[Deck] 3c Angel Stompy - T8 at Big Arse II

[legacyplayer]

Angel Stompy Variant from Big Arse II

Creatures
4 Meddling Mage
3 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
3 Spectral Lynx
4 Silver Knight
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

Utility and Control
2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Duress
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chrome Mox
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands
4 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
4 Scrubland

SB
2 In the Eye of Chaos
4 Pithing Needle
2 Acid Rain
3 Engineered Plague
4 Armageddon

Card Choices

Creatures

Exalted Angel: 1) Swing 2) Flip 3) Laugh

Meddling Mage: This card is here mainly because of the time it buys against survival decks, and its must-counter status against landstill. It also has a lot of synergy with duress and pithing needle, and it makes an excellent chrome mox imprint. It is also an additional beater, though its shortcomings against aggro make it very annoying sometimes.

Silver Knight: Silver Knight is everything I want in a creature against any non-landstill deck. The evasion and first strike ability make it close to invincible when holding a sword and its ability to acquire Jitte counters before the opposing creature does is great. The knight is the core of your defense, and your most potent weapon against goblins.

Spectral Lynx: Spectral Lynx with equipment is like River Boa with Rancor, but white. Lynx is the second most important reason that this deck runs black. This card is incredible against Survival of the Fittest decks and Grow decks, both of which are very popular.

Soltari Priest: I could say that this card’s evasion and pro-red ability are great, especially with a piece of equipment, but I won’t. This deck already beats red without it. The Priest’s shadow ability is often a hindrance, and the inclusion of this card over a faster creature like Savannah Lions and maybe a second Isamaru was most likely a mistake. I often find myself ripping up landstill’s hand with duress, and maging out key spells in the early game, but usually end up dieing to landstill’s card advantage anyway. Cutting some of the weaker 2 drops could give me the extra speed boost I need to capitalize on landstill’s early game vulnerabilities.

Isamaru: It’s a 2/2 for one mana. Why not?

Non-Creatures

Duress: Duress is one of the cards that takes this deck above the potential of Mono-white Angel Stompy. Duress gives this deck a great weapon against survival, lanstill, and combo decks all at the same time. It also sets up a turn two meddling mage very well.

Swords to Plowshares: The deck needs removal, and STP is the best there is.

Seal of Cleansing: Seal is not one of my favorite cards in the deck, but it is very flexible, and has a use against most decks in the format. It really shines in the lanstill match up, where it can make take out opposing standstills without giving your opponent cards. Again, the Seal’s real strength is it’s usefulness against almost every archetype.

Umewaza’s Jitte: Best equipment ever printed. Jitte’s power and flexibility are unparalled by any other creature enhancing card ever to exist. I run it as a 2 of, because it is unfortunately a legend, and there are no other Jittes in my local metagame and not many people run very much in the way of artifact kill.

Sword of Fire and Ice: Sword of Fire and ice is not a very flashy card at first glance. It usually doesn’t hit the opponent unless I have an Angel or Priest, but that is not where its strength lies. SoFI gives the deck inevitability against most aggressive decks, which is a great advantage, because of the defensive strength of Silver Knight and Spectral Lynx. It fills the important roll of draw engine, and does it well.

Tithe: Tithe contributes greatly to this deck’s consistency. It has synergy with chrome mox, and is an essential part of this deck’s mana base.

Mana

Chrome Mox: Angel Stompy has always found use in Chrome Mox to power out its many two drops on turn one, get card advantage out of tithe, and power out turn one Angels. It becomes even more useful with Meddling Mage, which gains a lot when it is played on turn one. The Mox provides a lot of tempo advantage, and is well worth the card. The reason I only run two is because drawing two of them in the opening hand is almost always reason enough to mulligan, and with three colors, this deck can’t afford to trade more consistency for speed.

Ancient Tomb: Ancient Tomb has been proven to be a great card in Mono-white Angel Stompy, and its role is very obvious, so I’ll just say that it’s good and move on.

Wasteland: This is the reason that this deck runs 24 mana sources. Wasteland can be really good, or completely suck, depending on the situation. On average, it has been pretty decent, but after running them for a long time, I decided that they should probably be cut for some 1 mana creatures.

Sideboard

In The Eye of Chaos: Though I have not actually tested it, it looks like the best answer to solidarity available. There are only two solidarity cards in the sideboard, because with Duress and Meddling Mage in the main deck, I should be able to get away with running a minimal amount of hate for it. The card makes going off impossible without a ton of lands on the table, and solidarity can’t Cunning Wish for an answer unless it gets 6 mana, which is not likely to happen before he dies, or the wish gets Duressed or Maged. When Quicksilver suggested it to me the week before Big Arse II, I was immediately convinced that it was the silver bullet I needed to beat solidarity.

Pithing Needle: Survival of the Fittest, Pernicious Deed, Psychatog, fetch lands, Goblin Charbelcher, Disk, Cursed Scroll…the list goes on and on.

Acid Rain: Against any RGSA and ATS, this is a one-sided Armageddon. It has won me way too many games to not be here.

Engineered Plague: After seeing Cavern Ninja’s sideboard, I have decided to switch this to Tivadar’s Crusade for obvious reasons.

Armageddon: I have tried many sideboard cards against landstill, and this has been the best so far. There are four in here, because landstill will try it’s best to counter every one, so I planned ahead.

Matchups

RGSA: Favored. I have had a very good track record against this deck, but I haven’t played against it a lot, so the results could be slanted in my favor, because of good draws.

Landstill: Unfavored. The two losses that I took at Big Arse II were both against landstill decks, once 1-2, and once 0-2. My deck lacks the early pressure needed to get their life total low enough before FoF destroys me. I really think this deck could use another draw engine. They just had to ban skull clamp, didn’t they.

Goblins: Highly Favored. Silver Knight stops the little red men dead in their tracks. From there, Exalted Angel and SoFI take over, and win the game in short order.

Solidarity: Probably Favored. I have actually never tested against it, but I have had a good amount of success against Spring Tide, and Solidarity should be easier, because I can bring in In the Eye of Chaos.

[Zilla]

I'm tired now, so I'll only ask these questions for the moment... have you been missing Mother of Runes? Particularly with Meddling Mage in the maindeck, it seems like a secondary way (aside from Duress) to protect them from removal could be key.

Also, I strongly suggest you test the Solidarity matchup more thoroughly. I've done testing with Mage builds, and still found the matchup to be difficult even after dedicating 4 or more SB slots to the matchup. I wasn't running Duress, but I have strong doubt that that alone is enough to turn the matchup heavily in your favor, and I say this from experience with other decks running Duress as an anti-Solidarity tool. Brainstorm alone is often enough to protect them from Duress, and backed by heavy card draw, it really puts a very minor dent in their plans, as far as I've seen. While the Mage is indeed very strong against them, without Mother of Runes to protect him, it's very easily removed by bounce from Solidarity's board. Even with Mom protecting him they can bounce him with Evacuation, though that's often slow enough not to matter. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this matchup particularly in more detail.

Finally, I'd be interested in hearing what matchups you faced at BA2, which ones you won, which you lost, and why, if you remember them.

[Zilla]

Moved to Developmental. I'm aware that the deck T8'ed at BA2, but C.Ninja's Gro deck won the thing and it's in Developmental as well. By your own admission, this build needs further refinement, so off to Developmental it goes. It can be moved to Open once it is fully optimized.

[t3h.sWaRm]

Would you ever consider taking out a SoFaI for an additional Jitte? I like seeing Jitte more than SoFaI. Although you may see 2 in a game somewhat often, it may come in handy if they get rid of one.

[legacyplayer]

Moved to Developmental. I'm aware that the deck T8'ed at BA2, but C.Ninja's Gro deck won the thing and it's in Developmental as well. By your own admission, this build needs further refinement, so off to Developmental it goes. It can be moved to Open once it is fully optimized.
this build needs further refinement

Quite true.

I only know one guy who owns a solidarity deck, but I'll try to get some testing in as soon as possible. As for Mom, I've considered her, but I think that she's too slow, and the only thing to cut for her is Soltari Priest, but that would slow the deck down. If you have any suggestions on what to cut, I will gladly try them, and post the results as soon as possible.

Big Arse II

Round 1-Vial Goblins
Game 1-During shuffling he revealed a couple goblins, so I mulligan my hand in hopes of Silver Knight and draw 2 of them. They hold off the swarm, until I can end the game with SoFI.
Game 2-I hold off his attackers with an early Silver Knight, and drop 2 Engineered Plagues.

Round 2-Hulk?
Game 1-He swings for 20, but I'm at 28.
Game 2-He is unable to recover in time from mana screw.

Round 3-Landstill(with Mana Leak and Force Spike)Force Spike=tech
Game 1-I draw 4 STP, and run out of gas
Game 2-I get off to a quick start, and he can't get enough mana to recover
Game 3-Not sure what happened, but I ended up losing. I think Humility was involved.

Round 4-RGSA
Game 1-I get a turn 1 Angel and he scoops a few turns later.
Game 2-He drops a lot of creatures including 1 or 2 baloths and a Deranged Hermit. I Acid Rain, and needle out Survival, but it never ends up mattering. I lose.
Game 3-I get off to a reasonably good start with Spectral Lynx and Angel, and he never does anything about it.

Round 5-Gro with red
Game 1-He gets mana screwed after mulliganing profusely, and he can't race my evasion stuff.
Game 2-I die to huge Werebears and FTK.
Game 3-Not sure what happened, but I ended up winning.

Round 6-Sligh
Game 1-I get my creatures burnt, and I die to numerous Lavamancer activations, and an active Cursed Scroll.
Game 2-He wastelands a lot of my stuff, but I kill him with pro-red stuff anyway
Game 3-This is long and drawn out. A total of 4 Needles hit the board, 2 on each side. I Seal his Needle for SoFI, and win in the end.

Round 7-Intentional Draw

Round 1 of top 8-Landstill
Game 1-He mulligans down to 6. I duress, and take out his cheap spell, leaving Wrath and Disk, after seeing that he has only one land. He mises 3 lands off the top and kills me.
Game 2-I get off to a very good start with 2 Duress, but I die to multiple FoFs and Faerie beats.

Because this is a tournament report, I must continue the tradition and end it with props and slops.

Props
Rochester for getting 2 in top 8
Lucking out and getting a ride to Syracuse
Getting a turn 1 Angel
2 of my friends getting the Tundra and Virginia door prizes

Slops
Playing against 2 fellow Rochesterians
Having to endure McDonalds on the drive home(shudder)
Isochronic Scepter for getting within one game of the top 8 and then losing
Dave Price for losing may more rounds than he deserved to

What are your thoughts on Serendib Efreet? I'm also thinking of running Kami of Ancient Law over Seal of Cleansing. I like the 3 Jitte idea. I'll try it out.

[NoGameShow]

I was just curious why you went so drastic as to add two color splashes. I mean is all the added sideboard stuff really necessary, regular Angel Stompy has consistent wins against the decks that you list as highly favorable in your breakdown. To cut through all the crap...Why play this deck over regular Angel Stompy.

[midnightAce]

To be able to disrupt your opponent while beating with super efficient creature is every aggro-control deck's dream. I personally find this deck interesting, and will take some time to deconstruct/reconstruct it. Seeing how this deck did place T8 in BAII, it must be doing something right. So let's take a look:

The two loss the deck had are both against Landstill, more importantly, Landstill's power 4cc spells, Wrath/Disk/Humility, and powerful draws such as FoF. Essential, this is the same problem as MonoAS. When a deck packs up to 6-8 board wiping effects, the aggro portion of aggro-control WILL SUCK.

I have some additional questions before I make further comments:

After Landstill did their ugly board wipe thing, the threats that you top deck later on, are they
a) Too small and simply traded with Factories?
b) Top decked Duresses and etc while really needing creatures?
c) All countered/StPed before it overcame summoning sickness?

If we can isolate specific problems, we might be able to tailor the deck to fight better against Landstill while still retain its primary advantage against other aggro decks. (I really don't want to worry about combo right now, my head hurts... lol.. )

[umbowta]

To cut through all the crap...Why play this deck over regular Angel Stompy.
Because dual lands are cool duh! :p More seriously, though, I'd give it a try just because its different. Some players have a hard time sideboarding against untested matchups. Oh yeah, and, dual lands are cool.

[Zilla]

To cut through all the crap...Why play this deck over regular Angel Stompy.
Actually, I was going to ask this too. In the tournament report above, I noticed that you never mentioned Duress or Meddling Mage playing key roles in your wins at all. In fact, Mage wasn't mentioned at all. Every time you mentioned you had a strong Duress, you said you lost that game anyway.

You mentioned that Spectral Lynx was strong in the Survival matchup, but the Survival matchup (RGSA in patrticular) was already a good one for mono-white Angel Stompy. This is true even moreso with the inclusion of Pithing Needle in the board. Further, I disagree with your contention that Duress is strong in the Survival matchup. In most cases, it's only good if it's played first turn, and then only if they have a Survival in their hand. It's also very bad against Vial Goblins. I'm not convinced the black splash is worth it just for Duress and Spectral Lynx.

In essence, Angel Stompy's greatest problems are High Tide Combo and Landstill. According to your tourney report, you didn't face any High Tide combo, and you lost both your Landstill matchups. It seems to me that while your alterations didn't appear to overtly harm the deck's good matchups, it didn't do much at all to improve its bad ones. I'll agree that Mage is very strong in the High Tide matchup, and might be worth consideration in some metagames for that reason, but the black splash doesn't appear to be helping you much at all.

With regards to midnightAce's analysis, I'm inclined to agree. One thing I'll point out is that Parallax Wave is actually a very strong tool against Landstill's mass removal, and was one of the key elements in the mono-white version's ability to beat it with any consistency. It is additionally very strong against creature based aggro of all kinds as well as Survival. Something to consider.

In any case, I'm not trying to deride your alterations to the deck; you did well at BA2 with it, and that of course speaks volumes. I do, however, require more convincing that your alterations have significantly improved the deck's bad matchups without noticably harming its good ones.

[legacyplayer]

@NoGameShow: The reason I play this over normal Angel Stompy is because I can play disruption. Without it I would auto-lose to any descent combo deck, Survival would hit a lot more often, I would lose to Burning Wish, I would be much more vulnerable to mass destruction, and I couldn't compete with landstill's draw at all.

@MidnightAce: A and c. Duress usually isn't a problem, because it almost always hits something that would be used to deal with a creature.

@unbowta: Damn right!

@Zilla:Meddling Mage and Duress were both amazing against control and RG survival. I'd rather not resign myself to losing to control and keep these in. As for the black splash against survival, Duress is the only thing stopping Burning Wish, and also helps keep Survival off the table. I would very much like to cut black and either leave the deck W/u or add red in for Lightning Angel, Lightning Bolt, and Fire/Ice. That might help my matchups against random aggro which I sometimes lose to, and landstill, becuase Ice can buy me a Counterspell/Mana Leak free turn, and Bolt+F/I can help me force through those last few points of damage which are so hard to get. I will try out Paralax Wave when I get time, and I'll let you know if it helps.

[psymunn]

To cut through all the crap...Why play this deck over regular Angel Stompy.
Because dual lands are cool duh! :p More seriously, though, I'd give it a try just because its different. Some players have a hard time sideboarding against untested matchups. Oh yeah, and, dual lands are cool.
Super Cool! But Dual-Lands are a liability and not running them when you can avoid it is never a bad thing. Wasteland is not a card you're expecting NOT to see, I take it, and, with Cruicable out there... well... not running them is like not running creatures: Not always a good idea, but if you can do it, do.

[Zilla]

@Zilla:Meddling Mage and Duress were both amazing against control and RG survival. I'd rather not resign myself to losing to control and keep these in.
The things that confuse me are as follows:

1. RGSA is already a good matchup for the mono-white build. What exactly is it that your opponents are fetching with Wish that are so detrimental to your gameplan? (This isn't a rhetorical question; I just haven't had that much trouble with it myself.) As for hitting Survival with Duress, I'd by far rather use Pithing Needle as Survival hate, since it can also hit Sharpshooter, fetches, Trolls, Baloths, etc. etc. Duressing a Survival keeps it off the table for only as long as it takes them to cast E. Witness. Needle keeps it inactive until they topdeck a Zealot or waste a Wish on removing it, which is fine by me.

2. Whether or not you want to resign yourself to losing to control, your matchup results from BA2 show that you're losing to it anyway. If Mage and Duress are so strong in this matchup, then you should have won them, no? Again, I'm not entirely convinced that a weaker manabase and a lower threat count is worth these changes unless they significantly improve your bad matchups. They don't appear to, with the possible exception of Solidarity, which you don't have quantifiable testing data to say one way or the other.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying that a splash is necessarily a bad idea, but it seems clear that more data is necessary to prove it definitively.

[umbowta]

Meddling Mage and Duress were both amazing against control and RG survival. I'd rather not resign myself to losing to control and keep these inQuoted for truth.


If Mage and Duress are so strong in this matchup, then you should have won them, no? Good point Zilla, but kind of fallacious. Duress (and Cabal Therapy) is a major part of "The Game's" abilty to have any game against control at all. In WUB stompy, it is obviously providing much needed tempo against control, without sacrificeing effectiveness against the previously discussed "good matchups" of Angel Stompy.

Similarly, Meddling Mage and Duress are both cards which provide much needed tempo against Solidarity and Spring Tide. These two cards, in this deck, are the only thing keeping these High Tide combo decks from goldfishing him. All this has been achieved without detriment to the previously good matchups attained by the mono white version.

As far as the manabase is concerned, it was already hateable before the addition of a few Dual lands and fetches. As if wasteland was ever dead against a deck using 4x Ancient Tomb for accell. Hell, I'm going to go so far as to say that I wouldn't mind an early wasteland targeting a Dual instead of one of my Ancient Tombs. Duals are fetchable by 8 other cards in the deck list. Ancient Tomb isn't. And the tomb is an integral part in accelerating the deck to a quick W. Keeping wasteland off of my Ancient Tomb is justification enough for me to consider the two color splash.

[EDIT] Including moxen, legacyplayer's decklist has 19 ways to get first turn white mana. Compare this to the current mono white version and we see 15 ways to achieve first turn white mana. Put that in TIBA's pipe and smoke it.

[Zilla]

If Mage and Duress are so strong in this matchup, then you should have won them, no? Good point Zilla, but kind of fallacious. Duress (and Cabal Therapy) is a major part of "The Game's" abilty to have any game against control at all. In WUB stompy, it is obviously providing much needed tempo against control, without sacrificeing effectiveness against the previously discussed "good matchups" of Angel Stompy.
I'm aware of what the cards are for in theory, but in practice, it's not winning games. That's not fallacy, that's proven fact. Furthermore, the comparison to The Game isn't overly apt, because it is essentially a combo deck, and Duress and Therapy are there to protect its combo, where AStompy is aggro control, which is able to use redundancy as a strategy over disruption. The bottom line is that while these cards are clearly there to provide tempo against control, they're still not winning games against it. It seems to me this is an issue which bears addressing rather than glossing over.


Similarly, Meddling Mage and Duress are both cards which provide much needed tempo against Solidarity and Spring Tide. These two cards, in this deck, are the only thing keeping these High Tide combo decks from goldfishing him. All this has been achieved without detriment to the previously good matchups attained by the mono white version.
Again, I understand what these cards are here for in theory, but legacyplayer himself admits he has no solid testing data to reinforce this theory. Until he does, it doesn't bear discussing. I've tested builds with Meddling Mage and 7 dedicated SB slots to beating Solidarity, and it still wasn't a positive matchup. I am skeptical that the addition of Duress into that equation is enough to turn the matchup into a definitively positive one.


