[Primer/Deck] Burn

[CabalTherapy]

I would most likely suggest taking out Flame Rift, at least when you sideboard against them. They are an aggro deck as well in some aspects and being able to turn their tide by hitting yourself for 4 can be really bad. I know some people may suggest Searing Blaze, but against the BUG variant, it will only be hitting the 4 of Delvers. If you are replacing your storm hate, I would suggest thinking about your graveyard hate suite, because currently you do not have any. Something like Tormod's Crypt can be very good against Dredge/Reanimator, and it can also come in against BUG as a 1-2 of, to keep their Nimble/Gofys smaller. Bridges are also a big part of this match up, but if they run Abrupt, which they can, it can make it pretty lackluster but at the same time, it is still relevant. If I take your current mainboard and fake a sideboard, I can give you an idea of a sideboarding plan below:
-4 Flame Rift
-3 Sulfuric Vortex
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Pyroblast

I would only agree to remove storm hate if your meta has no storm players, I find that match up to be very rough for burn. I have a positive record overall against storm with my deck and most of the time winning against them did not require a Mindbreak Trap because they usually go on the discard plan Game 2/3 anyway and are slower out of the gate. Although I still find it to be a very significant thing to have around, when it does work, it is a blow out against them.

Someone mentioned it before I guess, but Burn is a strong choice at the moment and by far the best aggro deck to play. (although there are not many/none :P)
Consequently I am swithing back to Burn to beat the shit out of shitty Mystic and Delver decks.

Some thoughts about the Storm MU:
I haven't run Mindbreak Trap and I won't use it because even a mediocre Storm player (I am one on my own.) will just use Duress, Probe+Therapy, Silence to disrupt the hand.
And without Brainstorm, Ponder it is not possible to draw the Trap instantly. I use 4 Surgical Extractions to fight grave based decks and Storm which is partly also grave based (ANT).
It is proactive and taking out Brainstorm is a big deal = best cantrip out + library shuffle after some manipulation by the Storm player. PiF is weakened by it too.
My board looks like this:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Blasts
2 Searing Blaze
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 some random stuff I feel I need to play now (Pillar/StS/SSpree/Needle/...)

[WeatherseedMage]

I have been using a main deck taiga and then revelries out of the side since they dropped. It feels so good knowing that you can just play around with not getting the taiga and in g2/g3 they bring in leylines or get a batterskull and you aren't stone cold dead (obviously you could still get there, but it is very nice getting rid of the goalie).

[paeng4983]

http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/searingblood.jpg

New toy for fetchless burn decks where Searing Blaze isn't optimal. Thoughts?

Uhmmm... I'd still go for the landfall burn spell because it can still do 3 damage to your opponent even if you failed to kill the creature it targeted as compared to this one.

[CabalTherapy]

I won a small Legacy with burn yesterday. Although lucky due to good opp-score.
List was/is:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 LBolt
4 CLightning
4 RBolt
4 LSpike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 FRift
4 SVortex
9 Mountains
11 fetchlands

4 Surgical Extraction
5 Blasts (cut after the tournament to 2)
4 Searing Blaze
2 Volcanic Fallout

Matches were:
Esperdeathblade 2-0
Shardless BUG 2-0
Esperstoneblade 1-2
Elves 2-1

[Basara]

Satyr firedancer , has anyone tested this guy yet??, for me this guy is playable at least in modern burn , imagine magical christmas land : Pop for 6 then bye bye tarmogoyfgoyf

[CabalTherapy]

Satyr firedancer , has anyone tested this guy yet??, for me this guy is playable at least in modern burn , imagine magical christmas land : Pop for 6 then bye bye tarmogoyfgoyf

Please, just don't propose this creature here. We are not mtg salvation.

[jmeka]

Sucked it up and bought into Legacy on modo. Finally cashed in a Daily. Here's my list as of now:

4 Goblin Guide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Goblin Guide)
4 Grim Lavamancer (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grim Lavamancer)
2 Figure of Destiny (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Figure of Destiny)

4 Lightning Bolt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning Bolt)
4 Chain Lightning (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chain Lightning)
4 Lava Spike (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lava Spike)
4 Rift Bolt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rift Bolt)
4 Flame Rift (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flame Rift)
4 Price of Progress (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Price of Progress)
4 Fireblast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Fireblast)
2 Sulfuric Vortex (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sulfuric Vortex)

4 Bloodstained Mire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bloodstained Mire)
4 Arid Mesa (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Arid Mesa)
2 Wooded Foothills (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wooded Foothills)
10 Mountain (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mountain)

SB:
4 Surgical Extraction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical Extraction)
4 Searing Blaze (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Searing Blaze)
3 Smash to Smithereens (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smash to Smithereens)
2 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring Bridge)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar (http://deckbox.orgmtg//Pyrostatic Pillar)

R1: Esper Deathblade (0-2)
R2: UWR Delver (2-0)
R3: UWR Delver (2-1)
R4: Affinity (2-1)

[wooboy11]

IMO, there's almost no reason to run Searing Blaze over Searing Blood. The latter is so much easier to profit from and versatile.

[tuulisiipi]

IMO, there's almost no reason to run Searing Blaze over Searing Blood. The latter is so much easier to profit from and versatile.

Well there is few very important reasons to run blaze over blood. One reason is that blaze has 2 targets, creature and player. If creature dies player still takes damage, with blood player takes no damge if creature dies before spell resolution. Second reason is that blaze is always guaranteed damage to player if it resolves. Example, you top deck blaze and only creature is 4/5 tarmogoy and opponent at 3 life. Nice searing blood :)

[wooboy11]

Well there is few very important reasons to run blaze over blood. One reason is that blaze has 2 targets, creature and player. If creature dies player still takes damage, with blood player takes no damge if creature dies before spell resolution. Second reason is that blaze is always guaranteed damage to player if it resolves. Example, you top deck blaze and only creature is 4/5 tarmogoy and opponent at 3 life. Nice searing blood :)

It sure can happen, but I mean, as a sideboard card, it shouldn't happen often. I used to run only 2 blazes on the SB, and I never had to use it just for the player's damage, but I see your point. I just think that a situation such as drawing a blaze mid game, with no lands in hand against an active DRS/flipped delver happens more often.

[sippingcider]

What does burn do against leyline of sanctuary?


Satyr firedancer , has anyone tested this guy yet??, for me this guy is playable at least in modern burn , imagine magical christmas land : Pop for 6 then bye bye tarmogoyfgoyf

I wonder about this guy too. Also young pyromancer?

[Valtrix]

I've been playing satyr firedancer in the sideboard of modern burn. Basically, if your opponent doesn't have removal for it and they need to attack with creatures you will beat them 100% of the time. He's just so much card advantage/tempo it's insane. Plus, he attacks when the board is free so he still gets in for damage. That said, I'm not sure how much that type of effect is needed for burn in Legacy. If you have a lot of aggro decks it could be worthwhile.

[DragoFireheart]

What does burn do against leyline of sanctuary?


Curl up into a ball and cry itself to sleep?

[ahg113]

What does burn do against leyline of sanctuary?

1. Attack with creatures
2. Price of Progress(?)
3. Flame Rift
4. Sulfuric Vortex
5. Pyrostatic Pillar(?)

Common red cards that deal damage without targeting

[Valtrix]

If you're really concerned about Leyline of Sanctity or counterbalance you can potentially splash green for Destructive Revelry. I think most lists are running smash to smithereens somewhere in the sideboard, so it's probably an easy swap. The manabase is pretty stable already, so I think this is probably a fine call to make.

[DragoFireheart]

1. Attack with creatures
2. Price of Progress(?)
3. Flame Rift
4. Sulfuric Vortex
5. Pyrostatic Pillar(?)

Common red cards that deal damage without targeting

1. Your creatures are likely DOA since we run so few.
2. Will get auto-hit with counters/discard.
3/4: Killing yourself doesn't seem like a good plan when they run more creatures and you lack burn to finish them off.
5. I hope this wasn't serious.

[Valtrix]

His post seemed pretty valid to me. There are ways around a Leyline in normal deck configurations. That said, the real issue is that there aren't enough of them to consistently beat a leyline in my opinion. You basically have to hope the other player gets greedy and walks into a price of progress for a large amount of damage.

[DragoFireheart]

His post seemed pretty valid to me. There are ways around a Leyline in normal deck configurations. That said, the real issue is that there aren't enough of them to consistently beat a leyline in my opinion. You basically have to hope the other player gets greedy and walks into a price of progress for a large amount of damage.

Point #5 seems silly but yes, he made valid points. But it's an uphill battle and hoping for your opponent to misplay doesn't seem like a good idea.

[ahg113]

Point #5 seems silly but yes, he made valid points. But it's an uphill battle and hoping for your opponent to misplay doesn't seem like a good idea.

The choices seem better than curling into a ball and crying.

[tuulisiipi]

1. Your creatures are likely DOA since we run so few.
2. Will get auto-hit with counters/discard.
3/4: Killing yourself doesn't seem like a good plan when they run more creatures and you lack burn to finish them off.
5. I hope this wasn't serious.

3/4 it is totally fine hit theme with flame rift. If they run more creatures what do we run that cant target player but can target creatures on that situation? :D thats right all our burn becomes creature removal...

[LeoCop 90]

Obviously you are gonna lose 90% of the time against a leyline.... but the card is not played enough to justify splashing green for destructive revelry in my opinion.

Just hope not to face it , like grave based decks don't want to face leyline of the void.

[MST negates]

Obviously you are gonna lose 90% of the time against a leyline.... but the card is not played enough to justify splashing green for destructive revelry in my opinion.

Just hope not to face it , like grave based decks don't want to face leyline of the void.

This.

[Nina]

Hello everbody,

I have messed around quiet some time with a burn deck and want to join the Discussion.

First things first, this is the decklist I settled on:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain
1 Skullcrack (The 60th card is still under consideration. Should it be a Mountain a Brabarian Ring or another Burn spell?)

I also tested the version with fetchlands and Grim Lavamancers, but i didn't like it. (If you run into a Meta with Leylines in every SB you can probably add 2 Taigas and Destructive Revlerys but thats all) But as discussed above it's indeed not worth splashing green for the Leyline.

I feel our worst matchups are Show and Tell variants, Storm and Decks with Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull/Jitte.

My first SB looked like this:
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Angel of Despair
SB: 4 Farie Marcabre

But after i experienced that every decent Storm pilot finds his ways around the Trap as only SB card and i read an article about Splitting hate to make playing around it harder i am testing this Sideboard plan:

SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Angel of Despair (This is just a nostalgic choice, as my first set was Guildpact)
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Confusion in the Ranks

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens

SB: 1 Vexing Shusher

SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast

What i like about this, is that some of the Cards are good for different problematic decks.
REB and Pyroblast work against Show and Tell and Counterbalance, Surgical Extraction is against Storm, but also is (obviously) Gravehate and Needle shuts off Sneak Attack and other random stuff.
Spine of Ish Sah went in after an opponent lured my Ashed Rider out with the 1st copy of Show and tell and a land and then played a 2nd.
I am not sure about the numbers, and would be happy about some advice for unknown/Decks to Beat metas.

[jmeka]

Hello everbody,

I have messed around quiet some time with a burn deck and want to join the Discussion.

First things first, this is the decklist I settled on:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain
1 Skullcrack (The 60th card is still under consideration. Should it be a Mountain a Brabarian Ring or another Burn spell?)

I also tested the version with fetchlands and Grim Lavamancers, but i didn't like it. (If you run into a Meta with Leylines in every SB you can probably add 2 Taigas and Destructive Revlerys but thats all) But as discussed above it's indeed not worth splashing green for the Leyline.

I feel our worst matchups are Show and Tell variants, Storm and Decks with Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull/Jitte.

My first SB looked like this:
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Angel of Despair
SB: 4 Farie Marcabre

But after i experienced that every decent Storm pilot finds his ways around the Trap as only SB card and i read an article about Splitting hate to make playing around it harder i am testing this Sideboard plan:

SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Angel of Despair (This is just a nostalgic choice, as my first set was Guildpact)
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Confusion in the Ranks

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens

SB: 1 Vexing Shusher

SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast

What i like about this, is that some of the Cards are good for different problematic decks.
REB and Pyroblast work against Show and Tell and Counterbalance, Surgical Extraction is against Storm, but also is (obviously) Gravehate and Needle shuts off Sneak Attack and other random stuff.
Spine of Ish Sah went in after an opponent lured my Ashed Rider out with the 1st copy of Show and tell and a land and then played a 2nd.
I am not sure about the numbers, and would be happy about some advice for unknown/Decks to Beat metas.

People were discussing earlier about outs to Leyline. Well, Spine of Ish Sah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spine of Ish Sah) is one of them.

Your SB seems pretty tuned to your metagame. I'm wondering if you have enough creatures to proc Confusion in the Ranks (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Confusion in the Ranks). Hellspark is an unearth guy, so I guess there's that.

As for your one-of slot, there's a couple cards you can consider:

Gitaxian Probe (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian Probe): Information is nice when wondering about counters, replaces itself, is free
Figure of Destiny (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Figure of Destiny): Good flood insurance as a way to sink your mana, more efficient creatures are handy vs Leyline
Slagstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Slagstorm): OK against creature decks, or a slow Flame Rift at worst

[cogitoergosum]

People were discussing earlier about outs to Leyline.


How about chaos warp?

[Nina]

People were discussing earlier about outs to Leyline. Well, Spine of Ish Sah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spine of Ish Sah) is one of them.

Your SB seems pretty tuned to your metagame.

To be honest i tried to create something that beats the most problematic Decks in general. Show and Tell and Storm are faster, stoneblady stuff gains life and the REB also helps against counter top (The Shusher is for the sad events, when Counterbalance or Chalive of the Void are already on the battlefield).
Spine against Leyline seems to optimistic for me. Do you hope to hardcast it, or getting a free Show and Tell activation with no more important target?


I'm wondering if you have enough creatures to proc Confusion in the Ranks (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Confusion in the Ranks). Hellspark is an unearth guy, so I guess there's that.


12/1/2004: Confusion in the Ranks triggers on itself entering the battlefield. If an opponent controls an enchantment, exchange Confusion in the Ranks for that enchantment.
It's mainly there to get Omniscience when brought in by Show and Tell. Makes funny burn explosions...




As for your one-of slot, there's a couple cards you can consider:

Gitaxian Probe (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian Probe): Information is nice when wondering about counters, replaces itself, is free
Figure of Destiny (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Figure of Destiny): Good flood insurance as a way to sink your mana, more efficient creatures are handy vs Leyline
Slagstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Slagstorm): OK against creature decks, or a slow Flame Rift at worst

I ran Gitaxian Probe for some time, but as you can't do much about counters in your opponents hand, playing carefully does help as much in my experience.
Figure of Destiny is a horrible topdeck, i feel better only running creatures with haste.
Slagstorm feels just weak to me, if i would consider a sweeper i would play Volcanic Fallout.


How about chaos warp?

Has very limited applications imho, but if you expect to only see decks with Leylines in the SB it's probably viable.

---------------

There is some other stuff i would like to talk about:

How many lands are in a keepable opening hand?
I am often tempted to Keep 1 Land and 6 Spell hands, but sometimes that's backbreaking.
Do you experienced guys advice against keeping one-landers?

Also i am not always sure what cards to side out when sideboarding.
Against Show and Tell/Storm i mostly side out Sulfuric Vortex, as it's to slow.
Any advice on what to side out in the Storm/Show and Tell/Blade/Counterbalance Matchups?

[sippingcider]

So it sounds like leyline is just not worth having sideboard for :(

Anyways, here is a list I currently have:


Deck: Legacy Fireball.dec

Counts : 60 main / 14 sideboard

Creatures:1
1 Grim Lavamancer

Spells:39
4 Chain Lightning
3 Faithless Looting
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
2 Skullcrack
3 Fiery Temper
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 Runeflare Trap

Lands:20
20 Mountain

Sideboard:14
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Shattering Spree
2 Cave-In
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Runeflare Trap
1 (not sure yet)

The runeflare seems good against grislebrand, brainstorm, and maybe even ANT (hoping they brainstorm the turn they ad nausem :)

I am trying a little faithless looting/fiery temper combo, not sure it will be worth it or not.

Any ideas?

[jmeka]

There is some other stuff i would like to talk about:

How many lands are in a keepable opening hand?
I am often tempted to Keep 1 Land and 6 Spell hands, but sometimes that's backbreaking.
Do you experienced guys advice against keeping one-landers?

Also i am not always sure what cards to side out when sideboarding.
Against Show and Tell/Storm i mostly side out Sulfuric Vortex, as it's to slow.
Any advice on what to side out in the Storm/Show and Tell/Blade/Counterbalance Matchups?

I keep plenty of one-land hands, especially if drawing the 2nd land means my whole hand will be turned on, though I'd have to have at least Guide + 2-3 one-mana spells. I guess I'd want to do a minimum of 4-5 things with one mana.

With Storm, I usually bring in GY hate if they have Past in Flames, or to snipe a random cantrip. Like you said, I side out slow stuff like Vortex and also Price of Progress isn't too great when they go off with about 2 lands and LEDs/Petals.

As for the other matches, it really depends on the make of your sb. You already have specific cards for Show and Tell (Ashen Rider/Confusion/Angel). Pyros/REBs for Counterbalance and Blade decks. I've just been trying to keep my SB as proactive as possible.



So it sounds like leyline is just not worth having sideboard for :(

Anyways, here is a list I currently have:


Deck: Legacy Fireball.dec

Counts : 60 main / 14 sideboard

Creatures:1
1 Grim Lavamancer

Spells:39
4 Chain Lightning
3 Faithless Looting
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
2 Skullcrack
3 Fiery Temper
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 Runeflare Trap

Lands:20
20 Mountain

Sideboard:14
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Shattering Spree
2 Cave-In
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Runeflare Trap
1 (not sure yet)

The runeflare seems good against grislebrand, brainstorm, and maybe even ANT (hoping they brainstorm the turn they ad nausem :)

I am trying a little faithless looting/fiery temper combo, not sure it will be worth it or not.

Any ideas?

At first glance, no Goblin Guide makes me very sad. It actually is one of the better ways to "deal" with a Leyline. I also like Smash to Smithereens (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smash to Smithereens) over Shattering Spree for artifact removal. Keeping up the damage while dealing with their stuff is always awesome.

[Brael]

What does burn do against leyline of sanctuary?

I've played Burn for years now, the best burn list in my opinion these days plays Destructive Revelry in the sideboard, 8-12 fetches, 1 taiga, and enough Mountains to get to whatever land count you like (18 is my preference)

Destructive Revelry is so unbelievably good it's unreal, and it slides neatly in place of Smash to Smithereenes.

I'm kind of low on the fetches so I actually run two different manabases, one for proxy events and one for non proxy events... I'll just list the proxy one since it's the ideal
Land 18
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga
7 Mountain

Creatures 12
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauder
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vexing Devil

Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
2 Reckless Abandon
2 Lava Spike
2 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Runeflare Trap

The probes are probably questionable but I like them. It's cheap lavamancer fuel and a small number of free cantrips doesn't hurt anything, and the information is nice. The main reason I run them though is to maintain a higher damage:mana ratio in the deck. The next best spell is worse than the second Lava Spike which isn't very good anyways, so I would rather just hit my better spells more often, than a worse spell.

[Technics]

What does burn do against leyline of sanctuary?

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Anarchy

[Brael]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Anarchy

Anarchy was good, it was pretty nice against Enchantress too. Destructive Revelry is insane though. You do have to risk some interaction with your opponent through Stifle/Wasteland (though you can Fireblast the Wasteland target away) but it is very much worth it. Burn previously had huge problems dealing with enchantments, the few cards that could do it were expensive and watered down the damage plan. Revelry is cheap, instant speed, and domes them.

The feeling of blowing up a Chill or stopping an Isochron Scepter+Silence lockout is really good.

[twndomn]

Uhmmm... I'd still go for the landfall burn spell because it can still do 3 damage to your opponent even if you failed to kill the creature it targeted as compared to this one.

Most creatures, the important ones, will die. The following is the exceptions:
1. Krenko, Mob Boss (Bolt it instead?)
2. Knight of the Reliquary (opponent will play it when it's out of burn spell range anyway)
3. Huge creature either show and tell, reanimate, GSZ, or natural order into play. In that case, no burn spell would matter.
4. Goyf, just ignore it.

Bottom line, Blood is better than Blaze since no landfall is required. That would cover like 70% of time. There would be rare occasion when you play against Vial (tribal) deck in which their Gobo or Merfolk got pumped, but then you should perhaps kill those Chieftain or Lord, or race then.

There ought to be more people playing Burn. Goyf is at all time low. WUR Delver and occasionally Miracle players are trashing combo for Burn players.

[tuulisiipi]

Most creatures, the important ones, will die. The following is the exceptions:
1. Krenko, Mob Boss (Bolt it instead?)
2. Knight of the Reliquary (opponent will play it when it's out of burn spell range anyway)
3. Huge creature either show and tell, reanimate, GSZ, or natural order into play. In that case, no burn spell would matter.
4. Goyf, just ignore it.

Bottom line, Blood is better than Blaze since no landfall is required. That would cover like 70% of time. There would be rare occasion when you play against Vial (tribal) deck in which their Gobo or Merfolk got pumped, but then you should perhaps kill those Chieftain or Lord, or race then.

There ought to be more people playing Burn. Goyf is at all time low. WUR Delver and occasionally Miracle players are trashing combo for Burn players.

