
4x Putrid Imp
4x Wild Mongrel
2x Waterfront Bouncer/Looter il-Kor/Merfolk Looter/Survival of the Fittest

Free Beats:
4x Bloodghast
4x Basking Rootwalla
3x Wonder

Random Awesomeness
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Counters
4x Force of Will
4x Circular Logic
4x Daze

Draw
4x Deep Analysis

Mana
4x Chrome Mox
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Marsh
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Sideboard
4x Dark Withering
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Thoughtseize
4x Relic of Progenitus

There isn't any Brainstorm, Wasteland, Stifle, or Tarmogoyf. Brainstorm is out because given the amount of chaff you have to pitch in this deck, it's worse than Careful Study. Wasteland doesn't make the cut because 2 mana on turn 1 is a better play in this deck than destroying somebody else's land, plus, given off color fetches, wasteland is far less effective than it used to be. Stifle goes away in favor of the Daze/Logic package because Stifle is far less effective as a tempo card when not paired with Wasteland. Daze also has some nice interactions with Bloodghast that Stifle lacks.

Tarmogoyf is easily the most controversial cut, but he goes away because he doesn't work as a madness outlet like Mongrel/Pimp/etc, and he costs mana, unlike rootwalla and bloodghast. Plus, you can fly over him with Wonder.

There are so many fetches so that you can Landfall back your Bloodghasts as an instant. This makes them significantly harder to gravehate on and means they always have sort-of haste, even if your opponent has more than 10 life.

This deck is very aggressive, it's curve starts at zero and stops at two, but thanks the the madness mechanic, it can function very well under an opposing CB lock.

Grudge is in the sideboard over Ray of Revelation because artifacts like Crucible/Shackles/Vial are a far greater threat to this deck than enchantments like counterbalance.

In short, the reasons to play this deck over threshold are:
1) Has mana acceleration.
2) Has recursive creatures.
3) Is not shut down by CB lock or Chalice @ 1.
4) The creatures have evasion.

I am in no way saying this deck is better than the many varieties of Threshold, just that it might be a reasonable alternative again.

[Silent Requiem]

I have always liked madness, and I would really like to see the deck make a comeback.

I note that you are splashing black, and I wonder if it would not be better to stay UG. We need strong, consistent starts, and I would want to strengthen my mana base. Of course, we could still play bloodghast.

-Silent Requiem

[Blitzbold]

Splashing Black without considering Big Game Hunter to fight enemy Goyfs -which WILL be met- can't be right.

However, I liked Madness when it was actually playable as a tournament deck and I am curious wether this archetype could be revived a little bit.

[Silent Requiem]

At the risk of maximum ridiculousity, would Foil be a better fit with this deck than FoW?

Although we also have to pitch an island, we are discarding, rather than exiling, which means we can play madness cards. These cards do not need to be blue, either. And finally, we can hard cast Foil a turn earlier.

Thoughts?

-Silent Requiem

[Infinitium]

Not unless you fit in Life from the Loam somehow (which granted might be a good idea considering Mongrel/Ghast etc, although without ways to tutor for it it's merely cute). Actually, even with LFtL it's probably a horrible idea as it hurts you mana development something fierce if you want to cast it early (as it's intended to).

EDIT: Proposition?

19 lands

Outlets:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Survival of the Fittest (Feels just about right and allows for silver bullets postside. Also allows the list to cut down on Wonders, which imo aren't strong enough in multiples)

Beats:
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bloodghast
4 Tarmogoyf (too good to cut as is)

Tricks:
1 Wonder
1 Big Game Hunter (Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauders might be better with Genesis. Fleshbag in particular has good synergy with Bloodghast and occupies the 3cc spot.)
1 Genesis (with Survival)

Other:
4 Brainstorm/Careful Study (I can see why Study might be better, but I remain sceptical)
4 Circular Logic
4 Force of Will
3 Deep Analysis

[Tacosnape]

Above list needs more Quirion Ranger/Cabal Therapy. Quirion Ranger's insane with the Survival/Rootwalla engine, and it's insane with Bloodghast, allowing you to trigger them at will. Therapy's awesome with Bloodghast and multiple Rootwallas.

Also needs more discard/Zombie Infestation/Squee and less blue. Like, no blue.

Blue isn't the color you want in Madness anymore. Aquamoeba is terrible under M10 rules. And if you're going UG, you really should just go Threshold. Black offers a lot better tools now.

[Silent Requiem]

I am not sure your build is moving in the right direction. Madness rocks because we are not paying full cost for our creatures/spells. This makes us harder to predict, but more importantly, helps us play through counterbalance. Your list does not build on this advantage. Here are some examples.

You say Survival of the Fittest allows us to play fewer Wonder. However, Survival (cc 2) walks right into Counterbalance, whereas Wonder walks straight through it (cc n/a or cc 4).

You play Goyf over Wurm, but Goyf (cc 2) walks into Counterbalance, whereas Wurm walks through it (cc 4).

Madness is not thresh, and trying to be thresh is why Madness is not played competitively. We have to build on our own, unique advantages if we want to succeed.

Edit: Tacosnape's idea of playing GB Madness rather than UG may be the way to go.

