[Primer/Deck] Burn

[Kael]

Man, the countertop lock doesn't always happen on turn 3. Either he was extremely lucky or was cheating. If you are on the play you can beat a countertop lock anyway... if on the draw it becomes much more difficult. Matchup feels slightly favorable for burn to me.

I agree, the only games I've consistently lost to Miracles are the ones with a fast top + CB lock on the draw. The lock isn't the end of the world either, as long as you're sequencing your spells correctly. Casting Chain Lightning/Lava Spike in the early turns over Rift Bolt, for example. Rift is a lot stronger post counterbalance, as it's hard to counter at 3. Also, sandbagging your instants to drop them all at the same time, hopefully after they dedicate mana to a Jace or an Entreat or something.

[Zombie]

Can anyone explain why people are so ridiculously averse to double bolting Goyfs vs. decks like RUG? I get that it's card disadvantage, but when you have actual beaters on board you can force through with that and generally get from a bad board to an even or advantaged board. Just seems odd when the deck actually has beaters now.

[LeoCop 90]

Who is so adverse in double bolting goyfs ?
Generally you are losing if you waste 2 burn spells on a creature, but if you have guide and revel in play is fine to clear away a blocker.... you are trading 6 damages (double bolt) for 4 damages + the possibility of attacking again the next turn, which is totally ok. Of course this is not always the best play, because if you have 2 creatures and they have a goyf, that goyf must stay on defense, so if you have enough burn in hand just wait a couple turns and then unload everything to their face.

[echofish]

There is also a risk that they counter the second bolt.

[Lyle Hopkins]

It seems to me that Burn has become successful enough that we as a community don't feel compelled to comment on every top 8 finish. Congratulations, everyone!

[Ace/Homebrew]

It seems to me that Burn has become successful enough that we as a community don't feel compelled to comment on every top 8 finish. Congratulations, everyone!

Burn
Alex Johnson
8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 8/10/2014

Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)
20 Mountain

Spells (32)
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
3 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard (15)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens


Nothing innovative or unusual. Build is likely fetchless due to budgetary constraints (pilot is 17).
Congrats Alex!

[Blastoderm]

Why always searing blaze over searing blood? Blood has been performing better than blaze for me. I play 3 blood main, 1 blood and 2 blaze sb.

[Zoomer3989]

Why always searing blaze over searing blood? Blood has been performing better than blaze for me. I play 3 blood main, 1 blood and 2 blaze sb.

Blaze will always do the 3 to the dome as it has two targets, and is slightly better verus tribal, Painter, and D/T. Blaze also allows you to trade it plus a Grim activation for a Tarmogoyf.

[iamajellydonut]

Why always searing blaze over searing blood? Blood has been performing better than blaze for me. I play 3 blood main, 1 blood and 2 blaze sb.

I made a post about this a few pages back. Nothing has changed in the meta since, so I'm literally going to copy and paste it. Basically it boils down to Searing Blaze being better when blind and not wanting to use sideboard slots on spot removal.




As I said, my question was rhetorical. And the most important function of Searing Blaze, though your response did technically answer my question, is that it's still an Incinerate should the Tarmogoyf be too big, the Mother of Runes give it protection, their Karakas bounce the target, etc. Provided they have the creature and you have the land, Searing Blaze is always damage to the dome whereas Searing Blood can sometimes fall short.

That being said, again, my question was rhetorical. And the point I was trying to make with my question was that both are extremely conditional. For example, and probably the most realistic example cited so far... What if you don't have a land? The people who don't consider this are the same people that believe Delver starts as a 3/2 and can never whiff. Getting stuck on "no more land" is an extremely realistic possibility, and frankly one that's pretty decent for Burn.

So, for an example, a realistic example, you've got two land online and no more in hand. You do your thing, pass the turn. They do their thing and drop a Stoneforge Mystic that searches for Batterskull. Your turn again and you're still stuck on two land. How does Searing Blaze help you now? Out of a hand of any combination of Eidolon, Goblin Guide, Fireblast, Lava Spike, Price of Progress, Rift Bolt, and/or Sulfuric Vortex, with one Searing Blaze, how do you stop that Batterskull from dropping and swinging the life totals? Hell, at that point, without wasting your lands on Fireblast, you can't even prevent the Batterskull from attacking you at least once. But don't worry, Searing Blood's chance of being a dead card is way too huge.

Both are reliable and utterly unreliable in equally shitty-but-I-need-you amounts, and no matter which you choose it's a "fine" choice. But to make that choice on a whim is gross ignorance.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Burn
Alex Johnson
8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 8/10/2014

Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)
20 Mountain

Spells (32)
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
3 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard (15)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens


Nothing innovative or unusual. Build is likely fetchless due to budgetary constraints (pilot is 17).
Congrats Alex!
Thanks for sharing. I hope you didn't interpret my post as sarcastic, because I was being sincere. I remember getting excited when Burn was anywhere in the top 64, but now top 16 and top 8 finishes are quite common.

[Nina]

Burn
Alex Johnson
8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 8/10/2014

Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)
20 Mountain

Spells (32)
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
3 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard (15)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens




Great that the fetchless build also can get reasonable finishes. Compared to Brainstorm or 3+ color decks the gain of using fetchlands in Burn boils down to be able to support 4 Grim Lavamancers (that is an advantage don't get me wrong).
I am interested in your peoples opinion on what is the best possible burn 60 without fetchlands.
In detail i am interested in if there is any creature that is good enough besides Eidolon and Guide, if you should run any Barbarian Rings, how many Sulfuric Vortexes main are reasonable etc.

[Ace/Homebrew]

No worries Lyle! I read your message as it was intended. :smile:
I actually hadn't paid attention to this weekends SCG results until I saw your post.

[Annie Bot]

I am interested in your peoples opinion on what is the best possible burn 60 without fetchlands. In detail i am interested in if there is any creature that is good enough besides Eidolon and Guide, if you should run any Barbarian Rings, how many Sulfuric Vortexes main are reasonable etc.

I have to disagree with replacing Grim Lavamancer with Eidolon of the Great Reveal. Theory being with 12 creatures 8 of which being high priority I believe you'd be more likely to get one of the two to stay on board if they are in a position where they'd have to choose one or the other (most likely Eidolon, saving your more "guaranteed" sustained dmg). Also that replacing Grim with Eidolon means you're taking the 8 sustained to 4 (or 6 if you still run 2 SV). Lastly that running both Eidolon and Flame Rift means you're throwing a lot of potential dmg in your direction making the board state control you've gained less worthwhile. In short, I replaced SV with Eidolon and FR with Searing Blaze to deal with troublesome creatures. If however the goal is to become creatureless and avoid the above issue, why not just run Pyrostatic Pillar > Ediolon, SV > Grim, and FR > Goblin Guide?

No, I still wouldn't run BR because even though PoP is more of a control card than a finisher since they will play around it or wasteland their own land in response to it I wouldn't want to risk adding any cards that can potentially burn me twice (the card itself and w/ PoP) in addition to the volatile Eidolon.

I currently run Charlie Mitchell's last top 4 list with the exception of -2 SV for +1 Grim +1 Searing Blaze (mostly because I don't like odd numbers, ocd issue that has nothing to do w gameplay). Though I have been considering 8 fetch 10 mountain to make room for SV, just haven't done the numbers on how likely you'd be to have that 3rd land drop T3. The list can be found here: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14119&iddeck=103906 ( and I will delete this if we're not suppose to post outside links ).

Onto a fetchless burn, I don't really see it changing much of anything besides saving you $400 and running Searing Blood instead of Searing Blaze. GL will still be a play when you need it, just not as often as you'd like to see it. The community can correct me if I was wrong on this point.

As for SB:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Shattering Spree

For an unknown metagame, but possible replacements for a known metagame being:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Smash to Smithereens

I use Surgical > Faerie or Tormod or etc in unknown meta because of TinFins and All Spells in tandem with MT. I prefer SS > StS in unknown meta's because replicate (the 3 dmg from StS isn't worth it if I can't win because I couldn't replicate).

[Zoomer3989]

I have to disagree with replacing Grim Lavamancer with Eidolon of the Great Reveal. Theory being with 12 creatures 8 of which being high priority I believe you'd be more likely to get one of the two to stay on board if they are in a position where they'd have to choose one or the other (most likely Eidolon, saving your more "guaranteed" sustained dmg). Also that replacing Grim with Eidolon means you're taking the 8 sustained to 4 (or 6 if you still run 2 SV). Lastly that running both Eidolon and Flame Rift means you're throwing a lot of potential dmg in your direction making the board state control you've gained less worthwhile. In short, I replaced SV with Eidolon and FR with Searing Blaze to deal with troublesome creatures. If however the goal is to become creatureless and avoid the above issue, why not just run Pyrostatic Pillar > Ediolon, SV > Grim, and FR > Goblin Guide?

No, I still wouldn't run BR because even though PoP is more of a control card than a finisher since they will play around it or wasteland their own land in response to it I wouldn't want to risk adding any cards that can potentially burn me twice (the card itself and w/ PoP) in addition to the volatile Eidolon.

I currently run Charlie Mitchell's last top 4 list with the exception of -2 SV for +1 Grim +1 Searing Blaze (mostly because I don't like odd numbers, ocd issue that has nothing to do w gameplay). Though I have been considering 8 fetch 10 mountain to make room for SV, just haven't done the numbers on how likely you'd be to have that 3rd land drop T3. The list can be found here: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14119&iddeck=103906 ( and I will delete this if we're not suppose to post outside links ).

Onto a fetchless burn, I don't really see it changing much of anything besides saving you $400 and running Searing Blood instead of Searing Blaze. GL will still be a play when you need it, just not as often as you'd like to see it. The community can correct me if I was wrong on this point.

As for SB:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Shattering Spree

For an unknown metagame, but possible replacements for a known metagame being:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Smash to Smithereens

I use Surgical > Faerie or Tormod or etc in unknown meta because of TinFins and All Spells in tandem with MT. I prefer SS > StS in unknown meta's because replicate (the 3 dmg from StS isn't worth it if I can't win because I couldn't replicate).

How did running the 3 Cage's feel? I've been eschewing graveyard hate for awhile, but I'm not sure if that's right.

So I'm likely playing this deck for GP NJ. List is as follows:


Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)
8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills

Spells (28)
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard (15)
2 Searing Blood
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ensnaring Bridge

SB notes:
2 Pyrostatic Pillar is there to act as Eidolon 5-6 so that I have a high chance of starting off with one in combo matchups. This feels like the most applicable card and powerful card here, as opposed to Blast effects. I wouldn't mind cutting these, but I want something decent and powerful against combo, and I don't like the Blast effects or Mindbreak Trap are strong enough.

3 Shusher/Vortex: I like having lots of cards for the Miracles matchup, as I'll almost certainly be rusty against it, and I expect it to show up more often then we'd think, as it's been doing well on the SCG circuit and this is an East Coast GP. Shusher is also good against the Delver decks and Merfolk IMO, and helps allow for games where resolving Bridge can win a match by itself.

2 Searing Blood: I wish I could play 4 in the SB, but there's nothing I really want to cut, except maybe one of the 6 anti-Miracles cards.

2 Smash to Smithereens: Anti equipment and TNN, I feel like you should always have a couple just to answer Jitte/Batterskull.

3 Ensnaring Bridge. Might be less useful with Eidolon, but I feel like it helps in a lot of random matchups where they simply can't answer it, and you can bring it in against a lot of decks, except ones with Abrupt Decay.

Does anyone think there might be value in all 8 Searing effects between the 75? Something I'd like to consider.

[Lyle Hopkins]

How did running the 3 Cage's feel? I've been eschewing graveyard hate for awhile, but I'm not sure if that's right.

I haven't been playing graveyard hate for a little while either, but I would most likely bring three or four copies of Grafdigger's Cage to a larger tournament. I like Grafdigger's Cage over other alternatives because the card is also quite effective against Elves.

In your situation, I would probably cut the copies of Pyrostatic Pillar and maybe think about reducing the number of Vexing Shushers (it depends on how prevalent you think U/W will be, but this is probably the most specific card in your sideboard).

Concerning Searing Blood, I've played four copies in my sideboard for a bit and it can be quite powerful. It's a meta-game call, but a large percentage of decks in Legacy depend on creatures to function, and Searing Blood in conjunction with the abundance of spot removal that Burn already has can be very effective. At least this has been my experience.

If I were going to an SCG event tomorrow, I would probably bring a sideboard similar to this:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Searing Blood
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Smash to Smithereens


P.S.
I run the exact same main deck as you with the exception of one less fetch land and one more Mountain. Best of luck!

[Cire]

This is a stupid thought - and feel free to ignore it but I feel that burn is an excellent place for Treasure Cruise

7U
Sorcery
Delve
Draw 3.

The idea is that you only really need to run one volcanic island and one copy of this card. It sucks in multiples and is dead the first two turns, but thanks to fetchlands and the amount of cards you dump in your grave - it might function as a Ancestral Recall, helping you win in the mid game (turn 3-5). I don't know if it's worth it - but theoretically you are only replacing 2 cards in the deck, 1 of which is a mountain with a volcanic island and another business spell for this. On the other hand, I don't think you can play lavamancers and play this effectively.

[paeng4983]

I feel that burn is an excellent place for Treasure Cruise
Adding a singleton Volcanic island just for this is not, I think, a brilliant thing to do in this deck.
^_^ What we need is firepower. A card that can win us games.

[Lyle Hopkins]

What's everyone's opinion on this (http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/monasteryswiftspear.html)?

[iamajellydonut]

What's everyone's opinion on this (http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/monasteryswiftspear.html)?

It's very good, but it's far better in UR where you'd be constantly and reliably cantripping via Probes and Brainstorms.

[Gaudy]

Hi every one, i need a advice with one match up in particularly, can you help me with "show and tell", i have done many thing, i used use angel or archon, bridge, reb and so on, but i cant get a good position to this match up. is there a particular hand you need?

thank

[paeng4983]

Hi every one, i need a advice with one match up in particularly, can you help me with "show and tell", i have done many thing, i used use angel or archon, bridge, reb and so on, but i cant get a good position to this match up. is there a particular hand you need?

thank

Well, we really cannot do anything much to improve our chances against our bad MUs, Sneaky Show and Reanimator. Bridges together with hope and pray that they wont get get bouncer are my side boards. ^_^

[Lormador]

Hi every one, i need a advice with one match up in particularly, can you help me with "show and tell", i have done many thing, i used use angel or archon, bridge, reb and so on, but i cant get a good position to this match up. is there a particular hand you need?

thank

Both of these decks are bad matchups, first of all, so don't expect too much. That said, there are a few things you can do.

1. Ensnaring Bridge has some virtue of being able to come in against both of these decks, as well as others, buy that flexibility isn't free. The card is not very effective. It will buy you a variable amount of time against Sneaky Show, and doesn't do much against a lot of Reanimator creatures even if you get to resolve it. The worst Reanimator target, Iona, cares nothing for the bridge.

2. Blasts can help, but here again you're on thin ice. The best thing to counter, in my opinion, is the setup spells, those Brainstorms and Ponders. The killer Show and Tell, when it comes, is going to be defended. Of course the problem with this is that you've got to have mana open, slowing the clock and obviating the entire point of the deck. It's hard to Blast one's way to a blowout.

3. Sulfuric Vortex should stay in. Dropping this off of a SnT against a Griselbrand can leave you with chances in a damage race.

Those are the flexible cards that a lot of players keep around, myself included. Strategy #1 is right here, the plan of having some SB cards that at least might do something, but come in against a lot of other decks, and hope to dodge these.



In my opinion, though, stronger and more specific hate is actually required should you wish to actually have a positive matchup.

4. Graveyard hate: if you want to beat Reanimator, you really want a Faerie Macabre just because it's uncounterable. Now, they can still Thoughtseize it. Tormod's Crypt is harder to catch with discard, but it is vulnerable to countermagic. Pick your poison. I like the faerie. Unfortunately, this won't solve all your problems, as Reanimator packs Show and Tell.

5. Dedicated Show and Tell hate: you mentioned Angel. I suppose you meant Angel of Despair, and though most people use Ashen Rider (since it's better), Vindicangel is old-school and I like her. Don't skimp. You need three. Iona, Guardian of Emeria deserves honorable mention here. The problem is that 3 slots devoted to this specific problem is 20% of the board space devoted to 1.5 decks, raising their percentage by just a little bit. Also, be careful not to cackle like Mr. Burns when the unlikely happens and you actually open with an Angel in your grip against SnT. They'll put you on the Angel and go for Sneak Attack.

These are pretty awful matchups, but in my view they aren't the worst. Omnitell is the worst. It has nearly the same clock, straight basic lands to dodge PoP, no need to pass the turn when it goes off, and Leyline of Sanctity out of the board. Oh, and it takes at most 2 damage from Eidolon when it goes off.

That's what I think anyway.

[Gaudy]

Hi, thank for the reply. i have made no choise yet about what to do. one option that i was thinking about is do nothing (aka no sb against show and tell) and use that slot in other match.

[Mondale]

Both of these decks are bad matchups, first of all, so don't expect too much. That said, there are a few things you can do.

1. Ensnaring Bridge has some virtue of being able to come in against both of these decks, as well as others, buy that flexibility isn't free. The card is not very effective. It will buy you a variable amount of time against Sneaky Show, and doesn't do much against a lot of Reanimator creatures even if you get to resolve it. The worst Reanimator target, Iona, cares nothing for the bridge.

2. Blasts can help, but here again you're on thin ice. The best thing to counter, in my opinion, is the setup spells, those Brainstorms and Ponders. The killer Show and Tell, when it comes, is going to be defended. Of course the problem with this is that you've got to have mana open, slowing the clock and obviating the entire point of the deck. It's hard to Blast one's way to a blowout.

3. Sulfuric Vortex should stay in. Dropping this off of a SnT against a Griselbrand can leave you with chances in a damage race.

Those are the flexible cards that a lot of players keep around, myself included. Strategy #1 is right here, the plan of having some SB cards that at least might do something, but come in against a lot of other decks, and hope to dodge these.



In my opinion, though, stronger and more specific hate is actually required should you wish to actually have a positive matchup.

4. Graveyard hate: if you want to beat Reanimator, you really want a Faerie Macabre just because it's uncounterable. Now, they can still Thoughtseize it. Tormod's Crypt is harder to catch with discard, but it is vulnerable to countermagic. Pick your poison. I like the faerie. Unfortunately, this won't solve all your problems, as Reanimator packs Show and Tell.

5. Dedicated Show and Tell hate: you mentioned Angel. I suppose you meant Angel of Despair, and though most people use Ashen Rider (since it's better), Vindicangel is old-school and I like her. Don't skimp. You need three. Iona, Guardian of Emeria deserves honorable mention here. The problem is that 3 slots devoted to this specific problem is 20% of the board space devoted to 1.5 decks, raising their percentage by just a little bit. Also, be careful not to cackle like Mr. Burns when the unlikely happens and you actually open with an Angel in your grip against SnT. They'll put you on the Angel and go for Sneak Attack.

These are pretty awful matchups, but in my view they aren't the worst. Omnitell is the worst. It has nearly the same clock, straight basic lands to dodge PoP, no need to pass the turn when it goes off, and Leyline of Sanctity out of the board. Oh, and it takes at most 2 damage from Eidolon when it goes off.

That's what I think anyway.

What about grafdigger's cage? Seems good against reanimator and dredge. Incidental hate against elves.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What about grafdigger's cage? Seems good against reanimator and dredge. Incidental hate against elves.

The response you quoted was a reply to the question: What is a good sideboard card against Show and Tell?
Grafdigger's Cage is a great sideboard card, but it does nothing against Show and Tell. :wink:

[Lormador]

That SCG Atlanta list ran 3 Pithing Needle in the board. Those could help against Griselbrand, and they are flexible enough to come in quite often. I think the problem would be the temptation to board them in when they weren't actually needed, and I still wouldn't want to be staring down a 7/7 flying lifelink creature with only a Pithing Needle to save me.

[jcsy]

How is howl of the horde? Any possibilities?

-----------------------------------------------------
Tapatalked from Sony Xperia Z1
Stock JB 4.4.4

[pinkfrosting]

How is howl of the horde? Any possibilities?

Too expensive and too conditional. It might work out for you and give you a 9 damage bolt every once in a while but more often then not you're just going to win before you get a chance to cast it, have it countered, or just not be able to meet all the conditions to make it work.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I've seen several decklists running three copies of Grim Lavamancer instead of four. What's everyone's opinion regarding the ideal number of this card in Burn?

[Lormador]

Any number of Grim Lavamancer is defensible depending on the conditions.

1-2 can be run without fetchlands although this probably won't be a concern for anyone any longer.

3 is for when one has the fetchlands and don't like seeing a second Grim Lavamancer. I run 3.

4 is for when one has the fetchlands and enjoys seeing a second Grim Lavamancer.

Before Eidolon was printed it was much more common to see 4 than 3 I think, as Burn didn't run that many creatures and removal tended to be available to kill the Lavaman. Nowadays, Grim has better chances to survive, and those MD Searing spells also do some of his work.

[Zoomer3989]

Any number of Grim Lavamancer is defensible depending on the conditions.

1-2 can be run without fetchlands although this probably won't be a concern for anyone any longer.

3 is for when one has the fetchlands and don't like seeing a second Grim Lavamancer. I run 3.

4 is for when one has the fetchlands and enjoys seeing a second Grim Lavamancer.

Before Eidolon was printed it was much more common to see 4 than 3 I think, as Burn didn't run that many creatures and removal tended to be available to kill the Lavaman. Nowadays, Grim has better chances to survive, and those MD Searing spells also do some of his work.

Agree on the conclusion about its numbers changing with how the deck's configuration has changed.

I still think 4 is the best number - we aren't a deck with real filtering, and Grim is a fragile card. Drawing 2 isn't amazing but it's not as if it's that bad of a draw in general. I would probably run 3 if I only ran 8 fetchlands, but I think 10-12 is correct.

The other issue I have is that I can rarely think of a card I'd want over the 4th. Possibly cutting a Searing Blaze for 2 maindeck Vortex, but I'm not a fan of it in the mainboard, especially with mainboard Eidolons. I don't think Burn is a deck that can use 1-ofs well, and Grim is powerful enough, IMO, that even though the 4th one is weaker then 1-3, it's still better then any 1-of we'd want.

[amalek0]

I tend to play 3 lavamancers, cutting the 4th for the 21st land (8th mountain) to help mitigate the increased number of stifles my manabase eats. As we all know, the %'s for 19,20, and 21 are all virtually the same, but since I rarely like drawing the second lavamancer and absolutely detest ever drawing three, I feel like the extra land is better than the 4th lavamancer. Note that I run a singleton keldon megaliths however, so you could view it as cutting a single lavamancer for a megaliths.

[jcsy]

Monastery Swiftspear

How is this card shaping up? Conditional and weak as well, or comparable to Goblin Guide :D

[Lyle Hopkins]

It's very good, but it's far better in UR where you'd be constantly and reliably cantripping via Probes and Brainstorms.

I brought it up earlier, and I think I have to agree with Jellydonut.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Went 4-0 at a 16 player local.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex

10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9 :r: fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex

R1 D&T 2-0
R2 D&T 2-1
R3 ANT 2-1
R4 Reanimator 2-1

Swiftspear was good! He blanked a SoFaI trigger when I bolted my opponent's face against D&T. He did as much damage or more than GG every turn except the turn I played him. Against Storm I had 3 out and PoP, Fireblast and attacking for 9 was more than enough.

Taiga for Destructive Revelry helped against D&T.

[cheerios]

Wow!!! Props for beating ANT and Reanimator.

Cheers,

[PhyrexianPossum]

Went 4-0 at a 16 player local.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex

10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9 :r: fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex

R1 D&T 2-0
R2 D&T 2-1
R3 ANT 2-1
R4 Reanimator 2-1

Swiftspear was good! He blanked a SoFaI trigger when I bolted my opponent's face against D&T. He did as much damage or more than GG every turn except the turn I played him. Against Storm I had 3 out and PoP, Fireblast and attacking for 9 was more than enough.

Taiga for Destructive Revelry helped against D&T.

I notice you don't have any Searing effects in the 75. Do you feel that this is detrimental in any way?

My list is similar to yours:


//Creature (10)
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear

//Enchantment Creature (4)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

//Instant (15)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze

//Sorcery (12)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

//Land (20)
4 Bloodstained Mire
12 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sudden Shock
2 Sulfuric Vortex


Also, with the inclusion of Monestary Swiftspear, is it totally wrong to include 1-2 Gitaxian Probe for a free pump and information?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Wow!!! Props for beating ANT and Reanimator.
Thank you! It helped that Storm kept a hand of discard and mana game 3 after we both mulled to 6.
Cage bought me enough time against Reanimator that I had him at low enough life game 3 that he couldn't cast Reanimate without killing himself. :laugh:



I notice you don't have any Searing effects in the 75. Do you feel that this is detrimental in any way?

My list is similar to yours:

LIST

Also, with the inclusion of Monestary Swiftspear, is it totally wrong to include 1-2 Gitaxian Probe for a free pump and information?
Looks like you cut Vortex to fit Swiftspear and I cut Searing effects. I was concerned that cutting Searing Blaze could bite my ass, but I was happy not to have them maindeck against Storm and Reanimator.

Hard to say right or wrong about Probe. I haven't tested. My gut says I'd rather have a card that deals damage.

