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Ray D 3
03-19-2005, 12:12 AM
There is a thread for this deck on MTGS here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=19243).

Intro:

This deck uses the basic concepts of Solidarity with one rather large difference: The deck is not instant speed. Although this means that the deck loses the amazing untapping power of Reset, it gains a far greater card pool, which in turn supplies the deck with more consistency, speed, and resiliency (A full comparison with Solidarity will be made later). The deck now goldfishes an amazingly consistent turn 3-4 win.

For those who don't know, the deck works by generating ridiculous amounts of mana through the use of High Tide(s) and multiple untap effects, drawing insane amounts of cards, and casting a huge Stroke of Genius and/or Brain Freeze for the kill.

My current list looks like this:

Main Deck:
4x Force of Will

3x Meditate
4x Ideas Unbound

4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Turnabout

4x High Tide

3x Cunning Wish
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Brainstorm

3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
10x Islands

Sideboard:
3x Defense Grid
3x Disrupt
2x Brain Freeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Misdirection
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth

*SB slots can be metagamed pretty easily.


Card by Card Analysis:

Main Deck:

Force of Will-- Protection is a must!

Ideas Unbound-- Draw 3 for 2. In tight spots, it even makes a decent set-up card.

Meditate-- Draw 4 for 3. In the right situation, it even makes a great set-up card.

Cloud of Faeries-- Untap effect that cycles, works wonders with snap, and itís part of the deckís infinite combo (see Capsize).

Snap-- With Cloud of Faeries, it untaps lots and lots of lands while making a nice storm count. On its own, if your opponent has a creature, it still works as a decent mana generator. On top of all that, it functions as main deck bounce for annoying creatures like True Believer and Meddling Mage. Of course, this comes at the cost of allowing your opponent's creature removal to disrupt you. However, this issue has shown itself to be rather trivial in practice.

Turnabout-- Huge untap effect, fog, and semi-Orimís Chant all at the same time. On a side note, this version even lets you cast it end of turn to tap out your opponent and untap before attempting to go off.

High Tide-- Kind of needed.

Cunning Wish-- Any combo piece, win condition, or bounce effect you could possibly need.

Merchant Scroll-- Demonic Tutor

Sleight of Hand-- This is one amazing little card. It digs 2 cards deep for a single blue mana, and is excellent at finding land.

Serum Visions-- These really help the deck to run on such a light mana base. Digging 4 cards for your next land drop at 1 mana is beautiful, and it works very well with other draw cards while going off.

Brainstorm-- Grab what you need, throw back what you donít, add in one of 10 shuffle effects, and youíve got one amazing card quality engine.

Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand-- Drawing land while going off sucks, and shuffling after a brainstorm is rather good. 6/10 split seems to work best.

Island-- Kinda need these ; )


Sideboard:

Defense Grid-- Gives some line of defense against Solidarity and helps against Aggro-Control decks as well as Control decks packing hate.

Disrupt-- Helps out against black discard, LD, and a few other things.

Brain Freeze/Stroke of Genius/Meditate/Turnabout/Mystical Tutor -- Wishable combo pieces. 2 Freezes so one can be sided in against Solidarity. Mystical Tutor is for those games when you just can't seem to find a High Tide (Cast on Upkeep, Draw it, Win).

Misdirection-- Wishable Force of Will, and a great way to reverse cards like Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole.

Rebuild/Evacuation/Hibernation--to quote Carlos El Salvador, ďBounce the bad stuff back.Ē These would be metagame slots. I doubt you will need them though.

Capsize-- Returns anything and has buyback. It also Generates infinite mana with Cloud of Faeries after 4 High Tides (This happens a lot more often than one would think. It is rare that, when going off, the deck can't go infinite.).

Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor-- Your basic bounce. Both also do fun things with Faeries. For the time being; play CoV if you wish, but space is tight.



Cards Not Included:

Sapphire Medallion-- It seems like a logical solution to lessen the deckís reliance on High Tide, but it has proven itself to be unnecessary in testing, and actually slows down the deck, as casting it prevents early hand refinement. Not to mention it doesnít do anything for a lot of cards in the deck, and would take the slots of other, more needed, cards.

Bosium Strip-- At first this card seemed to work amazingly in this deck, but all it really did was make the deck better at overkill. It did give the deck a way to keep comboing out without giving your opponent cards as well (Diminishing Returns), but it just had too many draw backs. The biggest problem with the card was the disruptability it created in the deck; artifact removal, stifle, baiting a Force of Will, graveyard hate, etc. inhibited your ability to go off. The second major problem with it was that by itself, it couldn't draw cards, so you had to have it AND a big draw spell or several smaller ones. The third problem was that it was slow; Six mana was often times just too much in the early stages of going off (even divided over 2 turns).

Future Sight-- This one gave me mixed results as well. In some cases it just allowed me to go ballistic and play my entire deck off of it, but sometimes I had to rely on it as my only big draw spell and it didn't pull through. It was also a very clunky draw spell at 5 mana, and was once again vulnerable to removal.

Impulse-- This card is very good at doing what it does; however, its mana cost has shown itself to be unexpectedly prohibitive to this deck. One of the biggest problems with the card is that unlike the other small draw cards in the deck, it won't permit you to keep an otherwise good 1 land opening hand (which will show up fairly often). It also decreased the deck's set up speed by preventing the other 1 mana costing hand refinement spells from being played. The last issue is that it breaks the golden rule of storm based combo decks '1 mana, 1 card' (The extra mana is more important in this deck than looking a little deeper.).

Sensei's Divining Top-- This isn't in the deck for the exact same reasons as Impulse; it is great at what it does, but is just too mana intensive. It is only really good when you have lots and lots of mana and are well into going off. In the early turns, it really stunts your hand development by eating your mana. In short, the redundancy of cheap hand refinement makes the top completely unnecessary.

Opt-- Opt is a rather weak card all around. The fact that it is instant speed is nice, but the fact that it will often dig only one card deep, and it's reliance on prediction make it a sub-optimal card choice for this deck. The deck is already running 12 strong one costing hand refinement spells and there is nothing in the deck worth cutting to fit these in; therefore, it doesn't make the cut.

Trade Secrets-- Against aggro, and non-instant speed combo, it will draw you 4 cards for 3 mana, thus making it an untutorable Meditate that can on occasion give your opponent burn cards, REB's, etc. Against control, if you cast this, they draw into every counter they have and you draw every threat you have (A good control player can usually fizzle you under these conditions.), or you gain a mere 1 card advantage. Against instant speed combo, they just go off in response. The deck has more than enough draw power as is, and the drawbacks more than cancel out the benefits.

Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast-- This deck is fast enough to race even the fastest of red decks on a consistent basis. I am aware that the 8 blast plan is threatening to this deck, but in all honesty, these really donít help much as they force you to remove combo pieces, and the deck has other, more important, concerns than a few blasts. Also note that both Disrupt and Grid would be better options for this.

Palinchron-- Palinchron isn't in the deck for the same reason Brain Freeze isn't in the maindeck. It is useless until you've basically already won. If you have enough mana to get the Palinchron going, you don't need it. Also, the Capsize combo works a lot better as you can wish for it when needed (note that the deck's main win conditions are the draw X spells). Palinchron will be dead if he is in your hand when you need early combo pieces.

Intuition/AK-- In short, it is slow, takes up too many slots, and can't do anything the deck can't already do.

Twincast-- Situational as hell. It works optimally with too few cards in the deck, and forces you into large mana investments, which can be fatal. Also, and perhaps worst of all, it can not diversify your hand, so it will be functioning as an extra combo piece that you DON'T need a good portion of the time. Despite being relatively useful and doubling as a counter, it just doesn't cut it. Try it out and see for yourself.



Playing the deck:


Why should I play this deck?:
We all know the qualifications of Solidarity as a deck to beat at this point, so the question you should all be asking is "Why should I play this over traditional Solidarity?" I will list the pros and cons of this deck in comparison to Solidarity:


Pros:

*It goldfishes faster than Solidarity.
*It fizzles less than Solidarity.
*Better set-up cards can make bad hands good, increase your ability to fight through disruption, and find answers.
*Stronger draw power makes disruption less of a liability.
*More untap effects makes disruption less of a liability.
*Defense Grid is amazing.
*You can draw into your last land drop while going off.
*You can go off with as few as 2 lands in play.
*You don't give your opponent a chance to untap, draw, and cast those few extra spells while you're going off.
*Popular hate aimed at Solidarity is less of an issue.
*Turnabout/Meditate/bounce can be cast at end of turn in order to go off with a full untap and before you would have to discard from meditate.
*Main deck removal in the form of Snap.
*Going infinite allows you to beat a deck of any size.
*The fact that it can spend great lengths of time to go off can cause the opponent to scoop without knowing if you might fizzle in order to avoid having you drain the clock and win with a 1-0-0 record.


Cons:

*Less instants means less control of the stack (It still has a lot of instants, just not as many).
*The deck Needs to resolve a High Tide to win.
*The deck has difficulty in the Solidarity mirror.
*Weaker untap.
*Since you go off on your turn, you usually canít use your opponents spells to up the storm count.
*You have to predict when your opponent can kill you/drop hate.




Mulligans:
Perhaps the most important decision you will make with this deck is the decision of whether or not to mull. Of course, this is dependant to a certain extent on the match-up (For example, if you fear Stifle, you obviously don't keep a 1 land hand with a fetchland), but I would like to provide some guidelines for mulliganing. I will list the number of lands in the opening hands, list the odds (rounded to the nearest 100th of a percent) of getting such a hand starting with a 7 card hand and progressing to a 0 card hand, and I will list some basic guidelines to keeping the hand.

0: 9.92%->14.10%->19.88%->27.84%->38.70%->53.45%->73.33%->100%
Throw it out for obvious reasons.

1: 29.24%->34.71%->39.77%->43.46%->44.23%->39.77%->26.67%->0%
Keep only if your hand is particularly strong otherwise and contains at least two cheap (1 mana) hand refinement spells (The odds of a 1 land hand meeting the above requirements are listed below.).
29.26%->25.65%->20.90%->15.27%->9.26%->0%->0%->0%

2: 33.74%->32.54%->29.10%->23.28%->15.43%->6.78%->0%->0%
Pretty ideal; just make sure you have something to work with.

3: 19.68%->14.81%->9.70%->5.05%->1.64%->0%->0%->0%
Once again, pretty ideal; just make sure you have something to work with.

4: 6.24%->3.44%->2.93%->2.24%->0%->0%->0%->0%
If the business spells in your hand are diverse and/or flexible, you should keep it. Otherwise, toss it.

5: 1.07%->0.38%->0.08%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%
Usually, this gets thrown back.

6: 0.09%->0.02%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%
Out it goes, and shuffle better.

7: 0.00%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%
...yeah...

Drawing a Brainstorm and a shuffle effect can make a lot of hands almost auto-keepers. The odds of seeing Brainstorm and a shuffle effect in an opening hand are as follows.
29.62%->23.99%->18.40%->13.02%->8.12%->4.00%->0%->0%


You should be keeping hands roughly according to the following percents:
70%->60%->45%->65%->60%->45%->100%

For those of you who don't like subtraction, you should be throwing hands back roughly according to the following percents:
30%->40%->55%->35%->40%->55%->0%



Goldfishing:

Due to the nature of how this deck plays (It does not seek to go off ASAP, but rather as late as it possibly can in order to maximize it's odds), I will list the trials by the turn I was aiming to win on, and whether I was playing or drawing.

Playing:

5th Turn: 48/50 96% success rate
4th Turn: 44/50 88% success rate
3rd Turn: 35/50 70% success rate
2nd Turn: 3/50 6% success rate

Drawing:

4th Turn: 45/50 90% success rate
3rd Turn: 39/50 78% success rate
2nd Turn: 6/50 12% success rate




Match-ups:
(These will be quick and basic...Except Solidarity >_<)

Solidarity-- I'm going to have to be a little more detailed for this one:

They have more control over the stack, the ability to go off without casting High Tide, and maindeck Brain Freezes, so this will be a rough game, but you have some tricks up your sleeve as well.

If you get a great goldfishing hand either game and If you are going first, it is often a good idea to attempt to go off turn 3 (Just don't do anything fancy. Don't play extra tides if you don't have to, and don't play a draw spell with a lethal storm count if you can avoid it. Just grab your wish/freeze and win), as they will have one hell of a time going off with only 2 lands in play; Understand that there is some risk in this plan, and that it takes experience to pull off, but it can definitely pay off if used correctly.

If this doesn't happen, use the following strategy:

Scroll/Wish up Counters and/or Freezes to slow them down. After you have found these answers, the game becomes a race to the perfect hand.

During this race it is a good idea to start probing your opponent with eot Turnabouts, as if you can resolve one, you can set up an uninterrupted win on your turn (However, if you need the instant speed untap power, hold onto it).

Somewhere during this stalemate, it can be a good idea to cast a Cloud of Faeries for 2 reasons: 1) it makes your snaps into instant speed untap power. 2) It functions as pressure on your opponent which can push your opponent into attempting a win and walk into a Brain Freeze or a forced fizzle. I would only attempt this if you have an 8 card hand, and sufficient land to defend yourself if they attempt to go off in response.

Also, keep in mind, that during the Early turns, it is not a bad idea to try to resolve a Meditate on your opponents turn in order to put you at an advantage in the race to a perfect hand. Later on, its not a good idea, as your opponent can actually go off on their turn, and you usually want to hold on to Meditate anyway, since it is part of that "perfect" hand.

The match-up is both draw and skill based, and is generally in their favor. Just try to out think them and hope to draw the right cards to overpower them.

Game 2+3 you get Defense Grid as well. Should you get one early, you should be able to push through a quick win. Should you get it later, it will handicap them significantly none-the-less.

Disrupt may be a good option to hinder their early development, but it requires testing.

Fast Combo (X Land Belcher, Nausea, Iggy PoP, etc.)-- These match-ups seems like they should suck for you, but are actually pretty even. This is where you take advantage of your 3rd turn win percentage. The odds of goldfishing them are usually in your favor if you can go off turn 3. Even if you can't go off turn 3, you have 4 Force of Wills and 4 ways to tutor for one, and since these decks tend to rely on 1-2 crucial spells. Disrupts are often helpful here as well games 2 and 3. Keep a look out for cards that help you as well (Helm), but if you choose not to counter them, make absolutely sure you can win next turn, and if they try to win that turn you can stop them.

Slower Combo (Solitaire, etc.)-- Just goldfish them; plain and simple. Keep in mind you have Force to buy you that last turn.

Control (Landstill/BBS/WUBS/Hulk/etc.)-- Control has never been a bad match-up for Solidarity, and it is even better for this version. The draw, untap, and tutor power of this deck makes it extremely hard for them to stop you. They just canít stop everything, and they usually wonít have a fast enough clock to take you down before you wear them out of counters. It may seem like the deckís reliance on High Tide would make it easy for the control player to stop you, but if they are trying to counter the High Tides, they canít counter the draw. If they donít counter the draw, you just overpower them. Also, keep in mind that an end of turn Turnabout takes out a great deal of their counter power, and that catching them off-guard with a fast win while they are tapped out is often quite successful. Games 2-3 depends on what their sideboard looks like, as enough hate can turn the odds in their favor, but you should still maintain at least a decent chance of coming out on top. Bring in Grids to protect High Tides and limit/completely stop the number of counters they can play after the Tide resolves.

Fast Aggro (Vial Goblins, Sligh, Burn, etc.)-- These match-ups are generally easy game 1. You can goldfish them with relative ease. Games 2 and 3 depend on how much hate they have. However, this hate usually slows them down as well, and you should have answers. Beware of cards that can disrupt you in the maindeck though (Fanatic, Incinerator, etc.).

Slow Aggro (Angel Stompy, Survival Advantage, etc.)--Game 1 should be a piece of cake. Games 2 and 3 depend on how much hate they have. However, you will likely only ever need to answer 1-2 of these spells. Also, it is fairly likely that you can just goldfish them before it ever becomes a factor.

Blue based Aggro-Control (Threshold, Madness, etc.)-- These match-ups are generally in your favor. They can disrupt you and beat you down, but their disruption will be weaker than that of a conventional control deck, and their clock slower than pure aggro, so it won't be as bad as it seems. Build up the best hand you can (read: counter back-up, multiple draw/untap effects) and try to overwhelm them the turn before they kill you. Games 2 and 3 should be pretty much more of the same, except for those lovely Defense Grids which really shine against many of these decks. The only real problems in these match-ups are cards like Meddling Mage which can shut you down, but bouncing them shouldn't be too difficult (Just watch the time they buy!).

Resource Denial Aggro-Control (Deadguy, Sui-Black, Pox, Stax, etc.)-- These will suck. Try to go off as soon as there is an opening. Disrupt and Misdirection are often quite good here though.

ATS-- They have no real clock and the counters they have are few and weak. This match-up should be fairly easy. Just watch out games 2 and 3 for troublesome enchantments.

Welder Survival-- Just try to goldfish them and try to keep Survival/Welder off the board if you can. It isnít a bad match, but itís no cakewalk either. They can get the nuts and just go crazy on you, so treat this match as you would a fast aggro deck.



Conclusion:

I honestly feel this deck is superior to Solidarity, simply because it doesnít lose match-ups that it shouldnít due to fizzling, or just drawing a hand that is too slow. It also has a better match-up than Solidarity did against many of itís problem decks like aggro control and other combo decks (It is consistently faster than Solidarity, has more Ďmust counterí spells, and itís tutors allow it to adapt better to disruption.). Anyway, I have run my mouth off for long enough. Discuss!

P.S. I have updated this many times, so some of the early posts may refer to a list that no longer exists.

Slay
03-19-2005, 10:37 AM
Why no Palinchron? It's an auto-win card if it gets going, and not fizzling out I consider a very awesome thing. Plus, who doesn't like a Brainfreeze for a trillion?

I feel it deserves a sideboard slot, at least.
-Slay

Ray D 3
03-19-2005, 01:14 PM
The same reason Brain Freeze isn't in the maindeck. It is useless untill you've already won. If you have enough mana to get the palinchron going, you don't need it. Also, the capsize combo works alot better as you can wish for it when needed (note that the deck's main win conditions are the draw X spells). Palinchron will be dead FAR too often when you need useful cards. If you have enough mana to get a Palinchron going, you shouldn't be fizzling, so wouldn't you rather have a draw spell in its place, or a more cost efficient untap effect, or even a way to dig for one of the above 2?

I added this into the cards not included section.

On one last note, a trillion is too low, go with scientific notation (9.99X10^99999999999999999999999999999999). If they require you to say the number, the best I can do is 999 googol, 999 decillion, 999 nonillion, 999 octillion, 999 septillion, 999 sextillion, 999 quintillion, 999 quadrillion, 999 trillion, 999 billion, 999 million, 999 thousand, 999 (That's three 9's followed by sixty 0's followed by thirty-nine 9's), so if anyone has a bigger number (and/or a better deck name) PM it to me or just throw it into an otherwise productive post like I just did :p

Note: I've recently been made aware of a new number...the Googloplex, or 10^(10x10^100).

B is for Big Job
03-19-2005, 03:54 PM
So is there any reason why this deck is any better compared to solidarity? Adding white into it doesnt make it better becuase if you come across a single wasteland, you get boned. Also, why no glaciers? they basically make you ramp into the win. Running only 2 maindeck wins and 2 in the board is kinda jank considering that if youre going against BBS, WBBS, Landstill, or any other type of blue control, you lose.

Also, going off at instant speed is what makes solidarity good, sorceries dont cut it in Legacy.

Ray D 3
03-19-2005, 05:31 PM
Now, the question everyone should be asking is ďWhy should I play this over traditional Solidarity?Ē I will list the reasons why and why not:

Why:

*It goldfishes faster than Solidarity.
*It does not fizzle as much as Solidarity.
*Itís greater ability to tutor prevents you from ending up with all untap effects or all draw effects.
*It's greater ability to tutor gives you the ability to fight through disruption.
*Itís greater ability to tutor allows the deck to find answers (bounce spells, Force of Wills, etc.) with greater ease.
*Itís stronger draw power makes disruption less of a liability.
*Itís greater amount of untap effects makes disruption less of a liability.
*It permits you to keep one land hands providing you have enough hand refinement spells.
*If you donít make the last land drop on the turn you start to go off, you can play it when you draw it.
*It doesnít give your opponent a chance to untap, draw, and cast those few extra spells while you're going off.
*It wonít lose to random Stifles/Gaeaís Blessings.
*It doesnít have cards that remain useless until you go off (Brain Freeze).
*It allows you to cast your bounce spells at end of turn and go off with a full untap.
*It has main deck removal in the form of Snap.
*This deck can beat any sized deck by going infinite.

Why Not:

*Less instants means less control of the stack (It still has a lot of instants, just not as many).
*The deck Needs to resolve a High Tide to win.
*The deck has greater difficulty in the Solidarity match-up.
*The deck loses access to Reset.
*Snap creates a liability to creature and artifact removal.
*The deck is vulnerable to Misdirection.
*Since you go off on your turn, you usually canít use your opponents spells to up the storm count.
*You have to predict when your opponent can kill you.
*It takes longer to win with, so you may end up with a few draws on your record.
...
Tundra-- With only 1 in the deck, wasteland is a liability around 8% of the time within the first 4 land drops. (2 makes the risk go up to more than double that.)
...
Landstill/BBS/WUBS/Hulk, etc.-- Control has never been a bad match-up for Solidarity, and it is even better for this version (Just watch out for Misdirection.). The draw, untap, and tutor power of this deck makes it extremely hard for them to stop you. They just canít stop everything, and they usually wonít have a fast enough clock to take you down before you wear them out of counters. It may seem like the deckís reliance on High Tide would make it easy for the control player to stop you, but if they are trying to counter the High Tides, they canít counter the draw. If they donít counter the draw, you just overpower them. Also, keep in mind that end of turn Turnabout leaves only Force of Will, and the rather frightening Misdirection. Game 2, they get some nice stuff, but for the most part, it wonít be too bad (Even if they bring in things like Chalice of the Void, you should still do ok.). Also, you get FoW number 5 and Chant (as a 2 of) if you don't expect Wasteland.

You do realize the chants are in the board, and I specified not to bring them in against a deck packing wasteland (wish for it if you need it). They were intended for combo not control; the additional help they provide in the control match-up is just a bonus.

Glaciers? I only run 3 cards that untap all lands maindeck, there are only 8 islands in the deck, and cutting fetch lands for islands takes away the ability to get white mana when you need it, which means you lose more often to fast combo and other Solidarity decks. Also, cutting land for them is out of the question, and cutting spells for them would be terrible.
(Added to the cards not included section)

As far as win conditions go, you should never need more win conditions than you have so long as you don't go recklessly wasting them. Against aggro and combo that is fairly obvious. Against control, if you've already gone off enough to win, it means they ran out of countermagic a long time ago, unless they were foolish enough to save whatever they have for your win conditions, at which point they will be completely overwhelmed with FoW's, Chant, Misdirection, and your win conditions. One of the challenges to playing this deck is to know how to conserve your win conditions.

It is true that the deck can't go off at instant speed, but the detrimental effects of that are only present in the mirror match, a little in the control match-up, and if your opponent surprises you and pulls off lethal damage when you didn't expect it, but keep in mind the deck does have instants, and alot of them. Just because it can't win on the stack doesn't mean it can't utilize the stack. The mirror match is fixed rather well by the chants, the stronger draw power more than balances out a few less instant speed cards against control, and so long as you can estimate how fast your opponent's deck can kill you, you shouldn't be surprised very often.

Please check the description before commenting, as you really only brought up 2-3 issues not already there.

SpikeyMikey
03-19-2005, 10:59 PM
My question doesn't relate to the speed of the combo, which in this environment is more or less irrelevant. My question is: Can this deck storm up as or more consistantly as Solidarity on the turn it goes off. While there is a great deal of draw, your deck does have, as you pointed out, a heavy reliance on High Tide, something Solidarity can go off without. They can storm up with Resets and whatever else, whereas you need to get High Tides off, you're not generating your storm count with just Faeries and Snaps. With 6 or 7 lands, they can reset a couple times and have the mana to pop off 5 or 6 draw spells, then finish with a Freeze or two. You're not actually generating mana unless you resolve Tide. I can't see any way this is more consistant, and the increase of a single turn isn't worth the lack of consistancy, imho.