Landfall burn spell searing blaze is much better if you play enough fetches. 3 dmg vs 2 dmg and guaranted dmg to player is very important. I was play testin blood on gp paris last chance qualifier and blood cost me game and i was eliminated. I played against bug delver, witch is really popular deck now. He played tombstalker and ill had grimm lavamancer on table, 2 mountains and fetch land and my hand was 2 searing blood. Lost the game to toombstalker. So searing blood is playable on fetchless burn only!!!! Otherwise play searing blaze, with 10-12 fetches you have almost allways landfall if you know how to play the deck. On gp paris i played main deck 4 searing blaze and i never had problem to get landfall when i needed it.

Point 4 goyf, just ignore it: opponent on 3 life and your hand is searing blood (goyf 4/5 and you got fetch on table) vs searing blaze and win the game. Yeah just ignore goyf and lose game.
Same story goes on show and tell if they drop grislebrand.

[Palitos]

Hi

Against combo decks that creature is better?

Figure of Destiny or Hellspark Elemental ?

Use a deck without fetchlands:

//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 ????????????

//Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Magma Jet

//Enchantments
3 Sulfuric Vortex

//Sorcerys
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift

//Lands
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Blazing Archon

Thanks for everything and sorry for writing but I do not speak English. :_(

[Lyle Hopkins]

Hi

Against combo decks that creature is better?

Figure of Destiny or Hellspark Elemental ?

Use a deck without fetchlands(

In a build without fetch lands, I like playing Hellspark Elemental as my second creature spot. Between the two creatures, Hellspark Elemental is stronger against combo because it can deal damage the turn it is cast.

[Strassbaw]

Going to a small tournament tonight and thinking about trying this list that probably won't work, but I wanna try it:

--- Burn with black/blue splash---
Goblin guide 4
Deathrite shaman 4
Young pyromaniac 4

Gitaxian probe 2
Bump in the night 4
Lightning bolt 4
Chain lightning 4
Price of progress 4
Rift bolt 4
Lava spike 4
Fireblast 4

Volcanic island 1
Mountain 3
Badlands 3
Fetch 11

Sideboard:
Cabal therapy 4
Spell pierce 3
Sulfuric vortex 4
Searing blaze 4

If anyone has tested a deck like this with results already I'd like to read about it. Maybe if I run 11 fetches, DRS, and 2 probes I'll get the mana I need, and 12 creatures with cabal therapy may be enough, but I'm not sure. Maybe it'll work if I don't play RUG tonight. :)

[Strassbaw]

So i decided to go with the idea, tweaked this list a good deal, and got top 4 (everyone split in top 4) in a 4 round swiss. I went 3-1 in the swiss rounds, but the deck needs a lot of work!! Here was the 75 I played, and at the end, i will discuss the 75 I may run next week:


--- Burn with black/blue splash---
Goblin guide 4
Deathrite shaman 4
Hellspark elemental 3
Grim Lavamancer 3

Bump in the night 4
Lightning bolt 4
Chain lightning 4
Price of progress 4
Rift bolt 4
Lava spike 4
Fireblast 4

Volcanic island 1
Mountain 2
Badlands 3
Fetch 12

Sideboard:
Cabal therapy 4
Spell pierce 3
Sulfuric vortex 3
Searing blaze 3
Red Elemental 2

Round 1: Played against a burn deck and lost 0-2
In this round I learned that Taiga is ABSOLUTELY necessary in this deck if Deathrite shaman is in the deck. Too late to change it now and I had to run with it to learn more. To stand a chance against the combo decks like dredge, reanimator or other fast decks, Taiga would be verry effective, so adding Green and losing Blue is the next step in building.

I lost pretty outright each game. The life gain is so necessary in this matchup, and DRS was pretty much a lavamancer in the matchup.


Round 2: Jund 2-0

The person having unknown deck is in a game can be huge advantage, especially in game 1. Game 2 my sideboard was adding 3 Searing Blaze and pulling out the Hellsparks.

Round 3: UWR Delverblade

This person was very new to magic, so disregard the results of this matchup. I adding in Searing Blaze and Sulfuric Vortex, and the REBS and pulled out the Lavaspikes and the Bump in the Nights as these cards do not prevent turn 3 Batterskull on board. Hellspark was considered as a sideboarding-out option, however, this card can be used for 6 damage, which seems more practical than 3 damage, and extra targets that are not Grim Lavamancer for Swords to Plowshares to target seems like a better idea.

Round 4 UR Delver 2-1

This match was pretty close, and a ballsy blind Fireblast won me game 1. The most difficult play choices in this matchup for me came from knowing when to fireblast (Some times its all or nothing and you have no choice but to risk losing 2 mountains to fireblast, but sometimes you dont known your dead the next turn. Once you let UR delver with cards in hand to Untap you risk this player ending the game by killing you, or drawing more counter magic) and knowing when to consider targeting his Goblin Guide and Delver with lightning bolts and other removal.

I sideboarded out 4 price of progress, and 1 bump in the night for 3 searingblaze and 2 REB.

Top 8

OmniTell 2-1

Somehow I win game 1. I kept a 1 land hand for no good reason, drew two more lands and just Scrubed my way to victory LOL. Most importantly I won the dice roll for first!

Game two I board in 2 rebs, 4 Cabal therapy, 3 spell peirce and pull out 4 PoP, 3 GrimLavamancer, and 2 deathrite shaman.

He starts game 2 with Leyline of Sanctity, he finds out that I have a volcanic island and plays conservative and wins around turn 5 or 6 after beating me with Dreamhalls into Enter the Infinite, Ants combo. He counter spelled through my 1 Red Elemental blast. I had 6 cards in my hand at the end of the game that were all Bolt-like cards.

game 3 I decide to try sulfuric vortex, as this card does not target if he lands a leyline. I add my Deathrite shaman back (Best choice I made all night!) and pulled out my Bump in the nights and some lavaspikes (maybe riftbolt is the weakest card. it helps play around counter magic, but you can be a turn late with a suspended rift bolt in play) and gave that a shot. DRS got me the early blue mana needed to use spell pierce and Red elemental blast all in the same turn to stop a dream halls. The DRS also did a good deal of damage with its black mana ability. I won the game with the counter magic and killed him at about turn 6 or 7 while keeping mana open for counters. After my victory, I wondered if Thoughtseize would be a better option than spell pierce or REB. Guess ill have to test it.

If i were to play burn again, I would try this list at my store that plays a ton of blade and counterbalance:


--- Burn with black/green splash---
Goblin guide 4
Deathrite shaman 4
Grim Lavamancer 4 (-1 PoP maybe)
Hellspark Elemental 3


Bump in the night 4
Lightning bolt 4
Chain lightning 4
Price of progress 3 (maybe)
Rift bolt 4
Lava spike 4
Fireblast 4

Taiga 1
Mountain 2
Badlands 3
Fetch 12

Sideboard:
Cabal therapy 4
Sulfuric vortex 3
Red elemental blast 2
thoughtseize 3 (maybe +1 POP)
Krosan Grip 2

Not once did I get to cast a Cabal Therapy this Wednesday. I simply just did not draw in against the match I boarded it in. I do not know how practical this spell is in the deck right now. Thoughtseize and REB could work just fine, or maybe Ill learn that those cards will not slow the combo decks down enough. Spell pierce seems like it would be stronger in a Meta filled with more Storm, Dredge, Reanimator and Sneak and tell; and currently my store does not often use those decks, so i think the discard and Reb might be enough to get the wins next week. Ill keep posting if I get to play again next week.

Thanks for reading!

[twndomn]

Thoughtseize and hand disruptions, while they might buy you 1 or 2 turns, they don't advance the board state. Opponent's life total did not go down. You might get away with splashing weaker color in Modern, but it's rather mediocre in Legacy.

Splashing White for Spirit of the Labyrinth as a hate bear and a way to reduce life total, that I understand.

[Strassbaw]

@PMtwndomn

Spirit of the Labyrinth seems like a cool idea, but cards that cost 2 mana and doesn't have haste , or an ETB effect like Keldon Marauders I often do not like. The card seems like an effective tool with good stats, but ultimately (my mind may change later, especially because I've never play tested the idea) I'd rather run the alternative 2 drops in Red and sideboard to beat the other decks that combo.

I like your thoughts on the black splash, maybe the hand disruption won't advance the board state, but adding a turn or 2 to the game could give me the turns needed against combo. Often in those matchups I don't have an abundance of cards in my hand when I lose the game (usually left standing with a handful of burn spells unplayed) so if one card was a disruptive play, it might have bought me more time than a lava spike. Only play testing will answer that question on the effectiveness of the black splash. As far as being wastelanded into a loss with this mana base, it has not happened. I think 2 mountains to fetch might be enough in this TNN metagame with Blade decks and control decks all over the feild.


I have never tested a white splash, and mainly I haven't done it because of the lack of cards I think would be effective in that color. Maybe I am wrong, but main deck, cards like steppe Lynx and Boros charm do not seem like they are worth the splash (although the white splash seems great for sidebord) , however black and blue had many attractive options in my mind. Cards like bump in the night promote grim lavamancer being a strong turn 1 play, and even though, I didn't play it, Gitaxian probe and other blue spells promotes Grim Lavamancer synergy (And 12 fetch lands make mana fixing easy when stiffle isn't being heavy play) in the deck.

I'm gonna try a list like my most updated list next week, and I'll post the results. My local game store has a lot of jund, miracles and blade so this may explain a lot of my card choices.

[Purp]

Hello all. I am beginning to prepare a deck for the SCG Invitational at Charlotte in a couple weeks and have decided to play burn. I don't play much legacy, but I am confident in the deck as well as my ability to pilot it.

For starters, here is my MD:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt

9 Mountains
12 Fetches

SB: This is where I could use some coaching, being an Invitational I am not really sure how exactly to prepare my SB.

3 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyroblast
3 Ensaring Bridge
3 Pyroclasm
3 Smash to Smithereens

I have seen some lists drop Flame Rift online in favor of Skullcrack. I have also seen discussion on Pyroclasm vs Searing Blaze. Also, do we need pyroblast? Or should that be pyrostatic pillar?

I plan to grind a lot over the next two weeks and should have a lot of information to report. Being new to the legacy metagame has me a bit nervous, so incite from you more experienced players would be much appreciated!
Thanks

[Purp]

Is pyroclasm better vs D&T or is Searing Blaze?

[Strassbaw]

@purp

The list 60 card main deck you are running should be very stable and consistent, so you should do well with that, however, I disagree with several sideboard cards and I'll explain what other choices I may consider.

Fairy macabre is a good card mainly when Reanimator is a big deal in the Legacy format. This card cannot be counterspelled. The instant speed graveyard removal ability that cannot be countered makes this the idea card to beat Reanimator decks, but against other decks, the graveyard hate can be pretty weak (this card might buy you the necessary time vurses dredge decks, but other cards like Tormods crypt hurt the dredge achitype more). Sense Reanimator and dredge are not getting much play in my area I would not use this card right now in my sideboard.

The next option I seen was Smash to Smithereens. This card is a card I've began not to like very much because of play testing. In the decks that kill you with artifacts (currently, just Stoneforge mystic, this card would not do very much against the U/W miracles decks.) this card can sit in your hand all game and do nothing. Decks with Stoneforge Mystic can kill opponents without the need artifacts, and smash to smitheens can be a dead card because you may never get to cast it. This is why I like sulfuric vortex most as an option to beat stoneforge mystic decks. Maybe 1 or 2 of smash to smithereens can be added to a sideboard if your play testing experience goes better than mine, but I would discourage 3 of then because of the possibility of the card being a dead card against stoneforge mystic.

Lastly we have pyroclasm. I have never texted this card in this deck. I think having grim Lavamancer in the deck, and burn decks being mostly good against "fair" decks, this card may not be necessary at all. Maybe if elves or DnT and big decks that you struggle to beat in your area, but overall I would not consider pyroclasm as a board choice (I've been wrong, but this doesn't feel right). Everygame that you board in pyroclasm, you will certainly keep grim lavamancer in the deck, and pyroclasm does kill your own dudes. Searing blaze is a good option, however, landfall, even with 12 fetch and 21 total lands is not a guarantee. Id sooner use Searing Blaze, but that doesn't make it correct!

Ensnaring Bridge and pyroblast are good cards but keep playing until you know why you made each choice. When it comes to sideboard it's much easier to spot the wrong options than the right ones. If you find a bunch of people to test again, your sideboard will change daily. If you want more advice on why or why not you should choose ensnaring bridge & pyroblast together, don't be afraid to reach out again. Good luck! I hope that helps.

[Purp]

Update to my testing list:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt

9 Mountains
12 Fetches

SB
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pyroblast
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blaze

I did 4 Pyroblast because I expect Blue to be a heavy (>50%) of the meta at the invitational.

[Lyle Hopkins]

With Counter/Top being popular again, I was curious as to what everyone might be doing to combat this unfavourable match-up. I've been thinking about dusting off my Vexing Shushers à la 2012 Patrick Sullivan.

[Zoomer3989]

With Counter/Top being popular again, I was curious as to what everyone might be doing to combat this unfavourable match-up. I've been thinking about dusting off my Vexing Shushers à la 2012 Patrick Sullivan.

Happen to really like this idea. I'm currently sideboarding 3. The 4th can often be redundant, and allows you a free SB slot, sort of like sideboarding 3 Ensnaring Bridge instead of 4th.

Question to people running 21 land and 3 Vortex: have you ever felt flooded? I currently feel flooded on 20 land (12/8 split fetches to mountains), but I've never found the random single card to be better then the 4th Vortex, especially without any real draw power. Also, people are running more Abrupt Decay and other anti-artifact/enchantment hate, so one being destroyed per game I've found is common. I often SB them out against decks with Abrupt Decay that are in anyway aggressive (like Jund, Bug Delver, Shardless Bug).

Also, has anyone tested 12/8 versus 11/9 on the land counts? Curious if the mathematics matter here.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Happen to really like this idea. I'm currently sideboarding 3. The 4th can often be redundant, and allows you a free SB slot, sort of like sideboarding 3 Ensnaring Bridge instead of 4th.

Question to people running 21 land and 3 Vortex: have you ever felt flooded? I currently feel flooded on 20 land (12/8 split fetches to mountains), but I've never found the random single card to be better then the 4th Vortex, especially without any real draw power. Also, people are running more Abrupt Decay and other anti-artifact/enchantment hate, so one being destroyed per game I've found is common. I often SB them out against decks with Abrupt Decay that are in anyway aggressive (like Jund, Bug Delver, Shardless Bug).

Also, has anyone tested 12/8 versus 11/9 on the land counts? Curious if the mathematics matter here.

The 20 land versus 21 land debate is something I'm interested in as well. I've been playing 20 lands for the last year and I've been fairly happy with it. That being said, the red master, Patrick Sullivan, has several lists with 21. I can see that this might help against soft counters and ultimately decreasing the number of 1 land opening hands, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Also, I agree with you about the forth Vortex. Being able to cast multiple copies in a game can sometimes be very important, in my opinion, especially with all the Abrupt Decay decks that are popular right now.

Concerning fetch lands, I have been playing 11/9 for the last little while and I haven't noticed any problem keeping Grim Lavamancer fed. I had a friend hip me to the 11/9 ratio and his theory was this: 8 mountains to pitch to Fireblast and one left over to cast bolts. Of course I've personally never played a game where I had to cast 4 Fireblasts, but I thought I'd give it a try. Plus I don't mind having the extra mountain against the Pox and Land players in my local meta.

If anyone has crunched some numbers concerning the ideal number of fetches or total number of lands in Burn, I'd love to hear from you.

[datanaga]

I'm also playing 11/9 land configuration and feel comfortable with it, sometimes flooded sometimes screwed...statistics.

My current list is pretty standard, I only prefer playing 4x searing blaze over 4x flame rift in maindeck in my heavy stoneforge deathrite metagame. 4x vortex maindeck.

What I would like to ask you is how you are playing against delver based tempo decks, are you try to play every or most important spells around daze or just dont care nad race?

[Lyle Hopkins]

I'm also playing 11/9 land configuration and feel comfortable with it, sometimes flooded sometimes screwed...statistics.

My current list is pretty standard, I only prefer playing 4x searing blaze over 4x flame rift in maindeck in my heavy stoneforge deathrite metagame. 4x vortex maindeck.

What I would like to ask you is how you are playing against delver based tempo decks, are you try to play every or most important spells around daze or just dont care nad race?

I saw a list on Star City Games a couple months ago playing main deck Searing Blaze and I think it's a great idea in the right meta.

In regards to playing against tempo decks, I feel it is necessary to play around soft counters and try to grind your opponent out. I used to have quite a bit of trouble with this match-up, but once I started playing a more control style game, I started having far more success. Patrick Sullivan wrote a great article on playing around counter spells that I highly recommend checking out: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27944_Burn-vs-Counters.html

[datanaga]

With Counter/Top being popular again, I was curious as to what everyone might be doing to combat this unfavourable match-up. I've been thinking about dusting off my Vexing Shushers à la 2012 Patrick Sullivan.

Thanks for the answer and for the link to really interesting article. Yesterday i lost to miracles and also start thinking about shushers, btw this is pretty nice list with shushers: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536 only it lack gravehate (but reanimator and dredge is not so popular in my meta), not sure if mindbreak is better than pillar, because skilled storm player will play discard/probe before going off and pillar is maybe also useful against elves (not sure, what is your opinion?)

ANT is played a lot in my meta, Im still not sure if I should try to maximize sb slots against ANT, because it will never be positive mathup even postboard, what do you think?
IMHO some combination of graveyard hate, pyroblasts, pillars/mindbreak and fast clock can work, but G1 is autoloss.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Thanks for the answer and for the link to really interesting article. Yesterday i lost to miracles and also start thinking about shushers, btw this is pretty nice list with shushers: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536 only it lack gravehate (but reanimator and dredge is not so popular in my meta), not sure if mindbreak is better than pillar, because skilled storm player will play discard/probe before going off and pillar is maybe also useful against elves (not sure, what is your opinion?)

ANT is played a lot in my meta, Im still not sure if I should try to maximize sb slots against ANT, because it will never be positive mathup even postboard, what do you think?
IMHO some combination of graveyard hate, pyroblasts, pillars/mindbreak and fast clock can work, but G1 is autoloss.

I don't really like Mindbreak Trap, primarily for the reason you've given. I can see the card being strong in a meta-game with a decent amount of Belcher or All Spells, but for me, I rather play Pyrostatic Pillar.

Concerning Elves, I don't really like bringing Pyrostatic Pillar in against them because Elves can sometimes combo off before you stick it (if you're on the draw) and they always have the ability to simply beat you down too. I've been struggling with this match-up, but having Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard helps. Sometimes keeping a hand with a bunch of creature removal and a Grim Lavamancer can get there, if you're able to keep them off creatures.

[Vlad Teppes]

Go creatureless and put some Glacial chasms.
aggro can't beat it, Merfolk is wasteland or die, elves can't get trough nor can dredge, it prevents the damage you cause on yourself (sulfuric vortex, flame rift and your own Price of progress) and you can sacrifice your glacial chasm to another chasm, never letting the upkeep costs be to high.
Using creatures in burn is too risky, goblin guide and lavamancer are (at least to me) the only creatures that can make the cut (even tough I love Kiln Fiend), most of the time it's just food for your opponent's DR shaman to get some life back

[datanaga]

Go creatureless and put some Glacial chasms.
aggro can't beat it, Merfolk is wasteland or die, elves can't get trough nor can dredge, it prevents the damage you cause on yourself (sulfuric vortex, flame rift and your own Price of progress) and you can sacrifice your glacial chasm to another chasm, never letting the upkeep costs be to high.
Using creatures in burn is too risky, goblin guide and lavamancer are (at least to me) the only creatures that can make the cut (even tough I love Kiln Fiend), most of the time it's just food for your opponent's DR shaman to get some life back

I can not imagine playing Glacial Chasm mainboard, because every wasteland is blow out against you, I can only imagine to sideboard it (exchange with maybe goblin guide?) in some wastelandless aggro matchups from budget reasons (but still prefer ensnaring bridge), imho it worth too much sb space against specific matchups, if aggro is problem for you, try to play searing bloods in sb and blazes main, what do you think about this sb:

3x ensnaring bridge (aggro, rug delver, show and tell)
2x vexing shusher (miracles, uwr, merfolk) or 3x pyroblast (if show and tell is played in your meta)
2x searing blood (elves, goblins, ur delver, death and taxes, deathrite, stoneforge...) in lagecy now there is no */3 toughness creature we are afraid of
2x smash to smithereens (stoneforge decks, chalice of the void)
3x pyrostatic pillar (storm) not sure if help enought vs ANT, maybe cut this for something more usefull (needle, null rod, flame rift)
3x gv hate? (want leyline of the void or leyline of sanctity, because slows down ANT)

I want try to play aintrazi's maindeck from my last post with 21 lands (12/9 higher land count due to sb shushers) and 3x vortex main (or 4x vortex and cut 1x lava spike?)

plan against uwr delver or blue aggro is to play control role with bloods, blazes and lavamancers, when reach six mana drop shusher and bridge in the same turn,
against miracles sculp your hand, reach a lot of mana, drop shusher and kill him from the spot or drop vortex in the same turn

imho null rod is now interesting sb choice against miracles, it stops top/counterbalance shenanigans, explosives, also slows down ANT, invalides vial and jitte, sword of fire and ice, kills afinity etc., good against other random fast decks like painter, metalworker...

maverick is almost dead, so no more artefact/enchantment hate (in form of quasaly pridemage) preboard is good call for us

I think metagame is really good for well builded burn right now,

Could you all please write down your sideboard choices and sb plan in your meta, thanks.