[LeoCop 90]

Running probe together with eidolon is too much suicide style ... at that point run also flame rift and you are authorized to splash black for death's shadow :smile:

Seriously speaking, probe can lead to difficult mulligan decision , and paying life can be a problem... i wouldn't run it when the only upside is the swiftspear "combo", and filling the graveyard for lavamancer if you run him.

[ntropy]

On the subject of cutting the 4th Grim Lavamancer and what one-ofs are worth running, what about 1 Flame Rift or 1 Shard Volley. Most builds have moved away from 4 Flame Rift main, and Shard Volley has it's liabilities, but as a 1 or 2-of, it could be Lightning Bolt number 17. (Or Rift could be Price Of Progress number 5.) Just a thought.

[Griselpuff]

Is Vexing Shusher any good against Miracles? Somehow I feel like having odd CMC spells is better.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Is Vexing Shusher any good against Miracles? Somehow I feel like having odd CMC spells is better.

Vexing Shusher can be quite strong against U/W Control, but the card doesn't have a large amount of play against other archetypes.

[Valtrix]

If you really want to beat Miracles, another card to consider would be Shrine of Burning Rage or Sulfuric Vortex. It's the sustained damage sources that are hard for miracles to beat.

[Ace/Homebrew]

1-2 Drop'd in Philly

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex

10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9 :r: fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vexing Shusher

R1 RUG Delver, 2-0
He won the die roll, but I was ahead the whole time both games.

R2 U/R Swiftspear, 0-2
Totally winnable match up. I know what I did wrong here.

R3 Esper Stoneblade 0-2
Here's where I could use some feedback...

Pretty sure this isn't a great match up for Burn, but haven't played against it a lot. He played 4 StP (3 plus a SCMage) the first game. I got him to 3 before going hellbent. I top deck Lava Spike but he had Counterspell. Batterskull comes online and blah blah blah...
Game 2 I lose 3 Rift Bolt, 1 PoP, and 1 Eidolon for 3 Destructive Revelry, Vexing Shusher, and Sulfuric Vortex. I was never really in it. He takes my Revelry with an Inquisition and runs wild with Jitte.

With the sideboard I have, I'm thinking it would have been better to lose 4 Goblin Guide, 3 Rift Bolt, and add in 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Destructive Revelry, and Vortex. I did miss Searing effects this week... I'll have to find room in the board for a couple.

So what have people had success with against Esperblade?

[David Kaplan]

Volcanic Fallout is very good right now.

THREAT
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
- 12

BURN
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Searing Blood
2 Volcanic Fallout
- 28

MANA
20 Mountain
- 20

SIDEBOARD
4 Pithing Needle
2 Searing Blood
1 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Volcanic Fallout

[Lormador]

1-2 Drop'd in Philly

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex

10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9 :r: fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vexing Shusher

R1 RUG Delver, 2-0
He won the die roll, but I was ahead the whole time both games.

R2 U/R Swiftspear, 0-2
Totally winnable match up. I know what I did wrong here.

R3 Esper Stoneblade 0-2
Here's where I could use some feedback...

Pretty sure this isn't a great match up for Burn, but haven't played against it a lot. He played 4 StP (3 plus a SCMage) the first game. I got him to 3 before going hellbent. I top deck Lava Spike but he had Counterspell. Batterskull comes online and blah blah blah...
Game 2 I lose 3 Rift Bolt, 1 PoP, and 1 Eidolon for 3 Destructive Revelry, Vexing Shusher, and Sulfuric Vortex. I was never really in it. He takes my Revelry with an Inquisition and runs wild with Jitte.

With the sideboard I have, I'm thinking it would have been better to lose 4 Goblin Guide, 3 Rift Bolt, and add in 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Destructive Revelry, and Vortex. I did miss Searing effects this week... I'll have to find room in the board for a couple.

So what have people had success with against Esperblade?

As a Blade player I've developed a healthy fear of the red mages. Most of the time, they blast through my control elements with redundancy and bring my life total down to zero in classical fashion. I don't even test my own Burn vs Esperblade matchup any longer, as it seems pointless.

There are a lot of different Esper builds out there, and one thing they differ on is the number of basic lands played. You're looking at anywhere from 0-8 basic lands in the deck, with 3-4 most likely. I don't think you should have boarded out Price of Progress against the three-color deck.

Destructive Revelry should certainly come in, and so should Sulfuric Vortex. I disagree that Rift Bolt should be removed for these. A suspended Rift Bolt can have an inhibiting effect on Stoneforge Mystic and affect what equipment is searched up with it. Goblin Guide I agree should come out, and I think Lava Spike is the least of the burn spells in this situation.

I also think you're right to identify the lack of Searing Blaze/Blood as the major problem for this particular matchup. It's a whole lot harder to connect with a Jitte or drop a Batterskull when the creatures keep dying, and the redundancy of having another way to deal with equipment when the first is countered/discarded is very nice to have.

It definitely sounds like that Esper player had pretty wonderful hands against you in those games though, right down to the Inquisition instead of Thoughtseize and 1-2 of Counterspell vs. fatal Lava Spike.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Volcanic Fallout is very good right now.
This feels true. Especially since casting Fallout gives your Swiftspear enough prowess to survive. :cool:


As a Blade player...
Thank you for your insight!

My opponent and I discussed the matchup afterwards. Apparently he has a ton of practice against Burn from playing online. The only card he had that could deal with a Bridge once it clears the stack is a single copy of Council's Judgment. He ran 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition maindeck with a single copy of each in the board. He takes out the Thoughtseize against Burn and adds the 3rd Inquisition (makes sense :rolleyes:).

My opponent agreed with you that shaving a PoP was wrong. Game 1 he had 4 basics and a Tundra when he was at 5 life. PoP was the only card in my hand. I had hoped he would play a fetch into a nonbasic and hand me the win... EoT I played PoP for 2 damage and relied on the Heart of the Cards to top deck a 3 damage spell.

Good to know this isn't a terrible match up and that my opponent's good hands were a big factor!

[Gaudy]

Monastery Swiftspear is working good? i have struggles with it, i think is too straightforward strategy, whit even less option to the error and more predictable. And i feel "hopeless" without Lavamancer

[Ace/Homebrew]

Monastery Swiftspear

It is difficult to decisively say whether Goblin Guide or Swiftspear is better in Burn. Playing either turn 1 and following up with two 3-damage/1-mana spells puts your opponent at 10. Swiftspear does it without giving your opponent potentially 2 lands. BUT sometimes the information you get from Guide helps too.

I suppose since the third week since it went legal is just beginning, it would be appropriate to say it needs more testing. :laugh:








I like it though, whatever that's worth...

[Gaudy]

well for me Guide is very usefull card, it is always given me valuable information, but i am not a player that think a cc1 bolt cards should be played in t1 and for that reason i have my doubts about monastery swiftspear, i have to adjust my way of play to that card and that for me is a great change in the way i see and play this deck; aim for the dome never was my way

[paeng4983]

What do you think of this combination

Monastery + Young + Eidilon + Firedancer?

You cast an instant and you have any of their combination:
Monastery has prowess
Young will give you an extra dude
eidilon, well it kicks you for two
firedancer makes your spell acts like a searing blaze.

[Lormador]

I would worry that with 16 creatures in the deck I might not have that many spells to trigger them, or I might draw and play the spells before I get to the synergistic creatures.

Maybe it can work, it just seems like a tricky situation.

[Annie Bot]

How did running the 3 Cage's feel? I've been eschewing graveyard hate for awhile, but I'm not sure if that's right.

Simply put it was great but not for burn, I switched back to RoP in case real hate needs to be brought out.

As for all these new creatures ya'll are rolling out, I look forward to hearing about real tournament results but fear that you're taking away from the decks intended purpose. Aside from GG, the only creatures the deck runs are for both control and extra damage ( GL and EotGR ) not pure damage.

[Krimson Viper]

Hello everyone. I've been playing Burn in Modern and I'm wanting to play Burn in Legacy because why not? I played it the previous weekend before last and I lost pretty readily to UR Delver that was a direct copy of the winning list on SCG. I probably played wrong, because I've read that this MU is suppose to be in our favor. Anyway, my meta is filled with Dredge, Reanimator with Petals, Miracles Losset and BBD builds, and ANT/TES. There are some fair decks hopping around like Dark Maverick, Stoneblade, and various Delver builds. With UR Delver winning the most recent SCG event before SCG in Oakland, people will be playing it or decks that prey upon it. I'm wanting to build a bit of Burn deck that is good for this type of meta.

First the deck I used at that tournament:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Searing Blaze
3 Price of Progress
3 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

10 Mountain
9 red fetches

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Shattering Spree
1 Searing Blood
1 Searing Blaze

First thing I didn't like was the Flame Rift. It seemed to give the Delver player a leg to stand on while I played against him. So, I want to cut this completely from the list. No questions about it, just done. Second thing, was my sideboard was complete trash and needs to be reworked. Third thing, what can I use to replace Flame Rift in the main and what should I run in the side? Fourth thing was was that I have drawn into multiple copies of Fireblast and became a sad panda. The decks that immediately come to mind that kill UR Delver are Jund, Miracles, and Shardless BUG. PoP are great against Jund and BUG, terrible against Miracles. Vortex is good against all three. Am I wrong in thinking Jund, Miracles, and BUG will show up in force to kill UR Delver with Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise? What other decks should I be preparing for and what cards should I use main and side for these?

So far, this is what I've come up with:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

9 Mountain
10 red fetches

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Shattering Spree
2 Searing Blood
2 Ensnaring Bridge

Is this any good? Can I forgo the Surgical Extractions, because I fear that if I do, Dredge will kill me. However, if I do let it go, I can bring in another Ensnaring Bridge and Mindbreak Trap to shore up a possible pairing with Show and Tell and Storm decks.

I don't feel like I can get rid of artifact hate though. Jitte, BSkull, and Cranial plating sort of ruin my day. Sure Vortex stops life gain, but the pumps and beats race me and I would like to cut them at the knees. However, should I trade them for Smash to Smithereens?

Should I move Searing Blood into the main, and keep the four Searing Blaze? I could make space by removing a Fireblast and PoP. Details against Death and Taxes as well, would be much appreciated.

[MaximumC]

So I've been goldfishing a WR burn list lately with Monestary Swiftspear, and I'm liking the results. My only actual matches so far have been against Lands, though, so take that for what it's worth!

This build is all about making your first 3 turns as explosive as possible and then finishing the opponent off in topdeck mode. Cheap cards are preferred over long game cards.

1. Why white?

This question is probably answered various times in this thread, but it's basically for two cards: Disenchant and Boros Charm. The former stops you from auto-losing to things like Chalice or Leyline, and the latter is a fine replacement for Flame Rift that very occasionally squeezes an extra point of damage out of a Swiftspear and, in a pinch, can save a dork.

2. Why not Lavamancer?

I'm totally on the fence about this. I get the value Lavamancer gives the red deck, and I get the need to clear early ground dorks, but he's very, very slow. My goldfish is a win on turn 3 or 4 pretty normally, and this would be much slower with Lavamancer. If he had haste, we could talk, but as it sits he is just a finisher for the long game.

3. Why Swiftspear?

This card is totally amazing in burn and I doubt those who poo-poo it have really tried it out. You are playing a deck where you will be tossing spells out there for damage every turn. That means Spear is basically GG 5-8, and that gives your early ground pounders a level of consistency that is amazing. Remember, your first turn 2/2 haste dork is going to translate R into somewhere between 2 and 6 damage over the course of the early game.

4. Thunderous Wrath? Really?

Yes. And here's why: this deck wants to prey on variance and get lucky with explosive draws that burn out your opponent before they can react. Wrath is 5 to the dome for 1, giving you the opportunity for very quick kills and a way to hit your opponent for lethal even if they think they're out of burn range. Sure, its a dead card in your opening hand, but anywhere else it is amazing.

So here's what I'm tinkering with:

Creatures (10)
-----------
4 Goblin Guide
4 Swiftspear
2 Spark Elemental

Burn (33)
-----------
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Boros Charm
1 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Thunderous Wrath

Anti-burn hate (2)
----------
2 Skullcrack / Vortex, another 2 in the board. I lean agaist Vortex given the low mana count of this build.

Lands (16)
-----------
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
7 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
-------------
2 Skullcrack / Vortex
3 Stingscourger
3 Disenchant
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap

The board is targeted at doing two things: giving us outs to people who board in specific burn hate like Leyline or COP:Red, and giving us free answers to decks that potentially can kill faster than we can, namely: dredge/reanimator, charbelcher, and Show and Tell. Merfolk, Goblins, and Affinity might also be reasonable sideboard targets, too.

Anyone tried something similar?

[Lyle Hopkins]

Is this any good? Can I forgo the Surgical Extractions, because I fear that if I do, Dredge will kill me. However, if I do let it go, I can bring in another Ensnaring Bridge and Mindbreak Trap to shore up a possible pairing with Show and Tell and Storm decks.

I don't feel like I can get rid of artifact hate though. Jitte, BSkull, and Cranial plating sort of ruin my day. Sure Vortex stops life gain, but the pumps and beats race me and I would like to cut them at the knees. However, should I trade them for Smash to Smithereens?

Should I move Searing Blood into the main, and keep the four Searing Blaze? I could make space by removing a Fireblast and PoP. Details against Death and Taxes as well, would be much appreciated.

I'm an advocate for running no fewer than twenty lands in the deck. Playing around soft counters can be pivotal. I will probably keep playing four Fireblast for a while, but I'm interested in everyone's opinion on Price of Progress. I love seeing it against BUG, but a large portion of the format can either operate off of basic lands (ex. Omni-tell) or one or two non-basics (ex. Delver), or they can Wasteland their own non-basics. I would argue that it's one of the more inconsistent cards in the deck, but it can force your opponent to play differently, so it's a bit of a dilemma for me.


Anyone tried something similar?

I started a thread on RW Burn a while back and you can read about it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25568-Boros-Burn).

In my opinion, as long as people are playing Wasteland, I will play mono-red. Even with twenty lands, it can be a devastating. Also, I don't believe speed is necessarily the most important aspect of the deck. There are plenty of combo decks that can win faster, but Burn's strengths are in card advantage and consistency.

[Vandalize]

Dudes, don't cut Grim Lavamancer. This deck runs out of steam pretty fast, and Grim Lavamancer is a perfect way to deal sustain damage, as well as being great against must-answer creatures, like Stoneforge Mystic, Deathrite and Delver.

The maindeck I'm playing right now is pretty basic:

Lands [20]
8 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures [12]
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide/Monastery Swiftspear (I'm testing each, but Guide has the edge so far)
4 Grim Lavamancer

Spells [28]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Fireblast

Sideboard [15]
4 Ensinaring Bridge
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Relic of Progenitus/Pithing Needle (depends on what I'm expecting to face)
2 Volcanic Fallout

Our worst matchups (I think) are Sneak and Show and Miracles. Ensnaring Bridge are great against them both (shutting off both Entreat and Griselbrand/Emrakul). Also, Sulfuric Vortex is very important against many control decks, especially Miracles.

By playing only four offs, it's pretty simple to sideboard: against basic lands, take out all Price of Progress, against few-creature decks, take all Searing Blazes and some Grim Lavamancers.

[Annie Bot]

So I've been goldfishing a WR burn list lately with Monestary Swiftspear, and I'm liking the results. My only actual matches so far have been against Lands, though, so take that for what it's worth!

I hadn't noticed any other burn players taking an interest in WR variants, its always been BR for more damage + discard, or UR for more control but lets see what ya got.


This build is all about making your first 3 turns as explosive as possible and then finishing the opponent off in topdeck mode. Cheap cards are preferred over long game cards.

Explosive first 3 turns sounds enticing, but remember this logic won't carry you very far in a tourney. While burn has elements of combo, it is not pure combo. Maybe Rogue Hermit, TinFins, or SnT fits your playstyle a bit better?


1. Why white?

This question is probably answered various times in this thread, but it's basically for two cards: Disenchant and Boros Charm. The former stops you from auto-losing to things like Chalice or Leyline, and the latter is a fine replacement for Flame Rift that very occasionally squeezes an extra point of damage out of a Swiftspear and, in a pinch, can save a dork.

The deck isn't dead to Chalice or Leyline, assuming you mean postboard. Using the combination of both creature and targetless damage for Leyline, and cards like StS or SS for Chalice. But if you're attempting to win in 3 turns every game, I don't see why Chalice is even a concern for you. Disenchant is unnecessary and Boros Charm is not worth a splash opening yourself to wasteland. Burns strength is in it's consistency and being able to avoid as many counters as we can.


2. Why not Lavamancer?

I'm totally on the fence about this. I get the value Lavamancer gives the red deck, and I get the need to clear early ground dorks, but he's very, very slow. My goldfish is a win on turn 3 or 4 pretty normally, and this would be much slower with Lavamancer. If he had haste, we could talk, but as it sits he is just a finisher for the long game.

GL provides spot removal for must-remove creatures, sustained damage, and possibly targetless damage if attacking head on. I don't know of any lists not running this aside from when EotGR first came out and people we're debating which spot this should replace ( most list dropped GL and SB > FR to 3-of's to allow a 2-of SV ), but if you go to a real tournament you are almost guaranteed to see the need for it.


3. Why Swiftspear?

This card is totally amazing in burn and I doubt those who poo-poo it have really tried it out. You are playing a deck where you will be tossing spells out there for damage every turn. That means Spear is basically GG 5-8, and that gives your early ground pounders a level of consistency that is amazing. Remember, your first turn 2/2 haste dork is going to translate R into somewhere between 2 and 6 damage over the course of the early game.

I'm not sure why you would run this in addition to GG, you're opening yourself up to more creature removal for absolutely no benefit. GG turn 1-2 provides "garunteed" 4 damage. If you drop swiftspear turn 1 you get (at most) 4 damage turn 2 and force yourself into some very bad plays like not being able to Eidolon turn 2 and still gain equivalent damage. As well as not being able to get the benefit of seeing their next draw that you get w/ GG (comparing not adding).


4. Thunderous Wrath? Really?

Yes. And here's why: this deck wants to prey on variance and get lucky with explosive draws that burn out your opponent before they can react. Wrath is 5 to the dome for 1, giving you the opportunity for very quick kills and a way to hit your opponent for lethal even if they think they're out of burn range. Sure, its a dead card in your opening hand, but anywhere else it is amazing

After much much testing the community seemed to come to the consensus that this card was too dangerous to run as even a 1 of. We don't have any deck manipulation and the casting cost is too rich to run the risk of getting it in an opening hand. While you see this risk, I guess you'll just have to have it happen to you and cost you the games before you'll fully understand.


So here's what I'm tinkering with:

Creatures (10)
-----------
4 Goblin Guide
4 Swiftspear
2 Spark Elemental

Burn (33)
-----------
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Boros Charm
1 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Thunderous Wrath

Anti-burn hate (2)
----------
2 Skullcrack / Vortex, another 2 in the board. I lean agaist Vortex given the low mana count of this build.

Lands (16)
-----------
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
7 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
-------------
2 Skullcrack / Vortex
3 Stingscourger
3 Disenchant
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap



Swiftspear, Spark Elemental, Boros Charm, Flame Rift, Thunderous Wrath, Skullcrack, Plateau, Stingscourger, and Disenchant all need to be removed. A splashed burn deck (as of today) is a worse version of Mono Red (as much as it pains me to say this, being an advocated of BR Burn only to see what really happens).


The board is targeted at doing two things: giving us outs to people who board in specific burn hate like Leyline or COP:Red, and giving us free answers to decks that potentially can kill faster than we can, namely: dredge/reanimator, charbelcher, and Show and Tell. Merfolk, Goblins, and Affinity might also be reasonable sideboard targets, too.

Leyline and Chalice we're already discussed, for dredge/reanimator/any grave hate we have FM, SE, and RoP. For SnT we have EB and possibly MT and VS (if you VS out an EotGR to punish their deck manipulation or MT if they try to SA or SnT as their 3rd spell of a turn, boarding choices are individual and based on playstyle, EB and VS being my personal two strongest boarders here).

[sporenfrosch1411]

Has any1 tried splashing 1-2 Volcanics into the allready fetch-swarmed manabase and playing 3-4 Treasure Cruise?

[kryllex]

Cruise does not Belong in Burn, you should play UR if you want to run it. A topdecked cruise without enough gas in the grave is the last thing this Deck wants to see. Also, you will get vulnerable to Wastelands, and hurt yourself with PoP :rolleyes:

[sporenfrosch1411]

Actually you would not fetch the singleton Volcanic Island before Turn3-4, by then if your deck does not have enough to support the delve your probably doing it wrong. Neither Wasteland nor PoP do matter in the slightest way there.
"Cruise does not Belong in Burn, you should play UR if you want to run it." -> Why? The deck runs out of gas regularly which is what cruise would fix.

[kryllex]

You are right, and of course the delve should not be a problem. But still, a cruise and a volcanic in starthand and no other land is just a thing that could force you into a mulligan, if your opponent runs wasties. The theory is good, of course, but it can still create some messy situations regarding wastelands, mulligans and not being able to play PoP, because you are maybe also on 2 - 4 life and can't finish because of that. Just my thoughts, id stay mono red :smile:

[Lyle Hopkins]

Jim Davis just missed the top eight of SCG Worcester. It's great to see an excellent player like Jim piloting Burn. I'm really digging Relic of Progenitus right now, especially with these delve cards making a splash.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74784

[MaximumC]

So, I took my Red/White brew, with full playsets of Guide and Swiftspear, to an 8-man sanctioned legacy tourny today. I won the tournament at 3-0, so the deck works fine. But, my pairings were... well.... you'll see.

ROUND 1 - Win 2-0 - Jund

Game 1 I have a grip with two mana and lots of burn spells, and keep drawing gas. He gets burned out quickly. The only disruption he shows is a Thoughtseize, which is more or less fine with me. I think the game ends with Boros Charm + Fireblast.

Game 2 he leads with a Deathrite. I don't like pointing bolts at dudes, but this dude in particular must die because it gains him life. So he plays another one. I bolt that one, too, getting in with Guide. He slows things down with Hymn to Torach, but my beats keep coming and he has taken too much by the time Goyf arrives.

ROUND 2 - Win 2-0 - Doomsday (Menedian's version)

Once I realized what this guy was doing, I cheered him on but watched him crater fantastically just like I did last time I tried to play this beast. A deck that needs to halve its life total to win is not where you want to be against Burn.

ROUND 3 - WIN 2-1 Jund

I think this was a carbon copy of the 1st list, but it was a more aggressive pilot and he had the benefit of knowing what I was playing before we started. He was much more tight with his play and the games each came down to our last measly points of damage on each side. During the last game, I flipped a burn spell to hit for for exactly lethal when I would have died to beats next turn. Thunderous Wrath was MVP here. If I hadn't flipped that earlier and gotten in for 5 early on, I would have been toast when he stabilized later.

IMPRESSIONS:

Yeah, winning against the best possible decks you could play with Burn doesn't mean a whole lot. But I did notice a few things:

1. Thunderous Wrath adds variance but sometimes you want that.

I loved it all day. Once I had Wrath and two lands in my opener, so I just shipped it back for six better cards. Worked out fine. Whenever I flipped Wrath, it was amazing. 1 mana for 5 is just so important when your opponent can stall you out midgame.

2. Wasteland? Who cares?

My white splash never felt like a liability. I just waited to fetch White until I needed to, and despite facing lots of wastelands, I was never pressured on mana. I won several games sitting on a singleton mountain until the last turn when I needed to cast Blast.

[Lyle Hopkins]

What does everyone think of Dragon's Claw? I've seen it in a couple sideboards on mtgtop8.com. The card seems like it might be decent against the new incarnation of U/R Delver. It also obviously helps the mirror match.

[Blastoderm]

What does everyone think of Dragon's Claw? I've seen it in a couple sideboards on mtgtop8.com. The card seems like it might be decent against the new incarnation of U/R Delver. It also obviously helps the mirror match.

I'm pretty sure more Searing Blood in the board is better vs UR delver

[Lyle Hopkins]

I'm pretty sure more Searing Blood in the board is better vs UR delver

You're probably right. I'm just trying to figure out the advantages of running Dragon's Claw.

[Lyle Hopkins]

New Jim Davis article on Burn:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29627_Burning-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey.html

[Nina]

I have 4 slots to fill and am not sure about what card(s) to run.

Whats the best out of this 4 in a legacy burn deck or what are the advantages and disadvantages of them? Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, Monastary Swiftspear and Flame Rift.

Also I read some pages ago about adding a Keldon Megaliths to the landbase.
What do you guys think about utitilty lands like Keldon Megaliths (etb tapped) or Barbarian Ring (conflicts with Lavamancers) in Burn? Are there more reasonable options?

[Krimson Viper]

Played in yesterday's Open in Oakland. I went five and three, coming in at thirty-seventh with this list. My only losses were to Dredge decks. I swept away everything I played against except for a D&T player and that came down to three games and to the wire with both of us hiding behind hate cards: mine behind Bridge and his behind two Chalice and a Batterskull in hand. I think I will up Relic or Tormod's to two, cutting Extraction down to one. The main and side for everything else was great.

How do I sideboard against Dredge? I've only played against this deck three times in my life, so I don't know how to navigate against this thing. Help? I know I should kill one of my own creatures if there are Bridges in the grave, but when do I do it? On my turn? On theirs? One Bridge or more?

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

9 Mountain
10 red fetches

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Shattering Spree
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blood
3 Ensnaring Bridge

[Annie Bot]

I have 4 slots to fill and am not sure about what card(s) to run.

Whats the best out of this 4 in a legacy burn deck or what are the advantages and disadvantages of them? Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, Monastary Swiftspear and Flame Rift.