Ray D 3
03-20-2005, 09:40 AM
My question doesn't relate to the speed of the combo, which in this environment is more or less irrelevant. My question is: Can this deck storm up as or more consistantly as Solidarity on the turn it goes off. While there is a great deal of draw, your deck does have, as you pointed out, a heavy reliance on High Tide, something Solidarity can go off without. They can storm up with Resets and whatever else, whereas you need to get High Tides off, you're not generating your storm count with just Faeries and Snaps. With 6 or 7 lands, they can reset a couple times and have the mana to pop off 5 or 6 draw spells, then finish with a Freeze or two. You're not actually generating mana unless you resolve Tide. I can't see any way this is more consistant, and the increase of a single turn isn't worth the lack of consistancy, imho.
This deck has actually shown itself to be more consistent than traditional Solidarity.

The deck's reliance on High Tide has really not been as much of a draw back as I thought it would be (As a matter of fact, the only situation in which it becomes a real problem is when control drops a chalice for 1 on you.). The deck has 7 ways to tutor for it and 3 ways to draw it, as well as 12 lightning fast hand refinement spells, which in my testing makes it go off far more reliably than traditional Solidarity, which ranges from 6-9 ways of getting it or getting Thawing Glaciers, and much less cost efficient hand refinement spells as well as weaker tutors.

As far as untap effects go, this deck actually has More untap effects than the original, which means you will not fizzle out as often due to not drawing into one. Also, once again, the tutor power and mana efficient hand refinement spells will find you those untap effects you need to keep going off. Note that with 4 islands out Snap generates just as much mana with a Cloud of Faeries as Turnabout does, generates double the storm count, and requires only half the initial mana investment.

This deck is actually so consistent when going off that it almost never needs to wish for the Brain Freeze to win. It just keeps going and going and going until you can win by making the opponent draw a huge/infinite number of cards with a draw X spell while having multi Force of Will back-up.

If your asking whether or not I can raise the storm count without High Tide, then my answer as I already pointed out is no. However, the ease with which I can find one makes up for that imho. If counters scare you, Orim's Chant, eot Turnabout, FoW, and more High Tides will help you out there. If youíre worried about something like U/G Madness, Glaciers won't help for 2 reasons: 1) There is a very good chance they are running Wasteland, 2) They will just counter the first Reset/Turnabout you play and proceed to kill you.

My testing has shown this deck to be faster, more consistent, and more resilient than traditional Solidarity. I am fully aware that this is a rather bold assertion, but please, please don't take my word for it. Proxy it up and test it out.
(Just be sure to conserve your win conditions.)

Grollub
03-24-2005, 09:10 PM
Here's an extended decklist that might be interesting...

Jeff Novekoff
2nd Place
PTQ-2/12/2005
Cold Shower
Lands:
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
8 Island
1 Plains
Creatures:
4 Cloud Of Faeries
4 Sunscape Familiar
Spells:
3 Brain Freeze
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Snap
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Flash Of Insight
1 Turnabout
4 Sapphire Medallion
4 Chrome Mox
Sideboard:
2 Deep Analysis
3 Prismatic Strands
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Stifle
1 Orim's Chant
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Flash Of Insight
1 Words Of Wisdom

Obviously High Tides would be superior to Sunscape Familiar (I think). Just thought I would add the list, it might have some nifty ideas. :)

tehmaty
03-24-2005, 09:31 PM
Solidarity goldfishes turns 3-4, sometimes as early as turn 2, so you're not any faster than they are.

Frankly, losing control of the stack is huge, especially because you need a High Tide to win. Against Solidarity, you're virtually holding them the game on the platter, as they will let it resolve, maybe let you play a few more spells to up the storm count and then win using your cards...

Solidarity to me is a far more flexible deck to play with, which is completely due to the fact that it wins on the opponent's turn. There are so many random cards floating around in 1.5 that hose both of these decks (Solitary Confinement, Ivory Mask, Rule of Law/Arcane Lab, etc.) that sometimes you need that instant speed to win before it resolves.

Also, winning via Braingeyser is a liability when you have mediocre cards; getting the mana required to make them draw out is a lot more difficult than the Solidarity player playing 10 spells (heck, they don't even need to play them all - a huge bonus) and then randomly win with multiple Brain Freezes.

Ray D 3
03-24-2005, 09:35 PM
I tested the Intuition/AK engine a while ago and I found that I disliked it for several reasons. In short, it was slow, took up too many slots, and couldn't do anything the deck already couldn't do.
*Added to the cards not included section.

Sapphire Medallion was also tested, and the reasons for not including it are already listed.

The fourth Cunning Wish was tested as well, but it just seemed to make the deck too mana hungry, and didn't add much to the deck. Three has proved to be a very reliable number in testing.

Thanks for the list.


Solidarity goldfishes turns 3-4, sometimes as early as turn 2, so you're not any faster than they are.

Frankly, losing control of the stack is huge, especially because you need a High Tide to win. Against Solidarity, you're virtually holding them the game on the platter, as they will let it resolve, maybe let you play a few more spells to up the storm count and then win using your cards...

Solidarity to me is a far more flexible deck to play with, which is completely due to the fact that it wins on the opponent's turn. There are so many random cards floating around in 1.5 that hose both of these decks (Solitary Confinement, Ivory Mask, Rule of Law/Arcane Lab, etc.) that sometimes you need that instant speed to win before it resolves.

Also, winning via Braingeyser is a liability when you have mediocre cards; getting the mana required to make them draw out is a lot more difficult than the Solidarity player playing 10 spells (heck, they don't even need to play them all - a huge bonus) and then randomly win with multiple Brain Freezes.

Solidarity has an average goldfish turn of 4.5 (and the odds of goldfishing turn 2 are infinitesimal if not non-existent), while this deck has an average of 3.5. (We're talking average, not range.)

Once again, I would like to note that I am not conceding complete control of the stack, as I still have a large number of instants. I would like to point out that Solidarity, although a difficult match-up is not by any means an auto-loss. It comes down to the better/luckier player wins, just like it always does. You can still eot turnabout them then go off on your turn, you can still wish for and use Brain Freeze in response to a draw spell, you can even wish for an Orim's Chant for protection. Game 2 it even gets a little better thanks to double maindeck chant effects.
They have the advantage, NOT an auto-win.

It is true that responding to hate by winning is a good thing, but if you are able to go off in response to it, you could just as easily have gone off the turn before (When you consider consistancy issues, it would actually be easier.). Also, keep in mind that these spells do not mean the end of the world; you still have bounce/FoW.

You don't have to win with the Geyser. If you can't get enough mana (very rare), you can still just wish for the Brain Freeze as always. The lack of maindeck freezes may seem like a huge liability after playing Solidarity, but I can tell you that this version is actually consistant enough to pull it off. You should, in all honesty, never be fizzling to yourself unless you were rushed to go off a turn earlier than you could (or you somehow manage to Diminishing Returns into a 7 land hand).

You really can't base your assertions with this deck off of experiences with Solidarity, because Solidarity does not run the same way this deck does. This deck can just keep going and going and going when Solidarity often can't, and therefore is required to draw into 1-2 Freezes to win.

Braves54321
04-08-2005, 01:58 PM
Moved to the contest thread by request.

Ray D 3
04-29-2005, 01:45 PM
I just recently finished some goldfishing with this deck (175 games), and I wanted to share the results, as this deck not only shows very consistent turn 4-5 wins, but also surprisingly consistent turn 3 wins and some (very) occasional turn 2 wins.

Well, here are my results organized by the turn I was attempting to go off and whether I was playing or drawing:

Playing:

5th Turn: 23/25 92% success rate
4th Turn: 20/25 80% success rate
3rd Turn: 16/25 64% success rate
2nd Turn: 2/25 8% success rate

Drawing:

4th Turn: 24/25 96% success rate
3rd Turn: 17/25 68% success rate
2nd Turn: 1/25 4% success rate

I should also like to note that even after all the experience I have with this deck, due to the sheer quantity of decisions required to play this deck, I am sure I made a few play errors, so it is possible that these results could be better.

Note: I added a goldfishing section to my first post, so check there for future updates.

By comparison I goldfished 2 Land Belcher 25 times and here were the results:

Turn 1: 2 8%
Turn 2: 5 20%
Turn 3: 6 24%
Turn 4: 3 12%
Turn 5: 1 4%
Turn 6+: 6 24%
Suicides: 2 8%

Lets look at this for a second:

2-Land Belcher has an 8% chance of winning on the first turn, a 28% chance of winning within the first 2 turns, a 52% chance of winning within the first 3 turns, a 64% chance of winning within the first 4 turns, and a 68% chance of winning within the first 5 turns.

Higher Tide has a 0% chance of going off on the first turn, an 8% chance of winning within the first 2 turns, a 64% chance of winning within the first 3 turns, an 80% chance of going off within the first 4 turns, and a 92% chance of winning within the first 5 turns.

I believe that what we really need in the way of fast combo is a deck that can win consistantly within 3 turns. This deck has a 64% chance of winning within 3 turns, which is 12% better than what is currently accepted as the top fast combo deck of our format. That seems extremely good for a deck that actually wants the game to go long.

I know that my results are based only on 25 games, but it seemed fairly accurate in my experience with Belcher.

MattH
05-02-2005, 04:44 PM
I really want this deck to be as good as you claim, because it's actually within my budget, unlike other decks running 8-12 duals!

How hurt would a straight-blue version, lacking the Tundra, be? How impacted is the deck if I can't acquire all seven fetchlands?

umbowta
05-03-2005, 02:44 PM
Just a quick shot at a different name for the deck...."Spring Tide".

Sring tide is actually the name given to the higher than normal tides occuring at the new, and full phases of the moon. This alignment of the earth, moon, and sun causes an increased gravitational effect and thus, causes higher tides.

Ray D 3
05-03-2005, 03:37 PM
How hurt would a straight-blue version, lacking the Tundra, be? How impacted is the deck if I can't acquire all seven fetchlands?

Actually, I'm considering making it mono-Blue, as I think Brainfreeze actually does just as much, if not more than the Chant effects in the Solidarity match-up, and they do not make the deck vulnerable to Wasteland at all.


I estimate the optimal number of Fetch lands to be either 6 or 7. If you have to go under that, all it does is weaken Brainstorm, and make running white ill-advised.


Regarding "Spring Tide", I like it.

Could a mod please change the name accordingly for me?

Ray D 3
05-18-2005, 07:05 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I feel this warrants bumping.

I just came across a card in the Saviors of Kamigawa spoiler:

Ideas Unbound
UU
Sorcery - Arcane
Draw 3 cards. Discard 3 at end of turn.

Needless to say, this card should work wonders for this deck (note it even makes a decent set up card). Therefore, here is the new list:

Main Deck:
4x Force of Will

3x Meditate
4x Ideas Unbound

4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Turnabout

4x High Tide

3x Cunning Wish
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions

4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
9x Island

Sideboard:

2x Brain Freeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Snap
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Misdirection
1x Stifle
1x Evacuation
1x Hibernation
1x Rebuild
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor

The ability to not give your opponent a new hand while going off should help in both the Solidarity and the control/aggro-control match-ups. However, it makes the deck more susceptible to black discard and the loss of returns means that each card can only be played once. Hopefully, this will be a benificial trade-off, but then again, it may not.

I would really like to hear from others on this one though.

Edit: Ok, quick change, White was cut as it was no longer pulling its weight. It just didn't do enough against solidarity, so the plan now is to just grab a freeze (Game 2 1 is maindeck) to slow them down, then cast a turnabout eot and go off on your turn uninterrupted.



Edited By Ray D 3 on 1125189173

cheeseman
05-18-2005, 07:16 PM
Yeah, Ideas Unbound will have a HUGE impact on combo in both Legacy and Vintage. Why did they print this thing? Decks like this one in Legacy and decks like TPS in Vintage will have a hayday.

Ok, enough ranting about Saviors: I like your deck, and have tried but failed in my attempts at the archetype in Extended. I still don't see why you don't just go mono-blue, though.

Ray D 3
05-18-2005, 07:29 PM
Yeah, Ideas Unbound will have a HUGE impact on combo in both Legacy and Vintage. Why did they print this thing? Decks like this one in Legacy and decks like TPS in Vintage will have a hayday.

Ok, enough ranting about Saviors: I like your deck, and have tried but failed in my attempts at the archetype in Extended. I still don't see why you don't just go mono-blue, though.
I am only running a single Tundra. If it bothers you that much, you don't have to play it. However, the sideboarded Abeyances are the best answer I have found to Solidarity. The 2 Abeyance 1 Brain Freeze bit worked very well, but now I have to refigure what to take out (I used to take out the returns).

Anyway, I doubt this will make any real impact in T1. They have plenty of more broken options. It might find play in a few fast combo decks, but they don't usually hold their own in a competitive field. Only time will tell.

TorpidNinja
05-27-2005, 01:54 PM
Hope I'm not unearthing a dead topic...

Just curious if you've tested Toils of Night and Day. For the most part it seems like a bad Turnabout, but hear me out.

If this deck is going for the speed finish as opposed to a slow control finish, this can accellerate the deck by a turn. It can make turn 2 wins more likely with minor hand sculpting but would probably necessitate making the mana base mono blue.

Something like: 2) Island, Tide, Faeries, Toils

Puts you at the same mana as if you had Turnabout in hand but, with the lower cost, allows for subsequent Toils to offer much greater mana development.

And I'm also a huge advocate of Ideas Unbound in this deck.

Ray D 3
05-27-2005, 07:14 PM
Well, it isn't always going for a speed finish mind you. When going off the deck pretty much always has 3+ lands in play, so Toils is 3 mana to get 4 mana, while Turnabout is 4 mana for 6 mana. Obviously, the number increases with the number of lands out as well. Also, Turnabout is a good portion of my game against Solidarity and Control. The ability to cast it eot and go off unhindered on my next turn is quite good.

Thanks for the input though.

GMontag
06-01-2005, 03:58 AM
With the addition of Ideas Unbound, perhaps you should consider Flash of Insight. Discarding a Flash of Insight to an Ideas Unbound while you are setting up would work wonders later when you are trying to go off.

Ray D 3
06-04-2005, 06:17 PM
Flash is too expensive, and Ideas Unbound isn't exactly meant to be a set up card. This deck likes it's draw cards to see more than 1 card for each mana it spends. I did consider throwing a couple in the board for the control match-up, but nothing was worth sideboarding out to fit them in, so it wasn't pulling it's weight.

Btw, -1 Stroke of Genius, +1 Cunning Wish to my last list for numerous reasons apparent in goldfishing and control match-ups (It is too situational, and hardly ever needed, and if by chance I do have some insane amount of mana and really need stroke for some (from what I have seen, non-existant), reason other than the kill, I might as well just scroll up a wish and wish for it.

currence
06-06-2005, 02:11 PM
Heh, RayD3, in your last post you said Ideas was not a set up card, but in your first May 18 post you said it was a decent set up card... I'm going to go with the more recent opinion.

I was fishing the deck, and then played it against a Raffinity-Meddling Mage deck for awhile last night. It seemed to be great fun (except when he wisened up and called Snap on the Mage, which slowed me down a bit), but I was wondering: is the Stroke the primary win? There were quite a few times when I could Wish for the Brainfreeze and just win, and I realized that I'd have to resolve all four High Tides and use two Cunning Wish (of three... I was testing with three main, but I like your recent change of putting Stroke in the board) to nab the fourth Tide and the Capsize. Is the Stroke the primary win just because it eliminates any second or third game (hopefully they don't concede)?

Anyhow, I really like how the deck looks so far, and I like the addition of Ideas... I didn't want to play with Diminishing Returns anyways.

Also, props on the first post. That was probably the best deck analysis I've ever read; if only every analysis was like yours, our format would be much more intelligent (heck, even a rigorous analysis of Vial Goblins could be "intelligent", heh).

Ray D 3
06-06-2005, 10:57 PM
Ok, let me clarify. Ideas unbound makes a decent set up card, not an ideal one. It depends on the situation, but it is not something I'd be gung-ho to use.

You do not need to go infinite with Stroke, the deck is perfectly capable of generating 60+ mana while going off. If you can grab the Freeze and you think it will get the job done, sure just go for it. The point to taking 40 min. to go off is to make them decide between letting you drain the clock or scooping without full knowledge that you could have gone off without fizzling. It is pretty much lose, lose for them.

Btw, thanks. Glad to see someone got some benefit out of my post.

currence
06-07-2005, 12:33 AM
Yeah, I was just messing around about the Ideas things. I was almost never in a position where I needed to play Ideas for set up: what with twelve one-costing excellent set up cards, and Scrolls to nab any necessary thing. I can see how it would help in a pinch, though.

Once I grab the rest of the cards for the deck, I'll play it at a few tournys and report my findings. I may screw around with the SB... I'll try to find some neat stuff that may be worthy of discussion, because I definitely feel this deck could be competitive. Just for reference, I'll be testing the Ideas version, not the Returns/Geyser version.

Here's to combo in 1.5!

Kryand
06-08-2005, 04:24 AM
I'm interested in how your Solidarity matches go, assuming you've tested against that deck a lot. Initially it seems like they would have an easy time, simply going off in response to your Abeyance/Chant/Stroke/Freeze, but if they sit there while you are going off it would obviously allow you to build up enough FoWs to counter every spell in their hand.
Basically it would depend on what strategies the two of you choose to follow. How does it usually go?

Ray D 3
06-09-2005, 09:29 PM
They have more control over the stack and maindeck Brainfreeze. You have the ability to tutor more often for things to stop them and end of turn turnabout. Game 1 you just Scroll up Forces, Wish up a Freeze/Misd. to slow them down, and eot Turnabout them to set up an uninterrupted win on your turn. Game 2 you get a maindeck Freeze to scroll up, and you follow the same plan. Get things to stop them, then Turnabout them eot. Also note that if you get a great goldfishing hand either game and are going first, it is often a good idea to just go off turn 3 (Just don't do anything fancy. Don't play extra tides if you don't have to, and don't play a draw spell with a lethal storm count. Just grab your wish/freeze and win), as they will have one hell of a time going off with only 2 lands in play; Understand that there is some risk in this plan, but it can pay off fairly often, so long as you know when to risk it.

The match-up is both draw and skill based, but overall in their favor. Just try to out think them and pray you draw the right cards to overpower them.

Kryand
06-26-2005, 07:18 PM
Quick question... why is this deck still in the Developmental forum? I've playtested with both this deck and Solidarity quite a bit, and I've had much better results with this deck. In my opinion it is better than Solidarity, but whether or not that's completely accurate isn't an issue at this moment. No matter which deck is better, the fact remains that this deck has a good matchup against every deck in the LMF other than Solidarity itself, and if that doesn't qualify a deck to be in the Open forum, then I don't know what does. Pile on the fact that Storm/High Tide is a proven archetype.

From there we might have a better chance at evaluating the advantages/disadvantages between playing this deck and Solidarity, because people are much more likely to test out a deck in the Open forum then a deck in the Developmental forum. Especially when that deck has a counterpart with very similar cards sitting in the LMF.

Ray D 3
06-26-2005, 08:51 PM
Quick note: I updated my first post for the new list. Hope this doesn't confuse anyone.

P.S. I just put in the movement request to the entire mod staff, so lets hope for the best.

GRAH
06-26-2005, 11:49 PM
I'm not sure if this entirely deserves to be in Open. It is a good deck with an rather stable build, but has it been tested in any major tournaments?

Ray D 3
06-27-2005, 01:05 AM
Whether you agree or disagree with this deck being here, is an issue that should be reserved to PMs to either the Mods (if you wish to hear why they moved it) and myself (if you wish to hear why I feel it belongs here), as it does nothing productive.

Please keep such comments to PM's

Thank you.

Evil Roopey
06-28-2005, 12:00 PM
I have a few comments.

We all know that I love combo decks, soi decided I'd give this one a whirl, and have found that I disagree with some of your card choices.

First of all here is the list I am currently running:

SS (Sorcery-Speed Solidarity)
2x Brain Freeze
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
3x Sleight of Hand
4x Impulse
3x Cunning Wish
2x Turnabout
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Force of Will
2x Merchant Scroll
3x Meditate
3x Ideas Unbound
4x High Tide
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Dela
11x Island

Impulse is amazing. Thats on thing I found out that you seem to think is false. Wtih 11 1cc cantrips, getting your second land should be easy, and this way you are digging for your third or grabbing the well needed High Tide.

Thats another thing. I completely disagree with only three High Tides in the main. This deck CANNOT go off with a High Tide in hand. Wishing for it seems poor because, well that means you are going off turn 4 instead of 3. Cutting the High Tide seems poor at best.

Why so many Fetches? You are already running 16 lands. Running that many fetches only hurts your mana base. It isn't worth the Brainstorm ricks to not have any lands.

I have found that Idea's Unbound is an amazing card, but should be kept at 3. The card sucks in the early game, because it is card disadvantge when used as a set-up spell.

4 Merhcant Scroll? That seems excessive. You talk about how Impulse cost to much, but you are playing Scroll which is the same thing, minus the ability to grab Sorceries and Lands.

I like the list that I have, it puts up unbelivably consistant turn 3. Its rediculous actually. Test it out, see how you like it.

Off like a prom dress,
Roop

Ray D 3
06-28-2005, 01:01 PM
I would be willing to give you the High Tide maindeck choice, if your metagame calls for lots of turn 3 wins, but the extra tutors are really, really helpful if you have the extra turn.

Cutting Merchant Scroll is Horrible! Like you said, High Tide is needed to go off, and it is easily the most flexible card in the deck. It is also, not slow. 2 mana to find the card you need is far superior to 4+ mana and usually 2 turns digging for it.

Ideas Unbound, I have found to work amazingly as a 4 of. I think running only 3 is insane, as it is insane when going off, and if you really need to, you can use it as a set-up card with relatively high success.

Impulse I could see as a 2-of at best, which I am testing out right now actually, and cutting Sleight is worse for land drops, as your second land drop is far more important than your third.

3x Force of Will seems questionable, but dependant on what turn your metagame will require you to have a counter.

2x Brainfreeze maindeck is absolutely unnecessary. I could not see running more than 1.

Cutting Turnabouts is really turning the deck too far in the turn 3 direction, and forces reliance on Faerie+Snap, which you will find can be hampered significantly by something as common as mogg fanatic. Turnabout is also a good part of your game in the Solidarity match-up.

As a last note, fetch lands don't hamper your ability to find early land (especially when you consider that Brainstorm has 4 times the chance of showing up of the specific removed land), and the effect in the middle of going off can be quite significant. The only reason I could see running less fetchies is for stifles running around in your metagame.

I feel that you are trying to make this into too much of a speed goldfishing deck. To be honest, I have found that the important goldfishing turns are turn 4 (playing) and turn 3 (drawing). If you feel differently, please tell me what you feel I am over-looking.

Evil Roopey
06-28-2005, 02:44 PM
To me the 1 turn difference in speed is the world for this deck. It means in the difference in your opponent getting more hate cards for you, or even killing you. The fact that I do push for a turn 3 instead of turn 4 also makes the difference in the Solidarity match-up. Them trying to combo off with only 2 lands in play is extremely risky. I know that they just build off of your storm, but you should have Forces and a Stifle in hand, or any other way of stopping them, when they do try to go off.

I'm still not seeing how Merchant Scroll is more powerful than Impulse, when Impulse digs four cards deep and can net you any of those cards, instead of just an instant. Impulse definatly is the best set-up card in the deck, no questions asked.

The fourth Idea's Unbound has always been, unnessecary and frankly has been in my hand when I didn't want it in the first few turns. I will admit that the card is absolutely rediculous while going off, but only when you are going off. Hence the reason I run 3.

Brain Freeze is how you kill people. Brain Freeze I think you be at a minimum of 2. You really can't go lower than that. Then all your opponent has to do is counter Cunning Wishes all day instead of worrying about anything else. I don't think that it even makes sense to run less than two.

Roop

Ray D 3
06-28-2005, 05:21 PM
I really can't see how you find Merchant Scroll to be worse a set-up/going off card than impulse. It has proven to be one of the most valulable cards in the deck to me, and impulse has always left something to be desired.

When I used to run impulse, I used to find that I was making a Scroll vs. Impulse decision far too often, and I almost always chose the Scroll, as it was guranteed to get me what I wanted.

