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ElvenTitz
11-05-2005, 03:10 PM
We ran a small local tourney today. My Rabid Wombat lost to FEB in quaterfinals again (damn it, again!)
here is teh top :
1st FEB
2nd Gobbos
3rd Landstill
4th Rabid Wombat
No idea what to do abat four meddling mages naming : sword, humility, wrath and vengance and tradiwind raider (it runs two copys of this guys)
Guys... no seriouzly, help...

Here is the FEB that i need to beat ran by Konstantin Gordienko:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Chrome Mox
1 Bayou
2 City of Brass
1 Volcanic Island
1 Gemstone Mine

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
3 Wall of Roots
2 Tradewind Rider
1 Anger
4 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis
4 Force of Will
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
(4 flashfires in sideboard)
Heres my list of Wombat :
:
17 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Kor Haven
4 Secluded Steppe
3 Humility
3 Wrath of God
3 Wing Shards
2 Rune of Protection: Red
2 Akroma's Vengence
4 Decree of Justice
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Renewed Faith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Scrabbling Claws
4 Abeyance
(3 Sacred Ground in sideboard)
the only problem - Sacred Ground is useless, he just naturalizes sacred ground eot and goes off flashfires on his own turn.

LinkXwing
11-05-2005, 04:39 PM
His manabase is a great big steaming pile of ass. If you are that concerned about the matchup, run 4x Wasteland maindeck. Take out Scrabbling Claws for the superiour Phyrexian Furnace and change 2x Vengence and a renewed faith for 3xDisenchant.

Plus if you are losing THAT much to FEB A) yout oppenent is drawing the nuts 100% of games B) You're opponent is cheating or C) You're playing Wombat wrong and using your removal on the wrong things at the wrong time.

A) and B) we can't help with, as for C), there have been about 10 people in this thread that have offered to play you online with Apprentice or MWS and teach you how to correctly play the matchup.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-05-2005, 10:26 PM
Link is correct. How is he getting 4x Mage out anyway? Even with Survival in hand every game, this process still takes many turns and requires a number of creatures in hand if you shut down Squee with Claws. He can't possibly get out the first 3 before you get to four mana. What are you doing, holding back?

As a side note, how is he getting 4x Meddling Mage, 2x Tradewind, and having a Blue card in hand to pitch to Force every game with only 18 fucking Blue cards in the deck?
Alternately, if it's such a fucking problem,you could try running Rout, or replacing Wing Shards with Disenchants. Run 4x Phyrexian Furnace and 4x Scrabbling Claws. Fuck, splash Blue for Acid Rain. Run Dust Bowl. Do something.

dre4m
11-05-2005, 11:09 PM
You could also check his lap and/or sleeves for his other six Mages.

It also sounds like you may be being hit with the omnipresent curse of drawing a card he names with Mage right after he puts down the Mage naming it. Rout might actually be a viable option in this situation, especially if this is happening late enough in the game to allow him to set down four mages.

Maindeck wasteland will also tear him apart, as would Dust Bowl, if you really want to go that far into hatred for the archtype.

Alvin6688
11-05-2005, 11:31 PM
Hey guys, have you tried the splash for Life of the Loam? It gives you a nice, continuous draw engine that fits with the rythmn of the deck. It shouldn't hurt the mana base much at all, since you can run 4 Windswept Heaths, 2 Forests, and 1 Savannah. Of course you'd need 4 Secluded Steppe and maybe 1 Tranquil Thicket, but I don't think MWC worries too much about CIPT lands, since it's such a slow-rolling deck. Just an idea.

ElvenTitz
11-06-2005, 02:05 AM
@IBA
Well, i manage to steal some games when he dosnt draw nuts, he actually cant win pre sideboard, but after sb, he will win always. Hes very lucky guy, i shuffle his deck evry time, but he manage somehow to draw card he needs (example ... no counter in hand, gonna lose if spell resolves, gonna win if it denied, cast brainstorm... draw force of will and a blue card, etc, its very hard to fight against person with such luck). @dre4ms
I've been trying to play against him with my other deck, the burn, with 4 wastelands maindeck. They help, but i dont see, how they tear him apart ? He still get the right mana fix with fetches, birds and wall of roots, and still lay meddling mages and evrything he wants, so i use wastelands not to destroy his lands, but to flood his grave, and this is still not an answer.
So, i usually win game 1, then i gotta face naturalize + flashfires + tonn of meddling mages and tradwind raider. Sometimes i lose even game 1, when he sets 4 meddling mage and tradewind raider.
I could complitly hate him out, but if i do so, i could probably lose to goblins, land still etc, wich im currently winning. So complite-hate is not an answer. However disenchants in main would cripple almost evry deck in my meta, expect solidarity (wich rarly plays, so i dont care about it... yet).
Can you suggest a decklist for me, if it not so hard.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-06-2005, 05:07 AM
....you usually win game 1.


Sigh.

Then do what he's doing. Dedicate eight cards in the sideboard to the matchup. Try something like;

3x Karmic Justice
3x Sacred Ground
3x Disenchant
3x Illumination


And then three other slots. Hell, if it's the only other deck you're losing to, you don't care as much about sideboarding against the others.



Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1131387061

Jwo
11-07-2005, 01:03 PM
I thought discussion about the FEB match-up was stopped. It bothers me to devote so much energy to one person's random "bad" match-up and "lucky" opponent. As we approach Grand Prix: Philadelphia, what metagame choices are we making. The biggest dilemma for me right now is...

3x Mind Stone vs. 3x Gilded Light in the main deck.

The stone lets me Wrath of God, Humility, and up Wing Shards storm count earlier. Overall, it is a fine choice against aggresive decks. However, we all know that MWC has a tough time against Combo game one, and Gilded Light makes that auto-loss into about a 50/50 match-up when combined with MD Abeyance.

So what are people's changes and modifications (both MD and SB) to deal with the Grand Prix "metagame," if we can even call it that.

(Note: I played 3x Glowrider in my side in a tournament last week and it was "the nuts" against Belcher and Trix. Do other people still use this?)

Thanks,

Jwo

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-07-2005, 01:15 PM
Unless you see a lot of Black in your area, I don't think Gilded Light is worth it. I certainly wouldn't maindeck it at the GP, and other sideboard options are more powerful against combo.... or even Sui for that matter (Karma for teh win!). Combo comes in two flavors; robust and fragile. Fragile combo pretty much universally eats it to one of three cards; Abeyance, Disenchant, or Swords to Plowshares (and often Humility). Robust combo wins anyway because of the lack of a clock (which is why for the GP I plan on running 4x Glowrider and 2x Rule fo Law instead of the 3 and 3 I posted earlier, by the way) on your part. Gilded Light doesn't do much you don't do already either way. Abeyance already kicks decks like Iggy Pop (while well named) in the junk, and it doesn't do shit all to Solidarity except against a bad opponent. When weighed against the benefits Mindstone legitimately gives you, I'd always choose the Stone (although my current build is running neither).

Jwo
11-07-2005, 03:17 PM
@IBA: Would you mind Private Messaging or posting a copy of your current list. I believe that you just run bandage in place of the cards mentioned prior, but maybe you have changed it.

Also, I am happy to see your support of the Glowrider. It is good stuff.

Additionally, against RGSA, Humility seems like the trump card, although I have only been able to test against it slightly on MWS. Do you have any comments about this match-up? About ATS?

Thanks,

Jwo

midnightAce
11-07-2005, 03:56 PM
Survival based decks, with the exception of RGSA, has been missing in action for the last few month. Well, that's my impression of it anyways. Personally, I like Di's new ATS list, but I guess very few people will have the guts to take that the GP.

As for the match up, it's generally in Wombat's favour. Use StP and Wrath often to delay their board development and Abeyance your Humility into play, that will generally conclude game one. If you are running the 4 x Furnace version, then the game is a joke.

Depending on your board, everything from the 4th Humility or Vengeance will generally make the game go very smooth.

ElvenTitz
11-07-2005, 04:18 PM
@midnightAce
Lies, few meddling mages found with surfit will kill you without any problems for ATS player. You bash me out of understanding true edges of this matchup. If ATS player will make a tiny effort of custumaizing his deck (eq - adding meddling mages) and you simple stop win. Just stop. Theres nothing you can do about that, expect to hope he wont topdeck anything, and to hope on this is just stupid. Meddling mage on STP, one on wrath and one on humility with a single counter in his deck is auto-loss for you. He will just bounce off evrything, and theres no frikkin thing you can do about this. No more. No less. Nothing.
Meddling mages wont also shutdown Wombat for ATS, it also shutdowns solidarity, belcher and varity of rogues, its additional creature to discard for surfit and its chumper after all.
This deck was build without ATS in mind, its seems like me the only person who faced this problems. If you can win ATS deck, this is pile of cards, not an ATS deck.

midnightAce
11-07-2005, 04:39 PM
I'm going to post a very generous post because I'm in a very good mood right now.

Notice how you are the only one having trouble with one particular deck in your own local meta. Nobody else here have the same problem as you. I have been VERY patient while you rambled on and on about FEB for a page and half, but I think it's honestly time for you to stop.

Suggestions have given to you to help you compete against that deck. My own doubts of that FEB deck aside, IBA has even listed a DEDICATED SB against that deck. There is nothing more to be done.

There is also several points that people have addressed before, and I will address them in more detail.

a) MM naming things. I understand SotF decks can pull out of random creatures out of their asses when the SotF is in play, but there is no way he can consistently name the right removal at the right time. StP, Wrath, Humility, Vengeance, that's 4 different removals right there.

b) Bypassing Furnace. If your Furnace is casted early, you can literately keep his yard empty. According to your logic, he can consistly bounce Furnace even as early as turn 2-3.

c) Top decks. He has only 4 FoW, with 18 cards, IBA addressed this nicely, how does he have counter for everything? I played a UR Landstill pre-banning with 4 Drains, 4 Counters and 4 FoWs, I was having trouble consistly countering.

d) Top decks. So you can beat everything else but him. How does he live through the rampages of all these red decks that you can so easiely smash? He would have some sort of magical SB plan that seriously transform his deck. The fact that he's not losing to these red decks means those red decks are not SBing against him, why aren't they?

I will now refrain myself from derailing the post any further, and apologize to the beloved King of Legacy IBA for ranting on his pet deck post.

Back onto the actual topic, if ATS starts to pack MM, the matchup is not any different. I stress the fact that over 40% of the fucking deck is creature removal, and options such as Pithing Needle is widely avalible to the deck.


EDIT:


His manabase is a great big steaming pile of ass. If you are that concerned about the matchup, run 4x Wasteland maindeck. Take out Scrabbling Claws for the superiour Phyrexian Furnace and change 2x Vengence and a renewed faith for 3xDisenchant.

Link is correct. How is he getting 4x Mage out anyway? Even with Survival in hand every game, this process still takes many turns and requires a number of creatures in hand if you shut down Squee with Claws. He can't possibly get out the first 3 before you get to four mana. What are you doing, holding back?

As a side note, how is he getting 4x Meddling Mage, 2x Tradewind, and having a Blue card in hand to pitch to Force every game with only 18 fucking Blue cards in the deck?
Alternately, if it's such a fucking problem,you could try running Rout, or replacing Wing Shards with Disenchants. Run 4x Phyrexian Furnace and 4x Scrabbling Claws. Fuck, splash Blue for Acid Rain. Run Dust Bowl. Do something.


Then do what he's doing. Dedicate eight cards in the sideboard to the matchup. Try something like;

3x Karmic Justice
3x Sacred Ground
3x Disenchant
3x Illumination


Elven: As opposed to actually yelling at you like everyone else is here. Here are some suggestions.

1. Play Crucible / Wasteland: This forces the FEB player to find the Quirion Ranger before going off to prevent you from screwing with the combo.

2a. Abeyence is your friend!! Read Abeyence, then read it again. That's right it stops Survival, Volrath's Shapeshifter, Force of Will, Tradewind Rider, and anything that he can chuck at you. It cantrips and lets you clear some nasty things that just appeared. Save them until you need to do that.

2b. Phyrexian Furnace is especially nasty in this matchup.

3. This is huge, learn the timing of the combo. If he swings with the shifter and birds let him go throught the combo and when phage hits the yard then mess with him.

Timing goes as follows:
Akroma attacks
First strike damage on the stack
Phage gets discarded (If you go beyond this you lost)
Phage does the damage

4. This is especially important in this format. Learn about his manabase as much as possible. Most FEB decks are equal to if not worse than ATS manabases. Attack the manabase and you usually will win 50% of the games alone.


This is how much advice that were throw out to help you, how much have you actually taken to heart?
Did you change your deck accordingly and test the results?
Did you ask the guy piloting FEB what he would do if he was in your shoes?
Did you proxy up on MWS and take up the offers of Source members to test it out?
Did you watch how the FEB plays the red decks in your local meta?
Did you post any results of the changed version against FEB?
Did you play FEB yourself to get a feel how the deck works?
Did you get a judge to check his deck?

You came for help, help was given, whether or not you actually tested out the suggestions is purely up to you. But until you have, there is no reason to complain about the deck, and there is certainly no point in calling The Source mean or insult anybody.

ElvenTitz
11-07-2005, 04:46 PM
@midnightAce
The magical SB plan is Circle of Protections, Engineered Plagues (he dont like this cards, coz it limits squee).
Okay, ill stop, for now. Its my local meta after all, maybe you will never face the same good deck, maybe you will, and you will find right answers, time will tell. All i can say by now, im very thankeful for your suggestions, but you are wrong. Terrible. I wont go further into that, because it would result flamewar, riots and will strees respecteble source members. So i wont.

EDIT :
I made testings in real life. Also i tryed to use your offers to test, but i can test only in aprentice, and i can only connect. My norm PC is broken so i use 233-32RAM shit that has not enought memory to run MWS. Modified deck test results are shaky. He wins RED decks by fast akroma phage, but he plays with me by very different plan. He palys pure ATS with meddling mages and i cant find any cards yet to constantly defeat his strategies. I can come up with pitching needles, but they only work game 1, game 2 he sides in 2 gorills shamans and evrything returns to pervious circles. I didnt post any results of changed version, because changing is hard, i cant see the direction to change the deck. All changes i made so far are Kor Haven and Karakas (i dropped karakas recently), because Kor Haven is always useful, not only against his deck, but against tonn of other decks, this lands comes at handy.

Drkdstryer
11-08-2005, 12:14 AM
Why drop Karakas? I thought you were worried about Flashfires. It also seems to work pretty well against Akroma/Phage.

You might as well add in Eiganjo Castle to further hurt his Flashfires.

How are you running Engineered Plague in a monowhite deck? Even assuming you COULD somehow get BB in turn 3, how is it even relevant? If he's CASTING Squee, then there's truly NO WAY you can lose against this guy. And if he IS casting Squee, and you DO get Plague down,you are actually HELPING HIM. Squee in the yard > Squee in play.

Why are you not running Wasteland? Again, it limits his Flashfires even more, and it's the NUTS against his manabase.

How are you totally ignoring the SB advice given to you by IBA? You're excuse is


I didnt post any results of changed version, because changing is hard, i cant see the direction to change the deck

But IBA made the deck. I would assume that HE knows the direction to change the deck, why not try to use his advice?

I don't even play this deck and I don't understand how you are losing.

ElvenTitz
11-08-2005, 02:47 AM
@Drkdstryer
I was saying about his techs against red decks.
Okay, if you dont see, ill explain :
He has 4x Engineered Plague in his sideboard.
He drop one Engineered Plague in play, and has shapeshifter.
Now he cant abuse squee power with survival, because if he will discard squee, he will lose shapeshifter.
See? Im not even speaking of Wombat here, just read what i post more carefully (i know, my english is really sux, but i think its possible to understand after all)
Now, to karakas - yes, its good tech against flashfires, i think ill make it back. He wins against me not with akroma and stuff, he wins with tradewind raider.
If i will add Wastelands, ill restrict my ability to use Rune of Protection : RED , it reques white mana, wasteland give colorless, more than that - hand that contains : Wasteland, Seculded Steppe, some white stuff is horrible, especially if ill get it against goblins. I might consider few dustbowls (2 is max), but im seriozly doubt that wastelands are so good. They wont ruin his mana base - he will use survival to find birds and stuff, you suggest to swords his wall of rooots and wrath his birds ? Also he runs tonn of fetchlands, so the lands, that really important will show up only in right time. Maybe you right, maybe i wrong.

atingley
11-08-2005, 03:34 AM
So this is my first post on the source... but I was wondering if anyone had attempted a red splash in Wombat (outside of trying to use rift... which is a different deck altogether):

SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 3 Sacred Ground
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Exalted Angel
2 Disenchant
3 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
2 Rune of Protection: Red
4 Lightning Helix
4 Abeyance
4 Decree of Justice
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Humility
4 Wrath of God
4 Eternal Dragon
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Mishra's Factory
9 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Flooded Strand

With 3 strands and 4 dragons, you effectively have 11 shots at a plateau, which I've found to be more than enough for the 4 maindeck Helixes.

I was never happy with wing shards (mainly because I never seemed to get a storm higher than 1, which made it seem fairly unspectacular).

Helix has been fantastic, especially against gobbos and (surprisingly) as a decent addition to a clock against control decks (combined with factories and soldiers).

Wasteland has only come back to bite me a few times, and the way I look at it is I'm going to bring in sacred ground against decks that run wasteland anyway because of flashfires and or crucible (other than random black decks... which I rarely run into) so it isn't as big of a disadvantage.

Pillars is a fantastic answer to almost every combo deck, as it usually does around 10-14 points of damage to them, leaving factories, glowriders, and helixes to finish the job.

What do you guys think?

Zilla
11-08-2005, 03:55 AM
First of all, welcome to The Source. Good post. I think your decklist looks pretty solid, really. However, I hope you won't mind if I take the role of the naysayer for a few moments. I have a few questions/comments:

1. First and foremost: what does the red splash beat that the mono-white build does not? Certainly Pillar is a boon against combo, but not necessarily moreso than the 4x Sphere 2x Rule of Law plan. Helix may be beneficial against control and Goblins, but you already beat Goblins rather consistently, do you not? Same goes for control, really. Landstill is ridiculously easy. Angel Control is pretty decent as well. Basically, I know you've added good cards, but are they cards you actually need or are they just improving already positive matchups?

2. How much testing have you done? Considering how much Wombat absolutely hates missing land drops, and that mana destruction is actually one of the most effective strategies against the archetype, couldn't it be said that the red splash might be doing more damage than good? It seems to me that a Goblins build running 4x Port and 4x Waste is actually going to have a better matchup against you, because they can attack your manabase more effectively.

3. This point is probably the most important, in my mind. I've done a ton of testing against Wombat with aggro-control and true control. This includes Gro, Madness Tog, Dredge Tog, and UW Angel Control. Particularly in the cases of Dredge Tog and UW Angel Control, I absolutely fear Wing Shards more than any other card in the deck. The ineffectiveness of countermagic against it and the fact that it doesn't target is a huge advantage, and shouldn't be taken lightly. I honestly consider it a greater threat in many matchups than Wrath of God. I strongly question its exclusion from the deck.

In short, I'd like to see a more specific explanation of the advantages of the red splash in light of the potential weaknesses it may cause.

Alfred
11-08-2005, 04:43 AM
Wing Shards is IMO one of THE best cards in the deck. It negates haste in Goblins, which is an incredible boon and the ability to use it in conjunction with StP as well as Abeyance makes it a very good way of netting card advantage. Also, I would probably reconsider losing Shards for a damage-oriented removal spell because many control and aggro control decks run creatures that cannot bee removed by 3 damage. Tog succumbs to Shards, but probably never Helix, Mystic Enforcer, Mongrel, Nimble Mongoose and other creatures are simply immune to Helix, wheras Wing Shards gets 'em.

Sure Shards can't be used to hurt an opponent, but racing should never be a concern with this deck, it's pretty much the turtle of all legacy decks: Slowly build board position and win with a gigantic Decree of Justice. Sure 2 helixes might help you win a few turns earlier, but this is rarely my biggest concern with the deck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-08-2005, 08:30 AM
I'm going to pretty much agree with the others. Wing Shards is a huge weapon against control, aggro-control, and Goblins. Three untapped plains are always unpleasant news for a Goblins player, who has to decided between trying to race into a Wing Shards, opting to hold back a turn and get Wrath'd, or try to slow-play into the late game where Wombat invariably wins. The correct play, as most Goblins players correctly deduce, is to just go balls to the wall and try and kill the Wombat player as soon as possible, and Shards is a great weapon against this.

It also helps that I'm running Bandage now, which has even further synergy with Shards.

Anyways. Onto the Red splash; we've already covered the vulnerability to Wasteland, so let's adress the benefits. Red is the most common color for people to discuss splashing in Wombat, although usually it's more for Rifter, which I consider to generally be not overly useful and restrictive to your card choices, often making you run more cycling cards instead of effective cantrips like Abeyance, Bandage, Phyrexian Furnace and Mindstone.

Lightning Helix just seems out of place, and 9 times out of 10 no more effective than Exile. It's a strong card, but racing isn't Wombat's thing, as others have pointed out, and there are a number of other creatures it can't kill. At the GP in particular, I expect a large presence of Reanimator and Dredge-a-Tog, where Wing Shards will be much more useful than Helix, which is little more than half a Fog in these cases.