-Silent Requiem

[kicks_422]

The reason to play UG Madness isn't the countermagic or draw or the madness enablers - I really think it's because of Wonder. A 4/5 Goyf can't do anything about 4/4 Wurms and 3/3 Lizards flying over him.

I've been rocking a budget version in MWS and it's been performing well. Not format-breaking well, but good enough for a budget deck against regular Legacy decks. What I've learned from it is that Wonder rocks (I play the full 4), 12 madness enablers are golden, and Madness as an aggro-control deck should be played more as aggro than control.

[morgan_coke]

I can see the argument for cutting down on the blue in favor of more black, and even the argument for eliminating the countermagic suite altogether (not that I'm saying i'm in favor of it, just that i understand the argument) but I don't think cutting blue completely is a remotely good idea. At minimum, the deck really, really, really wants Careful Study and Deep Analysis.

I also agree that this deck should be played significantly more aggro than threshold.

Big Game Hunter isn't on my list, because I rather embarrassingly forgot about him. Finally, I think if you're going to run Survival, you definitely cut down to a singleton Wonder, but don't go overboard on the engine, Survival + Bloodghast + Wonder + Rootwalla + Big Game Hunter is pretty much good enough on its own without needing to go all Squee and whatnot. Not that Squee himself isn't a decent card in this deck when you can constantly re-discard him for bonuses.

Finally, this is probably getting too techy, but does anyone think Bridge from Below might find a limited home in this deck? It does amazing things when you can discard it instant speed to make the 'Goyf blocks on your Bloodghasts into token generators. It also works as a madness-able Caller of the Claw for zero mana. Probably too narrow, but I think its worth discussing at least.

[Infinitium]

You say Survival of the Fittest allows us to play fewer Wonder. However, Survival (cc 2) walks right into Counterbalance, whereas Wonder walks straight through it (cc n/a or cc 4).


So you've just resolved a 2/2 for 4 against a softlock that shuts down any conceivable support you can give it as well as having the digging ability to find pretty much any answer it pleases. Yay.

@Taco: Quirion Ranger isn't efficient by its lonesy though (especially without mana creatures), and without a dedicated survival toolbox I can't really see what we should spend the mana on (except flooding the board with creatures, but an active Survival is usually an indicament that the deck in question is winning anyway). Also I do have a hunch fetchlands and the general lategame drawing power should be enough to trigger Bloodghast plenty enough. What would you cut for Therapy? I can see it working instead of Force of Will (what with only 16 blue cards and all), but otherwise the only truly cuttable cards are probably Rootwalla or Tarmogoyf (or Genesis, but Genesis adds some serious attrition in the lategame and is quite the synergistic card otherwise).

[coraz86]

@Taco: Quirion Ranger isn't efficient by its lonesy though (especially without mana creatures), and without a dedicated survival toolbox I can't really see what we should spend the mana on (except flooding the board with creatures, but an active Survival is usually an indicament that the deck in question is winning anyway). Also I do have a hunch fetchlands and the general lategame drawing power should be enough to trigger Bloodghast plenty enough. What would you cut for Therapy? I can see it working instead of Force of Will (what with only 16 blue cards and all), but otherwise the only truly cuttable cards are probably Rootwalla or Tarmogoyf (or Genesis, but Genesis adds some serious attrition in the lategame and is quite the synergistic card otherwise).

Besides Taco's Survival-related points, Quiron Ranger also allows you to be a little more aggressive; you can swing with a guy, then untap him so he can also block. There's also a lot of fun mana-production tricks you can do (since Ranger doesn't require the returned Forest to be untapped). Your list doesn't have a lot of fat in it, so you need to make the most of each guy on the table.

I think I agree that you'd be better off going G/B. If you really want Wonder, drop a couple duals in and one Wonder to Survival for. Check here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235334&postcount=56) and here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216565&postcount=20) for some examples of Island-less madness decks that are some good and look entertaining. Obviously you don't need/necessarily want to parrot what other people doing, but it's interesting to see the directions other people have successfully taken the deck in.

[Infinitium]

With the unbanning of Entomb, could that possibly go in instead of Survival for those sweet sweet tutoring effects? Getting Wonder/Bloodghast/DA into the bin are all decent plays, and it enables that singleton LftL to go with Cephalid Coliseum as another CA/Madness enabler. Cutting Survival + Genesis/Shriekmaw gives plenty of room to implement those cards. Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I suppose Cabal Therapy just became pretty retarded.

19 lands

4 Putrid imp
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodghast
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm/Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
1 Life From the Loam
3 Deep Analysis
4 Circular Logic

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
10 Whatever

Circular Logic seems kind of weak when not backed up by FoW. Cut for Roar of the Wurm and a few more lands mayhap? Or perhaps cut the Rootwallas and Tarmogoyf (!) for additional disruption? 1/1's for 0 aren't all that impressive nowadays anyway, and Bloodghast seem much better by comparison.

[owenzzz]

I strongly suggest to include vengevine rather than bloodghast. just add maybe cloud of faeries. possible 2nd turn combo. cast mongrel/ discard vengevine then rootwala and poof. vengevine is in play and ready to attack. hehehe. What you think. you can also add some free crit spells (cloud of faerie to increase the effect. :)

[Vacrix]

This guy looks too slow, but he does find creatures and allow you to discard them to play madness costs.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106878&d=1277957032

[cseraph]

It doesn't play Circular Logic =(

However, it does fit into the G/B madness deck, which just keeps getting better and better relative to G/U.

