[Deck] Spring Tide

[HurpDurpification]

What do you guys think about running grapeshot instead of brianfreeze, it seams like a better way to win with emerukul and stuff in the format.

[kicks_422]

Are you proposing something similar to the Pauper High Tide lists, which also use Chromatic Star/Sphere to filter the blue mana into red for Grapeshot?

[HurpDurpification]

well we already play fetches and duals still work with high tide (even when tapping for red), so maby just add in 2 duals. I guess chromatic stuff would work as well if your super worried about waste land.

[MGC_player]

So any word on the decklist that placed first at that tournament in Spain?

[ummon]

So any word on the decklist that placed first at that tournament in Spain?

Not yet. He posted the lists for the Vintage tournament, but the Legacy lists aren't up yet. Hopefully he'll put them up by tomorrow. Everyone is asking in the comments for the Legacy lists to be put up, especially cause they are interested in the Spring Tide.

[Gocho]

He said that would post the Legacy lists today. We must wait a little more.

[ummon]

Lists are up!!!!!

http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2010/10/eternal-weekend-2010-legacy-main-event.html


7 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Snap
3 Turnabout
1 Flash of Insight
4 Meditate
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Ideas Unboud
3 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
2 Remand
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish

Sideboard

2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Echoing Truth
2 Dispel
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Turnabout
1 Pyroblast
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Comet Storm


Some interesting tech in there. He uses Comet Storm presumably as an alternate win-con as a wish target. The Emrakul sideboard plan is really odd. I mean, by the time you can cast Emrakul, you can just use Comet Storm to win can't you?

He is using Solidarity's Flash of Insight and Remand in here. I'm really surprised that FoI is worth it for Spring Tide. Also, 8 fetchlands for 7 Islands and a Volcanic Island seems like an overkill. I suppose it is needed to reliably find the Volcanic though.

[Gocho]

Some notes about the deck by a teammate of the player:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3063&p=47275#p47273



Es mi colega.
La idea de jugar esa baraja se la di yo. Fue tras jugar el open de legacy de rebellión III, como no vi counterbalance y sólo vi combo y bichos pues se me ocurrió que esta era la baraja ideal para jugar (contra tritones, goblins y zoo va muy muy bien). Ese día cuando se lo comenté me dijo que tenía razón, que había que jugar esa baraja. Y le dije que si no la quería jugar él que me la dejara a mí, a él lo único que le tiraba para atrás es la grandísima exigencia mental que se requiere.
Luego llegó el open de rebellion IV, y le volví a decir lo mismo, finalmente decidió jugarla. Días más tarde después de testear un poquillo llegó y me dijo que le había metido un mínimo splash a rojo, para la pyroblast y la comet storm. Y días después se le ocurrió meter los Emrakul en el side. Lo hizo porque además de ser una condición de victoria diferente (él lo puede acabar lanzando), le puede servir para que no le deckeen y sobretodo se lo metió contra Show and tell o cosas así
A mí no me pareció mal, ya que en realidad tenía hueco en el banquillo para ello, pero lo hizo sin probarlo, así que tampoco sabíamos cómo iba a resultar.

Translated:


He is my dude.
I give to him the idea that he can play this deck. After playing Rebellion Legacy Open III, I didn't see any CB and only shaw combo and Aggro, so I think that this deck would be the best choice to play (works very good vs Merfolks, Goblins and Zoo). This day I said it to him and he agree with me, we must play that deck. I told to him that if he didn't want to play it I would do. The only thing that backwards him was that the deck need a lot of concentration to play.
After that comed the Rebellion Legacy Open IV, and I repeat all to him, so finally he play it. Some days afther that, he test it a little and told to me that he maked a minimal red splash to play Pyroblast and Comet Storm. And some days after he put the Emrakul in the SB. He do it because they are an alternative win condition (he can cast it) and can beat decking, and face S&T decks.
It seems not bad to me, because there are free slots in the SB, but he put the Emrakuls without test, so we doesn't know if them would work.


So, the choose is a metadeck.
0 CB decks -> Play Solidarity/Spring Tide :D
I love Europe xD

[alderon666]

That's kinda disappointing. I thought there would be some savage tech but that list looks like a pretty stock list with a red splash.

[Gocho]

The only new techs are Dispel in the Disrupt SB slot and 2 Emrakul as WinCondition vs S&T decks.

More info:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3063&start=10#p47286

He dislikes Remand, and uses the Red splash very little, normally he side in Emrakul and beat with it vs Emrakul's decks.
Dispel is a must have in counterwars.

[ScatmanX]

Some interesting tech in there. He uses Comet Storm presumably as an alternate win-con as a wish target. The Emrakul sideboard plan is really odd. I mean, by the time you can cast Emrakul, you can just use Comet Storm to win can't you?

Wish+Comet Storm+ 20 DMG = 25 mana
Emrakul = 15 Mana.

I think it may worth testing...

Did not like Fact or Fiction, the Remands, FoI, and only playing with 3 Merchant Scroll...
Nevertheless, congrats to the guy.

[1maarten1]

Wish+Comet Storm+ 20 DMG = 25 mana
Emrakul = 15 Mana.

I think it may worth testing...

Did not like Fact or Fiction, the Remands, FoI, and only playing with 3 Merchant Scroll...
Nevertheless, congrats to the guy.

What list would you play then :)? Im also interested in the Emrakuls in the sb, dont know about splashing red tho, opinions on that?

~Maarten

[ScatmanX]

What list would you play then :)? Im also interested in the Emrakuls in the sb, dont know about splashing red tho, opinions on that?

~Maarten

I'm curently testing Defense Grid, with 10 cantrips.
Don't think that I'll splash red, but will test Emrakul.

[egosum]

This is the list I' m testing for the moment. I used to play Solitarity a lot, but after I saw the performance of Spring Tide in the EW, before knowing the list, I decided to rebuild it in Spring Tide form, and the results are quite decent:

"Spring Tide" by Iñaki Puigdollers

Main Deck 60

12 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Force of Will

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain

4 Ideas Unboud
3 Meditate

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish

3 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
2 Turnabout


4 High Tide

2 Brain Freeze


Sideboard 15

3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away
2 Defense Grid
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap

I can see the point of Red Splash, but not in the form the EW deck used it. I' ve thought on this:

2x Volcanic Island (main deck), instead of 2 Island, and 2x Fetchalnd, instead of 2x Island.

3x Pyroblast (sidebaord), instead of the 3 Spell Pierce

In order to battle Counterbalance decks, Also Comet Storm can be nice as alternate win condition or hate bear removal,

But I think that the weakiening of the mana base will be worst in many match ups, this is weakening the match up against: Golbins, Merfolk, some survival incarnations and (the most important) UGx tempo decks, due to turning you vulnerable to Wastelnad.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Rune]

@Emrakul

Isn't it a terrible win condition if you plan on hardcasting it? You would have to cut the Meditates for them, or atleast not play your Meditates when you're ramping up to him.

[Gocho]

@Iñaki, if you want to play only 8 untap effects MD I'll go with:
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Snap
2 Turnabout

You don't want to play Snap if you can avoid it, remember that your opponent can kill your Faerie in response of Snap, and counter it. I always played 11 untappers, putting Snap or Turnabout as Wishtarget, but this was before Preordain was printed.

You don't need 2x Brain Freeze, you have Mystical tutor and Cunning Wish to tutor for it, so you can add another Cloud or Turnabout.

Dispel seems better in the counterwar, remember that your High Tide affect both players, so your opponent can pay the 2 mana easily if he plays Islands.
Which card is Defense? Defense Grid?

As I say in the spanish forum, I'm testing the red splash with Burning Wish and is goldfishing like a charm for me. I must test it vs Tempo decks, but seems that it could combo without playing the wishs (playing Islands only) if you need it, but you must go for MD Emrakul or Brain Freeze as win conditions.

@Kikoo
I suppose that he goes -2 Meditate +2 Emrakul.
If you play a single Meditate, you can play Emrakul and get no-extra turn. Many times you would keep a hand with 2-4 FOW if you play Stroke of Genius for many mana.
Remember that you play snap, so if you play 2x Meditate you can snap your opponent creatures while comboing and gain some time.

[egosum]

Sure but snap is interesting in order to buy time against an aggressive opponent, and also to get rid of hate bears, you can alwas snap an opponent creature, is not strictly necessary to snap the Faerie, so I ' ve chosen it for its versatily, and it can also be fetched with EMrchant Scroll, while Cloud of Faeries can't.

About the second brainfreeze you may be right, I' ve always played just one (in solidarity), but I'm trying it as the brute force option, in order to avoid fizzle and minimize the Storm count needed. Anyway it can be changed for the 4th Cloud.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[MGC_player]

From my own testing, one Brain Freeze MD and one in side is fine. I rarely fizzle with the list I run. I'll be modifying my SB a bit more and moving the defense grids back to it. Just wish there were people in my area that I could test with.

[1maarten1]

What is the correct number of fetches for a mono blue list? 6 or 4? :) Also I think 4 BS, 4 Ponder and 2 Preordain is enough cantrip, I would play +1 Cloud of faeries and +1 Turnabout in your list Iñaki.

[Gocho]

You can play any number between 0 and 8 blue fetchs as you want. Fetchs clean your deck and makes you weaker vs Tempo decks with Stifle, but anyway you are weak vs Stifle because he can use it to break your Brain Freezes. Sometimes getting a Stifle in your Fetch without pressure in the table is a good play for you.

I always used 4, but I'ld play 8 if I need to go for splash.

[egosum]

I' ve cut the 2nd freeze main deck in order to have space for a 4th Faerie, since this deck is not solidarity and the untap effects are more limited, sometimes 8 won' t be enough, and well having 7 tutors for Brain freeze, you werer right than a single brainfreeze will do the job.

But I still think the 12 cantrips are needed, since we are playing very few lands, and we need a land drop each turn for the first 3/4 at least. Having that many cantrips also helps a lot when goldfishing, and the sinergy between Branstorm and Preordain is insane.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

I like 6 Fetches, along with 8-10 cantrips.
In the old days it ran that config, and I think it still works.
And Preordain is really bonkers, specially at searching for lands.

[alderon666]

This probably has been talked about and dismissed. But wouldn't Orim's Chant be good? It stops counters and stops removal on your Faeries.

It sucks balls against SB, but odds are you're losing that one anyway.

[ummon]

This probably has been talked about and dismissed. But wouldn't Orim's Chant be good? It stops counters and stops removal on your Faeries.

It sucks balls against SB, but odds are you're losing that one anyway.

Depends on wether you consider the white splash worth it. Otherwise, you can always use Defense Grid.

In fact, I'd rather splash green for Xantid Swarm, Explore, and Krosan Grip.

[Gocho]

Ummm, Explore looks funny. Untap a land, makes your Turnabout better and cantrip. A small Frantic Search
But I don't know if them worth the splash. Krosan Grip is similar to Wipe Away to us and I don't think that we need Xantid to beat blue decks.

[claudio.r]

Time to dust off the old Spring Tide!

How's the matchup against merfolk ??? What are our weapons against the little blue men ?

[ummon]

Time to dust off the old Spring Tide!

How's the matchup against merfolk ??? What are our weapons against the little blue men ?

With mono-blue, we have Defense Grid and Force of Will to push our combo through. If they do manage to counter all the combo attempts, Spring Tide can rebuild really fast using all the draw power it has.

[Zlatzman]

I playtested some against Merfolk yesterday, went 1-4 (all preboard games). Granted I played a suboptimal build of Spring Tide (no Remand, only 3 Merchant Scroll, and I tried a green splash [which didn't really help me at all]), and the merfolk player had maindeck Spell Snare, in addition to FoW, Daze and Cursecatcher. My problem was really the clock Merfolk put up, forcing me to go off into Daze and Cursecatcher, resulting in fizzling before I could play the first untap-spell.

I believe that with better play from my side in addition to a more optimized main deck this matchup could look rather different. I wouldn't be surprised to see it being close to even, although I have no data to support this.

