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mossivo1986
03-30-2013, 04:09 AM
Have had alot of success with this list

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter

// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
1 [GP] Repeal
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [ISD] Unburial Rites
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
4 [SH] Mana Leak
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [M12] Gideon Jura
SB: 2 [MPR] Damnation
SB: 2 [WWK] Rest for the Weary
SB: 1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [NPH] Torpor Orb
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [FD] Etched Oracle


The board still needs some work. Im intentionally testing a very greedy control board to weed out the cards that just arnt that good for modern. Test and we shall see. I need to cut one or two cards for additional removal in the main I think, but im not positive on that. Let me know what you think.

cab0747
11-05-2013, 10:12 AM
I played against this last night. I had no idea what was going on.

It seems very fun to play! Any updates to this?

YamiJoey
11-11-2013, 09:12 AM
So there doesn't seem to be a 4-colour Gifts thread anywhere else, so I figured I'd post my build.

// Spells: 24
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
1 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Lingering Souls

1 Damnation
4 Gifts Ungiven

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

// Lands: 26
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Buried Ruin
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb

// Sideboard
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Torpor Orb
2 Lingering Souls
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict

I may swap the Verdict in the board for Day of Judgement. I've not tested this enough to know whether or not Verdict is reliably castable.

The basics come from having 4 Deathrite Shaman, 4 Path to Exile, 4 Discard Spells, 3 Abrupt Decay, 4 Liliana of the Veil, and 4 Gifts Ungiven. If you open with some stable combination of these cards and Lands, the game should go pretty well. Shaman -> Ashiok has so far been one of the best on the plays against a blind opponent, even now taking priority over the Liliana. Zhe ticks up so high, so fast, zhe becomes incredibly difficult to burn out, and when they aim things at hen instead of you or Shaman you basically just win the game because of how many Lands you get into play before you actually have to start playing real Magic. When you have protection for hen she takes over the game so much faster than any other Planeswalker. My favourite thing to do so far has been to steal a Snapcaster Mage to Flashback a Gifts Ungiven that was countered.

Your package Spells consist of Raven's Crime, Life from the Loam, Lingering Souls, Batterskull, and Engi', with Buried Ruin, Tar Pit, Ghost Quarter, and Tec Edge as part of your Loam strategies. There's then just a pair of Snapcaster Magi for random value and additional pressure against Control. He's doing a lot of work when you get Gifts draws against Control, where you can bait a couple of counterspells out, and then EoT Gifts into a Cryptic -> Snap Gifts at Sorcery Speed to get set up. It takes a lot of work for them to come back from that. There's then just a lone Damnation to help shore up against the aggressive decks. I may look into pitching a Snapcaster Mage and something else for the pair of Wraths from the board (or Infest, as that may just be better than the Day/Verdict).

Your mana is generally sketchy, but the numbers work out quite well for you to have mana when you need it. I've sadly not been able to test out a Horizon Canopy, but I feel that it is a necessary addition. It seems way too good to be able to draw Spells from your Loam, or even just draw Loam at Instant Speed in response to things. It's not uncommon for me to put a Tar Pit into play tapped on T1, into a colourless Land, and then win that game. The deck rewards you for patience and good threat analysis, and my only loss to Graveyard hate has come from a quad-Shaman into Scooze draw from a BG player, but that was a slightly different version of the deck that was much more reliant on Loam. (Though I also had double Damnation in that version, so swings.) Also Buried Ruin is vastly better than Academy Ruins when you're playing Life from the Loam.

Out of the board you have some fairly specific cards. Spellbomb, Stony Silence, Torpor Orb, and Creeping Corrosion all seem fairly obvious. There's hate for faster decks in there, and there's plenty of hate for combo when paired with the discard Spells and Needle. Spellskite helps against both Aggro and Splinter Twin, especially if you can aggressively find your Loam/Buried Ruin combo. (Loam, Ruin, Skite, Orb kills Twin nice and dead.)

I like to bring Nihil Spellbomb in against control, as it shuts off Snapcaster Mages and things like Crucible of Worlds which I expect them to bring in against me, and acts as another good way of just cycling through the deck via Loam. That might not be as necessary if we get Horizon Canopy in the mix, but it's always worth noting, and definitely a use until I can actually get my hands on one. The Lingering Souls could possibly be swapped for other cards. Right now they act as general filler slots for when we have more to take out than we need to bring in, and Lingering Souls is generally fine in those MU's. It's good Vs control, as unless they Elecrolyze them we're managing to cast multiple Spells for only half the amount of cards, and even then you're forcing their Elecro's to hit half a card instead of a full card like DRS, meaning two Electo's cantripping Vs your Lingering Souls is still vastly superior to them both hitting a DRS or something. My specific patterns (which are in no way exactly defined and do alter depending one the exact player I face) are:

// Patriot Control
-2 Path to Exile
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Damnation
-1 Engineered Explosives
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Lingering Souls

//Splinter Twin
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
-1 Lingering Souls
-1 Batterskull
+1 Thoughtseize
+2 Spellskite
+1 Torpor Orb

// Birthing Pod - This is the MU I struggle most with as far as boarding is concerned. I'm never sure if what I'm doing is right or not.
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pithing Needle
1 Torpor Orb
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict

// Jund (Anything BGx) - This also feels very wrong. I'm not entirely sure if I was awake when I wrote this down. I've currently not had a very good record against this deck.
-1 Path to Exile
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Damnation
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Lingering Souls

// Tron
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Path to Exile
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Lingering Souls
-1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Stony Silence
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict

// Affinity
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Raven's Crime
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pithing Needle
2 Stony Silence
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict

As I said, these are in no way definitive, and I change my sideboard often to reflect how I expect things to turn out, and sometimes I'll be playing all the Spirits in the main, sometimes Ashiok can get into the board, and whatever; these are just general guidance notes.

kombatkiwi
11-11-2013, 09:17 PM
The Ashiok is an interesting choice but to me it feels more like a sideboard card. I can see a lot of matchups where it is rather poor. Against midrange and control I guess it's fine but against affinity, twin etc I can't see it doing much of anything

I guess Buried Ruin could be better than academy, especially in situations where you need to have your card 'right now' but I'm not totally convinced by this, mostly because it makes recurring explosives kind of awkward.

The biggest thing I'm confused about is the decision to eschew the unburial rites package, which most players would see as an essential part of the deck. It gives you the ability to switch roles in the middle of a game very easily and it's a strong trump that beats a lot of the meta. If you're super afraid of graveyard hate then I wouldn't even be playing this deck because lategame your loam is such an important part of your gameplan and you become basically just a worse UWR if it gets hit by DRS/scooze.

Apart from that I would tweak the numbers on path/souls/liliana etc but a lot of that is a meta call anyway

Some of your sideboarding decisions are really odd too (why are you boarding point discard in against jund, why are you boarding an abrupt decay out against twin, etc)

YamiJoey
11-13-2013, 05:01 AM
I see more of the White Twin decks coming up rather than the traditional UR Tempo things, and Decay doesn't hit any of their combo pieces apart from Bell Ringer, which they play less of. The UR Twin deck did really well at the GP, so maybe that's not going to happen, but that was the build I was preparing for. Vs the version that wins with 3-drops Decay is obviously incredible.

Ashiok is in there to mainboard against the MU's I'm generally bad against. When they're more focused on not dying to Ashiok, they're more prone to the rest of the plan, and if they attack my Loam strategy zhe takes over the game. Except when they cast Abrupt Decay, but that's always an issue, so I just -2 hen as soon as possible.

Buried Ruin over Academy Ruins is purely because once you have your engine online, you basically just dump all of your lands into play. Engi will cost at most 6 if you're blowing up 4-drops, but usually costs 4 or 5. The additional cost of sacrificing a Land is rarely an issue. You don't necessarily have to crack it straight away anyway, so it generally doesn't bother me. The fact that it also is entirely colourless is also not irrelivant with a manabase like this.

The lack of a reanimation package is a personal choice. The blowout factor of it never seemed as relevant as playing more cards that are generally quite good. You're rarely casting the guys, and the package is dead if ever drawn. You rarely ever just win off the back of them anyway, as they're mostly prone to just being Path'd or whatever. I could look into adding some stuff for it, but I'd be looking at making further changes to shore up the games where you draw the terrible cards in your deck. Everything is supposed to be individually good and work towards a similar plan, and then you grind a game out better than Jund. (But with a weakness to Graveyard hate that Jund is much less prone to.) i do see the advantage of playing "Gifts -> Demon" but I always felt that it was the biggest weakness of the deck.

Discard Vs Jund is because I want to get everyone on zero cards as fast as possible. They have a better suite of cards in the early game, so pulling their hand apart early is a big plan. On the play we get to throw Deathrite Shamans in the bin, and on the draw we still hit Scoozes. In all other cases we hit Thoughtseize, and that's always good. Until we get into topdeck mode, and then I don't care because we should be winning shortly after no-one has any cards left.