Spending 2 mana for 1 card is not a good trade-off unless it is exactly the card you need.

I have found that Scrolls add to the turn 3 count more than any other card in the deck, as they tutor in time for tides/any other piece you really need to go off, and the ability to grab a Snap on will is amazing at making you Not Fizzle turn 3.

Brainfreeze is absolutely not needed as a 2 of. As a 1 of, I understand. If you would run a full set of scrolls, there should never be an issue getting it in time to win. If your opponent decides to counter wishes alone, he/she is an idiot, as they will be giving you time to draw into counters and your other wishes. I honestly wouldn't even run 1 in the main unless you expect the solidarity mirror, as by the time Im ready to use it, I never have trouble getting up the mana for Wish->Freeze, or even Scroll->Wish->Freeze.

As for 3 Ideas, I have sort of found 7 draw spells to be pretty much the bare minimum, but if you manage to continuously hit what you need, more power to you. 7 seems to be the right number to power through disruption, and it seems to give the deck a great deal of those 3rd turn wins you love so much. Perhaps the biggest problem with cutting draw (and the Turnabout/Merchant Scrolls) is that it makes winning with Stroke rather difficult, which will become rather painful at the first sight of Gaea's Blessing.

Btw, goldfishing Solidarity is a good strategy when you have a hand that can go off turn 3, through disruption, and with decent control over the stack...AND you are going first. It happens, but not frequently. Also, note that Turnabout is GOLD in that match-up, as is Scroll which gets you answers to prevent them from dominating the stack and killing you before you can set up a hand full of answers.

BTW, again, out-running hate is nice, but not worth relying on such a disruptable mana engine, especially if we're talking minor, MINOR speed differences. Also, Merchant Scroll->Force of Will is another way to handle hate, as is siding in 1 bounce spell that can be fetched with Merchant Scroll.

P.S. Merchant Scroll is good.

sauceding
07-05-2005, 04:05 PM
You will only beat Solidarity if you get them on turn 3 on the play. Goldfishing is the definite strategy, but the only problem would be if they got off a Stifle somehow. Keep the hand with Force of Will no doubt. Do we want to find a way to fit in Abeyance into the md for game 1, just incase of enterring a high-solidarity area? I mean, that chance of that is somewhat slim, but it is a precaution.

Do we want to use Twincast? We could High Tide, play a few spells, untap some lands, pay 6 for a Turnabout, Twincast it, resolve Twincast, play a few instants (Cunning Wish, Brainstorm), resolve Turnabout, and hope that we got a few more spells to play out?

Ray D 3
07-05-2005, 05:09 PM
Solidarity-- I'm going to have to be a little more detailed for this one:

They have more control over the stack, the ability to go off without casting High Tide, and maindeck Brainfreezes, so this will be a rough game, but you have some tricks up your sleeve as well.

If you get a great goldfishing hand either game and If you are going first, it is often a good idea to attempt to go off turn 3 (Just don't do anything fancy. Don't play extra tides if you don't have to, and don't play a draw spell with a lethal storm count if you can avoid it. Just grab your wish/freeze and win), as they will have one hell of a time going off with only 2 lands in play; Understand that there is some risk in this plan, and that it takes experience to pull off, but it can definitely pay off if used correctly.

If this doesn't happen, use the following strategy:

Scroll/Wish up Counters and/or Freezes to slow them down. After you have found these answers, the game becomes a race to the perfect hand.

During this race it is a good idea to start probing your opponent with eot Turnabouts, as if you can resolve one, you can set up an uninterrupted win on your turn (However, if you need the instant speed untap power, hold onto it).

Somewhere during this stalemate, it can be a good idea to cast a Cloud of Faeries for 2 reasons: 1) it makes your snaps into instant speed untap power. 2) It functions as pressure on your opponent which can push your opponent into attempting a win and walk into a Brainfreeze or a forced fizzle. I would only attempt this if you have an 8 card hand, and sufficient land to defend yourself if they attempt to go off in response.

Also, keep in mind, that during the Early turns, it is not a bad idea to try to resolve a Meditate on your opponents turn in order to put you at an advantage in the race to a perfect hand. Later on, its not a good idea, as your opponent can actually go off on their turn, and you usually want to hold on to Meditate anyway, since it is part of that "perfect" hand.

The match-up is both draw and skill based, and is generally in their favor. Just try to out think them and hope to draw the right cards to overpower them.


...



Twincast-- Situational as hell. It works optimally with too few cards in the deck, and forces you into large mana investments, which can be fatal. Also, and perhaps worst of all, it can not diversify your hand, so it will be functioning as an extra combo piece that you DON'T need a good portion of the time. Despite being relatively useful and doubling as a counter, it just doesn't cut it. Try it out and see for yourself.
I have tested the match-up, and goldfishing can work, and it can work well, but it is definately NOT always (or even all that often) the right way to beat Solidarity.

If you really want something for the Solidarity heavy meta-game, your better off just maindecking 1-2 Brainfreezes and siding as many as you can fit. Abeyance wasn't all that good, as they can combo around it, it can't be scrolled up, and it doesn't kill them.

Twincast...well just read above. I just added it to the cards not included section.

JamesP
07-15-2005, 02:36 PM
Amazing deck, really, there is absolutely nothing I'd consider changing in the maindeck, it looks and plays very well.

What do you think about something like Null Rod in the sideboard for things like Belcher combo, and random aggro such as Ravager which can have an extremely quick clock? Is there anything worthy of being cut in the sideboard to make room for some of them?

Zilla
07-15-2005, 02:40 PM
As far as I'm aware, no one actually plays Belcher or Ravager anymore. If they did, Pithing Needle would probably be the better SB choice, simply because it has a vastly wider array of uses than Null Rod, which is narrow and kinda crappy in Legacy right now.

sauceding
07-15-2005, 02:51 PM
First off, you have Force of Will to counter the Belcher...which will probably be Duressed early on. Seriously, Belcher isn't a great problem for this deck. You'd probably fetch up a Stifle for it and then go off on the next turn. Or just get off of the ground on turn 3 and hope for the win, they aren't going to disrupt you. Affinity isn't exactly a problem either, you have Cunning Wish for a number of cards to beat Affiinty up with.

Ray_D_3, perhaps you wish to tell us what current testing is showing or if this has done well in your hands at any big tournaments. I'd love to see this deck make a splash at Big Arse this weekend.

Kryand
07-15-2005, 04:50 PM
As far as performance at big tournaments go, you can check my tourny report (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1786) at a recent event for a Mox Pearl where I came in 2nd with this deck. Sadly, I won't be going to BAII, but I think Ray is. If we're lucky he'll bring his baby along and post the results. :;):

As for Belcher, if you can stop Belcher from hitting play you should be good to go to set up a couple more turns and just go off (unless they sold their soul to Satan to get lucky at Magic).
As for Affinity, all it takes is out-racing them. If they get a good hand you might need some SB help, but otherwise it should be pretty easy.
In any case, I think the wish board is great as is and doesn't need any changes, nor can it afford to run any non-wishable targets in multiples. If your meta is very focused on a certain type of deck, only then could I see dropping some SB cards that don't help at all against said deck for some cards that do.

The only real problem you'll run into with this deck is Solidarity. Ray's evaluation is really good there, but you'd still have to practice this matchup many, many times against real opponents if you expect to be playing against it in your meta. In a Solidarity-heavy meta, I would seriously think hard about whether or not you want to play this deck. As can be seen in my report, the presence of only a single Solidarity kept me from the Mox.

legacyplayer
07-22-2005, 01:59 PM
Before you dismiss Saphire Medalion, you should try running it with Deep Analysis.

Ray D 3
07-23-2005, 09:01 PM
I didn't dismiss Medallion.

Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, Brainstorm, Ideas Unbound all remain completely unaffected by the damn thing. On top of that, casting it actually slows the deck down a full turn.

Deep Analysis is bad even with Medallion out. 2U to draw 2 cards is not exactly amazing, and it isn't even good against control, as it will take you 4-6 turns to cast it initially, and the damage for flashback can be very bad when factories are swinging at your head (believe it or not, it does make a difference).

scarface
08-31-2005, 11:04 PM
Has peregrine drake been mentioned at all? It's basically a 5-mana turnabout that can be snapped. Maybe running like 2 copies wouldn't be a bad idea. I disagree with running 3 snaps with just the 4 faeries, as there are many decks that won't run any creatures, and the faeries would be your only possible targets. I've tested goldfishing with the drakes, and they don't seem to hinder the deck's abitlity to see turn 3 wins. Also, unlike palinchron, drakes can be useful even before you've got the game won.

Edit: One more thing: why don't you play with twincasts? They've proved incredibly powerful in solidarity, and spring tide has great drawing spells to fork even without a meditate in hand.

Ray D 3
09-03-2005, 01:06 PM
I only play 3 turnabouts for a reason. 5 mana is far from awsome, especially when you are trying to win turn 3 (5 mana for 6 mana=not fun times), and it can not be tutored for.

It is hard to tell what is hurting you win turn 3 and what isn't without comparing a large number of goldfishing results. I can tell you from experience that playing something as clunky as Drake will make many hands quite shitty, and will make you cry when you are digging for an untap effect and find yourself unable to cast the one you find.

As far as 3 Snaps goes, I find it to be the right number for a few reasons. You will find there will be alot of games where you find yourself scrolling up the last Snap to get the storm/mana count high enough to win. The second reason is to reduce your vulnerability to creature removal (In response, Snap it again.). Lastly, the decks that will be pushing you into faster wins do tend to run creatures. I have very, very rarely found myself with dead Snaps in hand. The only thing I would really consider replacing a Snap with would be a maindeck bounce spell.

Finally, Twincast is crap. It requires large mana investments, which this deck doesn't like making, and has very few good targets, unlike Solidarity.

Zirilian
09-11-2005, 07:24 AM
Well, ravnicka spoiler completed, so I looked for things for this deck, and here's what I think could be played.



Eye of the Storm 5UU
Enchantment Rare
Whenever a player plays an instant or sorcery card, remove it from the game. Then that player copies each instant or sorcery card removed from the game with Eye of the Storm. For each copy, the player may play the copy without paying its mana cost.

This is pretty interesting though, if we can play it, that is.


Compulsive Research 2U
Sorcery Common
Target player draws three cards. Then that player discards two cards unless he or she discards a land card.

Meh...This could be decent, although I think it won't make the cut.


Shadow of Doubt U/BU/B
Instant Rare
(U/B can be paid with either U or B.)
Players can't search libraries this turn.
Draw a card.
#253/306

Anti-fetchland and survival t3ch, and also good vs Matrons...
+It cantrips too :).
It only hinders our fetches and scrolls, so it might be worth looking into.
Btw, can you use this as some sort of counterspell, or is it like orim's chant?
I hink it's the first, but I'm not sure ???
Can anyone confirm?

Bottled Cloister 4
Artifact Rare
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, remove your hand from the game face down.
At the beginning of your upkeep, return all cards removed from the game with Bottled Cloister to your hand, then draw a card.

Anti-Solidarity, that's for sure [oops].
Maybe this is worth looking into as Sb card versus Solidarity and Control like Gro, although it also disables our FoW's.

Edit:Ok, I should start reading the card better [glare].

Bastian
09-11-2005, 08:12 AM
How is bottled cloister anti-anything if you just remove your hand from the game. Your hand alone. You. Never your opponents. This basically Grafted Skullcap, but slightly better.

Shadow of Doubt is overrated. What are you taking for this? And is this better than Stifle? Don't think so...

Eye of the Storm has the potential to be "the" card of the set. I'm just still wondering how... And in the end is it "the card" or is it just a "win more". Well, either way it does deserve a lot more exploration.

TorpidNinja
09-11-2005, 03:13 PM
I'd be more interested in something like this for this sorta sorcery speed deck.

Cloudstone Curio 3
Artifact
Whenever a nonartifact permanent comes into play under your control, you may return another permanent you control that shares a permanent type with it to its owner's hand.

Just bouncing back and forth the faeries gives you abitrarily large storm count.

Zirilian
09-11-2005, 03:17 PM
Yeah, but still...
It being good with exactly 4 cards and being useless with the rest isn't enough to include it, methinks.

Kryand
09-11-2005, 03:56 PM
Eye of the Storm is way too mana intensive. 7 mana is ridiculous, if you can afford to spend that much on one spell, you should have the game won already. Definetly a win-more card.

Compulsive Research is the best one on the list, but there is nothing in the deck worth taking out to add it in. The deck needs its one-mana draw spells, and all of the other draw spells are strictly better than this card while going off. That pretty much just leaves Turnabout, which has been my friend too many times to drop it for another *ok* draw spell.

Shadow of Doubt I really don't see as being worth it at all. You shouldn't need to slow anyone else down a turn. While going off, I can't think of a single shuffle effect that you should care about.

Bottled Cloister is a complete waste. 4 mana for a card that's only useful at all before you go off is crap... but I think we already determined that. Just to be sure, though... no.

Cloudstone Curio is a cute trick, but like Zir said, a card that's only useful with 4 cards in the deck isn't that good. It is basically just another way to go infinite. I suppose it could warrant testing, but the combo is more vulnerable and probably would be a waste 80% of the time you get it out anyway.

74-1123039401
09-13-2005, 04:56 PM
dont dismiss Cloudstone Curio just yet, splash white in order to SB orims chant and E tutor, and play one cloudstone MD, because garanteed storm count of 123634636 is just too good to pass up.

frogboy
09-13-2005, 06:04 PM
So splash white to play one card that's solid and one card that's not very good to play another card that's awful and is only good when you have double Cloud. I, um, like it.

74-1123039401
09-13-2005, 07:43 PM
So splash white to play one card that's solid and one card that's not very good to play another card that's awful and is only good when you have double Cloud. I, um, like it.
there shouldn't be a problem with splashing w, just replace 4 island with tundra, you already play fetches. you end being able to play chants, wich are nececary against some matchups, you also get a way to go infinate without high tide, good against disruption.

TorpidNinja
09-13-2005, 08:54 PM
No no, frogboy is absolutely right.

The Curio is really strong but it would require an entire deck to be built around it; it can't be just thrown into a combo deck haphazardly.

Ray D 3
09-14-2005, 01:21 PM
there shouldn't be a problem with splashing w, just replace 4 island with tundra, you already play fetches.
Hell no...why the hell would you want 4 tundras for so few cards in the first place?!

If you ever need to splash White to sb chants (like I did in the past) do so with 1 MAYBE 2 Tundras. I cut them because they weren't doing much of everything and losing randomly to a single wasteland when I should have won was getting annoying as hell.

Morphling_89
09-22-2005, 11:16 PM
Why not run Bubbling Muck post-Ravnica (thanks to grave) for increased consistancy. I've been testing this version:

Version 2:

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [OV] Watery Grave

// Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries

// Spells
4 [UD] Bubbling Muck
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (3)
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OV] Meditate
3 [UL] Snap
3 [HL] Merchant Scroll
4 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [ST] Sleight of Hand
3 [JU] Cunning Wish

SB:
1x Brain Freeze
1x High Tide
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Snap
1x Misdirection
1x Stifle
1x Evacuation
1x Hibernation
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor


Quote (Evil Roopey @ June 28 2005,12:00)
I have a few comments.

We all know that I love combo decks, soi decided I'd give this one a whirl, and have found that I disagree with some of your card choices.

First of all here is the list I am currently running:

SS (Sorcery-Speed Solidarity)
2x Brain Freeze
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
3x Sleight of Hand
4x Impulse
3x Cunning Wish
2x Turnabout
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Force of Will
2x Merchant Scroll
3x Meditate
3x Ideas Unbound
4x High Tide
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Dela
11x Island

Impulse is amazing. Thats on thing I found out that you seem to think is false. Wtih 11 1cc cantrips, getting your second land should be easy, and this way you are digging for your third or grabbing the well needed High Tide.

Thats another thing. I completely disagree with only three High Tides in the main. This deck CANNOT go off with a High Tide in hand. Wishing for it seems poor because, well that means you are going off turn 4 instead of 3. Cutting the High Tide seems poor at best.

Why so many Fetches? You are already running 16 lands. Running that many fetches only hurts your mana base. It isn't worth the Brainstorm ricks to not have any lands.

I have found that Idea's Unbound is an amazing card, but should be kept at 3. The card sucks in the early game, because it is card disadvantge when used as a set-up spell.

4 Merhcant Scroll? That seems excessive. You talk about how Impulse cost to much, but you are playing Scroll which is the same thing, minus the ability to grab Sorceries and Lands.

I like the list that I have, it puts up unbelivably consistant turn 3. Its rediculous actually. Test it out, see how you like it.

Off like a prom dress,
Roop

Conform. Now.

-2 Brain Freeze
-4 Impulse

+1 FoW
+2 Merchant Scroll
+1 Ideas Unbound
+1 Turnabout
+1 Slieght of Hand

P.S. Yeah, shadow of doubt acts as a counter. Yeah, it's great.

MattH
09-23-2005, 04:08 AM
If you're running Muck you might as well kill with Tendrils.

Zirilian
09-23-2005, 05:15 AM
It seems that deck will have a greatly increased weakness to Landstill, Vial Goblins and other decks with wasteland, as you need to pop your fetches to produce mana, at which point landstill kills them.

Also,I've never had problems with not getting enough mana.
However, the idea is pretty interesting, so let us know how testing is going :).

Ray:I'm going to open a Spring Tide topic on MTGS, mind if I steal your intro?

Morphling_89
09-24-2005, 12:17 AM
If you're running Muck you might as well kill with Tendrils.

I have been testing a Tendrils version, despite my intinial aversion to it, though it's kinda random. Just go -3 Wish, -1 Bubbling Muck, +2 Tendrils, +1 Tide, +1 Merchant Scroll.

Results are mixed. Turn 2 wins are way up (25%), but turn 3+2 Wins are down (50%). I dunno, I may just be a horrible player. [glare]

EDIT: Mistype. 25% not 27%.

Ray D 3
09-24-2005, 02:36 PM
Turn 2 wins are way up (27%)
Wait...How?!

That seems very high, as turn 2 hands tend to require 2 lands, a tide, a faerie, a snap (or a scroll and a second faerie or scroll), and a draw spell.

Just increasing the tide count shouldn't be producing such drastic results.

As far as turn 3 wins, you need to mull agressively for them if you know you need it. If you are keeping turn 4 hands (which in reality, you often will), it would likely be closer to a 50% chance, but I would think Muck should help here...then again, you cut a scroll and a visions...possibly the 2 strongest cards in the deck...also, cutting a sleight seems questionable as you only have 16 lands, and cutting 2 cantrips is like cutting 1 land, and I think the fetch-count should force you up to 17 lands anyway.

Anyway, I question the need for black, as a single wasteland can stall you out 1-3 turns. This is not something I want to be risking. 8 (11 counting Wishes) High Tides seems like enough to me. The fact that in a pinch, you can wish for Mystical then throw a tide on top on your upkeep and win in a pinch.

troopatroop
09-24-2005, 04:07 PM
because its alot easier to get a storm count of 10 than it is of 20. I've fiddled around with a black version with duress and tendrils and the results showed it was much better. Wasteland hurt a little bit, but overall the black splash was worth it. It still lost to solidarity tho...

Morphling_89
09-24-2005, 04:08 PM
Turn 2 wins are way up (27%)
Wait...How?!

That seems very high, as turn 2 hands tend to require 2 lands, a tide, a faerie, a snap (or a scroll and a second faerie or scroll), and a draw spell.

Just increasing the tide count shouldn't be producing such drastic results.

As far as turn 3 wins, you need to mull agressively for them if you know you need it. If you are keeping turn 4 hands (which in reality, you often will), it would likely be closer to a 50% chance, but I would think Muck should help here...then again, you cut a scroll and a visions...possibly the 2 strongest cards in the deck...also, cutting a sleight seems questionable as you only have 16 lands, and cutting 2 cantrips is like cutting 1 land, and I think the fetch-count should force you up to 17 lands anyway.

Anyway, I question the need for black, as a single wasteland can stall you out 1-3 turns. This is not something I want to be risking. 8 (11 counting Wishes) High Tides seems like enough to me. The fact that in a pinch, you can wish for Mystical then throw a tide on top on your upkeep and win in a pinch.
Probably beacuse I only had time for 12 playtests (27 was a mistype - I meant 25%, which is still high, of cource).
It did seem quite lucky, but ofcource alot of turn 1 minupulation does seem to help.

Overall, I feel adding Muck is probably not worth it, but It does offer some nice possibilities.

Ray D 3
09-24-2005, 04:51 PM
because its alot easier to get a storm count of 10 than it is of 20. I've fiddled around with a black version with duress and tendrils and the results showed it was much better. Wasteland hurt a little bit, but overall the black splash was worth it. It still lost to solidarity tho...
If you play a small number of Tendrils, it becomes difficult to find one before you reach 17 spells anyway. If you play a high number of Tendrils, you will find yourself trying to go off with dead cards in hand. Double Tendrils is NOT a good draw. Spending 8 mana to win can be quite difficult...especially when 4 are black.

Also, Force seems better than duress. It acts as a clutch for the unforseen, stops 1st turn lackeys, and the number of counters your opponent is holding is one thing...the number they can play is another altogether (Forcing them pay the mana is important.).



Edited By Ray D 3 on 1127595105

Zirilian
09-25-2005, 02:09 AM
Well, I started the topic on MTGSalvation, it can be found here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=19243

Ray D 3
09-26-2005, 12:13 PM
Let's discuss the factors that have made me put the deck aside for the time being:

1) Everyone seems to have slots in their boards dedicated to Solidarity hate, which of course also hits me (at least cards like sirocco are les painful).

2) The vulnerability of the Snap engine

3) Solidarity ;_;

If anyone can figure out a way to work on any/all of these flaws, please let me know.



Edited By Ray D 3 on 1130898635

MattH
09-26-2005, 12:39 PM
They could print a Hibernation for anti-red. Short of that, I dunno.

"Jeska"
09-26-2005, 01:02 PM
Excuse me, I play Soliarity and I was just wondering why anyone would want to play a slower version? A crappier version? An all around suckier version than the original tried and true Solidarity??

Welcome to The Source! Please read the forum rules (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2619)---Frogboy



Edited By frogboy on 1127779431

Ray D 3
09-26-2005, 01:16 PM
Excuse me, I play Soliarity and I was just wondering why anyone would want to play a slower version? A crappier version? An all around suckier version than the original tried and true Solidarity??
Try reading the first post...

The basic reasons would be that it doesn't fizzle anywhere near as much, and it wins turn 3.5 not 4.5 (even that is questionable...Solidarity has been known to stall out untill turn 6-7.).

Vimes
09-26-2005, 05:49 PM
You might want to try actually TESTING the deck before dissing it, as it's very good and a deck I would choose to play over solidarity. Or at least reading the very first post.:(

Spynal
09-29-2005, 10:20 PM
After playtesting Spring Tide a good bit for the upcoming GPT, I've come to one of two decisions:

1.) Either I can't read that well
2.) I found a STUPID powerful pseudo-tutor


Since we're going off on our turn, at sorcery speed, it would seem "Ancestral Knowledge" would be a card choice worth consideration:

Ancestral Knowledge
1U
Enchantment

Weatherlight - Rare

Cumulative upkeep: <1>.

When Ancestral Knowledge comes into play, look at the top ten cards of your library, then remove any number of them from the game and put the rest back on top of your library in any order.

If Ancestral Knowledge leaves play, shuffle your library.


In my testing, looking at the top ten cards and having the ability to remove the lands has more or less been GG when cast. I'm pretty sure I don't need to elaborate on the obscene power I've perceived in this card. Now, it's a good possibility I've grossly misunderstood something about this card since I haven't played heavily in a few months, and if I've thought about it all wrong, I'll leave it to Kyrand to mock me whenever possible, both for screwing up this card and nearly top 8'ing with MD Unstable Mutations . :blues:.

I'm not sure this helps very much in any of the problem areas, and it could very well be a "win more" card, but it seems WAY too powerful to dismiss. I have 2 in my build currently, and it more or less ends the game as soon as it hits.

Feel free to correct me if I managed to botch that card at all.

Kryand
09-29-2005, 10:45 PM
It seems worth consideration, but to me it looks like all this card would do theoretically is improve consistency in situations where you have a decent amount of mana and a draw spell waiting: situations where the deck should already have the game in the bag. The deck is already one of the most consistent in the format as it is. As Ray said, it has other problems that need to be addressed first.
Plus, I don't know what you'd drop to add this card, but there's a good chance it would be something very important. Dropping a vital card for a cool card that doesn't do anything by itself is not something I would do.