[ummon]

I playtested some against Merfolk yesterday, went 1-4 (all preboard games). Granted I played a suboptimal build of Spring Tide (no Remand, only 3 Merchant Scroll, and I tried a green splash [which didn't really help me at all]), and the merfolk player had maindeck Spell Snare, in addition to FoW, Daze and Cursecatcher. My problem was really the clock Merfolk put up, forcing me to go off into Daze and Cursecatcher, resulting in fizzling before I could play the first untap-spell.

I believe that with better play from my side in addition to a more optimized main deck this matchup could look rather different. I wouldn't be surprised to see it being close to even, although I have no data to support this.

Unfortunately Remand doesn't really help Spring Tide. Of course, 4 Merchant Scroll will help slightly. And wether the green splash is good mainly depends on wether the Merfolk you play uses Wasteland or not.

But in any case, the preboard matchup is going to be like 45-55 at best. Once you get Defense Grid or Xantid Swarm coming in you can turn around the matchup.

The most important thing is to goldfish Spring Tide a bunch. Especially cause it'll help you make better mulligan decisions. Of course, I'd also note that 5 games is not enough to be statistically significant (a 95% confidence interval yields a range of between 4% and 64% for your statistics).

[Zlatzman]

I am not so sure that we don't want Remand in here vs. Merfolk. It's a good spell to cast turn 2 or 3 to counter a lord. This will often slow down their kill by a whole turn, meaning you get more lands in play or more cards in hand when going for the kill. If they choose to counter the Remand that's one less counter for High Tide, increasing the probability of successfully resolving High Tide with enough mana available to cast an untap effect.

Of course Remand would need to come in instead of something else, and you are right in that the deck is fairly tight already. In addition Remand is 2cc, competing with cantrips and Merchant Scroll pre-combo. Finally Remand doesn't really do anything for us on the combo-turn, except for Brain Freezing with a low storm count. In the end I personally would want to test Remand some before dismissing it.

[Silent Requiem]

To begin with, Remand is pretty weak against Merfolk, since they will be trying to Vial in the important stuff anyway.

Solidarity can abuse Remand because we do everything in our opponent's end step anyway. Spring Tide needs to work at sorcery speed, so leaving mana open for Remand telegraphs your intention pretty clearly and comes with an opportunity cost (you didn't cast Merchant Scroll, etc). I'm not suggesting the deck should not run counters, just that those counters should be as cheap to cast as possible. Spell Pierce is probably your best bet after FoW.

-Silent Requiem

[ScatmanX]

Just wanted to say I played a Spring Tide deck in a Pauper tournament here today, and it was fucking incredible.

In Legacy, I'm going to try the Pact of Negation aproach, with 4 of those, and 3 FoW, with the last on the SB.
Sinde this deck goes off turn 3, I'm beggining to think this may actually be a good option, given the meta. (no CB)
Against hate-bears we habe Snap, and every other answer Cunning Wish-able, but we don't heve a great answer against 1 Spell Pierce + Daze, and maybe FoW (well, exept from Defense Grid, but I dislike it atm...). Sinde we're trying to go off turn 3-4, those thins can reallly eat all our mana, and 2 FoWs in our side can leave us without enough cards....

[claudio.r]

Currently palytesting and goldfishing the following list:


4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Cloud Of Faeries
3 Snap
1 Brain freeze
4 Force Of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
10 Island

Sideboard:
1 Snap
1 Impulse
1 Remand
1 Disrupting Shoal
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Dispel


The sideboard is just a bunch of cards for testing, since i don't know where are some of my cards like hibernation and such.

What i'm noticing is that the 12 one mana cantrips make this list really really consistent, in goldfish it always went of turn 4 or earlier. And on testing they are being really good at finding utility cards like FOW to battle some decks.
I really encourage you guys to test the 12 cantrip version. I still want to try flash of insight since it was a house in my previous list when i needed to not fizzle...

Any suggestions ???

[ummon]

Currently palytesting and goldfishing the following list:


4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Cloud Of Faeries
3 Snap
1 Brain freeze
4 Force Of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
10 Island

Sideboard:
1 Snap
1 Impulse
1 Remand
1 Disrupting Shoal
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Dispel


The sideboard is just a bunch of cards for testing, since i don't know where are some of my cards like hibernation and such.

What i'm noticing is that the 12 one mana cantrips make this list really really consistent, in goldfish it always went of turn 4 or earlier. And on testing they are being really good at finding utility cards like FOW to battle some decks.
I really encourage you guys to test the 12 cantrip version. I still want to try flash of insight since it was a house in my previous list when i needed to not fizzle...

Any suggestions ???

Your deck is essentially the standard Spring Tide build with +1 Preordain -1 Cunning Wish, so I don't have any real criticisms.

[MGC_player]

How does this fare against the Survival variants? I haven't seen much of it in my meta yet, but I would like some input on how this handles the match up. It seems this deck races it pretty well though since turn 3 kill becomes the norm and the turn 2 kill is a lot more doable with more experience with the deck.

[Irenicus]

How does this fare against the Survival variants? I haven't seen much of it in my meta yet, but I would like some input on how this handles the match up. It seems this deck races it pretty well though since turn 3 kill becomes the norm and the turn 2 kill is a lot more doable with more experience with the deck.

The 2nd-turn kill that you are talking about is doable, but unlikely. You need to have too many specific cards to make it work.

You are right that Spring Tide can indeed race Survival. But it heavily depends on the Survival build. In my experience GW Survival is a pretty decent matchup but UG is a different story. It heavily depends on winning the dice roll and not having your opponent start with turn1 Hierarch into turn 2 Survival.

And by the way 3rd-turn kills aren't the norm while playing Spring Tide. The goldfish might be between turn 3 and turn 4, but that doesn't help at all when you opponent interacts and still gets you with Vengevines on turn 4.

[GGoober]

This is the sickest list in Pauper, and really highlights how powerful Frantic Search can be in these decks (I personally think FS should be unbanned since Mystical Tutor.AnT is perhaps stronger than Frantic Search.AnT and combo could use a boost with the loss of MTutor).

4 High Tide
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Snap
4 Frantic Search
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Accumulated Knowledge (I play this in synergy with FS)
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Impulse
4 Ideas Unbound
1 Compulsive Research
1 Capsize
2 Mnemonic Wall
16 Islands

This is a PAUPER list but it goes off on turn 3 ALL the time. The deck doesn't even need a storm card. Mnemonic Wall is the MVP of the deck and I'm not sure if a similar strategy can be ported to a Legacy list (probably only do-able if FS is unbanned)

You basically go off turn 3 with High Tide, dig a ton (Preordain and Ponder are insane in Spring Tide, and gives argubly more consistency than Solidarity in the early turns 1-3 in setting up).

High Tide, untap a bunch of stuff, draw. The idea is to Scroll and chain into 3 High Tides. Cast a Mnemonic Wall to recur Snaps, and have infinite mana, and inifinite recursion and finally killing your opponent with Compulsive Research which is not a dead card during the going-off phase.

If you have 3 High Tide effects, you will be able to cast Wall (5) and Snap (2) to untap 2 lands that tap for 4 each (8), netting mana, repeat this for infinite mana and play out your deck. To reach 3 High Tides is usually not easy, but I often hit 2 High Tides during the combo phase, then get the 3rd from casting Wall most of the time. The deck will rarely fizzle, but that's only playing with Frantic Search.

But the idea for Mnemonic Wall is out there. He's probably too costly without Frantic Search (turnabout is too expensive :/) but once you have 2 Walls in your deck, and you go off, you will almost never fizzle, and Wall + Scroll can dig anything you need (Brainfreeze) etc.

I'm thinking of porting some list over. I can't play Solidarity well enough, at least I'm too spoiled by the cantrips and setting up Ponder/Preordain does for this deck that Solidarity lacks. I always feel that if I played against discard with Solidarity, I will never win ;/

[ScatmanX]

@Metalwalker:
Pauper Spring Tide is sick.
I came to the conclusion that Acumulated Knowledge is subpar, and Deep Analysis is better, since is better against discard, works wonders with Frantic Search, and double works as a win condition with Mnemonic Wall, so you don't have to run Compulsive Research.
Also, I like Words of Wisdom here...

Edit: last champ I used this deck, I went 3-0 (6-0), winning on turn 3 all 6 games. That's how consistent it is.
But in a format with FoW and daze (pauper has just Spell Pierce, Mana Leak and Spellstutter Sprite I guess), this deck would have to run some counters too, since it can't ignore them like Solidarity.

[JonBarber]

Happy birthday!!!!

[Ben]

Happy birthday!!!!

+1 to that

It will make this deck a lot of more fun to play with.. or more frustrate to play against.

[Dark Ritual]

Anyone have any idea's of how to incorporate time spiral into a list? The question is what to cut for it and whether it's good enough. The former is the key question while the latter seems to be obvious at first glance. Either way, looking forward to playing a card that accelerates you and draws you cards.

Is it worth it to up the land count to 18 or even 19, and cutting most of the snap faerie package altogether? Because that is what dissuaded me from playing the deck at first; removal in response to snap on the cloud of faeries always seemed like it would blow you out. Snap faerie package < time spiral at first glance to me.

+1 to the happy birthday comment JonBarber

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

A couple years ago Smennen intro'd a budget deck for Vintage called the tropical storm which was UG High tide with Time spirals seems like an interesting place to start. He went green for Fast Bond and admittedly was trying to abuse Mind's desire a card to which we do not have access however, i think there is some value in the work he has already done.

Personally, I think one card to which he didn't have access but that would be good in a Time Spiral based Tide deck is Explore. Playing an extra land seems amazing in the deck and is a fine turn 2 play which is a CA neutral play and a huge temp burst especially racing the format, and when you are going off with high tide it effectively cycles for free since you get to play a land which taps for an additional (at least) 2 mana, plus you get a an extra land and that makes your Time Spirals and Turnabouts much better.

[JonBarber]

A couple years ago Smennen intro'd a budget deck for Vintage called the tropical storm which was UG High tide with Time spirals seems like an interesting place to start. He went green for Fast Bond and admittedly was trying to abuse Mind's desire a card to which we do not have access however, i think there is some value in the work he has already done.

Personally, I think one card to which he didn't have access but that would be good in a Time Spiral based Tide deck is Explore. Playing an extra land seems amazing in the deck and is a fine turn 2 play which is a CA neutral play and a huge temp burst especially racing the format, and when you are going off with high tide it effectively cycles for free since you get to play a land which taps for an additional (at least) 2 mana, plus you get a an extra land and that makes your Time Spirals and Turnabouts much better.

Explore seems interesting. I was just testing a deck with exploration. It was great turn 1 or 2, but it was super dead late game. I was also testing a list with timespirals, diminishing returns, and LEDs.

[Gocho]

You can try 3 cards to put more lands into play:

Explore
Exploration
Summer bloom

The obvious slot to put in Time Spiral is the Turnabout one.
But I can't buy them because there aren't stock in any webshop, only 3 hours after the unban announcement, so I'm going to wait a little before test anything.

I hate you speculators...

[JonBarber]

I hate you speculators...

I'm sorry...

[Skeggi]

Anyone willing to dare post a possible list with Time Spiral? A sort of starting point, if you will.

[GoblinZ]

Anyone willing to dare post a possible list with Time Spiral? A sort of starting point, if you will.


I wish Time Spiral could strengthen the Spring tide, but without Franatic Search I wonder how it could work alone

[Jak]

I'll throw one out. Explore is interesting to me mostly just to be able to get to Time Spiral more effectively. Stuff like Meditate and Ideas Unbound probably don't need to be as high in numbers but I feel weird about cutting them without testing.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Explore
1 Brain Freeze
2 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral

SB
1 Brainfreeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Twincast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce

Just to start some discussion. The two Meditates in the main should probably be Preordain since Time Spiral shits all over Meditate.

Edit- Just realized the list still only has 16 lands. With Explore I'd probably up that to at least 18.

[frenchy-man]

Mmmh time spiral won't be the only card to have its price increase. Just watch out meditate too ;)

[lorddotm]

Mmmh time spiral won't be the only card to have its price increase. Just watch out meditate too ;)

Just bought myself a playset of Time Spirals for 24. Nice.

[egosum]

I' m sorry for the following post being so short.

