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Fizzeler
03-19-2013, 01:12 PM
A thread for Wafo-Tapa and Andrew Cuneo Draw-Go control, typically UWr with counters, removal, and manlands

Sample List:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge
26 lands

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 creatures

4 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
2 Path to Exile
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Think Twice
30 other spells

1 Ajani Vengeant
1 planeswalker


Sideboard
1 Batterskull
2 Celestial Purge
2 Counterflux
1 Pyroclasm
2 Sowing Salt
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Vendilion Clique
15 sideboard cards

Discuss!

Koby
03-19-2013, 01:18 PM
I hate this deck, not because it's bad. but because it's fucking obnoxious to play against. I have nightmares of 1997 all over again playing against it.

Well played, Wafo-Tapo, well played.

FWIW, I ended up losing to this list at the GP when my opponent drew all 3 Tec Edges along with Ajani Vengeant, to go all Ponza on my 20 land deck. T.T

Fizzeler
03-19-2013, 01:34 PM
I hate this deck, not because it's bad. but because it's fucking obnoxious to play against. I have nightmares of 1997 all over again playing against it.

Well played, Wafo-Tapo, well played.

FWIW, I ended up losing to this list at the GP when my opponent drew all 3 Tec Edges along with Ajani Vengeant, to go all Ponza on my 20 land deck. T.T

It is a chore to play against (I play it and let me say I hate sitting across RG Tron with it since you almost always lose if they have turn 3 Karn), but the mirrors and Midrange MUs are quite fun

Wafo successfully built a Draw-Go control deck and now Cuneo is working on his own build of a control deck, I'll post that whenever I see a finalized list on his stream

Ajani Vengeant is the newest addition to the deck (I run Gideon and Elspeth as well and some builds run Karn) he does everything you want him to disrupts vs Aggro, locks out midrange, and stalls vs combo

The deck runs 4 Tec Edge for WUR and Tron, RG Tron is a very bad MU for the deck as it just loses to Karn so very hard if they can't deal with it the turn it comes out

LowBeyonder
03-19-2013, 07:10 PM
I played a very similar list at the GP and was happy with the deck (despite my misplays costing me pretty badly). The Tron matchup is godawful, though.

Fizzeler
03-19-2013, 11:19 PM
I played a very similar list at the GP and was happy with the deck (despite my misplays costing me pretty badly). The Tron matchup is godawful, though.

Yeah considering a 2/2 split between GQ and Tec Edge just for Tron and running Crucible in the board

DragoFireheart
04-09-2013, 02:42 PM
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dgm/tiwoirwiixix/pwnx7gvean_EN.jpg

+

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?size=small&type=card&name=Ajani%20Vengeant&options=

=


1. Lots of direct damage.

2. Ral taps the dude, Ajani keeps him tapped down.

3. Both are good on their own.

4. In this decks' colors.

Arsenal
12-10-2013, 11:48 AM
After many months on UWR Midrange, I've decided to pickup UWR Control beginning this Friday. I've always been a control player at heart and even though UWR Control has fallen out of favor lately, I still think it's powerful enough to be competitive in an open meta. Here's the list I'm running for this week's FNM:

2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Supreme Verdict

2 Think Twice
2 Sphinx’s Revelation
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade

Sideboard:

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hallowed Burial
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear//Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
1 Dispel
3 Negate

My local meta sees competitive players piloting RG Tron, Affinity, Twin Exarch, Melira Pod, BGx Midrange (Junk and Jund), Living End, UWR Control, Scapeshift, Soul Sisters, and then your usual smattering of ultra random stuff like Boros, Burn, homebrews, etc.

EDIT: Updated 5-13-14 decklist.

Davran
01-31-2014, 10:34 AM
I've been playing this list for the past couple weeks with mixed results:

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
1 Think Twice
2 Electrolyze
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Cryptic Command

2 Supreme Verdict

1 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Gideon Jura

3 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dispel
1 Wear // Tear
2 Celestial Purge
1 Combust
1 Pyroclasm
2 Stony Silence
2 Counterflux
2 Sowing Salt
1 Batterskull
1 Hallowed Burial

My meta is full of more "budget" decks like burn and affinity. I also see a lot of UR Delver/Pyromancer, occasionaly jund, and tron (both mono-U and RG).

I've been thinking about swapping the Gideon for Ajani Vengeant, and the Cliques for Restoration Angels.

The sideboard is also kind of a mess. Hallowed Burial is there mostly as filler because I had no idea what else to put in.

Any suggestions are certainly welcome.

Arsenal
01-31-2014, 11:48 AM
You definitely want to run at least 3, probably 4, Electrolyze versus aggro decks like Affinity, Burn (assuming they're running Goblin Guides, Hellspark Elemental, etc), Soul Sisters, 2/1 Pyromancers + his 1/1 token army, random homebrews.

I've been unimpressed by Gideon Jura everytime I've drawn him. I think with 3 Path, 2 Verdict, 3-4 Electrolyze, 2-3 Helix + 4 Snapcasters, crowd control isn't an issue. Gideon Jura just turns on your opponent's otherwise mostly dead spot removal should you ever +0 him, and while his +2 is good in situations, Verdict is generally better and comes down 1 turn sooner (relevant if you're trying to stablize versus Affinity).

Ajani is the best finisher we have. The "keep your land tapped" + Tectonic Edge plan can really out us far ahead in certain games (we run 26 lands, other decks are at 22-24). And Ajani's ultimate wins the game outright whereas other Planewalkers' ultimates don't.

Davran
01-31-2014, 12:35 PM
You definitely want to run at least 3, probably 4, Electrolyze versus aggro decks like Affinity, Burn (assuming they're running Goblin Guides, Hellspark Elemental, etc), Soul Sisters, 2/1 Pyromancers + his 1/1 token army, random homebrews.

I've been unimpressed by Gideon Jura everytime I've drawn him. I think with 3 Path, 2 Verdict, 3-4 Electrolyze, 2-3 Helix + 4 Snapcasters, crowd control isn't an issue. Gideon Jura just turns on your opponent's otherwise mostly dead spot removal should you ever +0 him, and while his +2 is good in situations, Verdict is generally better and comes down 1 turn sooner (relevant if you're trying to stablize versus Affinity).

Ajani is the best finisher we have. The "keep your land tapped" + Tectonic Edge plan can really out us far ahead in certain games (we run 26 lands, other decks are at 22-24). And Ajani's ultimate wins the game outright whereas other Planewalkers' ultimates don't.

I'll try out the third Electolyze for sure. I had been running the 3rd Helix in its spot because sometimes I needed the life way more than I needed the card. That's probably more to do with me making poor decisions than the list not being "right", though.

I feel the same way with Gideon. He either sits in hand, or winds up being countered. As far as I can remember, the only time he did something was against the poor bastard at his first FNM with a pile of about 80 blue and green cards. The poor kid had never seen a planeswalker before, so the resolved Gideon was a huge beating. I'm hoping that Ajani will prove to be more useful.

Elspeth, on the other hand, is a recent addition I'm trying out...and she hasn't really come up yet. I'm mostly hoping to chump with the soldiers or occasionally get in there with a jumped snappy or something. I guess I'll see how it plays out.

Arsenal
01-31-2014, 01:04 PM
Against a legion of */1 dudes you likely face in your meta (Affinity, UR Pyromancer, etc), Electrolyze's 2-for-0 (kill two */1 dudes, Electrolyze replaces itself) can just win games by itself. I'd seriously run no less than 3 and I'd probably go to 4 in your meta.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant is interesting. I have also considered her, but I just can never get behind her. Her ultimate is "meh" although her two +1s can finish games quickly and she'll eventually run the opponent out of creature spot removal whereas Celestial Colonnade eating a Path to Exile/Terminate/Tectonic Edge can hurt us when we're trying to finish quickly.

Davran
01-31-2014, 02:29 PM
Against a legion of */1 dudes you likely face in your meta (Affinity, UR Pyromancer, etc), Electrolyze's 2-for-0 (kill two */1 dudes, Electrolyze replaces itself) can just win games by itself. I'd seriously run no less than 3 and I'd probably go to 4 in your meta.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant is interesting. I have also considered her, but I just can never get behind her. Her ultimate is "meh" although her two +1s can finish games quickly and she'll eventually run the opponent out of creature spot removal whereas Celestial Colonnade eating a Path to Exile/Terminate/Tectonic Edge can hurt us when we're trying to finish quickly.

The other thing I'm just now realizing is that Spell Snare is a card that UR decks typically play. Electrolyze blanks it a whole lot better than Helix ever would.

Elspeth's ultimate might as well not exist in this format. Although, I suppose indestructible Colonnades are a thing vs. everything except Path to Exile.

I saw your updated list above - if you don't mind my asking, what's your sideboard strategy look like? I think that's one of my bigger stumbling blocks with the deck, especially when it comes to decks like Twin where we don't necessarily have "bad" cards (except maybe Verdict I guess).

Mr. Safety
01-31-2014, 02:34 PM
I've noticed that the really powerful cards in these decks are all blue and white. Yes Bolt is good, helix gives you life, and Ajani can be absurd. For the sake of research however, I am testing a 'red-less' build of this deck to see how it would fare. I feel that the power level can still be there, and while Gideon Jura hasn't been good in the above lists I feel that is due to the reach from the burn. I've found, in the few games I've tested this, that chaining a ton of Cryptic Commands is really, really good.

Current list:

3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Restoration Angel

4x Serum Visions
4x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
4x Cryptic Command
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
2x Spell Snare
2x Detention Sphere
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Gideon Jura
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Sejiri Refuge
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Island
2x Plains
3x Tectonic Edge


I would love thoughts on this list. As I said, it's an experiment. So far it has been still doing a great job as a control deck. Gideon seems to close games fast once he comes online and I've LOVED Elspeth in there so far.

Arsenal
01-31-2014, 02:53 PM
The other thing I'm just now realizing is that Spell Snare is a card that UR decks typically play. Electrolyze blanks it a whole lot better than Helix ever would.

Elspeth's ultimate might as well not exist in this format. Although, I suppose indestructible Colonnades are a thing vs. everything except Path to Exile.

I saw your updated list above - if you don't mind my asking, what's your sideboard strategy look like? I think that's one of my bigger stumbling blocks with the deck, especially when it comes to decks like Twin where we don't necessarily have "bad" cards (except maybe Verdict I guess).

The way I approach is UWR Control is that I'm supremely confident that my maindeck will crush aggro decks like Affinity/Boros/Infect/etc, I'll usually 1-for-1 midrange decks like Jund reasonably well until I can Sphinx for 4+, and the problematic matchups are the decks that rely mostly on noncreature spells to get there. Hence, my sideboard is dedicated to the noncreature matchups like Living End (I don't consider this a creature deck), Tron, Ad Nauseum combo, Twin (I realize the win condition is creature based, but their noncreature spells are the real problem).

Against Tron:

-2 Supreme Verdict, +2 Counterflux
-2 Lightning Helix, -4 Snapcaster, +2 Aven Mindcensor, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Sowing Salt
-3 Electrolyze, +3 Negate
-2 Spell Snare, +2 Wear//Tear

Against Living End:

-2 Supreme Verdict (you won't have 4 mana to cast this between their Avalance Riders, Fulminator Mages and Beast Withins), + 2 Counterflux
-3 Spell Snare, +3 Negate
-2 Lightning Helix, +2 Aven Mindcensor (Flash-speed pressure that they can't really remove outside of Living End and Beast Within is better than Helix, and you may get lucky with turning off their Swamp/Plainscyclers)

Against Scapeshift:

-2 Supreme Verdict, +2 Counterflux
-2 Lightning Helix, +2 Aven Mindcensor
-2 Electrolyze, +2 Sowing Salt (you may get lucky and hit their naked Valakut or even hitting their Shocklands is quite good)
-3 Mana Leak, +3 Negate (I keep in the Spell Snares for their Remand/Izzet Charm/mana accel, and Mana Leak can get quite bad versus them rather quickly if they do ramp)

Against Twin:

-2 Supreme Verdict, +2 Counterflux
-2 Lightning Helix, +2 Wear//Tear (this is insanely good vs. them as they'll typically bring in cards like Spellskite, Batterskull, Blood Moon on top of being able to hit the actual card Splinter Twin)
-1 Electrolyze, -2 Think Twice, +3 Negate (this matchup is super grindy, so I think it's better to have redundancy over Think Twice's hit-or-miss advantage)

Against Ad Nauseum:

-2 Supreme Verdict, +2 Counterflux (save these for the actual card Ad Nauseum)
-3 Path to Exile, +3 Negate
-2 Lightning Helix, +2 Aven Mindcensor (hits Mystical Teachings, can apply pressure out of nowhere)
-3 Spell Snare, -1 Electrolyze, +2 Stony Silence (stops their mana accel), +2 Wear//Tear (can hit a mana accel piece and/or Phyrexian Unlife).
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mr. Safety -

That list seems like a reasonable place to start if running straight UW, but by cutting cards like 1cc Instant Lightning Bolt and 2cc Instant Lightning Helix, you've replaced it with more powerful, but less versatile and infintely slower cards like Detention Sphere + increasing your 4cc sweeper count. Also, Red gives you lots of nice SB options like Sowing Salt, Counterflux (wins pivotal stack wars in the Blue matchups), Combust, Wear/Tear, etc. Just something to think about.

EDIT: I've gone 4-0 the last two weeks at FNM with my maindeck. The only flex slots are the 2 Celestial Purge, sometimes they're 2 Rest in Peace if Living End and Junk sees an uptick.

Mr. Safety
02-01-2014, 12:53 PM
Mr. Safety -

That list seems like a reasonable place to start if running straight UW, but by cutting cards like 1cc Instant Lightning Bolt and 2cc Instant Lightning Helix, you've replaced it with more powerful, but less versatile and infintely slower cards like Detention Sphere + increasing your 4cc sweeper count. Also, Red gives you lots of nice SB options like Sowing Salt, Counterflux (wins pivotal stack wars in the Blue matchups), Combust, Wear/Tear, etc. Just something to think about.