The best reason to splash Red in my mind is actually Burning Wish, which gives you an array of powerful answers game 1. However, it ironically actually weakens your combo matchup games 2-3 when you're unable to bring in as much effective hate.

On Survival: Phyrexian Furnace, even as a 2x, is obviously very good in this matchup, hitting their biggest threat against you, Genesis, as well as Anger and Squee. RGSA is very favorable in my experience, as they have no way of stopping Humility. ATS is a bit trickier, but also a bit slower. This matchup is much harder to play correctly, but by correctly baiting and guessing when your opponent has a counter (and keep in mind that most of the time they don't), you can resolve Humility. Once this happens, the pressure begins, as the wave of 1/1s come in. In no circumstance should you destroy your own Humility. No, I don't care if you have two Eternal Dragons out. Keep cycling and playing land, destroy incoming creatures, and start cycling DoJ only when you're getting 6-7 soldiers per cycle. And attack. This is very important because while you can create more 1/1's at once than he can, he can keep renewing his indefinitely and you can't. Therefore, you should begin Alpha Striking, only holding back any soldiers to block if you're at very low life.

For those interested, here's my current decklist

// Lands
18 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Secluded Steppe

// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [OV] Abeyance
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Wrath of God
2 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
2 [MI] Disenchant
4 [SH] Bandage
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
4 [ON] Renewed Faith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [ON] Exalted Angel
SB: 2 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground

Alfred
11-08-2005, 12:13 PM
21 lands? This seems rather shocking to me, even with the high number of cyclers available to the deck. I suppose that with the addition of Bandage, you can skimp a bit more on the mana base, but I only feel truly comfortable with 23 lands.

The reason why I think this is because with 21 lands, you will probably get a lot of 1 land hands which you will be tempted to keep because you have a bandage or a secluded steppe. Then if you don't draw into a land by the next turn, you may be up shit creek, especiall against Goblins, which can punish you for missing a land drop severely. I like the new list quite a bit, but I'll have to test it to see if I feel comfortable with the manabase.

Bandage looks like a great addition to the deck, but I slightly question the inclusion of Disenchant. I would actually suggest Ray of Distortion. Sure it does cost a lot of mana for it's effect, but Artifacts/Enchantments are a secondary concern that you can worry about later, after dealing with the creatures, so having a disenchant that gets you more mileage albiet at a higher price could be something that could pique your interest.

One negative of Ray that I'm sure you'll adress is the fact that it is less synergistic with Wing Shards, and overall isn't as easy to cast along with other spells. I would point to the fact that with only 2 spots available to a disenchant effect in your deck, chances are you will be drawing into it when you have mana available to cast it, and at this stage in the game, it pays to have a spell that reaps heavy card and board advantage.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-08-2005, 02:29 PM
Actually, I had been using Ray of Distortion when I had Mindstone, and felt that in such a build it was strong. The speed issue becomes more relevant without acceelration, however, and sometimes you want an early out.

Slay
11-08-2005, 03:13 PM
How useful has Akroma's Vengeance been for you? It has always been subpar for me whenever I've played with it. Especially as the deck is slowly lowering its overall casting costs and lowering its land count.
-Slay

l_neiman
11-08-2005, 04:35 PM
I agree with Slay. I took IBA's latest build and cut 2 Vengeance and something else in favor of 3 Mind Stone, that I think work really well in the deck. I was just finding that too often the Vengeances were absolutely dead vs. Goblins, since I'd usually have a Humility or ROP on board, and wiping the board of Goblins only to lose my enchantments was not a bargain. Since they ended up being cycled 75% of the time, I figured Mind Stone would be better.

IBA: any particular reason why you cut them?

Luis

KrzyMoose
11-08-2005, 04:46 PM
I dropped Vengeance when I started playtesting Wombat(a couple weeks before I T2'ed the GPT). That was the first change I made. Disenchant is not only cheaper, but it also deals with anything you want to Vengeance, without being a double-edged sword.

As with Mindstone, I haven't really seen where it's necessary. Sure, it might sound nice to be able to Wrath/Humility turn three, but I've never been in a situation where I've needed it. (except once, versus Goblins. But he got the mega-nuts draw, and I was pretty much dead, anyways.)

Deathmask
11-09-2005, 06:39 AM
Never, never ever cut Vengeance from the Deck. Although it is always slow, the Vengeance is still a key Card in the Deck. It fills so many rolls, being a Disenchant plus Wrath vs. Survival, being a Wrath vs. Goblins and cycling vs. Combo and Control. Of course Wrath is better vs. Goblins, Disenchant is better vs. Survival and a 1/2 Mana Cycler is better vs. Combo/Control, but the Vengeance is pure Flexibility.

About 1/3 of all Matches when I played this Deck and Matches turned out to last longer, I was able to play slow and develop my Position due to the knowledge of having Vengeance somewhere in the Deck or in my Hand.

@ IBA:

I am not satisfied with your new list. Imo it has several weaknesses.

1. 18 Lands +3 Steppe is too less, as you still cannot afford too miss Land Drops until Turn 4, while dropping a Steppe vs. Gobbos is just bad giving them a target for Wastelands. I would advice to play at least 19 Basics again, 18 opens you to mulligans and screw.

2. The Combo Sideboard is right now only hating Solidarity. While it succeeds in beating them, you have exactly nothing to board in vs. Flame Vault, your Matchup vs. them is 4 Abeyance / 2 Disenchant and these will get Forced. Don't underestimate FlameVault, there is a connection between Time Vault's price rising to sky and the upcoming GP. I would advice to run Gilded Lights as they can be boarded in vs. Hymn to Tourach, Burn and any other Combo as well.

3. Without any Kind of Graveyard-Hate this Deck can lose to Survival-Based Decks even with Humility out. If RG/SA gets about 8-10 Early Damage before Humilty comes out and then starts pumping out 2-3 Hasty 1/1s with Genesis/Squee/Draw every Turn, you probably cannot handle this. If they have a way to destroy Humility (Wish, MD Naturalize) you will lose.

4. The Absense of Furnaces also gives Landstill a way to beat you with Factory-Beatdown. How do you board vs. Landstill, you have several weak and 6 absolutely dead cards (Humility, Wrath), but only 3 Angel to side in. Glowrider, Sphere, Ground and Rule of Law all suck vs. Landstill, what is your plan vs them? Wombat is the superior Deck, but even though Landstill may not be a good Deck in the meta, it is still a strong Deck with SB Stifles, own Decrees, own Dragons etc.

I think while you succeeded in improving your Goblin and Solidarity Matchup with your new List you made some former good Matchups bad.

URABAHN
11-09-2005, 06:46 AM
On Survival: Phyrexian Furnace, even as a 2x, is obviously very good in this matchup, hitting their biggest threat against you, Genesis, as well as Anger and Squee. RGSA is very favorable in my experience, as they have no way of stopping Humility. ATS is a bit trickier, but also a bit slower. This matchup is much harder to play correctly, but by correctly baiting and guessing when your opponent has a counter (and keep in mind that most of the time they don't), you can resolve Humility. Once this happens, the pressure begins, as the wave of 1/1s come in. In no circumstance should you destroy your own Humility. No, I don't care if you have two Eternal Dragons out. Keep cycling and playing land, destroy incoming creatures, and start cycling DoJ only when you're getting 6-7 soldiers per cycle. And attack. This is very important because while you can create more 1/1's at once than he can, he can keep renewing his indefinitely and you can't. Therefore, you should begin Alpha Striking, only holding back any soldiers to block if you're at very low life.
Doesn't RGSA play Genesis as well? I had plenty of trouble outracing an army of 1/1s in Portsmouth. Bad luck perhaps?

Anusien
11-09-2005, 09:22 AM
From my experience playing against the deck in Richmond (I was piloting URW Landstill), it seems like you want more than 21 lands. At the very least, I would think you want 23, simply because it makes that matchup near unwinnable for the Landstill player. With only 21 lands, if you make every land drop, one Decree of Justice is not necessarily lethal. I could be planning the matchup wrong, but it seems like you want to recur Dragon, make every land drop in your deck, and then just cycle Decree 4 times at end of turn, run the other guy out of Disks and beat down. In the meantime if you want you can start playing creatures and seeing if you can force them to remove it. By bascally sitting back on a hand full of removal and Decrees you force the Landstill player to go aggro into a hand full of removal and Swords to Plowshares. Also, if you start killing Factories, all you have to do then is remove Crucible and you basically win. Just don't deck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-09-2005, 10:27 AM
The answer to most of these recurring problems is in fact to go as "aggro" as possible. Once DoJ gets to 6-9 soldiers, you start cycling and swinging to close the deal within a few turns. In these cases against Landstill, Abeyancing on their upkeep before they can Wrath/Vengeance is a good play. But it's better to just seal the deal in my experience than to fight inevitiability. This was, at any rate, my thought before

a) Dredge-A-Tog rose to the fore in Extended, signalling a trickle down into Legacy

and

b) Several of the decks developed on theManaDrain, particularly Jacob Orlove's Zi-Reanimator and Iggy Pop, became a bit more widespread. Iggy Pop I'm not too worried about (the interaction between Abeyance and Ill-Gotten Gains is just silly), but Zi-Reanimator is a threat, especially if they begin running Flashfires as a Wish target, which I expect the better players to do in light of the metagame.

This all being said, I'm giving serious reconsideration to moving Furnace back to a 4x, although that removes something I liked about no Furnace, no Mindstone- it puts all the cyclers back at Instant speed, keeping an opponent on their toes.

On the land count; This is in fact only one less Plains than what I've been running since pretty much forever. The low land count is keeping in mind the relative proliference of 1-mana cyclers, and also the fact that at this time and date, I think it's correct to pretty much always choose to draw first with Wombat.

On the sideboard; it's actually quite flexible. On the issue of Flamestax in particular, bigbear can verify this. We played seven games of me with Wombat and him with Flames-Stax. I got smashed the two pre-sideboard games, but after siding out most of the creature hate for Sacred Ground, Exalted Angels, Sphere of Resistance, and Glowriders, I won the next four out of five games. As non-intuitive as it sounds, Sphere of Resistance and Glowrider actually favor you over them in this matchup.


I also agree on Akroma's Vengeance. It's a big red reset button that, and I always get chills when I find myself in a difficult position and realize I don't have that out. I think cutting it to a 2x was a smart call, but not having the option of clearing the board seems unfortunate to me, especially with as low as 2x Disenchant effects.



Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1131550132

forschizzle
11-09-2005, 03:47 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid9]So I played this deck in a tournament recently only to get my ass stomped by R/G SA. I now have problems with that deck because somehow people who play it constantly get a third turn hermit and I have no wrath in hand. Are there any sb cards that may help me in this matchup? Don't say rain of blades because they never attack with their hermit bitch and it doesn' matter if I swords him cuz there's still 4 1/1's after him(not including their first and second turn plays). Please help me out guys! I have no clue what to do...hehe that rhymed...
-forschizzle my nizzles[/color:post_uid9]

Ewokslayer
11-09-2005, 04:15 PM
I am not surprised that you are having problems with RGSA. Though I am surprised that it is because of third turn hermit, I expected the problem being Burning Wish for Flashfires game 1. If they are getting a third turn hermit all the time you need to be using swords on their mana elves/birds and as well as gettting the damn survival off the board ASAP. Even then a third turn hermit isn't lethal and a turn 4 wrath should allow you to stablize long enough to lose to Burning Wish. :)

forschizzle
11-09-2005, 04:42 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid11]In my meta no one plays burning wish and when they do get off a hermit they don't usually have a survival in play, but I do guess you could buy some time by swording mana accel. It is just so damn irritating to not have a wrath or draw into one within 2-3 turns. Humility doesn't even work after game 1 because all of a sudden people like playing non-creature spells called naturalize in a survival deck. Honestly I think that is a little sad. If anyone can still think of sb cards for me that would be nice too.
-forschizzle my nizzles[/color:post_uid11]

Raven of SD
11-09-2005, 07:16 PM
Any thoughts on adding Mindslaver to the deck? I think even one would be benefitial. Breaks up stalemates, randomly makes opponents commit suicide and if nothing else it acts as a time walk.

darkmindtone
11-09-2005, 10:39 PM
It seems to me from testing for the GP, that the standard builds have room for one "metagame card" such as Banding, Phyrexian Furnace, or Gilded Light. Trying to figure out which of those will be best for the GP is up to the player I guess, but I think I will probably end up with Furnace, as it deals with a zone of play that the deck cannot otherwise tough: the Graveyard.

Also, I have a few questions regarding Humility:

-Does Eternal Dragon still retain the Plainscycle and "upkeep return" abilities with Humility on the board?

-I know basics of Timestamp, but was wondering if it had any effect on a Genesis in the graveyard for Survival decks, as I remember seeing that situation come up at a GPT a few weeks ago.

-So all manlands such as Factory still retain their individual characteristics even with a Humility on board? At least that's the idea I'm getting from reading the posts here, saying that a change to the way Timestamp is played passed recently.

Thank you for any answers to these questions.

bigbear102
11-10-2005, 01:14 AM
Eternal Dragon retains all abilities, because Humility only effects creatures in play. Genesis also retains abilities. Manlands and the like do trump Humility now.

Eldariel
11-10-2005, 12:55 PM
Now that I think of it, Mindslaver appears a beautiful option. It gives the deck a relatively fast clock against Combo. A Mindslaver-activation generally wrecks any combo decks, since they're so good at killing themselves. FlameVault loses infinite turns, Solidarity Brain Freezes itself to death, etc.

Of course, speed is somewhat of an issue with this, but with Mindstone, turn 5 play, turn 6 activation shouldn't be impossible, which would possibly work out with Abeyances, Chants and Gilded Lights (+ any possible match-up dependant answers, such as Disenchant against Flame Vault) holding them off for a turn or two. Of course, it would be optimal to cast the Slaver at 7 mana, since that'd allow following up with a Chant.

forschizzle
11-10-2005, 03:34 PM
Wow...has anyone tested out genju. Seriously wow...if those can survive a humility I'm running them because they are ridiculous against any form of DYING. You can block any goblin, the goblin will die, you will gain 2 life (which pretty much negates another goblin), and you can do this repeatedly. Incinerator? OK, well it's your creature is already considered blocked and the genju goes back to my hand bitch! I love this card and I really hope that it gets past humilty because I really can't imagine losing to a creature based deck with it. It also becomes another kill method, but prolly still won't net you a win against solidarity pre-board. SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM IF THIS GETS AROUND HUMILITY BECAUSE THE JUDGE AT MY TOURNAMENTS SAYS IT DOESN'T WORK.
-forschizzle my nizzles

darkmindtone
11-10-2005, 03:55 PM
The problem I had with Genju versus Goblins is that they should be running 4X Port, which shuts Genju down for the rest of the game if they want it to, while you have nothing you can do to stop it.

forschizzle
11-10-2005, 04:17 PM
Well the port also slows them down and this forces them to use port. You could still use mana in response to the port with a swords or any cycling cards. Also if you have a humility out you can block all those dumb 1/1's with a 2/5 that gains life and force them to overextend into a wrath...wait you don't even need a humility to make them overextend, that's what genju does and I really like it because of that. Anyways I don't think it will make much of a difference against the port since they will use port anyways, and you are supposed to win against goblins anyways, so if you are really worried about port and you want genjus( cuz they're great against all aggro decks and force them to overextend) then you can sb tsabo's web and completely rape them with this sexy bitch of a card.Yeah baby!
-forschizzle my nizzles

bigbear102
11-10-2005, 05:23 PM
I agree completely with the rationale that Genju is good in this deck, and that it houses aggro, but there is one problem... this deck already does that. You don't need the lifegain or the blocker. It really isn't needed at all. You already smash goblins and aggro. Adding Genju makes you take out other cards that are good, personally if I were to add in 2 cards they would be Phyrexian Furnace, to deal with the matchups that aren't already good. I'm not saying that Genju is a bad idea, it's just too redundant, making your good matchups better, and not helping in the bad ones, I know it's a clock, but it's not as effective as it could be. I would much rather play extra disenchant effects, furnaces, cyclers, gilded light, mindstone. It just seems like you could fit in much better cards into those slots. Plus it makes your manabase even more targetable and disruptable, which is about the only way to beat this deck.

forschizzle
11-10-2005, 08:05 PM
So is anyone COMPLETELY sure if genju works with humility because I'm going to do some more testing with it if it is. I think its a good idea because it might help me with the problem matchups in my meta which is RGSA (without burning wish). The only deck in my meta that has a high chance of beating this is solidarity and there is only one of those, so my sb has some stuff for that but I don't really have problems with anything else except RGSA which is why I think these are good. I think they will help in that matchup acting as an early blocker, and making hermit less devastating. I run mindstone in my build and I could easily replace those with genjus and not mess up anything.
-forschizzle my nizzles

moxpearl
11-13-2005, 08:32 PM
I'm very sure Humility is now trumped by manlands and genju. The problem is getting the judge believe that, even a high level judge. Humility is probably THE most confusing card in the game and has probably received the most rulings and erratas, not to mention probably contradicting rulings from different judges. Wizards probably never would have printed the card if they knew how many headaches it would cause. Now, that being said, it's a card white deserves.

I asked the StarCity judge and he concurred. The problem is the judge at any given tournament has been educated over many years that humility trumps manlands, so unless they've been up-to-date on the new rulings' effects on Humility (which is used ONLY in Legacy), then they could very well rule in another direction.

My advice is to "ask the judge" at both Wizards and Starcity and bring the piece of paper to your tournament. It's clear when you see a ruling step-by-step. You still might be overruled...

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-14-2005, 02:54 AM
I'm very pleased to say that after nonsense from several Wombat decks at the Last Chance Qualifier, the Judges at the GP had six page FAQs on Humility. And from a glance around the tables, they were necessary. So I didn't hear of any erroneous rulings on Humility (or other rulings at all, for that) at the GP.

Ridiculous Hat
11-14-2005, 03:13 AM
For the record, I saw many players playing bandage at the gp and 90% of their opponents did not know how to beat it. If they have a mogg fanatic or lightning bolt in their hand, they let bandage resolve and then dome you with whatever burn spell they have. Lackey gets through. I'd rather have shining shoal, honestly-- maybe it's been tested but it actually kills lackey and can't be stopped by one of 8 cards in the goblins maindeck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-14-2005, 03:34 AM
We actually had this conversation, but I don't think that's really much of an argument against Bandage. If your opponent is willing to give you 2-for-1s to get that Warchief out, let him have it. To be honest? It's not like you lose the game because they got a second turn Lackey through. It's really not. You still have plenty of opportunities to win then, on the draw or on the play. Running Shining Shoal instead, which instead of cantripping and digging deeper, costs you CA, seems g-awful. If I wanted a card strictly as another turn 1 answer to Lackey, I'd run Rain of Blades, but that's not Bandages primary purpose. And this assumes they're going to have the Fanatic to reinforce the Lackey anyway.

Ridiculous Hat
11-14-2005, 03:39 AM
We actually had this conversation, but I don't think that's really much of an argument against Bandage. If your opponent is willing to give you 2-for-1s to get that Warchief out, let him have it. To be honest? It's not like you lose the game because they got a second turn Lackey through. It's really not. You still have plenty of opportunities to win then, on the draw or on the play. Running Shining Shoal instead, which instead of cantripping and digging deeper, costs you CA, seems g-awful. If I wanted a card strictly as another turn 1 answer to Lackey, I'd run Rain of Blades, but that's not Bandages primary purpose. And this assumes they're going to have the Fanatic to reinforce the Lackey anyway.
I probably should've reread the thread but I noticed that sort of thing happening during the tournament a lot-- in particular, a friend of mine played lightning bolt and dealt 2 instead of 3 and then got out a siege-gang. It seemed like bandage was only good about 50 percent of the time, and while I understand that it cantrips, it seems like giving your opponent an opportunity to crush you in a matchup you should win is not so good. Perhaps I'm underestimating the deck or misevaluating the card, but it just seemed pretty lackluster to me.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-14-2005, 03:53 AM
Here's the thing. If you're playing first, the odds of that turn 2 Lackey "crushing" you before you get out Wrath or Humility or Swords-Shards or active Rune are really not very high. If you're playing second, they're down a card and less favored to have Lackey, less favored to have Fanatic to back it up, and less favored to have a bomb to drop off of Lackey. This is partially assuming a build with only 1x Kiki, 1x SCG, and no Lightning Bolts, which changes the probability, but as I believe that to be the better build it's the one I'd be more worried about, anyway. But even so... I'm not saying it's not relevant- a goblins player should want to know they can get around Bandage- but it's just not relevant enough to change anything. Bandage was added in place of another cantrip that didn't do anything to Lackey to make an already favorable matchup a little better, for when they get the first turn Lackey and when you don't have the first turn Swords, and also to up the number of 1cc cyclers. To go from that to playing something like Shining Shoal or Rain of Blades is like starting out buckling your seatbelt before you go for a drive to the grocery store and ending up living in a cave in the wilds a week later out of deathly fear that you'll die in a car crash.

Control wins by assuming it's opponent gets average draws. You can't start assuming your opponent will get God draws, there's no profit in it.

