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CavernNinja
02-22-2005, 05:18 AM
This is a deck that I have been working on for a long time. It has recently gained the awesome nod into the Legacy Metagame Forum by my fellow Legacy Adepts and the lone Vintage Restricted Adept. In this post I will meerly post two decklists that are crafted out of large amounts of testing and work on the deck. On this page (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=607) you will find an always updated FAQ and primer for the deck. And please read up on the old discussion (http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=136) to prep yourself for this one.

My list, this is currently what I'm playing as of the last Top 4 place in a tournament:

Welder Survival
//Engines
4|Goblin Welder
4|Survival of the Fittest

//Mana
4|Birds of Paradise
1|Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1|Quirion Ranger

//Draw and Search
4|Thirst for Knowledge
2|Intuition

//Fat
1|Triskelion
1|Phyrexian Colossus
1|Sundering Titan
1|Platinum Angel

//Weld Bait
1|Pentavus
1|Shield Sphere

//The Tools
1|Duplicant
2|Eternal Witness
1|Viridian Zealot
1|Uktabi Orangutan/Keldon Vandals
1|Genesis
1|Anger
1|Squee, Goblin Nabob
1|Spore Frog
1|Goblin Sharpshooter
1|Wood Elves
1|??????

//Trees, Hills, and Rocks oh, and Jewels
5|Forest
3|Tropical Island
4|Taiga
4|Wooded Foothills
1|Windswept Heath
2|Tree of Tales
3|Chrome Mox

Thanks Odd Mutation for the solid list and viable competator for the format. I have slightly modified it to include more drastic differences between my list and his.


Red (8)

4 Goblin Welder
2 Anger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Green (15)

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
2 Eternal Witness

Blue (6)

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition

Artifact (11)

4 Pentad Prism
2 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Pentavus
1 Shield Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds

Lands (20)

3 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Tree of Tales
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest

With a second Titan and Anger the Intuitions were increased to three, also allowing for the awesome play of Intuition for Crucible, Wasteland, Tree/Prism for some face wreckage against Survival and control alike. With this combination you can easily set up wasteland lock by welding in the Crucible and going to town with Wasteland. Another very interesting difference is Sylvan Safekeeper, the guy is awesome at protecting Welder in the late game, however is not so hot in the early game when you want to aggresively put a Titan into play, keep in mind that he is always a 1/1 for 1 and always is Survivalable.



Edited By CavernNinja on 1109186506

Bane of the Living
02-22-2005, 01:14 PM
Im glad to see safekeeper as a maindeck contender. Especially considering he eats Swords for breakfast, being the only removal some decks pack in early game, he insures the important game winning weld you need. How well is the whole Crucible plan working? I did try it and I cant say I was satisfied with how it worked. It's nice to intuition for yes, but in so many other instances I'd rather be playing Intuition to fetch my fatty threats. Like you said this is an aggresive deck. I would consider wastelock a control aspect that gums up the decks focus.

If your worried about non-basics like tomb, why not include a copy of ravenous baboons. Silly I know, but you can survival him out, and he can be imprinted. Im testing various surprise tools such as him, and even dosan. Dosan is not controls friend. And often invokes preemtive mass removal, or eats a Swords.

Aggro bites, and crucible has no teeth.

jeremys
02-22-2005, 02:00 PM
How often do you find yourself wishing the moxen were something else? They seem bit iffy due to the lack of imprintable cards. Have you thought about lotus petal, or maybe mox diamond? I can see the petal maybe not being enough since it's just a one shot deal, although it could be welded back in a pinch. Then again there are much better things to be welded. Mox diamond may not be all that great either since you do want a lot of early mana but it seems like land may be more easily disposable than creatures.

CavernNinja
02-22-2005, 02:10 PM
Mox Diamond is unplayable. It requires atleast 23 land and that is far too many slots for an aggro deck. As for Lotus Petal there is no way that I will play it as long as the sun shines on this earth. It can't be used for mana and welded and as such is more than chaff in the deck. I have discussed in detail why I do or don't like Mox and have replied to questions on it numerous times, please read up on the old discussions if you have questions. The fact is that I don't know which I like more, for now I'm playing Mox because speed is cool, but the lack of imprintable cards and the card disadvantage have lost me games where I would have easily won if it had been Prism.

Odd Mutation
02-22-2005, 08:27 PM
@ CavernNinja: Thanks for putting my list together with yours and for the correct clarifications about the differences in both decklists. I also would've liked to include a third Intuition but it's hard to cut things. I don't agree on cutting a Tree of Tales (or the 4th Tropical Island) to make room for the third Intuition (or the Wasteland). I would even prefer more land then less land and now the deck is stuck with only 19. Also, I believe you need four Trees. The only reason to take one out would be to replace it with a forest to make Rofellos better. I found it so hard to cut anything that I stuck with only two Intuition. Metagame considerations might offer a justifaction to replace a card for another Intuition, my list surely could use an extra one.

@ bane_of_the_living:


If your worried about non-basics like tomb, why not include a copy of ravenous baboons.

Cool idea but 'till now, I've really liked the Crucible. It gets my own lands back after a Titan, or a Tree of Tales when I've sacrificed it to a Welder activation. And if I'm playing the Crucible, it's easy to include the lone Wasteland. You're right that it's slow but I think you can agree that this has proven to be a solid tactic (against some decks) and I don't feel that it hinders this deck at all. The most important task for the Crucible though, is to bring your mountains (Taiga's) and Tree of Tales back from the dead.

If I would include a nonbasic landkiller I would opt for Dwarven Miner instead (or maybe Avalanche Riders for their, although costly, sinergy with Genesis). Actually, I might give him a try altogether. I can see him doing crazy stuff with the Sylvan Safekeeper keeping him alive and with Quirion Ranger to get the most out of the miner... just not sure if it will work in real life. I am actually trying to see if a single Trinisphere has a place in the deck to completely lock your opponent out of the game (it would be a nasty surprise against combo decks as well as delay the game when paired against heavy burn decks). Of course, timing the sphere would be crucial. I am aware of the fact that these look like crazy ideas and they may prove to be utterly useless or overkill but no harm can be done by testing them.

@ jeremys: In my humble opinion, if you want a mox in the deck it should definitely be Chrome Mox but I like the Pentad Prisms a lot better. I would even prefer Talismans over Prism if speed was not such an important factor. In fact, when facing control, the Talismans are a lot better then Prisms but a lot of times you just can't waste time and Prism beats the Talisman. Lotus Petal is awful here. You want an artifact that helps you out with mana and stays around to be welded. And you'll never want to weld in a Petal...


Regards,

Odd mute.

jeremys
02-23-2005, 12:14 AM
Very true, and I don't think I ever said it was a good suggestion, if I gave that impression it was certainly unintentional. I like the speed of the mox but I don't know how big a fan I am of the potential deadness in hand. What about elvish spirit guide? It's a one shot, like petal but it can be survivaled if not needed and you don't have to pitch anything to it. It's faster than the prism but it gives 1 less mana and it can't be welded out like the prism, or the mox for that matter.

CavernNinja
02-23-2005, 12:32 AM
My list is running 5 free artifacts, that is fairly light and could probably afford to be higher than that, a list running 2-4 would be horrid due the lack of things to weld out. ESG just doesn't make the cut for acceleration because you can't weld it which is more important than being able to Survival it.

Odd Mutation
02-23-2005, 10:31 AM
Hi,

CavernNinja said it. You need your mana helpers to stay around. Either for the mana support (Birds of Paradise) or to be welded for your win conditions (Pentad Prism or Chrome Mox). I actually tested with Llanowar Elves, Elvish Spirit Guides, Birds of Paradise, Lotus Petal, Pentad Prisms, Chrome Moxen and Eladamri's Vineyards (not all together of course but all sorts of combinations). I have found that, to me, Birds and Prisms appear to be the best option.

This deck truly is a compromise between: "I want as much mana as possible", "I need enough creatures to make Survival useful" and "I never want to have Welder out without an artifact to weld". For example, that's why I definetely go with 4 Tree of Tales because it is a perfect compromise between demand number 1 and number 2. Crucible fits the bill as well and you could make similar cases for almost every card in the deck.

Greetings,

Odd Mute.

bigredmeanie
02-23-2005, 02:30 PM
CN by my count you run 7 free artifacts, Tree of Tales certainly counts as a free artifact.

I ran prisms for a while and was sceptical on how Chrome Mox's disadvantage could overcome the power of the Prism, but after a month or so of playing with Mox, I won't go back. Mox makes the deck an entire turn faster, and as CN stated increasing the number of free artifacts, which actually was a bigger deal than I thought. Another point in the Mox is that it is often less dead in that it can turn extra Survivals into green mana, which this deck likes alot.

Bane of the Living
02-23-2005, 11:52 PM
Extra survival is what I end up printing alot. It may seem silly in metagames gunning to take your survivals down, but you only really need to untap with it once to capitalize of it if you played it turn one.

My vote is also on 4 trees.

Cninja a large problem I see with your build is that you have no turn 1 but birds. Turn one is EXTREMELY important if your on the draw. Thats why I like mox and brainstorm. Oh I wouldn't count Welder as a turn one play EVER. I think it's silly to simply play him out unhasted or not under protection of safekeeper. I'm sure you agree.

