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DoorDie
09-12-2016, 03:26 AM
Another question why Putrid Imp over Hapless Researcher ? Isn't having more blue cards to pitch to Force of Will better?

There is a minimum density you need to run Force, and beyond that density it's my opinion the argument "it pitches to Force" loses relevance. I've seen many competitive Vintage and some Legacy decks run as low as 15 blue cards main total (including Force itself), and 1/4 gives you good odds of having the pitch card in an opener (almost 82%).

There are other tradeoffs for the card choice obviously, but I'll let Cpt-Qc speak to that.

Cpt-Qc
09-12-2016, 11:29 AM
Another question why Putrid Imp over Hapless Researcher ? Isn't having more blue cards to pitch to Force of Will better?

I do not adhere to the "it pitches to force" argument that much. As said above, it's greatly overestimated.
Even then, I have more than enough to hit the magic number (18 including forces).

Also I do like the fact that imp allow me to beat DRS much easier (by discarding twice) and that I can function solely on black if needed.

Imps also make mean attackers with Elesh Norn on the field (4/4 flying) which negates her downside of being slow and letting the opponent find an answer.

The imps, ponders and misdirection are really all flex slots so you can adjust how you prefer. EDIT: Also forgot about it but Show and Tell is a flex.
It's true hapless lets you filter, but you only have 1 shot at it really and it's gone. It does not cantrip as some people say because you still end up at -1.

PowerCreep
09-13-2016, 09:07 AM
...

Also I do like the fact that imp allow me to beat DRS much easier (by discarding twice) and that I can function solely on black if needed.

Imps also make mean attackers with Elesh Norn on the field (4/4 flying) which negates her downside of being slow and letting the opponent find an answer.
...



I'm intrigued by Imp, TBH - but I think you may need to re-read the card. Pitching a card gives it flying, and Threshold (+1/+1) can only be applied once and it removes Imp's ability to block. Am I mis-interpreting what you mean by "beat DRS much easier (by discarding twice)"? With a discard and threshold, Imp would be 2/2 flying that can't block.

Now the combo w/ Elesh, I'm down w/ that!

CptHaddock
09-13-2016, 09:15 AM
I'm intrigued by Imp, TBH - but I think you may need to re-read the card. Pitching a card gives it flying, and Threshold (+1/+1) can only be applied once and it removes Imp's ability to block. Am I mis-interpreting what you mean by "beat DRS much easier (by discarding twice)"? With a discard and threshold, Imp would be 2/2 flying that can't block.

Now the combo w/ Elesh, I'm down w/ that!

I think the idea is that if you have multiple creatures stuck in your hand you can play around a DRS by baiting them into eating the 1st creature discarded and then discarding the 2nd creature and reanimating it.

Cpt-Qc
09-13-2016, 09:37 AM
I think the idea is that if you have multiple creatures stuck in your hand you can play around a DRS by baiting them into eating the 1st creature discarded and then discarding the 2nd creature and reanimating it.

Exactly. And it can still block as long as you don't have Threshold

The card has drawbacks of course but as I said the deck has a lot of flex slots so it's all a matter of preference and/or meta.

Gabrielpadilha
09-13-2016, 03:37 PM
Hey, guys! Another Griselbrand lover here from Brazil. This is my first post here in The Source and English is not my native language, so I'm sorry for any mistakes.
I'm here to tell you about the last tournament that I went with my Reanimator deck - the first one after I finally "completed" it. And I say "completed" because I don't have any ABUR Duals (Underground Sea here costs about 2 times our monthly minimum wage), but a friend lent me two Underground Seas and one Tropical Island for the tournament.

Well, enough of bla bla bla! Here's my list (a pretty stock one):


//Lands
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave

//Spells
1 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
3 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize

//Creatures
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 1 Sire of Insanity
SB: 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind


TOURNAMENT REPORT:

First Match - Bant 0-1

On the play, I open with one land, one entomb and exhume. To combo off on turn 2, all I needed was another land, a lotus petal or reanimate. I play fetch and pass. He plays fetch, tropical, shaman. I entomb between turns and draw a griselbrand. Oops. Pass the turn, he deploys another shaman and the reanimate plan was off. Tried to achieve 6 lands to play grave titan, but it gets countered. Game 2, I open with the turn-2-combo assembled in my hand. Fetch, pass. He goes fetch, land, Grafdigger's cage. I never see one abrupt decay the entire game, tried the Grave titan plan again and it gets countered again.

Second Match - BUG Reanimator 1-1

On the play again, opened a beautiful hand, but had no lands and only one petal. Mulligan to terrible 6, with lots of cantrips and no combo pieces, but tried it anyway. My opponent throws Iona on his grave but does not bring her to the BF. I draw reanimate, he forces, I force and steal her, naming black. 3 turns later, GG. Game 2, I bring my griselbrand early. Next turn, he brings his. I attack, he does not block, I send both of em to our hands with echoing truths, and activate grisel to draw a ton of cards in response. He didn't have the life to activate his, and brainstorms 3 times trying to find a force, but fails. Eventually I brought his inkwell leviathan to finish the game.

Third Match - Eldrazi 2-1

Tough match. Game 1 he goes Eldrazi temple, Mimic and ask me if I want to force it. I say "NOP TKS". I play fetch and say go. He plays thought-knot seer and asks me to see my hand. I break the fetch, entomb a grisel and daze it. Next turn I play undeground sea again, go. He plays a land, and Reality Smasher. I daze it again. He complains a little and pass. I play land, animate dead on grisel. He does nothing. I draw a ton, reanimate a grave titan and he scoops. Game two he starts with a chalice for one, which I force. He then plays Karakas and laughs. I play Pithing Needle naming Karakas and in the next turn, Grisel's back to play.

Fourth Match - Merfolk 3-1

This guy had some bad luck and played by my side in the first match, so I knew what he was piloting. Game 1 I start on the play (the dice were really kind to me that day) and on the second turn I had one Iona for blue. GG. The second match he starts fast with Vial. I cheat a grisel to play, he sends it to my hand back with Harbinger (uncounterable via aether vial). He has 3 fishes in play, game looks lost, but I manage to reanimate one Elesh. Game drags on a little, but superGrisel comes to save the day again.

Fifth Match - BUG Delver 4-1

At this point, I discovered that the tournament didn't have a top 8 cut, so we had to play the last round to define the prizes. Game 1 he starts real hard, going Delver-Transform-Delver. I Mulliganed and found a hand with Iona, two reanimate spells and lands. He Hymm To Tourach's me turn 3, sending Iona and one of the spells to the grave. "Oops.. It's possible that I helped you" he says. Next turn, Iona for black. The game drags as he was buying only black cards (he even tried to play a Gurmag, forgetting that Iona was in play) and I was drawing only reanimate spells. He tries to play goyf, I force. I reanimate his goyf and beat him with his own toy to the game. Game 2 I can't recall perfectly, because I was too nervous (facing the fact that I could win the game and place really well). Grisel did its job drawing cards, gaining life and beating the hell out of everyone. Game, set and match!


FINAL SCORE:
I only lost the first round, and my opponent went 5-0 after that. So my percentage was really high and I managed to finish second in the tournament, winning a beautiful Blood Moon. Great!


THOUGHTS:
I guess I was kind of lucky. I managed to scape from all the death and taxes and miracles, won all the dice rolls and drew everything I needed. But here are some insights:

1 - If you can't afford ABUR Duals playsets, one option is to buy only one or two of the ones that you need. I've tried the deck with shocks and they usually work, but sometimes that 2 points of life are the difference of activating griselbrand or not. But with 2 seas, you almost never have to bring those shocks untapped.

2 - Pithing needle and abrupt decay came in almost every games. Ponder and petal usually went out.

3 - I had doubts about grave titan, but the ETB is really worth it.

4 - I really need something to replace Sphinx in the sideboard. Suggestions?

5 - Tidespoust Tyrant always seems kinda slow. I have to reanimate it and play another spell, and that seems hard to do in the same turn.


METAGAME:
1º - Felipe Duarte (Bant)
2º - Gabriel Padilha (Reanimator)
3º - Victor Cabral (Death and taxes)
4º - Mauro Edi (Grixis Delver)
5º - Hugo Vasconcelos (Miracles)
6º - Julio Junior (Merfolks)
7º - Marcelo Brigido (BUG Delver)
8º - Andre Albuquerque (Affinity)
Jansen Chiganer (UR Delver)
Carlos Galhardo (UR Delver)
Patrick Andrade (Reanimator)
Eduardo Hallak (4 Color Delver)
Felipe Silva (Miracles)
Paulo Silva (Burn)
Tito Costa (Eldrazi)
Breno Correa (Miracles)
Anderson Silva (Merfolks)
Felipe Alheiro (Eldrazi)
Rodrigo Sousa (UW Stoneblade)
Max Minato (Shardless BUG)
Guilherme Tonini (Burn)
Tarcisio Nunes (Burn)
Pablo Iacovazzo (Miracles)
Dyagnes Cohen (Death and Taxes)
Rafael Simonelli (Esper Mentor)


I'd love to hear some insights and your opinions!
Thank you and I'm sorry for the long post.

maharis
09-13-2016, 05:50 PM
Hi guys, trying the deck out this week. Last night I tested vs. D&T and won by turboing out Elesh game 1 and Iona game 2 while fading Karakas. But then I played against shardless bug with DRS and Grafdiggers Cage post board. Am I supposed to keep in counters here? I boarded in 2 decay, 2 duress, a needle, couple collective Bs... But not sure if I should've just kept my counters in. Maybe cut daze for spell pierce? Is this a matchup where we really just want to jam S&T?


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kabal
09-13-2016, 06:05 PM
Hi guys, trying the deck out this week. Last night I tested vs. D&T and won by turboing out Elesh game 1 and Iona game 2 while fading Karakas. But then I played against shardless bug with DRS and Grafdiggers Cage post board. Am I supposed to keep in counters here? I boarded in 2 decay, 2 duress, a needle, couple collective Bs... But not sure if I should've just kept my counters in. Maybe cut daze for spell pierce? Is this a matchup where we really just want to jam S&T?

Here is one guys opinion on SB'ing (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator&p=898377&viewfull=1#post898377)

maharis
09-14-2016, 11:40 AM
thank you, that is helpful.

Went 3-0 last night with this list, but it's still a little bit of a mess. Beat Eldrazi, UR Delver, and Lands.

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb
3 Daze
3 Ponder
1 Collective Brutality
1 Animate Dead

4 Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou

2 Duress
2 Collective Brutality
2 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Massacre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre

kabal
09-14-2016, 12:01 PM
For the people playing Animate Dead, how do you like it? Do you find it gets boarded out if they are playing Abrupt Decay? Do you assume they will board out decay being they know what you are playing?

Secretly.A.Bee
09-14-2016, 01:39 PM
It's useful for a handful of scenarios, most notably with Tidespout Tyrant being able to protect itself via an instant in response to Decay/StP/Terminus, bouncing the Enchantment and letting the Tyrant return to the yard, countering the spell due to checks the game makes (or rendering the non-targetting spell useless, i.e. Terminus). Then, after the stack resolves or during your next main phase, re-deploy your Animate Dead and continue winning.

Also gets through a Cursecatcher, as well as not being a legal target for Flusterstorm.

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jattra
09-14-2016, 04:02 PM
It's useful for a handful of scenarios, most notably with Tidespout Tyrant being able to protect itself via an instant in response to Decay/StP/Terminus, bouncing the Enchantment and letting the Tyrant return to the yard, countering the spell due to checks the game makes (or rendering the non-targetting spell useless, i.e. Terminus). Then, after the stack resolves or during your next main phase, re-deploy your Animate Dead and continue winning.

Also gets through a Cursecatcher, as well as not being a legal target for Flusterstorm.

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I agree with all of that and want to add that 8 reanimation spells is not enough anyway.

Cpt-Qc
09-14-2016, 05:19 PM
I agree with all of that and want to add that 8 reanimation spells is not enough anyway.

I agree that 8 is not enough.

I used to play the 8 package + 2 animate dead but I really hated giving abrupt decay a good target G1 so I switched to 2 SnT.

I am slower against a few matchups but I can actually give DRS decks a fight now (plenty in my meta).


For the people playing Animate Dead, how do you like it? Do you find it gets boarded out if they are playing Abrupt Decay? Do you assume they will board out decay being they know what you are playing?

Decay is almost always boarded out against us. Sometimes they leave some in if they're out of stuff to bring in but they are generally better served by boarding targeted discard, counters and permanent hate (RIP, Cage, etc).

Secretly.A.Bee
09-14-2016, 06:24 PM
They should only bring in discard against reanimator if they are on the play. Reanimator is too fast for things like Thoughtseize on the draw. It's not absolutely incorrect, but a turn 1 DRS is probably the more correct play, and will be relevant longer. Discard loses a lot of value after a reanimator player's second turn.

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DoorDie
09-15-2016, 12:10 AM
Totally agree Bee.

Animate Dead vs Decay or any one particular answer is too narrow an analysis to matter, I think. And oh no, the creature goes to my graveyard if Animate Dead gets destroyed! Whatever shall I do? :tongue:

People need to appreciate the natural speed and redundancy of our combo. Play those extra copies, up to 10 or 11 total reanimation spells. We "have it" so much more often than other combos, it's insane.

CovenantElite30
09-15-2016, 09:43 PM
Question for the forum, What makes the UB version of reanimator better then the RB version?

Which version do you think is better for the current meta?

What are the pros and cons from one to the other?

I like the idea of playing the blue splash but the idea of having bloodmoon out of the sideboard seems way to tempting.

It's basically like a prism style reanimator deck.

Cpt-Qc
09-15-2016, 10:16 PM
Blue adds consistency and helps with boarded games.

If players in your meta have no GY hate (they would be crazy not to), you could probably do better with BR (1 turn faster most of the time).

If on the other hand people in your meta are not so narrow-minded as to have no GY hate in Legacy, UB will probably do better.
You can find missing pieces and sideboard cards easier and rebuild your hand if you whiffed.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-15-2016, 10:53 PM
Stryfo and others have a 4c build they use. Red is for Izzet Charm, mostly, but can have uses out of the board. I like it a bunch when it's not being temperamental.

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alaska
09-16-2016, 02:59 AM
Hey, guys! Another Griselbrand lover here from Brazil. This is my first post here in The Source and English is not my native language, so I'm sorry for any mistakes.
I'm here to tell you about the last tournament that I went with my Reanimator deck - the first one after I finally "completed" it. And I say "completed" because I don't have any ABUR Duals (Underground Sea here costs about 2 times our monthly minimum wage), but a friend lent me two Underground Seas and one Tropical Island for the tournament.

Well, enough of bla bla bla! Here's my list (a pretty stock one):




TOURNAMENT REPORT:

First Match - Bant 0-1

On the play, I open with one land, one entomb and exhume. To combo off on turn 2, all I needed was another land, a lotus petal or reanimate. I play fetch and pass. He plays fetch, tropical, shaman. I entomb between turns and draw a griselbrand. Oops. Pass the turn, he deploys another shaman and the reanimate plan was off. Tried to achieve 6 lands to play grave titan, but it gets countered. Game 2, I open with the turn-2-combo assembled in my hand. Fetch, pass. He goes fetch, land, Grafdigger's cage. I never see one abrupt decay the entire game, tried the Grave titan plan again and it gets countered again.

Second Match - BUG Reanimator 1-1

On the play again, opened a beautiful hand, but had no lands and only one petal. Mulligan to terrible 6, with lots of cantrips and no combo pieces, but tried it anyway. My opponent throws Iona on his grave but does not bring her to the BF. I draw reanimate, he forces, I force and steal her, naming black. 3 turns later, GG. Game 2, I bring my griselbrand early. Next turn, he brings his. I attack, he does not block, I send both of em to our hands with echoing truths, and activate grisel to draw a ton of cards in response. He didn't have the life to activate his, and brainstorms 3 times trying to find a force, but fails. Eventually I brought his inkwell leviathan to finish the game.

Third Match - Eldrazi 2-1

Tough match. Game 1 he goes Eldrazi temple, Mimic and ask me if I want to force it. I say "NOP TKS". I play fetch and say go. He plays thought-knot seer and asks me to see my hand. I break the fetch, entomb a grisel and daze it. Next turn I play undeground sea again, go. He plays a land, and Reality Smasher. I daze it again. He complains a little and pass. I play land, animate dead on grisel. He does nothing. I draw a ton, reanimate a grave titan and he scoops. Game two he starts with a chalice for one, which I force. He then plays Karakas and laughs. I play Pithing Needle naming Karakas and in the next turn, Grisel's back to play.

Fourth Match - Merfolk 3-1

This guy had some bad luck and played by my side in the first match, so I knew what he was piloting. Game 1 I start on the play (the dice were really kind to me that day) and on the second turn I had one Iona for blue. GG. The second match he starts fast with Vial. I cheat a grisel to play, he sends it to my hand back with Harbinger (uncounterable via aether vial). He has 3 fishes in play, game looks lost, but I manage to reanimate one Elesh. Game drags on a little, but superGrisel comes to save the day again.

Fifth Match - BUG Delver 4-1

At this point, I discovered that the tournament didn't have a top 8 cut, so we had to play the last round to define the prizes. Game 1 he starts real hard, going Delver-Transform-Delver. I Mulliganed and found a hand with Iona, two reanimate spells and lands. He Hymm To Tourach's me turn 3, sending Iona and one of the spells to the grave. "Oops.. It's possible that I helped you" he says. Next turn, Iona for black. The game drags as he was buying only black cards (he even tried to play a Gurmag, forgetting that Iona was in play) and I was drawing only reanimate spells. He tries to play goyf, I force. I reanimate his goyf and beat him with his own toy to the game. Game 2 I can't recall perfectly, because I was too nervous (facing the fact that I could win the game and place really well). Grisel did its job drawing cards, gaining life and beating the hell out of everyone. Game, set and match!


FINAL SCORE:
I only lost the first round, and my opponent went 5-0 after that. So my percentage was really high and I managed to finish second in the tournament, winning a beautiful Blood Moon. Great!


THOUGHTS:
I guess I was kind of lucky. I managed to scape from all the death and taxes and miracles, won all the dice rolls and drew everything I needed. But here are some insights:

1 - If you can't afford ABUR Duals playsets, one option is to buy only one or two of the ones that you need. I've tried the deck with shocks and they usually work, but sometimes that 2 points of life are the difference of activating griselbrand or not. But with 2 seas, you almost never have to bring those shocks untapped.

2 - Pithing needle and abrupt decay came in almost every games. Ponder and petal usually went out.

3 - I had doubts about grave titan, but the ETB is really worth it.

4 - I really need something to replace Sphinx in the sideboard. Suggestions?

5 - Tidespoust Tyrant always seems kinda slow. I have to reanimate it and play another spell, and that seems hard to do in the same turn.


METAGAME:
1º - Felipe Duarte (Bant)
2º - Gabriel Padilha (Reanimator)
3º - Victor Cabral (Death and taxes)
4º - Mauro Edi (Grixis Delver)
5º - Hugo Vasconcelos (Miracles)
6º - Julio Junior (Merfolks)
7º - Marcelo Brigido (BUG Delver)
8º - Andre Albuquerque (Affinity)
Jansen Chiganer (UR Delver)
Carlos Galhardo (UR Delver)
Patrick Andrade (Reanimator)
Eduardo Hallak (4 Color Delver)
Felipe Silva (Miracles)
Paulo Silva (Burn)
Tito Costa (Eldrazi)
Breno Correa (Miracles)
Anderson Silva (Merfolks)
Felipe Alheiro (Eldrazi)
Rodrigo Sousa (UW Stoneblade)
Max Minato (Shardless BUG)
Guilherme Tonini (Burn)
Tarcisio Nunes (Burn)
Pablo Iacovazzo (Miracles)
Dyagnes Cohen (Death and Taxes)
Rafael Simonelli (Esper Mentor)


I'd love to hear some insights and your opinions!
Thank you and I'm sorry for the long post.

Good writeup and congratulations on a good finish.

How is the meta in your area? I am always curious who metas vary in different regions.

DoorDie
09-17-2016, 03:51 AM
Question for the forum, What makes the UB version of reanimator better then the RB version?

Which version do you think is better for the current meta?

What are the pros and cons from one to the other?


I don't really think it can be reasonably argued that U/B isn't better, the cantrip engine backed by Force protection that permeates Legacy is generally the most skill-rewarding option. Badlands costing 1/4 of what Underground Sea does isn't arbitrary.

That said, Legacy is a skill-rewarding format with most any playable deck. If you love it then learn it and play it. You can do some pretty amazing stuff even with something godawful like Belcher.

If we're talking meta, pure U/B is kind of overshadowed by splashes for Abrupt Decay and/or Izzet Charm. I believe it's still pretty neck-and-neck in the hands of a skilled pilot, but versatile removal really does shore up the major weakness of the deck: hatebears.

Gabrielpadilha
09-17-2016, 11:06 PM
Good writeup and congratulations on a good finish.

How is the meta in your area? I am always curious who metas vary in different regions.

Thanks, bro!
The meta changes a lot. We have only one legacy league here in Rio, and every top8 looks different from the others. I was expecting a lot more D&T and Miracles, but people change decks frequently. Overall, we have a very health meta.


Two things about the other discussions:

I love 1-main Animate dead. Another reanimation spell that does not cost life is really REALLY helpful, specially considering that this could mean activating grisebrand one more time. Yeah, it can be abrupted, but i think it's totally worth it.

I was considering buying the red cards from the BR version so I could change from time to time. What are the main differences between the BUg version and the BR version? The play style changes a lot or sticking to the basic plan works?

Thank you!

DNSolver
09-18-2016, 12:04 AM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30840-Primer-BRx-Griselbrand-Reanimator

This is the link you're looking for if you want to know more about BR Reanimator.

kabal
09-19-2016, 10:10 PM
So... Lotus Pedal. What is the general consensus and why for playing 3 verse 4 petals? Scanning through the builds on TC Decks from last 2 years, it seems that there isn't a lot rhyme or reason on why. Main deck or sideboard doesn't even seem to play a factor. Does it just boil down to personal preference?

Secretly.A.Bee
09-20-2016, 12:37 AM
Well, you want one on turn 1, turn 2 is meh, anything after that, it's a dead draw. The only other time you are okay with the second one is when you are drawing in increments of 7, or they have a Blood Moon out and you have a basic swamp on the battlefield with an Abrupt Decay in hand. 3 is the right number. Test it if you feel compelled to do so, but I am certain 3x Lotus Petal is right, if for no other reason than space.

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kabal
09-20-2016, 07:42 AM
Well, you want one on turn 1, turn 2 is meh, anything after that, it's a dead draw. The only other time you are okay with the second one is when you are drawing in increments of 7, or they have a Blood Moon out and you have a basic swamp on the battlefield with an Abrupt Decay in hand. 3 is the right number. Test it if you feel compelled to do so, but I am certain 3x Lotus Petal is right, if for no other reason than space.

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Dunno there ... based on your logic, seems like you would want four.

Also, being that Daze is heavily played, having petal early let you play around it.

Ephemeron
09-20-2016, 11:04 AM
Someone good at crunching numbers and probability would have to back this up, but I remember listening to a podcast with Patrick Chapin a year or 2 ago, and he was talking about deckbuilding, and I remember him saying that 3 copies of a card is the ideal number for a deck when you want to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand while also minimizing the chances of drawing a second one later in the game. That fits perfectly for Lotus Petal. The first one in your opening hand is tremendous, while every petal you draw afterwards is pretty lousy generally. So with that in mind, I do think 3 is the proper number for the maindeck.

DoorDie
09-21-2016, 02:06 AM
Someone good at crunching numbers and probability would have to back this up, but I remember listening to a podcast with Patrick Chapin a year or 2 ago, and he was talking about deckbuilding, and I remember him saying that 3 copies of a card is the ideal number for a deck when you want to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand while also minimizing the chances of drawing a second one later in the game. That fits perfectly for Lotus Petal. The first one in your opening hand is tremendous, while every petal you draw afterwards is pretty lousy generally. So with that in mind, I do think 3 is the proper number for the maindeck.

This is accurate. Anyone can run a hypergeometric calculator (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx), here's the numbers:

Population size: 60
Successes: 3 or 4
Sample size: 7
Successes in sample: 1

There's charts to show probabilities over draws throughout the game, but just in your opener the chance of having 2 or more (x > 1) of a 4-of is 6%. Cutting one copy down to 3 reduces the odds of dupes in the opener to 3%. So, 1 out of 18 games versus 1 out of 33 you'll start with dupes in your opener.

There was a thread somewhere with a very good layout of the math involved.... oh yeah here it is (http://diestoremoval.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=845). The image links are bad, but a spreadsheet showing the breakdown (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iYhkAJ_-mCeUU3M09IS2pzZzA/view) is still alive. For now.

kabal
09-21-2016, 08:27 AM
This is accurate. Anyone can run a hypergeometric calculator (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx), here's the numbers:

Population size: 60
Successes: 3 or 4
Sample size: 7
Successes in sample: 1

There's charts to show probabilities over draws throughout the game, but just in your opener the chance of having 2 or more (x > 1) of a 4-of is 6%. Cutting one copy down to 3 reduces the odds of dupes in the opener to 3%. So, 1 out of 18 games versus 1 out of 33 you'll start with dupes in your opener.