Ridiculous Hat
11-14-2005, 03:59 AM
Here's the thing. If you're playing first, the odds of that turn 2 Lackey "crushing" you before you get out Wrath or Humility or Swords-Shards or active Rune are really not very high. If you're playing second, they're down a card and less favored to have Lackey, less favored to have Fanatic to back it up, and less favored to have a bomb to drop off of Lackey. This is partially assuming a build with only 1x Kiki, 1x SCG, and no Lightning Bolts, which changes the probability, but as I believe that to be the better build it's the one I'd be more worried about, anyway. But even so... I'm not saying it's not relevant- a goblins player should want to know they can get around Bandage- but it's just not relevant enough to change anything. Bandage was added in place of another cantrip that didn't do anything to Lackey to make an already favorable matchup a little better, for when they get the first turn Lackey and when you don't have the first turn Swords, and also to up the number of 1cc cyclers. To go from that to playing something like Shining Shoal or Rain of Blades is like starting out buckling your seatbelt before you go for a drive to the grocery store and ending up living in a cave in the wilds a week later out of deathly fear that you'll die in a car crash.

Control wins by assuming it's opponent gets average draws. You can't start assuming your opponent will get God draws, there's no profit in it.
Fair enough, I suppose. You've certainly tested the deck more than I have. However I disagree that only 2x 5-drop goblins and 0x lightning bolt to be correct-- Sonne ran 3 siege-gang, for example. I don't know about Lightning Bolt but I think it's very relevant, especially in this matchup. Oftentimes it can make the gobs matchup about 50/50 if they have bolts. A teammate of mine missed day 2 on tiebreaks but went 2-1 against wombat with 3 bolts in the main, 2 sgc, and 1 kiki.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-14-2005, 04:33 AM
Hrm. Well, Lightning Bolt is certainly unnecessary, I think, but I actually agree somewhat on the fatty Gobbos. I liked that the winning build was running nothing but Goblins, Aether Vials, and lands maindeck- 34 Goblins ensures nice, healthy Ringleaders. Although I actually would go with NJX's opinion and run 2x Kiki-Jiki and 1x SCG- it's just hard to get Kiki active and not win.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-15-2005, 01:01 AM
Here's the Rift deck that went to Top 4 at the GP;


2 Plateau
7 Mountain
9 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Forgotten Cave

4 Eternal Dragon

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rune of Protection: Red
3 Humility
3 Abeyance
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Renewed Faith
3 Decree of Justice
2 Disenchant
2 Pyroclasm
3 Slice and Dice
3 Lightning Rift

Is it arrogant of me to think that this is more of Wombat with a Red Splash than anything else? It certainly has more similarities to Wombat than to, say, the Rifter list that FakeSpam first posted way back when.

Given it's placing, was I also incorrect to dismiss the idea of a Red splash? Or am I right to think that running only 11 actual White sources, 2 of which get Wastelanded, is not worth Rift and Slice 'n Dice? Is Pyroclasm worth it, narrow as it generally is? It becomes much more widely applicable with Humility, but as a 2x, was it really a huge factor in this? And with 7x basic Mountains, how useful was the White-activated Rune, really? I know I've totally shut down Goblins without a Wrath before just using Rune and tapping out, but that seems much less doable with this mana base. And he lost to Pikula because Vindicate, Wasteland, and Sinkhole could keep him off of Red mana in game 1 of his top 4 match.

On the other hand, I really, really like Slice and Dice.

So, discuss. A couple of people are bantering that this build is strictly better than Wombat, but that might just be smug satisfaction at the idea of Jack "Loud and Abrasive Asshole" Elgin being 'showed up' by a purportedly-inferior version of his deck Top 4ing while the only two straightup builds to make day 2 fell out of contention.

ElvenTitz
11-15-2005, 01:36 PM
I've tested rifter deck today.
I gone vs Junk 1-7
Vs Breakfast 1-3
After testings, i still think that pyroclasms must be replaced with WoGs.

Nightmare
11-15-2005, 02:46 PM
My eyes hurt every time you post.

Why are you discussing Rifter in the Wombat forum. There's a Rifter thread called "Astroglide" in the N&D forum.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-15-2005, 03:06 PM
Well, actually, I initiated it. More specifically, I was discussing a red splash in Wombat, which remarkably seems to be 99% the exact same thing.

scarface
11-20-2005, 01:21 AM
With the emergence of B/w Deadguy, should more consideration be given to cards like gilded light and RoP: Black in the mainboard? Also, I think there should now be a minimum of 3 Sacred Grounds in the sb. The matchup seems pretty crappy.

dre4m
11-27-2005, 10:46 AM
@Scarface;

This would only seem necessary if BwD became widely played, and even so, Sacred Ground would become the best sideboard for the matchup, as Gilded Light is only good against this deck if you can cast it over and over again, i.e. via Isochron Scepter, in which case you should just stick an Abeyance on it and win the game. RoP: Black might be more worth considering, but it just makes a Vindicate target for them like any other enchantment, and Humility will trump all 11 of their creatures just as well.

Ridiculous Hat
11-27-2005, 02:39 PM
Just for the record, I was generally of the opinion that wombat + red splash = rifter. If there is a different deck that's more rift-focused, then I don't know about it and I don't really think it deserves discussion, as it hasn't performed and the core here is very solid. I just like Rift and Slice and cool sideboard cards more than, say, Bandage. ;)

The steppes get played more often than you might think, and I doubt that this deck has too many problems against gobs. Sure, there is the mana denial aspect, but there are 26 lands in the deck and a lot of cyclers. I'd assume the deck gets to two mana pretty consistently, and once there I'd be surprised if it couldn't get any further.

It also seems to me that Pyroclasms are not Wrath replacements but rather Swords 5 and 6 that just happen to completely annihilate goblins and anything under humility.

If I was sideboarding against Pikula's deck... well, first I'd try to figure out what the problem in the matchup is. If it's the LD, Sacred Ground is definitely the best card, with Crucible being a decent second choice. If it's the discard, I'd go with Pure Intentions or Spiritual Focus-- Focus is probably better.

Peter_Rotten
11-27-2005, 02:56 PM
If it's the discard, I'd go with Pure Intentions or Spiritual Focus-- Focus is probably better.
And let's not forget Guerilla Tatics - give Hippy a nasty surprise while not making 3 or 4 SB slots completely dead for other match-ups.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-28-2005, 03:24 AM
Man. I hope to God you guys are joking.


PR wouldn't surprise me as much if he wasn't, though.


Anyway, yeah, I've thought more about Gilded Light... plus it's killer good in the mirror match, since it counters those Abeyances.

Ridiculous Hat
11-28-2005, 09:23 AM
Man. I hope to God you guys are joking.


PR wouldn't surprise me as much if he wasn't, though.


Anyway, yeah, I've thought more about Gilded Light... plus it's killer good in the mirror match, since it counters those Abeyances.
Well, I honestly do not really know how that matchup plays out, as I can't really work up the urge to playtest wombat and I can't really find a willing playtest partner anyways. What's the main threat in the matchup, the LD? That's what I'd assume, but if the problem is the massive amounts of discard, it seems like Spiritual Focus in play is something of a problem when it invalidates like 12 of their cards. Pure Intentions is certainly worse, but if nothing else it protects you from Hymn. Gilded Light usually does the same thing and probably has a significantly better general use, but again, we're talking about sideboard cards here-- we're looking for narrow power, not broader utility. Perhaps Gilded Light belongs main?



Edited By Ridiculous Hat on 1133187973

scarface
12-05-2005, 05:58 PM
If you want to make the B/w matchup stronger, I suggest running Gilded Light in IBA's Bandage slot and changing Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard to True Believer. This change could also improve the combo matchup, since Gilded Light forces solidarity to leave a spell on the stack if they don't have a Force in hand, and True Believer adds another kill condition. Finally, I suggest making room for one more Sacred Ground in the sideboard, possibly taking out the Rule of Laws. Here's my new sideboard:

4 True Believer
4 Glowrider
4 Exalted Angel
3 Sacred Ground

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-07-2005, 11:44 PM
Update;


I've cut Renewed Faith for Festival of the Guildpact.

That is all.

Tao
12-12-2005, 07:36 AM
Bandage? Festival of the Guildpact? I can't believe it. These cards are crap and crap. Cantripping crap, but still crap.
You cycle away crap to find a) land or b) more crap.

The original idea of this deck was to have cantripping cards, like Gilded Light, Renewed Faith or Phyrexian Furnace that you actually can play and use without the cantrip ability.

Putting down a Furnace on Turn1 buys you much time vs. NQG. Furnace is also good vs. a lot of other Decks like Survival Variants, Psychatog, Landstill, Mirror, Rock, "insert Rdm. Deck". Maybe these other Decks are not dominating the Metagame right now, but they are still out there, so I would never cut them from MD.

Gilded Light is a great card vs. ALL combo decks in the Format, in a Tag Team with Abeyance you have sth. MD vs. Solidarity, Flamevault or Random Combo which makes it possible to leave SB-Slots to other Decks then combo. Furthermore casting Gilded Light works vs. Burn, Cabal Therapy, Haunting Echoes and Sui/Yin&Yang variants.

To Festival of the Crappact:
Cutting Renewed Faith may be an option, but not for Festival. Faith is so solid vs. Decks that want to Burn you out, or Beatdown Decks withouth paying tons of Mana. Vs. Burn Faith gains you get 6 Life for three eot, while Guildpact gains you at best 4 life for 5 Mana and you need to wait for the 4 Dmg. Spell.

If you are at low life vs. creature based Decks you are forced to tap out for these Festivals in Combat Step and can't play it EOT, so your opponent will see you tapped out for preventing x Damage and know that you won't be able to put in x Soldier tokens this Turn, which gives him options.
I know about the Synergy between these and Wing Shards, but Creature based Aggro is NOT what this deck should be concerned about.

With Renewed Faith and Gilded Light the Deck once worked under Standstill, maybe it is no more needed in the current Meta, but Landstill is still around and Standstill is still a good card, though it gets ruined by Vial atm.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-12-2005, 05:45 PM
Well, although I don't classify these cards as crap, and although Standstill isn't really part of my reasoning (I would kick the crap out of Landstill anyway, honestly), I am currently using a list that agrees a lot with Tao. I came to the epiphany that it's easier to beat Goblins with an optimal deck than one that has lots of answers for first turn Lackey. And so;

// Lands
19 [P3] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [OV] Abeyance
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Wrath of God
2 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
3 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
4 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
3 [SC] Gilded Light
4 [ON] Renewed Faith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [ON] Exalted Angel
SB: 2 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground

I feel better about the deck going back to the place where every card in it is strong against a lot of strategies hardcast.

wozmaz
12-12-2005, 06:31 PM
Why do you have only 19 lands?? I would think you would need a least 22 and shouldn't you have disenchant in the sb or md?

Cimney Imp
12-12-2005, 11:25 PM
shouldn't you have disenchant in the sb or md?
I think he is reasoning that disenchant is really only useful against belcher. So the disenchant turned into spheres and Glow Riders basically witch lets be honest hose belcher quite a bit more. Turning Off many of their accelerators is much more useful than hoping that they dont have enough to play it and activate it in the same turn.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-13-2005, 07:18 AM
Pretty much. MD Disenchant was a move that went with the metagame. So is cutting it. Against Goblins the card is suboptimal, and against Deadguy Ale, Solidarity, and Gro it's dead. Landstill is already a ridiculously favorable matchup. It has no useful applications in the mirror. Most of the decks left it hits, Vengeance hits much harder.

And no, 19 lands is enough. I simply mulligan until I get two lands, and from there I'm good. You could bump it to 20 if you really wanted, but heavy cantripping makes more lands unnecessary.



Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1134476383

smeagol
12-21-2005, 02:33 PM
A friend of mine piloted a very similiar deck at GP Lille to a 4-2 drop (God knows why he dropped after 6 rounds, but anyways...). He also played the very techy Trinisphere/Ancient Tomb plan, which buys lots of time vs. many decks. Maybe his deck is more of a hybrid between Wombat and Stax, but it worked quite well for him (he beat Gobbos twice, Grow once and a WW, the loses came from a Goblin Deck and double Mulligan on his part and against some other random deck, don't know what it was...).

Anyways, the point I want to make is the Trinisphere Tech. Seems quite reasonable in this deck, doesn't it?
The Sphere is btw also great vs. High Tide combo and Grow. :blues:

EDIT: Tournament Report 23.12.2005 UniLegacy Bremen/Germany 18 participants, 5 rounds

I played this deck at the monthly Legacy Tournament at Bremen University, Germany. The Trinisphere Tech works surprisingly well. First of all my Deck List:

Land:
15 Plains
1 Karakas (random, but might help vs. Flashfires and maybe the effect can bounce some random legends...)
3 Secludded Steppe
4 Ancient Tomb

Win:
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice

Tech:
4 Trinisphere

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wing Shards
3 Wrath of God
2 Akroma's Vengeance

Enchantments:
3 Humility
2 Rune of Protection: Red
1 Story Circle (as additonal backup to Pithing Needle)

Stuff:
4 Renewed Faith
3 Abeyance

Sideboard:
2 Gilded Light
2 Rune of Protection: Green (most Grow critters are green)
1 Wing Shards
1 Abeyance
4 Disenchant
1 Pulse of the Fields
4 Exalted Angel

My version is very heavy on the anti-aggro part, because no one usually plays combo any longer in my meta (we had a solidarity player, but he plays R/G Survival nowadays). The decks to beat in my meta are Gobbos, Burn, Grow-variants and Landstill.

Round 1: vs U/W/R ScepterChant

The first game takes a lot of time, I go quite low on life, due to a scepter with Lightning Helix. My opponent has a lot of useless counters and I can manage to cycle a decree for 6 and then another one for 7 tokens. Problem is, that he has Orim's Chant to stop me from attacking one turn and he burns me out.
Second game is decided by a decree for 8 tokens. I can disenchant his Scepter with Chant, thanks to double Abeyance (absolutely necessary against Counter-based control). I win with the tokens.
As there are only 8 minutes left in the round, we agree on an intentional draw.
0-0-1

Round 2: vs U/W Landstill
The first game is decided by a cycled Decree (again...) and no Stifle on his part. Decree takes care of his attacking Mishra with a surprise block and because he has no Crucible he can't recover. Decree is the nuts vs. a Standstill. He has to crack his own Standstill just to get rid of two tokens. thanks to the card advantage he can't win.
Game two I keep a land light hand and miss my third land drop. Not very good against Landstill. He builds up ridiculous card advantage and this time he has the Stifle for my enormous Decree. :( I lose.
The third game stalls out, I have duble Wing Shard, Abeyance, double Plowshares and Renewd Faith in my hand, but no Decree. He has only two Manlands in play. Time is called, I'm still at 13 Life and he can't win in the extra turns. The next draw.
0-0-2

Round 3: vs. B/G/W Survival
Humility owns him, though he has Genesis recurring creatures. Thanks to Trinisphere even his now 1/1 Birds cost three mana to play. He managed to snap double Decree from my hand, thanks to a flashbacked Cabal Therapy. He starts to recurr a creature for 6 mana each turn, while I have to get back chumpblocking dragons for 12 mana (maybe something like mobilization would help out in drawn out games???). At three life I face 6 attackers and I take the last chance top deck and draw my last remaining Decree (the third decree was cycled mid game for 3 tokens). My dragons worked overtime and had fetched all 15 plains by this time. Therefore I could cycle the Decree for something like 14 tokens (thanks to ancient tomb) in response to his attack. He scooped. This game took about half an hour. For game two I board in my Angels, taking out the humilities. This works very well, as I can put down a morphed Angel turn 3 (ancient Tomb is really good). Though he wastes my Tomb next turn and I fail to draw land cards for the next few turns, I have enough time to finally unmorph the Angel and swing enough times to win. His Pernicious Deed took care of the Angel before he would have died, but the eot cycled Decree is too much for him to handle.
Yeah, my first win.
1-0-2

Round 4: vs U/R Counter-Burn
hmm kay, Counter-Burn? well, should't be too hard to beat... Wrong. He burns me down low enough, my Decree for 5 tokens doesn't make any difference. Hard Casted Dragons get countered and I fail to draw either Rune of Protection or Renewed Faith...
Second Game Angels from the Board make the Difference. I can sneak a fast Angel into the game that he can't handle. I have lots of dead cards in this matchup (all my creature removal does nothing against his deck). But that doesn't matter. Trinisphere slows him down enough for me to win.
Third game works like the second, but in addition I also get down a second turn Rune, just in case...
When I cycle a decree for 7 at end of turn and also have two Angels down he realizes it's time to scoop.
2-0-2

Round 5: vs Summersberg Grow
I play the Land-Go game this time. His early Mongeese are answered by Wing Shards, His Meddling Mage set on Wrath gets killed by Plows. He plays two Pithing Needles on Dragon and Decree and I'm forced to hardcast Decree. Fortunately he can't counter and my two angel tokens easily race his Mongoose.
Second game he is horribly Mana Screwed. I play a turn 2 Rune:Green, followed by a turn 3 Trinisphere, thus preventing any cantrips. A Cycled Decree for 3 tokens is all I need to win.
3-0-2

11 Points is good enough for me to make 3rd Place. :)

1st Place was a Gobbo Player, who went 5-0
2nd Place a W/U Control Player, who went 4-1

All in all, I'm very satisfied with the decks performance. Especially the Trinisphere proved its worth. Maybe I played too much sorcery speed removal and maybe a third win condition wouldn't be a bad idea...

any comments?

Lukas Preuss
12-26-2005, 10:23 AM
Yeah... I was wondering whether RoP: Green is better than Phyrexian Furnace against Gro or not. Currently, I'm running 4 Phyrexian Furnaces in the maindeck and they have been really great in this matchup (which is important, since Gro is Legacy's DTB, right?), since they can also stop Fledging Dragons from becoming large... Have you tested the Furnaces?

Lego
12-26-2005, 10:27 PM
@IBA: Props for finally taking out the Snow-Covereds!! I'll put away my sideboard Cold Snaps now :)

But seriously, I think you're right in taking the deck back to its roots. I was getting more and more dissapointed about seeing Mono-White Anti-First Turn Lackey.dec

smeagol
12-27-2005, 07:12 AM
In fact I dropped the Furnaces completely from the deck, because they often times didn't do enough. One Furncace usually can't race the speed with which Grow fills it's grave and versus most other decks Furnace is just a bad cycler. Rune of Protection works fine, stopping Mongeese, Bears and Enforcers, often times leading the opponent to overextend (and that's why I play Wrath with Abeyance backup...).
Versus the red Grow variant you still have RoP:Red, thus a big Graveyard shouldn't be too much of an issue. The key card in the Grow Matchup , however is the Trinisphere. Brainstorm and other Cantrips become really bad at 3 Mana. :D

bigbear102
12-27-2005, 09:16 AM
Jack, how is your matchup against Deadguy now that you have changed the deck. It seems with Gilded Light you may have upped the game a bit, but in my testing the deck still doesn't do all that well. SB helps a lot, slowing them to a crawl, but it also slows you down, and witht he LD I find that they can usually still pull one game out at least.

The other question I have is about the 3 Vengeances. Whenever I play the deck I never want to see Vengeance early, obv because it costs 6. Do you find that it is really that useful? Most of the time I would just cycle it. It seems like playing another Wrath might be more helpful, especially with those damn mongeese getting more popular.

Also, with the "death" of Solidarity, would it be worth changing the sideboard? At least taking the Rule of Laws out for something else, maybe a 4th Gilded Light and 3rd Sacred Ground. I know Solidarity isn't really dead, but with Gro becoming so popular, it's going to have a much harder time competing now.

My problem with Trinisphere is that it causes you to assrape your manabase, Ancient Tomb has never worked well for me in this deck. It makes the Gobbos matchup so much harder, along with Gro and RGSA. Most of these matches end with the Wombat player at a reasonably low life anyway, and dealing yourself damage does not help that along. The other problem with the sphere is that if you don't draw Tomb it comes down too late. If Gro is on the play, then by the time you drop 3sphere, they are probably within 1 spell of Threshold with a beater on the board. RGSA doesn't even care about the card, Gobbos might if they have a bad starting hand, Landstill could care less, and most control decks would counter it anyway (and you already smash them). It might help against Deadguy, but I would think we can come up with better cards to help that matchup.

Lego
01-03-2006, 12:34 AM
Trinisphere seems too slow and too limited. Like you said bear, it doesn't add much to any matchups that other cards couldn't do better.

I've thought the same thing about the Solidarity matchup. With Thresh becoming such a deck to beat, I've put Solidarity on hold for a while (yay Nausea!!) and I think a lot of other people have, too. The sideboard space seems better dedicated to the more problem matchups, depending on what becomes big.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-03-2006, 02:28 AM
-4 Furnace
+4 Bandage


I'm sorry I ever doubted you, Bandage.

bigbear102
01-03-2006, 04:49 PM
Ok, so explaining choices about the deck is always fun, ya know, actually reading the thread you created to answer any questions people have asked...

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-03-2006, 05:09 PM
Fine, fine.

RoP Green is being considered. I'd probably cut Lights for it. The card is increasingly sub-par. Well, it'd be -3 Lights, +1 RoP Red, +2 RoP Green, really.

Furnace is terrible as Smeagol said against Gro. You really need two to do anything, and all it is is half a sorcery speed cantrip, really. It's only really good against Survival, which no one plays. Fuck that. Bandage > Aggro, especially with Wing Shards.