CavernNinja
02-25-2005, 12:24 AM
I actually highly disagree with not playing Welder. You always have three more in the deck and there is very little chance that your oponent could remove all of them from the game. If Welder is my turn one play then he hits play, no questions asked. It is a blocker in some cases, a threat in others. In order to make Thirst and Intuition truly scary you really need an active Welder on the board.

bigredmeanie
02-25-2005, 11:11 AM
I agree with Cavern Ninja, playing a turn 1 welder is ok if you have a Thirst/Intuition in your opening hand as well, even if you know they are playing STP or some deck with a very limited number of removal spells.

Bane: The reason CN and I run fewer than 4 Trees is because it is not a basic Forest and thus does not work with Rofellos. There are already alot of nonbasics in the deck and I don't need Tree catching Artifact removal like Rack and Ruin and Deed.

GRAH
02-26-2005, 11:12 AM
Is the Crucible really necessary? When testing this deck, I often find Crucible to be a dead card that I never end up casting, because there are too many other things to do before it. I'm not against saying that I'm probably just bad with the deck, but I'm not much sold on the CoW, either.

CavernNinja
02-26-2005, 02:53 PM
Crucible is useful for a weld each turn and to thin out your land, however in all my testing I've found that it is most useful at combatting enemy crucible/waste or just lucky draws of lots of wasteland. It can also take the bite off of Titan by allowing you to replay your Taiga and still attack that turn.

GRAH
02-26-2005, 10:35 PM
How often do you use it, though? It just seems a bit unneeded to me.

Odd Mutation
02-28-2005, 08:12 AM
I use it all the time I Intuition for something like 2 x Titan + Crucible, 2 x Anger + Crucible or even Crucible + Wasteland + Eternal Witness. If you're not comfortable with the card, then leave it out. At worst it will bring you back a land (there are 6 fetchlands in the deck and 8 important lands like Taiga and Tree of Tales) and then be used for Welder fodder for a mere three mana!

Lately I find myself playing without Rofellos. I'll explain why:

* He rarely makes up for the investment necessary to get him out. When Survival is out you don't need him because you have the tool to get everything out at once. If I go for Rofellos, he almost never gives me more then one extra green mana the turn he comes into play and more times then not, just gives back the two green needed to cast him. Keep in mind that bringing him in costs you a creature from the Survival chain as well so he should be really worth it! If you have Quirion out he can do better but I prefer to use the ability from Quirion for Welder activations.

* People who are really fond of him seem to be taking out Tree of Tales to make Rofellos more powerful. It seems a bit strange to me to take out primary tools (the Trees) to make a secondary card (Rofellos) better.

* I find that speed is most important. I consider this deck to be a creature based combo deck. When I drop Survival I want to win this turn or ultimately in the next turn. To play Rofellos, even with active Anger (meaning you have a mountain in play), he only nets me 1 extra green mana at best the turn I want to win. I rarely even have three forests out at once. Agreed, the next turn he will do great things but I'll be able to do enough with three forest out! Of course, all of this is when you have a Survival out. If you don't have Survival you probably wont have a Rofellos either since there is only one copy.

* The only time when I seem to like Rofellos is when playing control matchups and when "the battle for more mana" is important. In this matchup I would prefer three Rofellos main deck!

So all of this to say that I consider him more of an overkill card then essential to the mechanic of the deck.

I expect a lot of you to disagree with me on this. Please, state your opinions with some form of explanation.

Greetings,

Odd Mute.

DJ Catchem
02-28-2005, 11:38 AM
I agree on cutting Rofellos. THis deck doesn't have the same issues with mana that ATS has, since Welder Survival uses it's toolbox for free. I have had much more success running a rainbow non-basic manabase and a Turbo-Titan approach. The multi-lands allow for a much wider set of sideboard options as well, and Crucible becomes much stronger with Gemstones MD. I regularly get the Titan weld loop going by the 3rd turn, which is just game-ending in most cases.

Here's my mana base:
3xTree Of Tales
3xChrome Mox
3xTaiga
1xForest
1xMountain
4xWooded Foothills
4xCity Of Brass
4xGemstone Mine

-Rofellos
-Spore Frog
-Wood Elves
+second Titan
+2Crucible

--->DJ

pohlo
02-28-2005, 11:57 AM
Odd Mute-

I agree with not playing Rofellos anymore. Rofellos is great for mana acceleration at various points but I believe that it has horrible synergy with Sundering Titan, which is one of the decks main win conditions. Admittedly there are sometimes where you will not be losing a forest when welding in the Titan however I do believe that often you will be losing one. This makes Rofellos that much less effective. I am uncertain as to what could be added to the deck to replace Rofellos, however I believe that it should be taken out. Anyways those are just my two cents on the matter.

bigredmeanie
02-28-2005, 12:41 PM
I disagree with cutting Rofellos, he often acts like Welder number 6. He is a must counter/kill for control. The ability to play him turn 2 and tap out to play a Trike/Duplicant/Pentavus turn 3 can and does win games. He does the exact same thing as Welder accept he doesn't cost you another artifact. I agree that he is anti-synergetic with Titan, however he is very synergetic with Pentavus, and he is redundant. Redundancy is something that most Survival decks don't have, and don't forget the entire reason that blue was added to this deck was to help take away the dependancy on Survival. Rofellos also helps to do that, considering that this deck curves out at 8.

I got 3rd place in a 55 person tourney with this deck, matchup resulsts to follow.

Odd Mutation
02-28-2005, 01:01 PM
I am uncertain as to what could be added to the deck to replace Rofellos, however I believe that it should be taken out.

Well, a third Intuition would be high on my list. Depending on your exact build and metagame there should be a lot of options.


He often acts like Welder number 6.

What is number five? :) No really, I understand your point. I believe that this is only an issue when facing control decks. As I said in my previous post, in this scenario I would like 3 Rofellos in the deck. But I do not feel it is necessary to include just one copy in the main deck for this purpose. He could be a sideboard option then, although I think that there are better options available to help you against control.

Genesis is in the deck 'to have more copies of Welder in the deck then strictly allowed'.

I agree with DJ Catchem. The general aim of the deck is to use Goblin Welder as fast as possible to gain a decisive advantage on your opponent. The added bonus of Survival is that you can play with a useful toolbox as well but the emphasis is on the combo play. If Survival would not be as good to the decks' goal as it is, I wouldn't play it. It is there for the same reasons and more that Thirst for Knowledge and, to a lesser extent, Intuition are in the deck.

Regards,

Odd mute.

bigredmeanie
02-28-2005, 02:18 PM
What is number five?

Quirion Ranger is number 5.

I often do not go get Rofellos with Survival, I go straight for the throat with Welder unless I'm going the Pentavus route. Weakening the control matchup by cutting another 2 drop isn't a good idea in my opinion. This deck can have some serious problems with control if an early Survival is not resolved.

Odd Mutation
02-28-2005, 02:47 PM
I'm sorry bigredmeanie, but I do not agree with you on both accounts.

Not so important: I wouldn't consider Quirion Ranger as Welder number 5 because you still need a Welder for Quirion to become one... At least Rofellos is considered to be able to take over the role of Welder by himself.

More important: In my opinion, the game against control is not really just about Survival. It is more about having more mana available then the control player because you'll be wanting to play multiple spells a turn. While you have a threat out, this can even be a beating Welder or Squee, you are building on your mana base and gathering important cards in your hand . At first he/she will laugh at you but the small critter will start eating away until the life total becomes low enough for him/her to become nervous and make mistakes. You'd play a Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition at his End Step, countered or not, it should give you an advantage in your next turn. When you have gathered multiple threats in your hand, you play those spells and if you have more mana available then he needs to counter everything, you will get an important spell out, more often then not winning you the game. Welder Survival has a form of inevitability against control as long as it developes a strong mana base.

Eternal Witness is gold in this matchup because it will get a countered spell back and at the same time put a 2/1 body on the table. It is something they will want to counter and if they don't, it should be to your advantage!

Odd Mute.

DJ Catchem
02-28-2005, 03:13 PM
I think you're both a little correct here. The control matchup is about *tempo*, which is hard to define with this deck. We give up control elements with this deck in order to gain a massive tempo swing with Welder and an artifact toolbox. ATS can counter a first-turn threat, but it can't get going until it can pay for the Tradewind soft lock. We bend over to a turn-one Belcher activation, but we can remove any permanant or swing with a hasted Titan turn 2. What I'm seeing here is an attempt to out-race mana resources to win the control mirror, and I think that's the wrong way to go; this is also the reason I think Rofellos is a wasted slot most of the time.

Instead, we need to capitalize on our tempo advantage, and the fact that counters are fundamentally terrible answers to a deck that plays from it's graveyard. It's good to keep some of the more functional utility choices that makes an ATS build differ from our decks in there (Anger, Squee, Genesis), and use them to focus on the blistering speed that comes from our tempo advantage. My game plan versus control is to get a Welder and survival into play as soon as humanly possible, and then cover myself with Genesis and Witness and get active with Anger. Then, bring on the Titans. (Or my other super secret tech...=P) Control can get by with just a few mana open for it's counters, but they can't counter if they can't afford to. Control simply can't deal with it's lands disappearing to Titan in the early game, and they can't deal with a 7/10 swing each turn starting on turn 2.

--->DJ

bigredmeanie
02-28-2005, 03:40 PM
When you guys talk about control, what kind of control decks are you playing against? When I say control Im talking about u/x decks, ones that play burn like Fire/Ice and Bolt or ones that play Swords and Wrath of God.