EDIT: I've gone 4-0 the last two weeks at FNM with my maindeck. The only flex slots are the 2 Celestial Purge, sometimes they're 2 Rest in Peace if Living End and Junk sees an uptick.

I was feeling the same way, the deck has a weak early game (just Snare, Path, and Mana Leak.) Path isn't ideal in the early game, and nowhere near as good as Bolt in turns 1-3 (sometimes further.) Serum Visions is there to keep the deck active in the early game while making sure I get crucial land drops and a 4-mana wiper in time to matter.

I could easily go the route of adding red, which I have played in the past. I have all of the neccessary lands and cards for it, no problem. The only thing I lack is a 4th Snapcaster Mage (and I don't see a full set in all lists anyways.)

The main reasons to avoid red: mana-base stability (Cryptic is essentially ALWAYS online), less complicated lines of play, more powerful spells higher on the curve. More stable against the mid-range decks and Blood Moon is a non-issue.

The main reasons to play red: better early game, better ability at racing (reach)

This is what I have for 'deductions' so far. It's just an initial impression, one I will be testing more. Honestly, I felt that the red versions sometimes didn't have counterspells when it mattered or didn't have removal when it mattered. In the strictly white-blue version the main plan is counterspells and wipers, forcing better card advantage plays rather than driving tempo.

Arsenal
02-03-2014, 03:46 PM
With the banning of Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster's value goes up (if that was even possible). Also, we no longer have to worry about turn 2 Liilana. And if the banning of DRS causes less BGx decks to be played, I hope that will also mean less Thoughtseize being played.

More Nacatl decks and less Thoughtseize decks is a control player's dream. We CRUSH aggro strategies unless they're backed up with disruption and/or countermagic. Zoo runs neither. A win-win for us. UWR Control is looking well positioned. We just have to wait to see what UBx Fae does now.

Mr. Safety
02-03-2014, 05:43 PM
With the banning of Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster's value goes up (if that was even possible). Also, we no longer have to worry about turn 2 Liilana. And if the banning of DRS causes less BGx decks to be played, I hope that will also mean less Thoughtseize being played.

More Nacatl decks and less Thoughtseize decks is a control player's dream. We CRUSH aggro strategies unless they're backed up with disruption and/or countermagic. Zoo runs neither. A win-win for us. UWR Control is looking well positioned. We just have to wait to see what UBx Fae does now.

Fold to Supreme Verdict? ;) Oh wait, I mean fold to a Volcanic Fallout. I jest, but it's a brave new world out there.

I will still be continually testing my straight U/W version, especially now that the primary culprit for splashing Bolts is now gone (Deathrite.)

JPoJohnson
02-03-2014, 05:45 PM
Why is T2 Lili all of the sudden non-existant? There are other mana dorks that can fill DRS slot to allow for the T2 still. I don't get why people are thinking this way.

Arsenal
02-03-2014, 05:46 PM
UBx Fae could be a thing. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Bitterblossom can be super annoying for us. We don't have any good answer to a resolved Bitterblossom maindeck, other than to hope we can burn them out due to their fetchland/shockland/Thoughtseize/Bitterblossom lifeloss. Postboard, I have 2 Wear//Tear, so I feel a bit better.

YamiJoey
02-04-2014, 07:43 AM
Why is T2 Lili all of the sudden non-existant? There are other mana dorks that can fill DRS slot to allow for the T2 still. I don't get why people are thinking this way.

1) Because they must have Green. DRS could be cast from Swamp.
2) Birds -> Lili isn't a deck.

Davran
02-04-2014, 08:55 AM
UBx Fae could be a thing. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Bitterblossom can be super annoying for us. We don't have any good answer to a resolved Bitterblossom maindeck, other than to hope we can burn them out due to their fetchland/shockland/Thoughtseize/Bitterblossom lifeloss. Postboard, I have 2 Wear//Tear, so I feel a bit better.

Does this increase the value of Spell Snare in the main deck? It's mostly speculation right now since there is no list to metagame against...but I have to assume any Fae deck will be running the full boat of Spellstutter Sprite and at least 3 Bitterblossom...both of which cost 2. Snare dodges their own Snare (i.e. if they wait until turn 3 to have Snare backup in case we Leak).

Of course it's all moot if they just Thoughtseize first...but they can't have it all the time, can they?

As for the sideboard - I'm not ready to ditch my Celestial Purge yet...so that's another side-in vs. the blossom.

Arsenal
02-04-2014, 09:19 AM
I maindeck 3 Spell Snare already, and I don't think I'll go to 4 as I have additional counters post-board plus 2 copies of Wear/Tear. Celestial Purge is another decent card to consider in the meta right now, although it really, really shined in the Jund matchup (hit Bob, Lili, Raving Ravine, Huntmaster/Chandra, etc)

JPoJohnson
02-04-2014, 11:19 AM
1) Because they must have Green. DRS could be cast from Swamp.
2) Birds -> Lili isn't a deck.

Birds->Lili wasn't a deck. WASN'T a deck. I promise that people are shifting their decks and they like the early ramp provided by DRS and chucking a different weenie into the deck in his slot will be what some people do. Overgrown Tomb -> Noble Hierarch -> T2 Lili is quite a feasible play and I plan on seeing it. So should you.

Arsenal
02-04-2014, 11:29 AM
If that's what the BGx are going to do, that's fair. A turn 1 BoP/Hierarch --> turn 2 Liliana in exchange for them topdecking a mostly worthless BoP/Hierarch on turn 10 is fair. With DRS, they had the explosive starts PLUS the mid-late game threat all in one package. Far too efficient for Modern.

Also, the fact that BoP and Hierarch can't touch graveyards is HUGE. So if that's the plan, good. I'll eat a few turn 2 Lilianas and now I'll have my Snapcaster targets unmolested, that's a fair exchange. Personally, I believe going -4 DRS, +2 Grim Lavamancer, +1 land, +1 IoK is the way to go for Jund. Grim's Shock can serve as a pseudo-DRS in the mid-late game when BGx is traditionally in topdeck mode, and because he hits creatures, he doubles as removal for Pestermites, the anticipated Faerie legion, etc. He really looks well positioned now that DRS is gone and Fae is likely to see a major uptick in play (whether it sustains after the initial rush... idk).

YamiJoey
02-04-2014, 12:51 PM
Birds->Lili wasn't a deck. WASN'T a deck. I promise that people are shifting their decks and they like the early ramp provided by DRS and chucking a different weenie into the deck in his slot will be what some people do. Overgrown Tomb -> Noble Hierarch -> T2 Lili is quite a feasible play and I plan on seeing it. So should you.

DEAL. That deck sounds fucking horrendous. I cannot wait to face it.

Spell Snare keeps around the same value for now. We'll see less Rock, but more Fae, and it's good against both. We will probably see Bitter Bob as some kind of Suicide Black deck or something, and possibly Esper somethingorother. (Bob/Blossom/Rev seems like a deck.) It could go up in value, but for now I'm keepingnit as a board card, and only looking into maining it if my meta changes or if the format becomes heavy on 2-drops. I don't really react to my own meta much, I play the deck I feel would be good for a PTQ etc. and fight for my FNM's and stuff. It allows to you test against a field of bad MU's a lot of the time, which is both exciting and useful.

Lavaman is an excellent shout. I expect to see more of that, and expect my Electrolyzes to get me even more value.

Arsenal
02-04-2014, 05:55 PM
If Fae becomes a thing, I cannot wait to see the look on my opponent's face when I Electrolyze his board away... then do it against with Snapcaster.

YamiJoey
02-04-2014, 06:47 PM
Electrolyzing only their guys is asking to get blown out by a Scion. Take your +1 and protection against Scion and be happy.

We should play Thundermaw somewhere. It's good in every match.

Davran
02-04-2014, 07:06 PM
Electrolyzing only their guys is asking to get blown out by a Scion. Take your +1 and protection against Scion and be happy.

We should play Thundermaw somewhere. It's good in every match.

Yeah, I think I'm going to find space for at least one Tundermaw in my board. Seems quite good vs. Bitterblossom, and UB tokens if that's a thing now.

Arsenal
02-04-2014, 07:31 PM
Lots of people had a 1-of Batterskull in the SB, could just be Thundermaw if Fae does become a thing. Will it though, longterm?

YamiJoey
02-05-2014, 06:59 AM
Bitterblossom is the most powerful card in the format. It will become a thing and short of a banning stay there. Fae is incredible without BB.

I'm maining my Thundermaw. There is literally no MU I don't want one. Against aggro it allows you to push for victory after stabilising so that they can't develop a hand and board to make a comeback, against Tron it lets you kill Karns and once against swing in for victory when you finally manage to stabilise because every topdeck could cost you the game there. Against Control it's a random Hasty bomb, and against Fae it is a 5-mana 5/5 Flying Haste Wrath.

I really liked Stormbreath Dragon too, but now that Fae is back Thundermaw takes it. Which is a shame.

n0mad
02-05-2014, 09:08 AM
Bitterblossom is the most powerful card in the format. It will become a thing and short of a banning stay there. Fae is incredible without BB.

I'm maining my Thundermaw. There is literally no MU I don't want one. Against aggro it allows you to push for victory after stabilising so that they can't develop a hand and board to make a comeback, against Tron it lets you kill Karns and once against swing in for victory when you finally manage to stabilise because every topdeck could cost you the game there. Against Control it's a random Hasty bomb, and against Fae it is a 5-mana 5/5 Flying Haste Wrath.

I really liked Stormbreath Dragon too, but now that Fae is back Thundermaw takes it. Which is a shame.

i like the idea of Thundermaw vs Fae, but if you include it do you also have to include cavern of souls?

YamiJoey
02-05-2014, 01:45 PM
i like the idea of Thundermaw vs Fae, but if you include it do you also have to include cavern of souls?

I'll just play well instead, that's cool .

Davran
02-07-2014, 08:45 AM
This is the list I'm going to trot out for FNM tonight. I assume the meta will consist of burn, UR, twin, tron, affinity, and maybe some form of fae. There might also be a zoo deck or two running around. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Main:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
1 Think Twice
3 Electrolyze
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Cryptic Command

2 Supreme Verdict

1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Wear // Tear
2 Celestial Purge
1 Combust
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Counterflux
2 Sowing Salt
1 Batterskull
1 Thundermaw Hellkite

Arsenal
02-07-2014, 10:39 AM
If Zoo becomes a thing, EE is going to be the biggest blowout versus them. Soooo many 1 drop creatures that you can blow up as soon as your 2nd turn. Good I hope Zoo becomes a thing.

nodahero
02-07-2014, 11:06 AM
Your list looks fairly stock. I may hedge a bit and up the Spellsnare count. Turn two Blossom on the play is probably good game if it lands G1.

Additionally, with DRS gone perhaps we should consider Rune Snag more heavily in this variant given the slower and more methodical game plan. I am PRESUMING that the uptick in graveyard decks will spike for like 2 weeks so we would get splash damage but after that I think Rune Snag will become more powerful.

PS If Zoo really does become a thing I am betting it will be more akin to Kibler's big zoo from years past. I don't think low curve zoo will be prominent for the exact reason you suggest.

Arsenal
02-07-2014, 11:12 AM
Big Zoo (Zoo in general) is rather unimpressive. The only card that truly matters versus us is Domri Rade, but that can really apply to any of the planeswalkers. If they don't have Domri, they just play into our 1-for-1 game until it's turn 11 and we just win. Big Zoo also lacks reach, so I don't feel in danger when I tap out to Think Twice/Electrolyze/Sphinx's Revelation/flashback Snapcaster.

Davran
02-07-2014, 01:05 PM
If Zoo becomes a thing, EE is going to be the biggest blowout versus them. Soooo many 1 drop creatures that you can blow up as soon as your 2nd turn. Good I hope Zoo becomes a thing.

I played UW Tron "back in the day", and this was a fun thing to do for sure. It was even more fun to follow up with Timely Reinforcements after they spent the following turn casting something irrelevant since it often erased a large portion of the damage they did and provided plenty of time to Elesh Norn them right out of the game.

Speaking of Elesh Norn...is that a reasonable consideration for us? 7 mana is hardly a drawback with this deck, and Fae in particular would likely have all sorts of problems dealing with it. It's also not dead vs. Zoo and whatever other aggro decks pop up in the metagame (i.e. some version of Junk with Lingering Souls?)

Timber
02-07-2014, 03:34 PM
I realize that 5 cmc is tough, but what about Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir? If you can resolve him and protect him (both not easy to do) he wrecks both Faeries and the tempo and popular control version of this deck.

He worked really well for Ben Stark at Worlds in game 3 when he drew him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmJY5AlBEY (Game 3 starts around 54 minutes)

Thoughts?

nodahero
02-07-2014, 05:28 PM
I think Mr. T is a viable singleton out of the board because as you said if you land him in the right matches you can just walk away with the game. I don't think that is the case though with Fae... If you would win with him, I bet you would also win from that situation without him save for Cryptic blow outs.

Davran
02-08-2014, 01:40 PM
So I played the list above last night at FNM to a rather unimpressive finish. A few thoughts:

1. I play tested and then played against a zoo deck featuring Nacatl and Knight of the Reliquary. The match up seems to be heavily in our favor. They can get off to a pretty aggressive start, but we have enough removal that we can generally claw back. Supreme Verdict is a huge blowout vs the match. The only time I ever felt relatively threatened was if/when he was able to resolve a Knight as that is by far the hardest card for us to beat. Look for Combust out of the sidebord, and be careful not to get blown out by Sejiri Steppe off of Knight.

2. I also play tested and played against UB Fae. Unlike Zoo, this match up seemed nigh unwinnable. We don't present any sort of clock, so all he had to do was wait around until he had enough lands to have Blossom/Mistbind with counter backup. He has more counters than we do too. The Thundermaw Hellkite plan isn't all that stellar either because they've generally got a cryptic for it, and have enough of a clock to put us under some serious pressure if we choose to wait. My sideboard hate was irrelevant in every game as a result of Inquisition, Thoughtseize and/or Vendilion Clique. Electrolyze was fine, though if they manage to resolve a Blossom we're pretty boned since Mistbind can just champion that instead.

