[Deck]BUx Reanimator

[crowe_1]

Not sure if blasts are where we really want to be. With Miracles gone, are most U decks now running Wasteland? Sneak n Show (favoured) aside, we could easily just get Wasted off red mana. Plus we usually don't have a lot of extra mana open to start with to fight a counter war.

Izzet Charm is good against DRS but so is Collective Brutality. Izzet Charm offers different modes than CB though so it might be better. Worth a shot.

[PirateKing]

Izzet Charm is good against DRS but so is Collective Brutality. Izzet Charm offers different modes than CB though so it might be better. Worth a shot.

To be totally honest, the mode picked most often by a healthy margin is being pitched to Force of Will. Then it's looting 2 (instant speed is really nice), then burning a creature, and a distant last is casting to counter on its own.

[sunlith42]

I played in a 16 man local event on Sunday. I ran a very stock UB list. Came in 2nd due to Tie-breakers.

Spell 38
reanimate 4
exhume 4
entomb 4
CS 4
FOW 4
BS 4
petal 4
daze 3
TS 2
Ponder 4
SnT 1

Creature 7
Griselbrand 3
iona 1
elesh 1
grave titan 1
tidespout 1


land 15
Delta 4
mire 4
Usea 4
island 1
swamp 2

sideboard 15
pithing needle 3
show and tell 3
inkwell 1
massacre 1
fatal push 1
duress 3
flusterstorm 1
echoing truth 2

It performed extremely well. I was able to get a turn 1 or 2 reanimate almost every game, I attribute this to running 4 ponder and 4 lotus petal which I hadn't been doing with UBg.

Matches:

R1: Big Red - Loss 0-1
Game 1: He won die roll. He has chalice on 1 and turn 2 inferno titan. I scoop before he knows what I am playing.
Game 2: Turn 1 griselbrand, then draw 7 to counter his turn 1 attempt at something. He dies to grisel and elseh 2 turns later.
Game 3: I counter his turn 1 chalice on 1 with FOW. Then entomb on my turn. He plays a second chalice on 1 and I never draw exhume, echoing truth, or Snt. So I had 9 outs and got unlucky.

R2: Bug delver - Win 1-1
Game 1: I win die roll, and get a T1 griselbrand using FOW on his FOW.
Game 2: I FOW his T1 deathrite. I ponder to setup a turn 3 reanimate on grisel.

R3: food chain - Win 2-1
Game 1: Win die roll. I ponder turn one and setup for turn 2 reanimate using entomb, petal, exhume. He plays turn 1 DRS. I get a griselbrand turn 2. Turn 3 I draw 7 to counter a food chain, then reanimate an iona on green.
Game 2: This game was back and forth with counter magic the first few turns, but he doesn't draw any threats and that give me time to get a griselbrand + elesh on the feild.

R4: Aluren - Win 3-1
Game 1: Lose die roll. Hand of entomb, petal, 2 land, reanimate, daze, force, and draw BS. He ponders turn 1. I go for the turn 1 reanimate on grisel, which he tries to force and I daze. I counter a baleful strix next turn with FOW and kill him 2 turns later. Not sure what i was playing against.
Game 2: He plays a land and passes. I have ponder, reanimate, careful study, 2 land, BS, exhume, SnT(draw). I ponder on my turn to reveal iona, grisel, land. Turn 2 I try to reanimate grisel keeping Iona in hand. He uses surgical. Turn 3 I Snt in Iona and he puts in Aluren. I name black and he concedes.

R5: Omni-sneak – Win 4-1
Game 1: Win die roll. I turn 1 ponder to setup a turn 2 reanimate. He goes for a turn 1 Snt which I Daze. I BS on my turn to get a FOW + blue card. He tries to Snt again, I force. Turn 3 I get Grisel. Turn 5 he tries for sneak attack and I daze, then kill him.
Game 2: Turn 1 he ponders. I Thoughtsieze him taking his sneak attack, he had 2 Snt, Omniscience, Emrakul, Sneak, 2 Land. He plays lotus petal and tries for Snt which I daze. On my turn I reanimate Iona name blue. I attack for 2 turns, on his turn he tires for Sneak attack with 1 mana open, I daze which he pays(using his last red mana) for and I attack for the win.

The deck felt extremely strong and well positioned. I made a few mistakes during the event but the deck helped me out. Have the extra basics was really nice and not worrying about a 3rd color. Many people hadn’t seen UB reanimator in a while so the presence of Daze, FOW, and thoughtsieze threw them off which they told me later.

[Zooligan]

WotC needs to do something about $50+ Show-n-Tell on MODO. I understand (don't like, but understand) paper cards reaching high values, but digital objects is a whole other story.

[Kruser]

Did anyone try playing Mystical Tutor?
Often in games you sit on one combo piece.
It even can provide you with counters when you need protection to go off or show and tell, when gy hate is present.

[CptHaddock]

Did anyone try playing Mystical Tutor?
Often in games you sit on one combo piece.
It even can provide you with counters when you need protection to go off or show and tell, when gy hate is present.

They certainly did in 2010 before Mystical Tutor was banned. :laugh:

[Hopo]

People usually prefer cards that are tournament legal.

[Kruser]

sry, just wanted to delete the post, because I found out myself.
To late :)

[ntropy]

If I recall correctly, Reanimator was why Mystical Tutor was banned :) And all we were reanimating was Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Spirit of the Night.

[Damaku]

Reanimator

3 Griselbrand
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb
3 Lotus Petal
2 Ponder
2 Collective Brutality
2 Show and Tell

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grave Titan
1 Keranos, God of Storms

I went 4:2 with this list at the weekend. Making rang 6 in a 34 player event in hamburg. In the Top 8 for the buy at mkm Hamburg I lost to Eldrazi.

Matches:
2:0 vs Patriot
2:1 vs Big Red
2:0 vs Burn
0:2 vs Deathblade
1:2 vs Patriot
2:0 vs Shardless

Top 8:
0:2 vs Eldrazi

Fun tournament. The deck did its thing. All sideboard cards were usefull.

[meffeo]

Andrea Mengucci proposes his straight UB Reanimator list here (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-reanimator/).

Still don't get why he chose to relegate Iona in the sb... I mean, free wins are free wins. Some sideboard choices are questionable but the Archetype is an interesting one, even if it represents a slower clock than the Leviathan.

[Rocco111]

The list is pretty stock.
As for the choice of Iona in the SB, I believe that Elesh Norm Main can give just as many free-wins, depending on what the decks you end up being paired against.
Am not a huge fan of Archetype of Endurance but the fact that it protects the other fatties you can cheat later on is still a very strong plus for this creature, despite an overall slower clock.

[Fox]

As for the choice of Iona in the SB, I believe that Elesh Norm Main can give just as many free-wins, depending on what the decks you end up being paired against.

Given Elves positioning in the current meta, it should probably be maindecked.

[Zooligan]

Given Elves positioning in the current meta, it should probably be maindecked.

By "it" you mean Elesh, right? Or Iona? I cannot really tell from the wording.

[Fox]

By "it" you mean Elesh, right? Or Iona? I cannot really tell from the wording.

Yes, Elesh "the walking Massacre" Norn. :tongue:

[Zooligan]

Yes, Elesh "the walking Massacre" Norn. :tongue:

She's also a house against the current bumper crop of Deathrites, Delvers, YP + it's tokens, and D&T hatebears (not to mention most Dredge creatures and zombie tokens, most Goblins, Empty the Warrens tokens, etc.)

I mostly field BR in which my creature suite is 4 Chancellor, 3x Grisel, 1 Iona, 1 Elesh, and 1 Archetype main, with a Tidespout and a Blazing Archon in the board for Lands/Depths and Eldrazi/Sneak/Omni decks respectively. I sometimes run the Tidespout main and dump either Iona or Elesh, but lately Elesh is indeed worth having. Iona is great against the ever-popular Burn in the online meta tho. Not sure what is optimal.

[Ephemeron]

I know it was discussed a while back, but I'd be loathe to play 4 SnT in the 75 and not have any City of Traitors. I'm kinda high on City in general right now with so much Delver bouncing around, it's a decent way to help power your spells through their wall of soft permission.

[crowe_1]

I believe there's a lot to be gained versus little lost by swapping one Gris for an Iona in Mengucci's list. Iona basically instant-wins game One versus ANT, Elves, Burn, probably Infect, usually Show and Tell, and the list goes on. I guess the justification is probably the number of Grixis decks running around, where Iona is lacklustre and Griselbrand is stellar.

[nyrambler]

Played in my local legacy event last night with my updated list, 12 players. 3-1 record.

Round 1: Elves (2-1)
Round 2: BR Reanimator (1-2)
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-1)
Round 4: BR Reanimator (2-1)

Updated list:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

3 Griselbrand
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Lotus Petal
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Show and Tell

Sideboard
2 Fatal Push
2 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Show and Tell
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Coffin Purge

The only change I would consider making in the maindeck is taking out a Lotus Petal for the 4th Daze. In the sideboard, the Dread of Night should be the 4th Thoughtseize.

[PirateKing]

Played in my local legacy event last night with my updated list, 12 players. 3-1 record.

Round 1: Elves (2-1)
Round 2: BR Reanimator (1-2)
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-1)
Round 4: BR Reanimator (2-1)


What was the difference between the BR Reanimator matches? Just a die roll or a play style change?

[nyrambler]

Round 2 I punted by double dazing the wrong time. Round 4 opponent punted by reanimating Chancellor over Tidespout after he discarded both. I got his Tidespout and won

[owerbart]

Andrea Mengucci proposes his straight UB Reanimator list here (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-reanimator/).

Still don't get why he chose to relegate Iona in the sb... I mean, free wins are free wins. Some sideboard choices are questionable but the Archetype is an interesting one, even if it represents a slower clock than the Leviathan.

Mengucci's list can't beat a Leyline and seems to go all in on Show and Tell.

I agree that it's a common mistake to not having Iona MB, especially when you are replacing her for a FOURTH griselbrand, which I don't like.

I still play decay because of the flexibility it gets. My meta sometimes becomes to COTV heavy so i like keeping the Serenity and the Teferi's Realm.

About Dread Of Night, I highly advice not to run it. DoN will at best get you a thalia or a mom, thr main issue in the DnT MU is Karakas and Containment priest, which laughs at DoN. A second Massacre or a keranos is going to be infinitely better.

[TheStalk]

Question for you guys, is it viable to run the deck with fewer than 4 Underground Sea? I've currently got BR Reanimator built and would like to acquire the pieces to have both versions available, but 4 USea is going to be out of my budget for a while. How bad would it be to run just 2? What do you replace the other 2 with, more fetches? More basics? Shocklands?

Thanks!

[Ephemeron]

Question for you guys, is it viable to run the deck with fewer than 4 Underground Sea? I've currently got BR Reanimator built and would like to acquire the pieces to have both versions available, but 4 USea is going to be out of my budget for a while. How bad would it be to run just 2? What do you replace the other 2 with, more fetches? More basics? Shocklands?

Thanks!

You wouldn't need 4 to have a competitive list, but 3 is kinda the bare minimum of Underground Sea for the deck. I wouldn't play Watery Grave since the deck is pretty life sensitive already between Thoughtseize and Reanimate (and Griselbrand activations). A Darkslick Shores would probably be fine, or another fetch.

[Cpt-Qc]

About Dread Of Night, I highly advice not to run it. DoN will at best get you a thalia or a mom, thr main issue in the DnT MU is Karakas and Containment priest, which laughs at DoN. A second Massacre or a keranos is going to be infinitely better.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't like DoN over Massacre against DnT. Obviously at sorcery speed Massacre is better but containment priest is always going to happen at instant speed if you play against a good player. By then you already lost both a reanimation spell and target. At least with DoN you can proactively slow down the game to the point where they have nothing they can attack you with or force their very few 2/2s to become vulnerable on the board and buy yourself about 5-10 turns. It's not like a serious player would keep disenchant effects against us (if they do that's a really bad call anyway).

I understand the strenght of Massacre against a wider range of decks since it hits all creatures but I believe DoN is much better based solely on that matchup. I do believe however that DoN needs to be played in pair so that you may possible nullify all x/2s and lower by stacking them.

And about Keranos, now that the number of white decks is at an all time low, is it even worth running anymore?

[PirateKing]

I thought Keranos was tech against Miracles because it dodged swords but also dodged Terminus, something Inkwell was dead to.
If it's just D&T giving you problems, they are really hard to beat Inkwell.

[Hank Zhong]

I thought Keranos was tech against Miracles because it dodged swords but also dodged Terminus, something Inkwell was dead to.
If it's just D&T giving you problems, they are really hard to beat Inkwell.

Problem with inkwell is it gets race by batterskull. I've lost too many games to batterskull this way to count. It's hard to get there with just one creature, but griselbrand is usuallly still your best bet postboard. if they karakas it you can still draw into needle and reanimator another fatty.

[owerbart]

If they are deploying it at instant speed to my reanimation target then you can just Force it. Or, just simply reanimate Keranos which dodges Containment Priest completely. Against DnT my usual plan is to make Griselbrand get gas so I can deploy either a Tidespout Tyrant or a Grave Titan with Forces to protect them against swords. Post board, Pithing Needle of course makes everything a bit easier.

My list so far is:

1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan

Sideboard:

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Serenity
1 Echoing Truth
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell
1 Swan Song
1 Teferi's Realm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Massacre

[Damaku]

Nice spice in the sideboard!

[owerbart]

Hi fellow necromancers, I won the Argentinian Legacy League last saturday!

After scoring points since the start of the year, I qualified in 3rd place for the final top 8 (90% of the time I played Reanimator)

Top 8 vs UR delver.

G1 i mull to 6 with no lands but two petals. By the time I can assemble the combo, he has plenty of permission :(

-1 thoughtseize, +1 show and tell, -1 tidespout tyrant, - 1 reanimate, + 2 decay -1 Griselbrand +1 Swan Song

G2 i have plenty of land but no combo. I decay his delver and we play draw go (he lands two cages) until i hardcast a Grave titan. He had fluster and pierce! He fireblasts+ bolts it but the two tokes get there just in time!

- 1 daze, + 1 thoughtseize.

G3 he opens with delver, my t1 attempt meets his FoW. I set up a t3 with discard backup :)

Top 4 vs death and taxes.

G1 he goes plains, go. I play u. Sea and pass. His t2 revoker i respond with entomb+ daze. My t2 grisel sticks as he can't find a karakas, and I force his plow.

-2 daze, -2 thoughtseize, +1 massacre, + 2 decay, +2 pithing needle, + 1 keranos, -1 animate dead

G2 he again goes plains go. I have t1 gris (FoW for his Surgical) and a t2 Keranos :cool:

Finals vs Bant Deathblade.

G1 i mull to 6 with only basic island. His t1 thoughtseize takes my reanimate, and although he doesn't have much permision it's like turn 4 when i finally reanimate something with a jace staring down.

G2 i have t1 thoughtseize into t2 combo... If i draw a second manasource. I dont :( so in his t2 i force a duress, he forces back. i force again. I entomb, he ponders, shuffles, and he doesn't draw interaction for my next turn reanimate!

G3 he goes trop shaman go. I ponder. He plays land and passes. T2 i go land, petal, show and tell. He casts containment priest. I force. He flusterstorms... But every copy onto the force, maybe looking to get some value from my SnT... Flusterstorm resolves... But my second FoW gets through, Iona comes down... And she gets the win and the league!

I played the same exact 76 as in my last post.

[bobomb]

I played the same exact 76 as in my last post.

Thanks for the report.

No issues with running 61 cards maindeck? I guess with all the tutors and hand sculpting it allows for better consistency.

[owerbart]

Thanks for the report.

No issues with running 61 cards maindeck? I guess with all the tutors and hand sculpting it allows for better consistency.
Hi bobomb, usually when I play online a i trim the second swamp to present 60, i like going to 14 lands. But in the paper meta, at least where I live, having thr 15th land is a huge help due to all the waste and moon decks. But to be honest mathemathically speaking, i'd rather play 61 cards and beong able to play all my games than getting mana screwed.

[bobomb]

Hi bobomb, usually when I play online a i trim the second swamp to present 60, i like going to 14 lands. But in the paper meta, at least where I live, having thr 15th land is a huge help due to all the waste and moon decks. But to be honest mathemathically speaking, i'd rather play 61 cards and beong able to play all my games than getting mana screwed.

Ah that makes sense. I run 15 lands in my list and have been comfortable with that number.

Reanimator:

Creatures: 7
4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells: 39
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality

Land: 15
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island


I might try 61 - adding a Show and Tell to the main.

[RNGesus]

A tad late, but Andrea Mengucci took a UB reanimator deck for a spin: https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-reanimator/

He even more recently tried out RB reanimator: https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-br-reanimator/

[bobomb]

I'm sure this has been discussed in the past, but what is the consensus on running Misdirection out of the sideboard when on the draw as a Daze replacement?

Daze gets weaker when you're on the draw and typically you will be seeing surgical extraction and/or counter magic to disrupt your combo post board. Misdirection can act as a pseudo Fow in this case... whereas Daze would likely just have it's cost paid.

If you're likely to be facing permanent based disruption (RiP, Cage, LoTV), then obviously there are better options, but I'll be testing 3 misdirection (I run 3 Daze in the main) in my sideboard in addition to my 2 abrupt decay, 1 golgari charm split for a bit to see how it goes.

SB:
2 Show and Tell (2 in main now)
2 City of Traitors
1 Massacre
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grave Titan
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Misdirection
1 Carpet of Flowers

[Sergei_Simonov]

So the newland spoiled in Hour of Devastation- reuseable grave hate on a land-- this a credible threat to UB? We are just slow enough to het caught in that, especially from decks like D&T or Eldrazi. This something that can find a home there that we will need to be on the lookout for?

[bobomb]

So the newland spoiled in Hour of Devastation- reuseable grave hate on a land-- this a credible threat to UB? We are just slow enough to het caught in that, especially from decks like D&T or Eldrazi. This something that can find a home there that we will need to be on the lookout for?

We still have some answers in our 75, notably Tidespout Tyrant and Pithing Needle.

Also, it's pretty slow. We're still faster.

[owerbart]

So the newland spoiled in Hour of Devastation- reuseable grave hate on a land-- this a credible threat to UB? We are just slow enough to het caught in that, especially from decks like D&T or Eldrazi. This something that can find a home there that we will need to be on the lookout for?

It looks too slow.

@bobomb how do you feel having both collective and show and tell in your MD? I always felt that having both of them together could make a bit of a nuance.

Since my meta is becoming lighter on hardlocks like LOTV, cotv and that stuff, i feel like cutting the white, add a 3rd decay and exchange the tundra for my trop. (gonna keep the teferi's realm just in case)

EDIT/Sidenote: Also as people are getting more lenient on stack-based interactions (faerie macabre, counterspells, surgical/extirpate) I feel I would also like to get a 5th discard spell (duress) in my sideboard to fight with, specially since decks with bolt are seeing a decrease in favor of Fatal Push (which means Thoughtseize would get a bit better). Having two duals for just a 3rd sideboard color is gonna make the manabase a little less akward.

[bobomb]

@bobomb how do you feel having both collective and show and tell in your MD? I always felt that having both of them together could make a bit of a nuance.


I actually moved all my show and tells to the SB after playing in a tournament last Thursday - and am now running 1 Collective Brutality main.

My deck looks like this now:


4 chancellor of the annex
3 griselbrand
1 elesh norn
1 tidespout tyrant

4 lotus petal
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 exhume
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
4 force of will
3 daze
1 lim-dul's vault
2 ponder
1 collective brutality
2 thoughtseize

4 underground sea
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs

sideboard:
1 inkwell leviathan
1 grave titan
1 iona, shield of emeria
4 show and tell
1 pithing needle
2 abrupt decay
2 echoing truth
1 golgari charm
1 massacre
1 bayou


Some of the changes:

Chancellor of the Annex - I really like him. More creatures in the main makes careful study better. He will steal back the play when you're on the draw. He's a decent hatebear on a bigger body when he's on the field. I've won lots of games where he has been my only creature reanimated.

Moved Iona to the sideboard - I felt she was kind of "win more" against decks that are already favorable matchups: Elves and Storm. Though she does have game against Omnitell, but I have yet to see it in my meta.

All UB mana base: 4 Underground Sea is the way to go in the main deck. I've had too many unkeepable hands because my only land was a Bayou and I needed to Careful Study or a Tropical Island when I need to Reanimate. Bringing in a Bayou with Abrupt Decay from the sideboard seems to be a better fit.

[crowe_1]

^
Maybe I'm math failing but I count 59 cards main.

EDIT: I just threw in an extra Daze but after goldfishing a bit I've found this to be the first U/B list I actually like running Chancellor in. Without the S&T main I feel like DRS might be more problematic, though if you're on the play with Chancellor I suppose DRS isn't activating until after your turn 3 anyway. Might give it a go in paper.

[bobomb]

^
Maybe I'm math failing but I count 59 cards main.

EDIT: I just threw in an extra Daze but after goldfishing a bit I've found this to be the first U/B list I actually like running Chancellor in. Without the S&T main I feel like DRS might be more problematic, though if you're on the play with Chancellor I suppose DRS isn't activating until after your turn 3 anyway. Might give it a go in paper.

Thanks for catching that. I'm running a Lim-Dul's Vault in the main as well. Although it might become a 3rd ponder, and Collective Brutality might become a 3rd Thoughtseize... I'm always tinkering.

One problem with Chancellor is it reveals your game plan. So if you're on the play, and you reveal Chancellor, you want to be sure you hand is faster that DRS's summoning sickness. But yes, it does buy you an extra turn.

[crowe_1]

Unfortunately the Exile zone is currently considered a game zone and not "removed from the game" anymore. You can't wish for exiled cards as you could when the Wishes were printed.

[bobomb]

Unfortunately the Exile zone is currently considered a game zone and not "removed from the game" anymore. You can't wish for exiled cards as you could when the Wishes were printed.

Oh... well there goes that then :)

[atlain2]

Hi- First-time poster here. I finished building UB Reanimator about a year ago. I don't get to play too often, so I'd like some advice on card selection for the deck, specifically regarding what creatures to include.
Currently, I have 8 creatures MB:
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Elesh Norn
I chose the Chancellors b/c the local meta includes several fast combo decks (belcher, RB reanimator, Sneak and Show). I know their inclusion in UB Reanimator is somewhat unorthodox, but the extra defensive protection on T1 has won me several games, though I admit they're subpar reanimation targets vs some decks. I chose Elesh over Iona b/c there are several small creature decks (Elves, D&T, delver) in the local meta as well.

