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LeaPlath
05-21-2013, 05:27 AM
So. We are getting another sliver lord at 2 mana, and some other intresting slivers, so what do you guys think to Slivers in Modern?

I've been playing around with GWB Slivers, playing it at Junk aggro backed up with all the removal, and the ability to win versus decks like Pod that want to gain infinate life using poison from Virulent Sliver, but I've worked on other builds.

So what do people think? Can slivers be a deck in modern? Maybe even a counter slivers type build?

firebadmattgood
05-21-2013, 03:43 PM
Needs a hexproof sliver at 2 mana or it's just merfolk with worse mana.

cartoonist
05-21-2013, 11:33 PM
Junk is the best shell for them right now, with decent discard and elimination backup. Those colors bring the power/toughness boosters and cheap, useful options. I still think Frenzy Sliver has potential, just because he's a pseudo lord. That's what I'll be building. The little buggers have always been my favorite tribe.

Pinder
05-22-2013, 11:32 AM
Needs a hexproof sliver at 2 mana or it's just merfolk with worse mana.

Yep. The viability of a Sliver deck in any format really depends on having a way to protect them from targeted removal because you need a critical mass of dudes in order for your guys to be effective.

:g::w::b: as a color scheme seems intriguing - you don't have access to Crystalline sliver so you might as well drop blue and use proactive discard to protect your guys rather than countermagic.

If you're looking for a third color besides white and green that isn't blue, though, red is definitely worth checking out. Due to Time Spiral, Spined Sliver is in Modern and you get another one-drop sliver in Striking Sliver with a relevant ability (albeit one that doesn't stack). Access to 8 lords, Spined Sliver and Sidewinder Sliver can make combat ridiculously unfair for your opponent so long as you can keep your dudes protected (crossing my fingers for a green hexproof sliver). You could also run Virulent Sliver as a way to get around decks that gain infinite life, which would give you 12 1-drop slivers in the main.

Something like this:

4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
4 Virulent Sliver

4 Path to Exile
4 Boros Charm
4 Aether Vial
2-4 Lightning Bolt
2-4 Hive Stirrings

4 Cavern of Souls
16 Lands


All 3 modes of Boros Charm are surprisingly relevant for a :g::r::w: sliver build. The damage gives you the reach to push through the last few points of damage, the double-strike is a neat combat trick/another way to push through more damage, and the indestructibility saves you from overextending into sweepers and from most removal.

Of course, I'm not as familiar with the Modern metagame as I was with Legacy, so all of these card choices were made in a vacuum. It's likely any list would need tweaking to adapt to specific strategies.

edit: Also, if you're looking at a :g::w::b: build, I would take a look at Blind Obedience. Having all of their potential blockers come down tapped is a huge tempo swing for you, and extort gives you a bit of inevitability if the ground game gets clogged.

LeaPlath
05-22-2013, 03:29 PM
Yeah. I think Slivers in modern need to go in a different direction. Without an evasion sliver and hexproof sliver in Bant, I don't think Counterslivers can work, and the mana base will be a little shakey and painful.

Couple of ideas:

UWR Slivers - A tempoey sliver build. Boros Charm, Burn, Izzet Charm, counters, the good UWR slivers and frenetic sliver to avoid removal. I played around with this and found it a lot more resistant to removal because you have a 50% chance to avoid it which means it is harder to get blown out.

RWB Slivers - Basically lords, removal and sedge sliver. Needs to run a lot more swamps as shocks etc so you can trigger all the sliver buffs.

Amon Amarth
05-25-2013, 12:19 AM
Yeah. I think Slivers in modern need to go in a different direction. Without an evasion sliver and hexproof sliver in Bant, I don't think Counterslivers can work, and the mana base will be a little shakey and painful.

Couple of ideas:

UWR Slivers - A tempoey sliver build. Boros Charm, Burn, Izzet Charm, counters, the good UWR slivers and frenetic sliver to avoid removal. I played around with this and found it a lot more resistant to removal because you have a 50% chance to avoid it which means it is harder to get blown out.

