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torgar
01-23-2007, 09:12 PM
Nodes is definitely something that hits before a cycled decree.

I've noticed Mana Tithe weakness late game...

How do you feel about Ghostly Prison?

I've also been testing Tithe which has helped to keep land-light hands.. and it almost always fetches two lands since you're almost always on the draw. This has been in the Bandage/Festival slot.

URABAHN
01-23-2007, 10:13 PM
Nodes is definitely something that hits before a cycled decree.

I've noticed Mana Tithe weakness late game...

How do you feel about Ghostly Prison?

You're already favored against aggro decks, why clutter up the sideboard or maindeck with Ghostly Prison?


I've also been testing Tithe which has helped to keep land-light hands.. and it almost always fetches two lands since you're almost always on the draw. This has been in the Bandage/Festival slot.

Bandage and Festival help stop early loss of life and allow you to dig deeper into your deck to find lands or business cards. Tithe tutors up a Plains, maybe two. Would you rather have spells or lands?

clavio
01-24-2007, 03:47 PM
I played this deck in the magic league tournament today. I beat boros.dec. Then I lost to salvagers. I feel like rule of law may deserve consideration in the sideboard.

URABAHN
01-24-2007, 08:53 PM
I played this deck in the magic league tournament today. I beat boros.dec. Then I lost to salvagers. I feel like rule of law may deserve consideration in the sideboard.

I feel like Rule of Law costs too much and gets bounced during your EoT step. Then IGGy Pop wins during their turn or Solidarity goes off in response when you try to play it again during your turn.

sammiel
01-24-2007, 09:16 PM
what other answers do you have to combo, that aren't shut down by xantid swarm and/or defense grid?

Obviously it can be bounced, but it's still a very valuable tool against a terrible matchup.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-25-2007, 01:04 AM
Chalice of the Void, Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance.


Hachacha.

TheDarkshineKnight
01-25-2007, 11:48 AM
Master Elgin, have you made any changes to Rabid Wombat in the month that has followed since you posted your last deck list?

sammiel
01-25-2007, 12:09 PM
Chalice of the Void, Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance.


Hachacha.

Right, but all of those can still be bounced during your EoT.


Im not trying to claim anything is a bad solution, I'm just saying they are about all equally as bad or good as the other.

The advantage to permanent combo solutions like chalice or rule of law, is that they mean that your opponent cant really combo off until they have bounce or have sculpted their hand perfectly, giving you time to put your anemic clock on them.

The drawback is: you have an anemic clock, giving them ample time to put their hand just right and bounce then combo off.

The advantage to non-permanent combo solutions like Orim's Chant or Abeyance is that, no matter how good your opponent is, you have a chance of making them fizzle their combo with one of these spells cast at the right time

The drawback is: you are vulnerable to the same protection they bring in against force of will, stuff like Xantid Swarm and Defense Grid


Ultimately, I think chant/abeyance is stronger in MWC, since they have applications in other matchups.

Alfred
01-25-2007, 01:10 PM
Right, but all of those can still be bounced during your EoT.


Im not trying to claim anything is a bad solution, I'm just saying they are about all equally as bad or good as the other.

The advantage to permanent combo solutions like chalice or rule of law, is that they mean that your opponent cant really combo off until they have bounce or have sculpted their hand perfectly, giving you time to put your anemic clock on them.

The drawback is: you have an anemic clock, giving them ample time to put their hand just right and bounce then combo off.

The advantage to non-permanent combo solutions like Orim's Chant or Abeyance is that, no matter how good your opponent is, you have a chance of making them fizzle their combo with one of these spells cast at the right time

The drawback is: you are vulnerable to the same protection they bring in against force of will, stuff like Xantid Swarm and Defense Grid


Ultimately, I think chant/abeyance is stronger in MWC, since they have applications in other matchups.

The best thing about Glowrider and Sphere is that most Solidarity decks have to use 7 mana in order to bounce either of them:

4 mana for Cunning Wish and 3 mana for Echoing Truth etc. Most likely this takes them two turns of generating mana to do. Glowrider can also beat down while disrupting too.

The problem with Abeyance (which Wombat runs main anyway) is that Solidarity can counter it mid combo while digging through their deck IR. TES can just attack with a Xantid Swarm then combo out too.

URABAHN
01-25-2007, 04:18 PM
I'm not a big fan of Rule of Law in the sideboard because it's expensive and a seasoned combo player will find a way to return it to your hand at the end of your turn, combo off on their turn, or allow you to take your turn. If you're allowed to take your turn, then you've got to decide whether it's worth it to play Rule of Law again. If you do, you're nearly tapped out and you've added 1 to the Storm count. If you don't, then you've got one or more Rule of Law cluttering up your hand that probably won't be played until you have more lands in play, which means you're giving combo more time to sculpt the perfect hand to beat you. IBA's new board, which includes efficient beaters, might make more sense because then you can conserve mana to play Orim's Chant and Abeyance.

The new board I originally referred to is as follows:

SB:
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Razor Golem
4x Orim's Chant
1x Gilded Light
2x meh. Not sure what to put here yet.

I tested that board vs. Obfuscate Freely playing Solidarity awhile back and I gotta say it ain't bad against Solidarity. I would not play 4 Jotun Grunt because it's hard to fill up your own yard against that deck when you're boarding in more re-active cards. Also, Flash of Insight is bad times for Grunt. I think cutting down to 3 Jotun Grunt and boarding in 3 True Believer is a better way to go. With True Believer, you increase the threat density a little bit, which is important because even with 4 Grunt and 4 Golem you may not see any of them before it's too late, and you force Solidarity to find a bounce spell so they can Turnabout you during your EoT.

With this sideboard, Solidarity has to play Turnabout targeting you at the end of your turn to tap all your lands. As we found out, it's difficult for Solidarity to combo off during your EoT because now you're effectively playing 12 Counterspells (4x Abeyance, Orim's Chant, and Gilded Light). They're all cheap, they're not as bad as Rule of Law in multiples, and you're playing about as many "Counters" as Gro.

nitewolf9
01-25-2007, 04:34 PM
Was the angle's grace/gaea's blessing thing ever tested in this deck? Like, 4 angels grace and 2 blessings in the board (on top of the chants maybe)? Just curious, I forgot what the problem with that was.

Jak
01-26-2007, 09:53 PM
The problem with that is then they can just combo out later if it does work. This deck needs a more proactive approach in the SB as people have said. Adding more cheap creatures to make our wins faster and the cheap "counterspells" help this deck more than cards like gaea's blessing and angel's grace. My SB is

3 jotun grunt
4 true believer
4 razor golem
4 orim's chant

This has been able to work for me a few times, by dropping some quick beats and leaving mana open to use my 4 abeyances, 4 gilded light, and 4 orim's chant.

Jak
01-30-2007, 01:22 AM
This is my list as of now:

Lands
20 Plains

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 RoP: Red
4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
2 Disenchant
4 Abeyance
4 Gilded Light
3 Decree of Justice

Sideboard
3 Jotun Grunt
4 True Believer
4 Razor Golem
4 Orim's Chant

Does this list look optimal?

TheMagicWizard
02-03-2007, 07:07 AM
What is the reason why everyone here plays the Razor Golem in his Sideboard? For mit he ist just a crap card. Of curse he has the impotant body of 4, but against which deck is this a keycard. I dont think you can beat Solidarity that quick. For this Matchup Jotun Grunt is enought beatdown i think.

In my current list i play Sphere of Resitance in the sideobard. it is not realy the best card for the combo Matchup, but it is better than Chalice, becourse this card will lock you also. Only the Beliver is not that good agains Combo, he can be bounced much easyer. But hes just amazing agains Deadguy, so i dont realy know which one of them i play: sphere or beliver. But one for shure: not the Golem! :wink:

Jak
02-03-2007, 11:10 PM
What is the reason why everyone here plays the Razor Golem in his Sideboard? For mit he ist just a crap card. Of curse he has the impotant body of 4, but against which deck is this a keycard. I dont think you can beat Solidarity that quick. For this Matchup Jotun Grunt is enought beatdown i think.

In my current list i play Sphere of Resitance in the sideobard. it is not realy the best card for the combo Matchup, but it is better than Chalice, becourse this card will lock you also. Only the Beliver is not that good agains Combo, he can be bounced much easyer. But hes just amazing agains Deadguy, so i dont realy know which one of them i play: sphere or beliver. But one for shure: not the Golem! :wink:

The reason people are leaning towards creatures is to go more aggro-control. With just siding in things to stop combo, we are not really doing anything because we can not lay down any threats at all. So that is why people are playing Golem. I play true believer because it stalls the opponent while beating which helps a lot. I am testing splashes right now like Wu and Wb for stuff like duress and extirpate or stifle. I am happy with Wb because it has strong, fster creatures plus fast disruption. I still play mono white, but this is the list I have been testing.

Lands
12 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Damnation
3 Duress
4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
2 Disenchant
4 Abeyance
3 Gilded Light
3 Decree of Justice

Sideboard
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Orim's Chant

This is just what I have been testing. I think it could improve a lot.

URABAHN
02-04-2007, 09:18 AM
What is the reason why everyone here plays the Razor Golem in his Sideboard? For mit he ist just a crap card. Of curse he has the impotant body of 4, but against which deck is this a keycard. I dont think you can beat Solidarity that quick. For this Matchup Jotun Grunt is enought beatdown i think.

In my current list i play Sphere of Resitance in the sideobard. it is not realy the best card for the combo Matchup, but it is better than Chalice, becourse this card will lock you also. Only the Beliver is not that good agains Combo, he can be bounced much easyer. But hes just amazing agains Deadguy, so i dont realy know which one of them i play: sphere or beliver. But one for shure: not the Golem! :wink:

How much testing have you done against Solidarity? Go ahead, play with 4 Jotun Grunt as your only SB creatures and see how often you find one before Solidarity kills you. Play with 4 Jotun Grunt and see how long you can keep it in play before you cannot pay the upkeep.

Sphere of Resistance is better than Chalice because it locks you also? HUH? Why would you play a card that locks you down over a card that doesn't lock you down?

I think you're underrating True Believer, it's true he can be bounced, but that's true of any creature in this deck. I don't see your point. True Believer protects you against Deadguy Ale's discard effects, but that's hardly a good enough reason to run him against Deadguy. You still have to deal with Vindicate, Sinkhole, and other disruption. I can't even remember what the Deadguy Ale list looks like because I haven't seen that deck played in ages.

TheMagicWizard
02-04-2007, 09:28 AM
Sphere of Resistance is better than Chalice because it locks you also? HUH? Why would you play a card that locks you down over a card that doesn't lock you down?
I thing you missunderstand me! I mean: In some chases Chalice will lock you down. Lock at all the 1 CC Drawspells you cant play: Bandage, Festival and also the essential Orims Chant.


ow much testing have you done against Solidarity? Go ahead, play with 4 Jotun Grunt as your only SB creatures and see how often you find one before Solidarity kills you. Play with 4 Jotun Grunt and see how long you can keep it in play before you cannot pay the upkeep.
Your right: I dont tested this matchup, because in germany Solidarity isnt played very often. But anyway: Is the Golem realy the only way to beat Solidarity? Arent there creatures that are stronger??? A power of 3 isnt very much and gives the combo player engouh time to go off, i think. Of course a beater is important, but we also have the Decree!

Poron
02-04-2007, 01:37 PM
Why, why not Exalted Angel MD???

calosso
02-04-2007, 01:40 PM
I thing you missunderstand me! I mean: In some chases Chalice will lock you down. Lock at all the 1 CC Drawspells you cant play: Bandage, Festival !

Ummm, yea you can play festival.

Poron
02-04-2007, 01:55 PM
The only way a CotV may hurt you at 1 is the cut of StP...

Anyway this is a control deck and it's mono white.. not to play Seal of Cleansing or Disenchant 2x maindeck, is just brainless..

calosso
02-04-2007, 02:01 PM
The only way a CotV may hurt you at 1 is the cut of StP...

Anyway this is a control deck and it's mono white.. not to play Seal of Cleansing or Disenchant 2x maindeck, is just brainless..

Why? What Artifacts or enchantments hurt you?

Jak
02-04-2007, 03:09 PM
For just random stuff like pithing needle on decree, or a jitte that is kicking your ass. I like it because it is so versatile.

herbig
02-04-2007, 04:07 PM
I was thinking about playing the mirror, as unlikely as that would be, but would you choose to draw instead of play? I think so.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-04-2007, 05:33 PM
You're going to choose to draw against a random opponent with this deck anyway.


Allan and I were discussing fitting 2 RoP:Red's back into the deck, but I didn't want to cut Gilded Lights. Although it seems counter-intuitive, I'm giving thought to cutting the StPs. While Swords to Plowshares is far and away the most efficent 1-for-1 creature removal ever printed, it becomes a question of: Does this deck really ever want 1-for-1 creature removal? I was thinking of fitting 2 RoP's and 2 something else in those slots. Options include Radiant's Judgement, Secluded Steppes (if this option, it could be -1 Plains in addition, +3 Steppe), one or two Heal for extra Lackey protection, Rout for extra Wraths, Moat, or the 4th Decree.

Jak
02-04-2007, 06:16 PM
I would not cut something like swords which just works against so many decks for something that is good like RoP: Red, but is narrow. I have been able to fit two into my build without any problems. Here is my list.

Lands
20 Plains

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 RoP: Red
4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
2 Disenchant
4 Abeyance
4 Gilded Light
3 Decree of Justice

Sideboard
3 Jotun Grunt
4 True Believer
4 Razor Golem
4 Orim's Chant

I was also thinking about Voidstone Gargoyle for the razor golem slot. With out cheap counters after Sbing, we can easily hold them off till like the 5th turn. With Believer down play gargoyle naming Wish and good game. Just a thought. Have not tested with it at all.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-05-2007, 12:08 AM
If you drop Gargoyle with a True Believer out, Solidarity will kill you inr esponse 95% of the time. The good thing about Razor Golem is he either comes down turn 3 before Solidarity can usually combo off, especially if you're on the play, or you have "counter" magic open.

Jak
02-05-2007, 01:52 AM
But it would make them rush a bit. Probably is not that great. What does your most recent list look like IBA?

torgar
02-05-2007, 03:58 AM
For just random stuff like pithing needle on decree, or a jitte that is kicking your ass. I like it because it is so versatile.

It's not too hard to work around a needle or two, if you save an Abeyance or two to protect it hardcast from either getting countered or wrathed away next turn. Jitte shouldn't be a problem with all the removal. Jitte is only savage in heavy creature wars. Just concentrate on keeping the creatures off the board.

The only think I really ever want a disenchant/seal for is Smokestack.

And I really think x3 Exalted belongs in the main. It's a quick threat G1 vs Solidarity and can stabilize you against Goblins or other aggro / burn. He has won alot of games for me before Dragon/Decree becomes effective.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
02-05-2007, 03:46 PM
The thing is that often you don't have that much time to save up Abeyance for a DoJ for triple angels or whatever. When Threshold is putting pressure on, you really just want to cycle DoJ for 4 and kill the Werebear. Disenchant's been very good to me in testing, I wouldn't cut it at this point in the metagame.

My list hasn't changed much since my last post, except I'm cutting something or the other for 2 RoPs: what depends largely on whether I do end up cutting the StPs.

Jak
02-05-2007, 09:10 PM
And I really think x3 Exalted belongs in the main. It's a quick threat G1 vs Solidarity and can stabilize you against Goblins or other aggro / burn. He has won alot of games for me before Dragon/Decree becomes effective.

Well we are fine versus burn and gobs with RoP in there. Solidarity would already have killed you by the time you could flip angelon turn 4 quickest. You might as well just leave those spots open for more cheap counters or stuff for gobs and thresh.

torgar
02-06-2007, 02:44 AM
Well we are fine versus burn and gobs with RoP in there. Solidarity would already have killed you by the time you could flip angelon turn 4 quickest. You might as well just leave those spots open for more cheap counters or stuff for gobs and thresh.

I just don't want to concede every G1 to solidarity. It's not an auto-loss with x4 gilded and x4 abeyance in the main. but unless you have an Angel.. or a Jotun Grunt, I can't ever see winning a game before the SB. The earliest I would cycle Decree would be turn 6? Which would be three soliders.. and then seven more turns after that for the kill.. Forget about casting dragon. Turn 4 is better than nothing. And you should make it past that if you draw some 'countermagic'.

In other matchups, I've had too many games where I get two Decrees in hand in the early game before turn 7-8 which I don't want to see. I've cut down to two Decrees to fit in the Angels.

I just think that the Rune doesn't win you the game, it stops you from losing. I'm using x2 Rune but it's only two cards in the deck and I've stopped playing Renewed Faith for sometime now. If I don't get the Rune, I find the the Goblin players I test with will take their time and not before forced to overextending into a Shards or Wrath. So Angel is also a good play there to put them away early or at least make them commit their hand. Not to be painfully obvious, but this deck is SLOW. Angel helps that.

Also I've been trying out Moat as well, which makes Angel a good choice.

@IBA- I don't think cutting StP for more Lackey protection (Heal) makes sense.. unless its a plan to lead up to more Moat/Wrath/Routs. In fact, I wouldn't do it at all unless I wanted to go crazy and run CoTV main. (I've tried that and it doesn't work very well. Tariff sucks. :-P )

Jak
02-07-2007, 12:38 AM
Angel comes down turn four, but will not when you the game for like another 4 turns. Solidarity can easily win, so filling a slot with a card that doesn't help weak MUs is pointless. Just devote your SB to combo and hope you can pull out a win. There is really nothing you can do MD to help the MU unless you try to ruin your aggro MU.

When you say "Rune does not win you the game", it really makes no sense. Does wrath win you the game. No, but they both help you in certain MUs. I say you need rune because as you put it if they don't over extend you can prevent. If they do, you wrath.

Angel is just not the answer to anything in my opinion. You weak MU is combo, but it doesn't help that and it does nothing to your aggro MU because with this deck you should already own aggro.

I would take angels out and add something like orim's chant which helps both MU and make your SB an aggro-control route.

torgar
02-07-2007, 10:05 PM
I am trying to address the lack of efficient win conditions. I also run Rune because it keeps me alive longer. But Angel is better complement than just having Rune vs burn because you stabilize while winning. Versus burn or any random aggro.

Although I was reading back awhile in the thread and the consensus seems to be.. just to scoop it up Game 1 vs combo? Especially Solidarity? And come back and win 2 & 3 with the monster hate package.

I just get the feeling that with x4 Light and x4 abeyance in the main, it lends itself to some hope in Game 1 vs Combo.

Would you consider running Chant main despite the fact it doesn't cycle? I know it's good vs both Tide and Goblins... I've sided it in before against Goblins because when you don't have the Shards and need to prevent the alpha strike it keeps you alive to see Wrath.

Or perhaps a quick smaller creature that is effective vs both Tide and Goblins. Like Jotun Grunt. I've kept including a copy or two of him in the main since there's no more Scrabbling Claws. Prior to him, I have lost the occasional game 1 control MU by decking myself. That's a shitty feeling to make it so far and then fall victim to your own engine.

Jak
02-07-2007, 10:28 PM
I think the problem with trying to make yourself have a shot game 1 is you are hurting your goblins MU and other good MU for a win in not that many games. I just think it is better to focus on your good MU in the MD and SB in the hate. You can just take out abeyances and lights and put in 4 chants and 4 creatures for gobos. For combo side it all in. I personally don't scoop it up, but you can't get to unfocused with this deck or it will start to suck.

I have thought about Chant too, but what would you take out? My list is really tight and I would not want to cut anything.

TheMagicWizard
02-11-2007, 04:33 AM
I am interessted in the Glowrider instead of the Razzor Golem in the Sideboard. So lets compare the two:

Of course a big advantage for the golem is, that he has a power of 3 and a body of 4, but i dont think, that his bobdy plays any matter in the impotant matchups in which he comes. The Rider has a power of 2, but his biggest advantage is, that he also lock down Solidarity! He can also come turn3 like the Golem, before the Combo-Player goes of, but he can both: he can deal damage and he also can stop the Solidarity player to go off for some time.

I am no big fan of the golem, but i realy think the Glowrider is better in the Combo Matchups. And I also dont see this Matchup so bad, because the Solidarity player must be so carefull agains Wombat, because we have so many cards, which can fizzle his combo.

Anyway: I changed a little bit on my maindeck and i play now 4 Gilded Light and only 2 Festivals. Its a meta choice, but i think agains Gobbos and NQG the preboarded matchup is just amazing.

torgar
02-11-2007, 03:31 PM
@Jax- I don't have room for Chant myself, I'm playing Moat and Angel. From your list, the only thing I have cut is Renewed Faith. I just didn't find it helping most of the time. I'd almost never hardcast it because I'd rather see the next card and i didn't find the two life making too much of a difference, especially vs Goblins. I'd either usually either die by the Piledriver or not at all.

@IBA- I've tried w/o Swords. I find it kills the BW aggo matchup where often I need cheap removal when Wrath/Shards is out of reach from all the LD/discard.

@Wizards- I like the disruption of Glowrider over Razor Golem. It stops both Solidarity and IggyPop for a good while. The only problem I've ever had was an Iggy player setting an Engineered Plague on clerics.

TheMagicWizard
02-15-2007, 12:11 PM
So i want to schow my newest list. I made some changes in the maindeck and also in the sideobard.

// Lands
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
8 [UNH] Plains
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

I play the Flagstones because its amazing agains Armageddon and it just doesnt do more or less then a plains exept the great effect agains Armageddon and some 1st turn Land Destruction.

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [SC] Gilded Light
4 [SC] Wing Shards
2 [RAV] Festival of the Guildpact
4 [SH] Bandage
2 [TSB] Disenchant
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [WL] Abeyance
4 [9E] Wrath of God
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [ON] Renewed Faith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [DIS] Condemn

In the Sideboard i play the Glowrider, beause he can deal damage and he is also a strong argument agains Solidarity and Iggy Pop. Thats the reason why i play him over the golem. Seal is also agains needle and Landstill in general. The 1 Condem is just the 5th Sword against Deadguy and Gobbos

torgar
02-15-2007, 12:36 PM
I tried running the Flagstones.. x3.

The problem I kept running into was when I needed to cast Wrath on turn 4 or the like, I only had a second flagstones to drop. I thought it was taking away from the early consistency.. but I don't play in a heavy LD meta.

I'd definitely play 1, but 4 looks like your bound to run into a speedbump early and often.

Xero
02-15-2007, 12:49 PM
I sucked balls with this deck at a local tournament last weekend (2-4). What's the boarding plan for Rifter? I brought in Believers and Glowriders (which I think is right), but my opponent left Humility and Pyroclasm in (which I'm pretty sure is wrong).

ookus2
02-15-2007, 01:09 PM
Why would you bring in glowriders against Rifter? It hurts you more then them as they have more cycle cards and you have more cantrips? And True Believer doesn't seem very good either. The problem is that you didn't look at the whole picture. Where you asking yourself what rifter had in the board? Probably stuff to try to beat Solidarity, maybe a couple of needles, REBs and probably (since there was so much thresh) some crypts. That being said, why would rifter take out humility or pyroclasm since they don't have anything to bring in that is better against you.

In the long run, you hurt the matchup by trying to find an answer in your board. But does it really matter? That matchup is pretty bad for you already. Plus you did make several play mistakes including hard casting decree into a humility?

Xero
02-15-2007, 01:18 PM
I would rather bring in Needle against Wombat than leave Humility in. Humility is almost always dead. I didn't expect so much creture kill to be left in, so the creatures could have beaten down for the win.


I. Plus you did make several play mistakes including hard casting decree into a humility?

I did have a Disenchant plus another Decree in hand. It would have been enough to swing for 20 in two turns.

ookus2
02-15-2007, 05:25 PM
Xero: I still think that you are missing the point. So let's try this. What are your win conditions? Creatures (decree, dragon) or to wait till they deck themselves. So why would I remove any of my cards that get rid of your win conditions? Your suggestion was to bring in needle. What would I stop with that? Decree? Dragon? Those are my win conditions too. Take a look at a rifter build and then you might have a better idea what you went up against.

TheMagicWizard
02-15-2007, 06:47 PM
I see the rifter matchup at 50/50 maybe with a little advantage for Wombat. Rifter has of course some dead cards more. A big advantage of Wombat is the draw, so you can have much earlyer have a decree. The point is: You can protect your tokens: He cant! Gogun Grunt against dragon in this Matchup?

Xero
02-15-2007, 07:03 PM
No, the Rifter match-up is overwhelmingly in Rifter's favor. They have the same weapons you have, but also Lightning Rift. Rift can kill you pretty quickly, especially when you can't apply pressure. Its almost unwinnable.


What would I stop with that? Decree? Dragon? Those are my win conditions too. Take a look at a rifter build and then you might have a better idea what you went up against.

If you Needled Decree and Dragon, I would have zero win conditions. You'd still have Rift. Its pretty much moot anyways, whether I had boarded differently wouldn't have made much difference.

bigbear102
02-15-2007, 07:22 PM
Rifter has a huge advantage over Wombat, although it is not overwhelmingly in Rifter's favor. It all depends on the build of Wombat. If you play enough disenchant effects, then the game is about even, if not, they'll rift you out. You have to be careful of how you try to win, cycle decree eot so they can't pyroclasm, and try to Abeyance during their upkeep. They have more ways to deal with soldier tokens than we do (Clasm + Wrath vs. Wrath).

torgar
02-15-2007, 07:33 PM
I agree. Rifter's only advantage vs Wombat is the Lightning Rift. While Rift makes a huge difference, it seems the meta is pushing Wombat towards more disenchant effects.

Especially since I think Stax is on the rise. In particular, Sun Tower has the potential to become a pretty powerful Tier 1 deck.

I've been playing x2 Disenchant main, an Abolish in the SB for Chalice, and I'm considering going up to a third Venegence.

Come to think of it, Flagstones would help in the Stax MU, x4 is just too much though.

Lego
02-15-2007, 09:57 PM
Rifter has a huge advantage over Wombat, although it is not overwhelmingly in Rifter's favor.