Spynal
09-29-2005, 11:45 PM
I will grant that on it's own, it's not the greatest card. However, You could pull off some pretty heinous plays like:

Turn 3:

Land, Ancestral Knowledge
Brainstorm

Turn 4:

Fail to pay upkeep, shuffle, draw, win


Obviously not a turn 2 play by any stretch of the imagination :)

I just remember us testing the card in Salvagers.dec, and it was more or less Demonic Tutor when combined with cantrips.

I agree, however, that the other problems must be addressed.


I think the most glaring flaw is the Solidarity problem. I REALLY like the proposed white splash, since Chanting/Abeyancing v. Solidarity gives you alot of room to play with. The problem I see is that you're essentially talking turn 4 on an optimal hand, and the goal against solidarity is turn 3

As a (rather horrible) aside, what about siding scrollable land bounce? A well placed Boomerang/Hoodwink sets Solidarity another turn behind you and may provide the extra time needed to go off... Not a earth-shattering idea by any means, but a passing thought.

Meh, I should probably be off testing 37.5 and Blackstill ... if anything pops into mind I'll make it known tonight.

Ray D 3
11-01-2005, 03:51 PM
I have a few things to say that I feel warrant the bumpage.

1. I finally got around to recording goldfishing results, and I decided I would refine it to turn 3 on the play, turn 3 on the draw, and turn 4 on the play as they are the truly significant numbers in the matches we need to goldfish. The deck is off to quite the amazing start, so I will list what I have so far:

Turn 3(P): 20/25 80%
Turn 3(D): 22/25 88%

I know it is a small sample size, but it seemed very consistant within itself (In other words, if you took 5 consecutive games from my testing, you would more than likely see exactly 4 successful attempts and one failed.), and 50 games is really nothing to scoff at.

You may notice these numbers are quite different than the old ones, but I attribute this to 4 factors: 1) Ideas Unbound is amazing. 2) I have gotten better with the deck. 3) There were only 3 High Tides maindeck in the old list. 4) As with all statistics, a small margin of error is to be expected.

In order to be safe, I would like to look at this data pessimistically, and assume a 10% margin of error (very unlikely). This leaves us with a 70/78% split, which dare I say is still quite impressive. However, in the interest of fairness let us take into consideration 2 things: 1) I was playing purely for goldfishing purposes, so some of the decisions I made would rarely be repeated in a real game. 2) Fanatic/Bolt/Jitte can screw over the snap engine. Therefore, let us subtract another 15% from both sides and see we are left at a 55/~65% split. Now, let us assume that Goblin's kills 25% of the time on turn 3, 50% of the time on turn 4, and 25% of the time on turn 5, and let us assume that Spring Tide has a 100% chance of killing by turn 4 (obviously not true, but the overcompensation in other values should more than cover it.). That leaves game 1 of the gobbos match approximately 75% in your favor. Pretty nice isn't it, considering how conservative I was in my calculations. With most Goblin players sb'ing Sirocco over more effective hate for you, game 2+3 should still be significantly in your favor. Now, I would like to remind you all of the success solidarity varients have with Landstill, as well as the decline of Solidarity and ask WHY THE HELL IS NO ONE PLAYING THIS?!

2. I may have found a tool that is half way decent in the solidarity mirror that has the added bonus of helping against Aggro Control as well as Control decks that board in hate: That tool is Defense Grid. Tell me what you think. It obviously won't make solidarity favorable, but it is something and it actually can turn aggro control from slightly unfavorable to favorable, which is quite good.

3. The goal against Solidarity is not always or even usually turn 3. You only combo turn 3 if you go first and can or if they stall on 1-2 lands. The alternative is to use your superior draw/search to find you the more powerful tools to counter-balance their utter dominance of the stack, (for example, a protected eot Turnabout).

4. Ancestral Knowledge is kind of meh. You lose card advantage and tempo, thus making it relatively bad against aggro and control as well as any hybrid there of.

5. The white splash weakened the deck to Wasteland, and was in many ways comparable to attempting to stop a bullet with a napkin [glare]



Edited By Ray D 3 on 1130883922

Deep Inside
11-01-2005, 05:26 PM
Can this deck work well without the snap engine?
In my meta, there is not a single solidarity, a lof Goblins and Landstill and a lot of Burn/sligh. Since there is no Solidarity, noone sideboards against it. Considering this, I think I'm going to play Spring Tide, if the matchup vs Goblins is really that good.(I can't play normal solidarity, as I've yet to see a single Reset in my local Shop)

Ray D 3
11-01-2005, 06:38 PM
It can certainly win without drawing Snap quite often, but Snap+Faeries is what makes turn 3's just happen (on 2 lands and through 1-2 counters I might add :D ), and I would not play without them as it often gives you the ability to go off without fear of fizzling when you see an opening. It is a vulnerability the deck has, but its sheer power and the lack of better options makes it a necessary evil in my opinion.

The deck takes a great deal of experience, a good understanding of statistics, and the ability to accurately measure what your opponent is capable of to play correctly. The number of decisions you make will leave you a great deal of room to screw up. However, your metagame is perfect for the deck to dominate, so if you are willing to put in the work, go for it. If you want help, feel free to ask. I had to guide Kryand through several games before he started to get strong results from it [glare]



Edited By Ray D 3 on 1130888359

Rastadon
11-01-2005, 10:39 PM
One of the amazing things about this deck is that it can use the only draw 7 in Legacy. That's right: Dimishing Returns. If you 3x or 4x this card, you will have better consistency and it won't crap out on you.

Ray D 3
11-01-2005, 11:03 PM
Where have you been? The deck used to run Returns. Look at the old goldfishing results and the new. See a difference? I also enjoy having a draw engine that doesn't refill my opponent's hand with counters and remove my win conditions.

t3h.sWaRm
11-01-2005, 11:44 PM
What was the list you were testing? I tried goldfishing once before but I didn't get such great results.

Ray D 3
11-01-2005, 11:51 PM
My list is on the front page.

Like I said, it takes alot of practice to get good results [glare]

mcveno1
11-02-2005, 03:08 AM
Ray what do u think about disrupt and mana short as SB choises

Mana short owns gilded light, abeyance, counterspell, red elemental blast, disk for snap :P, and it makes the high tide match up a lot easier when cast on turn 3 (upkeep)
Disrupts counters in control en high tide match ups, the match ups i fear most, and besides that it cantrips

My SB as i play it now:
1 Stroke of genius
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Brainfreeze
1 Capsize
1 Rebuild
3 Disrupt
4 Mana short
1 Mystical tutor
1 Snap

Ray D 3
11-02-2005, 12:31 PM
Disrupt won't do a whole lot of anything to be honest. Defense Grid is just far superior as it is played before going off and it is quite a bit stronger. Not to mention, it still has use in the late game. Grid also makes your opponent wait to play draw spells, as playing one early will leave them, for the most part, defenseless.

Mana Short just seemed not to work whenever I used it. If you use it on their upkeep, they will often enough drop a land and Reset into the win on your turn. The problem with using it end of turn is that they have 2 ways to respond: The first is Force of Will, and the second is win. This is why I would not recommend trying to eot Turnabout them after they have 5-6 lands out, and Mana Short is bad because unlike Turnabout, which is still golden later on, Mana Short becomes less and less useful.

The second use of Mana Short (as an Orim's Chant) also becomes problematic, as if used in response to tide, you will likely have no more defenses save a couple of forces should they combo around it, and if you let tide resolve before using it, they will have the ability to combo around it almost without question so long as they have any understanding at all of the deck.

Zirilian
12-04-2005, 08:18 AM
Ok, with Pikula's deck and Gro becoming more popular, how viably is the deck at the moment?

Homebrew has a quite fast clack and a lot of disruption, so I'm starting to wonder if this is viable at all ???.
Any suggestions on how to beat it?

Ray D 3
01-07-2006, 09:42 PM
Well, now a few things have gone right for this deck, so I feel the answer to that question will fortunately be a little different.

Deadguy is quite the bitch for this deck. However, fortunately, Deadguy seems to be seeing less and less play lately that the "OMG A BLACK DECK TOOK 2ND IN PHILLY" craze is over. I know this simply because all of the metagames I see/hear about are relatively deadguy free, and MWSPlay.net went from every other player playing it to almost no one. The match is not unwinnable, as their disruption will often leave many small openings for me to get through, or they may simply not apply enough pressure to prevent me from recovering.

As far as NQG goes, now that the masses seem to favor red, Meddling Mages will no longer be as omnipresent in gro match-ups. The match was not terribly bad with Mages to be honest, but they did warp the match-up significantly. The red match-up, however, I am happy to say is pretty damn good. Their countermagic is fairly weak in that most builds only play 6-7 hard counters, and daze can be played around without too much difficulty. They are also forced to play a bit slower than they would normally like, as them tapping out can easily result in their death. Games 2 and 3 become a bit more interesting. They gain REB and you gain Defense Grid (which is quite amazing so long as you don't play more than 1 tide). I would say that Winter Orb can be scary, but is actually much more of a double sided blade than it appears. It is still favorable games 2 and 3.

Last and certainly not least, the long hated Solidarity match-up is even more of a rarity now than ever.

Anyway, I think the metagame conditions are again favorable to pick up this deck. However, I'm sure no one will listens as usual :D

AnwarA101
01-08-2006, 10:07 PM
I played this deck at my weekly tournament a few weeks ago and found the Gro matchup to be pretty difficult. I don't think the matchup is very favorable at all. Its possible to win just not very likely. Boarding defense grid is very helpful and does help make some of their counterspells very difficult to play.

The version I played (credit belongs to ObFreely and Madzur) included Diminishing Returns and it seems to be very powerful. The ability to draw seven is just underrated. If anyone has seen Solidarity fizzle after playing a meditate isn't that just as likely to occur if one is playing Ideas Unbound? I have to admit that I haven't played the deck with Ideas Unbound but that's because I couldn't find room. Playing 3 Diminishing Returns and 3 Meditates (mainly because it can be tutored with Merchant Scroll) over Ideas Unbound. If I could find a way to run all three that might make sense perhaps 2 copies of each.

Ray D 3
01-09-2006, 12:03 PM
I played this deck at my weekly tournament a few weeks ago and found the Gro matchup to be pretty difficult. I don't think the matchup is very favorable at all. Its possible to win just not very likely. Boarding defense grid is very helpful and does help make some of their counterspells very difficult to play.

The version I played (credit belongs to ObFreely and Madzur) included Diminishing Returns and it seems to be very powerful. The ability to draw seven is just underrated. If anyone has seen Solidarity fizzle after playing a meditate isn't that just as likely to occur if one is playing Ideas Unbound? I have to admit that I haven't played the deck with Ideas Unbound but that's because I couldn't find room. Playing 3 Diminishing Returns and 3 Meditates (mainly because it can be tutored with Merchant Scroll) over Ideas Unbound. If I could find a way to run all three that might make sense perhaps 2 copies of each.
I did originally play a version with Diminishing Returns, and I had 2 major issues with it. 1) It refills their hand as well (which will be quite the bitch when free counters are flying around) and 2) There is no gurantee of what you will draw into. There were just too many times when I ripped a bunch of crap, where Ideas would let me keep what I had before in case the draws don't work out. For example, many times I would find myself choosing between Returns and Meditate for mana constraints, ultimately choosing returns and drawing into hands with no more draw. In the same situation with Ideas, there is a good chance I would find myself drawing into untapping power so I could cast both spells (Where with returns I would need to find untap and draw, here all I needed was untap.).

Forgive the rambling, but in addition, I just find Ideas to be superior because it is cheaper, has better synergy with the rest of your draw power, can be used to fix attrocious draws, doesn't remove win conditions, and doesn't shuffle your used fetch lands and weaker set-up cards back into the deck.

As far as the red NQG match-up, I am inclined to say that 1) Diminishing Returns sucks here, and 2) You are probably playing wrong (Don't take this as an attack, but most of the time it is true. People make countless mistakes they don't realize playing this deck. If you wan't an example, how often do you find yourself Scrolling/Wishing for Force of Will/Misdirection in your matches? How well can you play around daze? Do you know how to feign weakness in the stronger part of your hand [untap/draw]? How often do you Meditate eot? Under what conditions?)

Lukas Preuss
01-09-2006, 12:35 PM
I have to agree with Ray D 3... the Gro matchup seems to be quite good, if you know what you're doing. Me and Sebastian Ofner (the guy who piloted Spring Tide to a 7-2 finish on day one in Lille but had to leave before day two) did some testing with this matchup and Gro seemed to be having a hard time. :)

You have maindeck Snaps for their Meddling Mages, you play Defense Grid in the sideboard and they have to play a lot more slowly, because after turn two, they can't afford to tap out...

AnwarA101
01-10-2006, 09:24 PM
I played this deck at my weekly tournament a few weeks ago and found the Gro matchup to be pretty difficult. I don't think the matchup is very favorable at all. Its possible to win just not very likely. Boarding defense grid is very helpful and does help make some of their counterspells very difficult to play.

The version I played (credit belongs to ObFreely and Madzur) included Diminishing Returns and it seems to be very powerful. The ability to draw seven is just underrated. If anyone has seen Solidarity fizzle after playing a meditate isn't that just as likely to occur if one is playing Ideas Unbound? I have to admit that I haven't played the deck with Ideas Unbound but that's because I couldn't find room. Playing 3 Diminishing Returns and 3 Meditates (mainly because it can be tutored with Merchant Scroll) over Ideas Unbound. If I could find a way to run all three that might make sense perhaps 2 copies of each.
I did originally play a version with Diminishing Returns, and I had 2 major issues with it. 1) It refills their hand as well (which will be quite the bitch when free counters are flying around) and 2) There is no gurantee of what you will draw into. There were just too many times when I ripped a bunch of crap, where Ideas would let me keep what I had before in case the draws don't work out. For example, many times I would find myself choosing between Returns and Meditate for mana constraints, ultimately choosing returns and drawing into hands with no more draw. In the same situation with Ideas, there is a good chance I would find myself drawing into untapping power so I could cast both spells (Where with returns I would need to find untap and draw, here all I needed was untap.).

Forgive the rambling, but in addition, I just find Ideas to be superior because it is cheaper, has better synergy with the rest of your draw power, can be used to fix attrocious draws, doesn't remove win conditions, and doesn't shuffle your used fetch lands and weaker set-up cards back into the deck.

As far as the red NQG match-up, I am inclined to say that 1) Diminishing Returns sucks here, and 2) You are probably playing wrong (Don't take this as an attack, but most of the time it is true. People make countless mistakes they don't realize playing this deck. If you wan't an example, how often do you find yourself Scrolling/Wishing for Force of Will/Misdirection in your matches? How well can you play around daze? Do you know how to feign weakness in the stronger part of your hand [untap/draw]? How often do you Meditate eot? Under what conditions?)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that drawing 7 cards and not drawing what you need is likely? Isn't that just as likely with Ideas because you are only drawing 3 cards? Let's say Ideas is my main draw spell and now imagine I don't draw into enough spells to help me keep going. I think that's very possible. As oppossed to Returns where you draw 7 and somehow you don't draw into what you need. It is possible to fizzle with draw 7 but it has to be less likely than draw 3. I've found that I can just play Returns last especially after playing out all my mana production and untap effects before casting Returns.

As for the draw back of refilling my opponents hand is only relevant against a deck that plays counterspells and even then you can draw more threats than they have answers. Nothing guarantees that they will get a better 7 card hand than you especially if you have tons of mana floating.

Ray D 3
01-10-2006, 10:13 PM
I played this deck at my weekly tournament a few weeks ago and found the Gro matchup to be pretty difficult. I don't think the matchup is very favorable at all. Its possible to win just not very likely. Boarding defense grid is very helpful and does help make some of their counterspells very difficult to play.

The version I played (credit belongs to ObFreely and Madzur) included Diminishing Returns and it seems to be very powerful. The ability to draw seven is just underrated. If anyone has seen Solidarity fizzle after playing a meditate isn't that just as likely to occur if one is playing Ideas Unbound? I have to admit that I haven't played the deck with Ideas Unbound but that's because I couldn't find room. Playing 3 Diminishing Returns and 3 Meditates (mainly because it can be tutored with Merchant Scroll) over Ideas Unbound. If I could find a way to run all three that might make sense perhaps 2 copies of each.
I did originally play a version with Diminishing Returns, and I had 2 major issues with it. 1) It refills their hand as well (which will be quite the bitch when free counters are flying around) and 2) There is no gurantee of what you will draw into. There were just too many times when I ripped a bunch of crap, where Ideas would let me keep what I had before in case the draws don't work out. For example, many times I would find myself choosing between Returns and Meditate for mana constraints, ultimately choosing returns and drawing into hands with no more draw. In the same situation with Ideas, there is a good chance I would find myself drawing into untapping power so I could cast both spells (Where with returns I would need to find untap and draw, here all I needed was untap.).

Forgive the rambling, but in addition, I just find Ideas to be superior because it is cheaper, has better synergy with the rest of your draw power, can be used to fix attrocious draws, doesn't remove win conditions, and doesn't shuffle your used fetch lands and weaker set-up cards back into the deck.

As far as the red NQG match-up, I am inclined to say that 1) Diminishing Returns sucks here, and 2) You are probably playing wrong (Don't take this as an attack, but most of the time it is true. People make countless mistakes they don't realize playing this deck. If you wan't an example, how often do you find yourself Scrolling/Wishing for Force of Will/Misdirection in your matches? How well can you play around daze? Do you know how to feign weakness in the stronger part of your hand [untap/draw]? How often do you Meditate eot? Under what conditions?)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that drawing 7 cards and not drawing what you need is likely? Isn't that just as likely with Ideas because you are only drawing 3 cards? Let's say Ideas is my main draw spell and now imagine I don't draw into enough spells to help me keep going. I think that's very possible. As oppossed to Returns where you draw 7 and somehow you don't draw into what you need. It is possible to fizzle with draw 7 but it has to be less likely than draw 3. I've found that I can just play Returns last especially after playing out all my mana production and untap effects before casting Returns.

As for the draw back of refilling my opponents hand is only relevant against a deck that plays counterspells and even then you can draw more threats than they have answers. Nothing guarantees that they will get a better 7 card hand than you especially if you have tons of mana floating.

That is the problem, you often can't play out all your draw first, due to mana constraints. The problem here is that should you have 2 draw cards in hand and have to play returns, not only do you have to draw an untap card, but you have to draw another draw card. With Ideas, all you have to find is the next untap card, cast your in hand draw card, and keep going from there. I found 4 mana was rather restrictive to be my first draw card, causing me to throw out options I just didn't have the mana to cast. Ideas is simply more efficient, as its meager cost of 2 does not strain my mana usage in the early phases of going off, and in the late stages does not force me to throw out my options with no gaurantee of regaining them.

As far as refilling your opponents hand, you may have a strong edge in drawing more combo pieces than your opponent has answers, but there are also quite a few times you will find yourself with one spell in hand that absolutely must resolve and no way to protect it.

In the end, I suppose it would come down to the fact that with Returns, I fizzled significantly more than I do now with Ideas, without counting the negative interaction with countermagic, which only makes Ideas seem all the more superior.

Ray D 3
01-13-2006, 01:16 PM
Alright, I did a bit of testing and found that Disrupt is an AMAZING sb option against Deadguy. The only problem is that the card is quite narrow, needs to be run as a 3-4 of to be effective, is hard to board in, is hard to make room in the board for, and it may be a waste of time trying to improve such an awful match, as it will still be pretty damn awful.

If there are a couple of Deadguy or simillar decks running around your meta, I would certainly give it some consideration, but I don't know if I would do it for a larger event with deadguy fading off as of late.

Sorry for the double post, but for some reason it wouldn't let me edit it in.

AnwarA101
01-15-2006, 08:24 PM
I played this deck at my weekly tournament a few weeks ago and found the Gro matchup to be pretty difficult. I don't think the matchup is very favorable at all. Its possible to win just not very likely. Boarding defense grid is very helpful and does help make some of their counterspells very difficult to play.

The version I played (credit belongs to ObFreely and Madzur) included Diminishing Returns and it seems to be very powerful. The ability to draw seven is just underrated. If anyone has seen Solidarity fizzle after playing a meditate isn't that just as likely to occur if one is playing Ideas Unbound? I have to admit that I haven't played the deck with Ideas Unbound but that's because I couldn't find room. Playing 3 Diminishing Returns and 3 Meditates (mainly because it can be tutored with Merchant Scroll) over Ideas Unbound. If I could find a way to run all three that might make sense perhaps 2 copies of each.
I did originally play a version with Diminishing Returns, and I had 2 major issues with it. 1) It refills their hand as well (which will be quite the bitch when free counters are flying around) and 2) There is no gurantee of what you will draw into. There were just too many times when I ripped a bunch of crap, where Ideas would let me keep what I had before in case the draws don't work out. For example, many times I would find myself choosing between Returns and Meditate for mana constraints, ultimately choosing returns and drawing into hands with no more draw. In the same situation with Ideas, there is a good chance I would find myself drawing into untapping power so I could cast both spells (Where with returns I would need to find untap and draw, here all I needed was untap.).

Forgive the rambling, but in addition, I just find Ideas to be superior because it is cheaper, has better synergy with the rest of your draw power, can be used to fix attrocious draws, doesn't remove win conditions, and doesn't shuffle your used fetch lands and weaker set-up cards back into the deck.

As far as the red NQG match-up, I am inclined to say that 1) Diminishing Returns sucks here, and 2) You are probably playing wrong (Don't take this as an attack, but most of the time it is true. People make countless mistakes they don't realize playing this deck. If you wan't an example, how often do you find yourself Scrolling/Wishing for Force of Will/Misdirection in your matches? How well can you play around daze? Do you know how to feign weakness in the stronger part of your hand [untap/draw]? How often do you Meditate eot? Under what conditions?)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that drawing 7 cards and not drawing what you need is likely? Isn't that just as likely with Ideas because you are only drawing 3 cards? Let's say Ideas is my main draw spell and now imagine I don't draw into enough spells to help me keep going. I think that's very possible. As oppossed to Returns where you draw 7 and somehow you don't draw into what you need. It is possible to fizzle with draw 7 but it has to be less likely than draw 3. I've found that I can just play Returns last especially after playing out all my mana production and untap effects before casting Returns.

As for the draw back of refilling my opponents hand is only relevant against a deck that plays counterspells and even then you can draw more threats than they have answers. Nothing guarantees that they will get a better 7 card hand than you especially if you have tons of mana floating.

That is the problem, you often can't play out all your draw first, due to mana constraints. The problem here is that should you have 2 draw cards in hand and have to play returns, not only do you have to draw an untap card, but you have to draw another draw card. With Ideas, all you have to find is the next untap card, cast your in hand draw card, and keep going from there. I found 4 mana was rather restrictive to be my first draw card, causing me to throw out options I just didn't have the mana to cast. Ideas is simply more efficient, as its meager cost of 2 does not strain my mana usage in the early phases of going off, and in the late stages does not force me to throw out my options with no gaurantee of regaining them.

As far as refilling your opponents hand, you may have a strong edge in drawing more combo pieces than your opponent has answers, but there are also quite a few times you will find yourself with one spell in hand that absolutely must resolve and no way to protect it.

In the end, I suppose it would come down to the fact that with Returns, I fizzled significantly more than I do now with Ideas, without counting the negative interaction with countermagic, which only makes Ideas seem all the more superior.

I'm still not sure I follow the reasoning behind Ideas being better than Returns. The only thing I can follow is that Ideas can be easier to cast provided you are going off with very severe mana constraints and you are unable to cast returns and an untap effect. But if you are able to do that than isn't it better to just cast returns plus an untap effect rather than ideas and an untap effect. Also you may not need 2 draw spells if you had a returns in hand. This would refill your hand and give you the ability to keep going with the combo. Given that neither card is a guarantee of drawing what you need - how is it that Ideas is better?

Sorry for the excessive quoting. I'm not really how to quote a part of the post on the new software. I think we are the only ones posting anyway.

Lego
01-15-2006, 08:50 PM
@ Ray D 3: I hate to say it, but if there's a lot of Deadguy in your meta, play something else. That seems to be the best answer to me.

