Drain Gush Control

[Zalren]

So I recently have been getting into Vintage. I just recently bought all the power I needed. I came up with this abomination of a deck. I do not get to playtest due to family but I would like some help.


Land - 15
1 x Library of Alexandria
4 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Island
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
1 x Volcanic Island

Planeswalkers - 3
1 x Chandra, the Firebrand
1 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Creatures - 1
1 x Inkwell Leviathan

Spells - 41
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Time Vault
1 x Voltaic Key
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
1 x Brainstorm
1 x Ponder
1 x Merchant Scroll
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Gifts Ungiven
1 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Tinker
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Fastbond
1 x Regrowth
1 x Empty the Warrens
4 x Gush
4 x Mana Drain
4 x Mental Misstep
4 x Force of Will

I have always been a fan of Mana Drain and definitely wanted to play a drain control type deck. Gush seems like the best draw spell with exception to Necropotence, alas only 1 is allowed so I went with Gush. Planeswalkers, Inkwell, and EtW are the kill conditions. Chandra's -2 + Recall or Time Walk just makes me giddy.

I just wanted to throw it out there and see what improvements can be made.

[TheElvishPiper]

Havent checked the Vintage section here in a while, but I have played a ton of Gush variations.

This is my current list:

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Fastbond

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Gush
1 Flusterstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Preordain

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
4 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer


The list has been insanely consistent, and fairly fast. It can also play the long game with some good controlling aspects. I used to play a storm variant with Timetwister and Tendrils of Agony, but Vault/Key has been better against Workshops for me.

[Zalren]

Awesome thanks for the list! I am curious, why no Fastbond? I thought that was key to Gush decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Awesome thanks for the list! I am curious, why no Fastbond? I thought that was key to Gush decks.

I'm interested as well. Where is the Fastbond?

[TheElvishPiper]

I'm interested as well. Where is the Fastbond?

I was tired when I typed up the list; there is definitely a fastbond in my deck!

[DragoFireheart]

I was tired when I typed up the list; there is definitely a fastbond in my deck!

Ah, there it is.

I'm not crazy about Tinker-Robot because a lot of Vintage decks are now actually keeping some removal handy for it. Have you thought aobut maybe trying to fit Griselbrand in there somewhere?

[TheElvishPiper]

Ah, there it is.

I'm not crazy about Tinker-Robot because a lot of Vintage decks are now actually keeping some removal handy for it. Have you thought aobut maybe trying to fit Griselbrand in there somewhere?

If I was going to play Griselbrand, I would just play oath or burning long!

[DragoFireheart]

If I was going to play Griselbrand, I would just play oath or burning long!

You could play Gush Oath Griselbrand.

[nedleeds]

I think Chandra is getting a little cute. With all the tutors I think I'd want access to Hurkyl's Recall ... if you add that it's pretty hard not to add Mana Vault given some of the big 3 holes in several cards in your deck.

[Koby]

Now that Regrowth is unrestricted, does this deck want to run 2-4?

[John Cox]

Now that Regrowth is unrestricted, does this deck want to run 2-4?
Ideally 4 in place of some disruption, if something gets countered you can just regrowth it so I would start there.

[phazonmutant]

I've been dicking around with a Tendrils / Drain / Gush / Talrand list based on one off TCDecks. It has Drain and Gush, does that count as Drain Gush Control?

In any case, Talrand has been sweet (and really good!) and Tendrils has won me some games. I got to time walk 4 times in a row with Regrowths so that was sweet.

[Koby]

I think some older lists used to Empty the Warrens for the same effect, then Time Walk to effectively use it like Tendrils. Talrand seems very much better. It looks more grindy than the Tendrils lists, while being better against Shops as well.

[nedleeds]

Internets lists hardly ran 1 Regrowth. Don't understand why people would suddenly run it, unless it was a mistake to not run it before and there was a lemming effect.

[Koby]

Getting to cast Ancestral Recall 3+ times is much better than getting to only cast it twice via Snapcaster Mage. Even better, Snapcasting a Regrowth on Ancestral for more value. I think in a Gush deck, there stands a very good reason to run 3+ Regrowths right now, provided you don't go up against a Workshop matchup.

[rooneg]

Getting to cast Ancestral Recall 3+ times is much better than getting to only cast it twice via Snapcaster Mage. Even better, Snapcasting a Regrowth on Ancestral for more value. I think in a Gush deck, there stands a very good reason to run 3+ Regrowths right now, provided you don't go up against a Workshop matchup.
That's the question. Sure you can build a strong gush storm deck w/ 3 or 4 Regrowths, but can you build one that doesn't roll over and die to Shops? I think that's significantly less clear. As I understand it, Workshop decks are what pushed Gush out of the NE US metagame, if that's true how does adding Regrowth make the deck a better option if you still have to cross your fingers and hope you don't play against Workshops?

[Koby]

That's the question. Sure you can build a strong gush storm deck w/ 3 or 4 Regrowths, but can you build one that doesn't roll over and die to Shops? I think that's significantly less clear. As I understand it, Workshop decks are what pushed Gush out of the NE US metagame, if that's true how does adding Regrowth make the deck a better option if you still have to cross your fingers and hope you don't play against Workshops?

Indeed, that's the challenge. I imagine that such builds would move towards less splash win-condition and instead opt for more Red splashes, including but not limited to:

Ancient Grudge
Lightning Bolt
Trygon Predator
Ingot Chewer (SB)

And instead of running Tendrils, play Empty the Warrens which allows the deck to not have to go "full in" to generate a lethal storm count. The Ancient Grudge approach has been quite popular in the past with such Gush Control decks too.

[nedleeds]

Lotus Cobra maybe ... He can get nuts fast

[rooneg]

Indeed, that's the challenge. I imagine that such builds would move towards less splash win-condition and instead opt for more Red splashes, including but not limited to:

Ancient Grudge
Lightning Bolt
Trygon Predator
Ingot Chewer (SB)

And instead of running Tendrils, play Empty the Warrens which allows the deck to not have to go "full in" to generate a lethal storm count. The Ancient Grudge approach has been quite popular in the past with such Gush Control decks too.
It's an interesting question. Splashing red (either for Grudge/Bolt/Chewer or for Empty) certainly gives you a lot of tools, but it opens you up even more to wasteland. There's always the other direction, leaning more towards blue, with basic islands and only light splashes of green (Fastbond + Regrowth) and black (Vampiric and Demonic Tutor, mostly to find Fastbond). You'd want to be maindecking blue anti-shop stuff, hurkyl's, rebuild, steel sabotage, etc. The kill could be Talrand, with Jace backup, Trygon in the board.

[phazonmutant]

It's an interesting question. Splashing red (either for Grudge/Bolt/Chewer or for Empty) certainly gives you a lot of tools, but it opens you up even more to wasteland. There's always the other direction, leaning more towards blue, with basic islands and only light splashes of green (Fastbond + Regrowth) and black (Vampiric and Demonic Tutor, mostly to find Fastbond). You'd want to be maindecking blue anti-shop stuff, hurkyl's, rebuild, steel sabotage, etc. The kill could be Talrand, with Jace backup, Trygon in the board.

Yeah, that's the direction I was heading based on a deck that did well over in Europe. It had 3 basic Island in the main which I really liked, with a couple trops and seas. The board was like 1 Forest, 4 Triangular Men, 3 Nature's Claim. I consistently get smashed by Shops with every deck I play so I'm certain that I don't know how to play the U vs. Shops matchup, but it seems like that + Force + Drain should be enough to slow them down...