There was a thread somewhere with a very good layout of the math involved.... oh yeah here it is (http://diestoremoval.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=845). The image links are bad, but a spreadsheet showing the breakdown (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iYhkAJ_-mCeUU3M09IS2pzZzA/view) is still alive. For now.

Very good read. Thanks for sharing the links.

kingtk3
09-21-2016, 09:58 AM
I remember that many years ago (on the old thread) there was a discussion on the right numbers of each card in order to combo off as fast as possible, and that led to strange results.

Look at this list for example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=557103&viewfull=1#post557103

Only 2 maindeck brainstorms in order to play more business spells: the reasoning behind was that the value of our combo decreases as the game goes on, so casting cantrips was like a "waste" of time comparing to a more threat-dense MD.
Note however the other 2 copies of brainstorm in the side because they are good in grindy MU and for finding sideboard pieces.
That list placed 2nd on a SCG.

Many post followed that list, open mindly discuting and calculating the benefits of each card, maybe you can find some inspiration here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=560048&viewfull=1#post560048
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=561631&viewfull=1#post561631
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=562373&viewfull=1#post562373

Unfortunately the images with the percentiles are not to be found anymore :(

Just some food for thoughts.

maharis
09-21-2016, 10:39 AM
That all being said, I find that Tidespout Tyrant gets me out of so many jams, and Lotus Petal is the best card to pair with it. Maybe it's just my small sample size with the deck but so far I've used Tyrant to repeatedly bounce a Maze of Ith, bounce a Shown & Told Emrakul, and bounce a Reality Smasher (with Brainstorm). This deck isn't really built to grind and almost every topdeck is terrible if they deal with your first guy, I'd rather up my chances of having the explosive starts.

CovenantElite30
09-21-2016, 12:21 PM
That all being said, I find that Tidespout Tyrant gets me out of so many jams, and Lotus Petal is the best card to pair with it. Maybe it's just my small sample size with the deck but so far I've used Tyrant to repeatedly bounce a Maze of Ith, bounce a Shown & Told Emrakul, and bounce a Reality Smasher (with Brainstorm). This deck isn't really built to grind and almost every topdeck is terrible if they deal with your first guy, I'd rather up my chances of having the explosive starts.

Side question, why doesn't this deck play Ashen Rider?

I've had that card get me out of so many jams against random stuff and great against Show and Tell.

PirateKing
09-21-2016, 01:15 PM
Side question, why doesn't this deck play Ashen Rider?

I've had that card get me out of so many jams against random stuff and great against Show and Tell.

Probably because for most players, opposing Show and Tells are at a record low from recent history.
If you're 100% in on your own S&T sideboard (or mainboard) plan, then Ashen Rider is a fair choice. Most players will tell you Tidespout Tyrant has much the same role, and he just does it better.

DoorDie
09-21-2016, 10:21 PM
I remember that many years ago (on the old thread) there was a discussion on the right numbers of each card in order to combo off as fast as possible, and that led to strange results.

Look at this list for example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=557103&viewfull=1#post557103

Only 2 maindeck brainstorms in order to play more business spells: the reasoning behind was that the value of our combo decreases as the game goes on, so casting cantrips was like a "waste" of time comparing to a more threat-dense MD.
Note however the other 2 copies of brainstorm in the side because they are good in grindy MU and for finding sideboard pieces.
...

Just some food for thoughts.

Ahh the Misstep era. Well I can imagine Brainstorm was a lot less good then, especially for a deck that's not so well positioned to fight over it (and doesn't care that much anyway).

And yes, they're leaning on the sheer redundancy we have I always preach about. Imagine if Elves could have up to 8 copies of Glimpse, or S&T have 4 more copies of their namesake card... I have no idea if it'd be good, but they'd probably be more consistent!

CovenantElite30
09-21-2016, 10:37 PM
Probably because for most players, opposing Show and Tells are at a record low from recent history.
If you're 100% in on your own S&T sideboard (or mainboard) plan, then Ashen Rider is a fair choice. Most players will tell you Tidespout Tyrant has much the same role, and he just does it better.
Would it be correct to play Elesh Norn main in a heavy D&T meta?

DoorDie
09-21-2016, 10:50 PM
Would it be correct to play Elesh Norn main in a heavy D&T meta?

Don't mean to interrupt, but she's your silver bullet for Elves, Dredge, D&T (if you can fade Karakas and Swords), and very good against fair decks like RUG Delver. I would say she's standard in the main, and my personal second choice after Griselbrand.

The list from Bazaar of Moxen was a bit exotic, here's a more standard build: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13497&d=279362&f=LE

Interested to hear PirateKing's angle on her as well.

PirateKing
09-22-2016, 09:02 AM
Would it be correct to play Elesh Norn main in a heavy D&T meta?

How do yo mean play?

If you mean somwehere in your 75, then god yes. Her effect is unmatched and irreplaceable. Easy on the eyes too :cool:

If you mean specifically in your mainboard, then probably still yes. She's not going to shine as brightly against D&T as she would against Elves or Infect, but she'll be a must-answer threat for her entire stay on the board. Problem is, that answer seems to come all too easy for them. Swords to Plowshares & Karakas are omnipresent threats, but even a crippled Serra Avenger holding a Jitte is a winning clock for them. She'll still do well, like coming in behind another threat to reduce any counterattacks from their creatures and forcing them to produce two answers before they die. All this on top of all the work she does against many other decks, you'd need a perversely warped meta of nothing but D&T running 4 Karakas and some copies of Crusade before I'd consider cutting her from the front 60. So if that's what you mean by a heavy D&T meta, then I'd recommend finding a different shop, because that's awful.

If you mean as your first choice creature from an Entomb, then no. Game 1 would probably be Griselbrand; even if immediately answered, drawing 7 would fuel a second go around to push through whatever they might have. Game 2 would be Inkwell Leviathan, hands down. Their least expensive answer is Council's Judgement, and barring a substantial number of creatures attacking back at you, he'll close the game out fast. Other choices like Archetype of Endurance or Grave Titan would work with limitations to their effectiveness, but all are made better with a follow up Elesh Norn. So for that reason alone I won't be cutting her after game 1, in any matchup really. Maybe against High Tide? Nourishing Lich?

maharis
09-22-2016, 02:22 PM
How do yo mean play?

If you mean somwehere in your 75, then god yes. Her effect is unmatched and irreplaceable. Easy on the eyes too :cool:

If you mean specifically in your mainboard, then probably still yes. She's not going to shine as brightly against D&T as she would against Elves or Infect, but she'll be a must-answer threat for her entire stay on the board. Problem is, that answer seems to come all too easy for them. Swords to Plowshares & Karakas are omnipresent threats, but even a crippled Serra Avenger holding a Jitte is a winning clock for them. She'll still do well, like coming in behind another threat to reduce any counterattacks from their creatures and forcing them to produce two answers before they die. All this on top of all the work she does against many other decks, you'd need a perversely warped meta of nothing but D&T running 4 Karakas and some copies of Crusade before I'd consider cutting her from the front 60. So if that's what you mean by a heavy D&T meta, then I'd recommend finding a different shop, because that's awful.

If you mean as your first choice creature from an Entomb, then no. Game 1 would probably be Griselbrand; even if immediately answered, drawing 7 would fuel a second go around to push through whatever they might have. Game 2 would be Inkwell Leviathan, hands down. Their least expensive answer is Council's Judgement, and barring a substantial number of creatures attacking back at you, he'll close the game out fast. Other choices like Archetype of Endurance or Grave Titan would work with limitations to their effectiveness, but all are made better with a follow up Elesh Norn. So for that reason alone I won't be cutting her after game 1, in any matchup really. Maybe against High Tide? Nourishing Lich?

On the topic of Inkwell Leviathan, I put one in my sideboard because we have a player on D&T in our meta. I didn't bring it in against Shardless BUG which cost me the game. I had a Needle on Liliana and an Elesh Norn in play vs. his Tarmogoyf. Had to fade a Jace, which of course he drew, bounced Elesh. I had Entomb + Exhume vs. his empty hand, but the best I could do was Grave Titan, which was bounced by Jace and the zombies eaten by Tarmogoyf before I could figure anything else out.

That got me thinking: Is Inkwell a better threat than Titan, either in G1 or overall? I have yet to be very impressed with Titan, it's basically there in case of Liliana but I can't imagine there are going to be too many game 1s where I go for Titan and then they are able to resolve a Liliana (I will probably go for Griselbrand first in the dark and hope to hit Force + blue or Daze a Liliana, if not just set up a second combo. Or, I will try to set up Iona on black, which is what I did to win G1 against this player). I guess the advantage of titan is sometimes you accidentally cast him? (I have been on the other end of that).

Has anyone ever tested either of the Sigardas? The original is close to unkillable, while the new one can't be edicted and allows you to build a ground army with your used business spells and fetchlands. Also gives you something to do under Grafdigger's Cage.

Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sigarda, Heron's Grace

PirateKing
09-22-2016, 03:39 PM
Inkwell is good against targeted removal and it's fun to trample over something under Mom's protection.
Grave Titan is good against edicts and winning races against grounded creatures like Goyf and Angler.

So depending on your anticipated game 1, you could swap the position of either. Against an unknown opponent, both are third string creatures, so I wouldn't sweat the numbers too much on them.

For me it's the fact that in a vacuum, Grave Titan is a 2 turn clock and Inkwell Leviathan is a 3 turn clock.

Fox
09-22-2016, 08:02 PM
Has anyone ever tested either of the Sigardas? The original is close to unkillable, while the new one can't be edicted and allows you to build a ground army with your used business spells and fetchlands. Also gives you something to do under Grafdigger's Cage.
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sigarda, Heron's Grace
The new Sigarda is pretty terrible; it's a 5 turn clock that would struggle to race even 1 hatebear after you cast Reanimate. The old one, while hard to kill, isn't a great payoff card. If you're in the market for a 5/5 flier that's hard to kill, I think you have to get Sphinx of the Final Word. Otherwise you probably use ArchPig for Sigarda-like text.

CovenantElite30
09-23-2016, 10:13 AM
The new Sigarda is pretty terrible; it's a 5 turn clock that would struggle to race even 1 hatebear after you cast Reanimate. The old one, while hard to kill, isn't a great payoff card. If you're in the market for a 5/5 flier that's hard to kill, I think you have to get Sphinx of the Final Word. Otherwise you probably use ArchPig for Sigarda-like text.

I've been playing Archetype of Endurance main and haven't been impressed. Is Inkwell Leviathan just a better option?

PirateKing
09-23-2016, 11:08 AM
Archetype of Endurance is the card to double down with, it's him plus Griselbrand. Always him plus one. Solo he's underwhelming. Last I heard Stryfo still likes him, and that's how he utilizes it in matches.
If you're in the "one creature is all I need" camp then Inkwell is better.

Stryfo
09-23-2016, 11:34 AM
Yeah, I still prefer Archetype for my own style, but inkwell is by far the best solo shroud creature.

CovenantElite30
09-23-2016, 02:29 PM
Yeah, I still prefer Archetype for my own style, but inkwell is by far the best solo shroud creature.
Is it better to play one of these hexproof creatures in the main or in the side? In what meta would you generally want to play one in the main?

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Stryfo
09-23-2016, 03:00 PM
My opinion is that having access to one shroud creature in the main gives you a lot of extra game against DnT, lands, and gwx decks. I also really like archetype specifically against miracles as they can't beat archetype plus Iona white. If you don't expect these decks, or like your game 1 against them enough, put your shroud dude in the board.

RNGesus
09-24-2016, 11:16 AM
Anyone has feedback on Magister of Worth? There may be some merit having it in the main as an out when the opponent has assembled a formidable board state. It is also a great target for Exhume as you pretty much blank the creature the opponent is returning.

Fox
09-24-2016, 12:46 PM
Anyone has feedback on Magister of Worth? There may be some merit having it in the main as an out when the opponent has assembled a formidable board state. It is also a great target for Exhume as you pretty much blank the creature the opponent is returning.
Magister of Worth doesn't solve many problems (if hatebears were out, you aren't getting this one in play anyways). It's definitely as castable as Grave Titan (if you have white mana in your build), but I think Elesh Norn is generally the better and safer play. Now vs decks that use SnT, this is a great card to put in Elesh Norn's place out of the SB (but you'd still rather have Ashen Rider I think).

The card feels better suited to LED decks, specifically TinFins (which does run white for Mentor or SFM sideboards). Also with LEDs you potentially get to use Unburial Rites, though it doubles down on the zone you don't want to.

DoorDie
09-24-2016, 08:55 PM
It is great that Magister's default mode is wrath, but Elesh does the same work most of the time. She also doesn't wrath your own creatures.

The real key is any future creatures coming into play. Dredge, elves, and infect can all rebuild and come back after a Magister. Not after an Elesh Norn though; she's a stone-cold silver bullet G1 (some exceptions to this like MD Karakas). They're locked out and can't do anything.

rgrintz
10-13-2016, 09:00 PM
Has anyone looked into using any of the gearhulks from kaladesh?

Damaku
10-15-2016, 06:49 AM
Has anyone looked into using any of the gearhulks from kaladesh?

I do not think that any of the hulks ist even close to the Creatures we have.

Dutch253
10-15-2016, 04:04 PM
I've been seeing more and more lists running Chancellor of the Annex, sometimes as many as 4. Isn't that old school tech? I haven't seen that in ages, why is it all of a sudden coming back?


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Secretly.A.Bee
10-15-2016, 04:12 PM
Because being faster is becoming increasingly important in the current metagame in the face of a new breed of Death and Taxes, many strong, cheap graveyard hate choices are available, some of which are an integral part of the main decks (DRS). They are also a threat as well as disruption all in one.

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Fox
10-15-2016, 06:31 PM
Chancellors are also more often featured in non-U versions of reanimator which are more linear, faster, and really all-in on beating up fair decks.

jwl3gg
10-17-2016, 10:36 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30840-Primer-BRx-Griselbrand-Reanimator

This is the link you're looking for if you want to know more about BR Reanimator.

Thanks, was just about to ask about that!

DoorDie
10-18-2016, 08:49 AM
It's been about a year since I've actually played, so I haven't played the Eldrazi matchup. What's our best silver bullet versus Eldrazi?

PirateKing
10-18-2016, 09:18 AM
Difficult to say. I've started including Blazing Archon in my side for the matchup, but my meta is 100% on the White Eldrazi plan, and Eldrazi Displacer & Containment Priest effect some dangerous synergy upon my board. No creature offers the self-protection whilst delaying their own fast clock. I guess the cop out would be to suggest Archetype of Endurance & any other card.

Against the strictly MUD versions, my understanding is Blazing Archon is indeed a hard lock for them, while Tidespout Tyrant can also hobble them effectively.

Stryfo
10-19-2016, 12:31 AM
Sphinx of the steel wind is also very difficult for them to beat, and better in the delver matchups than archon.

Damaku
10-21-2016, 10:23 AM
Congratulations to Nicholas Santini. He reached 5th at ethernal extravaganza with a cool reanimator list!

Dear Nicholas, if you ready this, can you tell us some things about you deck?

- How did the Researcher perform?
- What can you tell us about you landbase?
- Why is there no shroud creature?
- What is your bording Plan (D&t, Eldrazi, miracles)?






Reanimator

4 Lotus Petal
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Force of Will
4 Exhume
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
3 Griselbrand
3 Daze
3 Ponder
2 Hapless Researcher
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Show and Tell
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
1 Grave Titan
1 Collective Brutality

Cpt-Qc
11-01-2016, 11:22 PM
With the rise in BR reanimators, I hate not being the fastest combo deck at my LGS anymore.

I was under the impression that we were favored against BR but tonight was the second time I faced it and he T1'd me twice, just like last week.

Can't even fight through T1 reanimation because of Chancelor... life is hard for UB reanimator.

Fox
11-02-2016, 12:04 PM
With the rise in BR reanimators, I hate not being the fastest combo deck at my LGS anymore.

I was under the impression that we were favored against BR but tonight was the second time I faced it and he T1'd me twice, just like last week.

Can't even fight through T1 reanimation because of Chancelor... life is hard for UB reanimator.

The good news is that there are 8x FoWs not called FoW: Surgical and Noxious Revival. Surgical is fine (unnecessary, but fine) in the board, but consider Noxious x2 main if you want to plow through Chancellors early. Fire off FoW first into the daze-angel then time walk them with Noxious or reverse the order if you've got the Reanimate in hand. There are also plenty of looping tricks with Noxious + dredge mechanic/Hapless that keep Exhume (on the stack) live as you potentially cycle a fatty targeted by Surgical to library and back to yard, breaking Surgical's targeting. Other benefits include making 2nd land drop off same fetch and shrugging off discard if it's in your hand. There are a couple of other 0 mana options, but they're less applicable to other matchups and just worse (ESG/SSG or Gemstone Caverns gambling).

gigapatrick
11-28-2016, 10:11 AM
Hello all,

I've recently taken up Reanimator in an attempt to learn how to play a second Legacy deck. (I've been playing RG Lands for a couple years but would like to master another archetype, if that's possible.) So, as a new Reanimator player, I'd like to field some questions:

1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?

2. I've seen some lists run Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the sideboard. Given that his best ability seems to involve graveyard interaction and that we're sure to see graveyard hate in games two and three, why should we run him?

3. Do we ever board out Force of Will?

4. What do we usually cut when we need to bring in cards like Pithing Needle or Abrupt Decay?

5. When should we bring in a card like Show and Tell? How about Echoing Truth?

6. Other tips or interactions I should know about?

Thanks in advance.

Fox
11-28-2016, 12:31 PM
Hello all,

I've recently taken up Reanimator in an attempt to learn how to play a second Legacy deck. (I've been playing RG Lands for a couple years but would like to master another archetype, if that's possible.) So, as a new Reanimator player, I'd like to field some questions:

1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?

2. I've seen some lists run Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the sideboard. Given that his best ability seems to involve graveyard interaction and that we're sure to see graveyard hate in games two and three, why should we run him?

3. Do we ever board out Force of Will?

4. What do we usually cut when we need to bring in cards like Pithing Needle or Abrupt Decay?

5. When should we bring in a card like Show and Tell? How about Echoing Truth?

6. Other tips or interactions I should know about?

Thanks in advance.
1. Do you mind playing a deck that people can just choose not to lose to? If the answer is no, you just can't play B/R. Unlike B/R, U/B is more likely to win a post-board game through hate.
2. Flip-Jace is tailor-made for Reanimator. You can count on a given deck in legacy running 2x Surgicals in the board; but after this falling way down in % chance you'll be up against RiP/Leyline/Macabre - and of those 3, Leyline is probably the most likely (except DnT which classically run RiP, and still has it). Worst case scenario, he'll be a looter; best case, you'll be able to fix the inconsistencies inherent in board games.
3. Unlikely; maybe vs game action decks like Dredge. If you'd want to draw into FoW with Grisel, they're staying in.
4. Shaving 9-10th reanimation effect, cutting some number of Careful Study, and other cuts come out of Daze & discard slots. Reanimation targets are generally swapped 1:1. Cutting a land or some number of Petals (depending on build) is not uncommon.
5. The simple answer is post-board games where they bring in hate vs graveyard without also overloading discard or keeping you from 3 mana.
6. We're actually a Delver deck in disguise, Reanimate targeting their threats is very live.

gigapatrick
11-28-2016, 07:59 PM
2. Flip-Jace is tailor-made for Reanimator. You can count on a given deck in legacy running 2x Surgicals in the board; but after this falling way down in % chance you'll be up against RiP/Leyline/Macabre - and of those 3, Leyline is probably the most likely (except DnT which classically run RiP, and still has it). Worst case scenario, he'll be a looter; best case, you'll be able to fix the inconsistencies inherent in board games.

Advice on when to board him in?

Fox
11-28-2016, 08:25 PM
Advice on when to board him in?
I think at this point he's usually getting maindeck play; regardless, probably less optimal vs Revoker decks and not likely to be relevant vs non-FoW combo decks. Could also see cutting it vs 6-8x red blast decks like Painter. If you're going to get into turn three and are interested in flip-jace/Reanimate game (he dies to removal, Reanimate him, and have Reanimate 'flashback' on a later turn) or feel like you'll have time to Entomb an instant/sorc target, it's probably best to include him.

PirateKing
11-29-2016, 12:08 PM
1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?
You pretty much have it. BR is fast, and aims to come under a lot of opponent's hate. Lots of fast mana, but without blue they can't do much than play the 7 they opened with. UB has moved from trying to keep up in terms of speed and is more wiling to take a turn to sculpt if it means landing a T2 with protection. BR tends to lean more on Sire of Insanity for the early lock, for them Griselbrand is good but they don't have any counterspells to draw into. I stopped running my Sire after OmniTell go neutered and Eldrazi became a thing.

2. I've seen some lists run Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the sideboard. Given that his best ability seems to involve graveyard interaction and that we're sure to see graveyard hate in games two and three, why should we run him?
I don't recommend flip Jace in the side, if you run him he's in the main. You're right that we're not looking to double down on graveyard effects after sideboard. We're generally favored preboard in most of our matches, so diversifying our threats to close out any postboard games should be the focus. For a lot of players he is too slow, and when he helps win you've already won with other cards in hand.

3. Do we ever board out Force of Will?
Not really, no. Like Fox said, maybe against Dredge, but they'll still have haymakers like Dread Return, so I wouldn't.

4. What do we usually cut when we need to bring in cards like Pithing Needle or Abrupt Decay?
Postboard I cut my Dazes for Abrupt Decay against most opponents. I have flex slots currently held by Thoughtseize and Izzet Charm, and those usually get filled by cards better serving the deck I'm facing. Try and replace cards in purpose with those that do it better; reactive protection that could be better served by an early proactive protection.


5. When should we bring in a card like Show and Tell? How about Echoing Truth?
As above, replace cards in kind. Show and Tell should be replacing Animate Dead or Exhume. Bring it in any time you think they might try and mess with your graveyard (ie every game ever). Echoing Truth gets picked if I suspect Leyline of the Void or I see death by tokens in my near future. In almost every other instance I'm better served by Abrupt Decay.

6. Other tips or interactions I should know about?
Like Fox said, don't forget Reanimate and Animate Dead allow you to pick from any graveyard. They might be fringe cases, but I've won games by getting their own Deathrite Shaman and eating stuff in response to their own DRS. I've stolen a Miracle player's Snapcaster Mage to flashback Entomb to find Iona and lock the game. Manaless Dredge with Chancellor of the Annex is just mean, but I've done it.
You can Thoughtseize yourself in a pinch.
It can be mana intensive, but since Exhume doesn't target, you can respond to an effect with an Entomb and get something through a DRS or Surgical Extraction.
Against white decks you can protect a Tidespout Tyrant brought back with Animate Deck from StP by bouncing the enchantment.

Good luck with the deck.

Ephemeron
11-29-2016, 02:47 PM
I think PirateKing has offered excellent advice, the only thing I would disagree with is JVP in the main vs. sideboard. I think JVP is a good sideboard card and a terrible maindeck card.

UB Reanimator certainly isn't as fast as BR Reanimator but it's still a blazing fast combo deck game 1. A two mana spell which doesn't have any impact the turn it's played is simply too slow for what you want to be doing. Sideboard games are much grindier however due to all the hate opponents are gonna bring in. Those are the games where you can get away with playing JVP. Additionally, JVP maindeck turns on a lot of removal spells like Bolt and Decay and PFire that would normally be close to blanks for your opponent game 1. In sideboarded games, you can expect those cards to be removed, and that's when JVP really shines because he can go to work on the board with a much greater chance of you untapping with him.

I can understand the concern with boarding in another card that's reliant on the graveyard to generate maximum value, but I've found that I flash back a lot of spells that the opponents usually ignore, especially with Miracles and Delver decks moving toward Surgical as their main form of graveyard hate. Flashing back Thoughtseize or Collective Brutality to nab another piece of hate out of their hand feels great and even flashing back Ponder is perfectly fine - if they want to waste Surgical on one of those cards to "counter" it, I'd chalk that up as a win for Reanimator. Yeah, JVP sucks against Leyline of the Void decks (Eldrazi) and RiP decks (pretty much only D&T these days), but I wouldn't want him against Eldrazi anyways, and the downside is he's a looter every turn that can get you closer to finding an Abrupt Decay or Massacre against D&T.

crowe_1
11-29-2016, 03:10 PM
To add about Echoing Truth, it's useful in a lot of situations AD isn't:
- Surprise answer to Marit Lage.
- In the mirror; their Iona is going to name black most of the time to stop your reanimation cold and to get around your Surgicals. Echoing Truth gets rid of it while AD can't.
- ET is blue and keeps your blue count up for FoW post-board.
- Hits multiples. This is not only relevant versus Goblin and Elemental tokens. Deathrite Shaman is the most played creature in the format by far, so the opponent slamming T1 Shaman on the play followed by another the next turn is something that's going to be pretty common over time. A single ET before the combo turn fixes this. Same is obviously true versus multiple G Cages (played a lot in my area), Chalices on one, Thorn of Amethysts/Sphere of Resistances, etc...watch out for Relic of Progenitus though because them sacrificing the targeted one makes ET fizzle, so it won't get the others. (All of these situations have come up for me before.)
- Doesn't require fetching an off-colour dual. Reanimator can have limited mana sometimes as-is. This can help versus Blood Moon/Magus/Back to Basics because you can cast ET off a basic Island, whereas Reanimator will probably never run a Forest for AD.
- ET is not nearly as good as AD versus Counterbalance, Chalice on two (totally ineffective here), or Containment Priest. These are the main reasons AD's "can't be countered" clause and destroy effect matter. In many other cases, the counterspell they're using on Echoing Truth would just have been used on Reanimate/Exhume anyway, and permanent-based hate other than Containment Priest doesn't have Flash so an end-step bounce is (usually) just as good.