Trinisphere I hate against combo, but against Gro... it still seems like there's just better options, though. Sphere of Resistance does the same thing, really, and a turn faster. Or just more creature removal- if I cut the techboard, I'd definitely want a 4th Wrath/Wing Shards in the board.

spiritmage788
01-13-2006, 01:42 AM
I just put together this deck to play in tournaments and it's looking great. My deck is very similar to TIBA's most recent list, except for the sideboard (my local metagame has very few combo decks and is surprisingly devoid of Solidarity). I was wondering if you'd gotten around to testing those Runes of Protection in place of Gilded Light (or whatever). How'd that work out for you?

Happy Gilmore
01-19-2006, 10:16 PM
How does everyone think this deck will preform at the duel for duels? It seems that with Grow on the rise Wombat should have a good showing if people play it. Which makes me think that maybe a 4th Wing Shards could make it into the maindeck, especially since you have both Bandage and Abayance uping the storm count.

Regarding the SB: Is chalice of the Void still and option for the sideboard or is it too slow to be relevant? Mostly I was thinking how Sphere of Resistance and CotV interact in a positive way for the wombat player.

To IBA: One thing that kind of bothers me about this tread is the difficulty of finding the current decklist. Would you mind keeping the current list updated on the first page?

Lego
01-20-2006, 12:03 AM
Wing Shards is at 4 whenever I play the deck. I wouldn't play it without, they're just so good against Gro. And with crappy tech like Bandage, they get even better.

Happy Gilmore
01-20-2006, 04:20 PM
Wing Shards is at 4 whenever I play the deck. I wouldn't play it without, they're just so good against Gro. And with crappy tech like Bandage, they get even better.

This is exactly why a current list of wombat needs to be posted on the first page.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-21-2006, 01:43 AM
Current list updated to the first post, sans the sideboard. That's the list I'd play if I decide to take Wombat to the Duel for Duals. (the land configuration is to make Predict harder for a Gro opponent to use against you, since there's no real drawback to that configuaration anyway)

Lego
01-21-2006, 03:21 PM
I don't get how that makes it harder for them to use Predict against you? Maybe if some were Snow-Covered and some were regular... I mean, you don't want to activate Arcum's Sleigh, do you?

Phantom Ogre
01-21-2006, 06:44 PM
I don't get how that makes it harder for them to use Predict against you? Maybe if some were Snow-Covered and some were regular... I mean, you don't want to activate Arcum's Sleigh, do you?

I think you're looking at the wrong list. Jack's current build can be found at the very end, not the start, of his initial post

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-21-2006, 10:57 PM
Truth.

I'm coming increasingly to wonder if I wouldn't rather have Festival of the Guildpact than Bandage.

AnwarA101
01-22-2006, 09:34 PM
Truth.

I'm coming increasingly to wonder if I wouldn't rather have Festival of the Guildpact than Bandage.

I would rather play a real card.

Lego
01-22-2006, 09:53 PM
Truth.

I'm coming increasingly to wonder if I wouldn't rather have Festival of the Guildpact than Bandage.

I would rather play a real card.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. I stopped playing the deck when you put in Bandage. Makes me sad.

Wynk
01-23-2006, 12:25 AM
instead of bandage or festival, how about plain old boring raise the alarm? It works early game providing instant blockers, and if you survive to lay down a humility, its value shoots up even more.

towishimp
01-23-2006, 12:43 AM
The idea behind Bandage and Festival of the GP is that they cantrip, which makes up for their wimpy effect. I think Bandage is mostly there as an answer to Lackey, which has been discussed earlier in the thread.

That said, I've never seen the need to run Bandage, myself. It's nice to have an answer for that dreaded turn 1 Lackey, but I've won a fair share of the games in which he went unanswered.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-23-2006, 02:52 AM
I think it's worthwhile to actually consider a card on it's own merits within the deck rather than dismiss it out of hand because it's previously been disregarded as trash. The card does several things. It lets you dig into your deck earlier in the game than you could otherwise. It also provides additional fodder for Wing Shards, improving the card. And while preserving 1 life may not seem like a big deal (although Festival can do much more), the bits and pieces that Bandage and Renewed Faith save can mean the difference between stabilizing at 2 or 3 and dying right then and there.

bigbear102
01-23-2006, 02:03 PM
Having played this deck quite a bit, with and without Bandage, I can say that it is a very good card. It's not essential to the deck, but it does make it run a bit smoother. It is a 1cc cantrip. It adds to Wing Shards, which is possibly the best thing it does, and Jack is right, stabilizing at 2 or 3 happens a lot, and this card does help. I would say that the Bandage slot is at odds with the Gilded Light slot, just because they are both reactive spells that are cheap, but Bandage has the cantrip, which is why I throw it in over Light normally.

towishimp
01-23-2006, 04:33 PM
I would say that the Bandage slot is at odds with the Gilded Light slot, just because they are both reactive spells that are cheap, but Bandage has the cantrip, which is why I throw it in over Light normally.

I disagree. The two cards do very different things. Gilded Light may be another "garbage" card that happens to work very nicely in the deck, but they fulfill two very different roles. I thought that this deck would roll over and die to combo, but with 4x Abeyance and 3x Gilded Light maindecked, my combo matchup is winable (provided you can mount some pressure with an early Decree). I wouldn't play the deck without Gilded Light unless I knew that there was very little combo running around.

bigbear102
01-23-2006, 05:30 PM
I wasn't saying that the roles which the two cards fulfull are the same, I was saying that they occupy the same slot because they are both cards that the deck can run perfectly fine without. It is very hard to find room for extra cards in this deck because the removal takes up so many slots, and having both Bandage and Gilded Light is very hard to do. If there is a lot of combo in your meta, play Light, if there is more aggro, play Bandage, it's that simple.

You should also have absolutely no problem against combo with the tech board. If you are afraid of combo that is your best bet, as it completely destroys it. Gilded Light is definately a decent card, but what I was saying is that against Bandage, it doesn't seem as good or necessary. Playing both isn't a bad idea, but I can't find room to fit in both.

AnwarA101
01-23-2006, 09:11 PM
I think it's worthwhile to actually consider a card on it's own merits within the deck rather than dismiss it out of hand because it's previously been disregarded as trash. The card does several things. It lets you dig into your deck earlier in the game than you could otherwise. It also provides additional fodder for Wing Shards, improving the card. And while preserving 1 life may not seem like a big deal (although Festival can do much more), the bits and pieces that Bandage and Renewed Faith save can mean the difference between stabilizing at 2 or 3 and dying right then and there.

I didn't mean to be flippant about your choice of cards in Bandage or Festival of the Guildpact, but both seem less than stellar choices. The previous versions with Secludded Steppe seemed so much better. In a pinch they could be played for lands otherwise they could be cycled for 1 mana the same as Bandage or Festival. Granted that Bandage and Festival work great with Wing Shards, but isn't Wing Shards strong enough to be run by itself.

Lego
01-24-2006, 12:18 AM
The Steppes are still there. It's -1 Steppe, -3 Gilded Light for +4 Bandage, I believe.

EDIT: I agree that they are suboptimal. I actually prefer the Lights, but I always worry about combo anyway.

Tao
02-06-2006, 08:19 PM
- About Bandage vs. Gilded Light. Bandage is really useful, it ups the storm count, stops Lackey and is an early cantrip. My flaming was when you started playing 4 Bandage, 4 Festival of the Guildpact, which was no good idea. Anyway, I don't play it, but it is definetely a playable card, maybe a 3-of

- I don't know if that has been stated before, but RoP:Red should always be maindecked at least 3 times, as it is the only way to have a chance vs Rift-Decks

- So, now the important part:

What about Wastelands and Factory and Crucible in this Deck. The Deck can easily cut 10 Plains for 4 Wastes, 4 Factories and 2 Fetchlands. There are still about 10-11 Plains in the Deck, which is absolutely enough. For the 2 Crucibles you can cut one Decree as you have new Winoptions in Mishra's Factory and another random Card. With this Build you should always play 20-21 Lands.

Something like:
- 9 Plains (here we go)
- 1 Decree
- 2 Meta-Cards
+ 2 Crucible
+ 4 Wasteland
+ 4 Factory
+ 2 Fetchland

Why should you do that?

Wastelands:
- they can be really good vs Gro, if you Waste sth. before they have a creature out, or when you destroyed one
- good vs Landstill, as you draw more cards than they, their Standstills turn to be more bad than ever
- gives you at least 5% of chance vs. Coffer's Control while playtesting with yourself
- really good vs. randomly screwed people, vs random decks, or to keep gobbos away from white mana etc
- the con is, that saccing a Wasteland seems to be against the basic strategy of the deck, but really really often you can hurt your opponent more than yourself

Factory:
- gives you a faster clock and the biggest man on the board with Humility

Crucible:
- Recurring Wastelands and Factories
- Another Fetchengine without paying 5 Mana in the upkeep with a Fetchland
- Great vs. Armageddon or Flashfires

towishimp
02-06-2006, 08:48 PM
My gut reaction is to say no. When I first started testing the deck, I had wastelands in there, and using them almost never seemed like it helped me much. Against aggro decks, your main goal is to build up your mana base so you can cast your powerful spells. I admit that once the crucible is out, it's a powerful lategame machine...but you have to get to the lategame first.

All that said, I will test it. I can't dismiss the idea until I've tested it. New ideas are never a bad thing.

Alfred
02-08-2006, 05:38 PM
I would heartily disagree with Wastelands. It doesn't make sense in probably the most control deck that could ever be played. You are wasting your own land drop by playing it, and you won't even be able to use the semi-time walk that it offers. Against Gro, a single wasteland won't stop them from cantripping into another land, while beating you in the face with 3/3 untargetable creatures. Against any matchup, you want to be progressing deeper into the late game, rather than keeping the game stalled in the early game.

Also, I wouldn't add any other non-basic lands other than the cycling lands, simply because you don't want to be slowed down by wastelands.


I didn't mean to be flippant about your choice of cards in Bandage or Festival of the Guildpact, but both seem less than stellar choices. The previous versions with Secludded Steppe seemed so much better. In a pinch they could be played for lands otherwise they could be cycled for 1 mana the same as Bandage or Festival. Granted that Bandage and Festival work great with Wing Shards, but isn't Wing Shards strong enough to be run by itself.

I've found that Wings Shards is actually one of the best cards in the deck. Not only does it garner CA, it's a bomb against control decks and Gro decks. I think the main reason to run MWC in tournaments is that it would have a good game against Goblins as well as Gro.

spiritmage788
02-12-2006, 04:35 PM
I am running Tithe over Secluded Steppe, for the following reasons:

1. It has a good chance of getting 2 Plains early on, assuming you draw first, which is all the time. This helps to ensure you don't miss any of those essential early land-drops.
2. Plains/Tithe as your two starting mana cards are better than Plains/Secluded Steppe- you get three lands instead of two.
3. It is a spell, so it can help with Wing Shards.
4. Secluded Steppe, if played, is vulnerable to Wasteland and comes into play tapped. Bah!
5. It helps against what I see as one of the decks greatest weaknesses: Armageddon/Flashfires.

What do you think?

Lukas Preuss
02-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Just wondering: If you have Humility on the table, can you still plainscycle your Eternal Dragons or do they lose their ability?

Might be a stupid question, but I'm actually not sure, so thanks in advance for an answer... ;)

Slay
02-13-2006, 04:59 PM
You can still cycle it.
-Slay

Zilla
02-13-2006, 05:11 PM
Humility only affects creatures in play, not in hand or graveyard or anywhere else.

spiritmage788
02-13-2006, 05:24 PM
You can do anything/everything you can normally do with an Eternal Dragon while you have Humility in play. It's just not very useful if you cast it...

Bane of the Living
02-13-2006, 07:29 PM
Humility is usually the call if people are playing survival decks but these seemed to die out alittle. Moat is usually the card you want instead.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-13-2006, 11:42 PM
Moat has savage awesomeness when your primary win condition is DoJ cycling.

I don't like Tithe as it should never really get more than one land, and deck thinning is crap. I'd rather drop the lands for free than pay W for it.

I've been working on a list splashing Green for better win conditions. Green gives you manlands that make Mishra's Factory weep in shame.

spiritmage788
02-14-2006, 01:13 AM
The way I see it, in the first few turns Tithe should always get you two lands. Also, when you pay one white mana for it, then put the land into play, your lands look exactly like they would have if you had simply played a Secluded Steppe tapped, so the "cost" is the same. Plus, no Wastelands doing nasty things. If you don't need more lands later, Wing Shards means it still has punch.

I'd like to hear how the green splash turns out.

frogboy
02-14-2006, 02:10 AM
Well, when you're on the play, skipping a land drop to get an extra land in hand isn't really the most amazing play you can make, particularly when you're already scrambling to make like your first five.

scrumdogg
02-14-2006, 09:35 AM
Decree of Justice is a late game card, Moat (and Humility) want to come down ASAP against any deck involving the words "Enter my Attack Phase". Meaning that you can just as easily hardcast the DoJ and make fliers in that late game. Also, your other primary win condition (other than your opponent having an aneurysm) flies.....as does the Angel out of the board.... Moat has worked quite well up here in the deck.

Lukas Preuss
02-14-2006, 10:04 AM
Decree of Justice is a late game card, Moat (and Humility) want to come down ASAP against any deck involving the words "Enter my Attack Phase". Meaning that you can just as easily hardcast the DoJ and make fliers in that late game. Also, your other primary win condition (other than your opponent having an aneurysm) flies.....as does the Angel out of the board.... Moat has worked quite well up here in the deck.

If you have Moat and Humility on the table asap, your Angels and Dragons will be turned into 1/1 dudes without flying. Even if you hardcast your Decree in the late game.

Moat and Humility are awful together, if you want to win with creatures eventually.

spiritmage788
02-14-2006, 11:34 AM
Well, when you're on the play, skipping a land drop to get an extra land in hand isn't really the most amazing play you can make, particularly when you're already scrambling to make like your first five.

I have never been "on the play" while playing this deck. The point is to draw first, not play first, and practically everyone else will choose to play first if they win the coin flip / die roll / whatever. Tithe works perfectly in this situation.

scrumdogg
02-14-2006, 02:01 PM
I have never been "on the play" while playing this deck. The point is to draw first, not play first, and practically everyone else will choose to play first if they win the coin flip / die roll / whatever. Tithe works perfectly in this situation.

Very true, and to address Lukas (very good) point, we sideboarded or removed the Humilities altogether for the Moats. Moat > Humility with some rare exceptions involving obscure creature combos, Survival, and the occassional goblin long game.

Zilla
02-14-2006, 02:49 PM
Moat > Humility with some rare exceptions involving obscure creature combos, Survival, and the occassional goblin long game.
What about decks with... whaddyacallit... flying creatures? Like, uh... Thresh, for example. Or Angel Stompy. Personally, I'd much rather see Moat than Humility on the opposite side of the table in those situations. Also, I'd assert that Moat is worse in the Thresh matchup, because it forces you to harcast Decree, which gives your opponent the opportunity to counter it. Cycling Decree at EOT is so good against so many decks, Moat just seems like an awful tradeoff, particularly when it's strictly worse against Survival.

My Name Is Scott
02-14-2006, 03:06 PM
What about decks with... whaddyacallit... flying creatures? Like, uh... Thresh, for example. Or Angel Stompy. Personally, I'd much rather see Moat than Humility on the opposite side of the table in those situations. Also, I'd assert that Moat is worse in the Thresh matchup, because it forces you to harcast Decree, which gives your opponent the opportunity to counter it. Cycling Decree at EOT is so good against so many decks, Moat just seems like an awful tradeoff, particularly when it's strictly worse against Survival.
I'm currently running two of each in the main. Moat is AMAZING against gro. It gives them only the flying creature out(you play removal...). Not only can you wait to get abeyances+doj for the win, but you can keep casting eternal dragon. They can't draw counters every turn. You can also just sit aroudn and wait for them to deck. Moat+humility is also good in this situation(they have less cards and no outs). I've won at least 3 games in testing like that. Moat is definately worth running because it says "I win!" so often.

I would also play first most of the time, considering hitting 4 mana is so goddamn important.

Slay
02-14-2006, 03:07 PM
Moat's only real advantage over Humility is that it shuts down Equipment. Other than that, it's far too easy to bypass, especially since Wombat doesn't have any counters to deal with threats that suddenly pop up.

Also, as to Tithe, I kind of like the idea, but it's also just another Plains in the lategame. As opposed to Steppe or Mind Stone, which becomes another card. Which is why I'm hesitant.

And on that note, two squirrels are humping each other outside my window. Happy Valentine's Day!
-Slay

Nightmare
02-14-2006, 03:24 PM
6 minutes between double posts... Niiiice.

scrumdogg
02-14-2006, 04:30 PM
Quite frankly, Angel Stompy is not a concern in my meta or most any other meta. I like the deck, but it sees very little play and has 4-8 flying creatures max...I thought the strength of Wombat was it's ability to kill critters.....see also, Gro, which has, maybe, 3 flying creatures max. Yeah, that's gonna stress me out something fierce. Flying creatures are a concern, but a very minor concern in a deck so full of removal & also containing not only flying creatures, but recursable flying creatures.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-14-2006, 05:02 PM
I don't think the Goblin bombardment via SGC-Sharpshooter plan is acually that slow. Especially if they've already gotten you down in life total. But more importantly, while Moat could be argued to be more powerful defensively than Humility, having to fight around it yourself seems quite weak. I've lost games to my opponents' Moats several times.

Of course, maindeck Disenchant changes the argument a bit. I'm not currently running any, but the ability to disenchant your own Moat before swinging with DoJ tokens would improve the card's strength. I'd certainly be interested in seeing decklists of alternate builds running Moat.

Zilla
02-14-2006, 05:04 PM
I'm currently running two of each in the main. Moat is AMAZING against gro.
How is it any more amazing than Humility? Humility means that all ten of their threats are 1/1 creatures. If you can't deal with that, your build sucks.


It gives them only the flying creature out(you play removal...).
Massive flying beaters are still more of an out than 1/1 groundpounders by a longshot.


You can also just sit aroudn and wait for them to deck.
First opf all, they can do the same thing to you. You're running more cantrips than they are by far. Second, that's an excellent way to draw games at tournament. Good plan.


Moat+humility is also good in this situation(they have less cards and no outs).
Moat + Humility is terrible. You have no outs. Your plan is honestly to deck every Gro opponent you come up against? You'll draw literally every match you play at a tournament that way. Sounds like a totally solid plan, dude. :rolleyes:

Slay
02-14-2006, 06:25 PM
Of course, maindeck Disenchant changes the argument a bit. I'm not currently running any, but the ability to disenchant your own Moat before swinging with DoJ tokens would improve the card's strength. I'd certainly be interested in seeing decklists of alternate builds running Moat.

DoJ tokens attacking after Moat seems a lot weaker than triple Eternal Dragons attacking after Humility.
-Slay

towishimp
02-15-2006, 01:33 AM
I tested Moat when I first got onto this deck, and not being able to win with decree is indeed very annoying. So annoying that I cut it. The way I see it, the goal against anything that attacks is to play Humility on turn 4. If you must have a second enchantment to "hard lock" your opponent, add Reverence. I play is a very goblin-y metagame, so it usually is okay to draw the one I play. And then, after I've killed a dozen goblins or so and feel like winning, decree still works. Might be worth checking out.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-15-2006, 03:53 AM
Given that the deck needs a way to win faster, not to stall more, as time is already it's greatest weakness in tournament play, I'm just going to flat-out abandon the Moat discussion. I believe Moat to be a very strong card, but this is not the deck for it.


Towards the end of winning within 50 minutes without having to go 2-0;

Irish Wombats


// Lands
2 [ST] Forest (4)
9 [OD] Plains (3)
3 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [RAV] Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree

// Creatures
3 [ON] Krosan Tusker
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
3 [SC] Wing Shards
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OV] Abeyance
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
3 [B] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [RAV] Seed Spark

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Exalted Angel
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 2 [SC] Gilded Light


The Manabase;

Robust enough to support the splash of green cards, with 9 actual green mana sources, Eternal Dragon, various dig cards, and Sensei's Divining Top.
Nantuko Monastery: Uncounterable, unwrathable, unhumiliated 4/4 First Strike who puts a stop to Jitte nonsense real quick-like.
Vitu Ghazi: Creates an army under Humility. Doesn't get Swordsed when it's activated, unlike Monastery, and doesn't prompy a much of graveyard hate on top of Monastery + E. Dragon already.

Eternal Dragon: Yup, still amazing.
Krosan Tusker: I loveded you, piggy. I loveded you. This is the card I got laughed at most for last Saturday when I played this at the Frog, but it does something very important; it guarantees (well, facilitates) set ups into 4th turn Humility/Wrath, both in the situations where you've got one but no mana, or when you have mana but no Humility/Wrath, or even when you have neither.

Divining Top: With 14 shuffling effects, it becomes very optimal dig. I regret not being able to use Sylvan Library, but I don't want to be hurt too bad by my own Vengeances.

Akroma's Vengeance: Still good.

Seed Spark: Helps win faster and can provide card advantage. Not totally dead when you have no targets, as you can always activate Top to draw a card, then Seed Spark with that on the stack to net parity and 2 1/1s.