Also the list I saw had 3 Repeal main. That card has been very good in pretty much every matchup.



And instead of running Tendrils, play Empty the Warrens which allows the deck to not have to go "full in" to generate a lethal storm count. The Ancient Grudge approach has been quite popular in the past with such Gush Control decks too.

I found that generating lethal storm really wasn't the issue, making BB was. But, Gush has this handy way of allowing you to pick up your Sea... I'm not saying that Empty is wrong, but Tendrils has been pretty clutch as a way to win against lethal on board.


Do you guys feel that the deck wants 2, 3, or 4 Jaces? Jace is soooooo good in Vintage, but sometimes I've felt a bit glutted at 4s with a Talrand, a Tendrils, and 3 Jace. Drain does help with that though.

[phazonmutant]

I 4-0'd the Vintage 10-man tournament that we did at GP Vegas, so I thought I'd write a little report. Big props to Koby for organizing the thing, I think I may have caught the vintage bug...

First, the list:
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
3 Mana Drain
2 Repeal
4 Gush
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Regrowth
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Black Lotus

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
3 Trygon Predator
1 Forest
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction

Wow, looking back on this decklist, I realized that I forgot a bunch of cards... Kinda built it in a hurry. I forgot to put in the Tendrils (which I didn't realize until round 3) and Sol Ring. Oops. I think the cuts might be Snapcaster, he's a bit underwhelming (although he was relevant against Dredge). One Mana Drain might be right too.

Round 1 - Grixis Control
Game 1 I was able to repeal Bob, then land Jace and bounce Bob, then play Talrand and bounce Bob, then Time Walk a bunch and win. Game 2 he ran away with Dark Confidant. I think Game 3 I won off Gush-Bond into lots of value.
1-0

Round 2 - The Deck
He was playing a bit of a homebrew. We had some back-and-forth jockeying, but he conceeded to Yawgs Will with a bunch of goodies in grave game 1. Game 2 I got a quick Gush-Bond with Yawgs Will and Time Walk in hand.
2-0

Round 3 - Grixis Control
This round was boring because he basically didn't play magic while I Time Walked a lot. None of his cards seemed to be relevant. Killed him with Talrand and 2-3 extra turns both games. Also discovered I didn't have Tendrils in my deck after I cast Vampiric Tutor to find it with storm at like 30.
3-0

Round 4 - Dredge
He was a new dredge player, so my hate was able to take over. Game 1 he just rolled me, but games 2 and 3 I had the t0 Leyline with either backup hate or plenty of countermagic. Game 2 was sweet because I killed him with a Snapcaster in his 2/1-for-2 mode while I sat on Leyline and Drains.
4-0

Playing Vintage was awesome. The blue mirrors were a ton of fun and for the most part very interactive. I got to durdle around with Koby the previous day and it seemed like the Minus-6 vs. Tropical Storm matchup was close, possibly in his favor, game 1. I know it's not super pimp, but playing with even Collector's Edition power felt good. It's just so much more visceral to have real cards in your hand instead of some sharpied piece of dog shit.

This deck seems like the real deal. It absolutely crushes the blue mirror - none of them even felt especially close. Talrand is bonkers good, but you do have to be careful about just running him out there - one time they had the removal, the other time I got to untap and win. I never felt like I wanted Tinker - people are prepared to answer the Robots, Vault-Key is a 2-card combo, and I countered a couple Tinkers that had sac'd mana sources and left my opponents stumbling.
I did some testing against MUD and it seems like the 9 cards I'm bringing in might be just enough to turn the overall matchup around to roughly even. I'd be curious to see how the fish or hatebears matchups are. Repeal and Abrupt Decay along with a stable manabase might be enough to help, and I don't think they can realistically beat Talrand.

Smmenen said on his So Many Insane Plays podcast that he fears Regrowthing Time Walks might break the format, and if a Vintage newb like me can crush with an untuned list, I can definitely see it.

edit - forgot Merchant Scroll in the decklist :rolleyes:

[lordofthepit]

I 4-0'd the Vintage 10-man tournament that we did at GP Vegas, so I thought I'd write a little report. Big props to Koby for organizing the thing, I think I may have caught the vintage bug...

First, the list:
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
3 Mana Drain
2 Repeal
4 Gush
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Regrowth
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Black Lotus

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
3 Trygon Predator
1 Forest
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction

Wow, looking back on this decklist, I realized that I forgot a bunch of cards... Kinda built it in a hurry. I forgot to put in the Tendrils (which I didn't realize until round 3) and Sol Ring. Oops. I think the cuts might be Snapcaster, he's a bit underwhelming (although he was relevant against Dredge). One Mana Drain might be right too.

Round 1 - Grixis Control
Game 1 I was able to repeal Bob, then land Jace and bounce Bob, then play Talrand and bounce Bob, then Time Walk a bunch and win. Game 2 he ran away with Dark Confidant. I think Game 3 I won off Gush-Bond into lots of value.
1-0

Round 2 - The Deck
He was playing a bit of a homebrew. We had some back-and-forth jockeying, but he conceeded to Yawgs Will with a bunch of goodies in grave game 1. Game 2 I got a quick Gush-Bond with Yawgs Will and Time Walk in hand.
2-0

Round 3 - Grixis Control
This round was boring because he basically didn't play magic while I Time Walked a lot. None of his cards seemed to be relevant. Killed him with Talrand and 2-3 extra turns both games. Also discovered I didn't have Tendrils in my deck after I cast Vampiric Tutor to find it with storm at like 30.
3-0

Round 4 - Dredge
He was a new dredge player, so my hate was able to take over. Game 1 he just rolled me, but games 2 and 3 I had the t0 Leyline with either backup hate or plenty of countermagic. Game 2 was sweet because I killed him with a Snapcaster in his 2/1-for-2 mode while I sat on Leyline and Drains.
4-0

Playing Vintage was awesome. The blue mirrors were a ton of fun and for the most part very interactive. I got to durdle around with Koby the previous day and it seemed like the Minus-6 vs. Tropical Storm matchup was close, possibly in his favor, game 1. I know it's not super pimp, but playing with even Collector's Edition power felt good. It's just so much more visceral to have real cards in your hand instead of some sharpied piece of dog shit.

This deck seems like the real deal. It absolutely crushes the blue mirror - none of them even felt especially close. Talrand is bonkers good, but you do have to be careful about just running him out there - one time they had the removal, the other time I got to untap and win. I never felt like I wanted Tinker - people are prepared to answer the Robots, Vault-Key is a 2-card combo, and I countered a couple Tinkers that had sac'd mana sources and left my opponents stumbling.
I did some testing against MUD and it seems like the 9 cards I'm bringing in might be just enough to turn the overall matchup around to roughly even. I'd be curious to see how the fish or hatebears matchups are. Repeal and Abrupt Decay along with a stable manabase might be enough to help, and I don't think they can realistically beat Talrand.

Smmenen said on his So Many Insane Plays podcast that he fears Regrowthing Time Walks might break the format, and if a Vintage newb like me can crush with an untuned list, I can definitely see it.

Would it be worthwhile to make room for one Gifts Ungiven, which is pretty bonkers with Regrowth?