Basically, I advocate bringing in at least one ET in addition to ADs. I personally don't splash for ADs and I do fine, but there are no Miracles players in my area other than me so I don't have to worry about Counterbalance. I def would run them if my area had a proper amount of Miracles.

Damaku
11-29-2016, 03:11 PM
With all the recent hype about our R/B brother deck I started to notice that some of our old sideboard enemys came back.
I did not miss that black leyline for a bit!
I thought about adding some Collective Brutality and moving away from my S&Ts. Now I am not sure about it.

What are your thoughts on Brutality and countering the black leyline?

crowe_1
11-29-2016, 03:55 PM
If you're worried about Leyline of the Void I would think you'd move towards Show and Tell rather than away. Also more copies of Echoing Truth in the board would help, in addition to Golgari Charm.

Collective Brutality shines against Deathrite Shaman and Counterspells. Probably ideal versus Grixis Delver and BUG Delver if there's a lot of that in your area. I have yet to play test the card as I like Thoughtseize's ability to discard enchantment and artifact based hate, plus Containment Priest. CB CAN kill Priest, but not when they flash it in while Reanimate is on the stack.

Richard Cheese
11-29-2016, 04:30 PM
Anybody test Demon of Dark Schemes vs. Elesh yet? Non-legendary with Massacre and reanimation built in...too cute?

gigapatrick
11-29-2016, 07:01 PM
Anybody test Demon of Dark Schemes vs. Elesh yet? Non-legendary with Massacre and reanimation built in...too cute?

Isn't Massacre Wurm better than this card, since it has the chance to kill the opponent on the spot?

vieko
11-29-2016, 07:07 PM
Isn't Massacre Wurm better than this card, since it has the chance to kill the opponent on the spot?

Beat me to it.

Richard Cheese
11-30-2016, 11:17 AM
Isn't Massacre Wurm better than this card, since it has the chance to kill the opponent on the spot?

My thinking was that you wanted that kind of effect to kill hatebears, and that if there were enough for Wurm's lifeloss to have that much of an impact you probably wouldn't be able to get it into play anyway. Maybe the same case for new guy, and actual Massacre is just better than both. I do like the fact that he gives you a non-spell way to reanimate something else in case there are flickerwisp shenanigans or something.

Fox
11-30-2016, 12:38 PM
The issue with Demon of the Dark Schemes is you potentially wrath the board, have all this energy, and then he dies to StP before you untap and have a way to spend any energy? The card is functionally the same as Magister of Worth which was recently discussed.

KobeBryan
11-30-2016, 01:29 PM
The issue with Demon of the Dark Schemes is you potentially wrath the board, have all this energy, and then he dies to StP before you untap and have a way to spend any energy? The card is functionally the same as Magister of Worth which was recently discussed.

You can't use the it dies to STP argument. its the same with elesh norn. Besides, this wouldn't be the first card you reanimate. It would always and should be Grisel and/or archetype.

Elesh should be the finisher.

CabalTherapy
12-02-2016, 06:43 AM
1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?
You pretty much have it. BR is fast, and aims to come under a lot of opponent's hate. Lots of fast mana, but without blue they can't do much than play the 7 they opened with. UB has moved from trying to keep up in terms of speed and is more wiling to take a turn to sculpt if it means landing a T2 with protection. BR tends to lean more on Sire of Insanity for the early lock, for them Griselbrand is good but they don't have any counterspells to draw into. I stopped running my Sire after OmniTell go neutered and Eldrazi became a thing.


The funny thing is here that they don't realize that the 4 Griselbrand/4 Chancellor/1 Children of Korlis/1 Tendrils of Agony package is much better than their "stock" lists with Sires. This deck becomes a monster when playing the Tendrils-kill but yeah, UB plays mtg at least.

Fox
12-02-2016, 08:09 AM
You can't use the it dies to STP argument. its the same with elesh norn. Besides, this wouldn't be the first card you reanimate. It would always and should be Grisel and/or archetype.
You have to wait a full turn for an untap step to even make energy a resource you can use, the trigger has to resolve with this guy still having just entered play to get energy in the first place. So like Magister you spend 2 cards (also possibly 6 life), you wrath their board, and...probably just lose from that point. You're asking for a lot from this card if you think you'll be able to get 4 energy and also spend it (again that's 4 guys have to die for the value text to mean anything). A one-time wrath creature isn't good enough; Elesh is an ongoing wrath effect that also protects your life total with keyword vigilance, Ashen Rider while narrower is more likely to win in a precise scenario. This is a smaller, flying Massacre Wurm - and there's a very real chance that the drain 2 life clause would translate into more win %age. Demon of Dark Schemes is a cool card, the ideas behind it are especially neat in the limited format; but it's not going to win games for us in legacy without having Hexproof/Shroud or a novel combination like Protection from White + Trample.

On a side note, you don't always get to choose what to Reanimate based on opening hands and what a card like Careful Study finds - you will have games where this will be the first guy you have to bring back; any reanimation target has to be looked at with this in mind. Even Archetype of Endurance is a controversial inclusion in U/Bx in part b/c of this scenario (though it also lacks trample, costs 8 life, and is a bit winmore-ish since you're saying that you're comboing the second time while the first target is still in play).

Ephemeron
12-02-2016, 10:08 AM
The funny thing is here that they don't realize that the 4 Griselbrand/4 Chancellor/1 Children of Korlis/1 Tendrils of Agony package is much better than their "stock" lists with Sires. This deck becomes a monster when playing the Tendrils-kill but yeah, UB plays mtg at least.

So basically Tin Fins with Chancellor? Or is this a totally separate deck? I've been wondering for a while actually what the advantages of BR Reanimator are over Tin Fins. If you want a faster Griselbrand reanimator deck, why not play the one that actually wins the turn it gets Griselbrand into play?

Richard Cheese
12-02-2016, 04:10 PM
You have to wait a full turn for an untap step to even make energy a resource you can use, the trigger has to resolve with this guy still having just entered play to get energy in the first place. So like Magister you spend 2 cards (also possibly 6 life), you wrath their board, and...probably just lose from that point. You're asking for a lot from this card if you think you'll be able to get 4 energy and also spend it (again that's 4 guys have to die for the value text to mean anything). A one-time wrath creature isn't good enough; Elesh is an ongoing wrath effect that also protects your life total with keyword vigilance, Ashen Rider while narrower is more likely to win in a precise scenario. This is a smaller, flying Massacre Wurm - and there's a very real chance that the drain 2 life clause would translate into more win %age. Demon of Dark Schemes is a cool card, the ideas behind it are especially neat in the limited format; but it's not going to win games for us in legacy without having Hexproof/Shroud or a novel combination like Protection from White + Trample.

On a side note, you don't always get to choose what to Reanimate based on opening hands and what a card like Careful Study finds - you will have games where this will be the first guy you have to bring back; any reanimation target has to be looked at with this in mind. Even Archetype of Endurance is a controversial inclusion in U/Bx in part b/c of this scenario (though it also lacks trample, costs 8 life, and is a bit winmore-ish since you're saying that you're comboing the second time while the first target is still in play).

I don't necessarily disagree, but I just want to point out that his ability does not require tapping. So while it may be a long shot, there is the potential to use it immediately.

@Ephemeron: TinFins also has a way better name, and all the sexiest players. Also a secret handshake, it's own cocktail, and secret late-night menu at Grizzlebees.

PirateKing
12-02-2016, 04:33 PM
TinFins also has a way better name, and all the sexiest players. Also a secret handshake, it's own cocktail, and secret late-night menu at Grizzlebees.

Dick go home you're drunk :tongue:

Ingo
12-02-2016, 05:10 PM
1. Do you mind playing a deck that people can just choose not to lose to? If the answer is no, you just can't play B/R. Unlike B/R, U/B is more likely to win a post-board game through hate.



1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?


The funny thing is here that they don't realize that the 4 Griselbrand/4 Chancellor/1 Children of Korlis/1 Tendrils of Agony package is much better than their "stock" lists with Sires. This deck becomes a monster when playing the Tendrils-kill but yeah, UB plays mtg at least.

If this is all true, how come BR Reanimator puts up great results recently in major tournaments, while UB Reanimator hardly tops? I don't mean this in a sarcasic, negative way, but seriously, isn't there something else than a sudden rise in popularity making this deck spike due to the amount it's being played?

It is probably so that the loss of consistency is compensated by the sheer speed (outpacing the hate rather than answering it), and that Collective Brutality is a beastly card for BR-reanimator and much harder to play in UB because of the number of blue cards needed for FOW.

Goose
12-02-2016, 09:18 PM
If this is all true, how come BR Reanimator puts up great results recently in major tournaments, while UB Reanimator hardly tops? I don't mean this in a sarcasic, negative way, but seriously, isn't there something else than a sudden rise in popularity making this deck spike due to the amount it's being played?

It is probably so that the loss of consistency is compensated by the sheer speed (outpacing the hate rather than answering it), and that Collective Brutality is a beastly card for BR-reanimator and much harder to play in UB because of the number of blue cards needed for FOW.

I feel like your second paragraph kind of answers your questions. BR is powerful, fast, and redundant. One of my guesses is it has taken advantage of the meta. If people start packing more Leylines as their primary gy hate due to its popularity I can see UB being the better choice with access to Echoing Truth and S&T.

JPoJohnson
12-02-2016, 11:45 PM
I feel like your second paragraph kind of answers your questions. BR is powerful, fast, and redundant. One of my guesses is it has taken advantage of the meta. If people start packing more Leylines as their primary gy hate due to its popularity I can see UB being the better choice with access to Echoing Truth and S&T.

You say that like BR can't splash for blue? That's pretty common with the list. A single Scrubland so that they can run 4x Wear/Tear out of the sideboard. Leyline doesn't hurt those prepared for the sideboard hate. Many also run a single Underground Sea so that they can pull in S&T out of the sideboard.

I too am curious what the strength of running UB over UR is right now. I've only run mono black or RB, so I don't have experience with UB. The only thing I see is a better late game for you guys potentially...?

mistercakes
12-03-2016, 03:53 AM
realtively innovative list found on mtggoldfish:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/521404#paper

note 4 faithless looting over careful study and 2 dack fayden. looks like it took up two 5-0's. maybe worth testing. anyone on here the pilot of that?

DoorDie
12-03-2016, 04:57 AM
I like the Dack tech, and I've tried running faithless but the flashback matters so little. Also the acceleration plus 9x cantrips is highly suspect. We have plenty of redundancy available, if you're going to go pitching cards to move faster it might as well be to execute the combo and not dig to find the combo or worse, your first land. Petal => Ponder => shuffle is so much worse than Land => Ponder => shuffle.

Fox
12-03-2016, 07:20 AM
@Ingo the reason B/R is putting up results is that it is built to punish other decks (especially fair ones) for maladapting to miracles, specifically the card Counterbalance. Most decks are running around with 2x Surgical in the board and very few will exceed 3 total anti-yard slots in the board. These other decks wanting a sporting chance vs miracles are throwing out matchups vs the field with choices like: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Garruk Relentless, TNN, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, Sanctum Prelate, K-Grip, Painful Truths, Needles/Null Rod, etc...on top of stuff like Decay, Cavern of Souls, x/1 cantrip upon ETB value critters focused at cmc 2.

These decks are in the process of realizing that actually no, they can't beat this type of aggressive combo deck with discard and almost no yard hate (there's a good chance that DRS can't even come down until turn 2 lining up nicely with Coll. Brutality). These decks probably won't stop the dubious trend of upshifting cmcs for miracles, so the real question is whether or not they're willing to throw out approximately half of their sideboard just to auto-win post-board games vs B/R - as long as the answer to that question is no, they will continue to suffer build-order losses. If the answer is yes, they probably crippled their chance to get deep into a tournament as ~half their sideboard is aimed at maybe 1 in 15 deck strategies in the room. Right now Eldrazi is the only deck doing well in long events while running the 4x Leyline and often a number of Faerie Macabre on top of that. The practice though is somewhat questionable as they still routinely die to discard your Smasher, Reanimate your Smasher, I win??

At the end of the day the reason B/R is doing well is that most decks that would beat it pre- and post-board, without ever needing to resort to uninteractive "I can't lose like that" cards, don't exist [either at all, or at the amount they should] b/c Counterbalance isn't banned. B/R exploits a fair deck's inability to compete with miracles and fill the anti-hyper combo role, it's powerful and it wins games...but its winrate doesn't really track with pilot skill, and that piloting skill is being put into a deck that will only exist for as long as miracles is allowed to warp the format.

DNSolver
12-03-2016, 09:18 AM
Fox, that is a very well-thought out analysis. As a BR enthusiast, I actually agree completely. To add to that, that analysis also extends to the Miracles matchups. Miracles is focused on beating the Miracles mirror in their sideboard and that's a lot of slots.

Medea_
12-03-2016, 09:30 AM
Hey folks,

I'm looking to put together a BR Reanimator list so that I can do a write up on the D&T matchup for Thraben University. My question to you all is: "What's the closest thing to a stock or finely tuned decklist you all have?" These are the sorts of things I'm considering in putting together my list, and I would appreciate any input on how/why to make my card choices.

Looking over data, I've seen decks with and without Collective Brutality main. Ken'ichirou Omori's list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518629#online) from Chiba did not have Collective Brutality main, but many of the 5-0 MTGO decklists do. The ones that don't have Collective Brutality are tending to play Unmask. Why should I play one over the other?

The alternative win conditions in the sideboard vary a little bit. I've seen both Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit. To what extend are you all just answering opposing hate and comboing off, just hardcasting a threat instead, or relying on cards like Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit? Given the speed of the deck, it seems to me like you all get to just ignore most opposing hate with the exception of Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre.

Is there any interesting tech worth including in the decklist? I'll likely be playing this deck against many of my other locals in preparation for the upcoming GP, so I'd like to have a nice, solid list rather than something that happens to crush D&T extra hard.

Thanks,

-Phil Gallagher

CabalTherapy
12-03-2016, 09:33 AM
Hey folks,

I'm looking to put together a BR Reanimator list so that I can do a write up on the D&T matchup for Thraben University. My question to you all is: "What's the closest thing to a stock or finely tuned decklist you all have?" These are the sorts of things I'm considering in putting together my list, and I would appreciate any input on how/why to make my card choices.

Looking over data, I've seen decks with and without Collective Brutality main. Ken'ichirou Omori's list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518629#online) from Chiba did not have Collective Brutality main, but many of the 5-0 MTGO decklists do. The ones that don't have Collective Brutality are tending to play Unmask. Why should I play one over the other?

The alternative win conditions in the sideboard vary a little bit. I've seen both Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit. To what extend are you all just answering opposing hate and comboing off, just hardcasting a threat instead, or relying on cards like Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit? Given the speed of the deck, it seems to me like you all get to just ignore most opposing hate with the exception of Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre.

Is there any interesting tech worth including in the decklist? I'll likely be playing this deck against many of my other locals in preparation for the upcoming GP, so I'd like to have a nice, solid list rather than something that happens to crush D&T extra hard.

Thanks,

-Phil Gallagher

Hey Thaliaboy, you might go to the developmental forums and check out the respective thread to that pile. The dudes who post in here play with Brainstorms and Ponders.

Ingo
12-03-2016, 10:42 AM
@Ingo the reason B/R is putting up results is that it is built to punish other decks (especially fair ones) for maladapting to miracles, specifically the card Counterbalance. Most decks are running around with 2x Surgical in the board and very few will exceed 3 total anti-yard slots in the board. These other decks wanting a sporting chance vs miracles are throwing out matchups vs the field with choices like: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Garruk Relentless, TNN, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, Sanctum Prelate, K-Grip, Painful Truths, Needles/Null Rod, etc...on top of stuff like Decay, Cavern of Souls, x/1 cantrip upon ETB value critters focused at cmc 2.

These decks are in the process of realizing that actually no, they can't beat this type of aggressive combo deck with discard and almost no yard hate (there's a good chance that DRS can't even come down until turn 2 lining up nicely with Coll. Brutality). These decks probably won't stop the dubious trend of upshifting cmcs for miracles, so the real question is whether or not they're willing to throw out approximately half of their sideboard just to auto-win post-board games vs B/R - as long as the answer to that question is no, they will continue to suffer build-order losses. If the answer is yes, they probably crippled their chance to get deep into a tournament as ~half their sideboard is aimed at maybe 1 in 15 deck strategies in the room. Right now Eldrazi is the only deck doing well in long events while running the 4x Leyline and often a number of Faerie Macabre on top of that. The practice though is somewhat questionable as they still routinely die to discard your Smasher, Reanimate your Smasher, I win??

At the end of the day the reason B/R is doing well is that most decks that would beat it pre- and post-board, without ever needing to resort to uninteractive "I can't lose like that" cards, don't exist [either at all, or at the amount they should] b/c Counterbalance isn't banned. B/R exploits a fair deck's inability to compete with miracles and fill the anti-hyper combo role, it's powerful and it wins games...but its winrate doesn't really track with pilot skill, and that piloting skill is being put into a deck that will only exist for as long as miracles is allowed to warp the format.

This is an interesting analysis. But shouldn't UB Reanimator equally benefit from this lack of gravehate? I think that in addition to Miracles, DRS is a second decisive factor. It's maindeck hate, and played in 34%! of all decks (according to mtgtop8). So if we count in DRS as gravehate, the hate isn't low at all. BR probably is a turn faster than UB, and this is likely the difference between a DRS with or without summonsickness. And as you mentioned, Collective Brutality is a second possibility of beating DRS game1.



Hey Thaliaboy, you might go to the developmental forums and check out the respective thread to that pile. The dudes who post in here play with Brainstorms and Ponders.

Your post is offensive and void of any interesting argumentation, at least Medea shows interest beyond his own environment. And as far as cantrips are concerned, there's not a thing in the world they will do for you against an active DRS, if your slower and don't pack maindeck answers.

Fox
12-03-2016, 11:24 AM
This is an interesting analysis. But shouldn't UB Reanimator equally benefit from this lack of gravehate? I think that in addition to Miracles, DRS is a second decisive factor. It's maindeck hate, and played in 34%! of all decks (according to mtgtop8). So if we count in DRS as gravehate, the hate isn't low at all. BR probably is a turn faster than UB, and this is likely the difference between a DRS with or without summonsickness. And as you mentioned, Collective Brutality is a second possibility of beating DRS game1.
U/Bx primarily benefits from the presence of other combo decks both as opponents and tools to downward regulate DRS presence. We have a high power ceiling and are thus at least competitive regardless of the meta, but playing against Counterbalance directly and the deck styles it indirectly promotes is quite bad for us. In terms of combating CB directly you're on Decay; this spell has never helped anyone proactively win a game of magic, but at least it can read 'Entomb opponent's in-play creature so I can steal it.' The larger problem than being a dead draw [which is obviously really bad against Clique followed by CB] is the price you pay to make it castable; the manabase implications are potentially game-losing when you're matched up vs fair decks (Wasteland +/- Stifle or Chalice).

In the hypothetical where DRS was never printed our deck obviously gets better vs fair strats, but CB is still distorting overall combo presence; there still wouldn't be enough preferred matchups to maintain a tier 1 status. As it is, DRS numbers are a little out of control which results in less specific yard hate - the combination potential of Daze Angel + getting to Brutality mana before DRS can activate, even on the draw (or making them hold it in hand until after B/R plays first land and make them discard it) is a really strong set of circumstances in B/R's favor that U/Bx can't really duplicate.

PirateKing
12-04-2016, 11:57 AM
Your post is offensive and void of any interesting argumentation, at least Medea shows interest beyond his own environment. And as far as cantrips are concerned, there's not a thing in the world they will do for you against an active DRS, if your slower and don't pack maindeck answers.

This thread is for the UBx Reanimator list. We'd be fine discussing the differences between the two decks, but people coming here asking specific BR Reanimator questions are better served by going to that specific thread. Now that they're both established, we need to a better job and keeping the discussions in their appropriate threads.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30840-Primer-BRx-Griselbrand-Reanimator

JPoJohnson
12-04-2016, 12:40 PM
This thread is for the UBx Reanimator list. We'd be fine discussing the differences between the two decks, but people coming here asking specific BR Reanimator questions are better served by going to that specific thread. Now that they're both established, we need to a better job and keeping the discussions in their appropriate threads.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30840-Primer-BRx-Griselbrand-Reanimator

I would imagine renaming this one to UBx would probably assist newer users in realizing there are different threads.

crowe_1
12-04-2016, 06:09 PM
BR has a higher chance of a turn one combo. That is important for getting under things like DRS, Chalice and Counterbalance. If there is a design-centric reason for BR putting up more results than U/B, my money is on this one with Miracles, Eldrazi, DRS (Shardless + Grixis) taking up a huge metagame portion. However I don't think the price difference in the two decks can be overstated. U/B costs over twice as much, and B/R stands on its own as a solid choice. B/R is also very competitive for its price compared to the field in general. This results in, perhaps, higher representation than U/B, which results in more top finishes. I haven't seen the starting numbers for U/B at any of these bigger tournaments, but if U/B isn't being played then obviously B/R will do better. Another poster also had a good point in saying that grave hate is low right now, but I'd also add that blue and FoW are at an all-time low so B/R is more able to just reanimate willy-nilly, whereas U/B is built more so to win through hate.

As for what U/B offers compared to B/R, it is better versus Combo (discard isn't great against Brainstorm), doesn't lose as much from being on the draw (FoW isn't required to counter Gitaxian Probe the way Chancellor is, for example), can more easily find sideboard answers due to Brainstorm and Ponder, and most importantly, can still come back if its initial seven fails to get the job done. I'd argue it mulligans better, too. Also while B/R goes off more consistently on turn one, U/B is still a turn one-two combo deck, and let's not forget that U/B effectively has access to all of the maindeck cards that B/R does but has never chosen to go that all-in. Pre-board, B/R is just mono-black with Lootings instead of Putrid Imp.

Overall I think U/B is the better deck, but it isn't strictly better since B/R offers other win cons like casting threats, Blood Moon, and winning with Tendrils. It's kind of like ANT vs TES, and it's good BR is officially a thing now.

Cpt-Qc
12-04-2016, 10:30 PM
I would imagine renaming this one to UBx would probably assist newer users in realizing there are different threads.

That seems appropriate since BR joined the "Established Decks".

sco0ter
12-08-2016, 06:10 PM
Just stumbled over the new Kaladesh cards and wonder what are your thoughts on Contingency Plan?

nyrambler
12-09-2016, 09:48 AM
Just stumbled over the new Kaladesh cards and wonder what are your thoughts on Contingency Plan?

Already was printed as Taigam's Scheming... nowhere near good enough (2 mana, no true card advantage)

DoorDie
12-10-2016, 10:33 PM
Already was printed as Taigam's Scheming... nowhere near good enough (2 mana, no true card advantage)

Pretty much correct, though we don't care so much about advantage so much as looting or filtering. Careful Study filters the hand and discards fatties at half cost.

TGCRequiem
12-11-2016, 01:36 PM
Hi everyone. I proxied this list up a while back, and "slowly" picked up all of the cards except the duals due to cost. Back at SCG Columbus I was able to trade into an Underground Sea and a Tropical Island which puts me close enough that I'd be willing to take it to an FNM either w/extra basics and/or shocks in place of the last two Underground Sea. Short story long here is since I wasn't going to take it to an FNM anytime soon I really haven't played it much and just mostly have kept playing Elves.

Well now that I have the ability I would like to try and give it a bit more play time. Are there any good recent articles about how to play/sideboard with this deck and how you approach specific matchups. I went through the primer thread a while back and felt like it was pretty out of date though there was a great article about how to Brainstorm which I found very useful. I know I'll have to put in reps, but I just want to have some basic idea of where to start so I'm not flopping around like a fish to start.

Thanks,

PirateKing
12-11-2016, 01:56 PM
I wrote a beginner's guide to card choice philosophy a while back.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator&p=911969&viewfull=1#post911969

Deck lists tend to be wrapped up in a whole lot of personal preference, so just giving you someone's 75 and expecting it to line up to your style is a recipe for failed expectations.
We're around if you have any specific questions. Welcome to the deck!

TGCRequiem
12-11-2016, 05:08 PM
I wrote a beginner's guide to card choice philosophy a while back.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator&p=911969&viewfull=1#post911969

Deck lists tend to be wrapped up in a whole lot of personal preference, so just giving you someone's 75 and expecting it to line up to your style is a recipe for failed expectations.
We're around if you have any specific questions. Welcome to the deck!