[edgewalker]

No vengevine? I think he would be perfect for this deck.

[swarm187]

I've built a weird list that combines the ideas of this thread with Intuition/Thresh build that also has a thread on this forum. My build plays more like this one, so I decided to post my opinions here.

I have to agree with edgewalker, Vengevine is an absolute killer. Running Intuition for 3 Vengevines, getting one in hand and two in the bin, then pitching the one in hand to a Mongrel/P-Imp/O-Prowler and getting all three for free is pretty ridiculous...especially since it's all at instant speed.

I've also tried to throw in CounterTop as a control element, but I'm not sure if that takes away too many relevant spell slots. Does anyone have an updated list for UG Madness, or better yet, BUG Madness?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've built a weird list that combines the ideas of this thread with Intuition/Thresh build that also has a thread on this forum. My build plays more like this one, so I decided to post my opinions here.

I have to agree with edgewalker, Vengevine is an absolute killer. Running Intuition for 3 Vengevines, getting one in hand and two in the bin, then pitching the one in hand to a Mongrel/P-Imp/O-Prowler and getting all three for free is pretty ridiculous...especially since it's all at instant speed.

I've also tried to throw in CounterTop as a control element, but I'm not sure if that takes away too many relevant spell slots. Does anyone have an updated list for UG Madness, or better yet, BUG Madness?



Yeah, I'm also contemplating reverting back to the BUG Madness days, since that's the deck from which I started, and I still love it dearly. The trouble is keeping it all at 60 cards, and deciding what to take from black. Here's what I've been kicking around (61 cards):

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
3 Circular Logic
3 Daze
3 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vengevine
4 Big Game Hunter
3 Wild Mongrel
3 Putrid Imp
2 Basking Rootwalla
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede


As you can see, however, there are a few questions of balance. Intuition and Loam are powerful engines in this deck, and you really want to use them to abuse Cephalid Coliseum. Big Game Hunter serves as your only removal (since not too many creatures will prove problematic for you), and can be used to power out Vengevine--the only trouble is that sometimes it'll destroy a Vengevine as well.

I've also been toying with introducing more tempo elements (Ssnuff Out and/or Submerge, mostly), but we'll see. For the time being, my sideboard looks something like

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Submerge
2 Blue elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast

[swarm187]

Goaswerfraiejen- I think we're shooting at the same target, although our lists are pretty different. Here's what I've been testing:

3x Basking Rootwalla
3x Putrid Imp
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Vengevine
3x Wild Mongrel
1x Wonder

4x Careful Study
4x Circular Logic
2x Deep Analysis
4x Force of Will
3x Ghastly Demise
3x Intuition
1x Life From the Loam
2x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Swamp
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Polluted Delta
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland


Like I said, this is the list I am testing right now. My meta is largely Goblins, Enchantress, Loam builds, and CounterTop variants so I kept those in mind when designing it.
I agree with you, Goaswerfraiejen, there are so many options for this type of build, I feel like I need to test a bunch of different stuff to find the optimal list.
My main issue is cutting things like Tarmogoyf back to a 3-of, when it should be an auto 4-of. As it stands I am incredibly light on removal, which I don't like. Ghastly Demise is pretty strong, but is it better than cards like Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict? I'm not so sure.

I feel like Careful Study is a must in this deck, as it usually pitches some strong Madness/Thresh cards like Wonder, Vengevine, and Basking Rootwalla on your first turn. I also think Bloodghast has a chance to be a real all-star in this deck, but I'm not sure what gets cut for 3 of them. The inevitability of Bloodghast is something I think this deck could really benefit from, especially with the Life from the Loam/Intuition strategy already built in.
I really like the versatility that Loam brings as an Intuition target. I feel like it's a strong addition to the Thresh/Madness strategy without taking up too much room. I NEED to fit Cephalid Coliseum in here, but I feel like Volrath's Stronghold deserves a maindeck slot as well. I think I may axe the Ghost Quarter, even though it seems to fit the deck well.

As far as the sideboard is concerned, here's what I have right now. Take into account what my meta is largely made up of:
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Krosan Grip
3x Trygon Predator
4x Chill


I feel like, overall, my build needs more card draw/library manipulation. In testing, I've come across several times where I felt like I really needed some more cards in hand. I thought about Brainstorm, Impulse, and Ponder, but I just didn't know what to cut to fit those in. The obvious choice is Pulse, but those are so strong against any type of aggro/token generation, I feel like they deserve to be there.
I think I might take them out and test those slots as card draw, maybe completing the playset of maindeck Deep Analysis. What about Obsessive Search replacing Deep Analysis completely? Do I have enough sac outlets to support those spells? Thoughts?