Phoenix Ignition
08-12-2014, 03:05 AM
I played this list to a 3-1-1 finish (3-0-1 cutting to top 4 because small tournament)
List:
26 lands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Celestial Colonnade
3 Creeping Tar Pit

3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Damnation
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mana Leak

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn
1 Batterskull

3 Lingering Souls
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime

SB:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Spellskite
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Lingering Souls
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Damping Matrix
1 Wrath of God
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Match 1: Mono Black infect
I don't remember the details but Lingering souls stalled for a couple turns until I reanimated Elesh norn in game 1. Game 2 I just hardcasted a grave titan and that won it.

Match 2: Affinity
Lingering souls stalled until Elesh got hard cast. Game 2 he mulled to 4 and at some point I had Batterskull equipped to a Grave Titan.

Match 3: Burn
Game 1 I died. Game 2 I stabilized at 2 life before drawing into a Leyline with an okay amount of board presence and then hit my Timely reinforcements to put me into a better spot. Game 3 was also pretty close, but he was stuck on 1 land for a while. I stalled with Lingering Souls and some Liliana shenanigans while at ~8 life. Eventually was able to hardcast a Grave Titan and free up some guys to attack with. These were really close games for all 3.

Match 4: ID

Top 4: GBw midrage:
Game 1 I was able to get some great gifts value packages and hardcast Elesh Norn. Elesh died twice but luckily Unburial Rites reanimates twice. Game 2 I got shut down pretty hard by Aven Mindcensor in response to a Gifts. Garruk Ultimate ended it even though I had Grave Titan on board. Game 3 I played around Aven Mindcensors and was able to get some decent value gifts but got screwed on getting double white for the Wrath I needed (also didn't have a green for life from the loam, or a single fetch that game).

Changes:
Wasn't thrilled with Liliana of the Veil, and a lot of GBx decks are splashing white for Lingering Souls making it much worse. I wished I had Darkblast in the maindeck a few times so that's going to be swapped main. Sideboard is kind of meta dependent (a couple burn decks), so I'm going to mess with that a bit too. I'm really considering taking out the Academy Ruins for another fetch, I just don't see myself needing that in a gifts package, and 4c manabase is tough.

Maindeck:
-1 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Dark Blast

Sideboard:
-3 Duress
+1 Timely Reinforcements
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Leyline of Sanctity

nodahero
08-12-2014, 05:24 PM
How is your affinity matchup?

I have been running a Scapeshift/Gifts Ungiven list for a few weeks now and I have been really happy with it. In my list Gifts is strictly for value and lacks any random blow out combinations although I have been considering swapping back to traditional gifts ever since DRS got the axe.

Phoenix Ignition
08-12-2014, 05:42 PM
How is your affinity matchup?

I have been running a Scapeshift/Gifts Ungiven list for a few weeks now and I have been really happy with it. In my list Gifts is strictly for value and lacks any random blow out combinations although I have been considering swapping back to traditional gifts ever since DRS got the axe.

DRS getting the axe is why I decided to run the Gifts combo again, actually, as Scooze is really the only way to fight it and you can usually play around that very easily.

Affinity seems pretty good, honestly. 3 Path + 3 Abrupt Decays and all the other more expensive removal to hit random stuff until you can cast a lingering souls buys you as many turns as you need to get the unbeatable Elesh Norn into play. There's always the chance they just barf their hand onto the table by turn 2 and hit you with instant speed cranial platings, but I don't think many decks can handle Affinity's good day. Game 1 in the above mini-report seems pretty average for both of our decks and I felt good about it (game 2 he mulled to 4 so doesn't count).

Changing around another bunch of cards because I don't think Academy ruins is worth playing with 4c. That means I drop Batterskull for a maindeck Thragtusk (which can be reanimated if necessary), and I'm also taking out Celestial Colonnade since I've never had that much mana and nothing to do with it, and Creeping Tar Pits are there anyway.

26 lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Creeping Tar Pit

3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mana Leak


1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn
1 Thragtusk
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Lingering Souls
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Damping Matrix
1 Wrath of God
1 Hallowed Burial

Phoenix Ignition
08-19-2014, 03:21 PM
Played above list except SB -1 Hallowed Burial (store didn't have one I could buy), +1 Thoughtseize. Tied for first with a 3-1-1 record before top 8.

Round 1 Bye: Lame. Small weekly tournaments are fun since I get to play, not necessarily win.
1-0
Round 2: Mono green Belcher:
I scouted what everyone was playing so knew what was going on. This deck was pretty big for a while online, it plays like 8 lands and a bunch of Rampant Growth effects. Game 1 I thoughtseize on turn 2 to try to maximize my chance of hitting his Goblin Charbelcher, which works. Then I Iona on turn 5 or so on green so he can't thin his deck or cast chump blockers.
Game 2 I have an opening hand of double Leyline, so it's over before we do anything.
2-0
Round 3: Rg burn:
Same burn player as last week, we always have really close, fun games. Game 1 I almost stabilize at 2 life but only have a shockland to get my 5th land to thragtusk and he has an Eidolon of the Great Revel in play so I can't do anything else.
Game 2: He sideboards in Destructive Revelry with splash green to take care of my Leylines that he knew about from last week, but I don't mulligan into them. Lilianas take some creatures out and eventually I stabilize around 2 life with a gifts -> Thragtusk and eventually a Timely Reinforcements. I couldn't go for Iona because 2 Shrine of Burning Rage at 4 and 5. I can abrupt decay one of them before he blasts me twice though. He has 2-3 Destructive Revelry in his hand at the end of the game, which is kind of funny since I have 4 Leylines and 1 Spellskite already in the deck.
Game 3: This game I have some removal and can stabilize with an Iona at around 4 life. Timely Reinforcements brings me out of the range of anything that could kill me.
3-0
Round 4: Pod
Game 1: He mulligans to 5 and I inquisition him down to 2 Birthing Pod, 3 land, and Lin Vala. I get Liliana out, tick her up, and he abrupt decays it. I thoughtseize the Lin Vala and he's just stuck at 1 pod in hand, and I'm looking good with my Lingering souls. Top deck is of course a voice of resurgence, pods into Eternal Witness, recasts voice. I am eventually buried by big dumb pod advantage.
Game 2: He hurts himself like 8 with thoughtseize + greedy mana (and that's coming from a 4c control deck), but doesn't have the only card in his deck worth playing (pod). Lingering souls bring him down to around 8, even through his finks, and eventually hard cast Grave Titan trades 3 for 1 while leaving me 8 power on the field.
Game 3: He's able to do enough damage that gifts on turn 4 needs to go for wrath effects. Here's where not having a Hallowed Burial at the local shop bites me in the ass as I don't have the 6 mana needed to get snapcaster, damnation, wrath, X. Without that I don't have the pile I need to stabilize against Gavony Township + Mana Dork + Voice + 2 Kitchen Finks.
3-1
Round 5: ID against Twin
We play some for fun games, turns out the removal in my deck can beat that deck like 95% of the time.
3-1-1
Top 8: (Me, pod, twin, burn, scapeshift, boggles, affinity, dredgevine) 6/8 are fine with a draw since it's like 11:30pm. So we play.
We have the "whoever has higher seed gets to choose who goes first" going on, which I'm a huge fan of, even though I'm in 5th place.
I'm matched up against Twin (4th seed).
Game 1: I bury him in card advantage after he goes for the turn 4 combo and I have the Path. Gifts Ungiveninto the Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, Abrupt Decay, Lingering Souls package. He is unable to keep cards in hand and I can pretty much just go wild with Life.
Game 2: I try to keep up mana to respond to a potential blood moon, but he never has it. He gets out a relic, but I abrupt decay it the turn before I can play gifts. I'm playing around a Dispel I know he has. Iona, shield of emeria comes out on red because he already has Deceiver Exarch in play, even though I wanted to name blue. Iona card advantage gets there.

It's like 12:00, 3 of the 4 of us are good for a draw, 1 wants to play. So tired.
Affinity: They choose to go first since 1st seed.
Game 1: Opening hand is Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, and 3 lands. Looks like I'm cheating, basically. For the first time in my magic career, I'm able to Path to Exile a Etched Champion! I continue to confuse my opponent by never drawing a Gifts Ungiven but play out Thragtusk and Grave Titan. It was close though since even at 15 life they had double Galvanic Blast + Shrapnel Blast in hand but not enough red mana.
Game 2: This one is a bit sadder. They mulligan to 5 and I open with an Inquisition of Kozilek on their only good card, Cranial Plating. I have some removal to stall into the Gifts Ungiven (at which point they understand what I'm playing and respond with a, "oh... oh no.") into Unburial Rites + Elesh Norn.

End up 5-1-1

I draw for 1st/2nd place with the burn opponent that I played earlier in the night. It's like 12:30 so I'm happy to leave.

Only change for next week is +1 Hallowed Burial in the sideboard, maybe alongside another Aven Mindcensor or two.