Posted on Feb. 28 2005,11:13
I think you're both a little correct here. The control matchup is about *tempo*, which is hard to define with this deck. We give up control elements with this deck in order to gain a massive tempo swing with Welder and an artifact toolbox.

That is exactly how this deck wins. It gains massive tempo advantage by activating a Welder. That same thing is accomplished by activating a Rofellos reguardless of the matchup.

So I think that we can all agree that Rofellos is a must counter to control decks. So if you cut Rofellos and add a 3rd Ituition than you essentially just removed a must counter in the matchup. They don't have to counter an Intuition in every game, it depends on the board, however they always have to counter a Rofellos in order to win the resource war. Are you guys having problems in the control matchup anyway? I like boarding in 3 Boils. That card wins games all by itself.

DJ Catchem
02-28-2005, 03:57 PM
<<<When you guys talk about control, what kind of control decks are you playing against? When I say control Im talking about u/x decks, ones that play burn like Fire/Ice and Bolt or ones that play Swords and Wrath of God.>>>

I spent the weekend testing against both Landstill and Grow, which both pack a ton of counters and removal. Landstill, in particular, is a nightmare.

<<<That same thing is accomplished by activating a Rofellos reguardless of the matchup. >>>

Rofellos isn't nearly the tempo swing that a Welder is. It is a swing, but not nearly as big.

<<<So I think that we can all agree that Rofellos is a must counter to control decks.>>>

I disagree. Rofellos is a weak beater that pumps out some mana, and is not a must counter at all. Welder takes a Tree Of Tales and makes it into a Titan. *That* is a must counter. Rofellos is for all intents and purposes as much of a must-counter as a tutor of any kind...I.E., let it resolve, and counter what it tries to bring into play next. Welder just brings anything you want into play directly.

Hey...I do agree on the Boil. It's a house. =)

--->DJ

Odd Mutation
02-28-2005, 05:20 PM
Hi Bigredmeanie and DJCatchem,

I am sorry DJCatchem but I disagree. As experience, testing and tournement play has proven, Welder Survival is a difficult matchup for control. Not solely because of its potential speed but more so because of the enevitability it has. If you build up your mana base against control you will come to the point where control simply cannot counter every threat you throw at them. You should capitalize on the one threat that will come through.

The reason I don't think speed is the most threatening thing to control, is because that it is entirely dependant on a Survival resolving (apart from a lucky Thirst for Knowledge with Welder and artifact in play, a play not very likely to happen often...). You only have speed in the combo because of Survival. It is easier for control to win against you if you blow too many resources trying to win by sheer speed. Take your time, develop a steady mana base so you can play multiple threats in one turn, preferably after you've tried an Intuition or Thirst for Knowledge at the end of your opponents turn. Of course if opportunity arises, grab it!

As I said before, I do agree with bigredmeanie in a way because Rofellos helps you to play those 'multiple threats'. As a matter of fact, the Pentad Prisms will take over the role of Rofellos as I charge them and use them in one of the following turns. The point is to overwhelm the control player with troublesome cards, of which you have enough. If you can put a control player in topdeck mode, you've practically won the game...

Luckily, control is very hard to play and mistakes are easily made! It is easier for us (although not a 'walk in the park', certainly not when you consider all different versions being played) to play against control then it is for them to play against Welder Survival.

Swords to plowshares is not the end of the world actually because of Anger and Sylvan Safekeeper. As Wrath of God is not played a lot, the risk of overextending yourself is limited (if you do fear it you could play Caller of the Claw). You don't have the need to overextend yourself because they will die to a 1/1 in twenty turns just as well as they die to a 5/5 in four turns. Nevinyrral's Disk is not game over either because it will probably require them to tap out or at least invest heavily manawise so you can profit from that as well. Brown Ouphe could stop a Disk... ;)

I'm not saying I know it all, I'm just expressing my views and I am looking forward to your responses! I do appreciate these constructive discussions a lot!

Greetings,

Odd Mute.

P.S. Just a note. I don't agree with bigredmeanie's remark about not having to counter Intuition because of a board position. It is not only dependant on what is on the board but also dependant on what I am holding in my hand! The best part is that the control player doesn't know what is in my hand and might be in for a nasty surprise..

CavernNinja
02-28-2005, 06:08 PM
LandStill is a bye if you aren't playing against an amazing pilot. You should be playing for either a tempo based win or a card advantage based win, it all depends upon what you have in your opening hand. I have won games because I could continue to play out threats through Genesis and Survival and I have also wone by getting a second or third turn Titan, it all depends upon what you do with your muligan and with your turn one. You need to quickly decide how you're going to play the game and stick with that game plan. As for Rofellos, I have never lost a game where I resolved and activated him against control. The elf fulfills every desire of the matchup, speed and threats, he is an effecient bear or a giant mana swing, either of which can, in the right situations, win the game on their own.

As for my play against control I have made a really goofy change to the deck recently that I haven't had a chance to play around with, I cut Boil from the board and replaced it with Basking Rootwalla. That way a resolved Survival is a very scary thing for them to see as it can be a large army with a simple untap. Great work guys, way to pick up my slack :)

DJ Catchem
02-28-2005, 08:44 PM
Landstill was certainly not a bye im my testing. This build ran Wrath, STP, and Slice and Dice, plus Crucible/Waste. The ridiculous amount of draw made it dangerous to sit back and build a mana base, and the S&D made it nearly impossible for an early game lead.

In my experience with the deck, I've found that it works better for me when I don't try to play it like ATS and go the mana route. I fare far better against control when I run the deck as the beatdown and present threats as quick as possible. Welder is a must-counter. Survival is a must-counter. Resolve one as quick as possible, and the control matchup is much stronger.

Like I said, this is just my experience. Once I switched to the rainbow land/Crucible/TurboTitan route, it got much stronger overall.

--->DJ

BoTS
02-28-2005, 11:11 PM
I also disagree with the assumption that Landstill is a bye, at lesat from the Landstill player's perception. As long as I am able to counter/Disenchant an early Survival, the game usually rolls along in my favor. Wrath, Swords, Crucible, Disk, and Disenchant are all bad news for you. Crucible + Wasteland usually goes to town with your mana base, and Crucible itself allows you to comeback from an early 7/10. As if this weren't enough, the double-white, double-generic enchantment known as humility makes you enter you scoop phase game one, and usually means game two and three sans a resolved Naturalize. Every card that doesn't Draw cards or make mana is meant to stop everything you play, meaning more than half the deck is geared toward disrupting your early advantage and then slowly stealing your life away via Assembly Workers, Faeries, and Dragons.

I think that on the contrary to your statement, it takes an a skilled WeldSur pilot to be able to consistently beat Landstill player, and then when the Landstill player is also skilled, it something like 60-40 or more in their favor games one through three.

DJ Catchem
02-28-2005, 11:45 PM
BoTs is right on. In fact, I just got done testing another round of Grow, and it was awful. Anything that runs heavy counters can cause a huge problem for anyone using this deck. Here was a notable game:

Me:Taiga, Welder.
Him:Tropical.
Me:Tree, Survival
Him:Force. Mage, naming Survival.
Me:Eternal, grabbing Survival.
Him:More land, Dryad.
Me:Thirst, getting Another Survival, Welder, and land.
Him: Brainstorm. Force. Beat with a 3/3 Dryad.
Me: Mox, Land, Trike.
Him: Leak. Swords Welder. Mage naming Welder.
Me:Scoop.

I went 0/10 against Grow, and another 0 for 3 against Landstill before getting so frustrated I quit. That crap makes ATS look so much better than Welder Survival.

--->DJ
--->Heavy control is *so* not a bye for us.

freddyfurious
03-01-2005, 09:24 AM
I'm going back a bit to the "Rofellos is a must counter" comment.

I agree if you are playing RG, or ATS. But with this deck I have often found myself with Rofellos in play and 4 mana sources only 2 of which are forests. Granted this doesn’t happen all the time you have to consider Rofellos is weaker than he is in other decks and doesn’t actually present a threat until your in plan B and trying to hard cast your dudes.
Other wise he’s just worth a couple extra survival activations in the early game where you should just be winning the game.

On the other side you can argue he is just a one of and you can leave him in the backcourt most the time unless you’re in plan B a.k.a. losing the game…

Personally I think I’d like more blue cards that dig.

Just my .2
-Fury

DJ Catchem
03-01-2005, 12:10 PM
I agree completely with you, Fury. I'd love quite a few things over Rofellos in this deck. Another Intuition would serve much better in a deck trying to dump artifacts into the yard or find a Survival or Welder. I like a Titan in that slot too, for the reasons I stated before, and also because I'd hate to lose a card that pitches to Survival, but either way. I just feel Rofellos is not nearly as much a part of the central strategy of the deck that he is in the other Survival builds.

--->DJ

CavernNinja
03-01-2005, 12:20 PM
Ok, here is a little example of play against LS.

Endstep, Intuition, Force.
Main phase, Intuition, resolves - Get Genesis, Anger, Witness (Survival in yard). At this point every thirst I play is a must-counter and all my creatures have haste.
Again on main phase Thirst, force.
Next turn, Thirst main phase(force), second main, thirst, resolves. I win the game in a few turns via the insanely large tempo and card advantage that the incarnations give me. My opening hand was Intuition, Intuition, Thirst, Thirst, Thirst, trop, fetch. Against control that is a winning hand. My first draw was a Survival and then straight land after.