[datanaga]

I don't really like Mindbreak Trap, primarily for the reason you've given. I can see the card being strong in a meta-game with a decent amount of Belcher or All Spells, but for me, I rather play Pyrostatic Pillar.

Concerning Elves, I don't really like bringing Pyrostatic Pillar in against them because Elves can sometimes combo off before you stick it (if you're on the draw) and they always have the ability to simply beat you down too. I've been struggling with this match-up, but having Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard helps. Sometimes keeping a hand with a bunch of creature removal and a Grim Lavamancer can get there, if you're able to keep them off creatures.

Thanks, Your point with pillar and grafdiggers cage seems valid.

[Lyle Hopkins]

imho null rod is now interesting sb choice against miracles, it stops top/counterbalance shenanigans, explosives, also slows down ANT, invalides vial and jitte, sword of fire and ice, kills afinity etc., good against other random fast decks like painter, metalworker...

...Could you all please write down your sideboard choices and sb plan in your meta, thanks.

I've been toying with the idea of running Null Rod for a little while now, but I've never considered using it against the U/W Control match-up. I'm going to have to test this one out myself.

Currently my sideboard looks something like this:

3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyroblast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Grafdigger's Cage

Grafdigger's Cage and Pyrostatic Pillar are the two spots that fluctuate the most. If I don't think I'll be seeing any Elves or Dredge at a tournament I'll usually bring Surgical Extraction instead. I've also been testing Vexing Shusher in the place of Pyrostatic Pillar. I like five three-ofs at the moment because I feel like each card is important and I want to see them as much as possible when I bring them in. Maybe I'll eventually tweak some numbers, but this is where I'm at right now.

[Vlad Teppes]

I can not imagine playing Glacial Chasm mainboard, because every wasteland is blow out against you, I can only imagine to sideboard it (exchange with maybe goblin guide?) in some wastelandless aggro matchups from budget reasons (but still prefer ensnaring bridge), imho it worth too much sb space against specific matchups, if aggro is problem for you, try to play searing bloods in sb and blazes main, what do you think about this sb:

3x ensnaring bridge (aggro, rug delver, show and tell)
2x vexing shusher (miracles, uwr, merfolk) or 3x pyroblast (if show and tell is played in your meta)
2x searing blood (elves, goblins, ur delver, death and taxes, deathrite, stoneforge...) in lagecy now there is no */3 toughness creature we are afraid of
2x smash to smithereens (stoneforge decks, chalice of the void)
3x pyrostatic pillar (storm) not sure if help enought vs ANT, maybe cut this for something more usefull (needle, null rod, flame rift)
3x gv hate? (want leyline of the void or leyline of sanctity, because slows down ANT)

I want try to play aintrazi's maindeck from my last post with 21 lands (12/9 higher land count due to sb shushers) and 3x vortex main (or 4x vortex and cut 1x lava spike?)

plan against uwr delver or blue aggro is to play control role with bloods, blazes and lavamancers, when reach six mana drop shusher and bridge in the same turn,
against miracles sculp your hand, reach a lot of mana, drop shusher and kill him from the spot or drop vortex in the same turn

imho null rod is now interesting sb choice against miracles, it stops top/counterbalance shenanigans, explosives, also slows down ANT, invalides vial and jitte, sword of fire and ice, kills afinity etc., good against other random fast decks like painter, metalworker...

maverick is almost dead, so no more artefact/enchantment hate (in form of quasaly pridemage) preboard is good call for us

I think metagame is really good for well builded burn right now,

Could you all please write down your sideboard choices and sb plan in your meta, thanks.

And how exactly Is wasteland a blowout against us? I like to run some protection main deck, it can at the very least buy us a turn (if they don't have wasteland) , and even if they do waste it you have more food to lavamancer.
Sideboarding with burn is actually not that hard '-'

my sideboard looks like this:

2- Ensaring bridge (I run 1 main deck)
2- Pyroblast
3- Surgical extraction
1- Red elemental blast
1- Tormod's Crypt (The dredge players I face are not using Pithing needle anymore)
3- Smash to smithereens
3- Pyrostatic Pillar

then again, my meta is heavy on creature aggro and tribal, so I'm used to face creature removal and constant pressure, that's why I run 4 glacial chasms and 1 ensaring bridge main deck (and 4 lavamancers as my only creatures)

the good thing in burn right now, is that most cards the opponent uses are downright useless:

Wasteland is only usefull in blowing their own lands to reduce the damage of POP
Counterspells are not that good against us, most of our spells do the same thing (but counterbalance is GG most of the time)
Removal? please, at most burn runs 12 creatures, or even 0, so yeah good luck with that.
Fetchlands, BOB? they make our clock even faster
Not to mention the greedy manabases of legacy, they make our POP downright lethal, doing 8+ damage easily.

the only downside is that we suck against combo decks (pyrostatic pillar can make a difference here, but most combo decks run disruption and/or counterspells)

[LeoCop 90]

Check out Eidolon of the Great Revel !

Bye bye pyrostatic pillar, now you have legs and a 2/2 body!

[Blakroc]

ATM, burn seems like the best place for him.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on Eidolon of the Great Revel. I've been mulling it over a bit and it may end up taking the place of Pyrostatic Pillar in my sideboard. Eidolon serves the exact same purpose as Pillar but with the added benefit of potentially dealing some combat damage. It also can't be targeted by Spell Pierce (not sure how important this is). The only downside I can currently think of is Eidolon's susceptibility to creature removal, but ultimately I don't believe this will be much of a hindrance. Most of the match-ups I bring Pillar in against (e.g. Storm, Show & Tell, etc.) don't have your typical creature removal.

[d0nkey]

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on Eidolon of the Great Revel. I've been mulling it over a bit and it may end up taking the place of Pyrostatic Pillar in my sideboard. Eidolon serves the exact same purpose as Pillar but with the added benefit of potentially dealing some combat damage. It also can't be targeted by Spell Pierce (not sure how important this is). The only downside I can currently think of is Eidolon's susceptibility to creature removal, but ultimately I don't believe this will be much of a hindrance. Most of the match-ups I bring Pillar in against (e.g. Storm, Show & Tell, etc.) don't have your typical creature removal.

He's an enchantment, so any removal they have for enchantments will still be live.

If you already run pillar in the board, this just seems like a no-brainer to me.

[JDK]

He's an enchantment, so any removal they have for enchantments will still be live.
Doesn't really matter, since bounce/Decay hits both anyway. Slaughter Pact could matter, Eidolon can't be Duressed though.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Doesn't really matter, since bounce/Decay hits both anyway. Slaughter Pact could matter, Eidolon can't be Duressed though.

I didn't think about Duress. Good point!

[jmeka]

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on Eidolon of the Great Revel. I've been mulling it over a bit and it may end up taking the place of Pyrostatic Pillar in my sideboard. Eidolon serves the exact same purpose as Pillar but with the added benefit of potentially dealing some combat damage. It also can't be targeted by Spell Pierce (not sure how important this is). The only downside I can currently think of is Eidolon's susceptibility to creature removal, but ultimately I don't believe this will be much of a hindrance. Most of the match-ups I bring Pillar in against (e.g. Storm, Show & Tell, etc.) don't have your typical creature removal.

Definitely throwing away all my Pyrostatic Pillars for this guy. Gotta keep attacking rather than playing do-nothing-sometimes enchantments.

[Justin]

I think that Eidolon goes in the main deck for Burn. Over 90% of the spells cast in Legacy are 3 cc or less. You are essentially doing two damage to your opponent almost everytime he casts a spell, plus you have a 2/2 body that can get in for more damage. The opponent will even take two damage by aiming a removal spell at him.

[AmokPL]

I think that Eidolon goes in the main deck for Burn. Over 90% of the spells cast in Legacy are 3 cc or less. You are essentially doing two damage to your opponent almost everytime he casts a spell, plus you have a 2/2 body that can get in for more damage. The opponent will even take two damage by aiming a removal spell at him.

yeah I'm pretty sure nobody played Pillar maindeck. Ever. You do remember you get hit for EACH of your Burn spells from Eidolon, besides blank 2/2 for RR is rubbish anyway.

only good things about this would be - protection from Duress and Spell Pierce and building devotion (standard only). Might want to replace your sideboard Pillars in ANT and Storm matchups but thats about it.

[Justin]

Right, nobody played Pillar maindeck because it didn't have legs and couldn't beat in for an additional two damage a turn. A 2/2 for 2 is only rubbish if it's a vanilla bear. You need to test Eidolon and see how much damage you get out of this card over the course of a game. You will almost always do at least two damage with it and usually a lot more. It's not even much of a drawback that Eidolon hurts the Burn player, because Burn is set up to win damage races. He will be bad in some matchups, but the drawback won't matter the majority of the time against most of the best decks in this format.

[Captain Hammer]

I've been considering the versatility of each card and how often it will be useful even when drawn in multiples. This just seems like a no-brainer to me...

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast

4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress

8 Mountains
12 Fetches

[Nina]

I think time will show if Eidolon is suited for the main deck or not.
It does indeed it's work against decks like Delver wich are mostly >= CMC 3 as we are, but it eventually opens a window where they can like win the race by double bolting us or something.

I am more interested in a comparison in terms Sideboard applications.
They both get Wiped Away etc, die to Abrupt Decay, Enchantment Removal and have the same effect. Also the manacosts don't make a difference for us.
What makes Eidolon different is for me (Plus and Minus):
- Get's removed by creature removal, most commonly i guess is Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt.
+ Has the potential of delivering additional damage by attacking (tho it doesn't have haste, it's mostly 0 or 2 damage one game)
+ Doesn't get caught by Duress.
I think the combo matchups we like to bring in either of these don't Run Swords or Bolts so that negates Eidolons main downside. But Storm most likely run's Duress somewhere. It think this alone makes Eidolon worth considering.
(If i missed something please tell me)

(I still think you should run a split between a Pillar effect and Mindbreak Trap, to create situations, where they have the wrong protection, meaning they have Duress against Pillar/Eidolon or Wipe Away against Trap.)

...........................

Another thing.
I have gone over my recent sideboards and seen that there are like 5 packages it'd like to run.

The Pyroblast/ Red Elemental Blast Package (4 Cards)
The Show and Tell Package (4 Cards out of Ashen Rider/ Confusion in the Ranks)
The Artifact Hate Package (3 Cards in Smash to Smithereens)
The Strom Hate Package (4 (or 5) Cards: 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Pyrostatic Pillar)
The Graveyard Hate Package (4 Cards out of Fairie Marcabre or Surcial Extraction)


It is apparent that it's only possible to run 4 out of 5 of these.
I'd love to get advice on your suggestions for a completely onknown meta.
edit: (and if you say the first 4 i'd like to know wich one to cut to 3 cards ... problably blast)
(If i know what to expect i of course adjust accordingly)

[HammerAndSickled]

I think the Show and Tell package is just too narrow. First, the hate is too narrow. Both cards are only good against one deck, and even then they're only good against Show and Tell (the card) not even Sneak Attack. Secondly, your Blasts function as Show and Tell hate anyway (you weren't beating a Sneak attack in any case, I suppose). Plus, cards like Vortex are usually main deck and easily Show-able.

[Nina]

I think the Show and Tell package is just too narrow. First, the hate is too narrow. Both cards are only good against one deck, and even then they're only good against Show and Tell (the card) not even Sneak Attack. Secondly, your Blasts function as Show and Tell hate anyway (you weren't beating a Sneak attack in any case, I suppose). Plus, cards like Vortex are usually main deck and easily Show-able.

That's indeed a good point.
We won't win a counter war against Sneak and Show, but Pyroblast's are probalby disruptive enough to buy us the time we need.
(I think burn has in general not many outs to a resolved Sneak Attack, but we try to be faster i guess.)
Thanks.

If you speak about Sulfuric Vortex (wich only affects Griselbrand against SnT) i have them in the main anyway.

Considering your advice i am testing this for now:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain
1 Skullcrack

Sideboard:
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Surgical Extraction

Wish i had room for 5 designated Storm hate cards, but i guess you can easily bring in Pyroblasts as well.

edit: I guess against Counterbalance we hope it get's cast into our Pyroblast without counterbackup...

[Lyle Hopkins]

That's indeed a good point.
We won't win a counter war against Sneak and Show, but Pyroblast's are probalby disruptive enough to buy us the time we need.
(I think burn has in general not many outs to a resolved Sneak Attack, but we try to be faster i guess.)
Thanks.

If you speak about Sulfuric Vortex (wich only affects Griselbrand against SnT) i have them in the main anyway.

Considering your advice i am testing this for now:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain
1 Skullcrack

Sideboard:
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Surgical Extraction

Wish i had room for 5 designated Storm hate cards, but i guess you can easily bring in Pyroblasts as well.

edit: I guess against Counterbalance we hope it get's cast into our Pyroblast without counterbackup...

Against Storm I would bring in some amount of Surgical Extraction as well. I typically bring in 3 Pyroblast, 3 Pyrostatic Pillar, and 3 Surgical Extraction. The ability to disrupt a storm opponent's cantrips can be quite important in a match-up where every little bit helps.

[feline]

I think Burn just made top 8 of Dallas! Joey Lively win's round 7 on cam! If you read this Joey, that was a nice Fireblast finish!

[Captain Hammer]

I've been considering the versatility of each card and how often it will be useful even when drawn in multiples. This just seems like a no-brainer to me...

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast

4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress

8 Mountains
12 Fetches


I figured I should elaborate on my build more. In my experience, Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast and Flame Rift (to a lesser extent) are cards that you rarely want to see multiples of in one game. However, by playing 4 copies of each of those cards, you're guaranteed to see multiples of atleast one if not more of them. Thus, effectively you're playing with one additional dead card per game that would be better served by a burn spell. By switching to 3 copies of each, you're substantially less likely to see multiples of these cards per game and thus you're effectively playing with a higher concentration of burn spells. You're effectively removing on average one dead draw per game.

Eidolon of the Great Revel seems to be a great option to fill out those extra slots. Legacy operates on an extremely low mana curve and a Pyrostatic Pillar that also beats for 2 every turn is amazing effiency for this deck. Even when answered, it manages to deal two damage to your opponents, 2 damage is the absolute minimum it deals if it gets StPed right away, but between it's beatings and it's shocks, it often does so much more. In early tests on MWS, it's dealing for me an average of 6-8 damage per game if plopped down on turn 2, and I've seen it deal as much as 12 damage to an opponent ending the game.

Yes this build is a bit more akin to Sligh than burn, but I think the trade off is well worth it. Going to a more pure burn list that doesn't play any nonhaste creatures vulnerable to an StP the next turn requires that the deck cut Grim Lavamancer, Vexing Devil and Eidolon, all three of which are very efficient and powerful creatures. It also requires replacing them with 10 far less efficient burn spells. I don't feel making that trade off is justified atleast until WoTC prints atleast one additional Lava Spike equivalent.

[LeoCop 90]

List in top 8 plays 2 young pyromancers and 1 satyr firedancer main deck, as well as 4 hellspark elemental. No fetches , no lavamancers. Weird card choices i'd say XD

[Captain Hammer]

Satyr Firedancer seems great for this deck. Flamespeaker makes for pretty appealing card draw in red.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I figured I should elaborate on my build more. In my experience, Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast and Flame Rift (to a lesser extent) are cards that you rarely want to see multiples of in one game. However, by playing 4 copies of each of those cards, you're guaranteed to see multiples of atleast one if not more of them. Thus, effectively you're playing with one additional dead card per game that would be better served by a burn spell. By switching to 3 copies of each, you're substantially less likely to see multiples of these cards per game and thus you're effectively playing with a higher concentration of burn spells. You're effectively removing on average one dead draw per game.

I think whether or not you want to see multiples of Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast, or Flame Rift is very dependent on the match-up.

I still have to test Eidolon of the Great Revel, but I worry that if your opponent sticks a substantial threat (e.g. Batterskull or Tarmogoyf) it might be game over. I'd probably cut Flame Rift entirely if I were to main-deck Eidolon of the Great Revel.

[datanaga]

I think Burn just made top 8 of Dallas! Joey Lively win's round 7 on cam! If you read this Joey, that was a nice Fireblast finish!

Congratulation Joey Lively to nice finish, but I did not understand his sideboarding in round 7, against UWR delver it was strange brought in pillars and surgical extractions, IMHO it was wrong decision and his list is suboptimal, but hellspark elemental is really strong against blue counters.

Another strong finish with burn is here, top 4 (field of 205 players):
http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-legacy/1480-legacy-top-8-tarmageddon-9-padova.html

and again list without fetches and lavamancers, do you think is this "budget" list better in global metagame now?

btw I dont like ashen rider in SB, prefer ensnaring bridge, is way more versatile.

[datanaga]

I think whether or not you want to see multiples of Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast, or Flame Rift is very dependent on the match-up.

I still have to test Eidolon of the Great Revel, but I worry that if your opponent sticks a substantial threat (e.g. Batterskull or Tarmogoyf) it might be game over. I'd probably cut Flame Rift entirely if I were to main-deck Eidolon of the Great Revel.

Why is game over? Eidolon can blocks and dies:)

[Dr Brian Pepper]

Congratulation Joey Lively to nice finish, but I did not understand his sideboarding in round 7, against UWR delver it was strange brought in pillars and surgical extractions, IMHO it was wrong decision and his list is suboptimal, but hellspark elemental is really strong against blue counters.

Another strong finish with burn is here, top 4 (field of 205 players):
http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-legacy/1480-legacy-top-8-tarmageddon-9-padova.html

and again list without fetches and lavamancers, do you think is this "budget" list better in global metagame now?

btw I dont like ashen rider in SB, prefer ensnaring bridge, is way more versatile.



Hello, I am friends with Joey Lively, and the burn deck is actually mine. This was his FIRST Legacy tourney ever, so that might explain the sideboard issues. Still super awesome that he did so well

[Captain Hammer]

His list...

4 Vexing Devil
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide
4 Searing Blood
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt

16 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ashen Rider
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap

I love the list Brian Pepper.


Once Eidolon of the Great Revel sees print, would you think it makes sense to go...

-2 Sulfuric Vortex
-4 Keldon Marauders

+2 Flame Rift
+4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

to speed up the clock?

If you go nonbudget, do you feel Grim Lavamancer would be superior to both Sulfuric Vortex and Flame Rift?

Did he ever regret Vexing Devil, Fireblast or Searing Blood?

[Lyle Hopkins]

Why is game over? Eidolon can blocks and dies:)

Good point. I guess a better example would be True-Name Nemesis. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious. I'll have to start testing Eidolon in the main.

Concerning Sulfuric Vortex, I've tried cutting the card in the past with poor results. This is very meta dependent of course, but the card is strong against Stoneforge decks and control decks (e.g. U/W Miracles), and both are quite popular at the moment.

[FairDecksBoreMe]

Took down another Legacy event tonight with Burn. Took home a foil Brainstorm. Overall tournament record with the deck is now 13-2-1. Using a fairly stock list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Magma Jet

20 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smitereens

Board changes depending on meta obviously. Tonight was Reanimator/Dredge heavy so I boarded Grafdigger's Cage. Ensnaring Bridge was sideboard MVP. Magma Jet keeps trying to trick me into thinking it is actually good.

R1: 2-0 vs Death and Taxes
R2: 2-0 vs RUG Delver
R3: 2-1 vs Deathlade
R4: 2-1 vs Miracles

Probably going to keep jamming this until I finish picking up my Candelabras.

[ghostfire86]

I just took 3rd place in a Legacy Tournament of 19 players 2 weeks ago. Biggest issue was Stoneforge/Batterskull variants. 14 out of 19 were of some Stoneforge build. Every game was a rush for the win but nothing horrid. My worst match up was a UW Stoneforge/Batterskull Control build. To much control to get through before batterskull was dropped.

This was my build at that tournament:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast

2 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
12 Mountain

Side Board
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Match ups were:
Game 1 vs Canadian Thresh GUr 2-1 win me
Game 2 vs Maverick 2-0 win me
Game 3 vs UW StoneBlade 1-2 lose me
Game 4 vs Jund 2-1 win me
Game 5 vs High Tide w/Candlesticks (Agreed to Draw our Match)
Game 6 vs UW StoneBlade (Same one from game 3) 0-2 lose me

After a few changes my current build is:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 Thunderous Wrath

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain

Side Board
4 Skullcrack
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Thunderous Wrath

Main Board:
1 additional burn spell with thunderous wrath with a 1:5 (miracles cost:damage ratio), and 2 additional fetch for Grim Lavamancer on the main board.
Side Board:
I found that Smash to Smithereens is the best at keeping Batterskull on his feet. Skullcrack and Sulfuric Vortex stop the life gain while still insuring damage to your opponent.

My local meta runs around 12-15 Stoneforge decks. So understand the one sidedness of the sideboard.

[AmokPL]

Took down another Legacy event tonight with Burn. Took home a foil Brainstorm. Overall tournament record with the deck is now 13-2-1. Using a fairly stock list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Magma Jet

20 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smitereens

Board changes depending on meta obviously. Tonight was Reanimator/Dredge heavy so I boarded Grafdigger's Cage. Ensnaring Bridge was sideboard MVP. Magma Jet keeps trying to trick me into thinking it is actually good.

