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Di
11-29-2004, 09:00 PM
ATS is currently the strongest deck in the format. It has put up very impressive top8 results around the U.S., not to mention it is supported by the strongest card in the format, Survival of the Fittest.

ATS by Di, 11/29/04

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
5 Forest
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak

4 Tradewind Rider
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mystic Snake

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger

1 Masticore
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Spore Frog

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
2 Naturalize
1 Absolute Law
1 Dense Foliage
2 Choke
1 Back to Basics
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Worship
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Spike Feeder
1 Propaganda
1 Caller of the Claw

The deck, in its current form, has everything it needs to go into any matchup with positive results. Running the toolbox engine allows it to be the most flexible deck in the format. I really think we've talked about this enough though, so I'll shut up now.

Comments:
-I could only fit 3 Enlightened Tutor into the deck. If I was to run a 4th, it'd replace Brainstorm, which is the 16th blue card. I refuse to go under 16 blue, and a trio of Enlightened Tutors are working great as is.

-Manabase is the same, all with the exception of the Savannah. The Enlightened Tutor's are too damn good not to use in here, so white is used.

-With Enlightened Tutor, it's safe to run a 1-ofs of a few artifacts/enchantments, such as the huge bomb Worship(gg red), as well as another few Chokes, Dense Foliage, Silent Arbiter, Null Rod, etc.

Discuss and Enjoy.

Link to former ATS discussion. Please read before posting here. (http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=123)

Carlos El Salvador
12-06-2004, 12:53 AM
I don't believe I have seen this mentioned anyplace, but my ATS deck is slightly different. -1 Tropical Island, -1 Brainstorm +1 Sylvan Library. That cuts me down to sixty cards. Also, I have used Miscalculate twice in tournaments with very positive results (Used it in the mana leak/Stifle slots.) It countered spells when it needed to, and it was cycled when it needed to be. 15 Blue cards is fine with this deck, even with force of wills and brianstorms being seven of them. Your running survival, so if you play a turn two survival, any creature in your hand becomes blue at the cost of 1 green mana. Just a couple comments.

Slay
12-06-2004, 02:06 AM
How often have you found the cycling useful? It would seem to me that when you have the mana to cycle and do other things at the same time, you might as well just do other things with an additional two mana. It seems like a win-more card to me.
-Slay

Carlos El Salvador
12-06-2004, 02:24 AM
One instance where I found the cycling extremly useful was when I ran out of creatures in hand while setting up. Being able to dig even one card deeper might net you that creature you need to use for survival, or perhaps even a brainstorm. I just put it down as an option. I origonally put in the Miscalculates because I couldn't find any of my stronghold mana leaks, and I refuse to use non-foil 8th edition cards (White boarder=eek!) So I decided to try it out. It works nice, because it gives you options, and I have not ever countered a spell beyond turn three, except for maybe the occational board sweeping effect.

Di
12-06-2004, 10:35 AM
I don't believe I have seen this mentioned anyplace, but my ATS deck is slightly different. -1 Tropical Island, -1 Brainstorm +1 Sylvan Library. That cuts me down to sixty cards

Why exactly would you cut a land? And a Tropical Island at that. The deck's manabase is extremely tight in it's current state, and removing any lands can be disasterous considering you also removed a Brainstorm. I really don't see any need for Sylvan Library in the deck anymore. If you draw into Enlightened Tutor and you don't actually want them(thus you have a Survival in play), there is no need for Sylvan Library.

Miscalculation is interesting, but Mana Leak really soars over it. The one mana doesn't seem like much, but in most cases it's absolutely huge. I'm not sure how strong the cycling really is, so I'll give it a shot, but the fact that I replace an already weak counter with an even weaker one is really leaning against me.

Carlos El Salvador
12-06-2004, 01:24 PM
Why exactly would you cut a land? And a Tropical Island at that. The deck's manabase is extremely tight in it's current state, and removing any lands can be disasterous considering you also removed a Brainstorm. I really don't see any need for Sylvan Library in the deck anymore. If you draw into Enlightened Tutor and you don't actually want them(thus you have a Survival in play), there is no need for Sylvan Library.

Miscalculation is interesting, but Mana Leak really soars over it. The one mana doesn't seem like much, but in most cases it's absolutely huge. I'm not sure how strong the cycling really is, so I'll give it a shot, but the fact that I replace an already weak counter with an even weaker one is really leaning against me.
@ The land thing:

To put it quite frank, As I am good at, I flood too often in the middle game with 18 lands in a 61 card deck. I know this sounds ludicrus, but I hate it when I am drawing land every turn due to the fact that a lot of the good stuff is out or in the graveyard. ATS is a very aggresive deck for mulliganing in the first place. To each his own. The reason it was a tropical island is because with 13 blue sources, it hasn't been incredably difficult to get the blue mana when you need it, especially when you conciter that you really only need blue around turns 3-5.

@ Miscalculate: Yeah, Like I said, they are just temporary replacements. It's nice to cycle when you have a part of the lock, but just need one or two more creatures to fully lock down without the survival in play and when you need it.

BoTS
12-20-2004, 05:29 PM
As far as the main deck goes, I think the list is/is close to an optimized build. However, the sideboard is a different story. I have been running with the silver bullets strategy in the sideboard, with the only multiples being Choke's and Naturalize's. But with the diminishing power of control, I have cut the Choke count to 1 and made room for 4 copies of Tranquil Doman's, my reasoning for this being that, at least in my metagame, I consider my only unfavorable matchups being solidarity and enchantress. I have also been testing out techy, and often janky silver bullets such as Living Lands and Kamahl with very unimpressive results. Also, I have been trying to find some "good" tech against Solidarity, also with unimpressive results. They usually respond to Blessing by either casting another Brain Freeze, or by just Stroke'ing me out in response. Stifle stops one Brain Freeze, but when they cast BF two and three I scoop it up. I really think the Blessing is the former of the two choices is the only option, seeing as how it doesn't usually beat them but if they can't play around it, there is a good chance that I will win.

Di
12-20-2004, 09:38 PM
As far as the main deck goes, I think the list is/is close to an optimized build. However, the sideboard is a different story. I have been running with the silver bullets strategy in the sideboard, with the only multiples being Choke's and Naturalize's. But with the diminishing power of control, I have cut the Choke count to 1 and made room for 4 copies of Tranquil Doman's, my reasoning for this being that, at least in my metagame, I consider my only unfavorable matchups being solidarity and enchantress. I have also been testing out techy, and often janky silver bullets such as Living Lands and Kamahl with very unimpressive results. Also, I have been trying to find some "good" tech against Solidarity, also with unimpressive results. They usually respond to Blessing by either casting another Brain Freeze, or by just Stroke'ing me out in response. Stifle stops one Brain Freeze, but when they cast BF two and three I scoop it up. I really think the Blessing is the former of the two choices is the only option, seeing as how it doesn't usually beat them but if they can't play around it, there is a good chance that I will win.

I've been shaky about the sideboard as well. For the most part, I'm not satisfied with Propoganda's slot. Although it's strong in matchups such as Goblins or R/G Survival, forcing them to make difficult choices, it's generally regarded as a weak option against those decks, as they can handle them with ease. I've debated running a second Silent Arbiter or Peacekeeper, which to tell you the truth is really appealing, although it's fragility may prove to make it a poor choice.

As for Solidarity, which is a rather popular deck in Syracuse with roughly 4-5 people playing the deck not including myself, I've gone with Arcane Lab again, which was originally in the sideboard as an anti-FCG target, but it does it's job in here as long as it can be protected long enough for Tradewind to hit the table to clear out lands. Another option, albeit rather stretching a bit, is Chains of Mephistopheles. The card absolutely destroys Solidarity, turning their draw into extreme disadvantage. It's really tough when going into foils for stopping the deck unfortunately, because it has the ability to respond to everything, making cards like Scald and Price of Glory uneffective. If someone can finally find a suitable answer to that madness, please spill it.

BoTS
12-20-2004, 09:57 PM
I was also rather dissatisfied with Propaganda, and I actually cut it after the Lotus tourney, largely due to the fact that it wasn't very effective versus any of the aggro decks I played against that day. Peacekeeper is an interesting choice, but as you said, the toughness of one makes it way too vulnerable against the matchups where it matters.

Di
12-21-2004, 03:40 PM
I was also rather dissatisfied with Propaganda, and I actually cut it after the Lotus tourney, largely due to the fact that it wasn't very effective versus any of the aggro decks I played against that day. Peacekeeper is an interesting choice, but as you said, the toughness of one makes it way too vulnerable against the matchups where it matters.

True, but in matchups that it'd be boarded in against, most namely R/G Survival and Goblins, it can be protected with Absolute Law or Dense Foliage. Also, another card I forgot to mention earlier in regards to the Propoganda slot was Dawnstrider. It may need haste to be what you want, but it saves a bit of mana.

For reference:

Dawnstrider 1G
Creature - Spellshaper
G, tap, Discard a card from your hand: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
1/1

Still fragile, and similiar to Peacekeeper, bit it's in the main color.

Ray D 3
12-28-2004, 01:47 PM
I can't see why you wouldn't just add CoP:Red.

It will do wonders vs. Goblin Sligh, and even R/G Survival.
It can stall for enough time to drop the Worship that ends the game against R/G, and it just flat out beats Goblin Sligh.

Arcane Lab seems quite good against solidarity to me. Since when can ATS not counter 1 bounce spell a turn.


Edit: Arcane Lab not Propaganda (Must not be getting enough sleep again. My appologies :D ).

l_neiman
12-28-2004, 02:02 PM
Ray D 3: I think you meant Arcane Lab or Rule of Law, rather than Propaganda, am I right?

quicksilver
12-28-2004, 04:08 PM
I can't see why you wouldn't just add CoP:Red.

It will do wonders vs. Goblin Sligh, and even R/G Survival.
It can stall for enough time to drop the Worship that ends the game against R/G, and it just flat out beats Goblin Sligh.

I don't know about ending the game against R/G Survival. Post board R/G Survival brings in at least 4 naturalizes, plus it has a good chance of keeping ATS's creatures off the board with sharpshooter and FTKs. Although sometimes it may win the game, it is far from being always game over. COP read only stops one creature in the whole deck, I wouldn't side it in, I just don't think it is powerful enough in that matchup.

As for the mono red matchup the COP could work fine, but I don't know about you but I've seen very little mono red in the format, so I don't think that would justify COP:red. But if you run into it and it is beating you then I guess the COP would be a fine choice.

BoTS
12-28-2004, 06:45 PM
can't see why you wouldn't just add CoP:Red.

It will do wonders vs. Goblin Sligh, and even R/G Survival.
It can stall for enough time to drop the Worship that ends the game against R/G, and it just flat out beats Goblin Sligh.


I'm assuming that you've never actually tested CoP:Red against those matchups, have you? If you have, you will have found that CoP and Survival decks have about 0 synergy whatsoever. ATS is pretty much tapping out every turn to dset up the board and counter threats, often leaving less than two mana available to do other things. CoP is really only good if you have enough mana to prevent every single threat they have, and with Goblin Sligh that is often four to five creatures + burn. The deck can't afford to use CoP every turn, even with a Rofellos out, which is why it generally runs Absolute Law + Worship in the sideboard.

superfly
12-28-2004, 08:44 PM
Any smart red deck player , will have Anarchy is his sideboard or be able to Burning Wish for it. That pretty much takes care of Worship and COP's. But what do i know? I rarely play Red decks. Just a thought.

Sims
12-28-2004, 09:27 PM
Any smart red deck player , will have Anarchy is his sideboard or be able to Burning Wish for it. That pretty much takes care of Worship and COP's.
This logic is flawed. Speaking from experience on the red decks I have piloted and seen lately, Sligh/Burn decks only run Anarchy if they are expecting White Weenie or Angel Stompy and the like. I gaurantee if they have a feeling there will be 0-2 White decks they will not waste valuable sideboard slots devoted to Anarchy that could be better used to help other matchups. Hence, the Anarchy Theory doesn't exactly hold up for this. (Note: As an aside, these decks also tend to run slim amounts of mana sources and any land past 3 gets tossed or sacced to Fireblast, so reaching Anarchy mana is not always a reliable option.)

Goblin Sligh style decks have mostly transformed to R/w decks, with sideboard options such as Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing. Why run the very narrow Anarchy when you could run the Survival hosing Disenchant/Seal and hit Worship, CoP, Vedalken Shackles, Chalice, Chill, etc. with the splash damage.

So, the only decks that I can think of that are supported by your "Smart Red Player" theory doesn't really stand up too well. The only decks I can think of that would actually run Anarchy are:

A.) Yet to be developed B.Wish toolbox varients (I have seen no decks of this design style yet.)
B.) Mono-R Goblin Sligh
C.) RDW varients

And even then, as said, I wouldn't waste slots on Anarchy unless I knew ahead of time that the metagame would consist of multiple White decks (WWW, Angel Stompy, etc.) No offense intended, but the smart red players will likely be running more flexible slots instead of devoting them to Anarchy for just Worship/CoP:R in ATS.

Di
12-28-2004, 09:29 PM
Any smart red deck player , will have Anarchy is his sideboard or be able to Burning Wish for it. That pretty much takes care of Worship and COP's. But what do i know? I rarely play Red decks. Just a thought.

I don't think it's worth adding a four mana sorcery to stop all but two cards in a deck. And even if it mattered that much, the ATS player has enough counter to stop Anarchy if they have to for some reason.

Also, Cop:Red not only has terrible synergy with Survival, but it doesn't stop Ravenous Baloth, which is another playset of creatures hitting my face.


Arcane Lab seems quite good against solidarity to me. Since when can ATS not counter 1 bounce spell a turn.


Edit: Arcane Lab not Propaganda (Must not be getting enough sleep again. My appologies

Arcane Lab is the best thing the deck has within its colors. It's currently in my sideboard now because there are a lot of Solidarity players in Syracuse(currently like 4-5, which is a lot for a deck that dumb).

SpikeyMikey
12-31-2004, 04:59 AM
Any smart red deck player , will have Anarchy is his sideboard or be able to Burning Wish for it. That pretty much takes care of Worship and COP's.
This logic is flawed. Speaking from experience on the red decks I have piloted and seen lately, Sligh/Burn decks only run Anarchy if they are expecting White Weenie or Angel Stompy and the like. I gaurantee if they have a feeling there will be 0-2 White decks they will not waste valuable sideboard slots devoted to Anarchy that could be better used to help other matchups. Hence, the Anarchy Theory doesn't exactly hold up for this. (Note: As an aside, these decks also tend to run slim amounts of mana sources and any land past 3 gets tossed or sacced to Fireblast, so reaching Anarchy mana is not always a reliable option.)

Goblin Sligh style decks have mostly transformed to R/w decks, with sideboard options such as Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing. Why run the very narrow Anarchy when you could run the Survival hosing Disenchant/Seal and hit Worship, CoP, Vedalken Shackles, Chalice, Chill, etc. with the splash damage.

So, the only decks that I can think of that are supported by your "Smart Red Player" theory doesn't really stand up too well. The only decks I can think of that would actually run Anarchy are:

A.) Yet to be developed B.Wish toolbox varients (I have seen no decks of this design style yet.)
B.) Mono-R Goblin Sligh
C.) RDW varients

And even then, as said, I wouldn't waste slots on Anarchy unless I knew ahead of time that the metagame would consist of multiple White decks (WWW, Angel Stompy, etc.) No offense intended, but the smart red players will likely be running more flexible slots instead of devoting them to Anarchy for just Worship/CoP:R in ATS.
I've been playing Sligh for three years now between T1 and 1.5, and I can count the number of times that my board hasn't contained 3 Anarchy on one hand. Yes, there are a lot of times that you won't see a matchup requiring them. The thing is, when you do see one, you'll lose without it. So you have:

1. Have it and not need it.
2. Need it and not have it.

How'd that old saying go again? A well built Sligh needs very few things in board, simply because generally, it's fast enough to run over just about anything without the addition of board cards and also because if you're going to run a board card in a deck that seeks to win in 5 turns with disruption that has no draw, it'd better have a wide reaching and fucking amazing ability. There's only 3 real categories of standard board cards for mono-red, and those are anti-white cards (Sulfuric Vortex, Anarchy), anti-blue cards (Scald, BEB) and anti-nonbasic cards(PoP[if it's not MD], Blood Moon). Then there are a few matchup specific cards (Tormod's Crypt, Disenchant, Rack and Ruin) that generally round out the board. Of course, half the reason that nobody respects red is because half the people that play it don't know the first thing about building Sligh.

Peter_Rotten
12-31-2004, 09:47 AM
Move on. We are discussing Sligh more than ATS. Go to the Sligh/Burn thread for discussion about Sligh's SB choices.

superfly
01-06-2005, 02:23 AM
I may be out of line, but it seems as though all of you ATS lovers are afraid of Humility. If you guys truly believe that ATS is the top deck (which I don't dispute that it IS a top contender), then maybe you NEED to listen to what people have to say about Humility decks, because a deck like that wrecks you. I just figured it may be good discussion, as far as what an ATS deck can/should do about a Humility deck. Humility decks WILL be out there. You can bank on it. Again, not trying to be out of line, but I seriously think Humility decks are a MAJOR threat to ATS, and we should be discussing ways to deal with it which is why I posted my build of Humility. Thank you.

Discuss issues w/moderation via PM please.

-braves54321



Edited By braves54321 on 1105018374

BoTS
01-06-2005, 03:54 AM
Anyway, Humility is indeed a threat to ATS. But it is not as if the deck has no way to deal with it. Between 4x Force of Will in the main and X Naturalize/Seal of Cleansing in the board, the deck doesn't just roll over and die to the pesky enchantment.

CavernNinja
01-06-2005, 12:40 PM
Yes, Humility is strong, and it is a very good answer to Survival based decks, however, every deck in a healthy has a foil. White-based control has always been good against creatures and this format happens to be full of them. But the existence of such a deck by no means results in the abolishment of ATS or any of the other Survival decks, it simply means that they need to keep it in mind for their side board.

superfly
01-06-2005, 10:33 PM
Irrelevant post deleted. Stay on topic before we must restrict your use of the LMF. You set a new record - five different members reported or complained about your post!

Be sure to read the rules for the Legacy Metagame Forum (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=625) and the general rules (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) before posting again.

Peter_Rotten

ottozoell
01-18-2005, 10:59 PM
I have been trying out a few new things, I really like one seal of cleansing main (instead of the lyrist, to combat Humility). I am still curious if Fire/Ice could be added to the mainboard instead of Mana Leak (2 forests change to taiga).

Are the extra counters necessary? In an aggro metagame would the fire/ice be good enough to warrant inclusion?

Let me know what you guys think.

Spelling and grammar cleaned up. Please read the rules of the LMF here (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=625) before posting, specifically this rule:


3. Rules about grammar. We expect you to capitalize proper nouns and the personal pronoun "I." We expect you to use punctuation correctly and to avoid run-on sentences. A basic spelling ability is required. Our attitude is only slightly more forgiving towards members who speak English as a second language.


-braves54321



Edited By braves54321 on 1106104292

Di
01-18-2005, 11:27 PM
I have been trying out a few new things, I really like one seal of cleansing main (instead of the lyrist, to combat Humility). I am still curious if Fire/Ice could be added to the mainboard instead of Mana Leak (2 forests change to taiga).

Are the extra counters necessary? In an aggro metagame would the fire/ice be good enough to warrant inclusion?

Let me know what you guys think.

First off, Kami of Ancient Law is run over Elvish Lyrist, because it's much better. Seal of Cleansing is a fine choice, but not worthy of a maindeck slot. If you aren't facing Humility, it could likely be a dead draw. I'd much rather have a creature in that slot that could be Survivaled away, or possibly use it as a blocker. I will agree that it's a strong sideboard choice, but I like Naturalize just as much thanks to its instant speed.

Why use Fire/Ice over creatures that kill things, while at the same time can be tutored for? If you're worried about aggro, run an additional Sharpshooter maindeck or something, or even Flametongue Kavu. I wouldn't recommend this either way, though, because Mana Leak is an extremely strong early play in matchups that will need a good early game, such as against RG Survival, the mirror, Belcher, or possibly something like control countering a turn 4-6 Wrath of God.

BoTS
01-19-2005, 02:57 AM
I've been running Mana Leak's for a while now, but with the rise of decks containing Sundering Titan, Goblin Charbelcher, and other pesky cards with pesky triggered/activated abilities I have seriously considered putting the Stifles back in the deck. There is almost always Weldsur, U/R Wildfire, Solidarity, Rock, and Belcher present at my weekly 1.5 tournaments, making Stifle seem a lot stronger than it was in early September. They might not even need to go in the maindeck, but I really think that Stifle is gaining power due to the growing popularity of combo and other such decks.

Anusien
01-19-2005, 03:59 PM
Anyone tested Submerge to see how it is versus ATS, either in the mirror or with one of the Blue-based control decks (WUBS, BBS) versus the green Survival variants, this one especially? ATS seems like in most cases it's a race to set up and win, especially in the mirror. Submerge feels like it would be good tempo disruption, costing them a Survival activation, especially in the first few turns. You'd bounce the creature in response to a Survival activation because it would get shuffled away, and they'd have to burn that Survival to dig it out. I know the deck is tight on slots, and I can't see what it would replace, but it feels like good tech.

DavidHernandez
01-26-2005, 11:55 AM
Sorry to post a one-liner, but Di: the list for ATS (located on page 1) is from November. What does the new list look like? I'm concerned that the discussion may be focused on a list that is obsolete.

Dave.

Di
01-26-2005, 02:34 PM
Heh, not exactly. In general, Survival decks are so tight that lists, at least the maindecks, don't often change. The only change I've been working on for the past couple months is trying to fit in Goblin Sharpshooter into the maindeck, but it's been extremely hard. I'm running 61 cards right now, because that's how things ended up after Enlightened Tutor was added into the deck. That's how difficult it is to pull cards out of the maindeck, having to go up to 61. I won't remove any blue cards from the maindeck because I refuse to go below 16(currently at 16). I finally came to the conclusion though that if I want to add Goblin Sharpshooter maindeck that I have three choices: The first being remove Uktabi Orangutan and Kami of Ancient Law and use Viridian Zealot. I hate Zealot in this deck, and decided I'm not going to invest a total of five mana(survival for it, then cast/sac it) to kill another Survival or something like that, because that's extremely slow for the deck and forces it to slow the deck at least a turn down. The other option was to remove something that is more geared towards aggro. The cards we have against aggro are Masticore, Spore Frog, and Wall of Roots, with in my list, currently runs three copies. There's no way in hell I'd ever remove the Core or Frog from the deck, so the best option for this choice would be removing the 3rd Wall of Roots. I've tested this, and I haven't seen a drastic change in the manabase, while I've seen a bit of an improvement in the aggro game, but I'm still skeptic about making this change permanent as I don't want the removal of a mana source to affect the manabase too drastically. The final choice the deck has is to just add Goblin Sharpshooter without removing anything, and going to 62 cards. This is the least appealing choice, for obvious reasons, but I've tested this and it hasn't made the deck really less consistant. More testing with both choice #2 and choice #3 will prove what I want to do.

However, either way, Sharpshooter will be moved to the maindeck, which means the sideboard will change yet again. Here's my current sideboard(most of it is the same, but a few slots have changed):

2 Null Rod
2 Choke
1 Back to Basics
2 Naturalize
1 Worship
1 Mana Breach(Solidarity)
1 Dawnstrider
1 Absolute Law
1 Dense Foliage
1 Spike Feeder
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Meta dependant slot(Compost, Serenity, Sacred Ground, another Sharpshooter, etc) I'm currently using Fecundity in this slot.

The only new cards here are Dawnstrider and Mana Breach, as well as the final slot which is whatever reflects your environment. Dawnstrider I've found to be insane, and have debated moving it to the maindeck over Spore Frog. It doesn't go to the graveyard, which means you save a handful of mana, and only requires you to pitch Squee every turn. It also avoids Tormod's Crypt, Ground Seal, and Honor the Fallen. The other new card, Mana Breach, was suprisingly brought to me by Mike Glow. He presented it to me when I ran Arcane Lab, and I've found this to be much better. Lately, the final slot for me has been Fecundity. I'm suprised I never added this before. I originally though Caller of the Claw was *the* anti-WoG solution, getting you a handful of men to smash with, but Fecundity just lets you draw almost a completely new hand so you don't have to start up with Genesis. The card is really meta dependant though, and once Amrod's comes around the corner again, it is likely to change into Compost or Serenity.

BoTS
01-26-2005, 04:50 PM
I personally cut an E. Tutor for the maindeck Sharpshooter. I'm still not positive that this is the best solution, but In my Aggro/Survival heavy meta I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter is absolutely necessary in the deck.

Di
01-26-2005, 07:38 PM
I personally cut an E. Tutor for the maindeck Sharpshooter. I'm still not positive that this is the best solution, but In my Aggro/Survival heavy meta I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter is absolutely necessary in the deck.


That was actually the first card I took out for Shooter before I debated everything else. However, I decided it was the wrong play, because that's one less Survival you have maindeck, in addition to decreasing your chances of getting the silver bullet enchantments.

Bryant Cook
01-26-2005, 07:50 PM
I agree with the 62 card choice, seeing as I did it before you :p . I don't think dawnstrider should be maindecked, sporefrog doesn't die against a FTK, like dawnstrider. Also think about it your making genesis less useful, and ATS doesn't really have room for dead cards.

Di
01-26-2005, 08:25 PM
I agree with the 62 card choice, seeing as I did it before you . I don't think dawnstrider should be maindecked, sporefrog doesn't die against a FTK, like dawnstrider. Also think about it your making genesis less useful, and ATS doesn't really have room for dead cards.


First off, when we discussed the 62 card deck, I informed you that I tried it as well :)

Second, you must be thinking that I'm siding Frog out for Dawnstrider, but in these cases they will both be in the deck. Genesis doesn't rely on Spore Frog for use, it just so happens that Frog is interacting with it the most out of creatures in the deck. Generally in those matchups it's only used for Frog, and it can slow you down a bit, but in these scenarios using Dawnstrider saves mana to cast business spells. Also, FTK would only be a real bother for Dawnstrider if I can't give it haste. Otherwise, I'll end up paying six mana the following turn if I want it back, and then a single mana from then on.

I then just realized that you must also be thinking Dawnstrider is in the maindeck, which it isn't.

