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feline
03-26-2013, 06:54 PM
http://i.imgur.com/tqXSKxJ.jpg

One of the longest running strategies in Legacy is to just "burn" the opponent out, literally casting burn in Lightning Bolt & variants of 1 cast 3 damage spells, or other similarly effective cards. On top of that, the mono red deck is one of the cheapest strategies you can play that has had the level of success it's achieved in the format.

1) Playing Burn
2) Successful decklists & trends
3) Card Choices
3a) Maindeck
3b) Sideboard
4) Price Guide
5) Awesome Links
6) Previous Burn thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7811-Deck-Burn special thanks to Peter_Rotten (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?41-Peter_Rotten)
7) 20 Match ups

1) Playing Burn:
Overall strategy Your ultimate goal, like any deck, is to win the match, more specifically with burn, it's to just go all out aggressive, burn the opponent down from 20 to 0 as fast as possible, whether the opponent is playing combo, aggro, control or whatever, you are pushing to win the game as fast as possible and take the win before they do anything relevant, the hardest match up's will be those that are just faster than you, mostly being combo decks, while most other match up's will just be a race through their own clock for lethal and/or their disruption when they have it.

Starting hand Mostly you'll be looking for hands that are mostly burn and a couple lands, the strategy for the deck is just all out aggression, so as long as you're doing something you're doing your job, if you mulligan it will almost always be based on the land count, or lack there of.

Turns 1-2 You'll want to start out with a creature drop if you have it, specifically Goblin Guide since over the course of turns it has the potential to do 2 damage over and over again, depending on the strategy you're going against, if it keeps connecting to the opponent each turn. Grim Lavamancer also has the potential to do 2 damage recurring, however it will cost 1 per each activation, but does not require an attack step. After that you'll want to burn your Lava Spikes & Flame Rifts since they can only hit the opponent anyway. Rift Bolt also takes a turn to hit when you suspend it, so it's another you'll want to cast earlier.

Turn's 3 & later This is more where you'll cast your other burn spells Lightning Bolt & Chain Lightning because you may want it as removal against some creatures, while Price of Progress may do more damage because the more non basics the opponent has in play, the more damage it can hit for. Sulfuric Vortex, especially against slower decks, will also come down, with the potential to finish them off with a "soft lock" that does 2 damage every one of their upkeeps, & the ability to prevent lifegain against stuff like Baterskull as an example, so they don't catch up & you can finish them off with burn when they're stuck at low life from your earlier aggression. Your other "finisher" would be Fireblast since once they are at 4 or less life, you can just finish them off right there for "free" at the cost of 2 mountains, preventing them from getting to another turn in a chance to turn the game around by just killing them right there. Without disruption, your average damage will be lethal, 20 damage, on turn 4.

"Goldfishing" / "Practicing" Similar to a combo deck, you can get a basic feel for the deck even just by playing solitaire, sitting & playing it out while counting to 20, trying to do that much damage as fast as you can & seeing what turn you're on when you put out that much. In doing so, you'll see that while the average turn is 4, sometimes you can even do enough damage on turn 3, usually with the help of Fireblast or a turn 1 Goblin Guide that does 2 damage per turn, over the course of each attack phase. This, however, is just a base, as playing against an actual opponent they will likely have some interactions with you, many of which may come down to whether or not to burn a creature, burn the opponent, or even save it for a turn before committing.

Additional notes: by Justin (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?5023-Justin)
When playing Burn, you don't always want to aim every spell at the opponent's dome. There are certain creatures that you will want to kill, especially if it's turn one and you are on the draw. A turn one Goblin Lackey, for example, is something that you will usually want to get off the board. You also want to kill early creatures from aggressive decks that can outrace you, including the mirror-match, UR Burn, and WR Sligh. If an opponent drops an early Goblin Guide, Delver of Secrets, Grim Lavamancer, or Steppe Lynx, you will need to kill those creature. You also need to be prepared to take out creatures that can gain life against you, such as Deathrite Shaman. Sometimes you have no choice but to throw a Fireblast at a Germ token with Batterskull. So playing this deck is not just about goldfishing to do 20 damage to the opponents dome. You need to realize when to adjust your strategy and interact with your opponent's board.

On the question of which bolt spells to cast first, I usually favor Rift Bolt. The reason is that you have to wait a turn to cast it for R, so it's best to cast them early. When your strategy is to do 20 damage ASAP, I would value the one-drops in this order: Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lighting, and Lighting Bolt. When you are concerned about removing your opponent's creatures this might change to: Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lightning Bolt.

History: Burn, mono red, etc, these full aggression strategies have been a long time deck in Magic for years, but the breakout for burn strategies in recent Legacy would be 2011, followed by 2012 which had even more success.

2) Successful decklists & trends: from here http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/ & http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&page=1
2009:
9th place - David Kilmartin SCG Boston (187 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29175)
15th place - Gene Richtsmeier SCG St Louis (128 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30595)

2010:
29th place - Patrick Sullivan GP Columbus (1,397 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37305)
2nd place - Kyle Miller SCG Denver (125 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34664)

2011:
6th place - David Menor Gutierrez - Open City of Bridges, Spain (171 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5763&iddeck=41734)
5th place - Patrick Sullivan SCG Los Angeles (216 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37491)
7th place - Michele Salardi - Legnano-MLL#8 (116 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5909&iddeck=42839)
1st place - Manuel Gomez - LCL Lliga Catalana de Legacy 4, Abril, inGenio (118 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5939&iddeck=43054)
14th place - Iain Bartolomei SCG Denver (117 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38939)
15th place - Jacob Shapiro SCG Cincinnati (228 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39695)
8th place - Luisma Augusto - Eternal Weekend 2011 Legacy Main Event (293 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6904&iddeck=50088)
8th place - Samuel Davis SCG Kansas (156 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42046)
8th place - Austin Yost SCG Las Vegas (168 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42137)

2012:
1st place - Austin Yost SCG Washington (234 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43392)
1st place - James Allen SCG Richmond (118 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43737)
11th place - Cary Duncan SCG Cincinnati (297 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43860)
2nd place - Anthony Phaneuf SCG Memphis (94 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44236)
13th place - Lou Stefanovic SCG Tampa (141 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44345)
16th place - Jeremy Dunn SCG Tampa (141 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44348)
11th place - Issac Sears SCG Sacramento (116 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44903)
5th place - Burt Hamernick SCG Des Moines (148 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45367)
7th place - Niklas Rauterberg - Legacy Event in Maintal (127 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8137&iddeck=59337)
5th place - Robert Swiecki - Magiccardmarket 5th anniversary tournament (131 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8202&iddeck=59817)
15th place - James Syed SCG Worchester (213 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46828)
32nd place - Lou Stefanovic SCG Worchester (213 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46811)
30th place - Burt Hamernick SCG Indianapolis (313 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47071)
14th place - Jay Shield SCG Washington DC (350 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48475)
19th place - Charles R Dyk 2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship (350 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65739)
30th place - Charles Fitzgerald 2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship (350 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65750)
3rd place - Patrick Sullivan SCG Los Angeles (235 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49446)
8th place - Ali Aintrazi SCG Invitational Atlanta (311 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536)
21st place - Joel Gibson SCG Dallas (175 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50690)
9th place - Jacob Dobbs SCG Los Angeles (269 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51706)

2013:
31st place - Michael Shelkofsky SCG Atlanta (230 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52869)
16th place - Jacob Harris SCG Cincinnati (279 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53164)
12th place - Jacob Dobbs SCG Las Vegas (142 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53619)
3rd place - Doug Honeycutt SCG Atlanta (349 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59114)
16th place - Jeremy Maciolek SCG Atlanta (349 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59131)
22nd place - Jacob Pettie - Tales of Tales of Adventure - Coopersburg, PA (186 plyers) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12384&iddeck=90758)

2014:
12th place - Hugo Villamor SCG Orlando (239 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62556)
5th place - Eddie Chalecki - LCL 2014, March (121 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13245&iddeck=97215) Deathburn
6th place - Joey Lively SCG Dallas (308 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66160)
4th place - Gentile Simone - Evil 10, Padova, Tarmogeddon 9 (205 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13417&iddeck=98543)
14th place - Jon Thiel SCG Indianapolis (346 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68367)
14th place - Lou Stefanovic SCG Providence (302 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68714)
16th place - Jamie Syed SCG Providence (302 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68715)
9th place - John Ware SCG Las Vegas (232 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69151)
1st place - Bryan Cambidge SCG Las Vegas (232 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69131)
9th place - Forrest Ashmore SCG Portland (296 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69455)
4th place - Charlie Mitchell SCG Worcester (290 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69788)
7th place - Brian Cooper SCG Kansas City (256 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70523)
23rd place - Kevin Stanley SCG Kansas City (256 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70536)
29th place - Logan Martin SCG Kansas City (256 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70525)
13th place - Matthew Long - Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravaganza (266 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14283&iddeck=105311)
8th place - Alex Johnson SCG Syracuse (230 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71452)
11th place - Ben Burchett SCG Washington DC (285 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72102)
8th place - Robert Wright SCG Atlanta (263 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72870)
8th place - Jackson Smith SCG Indianapolis (260 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73414)
9th place - Jim Davis SCG Worcester (225 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74784)
3rd place - Oliver Coffey SCG Portland (228 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77169)
8th place - Florian Stange - JK Legacy Cup (153 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15771&iddeck=117451)

2015:
6th place - Cameron Ramsay SCG Indianapolis (582 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79340)
16th place - Ben Henkes SCG Houston (143 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80086)
9th place - Trent Avera SCG Dallas (190 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81104)
7th place - Jacob Shannon SCG Syracuse (107 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82334)
14th place - Nicholas Herbs SCG Syracuse (107 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82336)
1st place - Adam Minniear SCG Indianapolis (121 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86599)
4th place - John Taylor SCG Charlotte (80 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90067)
12th place - Cristiano Silva - Impact Returns Legacy Event (107 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17676&iddeck=133140)
5th place - Andrew Croy SCG Cincinnati (119 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91013)
7th place - Austin Casey SCG Cincinnati (119 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91021)
16th place - Jared Welsh SCG Cincinnati (119 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91015)
25th place - Chase Harrell SCG Indianapolis (130 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92443)
30th place - Kyle Beltran SCG Indianapolis (130 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92434)
16th place - Jon Janssen SCG Atlanta (95 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92685)
11th place - Trent Avera SCG Dallas (98 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=94583)
1st place - John Nickel - GP SeaTac Trial winner (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18751&iddeck=142200)
26th place - Kian Dre - GP SeaTac (2014 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18767&iddeck=142348)
5th place - Ben Stecher SCG Denver (80 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95880)
5th place - Henti Nuuttila - Finnish Legacy Championship (109 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18999&iddeck=144256)
6th place - Tuomas Tarna - Finnish Legacy Championship (109 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18999&iddeck=144257)

3) Card choices:

3a) Maindeck: (most common in recent trends in bold)
Creature:
Grim Lavamancer Repeatable 2 damage based on 1 mana & 2 cards in graveyard, overall the best "pinger" available for the deck
Goblin Guide 2/2 with haste, overall the best 1 drop attacker for the deck
Eidolon of the Great Revel A newer staple as of recent, Pyrostatic Pillar on legs
Monastery Swiftspear A newer, though less common staple. Works like a "mini combo" with your non creature spells
Keldon Marauders 3/3 for 2 with vanishing, that does 1 damage coming into play & leaving play. Though the most recent lists have gone to more straight burn
Hellspark Elemental 3/1 for 2 haste trample, can be replayed from the graveyard for 2. Though the most recent lists have gone to more straight burn
Vexing Devil less common As most recent lists run more straight burn
Figure of Destiny less common As most recent lists run more straight burn

Instant:
Fireblast 4 damage for "free" at the cost of 2 mountains, a staple for Legacy burn decks as a "finisher"
Lightning Bolt 3 damage for 1 mana, a staple for Legacy burn decks
Price of Progress Damage based on non basic lands, as most Legacy decks run more non basics, a Legacy burn staple
Searing Blaze Seen more commonly lately
Searing Blood Not as common as Searing Blaze but also in some lists

Sorcery:
Rift Bolt 3 damage to any target, cast for 3, or suspend for 1
Chain Lightning 3 damage to any target
Lava Spike 3 damage targeting players
Flame Rift 4 damage against all players

Other:
Sulfuric Vortex 2 damage on upkeep, stops lifegain

Land: (Average around 20 lands, anywhere from 8-12 fetchlands)
Mountain
Bloodstained Mire Wooded Foothills Scalding Tarn Arid Mesa Fetchlands, Grim Lavamancer fuel
Barbarian Ring (2 in some lists) 2 damage with threshold

3b) Sideboard:
~Graveyard hate:
Tormod's Crypt 0 cast
Relic of Progenitus Cantrips
Faerie Macabre "Uncounterable"
Leyline of the Void Starts in play
Grafdigger's Cage Also affects stuff from the library
Surgical Extraction "Free" to cast, removes all copies
~Blue hate:
Vexing Shusher Uncounterable & makes other spells so
Pyroblast Destroy blue permanent, counter blue spell
Red Elemental Blast Destroy blue permanent, counter blue spell
Burnout Counter blue instant, draw a card next upkeep
Volcanic Fallout 2 damage to creatures, uncounterable
~Artifact hate:
Smash to Smithereens Destroy artifact, do 3 damage
Shattering Spree Can hit multiple artifacts
~Sweepers:
Pyroclasm 2 damage to all creatures
Ratchet Bomb Destroys based on converted mana cost
Flamebreak 3 damage to all creatures, 3 players
Pyrokinesis 4 damage divided, with alternate casting cost
~Burn:
Pyrostatic Pillar Good against cheap, fast decks
Searing Blaze 3 damage to creature & player, with Landfall
Sulfuric Vortex 2 damage on upkeep, anti life gain
~Other:
Pithing Needle Affects activated, non mana abilities
Phyrexian Revoker "Pithing needle" with legs
Reverberate Copy an instant, sorcery spell
Reroute Retarget an activated ability
Phyrexian Metamorph Copy an artifact or creature
Ensnaring Bridge Especially against Show and Tell decks
Mindbreak Trap Usually against combo decks

4) Price guide of more known burn cards: As of March 2013 (For the most current prices, click on the link of each card) High-Mid-Low according to http://magiccards.info/ & http://magic.tcgplayer.com/all_magic_sets.asp
$20.00 to $50.00:
Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Bloodstained+Mire) $42.97 $37.29 $31.25
Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Wooded+Foothills) $41.18 $34.69 $29.47
Scalding Tarn (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Scalding+Tarn) $44.39 $34.80 $30.95
Arid Mesa (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Arid+Mesa) $39.98 $24.57 $20.89

$10.00 to $20.00:
Chain Lightning (http://magiccards.info/pd2/en/16.html) $16.03 $13.15 $10.87

$5.00 to $10.00:
Goblin Guide (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Goblin+Guide) $10.99 $7.02 $4.92
Vexing Devil (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Vexing+Devil) $8.95 $7.54 $6.20

$2.00 to $5.00:
Price of Progress (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/95.html) $4.99 $3.80 $2.85
Lava Spike (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Lava+Spike) $4.35 $3.56 $2.84
Sulfuric Vortex (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/106.html) $6.17 $4.08 $3.24

$1.00 to $2.00:
Grim Lavamancer (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Grim+Lavamancer) $2.97 $1.84 $0.95
Hellspark Elemental (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/65.html) $2.50 $1.67 $1.04
Rift Bolt (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Rift+Bolt) $2.88 $1.93 $1.20
Flame Rift (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Flame+Rift) $2.05 $1.30 $0.95

$1.00 or less average:
Keldon Marauders (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Keldon+Marauders) $0.74 $0.36 $0.20
Fireblast (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/79.html) $1.65 $0.98 $0.67
Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/146.html) $1.63 $0.95 $0.74
Mountain (http://magiccards.info/m12/en/242.html) $129.98(Guru) $6.09(Unhinged) $5.00(Unglued) $3.99(Beta) $0.75(Zendikar) $0.03(Basic)
http://i.imgur.com/jYfcKmZ.jpg

5) Awesome Links: In relation to Burn & Legacy
Price trends of Singles:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/4th_Edition/Lightning_Bolt

Burn articles/reports/etc:
2014:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27944_Burn-vs-Counters.html Burn against Counters (Patrick Sullivan)
2013:
http://www.essentialmagic.com/em2/Doc.aspx?hdocid=318&hdocpage=1 Essentialmagic.com
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/flongmore/its-summer-its-hot-its-time-to-burn/ Burn article, MTGdeals (Feline Longmore)

2012:
http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/quarterfinals_todd_anderson_ru.html Feature match, Burn in the top 8, SCG Invitational Atlanta (Ali Aintrazi)
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23732_Legacy-Week---Burn.html Article, after the two SCG 1st place wins (Patrick Sullivan)
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_anthony_phoneuf_vs_zac_.html Feature match, Burn in the finals, SCG Memphis (Anthony Phoneuf)
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_anthony_wilson_vs_james.html Feature match, Burn in the finals, SCG Richmond (James Allen)
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_austin_yost_vs_josh_cho.html Feature match, Burn in the finals, SCG Washington (Austin Yost)

2011:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21541-StarCityGamescom-Open-LA-Legacy-Burn-Report-5th.html Article, playing burn (Patrick Sullivan)

Burn decklist sources:
Starcitygames.com Burn (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2002-11-03&end_date=2013-03-31&city=&state=&country=&start=1&finish=32&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=lightning+bolt&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=chain+lightning&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=fireblast&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=date+desc&order_2=&limit=100&action=Show+Decks&p=1)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Burn&format=Legacy

Legacy metagame:
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&page=1
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24023-40-Tier-Legacy-Decks-Lists-Singles-Prices-etc-To-be-updated-regularly(started-2012)

6) The previous Burn thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7811-Deck-Burn & special thanks to Peter_Rotten (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?41-Peter_Rotten) as well as everyone else that participated in the thread since it's creation in 2007.

feline
03-26-2013, 06:55 PM
7) Match ups
01) RUG (Aggro, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are a tempo based aggro deck, using Nimble Mongoose Tarmogoyf & Delver of Secrets backed up by counterspells and a little burn in the form of Lightning bolt & sometimes Forked bolt or Chain Lightning. For the most part the match up will just be a race.

02) Esperblade (Control, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are a control type deck, using counterspells & discard as disruption, along with card advantage. Their potential kill conditions will be Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, Snapcaster Mage. Batterskull specifically will set you back as it gives them a 4/4 Lifelinker that doesn't tap to attack, so if they net it with a Stoneforge Mystic, don't let it put a Batterskull into play unless they're low enough to burn out before that happens.

03) UW Control variants (Control, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are a control deck with counterspells & some removal, they also have the option of Counterbalance Sensei's Divining Top to potentially counter your spells. Their kill conditions will either be Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Entreat the Angels, Stoneforge Mystic, Vendilion Clique and/or Snapcaster Mage & in some lists, Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace combo.

04) BUG aggro (Aggro, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are an aggro deck, backed up by counterspells/discard & some removal, including Abrupt Decay, their kill conditions will be Delver of Secrets Deathrite Shaman Tarmogoyf & possibly Tombstalker. Deathrite Shaman has the potential for life gain as well as doing damage to your life total or producing mana, while the remaining creatures are more basic. More midrange strategies will be a little slower, & possibly even running Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent & Ancestral Vision. For the most part this will be a race between both sides as to who hits their lethal first.

05) BUG control (Control, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are a control deck with counterspells, discard & removal, as well as the planeswalkers Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, they also usually run Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman as well as the possibility of Vendilion Clique. Again, watch out for Deathrite Shaman as it has the potential for life gain to set back your burn strategy.

06) Jund (Aggro, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are an aggro strategy backed up by burn & card advantage, possibly some discard in the form of Thoughtseize / Inquisition of Kozilek. Their card advantage will come from Hymn to Tourach Dark Confidant & Bloodbraid Elf, as well as Sylvan Library & Punishing Fire, though since you are a burn strategy, their Library will not net them many cards & the Punishing Fire combo will only affect your creatures for the most part. They also run Deathrite Shaman so watch out for potential life gain. For the most part it will be a race on both sides as to who can get to their lethal first, however they have the potential for card advantage the longer the game goes on so try to kill them earlier.

07) Dredge (Combo, Light playtesting required)
They are an aggressive combo deck that will work off of their graveyard to swarm you, Dredging cards to their graveyard by drawing them & milling themselves, while putting Ichorid & Narcomeba into pay, while triggering 2/2 zombie tokens off of Bridge from Below. Casting Cabal Therapy and Dread Return from their graveyard for their flashback costs.

08) Maverick (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
They are an aggro deck with lots of disruptive creatures, the ones to watch out for that will affect you are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, which will make your non creature spells cost 1 more, Scavenging Ooze because it can gain them life & grow, Gaddock Teeg because it can prevent you from casting Fireblast, & Stoneforge Mystic because it can net a Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte. For the most part it will be a race between both sides as to who can get to their lethal first, though the longer the game goes the better chance they have to stabilize, throug their lifegain and large arsenal of creatures, so try to win earlier than later.

09) Ad Nauseam Storm decks (Combo, Light playtesting required)
They are a fast combo deck that will try to finish you off with either lethal storm Trendrils of Agony or an early Empty the Warrens for enough 1/1's to kill you faster than you can kill them. For the most part this is just a race as to who gets to their lethal first, though they are usually faster.

10) High Tide (Combo, Light playtesting required)
They are a slower combo deck that will likely wait until their last turn before your lethal to go off, then cast a complicated set of spells that include card draw, untap effects & High Tides. For the most part this is just a race as to who gets to their lethal first, though they will never go off before their turn 3. One thing to note is if you're getting low on burn spells, having untapped mountains in play when they Time Spiral can still get you to lethal if they don't draw into any counterspells after a resolved Spiral.

11) UR Delver (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
They are an aggro deck with counterspells & burn, running a similar strategy as your own, but also running blue for card draw & counters. For the most part this match will mostly be a race between the 2 decks, though winning faster is optimal since they have the ability to draw more cards, as well as net card advantage with things like Snapcaster Mage.

12) Show and Tell variants (Combo, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
They are a combo deck that will try to cheat a bomb into play by resolving Show and Tell or Sneak Attack to put Griselbrand / Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play and finish you off, Griselbrand has lifelink & the potential to draw 7 cards, though at the cost of 7 life, while Emrakul will make you sacrifice 6 permanents if it gets to swing at you during an attack phase. They will likely be faster than you, however preventing them from having too much life can stop them from drawing any cards off of the Griselbrand.

13) Reanimator (Combo, Light playtesting required)
They are a combo deck that will cheat a bomb into play from the graveyard. Usually Griselbrand Iona, Shield of Emeria as their main targets. If you burn them down fast enough then they might not even be able to cast Reanimate since they lose life off of reanimating, while drawing cards off of Griselbrand are also prevented if their life is low enough. Aside from that, it is just a race as to who gets to their lethal first.

14) Elves (Combo, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
They are a tribal combo/aggro type deck, though more combo related as their key cards will be Glimpse of Nature Natural Order & possibly Green Sun's Zenith into Craterhoof Behemoth or Regal Force. Try to keep them off of too many elves, but at the same time focus on burning them down before they can have a huge turn. They also may run Deathrite Shaman so watch out for the potential life gain from it at +2 per turn. In the end it will be a race while you may be able to slow them down since alot of what they push usually involves getting out a number of elves.

15) Merfolk (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
They are a tribal aggro deck that is backed up by disruption in the form of counterspells, as well as some card draw. They have the potential to put out alot in one turn when the previous they may have only had 1 or 2 merfolk in play, because they can Vial one into play at the end of your turn, then vial another one in on their turn, as well as playing another one, then activating a Mutavault & swinging for huge amounts where as before it was significantly less. Other than that it's mostly just creatures coming down with counterspell/card draw back up that will be a race to burn them out before they can get you for lethal.

16) Goblins (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
They are a tribal aggro deck with a focus on card advantage & the ability to swarm you with tons of goblins the longer the game goes on, though their earlier plays will be less significant if you prevent turn 1 Goblin Lackeys from connecting with you, preventing them from dropping goblins into play early for free. Aside from that it's just a race, burn them out before they get to the point of swinging with enough goblins to kill you.

17) Zombies (Aggro, Light playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
They are an aggro deck that takes advantage of Cabal Therapy Goblin Bombardment & Carrion Feeder with stuff like Gravecrawler Bloodghast & Lingering Souls. They also run disruption in the form of Tidehollow Sculler & Thoughtseize. They also may run Deathrite Shaman which can set back your burn with it's lifegain. In the end it will be a race through their recurring creatures & disruption to kill them before they overwhelm you.

18) Belcher (Combo, Light playtesting recommended)
They are an all in combo deck that will likely go off 1st turn, setting out an army of 1/1's or a Goblin Charbelcher that will hit you for lethal. It is an all out race on both sides, but they will likely be faster than you, & you won't likely even know that they're playing belcher until they go off.

19) 12 post (Ramp/Combo, Light playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
They are a ramp deck with combo elements. Putting out Cloudpost as many times as they can, in order to cast huge Eldrazi creatures like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Kozilek, Butcher of Truth & Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. They will also have access to Primeval Titam & Show and Tell. Since you're playing burn, it is also worth noting they have access to Glimmerpost which can gain them life, buying them another turn to cast a creature & start trying to stabilize. In the end it will be a race to kill them before they get out a huge creature & start swinging at you.

20) Burn The mirror match! (Moderate playtesting recommended)
If a mirror match happens, being on the play -vs- being on the draw can make the difference, whether it's just killing them faster before they can take you out, or just card advantage if you keep going back and forth into a top deck mode, since Flame Rift hits both sides, try to cast it last or as a finisher since you'll be burning yourself, essentially paying 2 to take yourself down for 4 which will help them in their strategy as well as help you, but you're paying the mana and they are not. Also try to get creatures out as much as you can if you're running them, posing as many threats as you can to put them on the defensive

Justin
03-27-2013, 11:02 AM
I'll add a few things about playing Burn.

1) When playing Burn, you don't always want to aim every spell at the opponent's dome. There are certain creatures that you will want to kill, especially if it's turn one and you are on the draw. A turn one Goblin Lackey, for example, is something that you will usually want to get off the board. You also want to kill early creatures from aggressive decks that can outrace you, including the mirror-match, UR Burn, and WR Sligh. If an opponent drops an early Goblin Guide, Delver of Secrets, Grim Lavamancer, or Steppe Lynx, you will need to kill those creature. You also need to be prepared to take out creatures that can gain life against you, such as Deathrite Shaman. Sometimes you have no choice but to throw a Fireblast at a Germ token with Batterskull. So playing this deck is not just about goldfishing to do 20 damage to the opponents dome. You need to realize when to adjust your strategy and interact with your opponent's board.

2) On the question of which bolt spells to cast first, I usually favor Rift Bolt. The reason is that you have to wait a turn to cast it for R, so it's best to cast them early. When your strategy is to do 20 damage ASAP, I would value the one-drops in this order: Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lighting, and Lighting Bolt. When you are concerned about removing your opponent's creatures this might change to: Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lightning Bolt.

3) I would argue that Grim Lavamancer and Fetchlands are optional and not a staple of four in Burn. Lavamancer is great at killing small creatures, but he slows Burn down, especially if your opponent plays spell that can exile cards in your graveyard and take away Lavamaner's "food."

4) Keldon Marauders is more common that you give it credit for. It's potentially five damage for two mana and is a strong option for decks that don't run Lavamancer.

5) Hellspark Elemental was becoming quite common in Burn, before the printing of Deathrite Shaman. It's potentially six damage in one card.

6) I agree that Flame Rift and Sulfuric Vortex are staples, but I don't think that it is mandatory to run four of each. I would say that 2-4 is more appropriate. The "core" cards that require a mandatory four are: Goblin Guide, the four "bolt" spells, Fireblast, and Price of Progress.

tianyuan2k4
03-28-2013, 07:09 PM
Thank for creating this primer feline. The new primer is great.

I am really interested in the match ups. Needless to say it's much easier to goldfish than playing an actual match with Burn. Knowing what options Burn have in different match ups is really important. Perhaps you could add a SB Tech/Meta Call section in the match ups. This would give every Burn enthusiast a better idea of the options and potential tricks the deck has.

DragoFireheart
03-28-2013, 08:39 PM
Here is some super secret tech:


Pyromancer's Swath
Ensnaring Bridge
Flame Jab


Swath gives you more damage for all burn spells. Bridge keeps nasty creatures at bay. Jab makes your mountains into burn spells.

Swath + jab = every spell is at least a lightning bolt.

Swath + Bridge = Always have empty hand.

Swaths stack.


I know how janky it is, but it might be an option if we want to go creatureless.

JanoschEausH
03-29-2013, 05:22 AM
Awesome primer! So much information!

wortwelt
03-29-2013, 10:06 AM
In Testing, we found Sulfuric Vortex as a 4of Maindeck quite convenient if SneakShow goes for the Show and Tell. On the other hand, Sneak Attack appears to be the preferred path for the deck against Burn.

Is Runeflare Trap a (SB) consideration against Griselbrand?

EdsonDettoni
03-31-2013, 08:06 PM
Hi you all. Thanks for the Primer @feline. (My apologies too, my english it is not the best).

I would like to add some things that i have learned about Burn:

a. Concept. Three elements define what burn is: (1) Low Cost (near to 1 average casting cost), (2) Efficiency (Core Spells are 3 damage for 1 mana), and (3) Consistency, in (i) mana base and (ii) Aggro concepts like "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage".
For those "Aggro concepts" read http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1317-squandered-resources-burn-and-budget-legacy.html

b. Core Spells. Like @Justin said, nowadays there is a core for Burn: 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress.
That is because they have: low cost (1 average casting cost, considering Fireblast as 0), (2) guaranteed damage, no lag and have VCA (except for Price of Progress on VCA), and (3) efficiency (are 3 damage for 1 mana; Fireblast is better than that, and Goblin Guide can do more than 2 and provide us information).

c. Average casting cost near to 1. Succesfull Burn lists are between 1,26 and 1,46.

d. Recurring damage. Lists usually need at least 2 cards with recurring damage, for when they turn into top deck mode. Options are: (1) in "guaranteed damage": Sulfuric Vortex and Hellspark Elemental, and (2) non guaranteed damage: Grim Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny and Pyrostatic Pillar.

d. Reduced personal options. With 28 core spells, 4 meta choices and 17 minimun of lands, that left 11 slots for the player to choose their own strategy. 2 of them shold be recurring damage and 3 could be more lands, which left in fact often 8 slots.

e. Strategy lines. (1) Damage Race Burn. You can get this reducing as much as you can your average casting cost, and focusing in the "guaranteed damage" and "no lag damage"; (2) Control-proof Burn [My favorite]. One can get this focusing in "Virtual Card Advantage", recurring damage, preventing your opponents gain life, and not damaging yourself (because you are a bit more slow than other agresive decks, so you can't burn yourself). (3) Colored Burn: with all the proper consistencies of burn (because Bump in the Night and Boros Charm), except the mana base, and getting better options for the sideboard.


e 1. Example of a Damage Race Burn:
Average casting cost 1,17

9 Mountain

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa

4 Vexing Devil
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Keldon Marauders

4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

4 Flame Rift


e.2. Example of a Control-proof Burn
Average casting cost 1,54

19 Mountain

2 Barbarian Ring

3 Hellspark Elemental

4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

4 Skullcrack
4 Sulfuric Vortex


e.3. Finally, an example of a Colored Burn:
Average casting cost 1,15

2 Mountain
3 Plateau
3 Badlands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

4 Bump in the Night

4 Price of Progress/ Hellspark Elemental

4 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack

Bye

EdsonDettoni
04-08-2013, 10:19 AM
In Testing, we found Sulfuric Vortex as a 4of Maindeck quite convenient if SneakShow goes for the Show and Tell. On the other hand, Sneak Attack appears to be the preferred path for the deck against Burn.

Is Runeflare Trap a (SB) consideration against Griselbrand?

Sulfuric Vortex is great, but i've found that maybe 3cc it is too much for burn, considering it is only gun is to burn fast. Like in this list:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65739




3) Card choices:

3a) Maindeck: (most common in recent trends in bold)

Instant:
Thunderous Wrath uncommon


Here is an interesting list with Thunderous Wrath:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10172&iddeck=74107

ahg113
04-11-2013, 03:15 PM
Hey all,

So I was looking through my collection and I had a decent number of the cards so I decided to make a Burn deck. Going through it I came across Runeflare Trap. I'm thinking this is a good SB card against blue or storm combo type decks. Both are inclined to draw a lot of cards, and to activate the person only needs to draw two more cards if on their turn, or if they brainstorm on ours.

I haven't put everything together yet, but I think it's a decent inclusion as a sb card, in the list I was mulling over, I have this over a REB/Pyroblast 3 spot.

Justin
04-12-2013, 11:05 AM
Hey all,

So I was looking through my collection and I had a decent number of the cards so I decided to make a Burn deck. Going through it I came across Runeflare Trap. I'm thinking this is a good SB card against blue or storm combo type decks. Both are inclined to draw a lot of cards, and to activate the person only needs to draw two more cards if on their turn, or if they brainstorm on ours.

I haven't put everything together yet, but I think it's a decent inclusion as a sb card, in the list I was mulling over, I have this over a REB/Pyroblast 3 spot.

I haven't tested it, but I have my doubts about Runeflare trap. I wouldn't board it in against a deck just because it pays Brainstorm. Yes, it sounds awesome if you can resolve it after they've cast a brainstorm, but more often than not it seems like it will be a dead card in your hand. You have to leave a red mana open for it, meaning that you are missing opportunities to cast other (non-instant) spells just to zing them on a Brainstorm that they may or may not have or want to cast. Plus, once the opponent has knowledge that you run Runeflare trap, he will play around it. The trap can hit more spells against storm deck, but I wonder if it's application is too narrow to be a sideboard card. Ad Nauseam actually doesn't draw cards. It just reveals them and puts them into the hand, so the trap isn't good against it. Another problem with trap is that you will almost never hardcast it. If it cost four to hardcast, rather than six, I would give it stronger consideration.

feline
04-12-2013, 12:37 PM
I would not recommend Runeflare Trap as it's just not as optimal a burn spell compared to what is out there when looking at the most recent lists especially.

EdsonDettoni
04-13-2013, 05:14 PM
Hi, you all,

A. I also agree Runeflare Trap it is not a good choice.

***


B. Returning to Burn, it seems to be a fundamental choice in the archetype: To run [Cards]Grim Lavamancer, or not.

(i) The pros for Lavamancer are: (1) recurring damage, and (2) can kill small creatures easily.
(ii) The cons are: (1) you need to feed him with fetchlands, which decrease consistency, (2) hurting you, and (3) it is not guaranteed damage nor no-lag-damage.

If you wanna rum Grim Lavamancer, I think the best List it is Something like the Ali Aintrazi list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49536

I dont like to play the Lavamancer, because against an aggro list, fetchland damage make easy to kill you; and against a control or combo deck, it is too slow, because the lag.