R1: 2-0 vs Death and Taxes
R2: 2-0 vs RUG Delver
R3: 2-1 vs Deathlade
R4: 2-1 vs Miracles

Probably going to keep jamming this until I finish picking up my Candelabras.

running almost the same version. I also have a problem with that one empty slot, keep trying different cards but never happy. Why Searing Blood? With so many fetches why not less conditional Searing Blaze?

[ghostfire86]

19 April 2014 Legacy Tournament
33 Players
Game 1 vs Jund 2-0 Win me
Game 2 vs BUG 1-2 Lose me (hand control and early tarmogoyf
Game 3 vs UG Infect Comb 0-2 Lose me (1st time seeing this deck)
Game 4 vs Thopter Foundry 2-0 Win me (In 15th place at this point)
This guy could not except I bet him so we proceeded to play 5 matches, I won 5-0.
Game 5 vs Miracles 2-1 Win me (early counterbalance lock game 2)
Dropped before game 6 for a side draft I was not going to make top 8.

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 thunderous wrath

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain

Side Board
4 skullcrack
1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Deck changes to make:
Main Board Adjustments
-1 thunderous wrath
+1 grim lavamancer

Considering Side Board Adjustments
-1 thunderous wrath
-1 skullcrack
+2 pyroclasm but 2-4 searing boon looks more effective for the needs of my meta.

thunderous wrath seemed good at first however it cost me the game against BUG showing up in my opening hand every time regardless of mull. It also did the same during some of the other matches but didn't kill me on those matches thankfully.

Thinking of adding 2 bloodstained mires or wooded foothill to main board for heavier graveyard play with grim lavamancers.

[Tiago_B.]

2 small local tournments, placed 1st and 4th on different days.

List:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Spark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Volcanic Fallout
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Lightning Burst
1 Magma Jet

19 Mountains

I dont remember some of my SD, it has Grim Lavamancer which i dont fancy (too slow and awkward, sometimes he's really amazing but most of the times he just sucks, plus i dont have fetches), Manic Vandal (Smash to Smithreens is better but i dont have any), Faeri Macabre, dunno what else. The singleton Magma Jet is for testing. No fetches cuz monies.

vs UB Control I win game 1 easily even against his counters, lost g2 due to keeping a terribad hand, then g3 easy win after he mulls to 3 (lol). This guy is really nice but he got hammered all day, even by people he usually wins against.
vs Pod i just had too much pressure for him, except on game 2 where i get mana flooded and he had Kitchen Finks. Price of Progress and Volcanic Fallout were great.
vs UWB Control his deck had almost no basic lands, and consisted on a TON OF COUNTERSPELLS (+16 i think) and removal like swords, o-ring and detention sphere. Game 1 Guide and regular burn spells murder him quickly. G2 i drew all my 4 fireblasts and only 3 lands. He killed me with hexproof critters while sitting on 6 life.
G3 he had no chance, i go nuts with 2x mountain, 2x Goblin Guide, Lava Spike, Price of progress and Fireblast, killed him turn 3.

I win a few boosters. Nothing great on them. Still better than nothing.

Second tournment:

Played vs BW Control (2-1), he won game 1, i go slow and got decimated by a swag, signed foil version of Liliana of the veil, plus he gained life and had o-ring for my vortex. I knew he had leyline of sanctity on sideboard but he never found any on games 2 and 3. G2 i have a decent hand and topdeck a Vortex, he doesnt have o-ring. G3 i go fast and he doesnt really have much of a chance. Thoughtseize isnt that good vs us. This guy is really nice, always a pleasure to play and talk with him.

vs monogreen aggro (1-2)he's on the play, ramps into turn 2 kitchen finks, turn 3 rancor and stomps me with it. G2 i go first, kill him t3. G3 i keep a bad hand and get punished by it, no mana for vortex, plus again he ramps to t2 kitchen finks and then after lands a thragtusk. On all 3 matches i fail to draw a single Volcanic Fallout (had a playset maindeck), which would wipe all his mana dorks, preventing him to cast his bombs. Misplay on my part G3, plus great draws from him. Shouldnt have lost this one, gotta learn from it.

vs UB Control (2-1) I remember this guy from highschool (almost 10 years ago), huge drama about him punching his GF in the middle of the school; Never talked to him before and didnt knew he played mtg.
His deck was weird, i knew he had some combo i actually never saw, also had counterspells and lifegain, plus PW's like Jace and Venser who enabled him small combos by bouncing his own critters that had 'into play' effects.
Anyways who the hell has Timely Reinforcements maindeck on a legacy match????? Then he lands snapcaster and plays it again >_< , plus soon after he has Jace on the board and laughs (like, 'this gonna be easy'). There goes game 1. I boil inside, this nigg4h for real? Its like his deck is made to play against me, but i cant lose to this guy. G2 was hard, he lands a Spellskite and laughs(QQ what else next, Sanctimony?), but i still pulled through in the end (by 1 damage from Marauders, 3x Keldon Marauders was annoying for him).
G3 i honestly thought i was gonna lose. I won only because he misplayed hard. So, he tapped out with 10 life when i had 3 cards on my hand (who the f_ck taps out versus burn with 2xMana Leak on his hand, and a Venser ultimate ready next turn, plus what he played had so much impact i dont even remember what it was lol, serves him right for being so cocky and overconfident) and i play price of progress and double fireblast for 10 damage. He stares at me like 'wtf i lost'. Cya nerd. He was going to topdeck Timely reinforcements next turn.
This was honestly the most stressing round ive ever played, he and his deck were just obnoxious to play against. Not to mention he drew like 9 lands from Goblin Guide over 3 games (another thing he kept laughing about and saying stuff like 'just keep them coming'), only revealing a single nonland card.

Last round was vs UWR midrange (1-2). Its Burn with Snapcaster, a few counters, draw, and helix. I lose game one, lightning helix + snapcaster into helix again is too much. Game 2 i stomped him extremely hard, and he actually played circle of protection: red but it was too late (lol). He also sided out all his counters, which i think is a mistake, but well it worked. Game three was more of game one, plus i drew like 6 lands. Almost killed him, just needed a bit more gas, or maybe a freggin Price of Progress that would hit for 8 or 10. Anyway it was a fun match against a good player, laughed most of the time.


I really need to deal with that pesky lifegain. Im thinking 4x Skullcrack, can anyone tell me if its good? Seems good on paper. Blood Moon would be bonkers if i could get my hands on some. Magma Jet was okay, card filtering is nice. Spark Elemental, i know most people dislike it, but it ALWAYS got in for 3 damage. Really needed those Volcanic Fallout round 2 and Price of progress round 4.

This was not my day, opponents i attacked with Goblin Guide revealed a land almost everytime (except for the last round, same odds then), even during some fun games before the tournment i got steamrolled playing my other decks. Plus lost every game 1 too, trying to catch up everytime is hard. On the last round had to play vs the only guy with 9 points, bad luck, against any of the other guys with 6 points i had much better chances of winning, which would probably have granted me a place on top 3 for prizes.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Been kinda inspired by (surprisingly enough) Spite of Mogis, especially in conjunction with Mogg Maniac. Any ideas how to build such a list though: Burn isn't exactly my expertise.

[ghostfire86]

Grim lavamancer is a great card all around for burn but you need to make sure your deck is built to feed him for a turn two use, this means fetch lands. Yes it makes mirror matches bad for you but he pulls his weight clearing the board, pinging the opponent, or chump blocking. I've like him much more than lightning elemental which is a dead draw past turn 3.

Magma jet I love that it fixes my draw but makes me angry that it does so little damage for the cost.

Sulfuric vortex is a must for any sideboard or mainboard as a minimal of three. I sideboard it myself but that's a different conversation. I've found that to compete against life gain like stoneforge batterskull decks game 2 needs 3 sulfuric vortex 4 smash to smithereens and 3 skullcracks. The squire pisses me off but it's the equipment that is the threat and requires some patients on your part to kill it. Vortex and skullcrack shut down life gain but don't take care of the 4/4. Smash to smithereens takes care of that. This is a two sided strategy to pincer your opponent into dumping batterskull to the grave. This also keeps you doing damage at all times. Most stoneforge decks I've played immediately stop fetching non basic lands once they see your playing burn which hurts your chance to bloodmoon them effectively or get a good price of progress on them. Keep this in mind.

Bloodmoon is a key in burn sideboard As a 3 of. Jund, Thopter foundry, and a few others rely to heavily on non basics. Many of games have been won by dropping bloodmoon just before I burn out to shut them down for a few turns so I can regroup. Many use ensnaring bridge for this but you then have to caste every topdeck you get. Decks like Counterbalance and miracles love these players. Makes you an easy read with no tricks in the bag.

Smash to smithereens is a must 4 of. To many players know that if they can turn one chalice of the void it shuts most of us down. Or they pithing needle our grim lavamancer. This again keeps us to speed while using their defensive as our offensive.

My biggest issue for worst match ups other than burn vs burn are BUG due to fast hand disruption while using deathrite to ping you gain life and mana ramp while dropping goyf to hit you dead and RU Delver which becomes a race of who top decks better so no siding in the 3+ converted mana cost cards (you need speed) and you can't use price of progress effectively against them because they May give you a single volcanic island in play to hit for 2 damage.high tide is another pain deck but if they are playing candle sticks you can slow them with smash to smithereens, if not you have till possibly turn 4-5. After that your dead.

[Dr. No Face]

I run burn mainly when I am at my local fnm, and it pilots very well

**EDIT**
Got some stuff for my list, now it will look more like this:

//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer
//Burn
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
//Lands
19 Mountains

//Sideboard
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ashen Rider


It depends on if the chain lightnings come in soon or not, but this should be the final list. Any comments?

[magicmoron]

Hello everyone! I have followed the thread for awhile and just went to scg Detroit(Novi) and got 39th place out of 225. I will admit that my list is inefficient since I audibled from manaless ichorid on the Saturday before. I don't feel to bad about the outcome since my round 7 opponnet was Alex Finley(Storm combo 8th) and my round 8 opponent was Feline Longmore(High Tide 16th). The list is as follows:

4 x mountains
12 x fetches
4 x badlands
2 x taiga

4 x deathrite shaman
4 x goblin guide
3 x hellspark elemental
1 x young pyromancer

4 x lightning bolt
4 x chain lightning
4 x rift bolt
4 x price of progress
4 x lava spike
3 x fireblast
2 x magma jet
3 x sulfuric vortex

sb:
2 x faerie macabre
3 x smash to smithereens
3 x blood moon
3 x pyrostatic pillar
4 x inquisition of kozilek

Basically, I have lost playing burn to either having not enough resources to play the cards in hand. running out of gas, or to life gain. Deathrite shaman is the tiny planeswalker that addresses all of these issues. He allows us to accellerate out in turn two, allows use to burn our opponent in the same way that grim lavamancer does, and allows use to eat the opponents gas to fuel their own deathrites lifegain along with allowing us to push out sulfuric vortex a turn earlier. I think the sulfuric vortex a turn earlier is the most important aspect of deathrite, our deck suffers from soft counters and having deathrite allows us to pay for those instead of running head long into them(see Sullivan's latest article) without actually having to pay for them. The control player will most likely not cast the soft counter if you have the mana available to pay for it thus allowing us to use one of the deathrite's other abilities. I will concede that having the splashes of color opens the deck to stifle wasteland, however, the deck can work off of one or two lands efficiently especially with an active deathrite which would be the only reason one would have the non basic lands in play unless drawn naturally.

As far as the list is concerned, I found as many have that magma jet is subpar and young pyromancer is too slow. I am on the fence with hellspark elemental, he is good against control and countertop but too slow against combo so he is definitely a flex spot. The sideboard is what was really bad (if you didn't think the main was bad enough), blood moon never came down even if I sided it in which was rare and I found IOK so bad I will never play discard in the side again. The problem I found was that the combo decks that exist now are too resilent to discard. I played IOK game 2 against my round 7 and round 8 opponents twice in the early part of the game and still had very little chance to win. The problem with discard is that it does not advance you towards your endgame. Which is probably why the 8 blast plan has fallen out of favor. I know that thoughtseize is better than IOK but it did not make a difference in either match.

If I was to make changes MD I would drop the two magma jet and put in searing blaze and drop the young pyromancer for the fourth fireblast. I had several matches where the second fireblast would have put me over the top for a win. In the side I think I would add a fourth pyrostatic pillar and drop the four IOK and the three blood moon for I don't know what. If someone cared about where I think the deck should be going is that the combo decks are becoming too resilent to a threat from the sideboard that does not advance our game state. This is why we are using searing blood and searing blaze against agro. I think that eidolon in the main along with pyrostatic in the side is the only way we will be able to beat combo. However, I would like for Sullivan to write an article on how to attack the combo matches, his article on how to handle counter spells was very helpful and should be read several times for every burn player out there.

Thanks for reading, if anyone wants I will post the matchups and what I remember from them.

[Lyle Hopkins]

This is what I'm testing right now:

Probe List:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage

I'm a big fan of Gitaxian Probe and this is my attempt at fitting it into Mono-Red Burn. The card can be quite powerful and it has some synergy with Grim Lavamancer, but I'm still not sure if it merits cutting Flame Rift.

Eidolon List:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Searing Blood
20 Mountain
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage

The second list came about after some discussion on this thread about playing Eidolon of the Great Revel main-deck. I cut fetch lands and Flame Rift with the hope of decreasing self inflicted damage.

The sideboard fluctuates, but these are some of my favourite choices at the moment.

Let me know what ya'll think.

Edit:

Patrick Sullivan just wrote a new article discussing Eidolon of the Great Revel in Legacy. The article also includes a sample deck-list and some further elaboration by Sullivan in the comments section.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28350_Journey-Into-Nyx-Red-Box-Review.html

[scottpou]

Personally, I think Grim is too slow, and Fetch lands take those precious 2-4 life points that a lot of games end on. I also like having enough outs to get around Leyline of Sanctity. Burn is the oldest deck I own, and I use it when I want a quick game of MtG, win or lose. As far as sideboard goes, I hate 3 situations more than anything else. I can take a swift lost to TES, ANT, Tin Fins, etc and I will still keep a smile on my face. However, playing around a Counter-Top Lock or Trinisphere or multiple Chalice of the Void really isn't fun to me because the decks that play those are usually winnable match-ups. I have crafted my sideboard to have solutions for those games that I feel like I could win. To me, it's not worth taking up sideboard slots with silver bullets that don't necessarily guarantee a win.


//CREATURES (12):
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Hellspark Elemental

//SPELLS ():
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast

//ENCHANTMENTS (2):
2 Sulfuric Vortex

//LANDS (18):
18 Mountain

//SIDEBOARD
SB: 4 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Searing Blood
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Shattering Spree

[Zupponn]

Here's something silly:

4x Galvanic Blast
4x Shrapnel Blast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Skullscorch
3x Chain Lightning
2x Thunderous Wrath

4x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Opal
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Shrine of Burning Rage

5x Mountain
4x Great Furnace
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn

I wanted to play around with the idea of "Big Burn" where you try to run as many cards with as high damage to CMC ratios as you can in order to reduce the number of cards required to kill. I don't know if it's better than normal burn, but it might be something to check out.

[Scott]

Has anyone been having success with an Eidolon of the Great Revel build, even if just in local events? I might want to try such a thing, but I haven't played Burn, and I'm not sure how lists with it are shaping up.

[beebles]

Has anyone been having success with an Eidolon of the Great Revel build, even if just in local events? I might want to try such a thing, but I haven't played Burn, and I'm not sure how lists with it are shaping up.

Eidolon is super good. I just played a little tourney and wanted to try it and it was the MVP easily. I never wanted to play burn before because I didn't want to scoop to every combo deck. Now with Eidolon it seems like you should in theory have a chance to win those match ups like Elves and Storm. Against fair decks it is also excellent. It is sort of like thalia, amazing against combo, and not bad at all against fair decks.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidilon


4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blood
4 Fireblast
1 Rift Bolt

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
10 Mountain
1 Taiga

SB
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Karakas
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip

Beat 2 Stoneforge decks, an affinity deck and a Elf deck. I felt bad for the elf guy. Turn 2 Eidilon was game over for him.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I played Patrick Sullivan's most recent list at a 69 person Legacy tournament this past weekend. Here's a quick report:

A.N.T. 1/2 (loss)

Pox 2/1 (win)

Esper 1/1 (draw)

Jund 2/1 (win)

High Tide 1/2 (loss)

Merforlk 2/0 (win)

U/W Control 1/2 (loss)

Overall, I'm quite pleased with the decks performance. My losses came from unfavourable match-ups (Storm, Mono-Blue Combo, Counterbalance), but I was able to force a game three in each situation. It felt like the deck could hang with most competitive Legacy decks, so I'll probably be running this list for some time.

Deck List:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66629

[Scott]

Cool, thanks for the list and info beebles.

[Captain Hammer]

Wizards is printing a one sided flame rift (in Conspiracy), and it happens to be in black.

Tyrant's Choice 1B
Sorcery
Starting with you, each player votes for death or torture. If death gets more votes, each opponent sacrifices a creature. If torture gets more votes or the vote is tied, each opponent loses 4 life.


Between that and two other longtime black burn favorites of mine...



Bump in the Night B
Sorcery
Target opponent loses 3 life.
Flashback 5R

and

Blightning 1BR
Sorcery
Blightning deals 3 damage to target player. That player discards two cards.


a light black splash in burn seems easily justifiable and offers the deck an efficient route to go completely free of creatures altogether simultaneously making opponents creature removal into dead draws and allowing us to ignore cheap fat blockers like Tarmogoyf.

Any other good black burn cards you guys are aware of?

[AmokPL]

you guys prefer Searing Blood over Searing Blaze? Even in fetchfull builds? is it better?

[datanaga]

you guys prefer Searing Blood over Searing Blaze? Even in fetchfull builds? is it better?
with fetchlands blaze is far better than blood, but blood is also very good

on monday I won small tournament with burn, maindeck is same as http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536
sb: 3x ensnaring bridge
4x searing blood
3x vexing shusher
3x smash to smithereens
2x pyroblast

finished 4:0
rounds:

jund 2:0
bug 2:1 (he played suboptimal, but had chance to beat me, had zuran orb in sb wtf?)
merfolk 2:0 (new build with chalice of the void, I sideboarded 15 cards:)
4c delver 2:0 (without white)

MVPs: blazes
bridges

after the tournament we tested matchup burn VS ant - after (eventual) sideboarding
out: 4x price of progress, 4x searing blaze, 3x vortex
in: 4x eidolon, 4x macabre, 3x pyroblast

according to our testing, this matchup it still in ant favour even postboard, after landing eidolon on turn 2, he tutored for empty the warrens and made 10 goblins, he took 8 dmg from eidolon, but my hand wasnt good enought to kill him before gobos run over me, this happend twice, so I am still not sure if I want to waste sideboard slots to help in this matchup or just ignore it and hope for better pairings...what is your experience against ANT?

[iamajellydonut]

Wizards is printing a one sided flame rift (in Conspiracy), and it happens to be in black.

Beat me to it. Between Tyrant's Choice and Bump in the Night, two cards "strictly better" than existing red cards, splashing for black is now legitimate. (though blightning still serves relatively little purpose)

[datanaga]

Beat me to it. Between Tyrant's Choice and Bump in the Night, two cards "strictly better" than existing red cards, splashing for black is now legitimate. (though blightning still serves relatively little purpose)

personally I dont think that splashing black for those 2 cards is legitimate, and blightning is barely legacy playabe:

1. your manabase will be worse, vulnerable to wasteland is big thing, because we want to play around soft counters against delver decks
2. your price of progress will be worse without fireblast, why play Tyrant's Choice over Flame Rift and then takes 2-4 dmg from price? (btw I dont play Rifts in my list actually, it is the worst card)
3. bump is only slightly better than spike

If you want improve your combo matchup, then black splash is legitimate, but you should cut lavamancers for deathrite shamans, acceleration is really great and MD gravehate will improve our matchup against ANT and slightly against dredge, sadly without access to green mana does nothing to reanimator and cant remove dredgers...

[datanaga]

Eidolon is super good. I just played a little tourney and wanted to try it and it was the MVP easily. I never wanted to play burn before because I didn't want to scoop to every combo deck. Now with Eidolon it seems like you should in theory have a chance to win those match ups like Elves and Storm. Against fair decks it is also excellent. It is sort of like thalia, amazing against combo, and not bad at all against fair decks.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidilon


4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blood
4 Fireblast
1 Rift Bolt

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
10 Mountain
1 Taiga

SB
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Karakas
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip

Beat 2 Stoneforge decks, an affinity deck and a Elf deck. I felt bad for the elf guy. Turn 2 Eidilon was game over for him.

thanks for sharing interesting list and results, how you were satisfied with vexing devil in this list?
when you are under eidolon isn't hellspark better?

I agree with this quote:
"Patrick Sullivan · Top Commenter · Game Designer at Stone Blade Entertainment
I would play Vexing Devil in Legacy if I was assured to draw exactly one in my opening hand, then never draw one for the rest of the game. The issue with it is drawing it past the opening seven is almost always horrible.
Reply · 4 · October 9, 2012 at 11:40am"

your taiga and sideboard choices looks bit crazy to me:)
why 3 karakas? against show and tell I prefer ensnaring bridge
against miracles and chalice I prefer shushers over krosan and smash to smithereens over grudge
relic with lavamancers is also not that good...

[beebles]

thanks for sharing interesting list and results, how you were satisfied with vexing devil in this list?
when you are under eidolon isn't hellspark better?