Bryant Cook
01-26-2005, 08:49 PM
Dawnstrider I've found to be insane, and have debated moving it to the maindeck over Spore Frog.
That's what I was referring to... I wasn't trying to say genesis is dead without frog even though it looked like it. I was just trying to say it's taking away another purpose or use of genesis.

Efreet
02-06-2005, 02:52 PM
i see this topic is static, so i have a question for those that really play the deck: in a metagame with lots of landstill or "keeper-style" deck how can this deck win? this is my case in italy and we can't go over the wall of counter, and even if we do they have always a seal of cleansing or a disenchant.. this is my problem, i hope in your help :)

DaveOath
02-07-2005, 01:19 PM
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner could replace the Dense Foliage in the sideboard.

It's "fetchable" with the Survival of the Fittest, it protect your creature from spell AND abilities.

The effect is also asymmetrical, your opponent does not benefit from it.

Di
02-07-2005, 01:58 PM
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner could replace the Dense Foliage in the sideboard.

It's "fetchable" with the Survival of the Fittest, it protect your creature from spell AND abilities.

The effect is also asymmetrical, your opponent does not benefit from it.

I've done a lot of work with Kira, and it's a fine choice, but it's not going to be added to this deck for a couple reasons. The first being it's UU in the casting cost. That can be really annoying to do in situations that you need it. I'm not saying getting UU is necessarily difficult, it's just a stretch to cast over Dense Foliage. The second reason is that Kira only affects creatures you control. This means the opponents can feel free to play all the Rancor, Berserks, and whatever else the opponent might play on their own creatures as they want. Although that doesn't apply to many decks, the most common being Garv.deq, it's still a threat, and Dense Foliage stops it cold. Plus, remember Foliage can still be grabbed by Enlightened Tutor, so it's not a random card you have to draw.

Besides, it's not like the opponent was benefitting from Dense Foliage to begin with, because they can still be targetted by abilities.

Efreet
02-11-2005, 01:52 PM
why doesn't anybody gave me an answer to my question? [glare]

Before posting in the LMF, read the rules. We want this forum, you know, "good", so do what you can to make your posts worthwhile, not retarded. Thanks. -Di

CavernNinja
02-11-2005, 04:25 PM
The answer is that ATS has a very hard time against control, preboard you have to through must counters or atleast cards that look like must-counters at your opponent until you can get a Survival in play. Once you have a Survival make sure that your first tutor goes for Genesis then for E.Witness for protection and you should be able to win. Second game you bring in Choke so that you have more must-counters and a better chance of getting your stuff to resolve.

Ray D 3
02-21-2005, 10:12 PM
I think Mana Leak is a tad weak in this deck, and I believe there is a better choice in Annul.

It stops:

Humility
Survival of the Fittest
Pernicious Deed
Nevinyrral's Disk
Vedalken Shackles
Goblin Charbelcher
etc.

It costs only 1 mana, and has a use against just about every deck in the metagame.

...just my 2 cents.

Di
02-21-2005, 11:47 PM
Annul has a use against a decent portion of the metagame, but stronger than Mana Leak? Hell no. Annul is extremely limited to what it counters. It doesn't fight in counter wars, won't counter Wrath of God or any creature that threatens you, whether it be Goblin Sharpshooter, Exalted Angel, Psychatog. It won't stop Transmute Artifact, Fact or Fiction, Naturalize, Burning Wish, or any other good card in this format, right?

I've made my point.

Ray D 3
02-22-2005, 03:01 AM
"...or any other good card in this format, right?"
Wow was that a bold statement.

It may not stop the 'good' cards, but it does exactly what the original stifles did. It stops cards that are problematic, and it does so at the cost of one single mana, which is pretty damn good in such a mana hungry deck. Paying 1 more than you have to can set you back a full turn.

Btw, your statement implies that SotF, Humility, Pernicious Deed, etc. are not good cards.

Di
02-22-2005, 12:26 PM
Ok, lemme rephrase that. "Any other good non-artifact/enchantment card." Happy? Not every deck plays cards such as Humility and Pernicious Deed. In fact, there aren't many at all, just Hulk, the Rock, Enchantress, Mono-white(which hasn't ever seen play afaik) and in some builds of U/W. Those aren't the most popular of deck choices, are they?

Stifles maindeck inclusion was solely based on Goblin Recruiter. It gave the deck fits, and Stifle stopped them. Stifle was also replaced by Mana Leak after the shift not only because Recruiter was banned, but because Leak is a lot better against everything else. If you look in the last ATS thread before we started a new one, you'd notice I gave Annul a chance before I went to Leak, but then came to the conclusion that Leak is strong against the entire field, and then also deals with everything Annul would.

Ray D 3
02-22-2005, 12:54 PM
I understand what you are saying, but there are only two decks in the current LMF that annul is useless against (U/G Madness and Solidarity), and it is a better solution to this deck's worst enemy (Humility) than Mana Leak is. The fact that it costs 1 mana and stops a large number of problematic cards w/o giving the opponent the option of paying 3, is what makes it good imo.

True Mana Leak hits alot of things that annul doesn't, but this deck doesn't need such a reactive card, and I can't see why it is in the deck to begin with. You've been thinking of bringing the deck to 62 cards, so why not cut the Leaks all together, and I do realize that would drop the blue card count to 14, but Dragon seemed to use it just fine with only 14 blue cards in old 1.5. I also realize that Dragon only needed to use it once, but ATS shouldn't need to use it too many times either, and worse comes to worse it can just fetch a blue creature it doesn't need and pitch it.

oath boy
02-23-2005, 08:23 PM
Wow i pretty much read the first page only, but lets clear something up. Mana Leak > Miscalculate. 4 Brainstorm and 4 Trops. > Sylvan Library. You must have 4 trops, end of story. By the way... WW with armegeddon can smack this deck sometimes. There are other decks that are hard to get around, and 1 card ive been thinkin about play testing is 1 Meddling Mage... if you name swords to plowshares or armegeddon you can beat WW. name high tide agaist reset.dec (if you have to play against this deck.. they get bounce spells and 1 arcance lab is enough in the beginning but they will bounce it.. get em both out and you win pretty much). There are so many possibilities and you can bounce it to your hand with tradewind rider late game just to make sure you can win. Another thing i like, but i definitely do not think should go in the deck unless you are missing cards is living wish. i think thats all i have for now, my screen name is vindicate347 on AIM if anyone wants to talk bout this deck n such. oh, and im leavin with this simley cuz it makes me laugh :blues:

do run leaks, imo, btw. Answer to humility: monk realist... although i run kami of ancient law, no one here that i have seen plays humility. if its that big of a problem, run leaks and realist. Trust me.. you dont really want annuls, there is better stuff, which makes ATS what it is really made to do: win.

Evil Roopey
02-23-2005, 11:16 PM
@ oath boy:
I really don't know how you intend to kill a Humility with a Realist or even a Kami considering they both don't have any abilities. Actually IMO Annul would be the best answer for Humility, but I'm not sure its the best card for this deck, and I really wouldn't know I have done 0 testing with Annul.

So as of right now, Oath Boy needs to think before he talks and Mana Leak > Annul.

Peace yall,
Roop

steveIam
02-23-2005, 11:24 PM
I think Mana Leak is a tad weak in this deck, and I believe there is a better choice in Annul.
Annul won't stop a Wrath of God or be able to force through an important creature or survival that needs to hit play if playing against control. I'm sure that the one extra mana on mana leak is worth it to be able to stop a lot more gamebreaking spells from being played.

EDIT: Wow, I take a while to post and five people reply to the post before I get to and make me look like a silly person because I'm restating whats already been said. Sheesh.

oath boy
02-23-2005, 11:51 PM
Yeah, let's see, considering I was the one saying Mana Leak WAS better and that Annul was worse.. I don't know how that came across, but Mana Leak is so 10x better... also.. realistic.. hm, yeah, let's see... I think that 1) I pointed out if Humility is famous to see play in your parts, then do not play Kami, but play Realist, because Realist does kill Humility... thats why I say kill it with Realist, and you have Mana Leak and FoW backup... but yeah I'm pretty sure Realist owns Humility in the face because comes into play abilities are applied to the stack before Humility I believe...

And just to restate it, AGAIN for reference: Mana Leak > Miscalculation and Mana Leak > Annul... always

Text cleaned, and that took a while.

Please read the LMF posting policy before posting in here, because we don't want grammatical disasters in this forum. -Di

Peter_Rotten
02-24-2005, 12:05 AM
Oh boy, Humility headaches again. From Crystal Keep


Does remove abilities from a creature entering play before any "comes into play" abilities can trigger. [D'Angelo 1999/06/01]


The final word is Humility > every creature. Even Monk Realist"ic."

BoTS
02-24-2005, 01:43 AM
If Humility is that big of a deal in your meta, you can always try to find room for a maindeck Seal of Cleansing, although I wouldn't recommend this unless something like 35-40% or more of the field is packing maindeck Humility as it requires you to cut a utility creature.

Also, trust me from personal experience when I say that Mana Leak is golden. Sure, Annul hits Humility, Survival, and Deed for one less, but the one extra mana to say no to Goblin Sharpshooter, WoG, and other such problematic cards that own your team is well worth the generic mana.



Edited By BoTS on 1109223834

oath boy
02-24-2005, 05:11 PM
Whats this deck do against WW and other beatdown decks such as stompy... im arguing with a guy this deck can take em on, especially stompy because stompy has nothing to do to stop spore frog at end of turn, that im aware of. WW has swords and armageddon... lol blues guy is funny :blues:

and what do people think of running 1 meddling mage?
and is 18 land even enough... thats less than 2 lands per draw even if you get birds and such.. always think that they will be able to destroy it

Ewokslayer
02-24-2005, 05:22 PM
WW has a slow as ass clock, and ATS has a Rofellos-Ranger charged Masticore to sweep the board of weenies. As for Armageddon, ATS runs 7 Counterspells, 1 of which can be searched for. Plus if you really fear the geddon you have Sacred Ground out of the board.

oath boy
02-24-2005, 05:29 PM
Ok, and what about phyrexian furnace and tormods crypt?

Ok, this is the second time I've said this. Read the LMF rules before posting in them. We don't need our time being wasted with posts like this. Warned. -Di

Who warned me and how do i send a PM to them

kimberley
02-25-2005, 01:44 AM
I read the rules and I hope that my post does not violate them (and my english is not too bad).

My current version (evolved in a meta i consider pretty much normal with a little lack of combo) in difference to Diablos' MD (page #1):
MD
-Elvish Lyrist +Monk Realist
-Forest +Goblin Sharpshooter

I very much liked the Realist despite his need for W, mainly cause he does not need Haste. I found myself often left without the Taiga and an urgend need to destroy a Parallax Wave or Pernicious Deed (or odd things like Serenity) this turn and not the next one. On the other hand I never wanted to use the Realist and didn't have the white mana.
The reasons to add the Sharpshooter to the MD are obvious and i liked none of the three options. So i sat for hours calculating possibilities of hand sizes, enemy destroying first land, Ranger, Bird, enemy having Stifle, me drawing a land as 8th or 9th card, when the first land is a fetchland and i used it, if it is not or i did not use it yet...and finally I got a headdache and simply played with one land less than before. And it worked fine for me.
I felt that hands with three or four lands were ruining my games as often as bad hands with one land. Actually i don't want that Forest back at all.

I don't expect you to be interested in this but i wanted to show some effort cause the actual reason for my post is: I need advice.

I have to play a tournament in an weird extreme aggrometa soon. I expect lots of Sui, Zoo, Sligh, Pox, Rock, random burn and random red, green or black beats with a huge ammount of targeted creature removal and annoying things like Cursed Scroll, SoFI, maindeck Contagion etc.

1. Is it possible (and profitable) to run Misdirection in the place of ManaLeak/Annul/Stifle?
Of course i've tested it, but maybe due to my lack of self-esteem i cannot reach a decision.
2. I would like to use a SB like:
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>2 Null Rod
2 Naturalize
1 Choke
1 Back to Basics
1 Worship
1 Absolute Law
1 Dense Foliage
1 Dawnstrider
1 Spike Feeder
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Meddling Mage
1 True Believer
1 Gorilla Shaman</span>
The Believer is the only thing (except more Naturalize against Planar Void) i could think of to improve my matchup against Sui and similar. And i used him against some other decks too. Obviously it is no good replacement for Mana Breach and the double W is difficult to handle...
The Monkey is a paranoid choice against Cursed Scrolls which often ruin me when they show up repeatedly in the early game.
The Meddling Mage has turned out to be so very useful in various matchups that i consider to cut another forest to fit him in the MD and add Propaganda to the SB again.
I tested all this too, but reached a state of being not able to decide anything at all. I would like to hear the thoughts of some experienced players about this very much.

I hope all this is not considered totally useless by you and the administration.


Edit:
The mentioned tournament was much less filled with aggro than i expected.
I had gone totally nuts and cut a second forest to fit Meddling Mage in the MD. And...well...it worked. I never had severe problems with dropping enough lands. I had to use perhabs one single additional mulligan the whole day, but made use of Sharpshooter and Meddling Mage in first games a lot.

oath boy
02-25-2005, 05:28 PM
-Elvish Lyrist +Monk Realist
-Forest +Goblin Sharpshooter

1. Is it possible (and profitable) to run Misdirection in the place of ManaLeak/Annul/Stifle?
Of course i've tested it, but maybe due to my lack of self-esteem i cannot reach a decision.
2. I would like to use a SB like:
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>2 Null Rod <-- maybe +1
2 Naturalize
1 Choke <-- +1
1 Back to Basics <-- +1
1 Worship
1 Absolute Law
1 Dense Foliage
1 Dawnstrider <-- cut IMO
1 Spike Feeder <-- Baloth a better pick?
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Meddling Mage <-- try to fit MB IMO
1 True Believer <-- dont need?
1 Gorilla Shaman</span> <-- dont need?
The Believer is the only thing (except more Naturalize against Planar Void) i could think of to improve my matchup against Sui and similar. And i used him against some other decks too. Obviously it is no good replacement for Mana Breach and the double W is difficult to handle...
The Monkey is a paranoid choice against Cursed Scrolls which often ruin me when they show up repeatedly in the early game.
The Meddling Mage has turned out to be so very useful in various matchups that i consider to cut another forest to fit him in the MD and add Propaganda to the SB again.
I tested all this too, but reached a state of being not able to decide anything at all. I would like to hear the thoughts of some experienced players about this very much.

I hope all this is not considered totally useless by you and the administration.
I like this deck, I think that you could use Kami of Ancient Law better than Realist though. Also, I changed the sideboard around, and I definitely think the deck needs Arcane Laboratory in the sideboard, as it shuts down Solidarity. Also, naming cards such as high tide and swords to plowshars can totally shut a deck down. You don't need annuls or misdirections, as they aren't as synergistic in this deck. Mana Leak is great, as so is Force of Will. Stifle, meh, I think goes in SB if you can fit it, otherwise, I won't run it. Hope this helps.

Bongo
03-10-2005, 04:01 AM
Quoted from the ATS primer:

Monk Realist: Simply put though, I feel this is inferior to Elvish Lyrist. The only benefit this has over Lyrist is it has synergy with Tradewind Rider, and it doesn’t require an activation cost. However, there’s a good chance Anger will be in the graveyard when playing, so the activation cost isn’t much of a bother.

I think this can also be applied to Uktabi Orangutan and Scavenger Folk. What's your reason to run Uktabi over Scavenger Folk or Elvish Scrapper?

Di
03-10-2005, 07:59 AM
Quoted from the ATS primer:
Quote
Monk Realist: Simply put though, I feel this is inferior to Elvish Lyrist. The only benefit this has over Lyrist is it has synergy with Tradewind Rider, and it doesn’t require an activation cost. However, there’s a good chance Anger will be in the graveyard when playing, so the activation cost isn’t much of a bother.


I think this can also be applied to Uktabi Orangutan and Scavenger Folk. What's your reason to run Uktabi over Scavenger Folk or Elvish Scrapper?

When that was written, Dragon was one of the tier 1 decks, so the deck was much better off running Lyrist in chance of playing it turn 1 to stop the combo. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that in the primer.
Otherwise Realist is a fine choice, but still inferior to Kami of Ancient Law. Scavenger Folk works fine as well, I suppose though the artifact situation is a bit different, because of cards like Shackles and Disk and whatnot, or even Tormod's Crypt, when having Anger in the graveyard might not be there, so the immidiate killing of the artifact is necessary.

lyle h
03-22-2005, 06:31 PM
Quoted from the ATS primer:

Monk Realist: Simply put though, I feel this is inferior to Elvish Lyrist. The only benefit this has over Lyrist is it has synergy with Tradewind Rider, and it doesn’t require an activation cost. However, there’s a good chance Anger will be in the graveyard when playing, so the activation cost isn’t much of a bother.

I think this can also be applied to Uktabi Orangutan and Scavenger Folk. What's your reason to run Uktabi over Scavenger Folk or Elvish Scrapper?
I prefer to use the sex monkeys as it can kill the Cursed Totem that can be so very problematic. Sure the ability to choke off their artifact during the other player's turn is a valuable asset,but an monkey can get one of the deck's worst hosers. Not to mention he stays in play so you can use him with the tradewind rider.

juventus
03-22-2005, 10:36 PM
Ok, so I have been toying with this deck lately *bad sign* and I have radically changed it. I'm not yet sure whether it was for better or for worse, but I can give reasons for my card choices.

My ATS
//Lands (20)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
7 Forest
//Core Cards (25)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Tradewind Rider
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Eternal Witness
//One of's (15)
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mystic Snake
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wood Elves
1 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Clone
1 Spike Feeder

I guess I'll just address the changes one by one...

I)

No E tutor- many reasons here:
1. It's not blue, doesn't pitch to FOW
2. It's not a creature, doesn't pitch to Survival
3. It's completely dead once you have a Survival on the board
4. It makes you splash a fourth color all on it's own
5. It's bad card advantage
6. You won't always be able to play it

mainly the fact is, yes, survival is essential to this deck, and when you get one out, and you have the right amount of resources, you will beat basically every single deck. IMO though, if you are using e tutor to get it into play, you are only winning if your opponent's deck:
A) is slow as ass
and
B) has no disruption

and no good deck in the format has both of those characteristics. So therefore tutor is bad against every good dec in the format.

II)

one extra fetch/two more lands/2nd taiga-

I added an extra fetch for extra mana stability, as well as extra synnergy with witness/brainstorm/anger.

I decided to play two more lands because I just found that mana critters were not enough. I needed more lands out and I would have given up a mana critter for a land any day. The fact is, survival works best when you have many lands. Rofellos works better with more lands out as well obviously.

I just like having a second taiga in case the first one gets wasted or something. It's also good because I now play 3 castable red cards.

III) random stupid card decisions-

3rd witness- <3 this card, helps almost any matchup vs. disruption and combos with many cards (tradewind/clone/itself).

Zealot- I have always found more useful than Sex monkey and Lyrist, just IMO.

FTK- is a good creature to draw without survival, and can take out large creatures that bother you, combos nicely with tradewind/clone.

Fanatic- good in the mirror for stuff like rofellos, also compliments sharpshooter nicely. Another card that is never bad to draw without survival.

Sharpshooter- I can't ever see myself playing survival without this guy, is HUGE in the mirror, and does stuff against many many decks.

Wood Elves- awesome for getting taiga/a third land/trop maybe?

Fyndhorn Elves- fifth first-turn, one-mana producer

Clone- I like him better than masticore in the "fix random problems" slot, he also pitches to FOW I guess.

Spike Feeder- I find life gain to be crucial in survival, that's just my opinion.

IV) no genesis- Two words: too slow.
....

witness can do his job fine, for one mana less because you don't have to pitch him, and witness can also be used during the main phase. Finally, witness >>>> genesis when there is no survival on the board.


Well, I'm really interested in seeing what you think!

whether you think I am completely retarded or that I might have actually done something right.

troopatroop
03-22-2005, 10:50 PM
Cutting Enlightened Tutor is something that you can do, but for god sakes dont change the toolbox. Play Sylvan library or something, but dont play bad cards like fanatic and clone. Just because they are good without survival doesn't mean that you should run them. FTK I can understand, but to me its just overkill. Gilded drake, Masticore, and Sharpshooter are enough removal for me. What does he do that they dont? Are the rare surcumstances where FTK would be better warrant his inclusion? I'm leaning towards no.

Genesis is one of the best creatures in this deck. He wins games...Many, Many games. He stays. He can be GG against control game 1. I would never cut him.

I wouldn't add 2 more lands solely on the fact that I have never been unhappy with the land count after playing the deck for about a year. 18 lands has always seemed to fit perfectly with the accelerants and put those 4 ideal forests on the board, however, In your build you may need 20 lands. It does look quite different.

I have been very happy with the enlightened tutors and completely disagree with them being cut, but if you are going to cut them please play sylvan library at the very least.

Di
03-22-2005, 10:57 PM
Wow. Interesting ideas, I'll definately give you that. However, I think there's issues with almost every change you've made. Where to begin...

mainly the fact is, yes, survival is essential to this deck, and when you get one out, and you have the right amount of resources, you will beat basically every single deck. IMO though, if you are using e tutor to get it into play, you are only winning if your opponent's deck:
A) is slow as ass
and
B) has no disruption


So...if I play Enlightened Tutor on turn 1, my opponent's deck is slow? I don't understand how you could be against the idea of having a high percentage of getting Survival into play. It can be card disadvantage, but it's called a greater good. Lose some advantage for a single turn to gain advantage for the rest of the game, otherwise known as a win.


No E tutor- many reasons here:
1. It's not blue, doesn't pitch to FOW
2. It's not a creature, doesn't pitch to Survival
3. It's completely dead once you have a Survival on the board
4. It makes you splash a fourth color all on it's own
5. It's bad card advantage
6. You won't always be able to play it

1. If you're so concerned about pitching to FoW, add another blue card. You only run 15.
2 and 3. If you have Survival on the board, who cares? If it's destroyed, it saves mana by getting another Survival instead of paying the extra few to use Witness and get it back.
4. Not really. It allows you to run Kami of Ancient Law, which is *really* good, as well as sideboard bullets, such as Worship and Absolute Law, which in my opinion, are ridiculous. Worship alone is almost enough for inclusion.
5. As I said earlier, it's for the greater good. Go on a slight disadvantage to gain tremendous advantage.
6. Eh, sometimes that occurs. Personally, I haven't had that much trouble finding white mana the turn I want to cast the card. Between Brainstorm and fetchlands, finding Savannah, or Survival for that matter, isn't all too hard.


Fanatic- good in the mirror for stuff like rofellos, also compliments sharpshooter nicely. Another card that is never bad to draw without survival.

In almost every case I can think of, a second Sharpshooter would be better. The only times otherwise is when you're low on mana, which shouldn't be a case if you want to kill things, or if you don't have haste.


Wood Elves- awesome for getting taiga/a third land/trop maybe?

I love it with a passion, but I can't find room in my build. I don't think I honestly ever will :-/


Clone- I like him better than masticore in the "fix random problems" slot, he also pitches to FOW I guess.

Clone copies something. It doesn't read " Smash for 4 every turn while dismantling an opponent's army." That doesn't fix nearly the amount of problems Masticore does. It isn't nearly a good of card to randomly draw, either.


IV) no genesis- Two words: too slow.

So, you say your game against Landstill is easy? Howabout against decks that go extremely aggressive on you? G'luck.


witness can do his job fine, for one mana less because you don't have to pitch him, and witness can also be used during the main phase. Finally, witness >>>> genesis when there is no survival on the board.


Maybe. But what if Witness gets countered? Oops. Genesis goes over and over again. Witness is a one time shot.

So, in short, you've essentially taken the deck and:

-Gave you a smaller chance at playing Survival, essentially making matchups a bit worse.
-Made your Landstill matchup much worse.
-Made your aggro matchup worse.(How do you plan on stopping a rush of creatures? Your Sharpshooter and Fanatic won't save you there!)
-Said Enlightened Tutor is bad. That pisses me off.

I honestly don't mean to criticize, because I think the idea you're trying it great, but I don't see how you can benefit after missing so much.

juventus
03-22-2005, 11:01 PM
Cutting Enlightened Tutor is something that you can do, but for god sakes dont change the toolbox. Play Sylvan library or something, but dont play bad cards like fanatic and clone. Just because they are good without survival doesn't mean that you should run them. FTK I can understand, but to me its just overkill. Gilded drake, Masticore, and Sharpshooter are enough removal for me. What does he do that they dont? Are the rare surcumstances where FTK would be better warrant his inclusion? I'm leaning towards no.

Genesis is one of the best creatures in this deck. He wins games...Many, Many games. He stays. He can be GG against control game 1. I would never cut him.

I wouldn't add 2 more lands solely on the fact that I have never been unhappy with the land count after playing the deck for about a year. 18 lands has always seemed to fit perfectly with the accelerants and put those 4 ideal forests on the board, however, In your build you may need 20 lands. It does look quite different.

I have been very happy with the enlightened tutors and completely disagree with them being cut, but if you are going to cut them please play sylvan library at the very least.

Ok, so I guess fanatic was kind of a stretch, I am kinda still testing him. As for clone, he is awesome! I also forgot to mention that he deals with any kind of untargetable creature. He combos with FTK, tradewind, wood elves, spike feeder, anything....sharpshooter. I mean, you are the ATS bitch and have probably played this deck much more than me, but i found him to be very useful in the games that I played with him.

Ok, so maybe playing the deck for 1 year isn't enough, but you have to admit that you have played the deck with 20 lands for 0 years. I have played both, and I really am happy with 20. I mean, it's still much lower than your average deck, and 7 fetcheds will thin it some too, and brainstorm can put extra lands away.

E tutors do have it's advantages, but I am strongly against them. For the reasons I stated before.

bigguyinblack
03-23-2005, 02:09 AM
If you want to play Survival with no tutors, and like FTK that much you should think about giving Survival Advantage (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=623) a try. It has a weaker game against combo but in my testing it handles aggro and control about as well. ATS has been around for years now and has changed by 5 cards or so not counting the land to support white. Every choice has been tested hard and the deck is still 61 cards. I truly belive that at this point the only reasons to change the deck are 1. A new card comes out that is superior to an old one (Kami of the Ancient Law). or 2. A card is uber in your own metagame (Sharpshooter #2 maindecked in a sea of Elves for example).

CynicalSquirrel
03-23-2005, 04:17 AM
The Clone just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like he could come in handy a fair amount, but something like Duplicant seems like it would be millions of times better. Duplicant not only does the exact same thing, but for 2 additional colorless mana you get to remove their creature from the game with a colorless creature. I just don't see how Clone can be any better than Duplicant, although neither seem necessary at all to me.