RWB Slivers - Basically lords, removal and sedge sliver. Needs to run a lot more swamps as shocks etc so you can trigger all the sliver buffs.

A three color mana base seems fine with Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial putting in a ton of work.

If we could just be blessed with another ridiculous hexproof creature that'd be great. It's not like Wizards gives half a fuck about toning those guys down. :P

nedleeds
05-25-2013, 11:40 AM
Just Merfolk with worse mana? In a format with no wasteland ... nice in depth analysis.

How about Junk slivers gets to play actual removal spells. Actual hand disruption. Instead of making random inane statements you should compare apples to apples, like - why play the slivers over the men that GWB already has available - e.g. Goyf, Ooze, Smiter, etc.

elof
05-25-2013, 04:31 PM
One of moderns best Slivers is Mirror Entity and should be worth including.

firebadmattgood
05-28-2013, 01:51 PM
Just Merfolk with worse mana? In a format with no wasteland ... nice in depth analysis.

How about Junk slivers gets to play actual removal spells.

You mean the way merfolk decks in modern splash white for path or red for bolt and moon effects?


Actual hand disruption.

That's a fair point.


Instead of making random inane statements you should compare apples to apples, like - why play the slivers over the men that GWB already has available - e.g. Goyf, Ooze, Smiter, etc.

Yeah, comparing decks that win through tribal dudes that pump each other is just totally inane and random. Are you high?

Aggro_zombies
05-28-2013, 02:10 PM
Yeah, comparing decks that win through tribal dudes that pump each other is just totally inane and random. Are you high?
Well, okay, sure, we've established that Slivers is worse as a tribal deck than Merfolk. Everyone knows that. Now: is Slivers worse as an aggro deck than Junk or Naya? Clearly, the existence of Merfolk does not invalidate those decks.

See, if we were looking at U/x Slivers, the comparison to the 'folk would be pertinent. As it is, we're talking about decks in completely different colors built to play in completely different ways. Goblins isn't worse than Merfolk in Legacy just because it has fewer lords and no Force of Will: despite both being tribal decks, the two are worlds apart when it comes to game play.

His point - that we should compare a Sliver deck to an aggro deck that already exists in those colors - is fair. Slivers doesn't necessarily have to follow the same path in Modern it took in Legacy; it can compete with different decks for different metagame niches.

EDIT: The problem with Junk Slivers is that none of the black Slivers are actually any good, with the possible exception of Necrotic Sliver. I don't know that there are enough G/W Slivers to support a creature base entirely from those, and four colors seems a mite bit greedy to me.

firebadmattgood
05-28-2013, 05:18 PM
I must be confused. I thought we were talking about a deck that wins through two drops that buff each other. If we're talking about a variation on junk that plays sinew sliver instead of goyf, then I guess I'm done here.

kaiserruhsam
05-29-2013, 04:20 PM
Sedge Sliver, (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/177.html) urborg, and Ancient whateverthehell (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/141.html) give it another lord, some shitty regeneration, and a third free 5-color land (cavern, pool, zig). Still needs evasion and protection, although you can kludge together evasion with flanking and trample.

lyracian
05-31-2013, 05:31 PM
Sedge Sliver, (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/177.html) urborg, and Ancient whateverthehell (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/141.html) give it another lord, some ***** regeneration, and a third free 5-color land (cavern, pool, zig). Still needs evasion and protection, although you can kludge together evasion with flanking and trample.
I do not really like Ancient Ziggurat in a competitive deck. I have played around with it and it just struggles when you need to cast non-creature stuff. I might run one as a 5th Cavern.

Two Sedge Sliver's seems a nice boost but other than actually wanting Swamps in play Modern Slivers just seems to be a Naya deck. It would be nice to get it to work but I am not sure it will ever be more than a fun deck.