Qweerios
09-08-2014, 03:58 PM
Ever since the banning of DRS, Gifts Control has been doing all sorts of great things for me. I have attended several weekly modern tournaments (40+ players) and placed with 4-0, 3-0-1, and 3-1 finishes. Here is the list I have been using:


4 Birds of Paradise
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
1 Putrefy
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Unburial Rites

1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge

Sideboard
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Negate
1 Countersquall
1 Darkblast
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ghost Quarter


Some of my most recent changes include:

-Replacing 2 copies of Path to Exile with 1 Engineered Explosives and a 4th Abrupt Decay (I used to play the 3/3 Decay/Path split)
Why: I find Decay to be the superior removal in general as it is always the one I want to draw. Exile is only necessary against a few cards (Wurmcoil, Finks, Voice) and in most cases giving my opponent a land is devastating. Explosives are extremely versatile and have great synergy with Ruins in a Gifts pile.

-Replacing Doom Blade with Executioner's Capsule
Why: 1 more mana for recursive removal with Ruins. It also cannot be countered once it is on the battlefield.

-Moving Ghost Quarter to the SB and replacing it with Academy Ruins
Why: Tectonic Edge is my land destruction card of choice against every deck. Quarters are only good against Affinity and Tron and by the time I get to cast Gifts, Tron is already on 4 lands so Tech Edge is the better choice.

-Moving Sigarda to the SB and replacing her with Batterskull
Why: The inclusion of Ruins makes Batterskull the more resilient win condition that can be tutored in different ways. It also has great synergy with one of my main win conditions: Lingering Souls.

On a different note, I am psyched about Khans of Tarkir as it brings some interesting additions to this deck and to the modern format in general. I think Utter End is an upgrade from Maelstrom Pulse since instant speed and exile is much better than hitting multiple copies and sorcery speed for 1 less mana. We also get access to better fetchlands so in my case I will simply replace Misty Rainforest with Windswept Heath. It isn't a huge change but for other lists that are more blue centric the addition of Polluted Delta and Flooded Strand is welcomed.

However, the card I feel has the most potential for this archetype is Sultai Charm. I wonder if it could replace or complement Liliana as our main discard outlet. Just like Liliana, Charm can destroy creatures (only monocolored ones though), but it also acts as much needed removal against cards like Birthing Pod, Cranial Plating, and Blood Moon. We often only want self-discard as a one-time effect and Charm grants card advantage in the process. Imagine drawing 2 cards and discarding either Souls, Loam, Crime, Rites, Elesh, Iona, any lands with LftL somewhere, or even any artifact with a Ruins in play.

Phoenix Ignition
09-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Path is either amazing or bad in the early game, but pretty good mid-late. The reason I think you need to play it if you play the deck (without knowing the exact metagame you'll be facing), is that it stalls until you can use most of your spells. Affinity is just too fast to rely on Abrupt Decay, and their manlands are absolutely brutal even when you do shut down some creatures. Same thing goes for Infect, which has been seeing more play online and in my area. Those decks and UWr control (abrupts are terrible there, and at least path hits manlands) are why I really like having access to paths, but if you don't have those then I'd be fine with taking them out.

I'm curious as to your opinion on Birds vs. Sylvan Caryatid. Boosting into Liliana or Lingering souls is great, but not being susceptible to lightning bolt before you use it is good too. Added bonus of being able to block a lot of the 2/x creatures is always nice too.

Qweerios
09-11-2014, 01:18 AM
I did and still do play PtE every now and then. The main reason to play Path is its versatility, cheap cost, and exile. As you mentioned, they are a necessary evil but the correct number remains a mystery to me. I always play between 1 and 3 but never 4.

Concerning Caryatid vs. BoP, I think they are both good but that Bird is slightly better. I stopped thinking about it when I included Batterskull as BoP offers the possibility of a flying Bskull (it also swings in the air with Elesh). The shroud and 3 toughness of Caryatid are obviously good but losing the ability to play T2 Lily, Souls, or any combination of 1 and 2 CMC spells is too great as they often lead to blowouts, especially Lily on T2. BoP also has pseudo shroud since it will often be neglected by our opponents saving their removal spells for better cards that they don't know we don't play. I also like the fact like BoP greatly misleads our opponents on what deck we are playing and how it prompts bad decisions for G2 and G3 such as keeping cards like Abrupt Decay in the main. Caryatid is absolutely great vs. Burn and anything packing Blood Moon though.

On a different note, I find Inquisition of Kozilek to be seriously underwhelming. It is always my weakest card and it doesn't fill its role against decks where removal is mostly dead (Tron, Scape, Amulet Combo for instance). I would love to play Thoughtseize but the life loss is too great with that many fetches and shocks. I was thinking of trying out 3 Mana Leaks or perhaps Sultai Charms instead. However, I really don't like the combination of our slow development, path to exile giving lands, and mana leak's limitations.

Phoenix Ignition
09-11-2014, 01:28 PM
I considered cutting Mana Leak for a long time as a lot of decks don't care too much about it and ones that you want to counter stuff it isn't great against (Scapeshift gets like 8 mana anyway so leaking doesn't matter). The great part about it though is that people play around it when they see one, and once you hit 6 mana Gifts is likely going to resolve. Having 2 Leak, 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Inquisition is a nice catch-all to stop things I can't remove easily, and it makes people unsure of what to play and what to board against me. That said Mana Leak is very weak at times, I could see cutting it for something else.

I really like a split of Thoughtseize/Inquisition, maybe that'd be something that helps your version out. You can't go 100% Thoughtseize because of the life loss like you said, but giving you a couple more outs to stuff like Birthing Pod, Cryptic Commands, and the like really helps.

I'm considering cutting something for birds/caryatid but I'm not entirely sure what. I do have 2 more lands than you so maybe that's a place to start, and I like your argument against Ghost Quarter, as I've never actually even attempted a ghost quarter lock on someone in a real game. I might just throw a 2nd Tec Edge in that slot, but it's possible I put Birds/Caryatid in instead. Have you ever used Academy Ruins' ability? I found it underwhelming when I did use it and I would have been just as happy drawing the top card instead. It was nice to know it was there for a gifts package but eventually I found the colorless mana was more of a detriment than sometimes maybe using its ability.

Qweerios
09-12-2014, 12:55 PM
I think IoK is better than Leak but I might be tempted to try some amount of TS > IoK. I would even play maindeck Negate before mana leak. The reasons why I prioritize discard over counters are very simple:
1) Black is our main color so it is easier to reach within the first 3 turns while blue is our 3rd splash color so requiring it before t4 becomes a liability.
2) Discard is cheaper and leads to Gifts while counters have to be played in addition to Gifts, making it significantly slower.

The more I play discard, the more I realize that it is only good against cards like Mana Leak, Remand, opposing IoK/TS, Finks, Voice, etc. While it is effective against those, it is also dead in many situations such as a topdeck, against a hand full of 4CMC+ cards or that the only cards I can discard are cards I don't care about such as removal spells (it has happened surprisingly often).

BoP is similar to Path because it acts as a necessary evil in the sense that it enables us to reliably cast all of our removal spells and go for a combo Gifts pile against fast and aggressive decks (Affinity, Burn, and Pod for instance). In slower matchups where all of our cards are useful I will often side out all of my birds (American Control, Cruel Control, and even Jund).

Yes I have used Ruins a bit. I use it to discard Batterskull, Capsule, and EE to Lily and keep them available. What I really like about Ruins is that against lots of decks my Gift Pile of choice consists of LftL, Raven's Crime, Tec Edge, and something else (Souls, Tar Pit, Ruins) and that after a few Dredges, I have a plethora of options available now that I have dredged my Batterskull/Capsule/EE while I was wrecking my opponent's hand and manabase. Ruins also saves us from "Death by Loam" as we get to put EE back on top of our library indefinitely. This can become relevant when we repeatedly Loam back Tec Edge and Quarters against a Tron opponent.

Phoenix Ignition
09-12-2014, 03:07 PM
I think IoK is better than Leak but I might be tempted to try some amount of TS > IoK. I would even play maindeck Negate before mana leak. The reasons why I prioritize discard over counters are very simple:
1) Black is our main color so it is easier to reach within the first 3 turns while blue is our 3rd splash color so requiring it before t4 becomes a liability.
2) Discard is cheaper and leads to Gifts while counters have to be played in addition to Gifts, making it significantly slower.
Yep, I agree with this. At the same time though, I'm not sure I want to go to 0 counterspells since then people have a much easier time guessing what we can and can't answer. Diversifying your answers also makes Snapcaster mage that much better.

The other bonus of discard, and more specifically Thoughtseize, is that you have another easy way to get your reanimation combo out of your hand if you need to. Liliana and Raven's Crime obviously are the better options, but having additional routes in Thoughtseize has actually won me games before.


Yes I have used Ruins a bit. I use it to discard Batterskull, Capsule, and EE to Lily and keep them available. What I really like about Ruins is that against lots of decks my Gift Pile of choice consists of LftL, Raven's Crime, Tec Edge, and something else (Souls, Tar Pit, Ruins) and that after a few Dredges, I have a plethora of options available now that I have dredged my Batterskull/Capsule/EE while I was wrecking my opponent's hand and manabase. Ruins also saves us from "Death by Loam" as we get to put EE back on top of our library indefinitely. This can become relevant when we repeatedly Loam back Tec Edge and Quarters against a Tron opponent.