I currently have the following creatures in the SB:
1 Tidespout Tyrant- considered a standard, though I've never gotten to use it
1 Blazing Archon- b/c there is 1 eldrazi deck and several Emrakul-based decks locally
1 Iona- standard
1 Grave Titan- pretty standard vs Liliana decks and D&T TMK
1 Ashen Rider- seems good vs problematic permanents that UB may have trouble otherwise removing

While I like this lineup, I feel as if I've got too many creatures clogging up SB slots that could be better used for other things (SB is listed below; e.g., I have zero graveyard hate). I can't, however, decide which creatures to keep and which to trim, due to a combination of inexperience, wanting to play a lot of Timmy cards, and also liking toolbox options in my SB strategy. But perhaps some of these fatties overlap too much in application and I only need one or the other, or maybe there's a non-creature SB option that could replace one of them and also be more useful versus a wider range of opponents. Any constructive advice would be appreciated. The rest of my deck list is below for reference.
Thanks!

MB
15 lands (no G; straight UB list)
8 creatures (see above)
4 petal
4 entomb
4 exhume
4 reanimate
1 show & tell (I like 1 MB out to Deathrite Shaman, and I can pitch it to FoW if unneeded)
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 careful study
2 thoughtsieze
1 collective brutality- odd MB choice but I wanted another piece of disruption, and so far it has been fantastic every time I've drawn it, but maybe that's just dumb luck.
4 FoW
3 daze

SB
5 fatties (see above)
2 show & tell
2 massacre
3 pithing needle
3 echoing truth

[crowe_1]

^
I'd say drop one Chancellor to put Tidespout in the main, then drop Blazing Archon from the side. Emrakul decks are generally favoured for you without it, and several of your creatures are good against Eldrazi anyway (Elesh, Grisel, even Grave Titan if you drop him early). Dropping Ashen Rider as well wouldn't be awful, but it is a good catch-all answer to problem permanents to back up Tidespout. I personally run Ashen and Archon as the only extra creatures in my board, but I have Iona, Titan, and Tyrant in the main with no Chancellors. If you run Chancellor in U/B, it will be at the cost of better bullets.

Also I'm not sure three Pithing Needles is necessary. I used to run three in the board and dropped one when I found that there was no deck I was ever bringing in three against. But to each their own. Hopefully that frees up some space for Surgicals or extra discard or something.

[Karhumies]

Since we are discussing Bu Chancellor builds, here is the list I have liked to run lately:

Mana (15)
Land (14)
1x Island
1x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
Artifact (1)
1x Chrome Mox

Sorcery (18)
4x Careful Study
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate
2x Thoughtseize
2x Unmask
2x Collective Brutality

Creature (11)
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Grave Titan
4x Griselbrand
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb

Enchantment (4)
4x Animate Dead

Sideboard (15)
2x Echoing Truth
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4x Force of Will
2x Pithing Needle
4x Show and Tell
2x Surgical Extraction

Notes:
No L.Petal MD. Running B.Storm/D.Ritual in the L.Petal slot.
Fetches basics whenever possible
FoWs in the SB due to low pre-sb blue count
When SBing FoWs in, Unmasks go out

G1 we are essentially playing Br animator with tons of speed. G2-G3 we slow down into more typical Bu animator build.

For a DRS heavy meta, I would change the 2-2 CB-Unmask split into 4-0

If you need more lands, you can drop the Chrome Mox for a 15th land

[Cpt-Qc]

I really like your take on the BU fast build with a FoW sideboard plan. I'm gonna try adapting it to my liking and see how well I can do.

[Karhumies]

I really like your take on the BU fast build with a FoW sideboard plan. I'm gonna try adapting it to my liking and see how well I can do.

If you want 1-2 extra slots in the 75 (for daze/s.pierce/duress?), you can
- drop 1 exhume/animate dead in the md for a SnT to gain 1 sb slot
- move Iona from md into sb to gain 1 md slot
-drop the FoWs in the SB down to 3 to gain 1 sb slot

[Fox]

I'd be a little leery of Collective Brutality in the list you've provided. The card is great, but you've lost symmetry with Delver (Daze/FoW) which means your ability to play two decks has lessened. CB kills DRS/Delver/YP, but your ability to do a Delver impression and win by Reanimate targeting one of those is about comparable to B/R. You have selected 4 slots of playing their deck with Thoughtseize and Unmask, but discard slots that steal creatures should be on par with total copies of Reanimate and Animate Dead (more true in a post-board game). If you think an opponent is on Leyline post-board, Exhume is out and more creature discard is coming in; even if they aren't on Leyline, we should be looking for post-board wins without Exhume.

CB is a strong card, but you need that backup plan of playing their deck - a strategy that isn't really viable anymore by stealing x/1s or x/2s. Your total blue count is a possible 19, but realistically 13 in a combo matchup (where SnT and Echoing are often left out). I think you're reaching levels where you definitely need Gin-Gitaxias as Grisel #4 and an Inkwell somewhere in the 75.

[owerbart]

So after 4 years, I took a week off, and after goldfishing some hands I moved to a build without petals.
It feels nice to get much better cantrips since you can get more action cards. I brought my last list posted here with -4 petals, +1 fetch, +1 pithing needle, +1 hapless researcher, +1 animate dead.

R1 2-1 uw stoneblade
R2 2-0 grixis control
R3 2-1 Death and Taxes
R4 2-0 Painter
R5 1-2 UW stoneblade (i punted game 2 and then lost to a topdeck)

Overall the list felt extremely solid, with this new slow meta it has been nice to get a better endgame and moving up to 5 discards post board helps a lot against these blue-value control shells.

It took me 4 years but finally i joined @stryfo and @pirate king non-petal side, haha. Any other players on this idea? I know more of you guys are actually trying to move to the fastest side with Unmask, chancellor and even chrome mox. I just wanted to give my two cents that being on the slow side has been working very well for me lately.

[owerbart]

So after 4 years, I took a week off, and after goldfishing some hands I moved to a build without petals.
It feels nice to get much better cantrips since you can get more action cards. I brought my last list posted here with -4 petals, +1 fetch, +1 pithing needle, +1 hapless researcher, +1 animate dead.

R1 2-1 uw stoneblade
R2 2-0 grixis control
R3 2-1 Death and Taxes
R4 2-0 Painter
R5 1-2 UW stoneblade (i punted game 2 and then lost to a topdeck)

Overall the list felt extremely solid, with this new slow meta it has been nice to get a better endgame and moving up to 5 discards post board helps a lot against these blue-value control shells.

It took me 4 years but finally i joined @stryfo and @pirate king non-petal side, haha. Any other players on this idea? I know more of you guys are actually trying to move to the fastest side with Unmask, chancellor and even chrome mox. I just wanted to give my two cents that being on the slow side has been working very well for me lately.

EDIT: Current list. Petals weren't missed, And I do believe I had a better consistency on T2 reanimations than with Petal builds. I would need to check my notes though.

Land:
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire

Artifact:
1 Pithing Needle

Creatures:
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Hapless Researcher

Enchantments:
2 Animate Dead

Sorceries:
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Careful Study
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell

Instant:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
3 Daze

Sideboard (Maybe subjected to future change):
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Show and Tell
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Spell Pierce

[bobomb]

EDIT: Current list.

I really like that you're running 12 reanimation spells (including Show and Tell). I'm only running 8 and I'd like to make room for more but I can't do it without sacrificing speed or protection.

Since you're on the slow and steady plan, have you given Jace, Vryn's Prodigy any thought? Or is Hapless Researcher strictly better in that role?

[atlain2]

crowe- thanks for the suggestions, I'll try tinkering with those ideas. Not sure about cutting the 4th Chancellor since its effect is most helpful when it's in your opening hand, but you're right that it comes at the cost of fewer silver bullets. And maybe I'm just too gunshy of falling victim to the T1 combo kill. Dropping Archon and a Needle seems reasonable. I didn't have a specific reason for 3 Needles other than its ability to stop multiple hate cards (Karakas, DRS, etc). I tend to like 3-ofs in SBs b/c I figure (perhaps incorrectly) that if I'm bringing a card in post-board there must be a good reason, and as such I want to maximize my chances of drawing it, so 3 copies (1 per 20) always seems better than 2 (1 per 30).

Replies to other recent comments:
--I tried Unmask but found there was too much tension in trying to have enough B cards for Unmask and enough U cards for FoW. Making the MD more B and siding in more U when needed is interesting. Transformational SBs are always kinda neat, though difficult to tweak properly- seems like you can never side out everything you really need to.

--I've seen non-Petal builds but haven't tried one. I like that you went to 16 lands and included D. Rit. to balance it out. Lotus Petal has always been a personal favorite- I opened 2 playsets of them when Tempest was out- but I do like D. Rit. a lot too. Around Urzas/Mercadian block I built a UB Reanimator deck from scratch that aimed for T1 Swamp into D.Rit. into Hidden Horror, discarding a fattie such as Thorn Elemental and Exhuming it on T2. Also used Waterfront Bouncers for defense and discard. All this was pre-Entomb of course. I don't recall if Hidden Horror was Type 2 legal at the time; I played very casually so it never came up! :-)

[owerbart]

@bobomb To be honest, my man, I've never given baby Jace that much of a thought. It's nice that you get the permanent loot with it but turning on bad cards against us as Push or Bolt is something I'm particularly not interested in. I know some people here tried it and even some play it Main Board, so don't take my thoughts on it as set in stone. The lone happy has actually been amazing, getting that 9th loot effect has been pretty cool so I know understand people like Stryfo that go all the way to 4. Regarding the Petals, I still believe if you feel your meta allows you to then you can go for it. Of course Petals are going to become way worse as time passes by, same as Dark Ritual, when you need your cantrips to be decent and not show you just air.

@atlain2 Using Spellshapers and things like Hidden Horror (or his strict upgrade, Mercenary Knight) are things that I always wanted to try. It's nice to have some input on this options. I feel like they could be amazing post board, since they would dodge pierce and fluster, and if it hits, you would have an early threat that they will need to maneuver around or it eats a hard counter which could always be nice. On the topic of these off-beat ideas, a card that I played once, and to be honest deserves further testing, is Soulflayer. Sometimes powering a T2 4/4 that gained both Flying and Lifelink from Griselbrand can end up being pretty good, and post sideboard delver decks may not have a response.

[jethstriker]

Hello fellow reanimators. I have been reading the forums for quite some time and recently decided to register. I want to raise some questions about some fundamental issues regarding the deck.

To the players that mainboard Thoughtseize, given the opportunity to cast Thoughtseize or a cantrip (Brainstorm / Ponder), which would you choose first on turn 1 on the play? I know it heavily depends on what you're opponent is on and the rest of your hand composition, but say it is game one and you don't know what you're opponent is on, what would be the factors in your hand that would lead you to favor the one over the other as a general rule of thumb?

To the players that have other decks with countermagic, suppose you only have one countermagic in your hand, what would you prioritize to counter first, the enabler (Entomb / Careful Study) or the reanimators. A playtest partner of mine who is on Grixis Delver said it is more correct to counter reanimators but in my opinion he is wrong. It is more correct for them to counter the enablers because without resolving them, any reanimation cards in our hand and future reanimation topdecks are dead cards. The time it is correct to let the enablers resolve is post board when they are already holding their grave hate. Am I wrong in this? Or is there something that I'm missing?

What do you think is the ideal amount of blue cards to reliably cast Force of Will whenever one is in your hand? I normally see between 22-24 blue cards (including the Force), but I have seen list as low as 18 (still including the Force).

Thanks for reading.

[bobomb]

Thoughtseize, a general rule of thumb?

What would you prioritize to counter first, the enabler (Entomb / Careful Study) or the reanimators.

What do you think is the ideal amount of blue cards to reliably cast Force of Will whenever one is in your hand?


In my opinion:

Going into an unknown match you lead with Thoughtseize vs a cantrip 9/10 times. Unless that cantrip allows you to combo that turn with protection. For example, my deck would allow a hand like: Thoughtseize, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Careful Study, Griselbrand, Chancellor of the Annex, Reanimate - a nuts draw if you will. But in this case, revealing Chancellor and leading with Careful Study is the obvious play. Now, if instead of Careful Study, that hand had a Ponder, I'd lead with Thoughtseize.

In my experience most people try to counter the reanimation spell rather than the enabler, and that's probably the right play, given that you can naturally discard a fattie at the end of a turn.

18+ is generally the accepted answer. There are threads elsewhere that lay out the percentages of Force + Blue card in your opening hand and the diminishing returns of each additional blue card in your deck.

[Joe Eigo]

In my opinion:
Now, if instead of Careful Study, that hand had a Ponder, I'd lead with Thoughtseize.

One could argue that if you are on the play with a Chancellor trigger the best play might be thoughtseizing yourself then Petal/Reanimate Grisel. On the draw (if your draw was not relevant) it gets more interesting. Making no play, discard Grisel to hand size and have thoughtseize + Petal/Reanimate on your next seems like the strongest option to me. Other then that with so much combo and even Deathrite Shamans in the format i agree that Thoughtseize should be prioritized over any cantrips. "Comboing off now" vs. "playing disruption first and wait a turn" often is a much more tougher choice imo.

[Ephemeron]

Hello fellow reanimators. I have been reading the forums for quite some time and recently decided to register. I want to raise some questions about some fundamental issues regarding the deck.

To the players that mainboard Thoughtseize, given the opportunity to cast Thoughtseize or a cantrip (Brainstorm / Ponder), which would you choose first on turn 1 on the play? I know it heavily depends on what you're opponent is on and the rest of your hand composition, but say it is game one and you don't know what you're opponent is on, what would be the factors in your hand that would lead you to favor the one over the other as a general rule of thumb?

To the players that have other decks with countermagic, suppose you only have one countermagic in your hand, what would you prioritize to counter first, the enabler (Entomb / Careful Study) or the reanimators. A playtest partner of mine who is on Grixis Delver said it is more correct to counter reanimators but in my opinion he is wrong. It is more correct for them to counter the enablers because without resolving them, any reanimation cards in our hand and future reanimation topdecks are dead cards. The time it is correct to let the enablers resolve is post board when they are already holding their grave hate. Am I wrong in this? Or is there something that I'm missing?

What do you think is the ideal amount of blue cards to reliably cast Force of Will whenever one is in your hand? I normally see between 22-24 blue cards (including the Force), but I have seen list as low as 18 (still including the Force).

Thanks for reading.

To answer your first question, with no hunch of what my opponent might be on, I'd lead with Thoughtseize first. Gives you the opportunity to snipe DRS out of your opponents hand before it can hit the battlefield, and lets you know what you need to find with your cantrips when you cast them later on. Situations where you might do otherwise obviously depend on your hand, like if you have a Grislebrand, a Thoughtseize, and lands and cantrips and you think you can find a reanimation spell but may need to target yourself with Thoughtseize to get Grislebrand in the yard. Stuff like that.

As to your second question, at least for UBx Reanimator, I've always found the choke-point to be getting a creature into the yard. There are generally fewer ways to do that than reanimation spells (I can't speak to RB reanimator since I've never played the deck and I figure you're more interested in a response tailored to UBx Reanimator since you posted in this thread). So in general, I'd always counter Entomb rather than wait to counter the reanimation spell. I don't think I'd ever counter Careful Study unless you knew for a fact (Gitaxian Probe, soul read, etc.) that Study was guaranteed to get a creature in the yard. The exception to always countering Entomb is if you have a Surgical Extraction or a Faerie Macabre in hand where you can really get a lot of value by removing the creature in the yard in response to the reanimation spell. Another exception is if it's the mirror or something and you have the ability to reanimate your opponent's entombed fatty.

[owerbart]

Hello @jethstriker welcome aboard :)

I agree with fellow posters that on the play against an unknown opponent I would always thoughtseize unless I can sculpt a very strong hand for t2. I feel like thoughtseize is a card that either you want to play t1 on the play, to possible snipe something like a shaman or COTV, so you get the best card and your opponent doesn't get to respond with brainstorm, or either I wait with it till the turn I plan to go off. I feel most people think that Reanimator is a deck that is only good on the first few turns but against 60% of the field landing a griselbrand T3-4 will give you the game anyway.

On your second question, about the what to counter against reanimator, I feel most of the time people let the enablers pass and let the fight happen against the reanimation spells, which can sometimes be wrong. I'm sure a lot of games un-complicate themselves because your opponent lets your only enabler resolve and then by "brute force" one of your reanimation spells gets in. Also on the flipside, sometimes a heads-up play is to bait your opponent into counter one of your redundant enabler spells, by casting, let say, one of the entombs on your hand in the moment it would be extremely convenient for your opponent to daze/pierce it. Careful study is one of the cards that people counter the less because they play with the thought that you might be still looking for the monster, and there's the chance that you actually generate negative card advantage on yourself if you whiff. What people should know is that any player with some experience in UB Reanimator would never fire off a study without already having the monster in hand.

About the blue-card count for Force, I'm currently at 22 (counting the FoWs themselves) and it feels alright, but I wouldn't argue if somebody says that you need 24. Having maindeck Show and Tell helps with that number, thankfully.

Talking about Show and Tell, how many of you guys actually go for the bluffs with it? I've been having great success early, cast Show and Tell, even without a monster in your hand, and 99.9% of times people won't call you and will counter it, wasting their permission in something that it was actually meaningless and then be naked to the actual pay off cards. One wacky story: Last weekend, against a highly skilled player on Grixis Control, I casted on show and tell with 5 cards in hand, 3 of which were known by him due to an earlier Cabal Therapy. So that left me with only two cards which could actually be monsters. He decided to call the bluff and let it resolve, and turns out one of the two was indeed a Grave Titan. I bluffed him like three times before in previous weekends, and he decided to counter everytime, so the one time I was being serious, and he had the Force in hand, all those previous psych-outs paid off :laugh:

[atlain2]

I don't have much experience with the deck but I'll add my thoughts:

Re: TS or cantrip, in the scenario you laid out I'd also choose to TS on T1. You may cut off a T1 combo kill from your opponent, and even if you don't do something that dramatic, you'll know what your opponent is on, know how to play your hand on the next turn(s), and you'll take something important from their hand. My understanding is that you want to hod your cantrip- especially Bstorm- as long as possible to get the most value from it.

Re: countering enabler or reanimator, I think it depends a lot on the scenario. Against other reanimator decks, you probably want to let the enabler resolve IF you can reanimate the creature form their graveyard before they can- both Reanimate and Animate Dead let you target a creature in ANY graveyard, which is something that a lot of players forget. On the other hand, if you think they can reanimate the target before you can, you may want to prevent it from hitting the yard. Also depends on the enabler; countering Faithless Looting (in the RB Reanimator pseudo mirror) feels bad b/c they can just flash it back. But RB also typically has 12 reanimation spells, and UB does not have enough counters to prevent multiple reanimation attempts in that matchup. While I definitely see the logic of countering the enabler and trying to maroon the fattie in their hand, I don't think that'll work out well in every scenario (also remember that some lists, like Mono B reanimator and even RB Reanimator, can just hardcast some fatties by stringing together Dark Rits & Petals).

Re: U sources for FoW, the number I have seen cited in most 'guide to legacy' type articles is 20 total U cards (so 16 + 4 FoW). But I have definitely seen experienced pilots say they don't need that many and cut to 16-18. I currently have 18; while I wouldn't mind 1-2 more, I'm not sure what non-U cards I would cut and what U card(s) I would try to jam in. I can only recall having a FoW stranded in my hand 1x, at least when I needed to cast it.

Re: bluffing with SaT; haven't tried that.

Re: 'old' options to explore: I've never seen Mercenary Knight before, I would definitely have run him in that old deck! I don't remember the exact deck list offhand, but I know it had a roughly 11-11-11 split between discard outlets, reanimation spells, and fatties. It was something like this (again, it was a casual deck so it didn't adhere to Type 2 or anything):
Discard:
4 waterfront bouncer (very useful if not killed right away)
4 frantic search
4 hidden horror (also a nice, early threat)
Reanimate
4 exhume
4 animate dead
1-2 reanimate(can't remember how many I owned then; it was not a playset)
2 living death (why reanimate 1 fattie at a time?)
Fatties
These varied over time, but some favorites were Spirit of the Night, Sliver Queen, Thundermare, Thorn Elemental, Avatar of Woe, Greven, Verdant Force, and Blizzard Elemental. Mostly one-ofs though occasionally I'd run a pair of something.
Fast Mana
4 Petal
4 D Rit
Other
X Carrion Beetle (chump blocker that could help ensure they didn't get something good off my Exhumes)
I think the rest were lands, just whatever UB duals I could cobble together. I had 1 Underground Sea, some Gemstone Mines, at least 1 Undiscovered Paradise, City of Brass, etc.
It was always fun to play; the Bouncers and Horrors gave you early game defense/pressure, and the fast mana gave you plenty of acceleration. Since this was a few years before Entomb was printed you couldn't select which silver bullet you could reanimate, but I still aimed for a range of creatures. Thundermare (and later Thorn Elemental) were great for getting past stalled boards, Verdant Force/Sliver Queen could quickly gum up the board vs aggro, Avatar for removal, Spirit for all the keywords, etc.

[PirateKing]

jethstriker,

My thoughts on your first question is unfortunately there is no universal answer to a T1 play. The advice I can offer however, especially with 1-2 combo decks like Reanimator, is that the Golden Rule is to always have a plan. When it comes to deciding on keeping your opening hand, you need to evaluate what you have, what you're missing and how you plan on getting it. This isn't a grindy value deck, a hand of countermagic and cantrips and a Thoughtseize isn't what we're playing for. We're looking for land, a reanimation effect & a way to get a target in the graveyard. Add some protection to that and you have a nuts hand. Find out what you're missing and prioritize getting that. You should always be executing that plan.

In card specifics, there really isn't any value in a T1 Brainstorm. You see 3 new cards and put 2 back, 1 that you're guaranteed to draw next turn. The card is an instant, so there's no rush to jam it as soon as possible. Unless you're planning on doing something else that turn, like Petal Petal win the game, just play a land and pass. on your T2 you can play a fetch land, Brainstorm and shuffle away the flak for significantly more value, without cutting you off from responding to an opponent's Thoughtseize.

In comparing Ponder and Thoughtseize, what is your hand missing? If you have all the cards already, something like a creature, Careful Study and Reanimate, and you just need a window to T2, open with Thoughtseize, ensure the coast is clear and play out your plan next turn. If you're holding onto just an Entomb and need a reanimation effect before you're doing anything of relevance, I'd advocate starting off with the Ponder, make sure you're drawing into something that matters and set up a T2 of Thoughtseize, EOT Entomb and a T3 reanimation. Playing Thoughtseize first does snipe away their best card, but then what's the plan after that? T2 Ponder means you have 1 land open which isn't enough to do anything in a Petal-less build, and whiffing on the Ponder means you're stuck letting them rebuild a hateful hand while you scramble. These examples might be idyllic, but that's the lesson; play the line the executes the plan. Whatever nuances are present in the situation, we're a Reanimator deck, if you're not reanimating, you're not playing the deck.