Oh I totally agree, I just need general guidelines from which to build off of. I appreciate it and will look through this. ALL of my Legacy prior to this has been with Elves. I think Elves is a great deck and it is extraordinarily fun, but I'd like to get a feel for the blue side of things as well. The problem is I've found I just don't quite know where/how to start with this deck. I won't go so far as to say I feel lost playing it, but it I definitely do not feel comfortable. I've played a bit with Goryo's Vengeance (the versions focused on reanimating Legends, not the Nourshing Shoal kind) and I was really kind of surprised how different this feels even from that.

Damaku
12-12-2016, 09:22 AM
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/16-07-15-reanimator/

This is my curent list.
I use 61 cards to include Blazing Archon in the main deck. Recently I started testing Collective Brutality instead of thoughtseize and I am extreamly pleased with the card.

I am not shure about some sideboard things like Chain and Echoing, I did not have the oppotunity to use them in the last 3 tournaments.

nyrambler
12-12-2016, 11:40 AM
This is where I am at right now. I am playing GP Louisville with the deck and will be tinkering around for the next 4 weeks to get the right list for the expected metagame (Grixis Delver, Miracles, Death and Taxes being the top 3)

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

3 Griselbrand
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Careful Study
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Dark Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
1 Show and Tell

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Aetherling
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Show and Tell
1 Coffin Purge

Venomous72
12-22-2016, 12:59 PM
3-0'd at Legacy night the other day with a pretty stock list, except I have 2x mainboard Show and Tell and took out 1 Thoughtseize and 1 Animate dead.

Decklist: Spook and Show! (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ub-reanimator-spook-and-show/)

I played against Deadguy Ale (2-1), Aluren (2-0) and Br Reanimator (2-0). So far I am 6-1 against Br Reanimator and I continue to believe that Ub Reanimator is the better build.

crowe_1
12-24-2016, 04:37 AM
Show and Tell has been used in the deck for ages, though you typically don't see two main anymore. People also used to run City of Traitors in the board to accommodate it and facilitate it turn one. Myself, I'm torn on S&T, and here's why:
- Three mana is a lot for this deck and sometimes S&T just sits in your hand unusable.
- Usually comes at the cost of disruption, which is perhaps Reanimator's biggest draw over other combo decks.
- Show and Tell gives the opponent the best permanent in their hands for free, which can be problematic sometimes when you don't have the option to annihilate them with Emrakul next turn.
- Here's the big one and it's unavoidable: Show and Tell has inherent disynergy with the reanimation strategy. Digging for a reanimation spell and discarding your creature with Careful Study only to draw a Show and Tell next turn feels pretty bad, even though discarding the creature is the best bet mathematically.

But there are big upsides to it:
- Mainboard answer to DRS.
- Gets around dedicated grave hate post-board (other than Containment Priest), blanking a bunch of the cards they're bringing in against you.
- More "live" combo cards in the deck.
- More blue cards in the deck for FoW.

I've personally always been "Reanimate or bust" and very rarely have trouble playing around hate, but there's been a large influx of BR Reanimator decks in my area lately and I'm anticipating having to deal with a large increase in post-board graveyard hate as a result. Seriously considering adding Show and Tells for the first time.

Deckerator
12-24-2016, 07:37 AM
How many would you add to the board? With or without city effects?

meffeo
12-24-2016, 08:31 AM
What's the point in using Aetherling? Which MU is dedicated for?

PirateKing
12-24-2016, 10:50 AM
What's the point in using Aetherling? Which MU is dedicated for?

Miracles really. Flickering itself against a Terminus. When 2/3s of the meta was Miracles it was good tech.

Venomous72
12-24-2016, 01:41 PM
Miracles really. Flickering itself against a Terminus. When 2/3s of the meta was Miracles it was good tech.

Yup. If you have a blue source or two up it is pretty much GG for Miracles.

crowe_1
12-24-2016, 02:53 PM
How many would you add to the board? With or without city effects?

I like Venemous' build above with two main and one side. Odds of it being in your hand with either a creature or a FoW are pretty high. Haven't tested much though; only goldfishing. I'm personally not a fan of City in the side because Show and Tell is practically the only card in our deck it could cast better than a basic land could. If one was to run the Cities, I'd think you'd want to go all-in on the four Show and Tells between main and side, however you wanted to split it. Once again, I have never legitimately tested Show so take what I say with a grain. Probably gonna pick up a few Show and Tell while they're cheap all the same.

nyrambler
12-28-2016, 12:42 PM
This is where I am at right now. I am playing GP Louisville with the deck and will be tinkering around for the next 4 weeks to get the right list for the expected metagame (Grixis Delver, Miracles, Death and Taxes being the top 3)

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

3 Griselbrand
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Careful Study
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal
1 Show and Tell

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Disfigure
1 Aetherling
1 Show and Tell
1 Blazing Archon
1 Duress
1 Coffin Purge

Made 3 changes from the above list so far... main deck cut the dark ritual for the 4th lotus petal (needing an extra blue source + beats Chalice on 1), cut the anti-DnT package (we're already losing, let's just win with Needles and Grave Titans) for a duress (miracles and delver) and Blazing Archon (Eldrazi can't beat it once it's in, unless they have exactly dismember + dismember or dismember + warping wail, also solid vs Sneak and Show)

Last week I played in a local Legacy event, 4 rounds... went 1-3.

Round 1: Dredge (1-2) - usually a good matchup, but game 1 he killed me on turn 2 on the play. Game 2, I put Elesh Norn into play on turn 2. Game 3, his Cabal Therapys ripped my hand apart and he was able to combo off. Generally, you want to just get Elesh Norn into play ASAP

Round 2: Grixis Delver (2-1) - forgot how this match went, or if it was even Grixis... but I won in 3.

Round 3: Aluren (1-2) - Similar to Shardless BUG but they have a combo finish instead of grinding with Jace and Tarmogoyf. Still a 4x DRS deck which is tough.

Round 4: Tezzerator (1-2) - good matchup and crushed him game 1, but games 2 and 3 he has Leyline of the Void. I was able to hard-cast an Elesh Norn for the first time ever (2x Lotus Petal for white) against his Thopter Foundry, but he found a Sword of the Meek and a Jace to end it.

RNGesus
01-04-2017, 01:48 PM
Channel Fireball just posted a three-part video series (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-reanimator-legacy/) on a testing with a UB reanimator list. Thoughts? Seems that reanimator can take g1 easily, but is shafted really hard by GY hate in g2 and g3 (he pretty much loses every g2)

KobeBryan
01-04-2017, 01:52 PM
Channel Fireball just posted a three-part video series (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-reanimator-legacy/) on a testing with a UB reanimator list. Thoughts? Seems that reanimator can take g1 easily, but is shafted really hard by GY hate in g2 and g3 (he pretty much loses every g2)

I'm starting to believe a transformational board is more beneficial. G2 and G3, is really a tough fight and you need to dig and dig and dig for answers.

Stryfo
01-04-2017, 02:31 PM
No offense to Jacob Wilson, I think he's a great player and one of my favorite contributors to the site, but he didn't sideboard very well, and didn't play the sideboarded games that well either (by his own admission). That said, I think his list was interesting, 4 chancellor 4 griselbrand main is something that I am not personally a fan of, but it probably makes game 1 against non-lands non-DnT decks a bit easier.

crowe_1
01-04-2017, 02:50 PM
He went 1-2, 2-1, and 2-0. TBH, it seemed like he made a lot of questionable decisions both in terms of play and deck design. The first match he played his Careful Study into Chalice in game two. Kept counterspells off Ponder rather than shuffling when there was a Leyline in play that he needed Echoing Truth to remove. Plus Chancellor is not great in U/B. He got shafted by Liliana a couple of times by his own admission because he doesn't run Grave Titan like most builds. Didn't counter the Green Sun's Zenith when he knew it was probably getting ScOoze. He's just starting with the deck I suppose but I found myself saying "that's wrong" a lot. Curious how he would do after some more experience with the deck. He is one of the best players in the world.

meffeo
01-04-2017, 03:45 PM
He went 1-2, 2-1, and 2-0. TBH, it seemed like he made a lot of questionable decisions both in terms of play and deck design. The first match he played his Careful Study into Chalice in game two. Kept counterspells off Ponder rather than shuffling when there was a Leyline in play that he needed Echoing Truth to remove. Plus Chancellor is not great in U/B. He got shafted by Liliana a couple of times by his own admission because he doesn't run Grave Titan like most builds. Didn't counter the Green Sun's Zenith when he knew it was probably getting ScOoze. He's just starting with the deck I suppose but I found myself saying "that's wrong" a lot. Curious how he would do after some more experience with the deck. He is one of the best players in the world.

He played very poorly. Why discard the two Entombs when the main plan was to bounce both Lotv via Echoing Truth? On top of that, he sided out S&T against a Chalice deck. List seems weak in comparison to the "stock" ones.

DoorDie
01-05-2017, 02:57 PM
He did ok for a newbie. ;)

Jacob is no doubt a great player, and his delver instincts showed in his interactions. Aside from the obvious punts he definitely undervalues Entomb and silver bullets. Less than 4 Griselbrand is silly? Well I think 8 Griselbrand is silly!

Chancellor is very playable in this deck though, and I do appreciate different people's interpretations of the archetype. It's also fairly comforting that even a well-cut pro can miss subtleties in our derpy Timmy deck. :)

Deckerator
01-05-2017, 05:13 PM
Does anyone has experiences with Reverent Silence? I wanna change my Golgari Charm and Echoing Truth out of the sideboard for 2x Reverent Silenve?
Do you think it is worth or shall i stay on Echoing Truth.

Cpt-Qc
01-05-2017, 06:21 PM
I like Venemous' build above with two main and one side. Odds of it being in your hand with either a creature or a FoW are pretty high. Haven't tested much though; only goldfishing. I'm personally not a fan of City in the side because Show and Tell is practically the only card in our deck it could cast better than a basic land could. If one was to run the Cities, I'd think you'd want to go all-in on the four Show and Tells between main and side, however you wanted to split it. Once again, I have never legitimately tested Show so take what I say with a grain. Probably gonna pick up a few Show and Tell while they're cheap all the same.

2 in the main and 1 in the side is what I play. As you said I usually either have a creature in hand with it or a brainstorm or a force so it's rarely dead.
Post board I often go from 7 to 8 reanimation targets so it becomes even less of a problem since you are definitely playing the long game.

In a meta with a lot of good matchups I would probably go back to 2 animate dead main instead but if your meta has tons of maindeck hate (read DRS/leyline) then it is a lifesaver.

crowe_1
01-09-2017, 09:29 AM
U/Bg placed 11th at the GP.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/9-32-decklists-2017-01-08

Runs four Chancellor and two Collective Brutality mainboard. No Thoughtseize, no Grave Titan, and only eight Reanimation spells mainboard. Also five basic lands and only one of each BUG dual, including USea.

I personally am not a big fan of Chancellor in U/B. Chancellor is consistently good for disruption specifically during turn one and quite often only on the play. Beyond that it's only a last-ditch reanimation target. But the U/B version doesn't Reanimate turn one enough to justify Chancellor's inclusion IMO. I find it especially puzzling since this list uses a lot of basics and only three Lotus Petals, which suggests that it's not focusing on the turn one combo where Chancellor shines.

I suppose it potentially slows DRS down one turn, but is that really worth losing those precious deck slots AND letting the opponent know what you're playing before the game even starts? Maybe, but I think not personally. I feel like if you really dislike DRS then Collective Brutality is fine, or Izzet Charm for that matter.

All that said, I guess you can't argue with results so maybe there's something to it. Having the Chancellors makes Careful Study and Collective Brutality much better. Maybe as a beater Chancellor's natural one-sided Thalia ability synergizes with Dazes and FoWs to make him especially hard to remove? Having to pay 2 extra for Daze instead of one is probably a big deal, and it would be difficult for decks to fight counter wars with the extra cost on their counterspells as well.

Thoughts?

meffeo
01-09-2017, 09:54 AM
I'm building the deck (4 Reanimate to go) so I'm not that expert with it, nonetheless, Chancellors seem not to be in their right shell. His manabase looks confusing to me and on the other hand I understand Collective Brutality as a broken discard effect + DRS destroyer.
I'm gonna certainly give it a try because CBs are really appealing.

crowe_1
01-09-2017, 10:11 AM
Collective Brutality does seem amazing in many situations, mostly for getting rid of DRS. Not all though, as seeing a Rest in Peace, Faerie Macabre or GD Cage in the opponent's hand feels bad compared to the one-mana Thoughtseize. On the play, Thoughtseize can snag DRS as well anyway. I guess the question is whether the free "bin a creature" and ability to kill problem creatures outweighs the extra mana (big deal when our curve is so low) and the inability to discard certain cards we are afraid of. B/R gets Dark Ritual and typically plays more reanimation targets so CB is a better fit there, and even then many don't run it...which I think is a mistake in that deck.

PirateKing
01-09-2017, 11:10 AM
Be careful talking about Collective Brutality as a DRS killer and a creature binner as if you can count on doing both all the time. Pitching the card is a cost to be paid, so unless you caught a tapped or :g:less DRS, you'll have a creature in the graveyard and Collective Brutality on the stack, which any smart opponent will make short work of with their not long for the world DRS.

GP list looks like a combination budget and dated version. Ashen Rider hasn't seen much play with the downfall of DTT Omnitell. Lots of basics with no real advantage to them as far as I can tell. I agree with other assessments regarding Chancellor, her best use is getting the T1 kill trough, but doesn't really have the list for it. I'd be great to get a report from him though, as others have said, results speak for themselves, so maybe we're looking at next level.

Ephemeron
01-09-2017, 11:50 AM
There was a boatload of Sneak & Show in the top 32, and probably the GP in general. In that regard, Ashen Rider seems like a perfectly cromulent sideboard card.

Deckerator
01-22-2017, 03:54 AM
Do you start playing fatal push ?

crowe_1
01-22-2017, 04:39 AM
Fast answer to DRS and Containment Priest. One mana vs two for Collective Brutality can be a big deal with this deck. Also instant speed is important vs. Priest.

To be frank though, while I'm sure there are worse cards to run, we never ran disfigure that I know of, so Fatal Push is probably a "no" in this deck. Awesome card however; love to be proven wrong.

Zooligan
01-22-2017, 09:40 AM
There was a boatload of Sneak & Show in the top 32, and probably the GP in general. In that regard, Ashen Rider seems like a perfectly cromulent sideboard card.

I had to go look up cromulent... #MrsHoover

Venomous72
01-22-2017, 10:29 AM
Do you start playing fatal push ?

I was thinking about it the other day as well but I think Brutality is probably the better option. Probably worth testing though!

Animal
01-24-2017, 02:28 AM
I am finally able to build UB Reanimator. I was pondering about the creatures that are reanimation targets and are supposed to be in mainboard and sideboard. What creature package have you been playing and why? How many creatures are the correct amount? I've seen most non-Chancellor lists run 7 targets, but I think that sounds a bit low. Here are my questions per creature:

Griselbrand - This is a 3-of in most lists. Why is it not played as 4-of? I understood it is the main reanimation target in most cases.

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Iona, Shield of Emeria - I would put these to mainboard, but some lists have been playing them in sideboard for some reason?

Chancellor of the Annex - To play or not to play. From 0 to 4 in mainboard. In addition to "slowing down your opponent and/or going for turn 1 reanimate", I would assume this is actually only good against storm decks. Thus sideboard 1-of is also an option. But Iona can shut down storm as well. I have access to 3 of these but I wonder if I should be playing any of em.

Archetype of Endurance - Have seen this in some lists in mainboard. Obviously does not win games by itself but reanimating Griselbrand and same turn going for this causes opponent not to be able to bounce (with Karakas) or destroy your creatures making you win. Should I run it?

Sire Of Insanity - Mostly run in BR lists, but seen it run also in some UB lists. I believe this is only good when you have turn 1 reanimate?

Tidespout Tyrant - Mainboard 1-of in most cases. I guess this is always in the deck because you can bounce all your opponent's threats and lands quite easily?

Grave Titan - Dodges Karakas and Liliana. Does this make the cut to mainboard or sideboard?

Inkwell Leviathan - It has shroud. I personally kinda like this card but I think it has the same problem as Grave Titan - does it make the cut?

Void Winnower - New guy, seen it at some sideboards. Can it see play?

Ashen Rider and Blazing Archon - Sideboard "must haves".

Did I miss anything? I guess my list will probably consist of 15 lands, 9 reanimation spells, 1 Show and Tell and 4 Lotus Petals. Rest of it is kinda stock what everyone else are running as well.

mistercakes
01-24-2017, 02:55 AM
i'd say just focus on the lists and see what you like the most. your questions come down to two things: deck is limited for space, and targets can be matchup specific. what's your local metagame like?

Animal
01-24-2017, 05:01 AM
i'd say just focus on the lists and see what you like the most. your questions come down to two things: deck is limited for space, and targets can be matchup specific. what's your local metagame like?
Local meta in weekly tournaments are just random. Sometimes there is High Tide, sometimes half the field is Dredge. You kinda cannot predict what will be on the tournament since people have multiple decks and they choose randomly what to play. But on bigger tournaments, most popular decks are miracles, delver variants and shardless bug. Someone has also made a note that in Finland storm is more popular than in rest of the Europe.

I guess I was mostly asking "What is your current creature list and why?"

DoorDie
01-24-2017, 08:25 AM
(fatty questions)

Griselbrand is often 3-of because in a deck with cantrips you end up with multiple copies WAY too often. The second copy does almost nothing save against DRS, but even then only Exhume does anything with 2 copies of the card. BR has 0 cantrips so they run the full playset, but UB Reanimator and you'll notice also Tin Fins only run 2-3 Griselbrand because Entomb gives us 4 more copies of every target. Having 4 copies actually interrupts your cantripping because you'll see another Griselbrand when instead you need reanimation or disruption.

I view Elesh Norn and Iona as non-negotiables... some players board in Iona which is acceptable because she doesn't get there versus multi-color decks and has some overlap with Elesh Norn as a silver bullet. I think sideboarding Elesh Norn is wrong though, given the free wins versus creature combo and her ability to pull you back from a losing position.

Chancellor can fit, but we're limited on space due to the blue infrastructure. Usually we don't need the extra disruption, but she certainly does work.

Tidespout Tyrant is an excellent catch-all and usually is maindeck. And you'll see one other target for racing/evasion, often Grave Titan but sometimes Inkwell.

I don't agree that Ashen Rider and Blazing Archon are sideboard must-haves. It's good to have silver bullets in the board, and for that reason Archon is a good sideboard card versus Eldrazi. But the only cards you "must" have in your board would be things to fight over or play around graveyard hate. Stuff like Abrupt Decay, Show and Tell, Thoughtseize, etc.

Void Winnower is strong for sure and interesting; I'll have to try that one. Another spicy one is Aetherling for Miracles, which is a legitimately tough matchup. We have enough blue support, and it's near impossible for them to win once resolved with U up.

Here's my fatty list:
3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan

I'm running mentors in the board, but when I'm not transformational here's my boarded fatties:
1 Aetherling
1 Blazing Archon

PirateKing
01-24-2017, 08:30 AM
I guess I was mostly asking "What is your current creature list and why?"

Most decks tend to run 7 for space reasons. 8 targets works fine as well, any more and you're really digging into premium space for the deck. I'd take a hard look at what you're not running for those extra creatures.

People run 3 Griselbrand because Surgical Extraction is an ever present threat, and having 4/7th of your targets nuked doesn't feel good. Additionally, since we're running 4 Entombs, effectively making our Griselbrand count 7, upping that to 8 has less of an impact that you might be thinking. Plus we have more room for silver bullets, which is the best part about playing this deck.

Elesh Norn is pretty much always going to be main, unless you have some seriously messed up 100% High Tide/Doomsday meta. Even if she's not wiping their board, she'll team up well with a second target to take a turn off an already short clock. Plays real nice with Hapless Researchers.

Iona is much more a meta call. For me she's bounced back and forth from main to side based on the decks I plan to face. For a while it was all 3 or 4 color decks that would still weasel their way to victory despite being hobbled by Iona. Lately I've seen a comeback of Karakas-less Miracles and new players with Burn & Dredge at me store, so she's back in my main.

I'd she away from Chancellor of the Annex in a traditional build. It takes up so much space for a game plan that demands the most narrow windows. BR lists have more access to fast mana, so it makes sense for them. For us I'd rather just have Daze.

For Archetype of Endurance, I know Stryfo is around here somewhere and he'll speak up for it, but I'm of the opinion that he's win-more. Yeah in a world of Karakas he pairs well with Griselbrand, but any deck running Karakas is also going to give you a difficult time landing just one creature, let alone two. I've always chosen my creatures as being good enough to stand unsupported. Beyond Entomb into Reanimate, we shouldn't be relying on 1-2 punches much.

Sire of Insanity for me was good when all the decks were 2 card DTT combo decks that couldn't survive with him in play. Since they're less prevalent, he got moved to the side, and most recently he's cut all together to make room for more applicable silver bullets. If your specific meta seems weak to him, then throw him in. He's good for faster all in decks that can reliable pull off T1 combos (why you see him in BR lists all the time. Also helps he's castable for them as well) or against 2 card combo decks.

Tidespout Tyrant is right up there with Elesh Norn as a shoe in for main board. He's our only answer to some matchups like Lands, while also being useful in almost any other matchup.

Grave Titan and Inkwell Leviathan are both what I consider big dumb beaters. They're nonlegendary, hard to kill and carry a big stick. I usually have one in the main and one in the side, depending on who I expect to face more often. Grave Titan dodges Edicts but also wins races against opposing Goyfs and Anglers. Additionally, and I don't think I can say this enough, 10 power isn't nothing. He's the only creature we can depend on for a 2 turn clock. Inkwell works better against the white decks armed with Swords to Plowshares. He's consistent but not unraceable, and with the printing of Council's Judgement, not totally immune either.

I haven't given much thought to Void Winnower. Iona fills a similar role, and evasion really decides it for me. Give it trample and maybe we'd talk.

Ashen Rider pairs with Show and Tell. I don't run the latter, so I don't run either. For removal, Tidespout Tyrant does it better for me.

Blazing Archon replaced Sire of Insanity in my side after the rise of Eldrazi players at my store. That tide has receded, but I haven't found a need to change him to something more effective. So for now he stays.

Some other fun-ofs I've used in the past are Keranos, God of Storms and Aetherling. Both are used to fight Miracles, each attacking on a different axis. Personally I don't get much benefit from dedicating so much space to that matchup, but they're something to consider as well.

My current suite of targets is
Main
3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan

Side
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

Karhumies
01-24-2017, 12:48 PM
Some historical targets:

Talking of fast clocks, Terastodon can put 18 attack on the table with the all-in strategy of destroying three of our own lands. This is the guy we used to run against decks with edict effects back in the day, and I still see him as a viable alternative to Grave Titan in ritual-less builds of Reanimator. Terrible choice against Terminus, though, which is probably the main reason why md Grave Titan is preferred. The "proper way" to use Terastodon is to Shallow Grave or Sneak Attack it onto the battlefield in the opponent's end step, receive the turn and swing 18 for lethal out of nowhere. Too cute to be reliable, sadly enough.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind is a master at racing fair creature-based decks with the combination of vigilance, lifelink, first strike and flying. He used to be very popular in burn and goblin metagames. If the opponent loses 2 life over the course of a game, the 6 attack is 1 turn faster than Blazing Archon. Archon has been recently preferred in this slot since Archon is better at stopping Eldrazi.

Platinum Emperion used to be a viable alternative versus burn, storm and non-white racing decks without decent spot removal. Lack of trample or flying, death to artifact hate and shuttind down our FoW alternative casting cost are some serious downsides. The upside is casting Reanimate and Thoughtseize without life loss, which puts the fun into the fun of. Sire of Insanity tends to be played in this slot nowadays. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed also occasionally sees play in this slot in storm / OmniTell heavy metas.

Empyrial Archangel used to be an alternative to Inkwell Leviathan which really stopped manland racing Standstill decks all by itself. Unless Moat is a thing in your meta, Inkwell is just better.

Jin-Gitaxias is occasionally played as "5th Griselbrand", but he's terrible against Karakas and StoP. I don't recommend him to anyone running less than 4 Griselbrands. Even though he is kind of pseudo Griselbrand and pseudo Sire of Insanity crammed into one, the body is too small to race almost anything.

It That Betrays is a cool creature which would really love to get Haste. Used to be a niche lockdown piece against sacrifice based infinite combos.

Woodfall Primus used to be played before Ashen Rider was printed. Ashen Rider gets to take out a creature and exiles; Primus has persist and therefore sticks better e.g. versus edict effects.

Trench Gorger is the ultimate deck thinner. Nothing to draw but business after it hits the board. The ultimate incarnation of "a stupid beater". Would really love Haste. Actually works much better in 100 card formats, because we simply don't run enough lands for a one turn kill in Legacy Reanimator. Grave Titan leaves the zombies behind, making it win the popularity contest.