I played a few games against Fae after the tournament with a UWR tempo build (Remand, Geist, Figure of Destiny, Delver), which was much much better. I never felt out of control during those games as he was forced to answer each and every threat I played, quickly running him out of cards. The only out he had to a resolved Geist was double blocking, but with the Bolts and Electrolyzes that plan wasn't all that great either.

In short, if Fae becomes the new deck to beat in the format I'm not sure this archetype can survive without some serious tweaking.

Mr. Safety
02-09-2014, 01:41 PM
I played against faeries online and I went 1-2. Verdict is one of the best cards, making me maindeck 3 along with one wrath. Remember that my version is strictly u/w, just for reference. I felt that the match was winnable, all of the games were long grinders. Gideon is amazing against faeries, and snappy played wrath duty for the entire match.

The surprise from that deck was cavern of souls...this is a beating against this deck, red or not. The traditional lists with rex should be adjusting to include volcanic fallout.

Davran
02-10-2014, 08:08 AM
I realize that 5 cmc is tough, but what about Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir? If you can resolve him and protect him (both not easy to do) he wrecks both Faeries and the tempo and popular control version of this deck.

He worked really well for Ben Stark at Worlds in game 3 when he drew him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmJY5AlBEY (Game 3 starts around 54 minutes)

Thoughts?

Teferi could be an option...but I'm not sure it will do enough. He costs 5 where their most relevant threats cost 2 and 4 respectively, he doesn't fly, and they can simply chump block indefinitely if they're really in a bind. It's much better against a deck like ours where the reasonable body is actually a clock.


I played against faeries online and I went 1-2. Verdict is one of the best cards, making me maindeck 3 along with one wrath. Remember that my version is strictly u/w, just for reference. I felt that the match was winnable, all of the games were long grinders. Gideon is amazing against faeries, and snappy played wrath duty for the entire match.

The surprise from that deck was cavern of souls...this is a beating against this deck, red or not. The traditional lists with rex should be adjusting to include volcanic fallout.

Verdict is fine because they play creatures, but it still does nothing vs. Blossom. If we could verdict and deploy some kind of a threat we might be getting somewhere...but casting verdict and running your clock into a counterwall seems less than productive.

Volcanic Fallout is definitely something I'm looking to make room for, probably out of the board. Unfortunately they can still stick a Mistbind, which is quite problematic for us unless they tap out to do it and we're holding both a white land and a Path.

nodahero
02-10-2014, 02:41 PM
I piloted the following list to a 3-1 (7-3 in games) record.


4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Arid Mesa
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Ghost Quarter

4x Snapcaster Mage

2x Supreme Verdict
1x Pyroclasm
3x Telling Time
3x Cryptic Command
3x Mana Leak
3x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spellsnare
2x Ajani Vengeant
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Electroylze
2x Lightning Helix

SB (Terrible, I made it last second)
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Pyroclasm
1x Cryptic Command
1x Mana Leak
1x Path to Exile
1x Spell Snare
2x Shadow of Doubt
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
1x Chandra Pyromaster
1x Batterskull
2x (5 mana 5/5 flying haste dragon that zaps fliers)
1x Stony Silence


My only match loss was to Merfolk where between drawing to few lands and him have double and tripple Spreading Sea's respectively, found myself unable to cast any removal effectivly enough to pull out a win.

In order, I defeated Mono white Nykthos Control, (can't remember at the moment), and RG Tron. I lost to Merfolk in the 4th round.

Two lessons I learned, Telling Time is terrible compared to Think Twice, especially after game 1. The mini-impulse is better game 1 at the start, but the second card draw from Think Twice makes it WORLDS better overall.

Also I think I should probably drop an Electroylze for a Helix or maybe a Path. The curve was super tight in the early rounds so I feel like this would be a good adjustment especially if/when I swap in Think Twice for Telling Time.

Another note, the variety of Walker's and win cons in the board was actually handy in beating the mono white thing due to the Nevermores and Runed Halos. Also the surprise 5 haste damage was critical in beating tron in game 3 (i managed to bounce/shadow/Ghost Quarter sufficently to keep him from overwhelming me with Tron's threats till I eeked out a win through a bevy of burn to his face).

Mr. Safety
02-10-2014, 07:36 PM
Teferi could be an option...but I'm not sure it will do enough. He costs 5 where their most relevant threats cost 2 and 4 respectively, he doesn't fly, and they can simply chump block indefinitely if they're really in a bind. It's much better against a deck like ours where the reasonable body is actually a clock.



Verdict is fine because they play creatures, but it still does nothing vs. Blossom. If we could verdict and deploy some kind of a threat we might be getting somewhere...but casting verdict and running your clock into a counterwall seems less than productive.

Volcanic Fallout is definitely something I'm looking to make room for, probably out of the board. Unfortunately they can still stick a Mistbind, which is quite problematic for us unless they tap out to do it and we're holding both a white land and a Path.

All of my threats, save gideon, have flash too. A resolved gideon is VERY good against faeries. Hitting for 6 a turn is fast enough after wiping and considering lifeloss from blossom. Up to 2 gideons maindeck, dropping the elspeth, possibly forever.

nodahero
02-11-2014, 10:24 AM
Is bashing with Giddeon really an option? If you get the opening without them having a blossom active you would likely win with any threat and Giddeon is way better on defense I would wager.

If they have a blossom in play Giddeon is essentially a 1 life loss a turn attacker because they will simply block him.

I'm not saying Giddeon is poor just against Faye as an offensive weapon, he seems win more.

Arsenal
02-11-2014, 10:44 AM
I've always disliked Gideon. He's expensive, he turns on your opponent's spot removal if you +0 him, his +2 isn't guaranteed should he be removed prior to combat, etc. Everytime I've drawn him, I just wanted him to be Supreme Verdict as it's cheaper, uncounterable, and guaranteed to impact the board. I run the 2nd Ajani over Gideon as he's always been too clunky and awkward for my tastes.

nodahero
02-11-2014, 02:04 PM
What does your current list look like Arsenal? Also are you going to the modern tourney in Fond Dulac this weekend?

Arsenal
02-11-2014, 02:14 PM
What does your current list look like Arsenal? Also are you going to the modern tourney in Fond Dulac this weekend?

GOD I wish I could but I have to go up to Stevens Point, WI to visit family that came in from Houston, TX. I've been crushing my LGS in the last few weeks (11-1) and have been running super hot... :cry: My list is on the first page: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25721-Deck-WUr-Wafo-Cuneo-Draw-Go-Control&p=772807&viewfull=1#post772807

BTW, I've been nothing but impressed by Negate in the SB for the control and combo matchups. Those matchups tend to be long, grindy affairs until combo is ready to go off or control is ready to start tapping mainphase mana. In those situations, Negate is sooooooo much better than Dispel as Negate literally hits every engine and/or win condition + does work in the counter war whereas Dispel only really shines in the counter war.

Mr. Safety
02-12-2014, 06:32 AM
Playing 2 Negates in my board, very impressed. Love it. My experience, without red, is that gideon has been great. I essentially play 8 wraths and 8 cryptics...gideon gets throigh just fine. Remember, no red. I could play a baneslayer, but still have it open to removal. Gideon has bought me time to draw into wraths and is amazing post wrath.

radiowave
02-12-2014, 08:19 AM
Bitterblossom is the most powerful card in the format. It will become a thing and short of a banning stay there. Fae is incredible without BB.


The bolded seems like the biggest overestimation of a card I've seen in the Modern forums here. The card is pretty good against this deck, especially if you can't burn them out to close the game, but it's not that busted in general. It takes a long time to take over a game, and this is a format full of cards that take over (/end) the game immediately.

In the immediate term people are obviously going to play Faeries, but I have yet to see a build that has enough favorable matchups against the top decks to make up for the awful ones (should beat Affinity pretty consistently, but can't beat Zoo and seems very unfavored against Pod). I would be much more worried about Bitterblossom in GB/GBW, BW Tokens, and Team Italia decks than in Faeries, since those decks are more likely to be good in the format.

Arsenal
02-12-2014, 09:11 AM
The only Faeries deck I ever played against was Jeff Hoogland's UR Faeries. I wasn't that impressed as it ran far too many */1 dudes that just died to every removal spell I played and it's mid-late game was terribad unless he had Equipment. I believe that even Jeff said on stream that UWR Control is one of his worst matchups due to the infinite removal and powerful late game bombs it had. I'm not understanding how Faeries was incredible as it was firmly entrenched in tier 2/3 status.

nodahero
02-12-2014, 11:11 AM
While this is pure extrapolation from Standard years ago, Faye was a dominant force because of the quality of players who choose to use them.

The Faye players are typically the ones who have a very strong grasp on the game as a whole and as such are able to utilize things like V-Clique and M-CLique to amazing results.

@Aresenal--- Have you had issues with your had being clogged with Cryptics? I keep wanting to bring the 4th back to the main but it feels so awkward to have 2 in hand in the early stages when it could be something more "flexible" such as a Helix.

Arsenal
02-12-2014, 11:28 AM
Not so far, but I can definitely see why people only want to run 3. However, I really think it's our best card (Snapcaster is a close 2nd, especially now that DRS is gone) and I'm hesistant to replace it with something like a 3rd Helix, etc. I may trim my Electrolyze count to 2 and go up to 3 Helix, but I don't know, Electrolyze can be a mini-Cryptic Command some games, and it may prove to be useful should UB Fae become a thing (we already crush Zoo without too much trouble, so a 3rd Helix isn't as enticing as the 3rd Electrolyze).

radiowave
02-12-2014, 12:02 PM
The only Faeries deck I ever played against was Jeff Hoogland's UR Faeries. I wasn't that impressed as it ran far too many */1 dudes that just died to every removal spell I played and it's mid-late game was terribad unless he had Equipment. I believe that even Jeff said on stream that UWR Control is one of his worst matchups due to the infinite removal and powerful late game bombs it had. I'm not understanding how Faeries was incredible as it was firmly entrenched in tier 2/3 status.

Look at the decks in the same environments as Faeries and it'll probably become more apparent why it was good at the time. In Standard it was competing against stuff like Boat Brew and Kithkin. Look at Extended Jund with Putrid Leech, Fauna Shaman, and Demigod of Revenge compared to Jund in Modern with Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil. Then consider that Faeries doesn't really have much (maindeck) that it didn't have in Lorwyn/Shards Standard- they don't have JTMS (unlike in Extended) or Ancestral Vision (like in Time Spiral/Lorwyn).

People remember Faeries being good when it had better tools and everyone else was in the stone age relative to where they are now.

jarvisyu
02-12-2014, 12:35 PM
Look at the decks in the same environments as Faeries and it'll probably become more apparent why it was good at the time. In Standard it was competing against stuff like Boat Brew and Kithkin. Look at Extended Jund with Putrid Leech, Fauna Shaman, and Demigod of Revenge compared to Jund in Modern with Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil. Then consider that Faeries doesn't really have much (maindeck) that it didn't have in Lorwyn/Shards Standard- they don't have JTMS (unlike in Extended) or Ancestral Vision (like in Time Spiral/Lorwyn).

People remember Faeries being good when it had better tools and everyone else was in the stone age relative to where they are now.


JTMS was the worst card in Faeries.

Arsenal
02-12-2014, 03:00 PM
@radiowave

Oh, I understand that Faeries was dominant in it's respective Standard/Extended environments, but my post was in response to YamiJoey's claim that Faeries (within the context of Modern) is "incredible" even without taking Bitterblossom into consideration. I then explained that Faeries in Modern is a firm tier 2/3 deck and the only Faeries deck that sees any "success" isn't even UB.

jarvisyu
02-12-2014, 03:51 PM
@radiowave

Oh, I understand that Faeries was dominant in it's respective Standard/Extended environments, but my post was in response to YamiJoey's claim that Faeries (within the context of Modern) is "incredible" even without taking Bitterblossom into consideration. I then explained that Faeries in Modern is a firm tier 2/3 deck and the only Faeries deck that sees any "success" isn't even UB.

faeries with blossom is a completely different beast than faeries without blossom.

in addition, the lists i see people post here are for the most part not even remotely close to a real deck for UB Faeries.

nodahero
02-12-2014, 04:02 PM
I just went and did a breakdown of your list, Arsenal next to mine, and our lists are fairly identical. The only variations are as follows:
I run 2 less lands over all then you
I run 1 more Sulfur Falls and you run 3 Tecontic Edges over my two Ghost Quarters.
Then you run 1 more Arrid Mesa and 1 Island.

Spell wise, I run 1 more sweeper in Clasm then you.
I also run 3 Telling Time compared to your two Think twice (This part and the above Clasm balance out the lands vs spell count).

Then you run 1 more Cryptic over my Electrolyze.

Looking at it from this perspective it feels like your list is a bit better in the long game then I am by havign access to the backside of Think Twice and the extra Cryptic; not to mention the extra couple of lands.

My list is a little more "to the point" by getting a bit more digging in Telling Time and the cantrip in Electrolyze.

Curve wise we are essentially identical all things considered.

Also, as a side note, I fully agree with Think Twice over Telling Time unless the format speeds up considerablly, if it doesn't I think the random extra draw is better then the selection.

@JarvisYu: No disrespect, but you are completely wrong if you think UB Faye is going to be a powerhouse comperable to what it was in Standard or Extended. The deck will be good I'm sure, but not nearly what it was before.

jarvisyu
02-12-2014, 04:16 PM
I just went and did a breakdown of your list, Arsenal next to mine, and our lists are fairly identical. The only variations are as follows:
I run 2 less lands over all then you
I run 1 more Sulfur Falls and you run 3 Tecontic Edges over my two Ghost Quarters.
Then you run 1 more Arrid Mesa and 1 Island.

Spell wise, I run 1 more sweeper in Clasm then you.
I also run 3 Telling Time compared to your two Think twice (This part and the above Clasm balance out the lands vs spell count).

Then you run 1 more Cryptic over my Electrolyze.

Looking at it from this perspective it feels like your list is a bit better in the long game then I am by havign access to the backside of Think Twice and the extra Cryptic; not to mention the extra couple of lands.