As for the suspiciously traitorous questions regarding which spell to counter, it'll just be numbers. Assuming a standard deck has 4 Entomb, 4 Careful Study and probably 2 Thoughtseize, you'd count that as 7 ways to get a card in the graveyard, figuring the cards that require a creature in hand to be relevant to be worth 1/2 a card. You could blindly get something with Careful Study, but that's a desperation play, so we shouldn't really be considering that. The same sort of standard deck would have 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 2 Animate Dead and a single Show and Tell main. That'd count up to 10-1/2 ways to get a creature into play, again figuring the Show and Tell at 1/2 a card. So with this build the bottleneck and best target would be the enabler spells, not the business spells. In lists I've played to success in the past, I ran 4 Entomb, 4 Careful Study, 4 Hapless Researcher & 2 Izzet Charm for a pretty remarkable 9 ways to bin a creature, and played 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 2 Animate Dead for 10 ways to bring it back out again. My experience was even without an opponent trying their hardest to disrupt me, I was having a difficult time getting the creature into the graveyard, and my hand equity was pretty exhausted when it came time to fight over bringing it back out again. I sacrificed by playing zero Show and Tell in the deck and relied heavily on 1 for 1 removal against the hate cards that typically force us into the Show and Tell route.

My current list is grossly outdated in the brave new post-top world, so I don't have the finger on the pulse of what Reanimator guys are doing. As with anything I write take it with context and test for yourself.

[owerbart]

@PirateKing - Great piece of advice. One of the most important concepts when playing these type of decks is that given your initial hand you should already be able to figure out your plan. If you feel your hand can't sculpt one, then you should send it back.

As an afterthought while on the subway - how do you guys feel about running more than 1 sweeper in the board? Maybe a copy of toxic deluge? Post-board games usually go long and handling more than one hate creature with a single answer could be good.

[meffeo]

As an afterthought while on the subway - how do you guys feel about running more than 1 sweeper in the board? Maybe a copy of toxic deluge? Post-board games usually go long and handling more than one hate creature with a single answer could be good.

Is Elesh not enough? Which are the creatures that need to be taken care of? I do believe that two copies of Collective Brutality suit the role.

[owerbart]

Is Elesh not enough? Which are the creatures that need to be taken care of? I do believe that two copies of Collective Brutality suit the role.

I mean overall as a way to buy time while you set up your combo turn - maybe taking care of two shamans, a sanctum prelate, a containment priest, a scavenging ooze..

[PirateKing]

That's usually the role played by Massacre, but if your opponents don't show up with many Plains then Toxic Deluge could work as well. I enjoyed Pernicious Deed as a catchall sweeper, though more than once the outdated Planeswalker-less scope hurt me against a pesky Jace or Liliana.

[Karhumies]

The best moments to Thoughtseize the opponent are:
- T1 on the play (Chalice, Trinisphere, DRS, etc.)
- One turn before you reanimate to clear the way. However, the opponent can Brainstorm in response so this is not the strongest play.
- During the reanimation turn if you have the mana for it.
- Post-SB t1 on the draw is pretty good as well if you are playing against white and therefore suspecting Containment Priest or Rest in Peace with cmc2.

T1 Brainstorming sounds like a desperation play to me. Brainstorm is strongest with an active fetchland or other shuffle effect as a follow up so you don't re-draw what you sent away. Brainstorm is also super strong as a protection spell cast in response to opposing spot discard.

Going at it blindly, without Chancellor triggers and assuming the opponent does not have nonbasic hate, I would t1 ug sea into thoughtseize, t2 fetchland pass with active brainstorm and entomb in the opponent's end step, t3 mana source play exhume/animate dead around daze. This is a relatively conservative line of play which is open to opposing Wasteland. If you have a speedy hand, you might choose to go for it unprotected on turn 1 if you can because that gives the opponent much less time to sculpt their hand and more pressure to have answers.

When talking about (lack of) discard outlets, the fatty count does affect the usefulness of Careful Study. I have seen lists go as low as 8 fatties, but my best play records have been with 10-11 fatties, which I believe is the right minimum number if you are running Show and Tell in the 75.

New players don't always realize this, but on the draw, we can keep 7, t1draw cleanup discard fatty, t2 mana source reanimation spell. Cleanup discard can not be countered, but if the opponent plays a t1 spot discard on the play, this can backfire because we don't get to 8 cards.

[atlain2]

Hi again-
So I've been playing in a small, local league and have made the cut to Top 8 for the finals (not to make it bigger than it is; there have only been 9-10 regulars so making Top 8 wasn't that hard :) ). I have a couple of weeks to prep before the Top 8 Tournament and I've decided to do some tuning to my deck. While I don't expect to win, I want to do my best. After 7 weeks of league play people have gotten pretty used to one another's decks, so I think some tweaks could not only make the deck better but may also catch some folks off guard. I know what changes I want to make MB, but could use some advice on what changes the SB needs. Below is my revised list and some notes on the local meta. Thanks for any suggestions on how I should tune my SB. I'll post a separate message with a quick synopsis of last night's league results to give some insight into how I'm currently sideboarding so folks can see my logic, or lack thereof.

Local Meta
I don't know exactly what will be in the Top 8 since a couple of folks run more than 1 deck, but it'll likely be something like this:
-UB Reanimator (me)
-RB Reanimator
-RB Reanimator
-Sneak & Show
-Elves
-Death and Taxes
-?
-?
The ?s could be another D&T, a BUG deck, or a Delver deck

Revised MB List
15 lands
-Keeping 3 UGS, 4 deltas, 2 U fetches, 2 B fetches, 1 island and 2 swamps. Replacing the 2nd island with a 3rd swamp. Started with a 2/2 island/swamp split, but having B on T1 seems more important than another island for Daze.

8 Creatures
-Big change here as I think I'll cut the 4 Chancellors and instead run 3 Griselbrand, 1 Elesh, 1 Iona, 1 Tidespout, 1 Grave Titan, and 1 Ashen Rider. The Chancellors have their moments, but they're not great reanimation targets a lot of the time, so if there's not one in my opening hand it just isn't as useful as I'd like. On multiple occasions opponents on decks like RB Reanimator can just power through the Chancellor trigger, so it's not even always getting the job done. On the other hand, I'm often siding them out for those other fatties and I'm doing much better post-SB, so I think it's time to move them to the MB. This is opening up SB slots for me.

9 Reanimators
-No change here: 4 exhume, 4 reanimate, 1 show and tell main (an out vs an early DRS from ELves or BUG)

8 Discard
-No changes: 4 entomb 4 careful study

10 Disruption
-No changes: 2 TS and 1 C. Brutality, 4 FoW, 3 Daze

4 Acceleration
-I'm gonna goldfish with 4 D Rituals in place of the 4 Petals to see what I think. I know this is unconventional, but having played against the 2 RB Reanimator decks a lot, D Rit gives them a lot of acceleration and allows them to have some very 'big' early turns that I don't get with a Petal. Someone mentioned this in a recent post and I'm curious to see how it works, though I know earlier posts have cautioned against DRit in UB lists.

6 Cantrips
-No changes: 4 BStorm 2 Ponder

SIDBOARD
This is where I could really use some advice. Here's what I've been running:
-2 Show & Tell- almost always board in, replacing 2 Exhume in anticipation of graveyard hate. Is a 3rd in the SB (1 is in the MB) a good idea?
-2 Massacre- for the D&T lists
-3 Pithing Needle. They're usually quite handy, shutting down DRS, Karakas, Sneak Attack, etc etc. Someone mentioned that 2 may be better than 3....?
-3 Echoing Truth. To bounce hate that can't be needled, like Leyline of the Void, Containment Priest, Cages, etc. Also good against the RB Reanimator lists.
-The last 5 have been 'silver bullet fatties' but 4 are being moved to the MB to replace the Chancellors, leaving only Blazing Archon and 4 empty slots. And based on advice given in this thread recently, the Blazing Archon could probably be cut, opening up 5 slots.

So what to pack into those 5 open SB slots given the decks I'm likely gonna face? I'll brainstorm a few options, but these may be terrible:
-More disruption, such as more TS, C Brutality, or Duress?
-Graveyard hate? Could be good vs the RB Reanimator decks, though I do pretty well against them already as long as I play tight. A quickly reanimated Iona is game over, and a well-timed FoW or TS can leave them in topdeck mode.
-The 4th Show and Tell? Not good vs Reanimator or Sneak & Show.
-A 4th Daze? I've been pretty happy with 3, as they get worse in multiples and are often ineffective vs RB Reanimator, Sneak/Show, Elves, and D&T.
-More cantrips? I tinkered with the number early in the league and have been really happy with 6 total. 4-5 seemed too few, and > 6 felt like too much air.
-4 Monastery Mentor and a Scrubland- because hey, if Tin Fins can do it.... but seriously, any other 'contingency plan' besides Show & Tell? I've wondered if the Dark Depths/Hexmage/Thespians Stage package could be crammed into UB Reanimator, but I think it takes up too much room. Perhaps the Lake of the Dead/Grim Monolith ramp package, though hardcasting my non-U/B fatties may not be feasible.

Thanks again for any suggestions.

[atlain2]

Following up on my request above, here's a quick run-down of last night's matches in the league to provide some insights into how and why I'm sideboardng. Constructive criticism is welcome.I don't keep exact notes, so I may be off by a card here and there in the SB descriptions.

Match 1 vs RB Reanimator: won 2-1
G1: keep a good opening hand with a Daze and a Chancellor on the draw. She burns a Petal to take care of the Chancellor trigger, then proceed with land, petal, dark rit, thoughtseize, entomb. I can't catch up and am quickly beaten down.
SB out: -4 Chancellor, -3 Daze -1 Elesh
SB in: +3 Echoing Truth, +1 Needle, +1 Ashen Rider, +1 Tidespout, +1 Iona, +1 Blazing Archon
Rationale: I know this opponent packs a range of graveyard hate, including LotV, Relic, and Surgicals. She have too much acceleration for Chancellor or Daze to be really useful.
G2: We both mull to 6, trade disruption, and are both left to spin our wheels for a couple of turns. This is where UB can outpace RB since I can cantrip into business and she can only topdeck. I find Entomb for Iona, Reanimate, game.
G3: She keeps a fast hand but I FoW, cutting her off right away. Then T1 land, petal, entomb iona, reanimate game.

Match 2 vs RB Reanimator: lost 1-2
G1: I get an early lead but have to use Exhume to get my Grisel reanimated, which gives him a Tidespout. I draw 14 blanks with Grisel. I hang on for several turns, but can't keep a board stable vs the Tidespout and eventually lose. Could have waited for a Reanimate instead of using the Exhume- I knew giving him the Tidespout was risky- but RB has more reanimation spells than me, so I thought he'd just get Tidespout online soon anyway, and I hoped the Grisel draws would net me enough business to stay ahead.
SB: same plan as in match 1.
G2: I quickly entomb and reanimate Iona naming black. Game.
G3: I don't remember much about this one. He got a Grisel into play off a T2 Stronghold Gambit. I was set to Echoing Truth it; that would have put us pretty much at parity, and I think I could have developed a board faster than him. But he followed up Gambit with an Unmask stripping the ET and I couldn't recover; I hung in there for a few turns but was all but dead before my second turn.

Match 3 vs D&T: won 2-1
G1: He T1 Aether Vials. I T1 land, petal, entomb Elesh, Reanimate. I went for Elesh b/c, against an early Vial, she seems like my best bet, as no crts he can cast or vial in will stick around. Yes, I'm vulnerable to Karakas and Swords, but my only other MB options are Grisel and Chancellor. Vial laughs at Chancellor, and Grisel has the same vulnerabilities as Elesh and also doesn't keep his hatebears off the table. But he has the Swords and quickly overruns me with W weenies.
SB out: -4 Chancellor, -3 Daze, -2 Exhume, -2 Study
SB In: +2 Show and Tell, + 2 Massacre, +3 Needle, +1 each of Tidespout, Iona, Grave Titan, and Ashen Rider.
Rationale: Changing 11 cards seems like a LOT of boarding, but I keep the same number of fatties but have stronger reanimation targets. Daze is weak vs Thalia, Cavernn of Souls, and vial. Massacre is a no-brainer, and less Studies since I may run into graveyard hate (Priest or RIP in particular)
G2: I tank on my opening hand and eventually throw it back.
Island, petal, entomb, reanimate, needle, grisel, exhume.
Rationale: I need 2 B sources for that hand to work and I only had 1. I have no cantrips in hand and there are 16 B sources left in my deck (13 lands + 3 more petals). That's only a 37% chance of top decking a B source, so I could be stuck high and dry with no B mana for multiple turns.
The resulting mull to 6 is solid and I T1 land, petal, entomb Grave Titan and Reanimate it. 10 power on 3 bodies that doesn't care about Karakas seemed better than Iona naming W. Was I wrong? He conceeds before I can kill him on T3.
G3: (no additional SBing). I mull to 6. My scry is an Entomb. I already have one in hand so I almost bottom it, but then reconsider b/c I have a Reanimate and an Exhume in my hand. I decide to keep the Entomb on top b/c, in previous weeks, I've noticed that my ability to get 2 fatties out quickly seems like a strong strategy vs D&T.
his T1: Vial
my T1: swamp, Thoughtseize taking Faerie Macabre
his T2, wasteland, mom
my T2, fetch swamp, entomb and reanimate Titan.
his T3: Swords the Titan, Phyrexian Revoker naming Grisel.
my T3: entomb and exhume Elesh. Slight error, I did this after combat; obviously should've done it before so I could attack with 4/4 zombies. I was originally thinking I would entomb and Reanimate Iona naming White post-combat, but changed my mind. As mentioned above, I think Elesh is better against an active Vial, but if I'm wrong please let me know. Elesh let me clear away mom and the revoker. Mom could have been annoying.
his T4: I think he passed
my T4: swing in, he vials in Flickerwisp, targeting Elesh, takes 4 from the zombies.
his T5: I think he tried to cast something and I forced it. He's at 12 life and I have lethal on board. He conceeds.

So I ended the night at 2-1. While I made a couple of mistakes, overall I played very tight. My main goal in the league is just to have fun and get more practice/experience playing the deck so I can improve my play.

Thanks for any pointers if you notice something I'm doing incorrectly.

[Cpt-Qc]

@PirateKing - Great piece of advice. One of the most important concepts when playing these type of decks is that given your initial hand you should already be able to figure out your plan. If you feel your hand can't sculpt one, then you should send it back.

As an afterthought while on the subway - how do you guys feel about running more than 1 sweeper in the board? Maybe a copy of toxic deluge? Post-board games usually go long and handling more than one hate creature with a single answer could be good.

I currently run a Massacre Wurm as a non-lengendary elesh and 2 massacre as sweepers (DnT has been fading away from my meta so I have not needed Dread of Night so much). I've had a lot success Show and Tell'ing a Wurm because if often takes a good chunk of health while clearing the board for the next reanimation.

Going back to UB only I've had more sideboard spaces to spare for sweepers which takes care of many DRS and/or most hatebears. Deluge seems like an "OK" card but it does cost 3 and life so by the time you cast it your might be unable to activate a griselbrand which is a concern.

Also since our staple cards are mostly 1 or 2 CMC (including the newest Collective Brutality) things like chalice or prelate can choke us so having higher cmc spells is always a good thing.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

What do you all think of a white splash with Scrubland for Wear//Tear compared with Bayou for Reverent Silence and Abrupt Decay?

[PirateKing]

What do you all think of a white splash with Scrubland for Wear//Tear compared with Bayou for Reverent Silence and Abrupt Decay?

To do what? What's the enchantment that's giving you grief?
It'll be hard to beat out Abrupt Decay in terms of getting rid of things no questions asked; so if you're splashing a color either way, green opens a lot of space beyond just Abrupt Decay. Golgari Charm can pull a lot of weight, and Pernicious Deed is an A+ rogue card.
A white splash does stuff, but it ends up warping the deck too far from where we're trying to stay. Yeah I mean Vindicate is cool, you can play Loyal Retainers which is exciting. But to maximize the effectiveness for these means sacrificing something in the core, so I wouldn't do it myself. The splash is best when it's just a splash.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

To do what? What's the enchantment that's giving you grief?
It'll be hard to beat out Abrupt Decay in terms of getting rid of things no questions asked; so if you're splashing a color either way, green opens a lot of space beyond just Abrupt Decay. Golgari Charm can pull a lot of weight, and Pernicious Deed is an A+ rogue card.
A white splash does stuff, but it ends up warping the deck too far from where we're trying to stay. Yeah I mean Vindicate is cool, you can play Loyal Retainers which is exciting. But to maximize the effectiveness for these means sacrificing something in the core, so I wouldn't do it myself. The splash is best when it's just a splash.

Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Leyline of the Void

Game 2 I would side in Collective Brutality, 2 Lake of The Dead, and Wear//Tear for anti hate.

Sorry I'm in the wrong thread I thought this was for BR Reanimator

[PirateKing]

Echoing Truth solves Leyline just as well, along with a number of other cards. And then we're talking about a T4 enchantment that doesn't affect cards already in the graveyard.
If you really want it dead for good then Golgari Charm does that plus other relevant things.

But if you're also considering Lake of the Dead, then maybe we're just on different frequencies.

[Cpt-Qc]

Sorry I'm in the wrong thread I thought this was for BR Reanimator

Well that explains it.

[Joh4n]

Soo, whats going on here? No brainstorm, and 4x lotus bloom? :eek:
Took down a 79 ppl tourney in Japan.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD08495W/

[pettdan]

Soo, whats going on here? No brainstorm, and 4x lotus bloom? :eek:
Took down a 79 ppl tourney in Japan.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD08495W/

That's most likely 4 Lotus Petals.

[crowe_1]

FoW maindeck with just 14 blue cards seems sketchy. Have to try it I guess.

[bobomb]

FoW maindeck with just 14 blue cards seems sketchy. Have to try it I guess.

Only 12 lands too! And thought I was skirting the minimum with 14. Though he did make room for Dark Ritual.

[crowe_1]

^
After goldfishing a few dozen times the FoW problem didn't come up very often partly because I could discard it to Collective Brutality when it was dead. Having counterspells with Chancellor in play feels good.

What did come up was the 12 lands. A lot of games were just mulled to oblivion due to not having mana in the opener. I tried dropping a couple CB for more lands as that seems like the most expendable card. Was a smidge more consistent but in actual practice you might feel the reduced disruption. This guy did well with it though, so...

[bobomb]

^

Yeah one nice thing about a reanimated Chancellor is it keeps Daze alive later in the game.

[bobomb]

An interesting take on UB:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16644&d=302948&f=LE

4x Chancellor, 4x Dark Ritual, No FoW, Defense Grid from the sideboard.

[PirateKing]

An interesting take on UB:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16644&d=302948&f=LE

4x Chancellor, 4x Dark Ritual, No FoW, Defense Grid from the sideboard.

I wonder why someone would play this over a RB list.

Chancellor of the Annex, Lotus Petal and Dark Ritual all point towards a fast T1 reanimate, and with 4 Griselbrand it looks like that's their main target, but without any free spells, there is no protection from removal. Is the plan to just draw into a second attempt in the face of Swords to Plowshares?

Like the list looks fast but without any resilience, all of you interaction is sorcery speed. Which are the selling points of RB decks.

[ShiftedClock]

Interesting UBr version (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/744498#paper) 5-0'd recently. Reminds me of what people used to call "Young Frankenstein".

It really seems like UBR Control with only 3 Reanimate and 2 Exhume for Grisel. Entomb for Deep Analysis as required.

[XIII]

I wonder why someone would play this over a RB list.

Chancellor of the Annex, Lotus Petal and Dark Ritual all point towards a fast T1 reanimate, and with 4 Griselbrand it looks like that's their main target, but without any free spells, there is no protection from removal. Is the plan to just draw into a second attempt in the face of Swords to Plowshares?

Like the list looks fast but without any resilience, all of you interaction is sorcery speed. Which are the selling points of RB decks.

The guy plays 4x Brainstorm. You could drop the 4x Brainstorm and replace it by 4x Daze for free protection.

[MorphBerlin]

Interesting UBr version (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/744498#paper) 5-0'd recently. Reminds me of what people used to call "Young Frankenstein".

It really seems like UBR Control with only 3 Reanimate and 2 Exhume for Grisel. Entomb for Deep Analysis as required.

I played against this guy and.my feeling.is, that you have to get infinitly lucky for this pile to work. He always had the right.half of the deck for my answers but.If you dont.draw.like this you will be doomed. (I might upload the video later) You have the surprise.factor on your side though.

[atlain2]

I wonder why someone would play this over a RB list.

Like the list looks fast but without any resilience, all of you interaction is sorcery speed. Which are the selling points of RB decks.

I've tried this list a little bit just via goldfishing. Yes, it does run more like RB Reanimator, aiming to be very fast and very redundant so that it can reanimate multiple creatures per game if need be. From my limited tinkering, I think the reason to play this over RB is for access to Brainstorm (and possibly Ponder if you cram a couple in). One thing I've noticed playing against RB is that they quickly fall into topdeck mode, and they don't have much to help them dig besides Faithless Looting, which doesn't help if you don't have anything else left to discard besides the cards you draw with it. This build gives the deck just a little more opportunity to dig for 'the right card' after the opening hand is depleted.

The other goal of the deck is to ramp up the pressure via discard rather than relying on counters. Currently, discard seems to be viewed as stronger than leaning on countermagic, especially against decks like Sneak and Show, Storm, and perhaps Topless Miracles. Daze is weak on the draw and can rot in your hand if there's no good use for it on the first 1-2 turns, so it's a terrible late draw. E.g., I think there have been 3 times in recent games where an opponent played something I needed to counter, but the Daze in my hand was worthless b/c they had a mana left open. Conversely, I can only recall successfully Dazing a single spell in recent weeks. The Defense Grids are likely a response to a meta with lots of Delver and Miracles strategies.

That said, on first impression I'm not too impressed with the deck. Like RB Reanimator, it tends to empty its hand really fast and then it has little to work with after the first turn or two. If they draw into their removal or they have more removal than you have discard spells, then you're going nowhere fast. I also found this version harder to SB with. In the Daze version of the deck, it's pretty routine to side out the Dazes on the draw, opening up room for good SB tech pieces. But in this version there's less to sideboard out without cutting discard spells, but those are meant to be the protection for your fatties, so cutting them post-board leaves you even more vulnerable to your opponent's interaction.

I thus suspect I'll return to the more traditional build. I kinda like the Defense Grids in the SB vs a counter-heavy meta. I'm less sold on the W splash for Serenity as an answer to Cage/RIP/Leyline since you have to wait a full turn for it to work, they see it coming a mile away, and it messes with your mana base a little.

[atlain2]

Interesting UBr version (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/744498#paper) 5-0'd recently. Reminds me of what people used to call "Young Frankenstein".

It really seems like UBR Control with only 3 Reanimate and 2 Exhume for Grisel. Entomb for Deep Analysis as required.

Agreed, it looks like a Grixis Control list forgoing Gurmag Anglers for a different wincon. Grisel & elesh may be stronger than Angler, but are the extra hoops you have to jmp through really worth it?