These creatures used to be a lot more popular before Griselbrand was printed.

owerbart
01-25-2017, 08:05 AM
I agree on that mainboard, 3 gris, iona, elesh, tide, grave. Don't forget that tide works quite well as another legendary creature too.

A card that i had great success with it in the past is Keranos, God of Storms. Dodges plow, edicts, karakas, jace and liliana. Also can interact with your opponents creatures, while also being invulnerable to containment priest

Karhumies
01-25-2017, 06:03 PM
Some evaluation of the most popular fatties:

For many fatties, the problem is that they are good against fair decks and creature based MUs where racing is relevant, but not good against combo decks, especially relatively permanentless combos like solidarity/high tide, Omni-Tell and storm. E.g. Ashen Rider is great at stopping a non-flying creature based deck and racing them to death, but a 4 turn clock against a combo deck gives them way too much time to go off without additional disruption.

Some other fatties are good at beating combo decks but they race badly if opponent has any kind of board presence, e.g. Sire of Insanity sucks versus Tarmogoyf. Ruric Thar hurts us more than an Eldrazi or Death & Taxes opponent.

The important thing is to find a balance for the MD creatures, so that in every MU we hopefully have max. 1 dead/blank target, but preferably minimum 1 absolute hoser in the deck.

Griselbrand is the ultimate all-rounder. Draw 7 is so much card advantage that fair decks are pressed hard to cope. Draw 7 also lets us dig for countermagic vs combo. 7 attack with flying is a 3 turn clock, which puts a lot of pressure on the opponent. Lifelink makes Griselbrand relevant even against burn. Pithing Needle does not stop his racing. Karakas or Swords to Plowshares does not stop his draw 7. Stifleing the draw 7 combined with removal or a non-combat win condition (e.g. lightning bolt) is one of the very few problematic scenarios after Griselbrand hits the board. We are glad that Stifle is not as popular as it used to be.

Tidespout Tyrant, in my opinion the second most powerful md creature. Bounces creatures, Meekstones, Ensnaring Bridges, you name it. Not hit by Karakas. Pitches to FoW. Against storm, I typically choose Tyrant as my primary target over Iona because bouncing their lands wrecks them, whereas Iona on black can be bounced using blue, or they could go for 10+ goblin tokens the next turn and race the Iona.

The remaining slots are in my opinion open for debate based on the expected metagame.

Iona sucks against Eldrazi and Karakas. Especially sucks against Eldrazi running Karakas and Miracles running Karakas. Against monocolor decks, Iona typically hoses those on the spot - with the notable exclusion of Death & Taxes with their Aether Vial + Mangara/Flickerwisp, Karakas and Mother of Runes + flying blocker. Against most of the rest of the field, it's well-rounded enough to warrant MD spot. In Karakas metas or metas with decks running spot creature removal in 2+ colors in the same deck, I would consider Inkwell Leviathan into this slot due to the Shroud.

Elesh Norn sucks against non-creature combo decks. She also sucks against Karakas, especially Miracles running Karakas. Nevertheless, her play text is frequently a one-sided Damnation, and she can typically block and kill the few remaining survivors. Her biggest strength, however, is shutting down all small toughness creatures from here to eternity. This is devastating for weenie heavy decks such as Dredge, True Name BUG, Death & Taxes or Aluren until they have a response. Against Dredge, she pretty much wins the game on the spot, unless they can hard cast Dread Return for Angel of Despair/Ashen Rider or something similarly crazy. Against D&T, however, you will need to protect her with countermagic against Swords, and even then they can still just Karakas him. If non-creature combo decks (and Death & Taxes) are a big thing in your meta, an alternative creature in this slot is a fast animated Sire of Insanity which can completely hose those decks. Watch out for D&T Swords, though.

So far, we probably have 3-1-1-1 with 5 legendaries. 1-5 creatures to go. The next 1-2 creatures should probably be nonlegendaries for Karakas, and preferably resilient to spot creature removal. Since we run a bunch of digging effects with Brainstorm, Ponder and Careful Study instead of just Faithless Looting in the Br build, we tend to use only 7-8 fatties + 4 Entomb instead of the 10-12 fatties + 4 Entomb in the Br builds.

The most popular option for next guy seems to be Grave Titan. Makes a bunch of Zombies to trade/chump/race, and especially the blocking can disrupt the opponent's creature based clock. Immune to Karakas, great at racing, pseudo immune to spot removal, can trade with any non-indestructible big guy they could possibly have with Deathtouch. Inkwell Leviathan is an alternative because it's even more immune to spot removal. But, Grave Titan races better than Inkwell if it's not removed immediately. Out of these two, Grave Titan is much better vs storm but Inkwell is much better vs Lands with their Tabernacle and Maze of Ith. I would make the choice based on which of these you I expect to see more in the metagame. Almost nobody plays Lands in my meta, so I tend to go for the Grave Titan.

If you want more than 7 fatties, there is a world of options: 1-4x Chancellor of the Annex? Inkwell Leviathan? Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Blazing Archon? 4th Griselbrand? 2nd Iona? 2nd Tidespout Tyrant? Archetype of Endurance? Sire of Insanity? In my opinion, this is a meta call without an objective answer. Personally, in the current metagame, I would probably go for the 2nd Tidespout Tyrant even though this means -1 toolbox slot for variety. It's simply more useful in more MUs than any of the other options. I would play the more specific / niche options like Blazing Archon and Sire of Insanity from the SB. However, I can definitely understand the reasoning for running an additional 1of "generally good target" such as Inkwell Leviathan or Sphinx of the Steel Wind ( Sphinx is "4th Griselbrand" with immunity to Karakas and not exiled when Griselbrand gets Surgicaled out) in this slot over the 2nd Tyrant.

Second discussion topic: Chancellor of the Annex. Currently, my opinion is to have them in the deck instead of Daze when on the draw in g2/g3 when the opponent has boarded in t1 hate cards, such as Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb. I recommend trying this strategy out if you haven't yet. The problem is finding enough SB space to run them.

Third discussion topic: Children of Korlis. My personal opinion is that any Reanimator build can feasibly run 1of Children of Korlis MD without running a MD Emrakul or MD Tendrils of Agony. Tendrils and Emrakul I consider to be win more or slots wasted.

Children is of course bonkers with Griselbrand, allowing us to draw 7 multiple times, typically leading to 2-4 additional fatty reanimations before the combo turn is finished and gaining probably around 30 life extra in the process. But personally, I argue that it's not a dead card without Griselbrand, supposing that you have the mana to actually cast it. Children can offset the Reanimate life loss even when not going for Griselbrand. It can also pose surprising problems to storm because the tendrils copies resolve one at a time, allowing us to sac Children in the middle. Against most creature based decks, Children acts us a Fog unless they hit for lethal, which can buy us an extra turn or save enough life to cast Reanimate next turn without dying. Against Dredge, Children sac removes the Bridges from their gy. Against Burn, Children either sucks a burn spell or it can offset the life loss under Eidolon of the Great Revel for one turn. In many other MUs, e.g. against Omni-Tell, a standalone Children is pretty much a dead card, though.

However, Bu builds do not run 4x Unmask, 4x Dark Ritual, 3-4x Animate Dead and 0-2x Chrome Mox, which in my opinion allow the Br build to go completely batshit crazy with Children.

The question then becomes: is running 1of Children worth splashing a 1of Tundra and/or Scrubland into our manabase and removing the currently weakest card in our MD (and what is the weakest card in our MD?)? Because relying completely on 4x Lotus Petal, 4x Reanimate and 4x Exhume to get him onto the board is risky.

DoorDie
01-26-2017, 03:23 AM
Good discussion so far. Hopefully some of this writing will make its way into a future primer. We could use a reboot.

And I like the historical references, Karhumies. It's good to see the old hits and possibly revisit their viability.

I'll actually toss in a different opinion regarding Chancellor: I think she'd play very well with Daze. Yes you'll have a ton of disruptive overlap, but the "Chancellor shield" can be easily broken even in multiples with a single brainstorm (followed by surgical postboard). By playing both you're taxing their mana incredibly on the very early turns, and the convenience of the Chancellor being a passable reanimation target allows for a very all-in UB build. So Daze wouldn't necessarily be my choice to cut for Chancellor of the Annex if I were to play it.

That said, I'm not personally a huge fan of Chancellor because UB is built to grind. Though passable, she's obviously very subpar compared to our other targets. Really we should be fighting to reanimate something the opponent flat-out can't deal with on T3-T4 as opposed to reanimating something on-the-spot T1-T2. That's just how I've preferred to play it, but I'm not opposed to trying something more fast and gambly with Chancellor.

So, Children of Korlis is an interesting suggestion. Tin Fins has taught us how a virtually unplayable 1-drop from Time Spiral can make an arguably broken win-condition even more degenerate. And although it has utility against burn and some other combo decks, I think the main concern has to be why we want to include it. It's a bit like the "pitches to Force" argument; thousands of cards pitch to Force of Will. A card's side utility in the deck never makes it maindeck-worthy.

Really I think the goal of Children has to be utilizing it on your combo turn. Specifically, you want to hit Children or Entomb off Griselbrand's draw 7 and be able to cast or reanimate it immediately. That scores 7-14 more cards depending on the game state without having to do something awkward like pass the turn because you're out of mana. This makes Children main-deckable in my view.

The main similarity I see between BR builds that run Children (which, as I've seen most do not) and Tin Fins is the fast mana, as noted by Karhumies. Petals and Rituals mean a few scenarios could arise: a) you go off with only fast mana, leaving a free land drop to hardcast Children, b) you go off and are able to chain rituals to entomb/reanimate again, or c) you find a Lotus Petal to hardcast Children. UB without rituals can pretty much only accomplish (c) with sparse consistency, which means that Children won't be that great most of the time. Yes, there will be scenarios where on T3 or T4 you've reanimated Griselbrand and still have an untapped land or unused land drop, but my impression without testing is that you'll most often just have to pass turn without landing the Children. (As said, I haven't tested so I could be wrong on this.) If you have to pass the turn without landing the Children to stabilize and/or draw more cards, then I don't see the maindeck benefit of having them.

Another possibility is to wait to draw until your next turn, but too often I'm forced to draw immediately because the opponent has Swords/Karakas/Liliana/etc. or threatens to combo on their own turn. Children needs to be viable under pressure, otherwise it's just win-more in my opinion.

There's another difference with Tin Fins and Reanimator in general, and that of course is hasty reanimation. Because they can get in a hit with Griselbrand the turn they combo, that's 7 more cards they get to see by default (barring something like a Baleful Strix). Sometimes they don't need it, but sometimes they certainly do. And drawing that extra 7 means that Children gains even more life when sacrificed... so their combo is MUCH more suited to focusing on that interaction. That with the fast mana greatly increases the odds they can sacrifice Children and draw the whole damn deck.

So in a build with the full set of petals/rituals and chrome mox + chancellor for white, Children would be good maindeck. With only petals for acceleration, I think Children would be actively bad.

PirateKing
01-26-2017, 07:53 AM
Good discussion so far. Hopefully some of this writing will make its way into a future primer. We could use a reboot.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator&p=911969&viewfull=1#post911969

This got buried in the middle of the thread, but it's more updated than the front page.

PirateKing
01-26-2017, 12:20 PM
With regards to Children of Korlis, while we talk about "combo turn" and the like, we're not a real combo deck. For those kind of decks, once they get going, they can't stop. There is no measure of overextending with combo decks. They can't help but lean in.

Reanimator on the other hand is very, very capable of overextending. I can trace back a number of my loses from trying to jam a second creature down and paying the price for it. Children seems like it will only enable that temptation so much more. What's the scenario that we're looking at? You get a early Griselbrand out, probably burn through a Force to get there, or maybe your opponent seems a little less than threatened by it. Are you going to pay life right then to try and find either the mana or the Children or both to play that same turn? Why? What are we looking for? A second creature shouldn't be necessary. We can draw in response to find Force, so digging to find more ways to dig to find Force seems so loopy and unnecessary. If they don't challenge you on the stack or on their own turn, why do anything but hit them in the face until they die?

If the argument is that Children help you dig for that one card you're looking for, what cards are you taking out to make room for Children?

It makes sense in TinFins, but for a 1 drop that sacs, Hapless Researcher is the better Reanimator choice I think.

Tassadar
01-30-2017, 02:04 AM
Inkwell Leviathan - It has shroud. I personally kinda like this card but I think it has the same problem as Grave Titan - does it make the cut?



It is a great card against DnT which cannot be Swords to Plowshared.

DoorDie
01-30-2017, 02:13 AM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator&p=911969&viewfull=1#post911969

This got buried in the middle of the thread, but it's more updated than the front page.

Looks like a good start to me. Have we considered starting a new thread? I'm happy to help wherever.

Venomous72
01-30-2017, 12:40 PM
Thoughts on Collective Brutality as a 3x of in the main?

Our meta is heavy with DRS so I am thinking a split of 2x Thoughtseize and 3x CB would be pretty good for game one.

I am also going to be trying a full 4x Show and Tell in the side along with 3x Pithing Needle. Needle has been so relevant I am thinking of experimenting with some number in the main as well. I just don't really want a target for Abrupt Decay. I think game 2 it will be much better since most decks will side out decay.

EDIT: I realize this was being discussed last page, sorry about that. Wasn't sure if people were running this in the main in the UB lists or not.

Venomous72
02-04-2017, 01:18 PM
Thoughts on UB Reanimator for Vegas? I am up in the air between UB, RB, or BUG Delver.

Do you think UB can fight through the hate with some Collective Brutality and Show and Tell? Or is it just too slow?

jimmythegreek
02-04-2017, 01:54 PM
Thoughts on UB Reanimator for Vegas? I am up in the air between UB, RB, or BUG Delver.

Do you think UB can fight through the hate with some Collective Brutality and Show and Tell? Or is it just too slow?

You know the format is fucked when we're questioning whether u/b reanimator is too slow.

Venomous72
02-04-2017, 03:03 PM
You know the format is fucked when we're questioning whether u/b reanimator is too slow.

Lol yep. I know BR is about a turn faster but I lose to myself all the time with that deck.

DXpt
02-04-2017, 05:44 PM
Thoughts on UB Reanimator for Vegas? I am up in the air between UB, RB, or BUG Delver.


Taking reanimator right now is suicide. Almost everyone is running 4 Surgical Extractions in sideboard. I would honestly stay away from both versions for a while, otherwise be prepared to be severely frustrated. Would much rather play delver and beat on those who will be playing reanimator since it is a free win for you. With FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and Surgical Extraction, you will win every game post sideboard.

LarsLeif
02-06-2017, 10:18 AM
Almost everyone is running 4 Surgical Extractions in sideboard.

What??? :p Since when is this true?

Whitefaces
02-06-2017, 10:23 AM
What??? :p Since when is this true?

It's a slight overstatement, but people are definitely ready for Griselbro.

LarsLeif
02-06-2017, 10:28 AM
Sure, but 4 Surgical is a lot more than anyone reasonably plays.

PirateKing
02-06-2017, 10:32 AM
BR Reanimator spiked in power and so now people are actively dedicating sideboard slots to it. We'll suffer as a result. It's a common story; when Show and Tell based decks were hot, Containment Priests and rogue Ashen Riders became uncomfortable common. Sadly we're rarely hated out directly, rather we're highly susceptible to collateral hate that's effective against us.

Venomous72
02-06-2017, 10:43 AM
BR Reanimator spiked in power and so now people are actively dedicating sideboard slots to it. We'll suffer as a result. It's a common story; when Show and Tell based decks were hot, Containment Priests and rogue Ashen Riders became uncomfortable common. Sadly we're rarely hated out directly, rather we're highly susceptible to collateral hate that's effective against us.

Can we just start running more Show and Tells mainboard to make up for this? It makes us just slightly slower but it gets around all the Deathrites running around in game 1. I have ran 2 in the main and 2 in the side and it works well.

CabalTherapy
02-06-2017, 10:43 AM
You know the format is fucked when we're questioning whether u/b reanimator is too slow.

That has nothing to do with the format. It's about the meta. One cannot interchange these terms. Cheap graveyard removal go back to mtg's early sets and Surgical is not the
newest card either. It was always easy to hate out Reanimator but nowadays you have better reasons to do it.

PirateKing
02-06-2017, 10:57 AM
Can we just start running more Show and Tells mainboard to make up for this? It makes us just slightly slower but it gets around all the Deathrites running around in game 1. I have ran 2 in the main and 2 in the side and it works well.

You could do that. I'm still of the opinion that Show and Tell asks us to do too much. Ours is a 2-card combo, except we're running 10 reanimation effects along with a myriad of ways to find creatures and get them into the yard. If you suddenly cut that down to 4 Show and Tells and then requiring the creature to stay in your hand, it's just a heavy ask on the deck. If I was really wanting to lean on Show and Tell, I'd run Sneak and Show (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show).

But honestly I'm all for the success of Reanimator in any form. Good luck!

DoorDie
02-08-2017, 02:05 PM
If Surgical Extraction is the most played sideboard hate that gets us (and I think it is), then I'd be maindecking a playset of Thoughtseize. Card's super disruptive while still operating as a combo piece. It does bring tension to your life total with Reanimate, so keep that in mind.

Personally I've moved onto fair decks due to my poor results at GP Louisville and the hate all over the meta. :laugh:

DXpt
02-09-2017, 03:26 AM
If Surgical Extraction is the most played sideboard hate that gets us (and I think it is), then I'd be maindecking a playset of Thoughtseize. Card's super disruptive while still operating as a combo piece.

Then again, BR Reanimator plays 4 Thoughtseize maindeck together with 4 Unmask. and post board games against blue decks with multiple Extractions in their sideboard are basically unwinnable.

Damaku
02-09-2017, 12:16 PM
Show and Tell has become my best friend in the curent sideboard meta.

CabalTherapy
02-09-2017, 12:20 PM
Show and Tell has become my best friend in the curent sideboard meta.

The thing is that there is no competitive reason to play this deck over a classic SnT-based one such as Omnisneak or SneakShow at the moment. That's why I put all
the Brands and Reanimates in the binder; sad time.

DoorDie
02-09-2017, 02:43 PM
Then again, BR Reanimator plays 4 Thoughtseize maindeck together with 4 Unmask. and post board games against blue decks with multiple Extractions in their sideboard are basically unwinnable.

BR doesn't have Force/Daze or cantrips, so not only are they more glass cannon in their draws but they can't stop a topdecked second Surgical or Snapcaster. We can. So while I'm not excited to start jamming Reanimator again, I don't think the field is unplayable for us. IMHO a field full of Leylines or RIP are much, much worse. I have seen a fair number of Leylines though.

Another hedge you can make vs Surgical is a 1-of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Guy still wins games.

Regarding Show and Tell, I have mixed feelings. My core thought is precisely what PirateKing said: its gameplan is at odds with ours. We want to cheat out of the graveyard, but Show and Tell requires it to be in hand. Major nonbo. That said, if you bump up your fatty density and run a significant amount of discard, Show and Tell can certainly get there. We're not a 4-of S&T deck, but 2-3 is what people usually run. Kind of makes me want to go grixis and try out a Burning Wish build.

crowe_1
02-10-2017, 06:38 PM
I have been on the "no S&T" train for a long time but after trying it I have to say it works well and the times it's actually a dead card are pretty minimal between Brainstorming it away, casting it, or pitching it to Force. But it does very occasionally happen that you've discarded your creature and then draw Show and Tell. Not that often though. To me you're not usually wanting to discard a creature anyway unless you actually have a Reanimate in hand.

Sometimes, too, you can cast Show and Tell to draw out a counterspell when you have Entomb + Reanimate in hand, or try Show and Tell first with creature + Study in hand and THEN discard your creature to Reanimate it. It's useful more often than not and, to me, blanking all hate other than Containment Priest is worth the very occasional nonsynergistic draw. At least in a field full of DRS.

Joe Eigo
02-22-2017, 07:41 AM
Hey guys, why did not anyone think about connecting the advantages of both Reanimator worlds (BR=Speed UB=consistency) yet? Any open minded people here ? ;-)
As a start i would simply take a BR list and throw in 4 Brainstorm. Brainstorm is similar to Ancestral in Reanimator, since you will always have cards you do not need in your hand (redundant creatures/reanimates/lands...). Adding cantrips (ponder beeing the next candidate to fit in) also improves on mulligans, which RB is weaker than UB lists. You will still have the power of RB variants Ritualing all stuff out on Turn 1 etc.. I'd say Force of Will is not really supportable in this (at least not as a 4 of) but Unmask has proven its power, so no big problem. Careful Study will obv. replace Looting. Loosing flashback hurts a little though. Another gainer is that Show and Tell suddenly becomes a SB option without hurting the mana.

A rough sketch would look like this. The creature choice i'll let to your personal (metagame) taste. (If you ask me, Elesh sits on the bench and i don't like drawing multiple Chancellors):

4 Griselbrand
3-4 Chancellor of the Annex
0-1 Iona
1 Tidespout Tyrant
0-1 Grave Titan
0-1 Sire
0-1 Elesh
10

4 Careful Study / 4 Entomb
4 Exhume / 4 Reanimate / 1 Animate Dead
4 Unmask / 2 Thoughtseize / 1 Collective Brutality
4 Brainstorm
28

4 Lotus Petal / 4 Dark Ritual
8

4 Underground Sea
8 Fetch
1 Island
1 Swamp
14

I absolutely want some number of ponders here. It's too good to ignore. But i'll leave it for the moment as it is to let you think about the idea. I'll def try this type on next weeks local legacy. Have fun.

DoorDie
02-22-2017, 08:23 AM
...

Toss in 4x Shallow Grave, Children and Emrakul, and you've got the same deck people came up with in the Tin Fins thread. Check it out:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=992293&viewfull=1#post992293

Joe Eigo
02-22-2017, 09:06 AM
Toss in 4x Shallow Grave, Children and Emrakul, and you've got the same deck people came up with in the Tin Fins thread. Check it out:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=992293&viewfull=1#post992293

Yeah thanks man. Just saw that list after my post. It looks very similar but is actually more of a hybrid which tries to do different things at once and is also much more dependent on Grisel. The intent was to stay more traditional. The Tin Fins decks looses some consistency with potential "dead" draws in Emrakul and Children and includes some weaker synergy in Shallow Grave and creatures that don't do too well with it (Chancellor and Elesh). Interesting approach though.

PirateKing
02-22-2017, 10:46 AM
Here is my assessment of the various Griselbrand based Reanimator decks. These decks weight the different functions of the Demon uniquely, which should help guide the rest of your deck building to be focused and always with a clear plan forward.

Tinfins sees "Pay 7 life: Draw 7 cards" and goes nuts from there. The creature part is just a requirement for the supporting cards. If it was an Enchantment, they'd just be using Academy Rector. It makes no difference to them. They've specialized at using the draw engine to win them the game, the combat step can be at times just a convenient way to lower the storm count needed. They're combo with a big ol' capitol C.
BR Reanimator sees a 7/7 Flying Lifelink the can cheat into play, the sooner the better. The draw 7 isn't really a crucial component, helpful in restocking for a second go around in the face of a Swords to Plowshares, but on the same terms as being a creature is to Tinfins. In a world where fast wins, they'll be the best, but their answers are all Sorceries, so their "draw 7 in response" options are lacking.
BU Reanimator (hate this name, we're REANIMATOR god damn it) sees all parts of the card. Our win condition is through the combat step, but we have Force of Will to draw into, so there is a persistent potential use for the draw 7. We can draw up to reload in the same case as BR Reanimator, but we also have responses come our opponent's turn.
This logic makes me apprehensive of the casual dismissal of Force of Will in a blue Reanimator build. Sure BR has demonstrated it isn't required to win, but they're minmaxing with stuff like Simian Spirit Guide into Faithless Looting to ensure they're the best at what they're doing. If we're looking at Brainstorm and especially Ponder, we're saying that we're not trying our hardest at that T1 kill, and if so, then what are we doing? If the argument is for an extra strong T2 kill, then our best cards for this are stuff like Force of Will.

Joe Eigo
02-22-2017, 11:49 AM
Here is my assessment of the various Griselbrand based Reanimator decks. These decks weight the different functions of the Demon uniquely, which should help guide the rest of your deck building to be focused and always with a clear plan forward.

Tinfins sees "Pay 7 life: Draw 7 cards" and goes nuts from there. The creature part is just a requirement for the supporting cards. If it was an Enchantment, they'd just be using Academy Rector. It makes no difference to them. They've specialized at using the draw engine to win them the game, the combat step can be at times just a convenient way to lower the storm count needed. They're combo with a big ol' capitol C.
BR Reanimator sees a 7/7 Flying Lifelink the can cheat into play, the sooner the better. The draw 7 isn't really a crucial component, helpful in restocking for a second go around in the face of a Swords to Plowshares, but on the same terms as being a creature is to Tinfins. In a world where fast wins, they'll be the best, but their answers are all Sorceries, so their "draw 7 in response" options are lacking.
BU Reanimator (hate this name, we're REANIMATOR god damn it) sees all parts of the card. Our win condition is through the combat step, but we have Force of Will to draw into, so there is a persistent potential use for the draw 7. We can draw up to reload in the same case as BR Reanimator, but we also have responses come our opponent's turn.
This logic makes me apprehensive of the casual dismissal of Force of Will in a blue Reanimator build. Sure BR has demonstrated it isn't required to win, but they're minmaxing with stuff like Simian Spirit Guide into Faithless Looting to ensure they're the best at what they're doing. If we're looking at Brainstorm and especially Ponder, we're saying that we're not trying our hardest at that T1 kill, and if so, then what are we doing? If the argument is for an extra strong T2 kill, then our best cards for this are stuff like Force of Will.