C. This is the my list, and I like it a lot:

19 Mountain

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
3 Hellspark Elemental
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Skullcrack
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Shattering Spree
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm


Card Choices:

In maindeck,
1. The obvious Burn Core: 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress
2. Personal Options:
(a) 4 Vexing Devil: The problem of letting choose to your opponent has been discused widely. Also if opponent choose creature, it is no guaranteed damage, nor no-lag damage. But has a real good pro, and is that whichever be the opponent choice, it is a 1cc. If Vexing Devil is in your opening hand, opponent will choose damage, wich is very efective and there is no replace for that; and if is a top deck, opponent will choose creature, wich it is not bad; no more than a blocker or other 1cc card.
(b) 3 Hellspark Elemental: Recurring damage and surprising haste speed, and 3 (or 6) Guaranteed Damage make him a very good choice. Better than Keldon Marauders, wich deals only 2 damage of that kind. Also, the deck needs exactly 19 mana slots, so that the reason for 3 of them.
(c) 4 Skullcrack: It is very important ensure your damage, so you need to ad slots for this card or Skullcrack. But 3cc card it is too slow sometimes for burn, and you will need 20-21 mana slots, wich make you worse at topdeck. Also, the instant speed is very important to put presure on your opponent.
(d) 2 Pyrostatic Pillar: It has recurring damage, and prepare you deck for those awful comobo decks, if you have another 4 combo hate on SB.
(e) No self-burn: Flame Rift, no Fetclands, no Barbarian Ring. This gives you more consistency, and an extra turn against aggro decks.

Side Board
(a) Against combo: you will always loose against them so thats why you have 5 graveyard hate, 6 combo from hand hate (4 Mindbreak Trap and 2 Pyrostatic Pillar, and 3 Pyroclasm to beat those anoying Elves.
(b) 3 Pyroclasm, are very sweet against Stoneblade, Gobblins, Elves, etc.
***

D. An interesting card that deserves discussion, is Sudden Shock.

EdsonDettoni
04-15-2013, 10:52 PM
This is starting to be one sided, moreover the Boros Burn thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25568-Boros-Burn

But, I have a questión, and I'll thank if you can answer it: Why people dont use Spark Elemental (not Hellspark), instead Vexing devil? Since Spark Elemental is like a another bolt?

blindspotxxx
04-15-2013, 11:03 PM
Great primer Feline :)

I would love for Burn to make a comeback but the meta right now is combo centric. Maybe when fair decks rise again :laugh:

JPettie
04-24-2013, 12:27 PM
Has anyone considered running Genju of the Spires?

I am considering running it as a trick or just consistent repeating damage, also could be a pretty good blocker.

Also considering bringing back the Fork for interesting interactions and ways to stop blue decks maindeck.

My deck for reference:


4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

2 Genju of the Spires
3 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

EdsonDettoni
04-24-2013, 08:41 PM
Has anyone considered running Genju of the Spires?

I am considering running it as a trick or just consistent repeating damage, also could be a pretty good blocker.

Also considering bringing back the Fork for interesting interactions and ways to stop blue decks maindeck.


I have tried Genju of the Spires. And I have won games with it. But it is too slow, you need 4 mountains to activate it in the same turn you cast it; and likely the only thing you need is another bolt. Maybe as SB, but I dont know man. I prefered Hellspark Elemental.

Fork is bad. Test it.

feline
04-25-2013, 03:25 AM
Vexing Devil keeps getting skipped because while it does do 4 damage when it does go off, when it comes into play instead, it's usuallly going to do 0 damage, so it has a drawback, and when that drawback happens, it is a huge one!

syfilisx
04-25-2013, 04:08 AM
Vexing Devil keeps getting skipped because while it does do 4 damage when it does go off, when it comes into play instead, it's usuallly going to do 0 damage, so it has a drawback, and when that drawback happens, it is a huge one!

Also one very valid drawback with Vexing Devil is that Deathrite shaman can easily get 2 life back from it. I have heard from few of my burn playing mates, that's the reason they have started cutting Keldon Marauders too.

feline
04-25-2013, 04:41 AM
It's also one reason Sulfuric Vortex has become only more popular. Literally all the recent successful burn lists are 8 non land permanents, & the rest burn spells (aside from lands themselves), those 2 being the Vortex, & Goblin Guide.

EdsonDettoni
04-26-2013, 12:20 AM
Hi, you all,

I'd like to discuss certain maindeck cards that i've found very good in testing:

(i) 1 Barbarian Ring, whatever be your list, with Grim Lavamancer or not, it is always useful, versatile, and non-counterable.

(ii) 3 Grim Lavamancer, not 4. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Grim Lavamancer in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no cemetery to feed them. One of them become useless.

(iii) 3 Fireblast, not 4. This maybe sound weird or just silly. Besides the same reason I said about Grim Lavamancer above, sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. 3 have been worked to me.

(iv) Searing Blaze. What a card. I was skeptic about this card until I've tested it. Removal and Guaranteed Damage at the same time, 6 damage for two. To use it properly, I run 12 fetchlands. There is no reason to place this card in Side Board. This applies too for the 4 Flamebreak in Side Board.

(v) 1 or 2 Dangerous Wager. I'm not convinced, but sometimes this give you the extra gas to win; and most important, it is not just card advantage in exchange of tempo. It allows you to draw again another good card like 4 Price of Progress instead a Incinerate, for example.

***

For reference, now I'm playing something like this:

7 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Searing Blaze
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Dangerous Wager

SB
4 Flamebreak
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Shattering Spree
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flamebreak

JPettie
04-26-2013, 10:12 AM
Hi, you all,

I'd like to discuss certain maindeck cards that i've found very good in testing:

(i) 1 Barbarian Ring, whatever be your list, with Grim Lavamancer or not, it is always useful, versatile, and non-counterable.

(ii) 3 Grim Lavamancer, not 4. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Grim Lavamancer in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no cemetery to feed them. One of them become useless.

(iii) 3 Fireblast, not 4. This maybe sound weird or just silly. Besides the same reason I said about Grim Lavamancer above, sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. 3 have been worked to me.

(iv) Searing Blaze. What a card. I was skeptic about this card until I've tested it. Removal and Guaranteed Damage at the same time, 6 damage for two. To use it properly, I run 12 fetchlands. There is no reason to place this card in Side Board. This applies too for the 4 Flamebreak in Side Board.

(v) 1 or 2 Dangerous Wager. I'm not convinced, but sometimes this give you the extra gas to win; and most important, it is not just card advantage in exchange of tempo. It allows you to draw again another good card like 4 Price of Progress instead a Incinerate, for example.

***

For reference, now I'm playing something like this:

7 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Searing Blaze
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Dangerous Wager

SB
4 Flamebreak
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Shattering Spree
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flamebreak

I am sceptical of (i), but it is always worth testing anything that might be good. I appreciate (ii) and I've found that 3 has never been an issue for me, as for 4 being a situation I am feeling like I have too many with. in terms of (iii), I run 4 because I run 8 mountains and find that if I have to, I will eventually cast all 4 in a game. If I were to run the Barbarian Ring, I would most likely go to 3 Fireblast but I feel like running Barbarian Ring with Grim Lavamancer just can't be consistent, although most people do try to get rid of your Grim Lavamancer as fast as possible. I would rather run other damage spells or something that has reach over Dangerous Wager just because of its awkward situations, for example having 2 in your hand forcing your first 7 to be a mulligan, and then casting it for 2 only to get a spell you can't cast like Price of Progress if you are on 3 mountains.

Valtrix
04-27-2013, 02:06 AM
Could people give me some understanding about why Needle Drop is never used in burn lists? I understand the 1 damage for 1 mana might seem underwhelming even with the cantrip. However, I'd like to compare needle drop to Flame Rift, which is usually considered pretty good and even borderline staple for many lists. Flame rift is 4 damage for 2 mana, and needle drop really is turning any of your 1cc 3 damage spells into a (one-sided) flame rift. From this point of view the card seems very acceptable to me.

Justin
04-27-2013, 01:17 PM
I follow your logic, but Flame Rift is one card and is not a dead card unless you are losing the damage race. The problem with Needle Drop is that it will be a dead card much more often because it requires a combo with another burn spell. Unlike Flame Rift, Needle Drop cannot win the game for you when you are in topdeck mode with an empty hand. Many Burn games involve emptying your hand and getting into topdeck mode with the opponent at 4 life or less. That's why I'm not thrilled with playing spells that cannot win you the game immediately with a top deck. That's why I don't like Vexing Devil, either.

iamajellydonut
04-29-2013, 02:45 PM
I follow your logic, but Flame Rift is one card and is not a dead card unless you are losing the damage race. The problem with Needle Drop is that it will be a dead card much more often because it requires a combo with another burn spell. Unlike Flame Rift, Needle Drop cannot win the game for you when you are in topdeck mode with an empty hand.

While a valid reason, it's not wholly the reason to not play Needle Drop.

Not dealing immediate damage is not a desirable quality, true, but it isn't a debilitating factor. Rift Bolt pops the turn after, Keldon Marauders takes two turns to get off two damage, Goblin Guide in general. The infinitely larger problem with Needle Drop is that it draws you a card. That may seem like a nifty factor, but it's actually far from good. If Needle Drop tutored you a 1cc 3 damage burn spell, it'd be fantastic and effectively 4 damage for 2 mana. Alas, it does not. Sure, it may draw into one, but it also stands too good of a chance of drawing you a Mountain instead.

EdsonDettoni
04-30-2013, 01:59 AM
I am sceptical of (i), but it is always worth testing anything that might be good. I appreciate (ii) and I've found that 3 has never been an issue for me, as for 4 being a situation I am feeling like I have too many with. in terms of (iii), I run 4 because I run 8 mountains and find that if I have to, I will eventually cast all 4 in a game. If I were to run the Barbarian Ring, I would most likely go to 3 Fireblast but I feel like running Barbarian Ring with Grim Lavamancer just can't be consistent, although most people do try to get rid of your Grim Lavamancer as fast as possible. I would rather run other damage spells or something that has reach over Dangerous Wager just because of its awkward situations, for example having 2 in your hand forcing your first 7 to be a mulligan, and then casting it for 2 only to get a spell you can't cast like Price of Progress if you are on 3 mountains.

Thanks for answer, @JPettie,

- On "(i) 1 Barbarian Ring", I really recommend to test it. On consistency with Grim Lavamancer, it does not hurt you so much when you can't use it after feeding Lavamancer; and that does not happen often.

- About "(ii) 3 Grim Lavamancer, not 4", I appreciate your feedback. 3 is still working to me.

- Relating to "(iii) 3 Fireblast, not 4", Now I run 8 mountains (21 total lands), but I'm still prefer to run 3 instead 4. What I'm trying to do it is to reduce all possible inconsistencies, that do not worth the risk. Draw a second Fireblast in the initial hand, it is awkward; and by the time I can cast 3 of it, I'll be dead. But I recognize this is a hard choice. So I'm still testing, and so far by now, it is still working.

- You where absolutely right on "(v) 1 or 2 Dangerous Wager". To run 2 it is obviously inconsistent, but to run 1 wasn't good neither. Because similar reasons in Needle Drop discussion.

- On (iv) Searing Blaze, I have to say something additional. Since you MUST target a player AND a creature, it is not a good choice if your meta is full of combo without creatures, I guess.

- I must add (vi) that in testing where far better to play 21 total lands (8 Mountain and 1 Barbarian Ring), instead 20. To have to play with only one mountain it is fatal.


***


In my list, now I have 2 slots available. 2 Hellspark Elemental are in there now. I will appreciate other suggestions. I'm considering 2 Magma Jet, Incinerate, or Flame Rift.

SBGpinas
04-30-2013, 02:19 AM
Could people give me some understanding about why Needle Drop is never used in burn lists? I understand the 1 damage for 1 mana might seem underwhelming even with the cantrip. However, I'd like to compare needle drop to Flame Rift, which is usually considered pretty good and even borderline staple for many lists. Flame rift is 4 damage for 2 mana, and needle drop really is turning any of your 1cc 3 damage spells into a (one-sided) flame rift. From this point of view the card seems very acceptable to me.

Because Needle Drop is bad for 2 reasons:

1. It never does damage on it's own. It relies on your other spells for it to do any damage, making it a terrible top deck.
2. Cantrips, whether free or not, are bad in general for Burn. If free Cantrips like Gitaxian Probe are bad, what more a Cantrip that isn't free?

The reason why Cantrips are bad in Burn is that for a linear deck like Burn, Threat Density (i.e. the ratio of threats to the total number of cards in the deck) is important. In order to maintain Threat Density, Lands will need to be cut in order to make room for Cantrips. If you cut lands, you will find you mulligan more often since ideally you would want at least 2 lands in your opening 7. Having to mulligan more often basically negates the perceived deck-thinning and "improved" card draw quality that Cantrips are supposed to provide.

karaxu
04-30-2013, 08:48 AM
Could people give me some understanding about why Needle Drop is never used in burn lists? I understand the 1 damage for 1 mana might seem underwhelming even with the cantrip. However, I'd like to compare needle drop to Flame Rift, which is usually considered pretty good and even borderline staple for many lists. Flame rift is 4 damage for 2 mana, and needle drop really is turning any of your 1cc 3 damage spells into a (one-sided) flame rift. From this point of view the card seems very acceptable to me.

Just a little flaw in your logic, you are assuming that needle drop would draw a 3 (1cc) damage burn always.

The randomness of what you would draw is not a risk RDW can take as this deck needs to deal 20 fast!

ahg113
04-30-2013, 03:16 PM
Been reading the primer, and gold fishing on Cockatrice, turn 5/6 kill (always assume PoP is 4 damage). Would appreciate some feedback on this list. I've been inclined to go the straight mountain, no fetches (no grim), no grim (lag), no vexing devil (opponent's choice) due to the comments made here. I'm not in love with this, as I feel the number of permanents are off slightly (remember reading that 12 is a good number). Any help would be appreciated. My meta is full of Storm-combo, UW Miracles, RUG, Sneak'n'Show, with a modest but smaller number of Maverick, Jund, BUG, Esper-Blade, almost never Goblins, Elves, Enchantress, Lands, Fish.

MD
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
17 Mountain

Side-Board
2 REB
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Mindbreak Trap

ahg113
04-30-2013, 03:28 PM
Random missive about deck building:
Is there a place for Blood Moon in the 75?

Is there a place for Simian Spirit Guide in the 75?

iamajellydonut
04-30-2013, 03:38 PM
Random missive about deck building:
Is there a place for Blood Moon in the 75?

Is there a place for Simian Spirit Guide in the 75?

Blood Moon is a card that can singlehandedly win games against the right decks. Unfortunately, it doesn't deal damage, it tops out the curve, sucks in multiples, and is useless mid-late game. If you're ok with the above, which many are, tossing 1x in the sideboard can be one of the most clutch things you've ever done.

Simian Spirit Guide, Moxen, etc, are the most useless things in Burn. Having that turn 3/4 win is awesome, but realistically it doesn't matter how fast you win so long as you do. Simian Spirit Guide and all its acceleration brethren deny you of cards and ultimately slow the deck down as you have less damage done.

Barbed Blightning
04-30-2013, 04:55 PM
Blood Moon is a card that can singlehandedly win games against the right decks. Unfortunately, it doesn't deal damage, it tops out the curve, sucks in multiples, and is useless mid-late game. If you're ok with the above, which many are, tossing 1x in the sideboard can be one of the most clutch things you've ever done.

Simian Spirit Guide, Moxen, etc, are the most useless things in Burn. Having that turn 3/4 win is awesome, but realistically it doesn't matter how fast you win so long as you do. Simian Spirit Guide and all its acceleration brethren deny you of cards and ultimately slow the deck down as you have less damage done.

It's also worth stating that most decks that run basics fetch them first vs burn because of pop anyway. Those that don't usually counter/decay it.

TheArchitect
04-30-2013, 05:51 PM
Random missive about deck building:
Is there a place for Blood Moon in the 75?

Is there a place for Simian Spirit Guide in the 75?


There's no room or reason to run either in burn. You just want consistent damage. Ramp and mana denial dont help the deck win more.

Move the pyrostatic pillars to the sideboard. You only really want them against combo.

You definitely do NOT want Pyrokinesis. Its worse than shock since you have to exile a red card which is going to be doing at least 2 damage. You should not have any cards worth exiling to it in your deck.

You are not making good use of your land base. You could either have 2 barbarian rings, or 4 grim lavamancers and 8-12 fetchlands. I'd suggest the lavamancer personally. He single-handedly beats entire archtypes (tribal), and is great against any DRS deck, and usually gets you the most damage per card over the course of the game. Also, 18-20 lands is the right number. Especially if you are running maindeck vortexes.

Sulfuric vortex is really really good, but 3 is probably a better a number, at least maindeck. If you dont have to cut anything to fix your mana base and stuff, then leave 4, but I would probably go down to 3.

ahg113
04-30-2013, 06:14 PM
@TheArchitect- Thanks for your advice. If you'd humor me and forgo the fetches and Grims for the moment- I move the Pillars to the SB, dropping 2 Psychokinesis, and drop one Sulfuric Vortex from the MD, that leaves me with 4 slots to fill. 2 if I include 2 Barbarian Rings. Go to a play set of rings? Or which two cards should fill the gap?

iamajellydonut
04-30-2013, 06:26 PM
@TheArchitect- Thanks for your advice. If you'd humor me and forgo the fetches and Grims for the moment- I move the Pillars to the SB, dropping 2 Psychokinesis, and drop one Sulfuric Vortex from the MD, that leaves me with 4 slots to fill. 2 if I include 2 Barbarian Rings. Go to a play set of rings? Or which two cards should fill the gap?

+1-2xLand and Keldon Marauders and/or Volcanic Fallout/Flamebreak?

ahg113
04-30-2013, 06:29 PM
+1-2xLand and Keldon Marauders and/or Volcanic Fallout/Flamebreak?

Obv. answer is usually correct answer (going with +2 v. fallout.) Thanks @iamajellydonut.

P.S.- what kind of jelly? Or is that some sicko sex thing???

JPettie
05-01-2013, 01:20 AM
Been reading the primer, and gold fishing on Cockatrice, turn 5/6 kill (always assume PoP is 4 damage). Would appreciate some feedback on this list. I've been inclined to go the straight mountain, no fetches (no grim), no grim (lag), no vexing devil (opponent's choice) due to the comments made here. I'm not in love with this, as I feel the number of permanents are off slightly (remember reading that 12 is a good number). Any help would be appreciated. My meta is full of Storm-combo, UW Miracles, RUG, Sneak'n'Show, with a modest but smaller number of Maverick, Jund, BUG, Esper-Blade, almost never Goblins, Elves, Enchantress, Lands, Fish.

MD
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
17 Mountain

Side-Board
2 REB
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Mindbreak Trap

Considering your meta as you said it is the most I can work with and I will attempt to give reasoning for everything I suggest as follows.

I will evaluate your concerns in steps of each rampant deck in your meta that you have described.

"Storm-combo"

This matchup is always dire in my opinion, you have to hope to do enough damage to make it hard for them to cast Ad Nauseam or have the Mindbreak Trap and hope they don't have the silence as an answer. They are simply quicker than you most times. I can see reason for your 3 main-board Pyrostatic Pillars, but they will be dead in a lot of match-ups where you could have cast a more relevant spell. Usually a storm deck can go off turn 1 and if you don't have the Mindbreak Trap because you kept a hand with Pyrostatic Pillar then you would be dead in the water. Storm has many variants and I would consider which Storm is local to your meta, if it is Belcher, than I would consider Reroute as a sideboard option, along with Ingot Chewer as a way to stop them if they get risky and play the Belcher a turn before they can activate it. I would consider the amount of hate you put into your deck versus 1 deck type if you want to still not be losing to other archetypes.

"UW Miracles"

The match-up here is determined by what you mean by the deck name, and I would assume it is some sort of counter-top archetype, but I could be wrong. In the terms of it being what I assume it is, I would suggest some number of Vexing Shusher because a top with counterbalance can be very hard to beat as a Burn deck. I would also consider disrupting their Sensei's Divining Tops with Ingot Chewer because it is uncounter-able. Running a card like Ensnaring Bridge if their way of winning is a miracle angel variant can be very hard for them to deal with other than their usual 1 of Detention Sphere. With Vexing Shushers the match-up can often be much more favorable for you because they are usually a slower deck that relies on countering everything you do, without that plan, they lose the race to your combo deck.

"RUG"

I would assume this match-up is why you are running a lot of board wipers, especially uncounter-able ones at that, and why there are a lot of blasts in your sideboard. I don't mind this and I think it could be the correct way to deal with the match-up, playing around their counters and not running fetches making their Stifles dead. I don't have much advice on this match-up and I think you are correct in your choices.

"Sneak'n'Show"

This match-up is also very hard to deal with, referencing the storm match-up. I would suggest some number of Ensnaring Bridge or something like Angel of Despair to deal with their Show and Tells, along with some number of Pithing Needle to stop their Sneak Attack. Pithing Needle can also be very good against a lot of miscellaneous cards in Legacy and a decent 2 of in a sideboard. I play test against a Sneak'n'Show deck myself with Burn and I find their plan against Burn is to take out Show and Tell and put in Through the Breach if they know you are running Ensnaring Bridge. The match-up is not an easy one but if you can resolve a Ensnaring Bridge it can be very hard for them to win. I am still not sure if 4 of Sulfuric Vortex is the right number, I currently run 3 and I find that when they lay down a Griselbrand and you have Sulfuric Vortex they just simply can't draw cards or they will lose to a Fireblast. I find Sulfuric Vortex to also be very good in this match-up.

Other "modest" amounts of decks

I find Burn has a good match-up against a lot of the ones you have mentioned and you can choose whether to include other cards you notice that might be good against those decks, but usually if you can clear their creatures from the board or resolve an Ensnaring Bridge or Sulfuric Vortex, it can be very hard for them to win. Ingot Chewer is also especially good against cards like Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte.

Concerning suggestions given

I would only consider fetches and Grim Lavamancer if your meta is heavy on creature based decks or tribal decks where it would be very efficient to run and also run some number of Searing Blaze, but with the meta you described, and considering RUG being around, I like the idea of running just basic mountains and speed to keep your deck well rounded against all the quicker decks like storm and not have dead draws or lose a Mountain to Stifle. Barbarian Ring can definitely win games and is good sometimes, but I find it pretty hard to run when it loses to Stifle and Wasteland in a deck that wants to be as efficient as possible and take advantage of that fact by running just basics and making your opponents cards dead. It can be especially contradictory to the strategy of Burn when you reach the awkward moment when you can't cast your first or second Fireblast off it and lose a game because of it. I can definitely see reason for playing it but I like to be very precise and safe when creating a competitive deck-list.

I will leave you with a suggestive deck-list according to your concerns and good luck playing Burn!

Mainboard:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental

4 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt

20 Mountain


Sideboard:

4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

ThoSha
05-01-2013, 07:38 AM
Anyone tried Faithless Looting in burn? Seems useful with Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elementals.

JPettie
05-01-2013, 09:03 AM
Anyone tried Faithless Looting in burn? Seems useful with Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elementals.

Other than feeding Grim and maybe getting a lucky Hellspark off it and only having 1 activation of it available, it just seems like a bad draw when you get to turn 6 and all you need is a burn spell to kill them, especially when you are in top deck mode and can't keep any of the cards you draw off it.

iamajellydonut
05-01-2013, 05:34 PM
Anyone tried Faithless Looting in burn? Seems useful with Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elementals.

It's a really, really, really bad idea.

1) It's a disgusting loss of tempo.
2) It can often turn into outright card disadvantage.
3) Especially since you'll need to pitch land to it, you'll likely never be able to pay its flashback cost.
4) It's literally the worst topdeck ever. Ever.
5) If you need cards so desperately for Grim Lavamancer, you're probably already doing it wrong.
6) Hellspark? Really?

If you need to fill this slot or this need, there's nothing that Faithless Looting does that Magma Jets doesn't already do better.

EdsonDettoni
05-03-2013, 12:25 AM
Because Needle Drop is bad for 2 reasons:

1. It never does damage on it's own. It relies on your other spells for it to do any damage, making it a terrible top deck.
2. Cantrips, whether free or not, are bad in general for Burn. If free Cantrips like Gitaxian Probe are bad, what more a Cantrip that isn't free?

The reason why Cantrips are bad in Burn is that for a linear deck like Burn, Threat Density (i.e. the ratio of threats to the total number of cards in the deck) is important. In order to maintain Threat Density, Lands will need to be cut in order to make room for Cantrips. If you cut lands, you will find you mulligan more often since ideally you would want at least 2 lands in your opening 7. Having to mulligan more often basically negates the perceived deck-thinning and "improved" card draw quality that Cantrips are supposed to provide.

What you say about cantrips it is true. "Threat Density" it is key to consistency, and therefore, to win in a Burn Deck.

But now I'm testing Gitaxian Probe, and it surprise me. It allows you to take off cards that you don't wanna to use, like Incinerate; and more important, see the hand of your opponent, showing you how to play, which is crucial against RUG, BUG, and Death and Taxes. For reference, I run now 20 lands (7 mountain, 12 Fetchland, and 1 Barbarian Ring), and it's working very smoth.


Considering your meta as you said it is the most I can work with and I will attempt to give reasoning for everything I suggest as follows.

I will evaluate your concerns in steps of each rampant deck in your meta that you have described.

"Storm-combo"

This matchup is always dire in my opinion, you have to hope to do enough damage to make it hard for them to cast Ad Nauseam or have the Mindbreak Trap and hope they don't have the silence as an answer. They are simply quicker than you most times. I can see reason for your 3 main-board Pyrostatic Pillars, but they will be dead in a lot of match-ups where you could have cast a more relevant spell. Usually a storm deck can go off turn 1 and if you don't have the Mindbreak Trap because you kept a hand with Pyrostatic Pillar then you would be dead in the water. Storm has many variants and I would consider which Storm is local to your meta, if it is Belcher, than I would consider Reroute as a sideboard option, along with Ingot Chewer as a way to stop them if they get risky and play the Belcher a turn before they can activate it. I would consider the amount of hate you put into your deck versus 1 deck type if you want to still not be losing to other archetypes.

"UW Miracles"

The match-up here is determined by what you mean by the deck name, and I would assume it is some sort of counter-top archetype, but I could be wrong. In the terms of it being what I assume it is, I would suggest some number of Vexing Shusher because a top with counterbalance can be very hard to beat as a Burn deck. I would also consider disrupting their Sensei's Divining Tops with Ingot Chewer because it is uncounter-able. Running a card like Ensnaring Bridge if their way of winning is a miracle angel variant can be very hard for them to deal with other than their usual 1 of Detention Sphere. With Vexing Shushers the match-up can often be much more favorable for you because they are usually a slower deck that relies on countering everything you do, without that plan, they lose the race to your combo deck.

"RUG"

I would assume this match-up is why you are running a lot of board wipers, especially uncounter-able ones at that, and why there are a lot of blasts in your sideboard. I don't mind this and I think it could be the correct way to deal with the match-up, playing around their counters and not running fetches making their Stifles dead. I don't have much advice on this match-up and I think you are correct in your choices.

"Sneak'n'Show"

This match-up is also very hard to deal with, referencing the storm match-up. I would suggest some number of Ensnaring Bridge or something like Angel of Despair to deal with their Show and Tells, along with some number of Pithing Needle to stop their Sneak Attack. Pithing Needle can also be very good against a lot of miscellaneous cards in Legacy and a decent 2 of in a sideboard. I play test against a Sneak'n'Show deck myself with Burn and I find their plan against Burn is to take out Show and Tell and put in Through the Breach if they know you are running Ensnaring Bridge. The match-up is not an easy one but if you can resolve a Ensnaring Bridge it can be very hard for them to win. I am still not sure if 4 of Sulfuric Vortex is the right number, I currently run 3 and I find that when they lay down a Griselbrand and you have Sulfuric Vortex they just simply can't draw cards or they will lose to a Fireblast. I find Sulfuric Vortex to also be very good in this match-up.

Other "modest" amounts of decks

I find Burn has a good match-up against a lot of the ones you have mentioned and you can choose whether to include other cards you notice that might be good against those decks, but usually if you can clear their creatures from the board or resolve an Ensnaring Bridge or Sulfuric Vortex, it can be very hard for them to win. Ingot Chewer is also especially good against cards like Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte.

Concerning suggestions given

I would only consider fetches and Grim Lavamancer if your meta is heavy on creature based decks or tribal decks where it would be very efficient to run and also run some number of Searing Blaze, but with the meta you described, and considering RUG being around, I like the idea of running just basic mountains and speed to keep your deck well rounded against all the quicker decks like storm and not have dead draws or lose a Mountain to Stifle. Barbarian Ring can definitely win games and is good sometimes, but I find it pretty hard to run when it loses to Stifle and Wasteland in a deck that wants to be as efficient as possible and take advantage of that fact by running just basics and making your opponents cards dead. It can be especially contradictory to the strategy of Burn when you reach the awkward moment when you can't cast your first or second Fireblast off it and lose a game because of it. I can definitely see reason for playing it but I like to be very precise and safe when creating a competitive deck-list.

I will leave you with a suggestive deck-list according to your concerns and good luck playing Burn!

Mainboard:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental

4 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt

20 Mountain


Sideboard:

4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle


Nice recomendations. You are like Good Greg Guy.

iamajellydonut
05-03-2013, 12:32 AM
It allows you to take off cards that you don't wanna to use, like Incinerate

If this is an issue, you're doing it wrong.

SBGpinas
05-03-2013, 12:47 AM
If this is an issue, you're doing it wrong.

Gonna have to agree with this one.

There is no reason to be running sub-optimal Burn spells like Incinerate. Beyond the 16 3-for-1 burn spells, PoP, Fireblast, 4 GG and 4 GLM, here are some cards that are way better than Incinerate:

1. Flame Rift - Deals 4 damage. Sucks vs. Aggro, but it's usually a non-issue if you play your cards right
2. Sulfuric Vortex - A great win-con when it resolves against control. Shuts down life-gain.
3. Skullcrack - Same damage-to-mana ratio as Incincerate, but Shuts down life-gain and damage prevention effects (like COP:Red, Energy Field, Sphere of Law, etc.)
4. Keldon Marauders - 5 potential damage for 2 mana, can trade with opposing weenies
5. Hellspark Elemental - Hellbent
6. Searing Blaze - In a fair-deck meta, this is just awesome. Forces you to run fetchlands for optimal use though

Neither one of the options I have enumerated are bad enough to cut for Cantrip Spells.

If you find you are still running bad cards in Burn, then you will really need to re-evaluate if Burn is the right deck for you.

EdsonDettoni
05-07-2013, 08:17 PM
If this is an issue, you're doing it wrong.


Gonna have to agree with this one.

There is no reason to be running sub-optimal Burn spells like Incinerate. Beyond the 16 3-for-1 burn spells, PoP, Fireblast, 4 GG and 4 GLM, here are some cards that are way better than Incinerate:

1. Flame Rift - Deals 4 damage. Sucks vs. Aggro, but it's usually a non-issue if you play your cards right
2. Sulfuric Vortex - A great win-con when it resolves against control. Shuts down life-gain.
3. Skullcrack - Same damage-to-mana ratio as Incincerate, but Shuts down life-gain and damage prevention effects (like COP:Red, Energy Field, Sphere of Law, etc.)
4. Keldon Marauders - 5 potential damage for 2 mana, can trade with opposing weenies
5. Hellspark Elemental - Hellbent
6. Searing Blaze - In a fair-deck meta, this is just awesome. Forces you to run fetchlands for optimal use though

Neither one of the options I have enumerated are bad enough to cut for Cantrip Spells.

If you find you are still running bad cards in Burn, then you will really need to re-evaluate if Burn is the right deck for you.

You were right about it. "Threat Density" is the real problem. I choose to play Skullcrack. Its the better option in the meta.

This is my list wirth Grim Lavamancer, and I think it is the best I can do for Burn now.


8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

4 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack
3 Sulfuric Vortex

iamajellydonut
05-07-2013, 09:52 PM
4 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack

Honestly, there are far better options for either of these. Searing Blaze is insanely risky in the mainboard. You can't even do neat tricks like targeting your own Goblin Guide. If they don't have a creature, it's a dead card. If you don't have a land, it's a dead card.

Flame Rift, Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout, Keldon Marauders, and Smash to Smithereens are all infinitely better options in so many ways.

Dice_Box
05-08-2013, 03:50 AM
Going to jump in here for the first time.

Playing my new deck last night showed me something important. With Deathrite Shaman such a cheap, common card these days (by cheap I mean in mana cost) I think Keldon Marauders is not really worth the drop. I mean you're going to deal 2 damage at least but they are going to get that back if you do not answer the Shaman and you're not always going to hit for the 3 on the attack. I think for the time being this slot is better used by another burn spell. Its going to have more impact.

I tired Searing Blaze as well, I will trade them out for Volcanic Fallout as soon as they arrive. Skullcrack I think has promise tho. I mean in a meta that has Jitte, Batterskull and STP (on ones of critters to stay alive) Skullcrack can really do some damage. Not sure what I would cut for it but I do really think it is a good choice if your Meta suits it.

EdsonDettoni
05-09-2013, 01:54 AM
Honestly, there are far better options for either of these. Searing Blaze is insanely risky in the mainboard. You can't even do neat tricks like targeting your own Goblin Guide. If they don't have a creature, it's a dead card. If you don't have a land, it's a dead card.

Flame Rift, Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout, Keldon Marauders, and Smash to Smithereens are all infinitely better options in so many ways.


Going to jump in here for the first time.

Playing my new deck last night showed me something important. With Deathrite Shaman such a cheap, common card these days (by cheap I mean in mana cost) I think Keldon Marauders is not really worth the drop. I mean you're going to deal 2 damage at least but they are going to get that back if you do not answer the Shaman and you're not always going to hit for the 3 on the attack. I think for the time being this slot is better used by another burn spell. Its going to have more impact.

I tired Searing Blaze as well, I will trade them out for Volcanic Fallout as soon as they arrive. Skullcrack I think has promise tho. I mean in a meta that has Jitte, Batterskull and STP (on ones of critters to stay alive) Skullcrack can really do some damage. Not sure what I would cut for it but I do really think it is a good choice if your Meta suits it.

I agree with @Dice_Box. Meta is have lots of gain life choices. That's why Skullcrack and Sulfuric Vortex are vere good options.

About Searing Blaze, it is not that hard to cast it. The only problem sometimes it is when the fetchland gets stifled. Just a few decks do not use creatures. Why do not use this card in maindeck? Ali Aintrazi did, for example.

***

How is your list, @Dice_Box?

Dice_Box
05-09-2013, 04:00 AM
Deck as it stands is a rather basic affair. I have ordered some Grims mostly to deal with Critters. I do not like using spells on critters if I do not absolutely have to.


4 Goblin Guide

4 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Volcanic Fallout

4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

20 Mountain


//Sideboard
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher


The sideboard changes often, the only card I have grown attached too is Vexing. An uncounterable Price is a funny thing to see. Also I hate CotV so much when playing this.
I want Grim in, will likely cut Volcanic and test that.
I would like more grave hate in there. Will look at that later. As it stands this is what I have. Nothing fancy, but it does the trick.

Last, if Skullcrack does go in, I think Flame rift will likely come out as a test. Unless CotV on one becomes a big issue and then I will drop a Lava Spike for it.

JPettie
05-12-2013, 11:26 PM
Deck as it stands is a rather basic affair. I have ordered some Grims mostly to deal with Critters. I do not like using spells on critters if I do not absolutely have to.


4 Goblin Guide

4 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Volcanic Fallout

4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

20 Mountain


//Sideboard
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher


The sideboard changes often, the only card I have grown attached too is Vexing. An uncounterable Price is a funny thing to see. Also I hate CotV so much when playing this.
I want Grim in, will likely cut Volcanic and test that.
I would like more grave hate in there. Will look at that later. As it stands this is what I have. Nothing fancy, but it does the trick.

Last, if Skullcrack does go in, I think Flame rift will likely come out as a test. Unless CotV on one becomes a big issue and then I will drop a Lava Spike for it.