I agree with this quote:
"Patrick Sullivan · Top Commenter · Game Designer at Stone Blade Entertainment
I would play Vexing Devil in Legacy if I was assured to draw exactly one in my opening hand, then never draw one for the rest of the game. The issue with it is drawing it past the opening seven is almost always horrible.
Reply · 4 · October 9, 2012 at 11:40am"

your taiga and sideboard choices looks bit crazy to me:)
why 3 karakas? against show and tell I prefer ensnaring bridge
against miracles and chalice I prefer shushers over krosan and smash to smithereens over grudge
relic with lavamancers is also not that good...

To be honest I didn't actually have any smash to smithereens and the store was sold out so hence the ancient grudge. I loved it though and beat a UWR Delver Stoneblade guy by flashing it back to wipe out both of his equipment after the game went super long. He was very sour about that. Then I got super lucky and got the affinity matchup. Too hard to tell with only 4 matches though. I am going to play a bigger legacy tournament Saturday so I guess I will find out with more of sample size. Plus Taiga is almost worth it just for Krosan Grip which is still the best way out of a counter top lock and can get you out of Leyline hell if you aren't just dead to Emrakul on turn 2.

The SB is crazy but designed to catch people off guard. I don't want to concede a single match up as "unwinnable". The revokers + karakas can totally put Sneak attack in a hard lock. Karakas is pretty much your only out against Iona on Red against reaminator, bridge is fairely worthless in that situation. Bridge is a false sense of secruity, it is never enough. I have never once lost to Burn when playing a Griselbrand deck. Revoker solves a lot of other bad match ups as well as Sneak attack. Storm almost can't go off if you set it to LED. If you can set it to Top you can put Miracles in a bad spot. Can stop high tide's Candelabra.

Vexing Devil was good but it was too small sample size again. Vexing Devil is more or less just bolt bait so you can stick Eidolon and then lock em down. People just sigh and slump over when they have no removal and you drop an Eidolon on them. I sided some of them out against UWR which has like 4 Bolt 3 StP and potentially extra True Names coming in post board.

[Lyle Hopkins]

1. your manabase will be worse, vulnerable to wasteland is big thing, because we want to play around soft counters against delver decks


I agree with datanaga.

P.S.
Thanks for sharing that Sullivan quote concerning Vexing Devil.

[jcsy]

I noticed some people playing Leyline of Sanctity
Splashing seems to be good idea to get rid of this

[beebles]

I noticed some people playing Leyline of Sanctity
Splashing seems to be good idea to get rid of this

Or you can run chaos warp if you are a crazy person who likes to live on the edge. Or just board in more creatures or sulfuric vortexes. While I splash for green, for Grip, the bigger problem is that Leyline is almost exclusively used in bad match ups like Omnitell, show and tell or sometimes Miracles now and then so even if you deal with it, you are still likely dead. Hoping they don't have it might be the best plan.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I finished 3-1 after four rounds of swiss at a small 11 person Legacy tournament yesterday. I was running Patrick Sullivan's list again: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66629

Imperial Painter 2-0 win
Death and Taxes 1-2 loss (punted game one)
BUG Control 2-0 win
Reanimator 2-1 win

Again, the deck performed well and reaffirmed my belief that Burn can hang with the top decks in Legacy. My only loss came from a play mistake in game one of the Death and Taxes match. Reanimator can be a challenging match-up, especially without graveyard hate, but I was fortunate enough to get the win.

[Zoomer3989]

To the people playing Sullivan's newest list:

I brought it to a ten-man local (4 rounds) last weekend and went 4-0, beating Jund, UB Tezzeret, BUG Control, and Canadian Thresh. I ran his exact list, with these two changes:

-2 Mountain,
+2 red fetchlands (so 12/8 fetches to Mountains)

SB:

-2 Searing Blood
+2 Vexing Shusher

It might have just been me wanting Vexing, but I honestly felt that 8 Searing effects overall was overdoing it, especially with only 2 anti-Control cards. I liked Searing Blaze in the main, but I think it might have been worse with the 10/10 land split. Not running Vortex main was surprisingly nice, when I realized how often I boarded it out.

Have people felt like 8 Searing effects are really needed? I just don't think you'd ever be in say, an 8-round event where you played against 6 creature decks. Susher was as useful as ever, whereas I think there's serious diminishing returns to running 8 anti-creature cards.

I had 4x Eidolon in the SB, but I never felt comfortable bringing it in. Jund and BUG Control would not have helped, and the BUG Control list played 4x TNN. The Thresh player was actually a friend I had tested against earlier, and I never really figured out if it helps enough. The fact that we can't destroy Nimble Mongoose, IMO, reaffirms Sullivan's point about why you shouldn't bring it in in tempo matchups.

[Lyle Hopkins]

To the people playing Sullivan's newest list:

I brought it to a ten-man local (4 rounds) last weekend and went 4-0, beating Jund, UB Tezzeret, BUG Control, and Canadian Thresh. I ran his exact list, with these two changes:

-2 Mountain,
+2 red fetchlands (so 12/8 fetches to Mountains)

SB:

-2 Searing Blood
+2 Vexing Shusher

It might have just been me wanting Vexing, but I honestly felt that 8 Searing effects overall was overdoing it, especially with only 2 anti-Control cards. I liked Searing Blaze in the main, but I think it might have been worse with the 10/10 land split. Not running Vortex main was surprisingly nice, when I realized how often I boarded it out.

Have people felt like 8 Searing effects are really needed? I just don't think you'd ever be in say, an 8-round event where you played against 6 creature decks. Susher was as useful as ever, whereas I think there's serious diminishing returns to running 8 anti-creature cards.

I had 4x Eidolon in the SB, but I never felt comfortable bringing it in. Jund and BUG Control would not have helped, and the BUG Control list played 4x TNN. The Thresh player was actually a friend I had tested against earlier, and I never really figured out if it helps enough. The fact that we can't destroy Nimble Mongoose, IMO, reaffirms Sullivan's point about why you shouldn't bring it in in tempo matchups.

I've been running a ratio of 11 fetch lands to 9 mountains and have been happy with it. I haven't tested Sullivan's 10/10 split though, so I can't really compare. I should have mentioned this difference in my earlier posts but I forgot.

Concerning the Searing effects, I've been considering dropping a Searing Blood for a third Sulfuric Vortex in the sideboard, but I wanted to give Sullivan's list substantial testing before I changed too much. I agree with you though. Against RUG Delver with Nimble Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis, sometimes targets can be hard to come by. I do like having the extra removal against Stoneforge Mystic decks like UWR Delver and Death and Taxes. It may be a bit of a meta-game call, but I do like having the option of sideboarding in some amount of Searing Blood in addition to the main-deck Searing Blaze.

P.S.
Congratulations on the 4-0.

[Zoomer3989]

I've been running a ratio of 11 fetch lands to 9 mountains and have been happy with it. I haven't tested Sullivan's 10/10 split though, so I can't really compare. I should have mentioned this difference in my earlier posts but I forgot.

Concerning the Searing effects, I've been considering dropping a Searing Blood for a third Sulfuric Vortex in the sideboard, but I wanted to give Sullivan's list substantial testing before I changed too much. I agree with you though. Against RUG Delver with Nimble Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis, sometimes targets can be hard to come by. I do like having the extra removal against Stoneforge Mystic decks like UWR Delver and Death and Taxes. It may be a bit of a meta-game call, but I do like having the option of sideboarding in some amount of Searing Blood in addition to the main-deck Searing Blaze.

P.S.
Congratulations on the 4-0.

The 2nd paragraph is exactly my thoughts, I think 8 might be excessive and just needs to be slightly tweaked. I would love a 3rd Vortex in the board, but the only card I want to cut is Blood in that case, and I still feel as if Vexing Shusher has some value. Numbers to work around.

I have a feeling that 11/9 might be the mathematically optimal number, though ironically enough I'm basing that entirely on feeling/instinct. I wanted to give Searing Blaze the best chance in the main, plus I didn't have more then 8 matching Mountains. I did feel the crunch on life, but I think with Vortex in the SB, only taking damage from Rift or Eidolon is going to minimize that issue. I never liked running 4x of Flame Rift and Vortex in the main, but they are so strong that I felt they warranted it. Having Vortex in the board makes the main feel a bit better against Goyf and smaller creatures, whereas before it felt like a liability a lot, especially with Rift. Things to really test.

Congrats on bringing Burn to a much bigger event - I would only have had the courage to do that in the last year or so, but as we've seen, Burn is quite a reasonable choice when it can dodge certain matchups. We'll never have a great combo matchup, but Eidolon hopefully helps.

[Palitos]

This is my deck now:

//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

//Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

//Sorcerys
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

//Enchantments
4 Sulfuric Vortex

//Lands
20 Mountain

Sulfuric Vortex + Eidolon of the Great Revel = BRUTAL

You help me with the side plis???

SB: 4 ???????????????? Hate vs cemetery
SB: 4 Searing Blood
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens ??? 3 or 4 ??? :_(



Faerie Macabre
Tormod's Crypt
Grafdigger's Cage
Relic of Progenitus

This is THE CUESTION vs cemetery xDDDD

[Lyle Hopkins]

This is my deck now:

//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

//Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

//Sorcerys
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

//Enchantments
4 Sulfuric Vortex

//Lands
20 Mountain

Sulfuric Vortex + Eidolon of the Great Revel = BRUTAL

You help me with the side plis???

SB: 4 ???????????????? Hate vs cemetery
SB: 4 Searing Blood
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens ??? 3 or 4 ??? :_(



Faerie Macabre
Tormod's Crypt
Grafdigger's Cage
Relic of Progenitus

This is THE CUESTION vs cemetery xDDDD

Figure of Destiny and Eidolon of the Great Revel seem decent together. Concerning graveyard hate, I like running Grafdigger's Cage because it also has play against Elves and Green Sun's Zenith decks.

[Palitos]

Figure of Destiny and Eidolon of the Great Revel seem decent together. Concerning graveyard hate, I like running Grafdigger's Cage because it also has play against Elves and Green Sun's Zenith decks.

Thanks Lyle, I think like.

The trouble is that not how we could protect the Grafdigger's Cage.
And a combination of Grafdigger's + Tormod's ?

[Zoomer3989]

Burn, by Jon Thiel, 14th at SCG: Indy.

Creatures (12)

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

9 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills

Spells (28)

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blood
3 Shattering Spree

I'm not sure I like the lack of Price in the maindeck, or the three Pillars, but I think the rest is ok. I'm still not sure Eidolon in the main is a good idea against Delver or Tarmogoyf decks, especially when you see a lot of those decks and running 6+ Searing effects is validated. Relic of Progenitus is the graveyard hate I would play though, I think it's the best, or if you want 4 slots, a 2-2 split of Relic and Cage.

[datanaga]

Burn, by Jon Thiel, 14th at SCG: Indy.

Creatures (12)

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

9 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills

Spells (28)

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blood
3 Shattering Spree

I'm not sure I like the lack of Price in the maindeck, or the three Pillars, but I think the rest is ok. I'm still not sure Eidolon in the main is a good idea against Delver or Tarmogoyf decks, especially when you see a lot of those decks and running 6+ Searing effects is validated. Relic of Progenitus is the graveyard hate I would play though, I think it's the best, or if you want 4 slots, a 2-2 split of Relic and Cage.

Interesting decklist, I'm happy to see succesful list with eidolon MD, but flame rift over price of progress MD is something I have never considered. I don't like relic of progenitus in SB because of lavamancer, still prefer cage which is good against elves too.

[datanaga]

Thanks Lyle, I think like.

The trouble is that not how we could protect the Grafdigger's Cage.
And a combination of Grafdigger's + Tormod's ?

We dont need protect cage, it purpose is slow them down a bit and win the race.

[Palitos]

We dont need protect cage, it purpose is slow them down a bit and win the race.

I understand...

Only Graftdigger's Cage or combinations? For exemple:

2 Grafdigger's Cage + 2 Relic of Progenitus
2 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' + 2 Surgical Extraction
2 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' + 2 Relic of Progenitus
2 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' + 2 Tomod's Crypt

:cry:

What you think?

[datanaga]

I understand...

Only Graftdigger's Cage or combinations? For exemple:

2 Grafdigger's Cage + 2 Relic of Progenitus
2 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' + 2 Surgical Extraction
2 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' + 2 Relic of Progenitus
2 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' + 2 Tomod's Crypt

:cry:

What you think?

I dont play any grave hate now, because my meta is reanimator and dredge free and I need sb slots for other matchups, beside cage I like tormods and faerie macabre because it can hit on turn 1 (on the draw). I would consider relic only in list without lavamacers, it is cantrip and also good against goyfs, but sometimes too slow against dredge.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Just picked up some beautiful Beta Lightning Bolts. I'm not wild about foil, misprint, altered, or foreign cards, so this is about as "pimp" as my Legacy Burn deck gets.

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t34.0-12/10446358_10152194828242333_956442801_n.jpg?oh=c156e7036db75b8619d0b9ff58297c4c&oe=5393E5A8

I'd love to see what other people are doing to pimp out their Burn decks.

[Tokugawa]

Against many combo decks, Eidolon is matchup itself. Not only storm decks, maybe also the decks with many cantrips.

It works not well against Goyf decks, but other creatures like Figure or Marauders do not work well (if not worse) too.

Almost every player play "greedy" lands configulation here. Personally, I would never bring less than 4 PoP.

[Zoomer3989]

Just picked up some beautiful Beta Lightning Bolts. I'm not wild about foil, misprint, altered, or foreign cards, so this is about as "pimp" as my Legacy Burn deck gets.

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t34.0-12/10446358_10152194828242333_956442801_n.jpg?oh=c156e7036db75b8619d0b9ff58297c4c&oe=5393E5A8

I'd love to see what other people are doing to pimp out their Burn decks.

Did that awhile ago too, worth every penny.

Also, TWO Burn decks in the Top-16 of SCG: Providence. Not a huge fan of the 14th place list, but I love the 16th place list:


Burn
Lou Stefanovic
14th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 6/8/2014

Creatures (11)

4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hellspark Elemental
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

10 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills

Spells (29)

3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
2 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Searing Blaze
4 Smash to Smithereens


Burn
Jamie Syed
16th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 6/8/2014

Creatures (12)

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Spells (28)

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Satyr Firedancer
3 Red Elemental Blast

Not sure if we want that many creatures, particularly Revoker, and I think we still need Ensnaring Bridge in the board. Nevertheless, an impressive performance from both of them.

[Tokugawa]

I prefer the 14th list. Totally missing of vortex in the 75, seems a flaw.

[Zoomer3989]

I prefer the 14th list. Totally missing of vortex in the 75, seems a flaw.

I just don't understand the numbers of the MB in the 14th place list, and the SB in the 16th place. I'd want Vortex in the board in the 16th place with some more Searing effects and some Smashes. I'm not sure why you would ever want to maindeck 1 Hellspark Elemental though. Same with the 2x Flame Rift and 3x VBrotex, with Eidolon mained. I feel like this deck thrives on consistency, and IMO, that's not how you do it.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I feel like this deck thrives on consistency...

I agree with you concerning the importance of consistency in Burn. I believe that without any library manipulation, Burn maintains it's consistency through redundancy and playing a high percentage of spells that are live off the top of your deck. What concerns me about Eidolon of the Great Revel is that against certain match-ups the card may lower the decks consistency. After the second turn, the possibility of the card being a dead draw greatly increases. That being said, it's interesting to see that the last three Burn lists in the top 16 at an SCG Open have been running Eidolon of the Great Revel main deck.

[datanaga]

I also like Jamie Syed´s (16th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 6/8/2014) MD a lot.

His SB is not optimal in my eyes (pyroblast is superior to REB, prefer searing blood over firedancer), but I understand, that with 20 lands he didn't want to play any 3CC spells.

With his MD list (in global meta) I would like to play SB like this:

3x searing blood
3x vexing shusher
3x smash to smithereens
3x grafdigger´s cage
3x ensnaring bridge

Regarding to missing wortex in his 75, Im not sure if we desperately need it.
It is our best card against miracles and decks like monoblack control, but IMHO we are able to beat them without it.

The most common life gain cards are batterskull, jitte and shaman.
Against blue stoneforge decks (UWR delver) we barely resolve wortex due to soft counters and UWR still play wear/tear in SB, IMHO smelt or smash to smithereens is better here. Against nonblue stoneforge decks (Death and taxes etc.) smash to smithereens is also better.
With 7 searing effects we are able to kill every shaman.

[Krimson Viper]

I agree with you concerning the importance of consistency in Burn. I believe that without any library manipulation, Burn maintains it's consistency through redundancy and playing a high percentage of spells that are live off the top of your deck. What concerns me about Eidolon of the Great Revel is that against certain match-ups the card may lower the decks consistency. After the second turn, the possibility of the card being a dead draw greatly increases. That being said, it's interesting to see that the last three Burn lists in the top 16 at an SCG Open have been running Eidolon of the Great Revel main deck.

I run a Burn/RDW list in Modern, so I might not have much room to speak in the Legacy format version of it, but why is Eidolon so bad/dead draw after turn 2? In Modern, I love seen him every turn and even in multiples. Granted, against Storm, you're probably dead if he's not in play by turn 2, but if you have chances to land him after that, you're good to go too.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I run a Burn/RDW list in Modern, so I might not have much room to speak in the Legacy format version of it, but why is Eidolon so bad/dead draw after turn 2? In Modern, I love seen him every turn and even in multiples. Granted, against Storm, you're probably dead if he's not in play by turn 2, but if you have chances to land him after that, you're good to go too.

I'm not saying Eidolon of the Great Revel is always suboptimal after turn two (Like you stated, late is better than never against Combo). Nevertheless, specifically against most creature based strategies, the effectiveness of the card becomes very dependent on the state of the game. Patrick Sullivan elaborates on this idea in one of his recent articles on Star City Games:

"There is almost no question that [Eidolon of the Great Revel] should be in the 75 somewhere. But should it be in the starting 60? A lot of this is a metagame question, but for now I think the answer is no. The Delver matchups (especially RUG) are pretty close, but a Boltable Pillar would make the matchup much worse since these decks are fully capable of getting ahead of you on board (particularly with Tarmogoyf). Even though these decks are filled with cheap spells of their own, they can stop casting spells altogether once they get a presence on the board, and the same thing is not true of Burn. Other creature strategies, such as Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins, share this characteristic with Delver. For that reason I don't think the card can see maindeck play right now given that various Delver strategies are the most likely decks you'll encounter at a large Legacy event"
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28350_Journey-Into-Nyx-Red-Box-Review.html

Of course if your meta-game is combo-centric, I can understand running the card in the main deck. However, with the current popularity of Tempo decks, I'm probably going to keep the card in my sideboard. All this considered, main deck Eidolon of the Great Revel has been putting up results, so at the very least it warrants some testing.

[tsabo_tavoc]

"There is almost no question that [Eidolon of the Great Revel] should be in the 75 somewhere. But should it be in the starting 60? A lot of this is a metagame question, but for now I think the answer is no. The Delver matchups (especially RUG) are pretty close, but a Boltable Pillar would make the matchup much worse since these decks are fully capable of getting ahead of you on board (particularly with Tarmogoyf). Even though these decks are filled with cheap spells of their own, they can stop casting spells altogether once they get a presence on the board, and the same thing is not true of Burn. Other creature strategies, such as Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins, share this characteristic with Delver. For that reason I don't think the card can see maindeck play right now given that various Delver strategies are the most likely decks you'll encounter at a large Legacy event"
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28350_Journey-Into-Nyx-Red-Box-Review.html

Eidolon is able to fog Tarmogoyf for a turn, gaining 4-5 life, or it may be removed before combat to deal 2 damage, just as Keldon Marauder. It is not the best card in creature matchups, but still a card that serves the purpose of the deck and leagues better than Pyrostatic Pillar.

[LeoCop 90]

I actually kind of like eidolon main deck. Even against tempo decks, it's not true that they can stop casting spells altogether if they have a creature on board. Well, it is true if they get the start of turn 1 delver turn 2 goyf and they are on the play. But considering a more common scenario, like the one you described of eidolon staring at a goyf, i think they are forced to do something. If they don't attack and don't cast spells, well , the game is stalled and i think this is better for burn (you can store a lot of burn in hand). If they attack with goyf and don't cast spells, you'll get to swing back with eidolon until you decide to block. You will lose more life than the opponent, but you are happy anyway if eidolon is dealing some damages.

I don't think there are a lot of scenarios in wich eidolon would be totally horrible. He represents what every creature in burn should have : guaranteed damage. At best, he will cause a lot of troubles to opponents; at worst he will deal a couple damages then die wich is fine. Obviously he is not a particularly good topdeck later in the game but this is true for every creature we play. And of course i'm not saying he is fantastic against tempo decks, but he is not so bad even against tempo.

[Tokugawa]

Recent Scg article suggest not to take eidolons maindeck.

Recent Scg result show full 12 eidolons maindeck in 3 top16 decks.

Guess which is more reasonable?

[jmeka]

I 4-0'd a Daily the other day. My list is here (second decklist): http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7167093

I beat 2 Elves decks, a RW Painter deck and a UW Stoneblade deck.

Having played Eidolon of the Great Revel (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eidolon of the Great Revel) maindeck, I can say that that card is quite powerful. Everyone plays cheap spells in legacy, and Pyrostatic Pillar (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pyrostatic Pillar) with legs is pretty decent. It's basically a must-kill that they get Shock (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Shock)'ed for killing. It does get awkward when you have Flame Rift (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flame Rift) in your hand and multiple Pillar effects out, so I can see some lists not running a full set of Flame Rift (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flame Rift)s.