I remember when I was playing the deck and attempting to build it (I still suck at magic, so I changed to RG, which is still challenging but fun to play), my biggest problem was getting that lone Taiga into play to trigger Anger. Would tinkering the mana base to -1 Forest +1 Taiga be a potential inclusion? I personally (just looking at decks here; I've never actually been able to build a solid deck and attend a tourney) don't see Wasteland around as much, and the chance to get Anger (Which is a huge card for the deck) more consistantly seems well worth it to me. You could also maybe make room for FTK, though he seems somewhat unnecessary to me.

Raven Fire
03-23-2005, 01:47 PM
No E tutor- many reasons here:
1. It's not blue, doesn't pitch to FOW
5. It's bad card advantage
If FoW is worth playing despite its card disadvantage, so is E. Tutor in a deck designed around Survival (especially considering the other bombs it can grab like Worship, Null Rod, 'Core, Duplicant, etc.).

Edit: It should be noted that reasons 1,2,and 3 could also be applied to Survival of the Fittest itself and we certainly aren't going to cut that.

juventus
03-23-2005, 09:46 PM
So...if I play Enlightened Tutor on turn 1, my opponent's deck is slow? I don't understand how you could be against the idea of having a high percentage of getting Survival into play. It can be card disadvantage, but it's called a greater good. Lose some advantage for a single turn to gain advantage for the rest of the game, otherwise known as a win.
if you play e tutor turn one, I am assuming that you will play survival turn 2, then do the squee thiong turn 3, which means:

you're not doing anything for 3 turns. not one. and if a deck you're playing against can't deal with that, or kill you by then, something is wrong. I mean, they really are just goldfishing turns 1-3 unless you have a FOW or something.


In almost every case I can think of, a second Sharpshooter would be better. The only times otherwise is when you're low on mana, which shouldn't be a case if you want to kill things, or if you don't have haste.

ok, agreed, I would rather play a second Sharpshooter.


Clone copies something. It doesn't read " Smash for 4 every turn while dismantling an opponent's army." That doesn't fix nearly the amount of problems Masticore does. It isn't nearly a good of card to randomly draw, either.


clone is a good card to randomly draw. It has so many good targets. And it kinda does read smash for 4 while dismantling opponent's army, cuz many times it clones an FTK. Finally, it has the awesome ability to deal with untargetable creatures.


So, you say your game against Landstill is easy? Howabout against decks that go extremely aggressive on you? G'luck.

I board it in for control, an extra witness is almost as good game one.



Maybe. But what if Witness gets countered? Oops. Genesis goes over and over again. Witness is a one time shot.


not when you have three of them and a clone.



bigguyinblack:

If you want to play Survival with no tutors, and like FTK that much you should think about giving Survival Advantage a try. It has a weaker game against combo but in my testing it handles aggro and control about as well.

dude, I'm not retarded, please do me a favor and don't treat me like a ten year old from texas. I know what ATS and survival advantage are. I am trying something new. I'm not throwing in FTK's or taking out tutors just because I feel like it.

cynical squirrel:

The Clone just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like he could come in handy a fair amount, but something like Duplicant seems like it would be millions of times better. Duplicant not only does the exact same thing, but for 2 additional colorless mana you get to remove their creature from the game with a colorless creature. I just don't see how Clone can be any better than Duplicant, although neither seem necessary at all to me.


ok, so what does clone have over duplicant:
1. can do awesome shit with CIP's of your own creatures
2. ids blue and removes to FOW
3. only costs 4 mana
4. can deal with untargetable creatures

is that enough?


If FoW is worth playing despite its card disadvantage, so is E. Tutor in a deck designed around Survival (especially considering the other bombs it can grab like Worship, Null Rod, 'Core, Duplicant, etc.).

IMO, whenever you play e tutor, you will most likely lose the game, that is just my opinion though, any of you can tell me of games that you played e tutor and won, and I would probably rest my case if it happened fairly regularly. From my experiences, I win when I play survival from my hand, without wasting a card and a turn to find it. I have also already stated 6 reasons why I think it is no good (which pisses Diablos off).

Peter_Rotten
03-23-2005, 10:33 PM
First, Juventus, I wish you had started a new thread for your ATS revision. Since it takes the deck in a bit of a different direction, it should not go in this forum. Anyway, cutting and pasting the responses into a new thread is not something that I feel like doing, so we're going to roll with it.

I really have an issue with Clone in your deck. Let's do some brainstorming as to situations when Clone could be needed.

1. Opponent has a fatty. Clone it. Now you both have a fatty. Fatty blocks Fatty and both die, or you have a stale mate. Or you could Drake the Fatty. You now have a Fatty and opponent has a 3/3 Flyer that you are probably going to bounce within the next two turns.
2. Opponent has a fatty that you want to kill. FtK can't handle it alone. You have enough mana... you cast FtK and then Clone to kill the Fatty. Or you could Drake the Fatty.
3. Opponent has an untargettable Fatty. You could Clone it. Or you could SporeFrog lock it. Or you could chump and bounce.
4. Opponent has a pro-red shadow critter. You could Clone it and chump. Or you could use NastyWhore (which BTW, you can search out with ETutor in a pinch).

What critters are you planning to Clone? Tradewind? Why not search out another? NastyWhore? Good luck with that upkeep. Rofellos? Um, new Legends rules owns that. Seedborn? Can't see a reason why.

I don't see Clone solving any problems. It might be fun to Clone an Exalted Angel, but why not steal it? It might be cute to Clone a Meddling Mage, but why not kill it? Really what critter are you going to Clone that you can't kill, steal, or chump?

juventus
03-23-2005, 10:41 PM
What critters are you planning to Clone?
Tradewind Rider
Eternal Witness
Gilded Drake
Viridian Zealot
Flametongue Kavu
Goblin Sharpshooter
Wood Elves
Spike Feeder

are all good clone targets....

then of course in a pinch you can clone your opponent's stuff too.

Peter_Rotten
03-23-2005, 11:00 PM
What critters are you planning to Clone?
Tradewind Rider
Eternal Witness
Gilded Drake
Viridian Zealot
Flametongue Kavu
Goblin Sharpshooter
Wood Elves
Spike Feeder

are all good clone targets....

then of course in a pinch you can clone your opponent's stuff too.
Tradewind - search out another - same mana cost as searching out Clone.
Eternal Witness - search out another - less mana than searching out Clone.
Gilded Drake - bounce it - free if your board is set up
Viridian Zealot - sort of pointless. I see the situations arising when this is needed to be few and far between.
FtK - Will this ever really be needed?
Sharpshooter - why not simply run the 2nd?
Wood Elves - Wood Elves ramps you up to 4 mana. Cloning it would ramp you up to 5. This does not sound like very productive early turns.
Spike Feeder - Umm, maybe against Burn. But if burn is your concern, then why not simply run another Feeder or a Baloth?

juventus
03-23-2005, 11:27 PM
Tradewind - search out another - same mana cost as searching out Clone.
Eternal Witness - search out another - less mana than searching out Clone.
Gilded Drake - bounce it - free if your board is set up
Viridian Zealot - sort of pointless. I see the situations arising when this is needed to be few and far between.
FtK - Will this ever really be needed?
Sharpshooter - why not simply run the 2nd?
Wood Elves - Wood Elves ramps you up to 4 mana. Cloning it would ramp you up to 5. This does not sound like very productive early turns.
Spike Feeder - Umm, maybe against Burn. But if burn is your concern, then why not simply run another Feeder or a Baloth?
You kind of answered your own question, the clone works as a "second everything" in the deck. The fact that he deals with opponents' creatures sometimes is just bonus.

Di
03-23-2005, 11:32 PM
if you play e tutor turn one, I am assuming that you will play survival turn 2, then do the squee thiong turn 3, which means:

you're not doing anything for 3 turns. not one. and if a deck you're playing against can't deal with that, or kill you by then, something is wrong. I mean, they really are just goldfishing turns 1-3 unless you have a FOW or something.

First, you need to remember this is 1.5. Decks don't generally win by turn 3. The fundamental turn in this format isn't until turn 4 anyway after the September B/r announcement. Anyway:

You technically only miss one turn in the scenario, and that's the first. The second turn you don't "let the opponent goldfish", you force them to find a solution or lose the game. The third turn isn't nothing to scoff at either. It's about building mana. If I have a creature or two in hand, and have access to Taiga, by turn 4 ATS will have the game won. You build up your mana supply, and by turn 4 am able to cast Tradewind Rider and whatever else you feel like.

Your basically saying ATS is bad for doing these sort of things. Well, if letting the opponent goldfish for 3 turns is bad, why does this deck win..a lot?


clone is a good card to randomly draw. It has so many good targets. And it kinda does read smash for 4 while dismantling opponent's army, cuz many times it clones an FTK. Finally, it has the awesome ability to deal with untargetable creatures.

After the list you just created, and peter_rotten's response as well, it seems that it's a really great draw, when you randomly draw the other handful of singletons in the deck. Wow, that's reliable. The card is too conditional. It requires something good to already be in play. But what good is it after a Wrath of God? Masticore sure as hell beats that to the punch. It isn't creature removal unless you randomly have the single FTK in play, and it isn't a beatstick unless you have FTK in play. Well, good luck with that. I'll stick with the Masticore, not "B.F.M"


IMO, whenever you play e tutor, you will most likely lose the game, that is just my opinion though, any of you can tell me of games that you played e tutor and won, and I would probably rest my case if it happened fairly regularly. From my experiences, I win when I play survival from my hand, without wasting a card and a turn to find it. I have also already stated 6 reasons why I think it is no good (which pisses Diablos off).


I'm pretty sure any of my opponent's can attest to Enlightened Tutor being responsible for them losing the game. If you think being able to search for Survival of the Fittest, at the cost of a single draw cast at the opponen'ts end step, will lose you the game, maybe you should stick to Suicide Black or something a lot less complicated. Your reason of why it's bad are complete falacy. You need to realize the fact that running more than 4 copies of Survival of the Fittest is a *good* thing. Is there a problem with assurance that the card you need to win the game is on the top of your deck?

scrumdogg
03-24-2005, 08:23 AM
E. Tutor also allows you access all other enchantments & artifacts in the deck, which can be invaluable - especially after sideboarding. Is SotF the primary target? Absolutely. It is your primary path to victory. E. Tutor allows you run silver bullets in your sideboard like Solitary Confinement or Worship or Aura Shards or Seal of Cleansing or etc etc ad infinitum effectively. The fact that it can get Masticore first game, by paying W discard one card instead of G discard one creature card, is just fine. I have E. Tutored for the masticore to guarantee having a critter to ditch to SotF (or 2 critters for an explosive turn)... Is it sometimes a dead draw? Yes, but so is a second or third SotF many times...until they deal with the one on the table, at which point I want another one to drop for G1 (or WG1 as it may be...) instead GGG2.

troopatroop
03-24-2005, 09:53 AM
I think that E-tutor -CAN- be cut, and if you're extremely stubborn on that I doubt that we will change your mind. It shouldn't, but if you're settling on that well... whatever, but please play Sylvan Library. The card is amazing in the deck and when you cut all of those bad creatures and put libraries/more FTK's in you'll have something of a hybrid between Advantage and ATS. I've seen Norm do it and do pretty well, and Afro claims that its actually a better deck. Give it a try. Do something like...

-1 fanatic
-1 clone
-3 forest
-1 fyndhorn elf
-1 spike feeder

+1 Wall of roots
+2 FTK
+2 sylvan Library
+1 taiga
+1 masticore

It plays alot more brutally than ATS does and Sylvan Library is such a house against control. It still plays Tradewind and Force of Will for anything troublesome, and plays great without the Survival... something that matters when you cut E-tutor. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but that it can definetly be done.


:::EDIT:::

Ok, here is where I really try to make my contribution to ATS. There is one card that I truly want to see in the mainboard for this deck but haven't been able to find room for. That card is wood elves. Now I have many reasons for the inclusion of the card and would like to address them all one by one to let my suggestion be viewed more seriously.

-1 Wall of roots
+1 Wood Elves

Reason 1: Fetching Taiga

Taiga is something that is extremely important to ATS, nothing new there. The current trick to getting a Taiga into play is to survival for Witness, play Witness returning a sac-land, and sac-landing for the Taiga... Like it used to be done with Cartographer. This does not work if you haven't used a sac-land previously, and makes it impossible to get the Taiga. The Witness thing works ok, but it also requires you to not play a land for the turn before the sac land. This makes Rofellos and Quirrion Ranger much weaker.

Reason 2: The 3cc spot

ATS lacks pro active creatures in the 3cc spot. If you have 4 mana available and are trying to set up the lock the only creature you can really go crazy with is Wood Elves if you don't have the taiga. Playing wood elves fetching taiga and grabbing Rofellos EOT (or Anger is you dont have it already) is amazing and is something thats Impossible. It's just a really explosive creature that can lead to HUGE plays next turn.

Reason 3: WOR vs W.E.

Now this is debatable for sure, but I'm going to lead towards Wood Elves. It's something that is very often situational. They're both accelerants and do very similar things, but wood elves can break the game, and Wall of Roots in my opinion... just can't.

I'm absolutely positive that Di has thought about wood elves, and I'm completely ready to be proven wrong here, but I think that the change would be extremely beneficial to the deck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-29-2005, 06:32 PM
Sudden thought from the best decks thread in Community, in particular ATS vs. Landstill; why not fit in a single maindeck Seal of Cleansing so that you can grab it with Enlightened Tutor, and need not automatically die when Humility hits the board? I know that the deck has counters, but the extra bit of hate against a prominent deck for the cost of another 1of seems highly worthwhile to me. It's also a relevant and versatile enough answer against the rest of the format that it's not like maindecking a dead card that only comes up against Landstill.

Sims
03-29-2005, 07:09 PM
My primary basis against it is that it cannot be tutored for via Survival. I really would rather spend my E.Tutors on other targets than getting a Seal of Cleansing game 1, especially as there are only 3 Tutors in the deck for Seal. Also, what would you plan to take out? The deck is fairly tight as is, running currently at 62 cards as I recall (unless Di found something to actually cut) and I don't think 63 would be too lucky.

This may be a bit off topic, but why the fuck are people running Humility in Landstill ??? ??? Is it just me or is that extremely counter-intuitive.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-29-2005, 07:43 PM
A Quirion Ranger, a Brainstorm, and Gilded Drake could all be cut to the benefit of the deck. Gilded Drake in particular simply isn't that good anymore; there aren't that many creatures to grab that you shouldn't be able to deal with anyway. I suspect ATS players only like it because they can be techy and bounce it once the exchange has taken place with the Tradwind Rider, and gain superfluous card advantage. Frankly, I'd rather just bounce the creature and save yourself the two mana. The amount of times it'll be actually advantageous to play Gilded Drake games seem infinitely less worthwhile than the prospect of beating Landstill after a Humility has resolved. Failing that, the second Ranger seems entirely unnecessary, since your chances of drawing it as a 2x remain small, and there's not a huge amount of benefit to tutoring up a second one when one'll do by you just fine.

Incidentally, all the Landstill decks around here run Humility because it smashes absolutely everything. You have to keep in mind that in Virginia we don't suffer from the same Exalted Angel fetish as in New York, so it's a sideboard card at best in Landstill.

Sims
03-29-2005, 07:54 PM
Actually, the local Landstill players don't run E.Angel, so that isn't as big a deal. It just seems extremely counter intuitive to make it so if you activate your Manlands under a Humility, they don't revert to being a non-creature card. I would think that turning your lands into 1/1 creatures that will die to your Wraths, Disks, Slice n Dice (U/w/r), and other board sweeping effects would be... well... bad..

In any case, wrong thread for that discussion. I agree that Gilded Drake could likely be over the other options you listed, as I haven't seen many games since the B/R change where Drake decided the game. Although, retaining it as a sideboard option (or just running Duplicant in the board if it isn't there already) seems logical.

troopatroop
03-29-2005, 08:16 PM
You can have seal of cleansing in the board for a tutor target to deal with humility, sure. I personally run naturalize because it also helps hit crucible waste if they tie up your white lands.

The key question I've found when using enlightened tutor for sideboard options is whether or not the tutor target is better than an actual survival. The situation has come up with me numerous times... Should I tutor for Chill or Survival against sligh (I chose Chill)? Which one is going to help me more? In a humility situation, yes Seal would be worth it, but is that better than getting survival and waiting for SB naturalizes? Maybe.

In short... yes, you can certainly play seal in the board for humility.

And if Di or BoTS or any other ATS player scroll up to my last post, I suggested a change to the deck that I really like.

Di
03-29-2005, 08:44 PM
And if Di or BoTS or any other ATS player scroll up to my last post, I suggested a change to the deck that I really like.

I read it, and for the most part I agree with nearly all of it. I'm just not going to remove Wall of Roots #3 yet because I'm not completely sure how aggro is affecting the metagame currently because I've been out of 1.5 for a little while.


Sudden thought from the best decks thread in Community, in particular ATS vs. Landstill; why not fit in a single maindeck Seal of Cleansing so that you can grab it with Enlightened Tutor, and need not automatically die when Humility hits the board? I know that the deck has counters, but the extra bit of hate against a prominent deck for the cost of another 1of seems highly worthwhile to me. It's also a relevant and versatile enough answer against the rest of the format that it's not like maindecking a dead card that only comes up against Landstill

It's dead in quite a few matchups. That, and the fact that maindeck Humility is a true rarity maindeck. It may be in Virginia, but that's only a single metagame, and I haven't seen it in any others yet.


Quirion Ranger, a Brainstorm, and Gilded Drake could all be cut to the benefit of the deck. Gilded Drake in particular simply isn't that good anymore; there aren't that many creatures to grab that you shouldn't be able to deal with anyway. I suspect ATS players only like it because they can be techy and bounce it once the exchange has taken place with the Tradwind Rider, and gain superfluous card advantage. Frankly, I'd rather just bounce the creature and save yourself the two mana. The amount of times it'll be actually advantageous to play Gilded Drake games seem infinitely less worthwhile than the prospect of beating Landstill after a Humility has resolved. Failing that, the second Ranger seems entirely unnecessary, since your chances of drawing it as a 2x remain small, and there's not a huge amount of benefit to tutoring up a second one when one'll do by you just fine.


None of those cards can be cut. Quirion Ranger because of the fact that in many cases it acts as a mana accelerant and complete mana fixer as well as it's combo aspect with Tradewind Rider. It solves too many issues for the deck to cut. First on the blue cards, the deck is currently running 16 blue cards, which in my mind, the bare mininum for Force of Will targets. Brainstorm is a card I won't cut for a long, long time. It protects from Duress, finds answers, finds fetchlands, does a lot. Gilded Drake could be cut, but it's effectiveness is incredible. What's better, having to stare at a face-up Exalted Angel and go to 4 mana and 2 other creatures with the chance of them not playing StP, a counter, or Parallax Wave, compared to 2 mana, AND you beat with said Angel. Or taking an opponent's Rofellos, Sharpshooter, Welder, etc.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-29-2005, 09:10 PM
The Blue card argument is strong, but what's the real advantage to two Rangers over one? How often do you search out the second Ranger and play it? It seems like the card wants to be a 1-of.

I predict a rise in maindeck Humilities in general. It's what everyone does here, and it's what allows the deck to do so well versus all the Survival decks everyone's playing.

Di
03-29-2005, 11:33 PM
The Blue card argument is strong, but what's the real advantage to two Rangers over one? How often do you search out the second Ranger and play it? It seems like the card wants to be a 1-of.

I'll admit that there are few occasions that I will search for the second Ranger in mid-lock, but the fact that it serves multiple roles, important roles at that, warrants the inclusion of a second copy. The card is so strong in this deck that I feel it cannot go without the second copy. I always want it in play, and if one gets destroyed/removed, I want to access another one quickly without paying the extra 3 mana for Genesis. Of course the same case for all that can be made for other bombs, mostly Rofellos, who people feel should have thei copies boosted, but it's legndary characteristic is a huge problem when drawing multiples, and the fact that it clutters up slots that serve other important roles, such as Wall of Roots. Plus, if there isn't a Survival or Tradewind immediately following the Rofellos, it's nearly a dead play in many situations.

cdr
03-30-2005, 08:32 PM
It just seems extremely counter intuitive to make it so if you activate your Manlands under a Humility, they don't revert to being a non-creature card.
Not correct. Effects that have a duration, such as "until end of turn", will end at the appropriate time regardless of anything else. The effect has nothing to do with the permanent that produced it once the ability that produced that effect has resolved.


300. General

300.4. When a phase or step ends, any effects scheduled to last "until end of" that phase or step expire. When a phase or step begins, any effects scheduled to last "until" that phase or step expire. Effects that last "until end of combat" expire at the end of the combat phase, not at the beginning of the end of combat step.

Sims
03-30-2005, 08:34 PM
That's why I hate humility :p Perhaps an assumption on my part, but I figured that becoming a 1/1 creature with no abilities would strip the "Until end of turn" clause on the activation of said manland. I stand corrected.

imran
04-05-2005, 09:01 AM
Despite the fact, that I am not an expert on the current ATS List.

Has anybody ever thought about the inclusion of a Wirewood Symbiote, a Viridian Shaman (instead of the currently used Sex monkey) or a Deranged Hermit. The inclusion of the Hermit could give the Deck an aggressive Creature, that could be bounced back either through a Trady or a Wirewood Symbiote.

Are the changes worth, without destroying the current flow of the deck?

System
04-07-2005, 10:18 AM
Could somone please tell me what dense foliage is for (maybe burn) thanks:D

MattH
04-07-2005, 01:44 PM
Got it in one. Foliage stops burn. So does Absolute Law but Foliage also stops stuff like StP/Smother and (far less seen) Capsize and Æther Burst.

Hermit probably isn't worth it, because it does very little in the way of advancing the deck's gameplan (it's a little like putting a Zuran Orb in sligh - a good card, but not appropriate for what the deck wants to do). ATS is a control deck through and through (prison is a form of control) and cards that don't advance that goal have to be pretty spectacular to be worth including.

If the deck were playing Opposition, it would be another matter entirely. That is an example of a prison deck which would use and abuse Hermit very effectively. But not ATS.

Caligula Superfly
04-07-2005, 03:11 PM
Actually, im pretty sure that Hermit was once in the deck. But it was dropped for the reasons stated by MattH.

Di
04-07-2005, 09:44 PM
Has anybody ever thought about the inclusion of a Wirewood Symbiote, a Viridian Shaman (instead of the currently used Sex monkey) or a Deranged Hermit. The inclusion of the Hermit could give the Deck an aggressive Creature, that could be bounced back either through a Trady or a Wirewood Symbiote.

Are the changes worth, without destroying the current flow of the deck?

Wirewood Symbiote- Interesting, but negative synergy with Tradewind Rider. It's a lot easier to just return lands instead of creatures, and when they don't have haste, Symbiote gets worse.

Viridian Shaman- Why? It's the same thing, so it doesn't really matter.

Deranged Hermit- If you read my primer(which is outdated by some time), you'll know Hermit was originally in the deck as a finisher, but later Masticore assumed that spot.

imran
04-08-2005, 10:04 AM
I agree, maybe my Card Choices look a little bit weird, so I will try to explain it a little bit more.

While playing with ATS I always have the strong feeling, that the first creature my oppononent is trying to kill is Rofellos, Without him ATS looses the mana boost it needs till turn 4. ATS can use Genesis to put it into your hand, but it takes a lot of Ressources and time.

Why not trying to protect the guy with another creature?

Wirewood Symbiote (G)
Insect
Return an Elf you control to its owner's hand: Untap target creature. Play this ability only once each turn.

The Symbiote offers the following things. Its a type of Quirion Ranger, that helps protecting your elves. Untaps Tradewind Riders, and Birds of Paradise, creates chump blockers for the aggro matchup (just return the Quirion Ranger to your hand after damage is on the stack), provides recurring artifact destruction with the Viridian Shaman without using Tradewind Rider (while giving it another untap), provides recurring land search with Wood Elves and it helps in the creation of massive squirrel token armies with the Deranged Hermit.

I am not going to add all of these cards, but some of them could really help.

Another idea could be the addition of Intruder Alarm, but I will spare this addition after being critisized on the current "wish list" for ATS.

bigredmeanie
04-08-2005, 10:45 AM
Intruder Alarm takes this deck in a completely different direction, bu if you feel like adding Intruder Alarm is something you want to do then start a new thread.

I don't think that Symbiot is as good in this deck as it would be in something like RGSA. There just aren't that many elves in this deck, and they are all utility, so at the moment it is much easier to just return a Forest to untap a creature than to return most likely the only elf you have in play. Just my thoughts on the situation. Also, if you are having problems with removal in your meta than perhaps you could find room for a Sylvan Safekeeper.

imran
04-11-2005, 12:45 PM
I think your argument that there are not enough Elves in this deck is not the whole truth. You have always one Elf in game, Rofellos, the one guy you want to protect for a minimum of 2 turns. Also you have two Quirion Rangers and one Viridian Shaman, thats 4. And dont forget the Survival of the Fittest.


If you want to generate massive mana, you have now the possible combination of Rofellos, Quirion Ranger and the Symbiote. return one forest with the Ranger, untap Rofellos, return the Ranger, untap Rofellos, cast the Ranger, return one forest, untap Rofellos...

I think this is a possible strong play, cause you can use the Symbiote for Mana Production or for protecting the Elves in your deck, WITHOUT wasting your Tradewind Rider untap step.

bigredmeanie
04-11-2005, 04:48 PM
I am aware of the elves in the deck, however, I still feel that the Symbiot is a win more card. What have you cut in order to add the Symbiot? It also seems to me like if you are running the Symbiot you also want to be running a Deranged Hermit. Deranged Hermit really wants to be in ATS, but I don't think he is better than anything else already in the deck. This deck already is running 61 cards. Adding more isn't a good idea. In fact I have considered removing the Lyrist and Sex Monkey to add in a Zealot. The only reason I haven't yet is because sometimes having 5 mana the turn you need to search, play, and activate can be a problem.

troopatroop
04-11-2005, 05:18 PM
The deck is actually 62 cards ATM...

Rofellos isn't all that amazingly important, He just generates a big next turn. If you're playing ATS and always going for Rofellos first you're prolly not playing the deck right, because he's only used when you've gotten the Taiga to seal the deal. If your opponent plows it, meh. I really don't mind all THAT much, because the damage is already done. Symbiote saves Rofellos... what you should really be doing is saving Survival.