I've always liked the idea of Grixis Reanimator, but I can't convince myself that R adds enough to the deck to make it worthwhile to stretch into 3 colors. Faithless Looting is a thing but you have plenty of discard via B. I've never been a huge fan of Izzet Charm in the deck; you're paying more mana- and splashing a third color- to do things that U and B can do at lower CMCs. I do, however, like the idea of Firestorm, at least as a SB option vs small creature decks.
T1: Deathrite Shaman (or Mom or Delver)
My T1: Firestorm discarding 2, two damage to you and your weenie. possibly follow up with Lotus Petal and Reanimate.
Abrade might also be a SB option for dealing with both small creatures and artifact-based graveyard hate such as Cage.

[Pomegrant]

I've tried this list a little bit just via goldfishing. Yes, it does run more like RB Reanimator, aiming to be very fast and very redundant so that it can reanimate multiple creatures per game if need be. From my limited tinkering, I think the reason to play this over RB is for access to Brainstorm (and possibly Ponder if you cram a couple in). One thing I've noticed playing against RB is that they quickly fall into topdeck mode, and they don't have much to help them dig besides Faithless Looting, which doesn't help if you don't have anything else left to discard besides the cards you draw with it. This build gives the deck just a little more opportunity to dig for 'the right card' after the opening hand is depleted.

The other goal of the deck is to ramp up the pressure via discard rather than relying on counters. Currently, discard seems to be viewed as stronger than leaning on countermagic, especially against decks like Sneak and Show, Storm, and perhaps Topless Miracles. Daze is weak on the draw and can rot in your hand if there's no good use for it on the first 1-2 turns, so it's a terrible late draw. E.g., I think there have been 3 times in recent games where an opponent played something I needed to counter, but the Daze in my hand was worthless b/c they had a mana left open. Conversely, I can only recall successfully Dazing a single spell in recent weeks. The Defense Grids are likely a response to a meta with lots of Delver and Miracles strategies.

That said, on first impression I'm not too impressed with the deck. Like RB Reanimator, it tends to empty its hand really fast and then it has little to work with after the first turn or two. If they draw into their removal or they have more removal than you have discard spells, then you're going nowhere fast. I also found this version harder to SB with. In the Daze version of the deck, it's pretty routine to side out the Dazes on the draw, opening up room for good SB tech pieces. But in this version there's less to sideboard out without cutting discard spells, but those are meant to be the protection for your fatties, so cutting them post-board leaves you even more vulnerable to your opponent's interaction.

I thus suspect I'll return to the more traditional build. I kinda like the Defense Grids in the SB vs a counter-heavy meta. I'm less sold on the W splash for Serenity as an answer to Cage/RIP/Leyline since you have to wait a full turn for it to work, they see it coming a mile away, and it messes with your mana base a little.

That deck posted is by me. I 5-0'd two leagues a while ago and I only played it because I submitted it by mistake. The sideboard at the time was really bad and I had made the deck list earlier in the year. Since then I've cut stupid stuff like Serenity, which I was playing when Eldrazi was in a huge upswing on MTGO.

Personally, I don't think my deck is a 'UB' build of Reanimator. I'm not playing any of the traditional permission and I'm trying to go as fast as possible to condense the game into as few decisions as I can. I want to beat Deathrite Shaman with speed and overloading their counter magic. I don't think this style is superior to another, just the kind I like to play personally.

For those who are interested, I have a current list:
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Entomb
3 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Show and Tell
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Massacre
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Defense Grid

I'm a big fan of Defense Grid as a sideboard option but it's obviously terrible if you're trying to play your own counterspells. I play the card as a colorless Duress most of the time because it usually eats Force of Wills. I've liked Engineered Explosives and is worth trying out. It plays well against Death and Taxes as Thalia doesn't do anything to it and it's nice to just be able to play it on one and just leave it there to set up a turn to blow up their DRS and then reanimate something.

[atlain2]

That deck posted is by me. I 5-0'd two leagues a while ago and I only played it because I submitted it by mistake. The sideboard at the time was really bad and I had made the deck list earlier in the year. Since then I've cut stupid stuff like Serenity, which I was playing when Eldrazi was in a huge upswing on MTGO.

Personally, I don't think my deck is a 'UB' build of Reanimator. I'm not playing any of the traditional permission and I'm trying to go as fast as possible to condense the game into as few decisions as I can. I want to beat Deathrite Shaman with speed and overloading their counter magic. I don't think this style is superior to another, just the kind I like to play personally.

For those who are interested, I have a current list:
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Entomb
3 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Show and Tell
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Massacre
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Defense Grid

I'm a big fan of Defense Grid as a sideboard option but it's obviously terrible if you're trying to play your own counterspells. I play the card as a colorless Duress most of the time because it usually eats Force of Wills. I've liked Engineered Explosives and is worth trying out. It plays well against Death and Taxes as Thalia doesn't do anything to it and it's nice to just be able to play it on one and just leave it there to set up a turn to blow up their DRS and then reanimate something.

Thanks for the info on the deck, and congrats on the 5-0 finishes! Yeah, it does seem to play out more like the RB reanimator lists than the traditional UB lists. I think I'll stick to a more traditional UB build for now, though there are some ideas in your list I like. E.g., I'm wondering if it' worth siding out FoW vs UW decks; I have little chance of out-countering them, so perhaps siding into Defense Grid + more hand disruption is worth trying.

[Pomegrant]

Thanks for the info on the deck, and congrats on the 5-0 finishes! Yeah, it does seem to play out more like the RB reanimator lists than the traditional UB lists. I think I'll stick to a more traditional UB build for now, though there are some ideas in your list I like. E.g., I'm wondering if it' worth siding out FoW vs UW decks; I have little chance of out-countering them, so perhaps siding into Defense Grid + more hand disruption is worth trying.
I much prefer to have discard + defense grid against blue decks because you know what kind of hate you have to play against and have a card that shuts down all of their counters. Counter vs Counters won't work out for you because you're forced to reanimate something otherwise you can't win. They just get to sit back and wait for you to make the plays. However, Countermagic is much better when playing in combo mirrors. You have a lot of good reanimation targets, but sometimes they just go faster than you. Since reanimating things doesn't cost a lot of mana, counter spells allow you to protect yourself and advance your game plan. It's not that one is better than the other, just based on how you prefer to play and what's better at a given time.

[KobeBryan]

i was playing against this reanimator deck on cockatrice today. this guy played reanimator game one, which he won. then game two, i bring in jate and he lets it all resolve. i then see him play delver and young pyro and deathrite shaman. what did he do.

[PuppyWuppy]

Does anyone know of an article/forum regarding Daze? I'm trying to understand when is it appropriate to side it out and all.

[PirateKing]

i was playing against this reanimator deck on cockatrice today. this guy played reanimator game one, which he won. then game two, i bring in jate and he lets it all resolve. i then see him play delver and young pyro and deathrite shaman. what did he do.

You could run a transformation sideboard, I've looked at it in the past.

If you drop the 7 big creatures and Exhume and Animate Dead, you have 12 open slots to bring in a Grixis Delver board. Careful Study and Entomb are lackluster but serve to feed Young Pyromancer and fuel Deathrite, and a set of Reanimated either recur their own cheap dudes or target your graveyard for value.

Problem was it gets all-or-nothing fast. You end up having to write off ever winning against decks that prey on greed like Stompy and D&T, but you can fake out wins against the fair decks like Delvers and the like.

[jethstriker]

Hello guys.

A few pages back someone asked about the potential of Winds of Rebuke but it seems it got overlooked. I would like to ask again if someone has tried and have experience using this card in the sideboard as a replacement for Echoing Truth? Seems like a decent card for the deck, you can even maindeck it if your meta has too much hate against Reanimator. Or is the utility attached to Echoing Truth still better?

Also another card in this line got recently previewed in Ixalan: Perilous Voyage. Same mana cost with truth and rebuke with almost same bounce effect but with different extra effect: you scry 2 if the bounced permanent has 2 or less mana cost. What do you guys think?

[meffeo]

Hello guys.

A few pages back someone asked about the potential of Winds of Rebuke but it seems it got overlooked. I would like to ask again if someone has tried and have experience using this card in the sideboard as a replacement for Echoing Truth? Seems like a decent card for the deck, you can even maindeck it if your meta has too much hate against Reanimator. Or is the utility attached to Echoing Truth still better?

Also another card in this line got recently previewed in Ixalan: Perilous Voyage. Same mana cost with truth and rebuke with almost same bounce effect but with different extra effect: you scry 2 if the bounced permanent has 2 or less mana cost. What do you guys think?

Putting two unknown cards in the bin is not the ideal scenario, you had to know first which those cards are and that's not possible all the time. Perilous Voyage looks fine but since Echoing Truth is mainly used against LofV, you won't be able to scry most of the time.

I will still stick to the more powerful Echoing Truth since it bounces multiple copies of [substitute with any copy of the annoying permanent that is not letting you go off].

[PirateKing]

Does anyone know of an article/forum regarding Daze? I'm trying to understand when is it appropriate to side it out and all.

What are your questions?
Do you still have the green splash or back to OG colors?

Daze most often is the thing that gets sided out first after you know what your opponent is on. It's a weak card against most opponents, but it's universally balanced, so it performs against unknown opponents game 1. Once you have an idea what they're doing or going to do against you, you have more potent cards for that matchup.

[Cpt-Qc]

Hello guys.

A few pages back someone asked about the potential of Winds of Rebuke but it seems it got overlooked. I would like to ask again if someone has tried and have experience using this card in the sideboard as a replacement for Echoing Truth? Seems like a decent card for the deck, you can even maindeck it if your meta has too much hate against Reanimator. Or is the utility attached to Echoing Truth still better?

Also another card in this line got recently previewed in Ixalan: Perilous Voyage. Same mana cost with truth and rebuke with almost same bounce effect but with different extra effect: you scry 2 if the bounced permanent has 2 or less mana cost. What do you guys think?

Yeah I brought Winds just in case someone saw something in it that I didn't but I wouldn't play it unless you're looking for a fun-of. Leave that for when you mastered the deck only and are looking for spice.

Etruth is better than this new spell. It's best target is probably Leyline of the void, which can come in multiple copies and is 4 mana. It also works well on double Chalice on 1, the "bounce all" clause is quite game-changing sometimes while scry is okay at best (don't forget we are already playing blue and have access to brainstorm/ponder/preordain).


Does anyone know of an article/forum regarding Daze? I'm trying to understand when is it appropriate to side it out and all.

The easy answer as to when to side out daze is "always" unless both conditions for keeping it are met: 1-You do not have other good cards to side in , 2-You are on the play.

[PuppyWuppy]

What are your questions?
Do you still have the green splash or back to OG colors?

Daze most often is the thing that gets sided out first after you know what your opponent is on. It's a weak card against most opponents, but it's universally balanced, so it performs against unknown opponents game 1. Once you have an idea what they're doing or going to do against you, you have more potent cards for that matchup.

I currently am running just blue black.

I was wondering when Daze is usually sided out. I know that it's usually bad on the draw and maybe, depending on the match up, should be played in the main during the play. Since it's very situational when Daze should be sided out I was wondering if there was any articles written about it, but I after quite a few testing I think I got it figured it out. :wink:

[PirateKing]

I currently am running just blue black.

I was wondering when Daze is usually sided out. I know that it's usually bad on the draw and maybe, depending on the match up, should be played in the main during the play. Since it's very situational when Daze should be sided out I was wondering if there was any articles written about it, but I after quite a few testing I think I got it figured it out. :wink:

It's not so situational when it gets sided out, it's usually very special circumstances when it gets left in.
Cpt-Qc summarized it as best as I could. With a well build sideboard, any card should be better against a known opponent than Daze, so it's practically always sided out.

[owerbart]

I was thinking about the fact that we sideboard dazes out so much that I dropped them off my list completely. I took stryfo's plan and went -3 daze +2 misdirection +1 land.

I played a 5 rounder with this

3 sea
1 trop
1 bayou
2 swamp
1 island
9 fetches

4 fow
2 misdirection

4 bs
3 ponder
4 careful

4 entomb

2 thoughtseize
2 show and tell

4 reani
4 exhume
2 a. Dead

3 gris
1 elesh
1 iona
1 tyrant
1 grave titan
1 hapless researcher

1 pithing needle

Sb:

3 decay
2 echoing truth
1 needle
1 keranos
1 swan song
1 duress
2 seize
2 show and tell
1 teferis realn
1 massacre


R1 vs sneak and show.

G1 he goes off t2 with fow back up. I have a iona to show but i can't get emrakul out.
G2 all my discard kills his hand, i eventually go off like t5
G3 he goes to 5, i go off t3 with duress and fow back up

R2 grixis control
Both games are the same. I mull to oblivion, my cantrips do nothing and he has the nut draws. But well, it happens.

R3 elves
G1 iona t2, fow shaman t1
G2 i keep a one lander with ponderino but can't find more
G3 norn t2

R4 uw stoneblade
G1 is marathonic. My tyrant gets plowed and my titan hits once before getting plowed too. He has karakas since t2, and i eventually find my MD copy of needle and gris brings both elesh and iona.

G2 i have a t2 keranos which ignores his containment priest :)

R5 Death and taxes

G1 he has karakas since t1. I have a t2 gris, which doesn't get the best draws but finds enough gas for a t3 titan with protection against his plows. I think i navigate the board decently, he is on just 1 land and a vial, so when i find my needle i go for vial instead of karakas, while getting a hit with titan. Eventually he finds lands, but he taps out to cast a mirran crusader, i eot entomb, animate dead elesh norn and alpha strike for the win.

G2 i'm maybe a bit too scared of karakas so i go for a t2 titan instead of a griselbrand. He doesn't have karakas but his army is getting bigger and my titan gets overpowered. He taps his nowfound karakas for a sfm, i show and tell with elesh in hand, but he has containment priest, which means my SnT just cheated in his battterskull. I decay his priest, bin elesh, and try to exhume it, he had a macabre waiting :(

No time for g3, but we play it out just for fun. He doesn't draws his karakas, i have an active keranos and a g titan seals the deal.

So overall a 4-1, 3-1-1 in the scorecards. Misdirection i used it only once as a semi-fow and did the trick, dazes weren't missed. DNT and karakas MUs felt much better with a md pithing needle. A card that i would really like to try is strategic planning against the grixis/4c control that are getting more popular each day. In those MUs you udually have some time and strategic planning could work as pseudo careful study that wouldn't generate card disadvantage.

[crowe_1]

Interesting idea. With all the blue DRS decks running around games keep going longer and longer so Daze might not be where we want to be anymore.

Thoughts on Unmask rather than Misdirection? Might be useful in more situations even if it doesn't lead to the blow outs Misdirection does.

EDIT: Other possible advantages to dropping Daze:
- MD doesn't stunt mana development
- Without Daze you're under less pressure to fetch Underground Sea on turn one, which can get wasted and leave you unable to cast Exhume on turn two.

[atlain2]

Interesting idea. With all the blue DRS decks running around games keep going longer and longer so Daze might not be where we want to be anymore.

Thoughts on Unmask rather than Misdirection? Might be useful in more situations even if it doesn't lead to the blow outs Misdirection does.

EDIT: Other possible advantages to dropping Daze:
- MD doesn't stunt mana development
- Without Daze you're under less pressure to fetch Underground Sea on turn one, which can get wasted and leave you unable to cast Exhume on turn two.

I haven't gotten to play in a few weeks, but I'm tweaking my deck list to also cut Daze. The mana development is one issue that often hurts me in games, and the fact that it becomes a dead card so quickly, not to mention that I do almost always side them out for post-board games anyway.
In those 3 slots I opted for the following:
+1 fetch. Brings my land count to 16. I seem to mulligan a LOT due to no-land hands with only 15 in the deck, so I want to go up 1 land.
+1 Collective brutality. Lots of DNT in my meta, so I need ways to axe Containment Priests.
+1 Echoing Truth. Was in the SB but I almost always side some number in. I considered Needle, but with Dazes out I wanted to have enough FoW fuel MD, so I picked a U card from my SB. Also gonna try Defense Grids in the SB, as more folks locally are trying out Ux control shells.

So far I've been happy with D Rit in place of Lotus Petal. DRit can allow some powerful lines of play and can put U decks in a tough spot. E.g., they don't want to counter the DR, but if they don't, they have to burn their counter on my follow-up discard spell, which clears the way for a follow-up reanimation spell. I noticed BR Reanimator opponents doing this to me, so I'm trying it out myself.

Re: Unmask, I tries it previously. It was OK as a one-of, but it creates too much card disadvantage to run a second copy. It worked better with DRits in place of Petals since that kept the B count higher. I might rotate it back in if I don't like my current configuration of disruption (I thin I'm on 3 TS and 2 CB).

[Final Fortune]

Dark Ritual doesn't make a lot of sense to me without Collective Brutality to maximize all of the 3 mana lines of play, I think if you ditch Lotus Petal then you ditch Daze as well to fit both Dark Ritual and Collective Brutality. 16-17 blue cards is enough for FoW, fwiw.

[PuppyWuppy]

I haven't gotten to play in a few weeks, but I'm tweaking my deck list to also cut Daze. The mana development is one issue that often hurts me in games, and the fact that it becomes a dead card so quickly, not to mention that I do almost always side them out for post-board games anyway.
In those 3 slots I opted for the following:
+1 fetch. Brings my land count to 16. I seem to mulligan a LOT due to no-land hands with only 15 in the deck, so I want to go up 1 land.
+1 Collective brutality. Lots of DNT in my meta, so I need ways to axe Containment Priests.
+1 Echoing Truth. Was in the SB but I almost always side some number in. I considered Needle, but with Dazes out I wanted to have enough FoW fuel MD, so I picked a U card from my SB. Also gonna try Defense Grids in the SB, as more folks locally are trying out Ux control shells.

So far I've been happy with D Rit in place of Lotus Petal. DRit can allow some powerful lines of play and can put U decks in a tough spot. E.g., they don't want to counter the DR, but if they don't, they have to burn their counter on my follow-up discard spell, which clears the way for a follow-up reanimation spell. I noticed BR Reanimator opponents doing this to me, so I'm trying it out myself.

Re: Unmask, I tries it previously. It was OK as a one-of, but it creates too much card disadvantage to run a second copy. It worked better with DRits in place of Petals since that kept the B count higher. I might rotate it back in if I don't like my current configuration of disruption (I thin I'm on 3 TS and 2 CB).

I think Dazes are really situational for one's meta. In my area combo decks are fairly popular so having dazes are nice. I'm currently running two copies of Collective Brutality and 1 Thoughtseize with 13 lands(2 Chrome Mox), just from the last two events that I played Collective Brutality actually saved me quite a bit.

[Cpt-Qc]

Interesting idea. With all the blue DRS decks running around games keep going longer and longer so Daze might not be where we want to be anymore.

Thoughts on Unmask rather than Misdirection? Might be useful in more situations even if it doesn't lead to the blow outs Misdirection does.

EDIT: Other possible advantages to dropping Daze:
- MD doesn't stunt mana development
- Without Daze you're under less pressure to fetch Underground Sea on turn one, which can get wasted and leave you unable to cast Exhume on turn two.

I've had this feeling about daze for a while now. The only reason I was still playing it was the "it's free" argument. Daze / Petal means Tidespout is that much better. I used misdirections for a while and most often than not it's dead G1. Many of our spells are already card disadvantage so this puts even more strain on the little cards we have left in hand. Now I have not played the deck for a while because BR brought too much attention on the yard but I might consider replacing them with dark rits / collective brutality. In addition to thoughtseize, it makes for a pretty solid counterspells/drs hate maindeck. Plus you could always Dark Rit + TS + SNT with your second land or keep mana up for daze. It makes for some unexpected plays.

[owerbart]

I went 5-0 in my LGS tonight with the last slow list i posted here :)

2-1 Grixis Control
2-1 BUG Post
2-0 Death and Taxes
2-1 Dragon Stompy
2-0 Eldrazi

I'll edit this post late tonight to write a report, overall the list felt great!

Edit:

R1 grixis control
G1 i have a t1 researcher. He doesn't have pressure, i cantrip so my t4 is unstoppable.
G2 i mull to 6, i have reanimate, show and tell and griselbrand. A ponder shows me entomb and thoughtseize, i keep entomb with the idea of seizing + going off all next turn. He has pyromancer and therapies my entomb and show and tell. So in my turn i seize myself and reanimate my griselbrand, but i'm in too low life to draw cards. He topdecks a strix, then a second one, and he overwhelms my gris :(
G3 i have t1 researcher, he probes... No lands! He never plays a spell.

1-0

R2 BUG Post
G1 he opens t1 shaman. I have my needle. Then t2 a cloudpost and i have no clue what's going on. My cantrips don't help, i only have a a show and tell for gris. I wait till t4 to seize+show. He has brainstorm and prime time. I take out the titan, show and tell. He brainstorms, and finds another prime titan :(

G2 i shred him with discard and go off.

G3 it's similar to g2. Eventually i have animate dead that bypasses his flusterstorm :)

R3 D n T

G1 a quick griselbrand finds my needle, quick game from there.
G2 he has t1 needle for gris, t2 revoker and macabres away my t2 reanimate on keranos. But eventually my t4 grave titan pushes through.

R4 Dragon Stompy

G1 i have a t1 entomb, t2 animate dead for iona. He has bridge but eventually he has a hand full of red cards and concedes.
G2 he has leyline, i fow a trini but my cantrips don't help and i die to rabblemaster beats.
G3 he goes to 5, i have a t3 griselbrand

R5 eldrazi.

G1 i find an entomb just on the last turn, he has enbringers out but he only leaves urborg untapped, so gris is able to attack in my turn.
G2 he mulls to 3 searching for leyline, doesn't find it. I have a t3 titan

Overall the deck felt solid, i feel i had a lot of good MUs. Death and Taxes felt really even. Needle MD was MVP :)

[owerbart]

So the weekend just started, some offbeat sideboard ideas for the slow builds, these are cards that I would like to test tomorrow in my SB

Xantid Swarm: This was a classic weapon in storm builds. I'm still playing green in my sb so maybe it deserves a try? Against the grixis 4c control decks you will usually fight on the stack, so Xantid could become annoying for them.

Strategic Planning: Looks like a good cantrip post board when you may need to refill on resources. I didn't try it at all but going like, see 3, dump fatty, get reanimation spell looks nice.

Sylvan Library: Seems good to get some selection, the lifeloss might hurt, but post sb reanimates aren't that great anyway

Dreams of the Dead: All our fatties are either black or white, only exception would be tidespout. Getting to 4 mana can be tough but in long games it might be reachable and having griselbrand for at least two turns seems amazing.

Overall, xantid and dreams could work on the same axiom that Teferi's realm: A proactive way to fight against hate (realm on permanents, xantid on the stack, dreams on the stack as well)

Any thoughts?

[PuppyWuppy]

So the weekend just started, some offbeat sideboard ideas for the slow builds, these are cards that I would like to test tomorrow in my SB

Xantid Swarm: This was a classic weapon in storm builds. I'm still playing green in my sb so maybe it deserves a try? Against the grixis 4c control decks you will usually fight on the stack, so Xantid could become annoying for them.