Ok, another quick set up against control. I slow play it playing out threats like Welders, Rangers and Thirsts until I know he doesn't have a counter and drop a Survival, I activate it twice, once to get Genesis and once to pitch Genesis getting Witness. Game over for Control game 1. The way to really play against control if you don't have the hand to move quickly and drop Titan turn 2/3 is to get Genesis because he is that damn amazing against all forms of control.

Of course I've had the games where I drop a turn 1 Survival and he doesn't have the counter so I win soon after, but those are not very abundant, and the number of times I've had a turn 2 Survival stick are fairly low as well. So I guess what I'm saying is that you should try to slow play it against control a little and just get Genesis and Witness in the yard and win the game right then and there.

DJ Catchem
03-01-2005, 01:48 PM
I know it's not an auto-loss by any means, but the draws you just listed are more of an anomoly than the norm, and the testing I've done is with someone I consider to be one of the better players in my area, and certainly the best control player. He knows that you don't let a Welder stay active, you don't let a Survival resolve, and you don't let the deck draw. Against players like this, who know their decks and the matchup very well, I maintain that we're at a disadvantage. Slow-playing it rarely helps here, because he can simply sit back and stockpile counters...and he does, because he understands the matchup. I'm sure it would be different if I was playing against someone who wasn't expecting it, or didn't know the deck so well. In fact, I'm trying it this Thrusday in such a field, so we'll see. But all else considered, this is not a good matchup.

I'm interested in what percentages you see versus control like that. Do you have some figures?

--->DJ

bigredmeanie
03-02-2005, 12:08 PM
Here is the matchup analysis From my lasst tourney. I figured it would be useful because there was such a large tournout.

Mckinney Tx
Madness Games
55 Players
20$ Unlimited Black Lotus +4 Boxes of Betrayers
6 rounds of swiss cutting to top 8

The difference in deck list I was running included 2 Trikes, 1 FTK, 4 Chrome Mox, 3 Tree of Tales, no Platinum Angel or Phyrexian Colossus. I also prefer Keldon Vandals to Viridian Shaman.

Here is the Side I was running:
3 Boil
2 FTK
1 Silklash Spider
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Bottle Gnomes
2 Null Rod
3 Nauralize
2 Tormod's Crypt

My frst round was against a b/g aggro control deck, someting like whats been floating around here accept different, It runs Kokusho, Imawaru, and Troll + all the normal rock like disruption and mana base

I win game one, like I always do he is a friend of mine. But then he boards in 4 Withered Wretch and 3 Naturalize I board in 2 FTK
He gets early Wretches for my early Survival and early Smothers for multiple Welders. Then deeds for 3 to kill everything on the board and playes another Wretch. Game 3 I go t1 Bird he goes turn 1 Duress taking my Survival, see game 2.

0-1

My second opponent was playing u/g Fish Not really a good deck or player, I make short work of him game 1. In goes 3 Boil and 1 sharpshooter. His first land for the game was a yavamaya coast which instantly makes boil almost a dead card, but I end up casing one late game anyway. He wins game 2 due to a Cloud of Faries equiped with a Sword of Fire/Ice. Game 3 I win quickly with multiple Sharpshooters on the board.

1-1

My second opponent was playing an elf and nail deck equipped to easily play third turn titans with tooth and nail. I win game because he isn't running any disrupion, and I get a sharpshooter and kill all of his elves. Game 2 I board in the other Sharpshooter and when it hits the board he helps me kill him. I won that match in about 15 minutes.

2-1

I don't remember what my 3rd round was against but it was nothing special I won.

My fifth round was against another friend playing a deck he calls the smirfs. It was u/w aggro control with 3 main deck Cursed Totem and Enlightned Tutors. I'm at a disadvantage because he knows what im playing and I don't know what hes playing.

He wins the die roll and says plains go. I lay a forest, bird, go. at my endstep he cast enlightned tutor to get a totem. His turn 2 he drops an island and plays the totem. my turn 2 i play survival tapped out and say go. his turn 3 he plays a Meddling mage naming welder says go. needless to say it was a long game, but I pulled it oub because of the main deck beats. I went aggro on him I he ends up playing another totem and swords my vandals the first time it saw play. It was a good game but I ended up casting trike and pentavus and just attacking with them as creatures, I still had haste and was able to draw into enough land to play them early enough. game 2 i board in naturalize and ftk. I win because he never sees a totem and my deck does what its supposed to. turn 1 Survival 2 to Welded fat.

4-1

Ive got to win the 6th round to make top 8 there are to many undefeated players for 4-2 to make it. My opponent was playing r/g aggro with Kird Apes, Rancors, Grim Lavamancer, and cursed scroll. I made short work of the little critters with Duplicant, and 2 Trikes. It wasn't much fun it was a beating. I boarded in 2 FTK. I won in 2.

5-1

When we cut to top 8 I'm in second place behind a 5-0-1

First round in top 8 was against u/w landstill. It was a good match, Boil out of the board was absolutely amazing. He swords 2 welders and countered 1, but the last welder won me the game. I won in 2.

6-1

Top four Play against slow R/G aggro It was redilous, I win game 1 due to a fast start on my part. He wins game 2 due to a fast start on his part. And game 3 the he has a Rancored Troll and 2 Kird Apes I have a Survival and about 8 mana but no creatures in play. Squee, anger, and 2 trikes were removed from the game via crypt and I had no cards in hand. All I need is a ceature to Survival away and get Spike Weaver to hopefully stall long enough to pull it out, but I top deck a land even after poping the foothills I had in play. I'm not sure If I made any play mistakes, but I should have beaten that deck, it wasn't that fast.

6-2

So I scub out in Third place and U/R Fish beats U/R aggro in 2 for an unlimmited Black Lotus.

I end up with 1/2 box of Betrayers for my trouble. I didn't miss Platinum Angel or Phyrexian Colosus at all. The second Trike was amazing. Often I welded an empty Trike for a full one. Talk about machine gun action. It was fun, losing my first round was the best thing that could have happened, I went into the loosers bracket and I was the best deck and player their until we cut to top 8. Oh well, I have about 2 months to playtest for a playset of duals for first place.

DJ Catchem
03-02-2005, 01:30 PM
Pretty sweet. It sucks to lose to the draw...it sounds like you may have gone all the way.

Incidentally, I also have considered yanking Platinum, as I never really need it. Maybe I'll stick it in the board for now. And I already pulled Phyrexian Colossus. I replaced it with the better Colossus. =)

The B/G matchup is interesting to me. I think it better illustrates the real issue with this deck, which is an issue dealing with control early on. Logically, this could be counters or LD, or an ass-ton of removal like in this case. What's the best solution?

--->DJ

Ewokslayer
03-02-2005, 01:44 PM
But then he boards in 4 Withered Wretch and 3 Naturalize I board in 2 FTK
He gets early Wretches for my early Survival and early Smothers for multiple Welders. Then deeds for 3 to kill everything on the board and playes another Wretch.

If you have an early Survival the Withered Wretchs should be dealt with via FTKs making both them and Smothers useless. It seems like you lost because you were unable to adjust the deck's game plan and fully take on the beatdown role that you had to in order to win.


And I already pulled Phyrexian Colossus. I replaced it with the better Colossus. =)
Which Colossus would that be? Colossus of Sardia?

bigredmeanie
03-02-2005, 02:28 PM
If you have an early Survival the Withered Wretchs should be dealt with via FTKs making both them and Smothers useless. It seems like you lost because you were unable to adjust the deck's game plan and fully take on the beatdown role that you had to in order to win.

It was never that straight forward. We have done alot of playtesting together. You can'g go aggro with a deck like Welder Survival against 4 Trolls, 4 Deeds, and 4 Smothers main deck. Deed makes it very difficult to create any sort of solid mana base with birds and rangers so we are left to playing lands that are not artifacts and holding Chrome Mox until he blows Deed the first time. It also runs Wasteland so only 4 mana sources in this entire deck aren't succeptable to his disruption. It's a difficult matchup every time. And in my experience its in our favor game 1 and in his favor after board. Game 2 and 3 all he has to do is mulligan into turn 1 Duress and he trumps our best hand.

Mad Zur
03-02-2005, 06:15 PM
My opening hand was Intuition, Intuition, Thirst, Thirst, Thirst, trop, fetch. Against control that is a winning hand. My first draw was a Survival and then straight land after.
If you draw six out of ten threats by turn two, then yes, you're in pretty good shape. Clearly that's good; the issue is how often things like that happen.

Ok, another quick set up against control. I slow play it playing out threats like Welders, Rangers and Thirsts until I know he doesn't have a counter and drop a Survival,
One of those things is a must-counter, at best. You've got four Survivals as your unconditional threats, and then you've got Welding in fat as your other threatening plan. To stop the latter, they will either go after the Thirst/Intuition, for fear of Genesis and you gaining card advantage, or they will go after the Welder, because it's often easier (only four and they're vulnerable to creature removal, though they come out sooner). So in the above example, they could let Welder resolve, let Ranger resolve (it isn't a threat unless you've already got an active Welder anyway), and then counter Thirst and Survival, likely with enough time to find removal for the 1/1s before they die. Or they could let all three resolve, but kill Welder, and then they would only need one counter to stop Survival. If the control player maintains a consistent strategy, you'll have either eight or ten important threats, backed up by a slow clock composed of somewhat inefficient utility creatures.