If you are going to run Grims, would have to run quite a few Fetches as well to really power them. I would suggest Ingot Chewer if you are having problems with Chalice of the Void. It is an uncounterable way to deal with any artifact that gives you trouble and only costs R. I want to test Vexing Shusher more, I run only 3 right now, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to go to 4 just to beat the counter match ups. I don't like committing too many sweepers or creature removal to the mainboard incase of playing storm or other decks that just don't care about it, I might actually go to 4 Ensnaring, at 3 right now, not sure if 4 would be better against Sneak n Show. I would suggest against taking out Flame Rift, I find this card is very vital to Burn and most people tend to just ignore it or stay away from it because of its downside, but it really is a strong card and can be played under a Chalice lock on 1. I would also suggest going to Mindbreak Trap over Pyrostatic Pillar because of the matches where they just kill you turn 1.

On a weird note:
Can you respond to Chalice of the Void Trigger when casting a card for R, and pay Vexing to make it uncounterable and it resolves?

ahg113
05-13-2013, 12:01 AM
On a weird note:
Can you respond to Chalice of the Void Trigger when casting a card for R, and pay Vexing to make it uncounterable and it resolves?

Yup. In resp. to the chalice trigger, activate shusher and your spell will still resolve (assuming opponent does have another response- stifle/another counter.) This also works through Counterbalance in similar fashion.

iamajellydonut
05-14-2013, 12:00 PM
I would suggest Ingot Chewer if you are having problems with Chalice of the Void. It is an uncounterable way to deal with any artifact that gives you trouble and only costs R.

Ingot Chewer is still very counterable. The difference is that it can't be countered by Chalice. Under that criteria, Shattering Spree can't be countered by Chalice either, and Smash to Smithereens dodges Chalice set at 1. Both of which I'd rank far higher than Ingot Chewer.


I would also suggest going to Mindbreak Trap over Pyrostatic Pillar because of the matches where they just kill you turn 1.

Agreed. I'd call Pyrostatic Pillar more of a relic from when TEPS still existed (Extended) and Ad Nauseum was more popular. Another plus of Mindbreak Trap is that it can situationally deal with things like Reanimator and is an outright hard counter to things like Belcher. Both of which Pyrostatic Pillar is utterly inept at combating.

paeng4983
05-29-2013, 10:40 PM
I participated in a 5 rounder legacy last week and my MUs were

Nicfit 2-0 He lost due to he could not find enough lands for him to cast his threats.
dredge 2-0 I was just lucky here. He did not have enough creatures to cast DR.
Junk 2-0 I spent all my burn spells at his life points.
oops all spell deck 2-1 An opening Surgical Extraction did it for me.
Sneakyshow 0-2 Grisel and Emrakul were to much for burn to handle.

I used 4 Skullcrack and 4 Sulfuric Vortex in my main deck because sneaky show and/ or omnitell are getting more rampant in my meta.

Dice_Box
05-29-2013, 10:59 PM
Do you run Ensnaring Bridge in your sideboard? I know it does not stop Griselbrand as a draw engine but it stops Sneak and Show from wiping you from the face of the earth. Also if Sneak attack is SnT'ed in you can drop Bridge on the SnT. Bridge also works well against decks that are critter heavy. It is funny to see a Batterskull on a Mystic that is dead in the water.

paeng4983
06-04-2013, 05:32 AM
Do you run Ensnaring Bridge in your sideboard? I know it does not stop Griselbrand as a draw engine but it stops Sneak and Show from wiping you from the face of the earth. Also if Sneak attack is SnT'ed in you can drop Bridge on the SnT. Bridge also works well against decks that are critter heavy. It is funny to see a Batterskull on a Mystic that is dead in the water.

Yes I did. In fact, I was able to resolved one during my game vs. the sneaky show but unfortunately for me, it got bounced by an echoing truth and the tag team champion (emrakul and grisel) went for the kill after that.

^_^

Strassbaw
06-20-2013, 03:52 AM
Pyrostaic pillar might be a good board choice for people considering this deck in current meta. I think it may even be good against OmniTell (untested).

List I may run

Goblin guide 4
Grim Lavamancer 4
Vexing devil 4

Lightning bolt 4
Chain lightning 4
Rift Bolt 4
Lava Spike 4
price of progress 4
fireblast 4
searing blaze 2
sulfuric vortex 2

8 mountain
12 fetch


Side
Pyrostatic pillar 4
Rebs/pyroblast 4
ensnairing bridge 3
dismember 2
searing blaze 1
sulfuric vortex 1


Dismember may be the most odd choice, however, in my experience its pretty effective against a variety of deck where early life loss is really irrelevant and decks with "kill on site creatures" (stoneblade, mud, mav ). I also think it may be effective against Goyf disruption decks (Team america and Rug) if burn has a slow start or hit a wall of counter spells backed by Goyf. Feedback appreciated.

iamajellydonut
06-21-2013, 05:08 AM
Pyrostaic pillar might be a good board choice for people considering this deck in current meta. I think it may even be good against OmniTell (untested).

Pyrostatic Pillar is honestly has-been trash. Which is depressing since it's such a fun card, but it's the truth. What deck honestly gives a crap about it? Even ANT doesn't care. OmniTell especially doesn't care about Pyrostatic Pillar and can bounce it in as little as four damage. Now, you may be thinking "wow! at least four damage! that's super efficient for 2cc!", but keep in mind that you just lost the game regardless.

If you actually need a solution to things that you can't deal with, you call upon heaping amounts of REBs and Mindbreak Trap. Both of which work against OmniTells and both of which are actual insurance against "losing". More specifically against OmniTell is Sudden Shock.


Dismember may be the most odd choice, however, in my experience its pretty effective against a variety of deck where early life loss is really irrelevant and decks with "kill on site creatures" (stoneblade, mud, mav ). I also think it may be effective against Goyf disruption decks (Team america and Rug) if burn has a slow start or hit a wall of counter spells backed by Goyf. Feedback appreciated.

Also, not a great choice. Your solution to decks that hope to beat you before you can beat them is to "beat them harder". Ensnaring Bridge is great against Sneak 'n' Show because it wins the game. Sun Droplet is great in mirror because it wins the game. Dismember and kin just delay the game at the cost of you not smacking them in the face for damage. In fact, with Dismember specifically, you lose four life. I'm not entirely sure how that's a cost efficient way to deal with Tarmogoyf especially considering it can still get countered. If you really want something in that slot, you'd probably fair better with Flame Slash as your go-to option option. Though, it still stands that Searing Blaze is generally better and/or just use Volcanic Fallout to deal with the smaller bodies like Delver and Confidant and Deathrite and Stoneforge and Stuff.

Plague Sliver
06-21-2013, 02:28 PM
Ensnaring bridge is pretty sweet technology.

I also agree that Skullcrack and Searing Blaze are not maindeckable.

Strassbaw
06-22-2013, 06:50 PM
@ iamajellydonut and Plague Sliver

Thanks for the advise. I have redone my list because of what you both have said and some of what I have read. Here is the updated list:

Goblin guide 4
Grim Lavamancer 4
Vexing devil 4

Lightning bolt 4
Chain lightning 4
Rift Bolt 4
Lava Spike 4
price of progress 4
fireblast 4
Flame Rift 4

8 mountain
12 fetch


Side
Mindbreak trap or Pyrostatic pillar 3
Rebs/pyroblast 3
ensnairing bridge 3
searing blaze 3
sulfuric vortex 3


I had a bad memory about playing searing blaze. Even in decks were its effective, its awkward. Main deck seems like a bad call. No Vortex main is my big fear, however, esperblade seems to be more often than not esper Deathblade, and searing blaze with vortex in board should be enough to win me that match.

Im not sold on Mindbreak trap just yet. Its def a better choice for tendrils and belcher, but is this card really going to be a good board in choice against OmniTell as I feel Pillar would be (Within my list and I have nothing Heavy to put in with S&T besides 3 ensnairing bridges which may not be enough).

From here my questions are:
Is burn a strong match up against elves to forget about pillar.
Is mindbreak trap a real solution to Omnitell
Is having 3 hate cards specifically for each deck enough to win bad match ups (Like reanimator, bridge and reb may not be enough. Iona is some bullshit!)

Big legacy day tomorrow! Wish me luck and any feedback will be helpful!

Thanks again!

iamajellydonut
06-23-2013, 02:23 AM
Im not sold on Mindbreak trap just yet. Its def a better choice for tendrils and belcher, but is this card really going to be a good board in choice against OmniTell as I feel Pillar would be (Within my list and I have nothing Heavy to put in with S&T besides 3 ensnairing bridges which may not be enough).

From here my questions are:
Is burn a strong match up against elves to forget about pillar.
Is mindbreak trap a real solution to Omnitell
Is having 3 hate cards specifically for each deck enough to win bad match ups (Like reanimator, bridge and reb may not be enough. Iona is some bullshit!)
First off, let me grind something in... Nothing Burn can do really solves combo. Or aggro. Or other burn decks. That's one of the big reasons Burn isn't a viable tournament deck. You deal 3 to the face and hope they die first. The only way to actually deal with an opposing deck is to remove cards from your "GOD PLEASE LET ME GET THERE" barrage to simply slow them down. Burn isn't a competitive deck. Just a reliable budget one.

Anyway, Mindbreak Trap is easily the tech of choice. I'm not going to go through the effort of typing it out because it's 1am, I just got back from work, I don't care, and it's a moot point. Pyrostatic Pillar does nothing. It will not win you any game that you wouldn't stand a good chance of winning anyway. Again, OmniShow doesn't give a shit about Pyrostatic Pillar. They don't use their life as a resource, so they can just plan around it and kill you regardless. On the other side of the field, if they cantrip or do whatever inbetween Dreamhalls/Omniscience and Enter the Infinite, Mindbreak Trap can at least be cast.


Vexing devil 4

Side
sulfuric vortex 3
Vexing Devil is awful. It's not worth the risk of giving your opponent a choice. Sure, you may look at it and say "well either way I get something good!", but you really don't. You're expected to get 3-4 damage per card anyway. If your opponent chooses to take the damage, it's not like it really differs from the norm.

With regards to the other option... Creatures on your side generally suck dick. No matter what your opponent sideboards out, they will never take out Goyfs. They will never take out Cliques. They will never take out Delvers. They will never take out Batterskulls. They will never take out Mom. They will never take out Lightning Bolt. They won't even take out basic chump-blockers like Snapcaster. Vexing Devil enables a great host of cards to effectively be counterspells and transforms otherwise dead removal such as Swords to Plowshares into relevant tech.

In the meantime, Sulfuric Vortex is house and should always be 3x Mainboard. Always. It wins you games you have no business winning with staggering consistency. The only reason you usually don't run 4x Mainboard is because 3cc is really high.

So, bam. That change would make room for one more card in the mainboard and two more card in the sideboard assuming you keep a fourth copy of Sulfuric Vortex there. Burn is a very cut-and-dry deck with not a lot of room for variation. It's a deck based simply around numbers. It my seem like I'm pushing you towards a copied list or whatever you want to call it, but it's because that's all there is. Really, the only room for personalization is how much you like Grim Lavamancer and how much you like Fireblast.

Dice_Box
06-23-2013, 02:35 AM
Ensnaring bridge is pretty sweet technology.

I also agree that Skullcrack and Searing Blaze are not maindeckable.

I disagree on Skullcrack. It costs a bit more than some other cards, but it really does throw a spanner in the works of Blade decks and they are getting common enough to think about Maindeck answers for them.

JPettie
06-27-2013, 05:21 PM
I disagree on Skullcrack. It costs a bit more than some other cards, but it really does throw a spanner in the works of Blade decks and they are getting common enough to think about Maindeck answers for them.

Skullcrack only stops life gain for one turn, what is a better choice (at least I believe so) is to take care of the card that is gaining them life. Options like Smash to Smithereens and Shattering Spree seem like much better choices to me. I would rather take care of my problems than delay them. To combat the blade variants, I would think about Grim Lavamancer, the card kills every creature they have except Batterskull, and if they can't equip anything, they sit there and lose the game. I have to say I agree with iamajellydonut on a lot of things he has said and I have a lot of experience playing the deck to know that he has the best in mind for everyone so far.

Dice_Box
06-27-2013, 08:24 PM
Skullcrack only stops life gain for one turn, what is a better choice (at least I believe so) is to take care of the card that is gaining them life. Options like Smash to Smithereens and Shattering Spree seem like much better choices to me. I would rather take care of my problems than delay them. To combat the blade variants, I would think about Grim Lavamancer, the card kills every creature they have except Batterskull, and if they can't equip anything, they sit there and lose the game. I have to say I agree with iamajellydonut on a lot of things he has said and I have a lot of experience playing the deck to know that he has the best in mind for everyone so far.
I agree. My only issue with Art hate is that you have to board it is so it will not save you game one. Skull gives you game one options. I would like to add that it is a personal choice based on Meta issues. The "Damage can't be prevented this turn" is really the thing that is most useful when you have players that sit behind Glacial Chasm and cause you headaches.

I will say this. I think that Skull is maindeck viable with an easy option to side it out if it happens to be unneeded. There is just too much lifegain in the game right now and Art hate maindeck is not something I would run.

iamajellydonut
06-28-2013, 01:59 AM
I will say this. I think that Skull is maindeck viable with an easy option to side it out if it happens to be unneeded. There is just too much lifegain in the game right now and Art hate maindeck is not something I would run.
What bizarre meta are you playing in? Aside from the occasional Kitchen Finks and the "why are you killing creatures in the first place but not this" Deathrite Shaman, the only popular maindeck lifegain right now is Batterskull. If a deck can get a Batterskull out before you can kill them, you're in a really shit place regardless. Even if you Skullcrack, Batterskull still shuts down Goblin Guide and will proceed to massacre you on future turns that they are now insured to have since you wasted mana on an inefficient spell.

If you want do deal with something, you deal with it. If your problem is Batterskull, you're either...

A) Not reliably killing them by turn six.
B) Not dealing with the Stoneforge Mystic or reliably killing them by turn four.

If you have some insolent mindset against using common spells to kill Stoneforge, then run Volcanic Fallout or something. Fallout may be three mana, but at least it's multipurpose, non-targeting, can't be countered, and rapes the world. In the meantime, Skullcrack does "stuff" at best. I wouldn't even call Glacial Chasm a good enough reason to run Skullcrack. Blood Moon is a solid post-board answer if your meta truly calls for something, and "use instants better" is a viable answer in general.

JPettie
06-28-2013, 12:29 PM
I agree. My only issue with Art hate is that you have to board it is so it will not save you game one. Skull gives you game one options. I would like to add that it is a personal choice based on Meta issues. The "Damage can't be prevented this turn" is really the thing that is most useful when you have players that sit behind Glacial Chasm and cause you headaches.

I will say this. I think that Skull is maindeck viable with an easy option to side it out if it happens to be unneeded. There is just too much lifegain in the game right now and Art hate maindeck is not something I would run.

I feel like Burn has a good match up against Blade decks (at least ones without Deathrite Shaman). If you really have a problem with that archetype, I would suggest going Grims and prioritizing burn on their creatures along with trying to land a Sulfuric Vortex which wins the match up right there. Game one really doesn't seem like a loss to me based on not having Skullcrack. I can see your use of it, but it reduces your average kill turn because of being 2cc. I mean to be honest, the only reason we play Flame Rift that I know of is that it is 2 for 4. I can't justify a 2 for 3 when the rest of the deck runs 1 for 3 and it doesn't have the reach of being able to kill a creature as well. Dealing with creatures and playing a longer game one is not the worst situation you could be in I don't believe and if you side in artifact hate game two and three seem a lot better for you. It really is a tough choice when it comes to changing Burn in any way, even the sideboard is iffy because there are so many bad match ups for us. I try to evaluate a card in maindeck based on all situations that would occur and Skullcrack lacks in that department versus other cards for me. As a final note, never be afraid to Fireblast a Batterskull, I have won games because of it. ;)

paeng4983
07-16-2013, 11:17 PM
Here in my place, Stoneforge into Batterskull, or Show and Tell into Griselbrand were dominating before. That's why I opt for a set of skullcrack in my main deck.

Now that my meta is shifting from those mentioned above into jund, nic fit, shardless bug, I think I'll replace the cracks with Searing Blaze. I still have a set of sulfuric vortex to deal with some life gaining effects.

Flopnuts72
07-24-2013, 09:44 PM
Has anyone tested young pyromancer in burn yet???

vennie
07-25-2013, 08:31 AM
Am I correct if I say City in a bottle really kills mono red burn if you have a way to deal with any resolved non-land permanents since you have no mana left to play anything??

Dice_Box
07-25-2013, 08:50 AM
Am I correct if I say City in a bottle really kills mono red burn if you have a way to deal with any resolved non-land permanents since you have no mana left to play anything??
I do not understand this question. City in a Bottle does very little as almost no one plays with Arabian Nights cards. It is erated to only target cards from the set, not cards that are reprints so it does not hose land if thats what you are meaning.

Kayradis
07-25-2013, 09:00 AM
Am I correct if I say City in a bottle really kills mono red burn if you have a way to deal with any resolved non-land permanents since you have no mana left to play anything??

Prior to the rule change, if you were playing someone with a 100% AN mountains yes, it would be effective.
Since the 13th of July, an errata on the rule changed all that. It won't affect them since their original printing was Alpha.

vennie
07-25-2013, 09:23 AM
Prior to the rule change, if you were playing someone with a 100% AN mountains yes, it would be effective.
Since the 13th of July, an errata on the rule changed all that. It won't affect them since their original printing was Alpha.



Wait...

Why would someone sane play with all AN Mountain in Burn? Get a life!

Ah, I guess i just made a mistake here. Thought it now hit all cards printed in AN, but it now is all cards that were first printed in AN.

David Kaplan
08-02-2013, 08:27 PM
Quick splash overview for those in Wasteland-lite environments:

Blue
Delver + Brainstorm
SB: Submerge (Not a huge fan, it doesn't deal damage directly or solve a problem)
Delver is the strongest splash card available and Brainstorm fits the deck very well. I do not like adding countermagic beyond this. Most people play around Daze/Pierce/FoW anyway.

Black
Bump in the Night
SB: Thoughtseize/Duress + Dark Confidant + Rakdos Charm
Bump is an upgrade over your last 4 slots. Access to Thoughtseize makes the splash doable. Rakdos is versatile: Elves/Empty the Warrens/Robots .. Graveyard and Artifact hate.

White
Boros Charm
SB: Wear/Tear + Oblivion Ring
Boros Charm is a minor upgrade over your weakest 4 slots. Wear/Tear is decent if you run into Leyline. O Ring is versatile.

Green is not splashable. There are no cards that arguably increase your clock or reduce variability.

I have splashed blue for some time and feel it is very strong, even against a bunch of Wastelands. I'm working with the black version now. Boros Charm is not worth the splash.

What is everyone's experience with splashes?

LeoCop 90
08-02-2013, 08:50 PM
I have no experience with splashes but i think flusterstorm would be a good sideboard card against combo if splashing blue.
White also offers steppe lynx but it needs to play a lot of fetches.... 14 would be optimal.

David Kaplan
08-03-2013, 04:21 PM
I have no experience with splashes but i think flusterstorm would be a good sideboard card against combo if splashing blue.
White also offers steppe lynx but it needs to play a lot of fetches.... 14 would be optimal.

Flusterstorm is interesting. When would we prefer it over Red Elemental Blast or Mindbreak Trap? Against Combo, I like Trap because it's free (and does not require a free blue.) It also can hit more than instants/sorceries (Craterhoof Behemoth, Charbelcher) and is a hard counter, so they do not get any copies of goblins/tendrils they can pay for. Flusterstorm does make them consider actually paying 2 for a Silence/Duress, that seems narrow.

I've tried Lynx and so did Patrick Sullivan. It is the compliment to Thunderous Wrath. Lynx is the worst card in your deck if not played on turn 1. For a game that goes 6 turns, you will draw into it ~40% of the time.

iamajellydonut
08-05-2013, 01:31 AM
Quick splash overview for those in Wasteland-lite environments:

This is not, has not, and will never be the issue. There are two reasons for "no splash" and literally two reasons only.

1) You don't care about creatures and you don't want to run them. Even the best of creatures like Delver or Confidant or Goyf or... Lynx? Really? Lynx? Anyway, they don't get there. They don't smack your opponent for 5 damage and win the game. They enable any leftover kill spells and turn all of their creatures into wall-like counterspells. Creatures are exceptionally bad and even Goblin Guide is undeniably risky. However, it has haste, so it makes the cut. Confidant does not have haste. Delver will never flip. No one cares about Goyf.

2) Anything you run as "disruption" disrupts your own plan. If you want to beat X, you shouldn't run sick tech in the board. You should run Smash to Smithereens and win faster. You should board in your fourth Sulfuric Vortex and win better. You should board in your Searing Blazes and shit in their cornflakes. Thoughtseize and Futterstorm do not win the game and they do not ensure that your opponent literally cannot win the game like Ensnaring Bridge can. They're awful, they slow you down, and they give your opponent more room to breathe.


If you don't agree with the above, you're wrong and should just make U/R Delver.

JPettie
08-05-2013, 09:56 AM
This is not, has not, and will never be the issue. There are two reasons for "no splash" and literally two reasons only.

1) You don't care about creatures and you don't want to run them. Even the best of creatures like Delver or Confidant or Goyf or... Lynx? Really? Lynx? Anyway, they don't get there. They don't smack your opponent for 5 damage and win the game. They enable any leftover kill spells and turn all of their creatures into wall-like counterspells. Creatures are exceptionally bad and even Goblin Guide is undeniably risky. However, it has haste, so it makes the cut. Confidant does not have haste. Delver will never flip. No one cares about Goyf.

2) Anything you run as "disruption" disrupts your own plan. If you want to beat X, you shouldn't run sick tech in the board. You should run Smash to Smithereens and win faster. You should board in your fourth Sulfuric Vortex and win better. You should board in your Searing Blazes and shit in their cornflakes. Thoughtseize and Futterstorm do not win the game and they do not ensure that your opponent literally cannot win the game like Ensnaring Bridge can. They're awful, they slow you down, and they give your opponent more room to breathe.


If you don't agree with the above, you're wrong and should just make U/R Delver.

I absolutely and whole-heartily agree with the above, except maybe the shitting in people's cornflakes. I prefer making their greedy land base pay the price....of progress. Yeah that was weak but whatever, I love burn. There really are all the answers you need for a sideboard in the red scope, you just have to be looking in the right places, I find myself thinking I don't have enough sideboard space because I've endlessly researched red options and I know the majority of them well enough to know that a splash doesn't benefit our sideboard or even main board. I've knocked U/R Delver decks out of contention many times and they seem to always whine during the matches about why someone would not add blue to burn, it is so much better....

</rant>
tl;dr: The guy is right, and I would take some time to think about why he is right, I know only because of the endless amount of hours I've put into this deck. Also, this is the Burn thread, and I hate to put it like this, but it doesn't say the Burn Splash thread, there are other threads for that blasphemy. If you want to lose to wasteland, go for it.

David Kaplan
08-06-2013, 09:10 PM
This is not, has not, and will never be the issue. There are two reasons for "no splash" and literally two reasons only.

1) You don't care about creatures and you don't want to run them. Even the best of creatures like Delver or Confidant or Goyf or... Lynx? Really? Lynx? Anyway, they don't get there. They don't smack your opponent for 5 damage and win the game. They enable any leftover kill spells and turn all of their creatures into wall-like counterspells. Creatures are exceptionally bad and even Goblin Guide is undeniably risky. However, it has haste, so it makes the cut. Confidant does not have haste. Delver will never flip. No one cares about Goyf.

2) Anything you run as "disruption" disrupts your own plan. If you want to beat X, you shouldn't run sick tech in the board. You should run Smash to Smithereens and win faster. You should board in your fourth Sulfuric Vortex and win better. You should board in your Searing Blazes and shit in their cornflakes. Thoughtseize and Futterstorm do not win the game and they do not ensure that your opponent literally cannot win the game like Ensnaring Bridge can. They're awful, they slow you down, and they give your opponent more room to breathe.


If you don't agree with the above, you're wrong and should just make U/R Delver.

Thanks for the constructive criticism jelly. I agree that creatures are a liability, not a fan of lynx or goyf. Delver has been strong for me, flipping 2/3 of the time with Brainstorm manipulation. He is so strong, I feel he's better than flame rift. in terms of red creatures, most lists run guide and lavamancer at this point, despite their undeniable riskiness.

For sb disruption, most lists have a pyroblast/mindbreak trap slot. In my meta game, thoughtseize is stronger.

These are options I like testing when there aren't too many wastelands around.

xieyun006
08-08-2013, 08:16 AM
So since you're all hating on splashes would any one mind picking apart my white splash? THANKS!

21 lands

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats (because I don't have any other red fetches at the moment)
3 Plateau
6 Mountains

11 Creatures

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental

8 Sorceries

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

20 Instants

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Fire Blast
4 Price of Progress

SB

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Faerie Macabre

Don't be gentle, I like it rough... on a serious note though, I don't have too much experience with burn, and the event I'm attending will be the first serious Legacy event I've been to, so any advice is appreciated. My reasoning for splashing white started with what I felt to be better sideboard options. Then since I was running white I traded out flame rift for Boros Charm, and Helix for lavaspike, no real good reason for the lavaspike trade, I just don't like the card. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm not too worried about agression since thats what the deck does, I just don't like to be locked out of a game e.g. Iona, Chalice on 1/2, Counter/Top, and to some extent Layline of Sanctity. Rip away.

Justin
08-08-2013, 10:45 AM
@xieyun
Please take a look at the primer for this thread. It should give you lots of ideas for buidling this deck. You need to understand the strategy of the deck you are playing. How does it achieve victory? In the case of Burn, you want to deal 20 damage to your opponent as soon as posible. Occasionally, you may need to remove an opposing creature, but the vast majority of your burn spells in most matchups are aimed at your opponent's head. For this reason, Lava Spike is too good not to run four of. It does have drawbacks of being a sorcery that can't target creatures, but three damage for one mana is very efficient and fits into the strategy of the deck. This is also why Flame Rift is better than Lightning Helix for this deck. Most opposing decks cannot deal damage as quickly as Burn. So the lifegain from Helix isn't very helpful and that damage taken from Rift isn't all that harmful. Now Boros Charm is better than Flame Rift, but I don't think that it is enough so to warrent a white splash. Your opponent can Wasteland your Plateaus, not leaving you enough mana to cast all your spells in a timely manner. That's why most Burn players prefer mono-red.

xieyun006
08-09-2013, 01:28 AM
@xieyun
Please take a look at the primer for this thread. It should give you lots of ideas for buidling this deck. You need to understand the strategy of the deck you are playing. How does it achieve victory? In the case of Burn, you want to deal 20 damage to your opponent as soon as posible. Occasionally, you may need to remove an opposing creature, but the vast majority of your burn spells in most matchups are aimed at your opponent's head. For this reason, Lava Spike is too good not to run four of. It does have drawbacks of being a sorcery that can't target creatures, but three damage for one mana is very efficient and fits into the strategy of the deck. This is also why Flame Rift is better than Lightning Helix for this deck. Most opposing decks cannot deal damage as quickly as Burn. So the lifegain from Helix isn't very helpful and that damage taken from Rift isn't all that harmful. Now Boros Charm is better than Flame Rift, but I don't think that it is enough so to warrent a white splash. Your opponent can Wasteland your Plateaus, not leaving you enough mana to cast all your spells in a timely manner. That's why most Burn players prefer mono-red.

Thankyou for that, your points are very solid ones, I've read the primer and many other articles on burn, but I just wanted to see how it might work with the splash, during testing with mono red, I've lost one too many games with flame rift, or drawing into a lavaspike that I couldn't use in combination with another burn spell to kill a four toughness creature(I understand these grounds are narrow, but that they happened made me think) so I figured I tried something else. Any ways I'm gonna go back to mono red, I'll post a list before long. Thanks again for the advice.

olystuart
08-09-2013, 02:49 AM
So far the only list I've taken to a tourney (SCG Seattle in April) was a fetchless monored one with 4 Vortex, 4 Flame Rift, and 4 Vexing Devils. I'm doing a little testing here and there but will start doing more when it comes closer to the October Open here. I'm also slowly adding fetchlands to my collection, though with my lack of much budget I'll probably play fetchless again or possibly throw in ~4 fetches and maybe 2 Lavamancers. I'm not sure if that's worth it or not yet - more testing. I am testing a Rw splash-list as well though. In it I do run 4 Boros Charm over Flame Rift, do not run Helix or any other white cards in the main. The main reason is Wear // Tear. I'm not sold on the splash, but I did lose 2 games to Leyline in the Open and it sucks having zero answers to a popular 4-of (in my limited experience, Leylines don't get talked about much because most of the Legacy coverage is of the top tables and Top 8s, and I think more non-elite decks at the mid tables play Leylines). There are other corner cases as well such as hitting Omniscience or Dream Halls in response to Enter the Infinite coming on the stack. In the end my guess is that I'll come to the conclusion of just about every good Burn player out there: mono Red is the place to be. Leylines suck to face but Burn is probably better off just asking: do you have it? Decks that pack Leylines are often decks we can successfully race. I mean do they really want to Mull down to it? If so they might just lose to all of our non-targetting damage (GGs Flame Rift Vortex Devils PoP) before they can draw into their lock or combo anyway. And if we lose 2 games in a long tourney to Leyline or another enchantment, so what? We probably end up losing 2 games to Wasteland if we splash. Boros Charm could save your Vortex in some odd game situation I guess, but in the context of Burn it's just really a worse Flame Rift because it requires the splash and also because it targets. So yeah I think I just talked myself out of white splash while rambling about my testing experience :)
What do ya'll think about running 6 REB/Pyroblast in the 'board? I'm liking #s 5 and 6 better than other options for the moment in testing such as Shusher, Ensnaring Bridge, and Mindbreak Trap. Again, probably wrong, just something I'm testing out as REB is just so crucial in some hard matches.

JPettie
08-09-2013, 10:11 AM
So far the only list I've taken to a tourney (SCG Seattle in April) was a fetchless monored one with 4 Vortex, 4 Flame Rift, and 4 Vexing Devils. I'm doing a little testing here and there but will start doing more when it comes closer to the October Open here. I'm also slowly adding fetchlands to my collection, though with my lack of much budget I'll probably play fetchless again or possibly throw in ~4 fetches and maybe 2 Lavamancers. I'm not sure if that's worth it or not yet - more testing. I am testing a Rw splash-list as well though. In it I do run 4 Boros Charm over Flame Rift, do not run Helix or any other white cards in the main. The main reason is Wear // Tear. I'm not sold on the splash, but I did lose 2 games to Leyline in the Open and it sucks having zero answers to a popular 4-of (in my limited experience, Leylines don't get talked about much because most of the Legacy coverage is of the top tables and Top 8s, and I think more non-elite decks at the mid tables play Leylines). There are other corner cases as well such as hitting Omniscience or Dream Halls in response to Enter the Infinite coming on the stack. In the end my guess is that I'll come to the conclusion of just about every good Burn player out there: mono Red is the place to be. Leylines suck to face but Burn is probably better off just asking: do you have it? Decks that pack Leylines are often decks we can successfully race. I mean do they really want to Mull down to it? If so they might just lose to all of our non-targetting damage (GGs Flame Rift Vortex Devils PoP) before they can draw into their lock or combo anyway. And if we lose 2 games in a long tourney to Leyline or another enchantment, so what? We probably end up losing 2 games to Wasteland if we splash. Boros Charm could save your Vortex in some odd game situation I guess, but in the context of Burn it's just really a worse Flame Rift because it requires the splash and also because it targets. So yeah I think I just talked myself out of white splash while rambling about my testing experience :)
What do ya'll think about running 6 REB/Pyroblast in the 'board? I'm liking #s 5 and 6 better than other options for the moment in testing such as Shusher, Ensnaring Bridge, and Mindbreak Trap. Again, probably wrong, just something I'm testing out as REB is just so crucial in some hard matches.

What decks have you been play testing against? I find Ensnaring Bridge to be a needed 3 slot just for Sneak and Show decks, along with just landing one in some creature match ups can flat out win the game for you, not that I suggest always bringing it in against all creature decks, only certain ones. Mindbreak Trap is a pretty hard card to pass up when Storm can just beat us first turn without it, I like to have 4 around. Shusher is iffy and to me depends on the meta you are expecting, I find it is very good against the counterbalance match-ups and heavy mono blue decks, but Pyroblast/REB is also very good at what it does. It is a hard call, side boarding, I find I spend most of my time on it, rather than the main board.

I have a core that I never seem to change sideboard wise and it evolves these cards:

4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre


Interestingly enough, even though I am playing a mono-red deck, all those options are not red cards. ;p
If you are seeing heavy use of Leyline, and I know you only said a few loses, I would consider Anarchy. For the time you would just non-target damage and save up until you can land an Anarchy, could be worth while, I know it is a relic of the past when a lot of White decks hated us out.

xieyun006
08-09-2013, 10:25 AM
So far the only list I've taken to a tourney (SCG Seattle in April) was a fetchless monored one with 4 Vortex, 4 Flame Rift, and 4 Vexing Devils. I'm doing a little testing here and there but will start doing more when it comes closer to the October Open here. I'm also slowly adding fetchlands to my collection, though with my lack of much budget I'll probably play fetchless again or possibly throw in ~4 fetches and maybe 2 Lavamancers. I'm not sure if that's worth it or not yet - more testing. I am testing a Rw splash-list as well though. In it I do run 4 Boros Charm over Flame Rift, do not run Helix or any other white cards in the main. The main reason is Wear // Tear. I'm not sold on the splash, but I did lose 2 games to Leyline in the Open and it sucks having zero answers to a popular 4-of (in my limited experience, Leylines don't get talked about much because most of the Legacy coverage is of the top tables and Top 8s, and I think more non-elite decks at the mid tables play Leylines). There are other corner cases as well such as hitting Omniscience or Dream Halls in response to Enter the Infinite coming on the stack. In the end my guess is that I'll come to the conclusion of just about every good Burn player out there: mono Red is the place to be. Leylines suck to face but Burn is probably better off just asking: do you have it? Decks that pack Leylines are often decks we can successfully race. I mean do they really want to Mull down to it? If so they might just lose to all of our non-targetting damage (GGs Flame Rift Vortex Devils PoP) before they can draw into their lock or combo anyway. And if we lose 2 games in a long tourney to Leyline or another enchantment, so what? We probably end up losing 2 games to Wasteland if we splash. Boros Charm could save your Vortex in some odd game situation I guess, but in the context of Burn it's just really a worse Flame Rift because it requires the splash and also because it targets. So yeah I think I just talked myself out of white splash while rambling about my testing experience :)
What do ya'll think about running 6 REB/Pyroblast in the 'board? I'm liking #s 5 and 6 better than other options for the moment in testing such as Shusher, Ensnaring Bridge, and Mindbreak Trap. Again, probably wrong, just something I'm testing out as REB is just so crucial in some hard matches.

I know how you feel man, theres just times when it hurts to play burn, since enchantment removal is completely unavailable in our color. But yeah I've come back to mono red again, though no vortex for me, it just seems too little too late most of the time. I know the blanking lifegain is nice, but in the first five turns where most burn games are played, the only life gain you are gonna see is deathrite, jitte, and finks, unless I'm missing something, and of those, finks aren't even popular any more, and jitte still takes time to get on line, Deathrite being 2 toughness is easy to deal with, so I just don't think its necessary maindeck.

New deck list:

EDIT: I realize with the new mana curve I can probably afford to drop a land or two, but can't decide what to put in, any suggestions?...Maybe I should just leave it alone...