I notice you didn't say you've activated ruins, just that it's nice it's there in case you want to. It gives you options and I played it for a month or two but realized I had never once in a tournament setting activated it. I never Loamed myself to death and it's cool to have insurance against stuff like mill, but the strategy against that deck is and always has been beat them for playing a shitty deck. EE is good on its own without recurring, and the only change I really made to my list was Thragtusk> Batterskull, which has saved me multiple times against burn decks (instant 5 life vs. combat step). Against Tron usually if you're doing okay with the tec edge strategy you can beat them to death with Lingering Souls or Tar Pits while doing it, since the game has gone late enough for you to have that many lands.

I did however lose to the lack of color Academy Ruins produces.

Qweerios
09-12-2014, 05:01 PM
I notice you didn't say you've activated ruins, just that it's nice it's there in case you want to. It gives you options and I played it for a month or two but realized I had never once in a tournament setting activated it. I never Loamed myself to death and it's cool to have insurance against stuff like mill, but the strategy against that deck is and always has been beat them for playing a shitty deck. EE is good on its own without recurring, and the only change I really made to my list was Thragtusk> Batterskull, which has saved me multiple times against burn decks (instant 5 life vs. combat step). Against Tron usually if you're doing okay with the tec edge strategy you can beat them to death with Lingering Souls or Tar Pits while doing it, since the game has gone late enough for you to have that many lands.

I did however lose to the lack of color Academy Ruins produces.

Well I only used BSkull/EE/Capsule/Ruins in 1 tournament so far and I liked it. I did activate Ruins to put a Batterskull on top of my deck twice during 4 rounds.

Also, you can only attribute a loss to a colorless land for not producing colored mana if you took out a colored land for it.

Phoenix Ignition
09-12-2014, 10:42 PM
I added another Creeping Tar Pit in its place, as having something that kills opposing Lilianas without wasting extra cards is really good (or having it available after you reanimated a fatty, to be able to sac when they drop it).

I'm considering dropping 1 land and 2 Leaks to try out 3 Birds (or sylvan caryatids if I get my hands on them) next week. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Qweerios
09-16-2014, 12:39 AM
Went 2-1-1 at a local tournament tonight. I got to play lots of interesting games against a RW Land destruction deck with Blood Moon (2-1), Ad Nauseam/Unlife combo (2-1), American Control with Geist (1-1-1, no time to win this one), and Junk (0-2). I got completely screwed on that last match as I was facing some of the most amazing topdecks you could imagine.

If I learned anything from the last 2 matches its that I really wish I had a couple of sweepers mainboard to deal with creature swarms and Geists. Liliana is also much better against the decks I want targeted discard against so I will play the full 4 from now on and IoK is getting the axe (finally!).

Oh! also, I got to Gifts for EE, Ruins, LftL, and Crime against UWR Control and recurred EE 3 times to deal with 2 Geists and a Resto. I also used EE to return a Capsule on top of my Library in response to an Ooze being cast and it allowed me to Gifts for Iona the following turn.

This is my new list for next week:


4 Birds of Paradise
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Gifts Ungiven

4 Lingering Souls
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Unburial Rites
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of God

1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge


Trying out -4 IoK for +1 Colonnade, +1 Damnation, +1 Wrath of God, and +1 Liliana. I thought about Supreme Verdict but Snaping it back sounds extremely hard to do. Anyways, perhaps the 2nd sweeper will prove to be too much and be moved to the SB in favor of a singleton Sultai Charm when it comes out.

Megadeus
10-01-2014, 05:59 PM
Thinking of getting into modern and this seems like the most interesting deck to play. Anyone have a recent list? I don't know what my meta looks like at the moment, which is probably bad for this deck, but I would like to play loam with a GQ or Tec Edge to search up for sure

Phoenix Ignition
10-01-2014, 08:24 PM
An unknown meta is actually just fine for this deck, as long as you choose some slightly more conservative options for the maindeck (like including both Iona and Elesh).

My current list is:

25 lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Creeping Tar Pit

3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn
1 Thragtusk
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Lingering Souls
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Damping Matrix
1 Wrath of God
1 Hallowed Burial

It's the most fun deck to play that I've done in Modern, which is what keeps me playing it. I'd say only 1/2 of the time do I go for the reanimator combo, and half the time is some value pile.

Megadeus
10-01-2014, 11:53 PM
Interesting list. Tribe Elders just to speed it up a bit? I guess this deck used to plat Deathrite before?

Phoenix Ignition
10-02-2014, 12:19 AM
Interesting list. Tribe Elders just to speed it up a bit? I guess this deck used to plat Deathrite before?

The list has been without Deathrites for a while. Most people use Sylvan Caryatid, some use BoP, but I find that running wrath effects with Sylvan is underwhelming. It's nice to have ramp, and I really like how Sakuras give me the ability to stop life gain from Boggles/batterskull/wurmcoil while protecting me from bloodmoon. I can easily see that changing out for a different mana dork. I actually played 2 Mana Leaks and 1 additional land in their place before I changed to them, but I do like the option of having some ramp.

Megadeus
10-02-2014, 01:07 AM
Interesting. I may build off of your list with a few tweaks just to get started and get a feel for the deck

Wordslinger
10-11-2014, 06:04 PM
here's a mini- report not worth much and a decklist that might be interesting to someone. First the deck:
4 gifts ungiven
4 glittering wish

4 sylvan carytid
2 courser of kruphix
2 kitchen finks
3 snapcaster mage

1 elesh norn
1 grave titan

2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kosilek
1 duress
1 ravens crime

2 path to exile
1 abrupt decay
1 dismember
1 slaughter pact
1 supreme verdict

1 life from the loam
1 treasure cruise

4 windswept heath
3 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 sacred foundry
2 overgrown tomb
2 hallowed fountain
2 temple garden
1 godless shrine
1 plains
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest
1 murmuring bosk
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

sb( maindeck pt 2)
2 sultai charm
3 leyline of sanctity
1 rule of law
1 keranos, god of storms
1 fracuring gust
1 slaughter games
1 kitchen finks
1 siguarda, host of herons
1 abrupt decay
1 golgari charm
1 supreme verdict
1 firespout

Glittering wish increases the threat and answer density of the deck, which lowers the reliance on gifts. Also sometimes just casting gifts dosen't get you there, they might just path your guy or something and then you're boned. glittering wish means you have a lot more gas than you would otherwise.

the report:

9 people, 3 rounds, cut to top 2 (!).

Here Goes !

Round 1 - goblins

i lose the die roll and decide to keep, and my opponent mulls to six. My opponent plays mountain, legion loyalist. i look at my hand of shockland into thoughtseize and mentally
facepalm. i proceed to not draw a third land as my opponent plays loyalist # 2 into goblin rabblemaster (which i kill) into goblin rabblemaster # 2 ( which i also kill) into
goblin cohort into goblin chieftain and die. it is worth noting that i could have saved 8 damage had i figured out what he was doing and wished into golgari charm on turn 2 like
i was probably supposed to.
game 2 my opponent mulls to five and i get a fast elesh norn.
game 3 is much the same except this time i also have leyline.

1-0

round 2 - Burn
i lose the die roll and my opponent has mountain, rift bolt( ! !). I proceed to draw nothing but lands coursers and discard spells while my opponent bricks on white sources for his helixs. my opponent stops bricking first and i lose.

game 2 my opponent can't contain his excitement at his opener. a cast thoughtsieze ant see :eidolon x2, lightning bolt, arid mesa, skullcrack, lightning helix, mountain.
i take bolt, he goes mesa pass , i play carytid he goes mountain pass. i play land, he plays eidolon i gifts on his end step and that's all she wrote. his leftover burn is a little scary,
but i wish into finks to cut that off at the pass.

game 3 goes the same way as game 2 mostly except that he has guide on turn one.

2-0
round 3 - infect

i win the die roll (yippie) and start doing my thing, on turn four he attempts to kill me but i have removal. unfortunately i punt by not timing this removal to play around the vines
i know is in his hand from an earlier inquisition. Whoops !

game 2 thoughtseize his only infect creature from his hand on turn one, only to have him topdeck another one and cast it on turn two and kill me with it on turn three, flying over
my carytid to do so. Huh.

2 -1

top 2 (!!!)

infect rematch

game one is long and grindy. basically i kill every guy he has, then we both topdeck until i find gifts and win.
game 2 I kill a couple guys, wish for keranos and that's all she wrote.

overall i think this version is pretty powerful, although the one thing i'm 100% sure of is that i played sub-optimally at least 1/3 of the time. ugh so hard.

Megadeus
10-15-2014, 11:44 AM
Here's the list I'm currently working towards:

Men:

2x Snapcaster Mage

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

1x Thragtusk

2x Sylvan Caryatid


Spells:

4x Gifts Ungiven

3x Mana Leak

1x Unburial Rites

3x Liliana of the Veil

4x Lingering Souls

1x Call of the Herd

1x Life from the Loam

3x Abrupt Decay

2x Treasure Cruise

1x Raven's Crime

3x Thoughtseize

2x Serum Visions

1x Engineered Explosives


3 Creeping Tar Pit

3 polluted delta

2 verdant catacombs

3 windswept heath

1 breeding pool

1 hallowed fountain

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 watery grave

1 temple garden

1 forest

1 swamp

1 island
1 academy ruins

1 tectonic edge

1 ghost quarter

1 temple garden

1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth


Sorry about the weird formatting. That's copy and pasting for you though. I don't necessarily think it's optimal by any means, just my starting point.