Peter_Rotten
03-02-2005, 08:14 PM
On the flip side of the coin, while I was playing control, I just recently had my ass handed to by a Welder Survival player from NYC. I assume that much of the game plan against control resolves around putting Jenny (my new name for Genesis - like it or die in a fire) in the yard. Once Genesis was in the yard, I knew that the game was over. With about 8-10 ways to put him there, it is tough for a control deck to consistently prevent that from happening.

Also, game three, I had plenty of counters but was falling prey to Rofellos, Witness, and Anger dancing in the red zone! Those three munchkins nearly went the distance.

Braves54321
03-02-2005, 09:06 PM
On the flip side of the coin, while I was playing control, I just recently had my ass handed to by a Welder Survival player from NYC.

Also realize you weren't playing landstill, which seems to have a much better game vs welder survival than normal control decks in my experience. I believe that regular control cannot handle this deck. Landstill seems to run so much creature hate, as well as crucible lock, as well as mb disenchant, all of which are pretty key cards to the matchup. Genesis can still give landstill fits, but I don't think its the same though becuase landstill can still attack the decks mostly non basic land mana base w/wasteland crucible(which other control decks like bbs or wubs don't run). When you have only have 3-4 land in play genesis becomes much weaker.

Odd Mutation
03-03-2005, 05:58 AM
Hi everybody,

I do not know if anybody has tried changing blue for white? As it is clear that the greatest power in the deck is Survival of the Fittest we could try to get it out more. If you drop blue for white you have six open slots (2 x Intuition, 4 x Thirst for Knowledge) and lands are easily replaced (4 x Tropical Island -> 4 x Savannah). This would make room for 4 x Enlightened Tutor and another two cards which could be toolbox enchantments or something like Argivian find. Enlightened Tutor would rarely be a dead card although it's still card disadvantage because of the draw you sacrifice, but this is countered by the power of the card you can get which will mostly be Survival. With all the artifact creatures in the deck it even functions as a creature to get a Survival chain going or it can get an artifact for Welder activations or even help you develop your mana base by getting Tree of Tales or Pentad Prism. Examples of great toolbox enchantments are Seal of Cleansing, Null Rod, Choke, Zuran Orb against red ... and I'm sure we can think of many more! We might then have to change the deck's name to Toolbox.Dec :).

Has anybody tried this? Or if you haven't -I actually haven't tried it, it is just something I thought of recently but I am excited about the idea- please share your thoughts. I will try this out next weekend when I go to my club, so for now this is just thinking out loud...

Odd Mute.

EDIT: spelling and more ideas...

SpatulaOfTheAges
03-03-2005, 06:16 AM
I assume that much of the game plan against control resolves around putting Jenny (my new name for Genesis - like it or die in a fire) in the yard.
Have you like...looked...at the picture? It's a masculine centaur. He's got a beard. Calling him Jenny would earn you a hoof to the head and a sickle to the liver. Since I posted this, I should probably say something on topic.

Odd Mutation - Intuition can get you Survival too, but serves others functions as well. Granted it doesn't curve nearly as well, but on the other hand, it's useful if you all ready have a Survival, unlike E. Tutor, and it's not card disadvantage. Also. TFK is pretty useful at making Welder a threat without Survival. Argivian Find isn't a bad argument for white, and Seal of Cleansing would be good to have, but overall it's probably weaker than blue.

Odd Mutation
03-03-2005, 06:36 AM
In the beginning, when we were discussing this deck at The Mana Drain, I was the one who suggested the inclusion of Intuition so I am well aware of the power of the blue cards and their inclusion in the deck. I am just asking myself if white doesn't offer you more. I will try it out though before making any bold statements. For now I just wanted some feedback and ideas. It's because I became to realize that speed is so important against certain matchups that the Tutor came to my mind and as I said in my previous post, Enlightened can help you with more then only Survival, if that wasn't enough...

Odd Mute.

DJ Catchem
03-03-2005, 08:03 AM
White in this deck wouldn't be all that bad, since it opens up better removal and fantastic sideboard options like STP and Worship, but it can't come at the price of losing blue. THis deck runs a dual game; Survival is killer to get the Welder engine running, but it can play a straight game with either side of that house as well. Intuition, as said by Odd, powers out both, where E. Tutor only helps the Welder gameplan. And Thirst is the only draw engine in the deck, besides the obvious benefits of Welder synergy.

No Blue must stay.

--->DJ
--->For Peter...Yes, I do run Colossus of Sardia MD. It's about on par with Pyrexian Colossus as far as usefulness goes...Usually, it is a two turn clock due to fetch lands, where the P isn't always. And if you're playing either Colossus, chances are you're using a Welder anyway, so the life-untap on the P isn't really all that useful. (And not surprising...who attacks into a tapped P?) The main reason is that I found a real AQ version, which I had traded heavily for to find back when I was playing about 10 years ago. And it won me my first tourney then, so it's more of a throwback for me. =)

bigredmeanie
03-03-2005, 11:43 AM
DJ are you crazy? You must be from the moon. Phyrexian Colossus is strictly better than Colossus of Sardia. P Colossus has the best form of evasion ever, and really isn't slower than the stupid Sardine Colossus. I'm not running a colossus of any kind, I found that its lack of overall utility went againt what this deck is trying to do, so I added a 2nd Triskelion. :O

As for the talk of adding white. It's inferior to blue in this deck. Thirst for Knowledge is ablolutely amazing It gives us something to do when they have a Meddling Mage naming survival. If you take out blue than you make the already difficult control matchup almost unwinable, They will just counter you survival anyway and you loose a draw. Loosing a draw is a big deal to this deck, especially considering it wants to top deck a land within the first 2 turns.
And as for your talk on STP in the board. We already have one better. It's called Duplicant. And you could never take out spells/creature to board in STP. thats just dumb. If you need reomval run FTK it does everything its supposed to, and it always 2-1's.

DJ Catchem
03-03-2005, 01:03 PM
@Bigred:

Like I said...the Colossus is a throwback. It's got killer artwork, and looks great black border. =)

Realistically, I was never using the P.C. at all, except to pitch to Survival. I threw the CoS in for the fun of it, and actually ended up using it a few times. It's a pretty intimidating hasted turn 2 beater. But really, in a serious environment, I wouldn't ever run either colossus. They'd get pulled for Trike #2 or Titan #2.

As far as removal goes, Duplicant is great...if you have an active Welder or a ton of mana. When U/X drops Mage turn 2 naming Survival with counter backup, how do you plan on sneaking a Duplicant across? The same goes for FTK...How do you answer an early Mage? Because that's the real threat to this deck. THe whole strategy of Welder Survival falls apart when it can't resolve ways to get out it's big utility beaters.

Personally, I have no problem boarding out a Wood Elf or Ranger (or spore frog or whatever) to board in spot removal instants if they're needed. You need to remain that flexible...not to mention it has *already* worked very well for me.

--->DJ

bigredmeanie
03-03-2005, 01:28 PM
Well, they can't counter everything, and we've already talked about the control matchup. The general plan is to try and overwealm them with stuff. If a Survival resolves it really shouldn't be a problem to win, but if one doesn't resolve than cast as much stuff as possible and go aggro on them until they are forced to Wrath, then play your Survival. Seems to work that way for me pretty consistantly.

DJ Catchem
03-03-2005, 02:31 PM
Well, they can't counter everything

No...but if you look at Landstill, most builds run at least 10 counters, 4 of which are online immediately. Some run more. And this is in addition to removal, giving them anywhere from 14 to over 20 answers to our decks. If they know that they have to counter Survival, they have a decent plan against us. If we can't Survival, we need to ramp up to at least 6 mana to get a beater out. They have Wrath online by turn 4, wiping out Welders, Birds, Rofellos, Ranger, and anything else we've played. And I wholeheartedly disagree with the "Overwhelm with threats" theory against Landstill. If we can't table Survival, we're essentially casting small creatures or draw that says, "When *this* resolves, target opponent draws three cards." They *want* us to cast anything that isn't Survival all day long.

If this is Grow or U/W Scepter, we're looking at increased amounts of counters, and still decent removal, plus Mage. It's better, but still not good.


If a Survival resolves it really shouldn't be a problem to win

That's a HUGE 'if' since we don't run our own counters. If we essentially have 4 must-counters, and they have over 10 pieces of countermagic...bad odds there.


but if one doesn't resolve than cast as much stuff as possible and go aggro on them until they are forced to Wrath, then play your Survival.

Again, without Survival out, we give them tons of time to set up a defense. One that, almost always, includes Wrath with counter backup. You must be playing some sub-par control players. =)

Again, we can argue this all day. The point is that, while this deck can steal some wins, it relies on one card primarily, and with no countermagic, it is put in a bad position against control.

--->DJ
--->Which is why I ususally play Suicide Belcher. =P

Ewokslayer
03-03-2005, 04:23 PM
You keep saying that survival is the only threat but that is simply not true. Intuition and Thirst for knowledge are both threats in terms of dumping genesis in the yard and just get more dangerous if there is a Goblin Welder on the table.
After sideboard you have the addition of Boil and possibly Gigapede as threats against control.