LeaPlath
06-11-2013, 05:12 AM
Was playing around and I found a Naya Sliver shell to be the best.

It doesn't have much resilience to combo, but it can play Bolt and Path that screws over some combo decks.

Right now, In my list I'm running the fist strike sliver, flanking sliver, two headed sliver both of the lords, the reach and vigilance sliver,. This is 28 slivers.

This means the curve is only on a 1-2 mana curve, so you could play AEther vial, but extra vials in hand and no way to filter them away like in Merfolk.

In the deck I'm running I've got 22 lands, 28 slivers. Then 10 spells, which are 4 bolt, 4 path and two empty slots.

I am thinking of maybe putting in something to give my slivers hexproof, cause they kill a lord and it can quickly go down hill.

Aggro_zombies
06-11-2013, 03:18 PM
Was playing around and I found a Naya Sliver shell to be the best.

It doesn't have much resilience to combo, but it can play Bolt and Path that screws over some combo decks.

Right now, In my list I'm running the fist strike sliver, flanking sliver, two headed sliver both of the lords, the reach and vigilance sliver,. This is 28 slivers.

This means the curve is only on a 1-2 mana curve, so you could play AEther vial, but extra vials in hand and no way to filter them away like in Merfolk.

In the deck I'm running I've got 22 lands, 28 slivers. Then 10 spells, which are 4 bolt, 4 path and two empty slots.

I am thinking of maybe putting in something to give my slivers hexproof, cause they kill a lord and it can quickly go down hill.
Why the reach sliver over Spined Sliver (semi-lord) or Cautery Sliver?

Barook
06-30-2013, 12:16 PM
There's a Winged Sliver for :u: now. How does this change things?

Pinder
07-02-2013, 02:12 PM
There's a Winged Sliver for :u: now. How does this change things?

It pretty much just means that you could start running 4 of them more safely because a 1/1 flyer for U is a lot better than for 1U. Countersliver lists typically run only 3 Winged Sliver because the ability doesn't stack and it's rather terrible by itself.

I'm also interested in Syphon Sliver, myself. I used to run Essence Sliver in my board in Legacy Countersliver (Meathooks) back in the day, and getting essentially the same effect for 1 less mana is really attractive.

That said, blue and black are arguably the worst colors for Modern playable slivers. Although Cavern of Souls exists and is an obvious include in any sort of Sliver deck,as is Aether Vial so moving into 4- or 5-color in Modern may actually be doable. The biggest problem would be finding room.

Off the top of my head:

4 Striking Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Spined Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
3-4 Boros Charm
3-4 Simic Charm

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Reflecting Pool
12-14 other lands.

edit - Mirror Entity could probably make it in as maybe a 2-of if you can find room; it's 3 mana and it's only really good later when you have spare mana to pump all of your dudes (in the early game you want to be spending mana on creatures).

ActionJunkie
07-05-2013, 04:41 AM
There's a Winged Sliver for :u: now. How does this change things?

Just being a 1/1 Sliver for 1 is great and under-appreciated by those who have no experience with Slivers.

IMO, we are there for Slivers to be at least tier 1.5 and possibly tier 1. Looking forward to play-testing with them soon.

Allenthar
09-14-2013, 03:35 AM
What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as protection from removal? It's not as good as hexproof, but most decks don't want to 2-for-1 to kill a creature.

Phoenix Ignition
09-14-2013, 03:45 AM
What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as protection from removal? It's not as good as hexproof, but most decks don't want to 2-for-1 to kill a creature.

I don't think this is a viable substitution. I've taken it out of Merfolk, even, since Abrupt Decay is just too good and used too frequently. Not sure if that directly translates to Slivers, but I don't think it's worth it.

BBG|Scott-Spain
07-04-2014, 11:11 AM
Would it be uncouth to necro this thread with new additions?