[EDIT] Including moxen, legacyplayer's decklist has 19 ways to get first turn white mana. Compare this to the current mono white version and we see 15 ways to achieve first turn white mana. Put that in TIBA's pipe and smoke it.
Why is this relevant? You don't need more than 15 ways to get white mana first turn. Statistically speaking, if a quarter of your deck is white mana sources, you're extremely likely to have 1 in your opening draw. If it were actually important to have more than 15 first turn white sources, it would be a very simple matter to drop Tithes for Plains, but there's no reason to do it. I guess the mono-white build could drop actual threats for mana sources like the 3c build has done, but that clearly isn't going to improve any of its matchups, so it seems like a moot point, no?

[umbowta]

That's not fallacy, that's proven fact. It's actually quite clearly, imo, a non sequitur. And besides that, three games, or even six games played in a tournament, by these decks is not fact. It is, however, a hasty generalization (which I too am often guilty of).
Anyway, legacyplayer managed to top 8 with this 3c twist on your Angel Stompy, and deserves a little credit. His refusal to lie down and play dead to the decks bad matchups is commendable. While it is true that he didn't win the matches in question, there is good theory, as you have said, in the card choices. Maybe these are not the cards that are going to win games, but at least he is trying.

The comment I made in regard to the availability of first turn white was precipitated by comments made in the Angel Stompy thread about the occasional lack of white sources. I merely found it interesting that a three color deck has more ways to obtain white on first turn than does a mono white deck.


It seems to me this is an issue which bears addressing rather than glossing over.
Agreed.

[legacyplayer]

Okay, so we all agree that the deck needs more stuff for control. Instead of talking about how the current plan of action isn't good enough, why don't we stop complaining and do something about it. Do we need a higher threat count? Maybe. Would the addition of more evasive creatures to get around factory fix the problem? Maybe. Why should we keep bitching about how Meddling Mage and Duress don't work well enough, and try to find something that will?

[Zilla]

Anyway, legacyplayer managed to top 8 with this 3c twist on your Angel Stompy, and deserves a little credit. His refusal to lie down and play dead to the decks bad matchups is commendable.
I never suggested otherwise. When I ask why you would play the 3c version over the white version, it is not a rhetorical question, nor an implication that no reason exists to do so. I ask the question because legacyplayer has tested the 3c build, and I have not. Understand that my questions here have not been sarcastic implications with regards to the deck's validity or lack thereof. They are genuine requests for input, and I apologize if they were interpereted as anything other than that.

In short: I'm not saying Duress or Mage are bad ideas. I'm saying I need more convincing that they are good ones. I think we all agree at this point that the control matchup can still use work. Mage and Duress are perhaps steps in the right direction, but clearly more work is needed.

Legacyplayer, have you thoroughly tested the Landstill matchup? Like, ten or more matches? I'd really be interested in getting some further data upon which to focus this discussion. Like midnight suggested earlier, we need to determine specifically why Landstill is winning games, and then focus on changes which could improve these weaknesses.

[midnightAce]

Zilla already addressed most of it, however, there are a few things I want to bring up before getting onto topic.

a) The disruption played here should not be compareded to the disruption played by The Game. The disruption played by The Game serves an alternate function of allowing Keeper to combo off, and is highly concentrated on taking out StP. (Only actual threat to the deck with DSC.) Where as disruption in 3cAS has to fight off multiple board wipes as well as many other things. This restrictive nature and dual function of the spell sets the two appart. (I just woke up after 7 hours of Di's Turboland last night, if I'm not making sense, just ignore it then.)

b) While the Duresses and Mages are the only thing preventing Solidarity and the alike to goldfish 3cAS in game one, the fact remains that 3cAS DID NOT play against any combo decks in BAII. Not a single one, storm based or otherwise. So sad to say, there is no hard data to back up that those slots will help greatly against combo. (Yes, the THEORY side of it says it should, but we all know it's a little different comes the real thing.)

So while the splash's viability is in debate, let's focus on some positive things coming out of this deck.

All of the following observation are purely personal conjunctures, feel free to disagree.

Spectral Lynx

I find this an interesting choice. It has nice cost to power ratio. Inherant evasion against ever growing popular Gro varients, as well as being able to Regenerate if a black splash was provided for the deck. Being able to Regenerate under a Disk, a Deed, or even an Anarchy is very important IMO.

MIA 1cc

All the 1cc creature, from Suntail to Mother of Ruin are missing in action in his deck. (Everything except for the Isamaru, I'll get to that.) I would assume that first turn plays are generally Duress/Tithe. First turn Duress can also set up second turn Mage really well, unfortunately, the mana requirement for that setup is B on turn one, WU on turn 2. A bit harsh even for a deck running as many fetch as yours. However, by the removal of these 1cc's, the overall total number of creature still remained at a healthy 19, (compare to MonoWAS of 20) and with exception of Angels, they are ALL 2 powered. Is this a good focus? To make the deck more aggro by removing utility creatures such as MoR, and weaker top decks later on. (Suntail vs. Any other 2 powered creatures in the deck.)

I'm going to my friend's house via a short drive to get my notes back from last night's tournement, I got first place via Di's Turboland. :D I'll be back in a bit to finish this post.

Okay, so... part 2.

So, pretty much from your answer and tourney report, it would seems like after intial Wrath/Disk to blow up the board, you pretty much gets stepped on for the rest of the game as Landstill controls the tempo. So here is a few questions that is up for discussion:

a) What do you call agianst Landstill if you have managed to resolve an early Mage? Most UW runs Wrath, Disk vs. Vengeance is a 50/50, so do we call Wrath? StP? Or a counter of some sort?

b) Duress always hits, where as Therapy has a chance of missing. But Therapy's ability to nuke muliples really shines against Landstill should it resolve. So has Therapy been tested in place of Duress? Or even in conjunction of?

c) If turn 4/5 is the fundemental turn for Landstill to lay their Disk/Wrath, then is it possible to work the Waves back into mainboard, seeing how with Tombs and Moxens, our 4cc ability is better than that of Landstill? Waves serves two functions as it removes those Fish/Gro/Goblin/Zoo varients, (goodbye, Dryad counters) and it saves our own creatures from massive board mutalation.

d)

run out of gas

This is a common problem for most none-blue heavy aggro decks. legacyplayer, think back to the tournement, do you often get an active SoFI through? If so, if those SoFI were SoLS, and instead of damange and draw a card, you gained life and recured dead Angels and such, do you think you would have pulled it off with more creatures in hand?

Unfortunately, I'm having a blast with Di's Turboland right now, so my testing in AS is limited. However, I am happy to say that more relevent to the Gift version of Mono White AS, Lighting Greaves has been treating me VERY VERY well. It has become the FIRST eqiupment I search with Gift, if it comes down uninterrupted, it speends up the whole deck by a turn or two. The cost of 0 to equip is the best part, after the intial investment of 2 manas... every creature I cast has haste, as i often will NOT cast more than one creature a turn, I would cast a creature, spend other mana to equip it to something else, then Greave it and charge it into the red zone. However, with the 3cAS setup, the Greave is terrible, as there is no way to drawing it without putting in multiples, and multiples of Greaves sucks a lot.

So those points are my general thoughts, feel free to answer any of those questions and give more insight to the Landstill matchup.

[legacyplayer]

I have done a pretty good ammount of testing against landstill, but I haven't kept a very consistant list throughout my testing, because I tend to switch things around a lot. In the testing I have done, when I lose to landstill, it is usually because I am outdrawn so much by Standstill and Fact or Fiction. In a game in a tournament about four weeks ago when I ran more Wastelands, I dropped a turn 3 Crucible on the play, topdecked a Wasteland the turn afterwards, and ended up losing to Decree of Justice tokens becuase my opponent had drawn so many cards off FoF and Standstill, that the manlands and Tundras were unneeded. The draw is also why Meddling Mage and Duress aren't strong enough. Meddling Mage usually names Wrath of God, Humility, or Fact or Fiction, all of which are devestating to me. The other reason that I lose to landstill is becuase even when I can get a lot of disruption through, sometimes I can't put him on a fast enough clock to kill him before he can Wrath the board. Maybe more speed is the answer. Landstill is only vulnerable before it reaches 4 mana, so if I found room for Savanah Lions, maybe I could have a better chance. Decree is also a problem. I have found Soltari Priest to be a LOT better than Silver Knight and Spectral Lynx, becuase my opponent can't just get an active Factory or cycle a fat Decree to stop it. Sometimes Soltari Priest even gets Wrathed by itself, becuase its cost allows it to slip under countermagic, and its 2 power makes it a necessity to stop. My problems with it are that it really sucks against aggro, and sometimes 2 power still isn't enough to put landstill on the clock I want it to be on. Maybe I need larger and more numerous evasive creatures. Serendib Efreet seems great, becuase it can't be killed my any of landstill's creatures, and it is a seven turn clock by itself. It can also block against aggro. It would also help me get SoFI through more often, which I would very much like to do, and can be excelerated into play with a Tomb. Does anyone think that maybe a red splash would be better than black. I could play REB and/or Pyroblast in the sideboard to combat FoF and Standstill, help resolve an Armageddon, and I could add Lightning Angel in, which seems like it could be very good, even if it can't be casted off an Ancient Tomb.

[Zilla]

A few points:

1. Serendib doesn't strike me as all that appealing. Landstill can whack it with mass removal, StP, or chump it all day long with a Conclave recurred by Crucible. As far as fat is concerned, I think Angel is all you really need in the deck. More fat isn't going to beat Landstill.

2. Lions aren't going improve your clock enough to beat Landstill before turn 4. The original iteration of AStompy packed 4 Lions and an Isamaru. It wasn't fast enough to race Landstill's disruption, and Mishra's can chump Lions all day long. Incidentally, this is the reason that the current build runs Suntail over Lions.

3. Being that Landstill is beating you with draw, have you considered testing Chains of Mephistophles in the board? It doesn't affect FoF unfortunately, but it will stop Standstill and Brainstorm. It's also strong against Solidarity, at least to a degree. Something worth considering, perhaps, especially since you aren't running SoFI or Mask, meaning it's not going to impact you at all.

4. Test Parallax Wave if you haven't yet. It's solid against random aggro, and it can dodge Landstill's mass removal. Super tasty.

5. I have doubts about the red splash. Same thing I said about Serendib applies to Lightning Angel, only moreso, since you can't power it out with Tomb. Angel should provide you all the fat you need to win in most cases. My opinion is that you should be concentrating on protecting or recurring your Angels, not adding more fat. More fat will make for a slower start in the early game. If the game goes long, Landstill will have time to outdraw you and remove everything you have to throw at it.

As for REB, it's decent, but not that useful against Landstill. It's not very good against Standstill because it will usually be hitting play turn 2, and in almost every situation you should be tapping out turn 2 to play threats. If you hold back turn 2 in anticipation of a Standstill that may not even be coming, you're playing into the Landstill player's hand by giving them a free turn and getting them a step closer to Wrath. It's okay against FoF, except that by turn 4 there's a fair likelihood they'll have FoW backup for it, and even if they don't, I'm not sure it's worth splashing an entire color just to answer the two FoFs that most Landstill builds are running.

Basically what you're looking for here is proactive answers to Landstill, not reactive ones. Meddling Mage, Duress, and Chains all fit this category. The exception to this rule would be reactive answers that double as proactive answers to other problems (i.e., Parallax Wave).

The one thing red gives you that might be worthwhile is Pyrostatic Pillar, but I'm not convinced it's significantly better than Rule of Law, which is on-color.

[thecomedian]

Hmm, haven't played with/against this deck for a long time.
Needs card advantage badly. Mask of Memory?,
Umm, so the splash options are U/B/R(green doesn't offer any disruption and the best green cards require an intensive splash) I have to say that I always thought that the deck would go red before black. Blue has mage and some combo disruption. Red Has REB/Pyroblast(go 4-5 blasts in your board and Landstill becomes easier to deal with) Lightning bolt(always good) Goblin soldier(probably terrible but it is a shock on a 2/2) Grim lavamancer/Slighstuff(pups/cadets/whatever) Pyroclasm(GOBBO'S GET BURNED) and finally a little card every red player has been packing sideboard or maindeck since it was legal...Pyrostatic Pillar. Look no further for combo hate because this is it. While Chalice of the Void is at times more powerful, that card has the nasty tendency to screw yourself over at times SO, pillar it is. Also, if you are running a heavy splash in 3 colors why are you not running the full set of tithes? I mean, I would consider cutting fetches for them.

[midnightAce]

The problem with REB/Pyro is that I myself always find counters are the least of my concerns when the game approaches turn 4 on my opponent's side. Granted, REB/Pyro can ensure my ability to drop some threats, but at the same time, they are not threat themselves AND the creatrures/equipment I fight so hard to resolve gets blown up anyway. I've tried fitting in Second Sunrise, but UW builds that runs Disk over Vengeance made it pointless.

Bottomline:

The way I figure it, there is two ways of playing against Landstill. Full aggro race, or play a single creature, protect it from spot removal, removing opposing blockers, and ride it all the way. That essentially force them to Wrath/Disk a single creature. Then you repeat the process. I don't know if any of this makes sense to anybody, but it's how I feel. AS, splash or other wise, will never be fast enough to race Landstill compare to some of the purer aggro decks such as Vial Goblin.

[Zilla]

Red Has REB/Pyroblast(go 4-5 blasts in your board and Landstill becomes easier to deal with) Lightning bolt(always good) Goblin soldier(probably terrible but it is a shock on a 2/2) Grim lavamancer/Slighstuff(pups/cadets/whatever) Pyroclasm(GOBBO'S GET BURNED) and finally a little card every red player has been packing sideboard or maindeck since it was legal...Pyrostatic Pillar. Look no further for combo hate because this is it.

As for REB, it's decent, but not that useful against Landstill. It's not very good against Standstill because it will usually be hitting play turn 2, and in almost every situation you should be tapping out turn 2 to play threats. If you hold back turn 2 in anticipation of a Standstill that may not even be coming, you're playing into the Landstill player's hand by giving them a free turn and getting them a step closer to Wrath. It's okay against FoF, except that by turn 4 there's a fair likelihood they'll have FoW backup for it, and even if they don't, I'm not sure it's worth splashing an entire color just to answer the two FoFs that most Landstill builds are running.

Basically what you're looking for here is proactive answers to Landstill, not reactive ones. Meddling Mage, Duress, and Chains all fit this category. The exception to this rule would be reactive answers that double as proactive answers to other problems (i.e., Parallax Wave).

The one thing red gives you that might be worthwhile is Pyrostatic Pillar, but I'm not convinced it's significantly better than Rule of Law, which is on-color.

Reading the thread is savage tech.

[MattH]

With so many creatures - 19 - and so many uses for spare mana (5 equipment, lynx regeneration, angel morphing, and disruption spells) why isn't this deck playing Æther Vial? It would also help the Landstill matchup by making your guys uncounterable and making their Standstills a dicey proposition.

It also helps cast Meddling Mage, for what that's worth, and being able to get your guys into play EOT means you can get a swing in with a Jitte- or Sword-equipped creature despite their Wrath. Lastly, it makes boarding in Armageddon even better. It would seem a natural fit.

[Zilla]

Meh. I tested Vial. It wasn't particularly impressive. The main problem is that, while you have 19 creatures, they're in varying cc's.Obviously the majority is in the 2cc range, but they're not overly impressive with your Angels, and with only ~15 creatures to use Vial with (probably less, since you're going to need to drop threats to make room for Vials), it becomes a game of diminishing returns. In the end, it doesn't strengthen the Landstill matchup much at all, because while it does make their Standstills slightly less effective, the underlying problems against that deck remain an issue (i.e., mass removal and FoF.)

Bottom line is that they're just not strong enough here to justify cutting actual threats or answers for them.

[legacyplayer]

Godzilla is right. Cutting threats from the deck only makes the matchup worse. What the deck needs is a draw engine, but Mask of Memory doesn't seem like it would hit enough, and in most cases, given a choice between Mask of Memory and one of the deck's other pieces of equipment, I would choose the other equipment, because the Mask is just so much weaker. What the deck really needs is some sort of way to keep up with landstill's long term card advantage. I was thinking something along the lines of Phyrexian Arena, but because my mana base could never support it, a replacement must be found. Any ideas?

[MattH]

The main problem is that, while you have 19 creatures, they're in varying cc's.

and with only ~15 creatures to use Vial with (probably less, since you're going to need to drop threats to make room for Vials)

The varying costs never really stopped Goblins from abusing Vial. Also, why would you cut threats for Vial and not cards like Mox and Tomb, which fill a similar role (mana production) but arguably worse?

You may say that those are needed for speed but hasn't it been shown conclusively that it isn't possible to beat Landstill on speed alone? Not even the much faster green beatdown (Stompy) is going to do it, white beatdown sure as hell ain't. Even if that switch does nothing to help against Landstill, I bet Vial is better than Tomb against other matchups, too.

If you keep both Moxen AND Vials, I bet you could move Armageddon maindeck. And don't tell me THAT wouldn't be good to have against Landstill.

Have you really tested Vial? It gets abused in decks with far fewer creatures (http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23160.0), I would be really, really shocked if it wasn't awesome here.

[umbowta]

I am online with zilla's suggestion of Chains of Mephistopheles. I can't validate its worthiness but the mere suggestion of its use brought a reminiscent smile to my face. In theory, Chains is the goods to put the brakes on draw engines. The only drawback I see is the poor synergy with SoFI, but that shouldn't matter if the opponent's life total will soon be zero or less.

As far as splashing red... Imo, Throbbing Pink Weenie, though red is obviously a little more than a splash in TPW, provides some idea of what could be, or has been, done to Angel Stompy when Exalted is on her period. While A- stompy and TPW are quite different looking, they both share a creature core that smashes gobbos, while the red can significantly increase the clock speed against Landstill.

[NoGameShow]

I would like to see Armageddon moved to the main with or without the addition of vial. In alot of builds of the mono white version the geddons have been moved and I personally don't regret it. It's helpful tool in alot of matches. It crucifies landstill, solidarity they pretty much scoop to it, and any survival deck is helpless without large sums of mana...granted it has to resolve in all cases but if they use a counter on it thats one more other spell you will resolve.

[Zilla]

@Matt:

Yes, I have really tested Vial. I've tested it in Goblins, I've tested it in WTF, U/W Fish, WW/u, and Mono-White Angel Stompy extensively. I know how good the card is. The issue is as follows: It's good in goblins despite their varying costs because the entire deck is creatures. It's good in Fish variants because almost all their threats are at 2cc, and its draw engine is specifically designed to abuse it. It's good in WW/u for the same reason. It's not good in Angel Stompy because it a) dillutes your threat base, b) doesn't support a draw engine, c) isn't particularly strong with the widely varying cc's.

These observations are based on real-life testing. Unless vial is supporting a draw engine (Standstill), or a deck with an overwhelming number of creatures (Goblins, WW), it simply isn't that strong. It's the same reason you don't see Suicide running Vial; to make use of it requires you to drop real threats which inherently makes the Vial itself weaker. Fish can get away with this because it facilitates Standstill, which will in turn draw it into more threats to Vial out. Not so with Angel Stompy.

That said, since this build is splashing blue, you could theoretically run Vial along with Standstill in Angel Stompy, which I've actually tested, but it eventually evolved into WW/u, with maindeck Armageddon, as you suggested. It works decently against Landstill, but it's a totally different deck than this one, per se, because I dropped Tombs and Angels entirely to support Factories and Wastelands in the manabase. In any case, you could theoretically make a case for an AngelStompy + VialStill hybrid, which I've done a bit of work with... but just tossing Vial into Angel Stompy on its own merit doesn't work. I have tried that. With maindeck 'geddon, in fact. It still doesn't beat Landstill as consistently as it should.