And why is my suggestion getting no responses... It's a legitimate yet small change.

-1 Wall Of Roots
+1 Wood Elves

there's an explaination a page back.

Sims
04-11-2005, 05:35 PM
I am aware of the elves in the deck, however, I still feel that the Symbiot is a win more card. What have you cut in order to add the Symbiot? It also seems to me like if you are running the Symbiot you also want to be running a Deranged Hermit. Deranged Hermit really wants to be in ATS, but I don't think he is better than anything else already in the deck. This deck already is running 61 cards. Adding more isn't a good idea. In fact I have considered removing the Lyrist and Sex Monkey to add in a Zealot. The only reason I haven't yet is because sometimes having 5 mana the turn you need to search, play, and activate can be a problem.
I agree with the Symbiote, but on the other points...

In the primer Di talks about how Hermit was originally in the deck, but was removed. I don't know what the reason was behind it, but I would trust Di's oppinion on that one. If he took Hermit out for a reason, it's gotta be a good reason. (Edit: Actually on this page is the post about how he removed Hermit for Masticore, which to me seems like a good play.)

Zealot was tried and was dropped since it requires 1GGGG + a creature (barring something useful like pitching Squee/Genesis/Anger to get it) to search, play, and activate... this can be a pain in the ass without an active Rofellos already, and at that point it's easier to just win or fetch a less color intensive answer in Sex Monkey or Kami of Ancient Law (which I believe was agreed as the optimal card to be running in the Lyrist spot.)

And yea... the decklist is currently 62 cards, so adding more would be... well...bad..



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1113251786

imran
04-11-2005, 05:42 PM
@troopatroop

I really like your idea of adding the Wood Elves and removing a Wall of Roots, especially because its another Elf

@ bigredmeanie

I am not really sure about the whole thing. I thought about the following changes:

Minor Changes
-1 Uktabi Orangutan --> Viridian Shaman
-1 Elvish Lyrist --> Kami of Ancient Law

Major Changes
-1 Wall of Roots --> Wood Elves
-1 Mana Leak --> Wirewood Symbiote
-1 Mana Leak --> Meddling Mage
-1 Mystic Snake --> Deranged Hermit (the most debatable)

I know my major changes let this deck play out completely different.

Maybe its just too difficult to descuss all of the changes at once. I guess we dont need to discuss about the minor changes, because as far as I know the Lyrist was "officially" swapped with the Kami.
1. The first major change is the addition of the Wood Elves. troopatroop added them based on anther argumentation, my version supports his arguments AND justifies the addition of the Symbiote.
2. The Mana Leaks were exchanged with one Symbiote and one Meddling Mage. Why? I never thought, that Mana Leaks are counters, that are ever worth to be added, maybe due to the fact, taht I have a type one background ( FOW and Mana Drains are just a better duo than FOW and Mana Leak). The Meddling Mage has the important role to save this deck against the key spells, like Wrath of God, Pernicious Deed and other evil stuff. Maybe I am totally wrong.
3. 1 Mystic Snake for a Deranged Hermit? I must be crazy, its just an idea, maybe I should put the snake back and forget about the Hermit, because the amount of blue cards is dropping seriously low.

P.S.: Please forgive me my poor english, because its not my mother tongue but I try my best :)

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-11-2005, 05:44 PM
Yeah... incidentally, 62 cards is still terrible. Two cards still need to be cut. Running 62 cards was cute the first time Di did it, but now it's just bad Magic.

Di
04-11-2005, 06:45 PM
No, it's always been bad Magic. I really couldn't decide what to cut, so I just threw the card in. I personally don't mind, there's a chance I'll keep the deck like that, despite realizing the risk I put in the deck, but I encourage others to drop it down to at least 61, but their it's their choice on what to remove.

@imran

The first thing I noticed in your suggestion was the idea to remove blue cards, which you fortunately recognize. Removing three blue cards and only adding one puts the deck at 14, which isn't enough to support Force of Will. If you go through with those changes, you might as well remove FoW from the deck completely. Besides, Deranged Hermit? Why? It doesn't do anything for the deck except some cute tricks with Tradewind Rider, by which that point the game is already won and you're wasting time. You can of course attack with it, which is straying away from the deck's gameplan, and it's also a five mana investment. If I have five lands untapped and a Tradewind in play, I'd enjoy casting Seedborn Muse instead, and just win.


Rofellos isn't all that amazingly important, He just generates a big next turn. If you're playing ATS and always going for Rofellos first you're prolly not playing the deck right, because he's only used when you've gotten the Taiga to seal the deal. If your opponent plows it, meh. I really don't mind all THAT much, because the damage is already done. Symbiote saves Rofellos... what you should really be doing is saving Survival.

I suppose I've been playing the deck wrong, then, because in nearly 90% of the turn 3's I have with a Survival on the board, Rofellos is my first target, regardless of haste(although I'll admit the matchup could determine a different pick, which is what that other 10% is for). The ability to gain a huge advantage on turns 4 and 5 are the reasons why Rofellos is in this deck. I don't get all bummed if he's StP'd myself unless it's in a situation where It's critical he's in play.

imran
04-11-2005, 07:04 PM
@ Diablos

Does that mean, that you agree with the following changes?

Minor Changes
-1 Uktabi Orangutan --> Viridian Shaman
-1 Elvish Lyrist --> Kami of Ancient Law

Major Changes
-1 Wall of Roots --> Wood Elves



Wirewood Symbiote- Interesting, but negative synergy with Tradewind Rider. It's a lot easier to just return lands instead of creatures, and when they don't have haste, Symbiote gets worse.

Viridian Shaman- Why? It's the same thing, so it doesn't really matter.

I dont understand one thing. Do you mean with negative synergy, the fact, that it returns creatures, thus having less creatures to tap for the Tradewind Rider? i thought it has synergy with the birds and the Tradewind Rider, due to the fact, that the Elves in this deck are so cheap, that they could be repayed the turn they were bounced back. That means it would give you either more mana (Birds of Paradise / Rofellos / Wood Elves) or anther untap step. Am I totally wrong. Maybe its not a good idea to drop below 16 blue cards, but I just couldnt find room for the Insects.

If I would add the Insects, the addition of the Shaman should be obvious.

bigredmeanie
04-11-2005, 07:30 PM
@Imran

Though I thought it strange that the deck isn't running a Wood Elf, I do not agree with cutting a Wall of Roots. If you cut it down to 2 you might as well just cut it down to 1. Wall is my favorite turn 2 play, right after Survival of Course. Though I'm sure you know the merits behind Wall of Roots, it is an awesome form of acceleration for this deck. It will never get countered and almost never get killed by your opponent with removal, less Edict.

Though I do agree that Wood Elves should be in the deck, I cannot justify cutting the 3rd Wall of Roots to fit him in.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-11-2005, 07:53 PM
No, it's always been bad Magic. I really couldn't decide what to cut, so I just threw the card in. I personally don't mind, there's a chance I'll keep the deck like that, despite realizing the risk I put in the deck, but I encourage others to drop it down to at least 61, but their it's their choice on what to remove.
I just felt that this needed to have more emphasis put on it. You might be running the deck that way for your own reasons, but because you're essentially the authority on the deck everyone casually talks about ATS now as if it's supposed to run 62 cards, and this is a good thing and a natural thing and the way it should be.

kirdape3
04-11-2005, 09:32 PM
That's because people don't know better. Even though there may be an authority on a subject that does not absolve you from actively considering why every facet of said subject is the way it is. The list as given is 61 or 62 cards - I cannot possibly consider that correct. Cut something - Gilded Drake is probably the best thing to randomly off because the things that you can't machinegun down you can bounce with Tradewind Rider and greatly annoy them with.

Sharpshooter is downright ridiculous in this sort of deck. I'm wondering about how to decisively defeat the mirror without more than 2 of them.

Di
04-11-2005, 10:09 PM
I just felt that this needed to have more emphasis put on it. You might be running the deck that way for your own reasons, but because you're essentially the authority on the deck everyone casually talks about ATS now as if it's supposed to run 62 cards, and this is a good thing and a natural thing and the way it should be.


Perhaps you should read my statement more clearly. If you did in fact read, you'd understand that I encouraged people to drop the 62nd card. I was too stuck on what to cut so I threw it in last minute, and it happened to not affect the game very much. But there's no way in hell that the deck is supposed to be 62 cards, I'm just unsure of what to cut. Plus, I don't intend on having my list being the standard that everyone has to run, it is simply a guideline for people building the deck.


Sharpshooter is downright ridiculous in this sort of deck. I'm wondering about how to decisively defeat the mirror without more than 2 of them.

You do run two of them- Goblin Sharpshooter and Gilded Drake, who also happens to be Rofellos #2.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-12-2005, 02:16 AM
I just felt that this needed to have more emphasis put on it. You might be running the deck that way for your own reasons, but because you're essentially the authority on the deck everyone casually talks about ATS now as if it's supposed to run 62 cards, and this is a good thing and a natural thing and the way it should be.


Perhaps you should read my statement more clearly. If you did in fact read, you'd understand that I encouraged people to drop the 62nd card. I was too stuck on what to cut so I threw it in last minute, and it happened to not affect the game very much. But there's no way in hell that the deck is supposed to be 62 cards, I'm just unsure of what to cut. Plus, I don't intend on having my list being the standard that everyone has to run, it is simply a guideline for people building the deck.


Sharpshooter is downright ridiculous in this sort of deck. I'm wondering about how to decisively defeat the mirror without more than 2 of them.

You do run two of them- Goblin Sharpshooter and Gilded Drake, who also happens to be Rofellos #2.
Read my statement in reply to your statement more clearly; I was agreeing with you and bringing it up not to contradict you, but for the attention of others.

scrumdogg
04-12-2005, 10:27 AM
I can't wait to read the statement referencing the reply to his statement in reply to your statement.... On a note concerning the dropping of Mana Leaks, Mystic Snake, and Gilded Drake - I believe that it would be a grave mistake. As someone who plays primrily against ATS, those cards have purpose well beyond pitching to FoW (although they perform that function just fine unfortunately). A quick note on the Drake & Snake in regards to counterspelling...it sucks hardcore to have your opponent Survival them up to either pitch to FoW or cast Snake for Tradewind-Counter lock on you. Mana Leak doubles the chances for ATS to deny an opponent either an early surge into their own plan for victory (denying a Standtill or SotF or High Tide etc etc) and as a cheap & effective way to deny ways to interrupt/stop the Tradewind Lock (Wrath, Disk, STP, opposing Tradewind, whatever...). As someone who plays against the deck, removing those options from the ATS arsenal would make me extremely happy.... Ditto the loss of Gilded Drake. People have raised the concern that the deck has few real finishing threats of its own, although if it gets Tradewind-Seedborn going it can kill you with any critter that swings....eventually. Gilded Drake allows you let your opponent try and play a finisher (or enabler) and then helpfully donate said card to you, the greazy ATS player, repeatedly if you have Tradewind out.... I'm sure that this is all in the primer, but apparently it needs to be re-iterated. The deck capitalizes on its versatility, as all good SotF decks do, to further it's path to victory - which is locking down everything your opponent tries to do until they die of apoplexy or an aneurysm or a Quirion Ranger beats or something......

BoTS
04-12-2005, 08:27 PM
As for the suggestion of Wood Elves, I highly consider running one or up the deck to at least three Taigas. Drawing a Taiga or a Fetch is key to winning a lot of games and not drawing one with a Survival in play can lose you a lot of key games, I know this from much experience.

Now, on the issue of what to cut. I strongly believe that cutting a certain card shouldn't be a universal decision across multiple communities and metagames, but rather a specific metagame choice. If there aren't a lot of relevent artifacts in your metagame, cut Uktabi Orangutan, or at least move it to the sideboard. If there aren't any Angels, Sharpshooters, or Sundering Titans, cut Drake to the board. It is my personal opinion that the few interchangeable slots are used optimally as metagame slots as opposed to specific universal cards.

imran
04-13-2005, 06:09 AM
@BoTS

If we would follow this idea, we have so seperate the current decklist into 3 Parts.

1. Uncuttable Cards
2. Metagame Choices
3. Metagame Choices in Blue (minimum 16 blue cards)


1. Uncuttable Cards

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
5 Forest
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak

4 Tradewind Rider
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Seedborn Muse

1 Mystic Snake

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger


2. Metagame Choices

1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Masticore (finisher of choice)
1 Viridian Shaman (Artifact destruction)
1 Kami of Ancient Law (Enchantment destruction)
1 Spore Frog (Aggro hoser)

3. Metagame Choices in Blue (minimum 16 blue cards)

1 Gilded Drake

Please correct me, if I made something wrong, but I think its essential to know, which cards are absolutely necessary to run this deck smooth.

We have to cut down the discussion on the metagame choices, but first we have to agree on the cards, that are uncuttable and should be run in every metagame.

bigredmeanie
04-13-2005, 10:57 AM
Lets talk about Wood Elves a little more. My Survival background is in WelderSurvival, but I have recently build ATS. In Welder Survival Wood Elves is an enabler. Welders having haste is the single most important thing you can do. You can't cast a Welder w/o having haste and viable targets. If having haste is important every single time you are ready to cast Tradewind than absolutely the elf needs to be included, otherwise I think his inclusion would have to be metagame and person dependent. Another thing to keep in mind is that if your only Taiga gets wasted than the Wood Elves only ramp you up the mana curve.

So here is what a wood elves does.
1. Fetches the lone Taiga to give your Tradewind haste.
2. Ramps your deck up the mana curve.
3. Makes up for missed land drops.
4. Counts as an elf if you are running Symbiote.

Now let's talk about what we could cut. I agree with imran's breakdown of the deck, so if his assesment is true than the only cards I se us being able to cut is an Eternal Witness, and a Quirion Ranger. Basicaly anything that is run in multiples has to prove its self all over again whenever there is something you want to add. Personally I would probably cut an Eternal Witness. I dropped down to 1 in Welder Survival and didn't miss it.

1 problem I have with the deck, is that it doesn't have a real win condition most of the time. When playing the deck, most opponents just scoope when they realize they cant win. But some decks can create situations where we can not win either. For example. U/G Threshold. The deck runs Nimble Mongoose, and can easily give it flying and give it Threshold. So if they have 2 flying untargetable 3/3's on the board and nothing else than all of a sudden we are in a situation where if time in the round gets called, the games ends in a draw because even though we have board control we can not kill them in 2 or 3 attack phases. So I propose, cutting 1 of the 2 cards I deemed could potentially be cut and adding in a Derranged Hermit. Another card that could be cut IMO is the Mystic Snake. Mystic Snake only excells when you have them stalled at 1 land and are just ensuring they don't actually resolve any spells until you can kill them. I propose that insteat of setting up a soft counterwall like that just set up the win. Cast deranged hermit and swing with him and all the minions, put damage on the stack and bounce the Hermit. Next turn replay the Hermit, get 4 more dudes, and swing for 17 more. With the Hermit's inclusion you give this deck a very aggresive and actual win condition as opposed to consession or swinging with Tradewinds and Eternal Witnesses. Just my 2 cents.


bigredmeanie

troopatroop
04-13-2005, 04:29 PM
I think that you can cut one wall of roots out of the deck and IMO thats the first thing that should go. It's an accelerant... just like wood elves, except that wood elves can break games where you haven't seen a taiga or fetch. I think that the change should've been made awhile ago, it's just beneficial to the deck. Not having haste blows, and with him in the deck it makes me feel more comfortable knowing that I will ALWAYS have that option.

bigredmeanie
04-13-2005, 06:47 PM
I'm not sure this conversation is ever going to go anywhere, but here goes. Wall of Roots is a pretty important accelerant, I would put it there with Birds in this deck. Almost every time I play 1 I use it until its only got a toughness of 1. Then it hangs around with tradewind until I need the last point for something. Now I will admit that I seldom get it later in the game, but the first few turns are so very important for this deck. I do not see how cutting an accelerant for the early game and adding 1 for the mid game could be acceptable. But this may be 1 of those playstyle kind of arguments. I like Wall of Roots alot, but if you don't than by all means cut one.

troopatroop
04-13-2005, 08:13 PM
First of all, WOR isn't really an accelerant. It really only accelerates when survival is in play, and even then Wood elves is better because it increases the effectiveness of Rofellos and Quirion Ranger. The synergy with Rofellos is almost enough to include it by itself, let alone the taiga fetching. It's also really frustrating having 4 mana in the pool and nothing to grab with survival because nothing costs 3. This guy fills that void and ramps up for a rediculous next turn for the W. Actually playtest with him. At times he's unbelievable.

Trust me... I've played this stupid deck for almost 2 years.

bigredmeanie
04-13-2005, 09:08 PM
Troop, you are probably correct. My only problem now is why run only 2 WOR. You will seldom have them when you need them, and you will almost never actually Survival for 1 and play it. Rofellos is just a better 2 drop every time. So consistancy is the problem, not power. I never said that Wood Elves shouldn't be in the deck, I just said I don't want to put it in a WOR slot.

BoTS
04-14-2005, 01:00 AM
First of all, WOR isn't really an accelerant. It really only accelerates when survival is in play, and even then Wood elves is better because it increases the effectiveness of Rofellos and Quirion Ranger. The synergy with Rofellos is almost enough to include it by itself, let alone the taiga fetching. It's also really frustrating having 4 mana in the pool and nothing to grab with survival because nothing costs 3. This guy fills that void and ramps up for a rediculous next turn for the W. Actually playtest with him. At times he's unbelievable.

Trust me... I've played this stupid deck for almost 2 years.
First of all, please try to spell words correctly before you go and do something hasty like underlining them for the world to see and mock you for.

Secondly, how can you justify the statement that Wall of Roots isn't an accelerant? It allows you to play turn 3 Tradewind Riders, turn 4 Seedborn Muses, and with Survival in play it becomes Ridiculous. WoR's other strong point is its extreme effectiveness against aggro. I am always happy to drop a second turn Wall against Goblins, as it often slows them down to the point where you can easily stabilize, or makes them throw a Goblin Grenade at it, still slowing them down. You could cut one WoR, but I would strongly advise against it.

Trust me... I've won a Black Lotus with this stupid deck.

imran
04-14-2005, 03:23 AM
I strongly have to agree with the advice, not to cut the Wall of Roots, they are just too essential to speed up the Survival Engine and an extremely good hoser against aggro.

If you cut them down to 2, they get too random. Thats the reason, why I listed them under the Uncuttable Cards.

The only cards, that are potentially cuttable are the Metagame Choices.

1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Masticore (finisher of choice)
1 Viridian Shaman (Artifact destruction)
1 Kami of Ancient Law (Enchantment destruction)
1 Spore Frog (Aggro hoser)
1 Gilded Drake

If you are playing in an artifact heavy metagame, leave the Shaman in the main, ....

The only cards, the can't justify themselves in multiple numbers are in my opinion only the Ranger and the Winess. Don't get me wrong, these are incredible cards, a must have in this deck, but how often do you need a second Ranger in play. Wouldn't it just be easier to have a Wood Elf in this Slot to fetch a Taiga when you it to go off?

Another cards depending on the Metagame is the Masticore. This is the current finisher of choice, may be he could be replaced by the Deranged Hermit.

Just my 2 cents.

Caligula Superfly
04-14-2005, 10:48 AM
Well, masticore is there to KILL creatures. The deck can't do that any other way, and sometimes stopping them from attacking or trading one for a 3/3 beater isn't going to cut it.

Deranged Hermit just beats, and the deck doesn't even want to do that until they have their opponent reletivally locked anyway, so it just doesn't fit.

One card that popped into my mind yesterday was Meddling Mage. I am utterly flabergasted that I didn't see it in either the SB on page one, or anywhere in the 6 pages of discussion! In my mind it is the perfect answer to belcher and the storm based combo decks in the works. Not to mention anything with a key card or two!

bigredmeanie
04-14-2005, 10:59 AM
Quirion Ranger is actually pretty important for the deck. Not only does he untap Tradewind he also greatly helps your manabase. This deck, as you know, is pretty land light so the Ranger acts as another Bird in play, I don't know how many times Ive tapped a Bird tapped a land, return the land untap the Bird, then replay the land, yay 2 free mana. It also protects your lands from wasteland, which is important, and for those reasons Ranger is a 2 of.

Are the Masticore's other abilities not the reason he is in the deck? Machine gunning down your opponent's team with a Rofellos and a Core seem to be a closser reason why he is in the deck, because as a win condition UUUhh I'm scared.

Isn't Gilded Drake a better answer to your opponents creatures? Tradewind blocks him all day then just returns him to take another creature.

The reason Derranged Hermit fits into the deck, is because the deck doesn't actually have a win condition. All 61 cards and Core is what we resort to for dealing 20 pts of dmg. I don't know about you guys but there are alot of people in my metta that don't scoope until you put them at 0 life, so for me I need something better than a Core for the win, and Hermit fits the bill just fine. Hermit also creates cad advantage, and can create many a chump blocker if it comes to that. The Core is also vulnerable to Sword and is so incredibly mana intensive that he is only good when you are already winning. After a Wrath I would rather topdeck a Hermit than a core anyday. Especially against control.

As for Meddling Mage, absolutely it should be in the board, and maybe a single copy in the main deck. But then again what do we take out for the single Mage?

imran
04-14-2005, 01:42 PM
Regarding Quirion Ranger against Wood Elves
I know, Quirion Ranger is an important creature. Thats why I am cutting it not entirely. The main question is, how often do you really need 2 Rangers in play. Wouldnt it be better to have one Ranger and one Wood Elves with a 100% sure chance to get a Taiga, rather than having unhasted creatures?

Regarding Masticore against Deranged Hermit
I have to agree. Masti is a Win more creature. What do you want to do with him? Kill Creatures? Why not block them, in the end its the same, you just dont want to make you any point of damage. I know, there are always creatures you want to kill, like the Welder and stuff like that. But shit happens. I would prefer the Hermit. Just Overrun the opponent with plenty of Squirrels or use them as chump blockers or tap them for Tradewind Rider.

Regarding Mystic Snake against Meddling Mage
What he does? He is blue, he is pitchable, he saves you normally from being killed by 4 Deeds and any type of Mass Destruction. Like the Snake. Is it worth to try the replacement? I guess so.

Di
04-14-2005, 02:18 PM
Regarding Quirion Ranger against Wood Elves
I know, Quirion Ranger is an important creature. Thats why I am cutting it not entirely. The main question is, how often do you really need 2 Rangers in play. Wouldnt it be better to have one Ranger and one Wood Elves with a 100% sure chance to get a Taiga, rather than having unhasted creatures?

Quirion Ranger is a card that I refuse to cut. I won't go below 2 of them. I've been testing Wood Elves since before most of you actually heard of the deck, and I've always wanted it in there, and have loved the card to death. Ranger is not the card you want to remove for the slot though. Sacrificing a one drop that fixes mana, supplies tons of it, saves lands, and untaps Sharpshooters and Tradewinds is seriously out of line. I'd drop a Bird before I dropped Ranger. I've tested dropping a Ranger in favor of Wood Elves, and at first I thought it was the correct play. But after realizing that the deck heavily relies on the card, it's important to run the second copy in case the first is destroyed/removed. With only one, you'd be forced to get it back using Witness/Genesis, slowing you down in the process. Of course the case could be made that the mana used to return Ranger could be used to cast whatever you like, but the loss of Ranger affects the way the deck is played too greatly.


Regarding Masticore against Deranged Hermit
I have to agree. Masti is a Win more creature. What do you want to do with him? Kill Creatures? Why not block them, in the end its the same, you just dont want to make you any point of damage. I know, there are always creatures you want to kill, like the Welder and stuff like that. But shit happens. I would prefer the Hermit. Just Overrun the opponent with plenty of Squirrels or use them as chump blockers or tap them for Tradewind Rider.

How is Masticore a winmore creature, but Deranged Hermit not? Deranged Hermit's only use is during the attack phase. I'm not stating that this deck wins 90% of the time by concession, but who says Masticore can't attack for a few turns to win? Killing creatures is an important function of the deck's gamplan, because it allows the Tradewind to focus on attacking the opponent's manabase instead of their attack phase. You people also seem to forget that there is more than just Masticore in this deck to attack with. If the opponent doesn't scoop when they have few permanents, or are in a lock, just attack them with everything else. Half the time I enter my attack phase, I'm able to attack for 10+ damage, and there's nothing they can do about it. Take care of the board first, then attack with Masticore, Witness, Muse, Tradewinds, etc. It takes 2-4 turns tops to do this. Not too bad considering the opponent is helpless.


Regarding Mystic Snake against Meddling Mage
What he does? He is blue, he is pitchable, he saves you normally from being killed by 4 Deeds and any type of Mass Destruction. Like the Snake. Is it worth to try the replacement? I guess so.

Meddling mage isn't a bad replacement, but it doesn't do anything against decks such as Landstill who pack multiple problematic spells. You name Wrath, they StP Mage then Wrath. You name StP, they Wrath it away. It has it's advantages against combo decks like Solidarity and Belcher, which I'll admit aren't favorable, but the fact that you don't have an outlet to freely counter a threat using Survival hurts the deck.

bigredmeanie
04-14-2005, 02:21 PM
Wow Meddling Mage in the spot for that Stupid Snake. Sounds like a plan to me. And at least 2 more could be run in the board. Honestly there would be alot to name in every matchup, and once a Survival resolves just start playing Mages and naming differenc problematic spells. In the mirror, just name Survival, or Sharpshooter depending on board position. Sounds excellent to me.

As for Quirion Ranger. People often realize that Quirion Ranger is a pretty important part of the gameplan and setting up and stuff, so they catch STP's all the time. Even Diablos has said that he seldom has 2 in play, that is not why there are 2 in the deck. It is easier to go get the other one and play it than it is to try and get back 1 that was killed with removal. If Rangers are not targets in your meta than you could easily cut 1. In fact you could just cut 1 and not add anything to replace it. Then you get to run 60 cards.

Here are the proposed changes.

-1 Eternal Witness +1 Wood Elves
-1 Mystic Snake +1 Meddling Mage
-1 Masticore +1 Derranged Hermit

All sound like solid changes to me.

Di
04-14-2005, 02:31 PM
I just explained reasons why you shouldn't add Mage and Hermit. Why are you proposing bad changes? Read my last post, jeez. Mage doesn't deal with the matchup that really matters, which is Landstill. Removing Eternal Witness is a play I also debated doing, but it would also worsen the Landstill matchup, as well as weaken the deck as a whole. Removing a Witness means you have less opportunities to get back Survival, Rofellos, Taiga, Sharpshooter, etc, not to mention the excellent job it provides for you in the situation of lacking a Survival, but getting back Brainstorm and FoW.