Removal: Yeah, standard package for MWC. See page one for explanations.

Gaea's Blessing: Don't have to worry about decking or using up your answers against control. A two mana shuffle/cantrip effect that also lets you increase threat or answer density in your library with surprising effectiveness. Makes absolutely sure that you do not fall victim to a DoJ gap in control matchups.

Tao
02-15-2006, 06:57 AM
Now we have a reason why you are flaming on Wastelands and Ports in the Gobbo -Thread :D

Yeah, I really like this one. It is far better than my Factory-Build. I'd like to suggest "Rancored Rabit Wombat" as name for this : )

Blessing is amazing, so are Monestary and Vitu-Ghazi. [But note that Monestary does not stop Jitte Madness under Humility, the Monestary loses First Strike under Humility, though it is still 4/4]. Edit: That is wrong. It has first strike.

But with this build I would be worried to fight Rift. Without the Rune you have only 2 Outs (Seed Spark) for 4 Rifts. Though you can use them again, it seems to be a problem, as Rift is still very popular.

What is your plan against Geddon from Gro in G2 and G3? Karmic Justice seems to be not optimal if they have 2 Mongeese out.

Obfuscate Freely
02-15-2006, 10:57 AM
But note that Monestary does not stop Jitte Madness under Humility, the Monestary loses First Strike under Humility, though it is still 4/4.
This is incorrect. source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc61)

The layers handle different effects in this order:
(1) Copy effects—Dimir Doppelganger, Clone
(2) Control-changing effects—Control Magic, Threaten
(3) Text-changing effects—Swirl the Mists, Artificial Evolution
(4) Type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects—Dream Thrush, Neurok Transmuter
(5) All other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness—Shifting Sky, Darkest Hour
(6) Power- and/or toughness-changing effects—Sorceress Queen, Blanchwood Armor
With each layer, you handle characteristic-setting abilities (Crimson Kobolds) first. [CR 418.5a] Then you handle things in timestamp order (generally the order things entered play) unless a dependency (which we'll cover another time) forces an adjustment. [CR 418.5b-g]
Humility's "each creature loses all abilities" line applies in layer 5, as does Monastery's First Strike. Assuming you activate Monastery after Humility enters play, timestamp will let the First Strike stay.

There are several minor tweaks in how the layering system works. One simple one is that if something applies in multiple layers, you apply each part in the respective layer (such as Wild Mongrel's color change in #5 and +1/+1 in #6). Effects for layer #4 used to have a special exemption that no longer applies.
This change is what made manlands work under Humility. The activated ability of Monastery, or any similar manland, is a type-changing effect, so all of its effects used to be applied in layer 4, in time for Humility to wipe them all out. Now, since each effect of the ability applies in its respective layer, manlands beat Humility soundly.

calosso
02-15-2006, 12:56 PM
Since the new change to rabid wombat, how has your match-up changed? I think the goblins match-up may be be the same, but what about landstill, and gro?

towishimp
02-15-2006, 01:03 PM
TIBA, I like the green splash. It gives you a way to win faster. Particularly, I like that now the deck can put combo on a pretty quick clock. I could often stop them once or twice with Abeyance/Gilded Light, but they'd just sit back, build up, and go off again. This helps with that. I'm gonna start testing it.

Evil Roopey
02-15-2006, 01:11 PM
Given that the deck needs a way to win faster, not to stall more, as time is already it's greatest weakness in tournament play, I'm just going to flat-out abandon the Moat discussion. I believe Moat to be a very strong card, but this is not the deck for it.


Towards the end of winning within 50 minutes without having to go 2-0;

Irish Wombats


// Lands
2 [ST] Forest (4)
9 [OD] Plains (3)
3 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [RAV] Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree

// Creatures
3 [ON] Krosan Tusker
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
3 [SC] Wing Shards
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OV] Abeyance
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
3 [B] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [RAV] Seed Spark

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Exalted Angel
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 2 [SC] Gilded Light


The Manabase;

Robust enough to support the splash of green cards, with 9 actual green mana sources, Eternal Dragon, various dig cards, and Sensei's Divining Top.
Nantuko Monastery: Uncounterable, unwrathable, unhumiliated 4/4 First Strike who puts a stop to Jitte nonsense real quick-like.
Vitu Ghazi: Creates an army under Humility. Doesn't get Swordsed when it's activated, unlike Monastery, and doesn't prompy a much of graveyard hate on top of Monastery + E. Dragon already.

Eternal Dragon: Yup, still amazing.
Krosan Tusker: I loveded you, piggy. I loveded you. This is the card I got laughed at most for last Saturday when I played this at the Frog, but it does something very important; it guarantees (well, facilitates) set ups into 4th turn Humility/Wrath, both in the situations where you've got one but no mana, or when you have mana but no Humility/Wrath, or even when you have neither.

Divining Top: With 14 shuffling effects, it becomes very optimal dig. I regret not being able to use Sylvan Library, but I don't want to be hurt too bad by my own Vengeances.

Akroma's Vengeance: Still good.

Seed Spark: Helps win faster and can provide card advantage. Not totally dead when you have no targets, as you can always activate Top to draw a card, then Seed Spark with that on the stack to net parity and 2 1/1s.

Removal: Yeah, standard package for MWC. See page one for explanations.

Gaea's Blessing: Don't have to worry about decking or using up your answers against control. A two mana shuffle/cantrip effect that also lets you increase threat or answer density in your library with surprising effectiveness. Makes absolutely sure that you do not fall victim to a DoJ gap in control matchups.
Can this list actually win in 50 minutes? It looks slightly more agressive, but still seems kinda slow. Seed Spark is nuts. And has Wasteland been a problem in the Goblin match yet?

Can you explain why the green splash is stronger than say black, red, or blue? I'm not seeing it being better than black and red. But if you have good reasonings for it, I will go along with it. I think the black splash seems much more interesting as well as giving you your answers to combo with ease.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-15-2006, 02:20 PM
Due to it's dependance on drawing cycling cards, I've never found single Rift to be a big clock. I plan on beating them with hardcast fatties, DoJ tokens, and manlands, which I can get back after death with Gaea's Blessing. The ability to not have to worry about rationing your DoJs is huge in a White Control on White Control matchup, even if they are packing Slice and Dice.

The mana base is also easier to balance than Rift, as my Fetchland can grab basics of either type. My win conditions aren't counterable, either, and I can cut down on the number of actual cyclers to just the ones that are actually good. I can also kill non-Goblin creatures if there isn't a Humility in play.

I haven't tested the Black splash. I'm seeing Vindicate, Duress, Gerrard's Verdict, Haunting Echoes and Mortify, but I'd still have to actually test it.

Note that Gaea's Blessing can also hit the opponent's graveyard against Threshold. I'd likely only do it the first time, but it's another stall tactic, as are uncounterable Monasteries that win combat with Mongeese and Werebears, and chump blocking Saporlings.

My plan against Geddon is the same it's always been. I prefer to keep mana untapped and threaten DoJ in response, on top of keeping their board clear of creatures. I can always cycle a Tusker or two in response if need be. If I really suspect Geddon I tend to slow play my lands, or Abeyance on the upkeep.

Alfred
02-15-2006, 06:11 PM
How has your game been against Wastelands? I actually like the list quite a bit, it has definately been well thought out. I have a small peice of tech for you, which works quite well with Sensei's Divining-Top: Thawing Glaciers. You get a free shuffle every 2 turns, and you never miss a land drop, which means you can run even LESS lands. I think that it would deserve a little bit of testing at least, (it is a little slow).

Wynk
02-16-2006, 11:32 AM
I like the green splash. Good luck with it. How about a blue splash for wombat as well? Put in 4 compulsion, mix the land base, and add in 3 or so of spirit cairn.

Whenever a player discards a card you may pay w. If so, put a 1/1 flying spirit creature token into play.

Since cycling discards a card, and with all the cyclers and compulsions in the deck, it should act as a fairly reliable token creator.

3 wrath - removal
3 humility - makes sure you're tokens can trade with anything
3 wing shards - still an awesome card vs. control decks
3 swords - very useful spot removal
3 ghostly prison - fills a useful role early game

3 spirit cairn - reliably creates tokens due to discard. Combos well.
3 Decree of justice - combat trick and win condition
3 eternal dragon - recurring cyclers

4 compulsion - makes every card a cycler. May be slow but it helps speed through the deck.
4 abeyance - counter protection/card draw
3 rune of protection red - it cycles and protects against rifter/burn/gobs
2 disenchants - slot could be anything.

23 lands

11 plains
6 islands
2 tundras
4 flooded strand

The compulsions might be too slow. But they self cycle and help you find answers quickly.

Alfred
02-16-2006, 01:04 PM
I played about 8-9 games against threshold, and that matchup was VERY poor with the WG deck. I won only 2 games both pre and post board. I think Chalices are required in the sideboard. Also, I was having problems getting to threshold in order to use Nantuko Monastery, I think the deck warrants the inclusion of Renewed Faith to fill up the grave, and keep you alive a bit longer. I would probably take the Krosan Tuskers right out of the deck, because they felt clunky.

Vitu-Ghazi was great, however. It made the threshold player overextend into abeyance-wrath in a few games.

Koby
02-16-2006, 02:32 PM
Is there any reason why you play Vitu-Ghazi rather than Kjeldoran Outpost? Sure it does make you sac a plains, but it still taps for W and costs half as much to make dorks. I'd rather sacrifice a plains in the GW version (since it's so easy to find land with Dragon & Tusker) to get out an Outpost running by turn 4 rather than wait for turn 5.

Alfred
02-16-2006, 04:10 PM
Kjedoran Outpost is a lot worse than Vitu-Ghazi, because it it gets wasted, you lose 2 lands instead of one. Plus it sets you back tempo-wise.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-16-2006, 11:33 PM
Alfred touched on some of the major reasons. It also doesn't occupy a land slot, and losing a Plains when you only have one or two White sources can be a pain. The tempo loss caused overall is not made up by the slight tempo gain in 1/1 production.

I'm genuinely surprised to hear that the Threshold matchup got worse, as the only relevant card removed was Renewed Faith, and several of the cards added were very relevant. Is it possible this is a fluke of testing?

Alfred
02-17-2006, 02:35 PM
I think that the absence of Renewed Faith is one of the reasons they were able to race me more effectively. I would take the Tuskers out of the deck, 3 mana is far too much of a tempo setback to justify, and doesn't fill the grave up fast enough for Nantuko Monestary to become active in the Thresh Matchup. Also, the removal of Bandage/Festival of the Guildpact was QUITE notable, simply because, as I'm sure you know, Wing Shards is by far the best card in this matchup, and the inability to cast both on turn 4 was one of the reasons the Thresh matchup seemed so brutal.

spiritmage788
02-18-2006, 07:09 PM
I've not done the extensive testing that TIBA and others have done, but I'm not liking the green splash too much. The fact that Wombat was mono-colored and contained no non-basic lands was one of the things that drew me to it in the first place. I would hate for it to lose those traits.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-08-2006, 07:14 PM
My hope is renewed on the mono-white build.

From MTGSalvation:

"Stratas de Scrutation"
Snow Land
T: Add to your mana pool
1*S*, T: Look at the top card of your library. If it's a snow card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand. ( can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.)


Snow-Covered Plains are, of course, snow cards that produce snow mana. It seems like the mid-to-late-game card advantage/mana smoothing the deck wants. While it doesn't make the deck any faster or help with the combo matchup, with enough shoring up of the percentages elsewhere...

Alfred
06-08-2006, 10:28 PM
My hope is renewed on the mono-white build.

From MTGSalvation:

"Stratas de Scrutation"
Snow Land
T: Add to your mana pool
1*S*, T: Look at the top card of your library. If it's a snow card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand. ( can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.)


Snow-Covered Plains are, of course, snow cards that produce snow mana. It seems like the mid-to-late-game card advantage/mana smoothing the deck wants. While it doesn't make the deck any faster or help with the combo matchup, with enough shoring up of the percentages elsewhere...

That is an absolutely awesome card. I've been thinking a lot about this card in particular, as it is the first card since Ghost Council that has really piqued my interest in the card-power department. I was thinking about it in a Mono Blue Control deck, as it's ability is instant-speed, but mono white could also be a good deck to plop it into.

One problem for Wombat is the fact that it only runs 19 S-C Plains (probably drop a couple of them for this which is also snow-covered), which means that this thing would only be hitting 1/3 of the time. Obviously it would be hoping against hope to get a Snow-Covered finisher as good as DoJ or Eternal Dragon, but I still think that it would probably be good enough even if it did work on only 1/3 of all of the cards.

But wait! Think of how great the synergy is with Sensei's Divining Top! Top would almost guarantee that you would be drawing a land every turn with this thing, and it also helps you find it! It's sort of like a cheap, virtually unkillable Jayemdae Tomb. Throw in the shuffling of Eternal Dragon and lots of cyclers to help out with the top, and you have a superb card advantage engine.

I'm going to playtest a bit to see how it works.

dontbiteitholmes
06-24-2006, 08:18 PM
Looks like WOTC has been reading Jack's letters to Santa again...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24312&stc=1&d=1150909261

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-26-2006, 12:10 AM
This deck is coming together nicely.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/343

I'm currently thinking of reducing the amount of cantripping, adding a few more power spells, and relying more on Strata + Top + E. Dragon + DoJ for forms of card advantage... although Abeyance might have to stay. 19x Snow-Covered Plains, 3x Strata, 1x this thing as an additional finisher? I'm not actually sure if this thing is good or not right now, all I know is it's legitimately uber badass. Too bad about Wizards breaking it's own rules about lands tapping for mana... although this thing's flavorful enough to make up for it, in all fairness.

Alfred
06-26-2006, 01:54 AM
This deck is coming together nicely.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/343

I'm currently thinking of reducing the amount of cantripping, adding a few more power spells, and relying more on Strata + Top + E. Dragon + DoJ for forms of card advantage... although Abeyance might have to stay. 19x Snow-Covered Plains, 3x Strata, 1x this thing as an additional finisher? I'm not actually sure if this thing is good or not right now, all I know is it's legitimately uber badass. Too bad about Wizards breaking it's own rules about lands tapping for mana... although this thing's flavorful enough to make up for it, in all fairness.

It does looks cool, but in all seriousness, it requires 30 mana and doesn't do anything else.

EDIT: Also, I'm glad you've come to realize that Strata + Top is f-ing retarded.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-26-2006, 02:27 AM
Is this another argument for Moat + Angels over Humility?

Alfred
06-26-2006, 06:34 AM
Is this another argument for Moat + Angels over Humility?

I don't understand :confused:


EDIT: Oh, Dark Depths? It depends. Do you want to spend 27 mana on something that does very little else just to have it wastelanded right before it becomes Merit Lage? I know not every deck has Wasteland, but it still costs 30 to activate, which is absurd.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-26-2006, 07:02 AM
I'm not sure if you saw the picture or not.

Alfred
06-26-2006, 07:27 AM
I'm not sure if you saw the picture or not.

I stand corrected.

Tao
06-26-2006, 09:42 AM
I don't know which of these 2 new cards sucks more, but I think the Pseudo-Warth is worse.This Tomb of Marit-Large is only one Mulligan while the Wrath will Hymn to Tourach yourself. And Hymn to Tourach on yourself is never a good idea, you can ask any Deadguy player.

Scrying Strata looks really great. I think it should be a 4-off.

Whit3 Ghost
06-26-2006, 10:31 AM
I'm not sure if you saw the picture or not.
I need new pants

Phantom
06-26-2006, 10:31 AM
I don't know which of these 2 new cards sucks more, but I think the Pseudo-Warth is worse.This Tomb of Marit-Large is only one Mulligan while the Wrath will Hymn to Tourach yourself. And Hymn to Tourach on yourself is never a good idea, you can ask any Deadguy player.

This is the logic I used when FoW was released. Who would want to duress themselves just to counter one measly spell? Duressing yourself is never a good idea, you can ask any Deadguy player.

quicksilver
06-26-2006, 10:39 AM
I don't know which of these 2 new cards sucks more, but I think the Pseudo-Warth is worse.This Tomb of Marit-Large is only one Mulligan while the Wrath will Hymn to Tourach yourself. And Hymn to Tourach on yourself is never a good idea, you can ask any Deadguy player.

Scrying Strata looks really great. I think it should be a 4-off.

It does cost you three cards to wrath but you can probably make this card disadvantage up by killing cretures in multiples. If you only kill three creatures with it then you have not lost any card advantage, while you're spending zero mana and they are spending a few turns worth of mana most likely.

tivadar
06-26-2006, 10:40 AM
This is the logic I used when FoW was released. Who would want to duress themselves just to counter one measly spell? Duressing yourself is never a good idea, you can ask any Deadguy player.

In my opinion, this can't be compared to fow. The question really comes down to "what would I want to wrath turns 1-3 for two additional cards that I wouldn't just want to wrath turn 4 for no additional cards?" Even gobbo kills T4, so I can't think of a good answer to this question. It's sorcery speed, so you won't be wrathing twice in the same turn, unlike using say counterspell then a FOW. And also, FOW is meant for use against combo decks that like to go off before your turn 2, are there really any aggro decks that like to go off before your turn 4, especially when considering STP and wing shards? We've had this discussion elsewhere, and the one circumstance I can see is decks running a lot of land destruction. But even so, you're really giving yourself major card disadvantage for what you're getting in return. While it might prevent you from dying, it will probably really just delay you losing the game.

bigbear102
06-26-2006, 11:43 AM
The new wrath is actually probably worth a couple of slots at least, it lets you not die to a Goblin rush, and actually does act like FoW being able to play 2 wraths in 1 turn, against Gro you can Wrath, then cast this guy, seems good to me if you need to get rid of a couple of pesky geese.

If this pans out at all I may be bringing this to GenCon, but that'll take a lot of testing before then.

tivadar
06-26-2006, 11:46 AM
It's a sorcery... Why would you want to play 2 wraths in 1 turn unless your opponent has a vial out? Wouldn't the first wrath take care of the geese?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-26-2006, 01:18 PM
a) You want to go Wrath- Humility against Goblins. Because if you do this turn 4, you've already made card advantage > their deck.

b) You want to go RoP, Wrath.

c) You want to go Abeyance, Wrath (against Gro with double/triple beats going down)

d) The first Wrath gets countered.


Also, realistically, seven mana just isn't that much to Wombat if it's gameplan has gone correctly.

Tao
06-26-2006, 01:50 PM
2 handcards are way too much, no matter what.

If you don't have a RoP or Humility against Gobbos following you will still lose to their card advantage. If it gets countered by Gro you are fucked. If you Wrath like this against deadguy you will have absolutely nothing left of your hand.

2 handcards are just too much.

Alfred
06-26-2006, 03:02 PM
2 handcards are way too much, no matter what.

If you don't have a RoP or Humility against Gobbos following you will still lose to their card advantage. If it gets countered by Gro you are fucked. If you Wrath like this against deadguy you will have absolutely nothing left of your hand.

2 handcards are just too much.

Removing Abeyance and an extra Dragon to wrath away the board and do something else with the mana is rediculous. Also, the regular (or should I say alternative) mana cost isn't nearly as prohibitive as you may think. With Strata/SDT you start recouping the cards you lost, you're looking at something that is pretty damn good.

Phantom
06-26-2006, 03:31 PM
2 handcards are way too much, no matter what.


You may even be right about the card in question, but this sort of hyperbole is going to ruin your point, if you do have a valid one.

frogboy
06-26-2006, 04:30 PM
Trading three for three or even three for two is a fair trade when you get even on tempo and start playing your bombs. It also lets you Wrath on turn four around Rishadan Port.

Tao
06-27-2006, 07:11 AM
You may even be right about the card in question, but this sort of hyperbole is going to ruin your point, if you do have a valid one.

But this IS my point. Tempo advantage is always nice, but you can't pay every price for it. 2 cards are too much in general. And therefore it is bad in many matchups.

It is bad vs. Gobbos if you don't follow with Humility or RoP:Red because they will draw cards with Ringleader while your cycling engine is RFG. And if you have a Wrath effect plus Humility/ RoP you would have won 8/10 games anyway.

It is extremely bad vs Gro if they counter it.

It is bad vs deadguy because you will have to RFG your whole hand.

scrumdogg
06-27-2006, 09:54 AM
But this IS my point. Tempo advantage is always nice, but you can't pay every price for it. 2 cards are too much in general. And therefore it is bad in many matchups.

It is bad vs. Gobbos if you don't follow with Humility or RoP:Red because they will draw cards with Ringleader while your cycling engine is RFG. And if you have a Wrath effect plus Humility/ RoP you would have won 8/10 games anyway.

It is extremely bad vs Gro if they counter it.

It is bad vs deadguy because you will have to RFG your whole hand.