Also I think the second cruise will become a dig through time probably

Stryfo
10-15-2014, 06:20 PM
I've been playing this deck for a little while with a lot of success, and even more fun. I've decided that rather than play ramp, I'll just kill everything. I have fewer creatures and effective creatures than I have seen on here, but the only matchup I ever find myself fearing is burn. For reference, here is what I've been running:

4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
3 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nameless Inversion
1 Damnation
1 Sultai Charm
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Consume the Meek
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Smother

2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Academy Ruins
2 Godless Shrine
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Stirring Wildwood
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island

1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Tectonic Edge
SB: 1 Bow of Nylea
SB: 1 Raven's Crime
SB: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
SB: 1 Hero's Downfall


I had to run tidespout as he is my favorite creature, and 3 vindicates and a boomerang each turn is some pretty sweet late game.

Megadeus
11-25-2014, 01:41 AM
Gonna play my above list for the most part -1 Call of the Herd and +1 Fetch land tomorrow. Should be fun. First foray into modern for me when it comes to actually owning a deck. Hopefully I won't punt too much like I have in testing. I think I'm lacking a sweeper though. I'll probably find a couple of drown in sorrow for the board for tomorrow night

nodahero
11-25-2014, 09:19 AM
Hopefully your meta is less aggressive than mine. I would say about 30% of my meta is UR Delver...

Megadeus
11-25-2014, 02:17 PM
Last time I played (borrow B/g obliterator), there was a lot of aggressive decks. Hence why I'm packing timely. and Tusk.

Phoenix Ignition
11-25-2014, 02:32 PM
I would probably put a few more Golgari Charms in your SB.

Megadeus
11-25-2014, 11:46 PM
Went 3-1. I'm very surprised at the outcome.

Lost to RWu Burn. Game two was the only really interesting game. I Tec Edge his white mana source just to play around a possible path, and gifts for Iona naming red from 8 life.

Beat 4 Color Pod. Game 1 I thought seize him taking his mana dork over a pod since I have stuff counters. He rips a noble and I decay it. Unfortunately he doesn't run his pod into the pierce in my hand. He eventually gets a Restoration Angel and copies it with image. Gets me to 1 but I stabilize with souls. I gifts for a value package of rites, Tusk, and some kill spells. I treasure cruise at some point and take over with the card advantage provided. Game two I strip a pod from his hand and he has mana dorks and an Aegis of the gods to prevent a gifts. Luckily he's not hitting me too hard after I slaughter pact his baloth. I loam back a fetch to get a second white and casually hard cast elesh norn with a few souls on board and wrath him.

Beat UR Delver. Game 1 I kill everything and get an Iona? Game 2 I die on his turn 3 because he piracy charms my chump blocking snap caster. Game 3 goes long and sees me go to 1 life after a gifts. I make a pile of rites, Tusk, snapcaster, and Timely. He gives me Tusk and I play it. It gets me there along with next turn snap timely to go to 11.

Beat Scapeshift. Game 1 I mull to a double mana leak hand and I aggressively counter his ramp. Leak his turn 2 farseek. Leak his turn 3 suspended Search for tomorrow. I thought seize seeing he has no blue source and a hand of 6 blue cards and a scapeshift. I mistakenly let him keep shift. He however doesn't just cast it to fix his mana and instead chooses to discard it to my liliana then concedes. Game 2 goes long and in response to a turn 4 serum visions I cast gifts since he has no blue open. I realize I am just dead if I get Iona and rites if I don't draw a white source next turn, so I get Loam, snap caster, gifts and ravens crime. What a terrible pile I know. Anyway, luckily I have enough black sources to crime his whole hand on the untap. I then slowly beat him with a tar pit and snap caster then kill him with a surprise elesh norn while crime and Tec Edge with loam kills any non basic he plays.

Overall the deck felt extremely powerful. I need to rework my removal suite, because being on the draw and only having 2 mana removal was really really bad. I'll probably put in a path and disfigure or something. The cruise burn decks just seem like a miserable match up, especially game 1. Tusk was one of the best cards in the deck. I did find myself wanting maybe a flash threat of some sort though. I think that would maybe be a clique?

Phoenix Ignition
11-26-2014, 02:27 AM
My sideboard on my list page 1 was made specifically for a burn meta. It worked extremely well, but I'm sure you know the tradeoffs for this many sideboard slots:

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Damping Matrix
1 Wrath of God
1 Hallowed Burial

Megadeus
11-27-2014, 01:10 PM
I'm not a huge fan of leyline in general, but it's definitely a powerful effect. I need to work on gifts piles. I generally lose a card just because I make a shit pile. Luckily the effects of this deck are so powerful they can overcome my mistakes. The Deck definitely felt like a puzzle though. I like it a lot, and it makes me want to build like an intuition deck in legacy

Valtrix
12-06-2014, 10:55 AM
In trying to build a loam deck, considering Modern doesn't have enough density of great cards to abuse loam I inevitably found myself with a gifts deck. But! I wanted a loam deck, so I tried my very hardest to not to get too fancy with gifts. After fiddling around with a lot of things, I've actually been pretty happy with what I've come to:

//Lands (25)
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge

//Answers (17)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mana Leak
4 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dimir Charm

//Threats (11)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Snapcaster Mage

//Gifts enablers (7)
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Syphon Life

//Sideboard
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Disdainful Stroke
1 Eternal Witness
1 Damnation
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Dimir Charm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Batterskull

In putting this list together, my goal was to streamline the deck as much as possible. I'm happy to just control the game and then have gifts be an endgame recursion that decks can't deal with, or if needed to just net me +1 CA. Remember, I wanted to make a loam deck, so in building I've tried to view gifts ungiven as a way to setup loam recursion as much as possible. In doing this I decided to cut unburial/fatty, from the main at least. This combo is certainly a liability in too many matchups and for a streamlined deck I just want to have good draws as much as possible. Running too much support for gifts can give you bad draws in my opinion. I have included it in the sideboard though, because I think it's definitely something you want access to in matchups. It's possible running merchant scroll as a 5th gifts is even very good (as I did in the SB, but scroll could easily leave).

The next very obvious thing is that I'm really just a BUG deck. I splash a single white source for unburial rites sideboard strategies, but otherwise I'm on 3 colors. This is part of streamlining the deck--the more colors I want to push the more awkward everything I'm going to be doing becomes.

Syphon Life is certainly an interesting inclusion. It is certainly a very weak draw in a lot of cases, but given the current meta (i.e. full of burn) I think that having access to repeatable lifegain is very important. Additionally, it lets you easily turn your gifts piles into not only late game recursion but a win-con as well. You'd be surprised at how fast syphon life starts going after you find loam, since your manabase grows so large. If you gifts turn 4, you can use turn 5 to loam + cast another spell from hand or raven's crime, then turn 6 you have mouth of ronom ready to kill a creature or cast syphon life twice, next turn you can loam + syphon life and after that you're setup to start using loam once AND syphoning life twice a turn. (And this is everything that just gifts lets you do--the rest of your hand might give you even more options)

What kind of gifts piles am I looking to do with this deck? Well, as it turns out, there's not too many piles I want to consider. The first is always to evaluate if you just need value. Getting decay/snapcaster/Liliana/X is great for immediate answers. If you want to cross between direct answers and just winning, goyf/lily/snapcaster/gifts is very threatening. Otherwise I tend to just stack a loam + syphon life pile. Loam is your recursion and syphon life will turn into your victory after you've established a soft lock via loam. The other two cards have a few options. Engineered Explosives + Ruins is very flexible. Raven's crime has its uses against the right decks. Tec edge is a very slow plan, but you need access to it. And Mouth of Ronom is the last other land to consider. Mouth here is actually very good since it helps fill the loss of unburial rights to give a backbreaking recursion method against creature decks. 6 lands total is not a problem because of loam, and it sets up very nice lines like T4 gifts, T5 cast loam to get mouth back + have 3 mana open, T6 Mouth to kill something. You can use mouth to clear the board when needed, and then Syphon life when your opponent doesn't draw anything relevant to close out the game.

Tarmogoyf feels very important to me and is very good in a shell like this. He gets big quickly and ends the game quickly. Plus, it makes it difficult for decks to SB against you--keeping in removal is kind of awkward, but goyf is so powerful.

Snapcasters are very important for several reasons. As always, they give you great value. But in postboard games he lets you extend the usefulness of your stack control, since vs. combo and control this is often more important. Additionally, since disfigure is a main removal spell, snap blocks + disfigure let you take down things with 3 or 4 toughness that might slip through otherwise.

Inquisition is not my favorite card, but I think it helps in a lot of places. This deck should have a solid lategame to avoid the downsides to discard. Inquisition seems necessary to round out the curve. The 1cc removal options just aren't really there otherwise. Not sure if some number of thoughtseize should be there--the life seems like a liability in the current meta, but flexibility is highly valuable too.