I just found this funny... which is it? I don't feel like Rifter has any sort of meta presence right now (I may be wrong :shrug:) so I wouldn't be worried too much about the matchup. Play, um, Scour? Yeah, that's the answer.

Slay
02-15-2007, 11:05 PM
it seems the meta is pushing Wombat towards more disenchant effects.

It is? None of the top 3 decks have anything worth disenchanting that can't be dealt with by Abeyance -> Vengeance whenever you feel like it.

And Stax has exactly the same presence in the metagame as Rifter.

Citrus-God
02-15-2007, 11:39 PM
Well... you guys could try Pithing Needle MDed as well. In the mirror, DoJ is very imporant. WHat you want to probably do is Needle Slice and Dice or Dragon, or even DoJ for that matter. So your best bet is to Needle SnD, and then trade tokens and such. I'm not completely sure, but it works.

torgar
02-16-2007, 12:13 AM
It is? None of the top 3 decks have anything worth disenchanting that can't be dealt with by Abeyance -> Vengeance whenever you feel like it.

And Stax has exactly the same presence in the metagame as Rifter.

The stuff I'm more worried about is not in the top three but in newer developing decks which are Tier 1.5 or just below the "Tier 1" decks. Typically, these are problem artifacts which arise before I have 8 mana (or 6 for that matter) for Abeyance-> Venegeance, of which I run but two. Also I think SunTower is good enough that it's going to become more popular. Much more than Rifter, I'd expect.


Smokestack is the #1 reason I'm using/advocating more disenchant effects.

Belcher is still around.. and responding to it with Gilded Light, Abeyance doesn't help unless you can then kill it before then have another chance to shoot you.

Chalice on 1 + SoFi in FaerieStompy, can be problematic and by the time you can Shards w/ storm support to avoid counters you might be dead.

Cursed Scroll in BW confidant. Meh, I usually cycle my Venegeance early if I see them to stop the early rush since they can keep me off 6 mana for a while or they get discarded away... and some of the lesser common problems, like Scepter-Chant, Survival, Ankh of Mishra in burn, and random Mishra's factories

torgar
02-17-2007, 01:39 AM
Ok.. so I'm going to some big tourney tommorrow, any if I don't finish building SunTower.. then I'm rolling with my steady MWC..

Soooo.. shout out to anyone who can advise me on a couple final slots.
Here's my list:

The Land Tech:

18 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Darksteel Citadel

Kill//
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Exalted Angel
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Decree of Justice

Utility//
4 Abeyance
4 Bandage
3 Orim's Chant
2 Rune of Protection: Red
1 Shining Shoal
1 Festival of the Guildpact

Control//
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Akroma's Vengeance

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Gilded Light
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 3 True Believer
SB: 1 Shining Shoal


Couple explanations:

I've always advocated the Angel. She's a winner in my experience. And if nothing else, she'll eat swords for my dragons.

I took out Gilded Light, since it's only really good vs Tide, where it shines. However, since the theory is lose G1, come back hard G2-3 with the hate, I decided to put them in the board and use Orim's Chant main.. good vs Gob&Solidarity. Chants insure no one messes with a good Wing Shards.

Since there's no Claws/Furnace left to speak of, I decided to include Jotun Grunt as the first in from the board.. He beats, eats threshold, and prevents you from losing the long G1 to decking yourself.

Although, here.. the plan is NOT to deck. It's to beat with Angel after you get and opening.. or recurr Dragon in long matches.. or win of the back of Decree.

Venegeance is at three to be a clear-all w/o relying on dead Disenchants that can't cycle sitting in my hand. While cycling often finds us the right card, sometimes just pitching occasional useless card to the Shoal can save you. Shoal is the nuts... If they're trying to kill you by dmg.. It's never dead. And it's always fun to spank a big reanimated Spirit of the Night or whatever with an Angel to the face.

If it wasn't for Lackey, I'd go all Festival G. over Bandage.. but sigh.


I have three slot left in the board. Possibly options are...
Planar Birth / Sacred Ground vs Armageddon...
More Solidarity hate / fat cheap Creatures.. Maybe Juggernaut, Hunted Lammasu... too bad Calciderm isn't legal. don't laugh, I'm looking for faster ways to win while not losing.
4th Venegeance.. (I HATE playing against Stax.)
Pithing Needle.. random catch-all
Claws/Furnace... Grunt > Threshold ... but sucks in every other sense vs graveyard tricks.



Suggestions are welcome!

torgar
02-17-2007, 01:54 AM
Oh.. and not to double post, but it is completely ridiculous for me to want to put some Shahrazads in there in case I win Game 1? Clearly it's not going to help me WIN that game...

Bwahaha.. I don't love playing this deck so much for no reason!

torgar
02-18-2007, 03:00 AM
Tournament Report!! Ok, so I drove 5 and half hours up to Genosa to play in the Legacy Tournament today.. yesterday. Bringing my build of Wombat I posted about. I added two Sacred Ground to the board, plus a Shahrazad just for fun in case I won G1. And my results were ok, mixed but not terribly disappointing. For this being my first showing at a real big event.. 56 people, I'm glad I succeed at my goal: Don't lose to combo!!


Round 1: Bryant (wastedlife) playing TES.

Game 1: Game starts out as kinda a blur.. I get hit with an early Duress to to which I respond with my Abeyance, knowing it's going to get picked regardless... I have StP, Wrath, nothing relevant, so I can preserve my safety that turn and dig alittle deeper.. so... what do I draw off the Abeyance?? Orim's Chant!.. buh bye. :-( I drop a Grunt, try to beat, but end up putting my own graveyard under my library. Big mistake.. err.. I seem to forget that this deck plays IGG... which means I like have Chant, Abeyance in the yard. I get Tendrils-ed out next turn.

Game 2: Confident in my board's ability to destroy combo... I hunker down with my new-found hate.... Have learned in the past siding out Wraths is a mistake, I go -4 Wing Shards, -2 ROP Red, -2 Decree, -3 Venegeance. 4 Glowrider, 4 G-Light, 3 Believer. I'm suprised when he leads with a Dark Confidant. I get hit with a Duress, he sees Glowrider, Grunt, two Wraths, StP. He takes StP, and then I'm pleased to see an Empty the Warrens get imprinted on a mox. Kudos to me for good boarding!! I drop Glowrider, then he follows with another Confidant... Sheesh.. we trade beats for a turn or two and then I play Grunt, with two open to show the countermagic I don't have. Grunt swings in next turn while Glowrider sits tight and does his job. From his painlands + Confidants + Glowrider beats, he's down to seven on his turn and he passes the turn without attacking. At this point I decide to sit tight and hold back and watch the Confidants kill him since Grunt now is just going help him get rid of them.... which next turn hits... Tendrils.. down to 3.. Then next part is blurry, but it involves a Plunge into Darnkess choosing to sac Confidants for some life... another Confidant.. Grunt beats and an Abeyance.. Anyway, he ends up at 1, on then on the his next turn.. Confidant.. hits..... City of Brass!! heh.. I guess the best zero CC I could ask for. Try to go off using CoB with the ping on the stack, but to no avail.

Game 3: Wow.. he's on the play..
Turn 1: No duress thank god....
Turn 2: He starts to go nuts with two Rituals. Then he plays Petal thankfully.. to which I play Chant. He burns for 5. I drop a True Believer.
Turn 3: Beats.. @ 13.
Turn 4: Beats.. @ 10 Play Grunt.. holding Abeyance and two open.
Turn 5: Beats.. @ 4
Turn 6: Diminishing Returns.. I abeyance... But I'm going to be short on the Grunt upkeep... so my turn.. Upkeep.. bandage, cycle Decree for zero, pay the upkeep and swing for the win.

Awesome! The hate is playing off..


Round 2: Jeff Folnis with Goblins.. (sp)?

Ok.. this is where it all goes wrong. Here's the synopsis.
I drop a turn 4 Moat. Sharpshooter--> swords. SCG --> swords. SCG --> Wrath. I stablize with an Angel, and hit once bringing me to nine. He's where I'm not sure if I made the right play. He's got a couple Goblins in play, four cards in hand and a vial set to 5. I decided.. not to cast Akroma's Venegeance.. which would leave me sans Angel sans Moat and tapped out and open to an easy Warchief-Piledriver death next turn. I can make it another turn, hit once more and really put it out of reach.

So next turn... Matron -> SCG through the Vial.. 8 pts of Goblins at my head plus a Fanatic. WTF OMG.. how did I lose this?!?!? I'm so distraught into the next game my concentration sucks.. ugh. I correctly bring in Sacred Ground and cast it. but it doesn't matter. my Rune gets Disenchanted, and get Port-ed off of Wrath and die. Ok.. wtf... this is the good matchup right? He ends up T8-ing, so I don't feel TOO bad. (Strike that. I still feel terrible about this)


Round 3: Some guy playing Mages, Silver Knight with discard.

This is where it goes to shit.. I get Duressed snatching Wrath leaving me with two Shards. Mage naming Shards. I hit something like 8 lands in the first thirteen cards and promptly die. Game 2 happens much the same except this time he grabs a Swords and leave me with a Wrath, Mage on Wrath.. so my turn... I draw...... a Wrath.. hooray.. I'm still fuming about last round.


Round 4: Leif playing Show and Tell

This is ALOT of fun. First of all, this guy is really cool and we end up kickin' the hackysack around later. Coincidently, we met earlier and between Round 3 and 4, decided to play each other for fun. So I know what's coming. Creatures that are much, much, much bigger than mine. DS Colossus, Simic Sky Swallower, Akroma and such.

G1 I hold him off for a while, but even dropping Dragon doesn't stall for long against these creatures. I swords and shards some stuff but he eventually knocks me out with SSS and Akroma backed up with counters.

G2 and G3.. Both very similar. I save the StP for Akroma, Shards for SSS, and Moat/StP the Colossus. One game he hits a Rush of Knowledge off a SSS for 8 cards. sheesh.. but through careful use of my Abey/Chant and hold him off long enough. G3 I never hit the danger zone... same plan except and I'm holding Shoal/Venegeance for the emergency backup in case my hate doesn't go through, but luckily he uses two of Arcane Denials on his own Petals for draw, so it's never an issue. (Damn, I really wanted to spank Akroma in the face with her own Venegeance.. That would have been the highlight of my day... even better than the Techy MVP play in Round 6) Double Dragon finishes the game. Cheers to Leif, my favorite opponent of the night.

Round 5: More TES.

I almost felt bad, actually winning G1 off early Chant/Abeyance and after I flip an Angel he scoops. G2 is even worse. Glowrider is the man. He gets off an expensive IGG, but I've got x2 Gilded Light, cast one.. and seeing as I can bring back Gilded Light, Wrath, .... and something good.. he scoops.

This is build is just wrecking the combo. TOO BAD I LOST TO GOBLINS.


Round 6: I'm in 12th at 4-2, get paired up and have really no chance at making T8, but hell, I drove over 5 hours. I'm playing this out.

Unfortunately, I never really have a chance here.. I'm playing Survival which leads with Duress, Cabal... I stablize off the back of Grunt... GO GO gadget graveyard shrinker.... then a moat, which gets stomphowlered.. Vengeance.. witness chain... Survival's back.. Vengeance.. witness chain.. why am I not playing Scrabbling Claws again? Grunt's good.. but really, here's where stuffing the shit back in the library really just means.. a speedbump in the form of ummm.. tapping Rofellos ONCE to undo all my hard work. Where's the fear of Pithing Needle I find myself asking him? He's say response for Tin-Street is the answer, but I have my doubts.

Game 2 is similar. Except I REALLY have no chance when he Cabals blind on T1 and hit TWO of my angels... ?!?! I guess my opponents don't dig the Angel.. (C'mon, even more reason that this bitch is good!) The #1 awesome tech-y play(s) of the day go here to this match, where TWICE my Grunt is saved from an untimely death at the hands of a Flametongue Kavu by none other than ... our hero ... Bandage!! I got some incredulous looks and some laugh for these plays at the top table.

There was just too much selection/recursion for me, I didn't mind losing here. No Humility, No Needle, No Claws.. I really have no outs..


So all in all, I'm quite pleased.. except for the fact that now you'll be seeing Tivadar in my new builds.. man.. seriously, I'm only half joking. After wrecking combo so hard.. (I felt like I was just repeated kicking these Combo players in the nuts. If I didn't hate the archetype so much, I'd almost feel bad. Too bad I didn't get a chance to try my hand against Solidarity there.. That'd been the ultimate test.) Hope this is informative!!

Jak
02-18-2007, 03:41 AM
Great report Torgar. LMAO of losing to Goblins, but beating combo twice. So I think you need Renewed Faith. People underestimate the card, but it helps so much against goblins. If you are holding them off, you can just cycle it. But if you need extra time play it for 6 extra life. I also have a question. How many times did angel help versus TES? Because since your combo MU looks alright, I would like to copy it, but am reluctant to put in angel. So my list is the same, but I like Glowriders, so I put them in the board.

Lands
20 Plains

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 RoP: Red
4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
2 Disenchant
4 Abeyance
4 Gilded Light
3 Decree of Justice

Sideboard
3 Jotun Grunt
4 True Believer
4 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant

torgar
02-18-2007, 04:21 AM
Great report Togar. LMAO of losing to Goblins, but beating combo twice. So I think you need Renewed Faith. People underestimate the card, but it helps so much against goblins. If you are holding them off, you can just cycle it. But if you need extra time play it for 6 extra life. I also have a question. How many times did angel help versus TES?

It's ToRgar :-)

In fact, Angel never did anything. Only once vs TES did Angel hit upon which they immediately scooped. They either scooped to the disruption or because of Grunt/Glow beats.. upon which I began to consider if I could sacrifice the power of Grunt for the catch-all of Tivadar/Silver Knight. Razor Golem is still in the discussion here.

I have been thinking along similiar lines... As far as life gain.. I was considering Pulse of the Fields. Most Goblin decks are moving towards x4 SCG. This merits the consideration of Pithing Needle. (as I also lost to Survival.)

I'm actually considering a more aggressive route with Honorable Passage / Shoal / Tivadar (it's a great 2 for 1, I'm serious)
[ I want to circumvent Disenchant effects ruining our plans ]

Jak
02-18-2007, 05:19 AM
My bad man. I guess I was tired and spaced out. I fixed it.

Anyways I am personally glad angel did not do anything because making room for her in my list would kill me. I suck at cutting cards from decks. For the life gain Pulse is great, but I would still keep renewed faiths because of the cycling power. To be able to just get chains going of cycles is great and this deck really needs draw. And finally I wish I could find room for needle because it is real good all around, but I feel I could not cut anything. The only slots I am still testing are in the SB with Glowrider. I would like to see your aggresive build too.

Eldariel
02-18-2007, 06:46 AM
So, you don't suppose you could fit Humility anywhere between SB and MD? That's the one card, Goblins really fold to if it sticks. No more Ringleaders, no more SGCs, no more Matrons. And that rapes Survival too. And Thresh. Basically, it was the card all the decks feared from MWC and what made the deck so succesful against creatures in the first place. Any way you could fit it back, at least on the SB? I mean, post-SB, it's not like you really need Grunts to do more than they already do. Also, something to consider in few Last Breaths on the SB. It's a fine removal-spell against Goblins and most importantly, gives you some versatility in terms of threats against their Mages. You only play 3 different removal-spells (+Vengeance, which is usually too expensive to count against Mage-playing decks), so between discard and MM, it'll be commonplace for them to be able to shut you off removal entirely and you need some good topdecking to be able to do anything about it. Humility or such could also diversify your answers a bit more. Also, don't you think you're hurting the engine of the deck a bit by playing so many non-cyclers? How often were you unable to find something you needed?

As far as Survival goes, if they play 4 Tin Streets, chances are they don't need to fear Needles. They will fold to Humility still though, as it also shuts down their enchantment removal.

Jak
02-18-2007, 02:16 PM
I liked Humility, but when I first started playing the deck I usually just went with what was said. I think it could find a place. The thing that people didn't like about it was Mishra's Factory and Equipment, but now I don't think those are much of a problem with the disenchants and just a swords. What would you cut in my list for it though Eldariel.

Oh and Torgar if survival is played a lot around you, you should really stick a few disenchants in there. They can really screw them up bad.

Eldariel
02-18-2007, 02:48 PM
A Faith, a Light and a Decree or something to that effect. If you expect lots of Stifles, cutting Decree isn't really an option though as you need to get more Decrees off than they have Stifles for. I really prefer it as an SB-card though, seeing that it's strong against aggro-decks only (against manlands, it's the last thing you want, and against combo, even less so). You might want to try something like MDing some Grunts or Chants over stuff and SBing Humility in its stead.

Bryant Cook
02-18-2007, 03:08 PM
It's ToRgar :-)

In fact, Angel never did anything. Only once vs TES did Angel hit upon which they immediately scooped. They either scooped to the disruption or because of Grunt/Glow beats.. upon which I began to consider if I could sacrifice the power of Grunt for the catch-all of Tivadar/Silver Knight. Razor Golem is still in the discussion here.

I have been thinking along similiar lines... As far as life gain.. I was considering Pulse of the Fields. Most Goblin decks are moving towards x4 SCG. This merits the consideration of Pithing Needle. (as I also lost to Survival.)

I'm actually considering a more aggressive route with Honorable Passage / Shoal / Tivadar (it's a great 2 for 1, I'm serious)
[ I want to circumvent Disenchant effects ruining our plans ]

You played Angel against me game one... and I won that game.

torgar
02-18-2007, 03:14 PM
Also, don't you think you're hurting the engine of the deck a bit by playing so many non-cyclers? How often were you unable to find something you needed?

Yes and no.. The point of taking Gilded Light (out of the main) and Renewed Faith (altogether) out of the deck was to avoid those early turns spent unnecessarily cycling for answers. The G1 focus is aggro, so Gilded Light is just going to usually clog up your hand, I'd rather have a T.Believer here. And I found I'd never hardcast Faith since I wanted another (better) card. Though I'm reconsidering the need for lifegain vs Gobs. I much prefered Chant main. Occasionally I found myself with Orim's Chant when I didn't need it.. but it still effectively "draws" a card because against both aggro and combo, it's a virtual timewalk. While it really gives me no card advantage, (Should read: Both players draw a card and do nothing.) it is a much better card. Shoal is wonderful- it's free when you want, can be cast when you don't want to lose a card, adds Storm, works vs burn, and targets your opponent for their creatures, and adds versatile card choice. No dead disenchant, as I opted for the slower, cycling 3rd Venegeance. Other than that my only non-cyclers are Shards, Wrath, Swords...

[Shoal also is there to save dead, non-cyclers.. as in the case of Moat, Shards.]

torgar
02-18-2007, 03:19 PM
You played Angel against me game one... and I won that game.

True, I forgot that.. The time that Angel caused a scoop was my second TES match.

Eldariel
02-18-2007, 04:03 PM
Chant is pure card disadvantage, since you play one card for you both to draw a card, but it can still win critical games against Goblins and the like, stopping their alpha strike and allowing you to recoup lost cards with Wrath/such. What about the Humility-issue, torgar? Feel like considering one on the sideboard?

Jak
02-18-2007, 04:34 PM
@ Wastedlife

What did your hands look like in the games that you lost. Were they just crappy draws or something, or is Wombat that good.

torgar
02-18-2007, 04:49 PM
I am.. but it's making me so strongly consider using a Enlightened Tutor toolbox.. because then we're tooling around with Moat, Humility, Scrabbling Claws, Pithing Needle, and Seal of Cleansing > Disenchant.. oh yeah and don't forget my DS citadel in times of desperate need. possibly even a one of Mask. I know it's slow but a single Mask > Believer vs SGC.

nightshade81
02-18-2007, 05:39 PM
Just wondering what you guys think about my current list.

5 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Secluded Steppe
2 Thawing Glaciers
1 Kjeldoran Outpost

3 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice

2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Wing Shards
4 Renewed Faith
2 Rune of Protection: Red
4 Abeyance
2 Disenchant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Condemn

I like this mana base better then the standard MWC version because of it’s ability to survive Flashfires. Once in tournament I had a red thres deck Flashfire me three times and I still won that game. I truly think that every version of this deck should run 1-2 Thawing Glaciers. 17 Plains 2 Thawing Glaciers is very strong. It allows you to get land without a Dragon or alternative if it becomes needled. The outpost is just personal preference and isn’t counted as a mana when determining land count since it’s the 20th land. I just love forcing people to overextend because you can cump their untragetable 3/3 into oblivion.

I was just wondering if anyone had put any thought into a manabase that wasn’t straight plains.

torgar
02-18-2007, 06:19 PM
Now you are open to Wasteland, which is much more prevalent than Flashfires. If Flashfires is a big problem in your area, play Sacred Ground or Planar Birth in the SB.

Jak
02-18-2007, 08:39 PM
Yeah I don't like the mana base with Thawing glaciers, Outpost, and Steppe. I feel you will be getting off really slow when you need that first mana against Goblins. You have 7 lands in which don't do anything once they come into play, which really hurts when you need that wrath turn 4.

I would also get bandage in there. I was reluctant at first, but it does so much. It cantrips, builds up storm, and stops lackey. Too good. I would cut condemn.

torgar
02-18-2007, 11:58 PM
Here's the new list I'm using. It's been outfitted to implement some of the changes.. (and yes.. I cut Angel. grumble grumble)


18 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Darksteel Citadel

3 Eternal Dragon
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Decree of Justice

4 Abeyance
3 Orim's Chant

3 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Akroma's Vengeance

4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
1 Shining Shoal

1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Pithing Needle
1 Rune of Protection: Red
1 Scrabbling Claws
1 Moat
1 Seal of Cleansing


// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 Gilded Light
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 3 True Believer

outsideangel
02-19-2007, 02:54 AM
It's ToRgar :-)

In fact, Angel never did anything. Only once vs TES did Angel hit upon which they immediately scooped. They either scooped to the disruption or because of Grunt/Glow beats.. upon which I began to consider if I could sacrifice the power of Grunt for the catch-all of Tivadar/Silver Knight. Razor Golem is still in the discussion here.

I have been thinking along similiar lines... As far as life gain.. I was considering Pulse of the Fields. Most Goblin decks are moving towards x4 SCG. This merits the consideration of Pithing Needle. (as I also lost to Survival.)

I'm actually considering a more aggressive route with Honorable Passage / Shoal / Tivadar (it's a great 2 for 1, I'm serious)
[ I want to circumvent Disenchant effects ruining our plans ]


Surprising as it sounds, it was actually Angel that I scooped to that round. I had an okay starting hand, but just drew terribly. The early Abeyance didn't do much but stall me for a turn, since I recal you playing it on my upkeep.

The thing was, you had hit Wrath mana, so Empty the Warrens was out, and the deck usually barely hits storm 10 for Tendrils. Connecting twice and gaining 8 life off of Angel made a win nearly impossible.

Anyway, my point was that Angel is a relevant clock that puts you progressively further and further out of Tendrils range, and that's a good thing.

I probably shouldn't have scooped the second game to you, but I had gotten completely wrecked by what should have been positive matchups all day, and just wasn't feeling so hot.

Anyway, grats on placing so highly, and a strong showing with MWC in a field full of combo.

Lego
02-20-2007, 10:26 AM
Is there any reason not to play Chalice of the Void in the board? Along with Glowrider, it can begin to make combo matches approach winnable. With a clock provided by Jotun Grunt and Angel, seems like you might actually win a few :smile:

nightshade81
02-20-2007, 02:39 PM
Phyrexian Furnace > Scrabbling Claws

TheMagicWizard
02-20-2007, 06:20 PM
Is there any reason not to play Chalice of the Void in the board?
Chant, Bandage, Festival = 10 Dead cards. ;)

torgar
02-20-2007, 07:03 PM
And chalice doesn't beat face.

Lego
02-20-2007, 10:26 PM
Chant, Bandage, Festival = 10 Dead cards. ;)

You obviously board Chalice instead of Chant, and you board out Bandage. Festival isn't dead because you just play it for 1.

Jak
02-20-2007, 11:22 PM
I have tested chalice and it is not as good as the strategy is now. Postboard against combo you want to turn into aggro-control with counters and creatures that slow them down. Chalice is good, but not being able to put chants in is bad. What are chants for then then? Plus Torgar smashed TES twice with a boarding style like this.

Jak
02-25-2007, 07:17 PM
I have a question of what to do for combo. When do you guys usually play Orim's, Light, and Abeyance when Solidarity, TES, and IGGy are going off? I always just get confused and play them too soon or something.

TheMagicWizard
02-25-2007, 07:35 PM
I have a question of what to do for combo. When do you guys usually play Orim's, Light, and Abeyance when Solidarity, TES, and IGGy are going off? I always just get confused and play them too soon or something.
Against Solidarity i usaliy play it in response of Meditate, cuz it is an essential Card in the Combo. I think it is not the best idee to play Chant after the first spell of Solidarity. We should let him play High Tide and Reset, and usaliy Meditate and then in response we can play. So he lost 3 Keycards and we get an extra turn. Good deal and we have 12 Cards for it!!!

Silverdragon
02-25-2007, 08:13 PM
Against Solidarity i usaliy play it in response of Meditate, cuz it is an essential Card in the Combo. I think it is not the best idee to play Chant after the first spell of Solidarity. We should let him play High Tide and Reset, and usaliy Meditate and then in response we can play. So he lost 3 Keycards and we get an extra turn. Good deal and we have 12 Cards for it!!!
This is really dangerous because if you really let your opponent resolve High Tide and Reset then he has all the mana he needs to play another drawspell in response to your Chant or basically do whatever he wants. Unlike blue decks that get more counters active after Tide resolves you have to "counter" the Tide with your Chant so Solidarity can't get broken. Of course it is nice to draw a Tide, Reset and a Meditate out of your opponents hand but consider that exept for lands, Tides and Untapeffects the deck is just Drawspells and Counters so there's a good chance you'll get your Chant countered or just have it sit there on the stack totally ignored.