That is a very limited view if you ask me. Sorry, no offense. From my perspective the UB list i posted is more of a BR variant with nearly the same speed, hence i would say it has a very minor impact on your T1's compared to classic RB. Brainstorm is an excellent card for combo. Ask Tin Fins Players how nuts it is to Petal/Brainstorm into Ritual. It finds missing pieces where normal BR has as only option its regular draw phase. It can make your mediocre draws much better and can setup a much better T2 with it. Or hide cards from discard. After boarding you can find your antihate and shuffling away unwanted cards. Nothing new to tell here. We all know Brainstorms power. If RB always could go T1 Reanimate i would never consider this as an option. But thats just not the case. Brainstorms helps especially in those situations where you're hands are just not explosive enough. Or help recover from opponents disruption.
Regular RB plays 11-12 Animate spells which is only done because there is just no better option. Brainstorm can turn into any card you just need right now. So dropping at least some Animates seems fine to me without having any overall effect on the decks explosiveness.

Regarding SSG: That card is really not played in many RB builds. Chrome Mox is a much more flexible option and of course works as well for the UB approach.

Thinking about this maybe this deck would fit better into the RB thread...:confused:

PirateKing
02-22-2017, 11:58 AM
Perhaps what your describing is more of a RBu build rather than a UBr build. Our plan since his inclusion has been to get Griselbrand and then draw into ways to protect him until we win. Drawing into Unmask or Thoughtseize just won't cover the same bases.

Claymore
02-22-2017, 12:04 PM
So all of this theory crafting and you're basically:

BR Reanimator but:

-4 Faithless Looting
-3 Animate Dead
-1 Thoughtseize

+4 Careful Study
+4 Brainstorm

Reference - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14764&d=288882&f=LE

Really depends on the sideboard and what you're trying to do (Show and Tell transformation). I think this is more BR Reanimator thread then.

DoorDie
02-22-2017, 01:33 PM
...Regular RB plays 11-12 Animate spells which is only done because there is just no better option. ...

I'd like to dispel this notion immediately. In its history, winning builds of UB Reanimator have ran 11-12 copies of their pieces. I'm too lazy to dig it up right now, but I recall reading on this forum around the Mental Misstep period that someone doing a lot of statistics and testing decided that 11/11/11 bin/fattie/reanimation split was ideal (and 3 Brainstorm). Entomb would count for both bin and fattie in that split.

The point is that extra redundancy is a gift in combo. What other deck has access to more than two playsets of all its pieces? None that come immediately to my mind. Typically 8x is enough to build around, but if you're trying to T1 combo and open with the nuts then at 8 you only have a 65% chance of opening any one piece. 12 ratchets it up to 80%, but obviously at the cost of getting flooded on that particular piece more often.

The build strategies are getting a bit incestuous, (EDIT) but I guess we can wait for something to post results before worrying about which thread it belongs in.

Kobra_D
02-22-2017, 05:31 PM
What @PirateKing was getting at I think is just how the rest of the deck shapes up around our fatties as opposed to say the color of our mana base. Classically, UB is trying to win on a later turn with the guarantee that if anything goes wrong there will be counter spells and draw spells to smooth out the mid to late game.

@JoeEigo, you're playing underground seas with more of a RB mentality, their cannot be a mid-late game. T1 griselbrand means the game better be over by T4. You're list does help dig a little with brainstorm but it doesn't provide the force back up or the other draw spells like the "typical" UB list.

I'm trying to expand my legacy collection more and so I have been bouncing between the different reanimator threads to see what's going on, and whenever I read the RB or UB variants, I'm not simply thinking about islands vs. mountains. I thinking about the slower win on T6 with force or the faster win on T4 and hope thoughtseize catches their 1 of swords.

As for TinFins, I wholeheartedly (and playfully) disagree. The primary win IS the combat step... on turn 1... Attacking for 22 with the Griz and big momma Emmy.... I'm a degenerate, I know.

Joe Eigo
02-23-2017, 07:13 AM
I'd like to dispel this notion immediately. In its history, winning builds of UB Reanimator have ran 11-12 copies of their pieces. I'm too lazy to dig it up right now, but I recall reading on this forum around the Mental Misstep period that someone doing a lot of statistics and testing decided that 11/11/11 bin/fattie/reanimation split was ideal (and 3 Brainstorm). Entomb would count for both bin and fattie in that split.

The point is that extra redundancy is a gift in combo. What other deck has access to more than two playsets of all its pieces? None that come immediately to my mind. Typically 8x is enough to build around, but if you're trying to T1 combo and open with the nuts then at 8 you only have a 65% chance of opening any one piece. 12 ratchets it up to 80%, but obviously at the cost of getting flooded on that particular piece more often.


Didn't know that statistics but it sounds very right. Well i will not deny that your T1 rate will be weakened at all. But in exchange you just get the best blue legacy card (and other strong blue options). Magic is also much about play style and as a classic reanimator, tin fins and general blue mage i really appreciate some control over my draws. That's why i do not play belcher any more. You could say then just move on to classic reanimator but my impressions is that RB outpowers UB atm so why not try to modify BR to fit the personal style.


So all of this theory crafting and you're basically:

BR Reanimator but:

-4 Faithless Looting
-3 Animate Dead
-1 Thoughtseize

+4 Careful Study
+4 Brainstorm

Reference - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14764&d=288882&f=LE

Really depends on the sideboard and what you're trying to do (Show and Tell transformation). I think this is more BR Reanimator thread then.

You forgot the Useas. :-P Yeah basically its like that. But i wanted to keep it simple at the start and this is not like a final deck list or something. Maybe someone likes the idea so i wanted to share it. If not i am fine with that. :-)

A little off topic: The naming thing reminds me of the Dark Bant list from Duke, which ended in a new thread here but is basically Bant minus Stoneforge package and swords. Event "classic" Bant decks itself differ quite a lot especially if GSZ toolbox is used.

PirateKing
02-23-2017, 07:47 AM
What is telling from your list Joe is the need for 3-4 Chancellor of the Annex taking up space. If you're not aiming for a super fast T1 kill, then what are they doing here? Telegraphing an important early turn only to better sculpt your hand with Brainstorm doesn't seems efficient. If you wanted a high-speed-low-drag Reanimator list with blue in it, I'd take your list and replace the Unmask with Force of Will and play with some of the nonblue cards like Dark Ritual and Collective Brutality to make sure I have enough to support the Froced T1 in case Chancellor doesn't show up.

Joe Eigo
02-23-2017, 08:21 AM
What is telling from your list Joe is the need for 3-4 Chancellor of the Annex taking up space. If you're not aiming for a super fast T1 kill, then what are they doing here? Telegraphing an important early turn only to better sculpt your hand with Brainstorm doesn't seems efficient. If you wanted a high-speed-low-drag Reanimator list with blue in it, I'd take your list and replace the Unmask with Force of Will and play with some of the nonblue cards like Dark Ritual and Collective Brutality to make sure I have enough to support the Froced T1 in case Chancellor doesn't show up.
You got it wrong. I am still aiming at a super fast T1. I mean its currently just 4 cards different then RB. Most of the times there is no difference in starting hands compared to RB. I can not give you statistics on that. Brainstorms (and evtl. some ponders) should in theory strenghten your not so broken starting hands. And especially after boarding your T1 kills will not be that efficient anymore when fighting through hate. Which is a general problem Reanimator has isn't it ? Cantrips and easy access on SnT can help a lot on that too.

Regarding Chancellor i like it especially in a combo heavy meta (last time i played 2 of 5 games vs storm in local tourny). A 5/6 non-legend Thalia seems good enough to play at least one copy of. So everything between 1 and 4 seems possible. Well at least its good to know there is potential for making some more space in the deck.

PirateKing
02-23-2017, 09:18 AM
Regarding Chancellor, if you're playing it for the Leyline effect, you're going to want 4 for opening hand probabilities. As soon as you start talking about it as a 1 of, now we're open to direct comparisons to all our other creatures, where I find her very lacking. She doesn't solve any problems we have and offers a turn slower clock than I expect out of my straight beater creatures. 1 of is an Entomb target, and Entombing for a Chancellor? I got to imagine you've have a few Surgicals thrown your way before you're Entombing for Chancellor.

So look, it seems our differences really line up at Unmask versus Force of Will. In a deck without blue, Unmask will do well. I like it in BR. But you're seriously hobbling yourself by not including Force of Will in this deck.

PirateKing
02-23-2017, 01:16 PM
Someone PM'd me asking for my decklist, but I ain't no coward, I'll post it public!

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher
2 Izzet Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Darkblast

DoorDie
02-24-2017, 12:47 AM
So look, it seems our differences really line up at Unmask versus Force of Will. In a deck without blue, Unmask will do well. I like it in BR. But you're seriously hobbling yourself by not including Force of Will in this deck.

I agree with this. Also, if I don't have Ponder then I want a full 11-12 reanimation spells and possibly 1-2 more targets. Careful Study is no substitute for a real cantrip, and that's another major difference that makes UB more consistent than BR.

Cpt-Qc
02-24-2017, 01:40 AM
I need some help...I've been pondering over this for a few days. I want to try 3xCB main so I have to shake up my list a bit and I'm not sure where I should go from there.
I run the usual package of 10 reanimation, 7 targets, nothing fancy.

What would you suggest between these blue flex slots:
1) 3 Daze, 1 Misdirection, 2 Ponder (current list)
2) 3 Daze, 3 Hapless Reseacher
3) 3 Ponder, 3 Hapless Reseacher
4) 2 Ponder, 1 Misdirection, 3 Hapless Researcher

I see a lot of people move away from ponder and/or daze and I'm tempted to try option 4.

kingtk3
02-24-2017, 07:09 AM
I'd like to dispel this notion immediately. In its history, winning builds of UB Reanimator have ran 11-12 copies of their pieces. I'm too lazy to dig it up right now, but I recall reading on this forum around the Mental Misstep period that someone doing a lot of statistics and testing decided that 11/11/11 bin/fattie/reanimation split was ideal (and 3 Brainstorm). Entomb would count for both bin and fattie in that split.

...

I think you're referring to these posts (and the others related):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=560048&viewfull=1#post560048
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=561631&viewfull=1#post561631
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=562373&viewfull=1#post562373

Unfortunately the images with the percentiles breakdown are not avaible anymore. I kept those links in my bookmarks because they were very well done.

PirateKing
02-24-2017, 08:45 AM
What would you suggest between these blue flex slots:

Are you asking in the context of a standard list, or in a list with Counterbalance?

Kobra_D
02-24-2017, 10:37 AM
@PirateKing The deck looks like a list I saw LSV play about a year ago. The grixis frame always seemed sweet, plus you get to cast [CARDS] Izze Charm[\CARDS] which is always baller.

@Cpt-QC I'm not sure hapless researcher lies along our interests anymore. If you want a faster reanimate like BR, then jamming in discard and cards like careful study do let you go a littler further as efficiently. Where as if you don't mind knuckling down for a "longer" game, then [CARDS] Jace, Vryn's Prodigy [\CARDS] seems more efficient in the long run. Also, what is the misdirection specifically for in your build/meta? Is it serving as a counter spell or are you looking to hit something like ancestral's with it?

PirateKing
02-24-2017, 12:25 PM
My 4 color list came from Stryfo, so all credit to him. He and I we're testing it before that spike from the pros that one event.

Cpt-Qc
02-24-2017, 01:55 PM
Are you asking in the context of a standard list, or in a list with Counterbalance?

Just a standard list. I meant Collective Brutality, not the abomination that is counterbalance :P



@Cpt-QC I'm not sure hapless researcher lies along our interests anymore. If you want a faster reanimate like BR, then jamming in discard and cards like careful study do let you go a littler further as efficiently. Where as if you don't mind knuckling down for a "longer" game, then [CARDS] Jace, Vryn's Prodigy [\CARDS] seems more efficient in the long run. Also, what is the misdirection specifically for in your build/meta? Is it serving as a counter spell or are you looking to hit something like ancestral's with it?

With more instant and less permanent hate being in the meta in the form of surgical/faerie, I feel hapless is not a bad choice. I wouldn't hate having something to bring back when people surgical in response to exhume and It can potentially bin another creature in response if you are lucky. It also makes a fine protection against sac effects and blocks one attack. Also daze is noticeably worse than hapless will ever be if the game goes long.

The problem with Jace is it's so damn slow sometimes and it sucks even more in the face of drs.

Misdirection is just the fifth force for counter wars. Sometimes you get lucky and can use it on ancestral, StP or AD but most of the time it's just a counter. It gets sided out in any fair matchup.

CptHaddock
02-24-2017, 02:09 PM
My 4 color list came from Stryfo, so all credit to him. He and I we're testing it before that spike from the pros that one event.

Hey PirateKing, your list is pretty interesting. What do you think are the advantages of the red splash over traditional BUg and BU lists? It seems like in general you are giving up some speed for redundancy/consistency.

Kobra_D
02-24-2017, 02:48 PM
My 4 color list came from Stryfo, so all credit to him. He and I we're testing it before that spike from the pros that one event.

Fair enough, all credit to where credit is due. Since you are going as deep as this splash might you want to add some extra red cards like faithless looting to the mix?


Just a standard list. I meant Collective Brutality, not the abomination that is counterbalance :P

With more instant and less permanent hate being in the meta in the form of surgical/faerie, I feel hapless is not a bad choice. I wouldn't hate having something to bring back when people surgical in response to exhume and It can potentially bin another creature in response if you are lucky. It also makes a fine protection against sac effects and blocks one attack. Also daze is noticeably worse than hapless will ever be if the game goes long.

The problem with Jace is it's so damn slow sometimes and it sucks even more in the face of drs.

Misdirection is just the fifth force for counter wars. Sometimes you get lucky and can use it on ancestral, StP or AD but most of the time it's just a counter. It gets sided out in any fair matchup.

Fair enough on the point of baby Jace, he is a bit slower. I have worked under the assumption that UB reanimator doesn't worry about reanimating until T4/5. Not that you wouldn't take the T1 if it were handed to you on a silver platter, just that hand sculpting is kind of THE THING that blue does. Between that and black shaping our opponents hand with discard I had the (probably wrong) view that the mindset was of a grind/control with a combo finish.

And that is at least in part why I am on this particular thread asking/stating what may be obvious to the rest of the group, I am trying to learn the archetype more thoroughly beyond my own biases (red T1 or bust).

PirateKing
02-24-2017, 03:05 PM
I like Hapless Researcher because I never want to lack the option to put something into my graveyard whenever I want. I like the safety of opening up land into Hapless, it's so much safer then going straight for the Careful Study or the end their turn Entomb. For those early clutches, being able to spread 3 mana over 2 turns is great, opening Daze proof Reanimate or the more expensive options right on curve. Past that everything is just fun to do. Blocking and sacing to turn off Lifelink never gets old, helping to take the burden off Grave Titan against Liliana is good, and watching my opponent's sink into despair as the lone Elesh Norn suddenly raise an army of mighty Human Wizards to slaughter them is only the best thing ever. But they're not Careful Study, and I'm not advocating comparing them. You use them to dig only in desperation. The real comparison is against Ponder in my opinion. They're both safe T1 plays that set up for a high impact T2. Ponder gets you what you need and doesn't let on to the tricks you're about to pull. But it doesn't actually do anything, and that was the issue I was having most. Since winning off two cards in hand isn't unusual, burning that starting hand size for value isn't the worst thing to do, so I don't feel hard up for cantrips.

I'm comfortable with using the red just for Izzet Charm in the main. The Sulfur Elemental in the side was a recent addition because my regular store is small and there is a guy on D&T that I can never avoid. Plus putting EE on 4. Beyond that I get the most mileage as decoys for Wasteland to keep the Underground Seas safer; which is a pretty inefficient use of a dual land, but my list is for fun first (I mean, we're talking about Reanimator here). I'm always apprehensive about keeping creatures in the graveyard over a turn's time, and overloading on Careful Study effects can put a little too much pressure that will disrupt my ideal rate of play. So for that reason I don't play Faithless Looting. I'm always on the lookout for rogue sideboard cards that red opens up though. You're right that my ideal is a consistent T3 with protection or backup over trying to go under their curve on T1/T2.

Cpt-Qc
02-25-2017, 02:46 AM
I like Hapless Researcher because I never want to lack the option to put something into my graveyard whenever I want. I like the safety of opening up land into Hapless, it's so much safer then going straight for the Careful Study or the end their turn Entomb. For those early clutches, being able to spread 3 mana over 2 turns is great, opening Daze proof Reanimate or the more expensive options right on curve. Past that everything is just fun to do. Blocking and sacing to turn off Lifelink never gets old, helping to take the burden off Grave Titan against Liliana is good, and watching my opponent's sink into despair as the lone Elesh Norn suddenly raise an army of mighty Human Wizards to slaughter them is only the best thing ever. But they're not Careful Study, and I'm not advocating comparing them. You use them to dig only in desperation. The real comparison is against Ponder in my opinion. They're both safe T1 plays that set up for a high impact T2. Ponder gets you what you need and doesn't let on to the tricks you're about to pull. But it doesn't actually do anything, and that was the issue I was having most. Since winning off two cards in hand isn't unusual, burning that starting hand size for value isn't the worst thing to do, so I don't feel hard up for cantrips.

You actually got to block and sac to a lifelink creature in legacy? I honestly can't remember the last time I saw one such creature! Edit: I'm dumb, I wrote this late at night and when I woke up I remembered there is a certain germ that qualifies.

I want to try them but the main package is black so the only possible cuts are blue. I guess I could also free 1 slot by getting rid of the 3 petals and upping land count to 17 but it seems weird. Otherwise I need to drop all dazes or some amount of ponders. I guess you're in favor of dropping ponders if you have researcher in.

But yeah I understand why you don't like cantrips. Personally what I really like about them is the ability to find relevant sideboard cards in G2-3 so that's why I like 2 ponders at least.

nyrambler
02-26-2017, 12:41 AM
Went 6-1 to make Top 8 of the EE satellite at Bearded Dragon today.

My decklist should be published this weekend, here is what I played against

Miracles 1-2
Burn 2-0
Mono R Sneak and Breach 2-1
Death and Taxes 2-0
Storm 2-1
Sultai Delver 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-0

Top 8 lost to Elves 2-1, he had a karakas in the board to answer Elesh Norn (and naturally drew it)

The D&T matchups were complete Grave Titan blowouts. If anyone else has any questions, I will answer them for you

Cpt-Qc
02-26-2017, 01:24 AM
Top 8 lost to Elves 2-1, he had a karakas in the board to answer Elesh Norn (and naturally drew it)

The D&T matchups were complete Grave Titan blowouts. If anyone else has any questions, I will answer them for you


That's too bad, elves is such a good matchup for us too!

Also I keep Titan in post board since he's not bad but I haven't had much luck with him against DnT. Did it not just get plowed on the spot?

nyrambler
02-26-2017, 07:13 AM
That's too bad, elves is such a good matchup for us too!

Also I keep Titan in post board since he's not bad but I haven't had much luck with him against DnT. Did it not just get plowed on the spot?

What's funny is the first D&T match, after Grave Titan hit, he took a turn off to cast a Phyrexian Revoker... I thoughtseized him and he had a swords (that I took)

He drew it 3 turns after in my win and in match

Ronald Deuce
02-26-2017, 11:37 PM
Hello, everybody!

I've been reading here a bit lately, and I finally managed to complete the deck about a week ago. Took it for a spin today at the local and went 3–1 on my first outing with the deck! I should've taken notes, so this might be a bit patchy and/or inaccurate:

R1: Goblin Charbelcher (2–1)
—G1: I think he kept a slow hand. I landed Iona on Red and he couldn't get to critical mass.
—G2: I mulliganed a hand with countermagic but no lands for a three-lander with a Pithing Needle and no countermagic and lost to a T1, LED-less Charbelcher.
—G3: IIRC, I managed to snipe his combo and play out Jin-Gitaxias. He made Goblins a turn or two later, but I threw down Elesh Norn. He couldn't recover.
R2: Token White Guys (2–1) [NOTE: This seemed like a cool brew, but I forgot to take up the pilot on checking out his list.]
—G1: Kept a bad hand. He beat me down.
—G2: Fast Griselbrand. Force ate Swords. Force ate Path. Griselbrand ate Swords. Iona on white got there.
—G3: Funny how a white creature is so good against white.
R3: Maverick (0–2)
—G1: I think I kept a slower hand here, and I think more experience will be better for this matchup in the future. Opponent landed Old Thalia and Scavenging Ooze, and I didn't quite get there.
—G2: This one was a tad closer, but Scooze did its work.
R4: Grix Delver (2–0)
—G1: Though my opponent managed a quick start, a countermagic battle over reanimation worked out in my favor, and I got there with (I think) a Griselbrand and a Grave Titan. For the record, this was the first time in my life I got to Force a Force by pitching a Force.
—G2: Nearly got Macabre-d out on this one. Fortunately, I managed to rebuild over the next couple of turns. A timely Daze saved me.

I was running fifteen lands, three Lootings, three Dazes, three Petals, two Ponders, and two Show and Tells (maindeck!) on a slightly-modified AnT manabase. I've got a lot of questions, seeing as I've not played the deck much at all until today (babby's first reanimans). Apologies if I'm retreading old ground!

—The jury seems to be out on Faithless Looting. I'd been pretty torn over whether it's a good card to run, but today it felt great. One of my biggest concerns in pre-match testing was the lack of discard outlets if one runs only Careful Study without Lootings or Researchers. Is there something else that's comparable? With maindeck S&T, is so much discard necessary? I've considered more Ponders, but they felt really slow; and Breakthrough, but I don't like paying 4 just to keep Force and Other Card around. I've seen a list with a similar (though probably better) manabase on MTGTop8 running Dack Fayden.
—I'm only running two basics, Swamp and Island. I've also only got two Underground Seas (with singletons Volc and Badlands). I have to confess that my means dictated my list to some extent, but I'm still curious: does this seem sufficient? I didn't feel choked at all except against Mav, and I think that was more a lack of land generally than it was a lack of specific sources.
—If we're worried about Abrupt Decay against our Animate Dead, why not use Life/Death? Life-loss is bad, but it's efficient and sidesteps other people's stuff, unlike Show and Tell and Exhume. There's some corner-case synergy with Elesh Norn here, too.
—Daze felt really hit-and-miss. I'm not interested in running a fourth because of how situational I found it to be. Is it worth it to keep it in the main? If people have been replacing Daze slots with other control or something else (acceleration? Cantrips?), what's been working?
—Is Dark Ritual pretty much exclusively a component of Tin Fins?
—My sideboard's a disaster. Was putting it together last night for the tournament and the power went out. Figured that between picking through cards by candlelight and drinking everything that might go off, I'd rather do the latter. So what cards have people been using that are totally solid and 100% super-effective (i.e., "60% of the time, it works every time")? I know Abrupt Decay and Echoing Truth sound crucial. Some discards, Pithing Needle, and Massacre also seemed good choices, so I threw those in. Anything specific that's missing?

I'm not expecting definitive or comprehensive answers, but I'd love for people to chime in about what's good and what isn't. Discussions foster innovation, after all. Thank you all in advance!

PirateKing
02-27-2017, 09:08 AM
Congrats nyrambler on the finish. I was there as well to write a report, but my day didn't go well and I finished poorly. Didn't get much useful data either, felt like the deck wasn't shuffled properly. Way too many 1 land solid hands, but no further lands and a few brainstorm locks leads to my death. Just feeling the tempo loss after missing usable top decks for 4 turns in a row knowing by the time you caught back up their hand is stacked with responses is disheartening. It just wasn't running all cylinders this week, not sure why.

Interesting to see so much Reanimator there though, every game I was seated at a table also playing some version. Seemed like there was a chorus of "end of turn Entomb, untap, Reanimate?" at times. Hoping some other reports come out to spur some discussions of the deck in the current environment.

Ronald, you're running both red and blue? What about green?
I agree that just 4 Careful Study isn't enough to put our creatures in the yard. Options beyond that are Faithless, Hapless & Izzet Charm. Collective Brutality and stuff like Heir of Falkenrath work as well, but both their discards are cost based, so the effect can be responded to by messing with your graveyard and just just by countermagic. Brainstorm + Entomb works in a pinch as well. Thoughtseize targeting yourself is the fringe example.
Abrupt Decay on Animate Dead isn't a major priority, we've got so much else to worry about. Most decks only run 1-2 copies after maxing out on Reanimate and Exhume. The life loss isn't nothing, and increasing the number of cards that hit us that hard isn't appealing. I would enjoy seeing you play Life with Elesh Norn out though. I would like that very much.
Daze is always hit or miss. But it's the safest generic card for game 1 when your opponent doesn't know what you're on. After that though, I side mine out for Abrupt Decay immediately in game 2. If we're thinking about bringing in counters from the sideboard, Daze shouldn't be one of them. Stuff like Misdirection and Flusterstorm are better options after you know what your opponent is doing.
If you're just doing the OG 2 color list, it's not unusual to see Dark Ritual somewhere in the list. The only real sideboard strategies then are S&T, bouncing their hate or going superfast with DR.