Also I read some pages ago about adding a Keldon Megaliths to the landbase.
What do you guys think about utitilty lands like Keldon Megaliths (etb tapped) or Barbarian Ring (conflicts with Lavamancers) in Burn? Are there more reasonable options?

For the most part these questions have already been answered throughout the thread but I understand it is a very long thread and in case anyone else is wondering lets go over them. Flame Rift out of the four for the first question has mostly been replaced by Searing Blaze. Hellspark comes in at a crucial spot needed for better plays, Keldon adds to the clock - does not provide garunteed 5 damage - and feeds shaman (as well as hellspark possibly), MS adds to the clock - does not provide garunteed = dmg as GG - and forces your turn 2 plays which again is a crucial moment better suited for other things. Though to give you my opinion of the best card for the slot I'd need your full list, but the current meta'd deck can be found on various top X sites or you can grab the shell from the first post.

Not personally a fan of utility lands, aside from the GL reason there are the PoP, Wasteland, and Fireblast issues. The deck has the ability to run a lot of sustained damage that wasn't previously available and I don't see the need to make the deck weaker ( imho ) for a concept that already has better replacements.

[Ace/Homebrew]

How do I sideboard against Dredge?

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Those 6 cards are the only with any application against Dredge.
I would probably go -4 Price of Progress and -2 Sulfuric Vortex for everything above but 1 Bridge (and I'm very curious to see what others here say!).

Keep in mind that Lavaman can target himself if you need to remove Bridge from Below.
When to try to remove Bridge from Below depends entirely on what their board and graveyard looks like. You can usually survive them having 1 bridge. Generally you want to do it in response to a Narcomoeba trigger (before they get to flashback Cabal Therapy or Dread Return) or an Ichorid Trigger.

[Krimson Viper]

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Those 6 cards are the only with any application against Dredge.
I would probably go -4 Price of Progress and -2 Sulfuric Vortex for everything above but 1 Bridge (and I'm very curious to see what others here say!).

Keep in mind that Lavaman can target himself if you need to remove Bridge from Below.
When to try to remove Bridge from Below depends entirely on what their board and graveyard looks like. You can usually survive them having 1 bridge. Generally you want to do it in response to a Narcomoeba trigger (before they get to flashback Cabal Therapy or Dread Return) or an Ichorid Trigger.

Awesome. I believe I will be adjusting the SB to either another Tormod's Crypt or Relic and dropping an Extraction. I thought of Bridge, but I never found my hand emptied by turn two, which is where I find their most craziest turns are at. I didn't think of the triggers being the best time to kill my guys. I probably should have mulled better, but I have a hard time just mulling for hate pieces because the higher chance of having a slow hand with a hate piece always happens to me. Thank you!

[MaximumC]

I'm a huge fan of using Faerie Macabre, because my preferred Burn list is designed for speed and to be ready to take massive advantage of good variance instead of running a list that maximizes consistency.

Why do I like Faerie? Because it's the most difficult hate for dredge or renimator to fight, and ideally you only need to put up a roadblock in their way in order to win the game while they try to find another way to go off. It's an activated ability from your hand, for free, so they can't counter it or remove it. It is guaranteed to stymie their first attempt to go broken (none of these enemies use Stifle) and it doesn't slow you down at all as the burn player while you do it.

Extraction works very well, too, but since it's a spell it can be Forced. That makes it less great against reanimator.

That said, if your list is slower you might want something more permanent like Cage or Leyline. I don't think anything else works because of the mana commitment involved in other hate pieces.

[MaximumC]

So, I took my White/Red Burn deck to another Legacy tournament, and went 4-0, winning it for the second time in a row. This time the matchups were against a wider variety of decks.

Round 1 - Win 2-1 - Faerie Control? I guess? I saw a lot of Bitterblossom, Jace, Counterbalance, Scion of Oona, etc. His best cards were spell pierce and flusterstorm, which he used to 1-for-1 me on burn until he could use Jace or something to out draw me. In two games, I had to play through a resolved Counterbalance -- and did so. Thunderous Wrath, Rift Bolt, and Lavamancer all gave me many outs to the horrid enchantment.

Round 2 - Win 2-0 - Jund. This was one of the same opponents from last week. He never really got off the ground, only seeing one Hymn in two games, no Shaman, and more Bobs than Goyfs.

Round 3 - Win 2-0 - Miracles. I was worried here because I figured that between Counterblance and whatever blue/white hate he had post board, I was going to get hosed. Not so. I guess this deck doesn't run card draw engines that cost less than Jace, and 1-for-1ing me on spells is a losing idea for him. Resolved Swiftspears are insane in this matchup, allowing me to close both games with monster turns where several Rift Bolts and burn spells from the hand overwhelm his countermagic and force him to make impossible choices about what to stop even while they all pump the Spear.

Round 4 - Win 2-0 - Show and Tell. Game 1, he never finds his combo in the four turns he is allowed before being burned. Game 2, I board in Red Blasts. Goblin Guide shows me a Show and Tell on top of his library, so I wisely hold back my burn in favor of keeping up RR for two Blasts. He goes for SNT with Force backup... but only one Force backup. He dies shortly after that. Post game he suggests I should have boarded into Disenchant preemptively because combo decks like his will use Leyline. Perhaps? He didn't mull to it in game 2, though, so maybe I just got lucky.

CONCLUSIONS

I am still in love with the 4x Spear 4x Guide plan. Almost every game I get a ground pounder going immediately who starts multiplying my burn or giving me a peek at their next draw.

Still like me some Thunderous Wrath. Saw it in my opening hand twice and topdecked it turn 1 once (durrr) but I also flipped into it twice for massive damage.

I faced several decks using Wasteland, and every time they used it to attack my manabase, I could have cared less. I can operate on one mana for the most part, and the tempo the opponent loses trying to keep me off of Plateau is totally worth it for me when I've got hasty 1 drops doing my dirty work. I NEVER felt like the splash color was a liability, even when burning myself a little with Price.

Very little feels as good as having your opponent fetch into shock into Thoughtseize against you on turn 1 when you play burn. How sweet it is.

[P-E]

What is your last build Maximum C ?
also why disenchant over wear//tear in side ?(talking about build on previous page)

[strom]

Congrats for going 4-0. However, I wanted to point out that playing any number of Thunderous Wrath (TW) in a monored burn shell is always wrong.
Here is why (considering you play 1 TW maindeck for the sake of simplification):
A single card (note: card, not spell) in our deck does ~ 2 damage on average (40 Spells, which do ~3 damage each plus 20 lands) .
Given the fact that TW rots in your hand forever, when you draw one with your initially seven equals an expected value of ~ 7/60*(-2)= -0,233
If you are on the draw it gets even worse. Its basically 8/60*(-2) = -0,267
Now in most games with burn, you will draw about 2-5 cards during the course of a game. Let's say 4 on average.
So your ev of drawing into TW for its miracle trigger is: ~ 4/53*(5) = 0,378
That combines to an ev of ~ 0,13

Now, lets assume we play a single Shock instead of TW. Do the same calculation and you will find out that the ev of shock is way higher than 0,13.
We all know that no one plays Shock in a burn.deck for good reason, so why would we want to play an even worse card then?

[MaximumC]

We all know that no one plays Shock in a burn.deck for good reason, so why would we want to play an even worse card then?

Variance at the top end.

Let me explain. The guiding principle in my build is to play Burn like a combo deck; one that uses burn spells to kill the opponent without interaction as quickly as possible. Each turn that the game progresses, burn gets weaker and weaker while the other deck gets stronger and stronger. I want to gamble on getting the game done as quickly as possible. I feel like a consistent burn deck is fine, but that deck will also LOSE consistently to faster combo decks or decks with lots of particular hate pieces. By building in more variance into the deck, there is at least a shot you get lucky and win the game against these decks. It's the same reason you might sideboard in less lands when you play a particularly rough matchup; you know you're increasing the risk of a no-land hand, but you're also increasing the risk of a nuts draw and you need that additional possible top end to win.

Your analysis seems plausible, but all you are really saying is that one is more likely to have a Wrath in the starting 7 or 8 than you are to draw it in the first four or five turns. That's fair. But you neglect that Wrath only matters when it is the last burn spell in your hand. For example, compare the following groups of, say, 12 cards you see during a game arranged as they start in your library before you draw your initial hand from top to bottom:

Mountain
Mountain
Jeskai Swiftspear
Lava Spike
Chain Lightning
Chain Lightning
Thunderous Wrath
Fireblast (D1)
Rift Bolt (D2)
Mountain (D3)
Mountain (D4)
Skullcrack (D5)

What effect does the Wrath have? Well, in goldfish land:

T1: Mtn, Swiftspear, attack (1 damage)
T2: Mtn, Lava Spike (prowess), C.Lightning (prowess), attack (total 10 damage)
T3: Suspend Rift Bolt, C.Lightning (prowess), Fireblast (prowess), attack (total 20 damage)

In this scenario, drawing the Wrath didn't make a lick of difference because the opponent was dead before it was the last card in your hand. There are lots of ways you can randomly arrange burn cards where this is the case.

Mountain
Mountain
Jeskai Swiftspear
Lava Spike
Chain Lightning
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Rift Bolt (D1)
Thunderous Wrath (D2)
Mountain (D3)
Mountain (D4)
Skullcrack (D5)

Let's rearrange it this way. Now how does it play out?

T1, Mtn, Swiftspear, attack (1)
T2. Miracle T.Wrath (prowess) Lava Spike (prowess), attack (12)

The deck is lethal in the same amount of time, but if your opponent has assembled some kind of disruption by turn 2 -- and that's very reasonable since Hymn and Counterbalance are 2 drops that are quite dangerous for burn -- you're ahead.

My point in these examples is to suggest that it's not as simple as saying Wrath has negative expected value. You have to consider that it does not always matter when you draw it initially but it DOES always matter when you draw it later. Does that make sense?


What is your last build Maximum C ?
also why disenchant over wear//tear in side ?(talking about build on previous page)

It's probably just plain wrong; I didn't see my Wear//Tears when I was brewing. Well, that's an easy fix...

Anyway, this the build to the best of my memory:

Creatures (11)
-----------
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monestary Swiftspear
2x Grim Lavamancer
1x Eidolon of the Great Revel

Sweet Burn (16)
------------
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt

Big Burn (16)
--------------
4x Boros Charm
3x Skullcrack
4x Fireblast
3x Thunderous Wrath
2x Price of Progress


Lands (17)
-------------
3 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Plateau
2 Sacred Foundry (lol)
8 Mountain

Sideboard (work in progress)
-------------
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Stingscourger
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Disenchant
1 Erase
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Grim Lavamancer

[Annie Bot]

Congrats on going 4-0 Maximum C.

But yet again I feel it's important to point out that you're trying to justify using worse deck because you had success at a local event where you admitted several times throughout your matches that opponents were also using a worse version deck or even a non competitive deck. There is an enormous difference between playing against 4 other people than going to a 250+ person tournament. And you have also commented several times about how your deck can go off with one land. That statement alone tells us any deck that runs soft counters automatically beats your deck. Long story short, I'm glad you're winning at your locals but I don't want others to feel like this is something that should be mimicked as it's already been discussed in length over the thread why not to do everything you're doing.

[MaximumC]

Congrats on going 4-0 Maximum C.

But yet again I feel it's important to point out that you're trying to justify using worse deck because you had success at a local event where you admitted several times throughout your matches that opponents were also using a worse version deck or even a non competitive deck. There is an enormous difference between playing against 4 other people than going to a 250+ person tournament. And you have also commented several times about how your deck can go off with one land. That statement alone tells us any deck that runs soft counters automatically beats your deck. Long story short, I'm glad you're winning at your locals but I don't want others to feel like this is something that should be mimicked as it's already been discussed in length over the thread why not to do everything you're doing.

My experience is no substitute for the combined experience of the community, sure, but I do take issue with the idea that a deck running "soft counters" beats burn on a single land. Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Daze are one-for-ones against us. They are fine cards if the pilot using the countermagic is able to follow up with some form of game-ending combo or card advantage, like Jace, but trying to go one-for-one against burn on counterspells seems like a losing proposition.

[Chatto]

Hi all, I just recently put Burn together (a pretty stock list: Jim Davis list, except for -1 Searing Blaze +1 Sulfuric Vortex) and I got some questions regarding the SB. Right now it looks like this:

2 Vexing Shusher
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens

I was wondering if:
- this would be good enough when playing in an unknown meta?
- I should like to fit Red Elemental Blast in? What should I drop?
- Is Vexing Shusher worth the slots?


I'm completly new to this deck, so any help is appreciated! Thank you in advance

[Annie Bot]

My experience is no substitute for the combined experience of the community, sure, but I do take issue with the idea that a deck running "soft counters" beats burn on a single land. Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Daze are one-for-ones against us. They are fine cards if the pilot using the countermagic is able to follow up with some form of game-ending combo or card advantage, like Jace, but trying to go one-for-one against burn on counterspells seems like a losing proposition.

Fair enough, on a more constructive note since you're already going for the TW package might I suggest Vexing Devil as well? Perhaps (if needed) some sort of filtering for both TW and VD such as Faithless Looting main deck or Pyrokinesis in the board?


Hi all, I just recently put Burn together (a pretty stock list: Jim Davis list, except for -1 Searing Blaze +1 Sulfuric Vortex) and I got some questions regarding the SB. Right now it looks like this:

2 Vexing Shusher
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens

I was wondering if:
- this would be good enough when playing in an unknown meta?
- I should like to fit Red Elemental Blast in? What should I drop?
- Is Vexing Shusher worth the slots?


I'm completly new to this deck, so any help is appreciated! Thank you in advance
Pithing Needle and the Shushers are considered flex spots. Some people love the Shushers, I'd be afraid they wouldn't last long enough against the deck we bring them out against (Miracles) to be worth their merit but there are plenty of top 8 plays that the Miracles player didn't have a Path or Terminus for it. I personally run the Ashen Riders since Miracles is already a 50/50 win for Burn. Not sure if REB sees much play now, I believe (and the community can correct me if I'm wrong) the biggest reason it was in the deck before was for Imperial Painter. By all means though try it and see if you like it, no one will give you any grief for running them. If you did run them I'd suggest the flex spot of some mixture of your Pithings and Shushers. Other than that all seems fair for an unknown meta, just remember not to dilute the deck too hard post board and you should do fine. I also wanted to point out that your list doesn't have mindbreak trap, since most combo players will use some form of discard post board this isn't a huge issue just wanted to bring it to your attention.

[Ace/Homebrew]

2 Vexing Shusher
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens

I'll throw in my 2 cents. :smile:

I would up the Ensnaring Bridge count to 3 or 4 (probably 3). The deck we need them for is pretty impossible to beat without having one.
What are you including Pithing Needle for specifically?

I would recommend:

2 Searing Blaze
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast, dedicated combo hate like Mindbreak Trap, or even your Pithing Needles.

This gives you a decent spread against our really tough matchups.
Sneak and Show = 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 2 REB
Dredge = 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Relic
Reanimator = 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Relic

And even our not-so-bad matchups.
Relic is all you need against RUG specifically or Goyf based decks in general
Elves = 2 Searing Blaze, 2 Grafdigger's Cage
D+T = 2 Searing Blaze, 3 Smash to Smithereens
U/R Treasure Cruise = 2 Searing Blaze, 2 REB (pretty specifically for TC)

Beating Miracles isn't so much about having hate cards as it is properly sequencing your spells.

[xieyun006]

My experience is no substitute for the combined experience of the community, sure, but I do take issue with the idea that a deck running "soft counters" beats burn on a single land. Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Daze are one-for-ones against us. They are fine cards if the pilot using the countermagic is able to follow up with some form of game-ending combo or card advantage, like Jace, but trying to go one-for-one against burn on counterspells seems like a losing proposition.

It doesn't seem like you have had too much experience with tempo decks, you look at 1-1 card trades as good for us, and in most cases you're right, but the types of decks that use these counters actually use them to help generate card advantage, I'm talking about tempo. Take RUG for example, if they land any of their creatures against us, and are able to trade one for one with our spells, their creatures will go in for 3 damage, at the least, thats a free lightning bolt, so in conjunction with their soft counters, their creatures are providing an extra cards, in the form of damage. All that while we have to deal with their creatures, and have enough damage left over to do 20 to them. If you choose to neglect their creatures and just race, then you are making their soft counters more effective because they will be stunting your damage out put, and you're still losing the race. Having a wasteland proof mana base, and knowing how to play around soft counters is why burn has a good game against these decks.

Why does all this matter? Because Tempo is a huge part of the meta, being confident that your deck can win off of one mana is foolish, play a complete Tier 1 deck, with a good pilot, and you'll feel the true power of "soft counters".

In the end play what you want man, but realize that the comments aimed at you are derived from experience, and even though it seems like I'm trying to stifle your ideas, I'm just trying to save you time.

[Chatto]

@ Annie Bot and Ace/Homebrew; thank you both for your reply. I will definately pick up a third (and maybe even a fourth) Ensnaring Bridge. I will test against Miracles, for I find it a pretty hard MU.

[xieyun006]

@ Annie Bot and Ace/Homebrew; thank you both for your reply. I will definately pick up a third (and maybe even a fourth) Ensnaring Bridge. I will test against Miracles, for I find it a pretty hard MU.

Bridge makes a very interesting sideboard option for Miracles, the few times I've tested bridge against Miracles has been successful, with the exception of a single game where a singleton Keranos bolted me to death. Bridge is great against miracles because it takes away their ability to win out of no where with entreat the angels, and its hard for them to to counterbalance it at CMC 3, so they'll have to have an actual counter for it. If you get a chance you should try it out against RUG, or UWR Delver as well!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Bridge makes a very interesting sideboard option for Miracles

I think you misread Chatto's response. :wink:
I believe he had two separate and unrelated thoughts.

1.) He will pick up more Ensnaring Bridges.

2.) He will test more against Miracles because it is not an easy matchup.


I wouldn't put in Bridge against Miracles because Sulfuric Vortex is SO good against them and having both raises our curve too much. We can afford to up our curve against Sneak and Show because Show and Tell let us cheat on mana too (and protects our attempt to have Bridge stick to the board).

Miracles is probably closer to a 50/50 matchup then you might believe. It is easy to look at a Miracles list and go, 'oh great... CounterTop, I guess you win' but most Miracles hands require a period of time to assemble the soft lock. A double Goblin Guide hand gets damage in too quick for them to recover and landing a Sulfuric Vortex turn 3 is tough for them to beat.
If you have a friend with Miracles, see if he'll test the match with you. Beating the CounterTop soft lock is certainly more of a challenge. Instants are your best friend and it helps to play them in response to drawing with Top or cracking a fetch when Counterbalance is also on the field.

If Jace hits the board, keep your fetchlands to reset the top card after they fateseal you.

It is also very helpful if you have some way to deal with enchantments... I've been including 1 Taiga maindeck to support 3 Destructive Revelry in the side. Against Miracles you can fetch it up without fear of Wasteland.

[adrieng]

Hi I don't have a lot of testing though blazing shoal could be very good maindeck.
Allows more turn three kills and even turn two.
For that you have to play chancellor of the forge which is decent and pyrokinesis which is very good
with all these UR delver in the format and obviously Fireblast.
So you have a zero spell casting cost which can do between 6-7 damage.
Also you can pitch chancellor to pyrokinesis.



4 Blazing Shoal
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Fireblast
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Chain Lightning
4 Hellspark Elemental
20 Mountain

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't have a lot of testing.

4 Blazing Shoal
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Pyrokinesis


Test and report back!

I suspect you'll find:
Creature removal 3-for-1's you on the Blazing Shoal plan.
Chancellor of the Forge is uncastable.
Pyrokinesis can't hit the face.

[scottpou]

I had a deck like this once, but it wasn't burn. You can use cards like greater gargadon to use if your creatures are targeted with removal, those non fetch mountains can sac to it and itself can pitch to shoal. We should keep this thread focused on Burn which can still point to the face like Ace said. Shoal and Swiftspear could be something to look into for another deck though!

[xieyun006]

I think you misread Chatto's response. :wink:
I believe he had two separate and unrelated thoughts.

1.) He will pick up more Ensnaring Bridges.

2.) He will test more against Miracles because it is not an easy matchup.


I wouldn't put in Bridge against Miracles because Sulfuric Vortex is SO good against them and having both raises our curve too much. We can afford to up our curve against Sneak and Show because Show and Tell let us cheat on mana too (and protects our attempt to have Bridge stick to the board).

Miracles is probably closer to a 50/50 matchup then you might believe. It is easy to look at a Miracles list and go, 'oh great... CounterTop, I guess you win' but most Miracles hands require a period of time to assemble the soft lock. A double Goblin Guide hand gets damage in too quick for them to recover and landing a Sulfuric Vortex turn 3 is tough for them to beat.
If you have a friend with Miracles, see if he'll test the match with you. Beating the CounterTop soft lock is certainly more of a challenge. Instants are your best friend and it helps to play them in response to drawing with Top or cracking a fetch when Counterbalance is also on the field.

If Jace hits the board, keep your fetchlands to reset the top card after they fateseal you.

It is also very helpful if you have some way to deal with enchantments... I've been including 1 Taiga maindeck to support 3 Destructive Revelry in the side. Against Miracles you can fetch it up without fear of Wasteland.


LOL you're right I did miss read that!

I'm lucky enough to have two miracles lists in my meta, and both are experienced pilots, but I only test against one. Here is an example: During these games I didn't have vexing shusher in the side yet, so Bridges went in while searing blood came out(I ran a fetchless build at that time, lots of Delver decks, and stifles). Also cut down on Price of Progress, for pyro blasts, and I don't bring in smash to smithereens. Any ways it worked well enough, opened with alot of damage, then I fizzled a bit when counter-top comes in. I resolved bridge through counter-top, he council-ed it away, I tried to land Vortex, he hard counters, and we durdled until my hand was big enough, while he digs for a fetch to reset his top three, I try to sequence two damage through two tops, and one counterbalance, and he stopped it all, and won with Jace.

The important thing here is, bridge can(emphasis implied) come in, speaking for myself, I usually have alot of dead cards against them. Plus we can usually hold enough cards to let guide/shusher attack under it without hindering damage output. I agree that this match up isn't as bad as it seems, but the problem is they blank alot of our cards pre board, and post board they have alot more answers, sure we have nut hands but so do they, the guy I play actually leaves in sword against me, and we bluff each other on bridge vs entreat.

What you are saying about playing around the counter-top lock is very relevent, knowing how to sequence your spells is very important, but if they know what they are doing it makes it extremely hard, especially if they are holding extra brainstorms, or have more than one top on the table. Which was the case in alot of games that I've played.

Any thoughts on Susher for this match up?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Any thoughts on Susher for this match up?

You mentioned that your Miracles pilot leaves Swords in against you. My understanding is Swords gets left in because they have too many dead cards against us and it has at least *some* application. My experience with Shusher in the matchup is that it eats a Swords or gets Terminus'd away. When I include Shusher in my board (which isn't often) I find it is better against the Delver decks.

When playing Miracles I like to leave in the creatures that guarantee damage. So hastey guys and Eidolon. I also keep in most, if not all, Price of Progress. Yes Miracles runs several basics. But the fetches are also used to put new cards on top of the library to exploit with SDTop. If their board is Island, Island, Plains, Fetch, Fetch, Top; use Price! It nets at least 2 damage (when they crack the fetches to avoid taking 4) and it limits their abuse of Top. Price also puts them in a lousy situation as their life total approaches 0. Each fetch on the board is a virtual 1 life lost. They also start to realize FoW isn't as good when it costs 1 life to use.

If your meta is flooded with Miracles and light on Deathrite Shaman, one of the best cards you can use is Hellspark Elemental. If it resolves, it's a lightning bolt. But if it gets CouterTop'd or hard-countered, the next turn you unearth it and all they can do is hope to be holding a Swords.

[xieyun006]

You mentioned that your Miracles pilot leaves Swords in against you. My understanding is Swords gets left in because they have too many dead cards against us and it has at least *some* application. My experience with Shusher in the matchup is that it eats a Swords or gets Terminus'd away. When I include Shusher in my board (which isn't often) I find it is better against the Delver decks.

When playing Miracles I like to leave in the creatures that guarantee damage. So hastey guys and Eidolon. I also keep in most, if not all, Price of Progress. Yes Miracles runs several basics. But the fetches are also used to put new cards on top of the library to exploit with SDTop. If their board is Island, Island, Plains, Fetch, Fetch, Top; use Price! It nets at least 2 damage (when they crack the fetches to avoid taking 4) and it limits their abuse of Top. Price also puts them in a lousy situation as their life total approaches 0. Each fetch on the board is a virtual 1 life lost. They also start to realize FoW isn't as good when it costs 1 life to use.

If your meta is flooded with Miracles and light on Deathrite Shaman, one of the best cards you can use is Hellspark Elemental. If it resolves, it's a lightning bolt. But if it gets CouterTop'd or hard-countered, the next turn you unearth it and all they can do is hope to be holding a Swords.

I agree with the Hellspark suggestion, the problem is there are also three bug decks that run Deathrite :( but even then, its usually not a problem for me, Deathrite is something that I will always kill, even if there is no creatures in the yard, its worth it to keep them off of mana, any ways Hellspark does alot of work, I ended up taking him out for forked bolt, and now Treasure Cruise.

I'll keep in mind what you said about Price, it comes in handy as well, when trying to sequence your spells through Counter-Top.