Strategic Planning: Looks like a good cantrip post board when you may need to refill on resources. I didn't try it at all but going like, see 3, dump fatty, get reanimation spell looks nice.

Sylvan Library: Seems good to get some selection, the lifeloss might hurt, but post sb reanimates aren't that great anyway

Dreams of the Dead: All our fatties are either black or white, only exception would be tidespout. Getting to 4 mana can be tough but in long games it might be reachable and having griselbrand for at least two turns seems amazing.

Overall, xantid and dreams could work on the same axiom that Teferi's realm: A proactive way to fight against hate (realm on permanents, xantid on the stack, dreams on the stack as well)

Any thoughts?

Xantid Swarm: I'm not a huge fan of it. against 4 color control decks. i feel that they would have a way to either kill or counter the card. Plus it would mean that would need at least to wait a turn before going off. Plus depending on one's build I think a combination of thoughtseize, flusterstorm, fow, daze, and collective brutality would clear the path well enough.

Strategic Planning: Seems like a 2 mana version of careful study. A way to get a fatty into the grave yard, get a reanimation spell, or even work with brainstorm. Plus it would work around chalice on 1. Seems to have merit so I would say testing this card would be worth it.

Sylvan Library: Even though getting to look at the top 3 cards is nice. I feel that the life loss from draw those extra cards are a huge draw back.

Dreams of the Dead: I agree that the mana cost for this card is high. Especially for a deck that runs under 16 lands. The upkeep cost for this card feels that it would hurt us more then benefit.

Also congrats on that 5-0 =D

[Fox]

Overall, xantid and dreams could work on the same axiom that Teferi's realm: A proactive way to fight against hate (realm on permanents, xantid on the stack, dreams on the stack as well). Any thoughts?

Teferi's Realm is a finesse card, and is going to pull you firmly towards prioritizing basic Island (perhaps two) and not running >1 basic Swamp. You will need a greater emphasis on board control (Coll. Brutality) or your own fair-ish plan (something like Mentors) to give the Realm time to deconstruct a puzzle like RiP & CP/Cage both on board. You can pair Realm with Serenity and/or instant speed reanimation effects (the latter is used with JVP builds, bonus points for EoT Jin-Gitaxias mind twisting). The instant speed implications enters the territory of Realm trigger on stack potentially float mana, check opponent response, name lands - technically still okay with exactly Usea, Daze and Reanimate all in hand [but you generally won't have enough life left for this sorcery speed path to matter]. These are much slower expert-level scenarios, so what exactly were you doing to survive up to such a point?

Xantid also seems a bit tough. Ideal opener would be Bayou -> Xantid, dodge Wasteland, into attack/black source/Entomb & Reanimate. If it's not in some ideal opener, I feel like it's probably just a worse topdeck than discard? Xantid seems like a SnT card, where we are trying to maximize an attack from the hand in as many directions as possible (still need to solve mana issues). There's probably also some legacy achievement you could unlock by running SB Xantid +/- SB DRS (alongside MD Hapless) and going for the Recurring Nightmare like a boss; in this case though DRS begins to address just how we're getting to three mana for the Xantid plan to be more likely to work without necessarily having to change mana base. Without the consistency of Mystical Tutor [banned], the ideal scenario seems difficult to assemble.

Strategic Planning looks like a worse Chart a Course, particularly if you're running Hapless Researcher. Much more likely to draw out countermagic if opponent sees "draw 2." This option is more appealing if we're looking for more emphasis on a blue plan or even just blue count.

Dreams of the Dead is just worse than SnT; more expensive, still open to yard hate.

Sylvan Library seems like a really fun way to run Death's Shadow alongside Grisel - that combat math is glorious when both are out and about; a better subgame than Shahrazad for sure. By itself, not interested in seeing 2 cards down unless dredgers are in the mix (Darkblast or Dakmor). Dredgers aren't profitable until you're replacing 2 draws, but having one in the mix will let you see further down.

At some point it may become more productive to ask whether or not you want to just play some copies of Smallpox + Dakmor and see what happens (this still seems more suspect than just some copies of SB SnT or an amount of Shallow Grave in the main)?? Edit: what about SB Ground Seal in a Shallow Grave presentation of the deck?

[PuppyWuppy]

Went 4-0 last

Round 1: Vs Mono red prison (2-1)
Round 2: Vs Aluren (2-1)
Round 3: Vs Esper StoneMentor (2-0)
Round 4: Vs Burn (2-0)

My deck
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-09-17-blue-black-reanimator/

Round 1.
Game 1. Opponent turn 1 chalice through an city of traitors. Did not have a force and thought I knew what he was on so I scooped without playing anything for game 2.
Game 2. Turn 1 Chancellor with two revealed. (win)
Game 3. Opponent had leyline out. Turn two show and tell Tidespout with the only basic island in my deck cause he had magus of the moon out. (win)

Round 2.
Game 1: Got Griselbrand out quick enough to stop his tracks (win)
Game 2: kept a slow hand. Also opponent had Deathrite and I got brainstorm locked =(
Game 3: Turn 2 Elesh Norn followed by Griselbrand

Round 3.
Game 1: Played turn 2 Griselbrand. Opponents attempts to Sword him twice. I draw 14 cards and allow it to resolve. Then just go nuts with the reanimation.
Game 2: Another nutty game. Opening was petal, land, show and tell, griselbrand, chancellor, force of will. Scryed an inkwell. Turn two I draw another petal. Cast show and tell. force of willed back my opponent's force pitching inkwell and got a griselbrand out. Opponent had Monastery Mentor out as well so by all means he could have out raced me. Drew brainstorm, cast brain storm saw that there was 1 of the 2 massacre that I brought in. Wiped the board after combat and proceeded to take the win. (win)

Round 4.
It's burn.... Turn 1/Turn 2 Iona. lol


Things to improve.

So turns out that I'm actually awful at remembering chancellor triggers. I know this will get me a warning at a major event, so going to try to improve on that a bit.

[crowe_1]

This pile just 5-0'd a league:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17253&d=306757&f=LE

2 Flusterstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Intuition
2 Lotus Petal
3 Daze
3 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Animate Dead
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Ashen Rider
4 Hapless Researcher
4 Griselbrand
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
SB:
1 Trickbind
1 Boomerang
1 Disenchant
4 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Fatal Push
1 Hydroblast
1 Massacre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

Anybody ever try Volrath's Shapeshifter? Is it something we could adapt, or is it too slow and/or pointless?

Disadvantages:
- a lot of mana; might be better if it was just another cheaper Reanimation spell
- no longer works with Iona under new rules (I think...)

Advantages:
- Pseudo-Reanimation and discard outlet in one.
- Blue card for FoW
- Can be a chump blocker in a pinch
- Plays around Grafdigger's Cage
- Allows one Griselbrand activation through a DRS, Surgical Extraction, etc. Same with Tidespout trigger potentially.
- Entombing Elesh Norn would kill DRS as a state-based effect meaning no exile in response (I think)

Thoughts?

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm SUPER late to the party, but I've been back on the Reanimators lately, and I haven't been running Daze at all. My disruption's 2x Thoughtseize (1x in 'board), 2x Brutality, 4x Force. I'm also running three Dark Rituals in the main.

So far it's been working well against everything but hard-control (Miracles). I'm only on 17 blue cards in the maindeck, but it hasn't really been a problem for Force yet. Worth mentioning that a stranded Dark Ritual turns Force into Cancel when we don't have another blue card lying around.

I find that when I'm worried about opposing countermagic, it's easy to junk a Ritual or a Brutality for a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur after sideboarding. I also often take out the others for a mix of Pithing Needle, Echoing Truth, and Thoughtseize #3.

Obviously this is all based on very limited testing, but I'm happy with it for the time being. Definitely happier than I was with Daze, which just didn't feel like it did much of anything. If we could fit land destruction into the deck, I might reconsider, but I don't have any plan to bring Daze back at the moment.

[Cpt_Lucifer]

Went 4-0 last

Round 1: Vs Mono red prison (2-1)
Round 2: Vs Aluren (2-1)
Round 3: Vs Esper StoneMentor (2-0)
Round 4: Vs Burn (2-0)

My deck
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-09-17-blue-black-reanimator/

Round 1.
Game 1. Opponent turn 1 chalice through an city of traitors. Did not have a force and thought I knew what he was on so I scooped without playing anything for game 2.
Game 2. Turn 1 Chancellor with two revealed. (win)
Game 3. Opponent had leyline out. Turn two show and tell Tidespout with the only basic island in my deck cause he had magus of the moon out. (win)

Round 2.
Game 1: Got Griselbrand out quick enough to stop his tracks (win)
Game 2: kept a slow hand. Also opponent had Deathrite and I got brainstorm locked =(
Game 3: Turn 2 Elesh Norn followed by Griselbrand

Round 3.
Game 1: Played turn 2 Griselbrand. Opponents attempts to Sword him twice. I draw 14 cards and allow it to resolve. Then just go nuts with the reanimation.
Game 2: Another nutty game. Opening was petal, land, show and tell, griselbrand, chancellor, force of will. Scryed an inkwell. Turn two I draw another petal. Cast show and tell. force of willed back my opponent's force pitching inkwell and got a griselbrand out. Opponent had Monastery Mentor out as well so by all means he could have out raced me. Drew brainstorm, cast brain storm saw that there was 1 of the 2 massacre that I brought in. Wiped the board after combat and proceeded to take the win. (win)

Round 4.
It's burn.... Turn 1/Turn 2 Iona. lol


Things to improve.

So turns out that I'm actually awful at remembering chancellor triggers. I know this will get me a warning at a major event, so going to try to improve on that a bit.Do you have a proper link to your list? This one seems to be broken...

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[fluuu]

Do you have a proper link to your list? This one seems to be broken...

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What is ur favourite discard shield?

I mean, i have look people with 4 unmask, people with 3 unmask 2 collective, with 4 collective... (all of them have 4 thoughtseize obviously).

Thoughts?

[11poster925]

This pile just 5-0'd a league:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17253&d=306757&f=LE

2 Flusterstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Intuition
2 Lotus Petal
3 Daze
3 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Animate Dead
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Ashen Rider
4 Hapless Researcher
4 Griselbrand
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
SB:
1 Trickbind
1 Boomerang
1 Disenchant
4 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Fatal Push
1 Hydroblast
1 Massacre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

Anybody ever try Volrath's Shapeshifter? Is it something we could adapt, or is it too slow and/or pointless?

Disadvantages:
- a lot of mana; might be better if it was just another cheaper Reanimation spell
- no longer works with Iona under new rules (I think...)

Advantages:
- Pseudo-Reanimation and discard outlet in one.
- Blue card for FoW
- Can be a chump blocker in a pinch
- Plays around Grafdigger's Cage
- Allows one Griselbrand activation through a DRS, Surgical Extraction, etc. Same with Tidespout trigger potentially.
- Entombing Elesh Norn would kill DRS as a state-based effect meaning no exile in response (I think)

Thoughts?


Anyone test this Volrath's Shapeshifter build? I see there is a bug list and a esper build. I see the obv defense against DRS, anyone have a primer or any feedback on play? I am building the bug list for a side build and hoping for some thoughts on this fun looking jam.

[bobomb]

A traditional UB Reanimator build made top 8 in the last legacy challenge:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17910&d=311025&f=LE

I thought the 4/2 split between Animate Dead and Exhume was interesting. I know Animate Dead plays nicer with Tidespout Tyrant (which is absent in this list), but Exhume plays nicer with Entomb on the stack.

Anyone have any ideas why they would prefer Animate Dead?

[PirateKing]

I'm not familiar with online pricing, but it seems unlikely to be a budget consideration.

It could be a high level meta call, if you're anticipating more than 1 RB Reanimator list, or multitudes of Czech Pile, casting Exhume and giving them a free Griselbrand or Leovold or Baleful Strix makes your own Griselbrand somewhat lackluster. If his list was decidedly slower, it would reinforce this, but with three Chancellor of the Annex and Lotus Petal each, he's comfortable going fast.

[Fox]

Flusterstorm doesn't affect AD is the only real advantage I can see. It is a little odd though to see 8x reanimation effects that can target both yards but little ability to bin enemy creatures (Coll. Brut x1 main and Thoughtseize x2 sb). Double basic Island is rather strange, as well as 15 land total trying to cast mainboard SnT x2 and activate sb Pack Rat x3. Looking a the fetches, I am further confused by 8x Fetch that grab basic Island and 5x Fetch that can find basic Swamp - what is the heavy blue plan that requires more than 1x Island?

[Karhumies]

what is the heavy blue plan that requires more than 1x Island?

Presumably, t2 Ponder/Brainstorm into Careful Study without giving the opponent a Wasteland target. You don't want to cantrip chain with Petals, but you don't mind using a Petal for B for the animation spell. 0 Thoughtseize + 0 Dark Ritual MD means you should always fetch for basic island t1 (unless you have Entomb and are willing to spread the Entomb t1 end into reanimation t2).

[Cpt-Qc]

Presumably, t2 Ponder/Brainstorm into Careful Study without giving the opponent a Wasteland target. You don't want to cantrip chain with Petals, but you don't mind using a Petal for B for the animation spell. 0 Thoughtseize + 0 Dark Ritual MD means you should always fetch for basic island t1 (unless you have Entomb and are willing to spread the Entomb t1 end into reanimation t2).

That seems like a weak play. IMO ponder is at it's best on T1 to setup going off the next turn. Since we don't have much mana to work with, you probably won't be going off the turn you cast it anyway so it doesn't make much sense to get another island for just that one spell (all our buisness spells are black). Plus if you decided to use dark ritual instead of petals, black is 1000 times better.

[Karhumies]

Silent Gravestone: worth it to run in the SB as anti Surgical, anti DRS, anti Faerie Macabre card?

Downside: requires using Exhume, Shallow Grave, Volrath's Shapeshifter and/or Necrotic Ooze.

[owerbart]

For us guys playing on the slow side, what do you think of a copy of search for azcanta in the sideboard?

[Fox]

For us guys playing on the slow side, what do you think of a copy of search for azcanta in the sideboard?
As a maindeck plan Azcanta would push you towards more 2-drop [or higher] spells and away from Petals. In the board it still pushes you away from Petals, but is nice as a pseudo-land to bring in to cast SnT. I think JVP is probably still better as it fits better with the 14-16 land approach and interacts with all sides of the combo; that said, the constant Sultai Ascendancy-like effect of Azcanta probably does more for the deck than Ponder.

[owerbart]

As a maindeck plan Azcanta would push you towards more 2-drop [or higher] spells and away from Petals. In the board it still pushes you away from Petals, but is nice as a pseudo-land to bring in to cast SnT. I think JVP is probably still better as it fits better with the 14-16 land approach and interacts with all sides of the combo; that said, the constant Sultai Ascendancy-like effect of Azcanta probably does more for the deck than Ponder.

Well i'm already playing 17 lands with zero means of acceleration. The binning effect is nice for fatties is of course nice, and also it looks as good way to retain the card advantage. I was thinking on 1 copy in the sideboard against blue control ecks. The main issue is that my sideboard is already pretty tight and the control match is much more manageable and competitive with the slow lists, since because you run no acceleration you have more cards that impact on the game in the long run (more reanimation spells, more digging). Going up to 5 discard spells made me feel much comfortable vs control.

[maCHOOga]

A traditional UB Reanimator build made top 8 in the last legacy challenge:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17910&d=311025&f=LE

I thought the 4/2 split between Animate Dead and Exhume was interesting. I know Animate Dead plays nicer with Tidespout Tyrant (which is absent in this list), but Exhume plays nicer with Entomb on the stack.

Anyone have any ideas why they would prefer Animate Dead?

I was trying to pick up UB Reanimator and this decklists was my catalyst. I've made some modifications (Exhume>Animated Dead) and Sire of Instantity, but the core of the deck is the same. Right now I'm lukewarm on packrat. I've got one person with it but other times it just immediately got pushes/bolted. (Not sure why they kept them in anyway, unless they didn't have enough cards to board in.) It's possible the 4x animate dead is to hedge against 4CC, since Exhume gets them back a strix to block.

Also, in a lot of the fair grindy matchups...I seem to board out FoW. Is this correct? I'm talking like DnT and 4CC Control. Thoughts?

[bobomb]

I was trying to pick up UB Reanimator and this decklists was my catalyst. I've made some modifications (Exhume>Animated Dead) and Sire of Instantity, but the core of the deck is the same. Right now I'm lukewarm on packrat. I've got one person with it but other times it just immediately got pushes/bolted. (Not sure why they kept them in anyway, unless they didn't have enough cards to board in.) It's possible the 4x animate dead is to hedge against 4CC, since Exhume gets them back a strix to block.

Also, in a lot of the fair grindy matchups...I seem to board out FoW. Is this correct? I'm talking like DnT and 4CC Control. Thoughts?

I have yet to try the pack rat plan personally so I can't comment on that.

Good call on exhume being weaker vs czech pile.

I hardly ever board out FoW. I run a 4/3 split between FoW and Daze and will board out the 3 daze for whatever I feel will counter their sideboard plan. Usually I'll bring in 2 pithing needles and an extra thoughtseize or something like that.

[Cpt-Qc]

I was trying to pick up UB Reanimator and this decklists was my catalyst. I've made some modifications (Exhume>Animated Dead) and Sire of Instantity, but the core of the deck is the same. Right now I'm lukewarm on packrat. I've got one person with it but other times it just immediately got pushes/bolted. (Not sure why they kept them in anyway, unless they didn't have enough cards to board in.) It's possible the 4x animate dead is to hedge against 4CC, since Exhume gets them back a strix to block.

Also, in a lot of the fair grindy matchups...I seem to board out FoW. Is this correct? I'm talking like DnT and 4CC Control. Thoughts?

First of all, UB reanimator cannot play Sire. It's extremely bad as our main way of protecting our combo/board is with countermagic. If you absolutely want to play it you'd better be playing RB instead. Fortunately for us we have Jin that's similar, if not better as it allows us to keep a hand while discarding our opponent's (your chances of drawing a counterspell and lasting till your opponent's end step are pretty good).

About FoW, I would say like the previous post that I almost never side it out. It's never great but it's also never dead as it's a catchall. At worst it can still stop a sideboard card that you did not expect so it's worth keeping them in. On the other hand, when I play misdirection main, I'll often side it out if it's not necessary in that matchup since it's restricted to countering counterspells and removal.

[ubernostrum]

First of all, UB reanimator cannot play Sire. It's extremely bad as our main way of protecting our combo/board is with countermagic. If you absolutely want to play it you'd better be playing RB instead. Fortunately for us we have Jin that's similar, if not better as it allows us to keep a hand while discarding our opponent's (your chances of drawing a counterspell and lasting till your opponent's end step are pretty good).

U/B can play Sire. It's more of a metagame call.

Back when Top was legal, Sire was very good against Miracles. It still has some utility against post-ban Miracles, and if you pop it early enough it's also a powerhouse against storm and glass-cannon combo decks.

Jin-Gitaxias has never impressed me much. If I want draw-seven effects I've already got Griselbrand. And if I want my opponent's hand empty, I don't want to give them a chance to untap and do stuff before forcing them to discard.

[Cpt-Qc]

That's the thing. You don't really let them cast anything since you just drew 7 (read FoW 1-6 + maybe daze 1-3).

I maintain my opinion, from testing, that Sire is utterly awful for this version of the deck. That and we usually play 3 griselbrand so he's a nice 4th one that can be used even at low life.

[DNSolver]

How do you guys feel about the following few lists?

1) Foil Maindeck / Pack Rat sideboard. Similar to the 3 Foil list that FluffyPingo was playing online.

4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Tidespout
1 Grave Titan / Elesh Norn
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal
3 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Careful Study
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Watery Grave
4 Underground Sea

SB:
4 Pack Rat
3 Echoing Truth
4 Thoughtseize
1 Swamp
3 Faerie Macabre

2) UBw "standard" maindeck, Mentor sideboard

4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout
1 Iona
1 Grave Titan / Elesh Norn
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Careful Study
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Elesh Norn / Grave Titan
3 Echoing Truth
4 Cabal Therapy (plays nicer with Mentor than Thoughtseize)
3 Faerie Macabre

3) Either of the above, but with 4 Show and Tell as a sideboard package.

I'm pretty much locked in on 3 Echoing Truth 3 Faerie Macabre as useful slots, and I think that some hand disruption is good out of the board to bring in over either Lotus Petals or Dazes (grindy matchups like Miracles, Stoneblade and some combo matchups like Storm where Daze isn't great).

I would like input on Mentor sideboard vs Pack Rat sideboard vs Show and Tell sideboard. I spent the day jamming 3 leagues with Deck #1 and went about 50/50, which I deemed okay for making a few mistakes and just learning the deck. Pack Rat won the deciding game vs a Czech player and an Eldrazi player, and in conjunction with Force on Thought-Knot -> Reanimate Thought-Knot beat another Eldrazi player. However, I feel like Mentor would have performed somewhat similarly, perhaps coming down a bit later but killing faster to compensate. Both of those plans I am comparing to Show and Tell, which feels like it dodges most cards being played vs decks like this right now, with the exception of Leovold and Flusterstorm.

[Cpt-Qc]

I like the idea of Pack Rat much more personally. The only problem I have with it is, since I dropped daze for Collective Brutality, I'd be running a very low count of blue after sideboard if I didn't have SnT.

[maCHOOga]

I've been on the packrat plan for a couple weeks, recently shaving down to 2 to add more graveyard hate in the sideboard since lands is huge in the DelMarVa metagame. I've successfully pack ratted two people and came very close at the SCG philly classic of adding a third to the mix. My biggest issue with the rats is you need to devote all your resources over a series of turns to push through the winl, which doesn't leave your mana to disrupt your opponent. I've already had a turn where you have to make a decision, do I thoughtseize/brutality my opponent or make another pack rat? In the same regard, I'm also considering trying gurmag angler in the same slot. The clock is the same amount of time, just frees up mana the subsequent turns.

[DNSolver]

Now have ~12 full leagues played with various versions of this deck. I've been sticking with straight UB with a Pack Rat plan throughout. The only cards I changed around over the course of the 12 leagues:

Sideboard:

-3 Faerie Macabre: Reanimator mirror is rare, and winnable without these.
Collective Brutality: tried it, but cut it
+3 Pithing Needle: currently my sideboard plan vs D+T to beat Karakas - played against too many double plow hands with Grave Titan/Tidespout

Maindeck:

Ponder vs Hapless Researcher: Played around with 4 of either one, now trying a 2/2 split. Researcher drawing Researcher is an inefficient use of mana in Legacy, so 4 felt excessive.

2nd basic Swamp over a blue fetch: Necessary to have 3 basics for Pack Rat

Inkwell Leviathan: Concerned about the D+T matchup, I tried it over Grave Titan in a league, played vs D+T in one match, where the D+T player had Stoneforge all 3 games. One time I Thoughtseized and Force'd it, but both other games I lost through searching up BSkull to buy time and race, usually with Mother of Runes to protect it. Might have just been a bad run, but I cut it afterward.