20 lands

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Red fetches
8 Mountains

11 Creatures

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental

15 Sorceries

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava spike
3 Flame rift

14 Instants

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Searing Blaze
4 Fire Blast
4 Price of Progress

SB

2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Oblivion Ring
3 REB
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mindbreak Trap

JPettie
08-09-2013, 01:05 PM
I know how you feel man, theres just times when it hurts to play burn, since enchantment removal is completely unavailable in our color. But yeah I've come back to mono red again, though no vortex for me, it just seems too little too late most of the time. I know the blanking lifegain is nice, but in the first five turns where most burn games are played, the only life gain you are gonna see is deathrite, jitte, and finks, unless I'm missing something, and of those, finks aren't even popular any more, and jitte still takes time to get on line, Deathrite being 2 toughness is easy to deal with, so I just don't think its necessary maindeck.

New deck list:

EDIT: I realize with the new mana curve I can probably afford to drop a land or two, but can't decide what to put in, any suggestions?...Maybe I should just leave it alone...

20 lands

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Red fetches
8 Mountains

11 Creatures

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental

15 Sorceries

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lavadart
3 Flame rift

14 Instants

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Searing Blaze
4 Fire Blast
4 Price of Progress

SB

2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Oblivion Ring
3 REB
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mindbreak Trap

What is your reasoning behind Lava Dart, and why is Flame Jab not strictly better for the job?

tesla
08-09-2013, 01:25 PM
What is your reasoning behind Lava Dart, and why is Flame Jab not strictly better for the job?

Didn´t he mean lava spike?

xieyun006
08-09-2013, 01:45 PM
yeah my bad that was lava spike, fixed

Humphrey
08-09-2013, 03:36 PM
This is my Burnlist i play from time to time

4 Goblin Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast

4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Badlands
1 Taiga

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

ahg113
08-09-2013, 05:25 PM
This is my Burnlist i play from time to time

4 Goblin Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast

4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Badlands
1 Taiga

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

What is your experience splashing with DRS? I typically think a benefit of burn is the general immunity from wasteland (Barbarian Ring aside). It seems that the DRS could be replaced with lavamancer with little affect.

tesla
08-09-2013, 05:50 PM
What is your experience splashing with DRS? I typically think a benefit of burn is the general immunity from wasteland (Barbarian Ring aside). It seems that the DRS could be replaced with lavamancer with little affect.

Exactly. The improvement you´ll get by replacing lavamancer with shaman is not worth make ourself vulnerable to wastelands. Not to mention PoP.

Humphrey
08-09-2013, 07:59 PM
Pop is usually just another Flame Rift at worst.
If the opponent is wasting me, I dont care. Most spells cost 1 and dont forget DRS "counters" Wasteland.
DRS usually helps winning a turn faster, besides his other abilities.

xieyun006
08-11-2013, 02:37 AM
Pop is usually just another Flame Rift at worst.
If the opponent is wasting me, I dont care. Most spells cost 1 and dont forget DRS "counters" Wasteland.
DRS usually helps winning a turn faster, besides his other abilities.

I like lavamancer better than DRS, hitting creatures is amazing against somedecks, leaving your precious cards in hand for the opponent. Have you considered using bump in the night over flame rift, or vortex?

LeoCop 90
08-11-2013, 08:56 AM
enchantment removal is completely unavailable in our color

Chaos Warp ? Wizard has been so kind to print this red catch-all removal, i think we should use it. It might not be the best card in the world at 3cmc but it is the only way we have to remove enchantments (not considering slow-as-hell artifacts like ratchet bomb).

FTW
08-11-2013, 04:46 PM
Chaos Warp ? Wizard has been so kind to print this red catch-all removal, i think we should use it. It might not be the best card in the world at 3cmc but it is the only way we have to remove enchantments (not considering slow-as-hell artifacts like ratchet bomb).

I will buy a playset of foil Japanese Jittes if someone can show me a video of them doing the following in a sanctioned Legacy tournament:
-casting Chaos Warp on an enchantment (e.g. Omniscience or Sneak Attack)
-opponent Brainstorms in response, putting Emrakul the Aeons Torn on top of library

Maikhell
08-11-2013, 06:42 PM
I will buy a playset of foil Japanese Jittes if someone can show me a video of them doing the following in a sanctioned Legacy tournament:
-casting Chaos Warp on an enchantment (e.g. Omniscience or Sneak Attack)
-opponent Brainstorms in response, putting Emrakul the Aeons Torn on top of library


There's just no way of it works since the card use a shuffle effect, and if they put the Emrakul on top as response they will just lose their big creature.

FTW
08-12-2013, 02:36 AM
There's just no way of it works since the card use a shuffle effect, and if they put the Emrakul on top as response they will just lose their big creature.

You'll notice there wasn't a third bullet point for "Emrakul enters the battlefield". The jokes on them! Like I said, if you can get a video of that happening in any sanctioned event, please post it! So many LOLOL

Humphrey
08-13-2013, 11:33 AM
I like lavamancer better than DRS, hitting creatures is amazing against somedecks, leaving your precious cards in hand for the opponent. Have you considered using bump in the night over flame rift, or vortex?

The ability to hit creatures is good, but dont forget you need to remove 2 cards and you cant mess with opp. graveyards. With DRS you have preboard gyremoval and manaacceleration.

I tried Bump, but I think it sucks. Vortex ist one of the strongest cards in the deck and Rift deals 4 which is >3. Besides you dont always want to fetch for Badlands.

TableTopMagic
08-15-2013, 02:10 AM
I am also testing a idea for a RB Burn deck using Deathrite Shaman, but I have Bump in the Night in the main too. One of the cool thinks I have been thinking about for this build is access to Cabal Therapy in the board. That gives me a little help against Combo, and the added speed of DRS should also help against Aggro. If needed I could use DRS to help drop turn two Sulfuric Vortex or Volcanic Fallout.

Humphrey
08-15-2013, 06:56 PM
Against combo try Leyline of Sanctuary and Mindbreak Traps in the board.

Gaudy
08-19-2013, 06:51 PM
i play a version of Burn, with Tarmogoyf in

main

8 mountains
4 taiga
6 fetchs

4 Tarmogoyf
3 vexing devil
4 lavamante
4 Goblin Guide

4 rift bolt
4 chain Lightning
4 Lightning bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 price of progress
4 Fireblast
3 flame rift

side
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Leyline of the void
3 Angel of despair
3 smash to smithereens

JPettie
08-21-2013, 05:40 PM
i play a version of Burn, with Tarmogoyf in

main

8 mountains
4 taiga
6 fetchs

4 Tarmogoyf
3 vexing devil
4 lavamante
4 Goblin Guide

4 rift bolt
4 chain Lightning
4 Lightning bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 price of progress
4 Fireblast
3 flame rift

side
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Leyline of the void
3 Angel of despair
3 smash to smithereens

Does Grim Lavamancer not counteract your Tarmogoyf plan?
It also seems like you have a lot of sideboard cards dedicated to beating Sneak and Show.
Are you having a lot of problems with the match-up where you play and have those slots been as good as you wanted them to be against Sneak and Show or other decks?

Gaudy
08-21-2013, 06:11 PM
Does Grim Lavamancer not counteract your Tarmogoyf plan?
It also seems like you have a lot of sideboard cards dedicated to beating Sneak and Show.
Are you having a lot of problems with the match-up where you play and have those slots been as good as you wanted them to be against Sneak and Show or other decks?

well, Grim Lavamancer some times shrinks Tarmogoyf ( lands, maverik, D&T, Sneak and Show, reanimator, goblins), but agains match ups like delver, Deathblade, Agent, Jund, it doesn't.

for me the most important creature in my deck is Lavamancer, is almost a win card againts many deck (D&T, Goblins, DeathBlade, Agent, Delver, Sliver, Elves), if you can keep it, you even can slow down a bit.

And yes i have many trouble with Sneak and Show decks. I have trouble finding a way to win this match but, after of read here, may be just bridge is enough

Gaudy
08-23-2013, 03:43 PM
there is one thing i haven't seen here, play Burn is "easy", but play it properly is a very difficult thing

for example if your opening hand is something like this
2 land , 1 lavamancer, 1 vexin devil, 1 bolt, 1 riftbolt and 1 chain
many people think, great i have 9 damage point in turn 2 but, few people see that hand and say, great i have 2 land and 5 spell i can play

TableTopMagic
08-24-2013, 07:16 AM
I am here to start a argument. :smile:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144600&d=1376884997

I know color splashes are Taboo, but this could make a G splash worth it.

It kills Leyline of Sanctity, Batterskull, Jitte, ect.. All while still putting pressure on your opponent.

Thoughts anyone?

Dice_Box
08-24-2013, 07:28 AM
Of all I was after was Enchantment hate I would splash white and run Wear//Tear and gain access to combo hate. Still not worth it though in my mind.

DragoFireheart
09-03-2013, 02:10 PM
So what are your thoughts about creatureless burn?

Maybe stuff like Flamebreak and Volcanic Fallout to kill creatures and just pitch the combo match game 1.

Lyle Hopkins
09-04-2013, 05:38 PM
Fantastic Primer, feline! It is great to see Burn receiving some mature discussion on The Source. Also, I am excited to see people talking about Hellspark Elemental. I'm a big advocate for this card and I discussed some of its strengths in the Boros Burn thread I started a little while ago when I was trying to splash white (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25568-Boros-Burn). I have since given up on trying to splash a second colour in burn (Plateaus have been bought and sold) and I am back to my Mono-Red roots.

Just to lightly touch on the concept of multi-coloured Burn lists, while I was testing with Boros, I began to realize that one of Burn's strongest attributes is the virtual card advantage that is generated from not adhering to the Zeitgeist of Legacy Magic. With minimal permanents and few or even zero non-basic lands, Burn ultimately denies any available targets for a large percentage of the cards being played in Legacy. Much of Burn's power comes from its rogue factor, so I think adding Wasteland targets and more creatures contradicts some of the fundamental principals of which the deck is designed around. Furthermore, I believe that there are plenty of excellent sideboard options available to Burn that can help against the match-ups that we are trying to improve by splashing another colour.

Another Burn topic I am interested in is the discussion of Grim Lavamancer vs. X, where in my case, X=Hellspark Elemental. Ultimately, I think the creatures you decide on for your list are dependant on two things: Meta-game, and play style. Grim Lavamancer is an incredibly strong card against creature decks like Maverick and Goblins, but against control and combo it is more desirable to have cards that deal damage the same turn they are played, such as Hellspark Elemental. This touches on the concept of "guaranteed damage", which is discussed by James Heslip in his Squandered Resources article on MTG Salvation. I highly recommend the read if you haven't already (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1317-squandered-resources-burn-and-budget-legacy.html). As far as play style is concerned, if you enjoy controlling the board state a bit, give Grim Lavamancer a try. If you want to be aggressive and wish to have "guaranteed damage" from all of your top decks, then I suggest Hellspark Elemental.

I hope this doesn't deter anyone from testing multi-coloured Burn lists or running Grim Lavamancer; these are just the conclusions I have come to through my own testing and play style, within my own meta-game. Also, if I may be so bold, I would like to suggest the inclusion of James Heslip's article in the primer's "Awesome Links" section. There is some great information on building and playing burn in that article and I feel like it would be beneficial for all Burn players to have a look at it.

Lyle Hopkins
09-04-2013, 06:16 PM
Here is the list I am currently testing:

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


Concerning the main deck, everything is fairly standard. The only card I am not entirely sold on is Barbarian Ring. I feel like it has stopped me from playing Fireblast more often than closing out a game through hate (ex. counter magic or taxing effects). Also, threshold can be impossible against an active Deathrite Shaman. I'm considering cutting it down to one copy, but I'm not completely sure if I even want it in the deck or not.

The sideboard is something I've arrived at recently and have been quite pleased with its performance so far.

tesla
09-04-2013, 08:01 PM
Here is the list I am currently testing:

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


Concerning the main deck, everything is fairly standard. The only card I am not entirely sold on is Barbarian Ring. I feel like it has stopped me from playing Fireblast more often than closing out a game through hate (ex. counter magic or taxing effects). Also, threshold can be impossible against an active Deathrite Shaman. I'm considering cutting it down to one copy, but I'm not completely sure if I even want it in the deck or not.

The sideboard is something I've arrived at recently and have been quite pleased with its performance so far.


Solid list wich you can be very successful with. Don´t cut barbarian ring it´s super good. In lists without lavamancer it´s auto-include.

Lyle Hopkins
09-05-2013, 04:40 AM
Sorry about the deleted post. I didn't intend to do that.


Solid list wich you can be very successful with. Don´t cut barbarian ring it´s super good. In lists without lavamancer it´s auto-include.

Thanks for the reply. After some consideration I've come to the conclusion that the only substantial disadvantage with running Barbarian Ring is the corner case of not being able to cast Fireblast. The other possible downside is having to play a Wasteland target, but that might not be as bad as I had thought. Because of Price of Progress, I usually find opponents wasting their own non-basics instead of yours. I'm going to keep them in the main deck for now.

JPettie
09-05-2013, 02:35 PM
Here is the list I am currently testing:

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


Concerning the main deck, everything is fairly standard. The only card I am not entirely sold on is Barbarian Ring. I feel like it has stopped me from playing Fireblast more often than closing out a game through hate (ex. counter magic or taxing effects). Also, threshold can be impossible against an active Deathrite Shaman. I'm considering cutting it down to one copy, but I'm not completely sure if I even want it in the deck or not.

The sideboard is something I've arrived at recently and have been quite pleased with its performance so far.

I have personally lost a game due to Barbarian Ring being a Wasteland target, so I am pretty bias on playing it and I play the fetch Grim Lavamancer version myself. I do wonder how you deal with Storm going off turn 1, and what in your sideboard comes in against Show and Tell other than Red Elemental Blast. I am curious about your tournament experience and why you chose the sideboard options you have chosen if you could explain them in more detail.

Lyle Hopkins
09-06-2013, 04:35 PM
I have personally lost a game due to Barbarian Ring being a Wasteland target, so I am pretty bias on playing it and I play the fetch Grim Lavamancer version myself. I do wonder how you deal with Storm going off turn 1, and what in your sideboard comes in against Show and Tell other than Red Elemental Blast. I am curious about your tournament experience and why you chose the sideboard options you have chosen if you could explain them in more detail.

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

Smash to Smithereens is mainly for Stoneforge Mystic decks. Stoneblade has been pretty popular, so Smash to Smithereens is boarded in to make sure Batterskull doesn't close out games. Obviously, they also come in against artifact heavy decks like Mud and Affinity, but these decks are not as widely represented as Stoneblade. This card probably presents the most wiggle room of any of my sideboard slots.

Vexing Shusher is for U/W Miracles. I haven't been seeing as much U/W as I have in the past, so I've recently cut them for one more additional Pyrostatic Pillar, Red Elemental Blast, and Surgical Extraction. If Counter/Top gets popular again, Vexing Shusher is a must have, in my opinion.

The reason I am playing Pyrostatic Pillar over Mindbreak Trap is because I haven't found Mindbreak Trap to be that effective against Storm. ANT and TES decks, for instance, run enough cantrips and discard spells to protect themselves against Mindbreak Trap. There may be the occasional game two where you are able to catch a Storm opponent off guard, but once they know you are playing Mindbreak Trap, they will most likely open with a discard spell before going off. Once Pyrostatic Pillar is in play, Storm can't combo until they take care of it, which at the very least buys you some time and some damage (these are the two things you need to beat Storm). Off course Pyrostatic Pillar can be discarded as well, but you're typically not holding it up, waiting for them to go off while they dig for a discard spell. Pyrostatic Pillar also has more utility than Mindbreak Trap. I sideboard it in against Elves, "cantrip cartel" decks, and I've even had success with bringing it in against U/W control. Yes, you will lose if Storm combos off on turn one, but I don't think it's worth dedicating a sideboard slot entirely to solving this problem.

I bring in Red Elemental Blast primarily against blue combo, such as High Tide and Omni-Tell. Concerning Show and Tell, I used to run Ensnaring Bridge, but I feel like this card doesn't address Omni-tell, which seems to be one of the more popular combo decks at the moment and I rather have other cards in my sideboard over Ensnaring Bridge at the moment.

Surgical Extraction comes in against any graveyard strategy deck and usually against combo (ex High Tide and ANT). I ran Faerie Macabre for a long time because they are so great against Reanimator, but with this deck seeing less play, Surgical Extraction is my attempt to help both my graveyard and combo match-ups.

With my sideboarding plan I am ultimately trying to maximize utility, while still address the problem match-ups that Burn will most likely face.

iamajellydonut
09-07-2013, 02:39 AM
Yes, you will lose if Storm combos off on turn one, but I don't think it's worth dedicating a sideboard slot entirely to solving this problem.

You're right. It's totally not an issue if you set yourself up to get shit on by several major archetypes.


The reason I am playing Pyrostatic Pillar over Mindbreak Trap is because I haven't found Mindbreak Trap to be that effective against Storm. ANT and TES decks, for instance, run enough cantrips and discard spells to protect themselves against Mindbreak Trap. There may be the occasional game two where you are able to catch a Storm opponent off guard, but once they know you are playing Mindbreak Trap, they will most likely open with a discard spell before going off. Once Pyrostatic Pillar is in play, Storm can't combo until they take care of it, which at the very least buys you some time and some damage (these are the two things you need to beat Storm). Off course Pyrostatic Pillar can be discarded as well, but you're typically not holding it up, waiting for them to go off while they dig for a discard spell. Pyrostatic Pillar also has more utility than Mindbreak Trap. I sideboard it in against Elves, "cantrip cartel" decks, and I've even had success with bringing it in against U/W control.

I am tired from a 16hr shift and I don't really care that much if you run a shitty deck, but I wanted to dissuade anyone else who might think this is a good idea. Because it's not.

Pyrostatic Pillar used to be the go-to combo-stopper for Extended and made a fair showing in Legacy (idgaf about Vintage) due to the nature of ye olde combo. It used to be that in order to win you would cast a thousand spells in order to cast a thousand more spells so that you could maybe win the game. Do you know how many sub-3cc spells Belcher has to cast in order to kill you? On a good day three? That means Belcher can take as little as six whole damage from your Pyrostatic Pillar. Now, you may be thinking "wow! that's a lot of damage!", but keep in mind that you're now dead. This assumes that you manage to cast your 2cc spell before they combo out. Even ANT has its tricks to get around Pillar.

ANT can play around Pillar or just get rid of it in the first place. Elves can either race or combo-kill anyway. Omni-Show casts the fewest spells out of any of the aforementioned and has the best protection.

Pillar is a relic and you'd do well to stay away. Mindbreak Trap is easily your best bet for general combo hate. Yes, it does have glaring holes and flaws, but Burn in general has faaar more critical and numerous faults which is why Burn is a "budget deck" rather than a "good deck that happens to be cheap".

Lyle Hopkins
09-07-2013, 06:47 AM
You're right. It's totally not an issue if you set yourself up to get shit on by several major archetypes.

I'm not sure I understand the "major archetypes" you are referring too. Concerning the Storm decks seeing play at this moment, ANT seems to be the most popular at SCG Opens this year, distantly followed by TES, and then the occasional Belcher list. Of the three, TES and Belcher are the decks with the best likelihood of being able to combo off on turn one. ANT is seeing more play than both of TES and Belcher combined and Belcher is very much a rogue deck, so I would hardly describe them as "major archetypes". Mindbreak Trap is great against Empty the Warrens, but all of these decks have alternate avenues they can win with, while playing around Mindbreak Trap; even Belcher can cast one or two spells a turn and eventually Belch you.


ANT can play around Pillar or just get rid of it in the first place. Elves can either race or combo-kill anyway. Omni-Show casts the fewest spells out of any of the aforementioned and has the best protection.

I've been testing against ANT a fair amount recently and I have to disagree with you. I don't see how they can play around Pyrostatic Pillar once it is in play. Furthermore, any damage generated from Pyrostatic Pillar makes it far more difficult for Ad Nauseam to function properly. It may be anecdotal, but the ANT player in my test group has a far easier time dealing with Mindbreak Trap than Pyrostatic Pillar. Similarly, once it is in play, Pyrostatic Pillar stops Elves from going off as well. Concerning Omni-Tell, I would sideboard in Red Elemental Blast over Pyrostatic Pillar.


Pillar is a relic and you'd do well to stay away. Mindbreak Trap is easily your best bet for general combo hate. Yes, it does have glaring holes and flaws, but Burn in general has faaar more critical and numerous faults which is why Burn is a "budget deck" rather than a "good deck that happens to be cheap".

I'm not going to try and argue that Burn is a tier one deck, but it is a viable Legacy list that does put up results, and in my opinion, it is positioned quite well at the moment. I'm not sure if your long work day made you irritable, but the tone of your post is not appreciated.

DragoFireheart
09-13-2013, 12:43 PM
I'm not going to try and argue that Burn is a tier one deck, but it is a viable Legacy list that does put up results, and in my opinion, it is positioned quite well at the moment. I'm not sure if your long work day made you irritable, but the tone of your post is not appreciated.

Burn may not be a Tier 1 deck, but it's a great meta-deck. I love the butthurt over people losing with their $2,000 to a $100 deck.

If you see a lot of decks that are soft to Burn (BUG, Jund), Burn can work quite well. More so if you tune it to be creature-less.

Lyle Hopkins
09-14-2013, 05:28 PM
So what are your thoughts about creatureless burn?

Maybe stuff like Flamebreak and Volcanic Fallout to kill creatures and just pitch the combo match game 1.

I feel like being able to recur damage is important. Also, Goblin Guide is just too good not to run, in my opinion. It's probably worth testing, but I'm not sure if Flamebreak or Volcanic Fallout are the best replacements. I'll check it out though.

TableTopMagic
09-15-2013, 11:03 PM
Looks like Burn is in the number one seat at the SCG Atlanta. Very interesting take on burn. I am guessing his sideboard is partially built for show and tell.

Burn
Doug Honeycutt

Creatures (15)

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
2 Young Pyromancer

Lands (19)

19 Mountain

Spells (26)

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
3 Angel of Despair
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Detention Sphere
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens

LeoCop 90
09-15-2013, 11:44 PM
I was seeing Doug playing on the stream, unfortunately he lost in semifinal against omnitell. Anyway, his list is full of suboptimal card choices. We all know that cards like hellspark elemental and keldon marauders are not so good in today's metagame mainly because of deathrite shaman that can gain life from them in the graveyard. Moreover, young pyromancers are not a card to be played in burn because they are just too slow, any other burn spell is preferable... and it strikes that he plays the pyromancers AND a lot of other creatures, so there are less spells to feed the pyromancer ability. Then again, he is playing grim lavamancers without any fetchland, and in conjunction with hellspark elemental that also strikes with it.
In sideboard , pyrostatic pillar is not a good choice in my opinion.

Anyway, even if his list is a budget or very debatable one, he reached the semifinals so a lot of compliments to him.

jlately
09-16-2013, 09:33 AM
I was seeing Doug playing on the stream, unfortunately he lost in semifinal against omnitell. Anyway, his list is full of suboptimal card choices. We all know that cards like hellspark elemental and keldon marauders are not so good in today's metagame mainly because of deathrite shaman that can gain life from them in the graveyard. Moreover, young pyromancers are not a card to be played in burn because they are just too slow, any other burn spell is preferable... and it strikes that he plays the pyromancers AND a lot of other creatures, so there are less spells to feed the pyromancer ability. Then again, he is playing grim lavamancers without any fetchland, and in conjunction with hellspark elemental that also strikes with it.
In sideboard , pyrostatic pillar is not a good choice in my opinion.

Anyway, even if his list is a budget or very debatable one, he reached the semifinals so a lot of compliments to him.

I've been building a burn deck lately, and I am leaning towards one of the more creature heavy builds. One thing that I don't understand is why Deathrite Shaman is such a threat for creature heavy builds. I understand that it can be used to gain life, but don't we have enough ways to kill it (especially with Grim Lavamancer)? It seems to be a pretty fragile creature against us (unless they have a Mother of Runes of course). I'm pretty new to the format so what am I missing?

feline
09-16-2013, 10:43 AM
Well it's been about 6 months since Burn placed in the top 16 at the Open Series, and now we have not 1, but 2 finishes for burn advocates everywhere with these 3rd & 16th place finishes, both at SCG Atlanta on September 15th:

3rd place - Doug Honeycutt - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59114
16th place - Jeremy Maciolek - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59131

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 12:21 PM
Has anyone tested Young Pyromancer in burn?

He seem's like he'd be a natural fit.

Koby
09-16-2013, 12:23 PM
Has anyone tested Young Pyromancer in burn?

He seem's like he'd be a natural fit.

The 3rd place finish from SCG Atlanta ran two copies, so I'd say that it worked out very well for him.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 03:29 PM
The list here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59114) seems more like a RDW deck and less a Burn deck. I feel like having less creatures would give you more mileage with your Young Pyromancers. If you must run creatures in burn, Guides, Lavamancers, and Youngs seem like the best choice. Too many creatures dilutes your instant/sorcery base. On the other hand, having too few relevant creatures means your opponents need less removal.

Taking another look at the list, he's only using 2 Chains. That seems like a mistake. I'd cut some sparks and marauders to make room for more burn spells. The best creatures base seems like:

3 Lavamancers
4 Guides
2-3 Pyromancers

Lyle Hopkins
09-16-2013, 03:38 PM
Brewing!

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
20 Mountain


I wrote off Young Pyromancer when I first saw the card, but I've been testing this list since I saw Honeycutt's 3rd place finish and it has been pretty fun so far. I'm going to run it through the gauntlet in my play group, maybe bring it to a tournament next week if I feel like it can hang, and I'll let ya'll know how I feel about it down the road.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 03:50 PM
Brewing!

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
20 Mountain


I wrote off Young Pyromancer when I first saw the card, but I've been testing this list since I saw Honeycutt's 3rd place finish and it has been pretty fun so far. I'm going to run it through the gauntlet in my play group, maybe bring it to a tournament next week if I feel like it can hang, and I'll let ya'll know how I feel about it down the road.

I feel like 4 may be too many, but let me know how they test and whether you ever felt like your hand was clogged with them.

L0cke
09-16-2013, 04:34 PM
A friend of mine and I talked to Doug Honeycutt at the open yesterday and asked him about his deck choices. He said someone was supposed to loan him fetches and the last two chain lightnings, but they fell through and Young Pyromancer was the first thing he could find to stick in the deck half an hour before the open started.

nedleeds
09-16-2013, 05:08 PM
Sounds about like how a burn deck should be built. Ask around for cards you can't afford, make budget subs. Lava Spike people for 9 rounds.

Lyle Hopkins
09-16-2013, 06:45 PM
A friend of mine and I talked to Doug Honeycutt at the open yesterday and asked him about his deck choices. He said someone was supposed to loan him fetches and the last two chain lightnings, but they fell through and Young Pyromancer was the first thing he could find to stick in the deck half an hour before the open started.

I think the the most important thing that can be taken away from SCG Atlanta isn't necessarily the specific deck lists, but the fact that Burn is positioned fairly well against the current meta-game.

Thanks for the information on Honeycutt's build though.

L0cke
09-16-2013, 07:33 PM
I think the the most important thing that can be taken away from SCG Atlanta isn't necessarily the specific deck lists, but the fact that Burn is positioned fairly well against the current meta-game.

Thanks for the information on Honeycutt's build though.

I don't think Burn is well positioned, as Price of Progress is well positioned. I didn't see a single Spell Snare all day, and despite the fear of the Moons being in people, they still ran mostly non-basics.

LeoCop 90
09-16-2013, 07:55 PM
I've been building a burn deck lately, and I am leaning towards one of the more creature heavy builds. One thing that I don't understand is why Deathrite Shaman is such a threat for creature heavy builds. I understand that it can be used to gain life, but don't we have enough ways to kill it (especially with Grim Lavamancer)? It seems to be a pretty fragile creature against us (unless they have a Mother of Runes of course). I'm pretty new to the format so what am I missing?

When you play burn, you don't want to waste burn spells on opposing creatures unless it is absolutely necessary (for example you should always burn a creature attacking with an equipped umezawa's jitte). Deathrite shaman can most of the times be completely ignored because he won't have creatures to hit in graveyards; instead, if you are playing keldon marauders and hellspark elemental you will be forced to burn him to prevent lifegain... and if you burn him, is just like the opponent has gained three life because you wasted a bolt. Yes you can burn him with lavamancer , but this is not always the case.... so hellspark and marauders are not optimal choices in my opinion.

For all the ones saying that young pyromancer is a natural fit for a burn deck .... WHAT ? Creatures must be very aggressive to be included in burn, and mostly important they must guarantee damage for the opponent. Goblin guide is played mostly because of haste that almost always deals two damages to the opponent. The only exception to this rule is grim lavamancer because he is an effective mana sink.
Young pyromancer has none of this qualities, if you play him turn two you just delayed your win by a full turn. He is a midrange card (good for U/R delver or grixis delver) not an aggro card. He is fantastic in the right deck , but the right deck is not burn.... please don't play him here.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 09:02 PM
For all the ones saying that young pyromancer is a natural fit for a burn deck .... WHAT ? Creatures must be very aggressive to be included in burn, and mostly important they must guarantee damage for the opponent. Goblin guide is played mostly because of haste that almost always deals two damages to the opponent. The only exception to this rule is grim lavamancer because he is an effective mana sink.
Young pyromancer has none of this qualities, if you play him turn two you just delayed your win by a full turn. He is a midrange card (good for U/R delver or grixis delver) not an aggro card. He is fantastic in the right deck , but the right deck is not burn.... please don't play him here.

I disagree. We sometimes use Sulfuric Vortex and that also "delays you by a turn". Thing is, sometimes burn won't kill in time. Sometimes, we might need something else to help guarantee those last points of damage.

Course, he makes a terrible top deck.

Bed Decks Palyer
09-16-2013, 09:38 PM
1 Bolt (17)
2 Pyromancer (17)
3 Double Burn, swing (5, dead if Fireblast before swing)


:really:
Turn 3 is beyond my understanding. Tokens don't have haste.

LeoCop 90
09-16-2013, 09:54 PM
Yes, we do delay our win sometimes to play cards like sulfuric vortex and grim lavamancer. Anyway i think you can figure out yourself that they both are miles better than young pyromancer.... sulfuric vortex prevents lifegain for all the match and deals two damage every turn, grim lavamancer can burn directly the opponent or also get rid of problematic creatures.

Pyromancer doesn't do any of these things... the crucial point is that , even if unaswered, he doesn't guarantee any damage because him and the tokens can just get blocked. Moreover, he is decent only if played on turn two, being the worst topdeck in the world as you said. If he had haste, or the tokens have haste, it might have been worth testing. But this is not the case.

paeng4983
09-16-2013, 11:10 PM
For me, Young Pyromancer doesn't suit the playing style of this deck. It fits well with tempo decks.

DragoFireheart
09-17-2013, 01:18 PM
:really:
Turn 3 is beyond my understanding. Tokens don't have haste.

Yeah for some reason I thought they did. Fix'd my post.

Valtrix
09-20-2013, 06:05 PM
So in general does burn suffer more from being too slow, or from running out of cards more often? If the latter is the case, some slower but more damage per card (but perhaps more expensive) might be valuable, and if the former lower CC cards would be better. I haven't really played it much, but I like making fun burn/sligh lists for fun, so this would give me a little bit more perspective.

Also, has anybody tested Boros Reckoner? It's almost certain that he's too costly/slow (and a creature), although despite that he is still a very interesting to me, so I was curious if anybody did try him.

Firstborn
09-22-2013, 07:34 AM
So in general does burn suffer more from being too slow, or from running out of cards more often? If the latter is the case, some slower but more damage per card (but perhaps more expensive) might be valuable, and if the former lower CC cards would be better. I haven't really played it much, but I like making fun burn/sligh lists for fun, so this would give me a little bit more perspective.

I think it can be either too slow or running out of cards, or both. Burn tends to goldfish on turn 4 very consistently (sometimes turn 3) but that can be a turn too slow against combo, which is why these matchups are so tough. Running out of gas is another issue and too often it feels as if the deck goes into topdeck mode. Grim Lavamancers can help with consistency and to give you that final 2-4 points you need to get over the line.

In fact, I have a related question: I noted Dough Honeycutt's burn deck which placed well at a recent SCG Open was running Lavamancers without fetches, which seems unusual. I'm testing a fetchless version at the moment in which Lavamancers work fairly well with Vexing Devils but wondered if anyone had any additional comments?


Also, has anybody tested Boros Reckoner? It's almost certain that he's too costly/slow (and a creature), although despite that he is still a very interesting to me, so I was curious if anybody did try him.

Just my opinion but it looks costly and slow to me, and if you're considering 3CMC cards, there are probably better options.

L0cke
09-22-2013, 01:08 PM
In fact, I have a related question: I noted Dough Honeycutt's burn deck which placed well at a recent SCG Open was running Lavamancers without fetches, which seems unusual. I'm testing a fetchless version at the moment in which Lavamancers work fairly well with Vexing Devils but wondered if anyone had any additional comments?

Your question was answered a whole half a page above where you posted it.


A friend of mine and I talked to Doug Honeycutt at the open yesterday and asked him about his deck choices. He said someone was supposed to loan him fetches and the last two chain lightnings, but they fell through and Young Pyromancer was the first thing he could find to stick in the deck half an hour before the open started.

Valtrix
09-22-2013, 02:38 PM
In fact, I have a related question: I noted Dough Honeycutt's burn deck which placed well at a recent SCG Open was running Lavamancers without fetches, which seems unusual. I'm testing a fetchless version at the moment in which Lavamancers work fairly well with Vexing Devils but wondered if anyone had any additional comments?

I really like Vexing Devil. While the "choice" sometimes seem like it could be bad, I look at it this way: Would you play a 4/3 for :r: with no drawback, or would you play a 4 damage to target player for :r:? For me the answer is yes in both accounts, so I don't really think it should matter which they choose since both are very good. The fact that it's a creature is "a drawback," but lists are already running a few creatures generally (goblin guide, lavamancer), so I think that argument is kind of pointless since they will likely have a target for removal anyway. If you're worried about devil not breaking through blockers, it's worth nothing that he will trade with almost everything, and if they leave a blocker up that means you've bought yourself at least one more turn to draw another burn spell to close out the game anyway.

Dice_Box
09-22-2013, 02:52 PM
I find Devil to be great in your opener, but at turn four when your hand is near on empty and all you want is a bolt it's the last thing you want to see. Also, we have better openers.

Think about it this way. Would you pay R for a 4/3 creature that does not help you win the game once the other guy has a board presence? I am going to put into the grave in my first 3 turns at lest an Instant, Sorcery and a land. Add in one Deathrite I had to remove and suddenly all that thing can do is die to a Gofy. The card looks cute but it's a trap.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

TableTopMagic
09-22-2013, 04:00 PM
Hey this is a build I am letting a friend use for a upcoming SCG. Any thought or feelings you want to share go for it.

//Creature (8)
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vexing Devil

//Enchantment (3)
3 Sulfuric Vortex

//Instant (12)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

//Sorcery (16)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

//Land (21)
3 Arid Mesa
15 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn


SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap (Turn one Kills)
SB: 3 Searing Blaze (Super Aggro match for removal while keeping pressure on the board)
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens (Stoneblade/Affinity)
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction (Yep)
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout (Delver matchups, can be countered)

Valtrix
09-22-2013, 04:01 PM
Think about it this way. Would you pay R for a 4/3 creature that does not help you win the game once the other guy has a board presence?

What are you considering a board presence? I think your statement is just incorrect, and I tried to address this in my last post already. In fact, I would say that this statement applies to Goblin Guide as well, a card that many consider core to burn at this point. (If you advocate for not running guide, well I can understand, but that's a separate argument entirely.) As I said before, if Devil was just a 4/3 without any drawbacks, I would still play it, because that's just insane efficiency.