BoTS
03-03-2005, 05:19 PM
But after sideboard, most control decks side in around 6-7+ hate cards, 3-4 usually being Tormod's Crypt, which completely rips this deck's balls off. Crypt is so much stronger against WeldSur because of its dependancy on Welding, Witnessesing, and Jennying, especially against control. A well-timed Wrath, Crypt, blow, go will often times spell GG in big huge letters all over your face, and this is a fairly common play seeing as how most builds of Landstill run three or four of each between the maindeck and sideboard.

DJ Catchem
03-04-2005, 10:51 AM
@Ewok:

True...Survival is not the ONLY threat this deck packs...but it is the CRUCIAL must counter. Most good control players will realize that countering TFK or Intuition will usually put a crimp on our plan as well, but realistically, Even dumping Genesis to the yard still only means that we can recur (and slowly at that...), where as a resolved Survival is the single-strongest play this deck has.

But as BoTs points out, the main point remains...while this deck has several game-plans, it is way to easy to put a hole in any/all of them. WeldSur works very similarly to Type 2 Tooth, in that both run a creature toolbox, and no real ways fo dealing with disruption. (Read: counters and removal) The game plan is to race to get set up, and then win with overwhelming redundancy and answers. THe problem in both cases is that if the race is disrupted, we're dead in the water. Here's an example I faced last night in a gunslinger format:

Game one was versus U/W control. Bad matchup, but I kept Trop, Foothills, Chrome Mox, Thirst, Birds, Welder, Welder. I go Foothills->Taiga->Birds. He goes Tundra->STP. I draw Birds, and go Trop->Birds->Welder. He goes Tundra->STP Welder. I draw DUplicant, and go TFK. He Forces, and drops a fetch on his turn. I draw Intuiton and play it. He Leaks it, and drops Isochron->Orim's Chant on his turn. GG.

I've come to a crossroads with this deck. It has a terrible matchup against control, now more than ever because control players know how to deal with Survival decks, and know particularly how easy it is to disrupt WeldSur's gameplan. Since the Legacy format is so control-heavy right now, there is NO way this deck can be truly viable without maindeck answers that aren't in creature form to control elements.

I'm not sure where this leads...is anyone else finding the same results as I am? Does anyone have any ideas as to what can be done here? This deck can certainly pick up a ton of game by packing the right key disruption spells and bluffing control out of it's counters with our key threats long enough to set up. (An example would be last night- I was thinking about packing 4 MD Fire/Ice, which would have allowed me to tap the Scepter on his endstep, or allow me to bluff at one of the welders to draw a counter, tap out his blue mana source preventing the Leak, and set up that way. Purely speculation, but a thought nonetheless.)

What's the thought here?

--->DJ

bigredmeanie
03-04-2005, 02:43 PM
Well I would say that if there is alot of control in your metagame and you don't think you can beat control than play a differnt deck. It seems to me like something along the lines of Zoo might do really well.

Is Boil not enough to beat those Scepter decks? I'll admit I haven't done much playtesting against Scepter control, but I generally have pretty decent games against other kinds of control, like landstill.

I don't like Fire/Ice. Something like Echeoing Truth is much better against Isochron Scepter.

Also, about Tormod's Crypt. You guys need to learn to play around tormods crypt. It is not really very good early game. If you know or even think that they boarding in crypts than don't load your graveyard with stuff. Set it up so that the best thing they will be removing is an Anger and almost nothing else, once you get them to remove the anger than just play multiple Welders and get Genesis so that you can keep them in play for a turn. I have won games with Crypts sittting on the board and me using Welder every turn, 2 Welders trumps a Crypt because I set it up so that the only thing that he will remove is an Anger and maybe a Squee and he knows it. Or go get Rofellos and just hardcast threats. It's really not that difficult.

DJ Catchem
03-04-2005, 03:37 PM
@Big Red:

Zoo sounds like fun and all, but that's besides the point of this thread. This thread is to try to make WeldSuv a stronger deck. (And besides...I have a Belcher build that I would use over any other deck if all I wanted to do was win. But I digress...)

Boil is great against control...if you can resolve one. And what control deck is going to let you do that? The whole point of my last post was to come up with reactive responses to control that will give this deck a better chance against control...especially pre-board. I also have a hard time believing this deck can post "pretty decent" matchups versus Landstill. I would put that matchup at somewhere near 30%-70% pre-board against us.

Echoing Truth is a fine sideboard card, but I'm not specifically looking for an anti-Scepter card. Fire/Ice is a better answer to control in general, as it taps out key lands to prevent counters and kills Mage, as well as dealing with Scepter, etc. It's also great in the mirror. Echoing Truth is terrible against Mage unless you're clearing the way to go off or drop something essential right then, as it just lets the control player revise their card choice.

--->DJ

bigredmeanie
03-04-2005, 07:25 PM
The whole point of my last post was to come up with reactive responses to control that will give this deck a better chance against control...especially pre-board

You must be playing some sub-par control players. =)


I am definately playing with control players that are not better than I am, but I'm using the playtest groups that are available to me.

I disagree with you strategy to come up with a reactive plan against control. Thats exactly how you lose to control. Control by definition is the reactive deck, I think you may be trying to do the wrong thing here. But If you want something to board that is reactive not proactive, than run REB. I ran it for a long time. It kills Mage, counters Standstill and just about everything else they want to play. But as far as a main deck answer to control, what do you take out for something like fire/ice.

DJ Catchem
03-05-2005, 02:53 AM
Control is the reactive deck, which by nature is designed to handle a proactive deck like this one. That's the big issue here. ATS is more successful than WeldSur because it can suport counters to protect itself, effectively running both game plans. THis deck just throws everything against the wall and hopes something will stick. Granted, it wins when something does, but it loses if nothing does.It needs a game plan in the way of instants that can help the matchup against control. Control can just shut it down in too many ways.

If I were to go in with Fire/Ice, I'd probably pull the Colossus, the Wood Elves, and perhaps the Angel, and use the open metagame slot. THat's strictly off the top of my head, so don't quote me here, but something along these lines.

--->DJ

CavernNinja
03-06-2005, 05:20 AM
WelderSurvival is an aggro deck. It uses it's threats as effeciently as it can to deal 20 damage as quick as it can. By definition and many years of seeing it happen aggro beats control because there are too many threats for control to deal with. This is basic stuff here that really shouldn't have to be discussed. In any match against control you are the beatdown in every game, you want to deal 20 damage. Period. There should be no reacting to what they are doing, they should always be reacting to what you're doing, as soon as you start reacting you are trying to save the game, so starting out be trying to be more reactive than them is a terrible idea. You present a threat, ride that threat as long as it is valid and present another one. Don't overextend, don't show too weak of a board position. I think that you are all having tough times against LS because of your lack of playskill quite frankly. This discussion has lost a large amount of it's credibility because of some of the obsurd things that have been said in it. As for Tormod's Crypt, it could be that the best way to deal with it is to board a second Anger as I have said before. The second Anger lets you drop one and then later drop the second one after a crypt. There have been times that I've wished to have it and times that it seemed like a dumb idea, but either way, if you are facing a large amount of graveyard hate you should be looking for non-graveyard ways to win, such as Arrogant Wurm, Basking Rootwalla, a second Anger and so on.

The way that Genesis wins is it lets you ride one threat for a long time. An Eternal Witness or even a Wood Elves can become a threat if it is recurred often enough. The way that little critters win is be attacking, large numbers of times, Ranger, Welder, Rofellos and Zealot are all effecient P/T for Casting Cost which means that control should worry about their stats as well as their abilities.

As for the white splash, it has been discussed and was actually the first version of the deck. It is weaker. Enlightened Tutor just isn't all that helpful for the deck, sure it gets a Survival but after that it's useless. Thirst on the other hand is quite usefull on it's own but also offers a draw engine to find Survival. I do miss having Seal of Cleansing in the deck but it doesn't make up for the lack of strength in white.

This deck is not a suicide aggro deck, it has a toolbox for a reason, it has ways to deal with what your opponent is doing. It runs Zealot/Monkey to deal with artifacts and enchantments in the way. It runs Sharpshooter, Trisk and Duplicant to deal with creatures. It runs Rofellos to deal with Crypt, E. Plague and other things that mess with Welder. It runs Spore Frog to deal with faster aggro decks. If you are playing this as a straight aggro deck with no other game plan then you've got a few things to learn. Always remember that Survival is not a tool only to get Anger, Sundering Titan, and Welder with Shield Sphere in there sometimes, it is also a tool to get your answers like Platinum Angel, Sharpshooter and Wood Elves. Yes, the deck wants to do damage and attack but sometimes there are things getting in the way and the deck has ways to take out road blocks as well.

As for Phyrexian Colossus...I don't understand how you guys cut him so easily, he's won almost as many games as Titan has for me. There are times that it makes a lot more sense to grab him and win instead of getting Titan, losing haste and hopefully winning in a few turns. His untap ability has come into play many times. If your opponent has a lightning bolt to send at your Welder after zapping your Survival then you can win by paying the 8 life and beating for the win. Colossus' ability isn't even that much of a draw back a lot of the time, it basically gives him vigilance, and an 8/8 blocker can be a big deal against a lot of decks.