TheMagicWizard
02-26-2007, 06:47 AM
Yes it is risky. But i think it is also a question how many of the fizzle spells you have on your hand. If there is a Chant and something else I would play it in response of meditate. But of course, these are only few situations witch can happen. For a good timing you have to read his game.

torgar
02-27-2007, 04:30 AM
Against solidarity, you want to Chant after the first Tide. Otherwise you give them too many options with all that mana and your spells are liable to sit on the stack until you die. I swear.. Nothing is more frustrating than having your Chant Twincast-ed back at you and then Remand-ed, so you're sitting there with a Chant in hand and your thumb up your ass.

Against TES, it depends. If you suspect EtW, then sooner is usually better, as in Mox, Petal, Rit... now is a good time since the next play could be EtW for 8. Otherwise, waiting it out for IGG, Diminishing Returns is usually ok. Especially if you have WoG to cover the Goblin tokens.

Against IGG, umm.. you can usually wait alittle longer. I'm not sure, there's alot of different IGG decks I've seen. It's best to be familiar with how these decks work, so play them so you know how to beat them.

I've been thinking about the Goblin MU. Typically, if I lose to Goblins, it's been due to SCG throwing 4-5 Gobs at me or just continually tossing them at me after I've dropped Moat. Perhaps Cursed Totem is worth considering. It stops SCG, Fanatic, Lackey and it helps greatly in other MU. Survival it shuts off Rofellos, QRanger, Tradewind. And it shuts off alot of other random pesky stuff. Lavamancer, Nantuko Shade, Werebear mana?!

I'm working with something like this right now:

2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Moat
1x Cursed Totem
3x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Ivory Mask <- for combo, burn & SCG (normally I think it too slow but I want to be able to Tutor for something in each MU so Tutor isn't dead)


In the SB:
x1 Sacred Ground
x1 Pithing Needle
x2 Disempower

Any suggestions? (other than E.Tutor = card disadvantage, plz)

{Edit: Oooh. How bout a Null Rod in the board vs Affinity and more importantly IGG/TES/Charlbecher combo}

outsideangel
02-27-2007, 04:50 AM
Chalice is probably better than Null Rod against fast storm combo because it comes down turn 1 and lets you keep Chant mana open.

Lego
02-27-2007, 11:28 AM
Perhaps Cursed Totem is worth considering. It stops SCG, Fanatic, Lackey and it helps greatly in other MU.

It doesn't stop Lackey. It only stops activated abilities, not triggered ones. I do like it anyway though. At 2 mana you can pretty well shut down Survival (the inability to do this is why Damping Matrix is bad) and it hits a couple other decks as well (Ravager comes to mind.)

SpatulaOfTheAges
02-27-2007, 05:23 PM
However, it stops neither Orangtuan, nor Survival.

torgar
02-27-2007, 07:05 PM
Totem hurts alot of Survival's enablers, like BoP, Rofellos, etc. But I also included the Scrabbling Claws/Furnace to help that MU.

Eldariel
02-27-2007, 07:17 PM
Totem hurts alot of Survival's enablers, like BoP, Rofellos, etc. But I also included the Scrabbling Claws/Furnace to help that MU.

I know I've said this before, but it should be obvious...Humility...

torgar
03-12-2007, 02:58 PM
I just won a small 8 person tourney with this. 6-0 (12-0) Admittedly, the field was somewhat subpar. The only game I was in serious danger of losing was against a weird RGW angel+fires. He cast Waylay with two Fires of Yavimaya in play. I savagely ripped a Shards off a blind Bandage. The only difference to the deck was there was a Jotun Grunt and a Cursed Totem in MD and Scepter in the side. But with Chant, Abeyance, GLight, StP, and even Bandage floating around in the deck, I realized I love the one Scepter main with the Etoolbox. It just hoses some MUs.

I liked it w/o Angels. But I haven't been playing against combo recently. They might make in the side.



18 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Darksteel Citadel

4 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice

4 Abeyance
4 Wing Shards
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bandage

2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Orim's Chant

4 Wrath of God
4 Renewed Faith

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Moat
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Rune of Protection: Red

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 3 Gilded Light
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 1 Sacred Ground
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Ivory Mask

Nihil Credo
03-12-2007, 03:47 PM
My second anti-Storm slot (after 4 Glowriders) would probably go to Sphere of Resistance, which unlike Chalice and Trinisphere cumulates its effect with Glowriders'.

Slay
03-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Okay, I've been playing this deck for a while, and I've come to a few observations:

First: Chalice is absolutely amazing. everyone needs 4 in their boards at all times. If you can stick one against Threshold it's stupidly effective and cuts off their card advantage, which seems to be the key to the threshold matchup.

Against combo, I'll mull to 4 to find Chalice because it's that good. I know it doesn't win games, but TES can beat you if you give it a turn uninhibited. If you don't have this in your board you're playing an inferior deck.

Second: Mind Stone is TITS. It enables third turn Wraths which means it's an extra out against Lackey, and it nullifies a Rishadan Port. This makes the Goblins game way better.

Third: Jotun Grunt sucks. It looks awesome on paper, you get to kill their graveyard while dealing them damage/defending yourself. But it's never important when you need it to be. Against aggro decks, they'll have no graveyard, so you can pay the upkeep once, max. Which means it's a two turn fog, and that's only really effective against 10-land stompy. Against control decks, they can just wait the upkeep out and then start attackign again. Or kill it. Meanwhile they're building card advantage and you're guaranteed to lose card advantage since Jotun Grunt does not draw you cards. Against combo it's basically an 8-damage burn spell, which sucks because you don't care about burning them, you care about them not dealing you 20 to the face. Shitty there too. Overall I've never been happy to see a Grunt unless I already have Chalices on the board and Chant effects in hand. And against Solidarity, it's like a Gaea's Blessing that they can bounce. Terrible.

Fourth: Bandage and Festival are crap. Don't play them. They can easily lead to mana screw if you keep a questionable hand, and don't kill shit. That makes them bad, and pisses me off when I draw one midgame or lategame. I needed a land, not a cantrip into a land, that just gives me the same amount of mana as last turn, which means I don't get to cast my cool spell which means I die. Bad cards. Play real cards instead.

That's all for right now.

torgar
03-25-2007, 06:17 PM
I agree, Chalice is nasty. It's especially nice since it works around Xantid Swarm quite nicely. Additionally, it proves useful in other MUs. Setting it a one vs Burn/Elves/other randomness can be a real shot to the nuts. Setting it for two against Loam decks is great too.. so I've started using it again.

And I've cut Bandage/Festival. I agree I wasn't finding them as useful and just put the Gilded Lights back in.

I think something which is worth considering though, is Martyr of the Sands. I know he was discussed earlier but this guy is really amazing. He provides another answer to Lackey and gaining 15-18 life on turn 2 is really just amazing against most decks. He helps in ALOT of MUs.

Advantages:
TES/IGG.. this will give you a big advantages, espec with the anti-combo configuration. also can buy you enough time to Wrath away EtW tokens.
Goblins.. blocker + 2.5-3 hardcasted Renewed Faiths (which I've cut for Martyr). Need I say more?
Thresh- Life is good! And he stops pecking Mongeese early game.
Anything that tries to kill you via dmg !!!

Disadvantages..
Solidarity.. well... he IS a beater...
You have to reveal your hand.. This is not as bad as it usually seems.. since, first of all, I don't sac Martyr unless I need to or they waste removal on him. The only real forseeable problem would be against Meddling Mage, but I've already had some problems with him. And sometimes, you lose suprise on the Wing Shards.. but if you're worried about that.. just DON'T reveal the Shards.. You don't have to.

Oh, and that one Scepter is really really good too. It's literally another win condition. Alot of decks scoop to Chant-lock.

(Oh, and I like Mind Stone but I have no room for it.)

TheMagicWizard
04-02-2007, 10:12 AM
After lots of test games agains goblins I come to the conclusion, that this Matchup is still bad for us. Yes on the paper we cant lose, but please play some test games and you will see, that this matchup ist not 80:20 for you, its 80:20 for the gobbo player, because of one card: RINGLEADER. It please nearly no role how good you are drawing: You will ever see the 4 Ringleaders on his side, because you have nothing to handel him. He draws just more and more goblins and you cant handel all, even if you play 100% removal!

So what to do? There aren't many ways: 1st: a color splash: I will not do this, because i would play an UW Landstill after this. The secound option is the good old Humility. So 3-4 Humility main would improve this matchup and bring it to the good old 80%. But it will make many other matchup worse, so i play Enlighted Tutors in my current list AGAIN.

The Toolbox effekt allows us some tricky things agains many decks in the midd- and lategame. I just thing over which cards i play in the final toolbox, but here is my current list:

// Lands
9 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
9 [UNH] Plains
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [DS] Razor Golem

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
1 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [SC] Wing Shards
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [WL] Abeyance
4 [SH] Bandage
4 [9E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [9E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SC] Gilded Light

LrdMcCaffrey
04-02-2007, 10:58 AM
A randomly interesting idea that Parfait used to use that would be very powerful with Enlightened Tutor is running a single Blood Moon backed up by a single Plateau to Dragon for. I might put in an additional white fetch just to be safer. It will be completely unexpected, fairly easy to resolve with all the Chants/Abeyances, and is a card alot of decks really don't want to see.

Choke and Back to Basics are other simialar options, but I prefer Blood Moon because Choke, while it murders Threshold, doesn't affect Landstill or LftL decks nearly as much, and Back to Basics suffers alot from the introduction of fetchlands that mean decks can search out a workable manabase after it is resolved. Blood Moon, while it gives them the same amount of mana, completely colorscrews most opponents as well as shutting down all "fancy" lands.

I wouldn't really consider this a color splash as it's 1 card (2 with the land) that doesn't change any of the purpose of the deck, just gives you another tutorable bomb.

Man...I wish Land Tax was unrestricted heh. Tax-Rack backed up by unrestricted Enlightened would be sweet. It's not like it's broken, it's just good.

Slay
04-02-2007, 12:21 PM
Enlightened Tutor is really, really bad. It's maybe good as a 1-of in a combo-heavy meta to fetch out a solo maindecked Chalice or Aura of Silence but after that it's basically worthless.

And, against Predict it's way less than worthless.

The Goblins matchup is winnable by having enough removal to get card advantage, then hardcasting decree and holding the other guy off until you win with flyers. I do this with a combination of Humility and ROP: Red/Renewed Faith. You win against other random zoo decks with spot removal and humility.

TheMagicWizard
04-02-2007, 01:16 PM
Enlightened Tutor is really, really bad. It's maybe good as a 1-of in a combo-heavy meta to fetch out a solo maindecked Chalice or Aura of Silence but after that it's basically worthless.

And, against Predict it's way less than worthless.
Did you even test this card? It gives you the solutions agains Combo and Aggro. Preboard it just wins you many games, because you will not find much Enchantment/Artefact Removal. For shure agains Control ist worthless, but please look at the meta, how many pure controldecks do you see?!

Predict is a weak argument against the tutor. It is just one card which only is played in NQG and the chase, that you play you E-Tutor before he uses his predict is very low!


The Goblins matchup is winnable by having enough removal to get card advantage, then hardcasting decree and holding the other guy off until you win with flyers.
Yearh thats but you will not have such a draw in every game and of course: postboard the matchup is weaker because of Armageddon. For shure every matchup is winnable, but the Ringleaders will destroy you when you have nothing agains them. Just beat the goblin player down after mass removal isnt a good idea, because in the most games he will be just quicker than you, and in the lategame you just dont have all your removal on your hand, because h can make also cardadvantage with Ringleader and just have the advantage, that he can hold most cards of his hand.

Slay
04-02-2007, 11:35 PM
Did you even test this card? It gives you the solutions agains Combo and Aggro. Preboard it just wins you many games, because you will not find much Enchantment/Artefact Removal. For shure agains Control ist worthless, but please look at the meta, how many pure controldecks do you see?!

Yes, I did test the card. I had it in my deck as a 1-of for a week before I realized it sucked and led to too many losses. Let me break this down for you. Rabid Wombat is ADDICTED to card advantage. If it doesn't have card advantage, it will lose. That's why we don't have Chants maindeck or Isochron Scepters maindeck, despite them being bombtastic cards. Any time you risk giving them card advantage, or even card parity, you stand a chance of losing that game. Going one card down to find somethign which won't give you card advantage is going to lose you more games than you realize. And if they counter or remove the card you're looking for, not only did they get a 2-for-1, but you removed an extra bomb spell from your deck. If that Tutor had been a fourth Humility, you could have casted it, gained card parity by them countering it(or gained Humility advantage by having it in play) while still having the last three as backups. Tutor leads to too many risky situations which only end in disaster.


Predict is a weak argument against the tutor. It is just one card which only is played in NQG and the chase, that you play you E-Tutor before he uses his predict is very low!

I'd rather not have an even weaker game against one of the best and most prevalent decks in the format, thank you very much.


Yearh thats but you will not have such a draw in every game and of course: postboard the matchup is weaker because of Armageddon. For shure every matchup is winnable, but the Ringleaders will destroy you when you have nothing agains them. Just beat the goblin player down after mass removal isnt a good idea, because in the most games he will be just quicker than you, and in the lategame you just dont have all your removal on your hand, because h can make also cardadvantage with Ringleader and just have the advantage, that he can hold most cards of his hand.

You're overrating Ringleader. If he's costing you the game you should consider adding extra Wrath effects and saving them. The strongest way to deal with Goblins is to fight off their initial rush, then get some Angels or a Dragon onto the field, and start beating down while killing all their main Goblins. You'll only really lose to Ringleader if you let them get enough turns to start playing multiples. Don't.
-Slay

torgar
04-03-2007, 03:14 AM
Goblins is a much more difficult match than it looks on paper, I agree. The problem with Ringleader, is that it specifically attends to the point about Wombat being so hungry for card advantage. The problem is that Wombat uses X for 1 sweepers like Shards/Wrath to keep Gobbos down. When playing against smart Goblin players with experience against playing against Wombat, I find that my opponent will use two strategies. Either:

(1) the nuts draw backed by Port disruption.. here StP helps save us by takin down a Warchief or Matyr lifts you out of the red zone long enough to stabilize. This is also why I play Chant MAIN. It buys you a turn here, owns combo, and forces through your spells vs Thresh. Although sometimes the nuts draw just owns. Goblins can be that explosive.

(2) The Goblin player plays conservatively enough to negate the CA of our sweepers, rarely emptying his hand for an alpha strike, relying on pecking away for the first several turns. This is how most experienced players play against me. Here Ringleader doubles to negate our CA plan by refilling their hand. It is a nasty problem. The Goblin player knows Dragon will hit Turn 7 the earliest and you'd have to be a fool to tap out for Dragon then because then the alpha strike WILL come. DoJ is the same problem.. Decreed Angels don't save you vs Goblins. You could make one 4/4 on Turn 6, hardly impressive. (Assuming you don't miss a land drop, which can happen often running x20 land) Neither do soldiers. Again, you could cycle to trade with a Matron on Turn 4. (or lackey, but that seems alittle late) If you want to trade with a Piledriver/Warchief, Turn 5, or both Turn 7. You could chump with Soldiers but it's an expensive Chant where dmg still gets through and spells still get played.

This is why I've added Exalted Angel back. It wins games by giving you the opportunity to apply pressure early.. for either the straight up win OR by making the Goblin player scramble. Either by overcommiting or just by forcing a Matron to be wasted on fetching a solution like Gempalm Incinerator. I win these games with CA in different ways. Enlightened Tutor is very, very, VERY good, so don't mistake it for bad CA. While it loses you a card, it makes up for it in terms of virtual CA by card quality. I run one Moat, one Scepter, one ROP: red all MD ways of generating serious and permanent card advantage vs goblins. The first one is universally applicable vs all aggro with some smaller exceptions like Mystic Enforcer and Hippie. The second, Scepter is a bomb. If you opponent doesn't have an answer, it can typically break the game wide open. StP and Orim's Chant will, without fail, win you the game if they stick. (Plus there's Abeyance and G. Light for the Scepter in other important MUs)

Even if you opponent does have answers... You can easily bait out a counter with a Scepter.. even without an imprint card.. the threat of Chant is so great, Scepter will always draw a counter vs decks with Blue. Again, like E. Tutor, there is the threat of losing CA, but typically I won't play a Scepter unless I'm able to use it the same turn in case is naturalized.. etc.. (I try to get at least one use out of it) Also, both are a ONE of to minimize the risk. However, the reward is so great it is worth the risk. Other decks will play/board around it, boarding in reactive stuff (that doesn't kill you) like Naturalize, setting Needles on your lone Scepter that might have been used on Dragon/Decree. Play with it for a while and be smart about when you decide to fetch it/use it.

Don't forget the powerful options E. Tutor enables from the board, it increases the virtual size of your board as you can afford to run one ofs like...
x1 Sacred Ground
x1 Ivory Mask .. (can lock games vs Goblins, combo, burn)
x1 Seal of Cleansing
x1 P. Needle
x1 Chalice
x1 Phyrexian Furnace

(I've cut Humility since adding the Martyrs.)

Also, I've used E. Tutor to fetch my lone Darksteel Citadel in times of great need where I've got the business but not the mana.

To say E. Tutor is useless or unviable because of Predict is wrong on both counts. (which if you're really afraid of is easy to play around, using Chant effects, cantrips, or god forbid shuffles to protect your silver bullet). It may be a playstyle preference to use the E.Tootbox, but simply stating that its bad CA ignores the fact that it brings amazing power and flexibility to the deck.

In tourney news, I won a small 10 person tourney this weekend with the following list. I beat Red Death (2-1), lost to ThreshUGW keeping a questionable one-land hand G3 (1-2), beat Burn (2-0) in the Swiss.
In the top 4, I beat ThreshUGRw (2-1) and then the other ThreshUGW deck I previously lost to in the finals (2-1). I'm too tired for in-depth match analysis right now.

The SB always shifts depending on the meta. I took out Furnaces cause there were no Crucible/Reanimator decks present. The Martyrs replaced the Renewed Faiths and I liked them alot. Much more efficient at life gain.. plus hey wow, they block stuff!! (Oh yeah, I even sac-ed him once vs Thresh, revealing some Chants and a Dragon, intentionally holding back my Shards which he proceeding to walk right into thinking I was defenseless. I used this ploy more than once for different cards depending on the situation.)

Enough jabber, here's the list:

18 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Darksteel Citadel

4 Eternal Dragon
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Exalted Angel
1 Jötun Grunt
2 Decree of Justice

4 Abeyance
3 Gilded Light
3 Orim's Chant

4 Wing Shards
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
1 Akroma's Vengeance

1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Moat
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Rune of Protection: Red



// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Gilded Light
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 1 Sacred Ground
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ivory Mask
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

from Cairo
04-03-2007, 05:47 AM
@ Torgar
In fairness, I haven’t played much against Wombat, but in my testing, Humility was the card I was most worried about resolving. Even when you can remove it, it still generally buys the deck plenty of time to stabilize. Also it seems like with the abundance of relevant artifacts in the format: Chalice, Needle, Jitte, Vial, Crucible, all of Affinity... and the more or less lack of enchantments: Survival and Humility (I don’t see either of them much)... that more players are shifting to newer more artifact centered solutions like: Tin-Street Hooligans, Pithing Needles and Ancient Grudges as their forms of hate, making enchantments even stronger then they have been in the past. I really wouldn't advocate a move away from a Humility centered build.


Also I would tend to agree with Slay on most of his points. Chalice is very good against top decks: NQG, Solidarity, and TES. Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage unless its target resolves and is greater then a 2for1, and versus NQG it is a liability. If one was going to go a ETutor route though I would probably play 3-4 rather then 1, if calling up silver bullets is the direction one would choose to take, seems natural to want to do it "reliably".

Anyway just 2 cents.

torgar
04-03-2007, 01:37 PM
@ Torgar
In fairness, I haven’t played much against Wombat, but in my testing, Humility was the card I was most worried about resolving.

In what MU? I only find myself wanting Humility against Survival. Moat is better vs Goblins. I really like Humility but honestly, it constrasts with my Dragons, E.Angels, Matyrs, and Grunts so I've opted for a different direction. Humility only really shines with DoJ cycles and manlands.

Moat, like Humility as you pointed out, dodges artifact-specific hate



Chalice is very good against top decks: NQG, Solidarity, and TES.


I'd definitely agree, which is why I run x1-4 SB. The only place I disagree is against Thresh. Chalice is a preemptive solution. It's great if you resolve it early (which is always going to draw a counter), but late game, where Wombat likes to live, it's a dead draw. I prefer to bring in Glowriders, which slow things down and clog up the ground.



Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage unless its target resolves and is greater then a 2for1, and versus NQG it is a liability. If one was going to go a ETutor route though I would probably play 3-4 rather then 1, if calling up silver bullets is the direction one would choose to take, seems natural to want to do it "reliably".


You don't want 3-4 E.Tutor. The CA problem is real which is why it's a one of. Also, there aren't enough targets to justify that many tutors. Think of it a single wild card.

Slay
04-03-2007, 02:07 PM
In what MU? I only find myself wanting Humility against Survival. Moat is better vs Goblins. I really like Humility but honestly, it constrasts with my Dragons, E.Angels, Matyrs, and Grunts so I've opted for a different direction. Humility only really shines with DoJ cycles and manlands.

Moat, like Humility as you pointed out, dodges artifact-specific hate

Siege Gang Commander absolutely wrecks through Moat. Dark Confidant and Hyppie are awesome against Moat when there's Vindicates maindeck. Survival is a deck which, if you don't have Humility, you lose. It's also better against random critters like Enchantresses and Meddling Mages and Salvagers. Though there are situations where it would be a great card, but Wombat has too many bad matchups which are completely flipped by Humility. It's a crime not to play it.


I'd definitely agree, which is why I run x1-4 SB. The only place I disagree is against Thresh. Chalice is a preemptive solution. It's great if you resolve it early (which is always going to draw a counter), but late game, where Wombat likes to live, it's a dead draw. I prefer to bring in Glowriders, which slow things down and clog up the ground.

How is shutting off a third of their deck NOT a good thing? Against Gro I would never not want to see Chalice. I also use Glowriders in the sideboard.

Edit: Glowriders don't clog up the ground at all. They get overrun by 3/3s and 4/4s.

Awesomator
04-03-2007, 02:56 PM
Hey guys, i'm not comopletely familiar with wombat although i have played it from tiem to time. Since most Wombat builds have dedicated their sideboards to combo hate, it seems like it's losing its edge against goblins. Either I keep playing against weak Wombat players, or Wombat doesn't have much of an edge anymore. How have your matchups been against goblins? I am only really asking players who test with very good goblin players or p[layers who have a lot of wombat experience, since I have a little. For the record, I'm a Goblin player, and game 1, moat isn't nearly as scary as humility since I run 3 siege gangs.

from Cairo
04-04-2007, 01:37 AM
In what MU? I only find myself wanting Humility against Survival. Moat is better vs Goblins. I really like Humility but honestly, it constrasts with my Dragons, E.Angels, Matyrs, and Grunts so I've opted for a different direction. Humility only really shines with DoJ cycles and manlands.

Moat, like Humility as you pointed out, dodges artifact-specific hate


Goblins and RGBSA. As Slay mentioned Siege-Gang leaves an out to Moat the isnt an option if you have Humility. Most builds I have seen of Wombat run 3 Humility, where you're only running one Moat, if RGBSA wishes for removal you have no back up enchantment, idk I mean it may work, seems shakey though. Post board you do have one Moat and one Humility, I mean like I said I dont have a ton of experience with the deck, but it always seemed like against agro resolving a T4 Humility or Moat is pretty big play.

I agree that Humility shines with DOJ and Manlands, Dragon can still synergize with the deck too though if you have Akroma's Vengance or whatever to clear the board and then drop dragon. Obviously it doesn't work well with Martyr and Angel, I guess my point was that as an agro player I would worry more about Humility then the ability to use a 1/1 that gains life, Angel is a good threat for sure though, maybe worth it.



I'd definitely agree, which is why I run x1-4 SB. The only place I disagree is against Thresh. Chalice is a preemptive solution. It's great if you resolve it early (which is always going to draw a counter), but late game, where Wombat likes to live, it's a dead draw. I prefer to bring in Glowriders, which slow things down and clog up the ground.


Chalice is a preemptive solution against Thresh and its a stronger early game play then as a late game draw, but it is a must counter card. If it resolves early or mid game its gigantic; it turns off something like 2/3rds of the deck. Thresh counts on its card quality from all the 1cc cantrips if you turn off their draw engine its going to be game swinging.

As a UGr Thresh player I would rather see Glowrider sided in then Chalice. If Thresh has the counter then either is a moot point, if Thresh doesnt have the counter Chalice set for one on turn 2 cripples them probably beyond recovery; Glowrider turn 3, not only gives Thresh another turn to draw, and cast cantrips, but also dies to Swords or Bolt (even if it costs two); on top of the fact that it only slows the ability to dig for a solution, doesnt turn off draw.

Running both together seems great, but I think if going with just one Chalice is more of a must counter and has a more game swinging effect on resolution.



You don't want 3-4 E.Tutor. The CA problem is real which is why it's a one of. Also, there aren't enough targets to justify that many tutors. Think of it a single wild card.

Yea to me it seems like redundancy of good enchantments would be the stronger route, but the idea of running silver bullets with only one "wild card" to access them seems weaker then running redundancy or more tutors.

torgar
04-04-2007, 11:25 AM
# of Tutors:
I can only tell you to try it out yourself. Either way drawing multiple Humilities, Moats, Scepters, Tutors usually ends up with you have dead cards. You just can't run more than two E.Tutors in a deck like this, they're just aren't enough targets. A single Tutor acts as all these cards (some of which you've already drawn).

Humility:
I aim for consistency and my deck is tuned to have good MUs against alot of my more difficult matchups. Goblins, thresh, combo, burn. Angel and Martyr are great to shore up more difficult MUs like TES, burn, Gobs but preclude using Humility. RGSA is probably my weakest match-up right now but I don't see that alot around here.