I think Shusher is a misunderstood card, every time I've boarded in Shusher, I only play him if I can get some use out of him during that turn cycle, it usually goes Shusher, into Fireblast, counter balance trigger, top activation, make fireblast uncounterable, they hard counter in response, I activate shusher again, and game! Well this actually only happened once, I usually don't see shusher:)

Now what I really need in put for is Death and taxes, I have not actually played a full list(there are a few proxied lists, but pilots are modern players, and haven't mastered the deck yet) with my burn deck, there was a guy with the complete deck who have been playing it for years, but I only played him with tezzerator, and never saw him again.

[Chatto]

I think you misread Chatto's response. :wink:
I believe he had two separate and unrelated thoughts.

1.) He will pick up more Ensnaring Bridges.

2.) He will test more against Miracles because it is not an easy matchup.


(...)

It is also very helpful if you have some way to deal with enchantments... I've been including 1 Taiga maindeck to support 3 Destructive Revelry in the side. Against Miracles you can fetch it up without fear of Wasteland.

Jup, sorry for not being all to clear :smile:

I was wondering if it was possible to splash, I will look into it... I like to have some cards against enchantments.



Any thoughts on Susher for this match up?



I think Shusher is a misunderstood card, every time I've boarded in Shusher, I only play him if I can get some use out of him during that turn cycle, it usually goes Shusher, into Fireblast, counter balance trigger, top activation, make fireblast uncounterable, they hard counter in response, I activate shusher again, and game! Well this actually only happened once, I usually don't see shusher:)

I completely misunderstood Vexing Shusher. The way I thought it worked is you pay one red/green extra and your spell being cast can't be countered by spells or abilties, i.e. in general so not for each spell or ablity separately. Makes me reconsider Vexing Shusher in general.

[xieyun006]

I completely misunderstood Vexing Shusher. The way I thought it worked is you pay one red/green extra and your spell being cast can't be countered by spells or abilties, i.e. in general so not for each spell or ablity separately. Makes me reconsider Vexing Shusher in general.

Yeah I wish it was worded 'the next spell you play' but its not, its still the only guaranteed way to break through counter-top. I'm keeping him in because I've lost enough games with my opponent within bolt range.

[Annie Bot]

Jup, sorry for not being all to clear :smile:
I completely misunderstood Vexing Shusher. The way I thought it worked is you pay one red/green extra and your spell being cast can't be countered by spells or abilties, i.e. in general so not for each spell or ablity separately. Makes me reconsider Vexing Shusher in general.

The way they explained it was a little confusing. Vexing Shusher does prevent all counters from countering the spell you Shushered with - the issue they were describing was when you spell, they counter, you shusher, they counter again, and you have to shusher one last time because all this is taking place in the stack (or the counterbalance interaction being shusher before counterbalance resolution, they counter again, you shusher again). Shusher can only prevent all counters after resolution, so if they have a counter on top of your activation their counter will go through before your activation.

Each advocate for shusher stated their intended purpose was only to have him last for one turn within bolt/fireblast range which I agree is the most appropriate way to use him if you're going to use him due to all of their creature removal (generally package of 7-8 with a possible 10-12 flashing back with Snapcast Mage). Because of this extremely limited use and the general conception that "best player wins" in Burn vs. Miralces aside from nut hands this is why I recommended the Ashen Riders. They are able to come in for a few different combo decks and make what would be an unwinnable game 'easily' won (EB suffers from bounce and general removal). In the end you just gotta weigh the pros and cons of each and decide if you want one, the other, or neither for your flex spots though.

As for splashing, splashing in burn for the most part is considered a no-go. It makes the deck a lot worse with little if any relevant benefit. The exception to this rule is the 1-of Taiga Ace / Homebrew mentioned where you have enchantment hate in the board (something burn has been craving for a very long time). This is what also attracted me to BR burn running Taiga and Badlands for Abrupt Decay. If you're going to go w/ the splash the gentler touch of Taiga for Destructive Revelry is strictly better. Sadly Bump in the Night and Tyrant's Choice pose more risk than perceived reward. Spashs have been tried for U as well, but tournament results show this is also just a weaker burn deck. Splashs for W have recently been tried by Maximum C, just a few pages back - he has local tourney postings and issues have been debated. Believe that covers all the colors.

I wish I had more to offer to the thread than opinions and rehashing, hopefully I can find us the next diamond in the rough when Fate Reforged gets spoiled.

[xieyun006]

I recommended the Ashen Riders. They are able to come in for a few different combo decks and make what would be an unwinnable game 'easily' won (EB suffers from bounce and general removal).

I used to run Ashen Riders in the side as well, but have taken them out, due to show and tell players quiting magic in my area, I'm interested to know what other deck they can come in against?

My reasoning for bridge is that it can come in against RUG(if I decide to take Relic out of my board) Its also playable against D+T as well as stoneforge decks, and I've had mild success against Miracles as well as Reanimator(They blew alot of counter magic on my grave hate, and had not killed me by turn three). I've also brought it in against elves, but have had no success in that match up.

I can agree with most of what you said about splashing in burn, it opens you up to wasteland, and dilutes the deck too much, I have tried the white splash and it didn't not work out for me at all. I am trying a blue splash at the moment for Treasure Cruise and it has been amazing so far. I've had games where I've been pulled into the late game, and just lost while topdecking lands, and Cruise fixes that very well.

[Chatto]

The only splash I would consider is the one which gives me access to enchantment-hate, so that would be either Green or White. Green has Destructive Revelry, which looks like to fit Burn's philosophy better I think. That said, I think I will stick to Mono-Red for this moment, so to get a better feel of the deck.

[MaximumC]

Spashs for W have recently been tried by Maximum C, just a few pages back - he has local tourney postings and issues have been debated. Believe that covers all the colors.


Yeah, I'm still not sold on the arguments that a splash is really all that bad. In mono-red, you run the risk of an opponent simply dropping Leyline or some new anti-Delver tech like Energy Storm, and then you're hosed. I am a big advocate of the philosophy that a burn deck wants to win fast and win now, and that Jeskai Swiftspear makes this a very reliable gameplan. Your opponent using a wasteland on one of your mana sources should be a big losing proposition for them unless it was your only mana source because it will slow the game down while your burn engine keeps on trucking. Not to mention the fact that Boros Charm is so much better than Flame Rift against anyone who tries to race you.

I guess it depends which games you want to lose. The games where you only draw 1 mana source and it's a nonbasic, nonfetch, or those where your opponent drops a hate enchantment. Wasteland might be prevalent, but the games where it is going to hurt you are rarer than the games you actually see it.

[Annie Bot]

I used to run Ashen Riders in the side as well, but have taken them out, due to show and tell players quiting magic in my area, I'm interested to know what other deck they can come in against?

It's live against Omnitell and other SnT variants, not a huge range of decks to bring them out against but your right this is more of a meta call for your area where here it's still an issue.


Yeah, I'm still not sold on the arguments that a splash is really all that bad. In mono-red, you run the risk of an opponent simply dropping Leyline or some new anti-Delver tech like Energy Storm, and then you're hosed. I am a big advocate of the philosophy that a burn deck wants to win fast and win now, and that Jeskai Swiftspear makes this a very reliable gameplan. Your opponent using a wasteland on one of your mana sources should be a big losing proposition for them unless it was your only mana source because it will slow the game down while your burn engine keeps on trucking. Not to mention the fact that Boros Charm is so much better than Flame Rift against anyone who tries to race you.

I guess it depends which games you want to lose. The games where you only draw 1 mana source and it's a nonbasic, nonfetch, or those where your opponent drops a hate enchantment. Wasteland might be prevalent, but the games where it is going to hurt you are rarer than the games you actually see it.

I wasn't trying to spark a new debate on WR burn, just letting him know where to get started should he decide to explore that route, I believe we already covered the most important issues. As for the other notes Flame Rift ( in my deck at least ) was replaced with Searing Blaze. Leyline isn't complete GG just by being on the field. We still have targetless damage (PoP, SV, and Eidolon) as well as creature damage. Would essentially the same for Energy Storm aside from eventually getting to cast all your instants and sorceries when they ditch to upkeep using GL > PoP in the meantime.

[Lyle Hopkins]

So, I took my White/Red Burn deck to another Legacy tournament, and went 4-0, winning it for the second time in a row. This time the matchups were against a wider variety of decks.

What's the advantage of splashing white instead of green for Destructive Revelry?

[MaximumC]

What's the advantage of splashing white instead of green for Destructive Revelry?

Boros Charm, basically.

Well, that, and the fact that Erase or Wear // Tear nuke enchantments for only W, which leaves you more room to keep burning at the same time. Or, and this is sometimes critical, have a R for a Red Blast to defend your removal.

You could also use Lightning Helix for the mirror, I guess, but that seems like really terrible idea. :)

[xieyun006]

What's the advantage of splashing white instead of green for Destructive Revelry?

Depending on your meta, you can also run O-ring in yourside board, and hard cast it from your hand for additional artifact/enchantment hate, and its decent against show and tell decks as well.

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been seeing Burn everywhere lately. What's happening?

[xieyun006]

I've been seeing Burn everywhere lately. What's happening?

Meta shift, burn is in a really good place right now.

[MaximumC]

Depending on your meta, you can also run O-ring in yourside board, and hard cast it from your hand for additional artifact/enchantment hate, and its decent against show and tell decks as well.

O-Ring is legitimate hate for Show and Tell, but I don't like it because it's so utterly narrow. 3 mana is a pretty tall order in a burn deck, and so you're almost never going to get any use out of it except when it's in your hand and they go for Show and Tell. I prefer making the deck fast enough to demand that they have to combo out in the first three turns or lose, and then board into the quad Red Blast plan. Blasts are more versatile anyway.

[xieyun006]

O-Ring is legitimate hate for Show and Tell, but I don't like it because it's so utterly narrow. 3 mana is a pretty tall order in a burn deck, and so you're almost never going to get any use out of it except when it's in your hand and they go for Show and Tell. I prefer making the deck fast enough to demand that they have to combo out in the first three turns or lose, and then board into the quad Red Blast plan. Blasts are more versatile anyway.

I agree thats why I stopped playing O-ring...well I stoped playing the white in burn. When I started playing burn that was my mindset as well, forcing your opponents to race, but after a while, I realized that sometimes you just have to chill out and play a little differently. Have you tried any of the combo decks in Legacy? They might be up your ally, super fast clock, minimal interaction.

[MaximumC]

I agree thats why I stopped playing O-ring...well I stoped playing the white in burn. When I started playing burn that was my mindset as well, forcing your opponents to race, but after a while, I realized that sometimes you just have to chill out and play a little differently. Have you tried any of the combo decks in Legacy? They might be up your ally, super fast clock, minimal interaction.

These are the only Legacy decks I've played to any degree:

The Gate (my old standby, sadly sucks donkey in this meta)
Maverick
Elves (love it, now it's mad popular though)
Oops all Spells
UWR Delver
Burn

So it's a pretty broad meta. When I'm talking about racing in burn, I'm considering that to be a legitimate answer to a format where the top dog is basically a slower version of burn with virtually the same creature base + Delver.

[Lyle Hopkins]

What does everyone think about Dualcaster Mage?

[MaximumC]

What does everyone think about Dualcaster Mage?

Love the card in general, can't see what a creature that costs 3 mana and requires something else to be going on to be playable works at all in Burn.

[Darkenslight]

Love the card in general, can't see what a creature that costs 3 mana and requires something else to be going on to be playable works at all in Burn.

He's hilarious with Feldon of the Third Path, though. Though, that isn't a very good card except for shenanigans.

[Annie Bot]

Was wondering what everybody thought about possibly placing Pithing Needle in the flex spot for the board? I know it's been glanced over in several different articles but nobody seems to be willing to try it out. Possible answer to Sneak Attack with Ensnaring Bridge for Show and Tell, as well as against miracles naming Sensei's Divining Top to help slow them down. I saw people trying Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for these decks, but this seems like it would end in a counter war which may or may not be better. Pithing Needle also seems like it would be able to hit more of a variety of decks. Trash, decent, or ermagerhd?

[xieyun006]

So what are we packing for storm hate now a days? or is the four eidolon maindeck enough?

[David Kaplan]

With the strong push for UR Delver to drop countermagic for more Burn, is Burn w/ Cruise not just stronger? This opens up Volcanic Fallout.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
--12 THREAT

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Volcanic Fallout
--26 BURN

3 Treasure Cruise
0 Gitaxian Probe
--3 DRAW

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
--19 MANA

4 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Null Rod
--15 SIDEBOARD

[Chatto]

Was wondering what everybody thought about possibly placing Pithing Needle in the flex spot for the board? I know it's been glanced over in several different articles but nobody seems to be willing to try it out. Possible answer to Sneak Attack with Ensnaring Bridge for Show and Tell, as well as against miracles naming Sensei's Divining Top to help slow them down. I saw people trying Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for these decks, but this seems like it would end in a counter war which may or may not be better. Pithing Needle also seems like it would be able to hit more of a variety of decks. Trash, decent, or ermagerhd?

Pithing Needle was and still is my first choice in the flexspot. It's pretty good against Planeswalkers, SDT, DRS, Thespian's Stage etc etc. And yes, it has a broader use against more decks


So what are we packing for storm hate now a days? or is the four eidolon maindeck enough?

After some goldfishing I would like to have some more cards in my SB against Storm, but it's tight as it is... Just aggressive mulling to Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Relic of Progenitus out of the board.

Still not sure if I want to splash Green for Destructive Revelry? Opinions?

[xieyun006]

Pithing Needle was and still is my first choice in the flexspot. It's pretty good against Planeswalkers, SDT, DRS, Thespian's Stage etc etc. And yes, it has a broader use against more decks



After some goldfishing I would have some more cards in my SB against Storm, but it's tight as it is... Just aggressive mulling to Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Relic of Progenitus out of the board.

Still not sure if I want to splash Green for Destructive Revelry? Opinions?

What would revelry do for the storm match up? I was going to splash green for revelry but decided against it because the decks that you want to bring revelry in against are also really good at messing with you mana base e.g. UWR delver to kill their equipments, fish for chalice and vial, and D&T to hit their vial, and equipments, but all these decks usually have wasteland, or port, forcing you to fetch only before you cast, and you'll usually only cast one, unless you are splashing two taigas.

I also splashed for Cruise a while ago, I was amazing, but it could be a bit awkward at times because you only want to fetch the Volc right before you cast Cruise, and that'll be several turns in, so that means holding that fetch for a while, or hoping that you'll draw into another one soon. I don't think Cruise is worth running right now anyways since its everywhere so you'll be taking splash damage from that hate.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Great new Burn article by Patrick Sullivan on SCG:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29714_Burning-Down-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey.html

The article features a couple sample lists and some sideboard strategy. I really dig the mono-red list, but I might consider dropping the Flame Rifts in the sideboard for 3 copies of Relic of Progenitus and one more Smash to Smithereens.

[Chatto]

What would revelry do for the storm match up? I was going to splash green for revelry but decided against it because the decks that you want to bring revelry in against are also really good at messing with you mana base e.g. UWR delver to kill their equipments, fish for chalice and vial, and D&T to hit their vial, and equipments, but all these decks usually have wasteland, or port, forcing you to fetch only before you cast, and you'll usually only cast one, unless you are splashing two taigas. (...)

Revelry does nothing against Storm, although it can sometimes mess up their sequencing. No, I just was thinking about splashing and wanted to know the general opinion :smile:

[Ace/Homebrew]

What would revelry do for the storm match up?
I think you mis-read again. :smile:

Two separate thoughts:
1.) "After some goldfishing I would have some more cards in my SB against Storm, but it's tight as it is..."

2.) "Still not sure if I want to splash Green for Destructive Revelry? Opinions?"

Going back through recent posts:
I also enjoyed Patrick Sullivan's article, and I agree with Lyle's changes.
I have had success with Destructive Revelry, but I am the only one here saying that... so take that for what it's worth.
Pithing Needle is a very decent sideboard card!
I believe 4 Eidolon maindeck is enough dedicated Storm Hate right now. Storm isn't really prevalent in the meta.
@David Kaplan
Are you just posting a list for feedback? Have you tested it? What are your thoughts on it? Why would you list '0 Gitaxian Probe'?
Your post probably could have just been:

With the strong push for UR Delver to drop countermagic for more Burn, is Burn w/ Cruise not just stronger? This opens up Volcanic Fallout.

[ceustice]

I have been on the Rg for Destructive Revelry for 6 months and love it. There is an above average amount of Leyline in my meta but I imagine even in the normal world its still great.

[Chatto]

@ceustice and Ace/Homebrew: how much Taiga's do you play? I tend to go for two, just to be on the safe side.

[ceustice]

@ceustice and Ace/Homebrew: how much Taiga's do you play? I tend to go for two, just to be on the safe side.

Only 2. My mana base right now is 10 mountain 2 Taiga, 8 fetch. I was for a very long time on the 12 fetch 8 targets plan but with the increased amount of Burn and UR Delver I didn't like the amount of damage taken.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I think you mis-read again. :smile:

Two separate thoughts:
1.) "After some goldfishing I would have some more cards in my SB against Storm, but it's tight as it is..."

2.) "Still not sure if I want to splash Green for Destructive Revelry? Opinions?"

Going back through recent posts:
I also enjoyed Patrick Sullivan's article, and I agree with Lyle's changes.
I have had success with Destructive Revelry, but I am the only one here saying that... so take that for what it's worth.
Pithing Needle is a very decent sideboard card!
I believe 4 Eidolon maindeck is enough dedicated Storm Hate right now. Storm isn't really prevalent in the meta.
@David Kaplan
Are you just posting a list for feedback? Have you tested it? What are your thoughts on it? Why would you list '0 Gitaxian Probe'?
Your post probably could have just been:

There was a guy in my play group running two Taigas and Destructive Revelry in the board. If I was facing Leyline of Sanctity everyday, I would probably run something similar.

I also agree that Pithing Needle is an excellent sideboard card. Specifically against U/W Miracles, shutting off Sensei's Divining Top can be huge.

[Chatto]

Don't forget you can side Pithing Needle in against S&T ( a difficult MU for Burn) as well, naming Sneak Attack. Naming Thespian's Stage can buy you some time against (Rg) Lands (but we can burn them out already of course). The card can be used in abundance, so to speak :smile:

[Ace/Homebrew]

@ceustice and Ace/Homebrew: how much Taiga's do you play? I tend to go for two, just to be on the safe side.

I run a singleton Taiga.

My mana base is:
10 Mountains
9 :r: fetch lands
1 Taiga

3 Destructive Revelry in the sideboard are the only :g: in the deck.

[xieyun006]

I was going to splash green for revelry but decided against it because the decks that you want to bring revelry in against are also really good at messing with you mana base e.g. UWR delver to kill their equipments, fish for chalice and vial, and D&T to hit their vial, and equipments, but all these decks usually have wasteland, or port, forcing you to fetch only before you cast, and you'll usually only cast one, unless you are splashing two taigas.


I'll shut my big mouth now, just lost to Leyline of don't touch me there, I am now splashing green for revelry, NEVER AGAIN stupid enchantments!

[Chatto]

I'll shut my big mouth now, just lost to Leyline of don't touch me there, I am now splashing green for revelry, NEVER AGAIN stupid enchantments!

Ok, this was the sign I needed... I will be splashing as well :laugh:

[Lyle Hopkins]

Ok, this was the sign I needed... I will be splashing as well :laugh:

I haven't been seeing much Wasteland on SCG coverage recently. If you're going to splash, now seems like a great opportunity.

[Chatto]

Hello fellow Burn-players!

Today I played the Dutch Championships. I didn't make extendid notes, but went 3-3.

r1: against Maarten (a member of our test-team) with Infest. First game I got greedy, got him to 11 and then he attacked with a pumped Nexus, doing me in. Second en third game I got removed creatures or tried to (all in his turn, so he was forced to use his pump and what not), while dealing damage. 2-1 W

r2: against Sander with S&T. First game I got to burn him out. I only saw a Fow and a Ancient Tomb, so I boarded in my Ensnaring Bridge. Unfortunately I never drew them, and he just got God-hands... 1-2 L

r3: against Balthasar (also a member of our test-team) with Miracles, with Energy Field/ RiP-combo: he drew everything and that was that... Just plain stupid... 0-2 L

r4 against Christian (aka Gobolord) with Goblins: first game I burn him out. Second game he had Chalice on one. I didn't see that one coming, so didn't board accordingly. Third game he plays Chalice on one, but I sided my Destructive Revelry, but only draw Mountains and no fetch. He then plays a second Chalice on two... 1-2 L

r5 against Bart with mono U Painter: this one is a bit blurry. I think he got the first game. In the second or third game I know he has this combo, so I side Pithing Needle and Destructive Revelry. I think it was in the third game that he assembled the combo, but he didn't named a color when playing Painter's Servant... I got extremely lucky here! 2-1/ 2-0 W

r6 against Jamie with Storm: game one he goes off... Nothing to do about it. Knowing he is on Storm I board in my Relic of Progenitus. The second game I aggressively mull for Eidolon of the Great Revel. While they of course eat removal it severely slows him down. I get in with burn and Monastery Swiftspear for the win. The third game was pretty weird. I get him down to 10 very quickly, and then we both draw lands for a couple of turns, all the time I'm using Relic on his GY. Then I draw into burn and go for the win.

After that, I decide to drop, as I was nowhere near top 16, and I wanted to eat something and go home.

Creatures (11)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Spells (27)
3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt

Other spells (2)
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands (20)
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Searing Blood
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Destructive Revelry


Some thoughts:
- Now I do have Goblin Guide, but friends of mine talked me into playing Monastery Swiftspear, and I must say: it served me well. Apart from the first attack she was mostly 2+ p/t. I will keep her in my build. It made opponents think and act differently, wanting to kill it on sight or counter(!) it.
- The splash is definately worth it. While I was extremely unlucky it is really really good to be able to hit enchantments. I will up my count of Taiga's to two. And yes, I only really saw Wasteland in Goblins. The card is not played that much right now (or I was lucky to dodge it).

All in all, this deck is a blast to play... However, I saw that people are packing up more hate against Red, because of Ur Delver. Most significant is this little bugger: Kor Firewalker. I didn't have to play against this card, but how would you deal with it?

[Ace/Homebrew]

However, I saw that people are packing up more hate against Red, because of Ur Delver. Most significant is this little bugger: Kor Firewalker. I didn't have to play against this card, but how would you deal with it?

Dismember, but it hurts to play...

Combust and Skullcrack would also work.

[WorldslayerGuy]

Combust and Skullcrack would also work.

Combust would not. Protection, among other things, means you can't target it. If Firewalker does start cropping up more and more, Dismember is pretty much your best bet.

Been playing a list on MTGO. Will post it later.

[LeoCop 90]

Combust doesn't work because you can't target a pro-red creature with a red spell...

If you cast a skullcrack after they blocked your guide/eidolon with firewalker he dies in combat because the damage he received can't be prevented.

Another option is pyrite spellbomb.... slower than dismember but can go to the face and that's very relevant.

[WorldslayerGuy]

As promised, here's the deck I've been playing on MTGO


4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blood
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

17 Mountain

SIDEBOARD

4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Ashen Rider
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher


A few things about my list:

1. "No Grim Lavamancer? n00b!" Look, I know it's considered a pillar of the deck. It shores up the game against Elves. It's recurring damage. I don't care, I don't like the card.

2. Lack of fetches is due to being a father of three. Thus, very limited funds for Magic.

3. Swiftspear has been very good to me. Most games, it's at least 3-5 damage. Some games it hits double digits.

4. I want to move at least one Vortex to the board. Not sure what I'll put in yet.

5. Probably going to cut the Shushers from the board. Might toss in some Pyroblasts to replace them.

6. Seriously, I don't like Lavamancer. My deck runs fine without it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Combust doesn't work because you can't target a pro-red creature with a red spell...

If you cast a skullcrack after they blocked your guide/eidolon with firewalker he dies in combat because the damage he received can't be prevented.

Yeah, my bad... :rolleyes:

[balthasar]

- The splash is definately worth it. While I was extremely unlucky it is really really good to be able to hit enchantments. I will up my count of Taiga's to two. And yes, I only really saw Wasteland in Goblins. The card is not played that much right now (or I was lucky to dodge it).

The green splash is definitively good, but my counter on Destructive Revelry did you in. Krosan Grip might also be a good sb option.

[Chatto]

The green splash is definitively good, but my counter on Destructive Revelry did you in. Krosan Grip might also be a good sb option.

Well, I was thinking about Krosan Grip too... I will get you for that one counter :tongue:

[xieyun006]

As promised, here's the deck I've been playing on MTGO


4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blood
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

17 Mountain

SIDEBOARD

4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Ashen Rider
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher


A few things about my list:

1. "No Grim Lavamancer? n00b!" Look, I know it's considered a pillar of the deck. It shores up the game against Elves. It's recurring damage. I don't care, I don't like the card.

2. Lack of fetches is due to being a father of three. Thus, very limited funds for Magic.

3. Swiftspear has been very good to me. Most games, it's at least 3-5 damage. Some games it hits double digits.

4. I want to move at least one Vortex to the board. Not sure what I'll put in yet.

5. Probably going to cut the Shushers from the board. Might toss in some Pyroblasts to replace them.

6. Seriously, I don't like Lavamancer. My deck runs fine without it.

The lack of Lavamancer isn't a big deal, my question is how is your deck running with three vortex, and only 17 lands?

[WorldslayerGuy]

The lack of Lavamancer isn't a big deal, my question is how is your deck running with three vortex, and only 17 lands?