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http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/59/888/635391733876007376.png

Phoenix Ignition
07-04-2014, 02:49 PM
Diffusion sliver seems like a pretty awesome pseudo Crystalline Sliver. I dunno if you want to run black, but I guess with the 5 color lands and Vials it isn't so bad. Diffusion solves a lot of problems this deck would face way better than Kira would have. Still, you don't have anything along the lines of a Silvergill Adept to reduce the impact of board wipers. I'm not sure being 5 color on a Sliver Hive manabase helps your non-creature spells either.

I think you'd want mutavaults in here as well, which makes the Sliver Hive's 2nd ability a little worse too, since they kind of do the same thing but SH's costs way more and if you get to super late game you're probably dead either way.

Mr. Safety
07-04-2014, 05:21 PM
I've tinkered with bant vial slivers, and this new kira sliver is just right for it. The white and green alows for eight lords at 2 mana, the blue one drop provides flying, and gemhide or the other new mana sliver makes for explosive plays. Add vial, some mix of path, mana leak, and bant charm and you basically have a deck.

JPoJohnson
07-04-2014, 05:27 PM
Would you ever want to include Phantasmal Image for more 'lords'?

wonderPreaux
07-04-2014, 11:08 PM
Would you ever want to include Phantasmal Image for more 'lords'?

idk know a ton about how effects stack, but could duping diffusion sliver work too?

Mr. Safety
07-05-2014, 06:54 AM
Would you ever want to include Phantasmal Image for more 'lords'?

I'm not sure it would be as good as it is in merfolk. Slivers have better quality one drops than merfolk, such as sidewinder sliver and virulent sliver. I think it has the potential to be faster, more aggressive. I'm not sure it wants tricks like image. Curving into bonescythe or essence sliver seems ok, but I think harmonic sliver is probably worth slors before image. I could very well be completely wrong on this, but I think slivers have better options in their own tribe than image.

Phoenix Ignition
07-05-2014, 12:57 PM
Duping Diffusions with Phantasmal isn't very good since they can just target him to kill him without caring if the spell gets countered afterwards. I also don't like Image as much without a Silvergill to copy, since that was often the best strategy if you know you're facing a control deck or something with board wipers. I agree that overall you'd be better off just using other slivers.

BBG|Scott-Spain
07-06-2014, 11:44 AM
I've tinkered with bant vial slivers, and this new kira sliver is just right for it. The white and green alows for eight lords at 2 mana, the blue one drop provides flying, and gemhide or the other new mana sliver makes for explosive plays. Add vial, some mix of path, mana leak, and bant charm and you basically have a deck.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Bant Slivers. We wouldn't even need Manaweft or Gemhide. The access to Harmonic makes this insane, also.

Another build I've been thinking about is an Esper or B/R Blitzkrieg-style deck that takes advantage of Leeching.

Mr. Safety
07-06-2014, 05:33 PM
I like manaweft/gemhide as a way to supplement vial. They both scale up with extra slivers...this could make for some explosive mana situations. I've done pauper slivers in g/b for gemhide and basal sliver. You tap them all for mana and then sac them for bb each, unload a big drain life. In modern bant colors I think the added big mana potential can allow curving higher for fat late game plays, maybe 2-4 of the fat slivers from m14. If there is a chance for doing some combo potential that would put it over the top. Tooth and Nail comes to mindn and maybe the bant ultimatum to make it a one turn clock.

Finn
07-15-2014, 01:00 PM
I would be a little surprised if slivers was not able to be made successfully in modern. In my view, the deck is way better with Mirror Entity because of the interaction with sliver lords. Unlike all other lords, slivers get the +1/+1 bonuses after the power and toughness is calculated for Mirror Entity. This makes Aether Vial a powerful tool for extra damage after blocks.

4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Diffusion Sliver
2 Opaline Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
4 Mirror Entity
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
4 *some sort of card draw, preferably not Lead the Stampede or anything green*
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains

I don't know enough about Modern to tune this, unfortunately. I leave that to my betters.