[phazonmutant]

Would it be worthwhile to make room for one Gifts Ungiven, which is pretty bonkers with Regrowth?

Worth trying out. What's the pile going to be, like Yawg's Will, Regrowth, and two bombs? Seems sweet.

[Arianrhod]

This is where I'm at for the moment, working on something similar. I played Tezzerator for quite a while, but decided that it wasn't quite where I wanted to be. So, I took the best parts of Tezz and hybridized it with Gush Control / Drain Tendrils. This and a bit of tweaking brought me to the following list:

2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Opal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Fastbond

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Regrowth
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

SB: 4 Oath of Druids
SB: 1 Forbidden Orchard
SB: 1 Dragon's Breath

SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Hellkite Tyrant
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Steel Sabotage
SB: 1 Annul
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay


I'm very much still tuning, but that's my latest list. I'm planning on running it in an event on Saturday at Mythic Games, and if I do well there, I'll probably try to run it back next weekend in a tournament at Bloomsburg for a Mox Emerald. Thoughts and criticisms are very welcome -- especially with regards to the 5 non-Oath sideboard slots. I like having the Oath board for Shops, Dredge, and Fish, then the other five slots are kind of confusing as to their purpose. Right now they're just like "generic vintage goodstuff" sideboard options...but I'm not sure if they're correct. Like I could see making room for like a pair of Flusterstorms for vs Burning Long, for example...maybe take out the Annul and the Steel Sabo for then? I'm not sure.

Oh, and @Greg, I have a lot of things to do with Gifts in my particular list, but just in general, I think that one of the best piles is for Vault/Key/Regrowth/Will, since that pile generally wins on the spot assuming you have the mana. Gifting for like A-Call, Regrowth, Yawg, Lotus is a solid pile as well (and one that works for your list, as well as mine).

[phazonmutant]

<list>

I'm very much still tuning, but that's my latest list. I'm planning on running it in an event on Saturday at Mythic Games, and if I do well there, I'll probably try to run it back next weekend in a tournament at Bloomsburg for a Mox Emerald. Thoughts and criticisms are very welcome -- especially with regards to the 5 non-Oath sideboard slots. I like having the Oath board for Shops, Dredge, and Fish, then the other five slots are kind of confusing as to their purpose. Right now they're just like "generic vintage goodstuff" sideboard options...but I'm not sure if they're correct. Like I could see making room for like a pair of Flusterstorms for vs Burning Long, for example...maybe take out the Annul and the Steel Sabo for then? I'm not sure.

Oh, and @Greg, I have a lot of things to do with Gifts in my particular list, but just in general, I think that one of the best piles is for Vault/Key/Regrowth/Will, since that pile generally wins on the spot assuming you have the mana. Gifting for like A-Call, Regrowth, Yawg, Lotus is a solid pile as well (and one that works for your list, as well as mine).

Some suggestions for the list:
Regrowth is really nuts, I'm not making this up. I think the Gush archetype should always play more than 1. Mind's Desire is an awesome card, but I don't think that it really fits in a combo-control sort of list. Also, I'm pretty skeptical of 4 Drains and no Flusterstorms or even Missteps main. Rebuild is a good card for building storm, but it seems pretty unnecessary to have 2 pieces of artifact bounce maindeck - you're still probably not beating Shops without boarding. So I'd suggest something like -1 Rebuild, -1 Mind's Desire, -1 Mana Drain, +1 Regrowth, +1 Misstep, +1 Flusterstorm to start with.
I was always very happy with Preordain and Talrands to add more angles of attack and more consistency, but maybe your build of just having infinite business and draw spells works too.

What's the point of the Oath sideboard? I've seen it before but in my (very limited!) experience playing Oath, Shops could just keep you from casting Oath a decent amount of the time and Dredge will kill you on the play before you trigger Oath (even assuming you get it down turn 1). Like...don't those decks just need dedicated hate? As far as the rest of the board, you're going to want Missteps and Flusterstorms for Long and the blue Mirrors, and probably some Repeals or Abrupt Decays for hatebears. That pretty much fills up those slots.

[Arianrhod]

Some suggestions for the list:
Regrowth is really nuts, I'm not making this up. I think the Gush archetype should always play more than 1. Mind's Desire is an awesome card, but I don't think that it really fits in a combo-control sort of list. Also, I'm pretty skeptical of 4 Drains and no Flusterstorms or even Missteps main. Rebuild is a good card for building storm, but it seems pretty unnecessary to have 2 pieces of artifact bounce maindeck - you're still probably not beating Shops without boarding. So I'd suggest something like -1 Rebuild, -1 Mind's Desire, -1 Mana Drain, +1 Regrowth, +1 Misstep, +1 Flusterstorm to start with.
I was always very happy with Preordain and Talrands to add more angles of attack and more consistency, but maybe your build of just having infinite business and draw spells works too.

What's the point of the Oath sideboard? I've seen it before but in my (very limited!) experience playing Oath, Shops could just keep you from casting Oath a decent amount of the time and Dredge will kill you on the play before you trigger Oath (even assuming you get it down turn 1). Like...don't those decks just need dedicated hate? As far as the rest of the board, you're going to want Missteps and Flusterstorms for Long and the blue Mirrors, and probably some Repeals or Abrupt Decays for hatebears. That pretty much fills up those slots.

What number of Regrowth is good, you think? 2, 3?

Desire has been decent so far, actually. The idea is that when you get it, you just sandbag it until you can chain together 4-5 spells, then fire it off. I won't say that it's like ASTONISHING like in TPS, say, but it's basically a really solid draw spell. Maybe I take it the rest of the way and storm off with it....or maybe I just use it for value and get to draw a bunch of cards and grow my board state. With the Drains + Tolarian, its mana cost isn't really hard to get to even without Rituals.

Cut Rebuild, or Hurks, you think? I can agree with only really needing one or the other. The cycling on Rebuild hasn't been terribly relevant so far...have you had any differing experiences?

I was getting kind of flooded on Drains, so I can agree with trimming one. I'm not sure which of Misstep, Snare, Pierce, or Fluster would be the best option. I'm a big fan of Snare -- hits Spheres, Oaths, most fish, Drains, Standstills, Time Vault, and a few other corner cases. But obviously Fluster and Pierce both have their values as well....not sure.

The Oath board has actually been very solid for me....it's a holdover from when I was running Tezz, and it's still pretty good now. While sometimes Shops can just lock you off of dropping Oath, you generally aren't going to win those games anyway. Oath gives you a plan that's much more likely to work vs them than either the storm engines or planeswalkers (or even Vault/Key) is. You just drop an Oath and sit on it. That prevents them from playing Lodestones, which lowers their sphere count, and basically puts them on the manland plan...which then buys you the time to be able to assemble something else (or to find the 1-of Orchard to give them a token). Then you Oath up either Emmy or Tyrant, pref with haste, and just kill them. Dredge is a bit chancier, but historically, I've usually been able to resolve an Oath trigger vs them. I could see putting in either a 2nd Yixlid, or cutting the 1st Yixlid in favor of a Blazing Archon. I'm not convinced that Yixlid does enough should you happen to Oath into him, although he's fine as hate if you run more copies. Dredge is basically completely incapable of beating Elesh, should she happen. I agree that the explosive t2 hands will still kill you, but I don't think that the deck has the ability to protect a Leyline of the Void sufficiently to run it. I guess the same thing could be said for Oath. Meh. It's mostly there for Fish and Shops. I'm probably deluding myself into thinking that it's good enough vs Dredge when it actually isn't.