On the subject of Sulfuric Vortex (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sulfuric Vortex), I could probably fit 2 in the sideboard, but I don't know if I really need it. The three main sources of life gain in Legacy are Deathrite Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite Shaman), Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull) and Umezawa's Jitte (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa's Jitte). The artifacts can be solved with Smash to Smithereens (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smash to Smithereens), and Deathrite (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite Shaman) can be killed with any number of burn spells. I'm not saying the effect isn't useful, but I hate drawing multiple Vortexes when all I want is a Bolt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning Bolt).

[datanaga]

On the subject of Sulfuric Vortex (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sulfuric Vortex), I could probably fit 2 in the sideboard, but I don't know if I really need it. The three main sources of life gain in Legacy are Deathrite Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite Shaman), Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull) and Umezawa's Jitte (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa's Jitte). The artifacts can be solved with Smash to Smithereens (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smash to Smithereens), and Deathrite (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite Shaman) can be killed with any number of burn spells. I'm not saying the effect isn't useful, but I hate drawing multiple Vortexes when all I want is a Bolt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning Bolt).

It looks like my words :smile:

[amalek0]

I've been unable to find solid discussion on why shard volley isn't played frequently. I personally like having the better topdeck-bolt odds, and I've found that by not running the fetchlands, I'm more consistently hitting the lands to support playing the shard volleys alongside barbarian ring AND fireblast. Here's the list I'm running for reference:

18 mountain
2 barbarian ring

Creatures:
4 goblin guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the great revel

Bolts:
4 lightning bolt
4 rift bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 shard volley

Other:
4 price of progress
4 fireblast
2 sulfuric vortex

SB:
4x Smash to Smithereens
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Grafdigger's Cage

[datanaga]

I've been unable to find solid discussion on why shard volley isn't played frequently.

1. Delver based tempo decks are frequently played now, stone rain myself is not good way to play around soft counters.

2. Fetchlands version is IMHO better, because can utilize lavamancers and searing blazes, which are way better than shard volley. There is no space for shard volley in this deck.

[HammerAndSickled]

Maybe it's just my metagame, but I couldn't imagine any point in my time playing legacy where Searing blaze was a viable main deck inclusion. Even when I first started playing legacy back in 2010 and Merfolk was a dominant metagame force, I couldn't play such a conditional card and lose to all the combo and control decks. The fact that it's uncastable in all of our worst matchups is such a strong strike against the card. Most decks with creatures are actually favorable matchups, I don't have problems against the various Delver decks, Blade decks, Merfolk, Goblins, etc. the only bad matchups where Searing Blaze is conditionally relevant are Elves (fair point) and Show decks (if they've already got Griselbrand out you're likely not winning.) Price of progress is a different situation because there are very few decks where it's 100% dead, even Miracles has some duals, and casting it as a shock is better than having a Blaze you can't cast.

[datanaga]

The fact that it's uncastable in all of our worst matchups is such a strong strike against the card.

Maybe is only question of metagame, because in my meta, searing blaze is one of the best card in maindeck.

What do you consider as our worst matchups?

Yes, blaze is dead card against any combo (except elves), but so is our whole deck...OK, with eidolon main storm is beatable.

Creatureless heavy control is IMHO better matchup than fast aggro or tempo.

I found that DnT (or maverick) is way harder matchup without searing effects, because we can not ignore their creatures (thalia, mother, stoneforge etc.). We also need to kill shamans, pyromacers, sometimes delvers, painters, welders...

[ShiftyKapree]

I can't believe this deck is starting to see serious tournament play, it brings back a nostalgic feeling haha :laugh: and Eidolon of the great Revel is nutty in this deck

[datanaga]

I would like to ask, which cards are you usually side out in certain matchups?
I still have got a problem to beat UWR delver piloted by competent player.
My maindeck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536
(still considering to cut 3x vortex and 1x mountain MB in favor of 4x eidolon)

My last SB:
3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens
3x ensnaring bridge
4x eidolon
3x vexing shusher

My sb plan against UWR is like this:

OUT:
4x fireblast
4x lava spike

IN:
3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens
3x ensnaring bridge

Im not happy with it, because I sacrifice a lot of speed, my curve is higher and is not easy to play around daze and pierce. I also tried put in shushers, but UWR has a lot of cheap removal which they usually dont side out, only put in 2x wear/tear after G1.

Mini report from last tournament, 14 players, 4 rounds:
Round 1: UWR delver - suboptimal player, I won 2:0
Round 2: Big Zoo, he mis-played his fourth not needed nonbasic, when he was on 3 life with 2 jitte counters equiped on his knight, so I won 2:0 with price
Round 3: UWR delver - competent player, I lost 0:2
Round 4: bUgr delver (0 mongoose, 4x goyf) - won 2:1
----------------------
finished 3:1 (4. place)

[anakyn]

Why none is playing Skullcrack?

It seems better than Flame rift, especially now that Burn plays Eidolon, and easier to cast than Sulfuric vortex.

Getting rid of 3cc spell could also allow Burn list to play 19 lands instead of 20, making room for more damage.

[jmeka]

I would like to ask, which cards are you usually side out in certain matchups?
I still have got a problem to beat UWR delver piloted by competent player.
My maindeck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536
(still considering to cut 3x vortex and 1x mountain MB in favor of 4x eidolon)

My last SB:
3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens
3x ensnaring bridge
4x eidolon
3x vexing shusher

My sb plan against UWR is like this:

OUT:
4x fireblast
4x lava spike

IN:
3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens
3x ensnaring bridge

Im not happy with it, because I sacrifice a lot of speed, my curve is higher and is not easy to play around daze and pierce. I also tried put in shushers, but UWR has a lot of cheap removal which they usually dont side out, only put in 2x wear/tear after G1.

Mini report from last tournament, 14 players, 4 rounds:
Round 1: UWR delver - suboptimal player, I won 2:0
Round 2: Big Zoo, he mis-played his fourth not needed nonbasic, when he was on 3 life with 2 jitte counters equiped on his knight, so I won 2:0 with price
Round 3: UWR delver - competent player, I lost 0:2
Round 4: bUgr delver (0 mongoose, 4x goyf) - won 2:1
----------------------
finished 3:1 (4. place)

I usually cut Flame Rifts vs Delver decks. A lot of the time it comes down to racing and mana efficiency, so I still like Lava Spikes. Also, Searing Blazes aren't particularly awesome, so I shave those. You just want to keep going to the dome, and having a spell that needs two targets vs a deck that has only 8 actual creatures to target makes Blaze somewhat suspect. UWR Delver isn't a fun matchup but definitely winnable. I just usually bring in artifact hate, Bridges and/or Pyroblast effects and hope for the best. I haven't played the match yet with Eidolon, but I imagine he can turn the tide slightly.

[Palitos]

With 4 Searing Blaze and 4 Grim Lavamancer in main is better 12 fetchlands or 10?

[lordofthepit]

Why none is playing Skullcrack?

It seems better than Flame rift, especially now that Burn plays Eidolon, and easier to cast than Sulfuric vortex.

Getting rid of 3cc spell could also allow Burn list to play 19 lands instead of 20, making room for more damage.

I like Skullcrack over Flame Rift right now for the reasons you stated, plus the benefits of instant speed, being able to shut down incidental lifegain (which has gotten much more prevalent in this format), as well as randomly mising a blocking Mother of Runes or True-Name Nemesis. But I suspect many lists are starting to run Searing Blaze or Searing Blood maindeck, which cuts down on the spots available for Flame Rift (in addition to the aforementioned Eidolon).

[datanaga]

With 4 Searing Blaze and 4 Grim Lavamancer in main is better 12 fetchlands or 10?

Not sure, also depends on build (vortex or eidolon main?) and how many lands do you play? I play 12 (9 mountain) because already own them and dont want to be flooded, maybe 11 is correct number.

[Palitos]

Not sure, also depends on build (vortex or eidolon main?) and how many lands do you play? I play 12 (9 mountain) because already own them and dont want to be flooded, maybe 11 is correct number.

This is the deck:

Main

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blood
4 Searing Blaze
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain

Side

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Price of Progress
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens



11 fetchlands and 9 mountains? I like it... but you have to count with 4 Grim Lavamancer and 4 Searing Blaze.

11 - 9
12 - 8
10 - 10 :confused:

[Annie Bot]

Hello all, first time poster here :)

A few pages back people were talking about Tyrant's Choice and Bump in the Night as possible reasons to go RB and many are against it (understandably, mono red /flex). But what if instead of retooling your whole land base and opening yourself up to wasteland you just to go RB instead of that 12 fetch - 8 mountain you ran 12 fetch - 7 mountain - 1 swamp. The times you'd realistically be stuck with the 1 swamp as your only source in opening hand, and after mull'ing, has to be marginal. And proper play-styling wouldn't have that 1 swamp be much of a hindrance. For my personal deck I'd be removing PoP and GG (I hate topdecking him to no end, PoP wiffles 1/2 the time here). Obviously this wouldn't be an across the board change, just an example of keeping the mana curve the same and getting "guaranteed damage".

[Palitos]

Hello all, first time poster here :)

A few pages back people were talking about Tyrant's Choice and Bump in the Night as possible reasons to go RB and many are against it (understandably, mono red /flex). But what if instead of retooling your whole land base and opening yourself up to wasteland you just to go RB instead of that 12 fetch - 8 mountain you ran 12 fetch - 7 mountain - 1 swamp. The times you'd realistically be stuck with the 1 swamp as your only source in opening hand, and after mull'ing, has to be marginal. And proper play-styling wouldn't have that 1 swamp be much of a hindrance. For my personal deck I'd be removing PoP and GG (I hate topdecking him to no end, PoP wiffles 1/2 the time here). Obviously this wouldn't be an across the board change, just an example of keeping the mana curve the same and getting "guaranteed damage".

If I put the black would Deathrite Shaman and nothing more.

4X Goblin Guide
4X Grim Lavamancer
4X Deathrite Shaman

4X Searing Blaze
4X Lightning Bolt
4X Fireblast
2X Price of Progress

4X Lava Spike
4X Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
2X Flame Rift

4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
2X Arid Mesa
1X Scalding Tarn
3X Badlands
7X Mountain

SIDE:

4X Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3X Searing Blood
3X Sulfuric Vortex
2X Price of Progress


And for the record, I just do not like at all.

[Annie Bot]

If I put the black would Deathrite Shaman and nothing more.

4X Goblin Guide
4X Grim Lavamancer
4X Deathrite Shaman

4X Searing Blaze
4X Lightning Bolt
4X Fireblast
2X Price of Progress

4X Lava Spike
4X Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
2X Flame Rift

4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
2X Arid Mesa
1X Scalding Tarn
3X Badlands
7X Mountain

SIDE:

4X Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3X Searing Blood
3X Sulfuric Vortex
2X Price of Progress


And for the record, I just do not like at all.

I mean, as politely as possible I would have to agree - I do not like that list at all either. Using both GL and DR would be massively detrimental. DR > GL is an option that would be available, though I was trying to focus more to the two specific cards mentioned so that we didn't split into a debate of GL vs DR. The 3 badlands opens you up to wasteland, which is why I was saying just do the 1 swamp and 7 mountain instead of badlands.

[Palitos]

I mean, as politely as possible I would have to agree - I do not like that list at all either. Using both GL and DR would be massively detrimental. DR > GL is an option that would be available, though I was trying to focus more to the two specific cards mentioned so that we didn't split into a debate of GL vs DR. The 3 badlands opens you up to wasteland, which is why I was saying just do the 1 swamp and 7 mountain instead of badlands.

In a deck where 96% of the letters are red, all the land should be so red as the Badlands and that can be searched with fetchlands and not distracting at all.

About the DR and GL ... In Eva Green decks nobody complains of Tarmogoyf and DR and Scavenging Ooze. No one on the third floor and do hit one must be smart enough to combine.

Grim Lavamancer and Deathrite Shaman are fully supported in this deck. Another thing is that you know how to use well.

Sorry translations by Google xD

[Annie Bot]

In a deck where 96% of the letters are red, all the land should be so red as the Badlands and that can be searched with fetchlands and not distracting at all.


This is why I shouldn't brew with no sleep. While looking at the side of "can I function with one swamp only in the deck?" I completely overlooked the "can I even find the swamp?". Thank you for bringing this to my attention. As far as the lands I'd use (now) if I wen't RB I'd go 12 fetch, *3* badlands, 1 *taiga*, and *4* mountain for Destructive Revelry post board with greater consistency (at local meta). For serious tournament play though, it appears mono red still reigns.

As far as running both GL and DS I honestly have no math to support running one VS. both, it was simply a knee-jerk reaction to not want all 8 (attempting to improve topdeck odds).

Again, thank you.

[magicmoron]

Hello everyone! I have followed the thread for awhile and went to scg Detroit(Novi) with the following list and got 29th place out of 225. I will admit that my list is inefficient since I audibled from manaless ichorid on the Saturday before. I don't feel to bad about the outcome since my round 7 opponnet was Alex Finley(Storm combo 8th) and my round 8 opponent was Feline Longmore(High Tide 16th). The list is as follows (prior to eidolon):

4 x mountains
10 x fetches
4 x badlands
2 x taiga

4 x deathrite shaman
4 x goblin guide
3 x hellspark elemental
1 x young pyromancer

4 x lightning bolt
4 x chain lightning
4 x rift bolt
4 x price of progress
4 x lava spike
3 x fireblast
2 x magma jet
3 x sulfuric vortex

sb:
2 x faerie macabre
3 x smash to smithereens
3 x blood moon
3 x pyrostatic pillar
4 x inquisition of kozilek

After playing round 7 and 8 against combo I have realized that hand destruction does little against storm when you are playing burn. It does not advance your game state and does not significantly disrupt combo on its own. Most combo decks are able to handle a single and sometimes two discard spells and still go off. For me, I think the deck still wants access to green to side krosan grip since counterbalance has been floating around again, and to be able to activate the deathrite to stop your opponents access to lifegain. Blood moon is worthless and works against price of progress. The changes I have made post reveler are: -3 hellspark element and -1 young pyromancer +4 Reveler; -2 magma jet +2 searing blaze; -1 rift bolt +1 fireblast; sb: -3 smath to smithereens, -3 bloodmooon, -4 iok, +3 ensnaring bridge, +4 krosan grip, +2 searing blaze, +1 faerie macabre. Reveler has been awesome in testing and think red finally got the ability to fit combo. Its not that he is awesome by himself but now we have and 8 cards out plan like the old 8 blast plan but with our endgame advancing as they advance theirs.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Blood moon... works against price of progress.
This statement is incorrect! For reference. (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/277741-bloodmoon-price-of-progress)
If anything, it helps because they cannot waste away their own non-basics or fetch for basics... Still wouldn't recommend it as a sideboard card in Burn though.

Congrats on the finish moron! :laugh:

[magicmoron]

@ace/homebrew:

I understand the ruling and price of progress damage is still triggered by the non basics, blood moon has to come down early to be effective i.e. turn two or three. Therefore, we change what type of lands the opponent plays out which would more than likely not be dumping lands into play that would not help his mana base and just cause more pain from the price of progress. So, I think that they work against each other because one card disincentivises the use of the other.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I split the finals at the Philadelphia weekly this Wednesday. Twenty-seven showed.

8 Mountains
12 red fetch-lands

4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
3 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Fireblast

Sideboard
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Searing Blaze
3 Red Elemental Blast


R1 - Zach, Miracles 1-1-1
Game 3 ended with Zach at 1 life after I landed Sulfuric Vortex through Counter/Top turn 3 of turns. :rolleyes:

R2 - Alex, Landstill 2-1
PoP and REB pulled their weight these games.

R3 - Jesse, Burn 2-1
He was fetchless and without Eidolon.

R4 - Mark, Maverick ID
Mark's a buddy of mine. We struggled with the math for 10 minutes due to all the draws (from all the Miracles) before IDing.

Top 8
R5 - Frank, U/R Delver 2-0
Eidolon is so good. I said I had no interest in splitting top 4. Half of the 4 that remained spazzed out.

R6 - Joe, Jund 2-1
Close games. Hymn is devastating.

It's almost midnight by the time the Burn/Miracles match finishes their third game. The Burn player left before anyone realizes that they went 1-1-1. They didn't realize drawing wasn't an option... *sigh*
I get ~$95 bucks in credit.


I went for more of a Sligh build. Eidolon feels like a lock piece. If the board is favorable and I have more life, it effectively is. Hellspark Elemental is the best card in the deck against Miracles.
I'm pretty happy with the main deck. Not sure on the sideboard.

[AmokPL]

no love for Grim Lavamancer? How is Vexing Devil instead?

[Ace/Homebrew]

no love for Grim Lavamancer? How is Vexing Devil instead?
No Lavamen... I originally had 3 in the Rift Bolt spot but wanted the guaranteed 3 damage and mana diversity (3 CMC).

Devil performed well. He was only allowed to resolve once in later turns when Jund was at 3 life. Otherwise I prioritized it as the first card to play in my hand other than Goblin Guide. Several (2 or 3 I guess) games on the play had the opponent end their first turn at 15 life (Devil and fetch) and their second below 10 (2 more one mana 3 damage spells)!

Again, my strategy was to drop a threat in an empty board and lock it down with Eidolon. Devil was rarely allowed to live to be the huge threat he is, but he helped me immediately get to a favorable life position.

[AmokPL]

No Lavamen... I originally had 3 in the Rift Bolt spot but wanted the guaranteed 3 damage and mana diversity (3 CMC).

Devil performed well. He was only allowed to resolve once in later turns when Jund was at 3 life. Otherwise I prioritized it as the first card to play in my hand other than Goblin Guide. Several (2 or 3 I guess) games on the play had the opponent end their first turn at 15 life (Devil and fetch) and their second below 10 (2 more one mana 3 damage spells)!

Again, my strategy was to drop a threat in an empty board and lock it down with Eidolon. Devil was rarely allowed to live to be the huge threat he is, but he helped me immediately get to a favorable life position.


I took my Burn to London's Dark Challenge yesterday but it performed badly. Lost to UWR Stoneblade and ANT so dropped and decided to spend the rest of the day with my family. There were few SB errors (Eidolon alone will not stop turn 1 or 2 Storm craziness so playset of Traps would be really helpful) but in the end I was really dissapointed with Grim Lavamancer. I have a big sentiment for him but he is slowing us down a lot, not doing anything for a turn which might be crucial. That is why I am eager to try other options being Devil and Hellspark.

[Annie Bot]

I see that ya'll on the source are starting to move more creature heavy and when I took up burn (and MTG) a year or so ago creatures were viewed as the weakest link. I was wondering if this had to do with the shifting meta or more of a personal preference?

EDIT: Congrats to you Ace :)

[lordofthepit]

Your new Legacy Open champion: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69131

[datanaga]

Your new Legacy Open champion: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69131

Sad to watch burn player who doesn't know how stack works doing so well:(
His work with shusher was really terrible.

[lordofthepit]

Sad to watch burn player who don't know how stack work doing so well:(
His work with shusher was really terrible.

You have to activate Shusher before the Counterbalance trigger is revealed, unless you think they're going to miss. In a game where your opponent presents a slow clock and hasn't shown an ability to remove your Shusher, I like the way he activated his Shusher.

[datanaga]

You have to activate Shusher before the Counterbalance trigger is revealed, unless you think they're going to miss. In a game where your opponent presents a slow clock and hasn't shown an ability to remove your Shusher, I like the way he activated his Shusher.

I know that shushers ability have to be activated before counterbalance trigger is revealed.
You are right, I just read final coverage again because I previously overlooked that there was counterbalance in play every time when he activated his shusher.
Sorry Bryant and congratulation to your finish:)

[warfordium]

I'm even sadder that the man is a Chive supporter. he should point his last burn spell at his own shirt.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Congratulations, Bryan Camidge! Bryan's 75 seemed well suited for the meta-game at SCG Las Vegas.

[zulander]

I'm toying with a black/green splash, and I'm pretty sure this is a bit unconventional:

//mana
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

//burnzz
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Tyrant's Choice
4 Bump in the Night
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Searing Blaze

//creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide

//other 1
1 Sylvan Library

[264505]

I'm toying with a black/green splash, and I'm pretty sure this is a bit unconventional:

//mana
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

//burnzz
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Tyrant's Choice
4 Bump in the Night
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Searing Blaze

//creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide

//other 1
1 Sylvan Library


You need to run more fetches. The old modern variant used to run like 9 or 10 to get value off Shaman. I don't think you are going to be able to have B and G when you need it. Also, losing out on PoP is a pretty bad idea in the current meta imho.

[JJ-JKidd]

With the winning SCG list, where do you side in Vexing Shushers? Miracles only? And is Ensaring Bridge an auto-side against all aggro decks, plus Sneak and Show?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Vexing Shushers?
I would only bring them in against decks with Counter/Top. If they are running Daze, you probably don't have the :r: open to activate shusher when they play it against you.

Ensaring Bridge?
Only against decks that can create a huge lethal threat faster than the 4 or 5 turns you need to kill them. Sneak/Show and Dredge are the only ones that come to mind.

Otherwise burning their face is always better than cards that cost mana but don't do damage!

[Zoomer3989]

With the winning SCG list, where do you side in Vexing Shushers? Miracles only? And is Ensaring Bridge an auto-side against all aggro decks, plus Sneak and Show?