It's really a difficult situation that the deck has. I have the situation figured out, and my new list, along with techy sideboard will be posted in this thread Saturday night after the tournament is over.

scrumdogg
04-14-2005, 02:52 PM
I just explained reasons why you shouldn't add Mage and Hermit. Why are you proposing bad changes? Read my last post, jeez.

It's really a difficult situation that the deck has.
Because you two posted nearly simultaneously. Take a deep breath and relax, it happens. There was no time to read your post as he was constructing his post since yours was not there yet :cool: I give you full credit for being deeply involved with the deck, but while you are THE authority, you are not God. Your views should be respected, but never taken unquestioned (nobody on this site is that good...and anybody else on other sites in other formats who thinks they are tend to start sliding downhill into mediocrity when they stop questioning and investigating & start pontificating...).

Having taken issue with your arrogance, I am now forced to agree with the points about which you are being arrogant. Eternal Witness is key to any Survival deck being able to recur relevant threats (or possibility of card advantage in your case) against Landstill. Heck, against any deck that can answer each threat with an answer...Eternal Witness (especially recursable) provides a way to overload that plan. Quirion Ranger is an STP magnet and even if it merely dies, it is much more efficient to get it back via Eternal Witness (providing another threat & fuel for Tradewind) than Genesis (which while doable is a serious tempo loss...). Finally, Meddling Mage is a great sideboard option against combo, where they have no relevant way (most of the time) to deal with a 2/2 permanent. Against any deck which actually DOES something, however, I would much rather have the Snake. Counterspell (as a 2/2 instant...) > limited 2/2 preclusionary guy. Snake + Tradewind is a nasty duo as well, having much better synergy than Tradewind + Meddling Mage.

Di
04-14-2005, 03:08 PM
Because you two posted nearly simultaneously. Take a deep breath and relax, it happens. There was no time to read your post as he was constructing his post since yours was not there yet I give you full credit for being deeply involved with the deck, but while you are THE authority, you are not God. Your views should be respected, but never taken unquestioned (nobody on this site is that good...and anybody else on other sites in other formats who thinks they are tend to start sliding downhill into mediocrity when they stop questioning and investigating & start pontificating...).


I don't view myself as God, and regardless of my involvement with this deck, whether I am the authority on it or not, I've given strong reason why the newer card choices floating around aren't strong enough. I really don't mean to come off as a prick, but reasonings I've given should be evidence enough to throw away the suggestions. I'm looking to open this deck up and explore it, but the new suggestions aren't cutting it. In fact, nearly all of the suggestions aren't new to begin with. Hermit is the previous Masticore without the ability to wipeout the opponent' team, Wood Elf I've looked at forever, as I have with Meddling Mage, but never felt Mage had a place in the deck. I utterly hate the casting cost, and the affect it will have on decks that mean the most to ATS isn't worth cutting a searchable counter for.


EDIT: On an unrelated note, you remind me wayyy too much of Michael Moore, Allan. And I hate Michael Moore.

Caligula Superfly
04-14-2005, 03:28 PM
But snake costs four, and mage costs two. I think it would take an extra turn or so to get setup with Snake to counter than it would to drop a Mage right? One turn means alot vs combo. Also, from what ive seen of the storm deck thread it can deal with a counter becasue alot of times they can manage multiple tendrils while going off, and ATS can't always count on having a FoW handy. In that case I think mage would be a more solid choice.

But what do I know, I guess if the deck can do without it then do without it.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the post since it went on a new page. I don't think anyone was saying cut Snake MD for Mage, I myself was just thinking it was a nice SB option. When you would SB it in you could easily take out something else that would be dead vs the combo match.

BoTS
04-14-2005, 04:44 PM
Combo aside from Solidarity shouldn't be too hard to beat first game. If you manage to counter an early Helm or Meditate, you should be in good position to then stabilize and win the game. Aggressive mulliganing for the counter or 3rd Tradewind is generally a good call against combo. After board against Meandeck Tendrils, Belcher, and other Tendrils based combo you get Null Rod, Naturalizes, Arcane Lab, and perhaps Stifles or other combo hosers depending on what you are packing in the SB. Against Solidarity you side in Blessings and win the game unless they have multiple Stifles and Brain Freezes.

Di
04-18-2005, 11:13 PM
I apologize for the late post, but I've been away from a computer for a little while. This post is regarding the ATS list that I ran on Saturday and the new sideboard for the metagame. After Saturday's big tournament, I've recognized some pretty huge aspects about the top decks of the format, and the format as a whole. First, although ATS and Landstill are regarded as the only tier 1 decks, neither show up in large numbers. Survival and control as a whole show up, albeit Survival didn't have many decks behind it, but there were only two ATS decks at the entire Dual Land Draft, and I believe only 3-4 Landstill decks. For being the best, they sure don't see play. Another thing I've noticed is that pure-aggro has dropped, significantly. Most of the decks that I saw who were winning through the attack phase without a Faerie Conclave or horde of Goblins were more towards aggro-control that aggro. SDZ? From my observations, it seems its playstyle is very geared towards controlling the game over just play dude and smash. Gro, Madness, and Angel Stompy are also in this category. Due to the decrease in aggro, or generally "creatures with an ass smaller than 2", it's promted a rather big change to the deck, that in my opinion, shouldn't hurt it: Goblin Sharpshooter back to the sideboard. Personally, I feel this shouldn't come as a suprise to other ATS players who have an ounce of knowledge on the current metagame. If the opponent is maindecking it, get Gilded Drake and wipe them out. If the opponent has an array of creatures, then wipe them with Masticore. Although Sharpshooter is an extremely strong asset to the maindeck, there aren't enough threats in the field to warrant it's slot to the maindeck. In doing so, the deck can go back down to 61 cards, something I really wanted to happen. So, anyway, new list:

2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Wood Elves
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak

4 Tradewind Rider
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mystic Snake

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

1 Masticore
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Spore Frog

Sideboard:
2 Choke
1 Back to Basics
2 Null Rod
2 Naturalize
1 Dense Foliage
1 Absolute Law
1 Worship
1 Dawnstrider
1 Spike Feeder
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Tranquil Grove
1 Goblin Sharpshooter


Notes on changes:

Wood Elves: Secretly, Wood Elves has been in my decklist for about a month. I decided not to release that I had been running it for a couple of reasons, first being for the advent of the tournament, and the second to see if you guys here could figure out how silly is really is(which, thankfully, you guys did :)). The card does wonders for the deck. I removed a Wall of Roots in it's spot, which just switches the role for an accelerant. Although it weakens the aggro game just a bit, it's worth the ability to survival for a Taiga.

Sideboard;

In the Eye of Chaos: For those of you who don't know what it is, here:

In the Eye of Chaos 2U
Enchant World
Whenever an instant is cast, it's controller must pay X, where X is the casting cost of the spell. If they don't, the spell is countered.

Solidarity, anyone? Every spell in the deck now costs double. Good luck to the player who gets around it. It also happens to be extremely useful against Burn and control.

Tranquil Grove: It stops Enchantress cold, and allows a way to tutor to kill Humility, and kill Humility again, because it stays in play. Much, much better than those awful Seal of Cleansing suggestions. Killing Survival to wipe out the board is worth it, if you play the deck correctly.

So yeah, those are current changes. Go nuts with them.

cheeseman
04-18-2005, 11:58 PM
I really like the addition of In the Eye of Chaos. Thanks for the find. While a long-forgotten card, I think that the Eye will prove useful against all sorts of opponents. Does it help with the Landstill matchup at all?

Nightmare
04-19-2005, 10:07 AM
I really like the addition of In the Eye of Chaos. Thanks for the find. While a long-forgotten card, I think that the Eye will prove useful against all sorts of opponents. Does it help with the Landstill matchup at all?
Making a Force actually cost 5 always helps.

bigredmeanie
04-19-2005, 10:57 AM
I really like the addition of In the Eye of Chaos. Thanks for the find. While a long-forgotten card, I think that the Eye will prove useful against all sorts of opponents. Does it help with the Landstill matchup at all?
It should help a ton, if you actually get one to resolve, there really isn't much reason why you shouldn't win. making Force cost 5 and a card makes it a dead card, and a 4 cc counterspell that isn't Rewind is uber crap. It also hurts alot in recking all their removal, and making Brainstorm bad, also Fact or Fiction becomes uncastable at 8 mana. They now just hope to topdeck a Wrath and or Disk, but considering that Disk is easily delt with they are stuck like chuck.

Definately a good find Di.

SpatulaOfTheAges
04-19-2005, 12:22 PM
Tranquil Grove: It stops Enchantress cold, and allows a way to tutor to kill Humility, and kill Humility again, because it stays in play. Much, much better than those awful Seal of Cleansing suggestions. Killing Survival to wipe out the board is worth it, if you play the deck correctly.
Seeing as how Enchantress sides in Aura of Silence in this match, perhaps something like Calming Verse would be preferable.

bigredmeanie
04-19-2005, 01:13 PM
Tranquil Grove: It stops Enchantress cold, and allows a way to tutor to kill Humility, and kill Humility again, because it stays in play. Much, much better than those awful Seal of Cleansing suggestions. Killing Survival to wipe out the board is worth it, if you play the deck correctly.
Seeing as how Enchantress sides in Aura of Silence in this match, perhaps something like Calming Verse would be preferable.
Calming Verse is not an enchantement and thus cannot be fetched by Eturor. I don't think that there is room in the board for 3 Calming Verse.

scrumdogg
04-19-2005, 01:31 PM
Tranquil Grove: It stops Enchantress cold, and allows a way to tutor to kill Humility, and kill Humility again, because it stays in play. Much, much better than those awful Seal of Cleansing suggestions. Killing Survival to wipe out the board is worth it, if you play the deck correctly.
Seeing as how Enchantress sides in Aura of Silence in this match, perhaps something like Calming Verse would be preferable.
Tranquil Grove is an absolute house against Enchantress, as was proved Game 2 in our Top 4 match at the last Big Amrods. The 2 extra colorless is not a significant issue with Rofellos and Quirion Ranger unless you already have Humility down. Blow it up with Aura? Now that Humility isn't in play, Witnessing it back is not hard to do. The only serious competition to the card at the moment is Tempest of Light, but since it is not E.Tutorable that would require 3 sideboard slots...a bit much to dedicate to A) one matchup B) a one shot effect.


Oh, and as for the Michael Moore comment (which we already hashed out via PM btw) I am the self-appointed conscience of the format, bite me if you don't like it :p

Efreet
04-19-2005, 02:28 PM
tranquil grove is certanly the best way to avoid the risk of dangerous humility and other casual enchantment.. is tutorable.. easy to play by rofellos.. no way to put in a so solid sideboard 3x of a one-shot spell..

i wanna show my changes in the deck..

- 1 brainstorm
- 1 quirion ranger
+ 1 mana leak

there are some reasons:

1) my metagame is full of sligh, suicideblack, landstill and UW control deck.. so i never needed an extra ranger, cause usually STP has another target :;):

2) i play this deck since about 8 months, and in every match i do i never never never use the 4th brainstorm.. i often set the lock before to play all those brainstorm, and if i didn't locked my opponent, surely a brainstorm never resolve the problems.. moreover, i need the presence of another counter as mana leak: now i have 8 good counter, 1 tutorable and the same number of blue spell to get efficient my FOW..

3) i always wanna play with 60 cards deck :D and in this way the deck seems really really solid, more than ever..

i wanna ask to other player if they feel the same thing i do, or if they never need changes..

i also wanna ask reports of the tournament if someone played with this deck, to see the gooddess and the matters of ATS against all other decks..

thanks..

PS: sorry for my bad english, i'm an italian lover of ATS [love]

imran
05-03-2005, 10:19 AM
As far as I can see everybody is fine with the changes Diablos made.

I have just a few questions:

1. You removed one Wall of Roots for the Wood Elves. Did you never had any type of problem with Aggro?

2. Regarding Masticore vs Deranged Hermit: You that controlling the board is the first target. After that you can easily attack for 10+ with each of your creatures. Why dont you just attack for 9 damage without controlling the board? Maybe it sounds weird, but its like a backup win. Compareable to the softlock of Mystic Snake. Not really neccessary but nice to have.

MattH
05-03-2005, 01:52 PM
Maybe it sounds weird, but its like a backup win. Compareable to the softlock of Mystic Snake. Not really neccessary but nice to have.
If it's not necessary, cut it. This is the most important lesson in the school of building good decks.

Di
05-03-2005, 02:30 PM
1. You removed one Wall of Roots for the Wood Elves. Did you never had any type of problem with Aggro?

2. Regarding Masticore vs Deranged Hermit: You that controlling the board is the first target. After that you can easily attack for 10+ with each of your creatures. Why dont you just attack for 9 damage without controlling the board? Maybe it sounds weird, but its like a backup win. Compareable to the softlock of Mystic Snake. Not really neccessary but nice to have.

1. I removed Wall of Roots because I wanted to keep the amount of accelerants the same. Wood Elves gets the Taiga, and although it isn't a hefty 0/5, it can still block, which helps. But in those situations, getting Taiga enables you to get the boost to stop the aggro rush through the Tradewind lock.

2. When I'm attacking 10+, it's all with creatures that aren't big, such as Tradewinds, Ranger, Witness, Snake, etc, so if I'm not controlling the board, it's assumed they have creatures as well to block. It's easy to just get rid of threats, and then just smash for the win.

imran
05-03-2005, 03:50 PM
@ Diablos

1. If you use the Wood Elved to accelerate the whole deck strategy, why don't you also think about adding a second Taiga. Or maybe a Gaea's Cradle. The Wood Elves are all about speed, the question is, why not exaggerating the whole theme in the deck?

2. I know, that, if you would attack with all your creatures, they are not going to be really huge, thus easy to block. I just thought about the Hermit as a second Win Option, without wasting turns while taking control of the board.

As far as I know, the main strategy is to bounce threats and lands to lock the opponent. Even if you have a Tradewind Rider and a Seedborn Muse, it will take several turns to control the board. What if you just Suicide Attack with the Hermit for 9 Damage forcing the opponent to use his already tight sources to block the gang? Even if he would block the Hermit, just bounce it back, or recur it with Genesis. Although it will take some Mana Sources from ATS Side it is still possible to cast a Hermit, bounce it back Recast it and Attack for 17 Damage!
Honestly, I think thats nothing to laugh at.
Please correct me, if I am totally wrong.

bigredmeanie
05-03-2005, 04:07 PM
In the 7 pages of this thread, I think that adding hermit has been brought up like 5 times. Myself being 1 of them. And every time there are a few for it and a few against it. But in the end, once you get used to playing the deck you realize that there is not an easy thing to cut in order to add the Herrmit, and you really just don't need it that bad. But otherwise, sure, Hermit is a perfectly acceptable creature. run it if you like.

B is for Big Job
05-03-2005, 04:08 PM
The point of the deck is to be a lock 1st and aggro 2nd. The deck list is already tight for card spaces and even the possibility of the uneeded hermit there isnt anything in the deck that should be cut. Even though it takes a long time to control the board, your opponent, if hes not an ass, will probably scoop unless they have some sort of answer to the lock.

I do agree that running 2 taigas is a good idea, but this deck is already running heavy on the non-basics, and making the mana base weaker and more susceptible to wasteland.

If you want to play a survival deck that is aggro control, you should just play r/g survival advantage.

BoTS
05-03-2005, 04:40 PM
1. If you use the Wood Elved to accelerate the whole deck strategy, why don't you also think about adding a second Taiga. Or maybe a Gaea's Cradle. The Wood Elves are all about speed, the question is, why not exaggerating the whole theme in the deck?

2. I know, that, if you would attack with all your creatures, they are not going to be really huge, thus easy to block. I just thought about the Hermit as a second Win Option, without wasting turns while taking control of the board.

As far as I know, the main strategy is to bounce threats and lands to lock the opponent. Even if you have a Tradewind Rider and a Seedborn Muse, it will take several turns to control the board. What if you just Suicide Attack with the Hermit for 9 Damage forcing the opponent to use his already tight sources to block the gang? Even if he would block the Hermit, just bounce it back, or recur it with Genesis. Although it will take some Mana Sources from ATS Side it is still possible to cast a Hermit, bounce it back Recast it and Attack for 17 Damage!
Honestly, I think thats nothing to laugh at.
Please correct me, if I am totally wrong.

1. Wood Elves isn't played because its the best accelerator out there. Its played because it allows you to search for Taiga without a fetchland, which makes the card insanely good.

2. Just like many others, you are missing the entire point of the deck. The main strategy of the deck is to lock your opponent with Tradewind and/or Muse and/or Mystic Snake. Once you have complete control of the board, it really doesn't matte what you win with. Hell, On countless occasions when I have the lock set up I when with Goblin beats just for the hell of it (Squee + Sharpshooter = t3h r0xx0rz). Your secondary win condition is shitty creature beats, and that's only when you can't draw/resolve a Survival, so adding 1 Deranged Hermit wouldn't make sense for that strategy anyway.

Look, the point is that you don't need extra fat to finish the job. Many times I have set up the lock when five turns is called, So I just deal around 18 damage in two or three turns with Genesis and random assortments of 1/1's and 2/1's. If you have complete control you can easily deal enough damage to kill quickly because Survival allows you to make any creature in hand a hasted 2 power beater, and these guys really add up.


run it if you like.

That's the sort of attitude that results in bad decks, bad players, and many a wasted $5-30 entry fee. Saying "run it if you like" is what you tell a stupid noob who thinks Shlivers (noobs always fucking mispronounce that word and add an "h" because they have sppech impedements brought on by years of eating paste and getting their helds under the toilet water for a bit too long) is the best creature type in the history of Magic. If you want to be competitive and you want to win consistently, you don't play cards because you "like to". You play the optimal cards and cut the ones that are suboptimal even if they are good.

On another note, this past week I decided to pull ATS out of the woodwork simply because I missed the old lug, and made a few changes before the tournament. I cut Masticore because I really haven't been liking this card that much, not to mention that I no longer think its needed. I also cut Gilded Drake due to the fact that our metagame consists of mostly Goblins, Control, and Combo, although on a number of occasions that day I ended up wishing I left him in. I added a Wood Elves and cut the deck to 61. For reference, here is the list in its entirety:

Spells //
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Enlightened Tutor

Lands//
4 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
2 Savannah

Creatures//
4 Tradewind Rider
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Mystic Snake
1 Spore Frog
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Wood Elves

I loved Wood Elves. I feel stupid for never including it before. It made getting haste a lot more reliable, slightly improved acceleration, and the fact that the land came into play meant getting an end of turn Survival activation after tapping out to play it turn 3. I missed Gilded Drake, and I almost feel its needed if not for the extra blue card. I really hated having to Survival for, then Remove Tradewinds to FoW (I rarely remove the Snake unless I have to). I am now currently considering one of the two options: a) cut something, put Drake back in; or b) cut something, add Snake number 2. My reasoning for choice b is that Mystic Snake is so solid in the deck, and has saved my ass so my times that I have often pondered adding a second.

The Professional N00b
05-12-2005, 11:23 PM
Ok, BoTS, I honestly feel that you should find room for drake because he is the shit against almost all aggro decks. And when I played ATS last weekend I was honestly in trouble vs. Gro when I all I could do was block and bounce I would have much rather have stolen my opponents critters. If I would cut anything it would probably be -1 Quirien Ranger +1 Gilded Drake.
Just my 2 cents.
-Professional N00b :)

meepoo2
05-16-2005, 03:29 AM
Hey guys, do you know of any creatures to board in for help in the combo matchup? I know Rule of Law and Arcane Lab are basically both GG, but you can't fetch them with survival. All I can think of is Glowrider, but do y'all have any better ideas?

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-16-2005, 03:53 AM
Dosan the Falling Leaf and Ichewhatever Druid(Legends) are good against Solidarity. Meddling Mage is good but somewhat tricky to support.

If you're running Enlightened Tutor, you also have access to artifact and enchantment hate as well, remember. Null Rod and Tormod's Crypt spring to mind.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-16-2005, 04:29 AM
Nova Cleric is good against Solitaire-Enchantress, Glowrider is good against every combo essentially, Hokori, Dust Drinker might be good against Solitaire but has that nasty whole WW thing going on. Avalanche Riders and Viridian Shaman/Sex Monkies can occasionally be useful mana screwing storm based combo. Ouphe Vandals is the savage technology against Belcher.

Di
05-16-2005, 03:39 PM
Hey guys, do you know of any creatures to board in for help in the combo matchup? I know Rule of Law and Arcane Lab are basically both GG, but you can't fetch them with survival. All I can think of is Glowrider, but do y'all have any better ideas?

The simple, short answer: Creatures aren't as good at dealing with combo. Meddling Mage is all. That's it. And even then, it's casting cost makes me reject it from the deck. Glowrider? I see Solidarity laugh at it. I've seen, and personally played Solidarity sitting across from Trinisphere as well as multiple Sphere of Resistance. It isn't that big of a deal for the deck. Other combo decks, such as Belcher, are much easier solved by Null Rod. There isn't any creature that deals with the deck like that. Brown Ouphe, sure, but it isn't nearly as good as Rod. Enchantress? Nova Cleric is a possibility, except for the fact that it's utterly useless if Humility is already in play. Tranquil Grove wipes out their entire board while you only lose a Survival tops.

According to the thread that was locked, you questioned Choke, Absolute Law, and In the Eye of Chaos, 3 cards dedicated to fighting the red and control matches. If you find creatures that do a better job, you'll recieve a kudos. The fact that the deck is Survival-based doesn't mean it has to entirely revolve around it. You run Enlightened Tutor as well. Why not abuse the hell out of it? If it's only purpose is to fetch Survival, you're playing the card incorrectly.

Jeztr1207
05-16-2005, 05:50 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Hey here are some new cards from the upcoming set that might be really good in the control matchup. Michiko konda truth seeker 3w creature 2/2 (when a source an opponent deals damage to you that player sacrifices a permanent), Promise of Bunrei 2w enchantment(Whenever a creature you control is put into a graveyard from play you may sacrifice Promise of Bunrei. If you do, put four 1/1 colourless spirit tokens into play), Erayto, Soratami Ascendant 1U flying (Whenever you play a spell, if you have played more then 4 spells this turn, flip Upper-Rank Moonfolk.)(Legendary Enchanment Counter the first spell each opponent plays each turn.)[/color:post_uid1]

GRAH
05-16-2005, 09:04 PM
None of those are very good for ATS. Any Mono-Red deck or RGSA (AKA, what Michiko is generally good against) is going to just burn Michiko out before they strike the head. Promise of Bunrei is strictly inferior to Deranged Hermit, and that isn't played much. And Erayo doesn't actually work against Solidarity. It's not fast enough.

meepoo2
05-17-2005, 03:20 AM
Has anyone tried true believer? It seems like it has potential, but the manacost, like that of so many interesting cards, appears somewhat prohibitive.

Di
05-17-2005, 07:51 AM
Has anyone tried true believer? It seems like it has potential, but the manacost, like that of so many interesting cards, appears somewhat prohibitive.


Why? True Believer doesn't stop or slow down Solidarity at all, considering they just go nuts the Cunning Wish-> Chain of Vapor, and Belcher can just hit Believer eoT and then Belcher your face on their turn and win. It's only purpose I see is against long-esque combo, which is awful in the format.

bigguyinblack
05-18-2005, 02:36 PM
Well the full spoiler is out and it is time to look at the new cards that may be included into ATS.

Kataki, War's Wage 1W
Legendary Creature - Spirit
All artifacts have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this artifact unless you pay 1.".
2/1
Blown away by Null Rod or Energy Flux as long as we're running E-Tutor.

Nikko-Onna 2W
Creature - Spirit
When Nikko-Onna comes into play, destroy target enchantment.
Whenever you play a Spirit or Arcane spell, you may return Nikko-Onna to its owner's hand.
2/2
Not a total joke as a replacement to the Kami as we run 5 Spirit's maindeck and Naturalize could be replaced by Wear Away or Rending Vines. Still the extra colorless is a pain.

Arashi, the Sky Asunder 3GG
Legendary Creature - Spirit
XG, T: Arashi deals X damage to target creature with flying.
Channel XGG, discard Arashi: Arashi deals X damage to each creature with flying.
5/5
A possible answer to madness decks but pretty pricey.

Rending Vines 1GG
Instant - Arcane
Destroy target artifact or enchantment with converted mana cost equal or lower than the number of cards in your hand.
Draw a card.
You will usually be able to destroy whatever you want with this but the cc may make it too slow.

Pithing Needle 1
As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card.
Activated abilities of the named cardcan't be played unless they're mana abilities.
Possible sb tech vs other Survival decks and maybe vs other decks as well.

That's all I can think of that is on color, Not massivly overcosted for it's effect or has too dificult restrictions such as the new Legendary flip cards.

bigredmeanie
05-18-2005, 04:36 PM
It's too bad that none of the Channel abilities were very good. The green one and the red one seem somewhat playable as an uncounterable source of damage at instant speed.

meepoo2
05-18-2005, 05:44 PM
Has anyone tried true believer? It seems like it has potential, but the manacost, like that of so many interesting cards, appears somewhat prohibitive.


Why? True Believer doesn't stop or slow down Solidarity at all, considering they just go nuts the Cunning Wish-> Chain of Vapor, and Belcher can just hit Believer eoT and then Belcher your face on their turn and win. It's only purpose I see is against long-esque combo, which is awful in the format.
As I understood it, belcher was often dependent on lion's eye diamond or other one-shot accellerants for mana to activate the winz. If they've got more than one, then sure. But if they don't, they'll have to draw one.

On another note, pithing needle could be interesting against belcher, but it's just less effective than null rod, so no dice.

Di
05-18-2005, 05:49 PM
Quote (Diablos @ May 17 2005,3:51)
Quote
Has anyone tried true believer? It seems like it has potential, but the manacost, like that of so many interesting cards, appears somewhat prohibitive.



Why? True Believer doesn't stop or slow down Solidarity at all, considering they just go nuts the Cunning Wish-> Chain of Vapor, and Belcher can just hit Believer eoT and then Belcher your face on their turn and win. It's only purpose I see is against long-esque combo, which is awful in the format.

As I understood it, belcher was often dependent on lion's eye diamond or other one-shot accellerants for mana to activate the winz. If they've got more than one, then sure. But if they don't, they'll have to draw one.