Hasn't been too much of a problem. Yeah, occasionally one gets stuck in my hand for a few turns, but given that it's the high water mark for the deck, I'm usually casting plenty of other things as well. I used to have an 18th Mountain in the board, mostly to bring in for long match-ups like Miracles, but I've yet to have any extended periods of mana screw.

[Zombie]

I'll shut my big mouth now, just lost to Leyline of don't touch me there, I am now splashing green for revelry, NEVER AGAIN stupid enchantments!

As an Elves player, Leyline is near the top of my hate list. It's insanely frustrating to lose to Show & Derp who just lucksack into Leyline. Yay, blanking a 2 piece combo deck's natural Achilles' Heel (discard) for no mana/tempo investment and past discard/counters. Extra fun when mulliganing into discard is either absurdly good or you just mulled into 2 total blanks because randomness. Fuck that card. Just fuck that card.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Congratulations to Oliver Coffey for a top eight finish with Burn.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77169

[Basara]

Congratulations to Oliver Coffey for a top eight finish with Burn.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77169

Worst burn player i had seen

[Scott]

Has anyone played with a Burn deck like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883)? I like the feel of it in testing, and I'm wondering what people's impressions of this sort of thing have been.

// Instants
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze

// Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Tyrant's Choice

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide

// Enchantments
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sylvan Library
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Destructive Revelry
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Electrickery
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Searing Blood

[BlakLanner]

I think it adds a lot of vulnerabilities while not adding nearly as many benefits. I don't think running Price of Progress with that many dual is wise. One of the big reasons that we can get away with playing it is because we run with so few, if any, dual lands to damage us. DRS is a solid card that I used to great effect in my burn decks before its banning in Modern and adding black makes Tyrant's Choice an obvious inclusion but I am not sure that it is enough to warrant such a shift as opposed to just playing Punishing Jund at that point.

As far as running a list with an off color, I have been experimenting with a "Cruise Burn" variant. This is about as far as I would go with a blue splash. Any more and I would be better off running UR Delver.

http://deckstats.net/decks/3589/161437-cruise-burn/en
Creatures
3 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise

Lands
8 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Flame Rift
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex

[PhyrexianPossum]

On the topic of splashing: I've been tinkering with Rakdos burn, specifically the card Spike Jester and Dark Confidant. My list is this:

//Creature (12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Spike Jester

//Enchantment Creature (4)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

//Instant (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze

//Sorcery (16)
4 Bump in the Night
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Tyrant's Choice
2 Rift Bolt

//Land (20)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Flame Rift
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict


Tyrant's Choice is absurdly good as a one-sided flame rift. Confidant is a great card advantage engine that's also a decent bear, and Spike Jester is just a repeatable bolt against everything but Goyf decks, where you're going to sie it out anyways.

Rakdos Charm is an amazingly versatile card that comes in often.

Thoughts? This build has been doing very well for me in my last couple of FNMs.

[Chatto]

On the topic of splashing: I've been tinkering with Rakdos burn,

(...)

Thoughts? This build has been doing very well for me in my last couple of FNMs.

I can see why you would like to play Bob, but I don't like it. But if it works, it works :smile: Personally, I would only splash for artifact- and enchantment hate.

You guys have seen this list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8744&d=249952&f=LE)?

[Krimson Viper]

^
That's an interesting take on Burn. Takes advantage of Treasure Cruise, for sure. I was just thinking of having Simian Spirit Guide to speed up to a turn one Eidolon, or super secret tech for Daze payments.

I've noticed more and more players main decking Hydroblast. Anyone notice this as well?

[Captain Hammer]

Glad to see I was vindicated about my insistence that Eidolon of the Great Revel is going to be amazing in this deck back when that card was first spoiled. :tongue:

Speaking of spoiled cards, I really love the idea of playing Mardu Scout in this deck.

Dealing 3 hasty damage to your opponent each turn they fail to leave a blocker up for just two mana seems strong.

Mardu Scout RR
Dash 1R
3/1

What do you guys think?


Before dismissing the suggestion off hand, recall that there was a while that Viashino Sandscout was a fairly popular choice in legacy burn decks, and that card is vastly vastly inferior to Mardu Scout.

[Krimson Viper]

Not a big fan of the scout. It doesn't have trample. Hellspark Elemental is no longer played in this deck, which can very much be argued that it's a superior version of scout and its Unearth ability can't be countered and doesn't activate Eidolon. Scout, from what I understand, doesn't do that.

[Captain Hammer]

Hellspark Elemental is a good comparison.

It's advantages are...

It can't be countered - But that's pretty much irrelevent. Every other burn spell in the deck can be countered, so it's not like their counters won't have other targets. It doesn't matter what they counter, with the exception of Fireblast almost all the spells in the deck deal 3 damage. In fact, it would be better if they do counter Hellspark rather than save that counter for Fireblast or Eideon.

It saves you 2 life under a Eidolon. While there's a few situations where those 2 points of life matter, it's very rare for burn to get outburned. It loses the game usually due to running out of steam, not due to lack of life.


Scout's advantages are...

It's immune to graveyard hate. Thus, against the multitude of decks that play Deathrite Shaman where Hellspark can be a liability (netting only 1 damage for your two mana and 1 card investment), Scout isn't. DRS is one of the main reasons that Hellspark fell out of favor.

While it's comparable to a ever recurring Hellspark vs creature based decks, it can also be hardcast as a regular 3/1 for RR against creatureless decks. There are situations where this is the correct route to go, in order to do more damage over a few turns with a lower mana investment while using that mana to cast your other burn spells.

It can help avoid one of the pitfalls of burn decks, the propensity to run out of steam. Scout can act as a solid finisher against decks that don't play many creatures.

[Brael]

Been playing burn for the better part of a decade now, don't think I've ever thought to post in here though. Here's the list I'm currently on.

Land 19
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
1 Taiga

Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Rift Bolt
1 Runeflare Trap

Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Runeflare Trap


I'm a little more creature heavy than most, but my view on it is that when the creatures are as good as they are, and Lava Spike is as bad as it is... why not play the creatures? I'll take the extra vulnerability to removal in exchange for a bit more power. Has anyone thought about Collateral Damage? I'm really liking it, I've cast plenty of Reckless Abandons and getting one at instant speed is great, there's just so much you can do with it like swing into a Batterskull or Griselbrand and sacrifice whatever is blocked, or block a Batterskull and sacrifice the blocker. You can kill an Eidolon that has backfired, it puts 2 in the yard for a post combat Lavamancer activation, and there's the general utility of it just being another instant speed Bolt. I'm thinking about running two, probably over 1 Skullcrack due to the sacrifices meaning I don't need to prevent as much lifegain and 1 Rift Bolt because it's the worst card.

[Chatto]

Been playing burn for the better part of a decade now, don't think I've ever thought to post in here though. Here's the list I'm currently on.

Land 19
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
1 Taiga

Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Rift Bolt
1 Runeflare Trap

Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Runeflare Trap



Hi Brael, while I'm not as experienced with Burn as you are, but here are my 2cents:

Interesting list, in particular Runeflare Trap and Skullcrack. How did Runeflare Trap perform for you? The creature-heavy burn is something I was considering as well, and yes Collateral Damage could substitute like Rift Bolt or perhaps Lave Spike (which I'm still running). Will definitely be testing that card as well :smile:

Because of Monastery Swiftspear I was also thinking of other cards to go well with it, i.e. ''free spells''. Cards that came to mind are:

- Gitaxian Probe
- Lotus Petal
- Cave-In

All those cards have their limitations, of course. Personally I would opt for Lotus Petal. I know that Burn-purists will condemn me for this :laugh: What do you guys think?

Speaking of interesting lists, have people noticed these last Burn lists? There are two splashing Blue for Treasure Cruise (here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78520) and here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78711)), and one list more traditional (only more creature light (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78518), read 11 instead of 13 I'm considering now)

[Brael]

Hi Brael, while I'm not as experienced with Burn as you are, but here are my 2cents:

Interesting list, in particular Runeflare Trap and Skullcrack. How did Runeflare Trap perform for you? The creature-heavy burn is something I was considering as well, and yes Collateral Damage could substitute like Rift Bolt or perhaps Lave Spike (which I'm still running). Will definitely be testing that card as well

Well, Runeflare Trap is probably a bit greedy MB. Typically I run just one in the SB to upgrade a Rift Bolt if I'm against Blue but with Cruise being as ubiquitous as it is, having another copy in the MB is quite strong even if it is dead in some matches. Skullcrack is the lowest quality burn spell but I like having a way to stop lifegain. If you stop a single DRS activation or a Batterskull or a Griselbrand it has justified itself.


Because of Monastery Swiftspear I was also thinking of other cards to go well with it, i.e. ''free spells''. Cards that came to mind are:

- Gitaxian Probe
- Lotus Petal
- Cave-In


For a little while I ran Probes for the information and to have "56" cards, which let me cut a bad spell and fuel Lavamancer without fetches. Eventually I got rid of them though. The problem with a card like Probe is that you don't know what the card that replaces it is going to be, and that makes evaluating your hand more difficult. I think Swiftspear is fine as it is, it adds 1 damage to all of your burn spells essentially. Do you really need to do more? Another problem is that if you add cards that do nothing without Swiftspear you make your deck worse when you don't have it. You'll only draw it in 50% of games, and it will only stick on the field in some percentage of those where as more bolts are still bolts.


All those cards have their limitations, of course. Personally I would opt for Lotus Petal. I know that Burn-purists will condemn me for this :laugh: What do you guys think?

Sam Black just recently posted a video on SCG Premium of Treasure Burn, he used Probe, Brainstorm, and Lotus Petal to fuel Cruises with the rest being burn spells. He ended up going 0-4 and several times he would have had the win if that Lotus Petal was a burn spell instead of a 0 damage spell.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Speaking of interesting lists, have people noticed these last Burn lists? There are two splashing Blue for Treasure Cruise (here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78520) and here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78711)), and one list more traditional (only more creature light (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78518), read 11 instead of 13 I'm considering now)

Back to the Blue drawing board for them, I guess.

However, staying on the blue theme, does anyone have any experience of splashing Black and Blue for Bump and Brainstorm?

2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
(19 Land)

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Flame Rift
3 Lava Spike
3 Rift Bolt
3 Bump in the Night
4 Echoing Truth
4 Brainstorm
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Innocent Blood
3 Rakdos Charm

---

I guess both MB and SB are tuned for FNM at my local LGS: CounterTop, Iona, Jund, Show/Sneak. UR Delver also but I see them probably moving to Jund now.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

4 Spike Jester

SB: 3 Diabolic Edict



You've got me thinking!

Questions:

How often did the Jester survive to attack twice?
I find that I only use the sacrifice mechanic when there's a single big nasty on their side and an Innocent Blood for B is more efficient than 1B for Edict. Is the instant that much better than sorcery speed?
How do you match up against the usual suspects (Miracles, UR, etc.)?


Thanks

[bigwerdz]

Hello everyone. I have been looking at tournament results on scg and I've noticed most the burn lists getting printed have been running monastary swiftspear over grim lavamancer. Ever since the card got printed I thought this was a bad idea given the little gains from swiftspear and what you lose by not playing the lavaman. Is this the general concensus here that swiftspear is better then lavamancer? I'll be playing legacy at scg indy and was just curious on everyones thoughts. I have been playing burn for a little over a year with pretty good results at my lgs and other smallish tourneys in the area. How happy is everyone with the chance for bug delver to come back now that t-cruise is gone? I know I'm looking forward to more giant PoP's in the near future!

[Brael]

Hello everyone. I have been looking at tournament results on scg and I've noticed most the burn lists getting printed have been running monastary swiftspear over grim lavamancer. Ever since the card got printed I thought this was a bad idea given the little gains from swiftspear and what you lose by not playing the lavaman. Is this the general concensus here that swiftspear is better then lavamancer? I'll be playing legacy at scg indy and was just curious on everyones thoughts. I have been playing burn for a little over a year with pretty good results at my lgs and other smallish tourneys in the area. How happy is everyone with the chance for bug delver to come back now that t-cruise is gone? I know I'm looking forward to more giant PoP's in the near future!

I think Swiftspear is better, there's a few reasons for it.

The first is that provided you can swing Swiftspear will always hit for some damage, this gives it a minimum damage of 1 where a Lavamancer has a minimum damage of 0.

Next is that due to Fireblast and often times wanting to hold up instants, not to mention the way mana develops our spell casts when things go on plan are strongly weighted towards the final turn. If you take a typical mana development of making your land drops on turns 1, 2, and 4 you'll have 8 mana over the course of the game (1-2-2-3). Assuming the Lavamancer is cast at his most beneficial time of turn 1 that means you have 7 mana for spells, but that 3 of those spells (4 with a Fireblast) are coming all on turn 4. Lavamancer needs to come down early, then you need to keep a steady pace in order to use him. With Swiftspear it can come down on turn 3 if you want (such as if it's topdecked) and still benefit from the majority of spells in your hand.

Another mark in Swiftspears favor is that if you play a more instant heavy list like I do (23 instants), you can counter an opponents Lightning Bolt on your Swiftspear with two spells of your own though this usually takes 3 mana.

Last is the damage dealt during a game. Lets say you're on a gameplan of a turn 4 win. If Lavamancer comes down on turn 1 and everything goes correctly he hits for:
T1 - 0
T2 - 2
T3 - 2
T4 - 2
Total - 6

Now look at Swiftspear. We'll say you got 3 lands. T4 means you've drawn Swiftspear and 9 other cards. Lets say 1 of those is a creature and 3 are lands. That means 5 Prowess triggers. We'll space them out a bit but load them up at the end.
T1 - 1
T2 - 2 (1 prowess)
T3 - 2 (1 prowess)
T4 - 4 (3 prowess)
Total - 9

So not only does Swiftspear have a higher minimum damage, but the maximum damage is higher, and it's more resistant to removal. And we haven't even taken into account that Lavamancer requires you to spend additional mana on him where as Swiftspear gives you extra damage for spending mana on things you were already going to do.

[Captain Hammer]

my view on it is that when the creatures are as good as they are, and Lava Spike is as bad as it is... why not play the creatures?

Are we talking about Burn here. When did Lava Spike become a bad card in Burn?

3 damage for 1 mana is the gold standard. So what if it can't hit creatures, aiming your burn at your opponents head is the correct play the vast majority of the time. If you really need to kill a creature that badly, more than a third of the cards burn plays are capable of doing just that.


Has anyone played with a Burn deck like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883)? I like the feel of it in testing, and I'm wondering what people's impressions of this sort of thing have been.


Again with the cutting of Lava Spike!

To answer the question, yes, I love the black splash in burn. But playing 24 mana producers in order to support high cc utility cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Sylvan Library and Searing Blaze in place of burn's bread and butter: 3 damage for 1 mana cards like Lava Spike and Bump in the Night is not the correct route to take.


I'm a big proponent of splashing black into burn (especially now that TC got the boot). But being able to play 4 Bump in the Night alongside 4 Deathrite Shaman (which allows you to get away with playing 18 lands) are the main reasons why I think the black splash is worthwhile. Sulfuric Vortex, Sylvan Library and Searing Blaze have no place in a burn deck that splashes another color. The whole point of splashing is to enable the deck to play more mana efficient spells and a lower curve.

Below is my go to B/R burn list, it's as fast, efficient and consistent as a burn deck has ever been. With the below list, you deal 20+ damage to your opponent by turn 4 virtually every single time, even in the face of counterspells or discard spells blanking a burn spell or two.

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

// Sorceries
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice

// Lands
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain

You don't try to burn away your opponent's creatures, you ignore them and aim everything at the face, the way burn decks are supposed to. Deathrite and Eidolon do almost all of their damage without attacking, they don't care about potential blockers. And a well timed Goblin Guide is generally good for atleast 2 damage to your opponent even if your opponent is playing a creature heavy deck.

Deathrite Shaman serves double duty. Not only is it a great way to turn excess mana into damage, it serves an extremely important role in the above list in substantially decreasing the likelihood of getting mana screwed, while getting away with running the 18 land configuration that is optimal for a deck like this with such a low curve.


The only remaining question regarding the above list is....
Goblin Guide vs. Monastary Swiftspear - Which is the superior choice? I lean heavily in favor of Goblin Guide's dependability myself.

[Chatto]

Below is my go to B/R burn list, it's as fast, efficient and consistent as a burn deck has ever been. With the below list, you deal 20+ damage to your opponent by turn 4 virtually every single time, even in the face of counterspells or discard spells blanking a burn spell or two.

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

// Sorceries
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice

// Lands
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain

(...)

The only remaining question regarding the above list is....
Goblin Guide vs. Monastary Swiftspear - Which is the superior choice? I lean heavily in favor of Goblin Guide's dependability myself.

Then why play a Taiga? :laugh: Just for the lifegaining ability, I know :smile:

Also, Swiftspear will almost always by 2+ after the first turn you cast her. Still, I am missing Good Ol' GG from time to time... I would say DS serves as a alternative life-drain first, manafixer second, but with your mana-low curve...

What does your SB look like?

Still like Rg better, but have no experience with other splashes to give a solid opinion.

[Brael]

Are we talking about Burn here. When did Lava Spike become a bad card in Burn?

Maybe bad is the wrong word. How about, it's not in the 60 best cards? Of the bolts Lava Spike is the worst, it's the slowest with the least utility. Yes you want to hit a persons face 90 or 95% of the time and in that scenario a Lava Spike is equal to anything else, but matches can be won or lost on that remaining 5-10%. Lightning Bolt is the gold standard because of the options it provides. It's efficient, you can time it optimally, and if you need to hit something other than your opponents face you can. Chain Lightning lacks the timing but keeps options. Rift Bolt has slightly better timing options than Lava Spike but has the added utility of dodging 1 CMC hate and with Swiftspear lets you load up additional spells in a single turn incase you need more prowess on one turn to get through or something. Even Bump In the Night in Black though super marginal has additional upside over Lava Spike. I would run Lava Spike if there were a need, but I posted my list above (though now slightly out of date since Runeflare Trap is no longer a MB option, and Collateral Damage is a thing). What am I losing out on by not including Lava Spike?

In your list for example I would run Magma Jet over the Lava Spikes every time, and Black aside that's the main difference between our lists. That card is very underrated in Burn. It finds you your sideboard cards and it makes sure you draw into action. The idea is that scry gets worse as cards homogenize but that's not entirely accurate. In a deck like Burn scry is amazing because on say turn 3 we have ~25 cards we want to hit being any burn and ~25 cards we don't being any land or creatures without haste. On turns 3 and 4 (but especially 3 because an upkeep Magma Jet gives you the opportunity to draw both cards in top-top by turn 4). There is a very large power difference between the cards we want and the cards we don't want. As a result that scry translates directly into additional damage and improves your consistency.

As far as more than 1/3 of the cards killing creatures goes. Lets use your list, including Fireblast you only have 15 cards that can kill creatures if needed. That's 1/4 of the deck not 1/3. And if you don't count Fireblast (because lets be honest, if you have to Fireblast a creature you're probably losing) it's only 1/5 of the deck. Not to say I have a whole lot more, because I don't at 16 cards but that just proves my point. With few ways to interact if you NEED to interact (most of the time we don't want to) having more ways to do so holds a premium.

I liked Lava Spike far more before Eidolon was a thing, that card gave a real incentive in going up above 8 creatures and that means Burn spells had to start getting cut.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Captain Hammer - splashing for black, how do you cope with a turn 3 Iona or Griselbrand or Emrakul or similar, via Reanimate/Show/Sneak?

[bigwerdz]

@brael
I appreciate your opinion and logic on the swiftspear vs lavaman comparison. The reasons I've been a fan of lavamancer isn't for its raw damage output but for its utility. I like being able to hold open removal then spells then if they aren't needed just activate lavaman for a quick 2. This allows for having more actual spells in hand for the kill turn. I won't argue that swiftspear isn't faster then lavaman but in my experience the versatility of lavamancer has always been the reason I like it. I appreciate the response with reasoning behind it and I'll prolly have to give swiftspear a shot after indy and see how I like it.

[Captain Hammer]

Below is my go to B/R burn list, it's as fast, efficient and consistent as a burn deck has ever been. With the below list, you deal 20+ damage to your opponent by turn 4 virtually every single time, even in the face of counterspells or discard spells blanking a burn spell or two.

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

// Sorceries
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice

// Lands
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain

You don't try to burn away your opponent's creatures, you ignore them and aim everything at the face, the way burn decks are supposed to. Deathrite and Eidolon do almost all of their damage without attacking, they don't care about potential blockers. And a well timed Goblin Guide is generally good for atleast 2 damage to your opponent even if your opponent is playing a creature heavy deck.

Deathrite Shaman serves double duty. Not only is it a great way to turn excess mana into damage, it serves an extremely important role in the above list in substantially decreasing the likelihood of getting mana screwed, while getting away with running the 18 land configuration that is optimal for a deck like this with such a low curve.


The only remaining question regarding the above list is....
Goblin Guide vs. Monastary Swiftspear - Which is the superior choice? I lean heavily in favor of Goblin Guide's dependability myself.




Captain Hammer - splashing for black, how do you cope with a turn 3 Iona or Griselbrand or Emrakul or similar, via Reanimate/Show/Sneak?

I dislike Magma Jet. Yes it has good utility but regardless, paying 2 mana to deal 2 damage is vastly inferior to paying just 1 mana to deal 3 damage.

By turn 3, my list by playing 20 1cc bolts puts them at a very low life total already. Even if the deck doesn't make a third land drop, your opponent is usually down to at most 5 life by then (far more frequently, they're down to 3 or less since the majority of the decks in the format play either Fetchlands or Ancient Tombs (or both) and many play Thoughtseizes as well). And not infrequently, you're able to kill them off turn 3 itself, thought most games, it's turn 4 when your opponent's die.

Against reanimator, a third of their reanimation spells (reanimates) are unusuable because of their low life total. They also won't be able to pay life to draw cards with Griselbrand the turn they cast it, and they won't be alive by the time it loses it's summoning sickness. Even if the Griselbrand makes it out on turn 2, it's still feasible to burn them out even under a Griselbrand that managed to get one swing in, especially since Reanimator plays fetchlands, reanimates and oftentimes, thoughtseizes.

In addition, splashing black gives you resiliency vs. Iona. Where an Iona on red in a monored burn list is basically game over, the B/R list plays 12 cards that can still finish your opponent off.

Vs. Emrakul, yes, there's not a whole lot any burn deck can do vs. an Emrakul on the battlefield. Burn's best chance is to kill the opponent off before they are able to get it into play and this is more than feasible because Emrakul far more often comes down turn 4 or later, not turn 3. The black splash by playing 20 1cc bolts stands the best chance of any burn variant of killing off your opponent by turn 4.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Captain Hammer... how do you cast the 5R for Bump in the graveyard? am I missing something here?

[Ace/Homebrew]

If he's talking about killing his opponent on turn 4, the :5::r: flashback line might as well be flavor text.

[Brael]

I dislike Magma Jet. Yes it has good utility but regardless, paying 2 mana to deal 2 damage is vastly inferior to paying just 1 mana to deal 3 damage.

It is, but that scry represents additional damage which means the 2:2 comparison isn't quite fair. With the added card quality from the scry Magma Jet is much closer to 4 for 2 at instant speed and with the ability to split the targets if you need.

[LeoCop 90]

I really love magma jet but unfortunately i think it is too slow for burn... i know it digs for relevant cards so in the end it does more than two damages, but it does so at the cost of probably slowing down your clock by a whole turn. I find it hard to justify playing magma jet in modern and even in standard i won't play more than 1-2 copies, it is just not impactful enough.

[Brael]

I really love magma jet but unfortunately i think it is too slow for burn... i know it digs for relevant cards so in the end it does more than two damages, but it does so at the cost of probably slowing down your clock by a whole turn. I find it hard to justify playing magma jet in modern and even in standard i won't play more than 1-2 copies, it is just not impactful enough.

In both Modern and Standard you're playing with lower power cards which makes that scry less impactful. The difference between Modern and Legacy for example is the difference finding Fireblast or Price of Progress instead of Shard Volley or Lava Spike. I wouldn't play Magma Jet in Modern.

As far as it slowing you down goes, it really depends on when you cast it. For example casting Magma Jet on your upkeep on turn 3 or EoT on turn 2 with a hand full of Burn can find you an additional land drop, which then gets you back the mana you spent on the Magma Jet while also having given you some damage, getting those 3 mana cards on curve like Sulfuric Vortex is also greatly helped by having the scry given our land counts. When you definitely don't want to be casting it is on turn 4, you want to put it earlier in your sequencing so that you can go for the kill on time.

[xieyun006]

Maybe its just my meta, but I find that the only time I want to race is against combo, almost every other deck I play against has relevant creatures that need to be killed, and I'm totally ok with ending the game on turn five with a price. I'm running a full set of forked bolt, and two searing blood for creature control, I look at magma jet as a different kind of searing blood. Its two mana to kill a creature you have to kill, but unlike searing blood, it can go to the face, and will fix your draw if necessary. I end up taking the control role in most of my games, but I'm pretty sure thats just my meta, lots of tempo decks, and DnT.

Edit:

Also magma jet isn't soo great in modern because its just a race usually, you don't often have to shift gears. In standard most creatures shrug off two damage like its nothing, and how slow standard is, you have time to build up your resources and play stronger cards, in Legacy however every creature that burn needs to kill, and is able to kill dies to magma jet, its a one for one trade, in an emergency you can burn some ones face, and after that you get to fix your next two draws, thats a pretty big advantage in a deck with no deck manipulation.