But, let's consider some of the bad scenarios. First, you're trying to outrace the enemy. If they leave a blocker for devil, this is still fine for you. Devil will trade with almost every creature in the format (except a strong tarmogoyf) right now, so it's still at least a 1-for-1. But in leaving a blocker up you've bought yourself at least another turn, which is another turn to draw that burn spell to close out the game. Yes, you won't draw that spell every time, but this is probably the worst case scenario, which I think is actually rather rare. Second, they have removal. This is a fair argument, since removal sucks. However, since you're liking running at least 8 other creatures (lavamancer, goblin guide, hellspark elemental maybe), chances are they'll have another target for their removal anyway, so I wouldn't be so concerned about this. Otherwise Devil is a 4/3 they can't handle, so it turns into a 4 damage spell for :r:. This seems very strong to me, and in particular will help increase your clock against decks that don't want to win with the combat step.

wooboy11
09-22-2013, 08:17 PM
What are you considering a board presence? I think your statement is just incorrect, and I tried to address this in my last post already. In fact, I would say that this statement applies to Goblin Guide as well, a card that many consider core to burn at this point. (If you advocate for not running guide, well I can understand, but that's a separate argument entirely.) As I said before, if Devil was just a 4/3 without any drawbacks, I would still play it, because that's just insane efficiency.

But, let's consider some of the bad scenarios. First, you're trying to outrace the enemy. If they leave a blocker for devil, this is still fine for you. Devil will trade with almost every creature in the format (except a strong tarmogoyf) right now, so it's still at least a 1-for-1. But in leaving a blocker up you've bought yourself at least another turn, which is another turn to draw that burn spell to close out the game. Yes, you won't draw that spell every time, but this is probably the worst case scenario, which I think is actually rather rare. Second, they have removal. This is a fair argument, since removal sucks. However, since you're liking running at least 8 other creatures (lavamancer, goblin guide, hellspark elemental maybe), chances are they'll have another target for their removal anyway, so I wouldn't be so concerned about this. Otherwise Devil is a 4/3 they can't handle, so it turns into a 4 damage spell for :r:. This seems very strong to me, and in particular will help increase your clock against decks that don't want to win with the combat step.

Have you played vexing devil against a good opponent? Most of the times it won't affect the game, since the opponent will just choose whatever he can deal with more easily: 4 damage or a 4/3. If in both cases it is bad for him, well then, his deck is probably no match for Burn anyways.

Dice_Box
09-22-2013, 08:52 PM
What are you considering a board presence?One turn 2 Goyf.


I think your statement is just incorrect, and I tried to address this in my last post already. In fact, I would say that this statement applies to Goblin Guide as well, a card that many consider core to burn at this point. (If you advocate for not running guide, well I can understand, but that's a separate argument entirely.) As I said before, if Devil was just a 4/3 without any drawbacks, I would still play it, because that's just insane efficiency.Funny thing is Guide has this wonderful thing called Haste. So you can drop, hit with him and move on. Even if you only connect once he is gold. Fact is he is the best opening play we have unless we are on the draw. A 4/3 with no drawbacks is a lie in this deck. Because the "No drawbacks" is a drawback. You can not do a dam thing with him turn 3 or 4. Guide you can use, he will hit the table on the turn Combo is hitting Critical mass and they will just shrug.


But, let's consider some of the bad scenarios. First, you're trying to outrace the enemy. If they leave a blocker for devil, this is still fine for you. Devil will trade with almost every creature in the format (except a strong tarmogoyf) right now, so it's still at least a 1-for-1. But in leaving a blocker up you've bought yourself at least another turn, which is another turn to draw that burn spell to close out the game. Yes, you won't draw that spell every time, but this is probably the worst case scenario, which I think is actually rather rare.Cool, you have a blocker, how does this help you? Delay a turn? Cool. Hope you draw something next turn? Ok too I guess. The alternative, you just drew the spell you needed and finished the game that turn. If you needed to stop something you could have thrown that spell AT a creature and KILLED it. Know what saves you more that a 4/3 blocker? A dead opponent or a removed creature.


Second, they have removal. This is a fair argument, since removal sucks. However, since you're liking running at least 8 other creatures (lavamancer, goblin guide, hellspark elemental maybe), chances are they'll have another target for their removal anyway, so I wouldn't be so concerned about this. Otherwise Devil is a 4/3 they can't handle, so it turns into a 4 damage spell for :r:. This seems very strong to me, and in particular will help increase your clock against decks that don't want to win with the combat step.Removal is not a reason in my mind to run or not run something. Everything dies to removal. But in this case you are actually missing something. Our main advantage is in "Virtual card advantage". That means we do not present the normal targets that someone would expect and remove a level of interaction that they would normally have. Thus they are drawing dead cards. Offer them a target, they will take it, do not offer them that target, they draw dead and we gain a card advantage.

A possible 4/3 or four damage for R or a burn spell I can direct at a target of my choosing for the same cost? I am going to go with the option that limits his choices and maximises mine.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2013, 11:03 PM
I've tested Devil and he's terrible. When you want a 4/3, you get 4 damage. When you want 4 damage, you get a 4/3 that's useless.

Valtrix
09-23-2013, 12:55 AM
Have you played vexing devil against a good opponent? Most of the times it won't affect the game, since the opponent will just choose whatever he can deal with more easily: 4 damage or a 4/3. If in both cases it is bad for him, well then, his deck is probably no match for Burn anyways.


I've tested Devil and he's terrible. When you want a 4/3, you get 4 damage. When you want 4 damage, you get a 4/3 that's useless.

When is 4 damage for one mana ever bad in burn? By this logic many of the cards in burn shouldn't even be played.

So it seems to me the really only bad scenario is when Vexing Devil becomes a 4/3.

Scenario 1:They take 4 damage.
This is always good in a burn(/sligh) deck.

Scenario 2: They can't actually deal with a 4/3.
This scenario will never actually happen, since an unanswered devil will represent more than 4 damage.

Scenario 3: They have removal
Sure, they answer your devil. This generally sucks, but since you're running other creatures they will probably have another target for removal anyway. Most people aren't using this argument to not run other creatures.

Scenario 4: They have a blocker
Devil trades with almost everything in the format. First, if the creature is small (basically, if the creature is not goyf, or a hexproof mongoose) you can burn it and get devil in for 4 damage. If you're up against goyf, there is a good chance that you can still trade with it since the game will be very short. Otherwise if they have to leave a blocker to just trade with devil, then chances are they won't be able to win any race with you anyway.

Scenario 5: You topdeck devil when your opponent will kill you next turn, and you really needed a burn spell.
This seems like one of the worst scenarios, you're up against a fast deck (probably combo) and need to get in damage ASAP. Guide is nice because of haste, but really the haste only matters if your opponent kills you next turn in this scenario. That means you need to topdeck a devil on the exact turn your opponent is going to end the game, since otherwise you could have played it during a previous turn. This seems like a really edge case to me though, since the odds of this are fairly low. More often than not you will have your devil in hand before they can go off next turn. So in fact in this situation devil is 4 damage for :r:, effectively making you even faster against the fast decks you face.

Certainly scenarios 3-5 are not optimal, but honestly none of the scenarios really seem all that detrimental to me, but perhaps that's not true. Considering the efficiency of devil, both in damage per card and damage per mana, I think the "risk" of running him seems very small.

Dice_Box
09-23-2013, 01:47 AM
When is 4 damage for one mana ever bad in burn? By this logic many of the cards in burn shouldn't even be played.4 Damage for one red is bad when you offer the CHOICE and they take it. Because it says "Hey, here is an option, make what choice favors you." You drop that card in front of my Elf deck and I promise you it will do NOTHING. Not a thing. I will combo off in your face while you are wishing you had something to stop me.

Also I like how you are running through your own list of Scenarios. Each really points out how bad the card is, just your angle of looking at it is different from the rest of us. But be my guest, run the damn thing, then come back and tell us all about how wrong we are after it saves you once or twice. Because it will save you, and you will remember those moments. But its going to hurt you far more than it will save you but you will block out those moments because you WANT it to be good. In the end though, everything that card does, another card does better. You want Creatures that need to be dealt with on mass? Pyro. You want damage dealt on target? Burn spells. You want to keep your Virtual card advantage? Don't run needless targets for their spells to hit. Want to win games? Don't give choices to the other player and don't run cards that are a dead draw turn 3/4.

HammafistRoob
09-23-2013, 03:19 AM
Vexing Devil is the shit. It's hilarious that the only argument against him is that he gives your opponent the choice. BOTH CHOICES ARE BAD FOR THEM. I can tell half the people posting against him don't play burn in any format. Elves against Burn? How the F do you plan on comboing with no elves in play sir?

The virtual CA argument makes no sense if you plan on running Guide and Lavaman, giving your opposition ample targets for their removal anyway. We gain virtual CA by playing less lands.

Vexing Devil is a bad topdeck? So are lands, should we be cutting all of our mountains too? Seriously if you don't even play burn why bother trying to make senseless arguments?

Dice_Box
09-23-2013, 06:56 AM
Vexing Devil is the shit. It's hilarious that the only argument against him is that he gives your opponent the choice. BOTH CHOICES ARE BAD FOR THEM. I can tell half the people posting against him don't play burn in any format. Elves against Burn? How the F do you plan on comboing with no elves in play sir?I can play more elves than you can burn. I have a draw engine. Anyway, if you think the card is so good, go run it. Be my guest. There is a reason why its not run in the decks you see popping up at GP's and what not. Goyf can handle it, Lighting bolt can handle it, Discard will rip your hand apart. You need good top decks when versing BUG and RUG as both can deal with it with ease. Does not bode strongly for the card. Combo's don't care about it so who does it really help you against? As far as I can tell it only helps you win games that you are set to win anyway without an issue. Why run a WIN MORE card? Because its seems to only help you in matchups that you are set to win anyway.


The virtual CA argument makes no sense if you plan on running Guide and Lavaman, giving your opposition ample targets for their removal anyway. We gain virtual CA by playing less lands.8 targets is a lot less than 12. Also both of other cards offer something that Devil does not, be that speed or repeatable directed damage.


Vexing Devil is a bad topdeck? So are lands, should we be cutting all of our mountains too?This is an argument of despration if ever I have seen one. Yea lands are a painful topdeck. Do me a favor and test a landless burn deck and tell me how you go.


Seriously if you don't even play burn why bother trying to make senseless arguments?Where have I said I do not play burn? I think if you look back at the last few pages you will see this is the deck I built second after Goblins. I own this deck, I play this deck, I like this deck. I am not making senseless arguments, afterall I am not the one suggesting running the deck without land. I am just suggesting running the deck without one card that offers no true advantage to the deck.

But do whatever you like. Got a mate that plays burn with Fork and Thunderous Wrath. You can tell him till the cows come home that its not the smartest idea but he will respond that 10 damage for 3 land is the bomb. I agree, its a great payout, but really it's not practical. Like a 1 drop 4/3 thats easy to handle and slows down your game plan.

Now if you where to go the full RDW's route where the idea is to play powerful creatures and burn a path though for damage, then I would say run him. In that style deck he is everything you are saying he is. But if you're playing burn, where the idea is to be as uninteractive as you can be while killing off the other guy with a mass of redundant spells, this guy offers nothing but a decrease in both control and speed.

LeoCop 90
09-23-2013, 07:06 AM
This discussion about Vexing Devil is starting to get boring. Some people say it's bad because it gives your opponent a choice, other say it's good because anyway you have 4 damage for 1 mana or a 4/3 for one mana.

I am not a fan of the card, but while it's true that giving your opponent choices is bad, this card is not like browbeat. You are only investing one mana in devil and if he is in your opening hand he will a lot of times result in 4 damages for one and can lead to very explosive starts. I agree with who says that the "can be removed" argument is pointless because anyway we are running other targets for removal.

That said, it's impossible to ignore the downsides of devil. He is worse than goblin guide because he doesn't have haste so sometimes he will be killed or chumpblocked without dealing any damage (also guide sometimes will do no damage, but less frequently). Someone said that if chumpblocked he will at least trade with almost every creature, but this is bad because burn doesn't want to trade cards: we need to get damages from our cards, and the longer the game goes the worse it is for us since we have neither card advantage nor a strong board presence.
He is also worse than Grim Lavamancer, although the comparison is close here. In fact they both suffer from summoning sickness and can be killed before they do anything.... but grim lavamancer can skip combat phase so he can't be chumpblocked.

Goblin Guide,Grim Lavamancer and Vexing Devil are all bad topdecks, just guide is a bit better because of haste (although every clever opponent will leave a creature on defense).

In the end, to me the decision is between running devil or lavamancer. Do you want more explosive starts? run devil. Do you want a bit more consistency? run lavamancer.
I will always vote for consistency but this is burn and i won't blame who wants to run the devil.

Justin
09-23-2013, 10:35 AM
To me, the card that Vexing Devil compares most to is not a creature at all. I see Vexing Devil as sort of the inverse of Thunderous Wrath. Wrath will usually deal zero damage if it starts in your opening hand, but it's five damage for one mana if you draw it later. By contrast, Devil will usually do four damage for one mana if you draw it early, but it's almost always a useless topdeck that will deal no damage if you cast it late. How often have you actually done damage to an opponent with a Vexing Devil by turning it sideways as a creature? I don't think this ever happened with me when I tested it. If my opponent chose not to have me sacrifice it, he always had an answer for it. I think there are too many better red options that I don't like playing Vexing Devil.

JPettie
09-23-2013, 11:40 AM
This discussion about Vexing Devil is starting to get boring. Some people say it's bad because it gives your opponent a choice, other say it's good because anyway you have 4 damage for 1 mana or a 4/3 for one mana.

I am not a fan of the card, but while it's true that giving your opponent choices is bad, this card is not like browbeat. You are only investing one mana in devil and if he is in your opening hand he will a lot of times result in 4 damages for one and can lead to very explosive starts. I agree with who says that the "can be removed" argument is pointless because anyway we are running other targets for removal.

That said, it's impossible to ignore the downsides of devil. He is worse than goblin guide because he doesn't have haste so sometimes he will be killed or chumpblocked without dealing any damage (also guide sometimes will do no damage, but less frequently). Someone said that if chumpblocked he will at least trade with almost every creature, but this is bad because burn doesn't want to trade cards: we need to get damages from our cards, and the longer the game goes the worse it is for us since we have neither card advantage nor a strong board presence.
He is also worse than Grim Lavamancer, although the comparison is close here. In fact they both suffer from summoning sickness and can be killed before they do anything.... but grim lavamancer can skip combat phase so he can't be chumpblocked.

Goblin Guide,Grim Lavamancer and Vexing Devil are all bad topdecks, just guide is a bit better because of haste (although every clever opponent will leave a creature on defense).

In the end, to me the decision is between running devil or lavamancer. Do you want more explosive starts? run devil. Do you want a bit more consistency? run lavamancer.
I will always vote for consistency but this is burn and i won't blame who wants to run the devil.

I agree with Leo about the argument about vexing getting out of hand and being extremely boring. It is very simple to me why I don't run Vexing Devil, and the only deck I play is Burn, which I have been playing for the past year. Here are my three simple reasons not to run him:

1. What am I replacing to run him?
4 Sulfuric Vortex? - Anti-Life Gain
4 Grim Lavamancer - Consistent damage/board control (beats elves)
4 Goblin Guide - Haste 2/2 for 1, shows us their next draw (sometimes gives land - more Price of Progress?) Usually does 4 Damage (literally beats whole strategies that don't have creature hate when it does 6)
4 Flame Rift - My favorite card in the deck, the card that makes our curve work, a "virtual" guaranteed 4 Damage.
4 Lava Spike - Lava Spike is a better Vexing.
? - Nothing seems worse than Devil, and Devil doesn't seem better than any of our other options..

2. Life-Gain
When your devil is another target for Ooze, and Deathrite (which is everywhere now - and the reason I only run 8 creatures), also boosts a tarmogofy. Going from 8 - 12 creatures creates advantages for the life-gain hate bear creatures that a 2 life difference could mean we lose the game.

3. Horrible top-deck (I shouldn't even have to explain this)

As a little bonus, if we are blocking a creature, we are losing. We can't profitably block most of the threats we are worried about, try having vexing on a board where you are facing down a Batterskull, go ahead and block it, when you'd rather have something like a grim to kill itself and prevent life gain, or even a desperate Fireblast in your hand. We should be killing the opponent before they kill us, I don't see where blocking is going to be profitable, if we are at that stage in the game where we are worried about our life total, we usually are dead in the water.

As for the comment about top-decking a land being bad, that is a horrible joke, I don't know what possessed you to even consider that in comparison to anything viable at all. Although, that being said, I do run fetches and the alternate help of clearing 2 lands out of your deck over one by running fetches making our top-decks even more consistent has been a life safer in terms of math.

I want to suggest that the thread talk about current meta and what sideboard choices should be the best, or how to sideboard with burn, over all the time I've been playing the deck, the hardest part for me has been a consistent sideboard plan and what to worry about and not worry about when it comes to that. Maybe we should highlight the most problematic matches and what our best options are. I think all of these would be a much better suited way of using our time as a group that all love to play burn. Why should we endlessly fight over main deck choices, in the end, you make your own choice based on experience, so go get the experience and show us facts, not just opinions about Vexing Devil.

LeoCop 90
09-23-2013, 12:04 PM
An issue for me is the number of main deck lands. I am running the version with fetches and lavamancer. I keep repeating myself that 21 is the right/most consistent number to hit three lands each game (i also run sulfuric vortex main and ensnaring bridge in sideboard), but i seem to flood more often than i should. my 21st land is barbarian ring.

What are your opinions about this ?

JPettie
09-23-2013, 12:23 PM
An issue for me is the number of main deck lands. I am running the version with fetches and lavamancer. I keep repeating myself that 21 is the right/most consistent number to hit three lands each game (i also run sulfuric vortex main and ensnaring bridge in sideboard), but i seem to flood more often than i should. my 21st land is barbarian ring.

What are your opinions about this ?

I actually run 20 lands (no Barbarian Ring).
12 Fetches
8 Mountains
I just went to 20 one day because I felt like I was flooding sometimes and haven't had a problem since, I did do the math and found that the difference between 21 and 20 really is an infinitesimal number.

I run 4 main board Sulfuric Vortex and have some number of Ensnaring in the side most times and never really have a problem casting them, usually Ensnaring comes off their Show and Tell though. I would just suggest testing 20 and seeing how you feel about it. I am really against Barbarian Ring for a bunch of reasons that I don't really need to talk about because it is my personal opinion mostly, although I have had an experience of Barbarian Ring being Waste'd and losing a game because of it in my earlier days of playing the deck. I can't stress enough how much choices should be of experience base, and not just opinion, the thought or idea of it should be the start, and then experience, and then presentation. It is scientific method, no matter how corny that is.

What does everyone think the best way to deal with Show and Tell decks should be, sideboard-wise;

I am in between Ensnaring Bridge, and Blasts
something like
3 Ensnaring Bridge (or) 4 Red Elemental Blast (to just counter it, maybe some number of Pithing Needle for the Sneak variants)

Sometimes I find Ensnaring just doesn't work, I think the problem is just not enough hate, but I could be wrong.

Justin
09-23-2013, 03:34 PM
I just wanted to say one last thing about Vexing Devil. I apologize in advance to those who find this discussion boring :) You need to ask yourself what the expected utility of the spell is if it resolves. For a bolt spell, your expected utility is 3, because it will always do three damage. What about Vexing Devil? It will do four damage sometimes and zero others (I suppose it could also do 8, 12, etc. if it becomes an ongoing attacker, but I've found that this very rarely ever happens). Vexing Devil will need to do damage for you at least three times out of four in order for it to have the expected utility to be worth playing. If it does exactly 4 damage 75% of the time, that gives you an expected utility of 4*3/4 = 3 (same as a bolt spell). Of course, as JPettie notes, your opponent can turn a dead Devil into life gain for themselves if he is running DRS or Scavenging Ooze, so it will be a little lower. If you draw two Devils during a game and one does four damage to the opponent, but the second does nothing, you've done four damage with two cards, whereas you do six damage with a bolt spell. So the only way to really know if Vexing Devil is worth playing is to test it a lot and record the percentage of times that it successfully deals damage for you. If this percentage is less than 75%, it is a bad card and not worth running.

Valtrix
09-23-2013, 03:42 PM
This discussion about Vexing Devil is starting to get boring. Some people say it's bad because it gives your opponent a choice, other say it's good because anyway you have 4 damage for 1 mana or a 4/3 for one mana.


I agree with Leo about the argument about vexing getting out of hand and being extremely boring. It is very simple to me why I don't run Vexing Devil, and the only deck I play is Burn, which I have been playing for the past year. Here are my three simple reasons not to run him:


Why should we endlessly fight over main deck choices, in the end, you make your own choice based on experience, so go get the experience and show us facts, not just opinions about Vexing Devil.

I must caution you guys to not take this attitude when discussing cards and decks; you act like a conversation lasting less than a page is already too long. The point of the thread is to discuss things, and so when people have things to discuss they should do so. I agree that some of the arguments presented were somewhat lackluster, but by no means was the discussion "getting out of hand" or "boring" (and by boring I'm assuming you mean pointless because it's an issue that doesn't need to be talked about). When I brought up the subject of vexing devil I considered the points to which I thought he would be useful, and so I appreciate the (thoughtful) responses about the card. I think now that he's better suited for a Sligh deck, but for now I'm happy with the discussion had here.


I want to suggest that the thread talk about current meta and what sideboard choices should be the best, or how to sideboard with burn, over all the time I've been playing the deck, the hardest part for me has been a consistent sideboard plan and what to worry about and not worry about when it comes to that. Maybe we should highlight the most problematic matches and what our best options are. I think all of these would be a much better suited way of using our time as a group that all love to play burn.

I agree that this is something that would be really beneficial. In particular, the primer talks about each matchup, but fails to really state what the main issues facing the deck are. Without such a framework it can be difficult to come up with an optimal strategy. To me, considering what seems to be played the most right now, I think some of the most serious problems (from other decks, losing to your own deck is another story) are the following:

Show and Tell decks
Storm Combo decks
Fair decks that can race us (aka RUG)
Counterbalance
Life gain (but really just Batterskull, Deathrite Shaman can be answered easily)


Let me do this slightly out of order. To handle decks that can race us, I believe that Searing Blaze is the best option. It should give us just that little bit of tempo we need in order to close out the game first. I think it's worthwhile to run 4 of these between the main and sideboard; I don't know how much, if any, should be in the main, but I think running 4 across your 75 really will help.

Now, I know a lot of people dislike the idea of splashing colors. For the main deck, I think I am of this opinion as well. Many cards can seem nice, but really they aren't powerful enough to justify a splash in my opinion. That said, most lists are running (or probably should consider) running fetchlands already, so I think there is little risk in adding 1 dual land (possibly more, though probably not needed) in order to splash a color for the sideboard. Note that against any of the decks you'll really want the dual for won't have wasteland, so it should be fine to run a low number of them. In my opinion, I think white is the best option for this.

White gives you access to two very important things: Oblivion Ring and Enlightened Tutor. The obvious is that Oblivion Ring is very solid against Show and Tell strategies, since it doesn't need to be cast to actually be useful. Additionally, compared to ensnaring bridge, Oblivion Ring can deal with Omniscience as well. Unless they can go off twice within the first three turns (or have their 1 or 2 of bounce spells), chances are they will be unable to win the game, so for this reason I think ring is the best card against them. Furthermore, oblivion ring is also one of the top ways to handle counterbalance if you can cast it, which is why that one dual land is very important. You can also use ring against a batterskull. While your opponent will be able to gain 4 life off the batterskull once, if you can deal with the skull you will probably still just win that matchup since your opponent will almost certainly be too slow.

It's worth noting that sulfuric vortex also deals with counterbalance (because of inevitability) and Batterskull quite nicely. Vortex is a pretty nice card in the main deck already, so combining rings with vortex gives you a ton of outs to cards that you probably just lose to otherwise.

Enlightened Tutor improves your consistency of getting oblivion ring for sure, so it gives you a ton of outs for decks that you really, really need to see a specific card to win that game. Furthermore, you can run a small number of tutorable bullets for a few other situation. For combo you can use Pyrostatic Pillar (I think this is probably the best tutorable option). Compared to Mindbreak Trap, your opponent will have much more trouble duressing this out of your hand (really, only if you start with pillar or they have first turn discard and you open with tutor/pillar). This seems very desirable. For graveyard decks you can run a single piece of hate (there are plenty of options) as well. Tutor really helps your consistency post board for getting those key cards. I'm not sure if there is something else that really needs a bullet, but you have the potential to add it to your sideboard easily.

In the end I would consider a sideboard base somewhat like the following:

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Grafdigger's Cage/Rest in Peace/Tormod's Crypt
2-4 Searing Blaze
2-4 Free slots

I'm not sure who will like this idea, but I have used Enlightened Tutor sideboards in the past for a huge variety of decks and always found them to be immensely powerful by virtually increasing the size of my sideboard to increase the consistency of drawing specific cards to win games I have no business winning otherwise.

Lyle Hopkins
09-23-2013, 04:48 PM
What does everyone think the best way to deal with Show and Tell decks should be, sideboard-wise;

I am in between Ensnaring Bridge, and Blasts
something like
3 Ensnaring Bridge (or) 4 Red Elemental Blast (to just counter it, maybe some number of Pithing Needle for the Sneak variants)

Sometimes I find Ensnaring just doesn't work, I think the problem is just not enough hate, but I could be wrong.

I really like the three Angel of Despair that Doug Honeycutt was running at SCG Atlanta. Omni-tell seems quite popular and this may be the best option against that deck.

tesla
09-23-2013, 05:38 PM
An issue for me is the number of main deck lands. I am running the version with fetches and lavamancer. I keep repeating myself that 21 is the right/most consistent number to hit three lands each game (i also run sulfuric vortex main and ensnaring bridge in sideboard), but i seem to flood more often than i should. my 21st land is barbarian ring.

What are your opinions about this ?


I play 21 lands (12 fetches, 9 mountains) more than year and i am very satisfied with it. 3 vortexes and 4 lavamancers maindeck.


About Vexing Devil: It´s not good, although it looks excelent on paper. Far, far behind our best creatures (grim and guide), even worse than Keldon Marauders or Hellspark. Opponent just choose wich part fits his draw better. For those who defend it: are you really play burn in legacy environment? Because some of your arguments made me laugh. Especially that one wich says: lands are bad topdeck too :DDDD

LeoCop 90
09-23-2013, 08:11 PM
Anyone who consider playing Angel of Despair in his sideboard against show and tell should now run Ashen Rider.
It exiles the target instead of destroying it (emrakul won't be reshuffled in the deck) and it works also when he dies. A very slight upgrade, but an upgrade anyway.

I like the idea of the enlightened tutor sideboard, i already used in other decks and adds consistency. The only problem is that enlightened tutor slows your gameplan down a bit, i don't know if burn can waste his first turn casting enlightened tutor and his second turn casting the tutored card. i guess it is ok only if you search for an absolute bomb against your opponent.

DragoFireheart
09-23-2013, 09:10 PM
When is 4 damage for one mana ever bad in burn? By this logic many of the cards in burn shouldn't even be played.

So it seems to me the really only bad scenario is when Vexing Devil becomes a 4/3.


Which is pretty much every turn past 3. top decking it is the worse feeling in the world.

Burn does NOT want bad top decks.

JPettie
09-24-2013, 11:08 AM
I must caution you guys to not take this attitude when discussing cards and decks; you act like a conversation lasting less than a page is already too long. The point of the thread is to discuss things, and so when people have things to discuss they should do so. I agree that some of the arguments presented were somewhat lackluster, but by no means was the discussion "getting out of hand" or "boring" (and by boring I'm assuming you mean pointless because it's an issue that doesn't need to be talked about). When I brought up the subject of vexing devil I considered the points to which I thought he would be useful, and so I appreciate the (thoughtful) responses about the card. I think now that he's better suited for a Sligh deck, but for now I'm happy with the discussion had here.



I agree that this is something that would be really beneficial. In particular, the primer talks about each matchup, but fails to really state what the main issues facing the deck are. Without such a framework it can be difficult to come up with an optimal strategy. To me, considering what seems to be played the most right now, I think some of the most serious problems (from other decks, losing to your own deck is another story) are the following:

Show and Tell decks
Storm Combo decks
Fair decks that can race us (aka RUG)
Counterbalance
Life gain (but really just Batterskull, Deathrite Shaman can be answered easily)


Let me do this slightly out of order. To handle decks that can race us, I believe that Searing Blaze is the best option. It should give us just that little bit of tempo we need in order to close out the game first. I think it's worthwhile to run 4 of these between the main and sideboard; I don't know how much, if any, should be in the main, but I think running 4 across your 75 really will help.

Now, I know a lot of people dislike the idea of splashing colors. For the main deck, I think I am of this opinion as well. Many cards can seem nice, but really they aren't powerful enough to justify a splash in my opinion. That said, most lists are running (or probably should consider) running fetchlands already, so I think there is little risk in adding 1 dual land (possibly more, though probably not needed) in order to splash a color for the sideboard. Note that against any of the decks you'll really want the dual for won't have wasteland, so it should be fine to run a low number of them. In my opinion, I think white is the best option for this.

White gives you access to two very important things: Oblivion Ring and Enlightened Tutor. The obvious is that Oblivion Ring is very solid against Show and Tell strategies, since it doesn't need to be cast to actually be useful. Additionally, compared to ensnaring bridge, Oblivion Ring can deal with Omniscience as well. Unless they can go off twice within the first three turns (or have their 1 or 2 of bounce spells), chances are they will be unable to win the game, so for this reason I think ring is the best card against them. Furthermore, oblivion ring is also one of the top ways to handle counterbalance if you can cast it, which is why that one dual land is very important. You can also use ring against a batterskull. While your opponent will be able to gain 4 life off the batterskull once, if you can deal with the skull you will probably still just win that matchup since your opponent will almost certainly be too slow.

It's worth noting that sulfuric vortex also deals with counterbalance (because of inevitability) and Batterskull quite nicely. Vortex is a pretty nice card in the main deck already, so combining rings with vortex gives you a ton of outs to cards that you probably just lose to otherwise.

Enlightened Tutor improves your consistency of getting oblivion ring for sure, so it gives you a ton of outs for decks that you really, really need to see a specific card to win that game. Furthermore, you can run a small number of tutorable bullets for a few other situation. For combo you can use Pyrostatic Pillar (I think this is probably the best tutorable option). Compared to Mindbreak Trap, your opponent will have much more trouble duressing this out of your hand (really, only if you start with pillar or they have first turn discard and you open with tutor/pillar). This seems very desirable. For graveyard decks you can run a single piece of hate (there are plenty of options) as well. Tutor really helps your consistency post board for getting those key cards. I'm not sure if there is something else that really needs a bullet, but you have the potential to add it to your sideboard easily.

In the end I would consider a sideboard base somewhat like the following:

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Grafdigger's Cage/Rest in Peace/Tormod's Crypt
2-4 Searing Blaze
2-4 Free slots

I'm not sure who will like this idea, but I have used Enlightened Tutor sideboards in the past for a huge variety of decks and always found them to be immensely powerful by virtually increasing the size of my sideboard to increase the consistency of drawing specific cards to win games I have no business winning otherwise.

I am really not a huge fan of the Enlightened Tutor package, but I can definitely see its worth and it would be interesting to test. The fundamental problem for me is putting it on the top of my deck and not getting it until next turn, and then they know my hate is on top and to go off is safe. Maybe that is just a small issue though in a bigger pool. I really do believe we have a lot of options to us in red already, along with things that get cheated into play. Has anyone tried Confusion in the Ranks?

In terms of what I think our worst match ups are, summed up of course, as a top 3 worst. I would love to hear opinions on what the best sideboard plan against these decks would be, with experience.

1. Storm (Combo)

Mindbreak Trap
Pyrostatic Pillar
Pithing Needle
Surgical Extraction

2. Sneak and Show (Show and Tell Variants)

Ensnaring Bridge
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Confusion in the Ranks
Ashen Rider
Pithing Needle


3. Counterbalance

Vexing Shusher
Ensnaring Bridge
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Pithing Needle


Please add to my list if you see something missing and if you have some decks you want to talk about side-boarding against.
Additionally, maybe we can look at a "Blind Meta Sideboard Choice" as a challenge, what if we didn't know the meta of the field we were going to play at, what would each of you bring to the field as a sideboard?

kasparovski
09-25-2013, 02:56 PM
Haven't been playing much myself but sometimes still follow this thread as the only legacy deck i still have is burn and after reading the discussions about how some creatures (most of them) can be bad after turn 2-3 was wondering how would a creatureless burn deck look like. How about this:


4 Shock
4 Burst Lightning

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress

4 Fireblast
2 Shard Volley

3 Sulfuric Vortex

1 Barbarian ring
18 Mountain


I understand there's a big difference between dealing two damage and three but wouldn't reducing the other problems creatures have (topdeck, removal) counterfeit that disadvantage?
or maybe use 4 Goblin Guide instead of Shock... or some Thunderous Wrath (personally not a big fan of the card) Magma Jet, Pillar of Flame, Searing Blaze, Skullcrack...

meh, just leaving it here for discussion i guess.

paeng4983
09-26-2013, 10:12 PM
Since U base are at large at the moment, have you guys consider this in your list Sudden Shock? In situations that your opponent is down to two or one life points and knowing that he's holding a bunch of counters at hand; and having this card is an edge. What do you think guys?
Thanks
^_^

DragoFireheart
09-26-2013, 10:20 PM
Since U base are at large at the moment, have you guys consider this in your list Sudden Shock? In situations that your opponent is down to two or one life points and knowing that he's holding a bunch of counters at hand; and having this card is an edge. What do you think guys?
Thanks
^_^

Volcanic Fallout is superior.

th3 w1z4rd
09-26-2013, 10:31 PM
Elves against Burn? How the F do you plan on comboing with no elves in play sir? By playing Glimpse of Nature, against your deck with no counters. Trollolololololololol

JPettie
09-29-2013, 02:17 PM
Since U base are at large at the moment, have you guys consider this in your list Sudden Shock? In situations that your opponent is down to two or one life points and knowing that he's holding a bunch of counters at hand; and having this card is an edge. What do you think guys?
Thanks
^_^

Vexing Shusher

But seriously, can we talk about match-ups and sideboard plans people? However much I enjoy the one liner comments, I still want some subsistence. This will be my last short comment, even if you all try to trick me into one, it will be hard.