[84-1122323563]

er hi. i'm new kid.
Anyway.. with the 1cc slot dedicated to spells not creatures, and with 6 more fetchlands than MonoWAS, would Skeletal Scrying be a decent draw card? We've already got game vs aggro and with Angels I'm not worried about life lost to drawing 3 EOT and winning. This deck seems to lose most when it's just outdrawn, and Scrying seems like a flexible draw spell that would also help out after a bad Disk/WoG. The Mask of Memory thing is not gonna work as well in 3cAS, with 7 evasive creatures and no MoR.

[legacyplayer]

Skeletal Scrying seems like a great idea, especially with Angel to offset the life loss. I was considering Night's Whisper, but on turn 2 i'd rather play a creature. My friend suggested Fact or Fiction, but that seemed too expensive. Scrying on the other hand has the flexibility to be played with however much mana I have available, can be used to get a massive ammount of cards if I topdeck it late, and it can't be hit by Red Elemental Blast, which I have been running into a lot lately. I'll test it out as soon as my local landstill player is available.

[84-1122323563]

My initial testing showed it to be quite helpful. I temporarily sided out 2 Seal of Cleansing and 1 Isamaru for 3 Skeletal Scrying. Most Scryings were for 3+, there were a handful that were only 2 deep though and so I'm wondering if adding 1-2 fetchlands would avoid that. I'm going to be moving soon so I didn't really extensively test, but usually drawing 3 cards for 5 life nets you a Jitte or Angel to offset the life.

[MattH]

to make use of [vial] requires you to drop real threats which inherently makes the Vial itself weaker
I still don't see why this is so, nor why you would drop creatures for the Vials and not mana sources.

[midnightAce]

Because Vial Goblin has Vials, Lackeys, and Prospectors to cheat their curve with limited amount of card disadvantage. While AS only has Mox (card disadvantage) and Tomb (life total) to accelerate, both comes at a hefty cost. If we further dilute the mana base, there is no gurantee that we can get 4 mana by turn 4 and flip that Angel. (Vialing out an Angel is just too slow. Without haste, the Angel connects on turn 7... that's just way too slow.)

The mana consistency is also needed for the control spells such as Wave and Armegedon, both are on the higher end of the curve. With Fish/Gro becoming more and more popular, I'm sure we are to see more Daze, Leak. The deck simply cannot afford to cut down on lands and expect Vial to do all its job.

[cupajoe]

Ten years ago, when I was first learning this game, someone told me

"Don't try to do too many things at once."

You've already answered your own dilemma.....

You said it yourself, you need a draw engine.

You need a draw engine, but not to have answers to this or that specific deck....You need a draw engine so that ANGEL STOMPY itself can be more consistent, and keep the pressure on the control decks while still ruling over aggro (I would dedicate sideboard to anti-combo and not worry about combo so much in the main, especially since they have to deal with meddling mage)

I would suggest getting rid of black, and putting more blue in....Obviously, there's a plethora of blue draw spells....Putting in six blue draw spells would help out quite a bit, both with early pressure and to avoid mid-game stallouts

[84-1122323563]

Skeletal Scrying has the benefit of letting the deck do what it already does and then refilling your hand with a negligible life loss. It supplements just about every aspect of the deck by (a) turning your first turn fetchland, Duress/Tithe/StP into threats later on (b) turning a WoG or Disk into a Concentrate © using life as a cost when life is a recuperative source in the deck. Angel Stompy's always had controlling aspects in Parallax Wave, StP and SoFI so Duress is a natural fit; I don't think it's prompting the deck to do too much.

[legacyplayer]

First off, I'd like to say that running a third Jitte in place of my third Sword of Fire and Ice has been great, and that Wasteland should be cut in favor of more spells.

@Cupajoe: How could I cut I cut black when it has one of my most powerful disruption spells, and the best available draw spell by far, and make the deck better? If I had to cut a color it would be blue, because it has fewer cards that the deck really needs, but seeing as the mana base is working fine now, I wouldn't even consider cutting either of them.

[cupajoe]

OK, cut blue then, or keep blue in the manabase, but shift Mage to the sideboard for combo matchups

My point was only that you were correct in that you need a good draw engine....If Skeletal Scrying provides that for you, great....

Others were saying 3 scryings....I would say you need at least four draw spells to be able to consistently dig what you need, preferably six spells

With only three draw spells, you'll still be topdecking a lot and longing for that skeletal that's still 10 cards down

By the way, I do like the deck a lot, very creative....

[Zilla]

My main worry with Scrying is that, in conjunction with damage from Tombs and Fetches, you may often be placing yourself in unrecoverable jeopardy against fast aggro, even taking Jitte and Angels into account. Your Burn matchup, for example, is going to get strikingly worse. It's worth testing, but it might also be a good idea to try dropping black entirely and making room for the Standstill/Vial engine. Just to see if it works. I'm not asserting it'll definitely be better, but both routes are worth testing, in my opinion.

[legacyplayer]

@Godzilla: Adding Skeletal Scryings will actually not hurt the burn matchup very much, becuase I cut Wasteland for them, which is also a very useless card against burn. Life loss in the aggro matchup has never really been an issue for me, even back when I ran it in a control deck with only 2 Absorbs for life gain. Its strength is in its flexibility. It is useful from turn 2 until the end of the game. It will be very difficult, if not impossible to find a better existing draw spell for this deck. If you want to test the deck out with Standstill and Aether Vial, go ahead. I personally don't like it, but if it tests well, I'll be glad to try it out.

@Cupajoe:3 has been a good number for Skeletal Scryings so far. My theory about only running 3 draw spells in this deck, is that I will probably not want to cast one until I have exhauseted my hand, which gives me plenty of time to draw it.

[Zilla]

@Godzilla: Adding Skeletal Scryings will actually not hurt the burn matchup very much, becuase I cut Wasteland for them, which is also a very useless card against burn. Life loss in the aggro matchup has never really been an issue for me, even back when I ran it in a control deck with only 2 Absorbs for life gain.
You cut cards that were bad in the Burn matchup for cards that are worse in the Burn matchup. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing your old control deck wasn't running Ancient Tombs. The issue here is that Burn can already race Angel Stompy a decent percentage of the time without Scrying. Add Scrying into the mix and it's only going to get worse.

As I said before, Jitte and Angel are wonderful ways to offset this problem if they come online fast enough, which is a big if, particularly if you're helping them win the damage race with Scrying. Assuming it's in your opening hand, Jitte will rarely come online before turn 3, and Angel will rarely be hardcast and attacking before turn 6. Burn can often remove the threats you're trying to equip with Jitte (and if they can't then it's going to be active turn 4 or 5 since you're putting it on a 2cc threat), and they can easily remove a morph before you have a chance to flip it.

What this means is that your lifegain is typically coming online between turn 5 and 6. These would be the turns that Burn is killing you. Especially so because you're running Tombs. Scrying only compounds the problem. It gets worse after board, since Burn will bring in Needle or Disenchant for Jitte and/or CoP:Red, and very likely Sulfuric Vortex to shut down your lifegain game 2.

A weakening of the Burn matchup may not be enough of a reason not to run Scrying, but it's a mistake to think it's not going to negatively impact that matchup.

[midnightAce]

This might sound kind of "out there", but I believe, Scry is only needed against Control Matchups... I know, the notion of SBing card draw is crazy, but it might be applicable here. Against burn, no Scry main would mean more threats, more life gain, more outs. Against Control, with Scry means a instant card draw, and more stuff that Control needs to counter. Basically I'm suggesting putting Scry in the SB. Thoughts? (This applies STRICTLY on 3cAS, I have alternate versions of MonoWAS (better Landstill matchup) under construction at the moment.)

[legacyplayer]

Zilla: In my metagame, there is very little burn. And when there is, it is always a suboptimal list, and is usually played incorrectly. If you have a problem with burn in your metagame, put in some CoP Reds, or Warmths, or Chills to board in for the Scryings. If Skeletal Scrying doesn't work at your local tournaments, then take it out. If burn beats you, put some cards in the sideboard for it. It's a free country. Do what works. Skeletal Scrying is completely metagame dependent.

@MidnightAce: Again, Skeletal Scrying is a metagame card, and should not be run, if there is a lot of aggro around.

Thankyou both for your oppinions.

[84-1122323563]

I think that burn.dec is in the same boat we are; once the steam runs out we're both in topdeck mode. So our sideboard changes, and the Tividar's Crusade comes out for Chill. Vial Goblins will play around Tiv's Crusade anyway and Chill's a way bigger pain in the ass because now they have to depend primarily on Vial. Add to that the fact that Chill's a more lateral answer and the Scrying issues are softened.
@Vial-Standstill: I just don't trust Standstill in decks that aren't focused intently on exploiting it. We're not playing any free spells, not dropping manlands and not drawing counters when Standstill breaks. Sure it's that whole card advantage thing but I don't think it's doing what it does in, say, Fish; making the deck do what it's supposed to more consistently.

[Zilla]

@Vial-Standstill: I just don't trust Standstill in decks that aren't focused intently on exploiting it. We're not playing any free spells, not dropping manlands and not drawing counters when Standstill breaks. Sure it's that whole card advantage thing but I don't think it's doing what it does in, say, Fish; making the deck do what it's supposed to more consistently.
Truth. Like I said, I tried it, and the deck ended up evolving into WW/u, since its curve abused Vial better, and it wasn't running Manlands. That said, there's not much stopping this deck from running Mishra's of its own... and while you might not have "free" spells (I'm assuming you mean FoW and Daze here), Standstill can stall the early game long enough to ramp into 4 mana, and as soon as your opponent breaks it, draw you into a game-ending 'geddon. Just a thought.

[legacyplayer]

At Big Arse II, burn and vial goblins both had about half a dozen players each, so with an equal balance between goblins and burn, Chill seems much better than Engineered Plague. At the next large tournament or two, the balance between goblins and burn will probably be roughly the same as at Big Arse II. Both decks made, and placed highly in the top 8, so if anything, their popularity will rise. As long as this remains true, Chill is the most logical choice.

[Zilla]

One thing to note about the red matchup: more and more Burn and Goblins builds are going mono-red, relying on Needle to stop CoP:Red, and on REB to combat Chill. If this is the case in your meta, then Pariah or Worship may actually be better choices for red hate. The reason being that Chill can be answered with REB, isn't actually very strong against Vial Goblins unless you also shut down their vials, and doesn't answer the threats they play before you resolve Chill.

Pariah on one of your 8 Pro:Red creatures, or Worship in conjunction with one of said creatures is literally game over for a mono-red deck not running Anarchy in the board. Even if they are running Anarchy, these cards put your opponent on the defensive, and instead of trying to win, they must try not to lose until they can find their answers.

Something worth consideration. It's definitely a meta call, but it's can be much more effective hate than Chill against both decks.

[legacyplayer]

The problem with that is that I will have to board in needle too, to take out Cursed Scroll. I would rather just board in Chill, becuase it is an all-around better card.

[Zilla]

The problem with that is that I will have to board in needle too, to take out Cursed Scroll.
This is only true if your opponent is running Scrolls, which most Burn players don't. In the end it's a metagame call though.

[Zilla]

Moved to Open, since this deck performed well at both BA2 and made 14th place at GP: Philly. Nice work, Philip. If you could update the opening post with the current list, that'd be good. - Zilla

[legacyplayer0]

@Zilla:Thanks for moving the thread. I hope it will result in some fresh ideas from other players. Anyway, here's the current list.

W/b/u Angel Stopmy by Phil Stolze

4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Meddling Mage
4 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Silver Knight
2 Chrome Mox
4 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Ancient Tomb
5 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
3 Nightmare Void
3 Armageddon
2 Seal of Cleansing

And here's a pathetically undetailed tourney report: I started round 3 2-0 from byes, and was paired with Goblins, which I beat quite easily. This continued for the rest of the day, only to be interupted by a 2-0 against Black/Red Flame Vault which I beat 2-0, and a R/w sligh deck which I beat 2-1. Day two started out the same way as day one, with a round 9 victory against Goblins. The next round was against a R/u/b fish/sligh deck, which I beat 2-0 with Jitte and Silver Knight. There is a summary of this round on Magicthegathering.com that goes into a lot more detail. After that round things started going downhill with a loss to Fish, Lighning Rift Control, and Salvagers/Game. From there I drew into 14th in round 14. The only thing I regret deck-wise is being totally unprepared to play against fish.

Props:
Akki for giving me his Egg McMuffin on day 2.
Kirdape3 for fixing my sideboard.
Isochronic_Scepter for getting me a ride to Philly.
Jitte.

Slops:
That R/w Sligh player for being very, very unsportsmanlike.
Isochronic_Scepter for farting relentlessly on the way there and back.

I went to sleep at 3:30 last night, so I will have to wait until tommorow to explain my card choices.

[tivadar]

Wow, just a comment on the current decklist, it rolls over and dies to engineered explosives/powder keg. Have you tested this deck against gro/nqg? The deck is becoming rather popular, and it T8'ed in the GP (I was lucky enough to face it with my W/u stompy first round, went 1/2).

The issue with the deck is they can deny you your key cards, mainly your equipment, and get out a 6/6 flyer that you have very few big threats to deal with. Also the deck is REMARKABLY consistent due to good digging, whereas angel stompy can very commonly go a long time looking for equipment. You're also not running Mask of Memory which makes you even more susceptible to this. You may get in a couple quick swings against the deck, but the chances of you having an equipped creature out by turn 3, when they hit their threshold, seems pretty slim.

I'm still sticking with W/u, as I don't feel black is a necessity, but just some things to look at. I'd suggest considering cards like brainstorm and serum visions. While they may lower your threat count, since you don't have many one drops at this point (duress excluded), they serve very nicely to construct your hand/turns so you don't run into dead draws. Also, dropping a couple creatures really doesn't hurt when running dig in its place, because essentially it gives you options. My current build runs only 18 creatures and 20 mana sources, 4 of which are fetch. I probably only mulligan once every 10 or so games. I run 4 BS and 4 SV. If I have a dual or island in my opener, I'm basically good to go.

SOTP just seems like the wrong choice. It's really only good against landstill, as the other big decks that use graveyard recursion don't do it with permanents. Yes, it's a 3/3 when blocking, but it's also another two drop. Also, landstill I think is becoming somewhat less popular given its poor performance at the GP. I've been looking at smoothing out the mana curve a bit (I too had a bunch of 2 drops...), and have started considering serendib efreet (watch out in the burn match though...), and nagao, bound by honor. At this point, I believe I've decided to MD 3 serendib's, and found nagao just a bit too slow for my liking.

Really, all I'm saying is that if you're going to splash colors, take advantage of them. The deck has plenty in the form of draw power if it gets creatures on the table, and blue draw is rather expensive (though I think you have a good idea with skeletal scrying...), however, blue offers the best hand sculpting out there, which I think is something most people don't take advantage of. Meddling is a must keep as it shuts down most combo and hinders landstill and even gobbo. As for black, I haven't done much playing with it, so I'll let you figure out what it offers that should be taken advantage of. Good luck running the deck, though, and I'm always open to new ideas myself.

EDIT: Sorry, heh, didn't realize it was you that suggested Efreet. Don't always take a good look at the names. Anyways, good suggestion.

[legacyplayer0]

I fully agree with you that changes need to be made to adjust to the new metagame. I have tested against Landstill with Powder Keg in the sideboard, but it was never as good in practice as it was in theory, and most of the time it only took out one or two cards. I also have Pithing Needle and Seal of Cleansing to combat it.
I expect the new metagame to have a lot of gro and goblins, with a bit of landstill, fish, and possibly some imitations of Pikula's deck. That means the KoAL count should probably go up to 4, becuase I will have twice the standstills to worry about. SotPC is definitely a keeper, becuase it is good against not only landstill, but goblins(bigger than all their guys), fish(bigger than all their guys too), gro(trades with mogoose and is bigger than werebear with SoFI), and also against that new Salvager combo deck that t8'd. Serendib Efreet has been tested(I was the guy who suggested it to you), and was pretty good. Something else I would like to play is Glittering Lynx(Akki tech). Brainstorm would be great too with the six fetchlands I run. I'd love to start playing Spectral Lynx again with gro on the rise. The problem with all these cards is that there is little to no room for them. There just isn't anything to cut. I'll probably retest most of these cards against the new gauntlet, but most of them won't make it.

The sideboard on the other hand has a couple things I'd like to get rid of, namely Nightmare Void. It hasn't been my weapon of choice against slow control for very long, but I've been finding a lot of things about it that annoy me. First is that even if I get it going against Landstill or Monowhite Control, I can still lose to a topdecked Eternal Dragon or a fat Decree. Another thing is that it has terrible synergy with Armageddon. I also find myself running low on threats after dredging for a while, and sometimes I'll have to sit there and draw cards so I can get enough lands that don't Shock me every time I tap them. Nightmare Void also happens to get stopped by graveyard removal, which should become very common after 3 gro decks have t8'd. It will probably get replaced by Skeletal Scrying, but that would require me to cut of side out my Samurai. Suggestions for other replacements would be very much appreciated.

Thanks for the feedback and good luck with your W/u version.

[tivadar]

I tried Mnemonic Nexus against NQG, but it was too cost prohibitive. Crypt is obviously the best way to go. The obvious problem, however, is that Null Rod is a swift kick in the... well, you know. Your only artifact removal are your two seal of cleansings in your board. First turn Pithing, second Null Rod won't be pretty. Granted most decks don't run both of these, but I've seen enough Gro decks running Null Rod and Stifle at least.

[legacyplayer0]

I tried Brainstorm in place of SotPC, and it was very good. The synergy with fetchlands was awsome, and it let me get my jittes faster. I also tried Skeletal Scrying in place of Nightmare Void in the sideboard, and it was very good too, becuase it's a lot more flexible.

[noobslayer]

Phil, had you considered glittering lynx in the Kami slot? I know it isn't thinking majorly, but I know locally there is really only 1-2 landstill decks, and only one is good (Isochronic_Scepter). He keeps up the density, no one wants to block him early game, and if you can get a jitte on him, it's GG's. He also provides a turn 1 drop, which shuts lackey right off.

[kirdape3]

Glittering Lynx hits for 1, whereas Savannah Lions or Isamaru hit for 2. That matters a whole lot.

[legacyplayer0]

I'll have to agree with kirdape on this, becuase though I'd like to find room for Glittering Lynx, there just isn't enough need for it. It's decent, but there are plenty of other cards that are better.

[tivadar]

Yeah, heh, I was decrying the benefits of BS over on the UW thread. It can shuffle cards you don't need, search for creatures or equipment, and hide your good cards against a discard deck. In addition, if you add BS, consider lowering the landcount, as a single dual and BS means you can almost definetly nab another land.

[legacyplayer0]

I used 2 Serendib Efreet last Sunday in place of 1 duress and 1 Angel, and for the most part it was a good trade. I went 4-1, losing 1-2 to a deck that killed me with Serra Angel proteced by Power Sink, because my deck decided to hide all my creatures from me. I almost died from the upkeep damage once against white weenie, but the undercostedness of it was well worth the risk. I'll try taking a land out next week, and will update on that after the tournament.