My list is a little more "to the point" by getting a bit more digging in Telling Time and the cantrip in Electrolyze.

Curve wise we are essentially identical all things considered.

Also, as a side note, I fully agree with Think Twice over Telling Time unless the format speeds up considerablly, if it doesn't I think the random extra draw is better then the selection.

@JarvisYu: No disrespect, but you are completely wrong if you think UB Faye is going to be a powerhouse comperable to what it was in Standard or Extended. The deck will be good I'm sure, but not nearly what it was before.

i didn't say it would be crushing. in fact in my current testing, pod is a very difficult matchup for Faeries. things change. I'm just saying people's claims are fairly absurd when they post 22-23 land UB Faerie decks.

Arsenal
02-12-2014, 04:19 PM
I have yet to see any UB Faeries deck in Modern. I have only seen pre-Feb 7th, 2013 UR Faeries lists similar to what Jeff Hoogland has been running. Could you link me to a tourney UB Faeries decklist? I use TCDecks and I can't really find anything current for UB Faeries.

jarvisyu
02-12-2014, 06:09 PM
I have yet to see any UB Faeries deck in Modern. I have only seen pre-Feb 7th, 2013 UR Faeries lists similar to what Jeff Hoogland has been running. Could you link me to a tourney UB Faeries decklist? I use TCDecks and I can't really find anything current for UB Faeries.

how can there be lists when the banlist hasn't been in place long enough for any real tournaments to occur?

Arsenal
02-12-2014, 11:59 PM
how can there be lists when the banlist hasn't been in place long enough for any real tournaments to occur?

YamiJoey stated that Faeries was "incredible" even before BB was unbanned. I'd like to see these "incredible" Faeries lists he's talking about, pre-BB or post-BB.

JPoJohnson
02-13-2014, 12:16 AM
Faeries requires almost perfect knowledge of the opponent's deck as well as exactly right timing. The deck is powerful, but extremely hard to wield.

Arsenal
02-13-2014, 11:03 AM
Watched a bit of AJ Sacher streaming Modern UB Faeries yesterday. I wasn't really impressed as he struggled mightily versus a pretty "meh" version of Jund. He claimed that he was favored in nearly all matchups, but straight up lost to Lightning Bolt when he went for Mistbind Clique. I don't know, it seems like it could win against some stuff, but in no way did it appear to be some unstoppable juggernaut that no other deck can compete against.

Also, I tested for a few hours against Blue Zoo (ran Delver, 2 Snapcaster, a few counterspells) yesterday. Zoo, in all of it's iterations, doesn't stand much of a chance versus us. I honestly don't understand why people think Zoo is going to be a thing while UWR is in the format to keep it under control.

Davran
02-13-2014, 11:21 AM
Watched a bit of AJ Sacher streaming Modern UB Faeries yesterday. I wasn't really impressed as he struggled mightily versus a pretty "meh" version of Jund. He claimed that he was favored in nearly all matchups, but straight up lost to Lightning Bolt when he went for Mistbind Clique. I don't know, it seems like it could win against some stuff, but in no way did it appear to be some unstoppable juggernaut that no other deck can compete against.

No disrespect to AJ because he is likely a better player now than I ever will be...but how does Bolt ever stop a Mistbind? Between Mutavault, Spellstutter Sprite, Mana Leak, and Bitterblossom it should be exceedingly difficult for your opponent to prevent the Mistbind from resolving. If you're trying to run it out with one Faerie in play, no counter backup, and your opponent's open red source then you deserve your blowout. Remember, Bitterblossom is a Faerie. So sure, if they go for it and you can Electrolyze their Fae away or something, they can always just champion the blossom and you still lose.

Of course I'm mostly talking out my ass here because I haven't watched the video in question so I don't know the game state at that point...but from my own personal experience removing some other Fae in response to a Mistbind and thus blowing the competent Fae player out is rarely an option.

I maintain that UB Fae is a difficult matchup for this deck in particular. The combination of discard, a reasonable clock, and cheap, effective counters is too much for a draw-go style list that presents zero pressure in the early game.

Arsenal
02-13-2014, 11:35 AM
Idk, I haven't played against UB Faeries yet. If they're on the play and go Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Bitterblossom, that will almost guarantee us losing... but that opening line will doom many other decks too. If that opening line doesn't occur, I feel pretty good about being able to outgrind and outpermission them from turn 2 onward.

Again, just from the match I saw, it didn't really impress me that UB Faeries was struggling to beat depowered Jund. I mean, it went to the 3rd game and I think the Jund player could've actually just won had he not flipped Thrun off his Bob; that 4 life proved to be his death knell.

Mr. Safety
02-17-2014, 07:06 PM
Soorani has an article up at SCG today about straight u/w control. My only qualm with the article is his dismissal of revelation, easily one of the most powerful spells for the deck. My list is about 7 cards off his. I've been trying to figure out how to approach control mirrors and his mention of Luminarch Ascension seems tech.

Arsenal
02-18-2014, 12:38 AM
After watching Paul Cheon get crushed by Burn and Mono Green Ramp while on UB Faeries, I'm confident that UB Faeries isn't a thing.

Timber
02-24-2014, 04:01 AM
I realize that 5 cmc is tough, but what about Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir?

I must have had something right with Teferi; he jumped up by $20 this weekend. I'm glad I got one copy at $8.

I saw him in the Blue Moon deck. Did he show up anywhere else?

Davran
02-24-2014, 08:04 AM
I must have had something right with Teferi; he jumped up by $20 this weekend. I'm glad I got one copy at $8.

I saw him in the Blue Moon deck. Did he show up anywhere else?

Blue Moon deck? I must have missed that one in the coverage somewhere?

I guess I'm glad I picked up my one copy years ago for like $3 while building an EDH pile...but I guess I wish I had more now.

Timber
02-24-2014, 08:42 AM
Lee Shi Tian's UR Control deck. Some of the commentators were calling it Blue Moon.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63809

Davran
02-24-2014, 08:57 AM
Lee Shi Tian's UR Control deck. Some of the commentators were calling it Blue Moon.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63809

Oh, right. I saw that list and missed the Teferi in the board. Somehow I find it difficult to believe that the use of Teferi as a one-of sideboard bullet contributed to the $20 price spike...but who knows. There is way too much "speculation" going on right now in the secondary market. It's actually getting a little ridiculous that any random card that sees play, even out of a sideboard, is subject to an immediate gigantic price jump.

Timber
02-24-2014, 04:23 PM
I agree and as a newer player trying to break into the format, I'm super frustrated by it. I was okay with fetches being stupid expensive, but now every rare and mythic in any UXx list has increased by at least 50% in less than a month.

Phoenix Ignition
02-24-2014, 05:00 PM
If you're just buying into Modern now I wouldn't worry about a 1-of sideboard card that isn't fetchable in any way. I can't imagine Teferi becoming very big, it's a 5 cost card that doesn't end the game and doesn't affect over 1/2 of the decks in any way.

YamiJoey
02-24-2014, 05:27 PM
If you're just buying into Modern now I wouldn't worry about a 1-of sideboard card that isn't fetchable in any way. I can't imagine Teferi becoming very big, it's a 5 cost card that doesn't end the game and doesn't affect over 1/2 of the decks in any way.

Your opponent being unable to cast half of their Spells is kind of a game-ender. What are you going to do, Rev for 4 when everything I cast is uncounterable? Sure. You do that. It also means that you can Bolt your opponent to death at will and there is literally no response. No Rev, no Helix. Dead. Teferi is the best card in the control mirror. There could well be a deck that plays maindecked Teferis, Cliques, Snaps, and Masters of Waves coming up.

Davran
02-24-2014, 05:33 PM
Your opponent being unable to cast half of their Spells is kind of a game-ender. What are you going to do, Rev for 4 when everything I cast is uncounterable? Sure. You do that. It also means that you can Bolt your opponent to death at will and there is literally no response. No Rev, no Helix. Dead. Teferi is the best card in the control mirror. There could well be a deck that plays maindecked Teferis, Cliques, Snaps, and Masters of Waves coming up.

To be honest, I'm surprised this isn't already a thing. Vedalken Shackles is also pretty great in the format right now.

YamiJoey
02-24-2014, 05:35 PM
One decklist coming up! xD

Phoenix Ignition
02-24-2014, 05:58 PM
Your opponent being unable to cast half of their Spells is kind of a game-ender. What are you going to do, Rev for 4 when everything I cast is uncounterable? Sure. You do that. It also means that you can Bolt your opponent to death at will and there is literally no response. No Rev, no Helix. Dead. Teferi is the best card in the control mirror. There could well be a deck that plays maindecked Teferis, Cliques, Snaps, and Masters of Waves coming up.

Like I said, against over 1/2 of the decks in Modern it does nothing. You're focusing on the UW control mirror, but are you really thinking about it that in depth?

If you're resolving a 5 cost bomb in a control mirror, would it really make the difference to have it be this one (which gets killed by Path to Exile, Supreme Verdict, Oblivion Ring, etc AND doesn't put up a very fast clock)? I'm not saying the card is bad in the mirror, it's actually quite good if you can resolve it. The problem, once again, is that you're counting on resolving a 5cc bomb in the mirror and pretending that shuts off the opponent. If the opponent had counterspells to shut off, they will undoubtedly use them on Teferi. If the opponent had instant removal, the only card it is is Path to Exile and you'll need a hell of a good counterspell to stop that one (Mana Leak, Remand, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce don't stop it at all).

The position in which Teferi completely shuts off an opponent even in a control mirror isn't that easy to create. You need to 1) Resolve a 5cc spell through their permission, 2) Make sure your counterspells can handle their removal on their next untap step (yes, you get a full turn to set that up), and 3) Have the 3/4 beater be big enough to end the game (which can't swing through a control deck's Celestial Colonnade).

Sure, it's a good card and all but no, speculators are not right on this one.

YamiJoey
02-24-2014, 06:12 PM
You realise that your sideboard isn't in your deck for the first game, right? You get to select those cards to bring in when you need them.

They have to either Path or double Bolt it. Good luck on that one.

Also this card should definitely be worth more. I've been meaning to get rid of my spare...

Phoenix Ignition
02-24-2014, 06:27 PM
You realise that your sideboard isn't in your deck for the first game, right? You get to select those cards to bring in when you need them.
What? I don't know if you're being condescending as an argument tactic or if you really think I'm so dumb that I don't realize a sideboard is only used after you play the first game. Either way, bravo, you've made an astoundingly clever point for Teferi being a great card as a 1-of in your sideboard.


They have to either Path or double Bolt it. Good luck on that one.
As much as your single line answers are amusing to yourself, they provide no real information. Why would they need luck to Path your Teferi? Just because they have to play it as a sorcery doesn't mean you have any more ways of stopping a Path on it. In control match ups you usually do have a couple bolts sitting in your hand too, since going to the face when they're at 20 isn't usually the best move and they tend to build up.

The alternative is also to just attack through it, or leave a Colonnade up to block it. A 3/4 isn't very scary, especially at the cost of 5 mana. You could sit on an Ajani + wall/Angel depending on what you have in your list and still win easily.

Mr. Safety
02-24-2014, 07:03 PM
I kinda dig Soorani's idea of Luminarch Ascension for the control mirror. Has anyone tested it?

Also, can we safely say that this is a dtb now? It has been strong in the format consistently. In this forum only jund has gotten that designation, and it isn't even tier 1 anymore.

Arsenal
02-25-2014, 10:50 AM
I've never tested Luminarch, but that seems really, really good for the UWx Control mirror.

nodahero
02-25-2014, 12:36 PM
I remember it was really solid back when it was played in Quin lists in Legacy for grindy mirrors. I see no reason why the same wouldn't hold true in the current Modern format.

I think the real question becomes what to cut from the board to fit it in.

Mr. Safety
02-25-2014, 08:33 PM
Current sideboard:

3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Negate
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Stony Silence
2x Luminarch Ascension
2x Sower of Temptation

Sower was for tron, so those could be flex slots. I kind of want a 4th relic too. Timely has been aces against zoo and burn (hilarious with snapcaster).

Feedback? Remember that I am playing only u/w.

Davran
02-26-2014, 08:00 AM
Current sideboard:

3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Negate
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Stony Silence
2x Luminarch Ascension
2x Sower of Temptation

Sower was for tron, so those could be flex slots. I kind of want a 4th relic too. Timely has been aces against zoo and burn (hilarious with snapcaster).

Feedback? Remember that I am playing only u/w.

Man, why did I forget about Timely Reinforcements? I've been having some trouble with burn in my local meta, so I might have to give those a spin.

I'm also really liking the Anger of the Gods "tech" that came out of the pro-tour...but I'm not sure I want to go all-in on replacing my Verdicts with them.

nodahero
02-26-2014, 09:34 AM
Pertaining to Anger of the Gods... I think there are two points to consider when looking at it.

First, how prevalent are 4+ toughness destructable creatures in your metagame, if it is low then Anger is may be better. You also need to consider the threat of counters and pro-red dudes. To cover all my bases, I suppose you should consider the amount of electrolyze you also run to manipulate the 3 vs 4 toughness question.

Second, also consider if you really need access to more 3 damage spells. My list gives me access to 4 bolts and 3 helix currently plus 4 paths.

Davran
02-26-2014, 09:53 AM
Pertaining to Anger of the Gods... I think there are two points to consider when looking at it.

First, how prevalent are 4+ toughness destructable creatures in your metagame, if it is low then Anger is may be better. You also need to consider the threat of counters and pro-red dudes. To cover all my bases, I suppose you should consider the amount of electrolyze you also run to manipulate the 3 vs 4 toughness question.

Second, also consider if you really need access to more 3 damage spells. My list gives me access to 4 bolts and 3 helix currently plus 4 paths.

For me, the relevant portion of Anger of the Gods is the exile, which gives it the edge over Verdict vs. Pod and Zoo. However, I do agree that there are plenty of potential threats that Anger of the Gods doesn't necessarily answer (Mistbind Clique, Restoration Angel, Batterskull, Etched Champion and Tarmogoyf to name a few).