[Koby]

I believe the idea of Oath in the Sb is to combat Shops. Chalice @ 1 and Resistors absolutely destroy this deck. Having additional mana sources helps against this matchup too. With the new rules, even Metamorph can't reliably stop Griselbrand or Rune-scarred Demon.

[phazonmutant]

What number of Regrowth is good, you think? 2, 3?
I'm thinking 3 is a good number. There's so many tutors and powerful cards that pre-combo I've used Regrowth as a 3-mana Concentrate or 4-mana Explore (especially with Jace or Talrand on board!) and it's been more than fine. I could actually see 4 being correct.


Desire has been decent so far, actually. The idea is that when you get it, you just sandbag it until you can chain together 4-5 spells, then fire it off. I won't say that it's like ASTONISHING like in TPS, say, but it's basically a really solid draw spell. Maybe I take it the rest of the way and storm off with it....or maybe I just use it for value and get to draw a bunch of cards and grow my board state. With the Drains + Tolarian, its mana cost isn't really hard to get to even without Rituals.
Fair enough, Desire is a really powerful card. I haven't played with it, so take my suggestion there with a grain of salt. That being said, if you're treating it as a somewhat conditional (but powerful!) draw spell, I think your deck already (a) has plenty of those effects with Gush, Thirst, etc, and (b) JACE TMS, GREATER THAN ALL :tongue:


Cut Rebuild, or Hurks, you think? I can agree with only really needing one or the other. The cycling on Rebuild hasn't been terribly relevant so far...have you had any differing experiences?
It seems like Hurkyl's would be better just because it's cheaper. Brainstorm, Jace, and Force will help out with extra U cards in hand.


I was getting kind of flooded on Drains, so I can agree with trimming one. I'm not sure which of Misstep, Snare, Pierce, or Fluster would be the best option. I'm a big fan of Snare -- hits Spheres, Oaths, most fish, Drains, Standstills, Time Vault, and a few other corner cases. But obviously Fluster and Pierce both have their values as well....not sure.
Good point, Snare is a real consideration. A bunch of the decks from the top 8 of the recent vintage tournament in the northeast played 2-3 Snares. Of course, they always complemented that with 2-3 Misstep as well. I don't know what the exact right configuration is, but I suspect that you want more than just Force and Drains - most of the lists have at least 12 pieces of countermagic - 4 Force, 3 Drain, 5-6 1cmc counterspells. I haven't seen anyone run Pierce...not 100% sure why, but I suspect that it's because FS is basically uncounterable and you're banking on using FS to back up a hard counter a lot of the time.


The Oath board has actually been very solid for me....it's a holdover from when I was running Tezz, and it's still pretty good now. While sometimes Shops can just lock you off of dropping Oath, you generally aren't going to win those games anyway. Oath gives you a plan that's much more likely to work vs them than either the storm engines or planeswalkers (or even Vault/Key) is. You just drop an Oath and sit on it. That prevents them from playing Lodestones, which lowers their sphere count, and basically puts them on the manland plan...which then buys you the time to be able to assemble something else (or to find the 1-of Orchard to give them a token). Then you Oath up either Emmy or Tyrant, pref with haste, and just kill them. Dredge is a bit chancier, but historically, I've usually been able to resolve an Oath trigger vs them. I could see putting in either a 2nd Yixlid, or cutting the 1st Yixlid in favor of a Blazing Archon. I'm not convinced that Yixlid does enough should you happen to Oath into him, although he's fine as hate if you run more copies. Dredge is basically completely incapable of beating Elesh, should she happen. I agree that the explosive t2 hands will still kill you, but I don't think that the deck has the ability to protect a Leyline of the Void sufficiently to run it. I guess the same thing could be said for Oath. Meh. It's mostly there for Fish and Shops. I'm probably deluding myself into thinking that it's good enough vs Dredge when it actually isn't.
Oh, ok. Oath definitely seems really sweet...I guess I'd just have to see it in action. I don't have a whole lot of tournament experience, but from the local 4mans or whatever, when I played dredge a couple times I goldfished turn 2 often, and by turn 3 almost always. That being said, if you manage to Oath into Norn or Archon, you're right that their outs are pretty much Chain of Vapor. (sidenote: another reason to add Misstep) But if it's a real plan against Shops and splash hate against Fish, then it seems like a good use of slots. Just keep in mind both get to bring in Cage game 3...


Also, nedleeds and the local crew are going to try to get some vintage action this Saturday, and I'm going to bring a (little)bit of brew. From the previous list, -2 Snapcaster, -1 Preordain, +1 Mystical Tutor, +1 Sol Ring, +2 Lotus Cobra. (a) adding cards that should always have been there, (b) 61 cards, bitch, (c) Lotus Cobra degeneracy :cool:
Trying to find room for Gifts, but I'm not entirely sure that I own a Gifts...

[Dessyreqt]

Your previous list had only 59 cards; was there something else you omitted?

[Arianrhod]

Fair enough, Desire is a really powerful card. I haven't played with it, so take my suggestion there with a grain of salt. That being said, if you're treating it as a somewhat conditional (but powerful!) draw spell, I think your deck already (a) has plenty of those effects with Gush, Thirst, etc, and (b) JACE TMS, GREATER THAN ALL :tongue:

Good point, Snare is a real consideration. A bunch of the decks from the top 8 of the recent vintage tournament in the northeast played 2-3 Snares. Of course, they always complemented that with 2-3 Misstep as well. I don't know what the exact right configuration is, but I suspect that you want more than just Force and Drains - most of the lists have at least 12 pieces of countermagic - 4 Force, 3 Drain, 5-6 1cmc counterspells. I haven't seen anyone run Pierce...not 100% sure why, but I suspect that it's because FS is basically uncounterable and you're banking on using FS to back up a hard counter a lot of the time.


RE Desire -- some of this is my mental state regarding Desire. I tend to regard Desire with the approach of, it's going to brick and I know that it's going to brick, but maybe I'll just win, and hey, even if I brick, I'm still way ahead. Even with 8 counterspells in deck, I seem to be a wizard and flip 2-3 counters, 2-3 lands, and 1-2 draw spells/tutors every time I Desire...so yeah. I look at Desire and say hey, this is a really strong draw engine that has a some% chance of just winning the game on the spot. Time and testing will tell if the slot is actually worth it or not.

As for the counter package, I know for a fact that Drain Tendrils always used to get away with 4 Force 4 Drain, usually with a few more in the board. When I was running Esper Bomberman, and then Tezzerator after it, I had an expansive 12-14 counter suite, and to be honest, I always felt flooded on counters. Like, me and my opponent would have a big huge glorious counterwar, and then he'd topdeck another threat, and I'd just die. I could see going to 9 or maybe 10 if I could find the room, but I consciously chose to be more bomb-heavy. From my limited testing thusfar, that's actually enabled me to win g1 vs Dredge and Shops a few times, and, although I only did one match vs Landstill, it seemed like it was in my favor as long as I wasn't playing like a chump / he wasn't drawing all 4 Standstills (which happened g2). I just ran him out of answers through my threat density.

Edit -- it occurs to me, if nobody is running Pierce and they're all on Fluster/Misstep/Snare, the vintage meta right now is really weak to planeswalkers. Like, REALLY weak. Food for thought.