So to sign off I really want to kill the idea that WeldSur is a combo deck. It just isn't, it's really closer to an aggro-control deck than a combo deck. The cards in it are very powerful and can create a very quick clock but that doesn't make it a combo deck. There is nothing in the deck that has the phrase "win the game" written on it. There is no infinite loop or win through anything but attacking. The Red Zone is quite important and cannot be ignored. If you can get your head out of the combo thinking then you will probably start to get a better understanding of the deck and how to play it.

DJ Catchem
03-06-2005, 11:20 AM
I think that you are all having tough times against LS because of your lack of playskill quite frankly.

I find this amusing. Actually, never mind. I'm not wasting my time on this stupid comment.


It just isn't, it's really closer to an aggro-control deck than a combo deck.

No, it's not closer to an aggro-control deck, it IS an aggro control deck. Toolbox decks seek to use their resources to answer anything that comes along, develop a board position that is superior, and win with efficient beaters. Straight aggro decks like Stompy drop a land each turn and attack each turn with a curved-out supply of threats, hoping to win through sheer numbers. Straight control decks seek to neutralize threats via an array of counters and disruption, and win with a game plan of attrition.

If you want to look at the classic format definition, combo beats aggro, aggro beats control, and control beats combo. In this format, however, the lines blur. Combo can often deal with control by using quick disruption to remove counters and just win (Belcher), and control can deal with aggro due to increased aggro threats as part of it's game-plan (Grow). With a blurring of the lines here, we have a basic issue to deal with in running WeldSur, which is simply that *no* deck runs a straight game anymore.

My issue is that WeldSur is Aggro-Control. Landstill and Grow are COntrol-Aggro. The subtle distinction is that the control decks pack more defined answers to us then we do for them, and are much faster at that. We need to have an active Survival and Welder to be at our strongest, and either of the two as a secondary position of strength. If control does it's control thing and denies us either? We have a huge problem.


The way that little critters win is be attacking, large numbers of times, Ranger, Welder, Rofellos and Zealot are all effecient P/T for Casting Cost which means that control should worry about their stats as well as their abilities.


Here's the problem with this- if control denies us our key elements in Welder and Survival, we're stuck running the mini-beats game plan. Which simply doesnt work, since control decks pack creatures with much more efficient P/T ratios. Landstill can drop a turn one Factory, which can chump-block any of the above creatures and live through it...or just cycle a SLice And Dice, throw down a Pyroclasm, Bolt, Wrath, STP, Disk, or whatever, and wipe our board. Grow has guys that just end up huge by turn four, and that shuts that plan down as well...and then they can Wrath, STP, etc. Nothing is getting through for long.

And what if one of these guys tables a ScepterChant? With no instants in the deck, it's GG.

By all means...if you think you can out-threat a control deck, please do by all means. I can tell you first hand that I've been doing nothing but playing and testing these matchups for the last two weeks, and with a group of players that know Survival decks and control decks and have been playing them for years. THis deck just posts terrible results against both LS and Grow. Even the Survival player has gone back to ATS. I'm really interested to see what testing you've done that refutes this. I'd be happy to detail ours.

In the meantime, this deck just dropped to last place in my stable, behind Belcher, LS, and Grow. Oh...and Solidarity. Even that was stronger against control.

--->DJ

Mulletus
03-07-2005, 01:39 AM
Ok I may be way off base here, but I have tried to build this and I think Junk Diver might fit nicely. I keep running out of junk to sac to welder, and don't feel like using Genisis, then recasting just to sac. And whitness is nice, but can't be sac'd to welder. A Junk Diver costs just as much as Whitness, is all colorless to cast, and it gives up one power to fly (blocks Angel, sacs to welder before damage = no life gain, and a new toy in play... not to mention the artifact you got back in the first place). It may actually be better with a more artifact base, I shall test further, and re-report.

bigredmeanie
03-07-2005, 11:46 AM
Junk Diver never does what you want it to. It is also a win more card. They only thing you want to return to your hand might ba a Mox, Tree, or a Shield Sphere. But if any of those cards are not in your graveyard than you might be forced to return the Sundering Titan that you discarded to Thirst for Knowledge. It's uses are too narrow for us to cut utility for it. But let us know how your testing goes anyway.

CavernNinja
03-07-2005, 08:20 PM
There is that odd-ball slot that I keep wanting to fill with something other than Bottle Gnomes and Myr Retriever has definately been tested by me. Junk Diver, in this situation, is strictly worse than Myr Retriever. The flying really won't do much and the effects are exactly the same but the Retriever is more easily cast.

mulder
03-09-2005, 12:16 PM
How about adding 1 Solemn Simulacrum? I think it's very cheap for what it does, and most of all it's great in combination with Welder. It lets you draw cards, chump block and fix your mana base. And if you can weld it in again, you et some pretty good card advantage.

bigredmeanie
03-09-2005, 12:55 PM
I played a Solemn in a much older build of this deck, and it's not that great aside from being a 4 cc 2/2 it does nothing to improve the game status. I'm still running the FTK in the metagame slot and It's amazing. I'd run more if I could.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-09-2005, 04:58 PM
First of all: CN, the argument that because Welder-Surival is an Aggro deck, and that Aggro decks usually beat Control decks, that therefore Welder-Survival usually beats Aggro is inherently flawed, and ignores several things, like; regardless of any number of early threats being countered, most Aggro decks have a mana curve that allows them to hardcast any given card in their library within a handful of turns. This deck doesn't. In my playtesting against this exact same build, any Control deck maindecking Humility is very much favored Game 1. There aren't a lot of things that need to be countered before Humility can come down; a second turn Survival or Rofellos are pretty much it.

BoTS
03-09-2005, 06:32 PM
...any Control deck maindecking Humility is very much favored Game 1. There aren't a lot of things that need to be countered before Humility can come down; a second turn Survival or Rofellos are pretty much it.
Exactly. Sure the deck has the potential to smash control, but on the flipside of the argument control has the same potential, if not more, to smash WeldSur due to the amount of removal it has. An early Humility will ensure that your only chance of winning will be going ShittyOneOneAggro.Dec, and that's also assuming you can get a genesis in the yard. Now assuming that Landstill manages to get a Crucible, or any white control deck gets an Eternal Dragon or Decree of Justice off, then it means that you lose.


By definition and many years of seeing it happen aggro beats control because there are too many threats for control to deal with.

Sure, aggro decks generally beat control or used to beat control decks, but that very vague and generalized assumption has become more and more of a fallacy in recent sets due to the amount of amazing cards they have given control. Crucible, Exalted Angel, Decree of Justice, and Pulse of the Fields are some of the more heavily played cards that give control a much better game against aggro. The fact is that these threats all give you so much card advantage in one way or another that it effectively combats the overwhelming redunancy packed in Aggro decks these days.



Edited By BoTS on 1110407709

bigredmeanie
03-14-2005, 02:34 PM
I'd like to talk about KrzyMoose inclusion of Troll Ascetic in his build. I don't agree with everything he ran in the Lotus tourney, but he did get second place and results speak for themselves. Troll Ascetic might be just what we were looking for to help in the control matchup. As I recall its a house against control. What do you guys think? He also ran scald in his sb. That may be better than Boil, which I have been playing in my SB. A turn 1 Scald is just as much game over as a turn 1 Survival. All you have to do is deal them damage as quickly as possible and watch them die every time they tap Islands.

jeremys
03-20-2005, 09:34 PM
I think boil would be a better choice as it is less easy to deal with than scald. Scald is cheaper and could do some damage but can be bounced or disenchanted with little damage to your opponent. Boil has to be countered or its a huge tempo loss for them. Boil also doesn't want to come down too fast since it's more efficient after a few more turns anyway. Worst case it eats a counterspell and you go on to play something good anyway. I haven't played a lot against control but I've found end of turn boil to be a good thing. Hey, there's another good point, it's an instant.

Also, has anyone thought about/tested avalanche riders in that one oddball slot? I have FTK in there at the moment but he hasn't been that useful for me. I will admit I'm not overly familiar with the deck but it seems that trike does as good a job with creature removal and can be welded in and out and anything with an ass bigger than 3 will probably be untargetable anyway. They cost less than casting and activating dwarven miner and they can hit basic land as well. I'll probably toss one in and see how it goes but I was curious if anyone else had tried them.

I think my favorite part of playing the deck so far is walking around between rounds and hearing someone say "....he welded in sundering titan, then I lost....."

CavernNinja
03-21-2005, 02:35 AM
My favorite part about playing this deck has been the awesome answer to the age-old insult of "you stupid net-decker" I just love being able to say "actually, I'm the guy that made the deck, and posted it on both SCG and MTG."

The problem I see with Avalanche Riders is that it doesn't do much, by the time you can Survival for it and play it the minimal tempo loss isn't that important and the 2/2 isn't very impressive. I just can't imagine a time that I would really dig for it rather than Anger, Titan, Welder, play Welder destroy lots of lands. Same goes for Triskelion. I'm still looking for ideas and I really have been meaning to test Ticking Gnomes, he has the benefit of being weldable if I need it and creature removal if I need that. But for the most part the decks that Ticking Gnomes is good against Bottle Gnomes is better against. If I were to play more supplemental land destruction it would probably be orcish settlers, with Rofellos you could very easily take down your opponent's entire manabase if you needed, it's strong against manlands and cities and can definately take up some of the slack that Titan can leave behind.