Mana leak was chosen to have more ways to interact with combo decks, while still retaining usefulness in other matchups. It shouldn't be hard to justify, but I think this is a card that people usually get on the fence about. I'm happy to run this as an early game option, because with gifts I should have a significant advantage in the late game anyway. Plus with so many lilianas, people often discard lands to protect their other spells so it's likely to stay live for longer.

The SB is all sorts of a mess, so don't pay too much attention to it right now! There are a few worthwhile things. I think Norn + Unburial rites (+ maybe merchant scroll) should be there for sure. 2-3 forms of lifegain need to be in the SB, as it's always welcome, particularly with gifts. There should also be at least 4 counterspells--You have to side out a ton of removal against some decks. I picked disdainful stroke here for scapeshift (hits any creatures they bring in, as well as cryptic and scapeshift), twin (again to hit creatures they bring in, cryptic, their combo, dig through time), and control. I think there's definitely a better option, but I'm not quite sure what yet. Dimir charm looks like a great answer for delver decks (kills all their dudes or hits cruise), which is why I included extra copies in the board. Would prefer 1cc answers though.

Eternal witness is a nice SB trick to allow you to "tutor" for 1-of instants or sorceries by setting up a witness + snapcaster + X pile. It is for sure slow, but if the spells are strong enough it may be worth considering. I wouldn't be opposed to just putting Witness in the main. I was considering it over Lily 4.

Anyway, here is my current approach for Gifts. I haven't gotten to play too much because I'm still trying to evaluate the type of approach I want to take. Overall though I'm very happy with it. It's a lot more streamlined than other versions of gifts I've played, and I've definitely appreciated that consistency. It has the late game power I want, without the costs of running a ton of "junk" to support gifts, and has a lot of very different and hard to deal with threats (goyf, gifts, lily).

I'll try to say more as I get more games in. Suggestions/comments are very welcome!

Phoenix Ignition
12-06-2014, 05:57 PM
I think you need to test more before making claims like it's a streamlined gifts deck. As any control deck, you need multiple ways to deal with all of the common strategies of the format, and you're lacking a lot in that respect. Mana Leak isn't a catch all to stop you from losing. Here are just a few things I have issue with:


In doing this I decided to cut unburial/fatty, from the main at least. This combo is certainly a liability in too many matchups and for a streamlined deck I just want to have good draws as much as possible. Running too much support for gifts can give you bad draws in my opinion. I have included it in the sideboard though, because I think it's definitely something you want access to in matchups. It's possible running merchant scroll as a 5th gifts is even very good (as I did in the SB, but scroll could easily leave).
Unburial + fatty is 2 slots in your deck, as drawing into it can be fixed by having Raven's Crime (already included) or Liliana (already inlcuded). Having dead cards that are specific deck hosers in a deck running Liliana is actually extremely good. You have a card that wins one matchup but loses others? Discard to Lily. Not running the most powerful card in the format with Gifts is just wrong, especially thinking that game 2 it will be better.

First off, your deck is 100% reliant on Graveyards. Tarmogoyf + Loam are the win conditions, and you can't do either with something like Relic (or Leyline + delve or whatever people are doing now). For many decks, Gifts is just dead if you're not reanimating something. What are you going to do against Affinity if you happen to make it to turn 5? Gifts for 2 removal and pray it's enough? How about against something like Boggles or even just Burn. Having access to turn 5 Elesh Norn just wins the game against Affinity, they have no answer to it. But even if you think you shouldn't run unburial rites because you want loam to work, what do you think people are siding against a deck playing Gifts + Loam + 4x snapcaster mage? How are you going to ever reanimate something in those matchups?



Syphon Life is certainly an interesting inclusion. It is certainly a very weak draw in a lot of cases, but given the current meta (i.e. full of burn) I think that having access to repeatable lifegain is very important. Additionally, it lets you easily turn your gifts piles into not only late game recursion but a win-con as well. You'd be surprised at how fast syphon life starts going after you find loam, since your manabase grows so large. If you gifts turn 4, you can use turn 5 to loam + cast another spell from hand or raven's crime, then turn 6 you have mouth of ronom ready to kill a creature or cast syphon life twice, next turn you can loam + syphon life and after that you're setup to start using loam once AND syphoning life twice a turn. (And this is everything that just gifts lets you do--the rest of your hand might give you even more options)
But here's where Unburial decks have a huge advantage. You get to play Thragtusk maindeck as an "oh shit, it's burn" option, and it doubles as a huge, efficient beater in all matchups. If you really need the life, you can just wish for Thrag + unburial (or Thrag + unburial + 2 value since you have 5 mana and can cast it), and you're not wasting a crapton of mana and cards trying to +2/-2 life totals.


What kind of gifts piles am I looking to do with this deck? Well, as it turns out, there's not too many piles I want to consider.
I just want to point out that your piles are the exact same as unburial gifts deck's piles except for the instant win piles of Unburial + elesh norn/iona that gifts has access to. You can run 1 Snapcaster instead of 4 and have the same pile for gifts.


Inquisition is not my favorite card, but I think it helps in a lot of places. This deck should have a solid lategame to avoid the downsides to discard.
You can't just say because you're gifts you have a better lategame. Thoughtseize is infinitely better right now, because it hits Pod, which it looks like your deck would lose to in 100% of games. They have all value creatures with recursion, and you're 1 for 1ing them. They don't even need to go for their combo because they can just win off of Gavony Township + Kitchen Finks, while you try to deal with 1 or the other and don't have enough mana to do both. Thoughtseize is absolutely necessary until Pod is no longer a huge part of the metagame. Other notable inclusions are Cryptic Command, Scapeshift, Restoration Angel, which are all part of decks that gifts traditionally has a hard time of beating.


And Mouth of Ronom is the last other land to consider. Mouth here is actually very good since it helps fill the loss of unburial rights to give a backbreaking recursion method against creature decks. 6 lands total is not a problem because of loam, and it sets up very nice lines like T4 gifts, T5 cast loam to get mouth back + have 3 mana open, T6 Mouth to kill something.
Turn 6 you can waste a land drop to do 4 damage to a creature? Like, I'm trying to see it from a different point of view, but I just don't. In a format of Pod, Affinity, Boggles, Twin, BGx, and more, all of those decks would be happy to see you spend all of your mana and a land drop to deal 4 damage. What matchups would this deck be better in?

Valtrix
12-29-2014, 12:53 AM
Thanks for the thought out response; sorry it took so long for me to reply. I haven't been playing too much, but I was able to get more testing in (though not extensive amounts) and a lot of what you say is very relevant.


I think you need to test more before making claims like it's a streamlined gifts deck.

When I said "streamlined" I didn't mean "better" necessarily, but the wording is definitely confusing. By "streamlining" really what I wanted to do was cut down on the color requirements and some of the 1-ofs. I just wanted to focus on less colors and less cards overall to increase (perceived) consistency. This doesn't always mean a more consistent deck is better though, nor that I even succeeded in increasing consistency.


Unburial + fatty is 2 slots in your deck, as drawing into it can be fixed by having Raven's Crime (already included) or Liliana (already inlcuded). Having dead cards that are specific deck hosers in a deck running Liliana is actually extremely good. You have a card that wins one matchup but loses others? Discard to Lily. Not running the most powerful card in the format with Gifts is just wrong, especially thinking that game 2 it will be better.

Yes, taking out unburial rites + Elesh Norn was definitely wrong. In original gifts decks I tested I didn't run many Lilianas and I didn't run any goyfs. Maxing out on Lilianas helps a lot to mitigate any awkwardness rites + Norn gives, and for two slots the power it gives in particular matchups is 100% worth having in the main. Now playing with Goyfs, Unburial Rites is at least a usable card. (Slow, yes, but hardcasting rites on goyfs has definitely won me games.)


First off, your deck is 100% reliant on Graveyards. Tarmogoyf + Loam are the win conditions, and you can't do either with something like Relic (or Leyline + delve or whatever people are doing now).

This is something I'm definitely okay with. I think the GY hate is pretty down right now, even though a lot of decks are using the GY to great effect. And for the most part the GY hate that is played isn't really game losing for me, but more of an annoyance to play around. I think there's a lot of options with this deck to play around what the opponent does. I'm not above just casting gifts for 2 relevant cards.


But here's where Unburial decks have a huge advantage. You get to play Thragtusk maindeck as an "oh shit, it's burn" option, and it doubles as a huge, efficient beater in all matchups. If you really need the life, you can just wish for Thrag + unburial (or Thrag + unburial + 2 value since you have 5 mana and can cast it), and you're not wasting a crapton of mana and cards trying to +2/-2 life totals.

If you're against burn the syphon life plan (on top of your other spells dealing with some of their burn as well) is actually pretty good most of the time. If your plan is a turn 5 thragtusk off gifts, you can turn 5 loam + Syphon Life and then turn 6 Syphon Life twice. It is a little slower for sure, but it has the added benefit of not getting blown out as hard by a skullcrack and being more life overall (as well as pretty much locking them out of the game). I do play additional life gain options in the SB, but I'm just not sure Thragtusk is needed in the main.