Also, has anyone tested Remand? Seems good :wink:

Slay
01-15-2006, 11:24 PM
Remand costs 2 mana. That's a damn lot, in a deck with almost entirely sorceries and goes off on turn 3.
-Slay

Ray D 3
01-16-2006, 03:35 AM
I hate to say it, but if there's a lot of Deadguy in your meta, play something else. That seems to be the best answer to me.

Well obviously ;)

Still, it is basically the only match-up I am having trouble with (with the possible exception to U/G/W Thresh).

@Remand: Disrupt/Defense Grid both outclass it in just about every way.

MattH
01-16-2006, 04:26 AM
Given that neither card is a guarantee of drawing what you need - how is it that Ideas is better?
Ideas doesn't put new Force of Wills in the opponent's hand. It also doesn't undo any smaller, non-lethal Brain Freezes you have alreayd cast.

Ray D 3
01-16-2006, 01:11 PM
Given that neither card is a guarantee of drawing what you need - how is it that Ideas is better?
Ideas doesn't put new Force of Wills in the opponent's hand. It also doesn't undo any smaller, non-lethal Brain Freezes you have alreayd cast.

Is the latter part of that ever relevant...It think not ;)

I have already listed several arguments for Ideas, so there really is little need to continue the argument without some form of rebuttal on the side of Returns.

Lego
01-16-2006, 01:26 PM
No No No, you guys are misunderstanding the Remands. You play Brain Freeze, Remand your *OWN* Brain Freeze, and play it again. Add that up. It also Cantrips, and can come in handy in a pinch.

EDIT: No maindeck Brain Freezes, so Remand --> Brain Freeze wouldn't happen often enough to be worth a single slot, let alone more... ignore my comments :)

Slay
01-16-2006, 01:44 PM
Have you read the decklist? We don't even play Brainfreeze maindeck. Your "combo" would end up costing 9 mana. For 9 mana, I could go about my usual plan of casting 18 spells and winning.

Hell, by the time I have 9 mana, I usually have 2-3 High Tides going, so I could just wish for Snap and keep on rolling. Or Meditate, and gain mad card advantage.
-Slay

Lego
01-20-2006, 10:06 PM
I played this (Ray's list, -Disrupt +Twincast) in a 9 person tourney today, just thought I'd let you know how the matchups went.

Round 1: R/G Beats
I won the die roll and opted to go first. First game he put a little pressure on with some slivers, and a bolt. I crafted my hand until fourth turn, when I had four islands in play, and the next turn he could put me at three, and I feared the bolt. High Tide, High Tide, Serum Visions into Meditate with another High Tide on top, I won.
Game 2, I knew he was boarding in Boil and Tsunami, but I knew I would just win before they mattered. He played a first turn Carpet of Flowers, so I didn't pop my fetches until I had to. I again got fourth turn double High Tide, and when he dropped the second Muscle Sliver, I comboed him out.

Round 2: Affinity
Won the die roll again, opted to play. First game he put a bunch of damage on the board, and when it looked like he would win the next turn, I easily comboed him out, no problems. I think 3 High Tides resolved, and I wished for Freeze, then Stroked him so I didn't have to pass with a lot of mana in my pool.
Game 2 I thought he might have blessings, because I saw him messing with them before the tourney. I missed my second two land drops, but luckily so did he. I finally got the third land, and then found the fourth while comboing off. He had nearly lethal on the board, and I feared a Rancor or two, so I went off. Eventually I resolved all four High Tides, got the Capsize and went infinite, Stroking him for the win. Turns out he didn't have Gaea's Blessings.

Round 3: Mono-Black Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Duress, and 4 Hymn to Tourach, plus 4 sideboard Phyrexian Negator don't spell good for me.
I lost the die roll, which wasn't fun, but he just played land, go. I played a land and Sleighted into another. He played a land and Hymned, which I Forced pitching Cloud of Faeries. He passed back, I dropped my second land and Serum Visioned into another. He Hymned away Cunning Wish and High Tide, not fun. I played a land and passed, because he had no pressure on the board. He played Phyrexian Arena, and then eventually started beating with Mishra's Factories. I took a couple turns to cantrip and get to like 5 land, then found a High Tide and a Merchant Scroll to combo off. I couldn't get all 4 High Tides, because one was in the yard, so I just got infinite storm with Capsize, and Freezed for the win.
He boarded in Phyrexian Negator, and went first turn Therapy (wiffing on High Tide), second turn Hymn (hitting Ideas Unbound, Snap), third turn Phyrexian Negator while I missed a land drop. He dropped another Negator the next turn, putting lethal damage on the board and I had to go off with only two lands in play. My hand was High Tide, Cloud of Faeries, Ideas Unbound, Ideas Unbound, Force of Will, and I had 2 Islands in play. I thought back to it, because I remembered going infinite, and this is what happened: It was 2 islands with the potential for a third drop, but I did it without ever getting the third. I had High Tide, Cloud, Ideas, Ideas, and Force in hand, and I just got way too lucky. The first Ideas got me Snap, Meditate, High Tide, and the second one got me Merchant Scroll, Meditate, Cloud. The Meditate then got me High Tide, Snap, and Cunning Wish, so I could go infinite.

Round 4: Life
I didn't actually play this deck, but I really wanted to, and almost got paired against him. The tourney was only 3 rounds.

We prize split the Top 4 and everyone scooped to me because I'm the only one who cares about my rating.

Bane of the Living
01-20-2006, 11:41 PM
Game 2, I knew he was boarding in Boil and Tsunami, but I knew I would just win before they mattered. He played a first turn Carpet of Flowers, so I didn't pop my fetches until I had to. I again got fourth turn double High Tide, and when he dropped the second Muscle Sliver, I comboed him out.


Wow Carpet of Flowers I was just thumbing that cards around for this weekend. Props!



Round 2: Affinity
Won the die roll again, opted to play. First game he put a bunch of damage on the board, and when it looked like he would win the next turn, I easily comboed him out, no problems. I think 3 High Tides resolved, and I wished for Freeze, then Stroked him so I didn't have to pass with a lot of mana in my pool.
Game 2 I thought he might have blessings, because I saw him messing with them before the tourney. I missed my second two land drops, but luckily so did he. I finally got the third land, and then found the fourth while comboing off. He had nearly lethal on the board, and I feared a Rancor or two, so I went off. Eventually I resolved all four High Tides, got the Capsize and went infinite, Stroking him for the win. Turns out he didn't have Gaea's Blessings.


It's impressive to see this deck get a win with 2 lands. Thats almost like a turn 2 Nausea kill! :lol: Who was playing rancors there? Thats my awsome affinity tech!

Lego
01-21-2006, 12:44 AM
The two land kill basically involved me being a horrible luck-sack. I wouldn't recommend trying it. I think I got like Ideas Unbound for Meditate, High Tide, Snap then that Meditate got me Meditate, Meditate, Turnabout, and another High Tide. I was a huge luck sack, and got the third land while comboing off, but it can be done :-D

As for the Affinity player, I think his name is Shane, I'll get back to you about that, because he may or may not be my ride next week. Hopefully he won't take me beating him in a bad way...

Ray D 3
01-22-2006, 08:12 PM
The two land kill basically involved me being a horrible luck-sack. I wouldn't recommend trying it. I think I got like Ideas Unbound for Meditate, High Tide, Snap then that Meditate got me Meditate, Meditate, Turnabout, and another High Tide. I was a huge luck sack, and got the third land while comboing off, but it can be done :-D

As for the Affinity player, I think his name is Shane, I'll get back to you about that, because he may or may not be my ride next week. Hopefully he won't take me beating him in a bad way...

Well, were we talking 2 lands with a potential drop left? Cause then it isn't too hard to go off at all so long as you have some form of draw and a way to untap once you get the 3rd land.

If there were no more potential drops, this is what you need to have a decent shot at going off, though you shouldn't be doing so unless you absolutely have to:

High Tide, Cloud of Faeries, Snap/Cloud of Faeries or Merchant Scroll+High Tide, Ideas Unbound/Meditate, cantrip/draw spell
(assuming they have nothing to snap)

Lego
01-22-2006, 08:25 PM
Ray:

I edited my prior post after asking the one of my friends who was there, and thinking back to it. Apparently I went infinite with only 2 lands, and never got the third, although it was 2 lands with a potential third drop. Just for fun I'll repost it here:

I had High Tide, Cloud, Ideas, Ideas, and Force in hand, and I just got way too lucky. The first Ideas got me Snap, Meditate, High Tide, and the second one got me Merchant Scroll, Meditate, Cloud. The Meditate then got me High Tide, Snap, and Cunning Wish, so I could go infinite.

Ray D 3
01-22-2006, 08:28 PM
Ray:

I edited my prior post after asking the one of my friends who was there, and thinking back to it. Apparently I went infinite with only 2 lands, and never got the third, although it was 2 lands with a potential third drop. Just for fun I'll repost it here:

I had High Tide, Cloud, Ideas, Ideas, and Force in hand, and I just got way too lucky. The first Ideas got me Snap, Meditate, High Tide, and the second one got me Merchant Scroll, Meditate, Cloud. The Meditate then got me High Tide, Snap, and Cunning Wish, so I could go infinite.

That hand had many ways of working considering you hadn't used your last land drop. It wasn't that lucky to be honest. It was just one of many possible outcomes, albeit an unlikely one considering most of the possibilities would have required a 3rd land drop. In short, your bad luck in yyour inability to find a 3rd land was cancelled out by drawing into multiple 2 land capable untap effects.

Bane of the Living
01-22-2006, 08:40 PM
Daze, Fow, counterspell ect seem to ruin this deck, unlike solidarity. That seems to be another weakness. Are you people just playing this deck over solidarity cause you cant afford resets? cause its definitly worth the 100$ a playset.

Ray D 3
01-22-2006, 08:49 PM
Daze, Fow, counterspell ect seem to ruin this deck, unlike solidarity. That seems to be another weakness. Are you people just playing this deck over solidarity cause you cant afford resets? cause its definitly worth the 100$ a playset.

Um...how? I have more draw, more untap, and tutors. Scroll is stronger than remand at winning counter wars since it finds force or another copy of the piece a turn before and does not return the counter to their hand. More draw power and more untap effects make countering either of these pieces a bad idea, and give the deck more of an ability to fight through daze. Serum Visions also increases card quality, and with 4 additional shuffle effects (that can actually be used while going off) brainstorms will be more effective. Also, the ability to cast Meditate eot when you have the time to do so, is a huge plus.

Defense Grid is a true bomb post board.

*edit*
One more thing. The ability to go off turn 3 can force some bad situations for them. For example, they need the ability to counter by your third turn. This forces them to mull agressively and avoid tapping out w/o a force as early as turn 2 if I'm playing.

Actually the above is true of many match-ups. Think leverage.

P.S. I have 6 Resets, so no, that is certainly not the reason.

Lego
01-22-2006, 08:54 PM
This deck has more draw and more untrap, as well as tutors, which Solidarity lacks. Merchant Scroll helps to fight counters by finding the pieces you need again, or by finding Forces when they are needed. Defense Grid is great out of the board, and EOT Turnabout on your opponents lands followed by untapping can be done here, where it can't be in Solidarity.

This build also has greater resiliency to hand disruption, something that tears Solidarity apart. Because of the increased redundancy and Merchant Scroll, the deck can easily go off after a couple Cabal Therapies or a couple Hymns, which is harder to do with Solidarity.

@ Ray: I agree that there were other ways to win with that hand, especially with a third drop, I just think going infinite with 2 lands is cool.

subway-guy
02-06-2006, 04:07 PM
i play spring tide and was wondering if remand was a good spot in wish board. as well as more brain frezze main deck so you do not lose to a opponent awnsering wish and needing to force:cry: and i was thinking of cutting 1 meditate main board because of the cost:eek: also i dont know if fetches are so hot because you know losing land isnt so hot it is also pain to draw 2-3 fetches.
exast is also a good wish target for a must counter.:laugh:

16x Island
______________
16 Lands

4x Cloud of Ferries
______________
4 Creatures

4x Slight of Hand
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Ideas Unbound
3x brainfreeze
3x Snap
2x Meditate
3x Cunning Wish
3x Turnabout
4x High Tide
1x force
______________
40 Other Spells

1x Brain Freeze
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Misdirection
1x exaust
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Capsize
1x Turnabout
1x Snap
1x remand
1x Stroke of Genius
3x defensive grids
________________
15 Sideboard

Lego
02-06-2006, 07:54 PM
This deck isn't Solidarity, remember that. Maindeck Brain Freeze is not needed, it's no fun to draw it mid-combo. If they counter your Wish, you've got 2 more, plus the Scrolls to get another. Game 2 you can board in the second sided Freeze if you need to. This deck doesn't need to cast two Freezes to win like Solidarity often does.

Remand is another unneeded slot in the board because of the incredible amount of mana needed. You've got to have two wishes, plus 12 mana to play Brain Freeze twice. In that situation you should already have won, or you can just wish for two Freezes.

Cutting Meditate from the main is not okay, 1 is all you need in the board, and 3 is absolutely needed. It's arguably the best draw in the deck (possibly second to Ideas). 3 Mana when going off isn't hard to do, unless you're always trying to go off on Turn 2, which you shouldn't need to be doing.

Only one Force of Will is a big mistake. As a 4-of it offers enough protection to go off under most situations, and you'll regret not having it.

Snap in the side is a wasted slot. Snap is your worst untap effect because it can be countered with creature removal, but it can also act as creature removal, taking care of pesky True Believers and Meddling Mages. You won't often find a situation when you want to wish for this over Turnabout, and I've considered upping it to 4 in the main. (EDIT: I'm leaving this in so you can understand the next couple of posts, but Slay provided good reason to leave it in the board, so forget me)

That's 14 cards in the board, and 2 Turnabouts. That must be a mistake, because it means 5 Turnabouts. If you make some of the changes I suggested, you'll have a few slots open, but there are always questionable slots anyway. Definitely add Echoing Truth (it has the added benefit of bouncing multiple Clouds if the need arises) and consider Disrupt. Probably add the 4th Defense Grid.

The fetchlands are definitely needed, and the pain shouldn't be a problem. They mean drawing less lands while comboing off, and they make your Brainstorms 100x better. They can shuffle away bad cards pre-combo, and lands mid-combo. Plus, they stave off the occasional Carpet of Flowers (okay, this has only happened once, but it's funny).

Keep up the work, and keep trying to inovate, I'm really happy that others are picking up the deck, but read what has been posted so far and you'll see why some of the changes you've made are working in the wrong direction. Don't let that dishearten you though, we need people to play, test, and question, or nothing will ever grow. Keep it up!!

Slay
02-06-2006, 08:00 PM
I've found that when you're trying to go off around Daze, Snap suddenly becomes a far superior untap spell. It is really good against Gro, but is pretty crappy against Goblins and Deadguy.
-Slay

Lego
02-06-2006, 08:08 PM
@ Slay: True, but I've found that I'd usually rather have a Cloud of Turnabout simply because Snap can be countered by non-blue decks. That said, outside of disruption, I love Cloud and Snap when going off.

Slay
02-06-2006, 08:11 PM
Another thing I forgot to mention: against Gro you can side in the 4th Snap because it's so happy fun times and you desperately want to see one against Meddling Mage ASAP.
-Slay

Lego
02-06-2006, 08:17 PM
Ooh, good point. Maybe it'll replace the Mystical Tutor in my board, which I've never wished for. Have you ever wished for Tutor? With 4 Scroll main, I've never had a reason.

subway-guy
02-06-2006, 08:31 PM
i have read all the posts but why is gro a good match they always seem to get the uperhand and contro lis not as easy as i thought because 2-3 counters is tough to fight but can be done i am going to a 1.5 touny this sunday any advice.:smile:

Slay
02-06-2006, 11:15 PM
Ooh, good point. Maybe it'll replace the Mystical Tutor in my board, which I've never wished for. Have you ever wished for Tutor? With 4 Scroll main, I've never had a reason.

Yeah, I've wished for it. It's good when you get a slow but resilient hand and you can do something like EOT turn 3 wish for Mystical, untap cast it for Tide, cast tide, lay a land and turnabout. Then win.

Honestly, I've felt no need for the Misdirection in the sideboard. It seems like when I have the ability to go wish for Misdirection, it's always too little too late, and Gro's either got 2-3 counterspells in hand, or is just about to kill you.
-Slay

Lego
02-07-2006, 01:27 AM
I always thought the Misdirection was there to board in, but I haven't played enough to use it either way. I felt like boarding it against Pikula wouldn't be a horrible idea, but I'd much rather have Disrupt. So I guess that'll go for a Snap for the Gro matchup :)

@ subway: As for the Gro matchup, it's discussed a bunch a few pages back, but I'll try to sum it up here (Ray or Slay, can you do a better job of this?) Spring Tide is a deck that can go off very early, before Gro can get Counterspell online, so they'll have Daze and Force of Will. It is possible to play around Daze by not tapping out before you cast an untap effect, and then just floating 1 throughout. Force of Will can't be played around, but you have 4 of them yourself, and you can probably play through 1 or 2 counters anyway. It's difficult to go off on turn 2 through Daze and Force, but you should never have to. You have Snaps to take care of some of their threats for a turn, and you can wish for Echoing Truth if it gets really bad. Snap also takes care of the pesky Meddling Mages. Basically, you can play through their counters and go off before they put too much pressure on you.

Out of the board you've got Defense Grid, which is another must counter. If it resolves, you've won. If not, they've used up another counter, making it easier for you to go off on Turn 3 or 4.

Test it out, you've got a much better matchup than Solidarity (although Red Thresh's creature removal becomes relevant, I usually find they don't have any land untapped on the first couple of turns when I'm wanting to go off) and it's certainly winnable. Calling it good might be a stretch though, I'd have to do a whole lot more testing.

subway-guy
02-07-2006, 07:42 AM
Hi, does anyone think the transmute mechanic could be utilized in this deck? Muddle in the Mixture is a counter spell that will help versus control as well as hit disruption elements. Also also before comboing it can tutor for Snap, Cloud of Faeries, as well as other cards.

Also does anyone think mana serverance could go in this deck?

Horrendous post cleaned up, please watch your spelling and grammar.

-braves

FakeSpam
02-07-2006, 09:29 AM
hay would the transmute mec. be any good like muddle the mixture its a counter spell war winer as well as hiting desruption and before comboing it can tutor for snap, faries, ideas and brainfreeze if you play it main decked (it helps if you go of turn 4 but is okay in mid combo.):cool: any ideas.is mana servance any good suking all land 2 maybe

oh thanks for the help soilder


I have no clue what you just said.

Lukas Preuss
02-07-2006, 10:05 AM
I think he tried to talk about Muddle the Mixture as both a tutor (for Snap, Clouds, Ideas, etc.) and a Counterspell. He mentioned Mana Severance, too, I think.

I'm not sure, though, because his punctuation seems to be a bit weird... I had to read his comment quite a few times before I started to understand something... :)



To adress Mana Severance: It's not needed in this deck. This deck doesn't run that many lands and normally it doesn't have trouble with getting mana flooded during the combo.

Obfuscate Freely
02-07-2006, 10:12 AM
Spring Tide is a deck that can go off very early, before Gro can get Counterspell online, so they'll have Daze and Force of Will.
Do you realize that doing that requires Spring Tide to go off on the 2nd turn, on the play? I severely doubt that happening a signficant amount of the time. When it is possible, winning through Force, Daze, and STP/Bolt will be very hard.

It is possible to play around Daze by not tapping out before you cast an untap effect, and then just floating 1 throughout.
Daze beats turn 2 High Tide every time.

Nightmare
02-07-2006, 10:50 AM
Daze beats turn 2 High Tide every time. Turn 3 Is bad as well, especially if backed with Force or Swords/Bolt.


It's difficult to go off on turn 2 through Daze and Force, but you should never have to... Snap also takes care of the pesky Meddling Mages. Basically, you can play through their counters and go off before they put too much pressure on you.There are 2 things wrong with this sentiment. 1) Snap is the first card you name with Mage when you know you're playing vs. Spring Tide. It gets a 2 for one in effect, because it shuts off your removal and untap at once. 2) The point of Gro is that you can't play through the counters fast enough in the face of the clock. If you try to go off quickly, Daze owns you. If you wait, Bears and Geese kill you.

Lukas Preuss
02-07-2006, 11:11 AM
1) If the Gro player names Snap, you can still go off without great difficulties. If you wait until turn 5 or 6 (Gro won't kill you that fast), mana is not the problem anymore. At this point, it doesn't matter if three of your untap spells can't be played.
2) That's what makes Gro not an autowin, that's for sure. But the matchup is not as bad as you might think, since Spring Tide CAN fight through Gro's counters before they put enough pressure on you. Sometimes (quite often), Gro doesn't have multiple FoWs by turn 5. If the Gro player holds a Daze and a FoW on turn 5, you can almost always fight through that. You just use Merchant Scroll to find something like FoW or a second High Tide (depends on which one is needed, I would tutor for High Tide most the time, though), counter/respond to the FoW and pay one mana for the Daze... And win.

Nightmare
02-07-2006, 11:17 AM
2) That's what makes Gro not an autowin, that's for sure. But the matchup is not as bad as you might think, since Spring Tide CAN fight through Gro's counters before they put enough pressure on you.It's quite possible that my experience is skewed from never having played a competent Spring Tide player (oh, I've played the matchup, but never lost). But I've never had any difficulty applying adequate pressure with a decent(2-3) counterwall for long enough to win. Again, this may be because I'm playing white gro, which has a significantly better game vs. combo than red.

Lego
02-07-2006, 11:24 AM
Let me clerify my previous statement. For the Gro power to have Counterspell (not Force or Daze, the actual spell Counterspell) online, they have to have two blue untapped, which doesn't usually happen on turn 2, as they are using it for Cantrips and Creatures. If they know the matchup, they may leave the mana open, but usually they don't, meaning that Counterspell isn't always active until turn 3 or 4, and 8 counterspells, 4 of which aren't hard, is easier to fight through.

I don't think this matchup is amazing for Spring Tide by any stretch of the imagination, but it is winnable, and certainly a lot better than many people seem to think. It requires a good bit of playskill, knowledge of the deck, and some amount of luck, but it can certainly be done.

That said, are there any new ideas for innovating the deck? I don't like Decklists to get stagnant or anything :) I'm hoping for something out of the next set, maybe something we could splash for (UG and UW Guilds in the next one) although I'm not sure I'd want to do that. We'll see.

Mad Zur
02-07-2006, 11:40 AM
High Tide is symmetrical. The Gro player would have to completely tap out in order to be unable to cast Counterspell. If he has Force and Counterspell with one Island untapped, and tries to Force the Tide, he is almost certainly playing incorrectly.

subway-guy
02-07-2006, 11:50 AM
So is Muddle the Mixture worth a spot in side board or main deck? It can fetch the stuff Merchant Scroll can't. Plus it can be a counter if needed.

I am really really sorry about my grammar i was really losing it last night:laugh:
also i do not know/if this thing has spell check.

Please familiarize yourself with the site's rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2564) and follow them. Thanks. - Zilla

Lukas Preuss
02-07-2006, 01:21 PM
so is muddle the mixture worth a spot in side board or main deck. it can fetch the stuff merchant scroll can't.

i am really really sorry about my grammar i was really losing it last night:laugh:
also i do not know/if this thing has spell check.

I don't think it's necessary, since Merchant Scroll gets you everything you need, although it doesn't get you every spell in the deck. If you need a draw spell, go for Meditate, if you want to see an untap effect, tutor for Turnabout, and so on.

Muddle the Mixture is not a bad idea, but I don't think it should replace anything in the deck, since the deck doesn't need it and it runs smooth without it. I haven't tested Muddle the Mixture, though, so this is just my assumption.