[bigwerdz]

"xieyun006

Maybe its just my meta, but I find that the only time I want to race is against combo, almost every other deck I play against has relevant creatures that need to be killed, and I'm totally ok with ending the game on turn five with a price. I'm running a full set of forked bolt, and two searing blood for creature control, I look at magma jet as a different kind of searing blood. Its two mana to kill a creature you have to kill, but unlike searing blood, it can go to the face, and will fix your draw if necessary. I end up taking the control role in most of my games, but I'm pretty sure thats just my meta, lots of tempo decks, and DnT."

I think maybe you are over valueing your opponents creatures. In my 18 months playing burn I just haven't noticed that many creatures that NEED to be killed. The only real creature removal I run is 3 searing blaze main and 3 searing blood in the board. Of course there are times where something needs to get bolted but I'd still rather keep my getcha spell count high and not play weaker spells like jet or forked bolt. When our goal is to kill fast a searing spell is every bit as much as a 2 for 1 as a forked both killing 2 dudes and doing nothing up stairs. Popping one of elves combo enablers, a mom or sfm in dnt, or a drs when it threatens to start gaining life is typically enough of a tempo swing to put me ahead anyways. I wouldn't want to dilute my chances of a t3 or 4 kill against decks I have to kill on t3 or 4 to gain percentage points against decks I should be able to beat anyways ie gaining points against elves that I can already beat with main deck staples and then not be able to kill the stumbling reanimator or snt deck cause I drew forked bolts or jets instead of real bolts or a blast. The only real bad creature match up I've seen is maverick varients.

[xieyun006]

I think maybe you are over valueing your opponents creatures. In my 18 months playing burn I just haven't noticed that many creatures that NEED to be killed. The only real creature removal I run is 3 searing blaze main and 3 searing blood in the board. Of course there are times where something needs to get bolted but I'd still rather keep my getcha spell count high and not play weaker spells like jet or forked bolt. When our goal is to kill fast a searing spell is every bit as much as a 2 for 1 as a forked both killing 2 dudes and doing nothing up stairs. Popping one of elves combo enablers, a mom or sfm in dnt, or a drs when it threatens to start gaining life is typically enough of a tempo swing to put me ahead anyways. I wouldn't want to dilute my chances of a t3 or 4 kill against decks I have to kill on t3 or 4 to gain percentage points against decks I should be able to beat anyways ie gaining points against elves that I can already beat with main deck staples and then not be able to kill the stumbling reanimator or snt deck cause I drew forked bolts or jets instead of real bolts or a blast. The only real bad creature match up I've seen is maverick varients.

Unless I have the cards in hand to kill on the very next turn, this is what I will be doing in each of these scenarios:
Against any tempo variance I'd kill delver before it starts getting damage in, especially against rug since they are actually the beatdown in that match up. I will kill deathrite on site, even if there are no creatures in the grave because if I don't the next turn will be followed by lilly, true name nemesis or something silly like that. Against stoneforge decks you kill stoneforge or you risk dealing with batterskull/jitte. In death and taxes its a good idea to kill mom before she untaps, Thalia on sight, and stoneforge for said reasons above. In the mirror I'd kill guide before he gets another attack in, and eidolon before they get more value out of it. If you ignore elves' first turn drop you risk dying turn two. Some may think this is over valuing opponent's creatures, but i've lost before due to deciding other wise in the past.

Against reanimator if you hit any of your hate you're already down a card if not more, they can play off of two basic lands, which drasticly cuts the power of price, and you still need to play around counter spell, as well as discard, under these conditions whats the chance you're gonna kill on turn three any ways?

The more I read into these burn discussions it seems like every one is planning for magical christmas land, this mentality would be fine in modern, but this is legacy, the format of interaction, and we're playing a bad combo deck, that can shift toward a light control role. Lll I read about is focusing on the combo side of burn. force of will(game one) or blue blast(game two) your big burn spell happens alot, you want to run all those bolts? spell pierce, and thalia are gonna rock your world. Those of you who hate on magma jet, how many games have you sat there with no cards in hand and drew into lands or dead goblin guides, and end up losing the game? This happens to me enough times that I'm testing magma jet again.

And I'm not trying to sound rude, bigwerdz this is not aimed directly at you, but you're the fourth or fifth time I've seen this happen, not only on this forum; but why do people cite the amount of time they've spent playing magic or a certain deck as a badge of honor or prelude to wisdom? I've known people who have picked up magic in a competative environment, and within a month they are placing at FNMs, and I've known people who played since alpha, who have power nine, and can't beat my mono black pauper deck. Its about the environment your'e in, your mentality/perception of the game, and the quality of your opponents, and teachers. Time doesn't have crap to do with it. Had to get that off my chest.

[bigwerdz]

@xieyun006
Hey no offense taken. I state the amount of time I've been playing not as a badge of honor but just a statement of where I'm at. Most people I know that play legacy have played a considerable amount more then me. I don't want to sound like I've been playing a long time when in reality I have not. I also am not saying what I'd do in magical christmas land. I just see people post all the wild lists with fringe cards and wonder how you race anything. I understand the kill on site creatures but with 4 fork bolts and some number of magma jets I wonder how you race anything. What I don't get is where the need for more consistency comes from. My list is 20 lands, 11 creatures, 2 mb vortex and the rest burn spells. so 27 of the 60 cards do guaranteed dmg(unless countered). 13 of the 60 will do some amount of dmg if played in any situation near optimal. So 2/3 of the deck do what you want them to do most of the time. That is one of the strengths of burn, that it is crazy redundant. I mean at scg columbus against pox I lost 2 games because after we were hellbent I only drew lands. Both games he was at a very low life total and I was at a reasonably high life total when we reached that point. Would magma jet have been great there? Yes. Would it have been great the rest of the tourney? No. Variance happens and that's something you have to live with. I'd rather lose cause I drew poorly then lose cause I played bad cards. And again this is all from my personal experience. Your mileage my vary. This has been mine.

[LeoCop 90]

I don't claim to be the best burn player in the world but I'm pretty sure you are overvaluing the strength of magma jet. We play an extremely redundant deck that aims at killing the opponent as soon as possible. You won't go anywhere playing burn as a control deck, because we don't have the tools to win in mid late game. Creatures must be killed only if they can gain life or they are killing you. If you face a lot of creature decks play 4 searing blaze main deck and 4 searing blood in sideboard. Another option is lavamancer.... magma jet's scry 2 can be useful sometimes but again we can't afford to play a burn spell that only deals 2 to the face for 2 mana.

I mean, magma jet is not a terrible card, but there are better options for burn in legacy. If I'm not convincing you can ask the best burn players in the world (patrick sullivan, recently jim davis) if they would play magma jet and the answer is no. But in the end, if you think it is good and it works for you just play it, the choice is up to you.

[xieyun006]

Before we go on, let me post my list, and explain myself a little more, my last post was a little cranky, I've been shoveling too much snow today :)

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
4 forked bolt
2 magma jet
2 searing blood
3 fireblast
4 price of progress
2 sulfuric vortex
4 goblin guide
4 swift spear
4 eidolon

19 lands

So this list has actually been pretty awesome for me. I used to play 2 lavamancers where magma jets are, 4 lava spikes where forked bolts are, and 8 fetches and 1 tiaga for grip/revelry in the side, everything else is pretty much the same. I believe that red's creatures are good enough now that we can revert to a sligh strategy, drop great creatures for pressure, then use burn as removal, and finishers. This is why I place soo much value on creature removal, because it can clear the way for my creature damage. I actually race much more consistently with this deck then my old list because of swift spear.

As far as redundancy is concerned, you want to have redundant cards that do damage to target player, I want cards that can do damage to player or creatures, and I'm willing to pay for that versatility, especially when my sub par cards are actually generating advantage in other ways than just raw damage. I believe that Legacy has changed much more than most give it credit for, and the roles that creatures play are much more powerful then they used to be, but thats my thinking, based on my experiences.

'You won't go anywhere playing burn as a control deck, because we don't have the tools to win in mid late game.' - LeoCop90

I'm not playing a control deck, I can shift into a control mode if necessary, meaning I have the choice to control the board with my burn or not. As far as mid and late games go we have price of progress, the number one reason why Burn is viable in legacy, I've pumped out 8+ damage with that single card, heck it puts R/u burn the board not too long ago, and still does. I think you are wrong here.

After all is said and done, I'm testing magma jet, I haven't taken it to a big tournament yet, I've played flame rift and hated it, I've played with lava spike and I hate it. For now magma jet will get a chance, I might go back to lavamancer/fetchlands in time, but to me other than lava mancer, there isn't anything else worth running in place of jet, (edit) and the cost of running lava mancer is much greater than you think. More often then not, it just dies and you get nothing out of it, you're opening yourself up to stifle, and for the one damage/resource ratio that magma jet is lacking, it doesn't require a package that can potentially hit you for 3+ damage through out the course of the game.

[paeng4983]

Red is a lucky color + February is our love month = this made me think of bringing a RDW in the battlefield for our scheduled monthly big legacy GPT Kyoto event that NGSD hosted wherein 45-50 people participated.

The deck did not fail me, securing me those two round byes for the said GP is a great cushion.

The cards that I sleeved
10 Mountains, 9 Red Fetches
4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex, 3 Fireblast, 4 Price of Progress
4 Eidolon of the Great Rebel, 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Monastery Swiftspear
SB
3 Vexing Susher, 3 REB, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle, 1 Searing Blood, 3 Smash to Smithereens

My MUs
MUD 1-2
Imperial Painter, MUD, Esper, Affinity, BUG all wins by two-zero

top 8
Miracle 2-0

top4
Everybody agreed that I get this one for the byes.
^_^
See you in April, Kyoto!

[bigwerdz]

@pang
Hey congrats on the finish with burn in the gpt!
I agree it must be a good month for burn. I just top 8ed the scg indy main event over the weekend. I didn't take notes but it felt good to see so much bug in the room. Burn did what it does and gave me pretty good hands and I tried not to get in the way too much and ended the Swiss portion 12-3 then promptly lost to elves in the top 8. I think burn will be a reasonable call for the near future with as much bug as I saw and everyone else tweaking for the new meta.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@bigwerdz

Congrats to you too! Can you recall any of your match-ups?

[bigwerdz]

Yeah day 1 was a little foggy. This was my first open so I didn't know what to expect. All my opponents all day were super cool and win or lose I enjoyed playing them. I finished day 1 7-2. I don't remember all the specifics of my match ups but I beat pox, jeskai stoneblade, bug delver, DnT, infect, elves, and Sneak and show. I lost to 2 really cool guys in round 7&8. One guy was on U/W/r stoneblade and the other rug delver. They both beat me 2-0 and if I recall neither game in either match up was particularly close. I was pretty bummed after dropping round 7 & 8 and was pretty confident I needed to win round 9 to make day 2. I got paired against a guy on sneak and show that I had been talking to through out the day. sneak and show isn't particularly a great match up for me in the past and knew I'd have to play tight and get a little lucky to win and that's what happened. If I recall correctly game one my opponent had to mulligan and I kept a t1 guide, t2 eidolon hand and was able to close out before he found either a snt or a fatty to kill me with. Game 2 my hand was a bit slower and I my opponent sneak attacked a grisledaddy drew 7 then put in a emrakul and got me for 22. Game 3 on turn 3 my opponent snt an emrakul and passed the turn, I untapped priced for 6 and fireblasted for the win. Day 2 the deck was just hot. Seemed to always draw exactly what I needed and I didn't get my third loss for the tourney till the last round of swiss in day 2. I played sneak and show 2x, bug delver, a U/W control list with no balance/top, and another u/w control list with the sword/foundry combo. In round 15 I lost 2-1 to shardless bug. G1 I won very fast and actually though I was playing bug delver that didn't draw well and sided approprietly. Found out early game 2 that I was indeed playing shardless and got crushed by I believe a goyf holding a jitte. Game 3 was a very close game I had 2 turns where I believe any burn spell off the top would have got me there but in the end lost to agent beats and 2 DRS eating creatures and spells for the win. This version of shardless turns out had a basic swamp and forest and that was huge against me. In top 8 I played a super cool guy on elves from another shop of my lgs. He won that 2-1. g1 he mulled to 5 and I was able to get there off an eidolon and burning out his creatures. Games 2&3 I kept decent hands and was close but just couldn't close. G3 I needed to top deck a mountain t4 to double fireblast for the win and didn't get it. This was I believe both of our first scg top 8's and we had a good laugh threw the games as we made some minor mistakes to the amusement of the spectators near the table. Over all burn performed very well. I felt going in burn was as good as a call this weekend as any with cruise being gone and figured bug was going to be on the rise. I plan to play burn again in the invitational if the meta is still relatively like it is now.

[echofish]

Anyone not convinced that Faerie Macabre is the graveyard hate of choice should see Burn vs Reanimator from SCG last weekend:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/618582124?t=7h30m

Pros:
-Instant speed
-Free
-Can't be countered (except stifle)
-Can't be destroyed
-Removes two creatures (Good in case they got two creatures in gy and plays Exhume. And you even get a 2/2 flyer in play for free!)

[xieyun006]

Anyone not convinced that Faerie Macabre is the graveyard hate of choice should see Burn vs Reanimator from SCG last weekend:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/618582124?t=7h30m

Pros:
-Instant speed
-Free
-Can't be countered (except stifle)
-Can't be destroyed
-Removes two creatures (Good in case they got two creatures in gy and plays Exhume. And you even get a 2/2 flyer in play for free!)

good to see Macabre is finally getting some love, that card is amazing.

[Chatto]

Am I missing something? He didn't play Faerie Macabre, right? Or is that your point; play it over normal gy-hate?

[echofish]

Am I missing something? He didn't play Faerie Macabre, right? Or is that your point; play it over normal gy-hate?

Yeah, that was the point. He dies with Relic in hand. Joe even has a decay ready for any "normal" gy hate, as you call it.

[Chatto]

With normal I mean real gy-hosers. Tarmogoyf is still a card, and it gets more play these days. Faerie Macabre 'only' takes two cards, but in some scenarios that can be enough, of course. Your pros are very real in a fast meta: I'm going to try it in my SB for a while.

[Brael]

Playing a win a box tournament tomorrow (well, it's after midnight so I suppose it's today now) the format is Legacy with unlimited proxies available. With the ability to play anything in the world that I want, it means I'm playing Burn. I'm doing this because I expect Price of Progress to put in some serious work in such a format where everyone is playing all the ABU's they can jam, and probably playing more than they should. Plus, people have been saying lately around the shop that Burn sucks so I want to prove them wrong. I figure this prediction is 50/50, it will horribly backfire if everyone just jumps on turn 1-2 combo decks.

My list is similar to a couple pages back except there's no longer a need to capitalize on any MB Cruise hate. Most notably after defending Magma Jet a page back I'm dropping it here in favor of Searing Blaze, I expect a higher than normal number of targets as people try to capitalize on Stoneforge/Batterskull and DRS (few Legacy tournaments in the area, so I think people will want to play the big interactions) and in such a situation the Searing X spells are a bit more powerful.


//Land 19
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
1 Taiga

//Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer

//Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Skullcrack
3 Searing Blaze
3 Rift Bolt
2 Collateral Damage

//Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grim Lavamancer



Anyone not convinced that Faerie Macabre is the graveyard hate of choice should see Burn vs Reanimator from SCG last weekend:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/618582124?t=7h30m

Pros:
-Instant speed
-Free
-Can't be countered (except stifle)
-Can't be destroyed
-Removes two creatures (Good in case they got two creatures in gy and plays Exhume. And you even get a 2/2 flyer in play for free!)

Macabre is very good in a deck like burn, that game showed why.

[bigwerdz]

@brael
I guess I just don't understand the lists you put together. Why on earth are you running a collateral damage over a rift bolt lol. I guess I could maybe see it if you had young pyromancer and were saccing tokens but you are playing guys that need to swing. Rift bolt is too valuable with monastery swift spear and profitable interactions against chalice and miracles. Also why skullcrack main and vortex board. I mean vortex is just better but if you insist on crack why run vortex at all? Just dump one or the other and shore up your 1-of/2-of sideboard so you can actually see the cards when you bring em in. You aren't running magma jet to dig for them anymore...

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Agree with @bigwerdz. I can't see the reason for including Collateral Damage. Are you only planning to use it in response to an opponent bolting your own creature? The list posted by @paeng4983 is as good as it gets.

[bigwerdz]

Thanks I_Hate_Counterspells. If the meta is anything like I saw at Indy I can't see a good reason to run swiftspear over lavamancer. Elves was EVERYWHERE. Lavaman is also good for controlling bugs non-goyf creatures and bug was popular too. I mean to each their own and I understand why people run swifty but if there is a time to take a look at old lavamancer it is prolly now.

[Brael]

@brael
I guess I just don't understand the lists you put together. Why on earth are you running a collateral damage over a rift bolt lol. I guess I could maybe see it if you had young pyromancer and were saccing tokens but you are playing guys that need to swing. Rift bolt is too valuable with monastery swift spear and profitable interactions against chalice and miracles. Also why skullcrack main and vortex board. I mean vortex is just better but if you insist on crack why run vortex at all? Just dump one or the other and shore up your 1-of/2-of sideboard so you can actually see the cards when you bring em in. You aren't running magma jet to dig for them anymore...

I could see a Vortex/Skullcrack switch. Collateral Damage is very good against Batterskull and a few other things.

[Brael]

Sorry, I was in a rush when I wrote that. I'm running Collateral Damage because I suspect it's quite good. This will be my first tournament with it but I have played Reckless Abandon in the past and it was good despite the timing restrictions. Collateral Damage is almost a strict upgrade. It lets you swing into lifelink if you have multiple creatures, it lets you block lifelink, it lets you get value off creatures that can't swing, it salvages a block you failed to take into account, it gets rid of Eidolon if you have to, and it's strong against certain removal spells. I've played 3 Abandon before in a list with 4 Hellsparks and 4 Marauders, I think 2 is the perfect number here.

The Rift Bolt is cut because it had to be something, I suspect Miracles isn't going to show up, and if it does that's a matchup I'm very familiar and comfortable with usually winning it by capitalizing on my opponent making the wrong plays. I'm confident I can win it here because no one including me is a legacy expert (I just happen to know this one deck well).

I've been thinking about Vortex/Skullcrack for the past couple hours and I'm not sure what to add so what I'll try is swap the 2 Vortex with 2 Skullcrack.


Agree with @bigwerdz. I can't see the reason for including Collateral Damage. Are you only planning to use it in response to an opponent bolting your own creature? The list posted by @paeng4983 is as good as it gets.

Paeng4983's list isn't that far off from mine MB. I'm on 3 Blaze/1 Lavamancer where he's on 4 Blaze which is pretty similar in function, and after the switch above I've got 2 Skullcracks, and a Fireblast, and where he has Lava Spikes. The last two Bolts we both have, mine are just named Collateral Damage which provides a different type of utility. I suspect both lists play out rather similar SB's aside which can't really be compared due to different metas.

Edit: Editing to avoid a triple post. I ended up going 3-1 taking second on tiebreakers, beat Shardless BUG, Esper Deathblade, and Goblins, lost to Dredge in the finals, I narrowly lost out on game 1 then punted the sideboard and was severely punished in game 2. However I did use every card in my sideboard so I'm happy with what I went with. Sulfuric Vortex was fantastic but I was fortunate with land draws I think I may go up to 20 lands if I continue with it MB. Collateral Damage performed well above expectations but I did side it out from time to time. Collateral did everything it let me score me some free -loyalty against Liliana, kill 4 Bridge from Below at once, and profitably interact with Batterskull for 1 mana. The one negative I noticed is that the interaction between it and Monastery Swiftspear wasn't the best as it actively works against you making Swiftspear 2+ power each turn if it's your only creature. Two seemed like the perfect number.

Needless to say I was very happy with Collateral but I think I want to hedge against that Mentor/Collateral interaction. I might go to say a 3/2 split on Mentor/Lavamancer.

[Scott]

Has anyone played with a Burn deck like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883)? I like the feel of it in testing, and I'm wondering what people's impressions of this sort of thing have been.
Again with the cutting of Lava Spike!

To answer the question, yes, I love the black splash in burn. But playing 24 mana producers in order to support high cc utility cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Sylvan Library and Searing Blaze in place of burn's bread and butter: 3 damage for 1 mana cards like Lava Spike and Bump in the Night is not the correct route to take.


I'm a big proponent of splashing black into burn (especially now that TC got the boot). But being able to play 4 Bump in the Night alongside 4 Deathrite Shaman (which allows you to get away with playing 18 lands) are the main reasons why I think the black splash is worthwhile. Sulfuric Vortex, Sylvan Library and Searing Blaze have no place in a burn deck that splashes another color. The whole point of splashing is to enable the deck to play more mana efficient spells and a lower curve.


I had similar instincts when Bump in the Night and then Tyrant's Choice came out, alongside Deathrite Shaman. My thought was, "Great, cut the chaff like Hellspark Elemental and Flame Rift, splash black, add another 1 CMC 3 damage spell in Bump in the Night (once in a blue moon flashed back with the help of DRS), add DRS for reach, acceleration, & graveyard hosing, and add Tyrant's Choice. Done."

I tested things like http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13245&iddeck=97215 in various forms, including updated ones to include Tyrant's Choice, and it went fine. The mana base and Price of Progress were rarely problems. After extensive testing of http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883, I do believe that it's on the right track more than the previous one, though.

I can't speak for the designer, but I think I understand the philosophy behind the differences, and get what makes it tick, in comparison to the other. In a sentence, you don't want to be fetching a dual land unless it's for a substantial benefit, and you don't want to do it with your first land drop unless you're dropping a DRS. We're not starved for 1 CMC 3 damage spells anymore. If we're running things like DRS and Searing Blaze in the main deck of the black splash, as I think we should be, we don't even have space for another one. It's just another Lava Spike, which itself doesn't make the cut in that configuration, and yet another (and a worse one) Rift Bolt/Chain Lightning/Lava Spike is not good enough to be fetching a Badlands. And that flashback ain't happening.

As for the other non-red cards, fetching a Badlands or a Taiga for a Deathrite Shaman actually helps your mana most games and is much more powerful than a Bump in the Night, and Tyrant's Choice & Sylvan Library don't require the possible tempo loss of a turn 1 Wasteland, while also being powerful enough to warrant the dual land fetch.

As far as lowering the mana curve and land count to 18, even with DRS I wouldn't be comfortable playing 18 lands in what I believe to be the optimal list, without any card selection. It's not like Sulfuric Vortex is the only reason one would go up to 3 CMC; you have Ensnaring Bridge and Krosan Grip from the side, and occasional need for it with Rift Bolt and Fireblast fuel. I don't see why a burn deck splashing another color wouldn't want Searing Blaze. It has the same CMC as Tyrant's Choice, Price of Progress, and Eidolon of the Great Revel, and I think it's a hell of a card, especially with our fetches.

Thanks for your thoughts though. The strategy of lowering the curve that you're pursuing could have separate merit. These are just my fallible takeaways, but I encourage anyone to test the Rbg burn list, as I'm sold on it being an upgrade from mono red.

[bigwerdz]

@scott
In your testing how often can your list t3 somebody? I know the deck isn't strictly built for the t3 kill but I feel like the threat of the t3 kill is very important. Mono red is already pretty consistent so having things like sylvan library is just taking away from the pressure to get more of something we already have. I like the idea of using our life as a resource to draw gas but I feel like I'd rather spend my second or third turn keeping the pressure up with damage. I feel like we lost alot of efficiency for color splashes that we cannot afford. Also lavaman hitting creatures is huge over drs only draining opponents. He did work over that weekend against infect and d&t. I haven't posted my list yet so here it is. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79340.

[jmlima]

I had similar instincts when Bump in the Night and then Tyrant's Choice came out, alongside Deathrite Shaman. My thought was, "Great, cut the chaff like Hellspark Elemental and Flame Rift, splash black, add another 1 CMC 3 damage spell in Bump in the Night (once in a blue moon flashed back with the help of DRS), add DRS for reach, acceleration, & graveyard hosing, and add Tyrant's Choice. Done."

I tested things like http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13245&iddeck=97215 in various forms, including updated ones to include Tyrant's Choice, and it went fine. The mana base and Price of Progress were rarely problems. After extensive testing of http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883, I do believe that it's on the right track more than the previous one, though.

I can't speak for the designer, but I think I understand the philosophy behind the differences, and get what makes it tick, in comparison to the other. In a sentence, you don't want to be fetching a dual land unless it's for a substantial benefit, and you don't want to do it with your first land drop unless you're dropping a DRS. We're not starved for 1 CMC 3 damage spells anymore. If we're running things like DRS and Searing Blaze in the main deck of the black splash, as I think we should be, we don't even have space for another one. It's just another Lava Spike, which itself doesn't make the cut in that configuration, and yet another (and a worse one) Rift Bolt/Chain Lightning/Lava Spike is not good enough to be fetching a Badlands. And that flashback ain't happening.

As for the other non-red cards, fetching a Badlands or a Taiga for a Deathrite Shaman actually helps your mana most games and is much more powerful than a Bump in the Night, and Tyrant's Choice & Sylvan Library don't require the possible tempo loss of a turn 1 Wasteland, while also being powerful enough to warrant the dual land fetch.

As far as lowering the mana curve and land count to 18, even with DRS I wouldn't be comfortable playing 18 lands in what I believe to be the optimal list, without any card selection. It's not like Sulfuric Vortex is the only reason one would go up to 3 CMC; you have Ensnaring Bridge and Krosan Grip from the side, and occasional need for it with Rift Bolt and Fireblast fuel. I don't see why a burn deck splashing another color wouldn't want Searing Blaze. It has the same CMC as Tyrant's Choice, Price of Progress, and Eidolon of the Great Revel, and I think it's a hell of a card, especially with our fetches.