I 'have lots of thought on this unbanning and list but I m overwhelmed by Universtiy work. Anyway I think a good start point will be a U/W spring tide-like list, adding white will be important for the control match up because chant effects are like a must in a D7 deck (I know xantid does something similar, but I m not a big fan of him in Legacy enviroment with all the creature hate out there).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Jak]

Played around with this... Definitely fun, but the build I posted definitely needs tweaks. Time Spiral resolving is basically game since you just keep chaining them and replaying High Tides and Merchant Scrolls 230479124387 times. Basically, Turnabout is bad (duh to me), Ideas Unbound and Meditate would be better as cantrips, and this deck really needs to go off turn 3.

8 Fetches
4 Tropical Island
6 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Explore
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral

3 ?

I really wish there 3 more Explore like cards. Ideas?

[egosum]

Ok, just couldn't concentrate with Time Spiral excitement... I' d like to share my origianal draft/list

U/W Spiral Tide

Main deck 60



4x Force of Will
2x Silence
2x Orim's Chant

4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
2x Peer through depths (prefer them over impusle because 12 1 CC cantrips taht can go for lands seem enough and reaching one extra card looking for the combo pieces seems better).

4x High Tide

1x Brainfreeze

4x Time Spiral
2x Meditate
2x Turnabout

(meditate and turnabout are necessary since they can be tutored with MS, while Time Spiral can't)

2x Tundra
8x Island
8x Blue Fetch (2 each)

Sideboard 15

1x Silence
1x Brainfreeze
1z Stroke of Genius
1x MEditate
1x Turnabout
2x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Reubild
1x Snap
1x Mindbreak Trap
3x Spell Pierce/Dsipel (depending on how many CB-Top are in your meta).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

I'm trying egosum's list, but with G instead of W.
So, I have Autumn's Veil instead of Silence/Chant, and -2 PtD, -1 Meditate, -1 Turnabout, +4 Explore.
They're just amazing... T3 kill protected is happening quite often...

[egosum]

Actually testing this:

"U/G Spiral Tide"

Main deck 60

4x Force of Will
2x Autumn's Veil

4x Merchant Scroll
2x Cunning Wish

4x Explore
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
2x Impulse

4x High Tide

1x Brainfreeze

4x Time Spiral
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Snap

3x Tropìcal Island
7x Island
8x Blue Fetch (2 each)

Sideboard 15

2x Autumn's Veil
1x Brainfreeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
2x Krosan Grip
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Reubild
1x Snap
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Defense Grid

You are right guys explore is just nuts in this build.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

You are right guys explore is just nuts in this build.-
Then why isn't any in your list?
Ps: I'd use 1 Hunting Pack in that SB...

[Michael Keller]

Explore is a nice touch. It seems to be working very well.

I know Anwar used to run it in his list; anyone considering Candelabra of Tawnos?

T1: Island, Candelabra, Go.
T2. Island, High Tide, Tap an Island for UU, Untap two Islands, and there's (at least) UUUU on turn two.

Seems good.

[egosum]

It was a trancsription mistake, Sorry about that.

Corrected.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. not sure about hunting pack being needed. It seems redundant. In what situations would we need that amount of critters?
P.S. candelabra of Twanos may be a good addition. Should think about it.

[GGoober]

What was the deck called? Permanent Waves? Mind over Matter + Candelabra. I think with Time Spiral unbanned, Spring Tide in that shell could be potent since drawing 7 cards would greatly increase the power of Mind over Matter. Also, would some weird list of MoM + Candelabra + Temple Bell + Time Spiral be viable? I think I have a deck that's starting to form in my mind.

I think Candelabra is the missing card that has not been explored. It is much akin to a sorcery-based reset.

2 Lands: Candelabra takes 2 mana to untap 2 lands to net 4-2=2 mana (reset would net 2 mana as well)
3 lands: Candelabra takes 3 mana to untap 3 lands to net 6-3=3 mana (reset would net 4 mana, +1 more)
4 lands: Candelabra takes 4 mana to untap 4 lands to net 8-4=4mana (reset would net 6 mana, +2 more)

At 4 lands (4 mana initial startup cost), this is comparable to Turnabout. It is obviously inferior to reset in everyway (based on land-count and netting mana) but you can drop Candelabra multiples and stock them up and that I believe its flexibility gives it its real strength. I think the first place in the list is to cut Snap/Faeries since these are 8 card slots that we can trim down. Do you guys agree with my analysis on Candelabra being a potential untapper? At 4 lands, it's basically a turnabout but has the flexibility to be stronger on turn 5 or be used on turns 2-3. If a list contained Candelabra, then 2 Mind Over Matter MD could be used to abuse its interaction and maintain permanent untapping effects. Mind over Matter is a post-combo card though, so 2 slots seems natural. With 4 Time Spirals, chaining into more draws and eventually MoM is quite easy.

4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos (think of this as a sorcery-based reset in the deck)
2 Mind over Matter
2 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral

4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Mediatate
2 Cunning Wish

1 Brainfreeze
4 Force of Will

3 Meditate + 4 Ideas Unbound + 4 Time Spiral = quite a ton of draw power, 8 cantrips, I'm just not sure on the draw/untap ratios in the deck with Time Spiral but the great thing about Time Spiral is that it fits both untapping and drawing into 1 card. I think Turnabouts can be cut entirely relying on just Candelabra and Time Spiral as untappers. If Time Spiral resolves, you don't have to worry about untapping ever again with the fresh 7. The only issue is it maybe hard to resolve Time Spirals and Turnabouts maybe needed as a backup plan.

I do want to work a UG list into this build so grabbing Grips against Counterbalance is great, or grabbing Hunting Pack against aggro, and potentially running Explore/Autumn's Veil.

But I honestly think the power of Time Spiral should be broken with Mind over Matter for this deck. Permanent Waves is the deck that I believe to get the biggest boost from this unbanning, but PW is just a Spring Tide deck so I rather discuss it here.

[Gocho]

Explore is a nice touch. It seems to be working very well.

I know Anwar used to run it in his list; anyone considering Candelabra of Tawnos?

T1: Island, Candelabra, Go.
T2. Island, High Tide, Tap an Island for UU, Untap two Islands, and there's (at least) UUUU on turn two.

Seems good.

Without Mind over matter Candelabra is worse than the other untappers. If you find Candelabra T1 or T2 it works like a Cloud of Faeries. If you can't find it, is worse because you have to pay x+1 to untap x islands. Just like Turnabout, but without the option to tap your opponent permanents.

It was tested many years ago, you can search the thread. We have 3 lists:
Solidarity with reset + Instants
Spring Tide with CoF + Snap + Sorceries
Eternal Waves with Candelabra + Mind over Matter.

Spring Tide was the fastest list of them.

[ScatmanX]

P.S. not sure about hunting pack being needed. It seems redundant. In what situations would we need that amount of critters?So far, it was not needed indeed...

[sporenfrosch1411]

First of all, i don't agree that Mind ver Matter is good here. It makes the deck clumsy andi don't see why we would need it. If we can resolve a Time Spiral in our Combo, that pretty much is the win. Why would we need Mind over Matter?
Please explain that ....

[PascalF]

I`ll have to test this further, but so far running Nature's Lore , 4 tropical Island and 2 breeding pool in the UG list has been giving me promising results.

[Michael Keller]

Without Mind over matter Candelabra is worse than the other untappers. If you find Candelabra T1 or T2 it works like a Cloud of Faeries. If you can't find it, is worse because you have to pay x+1 to untap x islands. Just like Turnabout, but without the option to tap your opponent permanents.

It was tested many years ago, you can search the thread. We have 3 lists:
Solidarity with reset + Instants
Spring Tide with CoF + Snap + Sorceries
Eternal Waves with Candelabra + Mind over Matter.

Spring Tide was the fastest list of them.

True, but you're also basing assumptions on a format that did not run Time Spiral as the primary protocol for a win condition. Candelabra does not functionally act similar to Snap or Cloud of Faeries because Candelabra is more permanent-based utility and doesn't require the additional casting of a creature or miscellaneous "claused-in" untap ability to be effective. It costs cheaper, and you're realistically not going to activate it unless you really need to at the point of casting a High Tide, in which case, casting a spell at that point becomes riskier each subsequent time. Mathematically they may be on par, but we're talking about situational Magic here.

Most people are going to let a turn one Candelabra resolve. Most people are not however going to let a Cloud of Faeries or Snap resolve after you've cast High Tide, only to cripple your capability of untapping your resources in the event of an incapacitated mana count. An opponent should counter or stop High Tide in its tracks, but assuming we're basing our presumptions on a lower land count (say, three or four), then the card that ultimately untaps your resources becomes the key to securing the victory.

A clever opponent may want to try and nab some card advantage before dedicating their first counter to your first spell.

Also, this archetype needs more Xantid Swarm. It couldn't hurt to test it out.

[Jurrit]

Since the unban of Time Spiral I wanted to look into this deck. I see allot of talk about Explore and other green cards.

Can somebody explain me what is the use of Explore in the deck and what is the correct way to use the card in Spring Tide?

[GGoober]

First of all, i don't agree that Mind ver Matter is good here. It makes the deck clumsy andi don't see why we would need it. If we can resolve a Time Spiral in our Combo, that pretty much is the win. Why would we need Mind over Matter?
Please explain that ....


Because Mind over Matter makes Candelabra insane, which so happens that Mind over Matter works decent with Time Spiral, and Candelabra Spring Tide is something that's been abandoned in the pre-Time Spiral era. Mind Over Matter was already decent pre-Time Spiral, it just wasn't fast enough or worth it. With Time Spiral, you not only dig into it easily, but you don't necessarily need it, but if you do draw it, you will hardly be able to fizzle from an manasource perspective. Who knows if it's good, but it's definitely worth exploring since no one knows for sure what a post-Time-Spiral Spring Tide list would function. Might be powerful, might be bad. But in all honesty, I can only see good things with Time Spiral. Whether it pushes Spring Tide to tier 1, that's another question, and is what the thread discussion is trying to figure out.

But you're right, Mind Over Matter maybe a win-more card, but I'm not sure if just Candelabra alone would do the job. It should, based on the analysis given in my previous post. The only drawback to Candelabra is setting it up and using 1 mana which may argubly slow the deck down.

Jurrit: the more lands you have, the more mana you get, and the more lands you have, the stronger is Time Spiral. Explore is alright because i cantrips, so it is not dead weight in the deck pre/post comboing.

[Dark Ritual]

Mind over matter seems pretty clunky...it's 6 mana after all. Candelabra of tawnos, however, seems to have merit even without MoM. If you play it on the turn before you combo, it is essentially a reset maybe depending on how many lands you have when you combo out.

On explore. I like it here; it seems janky at first glance but maybe that's because it's explore that card from worldwake lol. Summer bloom might work as a 1 of because when comboing it could work really good if you draw some lands to play 3 additional lands when you already have 3 or more lands out there. I guess it doesn't cantrip though. Nature's lore < Explore IMO almost all the time. They cost the same and explore cantrips while nature's lore can only get forests. Here's a UG list I plan on goldfishing a lot today:

Lands 18
8 Blue Fetches
4 Tropical Island
6 Island

Sorceries 16
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Explore
1 Summer Bloom

Instants 22
4 High Tide
2 Cunning Wish
2 Meditate
4 Force of Will
1 Brain freeze
3 Snap
2 Autumn's Veil
4 Brainstorm

Creatures 4
4 Cloud of Faeries

Sideboard:
2 Autumn's Veil
1 Brain freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Meditate
4 Dispel
3 Spell Pierce

[Jurrit]

Ok, so that is it. But do you play Explore whenever you can, or when you're comboing out? (Or doesn't it matter?)

Actually, is there a game plan or a "How to play guide" in the Thread for the deck? I read through the first page but didn't find it that clear on the actual way to play.

(I've always been a Thesh / 'midrange' blue player so combo is a little new to me, hence the questions.)

[PascalF]

Nature's lore < Explore IMO almost all the time. They cost the same and explore cantrips while nature's lore can only get forests.



The Cantrip is deceptive, since you`ll have the same handsize whether you play Lore or Explore+ Land.
If you don`t have an additional land for explore you`ll get a random card, which imo is less useful than a tropical/pool.

Do note however that the list I tested Lore in was more like Egosums , with 12 1 mana cantrips and less untap effects.