I understand all too well the outs that Moat leaves Goblins, but either way you are leaving yourself open. Dropping a T4 Humility just means you're going to have to continue to fend off a bunch of 1/1s, the deck is still full of creatures. You still need multiple answers in addition to Moat. If you've already taken a beating, it's not unlikely they can hang around and peck you to death. Dropping Moat means you're done with dealing with any attacking. You now have 4 StP, 4 Abeyance, 4 Wrath, 1 ROP, the lifegain of Angels/Martyrs and for emergencies your Vengeances, to combat their 3 SCG. I'd rather take my options here than having to still fend off a horde of 1/1s. I prefer the Moat/Mask option post-board to completely shut them out.

Thresh:
I agree Chalice is gigantic if it hits early. This means you need to SB at least 3-4 to see it early. Usually, I find it very unlikely that it resolves. I'm either drawing out a counter early, which is good but not worth the times when I then draw it late with threats on the board and I'm in need of a Wrath/Shards. It's completely dead late game and I'm aiming for consistency, not relying on devasting early game plays. It also screws up my own plans alittle too much for my liking especially w Martyr. I know some people have talked about siding out StP because of Mongoose, but I don't think that's right. I take out G.Lights and usually ROP or a Dragon. And if they're using removal on a Glowrider then its just 3 less to me or a StP not used on a Dragon/Angel. Like I said, Wombat lives in the late game. It needs to be able to not only make it there but run alongside decks that can keep up the pressure throughout a long game. You should see how much two Glowriders brings the deck to a crawl with it's manabase.

All I can say is try the deck out more, it's such a long-game beast it requires alot of consistency and alot of familiarity.

Slay
04-04-2007, 05:02 PM
Humility:
I aim for consistency and my deck is tuned to have good MUs against alot of my more difficult matchups. Goblins, thresh, combo, burn. Angel and Martyr are great to shore up more difficult MUs like TES, burn, Gobs but preclude using Humility. RGSA is probably my weakest match-up right now but I don't see that alot around here.

Angel and Martyr do nothing against TES. So they don't combo off? They can just wait another 10 turns while you try and assemble a kill. Angel just makes them have to combo out after the 8th turn, which is a delightful place to be for them.

Angel doesn't shore up the burn matchup at all, they'll just cast a burn spell on it. You might as well be playing Fountain of Youth for all the good they're going to do.

Your thresh matchup is helped equally by Moat and by Humility. Both are devastating cards, but only one, Humility, allows you to cast uncounterable creatures and attack with them. Moat just hurts you too.

Goblins could be argued both ways about which is better, Moat or Humility.


I understand all too well the outs that Moat leaves Goblins, but either way you are leaving yourself open. Dropping a T4 Humility just means you're going to have to continue to fend off a bunch of 1/1s, the deck is still full of creatures. You still need multiple answers in addition to Moat. If you've already taken a beating, it's not unlikely they can hang around and peck you to death. Dropping Moat means you're done with dealing with any attacking. You now have 4 StP, 4 Abeyance, 4 Wrath, 1 ROP, the lifegain of Angels/Martyrs and for emergencies your Vengeances, to combat their 3 SCG. I'd rather take my options here than having to still fend off a horde of 1/1s. I prefer the Moat/Mask option post-board to completely shut them out.

Well sure, if you use specifically your deck, you do have answers to Siege Gang if you get Moat down. That's not the problem. The problem is that the deck you've built is incredibly fragile and vulnerable to a lot more archetypes than traditional Rabid Wombat is.


Thresh:
I agree Chalice is gigantic if it hits early. This means you need to SB at least 3-4 to see it early.

Why the hell wouldn't you play 3-4 Chalices? It absolutely wrecks their deck if you resolve it.


Usually, I find it very unlikely that it resolves. I'm either drawing out a counter early, which is good but not worth the times when I then draw it late with threats on the board and I'm in need of a Wrath/Shards.

Well considering you don't board out Wrath/Shards for it, you'll be likely to hi t it just as often as you'll hit another dead card. And who cares if it is likely to resolve? If it hits, and stays, you win the game. It won't be even remotely close.


It's completely dead late game and I'm aiming for consistency, not relying on devasting early game plays. It also screws up my own plans alittle too much for my liking especially w Martyr. I know some people have talked about siding out StP because of Mongoose, but I don't think that's right. I take out G.Lights and usually ROP or a Dragon. And if they're using removal on a Glowrider then its just 3 less to me or a StP not used on a Dragon/Angel. Like I said, Wombat lives in the late game. It needs to be able to not only make it there but run alongside decks that can keep up the pressure throughout a long game. You should see how much two Glowriders brings the deck to a crawl with it's manabase.

You should be boarding out Martyr against Threshold, and I'm not sure why you're not. It's a terrible card against them.Your consistency is hurt way more by drawing creatures when you instead need an answer to their creatures.


All I can say is try the deck out more, it's such a long-game beast it requires alot of consistency and alot of familiarity.

Thank you for the advice, o master of wombat. Surely my differences with your deck are based on my lacking experience, not the other way around.
-Slay

torgar
04-04-2007, 11:41 PM
Listen, don't turn this into a flame-fest, I know what I'm talking about, so at least respond to my points and let's have an intelligent discussion.


Angel and Martyr do nothing against TES. So they don't combo off? They can just wait another 10 turns while you try and assemble a kill.

You do know TES is build off of a quick storm count to Tendrils you to death. Gaining upwards up 15 life puts a pretty big fucking crimp in that plan. Granted, Angel requires some disruption to be relevant, but quicker win condition + scoring lifegain puts the game that much more out of reach. And my deck packs the TES disruption required for Angel to be relevant.

Assembling a kill is much quicker when you play Angel, btw.



Angel just makes them have to combo out after the 8th turn, which is a delightful place to be for them.


You're joking? I'd gladly take being at the 8th turn with TES.



Angel doesn't shore up the burn matchup at all, they'll just cast a burn spell on it. You might as well be playing Fountain of Youth for all the good they're going to do.


I don't mean to be pedantic, but you do know how a spell targeted against your creature isn't targeted against you? Especially when you're playing Martyr a creature that gets sacrificed in response to a useless spell being throw at it and you gain upwards of 12 life... That's assuming a 4 card hand. I've respected your opinion but to say that Angel does nothing in the burn matchup is just asinine. At the worst, it eats a burn spell. If you can wait till you can flip it/harcast, that's either two burn spells, or a clear connect with the Angel. +4. Combined with the Martyr which is on average, conservatively, is three times better than Renewed Faith for one less mana investment, you have an excellent MU. If you can't survive long enough to flip an Angel, what do you expect in the burn MU anyways?

Obviously, if you can't land an flipped Angel, you clearly already have a serious problem playing against Burn decks. I know I don't like to see Angel if I'm playing burn.



Your thresh matchup is helped equally by Moat and by Humility. Both are devastating cards, but only one, Humility, allows you to cast uncounterable creatures and attack with them. Moat just hurts you too.

Goblins could be argued both ways about which is better, Moat or Humility.



A slew of 1/1s isn't the way I win the Thresh MU. Moat fits better in my build with Grunt, Angel, and Martyr.

I agree about Moat/Humility being debatable in the Goblins MU. I prefer Moat for the aforementioned reasons.



Well sure, if you use specifically your deck, you do have answers to Siege Gang if you get Moat down.


Which Wombat build doesn't run StP, Abeyance, and Wrath?



That's not the problem. The problem is that the deck you've built is incredibly fragile and vulnerable to a lot more archetypes than traditional Rabid Wombat is.


Such as? My build is more resilient against combo, the traditional weakness of MWC.. it also wrecks burn.. a previously iffy MU. I also have a very good Thresh MU. My Goblins MU is still about 50/50. It's worse than it looks on paper. Where are my vulnerabilities?



Why the hell wouldn't you play 3-4 Chalices? It absolutely wrecks their deck if you resolve it.


The key is if. It's devasting, I agree. If your resolve it. Additionally, if you resolve it EARLY. Resolving spells early against Thresh is a difficult place to be with Daze, FoW, and possibly Counterspell. The reason I don't board 4 is because it is dead LATE.. typically when you will be able to resolve it after fighting through their intial counters.



You should be boarding out Martyr against Threshold, and I'm not sure why you're not. It's a terrible card against them.Your consistency is hurt way more by drawing creatures when you instead need an answer to their creatures.


You should see how a single Martyr holds off a Mongoose in the first four turns. I'll gladly trade and gain my life rather than getting pecked.. Late game, it's still a blocker vs Thresh-ed creatures plus the life gain.



Thank you for the advice, o master of wombat. Surely my differences with your deck are based on my lacking experience, not the other way around.
-Slay

Don't be a dick. I've played hundreds of games with this deck. I regularly play it at tournaments. I'm just trying to offer quality advice to fellow Wombat players.

Slay
04-06-2007, 09:30 AM
You do know TES is build off of a quick storm count to Tendrils you to death. Gaining upwards up 15 life puts a pretty big fucking crimp in that plan. Granted, Angel requires some disruption to be relevant, but quicker win condition + scoring lifegain puts the game that much more out of reach. And my deck packs the TES disruption required for Angel to be relevant.

Assembling a kill is much quicker when you play Angel, btw.

Assembling a kill takes exactly the same amount fo time with Angel that it does with Decree. Assuming you aren't morphing it on turn 3, which would be pretty foolish. Decree cycles for 4 on turn 7, Angel can be played morphed on turn 5 with chant backup and unmorphed the next turn. They kill in approximately the same time.

TES is going to win or lose depending purely on your hate cards, I assure you.


You're joking? I'd gladly take being at the 8th turn with TES.

Well no shit, but hwat I was getting at is that they'll be able to combo off maybe 2-3 times in that span. And you better have the Chant/Wrath every time. My point is that it's really foolish to say that your matchup is winnable because of all the stalling cards and lifegain, it still doesn't answer the fundamental concern that their deck can still kill you way faster than you can kill them.


I don't mean to be pedantic, but you do know how a spell targeted against your creature isn't targeted against you? Especially when you're playing Martyr a creature that gets sacrificed in response to a useless spell being throw at it and you gain upwards of 12 life... That's assuming a 4 card hand. I've respected your opinion but to say that Angel does nothing in the burn matchup is just asinine. At the worst, it eats a burn spell. If you can wait till you can flip it/harcast, that's either two burn spells, or a clear connect with the Angel. +4. Combined with the Martyr which is on average, conservatively, is three times better than Renewed Faith for one less mana investment, you have an excellent MU. If you can't survive long enough to flip an Angel, what do you expect in the burn MU anyways?

I give you that Martyr is a ridiculous bomb against Burn. Angel isn't. Of course Angel combined with Martyr is going to rock, because it includes a Martyr.


Obviously, if you can't land an flipped Angel, you clearly already have a serious problem playing against Burn decks. I know I don't like to see Angel if I'm playing burn.

My point is that by the time you can land a flipped Angel, you'll already know whether or not you have won.


A slew of 1/1s isn't the way I win the Thresh MU. Moat fits better in my build with Grunt, Angel, and Martyr.

How DO you win the Thresh matchup? You have so few must-counters that they can take their time.


Which Wombat build doesn't run StP, Abeyance, and Wrath?

A Siege-Gang coming off a Vial with 8 mana open is 8 mana to the head if you have a STP and 16 if you have a Wrath. Also, how does Abeyance help you at all?


Such as? My build is more resilient against combo, the traditional weakness of MWC.. it also wrecks burn.. a previously iffy MU. I also have a very good Thresh MU. My Goblins MU is still about 50/50. It's worse than it looks on paper. Where are my vulnerabilities?

I suggest you re-test your Threshold matchup against good players. It will become a lot worse than you expect.


The key is if. It's devasting, I agree. If your resolve it. Additionally, if you resolve it EARLY. Resolving spells early against Thresh is a difficult place to be with Daze, FoW, and possibly Counterspell. The reason I don't board 4 is because it is dead LATE.. typically when you will be able to resolve it after fighting through their intial counters.

If they don't counter your Chalice, you win. If they do, they're down a counterspell. I'd rather draw a Chalice at almost any point in the game, and it IS useful in the late game, as a Chalice for 2 shuts down Predict which is their best weapon against you and Counterspell. I'd much rather see it than some random critter which they can ignore until they decide they want to kill it, then you.


You should see how a single Martyr holds off a Mongoose in the first four turns. I'll gladly trade and gain my life rather than getting pecked.. Late game, it's still a blocker vs Thresh-ed creatures plus the life gain.

I don't care about being pecked by a 1/1. I care about being pecked by a 3/3, and after you kill the 3/3, being pecked by another one. That's how Threshold is strong against you, by playing low amounts of big creatures and forcing you to go 1 for 1 on removal. Martyr doesn't stop that and only delays the inevitable. And because you have such low threat density, they can afford to wait.


Don't be a dick. I've played hundreds of games with this deck. I regularly play it at tournaments. I'm just trying to offer quality advice to fellow Wombat players.

It's fine to say your deck is better, and here are the reasons. But don't say your deck is better, and you would know that if you played it. That's just being an asshole.
-Slay

from Cairo
04-07-2007, 05:09 AM
A slew of 1/1s isn't the way I win the Thresh MU. Moat fits better in my build with Grunt, Angel, and Martyr.


As Slay pointed out chances are Thresh is going to only be playing out 1-2 threats at a time against you. Forcing you to make bad trades 1 for 1ing away their guys, if you resolve humility and Thresh doesnt pack disenchant main, you have probably won right there. They have 10-12 creatures if you can DoJ for 5-6 you have half their win conditions matched in one single card. The only cards in the Wombat that Thresh is going to care about are Humilty/Moat; Humility makes all Thresh's threats irrelevant, Moat means they need to dig up a Dragon/Enforcer and protect it, fairly quickly.

In the case you are discribing of sticking a Moat and having it synergize well with Grunt, Angel and Martyr, if you have stuck the 4cc enchantment, Moat means that your tech guys can still opperate and turn 7-8 you can get Angel going assuming it goes uncountered. Sticking Humility vs Gro means they just have no threats anymore and you have an uncounterable win condition.



This means you need to SB at least 3-4 to see it early. Usually, I find it very unlikely that it resolves. I'm either drawing out a counter early, which is good but not worth the times when I then draw it late with threats on the board and I'm in need of a Wrath/Shards. It's completely dead late game.


In the case of Thresh, Chalice shuts off their draw engine at any point in the game, so unless you have already completely won/lost then its never going to be dead. Again its a must counter card against a deck that really isnt too threatened by most of your spells so trying to proactively cripple them is a stronger play then sitting back and watching them cantrip into the 3-4 counters it will take to answer the few must counter solutions Wombat offers.

It's undisputed that it is going to be one of your better solutions against combo.



My build is more resilient against combo, the traditional weakness of MWC.. it also wrecks burn.. a previously iffy MU. I also have a very good Thresh MU.


How is not running Chalice main make it more resilient versus Combo? A Chalice for 1 is huge versus Combo and Thresh, and coincidently pretty solid versus Burn. Martyr is also good against burn, if this is a match you really need support in though it seems like Martyr would be a better candidate for the board then the main. As mentioned Angel isnt too impressive it trades 1for1 with one of their burn spells early in the game and if you make it to late game you have won anyway.

Dropping Chalice turn two versus burn though it may not win you the game, will mean that their top decks are going to be severly hurt, and burn more then any deck I can think of relies on consistantly top decking its damage to win out in the first few turns, even one dead draw of bolt or chain lightning under chalice could buy you the time needed to stabilize.

Jak
04-07-2007, 11:35 AM
So, torgar, Slay, and From Cairo, what are your guys lists?

torgar
04-07-2007, 12:58 PM
Assembling a kill takes exactly the same amount fo time with Angel that it does with Decree. Assuming you aren't morphing it on turn 3, which would be pretty foolish. Decree cycles for 4 on turn 7, Angel can be played morphed on turn 5 with chant backup and unmorphed the next turn. They kill in approximately the same time.

It can be played morphed turn 4 with chant backup, it can be attacking on turn 5. Decree gets you 4 soldiers attacking on turn 8. Additionally, every turn you connect with the angel it puts the game that much more out of reach. That is neither exactly nor approximately the same time as you both claim. Also, a smaller consideration, is that TES can wish for Earthquake or Pyroclasm to answer Soldiers whereas they have no answer to Angel.



TES is going to win or lose depending purely on your hate cards, I assure you.

My point is that it's really foolish to say that your matchup is winnable because of all the stalling cards and lifegain, it still doesn't answer the fundamental concern that their deck can still kill you way faster than you can kill them.

I agree! It is purely based on the hate cards. Stalling alone gets you nowhere. I play a large anti-combo hate package. Chant, Abeyance, G.Light all MD. This combined with the life gain does make a big difference however. It helps me stick around so I can kill them.. I can either disrupt them or I can put my life total out of reach for a single storm to kill me while I draw more disruption or assemble a kill. (This helps because yes, I kill slower than they can kill me) Dropping a Martyr in the first two turns instantly buys you alot more time so you can make it to that turn 8.




I give you that Martyr is a ridiculous bomb against Burn. Angel isn't. Of course Angel combined with Martyr is going to rock, because it includes a Martyr.

My point is that by the time you can land a flipped Angel, you'll already know whether or not you have won.


Pretty much, but Burn games can last longer than you'd expect if you gain some life and don't find a kill. Also, you can use Chant to force through a early flipped Angel turn4-5 if you get lucky and they're not holding any instants. It seems unlikely, but in builds running cards like Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Fireblast, Rift Bolt, Browbeat, Flamebreak it definitely happens. Flipped Angels draw out Fireblasts and a spell. It's not always GG when she hits, especially if they're holding back their burn.



How DO you win the Thresh matchup? You have so few must-counters that they can take their time.


Dragon mostly. The beauty of recurrable creatures is their invulnerability to counters. Sometimes I can sneak through an Angel. Sometimes I'll hardcast a couple Angels under Chant.



A Siege-Gang coming off a Vial with 8 mana open is 8 mana to the head if you have a STP and 16 if you have a Wrath. Also, how does Abeyance help you at all?


In response to a Vial activation (one set at 5, obv) you Abeyance. Then they cannot use SGC. You can avoid that half that damage in either case with StP/Wrath. If you don't have either, well then you're still kinda screwed, but at least you bought alittle time and a card.



I suggest you re-test your Threshold matchup against good players. It will become a lot worse than you expect.

I don't care about being pecked by a 1/1. I care about being pecked by a 3/3, and after you kill the 3/3, being pecked by another one. That's how Threshold is strong against you, by playing low amounts of big creatures and forcing you to go 1 for 1 on removal. Martyr doesn't stop that and only delays the inevitable. And because you have such low threat density, they can afford to wait.


Every point of damage is relevant. The more delaying and waiting I cause, then further I make it into the game, the more relevant my kills become, the more likely I win. Remember, Martyr is replacing the Renewed Faith slot. And it is better at doing what it does than Faith in this match. It sits there the first several turns and begs to be traded with un-Threshed creatures. It chumps blocks. It gains me a boatload of life.



It's fine to say your deck is better, and here are the reasons. But don't say your deck is better, and you would know that if you played it. That's just being an asshole.


I think I've been giving alot of reasons. I've played alot of games with Humility versions and with different configurations. You are the one assuming I play vs bad Thresh players. When I said that you need to try out my version, it was actually in response to:



@ Torgar
In fairness, I haven’t played much against Wombat



@From Cairo:


How is not running Chalice main make it more resilient versus Combo? A Chalice for 1 is huge versus Combo and Thresh, and coincidently pretty solid versus Burn.

In the case of Thresh, Chalice shuts off their draw engine at any point in the game, so unless you have already completely won/lost then its never going to be dead.

I run Chalice side. I don't know anyone who runs it main. You cannot abuse it like FS/Stax and its a decision between that or StP. And I like StP. My combo resiliency comes from MD Chant and faster kills.

Not playing Chalice against Thresh is an odd decision, I know. I just don't like it because it has no effect on the current board. Late game, if I'm at the brink of death, I want to rip my kill spells not Chalice.



Again its a must counter card against a deck that really isnt too threatened by most of your spells so trying to proactively cripple them is a stronger play then sitting back and watching them cantrip into the 3-4 counters it will take to answer the few must counter solutions Wombat offers.

I've casted Chalice for 1 around turn 20-25 before. It's resolved. Why? They had threats on the board and they're saving their counters for my removal. This exact situation is why I've developed an aversion to boarding in Chalice vs Thresh. When it comes to counters, honestly, I have very little problems working through their counters. I play around Daze when possible, bait my less useful spells first, and I pack 7 main deck ways to force through my spells.

@Jak:

My current list is on this page, scroll up.

Silverdragon
04-07-2007, 05:52 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Rabid Wombat that white deck that used a lot of Cycling cards to get the cards it really needed in every matchup and being able to play less lands than any other dedicated control deck?
Most of the lists I see today are just a bunch of narrow answer cards paired with powerful sweepers and mana.
Renewed Faith was in the original list because part of its ability was "draw a card". IBA replaced Swords in some builds with Bandage because it reads "draw a card". Abeyance over Orims Chant because well "draw a card" etc.
I can see how Martyr and Orims Chant virtually give you cards by having additional drawphases before you are dead and to be fair I can see how you can win some matches with these cardchoices but this is not traditional Wombat as I understand it.
Thoughts? Flames?

Jak
04-07-2007, 07:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Rabid Wombat that white deck that used a lot of Cycling cards to get the cards it really needed in every matchup and being able to play less lands than any other dedicated control deck?
Most of the lists I see today are just a bunch of narrow answer cards paired with powerful sweepers and mana.
Renewed Faith was in the original list because part of its ability was "draw a card". IBA replaced Swords in some builds with Bandage because it reads "draw a card". Abeyance over Orims Chant because well "draw a card" etc.
I can see how Martyr and Orims Chant virtually give you cards by having additional drawphases before you are dead and to be fair I can see how you can win some matches with these cardchoices but this is not traditional Wombat as I understand it.
Thoughts? Flames?

I agree. I think people are focusing on putting some really powerful white cards in the deck, but it hurts the deck because now it has no draw. Drawing cards is huge in this deck to keep finding answers. Anyway here is my build.

20 Plains

3 Eternal Dragon

4 Bandage
4 StP
4 Renewed Faith
4 Gilded Light
4 Abeyance
2 Disenchant
2 Rune of Protection: Red
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Decree of Justice
2 Akroma's Vengeance

SB
4 Orim's Chant
3 Jotun Grunt
4 True Believer
4 Glowrdier

Hasn't changed much because I have been testing Enchantress. Two questions though. Are any of you running heal instead of StP? And what plains do you guys use? I want some nice looking, non-foil ones, but just can't decide which ones, so I am asking for your help.

Slay
04-08-2007, 03:54 PM
It can be played morphed turn 4 with chant backup, it can be attacking on turn 5. Decree gets you 4 soldiers attacking on turn 8. Additionally, every turn you connect with the angel it puts the game that much more out of reach. That is neither exactly nor approximately the same time as you both claim. Also, a smaller consideration, is that TES can wish for Earthquake or Pyroclasm to answer Soldiers whereas they have no answer to Angel.

You're missing the point. The point is t hat combo would have to start with a ridiculously bad hand and fail to combo past your hate cards for you to win. The method of winning is irrelevent since it wins far slower than they win, even given hate cards.


I agree! It is purely based on the hate cards. Stalling alone gets you nowhere. I play a large anti-combo hate package. Chant, Abeyance, G.Light all MD. This combined with the life gain does make a big difference however. It helps me stick around so I can kill them.. I can either disrupt them or I can put my life total out of reach for a single storm to kill me while I draw more disruption or assemble a kill. (This helps because yes, I kill slower than they can kill me) Dropping a Martyr in the first two turns instantly buys you alot more time so you can make it to that turn 8.

The hate cards are what make the matchup, Angel and Martyr do nothing. Is my entire point.



Pretty much, but Burn games can last longer than you'd expect if you gain some life and don't find a kill. Also, you can use Chant to force through a early flipped Angel turn4-5 if you get lucky and they're not holding any instants. It seems unlikely, but in builds running cards like Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Fireblast, Rift Bolt, Browbeat, Flamebreak it definitely happens. Flipped Angels draw out Fireblasts and a spell. It's not always GG when she hits, especially if they're holding back their burn.

Assuming they're not holding any instants? That's absurd. You're justifying bad cards with strange what-if scenarios to say that they are better.


Dragon mostly. The beauty of recurrable creatures is their invulnerability to counters. Sometimes I can sneak through an Angel. Sometimes I'll hardcast a couple Angels under Chant.

Cool, I play Dragon too. And my build doesn't play bad cards that don't gain me card advantage or kill their critters like Martyr or Angel.


In response to a Vial activation (one set at 5, obv) you Abeyance. Then they cannot use SGC. You can avoid that half that damage in either case with StP/Wrath. If you don't have either, well then you're still kinda screwed, but at least you bought alittle time and a card.

Fair enough. That's still a lot of cards you have to have to neutralize SGC when they've already been throwing everything they've got at you for the first three/four turns until you can cast Moat. Unless you have a Martyr, which makes the combo of things you need to handle SGC now: Martyr, StP/Wrath, Abeyance, and Moat. That's quite a lot when you could just play Humility and control them with ROP and Wrath.


Every point of damage is relevant. The more delaying and waiting I cause, then further I make it into the game, the more relevant my kills become, the more likely I win. Remember, Martyr is replacing the Renewed Faith slot. And it is better at doing what it does than Faith in this match. It sits there the first several turns and begs to be traded with un-Threshed creatures. It chumps blocks. It gains me a boatload of life.

It's card disadvantage.

My current list is one I'm having a fair bit of success with:

// Lands
21 Plains

// Creatures
4 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 Wrath of God
4 Wing Shards
4 Decree of Justice
4 Abeyance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Rune of Protection: Red
3 Mind Stone
3 Humility
3 Condemn
3 Renewed Faith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Glowrider
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Phyrexian Furnace

It's very efficient in what it does, which is beating Goblins and aggro-control decks. The furnaces are not to be brought in vs. Threshold, but rather against Loam control and Survival decks. Those are much worse matchups for you than Threshold atm.