:wink:

Gaudy
09-30-2013, 02:17 PM
last saturday i ended 3° (and 5° post top 8) in a 20 person tournament. here is my deck
MAIN
Lands
12 mountain
4 arid mesa
2 wooded foothills
Creatures
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Keldon Marauder
Spells
4 lightning bolt
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
4 price of progress
4 fireblast
3 flame rift

SIDE
4 Red elemental Blast
1 angel of despair
2 flamebreak
2 sulfuric vortex
3 faerie macabre
3 smelt (this should be smash to smithereens but i can't find that day)

Matchs Ups
1° Omni Show (Loss)
1° game
nothing to do, turn 2 o 3 combo
2° game
very quick game for me, he ate a vexing in turn 1 and 2 guides from turn 2 make the difference for me
3° game
slow game for me, standar for him, i lost in his turn 4
2° Goblins (Win)
1° game
burn only, the turn 1 lackey and turn 3 chief, and he have nothing to do the rest of the game
2° game
i can't burn the turn lackey and he kill the guide i have for blocking with Pyrokinesis, and he put in game a chief and play a piledriver gg
3° game
he keep a slow hand and lavamancer for the win
3° Some deck with WBG (the game doesn't past of turn 3) (WIN)
1° game
goblin turn 1, goblin 2 turn 2, vexing turn 2, price and gg
he play fetchs and dual land, and 1 stonforge
2° game
bolt, bolt, bolt, bolt, flamerift, fireblast
he play thoughtseize and fetchs
4° Elves (WIN)
1° game
1° time i played against elves, so i ate the combo, in turn 4
2° game
i kill some elves like Heritage Druid and other elves and he can't make the combo, spell like prices of progress, flame rift and fireblast give me the win
3° game
kill the some elves and put in play a lavamancer for some board control and the same time i throw the damage to his face

5° DRAW

TOP 8
1 ROUND Elves
1° i should kill Heritage Druid and Deathrite Shaman but i didn't and cost me the game
2° well this was as freak game, he ate a vexing and he didn't play elves until turn 3 o 4 to kill other 2 vexing, and made the choise of throw damage to his face more easy
3° natural order o sun (i can't remember wich one) for Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and it was all for me


PS: sorry for my english

Vlad Teppes
10-01-2013, 12:09 PM
Glacial chasm is MVP in burn, even more if the only creatures you run is the lavamancer and marauders (they don't need to attack to deal damage), and is a nice fall back in case you are overrun with creatures , also it prevents the damage from your own price of progress and flame rift...
Don't leave home without it!

AznSeal
10-03-2013, 12:59 PM
Which of these decks would you think is better for a diverse meta?

boros burn
Creatures: 13
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Vexing Devil

Instants: 17
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm

Sorceries: 8
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt

Lands: 20
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard: 15
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Mindbreak Trap

or

generic burn
Creatures: 8
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

Instants: 13
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
1 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast

Sorceries: 16
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift

Enchantments: 3
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Land: 20
8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard: 15
3 Pyroblast
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens


I've extensively playtested both and here are the goldfish results:

For the boros build, the average turns to win is 3.95. The average damage per turn was 5.92. For the mono red, the average turns to win is 4.9 and the average damage per turn is 4.94. The boros build seems more explosive but when i gold fished, the devils were always 4 points of damage where as in reality, people may block. I also set it so price of progress was 4 points of damage.

Is the almost 1 turn faster worth the splash white, this opening it to wasteland? I guess oblivion ring in the SB is pretty nice.

Justin
10-04-2013, 10:35 AM
The first deck you listed is Boros, not Burn. It has it's own thread is this section, which you can find here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26209-Deck-Boros

I think that mono-red Burn (the second deck you list) is the best for a diverse meta. It's certainly put up better results.

attemanden
10-07-2013, 06:59 PM
Hey folks.

Which one is to prefer for SB. Ashen Rider/Angel of dispair or Ensnaring bridge?...

Vlad Teppes
10-08-2013, 12:34 AM
Hey folks.

Which one is to prefer for SB. Ashen Rider/Angel of dispair or Ensnaring bridge?...

ensaring bridge is way better, it stops creature aggro dead in their tracks, reanimator can't do much unless they use ashen rider and show and tell can't do nothing against it. Ashen Rider is a good creature, but its only useful in one MU

Lyle Hopkins
10-09-2013, 06:52 PM
Hey folks.

Which one is to prefer for SB. Ashen Rider/Angel of dispair or Ensnaring bridge?...

Personally, I prefer Ashen Rider over Ensnaring Bridge. I've been seeing quite a bit of Goblins and Elves recently and I feel like Ensnaring Bridge doesn't do it for me in those match-ups. Goblins doesn't seem to have much difficulty using Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader to find an answer for Ensnaring Bridge, and against Elves a three drop can sometimes be too slow. I would also argue that Reanimator still has Tidespout Tyrant as an answer to Bridge.

What really matters to me is how either of these cards stack up against Omni-Tell. With this deck's popularity at the moment, as well as the fact that it happens to be a pretty bad match-up for Burn, I would recommend running Ashen Rider over Ensnaring Bridge.

danielcrocker
10-24-2013, 03:06 AM
With the current meta game I think burn has a real chance to be competitive in any tournament. Here is the list I'm hoping to take to the next tourney.


17 Mountain
3 Barbarian Ring
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fork Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Guerrilla Tactics


Let me know what you think

EdsonDettoni
11-07-2013, 03:01 AM
People of MTG The Source (excuse my english, please),

Long time no see you, but finally, I've come back to work in this direct and simple deck, the always fun: Burn.

I've made some peculiar choices, which I'd like to justify. I've name it: BURN(ING BAKUNIN). Testing has been great. I'm gratefully surprised.


A. Burning Bakunin decklist.

18 Mountain

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

SB
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Angel of Despair
4 Shattering Spree
4 Faerie Macabre


B. General concept.

Is a "Damage Race" Burn. You can win goldfishing consistently on turn 4, and keep swinging to turn 6.

(a) The obvious Burn Core (4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress) has been sightly modified. But just for maximize the three elements define what burn is: (1) Low Cost (near to 1 average casting cost), (2) Efficiency (Core Spells are 3 damage for 1 mana), and SPECIALLY, (3) Consistency, in (i) mana base and (ii) Aggro concepts like "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage", "Virtual Card Advantage", and "Threat density".

(b) About (1), the average casting cost is 1,14. No 3cc cards.
About (2), most of cards are 3 damage for 1 mana (or even 4).
About (3) (i), only 18 mountains are pretty solid, considering the average casting cost, and protects you from wasteland and stifles. Maybe you can try 17 or 16, to gain "Threat density" (average casting cost 1,14 let it), but it didn't worked for me.
About (3) (i), the Burning Bakunin deck tries to maximize those concepts, as I'll explain on the card choices.

(b) It has some elements of "Recurring damage": 2 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Hellspark Elemental, and 1 Pyrostatic Pillar.


C. Card choices:

(a) No Price of Progress?! That's right. Price of Progress have problems with "Guaranteed Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage". Players avoid to hit 2 or more non-basic lands, and there are good decks, like Elves, wich never hit one. That is why I preffer Flame Rift.

(b) 3 Fireblast, not 4? That's right. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Fireblast in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no lands to cast it, because sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. One of them become useless. So this is for the "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage".

(c) 4 Hellspark Elemental. Recurring damage (Unearth) and 3 (or 6) No-lag Guaranteed Damage (haste speed), makes it a very good choice. Better than Keldon Marauders, wich deals only 2 damage of that kind.

(d) 4 Vexing Devil. The problem of letting choose to your opponent has been discused widely. Also if an opponent choose creature, it is no guaranteed damage, nor no-lag damage. But has a real good pro, and is that whichever be the opponent choice, it is a 1cc. If Vexing Devil is in your opening hand, opponent will choose damage, wich is very efective and 4 damage for 1 mana is amazing. And when opponent choose creature, it happens beacause is under 10 lives (or has some board control). But even is not bad idea to have a 4/3 creature; think about it like a pumped up Figure of Destiny, but just for 1. Here we sacrifices a little of consistency in honor to "Low Cost" and "Efficiency".

(e) 4 Spark Elemental. This is a weak card, but harmonizes with the consistency of the average casting cost, "Guaranteed Damage" and "No Lag Damage".


D. Side Board

(a) Against combo. Because Burn have no counter magic, can always loose against Combo. Thats why I have 3 (4) Pyrostatic Pillar, 4 Angel of Despair, and 4 Faerie Macabre.

(b) Against life gain and others. The better choice is 4 Shattering Spree. With this you can kill Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskul, besides some other ugly stuff, like Chalice of the Void or sphere of resistance. Sulfuric Vortex it is not so versatile, besides de 3CC.

EdsonDettoni
11-11-2013, 01:10 AM
People of MTG The Source (excuse my english, please),

Long time no see you, but finally, I've come back to work in this direct and simple deck, the always fun: Burn.

I've made some peculiar choices, which I'd like to justify. I've name it: BURN(ING BAKUNIN). Testing has been great. I'm gratefully surprised.


A. Burning Bakunin decklist.

18 Mountain

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

SB
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Angel of Despair
4 Shattering Spree
4 Faerie Macabre


B. General concept.

Is a "Damage Race" Burn. You can win goldfishing consistently on turn 4, and keep swinging to turn 6.

(a) The obvious Burn Core (4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress) has been sightly modified. But just for maximize the three elements define what burn is: (1) Low Cost (near to 1 average casting cost), (2) Efficiency (Core Spells are 3 damage for 1 mana), and SPECIALLY, (3) Consistency, in (i) mana base and (ii) Aggro concepts like "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage", "Virtual Card Advantage", and "Threat density".

(b) About (1), the average casting cost is 1,14. No 3cc cards.
About (2), most of cards are 3 damage for 1 mana (or even 4).
About (3) (i), only 18 mountains are pretty solid, considering the average casting cost, and protects you from wasteland and stifles. Maybe you can try 17 or 16, to gain "Threat density" (average casting cost 1,14 let it), but it didn't worked for me.
About (3) (i), the Burning Bakunin deck tries to maximize those concepts, as I'll explain on the card choices.

(b) It has some elements of "Recurring damage": 2 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Hellspark Elemental, and 1 Pyrostatic Pillar.


C. Card choices:

(a) No Price of Progress?! That's right. Price of Progress have problems with "Guaranteed Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage". Players avoid to hit 2 or more non-basic lands, and there are good decks, like Elves, wich never hit one. That is why I preffer Flame Rift.

(b) 3 Fireblast, not 4? That's right. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Fireblast in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no lands to cast it, because sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. One of them become useless. So this is for the "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage".

(c) 4 Hellspark Elemental. Recurring damage (Unearth) and 3 (or 6) No-lag Guaranteed Damage (haste speed), makes it a very good choice. Better than Keldon Marauders, wich deals only 2 damage of that kind.

(d) 4 Vexing Devil. The problem of letting choose to your opponent has been discused widely. Also if an opponent choose creature, it is no guaranteed damage, nor no-lag damage. But has a real good pro, and is that whichever be the opponent choice, it is a 1cc. If Vexing Devil is in your opening hand, opponent will choose damage, wich is very efective and 4 damage for 1 mana is amazing. And when opponent choose creature, it happens beacause is under 10 lives (or has some board control). But even is not bad idea to have a 4/3 creature; think about it like a pumped up Figure of Destiny, but just for 1. Here we sacrifices a little of consistency in honor to "Low Cost" and "Efficiency".

(e) 4 Spark Elemental. This is a weak card, but harmonizes with the consistency of the average casting cost, "Guaranteed Damage" and "No Lag Damage".


D. Side Board

(a) Against combo. Because Burn have no counter magic, can always loose against Combo. Thats why I have 3 (4) Pyrostatic Pillar, 4 Angel of Despair, and 4 Faerie Macabre.

(b) Against life gain and others. The better choice is 4 Shattering Spree. With this you can kill Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskul, besides some other ugly stuff, like Chalice of the Void or sphere of resistance. Sulfuric Vortex it is not so versatile, besides de 3CC.

Quoting oneself is really anoying, but currently there no other to discuss...

So, thinking on the deck, maybe you can try an extreme version. Adding Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe. Something like this:

17 Mountain

4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

3 Fireblast

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

wooboy11
11-11-2013, 06:47 AM
Quoting oneself is really anoying, but currently there no other to discuss...

So, thinking on the deck, maybe you can try an extreme version. Adding Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe. Something like this:

17 Mountain

4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

3 Fireblast

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

I've been thinking about it. Seems decent, but you lose a little on your mulliganing decisions, and Burn is well known for being easy and efficient to mulligan. Have you tested it already?

One thing I added to my deck and it's been doing wonders is Rakdos Cackler. Strictly worse than GG, but it can still add to 4 damage by turn three for one mana.

JPettie
11-11-2013, 05:12 PM
People of MTG The Source (excuse my english, please),

Long time no see you, but finally, I've come back to work in this direct and simple deck, the always fun: Burn.

I've made some peculiar choices, which I'd like to justify. I've name it: BURN(ING BAKUNIN). Testing has been great. I'm gratefully surprised.


A. Burning Bakunin decklist.

18 Mountain

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Flame Rift
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

SB
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Angel of Despair
4 Shattering Spree
4 Faerie Macabre


B. General concept.

Is a "Damage Race" Burn. You can win goldfishing consistently on turn 4, and keep swinging to turn 6.

(a) The obvious Burn Core (4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress) has been sightly modified. But just for maximize the three elements define what burn is: (1) Low Cost (near to 1 average casting cost), (2) Efficiency (Core Spells are 3 damage for 1 mana), and SPECIALLY, (3) Consistency, in (i) mana base and (ii) Aggro concepts like "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage", "Virtual Card Advantage", and "Threat density".

(b) About (1), the average casting cost is 1,14. No 3cc cards.
About (2), most of cards are 3 damage for 1 mana (or even 4).
About (3) (i), only 18 mountains are pretty solid, considering the average casting cost, and protects you from wasteland and stifles. Maybe you can try 17 or 16, to gain "Threat density" (average casting cost 1,14 let it), but it didn't worked for me.
About (3) (i), the Burning Bakunin deck tries to maximize those concepts, as I'll explain on the card choices.

(b) It has some elements of "Recurring damage": 2 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Hellspark Elemental, and 1 Pyrostatic Pillar.


C. Card choices:

(a) No Price of Progress?! That's right. Price of Progress have problems with "Guaranteed Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage". Players avoid to hit 2 or more non-basic lands, and there are good decks, like Elves, wich never hit one. That is why I preffer Flame Rift.

(b) 3 Fireblast, not 4? That's right. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Fireblast in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no lands to cast it, because sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. One of them become useless. So this is for the "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage".

(c) 4 Hellspark Elemental. Recurring damage (Unearth) and 3 (or 6) No-lag Guaranteed Damage (haste speed), makes it a very good choice. Better than Keldon Marauders, wich deals only 2 damage of that kind.

(d) 4 Vexing Devil. The problem of letting choose to your opponent has been discused widely. Also if an opponent choose creature, it is no guaranteed damage, nor no-lag damage. But has a real good pro, and is that whichever be the opponent choice, it is a 1cc. If Vexing Devil is in your opening hand, opponent will choose damage, wich is very efective and 4 damage for 1 mana is amazing. And when opponent choose creature, it happens beacause is under 10 lives (or has some board control). But even is not bad idea to have a 4/3 creature; think about it like a pumped up Figure of Destiny, but just for 1. Here we sacrifices a little of consistency in honor to "Low Cost" and "Efficiency".

(e) 4 Spark Elemental. This is a weak card, but harmonizes with the consistency of the average casting cost, "Guaranteed Damage" and "No Lag Damage".


D. Side Board

(a) Against combo. Because Burn have no counter magic, can always loose against Combo. Thats why I have 3 (4) Pyrostatic Pillar, 4 Angel of Despair, and 4 Faerie Macabre.

(b) Against life gain and others. The better choice is 4 Shattering Spree. With this you can kill Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskul, besides some other ugly stuff, like Chalice of the Void or sphere of resistance. Sulfuric Vortex it is not so versatile, besides de 3CC.

I have a few questions for you before I try to debate or understand your logical analysis of burn and its core cards/interactions.

Are you building burn because of budget?
What is the meta you plan to play in like?
What is your experience playing the deck, top 8s and overall tournament success/trials?

Nevarine
11-17-2013, 11:01 PM
Hey everyone! Long time burn player here that just came back from the Grand Prix in DC. I finished 36th with a 12-3 record and thought I would write a report on my matches and experience. In a 15 round tournament I'm not gonna remember everything but I'll try to give some good detail.

So first is my deck list!
Land 20
11 Fetches
9 Mountains

9 Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vexing Devil

31 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard
4 Searing Blaze
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithreens
1 Pyroblast

Pretty standard maindeck aside from the 1 vexing devil. I have played the 60th card as a 4th vortex or 21st land and I didn't like either. Vexing devil ended being solid the few times I saw him. I'll talk about the sideboard in the round reports.

Round 1 - Imperial Painter
Sweet! Start off the tournament with a good matchup. Not only that but my opponent was a newer player who made a few fatal mistakes. Game one he had the win on turn four with no targeted burn in my hand to stop it but he punted by not tapping his city of traitors before fetching with an arid mesa he played for the turn (city in play already, played mesa, cracked). Judge was called and he gave my opponent a warning. This bought me the extra time to burn for the win.

Sideboarded in 4 searing blaze, 3 smash and out 3 vortex/ 4 price progress.

Opp keeps his 7 and starts out with leyline of sancity. Okay not the worst, I have goblin guide in my opening along with 3 chain lightings/bolts and a fireblast for his painters. However, he doesnt make a land drop and simply passes. He doesnt hit land for 2 turns and I draw smash and a grim lava. He plays imperial recruiter turn 4-5 (using a simian spirt guide as well for mana) and gets painter. Here I attack with gg, force a chump and suspend rift. He now cannot play painter and I simply rift myself (worth the time walk all day). Instead he plays grindstone for the turn and gives me a smash target and that ends the game. My opp certainly kept a greedy hand I think (leyline with one guide on the play) and got punished for it. Again, this is a great match up where they have to rely on cards like leyline to hopefully get there. I also am very experienced playing against the deck and have even piloted it myself a few times.

Round 2- Reanimator
Well shit. One of the worst match ups possible and I dont have any specific GY hate. Game one he kept a hand of swamp and 2 lotus petals that didn't do anything and had to use the petals to cast his brainstorms. Weeee!

Sideboarded in 3 ensnaring bridge and out 3 grim lavamancer.

G2 he assembles an entomb into iona and gets it on the board turn 3-4. He then has the double daze for my bridge. Okay, on to G3. Now comes what I like to call my biggest punt of the grand prix. I get a solid, fast hand and have him to 12 on turn three with one mana left to cast either a chain lightning or suspend rift bolt. Stupidly I suspend the rift bolt thinking of optimizing my burn and playing around daze. WRONG! I should have 100%, every single time put him to 9 by casting chain lightning. The reason of course is that iona is a 9 converted mana cost creature and therefore he would have statistically less couple cards to reanimate it. I get punished as his only reanimate spell is the one mana reanimate and lose the game. We discuss it and look at our hands afterwards and deem that I would have won if I made the proper play. Now this mentally destroys me. A punt that costs me an entire round this early was devastating and I basically went on gave up mentally on doing well in the tournament.

Round 3-Merfolk
Now again, my mood is completely different then first two rounds as I feel as though I have no chance anymore of even making day 2. In some ways it was liberating as I felt there was less stress and demand on myself to do well. G1 I see I’m playing merfolk and think only more negative thoughts. Merfolk isn’t an insanely bad matchup but I certainly would rather face any delver tempo deck over them. Why? Merfolk has a faster clock with all the same conditional counters as the delver decks. It also doesn’t get as hurt by a bolt to a lord as RUG, BUG, UWR do to a bolt to a delver. Price is also much worse. Either way he takes a quick game one.

Sideboarded out 4 price and 4 flame rift I believe for 4 searing blaze and 2 smash, 2 ensnaring bridge. Kinda of wonky siding as I hate taking out flame rift ever but all the cards I was bringing in were much better.

Take G2 without showing him either smash or ensnaring bridge. In G3 I get a bridge in my opening and when you get these opening bridges your play needs to reflect it. I made sure to play all my spells before bridge and do everything I can to make sure it resolves around conditional counters. I resolve the bridge but brick on burn for about 4 draws and make a comment how I’m giving him a lot of time to find an answer to bridge. He says he doesn’t think he boarded one in. Now this is basically a huge part of my tournament as it comes up multiple times (I win G1 and they don’t see the bridge till its too late for G2 or they just naturally don’t see it until G3 and don’t board in any outs).

Now Rounds 4-7 are basically a blur. My confidence is back with each round I win but the decks I played were all so similar that I don’t remember a lot of specifics.

Round 4- UWR
Great match up as I have a lot of great sideboard (4 blaze, 3 smash for the equipment). Win in pretty decisive manner.

Round 5- Death and Taxes
Even better match up, I dream for playing this deck. Same board as last round. Opp does manage to win a game when I didn’t see anything to answer a stoneforge (happens but every rarely especially postboard).

Round 6 and 7 –RUG
Not as good as UWR but positive match up as long as you play tight. Gotta constantly think about spell pierce, force, flusterstorm, daze, stifle and play according. Timing on your prices are key, often you do it on your main phase or their upkeep, rarely their EOT. Bring in 3 bridge and take out 3 vortex. Don’t bring in Searing blaze against RUG, it’s a trap. You pretty much can never get gofy with it and obviously never goose. Hitting delver would be great but it requires so many things to go right that its just not worth it for 4 of their cards (stifling your fetch or any conditional counter). As I mentioned against merfolk, play to resolve a bridge as they often have no answer and think about how many bolts now they need to win (don’t flame rift or fetch necessarily).

Round 8- Goblins
Awesome! Feeling good at this point being X-1, only needing to win one of my next two match to day 2 and I happen to play my best match up. Goblins of course has basically no interaction with burn and is always a race your favored to win. Apparently though the gods really wanted this goblins player to make day 2 and he casually gets 2 pile drivers with a warchief to kill me on turn 4 each game. A few too many lands and I can’t compete. He boarded in one card to my seven (4 blaze and 3 smash again). I was pretty blown away by this turn of events but was ready to make up for it with my win in round for day 2 (7-2 or better making it in).

Round 9- The Epic Storm
Now I realize my tournament was over as this is probably one of the worse match ups possible. He is the fastest storm variant (would rather play straight UB ad naseum over TES). As I’m giving my opp my sob story about losing to my best match up and going into my worst now, he continues to be a great guy and says it not all over, anything can happen. I lose G1 on turn 2….gulp…..

Sideboarded in my 4 pyrostatic pillar here over 3 vortex and one lavamancer. The same gods that decided to favor my goblins opp last round now took pity on me. Got a fantastic hand of 2 lands, bolts, pillar and a fireblast. He has the win through the pillar to kill me with 2 life left but I had the fireblast for the win. G3 the gods smile upon me even more! He mulls to 4 or 5 and keeps a hand of a dark ritual, infernal tutor, probe, and cabal therapy. Misses land on his probe to view my keep of 5 lands, goblin guide and pillar (obviously 5 lands are not ideal in burn openers and I would mull them any other time). I end up winning one of my worst match ups to get into day 2. I feel exhilarated yet sorry for my opp as he clearly would win 70-75% of the time in this match up. Again, karma for the goblins match I think 

Now going into day 2 my breakers are actually pretty bad. I was 194ish out of 237ish players. Even with a 6-0 in day 2 it was very possible I would miss top 8 on breakers. I didn’t really let this affect me and played with the mindset of potentially winning the entire thing now. Also, with the amount of players at the GP, every X-2 would get a pro tour invite regardless if they made top 8 or not and that got me pumped as well. I literally had dreams that night of playing magic in the morning (first time I ever dreamed of playing MTG haha).

Round 10 –RUG
Again? Well no complaints here. Played very tight and got the win without ever seeing my almighty bridge. Don’t get me wrong as these will always be pretty close but you have to know when bolt that delver (hint: its not just when your at 6 or 3 life, can be as early as turns 1-3 depending on your hand).

Round 11 – Miracles
Ah finally miracles. Well as long as they don’t have energy field this is actually a slightly favorable matchup. They pretty much have to assemble the counter-top lock within the first 3-4 turns or its usually game. This was the one time in the GP where I felt I made a poor keep. My G1 hand was devil, bolt, goblin guide, 2 fireblast and 1 sulfuric vortex. I was on the draw so I choose to kept but retrospectively that was quite greedy. Burn does not mull well (thankfully rarely has to) but this hand could easily get punished. And that it did. I proceded to draw a third fireblast along with some 2 mana spells.

Sideboarded in 2 pyrostatic pillar for 2 price of progress. Now this is an interesting side boarding match. My opp sometimes can’t help but to play nonbasic’s/fetch for nonbasics even though he knows I boarded out something. I like to keep them honest by keeping in 2 price and multiple pillars isn’t the greatest as they have dention sphere.

G2 I get a solid hand and get him low quite fast but not dead before he can play counterbalance with top. Now I have played this match up enough to understand that you sometimes need to test the waters so to speak, you don’t really have a choice since the longer the game goes, the less chance you have to win. So sometimes you have to play the bolts in the counterbalance lock. Make them use the mana and put non-2 or 3s on top so you can resolve the important spells like vortex. This is exactly what happens and it vortex gets me there.

G3 He fortunately mulls to 5 but gets a decent hand with swords for my guide and a blind counterbalance. By the time he can get to jacing, I already have vortex and pillar in play. Nightmare scenario for him and gets me the win.

Round 12 –Ad nasuem Storm
Was feeling great with my 2-0 for the day and now this freaking deck? To my left is elves playing death and taxes, why couldn’t I get either of them??? Well it ends up being very close G1 with me on the play and needing any burn spell off the top turn 4 for the win and draw mountain instead. He combos me next turn.

Sideboarded in 2 vortex out and 2 price out for 4 pyrostatic pillar. Why the strange split? Well the vortex on average is too slow and the price isn’t as good against the two color storm as it is against TES. So again I wanna keep him honest and force constant fetching of basics, hoping to hinder him in any way.

G2 I get a somewhat strange hand that has 2 lands, pillar, 2 fireblast, 1 chain lightning and 1 flame rift. I keep and get the pillar out without being discarded. Now I have to play the pillar turn 2 which means that all my spells shock me as well. This is super relevant as it makes it much easier for him to kill me with a natural sequence of rituals into tutor into tendrils (needs 5-6 storm vs 10 storm). Now there is an argument to be made that I should have held onto my burn spells till I can reach somekind of critical mass to kill him in one turn or get him to 2 (essentially dead with pillar on board). I didn’t go with this line as I thought that would be somewhat difficult to get the needed cards and I need to lessen the odds that he can dig with ad nasuem further (more life, more cards) to find the decay or bounce for the pillar. He unfortunately had the chain of vapor EOT on my turn and combed me the next with a tendrils for 5 as I was at 10 from my own doing.

Now my dreams of Burning the Grand Prix are over. No top 8 chance, no pro tour invite. I only weep for a few moments as there is still pride and money to be had if I 3-0 the last 3 rounds!

Round 13 – Death and Taxes
Dream match up again. Make sure though to know when to bolt a mother or thalia. You usually never hit a mother unless you get a goblin guide hand. Knowing when to hit thalia is a lot tricker. A lot of of the time you kill her when you need to cast vortex to stop their life gain but are only on 2 or 3 mana. He does manage to sneak in a win just like my first death and taxes person by having the mystic unanswered but my board is just so good against them that I easily win G2 and G3.

Round 14- RUG
Ah, hello my old friend. Win G1 and in G2 I carefully resolve a bridge that he didn’t board in an answer for. Sound familiar?

Round 15- Scapeshift
What in the world??? I pride myself on being pretty knowledgeable about legacy in general and knowing decklists. But now I pretty much have no idea whats about to happen. G1 he goes turn 1 veteran explorer after I was on the play with a goblin guide. I have a second guide so I don’t think its reasonable to not swing in (I also assume hes on NIC FIT). But no, good guy goblin guide reveals the actual scapeshift on turn 2 and now the cat is out of the bag. He ends up getting a second veteran as well that blocks netting us both 4 extra lands. He goes for the scapeshift turn 4 while at 8 life. Now my hand is mountain/ price of progress. Fortunately its not really possible for him to run enough basics to kill me through a price of progress with scapeshift and I price with the valakut triggers on the stack. He later tells me that was probably a mistake as he had a thragtusk in hand he could have cast instead. Depending on the draws, its not impossible it could have got him there.

So for sideboarding I do nothing. First time the entire GP. What do I put in for the black, green, red scapeshift deck? Only creatures I saw were veteran explorer which I certainly don’t want to searing blaze.

G2 He get a blind cabal to hit my goblin guide in my opening hand before I can play it and sees my 1 vortex, 1 flame rift and 4 lands left. Not pretty but not the worse on the draw if I have the guide. I draw a second vortex and realize where this is going . He plays veteran explorer and flashbacks cabal for my double vortex leaving me with just flame rift. I draw land now. Next turn he slaughter games for price of progress and I simply scoop. Probably a bit early but if he had scapeshift or any big creature then I was dead as he was at 20 life and had 6 lands with a couple cards in hand.

Now that I have seen the discard (also saw wood elves!!!) I take out 3 vortex for three pillar in G3. Seems like a marginal upgrade but I think it was correct.
Game 3 ends up being very strange has he gets double veteran again to my goblin guide and grim lava. I don’t attack as I have other damage sources this time. He therapys for price and hits while seeing both fireblast and bolt left. Now comes the interesting part. He wants to ramp by flashbacking therapy but cant because the ramp resolves first getting me enough mana to tap out each turn while being able to play both bolt and fireblast for free and fuel my lavamancer if he ramps. So he just sits on 3-4 mana while I play chain lightings, lavamancer him and then play a pillar. He procedes to cast huntmaster of the fells (gotta love legacy) but it was too late and I burn him out.

And that’s my tournament! Overall I feel as though the deck choice was great and went as statistically expected in all my matches expect for the goblins lose and TES win. I saw few storm, sneak and show, omitell, Reanimator in the general field. There was a lot of death and taxes and delver decks at the top tables. I got rewarded by matching up with them in general and the matches playing out as they usually would. I was more confident in my matchups for the day 2 field then the day 1 as well for this same reason. If I had to make any changes to the list it would probably be cutting the pyroblast for the 4th bridge. Bridge was MVP sideboard card for sure and came in for every delver matchup and merfolk (other than UWR delver since I have smash plus blaze there). I have never liked red blasts in burn sideboards. It almost never does what you want it to do, you don’t want to have to be the control deck or the one answering your opp. Make him answer you with cards like bridge and pillar. The misers blast was mainly a concession to energy field, though if I played sneak and show or omi tell I would have bought it in.

If I had to play again with burn in a large legacy I would make the same choice again with the current meta (not a budget choice btw, I have access to most decks really). Well I hoped this report helps not only the burn players but the legacy community in general. Every single person I played was extremely nice and I only have good things to say about all my opponents. That I feel is a defining note of legacy and makes me want to come back again and again.

Well I had a blast in my first GP. If anyone has questions I’ll try to answer when I can. Cheers

jrw1985
11-18-2013, 12:54 AM
@ Nevarine: Great report and congrats on a good showing!

Gaudy
11-18-2013, 03:29 PM
@ Nevarine: wow, man thank for the report and congrats for the result :smile:

Nevarine
11-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Thanks guys, glad I could share my experience.

JPettie
11-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Hey everyone! Long time burn player here that just came back from the Grand Prix in DC. I finished 36th with a 12-3 record and thought I would write a report on my matches and experience. In a 15 round tournament I'm not gonna remember everything but I'll try to give some good detail.

So first is my deck list!
Land 20
11 Fetches
9 Mountains

9 Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vexing Devil

31 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard
4 Searing Blaze
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithreens
1 Pyroblast

Pretty standard maindeck aside from the 1 vexing devil. I have played the 60th card as a 4th vortex or 21st land and I didn't like either. Vexing devil ended being solid the few times I saw him. I'll talk about the sideboard in the round reports.

I've been having the same thoughts about the 21st land and 4th Vortex, in my case I've been running a singleton Ensnaring Bridge, mainly just as a placeholder for now until I find a reasonable choice for the 60th card. I am not a huge backer on Vexing Devil, but how did you feel about it being your 60th card, would you rather have something else looking back, say you were to run the list tomorrow, your mainboard?



Round 1 - Imperial Painter
Sweet! Start off the tournament with a good matchup. Not only that but my opponent was a newer player who made a few fatal mistakes. Game one he had the win on turn four with no targeted burn in my hand to stop it but he punted by not tapping his city of traitors before fetching with an arid mesa he played for the turn (city in play already, played mesa, cracked). Judge was called and he gave my opponent a warning. This bought me the extra time to burn for the win.

Sideboarded in 4 searing blaze, 3 smash and out 3 vortex/ 4 price progress.

I actually believe that Price of Progress is very good against Imperial Painter, even under blood moon it will kill them easily with all their non-basics. I find most players do not know about that ruling being in favor of Price of Progress. Just having a Grim Lavamancer on line against that deck is insane, they have a horrible match up against burn it seems.



Round 2- Reanimator
Well shit. One of the worst match ups possible and I dont have any specific GY hate. Game one he kept a hand of swamp and 2 lotus petals that didn't do anything and had to use the petals to cast his brainstorms. Weeee!

Sideboarded in 3 ensnaring bridge and out 3 grim lavamancer.

Have you thought about running Faeries? I find Reanimator our worst match up. I have actually been toying with the idea of Duplicant to deal with Iona and Sneak and Show match ups. Even with a Bridge in play, if they resolve an Iona, you still lose the game, because you can't play any of your spells, I have toyed with Dismember as well, but maybe it is best to just understand losing to that match is going to happen and devoting too much to it, is wrong.



Round 13 – Death and Taxes
Dream match up again. Make sure though to know when to bolt a mother or thalia. You usually never hit a mother unless you get a goblin guide hand. Knowing when to hit thalia is a lot tricker. A lot of of the time you kill her when you need to cast vortex to stop their life gain but are only on 2 or 3 mana.

Could you elaborate on your meaning behind usually never hitting a mother of runes unless you have a goblin guide hand?

I have some questions regarding your sideboard choices.
Do you favor Pyrostatic Pillar over Mindbreak Trap and why is that if you do?
Do you find Searing Blaze to be necessary in winning against the match ups you bring it in against or is it just an added bonus?
How important do you feel the Smash to Smithereens have been even though you are running 3 Vortex main?

Lastly, I would like to congratulate you on a wonderful showing, I do not play Burn because of budget, same as you. I love the deck and believe experience speaks more than the cards in your deck. I recently top 8'd a local monthly tournament with a mid 20s showing. I will write a small report if anyone is interested and you can find my list here: http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/news.php?item.51.5

Gaudy
11-19-2013, 05:11 PM
Burn should never be a budget choice, is not a easy deck unlike the many people think. many friends of mine can't win a single match with Burn, they can win with delver, d&t or pox, but burn is out of their ability

and is a very fun

Ace/Homebrew
11-19-2013, 06:53 PM
You can find my list here: http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/news.php?item.51.5

6th Place - Pettie, Jacob with ' Burn '
Main Deck :
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain

Sideboard :
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pithing Needle
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental
Nevarine, thank you for your report! :laugh:

I intend to play Burn this weekend and had a few questions for you guys.

At this time I am favoring the fetchless manabase with 1 or 2 Barbarian Rings. Would you continue using 4x Grim Lavamancer anyway or swap them out? If swapping... what do you replace it with? Marauders?

Neither of you guys (Pettie and Nev) have Grave-Hate in your sideboard. Care to explain the reasoning?

Nevarine, can you talk further on Pyrostatic Pillar? It seems you brought it in against some decks I would never think to use it against (like Miracles).

Pettie, what were you packing Pithing Needle for? Nev had 1 Pyro... You have 2 Shushers and 4 REBs. Is that a local meta choice? Play-style choice?
What card got a spot in your sideboard since you moved a Bridge to the main deck?

Nevarine
11-19-2013, 09:31 PM
Okay, lots of great questions!

JPettie-

Would I run vexing devil tomorrow? Yes. Is it correct? Still not sure. It had a great performance the few times I did cast it at the grand prix, always either trading up in card value or just being a strictly better lava spike. That being said I didn't face any deathrite shaman decks (board it out there).

Your definitely correct about price being good against painter. However, the cards I boarded in are better and painter usually runs about 8-10 basics as well. I would rather have flame rift be 100% 4 damage then price be 0-6 damage sometimes. Its more of a choice of playing the more consistent card.

Your final thoughts about reminator are correct in my opinion. Its one of our worst matchups and devoting very specific cards to hate it is not worth it. Also bridge is not the best against them but its won me games in a few reanimator matchups.