Maybe the "right" play is to stick with Verdict in the main and find some room for Anger in the sideboard? Then again, there are better tools vs. Pod out of the board...so maybe that's not really worth it after all. It's a tough nut to crack for sure.

nodahero
02-26-2014, 11:18 AM
I really think it depends on the meta.

I could easily see cutting Verdict for Anger in my metagame due to a serious lack of 4+ toughness threats running around. My beef with it is that I have a harder time casting Anger due to the double red requirement.

Even if it is turn 3 Verdict is alot easier on the mana. Perhaps adjusting the manabase is the correct solution.

Davran
02-26-2014, 02:47 PM
I really think it depends on the meta.

I could easily see cutting Verdict for Anger in my metagame due to a serious lack of 4+ toughness threats running around. My beef with it is that I have a harder time casting Anger due to the double red requirement.

Even if it is turn 3 Verdict is alot easier on the mana. Perhaps adjusting the manabase is the correct solution.

I actually find hitting 1WWU harder than 1RR...but that could be because I tend to fetch out red pretty early to represent (or actually cast) bolts. I suppose Anger also has the benefit of being castable through Blood Moon, whereas Verdict is 100% dead with my current mana base.

My meta is pretty variable - lots of aggro decks and generally a couple of people on some version of this deck. Overall, in the matches where I have to think about counters (Twin, the Mirror etc.) Verdict and/or Anger aren't exactly at their best, so I'm not sure how much of a consideration that really is.

nodahero
02-26-2014, 03:54 PM
Verdict is a million times better in the mirror or pseudo mirror for that matter. Anger can never kill the blink angel, and thankfully Verdict can. Additionally your anger will likely never resolve if it would actually matter.

In the UWR and Tarmotwin, Verdict can be very strong actually because most lists go for the combo as a strong plan B rather then a primary goal.

Dickman strongly supports the combo kill as a plan B and when the best Twin player says something people tend to listen if they are a good player in the first place.

Mr. Safety
02-26-2014, 07:12 PM
I really think it depends on the meta.

I could easily see cutting Verdict for Anger in my metagame due to a serious lack of 4+ toughness threats running around. My beef with it is that I have a harder time casting Anger due to the double red requirement.

Even if it is turn 3 Verdict is alot easier on the mana. Perhaps adjusting the manabase is the correct solution.

My adjusted mana base = no red. It is my opinion that red is unnecessary. I don't see bolt, ajani, and helix as worth the manabase trouble. Sideboarded anger doesn't really make sense either. I think playing a full set of path, then snapping it back as a better plan. I would play a 4th snap before i played one anger. I want my wipers to wipe in all circumstances. Anger doesn't kill etched champion or goyf.

My reasons for avoiding red (in a nutshell):

1) manabase stability, tecedge doesn't bother as much, blood moon is mitigated with 8 basics
2) all of the best cards are white and blue
3) I like the gameplan of stalling into a wiper/pw/cryptic rather than relying (mostly) on 1for1's the whole game
4) I feel that the focused sideboard is easier to manage than a more flexible sideboard that invites mana issues. It may force me into specific options, but I'm ok with that.

YamiJoey
02-27-2014, 03:24 AM
Electrolyze is one of the best Spells in Modern, alongside Counterflux. Helix and Bolt are incredible against all kinds of aggro decks. UW just doesn't have the raw power. Being able to just threaten a swift 9 on people forces them into corners, and Helix means you don't just lose the burn mirror. When you stop playing it you lose out on a way to kill the much more resilient decks (resolved Pod in topdeck mode, or Bob decks) and simply ways of removing early threats. You can't ever Bolt the Bird in UW. That's a horrific place to be in Control. If you're UW you need either R or B to deal with that.

Of course it's a skill deck so you can play basically any configuration you want and take down any given event, but whatever.

Mr. Safety
02-27-2014, 05:02 AM
I have used sunlance, which is fine for mana dorks. I just noticed that birds didn't matter if I was going to mana leak their first relevant spell anyways. Bolting the bird is fine tactics, but rote. If all I have is bolts against pod I'm sunk anyways. Making sure pod doesn't resolve is the first step to beating them. If they go into the long game as a midrange aggro deck that can be dealt with.

I am not trying to trivialize the matchup, just driving to the root of how it gets lost. I can see bolts being good but not fundamental to beating pod. If they're on the play and hit a turn 2 pod, that's the nuts for sure. At that point Path is the relevant answer to finks/voice/podded up dudes.

Valtrix
02-27-2014, 05:48 AM
Being able to burn out planeswalkers (or your opponent) is a pretty real upside to running red, in my opinion. Bolt is great tempo, Helix is great tempo/stall, and Electrolyze is pure value. Red also makes snapcaster much easier/better to use. And additionally I really think Ajani Vengeant is by far better than any other win-cons this deck could run in simply UW. i really think you underestimate the power of red here.

Given that it's modern, I also don't really see that large of an issue with "fiddling around with the mana-base" to make red work. It's pretty easy to make this happen. Tec edge is not a huge issue, since by the time you're on 4 mana you should have double of most colors, and the only issue is if for some reason you have two non-blue duals and can't find the third for cryptic. Seems somewhat like a corner-case. The only real issue I see is against blood moon, since to support red you will be running more non-basics and this can be an issue.

YamiJoey
02-27-2014, 08:40 AM
The deck I play is Blue, with Red, splashing White if you want to really drive it down. That's why Inplay Mystic Gate over anything else. I don't want much White on my board, but Verdict becomes awkward to cast, and Colonnade activations eat up White diring your turn, but it's entirely build dependant and it's purely because of he cards I play. Moving towards Anger definetly pushes me towards Cascade Bluffs to make that easier.

Sunlance was excellent when I played it in my Junk sideboard.

JPoJohnson
02-27-2014, 12:00 PM
[QUOTE=nodahero;795459]I really think it depends on the meta.

I could easily see cutting Verdict for Anger in my metagame due to a serious lack of 4+ toughness threats running around. My beef with it is that I have a harder time casting Anger due to the double red requirement.

I can see it being cut in a local meta scene, but for big events I think Verdict is supreme (ha ha:laugh:)

Anger of the Gods does destroy pods and small zoo though. I love it.

Arsenal
03-03-2014, 12:30 PM
Played in a GP Minneapolis Trial this past weekend at Nomad Game Center in Eau Claire, WI. Due to a number of factors (same day as Magic Gameday, horrible weather the evening before, etc), we only had EIGHT people show. Despite the low attendance for what was a 8-hour roundtrip drive and an overnight, non-refundable motel room booked, the store owner was super nice and sold tons of awesome singles for value prices, so the trip wasn't a complete waste. Oh yeah, about that tourney...

Main

2 Ajani Vengeant

2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Supreme Verdict

2 Think Twice
2 Sphinx’s Revelation
2 Lightning Helix
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade

Side

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
3 Wear//Tear
2 Counterflux
2 Dispel
4 Negate

This is the exact 75 I've been rolling with at FNM forever. Notice that I've cut the 3 Electrolyze completely from my list and replaced it with the 4th Path to Exile and 2 Vendilion Clique. I don't like Electrolyze right now, and for 3 mana at Instant speed, Clique has a higher impact on the game in the combo/control matchups, while being admittedly worse (but not by that much) in the fast aggro matchups.

Round 1 - Affinity

Game 1 sees my opponent on the play and open with a land (clearly on Affinity), some */1 dudes, then it's on me. I don't feel too worried as I have a Bolt + Snapcaster in my opener, which will surely allow me to reach the mid-late game. This is exactly how the game goes with me killing every relevant dude he plays. There comes a point late in the game where he has 3x Inkmoth Nexus and a Ravager. He sacs his entire board and tries to alpha strike me with Modular + Nexus infect shenanigans, but I have all the removal I need to not die.

1-0 in games. I side out some slower cards like -1 Sphinx's Revelation, -1 Cryptic Command, -3 Mana Leak for +2 Stony Silence and +3 Wear/Tear.

Game 2 sees my opponent on the play and have a strong opening of mana plus dudes. I lay a Colonnade and pass. He then casts Blood Moon on turn 2 and I do not have Wear/Tear + basic Plains in hand... this is bad. I go on for a few turns just to see if I can lucksack into my out, but it is not to be and I lose quickly.

1-1 in games. No boarding changes at all.

Game 3 sees my open with lands, Stony Silence, Wear/Tear, plus some other cards. Obviously, all I care about is Stony Silence. I lay and land and pass. My opponent opens with mana and casts a turn 1 Thorn of Amethyst. This puts a minor wrinkle in my plans, but I still feel good holding onto my sideboard cards. I lay a few more lands, eot Tear the Thron, then land Stony Silence and still have enough mana open for additional action just in case. As usual, Stony Silence just wrecks my opponent. After some number of turns, I land an Ajani, start ticking it up, then it's ggpo.

2-1 in games. 1-0 in matches.

Round 2 - Affinity

I kid you not, this round goes EXACTLY how my first round went, from the Game 2 Blood Moon wrecking me again to the Game 3 Stony Silence blowing him out again. Really crazy how similar this match was.

4-2 in games. 2-0 in matches.

Round 3 - Fast Zoo

Game 1 sees him lead off with a Wild Nacatl. My hand isn't terrible as it has a Bolt, but I'm worried as I don't have much else that matters versus him. He proceeds to turn 2 Goblin Guide, turn 3 Flinthoof Boar, turn 4 Bolt + Bolt me. I die a quick death a turn later. I was never really in this game and he curved out perfectly.

4-3 in games. I don't think I boarded anything in or out. Could've, but nothing rings a bell.

Game 2 sees me open with a healthy mix of removal and cheap counters. As UWR does, I kill/counter everything relevant and draw the game out until Ajani takes over. My opponent was never in this game.

5-3 in games.

Game 3 sees him open with a Wild Nacatl. I lay a fetchland instead of a Colonnade, then pass. I did this as I wanted to be able to Path the Nacatl if he went for another turn 2 Goblin Guide. On his second turn, he attacks with Nacatl and then tries to Ghor-Clan Rampager his Nacatl. This is the first time I've seen that from him and I'm thankful I laid my fetch instead of Colonnade. I Path it in response and the game basically ends there as he's never able to pressure my life total as I'm laying more lands, killing/countering the couple threats he plays, etc.

6-3 in games. 3-0 in matches. I initially am told that I've won the tourney and the 2 GP byes are mine, but then a few minutes later, the store owner announces that due to some ties/pairing shenangians with #2-4, there is a playoff required. So we basically have cut to Top 4 for an EIGHT man tourney. I'm floored, but accept it.

Round "4" - UR Twin This rounds sees me paired up against a buddy who rode up with me from Milwaukee, WI. We've played this matchup dozens of times pre-board/post-board and I'm heavily favored. He knows it, I know it, but we still just laugh at the situation.

Game 1 sees him draw into nothing while I eot Clique him, then start getting in with Colonnade. Colonnade finishes him off as he had literally nothing but blanks.

7-3 in games. I board out -2 Verdict, -2 Think Twice, -1 Sphinx's Revelation, -2 Lightning Helix, -3 Mana Leak and board in +4 Negate, +3 Wear/Tear, +1 Dispel, +2 Counterflux.

Game 2 sees us have this long, drawn out game (always the case in this matchup) where I Ajani -7 him, but he casts a bunch of Flash dudes in response. I think he has 3-4 dudes total, with no lands in play. I'm holding onto a couple Negate and not much else. I slowly die to his dudes as I don't have Colonnade or removal.

7-4 in games. No boarding changes.

Game 3 sees me open with Hallowed Fountain, Island and tons of action like multiple Wear/Tear, Path, multiple Snapcaster. I proceed to draw a second Hallowed Fountain, then don't draw anymore lands for the rest of the game. He plays two Blood Moon, but I'm able to float White mana and Wear it both times. I try to Path my Snapcaster in order to get to my 4th mana, but he casts Pact of Negation. I have 1 chance to draw a Tectonic Edge in order to win the game (Edge his 5th land, he loses on his upkeep), but it was not to be. There's a turn late in the game where he goes for the Exarch kill completely naked and I'm ready to blow him out with Snapcaster --> Wear... but he plays Kiki-Jiki instead and I lose. It's slightly frustrating to lose to variance with such a favored matchup across from me, but at least it's to a teammate and we all had a good time.

7-5 in games. 3-1 in matches.

Overall, I'm very happy with UWR Control in the current meta. I anticipate seeing more Twin in the coming months leading up to GP Minneapolis and I feel that we have a very favorable matchup versus them pre-board and post-board.

DalamarTheDark
03-05-2014, 02:35 PM
I kinda dig Soorani's idea of Luminarch Ascension for the control mirror. Has anyone tested it?

Also, can we safely say that this is a dtb now? It has been strong in the format consistently. In this forum only jund has gotten that designation, and it isn't even tier 1 anymore.


Seems like Luminarch Ascension wouldn't cut it when your opponent has 9-11 burn spells (UWR) and Snapcasters they can play early. :-(

Don't get me wrong, I love Luminarch Ascension, but I think the format would need to be overrun with slow midrange and control decks in order for this card to be good. I don't even think it's fast enough vs. Storm to pressure them.

DalamarTheDark
03-05-2014, 02:51 PM
My adjusted mana base = no red. It is my opinion that red is unnecessary. I don't see bolt, ajani, and helix as worth the manabase trouble. Sideboarded anger doesn't really make sense either. I think playing a full set of path, then snapping it back as a better plan. I would play a 4th snap before i played one anger. I want my wipers to wipe in all circumstances. Anger doesn't kill etched champion or goyf.

My reasons for avoiding red (in a nutshell):

1) manabase stability, tecedge doesn't bother as much, blood moon is mitigated with 8 basics
2) all of the best cards are white and blue
3) I like the gameplan of stalling into a wiper/pw/cryptic rather than relying (mostly) on 1for1's the whole game
4) I feel that the focused sideboard is easier to manage than a more flexible sideboard that invites mana issues. It may force me into specific options, but I'm ok with that.

Unfortunately, that "mana base trouble" is why Shaun McLauren won the Pro Tour. In other words, Electrolyze, Ajani, Lightning Bolt, etc. ARE worth the splash. Being able to sometimes go over the top and just burn people out is an advantage. Besides, you don't need "wrath" effects to answer everything, just the cards you actually care about.