[scars4eyes]

I have a question, does Skeletal Scrying belong maindeck? Is the card too risky?

edited
Capitalization, please. Thanks. -Zilla

[legacyplayer0]

I had it in the maindeck for a while, but I found that most of the time it got sided out, so it should be in the sideboard only.
About taking out a land; it didn't work. I mulliganed way too many times last week. It also made me unable to take out chrome mox in some of the matches where I would like to, which made sideboarding a more annoying thing than it used to be.

[legacyplayer0]

Well, I made top 8 at the running GAGG, so I thought I would try to get some more discussion started, because this deck is far from dead.

Philip Stolze-Three Color Angel Stompy-Seed #1
Fifth Place

Main Deck:

4xTundra
4xScrubland
4xPlains
2xFlooded Strand
4xWindswept Heath
2xAncient Tomb

2xKami of Ancient Law
4xSilver Knight
4xSoltari Priest
4xMeddling Mage
4xExalted Angel
4xDuress
4xBrainstorm
3xSword of Fire and Ice
2xVendetta
4xSwords to Plowshares
2xChrome Mox
3xUmezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

4xEngineered Plague
2xPithing Needle
2xDisenchant
2xTormod's Crypt
3xArmageddon
2xSkeletal Scrying

At the running GAGG, I swept the first four rounds, beating blue fish with a small red splash, ATS, and two GU/r thresh decks, and then drew into the top 8. In the quarterfinals, I lost to the fish deck that I beat in round one, becuase my deck crapped out on me in the third game, and I was on the losing end of two Standstills.

New additions:
Vendetta- I felt that I needed to have more 1cc removal, and Vendetta was the perfect candidate, because it could take down anything STP could, and is only bad against Deadguy Ale, which is still very slanted in my favor.

Tormod's Crypt- I have neglected to devote sideboard room to Threshhold in the past, becuase I can beat them without it, barring any god-draws on the part of the Gro deck, but becuase it became tier 1, I found room for a couple Crypts. I play them over furnace/Planar Void, becuase I didn't want to spend a lot of sideboard slots, so I needed something that would be good at any point in the game as opposed to just the beginning.

[thenick2000]

Angel Stompy seems to have done very well for you Phil, dating back the the GPT in Rochester, GP Philly, and the GAAG Tournament in Geneseo on Saturday.

I believe your deck has a great game against any of the Tier 1 decks in the Legacy Metagame today and thats why you have been so successful playing it. It was a very bad break getting paired with Trevor in the Top 8 and losing. Just think if I won my last match, I would of made Top 8 and you would probably crushed me as I was playing Grow with the red splash, a very good matchup for you.

Anyways, I was wondering if you could do a matchup breakdown between the popular decks in Legacy at the moment since you have played the deck quite a bit. I'll appreciate that, thanks.

[legacyplayer0]

Goblins:This is the easiest matchup possible. If I play aggressively, then it is very difficult for goblins to race. After sideboard, I bring in the disenchants and needles along with Engineered Plague, becuase the only way they can win is through Aether Vial brokenness.

Threshhold: The GU/r matchup is pretty easy, becuase I have pro-red guys, and my equipment makes my creatures just as big as their's, which is really good when I have twice as many creatures as them. White threshhold is harder, becuase they have meddling mage for Jitte, but it's still quite favorable.

White control and Rifter: These matches usually aren't easy. I normally lose game one if I can't stop the early mass removal, or if Humility resolves and I don't have Jitte, so most of the time it's a lost cause. After board, they get Sacred Ground if they have it, but it isn't really that good. I get Disenchant, Armageddon, and Skeletal Scrying. Disenchant is there for Rift/Humility/Sacred Ground. Armageddon and Skeletal Scrying are there so I can windmill slam them onto the table and win the game shortly afterwards. Random piece of knowledge: Nightmare Void is not nearly as good as it looks.

B/w Deadguy: It isn't obvious when watching a match, but this is a really easy matchup. Equipment is really, really good. During the first few turns, we throw spells at each other until no one has any cards left, but my deck topdecks so much better, that winning the match doesn't require any more skill than drawing cards one at a time and casting them.

Solidarity: This matchup is very suspenseful, but I usually win. Duress and Meddling Mage are so good, and Sword of Fire and Ice is usually game over if it gets equipped to a Meddling Mage. In the board, I have Armageddon, which makes things a little easier than in game one.

Random other combo (Belcher, Salvagers, ect.): Very easy barring any mana screw issues.

Fish: This deck made me scrub out of the Ed Fear's Lotus tournament, lose in the quarterfinals at the Running GAGG, and miss top 8 at GP:Philly. It isn't that bad a matchup, but my deck always seems to fall a little short when it really matters. Standstill can be a very bad thing, as well as equipment. I'm hoping that the addition of Vedetta will help a bit.

This doesn't deal with a specific matchup, but most of the time when I lose, it's becuase my deck draws dead for a few turns. Adding Brainstorm has helped a bit, but I think I might need Serum Visions. If anyone has any other suggestions, it would be much appreciated.

[Joe Eigo]

I dont think Vendetta is a good choice for this deck. it doesnt help in any matchup except randomness and goblins (which is already easy or lets say favourable). Maybe Parallax Wave would make more of a cut, even if its cost is at 4 or try out some Visions in its place.

Btw I really liked SotPC in the deck, since its bushido is also very effective against mongooses.


Other than that your list looks really good and grats to the good finish!

[tivadar]

I've been running SV in the Wu version and have been very happy with it. Also, if constructed right, it means even better topdecking for you because you can reduce the number of lands/fetchers that you have. When I'm doing my "land" count I always include tithe and chrome in this count. With SV and BS, a first turn island/tundra means typically at least one other land. I'm running 19 "lands" right now and very rarely mulligan. I don't run tithe anymore, because typically it will only nab you one land anyways, and even if you do get two, they're still just lands, and drawing tithe late in the game doesn't help. Drawing SV or BS late in the game, however, is awesome.

@Joe: I agree, I don't think Vendetta is the way to go either. Removing a single Fish creature isn't going to do the job, you really want to remove all of them. Though I don't normally advocate Wave, perhaps it is the right answer here... Also, what about a good old-fashioned wrath of god?

While I'm thinking of it, quick question as well. Our UGW gro matchup is good pre-board, but we're much more easily hated out than they are (generally). Any good board suggestions against them? I've tried crypt, but they're good at filling up their graveyard quickly as well. In addition, they're just good at keeping threats off the board. I've tried geddon as well, and think it may be a good choice if you can get board position on them. Can even lead to them being MS'ed. Any thoughts, I don't run black, but of course, there's planar void. The problem is if you don't get it in openers, they're just going to hit threshold and then you have a dead card...

[legacyplayer0]

My reasons for choosing Vendetta are that it really helps against gro, fish and randomness. My biggest problem against gro is losing to their big fliers, becuase I can usually beat them in a ground war, but need to remove Fledgling Dragon ASAP. Against fish, it is very important to keep Serendib Efreet from sticking around, and creature removal is my best defense against equipment in game one. Randomness, dumb as it may sound is my biggest weakness. In December, which was the most recent time I did weekly legacy events, I would win four of the five matches, and then lose one to the most rogue, and usually the worst deck I was paired with. A rogue deck with a focused goal is really hard to deal with, but Vendetta can usually help. The only real complaint I have is that it can't kill Mystic Enforcer, which is really annoying, and will probably lead to the removal of Vendetta from the deck. The problem is that there is a lack of decent removal that is both cheap and not black at the same time. I'll probably end up replacing it with Serum Visions, becuase it can help me with my mana clump problems, and draw me into my REAL Swords to Plowshares. Wrath of God could be okay, but I could definitely see it sitting around in my hand a lot, either becuase of a lack of mana, or becuase I have multiple creatures out. Having one or two in the maindeck could be a cool idea though, just becuase it's a great topdeck, and it would make my opponent have to play around it. I really dislike Paralax Wave, because my deck plays more of a Gro-like strategy than a traditional white weenie deck. I need a permenant way to remove creatures, becuase my opponent will probably live to see his creatures return if I play a Wave on turn four.
@Joe Eigo:My reason behind removing SoTPC is becuase after I found out how good brainstorm is in this deck, I needed something to remove, and SoTPC was the most unnecesary part of the deck, and really doesn't compare to the other creatures.
@tividar:I've always found a couple Tormod's Crypts to be enough to beat gro, becuase I don't like using up too much space on sideboard for a favorable matchup, and even if they get to have threshold, I can usually win. Their real purpose is to draw counters and Needles so I can use my equipment.

[Zilla]

@Vendetta:

I agree, I'm not a fan. You want to beat Gro specifically? Run Perish. You want to beat creature strategies in general? Run Parallax Wave. I have a hard time understanding why people take it out, honestly. I'll hear people say thing like "such and such deck has a positive matchup against Angel Stompy." And I'll go, "how is that deck dealing with StP, Jitte, SoFI and Parallax Wave as removal?" And inevitably, they go, "the version I tested against wasn't running Parallax Wave." And I go, "Funny, I've tested that matchup a bunch, and it's positive for Angel Stompy. Then again, I have Parallax Wave."

The main thing is this: as you said, Phil, what you really need is a singular answer to singular big threats like Dragon and Enforcer. It's okay to play Parallax Wave and only remove that one big threat with it. You don't have to take every other threat off the board - just the one or two that are giving you problems. I find that I rarely have trouble finishing the game in 5 turns after the fourth, as long as my opponent's giant beater is out of picture. And even if I do, that's 5 extra turns to draw into one of your StP's. The fact that Wave protects your own threats from mass and even targeted removal is just icing on the cake. I feel it's one of the strongest cards in the deck in an aggro metagame, and it's probably a mistake to remove it.

@Wrath of God:

In an aggro deck? Sounds like a pretty awful idea to me. You can technically slowplay your threats and repeatedly reset the board, but that's very limiting to you tactically. In some instances, you want to be able to go all out aggro, committing everything you've got to the board. Wave facilitates this. Wrath makes it unfeasible against opposing aggro strategies.

@ The Thresh matchup:

Depends what you're having trouble with. Tivadar, you say red is fairly easy, but white is harder because we're more easily hated out after board. I'm not sure what you're referring to, aside from Worship. If that's what you're having trouble with, I'll tell you how to beat it. Run Worship yourself. Seriously. They have more draw than you, most Gro builds don't run Naturalize these days, and they don't have nearly enough removal to take out all your threats. In many cases, a resolved Worship against Gro means game. Just win by decking them. It's inelegant as hell but it works.

[legacyplayer0]

The problem with paralax wave is that I have so many better things to do with four mana, than temporarily remove one or two threats. I would much rather remove one threat permenantly for one mana than stall two for four mana. I would also like to stress that I'm not advocating wrath of god in the current metagame either.

[tivadar]

Sorry, I'll make myself clearer. I said we were much more easily hated out than they were, not that it was particularly easy to hate us out. What I mean to say is that they can bring in goose, worship, null rod, and engineered explosives against us, and we have fewer board options than them. You're right though, worship can work, and I've actually been debating it.

What I'm trying to drive at is that the first match is fairly close, then we go to boards, and their options tend to be a lot better than ours. Namely, if they're boarding null rod, that REALLY hurts us, sure we can put in disenchant, but then it's a potentially dead card. If they're boarding in EE, then they tend to get at least a 2-1 card advantage with it as well. Even pithing can shut down mother or equipment. At GP (keep in mind, I was playing a somewhat suboptimal list for Wu), my first matchup was ben goodman. First game I took by winning momentum. Second game he swept 2 of my guys with one EE, an unmorphed angel with another, and basically took the momentum, the same thing basically happened third game as well.

Worship deserves testing, but god do I hate their goose! I was actually playing Voice of All for a time, just because they couldn't actually hit it (4 mana is out of their EE range, and Pro:White protects against STP).

[Joe Eigo]

Has anyone tested Confidant in this deck ? I know that the list is very tight but i can imagine he fits nicely into the deck, since we have also some lifegain in jitte and angel. Any ideas ? Cut Meddling Mage for more discard and change Brainstorm to Confidant is my actual thinking, but i dont know if its the right way.

[Lego]

Topdecking Angel two turns in a row with Confidant in play is less than fun, to say the least. I'm guessing that's why he's not run.

[Bardo]

For controlling fat, i.e. the Vendetta slots, how about Whipcorder? He's good bolt-bait if you need to bluff an Angel, and he controls Enforcer, Dragon, Rumbling Slum, etc. for minimal investment. At worse, he's a 2/2 for WW that can pick up a Jitte or Sword and trade with or tap down a Piledriver.

I'm running the two-color version of this deck and I'm really digging it. You can see my list and rationale for card choices here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27084.msg406290#msg406290).

Nice work legacyplayer0. :)

[imran]

Well, I made top 8 at the running GAGG, so I thought I would try to get some more discussion started, because this deck is far from dead.

Philip Stolze-Three Color Angel Stompy-Seed #1
Fifth Place

Main Deck:

4xTundra
4xScrubland
4xPlains
2xFlooded Strand
4xWindswept Heath
2xAncient Tomb

2xKami of Ancient Law
4xSilver Knight
4xSoltari Priest
4xMeddling Mage
4xExalted Angel
4xDuress
4xBrainstorm
3xSword of Fire and Ice
2xVendetta
4xSwords to Plowshares
2xChrome Mox
3xUmezawa's Jitte


I have a few questions regarding the list you played:

1. Manabase: You are playing currently with 6 Fetchlands. I see the synergy with Brainstorm. But have you ever thought about using 1 or 2 City of Brass? Despite the fact, that they deal 1 damage they provide you the mana you need. As long as your life is not dropping to 0 you can use it as a resource. How often have been color screwed? I guess its not that easy to provide Brainstorm (blue) and Duress (black) consistently on your first turn.

2. Kami of Ancient Law: What is your meta, that you need to play the Kami maindeck? Have you ever considered Mana Leak in these slots?

3. Equipment: Currently you are running 18 creatures and 6 pieces (18/6) of Equipment. As far as I know the currently accepted configuration if 7/2, with your creature count resulting into 18/5. Had you ever the problem of being Equipment flooded?

4. Splash: Blue provides you Brainstorm and Meddling Mage, Black gives you Duress and Vendetta. Have you ever tried a red splash with Boros Swiftblade/Goblin Legionnaire and Lightning Bolt in Combination with Blue or Black? Wur or Wbr? The Swiftblade/Jitte combo could overwhelm an unprepared opponent pretty quickly. What do you think about splashing Meddling Mage, Brainstorm, Boros Swiftblade and Lightning Bolt? The most important thing you would loose, is the first turn Duress (giving AS a good game against combo/control. I would already thinking about playing AS in a non-aggro meta.

[legacyplayer0]

@Confidant-I might try it, but as a 2-of at the most, becuase 2 confidants in play is suicide, and even one by itself could be a problem.

@Whipcorder-Vendetta has been cut for Serum Visions, so there really isn't any room for a mediocre creature.

@Kami of Ancient Law-This card sucks now, and it's definitely getting cut, probably for a couple bobs.

@Equipment ratio-I haven't had any problems with having too much equipment. I don't need as many creatures as the other builds, becuase duress takes out creature kill most of the time, which makes up for fewer creatures in relation to the ammount of equipment.

@Mana base-The reason that these splashes are able to work is becuase I hardly ever have to use the same color of splash mana twice in a small period of time, and six of my blue cards can draw me into more mana. For example, if I cast duress on turn one and my scrubland dies to a sinkhole, I don't care, becuase I don't need black mana anymore. One of the strengths of having so many fetch-lands is that I can sit on them until I need the colored mana, and then I won't need it any more.

@other splashes-Other splashes have been discussed and dismissed earlier in the thread, and not enought has changed since then to warrant another discussion on splash colors.

[imran]

@ bops - What do you mean with that?

@ Mana Base - Understood, but the question is. You have one Fetchland, one Brainstorm and one Duress and only plains in you opening hand. What do you do? If you use the Fetchland for a Scrubland, than you cant play the Brainstorm on the next turn. The two cards are essential to be played in the first couple of turns. Your scenario says, that if you use the Scrubland and it is sinkholed in the next turn, than it doesnt matter, cause you only wanted to play the duress, but what then? In the next round you dont have a Fetchland to search for the Tundra and you stuck on a dead card for a couple of turns. So the question is now, how often are you color screwed, and I am not talking about the first spell you want to play. Isnt it easier to play 2 City of Brass and 4 Fetchland to avoid the problems? Just think about a version with Duress and Meddling Mage, you NEED Black, Blue and White in the first 2 turns, which is just too risky with only one Fetchland in you starting hand.

Any thoughts?

[noobslayer]

@imran
bop should be Bob= dark Confidant. Having one Bob is safe. I played Phil's deck this past weekend, and having one Bob on the table was fine, but because you run into some danger because you flop an angel over, you need to be exceedingly careful. My words of advice, make sure you can get a jitte equipped and going as quick as possible once Bob hits the board.

And at your situation, it really comes down to your gut, I'd probably brainstorm for the mana, just to get going. If there was more information on what else is in hand, that would have been better.

[imran]

@ bob
Thanks for the information, I guess I have just forgotten it.

@ Guts
I don't know whether its really a matter of guts or not? Playing magic should not have anything to do with guts, rather than skill. So why provoke my luck rather than using 2 City of Brass? I get more consistency for 1 Life per mana. You have Exalted and Jitte, each enabling you to use the City 4 times to balance your life loss out.

Maybe I am just wrong.

[Lego]

@ Guts
I don't know whether its really a matter of guts or not?

I don't think he meant Guts as in Bravery, but rather your "gut instinct." This is an aspect of playskill, wherein sometimes you will have played the deck so much that you will just have to trust your gut to know which is the correct play.

[legacyplayer0]

@imran:With the hand you discribed, the best choice in most cases would be to brainstorm. From there, you should be tapping out every turn for a while to cast creatures and equipment while you beat down. After the brainstorm, there will be demand for all available mana for the next few turns with or without duress. By the time you have extra mana, and nothing to use it on but black spells, you will have drawn into black mana. I don't need black and blue mana on turn two, I need black or blue mana. City of Brass would serve the same function as a fetchland, but weaker against wasteland, more damaging life-wise, and without the ability to shuffle the library.

[tivadar]

Since Zilla's posting to regular AS about going with City of Traitors I've been trying them out in my manabase for the UW version of this deck. As was, I had a spot that I had 2 chrome mox in, but they just didn't feel right... Anyways, I've liked what I've seen. I'm trying to play under the philosophy that turn 1 is for the setup. I don't plan to play any creatures that turn, but I like to jettison into a T2 creature -> T3 equipped swing, or morphed exalted swing. Dropping mother meant I didn't have to worry about playing it T1. I've also been looking at more 1 color mana commitments. I won't give up silvers or meddlings, they're just too good, but it's nice to be able to T2 Serendib -> T3 Sofi/Jitte. I'm also exploring Kitsune Bladesinger (2/2 bushido 1 first strike) and it seems to work fairly well in testing. Not sure how this will affect this deck, but you may want to take a look at it.

Just so you know, I'm currently running 19 lands (3 City, 2 Tomb) with 4 BS and 4 SV to help me get the mana I need. This isn't on the mainpage for the deck yet as I want to run some more testing.

[Lego]

Kitsune Bladesinger (2/2 bushido 1 first strike) and it seems to work fairly well in testing. Not sure how this will affect this deck, but you may want to take a look at it.

It's Blademaster, but we knew what you meant. He's a 3/3 First Striker in combat, so he can tangle with a threshed Mongoose and live to tell about it, which is nice, but he's also a 2/2 for three... he does only have a single colored requirement, but he still seems above curve for the deck.