[phazonmutant]

Your previous list had only 59 cards; was there something else you omitted?

You're right, but I have no idea what it is... I rebuilt the deck from the ground up so I'm pretty sure my current build is 61, so when I get home from work I'll try to find the missing card.

[Arianrhod]

You're right, but I have no idea what it is... I rebuilt the deck from the ground up so I'm pretty sure my current build is 61, so when I get home from work I'll try to find the missing card.

I'm guessing/hoping that it's Merchant Scroll. There's really no reason not to run Scroll in a Gush deck [yes, I realize that I left it out of my list originally....I accidentally copied an older list from Evernote where I derped and had forgotten it existed, lol]

[phazonmutant]

I'm guessing/hoping that it's Merchant Scroll. There's really no reason not to run Scroll in a Gush deck [yes, I realize that I left it out of my list originally....I accidentally copied an older list from Evernote where I derped and had forgotten it existed, lol]

That's it! Thank you!


As for the counter package, I know for a fact that Drain Tendrils always used to get away with 4 Force 4 Drain, usually with a few more in the board. When I was running Esper Bomberman, and then Tezzerator after it, I had an expansive 12-14 counter suite, and to be honest, I always felt flooded on counters. Like, me and my opponent would have a big huge glorious counterwar, and then he'd topdeck another threat, and I'd just die. I could see going to 9 or maybe 10 if I could find the room, but I consciously chose to be more bomb-heavy. From my limited testing thusfar, that's actually enabled me to win g1 vs Dredge and Shops a few times, and, although I only did one match vs Landstill, it seemed like it was in my favor as long as I wasn't playing like a chump / he wasn't drawing all 4 Standstills (which happened g2). I just ran him out of answers through my threat density.

Yeah, I think we're just playing the deck in a different way. I'm trying to be a control deck with a sick draw/combo engine and I think you're going for a more combo route. Not saying one is better than the other. I probably have like 0 shot against dredge g1, true.

[Arianrhod]

That's it! Thank you!



Yeah, I think we're just playing the deck in a different way. I'm trying to be a control deck with a sick draw/combo engine and I think you're going for a more combo route. Not saying one is better than the other. I probably have like 0 shot against dredge g1, true.

yeah, I would agree with that assessment. All blue decks in vintage, IMO (with the exception of landstill) are both combo and control simultaneously. It's just a question of where you want to be on the slider. I'd rather slam down a bunch of bombs, personally -- the philosophy that there are no wrong questions, only wrong answers. I think that my Shops matchup suffers g1 though, which is why I pack the Oath board to really, really shore up G2/G3. I mean I can definitely get lucky vs Shops and just like FoW their first Sphere and then Drain the second, then stay ahead of them for the rest of the game....but it's a lot less likely than your interaction beating them down until they're out of cards, then casually having your way with them. Each approach has differing strengths/weaknesses.

[Arianrhod]

Top 4 at Mythic today -- report to follow probably Monday.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, I didn't have time yesterday to get to this, and I don't have a massive amount of time today, so I'm just gonna highlight r3 of the event (vs U/R Trinketstill), and leave a few thoughts on the list.

Game one I kept a risky hand that had plenty of business and Library (on the draw). I also had two (offcolor) moxen. I decided that Library was strong enough in this matchup that it was worth keeping, and all I needed to do was hit one on-color source and I was going to go completely nuts. Naturally in 4+ turns of active Library + draw for turn, I don't hit a colored source, and I summarily die.

Game two he had a counterwall consisting of triple Force, double Drain, double Misstep...and I still punched through it. I ended up Gifting for Tezz, Regrowth, Fastbond, and Decay (he had a Cage in play, and I wanted to Yawg Will). I ended up getting Fastbond + Cage (3 of my Gushes were in my graveyard already). I Decayed the Cage, used my 4th Gush into Will, then Willed to Desire for approximately a million. He scooped rather than make me go through it, since it was obvious he was dead. We ID'd game 3 since we were the top two seeds and largely playing for who gets the play, and we were pretty sure that we were going to go to time had we played it out.

Then my top 4 match was vs Martello. I mulled to 5 game 2, EoT Hurks into untap, Yawg to end with Oath + Orchard in play. Next turn I took his board with Tyrant and he scooped. Game 3 I mulled to 5 again, and he went t1 Shop + Lotus into Thorn + Lodestone; t2 Metamorph Lodestone, t3 Myr Battlesphere. Yeah..........not getting out of that one.

I'm planning on playing this deck in Bloomsburg for a Mox on Saturday -- not sure if I want to stick with the Oath board or if it actually is just too cute. I'm mostly worried about Fish and Shops -- I want to be sure to shore up those matches solidly. I think that as per the example above vs Landstill, I'm suitably powerful enough to punch through most blue mirrors, and I'm not expecting many Burning Oath decks -- like a pair of Flusters and the Decays should be enough to deal with that. If I abandon the Oath board, I probably should run some actual dredge hate, but I'm not sure what I would want or how much -- as noted, I'm more concerned with beating Shops and Fish, and if I have to give up some percentage points to Dredge, I can live with that.

Any thoughts, gentlemen?

[Dessyreqt]

I actually took this deck to Vintage at Madness in Denton on Saturday. Here's the list I used: http://deck.tk/7glN7lmP

I'm not super familiar with Vintage and its archetypes, so forgive the vagueness of my opponent's decks.

First prize was a white border German Underground Sea, second was a Mana Drain, 3rd and 4th were ~$85 store credit. I already have my Seas and I don't want to wheel and deal it around, so I'm in it for the Drain, not that I expected to win it.

First round I play against a blue deck, don't remember the details exactly. He took the first game and I took the second. We drew the third game.

Second round my opponent starts with a game loss because of a misregistered sideboard. Had this tournament been a couple of weeks later, it wouldn't have been the case. He's also on blue control. Game one we fight over a Strix (bad call on my part) and he eventually gets Key/Vault for the win. Game two he lands Blightsteel and I think I'm boned, but I Gush into two moxes, just enough to play the Jace in my hand. Bounce the colossus, then he dies to planeswalker rule next turn. Eventually I tendrils him out right before he can hardcast Colossus.

Third round my opponent is on another blue deck. I tendrils him game one, game two he sticks a clique, and when I Gift for Will/Regrowth/Lotus/Tendrils. I get Lotus/Tendrils and fail to tendrils for the kill. I did gain 12, though. However, five turns later, clique kills me.

Fourth round, my opponent is on 3sphere. He says he scoops to me before we start, as he has 3 match points and I have 5. What a nice guy. He's an L2 that I worked with at SCG a few weeks prior so maybe that was part of it? Maybe not. Anyway, we play for fun, and he just destroys me game one. Then he destroys me game two. Then I ask for another post sideboard game to see if I can get something to work. I do stick an oath, and pump out Hellkite Tyrant and Emrakul, but his Welder enables him to make copies of my dudes and recur them better and stronger than my recursion.

Fifth round, my opponent is on affinity. I go through tournament math with him, basically that he can't make the cut to top 4, but I can if I win (he has 6 match points, I have 8.) I go T1 Talrand and he just overruns me. Game two I get Oath on the board and he's too afraid to play a creature before I just Tendrils him out. Game three he goes turn one Workshop, Genesis Chamber, Memnite (token), Frogmite (token), go. I go turn one Oath. He gets out Ravager. I oath up Hellkite. He takes a picture of the board at this point. The game is over shortly after that.