As much as I do like Blue/White myself, unless the format slows down and midrange decks come back into favor, the red is absolutely worth it.

Reasons for playing red:

1) Mana base is actually pretty stable with all the duals and 6-8 fetch lands. Blood Moon is mitigated by being a known quantity now.
2) Get to play all the best blue and white cards too, plus awesome red cards.
3) Game plan, while match up dependent, is roughly the same. The 1-for-1's are irrelevant given the existence of Snapcaster Mage.
4) Shaun McLaren's sideboard is brilliant. He wanted powerful one-of answers that, when drawn, will likely completely blow the game wide open - and they sure did.



Electrolyze is one of the best Spells in Modern, alongside Counterflux. Helix and Bolt are incredible against all kinds of aggro decks. UW just doesn't have the raw power. Being able to just threaten a swift 9 on people forces them into corners, and Helix means you don't just lose the burn mirror. When you stop playing it you lose out on a way to kill the much more resilient decks (resolved Pod in topdeck mode, or Bob decks) and simply ways of removing early threats. You can't ever Bolt the Bird in UW. That's a horrific place to be in Control. If you're UW you need either R or B to deal with that.

Of course it's a skill deck so you can play basically any configuration you want and take down any given event, but whatever.


Correct. Even with the presence of more 3-power creatures, Electrolyze is still good. Don't cut them [all]. I like three.

Arsenal
03-05-2014, 03:49 PM
Lightning Bolt is the litmus test to which all creatures need to either withstand (4 toughness) or bypass (Geist, Persist dudes, etc). I'm not sold that a deck running Snapcaster shouldn't be running Lightning Bolt.

YamiJoey
03-05-2014, 05:27 PM
Seems like Luminarch Ascension wouldn't cut it when your opponent has 9-11 burn spells (UWR) and Snapcasters they can play early. :-(

Don't get me wrong, I love Luminarch Ascension, but I think the format would need to be overrun with slow midrange and control decks in order for this card to be good. I don't even think it's fast enough vs. Storm to pressure them.

If Luminarch Ascension is forcing my opponent to dome me with Bolts every turn I think it's doing a fairly good job of whatever the hell it's doing. I am actually more tempted to play it if this is how people beat it, because it just makes your Revs even more devastating.

I mean, how many UWR players are keeping all of their Burn in G2 against a deck with Rev?

Arsenal
03-05-2014, 05:29 PM
I usually keep 2-4 Bolts in, just because there are always times where Bolt, Snapcaster + Bolt can just devastate my UWR opponent if he slips up even a little. But yeah, I definitely board out my Helix and I've cut Electrolyze completely in favor of Clique (a card which can just blowout your UWR opponent sometimes).

YamiJoey
03-06-2014, 11:33 AM
I disagree with cutting Electros for Clique, because if they keep in Electro their cards in those slots are outright better than yours. Electro allows you to recoup the damage from Snapcaster Mages, and Clique is good anyway. It also combos with a Bolt to kill Teferi when needed. (Hopefully they used all of their countermagic just casting it.)

I generally only end up with a few burn Spells in my deck post board, most of them being Electrolyze. I pitch the Bolts in favour of Helix. The splash damage from Snare is kind of awkward, but a Snare on a Helix means a resolved Snapcaster Mage, so I'm fine with that. I've not actually played with UWR under the new list, as I'm not able to truly pin down anywhere near a 75 that I truly want to play, but I was also playing Shamanless Junk last week which was miserable and am just being given a combo deck to play with this week, so who even knows. I'm concentrating on finishing my Legacy deck.

Generally, I bring in the third Helix from my board, and pull out all four Bolts. That leaves room for additional Vendilion Cliques (Depending on how many I have mained) and the Tectonic Edge. I then pull in more Counterspells for a little removal (Sweepers etc.) and much of the rest remains the same. Sometimes I have Teferi, sometimes I have 'Walkers, and sometimes I have Negate, but I usually only end up boarding around 5 cards, 4 of which are Lightning Bolts going south.

Arsenal
03-06-2014, 12:38 PM
In the current meta, Electrolyze is pretty "meh". Some games it'll be a blowout, other games it'll be a cycler. I have never drawn a Clique and thought to myself "Man, I really want this to be Electrolyze" whereas I've had many situations where I've drawn Electrolyze and said "I really want this to be exactly Clique". The situations where this comes up the most often is when I have Ajani Vengeant in hand.

End step Clique forces my control opponent to either (a.) counter the Clique, tapping him low, or (b.) let the Clique resolve and now I have a 3/1 flyer on board and I get to grab his best card/counter. If (a.) occurs, I can now untap and definitely resolve Ajani V. If (b.) occurs, I can untap and probably resolve Ajani V. Now, if that was Electrolyze end step, my opponent would shrug and move his dice from 20 to 18. I've cut Electrolyze when the DRS-ban came down and haven't missed them at all.

Mr. Safety
03-12-2014, 02:40 PM
Soorani took 9th at Richmond without red. I'm looking to his list moving forward, but I have a hard time not including rev.

Davran
03-12-2014, 02:58 PM
Soorani took 9th at Richmond without red. I'm looking to his list moving forward, but I have a hard time not including rev.

I saw his list, and I like the direction he's gone with it...but I can't for the life of me figure out what the singleton Last Breath in his board is for. Murderous Redcap maybe out of Pod? Every relevant creature I can think of has 3 power or some sort of protection (i.e. Etched Champion, Geist). It's hardly the best answer against Twin decks, it does nothing to Tron, Zoo, Fae, UWR...so I have to be missing something incredibly obvious, or he just couldn't decide on a 15th card and he found Last Breath in someone's Theros draft leavings.

Phoenix Ignition
03-12-2014, 04:00 PM
I saw his list, and I like the direction he's gone with it...but I can't for the life of me figure out what the singleton Last Breath in his board is for.

This is annoying me now. Would it be a card that does damage vs both pod and splinter twin? It's instant speed, and hits all of non-green twin, while stopping a few key cards in Pod. With 4 Paths if you wanted another instant removal that isn't damage based, would this be the card you want?

YamiJoey
03-12-2014, 08:11 PM
Soorani was playing Walker midrange. It hapens to be Blue and run Counterspells. It is not a UW Control deck, it should be discussed elsewhere.

Mr. Safety
03-12-2014, 09:21 PM
Soorani was playing Walker midrange. It hapens to be Blue and run Counterspells. It is not a UW Control deck, it should be discussed elsewhere.

Are you serious? Had me fooled...especially after reading his article and he himself calling it control.

Regarding last breath: obvious fifth path is obvious.

YamiJoey
03-13-2014, 04:19 AM
Wasn't he playing something like 5-6 Planeswalkers and tapping out every turn?

Because I thought this said 'Draw Go Control'.

Mr. Safety
03-13-2014, 09:35 AM
Wasn't he playing something like 5-6 Planeswalkers and tapping out every turn?

Because I thought this said 'Draw Go Control'.

Good point. There is quite a distinction in how the deck plays out. Yeah, he had 6 walkers.

YamiJoey
03-13-2014, 01:10 PM
I just looked over his list and if someone showed me that at an FNM I would tell them that their deck was a mess and what the fuck are they doing playing 4 Spell Snares. I'd love to get some comments about whether his choices were due to it being a strong list etc. or because he was trying to shore up his game against a 4,000 person tournament. It looks so wacky and all over the place.

But that being said; what do people think of the 4 Spell Snares? It counters a hell of a lot as has been discussed between me and a few others in my play group. We can't think of a deck it's bad against, possibly parting Pod where we don't really like any of our countermagic apart from when we open Bolt/Path -> Mana Leak.

Arsenal
03-13-2014, 01:21 PM
I've been on 3 Snare since forever. I can definitely get behind 3-4 maindeck Snare right now. It's good against the entire field.

Davran
03-13-2014, 01:26 PM
I've been on 3 Snare since forever. I can definitely get behind 3-4 maindeck Snare right now. It's good against the entire field.

I'm at 3 Snare in my main deck right now too.

YamiJoey
03-13-2014, 01:39 PM
So apparently we're the only ones who were scared to commit to the Snares. Good to know. (TBH I've also not played this deck for three months.)

Arsenal
05-15-2014, 02:37 PM
I finished a disappointing 4-5 at GP Minneapolis 2014. Even more frustrating was that I started 3-0 (no byes), but it was just not to be. I played against Melira Pod twice (1-1), BGx twice (1-1), UWR Midrange twice (0-2), Storm once (0-1), Affinity once (1-0) and Burn once (1-0).

Davran
05-15-2014, 02:46 PM
I finished a disappointing 4-5 at GP Minneapolis 2014. Even more frustrating was that I started 3-0 (no byes), but it was just not to be. I played against Melira Pod twice, BGx twice, UWR Midrange twice, Storm once, Affinity once and Burn once.

Out of curiosity, what was your list like if you don't mind sharing? I've been doing poorly myself lately...though the local FNM meta is hardly representative of anything. I'm starting to wonder if the deck is too "known" or something. It seems like everyone has the perfect plan against us and I'm left hoping to draw my way out of it.

Arsenal
05-15-2014, 02:48 PM
My current 75:

Main

2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Supreme Verdict

2 Think Twice
2 Sphinx’s Revelation
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade

Side

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hallowed Burial
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear//Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
1 Dispel
3 Negate

I still do very well at FNM, typically going 3-1 or 4-0, but I did not have Hallowed Burial at GP Minneapolis as vendors were sold out and I couldn't borrow any. This greatly hurt me as I needed more sweepers in the Pod and BGx losses I took. I now have 2 in the board and I think that'll improve those matchups.

Davran
05-15-2014, 02:56 PM
Snip List.

I still do very well at FNM, typically going 3-1 or 4-0, but I did not have Hallowed Burial at GP Minneapolis as vendors were sold out and I couldn't borrow any. This greatly hurt me as I needed more sweepers in the Pod and BGx losses I took. I now have 2 in the board and I think that'll improve those matchups.

So we're pretty much in the same place main deck wise. I've got a pair of Vendilion Cliques where you have a 2nd Think Twice and the 4th Path to Exile. I've actually been considering removing the Cliques for a while now - do you miss the extra bodies at all?

How has your board been working out for you? I haven't hit 15 cards I'm happy with yet. My current sideboard is all over the place:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wear // Tear
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
2 Counterflux
1 Damping Matrix
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Sowing Salt
1 Batterskull
1 Stormbreath Dragon

What I really need is some way to combat 8 Rack - there's 2 people playing that in my local meta and it's absolutely brutal. I've been thinking about Engineered Explosives or something, but that doesn't really stop the hand disruption.

Arsenal
05-15-2014, 03:24 PM
I used to run 2 Clique maindeck from when Nacatl was unbanned until about 2 weeks ago. I thought he was okay, but never really impressed me that much. I have since moved him completely out of my 75 and added back in the 2 Electrolyze that were previously benched. I personally think 4 Path to Exile is correct maindeck; there are simply too many decks in the meta that all have a must-answer creature that Bolt/Helix/Electrolyze can't always answer effectively/efficiently (Goyf, Master of Etherium, Deceiver Exarch, Phyrexian Obliterator, etc).

My SB is tailored to my meta, so I don't know what you should/shouldn't be doing with yours.

Davran
05-15-2014, 03:38 PM
I see the following pretty regularly:

The Mirror
UWR "Delver" - it's essentially the mirror, except he has Figures of Destiny, Delver, and Geist.
Twin
8 Rack
Burn
UR Delver (not so common anymore)
UB Fae
RG Tron
Affinity
UW/UG Hatebears

There's very rarely someone playing a GW Pod list that's essentially a slightly modified version of the deck when it was in standard, and the kid with the Tron deck also has Infect he rolls out from time to time.

I have a reasonable record vs. the mirror and twin, though I find that the matches always come down to either turns or whomever drew the least number of bricks.

The UWR delver thing is tough to beat unless I draw a Verdict.

8 Rack and Fae are pretty abysmal for me.

I'm generally about 50/50 vs. the random creature decks - their pilots aren't the best players, and I feel like this deck is strong vs. them in general.

Phoenix Ignition
05-15-2014, 06:01 PM
What I really need is some way to combat 8 Rack - there's 2 people playing that in my local meta and it's absolutely brutal. I've been thinking about Engineered Explosives or something, but that doesn't really stop the hand disruption.

In my experience you don't really need to combat the discard, their only win condition is the 8 racks. If you can clear those they have either bob beats or liliana ults which really doesn't do anything. If you can keep the 8 racks off the board you should win. Aside from that you can always be cute (4x Obstinate Baloth/Wilt-Leaf Liege/Loxodon Smiter with a 1-of breeding pool), or try to land your own planeswalkers, though that plan doesn't work if they have a good hand. Also, something that stops Raven Crime can be helpful but I wouldn't really count on it.

In short, play the top deck game, clear their 8 racks. They have so many cards that do nothing that you only need to worry about those 8.

Davran
05-15-2014, 06:38 PM
In my experience you don't really need to combat the discard, their only win condition is the 8 racks. If you can clear those they have either bob beats or liliana ults which really doesn't do anything. If you can keep the 8 racks off the board you should win. Aside from that you can always be cute (4x Obstinate Baloth/Wilt-Leaf Liege/Loxodon Smiter with a 1-of breeding pool), or try to land your own planeswalkers, though that plan doesn't work if they have a good hand. Also, something that stops Raven Crime can be helpful but I wouldn't really count on it.

In short, play the top deck game, clear their 8 racks. They have so many cards that do nothing that you only need to worry about those 8.

Yeah, I was sort of thinking along those lines already with my previous sideboard plan. I'd bring in the Wear // Tears and Grafdigger's Cage, and then rely on Cryptic Command and Snapcaster but it was never really enough. This week I think I'm going to give Engineered Explosives a shot - I'm not really sure why I didn't think of it sooner.

I might try Rest in Peace too since it's particularly brutal when they have Extirpate or something for a discarded/destroyed Colonnade since all of their Doom Blades pretty much rot in their hand until we're ready to attack. It's far from the norm, but I once had a game where I purposely left up counter mana for the Victim of Night or whatever and he had a pair of them followed by the Extirpate.