As a Belcher player, I know that's far from the truth. LED and other one-shots are necessary only for the turn 1-2 kill. Past that, the deck normally has permanent mana sources, such as Chrome Mox, Birds of Paradise, or land. Not to mention, Goblin Welder can just throw LED back into play to be used again.

meepoo2
05-18-2005, 05:51 PM
As a Belcher player, I know that's far from the truth. LED and other one-shots are necessary only for the turn 1-2 kill. Past that, the deck normally has permanent mana sources, such as Chrome Mox, Birds of Paradise, or land. Not to mention, Goblin Welder can just throw LED back into play to be used again.
Could not that one extra turn buy you enough time to tradewind rider some crap and shut them down permanently, though?

Di
05-18-2005, 09:20 PM
Could not that one extra turn buy you enough time to tradewind rider some crap and shut them down permanently, though?

Possibly, but it's rather difficult, considering they are doing this all between turns 1-3. Null Rod and Naturalize, or Uktabi Orangutan, on the other hand, do give us that time. During this time, it's much too difficult to get True Believer(whom which this discussion is actually about), due to so few white sources and Believer only being a one-of.

Jeztr1207
05-23-2005, 03:57 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]How about pardiac miner it kills landstill and most other decks if you can get the lock going. It works like spore frog but for lands.[/color:post_uid1]

Efreet
05-31-2005, 10:01 AM
i think that eventually orcish settlers would be a better choice, but really i never need this kind of creature against landstill.. in my place there are a lot of standstill and scepter deck, and my sideboard with 3 choke, 2 null rod and 2 naturalize is really really enough to win 2-0 every match against those.. you simply have to change your view on the match and your style when playing: every spell you play is a bomb they must counter, and you only need a resolved choke to win the game without too much problems..

i would like to show you another problem for ATS.. there is a deck that seems to be the worst match-up ever..

somebody calls the deck "eon hub apocalypse", but is known commonly with "EBA".. the deck has the following cards that ruins our days with ATS:

4 duress
4 meddling mage
4 counterspell
4 FOW
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
4 finkel
4 wasteland
2 crucible

as you can imagine, i never can resolve an early Soft to improve my game.. moreover, my mana base often is broken by wasteland and Stp for the first mana-creature..

really i can't find a solution to this match-up.. even using the sideboard, choke isn't so risolutive, and other gaundlet aren't usefull.. consider also their sideboard: 4 planar void and now also 4 pithing needle..

conclusions: in the first and in the second turn of the game (the more important for us..) we have to fight with duress, Stp, meddling, counter and fow.. and if they play with sideboard we add planar void and pithing needle.. this is very very disruptive, and this is why i think we never can win against this kind of deck..

i'd like to know if where you play there are similar decks if not the same, and how you play to have a solutions..

i hate this deeeeeeeeck :angry:

Please use proper capitalization (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) in your posts. Thanks. -Zilla

bigredmeanie
06-01-2005, 04:17 PM
Let me explain. ATS has a horrible mana base. It is dependent on it's creatures for a majority of the mana it needs, and runs too few lands to reliably make land drops. Therefore any deck that can attack the mana base with both Wasteland and creature removal as well as have some form of disruption, either in counterspells or early hand disruption, will naturally have at least a 50/50 matchup versus any Survival deck, and better against the slower ones like ATS.

In our metagame, Survival hangs on the coat tails of the number of decks running more than 4 removal spells in addition to Wasteland.

There is a core set of cards that put in any deck will yeild good results vs Survival of the Fittest.

Fire/Ice
Bolt
Wasteland
Fow
Daze
Duress
Therapy

If the deck has a decent clock, they will probably be able to put 20 damage across almost completely undisrupted.

As an avid Survival player, I am disapointed in how the deck seems to lose to a turn 2 Fire/Ice turn 3 Wasteland and oh yea Daze that Survival you play on your turn 2 with no mana critters.

So the moral of the story, board cheap answers to the problem you face in your metagame.

Efreet
06-02-2005, 10:49 AM
i'm agree with you but i wanna focus a problem..

the real fact is:

duress is not a problem: you can play brainstorm hiding the survival.. you can tutor one as an answer.. you can use a eternal witness to get back.. your opponent play 4 duress so 4/60 of a deck, but you MUST have one of those so you have 8-10/60 answer.. if not, better mulligan :)

swords to plowshares: is better a sword targetting bird or rider?? even if you are not agree with me, i think that one bird less is not the problem 'cause if the rider hit the board you probably feel very very good.. i talk about my tests...

fire/ice: in my area i don't see any of this, but when i face against i can easily recover..

counters: if they have counter you have too.. but you can flood them with your critter.. simply in game 2 sideboard out spore frog, anger, muse and other anti-creature tech to improve your efficiency.. no problem against counter..

wasteland: this is really boring, more if followed by an early crucible.. but you have something that can save you: quirion ranger!! if you play it defending from removal you will never have the problem of a bad mana base..

the biggest problem is..

MEDDLING MAGE!!!!

no way to deal with it.. a second turn mage on Sotf is always game cause you have no way to tutorize your removal.. only a lucky early masticore can save you, in the other cases you will always lose...

this deck is played by a my teammate, so we played about 100000000 matches.. results?? me 15-85 him... post sideboard i don't tell 0-100 because i start cry....

solutions???... bhà....

bigredmeanie
06-02-2005, 01:22 PM
If Meddling Mage is really the only problem you have, than you can board something like Seal of Fire. It's an enchantement, and only costs R. That way you can get it via Etutor to kill the Mage and play the Survival in 1 turn.

The problem I have withATS is that, like you are showing, is its incredible dependent on Survival. W/o one it's very difficult to win.

If you play a turn 1 bird, it is to their bennifit to kill it before you can use it, Every time. As far as tradewind is concerned, It only does anything if you have 2 creatures in play when you cast him. So if your opponent can keep your creatures off the board, with something as simple as Grim Lavamancer, than he will not be scared of Tradewind when one does resolve.

I have also had bad matchups vs GB aggro-control decks. Between Duress, Therapy, Wasteland, Edict, Deed, and Naturalize and Withered Wretch in the board, I can seldom win in 3.

Di
06-02-2005, 03:51 PM
Let me explain. ATS has a horrible mana base. It is dependent on it's creatures for a majority of the mana it needs, and runs too few lands to reliably make land drops. Therefore any deck that can attack the mana base with both Wasteland and creature removal as well as have some form of disruption, either in counterspells or early hand disruption, will naturally have at least a 50/50 matchup versus any Survival deck, and better against the slower ones like ATS.


This is what one of those extrodinary ideas, known as a sideboard is for. I have never, not once, lost to Sligh piloting ATS, and yet it's entire deck is composed of Mountain, Wasteland, and cards that kill mana producers. Why is this? Because ATS is designed to work around hate. It fights hate with hate. They want to send red spells to my critters, I throw Absolute Law in their face. They want to tap lands to cast Wrath of God, Back to Basics is played the following turn. For nearly every problem, and I do stress nearly, ATS has an answer for. Sometimes the deck can't recover, but then again, no deck can perfectly recover every bad situation.


MEDDLING MAGE!!!!

no way to deal with it.. a second turn mage on Sotf is always game cause you have no way to tutorize your removal.. only a lucky early masticore can save you, in the other cases you will always lose...

Although I disagree Mage is the biggest problem, it certainly can be a problem. The fact that ATS doesn't have a cheap way of removing Mage other than countering it makes it a concern.


this deck is played by a my teammate, so we played about 100000000 matches.. results?? me 15-85 him... post sideboard i don't tell 0-100 because i start cry....

If you're losing post-sideboard matchups against a deck that is forced to run a manabase situating heavily in 3 colors you aren't sideboarding correctly. Go up to 4 Back to basics if you must, because I can't recall you noting he ran Disenchant..at all.


The problem I have withATS is that, like you are showing, is its incredible dependent on Survival. W/o one it's very difficult to win.


A common misconception. The deck is, and i will state this another thousand times, not entirely dependant on Survival. Yes, if it's in play for more than a turn, chances of losing are rather slim. However, you have just as much of an opportunity to draw Survival that you do Tradewind Rider. People seriously underestimate the effects Tradewind Rider has on games. He's essentially a double-blocker, has a huge ass, and essentially makes the rest of your permanents safe. Although his requirements are a bit more than Survival, it is a house to draw.

You people need to understand this deck more fully if you actually plan on being successful with it.

bigguyinblack
06-02-2005, 06:59 PM
Of course once Pithing Needles starts showing up in everyones SB on general principle we will need to both up the artifact destruction and make the main deck better without SotF. That card is awsome against ATS and is versatile enough to hit other decks as well. Any ideas on how to stop it?

troopatroop
06-02-2005, 09:16 PM
If Pithing needle gets annoying we could go back to using sylvan library if need be. It, essentially, would make the deck have another way to get massive advantage outside of survival. I always liked the card but there is absolutely no room left for it anymore...

SB Seal of cleansing/Naturalize?

Tradewind rider certainly deals with it nicely, and when you factor in the MB Uktabi, 3 enlightened tutors, and SB seal of cleansing, you've got about 9-10 outs to deal with the needle. That is after the 4 forces for protection and 4 brainstorm to dig for it all.

It shouldn't absolutely hose the deck.

I agree with diablos on the dependence of survival. Not only is it incredibly easy to get survival with the search, it is also FAR from neccesary. When you don't have a Survival in hand you either have utter shit (that you should have thrown away) or a quality Tradewind hand. 3rd turn Tradewind has won me SO many games its unbelievable. You then just wait until you draw a Ranger, Seedborn, Masticore, or Even another Tradewind to just win the game. He's right. You don't need survival to win.

bigguyinblack
06-02-2005, 11:48 PM
Here's the thing. Other deck's have search also and the second Pithing Needles can name Seal of Cleansing or Tradewind if they don't have removal.

I'm not saying the sky is falling but I'm definitely feeling shorter.

Di
06-03-2005, 01:18 AM
Here's the thing. Other deck's have search also and the second Pithing Needles can name Seal of Cleansing or Tradewind if they don't have removal.

I'm not saying the sky is falling but I'm definitely feeling shorter.

It's essentially a Meddling Mage that's easier to remove. If they do come in large numbers, I can predict an increase in Naturalize in sideboards. I currently run 2, and would possibly move to 3, or rather use a sideboard Seal of Cleansing as a bullet for Tutor. Unfortunately, that sideboard is just as tight as the maindeck, so it could become problematic to slip it in.

Efreet
06-03-2005, 04:58 AM
i'm agree that pithing needle is a minor problem.. you can remove in many ways even if it take you time to do it..

meddling mage is bad 'cause you have no way to take it out from the board outside card like masticore and tradewind that are too slow..

good idea running the red seal, but is one-shot :(..

i repeat, i play this deck since several years, and now thanks to my experience i can't lose to deck like sligh, goblin, affinity.. even rock (for rock i talk about duress/cabal + disruption + withered..) is not a problem.. and i understand with time that survival is not so necessary against certain deck: land bird go- land wall go- tradewind.. stop! they lose cause can't touch you no more..

the point i would like to focalize is:

against sligh or goblin you put in absolute law: and you win only because red decks have not DISENCHANT effects.. so you easily win..

against EBA (that also run disenchant x4 in the sideboard, i didn't tell you simply because disenchant is never a problem to me..) you have no fast recover from an early meddling so you lose too much time to find different solutions..

actually i run maindeck grim lavamancer, masticore and ticking gnomes!! yes, ticking gnomes to stop shadowmage.. the only problem the EBA player has, is that if he doesn't draw advantage from finkel, is very good time for us.. and that's why sometimes i win..

every tournament my deck go 2-0, 2-0, 2-0 draw.. top4 2-0 and in final i take this deck and pray.. if he doesn't pass top4, i easily win 2-0 also the final.. i repeat, i have enough experience with the deck to sideboard good..

simply i'm saying that EBA is the worst match-up actually for our deck.. because ATS has easy answer to every other deck existing..

GRAH
06-03-2005, 06:43 PM
Of course once Pithing Needles starts showing up in everyones SB on general principleIt won
It won't. Simply saying, there is nothing Pithing Needle can effectively do that won't be done by Null Rod or the deck being played. Any deck that can afford to play Pithing Needle against ATS should already have a decent matchup versus ATS. The only exception I can think of is Angel Stompy, and I don't think it has the space for Needle anyway. I wouldn't consider it a future threat to this deck.

Efreet
06-07-2005, 06:21 AM
i think pithing will be a problem if played by every deck.. the reason is that is moooooooore better than rod against ATS.. but i also think that will never be a real problem: we have lots of removal for artifact, so we can handle it.. i repeat the bigger problem of the deck is that we don't have creature-removal independing of survival..

OBEY. (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) -Zilla

Slay
06-07-2005, 08:01 PM
The problem with Pithing Needle is that it actually is a problem, not so much because the deck can't operate outside of Survival but because the simple I-win aspect of untapping with Survival can lead to substandard hands being kept that put you right into topdeck mode on turn 2. Consider the following hand:

Forest
Birds of Paradise
Seedborn Muse
Rofellos
Windswept Heath
Survival of the Fittest
Brainstorm

Is this hand a keeper? Yes. It has a Birds -> Survival, meaning that it is definitely a fourth turn Tradewind with fifth turn Muse on the way down. Now suppose your opponent drops a Pithing Needle first turn. You can Brainstorm/Fetchland second turn, but unless you find a Tradewind or a Sex Monkey or a Masticore, your game is going to go downhill fast. Simply put, the hand above is stupid good, but a turn 1 Needle threw your game way off balance. As I pointed out in the Pithing Needle thread in Open, ATS actually has very little threats, but it's backed up by such a powerful engine that it can play iwht such. The threats are:

Masticore
Tradewind Rider
Genesis
1x appropriate hate card(In this case, Sex Monkey)

Without Survival, these are the cards that the deck has to use to win the game. That's a very short list, and it's backed up by little countermagic. If a deck is able to shut down Survival without Survival having a backup plan in hand, it's probably going to be boned unless you topdeck like a god. And I'm not even going to go into how they could Duress/Therapy you and lay a Needle next turn for either Survival or Tradewind or whatever depending on your hand.

What I think could be done:
-multiple seals of cleansing in the sideboard. This seems the most logical step, as they are fairly good against quite a bit of the field.
-fatties in the sideboard. Masticore and its spikey brother are game-swinging forces against most aggro decks that can't immediately deal with it, and with the mana acceleration we should be able to consistently turn 3 and turn 4 big meanies. And against a deck that's siding out threats for hate cards, you can one-up them by siding out hate cards for threats.

It's possibly workable, but I would be hesitant about making those chagnes. Pithing needle is a threat, however, and it really must be factored in, especially when you're talking about random.dec with a clock that's just a little slower than yours.
- Slay

Solomox
06-07-2005, 10:56 PM
Needle is a complement to other disruption in a format such as this, where many cards you play are high-impact. A Needle on its own will inconvienence you, but will hardly stop you cold.

In that particular hand, you still have Seedborn and Rofellos, which is set up by turn 3 meaning anything drawn after that will hit the table and make an impact immediatley. A Pithing Needle is far from the end of the world.

Slay
06-07-2005, 11:10 PM
But the point I'm trying to make is, that even if you have the most ridiculous mana engine in the world, if you don't have any gas, you're going to fold to any kind of decent clock. Pithing Needle has the potential to thoroughly wreck a hand without any decent threats besides a second-turn Survival. After that it's just mop-up until you pray to TD a threat. That's a bad state of affairs to be in, if oyu ask me.
:Slay:

troopatroop
06-17-2005, 11:27 PM
On that hand you would use Brainstorm with Birds mainphase and shuffle survival and a bad card away with the sac-land if he played needle. You would then have card advantage because he wasted his first turn and a card on something you no longer care about. You should also have brainstormed into a Tradewind Rider or something else halfway decent. All you had to do in that situation is not use brainstorm like an idiot...

Just sayin

Efreet
06-18-2005, 06:13 AM
troopatroop you're right but you're talking only about a single situation.. in this case (as everytime, not only in this case..) obviously you have to play the cards in your hand in the best way you can, but sometimes its not enough..

in the most of cases, needle is only one of the "bomb" your opponent will play to waste our time: a first turn needle means that you for the rest of the game can't search answer for other threats your opponent will play, unless you're so lucky that you draw it..

so what i think is that the problem is not needle itself.. but what happen AFTER the needle..

are all you agree?




PS: excuse my english, i'm not so good..

B is for Big Job
06-19-2005, 01:51 AM
That and the fact that in game 2 Needle is either going to be either a. countered or b. blown to hell with sex monkey or naturalize, which is something that can be done 1st game.

edgarps_22
06-19-2005, 03:24 AM
I would be hesitant to assume that you will resolve a Uktabi Orangutan, or a Naturalize. The biggest threat that the needle poses, is when it is played in a contol or aggro/control deck. Any deck of those two archetypes have a slower clock, but will most definately have a counterspell ready to stop whtaever your plan B is. Imagine this situation. I play turn 1 Needle, with Force of Will backup. If you did not use a Force of Will of your own, I now have the situation well in hand, and will draw into everything I need, while you are kept shut down.

The Pithing Needle will not be the undoing of Survival of the Fittest. It is instead the Pithing Needle combined with a deck that is just a hair slower than yours, that now just bought the few turns it needs to win. I can say that it is a rare occasion in which a Control player will not have a Force of Will back-up. For some reason they usually do.

Basically, if a control-type deck lays down a Pithing Needle in the early game, it is almost game. Not because of the Needle itself, but because all your resources will now go towards removing it, or towards a diferent Kill condition which is far more disruptable.. This situation allows the Control player to simply let you over-extend and use up all your resources trying to remove a roadblock, then kill you when they draw their kill condition.

Raider Bob
06-19-2005, 12:49 PM
Pithing Needle is a good card, and it is a card that is a hoser for several decks. That being said every deck in the format has some sort of hoser and has to play around it this is no different of a situation it just may make ATS teir 1.5 instead of teir 1 and that still has yet to be determined.

edgarps_22
06-19-2005, 10:11 PM
Agreed. But now I wonder what needs to change in the decklist to deal with a Pithing Needle. Ideas have been thrown around, but ATS is such a tight list. What could be cut for say, more Naturalizes. Naturalize seems to be the best way to go to deal with this threat. It is cheap and efficient, but what should be cut for it in the Side Board?

troopatroop
06-20-2005, 10:51 AM
Why would you change the mainboard to deal with a sideboard card? Just side in the Naturalizes/Seal of Cleansings in games 2 and 3. I really don't think the needle is going to do much damage. If you think it is, up the Naturalize/Seal count in the board to 3 or 4.

A Card From Sok caught my attention

Reverence WW2

Creatures with power 2 or less can't attack you

That stops Vial Goblins cold, outside of Seige Gang Commander. Should this be run? Is the double white in the Casting cost too much? Does Silent arbiter fill this spot already?

bigredmeanie
06-20-2005, 11:11 AM
Reverence WW2


Well, double white is to hard for this deck to reach in my opinion, and hardly stops goblins at all. Sharpshooter still kills you regardless. As for Silent Arbiter, at 4 it essentially does the exact same thing as reverence, but is delt with much easier. Neither one is really a very good answer. Masticore, or our own Sharpshooter are really the best answers to goblins.

Slay
06-20-2005, 02:31 PM
Personally, against a Pithing Needle-filled environment, I'd play 2x masticore in the sideboard. Most decks that would want to play Pithing Needle are decks that want to use it to generate tempo, and getting a third-turn masticore is a giant stinking turd in their punchbowl, tempo-wise. Not to mention it's fetchable with Enlightened Tutor.
-Slay

MattH
06-20-2005, 03:17 PM
But now I wonder what needs to change in the decklist to deal with a Pithing Needle...Naturalize seems to be the best way to go to deal with this threat.
The best way to deal with Needle is, of course, to convince your opponent not to play with it.

quicksilver
06-20-2005, 03:38 PM
Reverence WW2

Creatures with power 2 or less can't attack you

That stops Vial Goblins cold, outside of Seige Gang Commander. Should this be run? Is the double white in the Casting cost too much? Does Silent arbiter fill this spot already?

If you wanted to try something like this you could take a look at Sphere of Law.

3W

If a red source would deal damage to you, prevent 2 of that damage.

The single white makes it easier to play, and it stops siege-gang and sharpshooter. All you have to worry about is pile driver, which you can block with 2 power to neutralize it.

Efreet
06-30-2005, 06:22 AM
i tested a lot against VialGoblin and i founded that there's nothing better than absolute law + worship..

you can easily find both of them by survival and eternal witness for tutor, and surely you are faster than their open hand..

i have another question..

what are your sideboard changes against landstill/scepter chant??

my sideboard is this:

1 worship
1 absolute law
1 arcane lab
2 choke
1 back to basics
2 naturalize
1 seal of cleansing
2 null rod
1 spike feeder
1 dawnstrider
2 metaslot..

and my changes are:

+2 choke
+2 naturalize
+2 null rod (against tormod disks scepter in 2°match..)

-1 anger
-2 wall of roots
-1 wood elves
-1 seedborn muse
-1 enlightened tutor

what do you think? i leave in gilded drake to get angel or dragon, and also the genesis+frog lock to resist decrees..

what are your choices??

troopatroop
07-02-2005, 11:48 PM
Why on heaven's earth would you ever side out anger... in ANY matchup. The wall of roots can go. The Guilded drake can go, because you will have time to deal with Angel/Dragon in this matchup. 4 of your sideboard cards are fetchable with enlightened tutor, why side one out? Against scepter chant I take a ranger out and against landstill I keep them both in due to CrucibleWaste ownage. Also, Why side in Null Rod against landstill? You stop Disk... BFD. Uktabi already does that.

The thing that really stuck out was siding out anger... That's a No No.

Di
07-03-2005, 02:22 AM
Those sideboarding swaps are awful.

Never, EVER remove Anger. He's the reason the deck ticks, and if you get your Survival engine going, you're going to basically deprive yourself of winning the game by doing that, essentially slow your game down by a full turn, maybe two, each time you play something that isn't hasted. That's a terrible mistake.

Removing Seedborn Muse is also a mistake, because it's part of the combo core. Although the Tradewind lock is a lot weaker in these matchups, if you're able to get it you win the game. Or if they're able to deal with it through WoG or StP, you still slow their development, giving you a slight edge. Enlightened Tutor also stays in. You're adding in Choke and Null Rod, so I don't understand why you'd remove cards that get it.

Leaving in Gilded Drake is understandable, I do it myself, because Angel is annoying as Hell, but Froglock post-board? Please. If the Landstill player doens't side out Decree against a creature-heavy deck like ATS then they aren't playing Landstill correctly. Even if they do keep it, play Masticore and just win. Not too hard.

Also, board in Back to Basics in that matchup. They still run at least 13 non-basic lands in Tundra, Factory, Wasteland, and Conclave, so resolving it is sinister to their development and if they can't deal with it quickly you can easily seal up victory.


As far as Vial Goblins goes, I've never really had a big deal about it. They run 1, maybe 2 Sharpshooters maindeck, so the likeliness of them having one before you go retarded is slim, and other than ridiculous starts involving Goblin Lackey, it isn't too bad to stop their early rush with Wall of Roots. Post-board depends on their build. If they run the black splash, they can't stop Worship at all, but have access to Perish, but still can't win with Worship on table, the green splash has Naturalize only, which is annoying, and white has Disenchant and StP, which is the most problematic of the them. Mono-red is much better than the rest, as they have no means of killing mass amounts of creatures without killing their own, and are owned by Absolute Law.

EDIT:

Also, Why side in Null Rod against landstill? You stop Disk... BFD. Uktabi already does that.


Disk isn't as much of a deal over cards like Tormod's Crypt. Removing Genesis is bad, very bad.

Efreet
07-03-2005, 05:35 AM
in fact the problem isn't what to take in.. is what to put out.. i side out anger cause with the graveyard hate post-board often is a "dead" card.. muse is good but is a threat with 5 mana cost that need a rider in play to be really effective.. my strategy is to flood my opponent with all must-counter spell, so they have no way to control all the board..

so i also understand your choices, but what do you put out to insert rod, Btb, disenchant effects..??

Nightmare
07-03-2005, 12:13 PM
+2 Null Rod
+1 B2B
+2 Choke

-1 Lyrist/Kami
-2 WoR
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Spore Frog

That's probably a better sideboard choice. You aren't going to need the lyrist vs. Landstill, chances are they don't have Humility in the board. Wall isn't as important in this matchup, so it can go for the better cards coming in. Wood elves is nice, but at 3 mana, you have better things to do post board, and spore frog isn't that huge, since decree is proabably sided out. Drake and 1 of those cards could be switched, but thats up to you.

MattH
07-03-2005, 12:45 PM
If they run the black splash, they can't stop Worship at all,
Assuming we're talking the Burning Wish builds ported from 1.x, they usually run a sideboarded Tendrils of Agony to get around Worship & similar.

Di
07-03-2005, 03:12 PM
Assuming we're talking the Burning Wish builds ported from 1.x, they usually run a sideboarded Tendrils of Agony to get around Worship & similar.

We aren't, because Burning Wish versions are slow and clunky, at least in my own opinion. Cluttering up the sideboard with slots like Tendrils and other wish targets just makes your bad matchups worse as you decrease the slots intended for specific decks. The only weapon you gain out of black is Patriarch's Bidding to deal with problems like that. The only viable splash option in my opinion for Vial Goblins is white.

Anyway...points topic back on discussion.

ChrisTJs27
07-10-2005, 09:55 PM
This is the version I've been running to moderate success locally (Boston, MA area). I use to play 5CG and incorporated similar ideas since they're very close.

6 Fetch
4 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
=18
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Genesis
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Gilded Drake
2 Merfolk Looter
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Masticore
=26
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Survival of the Fittest
=16 (60)

Basically, I removed the one Mystic Snake, Spore Frog, and an Enlightened Tutor.

I found the Mystic Snake to be to expensive, unecessary, and actually was discarded to FoW most of the time. I know its a soft lock with the sideboard Arcane Lab so I may it again. For now, I find it clunky.

Also, the Spore Frog I've never found necessary. The Walls hold the ground as well as the various other small guys. By turn 4-5 I have the combo going and I've won. Why waste time with a cute trick that doesn't win the game? A four-mana fog just doesn't do it for me.

I cut the Tutor to make 60 cards, though I'd like to work it back in. I've never had a problem finding a Survival, but I want it back for sideboard purposes. However 61 cards is unacceptable.

The Merfolk Looters help keep the cards coming, are an additional way to get Anger in the yard, and can act as Survival's 5 and 6 in a pinch. I also wanted more blue cards for Force of Will.