[AggroSteve]

i would prefer the deep analysis obsessive search is not really good, and i agree the pulse really are strong, but since i am not a madness-player i do not really know, i think it misses instant-carddraw other than intuition, why not adding 2 cyclelands if you allready are playing life from the loam as intuition target, and there you have your draw, i would cut the stronghold and the ghoust quarter for it, but i do not think that brainstorm, ponder, or impulse are the right cards for this deck

cephalid colliseum is anothe option thats for sure, but i think the cycle lands will do the job just fine

so now i will shut my mouth which does not know a enough about this deck anymore to blabber pseudo-intelligent stuff, and i'm going to bed
bye
PS: but i wish madness to become a strong competitive deck again

[swarm187]

Is anyone running Dark Withering in their sideboard? Obviously I wouldn't play them alongside Ghastly Demise, but if I take those out, DW might be an option.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

My main issue is cutting things like Tarmogoyf back to a 3-of, when it should be an auto 4-of.


Don't sweat it. Ideally, we rely on flying stuff anyway. Find room if you can but, if you can't, I wouldn't worry about it. I'd rather cast Mongrel on turn two or three with Madness anyway.


As it stands I am incredibly light on removal, which I don't like. Ghastly Demise is pretty strong, but is it better than cards like Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict? I'm not so sure.

I think that Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to other options open to this deck. Since we don't run towering giants like KotR, Terravore (incidentally, it would be feasible), Tombstalker (also feasible), or Progenitus/Iona/Dreadnought/etc., those are real points of concern. We can fly over most creatures and easily block mid-range creatures, so the concern is with larger stuff. I've opted for BGH for that reason, and because it helps me to get my 'Vines, but I think that Snuff Out or Edict are the only other real options for the deck. I would hesitate over Innocent Blood, since we don't really have any creatures that we want to have to sacrifice.

Given that mana is pretty tight, I'd say Snuff Out is actually probably a great choice. Withering Grasp is out of the question because unless you're discarding it, you won't be casting it. Ghastly Demise is similarly narrow, since it misses artifacts as well as black creatures and is graveyard-dependent. Our opponents are guaranteed to bring in graveyard hate post-board, and if that nullifies our removal, that's a big problem.



I feel like Careful Study is a must in this deck, as it usually pitches some strong Madness/Thresh cards like Wonder, Vengevine, and Basking Rootwalla on your first turn.

Careful Study is a good option. I think it should be tested in a cantrip slot, though, rather than in addition to the cantrips. The danger, of course, lies in focusing too much on diversifying Madness-enablers and then having nothing to do with them. Not that we're approaching that danger quite yet. The downside to Careful Study is pitching things too soon (like Wonder), or leaving yourself with less to bring back Vengevine. I think I'll test them in Ponder's slot, myself (Brainstorm fits the Madness and Loam gameplans better, I think, and so should stay).




I also think Bloodghast has a chance to be a real all-star in this deck, but I'm not sure what gets cut for 3 of them. The inevitability of Bloodghast is something I think this deck could really benefit from, especially with the Life from the Loam/Intuition strategy already built in.

Yeah, I think that the choice is between Bloodghast and Vengevine, really. Running both looks to me like more of a cute trick than an effective plan of action, especially since they'll both suffer from the same deficiencies (mostly graveyard hate). What I like about Bloodghast is getting more mileage from our lands; what I like about Vengevine is its bigger body and its consistency (perma-haste).




I NEED to fit Cephalid Coliseum in here, but I feel like Volrath's Stronghold deserves a maindeck slot as well. I think I may axe the Ghost Quarter, even though it seems to fit the deck well.


I tinkered with Stronghold and Genesis both, but ultimately cut them to make room for other stuff. I decided that between Gigapede and Vengevine, that was probably enough recursion for most games, and Coliseum helps to balance out the creatures that I find. The unfortunate reality is that Stronghold is a land that produces colourless mana in a deck that has few lands to spare already. With three basics, three Sandbars, and Wasteland, mana is already a tight affair for me. For you, I think you might find that Stronghold works better without Ghost Quarter. We will only rarely Waste-lock an opponent: usually, Wasteland serves simply as man- or utility-land removal. GQ makes that plan stronger, but I think it's to the detriment of the rest of the deck.

Like you said, though, I think that Coliseum is a must. It's the best part of running Life from the Loam, really.




I feel like, overall, my build needs more card draw/library manipulation. In testing, I've come across several times where I felt like I really needed some more cards in hand. I thought about Brainstorm, Impulse, and Ponder, but I just didn't know what to cut to fit those in. The obvious choice is Pulse, but those are so strong against any type of aggro/token generation, I feel like they deserve to be there.
I think I might take them out and test those slots as card draw, maybe completing the playset of maindeck Deep Analysis. What about Obsessive Search replacing Deep Analysis completely? Do I have enough sac outlets to support those spells? Thoughts?


I don't think you should get rid of Pulse either--Pulse (or some other mass removal) is exactly what my build lacks, and I've been feeling the pain of it. Try running Brainstorm instead of Deep Analysis (you probably want to tinker your way up to three or four). You'll conserve mana (and life, but the mana is more important), and you'll find it works well with Life from the Loam. The lower our curve and the more consistent our manaflow, the more slots free up!


Well, those are my thoughts. Hope some are helpful and, if not, just chuck 'em back out the window. I won't mind.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

My main issue is cutting things like Tarmogoyf back to a 3-of, when it should be an auto 4-of.


Don't sweat it. Ideally, we rely on flying stuff anyway. Find room if you can but, if you can't, I wouldn't worry about it. I'd rather cast Mongrel on turn two or three with Madness anyway.