[imran]

@ tivadar
Which cards do you splash?
As far as I can see
4 x Meddling Mage
? x Serendib Efreet
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Serum Visions

Isnt that too much library manipulation? It seems to me, as if you are manipulating more than threatening. It would be really helpful to get a complete list.

Regarging the Kitsune Bladesinger. I agree with Lego_Army_Man that its above the curve of the deck. Just compare him with Serendib, 4 toughness and Evasion seems to be the better deal.

Currently the most appealing spashes are
Duress
Brainstorm
Serendib
Meddling Mage

What I have to offer is a red splash
Boros Swiftblade
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
Fire/Uce

Has anybody thought about a using Isochron Scepter?

[Dr.ugs]

Has anybody thought about a using Isochron Scepter?


Jitte > Sceptor

[tivadar]

@lego, imran: Yeah, I think Blademaster is the wrong choice. Though he's nice against goose/factory, he is only a 2/2. As for him costing 3, that's not so much of an issue if the manabase is shifted. 2W is just about as easy to get as WW for the deck. I mainly suggested him when considering replacing chrome mox with city of traitors. If you're only running 3 Ancient Tombs, he doesn't get powered out consistently enough.

@Isochron: Isochron is for control, it slows your pace down heavily and doesn't kill your opponent. Drugs is right, Jitte is superior.

@Imran: I really like the 8 library manipulation cards. They guarantee that I get what I need to beat with most of the time and let me run a dangerously low landcount (19 lands with 4 fetch). Typically, I've found they don't really slow me down too much, as I devote turn 1 to manipulation, then fit them in where I can on other turns. There are a couple situations, but the biggest of those is against gobbo, where I'd like to do turn 1 manipulation, turn 2 silver knight. This means I have to play Tundra, which is susceptible to wasteland, on turn 1.

My list is currently at 4 Serendib, 4 Silver, 4 Meddling, 4 Exalted, 2-4 Other
I'm also running 5 equip (jitte and sofi), along with 4 stp, 4 force of will (read as duress for this deck), and 2 pithings if the "Other" is at 2. Serendibs used to be less, and I used to run more Moms, but from what I've seen, mom may protect you, but it's also a weak swinger. Even against gro, if you want to use it in combat, there's a good chance your opponent will STP in response to tapping it. Darkblast also sucks for it...

[imran]

@ Isochron
I know that the Jitte is better than the Scepter but I was thinking about a configuration like this

3 Jitte
2 Swords of Fire and Ice
1 Isochron Scepter

@ Library Manipulation vs. Threats
I would rather burn the Goblin with a Lightning Bolt away than to risk to do some cool library manipulation and have the risk the get "wastelanded".

@ Force of Will
I can see your effort to run these, but in my opinion, your threats are not "fast" enough to kill your opponent, while you are countering a spell to buy yourself another turn.
I still recommend the Boros Swiftblade.

While you try to slow down the game down with Meddling Mage and Force of Will/Duress, he can sneak under the defence and make a lot of damage, maybe lethal. Just equip this guy with either Sword or Jitte and look at your opponents face.

[tivadar]

@ Force of Will
I can see your effort to run these, but in my opinion, your threats are not "fast" enough to kill your opponent, while you are countering a spell to buy yourself another turn.
I still recommend the Boros Swiftblade.

While you try to slow down the game down with Meddling Mage and Force of Will/Duress, he can sneak under the defence and make a lot of damage, maybe lethal. Just equip this guy with either Sword or Jitte and look at your opponents face.

I'm certainly willing to consider this, and it's definetly been discussed on regular angel stompy. WR angel stompy, as of yet, is unproven though. My suggestion is to run some tests and get some results, and then actually make a decklist post on the developmental forum. Also, notice that Force doesn't slow my pace down at all, and duress is only a minor pace slowdown. As for threats not being big enough... well, angel and serendib are no laughing matter, especially when equipped. Serendib is almost exclusively better than Boros in my opinion, as he survives a bolt or cycled gempalm a lot better. Also boros cries to silver knight, and without equipment, boros is just a mediocre creature.

[legacyplayer0]

@Isochron Scepter- There are 8 imprint targets for Scepter. They are all one-drops. None of them are especially powerful considering the cost that Isochron Scepter requires. Equipent cards on the other hand are good with about 20 cards in this deck. They fit the mana curve, and are worth the mana spent on them. The lesson: Every card in this deck>Isochron Scepter.

@Force of Will- There is no need for Force of Will as long as black is in the deck, becuase of Duress.

@Red splash: Please don't discuss that in this thread. It has already been discusses and rejected earlier, and if you think it has potential, start a thread on it.

[imran]

@ Isochron Scepter
Agreed with legacyplayer0

@ Force of Will
Agreed with legacyplayer0

@ Red Splash/Boros Guildmage
Agreed with legacyplayer0 and tivadar

@ legacyplayer0
It would be really helpful to see a decklist. I know, that you have changed a few things, such as adding 4 Serum Visions and stuff like that. So the question is, could you please post a complete decklist? I still have some concerns about the draw engine.

[legacyplayer0]

3c Angel Stompy(3-18-06)
Phil Stolze

4 Scrubland
4 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
4 Duress
2 Dark Confidant
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Meddling Mage
4 Exalted Angel
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle

[imran]

@ legacyplayer0
Thanks for posting the latest decklist. I have a few questions regarding this.

@ Ancient Tomb
Why do you play only two Ancient Tomb? You have 4 Exalted Angels, that means, that you are risking having 2 in your opening hand. The question is, why only 2 Ancient Tomb along with 4 Exalted Angels?

@ Serum Visions
I know that you want to maximise the shuffling effects, the question is why?
To you want to put lands back on your library? I guess not, you have only 20. Do you want to avoid damage from the Confidant? I think so, but you have only 2 Confidants, meaning, that you are wasting 4 slots to make this "combo" smoother.
The question is, why do you want Serum Visions in the deck? Have you ever thought about Stifle in the deck? It would allow you to play the aggro-control mode, enabling you to stifle Fetchlands and the Goblin Lackey ability.

@ Dark Confidant
How is this guy working out for you? Ever lost due to the life loss?

@ Sword of Fire and Ice
You are currently playing with 3 Swords and 3 Jitte. Have you ever thought about adding one Steelshapers Gift and cutting one Sword?

@ Increase of threats
What happened with Serendib Efreet?
Have ever thought about adding Wasteland?
Have you ever thought about adding Winter Orb?

@ Draw engine
Currently you have only the Dark Confidant as a draw engine. What about adding Standstill?
I know it sounds crazy, but I am using it in a Zoo deck as a draw engine and it works perfectly.

Whenever I have a small advantage over the opponent, I simply play Standstill. If I have one creature and the opponent none, I play standstill, just that simple.
If you have a creature in play and an equipment, just play standstill, that’s it.
What do you think?

[tivadar]

@ legacyplayer0
Thanks for posting the latest decklist. I have a few questions regarding this.

@ Ancient Tomb
Why do you play only two Ancient Tomb? You have 4 Exalted Angels, that means, that you are risking having 2 in your opening hand. The question is, why only 2 Ancient Tomb along with 4 Exalted Angels?

@ Serum Visions
I know that you want to maximise the shuffling effects, the question is why?
To you want to put lands back on your library? I guess not, you have only 20. Do you want to avoid damage from the Confidant? I think so, but you have only 2 Confidants, meaning, that you are wasting 4 slots to make this "combo" smoother.
The question is, why do you want Serum Visions in the deck? Have you ever thought about Stifle in the deck? It would allow you to play the aggro-control mode, enabling you to stifle Fetchlands and the Goblin Lackey ability.

@ Dark Confidant
How is this guy working out for you? Ever lost due to the life loss?

@ Sword of Fire and Ice
You are currently playing with 3 Swords and 3 Jitte. Have you ever thought about adding one Steelshapers Gift and cutting one Sword?

@ Increase of threats
What happened with Serendib Efreet?
Have ever thought about adding Wasteland?
Have you ever thought about adding Winter Orb?

@ Draw engine
Currently you have only the Dark Confidant as a draw engine. What about adding Standstill?
I know it sounds crazy, but I am using it in a Zoo deck as a draw engine and it works perfectly.

Whenever I have a small advantage over the opponent, I simply play Standstill. If I have one creature and the opponent none, I play standstill, just that simple.
If you have a creature in play and an equipment, just play standstill, that’s it.
What do you think?

@Ancient Tomb - My guess is that with 2 tomb 2 Chrome, that should be plenty of acceleration. I'm only running 3 Tomb in my UW build and it works out fine.

@Serum Visions - This doesn't shuffle, so I'm not sure why you're talking about shuffling effects. What this does do, however, is nab you a land if you need one early, as well as dig for your big threat/equipment/ancient tomb so you can make the play you want second turn. The ability to dig 3 cards deep in your library is just amazing.

@Increase of Threats - I'm actually wondering what happened to serendib as well. Though I will say 18 threats is generally a reasonable number for this deck. Don't forget, generally Mother of Runes doesn't count as a threat for regular angel stompy.

As for the comments about wasteland/winter orb, I'm not sure why they're here, but I've tried wasteland and honestly, if anything, it's a better boarding card vs. gro than anything else. It's nearly worthless in the gobbo matchup unfortunately. Winter orb makes this into more of a control deck rather than an aggro one. Perhaps, once again, in the board for landstill, but I don't think it really holds a place here...

@Draw Engine - Umm, he's got dark confidant, sword of fire and ice, brainstorm, and serum visions, how much more of a draw engine did you want? Perhaps you don't count BS and SV, but they're amazing for getting cards you need reliably with this deck, so I include them.

@Standstill - My issue with the card is that in a lot of circumstances it's a win more card. If I've already got advantage, why do I need standstill to gain a bigger advantage? If I'm losing on the board, then standstill is just a dead card. Generally, my feeling is this deck plays a game of momentum. Once you've got it, you don't need standstill to maintain it. Once you lose it, you'd really like to have some way to get it back. Standstill isn't it.

[imran]

@ Ancient Tomb –
Running 2 Tomb and 2 Chrome is something completely different than running 3 Tomb.

@ Serum Visions – Draw engine
Only Dark Confidant is a real draw engine, you need a creature for Sword of Fire an Ice, and Brainstorm/Serum Visions only give you card quality, they don’t draw cards.

@ Standstill
In my opinion Standstill is not a win more card. I helps you to keep the momentum. If you StP your opponents only creature at the end of his turn, and then play Standstill while heaving a creature on the board, how is this a win more card? And that creature could be any creature.

@ Increase of Threats
I am not sure what type of creatures should be added. There should be either only creatures, that are worth to be equipped (First Strike, Double Strike, Evasion) or creatures, that are plain good (Meddling Mage, Serendib Efreet…). By the way, what happened with Serendib?

@ Steelshapers Gift
What do you think about including this nice litte gem?

[legacyplayer0]

The thing about steelshaper's gift is that it's a sorcery. Most of the time I like to play and equip my equipment in the same turn, and steelshapers gift makes that harder. If it's played on the same turn as the equipment, it costs me an extra mana, and if I play it the turn before, it ruins the surprise. I would also require me to run Sword of Light and Shadow in place of one of the SoFaI to make up for Steelshaper's Gift's weakness which is a much worse topdeck than SoFaI.
@acceleration-I have 2 each Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb, because after testing, this was the most I could have without screwing myself over too often, while still having a decent ammount of acceleration.
@Draw engine- The reasoning behind running Serum Visions is that the biggest reason that the deck loses matches is from drawing dead, which Serum Visions is very good at preventing. Bob also helps with this, becuase he draws cards, attacks for 2, and carries equipment at the same time.
Now for Standstill. The problem with Standstill is that to make it good, I would have to play Aether Vial, Mishra's Factory, and probably some more removal. Or I could put it in without it's partners in crime, but then I would have a blue, highly situational, unsynergistic win-more card where I could be playing something that fits the strategy better. Even if it's cast when I have one threat to my opponent's zero, if they're playing a control deck, I'll lose, becuase I would be giving them time to play lands and cycle stuff, and when they do cast something, it will probably be devestating, becuase I have no counterspells.
@Stifle, Wasteland- These were played as four of's before Big Arse 2. I tried the mana denial strategy, and it just wasn't as good as the alternatives. They could be used if I found room for them plus Vindicate, but that would make equipment worse, and slow down my damage clock, which could be correct in a control-heavy metagame, but that is not the case at the moment.
@Serendib Efreet- They used to be a two of, but were cut for Vendetta, which was cut for Serum Visions. If I put them back in, they would have to replace two Exalted Angels or 1 Exalted Angel and 1 SoFI. The second option is probably better, and the changes definitely deserve some testing. The only real problem would be having to stretch the mana base even further, which might cause a need for 1 or 2 City of Brass, but that issue could go either way.

[midnightAce]

@Standstill

While draw 3 for 1U is impressive, I believe that for this deck, it is both conditional and win more as previously stated by tivadar.

Condition one: You can't play this against control decks, storm combos, and Goblins with an active Vial out.

Condition two: To make it good, you would idealy need threats on the table. Thresh tend to run bigger ground forces. Without the help of your equips, you might be able to block Bears all day long with double first strike, but there is no way you can attack into it. A StP or bounce in response to your Standstill can completely wreck the board position math for you. Without manlands, there is no such option as waiting, you would be forced to break your own Standstill.

Condition three: It is simply unplayable if the board position is already bad for the 3cAS. Landstill can at least pitch the dead SS to FoW, there is no such option here, the Standstill would be completely dead.

[imran]

@ Steelshapers Gift
I would that’s not really true. Regarding the Gift, I was more thinking of a first turn play. In fact, you could avoid dead draws with 2 Jitte in you hand. What do you mean with Sword of Light and Shadow?

@ Lightning Greaves / Shikari / Other Equipments
Have you ever thought about adding the Lightning Greaves - Shikari Combo to this deck?
Have you ever thought about adding Equipments like the Loxodon Warhammer? Having it in play means, that you could go to the beatdown mode with only a Soltari Priest in play. Gaining life is like blocking without having creature losses on both sides !?
That means:
Me Soltari Priest equipped with the Warhammer (5 Life)
Op: 2 Savannah Lions (10 Life)
Guess who wins? Okay, you can win also with a Jitte or a SOFaI, damn forget that example.

@ Acceleration
It seems to me, that there is an unbalance.
You have 6 Equipments, but only 2 Ancient Tomb.
You have 4 Exalted Angels, but only 2 Ancient Tomb. In my opinion, if you are playing with either too much Equipments/Angels or 1 less Ancient Tomb than necessary

@ Serendib Efreet
It would strongly suggest to add the Efreet. He is just too good to be ignored. With 4 Toughness the opponent needs either 2 Burn Spells or one Swords. This guy is easily splashable and has evasion. I have to say, that the Efreet is one of the best 3 drops ever.

@ Dark confidant
How much damage do you take in the average from this guy? Have you ever lost due to taking too much damage from him? The only way to really avoid damage is Brainstorm, which you normally use to shuffle your lands away, not to them on your library to prevent damage, right?

[tivadar]

@Gift - The problem I've experieced with this as a first turn play is that unlike traditional angel stompy, this deck has a lot of other viable first turn plays (duress, brainstorm, serum visions making 10). Also, while eq thinning is good, you've already got 1 way to dig for them (brainstorm and serum visions), and thinning them can hurt as much as help if they get countered...

@Greaves, Shikari - I actually gave this combo a ride, and my experience was that it was too situational. In order for it to happen often enough, I'd really like to have more greaves in my deck, but greaves really aren't that good by themselves. Yeah, it's not bad, it's just not amazing either. Also, in goblins, greaves give you just about nothing unless you've got another piece of equip on the board, but then you'd be thinning your creatures...

@Loxdon Warhammer - Good, but too expensive. I've debated it, and the fact is I probably would run one if it was 3,2 to play,equip. At 3,3, the earliest you tend to get it equipped is 4th turn if very lucky. Whereas swords are a whole turn faster.

@Acceleration - He's got 4 accelerants with 6 ways to dig for them. Yes, chrome mox counts. It accelerates just as fast as does tomb (1 extra mana). I'm running 3 Tombs with nothing else in my current build and I find I get one regularly enough either in my openers or after casting a serum visions/brainstorm. You have to remember, with deck manipulation, this deck can afford to run a bit less of cards like this and then pull them out later.

@Serendib - Here I totally agree. I've even bumped this guy up to a 4-of.

[imran]

@ Serum Visions
It still seems to me as if there are too much 1 ofs. Yes you have 10 one ofs, 6 of them are manipulating the library, you just loose too much time in organising your next topdecks. Its like the people that are addicted to Sensei's Divining Top. Too much manipulation, not enough threats. The main thing is, that you need 1 Mana first turn to Duress/Brainstorm, 2 Mana to play your creature, 3-4 Mana to equip and attack. You simply don’t have the “space” for ten manipulation spells. I would understand the addition of 2 Mother of Runes or something else. First turn, you should have either Duress or Brainstorm , that’s more than enough manipulation.

@ Gift
I thought about:

-2 Serum Visions
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+1 Steelshaper’s Gift
+1 Lightning Greaves
+1 Serendib Efreet

Steelshaper’s Gift is a must counter. The question is, who counters Serum Visions?

@ tivadar
Could you please post your decklist? I have created a decklist with the cards that we are all agreeing about, still 6 open slots, is that right?

-- Land --
4 Scrubland
4 Tundra
4 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand

-- Acceleration --
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox

-- Blue Splash --
4 Brainstorm
4 Meddling Mage

-- Black Splash --
4 Duress

-- Board Control --
4 Swords to Plowshares

-- Creatures --
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
3 Exalted Angel

-- Equipment --
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

54 Cards

I think its much easier to discuss the possible open slots.
What do you think?

[tivadar]

I splash blue without black, the discusssion for that deck is here:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1125
Basically it runs similar except you don't get duress. The ideas for one deck tend to apply pretty directly to the other, which is why I tend to monitor this thread pretty closely (as well as regular AS).

As for steelshaper's, no one's gonna counter it. They're either gonna meddling the equip you fetch, or counter the equipment itself. I did have one person counter an SV from me once, though that's rare. But that's the beauty of SV ;), you can set up your next couple of cards and your opponent doesn't tend to do much about it.

[legacyplayer0]

@bob- The life loss isn't much of a problem, becuase Angel or Jitte usually follow shortly after.
@Steelshaper's gift and new equipment- Steelshaper's Gift is usually worse than the other turn one plays, and lets the opponent know that you have equipment and what it is. The other pieces of equipment that have been suggested are okay, but don't come close to matching the power level of SoFaI and Jitte.
@Serum Visions- It does what the deck needs. It isn't some other card, becuase it doesn't have to be. I was having problems with drawing dead, and Serum Visions was the best card for the job. Mother of Runes isn't in the deck, becuase it's bad in a lot of matchups. Serum Visions is universally good, and has a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck.

[tivadar]

Out of curiosity, have you tried perish out against gro? Is it needed here?

[legacyplayer0]

I have tried Perish and it has been very good to me, but that was at a time when playing against RGSA happened at least once per tournament. When RGSA disapeered from the metagame, and Gro gained popularity, I made the transition to Tormod's Crypt after trying a few combinations of Perish and graveyard removal, and decided that Tormod's Crypt was the way to go. Unfortunately, 2 Tormod's Crypts are not enough for the new Life From the Loam strategies. I've decided that adding more graveyard removal is vital to 3c Angel Stompy's ability to compete in the modern metagame. The decision to make is whether to play 4 Tormod's Crypt, 4 Leyline of the Void, some combination of Planar Void and Tormod's Crypt, or maybe some other card that I haven't thought of.