Overall, Pack Rat has been excellent at turning the tide in Eldrazi and Grixis matchups.

Edit: Overall, sitting at 58.5% win rate the past 8 leagues.

[crowe_1]

^
How often would you say you drew Happy and wished it was Study, or vice versa? I have run Happy in the past but always as extra Studies; never thought of cutting Studies for Happies.

Also I feel some sort of Shroud creature is necessary versus Swords decks. I’ve run Inkwell and Empyrial Archangel and neither has felt fantastic but each has their benefits.

[DNSolver]

Hapless has been replacing Ponders, not Careful Studies. Nothing replaces Careful Studies.

[CabalTherapy]

Played UB Reanimator at the LGS today. Haven't played this deck for over a year I think. Went 3-1 with some grindy and good games.
I was running 2 Wastelands in the board against Depths and other decks' Karakas/Maze. I destroyed 2 DD with it after Needle took care of Thespian's Stage. 2 AD main obviously. Deck feels well positioned but I wasn't satisfied with my answers for DRS.

Did anyone test Wasteland as well?

[Cpt-Qc]

Now have ~12 full leagues played with various versions of this deck. I've been sticking with straight UB with a Pack Rat plan throughout. The only cards I changed around over the course of the 12 leagues:

Sideboard:

-3 Faerie Macabre: Reanimator mirror is rare, and winnable without these.
Collective Brutality: tried it, but cut it
+3 Pithing Needle: currently my sideboard plan vs D+T to beat Karakas - played against too many double plow hands with Grave Titan/Tidespout

Maindeck:

Ponder vs Hapless Researcher: Played around with 4 of either one, now trying a 2/2 split. Researcher drawing Researcher is an inefficient use of mana in Legacy, so 4 felt excessive.

2nd basic Swamp over a blue fetch: Necessary to have 3 basics for Pack Rat

Inkwell Leviathan: Concerned about the D+T matchup, I tried it over Grave Titan in a league, played vs D+T in one match, where the D+T player had Stoneforge all 3 games. One time I Thoughtseized and Force'd it, but both other games I lost through searching up BSkull to buy time and race, usually with Mother of Runes to protect it. Might have just been a bad run, but I cut it afterward.

Overall, Pack Rat has been excellent at turning the tide in Eldrazi and Grixis matchups.

Edit: Overall, sitting at 58.5% win rate the past 8 leagues.

I tried Brutalities in the side too and it wasn't that useful. They're better in the main since you can focus your G1 on the graveyard plan, not fearing drs anymore, and it gets rid of counterspells too (I have 5 discard + 5 forces. Very few decks have that many counterspells in G1). Thus I decided that having Show and Tell mainboard was no longer necessary. I also had to go from petal to dark rit to accommodate for the change but in doing so it opened up more T1 possibilities.

Leviathan or Archetype of Endurance are special. If you have access to needle on Karakas then Griselbrand is always better, but that is not always the case. It might just not be for you but I think one of those two is a must since they're houses in a variety of matchups. I think I only lost once to SFM stalling with Bskull and it required a few other cards to align perfectly. Depending on the texture of your hand, getting these might not be the best idea but a T1 Leviathan is usually GG or serves as an excellent surgical bait.

I don't hate the idea of Pack Rat but it feels really slow and people pack unconditional removal against us so it's a little awkward giving them a target that can't defend itself (you probably can't copy it on the first turn). My board is also packed full atm and I fear I'd have to drop my 2 EE so I'd have no way to kill one of the many 1-2 drops that hinders us. What's your sideboard like?


Played UB Reanimator at the LGS today. Haven't played this deck for over a year I think. Went 3-1 with some grindy and good games.
I was running 2 Wastelands in the board against Depths and other decks' Karakas/Maze. I destroyed 2 DD with it after Needle took care of Thespian's Stage. 2 AD main obviously. Deck feels well positioned but I wasn't satisfied with my answers for DRS.

Did anyone test Wasteland as well?

I never found lands based decks to be too big of a problem. Sure they have nut draws, but so do we. Needle, Etruth and Tidespout usually takes care of Lage. If not I also have the early Inkwell which they can't stop or Blazing Archon to stall the game until you're safe to attack.

[meffeo]

I never found lands based decks to be too big of a problem. Sure they have nut draws, but so do we. Needle, Etruth and Tidespout usually takes care of Lage. If not I also have the early Inkwell which they can't stop or Blazing Archon to stall the game until you're safe to attack.

^ this. Blazing Archon performed really well vs Turbo Depths, since once on the table, they are not able to remove it. Moreover, it's pretty useful against Eldrazi.
I still like reanimation targets from the sideboard, last time I played the deck at the LGS I went 4-0 (straight UB, 1 S&T MB, 2 S&T + Archon + Inkwell in the sb).

[DNSolver]

Cpt-Qc, current sideboard is like this:

4 Pack Rat
4 Thoughtseize
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
1 Elesh Norn

I really disagree on Pack Rat. Against fair blue decks, I have found that Rats can grind through Strixes and Leovolds. Particulary if you are bringing in discard, you can typically have counter backup vs Czech to buy the turn you need. Against Delver, you are usually able to race Delver and out-grow Angler. Young Pyromancer is the big problem, but you would probably FoW it anyway because of how disgusting it is with Cabal Therapy and because Reanimating it is a real threat. Some Pack Rat statistics:

5 match wins attributed to Pack Rat - Grixis Delver, Deadguy, Czech x2, Grixis Pyromancer Control
2 matches lost where Pack Rat didn't get there - BUG Delver where it got stalled by Goyf + DRS at a low life total, Eldrazi where I got outdone by Smashers.

Engineered Explosives is interesting, but I don't think I personally would go for EE in a world of Surgicals, Leylines, and Macabres as the principle hatecards.

[Cpt-Qc]

Alright well I might just try jamming 3 rats in my board, replacing 2xEE and 1xGrave Titan (serves the same purpose of having extra bodies for edicts). I've been on UB only with 3 basics since the top ban anyway so might as well try it.

[crowe_1]

Hapless has been replacing Ponders, not Careful Studies. Nothing replaces Careful Studies.

My reading comprehension gets worse and worse as time goes on apparently.

My Happies eventually got replaced by a singleton Brutality and a couple of Show and Tell main. DRS is too common not to have workarounds maindeck imo and Brutality fills that roll in a synergistic way. I agree it’s often not stellar though. Ponder is too important for constistency to cut them all, but it’s hard to fit a playset AND maintain a decent suite of disruption AND have an adequate number of combo pieces, so I also run two. Might up it to three and move one S&T to the board.

[Cpt-Qc]

My reading comprehension gets worse and worse as time goes on apparently.

My Happies eventually got replaced by a singleton Brutality and a couple of Show and Tell main. DRS is too common not to have workarounds maindeck imo and Brutality fills that roll in a synergistic way. I agree it’s often not stellar though. Ponder is too important for constistency to cut them all, but it’s hard to fit a playset AND maintain a decent suite of disruption AND have an adequate number of combo pieces, so I also run two. Might up it to three and move one S&T to the board.

I find that either 3 ponder or hapless is the right number but they are competing for the same slot.

The reason I like ponder is for longer games, to set up mana and find sideboard pieces. Hapless encourages you to go all-out and if I was going to do that I'd rather play B/R instead.

[Ronald Deuce]

Anybody rocking mainboard Dark Rituals? I've been 3x; mixed results at the locals, but I like the explosivity. Feels better than Daze.

I've always been a proponent of Blazing Archon. That card is excellent against Eldrazi, too. Lately I've mostly been fighting Delvers and D&T and Truenames, so I've opted for Norn, but Archon neutralizes a whole lot of stuff.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So what's the correct fatty to play vs. Miracles? It used to be Aetherling or Keranos, any changes?

I never saw good value in Sire vs. Miracles, but I guess if you had a strategy that worked for you, that's good.

[Cpt-Qc]

Cpt-Qc, current sideboard is like this:

4 Pack Rat
4 Thoughtseize
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
1 Elesh Norn

I really disagree on Pack Rat. Against fair blue decks, I have found that Rats can grind through Strixes and Leovolds. Particulary if you are bringing in discard, you can typically have counter backup vs Czech to buy the turn you need. Against Delver, you are usually able to race Delver and out-grow Angler. Young Pyromancer is the big problem, but you would probably FoW it anyway because of how disgusting it is with Cabal Therapy and because Reanimating it is a real threat. Some Pack Rat statistics:

5 match wins attributed to Pack Rat - Grixis Delver, Deadguy, Czech x2, Grixis Pyromancer Control
2 matches lost where Pack Rat didn't get there - BUG Delver where it got stalled by Goyf + DRS at a low life total, Eldrazi where I got outdone by Smashers.

Engineered Explosives is interesting, but I don't think I personally would go for EE in a world of Surgicals, Leylines, and Macabres as the principle hatecards.

I'm trying out the pack rats board atm and I am actually enjoying it more than I thought I would! ... yeah I have less ways to answer graveyard hate but I just don't care about it so there's that.


So what's the correct fatty to play vs. Miracles? It used to be Aetherling or Keranos, any changes?

I never saw good value in Sire vs. Miracles, but I guess if you had a strategy that worked for you, that's good.

Griselbrand, Iona and Leviathan are your guys. Keranos is still pretty good but they can out-race you with mentor and it's very dead in all other matchups so I'm not sure it's worth it unless your meta is miracles infested.

[Ixbpoqdxl]

Keranos is still pretty good but they can out-race you with mentor and it's very dead in all other matchups.

I wouldn't say all other matchups---Keranos dodges Edict out of Pile and Karakas out of DnT. Those two decks have rather slow clocks so bolting every turn is a reasonable wincon. I like Inkwell the most, but I recently swapped to Keranos and I don't really have enough experience yet to say for certain if it's better or worse.

Also rats rule.

[PirateKing]

So what's the correct fatty to play vs. Miracles? It used to be Aetherling or Keranos, any changes?

I never saw good value in Sire vs. Miracles, but I guess if you had a strategy that worked for you, that's good.

Right now it's probably just Griselbrand. Typical lists don't have Karakas, so their outs are Terminus, Jace bounce and Council's Judgment as slow removal and Swords to Plowshares as fast removal. Other option is to make angels to block.
The challenge against them is to resolve the reanimation, once you're past that hurdle then you'd want the best creature possible. Unless they're a turn from Mentoring out, you can afford to draw enough cards to go again if they do have the removal, or just plain kill them.
Honorable mention is Iona on white. Jace becomes their only out, but they're free to dig away until they find him.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ok, thanks.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[John Rohan]

Can someone explain to me - why so many builds have 4x Griselbrand?

Doesn't that make you really vulnerable to cards like Surgical Extraction? And you can't put out more than one at a time anyway.

With Entomb you can search for him, even if you just have one. I would prefer a wider choice to give me more options - Iona, It that Betrays, Jin-Gitaxias, Sheoldred, Ashen Rider, or Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Sundering Titan, etc

[Rascalyote]

Can someone explain to me - why so many builds have 4x Griselbrand?

Doesn't that make you really vulnerable to cards like Surgical Extraction? And you can't put out more than one at a time anyway.

With Entomb you can search for him, even if you just have one. I would prefer a wider choice to give me more options - Iona, It that Betrays, Jin-Gitaxias, Sheoldred, Ashen Rider, or Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Sundering Titan, etc

Because you want Griselbrand more times than not seeing as how he's the best creature in most situations, and you have more ways to dump creatures from your hand than to entomb for them, so playing the full 4 gives you a higher chance of dumping and reanimating him.

[Cpt-Qc]

I wouldn't say all other matchups---Keranos dodges Edict out of Pile and Karakas out of DnT. Those two decks have rather slow clocks so bolting every turn is a reasonable wincon. I like Inkwell the most, but I recently swapped to Keranos and I don't really have enough experience yet to say for certain if it's better or worse.

Also rats rule.

It's true it's more resilient but what I'm afraid of is the very little damage it does. Also all DnT needs to beat this card is an untapped mom so I doubt it can race.

From your testing so far, were there times where it was better than inkwell when in play? Were there times where it was worse and if so how exactly? I've always been interested but it is so damn slow that I fear it will never get there.


Can someone explain to me - why so many builds have 4x Griselbrand?

Doesn't that make you really vulnerable to cards like Surgical Extraction? And you can't put out more than one at a time anyway.

With Entomb you can search for him, even if you just have one. I would prefer a wider choice to give me more options - Iona, It that Betrays, Jin-Gitaxias, Sheoldred, Ashen Rider, or Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Sundering Titan, etc

I for one don't play 4 because I hate losing 4 targets to surgical. I have a 3/1 split with Jin since he does roughly the same thing but allows us to draw even < 7 life. He's worse most of the time but sometimes he can be better and that's enough for me.

[Ixbpoqdxl]

From your testing so far, were there times where it was better than inkwell when in play?

I've been treating Keranos more like Tidespout rather than a faster wincon---it clears the way for you to set up a bomb by killing problem creatures (but only creatures) and being really hard to interact with from your opponents side. But again, I don't have enough matches with this dude yet to know it's the real deal or not.

I should have been clearer with the first post. I thought they would be similar because of the hard-to-remove aspect of both Inky and Keranos, but they play out differently.

[PirateKing]

The game is so much faster now that I haven't used Keranos in a long time. When Miracles was in full stride as a hard control deck safely Entreating after 1,000 turn we could do well by sticking Keranos and burning them out. Now they can flip out an alarming number of Mentor tokens and win, even if we get a turn to burn the Mentor dead, the token left hit us again and it's over. D&T seem to be a turn faster than I remember, less of a Port, Wasteland, hit you with Thalia for 10 turns and more of a deck that puts a few 3 power creatures into play in one turn and laughs at your math as it beats you to the ground. I'm going through the matchups trying to find one where Keranos is the perfect silver bullet and they're all equally or better served by creatures that also see relevance in other matchups.

[owerbart]

I've been treating Keranos more like Tidespout rather than a faster wincon---it clears the way for you to set up a bomb by killing problem creatures (but only creatures) and being really hard to interact with from your opponents side. But again, I don't have enough matches with this dude yet to know it's the real deal or not.

I should have been clearer with the first post. I thought they would be similar because of the hard-to-remove aspect of both Inky and Keranos, but they play out differently.

I don't know man Keranos has been in my sideboard for a long time now and I still find him extremely important. I think you guys are underrating the fact that there's only one card in the whole (played) format and it's usually boarded out in g2, but also a very important point: He bypasses containment priest. For me this is the tipping point and more than enough to keep him around. I usually board it vs Miracle, Stoneblade and DNT. He tips the scale so much in your favor vs DNT that you can win the games in the long run. I still play 3 decays in my sideboard so keranos becomes an engine to become kind of a control deck, and when they are on tank empty because of him, you can reanimate and execute your gameplan more easily.

[Cpt-Qc]

Anybody rocking mainboard Dark Rituals? I've been 3x; mixed results at the locals, but I like the explosivity. Feels better than Daze.

I am on 3x dark rit main but it's a mistake to compare it to daze. You should compare it to Lotus Petals. Daze prevents opponents from interrupting/executing their plan while dark rit allows you to carry your plan earlier.

Since I wanted to have drs hate mainboard, I switched 3 daze for 3 collective brutality. This also brought the mana cost a little up so I had to replace 3 petals for 3 dark rits and I find I'm in a good spot now. Although I love the extra T1-2 options it allows, I would probably stick to petals if you don't need the extra mana for brutalities.

[Nuke is Good]

Howdy all,

The legacy itch came back. And a recent bonus at work lead me to finish the pimping of my reanimator deck. I haven't played since Eldrazi was still new and running amok. From what I gather the meta is filled with more piles of fair blue crap. This was the list I was running before I took my hiatus for almost like 2 years. Probably going to try bringing this to a team constructed event if the team lets me be the assigned legacy player.


Creatures (9)
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Spells (36)
3 Lotus Petal
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
3 Daze
4 Exhume
2 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
Lands (15)
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard (15)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Grave Titan
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Blazing Archon


From what I'm reading JVP is no longer really popular in reanimator lists and collective brutality is worth consideration to deal with DRS. I pack Teferi's Realm as a catch all way to deal with hate cards worked wonders against MUD and D&T, though I admit committing to double blue was very difficult at times. Pernicious Deed, I've only used once and it served it's job pretty well against Team America but again the Green can be difficult to deal with in decks packing wasteland. I'm probably thinking of putting more discard/collective brutality to deal with increased DRS.

Archetype of Endurance I'm extremely conflicted on, if I drop this card against Miracles or Death and Taxes I feel like I could have just used Empyrial Archangel or Tidespout to deal with threats. If I had two fatties on the field it usually meant that I was going to win. Sire of Insanity has backfired on me so many times, what is leading me to cut this card is an ANT player was able to recover against a T1 sire against me because he dropped U. Sea, a Swamp, then infernal tutored a chain of Vapor. UBx Reanimator just can't barf this card fast enough consistently compared to BRx.

[Cpt-Qc]

You might want to reconsider chain of vapor in favor of Etruth. At some point you're bound to have to bounce marit lage while you have a creature on board and you'll feel really bad.

[KobeBryan]

You might want to reconsider chain of vapor in favor of Etruth. At some point you're bound to have to bounce marit lage while you have a creature on board and you'll feel really bad.

Lands have no way of beating you when you drop Tidesprout tyrant

[Ixbpoqdxl]

I switched 3 daze for 3 collective brutality. This also brought the mana cost a little up so I had to replace 3 petals for 3 dark rits and I find I'm in a good spot now. Although I love the extra T1-2 options it allows, I would probably stick to petals if you don't need the extra mana for brutalities.

What's your blue card count for Force without Daze? I play the full 12 cantrips alongside (3) Daze.

[Cpt-Qc]

Lands have no way of beating you when you drop Tidesprout tyrant

Right, but sometimes your tidespout gets exiled to bojuka bog and you get stuck with something else. You don't always get to pick the best creature and you might be left with something that cannot beat lage. Also it's a bad idea to have all your answer on 1 drops because etruth can also answer chalice on 1 or bounce multiple thorn of amethyst. Diversifying your answers and your threats's cost is a better idea.


What's your blue card count for Force without Daze? I play the full 12 cantrips alongside (3) Daze.

18 blue cards. For games 2-3 it usually stays the same or goes up slightly so I rarely have nothing to pitch.

[Nuke is Good]

Right, but sometimes your tidespout gets exiled to bojuka bog and you get stuck with something else. You don't always get to pick the best creature and you might be left with something that cannot beat lage. Also it's a bad idea to have all your answer on 1 drops because etruth can also answer chalice on 1 or bounce multiple thorn of amethyst. Diversifying your answers and your threats's cost is a better idea.

This was the exact reason I switched from UB and Grixis Reanimator to UGg Reanimator. I had Blazing Archon and Empyrial Archangel on the field. My opponent had a Marit Lage, my Tidespout got extirpated. What made things worse for me was my opponent had Chalices on 1, 2, and 3. It was just a stalemate. Abrupt Decay really helps with that.

Has anyone been able to replicate any success of that 4c Reanimator deck that did pretty well at a Legacy GP a few years back? Maybe it's just me but the mana base felt too disruptable.

[PirateKing]

Has anyone been able to replicate any success of that 4c Reanimator deck that did pretty well at a Legacy GP a few years back? Maybe it's just me but the mana base felt too disruptable.

Which GP? I played 4c Reanimator for a number of years, don't remember anybody going any farther than any other Reanimator.

[DNSolver]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/339783#paper

I believe this is the finish you are looking for.

[RNGesus]

I think its interesting how BR reanimator is now considered the default variant when people talk about legacy reanimator. The UB version has all been pushed out of all major tournaments, I'm not sure if it survives purely in small local metagames.

[Amazingxkcd]

the difference is that BR has the speed to push through a T1 DRS. UB doesn't

[crowe_1]

There’s another theory that the people with Seas would just play Delver.

[PirateKing]

When TinFins what up-and-coming a lot of players shifted to that, and I feel that after that train rolled through a number of them just moved over to BR. Hard to say if that train is still running or if it too will descend back, leaving the rest of us as the default "Reanimator"

Every release we're well positioned to take advantage of whatever big dumb pushed monster they dream up. I doubt anything will ever be as good as Griselbrand, but Archetype of Endurance and Keranos, God of Storms were good tries.

[RNGesus]

When TinFins what up-and-coming a lot of players shifted to that, and I feel that after that train rolled through a number of them just moved over to BR. Hard to say if that train is still running or if it too will descend back, leaving the rest of us as the default "Reanimator"

Every release we're well positioned to take advantage of whatever big dumb pushed monster they dream up. I doubt anything will ever be as good as Griselbrand, but Archetype of Endurance and Keranos, God of Storms were good tries.

That's my main concern with reanimator, that it's an archetype that won't have any more support.
The core tools for reanimator (regardless of whether they are BR or UB) are already pushed, they cannot be made more efficient for what they do. Be it card draw, looting effects, counters, disruption, tutors, rituals... even the last new card, Collective Brutality, was more of a flexible modular card rather than a core tool for the deck.

The only new cards that we can anticipate are the creatures, and even then nothing will probably ever top Griselbrand. We can await silver bullets, but they don't really solve the issue of ever-increasing GY hate.

[bobomb]

That's my main concern with reanimator, that it's an archetype that won't have any more support.


Maybe they'll give us back Mystical Tutor ;)

[owerbart]

I think UB Reanimator is a completely different animal than BR, and you usually can steal matches against people that think otherwise. IMO the way to play with blue is to embrace patience and not be that impulsive. BR is as fragile as glass, while UB can grind out a lot. I don't disagree with the fact that there hasn't been a ton of good cards for Maindeck changes, but there has been a lot of very interesting ideas when we talk about going a little bit slower and sideboarding strategies. Search For Azcanta, for example, is one card I can definitely see being a sideboard staple for the long games.

As a quick update, I'm still on the no mana acceleration plan, and now i've went up to 2 duresses post-sideboard (2 Seize main, 2 Side) meaning I can go up to 6 discard spells post sideboard if i want to, which should feel very nice.

[crowe_1]

^
Unlikely with Miracles in the format unfortunately. Can you imagine playing against eight Terminus?

EDIT: Talking about Mystical Tutor unban. Got ninja’d.

[bobomb]

while UB can grind out a lot.

I don't disagree, however, those grindy match ups usually have some form of incremental creature damage that drops your life total to a point where it gets difficult to use Reanimate and Griselbrand's draw 7 ability...

What's your strategy for those games?

[KobeBryan]

Maybe they'll give us back Mystical Tutor ;)

Mystical tutor will aid every other combo deck. I like it.

[RNGesus]

Regarding UB reanimator "grinding" matches out....

I do see it as possible, but most deck that can grind out wins have a lot more inevitability on their side. Reanimator doesn't have that, unless its a devastating silver bullet.
Just a thought experiment: Let's say a bunch of high cost creatures come out, each of which instantly wins you the game in specific matchups. Reanimator would still not be a powerhouse because of the glaring weakness of the GY.