I wouldn't bring in Bridge against any deck with Abrupt Decay, because they likely won't remove it - they'll expect Vortexes and will care about Grims. Against other aggro, IMO, yes, though you might not need all 3 or so against Affinity as they might be too slow.

On Shusher, IMO, I agree against Miracles. I also like him versus tempo decks, particularly Merfolk, Thresh, and UWR. Decks with 3-4 Pierces and Daze I think make him worthwhile, and occasionally Blade decks after board with Flusterstorm and more Pierces make him worth it. I've also found myself bringing in Shusher versus combo, if you want to cut Grims and Searing effects and need more cards to bring in - he's not great, but preventing a Force of Will or a sided in Pierce is about as good as Grim will be against blue combo decks.

EDIT: On Shusher and Bridge together - Sometimes playing the game into a point where you can resolve Bridge due to Shusher protecting, like against Merfolk or Thresh, is almost an automatic win - I have done this against Merfolk and Sullivan has done this on camera versus Thresh. It's tricky but it can be worth it, and is the only way to protect against TNN except racing or Smash to Smithereens.

[feline]

Congrats on another trophy for Burn this weekend in Vegas! Though the last time Burn hit first, it was about 2 years ago if I recall correctly. That or I can just go to the first post after I hit enter here.

I think the Pyrostatic Pillar on legs is proving itself lately, burn has been putting out the numbers!

[Lyle Hopkins]

I went 3-1 at a 10 player sanctioned tournament yesterday.

Round 1
Death & Taxes (2-0)

Round 2
Mono-red Imperial Painter (0-2)
I think I made a couple misplays in this match, and I felt like my draws weren't the best. This match-up is usually quite favourable.

Round 3
Jund (2-0)

Round 4
UWR Delver (2-0)

Main Deck:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
9 Mountain
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Searing Blaze
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Searing Blood
2 Vexing Shusher

I decided to try out this main deck Eidolon of the Great Revel thing, seeing as it has been putting up results recently. The card didn't really have too many opportunities to shine during the tournament, but with U/W Control and Storm in the room, I was glad to have them in the main. Furthermore, having Eidolon of the Great Revel in the main deck frees up some sideboard space, which I dig.

[datanaga]

I went 3-1 at a 10 player sanctioned tournament yesterday.

Round 1
Death & Taxes (2-0)

Round 2
Mono-red Imperial Painter (0-2)
I think I made a couple misplays in this match, and I felt like my draws weren't the best. This match-up is usually quite favourable.

Round 3
Jund (2-0)

Round 4
UWR Delver (2-0)

Main Deck:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
9 Mountain
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Searing Blaze
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Searing Blood
2 Vexing Shusher

I decided to try out this main deck Eidolon of the Great Revel thing, seeing as it has been putting up results recently. The card didn't really have too many opportunities to shine during the tournament, but with U/W Control and Storm in the room, I was glad to have them in the main. Furthermore, having Eidolon of the Great Revel in the main deck frees up some sideboard space, which I dig.

I also tried eidolon in maindeck for the fist time and won small tournament (11 players) this Thursday (record 4:0) with exactly same maindeck as you played:), beat UWR miracles (2-1), UWR delver(2-0) and 2x merfolks (2-1). Btw I keep crapy hands against merfolks in g1, but with my sb g2 and g3 is cakewalk (15 cards out and 15 cards in:)
my sideboard was:
3x bridge
3x smash to smith
4x searing blood
2x pyroblast
3x shusher

[paeng4983]

Third after swiss with Burn
Cerberus Open 8
29 June 2014
NG, Sto Domingo, QC
60 players
3rd after 6rds swiss

My MUs
Reanimator 0-2
Rw burn 2-1
Gw mavs 2-1
Esper blade 2-0
Esper blade 2-1
Esper blade 2-0

Top 8: sneaky 0-2

Tournament report: http://www.syntaxassassin.com/mono-r-in-legacy-29-june-2014/

[datanaga]

Third after swiss with Burn
Cerberus Open 8
29 June 2014
NG, Sto Domingo, QC
60 players
3rd after 6rds swiss

My MUs
Reanimator 0-2
Rw burn 2-1
Gw mavs 2-1
Esper blade 2-0
Esper blade 2-1
Esper blade 2-0

Top 8: sneaky 0-2

Tournament report: http://www.syntaxassassin.com/mono-r-in-legacy-29-june-2014/

Congratulation to your finish, but I dont understand why did you side out goblin guides so often? IMHO it is one of the best card in the deck, I personally almost never sided it out.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Congratulation to your finish, but I dont understand why did you side out goblin guides so often? IMHO it is one of the best card in the deck, I personally almost never sided it out.

I've recently started boarding out Goblin Guide as well. My intention is to increase the consistency of my draws, especially in the late game. Of course match-ups where your opponent doesn't play creatures, it's nice to have them, but any deck that can lock up the board state (D&T, Tribal, maybe some Tarmogoyf decks), I like taking them out.

P.S.
Goblin Guide should come out against Lands. The card advantage it gives your opponent is brutal.

[paeng4983]

Congratulation to your finish, but I dont understand why did you side out goblin guides so often? IMHO it is one of the best card in the deck, I personally almost never sided it out.

RE: side boarding out Goblin Guide

I normally do this because I was on the play in most of my game twos. So casting it half turn behind is not a good idea, at least as I see it.

Seering Blaze and Searing Blood were awesome! Never thought the duo are so good in real game.

I really like how his main deck is configured. It really has all the tools in our current meta, well with the exception of Reanimator, Sneaky Show and dredge. So anyone have an idea on how we can maximize our 15 SB slot? Thanks in advance people.

*Cheers*

-Paeng

[datanaga]

I really like how his main deck is configured. It really has all the tools in our current meta, well with the exception of Reanimator, Sneaky Show and dredge. So anyone have an idea on how we can maximize our 15 SB slot? Thanks in advance people.

My maindeck is without vortex, 11 fetch, 4x lavaman, 4x blaze..

current SB for unknown meta:

3x searing blood
2x ensnaring bridge
2x smash to smithereens
3x vexing shusher
2x pyroblast
3x tormods crypt

still try to find card which is good against miracles, ANT, show and tell and also dredge/reanimator:( only pyroblast do some work against all of them...
not sure about crypt, other options are leyline, macabre, surgical, maybe cage but i dont own any cages now...

I would like to know what is your SB in completely unknown meta, thanks.

BTW it is funny how people now blindly copy SCG winner list, in my eyes only 7 fetches is too low, mindbreak traps are too narrow, also blaze is superior to blood and relic is slow as hell and bad together with lavamancers...

[Zombie]

I don't know if it has been said, but these modern Eidolon builds, they, they...

They are actually decks. Burn is a deck now. The end times, they are near.

EDIT: Also I want to build this. Time to scope out those costs maybe?

[Zoomer3989]

I don't know if it has been said, but these modern Eidolon builds, they, they...

They are actually decks. Burn is a deck now. The end times, they are near.

EDIT: Also I want to build this. Time to scope out those costs maybe?

It's about $500-600 to build in paper, with fetchlands and a SB (The expensive cards being Fetchlands, Ensnaring Bridge, Goblin Guide, and Chain Lightning). It's about $300/300 tix on MODO, based on MTGOTraders' website.

[Zoomer3989]

Another Top 8 (Top 4) for Burn this year. It makes me proud to run the red spells.

Burn
Charlie Mitchell
4th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 7/6/2014
Legacy


Creatures (11)

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

12 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn

Spells (29)

2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard

3 Vexing Shusher
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens

[Lyle Hopkins]

Another Top 8 (Top 4) for Burn this year. It makes me proud to run the red spells.

Burn
Charlie Mitchell
4th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 7/6/2014
Legacy


Creatures (11)

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

12 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn

Spells (29)

2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard

3 Vexing Shusher
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens


Congratulations, Charlie Mitchell! Burn is looking pretty good right now.

[Blastoderm]

Congratulations, Charlie Mitchell! Burn is looking pretty good right now.

Isn't searing blood better than searing blaze? I saw a game where he could have won if blaze was blood...to kill stoneforge.

[Darkenslight]

Isn't searing blood better than searing blaze? I saw a game where he could have won if blaze was blood...to kill stoneforge.

Obviously both are somewhat viable, but Blaze can also deal an extra point of damage to a creature - this is mildly relevant with Jitte pumps, for example.

[Zoomer3989]

Obviously both are somewhat viable, but Blaze can also deal an extra point of damage to a creature - this is mildly relevant with Jitte pumps, for example.

It's also relevant againt Tarmogoyf, as a Grim activation plus a Searing Blaze will often kill a Tarmogoyf, and Blaze can deal 3 damage regardless if the creature it targets is destroyed. If you don't own fetches though, Blood is likely better.

[scottpou]

I prefer Searing Blood over Searing Blaze even with fetches. Blood gets around leyline of sanctity where as Blaze does not. Which is relevant to the online/cockatrice meta lately.

[Zoomer3989]

I prefer Searing Blood over Searing Blaze even with fetches. Blood gets around leyline of sanctity where as Blaze does not. Which is relevant to the online/cockatrice meta lately.

I did not realize that about Blood. The question I have to ask though, what matchups are you bringing in Blood against where they would bring in Leyline. I can't think of any decks that want that kind of protection, except maybe D/T and Elves, where bringing in Blood is a good idea.

[scottpou]

I did not realize that about Blood. The question I have to ask though, what matchups are you bringing in Blood against where they would bring in Leyline. I can't think of any decks that want that kind of protection, except maybe D/T and Elves, where bringing in Blood is a good idea.

I actually maindeck Blood because my current (local) meta has more aggro (delver, gobs, elves, stoneforge, d/t, etc) than combo (tes, ant, tin fins, etc.). When playing against High tide/miracles/lands I side out the bloods for pyrostatic pillar and/or more sulfuric vortex. I was just saying that online it has been relevant more than a couple times. Also drawing a searing blaze where you dont have that land drop can really screw you mid/late game like Blastoderm pointed out.

[Zoomer3989]

I actually maindeck Blood because my current (local) meta has more aggro (delver, gobs, elves, stoneforge, d/t, etc) than combo (tes, ant, tin fins, etc.). When playing against High tide/miracles/lands I side out the bloods for pyrostatic pillar and/or more sulfuric vortex. I was just saying that online it has been relevant more than a couple times. Also drawing a searing blaze where you dont have that land drop can really screw you mid/late game like Blastoderm pointed out.

Good Point. I haven't tried Blood in the main over Blaze yet.

How many Pillars do you sideboard? I was thinking of 4x Eidolon main and 2x Pillar in the SB.

[iamajellydonut]

How many Pillars do you sideboard? I was thinking of 4x Eidolon main and 2x Pillar in the SB.

As good as Eidolon is, it being good doesn't make Pyrostatic Pillar good. Eidolon is good in its own right. Pyrostatic Pillar continues to be an inferior choice for anything.

[lordofthepit]

After being on the wrong end of several Miracles vs. Burn matches, as well as admiring the recent success of Burn on the SCG circuit post-Eidolon, I decided to take it out for a spin at some local weeklies.

Sunday:

R1 - Rogue deck built around Grenzo (2-0). I'm not sure this is a competitive deck, since it's got a pretty mediocre clock and regularly eats a ton of damage from Price of Progress.
R2 - Jund (2-0). I was able to sling a bunch of burn spells at his face in G1 before he mounted anything resembling a clock. In game 2, I kept a one lander with Relic of Progenitus, and but I manage to trade a Chain Lightning for a Tarmogoyf using the Relic. I eventually draw my second land after Liliana hits the board and starts taking up, but I'm able to get Price him for 8 with him at 4 life.
R3 - Omnitell (2-1). In G1, he gets stuck on two lands, and my fairly slow hand manages to get there after eating a Flusterstorm. In G2, I have a double Goblin Guide hand that is too slow after he Forces my Eidolon. G3, I am able to resolve Eidolon on Turn 2, and I get there easily, holding back my Chain Lightnings because I had seen Misdirection in G2. I had to cut all my Searing Blazes and several Price of Progresses in this matchup because there were so many dead cards, but I brought in Mindbreak Trap which is super sketchy and would only get there if the opponent had to cantrip to set up Show and Tell.

Monday:

R1 - Miracles (2-0). A turn 1 Goblin Guide gets forced Turn 1, but he is never able to set up Counterbalance, and I get game 1 easily. Game 2, he eventually gets Counterbalance and Top, but I'm able to get him to flip Top to draw Spell Pierce for my Vottex. I then play Price of Progress, forcing him to crack fetchlands to stay alive, and I save the lethal Fireblast in hand for when he tries to cast a different Top several turns later.
R2 - Miracles (2-0). G1, I am on the draw, I throw several Lava Spikes at his face while he has a slow hand, and he casts Vendilion Clique to take away my Searing Blaze. A Goblin Guide gets plowed, but reveals a Spell Snare. I eventually rip into a Price of Progress and an Eidolon, lead with the Eidolon, then cast Price for lethal (he drew a ton of non-basics). G2, I don't have any creatures, but I'm able to whittle down his life total to about 15 before he sticks a naked Counterbalance. I'm holding Price of Progress and three Fireblasts, and I'm drawing a ton of lands, but he has no pressure. We play draw go for a few turns, then I unload a couple burn spells at his face, inducing several Brainstorms on the same turn, with me responding with a different instant each time to mess up his Counterbalance triggers before he reveals for the previous spell. I manage to get a few points of damage in like this, then several turns later, I play a Sulfuric Vortex, which draws another Brainstorm. After he Brainstorms, but before he reveals for Counterbalance, I play a Price of Progress with him having multiple fetchlands in play, forcing him to against shuffle and play another Brainstorm. Counterbalance tags the Price of Progress, and then a blind shuffle reveals a 3-drop for the Vortex, but then I'm able to get him to Force an Eidolon to drop from 9 to 8, then I am able to unleash 3 Fireblasts at his face.
R3 - Team America (2-1). G1, I sling a ton of Lava Spike effects at him before he is able to mount any pressure. A would-be lethal Price of Progress eats a Force of Will, but he's down to 1 life with absolute no pressure, and it's easy to finish him off from there. G2, he leads with a Delver that doesn't flip for like 4 turns, in addition to a Deathrite Shaman. I sling a bunch of Lava Spikes at his face. I respond to a Hymn by playing get him to three, with him having a flipped Delver and two Deathrites representing a three turn clock if I don't crack fetchlands, or a two-turn clock if I crack any. I rip a Grim Lavamancer and play it, and it bites the dust with Golgari Charm, which now gives him a creature to eat with Deathrite. My only out is ripping Price of Progress, or hoping he activates Deathrite with his last open mana at the end of my turn, but neither happen, so we go to game 3. G3, I am able to sling Bolts at his face, before he plays Liliana and starts ticking up; I cast Fireblast in response. He has a 5-power Tarmogoyf representing a 3-turn clock, but I rip Bolt and Price of Progress for the iwn.
R4 - Miracles (1-2). G1, I lose the die roll, but while my Guide gets forced, I'm able to chip away at his life total, as he is unable to find Counterbalance. I land a Sulfuric Vortex with minimal pressure in the form of a Grim Lavamancer, but he races with Vendilion Clique backed up by Karakas. A Bolt effect gets Misdirected at my face, but I'm still able to get there, as I play a Searing Blaze on his Clique with him at 3 life (he can bounce his Clique, but he'd lose to my Lavamancer and Sulfuric Vortex if he's unable to race). G2, I get a pretty nice start and managed to take him down to 4 life with a Vexing Shusher, an Eidolon, and a Grim Lavamancer, but he blindflips Entreat for 3 with me at 12 life. I need to draw a burn spell for the turn, but I rip Mountain instead. Since we were playing for fun after agreeing to a prize split, I missed that I could have attacked for 2 to force him to block with an Angel, which I could then shoot down with Lavamancer to survive for one more turn, but he apparently had a counterspell anyway. One burn spell was Misdirected at me, and I believe a second may have been directed at another creature. G3, I am able to take a commanding lead with a Vexing Shusher and Eidolon, but an early Lava Spike gets misdirected at me, and a Chain Lightning gets misdirected at Shusher. I then rip lands for 6 turns in a row and lose to a Snapcaster plus Venser.

I think Burn has a reputation of being a deck that doesn't require much skill since it's very cheap to build at the general principles are straightforward, so it's a popular deck for newer players, but there is a lot of subtlety involved with sequencing. It's also become quite competitive with the printing of new cards. I think it's actually a blast to play (as long as you don't get hated out with cards like Leyline of Sanctity), and it's a card I would seriously consider in the current metagame, even though I have the ability to build pretty much anything in this format (including decks that require obscure cards like Candelabras, Tabernacles, Grim Tutor, and Imperial Recruiters). Some Legacy players might be stubborn and elitist in their attitudes to this deck, but when they sit across from you, they are just as vulnerable as anyone else to getting Lava Spiked.

[Ace/Homebrew]

After being on the wrong end of several Miracles vs. Burn matches, as well as admiring the recent success of Burn on the SCG circuit post-Eidolon, I decided to take it out for a spin at some local weeklies.

Nicely done! :laugh:
Thanks for the reports.

[Kael]

After being on the wrong end of several Miracles vs. Burn matches, as well as admiring the recent success of Burn on the SCG circuit post-Eidolon, I decided to take it out for a spin at some local weeklies.

Good to know the deck's been working out well for you! I hope other people start realizing that Burn is a legitimate deck choice like you have, not just a budget option.

I'm normally just a lurker around here, but I got 9th at SCG:Portland with the deck, and I ran 3 Searing Blaze main and 3 Searing Blood side with 0 fetchlands. I'm definitely a fan of Blaze over Blood, largely for the reason that Zoomer gave - being able to convert it into a Lava Spike against Goyfs, Stalkers, and pro-red dudes is a huge deal. I definitely ran into a few situations where it would have been nice to have fetches with the Blazes (particularly against DnT) but I think it's still better than Blood without them.

[lordofthepit]

Good to know the deck's been working out well for you! I hope other people start realizing that Burn is a legitimate deck choice like you have, not just a budget option.

I'm normally just a lurker around here, but I got 9th at SCG:Portland with the deck

What Kael is too nice to mention is that he's the gentleman who beat me in my win-and-in. :laugh:

[PhyrexianPossum]

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
//Enchantment (2)
2 Sulfuric Vortex
//Enchantment Creature (4)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
//Instant (15)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Blood
//Sorcery (12)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
//Land (20)
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Blood
3 Skullcrack
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Tormod's Crypt


Deck! Went 4-3-2 with this at SCG Portland- not super well, but I'm not the best player. :P

I want to make room for 3 Hellspark Elemental. Thinking of taking out a Fireblast, a Price of Progress, and maybe a Rift Bolt. Any thoughts?

Also, I think my sideboard sucks. Please help? :)

[Ace/Homebrew]

I want to make room for 3 Hellspark Elemental. Thinking of taking out a Fireblast, a Price of Progress, and maybe a Rift Bolt. Any thoughts?

Also, I think my sideboard sucks. Please help? :)

Those are the changes I would make too! Hellspark Elemental is extremely good against Miracles. If your meta is full of that, I would fit him in.

For your sideboard, Skullcrack appears to be the weak spot.
I would go:

- 3 Skullcrack
+1 Sulfuric Vortex
+1 Smash to Smithereens
+1 Searing Blaze/Blood

Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Umezawa's Jitte, and Batterskull are all devastating for us and all are artifacts. I would max out the artifact hate to a full 4 slots.

[Megadeus]

My only question is, how do you draw with burn? Twice?

[PhyrexianPossum]

My only question is, how do you draw with burn? Twice?
Once against MUD with two Chalices, second against a weird mono-blue stalling deck.

I actually really like Skullcrack just because life gain is so backbreaking- but I'll test.

So, new sideboard is-


4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Searing Blood
1 Sulfuric Vortex


Is this okay?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Is this okay?
Your deck, so it's your call. :wink:
Also, welcome to TheSource!

Here's my thought process:

You're going to win a few match ups just because you go over the top of their strategy (Jund) or are more efficient at what you do (U/R Delver).
You are going to lose a few match ups no matter what unless you draw relevant hate (Reanimator, Sneak + Show).
There there are a few matches where some minor tweaks are hugely helpful (D+T, Elves).

You pretty much lose outright to Reanimator, Chalice of the Void @ 1, and Trinisphere. So the main focus is there.


4 Tormod's Crypt are needed to fight Reanimator and to a certain extent, Dredge. Faerie Macabre is another good option.
4 Smash to Smithereens for the reasons I stated before. Also very good against any SFM strategy.
3 Red Elemental Blast is pretty much your only out to a Show and Tell... The key to REB is leaving :r: open instead of using it to immediately burn their face. I'm still figuring out what matches REB is best in. I WANT to board it in against Miracles, but if Counter/Top is already online, then REB isn't going to do much for me... :rolleyes:
3 Searing Blood helps against the midrange decks to kill creatures without losing focus on their face.
Sulfuric Vortex I recommended because I think you should run 3, but didn't necessarily see a blatant weak spot in your list. This could just as easily be another Searing Blood or REB.


The difference between Skullcrack and cards like Smash to Smithereens and Sulfuric Vortex is stopping life-gain once, or permanently. A good player can play around Skullcrack like we play around Daze.

[PhyrexianPossum]

Alright, this looks good- but now with a third Vortex in the 75, I think 21 lands might need a warrant. Is this overkill?