Oh, and I don't think this thing has spell check... you could write your comments in Microsoft Word before posting in this forum, if you think you need a spell check function... :)

subway-guy
02-07-2006, 05:10 PM
Oh Lego_Army_Man you want a u/g Spring Tide deck well the card pool includes but not limited to: rampant growth as well as rude awakening (not early harvest because of GG in its cost.) for more untap spells which might not be needed and the best card exploration in the u/g build to totally excel past any magic rule. I have tested it on Magic Work Station and it can be very explosive due to its massive exceleration. But can also be slowed due to the wasteland weakness(obviosly) and a less amount of cantrips. Very solid build.:laugh: and it might even improve on its control match because it is very hard for a control deck to counter two spells on the draw on the itís first turn. Just a thought


Please familiarize yourself with the site's rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2564) and follow them. Thanks. - Zilla

Lego
02-07-2006, 05:53 PM
I wasn't saying that I wanted a seperate deck (like the Heartbeat/Harvest decks in extended, which might be a different possibility) but rather hoping that Dissension would give us a couple nice U/G or U/W cards that could fit in here. Who knows, maybe something will come that makes Heartbeat Harvest good enough to play, but I wouldn't count on it.

Slay
02-07-2006, 06:07 PM
This deck is not a Heartbeat/Harvest deck, in the way that its played. Solidarity is much MUCH closer to Extended Heartbeat than this deck is. This deck is more comparable to the Desire decks of old Extended. We don't need mana ramping, the majority of our untap effects untap 2 lands. What we need is much better cantripping, as getting the Tide + Cloud or double Tide is essential to going off turn 3.

And if we need another untap effect, we would go with the Serpent dude from Saga that untaps 5 lands for 5 cost.
-Slay

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV EDIT: Sorry, I was responding to the guy that posted above you but left the reply window open when I got some dinner.

Lego
02-07-2006, 06:09 PM
I'm sorry if you misunderstood me as saying that this is anything similar to Heartbeat/Harvest. I was saying that is a completely different deck, and not that we should be going that way, or anything to that effect.

I agree that a replacement for Sleight of Hand would be great, but I think I'd be equally happy for something that I would never have though of. If any card that is printed in the next year makes the deck, I think I'll be happy :)

subway-guy
02-07-2006, 06:35 PM
I see the only real problem Spring Tide has is the fact that it might just die on its opponentís turn with out you knowing (like four Berserks in a row). I know what you are saying Lego_Army_Man and Slay that green is bad but it takes your aggro match to a whole new level it can be boarded in, wished for and tutored out it is called ĎMoments Peaceí! Need a few extra turns against Goblins or Affinity you got it. I know I am going to get burned saying that a good player knows when you are going to die but it happens if it is triple Goblin Piledriver with haste or a Giant Growth.

I have tried out Muddle the Mixture and its great! It is a counter when wanted can tutor well as said before and the best part is watching your opponents face when he/she says ďWHAT IS THAT!Ē

Ray D 3
02-08-2006, 12:37 AM
Turn 3 Is bad as well, especially if backed with Force or Swords/Bolt.

There are 2 things wrong with this sentiment. 1) Snap is the first card you name with Mage when you know you're playing vs. Spring Tide. It gets a 2 for one in effect, because it shuts off your removal and untap at once. 2) The point of Gro is that you can't play through the counters fast enough in the face of the clock. If you try to go off quickly, Daze owns you. If you wait, Bears and Geese kill you.

Obviously trying to win on turn 2 would be moronic (I suppose unless you have the god hand and they mull to 3 and drop a basic forest on turn 1 its ok...but lets just say the odds of that are not too high =P). Here is the general rule for deciding when to go off: Figure out the approx. number of counters relevant to you (Do they have CS mana up {Taking before/after tide into account, considering it is often easier to fight through a post-tide counter}? Can you pay for the Daze? Are the odds of them holding a Force AND a blue card very small?) that they should have drawn (cards seen*number of counters/60), add one, and figure out what your chances with this number are, compared to the risks of walking into their counterwall of course ;) . That would be the simplified version of the math you should be doing =P (I would assume something like 4 FoW, 3 CS, 3 Daze btw).

In other words, going off on turn 3 CAN be a strong option, but fairly often, you will be waiting it out till the turn before they kill you and maximizing your odds to be the superior course of action.

This match-up is pretty strong since, despite having disruption and a clock, there is a decent middle ground where your counters run out and I am not yet dead. I can also take advantage of any holes you should leave in your counterwall, provided I can manage to spot them/test for them when the risk is minimal.

@Naming Snap with Mage: I really hope you do =P This would be an example of trying to be overly clever and thus making a horrible play. If you shut off Snap, you are taking out 30% of my untap effects, and considering I have good control over which untap effects I will be hitting, the loss will be far from terrible, and going off not exactly difficult. If you name tide, I need an answer in order to win, and you semi-duress me as well, by forcing me to waste one of my untap effects to begin with.

@Muddle the Mixture: The cards it can get are actually fairly limited for 3(!) mana, and the counter can't stop much of the "oops I win now" situations you referred to, as well as Meddling Mages and such. It just isn't needed considering Scroll already acts as FoW 5-8 in several respects.

P.S. Damn you all for dragging me away from SC3 *shakes fist*
Hope I didn't leave too much out, and that I was somewhat coherent.

subway-guy
02-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Would a black splash for Spring Tide be a good option? It gives you Duress and Bubbling Muck witch can really help to fight a wall of counters to its flexibility is just great! Why is a High Tide not in the Wish board? It allows you to have a guarantee of High Tide on turn four and it really doesnít take anything away from the deck. I have also made an effort to main deck one Brain Freeze since it can be tutored for in a tight situation and doesnít clump up your hand (most of the time).

Thoughts!

FakeSpam
02-08-2006, 11:59 AM
Would a black splash for Spring Tide be a good option? It gives you Duress and Bubbling Muck

Bubbling Muck would not be such a great idea in spring tide. Since it is essentially an inferior high tide. While duress is a great card, it costs more mana than using force of will to protect your combo. Force of will also doesn't require you to ... uh... play black. Playing a black splash would allow you to play Tendrils for the superior kill, but that's a different deck altogether.


Why is a High Tide not in the Wish board?

Because that would suck.


I have also made an effort to main deck one Brain Freeze since it can be tutored for in a tight situation and doesnít clump up your hand (most of the time).

Knock your socks off.

While I understand how the deck runs and everything else, I'm suprized that Palinchron isn't included (even as a one-of). Palinchron/High Tide is a robust infinate mana engine that has been used successfully since Palinchron came out. It can be used to stroke people out, etc. Maybe storm is a little unneccessary for a sorcery based high tide deck.

EDIT: if this was previously mentioned, I didn't exactly read the whole thread. I'll let someone else cover my lazyness.

Lego
02-08-2006, 04:03 PM
I'm suprized that Palinchron isn't included
It was mentioned before, but we can do it again. Let's do the math with Palinchron. He costs 7, and 4 to return him, and will untap all of your lands. That means you need to create 11 mana to generate infinite storm, and 12 mana to also generate infinite mana. With 3 lands out, that means you need all 4 High Tides, with 4 or 5 lands out you need 3 High Tides, and with 6 lands out you need two High Tides. The deck usually goes off with 3 or 4 Lands in play, and in that situation, with 3 or 4 High Tides, you can already create infinite storm and infinite mana respectively with Capsize out of the board. That doesn't take up a mainboard slot, so is better.

Lukas Preuss
02-08-2006, 04:16 PM
EDIT: if this was previously mentioned, I didn't exactly read the whole thread. I'll let someone else cover my lazyness.

It is mentioned right in the first post... you know, the one that talks about card choices, and stuff..? :)

I'll just repost the part about Palinchron:

Palinchron-- Palinchron isn't in the deck for the same reason Brain Freeze isn't in the maindeck. It is useless until you've basically already won. If you have enough mana to get the Palinchron going, you don't need it. Also, the Capsize combo works a lot better as you can wish for it when needed (note that the deck's main win conditions are the draw X spells). Palinchron will be dead if he is in your hand when you need early combo pieces.

crazedloon
02-08-2006, 11:37 PM
I was fooling around with a deck similar to this i.e. sorcery speed solidarity and I was having some success with uba mask. The card by itself seams very weak and actually bad however I used cards which normally are bad due to a draw back these included breakthrough and careful study. Both of which punish the hand but with the mask out your hand should be 0. So effectively the deck plays 4 ancestral recalls (brainstorms) 4 ancestral recalls on crack (breakthrough) and a few other smaller trips but nothing that is less then 1 card for 1 mana. It was a sloppy build without much refinement but it proved fun and more consistent than one may think however it did present the problem of not winning turn 3-4 but 5 and 6 with a resolved mask is very easy.

Here is the shoddy list that I am sure can be improved on

Island x14
Flooded strand x4
Polluted delta x2

The mana:
High tide x4
Turnabout x4

The win:
Brain freeze x2
Uba mask x4

Protection/tricks:
Remand x4

Draw:
Brainstorm x4
Breakthrough x4
Careful study x4
Ideas unbound x4
Serum visions x4
Compulsive research x2

Like I said not the best list but I found it pretty constant and using uba mask may be pretty useful

Slay
02-08-2006, 11:42 PM
Any combo that averages turn 5-6 whose only protection spell is Remand is going to 0-x any tournament it sees play in.
-Slay

FakeSpam
02-09-2006, 12:17 AM
re: Palinchron

Yeah, I did read the first page or so.. I guess I missed that. Oh well. Makes sense.

subway-guy
02-09-2006, 08:16 AM
Uh ya crazedloon this deck will not work because Spring Tide is a beast on its own. It does not need to rely on a artifact to win as well Spring Tide can win on turn 5-6 really easily as Slay said it needs to be faster. But neat idea

Oh and I have done some testing with Remand in place of Slight of Hand
because a time walk that reads draw a card is very very good and I do not think it will hurt the mana base to much for what your getting.

Lego
02-11-2006, 06:18 PM
@ Subway-Guy: I would say Sleight of Hand is better in the deck because Remand won't get you a second land, or search better for that third. I'll more often keep one land hands that are amazing otherwise if they've got a couple cantrip effects in them, and Remand lowers the chance of that. Even in a two land hand I'd rather see Sleight than Remand, simply because it's got a better chance of drawing me into that third.

subway-guy
02-11-2006, 06:41 PM
I am going to a tourny tommorow is there any advice on what you think the field is like after the last big legacy event? Also I think Remand will go in board easly over disrupt as it might cost 1 more but is way more flexable.:tongue:! Any advice.

Lego
02-13-2006, 03:35 AM
Again I've got to recommend against the Remand, but in this case because Disrupt is for the Dead Guy matchup, where Remand is a lot worse. Playing first you can stop any of their 1st turn plays with Disrupt, which you can't do with Remand. It can buy you a turn, and allow you to continue to stabilize after the initial onslaught. In the same situation Remand (if it isn't pitched on turn 1) will get you from turn 2 to turn 3, where you have to offer another counter, or they will use the same spell again.

subway-guy
02-13-2006, 08:23 AM
Okay I get the point. The thing this deck lacks is losing on its opponents turn when you do NOT expect them to kill you. Also most of my ideas if not all try to make you live so you do not have to go of when you are not ready.

Lego
02-13-2006, 01:48 PM
I've never had the problem of dying when I didn't know I would. You have to have some knowledge of the metagame, but especially if you're playing a smaller tournament, this isn't very hard to do. If you know that your opponent plays Berserk and you're at 10 with 5 points of damage on the board, you might want to try to go off. If you know they don't play any creature pump and no hasty creatures and you're staring down 2 Bears at 14 life, you're probably safe for another turn or 2. If they're playing Affinity and any of Berserk, Cranial Plating, or Disicple of the Vault would mean you are dead, you might want to go off.

I would say that Remand has functionality starting on turn 3, becausee before that you want to insure your land drops. At this point you should be able to reliably go off, and if you can't, Remand shouldn't buy you the kind of time it would have had you been able to play it on Turn 2, when I would much rather be cantripping.

By all means, test it out, if you like it, keep it and let us know exactly why it is better than Disrupt. I can see it as a board slot, but let us know what you would board it in for. What matchups does it make better, and by how much? Is it worth the loss in the Dead Guy slot? Those slots in the board are pretty open, so go ahead and test this out, but play some actual games with and without, let us know if you're keeping open the mana instead of doing other stuff, how many games you win and lose after casting it, etc.

I'm willing to listen to some actual results, but if you're just going hypothetically here, I'd say it's hypothetically a bad choice.

MattH
02-13-2006, 01:56 PM
Okay I get the point. The thing this deck lacks is losing on its opponents turn when you do NOT expect them to kill you. Also most of my ideas if not all try to make you live so you do not have to go of when you are not ready.
Most of the cases where this is true are answered by Snap. Berserk, Plating, Warchief, etc. I wouldn't worry about this too much. Also, more testing usually gives me a spider sense about whether I need to go off or not.

Lego
02-13-2006, 06:32 PM
@ MattH: I agree, Snap and Turnabout mean that you can usually pass the turn when you might otherwise not want to. Testing with the deck is the best way to get this sense.

Ray D 3
02-14-2006, 12:33 PM
@Remand: Rather than repeating everyone else, I will just contribute what I feel they left out:

You are not a deck of all instants, and therefore, you do like to tap out on your turn (fairly often).

Remand will also hurt your goldfishing significantly (remember, you do not have multiple Freezes to do fun things with), and since (as has been mentioned) Remand will not be online untill you are already capable of goldfishing a good deal of the time, meaning that you are giving up a good way to answer their turn 3 forward threats (win before they become an issue) for a poor one (Remand).

Also, in regard to "oops I win" situations, Remand is not a strong call. You should be going off if the odds of you fizzling are less than the odds of your opponent being able to kill you. It is true Remand can keep you alive for a turn, and thus give you better odds, but due to the fact that fairly often, they can recast the offending spell, the fact that it will often never see use (rarely would you have Remand and NOT have FoW, Snap, etc.), and the fact that it decreases the goldfishing speed of the deck, the harm it does more than outweighs the good.

MattH
02-14-2006, 02:36 PM
Can we get a recent decklist from you, Ray? There hasn't been one in here since at least page 3. Or has nothing changed?

Slay
02-14-2006, 02:38 PM
His decklist is updated at the front page. He's not a deadbeat.
-Slay

Lego
02-16-2006, 07:01 PM
He's not a deadbeat.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that...

EDIT: Just joking, I love that guy. In a totally non-gay sort of way.

AnwarA101
03-21-2006, 11:44 PM
So awhile back Ray D3 and I had a big disagreement over Diminishing Returns and Ideas Unbound. I recently tested a version with Ideas Unbound and I have to say the results have been positive. I think it definitely makes going off when short on mana much easier. The fact that its better against Control decks is also a big plus. I still think that the power of Diminishing Returns is unmatched in Legacy, but perhaps its drawbacks do outweigh its immense power. Perhaps I was wrong indeed!

I really like this deck much better than Solidarity (maybe its a play-style issue). My main concerns about taking it into a major tournament are - Gro and Solidarity. Does anyone have any sideboarding strategies that would be helpful here? Solidarity is obviously bound to be a difficult matchup, but is there some way to rectify the situation?

Rambo
03-22-2006, 12:19 AM
YEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, someone else likes sorcery speek combo!!!!!!:smile:
Anyway, how about peek? I know it sounds horrible but it can allow you to judge when to go off. For instance if you peek at the end of solidarities turn, and you see they are ready to go off, you could turnabout them or something and go off on your turn. Just my two cents so it might be a horrible idea. Can someone post an updated list as well?
btw. That would be maindeck, and snap is awwwsome against meddling mage (screw that card:mad: )

AnwarA101
03-22-2006, 12:45 AM
YEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, someone else likes sorcery speek combo!!!!!!:smile:
Anyway, how about peek? I know it sounds horrible but it can allow you to judge when to go off. For instance if you peek at the end of solidarities turn, and you see they are ready to go off, you could turnabout them or something and go off on your turn. Just my two cents so it might be a horrible idea. Can someone post an updated list as well?
btw. That would be maindeck, and snap is awwwsome against meddling mage (screw that card:mad: )

I was a big proponent of including Peek in Solidarity. I'm not sure Peek fits in as well in Spring Tide. The first problem I have with it is that its so much worse than your 1 mana cantrips (Brainstorm and Serum Visions). The second thing is that Spring Tide is much more of a combo deck in the classic sense. While Solidarity always tries to find the right time to go off (thus the reason Peek is so useful in that deck) because it can go off at instant speed and control the stack to a large degree. Spring Tide in general wants to go off as soon as its advantageous to do so. The difference is that in Spring Tide you don't want to wait to react and you in general have the ability to go off sooner because your draw is simply better.

Lukas Preuss
03-22-2006, 05:15 AM
I have tested the Spring Tide - Solidarity matchup over and over again. Of course, Solidarity has a huge advantage in game 1, since it can go off in response to Spring Tide's combo and it can use Spring Tide's High Tides, as well.

To win against Solidarity, Spring Tide can do one of the following:

- Meditate or Turnabout at the end of Solidarity's (third or fourth, otherwise it's too late) turn. A resolved Turnabout (targeting the Solidarity players lands) is pretty nice. Problem is, it won't always resolve due to FoW. A resolved Meditate is nice, too, since in this case you will go off with like 10 or 9 cards in hand... this advantage might be able to win against Solidarity, though it's still pretty hard.
- Be careful not to play too many High Tides...
- Game 2 and 3 you bring in Defense Grids. Nice. If you manage to resolve one, you might win.
- If you're really afraid of the Solidarity matchup, test Gaea's Blessing. I know it sounds lame and it's the one card everybody that doesn't understand Solidarity is boarding against that deck, but seriously, if you can go off during your third or fourth turn (which wold be Solidarity's second or third turn), which you can in most cases, Solidarity will have a really hard time trying to play around Blessing... Personally, I would not play Gaea's Blessing, but Sebastian Ofner, who I playtest with, plays four Defense Grids and one Blessing in the sideboard to deal with Solidarity.

subway-guy
03-22-2006, 11:31 AM
I have tested ALOT Muddle the Mixture in Spring tide in place of Force. It was even. Some times Force was better at getting rid of there threat for free but Muddle has proven as a great tutor and prevents disruption with out card disadvantage. It depends on the meta game what you choose.

MattH
03-22-2006, 01:17 PM
I have tested ALOT Muddle the Mixture in Spring tide in place of Force. It was even. Some times Force was better at getting rid of there threat for free but Muddle has proven as a great tutor and prevents disruption with out card disadvantage. It depends on the meta game what you choose.
That's interesting, but I am unsure. Usually on turn two I am casting Merchant Scroll, I rarely leave the mana up. Also, Muddle can't stop Lackey, and can't stop anti-combo stuff like Pyrostatic Pillar.

One thing you could try against Threshold is to sideboard into, like, Vedalken Shackles and Morphling. It might be hard to fit those in, though, what with Cunning Wish being a real sideboard hog.

subway-guy
03-22-2006, 04:14 PM
That's interesting, but I am unsure. Usually on turn two I am casting Merchant Scroll, I rarely leave the mana up. Also, Muddle can't stop Lackey, and can't stop anti-combo stuff like Pyrostatic Pillar.

Why would you counter a lackey you can race it easly? And that is what I meant your meta it is great against W/B Pi. and goblins as it tutors. I still use force because it is so good at killing hate with out mana. I like to use Spring Tide with 8 counters after board makes the opponents hate irrelevant.
(this is just my perspective and testing:wink: .)

Also does any one think that for the W/B Pi. we side out a High Tide for a wish target to fight through there disruption.
thoughts

AnwarA101
03-22-2006, 05:38 PM
Why would you counter a lackey you can race it easly? And that is what I meant your meta it is great against W/B Pi. and goblins as it tutors. I still use force because it is so good at killing hate with out mana. I like to use Spring Tide with 8 counters after board makes the opponents hate irrelevant.
(this is just my perspective and testing:wink: .)

Also does any one think that for the W/B Pi. we side out a High Tide for a wish target to fight through there disruption.
thoughts

Siding out High Tide so that you can wish for it later doesn't seem like the best plan. I think you want to go off as soon as possible against Deadguy and that can't happen if High Tide is in the board. This deck can't generate mana without High Tide - how do you plan to win? I know that Solidarity sides in Disrupts from the board and that might be a good solution. Playing Disrupt against black decks can often be like a time walk that cantrips .

Koby
03-22-2006, 08:40 PM
Also does any one think that for the W/B Pi. we side out a High Tide for a wish target to fight through there disruption.
thoughts

You don't play Disrupt against black? *huh?*

Against BW/Pox, Disrupt and Meditate are the key to winning, just hold out with Meditate until they have almost no cards in their hand and Meditate EOT, give them a turn, then proceed with 4+ cards in hand. It's a tough matchup for sure, but I've pulled out of it with Meditate into Ideas Unbound.

I would not recommend boarding out the High Tides, as they are the only way you can even generate any amount of mana to play draw spells.

Lego
03-23-2006, 02:53 AM
Disrupt is your best plan against black based disruption. After that, it's simply to go off as soon as possible. If you use the early turns to Disrupt and protect things with Brainstorm, you should be safe enough to combo off early. High Tide is definitely needed for the early combo, especially if they manage to make you pitch one. Try Disrupt and see how that works for you.

subway-guy
03-31-2006, 08:58 AM
Infernal Tutor 1B - rare
Sorcery
Reveal a card in your hand. Search your library for a card with the same name, reveal it then put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Hellbent - If you have no cards in your hand, search your library for a card, put it into your hand then shuffle your library.


can this work in Spring Tide? do we need another tutor? is a black splash worth it and some other cards?


and disrupt is in some ways better in going of properly but remand can help trying to make a mini brain freeze for the kill and on a side note Brain storm is the hotness in this match up.

MattH
04-01-2006, 12:38 AM
This deck should never, ever have an empty hand.

Zilla
04-01-2006, 12:56 AM
Truth. Though there's nothing wrong with getting High Tide or Meditate number 2.

Lego
04-01-2006, 01:10 AM
I don't think I'd splash the black for it. That card can really probably find a place in Nausea though, where you can cast this and then pop LED for a Meditate. You're never going to be able to cast this with an empty hand because you can't play all your lands.

Derklord
04-01-2006, 07:58 AM
Truth. Though there's nothing wrong with getting High Tide or Meditate number 2.

Well, the problem is: The Tutor can't do anything Twincast can't, but Twincast is blue and has much greater options(e.g. copying an opponent's counter) and Ray choose not to use Twincast in Spring Tide... so why splash a color (and give the opponent the possibility to benefit from his Wastelands) when an even better Card isn't in the deck..!

SillyMetalGAT
04-01-2006, 08:09 AM
That card can really probably find a place in Nausea though, where you can cast this and then pop LED for a Meditate.

Or they just grab Tendrils FTW.

Ray D 3
04-01-2006, 10:40 AM
My main concerns about taking it into a major tournament are - Gro and Solidarity. Does anyone have any sideboarding strategies that would be helpful here? Solidarity is obviously bound to be a difficult matchup, but is there some way to rectify the situation?

Defense Grid is AMAZING against both.


Well, the problem is: The Tutor can't do anything Twincast can't, but Twincast is blue and has much greater options(e.g. copying an opponent's counter) and Ray choose not to use Twincast in Spring Tide... so why splash a color (and give the opponent the possibility to benefit from his Wastelands) when an even better Card isn't in the deck..!

Twincast also doesn't make you pay for it.


and disrupt is in some ways better in going of properly but remand can help trying to make a mini brain freeze for the kill

It has already been stated why that trick will never happen here, why it isn't needed, and why Remand is a poor choice in general. (I'll go update the first post shortly, so check there for why its not making the cut.)


Why would you counter a lackey you can race it easly?

Also does any one think that for the W/B Pi. we side out a High Tide for a wish target to fight through there disruption.
thoughts

You may be able to race it most of the time, but forcing lackey often buys 2-3 turns, and I'd much rather go off on turn 5-6 than 3-4 if I can, and keep in mind the fact that goblins can exploit Snap's vulnerabilities.

Siding out a tide is a bad idea. The only way you can win is by waiting for their disruption to falter leaving you a small window of opportunity in which you are capable of going off. If you have to spend an extra turn grabbing the tide to go off, you are much more likely to miss that opportunity.




That card can really probably find a place in Nausea though, where you can cast this and then pop LED for a Meditate.


Or they just grab Tendrils FTW.

Nausea has its own thread if you didn't notice ;)

Lego
04-02-2006, 07:51 PM
This question is going to take us slightly off topic, but I've been really peeved by stuff like this lately:

Why is it that people feel the need to take a streamlined deck like this one and alter it until it sucks? A friend of mine was playing Solidarity in playtesting with me last week, and he was having a hard time but really liked the deck, so I changed it into Spring Tide and he's thinking of bringing it to Syracuse. He was talking about certain things though, like Time Stop, that had absolutely no place anywhere near lists like this, and it was really annoying. I didn't even want to explain to him how bad his ideas were.