It would be pretty hilarious to board into Loxodon Smiters though...I don't think they'd see that coming at all.

Phoenix Ignition
05-15-2014, 08:30 PM
One other thing I forgot to mention is Leyline of Sanctity. It'll stop them from emptying your hand, which means you get a free win. They still have some discard that works, smallpox, liliana, but other than that you should still be able to keep 3+ cards in hand.

Davran
05-16-2014, 09:18 AM
Leyline is probably a good choice too...but I refuse to pay $20 for that card, let alone $60 for 3 of them. It's good, but it's not that good.

I think I'm going to give this a shot tonight:

1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
2 Negate
1 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Counterflux
1 Damping Matrix
1 Batterskull
1 Hallowed Burial

It's still all over the place, but so is my meta. I think the most glaring omission is some sort of graveyard hate...but there aren't very many Goyfs running around so it should be fine.

Phoenix Ignition
05-16-2014, 12:58 PM
If you're sure you'll face 8 racks or normally do, I don't think you're doing enough in the SB for it. The one place you look overprepared is with 2 Negate and 2 Counterflux. With 3 Snares, some mana leaks, and 4 cryptics I would think taking out those negates to replace them with whatever is giving you trouble would be straight up better. If it's UR storm you could run Rest in Peace as an alternative to extra countermagic, and gives you some added benefits against pod/8racks/living end. Counterflux should be enough against whatever you're sideboarding it in against, though I guess I don't know exactly what your plan is.

Running more EEs could be fine against stuff like Zoo, and having multiples at 1 would win against the racks deck. I don't know how prevalent burn is in your metagame, but Timely Reinforcements is a pretty great card and could stall against stuff like 8 racks too.

Davran
05-16-2014, 01:24 PM
If you're sure you'll face 8 racks or normally do, I don't think you're doing enough in the SB for it. The one place you look overprepared is with 2 Negate and 2 Counterflux. With 3 Snares, some mana leaks, and 4 cryptics I would think taking out those negates to replace them with whatever is giving you trouble would be straight up better. If it's UR storm you could run Rest in Peace as an alternative to extra countermagic, and gives you some added benefits against pod/8racks/living end. Counterflux should be enough against whatever you're sideboarding it in against, though I guess I don't know exactly what your plan is.

Running more EEs could be fine against stuff like Zoo, and having multiples at 1 would win against the racks deck. I don't know how prevalent burn is in your metagame, but Timely Reinforcements is a pretty great card and could stall against stuff like 8 racks too.

Thanks for the suggestions.

My plan for 8 rack was something like:

-1 Electrolyze, -2 Supreme Verdict

+2 Wear // Tear, +1 Engineered Explosives

Negate is sort of my catch-all. I like them more than Mana Leak in matches that go long (the mirror) or vs. decks like Tron where any reasonably competent opponent can easily play around the Leak. That said, you're probably right in that they're not necessary.

I did consider a second copy of EE since sticking at 0, 1, 2, or 3 is relevant vs. such a wide range of decks.

I played UW Tron for a while back when it was "good" and Timely Reinforcements was generally a pretty big game vs. some decks. That said, I'm not sure how useful it is vs. 8 racks. I'm certainly not letting a Bob stick around if I can help it, so it's mostly 3 mana for 6 life since they don't really have a beatdown squad or anything.

I'm trying to stay as broad as possible with respect to my board - there's usually a couple of homebrews running around that are nigh impossible to metagame against, so I like having options out of the board. I can be reasonably sure that there will be at least one 8 rack player and one burn player. Last time I played there were actually 2 guys on 8 rack. It doesn't sound like much, but there are typically around 10 of us or so for modern FNM, so the odds of facing any given deck are relatively high.

After talking it out, I think I'll drop the Negates for a second EE and a Rest in Peace.

That'll make the board plan something like:

-1 Electrolyze, -2 Supreme Verdicts, -1 Path to Exile

+2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Wear // Tear

Do you think it's worth bringing Rest in Peace in for this match-up? It stops Raven's Crime cold and prevents any Extirpate/Surgical Extraction shenanigans with our Colonnades...but it also shuts off Snapcaster vs. a discard deck.

JPoJohnson
05-16-2014, 02:24 PM
After talking it out, I think I'll drop the Negates for a second EE and a Rest in Peace.

That'll make the board plan something like:

-1 Electrolyze, -2 Supreme Verdicts, -1 Path to Exile

+2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Wear // Tear

Do you think it's worth bringing Rest in Peace in for this match-up? It stops Raven's Crime cold and prevents any Extirpate/Surgical Extraction shenanigans with our Colonnades...but it also shuts off Snapcaster vs. a discard deck.

I think your plan is good. I wouldn't personally side in Rest in Peace in this matchup because I think Snapcaster is more useful than Colonnade since many 8-racks run so many Ensnaring Bridges and I would rather deal with racks than bridges if I had to focus on one or the other and keeping Snapcaster's Active allows you so much more reach against them or against Lili's with your 8+ burn spells and gets under bridge easier than any other creature the deck runs.

Having said that, I really do think Leyline of Sanctity is worth having a playset of. Your meta isn't the absolute best to run it against, but it is so powerful and causes so many decks to just fold to you off the bat dropping it against them. But yeah, I think your sideboard plan looks good (:

Davran
05-16-2014, 02:59 PM
I think your plan is good. I wouldn't personally side in Rest in Peace in this matchup because I think Snapcaster is more useful than Colonnade since many 8-racks run so many Ensnaring Bridges and I would rather deal with racks than bridges if I had to focus on one or the other and keeping Snapcaster's Active allows you so much more reach against them or against Lili's with your 8+ burn spells and gets under bridge easier than any other creature the deck runs.

Having said that, I really do think Leyline of Sanctity is worth having a playset of. Your meta isn't the absolute best to run it against, but it is so powerful and causes so many decks to just fold to you off the bat dropping it against them. But yeah, I think your sideboard plan looks good (:

Crap, I forgot all about Ensnaring Bridge. Then again, I don't think I've ever had one resolve against me...so they're either not drawing them or siding them out.

Leyline is certainly a good card, and I probably should own a playset. I'm just loathe to shell out $20 a pop for what is a 100% reprintable sideboard card that only marginally improves certain matchups.

dunk
05-16-2014, 06:14 PM
My current 75:

Main

2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Supreme Verdict

2 Think Twice
2 Sphinx’s Revelation
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade

Side

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hallowed Burial
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear//Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
1 Dispel
3 Negate

I still do very well at FNM, typically going 3-1 or 4-0, but I did not have Hallowed Burial at GP Minneapolis as vendors were sold out and I couldn't borrow any. This greatly hurt me as I needed more sweepers in the Pod and BGx losses I took. I now have 2 in the board and I think that'll improve those matchups.

A couple of things that are, at least in my opinion, wrong with your list. Playstyles may vary, but I think a different approach is better in this case, even though it's a control deck at heart.

Anyway, I suggest running more creatures. I can't believe you cut Clique, it's slightly worse in Modern than in Legacy but still a house. Rarely do I board any out, the card is just too versatile and has won me too many games by itself and it's a potent in clearing the way for a Revelation or Ajani. I'd also consider running 1 Restoration Angel as they work niceley together with your other crits and are very useful on their own both as one of the best blockers in the format and a very suitable attacker. Being able to put up a fast clock with Clique / Angel and Colonnade is an important angle of attack that the deck shouldn't lack. While the deck often likes dragged out games there are enough other decks that are good at grinding, too, and there are several kinds of combo decks against which having a clock is often better than drawing an additional counter.

The first card I would cut to make room for some additional beats is clearly Think Twice. That card shouldn't be played by anyone in Modern as cycling twice is not on the same level as the other effects the format bears and I would rather affect the board or disrupt my opponent than not being able to do anything with my card but cycle it. If you are looking to play another cantrip I would rather play Remand (even though I would say it gets more value the more creatures you play), more Electrolyze (which at least help your Counterburn strategy) or Serum Visions (I played the card for some time and it was not bad, but I prefered having more impactful cards and more options; Visions improves greatly after sideboarding though).

I'm also not a big fan of Supreme Verdict. Is it good against anything in particular? Unless UR Delver is big in your meta I'd rather have Anger of the Gods. In general I'm not really impressed by Wrath effects maindeck though.

Last small thing about your maindeck: I'd cut a Fetchland for another m10 Dual, probably Glacial Fortress. What I like about the deck is that really has more mana than any other non - Tron and that it can relatively easy save life on lands, despite its slow character. Another real land ensures less damage and more mana in longer games.

Concerning your sideboard, it just looks like a mess to me. No idea what Hallowed Burial and 6 Counterspells are supposed to do. I'd rather vary my answers and add some gravehate, maybe exchange Mindcensor with Shadow of Doubt, add some land destruction (I like having acces to a 4th Edge in my Sideboard, it also helps as an additional land in mirrors) and vary my removal more. For sure you will never need 3 Negate, actually they can be quite bad at times. I'd rather have Cliques which do double duty as disruption and threat.

Arsenal
05-18-2014, 04:55 AM
You and I definitely have different playstyles and card evaluations indeed. I have never once wanted more creatures in UWR Control. By playing only 4 creatures, which are actually just pseudo-noncreature spells, you generate virtual card advantage by making your opponents' removal spells (Abrupt Decay, Flame Slash, etc) largely dead Game 1. I cannot think of too many matchups where I ever want to be the aggressor. I ran a config of 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique for a couple months and didn't really find Clique to be that impressive.

Think Twice allows you to generate actual card advantage and also lets you keep loaded 2-land hands. Many, many UWR Control lists have historically been running 1-2 Think Twice (http://tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=UWR%20Control&format=Modern). I never have been disappointed by having a Think Twice in my opener, and it's great to see in the late game as well whereas drawing a Remand on turn 11 seems mostly terrible.

Verdict is a meta call. It's fantastic versus BGx Midrange, is guaranteed to resolve versus Affinity (they play Pierce out of the board) while making Etched Champion extra dead, and has more game against decks like Living End, TarmoTwin, etc than Anger of the Gods maindeck does. 1UWW on turn 4 is also typically easier to reliably hit via fetches/natural draws as opposed to 1RR on turn 3.

I've definitely considered cutting an Arid Mesa for a Glacial Fortress. Something I'll consider testing for sure, but being able to maximize my chances of hitting basic Plains (Wear/Tear) has been pretty big as I see a lot of Blood Moon in my meta.

Hallowed Burial is for Boggles and Pod, and just more sweepers for creature decks. */4 is a thing as Pod can easily Township their team beyond Anger range and Affinity just doesn't care with their Etched Champion draws. 6 counterspells is for the control/combo matchups where I've boarded out most of my removal. Negate has been an MVP for me in the control/combo matchups, I'm not sure why you think it would be bad when my opponent is jamming Ajani/Scapeshift/Splinter Twin/Blood Moon/Pyromancer's Ascension/Past in Flames/Karn/Mindslaver/Gifts/etc. Counterflux allows me to win counter wars/overload for Storm or just guarantee that a crucial spell in the control/combo matchup does not resolve. Dispel is just a 1cc hard counter in the control mirror when I'm trying to win the counterwar or not get blown out by Sphinx's Revelation for 4+ on my end step.

Why would I need more removal from my sideboard when I'm already running 4 Path, 4 Bolt, 2 Verdict, 2 Helix, 2 Electrolyze + 4 Snap in the maindeck, then 2 Hallowed Burial + 1 Anger of the Gods in the sideboard? How much spot/sweeper removal do you think UWR Control should be playing in the 75? I configure my maindeck to mostly crush aggro/creature based strategies, then board into control/combo crusher, or I can supplement my creature-hate with even more sweepers.

dunk
05-18-2014, 05:51 AM
I'm mostly fine by my Clique trading for removal as I value the information of their hand, coupled with a way to get rid of something that I can't handle yet higher than a potential 1-1 trade. There are also enough situations where they don't have an answer and it gets you closer to just finishing them off with Bolts. I think cards in Modern should be as flexible as possible and that every succesful deck should be able to switch modes depending on what's going on. Counterspells lose value if you don't represent a clock and smart opponents are usually able to evade the one or other counterspell. There are certain metagames in which it loses a lot of value, though. I remember when everyone ran Lingering Souls and me also cutting the Cliques. But these days I think it's a fantastic card.

If BG midrange seems big in your meta then sure, keep the Verdict. I guess you are running the Hallowed Burial in your sideboard not only to deal with Pod but also to deal with Thrun. Might be ok, but in my opinion they are all quite expensive. I guess you can extended the game with spot removal until you got to 6-10 mana before you cast a Wrath.

Think Twice has just never impressed me, I prefer my cards to do more than just cycle though. It's probably ok to ensure your land drops.

Have you ever considered running 27 land or maybe an addtional land in your sideboard? In your deck I would seriously think about a 4th Edge somewhere in my 75, both to outmana my opponents and more options to deal with manlands or stuff like Scapeshift, not to mention the games where you just screw them out of the game.

Regarding your sideboard, I don't think or ever said you need more removal than the addtional 3 that you already have. I just prefer more diverse and flexible answers. Many of my sideboards contain 10-15 different cards :D At least I would think about an Engineered Explosives. The problem with it is of course that it's not a card against Jund or Pod. I have hard times imagining that a 5 mana answer is really playable though.

Davran
05-19-2014, 10:04 AM
I ran a config of 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique for a couple months and didn't really find Clique to be that impressive.

I'm with Arsenal here. I can't tell you the number of times Clique has been a 3 mana Gitaxian Probe (opponent Bolts it in response to the trigger) or "target player discards an otherwise useless Mana Leak". The bit dunk said above there about "sometimes the opponent doesn't have an answer" is very rarely the case in my experience as 95% of their removal is otherwise dead against us, so they tend to accumulate it in hand until we present a body.


Think Twice allows you to generate actual card advantage and also lets you keep loaded 2-land hands. Many, many UWR Control lists have historically been running 1-2 Think Twice (http://tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=UWR%20Control&format=Modern). I never have been disappointed by having a Think Twice in my opener, and it's great to see in the late game as well whereas drawing a Remand on turn 11 seems mostly terrible.