The three condemns might become a Moat and two Disenchants depending on how testing shows them to be.
-Slay

from Cairo
04-09-2007, 03:48 AM
So, torgar, Slay, and From Cairo, what are your guys lists?

In play testing I was running IBA's list from the first page.


And what plains do you guys use? I want some nice looking, non-foil ones, but just can't decide which ones, so I am asking for your help.

Personally I would run one of the following if playing this at a tourny and looking for "pimp" looking plains... the Japan APAC plains by Ron Spears 1997, Urza's Saga plains pick any of them by Rob Alexander, or the Mirage plains with the Zebras by Tom Wänerstrand.

xsockmonkeyx
04-09-2007, 06:08 AM
I want some nice looking, non-foil ones, but just can't decide which ones, so I am asking for your help.

The plains from Portal 2 with the little city is my personal fav. Snow=covered from Ice Age are pretty cool too.

Lego
04-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Snow=covered from Ice Age are pretty cool too.

If you're running nothing in your deck that benefits from snow-covered lands, I think it's technically smarter not to run them. As far as I can recall right now, there's nothing your opponent can play that would get worse if you had snow-covered lands, but there are plenty of things he could play that would become better.

Silverdragon
04-09-2007, 02:26 PM
If you're running nothing in your deck that benefits from snow-covered lands, I think it's technically smarter not to run them. As far as I can recall right now, there's nothing your opponent can play that would get worse if you had snow-covered lands, but there are plenty of things he could play that would become better.

Getting owned by random Icequake round 1 is the way to go ;)

Nightmare
04-09-2007, 02:32 PM
If you're running nothing in your deck that benefits from snow-covered lands, I think it's technically smarter not to run them. As far as I can recall right now, there's nothing your opponent can play that would get worse if you had snow-covered lands, but there are plenty of things he could play that would become better.Looking through Magiccards.info, the folowing cards are better when your opponent plays Snow Lands:

Arctic Foxes
Arcum's Sleigh
Avalanche
Barbarian Guides
Cold Snap
Freyalise's Radiance
Icequake
Old Fogey (Snowcovered PLAINSwalk)
Rimefeather Owl
Ronom Serpent
Snowblind
Thermokarst
Zombie Musher

Of that list, the following are relevant:
...

Oh. None of them are.

Slay
04-09-2007, 03:47 PM
The correct choice is to run half and half, because Predict FUCKS you.
-Slay

Jak
04-09-2007, 05:32 PM
What about the UK one from the EURO set. Seems alright. Here are the ones that I have thought of Invasion 331 and 333, Mirage (C) and (D), and Onslaught 331 and 332. Plus the EURO one. I would like to get 2 different ones and am leaning towards the Mirage one and get 10 of each. Thoughts?

torgar
04-10-2007, 01:55 AM
You're missing the point. The point is t hat combo would have to start with a ridiculously bad hand and fail to combo past your hate cards for you to win. The method of winning is irrelevent since it wins far slower than they win, even given hate cards. The hate cards are what make the matchup, Angel and Martyr do nothing. Is my entire point.


How does your build handle combo? You're 8 win conditions are still much slower than my 14. Angel is faster than Decree. If you can't see that, I can't help you. And believe it or not Martyr can be a win condition. Ever see someone plunge for a shitload of life then get finished off by a 1/1? I have, it's really amusing.
I also run alot more anti-combo cards than you. Both Gilded Lights and Orim's Chant main to start. I cannot conceive of how your combo MU is favorable, even post board.




Assuming they're not holding any instants? That's absurd. You're justifying bad cards with strange what-if scenarios to say that they are better.


I'll typically Chant/Abeyance-Upkeep burn players. What else do I use these cards for in this MU? It's not unlikely that this leads to a dead turn for them because they're playing cards like Flamebreak, Browbeat, Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, Fireblast, Lava Spike. These are cards you see in a Burn deck. Go to the Burn thread. Granted, I threw Rift Bolt in there, which is a bad card, but I still see it in some lists.



Fair enough. That's still a lot of cards you have to have to neutralize SGC when they've already been throwing everything they've got at you for the first three/four turns until you can cast Moat. Unless you have a Martyr, which makes the combo of things you need to handle SGC now: Martyr, StP/Wrath, Abeyance, and Moat. That's quite a lot when you could just play Humility and control them with ROP and Wrath.


To summarize your reasoning, we need a combination of the following:
I need: Martyr, StP/Wrath, Abeyance, Moat? 4 cards
You need: ROP, Stp/Wrath, Humility? 3 cards

The reason I need the fourth card (Martyr) is why?
Because I am taking a beating during the first three/four turns until I can cast my 4cc enchantment. After which attacking is moot by moat?

The reason you don't need.. umm whatever (that fourth card) is:
Because you are taking a beating during the first three/four turns until you can cast your 4cc enchantment. After which 1/1s continue to pound?

I fail to follow that line of reasoning. I also run ROP btw, and it's another answer which I can call up. I'd agree that there are strong reasons for either choice but that argument does not make sense. Humility answers SGC's ability but still needs an immediate answer to control the 1/1s left in its wake, Moat solves every problem BUT SGC's ability. If I dropped Angels, Martyrs and the Grunt, I'd definitely opt for Humility, but using those creatures has been advantegous for me in previously difficult MUs. Also, it helps me solve MWC's other worst enemy, going to time.

Overall, I think your build is tuned to be stronger against more aggro MUs, while mine has a better combo match-up.




I can see how Martyr and Orims Chant virtually give you cards by having additional drawphases before you are dead and to be fair I can see how you can win some matches with these cardchoices but this is not traditional Wombat as I understand it.
Thoughts? Flames?


My build of the deck is a different direction-- losing some of the cycling draw power for stronger card choices and a small tutor toolbox. I still run 15 cyclers. Slay's build runs 22. I don't know if it's really that distinguished enough to deserve its own thread so I'll keep posting here. I've just found that if you want to beat the faster combo decks, like TES, IGGY, Tide, which are prevalent here in the Northeast, you cannot expect to spent the first couple turns cycling for combo answers.

As far as my plains, I play with Mirrodin #289.
They are nice and shiny and pretty to look at. Shiny like metallic armor to mesmerize my opponents to a lull before my I smash them with Dragons.
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=48408#


For aggro white decks, I use Mirrodin #290.
Cause they're all spikey like I'm gonna kill ya.
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=48409#

Yeah, I've got alot of Mirrodin lands.

torgar
04-10-2007, 02:13 AM
Old Fogey (Snowcovered PLAINSwalk)


OMG. I was so shocked to hear something had snow-covered plainswalk I fearfully looked up the card. (Was someone gunning for Wombat players?) Wow. Lo and behold. All my favorite mechanics. Makes me want to put my nasty banding deck back together. Timber Wolves, Benalish Heroes, Icatian Infantry... ooh yeah.

Don't forget kids, that banding with Camel does prevent damage from animated Deserts in combat! Yeah, but seriously, I would never play Camel. Dire Wolves, however, are the shit. Anyone else outraged that Gatherer messed up their casting cost? It's like Wizards are trying to retroactively correct a such broken mechanic by making it cost 3G instead of 2G. And blue players complain about getting hosed....

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2554

Slay
04-10-2007, 07:53 AM
How does your build handle combo? You're 8 win conditions are still much slower than my 14. Angel is faster than Decree. If you can't see that, I can't help you. And believe it or not Martyr can be a win condition. Ever see someone plunge for a shitload of life then get finished off by a 1/1? I have, it's really amusing.
I also run alot more anti-combo cards than you. Both Gilded Lights and Orim's Chant main to start. I cannot conceive of how your combo MU is favorable, even post board.

It doesn't win against combo. I've given up trying to beat that matchup because 'combo' is too varied to really take a shot at it. I would tweak my deck to beat Solidarity, then TES will run it over. Then I'd build it to beat both, and Aluren would run it over. I'd much rather focus on the more played decks inthe format, which are Threshold and Goblins.


I'll typically Chant/Abeyance-Upkeep burn players. What else do I use these cards for in this MU? It's not unlikely that this leads to a dead turn for them because they're playing cards like Flamebreak, Browbeat, Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, Fireblast, Lava Spike. These are cards you see in a Burn deck. Go to the Burn thread. Granted, I threw Rift Bolt in there, which is a bad card, but I still see it in some lists.

It doesn't seem like too good of an idea to be basing your burn strategy around whether or not they play Rift Bolt and Ball Lightning.


To summarize your reasoning, we need a combination of the following:
I need: Martyr, StP/Wrath, Abeyance, Moat? 4 cards
You need: ROP, Stp/Wrath, Humility? 3 cards

The reason I need the fourth card (Martyr) is why?
Because I am taking a beating during the first three/four turns until I can cast my 4cc enchantment. After which attacking is moot by moat?

The reason you don't need.. umm whatever (that fourth card) is:
Because you are taking a beating during the first three/four turns until you can cast your 4cc enchantment. After which 1/1s continue to pound?

I fail to follow that line of reasoning. I also run ROP btw, and it's another answer which I can call up. I'd agree that there are strong reasons for either choice but that argument does not make sense. Humility answers SGC's ability but still needs an immediate answer to control the 1/1s left in its wake, Moat solves every problem BUT SGC's ability. If I dropped Angels, Martyrs and the Grunt, I'd definitely opt for Humility, but using those creatures has been advantegous for me in previously difficult MUs. Also, it helps me solve MWC's other worst enemy, going to time.

No, I only need two cards, Humility, and a Wrath effect or a Decree or a ROP.


Overall, I think your build is tuned to be stronger against more aggro MUs, while mine has a better combo match-up.

Which are you going to see more of at the GP?

torgar
04-10-2007, 02:23 PM
Well, this is my build for the more combo-heavy meta in my area. It is not necessarily the deck I am planning on taking to the GP nor do I think that there will be an absence of combo at the GP. It would be a mistake to assume that you are just going to go through the day without playing it. I actually think combo will make a much more decent showing then you expect, especially not enough for you to do dismiss is as a non-concern.

And btw, I'd argue Ball Lightning is good card for a Burn, especially from the side after decks side out spot removal, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Anyway, if you're taking a deck to the GP that autoloses to a strong and viable deck-archetype, I'd suggest reconsidering.

Jak
04-10-2007, 02:53 PM
I never liked the mirrodin lands. The art was nice, I just don't like the newer borders. I am probably going to get 2 sets of ten on the mirage.

Slay
04-10-2007, 05:05 PM
Anyway, if you're taking a deck to the GP that autoloses to a strong and viable deck-archetype, I'd suggest reconsidering.

Your build autoloses to Survival, you know. I'd much rather autolose to combo and have a strong Survival and other aggro-control matchup than have a mediocre but winnable combo matchup and a mediocre aggro-control matchup.
-Slay

torgar
04-11-2007, 06:17 PM
I'd much rather have a build that is more suited to my local metagame. And mine is completely absent of Survival and rife with speedy combo, burn and straight aggro. So what it really comes down to is a preference that depends on your metagame.

No doubt, as I've already said, Survival is my most difficult MU. Its pretty much the sole reason why I keep the single Humility in the board. That and I've also replaced a Furnace with a Crypt in the side since it's much more effective against Thresh/Survival where the graveyard fills too fast for a single Furnace to keep up.

Which brings me to an interesting discussion question. I've always preferred Claws/Furnace since it sticks around and draws you a card, but in what MU would we want Furnace over Crypts and vice versa? Since I'm sure we'd all agree Furnace isn't even worth boarding versus Thresh. I'd prefer Furnace over Crypt against Reanimator decks cause it sticks around and can sit and threaten to respond to a given reanimate spell. What other MUs? The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that the second ability which can rip out a Squee under Confinement, unlike Crypt.

Slay
04-11-2007, 08:03 PM
I'd much rather have a build that is more suited to my local metagame. And mine is completely absent of Survival and rife with speedy combo, burn and straight aggro. So what it really comes down to is a preference that depends on your metagame.

Why are you playing Rabid Wombat in a metagame that is full of combo? Wombat isn't designed to beat combo, it's purely a metagame deck.


No doubt, as I've already said, Survival is my most difficult MU. Its pretty much the sole reason why I keep the single Humility in the board. That and I've also replaced a Furnace with a Crypt in the side since it's much more effective against Thresh/Survival where the graveyard fills too fast for a single Furnace to keep up.

Which brings me to an interesting discussion question. I've always preferred Claws/Furnace since it sticks around and draws you a card, but in what MU would we want Furnace over Crypts and vice versa? Since I'm sure we'd all agree Furnace isn't even worth boarding versus Thresh. I'd prefer Furnace over Crypt against Reanimator decks cause it sticks around and can sit and threaten to respond to a given reanimate spell. What other MUs? The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that the second ability which can rip out a Squee under Confinement, unlike Crypt.

Well, I don't like any graveyard hate against Threshold because you don't care how big their critters are, you care that they're even alive. Graveyard hate is kind of irrelevent against Threshold if you're a control deck, as htey'll just build it up again.

Furnace is more effective against Loam.dec, and Survival.dec. Those are the two real choices in me choosing Furnace. It's also a psyche-out, it forces the opponent to try and either outrace the Furnace by playing stuff underneath their recursion cards, or not play anything at all and save it all up. And it draws a card. This alone makes it almost boardable against Threshold, and at the very least it can be sideboarded in for ROP Red against white threshold.

Crypt is a bomb against Loam in the lategame, and Threshold in the lategame, and Tog in the lategame. Against decks with recursion, it sits on the board fucking up thier mind. It's much better against combo decks, as it absolutely wrecks Ill Gotten Gains and sometimes Flash of Insight. However, it doesn't draw cards, and that sucks. But landing a Crypt off an Abeyance is pretty world-shattering when the other guy has thirty-something cards in his graveyard.

I think the case can be made for a singleton Crypt, but any more than that and you're compromising your sideboard too much.
-Slay

bigbear102
04-12-2007, 12:19 AM
I think that Furnace is almost always the right call in Wombat. Against thresh you aren't gonna do anything revevant except kill their creatures no matter how big they are, and against everything else it is usually only 1-2 cards you care about anyway. By using Furnace you get a card out of the deal, whereas with Crypt you may take their whole yard, but in what matchups do you really need to take their whole yard? Tog and Thresh are the only ones played, and Tog isn't even played much. Wingshards are the most important cards in those matchups. And Furnace is strictly better than Claws, no reason to run Claws unless you wanna run more than 4, or are really scard of Needle.

BTW: Rift Bolt is amazing in Burn, it's 3-1. Ball Lightning is bad in burn, it's 6-3. And if you're worried about Rift Bolt taking a turn to deal it's damage you had better not advocate Browbeat!

Xero
05-02-2007, 02:36 PM
Like alot of people, I am annoyed at the Hulk Flash combo that is likely to imipact the GP meta in a big way. However, I think a modified version of this deck can have a fighting chance against it, while still having a good match vs. Aggro.

19x Plains
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Wing Shards
3x Festival of the Guildpact
3x Bandage
2x Eternal Dragon
4x Abeyance
2x Guilded Light
2x ROP: Red
2x Decree of Justice
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Razor Golem
3x Wrath of God
4x Renewed Faith
2x Orim's Chant

SB:
2x Orim's Chant
4x Chalice of the Void
4x True Believer
2x Guilded Light
2x Humility
1x Razor Golem

After sideboarding, you have 4x Chant, 4x Abeyance, 4x True Believer, 4x Chalice, 4x Guilded Light, 4x Renewed Faith, and 2x Humility to fight against Hulk Flash. So far, it seems like enough.

Lego
05-02-2007, 05:23 PM
After sideboarding, you have 4x Chant, 4x Abeyance, 4x True Believer, 4x Chalice, 4x Guilded Light, 4x Renewed Faith, and 2x Humility to fight against Hulk Flash. So far, it seems like enough.

Disciple Version hate:
True Believer (dies to Massacre)
Renewed Faith (you need to cast two to get out of Disciple range)
Guilded Light- this is your best hate. It has to be played in response to the Protean Hulk trigger, and essentially forces them to find another Flash + Hulk.

Non-Disciple Version Hate:
Chant, Abeyance- Both 2CC, and when played in response to Flash, they force your opponent to find another Flash or just wait another turn.

Hate for both:
Chalice and Humility- both cost 4, and are therefore nearly useless.

realmlord
05-02-2007, 05:32 PM
Lego_Army_Man - How does responding to Flash with Chant or Abeyance do any good? Flash still resolves...Hulk still does its thing. They still can win.

Edit - I just realized that you said this for the NON-Disciple Version. Sorry about that. Yes, Chant kicked and Abeyance make the "win" part of the combo wait.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-03-2007, 04:18 AM
Actually, this might make Wombat a lot better in the metagame. Flash-Hulk is broken, but it pins down the type of hate you need, and it gives you a clear metagame bulls' eye to hate against.

Here's a potential list:

Mana:
18 Plains- Dodging Wastelands and the suddenly super-prevalent Stifles.

Bandages:

4 Renewed Faith- Potentially good against Disciple wins, if you can push out of their reach. Also good against random aggro.
4 Bandage- Random anti-aggro, cheap cycler, helps against Goblins.
2 Heal- See above.
4 Festival of the Guildpact- Fog + cantrip.

Removal/Creature Hate:

3 Humility- Breaks decks with a few hyper-efficent kill conditions (see: aggro control) and both versions of Flash-Hulk if it resolves.
2 Akroma's Vengeance- Random board clearer that cycles.
4 Swords to Plowshares- Good against aggro + the Kiki kill. Possibly with added Sunlances?

Stall/Combo Breakers:
4 Gilded Light- Beats Disciple version. Also cycles.
4 Abeyance- Beats Kiki version. Also cycles.
4 Orim's Chant- With kicker, beats the Kiki version. Doesn't cycle. Frown. Also forces through Humilities.
4 Scent of Jasmine- With six white cards in hand, will usually beat the Disciple version. Doesn't cycle. Frown.

Kill Condition:
3 Decree of Justice- I suppose you have to win eventually. Technically.


You probably want to choose to draw first, as I can't think of any deck it hurts you against, and it makes Scent a good bit better.

Nihil Credo
05-03-2007, 11:17 AM
I'm wondering what is the better lifegainer for a mono-W deck:

Martyr "costs" two mana, but it is practically guaranteed to get you out of a Disciple kill. It gets hit by Stifle, which is going to be rampant at the GP, but probably not in the hands of Hulk Flash players. Also being a creature, although a 1/1, helps quite a bit.

Scent of Jasmine can be cast turn 1, but unless you have frickin' FIVE cards in hand (or another lifegained turn 2... and the turn 2 to play it), it won't save you from the Disciple kill. And if they run 8 robots instead of 7, or if they have a Petal to sac after the combo, it won't save you regardless.

Children of Korlis costs 1 and saves you from the Disciple kill no matter what, but it is very bad against any non-Tendrils non-Disciple deck, and can be handled by Hulk Flash's maindeck bounce spell.

Might it be time to consider Moxes in this deck?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-03-2007, 05:25 PM
If you're on the draw, expecting five white cards in hand is perfectly reasonable.

Xero
05-03-2007, 05:30 PM
The idea of having to consider fucking Scent of Jasmine makes me :cry: Look what you've done, Hulk Flash.

Are these any good?

Blessed Reversal against the Kiki-Jiki version?
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=13153

Humble?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Humble doesn't do anything. The triggers will already be on the stack. Blessed Reversal just seems worse than Holy Day.

technogeek5000
05-15-2007, 12:09 PM
Has anyone tryed judge unworthy in this deck. It gives it better topdecks and is great creature removal here because of all the high casting costed cards.

Jak
05-15-2007, 08:56 PM
It would probably be alright, but this deck is pretty dead with flash.

technogeek5000
05-16-2007, 06:33 AM
well yes that is known. but hulk flash wont be around forever... and jugde unworthy is good against a large portion of the field because now there is a alot of U/x/x aggro control around.

Jak
05-16-2007, 11:09 PM
Yeah I know. I think it is a good card, but I would rather play Heal. The way I would want to play the deck is to play stuff like heal and bandage to draw into your sweepers, thus gaining CA. They also add storm to Shards. The manipulation would help the deck, but what would it help? I mean I have yet to lose to Gobs with my build in matches (probably lost a few games) and aggro-control is just as easy. The problematic MU is combo and the manipulation would not matter when you draw it third turn. I think it would just be better to run the 8 Bandages.

Wobbles The Goose
05-17-2007, 02:57 PM
4 Scent of Jasmine- With six white cards in hand, will usually beat the Disciple version. Doesn't cycle. Frown.


Samurai of the Pale Curtain just seems like a better card in most matchups, right? It doesn't cycle, but it wins in combat and forces a bounce spell against all the builds of Hulk. Also, post board, you can always Chant/abeyance in responce to massacre so that you can just drop one dork at a time and force. Also, it can't be duressed.

Jak
05-30-2007, 08:58 PM
Since flash is most likely getting banned, I want to start playing this deck again. Anyone test out Seht's Tiger? Uncounterable beater plus stops Tedrils and Brainfreeze. I would probably play it over Jotun Grunt if found to be good.

C.P.
05-30-2007, 09:35 PM
Since flash is most likely getting banned, I want to start playing this deck again. Anyone test out Seht's Tiger? Uncounterable beater plus stops Tedrils and Brainfreeze. I would probably play it over Jotun Grunt if found to be good.

It's four mana, though. How relevant is it against tendrils?

Jak
05-30-2007, 10:13 PM
Yes, but if you look at the list I posted, I run 12 counters and 8 disruption creatures post-board. I am easily able to slow them down untill I can reach four mana. I just think it is a good option for once they use all of their resources. Thoughts?

spiritmage788
05-31-2007, 09:16 AM
Since flash is most likely getting banned, I want to start playing this deck again. Anyone test out Seht's Tiger? Uncounterable beater plus stops Tedrils and Brainfreeze. I would probably play it over Jotun Grunt if found to be good.

What about Seht's Tiger is uncounterable? Sure, you can play it at the end of your opponent's turn, or in response to an effect that targets you, but it's not like it has split second or anything. Still, probably worth testing, since it can also protect you from an aggro deck for one turn and even trade with another creature.

Xero
05-31-2007, 05:34 PM
Gilded Light seems alot better than Tiger to me.

Jak
05-31-2007, 07:46 PM
OMG lmao. My bad. I thought I heard somewhere it had split-second. My bad. Anyways, I still think it deserves a look. Plus Xero I was talking about putting it in the SB. I already have Gilded Light MD.

spiritmage788
05-31-2007, 09:55 PM
Heh. No worries. Still worth testing, because it can stop a combo deck from killing you (if you can stall it long enough) and it can also stop aggro from killing you for a turn, plus give you a 3/3.

Jak
06-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Does anybody plan to pick this deck up? I think it has potential because this deck can be combo (not solidarity combo). Smashes goblins, smashes threshold, and beats combo post board. It can handle EtW with Orim's Chant and then Wrath away. So is anybody playing this?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-21-2007, 04:17 PM
I've been working on a new build of MWC, but it's substantially different enough that I'm going to make a new thread for it. I'll post it up when I get some more thorough matchup results.

Jak
06-21-2007, 04:22 PM
Very nice. I am interested to see it. Do you know when?

Silthyn
06-27-2007, 05:45 PM
I'm planning on picking up either Rabid Wombat or RW Rifter. Which of them would be most competitive in a meta with a good amount of aggro (Gobbos, Suicide Black), a little combo (Mizzium Vault), and some Mono U Controldecks (still cant believe that deck won that tournament).

Jak
06-27-2007, 05:57 PM
Wombat is much better than rift IMO.

Silthyn
06-27-2007, 06:09 PM
Wombat is much better than rift IMO.

Can you explain why? :wink:

Jak
06-27-2007, 06:23 PM
Sure.

I really don't know if anyone plays rift anymore, so I only know the older lists. The problems were that it was reliant on having Humility in play or the deck would be full of dead cards (i.e. Slice and Dice and Spark Spray), plus you don't need to run crappy cards just because they cycle (i.e. Cycle Lands and Spark Spray). MWC also runs a ton more of combo hate MD and SB. It is just a lot more consistent. This is just from my testing I have done with both decks. MWC and Rifter both smash Goblins, but MWC has a better combo MU and its mana base is much better.

Silthyn
06-28-2007, 04:26 AM
Sure.

I really don't know if anyone plays rift anymore, so I only know the older lists. The problems were that it was reliant on having Humility in play or the deck would be full of dead cards (i.e. Slice and Dice and Spark Spray), plus you don't need to run crappy cards just because they cycle (i.e. Cycle Lands and Spark Spray). MWC also runs a ton more of combo hate MD and SB. It is just a lot more consistent. This is just from my testing I have done with both decks. MWC and Rifter both smash Goblins, but MWC has a better combo MU and its mana base is much better.

Ah, I see. One question about MWC - Is it worth it to run Martyr of Sands instead of Renewed Faith? Its a guy that blocks a Lackey and gains ~12 life if you're on the play.

Blaukreuz
07-15-2007, 09:22 AM
what would you play in an meta full of aggro and aggrocontrol in the sideboard?

Until now i have 4x Razor Golems and 4x Jötun Grunts in my Sideboard.

Jak
07-15-2007, 01:56 PM
That is actually enough for the aggro control MU because the deck usually should beat aggro control. Those creatures are the best choices. Orim's Chant in the SB would help also.

@ Silthyn
Sands is actually a good card. I do not run it because I felt it to be win more most of the time. But it is still worth running if you like it a lot.

bigbear102
07-15-2007, 02:51 PM
Angel is really the only creature you need/want in the board. Grunt isn't bad, but I think Razor Golem is a waste of space in the board. You have plenty of removal/prevention to get you past almost any aggro deck. Grunt will help out with aggro control.

You don't want to waste space in the board on your already good matchups. I would gear my board towards combo, considering the MD should beat most aggro strategies anyway. Even in a meta without much combo you want to be able to do something.

Elfrago
07-15-2007, 03:45 PM
What sould I play in the sideboard for a meta full of UW-Landstill?

MattH
07-15-2007, 03:50 PM
What sould I play in the sideboard for a meta full of UW-Landstill?