[Zilla]

What Loam decks are we talking about here? It's been my experience that most Loam decks aren't that much of a threat, although I admit this is from a mono-white perspective. You have Dredge Tog, which isn't particularly savage in the face of 4 StP, 4 Parallax Wave, 2 SoFI, in my experience. You have Land Ho and other Devastating Dreams variants which are predicated upon the notion that red dcreature removal is good, which it is not, etc. Again, though, this is from a mono-white perspective. Which Loam decks are giving you trouble specifically? And why is Phyrexian Furnace not on your potential Loam hate list? The ability to respond to Loam by removing targeted Lands seems rather good.

[legacyplayer0]

The graveyard hate is mostly for Gro, but also for Confinement and Dredgeatog decks. If I can dedicate four slots to graveyard hate, should it be Leyline of the Void or Phyrexian Furnace. Furnace can cantrip, but it can also be needled, meddling maged, and countered. The problem with Leyline, is that it sucks when I topdeck it, and it dies to Pernicious Deed and Naturalize. If any of you have a lot of experience playing with Leylines of any kind, your advice would be helpful.

[-BK-]

I play this deck for a while now and the graveyardhate i play in the sideboard is planar void. It can be cast easily on turn one and won't be countered except by force. It can't be needled and is as radical as leyline of the void by simply destroying all plans with the graveyard as long as its on the field.

[tivadar]

The graveyard hate is mostly for Gro, but also for Confinement and Dredgeatog decks. If I can dedicate four slots to graveyard hate, should it be Leyline of the Void or Phyrexian Furnace. Furnace can cantrip, but it can also be needled, meddling maged, and countered. The problem with Leyline, is that it sucks when I topdeck it, and it dies to Pernicious Deed and Naturalize. If any of you have a lot of experience playing with Leylines of any kind, your advice would be helpful.

I've actually had the same sorts of troubles. My version used to mainboard pithing as activated abilities were the big threat. This is slowly shifting to graveyard effects with loam, tog, and gro being larger than gobbo in most metas I see. The loam I play against is a RGB control style runing ghastly demise, devastating dreams. While I think overall our matchup is favorable against this type of deck, just the quantity of graveyard trix out there makes me want to run more hate. I think I've decided on 2x furnace, 2x crypt. Furnace I'm running mainboard in place of needles, crypt is in the board, as well as needles for the matchups where they're superior. Void would be supernice to have, and I'd probably suggest it in place of furnace for your deck.

Has stream of consciousness been considered? It's reactive rather than proactive I know, but it is instant speed...

[tivadar]

Is it just me or are we getting a bomb in AEthermage's Touch? Turn 2 Sofi, Turn 3 Aethermage's Touch to Exalted for surprise blocker, turn 4 swinging with equipped Angel? Is the card too slow to play? My feeling is that this may be a card worth considering for UWx versions of the deck.

[Alfred]

Is it just me or are we getting a bomb in AEthermage's Touch? Turn 2 Sofi, Turn 3 Aethermage's Touch to Exalted for surprise blocker, turn 4 swinging with equipped Angel? Is the card too slow to play? My feeling is that this may be a card worth considering for UWx versions of the deck.

The problem that I see with it is that it's probably too slow, especially seeing as though it won't stay in play the turn afterwards.

[noobslayer]

The problem is the deck, or at least Phil's list has all of 16 creatures. Even with Brainstorm and Serum, it seems rather conditional and over costed for a surprise.

[Eldariel]

It'd take a more beatdownish build. Actually, it might be worth really just building a deck around. WUx beatdown with big guys would be able to utilize it just fine, then just play a bit more manipulation and a few more big guys than normally.

[legacyplayer0]

My oppinion on Aethermage's Touch is that it is a terrible card to bulid a deck around, and is even worse in a deck that isn't built around it. When I tap four mana, it had better be for something awsome, not a crappy version of Waylay. Anyway, here's my list that I got 5th place with at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft last weekend.

4 Silver Knight
3 Exalted Angel
2 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Solitari Priest
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Serendib Efreet
2 Chrome Mox
2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Tundra
SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Mortify
2 Disenchant
3 Armageddon

The only change to the maindeck that I made for that tournament was -1 Angel and -1 SoFI, +2 Serendib Efreet. The Efreets were alright. They weren't as good as I hoped they would be, but they did their job well enough to stick around until I find something better. In the sideboard, the Pithing Needles and Skeletal Scryings were cut for 3 Mortify and 1 more Tormod's Crypt. My reasoning behind Mortify is that any card that kills Humility and Lightning Rift, and is still good enough to be boarded in against Threshold and slowish aggressive decks like Angel and Zilla Stompy definitely deserves a place. The Needles were cut, becuase they were mostly there for Goblins, which I expected to be decreasing in number, and they were good against Deadguy, which isn't a very common matchup, and is still about 50/50. Mortify also happens to come in against Deadguy. Skeletal Scrying got cut, becuase Mortify's main purpose is to be good against Rifter, and I didn't want to fill up the sideboard with too much sideboard for one deck. I expect In the Eye of Chaos to become part of sideboard in the near future as well, becuase of Solidarity's popularity at the Dual Draft, and becuase my two victories over the deck last weekend were very close, and my opponents took a lot of muligans.

[Lego]

The Needles were cut, becuase they were mostly there for Goblins

I've never gone the 3c route, so I may be off base here, but for me the Needles were essential. I brought them in for every single round of the Swiss. Literally every single time I boarded, Pithing Needle came in. This is obviously a bit of an anomaly due to my matchups, but that says a lot for keeping it in the board.

[legacyplayer0]

What exactly did you need the needles for? I had them in there almost exclusively for Aether Vial, becuase it is almost impossible for a goblin deck to beat 3c Angel Stompy without a ton of Aether Vial- spawned Ringleaders. It was also decent against Deadguy and Salvagers. All of these decks I have mentioned are favorable matchups except maybe Deadguy, which is about 50/50. What is it about Pithing Needle that you find so useful?

[Zilla]

His tournament report is right here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3412).

[f|i[p]]

Hi, i've been following the angel stompy thread for quite some time now, and I am a big fan of it. I just have a few questions.

Regarding mortify, wouldnt vindicate play a much better role in the deck, since it gives you more options and basically destroy any permanent? Although its a sorcery and not an instant.Just a suggestion.


Also, I was wondering how the serendib efreets went for you? Did'nt you ever wish that it was an exalted angel at times?

Would you be kind enough to post a tournament report? or is it already posted and I probably just hav'nt fount the thread yet..

Thanks
-Phil-

[Lego]

What is it about Pithing Needle that you find so useful?

ZillA linked my tournament report, but I'll give you the list anyway.

Round 1 it came in against Faerie Stompy because they play more equipment than I do, and also play Aether Vial. Game 2 it named both Vial and Jitte for the win.

Round 2 it came in for Goblin Welder and Survival of the Fittest, naming Survival for the win.

Round 3 it came in for Survival of the Fittest, and Needle on Survival stopped him from coming back in the mid game.

Round 4 I was playing Solidarity, and while Pithing Needle is not the best card to consider boarding in in this matchup, I was boarding out enough dead cards that the Needle could come in to name fetchlands. It named one game 2, but he didn't have any, so it was useless. Wouldn't have mattered though, he absolutely slaughtered me here. It's just nice to have relevant cards to bring in, since I'm losing so many cards maindeck in this match.

Round 5 was another Survival deck, so it came in mostly for that, although there were a couple of other targets for it.

Round 6 I faced Affinity, so it came in for Cranial Plating and Ravager. It named Ravager game 2, but I had double Paralax Wave and it wouldn't have mattered.

It's true that I faced every single Survival matchup in the tournament, but it's still interesting that I boarded them in every single game. Good enough for me :)

[tivadar]

']Also, I was wondering how the serendib efreets went for you? Did'nt you ever wish that it was an exalted angel at times?

I play 2c, but it's the same basic idea... As for serendib, yes, generally, I'd prefer it was an angel, but then again, against a lot of matchups I prefer just about any creature to be angel, and you can only run 4 of them... The thing that makes efreet so good is that you can play it 2nd turn generally without having to worry about bolt or a cycled gempalm, and then equip it third with a jit or mask and swing (4th if you have to wait for sofi). Exalted can either gain you life on that third turn, or be equipped and potentially not be a threat. It also is a lot more vulnerable face down.

I don't advocate removing exalteds to add serendib's, but I do think they have a place in the deck from my experience.

[Bane of the Living]

Ill second that. Serendib is a nice beater. He's quite comparable to angel in my eyes, especially thanks to his super cheap cost. Playing a 2/2 angel is so wastefull, she dies constantly.

[powergamer1003]

While, I agree with you guys about the fact that Serendib is a nice beater, I think that Sea Drake might be better. This is because, he hits harder, and though it bounces the lands back, it really does not matter. In my testing it seems that the Sea drake is superior. Also, the damage from Serendib can eventually catch up to you. There have been times agains goblins where it has actually cost me the game.

[tivadar]

The issue with sea drake is that you can't equip it after it comes into play because all of your land just went poof. This deck lives or dies by equipment in many games, so I'm hesitant to add something that slows the equipment (and threat) clock down.

One last thing, even if there was another card exactly like efreet except it was a 4/3 instead of a 3/4, I'd still run efreet over it, because efreet dodges lightning bolt, and can block geese/pumped factories without dying. The extra 1 power for when he goes unblocked is not worth the extra 1 toughness that make him resistant to burn mainly.

[Lego]

I think that in the matches were Sea Drake's extra size comes into play, you don't want to be slowing down your threats. Personally I think both are a bit of a crutch, but if I were to run either I think it'd be the efreet. I'd rather have the Serendib and mana to equip him with SoFI then just the Drake. This is even more true in the 3C version when you often don't have an Ancient Tomb, so the Drake is going to set you back a lot.

[powergamer1003]

I ran a new list of the deck actually. In my testing, I have found that one needs to keep the turbo angel stratgey in place. I added in again, two Chrome Moxes, two tombs, and another angel, cutting the serum visions and two of the plains as well as one soltari preist.

I think keeping the three colors while allowing the turbo angel stratgey is very effective. Few decks can deal with a turn one-turn two angel.

I agree with you though, sea drake was far less effective then I orignally thought. He seems to die off to easily especially goblins. Serendib's damage might get annoying, but things like Angels and Jittes should help you out.

[Shriekmaw]

I really don't understand why many people like the mono-white build of Angel Stompy with its weak game against combo/control decks. The 3 color version has a lot of answers to combo decks and maindeck Duress against control. I will agree that you won't get explosive turn 1 or turn 2 angels, but in a lot of matchups that too much of a gamble to do anyways.

I just recently added in 2 Serendib Efreets which seemed to be pretty good since they are hard to kill when they are in play. I won't trade my MD Duress or Meddling Mage for anything. They have won me so many games in the past when I've played this deck.

I recently added in 2 Engineered Explosives into the board b/c I hate having pithing needle shut down my equipment, especially against Gro.

[Zilla]

Mono-white Angel Stompy isn't about explosive first turns. It's about a consistently stronger game against all aggro. Mother of Runes and Parallax Wave should not be underestimated in the aggro matchup. If you suggest the 3 color version has as good a game against aggro and aggro-control, I contend that you haven't tested it or you weren't playing it properly.

It's true, however, that the 3 color version has better game against combo and blue-based control. In some metagames, this makes it the better choice, of course. In most modern Legacy metagames, however, aggro and aggro-control are still more prevalent by quite a lot than blue-based control or combo, hence the reason why people play the mono-white version more often.

[tivadar]

While I'll agree with you about MWAS's better matchup against aggro, I think there are some things that deserve mention.

First off, I honestly think that one reason a lot of people go with mono-white is that it's cheaper and easier to construct. No duals/fetches makes things a lot easier on the budget. Not saying this is everybody, as the deck definetly has merits over multicolor, just that a lot of people do.

Secondly, while MWAS does have an overall better game against aggro, multicolor-AS is more resilient to bad hand draws (and bad topdecking). I've actually drawn a hand with 5 lands, 2 non-land, kept it, and gone on to do well that game (one of the non-land was brainstorm, which was why I kept it). MWAS overall has a much better game against aggro, but if they get a bad draw, they can't recover like multicolor can (assuming that multicolor includes blue).

[tivadar]

Out of curiosity, I've been looking for a couple of grave sweepers on top of crypt to deal with gro. With Solidarity coming back into popularity a bit, I've also been looking for board answers to it. Obviously there are a lot of options, but has Thran Foundry been considered? It doubles for both the thresh and solidarity matchup. How well does it work in solidarity? Against thresh, it's nearly as good as crypt, except a bit more expensive. And generally you don't care about the cards being shuffled back in. Heck, you can even use it to disrupt their predict should they try to cast it with foundry on the board...

[emidln]

Out of curiosity, I've been looking for a couple of grave sweepers on top of crypt to deal with gro. With Solidarity coming back into popularity a bit, I've also been looking for board answers to it. Obviously there are a lot of options, but has Thran Foundry been considered? It doubles for both the thresh and solidarity matchup. How well does it work in solidarity? Against thresh, it's nearly as good as crypt, except a bit more expensive. And generally you don't care about the cards being shuffled back in. Heck, you can even use it to disrupt their predict should they try to cast it with foundry on the board...

Why would you run Thran Foundry over Feldon's Cane? I mean you could theoretically use it against something like Iggy Pop if they are comboing off, but against Solidarity, wouldn't you be hitting yourself, and thus wouldn't the cane by cheaper? The only time it seems that it would help against Solidarity is in response to a big flash of insight (without flashback) to prevent their Flashback. Otherwise, you'd try to respond to a draw spell with it and they'd treat your Foundry activation just like a Blessing trigger.

[tivadar]

Why would you run Thran Foundry over Feldon's Cane? I mean you could theoretically use it against something like Iggy Pop if they are comboing off, but against Solidarity, wouldn't you be hitting yourself, and thus wouldn't the cane by cheaper? The only time it seems that it would help against Solidarity is in response to a big flash of insight (without flashback) to prevent their Flashback. Otherwise, you'd try to respond to a draw spell with it and they'd treat your Foundry activation just like a Blessing trigger.

The point is it doubles for the gro matchup, targetting them, and the solidarity matchup, targetting yourself. As it is, my sideboard is packed, and I'd love to have room for 2 or 3 more cards. By working against both gro and solidarity, this is one way to save space in your board. As I said, trying to gauge how effective it'd be (just started testing), was wondering what others thought of it. As for when you'd use it, I'd assume you'd pop it after they combod out, and depending on how big their combo was, use it while you still had 6 or 7 cards left in your library so they didn't immediately force you to draw. You're probably right about one thing, if they can go off big, this won't help you. If they can't though, it can be useful.

[Shriekmaw]

I don't really see the use of Thran Foundry or Feldon's Cane in the sideboard whats so ever. My sideboard is all ready full without messing around with cards you really don't need in the sideboard in order to win.

By Playing three color angel stompy you already have duress and meddling mage in your main deck. The only card I might consider sideboarding is In The Eye of Chaos. I believe thats a card that can I more uses against a lot of different decks in the format.

My current SB looks like this:

4 Engineered Plague
2 In The Eye of Chaos
2 Disenchant
2 Tomord’s Crypt
3 Armageddon
2 Engineered Explosives

I believe this is a very solid sideboard in the current legacy metagame. Let me know what you think.

[bigredmeanie]

Chalice is great against both Gro and Solidarity. and if you run any 2 mana lands, or Mox, you can play it for 1 on turn 1, which means you'll prolly win the game. hopefully.

[Shriekmaw]

I would rather run In The Eye of Chasos rather than Chalice, just because it has so many different applications outside of Gro and Solidarity.

I'm pretty comfortable with main deck Duress and Meddling Mage for control matchups and don't believe chalice of the void is worth considering for the sideboard.

Also, I believe chalice weakens your deck by playing it as you play 1, 2, 3 mana casting cost spells.

[tivadar]

I've been running serendib and have been very happy with him. The matchup where he shines the most is the Gro matchup. Here, you can actually race them and they can't keep all your threats off the board. With only Exalted, they can target just those and keep your ground troops under control with a single goose or bear. With serendib and exalted, they're hard pressed to deal with all your threats. Small creatures just don't work against gro...

Just to note, this is with the 2c and not 3c version. I'm running 2 Ancient Tomb, 2 City of Traitors for acceleration.

[BoardinCharlie]

I have been messing around with the deck for a while now since I know that Angel is a very powerful card in Legacy. Also with the popularity of grow it seems that since they only have four swords they need to play them sparingly. Regenerators cause problems for them along with Pro green guys. So after that I tried making it a bit more competitive

The deck list goes as is:

Creatures:
4x Mother of Runes (protection for angel, stalls as blocker)
4x Silver Knight (great against gobbos, trolls ascetic, etc)
4x Exalted (Just wins games sometimes)
4x Meddling Mage (helps match up against combo, can stop swords when boarded out for perishes)
3x Spectral Lynx (Pro green is nice, and survives a gobbo block)
3x Soltari Priest (Makes sure equip goes through, pro red)

Control
4x Vindicate (Stops annoying artifacts/enchantments, serves as more spot removal
3x Duress (not powerful enough to run 4 with grow and gobbos being prevalent, but still powerful)
3x Swords (Not needed as four of since mutiple one drops)

Equip-
3x Sword of Fire/Ice (seems to be right number)
2x Jitte (seems to be right number)

Mana-
4x Scrubland
3x Tundra
3x Ancient Tomb
3x Flooded Strand
3x Chrome Mox
2x Windswept Heath
5x Plains

SB- 3x E Plague
3x Perish
3x Pithing Needle
3x Rule of Law
3x Energy Flux

Not sure if Wastelands are necessary, card numbers need to be tweaked. Help out if you can.

[noobslayer]

Just so you know, one of the biggest reasons Phil runs blue is because of cantrips like brainstorm and serum visions. This deck hates losing to it's bad daws, and that has been a boon thus far to fixing it.

[-BK-]

I have done some testing with this deck and I simply want to know if my version is considered to be good by you.

2 Ancient tomb
4 Tundra
4 Scrubland
3 Flooded strand
3 Windswept heath
3 Chrome mox
3 Plains

4 Meddling mage
4 Dark confidant
4 Silver knight
4 Soltari priest
3 Exalted angel

3 Umezawas jitte
2 Swords of fire and ice

4 duress
2 Parallax Wave
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares

The only difference between this and the standart build is, that i play 4 confidant and 2 parallax wave in main.
4 Confidant is a bit risky, but actually, there are 5 cards in the deck you don't want to reveal with him.
The 3 angels, but either they swing and give you the life back or they die.
If an angel dies it was 80 % of the time to Swords to plowshares and then he gave me also some life.
Then the life will most of the time only be relevan against aggro decks.
And in these matchups the parallax wave shines.
The rest of the deck is ok to reveal and doesn't cost big amounts of life.
Another reason is: The confidant will most of the time be killed by you opponent, because he simply can't let you get card advantage. So it simply has pulled some removal.

My SB is :
2 Parallax Wave(for aggro and combo with stifle)
3 Stifle(usefull alone and combo with parallax wave)deeds, disks, decrees...
3 Perish(In my meta is much ********, zoo and rock, so better than GYremoval
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing needle
3 Engineered Plague

[BoardinCharlie]

I know that there are only a few cards you REALLY don't want to hit with confidant. In my testing I tried out the confidant. The fact is by adding the other colors you are taking away from your aggro role a bit more and moving to control... duress and such. I just don't think you can handle the life loss of those large cards, its just a anti-synergy the deck can't afford.