I hate that Syphon Life is just a miserable draw, but it has definitely been very useful. In any matchup where gifts for Elesh Norn is not your game plan it lets you setup a crushing loam pile + having Syphon life to actually close out the game after that. I'm not completely attached to Syphon Life as that card yet, but I do know that in a deck with so few win-conditions and without red to burn out the opponent that having a recurrable way to close out the game is a must. Creeping Tar Pit might actually be able to fill this role as well, however a way to close out vs. burn is also very important. Batterskull is also another option. I think Syphon Life will get moved to the SB, or cut entirely. It fills the recursion role admirably, but I think there are better options.


You can't just say because you're gifts you have a better lategame. Thoughtseize is infinitely better right now, because it hits Pod, which it looks like your deck would lose to in 100% of games. They have all value creatures with recursion, and you're 1 for 1ing them. They don't even need to go for their combo because they can just win off of Gavony Township + Kitchen Finks, while you try to deal with 1 or the other and don't have enough mana to do both. Thoughtseize is absolutely necessary until Pod is no longer a huge part of the metagame. Other notable inclusions are Cryptic Command, Scapeshift, Restoration Angel, which are all part of decks that gifts traditionally has a hard time of beating.

I've never been sure with how to split discard with Thoughtseize. You definitely want the flexibility against a lot of decks, but given the amount of burn in the format 2 life (especially in multiples) can really be painful. My meta has a lot more burn, which is why I opted for more inquisitions over throughtseize. I think 4 thoughtseize is too much, but 2-3 definitely makes sense to me.


Turn 6 you can waste a land drop to do 4 damage to a creature? Like, I'm trying to see it from a different point of view, but I just don't. In a format of Pod, Affinity, Boggles, Twin, BGx, and more, all of those decks would be happy to see you spend all of your mana and a land drop to deal 4 damage. What matchups would this deck be better in?

If all you see in Mouth is a turn 6 way to waste all your mana and a land drop to hit a creature, of course it seems bad. I have a lot of experience playing recursion in a lot of formats and in my experience after gaining control of the game, having a way to for sure deal with a creature every turn makes it pretty tough for many decks to come back. Mouth is generally faster than ruins + EE, and lets you advance your game state by still casting and dredging loam. It was certainly more relevant without having maindeck gifts for Elesh Norn. I also like that compared to ruins + EE it only takes up one gifts slot. I've been running both recursion options, though frankly I'm not sure if either is needed. They do give you an option if Norn has already been handled though.

I also think that after the 22nd colored source there's room to fit colorless lands in. Since a deck like this definitely needs at least 25 lands, that gives some flexibility. I like mouth as one of those colorless lands for the recursion with loam, but also in games where you don't set anything up but just draw into a lot of lands.

//25 Lands
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tectonic Edge

//Just for Gifts
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Unburial Rites
1 Syphon Life

//Control
4 Disfigure
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Dimir Charm
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Threats
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Disdainful Stroke
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Creeping Corrosion
SB: 1 Sultai Charm
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Dimir Charm
SB: 2 Merchant Scroll
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 2 Flashfreeze

I wasn't a fan of mana leak after playing it for awhile. For one, I generally didn't want untapped blue so early. For two it just wasn't as good as I hoped in terms of scaling into late game as well as playing nicely with the other spells I wanted to use. It could definitely come back, though for now I've been trying without them.

The sideboard is a mess right now, though it does have a couple ideas ideas that I do like, but might not be worthwhile.

Merchant Scroll is a very interesting choice against many of the decks where gifts for reanimation is immensely powerful. It telegraphs and isn't fast, but a lot of times these decks struggle greatly in dealing with Elesh Norn already. Can be used to pick up Dimir or Sultai Charm for removal too.

Dimir Charm is a pretty powerful spell against delver. I love that it hits their threats a lot of the time while also being able to go after treasure cruise. This spell also is great vs. combo too as a way to hit sorceries.

Trying to get some focused testing in with some friends, but times keep not matching up.

Mr. Safety
12-29-2014, 08:54 PM
Wouldn't Mystical Teachings be a more powerful "extra" copy of gifts? When utilized with cards like Slaughter Pact, or any of your removal really, it becomes great way to answer anything. Vendilion clique and even venser become great value cards.

Valtrix
02-10-2015, 03:44 PM
Back to some gifts testing, this time gifts-rock which is a direction a few other have been approaching. (Damn, I just want gifts to be amazing.) For reference, here is what I've been looking at:

//Lands (23)
3 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter

//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Siege Rhino
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Lingering Souls

//Spells
4 Path to Exile
1 Bant Charm
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Abrupt Decay

//Gifts
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Life from the Loam
1 Unburial Rites
1 Raven's Crime

//Sideboard
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Spreading Seas
2 Nature's Claim
2 Spellskite
1 Lingering Souls
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Negate
2 Thoughtseize

The approach is certainly different than the heavy control decks, but ultimately not too different from some crazy 5c gifts lists with a heavy red component that I was playing a bit in the past. As much as I hate to admit it, Modern just does not have the tools for control decks to actually be good. I think taking an aggro-control (heavier on the aggro...) approach is really the only way to be right now.

However, the heavy creature commitment has been doing a lot of nice things for me. First and foremost, the ramp creatures accelerating out gifts has been fantastic. Getting Norn or crime/loam out a turn earlier matters a lot. It also means that with so many high value creatures, Elesh Norn becomes more protected. They draw some removal (looking at you path), they protect you from Liliana, and they kill faster with Norn out. Oh, did I mention creatures just win the game? The threats are so good right now (alas).

No discard or Liliana -- This is a nod to color commitments in part. Gifts coloring can be so brutal I just didn't want BB when I was focusing on the ramp strategy. I miss the raw power of Liliana, but also enjoy not needing to worry about my mana so much. No discard makes me feel a bit weak to combo, but I think this can be addressed in the SB. In this particular list I'm trying without it and seeing how things go. I want to be a bit more proactive. Discard might be the way to go, but for now I will try without it.

Also, Knight of the Reliquary has been quite good, I've been impressed. He's helped be a giant beater, get random utility lands (even though there are few), and setup mana so I can play my 4cc spells on time. Not sure if I have right utility lands or not. Considering Arena and Vault of the Archangel, but I can't find room for them.

Until next time...

supremePINEAPPLE
02-10-2015, 04:43 PM
Love me some rock-gifts, I used to play it as a backup deck when deathrite was around.

Is rhino any good here? I feel like I'd rather find the room for lili and just lean on goyf and knight for beats. Not having deathrite makes her so much harder to cast though that I can see why you wouldn't want to bother. Jamming rhinos is certainly easier to do nowadays mana-wise.

H
02-10-2015, 05:00 PM
Valtrix, I actually played the previous version of the deck at my weekly FNM last Friday. It was the BUG list you had up on Salvation, with a couple minor changes (-1 Lili, +1 Thrun (which should have been a Grave Titan), -2 something else, +2 Spell Snare (horrendous, should have been anything else). I threw the deck together at the last possible moment, literally, so it was a very rushed operation.

While I misplayed horribly, often fetching the incorrect lands (and even once getting a land with the wrong fetch), I went 3-0-2 and really should have been 4-0-1, since I misplayed a Gifts versus Junk and let Liliana run rampant while I topdecks non-stop lands. I cast Gifts, started assembling a removal pile (should have been Snapcaster, Pulse, Decay, and Gifts) confused myself and got Rites and Norn, realized that wouldn't do anything. Junk seemed like a really good matchup, which would have been even better, had I correctly built the deck and had a Grave Titan in there.

Gifts plus Snapcaster is so good, it almost feels unfair. The only question was not if I could win, it was just, can I get to enough mana to win. I really like how Snap can essentially be a Regrowth.

I made top 8 and lost to Burn in what seemed like an almost hopeless matchup. I had removal, but doubt Swiftwspear in both games and I had answers, just could not deploy them all fast enough, not to mention he had at least 15 points of burn in each game.

When I play the deck again, I'll try to get my hands on some Caryatids. I really like the Hexproof and the bigger body to block with.

Valtrix
02-10-2015, 05:08 PM
Sweet! I'm happy to hear that it worked out well for you. Any gives deck definitely requires a lot of experience, and 4c decks are really tough on mana decisions. As for burn, Iona is supposed to be your trump card in the SB. With so much discard/counters/Iona I think that managing burn should not be difficult. It's probably worth running 1 siege Rhino in the main even in the BUG version so that you at least have something to rites for against burn...Thragtusk is probably the even better choice though.

I really like the BUG version--it actually plays our pretty well I think. At the moment there's not really a "standard" build, or at least one that is really proven, so I'm messing around with a bunch of different configurations for awhile. My testing is far from intense, but testing out different conceptual configurations gives me an idea of how they play out. I really like that the BUG deck always seems to have answers, but sometimes it can take awhile to win. I think Tasigur should be a good slot into the BUG version, and want to make room for him too in my junk-beater version too.

Rhino is just so good, he's hard to not play, if only because you need answers to opposing rhinos...I think the BUG version needs to be updated to address the new meta, namely junk. I'm not completely certain what the solution to that MU is. Grave Titan? More creatures? I don't really know. But, for better or worse it's everywhere so I get plenty of chances to try against it.