I like Think Twice as well - it's nice to have it in hand when you pass with Cryptic Command mana up and your opponent doesn't do anything worth countering, or sitting in the graveyard when you've got a whole pile of lands and really need that Cryptic/Snapcaster/Bolt/whatever.


As for Supreme Verdict - I've actually wanted a 3rd in some matches, which has led me to stick Anger of the Gods in my board. Maybe it's a meta thing, but I really only take them out vs. stuff like 8 Racks and Twin. They're useful in most of the other matches I play.



I've definitely considered cutting an Arid Mesa for a Glacial Fortress. Something I'll consider testing for sure, but being able to maximize my chances of hitting basic Plains (Wear/Tear) has been pretty big as I see a lot of Blood Moon in my meta.

It's funny that you should mention this - I had this exact situation come up at FNM this week. I've been playing 3 Mesa 1 Glacial Fortress forever because I only own 3 Mesas. Most of the time it's been fine, and it's nice to have a UW land that comes in untapped without a 2-3 life payment. This week though, I would have preferred that the Glacial Fortress be an Arid Mesa almost every time I drew it. In one match, it was absolutely because of Blood Moon. In the rest, I was in desperate need of red mana for whatever reason. That said, I don't think I would take this as evidence that 4 Mesa is the "right" configuration as I think my need for red mana was mostly due to normal variance.


Hallowed Burial is for Boggles and Pod, and just more sweepers for creature decks. */4 is a thing as Pod can easily Township their team beyond Anger range and Affinity just doesn't care with their Etched Champion draws. 6 counterspells is for the control/combo matchups where I've boarded out most of my removal. Negate has been an MVP for me in the control/combo matchups, I'm not sure why you think it would be bad when my opponent is jamming Ajani/Scapeshift/Splinter Twin/Blood Moon/Pyromancer's Ascension/Past in Flames/Karn/Mindslaver/Gifts/etc. Counterflux allows me to win counter wars/overload for Storm or just guarantee that a crucial spell in the control/combo matchup does not resolve. Dispel is just a 1cc hard counter in the control mirror when I'm trying to win the counterwar or not get blown out by Sphinx's Revelation for 4+ on my end step.

This sideboard discussion is all fine since sideboards are 100% meta dependent (or they should be anyway). I will throw in my 0.02 about Counterflux though - the card has never been anything less than a blowout. I absolutely love it vs. Twin and the mirror. It's also potentially very useful vs. Storm, but I don't have much experience playing against it. In my opinion, the first two slots in pretty much any UWR control sideboard should be taken up by Counterflux, with the other 13 filling in the rest of the holes presented by your own meta.


As long as I'm here, some quick thoughts from FNM:

I tried out Arsenal's list with one minor substitution (Arid Mesa for Glacial Fortress). As I alluded to above, I had some mana problems in a couple games, but I think that was more due to variance and not due to some flaw with the mana base. Here's a quick report:

Round 1 vs. UW Homebrew.dec

This guy had some weird combination of creatures (Daxos of Meletis, Fiendslayer Paladin, Judge's Familiar etc.). I win the die roll and keep a solid opener featuring a couple lands, think twice, Ajani, Cryptic, and a Bolt. Unfortunately, I miss my 4th land drop even with the Think Twice, and my opponent proceeds to draw 3 Tectonic Edges to keep me off of 4 mana for the rest of the game. This was particularly brutal as I stared at both Ajanis, a Supreme Verdict, and a pair of Cryptics for most of the game while losing to a pair of Judge's Familiars and a Daxos (go figure). I forget how I sideboarded here...I'm sure Anger of the Gods came in, and I probably brought in Batterskull as well. Game 2 sees more of the same from my opponent. I Verdict away 3 of his dudes and get a Cryptic on a Restoration Angel Remanded. I draw a Snapcaster, and make a pretty huge punt. For some reason, I start thinking down this convoluted line where I Snapcaster on Path for his Angel, then on his turn chump with the Snapcaster and Bolt his third guy, so that's what I play toward. What I should have done is used Snapcaster for the Verdict in my yard. Long story short, the Path line failed due to a 2nd Resto Angel out of my opponent, and I ended up feeling pretty stupid.

Round 2 vs. Twin

Finally some real magic vs. a real deck. I win the die roll and we're off. Game 1 is pretty much always in my favor as each combo creature is met with a counter or removal out of me. My opponent manages to stick an Exarch several turns later, but he can't find any of his Twins or Kiki. I eventually have enough lands to hold up Cryptic and get in with Colonnade, and I take the win. Sideboarding: -2 Verdict, -2 Sphinx's Revelation, -2 Lightning Helix | +2 Counterflux, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Damping Matrix, +1 Dispel. Game 2 is a little odd. I keep an opener with Damping Matrix and a Path, so I feel pretty safe from the combo if he has it. He spends his first few turns cantriping, which allows me to wait on the Matrix until I can back it up with Spell Snare. I resolve my Matrix, and my opponent has to read it, which leads me to believe that he hasn't planned for it. That proves true as he goes on the beatdown plan, trying to resolve a bunch of dorks. He surprises me with a Batterskull, but I'm able to Wear it before it can do anything. He has more dorks than I have removal, and eventually gets there before I can find an Ajani or Colonnade. No changes for Game 3. By this point, we're getting pretty low on time. I keep another 7 with Matrix and some other stuff, and we're off. I stick Matrix again, but this time he has Ancient Grudge. We trade dorks and removal back and forth for a while until time is called. We're both at 12 life, but I have a Colonnade. He has Combust. I draw-go for two of my turns finding Mana Leak and Spell Snare instead of action. He has a desperate Snapcaster, but I have the Snare and we end up drawing.

Round 3 vs. RB Vampires.dec

I've never seen this kid before, so I have no idea what I'm facing. I win the die roll and keep a somewhat loose six because I didn't really want to go to 5 against an unknown deck. He leads with Akoum Refuge and I'm pretty confused. Unfortunately for him, my draw from that point on was near perfect. He resolved one creature the entire game through my permission, and I had a Bolt so that he never untapped with it. I even felt kind of bad for the kid. I stick Ajani on turn 4 since I wasn't worried about his vampires at all, and ride the big cat to an easy victory. I know I took something out for Anger of the Gods and Batterskull here, probably Think Twice. I take another mull to 6 and again have a relatively loose keep. Once again I'm rewarded for my greed, and draw amazingly. I stick the Skull several turns later, and between that and a Colonnade it's not much of a contest for my opponent.

Round 4 vs. RG Breach

For the third time tonight I'm paired against a completely unknown deck. My opponent leads with a Llanowar Elf, so I figure he's on that green devotion deck that's been running around. Then he plays Misty into Stomping Ground, so I put him on Scapeshift + Mana Dorks. I Cryptic a Primeval Titan a couple turns later, so I still have him on Scapeshift. Imagine my surprise the following turn when he EOT casts Through the Breach and shows me an Emrakul. Didn't see that one coming at all. I forget how I sideboard here, but it was definitely wrong. I should have brought in the Mindcensors and the Wear // Tears (I thought he might have Blood Moon) and I did something else instead. I have him pretty well under control Game 2 as he seems to be losing to his deck. I again Cryptic a Primeval Titan, and I'm feeling pretty good. He has a Through the Breach again, which I unfortunately have to let resolve. Emrakul takes me down to an Island, a Snapcaster, and 3 life to his empty board and empty hand. I'm able to get him into the single digits while we both draw lands, and then he peels Through the Breach and another Emrakul for the win.

Overall I think the list was fine. I definitely lost a couple games due to my ham-fisted attempt at piloting the deck, and certainly lost a couple to variance...but that's just magic. I didn't really miss the Vendilion Cliques until I already had the game well under control and was just looking for an attacker, but I don't think that's a reason to run them.

dunk
05-19-2014, 11:27 AM
I'm with Arsenal here. I can't tell you the number of times Clique has been a 3 mana Gitaxian Probe (opponent Bolts it in response to the trigger) or "target player discards an otherwise useless Mana Leak". The bit dunk said above there about "sometimes the opponent doesn't have an answer" is very rarely the case in my experience as 95% of their removal is otherwise dead against us, so they tend to accumulate it in hand until we present a body.


If your metagame is creature laden then yeah, I can totally see not playing Clique. However, I would still consider it as a sideboard option - your opponents should board out a good chunk of removal anyway and you might face an unfair deck from time to time against which having the clock helps.




This sideboard discussion is all fine since sideboards are 100% meta dependent (or they should be anyway). I will throw in my 0.02 about Counterflux though - the card has never been anything less than a blowout. I absolutely love it vs. Twin and the mirror. It's also potentially very useful vs. Storm, but I don't have much experience playing against it. In my opinion, the first two slots in pretty much any UWR control sideboard should be taken up by Counterflux, with the other 13 filling in the rest of the holes presented by your own meta.


Eh, it's by no means a blowout. Situationally it can be, but these hardly occur. Most of the time it's not that much different to Cancel. Often you can't really afford to wait and just throw it out because it's the only counter you got. A lot of decks that it comes in against run Remand, which is also effective at nullifying Counterflux. And against Storm... threat it as a Cancel most of the time. A counterspell is always useful, but once you let them go off you missed the timing, because even if you are hitting the first Storm spell the second one will get you. In your 75 cards mirror it's definitely the best card in the world, but how often does that happen?

Davran
05-19-2014, 11:44 AM
Eh, it's by no means a blowout. Situationally it can be, but these hardly occur. Most of the time it's not that much different to Cancel. Often you can't really afford to wait and just throw it out because it's the only counter you got. A lot of decks that it comes in against run Remand, which is also effective at nullifying Counterflux. And against Storm... threat it as a Cancel most of the time. A counterspell is always useful, but once you let them go off you missed the timing, because even if you are hitting the first Storm spell the second one will get you. In your 75 cards mirror it's definitely the best card in the world, but how often does that happen?

The alternative is what...Negate? The problem there is that Negate is susceptible to Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Dispel out of the opponent's board, plus all of the typical main board counters. I'll take a potential weakness to Remand over a weakness to literally any counterspell the opponent happens to have any day. Plus, I think I'm OK with the situation where the opponent is Remanding his own spell as I get another crack at countering it minus that Remand he was holding.

dunk
05-20-2014, 10:35 AM
I'm not arguing against playing it. Fact actually is that since the card came out, it never left my sideboard, but it's not as much of a blowout as you call it. My experience is just that Modern metagames are rarely that predictable to justify something like 6 additional counterspells in your sideboard. People often come up with the weirdest builds and the whackies cards, so my approach is to run more varied answers than just counterspells. Like Relic of Progenitus is a card that I'm totally missing. Anyway, if your metagames are really that predictable then you guys are probably right on how your decks look like. Thing is, if you attend a GP you better rely on less specific answers.

Valtrix
05-20-2014, 10:58 AM
A counterspell feels like just about the least generic answer one could play in a sideboard honestly. When at times they might be a little "slow," given the other control elements this deck has I think that counterspells are very acceptable in the sideboard for this deck.

Arsenal
07-17-2014, 10:48 AM
Although I've firmly been on the Melira Pod train since May, I've seen that UWR Control got a new toy in Keranos, God of Storms. I've seen this card in action and it's absolutely insane. It's sometimes better than a planeswalker as it's much harder to remove from play. I've since shaved 1 Ajani Vengeant and added 1 Keranos, God of Storms to my UWR deck. I've also replaced by 2 sb Hallowed Burial with 2 Aetherspouts as I feel Aetherspouts is much better at doing virtually the same thing I want that slot to do.

My current 75:

Main

1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Keranos, God of Storms

4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Supreme Verdict

2 Think Twice
2 Sphinx’s Revelation
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade

Side

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear//Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
1 Dispel
2 Aetherspouts
3 Negate

Phoenix Ignition
07-17-2014, 01:07 PM
Keranos looks good in the deck. Can you explain Aetherspouts > hallowed burial a little more? It's instant speed but is that better than hitting mana dorks and Voice of Resurgence (since his tokens get annoying with aetherpouts)?

YamiJoey
07-17-2014, 03:37 PM
Ætherspouts is significantly worse against Pod, which is the main use for the card. It's also less useful against Rock, as they will often leave Bob and stuff home fearing a Clique, and it lets them untap, so they draw with their Bob first.

Generally, I am not a fan.

Arsenal
07-18-2014, 02:32 PM
Perhaps? Idk, Instant speed sweeper, even if it occasionally leaves a straggler or two behind, seems pretty good. I dislike tapping out mainphase, so Aetherspouts gives me the best of both worlds (mostly); sweeper and done on opponent's turn.

YamiJoey
07-18-2014, 07:03 PM
Rout?

EDIT: Apparently not Modern legal. There is Sunscour. That's an interesting card.

Lord Seth
07-18-2014, 08:38 PM
Rout?

EDIT: Apparently not Modern legal. There is Sunscour. That's an interesting card.Sunscour isn't an Instant, though.

In terms of Instant-speed sweepers, best I can think of is Fated Retribution. It's got a rather hefty cost, though.

Valtrix
07-18-2014, 09:01 PM
Perhaps? Idk, Instant speed sweeper, even if it occasionally leaves a straggler or two behind, seems pretty good. I dislike tapping out mainphase, so Aetherspouts gives me the best of both worlds (mostly); sweeper and done on opponent's turn.

Truth be told, tapping out during their attack phase or during your main phase does not seem much different. They'll still have a window when you've tapped 5 mana to cast something and they've cast nothing.

EDIT: Something about Aetherspouts I dislike is that it gives your opponent the ability to just draw into more gas. For example, they attack with a goyf that you must answer, you aetherspouts it and it goes back on top. They draw next turn and replay. Yes, you've delayed them a turn, but if you really needed to deal with a creature you still have to deal with that creature later.

YamiJoey
07-19-2014, 03:11 AM
Sunscour isn't an Instant, though.

In terms of Instant-speed sweepers, best I can think of is Fated Retribution. It's got a rather hefty cost, though.

You have Wrathed the board and are fully untapped. That is what you were looking for.