As it stands I am incredibly light on removal, which I don't like. Ghastly Demise is pretty strong, but is it better than cards like Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict? I'm not so sure.

I think that Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to other options open to this deck. Since we don't run towering giants like KotR, Terravore (incidentally, it would be feasible), Tombstalker (also feasible), or Progenitus/Iona/Dreadnought/etc., those are real points of concern. We can fly over most creatures and easily block mid-range creatures, so the concern is with larger stuff. I've opted for BGH for that reason, and because it helps me to get my 'Vines, but I think that Snuff Out or Edict are the only other real options for the deck. I would hesitate over Innocent Blood, since we don't really have any creatures that we want to have to sacrifice.

Given that mana is pretty tight, I'd say Snuff Out is actually probably a great choice. Withering Grasp is out of the question because unless you're discarding it, you won't be casting it. Ghastly Demise is similarly narrow, since it misses artifacts as well as black creatures and is graveyard-dependent. Our opponents are guaranteed to bring in graveyard hate post-board, and if that nullifies our removal, that's a big problem.



I feel like Careful Study is a must in this deck, as it usually pitches some strong Madness/Thresh cards like Wonder, Vengevine, and Basking Rootwalla on your first turn.

Careful Study is a good option. I think it should be tested in a cantrip slot, though, rather than in addition to the cantrips. The danger, of course, lies in focusing too much on diversifying Madness-enablers and then having nothing to do with them. Not that we're approaching that danger quite yet. The downside to Careful Study is pitching things too soon (like Wonder), or leaving yourself with less to bring back Vengevine. I think I'll test them in Ponder's slot, myself (Brainstorm fits the Madness and Loam gameplans better, I think, and so should stay).




I also think Bloodghast has a chance to be a real all-star in this deck, but I'm not sure what gets cut for 3 of them. The inevitability of Bloodghast is something I think this deck could really benefit from, especially with the Life from the Loam/Intuition strategy already built in.

Yeah, I think that the choice is between Bloodghast and Vengevine, really. Running both looks to me like more of a cute trick than an effective plan of action, especially since they'll both suffer from the same deficiencies (mostly graveyard hate). What I like about Bloodghast is getting more mileage from our lands; what I like about Vengevine is its bigger body and its consistency (perma-haste).




I NEED to fit Cephalid Coliseum in here, but I feel like Volrath's Stronghold deserves a maindeck slot as well. I think I may axe the Ghost Quarter, even though it seems to fit the deck well.


I tinkered with Stronghold and Genesis both, but ultimately cut them to make room for other stuff. I decided that between Gigapede and Vengevine, that was probably enough recursion for most games, and Coliseum helps to balance out the creatures that I find. The unfortunate reality is that Stronghold is a land that produces colourless mana in a deck that has few lands to spare already. With three basics, three Sandbars, and Wasteland, mana is already a tight affair for me. For you, I think you might find that Stronghold works better without Ghost Quarter. We will only rarely Waste-lock an opponent: usually, Wasteland serves simply as man- or utility-land removal. GQ makes that plan stronger, but I think it's to the detriment of the rest of the deck.

Like you said, though, I think that Coliseum is a must. It's the best part of running Life from the Loam, really.




I feel like, overall, my build needs more card draw/library manipulation. In testing, I've come across several times where I felt like I really needed some more cards in hand. I thought about Brainstorm, Impulse, and Ponder, but I just didn't know what to cut to fit those in. The obvious choice is Pulse, but those are so strong against any type of aggro/token generation, I feel like they deserve to be there.
I think I might take them out and test those slots as card draw, maybe completing the playset of maindeck Deep Analysis. What about Obsessive Search replacing Deep Analysis completely? Do I have enough sac outlets to support those spells? Thoughts?


I don't think you should get rid of Pulse either--Pulse (or some other mass removal) is exactly what my build lacks, and I've been feeling the pain of it. Try running Brainstorm instead of Deep Analysis (you probably want to tinker your way up to three or four). You'll conserve mana (and life, but the mana is more important), and you'll find it works well with Life from the Loam. The lower our curve and the more consistent our manaflow, the more slots free up!


Well, those are my thoughts. Hope some are helpful and, if not, just chuck 'em back out the window. I won't mind.

[swarm187]

Good ideas, all.

I think I'm going to test Brainstorm in the Deep Analysis slots, maybe try to bump that number to 3 or 4 as well. Ghost Quarter has been replaced by Cephalid Coliseum, and I'm trying to work in some Lonely Sandbar or Barren Moor as well. I think that will really help to even out my drawing and hopefully give me some help hitting Thresh and getting to Vengevine.

Goaswerfraiejen, I thought about it a lot last night and I have to agree with you; Vengevine and Bloodghast are too redundant to warrant making a spot for both of them in this build. While I like the utility of land drops that comes with 'Ghast, I think the overall power of Vengevine is a better fit for this type of deck. I'll test both for sure, but I think it's safe to say that Vengevine will probably win the battle for maindeck spots.

That being said, am I losing something by not running 4?