My current board:
2 Choke
2 Null Rod
1 Dense Foliage
1 Arcane Lab
1 Worship
1 Absolute Law
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Naturalize
1 Metagamer

I'd like to fit a Seal of Cleansing in there, which I can when I get the Tutor main.

Thoughts?

troopatroop
07-10-2005, 10:52 PM
...Listen... Merfolk looter was in very very early versions of the deck and it was awful. What is it going to do? Fix your hand? BFD. You're cutting perfectly good mainboard cards for bad ones that don't belong there. If you want to go to 60 cards, cut the spore frog. He's only good against decks that dont have outs against him, and in the current format thats just about nothing. Saying Mystic snake is unnecessary is just plain stupid. Play the deck more. He will have his uses. Tap out to play seedborn and use the snake on their turn. It's a solid card.

This is before Diablos rips you apart. I tried to be nice :(

ChrisTJs27
07-10-2005, 11:54 PM
What's to rip apart?

I've played the deck a lot actually and even more so recently with the news of a Legacy GP.

I've simply never found a situation which I wanted to spend the mana to tutor for the Snake. Believe me, I really like the idea of being able to SotF for a counter (and I like being able to find a blue card for FoW), but with out Rofellos its really expensive to do that. So I don't see a situation in which I want that. Yes, he does have synergy with Tradewind, but I'd rather be returning all of my opponent's permenants instead of bouncing my Snake - winning the game is better than being cute. I may actually return Snake to the main on my own, but for now, he's to slow for my taste.

As far as the Looters go, they're not there to fix my mana. They're there to keep the cards coming when I don't have a Survival. They're there to turn my dead or useless cards into something potentially better. Brainstorm isn't enough. This deck needs a way to draw, look, or gain card advantage with out Survival. That is my biggest complaint. With out a SotF or a opening grip which can set up Tradewind on its own, you're stuck. I also like having more blue cards for Force, but that's only a small bonus. He's also good against control as well. I just don't see why you don't want him.

The Professional N00b
07-11-2005, 12:08 AM
Yes, he does have synergy with Tradewind, but I'd rather be returning all of my opponent's permenants instead of bouncing my Snake - winning the game is better than being cute
First of all, the first part of your statement was absolutely correct. But, "winning the game is better than being cute."??? ATS is a Lock deck, when you Lock your opponent, you win. Plain and simple. Having the Snake is not just "cute", it's essential. As for the Looter, why? I have to agree with Troopatroop, they were and Still are terrible in the deck.Period.

Citrus-God
07-11-2005, 12:35 AM
...Listen... Merfolk looter was in very very early versions of the deck and it was awful. What is it going to do? Fix your hand? BFD. You're cutting perfectly good mainboard cards for bad ones that don't belong there. If you want to go to 60 cards, cut the spore frog. He's only good against decks that dont have outs against him, and in the current format thats just about nothing. Saying Mystic snake is unnecessary is just plain stupid. Play the deck more. He will have his uses. Tap out to play seedborn and use the snake on their turn. It's a solid card.

This is before Diablos rips you apart. I tried to be nice :(
A card they used before Merfolk Looter was Ophidian.

And Troopatroop is right in terms of the thing with Mystic Snake...

Efreet
07-11-2005, 06:11 AM
who played the deck consistently knows perfectly that mystic snake is a MUST of ATS.. a tutorable counter and playable every turn is too much powerful in our case.. rofellos is not so necessary to play snake, 1GUU: you need only 2 green mana for example, but you need UU that rofellos can't help you anyway..

if you want to cut a card you can keep out something from the meta-slot, you spore frog me kami..

looter is a suboptimal choice: it doesn't give you advantage cause force you to discard something, and sometimes you don't want to discard nothing.. also without anger dies to everything in the format, so probably couldn't work as well as you'd like..

ChrisTJs27
07-17-2005, 03:12 AM
Okay, so I've been testing this deck more and more - the Legacy GP is something I'm VERY excited about.

I reluctantly removed the Merfolk Looters. First just one, then the second. While I miss them a lot actually, they did make room for more necessary cards. They really did help the card quality of my hand, especially when I didn't have a Survival, but did have a Looter. They turned lands into spells and useless creatures into something I needed. With out a Survival in play, all you really have is Brainstorm to at the very least look at extra cards. Now, the deck is even MORE reliant on Survival to win. The good news is, I fit my 3rd Enlightened Tutor (an innovation I'm really happy with) with out going over 60 cards - how could anyone do that?

Anyway, I've still never Survivaled for a Gilded Drake, except for Force of Will food. Shame. I really like this card in this deck and I know it is a necessary evil, but is it possible that the metagame doesn't warrant the Drake's inclusion in this deck? Both Landstill and Solidarity have nothing to steal.

I did put the Mystic Snake back to try it. The only time so far I've wanted it is against Solidarity (haven't tested against Landstill yet). I like the idea of a Survivable counter, but I still am unsure why its so absolutely key.

This is what I have currently:

2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
4 Forest

4 Birds
3 Wall of Roots
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos
1 Wood Elves (very happy with this!)
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mystic Snake
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Masticore or Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Leak
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Survival of the Fittest

Sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Naturalize
1 Dense Foliage
1 Spike Feeder (Ravenous Baloth?)
1 Caller of the Claw (necessary?)
2 Null Rod
1 Worship
1 Absolute Law
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Arcane Lab.
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Silent Arbiter (Propaganda or Dawnstrider?)

Thoughts?

Bargoth
07-22-2005, 03:00 AM
Thoughts?
Looks like the list that Diablos posted a couple months ago...

-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Forest

+1 Wall of Roots
+1 Tiaga

I'm guessing it plays about the same as everyone elses deck. I would use In The Eye Of Chaos on the SB against soldiarity, but Arcane Lab is also a possibility. Other than that your deck looks the same as the "optimized" deck list.

I wouldn't cut Gilded Drake as it serves as the cheapest way to control the larger creatures (Exalted Angel) that Goblin Sharpshooter/ Masticore can't get. Tradewind Rider can serve that purpose too, but I'd rather get a 4/5 spiritlinked flyer on my side of the board then return it to my opponents hand. It is also a Blue card for fueling Force of Will, and it is important to have as many blue cards as you can to make Force of Will function adequetly.

At the same time you could try replacing it with Merfolk Looter or Orphidian or something if you really thought they would help. I feel they are both pretty fragil and overall will probably take too much time to have a big impact on the game. As opposed to Gilded Drake, who can really turn the tables when needed.

R4tX0r
07-27-2005, 06:17 PM
Has anyone thought about running 1 x erayo, soratami ascendant?? It fills a blue slot, its a creature that later turns into an enchantment... eryo goes amazingly well with Arcane Lab as a hard lock/auto win.

Thoughts??

Zilla
07-27-2005, 08:17 PM
What matchups do you suppose Erayo will improve? Solidarity perhaps. But isn't he sort of win more since he's at his most useful once you've already got your lock on?

Lotus2133
07-27-2005, 10:46 PM
Has anyone thought about running 1 x erayo, soratami ascendant?? It fills a blue slot, its a creature that later turns into an enchantment... eryo goes amazingly well with Arcane Lab as a hard lock/auto win.

Thoughts??
I think that any lock you could achieve with Erayo is going to be outdone by a lock with with an ATS. It just seems like a completely useless combo, and doesn't really improve any of the matchups for this deck.

troopatroop
07-28-2005, 09:09 PM
It hurts me to post this, It really does. I have been an avid player of this deck for a long time, but have seen its power fade a bit over the past few monthes. It is played less and less, and it's quantity of positive matchups is shrinking. I do not believe that this deck should be in the LMF any longer. There really aren't many great matchups for this deck anymore. Landstill, Vial Goblins, Solidarity, and Burn are arguably the most common decks in the format. Vial Goblins is the only matchup out of those that is positive. I feel as if this deck has been dwindling in popularity for awhile and needs to take a step down. I asked Di about this at BAII and he disagreed with me (obviously :;): ). What does everyone think? Is this deck still top Tier?

midnightAce
07-28-2005, 11:02 PM
I believe, that while ATS remains a great control deck (one of the few control decks that has a constant card advantage engine), it is simply a difficult deck to pilot. I can say to a certain degrees that newer players trying out this deck will lose a lot of their games on play mistakes, and most probably, play mistakes that they never realize they made. I believe if can still be a heavy contender, provided that a lot of expereienced players are piloting it.

R4tX0r
07-29-2005, 12:36 AM
I see your point Godzilla =)

Bargoth
07-29-2005, 01:21 AM
What does everyone think? Is this deck still top Tier?
I think that in the hands of the right player this deck is still an upper tier deck.

I would agree that it does not have a postive matchup vs. Burn and Solidarity. But looking at Big Arse II results, those two decks were not esspecially popular. I think that ATS's matchup vs Landstill is not really that bad it has the tools to grab Survival and get it back if its destroyed. If one can keep a SotF in play long enough to take advantage of it (a turn or two). Its not too bad, but it's not really a good matchup either. It is probably one that demands more play skill than most in order to come out on top.

Other popular decks, going by the most resent large tournement results, appear to include Gro, RGSA, and Vial Goblins. I honestly have no idea how this deck fairs against Gro, I would think it really comes down to whether one can get Survival down fighting trough Meddling Mage, and Daze. I am pretty comfortable saying that Survival has a good matchup against the others, RGSA and Goblins.

I guess it comes down to how well the player knows the deck and how well they can pilot it, as MidnightAce said.

troopatroop
07-29-2005, 03:53 PM
...But is this deck still played enough and widely enough to be considered popular? It's certainly not on the level of goblins, landstill, and solidarity. Even RGSA had more players at BAII than ATS did. This deck is kinda like U/G Madness. None of its matchups are far above 50/50 and I think that this calls for its demotion from the LMF. Just my oppinion, yet I think it's pretty valid.

Bargoth
07-30-2005, 12:49 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying although I think it is an upper tier deck, its not being played very much. You are probably right, it is not really a deck that I would put in a testing gauntlet for a major event as it has not been showing up in very large numbers. Probably because it is such a hard deck to play correctly that, most players would choose something less taxing to play that is equally if not more competitive. If popularity and number of appearences at major events is a defining factor of LMF DTBs (which it should be, if it is not) then ATS probably does not belong in this section of the forum.

midnightAce
07-30-2005, 05:00 PM
Yea, Bargoth brings up another good point I forgot to mention. On top of the difficulty, play ATS in huge sanctioned events means you'll need your sleep the previous night, and probably lots of it. Playing in the local tourney 4 rounder is all fine and dandy, but playing 8 rounds, and probably going into Game 3 for every round is simply exhausting.

Jesus
07-30-2005, 08:31 PM
Ok, I have sat by and read most of the retarded stuff posted about this deck it honestly has no good match up's i'll have to agree with that. The deck is no longer tier one material in my opioion; I beleave Rg survivel Advantage is a better deck, it honestly has one bad match up wich would be storm. Seriously if your that hard on about the deck go ahead and play it i doubt there's any convincing you of otherwise.

BTW: Diablos the decks gone i gotta agree it's time to put it to rest, the tier deck's i think showed there face at big arse personally, Also i don't beleave sleep is required to be a good player common sense and a stable baring on the "concept" of the deck.

I find it ironic that you call the ideas in this thread "retarded" when you are unable to construct a simple sentence or even correctly spell "believe." You can disagree with ideas as much as you like, but be respectful of others. You should like this one: Those of you without sin, toss the first stone.

So in review:
Be polite
Improve writing skills

- Peter_Rotten

Carlos El Salvador
07-31-2005, 02:32 PM
A couple things:
1) The matchup percentages, for this deck, and this deck only, is SOLELY dependant on how good you are with it. The deck has the tools to go far in it's favor if you know how to play the deck.

2) This deck is one of the most complicated decks to play, period. This is up there with original long lists and whatnot in trying to figure out what you need to win, but this deck has the distinct disadvantage of having to play always with what is in mind with your oppoenet's deck.

3) It's widly played. One of the few decks on here that I have heard of in every 1.5 metagame.

Killer Joe
08-10-2005, 08:54 PM
I have had this deck put together since last Novemeber but I have yet to take to a Legacy tournament due to the fact that there are NO local ones in my area AND I'm more of a 'casual player' these days than tournament player.

I am sad to see it may not be tier I anymore but I'll still play it against my buddies who HATE IT! :D

imran
08-12-2005, 09:32 AM
Ats belongs definitely in the LMF. Its one of the best decks ever created in Legacy, the only problem, why it does not top is the fact, that the deck gets better with the playing skill. That does not mean, we are bad players. Its just the fact, that this deck is as skill intensive as old school Keeper in vintage. One of the best decks, but just too hard to play.

Regarding the deck.

As far as I know the latest version of the deck is as listed. Its the same version Diablos listed on 19.04.2005:

I have splitted it up, to “understand, which part of the deck is responsible for which type of matchup. Also I am still trying to “shake up" the deck a little bit.

Mana (27)
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Wood Elves
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

Engine and Support (8)
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Squee

Support (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak

Combo (5)
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Seedborn Muse

Graveyard (4)
1 Anger
1 Genesis
2 Eternal Witness

Aggro (3)
1 Masticore (aggro and control)
1 Gilded Drake (aggro)
1 Spore Frog (aggro)

Toolbox (5)
1 Mystic Snake
2 Quirion Ranger (Wasteland heavy metagame)
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Uktabi Orangutan/Viridian Shaman

Currently I am using the a slightly different version:

-1 Masticore
-1 Quirion Ranger

+1 Wirewood Symbiote
+1 Deranged Hermit

These two changings give me a huge package of additional Synergy

Wirewood Symbiote+
Any Elf
- Block, put damage on the Stack and return to your hand
Wood Elves
- Put every turn a land into play
Rofellos
- Save Rofellos or create massive amout of mana
Quirion Ranger
- Use the ability twice by bounce and replay
Deranged Hermit
- Create a bunch of Tokens every turn
Tradewind Rider
- Untap to use the ability twice

Deranged Hermit+
Tradewind Rider
Create tokens to tap

These two cards also add sick combos like

1. You have Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote and Tradewind Rider in play. Tap all to return a permanent. Return a forest to your hand, untap the Rider. Return the Ranger to your hand and untap the Symbiote. Replay forest, tap and replay the Ranger. Tap all to return a permanent.

Its a type of mini Seedborn Muse!

Or try this

2. You have Rofellos, Land and a Wirewood Symbiote in play and Anger in the Graveyard. Tap Rofellos and a forest to play the Hermit. Return the Hermit and untap Rofellos. Replay the Hermit and attack for 17 Damage.

Rather than wasting time with controlling the board and bouncing permanents, till he has nothing on the board, why not attack to kill the opponent, before he can recover? I know some people say, that the Hermit is outdated, but he is still one the best 5 Mana Fatties ever printed for green.

Slay
08-12-2005, 10:22 AM
When would you ever use Hermit that oyu aren't already in a winning position? He's a 9/9 for 5. If you wanted to make the most of a 9/9 for 5, you'd have to be attacking with your creatures beforehand. Attacking is something ATS seriously does not want to do, in most cases. Plus, it's fragile. If your opponent can't deal with a 1 toughness creature, he's either playng a terrible deck, in which case you've already should have won, or you have control, in which case just seedborn lock the other guy. A hermit's CIP ability would only be more useful, than, say, a Merfolk of the Pearl Trident if you had no creatures besides the Tradewind out. If you have 5 lands out and no mana creatures, you probably shouldn't have kept the hand. A good comparison of its use would be putting Memnarch in Landstill. Totally useless.
-Slay

imran
08-12-2005, 11:01 AM
Its not the fact, that the ability of Deranged Hermit is good or bad. The main thing is, that the best decks put pressure on the opponent from more than one side.
Controlling the board is maybe not enough for ATS. It happened more than once to me, that an opponent put a Deed into play with no mana left, just to kill everything next round, including my Survival and my Rofellos. I know, you can Genesis, Witness everything, but why spend my time with investing mana into recurring effects, if I only have to Survival out a Hermit to attack for the lethal damage?
You dont have to explain me, that attacking is not the route to go for ATS, but it should be an option.
Just look at Vintage, most decks are now hybrid decks, with a combo finish.
Tendrils in Gifts
Tinker Colossus in "every" blue control deck
Combo finishes are essential for decks to seal the deal as fast as possible, whenever there is a chance.

Does that also mean, you are okay with the Symbiote? :D

Obfuscate Freely
08-12-2005, 05:50 PM
The argument would be that you would still win the game against that Deed, even if it took a long-ass time because you have to go to the trouble of building your board up again.

the other part of that same argument is that you may actually lose games because you draw a Hermit instead of a Masticore, or because you don't have any tutorable weenie kill.

When you're talking about optimizing a decklist, the bottom line is winning games, not making games easier to win, or adding cool win-more combos. For Hermit to be worth inclusion over Masticore, you need to determine that the switch actually leads to more game wins. Does it?

imran
08-12-2005, 06:04 PM
Time is a resource in Tournament matches. You have only a limited time to "handle" your opponent. The problem is, that playing with ATS is extremly slow, cause you search out every solution in your deck. It takes time, and a lot of experience.

I am not trying to add cool-win more combos. I am trying to make the win faster. It takes a lot of time to win with this deck, other decks have faster win conditions. That means a game with a huge time investment should also be a win, if not you are nearly going to loose the match, right? You dont need to win games, win matches to win the tournament.

midnightAce
08-12-2005, 06:19 PM
Well, in all fairness, once you achieve a lock, most people scoops right away. Only retarded people lays a land a turn and tries to play more.

Remember what Di said about ATS, is that the deck can function without SotF. So for every card you try to remove/add/replace, you should be considering, [the card] by itself, does it handle well? Is it castable at a reasonable cost? I understand that both Hermit and 'Core are relatively easy to cast, but Hermit will essentially cost you 10 mana (assuming no Anger for the hasty swing) to fully abuse it, where as the 'Core comes down one turn faster and can continuesly improve ATS's board position via machine gunning the opposing critters. Not to mention surviving under Disk/Deeds.

From a stand-alone perspective, I would conclude that the 'Core is superior to that of the Hermit.

EDIT: To echo what Obfuscate Freely said, what match up does the Hermit drastically improve to warrent the 'Core's replacement? The current meta trend is more towards creature based decks, then 'Core should be an auto-inclusion since it removes opposing critters. (No, I do not consider blocking with tokens to be any form of "removal".)

troopatroop
08-12-2005, 11:08 PM
This is absolutely retarded.

There is a reason that hermit is in RGSA. That reason is because that deck has a different game plan. They want to attack for lethal damage.

There is a reason that hermit isn't in ATS. That reason is because this deck has a different gameplan. We want to stabilize the board.

After you've stabilized you've ALREADY WON.

Hermit doesn't belong in this deck, End of story.

Ewokslayer
08-13-2005, 02:46 AM
It happened more than once to me, that an opponent put a Deed into play with no mana left, just to kill everything next round, including my Survival and my Rofellos. I know, you can Genesis, Witness everything, but why spend my time with investing mana into recurring effects, if I only have to Survival out a Hermit to attack for the lethal damage?

How exactly would a Deranged Hermit really change anything in this particular situation?

I mean, has your opponent every read Pernicious Deed? Using Survival and 6 mana to get out a Hermit seems like an expensive way to get out a 1/1 with echo no less.

Wouldn't it just be easier to get out the zealot/lyrist and blow up the Deed on the tapped out player?

MattH
08-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Why do people think you need beaters? This deck is NOT lacking a clock. Even if you don't run Masticore for some reason, just amass a bunch of random utility guys (Eternal Witnesses and Uktabis and so on), clear the board with Tradewinds, and win. 2/xs make a swift enough clock.

Bargoth
08-13-2005, 08:11 PM
Wouldn't it just be easier to get out the zealot/lyrist and blow up the Deed on the tapped out player?

Amen. I was wondering the same thing in reguards to grabbing Lyrist / Kami / Zealot...

I wouldn't argue the fact that 9 points of hasted damage is a good way to end the game, but Masticore serves as a game ender and the best form of weenie control this deck has access to. I wouldn't use Hermit because as everyone has been saying it doesn't do anything to help the game plan of gaining control of the board in the early game and is almost always a win more card.

If you made it to 5 mana and have an active Survival to fetch Hermit, there is going to ALWAYS be a better choice. As Diablos has shown from day one this deck is tight on spots the last thing you need to be doing is cluttering it with cards that don't do anything.

imran
08-14-2005, 07:28 AM
The problem with the whole thing is, it was his the third deed. I fetched recurred/recurred the kami 2 times, having an easy time killing the deed. But the third was too much. My answer was in my graveyard. Spot removal killed my Rofellos, and I was stuck with five mana looking at his 7 life and a deed on the board without mana. so what is easier?

Killing the deed with a genesised kami, or just attack with a hasted hermit.

I know it was a unique situation, but I still think its time to add a "combo finish", that ends the game as soon as possible. Maybe Hermit/Kami is the wrong solution!

Di
08-14-2005, 07:56 AM
Ok, so he was at 7 life, and you have 5 land. Your turn comes around, Genesis back Rofellos and swing, assuming it's hasted. Great, now he's at 5. If Masticore in in graveyard, you can get him, then cast and swing too. You could possibly get back Genesis and swing with itself. Or, you can Genesis back Eternal Witness, get back Survival, and fuck him over within the next turn. There's a lot of options, but you aren't really ever in any pressure to deal that kind of damage with a Hermit.

If you're in a situation that you feel you need Hermit, then you're most likely playing the deck wrong. And no, saying you're staring at a board fill of goblin piledrivers and the like is not an acceptable answer.

scrumdogg
08-14-2005, 09:39 AM
The problem with the whole thing is, it was his the third deed. I fetched recurred/recurred the kami 2 times, having an easy time killing the deed. But the third was too much. My answer was in my graveyard. Spot removal killed my Rofellos, and I was stuck with five mana looking at his 7 life and a deed on the board without mana. so what is easier?

Killing the deed with a genesised kami, or just attack with a hasted hermit.

I know it was a unique situation, but I still think its time to add a "combo finish", that ends the game as soon as possible. Maybe Hermit/Kami is the wrong solution!
As someone pointed out earlier, Hermit will not win the game this turn, as he can blow the Deed for zero to kill all the squirrels. No offense, but if your opponent is dumb enough NOT to kill the squirrels, you would have won anyway... Hermit is not better than Masticore, for all the reasons stated earlier - most especially the removal element. I love Hermit & tend to play both in Survival decks, but I am an aggro-control player. This is NOT an aggro-control deck. Playing it as such, or attempting to turn it into such a deck is a mistake - both for you and for the deck. You absolutely could make an aggro-control G/U/r/w aggro control Survival deck. But start from the ground up with that premise. It might even include Tradewinds &a Seedborn, it will have utility, but the cards & their proportions will be aimed at beating down more than locking the board. Again, it has been stated in the past but needs to be repeated - emphasized for truth, once you get the lock with this deck - you can kill them with ANYTHING in your deck.

eggrole
08-25-2005, 01:09 PM
Here is my take on ATS after a few weeks of testing versus Vial Gobos and Landstill.

MainDeck (60)
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Spore Frog
1 Anger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Spike Feeder
1 Meddling Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Masticore
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Tradewind Rider

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will

Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Choke
2 Naturalize
2 Pyroblast
1 Back to Basics
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Absolute Law
1 Worship
2 Tormod's Crypt

I know it looks insane, but I have found that if I up the E.Tutor count to 4, and mulligan aggressivly I can get a survival out on turn 2 pretty consistently. 1 tradewind might seem bad, but in all reality you dont ever need more than 1 in anything except maybe landstill (more good threats). The cutting of these allows me to fit in more tutors, and generally be more versatile. The lyrist/monkey get replaced by the zealot (again to make room for versatility). In this build im not loving the wood elves and might cut them. I would like 1 forest, 4th ranger, 2nd tradewind to fit in somewhere, but aside from the wood elf i can't see anything that can go.I dropped the snake as it helped me VERY rarely since I am generally short on mana. Either from wastes or aggressive rangers. The drake is better than i thought and i use it as an answer all the time, even without tradewind online. The mana base is pretty solid. I would still be vulnerable to waste if i drop 1-3 taigas, so i figure i might as well up consistency. Playing all 4 ofs the duals is my main reasoning for not loving the wood elf as well i think.The only other maddness I have done with the deck is SEVERLY reduce the blue card count to 12 including the forces themselves. I dont love this, but I have mainly only needed one force in any given game (more would be nice against landstill) and I generally survival up a mage/drake to pitch. I was thinking of going to 3 forces, but i like to have one when i need it, and like i said tutoring a creature to pitch has been working well.

Now, assuming you get the survival down against gobos, you should be able to just win. The biggest problem I have is multiple wastelands... this is where the 3 Rangers come in. Not only do the help against wasteland, I often use them as a cheap accel when i only have 1-2 lands (and maybe not even a bird).I have also found that it is better to get a Feeder online when you are super low on life than to go strait for the frog lock. Too often has my frog been gempalmed EOT, then my face wrecked. The sharpshooter/masticore usually come out before tradewind and controls the board quite handily. I am just starting to test Kira now, but it seems pretty solid so far. My concern is the meddling mage and never knowing what to name...

Against landstill i have a much tougher time since I only have the 1 tradewind. I cant just pop a few out to draw counters, which makes my game pretty weak. I have been playing as beatdown as I can and mulling into hands with some "aggro" from zealot, feeder, mage, roffellos, etc. I am not sure exactly how I should be playing this, so if anyone has any thoughts I am all ears.

Again, my changes were made to get a survival on the board ASAP. I am running on the assumption of having it available when i need it. This strategy gives up redundancy for flexability. The sideboard is quite a work in progress and suggestions here would also be appreciated. Like I said im still trying to figure out how to play against landstill.

Rivs
08-25-2005, 01:14 PM
Hmm i'm sure there are more adept ATS players in the forum than me, that can give you feedback on the deck.

My first and main gripe, even though I do not play ATS often is that you only play 12 Blue cards to support FoW. I believe most people are not comfortable with less than 14.

Another small gripe, ATS is not supposed to lean so heavly on survival to hit the table, its other main threat is Tradewind, or so i heard, so that it can live long enough against aggro to brainstorm into some business.