So I make top 4! Not sure which seed I was, guessing either 2nd or 3rd, somehow. I tell my T4 opponent that all of my wins were due to my opponents scooping. Well he's not going to scoop to me, of course. He's playing a Painter deck, with (of course) a lot of blue, and maindeck REBs. Well, I let Grindstone through and stop Painter. I also let Time Vault through at some point, and he doesn't have Key. I Tendrils him out eventually. Game two, he starts with Grindstone again, and it does some work. It probably milled about 20 cards, but not Yawgmoth's Will! I Vamp tutor it up at the end of his turn and he tries to mill me in my upkeep. I go gush in response, which he counters, and then I draw of Library in response, now that I had seven cards in hand. We forget to resolve the Grindstone until my mainphase, while I have a Gush on the stack. The judge tells us to resolve it now, and he gets about 8 cards. I combo him out though.

My T2 opponent was watching the match. I turn to him and say "I want the Drain" and he says "I want the Sea." And that was that. We look over each others decks. He's running Burning Long (I believe.) We talk for a bit, turns out he hangs out here as well. He has a three hour drive so he heads out, I linger for a bit and chat with my T4 opponent while he decides on what to get (I remember he got like a Windswept Heath and couple of other cards.) I then stay to chat with the judge, Jim Shuman, about magic and judging in general. I'm an L1 myself, looking to level up within the month (hopefully!) so I really enjoy hearing what any Level 2+ has to say about judging. And Jim is just one of those old guys who has well formed opinions and can just rant on interestingly about them forever. And dammit, I could just listen forever.

All in all a great day. It was my first exposure to Vintage, and I'm really liking the format. Just one tournament, and it's all but supplanted Legacy as my format of choice. I love it because it's highly interactive, despite my friends presuppositions' to the contrary. You can actually play control without it being fringe. And everyone is also playing combo, so when the game gets to the late game, it just ends. There's no grinding away with Mishra's Factories (well, maybe there are, I haven't played Landstill in Vintage, but I played it in Legacy since 2004.) In any case, it's a lovely format, and I hope there is more development in the DFW area for it!

[phazonmutant]

I played a bunch more games against random decks like TES (yeah not very many vintage decks back home in podunktown, Florida). I'm fairly confident that my build is just wrong - there desperately needs to be a way to just win. I'm pretty sure Vault-Key-Tinker are needed, I'd like to fit in a Snapcaster, and Gifts has been good and will be better with the other additions. Tendrils is a card I'd like to add. I'm still not sure I buy the Tezzfather plan, but a bomb-heavy build like Arianrhod's is the direction I'd like to try.

Also, durdled some against Shops on Wednesday. I really need to learn how to play against this matchup because I'm losing after boarding in 9 cards. Maybe I'm overboarding?

[Arianrhod]

Ended 3-2 but outside of the top 8 at the Bloomsburg Mox vintage event (29 players). R1 I smashed landstill. R2 was going fine vs Grixis until he opened with the following sequence in game 3: Mox, Mox, Lotus, Tolarian, Tinker->Blightsteel. On my turn I Vamp'd for bounce and tried to get rid of it, but he had FoW on top of it, and I just died. R3 I crushed Fish. R4 I managed to fail to draw a single non-land card in the entirety of g1 vs Grixis (not kidding. I opened land, land, land, mox, mox, mystical on a mull to 6 and kept...went for Recall, which got Forced, and then never drew a single non-land card. Not even a mox....just LANDS)...then g2 I started off on my back foot with another mull and he had triple FoW. R5 I beat Jace Vault after Tendrilsing for like 40 post-Desire.

I made a few changes to my list since my last posting, including dropping the Oath board and adding in a pair of maindeck Trygon Predators. I also tried sideboarding Thopter/Sword (2/1 split) as an additional threat vs the blue mirror and as a way to break the Fish matchup. It was very solid...kind of surprised that isn't a legit Thopter deck in vintage, with like Skullclamp and shit. Not 100% sure on which direction I'm going with my changes....the only games/matches I lost where those where I just got straight god-handed, and I'm not sure that there's much I can do about that...it's the risk of vintage.

[Viridia]

So there's a vintage tourney coming up in august here and i'm probably going to try and pilot this beauty of a deck.
However i dont own the non legacy staples and probably can't borow them. Luckily there's the 10-proxy rule, but still this leaves me with alot of missing cards.

I do have 1 drain, and playing with the 4 fow, 2 drain, 2 misstep, 2 fluster lists means i only have to proxy 1.
On top of that i'll need the Library, Lotus, recall, walk, time vault, crypt and moxen. Would it be playable just to use the 3 on-color moxen?

[Arianrhod]

I'd say that in order of importance, your proxies should be:

Lotus
Recall
Vault
Library
Time Walk
Crypt
Sapphire
Jet
Emerald
Drain #2

This is assuming that it's only the 200+ stuff that you need to proxy. If you need little stuff like Demonic, Vampiric, Academy, etc....that's gonna be awkward. Basically, I'd say focus around the core of the deck, which is making sure you keep the Tinker/Time Walk engines (which means Crypt and some number of moxen), Vault/Key, and the Gush/Bond/Storm package. If you're needing of more proxies, though, definitely run a much more controlly list -- my bomb-heavier build would probably take too many proxies to get sufficiently rolling. Ironically if you're running a more controlly list, the Drains are probably slightly less important...I'd say you could safely replace the proxy Drains with Counterspell to buy yourself some proxy room. There's no "real" Drain replacement, but there's no actual Demonic/Vampiric/Academy/etc replacement AT ALL, so those are all more important than adding Drains.

I'll note that I'm actually in the same boat personally, but I have a few people that I can usually borrow like 3ish cards from to get to proxy limit.

[Viridia]

I think i own all the other ones for my cube, except the Academy, so i should be fairly good then :-)
Could you post an updated list + SB of what you have atm?

[Arianrhod]

Yup. This is what I ran at Bloomsburg:

2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Opal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Trygon Predator

1 Fastbond

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Regrowth
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain

1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall

SB: 2 Thopter Foundry
SB: 1 Sword of the Meek
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

The Golgari Charms look weird, I know, but they're actually pretty decent vs Mayor Fish, which is popular in Bloomsburg. They also kill Stony Silence, which is the one thing that Fish can do to stop Thopter/Sword. Otherwise, it's pretty much just a pile of broken. Maindeck changes are -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Tezzfather, -1 Flusterstorm for +2 Trygon Predator, +1 Echoing Truth. The Echoing Truth was a hedge against Empty the Warrens, as well as being solid vs Blightsteel (and basically anything else, for that matter). The Triangular Men have been great, and I think have improved basically all matchups. Shops has forgotten why it used to play Maze of Ith in the sideboard; it casually Stone Rains your opponent in the blue mirror by just noming Moxen and guaranteeing that you have more mana resources than your opponent; and, at 2/3, it's big enough to block most non-Goyf Fish, while also punching their Stony Silence/Null Rod right in the dick. I haven't REALLY missed the Petal much, but I have missed the 2nd copy of Tezzfather. Draining into Tezz is a wonderful feeling, and Big Papa is a good way to get free wins. I want to figure out how to put the 2nd copy back in, but I haven't really been able to do so yet.