In order for Reanimator to really become a T1 deck we need a gameplan that is synergistic with the reanimation plan whilst attacking from a different angle other than the GY.

[JackaBo]

In order for Reanimator to really become a T1 deck we need a gameplan that is synergistic with the reanimation plan whilst attacking from a different angle other than the GY.
People have hatebears and flusterstorm to fight spellbased decks, then they have edict and surgical to fight lands. Then they have all those cards versus Reanimator. It's hard to become tier 1 with that kind of post board hate. Playing fattys that can be hard cast in the late game, like grave titan, might be the most resilient plan?

[crowe_1]

“Return a creature to the battlefield from exile” would be interesting.

[PirateKing]

I don't disagree, however, those grindy match ups usually have some form of incremental creature damage that drops your life total to a point where it gets difficult to use Reanimate and Griselbrand's draw 7 ability...

What's your strategy for those games?
The "grind out" nature of UB Reanimator stems out of the math that it's a two card combo that plays ~10 copies of each of the combo cards. So play against certain decks goes like:

"Reanimate targeting Griselbrand"
"Force of Will"
"Okay, Reanimate targeting Griselbrand"
"Flusterstorm, all copies on Reanimate"
"Okay, Exhume?"
"..."

We're not totally immune to blow outs, but in more cases than other combos, a well timed Counterspell doesn't leave us hobbled for the next 6 turns until we die. The classic combo decks lean way into their combo, they're devoted to winning that turn. Often times if we know they're holding onto a Counterspell, drawing a second Reanimate is the same as drawing a Thoughtseize. You just jam and jam and jam until it sticks. Then ideally the thing that sticks is a total murder for the other side. Whatever silver bullet that we need is the one we get. Often times that bullet is GBees, but even if he's not, often times he'll be very helpful in finding the one that is.
So the grind is the sense that not one interruption is enough to stop us. Yeah getting Griselbrand Surgical'd is rough, but we're not dead yet. I've won lots of games in that position. You just keep going, exercise patience as owerbart said, and see what happens. Yes there will be games when they keep you hobbled with DRS all while draining you so by the time you can do anything you're already dead. But a single Stp or Force isn't as crippling as it is to the faster Reanimator decks, so that's what people mean.


“Return a creature to the battlefield from exile” would be interesting.
We've had Pull from Eternity for a while now. Way off color and not good enough to splash, but it is a thing available now for bold brewers.

[crowe_1]

^
Pull puts the card back in the yard, so it wouldn’t help against Leyline or RiP. Even DRS probably just eats the creature again. Creature coming straight to the field from exile dodges those. If too powerful, you could add the life loss clause from Reanimate. Of course, then people might just move to Cage as hate, so...

Either way still not a card that’s likely in the pipeline unfortunately. But I think it would help us a lot if it was.

[RNGesus]

^
Pull puts the card back in the yard, so it wouldn’t help against Leyline or RiP. Even DRS probably just eats the creature again. Creature coming straight to the field from exile dodges those. If too powerful, you could add the life loss clause from Reanimate. Of course, then people might just move to Cage as hate, so...

Either way still not a card that’s likely in the pipeline unfortunately. But I think it would help us a lot if it was.


Yeah, even if WoTC were to print such an effect they'd cost it waay to high. The only things they seem to dare print for Constructed are goodstuff removal, creatures and GY hate. All which fuel the goodstuff turbo Xerox phenomenon we're seeing.

[Amazingxkcd]

if you wanted to, take inspiration from the Bizarro stompy deck & start running mainboard silent gravestones. Yes, this shuts off our reanimate spells save for exhume but it does blanket most of the current meta GY hate. Obviously, you'll have to start running more exhumes (4x), shallow graves, & corpse dance and cut petals to become more grindy but I think its a possible avenue to explore as we're the control player regardless. Note that this is a large shift in how the deck plays out so testing would be needed. I'd also experiment with green splashes so that we can have additional anti-gy hate and run decays (decay own stone -> reanimate for example)

[Begle1]

I keep coming back to an Intuition/ Unburial Rites/ City of Traitors package against slower fair decks and prison decks.

I hate losing to Trinisphere or Chalice on 1, this package gives an out to it in addition to counter magic or Echoing Truth. City also makes it easier to play around Daze or Thalia effects and makes it easier to ramp into Show and Tell.

Intuition for an Unburial Rites, Fatty, Fatty gets you a guaranteed Fatty in the yard and a Unburial Rites in the hand or yard. It's a second Entomb effect or occasionally lets you find triple Force, triple Faerie Macabre, triple Echoing Truth, or triple Exhume/ Reanimate.

Against combo decks where speed and early interaction is everything, like Reanimator mirrors or all-in-combo like Belcher or OopsAllSpells, I take out the 5-card Intuition/ Rites/ City package for more interaction, like Faeries and Thoughtseize.

Against Delver or other permission-heavy control decks I am taking out Force of Wills and Lotus Petals for Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality, Echoing Truth and Show and Tell. My logic being I don't want to 2-1 myself against their wall of counters, and Show and Tell is usually very asymmetric against them.

Against Trinisphere and Chalice decks I want to keep the Force of Wills but play a slower and more resilient game, since I have a few turns to land a threat and they don't usually have means to answer a big fatty. I'll take out the Lotus Petals and Reanimates, maybe Spell Pierce or Elesh Norn/ Iona depending on their threats for Show and Tell, Echoing Truth, Thoughtseize and Ashen Rider.

I don't have a clue what the best strategy against Death and Taxes is. I try to go full in on landing a Griselbrand or Jin-Gitaxias as fast as possible, keeping Lotus Petals, since their only interaction turn 1 or 2 is a Swords to Plowshares and I want to reload my hand. Elesh Norn can wipe their board once but I hate seeing her go farming. Iona is good if they don't have Karakas or Vial yet, which isn't often. I think I want to take out Force of Will and Spell Pierce and put in things that kill creatures and attack hands (Collective Brutality, Massacre, Thoughtseize). Do I want to leave in the Intuition and Unburial Rites? Do I want to put in Show and Tell or Echoing Truth? Containment Priest and Rest in Peace are a brutal tandem. Maybe I want a sideboard Archetype of Endurance?


4 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 City of Traitors

4 Lotus Petal

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
1 Unburial Rites

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Jin-Gitaxias
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ashen Rider
4 Show and Tell
3 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre
2 Collective Brutality

[Begle1]

if you wanted to, take inspiration from the Bizarro stompy deck & start running mainboard silent gravestones. Yes, this shuts off our reanimate spells save for exhume but it does blanket most of the current meta GY hate. Obviously, you'll have to start running more exhumes (4x), shallow graves, & corpse dance and cut petals to become more grindy but I think its a possible avenue to explore as we're the control player regardless. Note that this is a large shift in how the deck plays out so testing would be needed. I'd also experiment with green splashes so that we can have additional anti-gy hate and run decays (decay own stone -> reanimate for example)

I've played Ground Seal in Necrotic Ooze Reanimator, before the Sensei's Top ban; it seems about like the same card as Silent Gravestone but a different part in the curve.

I think that 4x Exhume and 4x Shallow Grave is a fine reanimation package. The Shallow Graves in particular push you towards a fatty that can win the game on the spot, typically either Griselbrand drawing tons of cards (which can Tin-Fins things out or just put you way ahead) or Necrotic Ooze doing the Phyrexian Devourer/ Triskelion thing.

You can have Reanimate in game one and replace it with Gravestone/ Ground Seal in game two in anticipation of Surgical Extraction/ Faerie Macabre/ Extirpate/ etc.

I think the best anti-grave hate is still Show and Tell, it gets around Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Scavenging Grounds and Leyline of the Void as well as the targeted stuff that Gravestone/ Ground Seal answers. It's also a more proactive thing to cast instead of having sideboard slots that just destroy their sideboard slots. What Show and Tell sucks against is Containment Priest and other unfair big-stuff decks like Sneak/Show and OmniTell.

(I think Ooze Reanimator is a better deck against a fair meta due to its ability to dodge gravehate, I've never been happy with its permission suite in a combo or prison-filled meta though.)

[owerbart]

I don't disagree, however, those grindy match ups usually have some form of incremental creature damage that drops your life total to a point where it gets difficult to use Reanimate and Griselbrand's draw 7 ability...

What's your strategy for those games?

Just as pirate king said, as long as you tune in your list and you can dodge the blowouts, reanimator is a two-card combo that unlike sneaky show, you don't need to execute everything in the same turn.

I don't play petals nor dazes which means that as we enter the mid game, I'll have better topdecks and much more resiliency in my cantrips to never stop attacking. I also can go now to 6 discard spells which means that i can play accordingly to the hate they got. IMO one of the things you should always consider is to not be afraid to run decays into creatures to gain time, and even if you wanna, maybe throw a reanimate at them if you think they can be impactful. Lately i've been thinking that there are some very interesting cards that i would like to try in the sideboard:

Strategic Planning
Bomat Courier (in UBr builds)
Search for Azcanta

[Cpt-Qc]

Just as pirate king said, as long as you tune in your list and you can dodge the blowouts, reanimator is a two-card combo that unlike sneaky show, you don't need to execute everything in the same turn.

I don't play petals nor dazes which means that as we enter the mid game, I'll have better topdecks and much more resiliency in my cantrips to never stop attacking. I also can go now to 6 discard spells which means that i can play accordingly to the hate they got. IMO one of the things you should always consider is to not be afraid to run decays into creatures to gain time, and even if you wanna, maybe throw a reanimate at them if you think they can be impactful. Lately i've been thinking that there are some very interesting cards that i would like to try in the sideboard:

Strategic Planning
Bomat Courier (in UBr builds)
Search for Azcanta

I've been fiddling with a acceleration-less build for a while since we need a good reason to not play BR right now. I was thinking 2-3 Azcanta in the maindeck might help smooth games and keep the blue count up. We still want to go off in the early turns if possible but since we lack the T1 potential, we ought to make sure our T2-5s are safer.

If we're gonna postpone our combo by 2-3 turns, maybe we should be playing more hard counters like dispel. The only downside is it only protects our combo and can't stop opponent's but there's so few combo in the meta atm that it might not matter. We'd still be 1-2 turns faster than Sneak, and have lots of disruption for ANT (the two most popular combos). What is certain is 3x brutalities maindeck not only helps with drs/strix, it plays the slower combo role very nicely.

[DNSolver]

Dispel might be a good bet now that Surgical Extraction is the go-to grave hate. However, Search for Azcanta seems two or three turns too slow.

[Cpt-Qc]

You're probably right. I'm trying to find more U cards that shine in turns 2-5 and interact with graveyard but there are not many of those. Jvp and Hapless researcher are canditates once again but I fear they're just going to be lightning rods in the end.

[owerbart]

I've been fiddling with a acceleration-less build for a while since we need a good reason to not play BR right now. I was thinking 2-3 Azcanta in the maindeck might help smooth games and keep the blue count up. We still want to go off in the early turns if possible but since we lack the T1 potential, we ought to make sure our T2-5s are safer.

If we're gonna postpone our combo by 2-3 turns, maybe we should be playing more hard counters like dispel. The only downside is it only protects our combo and can't stop opponent's but there's so few combo in the meta atm that it might not matter. We'd still be 1-2 turns faster than Sneak, and have lots of disruption for ANT (the two most popular combos). What is certain is 3x brutalities maindeck not only helps with drs/strix, it plays the slower combo role very nicely.

Brutality is a card that i could definitely see being run in the side as a way to smooth our delver matchup. Usually G1 you will have enough gas and velocity to take it out, even without mana acceleration. If you want more counters Misdirection has been working great for me, specially because once you get griz out, it can protect it while still generating value, but even as a 5-6th semi-fow has been doing the trick for me. The issue i have with Azcanta is that it might make the game a bit TOO LONG for what we are planning to grind, and now that i think about it UW already feels like a fine matchup. My idea against decks packing pyroblasts (which they will ALWAYS bring in) is to just minimize the number of blue cards i play, so they die with the REBs in hand.

Hapless Researcher is a card that just increases in value after sideboard because it can act as an instant way to ditch a fatty, like in lines with exhume->surgical-> sac reasearcher. Dispel feels like suboptimal since post sideboard they will have better counterspells. We could go into the avenue of playing Flusterstorm, but I've been trying 2 copies of it in the sideboard and i've felt that the card isn't that good. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but it only has been shining in combo matchups which are already good matchups for reanimator.

To round up the idea, not running petals will take out the ability to go off T1, but you will have much more chances of going off t2 or t3 since probabilistically you will get smoother hands.

This is what my sideboard looks like, i'm in a non-acceleration build:

2 Thoughtseize (2 main)
2 Duress
2 Show and Tell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle (i play one main, 61 cards)
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Flusterstorm (This could be exchanged for 2 Collective brutality maybe?)

Other cards that have been going in-an-out of my SB, but all have been proven and i liked them, are:

Blazing Archon: Another non-legendary reanimation target, and it's surprisingly good in more matches that what it may seem
Teferi's Realm: Great against permanent based hate, because you can deploy it proactively and it will start working as soon as it enters. Prison decks feel, with 3 decays and 2 truths, already as very favorable matchups, but if your meta starts to pick up on them again, this is the card that you wanna play, since it will nullify whatever you need.
Massacre: Good vs hatebears, specially if you can bait the containment priest with some discard, you can nuke it afterwards, or against DNT if you need to buy time.



Sorry for the messy writing, I just woke up haha. But yeah, I definitely recommend switching to non-acceleration builds for better grinding :cool:

[Cpt-Qc]

How many lands do you play? I used to play 15 with 3 petals. Since then I've cut the petals but stayed at the same number. I'm now leaning towards 17 but it's hard to cut 2 spells... maybe 16 is enough.

[owerbart]

How many lands do you play? I used to play 15 with 3 petals. Since then I've cut the petals but stayed at the same number. I'm now leaning towards 17 but it's hard to cut 2 spells... maybe 16 is enough.

I play 17 lands: 2 swamps, 1 island, 3 under, 1 trop, 1 bayou, and 9 fetches. It's also important to remark that if you are going for the petal less builds you should definitely cut daze, since the card loses a lot of value after turn 2.

[Damaku]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19187&d=321457&f=LE

My list from Birmingham. Felt ok. I did not see that many Karakas, so I will get Gitaxas into the Main deck again.

Also: i hat deathrite

[jethstriker]

It's also important to remark that if you are going for the petal less builds you should definitely cut daze, since the card loses a lot of value after turn 2.

I thought this was the opposite?

When you're playing petals this is when you should remove daze because petals tend to replace some amount of lands in these builds. Bouncing lands with lower land count can stunt your mana development (not counting petals as mana development since those are one shot resources). Also these builds encourages a more faster execution of the combo that you can afford to exchange some amount of protection for speed.

[PirateKing]

I thought this was the opposite?

When you're playing petals this is when you should remove daze because petals tend to replace some amount of lands in these builds. Bouncing lands with lower land count can stunt your mana development (not counting petals as mana development since those are one shot resources). Also these builds encourages a more faster execution of the combo that you can afford to exchange some amount of protection for speed.

The line of thinking owerbart was demonstrating is that a Petal build is emphasizing speed, and speed necessitates 0-cost counters like Daze. Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Entomb, Reanimate, Daze their counter is a winning play. If you're not playing Lotus Petals, then you're not going fast; a 1 mana tax loses potency after T2, if you're target turn is after T2, it's not a good card for your build.

[owerbart]

The line of thinking owerbart was demonstrating is that a Petal build is emphasizing speed, and speed necessitates 0-cost counters like Daze. Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Entomb, Reanimate, Daze their counter is a winning play. If you're not playing Lotus Petals, then you're not going fast; a 1 mana tax loses potency after T2, if you're target turn is after T2, it's not a good card for your build.

Exactly. When you play no petals you are aiming to exchange speed for better resiliency, and therefore you are planning on going t2-t3 because your griselbrand draws are gonna be smoother. From the moment you are aiming for anything later than t2, daze has to go since you opponent will probably be able to pay for the mana tax making it a dead card. You don't care about bouncing a land since you will operate with two lands at best. On the same note, Petals not only replace some number of lands, making your manabase shaky, but also they replace some other spells from your deck, including reanimation spells and some of your flex spots (like hapless researcher or pithing needle). I've been playing with no petals for a year now and one of the misconceptions I can assure you from all the experience is that you might never go off t1, but you will still have more than enough speed to win G1s vs fair decks and you will still have great MUs against the decks you face with petal/dark ritual versions. Ponders and cantrips become better because they will never show you bad cards like petal or daze, only lands or relevant spells. Also, post sideboard you will have a much better plan because petals and dazes usually suck post board, so it's like you already default-preboarded, while also adding other cards.

when you make a comparison chart, it will look something like this:

no mana acceleration lists:
better cantripping
better manabase
resiliency
t2-t3 speed
better post board games

mana acceleration lists:
t1 speed

from this, it's your choice of what you feel better playing, and what might be better for your meta.

[crowe_1]

^
Do you find the loss of speed to be a detriment versus combo? What matchups would you say become better or worse by taking out Petals and Dazes?

[owerbart]

^
Do you find the loss of speed to be a detriment versus combo? What matchups would you say become better or worse by taking out Petals and Dazes?

This is a good question to ask, since speed is one of the most common advantages reanimator has over other combo archetypes and how naturally predates them. When i switched for a non mana acceleration plan I felt you would lose that edge, but after grinding some games you will realize that speed is still by far on your side. It's only that now, instead of going at 200 km/h, you are going at 180. Speed will still be far in your side. Quick look at the other combos:

Elves: Drs is still the only card that matters, and you are still faster even for show and tell lines.

Sneak and Show: Instead of a full turn faster, now you are half. And even still, the mathup is still heavily in our favor due another factor: they can never go for snt in peace, since you can also cheat one of your big dudes into play, or even an animate dead to reanimate your fatty in the graveyard.

Storm: We are still faster, and much better to recover with a resilient hand like non-petal builds give, since petals become wasted card space after a discard shreds your hand. I would even argue that non petal builds have a much better game post sideboard than petal builds, since those games tend to become an attrition war of discard, where topdecking petals and dazes are just awful.

BR reanimator: They are already faster than us, but much more fragile. You just want to stall them and drag the game out. You still play force, and once you contain their first shots you're favored to win. Post sideboard you'll do great as well since games will also tend to drag for long.

Dredge: Already a good matchup, you just go from extremely favored to heavily favored.

Infect: You are still faster. They will counter your first attempts but you have enough resiliency to get it done via brute force.

On the other side, delver, miracles, czech pile, maverick, stoneblade, stompy decks, you have more or less the same matchups, but with the ability to still win after t3.

One of the interesting qualities of petal less versions is that you can aim for a discard heavy plan post sideboard, since you are now ok trading 1 for 1 resources since all your cards are valuable, but when petal versions you might make a few trades and then draw into nothing. Also ists important to consider that surgical and faerie macabre have become more and more of staples in people sideboards so the idea of going off t1 post sideboard is extremely small

[crowe_1]

Spellseeker:

U2
1/1
ETB: Search library for instant or sorcery card with mana cost two or less.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/luis-scott-vargas/battlebond-preview-card-spellseeker/

Just spoiled from Battlebond. Do we want it? It gets just about every non-fattie card we play (except FoW and Show and Tell). Could help out our consistency quite a bit.

But is it too much mana?

Thoughts?

[Cpt-Qc]

One of the interesting qualities of petal less versions is that you can aim for a discard heavy plan post sideboard, since you are now ok trading 1 for 1 resources since all your cards are valuable, but when petal versions you might make a few trades and then draw into nothing. Also ists important to consider that surgical and faerie macabre have become more and more of staples in people sideboards so the idea of going off t1 post sideboard is extremely small

From my experience playing the petal-less build recently I'd say that's absolutely correct. I switched my sideboard to completely forgo SnT in favor on decays so post board I have 6 removal (3 brutalities, 3 decays) and 6 discard if I need it (3 brutalities / 3 thougtseize). My plan so far has been to transform the deck into a pseudo-reanimator using Pack Rats. Just yesterday I had the perfect example of how powerful it was.

Opponent on Grixis delver on the play:
T1- Opponent duress, takes out my exhume + surgicals it.
T2- I play rat, it gets bolted.
T3- I reanimate rat with force backup in case.
T4- Scoop from opponent cause they can't deal with 2 rats at that point.

Playing this deck in the current slow meta means you need to adapt. Fast discard / counterspell is better vs combo but is not very good in topdeck mode. I play the longer game with the occasional T2-3 fatty to supplement my board.

[sonorous]

Having read the primer, and the last several pages, I'm interested in going with a 'no mana' acceleration list.
What are the core cards for that, or perhaps someone can give me a sample list?
Thank you.

[Cpt-Qc]

This is what I'm testing right now:

Land (17)
1x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs

Enchantment (2)
2x Animate Dead

Creature (11)
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Griselbrand
3x Hapless Researcher
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Sorcery (17)
4x Careful Study
3x Collective Brutality
4x Exhume
2x Ponder
4x Reanimate

Instant (13)
4x Brainstorm
4x Entomb
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Blazing Archon
2x Echoing Truth
1x Keranos, God of Storms
3x Pack Rat
2x Pithing Needle
3x Thoughtseize

[owerbart]

@Cpt-Qc dunno man, I've always liked the show and tell angle, and sometimes it gives you a huge "whoops, i win" type of draws since it dodges a lot of the bonafide removal vs reanimator. I've been playing 2 shows main and 2 side forever and i can't imagine leaving home without them at this point. My list (yeah i play with 61 cards):

4 entomb
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
2 misdirection

3 ponder
4 careful
4 reanimate
4 exhume
2 thoughtseize
2 show and tell

2 animate dead

1 pithing needle

1 hapless researcher
1 grave titan
1 elesh norn
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 tidespout tyrant
3 griselbrand

9 fetches
3 u. Sea
1 trop
1 bayou
2 swamp
1 island

Sb:

1 keranos
2 thoughtseize
2 show and tell
2 duress
2 collective brutality
3 abrupt decay
2 echoing truth
1 pithing needle

[owerbart]

Spellseeker:

U2
1/1
ETB: Search library for instant or sorcery card with mana cost two or less.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/luis-scott-vargas/battlebond-preview-card-spellseeker/

Just spoiled from Battlebond. Do we want it? It gets just about every non-fattie card we play (except FoW and Show and Tell). Could help out our consistency quite a bit.

But is it too much mana?

Thoughts?

I'd rather cast show and tell for that mana. But maybe worth a try

[lugh]

Hello all, longtime lurker. Here's the mainboard that I've had some fun playing locally (to some success):

Threats
4 Griselbrand
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

Selection
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Careful Study

Protection
4 Force of Will
2 Collective Brutality

Mana Denial
4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Daze

Mana
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
10 Fetch

It's a sort of "tempo-combo" list, like how Infect does things. With Canadian Threshold-style tempo, you're just trying to stick one cheap and efficient threat, keeping it relevant by disrupting the opponent's manabase. I was curious to see if that "threat" could be something other than just a dumb beater, so here it's just a cheap reanimation spell. This is especially interesting because it lets us play a tempo game without caring about the opponent's creatures or their removal. Stifle also plays pretty nicely with Entomb: no more choosing between deploying the "threat" and holding up disruption on the first turn. We can also play around DRS to some degree, since we can easily keep decks off their (usually light) green splash.