[Dark Ritual]

I just goldfished some games with the list I just posted and the deck is insane. I love being able to hardcast force of will as a protection spell; explore is better than nature's lore because I typically get all my mana producing lands in play when I combo out via explore, time spiral into more lands, etc. you get the picture. Summer bloom seems a little win more at first but what it is is LED in this deck during the combo; it's that good because playing 3 lands with high tide active = 6 mana at minimum for a cost of 1G. The last game I played I actually failed to find on some fetches late in the combo. I might actually add more mana producing lands to the deck probably 2 islands in place of 2 fetches. But so far the deck looks very promising. Autumn's veil is a tad bit unsynergystic with cloud of faeries I just realized you can't snap a CoF back to your hand with an active autumn's veil. I might test something else in those 2 slots; maybe another meditate and ideas unbound. Or turnabout maybe. Time spiral untapping 6 lands total = GG's most of the time because you will usually get excessive mana off of casting so many high tide's post time spiral and before time spiral obviously. It's a shame you can't tutor for it with merchant scroll but that's what meditate is for; tutor for meditate, cast it, and you will probably find time spiral with ease.

[Gocho]

Most people are going to let a turn one Candelabra resolve. Most people are not however going to let a Cloud of Faeries or Snap resolve after you've cast High Tide, only to cripple your capability of untapping your resources in the event of an incapacitated mana count. An opponent should counter or stop High Tide in its tracks, but assuming we're basing our presumptions on a lower land count (say, three or four), then the card that ultimately untaps your resources becomes the key to securing the victory.

A clever opponent may want to try and nab some card advantage before dedicating their first counter to your first spell.

Also, this archetype needs more Xantid Swarm. It couldn't hurt to test it out.

The deck needs to resolve High Tide to win,why would someone counter your untap effects?
Candelabra was tested and discarded. If you want to test it, go on, but it isn't better than the other untap effects if you don't play Voltaic Key or MoM. It could be the same if you cast it before the combo turn, but most of the time you are going to draw them latter.

But I agree in Xantid Swarm. Xantid + Autumn's Veil seems promising.

[GGoober]

sadly Autumn's veil does nothing against countertop, which is going to be popular again with the fall of Vengevival. If you're splashing green, you could go with City of Solitude, or Abeyance if you go white (Abeyance is quite the house if you're doing a white spalsh against control/counter/countertop) and it cantrips

[kilukru]

I say : Krosan grip in the side can take care of counterbalance. Wipe away is also good since he take out hatebear. Both are wishable

[ScatmanX]

I say : Krosan grip in the side can take care of counterbalance. Wipe away is also good since he take out hatebear. Both are wishable
And Wipe Away is also tutorable.
Do you guys think City os Solitude would be good against CB too?

[jrsthethird]

Played around with this... Definitely fun, but the build I posted definitely needs tweaks. Time Spiral resolving is basically game since you just keep chaining them and replaying High Tides and Merchant Scrolls 230479124387 times. Basically, Turnabout is bad (duh to me), Ideas Unbound and Meditate would be better as cantrips, and this deck really needs to go off turn 3.

I really wish there 3 more Explore like cards. Ideas?

Coiling Oracle??

With 12 1-mana cantrips you can easily set up a turn 2 Oracle that will net you a land.

Summer Bloom seems good as a mid-combo accelerant, but usually not something you'd want to start with. Maybe 4 Explore, 2 Oracle, 1 Bloom?

[Dark Ritual]

I can go off turn 3 pretty consistently with the list I posted above; explore is insane, summer bloom is insane as a 1 of not more because you don't want them clogging your hand and you only have so many lands you can play in one game lol.

Coiling oracle would be good in a one mana cantrip heavy list IMO to abuse it the most. Because then you wouldn't be revealing blind cards on turn 2 very much; and during the combo it's storm +1 if you reveal a land because you'll have high tide active making tropical island tap for UG/it's mana cost or it just cantrips into more spells/business.

City of solitude is decent against countertop; as long as they don't have a one drop on top at the end of their turn that is or a 2 drop which makes it hard to win when it shuts off ideas unbound, merchant scroll, snap, cloud of faeries, explore, and summers bloom. Overall though I believe the best answer to be wipe away; tutorable so it's a 7 of essentially 9 of if you count cunning wish -> wipe away. Although cunning wish should probably grab k grip since k grip just destroys the blasted card. Additionally if we splashed red for burning wish we could run pyroblast/red elemental blast to combat balance very effectively since we don't run LED and it can protect us from countermagic as well as well as meddling mage.

Also, countering high tide is the right move with this deck. Like really, what does this deck do without ritual effects/high tide? It sits there until it finds another one.

Also, what are peoples opinions of turn aside? It reads U: Counter target spell that targets a permanent you control. Can be useful to either stop vindicate/sinkhole or removal on our cloud of faeries in response to a snap. Unfortunately it does not stop wasteland though.

[Jak]

7 Fetches
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
5 Island

4 Explore
3 Nature's Lore

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Impulse
4 Merchant Scroll

4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish
2 Meditate
1 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral

Nature's Lore is great. Totally forgot about it. It isn't as great mid combo since Explore at least cantrips but it is there to setup the turn 3 kill which is what this deck needs in order to be playable.

[Rico Suave]

I can go off turn 3 pretty consistently with the list I posted above; explore is insane, summer bloom is insane as a 1 of not more because you don't want them clogging your hand and you only have so many lands you can play in one game lol.

You can't possibly be going off turn 3 consistently. It is mathematically impossible to do it more than 50% of the time with that deck.


Also, what are peoples opinions of turn aside? It reads U: Counter target spell that targets a permanent you control. Can be useful to either stop vindicate/sinkhole or removal on our cloud of faeries in response to a snap. Unfortunately it does not stop wasteland though.

You should play Teferi's Response. It even removes Rishadan Port.

[Zork]

For all these G splashes, would Carpet of Flowers warrant SB testing against blue decks? I'll admit I'm not experienced with spring tide despite owning all of it (except Time Spiral... crap), but it seems like it could help get the mana to go off through countermagic.

[Dark Ritual]

Maybe I'm just ripping like a champion then...because turn 3 is when I try to go off every game and I have yet to fail. Turn 2 explore into another land into turn 3 4 lands on the table is sick. And casting more than 4 high tides in one game is amazing accel lol tapping one land for 8 mana is just ridiculous thanks to time spiral. Time spiral is just the absolute nuts in this deck it's unreal. You rarely draw 7 bad cards; and also the snap cloud of faeries engine is sick. It can accel you some then draw you a card via cycling the faerie that you just bounced to you hand. Cycling is tech lulz. And merchant scroll is very good despite the only card draw it can find being meditate that's often good enough. 5 mana to draw 4 cards seems bad but in reality it is very good especially post time spiral. Or even before prior to time spiral to draw into a time spiral. Time spiral is broken. Ban time spiral wizards j/k I'm going to love playing spring tide come january 1st. The deck is absolutely insane. Still might need a little tweaking to make it better though.

[Michael Keller]

The deck needs to resolve High Tide to win,why would someone counter your untap effects?
Candelabra was tested and discarded. If you want to test it, go on, but it isn't better than the other untap effects if you don't play Voltaic Key or MoM. It could be the same if you cast it before the combo turn, but most of the time you are going to draw them latter.

But I agree in Xantid Swarm. Xantid + Autumn's Veil seems promising.

You missed what I wrote, apparently; I'm basing this on the presumption that the player running Spring Tide has three or four lands out in an attempt to go off. If that player casts High Tide, leaving two or three untapped lands, why would you not at least consider holding back a counter to knock out the second spell following up High Tide? You're only going to be left with U or UU after the fact (looking for an answer), and that really isn't going to be enough to keep up your attempt at going off that active turn.

Unless you have Force of Will, in which case your attempt at going off is now short a potential enabler being pitched.

[Rico Suave]

You missed what I wrote, apparently; I'm basing this on the presumption that the player running Spring Tide has three or four lands out in an attempt to go off. If that player casts High Tide, leaving two or three untapped lands, why would you not at least consider holding back a counter to knock out the second spell following up High Tide? You're only going to be left with U or UU after the fact (looking for an answer), and that really isn't going to be enough to keep up your attempt at going off that active turn.

Unless you have Force of Will, in which case your attempt at going off is now short a potential enabler being pitched.

Because the opponent can also just cast something like Dispel, and in that case it's better to make them cast Dispel before the High Tide resolves (otherwise they are up 1 free mana in the process).

[emidln]

I mentioned this on storm boards, but it seems relevant enough to post here too.

Everyone is sacrificing consistency and speed for some shitty green cards. Explore might be really good, but you'll never know since you're losing infinite games due to only have 6 untap effects. Before Time Spiral was legal, this archetype was built on consistency through redundancy. There is no reason that upgrading an untap effect should change this. You still need Cloud of Faeries and/or Turnabout as a secondary/tertiary untap effect and you still need Ideas Unbound and/or Meditate, in multiples, to have a consistent draw engine when your Time Spiral isn't drawn (it's not tutorable via scroll) or gets countered. When you cut all of the "cruft" like Turnabout, Cloud of Faeries, Ideas Unbound, and Meditate, you lose everything that potentially makes Spring Tide so much better than Solidarity (a faster, more consistent kill). Trading a consistent draw/untap engine on turn 3 for an inconsistent draw/untap engine on turn 4 is something you could already do (probably better) by just playing stock Solidarity with Resets. The 12 cantrip configuration won't do you any good if you're trying to rely on a 1-of untap effect to actually get to 6 mana.

tl;dr: don't skimp on the card advantage and untap effects for terribad shit like rampant growth

[SMR0079]

I mentioned this on storm boards, but it seems relevant enough to post here too.

Everyone is sacrificing consistency and speed for some shitty green cards. Explore might be really good, but you'll never know since you're losing infinite games due to only have 6 untap effects. Before Time Spiral was legal, this archetype was built on consistency through redundancy. There is no reason that upgrading an untap effect should change this. You still need Cloud of Faeries and/or Turnabout as a secondary/tertiary untap effect and you still need Ideas Unbound and/or Meditate, in multiples, to have a consistent draw engine when your Time Spiral isn't drawn (it's not tutorable via scroll) or gets countered. When you cut all of the "cruft" like Turnabout, Cloud of Faeries, Ideas Unbound, and Meditate, you lose everything that potentially makes Spring Tide so much better than Solidarity (a faster, more consistent kill). Trading a consistent draw/untap engine on turn 3 for an inconsistent draw/untap engine on turn 4 is something you could already do (probably better) by just playing stock Solidarity with Resets. The 12 cantrip configuration won't do you any good if you're trying to rely on a 1-of untap effect to actually get to 6 mana.

tl;dr: don't skimp on the card advantage and untap effects for terribad shit like rampant growth

QFT

I cut Ideas Unbound for TimeSpiral, replaced the shitty cantrips with Ponder and Preordain and thats the deck. Splashing green for Swarms and Grips is reasonable, but once you start getting tricky with Explore and shit, you only open yourself up to getting beat by WAsteland and the danger of cool things.

BtW, this deck is for real.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Hey guys, what if, like, we ran Emrakul in the sideboard? You know, to just hardcast?

[Gocho]

If you play Meditate + Ideas Unbound, Emrakul isn't a good option.

[ddt15]

I've been thinking; wouldn't it make more sense to put in a little extra protection, so you could survive until turn 3-4 and then force your combo through? In other words going more combo-control. You could drop a bit of the draw since a single resolved Spiral should always be game.

Then again Power Sink is not as hot as it was under the old rules.

[ScatmanX]

I've been thinking; wouldn't it make more sense to put in a little extra protection, so you could survive until turn 3-4 and then force your combo through? In other words going more combo-control. You could drop a bit of the draw since a single resolved Spiral should always be game.

Then again Power Sink is not as hot as it was under the old rules.
The point is, running 6 protec MB is good enough.
Also, the deck will use 4 Time Spiral, but it does not need to cast it to win.

What I'm founding great here is that I can try to go off turn 3-4, and if everything gets countered, next turn I can just High Tide->Time Spiral, and combo out. That reset button is awesome.

@Emrakul: just like Haunting Pack, it can be a win more, but could certainly be tryed out.