Decree of Justice is pretty good there. Also Eternal Dragon. If you don't have all four of each main, put the remainder in the SB.

Or use snow covered plains and that snow land that draws snow cards. That would be good if Landstill all are dropping Wasteland. Or Urza's Factory.

Just think: slow, grinding, uncounterable card advantage. That's how it's done.

Tao
07-15-2007, 04:47 PM
Against UW-Landstill: Phyrexian Furnace (Manland recursion, Dragons), Abeyance, additional Dragons or Decrees like Matth said. Or maybe just IBAs Irish Wombat.

this:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61880&postcount=369

with 3 Krosan Grip instead of Seed Spark. UW cannot beat this.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-15-2007, 11:27 PM
what would you play in an meta full of aggro and aggrocontrol in the sideboard?

Until now i have 4x Razor Golems and 4x Jötun Grunts in my Sideboard.

Honestly, you should probably just play the Mighty Quinn. You have more cards that actually do things, and dropping Humility for Moat, where the former doesn't hit factory and the latter does, seems like a good move. I'm not sure if there's a reason to play Wombat over Quinn anymore. Coldsnap, I guess?

Jak
10-01-2007, 03:00 PM
Necro!

So I have been working with this deck a lot and feel this deck would be great in the meta. It has a strong Thresh MU, kills goblins, but weak combo. So I have been experimenting with a black splash that I like to call Dark Wombat. Now I think the MD is really good, but a splash for the SB would be beneficial.

Dark Wombat
Lands
4 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
10 Plains

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bandage
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
2 Disenchant
2 RoP: Red
4 Renewed Faith
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Decree of Justice
2 ?

SB
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Planar Void / Leyline of the Void
3 Duress / Beater

I haven't tested it at all, just throwing around a list. Any Ideas?

sammiel
10-01-2007, 04:17 PM
so is the black only for SB options?

I just don't think bandage is the kind of card you are looking in today's meta, 1 life plus a cantrip is pretty terrible. Unless the northwest metagame has alot of burn and goblins, I would cut them.

I would consider replacing it with gilded light/dawn charm for more protection against combo/discard, or having some MD use for that black mana.

Also, isn't this deck kind of glacially slow? I think the reason mono-w control has never come back is because it runs too many answers and not enough threats.

Jak
10-01-2007, 04:32 PM
I have always found bandage to be a great card. It may have weak effects, but being able to up storm, stop lackey, and draw, is a good card. I feel the black splash should not be overly used and distort the deck. I already do great against aggro-control and aggro. I want to focus on those MUs. The deck is slow like most control decks, but it is not that much slower than Landstill. That is still heavily played.

What I wanted to get out of the black splash is more efficient beaters (Negator) and GY hate (Voids). With the 8 "counters" main and the creatures coming in for a faster clock post board, you have a good shot against storm combo outside of solidarity.

bigbear102
10-01-2007, 11:26 PM
Cut the creatures out of the board, they aren't what this deck needs. Grunt isn't bad cuz he serves double duty, but Negator is just bad with this deck.

You are also not playing Humility, which beats the format right now, especially considering combo now relies on creatures...

I am testing 2 MD Echoes with the black splash. It really helps the long games get shorter.

Bandage goes very will with Echoes, getting a 2for1 cuz it replaces itself.

diffy
10-02-2007, 09:29 AM
Any Ideas?


First of all, I'd drop those RoP:Reds and replace them with RoP:Greens. Goblins just isn't the metagame force it was anymore and being able to stop a Goyf, Mystic Enforcer, Werebear and the like for a mere White mana is quite good I guess.

-2 RoP: Red
+2 RoP: Green

Also, you really want Humilities which are just a complete beating against everything right now. I'd fill the 2 open slots you have and replace one of the disenchants (that doesn't really have that good targets anymore) to add in 3 Humilities.

-1 Disenchant
-2 Open Slots
+3 Humilities

Also, I'd drop the Renewed Faiths for Heal which is just plain and simply better because it adds more storm (the 1 life shouldn't be an issue).

-4 Renewed Faith
+4 Heal (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/254.html)

Then you could also replace the quite narrow Orims Chant with the more versatile Eningeered Explosives (stops Emty tokkens for good).

-1 Disenchant
-1 Orims Chant
+2 Engineered Explosives

The sideboard could then look something like this:

1 Engineered Explosives (Empty the Warrens, *****, Slivers etc)
3 Jotun Grunt (Combo, Ichorid)
2 Tormods Crypt (Ichorid, Iggy Pop)
1 Orims Chant (Combo)
4 Duress (Combo, Control [replacing Chant])
4 Thoughtseize (Combo)

You could also replace the Jotun Grunts with Grinning Demon (http://magiccards.info/on/en/153.html)s or Juzam Djin (http://magiccards.info/an/en/9.html)s or Plague Sliver (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/124.html)s but I just like the double duty Grunt fills.

Now with this Sideboard you really want to have a black mana source on the first turn so I'd drop a plains or two for a Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html) which probably is better than another Fetchie because of Stifle.

-1 Plains
+1 Godless Shrine



I am testing 2 MD Echoes with the black splash. It really helps the long games get shorter.


That definetely looks interesting. The question is what to cut. As it is a wincondition, you really want to cut winconditions but you can't really cut Eternal Dragon because you run quite a small amount of lands (20) and Decree of Justice is just plain uncounterable removal which is always nice.
As this is an extreme lategame card you don't really want to play more than one so I'd probably cut one of the lesser cantrips for it.

-1 Heal
+1 Haunting Echoes (http://magiccards.info/od/en/142.html)

Taking all this into consideration, this is what I'd start testing:



Mainboard (60 cards)

3 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
3 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
9 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/4.html)
1 Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/al/en/289.html)

3 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
3 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)
1 Haunting Echoes (http://magiccards.info/od/en/142.html)

4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
4 Wing Shards (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/25.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
4 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)
2 Rune of Protection: Green (http://magiccards.info/us/en/38.html)
3 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)

4 Bandage (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/101.html)
4 Heal (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/254.html)
4 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html)
2 Orim's Chant (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/11.html)

Sideboard (15 cards)

4 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)
2 Orim's Chant (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/11.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)
2 Jotun Grunt (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/8.html)





Story Circle would not be finally better than runes? And even against Threshold it looks better as 2CC is bad these last days.


I don't really know but the ability to cycle away the runes if you don't need them and the lower converted mana cost should be better than dodging Counterbalance (which even isn't played in every built allthough that is a mistake in my opinion).



I would play Moat over Humility.


I prefer Humility. It doesn stop your main wincondition (Decree of Justice), is more efficient at stopping the creatures (Goblins can still ping via Siege-Gang Comander, ******** can still attack with Mystic Enforcer) / suporting your gameplan (overextending into Wrath of God) and stops all those nasty creature Tricks (Enchantress, Survival, Breakfast).

Maveric78f
10-02-2007, 10:04 AM
story circle would not be finally better than runes ? And even against Threshold it looks better as 2CC is bad these last days.

I would play Moat over Humility.

bigbear102
10-02-2007, 12:40 PM
Why play runes at all anymore? It was good against goblins because it would make them overextend into wrath/vengeance. Green decks don't overextend. Removal is just better against green. Gro doesn't play too many threats, so once you get rid of them they are gone, and Survival can come back from wrath effects quickly, and can kill runes.

This is the list I have been running, it has been doing alright in testing.

// Lands
19 [R] Plains (3)
3 [A] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [SH] Bandage
2 [PY] Abolish
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [10E] Wrath of God
4 [SC] Wing Shards
2 [FUT] Intervention Pact
4 [OV] Abeyance
3 [TE] Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [10E] Condemn


The Intervention Pact is being tested, and seems to be doing alright. It lets you absorb 2 Goyf hits without losing any life, and adds to Wing Shards for free. It also stops Ghoul for a turn, which should be good for this deck.

Abolish is amazing in here. Against storm combo you hit their LED before they wanna use it, and then have Abeyance to own them later. It's also free so people don't ever expect it.

I don't like Heal over Renewed Faith just because it draws you the card later. Sometimes I need answers now and can't wait.

I do want Vengeance back in the list, but Echoes is just better.

Jak
10-02-2007, 07:12 PM
I have been liking creatures against combo. Giving me the ability to disrupt and win fast. I will test though.

The RoP will and should be red. I am not sure if it is needed much anymore, but goblins is still out there. Not sure how many in my meta, so it does need to be tested. I love Abolish and completely forgot that it existed. Been using Disenchants in the deck for so long.

I really like the list, so here is a list I am going to test with some of your choices.

Lands-20
4 Scrubland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
12 Plains

Win-6
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice

Combo Hate-10
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
2 Extirpate

Creature Hate-14
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
2 Humility

Other Goodies-10
4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
2 Abolish

SB
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Extirpate
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Duress

I want to test Intervention Pact because it looks useful and its uses are great. I am testing Extirpate in place of RoP. Depends on how much red though. I would love to add the 3rd Humility, but it costs 4 and 1 Extirpate seems bad. Will test though. Thoughts on the board. Basically after boarding against combo, I have 8 "counters", 4 Discarders, 6 GY hate spells, and 7 Beaters to get the job done faster. I will try out the man plan some more. Thoughts?

bigbear102
10-02-2007, 11:03 PM
4 Chant main seems to be like overkill. It's really only good against combo, Abeyance is usually enough to get around counters and such. I would drop it down for the 3rd Humility, possibly maybe even the Pacts. I like Chant in the board personally.

Jak
10-02-2007, 11:49 PM
Well my meta has a ton of counters, like thresh and slivers, so I find them really useful. They also help against combo. I can see dropping one for another humility.

Jak
10-07-2007, 12:42 AM
What would be a good mono white list? I don't plan on buying scrublands for a while and have been having trouble coming up with an okay list and debating a lot of slots. Here is my list right now.

Lands-20
20 Plains

Win-6
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice

Combo Hate-8
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance

Creature Hate-15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility

Other Goodies-11
4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
3 Abolish

SB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rule of Law
???

I need help with the SB, obviously. Any thoughts? Man plan?

cheddercaveman
10-08-2007, 09:53 AM
I would add in maybe 2 Akroma's Vengeance. It cycles and wrath's. Also, in the mainboard gilded light might be better than Chant since it can cycle too. The Abolish's probably should just be disenchant, and I don't think 3 mainboard of either abolish or disenchant is necessary.

Puzzle
10-08-2007, 10:51 AM
Humility and Moat may be beatings today but with only 20 lands and no other mana sources, when do you plan to play them ?

I would advocate running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors to begin with. That means no Wings Shard but Wrath comes at the same time with these lands, so it's not a big deal.
That also makes Rule of Law quicker to reach against combo.
Of course, from there, I'd feel the temptation of drifting towards Stax but that's not a necessity either.

I also think Bandage doesn't do much (I don't think it ever has so much) and I'd much rather dedicate more slots to make sure to hit the 4-mana enchantments and their mana.

dude 666
10-08-2007, 11:14 AM
I would add in maybe 2 Akroma's Vengeance. It cycles and wrath's. Also, in the mainboard gilded light might be better than Chant since it can cycle too. The Abolish's probably should just be disenchant, and I don't think 3 mainboard of either abolish or disenchant is necessary.

I agree with cheddarcaveman here. Akroma's Vengeance is much more versatile in this deck, and against decks where you need disenchant-like effects, Vengeance does the job much better.

Also, Chants should be in the board, as they will be dead in many matchups and we want to reduce the number of dead cards. If you need anti-combo tech, Gilded Light works just as well (even counters abeyance!), plus, it cycles.


Humility and Moat may be beatings today but with only 20 lands and no other mana sources, when do you plan to play them ?

I would advocate running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors to begin with. That means no Wings Shard but Wrath comes at the same time with these lands, so it's not a big deal.
That also makes Rule of Law quicker to reach against combo.
Of course, from there, I'd feel the temptation of drifting towards Stax but that's not a necessity either.

I also think Bandage doesn't do much (I don't think it ever has so much) and I'd much rather dedicate more slots to make sure to hit the 4-mana enchantments and their mana.

I agree with the first part of your post, Puzzle, which is why I run 4 Mind Stone in my Wombat. Mind Stone is great because it helps get that turn 3 Humility or WoG, turns on the Dragon engine faster, makes more soldiers, and it also cantrips; all in one card!

I am opposed to :2: lands in this deck, as they only weaken the manabase. They make the deck vulnerable to wasteland, provide unnecesary damage, (or even worse, losing a land), and don't provide white mana. Wombat can't properly abuse their speed like Stax, because Wombat is a very slow deck, so it can wait another turn to drop a plains.

As to your last point, I dropped Bandage a long time ago, because it was mainly an answer to turn 1 Lackey, which is not what this deck is about, not to mention the decline of goblins from the metagame.

bigbear102
10-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Abolish is in the deck over disenchant because it messes with storm combo. Even when they go off turn 1, if they play LED you can possibly destroy it when they can't sac it. 1 more mana isn't that bad for wombat anyway, as there aren't any huge artifacts or enchantments that wombat needs to get rid of before turn 3 anyway.

As for the mana base, I run 21-22 land, and it is fine. You have a million cyclers, plus dragon. I almost always have the 4 mana I need by turn 4. Dropping Bandage actually reduces your chances of hitting 4 mana, and reduces the chances of Wing Shards being amazing. 1 mana for 1 card and 1 storm is good in this deck.

I never really liked Mindstone, but it isn't bad. I absolutely disagree with Tomb or City though, the mono W version is immune to wastes, and any version cannot handle life loss.

ykpon
10-12-2007, 10:54 AM
hi, its my first post here so im sorry if smtng is wrong or my english is too bad.

i want to try monow wombat in our legacy championship in about a month. i think meta will consist of ********, goblins, aggroloam, survival based decks, uw/uwb fishes and random aggrodecks. i dont expect a lot of combo decks and landstills there so mb wombat can be a good choise.

i tested my deck in mws and was confronted with problems against decks like loam and smtng like loam w/o life engine but with top and a lot of shuffle effects. i think there will be some such decks in that tornament so i need ur help. often i can deal with all their threats (only a scarab is a problem for me but abeyance can help to kill him and usually they have only one). but they can deal with all my threats especially if they use white (play stp/extirpate targeting dragon, sac deed/play damnation to kill tokens). and i have 8 winconditions, i see some of u have only 6-7 of them. so we play our creatures to be killed next turn but my deck is thinner and thinner each turn... i even thought to cut smtng to add 1 white beacon. can u give me a better advise?

also i realized that 4c still and all combodecks (esp solidarity) are bad mu`s for me. mb i can have a better sb for these decks if i would suddenly meet them?

here`s my current list im testing now with my small comments:

3 [ON] Secluded Steppe
9 [CHK] Plains
9 [IA] Snow-Covered Plain - i`m satisfied with 18+3 lands but someimes any ld like vindicate in early game can hurt me.
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon
4 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace - to deal with squee and genesis vs survival decks and to make a lot of mu`s easier (********, loam, landstill etc.)
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [10E] Bandage
4 [SC] Gilded Light - i think this card is very good for this deck cuz it helps against everything we dont like - tendrils (and freeze in theory), discard and also burn.
4 [WL] Abeyance
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [TE] Humility - good card for my meta, the only way to deal with rgsa, helps vs goblins and a lot of other decks.
4 [SC] Decree of Justice

SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 4 [ON] True Believer - 12 answers for combodecks. chalise and sphere are great, but we need a clock.
SB: 3 [TSP] Return to Dust - i think its better than disenchant/abolish cuz it can destroy for example 2 survivals and also it removes artifact from the game, its great vs mishra`s factories.

1) i dont use runes because i dont think burn would be very popular and anyway burn seems good matchup. and i dont think rune is great vs goblins, im satisfied with bandages/stp/shards/humility against them.
2) wrath of god/rout. yes, i dont use it. i think i have quite enough removal vs aggrodecks and dont want to have 1 more dead card in bad matchups. it doesnt cantrip so i think akroma's vengeance is much better. i dont have it now(because i needed it very rarely) but i think i can change my opinion and would use 2 md. but what to cut and do i really need to cut smtng for such card?
3) i see some of u use chants and/or disenchants in main deck but i dont think i need these cards md in my meta.
_____________________________
ykpon

Jak
10-12-2007, 12:15 PM
I would definitely cut furnaces. They are just too slow and different GY hate would be better. I also think you need wrath. What is it dead against? Combo now relies mostly on creatures and it is amazing in the MUs you want to beat, like Survival, gobbos, and even thresh and fish type decks. Resolving it is a big advantage. I would also cut the cycle lands. i used to run them, but get mana screwed a ton. You never want it to be one of your 2 lands. I also don't think Scarab should be a problem. Just save one of your Swords to Plowshares and remove it from the game. In the board I would try to add Tormod's Crypt. Hope this helps.

dude 666
10-12-2007, 11:58 PM
First off, I cut the bandages from my list, and I think you should do the same. This deck does not need a reach through mists, all the other cyclers actually serve some kind of function or create virtual card advantage.

You should definetely run Wrath, it is a huge bomb against any aggro or aggro/control decks. The only matchup it is bad against is landstill and perhaps storm combo (if TES comboes out with Warrens, WoG can be useful).

Phyrexian furnace is definately good in here, especially against loam decks, because if you drop it early, it eats up their whole yard, and it can be used to get rid of that loam to slow them down. Crypt has no place here, unless you have many g-yard based combo decks in your meta, namely Breakfast and Ichi. It also works against Scarab.

I agree with Jak on the cycle lands. I used to run them, but found them to be too great of a liability. Just stick to the basics.

ykpon
10-13-2007, 04:42 AM
I would definitely cut furnaces. They are just too slow and different GY hate would be better.
but unlike other gy hate we can just sac furnace to draw a card. also it helps vs one of the most popular decks - ******** (for ex. sometimes i removed cards from my gy to stop tarmo if i didnt have removal). and its second ability can remove loam, genesis, squee, dragon, scarab, any peace of iggi combo or any card we dont like if opp uses witness even if he have a lot of different card in his grave.


I also don't think Scarab should be a problem. Just save one of your Swords to Plowshares and remove it from the game.
they can sacrifise it in response to stp. i can kill it only resolving abeyanse before stp/shards (but if my opp isnt stupid he wiil sac scarab in resp to abeyance), or with furnace or humility in play (but he can sac deed to deal with these cards).


First off, I cut the bandages from my list, and I think you should do the same. This deck does not need a reach through mists, all the other cyclers actually serve some kind of function or create virtual card advantage.
bandages serve some kind of function too. really. i didnt play bandages earlier (i had 2 vengeances and 2 red runes instead of therm) and tested this deck vs goblins a lot. so this matchup wasnt great. it was mb 60-40 or even 50-50 for me. then i added bandages and didnt lose vs goblins yet. bandage doesnt only stops lakey for a turn if i havent stp, its makes shards better. thats why i think bandage is useful not only against goblins but against all decks using creatures. i dont use wrath because smtg like bandage+stp+wing shards during my opp`s combat phase isnt worse against nearly all creature decks (and is better vs landstill). but unlike wrath bandage isnt dead against combodecks because we can just cycle it.


I agree with Jak on the cycle lands. I used to run them, but found them to be too great of a liability. Just stick to the basics.
i use 18 lands and its ok. steppes are nearly always just reach through mists that doesnt make my shards better. so i think i can cut em all adding mb only 1 additional plains. but in theory they can be good vs decks with geddons, red dreams, sinkholes and vindicates... dont know.

so guys what do u think about adding 1 beacon, why do u use wrath of god if u know such card as akroma's vengeance and what are abolishes/disenchants for in ur main decks?

I realize you're from Russia, but that's no reason not to capitalize where appropriate (proper nouns, beginning of sentences, etc.) - Bardo

dude 666
10-13-2007, 03:30 PM
bandages serve some kind of function too. really. i didnt play bandages earlier (i had 2 vengeances and 2 red runes instead of therm) and tested this deck vs goblins a lot. so this matchup wasnt great. it was mb 60-40 or even 50-50 for me. then i added bandages and didnt lose vs goblins yet. bandage doesnt only stops lakey for a turn if i havent stp, its makes shards better. thats why i think bandage is useful not only against goblins but against all decks using creatures. i dont use wrath because smtg like bandage+stp+wing shards during my opp`s combat phase isnt worse against nearly all creature decks (and is better vs landstill). but unlike wrath bandage isnt dead against combodecks because we can just cycle it.


so guys what do u think about adding 1 beacon, why do u use wrath of god if u know such card as akroma's vengeance and what are abolishes/disenchants for in ur main decks?

I feel beacon has no place in the deck because it costs too much mana. If aggro is giving you that much trouble, you'd be better off running pulse of the fields instead.

Wrath of God is good because its usually 2 or more for 1. The example you gave "bandage + stp +wing shards" is 3 cards to get rid of 4 creatures (and draw a card). That cost 5 mana, whereas Wrath costs 4 mana and it would kill those 4 creatures ( or possibly more) by using just one card. Goblins is no longer the force it used to be, so running one card for it is not worth it. If you are having that much trouble with goblins, run RoP:Red, as it handles goblins, burn, and red thresh.

Jak
10-13-2007, 03:39 PM
Bandage should not be cut. It may not be the biggest bomb in the deck, but preventing lackey damage or just rifling through your deck to find answers is great. Plus it is great with Wing Shards. Wing Shards is a bomb, do not underestimate it. Going Bandage into Wingshards is great to get around counters.

I do have a question though. What are peoples thoughts an Samurai of the Pale Curtain. I have been using Tormod's Crypt, but the two together would be really good. I am just having trouble finding room in my SB. Right now My SB is

4 Crypt
4 True Believer
4 Razor Golem
3 Jotun Grunt

So SotPC would go well with the man plan. I just think it would be better with both. Maybe cut Grunts? But he is fat, so I don't know. Ideas?

dude 666
10-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Bandage should not be cut. It may not be the biggest bomb in the deck, but preventing lackey damage or just rifling through your deck to find answers is great. Plus it is great with Wing Shards. Wing Shards is a bomb, do not underestimate it. Going Bandage into Wingshards is great to get around counters.

I do have a question though. What are peoples thoughts an Samurai of the Pale Curtain. I have been using Tormod's Crypt, but the two together would be really good. I am just having trouble finding room in my SB. Right now My SB is

4 Crypt
4 True Believer
4 Razor Golem
3 Jotun Grunt

So SotPC would go well with the man plan. I just think it would be better with both. Maybe cut Grunts? But he is fat, so I don't know. Ideas?

I don't like Samurai because it shuts off your main engine, Eternal Dragon, and it is only good against Ichorid, it does nothing to help your combo matchup. If you are going the man plan, then samurai could feasibly replace Crypt, because Crypt is very weak in this deck.

On another note, I don't like Bandage in this deck, not Wing Shards. Wing Shards is ridiculously good, and it is a 4-of in my deck. Not liking Bandage does not mean I do not like Wing Shards either, I just think there are much better things than Bandage to be played in the deck. Oh, and please, would people stop saying "turn 1 bandage on lackey is the omgzorzzz", as it does not happen nearly often enough, and running one card as mainboard hate against one card in an already favorable matchup is not justification for running that card (I may have went OD on the pronouns there, sorry).

Jak
10-13-2007, 05:29 PM
I am just saying that Bandage on Lackey is good. It is there more for the storm and the draw. You know how people used to play Secluded Steppe for the draw, Bandage is is like that but a ton better adding storm, not setting us back on lands, and has the bonus to prevent. Those are my reasons to play it.

@ SotPC shutting of Eternal Dragon. Does it matter? You go for the man plan, so you don't need to get out 6 lands. It also hurts Breakfast and right now those are 2 of the best combo decks in the format.

Silverdragon
10-13-2007, 05:32 PM
I don't like Samurai because it shuts off your main engine, Eternal Dragon, and it is only good against Ichorid, it does nothing to help your combo matchup. If you are going the man plan, then samurai could feasibly replace Crypt, because Crypt is very weak in this deck.

On another note, I don't like Bandage in this deck, not Wing Shards. Wing Shards is ridiculously good, and it is a 4-of in my deck. Not liking Bandage does not mean I do not like Wing Shards either, I just think there are much better things than Bandage to be played in the deck. Oh, and please, would people stop saying "turn 1 bandage on lackey is the omgzorzzz", as it does not happen nearly often enough, and running one card as mainboard hate against one card in an already favorable matchup is not justification for running that card (I may have went OD on the pronouns there, sorry).

First of all RTFC please. Samurai only stops permanents from going to the graveyard so Eternal Dragon is only affected when it is in play and your opponent can deal 5 damage to it or otherwise destroy it.

Second stop cutting Cyclers from the deck! This is not directed at anyone but is meant to be a reminder.
The only thing that makes this deck better than random monowhite control number 517 is the fact that it can dig through the library much faster and find lands and bombs more reliably than other contenders except for (imho) IBA's latest creation "The Mighty Quinn" that uses an Enlightened Tutor Toolbox plus Snow drawengine.
If you reduce this deck to just some good control cards you might as well splash blue for real counterspells instead of Abeyance or Gilded Light and play Landstill.
Seriously don't even think about taking out most of the cyclers and calling it Wombat. It just isn't anymore without the cycling engine.

Third concerning Wrath of God, yeah, you should absolutely be playing some of them as they are just such a good catch all answer to creatures. However Humility still is a huge bomb against a lot of decks. Especially those that are resilient to Wrath (Cephalid Breakfast, Goblins, Survival come to mind). So I'd try a split of Humilities and Wrath.
Anyway you should remember that Wombat is at its heart a metagame deck built to hate on creature based decks with the drawback of rolling over to combo. Devoting so many slots against decks that may still run you over because your clock is too slow for the hate cards to matter (best example Solidarity which can play around them all day without breaking a sweat) may be futile.

edit: Once more for emphasis Samurai of the Pale Curtain stops Permanents from going to the graveyard. It does Nothing against playing Instants and Sorceries, Cycling, Dredging, Milling or Discarding. It is still good against Dredge because they don't get Zombietokens and their Ichorids don't come back after the first reanimation. Sadly it is bad against most other forms of graveyardbased decks as they can get around it so easy.
edit2: reading is in fact tech. @ykpon You already stated that there won't be many combo decks and you don't run Runes because Burn is not a concern so may I suggest dropping a Gilded Light for Humility number 4 and another one for Wrath or Vengeance? Maybe replace the last 2 Lights with 2 Runes and hope to not run into Tendrils too much (as I already noted earlier you have to hope that anyway).

ykpon
10-13-2007, 06:53 PM
I feel beacon has no place in the deck because it costs too much mana. If aggro is giving you that much trouble, you'd be better off running pulse of the fields instead.
hm u didnt read my first post. i dont need beacon vs fast aggrodecks. i need smtng that can help me against milling myself by cycling vs decks that can deal with all my threats like loam.