[AggroSteve]

no i do not think it is necessary to play vengevine as a 4 of, 3 should do fine i think, since vengevine is only really stong if it cones from the graveyard, othewise its to much of mana investement i think, and madnes is all about undercostet things (at least it was)

cycling lands will probably be needed only two, just a stutor targets together with loam

last but not least i probably have to agree with Goaswerfraiejen that big game hunter is probably the best "removal" to help the overall madness plan and help the vengevine plan

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm almost certain the best, most competitive list will ultimately have Survival of the Fittest.

20
3 Vengevine
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Arrogant Wurm
2 Reckless Wurm
1 Squee
1 Wonder
1 Anger
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness
1 Silent Arbiter

22
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce/Snare (meta choice and playstyle decision)
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Deep Analysis
2 Rushing River
2 Intuition
1 Roar of the Wurm
1 Life from the Loam

18
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Forest
1 Island

This is far from perfect, just a quick effort to try and show what I mean. There are probably a lot of better choices, but I think it could prosper. I was going to try building UG madness as I have a soft spot in my heart for it. However, after seeing prices for Survival, I tossed the idea. I would like to see it finally creep back into the competitive scene though.

[mercc]

When talking about madness, you cannot miss out on survival.

I was thinking about going all in on discard-outlets + stuff that benefit from being discarded.

4 mongrel
4 survival
X putrid imp
X careful study (?)

4 vengevine
4 bloodghast
4 basking rootwalla
X big game hunter
1 wonder
4 cabal therapy, used like Ichorid benefits from it being in the GY

That way the deck can be consistent without having survival, which is the most common weakness for survival decks, they don't work without survival.

You can just cabal therapy T1, turn 2 play bloodghast and flashback therapy and so on.

Just brainstorming...

[swarm187]

Went to a 25 man Legacy tournament last night with the following build:

2x Basking Rootwalla
3x Putrid Imp
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Vengevine
3x Wild Mongrel
1x Wonder

3x Brainstorm
3x Careful Study
4x Circular Logic
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Force of Will
3x Intuition
1x Life From the Loam
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Snuff Out

3x Bayou
2x Cephaild Coliseum
1x Forest
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Swamp
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Polluted Delta
1x Wasteland


Sideboard:
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Aether Spellbomb
2x Spell Snare
3x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip
2x Vampire Hexmage


Round 1 was against UW Standstill variant.
This was a tough one, only because I made some pretty bad mental errors. Game 1 he basically had enough removal to keep himself at 5, then responded to my Intuition (getting Vengevine, Vengevine, Wonder) with a Cunning Wish into Ravenous Trap. Pretty devastating. I had no counter magic in my hand and that would have been the game for him.
Game 2 drew us out to time with no winner after 5 turns. It was a struggle for him to keep my threats off of the board and I was able to keep him from his timely spells with my control elements. I sided in Spell Snare and Krosan Grip and both were used to keep Standstill and Crucible off of the table. This game should have been mine, as I had lethal damage on the board with a Wonder in the yard but I let him block with non-flyers to save himself. Next turn he drew into Cunning Wish and he used Pulse of the Fields to stall the game out.
So, the match ended with me losing 0-1-1. I was bummed because it was a match I could have won had I played better. My opponent was a highly respected player at our store as well, so it would have been nice to get the win.

Round 2 was Dreadnought/Stifle variant.
I'm not really sure what this deck had because both games went pretty quick. Game 1 he Dreadnoughts turn 2 and I Diabolic Edict EOT followed by Wastelanding his dual on my turn and laying a Tarmogoyf. He scooped.
Game 2 he Dreadnoughts turn 2 again, I let it stick and Maelstrom Pulse it the next turn while swinging with a Putrid Imp and Wild Mongrel. Goyf comes down too and he scoops.
2-0 and it was that easy. My deck worked exactly the way I thought it should in both games, giving me Brainstorms and Careful Studies to give me options, and I had the cards in hand to manage his threats.

Round 3 was against Zoo.
I'm not much on criticizing popular decks, but the deck I played here was the latest netdecked version of Zoo and I thought it wasn't very strong. The problem I saw in all three games was that he was short on mana, big time. After the match my opponent, Anthony, and I talked about the deck and its strengths and weaknesses and he said that he's running 19 land. While Zoo relies on cheap, fast creatures, I feel like they're pushing the boundaries with how little mana they have maindeck.
Game 1 I am on the play and my turn one is Careful Study into free Rootwalla. He has to mulligan to 5 and plays a Plateau into Steppe Linx. My second land is Wasteland. He scoops.
Game 2 I had to mulligan to 6, my only mulligan of the tournament, and he starts the same way as Game 1: Plateau into Steppe Linx. I had sided in Engineered Explosives and Spell Snare for the aggro matchup. My hand was iffy to begin with and I drew 3 straight lands. I kept Goyf off the board, but he ran me over. I got down 2 Engineered Explosives, but I had zero threats that could stay on the board. I lose to a few Loam Lions.
Game 3 was interesting, again, because I felt like I could have won this with tighter play. We traded guys early, with me getting a Wonder and a Vengevine in the yard with an early Intuition. About 5 turns in I had lethal damage on the board and swung over his head, but in response he discarded Faerie Macabre to ditch my Wasteland and Wonder. Bummer. He's able to block me with his slightly bigger dudes, even after I pump Rootwalla and pitch a land to Mongrel. Goyfs trade and we end up drawing due to time.