Thanks for your thoughts though. The strategy of lowering the curve that you're pursuing could have separate merit. These are just my fallible takeaways, but I encourage anyone to test the Rbg burn list, as I'm sold on it being an upgrade from mono red.

I'm with you regarding the splash.

IF there is a splash, then the obvious starting point is Death Rite Shaman. But I feel this creates a slight conundrum in the sense that the obvious fetch for Death Rite Shaman is Bayou, but Bayou is far from the ideal fetch for Burn. Hence, you end up fetching something like Badlands, which puts with a single option from what Death Rite Shaman offers. I appreciate the to use green with Death Rite Shaman is probably redundant in this deck as life gain is far from a priority, which in turn makes me wonder if, to avoid even more exposure to Wasteland, one would not be better to ignore entirely the green sources and green cards for main deck, leaving in the board the green sources, plus something like Destructive Revelry to deal with possible Leyline of Sanctity. If Leyline of Sanctity is not a threat, then potentially Null Rod could be used instead of the green splash and green sources would not be required at all.

Just a random thought.

[Chatto]

I'm with you regarding the splash.

IF there is a splash, then the obvious starting point is Death Rite Shaman. But I feel this creates a slight conundrum in the sense that the obvious fetch for Death Rite Shaman is Bayou, but Bayou is far from the ideal fetch for Burn. Hence, you end up fetching something like Badlands, which puts with a single option from what Death Rite Shaman offers. I appreciate the to use green with Death Rite Shaman is probably redundant in this deck as life gain is far from a priority, which in turn makes me wonder if, to avoid even more exposure to Wasteland, one would not be better to ignore entirely the green sources and green cards for main deck, leaving in the board the green sources, plus something like Destructive Revelry to deal with possible Leyline of Sanctity. If Leyline of Sanctity is not a threat, then potentially Null Rod could be used instead of the green splash and green sources would not be required at all.

Just a random thought.

Wow, that is one hell of a long sentence.

In my humble opinion the only splash is Green for enchantment-hate: K-Grip or Destructive Revelry.

[jmlima]

Wow, that is one hell of a long sentence.

In my humble opinion the only splash is Green for enchantment-hate: K-Grip or Destructive Revelry.

If you're splashing a single colour wouldn't white be the colour to go? It opens up a sea of anti-enchantment / artifact / combo hate... plus some soft locks if there is the need (which there shouldn't but hey-ho).

[Scott]

@scott
In your testing how often can your list t3 somebody? I know the deck isn't strictly built for the t3 kill but I feel like the threat of the t3 kill is very important. Mono red is already pretty consistent so having things like sylvan library is just taking away from the pressure to get more of something we already have. I like the idea of using our life as a resource to draw gas but I feel like I'd rather spend my second or third turn keeping the pressure up with damage. I feel like we lost alot of efficiency for color splashes that we cannot afford. Also lavaman hitting creatures is huge over drs only draining opponents. He did work over that weekend against infect and d&t. I haven't posted my list yet so here it is. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79340.

I did a small amount of comparative testing on the speed matter, not enough to be sufficient, but turn 3 kills look to be more frequent in Marcos Morelli's Rbg list. Compared to traditional post-Eidolon burn, its impediments to a faster kill are a singleton Library, a singleton Vortex which many mono red lists carry--2 in yours, basically the same lack of pressure as 1 Sylvan, 1 Vortex in Rbg--too, and the occasional DRS taking the place of a burn spell and having nothing to accelerate into (uncommon, and also usually making up for it with slower reach). Its boosts to a faster kill are DRS acceleration and Tyrant's Choice (4 damage instead of 3 seems more relevant than it being 2 CMC, as it's rare to have a sequence like Turn 1 Guide; Turn 2 Rift Bolt, Lava Spike; Turn 3 Chain Lightning, Bolt, Bolt of entirely 1-drops). Essentially, DRS acceleration is more relevant to speed than a 1-of Library speed bump, and in most games, Library is a big plus for consistency. Openings like Turn 1 DRS; Turn 2 Guide Searing Blaze; Turn 3 Tyrant's Choice Bolt Fireblast 0 life and many variations on it are not a stretch. Your list also carries Lavamancer, which is a hindrance to speed too.

Lavamancer's a good card, but I don't think it can be positively compared to DRS. DRS is just awesome in the deck: providing the same reach as Lavamancer, acceleration, shoring up bad graveyard match ups, occasional life gain, mana fixing, etc. In my opinion, it's better to run the better DRS and run the Searing Blazes play set for creatures. Not counting Fireblast, but counting Lavamancer, your list carries 18 creature removal cards, in comparison to Morelli's 16, so yours does have a slight advantage there.

Splashing also carries the obvious benefits of cards like Destructive Revelry and Krosan Grip, which are huge, with miniscule drawback, in my experience.

Nicely done in the Open, by the way.

[Chatto]

If you're splashing a single colour wouldn't white be the colour to go? It opens up a sea of anti-enchantment / artifact / combo hate... plus some soft locks if there is the need (which there shouldn't but hey-ho).

Well, no, because white offers nothing Burn already has: Eidolon, E-Bridge, Smash to Smithereens. Of course you could use Disenchant, but K-Grip does it strictly better. And yeah, you will not splash white for soft locks. I think it's something personal, though.

[jmlima]

Well, no, because white offers nothing Burn already has: Eidolon, E-Bridge, Smash to Smithereens. Of course you could use Disenchant, but K-Grip does it strictly better. And yeah, you will not splash white for soft locks. I think it's something personal, though.

I guess so. I'm probably just a bit obsessed about fast combo at the moment. :rolleyes:

[Chatto]

@ Burnwillows, Swiftspear is a great card, and I've played her too, but the results weren't always satisfying. Right now I've decided to drop her for good old GG: the damage-output is more consistent. I would consider Lavamancer as a replacement, especially when there is Tempo and Elves in your meta. Same goes for Searing Blaze and Sulfuric Vortex: creature-heavy meta? Go for Blaze. A lot of control? Go for Vortex.

As for your SB: it looks allright to me :cool: :laugh:

[Redkid43]

Something that I've been really wanted to try out is Lotus Petal over some number of mountains. Thete was a few successful versions of Petal Burn that splash blue before Cruise got the axe--lotus petal was a spell that triggered prowess on Swiftspear and filled the graveyard for early Cruises.

I had a quick brew session last night and this came out of it. Granted, this deck can change back to a more traditional burn deck if Petal fails.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Lotus Petal

8 Fetches
2 Barbarian Ring
7 Mountain

Petal allowed for some explosive turn 1s--multiple plus Swiftspear and a burn spell was 6+ damage first turn, Turn 1 Eidolon was awesome on the play too. But again, petals take up space that could be more burn so..

[bigwerdz]

@burnwillows
I agree with chatto. Grim gives decent dmg output and utility without ever having to venture into combat. As for the vortex/blaze split, I think he is correct there as well. My local meta is more creature heavy so I go 3/2 in favor of blaze with the 3rd vortex in the board. As for a large tourney I'd error on the side of the extra blaze. Control players get draws. Burn players do not get draws. My logic says that well see more matches where blaze is better then vortex.

Another general burn shout out. A guy took 16th at the legacy 5k at scg houston.

[Nina]

Looking at the Pro Tour (wich was Modern ofc.) the players choose Swiftspear over Lavamancer in 4-1 or 4-2 splits.
Looking at this thread it seems the opinions are not that clear.
Is that cause of the different qualities thoose cards have in the formats?
Guess Lavamancer is better against Elves and Delver decks wich are not that common in Modern.

[datanaga]

Looking at the Pro Tour (wich was Modern ofc.) the players choose Swiftspear over Lavamancer in 4-1 or 4-2 splits.
Looking at this thread it seems the opinions are not that clear.
Is that cause of the different qualities thoose cards have in the formats?
Guess Lavamancer is better against Elves and Delver decks wich are not that common in Modern.

There are more 2 or less toughness creatures which need to be killed asap in legacy (stoneforge, deathrite, mother of runes, thalia etc.) than in modern.

[bigwerdz]

@Burnwillows
Congratz on the top 16! Are you taking legacy burn to a big tourney or just locally. The MD 60 probably stays the same but board might change. Have you played legacy burn, or even just legacy before?

[Krimson Viper]

After thinking about it, I'm gonna go with Lavamancer over Swiftspear; I think it's much better in my meta and in general. Feeling pretty good about Top 16ing the Modern Open at SCG: LA, so I'm gonna try my luck at Legacy this weekend. Any decks/things I should look out for? I understand that Burn is supposed to be an easy deck to pilot, but I still think that it'll take some getting used to.
Reanimator, Show and X decks, Miracles,Enchantress, and Storm decks are a tought fight with a low percentage of winning against them. Dredge is even a hard match up without a minimum of three hate cards for it. Burn is easy to pilot, but takes skill to bring it to another level of not just slinging fire to the face. Learning the stack is and knowing what cards to look out for in particular decks is something I would research if you're not intimate with what's around.

[Chatto]

Reanimator, Show and X decks, Miracles,Enchantress, and Storm decks are a tought fight with a low percentage of winning against them. Dredge is even a hard match up without a minimum of three hate cards for it. Burn is easy to pilot, but takes skill to bring it to another level of not just slinging fire to the face. Learning the stack is and knowing what cards to look out for in particular decks is something I would research if you're not intimate with what's around.

I second that: Burn is cheap, but that's about it. Hard to master, it needs skill to wield correctly. This isn't Modern; there are cards in Legacy that can ruin your game, even without you ever play or draw a card.

[Dutch253]

Posted this in the less active forum so I'll try it again here!

I've actually settled upon Burn as my first Legacy deck to play while I build Deathblade. Anyone know any decent video primers explaining some of the intricacies of the deck? I know if looks simple to pilot but has many complex decisions and if I'm playing a deck I want to play it well!

[edahl]

Reanimator, Show and X decks, Miracles,Enchantress, and Storm decks are a tought fight with a low percentage of winning against them. Dredge is even a hard match up without a minimum of three hate cards for it. Burn is easy to pilot, but takes skill to bring it to another level of not just slinging fire to the face. Learning the stack is and knowing what cards to look out for in particular decks is something I would research if you're not intimate with what's around.

With 4 md Eidolon of the Great Revel, and 1-2 Pyrostatic Pillar in the board, storm is a match-up I feel quite comfortable with. I've never played against Enchantress but all the other decks are definitely a pain. We can race them, however! I currently run 2 Relics and 1 Tomb for my graveyard package. The relics sometimes come in in match-ups where a cantrip is slightly better than something else, but it feels slow where it matters most. What are ppl using as their graveyard package? I'm thinking of moving to something like 1-1-1 Cage, Tomb, Relic. Cage is another card that would make our storm match-up even more comfortable (to the extent that it is).

The needles in my board are for Top and Jace, though I feel 2 may be too many. We can with luck win through and active Jace, because we can just ignore their cards for a couple turns and kill them. Counter-top however is just almost impossible. What are your plans against miracles?

I run the following 75. Took it to a 4-0 finish in a daily a few days ago :) Was surprised at how strong burn actually is (with a bit of luck).

Creatures (11)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells (29)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands (20)
12 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt

[edahl]

Posted this in the less active forum so I'll try it again here!

I've actually settled upon Burn as my first Legacy deck to play while I build Deathblade. Anyone know any decent video primers explaining some of the intricacies of the deck? I know if looks simple to pilot but has many complex decisions and if I'm playing a deck I want to play it well!
I'd love to see a primer too. I guess a good place to start is this SCG playlist, usually commentated by Patrick Sullivan who is obviously great at the deck https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5d1KNNFArSMoG2Ikg5Ygusi5BYF70RX6&feature=iv&src_vid=aeIVcPuueDc&annotation_id=annotation_1042894703. Things to keep in mind though is playing around soft counters, which of course also means knowing which decks play them and in what numbers. If you're playing into hard counters, do it on their upkeep to drain their mana for the turn. Casting spells at their eot is often a good way to sidestep counters. This is probably obvious, but coming from a deck that did all its stuff sorcery speed, it's something I had to learn :P. Searing Blaze is super good, and fetching on their turn turns on landfall. In the mirror it's not uncommon for people to board in Dragon's Claw to tip the race in their favour. This is a match-up where it's not uncommon to board in Relic because so many cards are just worse than a cantrip (4 pop and 1-2 vortex). I prefer to side in a couple Smash to Smithereens and all the Searing Bloods for maximum carnage. People are often good at playing around pop, and even the decks it's supposed to be good against play Wasteland to limit the damage caused. Searing effects, however, are usually strong against decks with Wasteland. Personally I may consider moving a pop to the board for another Searing Blaze maindeck. Oh, and jam creatures, they're super good and must-answer in most cases. Even though Grim Lavamancer may seem slow and do-nothing, left unchecked it's a house.

[Chatto]

@ edahl: P-Needle does not stop LED, Revoker does.

[edahl]

@ edahl: P-Needle does not stop LED, Revoker does.

Yup, ups, fixed it.

[jmlima]

...Things to keep in mind though is playing around soft counters, which of course also means knowing which decks play them and in what numbers. If you're playing into hard counters, do it on their upkeep to drain their mana for the turn. Casting spells at their eot is often a good way to sidestep counters. This is probably obvious, but coming from a deck that did all its stuff sorcery speed, it's something I had to learn ....

The other thing to do is to build-up spells in your hand, just drop lands. They will want to cast a spell at some point, that's when you bombard them with what you have in hand. (obviously only works with instants) Play your spells (instants) when they tap lands, never play into control hands by going gung-ho on your turn, you can do the same thing that control does which is to play your spells in your opponents turn.

[jmlima]

... Even though Grim Lavamancer may seem slow and do-nothing, left unchecked it's a house.

Yeah, the thing to keep in mind is that Grim Lavamancer is fundamentally a board control tool, you get it on board primarily to deal with DRS, SM, Delver and Co. If left unchecked then you can also go rampant on the 2 damage to the player, but never go for the 2 damage if you even suspect that it would prevent you from removing some of target creatures... unless its the last 2 damage to end the game! :laugh:

[Krimson Viper]

With 4 md Eidolon of the Great Revel, and 1-2 Pyrostatic Pillar in the board, storm is a match-up I feel quite comfortable with. I've never played against Enchantress but all the other decks are definitely a pain. We can race them, however! I currently run 2 Relics and 1 Tomb for my graveyard package. The relics sometimes come in in match-ups where a cantrip is slightly better than something else, but it feels slow where it matters most. What are ppl using as their graveyard package? I'm thinking of moving to something like 1-1-1 Cage, Tomb, Relic. Cage is another card that would make our storm match-up even more comfortable (to the extent that it is).

The needles in my board are for Top and Jace, though I feel 2 may be too many. We can with luck win through and active Jace, because we can just ignore their cards for a couple turns and kill them. Counter-top however is just almost impossible. What are your plans against miracles?

I run the following 75. Took it to a 4-0 finish in a daily a few days ago :) Was surprised at how strong burn actually is (with a bit of luck).

Creatures (11)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells (29)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands (20)
12 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt

I'm not too fond of Pithing Needle as most cards I care about don't have activated abilities. Circle of Protection: Red is one of them and I put two Needles in my board just for it for one store I attend since I've been a victim of it in one's SB.

As for graveyard hate, I've been a victim of Dredge being the only deck defeating me at SCG:Oakland three times, so I switched Relic for Crypt. I want to spend my mana for damage spells only. The draw card is nice, and so is shrinking Goyf and slowing/stopping Delve is great, but doing these things is useless if you just die.

With the printing of Eidolon, Storm is a bit more comfortable MU for us, but turn one or two(on the draw) kills is something of a realization in Legacy. I think that if your store has a lot of Storm combo, something extra is a nice thing to have in the side.

I can't speak for Miracles MU personally, but I have read some useful info regarding it. Things like don't put Rift Bolt on suspend is valuable info because the Miracles player will probably stack their deck accordingly. Miracles is a deck that you need to learn and understand the stack for. Having Eidolon and Vortex is play are things that shouldn't be spent frivolously and Shusher isn't end all against them either. I have Sudden Shock in my SB for the increase of Infect decks in both of my stores, so I side out PoP and take out some number of Searing effects for the third Vortex from my side. That would be my sideboard plan.

My deck:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sudden Shock(turns into 2 and 2 Pithing Needle depending on the shop)
1 Sulfuric Vortex

[Chatto]

I'm not too fond of Pithing Needle (...)

I usually pack two, as there are always a couple of SnT, Miracles, and Painter in my meta. Recently there has been an increase of Reanimator as well.


As for graveyard hate, I've been a victim of Dredge being the only deck defeating me at SCG:Oakland three times, so I switched Relic for Crypt. I want to spend my mana for damage spells only. The draw card is nice, and so is shrinking Goyf and slowing/stopping Delve is great, but doing these things is useless if you just die.

(...)

I'm still debating if I made the right choice, but currently I'm packing Fairie Macabre. Didn't test it against Dredge, and I doubt it would do any good, apart from some obvious cards of course... I'm going to try Crypt as well.


My deck:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sudden Shock(turns into 2 and 2 Pithing Needle depending on the shop)
1 Sulfuric Vortex

I am intrigued by the use of Sudden Shock. It looks like a really good option against Infect, but also (some) permission decks. I will be testing it for myself. Thanks for sharing!

[edahl]

The online meta is full of Miracles. I'm going to give Sudden Shock a try too. I definitely find PoP lackluster in the Miracles matchup while I'm learning to respect Pyroblast for countering CB (trying 1 needle, 3 blast). Though I like the idea of Sudden Shock against Infect, I could also see Flame Rift helping the Miracles match up so that's something I'll have to consider. I like the idea of 4 Searing Blaze mb but I don't feel comfortable cutting neither a Vortex nor a Mountain. If any of them, the Vortex may go, hoping for a quick combo win G1. What's your experience running 19 land? I run 2 Searing Blood in the board that may well become Sudden Shocks for the purpose of testing: Searing Blood in creature matchups is very hit and miss. I've jumped on Crypt as well: having a 0-mana gy hate in matchups where speed and maybe even Pyroblast is so important is obviously great.

[Krimson Viper]

I usually pack two, as there are always a couple of SnT, Miracles, and Painter in my meta. Recently there has been an increase of Reanimator as well.



I'm still debating if I made the right choice, but currently I'm packing Fairie Macabre. Didn't test it against Dredge, and I doubt it would do any good, apart from some obvious cards of course... I'm going to try Crypt as well.



I am intrigued by the use of Sudden Shock. It looks like a really good option against Infect, but also (some) permission decks. I will be testing it for myself. Thanks for sharing!
Sudden Shock isn't a for sure thing against Infect, but it helps a lot. Two mana on the draw and you could be dead against them already. Just remember to kill their creature on your turn. Pump spells is how they will save their creature. I suppose it can help in Delver MUs as well.

I haven't tested Faerie Macabre. It looks like it would be a similar problem that Surgical Extraction/Extirpate and Deathrite Shaman have though, in that Dredge just overloads the use of the hate that they power through it. Let me know how it goes, however. Making sure that my hate doesn't get locked by Needle or blown up by Abrupt Decay is amazing.


The online meta is full of Miracles. I'm going to give Sudden Shock a try too. I definitely find PoP lackluster in the Miracles matchup while I'm learning to respect Pyroblast for countering CB (trying 1 needle, 3 blast). Though I like the idea of Sudden Shock against Infect, I could also see Flame Rift helping the Miracles match up so that's something I'll have to consider. I like the idea of 4 Searing Blaze mb but I don't feel comfortable cutting neither a Vortex nor a Mountain. If any of them, the Vortex may go, hoping for a quick combo win G1. What's your experience running 19 land? I run 2 Searing Blood in the board that may well become Sudden Shocks for the purpose of testing: Searing Blood in creature matchups is very hit and miss. I've jumped on Crypt as well: having a 0-mana gy hate in matchups where speed and maybe even Pyroblast is so important is obviously great.
Running nineteen lands is easy. Finding my second drop is usually on time, while the third is sketchy some games, but I would rather have the Vortex than the extra land. That's just how I like it and I can't justify it. I'm not a fan of non damage spells, which is why I cut Bridge from my board and never ran Blast. While playing in Modern, I find that spells that deal no damage bring the game out too late which is where this deck doesn't want to be.

Split Second doesn't stop Counterbalance triggers, so intuitive Miracles players can play around it, or are ready for it. It makes their game plan difficult, I would imagine. Three and four mana spells are their weak spots in CMC.

As for Searing Blaze, I havent a problem with setting off Landfall. My two stores have quite a bit of creature decks so it's usually live. I wouldn't mind being able to squeeze in Searing Blood into my board, but I just can't make it fit. I run Blaze over Blood because it doesn't matter if the creature dies, but Blood gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Sanctity hasn't made a showing in either stores just yet.

[Krimson Viper]

Didn't do so well in the Legacy tourney due to bad luck and bad matchups, went 2-3. I'm not aware of any major punts that I made, but then again, this was my first time playing the deck, so I'm not sure.


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Searing Blaze

4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monastery Swiftspear


3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyroblast
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Pyroblast


Round 1: Elves 1-2
G1: I start the races off by burning some of his early relevant threats and putting a bit of pressure on him. He eventually assembles enough mana and combos off.
G2: T1 removal for his creature, T2 Eidolon. I start beating down and finish him off with burn.
G3: I keep a good 1-lander, but fail to draw into a land for two turns. A turn earlier and the game's outcome would've been drastically different. I get beaten down by a Scooze and some green men.

Round 2: Miracle-Blade 0-2
G1: Mull to five on my part. I proceed to get dismantled by CB+Top and Batterskull.
G2: Mull to six on my part. My hand has quite a few threats, but his hand has quite a few counters. :rolleyes: He finishes me off with TNN+Jitte after stabilizing.

Round 3: Miracle-Blade 1-2
G1: Cool, get to face another one of these decks. :tongue: Alright, I start the game off with a Goblin Guide and start beating and burning him down. He can't find any lifegain and succumbs shortly.
G2: T1, I cast Guide, he Swords before damage. T2, I cast Eidolon, he Forces. T3, I attempt a Price of Progress, which he Pierces. He makes land drops and beats down with Batterskull.
G3: We both mull to six, and I keep an iffy hand with two action spells and lands. I don't get there and topdeck lands for the rest of the game.

Round 4: Dredge 2-1 (At this point, I'm feeling pretty bad, but I play out the next rounds for experience.)
G1: So we each start goldfishing and he kills me while at 3 life as I fail to topdeck a burn spell of any kind. GG, Dredge...
G2: I land a Grafdigger's and have burn spells to finish him off.
G3: I land a Grafdigger's and start burning him out, but he destroys it with a Nature's Claim a few turns later. Alas, he doesn't find much action and I kill him with double Guide.

Round 5: Sneak and Show 2-0
G1: I keep a god hand and kill him on T4 with little interaction.
G2: He mulls to five and I have an Ensnaring Bridge+Burn. GG.


I definitely like the deck, but need to get more experience and testing in with it. My eventual goal is to expand into a Delver variant, but for now, I'm happy with the deck. Next time I'll hopefully be able to keep good hands. :wink:

Could you review your sideboard for us? You have Pyroblast listed in two different places with different numbers. And then could you tell us how you sideboarded, if you can remember. I know I can never remember, but some can. I would also switch your Grafdigger's Cage with something that actually removes the graveyard. Situations like your where they Claim it and then combo off is an easy occurance.

How do you feel about Swiftspear?

[Krimson Viper]

Elves, I would side out Lava Spike instead of Rift. Rift hits creatures, even if it's delayed. Some Elves players will see Rift and possibly hold off a creature that they don't want to have bolted. That can play in your favor of board control and that's where you need to be against that deck. Grim would have been great against this one if you had it.

Miracles I would never side out Fireblast completely in any MU really. I would have taken out PoP instead of Fireblast since PoP is nearly a dead card. Guide will feed their craving for land, so I probably would have taken Guide out instead of Swiftspear. I also would have kept the Smash in the side and brought in Bridge. That could be a bad play though as I haven't seen Miracle Blade before and I've never played against Miracles with Burn yet. I'm not sure what you're trying to tag with it beside SDT? Moving on, I feel like you're trying to play a control game against Miracles and you're just going to be outclassed about it. Keep the blasts in the side for the Delver decks.

I would have left Bridge in the side. I've been run over before I could even cast it and even then my hand was never empty enough to stop 2/2s. Keep the Searing effects in. It removes creatures and deals damage. I would have kept the Blaze and Spike.

I can't say much about Show decks. The only one I've come across was Omnitell, but again not much experience there. I think you're playing too much into a control game against superior control decks. Mull to your hate in match ups where it's absolutely needed(quick kill decks), and try not to side out too much of your damage spells. It's easy to forget that this is a combo deck and siding out too much of what makes the deck work waters down its goal of burning players out. Usually siding out four or more combo spells to make room for sideboard cards can do this.

Also, I dislike Swiftspear. The success she's had in Delver decks is due to them chaining cantrips. She also doesn't play well with Eidolon, which against Delver decks, Eidolon is the superior card.

[Chatto]

Elves: -3 Sulfuric Vortex, -3 Rift Bolt, +3 Ensnaring Bridge, +3 Grafdigger's Cage

Keep/ board everything in that can kill creatures.