What do you do when bad players don't understand what makes a deck good?

Ray D 3
04-02-2006, 08:32 PM
What do you do when bad players don't understand what makes a deck good?

Make them test the original vs. the altered version thoroughly. Often, experimentation will give them a better feel for the deck, so just give them time.

nightspirit
04-03-2006, 08:25 AM
Hello, it's my first post here. I joined this forum because this Spirng Tide discussion going here, it really seems to be a deck that is both very good and cheap so I'll probably try to play it at the next tournament if I get all the cards. Unfortunately, I have little knowledge about it yet, so I would like to ask about proper sideboarding against the different decks. Could somebody help me?

Lego
04-03-2006, 01:08 PM
Hello, it's my first post here. I joined this forum because this Spirng Tide discussion going here, it really seems to be a deck that is both very good and cheap so I'll probably try to play it at the next tournament if I get all the cards. Unfortunately, I have little knowledge about it yet, so I would like to ask about proper sideboarding against the different decks. Could somebody help me?

You've got a wishboard, so mostly you don't want to be sideboarding at all. If you're playing Ray's SB, it looks like this:

3x Defense Grid
3x Disrupt
2x Brain Freeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Misdirection
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth

Brain Freeze, Stroke, Meditate, Turnabout, Mystical Tutor, Misdirection, Capsize, and Echoing Truth are your wish board. They won't be boarded in, except for the second Brain Freeze, which can be boarded against Solidarity. I also just like having two in the board because I've had times when I wanted to wish for 2 (although this should not be a regular occurence, and is basically a bad play.)

Disrupt comes in against Deadguy to stop their Duress and Hymn, and I've seen it come in against Threshold to win the counter war, which it can occasionally do, especially against tapped-out Forces, but this is primarily for black-based disruption in the form of discard and LD.

Defense Grid comes in against anything that plays Counterspells. This basically means Threshold, but if you encounter other decks playing the control game, this is a huge help in the matchup. This also comes in against Solidarity to shut down their Resets.

As for what to take out, I'm not entirely sure on that myself, and Ray will have to step in here, but usually I'm boarding in 3 cards, and I'll take out the less powerful cards. I often go 2 x Sleight of Hand, 1 x Turnabout, but I think most things can drop one or two. Just leave your High Tides, Merchant Scrolls, and big draws in tact, and don't take out too many untaps. And ask Ray.

Derklord
04-03-2006, 01:52 PM
I agree with both Ray D 3 and Lego!

first you have to think about what decks you are going to meet during the tournament and then what decks you need to do something against! Be sure not to forget the Sideboard of all the decks!
Normaly, most aggressive decks (weenies, burn...) are to slow to kill you bevor you're able to goldfish them. So all you have to care about against these decks is their hate they can bord in. E.g. against decks including red you have to watch out for Boil and thinks like that, so you should board in disrupts to have protection against these things.
Another kind of hate/disruption is countermagic etc., so you boardin Defense Grids against decks playing a lot of that stuff.
The third category would be decks faster then you, which are (due to the good turn 3-4 goldfishing rate) combo decks. So you can bord in cards that slow down these decks if needed: things might be Defense Grid against Solidarity (not slower, but benefits from your cards and kill you in response) and maybe Stifle or extra counters against Belcher- or Tendril-based decks.

Hope I was able to help...

Ray D 3
04-03-2006, 04:16 PM
Common side-ins/outs:

-1 Snap/+1 Echoing Truth (expecting pyroclastic pillar, chalice, etc.)
-1 Snap, -2 Sleight of Hand/+3 Defense Grid (Thresh/control)
-1 Turnabout, -2 Sleight of Hand/+3 Disrupt (black disruption)

I'm trying to rework the board/decklist a little, so this may change.

Aggro_zombies
04-07-2006, 11:33 AM
I've been playing with this deck for a little while now and I like it quite a bit...however, there's one thing I'm curious about. Why doesn't this deck use a few Manipulate Fate? There's nothing more annoying than playing Meditate and drawing three lands and another card...if you run one or two Fates you can remove lands you don't need, and the card replaces itself. It might be unnecessary, but I think I'll test it...

EDIT: Mana Severance might work too, imo...

subway-guy
04-07-2006, 03:44 PM
I have played mana servance and most of the time i would rather have a draw spell or it is just a win more card.

nightspirit
04-09-2006, 05:11 AM
I tested Spring Tide against UGW ******** (the same decklist which placed 2nd in GP:Lille) a bit (4-1 before SB and 1-3 after SB) and despite a small number of matches some things concern me deeply.

First of all, dropping Defence Grid turn 3 (the only time it's both really useful and out of Daze range) causes an inability to answer Armageddon which is gg when they have any threats on board.

Second of all, siding out Snap against ***** lowers our chance to get rid of Meddling Mage quickly, if two of them resolve naming Cunning Wish and then Snap, which is quite probable since they carry more counters it's gg again. On the other hand they are less useful when comboing out because our Fearies are going farming in response to Snap (in one game I had to waste two Snaps to rescue Cloud Of Faeries to keep comboing off and then realized that I lost my only chance to get rid of Pikula), but IMO siding them out is a wrong decision. I chose 3rd Sleight Of Hand instead.

Third of all, has anyone sided in Echoing Truth to have antoher way of bouncing Mages or Brain Freeze to make them irrelevant?

Or maybe lack of experience is the main reason of my problems? What is your gameplan vs. ********?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-09-2006, 11:09 AM
Do you realize that doing that requires Spring Tide to go off on the 2nd turn, on the play?


No, it requires them going off 1st turn on the play. Or comboing off second turn without High Tide.



Delayed response ftw. So in essence, no, you can't go off before Gro gets Counterspell online unless they honest-to-God tap out.

Lego
04-09-2006, 04:56 PM
Delayed response ftw. So in essence, no, you can't go off before Gro gets Counterspell online unless they honest-to-God tap out.

This isn't exactly true. When you're on the play, you drop a land and Serum Visions, they play a land and draw or Mongoose. You lay a land and can possibly go off on turn 2 (rare, but I've had hands where it is worth it) or a couple more draw spells. Now at this point, depending on what you've played, they're not going to know that you're not simply the mirror match, and it's quite possible for them to play a Serum Visions or Mongoose on their turn, at which point Counterspell is not online and you're facing 4 Force, 4 Daze going off on turn 3, which you can play around and through(obviously not if they have all 4 Force, but you know what I mean.)

I'd rather do that than wait until the late game, when they can have potentially a couple of Swords, a couple of Counterspells, and a couple of Forces plus some number of Meddling Mages in play.

In the end, I'll go ahead and retract most of my previous statements due to further playtesting (against opponents who actually know what they are doing.) Solidarity has a better matchup with Threshold because while they can't go off on turn 2 or 3 very easily, they can wait until they've shaped the perfect hand, which Spring Tide can't afford to do. Both matchups are quite bad, but they play very differently, and you win in different ways. Spring Tide attempts to resolve a Defense Grid and combo off as early as possible, while Solidarity is probably better suited by keeping relevant hate off the board and shaping a perfect hand. I think this has become even more true with the addition of Remand, but I'd like to hear other people's opinions on the matter, as I don't claim to be an expert with either deck.

Lukas Preuss
04-10-2006, 12:29 PM
You can't count on the surprise factor, since at a tournament with, say 60 people and seven rounds, you sitting at the top tables, any opponent (at the top tables) will know that you're not the mirror but a High Tide combo deck. If they are stupid enough, they will think you're playing Solidarity, since it seems to be a lot more popular, but that's the only surprise factor you can count on.
Of course, this might be different for a Grand Prix, but since there aren't any Legacy Grand Prixs in sight, I just assume that you're talking about 20-60 player tournaments here.


Solidarity doesn't necessarily have a better Gro matchup, since you don't need to combo off as fast as possible with Spring Tide. However, if you play the game slow, there are some cool things you can do. EOT Meditate or Turnabout are pretty strong against Gro. It is not that hard to play through Gro's counterwall if you start with 11 cards in hand. :)

I think, the Gro matchup is better for Spring Tide. Solidarity can't really bring in any relevant cards from the sideboard (maybe one Twincast or some Disrupts or Submerges, but that's it), whereas you have four cards (Defense Grids) that they *have to* counter.

Aggro_zombies
05-06-2006, 10:55 PM
I really like this deck, and I've been playing extensively with the list posted on the first page for about a month and a half now (I'm in the process of adjusting the wishboard to my meta, though). However, there is one problem I have with this deck: what do you do about Pyrostatic Pillar out of the sb in Goblins (or any other deck running red)? If you don't have a Force of Will, you basically lose. I know you can Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth, but after that you a) have to go off the same turn you use Truth and b) you have to get Cunning Wish first, and then get another one to win. While the first part is not so difficult, the second part is a bit of a bummer since most of the cards you have to find a Wish with (assuming you don't have one in hand) cost two mana or less and will therefore get you in trouble with the Pillar. Furthermore, against a deck like Goblins, the extra turns it takes for you to pull all this off allow them to win. Is there some sort of solution? BEB in the sideboard as a two- or three-of to fight it? Goblins and Pillar are fairly common in my meta, and having one come down on the opposite side of the table on turn two puts some serious brakes on my ability to win quickly.

nightspirit
05-07-2006, 03:47 PM
Maybe you should bring this Echoing Truth in after game 1? It's easier to find one with 4 Merchant Scrolls than with 3 Cunning Wishes. And when combing out it acts as a Snap to legions of your faeries so it's still useful then.

Poron
05-07-2006, 09:40 PM
i think you should just run to have 12 mana and palinchron.

4 island and 2 high tide are perfect. just run for it

infinite mana, infinite spell, you can stroke or freeze. and 2 high tide are easy to have (4 mystical tutor,4 merchant scroll) the only problem is palinchron.. someone said intuition? :look:

MattH
05-09-2006, 05:51 PM
@Pillar: Scroll up an elemental blast and whack it. BEB: now with 100% more permanent-destroying power.

@Palinchron: This is an awful, awful idea. Firstly, Mystical Tutor is garbage. Secondly, Palinchron itself is horrid, since it is 100% useless when you don't have two Tides, or four lands, etc., while the current untapping spells are not.

Ray D 3
05-21-2006, 12:27 AM
I personally just side out 1 Snap for 1 Truth w/e I play Goblins or anything else I expect pillar out of.

1x Truth, 4x Scroll, and 3x Cunning Wish (Capsize) should be enough, and I dont really want more than 2 Snaps in that match-up anyway.

Lego
05-26-2006, 10:17 PM
I personally just side out 1 Snap for 1 Truth w/e I play Goblins or anything else I expect pillar out of.

1x Truth, 4x Scroll, and 3x Cunning Wish (Capsize) should be enough, and I dont really want more than 2 Snaps in that match-up anyway.

This has worked fine for me as well. Basically whenever I'm expecting creature kill I'll side out a Snap. Mogg Fanatics can be bad for you when you're trying to bounce a Faerie [sad face]

Aggro_zombies
05-26-2006, 10:27 PM
This has worked fine for me as well. Basically whenever I'm expecting creature kill I'll side out a Snap. Mogg Fanatics can be bad for you when you're trying to bounce a Faerie [sad face]
Yeah, I've come to realize that. I usually keep the Snap in, though, since I want the untap effect and I can always use it on one of their guys (in the case of Gobs). I have tried the Echoing Truth thing and it helps a lot, but I think I want to swap out a Mystical Tutor in the SB for another Echoing Truth...that way I can board in one and have access to it eight different ways (draw it - 1, Wish for it - 3, Merchant Scroll for it - 4), so I'll almost always hit it when I need it.

*Wanders off to commence testing*

APriestOfGix
05-28-2006, 07:18 PM
my biggist problem w/ this deck is against sligh, and they bring in Scald Game 2, what the heck do i do, bouncing it usually gets me killed, cause i have to tap to much to wish out a truth or snap, it like 1R deal at least 5 damage to target opponit.

MattH
05-28-2006, 09:47 PM
1. That is why we don't strictly netdeck.
2. That is why we run some Blue Elemental Blasts when we see red decks floating around.

I think we've all learned something today.

Ray D 3
05-29-2006, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I've come to realize that. I usually keep the Snap in, though, since I want the untap effect and I can always use it on one of their guys (in the case of Gobs). I have tried the Echoing Truth thing and it helps a lot, but I think I want to swap out a Mystical Tutor in the SB for another Echoing Truth...that way I can board in one and have access to it eight different ways (draw it - 1, Wish for it - 3, Merchant Scroll for it - 4), so I'll almost always hit it when I need it.

*Wanders off to commence testing*

If you have 3 mana to cast wish, you should have 3 mana to cast Capsize, so I really don't think that would be necessary.



1. That is why we don't strictly netdeck.
2. That is why we run some Blue Elemental Blasts when we see red decks floating around.

I think we've all learned something today.

LOL
Well said.

Moby Dick
06-03-2006, 03:24 PM
what does this deck take out to board in the grids, disrupts, and freeze?

nightspirit
06-04-2006, 12:36 PM
Common side-ins/outs:

-1 Snap/+1 Echoing Truth (expecting pyroclastic pillar, chalice, etc.)
-1 Snap, -2 Sleight of Hand/+3 Defense Grid (Thresh/control)
-1 Turnabout, -2 Sleight of Hand/+3 Disrupt (black disruption)


It's written a few posts higher.

Jujuhawk
06-05-2006, 06:06 PM
Can this deck be built without FoW, Fetches, and Cunning Wish? I'm broke now after making my T2 deck.

Alfred
06-05-2006, 06:25 PM
1. That is why we don't strictly netdeck.
2. That is why we run some Blue Elemental Blasts when we see red decks floating around.

I think we've all learned something today.

Hydroblast seems better than BEB, because it can be used to improve storm-count, due to it's ability to target non-red spells and permanents.

Aggro_zombies
06-05-2006, 07:19 PM
Can this deck be built without FoW, Fetches, and Cunning Wish? I'm broke now after making my T2 deck.
Sort of, but it will be pretty lame. Fetches are in the deck to thin lands out (which you don't want to draw a lot of while comboing off) and to provide shuffle effects for Brainstorm. Wish is there to fetch Brain Freeze, because it's really not something you want to see while you're in the midst of going off, and the Wish also gives you access to a toolbox in your sb that helps if you can't get the card you need through draw power alone. There have been times where I've almost fizzled but saved myself by wishing for a Meditate / Turnabout. As for Forces...well...they aren't essential, but it's combo protection and makes the deck a lot stronger. Of all of the cards you listed, the FoW are probably the most expendable, relatively speaking.

subway-guy
06-05-2006, 08:38 PM
Can this deck be built without FoW, Fetches, and Cunning Wish? I'm broke now after making my T2 deck.

Replace FoW with muddle the mixture and that also surves as a bad cunning wish. The deck will not be as powerful but still quite strong as I went 4-2 in a 60 man tourny fighting through 3 gro.

Lego
06-06-2006, 12:14 AM
You can run the deck without Force of Will with no problem, especially in relatively underpowered metas. The point of Fetches is synergy with Brainstorm more than it is to thin your deck, so your Brainstorms will be a lot worse and you'll draw 1/4% more lands or something stupid like that. Overall it shouldn't hurt you too much, but feel out the Brainstorms there, they're probably not very good without the Fetches. You can probably play the deck without either of those.

Cunning Wish is a different story all together. You can't really play the deck without it. I suppose you could throw a couple of Brain Freezes maindeck, but you'd be losing a lot of versatility. No ability to Wish for Turnabout or Meditate, not to mention no Stroke of Genius for the win, and you're going to lose occasionally to things that you could Echoing Truth or Capsize. And you lose the ability to go infinite with Capsize, which wins a lot more games than you might think.

If you do skip out on the Cunning Wish, and you need to get rid of Force, replace it with Muddle, and throw in a couple of maindeck Brain Freezes and bring the Meditate and Turnabout back to the main. You can board the Echoing Truth and probably a Words of Wisdom to be tutored for with Merchant Scroll of Muddle post-board. I'd be tempted to include a single Capsize to Merchant Scroll up, but that's just because I'm addicted to it.

Aggro_zombies
06-06-2006, 12:51 AM
Hydroblast seems better than BEB, because it can be used to improve storm-count, due to it's ability to target non-red spells and permanents.
Sure, it can target nonred stuff, but it doesn't actually do anything to them if they aren't red. Free storm, sure, but...why not just play another draw spell?

@Lego Army Man: Well, if you drop the fetches and add Muddle the Mixture, you still have Merchant Scroll to act as a shuffle effect as well, so you have eight shuffle effects. Probably not enough for four Brainstorm, though. And I don't think Muddle the Mixture would be that hot here because it doesn't increase storm count and eats up three mana to do it. Would maindecking Mystical Tutor be a better choice? I'm just theorizing here...

Lego
06-06-2006, 01:10 AM
Would maindecking Mystical Tutor be a better choice? I'm just theorizing here...

I was purely theorizing as well. I wouldn't play without Cunning Wishes unless I absolutely had to. Mystical Tutor is a possibility, but I'd always hesitate to play lots of card disadvantage. You should probably just run 8 Merchant Scrolls and hope no one notices. AK could be fun, but I was just mentioning to Bane how I just like to draw lots of cards, and never really care what I do with them.

Aggro_zombies
06-06-2006, 01:22 AM
I wouldn't play without Cunning Wishes unless I absolutely had to.
QFT. I didn't think of AK...that might work out nicely, since you tend to see a lot of your deck when you go off, so the chances of you hitting more than one are pretty high. Of course, Cunning Wish trumps them all any day, but if you can't afford them...*shrugs*

Trading ftw? Type 2 is overrated anyway.

mogote
06-06-2006, 07:52 AM
Sure, it can target nonred stuff, but it doesn't actually do anything to them if they aren't red. Free storm, sure, but...why not just play another draw spell?
You seem to misunderstand the cards' function. Hydroblast wouldn't be played to up your storm count. Instead it would be sideboarded to fight red decks with a cheap counter/ removal spell. Unlike Blue Elemental Blast it's not dead when going off in case you don't have a target for BEB, e.g. in a match against straight burn.

Jujuhawk
06-06-2006, 04:23 PM
Yeah, I can get Wishes I think, but it's the fetches that are a bitch to get. I am a standard player, and I am just hopping into legacy, and I wanted to play combo, and this looked like the cheapest one since it doesn't need duals, etc, and no-one will trade fetches for T2 cards.

Aggro_zombies
06-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Yeah, I can get Wishes I think, but it's the fetches that are a bitch to get. I am a standard player, and I am just hopping into legacy, and I wanted to play combo, and this looked like the cheapest one since it doesn't need duals, etc, and no-one will trade fetches for T2 cards.
Well, again, the fetches aren't vital to this deck's success, but not having them makes Brainstorm a lot less sexy. They also thin your deck, because if you draw too many lands while you're going off you will run out of steam and fizzle. And what type two cards are you offering them? I might consider trading fetches for the new duals if I decide to play Extended this season.

Jujuhawk
06-06-2006, 06:14 PM
I don't have anymore trade stuff too, most of it is gone, since I quit and recfently came back. I don't have any duals, but I can get some.

Jujuhawk
06-06-2006, 06:14 PM
I don't have anymore trade stuff too, most of it is gone, since I quit and recfently came back. I don't have any duals, but I can get some.

Bongo
06-17-2006, 04:53 AM
Has Portent been tested?

Like in Threshold, I think Portent is far superior than Sleight of Hand.
If Portent was tested and excluded, what were the reasons?

Benie Bederios
06-17-2006, 06:56 AM
Has Portent been tested?

Like in Threshold, I think Portent is far superior than Sleight of Hand.
If Portent was tested and excluded, what were the reasons?

Uhm doesn't give Portent the card the next turn, so it's dead when you're going off, well not completely dead, but it doesn't cantrip. So Sleight of hand is better in this deck, if I'm correct.

subway-guy
06-27-2006, 03:40 PM
Wow this deck is still awesome. I won a mox ruby with this deck over the weekend. My changes were:
MB changes:
-4 force or will
-1 meditate
+4 muddle the mixture
+1 brain freeze
SB changes:
-3Disrupt
-1Mystical Tutor
+4 force or will
I am incredibly happy with the changes I have not lost a match to Gro yet in the last 3 tourneys.
As reasons already stated I put in muddle the mixture because it tutors for: Snap, Cloud of Faeries, Ideas Unbound and the main deck brain freeze it also can tutor for the Defense Grid in the Gro match (key) and doubles as a counter.
I put the force of will in board because I found it very lacking game one as you can basically race any deck in the format with out strong hate. After board force of will is your ace as it counters opposing hate without slowing you down.

Aggro_zombies
06-27-2006, 04:16 PM
Wow this deck is still awesome. I won a mox ruby with this deck over the weekend. My changes were:
MB changes:
-4 force or will
-1 meditate
+4 muddle the mixture
+1 brain freeze
SB changes:
-3Disrupt
-1Mystical Tutor
+4 force or will
I am incredibly happy with the changes I have not lost a match to Gro yet in the last 3 tourneys.
As reasons already stated I put in muddle the mixture because it tutors for: Snap, Cloud of Faeries, Ideas Unbound and the main deck brain freeze it also can tutor for the Defense Grid in the Gro match (key) and doubles as a counter.
I put the force of will in board because I found it very lacking game one as you can basically race any deck in the format with out strong hate. After board force of will is your ace as it counters opposing hate without slowing you down.
I was originally considering some Muddles, but the problems I have with it are the tutor ability on it doesn't increase storm count and it costs three mana. Although, one maindeck Brainfreeze reduces your reliance on Cunning Wish without cluttering up your deck...

subway-guy
06-27-2006, 04:47 PM
I have never minded paying 3 mana for muddle as most of the time you will fetch snap to produce 3+ mana or find Cloud of Faeries for the snap in your hand.

Lord Dralnu
06-30-2006, 12:11 PM
I have been testing and loving this deck, but everyone keeps asking me why play this over Solidarity? They ask what match-ups is this better in than solidarity. I like it because it has more draw power better card selection and people other than deep6er are capable of playing it efficiently. Are there any better/worse matchups for spring tide over solidarity?

subway-guy
06-30-2006, 12:28 PM
I have been testing and loving this deck, but everyone keeps asking me why play this over Solidarity? They ask what match-ups is this better in than solidarity. I like it because it has more draw power better card selection and people other than deep6er are capable of playing it efficiently. Are there any better/worse matchups for spring tide over solidarity?

Basically all your match ups increase because of Spring Tides speed and crazy tutoring power. The only match up that gets worse is solidarity wich is quite ironic.

parallax
06-30-2006, 12:39 PM
I have been testing and loving this deck, but everyone keeps asking me why play this over Solidarity? They ask what match-ups is this better in than solidarity. I like it because it has more draw power better card selection and people other than deep6er are capable of playing it efficiently. Are there any better/worse matchups for spring tide over solidarity?

deep6er is not the only person who can play Solidarity well. Actually, herbig is the only person who can play Solidarity well. deep6er is, however, the only person to have truly mastered Thunder Bluff.

Spring Tide is about a turn faster than Solidarity, which makes it better against fast decks that might win on turn 3-4 before Solidarity gets set up. Also, its stronger draw spells probably help against hand-disruption. Solidarity's instant speed makes it much better against control and hate cards (because it can go off in response to a Rule of Law instead of having to guess when it might come down.). Also, it has strategic superiority against other storm combo decks by "borrowing" the storm count.

Lego
07-01-2006, 12:06 AM
Spring Tide is about a turn faster than Solidarity, which makes it better against fast decks that might win on turn 3-4 before Solidarity gets set up. Also, its stronger draw spells probably help against hand-disruption. Solidarity's instant speed makes it much better against control and hate cards (because it can go off in response to a Rule of Law instead of having to guess when it might come down.)

Solidarity also naturally invalidates board control strategies, which Spring Tide doesn't necessarily do. A good player can usually play around instant speed removal playing Spring Tide, but Solidarity doesn't even have to worry about that, and it can occasionally become an issue.

Ray D 3
07-15-2006, 05:12 PM
Snap does create a small vulnerability to removal, but at the same time, it offers md answers to Meddling Mages and the likes, a cute way to stall, and of course, leaves the deck with more untap effects than solidarity.