At that point I was 1-1-1 with zero hope of making it into Top 8, but I decided to play my 4th Round anyways.

Round 4 was against a nice guy named Jordan piloting Goblins.
I have played Jordan a time or 2 before this, so I knew what I was up against. Goblins is a real tough matchup for this deck, especially pre-board, and my fears proved to be completely accurate.
Game 1 he boat races me through Rootwallas and Mongrels, even a well-played Maelstrom Pulse, to win easily.
Game 2 I side in Spell Snare and EE but never see either and I scoop to turn 3 Piledriver, Matron, Lackey, and Warchief.


So, I ended my tournament at 1-2-1. I was completely encouraged by the deck throughout the tournament, as I think most of the mistakes came in my play and not the cards in my hand. There are a few things that need to be changed though, and I'm going to start tinkering with it tonight.
The first issue is that this deck cannot survive in topdeck mode. Before the tournament started, I made room for Brainstorm and I'm glad I did. Even with those maindecked, I was forced into topdeck mode more times than not. It is a struggle for this build to just draw one card per turn and pray it's useful. I got the Loam engine going 3 times and that was awesome, but overall I think this deck really needs more draw, Top, Mirri's Guile or something. I may find room to put Deep Analysis back in as a start. I also need to work in at least 2 or 3 cycle lands into the maindeck. Lonely Sandbar and Tranquil Thicket are almost a must.
Secondly, this deck is dying for Nimble Mongoose. That card would have singlehandedly won me my first round, and it would have been extremely relevant in every other round as well. I'm thinking of replacing Rootwalla with these and seeing how it works. There is just too much StP, Lightning Bolt, etc. floating around not to have a creature like Mongoose in your maindeck.
Lastly, my sideboard needs some serious work. Aether Spellbomb is out because Reanimator is almost totally dead. I'm thinking I need some mix of Chill and Engineered Plague to fight off Goblins and Merfolk. I also really like Pernicious Deed and Voidslime as possible sideboard cards too.

Please post any thoughts/ideas you have for this build. I was really encouraged by the deck and I'm moving ahead with it. I'm hoping to at least make myself a relevant player at my weekly Legacy tournaments.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Swarm: Looks good to me. I've been having the same thoughts about Nimble Mongoose in my own testing, even though I still have Gigapede as well. The only downside is that it makes it slightly harder to abuse Vengevine.

[swarm187]

Very true, but I've noticed something with my build that I didn't really expect: I'm often more impressed by the impact of Threshold trips than by Madness trips.
A free Rootwalla is great when you've got a Vengevine or two in the yard, but a turn 3 Nimble Mongoose that has Threshold is CRUSHING. I've gone back and forth about it, and I'm sure I'll continue to do so, but for now I think I'm gonna try Mongoose out maindeck.

I honestly considered running Krosan Beast as a one-of as well. I mean, even though it's screaming for StP, that nets you 8 life. It's either that or it sits on your board and says, "please swing into me.". If you've already happened to pitch a Wonder, it's gg.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Yeah, I've also noticed how quickly I can attain Threshold, although it helps that I've maintained the two cycling lands. I'm not convinced that Krosan Beast is the way to go, though. I mean, we could conceivably support Terravore or Tombstalker just about as easily, with (I think) a similar effect. Both also have the advantage of some form of evasion, which the Beast lacks. Delve doesn't have good synergy with Threshold (or Vengevine), of course, but I suspect that it would balance out so long as you weren't running many Tombstalkers (i.e. one, and not necessarily hoping to cast it, just to take advantage of it if the opportunity presented itself). Too bad there's nothing quite like Mystic Enforcer in-colour.

[swarm187]

Here's the list I fished today, seems like it's running much smoother than my last list:

2x Nimble Mongoose
3x Putrid Imp
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Vengevine
3x Wild Mongrel
1x Wonder

3x Brainstorm
3x Careful Study
3x Circular Logic
2x Deep Analysis
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Force of Will
3x Intuition
1x Life From the Loam
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Snuff Out

1x Barren Moor
3x Bayou
1x Cephaild Coliseum
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Swamp
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Polluted Delta
1x Wasteland


Sideboard:
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Chill
2x Spell Snare
3x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip
2x Hydroblast


Like I said, it seems like dropping a dual and a basic for 2-cycle lands gives me a bunch more draw power. I also took out 1- Careful Study and 1- Cephalid Coliseum because using them to get Threshold and pitch useful stuff is great, but drawing and discarding doesn't cut it when I'm looking for answers. In their place I put Deep Analysis, which really shines in this deck. Pitching it to Mongrel or Putrid Imp and playing for its Flashback cost is pretty nice.

As I thought, Nimble Mongoose is a house. It's really a nice surprise, especially when you've got Threshold the first turn you can swing with it.

I will continue to test, of course, and I'm still considering Sideboard changes. Next up with be a test to see if Survival of the Fittest can fit in here or if it just clutters the deck up/changes into something completely different.

[kicks_422]

Here's my build of "traditional" UG Madness. I think it's the closest to being optimal for the deck, as there's really nowhere else for the traditional build to go.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
5 Forest
5 Island

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Circular Logic
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Bouncer has been great defensively, but I won't mind swapping it out for something that resembles another Mongrel.