Miracle-Blade (R2 and R3): -4 Swiftspear, -4 Fireblast, -1 Chain Lightning, +3 Smash to Smithereens, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Vexing Shusher, +1 REB

I dropped Swiftspear from my own list, but if I would keep her in if she was MD. Miracles runs a lot of fetch: PoP is actually pretty good for messing up the top card, so I would only shave some. Here, I would board in P-Needle, if it was in my SB.

Also, don't suspend Rift Bolt, rather pay the full cmc.

Miracles is one of the reasons why I splash green for K-Grip. I loath everything about this deck :smile:


Dredge: -3 Sulfuric Vortex, -2 Searing Blaze, -1 Lava Spike, +3 Ensnaring Bridge, +3 Grafdigger's Cage

Again, keep/ board in everything that can kill (your) creatures: I would first start with taking Lava Spike out when boarding in Ensnaring Bridge. Then again, you want to race them, so taking out Vortex makes a lot if sense.


Sneak and Show: -3 Sulfuric Vortex, -3 Price of Progress, +3 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Pyroblast, +1 REB

Jup, would have boarded the same with your SB.

[bigwerdz]

@burnwillows
It looks like your sideboard has little help for elves. Cage stops NO but in my limited testing I don't like e-bridge. I just board out the 2 vortex and a lava spike for my 3 searing blaze. As far as sneak and show goes I disagree with your sideboard plan. Sulfuric vortex stops the life gain from grislebrand and price hits way too hard to side out. Searing blaze doesn't kill anything in that MU so I'd dump that first.

My last couple run ins with miracles at my LGS have not ended well for me. Before my next large tourney I am going to mess with a couple sb slots. I think I am going to dump the 2 SB pyroblasts for 2 vexing shushers or more likely 2 pithing needles or null rods. I have found myself only bringing pyroblasts for miracles so if I am going to have 2 slots dedicated to that MU I want it to be more impactful. I'm testing nullrod first as it seems more likely to resolve later in the game and has splash hate for LED. I ran 2 shushers before and know they are very effective against miracles so that will prolly be the fall back if I'm not digging the artifacts. Lemme know what you guys think about those choices.

[beebles]

Jup, would have boarded the same with your SB.

Um I don't know if you want to board out Sulfuric Vortex vs. Sneak attack. The ability to turn off Griselbrand's life gain is kind of huge. Plus that deck also you know, ussually runs 4 leyline.

[Chatto]

Um I don't know if you want to board out Sulfuric Vortex vs. Sneak attack. The ability to turn off Griselbrand's life gain is kind of huge. Plus that deck also you know, ussually runs 4 leyline.

Ooh I know, but I've never been lucky enough to get to three mana as they just went in with Emrakul first, or counter Vortex if I had three lands. Luck isn't on my side when facing SnT. In fact, I only won a game once, and all because of my opponent being manascrewed. Now the last time I played P-Needle on Griselbrand, while keeping burn-pressure: just narrowly lost, again :smile:

[Nordvoll]

Ooh I know, but I've never been lucky enough to get to three mana as they just went in with Emrakul first, or counter Vortex if I had three lands. Luck isn't on my side when facing SnT. In fact, I only won a game once, and all because of my opponent being manascrewed. Now the last time I played P-Needle on Griselbrand, while keeping burn-pressure: just narrowly lost, again :smile:

A resolved Show & tell will help you with that :wink:

[Krimson Viper]

Got my teeth kicked in again. I feel like I had some bad luck, bad plays, and just a bad time. Still love the deck though. My deck list:

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
9 Mountain

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Sudden Shock
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
I won a grand total of zero matches and one official game lol. I say that because I got a game loss for presenting and playing a fifty six card deck and not realizing it until we go to sideboards. We played out the following two games just for fun.

Game one against some kind of Esper Deathblade deck. It had two Stifle, one Counterbalance and one Sensei's Divining Top. I got him all the way down to one life, but he had Counterbalance in play with Liliana of the Veil and Jace. I would have had him if I it were Comp REL and I didn't know him. I cast Bolt to kill him, he said ok, then as he is picking up his graveyard he remembers his Counterbalance trigger and blind flips a Brainstorm. Downhill from there for me as I just get nothing but lands. Thank you Jace. I'm sure that if I had taken out his turn one DRS this game would have been mine.
I can't remember what I side out and in, but I'm pretty sure it's my artifact hate cards and out Grim. Game two mull to six and I keep a land heavy hand and it's just too slow. I know I saw none of my SB cards though because I was questioning killed by Skull beats.

Match two is against some kind of home brew combo deck. It was based off of Spanish Inquisition. He combos off turn three or four and down to six life and I mulled to five here. Game two was a loss because this is where I left out my Searing Blaze by accident. I knew I took out my SB after match one. We play it out and I have a blazingly fast hand with Eidolon turn two for insurance purposes. Game three, I think he would have won if he fetched for his basics like he knew she should have, but I PoP for six and Bolt his life after GG beats. I'm pretty sure I took out Vortex for Crypt and Searing Blaze for Sudden Shock.

Match three was against Miracles with SFM + equipment. Game one went on for something like ten and more turns. I didn't know what he was on until he found Counter + Top and I spent all three of my Rift Bolts and kept three Lava Spike in hand. Face palm as I'm locked out of the game for a very slow death from Clique. Out Searing Blaze and PoP, in Sudden Shock, Vortex, and artifact hate. Game two was won after a mull to five and countering until he had Batterskull in play found off of SFM tutored for it.

Match four was against BUG Delver. Game one was close, but he won off of two Goyfs. I casted Sulfuric Vortex with four lands in play and a Grim. He was down to four life and he played Daze to counter my Vortex. I should have paid it instead of using Grim to block and burn as he had no answer to Vortex and it would have killed him on his next upkeep. Instead I drew a land my following turn and died from the crack back of the Goyfs. Game two I win from a back and forth race. Game three I mull to five and keep a single land hand and nothing but a GG and two mana or more spells. Delver gets him there. I bring in two Crypts I hope to shrink his Goys and side out Vortex as the added hits to myself is extremely deciding. I think I should have just brough out Spike and brought in Sudden Shock for uncounterable answers for Delver and DRS.

I lost the die roll all day. What would I have changed in the deck? I think I will be moving to Flame Rift instead of Searing Blaze and putting the third Vortex into my main. My side would have changed to add one more artifact hate as Tezzeret and Thopter Combo came out to play today. Seriously, fifteen players and three were Tezz control, one on Thopter Combo, and another on Cloudnaught. SFM decks as well.

Well, I won't be playing Magic until a month or two before November. I need to save money for a move and every little bit counts. I'll still be sticking around the boards though. Here and MTGS.

[datanaga]

Got my teeth kicked in again. I feel like I had some bad luck, bad plays, and just a bad time. Still love the deck though. My deck list:

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
9 Mountain

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Sudden Shock
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
I won a grand total of zero matches and one official game lol. I say that because I got a game loss for presenting and playing a fifty six card deck and not realizing it until we go to sideboards. We played out the following two games just for fun.

Game one against some kind of Esper Deathblade deck. It had two Stifle, one Counterbalance and one Sensei's Divining Top. I got him all the way down to one life, but he had Counterbalance in play with Liliana of the Veil and Jace. I would have had him if I it were Comp REL and I didn't know him. I cast Bolt to kill him, he said ok, then as he is picking up his graveyard he remembers his Counterbalance trigger and blind flips a Brainstorm. Downhill from there for me as I just get nothing but lands. Thank you Jace. I'm sure that if I had taken out his turn one DRS this game would have been mine.
I can't remember what I side out and in, but I'm pretty sure it's my artifact hate cards and out Grim. Game two mull to six and I keep a land heavy hand and it's just too slow. I know I saw none of my SB cards though because I was questioning killed by Skull beats.

Match two is against some kind of home brew combo deck. It was based off of Spanish Inquisition. He combos off turn three or four and down to six life and I mulled to five here. Game two was a loss because this is where I left out my Searing Blaze by accident. I knew I took out my SB after match one. We play it out and I have a blazingly fast hand with Eidolon turn two for insurance purposes. Game three, I think he would have won if he fetched for his basics like he knew she should have, but I PoP for six and Bolt his life after GG beats. I'm pretty sure I took out Vortex for Crypt and Searing Blaze for Sudden Shock.

Match three was against Miracles with SFM + equipment. Game one went on for something like ten and more turns. I didn't know what he was on until he found Counter + Top and I spent all three of my Rift Bolts and kept three Lava Spike in hand. Face palm as I'm locked out of the game for a very slow death from Clique. Out Searing Blaze and PoP, in Sudden Shock, Vortex, and artifact hate. Game two was won after a mull to five and countering until he had Batterskull in play found off of SFM tutored for it.

Match four was against BUG Delver. Game one was close, but he won off of two Goyfs. I casted Sulfuric Vortex with four lands in play and a Grim. He was down to four life and he played Daze to counter my Vortex. I should have paid it instead of using Grim to block and burn as he had no answer to Vortex and it would have killed him on his next upkeep. Instead I drew a land my following turn and died from the crack back of the Goyfs. Game two I win from a back and forth race. Game three I mull to five and keep a single land hand and nothing but a GG and two mana or more spells. Delver gets him there. I bring in two Crypts I hope to shrink his Goys and side out Vortex as the added hits to myself is extremely deciding. I think I should have just brough out Spike and brought in Sudden Shock for uncounterable answers for Delver and DRS.

I lost the die roll all day. What would I have changed in the deck? I think I will be moving to Flame Rift instead of Searing Blaze and putting the third Vortex into my main. My side would have changed to add one more artifact hate as Tezzeret and Thopter Combo came out to play today. Seriously, fifteen players and three were Tezz control, one on Thopter Combo, and another on Cloudnaught. SFM decks as well.

Well, I won't be playing Magic until a month or two before November. I need to save money for a move and every little bit counts. I'll still be sticking around the boards though. Here and MTGS.

I understand you completely, because it sounds like my last 5+ tournaments playing burn (similar build with main: 3lavamancers/3blazes/2vortexs/20lands(10fetches)), every time I finished 2:2:0 (prizes are for 3:1 or better)

btw never ever side in crypts vs goyfs they are useless!

[Sloshthedark]

I understand you completely, because it sounds like my last 5+ last tournaments with burn (similar build with main: 3lavamancers/3blazes/2vortexs/20lands(10fetches)), every time I finished 2:2:0 (prizes are for 3:1 or better)

btw never ever side in crypts vs goyfs is useless!

time to step up from a 2:2 deck to a 3:1 deck ; )

[datanaga]

time to step up from a 2:2 deck to a 3:1 deck ; )

True, with burn you need some extra luck (good draws and pairings) and then it works really well, but that is not my case:(

You know what I already buid and I'm working on?:)

[Dr. No Face]

Am I the only one that runs Swiftspear anymore? Whenever I see a burn list do well, it seems to run 11 creatures, 4 being goblin guide, 4 being eidolon, and 3 being lavamancers.

I mean, I guess 1 damage on turn 1 isn't good, but it helps close the game out quickly by being bigger for the other 3 turns they are alive typically.

My list for reference (a bit more creature heavy) :


4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
11 Mountain

SB: 2 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Searing Blood
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar


I've been needing to replace Crypt with Faerie Macabre. Other than that, any comments? I've been liking this list a lot so far.

[f7eleven]

Other than that, any comments? I've been liking this list a lot so far.

Personally, I prefer my deck to be exactly 60 cards, and not 61. I started with burn with your same creature suite a few weeks ago and am now on the more common 4-4-3 (no swiftspears). There's several comments throughout this thread explaining why lavamancer is better than swiftspear. Or just keep playing the deck, and you'll get there on your own like almost everyone has.

[Sloshthedark]

True, with burn you need some extra luck (good draws and pairings) and then it works really well, but that is not my case:(

You know what I already buid and I'm working on?:)

Feels like I have a Manaless vs. Burn (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29129-Manaless-Dredge-or-Burn) flashback .. I'm not sure If performance improves, I'll be most happy to get paired with you... on the other side I Dredge is great B deck when people are unprepared, Burn falls in the same "rogue" category kind of ... other than that just buy some Seas and play magic :cool:...

[datanaga]

Feels like I have a Manaless vs. Burn (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29129-Manaless-Dredge-or-Burn) flashback .. I'm not sure If performance improves, I'll be most happy to get paired with you... on the other side I Dredge is great B deck when people are unprepared, Burn falls in the same "rogue" category kind of ... other than that just buy some Seas and play magic :cool:...
You are right (as usual) see: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid&p=871814&viewfull=1#post871814
On the other hand, it was not planned, I just accidentaly bought it for cheap:)
On more serious note I also have Infect and BWg Deadguy prepared, I almost hear you laughing at these decks, because no one is tier 1:)
Maybe one day I will sell all of them and buy into something like bug delver/esper blade variant and pimp it up, like you did with ANT, but now Im happy with 4 deck I can build at the same time.

[echofish]

Does anyone have any side board tech against omnitell? I used to run Ashen Rider, but nowdays they will show Omniscience and wish for Trickbind and counter Ashen Rider's ETB trigger. Don't bother mention Pyroblast, because they always have more counterspells.

[Ultrab77]

Hi,

Just wanted to share a few thoughts after I top4'd our monthly event at the store.

My list (totally classic)


4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
11 Mountain

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Searing Blood



The meta was lot of aggro and Elves. I went 4-1 :

Round 1 vs Elves (2-1) : G1 I T1 GG, T2 bolt his DRS, T3 Eidolon and it's game. G2 I side in searing blood and bridge but he comboes out T4. G3 I burn him down to 3 with no card in hand left. His board is ready for combo but I draw a bolt :)

Round 2 vs Patriot Delver (2-0) : I don't remember well but it was 2 easy games, I just bolted the Delver and burned him out.

Round 3 vs Dredge (2-0) : G1 I'm on the play, he dies to my T4 double Fireblast. G2 I bring in my Relics and we both mull to 4 (!!) and I keep 2 mountains, EotGR, bolt. He does't draw a land for the first 3 turns and I just kill him attacking with Eidolon and 2 lavamancers and eventually a little burn.

Round 4 vs Canadian Threshold (2-0) : two tough, close games. Don't remember well G1 but G2 my Relic did the job, I'm down to 5 but I kill his 2 Tarmo and 1 Delver in one turn. Then I just attack and finish with a FB.

Round 5 vs Miracles (1-2) : G1 he has the lock on table, down to 5. The counterbalance counter my first FB by revealing Terminus. Then he fetches but I play my 2nd FB too quick so it was judged as an answer to the fetch and he can counter it again (my mistake). I eventually draw a Vortex and he can't answer, it's a win. G2 and G3 I get my Needle for his Top, but he crushes me with angels tokens.

We decided then to split the prize because it was already late.

I just played a match vs a cool guy I had met, playing MUD. My *ss is still sour from the two hard defeats with Trinisphere and the Golem on the table.

So here a few humble comments:
- Relic and Needle were very good!!
- I didn't bring in the REB, I'm thinking to switch with Vexing Shusher especially for Miracles where I feel like a hudge underdog
- playing vs MUD was a complete catastrophy!! Any idea? I brought in my StS but I think I should have mulled for mana intensive hands.

So if you have any idea for helping in matchups vs Miracles and MUD (there were 2 or 3 of both) it would help!

Thanks

[paeng4983]

- I didn't bring in the REB, I'm thinking to switch with Vexing Shusher especially for Miracles where I feel like a hudge underdog
Yep! Never leave this devil behind. It is a house vs CB-top lock.



- playing vs MUD was a complete catastrophy!! Any idea? I brought in my StS but I think I should have mulled for mana intensive hands
Bridge and Smash is enough (I guess). Just pray that he will not set his COTV at 2.



So if you have any idea for helping in matchups vs Miracles and MUD (there were 2 or 3 of both) it would help!
Thanks
vs. Miracles
in: 2 Needle, 3 V.Devil,
out: 2 Guide, 3 S.Blaze

vs. MUD
in: 3 Bridge, 3 Smash
out: 2 Guide, 4 Eidolon

I hope this helps you.
^_^

[sirlaser]

Hello,

New Burn player here. Question about sideboard grave hate.

I'm unfamiliar with the probabilities of drawing at least one of a 4-of in your opening hand, or within the first 1-3 mulligans, but no one seems to run Leyline of the Void?

Can someone explain? Thank you!

[xieyun006]

Hello,

New Burn player here. Question about sideboard grave hate.

I'm unfamiliar with the probabilities of drawing at least one of a 4-of in your opening hand, or within the first 1-3 mulligans, but no one seems to run Leyline of the Void?

Can someone explain? Thank you!

Most decks you can use Leyline against can deal with it, making aggressive mulligan for this card not worth while, since it won't lock them out completely. This coupled with the fact that if you draw multiples, or draw into them after the game has started they are completely dead cards. Also doesn't work very well against goyfs since it'll still get fat off of your grave. These are my reasons for not playing Leylines.

[Chatto]

Hello,

New Burn player here. Question about sideboard grave hate.

I'm unfamiliar with the probabilities of drawing at least one of a 4-of in your opening hand, or within the first 1-3 mulligans, but no one seems to run Leyline of the Void?

Can someone explain? Thank you!

Well, because you DON'T want to mull for a LotV. You don't have a way to refill your hand, so mulling for them is a bad thing. You don't want multiples, because most of the time you are unable to cast them during the game. That's it, if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: ninja'd

[sirlaser]

Most decks you can use Leyline against can deal with it, making aggressive mulligan for this card not worth while, since it won't lock them out completely. This coupled with the fact that if you draw multiples, or draw into them after the game has started they are completely dead cards. Also doesn't work very well against goyfs since it'll still get fat off of your grave. These are my reasons for not playing Leylines.


Well, because you DON'T want to mull for a LotV. You don't have a way to refill your hand, so mulling for them is a bad thing. You don't want multiples, because most of the time you are unable to cast them during the game. That's it, if I'm not mistaken.

Thank you! Follow up question - if you had a choice, then, between:

Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Grafdigger's Cage

Which one would you run? Are there more suitable options than these three?

[Chatto]

I had a similair discussion with friends, and we came up with the following:

Combo:
Leyline (only Dredge)
Surgical Extraction
Crypt
Grafdigger's Cage (slow combo)

Control:
Grafdigger's Cage
Relic

Aggro:
Faerie Macabre
Surgical Extraction
Crypt

Midrange:
Leyline (you can mull to LotV because every card has a high impact)
Relic
Crypt

Right now I'm running Crypt, because it's free. It's really meta-depending, really

[bigwerdz]

I switched from relic of progenitus to tormod's crypt. The cantrip off relic was nice but I like not losing tempo when using crypt. I've found that if I can keep up my normal pace that dumping the graveyard once is enough.

[Krimson Viper]

I switched from relic of progenitus to tormod's crypt. The cantrip off relic was nice but I like not losing tempo when using crypt. I've found that if I can keep up my normal pace that dumping the graveyard once is enough.

I'm with this guy.

Bigwerdz, you missed the stream today. A Burn player grilled a Miracles player, 2-0. It was amazing.

[xieyun006]

Against reamimator, or even dredge I take Faerie Macabre, one of the best ways I've heard to describe burn sideboarding strategy is: 'I don't need to lock my opponent out, I just need them to stumble'. This is very true because we have a pretty fast, and consistent clock, when I do lose with burn I'm usually one turn, or one bolt short. I like Macabre because it can't be countered which matters soo much against reanimator, or blue based combo, its free, thus not taxing on my mana, and tempo, and it cant be discarded by duress.

Crypt would be my second choice, especially against dredge, but I've lost games where reanimator player force of will'ed my crypt and comboed of in two turns.

I've played Leylines before, and dredge is the only deck that it totally hose, except they can chain of vapor it eot, and discard it or just let it rot in your hand, while they eat you alive. So its not an auto win.

[Brael]

Thank you! Follow up question - if you had a choice, then, between:

Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Grafdigger's Cage

Which one would you run? Are there more suitable options than these three?

Of those three options I would run Tormod's Crypt. Honestly though I'm not a fan of any of those. My GY hate of choice is Faerie Macabre. It's 0 mana, instant, the play isn't telegraphed, and it can only be countered by Stifle.

A couple weeks back I had the following play happen on turn 1 of the game against Dredge, I was on the play:
T1 - Cephalid Colosseum, Lion's Eye Diamond
EoT - Crack LED for 3 blue, discard hand, hit threshold, Activate Colosseum.

Because I had the Faerie, in response I was able to exile his two dredgers and effectively waste his hand/land. A Tormod's Crypt would have prevented him from ever going for it, a Relic would have required I keep mana up, and the Cage would have done nothing. Instead I got a great exchange out of it and went on to win that game.


Am I the only one that runs Swiftspear anymore? Whenever I see a burn list do well, it seems to run 11 creatures, 4 being goblin guide, 4 being eidolon, and 3 being lavamancers.

I mean, I guess 1 damage on turn 1 isn't good, but it helps close the game out quickly by being bigger for the other 3 turns they are alive typically.

I still run Swiftspear. I haven't played Burn in probably a month but the last time I played it, it was great. 1 damage on turn 1 isn't great but Lavamancer is 0 damage on turn 1 so I don't see that as much of an argument. On turn 2 if you have fuel Lavamancer is 2 damage compared to Swiftspears 2-3. I play Lavamancer too but he's not there for the damage, I already have enough of that. He's there to let my other guys get in without me having to invest cards.

Here's my current list. A lot here don't seem to like my lists but I don't really know what to say, they work very well for me against a field of good players (a couple have won Opens, one has a PT top 8). I may rethink things and add Atarka's Command. I need to ponder it a bit, it's almost a strictly better Skullcrack but it means fetching the green in every game I want it and if I'm going that route I have trouble not just going black for Tyrant's Choice instead. On the other hand I love the idea of being able to convert a Skullcrack into 4-5 damage when it's otherwise just being a bad Incinerate. I would like to work some Vexing Shushers into the board but I can't find room, fortunately Miracles doesn't really show up much. I never feel like that match is hopeless but so much of it comes down to sequencing and anticipating what the Miracles player thinks you're going to do.


//Land 19
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
1 Taiga

//Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer

//Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Skullcrack
3 Searing Blaze
3 Rift Bolt
2 Collateral Damage
3 Sulfuric Vortex

//Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Skullcrack
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grim Lavamancer

[Krimson Viper]

It's interesting to see Skullcrack. I've seen one other list run it and I feel it's a nice little surprise. I haven't run it in Legacy, but in Modern its a beating.

[Brael]

It's interesting to see Skullcrack. I've seen one other list run it and I feel it's a nice little surprise. I haven't run it in Legacy, but in Modern its a beating.

I hate Skullcrack but I like being able to stop lifegain. Modern has more lifegain than Legacy has but a bit of incremental value from DRS or a Batterskull can really creates some problems since the mana is so much more pain free. Lifelinkers are part of the reason I use Collateral Damage as well, that card lets me swing into something like Batterskull or Griselbrand and push damage through when I ordinarily wouldn't be to do a thing.

When Skullcrack is good it's completely invaluable and is worth 5-7 damage on it's own when you include the prevented life. When it's bad though it's worse than Incinerate so it's a very high variance card. That's part of what I like about Atarka's Command, the variance is a whole lot smaller. Of course the need for RG is a big issue because it makes you vulnerable to Wasteland and makes your Price of Progress worse. The card is for sure going to be a staple in Modern Burn, and while it's less good in Legacy I think it still merits some testing. It may mean going up to 2 Taiga's for some redundancy.

[bigwerdz]

After some conversation at the shop I play at I was asked to write an article about how I play burn. Check it out. http://bccomix.com/playing-the-game-with-legacy-burn-cameron-ramsay/

[echofish]

After some conversation at the shop I play at I was asked to write an article about how I play burn. Check it out. http://bccomix.com/playing-the-game-with-legacy-burn-cameron-ramsay/


What is Sacred Foundry for? Why Tormod's Crypt over Faerie Macabre in sideboard?

[bigwerdz]

Well that sacred foundry was supposed to be an arid mesa. That slipped through editing. I think crypt is just better then faerie macabre. It has more applications in more match ups. I played both for a long time and just like crypt better.

[echofish]

Well that sacred foundry was supposed to be an arid mesa. That slipped through editing. I think crypt is just better then faerie macabre. It has more applications in more match ups. I played both for a long time and just like crypt better.

What other matchups do you bring it in besides Reanimator and Tin Fins (which both can win turn one, while you sit with your crypt in hand)?

I think bringing it in vs goyf decks is just bad. They will refill their gy really fast. I would rather have a burn spell, or if I would be forced to play something that is not in the nature of burn, then Ensnaring Bridge, which keeps all their creatures in check (except Deathrite).

[bigwerdz]

Yeah you just beat goyf decks naturally. I just bring crypt in against reanimator, tinfins, dredge, and past in flames storm. Yeah those decks CAN go off turn one but most times they don't. If they have the nuts they have the nuts. I've found that typically all I need to do is purge the yard once and can win before they rebuild. In my experience crypt has wider range and I like it better. If I couldn't play crypt I think macabre is the next best option.

[echofish]

Yeah you just beat goyf decks naturally. I just bring crypt in against reanimator, tinfins, dredge, and past in flames storm. Yeah those decks CAN go off turn one but most times they don't. If they have the nuts they have the nuts. I've found that typically all I need to do is purge the yard once and can win before they rebuild. In my experience crypt has wider range and I like it better. If I couldn't play crypt I think macabre is the next best option.

All the decks you mention doesn't need the full gy, just some key cards. Then why not just use Macabre? It can't be duressed, destroyed, countered, it's free and instant. What is the wider range? If you are going to write an article about burn, then please don't misinform newbeginners to play bad cards.