I disagree with your assessments of the card disadvantage primarily because you are looking at worst case scenarios...in a vacuum...at which point the arguments shift out of hand rapidly. Realistically, versus Goblins, you should have spot removal that has slowed them down and with cycling you have a decent shot of having RoP/Humility/Moat/whatever in hand by turn 4. You also have dead cards, in every matchup, that make great fodder for a spell like this. Abeyance versus Goblins? Gone. RoP versus UGW or UGB Gro? Gone. Extra Dragon? Missed but gone. Even a Decree or extra spot removal are a fine trade to sweep their board. Gro should not be able to counter it effectively since you can bait very effectively with other removal or build into an Abeyance, if the card is used in a 'braindead' fashion, it will indeed not be effective, the situation comes down to knowing how to play control versus each of the decks in question. Versus Deadguy? Yeah, it might be a more painful choice, but they have such a slow clock you should only have to use this once, if at all. And since they have to overextend to beat you before Humility drops....free Wrath can be devastating. Back to Goblins, with this card, you greatly increase your odds of actually having a Wrath effect + a Humility/RoP, with the added bonus of potentially being to play both effects in the same turn (which should almost always be GG).

Tacosnape
06-27-2006, 11:01 AM
It is bad vs deadguy because you will have to RFG your whole hand.

I can't think of a matchup where I'd rather have this card than against Deadguy Ale, actually. It saves you from the ridiculous card swings of Confidant/Specter even while they have their land destruction going full swing. I'll gladly blow three cards I don't have the mana to cast to get rid of two cards that create card advantage for my opponent every turn.

frogboy
06-27-2006, 02:31 PM
What is this nonsense about giving up three cards? You're killing at least two men. At that point you're down the same amount of cards as Force of Will.

tivadar
06-27-2006, 02:42 PM
Ok, yes, the card advantage may break about even, but if you had just cast Wrath instead, you'd be in an even better position. On top of that, you could simply cast humility next turn (or humility this turn and wrath next) and not have to lose a billion cards. You talk about using spot removal early, there are going to be a lot of situations where you'll have to pitch that humility to this card rather than being able to cast it to save yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are situations when it could be useful, primarily when your opponent is trying to keep you off your land, but I think on the whole that this card won't see play in any competitive decks because it comes at too high a price and will rarely if ever be hardcast, the situations it will be useful in will be outnumbered by the situations when you'd rather have something else in just about every matchup.

I really just don't think this card should even been compared to FoW, they do entirely different things. Compare apples to apples and tell me why this is better than wrath of god...

Aggro_zombies
06-27-2006, 04:30 PM
I really just don't think this card should even been compared to FoW, they do entirely different things. Compare apples to apples and tell me why this is better than wrath of god...
Because turn two or three Wrath on the draw against Goblins is tech, especially if they had a turn one Lackey and you didn't have an StP to answer it. Also, killing Seige-Gang Commander 'n' Pals with this is awesome because you get a 4 for 3 without any other goblins in play.

Also, this lets you run more than four copies of Wrath in your deck, which can be useful.

Alfred
06-27-2006, 05:19 PM
Because turn two or three Wrath on the draw against Goblins is tech, especially if they had a turn one Lackey and you didn't have an StP to answer it. Also, killing Seige-Gang Commander 'n' Pals with this is awesome because you get a 4 for 3 without any other goblins in play.

What the hell are you talking about? The Seige-Gang scenario would be a 3-1 for your opponent :/

dontbiteitholmes
06-27-2006, 05:41 PM
Yes I would gladly drop 3 cards and zero mana if it would kill off 4-5 creatures and reset an opponents board position. You say Goblins can kill on turn 4. That seems like an arguement for this card more then against it. Everyone is like "OMG you could just cast Wrath instead then not lose card advantage". Ok well if you have Wrath and this in your hand and the luxury of being able to wait and cast Wrath, congrats you will be able to hardcast this in another 3 turns when they rebuild their creatures. Seriously this almost makes me want to pick up Wombat again. As far as the land it sucks in Legacy. Against 2 of the 3 most played decks (gobs/pilula) this will not have a half a chance in hell of breaking into the dreaded 20/20 and against solidarity if this flips you should have won already even with this deck.

Aggro_zombies
06-27-2006, 07:30 PM
What the hell are you talking about? The Seige-Gang scenario would be a 3-1 for your opponent :/
Maybe in terms of actual cards, but think about it this way: the tokens can be sacked to the Commander for damage, they pump up Piledrivers, and they can swing. Why would you not want to kill them?

For example:
Mountain, Lackey. (one goblin)
Land, Swing. Put a Seige-Gang Commander in play. Hardcast a Piledriver. (six goblins)
Mountain, Warchief. Swing with everyone for 20. (seven goblins)

Wrathing right after they play Piledriver and Seige-Gang Commander would drop them from six dudes to 0 and keep you from dying next turn. And even if you StP their Piledriver, they still have at least 6 dudes for a total of 8 damage to swing with next turn.

EDIT: In this example, Wrathing turn two would achieve card parity. But when you're playing a slow deck against something like Goblins, I've found it's often worth it to Wrath even with a Commander and tokens on the board because they can kill you surprisingly fast. Once you stabilize, it doesn't matter...but you have to live to get there first.

Obfuscate Freely
06-27-2006, 08:00 PM
Playing Sunscour will flat-out lose you the game against Gro. You cannot "bait with other removal" because Gro doesn't counter removal spells against Wombat, and even a resolved Sunscour will always be a 3-for-1 in Gro's favor because Gro never needs to play more than one creature against Wombat.

I find it hard to believe that Sunscour will help herald the return of Wombat to the upper tiers when it is so terrible against the best deck in the format.

Of course the card seems better against Goblins, but investing 3 cards is always going to be dangerous for a deck with no card draw. I could see this being an issue after boarding, when a Goblin opponent might have access to removal for the ROP or Humility, and a Wombat player's hand might be too depleted to deal with the second wave without those trumps.

bigbear102
06-28-2006, 10:07 AM
I really just don't think this card should even been compared to FoW, they do entirely different things. Compare apples to apples and tell me why this is better than wrath of god...

This card is not better than Wrath of God, it is a supplement to it. I would run two of these to complement Wrath of God and help out against gobbos, but I would never replace wrath with Sunscour, that would just be dumb.

This card hasn't even been tested by anyone as far as I know, and these debates have gone on for over a page, so hows about somebody tests the deck with them, and then we can make an edumacated decision on whether or not this card is worth it.

Mad Zur
06-28-2006, 12:20 PM
Also, this lets you run more than four copies of Wrath in your deck, which can be useful.
This card is not better than Wrath of God, it is a supplement to it. I'd just like to point this out:

3 [b] Wrath of God

TheDarkshineKnight
06-28-2006, 11:43 PM
This deck is coming together nicely.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/343

I'm currently thinking of reducing the amount of cantripping, adding a few more power spells, and relying more on Strata + Top + E. Dragon + DoJ for forms of card advantage... although Abeyance might have to stay. 19x Snow-Covered Plains, 3x Strata, 1x this thing as an additional finisher? I'm not actually sure if this thing is good or not right now, all I know is it's legitimately uber badass. Too bad about Wizards breaking it's own rules about lands tapping for mana... although this thing's flavorful enough to make up for it, in all fairness.

Soooo, are you still working on this? This could make Wombat actually viable. O_O

bigbear102
06-29-2006, 07:27 AM
For the record, IBA is not necessarily the end all and be all of this deck, granted he is the inventor and greatest innovator of it, I took it to a top 2 finish in a gpt, and a 5-3 at the gp, and I played 4 Wraths every time, just cuz Jack doesn't play 4 of one of the best cards in the deck doesn't mean you shouldn't, I personally will probably test 6 now that it's possible, maybe 5 with Akroma's Vengeances.

Alfred
06-29-2006, 03:30 PM
Hey Jack, do you have any more space for colorless lands in your deck? Because there's another snow land that seems pretty good:

Mouth of Ronom
Snow Land
Uncommon(?)
Tap: Add one Colorless mana
4(snow symbol) Tap, Sacrifice Mouth of Ronom: Mouth of Ronom deals 4 damage to target creature.
Daren Bader

Yeah it costs 5 to activate, but it's still removal and a land and an uncounterable way of killing Werebear. I friggin' love these new snow lands.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-02-2006, 02:58 PM
I saw that, and it seems pretty hot. Between E. Dragon and Top, I would try out maybe, 17 SCPlains, 3 Strata, 2 Mouths, but it might not pan out in testing.

Too bad Kjeldoran Outpost isn't snowcovered.

Right now I'm definitely thinking of switching to the Moat build and running maindeck Exalted Angels/the new Snow Serra Angel.

Alfred
07-02-2006, 10:32 PM
I saw that, and it seems pretty hot. Between E. Dragon and Top, I would try out maybe, 17 SCPlains, 3 Strata, 2 Mouths, but it might not pan out in testing.

Too bad Kjeldoran Outpost isn't snowcovered.

Right now I'm definitely thinking of switching to the Moat build and running maindeck Exalted Angels/the new Snow Serra Angel.

You should call this deck "Cold Wombat".

Zilla
07-03-2006, 12:10 AM
You should call this deck "Frigid Wombat".
Edited for truth.

TheDarkshineKnight
07-03-2006, 01:25 AM
You should call this deck "OMG ITZ SO FUCKIN COLD Wombat".

Edited for truth...er.

Elfrago
07-07-2006, 09:42 AM
I would try the white Martyr from coldsnap, it can give you a :eek: of life with just 2 mana

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-07-2006, 03:13 PM
I... actually kind of agree. That card is insane. 15 life for 1W seems kind of unreasonable.

quicksilver
07-07-2006, 03:21 PM
I was thinking the same thing too when i first saw him. Unfortunatly he isn't very good late game because of humility. As well as late game being a lose more if you are losing. However is main job is against agro and surviving into the late game is what you need most and he seems quite good at that.

Alfred
07-07-2006, 04:14 PM
I... actually kind of agree. That card is insane. 15 life for 1W seems kind of unreasonable.

I'd slide it in the sideboard against burn and maybe goblins.

dre4m
07-13-2006, 08:55 AM
I'd slide it in the sideboard against burn and maybe goblins.
Why? This deck already has byes vs those two decks. The Martyr seems like just another filler card, when your sideboard should be devoted to matchups that are decidedly harder, like decks that destroy your lands or hand or both. Oh yeah, and combo decks, too.

Citrus-God
10-20-2006, 03:53 PM
Damn you Elgin for giving up on this deck, and working on some deck named after a terrible movie.

I was working on this deck, because Wombat was a semi-pet deck of mine. It was the most skill intensive metagame deck, and it can beat all of the formats top decks (yes, it somewhat has a decent chance versus Solidarity Post-Board).

Yes, it's Wombat with Scrying Sheets. The deck has been doing very well for me so far. I didnt need Secluded Steppe anymore because Scrying Sheets/Top helped me fight mana flood. I also liked Mouth of Ronom because it doubled as Removal as well as a generic Snow-Land.


// Walk Away
// Mana 23
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Mouth of Ronom
15 Snow-Covered Plains


// Creatures 3
3 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 34
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Wing Shards
4 Renewed Faith
4 Abeyance
3 Decree of Justice
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top


// Sideboard 15
4 Exalted Angel
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Glowrider
3 Disenchant


Needles are there to fight Wasteland, and other random stuff. If you dont feel like running them, you can easily run another EDragon, DoJ, and Akroma's Vengeance in it's place.

The SB has the same plan. Board in Angels in place of Humilities if they board in Disnechants.

Why would I play this over Rifter? Yes, it's slower than Rifter, but it has much better card quality than Rifter, and it's less skepticle than to Armageddon.

Discuss, I hate to see this great deck dye.

Bane of the Living
10-20-2006, 05:52 PM
Why doesnt the deck replace Humility with Moat? It makes dragon a kill condition. Then you can side in Angel against Gobs too.

Alfred
10-20-2006, 08:54 PM
I would try to find a way of including some Coldsteel Hearts in here. Basically, they accelerate the Humility/Moat, and increase the effectiveness of Scrying Sheets due to it being a Snow Perm, as well as being another mana source. It wouldn't be unprecidented in this deck either, as Mind Stone has been used in the past.

I would also like to echo BotL's comment about Moat over Humility. Moat seems extremely effective at slowing and stopping both Goblins and Threshold, as well as allowing you to use Eternal Dragon, Exalted Angel and Adarkar Valkyrie (which is actually pimp once you get it into play) as win conditions.

And Anti-American, I think that that decklist is actually very good! I like all of the proportions of cards, and I think Pithing Needle is a great maindeck utility choice. My main suggestion would be to find a way of squeezing in Coldsteel Hearts, and making the switch to Moat.

SillyMetalGAT
10-20-2006, 09:18 PM
Why? This deck already has byes vs those two decks. The Martyr seems like just another filler card, when your sideboard should be devoted to matchups that are decidedly harder, like decks that destroy your lands or hand or both. Oh yeah, and combo decks, too.

The card helps against Tendrils combo.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
10-21-2006, 02:42 AM
Well, I had been tinkering on this and planning on busting it out again and devastating at some tournament. It seems that the Mana Clash tournament has gone the way of lameness. I hope everyone in Woost chokes on their incredibly irrelevant Eternal Ratings. So, here's my list, based primarily on older builds; I'm actually sort of embarassed when I look back at some of the suggestions I and others made for the deck in the past year. The original model was quite good at what it did. At the time there was a lot of randomness, sideboard hate, and graveyard recursion that gave the deck fits, but I think this build's quite solid in the current metagame. Even the decks that do run Burning Wish don't run Flashfires anymore.


10 Snow-Covered Plains
10 Plains


3 Eternal Dragons

4 Abeyance
3 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
4 Decree of Justice
2 Rune of Protection: Red
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Festival of the Guildpact

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Disenchant


Sideboard
3 True Believer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Glowrider




Bandage, Festival of the Guildpact, Renewed Faith- Stems the bleeding. Still being in the 15-20 zone turn 3 against aggro decks is quite strong. The first two also feed Wing Shards.

No Humility: There's no Survival to worry about. Against Goblins it always needed to be combined with something else or you'd die anyway, and more decks are running Equipment, on top of the rules layer change that means manlands are no longer effected by Humility. It's better to just run more Wing Shards and Wrath.


The SB: There's no Sacred Ground because there's no Flashfires to worry about. Sphere and Chalice stop Storm combo. Glowrider and True Believer serve as additional nuisances that actually beat for the win.

Bane of the Living
10-21-2006, 07:07 AM
I hope everyone in Woost chokes on their incredibly irrelevant Eternal Ratings.

I take it you mean Worcester, well it was the good folks at the Dragons Lair in West Springfield MA that got the event sanctioned and if you weren't currently banned Im sure you'd agree that all sanctioned events are healthy and necessary for our format to stay strong and to grow. I would love to have gotten matched up against Rabid Wombat at the mana clash Jack, sorry you wont be there. Maybe someone else can sleeve the deck up for the event in your name. One of your little disciples.

In any case, I dont think Id be caught playing a deck that needs to bring in 15 sideboard cards to beat the combo match. Thats always been a problem for the deck though. I dont suppose Angels Grace is worth a look at all? Its probably not that great without a Isochron Scepter or a retarded opponent though.

Alfred
10-21-2006, 03:54 PM
Well, I had been tinkering on this and planning on busting it out again and devastating at some tournament. It seems that the Mana Clash tournament has gone the way of lameness. I hope everyone in Woost chokes on their incredibly irrelevant Eternal Ratings. So, here's my list, based primarily on older builds; I'm actually sort of embarassed when I look back at some of the suggestions I and others made for the deck in the past year. The original model was quite good at what it did. At the time there was a lot of randomness, sideboard hate, and graveyard recursion that gave the deck fits, but I think this build's quite solid in the current metagame. Even the decks that do run Burning Wish don't run Flashfires anymore.


10 Snow-Covered Plains
10 Plains


3 Eternal Dragons

4 Abeyance
3 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
4 Decree of Justice
2 Rune of Protection: Red
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Festival of the Guildpact

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Disenchant


Sideboard
3 True Believer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Glowrider




Bandage, Festival of the Guildpact, Renewed Faith- Stems the bleeding. Still being in the 15-20 zone turn 3 against aggro decks is quite strong. The first two also feed Wing Shards.

No Humility: There's no Survival to worry about. Against Goblins it always needed to be combined with something else or you'd die anyway, and more decks are running Equipment, on top of the rules layer change that means manlands are no longer effected by Humility. It's better to just run more Wing Shards and Wrath.


The SB: There's no Sacred Ground because there's no Flashfires to worry about. Sphere and Chalice stop Storm combo. Glowrider and True Believer serve as additional nuisances that actually beat for the win.

No cycling lands? And is 20 lands enough?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
10-21-2006, 04:33 PM
Yes, twenty lands has been enough in my testing, with 7 1cc cantrippers and a plethora of options at 2.


Why are sanctioned events necessary for the growth of the format? The Eternal rating is irrelevant, and Wizards has shown no interest in sponsoring other Legacy GPs. Vintage continues to outpace Legacy with virtually no sanctioned tournaments at all.

Citrus-God
10-22-2006, 03:57 AM
I would try to find a way of including some Coldsteel Hearts in here. Basically, they accelerate the Humility/Moat, and increase the effectiveness of Scrying Sheets due to it being a Snow Perm, as well as being another mana source. It wouldn't be unprecidented in this deck either, as Mind Stone has been used in the past.

I would also like to echo BotL's comment about Moat over Humility. Moat seems extremely effective at slowing and stopping both Goblins and Threshold, as well as allowing you to use Eternal Dragon, Exalted Angel and Adarkar Valkyrie (which is actually pimp once you get it into play) as win conditions.

And Anti-American, I think that that decklist is actually very good! I like all of the proportions of cards, and I think Pithing Needle is a great maindeck utility choice. My main suggestion would be to find a way of squeezing in Coldsteel Hearts, and making the switch to Moat.

Coldsteel Heart is an interesting choice. I should consider that card in the maindeck. Being able to accelerate into a Board Sweeper on turn three is pretty important versus Goblins.

Moats... I'll run them if I could afford them, otherwise it's Humility. I personally think it's a pretty good idea. But judging from IBA's recent Post, I dont think Humilities are needed anymore. I already have the entire deck as answers and removal, may as well just change the whole deck to make it function differently then...


// Mana 25
4 Coldsteel Heart
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Mouth of Ronom
13 Snow-Covered Plains


// Creatures 7
3 Exalted Angel
4 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 29
4 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Moat
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Wing Shards
3 Decree of Justice
4 Renewed Faith
3 Abeyance
3 Sensei's Divining Top


// Sideboard 15
1 Abeyance
1 Exalted Angel
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Disenchant
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Glowrider


There, looks sexier than usual. I will continue to play this deck, but I will play the version with Humilities. I guess this is also the time when I actually get to win 2-0 within 10-20 minutes for the first time.

Xero
10-22-2006, 02:06 PM
10 Snow-Covered Plains
10 Plains


3 Eternal Dragons

4 Abeyance
3 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
4 Decree of Justice
2 Rune of Protection: Red
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Festival of the Guildpact

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Disenchant


Sideboard
3 True Believer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Glowrider




So Jack; why have you given up on the Scrying Sheets + Top idea? Are Bandage/Fesitval etc. better card drawers?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
10-22-2006, 04:09 PM
I think the investment required is greater than the payoff, both in terms of mana and in terms of card slot. You have to run more cards that are just lands for the idea to work, and Top is less than amazing in a deck where your shuffle effects are Eternal Dragon and that's it. The late game card advantage is somewhat superfluous, given how much of your deck you can already cycle through very quickly.

Citrus-God
10-22-2006, 05:47 PM
I think the investment required is greater than the payoff, both in terms of mana and in terms of card slot. You have to run more cards that are just lands for the idea to work, and Top is less than amazing in a deck where your shuffle effects are Eternal Dragon and that's it. The late game card advantage is somewhat superfluous, given how much of your deck you can already cycle through very quickly.

When you cycle, you cycle through the deck blindly. If your not going to Scrying Sheets cycle through lands, while Cyclers make a chain of cycling cards to find answers. Around Midgame, you should have 3 answers on top of your library, as well as your Mouth of Ronoms.

I tested this deck so much, Dragon was in fact cut down to three in this deck. This deck doesnt need a shuffle effect. What this deck needs is the Top, so it can ensure it get's the card quality it needs to win.

Jak
11-14-2006, 07:17 PM
I have been playing with this deck and I love it. Have there been any updates? I pretty much just have the first decklist and I am looking into getting snow covered plains and scrying sheets. Is that the optimal build right now? Thanks

Citrus-God
11-14-2006, 11:37 PM
I have been playing with this deck and I love it. Have there been any updates? I pretty much just have the first decklist and I am looking into getting snow covered plains and scrying sheets. Is that the optimal build right now? Thanks

If your going to run Scrying Sheets, run Mouth of Ronom. It's removal doubled as a Land. It's been very good in my testing so far. For Tops, you only need 3. 4 is just Dead, and this deck is not suppose to be over reliant on the engine, but the card quality it provides is very nice.

Run Exalted Angel in the Sideboard. You side out your Humilities. Believe me, it's been very good for me so far. Sacred Ground should also be considered, as Gro and Angel Stompy are everywhere. Disenchant are needed, as if they play Needle, you cant really threaten with DoJ in response to a Geddon'.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-15-2006, 02:38 PM
Copy/Paste from a post on MTGSal.

To those not aware, exactly a year ago, and round about that time and a month or two before, one of the most played decks in the format was a little number I had developed based on a couple premises; primarily, that White has the best removal suite in the game, but no real card drawing. Landstill developed as a build splashing Blue for counters and card drawing, but then Goblins started playing Rishadan Port in addition to Wasteland, and it made a good matchup into almost a coinflip. Combined with this, Solidarity was growing in prominence, and Landstill almost literally couldn't beat it. Wombat did nothing about the second problem, but by cutting all nonbasics, it certainly swung Goblins back the other way, favored in a ridiculous margin of probably at least four to one. It made up for the lack of straight up card manipulation by having every single card that wasn't a land or removal cycle- and some of them did both.