[tivadar]

Just to have it be said, I really hate Chrome Mox. I just am not sure it holds a place in anything but combo decks. The fact is that the card disadvantage is huge, and if they're running removal, can lead to dead hands. The 2c version I'm running goes without it (it can support City of Traitors), and whenever I've tried it I just haven't been happy with the results. Perhaps it's a bit better in this deck where confidant can give you your card back next turn, but w/ 1 toughness, you still have to deal with fanatic/darkblast on him, ntm regular burn and swords.

I just don't think 3 mox is the way to go, Tomb is just SO much more useful, assuming your lifecount isn't too low. It also accels serendib and angel better (you don't need 2 additional lands with it, just 1). In BK's build, with 17 lands, 3 mox, you're going to have numerous hands you need to mull on or miss a land drop because of mox. Charlie's version at least has 20 lands + 3 mox, which should be sufficient to support it. The issue with mox is you need both additional lands and non-lands to make it work. Mox w/o a land drop on first or second turn is just terrible.

I also prefer serendib over priest. He survives most burn, flys rather than shadows (just about as good in the meta), and though he costs 1 more, he costs 1 less colored mana. He's just more scary... With the mox configuration you have, however, priest may be better. As for parallax wave, I just think you have too much control at some point, and not enough oomph. I'd rather have a creature...

[BoardinCharlie]

I agree with Tividar for the most part on his decisions. You can go with or without Mox, but I would say that you need 20 other sources. The only reason original Angel Stompy got away with it was because of tithe if I'm not mistaken and it only being mono white.

Paralax Wave takes away from your threats which the deck is already pretty threat light due to Duress.

I agree after testing placing Serendib Efreet in this deck is a good choice since it can block and survive most of the time... or atleast get a 2 for 1.

Meddling mage seems like its going to be pushed to the sideboard until gobbos calms down or combo becomes more prevalent.

[legacyplayer0]

@Tivadar: Chrome Mox's inclusion as opposed to more Ancient Tombs is that there simply aren't enough useful things to do with two generic mana at the cost of two life, having 2 Tombs in play is very close to useless. It's also very easy to get rid of excess Tombs and Moxes using cantrips when there are two of each. However, the value of Ancient Tomb vs. Chrome Mox rises greatly when there are no Bobs and more Efreets, like in your 2-color version, so for you, cutting Mox was probably the right call. About Serendib Efreet vs. Soltari Priest, I don't think that I could possibly include more Efreets without really messing things up. One of the main reasons is that in its current state, REB is terrible against 3c Angel Stompy. With a full set of Efreets, this changes. Adding more Efreets would also stress the mana base, becuase of its blue requirement, mess up the mana curve, and make Dark Confidant and Chrome Mox that much worse. Serendib Efreet is also behind the fourth Exalted Angel on the cards to include list. I would agree with you that Soltari Priest is one of the weaker cards, but I don't think any of them should be cut.

@BK: In a metagame with few Goblin decks, your list seems pretty good. The sideboard seems a bit questionable, though, namely the Stifles and the Needles. The problem with Stifle, is that without P-Wave it's bad, and with P-Wave it's still bad, becuase Stifle without a Wave in play is bad against amost every deck that Paralax Wave is good against. Needle is also sub-par, becuase there isn't a real need for it to be there. I think Mortify is a better choice than Stifle and Needle, because it's much more generally useful, and it leaves two open spots in the sideboard.

[tivadar]

Combo seems to be creeping back a bit. Solidarity is gaining favor again and nausea/iggy seem to be doing a bit better than before. MM may not be the best card against many decks, but it also is not dead in any matchups. I've considered boarding it, but then I try to think of what I'd replace it with... The options are limited. Even in the gobbo matchup, I've had times when an MM naming ringleader stalled them for a turn or two, which gave me time to equip it, or get more threats on the table.

My hardest matchup is currently gobbo. The guy in my area is running gobbo without vial, and it's just plain nasty even to this deck. While it can't race combo, it has a lot more consistency and pithing needle doesn't hurt it nearly as much. They also have anarchy, which makes me rather sad :-/. How about a honking artifact creature to fill out the deck? While I don't think we have to go the way of 5/3 and move to big brown stompy, there are a few artifact creatures I have my eye on, juggernaut not being the least of them.

[Tacosnape]

My current SB looks like this:

4 Engineered Plague
2 In The Eye of Chaos
2 Disenchant
2 Tomord’s Crypt
3 Armageddon
2 Engineered Explosives


Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just Rule of Law over In The Eye? I've been playing Solidarity for awhile and I don't find it all that hard to go off through In The Eye Of Chaos. The only thing the spell really does is force you to go off with a High Tide as though you didn't have one, plus the one mana you'll spend to resolve your first High Tide.

Rule of Law is cheaper to bounce, granted, but High Tide -has- to bounce it, or they can't win. Not only that, Rule of Law stops a lot more combo decks than In The Eye does.

Is there another deck that In The Eye grabs you an auto-win against? Or am I just missing something here?

[MasterBlaster]

How about a honking artifact creature to fill out the deck? While I don't think we have to go the way of 5/3 and move to big brown stompy, there are a few artifact creatures I have my eye on, juggernaut not being the least of them.
You could try Razor Golem. Late game you can drop it for free and it's Vigilance makes it really superb with a Jitte.

[-BK-]

Ok.
I guess my sideboard is really faar from being optimal. I think the stifles and waves are mainly in it because you can do cool play with it.
But otherwise my meta consists of much aggro, but not many of the aggrodecks are goblindecks. There is much Zoo, Boros deck wins, Angelstompy(in all variations) and some gobbos.
So the wave/stifle combo is in the board because i don't only need answers to gobbo, rather answers to all kinds of aggro decks where plague is a bad option to sideboard. Anyone has a good sideboardcard against randomaggro?
Generally I think, that mortify is a good idea for the sideboard, but I have some doubts if it's really superior to disenchant because it can't destroy jitte, needle, vial, scepter...
And I would like to know if Serendib efreet is considered to be worth maindeck slots.

[Nightmare]

Ok.
I guess my sideboard is really faar from being optimal. I think the stifles and waves are mainly in it because you can do cool play with it.
But otherwise my meta consists of much aggro, but not many of the aggrodecks are goblindecks. There is much Zoo, Boros deck wins, Angelstompy(in all variations) and some gobbos.
Generally I think, that mortify is a good idea for the sideboard, but I have some doubts if it's really superior to disenchant because it can't destroy jitte, needle, vial, scepter...
And I would like to know if Serendib efreet is considered to be worth maindeck slots.In that meta, why not just play Solidarity or IGG and win?

[Shriekmaw]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just Rule of Law over In The Eye? I've been playing Solidarity for awhile and I don't find it all that hard to go off through In The Eye Of Chaos. The only thing the spell really does is force you to go off with a High Tide as though you didn't have one, plus the one mana you'll spend to resolve your first High Tide.

Rule of Law is cheaper to bounce, granted, but High Tide -has- to bounce it, or they can't win. Not only that, Rule of Law stops a lot more combo decks than In The Eye does.

Is there another deck that In The Eye grabs you an auto-win against? Or am I just missing something here?


I really don't get how you don't understand In the Eye of Chaos. Solidarity would have to bounce the card in order to go off since it counters all spells unless its controller plays x which is the casting cost of the spell. How would Solidarity go off if In The Eye of Chaos is in play and you don't bounce it?

It helps in a lot of matchups, mainly control matchups. and now if people get smart we will see spell snare in a lot of control decks. I think angel stompy is the best aggro deck in the format, so only combo and control are really a concern for the deck.

This is the main reason why I like 3 color angel stompy the best, it deals with both control and combo pretty well.

[BoardinCharlie]

So I have taken a lot of the advice that has been posted for this deck. I play tested last night against U/G/W Grow, Goblins, and Rifter. I have to say that this deck displayed favorable matchups against all of the following. This is the deck list I decided to go with:

4x Mother of Runes (Protection for creatures, one drop)
4x Silver Knight (First strike is huge against aggro, pro red helps :p)
4x Exalted Angel (Just wins games)
4x Meddling Mage (Solid against other aggro control, control, combo)
3x Serendib Efreet (Not 4, multiples start to hurt against gobbos)
3x Soltari Priest (Another two drop needed with evasion for equipment)

3x Duress (Deck has troubles getting black on turn one always, so only 3)
3x Swords to Plowshares (Only 3 since also have wave and vindicate)
3x Parallax Wave (Solid against aggro, saves against anarchy)
2x Vindicate (stop troublesome enchantments, another spot removal)

3x Jitte (its just better than SOFI I feel, and costs less)
2x Sword of Fire/Ice (Makes all your creatures more of a threat)

4x Ancient Tomb (Need 4, acceleration is so nice in this deck)
4x Tundra
4x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
4x Plains

I have had a lot less mana problems, and I finally found out that Chrome Mox just doesn't belong in this deck. Its nice to push things a long but it just doesn't do enough to overweigh the card loss. I would like to find a better two drop than soltari priest...I would like to be able to block if necessary, and spectral lynx regen really only allows it to come out turn 3.

[tivadar]

In 2-color, I've been running weatherseed faeries. Also, I've been running 2x Ancient Tomb, 2x City of traitors over 4x Ancient Tomb. Losing the extra land typically doesn't hurt so long as you can use it twice. Weatherseed I put in because I wanted more gobbo blockers and blue means that I can actually run FOW (which doesn't matter so much to you). Thermal glider is obviously another option. Also, where's bob? In the black I'd def run dark confidant over priest. It only really hurts if you hit an exalted. Are 4x mothers really necessary? I've been doing 2.

[Myrrodin]

I really don't get how you don't understand In the Eye of Chaos. Solidarity would have to bounce the card in order to go off since it counters all spells unless its controller plays x which is the casting cost of the spell. How would Solidarity go off if In The Eye of Chaos is in play and you don't bounce it?

What he said was that it just makes him play as though he didn't have a High Tide. He has to pay 2 for the 1st high tide, and then it plays out as though he didn't play one (I.E. to play Reset w/o casting High Tide you tap 2 lands, to play reset with a resolved High Tide and In the Eye of Chaos out, you still tap 2 lands). It basically says, tap target land, counter target card named High Tide. They can also try to bounce it, or they just continue going off until they hit another High Tide, in which case you're in trouble. Hope that cleared it up.

[tivadar]

So I've been debating adding in 2x Engineered Explosives even to my 2c version. The reason for this is that the slot was initially pithing needle, which was primarily there to deal with gobbo vials game 1. Disenchant would have done the same trick, except both of these are notably bad against threshold, doing practically nothing. I switched this to more creatures at one point, but was never happy with what it did to my gobbo matchup, which went from really really positive pre-board, to only slightly above 50/50 (yes, pithing does affect the game that much). I think EE might be the happy medium, set at 1, it deals with lackeys, fanatics, vials, pithings and geese while only hitting 2 of my cards at the most (2x mothers). It's also possible to set it at 2 for me to get rid of piledriver. Typically this is the plan if I think the opponent may have an anarchy, after which popping it really doesn't hurt. This can also work if grow has taken out my creatures and has bears in play. Finally, it can be popped for 0 (I run no chromes, so this doesn't touch me at all unless I have a morph) to get rid of opposing chromes or goblin counters. Too bad it doesn't take out factories... This build would also have the 3 option, which would nail matrons and warchiefs. Just wondering what's thought of the card and if you guys think it'd do any good.

[quicksilver]

I was wondering what was the list you ran at the dual land draft legacyplayer0? I saw some new cards in there.

[legacyplayer0]

Serendib Efreet was cut for Spectral Lynx, which didn't seem to change much. The sideboard was also updated.
3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Armageddon
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi

I'm thinking about cutting the Engineered Plagues, becuase Goblins are decreasing in popularity, and I can still stomp the shit out of them without it. They'll probably be replaced by some combination of Jotun Grunt and In the Eye of Chaos. Perish would be cool too. I only lost to white Gro and Burning Tog, so it's not like i need to completely redo the sideboard, but I still think that replacing Plague would be good.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Phil. If you want your deck to be good, I suggest taking all Solidarity hate out of your sideboard, as it is clearly the worst deck in the format. I suggest putting in 4x Goblin War Wagon in the board and splash Red with 1x Taiga in the board. I also suggest cutting Duress and Meddling Mage, as they are utterly useless to you. Try runing 4x Little Girl in place of Meddling Mage and run 4x One With Nothing in place of Duress. They literally do the same thing!!!

Good luck,
(Under the Influence of Zach Fine)

[dre4m]

Phil. If you want your deck to be good, I suggest taking all Solidarity hate out of your sideboard, as it is clearly the worst deck in the format. I suggest putting in 4x Goblin War Wagon in the board and splash Red with 1x Taiga in the board. I also suggest cutting Duress and Meddling Mage, as they are utterly useless to you. Try runing 4x Little Girl in place of Meddling Mage and run 4x One With Nothing in place of Duress. They literally do the same thing!!!

Good luck,
(Under the Influence of Zach Fine)

Who are you, how do you know my name, and why are you suggesting silver borders to me?

Incidentally, I would rather play Hint of Insanity and Sorrow's Path.

[noobslayer]

In the Eye may be good, but I'm not the biggest fan of the Grunt. Unless it was Anaba Grunt. That would be a whole different story.

[dre4m]

In the Eye may be good, but I'm not the biggest fan of the Grunt.
After I stopped laughing on the floor of my office about how this sounds out of context, I realised that Grunt may be useful in monowhite angel stompy as an answer to Threshold (bigger than Mongoose with thresh, gets rid of the thresh in un-Needleable fashing) but three colour AS has better ways to beat threshold that don't involve Cumulative Upkeep, because you have a lot more "must counter" spells in your deck. Just remember to play around Daze.


Unless it was Anaba Grunt. That would be a whole different story.

Quoted for epic amounts of truthiness.

[legacyplayer0]

[QUOTE=dre4ms]After I stopped laughing on the floor of my office about how this sounds out of context, I realised that Grunt may be useful in monowhite angel stompy as an answer to Threshold (bigger than Mongoose with thresh, gets rid of the thresh in un-Needleable fashing) but three colour AS has better ways to beat threshold that don't involve Cumulative Upkeep, because you have a lot more "must counter" spells in your deck. Just remember to play around Daze.QUOTE]

Three color AS has better ways to beat threshold? Cool! What are they?

[tivadar]

The only way I've found to beat thresh is to play bigger threats than them, preferrably evasive ones. The worst cards against them are lions, hounds, and silvers. Once they tie up the ground with a goose, you're screwed.

I've yet to find something in white or blue that knocks threshold on its ass. By the looks of things, black isn't helping a whole lot. Perish is nice, but their counters are nicer. Ideally, something with storm or cycle-effect would be best. By the way, grunt is only mediocre. They tend to let it die then build their graveyard back up in a turn or two. Crypt is still more effective for me...

[quicksilver]

The only way I've found to beat thresh is to play bigger threats than them, preferrably evasive ones. The worst cards against them are lions, hounds, and silvers. Once they tie up the ground with a goose, you're screwed.

I've yet to find something in white or blue that knocks threshold on its ass. By the looks of things, black isn't helping a whole lot. Perish is nice, but their counters are nicer. Ideally, something with storm or cycle-effect would be best. By the way, grunt is only mediocre. They tend to let it die then build their graveyard back up in a turn or two. Crypt is still more effective for me...

You could try wingshards parhaps if you are looking for a storm way to get rid of the geese.

[Shriekmaw]

Serendib Efreet was cut for Spectral Lynx, which didn't seem to change much. The sideboard was also updated.
3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Armageddon
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi



Even though I didn't run 3 color angel stompy at the latest Dual Land Draft, I do still like the deck very much. I find Serendib Efreet very helpful in the deck as I'm including as a 2 of.

My current Board:

4 Plague
3 Armageddon
3 Perish
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disenchant

I was running 2 engineered esplosives in the board mainly for the threshold matchup as it would take care of mongoose and needle on your equipment.

I really like Perish, just because of all the threshold I would see around here in syracuse. Since Goblins has kind of went away, I'm inclining to cut plague, but not daring enough to do so as of yet.

I'm not sure if this is the best board, but it has worked pretty well for me so far. I do like explosives in the board which may make its way back in.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

[tivadar]

I've actually thought of shards, but the fact is that typically thresh can sit there with only one creature attacking at a time. While shards will hit an attacking goose, it's doubtful it'll go 2-1 if they know you're playing it. Of course, it does double in the gobbo matchup, which is a plus. I tried EE in the spot as well, but it's just not doing enough. Control is by far the hardest matchup for this deck, though we seem to have aggro and combo down pretty well...

DOJ would be nice if it didn't cost an arm and a leg to cast. At least it gives you multiple creatures along with a card back. Too bad we didn't get swordsing-spree for white, but alas, I think that would be a bit overpowered :-P.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Would Mana Maze against Solidarity/Iggy Pop be completely crazy?

[dre4m]

Would Mana Maze against Solidarity/Iggy Pop be completely crazy?
Yes. EOT bounce FTW

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's rather glib reasoning, given your other disruption, a clock, and the fact that Maze only costs 2 to begin with.

[Zilla]

Would Mana Maze against Solidarity/Iggy Pop be completely crazy?
Not really, no. It's probably slightly better than Rule of Law, and it has its uses against random jank like Burn as well.

As for EOT bounce, that's true of every anti-Solidarity SB option, from Rule of Law to Arcane Lab to Glowrider to Meddling Mage to True Believer and everything else in between. It doesn't matter that it can be removed if you can kill them before they can do it.

[dre4m]

Not really, no. It's probably slightly better than Rule of Law, and it has its uses against random jank like Burn as well.

As for EOT bounce, that's true of every anti-Solidarity SB option, from Rule of Law to Arcane Lab to Glowrider to Meddling Mage to True Believer and everything else in between. It doesn't matter that it can be removed if you can kill them before they can do it.

But Meddling Mage, Glowrider, and True Believer don't prevent you from playing spells, which is likely given that this deck is still predominatly white. After laying this on turn 2, you'll probably want to produce threats as quickly as possible before they bounce it and combo out. I personally use Glowrider over Lab/RoL for exactly this reason.

[Zilla]

But Meddling Mage, Glowrider, and True Believer don't prevent you from playing spells, which is likely given that this deck is still predominatly white.
That's not actually true. The way the deck's manacurve works, even the mono-white version rarely plays more than 1 white spell per turn. Taking cards like Parallax Wave and Swords to Plowshares out of the mix, and adding in blue and black cards, I think you'd very rarely find the drawback to be relevant.


I personally use Glowrider over Lab/RoL for exactly this reason.
I'd actually be surprised if Mana Maze slows you down more than Glowrider does in the 3c version, because it has more non-creature spells than the mono-white version. As for Rule of Law and Arcane Lab, that effect is symmetrical as well. Mana Maze might prevent you from playing more than one spell in a turn. Lab and Rule definitely will.

[legacyplayer0]

Mana Maze seems powerful, but becuase of space issues, I like my solidarity hate to generally have some other use too, preferably as sideboard against control ex:Armageddon and Shinobi. However I do have two slots which could be used straight-up solidarity hate, so it could be used there. The question then is whether it's better than In the Eye of Chaos.

[tivadar]

Hmm, how good would maze be against counter-based decks. All your blue creatures are effectively uncounterable. Just thinking for answers to grow. Cast an uncounterable sernedib, or if they already BS'ed to prevent that, cast an exalted then cast brainstorm with priority... Forces them to choose their instants during your untap phase.

EDIT: I feel I need to throw meddling mage into the mention here. Yummy.