I should also note that I haven't been working on this deck quite as much the last few days, because I'm pretty convinced that there's something to this whole Thopter/Sword idea....been drafting shells for that instead of tuning this, lol.

[Koby]

I think Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are both unneeded in Gush Bond lists. There is very few colorless mana requirements in this deck, and outside of playing vs MUD (resistors) you don't need those colorless sources. I think the bare minimum is 4 Moxen (no Pearl) + Lotus for acceleration.

[Viridia]

This is what i have so far, only been goldfishing abit, no actual testing.

Mainboard (60)

15 Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

2 Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Trygon Predator



40 Other spells
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fastbond
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Gush
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Regrowth
2 Repeal
1 Sol Ring
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will

3 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker


I did find myself in need of the 4th Mox aswell as getting Tezz stuck in my hand alot, even when using Drain mana, because i'm only playing 2 Drains, so i cut one for the 4th Mox.
Anything i missed so far? :)

[Arianrhod]

Here's where I'm at right now.

3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Trygon Predator

1 Fastbond

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

2 Regrowth
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm

1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall

SB: 2 Thopter Foundry
SB: 1 Sword of the Meek
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Dismember

Gonna run it in a small local tonight -- will comment on the results tomorrow.

Made a few sideboard changes to try to accommodate the fish/shops matchups a bit better (homogenizing removal into Dismember, etc). Also made the following maindeck changes:

-1 Mox Opal
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Mystical Tutor

In favor of:

+1 Island
+2 Flusterstorm

With the intended goal being to add a more stable mana source in place of the Opal and to slightly improve the blue mirror. We're already favorable vs landstill, but I did find myself wanting just a hair more counterspell protection vs stuff like Grixis, Angels, Bomber, etc. I don't think that I would go over 9 counterspells maindeck. Mystical is the weakest tutor, and I generally found myself having enough tutors/draw to keep a steady flow of gas. I don't really have any way to find the Top, (no Trinket Mages), and while it's good in the long, grindy games, I think that it's a correct cut because most opposing decks will have done something busted by the time Top would really start pulling its weight. This has the side-effect of making Academy a bit worse, but I think that it's still good enough to run. Pretty sure that if I cut the artifact count any lower, though, I wouldn't bother -- as is, though, it'll help out with Desire mana, and it's busted postboard with Thopters online.

[Tempus]

Some questions:

Why so many win conditions?
Do you ever resolve Desire with a useful storm count prior Y.Win? Wouldn't Tendrils do the job by it's own in those situations?
Don't you feel that Tolarian and LoA come into conflict with Gush?
If you intend to have more stable mana, why not add Preordain in place of the expensive spells (Desire, Gifts, Tezzeret, [TfK])?

Personally I'd go for less broken and more reliable as in

-1 Mana Crypt
-1 Tezz
-1 Gifts
-1 Desire
-1 Tolarian
+4 Preordain
+1 Mystical Tutor

If you face a lot of Empty the Warrens then keep the Truth otherwise
-1 Echoing Truth

+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (more business)
or
+1 Flusterstorm (still works against Empty)

The last thing could be

-1 Island
+1 Scalding Tarn

this makes the Preordain worse, but the two Jace and Preordain better. It also should shore up your MUD match up as fetchlands are usually better than regular ones. This change is only useful iff there aren't many Ghost Quarters in your opponents decks...

That's less good stuff and certainly less focused on the Tendrils kill, but with the Preordain and the Mystical Tutor Gush chains should be actually more probable, the missing two mana sources (well Crypt isn't that useful outside of MUD) shouldn't matter too much as you have more digging power.
This also means you should be able to find your Hurkyl's Recall or Trygon Predators faster...

[Arianrhod]

Some questions:

Why so many win conditions?
Do you ever resolve Desire with a useful storm count prior Y.Win? Wouldn't Tendrils do the job by it's own in those situations?
Don't you feel that Tolarian and LoA come into conflict with Gush?
If you intend to have more stable mana, why not add Preordain in place of the expensive spells (Desire, Gifts, Tezzeret, [TfK])?

Personally I'd go for less broken and more reliable as in

-1 Mana Crypt
-1 Tezz
-1 Gifts
-1 Desire
-1 Tolarian
+4 Preordain
+1 Mystical Tutor

If you face a lot of Empty the Warrens then keep the Truth otherwise
-1 Echoing Truth

+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (more business)
or
+1 Flusterstorm (still works against Empty)

The last thing could be

-1 Island
+1 Scalding Tarn

this makes the Preordain worse, but the two Jace and Preordain better. It also should shore up your MUD match up as fetchlands are usually better than regular ones. This change is only useful iff there aren't many Ghost Quarters in your opponents decks...

That's less good stuff and certainly less focused on the Tendrils kill, but with the Preordain and the Mystical Tutor Gush chains should be actually more probable, the missing two mana sources (well Crypt isn't that useful outside of MUD) shouldn't matter too much as you have more digging power.
This also means you should be able to find your Hurkyl's Recall or Trygon Predators faster...

My belief regarding vintage is that the old adage of "There are no wrong questions, only wrong answers" is exacerbated in Vintage. I've played heavy control builds in Vintage in the past, and have had a lot of instances of having the wrong answer for the threat my opponent is playing. As such, I believe that playing the lumbering, slow, pseudo-hardcontrol list is a poor decision. We aren't Landstill, which actually capable of playing hard control. We aren't Grixis, which is capable of stalling via 1-for-1s until something broken happens. We aren't Bomberman with its Trinket Mage value plan.

At the end of the day, I would much rather be proactive with the deck. Some of my approach, I will admit, is metagame-based. I'm in the Northeast, which means there's a lot of blue decks and Shops, with some Landstill presence and only the occasional true combo deck. I'm also close to Bloomsburg, which is where the inventor of Mayor Fish lives, which means there's probably more of that deck around than anywhere else in the world. As such, my approach is specifically tuned with the idea of punching through blue mirrors in mind: and it works. I consider Landstill to be a good matchup. I'm still tuning and tweaking for the other blue decks, but I've had success overall so far. Last night, I beat Shops 3 times. If I'm beating Shops, Landstill, and blue decks, and still have a respectable matchup against Fish, then I'm perfectly content and exactly where I want to be positioned. It's just a matter of tuning and tweaking to keep up those percentages (and probably shore up blue/shops just a -hair- more because those are the two things I REALLY want to beat).

---------

Some specific comments regarding the cards you question:

Mana Crypt is Tinker-fodder. It also helps pay for Spheres out of Shops, and fuels some of the broken starts. It's not the most amazing card in the deck, but I don't think that playing Tinker without Crypt is correct. I'll note that I don't really -like- Tinker as a plan, and half the time I don't even want to run it...but it IS one of the easiest/more free wins in the format, and for every game where you draw Blightsteel and are angry,there's another where you open T1 Tinker and proceed to the win game step.

Tezz is a nod to the Drains. Too often, you'll successfully resolve Drain, have a pile of colorless, and then end up passing the turn without anything to do. If I cut Tezz for anything, it would probably be for a Fact or Fiction. However, Tezz's ability to tutor up the Time Vault or even just act as a backup Voltaic Key (if Key gets Revoked, for example), is vastly more useful than a FoF, IMO. Even if all he does is put Time Vault into play and then dies before he can win the game, that's still massive. Or, if he attempts to win and the Vault gets Abrupt Decayed, say, then that still leaves me a double-key in play that will eventually win the game on his own (or the ability to tutor Lotus/all the Moxen for -0).