There were a few problems that rose following it's popularity. The already mentioned combo matchup was problematic at best, and bordering on an autoloss. Even worse was the time issue- while very strong in testing, Wombat required tight play to finish a round in 50 minutes, especially if it went to game 3. The deck furthermore had some trouble dealing with graveyard recursion. The death knell? People started playing Flashfires. And lo, did Wombat drop from the metagame.

In a metagame where the tier 1 is leaning more heavily on Gro and Goblins, and graveyard recursion is diminishing, and even the people packing Burning Wish seldom have a Flashfires to reach for, Team Unicorn has been working on the new, improved Wombat.



9 Snow-Covered Plains
10 Plains

3 Eternal Dragon

4 Festival of the Guildpact
3 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
3 Rune of Protection: Red
4 Abeyance
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Decree of Justice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
2 Disenchant
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God

SB:
4 Glowrider
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 True Believer



Card choices;

10/9 Split on Plains: Just in case they Predict you.
Secluded Steppe: Additional sometimes land drop that's usually better off cycling.

Renewed Faith, Bandage, and Festival of the Guildpact: While individually Bandage effects might seem crappy, they do a number of important things. They produce card advantage when paired with Wing Shards, dig deeper early, and in tangent with each other, they stem early life bleeding and help cement the aggro matchup by giving you a functional starting life total of higher than 20 without costing you cards. Bandage would be a 4 of, except it has poor synergy with sideboarded Chalice of the Void.

Abeyance: Still as powerful an anti-combo, anti-control card as ever it was. With Bandage and Festival, you don't need to save it for the Wing Shards combo against Gro as much; you can use Abeyance to force through StP and Condemn and Wrath, and save the already semi-uncounterable Wing Shards for later. Very versatile card. It's worth noting that Abeyance in respond to Pernicious Deed, Disenchant Pernicious Deed and not lose your soldier tokens is a combo. Also a combo is tap out to hardcast DoJ, upkeep Abeyance to "counter" the Wrath of God.

RoP: Red: The only really popular deck that Humility is a bomb against anymore is Goblins, with Survival and creature-combo being largely dead. RoP: Red is surprisingly functionally similar to Humility here, except it cycles where it's not amazing and doesn't require another card to combo with in order to keep you alive.

Wrath and Wing Shards: Both up to four ofs. Although if the mirror ever becomes an issue again, one of these should become Rout.

Eternal Dragon: Down to a three of. While powerful, it's not as necessary against control, and you usually only want one at a time anyway. It's also a first Pithing Needle target, so not having dead ones in the hand is a boon.

DoJ: Still the primary win condition.

Swords to Plowshares: Bumped to a "five of" with the one Condemn. Early, cheap removal to help control the aggro matchup.

Disenchant/Akroma's Vengeance: Two answers to artifacts and enchantments, with very different functionalities.


The sideboard: 15 dead main cards against Solidarity. 15 very not-dead SB cards. The plan is to scoop it up game 1 to combo and win games 2/3 with artifacts that shut down the combo pre-emtively and creatures that hamper the combo and beat at the same time, minimizing the amount of stack interaction, Solidarity's strongest point, as far as possible.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-23-2006, 01:58 AM
In what can only be described as a dick move, long time would-be Legacy forum representative, aka, moderator of a forum that absolutely no one reads or takes seriously Anusien posted responses to this post on Starcitygames while knowing that I was banned from said forums and couldn't actually reply to any of the uninsightful yet obnoxious posts therein, many of which are as bad and worse than the post that I myself got banned for wherein I said that the phrase "Just a hasted Savannah Lions" to defend the stance of Tin Street Hooligan being purportedly terrible was "Inherently retarded".

But enough about the giant jackassery and hypocrisy of SCG moderators. I'm going to respond to some of the idiocy here, since apparently they are in fact reading this thread, although Spatula already did a pretty good job of covering the bases.

The link, for those interested. (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=295526)

- I never said Rabid Wombat wrecked this metagame. There was a time and a place where Rabid Wombat was a wrecking ball to the metagame, and that was the Landstill-Goblins deadlock of aught five. I have simply said recently that with the 3 tier 1 decks, and much more noticeably Gro and Goblins with Solidarity lagging behind those two, tightening their grip on the metagame, and thus the random factor falling off somewhat, not to mention the fact that I haven't seen a Flashfires in oh so long, Rabid Wombat is once again a consideration.

- There's some truth to the statement that Rabid Wombat, being even more of a metagame than most control decks, can only really work in a stagnant metagame.

I have some news for you... (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13200.html)

- What it basically comes down to is this; Rabid Wombat is a deck that's designed to do well against a metagame. I actually have specifically said that it becomes a much better deck if you start the tournament with byes, such as anyone with Pro points or who wins a GPT going to the Grand Prix. I simply think this a stronger strategy than that which is often advocated on the Mana Drain and Starcity of losing to the top decks and beating the worse ones; for one thing, this gives Wombat an actual shot at a straight run to first place. For another, statistically speaking, relying on winning your first three rounds to do well is a better plan than relying on losing them.

- Wombat vs. Rifter. Well, it's less vulnerable to LD because it can't be color screwed, it doesn't have to run cycling cards so it can run a full set of Abeyances, the Gro-wrecking Wing Shards in place of Pyroclasm and similar shit, and all the reasons that in absence of a reason for a splash, not having the splash is better. Lightning Rift gives you a faster clock, but that's about it for arguments, and relying on having Humility before you can kill non-Goblin creatures is pretty piss poor. Tight play + a better deck is better than Rifter in my opinion.

-I could point out all the reasons that bringing your Obliterate deck up for any argument makes you an idiot, but instead I'll just point out while you're wrong. In response to your Obliterate, I float ten mana. After the board is clear, I'm going to cycle DoJ for seven tokens. This is, I note, far more of an answer to a cast Obliterate than Goblins or Gro has, and in fact would leave me thanking the Obliterate player for having cast it every single time. See: Why Upheaval-Tog went out of favor at the tail end of Onslaught-Oddysey type 2.

- I have never lost a round to Landstill in a tournament. And I played Landstill quite a bit in tournaments. The only times I've drawn are when I did not maindeck Disenchant and they ran Moat and I had cast my own Humility. And there's a number of reasons that's not an issue now.

- To adress one of the few serious questions from the thread, and not just one of the impotent and futilely rage-filled anti-Source crowd who desperately wish they had ever actually won anything: The question of whether or not Wombat is good enough against the rest of the field to take a really bad combo matchup is in fact the point of the revival of the deck. It's a question you have to answer on your own. Are your local tournaments dominated by Gro and Goblins, and possibly Landstill? Then yes, it is good enough. Is it a lot of Life from the Loam or Survival or MBC type decks? Is Haunting Echoes a factor in your metagame? Then probably not.

Tao
12-01-2006, 07:35 AM
I was wondering how Plow Under would be in the Irish Wombat variant.

I always liked the Irish (rancored) Wombat version because of the massive threats it has and maindeck blessings, but there was always something missing against decks where the creature hate is not effective like Combo, MBC (Train Wreck), Landstill or Rock. I just thought that Plow Under could help in these matches because it gives makes "Land Drop advantage" and can be recurred with Blessing or Regrowth.

The following is not tested, just something I thought of. Maybe it can work?

// Lands
8 [RAV] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Secluded Steppe
2 [8E] Forest (2)
2 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [RAV] Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [SH] Bandage
3 [WL] Abeyance
3 [TE] Humility
3 [9E] Wrath of God
1 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [TSP] Gaea's Blessing
3 [UD] Plow Under
3 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [U] Regrowth


SB: ? (Furnaces, Disenchant, Glowrider, Rule of Law, Chalice ?)

Tao
12-02-2006, 05:37 AM
After some testing I came with this list. It is quite strong and absolutely boring to play. Plow Under is really good in this ; )

It tries to crush Aggro like Wombat but have some stronger cards in other matchups. That's why I removed the Wing Shards Engine for more flexibility.

Crucible works with Fetchlands like a cheap Eternal Dragon and can recur Ghazi, Wasteland and Monestary. Don't be too negative about Wasteland in this type of deck. There are many decks in the Format that are very vulnerable to it.

The Regrowth/ Blessing Engine is strong. In some matches I played the same card about 5 or more times.

Regrowth is sooo good against Aggro if you have a Sword. Postboard you have also Condemn as a target for Recursion.

The maindecked Yardhate is really important because you want the stronger yard in many matchups. After some testing I would never play the deck without maindeck Disenchant.

Any ideas for better MD/SB solutions?

// Lands
5 [RAV] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Secluded Steppe
2 [8E] Forest (2)
3 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [RAV] Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [TE] Humility
3 [9E] Wrath of God
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TSP] Gaea's Blessing
3 [UD] Plow Under
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [U] Regrowth
2 [OV] Abeyance
2 [7E] Disenchant
2 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
1 [MR] Scrabbling Claws

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 1 [7E] Disenchant
SB: 1 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 1 [MR] Scrabbling Claws
SB: 2 [RAV] Condemn
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields

Slag
12-02-2006, 07:14 AM
Very interesting build. I'm seeing what you mean with the power of plow under. Being able to cycle through your deck while your opponent picks his nose for two turns is an excellent situation. I have a few questions/comments, though. I agree that wasteland is a powerful effect in the format, but in a deck that really, really needs mana development, how much can you afford to throw away a land, even to kill another land? Furthermore, it seems that with your other recursion effects, crucible is largely there for the wastelock. Is the wastelock powerful enough to occupy two slots with such a slow artifact? Finally, I am a little nervous about losing the mad power of wing shards. I didn't know how good it is until recently, when I realized how many creatures it can kill without losing any of your own.

Citrus-God
12-02-2006, 03:44 PM
We will support you Jack. We all know that Wombat is indeed a fine deck, and can easily be one of the best decks in Legacy's development. Also, I would also like to thank your hardwork, as it inspired me to make a spin-off of Wombat with Scrying Sheets and Top. Jack, I also encourage you to try this deck out, just for the hell of it. I know the deck's development is still incomplete, but with the card quality this deck provides, it makes decks like Gro and Goblins die so quickly.


// Lands 23
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Mouth of Ronom
15 Snow-Covered Plains


// Creatures 3
3 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 34
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
3 Wing Shards
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Humility
4 Renewed Faith
4 Abeyance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Decree of Justice
3 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
3 Disenchant
4 Exalted Angel
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance


This is a strong deck, and even beats the hell out of Thresh Games 2 and 3, even right after a Geddon'! This deck can recover so quickly, it makes the Thresh player's life a hell to deal with. Against Goblins, get an early Needle on Wasteland to protect your engine... but really, you dont need your engine, as it can still functon without it. I thank you Jack for encouraging me to build this...

Also, Toad is a stupid fuck, and he certainly doesnt know what the fuck a metagame deck means obviously. I wanna hear him say a deck like T1 Fish is pure shit.

Tao
12-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Crucible of Worlds with Fetchlands: It works exactly like Eternal Dragon but you don't have to pay 5 Mana in your upkeep. You should really test it.

Wasteland is good because there are some problematic lands in the format. If your opponent starts with Ancient Tomb/Chalice you have a good chance of slowing him down for 2 or more turns with a Wasteland. It also gives you advantages in the control mirror against Manlands.

There are several things I like about IBA's Green Splash of Wombat (page 18). Most of them help to improve the control Mirror (Landstill, Rock, Rifter, my Gbw Survival).

- With 2-3 Gaea's Blessing your deck never ends. You can cycle your Decrees very aggressive because they all come back. Just shuffle back the first Blessing with the second Blessing.
- The manlands are strong. Monestary is a fast clock and Ghazi is nearly invulnerable. Manlands are perfect for this deck and every version should run some. Green has the best.

So if your Meta is all about Control, Gro and Aggro with no Combo (like mine) I think that Irish Wombat can be the perfect choice because it beats those decks.

I would like to know you think about my additions to the decklist, Regrowth, Crucible and Plow Under. In my testing Plow Under is a bomb, especially together with regrowth.

Citrus-God
12-03-2006, 02:53 AM
I think this deck has created like 4 different variants, and they are all very competitive. Rapid Wombat, Rifter, Winter, and Irish.

Xero
12-08-2006, 01:51 PM
I've been running a list close to IBA's except for:
-1 Condemn, -2 ROP:Red, -1 Disenchant------+2 Humility, +2 Guilded Light in the main (with the additional Disenchants and ROP's in the sideboard, removing Sphere of Resistance). Its been great for me so far-Humility has helped every time I've played it, and has flat-out won the game against a few decks (like Reanimator and Affinity). The Guilded Lights have helped against combo and discard- being able to prevent Hymn to Tourach maindeck has been nice. I haven't missed the ROP's or Disenchants. Of course, Goblins is only played a little in my meta, and non-Goblin aggro is more popular.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-20-2006, 08:16 PM
Combined with Gaea's Blessing, Angel's Grace seems much better than Plow Under, which will be too slow against Solidarity. Angel's Grace, on the other hand, would give you a deceptively faster clock than you would have otherwise, as maindecking three means that Solidarity has to be able to Stroke you out two turns before DoJ is lethal.

I gave up on the Green splash myself, however, as I felt it really did sacrifice the really strong Aggro matchup that makes the deck worthwhile for a bunch of neat late game cards. If control was more of an issue, I'd like the Green build a lot more, but it's almost non-existant.


I'm currently running the following list (I also cut the 1 Condemn and the RoPs and added Gilded Light, but I still dont' find Humility worthwhile. I also changed around the board)

19x Plains (Onslaught #2)

3x Eternal Dragon
3x Decree of Justice

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Wing Shards
4x Wrath of God
2x Disenchant
2x Akroma's Vengeance
4x Bandage
4x Renewed Faith
4x Festival of the Guildpact
3x Gilded Light
4x Abeyance


SB:
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Razor Golem
4x Orim's Chant
1x Gilded Light
2x meh. Not sure what to put here yet.



The new board plan abandons the semi-stax route to play Mono-White Thresh against Iggy and Solidarity (Iggy is already a surprisingly decent matchup with this list game 1, where they have to lean pretty heavily on Leyline to win), combining cheap beats with the ability to keep open your "counters". Both cards can also come in against other matchups- if you lose game 2 to Geddon against Thresh, bringing in 8 large fatties, including Jotun Grunt to destroy their yard, in place of Wrath and Wing Shards can upset their plan.

Jak
12-21-2006, 03:25 AM
Why 19 lands? Seems really low. I have trouble getting some with 22. Well I have updated my build and it looks like this.

Lands
18 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe

Win
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
3 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Rune of Protection: Red (sometimes 2 Bandage)
4 Renewed Faith
4 Gilded Light
4 Abeyance

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Orim's Chant
4 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Resistance

The list is working really well. Thoughts on the MD and board?

URABAHN
12-21-2006, 06:03 AM
SB:
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Razor Golem
4x Orim's Chant
1x Gilded Light
2x meh. Not sure what to put here yet.

The new board plan abandons the semi-stax route to play Mono-White Thresh against Iggy and Solidarity (Iggy is already a surprisingly decent matchup with this list game 1, where they have to lean pretty heavily on Leyline to win), combining cheap beats with the ability to keep open your "counters". Both cards can also come in against other matchups- if you lose game 2 to Geddon against Thresh, bringing in 8 large fatties, including Jotun Grunt to destroy their yard, in place of Wrath and Wing Shards can upset their plan.

What made you decide to completely overhaul the sideboard? How do these efficient creatures matchup vs. combo instead of 15 cards of combo hate?


Why 19 lands? Seems really low. I have trouble getting some with 22. Well I have updated my build and it looks like this.

Lands
18 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe

Win
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
3 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Rune of Protection: Red (sometimes 2 Bandage)
4 Renewed Faith
4 Gilded Light
4 Abeyance

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Orim's Chant
4 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Resistance

The list is working really well. Thoughts on the MD and board?

I think you're shorting yourself by not playing the damage prevention effects. They prevent early loss of life, replace themselves, and build Storm for Wing Shards. I'm not a big fan of Secluded Steppe, I think running 4 is asking for mana problems because at some point you're going to play it and you're not going to be able to play Wing Shards, Wrath of God, Akroma's Vengeance. If you're going to run a card like Steppe that you cycle more often than not, consider running Bandage or Festival of the Guildpact. I'm not a big fan of Rule of Law in the sideboard because it's expensive and a seasoned combo player will find a way to return it to your hand at the end of your turn, combo off on their turn, or allow you to take your turn. If you're allowed to take your turn, then you've got to decide whether it's worth it to play Rule of Law again. If you do, you're nearly tapped out and you've added 1 to the Storm count. If you don't, then you've got one or more Rule of Law cluttering up your hand that probably won't be played until you have more lands in play, which means you're giving combo more time to sculpt the perfect hand to beat you. IBA's new board, which includes efficient beaters, might make more sense because then you can conserve mana to play Orim's Chant and Abeyance.

Tao
12-21-2006, 02:55 PM
I gave up on the Green splash myself, however, as I felt it really did sacrifice the really strong Aggro matchup that makes the deck worthwhile for a bunch of neat late game cards. If control was more of an issue, I'd like the Green build a lot more, but it's almost non-existant.


I'm currently running the following list
*Ibas list



The list is pretty strong against Gobs and Thresh and it can beat Soli postboard.

But my problem is that the deck is completely helpless against many control decks (and it still has a extremely bad Combo matchup). It autoloses against decks like Rifter, Train Wreck, Rock, many Survival variants (even ATS) and nearly all Loam decks.

You still have to fight to beat Gobs and Thresh. But the games against named decks are real Autolosses like "Life vs. Aluren" back in old Extended.

Jak
12-21-2006, 04:08 PM
Lands
22 Plains

Win
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
3 Gilded Light
4 Abeyance

SB:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Razor Golem :laugh: (He is actually the best. My favorite card to side in)
1 Gilded Light
3 Jotun Grunt
2 ??? I was thinking Exalted angel or RoP

Thoughts? The board has been working out well, except I am not sure what to put in the last 2 slots. I am thinking RoP for burn and gobs.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-21-2006, 05:06 PM
The current sideboard is more flexible. Jotun Grunt and Razor Golem are, if nothing else, big effective beatsticks against almost any deck, and Grunt in particular is effective at eating yards in matchups where the yard can be troublesome such as Survival or Loam decks. It can also pre-emptively save you from a Haunting Echoes, the worst card for you against black-based control. Still not a favorable matchup, though.

I haven't found Rifter to actually be that bad a matchup, though. They have far less answers to hardcast DoJ-Upkeep Abeyance than you would imagine.

I've had very few mana problems with 19 land. I'd consider going up to 20. 22, however, is quite excessive. I would never run that many. It will hurt you far less to mulligan for two lands once in a while than to run that much fluff.

URABAHN
12-21-2006, 05:16 PM
The current sideboard is more flexible. Jotun Grunt and Razor Golem are, if nothing else, big effective beatsticks against almost any deck, and Grunt in particular is effective at eating yards in matchups where the yard can be troublesome such as Survival or Loam decks. It can also pre-emptively save you from a Haunting Echoes, the worst card for you against black-based control. Still not a favorable matchup, though.

I'd feel uncomfortable playing Razor Golem vs. combo decks because of it's prohibitive cost. I know it gets cheaper, but at what point do you play it? Turn 5 for 1 mana? That leaves 4 mana open to "counter" with multiple Orim's Chant and Abeyance, but I think playing it any sooner means you're less likely to have the mana to do that. I'll test it this weekend and see for myself.

Jak
12-21-2006, 08:54 PM
The reason for 22 is because I really want to be able to get the lands without eternal dragon for help in the early game and tapping out to cycle. I hate paying the 5 mana and tapping out to get him back in my hand to get the needed plains. For a deck that wants to spend 6 mana for vengeance to wipe the board clean before they drop DoJ or dragon for like 7-10 I just feel 22 is a good number.

And also has anybody tried a splash of blue instead of green for stuff like stifle, mage, and fact or fiction for draw? Better combo match up and drawing a lot more wraths and stuff for gobs could be good. But I have tried and I am terrible at cutting cards from a list. So just an idea I thought I would throw out there. If it has already been tested then never mind.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-22-2006, 11:23 AM
What is with Martyr of Sands?

I think this card incrase the agro matchup enormas...
On play you coud block a lakey and could get 9 live...!

Jak
12-22-2006, 02:43 PM
It would really only help against tendrils combo decks because this deck was designed to beat aggro and can beat very easily.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-23-2006, 10:45 AM
you have only 4 awnsers to a turn one Lakey...
and with the Martyr of Sands you could incrase the Goblin matchup and the tendrils combo matchup.

It isnt just lifegain it is a 1/1 for one mana with extream lifegain. With this card you could just drop the Rune of pro red and maybe some other lifegain like Renewed Faith

Bane of the Living
12-23-2006, 12:04 PM
Jack have you given any thought to the martyr proclaimation combo being ran around in standard? Is the forecast cost far too much? It seems like martyr is at least better than Renewed Faith. 3 mana for 6 life or 2 mana for 21??