[legacyplayer0]

Hmm, how good would maze be against counter-based decks. All your blue creatures are effectively uncounterable. Just thinking for answers to grow. Cast an uncounterable sernedib, or if they already BS'ed to prevent that, cast an exalted then cast brainstorm with priority... Forces them to choose their instants during your untap phase.

Interesting point. Mana Maze is definately going to need some testing. Serendib might also get back into the deck for that. Props to Jack for the suggestion.

[noobslayer]

To me it almost seems as mean as Chains of Mephistopheles. Whenever I was playing Solidarity and couldn't find an answer to it, Chains just shut me right out.

[tivadar]

Would it be out of place to suggest 3-sphere for the board? We hate solidarity, we hate grow. This hits both of them rather hard. It also could come in with burn, which is slightly tougher with this deck because of all the fetches and tombs.

[GoTreK]

Could anyone keep my up-to-date (preferably legacyplayer) witht the current lists being played? I'd really appreciate that...

I was wondering what was the list you ran at the dual land draft legacyplayer0? I saw some new cards in there.

#2

[legacyplayer0]

The current list is as follows. Suggestions are appreciated.

4 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Duress
2 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Knight
3 Exalted Angel
4 Soltari Priest
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serendib Efreet/Spectral Lynx

Sideboard:
3 Armageddon
X Needle
X Disenchant
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Okiba-gang Shinobi
X In the Eye of Chaos
X Blue Elemental Blast

[AnwarA101]

@legacyplayer0 - I really find this deck interesting, but I have few questions. Have you ever considered not running Exalted Angel? It seems that Angel is the only reason you really have to run Ancient Tomb and perhaps the equipment cards. I'm just not sure Angel is all that great mainly because it costs so much. Dark Confidant seems like he is really good here. Even if Goblin players end up killing him you still have the pro-red guys to go to town on them. I was thinking something along the lines of these changes

-3 Exalted Angel
-2 Serendib/Lynx (this spot seems most debatable)

+2 Confidant
+3 Rotting Giant

Now I'm not sure how often you fill your yard, but with 6 fetchs and cantrips like Brainstorm and Serums Visions, you get a 3/3 body which is good against both Goblins and Threshold (he trades with Mongoose). By lowering the curve of the deck by taking out Angel you make Confidant less likely to deal significant amounts of damage to you. Your control matchup should improve with more draw as well as combo because Giant can come online pretty quickly against combo. Take my suggestions with some skepticism as I have never really played the deck, but admired it from a far.

[GoTreK]

I think your list is pretty close to "optimal". At any rate from my point of view, since I run the same list and it's smooth & coherent (if this word fits in this case). Chome Mox shouldn't be played more than twice in the 3c build, more tombs wouldn't to the manabase any good as regards constancy so I'm completely on your side when it comes do the "debatable decisions".

I'd suggest that you try Confi as a 4 of - just for testing because he might prove really strong, even as a 4 of. With Confis your Angel is likely to be online earlier as well as Jitte. Furthermore Confi is pretty often the first target for removal, so running him more than twice shouldn't hurt. I'm really interested in other opinions on this issue. I'd probably cut Serum Visions for him.
If you decide to run more than two Confis Spectral Lynx is the better choice for the slot you weren't sure about imho, at least a "safer" one xD

@Anwar
No Angels at all would mean playing a completely different deck I'm afraid. Of course this isn't bound to be something bad.
I too vote for Rotting Giant then - his Drawback isn't a problem really, as you said. But you don't want to play tombs then, do you? Then Jitte and SoIaF are a good deal slower and I don't know if that's worth it...

[dre4m]

@legacyplayer0 - I really find this deck interesting, but I have few questions. Have you ever considered not running Exalted Angel?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand I quote:



Originally Posted by danyul
That is absolutely absurd. Have you ever played Angel Stompy? Do you know what creatures do when they go sideways? Do the words "8 point differential" mean anything to you? Saying that Jitte should outright replace Exalted Angel is downright foolish, borders on asinine, stinks of churlishness, and sounds completely half-baked. Not to mention that it's a fucking dumb idea. If you made a case for swapping out SoFI then maybe you would have an argument. If you made a case for simply adding the Jitte to Angel Stompy's list of equipment, then maybe you would have an argument. If you even said "Jitte = teh awesome" then maybe you would have some raggedy semblance of an argument. However, you have not made any of those arguments. You have simply stated something so outlandish, so horrendously bizarre, unorthodox, whimsical and dare I say KINKY that I have no choice other than to hate you for all eternity.

Exalted Angel is the heart of Angel Stompy. Hence the name, Angel Stompy. Play the deck. Learn the truth. Nuff said.


The same goes for Rotting Giant/Bob/Whatever you want to replace angel with. No Tombs also makes playing/equipping the colourless stuff a lot slower, and keeps you from playing the turn one Glowrider.

[Ewokslayer]

An of course because Danyul said it over a year ago about mono white angel stompy it must be true to this day about a completely different deck.
3cc Angel Stompy does not play the same as mono-white angel stompy, to assume they are the same deck is a mistake.
HINT: A big clue as to them being separate decks are the separate threads to discuss them.

...and keeps you from playing the turn one Glowrider.
Actually, statistics keep you from playing a turn one Glowrider.
That, and its absence from the board or main of the deck Anwar was discussing.

[dre4m]

I'm aware that they are different decks, but the quote was serving the same general purpose. What is this deck without Angel? Three-colour aggro-aggro control. Plus, I like the quote, because I dare not say, 'kinky,' but I do dare say that three-colour aggro control is worse than 3cAS.

[Ewokslayer]

... but I do dare say that three-colour aggro control is worse than 3cAS.

I agree but is that because of angel?
Could it be more the result of the card manipulation, efficient beaters, and draw plus equipment?
Would making bob more effective improve the deck?
What matchups does Angel improve that aren't already favorable?
As for the deck space, would Jotun Grunt be good here?
It is bigger than Rotting Giant, cheaper than Angel,

[quicksilver]

Exalted Angel is a very powerful card. Many games I have seen 3Color AS play it has won soley off the power of exalted angel.

[tivadar]

Exalted's power is deceiving I think. Sure, it wins some games by swinging, but it also wins some games by drawing removal. Gro, which is one of this deck's worst matchups imho, really hates angel. They'll rarely let it hit the board. They let other creatures fall (serendib, silver knight, mother, even lynx) but keep exalted away. Just because it doesn't actually hit play and win the game doesn't mean it wasn't an important piece by drawing out the counter/swords. Also, I've seen people use mass removal on a single angel. No other creature in the deck prompts a response like that. Personally, I think if anything's going to be dropped at this point, the candidates would be silver/priest, as they seem to be a bit weaker in the modern meta.

[GoTreK]

Ok, I think the proposal of replacing Angel was dismissed...

I just got the Idea that we could rather focus on B (WBu AS) with the following list. I don't remember if anyone already suggested Sensei's Diving Top + 4 Confis for this deck...
Here we go -->

// Lands
4 [A] Tundra
4 [B] Scrubland
3 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [TE] Soltari Priest
3 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [US] Duress
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

I mainly replaced Brainstorm with Top and Serum Visions with 2 more Confis. The 4th Exalted won't hurt with Top. Spectral Lynx is a decent choice against Gro and is also very good in some other MUs like Gobbo or just random aggro.

Could be total bullshit but please tell me what you think...

[MasterBlaster]

Also, I've seen people use mass removal on a single angel. No other creature in the deck prompts a response like that.

Any random creature with SOFI on it is just as scary and equally Wrath-worthy as an Exalted Angel.

Also I'm not familiar with the 3 color flavor of Angel Stompy but would Gerrard's Verdict be a good inclusion in this deck? It would never be a dead card in any matchup, unlike Duress which sometimes grabs nothing.

[dre4m]

4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

Nonbo! Right next to each other in the list, too! I love Bob, but have four of both of those cards and Ancient Tomb in the same deck just screams "Watch while I kill myself!"


Also I'm not familiar with the 3 color flavor of Angel Stompy but would Gerrard's Verdict be a good inclusion in this deck? It would never be a dead card in any matchup, unlike Duress which sometimes grabs nothing.

The 2cc double colour casting cost is the deterrant. While Duress is easy to cast and usually hits, you will have something much better to play with Verdict mana.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I don't see a spot for Verdict in this deck. My good buddy started this thread and did an excellent job in creating the deck. From watching him play, he always has a very strong turn 2 drop, as turn two is a very key turn for him, seeming as most of his creatures are 2cc. Verdict seems to be pulling the deck in a different direction. The duress is in there to make the COmbo matchup better. In addition, besides Serum Visions and Pithing Needle, Duress is the only other turn one play. But I think Phil would much rather cast a meddling mage or Dark Confidant on turn two rather than a Verdict.

[GoTreK]

Some other comments on the list? I think that could be the way to go. The original 3c lists looks slightly like "a bit of everything". Running out of threats was the original problem and 4 Confis would answer that, it's as simple as that. We have already agreed on 2 Confis (actually there was none...)and I don't know why 4 would be too much. It's just the logical step to take I think. Sensei's Top constantly generates cardquality and is nuts with Confi - don't forget the Top when saying that's too much lifeloss.

Have you noticed that I have already replaced Serendib with Spectral Lynx out of respect for the lifeloss issue? He has only cc2 and doesn't let you lose 1 life each turn and is equally strong imho.

edit: I forgot to mention that the Angel is the only card you don't want to hit with Confi. 4 cards out of 60 that hurt...

[legacyplayer0]

I don't see a spot for Verdict in this deck. My good buddy started this thread and did an excellent job in creating the deck. From watching him play, he always has a very strong turn 2 drop, as turn two is a very key turn for him, seeming as most of his creatures are 2cc. Verdict seems to be pulling the deck in a different direction. The duress is in there to make the COmbo matchup better. In addition, besides Serum Visions and Pithing Needle, Duress is the only other turn one play. But I think Phil would much rather cast a meddling mage or Dark Confidant on turn two rather than a Verdict.

Qft

The problem with adding more Confidants is that they are too rough on the life total without Sensei's Divining Top or replacing Duress with Cabal Therapy. Seeing as Duress is often used to get rid of removal, replacing it with a card that requires me to sacrifice creatures to make it not suck is very unsynergetic. Top is bad, becuase the deck has a very tight curve, and usually doesn't have any spare mana until turn 5. To make Top useful, I would have to play fewer actual spells, thus slowing down my development considerably.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Again Phil, Solidarity is terrible and you should really consider cutting Duress, Armageddon, In The Eye Of Chaos, Okinaba Gang Shinobi, and Meddling Mage. Those cards are awful, and you could always just replace them with Goblin War Wagons??


^Zach "The Man" Fine secret Techz0rs

[legacyplayer0]

As the Mana Leak Open approaches quickly, I've been worrying about some of my card choices, especially in the sideboard. I predict to see combo in all it's forms, threshold, a small ammount of Goblins and Faerie Stompy, plus a smaller than usual ammount of random stuff.

The List:

4 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Duress
2 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Knight
3 Exalted Angel
4 Soltari Priest
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serendib Efreet

The sideboard:
3 Rule of Law
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Armageddon
2 Okiba-gang "Bad Ass" Shinobi

Solidarity-
In: 2 Shinobi, 2 Geddon, 3 Rule of Law
Out: 4 StP, 3 Jitte

IGGy pop-
In: 3 Crypt, 3 Rule of Law
Out: 4 StP, 2 Jitte

Salvagers-
In: 3 Crypt, 3 Needle, 3 Rule of Law
Out: 4 Silver Knight, 2 Sword of Fire and Ice, 2 Serum Visions, 1 Duress

Threshold/w-
In: 2 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Shinobi, 3 Crypt
Out: 4 Silver Knight, 1 Jitte, 2 Serum Visions

Threshold/r-
In: 2 Seal of Cleansing, 3 Crypt
Out: 4 Meddling Mage, 1 Serum Visions

Goblins-
In: 3 Needle
Out: 3 Duress

Any criticism is appreciated.

[Bardo]

I like this deck a lot and I like the directions you've taken it, but, um, why do you bring in Seals against Threshold? EE? Worship? Perish seems much stronger.

Also, against storm-combo, is Rule of Law really better than Glowrider?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Okiba-gang Shinobi is the Techz0rs... high-fives shall ensue when Phil Ninjitsus this badass into play. w00t!!!

[legacyplayer0]

Seal of Cleansing comes in against threshold for Pithing Needle, and sometimes Worship. Perish is more powerful, but it's power has to be weighed against the fact that I have no outs against Chalice of the Void in Faerie Stompy. I can choose to totally give up the already bad Faerie Stompy matchup, or increase my chances against Threshold with Perish. I'll probably end up choosing Perish and hope I don't play against Chalice all day. I chose Rule of Law over Glowrider, becuase Rule of Law can hard-lock Solidarity when combined with Meddling Mage, it can't be played through with an extra high tide, it doesn't get bounced by Evacuation, and doesn't die to anti-Meddling Mage creature removal, though it's very debatable. The choice depends on how much Solidarity there will be in relation to other combo decks, and becuase people will be able to proxy Reset, I think that Rule of Law is the correct choice. Thanks for the help.

[tivadar]

I've been debating abolish (I don't know if you have the land to support it) for both chalice (they'll never hit chalice for 3) as well as for a first turn leyline + ill gotten gains with iggy. Had you considered this? Granted it's an additional mana, but that's rarely a problem. And in matches where you need it, it can be golden.

Also, FS is a bad matchup for you? Generally it's considered positive for AS. Is this because of the lack of parallax wave?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Did I miss the point where we decided if/why Rule of Law, at 3cc, was better than Mana Maze at 2cc in this deck?

[legacyplayer0]

Did I miss the point where we decided if/why Rule of Law, at 3cc, was better than Mana Maze at 2cc in this deck?

We didn't. But Mana Maze is IMO is better.

Abolish seems very good, but I'm not sure how to fit it in now that Perish has replaced Seal of Cleansing.

[tivadar]

Ya know, I'm a bit excited about Vesuvan Shapeshifter, seems he could be good in this deck. Obviously he's weaker against decks not running creatures, but he seems like he'd be amazing against thresh. Keep him face down and if they target him with removal, flip him into a goose. Also, he can impersonate angel and just seems better than serendib or probably even lynx. What are your thoughts?

[Lego]

Ya know, I'm a bit excited about Vesuvan Shapeshifter, seems he could be good in this deck. Obviously he's weaker against decks not running creatures, but he seems like he'd be amazing against thresh. Keep him face down and if they target him with removal, flip him into a goose. Also, he can impersonate angel and just seems better than serendib or probably even lynx. What are your thoughts?

The problem with replacing Serendib with this dude is that Serendib was put in as a lower CC finisher than Angel. Shapeshifter only costs one less than a hardcast angel, and costs two more than Serendib. He doesn't seem better against Thresh than Serendib, taking into account the CC, and doesn't seem like he'd be better in any other matchups either. He seems terrible versus Goblins, all forms of combo, and most Zoo decks. In fact, I can't honestly think of too many situations in which I would want him over Serendib. There will be the occasional times when there's a Mystic Enforcer in play and you have threshold, or you're staring down a random Yosei versus Rec Sur and Shapeshifter will come in hand, but I feel like most of the time it'll be a ridiculously overcosted Kird Ape, Goblin Ringleader, or Silver Knight.

I might play it if it had better synergy with Meddling Mage :wink:

[Bongo]

I recently tried out this AS variant and really liked it. Right now, I'm running this:


4 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Ancient Tomb

4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Knight
2 Serendib Efreet
3 Exalted Angel


I'd like to hear your opinions about my "unusual" choices, namely Mother of Runes and Top.

I found Soltari Priest to be less than stellar, so I swapped them for MoR, which fits on the manacurve as a 1-drop. While MoR isn't an attacking threat per se, it makes all your other creatures almost untouchable. This is very nice for protecting Confidant, morphed Angels from getting removed. A protected Confidant was a game-win most of the time, hence I upped the number to 4.

Top was included over Serum Visions to give me more long-term manipulation. Yeah, it's a bit mana-intensive, but it basically ensures you don't miss a land drop and don't take damage from Confidant. It's also good with the Fetchlands.

What do you think?

[Negator131]

One thing that surprises me, having read the whole thread, is that Soltari Priest is basically seen as a given in the deck, when it mostly just reinforces matchups which are already good, ie. Goblins and red-based Aggro. I'd probably cut it for something more valuable against a bad matchup, like some combination of Spectral Lynx and Jotun Grunt for Threshold.

Also, I think Top definately deserves more mention in this thread. Serum Visions and Brainstorm definately seem worse because they are one-shots. If this deck has problems with control because of things like running out of gas, Top just seems like the better inclusion. It also allows you to run more copies of another insane card against control, Dark Confidant.

Here's the list I would play:

3 Exalted Angel
2 Serendib Efreet
4 Silver Knight
4 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
3 Spectral Lynx
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Scrubland
4 Plains
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox

This list increases the threat density of the deck, along with its potential to come from behind after multiple board sweepers. It also dramatically (imo) increases the deck's game against Threshold, an admittedly bad matchup.

Thoughts?

[hagar852]

I tried fooling around with a list similar to this.

Yeah I think the top to does a good role for WHEN bob dies. I use mask of memory in my list to support the grunt and mystic crusader.

I like having Vindicate MD to deal with non creature threats. But that makes the deck more controlish.

I think the list is pretty decent. Be interested in seeing results in a tourney.

[tivadar]

I'm running the 2c version of this deck (Wu) and have found that my two problem matchups seem to be:

Confidant: They can do a good job at controlling your creatures (not sure if duress actually helps here), and can keep you low on your land count to prevent your exalted from hitting the board. Modern versions tend to run STP and Vindicate as well. I have occassionally run into cursed scroll too, which is just bad.

Burn: Traditional AS can race them, sometimes. Here, things go a bit slower. Jitte is good, if you get it out, exalted is good, but they're going to burn it. With traditional AS, at least mother was a "must burn" or else risk an exalted, that's not the case here.

Any comments on these matchups? Wondering how you play them and if you have any suggestions for them. One thing I'm actually thinking of doing in my version is boarding misdirection, as it's amazing against confidant, and reasonably good against burn too.

[Lego]

@Negator131: Soltari Priest does much more than you think. Him + Equipment is usually game, and he breaks down land stalls like nobody's business. If you've got a couple of Knights and a Confidant staring down a few creatures on the other side, Soltari Priest will just win the game for you. I can't count how may times those two things have simply won me the game.

@Tivadar: While I've never tested against Burn, I imagine Duress isn't horrible against them, and Exalted Angel is game. Other than that, it's probably not a great matchup for you. Board Hallow if you really fear it.

As for Deadguy, I played it this weekend, and it was very difficult, but I pulled it out. It's always a matchup where you need to play tight. With Mono-White, you just kick there ass with more threats and Parallax Wave. With two color I gather you also play the wave, plus Stifle for Wasteland, so you should be fine. In our games, he won game one when I mulled to 4 and kept a one lander, and he took care of my one land. Game two and three I won because he was able to keep me to two land, but I can run off two land. I was able to Swords his key creatures, and judicious use of Pithing Needle and Disenchant kept him disrupted just enough to get some equipment out, from which point it was just elemental to find a creature and win.

Basically, Confidant still loses to resolved creatures, so all you've really got to do is get enough land out to play a couple of creatures. If you get an Exalted Angel, you've won. If you get a creature and equipment, you've probably won there as well. Umezawa's Jitte kicks their ass. If you're playing Serendib Efreet, they're hot as well. I'd board Pithing Needles, but probably not Disenchant unless you see some reason for it game 1.