I've tried various interesting things in the board, the best of which was a transformative board with a white splash to become Esper Mentor.

Still needs tuning of course, let me know what you think.

[Von]

Hello all, longtime lurker. Here's the mainboard that I've had some fun playing locally (to some success):

Threats
4 Griselbrand
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

Selection
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Careful Study

Protection
4 Force of Will
2 Collective Brutality

Mana Denial
4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Daze

Mana
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
10 Fetch

It's a sort of "tempo-combo" list, like how Infect does things. With Canadian Threshold-style tempo, you're just trying to stick one cheap and efficient threat, keeping it relevant by disrupting the opponent's manabase. I was curious to see if that "threat" could be something other than just a dumb beater, so here it's just a cheap reanimation spell. This is especially interesting because it lets us play a tempo game without caring about the opponent's creatures or their removal. Stifle also plays pretty nicely with Entomb: no more choosing between deploying the "threat" and holding up disruption on the first turn. We can also play around DRS to some degree, since we can easily keep decks off their (usually light) green splash.

I've tried various interesting things in the board, the best of which was a transformative board with a white splash to become Esper Mentor.

Still needs tuning of course, let me know what you think.

Hi, I'm actually trying to also experiment with a less all in combo but a more controll-ish build. I would suggest instead of 4 grislebrand, go split with some other creatures like Iona. I would also suggest you drop 4 careful studys as you don't have the creature density to properly take advantage of it.

[owerbart]

I made top 8 of the biggest legacy event of the year here in argentina. I played the petal less version going 1/1 split between collective and blazing archon.

2-0 lands
2-0 4cc
2-1 eldrazi taxes
2-1 aggro loam
1-2 grixis control splashing shaman
2-0 ub reanimator mirror (he played petals)
ID vs colorless eldrazi

Lost on top 8 to grixis control with shaman again.

Overall the deck felt really solid, i liked it, and collective was good vs blue decks, but post sideboard the idea of dumping the fatty to it wont work that great. Just use it as a duress or if you already saw their hand.

[PirateKing]

Congratulations on the finish

[owerbart]

Congratulations on the finish

Thanks man :)

I'll try to get the whole top 8 decklists to tcdecks if anyone is curious.

[sonorous]

Splendid work, owerbart!

You played the 61-card list you mentioned a couple of posts before?

[owerbart]

Thanks sonorous :)

Yeah, exact 61. Sideboard was:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Show and Tell
1 Pithing Needle
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Blazing Archon

[JanoschEausH]

Congratulations owerbart! Would you elaborate on your sideboard plan? I'm kinda new to the deck and am always wondering what to board and what to cut.

[owerbart]

Congratulations owerbart! Would you elaborate on your sideboard plan? I'm kinda new to the deck and am always wondering what to board and what to cut.
Thanks man :)
The sideboard plan varies from deck to deck., but mostly the idea is, going up to 8 discard spells on the sideboard, to fight the permission war outside of the stack. The bonafide GY hate has become surgical extraction, and post sideboard your opponent will have more counters than you if they are bringing flusterstorms and pyroblasts (which you can turn into a bad card), given that your only counters require 2 for 1ing yourself, they arent that good postboard. As noted, if your oppponent is playing a blue deck with a red splash, they are 90% to board in REB/Pyro, so you want to lower your blue quantity postboard, and let them die with those cards in hand. A sideboard plan vs czech pile might be:

-2 misdirection
-2 force of will
-1 tidespout tyrant
-1 show and tell
-1 swamp

+2 duress
+1 collective brutality
+1 abrupt decay
+2 thoughtseize
+1 pithing needle

You board the decay if they are playing shaman. Vs grixis control with no shaman you can forego the decay and the needle. Against blue decks with no red you can go for your full playset of show and tells, since they have no pyroblasts to board in and you can put the pressure on them to find a very definitive answer (flusterstorm, force of will). Vs UW decks, they won't pressure your life total that much but you need to be wary of containment priest and counterbalance, so you can do a similar plan shaving the second needle (2 for karakas and jace are tol much), also shave Elesh Norn, add a second decay and Keranos, who should be your go-to target, since it's mostly an uninteractable clock in a match that should drag long, and it also dodges containment priest. It's also great vs DNT so to ping their guys (add decays to complement) and tear apart their resources until you are good to go.

Vs storm you drop tidespout tyrant and there's an interesting sub game of ETW vs Elesh. If you think they dropped ETW conpletely, you can shave elesh. You can drop also a second land, dropping to 15, and again feel free to board all your SnT playset. Vs sneaky show, you board all the discard, drop the misdirections, and then you try to guess which GY hate they are packing. If they are on leyline, you can bring the truths, if they are on grafdigger, the decays. I use to bring the truths and no decays since it's very common post board for you to thoughtseize away their fatty and then reanimate it.

Vs prison decks, discard is of course a no go, since they will already play their hand out before you have a chance to fire them off. You can shave them and i usually cut ponders, and depending if they are on E. Bridge, i cut a Grizz or Elesh Norn, iona if they are on colorless (also misdirection). Usually I had a 6th card for this matchups which was teferi's realm, but i replaced it with Blazing Archon since it's good for fatty density, it's good both vs eldrazi and vs other decks like elves or dnt, where realm isnt that good.

In conclusion, the one thing that i would never board out are the reanimation spells nor the enablers. I once have seen a storm discussion saying that you should start from the postulation that what you are doing is better than what anyone else is doing, and therefore they are the ones trying to play your game and not the other way around

[bobomb]

Has anyone been testing Spellseeker?

[owerbart]

Has anyone been testing Spellseeker?

i'd rather cast show and tell.

[bobomb]

i'd rather cast show and tell.

Fair point.

[crowe_1]

^
I mean they’re the same mana cost but they’re situationally different. If you have a creature in hand already, then yes Show and Tell. Show and Tell plays a similar role to Careful Study in terms of the slot it occupies.

But if you had one of Entomb, Reanimate, Exhume or Animate Dead in your hand with no creature then Spell Seeker is going to be preferable to find your other half. Could also have utility to find discard if you know they have an answer, or even an Abrupt Decay to handle DRS.

It may be too slow. I am going to try it sometime in the next few weeks in a slower build methinks. And even then, if it does prove useful, would something like Intuition be better?

[owerbart]

Well, our grixis delver matchup is now significantly better. DRS got the axe.

I know the news are fresh but i would strongly advice you people to not take needles out of the sideboard and prepare for a much wider graveyard hate now.

[Neo900]

The grave hate has to increase now. 2 Surgical Extraction and 4 Shaman main was pretty common for most of the decks. Probably 3 Surgical from now + extra cards are necessary.

[Cpt-Qc]

Summer Christmas has arrived at last :eek:

Do we have a discord channel? We might need quick discussions to adjust our lists for the fast changing metagame.

[Amazingxkcd]

Summer Christmas has arrived at last :eek:

Do we have a discord channel? We might need quick discussions to adjust our lists for the fast changing metagame.

Here's the current Reanimator discord (both UB & BR)

https://discord.gg/2SWQzn2

[korstructure]

Here's what Bob Huang had to say in relation to a question about BR vs UB: "No clue... blue has the better sideboard plan I think. I would honestly try a blue version with Chancellors"

I think blue with Chancellors sounds amazing, actually. Has anyone ever tried it before?

[bobomb]

Here's what Bob Huang had to say in relation to a question about BR vs UB: "No clue... blue has the better sideboard plan I think. I would honestly try a blue version with Chancellors"

I think blue with Chancellors sounds amazing, actually. Has anyone ever tried it before?

I go back and forth. Currently running them. I think there are a number of us who have tried it if you scroll through the last 6 or so pages of this thread.

[crowe_1]

Chancellor usually is only useful specifically on turn 1. While our turn one rate is not awful (one in maybe ten games in my experience), we’re more often going off on turn two or three with backup perhaps after a cantrip. As a result, Chancellor tends to be underwhelming for us, and I suspect this will be especially true in a world where we don’t get an advantage out of delaying DRS for a turn. BR is going off turn one 3-4 Games out of ten, so Chancellor is more useful to them. Another bad thing about Chancellor is that before the game starts it screams “Hey! I’m on Reanimator! Leave that land untapped for countermagic!” Which keeps us from doing a Miracles or Delver impression for a couple of turns.

I can only assume this comment from Bob Huong is indicative of a lack of understanding of the archetype on his part, which is odd because it’s a pretty common opinion that Chancellor in UB isn’t great. There are a few other claims in that article that were questionable as well imo but time will tell I suppose.

[owerbart]

Chancellor usually is only useful specifically on turn 1. While our turn one rate is not awful (one in maybe ten games in my experience), we’re more often going off on turn two or three with backup perhaps after a cantrip. As a result, Chancellor tends to be underwhelming for us, and I suspect this will be especially true in a world where we don’t get an advantage out of delaying DRS for a turn. BR is going off turn one 3-4 Games out of ten, so Chancellor is more useful to them. Another bad thing about Chancellor is that before the game starts it screams “Hey! I’m on Reanimator! Leave that land untapped for countermagic!” Which keeps us from doing a Miracles or Delver impression for a couple of turns.

I can only assume this comment from Bob Huong is indicative of a lack of understanding of the archetype on his part, which is odd because it’s a pretty common opinion that Chancellor in UB isn’t great. There are a few other claims in that article that were questionable as well imo but time will tell I suppose.

I agree 110%

[owerbart]

Also now that Shaman isn't around no mana acceleration lists might become even stronger, as now you can sculpt a hand without that f**king dude hosing you for free.

[KobeBryan]

Also now that Shaman isn't around no mana acceleration lists might become even stronger, as now you can sculpt a hand without that f**king dude hosing you for free.

This deck should be back.

At least it will be easier to win game 1s now.

[NegatorITA]

This deck should be back.

At least it will be easier to win game 1s now.

I may get back to reanimator indeed.
Would it still run Ubg though or straight UB?
Decay is still an important sideboard card, but maybe echoing truth is enough?:rolleyes: guess it'll depend on the amount of CB floating around
what's the most recent list looks like?

[owerbart]

This deck should be back.

At least it will be easier to win game 1s now.

It never left.

[crowe_1]

I may get back to reanimator indeed.
Would it still run Ubg though or straight UB?
Decay is still an important sideboard card, but maybe echoing truth is enough?:rolleyes: guess it'll depend on the amount of CB floating around
what's the most recent list looks like?

I have been on straight UB with no issues. I run an Engineered Explosives in the board to hit stuff like Chalice, RiP or Priest. Haven’t played too much vs Miracles in my area though in all fairness.

[TinkerRobot]

I run UB reanimator and sometimes Grixis. I've been playing Chancellor of the Annex for years to good success. I'm pretty sure we want some number of them in the deck, but I'm almost positive we don't want a full playset since they are so bad for us to draw in multiples. Bob Huang is right about Chancellor (in fact I beat him playing Delver in like round 11 of an SCG a few years ago, and was likely because Chancellors make the Delver matchups great) in UBx being the way to go.

[crowe_1]

^
What situations do you find Chancellor being most useful? What do you cut from standard builds to run it?

[Fox]

In a deck that can struggle with blue count, I'm not sure what the point of running Chancellor is. Daze is a better card when it comes to playing two decks and increasing similarity to Delver decks (which allows you to more effectively imitate in games where you've stolen a Delver or YP). There is also a significant difference between fast mana between UBx and B/R; I'm not sure how Chancellor is supposed to perform well in UBx.

[Ephemeron]

I imagine you could kinda trim around the edges of the deck to find room for 3-4 Chancellors if that's what you're into. Given that this is an open meta and you probably genuinely have no idea what to expect, I could see moving Iona and Elesh Norn to the sideboard since Griselbrand drawing into FoW is usually good enough to beat most things game one, and decks like Storm that couldn't beat Iona cant beat Chancellor either (and RUG Delver just auto-loses to any large creature). You could also trim a discard spell and maybe something else like a Daze and suddenly you've got 4 Chancellors. I'm not the biggest fan of Chancellor in this deck because it's so much less turn 1 oriented than BR but it's at least worth a shot.

[crowe_1]

EDIT: @Fox

That has been my assumption and my (admittedly limited) experience as well, but I am open to hearing the other side!

Advantages of Chancellor I can see would be:

- Increased creature density for Careful Study, allowing for more consistent keepable hands
- Once reanimated, helps you combo again much more reliably
- An extra way to keep opponents off Chalice on the draw
- An extra way to stop T1 combo on the draw

Also I suppose it’s not a given that Chancellor would replace Daze. Could run both...but at the expense of something else. Disadvantages of running it would be relative to what’s being cut, but generally:

- Possibly lower U count for FoW, making FoW less consistent
As a reanimation target it is more and more lacklustre the longer the game goes. Also highly vulnerable to Swords, which is expected to see more play. Baleful Strix...stares at it
- Broadcasts what deck you’re playing, removing the “Surprise!” Factor
- Really crappy topdeck (feels especially bad if it’s the first card you draw off the top in a game). More Ponders better in this role?
- Literally any other viable disruption is better past turn one

Any other input or experience?

EDIT 2: @ Ephameron

That is an interesting take as well, removing creatures. Let’s examine that:

Iona beats: Storm, Elves, Burn, High Tide, USUALLY Sneak n Show and Infect.
Of those, Chancellor only beats Storm and is varyingly annoying for the others.

Elesh Norn beats: Elves, Dredge, Infect, Delver
Of those, Chancellor only really tips the scales vs Delver in any appreciable fashion. Even then, they can realistically race.

Grave Titan beats: Edicts, goes wide vs Strix and is a two turn clock. This could be worse than Chancellor based on meta.

Tidespout Tyrant beats: Depths, Lands, random stuff if it gets out early enough. Pitches to FoW! Answers Bridge and Chasm and Maze and other stuff we would lose to.
I would not cut Tidespout unless we had more generic answers to problem permanents, so he would not get cut for Chancellor as-is.

Griselbrand: Generically good. Going from 3 down to 2 might be possible? I would not be the one to take that plunge though.

I do agree that cutting random cards could get you to 3-4 Chancellors if you wanted to, but cost-benefit would depend on the cards. There is some overlap in Elesh Norn and Iona so I could see Iona moving to the board depending on meta.

[marshalltj]

Just a (frustrating) PSA to those playing on MTGO: Keranos + Containment Priest is bugged. Just had my Keranos get exiled under a Priest -.-

[Grand Superior]

With the new banlist update, I have some renewed interest in the UB version of Reanimator. I played it a lot in 2012-2013 but haven't touched it since. I dabbled in BR Reanimator in 2016 but the UB version IMO is the place you want to be for this strategy. Blue's cantrips, countermagic, and Show and Tell look to be better at facing the new format of increased dedicated postboard graveyard hate and no Deathrite Shamans.

I wanted to ask about Lotus Petal specifically. My understanding is that it was first adopted to increase the speed of the deck and to outrace Deathrite Shaman. Now that DRS is no longer a part of the format, is there merit to returning to the GP Atlanta-style decklists with 17-18 lands and zero petals, or is the ability to turn 1 Entomb+Reanimate still important?

[nodahero]

At this point in the meta, I would say to stick to speed Grand Superior.

It is always better to be faster when you aren't sure what is going to happen and with the recent shakeup, I would rather out run the pile of hate that MAY be coming rather than try to fight through all the potential hate. This is especially good when you consider how much of the hate comes at the 2 spot.

[Ephemeron]

So this is the last saved decklist I have for UB Reanimator and will probably be my starting point for the new meta, this is circa shortly after Top got banned, hence the lack of green/Abrupt Decay. There might be too much anti-DRS stuff left over in the board right now but I expect to see an uptick in Containment Priest and Karakas so Push and Needle can stay for now.

1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest

3x Lotus Petal

3x Griselbrand
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Grave Titan

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Careful Study
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Animate Dead
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality

Sideboard:

2x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
2x Fatal Push
2x Pithing Needle
2x Massacre
2x Show and Tell
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Surgical Extraction

[KobeBryan]

So this is the last saved decklist I have for UB Reanimator and will probably be my starting point for the new meta, this is circa shortly after Top got banned, hence the lack of green/Abrupt Decay. There might be too much anti-DRS stuff left over in the board right now but I expect to see an uptick in Containment Priest and Karakas so Push and Needle can stay for now.

1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest

3x Lotus Petal

3x Griselbrand
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Grave Titan

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Careful Study
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Animate Dead
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality

Sideboard:

2x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
2x Fatal Push
2x Pithing Needle
2x Massacre
2x Show and Tell
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Surgical Extraction

You don't really need collective brutality. There was only one real purpose for that card.

[Ephemeron]

You don't really need collective brutality. There was only one real purpose for that card.

Is it wrong that I almost like Brutality more now? I was still in the "testing it out" phase and it always felt a little slow against DRS since discarding is part of the cost, you couldn't get the full value of the card if DRS was active. Now I feel like it's going to be a 2 for 1 (or a 2 for 2 but you know what I mean) a lot more reliably. It might just be too slow but I'm still gonna mess around with it.

[bobomb]

Is it wrong that I almost like Brutality more now? I was still in the "testing it out" phase and it always felt a little slow against DRS since discarding is part of the cost, you couldn't get the full value of the card if DRS was active. Now I feel like it's going to be a 2 for 1 (or a 2 for 2 but you know what I mean) a lot more reliably. It might just be too slow but I'm still gonna mess around with it.

Yeah it's still uncounterable way to bin a fattie. The discard mode is still relevant and so is the -2/-2 creature mode. it can handle a baleful strix that's in your way or containment priest that foiled your previous reanimation attempt.

[owerbart]

Just a (frustrating) PSA to those playing on MTGO: Keranos + Containment Priest is bugged. Just had my Keranos get exiled under a Priest -.-

:(

@Grand Superior I thought that even in a DRS meta it was better to stick to zero petals, and now that we will probably see a rise in surgical+faerie macabre+LoTV, i feel like we will want even more to be on the grindy side instead of the speedy one. The one main argument for wanting to be fast these years was trying to push through DRS before it can untap and activate. Now with the card gone, I think makes much more sense to try to play a slower game where your graveyard will be less controlled than before. Post sideboard, with all the hate, trying to go off t1 will lead you to more headaches than wins.

[owerbart]

Yeah it's still uncounterable way to bin a fattie. The discard mode is still relevant and so is the -2/-2 creature mode. it can handle a baleful strix that's in your way or containment priest that foiled your previous reanimation attempt.

I agree. Collective will probably be better now that the 1 mana planeswalker is gone.

[JanoschEausH]

If our game gets slower, wouldn't Spellseeker be really good? It can also grab Brutality for example.

[quadich]

So i have been thinking of adding mire discard spells to the deck. I feel that this would help against cards like surgical/faerie/hatebears and makes grinding a lot more appealing. Not sure what i would be cutting but maybe some number of petals.

[DoorDie]

If our game gets slower, wouldn't Spellseeker be really good? It can also grab Brutality for example.

If the meta were that slow, Buried Alive would be more efficient. Maybe at 1U it'd be a consideration, but that's probably too close to Mystical territory to ever happen.

[Megadeus]

Didn't some of you used to play Jace, Vryns Prodigy? Any reason he can't be decent again?

[Jaytron]

I agree. Collective will probably be better now that the 1 mana planeswalker is gone.

Do you have an updated list that you're playing now that DRS is gone? The idea of no petal is pretty intriguing to me!

Arcane Artisan has been popping up in Show and Tell lists. If we're playing a more grindy game and there's a good amount of GY hate out there, does this card make sense? It protects targets from GY hate, and plays around a lot of counter magic that is brought in against us.

It's slow, but if the game is slowing, it may be correct. Show and Tell players are testing it out to some success. Thought it would be worth a try in UB also

[Fox]

Arcane Artisan has been popping up in Show and Tell lists. If we're playing a more grindy game and there's a good amount of GY hate out there, does this card make sense? It protects targets from GY hate, and plays around a lot of counter magic that is brought in against us.

SnT decks decks can only win by cheating out their wincon (or cheat Omni into cheat a wincon), which is why Artisan is much better at winning the same way except with the word token instead of card. UBx has a much easier time progressing its gameplan while answering problems (Coll. Brut.) and/or playing the opponent's deck. Using our own SnT is more reliable in the sense that it's able to push the gameplan forward in a way that asks different questions. If you wanted to use a 3cmc creature to play through different hate, I'd suggest Volrath's Shapeshifter or more realistically Skill Borrower. I don't think Skill Borrower is particularly good, but there really isn't any hate piece that is going to stop cantripping Grisel to top of deck and securing a draw 7/14 without any gap in priority between creature on board and activating grisel-draw.

[Ephemeron]

Didn't some of you used to play Jace, Vryns Prodigy? Any reason he can't be decent again?

JVP is the mutt's nutts. I played him before and thought he was good, and am currently playing 2 in the board and he's still good. Sucks that Grafdigger's Cage also neuters his best PW ability but such is life.

[RNGesus]

I feel like we really need to find a way to diversify our threats. So far other decks have multiple synergistic avenues of attack (mana denial, hand attack, direct damage spells). Even SnS has the ability to go the Omniscience route instead of getting out a big beater. So far reanimator has been stuck on getting a creature out, which is easily enough answered nowadays. The days of a big "game-ending" monster being enough to close out the game are over (and with BR reanimator being able to put a creature out so quickly this will mean that a creature "game-ending" enough for UB would be OP with BR).

I'm not sure what attack plan will synergize with reanimator, given the deck slots we have devoted to jumping through the GY hoop. SnS just has one simple enabler (S&T) and thus can easily diversify their attack plan to include powerful enchantments/artifacts should they get printed in the future. Just imagine if we had a super-buffed version of Keranos that dealt 6 damage instead of 3.

[owerbart]

Do you have an updated list that you're playing now that DRS is gone? The idea of no petal is pretty intriguing to me!

Sup jaytron i haven't settled on a list yet and that, combined with the fact that everybody is still going full on paranoia with the gravehate, made me take the choice to let things cool off, let grizz & co. have their deserved rest for a few weeks while the gy purge cools off. I've been thinking that probably i would play the exact 76 . DNT has risen up again so the MD needle is still needed. Maybe collective brutality can find its way into MD, and dropping seize to the sideboard, since the main allure of seize was to snipe a shaman t1.

RNGesus i feel you are understimating the power of a griz in a UB shell. The biggest difference veing that in BR reanimator griz is vulnerable, while in UB he can just draw cards to find a FOW and save himself. The biggest reasoning, at least for me, to go for a petal-less build was the train of thought that griselbrand is gonna be light out either t1 or t5. On a petal less build griselbrand D7s are a bit better since you dont have dead cards like daze or petals, griz only draws you gas.

A card that now without drs makes me really curious to give another rodeo is Search for Azcanta, since it functions as an enabler and a way to outdraw miracles post board.