@ykpon You already stated that there won't be many combo decks and you don't run Runes because Burn is not a concern so may I suggest dropping a Gilded Light for Humility number 4 and another one for Wrath or Vengeance? Maybe replace the last 2 Lights with 2 Runes and hope to not run into Tendrils too much (as I already noted earlier you have to hope that anyway).
i expect only 1-2 solidarity decks there but also some belchers and iggy. unlike solidarity these mu's are winnable but we need such cards like abeyance and light. and lights arent only vs tendrils, freeze and belcher. it also helps against discard and burn and can pump our shards. so i dont want to cut lights. mb steppes or even faiths but not lights.
humility number 4? i think 3of is more than enough.
did anyone test wombat vs burn? i dont need runes vs goblins but mb we cant win without em vs burn? i didnt test this mu yet and i think some people will play burn cuz its cheap and quite effective. so i need ur help)
i still cant understand why do u think wrath is better than vengeance? i want to believe u because i have wraths and havent any vengeances irl but i cant^^

dude 666
10-13-2007, 07:17 PM
hm u didnt read my first post. i dont need beacon vs fast aggrodecks. i need smtng that can help me against milling myself by cycling vs decks that can deal with all my threats like loam.


i expect only 1-2 solidarity decks there but also some belchers and iggy. unlike solidarity these mu's are winnable but we need such cards like abeyance and light. and lights arent only vs tendrils, freeze and belcher. it also helps against discard and burn and can pump our shards. so i dont want to cut lights. mb steppes or even faiths but not lights.
humility number 4? i think 3of is more than enough.
did anyone test wombat vs burn? i dont need runes vs goblins but mb we cant win without em vs burn? i didnt test this mu yet and i think some people will play burn cuz its cheap and quite effective. so i need ur help)
i still cant understand why do u think wrath is better than vengeance? i want to believe u because i have wraths and havent any vengeances irl but i cant^^


If Loam deck are giving you that much trouble, 4x Phyrexian Furnace should be good enough, other than that, you shouldn't deck yourself. Can you be specific about which matchups you deck yourself against?

Humility as a 3-of should be enough, but wraths are still needed. Bandage isn't gonna save you against fast aggro decks, wrath will. Akroma's Vengeance is good, but not against fast aggro decks, I usually run 3-4 wraths and 2 Vengeances.

Keep the lights, they are useful against many matchups, plus they cycle.

Lights, Faiths, and Runes are all very good against burn. Pulse of the fields is also good.

Silverdragon
10-13-2007, 07:42 PM
I have played this deck in some tournaments (back when Survival and Landstill were about 50% of the field here) so I do have experience with it.
There are lots of different Loamdecks. RG AggroLoam and TerraGeddon are probably the most problematic because they take away lots of your lands. If you expect a lot of those play Sacred Ground or another deck ;)
Against Removal like Deed and Explosives Eternal Dragon is usually good enough to bait. If the Sweeper isn't in play yet you can cycle Decree for a lot end of their turn and swing during your turn and/or keep Abeyance back to get through multiple times in case they might be holding the sweeper. Generally you are looking to use Dragon to draw out mass removal and weaken their creaturebase by trading with their critters, meanwhile assemble 10 or more mana and kill before they know what hit them. All a question of patience.
Gilded Light is bad against Discard decks because it can't safe you from first turn Duress. Because of the rest of your meta as you describe it I won't count on many Discarddecks anyway.
Burn is a coinflip with or without the Lights. I have won my fair share of matches against Burn and lost some. The problem here is again your slow clock. All Gilded Light does is buy you one more turn. Typically you just try to race burn before your opponent naturally draws enough spells to get through your defenses. Gilded Light actually only trades 1:1 here, Renewed Faith almost always goes 2:1 and RoP means easymode.
Wrath is not strictly better than Vengeance in your build since you lack maindeck Disenchant effects. Anyway what makes Wrath so good is that it is only 4 mana, meaning you are able to cast it faster and it is easier to cast multiple spells during one turn, for example Abeyance -> Wrath against Thresh. Cannot be regenerated might also come in handy against Loxodon Hierarch and other "randomness".
Concerning Humility against the decks you need it you really want 4 in your deck. Especially against Survival it can be critical to get one to stick however as you do have 31 cyclers it is easy to find so the only real concern is removal in the form of Krosan Grip, Naturalize or similar cards. I think you are right it isn't that important. Maybe I'm comparing your list too much with my old outdated lists.

edit: btw I played this deck against lots of Landstill and I was never in danger of not being able to draw a card and lose. Even Landstill kills you before that happens (or loses because it can't draw a card). I can't see how you'd deck yourself against a Loamdeck that basically draws 3 cards every turn (Dredge).

ykpon
10-14-2007, 06:13 AM
I realize you're from Russia, but that's no reason not to capitalize where appropriate (proper nouns, beginning of sentences, etc.)
im sorry, its smtng like my style. but if its difficult for nonrussians to read it ill stop it.


Burn is a coinflip with or without the Lights. I have won my fair share of matches against Burn and lost some. The problem here is again your slow clock. All Gilded Light does is buy you one more turn. Typically you just try to race burn before your opponent naturally draws enough spells to get through your defenses. Gilded Light actually only trades 1:1 here, Renewed Faith almost always goes 2:1 and RoP means easymode.
I played burn a little and I think resolving 2nd or even 3rd turn rune is autowin because really a few burn players have anarchy in their sb now. But I also think no need to play rune md, mb Ill find 2-4 slots in sb for this matchup (Im afraid I wont bye 4 chants^^).


Wrath is not strictly better than Vengeance in your build since you lack maindeck Disenchant effects. Anyway what makes Wrath so good is that it is only 4 mana, meaning you are able to cast it faster and it is easier to cast multiple spells during one turn, for example Abeyance -> Wrath against Thresh. Cannot be regenerated might also come in handy against Loxodon Hierarch and other "randomness".
I know wrath is very good card etc. But I dont think I need more removal in this deck. I played against goblins a lot and lost only 1 match of mb 10 or 12 because of heavy screw g1 and starting g3 w/o stp or bandage. I also played vs threshold (ug and ugw ones) about 5 times and didnt meet any troubles killing their creatures. U say about abeyance+wrath against Thresh but abeyance+wrath would be better because it costs 1 mana less and Thresh nearly never have more than 2-3 creatures in play (and i also have stp). So I like wrath of god but I dont like more than 8 cards of removal in this deck because 8 is enough number for me against these decks. To cut shards or swords? Dont think so really.


edit: btw I played this deck against lots of Landstill and I was never in danger of not being able to draw a card and lose. Even Landstill kills you before that happens (or loses because it can't draw a card). I can't see how you'd deck yourself against a Loamdeck that basically draws 3 cards every turn (Dredge).
I think Ure right here. I really met this trouble against only one deck (It was bgw and consisted of top+fetchlands/sakuras, hymns, deeds, stps, duresses, damnations and some good creatures) - I lost 0-2 decking myself in both games, he always had damnation or deed for tokens and stp or extirpate for dragons, if he diddnt he just shuffled his deck to get cards he needed. I dont think such deck will be popular but I dont want to meet this trouble again vs any deck. mb its already paranoia =)

ps argh i hate these Big Letters...

Jak
10-18-2007, 11:48 PM
So I might as well post how I did in our weekly legacy event at the Batcave. I was playing my list of Wombat and tied for first with Volt. Anyways here is the list.

Lands-20
20 Plains

Win-6
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice

Combo Hate-8
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance

Creature Hate-15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility

Other Goodies-11
4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
3 Abolish

SB
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer
4 Razor Golem
3 Jotun Grunt

Out of the list, my favorite part about it was the SB. I went 4 and 0 when I SBed. 1 and 3 when I didn't.

Round 1-Mindslaver/Cludpost Vesuva deck.
He got the lock on me game one when I couldn't draw an Abolish at all. Game 2 I SBed in everything and go 2nd turn True Believer, 3rd turn Golem, and 4th turn Grunt. I win pretty easily. Game 3 I do the same and attack with a lone Believer for a while, holding him back with Chants and abeyances. I end up getting 2 Golems and finish.

Round 2-Glimpse Combo
He beats me first game pretty easily when I don't see a Chant or Abeyance. Game 2 I bring it all in except the Crypts. I keep in mass removal. He goes for the comb like 3rd turn or something and I abeyance him. He leaves out all of his creatures in play. I try to WoG him later and he Scapegoats. later on he draws Glimpse and tries to combo out. He gets a large enought storm and has 9 mana in his pool and I Chant him. Then I am able to finish him off with Grunts and Golems. Game 3 was quick. 2nd turn Believer FTW.

Round 3-Counterslivers (the newer version)
The first game I hold him back for a while. The big play was that he Thoughtseized me and took a Chant? (or a Decree). I then end up top decking Humility. I play Abeyance and then Humiltiy. He scoops with no outs to it. Game 2 happened the same way, but it was much longer. I end up doing the same thing and topdeck a Humility after a Seize (I was lucky). I play it after baiting counters with Wingshards and WoG. In the end I am down to like 2 life and he has 6. I have 9 soldier tokens out there and would win next turn. He then says I hope I draw one of my SB cards. And he did. Engineered Plague. He goes on to win when I have hardly any Win cons left. I think only 1 Dragon. 2 of them got StP. He is then able to beat me down with 1/1s. We decide to split in the end. They were long ass games.

I end up getting 12 bucks in SC and buy 3 packs. Get a Garruk and trade it for Jace.

So I have to conclude that Orims Chant main is great. Gives me another turn against some decks to topdeck a card, big help for storm combo, and is great to get a wrath through or something. The man plan is solid. Speeding up the clock is great against control decks while taking out the dead cards. Anyways, I will write up how I do tomorrow.

ykpon
10-20-2007, 07:26 AM
So I have to conclude that Orims Chant main is great. Gives me another turn against some decks to topdeck a card, big help for storm combo, and is great to get a wrath through or something.
Chant is great but i think its great card for ur sideboard not for main deck. I think it should be replaced with gilded light cuz light is good against combo decks too but also helps against hymns/duresses/echoes and burn.
And can anybody explain me golems sb? believer is good, glowrider and grunt are ok too but such absurd 3/4 for 3.. If u want to be agressive g2 vs combo decks mb to play faster creatures like isamaru/lions?
And, Jak., do u really need those 3 abolishes in Main deck?


I have tested my build a lot against burn, angel stompy, black survival and bg loam lately:
burn: We really need rune in this matchup. We cant lose with rune in play but we lose most of games we didnt install it (w/o runes its 30-70 mb). After sb they can have pithing needles and rarely cursed scrolls so we should keep our disenchants/returns/abolishes. Just replace humility and all removal spells but stp with our sb creatures.
angel stompy: Matchup is bad cuz of 1 card which really hurts us - Armageddon. If we keep 1-2 lands in our hand we still can rehabilitate ourselves with all our dragons and cantrip. But anyway they are faster so its like 90-10 for them after resolving geddon. The only good thing is that they play only 2 (sometimes 3) geddons in their deck.
survival with recurring nightmare: This deck is easier to beat than RGSA cuz it isnt so fast. In both matchups humility wins us a game but against this version we can win with just a phyrexian furnace.
bg loam: i really hate top/cycling lands+life from the loam combo that doesnt let me to remove their life with furnace/crypt/morningtide etc. I know I can deal with it after resolving abeyance but I need smtng else... help me^^

ps What do u think about that lorwyn card, Austere Command?
sorcery for 4WW: Choose two — Destroy all artifacts; or destroy all enchantments; or destroy all creatures with converted mana cost 3 or less; or destroy all creatures with converted mana cost 4 or greater.
Can it replace wrath/vengeance?

and what do u think about cutting renewed faiths for smtng more useful (furnace, light, vengeance, rune etc)? its good only vs burn but in that mu rune is better (and vs goblins too).

Jak
10-21-2007, 11:37 PM
Okay, so I have been using and testing this deck a lot. I played it in a tourney one week and tied for first and the next week got dead last. I then noticed something; almost all my wins were postboard. The only time I won preboard games in the 2 weeks I played was because I resolved a Humility and they scooped or I went and resolved a quick dragon or decree for beat down. I barely won those games still. So this made me think. My SB, which is the man plan, had a fast clock and won, whereas my MD was slow and I just couldn't keep Wrathing every turn, because I eventually ran out. So I need a way to win that isn't affected by Humility or my sweepers. Hmmm... manlands are the obvious choice. SO here is a list for Irish Wombat that I threw together.

Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
8 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Krosan Tusker

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bandage
4 Abeyance
4 Renewed Faith
4 Wing Shards
2 Krosan Grip
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
3 Decree of Justice

SB
4 True Believer
4 Orim's Chant
3 Gilded Light
4 Tormod's Crypt

Thoughts on the build?

Jak
11-08-2007, 09:58 PM
So, has anyone tested man lands in the deck? I think that they could be awesome with Humility and provide a faster clock. So thoughts?

ykpon
11-18-2007, 08:26 AM
I played such build yesterday at russian legacy champs:
20 plains
1 flagstones of trokair (dont know why not to play one cuz its bad target for wasteland and gives us a chance against geddon/dreams/pox)
4 dragon
4 decree
4 stp
4 wing shards
3 humility
2 rune of prored
2 akromas vengeance
4 phyrexian furnace
4 gilded light
4 bandage
4 abeyance
--------
4 true believer
4 glowrider
3 return to dust
2 chant
1 rune of prored
1 wrath of god (played rune and wrath because didn't find 2 more chants)

round 1. My opp played lorwyn precon so 2-0 =)

round 2. bgrw aggroloam, winner of previous legacy champs. One of the worst mus and against really good player. 0-2

round 3. ugrw ******** with isochron scepters. Usually this mu isn't hard but scepeter+bolt became a problem for me g1. Didn't find rune/vengeance and lost. Then won g2 and g3. Best card in this mu was no doubt wing shards. 2-1.

round 4. gw elves/trinity. 2 times I lost against 2-3 rishadan ports with full hands of removal... 1-2, drop.

I think I ll return renewed faiths instead of furnaces or lights because I often wished light in hand to be faith. Also I think I ll make little black splash (1 scrubland for dragons, 3-4 extirpates sb) to deal with loam and to help against some combodecks and landstill. What other cards can help me if I splash black?

Tao
11-18-2007, 09:04 AM
Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
8 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Krosan Tusker

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bandage
4 Abeyance
4 Renewed Faith
4 Wing Shards
2 Krosan Grip
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
3 Decree of Justice

SB
4 True Believer
4 Orim's Chant
3 Gilded Light
4 Tormod's Crypt

Thoughts on the build?

I've been playing a VERY similar deck to this (read that I always say how good IBAs Irish Wombat is). I was also wrong about Bandage, the card is very good. Playing Grip Maindeck is a very good choice.

However, I have a few suggestions:

- Crucible of Worlds: If you have it and a Fetchland you will never miss a land drop again for the rest of the game. So it does the same thing like E Dragon , but you don't have to pay 7 Mana every time you search a land, but only 3 Mana one time (I played 6-7 Fetchlands and 2 Wastelands to take maximum advantage of it). You also play Factories (I did not), so that is one more reason for Crucible.
It is also randomly strong against Landstill or 43 lands and game breaking against Staxx. I've been cutting Dragon totally because it is slow like hell with Humility and inferior to Crucible in Land Search and deck thin.

- Regrowth: that card is SO good. Turn 2 it gets you a needed fetchland back or a Sword against Aggro and in the lategame it is usually Demonic Tutor.

- Phyrexian Furnace: helps against a lot of deck
Ceph Breakfast, Loamdecks, Ichorid/IGGy (though you lose G1, it is nice to have double Yard hate in G2 and G3) and nearly every control mirror.

Joon
11-18-2007, 09:56 AM
Could you please post your list, Tao? I really don't know what to cut for Regrowth and I'd like to see your Manabase with Crucible, thanks :smile:

Nihil Credo
11-18-2007, 10:39 AM
What other cards can help me if I splash black?

Skeletal Scrying is a pretty nice hand-refiller for a deck that can keep a high life total. Also, Engineered Explosives becomes a lot better when it can be set at two.

Jak
11-18-2007, 01:39 PM
I played such build yesterday at russian legacy champs:
20 plains
1 flagstones of trokair (dont know why not to play one cuz its bad target for wasteland and gives us a chance against geddon/dreams/pox)
4 dragon
4 decree
4 stp
4 wing shards
3 humility
2 rune of prored
2 akromas vengeance
4 phyrexian furnace
4 gilded light
4 bandage
4 abeyance
--------
4 true believer
4 glowrider
3 return to dust
2 chant
1 rune of prored
1 wrath of god (played rune and wrath because didn't find 2 more chants)


I don't mean to be rude, but that list is just bad. No wrath main? It may not be effective as it used to be, but you should still be running 3-4. I also feel that running 4 dragon is just too much. You only want one early and they get clunky when you have 2 because you still need business spells to survive. 2-3 Disenchants or Abolishes help alot against random decks. I recommend abolish because it is better against combo. Having the ability to destroy LED is awesome and can set them back. I think these updates will help you out because your list seems out of date.

@Tao
I did try Crucible and it was a ton better than dragon, but have just stayed with him because he is a recurable win condition. I doubt that matters anymore because Crucible makes your other win cons recurable, so I will probably make the switch. I like Regrowth and will test it out. I have played with Furnace a lot in the early days of the deck. I never liked it. GY decks like Thresh could keep a huge yard still and I doubt it would hurt any of the combos because counters and needle would come in from both decks. Well, because of that, I have tried a 3 color build with Extirpates and Haunting Echoes as a win con. It has worked amazingly fixing up some really rough MUs and providing an awesome win. I will post a list if anybody wants to see, when I get the chance.

Oh and from my list, -1 Plains, +1 Baseiju, Who Shelters All. Crazy good card when you need a wrath to resolve against Thresh or Counterslivers.

Jak
05-12-2008, 02:19 AM
NECRO!!!

Well, with Runed Halo coming out, I have gotten really excited about playing this deck again. Combo and creature hate that is actually good creature hate. The card is nuts and just makes the opponents draws worse.

The biggest thing I like about it is that it is a permanent answer like Humility. Against decks like Survival, Swords a goyf just won't do it. Beinb able to stop all future Tarmogoyfs is huge!

Another thing I dislike about older versions is the cycle draw engine. You end up wasting a lot of mana to just dig. I wanted ways to get card advantage because I had the manipulation when I added Top. I added Harmonize because it fit the bill. In the splash color and is +2 CA.

I have been playing around a lot with my Wg Wombat and this is the core.

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
7 Plains
2 Forest

3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Harmonize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility

That leaves 4 slots. Orim's Chant, Oblivion Ring, Krosan Tusker, etc. I like Oblivion Ring because it is so versatile. Either Oblivion Ring or Krosan Grip is what I like to play to deal with any random like Blood Moon hurting my win cons, Chalice, CB, etc.

The SB is strong to with the addition of Whell for GY hate. Ialso need more combo hate like Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Chalice. My current SB is:

4 Chalice ofthe Void
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Lots of combo hate! I really don't care about aggro because Ialready beat that. I beat Thresh and other aggro-control easily. Combo is tough, so I have a lot of hate. Control is difficult. I really rely on my MD to beat it by just having uncounterable win-cons and then SB into the timewalks.

I think this deck has a lot of potential with the new cards and its ability to change.

Illissius
05-12-2008, 06:50 AM
Is splashing for a :g::g: card in Harmonize really better than the much easier :u: splash for Standstill, Fact, Ancestral, Intuition/AK, or any of the other blue draw spells? I mean, yeah, that makes you UW control, but there's nothing preventing you from going W/u instead of the usual U/w, and only splashing for draw but stopping short of Force and Counterspell and the rest.

I notice the Monasteries, but still, splashing for double-colored cards is... unconventional. (The G/W land from Shadowmoor might help, if you want it.)

Jak
05-12-2008, 07:29 AM
Is splashing for a :g::g: card in Harmonize really better than the much easier :u: splash for Standstill, Fact, Ancestral, Intuition/AK, or any of the other blue draw spells? I mean, yeah, that makes you UW control, but there's nothing preventing you from going W/u instead of the usual U/w, and only splashing for draw but stopping short of Force and Counterspell and the rest.

I notice the Monasteries, but still, splashing for double-colored cards is... unconventional. (The G/W land from Shadowmoor might help, if you want it.)

Something I really wanted was a strong win condition. The man lands are that strong win condition. When I am already splashing for Manastery, Harmonize was the first thing I threw in the deck long with it. The double GG is never difficult to obtain when when you run 13 sources of it and I need it by turn 4 the earliest. I have tried a splash of blue, but I felt it to be unnesesary. Fact just reveals some tricks and is the only advantage of it would be that it is instant speed so you could leave Shards mana open in case. Brainstorm isn't what I need. I want guaranteed CA and something I can use to refill. It is hard saying no to Brainstorm. Ancestral is basically Harmonize but the waiting seems like it will hurt me.

I think Harmonize does the job okay. Being double g and a sorcery sucks, but it allows me to stay to colors, keep a strong win condition, and it is still wha I am looking for.

diffy
05-12-2008, 07:48 AM
My Team and I are also currently working on a MWC list. It basically started as a Wr Rifter/Quin merge from which we took out the Lightning Rifts because they don't kill anything anymore. We decided to keep red though because Blood Moon is just such an 'I Win' card, especially if you're already playing Orim's Chant/Abeyance main to protect it.
After the GP: Stuttgart Side-event where Marius Laber piloted the initial Wr Version to a respectable top8 finish, MasterC and I started re-tooling the deck, removing most of the red but the most broken piece [Blood Moon] and adding in more elements from the traditional MWC builds [Pulse of the Fields, Condemn].
Seeing as how the deck gravitated more and more towards a heavily Enchantment based control deck, we also included Enlightened Tutor which made up for the lack of hard card advantage via Card Quality (being able to tutor out a Moat/Humility/Blood Moon or even a CoP effect is brutal). Alongside including the White Tutor, we also included a little toolbox and a pair of Isochron Scepters which are never really bad and allow pulling wins out of no-where via Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant.

Here's the list:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (23)
2 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/285.html)
1 Kor Haven (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/141.html)
1 Darksteel Citadel (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/164.html)
6 Snow-Covered Plains (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/350.html)
6 Plains (http://magiccards.info/guru/en/4.html)
2 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
2 Plateau (http://magiccards.info/be/en/292.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
1 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)

// Win Conditions (5)
3 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Removal (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
1 Condemn (http://magiccards.info/di/en/8.html)
1 Wing Shards (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/25.html)
2 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)

// Enlightened Tutor Toolbox (13)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
3 Runed Halo (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/21.html)
2 Isochron Scepter (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/188.html)
1 Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)
1 Story Circle (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/51.html)
1 Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/57.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
1 Moat (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/197.html)

// Miscellaneous (11)
4 Orim's Chant (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/11.html)
2 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html)
3 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
2 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
1 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html)
2 Aura of Silence (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/123.html)
4 Ghostly Prison (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/10.html)
2 Rule of Law (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/19.html)
2 Sacred Ground (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/112.html)
1 Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/243.html)


The Vitu-Ghazi tech is savagely ripped from Iba and definitely worth the small green splash: being able to produce a chump-blocker a turn or being able to use it as Wincondition turns it into basically a mini Decree of Justice that doesn't take up slots (the manabase is stable enough to support the colourless lands). The lone Kor Haven is also pretty good tech and literally good in every non-combo matchup - it's like a Maze of Ith that doesn't suck as it can still produce mana. The one Darksteel Citadel is taken from the Quin lists and sadly is necessary for added consistency via Enlightened Tutor.
I'm not too fond of the Story Circle, but it is necessary against decks like Burn and still okay in most other matchups, especially since it shuts NQG more or less completely down on its own. I'm not too fond of the Oblivion Ring either but it seems to be a necessary evil as every time I cut the slot I have problems due to not being able to tutor up a Disenchant effect. It is played over something like Aura of Silence or Seal of Cleansing due to its versatility. The lone Wing Shard slot is also somewhat shaky as it is pretty horrible in the early game, but it is the best complement for the removal suite (Condemn isn't exactly what you're looking for either), leaves you with the option to create card advantage and is a good fit for the curve
This version is only playing 2 Wrath of Gods because you have a single Moat to complement them upping the numbers to 3 and virtually upping the numbers to 6 due to the Enlightened Tutors now being able to search a pseudo-WoG in Moat.
The two Pulse of the Fields are pretty good and only get better as the game proceeds and tremendously help you stabilize. They are pretty important against your worse matchups (anything with a clock to put you on low life to then finish you off with burn - think: Tempo Thrash) and range from 'okay' (NQG - they can at least stall a Nimble Mongoose forcing the opponent to be 2for1'd with mass removal) to 'pretty good' (Goblins - if you manage to handle their Piledrivers) in most others.
The two Sensei's Divining Tops are a remainder form the days when the list still was running the Snow-Engine (aka. Scrying Sheets + Snow Lands). The Snow-Engine was eventually abandoned because it was way too slow, but we found the Tops to help a great deal to survive the mid-game by smoothing out your draws when you get low on cards in hand (around turn 5-6) even if you only run very few shuffle effects. We originally had 3 in there, but two has turned out to be the correct number as you don't want them early and because you can't afford to get stuck on two in your hand/on top of your library.