As to know when to kill mother of runes....imagine this scenario. You on the play with a goblin guide. Your opp goes turn 1 mom. By bolting the mother you allow yourself to setup the game where you can later bolt problematic thalias and continue to swing unblocked with goblin guide. It depends on the rest of your hand as well.

I love pryostatic pillar. Yes you can die to turn 1 or turn 2 kills on the draw against storm with it in your hand. But i have played too many storm matchups to know that mindbreak simply is hoping for too much. They usually have a probe and/or discard the turn they go off. As I stated in my report, I dont wanna be the reactive deck with burn. Make them answer you with pillar. My two storm opp's literally had physical reactions when I played it haha.

Searing blaze is not a win more but its not entirely necessary either. It simply gives you more insurance and helps games go more smoothly in your favor. Their are so many durdle creature decks right now in legacy that i feel like it is worth the inclusion.

On the other hand smash is more needed. 3 voretex's is usually not enough against lifegain cards (usually equipment). Not only that but I really like having an answer to chalice of the void. That card is a beating and will always be set to one first against the burn deck. Its a great catch all against alot of decks as well (shardless bug, affinty, mud, etc.)

Ace/Homebrew-

I have played the fetchless manabase with rings before (with and without grimlava). It is god awful and I would 100% recommend against it. Ring is the worst card for burn it lowers your consistency to fireblast and to have a stable manabase against wasteland. Keeping one landers is a great strength of the burn deck and having a hand of ring as your only land is disgustingly bad. If you cannot get fetches then lower the lavamancer count to 0-2 and replace them with vexing devil and/or marauders.

Pyrostatic pillar was my second favorite sideboard card after bridge. It helps against alot of your worst matchups and has random utility elsewhere. Why did i bring it in against miracles? They are a control deck that plays alot of cantrips. If each of their brainstorms now shocks them, then they have alot less time/ability to find answers to your burn.

kyngdon
11-20-2013, 11:26 AM
Hi guys ...what do you think about this deck list ? 19 lands enough for the 3 vortex + 2 volcanic fallout ?
17 mountain
2 barbarian ring

4 vexing devil
4 goblin guide
2 volcanic fallout
4 lightning bolt
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
4 price of progress
4 flame rift
4 fireblast
3 sulfuric vortex

Side
4 pyroblast
3 pirostatic pillar
3 smash to smithereens
2 ensnaring bridge
3 faerie macabre

Thanks all.

JPettie
11-20-2013, 06:15 PM
Nevarine, thank you for your report! :laugh:

I intend to play Burn this weekend and had a few questions for you guys.

At this time I am favoring the fetchless manabase with 1 or 2 Barbarian Rings. Would you continue using 4x Grim Lavamancer anyway or swap them out? If swapping... what do you replace it with? Marauders?

Neither of you guys (Pettie and Nev) have Grave-Hate in your sideboard. Care to explain the reasoning?

Nevarine, can you talk further on Pyrostatic Pillar? It seems you brought it in against some decks I would never think to use it against (like Miracles).

Pettie, what were you packing Pithing Needle for? Nev had 1 Pyro... You have 2 Shushers and 4 REBs. Is that a local meta choice? Play-style choice?
What card got a spot in your sideboard since you moved a Bridge to the main deck?

I will forever favor the fetch burn, Grim Lavamancer flat out wins games for us. I would be careful about how many Grims you run without fetches, I do enjoy myself a Hellspark Elemental over Marauders, but others may think different, and with Deathrite around it may be the wrong choice. I did not have graveyard hate because I sort of know most of the people in the room when I play there and I didn't see many graveyard decks, so it was more of a meta choice. I was packing Vexing Shusher and Pithing for the Counterbalance matchup, people seem to play that a lot where I am at, along with storm, I actually have a pretty bad meta to be playing Burn in, but I love the deck so it doesn't ward me away. I think I tend to play more of an interactive style of burn with my sideboard, I have not been disappointed as of yet with 4 REBs, they do really well against a lot of the blue decks along with stopping Sneak and Show from can-tripping and Show and Telling. I run 2 Pithing Needles because they can be all-stars in a lot of match ups, and never have been bad for me. I threw in a Sulfur Elemental because I saw some Death and Taxes around and it can really beat their plan overall, that was the open spot I used with Ensnaring in the main, I am still toying with a 60th card, but I like the Ensnaring right now.

JPettie
11-20-2013, 06:25 PM
Okay, lots of great questions!

JPettie-

Would I run vexing devil tomorrow? Yes. Is it correct? Still not sure. It had a great performance the few times I did cast it at the grand prix, always either trading up in card value or just being a strictly better lava spike. That being said I didn't face any deathrite shaman decks (board it out there).

Your definitely correct about price being good against painter. However, the cards I boarded in are better and painter usually runs about 8-10 basics as well. I would rather have flame rift be 100% 4 damage then price be 0-6 damage sometimes. Its more of a choice of playing the more consistent card.

Your final thoughts about reminator are correct in my opinion. Its one of our worst matchups and devoting very specific cards to hate it is not worth it. Also bridge is not the best against them but its won me games in a few reanimator matchups.

As to know when to kill mother of runes....imagine this scenario. You on the play with a goblin guide. Your opp goes turn 1 mom. By bolting the mother you allow yourself to setup the game where you can later bolt problematic thalias and continue to swing unblocked with goblin guide. It depends on the rest of your hand as well.

I love pryostatic pillar. Yes you can die to turn 1 or turn 2 kills on the draw against storm with it in your hand. But i have played too many storm matchups to know that mindbreak simply is hoping for too much. They usually have a probe and/or discard the turn they go off. As I stated in my report, I dont wanna be the reactive deck with burn. Make them answer you with pillar. My two storm opp's literally had physical reactions when I played it haha.

Searing blaze is not a win more but its not entirely necessary either. It simply gives you more insurance and helps games go more smoothly in your favor. Their are so many durdle creature decks right now in legacy that i feel like it is worth the inclusion.

On the other hand smash is more needed. 3 voretex's is usually not enough against lifegain cards (usually equipment). Not only that but I really like having an answer to chalice of the void. That card is a beating and will always be set to one first against the burn deck. Its a great catch all against alot of decks as well (shardless bug, affinty, mud, etc.)


I tend to stay away from Vexing, and down to 8 creatures because of Deathrite, Grim defeats it in a fight and that's the way I like it, I don't want them using my creatures to lose the game for me. I actually rarely ever board out Flame Rift, I personally believe it is the reason the deck works, it curves perfectly, and is one of my favorite cards in the deck. I find Pithing Needle to be good against Painter decks as well, but the match up is already hugely in our favor, so sideboarding against it can be almost anything good in different forms of hate. I'm on the border when it comes to Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap, I hate to lose a game turn 1-2 because I have a Pyrostatic Pillar in my hand, but I do believe it has good uses against other decks where Mindbreak Trap may not be so ideal. It can be pretty devastating against Elves as well, but I've Mindbreak'd Elves players before and won games because of it. It is an internal war on those 2 combo hate cards for me, and may always be one, and I always value input on either side. I moved the smashes out because there seems to be a lack of the amount of stoneforge decks around lately, but I may move them back in just because of their versatility.

I forgot to ask you before about your 11/9 land split and whether you had a story behind the reasoning?
Do you have any secret sideboard tech you've acquired over the years playing burn?
I know that I've found some small little things that may find their way into the meta currently. Feel free to argue with or ask me anything you'd like going forward, I value all input from experienced point of views. This thread has actually been pretty slow lately and I appreciate the presence you've made here.

JPettie
11-20-2013, 06:29 PM
Hi guys ...what do you think about this deck list ? 19 lands enough for the 3 vortex + 2 volcanic fallout ?
17 mountain
2 barbarian ring

4 vexing devil
4 goblin guide
2 volcanic fallout
4 lightning bolt
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
4 price of progress
4 flame rift
4 fireblast
3 sulfuric vortex

Side
4 pyroblast
3 pirostatic pillar
3 smash to smithereens
2 ensnaring bridge
3 faerie macabre

Thanks all.

I am not sure what you are running the Fallouts main for, could you give me a reasoning behind that choice?
I would suggest at least 20 Mountains when you run Sulfuric Vortex. If you can afford to go fetches, I would suggest that over Barbarian Ring. As for the sideboard, I would consider exchanging something to put in a 3rd Bridge, Bridge is amazing and people forget about its existence now and then. If I had to run fetchless burn tomorrow, I probably wouldn't even run Barbarian Ring in the deck, but that is because of my personal experience in getting Wasteland'd because I had one and losing a game to a card that our deck shouldn't lose to.

Nevarine
11-20-2013, 09:18 PM
I tend to stay away from Vexing, and down to 8 creatures because of Deathrite, Grim defeats it in a fight and that's the way I like it, I don't want them using my creatures to lose the game for me. I actually rarely ever board out Flame Rift, I personally believe it is the reason the deck works, it curves perfectly, and is one of my favorite cards in the deck. I find Pithing Needle to be good against Painter decks as well, but the match up is already hugely in our favor, so sideboarding against it can be almost anything good in different forms of hate. I'm on the border when it comes to Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap, I hate to lose a game turn 1-2 because I have a Pyrostatic Pillar in my hand, but I do believe it has good uses against other decks where Mindbreak Trap may not be so ideal. It can be pretty devastating against Elves as well, but I've Mindbreak'd Elves players before and won games because of it. It is an internal war on those 2 combo hate cards for me, and may always be one, and I always value input on either side. I moved the smashes out because there seems to be a lack of the amount of stoneforge decks around lately, but I may move them back in just because of their versatility.

I forgot to ask you before about your 11/9 land split and whether you had a story behind the reasoning?
Do you have any secret sideboard tech you've acquired over the years playing burn?
I know that I've found some small little things that may find their way into the meta currently. Feel free to argue with or ask me anything you'd like going forward, I value all input from experienced point of views. This thread has actually been pretty slow lately and I appreciate the presence you've made here.

Glad I can be of help.

In terms of the 11/9 split, it did arise over time. I found that often matches are just a race and life is important. Stifle is a real card as well. I played 6 delver decks that all had stifle and had it catch a few fetches (some hands just can't play around the card). In the end its really a minor thing and as long as you have 10-12 I think your fine. Just remember to play your lands very differently though if you board in searing blaze.

Ace/Homebrew
11-22-2013, 09:20 PM
Testing confirmed your advice! Lavamancer is better than Devil, therefore fetches.

I wanted to ignore Stifle and play with Mountains. In testing, Wasteland on Ring when lands were scarce sucked... And Lavamancer would have done more damage over the course of the game than the immediate 4 from Devil.

Good advice guys! Thank you. :wink:

Captain Hammer
11-25-2013, 04:54 AM
Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
18 Mountain

JPettie
11-25-2013, 03:47 PM
Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
18 Mountain

Without fetch lands, Grim Lavamancer can be pretty lackluster in most circumstances, I would suggest lowering the count to 0-2 Grim Lavamancers and adding in Hellspark Elemental or Keldon Marauders based on what you would rather have, some would suggest Vexing Devil, and that is up to the player themselves to choose, I prefer to stay away from Vexing Devil for now. Gitaxian Probe can be very good, but you don't always replace it with a damage spell by drawing, and if it gets countered, its pretty bad for you, taking 2 and not doing any damage or getting any benefit from it, although if it does find warrant in your opponents mind to counter it, maybe it just opens another line for you to deal lethal because they wasted a counter. I have been personally testing Gitaxian Probe and I am still on the fence about its use, and the only card I would even consider removing to place it in the deck would be Rift Bolt. This could be very wrong, but sometimes a Rift Bolt can be a turn late and the worst top deck you could pull in a game you had the win in. I would suggest that you add in some number of lands, either go to 19 or 20, to support the curve of playing Sulfuric Vortex, but since you are only running 2, and I prefer 3 myself, I may be wrong in adding lands to the deck. Overall, the deck is not completely off, it is burn in essence, but I would be careful with the Grim Lavamancers in a deck without fetch lands, 4 seems like a lot.

On a side note:
This is a sideboard I've been playing with lately, and plan to test, if anyone has any opinions on it, please let me know.

2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Pyroclasm

I am not sure if I want Volcanic Fallout or Pyroclasm to be the 15th card, also keep in mind that my 3rd Ensnaring Bridge is mainboard right now.

Ace/Homebrew
11-26-2013, 08:42 PM
I had a very poor day using Burn over the weekend, but that was entirely due to my inexperience with the deck. The deck itself felt very powerful in the current meta and I enjoyed the games I played, which is not typical when I am losing. I believe my problem was over-sideboarding. I tend to do that when starting out with a deck. I see sideboard cards with application in the match and want to fit them all in...

I used Nevarine's 75, only changing 2 cards in the sideboard
(-Pyroblast, -Pyrostatic Pillar; +Sulfur Elemental, +Sulfuric Vortex)

I am sold on Pillar! I loved swapping Vortex out for Pillar against combo and RUG. I learned the hard way that sticking a 2nd Pillar is NOT a good idea... :rolleyes:

I would cut the Vexing Devil from the main 60, although I admit I am still unsure what should take its place. Maybe Shard Volley? I would also cut the 4th Vortex I shoved into the sideboard.

Questions!!
Is Deathrite Shaman a 'must kill' creature for us? I am guessing it is...
Other than S+T and Reanimator, what matches do you bring Bridge in? What do you take out?
When boarding in Smash to Smithereens and Searing Blaze, what do you take out?
Scenario:
Against Death and Taxes, you have a Lavamancer and X number of Bolts in your hand. You have a Lavamancer on board with fodder in the bin. Opponent has a Revoker naming Lavamancer and more than 10 life. Do you Bolt the Revoker to enable the Lavamancers or throw damage at face?


This is a sideboard I've been playing with lately, and plan to test, if anyone has any opinions on it, please let me know.

2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Pyroclasm

What does the Shattering Spree do for you? I understand how it gets around CotV@1, but in that case, you are still spending :r::r: but you do not get the added benefit of 3 damage to the opponent. Otherwise I appreciate the diversity for testing out a variety of options.

Looking for everyone's opinion here: Anger of the Gods
Is this new card better than the other sweepers we have (Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout)? Is the exile clause (to stop lifegain with DRS) + no face-damage better than uncounterable + 2 to the face?

Justin
11-27-2013, 11:15 AM
See my comments below in bold.


I had a very poor day using Burn over the weekend, but that was entirely due to my inexperience with the deck. The deck itself felt very powerful in the current meta and I enjoyed the games I played, which is not typical when I am losing. I believe my problem was over-sideboarding. I tend to do that when starting out with a deck. I see sideboard cards with application in the match and want to fit them all in...

I used Nevarine's 75, only changing 2 cards in the sideboard
(-Pyroblast, -Pyrostatic Pillar; +Sulfur Elemental, +Sulfuric Vortex)

I am sold on Pillar! I loved swapping Vortex out for Pillar against combo and RUG. I learned the hard way that sticking a 2nd Pillar is NOT a good idea... :rolleyes:

I would cut the Vexing Devil from the main 60, although I admit I am still unsure what should take its place. Maybe Shard Volley? I would also cut the 4th Vortex I shoved into the sideboard.

I believe that Devil and Shard Volley are both sub-optimal for Burn. What else is in your list?

Questions!!
Is Deathrite Shaman a 'must kill' creature for us? I am guessing it is...

An early DRS is a must kill. Use a bolt spell and get it off the board. You might be able to ignore a late DRS if you are within striking distance of winning. But yeah, the prevalence of DRS makes Burn a worse deck in Legacy.

Other than S+T and Reanimator, what matches do you bring Bridge in? What do you take out?
When boarding in Smash to Smithereens and Searing Blaze, what do you take out?

What you take out depends on your specific matchup. What deck are you playing against? You don't always take the same cards out for artifact hate or whatever else. If your opponent's deck has few non-basic lands, take your Price of Progress out. If they don't run many small creatures, take out your Lavamancers.

Scenario:
Against Death and Taxes, you have a Lavamancer and X number of Bolts in your hand. You have a Lavamancer on board with fodder in the bin. Opponent has a Revoker naming Lavamancer and more than 10 life. Do you Bolt the Revoker to enable the Lavamancers or throw damage at face?

If you have enough gas in your hand to get your opponent to zero life, you can ignore the Revoker and aim what you have at your opponent's head. If you don't have enough gas, kill the Revoker with a bolt spell and hopefully your Lavamancer will live long enough to help get you there.

What does the Shattering Spree do for you? I understand how it gets around CotV@1, but in that case, you are still spending :r::r: but you do not get the added benefit of 3 damage to the opponent. Otherwise I appreciate the diversity for testing out a variety of options.

I prefer Smash to Smithereens because it damage players as well as destroys artifacts, something that Spree does not do. Smash gets around COTV@1 and kills it, while damaging the opponent. The only decks that Spree is better against are those that run a lot of artifacts such as Affinity or MUD, but those decks don't see a lot of play, so you should sideboard Smash to Smithereens instead.

Looking for everyone's opinion here: Anger of the Gods
Is this new card better than the other sweepers we have (Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout)? Is the exile clause (to stop lifegain with DRS) + no face-damage better than uncounterable + 2 to the face?

Like artifact hate, I prefer sweepers that can damage the opponent. Anger of the Gods doesn't do this. Go for Volcanic Fallout or Flamebreak instead.

AznSeal
11-28-2013, 03:18 AM
It seems to me that the legacy metagame has shifted heavily in favor of fair decks. That means that one of my favorite decks is finally well positioned in the metagame! Opinions on Boros or Burn? I feel like all the fair decks are busy trying to metagame against each other with TNN and all that and i'm just sitting here throwing lightning bolts.

Is there anything that boros offers that's better than straight burn? I feel like going dual lands and creatures opens us up for removal and wasteland. More importantly, I think with the emergence of TNN based fair decks, having creatures is suboptimal because TNN is a ridiculous blocker.

On the flipside, Steppe Lynx is ridiculous. I feel like using Steppe Lynx makes removal spells from fair decks like STP, bolt, or abrupt decay that much more relevant, but at the same time, the explosive power steppe lynx provides is really good. Mono red burn, my current list, averages a turn 4-5 kill. With Steppe Lynx, the goldfish is faster by roughly 0.5 - 1 turns. But is it worth the added enemy removal being useful....and going white opens the deck up to wasteland..decisions decisions.

Anyways, here is my current list.

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Boros Charm
3 Fireblast

4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
3 Mountain

CabalTherapy
11-28-2013, 03:29 AM
.and going white opens the deck up to wasteland


If you are smart enough and use your fetchlands wise then Wasteland becomes irelevant against Boros.
Just play 3 Plateaus and 11/12 fetchlands (all on red, including 4 Arid Mesa) and you can laugh at Wasteland.

Lava Spike Spiegel
11-29-2013, 10:51 PM
I'm in a bit of a budget conundrum, right now I'm only running 4 fetchlands (I intend to acquire more, just a budget issue atm) so running 4 Grim Lavamancers is probably exacerbating the suboptimal nature of my burn. Given the prevalence of Deathrite Shaman, I don't want to go with Hellspark Elemental, which leaves Keldon Marauders.

This is my deck before adjustments:

4x Bloodstained Mire
16x Mountain

4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer

4x Sulfuric Vortex

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike :wink:
4x Price of Progress
4x Flame Rift
4x Fireblast

This is the adjustment I was thinking of making:

-2x Grim Lavamancer
-1x Sulfuric Vortex
+3x Keldon Marauders

Giving up that fourth Vortex is what's troubling me the most. :frown:

AmokPL
11-30-2013, 08:28 AM
I still believe Mr Pettie's version is the most optimal. My only preference is running split of 2 Vortexes and 2 Skullcracks (instead of his 3 Vortexes and maindecked Bridge) as I find overabundance of Sulfuric's troublesome in the first few turns (which are the most important). Skullcracks serve as a surprise and instant, one-turn vortex. In worst scenario they are just a bit more expensive Spike.<

Also sb is a completely personal choice. I run 3bridges, 3macabres, 3rebs, 3smashes and 3fallouts but would like to hear opinions regarding needles and shushers. do we still need gobbos?

Captain Hammer
12-03-2013, 01:15 AM
Your list sounds very solid. Do you mind posting the full list?

AmokPL
12-03-2013, 07:10 AM
Here it is:

//Creature (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer


//Enchantment (2)
2 Sulfuric Vortex

//Instant (14)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Skullcrack

//Sorcery (16)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

//Land (20)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain



SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout

I'm happy with main list as the deck is as aggressive as it can be. Still toying with sb though.

JPettie
12-03-2013, 01:58 PM
Here it is:

//Creature (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer


//Enchantment (2)
2 Sulfuric Vortex

//Instant (14)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Skullcrack

//Sorcery (16)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

//Land (20)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain



SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout

I'm happy with main list as the deck is as aggressive as it can be. Still toying with sb though.

Could you explain the split on Sulfuric and Skullcrack in more depth?
How vital have the Volcanic Fallouts been in general, and what match-ups do you find you need them in?

AmokPL
12-04-2013, 12:46 PM
As I said before I treat Skullcracks as an instant one-turn version of Vortex. When I was playing 3-4 Vortexes I got flooded with it so many times I decided to cut it. Vortex itself is not a gamebreaker. Having four copies of it increases chances of getting it soon but ideally on turn 3 I wouldn't want to drop it just to have it Dazed or Decayed and have a blank turn. It WILL get countered most of the times. I like to draw it when I realize the game will last longer. Opponent held his ground, most likely got rid of all counters, denying my finishing spells. Yes, then you drop Vortex and try again.

Playing Burn, every turn you didn't deal damage is a big step towards losing the game. My approach is to throw all I have in opponent's face ASAP to get him killed turn 3-4. If he manages to drop f.e Batterskull and try to attack to get more life - I will Skullcrack his head denying his lifegain, hitting for 3 and killing him next turn. The longer the game goes, the lesser your chances for winning it. Having two Vortexes on turn 2-3 is not a good hand despite Vortex being a good (also slow) card

Volcanic Fallout is the best answer for aggro decks. Instant, uncounterable, hits flyers. Some Goblin, Elf even Merfolk players in my area would agree.

WorldslayerGuy
12-04-2013, 05:47 PM
Deciding to get back to my Legacy roots, and rebuild Burn. Unfortunately, I'm poor, and can't afford fetches. Since Grim Lavamancer isn't very good without lots of stuff to put in the yard, I'm trying a different direction.


4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Thunderous Wrath
2 Pyrokinesis

3 Sulfuric Vortex

19 Mountain



Wrath is five damage for one off the top, but pretty terrible in hand. To help counter that, I'm running a couple Pyrokinesis to chuck the useless copies and burn some problematic creatures. And hey, it deals four damage! Just enough to kill a Germ token with Batterskull on it. Thoughts?

JPettie
12-05-2013, 02:18 PM
Deciding to get back to my Legacy roots, and rebuild Burn. Unfortunately, I'm poor, and can't afford fetches. Since Grim Lavamancer isn't very good without lots of stuff to put in the yard, I'm trying a different direction.


4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Thunderous Wrath
2 Pyrokinesis

3 Sulfuric Vortex

19 Mountain



Wrath is five damage for one off the top, but pretty terrible in hand. To help counter that, I'm running a couple Pyrokinesis to chuck the useless copies and burn some problematic creatures. And hey, it deals four damage! Just enough to kill a Germ token with Batterskull on it. Thoughts?

I like your idea of pitching it to Pyrokinesis when it is bad, but I feel it is too risky to even run the card, especially with only 2 Pyrokinesis and Pyrokinesis isn't even hitting them in the face. I really think Thunderous Wrath would only work in a brainstorm deck, and even there, it can be a dead card in your hand and you'll lose the game because of it sometime. Here is an idea I am toying with, for a fetchless burn though, if you have any interest in a budget interaction that has been discussed in the past, and could be fun:

Creature (13)


4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Goblin Guide (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/goblin-guide/)
1x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Grim Lavamancer (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/grim-lavamancer/)
4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Hellspark Elemental (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/hellspark-elemental/)
4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Keldon Marauders (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/keldon-marauders/)

Instant (12)


4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Fireblast (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/fireblast/)
4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Lightning Bolt (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/lightning-bolt/)
4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Price of Progress (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/price-of-progress/)

Enchantment (3)


3x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Sulfuric Vortex (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/sulfuric-vortex/)

Sorcery (12)


4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Chain Lightning (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/chain-lightning/)
4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Flame Rift (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/flame-rift/)
4x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Reckless Abandon (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/reckless-abandon/)

Land (20)


20x (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abandon-all-hope/#) Mountain (http://tappedout.net/mtg-card/mountain/)


Cheers,
Jacob

WorldslayerGuy
12-05-2013, 06:38 PM
Running Hellspark and Marauders was going to be the Plan B. Not sure how well the creature-heavier build will do in this metagame.

Fishbowling my list, I wind up with Wrath in my opener too often. Maybe I'll try cutting a copy, for a Lavamancer. Of course, I'd need to get for real-real playtesting in as well.

Lava Spike Spiegel
12-05-2013, 08:04 PM
Thunderous Wrath and Pyrokinesis is clever, Worldslayer, it's a shame Pyrokinesis doesn't also hit the face.

I know this is digging through the bottom of the barrel, but what about Cave-In for some additional player damage at the cost of (maybe) being able to kill a Batterskull token.

WorldslayerGuy
12-05-2013, 08:28 PM
Thunderous Wrath and Pyrokinesis is clever, Worldslayer, it's a shame Pyrokinesis doesn't also hit the face.

I know this is digging through the bottom of the barrel, but what about Cave-In for some additional player damage at the cost of (maybe) being able to kill a Batterskull token.

It'd be good out of the board. Not sure in the main, though. I was trying to think of other Pitch cards that could be run. Cave-In definitely is a possibilty.

MirrorMask
12-06-2013, 12:26 AM
Don't abandon thunderous wrath like that! It is a very good card but in a burn deck (even in a brainstorm deck) you never run 4 copies for obvious reasons. Run only 2 copies and if you feel insecure about it just add 1-2 cave-in which helps against aggro decks and hits the players. I have lost many times due to thunderous wrath. Give the card a chance- it deserves it.

SecondSunrise
12-09-2013, 12:06 PM
Hello everyone.

I'm planning on building a Legacy Burn Deck in preparation for GP Paris next year, as I'm set on attending and have not played much legacy in the last couple of years. A question on the deck:

In your experience, how many fetchlands are needed to support the full playset of lavamancers? Right now I only have access to 4 fetches, since the other red fetchlands are pretty expensive on mtgo... inversely, how many Lavamancers can I run with a manabase of 16 Mountains + 4 Fetchlands?

thx in advance for your answers! :wink:

CabalTherapy
12-09-2013, 12:21 PM
Hello everyone.

I'm planning on building a Legacy Burn Deck in preparation for GP Paris next year, as I'm set on attending and have not played much legacy in the last couple of years. A question on the deck:

In your experience, how many fetchlands are needed to support the full playset of lavamancers? Right now I only have access to 4 fetches, since the other red fetchlands are pretty expensive on mtgo... inversely, how many Lavamancers can I run with a manabase of 16 Mountains + 4 Fetchlands?

thx in advance for your answers! :wink:

That is the problem with burn. People who have money play expensive decks and don't care about burn and people on budget play burn because they have to thus getting bad results with
suboptimal lists. I understand the problem here but nonetheless it is a competetive forum and budget questions do not belong in here. If you cannot affort 10-12 red fetchlands (which are pretty cheap in comparison to others) to support Lavamancer then just play 4 GGuide, 4 VDevil, 4 Marauders/Hellsparks and cut Lavamancer or play Casual.

SecondSunrise
12-09-2013, 03:28 PM
That is the problem with burn. People who have money play expensive decks and don't care about burn and people on budget play burn because they have to thus getting bad results with
suboptimal lists. I understand the problem here but nonetheless it is a competetive forum and budget questions do not belong in here. If you cannot affort 10-12 red fetchlands (which are pretty cheap in comparison to others) to support Lavamancer then just play 4 GGuide, 4 VDevil, 4 Marauders/Hellsparks and cut Lavamancer or play Casual.


Thank you for the quick answer. Just bought 8 fetchlands on mtgo. But from your answer I assume that 10 is the minimal number to support Lavamancers (or at least the full 4) ? Has it been established in this forum that a version running fetchlands is really superior to the "fetchless" versions?

Gaudy
12-09-2013, 03:37 PM
That is the problem with burn. People who have money play expensive decks and don't care about burn and people on budget play burn because they have to thus getting bad results with
suboptimal lists. I understand the problem here but nonetheless it is a competetive forum and budget questions do not belong in here. If you cannot affort 10-12 red fetchlands (which are pretty cheap in comparison to others) to support Lavamancer then just play 4 GGuide, 4 VDevil, 4 Marauders/Hellsparks and cut Lavamancer or play Casual.

well i think with 8 fetch you can run 4 lavamancer any way

WorldslayerGuy
12-09-2013, 05:27 PM
Thank you for the quick answer. Just bought 8 fetchlands on mtgo. But from your answer I assume that 10 is the minimal number to support Lavamancers (or at least the full 4) ? Has it been established in this forum that a version running fetchlands is really superior to the "fetchless" versions?

If your running Lavamancer, you want plenty of stuff in the yard for it. If you want to forego fetches, probably best to find something else.

JPettie
12-10-2013, 03:28 PM
I recently placed 22nd at a 184 player Legacy Tournament on the east coast and wanted to share some insight on matches and where I want to take my list next. Feel free to let me know any thoughts you may have about my sideboard plans and changes for my list going forward. It was 8 rounds and I went 6-2. You can find my list here: http://toacomics.com/blog/2013/12/09/127-top-32-decklists/

Round 1: TES (2-1)
Game 1: Lose die roll, he turn 1 goes off for 10 Goblins. I have a triple goblin guide and 1 grim lavamancer hand, decide to play it out, end up going to 3 with favorable blocks. I get him low but he ends up playing Burning Wish for Grapeshot and next turn kills me with storm at 3. Props to him for thinking of that path to victory.
Game 2: This game he fails to go off and casts Ad Nauseum with not enough life to get much, I price him for 6 and Fireblast for win.
Game 3: I keep Mindbreak Trap hand, and he knows it from Gitaxian Probe turn 1. He gets to 3 lands, and silences me as first spell of turn, not much I can do here. He then pitches the game by playing Duress under Silence and not having enough mana open to go off, he had the win in his land otherwise. I Flame Rift and Fireblast him next turn for win.

Sideboard:
-4 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
+2 Mindbreak Trap

Round 2: RUG Delver (0-2)
Game 1: Lose die roll, he stifles me at least 3 times over the course of the game, even trying to play around it. Out tempo's me with gofys.
Game 2: Mulligan to 5, he has nut draws and out tempos me again, don't seem Grim Lavamancer either game, has counters when I try to kill delvers, Forces Rift Bolt. Rough Game.

Sideboard:
-4 Flame Rift
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast

Round 3: American Delverblade (0-2)
Game 1: Lose die roll, he gets True-Name Nemesis with Jitte online and I don't see a Sulfuric Vortex.
Game 2: I don't see my hate early, and he swords a Grim Lavamancer. I pitch the game by playing a Sulfuric Vortex rather than an Ensnaring Bridge which was in my hand by accident when I am at 3, and lose the game because of it.

Sideboard:
-4 Flame Rift
-4 Goblin Guide
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Smash to Smithereens
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

Round 4: TES (2-1)
Game 1: I win die roll, have 2 goblin guide hand. I win the game before he does anything, he drew a lot of lands he says.
Game 2: He turn 1 storms for 18 goblins, I look at my hand, decide the game is over at that point, go to game 3. Looking back, I should have mulligan for Mindbreak Trap, had Pyrostatic Pillar in hand.
Game 3: I have Mindbreak Trap in seven, he takes it with duress. He then proceeds to play lands and pass turns for 3 turns, and I price him for 8 to win game. Says he got some pretty bad draws and flooded.

Sideboard:
-4 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
+2 Mindbreak Trap

Round 5: ANT (2-0)
Game 1: I beat him before he gets anything going, he Gitaxian Probes me after winning die roll, and says Burn is bad matchup?
Game 2: I keep hand with 1 land, Pyrostatic Pillar, Mindbreak Trap, and Goblin Guide. My first turn I draw another land, play guide, and then next turn I draw another Mindbreak and play Pyrostatic Pillar. The game was over after he laughed at Pyrostatic Pillar being really bad for him and Duresses me for fun, sees both Mindbreak Traps and takes a lava spike as a joke. Fun opponent, and somehow I beat 3 storm decks at this point, I was wondering if Storm was growing on trees that day.

Sideboard:
-4 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
+2 Mindbreak Trap

Round 6: Maverick (2-1)
Game 1: I have a pretty slow hand with Prices, and he gets a huge Knight online before I can kill him, swapping for basics, and Wastelanding his own lands.
Game 2: I land a Bridge and he has nothing, kill him with Price for 6.
Game 3: I land a Sulfuric Vortex and a Bridge, and easily race him with Price and Fireblast in hand.

Sideboard:
-4 Goblin Guide
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Smash to Smithereens

Round 7: RUG Delver (2-1)
Game 1: We end up having a pretty long game, he counters a ton of my stuff with Force for days. I go to 3 because of Tarmogofy, and Nimble, he bolts me on my turn for the win. I am just sitting on Flame Rifts in hand from some pretty unlucky draws.
Game 2: I get a Grim online, and race him. He actually has to block a Goblin Guide with flipped Delver. I price him with Fireblast backup, but he doesn't have the counter.
Game 3: I keep a Tormod's Crypt, double Grim Lavamancer hand with Pyroblast as well. I land Tormod's on my turn with Daze backup of land, Suspend Rift Bolt so he doesn't play any delvers on his turn. He played a Nimble on his first turn, my Tormod seems really good in this matchup at this point and wise I had it in earlier in the day against the other delver player. he doesn't do much but attack for 1 on his turn and lay a land. I play grim on my next turn, and rift bolt resolves. On his next turn, I pyroblast a brainstorm, and he later says this is what probably won me the game, because he drew two lands after not resolving the brainstorm. He plays another Nimble, by the time his Nimbles are at threshold, I crack Tormod and he has 1/1s, and I have 2 grims online to keep any Tarmogofys from being an issue. I top deck a Price, and he has to double Wasteland down to 1 land. Next turn I top deck Lava Spike and he loses.

Sideboard:
-4 Flame Rift
-3 Sulfuric Vortex
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast

Round 8: Merfolk (2-1)
Game 1: He wins die roll, and gets a ton of merfolks online because I can do much.
Game 2: I get him to 4, he has Jitte in play, and plays a True-Name Nemesis, I mess up and don't Pyroblast it. on my next turn, knowing he will equip Jitte and begin to get the game back on his next turn, have to Fireblast my lands away without hesitation of Force, he has Force/Vial/Vial in hand and I get the game.
Game 3: we play back and forth, I block with Goblin Guides and knowing he has Jitte, make him force a Sulfuric Vortex, with Bridge in my hand. Play Bridge on my next turn, when I'm at 2 from a Flame Rift, he has nothing to deal with Bridge mainboard or sideboard, and I have him dead a turn later with Grim activation and Fireblast in hand. He concedes before I win knowing he can't deal with Bridge.

Sideboard:
-2 Flame Rift
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
-4 Price of Progress
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Smash to Smithereens
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

Changes I may make to mainboard:
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Gitaxian Probe

Changes I may make to sideboard:
-2 Faerie Macabre
+1-2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Ensnaring Bridge (If cut from main)

WorldslayerGuy
12-10-2013, 08:38 PM
Congratulations! Especially on 3-0 versus Storm.