[I am the brainwasher]

Emrakul has been tried out already, the Springtide list with the Red-splash which made 1st place in Tourney with more than 200 people I think played 2 in the sb as secret ninja tech and it worked out well, thats what he told. Improving Sneakshow isnt a bad thing either I think (and the mirror).
As far as I tested I really liked that fugly pasta legend. The most important thing was mentioned by SctamanX:
Time Spiral is just that great because of its ability to have an epic reset button with only 1 High Tide in addition. Thats the only reason for the card in this deck I think. It worked out very well before and pre-ban survival it was nearly kinda hard to not make TOP8 with Spring Tide. With the expected new rise of CB-Top decks things could turn around a bit, but are definetly not the decks proofed death. It'll be much harder, especially if Ichorid is going to be played more often but Time Spiral COULD compensate those developments because it makes it so much more consistent and the deck can really win out of nowhere with it.

[number88]

I think Time Spiral is nice. It's a Swiss knife card. It's Meditate+Turnabout in one package.
The problem with this deck is protection. ANT has Thoughtseize and Duress. TES has Orim's Chant. Belcher use Xantid Swarm. What does this deck have? Turnabout?

[ddt15]

I think Time Spiral is nice. It's a Swiss knife card. It's Meditate+Turnabout in one package.
The problem with this deck is protection. ANT has Thoughtseize and Duress. TES has Orim's Chant. Belcher use Xantid Swarm. What does this deck have? Turnabout?
Well 4 Force obviously, I've also got 2 Misdirection in mine instead of Remands. Time Spiral should ease the pain of the card disadvantage somewhat.

[ScatmanX]

I think Time Spiral is nice. It's a Swiss knife card. It's Meditate+Turnabout in one package.
The problem with this deck is protection. ANT has Thoughtseize and Duress. TES has Orim's Chant. Belcher use Xantid Swarm. What does this deck have? Turnabout?
I'm testing Mono U with 4 Force + 2 Pact of Negation. There is plenty of room in the sb for Dispel/Spell Pierce.
Next year I'm going to try out the UW version. Chantwalking a deck like Counterbalance may be fun...

[emidln]

Well 4 Force obviously, I've also got 2 Misdirection in mine instead of Remands. Time Spiral should ease the pain of the card disadvantage somewhat.

There is no reason at all that you can't play any disruption that ANT plays. Due to the use of draw7s, you're probably going to only reach for duress/thoughtseize when you're in a very heavy CB metagame (and even then, perhaps just for KGrips and Cunning Wishes). Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Dispel, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Chant, Silence, Autumn's Veil, and Xantid Swarm all seem like tier 1 protection in a deck that probably wants 4-8 of its own in the maindeck.

[Anusien]

I mentioned this on storm boards, but it seems relevant enough to post here too.

Everyone is sacrificing consistency and speed for some shitty green cards. Explore might be really good, but you'll never know since you're losing infinite games due to only have 6 untap effects. Before Time Spiral was legal, this archetype was built on consistency through redundancy. There is no reason that upgrading an untap effect should change this. You still need Cloud of Faeries and/or Turnabout as a secondary/tertiary untap effect and you still need Ideas Unbound and/or Meditate, in multiples, to have a consistent draw engine when your Time Spiral isn't drawn (it's not tutorable via scroll) or gets countered. When you cut all of the "cruft" like Turnabout, Cloud of Faeries, Ideas Unbound, and Meditate, you lose everything that potentially makes Spring Tide so much better than Solidarity (a faster, more consistent kill). Trading a consistent draw/untap engine on turn 3 for an inconsistent draw/untap engine on turn 4 is something you could already do (probably better) by just playing stock Solidarity with Resets. The 12 cantrip configuration won't do you any good if you're trying to rely on a 1-of untap effect to actually get to 6 mana.

tl;dr: don't skimp on the card advantage and untap effects for terribad shit like rampant growth
emidln's premise here "Don't cut relevant effects for cute junk" is correct. Having a critical mass of Turnabout, Cloud of Faeries and such is critical to being able to go off turn 3.

I don't think the answer to finding Time Spiral more often is to play a ton of junk like Ideas Unbound and Meditate. I think the answer is run a lot of tutoring and cantrips like Personal Tutor. Ideally, you build the deck with two premises:
A) Cast Time Spiral as fast and reliably as possible.
B) Maximize your ability to cast Time Spiral #2 off Time Spiral #1.

[ScatmanX]

Ideally, you build the deck with two premises:
A) Cast Time Spiral as fast and reliably as possible.
B) Maximize your ability to cast Time Spiral #2 off Time Spiral #1.
Having Meditate and Ideas Unbund makes you do not necessarily have to cast Time Spiral, and that's huge. You can start comboing, and, 10 spells later, you fins Time Spiral, and cast it.
Personal Tutor seems very bad. Card Disadvantage is bad here, and it can't search for anwesers, unless you go for Tutor -> Scroll, wich is a ton of mana.
7 Cantrips is what I'm running. I loved the 12 Cantrip versions, but it made the deck too Time Spiral conditional, so imo, weaker.

[fdiv_bug]

I managed to find a good deal on some Time Spirals, and I've always liked Brain Freeze combo decks, so I've been following this new discussion with some attention. Thanks to everyone for sharing their experience. Is there a standard list that people have been working with? I was planning on testing with the following, but is there anything clearly wrong with it?

4 Time Spiral
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain
3 Turnabout
3 Snap
3 Ponder
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Rebuild
1 Turnabout
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Misdirection
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Spell Pierce


Like I said, I'm new to the deck, so any advice is appreciated.

[Scordata]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it might not be worth keeping brainfreeze in the maindeck.
My meta has a some emrakul players, and I'd honestly opt for 2 strokes in the main. One for me and one for them.

Scroll Rack could get some use here, as extra reach mid combo.

[jrsthethird]

If you splash black you get Bubbling Muck for your Underground Seas!!

[fdiv_bug]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it might not be worth keeping brainfreeze in the maindeck.
My meta has a some emrakul players, and I'd honestly opt for 2 strokes in the main. One for me and one for them.
That's a fair point, but I like the redundancy and not having to rely on Cunning Wish to get there. We also don't have any Emrakul players in our local meta, but I'll keep your pointer in mind if I go to any larger events where I might find some. :smile:

[emidln]

Tolarian Winds, while bad, is better than Scroll Rack. I wouldn't suggest either.

You only need 1 Stroke of Genius since you can use Time Spiral to get it back if you use it to draw for yourself.

[juge]

My opinion is (as ddt15 also wrote) that with Time Spiral, you can build the Deck more like a straight combo deck.
The combo is 4 Islands + High Tide + Time Spiral. You don't need any other untappers like Cloud of Faeries. You just need to resolve a Time Spiral and then win.
So I play Tutors like Merchant Scroll and Personal Tutor and Cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder and Peer through Depths to find the Combo parts.
And then you have more free slots for Protection, for exmaple Counters in a Monoblue list.

Here is my list:


4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Peer through Depths

4 High Tide
4 Time Twister

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Personal Tutor

1 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish

1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze

4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
13 Island

SB:
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Snap
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away



You could also add Black for discard:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Thoughsize
2 Duress

4 High Tide
4 Time Twister

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Personal Tutor

2 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish

1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
8 Island
4 Underground Sea


What do you think about these lists?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think in a metagame that's as heavy on wastelands, such as now, a splash in this list that is dependent on having a minimum of three lands in play for the entire time of comboing off, a dual land off the board is a swell notion for an opponent to have. I think the best spring tide will be mono-blue.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Time Twister ehhh, that would be awesome...

What about Candelabra of Tawnos? Doesn't this card belong in the deck as a 4 of?

[juge]

oops, should be Time Spiral, not Time Twister, lol:laugh:

[Rico Suave]

I don't see the point in running discard when you're just going to cast Time Spiral to refill their hand again. Why run black? It doesn't solve any problems that blue can't already handle effectively.

[number88]

True. Silence or Xantid Swarm is better option than discard.My suggestion is to play mono blue, though.

[Michael Keller]

Time Twister ehhh, that would be awesome...

What about Candelabra of Tawnos? Doesn't this card belong in the deck as a 4 of?

Already brought that up. People seem to believe it doesn't belong here, yet I'm goldfishing turn three wins constantly with this in play.

[lorddotm]

Already brought that up. People seem to believe it doesn't belong here, yet I'm goldfishing turn three wins constantly with this in play.

How is this deck better than a deck that plays Ten Drills and Dark Rituals?

[Scordata]

@lorddotm:
It's not. But we're here working on it, to maybe give the meta another force to be reckoned with.
Can't hurt to tinker.

[Aggro_zombies]

It seems like adding a bunch of counters to this deck isn't the best plan. What if you're playing against something that isn't blue, and you need to get to 15 or more storm so you can successfully Brain Freeze? Counter your own spells just to get there? I understand that Time Spiral makes it easier to build your storm count, but it still seems like having more than 4 Force is asking for diminishing returns against a lot of decks (and no, I don't mean the card).

That said, borrowing Remand from Solidarity seems like a good call because it makes it easier to build to a lethal Brain Freeze while still acting as a serviceable counter.

[MGC_player]

I've actually been using Remand in my list (3 main 1 in side) and I am always reluctant to cut it. It's been a house and has often been the key to me comboing out on turn 3.

As for Candelabra, I wish I had those. Proxy testing for me has shown good results with them.

[ddt15]

Well personally I think that with Time Spiral you can build the deck much more control oriented than Spring Tide, if you look at old High Tide for example:

Extended High Tide
Kai Budde

16 Island
4 Thawing Glaciers
3 Volcanic Island
4 High Tide
3 Frantic Search
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
1 Palinchron
3 Stroke of Genius
2 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

You see that he runs 10(!) Counterspells, and only 3 Frantic Search/3 Turnabout to ramp up to a Time Spiral. The thing is Time Spiral generates so much mana and cards that once it resolves, you can keep comboing out with additional Spirals or load all that extra mana into a huge Stroke of Genius; which with Spiral in the deck is much better than meditate, as it can take advantage of the big mana from Spiral, while doubling as a kill card. Of this list only Frantic Search is banned, and he doesn't even play four. While not so good as Frantic Search, Cloud of Fearies can perform the same function to accelerate into a Spiral on turn 3.

I think this is the way to go; much more control oriented, which helps to survive, stop the opponent, or if need force your combo through, with Tide+Spiral as its kill. This additional protection helps you from the 'combo out now or lose' scenarios that you face with a much more pure combo-oriented approach such as Spring Tide without Spirals has, while still having the ability to go off turn 3/4 consistently.

We could even copy the red splash for REB's against Fish decks. Which will probably resurface now with Survi gone.

I propose something like this (quick rough list):

lands 20
11 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Mysty Rainforest

Combo 14
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Cloud of Fearies

Search & Draw 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
2 Stroke of Genius

Control 11
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away

With Stroke, Brain Freeze, REB, Snap, etc in the sideboard. This is much more a classic High Tide combo/control deck than Spring Tide or even Solidarity.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

You see that he runs 10(!) Counterspells, and only 3 Frantic Search/3 Turnabout to ramp up to a Time Spiral. The thing is Time Spiral generates so much mana and cards that once it resolves, you can keep comboing out with additional Spirals or load all that extra mana into a huge Stroke of Genius; which with Spiral in the deck is much better than meditate, as it can take advantage of the big mana from Spiral, while doubling as a kill card. Of this list only Frantic Search is banned, and he doesn't even play four. While not so good as Frantic Search, Cloud of Fearies can perform the same function to accelerate into a Spiral on turn 3.

I think this is the way to go; much more control oriented, which helps to survive, stop the opponent, or if need force your combo through, with Tide+Spiral as its kill. This additional protection helps you from the 'combo out now or lose' scenarios that you face with a much more pure combo-oriented approach such as Spring Tide without Spirals has, while still having the ability to go off turn 3/4 consistently.