The sideboard is largely meta-dependent with this particular board being focused on beating the Haßloch meta with loads of Stax (Sacred Ground, Aura of Silence) and aggro-control (NQG, Fish) but therefore little combo.
I would recommend keeping the 1/2 split of Tormod's Crypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon regardless of the meta though as Crypt is superior against Ichorid, to reset the Grave in order to stall or prior to getting your Wheel of Sun and Moon down.

FredMaster
05-12-2008, 09:24 AM
I just got one question concerning the Tree. Wouldn't it be easier to support a Kjeldoran Outpost than this tiny green splash plus bigger ability costs?

diffy
05-12-2008, 09:36 AM
I just got one question concerning the Tree. Wouldn't it be easier to support a Kjeldoran Outpost than this tiny green splash plus bigger ability costs?

The main problem with Kjeldoran Outpost is the 'sac a land part': in the early game this is a virtual Timewalk for your opponent (hitting land drops is essential and the main key to winning), in the midgame loosing a land still hurts and in the lategame the difference in activation costs doesn't really matter any more.

Zach Tartell
05-12-2008, 09:36 AM
I just got one question concerning the Tree. Wouldn't it be easier to support a Kjeldoran Outpost than this tiny green splash plus bigger ability costs?

Vitru Ghazi doesn't say "Sacrifice a plains."

That shit's like really bad for control.

FredMaster
05-12-2008, 11:28 AM
Who cares if you sacrifice one of your 8 plains on turn x+20?

diffy
05-12-2008, 11:31 AM
Who cares if you sacrifice one of your 8 plains on turn x+20?

Who cares if you have to spend two more mana on turn x+20?
In the lategame, there's not a lot of difference between Outpost and Vitu-Ghazi - the difference lies in the early game where Outpost will seriously set you back whereas Vitu-Ghazi still acts as a 'normal' manasource.

Jak
05-12-2008, 08:07 PM
@ Der's List

I never really liked the tutor toolbox, just because it never helped ay tough MUs. Sure, the Scepter Chant was cool, but it never really did anything games 2 and 3. It can grab stuff liek Moat and Humility, but Wombat should own creatures (except Survival, but I think that has improved with Halo and more Man lands to own under Humility). I like how it can answer stuff like LD with Sacred Ground from the board, but I never thought that was enough.

I am still trying to fit Crucible in my list because it would be nice. Recurring man lands and help in MUs with Sinkhole, etc. Sadly, I don't have room and my MD is tight.

bigbear102
05-12-2008, 08:46 PM
Having played Vitu-Ghazi in this deck before, I can say that it is absolutely the worst card to splash green for. Above it on the list are:

Krosan Tusker-Nuts for this deck

Gaea's Blessing- Brings back Decrees

Monastary- kills shit instead of chumping it. If they keep StP in for your land, you just gained 4 life and they changed their strategy for the worse.

Krosan Grip- kills shit

I would even play Tarmogoyf over Vitu-Ghaze, at least he's a defensive tool turn 2 and can win the game quicker once you get to the late game.

Either way, you should add 2 more DoJ MD, seeing as they are one of the best cards in your deck in a lot of matchups.

Jak
05-13-2008, 01:06 AM
Krosan Tusker is awesome, but I have been having doubts about him. Well, not really doubts, but I needed the room. He is awesome, but Eternal Dragon is just better at getting the must needed white if you are under a Moon or have 2 man lands out.

Also, I have tried Goyf, but he just wasn't like he is in Landstill. They are able to drop him under a standstill, or protect it with counter magic, sadly, RW can't. He is hurt by a lot of your removal and was just unnecessary.

raharu
05-13-2008, 01:36 AM
Krosan Tusker is a really underrated card. It's card advantage and mana fixing in the early game, and a huge win-con later on. I would consider it heavily for a version of the deck running Blood Moon, and at least try to fit it into most of the other versions running green.

Smog
05-13-2008, 02:06 PM
Vitru Ghazi doesn't say "Sacrifice a plains."

That shit's like really bad for control.

MTL10
05-16-2008, 03:55 PM
I'm sorry if i offend anyone by asking this, but do people actually enjoy playing decks like these? Look at me play a land, look at me cycle a card to draw a card, look at me wrath of god your creatures, look at me do some more NOTHING. So, every now and then you get to cast an eternal dragon, that's really good when you play with HUMILITY... wow, that's the most expensive 1/1 vanilla creature i've ever seen. When's the last time you won a match on time playing this deck? I honestly don't ever see this deck finishing a match within a 50 minute time slot by winning.

Be productive please. Posts like these only serve to troll.

-PR

Jak
05-16-2008, 06:30 PM
I'm sorry if i offend anyone by asking this, but do people actually enjoy playing decks like these? Look at me play a land, look at me cycle a card to draw a card, look at me wrath of god your creatures, look at me do some more NOTHING. So, every now and then you get to cast an eternal dragon, that's really good when you play with HUMILITY... wow, that's the most expensive 1/1 vanilla creature i've ever seen. When's the last time you won a match on time playing this deck? I honestly don't ever see this deck finishing a match within a 50 minute time slot by winning.

Be productive please. Posts like these only serve to troll.

-PR

Some people enjoy interactive games instead of a quick 2 turns. You should also try going to Dictionary.com and look up "nothing".

I really hope we don't have another radley on our hands. If you would like to know more about this or any deck, please do something better than this to ask.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-16-2008, 09:36 PM
I like piggies.


gtgkillinterrorists

- luv, Jack

raharu
05-19-2008, 10:54 AM
I like piggies.


gtgkillinterrorists

- luv, Jack
I just finished my playset. They're dumb, but I'd like to see them in a competitive, non-rock deck. Right now they're in a Oversold Cemetery shell right now. Also:


Rant rant rant, I don't understand that MWC is a backbreaker against agro, whine, I can't process that this pretty much rapes Goblins, etc, etc......
wow, that's the most expensive 1/1 vanilla creature i've ever seen.

Scornful Egotist.

Zach Tartell
05-19-2008, 11:43 AM
Do we have a list for a WG deck? I'd love to throw in snow shit, too, on account of I actually own Scrying Sheets.

Somebody else can worry about the particulars, though. Y'know, like, making a list.

overseer1234
05-19-2008, 05:19 PM
Does anyone have an updated list?

Or is this deck just not viable anymore in this metagame? (which wouldn't surprise me since most of those older rogue decks aren't)

Jak
05-19-2008, 07:01 PM
Mine

61 Cards
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
7 Plains
2 Forest

3 Eternal Dragon
2 Krosan Tusker
3 Decree of Justice
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Harmonize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring / Krosan Grip

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Orim's Chant
3-4 Abeyance
3-4 (Tarmogoyf, Wheel of S and M, Akroma's Vengeance, WhatEverIFeelLike)

Curby
05-19-2008, 09:15 PM
Mine



Does this play the same way as Rabid Wombat? You seem to have lost the majority of your cycling cards. It seems like a creature-hate deck with man-lands. Also, would a tutor+toolbox approach work? You have a lot of enchantments, some of which seem a bit situational. Lastly, have you considered using Crucible to recur lands? You could even toss in some Wastelands in place of some manlands.

raharu
05-19-2008, 11:38 PM
Does this play the same way as Rabid Wombat? You seem to have lost the majority of your cycling cards. It seems like a creature-hate deck with man-lands. Also, would a tutor+toolbox approach work? You have a lot of enchantments, some of which seem a bit situational. Lastly, have you considered using Crucible to recur lands? You could even toss in some Wastelands in place of some manlands.
I'm not entirely sure that the cycling cards are really needed anymore. Th answers that Jak. runs are mostly permanent or stick around, and a good few of the old cycling cards don't have good enough abilities anymore, or so it seems.

Jak
05-20-2008, 01:14 AM
Does this play the same way as Rabid Wombat? You seem to have lost the majority of your cycling cards. It seems like a creature-hate deck with man-lands. Also, would a tutor+toolbox approach work? You have a lot of enchantments, some of which seem a bit situational. Lastly, have you considered using Crucible to recur lands? You could even toss in some Wastelands in place of some manlands.

Harmonize, Top, and Piggie replace the cycling engine. It gives card quality and card advantage while taking up less slots. Also, running Runed Halo is a must.

Jak
05-25-2008, 04:47 PM
So I have been playing around with my version a lot. The deck still crushes Aggro like Goblins and Dragon Stompy. I feel really good about that because it means the deck still does what it is meant to do and hasn't strayed from its roots.

I finished a few games with TES with good results. You lose game 1. You can win if you get a turn 2 Halo on Tendrils. They have to have a complete shit hand so don't count on going 1-0. Game 2 is a lot better. Chalice, Halo, Chant, and Abeyance make it a lot better. Go for a Chalice at zero to slow them down and hopefully draw into 15 of your other hate cards.

I still want to test against Landstill, Survival, and Thresh. I feel Survival and Thresh shouldn't be as dificult as they were with my old Rabid Wombat. I feel this version is consistent and fixes a lot of flaws the older lists. With improved draw and win conditions, the deck has a whole new feel.

Oh and here is what I used to test. It is a little different because I wanted to try out Krosan Tusker.

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
7 Plains
2 Forest

3 Eternal Dragon
4 Krosan Tusker
3 Decree of Justice
3 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Krosan Grip

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon

In the MD, enchantment and artifact removal is a must. There is so much random out there that this deck needs to be able to deal with. Shackles, Deed, EE, Counterbalance, Moat, Confinement, Worship, The Rack, Top, Vial, Propaganda, Parallax Tide, Chalice, Trini, Jitte, Sword of Fire and ice, Moon, etc. I like O ring because iit is so versatile, but it aint no Instant. I still want to test but the 2/2 split was okay.

I think Harmonize can still find a slot because the CA is good for this deck, but I liked having 4 Tuskers. I never get mana screwed anymore and it still provides the CA.

Anyone been playing around with this or something like it?

Sanguine Voyeur
05-25-2008, 04:58 PM
You can win if you get a turn 2 Halo on Tendrils.I'm going to contest that. TES can both go off before turn two, and wish for an answer for Halo.

Jak
05-25-2008, 06:11 PM
I'm going to contest that. TES can both go off before turn two, and wish for an answer for Halo.

Ugh, I worded that wrong. I meant that is the only way you can win. So it was more of a way of saying that you might as well scoop it up and go to game 2.

Eldariel
05-25-2008, 06:23 PM
Ugh, I worded that wrong. I meant that is the only way you can win. So it was more of a way of saying that you might as well scoop it up and go to game 2.

You can MD Abeyances to try to mise G1, but it still isn't easy. As a bonus though, Abeyance cantrips and has uses for forcing spells through versus control- and aggro-control decks.

Jak
05-25-2008, 07:02 PM
You can MD Abeyances to try to mise G1, but it still isn't easy. As a bonus though, Abeyance cantrips and has uses for forcing spells through versus control- and aggro-control decks.

Yes, I know. When I added Runed Halo, I had to cut some MD cards. Abeyance was it. After getting beat several times by decks this deck should and needs to beat like Survival, I wanted to focus on beating anything that ran creatures as a win condition. Abeyance didn't really do anything in those MUs and Runed Halo was just better.

Being able to crush aggro, having a good MU against aggro-control, and having good odds against combo makes me feel this deck is really great. Sure, it will lose to random like Pox and Mono White Stax, but you can customize your SB to your meta. Sacred Ground owns them. I think the deck has potential.

darkalucard
06-18-2008, 08:40 PM
I hate the win conditions in Dragon and Decree.
Decree requires about 10 lands to be good. Decree can only fog on 4-6 mana Dragon requires 5 mana to return and 7 to play, that could essential be a waste of an entire turn, there are better faster things that can be done.
because we require so much land to win, having land is our weakness
Designing the deck to play on allot of lands is card disadvatage because those lands could be spells.


Why doesnt this deck play Life from the Loam?
- It gets the deck lands.
- Removes the decks weakness.
- Could be played with cyclers for card advatage

When I picked up this deck randomly months ago I looked at it, though about its weaknesses and the metagame. Stuck in Factory's and Monastary's, 2x Life from the Loam and 2x Extirpate. Every match I played they were the KEY cards. I beat Stax through 3x Armadeggons b/c Life from the Loam. I beat Eva Green through all its discard and lands destruction via Life from the Loam.

BTW this deck doesnt beat the control decks anymore because the format is prepared for tokens and so you cannot beat another control with tokens. There are too many Engineered Explosives and Stifles. And your dragons will get StP'd.

I love this deck, I have gotten a fetish with Runed Halo's.. but this deck has so many problems.

Jak
06-19-2008, 01:17 AM
I hate the win conditions in Dragon and Decree.
Decree requires about 10 lands to be good. Decree can only fog on 4-6 mana Dragon requires 5 mana to return and 7 to play, that could essential be a waste of an entire turn, there are better faster things that can be done.
because we require so much land to win, having land is our weakness
Designing the deck to play on allot of lands is card disadvatage because those lands could be spells.


Why doesnt this deck play Life from the Loam?
- It gets the deck lands.
- Removes the decks weakness.
- Could be played with cyclers for card advatage

When I picked up this deck randomly months ago I looked at it, though about its weaknesses and the metagame. Stuck in Factory's and Monastary's, 2x Life from the Loam and 2x Extirpate. Every match I played they were the KEY cards. I beat Stax through 3x Armadeggons b/c Life from the Loam. I beat Eva Green through all its discard and lands destruction via Life from the Loam.

BTW this deck doesnt beat the control decks anymore because the format is prepared for tokens and so you cannot beat another control with tokens. There are too many Engineered Explosives and Stifles. And your dragons will get StP'd.

I love this deck, I have gotten a fetish with Runed Halo's.. but this deck has so many problems.

I agree with everything you have said. The win conditions are good, but do nothing early game. This is why I added man lands. They apply the needed pressure early game and serve as good blockers late game.

I plan on testing loam out because it does seem nice with man lands. Did you add some cycle lands or wasteland? The only reason I am reluctant to run it is because it will change the deck. With the nonbasic landsyou have to cut back basics. This makes Tusker and dragon weaker in the lategame. You will also want ways to recur so you'll add Witness or regrowth. Ijust don't think it will be the same. If you are using it just to recur a few manlands and so you don't fold to LD, then I could see it in the SB.

darkalucard
06-19-2008, 02:32 AM
I plan on testing loam out because it does seem nice with man lands. Did you add some cycle lands or wasteland? The only reason I am reluctant to run it is because it will change the deck. With the nonbasic landsyou have to cut back basics. This makes Tusker and dragon weaker in the lategame. You will also want ways to recur so you'll add Witness or regrowth. Ijust don't think it will be the same. If you are using it just to recur a few manlands and so you don't fold to LD, then I could see it in the SB.

I started with an older base and liked the idea of cycling lands because when mana flooded you can cycle them and when mana screwed or playing against LD you can play them. Then added LFTL. I played 4x Secluded Steppe and 2x Tranquil Thicket. You don't need that many non-basics just a few fetches and a few duals 1x of each even. I honestly don't like Tusker, when you need the land you usually dont have 3 mana and when you do its seems a waste, i'd rather play LFTL to get land. And your late game should be good enough you dont need tusker and you can get card advantage with LFTL.

Also running Witness and regrowth is just a temptation, you dont have to run them just because you may be dredging. GG1 is too much and should not be played, maybe regrowth or geas blessing but i wouldn't play more than 2x of these effects as sometimes they dont do anything and paying IG just to get some card you dont have mana to play sucks.

Reacurring mana-lands can single handedly beat many decks and its more effeciant than dragon most of the time. Just think of it like Crucible in Landstill. Also many decks run wastelands and sometimes even if they dont you still need lands because the deck is so mana hungry. I played LFTL at 2x with 6x cycling lands and NO other support cards with it. There is a danger of cool things. You should strive for effeciancy. Oh and wasteland i dont think is good in the deck because you need the land more than your opponent, why would the most land hungry deck ever want to destroy its own lands, you need every land drop and colored source you can get. Man lands are more important.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-25-2008, 04:56 PM
So.... does this deck have anything in common with Rabid Wombat anymore? Or are we just saying that the original deck in question isn't really competitive anymore?

I mean, I kind of agree, that's why I went with Quinn. But this seems like it's beating around the bush. You guys are talking about very slowly turning it into Eternal Slide. Just go for it.

Jak
06-25-2008, 05:27 PM
So.... does this deck have anything in common with Rabid Wombat anymore? Or are we just saying that the original deck in question isn't really competitive anymore?

I mean, I kind of agree, that's why I went with Quinn. But this seems like it's beating around the bush. You guys are talking about very slowly turning it into Eternal Slide. Just go for it.

I tested it a little and I just didn't like it. First, I hate recurring it. Not because of the dredge, but because it is so mana intensive. Playing Loam and then getting back 2 cycling lands just isn't worth it. I still am working with the spot, but I hated Loam. I am putting it in the SB.

I am still working with the CA slot. I also am testing Rout. Irun a lot of mana sources and an istant speed WoG is pretty nice. Just as a 2-of though.

What sucks is that I just want to splash blue. That would provide the best draw, but I just don't want to for some reason. Anyway, from my list, I would just do this if I did add blue.

+4 Standstill
+4 Brainstorm

-3 Top
-4 Krosan Tusker/Harmonize

The mana base gets a lot weaker, but you get some of the best draw. I would also add some FoF.

4 Savannah
4 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Plains

3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
1 Meloku (I love the cardand have to throw it in)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility

SB
4 Orim's Chant
4 Krosan Grip
7 Combo Hate

hugh1130
06-25-2008, 06:54 PM
I tested it a little and I just didn't like it. First, I hate recurring it. Not because of the dredge, but because it is so mana intensive. Playing Loam and then getting back 2 cycling lands just isn't worth it. I still am working with the spot, but I hated Loam. I am putting it in the SB.

I am still working with the CA slot. I also am testing Rout. Irun a lot of mana sources and an istant speed WoG is pretty nice. Just as a 2-of though.

What sucks is that I just want to splash blue. That would provide the best draw, but I just don't want to for some reason. Anyway, from my list, I would just do this if I did add blue.

+4 Standstill
+4 Brainstorm

-3 Top
-4 Krosan Tusker/Harmonize

The mana base gets a lot weaker, but you get some of the best draw. I would also add some FoF.

4 Savannah
4 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Plains

3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
1 Meloku (I love the cardand have to throw it in)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility

SB
4 Orim's Chant
4 Krosan Grip
7 Combo Hate

this list begs the question, why would you ever run this over landstill?

your playing blue... why no force and it turns into standstill starting there

Jak
06-26-2008, 01:07 AM
this list begs the question, why would you ever run this over landstill?

your playing blue... why no force and it turns into standstill starting there

That is the reason I was hesitant to splash. You basically crush aggro, aggro-control, and the Landstill MU is still about even. You can win post board against combo if you build your SB correctly. One of the weaknesses of RW has always been the draw engine. It really can't depend on Wrath to provide 3 for 1s anymore so adding more CA helps. Oh and you can also beat Survival. Landstill sometimes has trouble with that.

That is an untested list, thrown together to add the must needed CA. I am sure it can get better.

Illissius
06-26-2008, 06:55 AM
I don't like the "don't splash blue because you might turn into Landstill" argument. There is no law of Magic which states that if you splash for one blue card, you have to splash for 20, play Force of Will, and become a blue deck instead. Basically, if you want better draw, and if blue has the best draw, then it makes zero sense to go with any other color. Maybe the deck will be worse than Landstill, but if you go with the other color which has worse draw than blue, then it will be even worse than that. In any case, whether it's better or worse I think obviously depends on matchups and metagame: white board control splashing blue for draw spells is going to better against creature decks, and Landstill is going to be better against combo decks and other control decks.

And because I can't help myself asking anywhere it's applicable: What about Ancestral Vision? There isn't a whole lot you are otherwise doing on turn one, with the occasional exception of casting Swords to Plowshares targetting Goblin Lackey.

Jak
06-26-2008, 03:43 PM
Hmm, I do like the idea of Ancestral. Doees it work as a 3-of, though? Or would it need to be played as a 4-of to be played turn one? I really don't think the deck needs that much draw because Runed Halo, Wrath and Wing Shards still provide some CA. Standstill feels like it belongs just because it has so much synergy. Brainstorm is a draw 3 and it works well with Wing Shards. Maybe the deck doesn't need anything outside of those?

I do plan on testing Cunning Wish. I really want answers to stuff like CB, Shackles, etc so running it would give me some versatility.

Maëlig
06-26-2008, 05:30 PM
Looks interesting, although I'm not too sure on the

4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
part. The dis-synergy between runed halo and WoG should be noted (although both cards are obviously still good). I would maybe cut some WoG which are not so great in the current meta (and are very much expected and played-around since you play white control), probably for some card draw/tutor (cunning wish seems like a nice idea).
Oh and also,

4 Savannah
just to support the

2 Nantuko Monastery
seems a bit dodgy, I would advise cutting to 1 or 2 and play more basics (at least 1 island).

Jak
06-26-2008, 05:34 PM
Looks interesting, although I'm not too sure on the

part. The dis-synergy between runed halo and WoG should be noted (although both cards are obviously still good). I would maybe cut some WoG which are not so great in the current meta (and are very much expected and played-around since you play white control), probably for some card draw/tutor (cunning wish seems like a nice idea).
Oh and also,

just to support the

seems a bit dodgy, I would advise cutting to 1 or 2 and play more basics (at least 1 island).

I agree with this completely. As I said, I threw the list together to show a basic outline.

I may cut down WoG to 2-3. I love the card but with Runed Halo, it just isn't as strong.

Illissius
06-26-2008, 10:38 PM
What dissynergy does Wrath have with Halo? That it takes out creatures which are already, effectively, "taken out"? That also applies to every other piece of removal in the deck: Wrath will take out one fewer creature whenever you kill a creature with a different removal spell, it doesn't much matter whether the creature is still physically in play. I think there's actually some slight synergy, because Wrath acts as insurance in case they somehow remove your Halo(s). (So yeah, maybe cutting down on Wrath because you have lots of spot removal is a good idea, but not because of Halo specifically I don't think.)

Jak
06-27-2008, 01:33 AM
What dissynergy does Wrath have with Halo? That it takes out creatures which are already, effectively, "taken out"? That also applies to every other piece of removal in the deck: Wrath will take out one fewer creature whenever you kill a creature with a different removal spell, it doesn't much matter whether the creature is still physically in play. I think there's actually some slight synergy, because Wrath acts as insurance in case they somehow remove your Halo(s). (So yeah, maybe cutting down on Wrath because you have lots of spot removal is a good idea, but not because of Halo specifically I don't think.)

Yeah, I agree. I was just looking for more room and Wrath would be the first thing trimmed down by one copy.

Maëlig
06-27-2008, 04:45 AM
What dissynergy does Wrath have with Halo? That it takes out creatures which are already, effectively, "taken out"? That also applies to every other piece of removal in the deck: Wrath will take out one fewer creature whenever you kill a creature with a different removal spell, it doesn't much matter whether the creature is still physically in play. I think there's actually some slight synergy, because Wrath acts as insurance in case they somehow remove your Halo(s). (So yeah, maybe cutting down on Wrath because you have lots of spot removal is a good idea, but not because of Halo specifically I don't think.)
Except the creature is not effectively "taken out", but can still block your mishra's factories. I will give you that this doesn't matter in most cases since it gives you time to find a dragon or a DoJ, but it has to be noted. Whereas creatures killed by stp or wing shards will be replaced as quickly as possible in order to keep the pressure (thus opening a spot for WoG), the opponent might not over-extend that much with runed halo, especially if he's playing control or has other methods of killing you.
I honestly think WoG is not what it was in the current meta (where one big creature can do the game). Stp + wing shards + runed halo + humility + blocking factories should be more than enough 90% of the time. And against decks playing tons of creatures, I would say you'd be better off running ghostly prison in the SB, which is also very effective against ichorid and storm-based combo, two very difficult MU.

thefreakaccident
06-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Yeah, Colton was drunk last night... partially my fault, I kinda tricked him into doing it...

Sorry for the thread destruction :)

snackfu
11-27-2008, 04:39 PM
Is anyone still playing this? I am considering taking this to my local shop since people are finally deciding to hate on goblins again (One guy boarded 4 engineered plagues and 3 or 4 infests against me. I still won.)

As a start, I was thinking of something like this:

4 Secluded Steppe
16 Plains

4 Eternal Dragon

4 Abeyance
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
3 Wrath of God
4 Renewed Faith
3 Decree of Justice
3 Rune of Protection: Red
3 Gilded Light
4 Runed Halo
4 Angelsong

Any comments? Latest lists? Kjeldoran Outpost? (I don't want to splash green)

Thanks

Jaynel
11-27-2008, 04:41 PM
I'd recommend looking at The Mighty Quinn thread.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-27-2008, 09:31 PM
Indeed. Mighty Quinn is a fundamental upgrade on the concepts of Rabid Wombat.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-12-2008, 08:06 PM
Actually, Relic of Progenitus seems like it might solve some of the same problems that are otherwise solved by the Quinn structure. I'm going to explore this more. Quinn is probably still better, but I'm at least intrigued by the idea of Wombat with 4x Relic.

Citrus-God
12-13-2008, 01:12 AM
Actually, Relic of Progenitus seems like it might solve some of the same problems that are otherwise solved by the Quinn structure. I'm going to explore this more. Quinn is probably still better, but I'm at least intrigued by the idea of Wombat with 4x Relic.

Well, there's also the possibility for maindeck Runed Halos as well.

But to be honest, I think Quinn is better mainly because you have tools against combo decks.

Jak
12-13-2008, 03:13 AM
Well, there's also the possibility for maindeck Runed Halos as well.

But to be honest, I think Quinn is better mainly because you have tools against combo decks.

And the snow engine and Tops is a nice step forward. I feel that Quinn is just the natural evolution of MWC (Wombat) so I don't think going back to a cycle engine and reactive answers is good for the deck. Quinn does well with the combination of both, a nice tutor + toolbox package, and a faster kill.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-13-2008, 03:14 AM
Yeah, I basically came to the conclusion that it was still just better to fit Relic in Quinn, if necessary.