JPoJohnson
07-15-2014, 07:14 PM
4 *some sort of card draw, preferably not Lead the Stampede or anything green*

The new card Military Intelligence?

Phoenix Ignition
07-16-2014, 12:13 AM
The problem with any deck that's trying to win by creatures is going to be having enough disruption to shut down the turn 4 Splinter Twin or the turn 5ish Pod combos. You can't effectively race those 2 decks and without almost anything in the way of a road bump you can't stop them from killing you.

Even having 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Path, and 4 of something like Remand is tough at stopping something like Twin, and Pod regularly gets a turn 2 Birthing Pod negating all countermagic.

JPoJohnson
07-16-2014, 01:26 PM
Flooded and Windswept aren't currently modern legal either - Probably up Misty to 4 and add 2 Arid Mesa or w/e instead.

Finn
07-17-2014, 01:17 PM
Flooded and Windswept aren't currently modern legal either - Probably up Misty to 4 and add 2 Arid Mesa or w/e instead.

Right you are about the lands. Question: is there a compelling reason for an aggro deck to have any basic lands at all?

Also,

The problem with any deck that's trying to win by creatures is going to be having enough disruption to shut down the turn 4 Splinter Twin or the turn 5ish Pod combos. You can't effectively race those 2 decks and without almost anything in the way of a road bump you can't stop them from killing you.Is that so? I did not know that it was such a rat race. This is the biggest reason Slivers can't stand up in Legacy. Merfolk, generally considered to be the better version of Slivers, has disruption and utility built into some of its creatures. Every single one of the creatures in Slivers is designed to deliver damage and nothing else. That leaves precious little room for anything else.

In that case, what if we forgot the card draw for more counterspells?

Phoenix Ignition
07-17-2014, 03:06 PM
Adding countermagic will give you 2 very different games. The good kind is where you get an Aether Vial in your opening hand and you can keep mana open and tempo your opponent out, but the bad kind is where you don't get the vial and have to choose between keeping 2 mana up for a Remand/Mana Leak and putting more damage on the board. I'm pretty opposed to decks that play like that since it adds too much luck to your results, so I'd actually go with removal over countermagic.

Since Pod/Twin both need creatures to combo out (and the 3rd contender of the format, Affinity plays mostly creatures), I'd go with cheap removal. Merfolk plays the hell out of Vapor Snag which is just incredible. It doubles as saving your own slivers from removal, which is great, but generally you're not playing the attrition game against any deck so you are fine with just making them recast stuff (kind of like remand, except better since you don't need to keep mana untapped). I'd probably try to fit in 8 removal, 4 Vapor Snag + 4 Path to Exile since they'll effectively remove blockers from your path for long enough to hopefully win.

YamiJoey
07-18-2014, 03:28 AM
choose between keeping 2 mana up for a Remand/Mana Leak and putting more damage on the board. I'm pretty opposed to decks that play like that since it adds too much luck to your results

That's not how Magic works. You just need to learn how to play these decks and you'll be playing correctly, not guessing.

Merfolk has recently switched to an Aggro Disruption deck, rather than the traditional Threats + Countermagic tempo strategy we've seen out of them, using cards like Vapor Snag and a much higher volume of Creatures. With Slivers we have 2 Lords and Image, just like they do, a 2-mana pseudo counterspell Vs their 1-mana variant, and a 1-mana "your guys are unblockable" Vs their Islandwalk strategy. Seeing as all of the best decks play fliers and Islands, Merfolk has a huge win on that front as far as I'm concerned. Rest Angel is a very real threat, and they can trade Pestermites up really easily by blocking our guy, bolting the Lord and then we lose a pair of 3/3's. This is where Vapor Snag will really shine. Your opponent won't get the value from their Pestermite, leaving then spending 3-mana on a Bolt to kill a guy and still take 3. They then can't kill you on the untap. Snag seems really powerful in every game right now.