I think that a more controlly BUG version is better in a more combo-heavy meta, and the Junk-Gifts version is probably better in the fair meta. I need to play more Junk-gifts though and figure out how BUG would update first though to really understand if this is the case.

Jakobian
10-21-2015, 10:52 PM
Hi everyone, I've been testing/tweaking a 4c gifts control list lately. Haven't played a ton of sanctioned games with it yet, but I went 2-1-1 at a LGS weekly event with it. The draw was vs. a control matchup who was kind of slow playing and I didn't have a good way to have a fast clock on board for game 1, and he didn't do anything to advance the board state either so I didn't want to scoop. Here's the list, I'm open to feedback/criticism as long as it's warranted. I'm running bring to light so that's why the list is what it is.


3 birds of paradise
3 bring to light
4 gifts ungiven
2 Farseek
2 path to exile
1 lingering souls
1 abrupt decay
1 sultai charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Catch // Release
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
1 unburial rites
1 life from the loam
1 raven's crime
1 engineered explosives

1 Thragtusk
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 breeding pool
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit
1 academy ruins
1 tectonic edge
1 ghost quarter
1 horizon canopy

Sideboard:
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Spellskite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Detention Sphere
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Day's Undoing
1 Bojuka Bog

supremePINEAPPLE
10-22-2015, 02:23 PM
Oh crap, you get to BTL the 3cmc half of the split card and then cast the other half? Hadn't seen that yet, very cool.

Other thoughts
- I prefer caryatid for burn/zoo but I can certainly see the appeal of farseek when running 2 snaps and a Jace (not to mention the wraths)
- I'd rather play celestial colonnade over horizon canopy since the pain can be a real issue and a cycle at the cost of a land is a pretty big deal in a deck that wants to use it's mana as badly as this one does. I usually played the 2 tar-pit 1 colonnade split.
- Are 7 fetches enough? I still had problems with fixing mana at 8 fetches and only two colorless lands (25 lands total if I remember right).
- Not really a fan of siege rhino or metamorph. I would usually play dorks or high impact cards and nothing in between since the deck has a complete lack of pressure. Metamorph is an interesting BTL target but I'm having trouble imaging something that couldn't be answered by another 4 mana or less card already in the deck. What are your thoughts on including it?
- I wish batterskull was still playable in the k-command world. I used to love grinding with gifts piles of loam, ruins, EE, and batterskull.

Sweet list! I might play around with it on MTGO a little bit.

Phoenix Ignition
10-22-2015, 03:12 PM
Posted in the other thread but this one works too. I went 3-1 with this deck a couple days ago, here's my current list:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
3 Bring to Light
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Unburial Rites
3 Lingering Souls
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Primal Command

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Siege Rhino
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy


4 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Blighted Fen
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt

I'm not really a fan of the Catch // Release play as being a control deck and casting a spell that loses me a Wall and Land is probably not what I want to be doing, and there are a lot of potential targets with BtL, the challenge is cutting out the ones you don't need. Siege Rhino is great as a 4 color target with BtL since sometimes you can't find red, and he's in there for the life gain. It used to be Thragtusk, but I think SR is just slightly better since it gives you the 4cmc BtL option and sometimes you can't get to 5 mana fast enough against burn. I also put in Primal Command as an all around card advantage engine, giving 7 life and a rhino against red or bouncing a land and grabbing a creature against something like tron. Jace is ridiculously good in this deck, as we play enough cards that are bad in certain matchups that he'll just filter you into the good. It's worth playing him even though he's the only one with a target on his head. Sigarda is my current choice for the grindy matchups, and is particularly good against Tron and their newer Ugin heavy strategies.

Sideboard options currently include at least: 1 Acidic Slime for BtL-> Primal Command -> bounce + grab AS. 1 Crumble to Dust as a different route depending on the situation. 1 Keranos, God of Storms for the really grindy matchups like Lantern Control or UW Control. Fracturing Gust + Creeping Corrosion and Wrath of God + Supreme Verdict. The rest is depending on what I expect to face.

Jakobian
10-23-2015, 03:19 AM
Oh crap, you get to BTL the 3cmc half of the split card and then cast the other half? Hadn't seen that yet, very cool.

Other thoughts
- I prefer caryatid for burn/zoo but I can certainly see the appeal of farseek when running 2 snaps and a Jace (not to mention the wraths)
- I'd rather play celestial colonnade over horizon canopy since the pain can be a real issue and a cycle at the cost of a land is a pretty big deal in a deck that wants to use it's mana as badly as this one does. I usually played the 2 tar-pit 1 colonnade split.
- Are 7 fetches enough? I still had problems with fixing mana at 8 fetches and only two colorless lands (25 lands total if I remember right).
- Not really a fan of siege rhino or metamorph. I would usually play dorks or high impact cards and nothing in between since the deck has a complete lack of pressure. Metamorph is an interesting BTL target but I'm having trouble imaging something that couldn't be answered by another 4 mana or less card already in the deck. What are your thoughts on including it?
- I wish batterskull was still playable in the k-command world. I used to love grinding with gifts piles of loam, ruins, EE, and batterskull.

Sweet list! I might play around with it on MTGO a little bit.

I'm contemplating replacing birds with sakura tribe elder to buy a bit more time and still accelerate me (especially with all the sweepers I'm running). Might have to play around with how many basics I play if I do that though. I am on the brink of cutting the horizon canopy already, so maybe I will replace it with a colonnade. I initially had a knight of the reliquary in the list, and canopy got a bit more mileage with knight.

I haven't had many issues with the number of fetches, since I run the 2 farseeks and 3 birds of paradise for additional mana fixing. I am considering changing the flooded strand into another marsh flats or different fetchland.

Siege Rhino and metamorph are both not solidified slots in the list. I was thinking metamorph + Academy ruins can be good in some situations, and Metamorph copying any threat could be handy. Copying a thragtusk, siege rhino, baneslayer angel, or an opponent's primeval titan or wurmcoil engine. I had a really weird scenario happen where my opponent had multiple lords pumping his team, and I copied my own elesh norn with metamorph so they all momentarily got -4/-4 (which wiped their board), then I sacrificed the metamorph to the legend rule. Obviously that's not a common scenario, but there are some corner cases where metamorph doing tricks could be useful.

BTW The Catch//Release just seemed like a good answer to planeswalkers, it's sort of a pet card so I figured why not. I looked for other ways to abuse the bring to light split card interaction but I decided I probably don't want to cast Boom // Bust .

Thanks a lot for your input, it's helping me confirm some things I was sort of figuring out thus far.

Phoenix Ignition
10-27-2015, 03:32 PM
I went 3-1 with the deck I posted above last night. Changes I'm going to make are:

-1 Bring to Light
-1 Primal Command
+2 Siege Rhino

and then some switches to the sideboard. Siege rhino does a lot of work against a lot of decks and is just really hard to deal with. I actually won a match off the back of Siege Rhino in 2 games in the same match. Protecting him and hitting for 7 a turn (with a Tar Pit) was enough of a clock to stop an Abzan deck going the Gavony Township + Lingering Souls late game route that I would have gotten buried under. Bring to Light is still very good, but I think I can replace 1 of them with a Siege Rhino and make the curve a bit better. I won't drop it below 2, the card had been amazing. Primal Command was just underwhelming, it was in as a swiss army knife but just ended up sitting in my hand or never being searched for.

Possibly also:
-1 Path to Exile
+1 Abrupt Decay

I'm sick of seeing mana dorks or early threats that I really want to kill give the opponent mana ramp. 2 Path is probably fine to deal with the big fat threats, and abrupt decay has better game against decks that actually use noncreature nonland permanents. I don't think costing 2 instead of 1 is going to be too big of a deal, except against the decks where my additional Siege Rhinos will help me out.

Jakobian
10-28-2015, 03:43 PM
Hello again, after going 0-3 Sunday, I modified my list to what is posted below. I went 3-1 with this build yesterday and I punted a game vs the opponent I lost to, so I should have been 4-0 technically. I really really love the changes I made.



3 Sakura Tribe Elder
2 Farseek
3 bring to light
4 gifts ungiven
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 snapcaster mage
2 lingering souls
2 path to exile
1 abrupt decay
1 sultai charm
1 maelstrom pulse
1 damnation
1 wrath of god
1 elesh norn, grand Cenobite
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Siege Rhino
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 supreme verdict
1 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
1 unburial rites
1 life from the loam
1 raven's crime
1 engineered explosives


3 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
1 Marsh flats
1 flooded strand
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 hallowed fountain
1 stomping ground
2 breeding pool
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit
1 overgrown tomb
1 academy ruins
1 tectonic edge
1 ghost quarter
1 celestial colonnade


Sideboard
2 timely reinforcements
1 Sigarda, host of herons
1 crumble to dust
1 creeping corrosion
1 abrupt decay
1 detention sphere
1 spellskite
1 keranos, god of storms
1 negate
1 Iona, shield of emeria
1 Dispel
1 bojuka bog
1 Slaughter Games