Gifts is a snap-include in any deck playing Yawg Will, Time Vault/Key, and Regrowth. We're playing all of those cards -anyway-, because Gush deck. Being able to Gifts for Key/Vault/Will/Regrowth results in an immediate win pending mana (/untap step). Alternatively, you can Gifts for something like Gush/Recall, Fastbond, Yawg Will, and Regrowth, and proceed to storm off pending the rest of your hand. There's a million Gifts piles and they're all good. Gifts also plays favorably with Drain -- who wouldn't want to Demonic twice for U?

Desire is something that I consistently get questioned about, and it's actually worked out pretty well for me. Obviously it immediately gets boarded out vs Shops, for example, but otherwise it either wins the game on the spot or acts as a draw-7 and puts me so far ahead that I may as well have won on the spot. I would say that of Desires, I've probably ended in a lethal Desire ~65-75% of the time. That's enough for me to justify the slot. I also have a German foil. Your argument is invalid :P

If I cut Tolarian for anything, it would be for another land, not a Preordain. I was at 14 lands and found myself consistently getting mono-land hands -- 15 has been running much smoother for me. While Tolarian doesn't interact with Gush, it makes enough mana that it's okay. I've never had a time when I've looked at Tolarian and said, "man, I'm really angry that this is in play right now." Well, other than when I am flooded in the first place, but you know what I mean.

Echoing Truth is a solid catch-all. I do have a bit of Empty the Warrens around me, and having that as a hedge against those decks is pretty good. It's also a way to deal with Tinkered Blightsteels, Gaddock Teegs, Dredge zombies, Oath tokens, and a host of other annoyances.

---------

As noted, I played vs Shops three times last night. I was victorious all three matches, only dropping a single game in the finals, when I mulled to 5 game 1.

My board for all 3 was as follows:

-1 Desire
-1 Gifts
-2 Jace
-1 Blightsteel
-2 Flusterstorm

+2 Dismember
+2 Nature's Claim
+1 Trygon
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Forest

After the event, I decided that I was probably misboarding very slightly, and I probably should have sideboarded:

-1 Yawg Will
-1 Tendrils
-1 Thirst for Knowledge

+2 Thopter Foundry
+1 Sword of the Meek

In addition to the above.

Out of fear of Tinker/Will, my finals opponent (the most experienced/skilled of my opponents) was boarding in Grafdigger's Cages. I was already boarding out Blightsteel anyway, because with Phyrexian Metamorphs and Duplicants, I don't really feel like opening myself up to that. But Yawg Will is going to be dead 9/10 unless I EoT Hurks anyway, and Tendrils is even worse -- I was only leaving it in with that thought in mind / because I didn't think I had enough I wanted to board out to bring in the Thopter package. Cutting Thirst is a little painful, but it's so expensive, and I usually don't want to discard a Mox anyway in the Shops matchup because mana source (unless there's a Chalice@0, obviously). Thopter/Sword is also dead to Grafdigger's Cage, though, so I dunno if this thought is actually correct or not. It's intrinsically more powerful than Will vs Shops, though, and I guess worst-case I'm adding 1 blue card net for FoW. If it does get online and they don't have a Cage out, I'm pretty sure that I win on the spot. So...maybe?

[alphastryk]

Just FYI, Thopter-Sword doesn't care about Grafdigger's Cage. :)

[Arianrhod]

Just FYI, Thopter-Sword doesn't care about Grafdigger's Cage. :)

I'm an idiot. Ignore me.

[nevilshute]

I haven't played a huge amount of vintage lately but absolutely love to build around GushBond :)

I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with Deathrite Shaman? Not sure if it's silly to consider it in this type of deck, but it's all around utility seems like it might be worth a shot? And would be good in the mirror to clean up the opponent's yard.

[rooneg]

I haven't played a huge amount of vintage lately but absolutely love to build around GushBond :)

I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with Deathrite Shaman? Not sure if it's silly to consider it in this type of deck, but it's all around utility seems like it might be worth a shot? And would be good in the mirror to clean up the opponent's yard.

The GushBond deck I played at the NYSE Open had 3 DRS in it (instead of Lotus Cobra). I got crushed in the actual event, but DRS did well in testing. It's another win condition in grindy drawn out games and helps a lot against shops if you can land it on turn 1. The down side is that (in pre-board games at least) you need to fetch a non-basic to cast it. This is slightly less of a problem in games 2-3, when you can side in a basic forest, but you're still looking at fetching non-basics a fair amount to make it work (since at most 4 of your fetches can get a basic forest). It's also less good when you've got the GushBond engine going than Cobra would be, but once you've got the engine going hopefully you don't need the help.

[mini1337s]

Has anyone had any success with Young Pyromancer? I've been testing Marius Morger's list from May (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10960&iddeck=80064) but subbed Young Pyromancer in where Nivmagus Elemental was. I've been happy with the results, though that testing has mostly been done on Cockatrice.

[thecrav]

Young Pyro is the tits, but are you wanting to play it in a control build?

[mini1337s]

Young Pyro is the tits, but are you wanting to play it in a control build?
Well, the list itself is fairly control heavy. It seems like a more resilient card than Nivmagus Elemental, though Elemental can get crazy with Storm.

[Kirika]

I am not sure I like Young Pyromancer. Its not very good versus workshops or Oath. Pyromancer is pretty good if your chaining spells that draw cards while making tokens but sometimes in control match ups you don't want to spend a resources and tap down to cast spells to make elemental tokens that just get taken out by Engineered Explosives or are not relevant as they go off with Key Vault.

[phazonmutant]

Hey all. Played Drain Gush Control at a big vintage tournament today. I ended up going 2-2, but I thank that was the result of some bad breaks and mistakes more than the result of positioning or construction. My meta is admittedly heavily blue-slanted, but in that meta I felt like the deck was extremely well positioned.

4 Young Pyromancer
2 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Mountain
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim

R1 - Shops - 2-0
I had hate, he didn't have a lot of prison, and Pyromancer is really good against this deck.

R2 - Grixis - 2-1
Pyromancer very easily took over the game 1, I got horribly flooded game 2, and a Bolted Pyromancer left some tokens that put him in Bolt range game 3.

R3 - Human Storm - 0-2
I got demolished by multiple Notion Thief into Timetwister g1. Then g2 he had an absurd Mox->Land->Recall->Lotus->Will it all back. I actually was not that far off from killing him, but he drew Tendrils of Agony and Chain of Vapored 4 permanents back to his hand for lethal storm.

R4 - The Deck - 1-2
Pyromancers took over game 1, then game 2 was extremely close. I pitched the wrong card (Jace instead of Misdirection) protecting a Recall, then his Toxic Deluge crushed me. Still had outs, then Gushed instead of leaving up hard-cast Misdirection, and he peeled Recall. Game 3 I led on Library, he led on Time Walk into Tinker.

I've been testing a ton of games with this deck and it's been performing against both big blue decks and fish decks. Everyone in the format has problems with Young Pyromancer - it blocks Bobs and Silvergill Adepts and presents a clock. Deathrite is a problem, Deluge is a problem.

I think the Misdirection should be something else, but not sure what. Maybe Bolt. I boarded that in every match.