Cheers.

dsg123456789
08-25-2005, 10:49 PM
I recomend you check out the first list on page one of the thread, Rivs, except you should go -1 Wall of Roots, +1 Wood Elves. That is the normally accepted ATS starting point, with 16 blue cards, and reasonable topdeck reliability (not always autolosing).

troopatroop
08-26-2005, 11:16 AM
People need to stop rebuilding this deck. It gets really goddamn annoying correcting like 80 different ATS decks into the right direction. The optimal decklist has been made and tested into the ground. If you don't want to conform to that decklist, that's fine, but you must realize that you are playing it wrong and you would do better to realize that. 1 Tradewind is really, really stupid. 12 cards to FOW is (again) really stupid. Tradewind wins just as many games as survival does on its own. It's what actually gives you a chance against Solidarity. Cutting Tradewinds also lowers your FOW count to under 16 which is unplayable and makes FOW awful. Tradewind Rider is Rediculous in the current format and is bad in... um... no matchups? Why cut him. Meddling mage is a sb card and its mana cost is retarded for this deck. THE DECK IS GREEN BASED!!! meddling mage is strictly a SB card. Kira? Why Kira? What matchups would that improve that a Tradewind wouldn't already win? You said that cutting dual lands would make you more vulnerable to wasteland? It looks to me like all of your lands are waste-able... looks pretty vulnerable to me. what do you do to Crucible/Waste when your Ranger gets Plowed? Your Landstill matchup is unwinnable now since you have nothing that they care about besides Survival. You also play 1 witness, so when Survival is countered, it's staying in the yard. Don't you see all the synergies with tradewind? Witness? Guilded Drake? Wood elves? You're tuning the deck SO toolbox that you have no deck outside of Survival. There is a fine line between Options and Vulnerability, and you've crossed way over it.

-1 Ranger
-1 WOR
-1 Mage
-1 Kira
+1 Witness
+3 Tradewind rider
(at the very least, do something like this)

People are taking this deck in the wrong direction. It's already good, and changing it just for the sake of changing it to be "your deck" will lose you alot of games. The build is optimal... stop desecrating it.

...I need to lay down...

Obfuscate Freely
08-26-2005, 09:29 PM
The idea that any deck is so "optimal" that people shouldn't try to develop it further is patently asinine. If Diablos' latest ATS list is indeed the Grand Ultimate Decklist for All Time, than someone needs to kick its ass out of the LMF. The deck hasn't been doing very well.

BTW, Troop, it's spelled 'ridiculous.' You know, from the root word is 'ridicule.'



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1125102580

dsg123456789
08-26-2005, 10:00 PM
Barring development of a deck, stupid changes should not be made. Use the list as a starting point: For instance, Tradewinder Rider is important. Don't cut it (a "duh," I previouly thought). Basic lands are good in a format where manabases are defined by wasteland's overwhelming presence. Don't make an all nonbasic manabase, another obvious mistake. Lastly, don't post and repost the same suggestion for the same deck, especially when its been discussed and rejected several times already (thinking Meddling Mage).

ChrisTJs27
08-30-2005, 12:32 PM
Regardless of what you all think as to how optimal this deck is, I hate to tell you - there are some MAJOR holes.

I played ATS at the Legacy Champs to a 25th place finish. The metagame just wasn't right for it ladies and gents.

I metagamed to beat random aggro and Goblins as that's what I expected and yes, because there is run in the deck to innovate! Silly single-minded people.

Unfortuantely, High Tide and Landstill are nightmare match-ups, both of which having a hand in seeing that I don't win 40 Dual Lands.

The deck needs a better game plan against those decks, or us loyal ATS players will have to abandon our favorite deck. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what that plan is... :( But it does mean we'll have to innovate.

That being said, if this deck was as optimal as it can get, we're f*cked against Landstill and High Tide... so I really hope its not.

troopatroop
08-30-2005, 01:24 PM
You're not boned against Landstill. It's 50/50. Any good ATS player will attest to that. It may only be slightly in Landstills favor due to ease of play.

Solidarity is winnable. If you get a third turn tradewind you can win. If you get a fourth turn tradewind with haste you can win. If you have a bunch of counters in your hand you can win. If you tutor for InTheEyeOfChaos you can win. You have many outs, and I myself haven't lost to Solidarity in tournament with ATS before. I'm aware that the matchup preboard blows, but there's nothing we can do about that.

Braves54321
08-30-2005, 01:37 PM
You're not boned against Landstill. It's 50/50. Any good ATS player will attest to that. It may only be slightly in Landstills favor due to ease of play.

Landstill isn't that easy to play, so stfu.


I myself haven't lost to Solidarity in tournament with ATS before.
What have you played the matchup like?...twice?


I'm no expert w/ATS, but it needs to gtfo the LMF.

Efreet
08-30-2005, 01:53 PM
i completely agree with troopatroop..

landstill is a matchup where the winner is always the best player and not the best deck.. anyone failing a gaming choice will lose the match, that's why is a 50-50

against solidarity you have the game if you can put into play in the eye of chaos or arcane lab, that's very simple to happen.. since i play ATS, i played about 20 match against solidarity and i win 16..

The matter is the player's skill in my opinion, so improve yourself without playing ATS with one lonely rider... [glare]

ChrisTJs27
09-01-2005, 01:38 PM
I disagree.

In my playtesting against Landstill, they have so many weapons against you its sickening. All of which you can only combat with a resolved Survival and even then, a well-timed Wrath of God means virtually starting over. ATS' guys getting StP'd is really annoying and if they're smart enough to attack my mana guys and my lands, its really hard for ATS to recover. Not to mention the fact that they win the counter-war.

Landstill just has so many more things that trump what ATS does, you'll never convince me that the match-up is 50/50. And this is based on my own playtesting.

Sure, ATS did win some - when Landstill didn't draw a Force of Will, multiple Wastelands, and didn't find a Wrath of God until later (when I could FoW or Mystic Snake it). Or when I comboed turn 4, which doesn't happen as often as I'd like.

Its still, based on my information, 60/40 in favor (game 1) for Landstill. ATS is a creature deck and Landstill is designed to destroy creature decks. With out Survival, ATS is a bad creature deck.

As far as the match up against High Tide goes, again, according to my playtesting AND experience playing in the Legacy Championships the match up is in favor of High Tide. The only game I won was when he drew absolutely no Force's and no High Tides. In playtesting, ATS just couldn't apply enough pressure quickly enough. Often times even when I did start bouncing lands, they'd go off in response or even try with three lands! ATS does win if they fizzle, but that doesn't happen very often (though naturally, it does). Plus, while ATS does have more countermagic, all they have to do is play the second High Tide in their hand that I now don't have a counter for. ATS only has four turns which just isn't enough to win, especially considering they don't care what ATS is up to.

Game two is a little better however, especially if they're an inexperienced High Tide player. The Gaea's Blessings only proved to be so-so as I just got Stroked out in response to the trigger. :( But the Glowrider's were great! And they proved to be good against other match ups as well. All in all, game one I believe 60/40 in favor of Tide, 50/50 game two.

Even Goblins is rough - and I metagamed to beat them!

Its just not the metagame for our favorite deck if you take the time to analyze it. Survival did not fair well at the Champs. I finished 25th and I have no idea if there was a higher finishing Survival deck. There were more, but very few. I mostly saw Goblins, Landstill, and High Tide. :(

All of which seems odd - why is the most powerful enchantment legal in Legacy not winning?!

troopatroop
09-01-2005, 01:49 PM
Because the deck needs to be built perfectly to win. Games 2 and 3 you NEED to have In The Eye of Chaos to win. I'm guessing you didnt have one did ya? Matter of factly, noone prolly did, as they're rediculously hard to find. Landstill is completely skill based, and winnable in every way. Solidarity is based on how fast you can get tradewind active with a quirion ranger for double bouncing, forcing them to go off then. You also shouldn't gun for the High Tides. I've found that countering the big draw spell (Meditate) is a better option for this deck. That might have changes though, now that they run Twincast. If they play Twincast, you go for the High Tides with counters, but if they don't I'd go for the meditate. It's usually a judgement call in each individual game.

Efreet
09-01-2005, 02:21 PM
i think you'd better improve your skill playing the deck.. if you can't do 50-50 against landstill is because i think you don't play correctly the deck, or you don't play the match with the necessary approach..

play more and more, you will see how this isn't a too hard matchup..

Read this (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) and take it to heart. Use your shift key. And sentences only require a single period at the end. Thanks for your cooperation. - Zilla

Slay
09-01-2005, 02:36 PM
It is a hard matchup. It's probably the most skill-intensive matchup that ATS has to deal with. It tests not only how well you cna play the deck, but also how well you can sideboard. You have to know exactly how many cards you can afford to bring out and which cards to bring in. You also have to have a perfect sideboard. SO not only test the matchup more, but keep switching cards in your sideboard till you win. Here's a good starting point: 2x ITEOC, 1x B2B 1x Choke. Probably also should throw in a Seal of Cleansing in case your opponent goes Humility on you. Humility sucks.
-Slay

troopatroop
09-01-2005, 03:19 PM
I bring in 3 B2B 1 Baloth 1 Seal for landstill, and it's done me very well. The thing is, the matchup often requires more thinking than you would... think. Take this hand for Example. I was playing at a tournament a while ago with ATS against Landstill. This was the hand.

forest
trop
heath
survival
genesis
witness
FOW

now that's a solid hand right? Yep. It's a keeper. I was on the draw, and he said tundra go. I draw a BOP. Great! Now I can go first turn BOP, Second turn Survival, right??

Wrong

I say, no land, discard genesis, go. It won me the game in the long run. He STP'd my Birds and Disenchanted my Survival. Counterspell met the Survival that I Witnessed back. No matter what, don't overextend and think you've got the game. Had I not stopped myself from playing the first turn bird, I would've lost that game, and the match. There is a best play in every situation, and until you strive to make that play every and any time you play this deck you will have trouble. Landstill vs ATS is the most skill intensive non mirror match in the format. Think outside the box.

UniversalSnip
09-04-2005, 07:17 PM
This kind of thread is one of the reasons I so rarely read this forum. Obviously, if you deviate from the godlike 75 you're an infidel who doesn't deserve posting rights. I'll come right out and say I haven't had a quarter of the experience with this deck you guys have, but between being a good deckbuilder and a reasonably intelligent person, it's obvious you guys are unhealthily in love with the past.

Listen -

There is a fundamental problem with this deck in the current metagame. It is not winning.

Think of it this way - if people aren't making it with this deck, there are two possible reasons.

A) The deck is bad
B) The players are bad

Now if the players are bad, that means that the people running ATS are bad. Know why? Good players aren't choosing it.

Wonder what the reason for that could be. Maybe they just don't appreciate it's raw power. Infidels who refuse to adhere to the Sacred 75 rarely do.

This raises two more possibilities:

1) The deck can be fixed to work in this metagame
2) The deck can't be fixed to work in this metagame

I'm going to assume 1 here. There'd be no point to the post if I didn't.

As I see it, the issue with ATS is it's extremely low threat density. This is why the deck has such an extremely hard time winning without survival (and don't go off on a rant; you know it's true. ATS is horribly, horribly gimped without it). Adding enlightened tutor is just a sad workaround. Needle still ruins your day. Disenchant still ruins your day. Wasteland now ruins your day even more. You need threats that AREN'T named survival. There are a few (masticore being one of the most important), but by and large you're just relying on one card.

This is not the way to build a deck.

You desperately need to expand your threat base. People are just not going to get destroyed by single card strategies like they were when legacy was a pretend format.

Here are some suggestions off the top of my head:

- More masticore?
- Wastelands/crucible?
- Jitte?
- Impulse?
- Back to Basics?
- Minimize cards that suck without survival (eg spore frog)

Some or all of these suggestions suck, but some serious changes need to be made, and it's a start.

midnightAce
09-04-2005, 10:11 PM
There is a fundamental problem with this deck in the current metagame. It is not winning.

Think of it this way - if people aren't making it with this deck, there are two possible reasons.

A) The deck is bad
B) The players are bad


Actually, that's not entirely true. The deck did make an apparence in one of the GP Trials. The third catagory of reason, which was touched on a few pages ago, is that ATS is simply a hard deck to pilot. Even good players doesn't like to pilot complicated decks. Of course you can argue that the deck should be "dumbed down" or something to make it easier to play, but I don't believe that's the way to go.

If you honestly do a little survey on the players, asking them why is it that they refuse to play with ATS, I think a good chunk of majority will answer something like this:

"The choices for every turn is just too confusing and too mentally exhausting. I have GG open, what do I go for? Witness? Frog? It's an aggro deck I'm playing against, but he can top deck a Sharpshooter and get rid of the Frog lock, so I should go for Wall and block, but then may be I should get a Masticore and shoot down the Warchief, but I wouldn't have mana open to regenerate Core if he plays another Goblin and cycle Gempalm for 4 damage targeting the core... etc etc..."

Seriously, you can't fault the deck or the player in this case, it's simply... hard... lol...

Ewokslayer
09-05-2005, 02:34 AM
There is a fundamental problem with this deck in the current metagame. It is not winning.

Think of it this way - if people aren't making it with this deck, there are two possible reasons.

A) The deck is bad
B) The players are bad


Actually, that's not entirely true. The deck did make an apparence in one of the GP Trials. The third catagory of reason, which was touched on a few pages ago, is that ATS is simply a hard deck to pilot. Even good players doesn't like to pilot complicated decks. Of course you can argue that the deck should be "dumbed down" or something to make it easier to play, but I don't believe that's the way to go.

If you honestly do a little survey on the players, asking them why is it that they refuse to play with ATS, I think a good chunk of majority will answer something like this:

"The choices for every turn is just too confusing and too mentally exhausting. I have GG open, what do I go for? Witness? Frog? It's an aggro deck I'm playing against, but he can top deck a Sharpshooter and get rid of the Frog lock, so I should go for Wall and block, but then may be I should get a Masticore and shoot down the Warchief, but I wouldn't have mana open to regenerate Core if he plays another Goblin and cycle Gempalm for 4 damage targeting the core... etc etc..."

Seriously, you can't fault the deck or the player in this case, it's simply... hard... lol...
Using the fact that ATS made the Top 8 in the GPT as proof that the deck is good is a bit misleading as the build of the deck was vastly different from the build on this forum. It was not running white at all, which was one of the points UniversalSnip made. Incidentally, he is right on pretty much all of his points. Something has to change in the deck for it to be competitive. Just saying that the deck is losing because people aren't playing it right isn't going to cut it.

Destavi
09-06-2005, 12:56 AM
I think a big reason this deck isn't doing well is because of Needle and because former ATS players fear it. I know I would'nt play ATS right now and it's not because it's a difficult deck to play. It's because if you can't Force the first turn Needle YOU LOSE. Sure you can draw Shaman/Zealot, or Tradewind it hopefully before they get another one on Tradewind. The problem is that card devastates this deck. Unless someone can show us how ATS has adapted I would argue this deck is not a deck to beat (DTB).

dsg123456789
09-08-2005, 09:04 PM
As we all can agree (I think) ATS cannot topdeck at all. I have, however, come up with a somewhat-solution to this, in that it gives you 2-4 more tutors to run (and more is better, eh?):

Muddle the Mix
Instant UU
Counter target instant or sorcery spell.
Transmute 1UU

Basically, for UU you get a semi-hard counter, and for 1UU you get an uncounterable sorcery-speed tutor for survival (or Viridian Zealot post-board). 2 of these would give you nine virtual Survivals, and so you should be able to get one to stick a bit better. ATS will only be weakened if you try to improve its ability to run without Survival--it needs to be able to get a functioning Survival through more disruption more often.

Di
09-08-2005, 09:27 PM
Except for the fact that you have to use your entire third turn a opposed to the first, and the fact that you need UU to use this, which there are a grand total of 4 Birds, 4 Trop, 6 fetch, and the probability that there will be a Wasteland and/or StP for that Bird, this card is all right for getting Survival...or Wall of Roots, Rofellos, etc.

I think I'd rather stick with the slight card disadvantage though, with its fancy silver-bullet package.


As we all can agree (I think) ATS cannot topdeck at all. I have, however, come up with a somewhat-solution to this, in that it gives you 2-4 more tutors to run (and more is better, eh?):

I have come up with a better solution to bad topdecks. But wait, it isn't new, it's Sylvan Library. If the deck could fit it, it would, but it needs all the crap slots there are.

dsg123456789
09-08-2005, 09:36 PM
Diablos, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting to drop E. Tutor, which is a fine card where it is, and it does its job very well. I think that Muddle the Mix should be run instead of Mana Leak, because you don't often hardcast either, but if you need to topdeck out of a lack-of-survival situation, having another tutor that doubles as a counter can be useful.

In addtion, I think that 20 lands should be run, at the expense of some of the broader toolbox creatures (spore frog, goblin sharpshooter, or a 2nd quirion ranger). I find that having more basics and more lands helps against strong mana-denial strategies like Goblins and Landstill can bring.

Di
09-08-2005, 10:29 PM
Ah, yes, my misunderstanding. However, Mana Leak plays an important role being a solid 1U counterspell, as it nukes all the 2nd and third turn plays that influence the rest of the game, such as Troll, Jitte, Armageddon, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, etc. Muddle up the Mix is too narrow when a deck like Vial Goblins is tier 1.

Zilla
09-09-2005, 05:26 PM
Moved to Open. The archetype is currently not performing well enough at tournaments or even being played enough to be considered a Deck to Beat. Should this ever change, it will be moved back to the LMF. - Zilla

Di
09-30-2005, 03:09 AM
Interesting. Seeing the list of Ugr Survival that Spatula released(it's in New and dev forum) convinced me to release my current works on ATS. It's like an R/G/ATS hybrid, combining the stronger aspects of the decks into one, without having an absolutely horrendous manabase and strong draw ratio. Anyway, here's the build I'm running:

Although I oppose goofy names like the ones of the damned Virginians, for some reason, I've been calling this deck ATS/Katrina(after the Hurricane obv) for its ability to flood the opponent with pressure from multiple angles of the board.

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm

2 Tradewind Rider
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Mystic Snake
1 Gilded Drake
2 Eternal Witness
2 Flametongue Kavu

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Ravenous Baloth
1 Spore Frog

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
7 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Naturalize
2 Ravenous Baloth
3 Back to Basics
1 Caller of the Claw
3 Pyrostatic Pillar/Ichneumon Druid
4 Pithing Needle

I personally like this list for quite a few reasons:

1. It runs 19 lands, which is one more than the normal ATS list runs(this deck runs 20, 8 basics). On my list of 19 lands, 7 are still basics. Although you have slight stability, you can't throw away the raw speed of Birds and Wall of Roots. Relying on Rofellos alone can't do the trick against any of the decks.

2. Might have noticed I cut white. I figured if the deck needs to maintain a stable manabase, it can't hold the forth color, so I replaced Enlightened Tutor for Wall of Blossoms. I made this move because of a few reasons. First, they obviously cantrip, which at least slightly compensates for the loss off a tutor. Second, they are very friendly with Tradewind. Finally, it's another early blocker for Goblins quick attack. I upped the Wall of Roots count to deal with this as well. I feel Basking rootwalla is ok for this spot as well, but I hate how its ass is only a 1, so Mogg Fanatic sends it off the earth. You also lose the silver bullet strategy, so you have to adapt the sideboard a bit.

3. It has the option of taking an ATS lock route, or a R/G quick beats with Baloth and FTK and mess you up. I greatly enjoy the flexibility it gives, as the options together also have decent synergy(Tradewind + FTK anyone?). I would still like to somehow squeeze a Seedborn Muse back into the deck, because it basically seals the deal with Tradewind in play.

4. The ability to play aggro while still countering spells is really nice. A problem with ATS was that it could deny you of threats early, but didn't really lock you down for a short while afterwards. This build can put pressure on you with the attack phase and removal, send other permanents back with Tradewind, and counter your shit at the same time. It's personally suiting me nicely.

5. It feels good to topdeck into a Baloth and cast it turn 3 then just fuck up the opponent's plans. Lifegain game 1 is also hot, as ATS didn't maindeck it. The topdecks in this list are stronger than the traditional Tradewind decks. Although you could say Spore Frog and Gilded Drake are meh draws, which is true, the option to still there to stop attack phases and deal with their creatures. This list runs Gilded Drake, Tradewind, FTK, Sharpshooter, and a handful of walls to deal with creatures.

The sideboard I haven't really put too much work into yet, as it's wierd to sideboard without the silverbullet strategy. But I know that it's good enough to slam BtB down against Landstill then smash the hell out of them with creatures quickly. Baloths come in against anything really, they are good in most matchups. Naturalize shuts down lots of stuff of course, Caller is for WoG and the like, Pillar/Druid is for storm combo, although I personally like the Druid better. Costs one more but double the damage, and they can be tutored for. This is on top of you with 8 counters too.

So, thoughts, comments, suggestions. I'm really wanting ATS to get back into the tupper tier, it just had to make some adaptions.

troopatroop
09-30-2005, 03:33 PM
Di... That was almost my exact list before I sold the deck.

+2 Tradewind

-1 Baloth
-1 Mana leak

It still worked, and it adds alot to the manabase. Enlightened tutor could either be really really good, or just plain awful. Often times I would be stuck with an Enlightened tutor in my hand and a survival on this board with no use for it whatsoever. This eventually led to me adding Worship to the main deck as an optional thing to fetch with enlightened tutor, but worship was never a better fetch than survival, so I took 'em out. I toyed around with burning wish, jitte, even junk like aether vial, but the overall concept was weakened, so they all ended up sucking. I'd keep Wood Elves in the deck because they're awesome, and I fetch for them all the time, and although this deck has changed alot, I still think that Wood elves should stay. Cutting the deck down to 60 cards was a no brainer, and it just generally performed better that way. WallOfBlossoms gives you more outs to Lackey and goblins in general, and is a nice, yet cuttable inclusion. I can't do anything for this deck anymore, as I don't own it, but I may cut in from time to time. 2 years of play should give me some credibility... right?

Di
09-30-2005, 03:45 PM
2 years of play should give me some credibility... right?

Wrong.


Kidding, but that sounded funny to say. I find it awkward that you'd have such a similiar list, as this is drastically different than the other lists. But good that we are on the same page at least.

I personally miss Enlightened Tutor, but I must say the manabase is better running another land and more basics. The lack of Tutor though is outweighed by the deck's more powerful draws in Baloth and FTK, and Wall of Blossoms at least cantrips to help a bit.

I also have been looking for ways to find Wood Elves a slot, and my first choice was either Wall of Roots or a Baloth, but I didn't want to slow the manabase at all, because this build loves maximizing chances at a 4cc guy on turn 3 if possible without Survival, and removing a Wall would also weaken the Goblin matchup slightly. If I removed Baloth, then my draw without Survival is weakened, as is the option for quick beating. The current list is still at 61 cards, which is fine for me, but It's just so damn hard to pull slots from these kind of decks. I can't cut ANY blue cards because it's already weak at 15, but I haven't seen too many problems yet, as it doesn't hurt as much to remove a Tradewind.

I don't know, I'll figure something out with that. Most likely a WoR will be replaced in it's spot, but I'm still hesitant to do that when Goblins is so popular.

SpatulaOfTheAges
09-30-2005, 03:48 PM
The thing about Spore Frog is that the top aggro deck in the format doesn't care about Spore Frog. There are so many ways for Goblins to deal with Spore Frog that it's just silly, and meanwhile you're wasting 4 mana a turn, which retards your board development. Spore Frog = retarded.

This is ultimately the same reason I cut BoP; if you give Goblins the option of disrupting your mana base, they'll gladly take it, and if they're on the play, that kind of tempo loss is ridiculous. Sure, Rootwalla dies turn 1 too, but on the other hand, with Survival out and mana open, it punishes Goblins for attacking, and it's not a dead draw against control. The other thing is that against Solidarity, instant speed creatures allow you to increase your clock without having to give them an open oppourtunity to go off.

I also think you should heavily consider Eternal Witness as a 4x. That card is insane against everything. It increases your countermagic count against control, brings back Rootwallas/whatever against aggro, and brings back Survival against control.



Edited By SpatulaOfTheAges on 1128106294

Di
09-30-2005, 04:21 PM
The thing about Spore Frog is that the top aggro deck in the format doesn't care about Spore Frog. There are so many ways for Goblins to deal with Spore Frog that it's just silly, and meanwhile you're wasting 4 mana a turn, which retards your board development. Spore Frog = retarded.

You don't need to go for Frog every turn though. All Frog needs to do is stall for a turn or two. Then let FTK and friends take care of the mess. Plus, people need to stop exaggerating Goblin's power. You run 8 counters, Sharpshooter, FTK, Tradewind, and an array of blockers. I'm sure somewhere in there you can find an answer to Goblins.

Also, remember Goblins is not the only aggro deck. Spore Frog shuts down all other aggro decks too.


This is ultimately the same reason I cut BoP; if you give Goblins the option of disrupting your mana base, they'll gladly take it, and if they're on the play, that kind of tempo loss is ridiculous. Sure, Rootwalla dies turn 1 too, but on the other hand, with Survival out and mana open, it punishes Goblins for attacking, and it's not a dead draw against control. The other thing is that against Solidarity, instant speed creatures allow you to increase your clock without having to give them an open oppourtunity to go off.

Yet your list is slow as hell. If you get your Rofellos knocked off, you have nothing but 4-5 lands to work off of. Yes, Goblins can send a Mogg Fanatic or something at my turn 1 BoP, which is annoying, but the fact that you still possess the speed to do broken things during turn 3-4 makes it worth it. You argue that Goblins can kill BoP while it can still kill Rootwalla, but Rootwalla isn't going to give you a turn 3 FTK to hit a Piledriver, or a turn 3 Tradewind against Solidarity. Rootwalla also won't have much say when you tap out turn 2 to cast Survival and then get him by a Disenchant and hope to draw Witness, as opposed to having that extra mana to get Witness for the next turn. An important aspect of Survival's game is to quickly establish more mana than your lands allow, so you are able to cast expensive creatures like Tradewind or FTK faster. Although it isn't the tits against a turn 1 Lackey, I still run 5 1G Walls to hinder the next attackphase.


I also think you should heavily consider Eternal Witness as a 4x. That card is insane against everything. It increases your countermagic count against control, brings back Rootwallas/whatever against aggro, and brings back Survival against control.

4 Witnesses isn't bad by any means, and certainly kicks control's ass, but I still find it to be excessive. In RG Survival, you didn't have access to counters and Brainstorm. You had to rely on your topdecks, and if they got countered, Witness was there to back them up. However, you play Blue, which means you can counter something, or Brainstorm into a new threat. Because of this, I chose not to run 4 Witness, as finding answers quickly without spending 1GG every time is nice.