[kicks_422]

Here's my build of "traditional" UG Madness. I think it's the closest to being optimal for the deck, as there's really nowhere else for the traditional build to go.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
5 Forest
5 Island

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Circular Logic
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Bouncer has been great defensively, but I won't mind swapping it out for something that resembles another Mongrel.

[swarm187]

Update:
I finally came across a few more copies of Survival of the Fittest, so I decided to give them a try. I haven't put them in the deck yet because I honestly don't know what to take out of my maindeck list at this point. The mechanic and synergy with the rest of the deck seem strong, that's for sure, but I'm not sure if adding that strategy just turns this deck into a crappy Survival build.

I'll test it, probably tomorrow, and I'll post my list and results when I get a chance.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Survival isn't going to be a card you can just dump into a list. You are going to have to think your choices through and use creatures in place of removal, draw, etc. where ever possible. Try talking to Di or someone who has some experience with the card, they will probably have some serious insight to a madness build. If you thought of playing it, I promise that anyone who plays any form of Survival has also at least looked at every creature we've proposed on this thread and then some.

[troopatroop]

In general, Madness is better off without Survival and Survival is better off without Madness. The one exception is Basking Rootwalla and Vengevine in G/W Survival. I'm pretty sure that's the only one too. The thing is, If you're going to play Survival at all, you might as well be fetching up Tarmogoyfs.

[swarm187]

Secretly- I've long understood that adding Survival would end up changing the build completely. It's just some thing I wanted to test, even though it will most likely be a completely different decklist. I've never tried Survival in a Madness deck, so I wanted to see if it could work. I think talking to the people more familiar with Survival lists is a good idea, and if the deck really seems better than my current list, I'll do that immediately. I do agree with you though, tossing Survival in is a bad idea. It needs to have its own base before it can be maximized.

troopatroop- Like I said before, I have a feeling that Madness/Survival will be strictly worse than a regular Survival build or a regular Madness build. It's just something I wanted to try, to see if I like the way it plays. After looking at the GW Survival list, I feel like that's the exact route I was looking to go, and probably the end result of a lot of changes and card choices I'd go through to get there...and of course it's lost all of the Madness aspects that make this build so fun.

Maybe testing Survival here is just a waste of time, I'll really have to think it out.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Isn't this deck now defunct? I used to play Madness myself, and I am excited by all the attention it seems to be getting in this thread, but is it any better than tier 2 now?

[swarm187]

Not sure if it's good enough to be Tier 1, but I'm testing it now and seeing how well it can perform. We'll see what happens, but it's still a fun deck to play.

[largebrandon]

Anyone catching the GP Columbus? UG Madness is doing exceedingly well even though there is just one player with it. Some key things to note about it:

-4 Arrogant Wurm
+4 Vengevine
+4 Survival of the Fittest
-4 Circular logic
+3 Trygon Predator

Basically, you put down Survival on turn two, turn three you use survival to get vengevine, then do it two more times, turn four get two basking rootwallas and play them both for their madness cost, bring back the two vengevine from the graveyard to play.

Other ways of playing it: Turn 2 Mongrel, discard vengevine and rootwalla and swing with vengevine. I belive it also plays a couple copies of aquamobea.

[Hanni]

The whole Vengvine plan is strong, but it's nothing new, GW Survival has been using it for a while. What I do like is how he uses Wild Mongrel's and such to make Vengevine's relevant when Survival isn't online (since it's essentially win-more anyway), but I don't think Trygon Predator needs to be a defining reason why it works so well in a Madness shell. Of course, Trygon Predator is savage tech when the meta is invested with Counterbalance, which was a good call by Caleb (he's a magic-league guy for those who don't know him).

As far as this archtype is concerned though, I don't think that the straight U/G with Stifle/Waste approach is the best idea, and I don't think Aquamoeba is even remotely worth it... there's simply much better options out there.

I think a splash would be a good start. Red seems unecessary, since the deck doesn't need Anger. That leaves it to either white or black, but I think black offers more with Big Game Hunter, Shriekmaw, and Fleshbag Marauder as tutorable removal with Survival. However, I'd be all over Noble Hierarch for this deck, white splash or not.

Putrid Imp, Zombie Infestation, and Psychatog all seem like much better discard outlets than Aquamoeba, and if pitching to FoW is a concern, Tog should get the nod.

[kicks_422]

So... The only control element left would be Force of WIll, and maybe Daze? Without card draw, would that be sufficient enough, or would it be better to just go all-out aggro?

[largebrandon]

He did say he played 4x FoW and 4x Daze with a few stifle and also four Spell Pierce in the SB. I don't remember if he played brainstorm, but I would sure do. Furthermore, I'd also play Circular Logic in place of Daze.

I did see him play Noble Heirarch, but I'm not sure if it was main deck or for SB for some reason.

As for a colour splash, I don't think its really work it, because you'll be more vulnerable to non-basic hate. He's doing so well because he is supporting Wastelands and stifle and is hating non-basics himself. I find Aquamoeba to be a fine card to play in the deck, and see no reason why he should be taken out for a splashed card. You're not using him to beat face with, per se, but merely to get your engine running. He's better than tog in this deck because he's on colour and because he's a 2 drop. If this deck doesn't drop a discard engine on turn 2, then it could be trouble.