Also the Vesuva/Cloudpost engine looks somewhat promising here because of the nasty decree's it would create. In Irish Wombat you can run Root Maze to include your opponent in the 'comes into play tapped' fun. Coming into play tapped is tech against haste as well.

Jak
12-24-2006, 02:18 AM
So I was wondering if anybody was planning on breaking this deck out into a tourney? I really would like to, but I sorta need a car or something, but I will get to one to play this deck eventually. So is anybody planning on playing this deck ever again? The new list are starting to look good with the sideboard to battle combo. I think this deck may be viable once tweaked enough.

Jaynel
12-24-2006, 10:40 AM
This is my Legacy version of Snow White. Martyr is absolutely busted as you can stall indefinitely against most decks. Scrying Sheets and some snow permanents isn't really a draw engine, but it helps you hit 6+ mana so you can keep Forecasting Proclaimation of Rebirth. Maindeck True Beliver and Rule of Law are hot against combo and the latter keeps Burn and fast aggro in check.

Legacy Snow White

Mana/Acceleration (8 + 23 Snow):
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scrying Sheets
15 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Coldsteel Heart


Stall (17):
4 True Believer
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Rule of Law
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Moat

Removal (8):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God

Win (4):
2 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon

// Sideboard
1 Rule of Law
3 Exalted Angel
3 Morningtide
4 Sphere of Law
4 Disenchant

Sideboard gives you your standard issue artifact and enchantment removal for white along with Sphere of Law to help out more against Goblins and Burn. Morningtide goes in for Thresh and graveyard dependant decks. Rule of Law and the Exalted Angels come in against Solidarity so you have something that vaguely resembles a clock (the matchup still isn't pretty). Maybe Gilded Light would be good? Orim's Chant? Abeyance?

Virel
12-24-2006, 10:54 AM
The Martyr of Sands & Proclamation of Rebirth engine deserves some attention. It's strong enough that my Standard T2 Martyr of Sands deck has been able to beat several decks out of format. Being able to gain as much as 50+ life a turn will wreck decks that deal damage. The snow engine can help with card selection.

sammiel
12-24-2006, 11:37 AM
morning tide should be tormod's crypt, phyrexian furnace, or scrabbling claws.

you don't want symmetrical graveyard effects when part of your combo is in the gy.

*edit* also, I would dump the wastelands and mox diamonds, and add mouth of ronom and or more plains. You also might want to consider wing shards to supplement stp, especially in the threshold matchup.

True Believer is not synergistic with wrath of god, and should probably be gilded light, since gilded light cycles away in the few irrelevant matchups there are.

I would consider having a single moat and multiple ghostly prisons instead of multiple moats: moats are prohibitively expensive for a card that does absolutely nothing in multiples.

Pithing needle definitely belongs somewhere in the sideboard. I've been experimenting with return to dust over disenchant, with mixed results. ATM I use serenity, but that's not an option for you.

With only two decrees and two dragons MD, I would definitely try and find a way to squeeze a couple more win conditions in

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-24-2006, 02:54 PM
I'd actually appreciate it if you could move discussion about totally different decks out of this thread.


6W to gain some life a turn if I still have cards in hand. It's really not going to cut it. If I even get to that stage in the game I'm usually fine.

Jak
12-24-2006, 03:04 PM
Plus you would be cutting some needed cards to gain life. Gaining life doesn't help anything against solidarity. And I don't think the snow white theme would work due to the fact that when I used scrying sheets it was in the late game with enough mana already from dragon. Once you reach 3 mana, you're going to be playing spells out like shards and there just isn't a time to use scrying sheets. That is just my take of it from testing.

Elfrago
12-24-2006, 03:20 PM
I agree, 6W is not good, but martyr is great! Forget about recurring it, chumpblocking and gain 15 or more life is good enough!

outsideangel
12-24-2006, 03:31 PM
I'd actually appreciate it if you could move discussion about totally different decks out of this thread.


6W to gain some life a turn if I still have cards in hand. It's really not going to cut it. If I even get to that stage in the game I'm usually fine.

It's actually 6WW, but...

Recurring and Plaincycling Eternal Dragon costs 5WW, and that usually isn't considered too mana-intensive for this deck.

I think the reason not to play Martyr/Proclamation isn't the mana costs... it's the fact that you have to play 2 cards that don't do much of anything on their own, and really don't help win you the game, either, even when you get both of them. Not losing != winning

HdH_Cthulhu
12-24-2006, 03:56 PM
I agree, 6W is not good, but martyr is great! Forget about recurring it, chumpblocking and gain 15 or more life is good enough!

Yeha thats what i am talking about! Forget recurring it because you need the mana for your lategameplan ---> Dragen, DoJ...

but you have nothing to do in your first turns so the martyr fits in your curve! She has synergy with wrath and this girl helps with the lifegain to reach the lategame.

Yes she does nothing against solidarity but we also play things like swords...

You can also can play and sac it in your second (maby with mox in first) turn to make it hard for the tendrils...

This girl is like a white version of a "Fanatic Mogg"...
EDIT: I shouldnt write so much when i am drunken...

Jak
12-26-2006, 12:29 AM
I really don't see why you should put her in the deck. She doesn't make any of your weak MUs better and you have to cut removal and things to stick her in. The goblins MU is already extremely in our favor. It may make it stronger, but I would actually like to add a card that helps solidarity or something than to gain 15 life.

Elfrago
12-26-2006, 04:53 AM
I really don't see why you should put her in the deck. She doesn't make any of your weak MUs better and you have to cut removal and things to stick her in. The goblins MU is already extremely in our favor. It may make it stronger, but I would actually like to add a card that helps solidarity or something than to gain 15 life.

Well, it helps aganist tendrils.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-26-2006, 08:38 AM
I dont now much about IGGY PoP could they do 36 dmg?
I know the create a loop of spells but how much avarage dmg does Iggy pop mostly?

solidarity!? When in your meta is a lot of it, than dont play this deck! You cant win! You have no counters no clock no discard no LD. And pleas dont say we things like gildet light because this dose next to nothing aginst Solidarity like the Martyr of Sands. Hmmm no... with Martyr of Sands you could deal some dmg^^.

Postboard solidarity could race your hate or had enogh time to get through it! What helps hate with no clock against a T1 Deck like it?

I think when you take this deck to a turney you have to gamble to not meet solidarity! You couldnt beat all decks and you couldnt make a deck with good MUs aginst every deck!

EDIT: She doesnt only beat goblins, she is good against every aggro machup and lets the opponent ovrextend into a wrath. And against Burn it is nothing more then gg.

So cut things like the narrow pro red rune and the renewed faith! We dont play Rifter!

Jak
12-26-2006, 08:37 PM
That's the thing, I have already cut my narrow cards like RoP red. I filled those slots with more wraths and shards. You might want to try looking back at some posts where I posted a decklist. And cutting renewed faith? I like having cyclers in this deck so I do have some draw, thanks. You plan on gaining 15 life, which is good, but against a deck that you already destroy? That doesn't make much sense, when it doesn't help your weaker MUs. IGGy pop can do a lot of damage in a turn, this is why you play abeyance and gilded light. My IGGy pop MU is pretty good right now, so I do not feel the need to play her.

Also, some people like to play this deck and I don't plan to stop just because solidarity is running through. Go ahead and play her, but I don't think it will help the deck get to the next level.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-27-2006, 09:22 AM
That's the thing, I have already cut my narrow cards like RoP red. I filled those slots with more wraths and shards. You might want to try looking back at some posts where I posted a decklist. And cutting renewed faith? I like having cyclers in this deck so I do have some draw, thanks. You plan on gaining 15 life, which is good, but against a deck that you already destroy? That doesn't make much sense, when it doesn't help your weaker MUs. IGGy pop can do a lot of damage in a turn, this is why you play abeyance and gilded light. My IGGy pop MU is pretty good right now, so I do not feel the need to play her.

Also, some people like to play this deck and I don't plan to stop just because solidarity is running through. Go ahead and play her, but I don't think it will help the deck get to the next level.

Hmmm... I agree some points of your post!

Let us see what MUs will be better with the Martyr!

1. Goblins
2. Burn
3. Tendrils
4. Random Aggro

Goblin Snowman
12-27-2006, 12:12 PM
Lets see what MU are worse when you cut "Narrow" ROP Red.

1) Goblins
2) Burn
3) Random Aggro

The deck crushes Goblins and Random Aggro already, and I'm already going to accept I have a horrible Iggy Pop G1. Hence the 15 Card board.

Xero
12-27-2006, 03:11 PM
So cut things like the narrow pro red rune and the renewed faith! We dont play Rifte
So in order to run something that might gain you some life, you'd cut something that guarantees life gain while also drawing a card? Renewed Faith is actually one of the best cards Wombat has against Iggy Pop, so if you're arguing in favor of Martyr because of that match-up, you should look elsewhere.

Daze
12-27-2006, 03:27 PM
Iggy is not stopped by Martyr.

LED, LED, Infernal Tutor for IGG, sac both LEDs, play IGG. Repeat 3 more times. This makes 17 spells=34 damage and only needs 3 cards in hand and 2 mana.

sammiel
12-27-2006, 08:37 PM
Iggy is not stopped by Martyr.

LED, LED, Infernal Tutor for IGG, sac both LEDs, play IGG. Repeat 3 more times. This makes 17 spells=34 damage and only needs 3 cards in hand and 2 mana.

that play isnt legal

Since sacing LED takes IGG out of your hand, and casting IGG takes it out of the game. Try playing the deck even once. Even if your plays were legal, obviously no deck can beat a god-drawing combo deck. But your assumption is retarded in the same way that everyone says cards like Gaea's Blessing are worthless against solidarity. Turn 1 martyr is going to set you back for awhile, requiring you to set up your graveyard and hand perfectly to get a high enough storm count. In that time, the wombat player can draw into MD graveyard hate, another martyr, draw into gilded light/abeyance, or even get a clock on the board in the form of angel/dragon/decree.

Martyr is definitely a serious roadblock against IGGY, but IGGY is already your only vaguely winnable combo matchup since sorcery speed combo is vulnerable to abeyance and gilded light.

Maybe if your meta was nothing but goblins, random aggro, iggy, and some thresh, Martyr would be worth running. But including 4 cards that only help 2 problem matchups, and are dead in your worst matchup, seems sub-optimal.

Daze
12-27-2006, 09:35 PM
that play isnt legal

Since sacing LED takes IGG out of your hand, and casting IGG takes it out of the game. Try playing the deck even once.


Use your brain and make sure you know what you are talking about.

Cast both LEDs, cast Tutor, resp. sac both LEDs. Play IGG with 2 mana floating targeting the LEDs and the Tutor. Rinse, repeat. Tell me where LED takes IGG out of my hand and where I try to Tutor for a removed IGG. Try playing the deck even once.

And I see the point in trying to buy some time, but I'm not convinced it will buy enough time. I strongly support Blessing vs Solidarity, as they have to have a way to get one or more Stifles or enough Mana to Stroke you, which can get hard if they had to go off early. As for IGG, I have not really been playing the deck, but you "just" need 2 cards producing 6 mana and a Tutor. Since they also play Grids I don't think Martyr will buy you enough time to get Abeyance and 5 mana.
Even assuming you do, making one bad MU better is imho not really justifying maindeck slots. And as previousliy mentioned, against Burn and Goblins RoP is just better.

sammiel
12-27-2006, 10:00 PM
Use your brain and make sure you know what you are talking about.

Cast both LEDs, cast Tutor, resp. sac both LEDs. Play IGG with 2 mana floating targeting the LEDs and the Tutor. Rinse, repeat. Tell me where LED takes IGG out of my hand and where I try to Tutor for a removed IGG. Try playing the deck even once.



See, I had this incredibly awesome snarky reply ready to go and realized it didn't belong in this thread. Bottom line is, your perfect hand beats a martyr that was sacrificed with 4 white cards in hand, assuming no gilded light/abeyance.

More importantly, we agree that Martyr, while maybe playable in a very specific metagame, doesn't belong in a normal meta.

clavio
12-31-2006, 11:09 AM
I don't like martyr. It sometimes gives you a nice lifeboost, but it's totally not worth it. You have to reveal all of your white cards. This takes away surprises like wingshards and abeyance. More times than not what you gain from martyr is instantly nullified by telling your opponent what you have.

Why were the rops dropped? How has that been working?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-31-2006, 04:52 PM
I like to be able to randomly chain from 1-2 cards into a large Wing Shards or Wrath. Martyr doesn't chain into anything, and doesn't do anything if your hand isn't full. It's somewhat powerful early game but dead in the late game. And this deck likes to get to the late game if I'm not much mistaken.


RoP dropping might be a mistake. I'm still tinkering with it. RoP is really powerful against Goblins after a Wrath where you might otherwise lose. Humility I'm definitely not regretting, however. Straight-up killing the creatures has been better in pretty much every match over making them Eager Cadets who can still pick up a Sword of Fire and Ice and kill you. Now, if Gamekeeper actually starts popping up all over the place, that could conceivably change.

clavio
01-01-2007, 08:15 PM
Has Ivory Mask ever been considered for the sideboard? Too often burn spells and hymn to tourachs end up beating me.

Should sacred ground be considered? Some Thresh decks still play 2-3 geddons.

Karma?

Lego
01-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Has Ivory Mask ever been considered for the sideboard? Too often burn spells and hymn to tourachs end up beating me.

Hymn will still beat you, probably by stealing the Mask from your hand before you can play it.

Xero
01-02-2007, 02:09 PM
Ivory Mask is slow, too. Guilded Light can stop a Hymn, and it can cycle so its never worthless. Sacred ground is a good sideboard card against land hate, but it preventes you from running as much anti-combo as you need. If there is little combo but lots of Geddon, you should run Sacred Ground. Karma is kind of crappy, because there really isn't that many swamp decks, and for the few that do exist, Karma is going to be ignored (Iggy Pop) or killed (BW, Red Death). On a different note, what do people think of Nodes of Poriphry or whatever the hell its called (the W Drop of Honey)? You already run a ton of creature kill, but Nodes does make the Gro and Goblins match-ups better.

URABAHN
01-02-2007, 05:29 PM
RoP dropping might be a mistake. I'm still tinkering with it. RoP is really powerful against Goblins after a Wrath where you might otherwise lose.

After what little testing I did with IBA on Friday night, I'm also leaning towards keeping RoP in the deck. The thing about Goblins is they can slow play you, swing for a couple here, a couple there, not walk into Wing Shards, and eventually win. Goblins can recover from Wrath and Vengeance by resolving multiple Goblin Ringleaders and refill their hand with more men.

Jak
01-03-2007, 10:22 AM
What did you cut for the RoPs? I have liked them, but with addding 4 bandage and 3 guilded light, I just ran out of room.

Alfred
01-14-2007, 03:30 AM
Spoilers below!!!










Does the White Force Spike "Mana Tithe" work in this deck? It's a tempo card, but it's pretty useful against combo, Threshold and Goblins, which all work based on tempo.

I think it could be a valuable control peice in this deck. What do you guys think?

clavio
01-14-2007, 01:00 PM
// Lands
19 [MR] Plains (3)

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [CS] Jötun Grunt

// Spells
3 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
4 [U] Wrath of God
2 [MI] Disenchant
4 [SC] Wing Shards
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [WL] Abeyance
4 [SC] Gilded Light
3 [RAV] Festival of the Guildpact
3 [SH] Bandage

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Jötun Grunt
SB: 1 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 1 [SH] Bandage
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [US] Rune of Protection: Lands
SB: 3 [8E] Karma


I like running one Grunt main board because it acts like a Feldon's Cane as it can get your cards back and give you more deck. It is also a solid beater.
Ropr is spectacular, but running it makes me unable to run Akroma's Wrath. So it goes.

I have been getting raped by manlands, which unfortunately do not die to wrath. Even if they did, they would just get loamed back. This is why I am playing rune in my sideboard.

Black decks that play discard and land destruction can prevent a doj ever becoming an issue. Karma makes these match ups more favorable, as the deck can hang on for a few turns as the swamp player gets hit by karma.

I don't like disenchant, but it is necessary to kill off pithing needle.

I just realized this list is 61 cards. So it goes.

Jak
01-14-2007, 01:38 PM
This is my newest build. I really liked the idea of RoP Lands in the board from Clavio. I too have been having trouble against loam. I just try to drop a chalice for 2 early post-board

Lands
20 Plains

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 RoP: Red
4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
2 Disenchant
4 Abeyance
4 Gilded Light
3 Decree of Justice

Sideboard
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Orim's Chant
3 RoP: Lands

Cait_Sith
01-14-2007, 02:45 PM
Does anyone think that Mana Tithe (the white Force Spike) would have a place in this deck?

Edit: What about Dawn Charm?

URABAHN
01-14-2007, 06:52 PM
Does anyone think that Mana Tithe (the white Force Spike) would have a place in this deck?

Edit: What about Dawn Charm?

I'm not convinced that another reactive card would help MWC. At the end of the day, all reactive, ham-fisted control decks like MWC need to win the game by being proactive. Mana Tithe might be a good replacement for Bandage or Festival of the Guildpact except it doesn't replace itself and only tacks on more Storm if your opponent plays spells before they attack.

Regarding Dawn Charm, how often are must-counter spells targeted at your head without Storm? Haunting Echoes certainly fits this description, but I don't think it's seen often enough to play Dawn Charm instead of Gilded Light.

torgar
01-23-2007, 04:46 PM
I've been following this deck for a while now (about a year).

I've been testing with Mana Tithe.. and I'm not sure about it yet. It really helps early game to push you along so you survive into the later game, which is what this deck is all about... but true. it doesn't cycle. The good thing is that it almost NEVER a dead card. Good vs aggro, combo, & control.

I've liked using Jotun Grunt as a x2-3 because he replaces Scrabbling Claws/Phyrexian Furnace in terms of grave hate and he provides a decent clock against stuff like Solidarity. Previously, cycling Decree for 2-3 tokens was about the best I could do after shutting down a Solidarity player's attempt to go off. Without out a clock.. they just shape their hand again and go off again in 3-4 turns.
The deck NEEDS some sort of faster win condition than the 7cc dragon and decree. Usually I can get three swings out of him early depending on the yard, which can be quickly filled via cyclers. And late game, he'll stick around for a while. He's also a great chump blocker in times of need.

Against goblins, I've been trying a different creature hate package. Instead of Wing Shards (Man I love Wings Shards.. I hate to see it go. esp against Gro). I've been using a combination like this:
Ghostly Prison which not only really stops insane Piledrivers from smashing you for 20+ in a turn but also negates their plan of Armageddon from the board. Armageddon + Prison = Good Times!! plus 2-3 Wrath and of course the full complement of StP. I had to take out Shards because of the lack of synergy with Prison.

I've taken out Renewed Faith and replaced it with x4 Gilded Light so there 8 anti-combo cards in the main. (abeyance/gilded) I'm ok with this because they all cycle/cantrip.

And idea I've just started testing is Porphyry Nodes + Forbidden Orchard.. it's alittle out there. but.. it might show promise. Does anyone know if Porphyry Nodes' ability is targeted?

Aggro_zombies
01-23-2007, 05:00 PM
And idea I've just started testing is Porphyry Nodes + Forbidden Orchard.. it's alittle out there. but.. it might show promise. Does anyone know if Porphyry Nodes' ability is targeted?
No, it isn't. Spells and abilities only target if they say "target." Even if there are multiple creatures with the lowest power, the ability is still not targeted.

But one question I have is, why use this to begin with? It seems rather pointless unless you splash for another color and want easy mana fixing.

torgar
01-23-2007, 05:12 PM
I know Drop of Honey was errata-ed to "target" creature. The Forbidden Orchard helps to keep the Nodes in play, that's all. When there's a single creature in play, Nodes ability on the stack to destroy the creature, create a token.. to keep the Nodes in play. It's not for the color. Maybe it's better to go with a Kjeldoran Outpost or Sacred Mesa, or Mobilization. Or maybe it's not needed at all. I was thinking of a way to keep the new Drop of Honey locked in play while Ghostly Prison prevents being overrun by an all out creature (i.e., goblin) rush.

Aggro_zombies
01-23-2007, 05:25 PM
I know Drop of Honey was errata-ed to "target" creature. The Forbidden Orchard helps to keep the Nodes in play, that's all. When there's a single creature in play, Nodes ability on the stack to destroy the creature, create a token.. to keep the Nodes in play. It's not for the color. Maybe it's better to go with a Kjeldoran Outpost or Sacred Mesa, or Mobilization. Or maybe it's not needed at all. I was thinking of a way to keep the new Drop of Honey locked in play while Ghostly Prison prevents being overrun by an all out creature (i.e., goblin) rush.
The new Drop of Honey also seems like a very slow way to get rid of your opponent's creature base unless they run very few creatures to begin with, like AS or something. In the long run it seems more efficient to use Ghostly Prison to prevent attacks while Wrathing their board away.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-23-2007, 06:32 PM
Nodes is pretty bad in the position where you have a bunch of Soliders and they have bigger dudes. That might not be enough reason not to play it, but it's out there.


Mana Tithe is an aggro card. It's dead in the late game, which you're going to want to get to every game. There are a lot of cards I'd run well before Mana Tithe. If they had given a White Memory Lapse or Remand, that would be one thing...