Budde's opponents were playing Megrim Jar, Academy and Trix, probably the 3 most powerful combo decks in the context of their format in MTG history. Modern Spring Tide's opponents will most likely be Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins. 10 counterspells was borne more out of necessity (and I suppose a shallower card pool) than out of any real desire to run random jank like Arcane Denial. The format, barring it's combo decks' insane explosive starts, was much slower than Legacy's aggro decks. Assuming you manage to win the t1 counterwar (i.e. with 10 counterspells) over an attempt at Stroke of Genius for a billion, you probably now have a ton of time to go off as the Jar/Academy/Necro deck tries to topdeck its way back into the game. Versus Wild Nacatl/ Aether Vial, notsomuch.

Apparently, the biggest hindrance to Spring Tide's development now is new players throwing just anything into the deck in place of cards that actually matter. Counterspell... over Meditate? Spell Pierce... over Snap? It's hard enough to combo off with 8 draw spells let alone one that exiles itself upon resolution. I couldn't imagine the goldfish speed of that deck... maybe turn 30? Consistency is what you lose when you cut the relevant cards for dead draws that don't even sufficiently protect your combo against its supposed goldfish matchups.

[ddt15]

Then why would you play High Tide at all? Even if Frantic Search were unbanned, as a pure combo deck, it will still be strictly inferior to TES/ANT in every way.

[joostp]

Actually I think it's not more than appropriate to look at older lists (actually those lists had or were close to DTB-status)
There are actually few cards (maybe none) that actually IMPROVE those lists.
Cards like Time Spiral and Candelabra are winmore conditions, as soon as you meet the requirements to abuse them you can actually finish off your opponent with a Wish -> Kill, if not, you have succesfully ruined your list by cutting cards that actually matter for silly stuff like discard (which makes the deck vulnerable to wasteland, going full-basic matters!) and additional counters.

[Grollub]

Then why would you play High Tide at all? Even if Frantic Search were unbanned, as a pure combo deck, it will still be strictly inferior to TES/ANT in every way.
Tide isn't a combo deck, it's a control deck with a combo finish.

[Nessaja]

If you're not going to win on speed, as you're not beating TES or ANT in that area, you might as well win slower with more control.

[Damoxx]

I don't think people should discount thawing glaciers right away. I agree that in Legacy, where Wastelands are running around, it is inferior to fetchlands. However, on the turn you are going off it is reusable and can pull multiple lands out of you deck, which in turn generates much more mana when you turnabout/Palinchron (if you are going that route).

[Iranon]

Spring Tide has a few natural advantages:
- remarkable consistency
- robust mana base
- plenty of creature bounce
- hard counters
- good cantrips and tutors, big draw spells can also be used for setup in a pinch
- easy fit for more control cards or bizarre tech

It's neither terribly fast nor terribly powerful, but it can capitalise on its advantages... it just needs to find its place between faster all-engine combos and 'compact combo plus permission tools'.
Cramming the deck full of high-end spells is probably going to to make it inferior to the latter. Spring Tide's advantages come from being full of relatively cheap and light tools that can be used both for winning, fighting hate or disrupting one's opponent.

[egosum]

Some more testing is done and it seems that there is an almost forgotten card (nobaody seemed to talk about it for this build) that is working incrdeible.


"N.S.T. - Negation Spiral Tide"

Main deck 60

4x Force of Will
4x Pact of Negation

4x Merchant Scroll
2x Cunning Wish

4x Explore
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

4x High Tide

1x Brainfreeze

4x Time Spiral
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Snap

3x Tropìcal Island
7x Island
8x Blue Fetch (2 each)

Sideboard 15

1x Brainfreeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
2x Krosan Grip
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Reubild
1x Snap
1x Mindbreak Trap
4x Spell Pierce/Dispel (to make the mirror, or the match against ther combo, stronger, I ' m fan of spell peirce over dispell since it is stronger against Tendrils storm, to protect discards and counterbalance, though dispel is better for the mirror.)

The A. Veil seemed week fo costing mana, if you want to go off protected by them you need an extra land drop, normally. This is solved by pact of negation. Also with all the cheap cantrip (and runnign 8 free protection spells) you won't have problems finding them again after a D7 to protect from the potential counterspells that your opponent may have drawn.

Against the counterbalnce match you may always want to side them out in order to add the Spell Pierce, since the match will be slower and you need extra balance protection.

Meditate seems also a week card but having 1 of may not hurt, though I' m thinkng of cutting it for a 2nd turnabout since a 2nd turn: high tide --> turnabout --> Time Spiral, with 3 lands on table is very strong, remember you have 8 protection spells, all of them free. The same with Snap, though I'm keeping it as a solution for gaddock teeg but it may be the 3rd turnabout maybe...

I know I ' m repeating but Explore seems like an staple in this build, I' m alway trying to cut the green splash but it seems that you cannot replace the explore in the mono U list; I tried Thawing Glaciers but they are hell too slow.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[GGoober]

I like the idea of Pact. It works great post Time Spiralling. And is great pre-combo and is really the card I think the deck needs to squeeze in another protection with no cost when going off with High Tide. Ideally Chant/Abeyance is the best option, but the white splash is much weaker than green splash with Explore. Argubly Monoblue should be the way to go to increase consistency by not losing your lands to Wastelands. Even if you cracked your land to go off on turn 3, a Wasteland effectively translates to a loss of 2 mana per untapping, which would be critical, although I can see the merits of Explore + Trops dodging wastelands by making more land drops.

Although one thing to note with your list Egotum, aside from being reliant on High Tide (we can't deal with that), your list is reliant on Time Spiral. Your only draw power comes from 4 Ideas Unbound and 1 Meditate. But as long as you Spiral, I think your 8 FoW list is going to do great.

Spring Tide is looking more and more like a control-combo deck than it used to be (it was somewhat control-combo to some extent in the pasT). But your list looks more control-combo. I think there's definitely potential with that list. The insane thing with Time Spiral for this deck is: We can afford to cut cards to run answers/anti-hate from the SB without risking fizzling. The main problem with Tide combo was the inability to maintain consistency post sideboard, after diluting the ratios of untap/draws. With Time Spiral, the draw7 will be greatly beneficial in improving this consistency, while allowing the deck to run anti-hate cards and afford diluting the MD more than it used to be.

[Dark Ritual]

If you want to play a true combo control deck, play solidarity with more counters, more repeals, etc. etc. Spring tide does not attempt to control the game it attempts to win on turn 3 which is NOT worse than TES/ANT/DDFT. Those decks typically go off on turn 3 as well if not turn 4 and sometimes they go off on turn 1 or 2 either fighting through no disruption or getting the godhand of LED, LED, LED, IT, Dark Rit, Lotus Petal, Duress. Spring tide can even go off on turn 2 sometimes.

And Kai Budde was facing a different metagame when he packed 10 counterspells. Megrim jar, trix, etc. etc. all broken decks in their own right.

Thawing glaciers is awful. Anyone who plays that card in legacy deserves to get shot. Lol, in response to your untap effect, waste your glaciers? Awwww, sorry you can't fetch up another land then untap it again to pull the same trick. Like really, thawing glaciers? In a combo deck? Just wrong.

Also egosum please replace the snap in your list with a cloud of faeries. CoF cycles and does the same thing, untapping 2 lands. Or is is because it is a merchant scroll target? If that's true, you should maybe cut some of the one mana cantrip cards for cloud of faeries. Also, using your last 2 mana to cast snap, only to have it countered via their countermagic or removal on the said creature, can be a blowout even with the 8 free protection spells in your list. When do you typically go off? Turn 4 or something? Your list seems slow.

[GGoober]

I believe Snap can be tutored for emergency or to work against postboard Canonist/MMages. Dark Ritual, I know Solidarity isn't meant to be played as a control-combo deck, but dont you think that the ability to use Time Spiral now effectively means: resolve Time Spiral = win? Which in turn means that you need whatever you can to resolve Time Spiral (steep 6cmc cost so Pact is nice here), and also to have more free counter post-Time Spiral when your opponents draw counters?

I know Solidarity is the control-combo deck of choice due to its nature of winning on the opposing turn, but I feel that he control-combo approach maybe a viable option for Spring Tide now that the emphasis is on resolving Time Spirals? The deck can win without Time Spirals but it seems that lists abusing Time Spiral would be stronger than lists not abusing Time Spiral.

God, why was glaciers discussed? That card is only good in EDH, and even then I do not run it since it's too slow :/

[Dark Ritual]

Solidarity combo's off at the latest time possible. Not before. That to me is control combo in and of itself. If you shove 4 repeal, 4 remand, 4 FoW, and some snaps maybe solidarity would play like a control combo deck; winning at the last possible moment is what solidarity is about since it is made up of only instant speed cards. Spring tide can't do that. We go off at sorcery speed/as soon as possible. The 2 deck types are vastly different when it comes to card choices and when it comes to comboing especially now that time spiral is legal. Also packing 8 FoW might be too much at times; imagine wanting to draw a combo piece NOW but you draw pact of negation. Nice card except not really. Since pact is only good when comboing.

Egosum, my concern with your list is the only draw card other than spiral is a 1 of meditate. The 2 cunning wish can fetch a meditate, but can rarely do it on the combo turn since it costs 6 mana. The same as spiral. As for 12 one mana cantrips, I believe my view has been made clear on the 12 cantrip lists. Cantrips will often slow you down a lot especially when you go turn 1 ponder into brainstorm, preordain, land. Nice cards and you shuffle and then you have no info about what you're going to draw next turn. Having 12 cantrips but no CoF's in spring tide seems so wrong too. You cut CoF for more one mana cantrips. How many 1 mana cantrips do you need again?

[Rico Suave]

High Tide with the Legacy card pool is not a combo-control deck. You need X engine pieces, Y untap effects, and Z card drawing on top of the necessary amount of land. Running less than the critical threshold on any of those numbers is going to result in a deck that doesn't work.

But guess what? This leaves very little room for anything else. We have room for maybe 6 control effects before we risk stalling. This isn't a combo-control deck at all. It's basically just a turn 4 combo deck.

The reason you see 10 or more counters in a list like Kai's is because he has Frantic Search. We do not. Frantic Search functions as both an untapper and a card drawer, meaning he fulfills the necessary Y untap and Z card draw effects but he only needs 3 cards to meet that criteria where we currently need 7 with our current card pool. That gives him, not surprisingly, 4 extra slots which can turn into counters (which is also fine because he can Frantic Search to filter those counters into action spells).

[egosum]

Metalworker: I know it relies on Time Spiral as much as itrelies on hihgh tide, but I think that the correct aproach to Time Spiral is doing it like this. Time Spiral is such a powerful card that the idea to resolve one of them will give you the chance of wining the game pretty consistently, so diluting the deck with an springTide engine (meditate and the kind...) will make our goal less likely. And this is why I think this is a different deck (and maybe should not be discussed in this thread). Actually i made some more changes to my deck. Basically adding 3x Turnabout maindeck, vy cutting those Snap + meditate.

Dark Ritual: I can't see CoF, Snap is 1st tutorable, 2nd anit hate card, so is verstile. CoF has cycling but drawing a blind card for 2 mana is too costy and doesn't provide storm. You can fo off turn 3 most of times doing second turn explore, or 3rd turn turnabout into Spiral tida (after high tide). I think that in a Time SPial list having 12 cantrips is amust since your idea is to use 'em to sculpt during first turns but they are also useful when going off, since the carfds you want to resolve are only more hight tides, more time spirals and possible a cunning wish into Stroke of genius.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[egosum]

I finally decided to start a new thread for the deck, since I think it is no longer Spring tide.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19565-Spiral-Tide&p=509910

Hope you agree with me so we can go on discussion over there.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[fdiv_bug]

A friend of mine had an interesting idea yesterday, and I wanted to toss it out here for some discussion. Keep 4 Reset in the board, and bring them in against opposing storm combo decks, notably TES/ANT, to morph into (sorta) Solidarity post-board. He tries to Tendrils you for a bunch, then you use his storm count to Brain Freeze him, with a Stroke of Genius or Words of Wisdom to force him to draw from an empty deck, with the Tendrils still on the stack.

Not sure what would be best to board out -- probably some of the sorcery-speed cantrips, so that we could still go off with Time Spiral during our turn if necessary -- or even if it's a good idea, but it did make me laugh a bit and then start thinking.