Eldariel
07-15-2006, 05:37 PM
Worth noting that while there are more untap-effects, Clouds and Snaps only produce 2 mana. This creates few profound differences:
-Spring Tide wants to go off early. It doesn't benefit of playing land-go like Solidarity as only Turnabout can untap all its lands, and costing 4, it's rarely enough all by itself. The flipside is that Spring Tide is also more equipped to go off early with Ideas Unbound acting as an incredible 2-mana card, and with multiple 2-costing untap-effects.
-Spring Tide basically needs High Tide. Because its untappers only untap 2 lands, it can't just play land-go to make every one of its spells a nuclear bomb. Solidarity can play land-go vs. control to be able to generate incredible amounts of mana with any spell, and to be able to go off without High Tide. Spring Tide is at its strongest turn 2-3, blitzing under opponent's fundamental turn, Solidarity when it has lots of lands to win the game with a single Reset or Turnabout.

Rest has been said already, it has MD Mage-hate, but Mage usually will name Snap anyways as it's part of your combo-engine AND the card that can remove Mages. Spring Tide can lose to StP, Gempalm Incinerator or company occasionally (if pushed for time), making it a bit more vulnerable to creature-decks (since that's where it's likeliest to be pushed for time). And since Spring Tide can't go off at instant speed, it's far less tricky and worse against other combo.

TheDarkshineKnight
09-09-2006, 03:30 PM
Bumpage for the Spring Tide is necessary.

Morim_Brightsmoke
10-08-2006, 01:23 PM
So I came across the idea the other day of playing candelabra fo tawnos in sorcery speed high tide, and wondered why that card is not played. It is another card that plays really well both on its own as well as making turnabout better if multiples are in play. Any reasons why this shouldn't be played.

Lukas Preuss
10-08-2006, 03:01 PM
So I came across the idea the other day of playing candelabra fo tawnos in sorcery speed high tide, and wondered why that card is not played. It is another card that plays really well both on its own as well as making turnabout better if multiples are in play. Any reasons why this shouldn't be played.

1. Pithing Needle
2. The Cloud of Faeries/Snap engine is better. I tested Candelabra some time ago, and it was just way more vulnerable and inconstistant than Cloud of Faeries.

Morim_Brightsmoke
10-08-2006, 04:48 PM
1. Pithing Needle
2. The Cloud of Faeries/Snap engine is better. I tested Candelabra some time ago, and it was just way more vulnerable and inconstistant than Cloud of Faeries.

1. I can grant that assuming this is a massive switch of the ideal of the deck.

2. How is that conceivably possible at all. How can it be more vulnerable? It basically plays like a sorcery speed turnabout on your lands. Your opponent has no ability to respond with artifact destruction once it is in play before you activate it. You just activate before passing priority. The snap engine goes cast snap oh wait my creature just got swords.

I think before shooting this idea down you should better explain yourself.

Lord Dralnu
10-08-2006, 05:02 PM
If your opponant see's that candelabra is a major untap effect they will for sure side in pithing needle. It doesn't need to be on the board to be needled. A one mana spell can be played at any point before you go off and severly limit you, not to mention a single needle nullifies all four calendabras. Needle is also played in a larger amount of decks SB's than alot of removal. Even if they do have stp or bolt for your guy, that doesn't nullify every other cloud you play. You can also use snap to bounce one of thier creatures that is too big to bolt (although this doesn't help against STP). I haven't done extensive testing with calandabra, but I imagine it could be vulnnerable and seems pretty bad without high tide, at least the others are free storm. I may go ahead and test calendabra, however The untap engine isn't what makes me not want to play the deck, it is the heavy reliance on cunning wish and the (almost) auto-loss game one against solidarity.

Iranon
10-10-2006, 12:18 PM
I'm rather disaffected with Cunning Wish. 3 mana + bastardising your sideboard seems a little steep for the effect... has anyone else felt this way, and tested with alternative builds?

Simply going 3 Cunning wish -> 1 Brain Freeze, 1 Stroke of Genius, 1 Capsize doesn't look good without further changes.

Muddle the Mixture is a tutor of comparable power (even bagging Faeries when you're desperate for some) that can also counter most things you care about, at an affordable price. I like it a lot, but I doubt that this should replace Force. Which means other slots need to be shaved if the deck is to retain its tutoring power...

Could someone with more experience suggest what an optimal wish-free list would look like? If that doesn't seem too oxymoronic, that is...

AnwarA101
10-10-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm rather disaffected with Cunning Wish. 3 mana + bastardising your sideboard seems a little steep for the effect... has anyone else felt this way, and tested with alternative builds?

Simply going 3 Cunning wish -> 1 Brain Freeze, 1 Stroke of Genius, 1 Capsize doesn't look good without further changes.

Muddle the Mixture is a tutor of comparable power (even bagging Faeries when you're desperate for some) that can also counter most things you care about, at an affordable price. I like it a lot, but I doubt that this should replace Force. Which means other slots need to be shaved if the deck is to retain its tutoring power...

Could someone with more experience suggest what an optimal wish-free list would look like? If that doesn't seem too oxymoronic, that is...


The problem with Cunning Wish in this deck is that if you draw it too early against aggro or any deck where you need to speed up your goldfish its essentially a dead card because it costs so much mana to find draw or an untap effect. However, the flexibility that Cunning Wish offers during mid-combo is nothing short of amazing. It finds untap effects, draw, and allows you to stroke out your opponent in the face of Blessing.

I suggest only playing 2 Cunning Wishes in this deck. This drops the percentage chances of you drawing it when you don't want it in the early game. You also have the luxury of tutoring it with Merchant Scroll in the middle of the combo when you will definitely want this card. Play 2 wishes you'll be much happier.

despo
10-10-2006, 04:04 PM
Has anyone tried to play 1 echoing truth main? You can tutor for it when necessary.
- It can get rid of multiple meddling mages (one probably naming cunning wish anyway) at the same time.
- It can generate mana by bouncing cloud of faeries when you are out of other untap effects.
- It can buy you another turn(when you're lucky maybe even two) against aggro.

Lord Dralnu
10-11-2006, 05:51 PM
I suggest only playing 2 Cunning Wishes in this deck. This drops the percentage chances of you drawing it when you don't want it in the early game. You also have the luxury of tutoring it with Merchant Scroll in the middle of the combo when you will definitely want this card. Play 2 wishes you'll be much happier.

I think I'll try it out as well. Do you think we should run one brainfreeze maindeck at this point since we will be down one wish? It most likely isn't a bad idea either way, becoming less dependent on wish is usually a good thing. Becoming more dependent on scroll on the other hand might not be so good. I'm not sure whether it's a good call either way.

AnwarA101
10-11-2006, 06:28 PM
I think I'll try it out as well. Do you think we should run one brainfreeze maindeck at this point since we will be down one wish? It most likely isn't a bad idea either way, becoming less dependent on wish is usually a good thing. Becoming more dependent on scroll on the other hand might not be so good. I'm not sure whether it's a good call either way.

I've always run 1 main deck Brain Freeze. I don't see any reason not to run it. Playing a deck without a main deck win condition is highly suspect and makes you even more reliant on Cunning Wish which is exactly what you are trying to prevent.

Iranon
10-12-2006, 05:29 AM
After some fiddling around, I'm moderately happy with a wish-free version:

-3 cunning wish
-1 force of will
-1 turnabout
-1 meditate

+2 muddle the mixture
+1 brain freeze
+1 stroke of genius
+1 echoing truth
+1 capsize



It doesn't depend on any single card but high tide and has easier access to bounce, which I found a great boon. Turn 2 and 3 wins also seem to happen with slightly greater frequency. It is worth noting, however, that slowly building up a God hand and going off through multiple counters becomes more difficult.

***

I think 3 mana to tutor for a card is a lot in this deck and the main point of the changes was not relying on one, but it struck me that Muddle the Mixture would be twice as good as Cunning Wish ever was. All it needs is one little more change:

Stroke of Genius -> Braingeyser.

In this case I definitely want 4 MtM and possibly 2 Braingeysers (One for me, one for them). The only things left I might cut, however, are cantrips and Merchant Scrolls. Both are helpful in finding High Tide, which is as high a priority as ever. Constructive criticism and suggestions (that don't include Cunning Wish!) would be very much appreciated.

GreenOne
10-12-2006, 08:19 AM
[QUOTE=Iranon;94383]
-3 cunning wish
-1 force of will
-1 turnabout
-1 meditate

+2 muddle the mixture
+1 brain freeze
+1 stroke of genius
+1 echoing truth
+1 capsize

[QUOTE]

I'm not sure why are you playing 2 MD bounce spells? Are there many occasions when you want to bounce something AND go infinite during G1?
I'd cut echoing truth for turnabout.
What is your SB like?

Iranon
10-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Yes, that is a lot of bounce. I have my reasons, though: MD Meddling Mage worries me and both greatly help the chances of winning on only two lands: Capsize needs a bunch of Tides and a Faerie (infinite loop), Echoing Truth needs a bunch of Faeries and a Tide (ultra-efficient mana generator).

I'd probably cut Capsize first if I decided this is too much (and I sort of want the 4th Force back), since it's pretty much a one-trick pony that is suboptimal otherwise. The infinite chain requires a lot to pull off, and usually isn't necessary when I can do it. I stil like the option though.

***

Sideboard is pretty basic at the moment:

4 Disrupt
4 Defensive Grid
4 Trade Secrets (admittedly narrow, but quite effective so far)
3 Divert (might become Misdirection)

Disrupt and Divert/Misdirection allow me to hate out decks with a heavy land destruction/discard plan. Trade secrets shores up match-ups against lightning-fast decks that lack disruptive elements.

GreenOne
10-12-2006, 01:03 PM
MD Meddling Mage worries me

You already have 3 Snaps, 4 MD tutors, 3 counters and 1 MD bounce. I feel like 1 MD bounce is enough.


both greatly help the chances of winning on only two lands

You really don't need to go off so fast. And combo turn 2 fizzles much.
Vs Iggypop (fastest combo in the format) you can tutor up a force on turn 2 and stall for a turn or two.


Disrupt and Divert/Misdirection allow me to hate out decks with a heavy land destruction/discard plan.

Discard-heavy decks are not so present to justify 7 slots in side.
However it depends on your meta.


Trade secrets shores up match-ups against lightning-fast decks that lack disruptive elements.

Mmmh... such as?
Goblins - don't you already race it?
Belcher - isn't better to have a counterspell?
Maybe Nausea.. dunno. What are these decks? Aren't these decks packing hate G2 and G3 (the matches when you side Trade Secrets in)?


My suggestion for side is something like:

4 Defensive Grid
4 Disrupt
4 Divert/Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth (or capsize. The one you remove from MD)
1 gigadrowse (solidarity and control matchup)
1 Hydroblast (Vs goblins is a must. better to counter/destroy Pillar than bounce it. And counters REB too)

And to reduce the number of Disrupts or Diverts if you feel the need for more singletons.

Iranon
10-12-2006, 04:33 PM
Sideboard issues:

I considered Trade secrets against the likes of Goblins, Burn and Affinity, but you're right, probably not good at all. Having the potential to be marginally better than the already powerful draw we have vs. giving them the option to draw into every piece of hate isn't worth it. Especially not since we don't really need any sideboarding against them.

Gigadrowse sounds interesting. I haven't tried this; I did consider putting the missing Turnabouts in the board for similar purposes. I don't know whether I can get away with strict hate above and beyond 4 Defensive Grids. I know budget-conscious players use them to good effect though, and maybe this is a good way to make use of my additional sideboard space.
(p.s: If this works: Wrecking Solidarity is worth any effort. I don't care how many board slots I have to vacate to let me do this consistently. The pleasure of wiping the smug grin off their faces would compensate me for any shortcomings in other match-ups). That suggestion was more than helpful - thank you!

Blasts (or Stifles, depending on the meta) are always an option for vacant board places... no objections there. But it's important to remember one's priorities - see the above.

I'll fiddle around with 4 Divert/4 Disrupt/4 Defensive Grid/3 Gigadrowse OR 2 Turnabouts/1 open (Capsize if removed from Main). Should turn the tables on quite a few decks whose players believe Spring Tide is easy pickings.

***

As to winning on 2 lands, this isn't a big deal and usually not worth trying. Echoing Truth offers a lot though - cost-effective unrestricted bounce, can randomly buy several turns against aggro, can end all your mana concerns late into the combo (somewhat conditional). I wouldn't want to see more than one but I rarely mind drawing it, and I am occasionally ecstatic that I can tutor/dig for it (as opposed to another unrestricted bounce; one of those is practically required). I also have 2 additional ways of tutoring it compared to Capsize and am strongly considering to increase them to 4.

Capsize is a lot more limited, but an infinite loop is often the obvious choice to end the game (ie the one that is guaranteed to mean 'answer this or lose', without depending on random draws). The requirements are quite steep though, so I guess I often have plenty to work with to kill the same turn using a different method. Perhaps I've just been lazy instead of making the correct play - cutting any unnecessary card helps.

***

For the Maindeck:

Any comments about the thoughts concerning Braingeyser? That would look something along the lines of

-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Turnabout
-1 Meditate
-2 ??

+4 Muddle the Mixture
+1 Braingeyser
+1 Brain Freeze
+1 Echoing Truth

where the undecided cuts would likely be cantrips or Force of Will (while Muddle the Mixture takes some heat off the Merchant Scrolls, I'd be reluctant to cut anything that can guarantee me a High Tide). If we can get away with cutting Cantrips (and thus retain the full set of FoWs), this should be an utter nightmare to many after sideboarding: All the relevant capabilities of MUC against decks that rely on targeted spells coupled with a 3.5 turn clock.

That version would have less drawbacks over the accepted build (the one with Stroke of Genius has a better chance to win turn 2 or 3, but is less likely to plow through troublesome instants later) and gains the ability to hate out whatever concerns you most. Before sideboarding, you have a stronger permission suite instead of a better variety in answers - close enough to make little difference, compared to the ton of sideboard options that you gain by the change.

GreenOne
10-12-2006, 09:15 PM
(p.s: If this works: Wrecking Solidarity is worth any effort. I don't care how many board slots I have to vacate to let me do this consistently. The pleasure of wiping the smug grin off their faces would compensate me for any shortcomings in other match-ups).


Hey man, i could be the man on the other side of the table (i'm usually a solidarity player), so don't gain too much pleasure doing it, right? :tongue:
However, don't be too confident in Gigadrowse. It helps a lot, but they can respond floating mana and turnabout.. (however, it's a good weapon)



Any comments about the thoughts concerning Braingeyser?


Braingeyser is good because is tutorable with Muddle in the Mixture.
The only disadvantage i can see is that it cannot be cast in response to a blessing trigger. It's an efficient choice only when planning the 53 to infinite Geyser..




-2 ??
...
+4 Muddle the Mixture
...
All the relevant capabilities of MUC against decks that rely on targeted spells coupled with a 3.5 turn clock.


There's a strong difference between "counter target spell" and "counter istant or sorcery", that is why this deck has NOT all the relevant capabilities of MUC.
4 muddle is too much: it's a good tutor but when tutoring it doesn't add to the storm and a nice counter but can't counter everything. The deck already has 3/4 Forces. I'd play only 2 Muddles, without removing nothing from MD.

koeka
10-18-2006, 07:14 AM
hi there, I'm going to play spring tide this sunday at the ducht open legacy championships, but I don't know wich version of the deck is better maybe you can help me.

Muddle fow Tide

4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Meditate
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
3 Turnabout
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Force of Will
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Brain Freeze
1 Braingeyser
1 Capsize
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
9 Island

Sideboard:
1 Gigadrowse
1 Echoing Truth
4 Defense Grid
4 Dirupt
3 Midirection/Divert
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Brain Freeze

Cunning Wish version:

3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Meditate
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Brain Freeze
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
9 Island
1 Chain of Vapor
Sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Capsize
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
3 Defense Grid
1 Hurkyll's Recall
2 Brain Freeze
2 Hydroblast


It's my first big legacy tourny, I only played at our random legacy tourneys with loads of scrubby decks.
I think there are going to be some B/W, some solidarity, and the obv gobs and *****
Any comments on wich list I should play and what I should change to them?

greetze, Derk

Iranon
10-18-2006, 06:09 PM
@ koeka: This is obviously coloured by personal preference, but with I would run the Muddle the Mixture version, especially if you expect a lot of B/W. Room for hate in the board can go a long way there. A few observations

1) Is there any particular reason why you're running Hydroblasts in the Wish version and not in the Muddle one?

2) Are you comfortable with 15 lands? The less you draw mid-combo, the better obviously. However, 15 seemed pushing it for me. (more mulligans, more being forced to use hand refinement only to get land).

3) I prefer Echoing Truth in the main over Capsize, but your current set-up is a nice compromise that conserves slots while granting the ability to play around Blessings without breaking a sweat (not sure if anyone maindecks them in your meta).

The list definitely looks solid - the best of luck in the tournament.




@GreenOne: All in good fun... the evil cackle is just for show, honest! And of course, I was getting slightly carried away with the thought of hot sexy counter potential from hell; 2 MtM are indeed enough.

At the moment, I run both Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius (the former in the Capsize Slot). Granted, occasionally I wish I had another Meditate instead of an expensive draw spell. However, with 8 ways to get one of these, hands rich in mana but lacking in draw become a lot more keepable.

I'm running almost exactly the sideboard you suggested with one tiny change: 1 Divert -> Peek. I'd actually like to see that more often (without blowing a Scroll on it which would be rather ridiculous) but multiples are a little sucky.

koeka
10-19-2006, 03:35 AM
In my opinion the hydro/beb's arent really that good and the wish version might pack to many of them 1 should be enough actually since the gobs matchup is already pretty good and you have bounce if they decide to pack something like pillar or other tech against you.
Maybe youre right about the land count but so far i'm pretty satisfied with it, maybe upping it to 16 lands? I'm gonna test something like -1 Braingeyser -1 Capsize +1 island +1 echoing Truth and put the capsize braingeyser combo in the side instead of the truth and the gigadrowse wich isnt really needed with already 4 disrupts 4 grids and 3 misdirection or divert.
Wich one is actually better in a varied meta divert or misdirection?

al the great
10-30-2006, 09:31 AM
Another alternative to Echoing Truth is Snapback. I personally like Snapback because of its free mana cost. I play tested it a bit and it's decent enough to me.

al the great
11-02-2006, 11:12 AM
So is Remand a must for this deck over Forces??

mikekelley
11-02-2006, 05:25 PM
I like keeping forces in. It's nice to have something to counter their big threats with early. Maybe drop 1 or 2 for remand.

I've been doing some testing with this deck, and I love it.

HdH_Cthulhu
11-03-2006, 08:29 PM
what is with words of widsom?

it is a decent draw speel and with after brainfreezing him you win in the same turn not in his upkeep...

al the great
11-08-2006, 04:52 PM
OK guys I went and cut the 3x Force of Wills and put in 3x Remand and IMO it's working better now. I think Remand combos better and I didn't even realize that you can Remand Brainfreeze and freeze again lol.

HdH_Cthulhu
11-08-2006, 05:48 PM
does this work!? thats insane!
then remand should be a 4 of!

AnwarA101
11-08-2006, 09:30 PM
Remand seems especially poor in this deck. Since you usually want to play Merchant Scroll on turn 2 or some other manipulation spell like Serum Visions or even Sleight of Hand. You don't really want to play control in any matchup. When you go off with this deck you shouldn't have to Remand a Brain Freeze because you will being drawing cards that draw you cards. The draw in this deck is much better than Solidarity and it doesn't need to resort to Remand -> Brain Freeze.

al the great
11-09-2006, 02:58 AM
So far for me the Remands have helped me more than it has hurt me.

Just fyi I got 1st tonight for weekly legacy using this deck.

koeka
11-09-2006, 08:37 AM
remand yust sucks in spring tide.
You really always want to play merchant scroll turn 2 if youre stil missing a piece to combo out.
The times that you already have the parts you yust want to play cantrips, this is not a control deck its combo, you cant wait like solidarity can and you have a better draw engine wich creates much higher storm counts so you dont need the remand/freeze

al the great
11-09-2006, 12:21 PM
I back tracked and read some of the comments made about Remand. Personally I still like Remand in this deck. Last night it saved me 1 game and testing it out today it made me keep going instead of fizzle out.

What I do agree with is that Remand early game is some what useless especially for 2 mana but mid game IMO can be really helpful.

Lego
11-09-2006, 01:25 PM
The thing is that this deck should never be hitting midgame. Solidarity wants to wait as long as possible before comboing out, and Remand helps with this plan by stalling your opponent for a turn. It also helps while comboing out because you can Remand a Brain Freeze. Spring Tide wants to win as quickly as possible, so doesn't care too much about slowing the opponent down. There aren't too many decks in Legacy that have a fundamental turn 3, and that's how Spring Tide wins. Merchant Scroll helps you to maintain a fundamental turn of 3. Additionally, Spring Tide plays no maindeck Brain Freezes, so Remand becomes less useful in that aspect.

Iranon
11-09-2006, 01:59 PM
From my experience, Spring Tide has enough powerful and versatile cards available that including cute tricks 'in case you need them' actually decreases resilency.

With the raw untap- and draw-power, the line between fizzling totally (beyond the ability of Brain Freeze + Remand to save the day) and going off all the way (draw most of your library, then make them draw all of theirs) is very fine. The chance of something in between seems to be smaller than the chance of fizzling because you draw too many dead-ish cards.

I've been most happy with the stripped-down version (Echoing Truth and 2 X-draws in the main. No Wishes, no Freeze); the lack of access to some of the cuter tricks turned out trivial in practice.

al the great
11-11-2006, 10:08 AM
I just edited mine and instead of 3x Wishes I'm down to 1 which I think by the end of the day I might replace it with a 2 X-draw card.

Also I just wanted to say that my 1x Snapback works pretty well with Faeries.
----

Just fyi some random kid had 4x foil Brainfreezes at my local shop and I instantly traded it off him. Wheeeeeee...

TheRock
11-11-2006, 12:23 PM
Cunning Wish is a card that only seems to be the worst card in your deck. If you have the mana to really use a massive X-draw spell, then paying three more for it isn't going to change that much. But Cunning Wish being as versatile as it is becomes very powerful in games were you don't have to win turn three.

On a similar note, Wipe Away is forcing many control players to counter Cunning Wish, and since this deck needs to out-draw and out-threat those opponents, why would you remove two threats?

Iranon
11-11-2006, 04:23 PM
Disclaimer: I try to optimise my decklist for speed. If the match-up warrants it, I will slow play but I won't tweak my decklist in that direction. If that was a priority, I'd play Solidarity.

***

If mana is no issue, Cunning Wish is lovely. On the other hand, so are x-draws. I understand the convenience of a tutor for the occasional exotic answer that you never want to actually draw; I think other things deserve priority over that though. That capability of Wish is also offset partially by the need to cripple your Board.

I pretty much want to see 2 draw-x every game and Echoing Truth is both an excellent answer to troublesome permanents when needed and a better mana producer late-combo than anything usually run in the main. Let me elaborate in a short analysis of available tools for the mana engine:

Cloud of Faeries is the only cheap and unconditional untapping effect. All others have the chance to be more effective and also serve a secondary role, either bouncing problematic permanents or mana denial. Let us just consider their role as a mana generator for the moment for now.
In the format of 'Minimum Requirements other than a Tide / Requirements to be better than a Cloud / Maximum mana yield':

Cloud of Faeries: 2 Mana / not applicable / 8
Snap: 2 Mana, 1 Creature anywhere / 1 Cloud / 16
Turnabout: 4 Mana / 3 Lands+ / 16
Echoing Truth: 4 Mana, 1 Cloud+/ 2 Clouds+ / 30
Capsize: 8 Mana, 4 High Tide, 1 Cloud / <-- / infinite

(A + denotes that either multiple High Tides or more of the given condition are needed to reach the specified margin of usefulness. For Turnabout, I assumed 4 lands in play; if you think 21 would be a more realistic ceiling I won't argue)

The requirements for Echoing Truth to kick some arse are not all that steep for the potential reward (Capize is too much of a win-more. If I resolved 4 High Tides, have 8 mana to spare and end up losing, I likely deserve it), and I feel it is definitely maindeck material. Probably not in multiples because the requirements are non-trivial, but the single copy helped me out considerably.