Seems like with the metagame moving back towards more "fair" decks, a couple Bridges in the main would come in handy. Especially since you sided them in every non-Storm round.

rickyy
12-10-2013, 09:20 PM
Thank you for the quick answer. Just bought 8 fetchlands on mtgo. But from your answer I assume that 10 is the minimal number to support Lavamancers (or at least the full 4) ? Has it been established in this forum that a version running fetchlands is really superior to the "fetchless" versions?

8 is ok, but 10/12 is better.

ntropy
12-10-2013, 11:53 PM
Game 1: I beat him before he gets anything going, he Gitaxian Probes me after winning die roll, and says Burn is bad matchup?

First off Congrats! Secondly, I don't think Burn is a terrible matchup for ANT, but we do aggressively clock them, and their game plan is to sculpt for a few turns, then win with a Ad Nauseum, which wants a high life total. Clearly they are capable of early wins, and clearly they have ways to win from low life totals, but we definitely put the pressure on them more than some combo decks that either go off earlier (Like TES or Belcher) or don't need their life total (Like Omnitell or Spiral Tide). Just my 2 cents!

anakyn
12-11-2013, 11:29 AM
Secondly, I don't think Burn is a terrible matchup for ANT, but we do aggressively clock them, and their game plan is to sculpt for a few turns, then win with a Ad Nauseum, which wants a high life total.

Not really to be honest: the main road to victory for ANT is not Ad nauseam anymore, but Past in flames loop, which is far more reliable and doesn't need any life point to get going.
This is why graveyard hate comes in handy vs ANT, while it's not that useful vs TES (but it's not bad either).

On the other hand, TES loves to win through an early Ad nauseam, otherwise it goes for a bunch of turn-1 or turn-2 Goblins.


Both matchups should be pretty awful, because TES is simply a couple of turns faster than Burn, while ANT can reliably win on turn 3 with Past in flames.
Also, both decks have plenty of ways to deal with your Mindbreak traps (discard or Silence) or Pyrostatic pillar / Tormod (discard or Chain of vapor or Decay).

Of course you can win the game anyways: they could have horrible hands/draws, they could beat themselves with their own hands (it happens pretty often with inexperienced TES players), you could take them by surprise with Volcanic fallout on goblins, sometimes they could have no answers to your hate...
...but if you meet a good storm player who is NOT extremely unlucky, you should lose.

AmokPL
12-11-2013, 01:20 PM
Congratulations.

Few questions : how is that one MD Bridge working? how is split of Pillars and Traps working? isn't 4 REB/Pyros not to much? was there any game you wished you had mass creature damage like Fallout or Cave In?

I start to think Faeries are not so good, especially against Dredge. I think I will come back to Cages/Crypts.

JPettie
12-11-2013, 03:21 PM
Congratulations.

Few questions : how is that one MD Bridge working? how is split of Pillars and Traps working? isn't 4 REB/Pyros not to much? was there any game you wished you had mass creature damage like Fallout or Cave In?

I start to think Faeries are not so good, especially against Dredge. I think I will come back to Cages/Crypts.

I am really liking the MD Bridge, it seems like my friend above said, that it comes in almost all match ups, and I went over an idea of all the decks in Legacy and the majority of them are decks I want Ensnaring Bridge in for, they can either be a silver bullet, or at least slow a creature heavy opponent down for a turn while I burn them. The 1 mainboard is something I'm growing very fond of and I find the amount of times I would see a 1 of against the very few amount of decks that it is bad against, really doesn't hurt the quality of the card when it can literally win an entire game when it comes down game 1 versus a lot of decks who don't expect it.

I am still testing the split of Pillars and Traps, and I'm liking the results, the real reason for the split, is so I can bring one of them in for other match ups, I want my sideboard to have a lot of versatile options against many different decks, for example the Tormod's Crypt coming in against RUG, can be very good, but its mostly there for the Dredge match up.

My Faeries are there because I believe they are the best answer to a reanimator opponent with Iona. I have the Tormod's as a 1 of so I can bring it in against other decks and I find it a lot better against Dredge than I do the Faeries, but the Faeries are still good against Dredge. I want eloquent and versatile answers to many decks, and I want to surprise myself by seeing the potential for good from cards that originally are there to only beat a certain match up. So my plan is to build interesting sideboards, and test through experience, and surprise myself with cards that seem to be all stars because they can come in against 3 decks, when maybe they were only assumed to be good against 1.

Edit:
To touch on the sweepers momentarily, I really didn't see a match up where I would have wanted them on that particular day, but I always keep in mind where something may have been good and am up for change. I find that paying that much for a spell, I want it to win the game in burn, and that is where my Ensnaring Bridge slot is.

EdsonDettoni
12-14-2013, 10:14 PM
Hi you all,

Sorry if I don't have any report, but that requieres a compromise that I don't have. But reflections on card choices maybe will be helpfull. After a lot of testing, and some changes, this is the best I can do.


A. Burning Bakunin decklist.

18 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

3 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast

1 Magma Jet

4 Sulfuric Vortex

SB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Ashen Rider
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Shattering Spree


B. General concept.

It remains as a "Damage Race" Burn; goldfishing to 20 consistently on turn 4, and keeps swinging to turn 6.

(a) The Core still try to maximize (1) Low Cost, (2) Efficiency, and, (3) Consistency, in (i) mana base and (ii) "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage", "Virtual Card Advantage", and "Threat density".

(b) It has some elements of "Recurring damage": 3 Hellspark Elemental, and 4 Sulfuric Vortex.


C. Card choices:

(a) No Price of Progress. Because its problems with "Guaranteed Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage". Players avoid to hit 2 or more non-basic lands, and there are good decks, like Elves, wich never hit one. That is why I preffer Flame Rift.

(b) 4 Fireblast. I recognize my mistake. 4 damage for 0 casting cost and instant speed is "OP". You need the 4.

(c) 3 Hellspark Elemental. Recurring damage (Unearth) and 3 (or 6) No-lag Guaranteed Damage (haste speed), makes it a very good choice. Better than Keldon Marauders, wich deals only 2 damage of that kind. Unearth is uncounterable as spell. 3 is the right number, 4 makes slow your clock.

(d) No Vexing Devil. I recognize my mistake. No haste speed it is not for a damage race burn.

(e) 4 Spark Elemental. This is a weak card, but harmonizes with the consistency of the average casting cost, "Guaranteed Damage" and "No Lag Damage".

(f) No Grim Lavamancer. It is too slow. You need to burn fast. The only creatures you need to hit are lifelinkers and taxing ones. As a recurring damage card, it is slow too. To hit 6 you need 4 turns; with Hellspark Elemental, only 2.

4 Sulfuric Vortex. A "must". You need to ensure your damage. If not, Burn is useless. And it has recurring damage. Now I run 20 lands because its 3cc.

1 Magma Jet. If the game turns long, you have an opportunity, but must avoid the mountains; except against "Pox".

2 Barbarian Ring. 2 extra non-spell damage it is sweet against control decks.


D. Side Board

(a) Against combo. 4 Pyrostatic Pillar, 4 Angel of Despair, and 4 Faerie Macabre.

(b) Against life gain and others. 3 Shattering Spree it is enough to kill Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskul, Chalice of the Void or sphere of resistance.

(c) Obviously SB depends on meta-game. But it's so tasty to cast 4 Ashen Rider against Show and Tell...


"CYa".

MST negates
12-23-2013, 08:07 AM
Hello all, I created a list of the best potential sideboard options taking into consideration the last 4 big events, which tech worked over how many and how many topped (if applicaple), to maximize our potential for the current meta. Pithing needle would clean up the majority of the rest of the problems, but I'd imagine you'd take some heat for having an 18 card sideboard.

List ignores anything thats a 1-for-x of.
List ignores anything that redirects target-of-1.
List ignores anything that affects creatures, since that's more than likely what I'm taking out.
List ignores anything we can maindeck out of with 1-for-3.

The sideboard:

3 ensnaring bridge
3 tormod's crypt
3 mindbreak trap
3 shattering spree
3 pyroclasm

The decks whose threats were neutralized:

patriot
sneak attack
omnitell
doomsday
all spells
reanimator
goblins
miracle
blade control
threshold UGR
BUG control
team america
deathblade

The decks that weren't(and why):

death and taxes
-spellskite

elves
-scavenging ooze
-rulic thar, the unbound

jund
-scavanging ooze

painters
-spellskite

merfolks
-leyline of sanctity

lands
-zuan orb
-chalice of the void
-glacial chasm

affinity
-tezzeret
-chalice of the void

dredge
-chancellor of the annex
-leyline of sanctity

post ramp
-ulamog, the infinite gyre

pox
-nethervoid

Hope this helps, and hope my first post doesn't bomb with the community. Also, if you'd like to see the list of what was sideboarded for each just let me know(didn't want this post to get too lengthy).

Edit: Sorry, I do not know how to link to cards using their names.

JPettie
12-24-2013, 10:35 AM
Hello all, I created a list of the best potential sideboard options taking into consideration the last 4 big events, which tech worked over how many and how many topped (if applicaple), to maximize our potential for the current meta. Pithing needle would clean up the majority of the rest of the problems, but I'd imagine you'd take some heat for having an 18 card sideboard.

List ignores anything thats a 1-for-x of.
List ignores anything that redirects target-of-1.
List ignores anything that affects creatures, since that's more than likely what I'm taking out.
List ignores anything we can maindeck out of with 1-for-3.

The sideboard:

3 ensnaring bridge
3 tormod's crypt
3 mindbreak trap
3 shattering spree
3 pyroclasm

The decks whose threats were neutralized:

patriot
sneak attack
omnitell
doomsday
all spells
reanimator
goblins
miracle
blade control
threshold UGR
BUG control
team america
deathblade

The decks that weren't(and why):

death and taxes
-spellskite

elves
-scavenging ooze
-rulic thar, the unbound

jund
-scavanging ooze

painters
-spellskite

merfolks
-leyline of sanctity

lands
-zuan orb
-chalice of the void
-glacial chasm

affinity
-tezzeret
-chalice of the void

dredge
-chancellor of the annex
-leyline of sanctity

post ramp
-ulamog, the infinite gyre

pox
-nethervoid

Hope this helps, and hope my first post doesn't bomb with the community. Also, if you'd like to see the list of what was sideboarded for each just let me know(didn't want this post to get too lengthy).

Edit: Sorry, I do not know how to link to cards using their names.

I understand you did not want to post a lengthy comment, but you got some explaining to do. What last 4 big events are you talking about, I have done a small conveyance of result pages, I will list them below, and I've found only one deck in the entire set of them that I went through, at least 35 decklists, had Pyroclasm. Only my own decklist had Tormod's Crypt and it was a 1 of. I believe if you journey over to salvation, as well as ask people here, that most will find that Tormod's Crypt is good in certain match ups, but against reanimator it is a much worse Faerie Macabre in most cases, especially since it is counter-able. Additionally, you have placed Shattering Spree in the "best potential" sideboard and said that it does not help against Chalice of the Void, which it does, by replicating. I am also wondering how the sideboard deals with Omnitell?

Overall, I appreciate your post and welcome you to the community, and mean no ill will with my counter post. Please continue to contribute and I am very glad to have you join us. :)

The lists I surveyed:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Burn&format=Legacy
http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=20

MST negates
12-24-2013, 01:46 PM
My apologies if it appeared I was listing sidedeck options that were used w/ burn in the events I was speaking of, which were the following:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12418
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12428
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12358
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12283

The sidedeck options I picked were what I believed would work best for those specific events among those who topped should future pilots mirror those decisions. You are right about chalice of the void vs. shattering spree (after doing a quick google search I facepalmed). I would also agree about the tormod's vs faerie, though personally I would probably run surgical extraction. There was only one omnitell deck that topped, http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12418&iddeck=91004. With that specific deck and the duel I was able to watch the best the sideboard could do is bring in mindbreak and ensnaring bridge, mindbreak his bounce and ensnaring bridge with show and tell or at earliest capability. Though one could run ashen rider if they wanted very specific hate cards.

feline
12-30-2013, 10:47 AM
Burn, 2013, & trends

Overall 2013 wasn't as impressive for Burn as it was for the previous, 2012. But the deck still remains in the format, attracting a small handful of some higher end Starcitygames placings. The deck has largely remained setup with 1 of 2 routes:

Some lists run Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Sulfuric Vortex main with the rest compiling of burn.
Other lists run Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, as well as some # of Hellspark Elemental, Keljdon Marauders, Figure of Destiny, & the rest compiling of burn.
Some lists run Fetchlands, some don't, though that is likely do to $ more than anything. The lists that ran Fetchlands averaged 12.

As far as 2014 goes, hopefully it will be a better year for the deck at the open series & other notable large scale events. As burn is one of the most cost efficient decks to enter the format with to actually have some level of success. For all those pushing Burn through the next year, Patrick Sullivan fans and the like, best of luck and burn baby burn!

JPettie
12-31-2013, 06:03 PM
Burn, 2013, & trends

Overall 2013 wasn't as impressive for Burn as it was for the previous, 2012. But the deck still remains in the format, attracting a small handful of some higher end Starcitygames placings. The deck has largely remained setup with 1 of 2 routes:

Some lists run Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Sulfuric Vortex main with the rest compiling of burn.
Other lists run Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, as well as some # of Hellspark Elemental, Keljdon Marauders, Figure of Destiny, & the rest compiling of burn.
Some lists run Fetchlands, some don't, though that is likely do to $ more than anything. The lists that ran Fetchlands averaged 12.

As far as 2014 goes, hopefully it will be a better year for the deck at the open series & other notable large scale events. As burn is one of the most cost efficient decks to enter the format with to actually have some level of success. For all those pushing Burn through the next year, Patrick Sullivan fans and the like, best of luck and burn baby burn!

First off, I really appreciate all you've done with the primer and appreciate your words of praise and hope. I also appreciate you penciling me in on the deck lists that have placed recently. I really do hope that burn will become more successful in 2014 and hope the community grows for the better. I have noticed some of the community has been parted between differing forums, and it would be of great benefit if we all came together at some point, wishful thinking maybe. I believe I have become a much better performer over the course of 2013, and my deck has become quite streamlined in my view. It has taken a lot of testing and turning that practice into performance, but I feel strongly about the deck and its power. I want everyone to know, when it comes to burn, whether it be bad or good placed upon its stage showing, I am here to help in any way, shape, or form. I find as of late the rise in the price of fetch lands has pushed the fetch version of the deck further away from the higher end of the budget deck it used to be and working on budget versions of the deck have to be part of the community as well, even though I do not run that version. Lastly, I will be available on both forums and please do ask of me anything that concerns my favorite deck to play, that challenges my point of views, and encourages conversation constructively.

As a less serious side note, I did notice that in your list of mountains and their prices (by the way I find that an interesting inclusion), that the Arabian Nights version is missing, I personally run a couple and very much enjoy them. Whether that is added or not, I wouldn't mind either. Good luck everyone in 2014, and lets put a price on the progress they pay so much money for. :)

Basara
01-04-2014, 05:29 AM
Has anyone tried playing with young pyromancer??? , i know is not 100% sure granted damage , but he can help chumping for a lot of turns , and the times they dont have big fatties like goyf , elementals can swing for a lot , the creature shell should look like this:

4 Goblin guide
3 young pyromancer
3 grim lavamancer
4 keldon marauders

Lava Spike Spiegel
01-11-2014, 04:30 PM
Has anyone tried playing with young pyromancer??? , i know is not 100% sure granted damage , but he can help chumping for a lot of turns , and the times they dont have big fatties like goyf , elementals can swing for a lot , the creature shell should look like this:

4 Goblin guide
3 young pyromancer
3 grim lavamancer
4 keldon marauders

Isn't it counterproductive to run Keldon Marauders with Young Pyromancer? (i.e. You should run another burn spell in their place.)

Do you win games with it, or is it just a stalling tactic? If the latter, Ensnaring Bridge seems more reliable.

Lyle Hopkins
01-11-2014, 11:29 PM
Has anyone tried playing with young pyromancer??? , i know is not 100% sure granted damage , but he can help chumping for a lot of turns , and the times they dont have big fatties like goyf , elementals can swing for a lot , the creature shell should look like this:

4 Goblin guide
3 young pyromancer
3 grim lavamancer
4 keldon marauders

I did a bit of testing with Young Pyromancer in conjunction with Gitaxian Probe. While I'll jump on any opportunity to play Gitaxian Probe (love that card), I found that Young Pyromancer just didn't help the deck enough to warrant its inclusion. If I'm going to play a creature that doesn't deal damage the turn it comes into play, the utility of Grim Lavamancer gives it the edge, in my opinion. 3 or 4 of each may hinder the deck.

AlbyLegacy
01-13-2014, 12:36 PM
MTG Legacy: Goblins VS Mono Red Burn


http://youtu.be/LY5r6tvegps


youtube.com/albylegacy

Lyle Hopkins
01-13-2014, 09:53 PM
Congratulations to Hugo Villamor for a top 16th finish at SCG Orlando! I love the main deck Searing Blaze for the Delver heavy meta-game. Good start to 2014 for Burn.

Decklist:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62556

FTW
01-14-2014, 12:50 AM
MTG Legacy: Goblins VS Mono Red Burn


http://youtu.be/LY5r6tvegps


youtube.com/albylegacy

Thanks for posting the video.

Some thoughts for game 1:
-Burn shouldn't play Figure. Figure makes you spend mana instead of win the game.
-Goblins should have mulled. T2 Pile is too slow. Shouldn't keep a 7-card hand game 1 without Lackey or Vial.
-Burn player should not ever level Figure to a 4/4 in mainphase... better to do it after Goblins player declares no blockers, otherwise wasted 3 mana
-Burn could have won a FULL TURN earlier. Burn vs Gobs is a race, no reason to slow roll.

WIN1: Instead of making Figure 4/4, cast Sulphuric Vortex on turn 3. Turn 4 go Lightning Bolt + Flame Rift + Fireblast, dies on upkeep.
WIN2: Never cast Figure. T1 Chain Lightning, T2 Flame Rift, T3 Vortex, T4 Bolt + Bolt + Fireblast, dies on upkeep.


Game 2:
When Goblins played Chieftain+Matron(for Chieftain), better to play Matron(for Piledriver)+Piledriver+Piledriver, attack for 17 instead of just 7!!! The only reason not to go for double Pile is if you're worried about Warchief getting burned and losing haste. But...

You go chieftain+Matron for Chieftain and attack:
a) if he has Bolt: he bolts Chieftain and you deal 3 damage. Next turn you cast Chieftain and Piledriver and attack for lethal 15, only 7 if Pile killed
b) no Bolt: attack for 7. Next turn Chieftain+Piledriver and attack for 24, only 13 if Piledriver killed. Not lethal if Pile+Chieftain killed.

You go Matron+2 Piledrivers:
a) if he has Bolt: He Bolts Warchief and you get no attack. Next turn you cast Chieftain and attack for 20, only 12 if a Piledriver killed.
b) no Bolt: attack for 17. Next turn Chieftain and attack for 27, still lethal even if everything is killed but the 1/1 Matron

The 2 Piles one threatens more damage for both a) and b). Basically, even if you're worried about opponent holding burn on your haste guys, double Piledriver is still the better play because you have another hasteloard in hand. Double Piledriver is boss.


Game 3:
- Burn player should have cast Chain Lightning instead of Flame Rift and held 1 mana open, esp when the life totals are close and Goblins is about to explode with Vial@3. Goblins goes Matron+Chieftain+Lackey. Then Burn can Bolt the Chieftain. Goblins no longer has lethal on attack. Burn player untaps and has a chance to draw into the win (I think.. didn't see his whole hand) with 2 Bolt effects + Fireblast.

CabalTherapy
01-14-2014, 02:58 AM
MTG Legacy: Goblins VS Mono Red Burn


http://youtu.be/LY5r6tvegps


youtube.com/albylegacy

Test with another dude. This one is not capable of playing Burn.
Goblinplayer on 11 life, Vortex in play, Burnplayer's hand: Bolt, Spike, Bolt, Figure, Blast, 3 mana = he plays Figure

anakyn
01-14-2014, 06:39 AM
Goblinplayer on 11 life, Vortex in play, Burnplayer's hand: Bolt, Spike, Bolt, Figure, Blast, 3 mana = he plays Figure


LOL, he didn't even need the Vortex to finish him, he had 13 damage in hand against a deck with no counterspells :tongue:

FTW
01-14-2014, 11:38 AM
Test with another dude. This one is not capable of playing Burn.
Goblinplayer on 11 life, Vortex in play, Burnplayer's hand: Bolt, Spike, Bolt, Figure, Blast, 3 mana = he plays Figure

Worse. Two turns earlier, his hand is Vortex, Bolt, Bolt, Flame Rift. 3 mana. He levels up Figure... By the end of turn 4 he had cast a whopping THREE spells.

jmeka
01-14-2014, 01:37 PM
Hello. I'm a first-time poster but long-time fan of The Source. I recently attended SCG Orlando's Legacy Open playing Burn to a Top 32 finish. I just wanted to give credit where credit is due and thank JPettie for the list he recently talked about from this tournament (http://toacomics.com/blog/2013/12/09/127-top-32-decklists/). My list was pretty much the same except I had less fetches and the a few sb changes.

I didn't even want to play in the Legacy event, but some other friends attending the Open convinced me to go, even though I only had Burn built. I thought it would be a mindless day of throwing bolts at people and winning/losing quickly, but what I found out was that the deck really rewards proper sequencing and tight play, like most decks. Maximizing every turn was crucial in some matches I played. I had plenty of fun playing and even had a feature match on camera that was a potential win-and-in (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/494686451 check around the 9:58 mark). Here's a summary of my matches for the day:

R1: Win vs High Tide w/ Reset (2-1)
R2: Win vs Merfolk (2-1)
R3: Loss vs Elves (1-2)
R4: Win vs Dark Maverick (2-1)
R5: Win vs RUG Delver (2-1)
R6: Win vs Jund (2-0)
R7: Win vs Enchantress (2-0)
R8: Loss vs Omni-tell (0-2)
R9: Loss vs T.E.S. (0-2)

The day went about as expected. I won the fair matchups and lost the unfair ones. Going forward, if I were to play the deck again, I'd probably try to find more room for combo hate. I only had the 2/2 split of Mindbreak Traps and Pyrostatic Pillars, but I would like more Traps. If anyone would like any specific info about the matches I played, I'd be more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences. Thanks again to JPettie for the list!

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fireblast

10 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Smash to Smithereens

JPettie
01-14-2014, 11:31 PM
Hello. I'm a first-time poster but long-time fan of The Source. I recently attended SCG Orlando's Legacy Open playing Burn to a Top 32 finish. I just wanted to give credit where credit is due and thank JPettie for the list he recently talked about from this tournament (http://toacomics.com/blog/2013/12/09/127-top-32-decklists/). My list was pretty much the same except I had less fetches and the a few sb changes.

I didn't even want to play in the Legacy event, but some other friends attending the Open convinced me to go, even though I only had Burn built. I thought it would be a mindless day of throwing bolts at people and winning/losing quickly, but what I found out was that the deck really rewards proper sequencing and tight play, like most decks. Maximizing every turn was crucial in some matches I played. I had plenty of fun playing and even had a feature match on camera that was a potential win-and-in (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/494686451 check around the 9:58 mark). Here's a summary of my matches for the day:

R1: Win vs High Tide w/ Reset (2-1)
R2: Win vs Merfolk (2-1)
R3: Loss vs Elves (1-2)
R4: Win vs Dark Maverick (2-1)
R5: Win vs RUG Delver (2-1)
R6: Win vs Jund (2-0)
R7: Win vs Enchantress (2-0)
R8: Loss vs Omni-tell (0-2)
R9: Loss vs T.E.S. (0-2)

The day went about as expected. I won the fair matchups and lost the unfair ones. Going forward, if I were to play the deck again, I'd probably try to find more room for combo hate. I only had the 2/2 split of Mindbreak Traps and Pyrostatic Pillars, but I would like more Traps. If anyone would like any specific info about the matches I played, I'd be more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences. Thanks again to JPettie for the list!

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fireblast

10 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Smash to Smithereens

I played a tournament recently with less success, and it happens to me from time to time and I chalk it up and learn from it. I personally love the deck and my point to make is I have been feeling like going to 4 traps again, to be honest, the split was still in a testing phase for me. I haven't really decided which is best yet. I am curious as to if you brought the combo hate in against elves as well, meaning the traps/pillars. The split is helpful in that match up, and Grim Lavamancer is house. I would love to hear more specifically about how my list worked out for you (the ensnaring mainboard especially) and what changes you were thinking about after the tournament played out. Lastly, I am very glad to have helped you and congratulate you on your superb finish. I have a brew I've been working on lately and soon I will let everyone in the loop in regards to it. :)

jmeka
01-15-2014, 12:45 AM
I played a tournament recently with less success, and it happens to me from time to time and I chalk it up and learn from it. I personally love the deck and my point to make is I have been feeling like going to 4 traps again, to be honest, the split was still in a testing phase for me. I haven't really decided which is best yet. I am curious as to if you brought the combo hate in against elves as well, meaning the traps/pillars. The split is helpful in that match up, and Grim Lavamancer is house. I would love to hear more specifically about how my list worked out for you (the ensnaring mainboard especially) and what changes you were thinking about after the tournament played out. Lastly, I am very glad to have helped you and congratulate you on your superb finish. I have a brew I've been working on lately and soon I will let everyone in the loop in regards to it. :)

I definitely brought in the Pillars against the elves matchup, and I think I brought in some bridges to stop Craterhoof Behemoth/Progenitus. That matchup is definitely winnable, but I think I made a mistake game one where, on the play, I decided not to kill his turn one Llanowar Elf, and on his turn 2, he dumped his hand into a turn 3 Gaea's Cradle-powered Craterhoof.

The MD Bridge only came up against my RUG Delver opponent. He had a triple Tarmogoyf draw, and failed to Brainstorm for a Force of Will when I cast the Bridge. Granted, I had 3 cards in my hand after I cast the Bridge, and his Goyfs were 3/4s, but he did not expect my Fireblast to negate his attacks on his turn. It was a pretty sweet play, and my opponent was definitely caught off guard by it.

Going forward, if I were to play the deck again, I'd try to mess with only playing 2 Vortex maindeck. Drawing multiples is pretty horrible, as you could see in my feature match. Perhaps I'd like to try a beefy creature like Keldon Marauders, Vexing Devil, or Figure of Destiny. The deck is very cold to Leyline of Sanctity, though I beat one vs the Enchantress player, solely based on my board presence of 2 Goblin Guides and 2 Grim Lavamancers. More creatures would help in that fight vs Leyline. Also, like I mentioned before, I think I would up the Mindbreak Trap count to 4 and maybe shave some graveyard hate slots. It's a metagame call though.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention another Burn player that finished higher than me. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62556

JPettie
01-15-2014, 09:40 AM
I definitely brought in the Pillars against the elves matchup, and I think I brought in some bridges to stop Craterhoof Behemoth/Progenitus. That matchup is definitely winnable, but I think I made a mistake game one where, on the play, I decided not to kill his turn one Llanowar Elf, and on his turn 2, he dumped his hand into a turn 3 Gaea's Cradle-powered Craterhoof.

The MD Bridge only came up against my RUG Delver opponent. He had a triple Tarmogoyf draw, and failed to Brainstorm for a Force of Will when I cast the Bridge. Granted, I had 3 cards in my hand after I cast the Bridge, and his Goyfs were 3/4s, but he did not expect my Fireblast to negate his attacks on his turn. It was a pretty sweet play, and my opponent was definitely caught off guard by it.

Going forward, if I were to play the deck again, I'd try to mess with only playing 2 Vortex maindeck. Drawing multiples is pretty horrible, as you could see in my feature match. Perhaps I'd like to try a beefy creature like Keldon Marauders, Vexing Devil, or Figure of Destiny. The deck is very cold to Leyline of Sanctity, though I beat one vs the Enchantress player, solely based on my board presence of 2 Goblin Guides and 2 Grim Lavamancers. More creatures would help in that fight vs Leyline. Also, like I mentioned before, I think I would up the Mindbreak Trap count to 4 and maybe shave some graveyard hate slots. It's a metagame call though.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention another Burn player that finished higher than me. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62556

Yeah, the bridge catches people off guard and can definitely just win the game. I have a feeling that Vortex may be only okay right now and is why i am changing the list up that I will show soon after some testing. I saw his list and I wasn't that impressed, I find Searing Blaze to be very awkward most times. It induces poor play I believe, and is flat out dead to some match ups. Don't get me wrong, when it is good, it is really good, but when it is bad, its extremely bad. With that thought of its two sides, it really just doesn't seem to be consistent enough in my eyes, it feels like a Vexing Devil. Honestly, I don't see much Leyline of Sanctity, and I've never flat out lost to one, but the decks that ran them against me were cold to Price of Progress. I am thinking about a small Taiga splash sideboard for Destructive Revelry, but I don't know if that is fully correct. It could however take the spot of Smash right now, it would need testing, which is what I like to do the most.

jmeka
01-16-2014, 05:17 PM
Yeah, the bridge catches people off guard and can definitely just win the game. I have a feeling that Vortex may be only okay right now and is why i am changing the list up that I will show soon after some testing. I saw his list and I wasn't that impressed, I find Searing Blaze to be very awkward most times. It induces poor play I believe, and is flat out dead to some match ups. Don't get me wrong, when it is good, it is really good, but when it is bad, its extremely bad. With that thought of its two sides, it really just doesn't seem to be consistent enough in my eyes, it feels like a Vexing Devil. Honestly, I don't see much Leyline of Sanctity, and I've never flat out lost to one, but the decks that ran them against me were cold to Price of Progress. I am thinking about a small Taiga splash sideboard for Destructive Revelry, but I don't know if that is fully correct. It could however take the spot of Smash right now, it would need testing, which is what I like to do the most.

Revelry might not be the worst. It is definitely worth testing. I might even try out a couple of Simian Spirit Guides in place of a land or some Vortexes, to give the deck a little bit of velocity. At worst, it attacks for two, which is one of my favorite things to do.

LeoCop 90
01-16-2014, 08:35 PM
Please don't play simian spirit guid or other mana accelerators in burn. Our deck is already fast enough , all we need is consistency. Ask yourself this question : how many times i see just two lands in the entire game ? Now imagine if one of those lands was a spirit guide. This would mean that you can cast only a 2 mana spell during the game and then play very slowly with just one land.

You need stable mana to cast your spells. You need at least 2 lands to finish your opponents in a reasonable time. You can't gamble playing spirit guides hoping to accelerate your gameplan.... this lead just to inconsistency.

AmokPL
01-17-2014, 06:42 AM
exactly. why would you need acceleration in a deck with max casting cost 3cc (2-4 spells)???? you need fetches instead to maximize your filtering ability and to be getting only relevant spells (1st turn burn, 2turn burn, burn, 3turn burn, burn, burn)

JPettie - why would you even consider this RG spell? which enchantments you are having problem with?

JPettie
01-17-2014, 09:27 AM
exactly. why would you need acceleration in a deck with max casting cost 3cc (2-4 spells)???? you need fetches instead to maximize your filtering ability and to be getting only relevant spells (1st turn burn, 2turn burn, burn, 3turn burn, burn, burn)

JPettie - why would you even consider this RG spell? which enchantments have you problem with?

It would be primarily for dealing with Leyline of Sanctity, but it would double as Smash to Smithereens because it would take that spot in the side. This could be wrong though, and I will test first as always, never really do anything without testing. I really dislike losing to Wasteland, which is a real thing, so I probably will continue to ignore Leyline of Sanctity.

mustanggt50conv
01-18-2014, 12:32 AM
http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/searingblood.jpg

New toy for fetchless burn decks where Searing Blaze isn't optimal. Thoughts?

WorldslayerGuy
01-18-2014, 12:20 PM
http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/searingblood.jpg

New toy for fetchless burn decks where Searing Blaze isn't optimal. Thoughts?

Maybe out of the sideboard. But like Searing Blaze, it's going to be dead in a number of match-ups.

LeoCop 90
01-18-2014, 03:12 PM
Oh , i actually think that searing blood is better than searing blaze (wizard is not so creative in naming cards i guess XD ).

Given that i would play them in sideboard, when i board in searing blood to kill delver/mystic/deathrite/confidant i am sure that it is always a live card because it doesn't require landfall.
Obviously searing blaze is better if you have to kill x/3 creatures ( but who plays wild nacatl anymore ? ) or if you want to play it main deck (just hit any creature and you guarantee 3 damages to the face also if the creature doesn't die), but i wouldn't play it main deck.

Lyle Hopkins
01-19-2014, 06:46 PM
I am thinking about a small Taiga splash sideboard for Destructive Revelry, but I don't know if that is fully correct. It could however take the spot of Smash right now, it would need testing, which is what I like to do the most.

I just played a 20 person tournament where another fellow Burn player made top 8 with two main deck Taigas and Destructive Revelry in the sideboard. With the amount of Delver decks right now, I'm not sure if I want to risk opening myself up to Wasteland, but Destructive Revelry looked pretty good against U/W Miracles playing Energy Field and Leyline of Sanctity.

ceustice
01-20-2014, 02:46 PM
I just played a 20 person tournament where another fellow Burn player made top 8 with two main deck Taigas and Destructive Revelry in the sideboard. With the amount of Delver decks right now, I'm not sure if I want to risk opening myself up to Wasteland, but Destructive Revelry looked pretty good against U/W Miracles playing Energy Field and Leyline of Sanctity.

I really like this idea, I may try it out.

tuulisiipi
01-20-2014, 05:45 PM
Hello all and thank you for this great thread. I have enjoyed burn for sometime now. BUG delver match up is really hard for me, any idea to get it better? What to side in and out? My list is currently:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fireblast

9 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

SB
4x pyroblast (meta choise atm)
3x smash to smithereens
2x ensaring bridge
2x searing blaze
4x mindbreak trap/pyrostatic pillar (im thinking of cutting these cards for something else. I have tried storm match up and these cards just doesnt make it worth slots on side board)

So any ideas how to get bug delver match up better, what should i put on my sideboard if i remove storm hate?

JPettie
01-21-2014, 02:43 PM
Hello all and thank you for this great thread. I have enjoyed burn for sometime now. BUG delver match up is really hard for me, any idea to get it better? What to side in and out? My list is currently:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fireblast

9 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

SB
4x pyroblast (meta choise atm)
3x smash to smithereens
2x ensaring bridge
2x searing blaze
4x mindbreak trap/pyrostatic pillar (im thinking of cutting these cards for something else. I have tried storm match up and these cards just doesnt make it worth slots on side board)

So any ideas how to get bug delver match up better, what should i put on my sideboard if i remove storm hate?

I would most likely suggest taking out Flame Rift, at least when you sideboard against them. They are an aggro deck as well in some aspects and being able to turn their tide by hitting yourself for 4 can be really bad. I know some people may suggest Searing Blaze, but against the BUG variant, it will only be hitting the 4 of Delvers. If you are replacing your storm hate, I would suggest thinking about your graveyard hate suite, because currently you do not have any. Something like Tormod's Crypt can be very good against Dredge/Reanimator, and it can also come in against BUG as a 1-2 of, to keep their Nimble/Gofys smaller. Bridges are also a big part of this match up, but if they run Abrupt, which they can, it can make it pretty lackluster but at the same time, it is still relevant. If I take your current mainboard and fake a sideboard, I can give you an idea of a sideboarding plan below:
-4 Flame Rift
-3 Sulfuric Vortex
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Pyroblast

I would only agree to remove storm hate if your meta has no storm players, I find that match up to be very rough for burn. I have a positive record overall against storm with my deck and most of the time winning against them did not require a Mindbreak Trap because they usually go on the discard plan Game 2/3 anyway and are slower out of the gate. Although I still find it to be a very significant thing to have around, when it does work, it is a blow out against them.