[ScatmanX]

A friend of mine had an interesting idea yesterday, and I wanted to toss it out here for some discussion. Keep 4 Reset in the board, and bring them in against opposing storm combo decks, notably TES/ANT, to morph into (sorta) Solidarity post-board. He tries to Tendrils you for a bunch, then you use his storm count to Brain Freeze him, with a Stroke of Genius or Words of Wisdom to force him to draw from an empty deck, with the Tendrils still on the stack.

Not sure what would be best to board out -- probably some of the sorcery-speed cantrips, so that we could still go off with Time Spiral during our turn if necessary -- or even if it's a good idea, but it did make me laugh a bit and then start thinking.
Tha plan seems pretty bad.
If you want to do that, use Leyline of Anticipation. That should be way funnier.

[fdiv_bug]

Tha plan seems pretty bad.
If you want to do that, use Leyline of Anticipation. That should be way funnier.

Oh, I never said it was a good plan, just an interesting one. :smile:

[ScatmanX]

My protec suit right now consist of 4 FoW, 4 Xantid Swarm, 3 Spell Snare (maybe should be Spell Pierces).
I played yesterday about 10 games against TES, and it is not a bad matchup. They simply cannot go off unprotected, and you can fetch FoW's by turn 2.
Several games I won just playing lands, and keeping 1 Time Spiral in hand. You can afford the card disadvantage of using FoW 2-3 times, if your spell turn 5-6 untaps all your lands, and gives you a bright new 7.
When you're in that situation, you should be able to win, or draw enough counters to not let him win.

[Grollub]

High Tide with the Legacy card pool is not a combo-control deck. You need X engine pieces, Y untap effects, and Z card drawing on top of the necessary amount of land. Running less than the critical threshold on any of those numbers is going to result in a deck that doesn't work.

But guess what? This leaves very little room for anything else. We have room for maybe 6 control effects before we risk stalling. This isn't a combo-control deck at all. It's basically just a turn 4 combo deck.

The reason you see 10 or more counters in a list like Kai's is because he has Frantic Search. We do not. Frantic Search functions as both an untapper and a card drawer, meaning he fulfills the necessary Y untap and Z card draw effects but he only needs 3 cards to meet that criteria where we currently need 7 with our current card pool. That gives him, not surprisingly, 4 extra slots which can turn into counters (which is also fine because he can Frantic Search to filter those counters into action spells).

I disagree. I find the deck to play very much like a combo-control list, but not control-combo - if that makes sense.

The sheer amount of search and draw/filtering Tide can (or in my opinion should) run makes the seemingly low amount of protection to quite a wall against opponents where it matter (other combo decks, and "real" control decks). More or less the Gro-a-tog scheme all over again, mucho draw/filtering makes a small amount of permission "big".

While it's true we don't have Frantic Search to make this even more extreme, we have been given new tools to somewhat make up for this loss: Brainstorm/fetchlands (exceptional in Explore builds) and Cunning Wish being the most obvious.
- We also don't need to run as execessive a package as the old Extended lists, as extended in that era was over 50% combo decks with the remainer being split between Fish/Countersliver and various red lists (red blasts galore).

For what it's worth I have a fairly solid kill turn balanced around turn 4 with a list running 8 protection cards, granted it's only a limited amount of testing I've done against real players as my friends only want to play against Tide so and so many times plus I simply can't bring myself to play such a boring deck online vs. some random. :-P

This flexiblity in design and play, is in my opinion the greatest strength of Tide. You can build/play it for speed (aim for turn 3 kills) or the more controling which adds about a turn to the kill. But let be honest with ourselves here, if we build for speed Tide will never reach what a ritual based build can do, be it TES, SI or Belcher.

[Rico Suave]

A deck like TES can run 8 protection too, but we still wouldn't think of it as a combo-control deck.

Being a combo deck, or a combo-control deck, is more a matter of how the deck performs in a game than anything else. I don't want to get into too much detail about that because frankly I don't care that much.

The problem facing High Tide is that it needs about 7 cards to begin the combo process. 4 Islands, High Tide, Untap effect, and Card draw. Time Spiral is a move in the right direction, because it means the deck only needs 6 cards to begin the combo process, but keep in mind this is also the min-max too. We'll often need multiple untap effects, or multiple sources of card draw in order to consistently go off.

Compare this to the 5-6 for Ad Nauseam, 5 for Show and Tell and Painter/Stone, 4 for Stifle/Nought and Thopter/Sword, etc. These are all combo outlets that could fulfill for a combo-control deck. So, why pick High Tide as the combo win?

This is the problem. High Tide is investing more cards into winning than other decks, which means we have less cards left over for other things.

In order for High Tide to be successful, I think it needs to solve a few big issues:
1) What it does without High Tide (or how to make sure the deck always has High Tide)
2) How to find/resolve/abuse Time Spiral better than just stuffing 4 copies into already existing decks
3) How to best deal with opposing disruption, namely a cheap and plentiful supply of counter-magic and/or discard

[Grollub]

A deck like TES can run 8 protection too, but we still wouldn't think of it as a combo-control deck.

Being a combo deck, or a combo-control deck, is more a matter of how the deck performs in a game than anything else. I don't want to get into too much detail about that because frankly I don't care that much.
Yes, lets move on. Kind of irrelevant at the moment to debate such details.


The problem facing High Tide is that it needs about 7 cards to begin the combo process. 4 Islands, High Tide, Untap effect, and Card draw. Time Spiral is a move in the right direction, because it means the deck only needs 6 cards to begin the combo process, but keep in mind this is also the min-max too. We'll often need multiple untap effects, or multiple sources of card draw in order to consistently go off.

Compare this to the 5-6 for Ad Nauseam, 5 for Show and Tell and Painter/Stone, 4 for Stifle/Nought and Thopter/Sword, etc. These are all combo outlets that could fulfill for a combo-control deck. So, why pick High Tide as the combo win?
Going to give my respond to Ad Nauseam a little below, so I'll not say anything here.
I don't think you can compare a spell based combo with a permanent based (everything but Ad Nauseam on that list), as they generally are much easier to disrupt (Krosan's Grip and <insert non-targeting removal>). But for the sake of argument; everything but Painter does not win in one turn, which forces them to interact with your opponent.

But yes, I agree Tide needs a very specific scenario to go off. Pox/Small Pox decks better not become popular (Heh, I'd love to see Legacy going Extended '99 - tho it's highly unlikely).


This is the problem. High Tide is investing more cards into winning than other decks, which means we have less cards left over for other things.
But it isn't, Ad Nauseam lists usually pack around 8 protection cards and the rest is focused on winning - just like Tide. The real difference between the two decks is, in my opinion, that resolving Ad Nauseam yields a much larger "I win" factor than resolving Time Spiral: however, this is both good and bad while you can win without the namesake card it's considerabily harder, Tide on the other hand can much easier recover/power through losing it's first Spiral.


In order for High Tide to be successful, I think it needs to solve a few big issues:
1) What it does without High Tide (or how to make sure the deck always has High Tide)
2) How to find/resolve/abuse Time Spiral better than just stuffing 4 copies into already existing decks
3) How to best deal with opposing disruption, namely a cheap and plentiful supply of counter-magic and/or discard
1) Never go below 4 Merchant Scroll and run at the least 6 cantrips. Finding the initial Tide have never been an issue for me. If we add Mind over Matter there's always the option of going Low Tide. ;-)
- I'm considering moving one Tide to the sideboard, both to allow Wish to find the initial Tide and to put a Tide back into action should (heaven forbid!) an opponent Extripate it.

2) To be honest, I think the best way to abuse Spiral is to not abuse Spiral - in the sense that you can go off without it. Tide lists after Spiral ban got alot tighter and could win without resolving the substitute - Yawg's Will.
(funny tidbit: Buddes Yawg/Dark Tide with -1 Impulse +1 Scroll, was the darn best Tide list I ever played in Extended)

3) I'm not terrible concerned about discard - Brainstorm, Counters and raw draw go a long way here. Fighting through your opponents Spiral fueled counterspells can be an issue however, and I must admit I'm having a little trouble at finding a strong route. Counters+Veil works "alright", but feels like it could be improved... Alot.

Adding to the list:
4) How to beat Counterbalance/permanent based disruption.

[Mattie]

I'm considering moving one Tide to the sideboard, both to allow Wish to find the initial Tide and to put a Tide back into action should (heaven forbid!) an opponent Extripate it.




one of the changes with M10 was making the RFG zone part of the game, in addition to renaming it. Since it's no longer outside the game, the Wishes no longer interact with it.

[Grollub]

I'm considering moving one Tide to the sideboard, both to allow Wish to find the initial Tide and to put a Tide back into action should (heaven forbid!) an opponent Extripate it.


one of the changes with M10 was making the RFG zone part of the game, in addition to renaming it. Since it's no longer outside the game, the Wishes no longer interact with it.

Hence the reason I'm considering moving a Tide to the sideboard...

[ScatmanX]

4 FoW, 3 Snare, 1 Wipe Away, and 2 Tutors, have been enough to deal with CB.
That's the MU I most played until now, and am having a positive MU.

[QUOTE=Grollub;510081]Hence the reason I'm considering moving a Tide to the sideboard...
Move on G2. No need to have only 3 in your deck game 1.

[HokusSchmokus]

Don't know if it was brought up before, I read this in the Spiral Tide thread:

Retraced Image

[overseer1234]

Don't know if it was brought up before, I read this in the Spiral Tide thread:

Retraced Image

The way I see it is that in spiral tide

3x retract image
4x time spiral

replaces spring tide's

3x snap
4x cloud of faeries
So IMHO this is what fundamentaly make's the difference between spring tide and spiral tide

[HokusSchmokus]

Still I'd find it rather useful to be able to just double Cloud or double island, thats just...sick

[overseer1234]

Sick is not really the word I think (I mean this deck kills on turn 3 without it...)

But I can see it beïng played though...

Pré combo it's a 1 mana rampant growth, and while comboïng it's like a ritual...

I admit it's king of cool.

[MGC_player]

What do people think of Blue Sun's Zenith for this deck?

[overseer1234]

Honestly I think it's just replace stroke of genius.

UUU isn't a problem for this deck, and the part where you shuffle it back (to scroll for it) make's it stricktly better than stroke of genius

[Dark Ritual]

The new zenith is the exact same as stroke of genius except it shuffles itself back in. I guess it's a budget alternative to stroke since stroke is annoyingly hard to find and over $5. While new rares like the zenith will be $1-$2 since rares are now dirt cheap due to mythics...

Retraced image is interesting. It is exactly like explore but without cantripping. And it allows you to stay mono U which is nice due to wasteland stuff.

[overseer1234]

How so a budget replacement for stroke?

Its strictly better since you can wish for it mid combo when you're out of gass, and when you finally freeze them, you only need a scroll to zenith them to death (stroking them does SOUND better though...)

And also: I'm not sure if it's going to be cheaper than stroke...

[mrjumbo03]

It is gonna be cheaper because it is released in a new set... there will be loads of this floating around in the market in the coming months... stroke of genius on the other hand appeared in a set more than 10 years ago... so there will be less out there circulating...

[overseer1234]

It is gonna be cheaper because it is released in a new set... there will be loads of this floating around in the market in the coming months... stroke of genius on the other hand appeared in a set more than 10 years ago... so there will be less out there circulating...

This is true as long as it doesnt see play in standard.

Otherwise you are completely right

Annayway, maybe I'll try 1 in the main deck and keep the stroke sideboard as a wish target.

[whiteshepherdman]

Even with the unbanning of time spiral i still can't figure out how that will help us beat counterbalance decks

[GoldenCid]

Sorry but the noob quetion but...why should i run this instead of instant speed solidarity??

[Rune]

Faster goldfish, infintely better cantrips, Merchant Scroll, Time Spiral (untap + draw in one card = you can go off with almost nothing) and lastly, and most importantly, you beat Merfolk instead of dying horribly to them.

Even though Spiral/Spring Tide has a bunch of sorceries, it will still never lose to non-Counterbalance control (just like Solidarity won't). With Spiral Tide you are also able to use Turnabout very aggressively on your opponent's lands in his upkeep. This play is basically a must-counter for control decks, as it turns off all their non-FoW protection and leaves them very vulnerable when you get to untap.