[Tokugawa]

Hellspark elemental is an obvious food for DRS. So it is obsoleted in recent lists.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Is this overkill?
I run 20 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25772-Primer-Deck-Burn&p=818657&viewfull=1#post818657) with 3 Vortex main and have not had issues. :smile:


Hellspark elemental is an obvious food for DRS. So it is obsoleted in recent years.
Searing Blaze and Searing Blood support the opposite argument. Besides, most of the deck says 3 damage to target. Meta card is good in correct meta. Very strong against Miracles.

[carlitines]

Because of the successfull of burn deck, I saw in the sideboard of Combo Elves this card: Empyrial Archangel instead of Worldspine wurm (junk and black monocolor are weak in the last GPs).
How can we beat this card or the Natural order?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Grafdigger's Cage

[Kael]

What Kael is too nice to mention is that he's the gentleman who beat me in my win-and-in. :laugh:

Shhhhhhh....



Because of the successfull of burn deck, I saw in the sideboard of Combo Elves this card: Empyrial Archangel instead of Worldspine Wurm (junk and black monocolor are weak in the last GPs).
How can we beat this card or the Natural order?


I've seen Elderscale Wurm here and there as well, similar concept. I think if we start boarding cards for one specific sideboard card in one specific matchup that don't assist with our gameplan, the deck will suffer as a result. Cards like Relic of Progenitus cantrip at least, and Ensnaring Bridge straight up wins the game if it resolves. Grafdigger's Cage stops NO, sure, but it doesn't help us kill them, and it doesn't stop them from Glimpse chaining or just straight up beating us down with green men.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think if we start boarding cards for one specific sideboard card in one specific matchup that don't assist with our gameplan, the deck will suffer as a result.
I agree! But Cage was the answer the the question that was asked. :tongue:
It is possible but very difficult for Elves to generate :4::g::w::w::u: to hardcast her.


Cards like Relic of Progenitus cantrip at least, and Ensnaring Bridge straight up wins the game if it resolves. Grafdigger's Cage stops NO, sure, but it doesn't help us kill them, and it doesn't stop them from Glimpse chaining or just straight up beating us down with green men.
All true statements!
But, Relic costs :2: to cantrip/activate versus :1: for Cage.
Cage also stops GSZ and hurts Dredge, Snapcaster, etc., etc.
Tormod's Crypt is my grave hate of choice right now, but Cage is definitely better than Relic in Burn.
And yes, they can glimpse and puke out dudes, but Eidolon makes them pay for it!

[Darkenslight]

I agree! But Cage was the answer the the question that was asked. :tongue:
It is possible but very difficult for Elves to generate :4::g::w::w::u: to hardcast her.

You might want to read Natural Order again.



All true statements!
But, Relic costs :2: to cantrip/activate versus :1: for Cage.
Cage also stops GSZ and hurts Dredge, Snapcaster, etc., etc.
Tormod's Crypt is my grave hate of choice right now, but Cage is definitely better than Relic in Burn.
And yes, they can glimpse and puke out dudes, but Eidolon makes them pay for it!

That sounds about right. One of the big things that Burn has over other decks is that it's almost entirely mana-efficient. The onyl things you can't cast with 2 mana are Vortex and, well, that's about it.

[datanaga]

You might want to read Natural Order again.
Do not understand your point, Grafdiggers Cage stops Natural Order.

[Darkenslight]

Do not understand your point, Grafdiggers Cage stops Natural Order.

Well, crap. I thought I was responding to a different point. Apologies.

[PhyrexianPossum]

Also note that Grafdigger's Cage shuts off our fetch lands.

I like Tormod's Crypt because it also shrinks Tarmogoyf while still shutting of graveyard strategies.

And we have enough burn to outright kill Empyrial Archangel with two or three spells, less with PoP.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Also note that Grafdigger's Cage shuts off our fetch lands.
4/15/2013 - The second ability doesn't stop players from playing land cards from graveyards or libraries since lands aren't cast.

I have found Tormod's Crypt ineffectual against Tarmogoyf... After activation, Goyf is still probably a 4/5 (Artifact, Instant, Sorcery, Land) just from your graveyard.

[jrw1985]

I've been playing Goblins forever now and have thought about adding some Eidolons to either the sideboard or maindeck. Since Burn has been running it consistently now I thought you'd be the ones to ask this to. How has Eidolon affected the combo matchup? The Storm matchup in particular? Is he a Must Answer card, or is he a card they can often play through?

[iamajellydonut]

I've been playing Goblins forever now and have thought about adding some Eidolons to either the sideboard or maindeck. Since Burn has been running it consistently now I thought you'd be the ones to ask this to. How has Eidolon affected the combo matchup? The Storm matchup in particular? Is he a Must Answer card, or is he a card they can often play through?

Pyrostatic Pillar has sucked for a really long time against combo. If you'd ever consider running Eidolon, run it because it's generally a really good card. If you expect it to stomp combo, you will be just as disappointed now as you were eight years ago with non-Extended Pyrostatic Pillar.

[jrw1985]

Pyrostatic Pillar has sucked for a really long time against combo. If you'd ever consider running Eidolon, run it because it's generally a really good card. If you expect it to stomp combo, you will be just as disappointed now as you were eight years ago with non-Extended Pyrostatic Pillar.

Thank you for slapping the stupid out of me.

[datanaga]

I'm sad, that we have to speak about bad card choices (relic of progenitus, 7 fetchlands, of course searing blaze is better than searing blood with fetchlands) instead of deeper conversation. It seems that burn is for newcomers or for people not involved in the legacy format:(
What about eidolon on the draw? I find myself sideboarding it out against almost everything playing creatures (not against decks playing too few creatures like UWR delver).

[iamajellydonut]

It seems that burn is for newcomers or for people not involved in the legacy format:(

Aaand?

[Kring]

Eidolon is a storm hate card that is very very good against most of the field. It does not win the game by itself, nope sorry. Its a card that paired with others, help you win the game. If you have 2 on the field against anyone, you probably just won.

I keep eidolon against creature decks. Even if you dont attack with him, netting 8 life, while defending against a horde of creatures is underrated.

[Darkenslight]

Eidolon is a storm hate card that is very very good against most of the field. It does not win the game by itself, nope sorry. Its a card that paired with others, help you win the game. If you have 2 on the field against anyone, you probably just won.

I keep eidolon against creature decks. Even if you dont attack with him, netting 8 life, while defending against a horde of creatures is underrated.

This i part of why Eidolon is a much better card than the card it's based on - it can not only get in for additional damage, but he's somewhat decent against BS decks as a side-effect. I guess the card he's most like is Price of Progress - he's good for additional reach and can easily hit that magic spot of 3 damage per mana spent, and occasionally does a lot more (see, for example, Elves! - they can't go off or pseudo-Harmonize with Visionary, as each cast Shocks them.

[Justin]

Eidolon has made a huge difference in this deck. I remember when the card was first spoiled, I said on this thread that it belongs in the maindeck, but nobody agreed with me at the time. I think its value is pretty clear now.

[Kring]

Eidolon has made a huge difference in this deck. I remember when the card was first spoiled, I said on this thread that it belongs in the maindeck, but nobody agreed with me at the time. I think its value is pretty clear now.

It made me play this deck again, thats for sure. This deck can only be better with new prints, and not necessarily with a better bolt, its with cards like eidolon!

[paeng4983]

Anyone here played this deck for the past week?

[ironclad8690]

I played a few games this morning. Beat shardless bug, ub dark depths, and miracles. The die roll is huge in the miracles matchup. What are you guys playing in the flex slots?

I had 3 searing blaze 3 PoP and 2 sulfuric vortex. I was playing 4 eidolons, lavamancers, and goblin guides.

[ironclad8690]

I'm sad, that we have to speak about bad card choices (relic of progenitus, 7 fetchlands, of course searing blaze is better than searing blood with fetchlands) instead of deeper conversation. It seems that burn is for newcomers or for people not involved in the legacy format:(
What about eidolon on the draw? I find myself sideboarding it out against almost everything playing creatures (not against decks playing too few creatures like UWR delver).

What are you bringing in that is better?

[Kring]

I played a few games this morning. Beat shardless bug, ub dark depths, and miracles. The die roll is huge in the miracles matchup. What are you guys playing in the flex slots?

I had 3 searing blaze 3 PoP and 2 sulfuric vortex. I was playing 4 eidolons, lavamancers, and goblin guides.

Im playing the same. I think it isn't about what you have in game 1, but how fast you kill them with your bolts, and if they have a countertop assembled, having different casting cost burn spells in hand.
I have a "shaving numbers" approach when sideboarding, that might have won me some games alone. For example, price of progress. Everyone knows miracles is 3 colours, but only uses like 5 non basics, not thinking about the fetches. So, for me, instead of taking off all prices, i keep 2, or 1. I never loose value like this, i think. And thats the approach i think it should be done in matchups like miracles. Oh and burn to the dome people!

[datanaga]

What are you bringing in that is better?

Depends on matchup, but usually searing bloods, pyroblasts, bridges against merfolks etc.

no vortex main, 4x blaze, 4x lavamancer (heavy delver and merfolk meta)

my last sb:

3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens
3x bridge
2x pyroblast
2x vortex
3x shusher

[AmokPL]

Eidolon has made a huge difference in this deck. I remember when the card was first spoiled, I said on this thread that it belongs in the maindeck, but nobody agreed with me at the time. I think its value is pretty clear now.

that might have been me :D and I confirm after testing it is a solid maindeck card.

question - what would be the minimum number of fetches to run Searing Blaze. My mate is putting it together (for modern) and I know the more the better but would 4 be enough or in that case better to replace them with Bloods?

[Kael]

question - what would be the minimum number of fetches to run Searing Blaze. My mate is putting it together (for modern) and I know the more the better but would 4 be enough or in that case better to replace them with Bloods?

I've been playing the deck with 3 MB Blaze and 0 fetches and it works just fine. The more you play, the more likely you are to be in a situation in which you can capitalize on being able to trigger landfall at a time other than during one of your mainphases. Blood is just bad mainboard IMO, too high of a chance of being a dead card.

[iamajellydonut]

I've been playing the deck with 3 MB Blaze and 0 fetches and it works just fine. The more you play, the more likely you are to be in a situation in which you can capitalize on being able to trigger landfall at a time other than during one of your mainphases. Blood is just bad mainboard IMO, too high of a chance of being a dead card.

This is something of a rhetorical question, but what does Searing Blaze destroy that Searing Blood doesn't?

[ironclad8690]

This is something of a rhetorical question, but what does Searing Blaze destroy that Searing Blood doesn't?

Serra Avenger, Painter's Servant, Lodestone Golem unconditionally.

Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, Merfolk with 2 Lords out conditionally.

Pretty rare cases, but still important to have IMO.

[scottpou]

Serra Avenger, Painter's Servant, Lodestone Golem unconditionally.

Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, Merfolk with 2 Lords out conditionally.

Pretty rare cases, but still important to have IMO.

Against MUD (lodestone) and Imperial Painter (Servant) I am bringing in 4 full smash to smithereens for blood/blaze. Now, serra avenger is in Death & Taxes and in that matchup blood or blaze has more important targets (imo).

[iamajellydonut]

Pretty rare cases, but still important to have IMO.

As I said, my question was rhetorical. And the most important function of Searing Blaze, though your response did technically answer my question, is that it's still an Incinerate should the Tarmogoyf be too big, the Mother of Runes give it protection, their Karakas bounce the target, etc. Provided they have the creature and you have the land, Searing Blaze is always damage to the dome whereas Searing Blood can sometimes fall short.

That being said, again, my question was rhetorical. And the point I was trying to make with my question was that both are extremely conditional. For example, and probably the most realistic example cited so far... What if you don't have a land? The people who don't consider this are the same people that believe Delver starts as a 3/2 and can never whiff. Getting stuck on "no more land" is an extremely realistic possibility, and frankly one that's pretty decent for Burn.

So, for an example, a realistic example, you've got two land online and no more in hand. You do your thing, pass the turn. They do their thing and drop a Stoneforge Mystic that searches for Batterskull. Your turn again and you're still stuck on two land. How does Searing Blaze help you now? Out of a hand of any combination of Eidolon, Goblin Guide, Fireblast, Lava Spike, Price of Progress, Rift Bolt, and/or Sulfuric Vortex, with one Searing Blaze, how do you stop that Batterskull from dropping and swinging the life totals? Hell, at that point, without wasting your lands on Fireblast, you can't even prevent the Batterskull from attacking you at least once. But don't worry, Searing Blood's chance of being a dead card is way too huge.

Both are reliable and utterly unreliable in equally shitty-but-I-need-you amounts, and no matter which you choose it's a "fine" choice. But to make that choice on a whim is gross ignorance.

[wooboy11]

As I said, my question was rhetorical. And the most important function of Searing Blaze, though your response did technically answer my question, is that it's still an Incinerate should the Tarmogoyf be too big, the Mother of Runes give it protection, their Karakas bounce the target, etc.

Both are reliable and utterly unreliable in equally shitty-but-I-need-you amounts, and no matter which you choose it's a "fine" choice. But to make that choice on a whim is gross ignorance.

I think if the creature is color protected or bounced, the damage won't go to its owner, since the creature can't be targeted, so the spell is countered.

I am still testing things out, but theoretically the situations in which you need to destroy a target the most are generally answered by Searing Blood (Stoneforge, DRS, MoR): things you can't let them untap with. At the moment, I'm splitting 2/2.

[GoblinZ]

Do you guys side out eidolon against Dnt ?

[lordofthepit]

Do you guys side out eidolon against Dnt ?

I haven't played this matchup much, but I imagine you probably want to board Eidolons out against an Aether Vial deck, particularly on the draw. I expect you'd want to bring in all copies of Smash to Smithereens and Searing Blood, and Eidolon is the easiest cut. I'd probably consider Ensnaring Bridge before Eidolon in this matchup too, although I'm not sure it's actually worth bringing in.

[Darkenslight]

...That's a point - how useful is Volcanic Fallout in the side? Is that useful in an Elves/D&T meta?

[datanaga]

Do you guys side out eidolon against Dnt ?

Yes, you should have much better cards to put in. Against vial deck eidolon is pretty weak no matter on play or draw.

out:
4x price of progress
4x eidolon

in:
3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens (more is better)
3x ensnaring bridge

[datanaga]

...That's a point - how useful is Volcanic Fallout in the side? Is that useful in an Elves/D&T meta?

It is useful but not needed, you should beat both decks without it (with blazes & bloods & lavamancers)
I would consider Volcanic Fallout as SB option only in heavy Young Pyromancer meta...

[iamajellydonut]

I'd probably consider Ensnaring Bridge before Eidolon in this matchup too, although I'm not sure it's actually worth bringing in.

It's worth bringing in in the sense that if they don't have a way to remove Ensnaring Bridge, most will only have Mangara, you win the game.


I think if the creature is color protected or bounced, the damage won't go to its owner, since the creature can't be targeted, so the spell is countered.

Since Searing Blaze targets both the creature and the player, it won't be countered if only one target isn't legal.

[feline]

This deck is borderline pushing Deck to Beat again. That hasn't happened in like 2 years. Hopefully the next update for June Decks to Beat will be completed soon as it's about that time of the month.

[Kael]

Yes, you should have much better cards to put in. Against vial deck eidolon is pretty weak no matter on play or draw.

out:
4x price of progress
4x eidolon

in:
3x searing blood
2x smash to smithereens (more is better)
3x ensnaring bridge

Bridge is awful against DnT, don't side it in. With Thalia and Port, even managing to cast Flame Rift is a challenge - I got destroyed by DnT at the SCG without him ever drawing SFM because of a Port + Thalia + Vial on the play. Even if you manage to cast it, they can still Flick it easily and either kill you or put themselves out of reach with a Jitte/Batterskull swing. You can also get stuck with too many cards in hand under their resource denial and get hit anyways, although that's less likely.

Keep Price of Progress in. They might be a mono-colored deck, but more than half their lands aren't even basics, and they don't have as many opportunities to Waste themselves in response due to wanting to pressure the board as much as possible. Their lands are constantly used to either cast more threats or Port your lands. Also, being an instant against a Port deck is a pretty big deal. It's your worst card after Eidolon in the matchup, but it's still better than Bridge, and it's still not useless.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Do you guys side out eidolon against Dnt ?

Recently I've been having success with bringing in Searing Blood, Sulfuric Vortex, Smash to Smithereens, and Ensnaring Bridge. I typically cut Eidolon of the Great Revel, Goblin Guide, and Price of Progress. The number of copies for each of my sideboard cards fluctuates depending on the current meta-game, so I've listed the cards from what I feel is the most important to board in/board out, to the least important. This isn't hard-and-fast, but this system is what I find to be most convenient right now.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Been working on a sort of Deathrite Burn list for a friend, and would like some help with it, especially for a sideboard.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Faithless Looting
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice
4 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

[Lyle Hopkins]

Been working on a sort of Deathrite Burn list for a friend, and would like some help with it, especially for a sideboard.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Faithless Looting
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice
4 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

If I wanted to splash black, I would probably include some discard spells in the sideboard.

Carsten Kotter posted an interesting list with no creatures earlier this year. Though, I can understand wanting to play Deathrite Shaman.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68690

[LeoCop 90]

Went to a 40 people event today. I'm not sharing list or anything because it was quite uneventful ... i lost to combo decks and had close games with Jund, Bug, Patriot ending up 3-3.

Round 2 , i am on the play and opponent starts with a leyline of sanctity ... what the fuck? I'm quite pissed ,after losing round 1 to reanimator, to face someone who plays leyline of sanctity main deck. Except for the fact that immediately after he also slams down a leyline of anticipation and a leyline of the meek. At this point i have no idea what is happening, and since he does nothing for 2 turns i start beating down with goblin guide and eidolon. On his turn 3, he plays a Serra's Sanctum and casts Opalescence .... and i get beat down by 4/4 leylines. Anyway, i manage to kill his leyline of sanctity with 2 burn spells (best feeling ever, burning out the bastard leyline), and win the first game in a close race. Games 2 and 3 are not even fun because he has both times a perfect hand with 3-4 leylines attacking on turn 2. I just needed a bit more time to land a bridge since, as he said after , he had no answer to that.
So after this loss i was already out of top8 but at least i have an epic game to remember XD i never faced or read about this deck and i don't think i'll face it anymore ... plus, i burned a leyline of sanctity !!!

[Lyle Hopkins]

Went to a 40 people event today. I'm not sharing list or anything because it was quite uneventful ... i lost to combo decks and had close games with Jund, Bug, Patriot ending up 3-3.

Round 2 , i am on the play and opponent starts with a leyline of sanctity ... what the fuck? I'm quite pissed ,after losing round 1 to reanimator, to face someone who plays leyline of sanctity main deck. Except for the fact that immediately after he also slams down a leyline of anticipation and a leyline of the meek. At this point i have no idea what is happening, and since he does nothing for 2 turns i start beating down with goblin guide and eidolon. On his turn 3, he plays a Serra's Sanctum and casts Opalescence .... and i get beat down by 4/4 leylines. Anyway, i manage to kill his leyline of sanctity with 2 burn spells (best feeling ever, burning out the bastard leyline), and win the first game in a close race. Games 2 and 3 are not even fun because he has both times a perfect hand with 3-4 leylines attacking on turn 2. I just needed a bit more time to land a bridge since, as he said after , he had no answer to that.
So after this loss i was already out of top8 but at least i have an epic game to remember XD i never faced or read about this deck and i don't think i'll face it anymore ... plus, i burned a leyline of sanctity !!!

The dreaded Leyline Deck Wins!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/181134-leyline-deck-wins

I would have fallen out of my chair after a main deck Leyline of Sanctity. Thanks for sharing your story. Thankfully I've never had to play against that deck.

[Duker99]

sorry new to legacy... What do you guys think about Vexing Shushers in the sideboard... has anyone play-tested it?

[Blastoderm]

sorry new to legacy... What do you guys think about Vexing Shushers in the sideboard... has anyone play-tested it?

You need them vs miracles.

[Lyle Hopkins]

sorry new to legacy... What do you guys think about Vexing Shushers in the sideboard... has anyone play-tested it?

I've had success using Vexing Shusher to combat Counterbalance. I've never really brought the card in against other decks though.

[xieyun006]

Is there any other hate for Miracles? I can't think of anything worth while especially once countertop is set up. I don't think shusher is a very good sideboard card, but with miracles running around it actually seems decent.

[Kael]

Is there any other hate for Miracles? I can't think of anything worth while especially once countertop is set up. I don't think shusher is a very good sideboard card, but with miracles running around it actually seems decent.

Shusher isn't a great sideboard card in terms of flexibility, but it really is phenomenal against Miracles. You could try REB, but there really isn't much you need to counter that's blue, and trying to fight counterwars with Miracles is generally a losing cause anyways. With Eidolon maindeck, the matchup is fairly decent - I'd argue that it's in our favor. Shusher pushes it over the top, but it's not necessary.

[Darklingske]

With Eidolon maindeck, the matchup is fairly decent - I'd argue that it's in our favor. Shusher pushes it over the top, but it's not necessary.

Yesterday I tested against Miracles and it didn't feel favoured for us at all. Preboard is a counter-top-lock GG and that was almost every time the case on T3. Postboard it gets better, but even then it still was very lopsided towards Miracles. He just kept his StP for Shusher and once Jace lands the fatesealing starts and you have to hurry to find a Susher, enough lands AND spells. And without manipulation that is very awkward to accomplice.

[LeoCop 90]

Man, the countertop lock doesn't always happen on turn 3. Either he was extremely lucky or was cheating. If you are on the play you can beat a countertop lock anyway... if on the draw it becomes much more difficult. Matchup feels slightly favorable for burn to me.