Most sideboards get built with 2-3 additional creatures that are matchup specific enough to not make it into the main deck. Cards that win on their own, but not against enough of your expected matches to want them game 1. The bulk of the sideboard is anti-hate hate cards. Stuff you bring in to kill the stuff you know they're bringing in. Casting a wide net is good here; people run removal like Abrupt Decay, bounce like Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor, wipes like Massacre or Engineered Explosives, or just go around it all with Show and Tell. Lastly it gets filled out with some hate cards of your own, usually generic stuff like Pithing Needle, extra discard and sometimes graveyard hate of our own. Faerie Macabre is always a fun one to use and then also reanimate. Can be used to save yourself from Surgical Extraction as well.

nyrambler
02-27-2017, 04:52 PM
Congrats nyrambler on the finish. I was there as well to write a report, but my day didn't go well and I finished poorly. Didn't get much useful data either, felt like the deck wasn't shuffled properly. Way too many 1 land solid hands, but no further lands and a few brainstorm locks leads to my death. Just feeling the tempo loss after missing usable top decks for 4 turns in a row knowing by the time you caught back up their hand is stacked with responses is disheartening. It just wasn't running all cylinders this week, not sure why.

Interesting to see so much Reanimator there though, every game I was seated at a table also playing some version. Seemed like there was a chorus of "end of turn Entomb, untap, Reanimate?" at times. Hoping some other reports come out to spur some discussions of the deck in the current environment.

Thanks... There was another U/B deck that had a win and in on the live stream but got leyline'd by Eldrazi (the Eldrazi deck wound up splitting the finals with Joe Brennan)

There was a couple R/B there as well while I was scouring the area, def at least 5 or 6 flavors of reanimator, in a 102 person field. I was the one in a Brock Lesnar shirt and Rangers hat.

List hasn't gone up yet but here it is:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Swamp

4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Aetherling
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Coffin Purge
1 Show and Tell

Ronald Deuce
02-28-2017, 01:54 AM
PirateKing, thanks for getting back to me!


Ronald, you're running both red and blue? What about green?

I've got a Tropical in the maindeck and a Bayou in the sideboard for my Decays. Do people tend to run other green cards? My experience with Xantids and Carpets in Storm was that they were extremely underwhelming, but Storm doesn't pack maindeck countermagic, so maybe I'm not giving those cards a fair shake.


I agree that just 4 Careful Study isn't enough to put our creatures in the yard. Options beyond that are Faithless, Hapless & Izzet Charm. Collective Brutality and stuff like Heir of Falkenrath work as well, but both their discards are cost based, so the effect can be responded to by messing with your graveyard and just just by countermagic. Brainstorm + Entomb works in a pinch as well. Thoughtseize targeting yourself is the fringe example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it also be a problem if the discard were part of the spell's effect? Can't the opponent, say, Extirpate us after a Looting resolves when we move to cast another spell? Apologies if I'm being dense; it's late/early here.

I really like Izzet Charm as a card: it's versatile, and all three modes do stuff our deck would want it to do. It feels a bit precarious to me, though, because it requires two colors. Have you been using it lately? If so, how's it been performing, and what did it replace in your older lists?

Have you/has anyone tried cards like Putrid Imp? I haven't, but it just occurred to me as another discard outlet with which I'm familiar.


Abrupt Decay on Animate Dead isn't a major priority, we've got so much else to worry about. Most decks only run 1-2 copies after maxing out on Reanimate and Exhume. The life loss isn't nothing, and increasing the number of cards that hit us that hard isn't appealing. I would enjoy seeing you play Life with Elesh Norn out though. I would like that very much.

One more reason to play green! :D

Thanks for the feedback re: Animate Dead. I might put one or two back in my main in place of Show and Tell. I'm finding that I cast S&T rather rarely at this juncture. I might need to run a fourth Petal to really get any mileage out of it as anything but Force-fodder.


Daze is always hit or miss. But it's the safest generic card for game 1 when your opponent doesn't know what you're on. After that though, I side mine out for Abrupt Decay immediately in game 2. If we're thinking about bringing in counters from the sideboard, Daze shouldn't be one of them. Stuff like Misdirection and Flusterstorm are better options after you know what your opponent is doing.
If you're just doing the OG 2 color list, it's not unusual to see Dark Ritual somewhere in the list. The only real sideboard strategies then are S&T, bouncing their hate or going superfast with DR.

All this sounds pretty much like what I was thinking. Thanks for the info!


Most sideboards get built with 2-3 additional creatures that are matchup specific enough to not make it into the main deck. Cards that win on their own, but not against enough of your expected matches to want them game 1. The bulk of the sideboard is anti-hate hate cards. Stuff you bring in to kill the stuff you know they're bringing in. Casting a wide net is good here; people run removal like Abrupt Decay, bounce like Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor, wipes like Massacre or Engineered Explosives, or just go around it all with Show and Tell. Lastly it gets filled out with some hate cards of your own, usually generic stuff like Pithing Needle, extra discard and sometimes graveyard hate of our own. Faerie Macabre is always a fun one to use and then also reanimate. Can be used to save yourself from Surgical Extraction as well.

Haha, I knew I was forgetting something crucial! Ran out the door and forgot my Archon and Archetype at home.

I'll start tinkering with some added sideboard disruption. Thanks again for all the feedback!

PirateKing
02-28-2017, 09:26 AM
I was the one in a Brock Lesnar shirt and Rangers hat.
:laugh:The Suplex City shirt? We'll have to meet up for beers after the next event around here. Nice list, very classic, good to see you don't have to get super spicy to find success. What were the matchups you brought in Fatal Push? Just DRS based decks or we're you using them to buy time against aggro decks as well?


PirateKing, thanks for getting back to me!
Most often, the graveyard is the least safe place to store our creatures. So being part of the cost gives us an uncounterable way to pitch our creature, but I'm not sure in what situation that would be applicable. I'm just seeing it though the eyes of giving your opponent more options, more information when they have priority. If you cast Collective Brutality and pick two modes, discarding Griselbrand, you pass priority to them with a spell on the stack and a juicy creature in the graveyard. Compare that to casting just Careful Study, all they know is I'd like to draw 2 and discard 2. Maybe I'm digging, maybe I'm binning a creature to go off. They have to decide to counter or not based on less information than Collective Brutality. And if they do counter Careful Study, then I'd feel better not passing the turn with the creature in the graveyard. It's as if I want to advise considering using the Escalate function as a "fringe use" up there with Thoughtseizeing yourself, which sounds totally ass backwards, but in a lot of instances I want to use it, it doesn't work. I can't kill a DRS and bin a creature. I can't rip a Surgical effect out of their hand and bin a creature. Only time it does work is when they're on a single counterspell, you'll get to bin the creature, force them to counter or lose it either way, then the path is clear to reanimate. Which is on par mana-wise with Duress into Careful Study into Reanimate, so I'm fine with that. But all other uses become really expensive for what you're doing. I actually like Collective Brutality better in my Storm lists, opening up lines with Infernal Tutor that would normally be dead without a LED. But then I don't really care what I'm discarding, it's just flak that I can't cast that turn to get Hellbent.

Green is pretty much just to power out Abrupt Decay. I also run that single Pernicious Deed, but other Storm-y sideboard cards like Swarm and Carpet of Flowers don't really get used here. The red for Izzet Charm isn't really a problem, sometimes you do have to be nimble with your fetches and how you tap, but if they weren't red duals they'd be a basic Island and Swamp, so everything would still apply there. Honestly, their main function ends up being pitching to Force and cards to swap out in sideboard games. It's rare that I'm actually casting them, but what keeps bringing me back is whenever I do, it's always super useful. EOT burning their DRS, EOT drawing and discarding to set up the reanimate, or rarest is actually mana leaking someone. But my games do tend to grind, so it's happened before. I'm not so much advocating for them as I am explaining my own preferences.

nyrambler
02-28-2017, 09:38 AM
:laugh:The Suplex City shirt? We'll have to meet up for beers after the next event around here. Nice list, very classic, good to see you don't have to get super spicy to find success. What were the matchups you brought in Fatal Push? Just DRS based decks or we're you using them to buy time against aggro decks as well?

It basically replaced disfigure for me. Obv bring it in vs DRS decks but it's fine against any Delver strategy. Also great against Death and Taxes, Burn... any deck that has a creature that can hinder your process

Ronald Deuce
03-01-2017, 11:33 AM
Most often, the graveyard is the least safe place to store our creatures. So being part of the cost gives us an uncounterable way to pitch our creature, but I'm not sure in what situation that would be applicable. I'm just seeing it though the eyes of giving your opponent more options, more information when they have priority. If you cast Collective Brutality and pick two modes, discarding Griselbrand, you pass priority to them with a spell on the stack and a juicy creature in the graveyard. Compare that to casting just Careful Study, all they know is I'd like to draw 2 and discard 2. Maybe I'm digging, maybe I'm binning a creature to go off. They have to decide to counter or not based on less information than Collective Brutality. And if they do counter Careful Study, then I'd feel better not passing the turn with the creature in the graveyard. It's as if I want to advise considering using the Escalate function as a "fringe use" up there with Thoughtseizeing yourself, which sounds totally ass backwards, but in a lot of instances I want to use it, it doesn't work. I can't kill a DRS and bin a creature. I can't rip a Surgical effect out of their hand and bin a creature. Only time it does work is when they're on a single counterspell, you'll get to bin the creature, force them to counter or lose it either way, then the path is clear to reanimate. Which is on par mana-wise with Duress into Careful Study into Reanimate, so I'm fine with that. But all other uses become really expensive for what you're doing. I actually like Collective Brutality better in my Storm lists, opening up lines with Infernal Tutor that would normally be dead without a LED. But then I don't really care what I'm discarding, it's just flak that I can't cast that turn to get Hellbent.

Green is pretty much just to power out Abrupt Decay. I also run that single Pernicious Deed, but other Storm-y sideboard cards like Swarm and Carpet of Flowers don't really get used here. The red for Izzet Charm isn't really a problem, sometimes you do have to be nimble with your fetches and how you tap, but if they weren't red duals they'd be a basic Island and Swamp, so everything would still apply there. Honestly, their main function ends up being pitching to Force and cards to swap out in sideboard games. It's rare that I'm actually casting them, but what keeps bringing me back is whenever I do, it's always super useful. EOT burning their DRS, EOT drawing and discarding to set up the reanimate, or rarest is actually mana leaking someone. But my games do tend to grind, so it's happened before. I'm not so much advocating for them as I am explaining my own preferences.

Ah, ok! Cool stuff! I noticed what you were saying about Deathrite after I posted my last message, but I also think you're right about how/when we show our opponents our gameplan. I'm not running Brutality at the moment, primarily because I don't own it, but also because it looked a tad on the clunky side to me. I'm used to cmc-1 enablers, so it's been an interesting change of pace to be running two-drops with less acceleration than I ran in AnT. That's partially why I was reluctant to try Izzet Charm, but if it hasn't been causing problems, it sounds like it's worth a try.

Regarding other green cards, I think the list I saw with Carpets was a bit idiosyncratic. I guess my personal experience and your info are in concordance. Thanks again!

Regarding Fatal Push, from what I've seen of the card in other decks, it looks like a good thing to have. I've not gotten a ton of mileage out of it as a singleton in other decks, but I think it's definitely an upgrade to Disfigure.

Zifbox
03-02-2017, 11:43 PM
Hiya. I'm thinking of picking up Reanimator on MtGO, but... question. Which variant is better equipped for the current metagame - UB or BR?

RNGesus
03-03-2017, 12:54 AM
Hiya. I'm thinking of picking up Reanimator on MtGO, but... question. Which variant is better equipped for the current metagame - UB or BR?

RB is putting up more results than UB. Doesn't necessarily mean that UB is worse in the meta game, as players who have UBg reanimator have the lands to swap to better placed decks like Noble BUG, BUG delver and Shardless BUG, whereas RB players commonly are locked into using that deck.


EDIT: sorry didn't notice you said MTGO. Ignore what I said!

PirateKing
03-03-2017, 08:01 AM
Hiya. I'm thinking of picking up Reanimator on MtGO, but... question. Which variant is better equipped for the current metagame - UB or BR?

You'd have to enlighten me as to the differences between the metas, but in general, would you say you 1) gotta go fast -or- 2) gotta go blue?

Ronald Deuce
03-03-2017, 06:32 PM
What's the current thinking regarding what creatures to use against Lands at the moment? Nobody plays Lands at the local, but I'm wondering whether there's an accepted go-to for us right now. Been debating between Ashen Rider, Archetype, and Inkwell lately, and I was wondering how they've been treating people.

Hope I'm not retreading old ground again!

Fox
03-03-2017, 06:39 PM
Any land-based deck (be it Lands, Post, or Turbo Depths) generally lose on the spot to Tidespout Tyrant.

Cpt-Qc
03-04-2017, 01:07 PM
What's the current thinking regarding what creatures to use against Lands at the moment? Nobody plays Lands at the local, but I'm wondering whether there's an accepted go-to for us right now. Been debating between Ashen Rider, Archetype, and Inkwell lately, and I was wondering how they've been treating people.

Hope I'm not retreading old ground again!

If you run it in the side, Blazing Archon will stop them from winning the game until you find either Inkwell or Tidespout. Inkwell will go through Maze of Ith, assuming they don't have their spaghethti monster out yet.

Ronald Deuce
03-04-2017, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the input, everybody!

A corollary: It seems like the hexproof creatures aren't really played much at this point. I'm wondering whether people feel like they're essential, and in which matchups. I was thinking an Inkwell or an Archetype would be nice against hatebears and Lands, but I don't see a lot of those on the lists that have been placing lately.

Cpt-Qc
03-05-2017, 02:34 AM
Thanks for the input, everybody!

A corollary: It seems like the hexproof creatures aren't really played much at this point. I'm wondering whether people feel like they're essential, and in which matchups. I was thinking an Inkwell or an Archetype would be nice against hatebears and Lands, but I don't see a lot of those on the lists that have been placing lately.

I would say one of the 3 main evasive creatures is a must for the deck. As long as one is in your 75 that should be good.

Inkwell is the best solo creature but can be outraced by non U decks. It's good against any decks with StP.
Archetype is the worst solo creature and usually can't do much by himself, but he makes all of the other creatures 100% better. It's bad if you need speed but it's unvaluable in slower games where you'll get to reanimate at least twice.
Aetherling is mostly focused at beating miracles because it's the most evasive creature ever.

Now even if it's not the perfect silver bullet for a matchup, you'll often side out 1 or 2 of your main creatures and you can usually find one of those to be better. For example, I would rather have an Inkwell against DnT than a Tidespout. It's primary use is decks with Islands but it's less risky than reanimating and losing your creature (to StP or Karakas) if you had no free counterspell on T1 or T2.

Ronald Deuce
03-05-2017, 07:41 PM
I would say one of the 3 main evasive creatures is a must for the deck. As long as one is in your 75 that should be good.

Inkwell is the best solo creature but can be outraced by non U decks. It's good against any decks with StP.
Archetype is the worst solo creature and usually can't do much by himself, but he makes all of the other creatures 100% better. It's bad if you need speed but it's unvaluable in slower games where you'll get to reanimate at least twice.
Aetherling is mostly focused at beating miracles because it's the most evasive creature ever.

Now even if it's not the perfect silver bullet for a matchup, you'll often side out 1 or 2 of your main creatures and you can usually find one of those to be better. For example, I would rather have an Inkwell against DnT than a Tidespout. It's primary use is decks with Islands but it's less risky than reanimating and losing your creature (to StP or Karakas) if you had no free counterspell on T1 or T2.

Thanks a lot for the information!

I've got a couple of questions/musings, but I'll give a match report first. 3–1 again today!

R1: 12-Post (2–0)
—G1: T2 Jin-Gitaxias sealed the deal. That card is awesome.
—G2: This one took a little longer, I think because I had some trouble finding everything I needed to close the game. I got Juked with a few biggies in my graveyard, but I managed to land a Pithing Needle when my opponent cracked a Map for Maze of Ith. I reanimated Blazing Archon and sat on it for a bit, eventually finding another big guy (Tidespout?) to seal the game.
R2: Grix Delver (0–2)
Total reversal from last week!
—G1: My T1 fetch got Stifled, and I didn't find another land.
—G2: He had too many counterspells to stop, and I also had some trouble sticking lands for long enough to get anything going. More on that in a bit.
R3: 3-Color Little Kid (2–0)
—Not a lot to say about this one. I think he was just interested in playing some Magic, and I saw a lot of Standard rares. Not a pairing I was hoping to see (feels bad if I win and worse if I lose), but I wish him the best. This match started to show me some inconsistencies that I'm wondering how best to address.
R4: Cheeri0s (2–1)
—G1: He started comboing out when I didn't have much on the board, but I had the timely Daze and Force.
—G2: T1 Glimpse, Kobold, Kobold, Kobold, Kobold, Walker, Kobold, Kobold, Memnite, Kobold, Shield Sphere, Kobold, Ornithopter, Kobold, Kobold, Scapegoat, do it all again, Grapeshot. Or something like that. I had a Daze in hand, but he went first.
—G3: I Forced his Glimpse on the first turn, then got stuck for a turn or two before playing Iona on Green. He conceded.

Maybe not the most representative tournament, but it elucidated a couple of the things I've been trying to articulate about my build's consistency. I'm on 15 lands right now, and I hate the prospect of running more, but the Delver match was really yucky because I just couldn't stick enough stuff to get the deck going. I'm considering cutting Lotus Petal at this stage. I really like the card; gives us a speed boost and works excellently with Tidespout, but the fact that it doesn't stick around is a problem. I've not found myself winning off of it as often as I'd hoped.

Daze also didn't perform as well as I would've liked. In both R2 and R4, it didn't really do anything. Too slow against Shield_Sphere.dec, and not impactful enough against Delver. The latter case might just be my inexperience, though; I'm new to competitive control, and I don't know the high-value targets all that well. I'll probably keep it around for the time being, but its weaknesses really showed today. Either my opponents had enough mana to work around it, or they didn't present anything that felt like it was worth skipping a land drop to counter.

I also had a few games in which I was missing a piece that would've given me liftoff. I'm missing the full quad of Ponders I had in Storm, and I think it might be worth it to experiment with that again. Cutting the 3x Petal would give me room for two more Ponders and a sixteenth land. I'm starting to think that might be a more stable and functional build.

Was talking to another guy at the store who plays Reanimator (the Grix Delver guy), and he said something to the effect that if I'm running Daze, I should run a full quad. Anybody have further input on that?

Thanks again!

Cpt-Qc
03-17-2017, 03:19 PM
Was talking to another guy at the store who plays Reanimator (the Grix Delver guy), and he said something to the effect that if I'm running Daze, I should run a full quad. Anybody have further input on that?


That way of thinking is understandable since Daze is at it's best in the first two turns and quickly becomes less useful as the game progresses but I believe it's not this clear cut what's the best number. I personally play 3 since it's significantly worse for this deck than it is for say a delver deck with wasteland and/or stifle where it can be live until T5-6. I don't ever want to see it more than once per game if possible. Just enough to remind the opponent that they have to slow down all their plays in fear of it being their last turn.

Besides, daze is quite bad on the draw and is often the first card that gets boarded out so, considering you'll win approximately 50% of the die rolls, you probably don't want it in your opening hand that often.

Ronald Deuce
03-17-2017, 05:50 PM
That way of thinking is understandable since Daze is at it's best in the first two turns and quickly becomes less useful as the game progresses but I believe it's not this clear cut what's the best number. I personally play 3 since it's significantly worse for this deck than it is for say a delver deck with wasteland and/or stifle where it can be live until T5-6. I don't ever want to see it more than once per game if possible. Just enough to remind the opponent that they have to slow down all their plays in fear of it being their last turn.

Besides, daze is quite bad on the draw and is often the first card that gets boarded out so, considering you'll win approximately 50% of the die rolls, you probably don't want it in your opening hand that often.

Thanks a lot for the info! It sounds rather like what I was thinking; this past week, I goldfished a bit with a quad of Daze and it came up too often.

My crash-course hit its first crash last week (0–3; yaaaaay! Hasn't happened since I tried Pox once. Once.), so I've cut red for the time being to see what I can get out of a straight U/B mainboard with green in the side.

Aside from Force, is our only other good go-to control card Thoughtseize? Been thinking about Collective Brutality and Cabal Therapy as well.

Karhumies
03-17-2017, 07:26 PM
Aside from Force, is our only other good go-to control card Thoughtseize? Been thinking about Collective Brutality and Cabal Therapy as well.

MD options:
Collective Brutality kills DRS but it's slow
Unmask is super fast, "all-in"
Seize is all-around, synergy with Reanimate
FoW and Daze protect against counters when going off
Brainstorm and Spell Pierce can protect against spot discard
Cabal Therapy has poor flashback synergy, I don't recommend it

Niche SB options:
Defense Grid
Duress
Xantid Swarm
Boseiju
Misdirection "5th FoW"
Divert
Ground Seal (if running Exhume + Shallow Grave build)

crowe_1
03-18-2017, 04:50 AM
Aside from Force, is our only other good go-to control card Thoughtseize? Been thinking about Collective Brutality and Cabal Therapy as well.

In terms of sideboard, at least two Pithing Needles are a must IMO. Shuts down DRS, Relic, Tormod, F Macabre, problematic Planeswalkers, and the list goes on and on. Best part is the opponent probably boarded out anything they might have that could remove it. I personally run an Engineered Explosives post-board to hit Chalice, DRS, Cage, etc.

I've seen lists run Flusterstorm too but I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's better for definitively countering business spells, whereas we're usually trying to win a counter war with our counterspells. Good versus Surgical I suppose.

Karhumies
03-18-2017, 05:26 AM
I've seen lists run Flusterstorm too but I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's better for definitively countering business spells, whereas we're usually trying to win a counter war with our counterspells. Good versus Surgical I suppose.
Terrible vs. Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb and LED compared to Spell Pierce. Typically not better than Spell Pierce unless opponent goes T1/2 storm goblins route or the opponent has manaless counter backup to counter the Pierce whereas Fluster makes multi copies. That's niche.

crowe_1
03-19-2017, 12:25 AM
I agree. Don't run it personally, just trying to rationalize its use. Flusterstorm is best to hard counter something like Show and Tell; ie, stopping a (instant or sorcery) spell cold that absolutely needs to be countered. Not bad, but not what we really want in a sideboard card because it doesn't help push our combo through any better than Spell Pierce. They counter our Reanimate, we counter back with Flusterstorm, they use their counterspell number two targeting the same Reanimate. It's not useless by any stretch but I think we can do better.

Venomous72
04-08-2017, 10:07 PM
Morawski is in 3rd overall with UB Reanimator at SCG Worcester. Anyone know his specific list? Chancellor's in the 75 at all?

crowe_1
04-09-2017, 09:15 AM
Didn't see any Chancellors. Saw an Iona in the board and someone said on Reddit he had a GT main. Seems like it's closer to a classic build with Show and Tells side, though I guess we won't know for sure unless his list is published.

Venomous72
04-09-2017, 09:36 AM
Didn't see any Chancellors. Saw an Iona in the board and someone said on Reddit he had a GT main. Seems like it's closer to a classic build with Show and Tells side, though I guess we won't know for sure unless his list is published.

I saw a Fatal Push in the sideboard, and I wonder if he is running any in the main or maybe Collective Brutalities. With the amount of DRS running around, mainboard CB seems really good.

Venomous72
04-09-2017, 04:29 PM
Top 8!

Ronald Deuce
04-09-2017, 07:54 PM
Here it is:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112706

[EDIT: everything that follows upon closer examination; posted the list as soon as I could find it.]

So is Ashen Powder supposed to be Ashen Rider?

meffeo
04-10-2017, 05:28 AM
So is Ashen Powder supposed to be Ashen Rider?
Yeah, as long as his sideboard showed on screen was correct. It makes obviously more sense to me.

A pretty stock list, even if the D&T mu seems worse without the big Leviathan.

Venomous72
04-10-2017, 11:39 AM
Well it was nice to see that UB Reanimator is still kicking. I was kind of surprised to see such a traditional build do so well in this field of all the DRS's. I hope we get a write up somewhere of his matchups and how they went. UB is my favorite deck and this has inspired me to sleeve it up again. I am pretty rusty with it though so we'll see how this goes.

RNGesus
04-10-2017, 10:57 PM
This is great, I feel that UB has proven itself capable of having a decent shot in any meta.

Venomous72
04-10-2017, 11:35 PM
This is great, I feel that UB has proven itself capable of having a decent shot in any meta.

I agree. BR is fun and can spike a tournament, but UB really rewards the player knowing the deck. Knowing what to Daze, Force, when to force combo, etc. I also like the flexibility we have with MB Show and Tells, Collective Brutalities, etc.