I'd prefer this list:

Creatures: 20
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Predatory Sliver

Spells: 18
4 Ęther Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Vapor Snag
4 Mana Leak
2 Remand

Lands: 22
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool

Lands are a little iffy, but it's just Meat Hooks. The only thing I want to find room for is Disrupting Shoal, and preferably without cutting anything that costs 1 (or too much). Shoal is how we power out our early threats, just like Vial. The draws with Vial/Shoal can seem awkward until you just start jamming it as UUX. Against Living End, it's a Counterspell. Woop woop! I would be a fan of cutting Green, as it's there for a single 4-of. We can handle basically any card in the format in that slot. What I'd like to do is play some Snapcaster Mages. It's half the reason most of the best decks get their free wins.

cherub_daemon
07-19-2014, 02:13 PM
The only thing I want to find room for is Disrupting Shoal, and preferably without cutting anything that costs 1 (or too much). Shoal is how we power out our early threats, just like Vial. ...
I would be a fan of cutting Green, as it's there for a single 4-of. We can handle basically any card in the format in that slot.

Already kind of discussed, but what about pulling the 4 Predatory Sliver for some split of Disrupting Shoal and Mirror Entity? Entity is "lord-adjacent", which makes him a better replacement for Predatory than your other options.

The one tricky thing about Entity over Predatory is that I think it will make Phantasmal Image worse, since it will only have Diffusion and Sinew Sliver as good targets. Opaline Sliver might be better than Entity for this reason, and the fact that it pitches to Shoal at 3, but beating someone to death with Scryb Sprites is...tedious.

This last idea is almost certainly getting too cute, but...what about keeping Predatory and ditching white, where we run Venom Sliver (new in 2015, 1G, adds deathtouch) over Path? Now your 8 5-color lands can do more of the heavy lifting and you have a little more striking power. You would probably want to add more bounce (2 Echoing Truth for 2 Phantasmal Images?) if you went that way.

Thor Hammer
07-23-2014, 03:04 PM
I have a Legacy sliver deck, and this is about as close as I can get to it under Modern regulations. The biggest difference between the two is actually the manabase, because the legacy version has more fetch lands with the non-shock version of the dual lands. Diffusion Sliver replaces Crystalline Sliver, and Opaline Sliver replaces Muscle Sliver. Also, Serum Visions replaces Brainstorm.

Main Board:
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Opaline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver

4 Aether Vial

4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
4 Serum Visions

2 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Meddling Mage
4 Disenchant
3 Detention Sphere


Mana Curve:
1 = 20
2 = 16
3 = 4

Mana Symbols:
Blue = 24
White = 12
Green = 4

JPoJohnson
07-23-2014, 03:51 PM
I think trying to build a deck for modern and basing it off of legacy will lead to poor results for you.

Example: Merfolk dropped the counter suite and goes hyper-aggro with Vapor Snag in there to muddle up the mixture and get additional damage in. They dropped counters to their sideboard.

Having said that, I think that Phantasmal Image is NOT where Slivers want to be. Far too fragile imo. I'm liking completely ditching Diffusion Sliver and sticking with regenerate with Sedge Sliver. I think that card is extremely underrated! Also, I think that Diffusion and Opaline in the same deck is a little unnecessary personally


Right you are about the lands. Question: is there a compelling reason for an aggro deck to have any basic lands at all?
If you have issues with Blood Moon coming down early in your meta.

Phoenix Ignition
07-23-2014, 04:16 PM
That's not how Magic works. You just need to learn how to play these decks and you'll be playing correctly, not guessing.


Was referencing decks that have vial and explode or don't draw vial and flounder.

I like having at least 1 basic since fetch lands can really hurt against some decks and you sometimes need that mana the turn you grab the land. Added bonus is it helps against blood moons, but I think having the ability to not shock yourself when you draw a fetchland is necessary.