Solidarity is better against TES/ANT than S. Tide before SB. Solidarity is also slightly better against Supreme Blue than S. Tide, but not to any significant degree (you still lose if your opponent isn't stupid). Against everything else, I think S. Tide is definitely better than, or equal to, Solidarity. Being able to combo off on top of someone's Brainstorm or lethal Tendrils of Agony is very cute, but if you ask me, it's not worth playing cards that are significantly worse than the sorcery counterparts just you can be able to do that.

[Zirath]

Time Spiral and the cantrips are the only things that puts Spring Tide above Solidarity.

[overseer1234]

The only downpart is that Spring Tide and Spiral Tide both lose horribly against Solidarity since they can just piggy-back on your combo and simply take over once you try to kill them with stroke/zenith...

[Silent Requiem]

This is a copy of a post I made in the Solidarity thread.


I've just finished some serious play testing of a preliminary Snap Tide build (goldfishing only; the build is nowhere near ready for real play), and I have some comments. First, though, the list:

Lands:

10 Islands
8 Fetchland

Instants:

4 High Tide
4 Snap
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

Sorceries:

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain

Creatures:

4 Snapcaster
4 Cloud of Faeries

To begin with, once you get used to the deck, it goes off on turn 3 like clockwork (absent disruption, of course). You are looking for four cards: High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap & Intuition. If you have those cards you can win on turn three. Outside of pilot error & disruption, the combo is completely fizzle-proof; you WILL win.

The best part (and the reason that I'm posting in the Solidarity thread rather than Spring Tide) is that the combo is still instant speed! Only your initial dig is sorcery speed, and you don't need it once the combo is assembled.

So you can still delay going off if you want to, although there is generally no advantage in doing so. And unlike current builds, there is no "dead space" at the beginning of their turn; go ahead and deck them in their upkeep if you feel like it.

Let's talk specifics, though. How can this build be improved?

Card Choices:

Lands - 18 lands seems about right; I'm rarely land flooded, and I sometimes have trouble making my third land drop off a bad hand. This doesn't stop me going off, you understand, as long as I can find that third land while I combo off. I might even up the number of fetches to improve Brainstorm, but I seem to always have a fetch when I needed it, so perhaps the balance is right.

High Tide/Snapcaster/Snap/Intuition - these make the deck work, and finding them is critical. I wouldn't want to play less than four of each.

Cloud of Faeries - If you have managed to assemble the combo, you never play this card. However, if you are short a card you can use it in a "traditional" free-style combo, albeit on your own turn. However, you can also drop them on turn two without disrupting your dig, which can help buy you some time. Probably worth keeping as an all around solid backup plan.

Meditate - This can almost certainly go. I never cast it, because it is just too slow. I could see it having some purpose in the sideboard to fight discard, but Visions of Beyond is probably better if we are facing massive discard or control. It could be replaced by either more dig or disruption.

Preordain - Yes, it's better than Ponder here. You are digging for specific cards, and you can't afford dead cards on top of your library when you do that. You can only crack one relevant fetch if you go off on turn three, and Brainstorm needs that one.

Cunning Wish - I never find myself wanting Cunning Wish, but we do need an answer to Emrakul in the main, so it probably needs to stay.

That's my initial finding, and I have to say that I'm more excited about the build than I thought I would be; despite running sorceries, the combo is still instant speed.

Since then, I've decided not to continue developing the build, as I prefer combo-control to pure combo. I thought I'd post it here, though, as I had not seen any Spring Tide players messing about with new cards.

I genuinely feel that this build is distinct from either Solidarity or Spiral Tide. It's a turn faster, and does not fizzle (disruption aside) if you can assemble the four main combo cards. Yet the combo is still at instant speed. You can race Spiral Tide and go off on Solidarity's turn, where they are less able to respond.

If anyone is interested in continuing this development, I'd be looking at making the deck more resilient to disruption, as it's already plenty fast and plenty consistent. Since Silence effects protect you from pretty much everything Snap can't handle (creature removal, faster combo, counters) splashing white might be worth looking at.

[GGoober]

I was thinking the green splash might be more valuable. It offers:


1) Hunting Pack (with the ability to generate a lot of storm and mana with just 3 lands, this is a blowout for control/aggro without the risk of passing turns with Meditates since Snap/Snapcaster/Intuition is the primarily combo path rather than chaining Meditates)

2) Xantid Swarm. Sure the build right now is weak to creature removal, but this means 1 less removal on Snapcaster, and they better have the removal or lose to Swarm. In fact, I think swarm makes it hard for opponents to side out removal, which is better for us as long as we are prepared for removal on the stack i.e. board in flusterstorm

3) Grips for Counterbalance if it ever becomes a problem. Carpet of Flower, City of Solitude are all possible options. However, I'm not sure if splashing green is worth the timewalk if they have a wasteland. Tide decks cannot afford to lose land drop (it's a loss of both mana generation, a land drop and the dependency of the lands to go off).

I was playing a UW Solidarity list 2-3 years ago. It had 4 Chants and Decree of Justice, but often more I think it was win-more even if Chant is amazing. Not sure if green replacing Chants with Swarm is a better alternative. In addition, we can run Tangle as mentioned by Valcrix or even shit like Moment's Peace. Green seems to be the best splash color IMO.

Still tweaking lists. I'm not sure if the 4 CoF is better than 4 Candelabra for now. CoF makes the deck especially vulnerable to creature removal. I like diversifying the untappers to some extent.

[ScatmanX]

@Metalwalker: Green also offers Autumn's Veil if you like Chant more than Xantid.

I'm liking a Spiral Tide build that wun 2 Snapercast, 2 Cloud of Faeries, 2 Snap, 2 Turnabouts as unttapers, and they've been working quite well (along with 4 Time Spirals). The deck felt consisten enough to combo without Time Spiral even, but I don't have the balls to replace them already. Do you guys think this is the correct move?
Am going to try Silent's list, and see how it goes.

Edit: Hm, looks like upping the Snap, Snapcaster and put an Intuition on my list would do wonders too. Sweet.

[Silent Requiem]

The trouble with a half and half build is that you don't get the full advantages of the Intuition/Snap/Snapcaster build. This powerful interaction is the reason to play Snap Tide.

Your goal is to go into turn 3 with 3 land and High Tide, Intuition, Snapcaster and Snap.

High Tide > Snapcaster (on Tide) > Snap > 3 storm, 2 lands untapped
High Tide (flashback) > Snapcaster (on Snap) > Snap > 6 storm, 2 lands untapped
Intuition (for 3 Snap) > Snap (on any opponent's creature) > 8 storm, 2 land untapped, 1 mana floating
Snapcaster (Snap) > Snap > Snapcaster (Snap) > Snap > 12 storm, 2 lands untapped, 5 mana floating
Snapcaster (Snap) > Snap > Snapcaster (Intuition) > 15 storm, 2 lands untapped, 2 mana floating
Intuition (for Merchant Scroll) > Scroll > Brain Freeze > 18 storm, all land tapped, 1 mana floating

(If going off at instant speed that last Intuition can be for 2 Snapcaster & Brain Freeze, which does the same thing)

It's tight, but completely draw independent, which means it offers a consistency (as well as speed) that Time Spiral builds lack. However, the mechanics require certain minimum numbers of various cards (such as Snap) to work.

Obviously, the combo becomes more flexible with more lands in play and more cards in hand.

[GGoober]

I was going to post the list in Solidarity but realized that the core of the deck really drifts from the intent of playing as the combo-control deck. The list below still heavily focuses on being instant-based, but not with the purpose of playing the combo-control role, but utilizing the power of being heavily instant-based to win stack wars on your own turn.

This list cannot go off on the opponent's turn. I was working on a hybrid list with Resets/Candles that can potentially go off on either your turn or the opponent but it wasn't focused in its kill. I'll post the list below and run through some of the main thoughts since not everyone is thinking too much about Tide decks outside of Classic Solidarity or Spiral Tide.

18 Lands:
4 Strand
3 Delta
10 Island
1 Tropical Island

8 Cantrip:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

8 Tutors:
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Intuition
1 Cunning Wish

9 Untappers:
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Snap
1 Turnabout

9 Combo:
4 High Tide
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Brainfreeze

8 Permission:
1 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
2 Repeal
1 Flusterstorm

15 SB: (still in progress but listing a rough list)
1 Turnabout
1 Pact of Negation/Krosan Grip/Echoing Truth etc
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hunting Pack
1 Wipe Away
1 Repeal
1 Rebuild
1 Hibernation
2 Spell Pierce (flex slots)


The primary kill condition is assembling High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap with 3 lands. You will cantrip/Scroll or draw into Intuition for the kill. Silent Requiem and other Solidarity posts have outlined how to generate lethal storm with just these cards in hand, being draw independent and having no chance to fizzle outside of countermagic.

Brief notes on card selection:
18 lands to ensure that you hit 3 land drop, together with the 8 cantrips. I would love to play 10-12 cantrips including Preordain but the list is tight. One can possibly drop Repeal/Flusterstorm in the MD to make room for more cantrips depending on the meta but I'm just posting a rough MD that is built to have average outs to any matchup game 1.

You have 8 Tutors: winning primarily with Intuition. 4 Scroll finds High Tide/Intuition. Cunning Wish acts like the 4th Tutor that can be scrolled/Intuitioned for outs in game 1, or provide the Hunting Pack Kill in the SB against troublesome decks.

The untapper suite consists of 4 Snap (no need to talk about that here), 1 Turnabout which acts as a scrollable Reset in the combo-phase to generate larger amounts of mana if the game goes into the long-game. It is also tutorable as a fog or time walk or EOT Turnabouting a control player's land before going off safely next turn. Scroll helps this tremendously and these 5 untappers cannot be cut. 4 Candelabra of Tawnos essentially functions as Turnabout. I did some trivial maths for Candles and Turnabout. As long as you're combo'ing at 3 or less lands, Candles is equal or more mana efficient than turnabout. Lastly, I need to mention the synergy of Candelabra with Repeal, which I will get onto in the section below:

Your 8 permission includes: 4 Force, 1 Pact of Negation (scrollable) which is amazing with Snapcaster during the combo phase, 2 Repeals and 1 Flusterstorm. The Repeal/Flusterstorm configuration can be adjusted depending whether your meta is more combo/aggro-hate-bear heavy. The repeals however do something beyond just bouncing hate (Chalice/Canonist/Mindcensor) or buying a turn. Repeals are great pre-combo phase against aggro to buy some turns, and they are no longer become a dead draw during post-combo phase because you can bounce Snapcasters and continue to generate storm and tutoring. I recently realized that on top of all these, Repeal also acts as a 'reset-button' for Candelabras, allowing the deck to re-use its Candle much like how Snapcaster would re-use Resets in Solidarity lists playing Snapcasters. All in all, I feel that 2 Repeals MD offer everything for the deck to gain, and nothing to lose unless your meta is heavily combo.

You play 4 High Tide, 4 Snapcaster and 1 Brain Freeze MD for the kill. If your opponents have outs, you can opt to end the tutor-chain with Cunning Wish into Hunting Pack. The list is devoid of Meditates, which allows for the Hunting Pact kill to be consistent. Snapcaster-build for this list does not intend to play the long game, and generate card advantage with Meditate. It's essentially using the 8 cantrips and 4 Scrolls to find Tide/Snapcaster/Scroll/permission and go off ASAP.

I think 2-land kills are viable as well, but will involve double high Tides in hands and Snap/Snapcaster + intuition in hand, rare but do-able :P

Why would you play this over Spiral Tide? considering the similarities except that you play the Snap/Snapcaster package instead of Time Spiral? In general, I would say Spiral Tide is the stronger and more consistent deck (it can randomnly win with just 2 cards: High Tide and Time Spiral). This list is more fragile to GY hate or targeted removal on Snapcaster, but all in all, this list is more heavily instant-based, and is faster, and it does NOT fizzle if you are combo-gold-fishing (Spiral/ANT draws/Meditate-chains can still result in fizzle despite being statistically improbable). I'm not sure whether it's worth it, but the deck is under testing phase. I'll report on some results tomorrow :)

(I don't own my 2nd to 4th Candles and 4 Korean Snapcaster so I won't be able to play this deck for real but I'll just playtest it :P)