Venomous72
04-12-2017, 08:51 AM
Went 2-1 last night at our Tuesday Night Legacy. Beat Aluren 2-0 (turn 2 Elesh with Force backup, then turn 3 Elesh with backup), beat my buddy's Blasphemous Act home brew (game 2 I beat a turn 1 Grafdiggers Cage by Show and Telling Griselbrand, it gets plowed, then S&T'd Grave Titan).

I lost 1-2 to Death and Taxes. I had a Griselbrand plus Elesh kill in game 1, game 2 he had double containment priest. Game 3 I mulled to 5 and kept a no lander and lost.

All in all the deck felt fantastic. The one collective brutality in the main won me two games by itself. From the sideboard Abrupt Decay was obviously good and Show and Tell was great as always.

I'll stick with this list for a while.

FZA
04-12-2017, 03:07 PM
Seeing UB Reanimator put up a solid finish at SCG Worcestor has inspired me to try out the deck. Never played much Reanimator though it has a special place in my heart since I used to play a budget mono-black version forever ago.

Anyone have a good SB guide for a list similar to the 3rd place Worcestor one?

Venomous72
04-12-2017, 03:27 PM
Seeing UB Reanimator put up a solid finish at SCG Worcestor has inspired me to try out the deck. Never played much Reanimator though it has a special place in my heart since I used to play a budget mono-black version forever ago.

Anyone have a good SB guide for a list similar to the 3rd place Worcestor one?

I run a traditional UB build with a pretty similar sideboard.

If I am up against a DRS deck:

+ 2x Show and Tell
+ 2x Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Collective Brutality

- 1x Careful Study
- 1x Entomb
- 1x Exhume
- 1x Reanimate
- 1x Daze (on the draw)

Pithing Needle is good assuming they side out their Decays (a good player will). If I see more graveyard hate like Relics or Cages, I will bring in a third Abrupt Decay and run 4x Show and Tell most likely.

Death and Taxes:

+ 3x Abrupt Decay
+ 1x Pithing Needle
+ 1x CB
+ 1x Fatal Push
+ 1x Massacre
+ 1x Inkwell Leviathan

- 3x Daze
- 1x Lotus Petal (terrible against Thalia)
- 1x Thoughtseize (on the draw)
- 1x Force of Will
- 1x Griselbrand
- 1x Show and Tell (Sneak and Show has a terrible D&T matchup. Don't bring these in. Don't do it)

I like leaving in some number of FoW to protect from Surgicals or Swords. Iona is another option. If you blind play Pithing Needle, depending on your hand, Karakas is often a very good card to name. That will ruin your day.



Storm:

Lol. Just kill them.



Sneak and Show:

Kill them + Ashen Rider.


Miracles:

This one is actually kind of tricky. We will likely take game one but it will be a slog unless they just draw blanks. Path + Karakas + Counters really make this annoying. I always recommend going for Griselbrand first and then trying to get something like Tidespout out as well (or Grave Titan for a real fast clock).

Post board it really depends on the Miracles build. You bring in all your Abrupt Decay for sure. CounterBalance is bad news and they know it so they will leave it in. They will also bring in Rest in Peace and maybe Containment Priest.

I would leave the mainboard Show and Tell in, but probably not any others. Decay, Collective Brutality, Inkwell Leviathan, Duress/TS effects are all good. I would take out a Griselbrand, Elesh Norn, Daze on the draw, a Careful Study, a Lotus petal maybe.

Don't be scared to take out a Lotus Petal if all your cards seem good in a matchup.

Anyway, these are just based on my experience so far. I am not even close to an expert on this deck. If you have specific questions let me know and I'll do my best.

PirateKing
04-12-2017, 03:52 PM
Venomous72, in your Miracles advice when you say Path do you mean Path to Exile; and if you mean Path to Exile, do you mean Swords to Plowshares?

Additionally most Miracles lists don't have Karakas in their 75 anymore, so Iona on white is a real problem for them. Landing one narrows their outs to Council's Judgment and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Venomous72
04-12-2017, 04:06 PM
Venomous72, in your Miracles advice when you say Path do you mean Path to Exile; and if you mean Path to Exile, do you mean Swords to Plowshares?

Additionally most Miracles lists don't have Karakas in their 75 anymore, so Iona on white is a real problem for them. Landing one narrows their outs to Council's Judgment and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

I super meant Swords, yep.

Iona is good. I bring her in against Miracles. All the lists at my local shop run 2x Karakas so my advice is biased toward that.

EDIT: I realize in that post I forgot to mention Iona entirely, but yes I agree with PirateKing. Iona is better in this matchup than your other Legendaries. I don't run her in the main anymore but I would replace a Griselbrand with her most likely, and an Elesh with Inkwell.

Ephemeron
04-12-2017, 04:26 PM
I think Miracles is largely off RiP now, instead relying on Surgical + Snapcaster for all their graveyard hate needs. You're still bringing in Decay obviously because you need a way to deal with counterbalance, but you can be a little more judicious with it's use now. I'd bring in all the discard you have plus the pithing needles and take out all the lotus petals because you're in for a slow grindfest against Miracles postboard. I'd probably also take out the Daze, especially on the draw.

Karhumies
04-12-2017, 04:29 PM
the D&T mu seems worse without the big Leviathan.

Personally, I've had more success against D&T with Elesh Norn, Ashen Rider, Grave Titan and Tidespout Tyrant than with Inkwell Leviathan. D&T can quite frequently Council's Judgment the Leviathan (especially if the Leviathan lands t2/t3) or outrace it with Aether Vial + flyers + Batterskull. Equipping Batterskull or Jitte to a flyer gives D&T way too much life gain.

Against D&T, I typically end up winning the games where I get to animate 3+ times, draw 1-2 answers to their hate cards and wipe their board 1-3 times. Feels like a war of attrition to me. We have better filtering tools than they do for the long game, but both of their Thalias are nasty and most of their SB stuff is nasty as well.

Venomous72
04-12-2017, 04:50 PM
Personally, I've had more success against D&T with Elesh Norn, Ashen Rider, Grave Titan and Tidespout Tyrant than with Inkwell Leviathan. D&T can quite frequently Council's Judgment the Leviathan (especially if the Leviathan lands t2/t3) or outrace it with Aether Vial + flyers + Batterskull. Equipping Batterskull or Jitte to a flyer gives D&T way too much life gain.

Against D&T, I typically end up winning the games where I get to animate 3+ times, draw 1-2 answers to their hate cards and wipe their board 1-3 times. Feels like a war of attrition to me. We have better filtering tools than they do for the long game, but both of their Thalias are nasty and most of their SB stuff is nasty as well.

Yeah Elesh is good against Death and Taxes. The game I won I got her and Grisel out after Thoughtseizing away Batterskull.

FZA
04-12-2017, 05:48 PM
I run a traditional UB build with a pretty similar sideboard.

If I am up against a DRS deck:

+ 2x Show and Tell
+ 2x Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Collective Brutality

- 1x Careful Study
- 1x Entomb
- 1x Exhume
- 1x Reanimate
- 1x Daze (on the draw)

Pithing Needle is good assuming they side out their Decays (a good player will). If I see more graveyard hate like Relics or Cages, I will bring in a third Abrupt Decay and run 4x Show and Tell most likely.

Death and Taxes:

+ 3x Abrupt Decay
+ 1x Pithing Needle
+ 1x CB
+ 1x Fatal Push
+ 1x Massacre
+ 1x Inkwell Leviathan

- 3x Daze
- 1x Lotus Petal (terrible against Thalia)
- 1x Thoughtseize (on the draw)
- 1x Force of Will
- 1x Griselbrand
- 1x Show and Tell (Sneak and Show has a terrible D&T matchup. Don't bring these in. Don't do it)

I like leaving in some number of FoW to protect from Surgicals or Swords. Iona is another option. If you blind play Pithing Needle, depending on your hand, Karakas is often a very good card to name. That will ruin your day.



Storm:

Lol. Just kill them.



Sneak and Show:

Kill them + Ashen Rider.


Miracles:

This one is actually kind of tricky. We will likely take game one but it will be a slog unless they just draw blanks. Path + Karakas + Counters really make this annoying. I always recommend going for Griselbrand first and then trying to get something like Tidespout out as well (or Grave Titan for a real fast clock).

Post board it really depends on the Miracles build. You bring in all your Abrupt Decay for sure. CounterBalance is bad news and they know it so they will leave it in. They will also bring in Rest in Peace and maybe Containment Priest.

I would leave the mainboard Show and Tell in, but probably not any others. Decay, Collective Brutality, Inkwell Leviathan, Duress/TS effects are all good. I would take out a Griselbrand, Elesh Norn, Daze on the draw, a Careful Study, a Lotus petal maybe.

Don't be scared to take out a Lotus Petal if all your cards seem good in a matchup.

Anyway, these are just based on my experience so far. I am not even close to an expert on this deck. If you have specific questions let me know and I'll do my best.

Thank you, your input is much appreciated.

Is there no consideration for sideboarding out FoW against BUG or other grindy decks? Or should it also stay as a 4-of to protect griselbrand?

FWIW as a Miracles player, most of us are not running RiP currently due to the speed of BR Reanimator, so you can usually just expect Surgical and maybe Containment Priest as hate cards. Show and Tell is what scares me the most, it's a 3 which is hard to stop with Counterbalance (as opposed to all the 1/2 cmc reanimator cards) and Surgical does nothing against it. So I think going full on the Show and Tells against Miracles might be the way to go.

Venomous72
04-12-2017, 06:02 PM
Thank you, your input is much appreciated.

Is there no consideration for sideboarding out FoW against BUG or other grindy decks? Or should it also stay as a 4-of to protect griselbrand?

FWIW as a Miracles player, most of us are not running RiP currently due to the speed of BR Reanimator, so you can usually just expect Surgical and maybe Containment Priest as hate cards. Show and Tell is what scares me the most, it's a 3 which is hard to stop with Counterbalance (as opposed to all the 1/2 cmc reanimator cards) and Surgical does nothing against it. So I think going full on the Show and Tells against Miracles might be the way to go.

You are probably correct on Show and Tell in the general meta. My meta is inbred with Reanimator so we have a crap ton of Containment Priest running around in the Miracles sideboards.

I keep Force in against BUG to try and stop Surgical. They almost always run 2x in the sideboard. Sometimes slow rolling and waiting for a Force/Daze/Thoughtseize/Card Redundancy is the way to go.

For example, last night in Game 2 against Aluren, he snap kept his 7 (spooky for me) and I had the turn 1 Elesh (land, petal, petal, entomb, exhume, study) but had no interaction so I just Brainstorm/Pondered my way to a redundant reanimate spell + 2 dudes in the yard (I careful studied pitching Elesh and Titan). I went for Exhume first, he Forced, followed up with Reanimate and won.

One thing I do in games two and three, if I suspect surgical (I always suspect surgical), is that I will bait it out with my second best threat. In this case it was Elesh Norn. If she got Extracted that would suck, but I would still have Griselbrand, but if she does reanimate I probably win.

Ronald Deuce
04-13-2017, 06:41 PM
Is there a consensus on the number of reanimation cards we should be running at this stage? I cut back my mainboard stuff to the core eight (quads of Reanimate and Exhume) with two S&Ts in the sideboard. Reason I ask is that it feels like, if we need to reanimate multiple times in a game, I'm wondering whether eight is sufficient.

What control suite are people running at this point? I'd been running only 4x Force, 3x Thoughtseize mainboard, but I've started to run into problems against heavy control, so I cut my three Researchers for Dazes. Won't get to test that configuration for a while, so I'm interested in any input and info on what's good. Delvers seem like a difficult matchup at this point; there's so much redundancy to their countermagic.

Venomous72
04-14-2017, 08:55 AM
Is there a consensus on the number of reanimation cards we should be running at this stage? I cut back my mainboard stuff to the core eight (quads of Reanimate and Exhume) with two S&Ts in the sideboard. Reason I ask is that it feels like, if we need to reanimate multiple times in a game, I'm wondering whether eight is sufficient.

What control suite are people running at this point? I'd been running only 4x Force, 3x Thoughtseize mainboard, but I've started to run into problems against heavy control, so I cut my three Researchers for Dazes. Won't get to test that configuration for a while, so I'm interested in any input and info on what's good. Delvers seem like a difficult matchup at this point; there's so much redundancy to their countermagic.

I highly recommend 3x Daze and 4x Force in the mainboard. My disruption suite is:

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality

CB was insane last week and I could see myself cutting my mainboard Show and Tell for another one, but not sure yet.

Ephemeron
04-14-2017, 10:11 AM
I highly recommend 3x Daze and 4x Force in the mainboard. My disruption suite is:

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality

CB was insane last week and I could see myself cutting my mainboard Show and Tell for another one, but not sure yet.

I'm 4x FoW, 3x Daze, 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Collective Brutality and I've been loving it (0 Show and Tell in my 75, I just don't like the card honestly). CB is a little slow but it's so good against DRS and Miracles which are basically the two pillars of the format right now. I cant ever see going below 2 in my total 75.

Venomous72
04-14-2017, 10:32 AM
I'm 4x FoW, 3x Daze, 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Collective Brutality and I've been loving it (0 Show and Tell in my 75, I just don't like the card honestly). CB is a little slow but it's so good against DRS and Miracles which are basically the two pillars of the format right now. I cant ever see going below 2 in my total 75.

Yeah I have thought about the 2x CB but Show and Tell has saved my butt so many times. Last week I beat turn 1 Grafdiggers by brainstorming into Show and Tell Griselbrand, drew 7, then Show and Tell Grave Titan.

Show and Tell is actually decent against Miracles since the CounterTop lock usually misses it.

Ronald Deuce
04-17-2017, 02:58 PM
I've found Show and Tell to be a card that looks a lot less useful than it ends up being. It's been really good against decks like Delver, where you often have to build up your manabase and bait countermagic with reanimation spells and Entombs, and also where the opponent probably doesn't have anything comparable to cheat into play and is relying on Deathrite Shaman to do a lot of work.

Hank Zhong
04-17-2017, 03:34 PM
I've found Show and Tell to be a card that looks a lot less useful than it ends up being. It's been really good against decks like Delver, where you often have to build up your manabase and bait countermagic with reanimation spells and Entombs, and also where the opponent probably doesn't have anything comparable to cheat into play and is relying on Deathrite Shaman to do a lot of work.

Agreed, especially the U/B/g builds playing 3-4 S&T in the 75. I remembered my top 16 scg open list from 3 years ago - it's a straight U/B build that maximizes S&T with 2 city of traitors in the side, along with a healthy basic land count. The issue with S&T against delver is it's so hard to resolve between daze, fow, pierce, fluster, pyroblast backed up by wasteland and discard occasionally. The higher mana count makes it very easy to play around all the tax counters.

Cpt-Qc
04-24-2017, 12:54 PM
As you all probably saw the news, I think one question needs to be asked: Is Green for decay even necessary anymore?

Since there is no Counterbalance to lock us out, should we transition to mostly bounce spells and Collective Brutality for drs decks? Most of the BUG decks play some amount of wasteland and I never really liked bringing in decays against them so we could free up 3 sideboard slots while also making our manabase stronger.

With one less prime White deck in the meta, I think it's safe to say that RIP will be even less of a problem (even if BR pretty much chased that away). We can now focus on discard and drs hate, both of which are available in Collective Brutality.

FZA
04-24-2017, 01:24 PM
As you all probably saw the news, I think one question needs to be asked: Is Green for decay even necessary anymore?

Since there is no Counterbalance to lock us out, should we transition to mostly bounce spells and Collective Brutality for drs decks? Most of the BUG decks play some amount of wasteland and I never really liked bringing in decays against them so we could free up 3 sideboard slots while also making our manabase stronger.

With one less prime White deck in the meta, I think it's safe to say that RIP will be even less of a problem (even if BR pretty much chased that away). We can now focus on discard and drs hate, both of which are available in Collective Brutality.

Brutality and Pithing Needle are both better answers to DRS than Decay, IMO. Needle is especially good since it blanks multiple copies and they're likely to not have decays of their own to deal with it post-board.

I also think Inkwell Leviathan gains some points as a reanimation target, now that Terminus is no longer a thing it might once again be the go-to target against control decks (other than Griselbrand).

Overall the Miracles ban seems to be a good thing for Reanimator, even though it wasn't exactly a terrible matchup.

Ephemeron
04-24-2017, 01:31 PM
As you all probably saw the news, I think one question needs to be asked: Is Green for decay even necessary anymore?

Since there is no Counterbalance to lock us out, should we transition to mostly bounce spells and Collective Brutality for drs decks? Most of the BUG decks play some amount of wasteland and I never really liked bringing in decays against them so we could free up 3 sideboard slots while also making our manabase stronger.

With one less prime White deck in the meta, I think it's safe to say that RIP will be even less of a problem (even if BR pretty much chased that away). We can now focus on discard and drs hate, both of which are available in Collective Brutality.

That's a super interesting thought and my gut reaction is probably yes, you can drop green unless you know your meta is chock full of chalice of the void. Even then I'll probably just play a couple Echoing Truth to be a catch-all that also handles stupid Leyline of the Void. Even if Stoneblade makes a comeback, I cant imagine they'll be playing much RiP.

Good luck fellow disciples of Griselbrand! May your metas become overflowing with Elves.

Cpt-Qc
04-24-2017, 01:33 PM
Brutality and Pithing Needle are both better answers to DRS than Decay, IMO. Needle is especially good since it blanks multiple copies and they're likely to not have decays of their own to deal with it post-board.

I also think Inkwell Leviathan gains some points as a reanimation target, now that Terminus is no longer a thing it might once again be the go-to target against control decks (other than Griselbrand).

Overall the Miracles ban seems to be a good thing for Reanimator, even though it wasn't exactly a terrible matchup.

exactly my thinking... if there are better removal alternatives, why even bother with decay anymore? It still takes care of Cage and RIP I guess but we don't see these cards very often anyway.


That's a super interesting thought and my gut reaction is probably yes, you can drop green unless you know your meta is chock full of chalice of the void. Even then I'll probably just play a couple Echoing Truth to be a catch-all that also handles stupid Leyline of the Void. Even if Stoneblade makes a comeback, I cant imagine they'll be playing much RiP.

Good luck fellow disciples of Griselbrand! May your metas become overflowing with Elves.

Elves was already on the rise before, this is gonna be one hell of a feast for Griselfriends :D

crowe_1
04-24-2017, 01:55 PM
Abrupt Decay isn't necessary anymore IMO. There has never been any Miracles in my area (aside from myself) and I have been fine with Echoing Truths and, more recently, Show and Tell.

What does kind of suck for us is that there is now almost no reason for fair decks not to play Deathrite Shaman. It will potentially be even more omnipresent than it already is.

PirateKing
04-24-2017, 02:11 PM
I'm leaning to agree that Abrupt Decay isn't needed now, but I've also never had much difficulty in casting is either, and I'm not sure I can think of a catchall to offer some equivalency. Echoing Truth is close, but puts you into a narrow window to have the nuts to back it up right then, which was always hard in a BUGy world where holding onto it while waiting for the other half of your combo gets you killed by a Thoughtseize.
I'm tempted to move even harder into red to pull more from Izzet Charm and maybe even Pyroclasm to make sure the swarm of annoying x/2s don't hold me back. I've really enjoyed Sulfur Elemental in the board against D&T, it's safe to entomb if you suspect Containment Priest, you won't lose a silver bullet like Inkwell Leviathan, but he's not uncastable.

Cpt-Qc
04-24-2017, 02:19 PM
Abrupt Decay isn't necessary anymore IMO. There has never been any Miracles in my area (aside from myself) and I have been fine with Echoing Truths and, more recently, Show and Tell.

What does kind of suck for us is that there is now almost no reason for fair decks not to play Deathrite Shaman. It will potentially be even more omnipresent than it already is.

While it's true there will probably be an uptick in drs, there will also be one in combo decks. In the end I think they will even each other out so there is no need to worry.

Also, drs is way easier to play around than surgical so I'm happy if people think they are safer when they truly aren't.

RNGesus
04-25-2017, 05:41 AM
Now with Miracles gone other decks will have a lot more sideboard space, I am interested in seeing if BR reanimator will still hold its competitiveness, ,or even UB for that matter.


Without the Counterbalance I feel that E.Truth is a better catch-all, But uncounterability of A.Decay will always be relevant.

PirateKing
04-25-2017, 08:47 AM
So what do we think the distribution of graveyard enemies will be in the coming months?

Deathrite Shaman/Scavenging Ooze I think will increase in prevalence as already strong BUG decks exploit the vacuum. Heard lots of talk about people dusting off Maverick lists.
Rest in Peace will diminish as the format speeds up a bit. It was already on the decline with BR Reanimator being deemed too fast for RiP to be effective. This could go the total opposite of DRS decks are everywhere and people look for ways to shut that off entirely. But beyond D&T I'm not sure what mainstream decks would pick it as their hate of choice.
Grafdigger's Cage/Colorless Hate could increase if decks unsplash for Abrupt Decay and find themselves in need of easy to include answers. Also heard lots of talk about Elves being a thing now, Cage offers good coverage against them as well.
Surgical Extraction/Extirpate I'm not sure about. I feel like lists that had them already will keep them, but I'm just not sure where the trend is moving.
Thoughts?

nyrambler
04-25-2017, 11:31 AM
I have decided that with Counterbalance out, our need for Abrupt Decay isn't strong enough to splash green for, as I feel that Wasteland decks will be on the rise, we probably want a few more basics. By cutting Decay, we need to figure out answers to cards like Cage and Rest in Peace, as those are the only hate cards that don't get tagged by a Fatal Push but do get hit by Decay.

This is the list I have decided on trying at the next few events.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Show and Tell
4 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Lotus Petal

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sideboard
4 Fatal Push
1 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
1 Massacre
1 Coffin Purge
2 Duress
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Blazing Archon

Hank Zhong
04-26-2017, 10:17 AM
I have decided that with Counterbalance out, our need for Abrupt Decay isn't strong enough to splash green for, as I feel that Wasteland decks will be on the rise, we probably want a few more basics. By cutting Decay, we need to figure out answers to cards like Cage and Rest in Peace, as those are the only hate cards that don't get tagged by a Fatal Push but do get hit by Decay.

This is the list I have decided on trying at the next few events.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Show and Tell
4 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Lotus Petal

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sideboard
4 Fatal Push
1 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
1 Massacre
1 Coffin Purge
2 Duress
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Blazing Archon

I've basically come to the same conclusion. My maindeck is very close to yours. For the SB I like having at least 2 truth to deal with chalice/rip/cage. 4 fatal is way too much, 2 should be sufficient. spell pierce is a much better MD card, SB cards need to be more impactful.

I like having a full set of S&T in the 75, with 2 cities to support them and fight taxing counters from delver, so something like this:

2 fatal push
2 echoing truth
2 needle
3 S&T
2 city of traitors (actually not terrible vs. d&t)
2 duress
1 massacre
1 flexslot - prob an extra fatty depending on the meta.


I'll be testing out this version in the coming weeks and tweak it appropriately.

Cpt-Qc
04-26-2017, 01:35 PM
If you have 2 cities then it's fine to have the full 4 of SnT. If not, then you definitely cannot go above 3.

Cpt-Qc
04-26-2017, 05:53 PM
Not sure if we can reliably use it but there is a new bounce spell that's interesting in amonkhet.

Winds of Rebuke: :1::u:, instant, Bounce target nonland permanent then each player mills 2.

Ephemeron
04-27-2017, 10:01 AM
This is my updated list right now, a little bit of a different take than the last two posted:

2x Swamp
1x Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs

3x Griselbrand
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norn
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Grave Titan

4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
3x Lotus Petal
4x Force of Will
3x Daze

Sideboard

2x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
2x Fatal Push
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Pithing Needle
2x Massacre
2x Show and Tell
1x Inkwell Leviathan

Hank Zhong
04-27-2017, 10:18 AM
Not sure if we can reliably use it but there is a new bounce spell that's interesting in amonkhet.

Winds of Rebuke: :1::u:, instant, Bounce target nonland permanent then each player mills 2.

I like it, you can un-BS lock yourself, and put fatties back on top to be milled.

CptHaddock
05-01-2017, 09:42 AM
With :g: becoming less needed as a splash how viable does a :r: splash become? I know that some of you were/still are experimenting with it. Seems like the biggest gains are pyroclasm type board wipes, blast effects and izzet charm. Are these effects worth diluting the manabase again?

PirateKing
05-01-2017, 10:26 AM
With :g: becoming less needed as a splash how viable does a :r: splash become? I know that some of you were/still are experimenting with it. Seems like the biggest gains are pyroclasm type board wipes, blast effects and izzet charm. Are these effects worth diluting the manabase again?

I was having par success with a BUrg build. Through my experience, the only times I got punished felt like it would have happened under a normal 3 color build. Examples like keeping a 1 land hand with Brainstorms and maybe combo pieces, losing your land to wasteland and the Brainstorm not showing you anything. Blood Moon was a pain, I guess with a clean UB build and Lotus Petals you're safer to that avenue of play from your opponent.
How pronounced were the detriments to your diluted manabase?