After testing and tournament play I have deemed Basking Rootwalla to be well worth the board slots. He gives you a good answer to Crypt/Furnace/Ground Seal and has won me a couple games by his little old self. If there was a way to fit him main I would be unfortunately the deck is just too tight to get him in there.

jeremys
03-21-2005, 05:30 AM
I'm curious why you're so excited about the ticking gnomes, to me they seem about one third as good as triskelion, maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be surprised if I was)
I like the basking rootwalla idea. I haven't been really happy with my sideboard but I don't really have a handle on the portland metagame yet and even if I did it seems to be kinda random. Just to throw out a random idea, how does cycling work with survival? I'm thinking you can do one or the other but not both. (ie you can't cycle a card since you're already discarding it to survival, right?)
I probably can't get away with saying I made and posted the deck so I'll have to content myself with people telling their friends about my welding in sundering titan for the win. Clearly he needs a snazzy nickname too, if we can have jenny, then we can have Steve, the sundering titan :p

scrumdogg
03-21-2005, 11:06 AM
My favorite part about playing this deck has been the awesome answer to the age-old insult of "you stupid net-decker" I just love being able to say "actually, I'm the guy that made the deck, and posted it on both SCG and MTG."
Sigged :cool: as that is such a satisfying experience..... The Orcish Settlers seems like a much better supplementary LD option than Riders or dwarves, as they are all tutorable but Settlers has a much larger impact. They cannot be welded, but they can make sure the opponent has no way to stop a subsequent Welder.....which is all this deck really needs to win...correct?

bigredmeanie
03-21-2005, 12:56 PM
So after all that we still haven't discussed Troll Ascetic.

I ran 3 this weekend, I cut my 4th Chrome Mox, an Eternal Witness, and moved the Goblin Sharpshooter to the board. It did ok, my matchups weren't the best for him, and it wasn't a fast enough clock against Fish or against Burn.deck, but he did do what I wanted him to. I'm going to leave him in for now.

CN, what is your current sb looking like? You say you really like the inclusion of Basking Rootwalla, but isn't he only good if you resolve a Survival? He is easily fired in multiples and you never have the resources to pump them and do other things. It just seems like the control deck has easy answers to the little 1/1, even if you did chain 3 into play.

CavernNinja
03-23-2005, 11:49 AM
Rootwalla is best with Survival on the board however without Survival you can ride a Rootwalla for a long time against LS. The only creature they have to remove it is a pumped factory so they really have to send removal at it.

Ticking Gnomes is never going to be welded into play instead of Trisk however it can be welded out of play for a trisk. Also being a 3/3 for 3 he is a solid threat against control. Basically he is a really bad trisk but he's got other benefits like costing only 3 mana.

jeremys
03-23-2005, 04:32 PM
I missed the fact they're a 3/3 for 3 (not counting echo) they may be worth a look after all. I definitely like rootwallas (3) in the board. They seem like a good choice in a random meta since they can be sided out for critters you may not need (lyrist/monkey/zealot against sligh for instance) Better to side in something of at least minimal value for a 1/1 with an ability you don't need if you have nothing better, plus they're a good threat against control and they kill bad things like turn 1 lackeys.
The version I've been taking to the smallish to medium tournaments in the greater portland area is pretty standard,
-1 squee
-1 chrome mox
+1 pentad prism
+1 witness
bottle gnomes in the ????? slot

my sb is something like
4 reb
3 naturalize
3 tormods crypt/phyrexian furnace
3 rootwalla
2 bottle gnomes
Now on to the questions:

Dude, you're not running Squee, are you nuts? Possibly. Pretty much what I want to do is survival 2 or 3 times and win (dump anger, find titan/colossus, dump fat, find welder if needed, and win) Squee doesn't do anything other than come back to my hand and I'd rather have another witness or utility/lifegain critter (there's lots of burn/sligh in the area)
Pentad prism and chrome mox, can't you make a decision? Yes, errrr, no, ummmm, pass. Actually I can, I've decided chrome mox is better, and expensive, and it can't be eaten. Untill monday I was running a single, borrowed, mox, since I won the tournament monday night I now have one of my own, if I win 2 more times or so I'll probably have 3, first turn survival is very good.

Bottle gnomes? I'm open to considering spike feeder or ravenous baloth here but the gnomes seem to be working fine, and can be welded.

Here's a quick, and moderately accurate report from monday night:

Round 1
Affinity- game one I don't see a survival but he doesn't see much either, I think I ended up winning with eternal witness beatdown. Game 2, in come the naturalizes and I get 2 in my opening hand, eternal witness brings one back and colossus gets welded infor the win

Round 2
mono red ankh burn- I get down to a scary life total fairly quickly and start recurring bottle gnomes until I can weld in a win. Game 2 in come the extra gnomes. I get an early survival and weld in titan to destroy his only land, he conceeds.

Round 3
RGSA - game one I realy don't remember but I got rid of his mana critters and he conceeded. Game 2 he did something to win, actually games one and two may be reversed. Game three ended up going to time although I would have won with one more turn. This was an odd match since in theory we were both playing survival decks but between us we saw 1 in the three games, even with me TFKing several times.

Round 4
vial (vile) goblins?- We pretty much decided we were going to split since it was getting late and we were probably going to be top 2 regardless but played while we were waiting on the other 2 to finish. Game 1 he gets a sgc of turn 1 lackey, turn 2 piledriver, I get nothing and proceed to lose very quickly. Game 2, in come the gnomes and rootwallas, I remember it being close but I won, bottle gnomes helped. Game 3, I trisk/sharpshooter away most of his team and proceed to win.

Not a bad showing (for me more than the deck, we've already established the deck is good) granted it was a small field, 10 people I think, and not really sporting the top decks, but considering I've only been back and playing for about two weeks I don't think I made too many play mistakes/bad decisions. I tend to keep questionable hands sometimes although usually only after muliganning once or twice. I get scared at the prospect of going down to 5 cards but I suppose that's normal.

bigredmeanie
03-23-2005, 06:05 PM
Has anyone considered Copper Gnomes? It's a 1/1 for 2 that says pay 4 sac, put an artifact from your hand into pay. Seems good. They now have to counter something else. It is also an ability so it can't be countered, less Stiffle. Might be worth trying. Don't know what I'll cut to include him, but I'll find something. I guess it also depends on meta.

AngryTroll
03-24-2005, 04:09 PM
I was playing RGSA in the Tournament jeremys reported.

Game one, I kept a one lander with 2 x mana critters, and good cards to support it. This may have been after a mulligan....anyway, in retrospect, I should have tossed it. However, being on the draw, with a solid 1 drop and a Troll (?..I think so), meant that I should have been in good shape. Oh well. I proceed to draw 3cc, 4cc, and 5cc creatures for the rest of the game. He Intuitioned for Titan, Trisk, and Genesis at one point. I gave him the Titan, and he cast a Welder. I lost next turn when he left me with one Tiaga on the board, quickly approching 8 mana. No Survivals for either of us.

Game two, I mulliganed a 7 land hand, into a no lander (on average, they my land count has been great!), into 5 solid cards. I went beatdown with a turn two Troll, turn three Baloth, and his turn one Lyrist did nothing, as that entire game went without a Survival.

Game three, ended up in the extra turns. He resolved a Survival late in the game, and started going crazy. However, he had just 2 attacks left, and I had 2x Tormod's Crypt in play to deal with Anger and Welder Tricks. He ended up at one life, and I had Shivan Wurm and Troll in play. I had haste, so Goblin Sharpshooter = win. I don't draw it, he survivaled up a Duplicant, and ate the Wurm. We tied.

There was a rumor that there were two decks running Survival of the Fittest at that tournament, but obviously there weren't. I was playing really bad R/G aggro, and jeremys was obviously playing some bad U/G/R artifact deck. Noob. Everyone knows artifacts are colorless! The deck performed decently without a Survival in play, however. TFK and Intuition carried the deck where Survival did not, and I was impressed with the ability for the deck to run without half of it's namesake cards.

In retrospect, I will steal a trick from Type One and pack Lave Dart to kill Welders, and make sure that Lyrists or Naturalizes eat Survival early. Tormod's Crypt was also useful, but if he had had Survival, I expect that the Crypt would have only been a speedbump.

bigredmeanie
03-24-2005, 06:38 PM
Crypt is generaly only good when we don't draw Survival and are playing on Thirsts and Intuition.

Your assumption that the deck can perform w/o its namesake is correct against slower decks like RGSA or even ATS if they don't draw Survival.

EDIT: In my experience in the survival v survival matchup this deck should come out ahead considering if it works than Sundering Titan never kills my own lands. We all run Sharpshooter, and it hurts all the decks equally bad if a hasted 1 resolves. I guess it's just a toss up to see how the dice falls.

noobslayer
04-23-2005, 10:16 PM
Might I suggest Careful Study and Bosh, Iron Golem? In my very limited testing of this sort of deck, both of those seemed to offer quick threats, and strong ones at that.

bigredmeanie
04-23-2005, 10:57 PM
If you want to use Careful Study you would need to be running some sort of reanimate spells for consistancy as well as Welder. Look into the Teen Titans deck that was run in extended. It was pretty good in my testing vs some of the Legacy decks. But as far as careful study in welder survival, I don't like it, because there arent that many artifact threats, and certainly not enough reanimate effects. Plus it's card dis-advantage, which is not our friend.

KrzyMoose
04-24-2005, 12:44 AM
Well, yes and no. Careful Study can be a cheap TFK. It only costs one, and can get Anger, Genesis, artifacts into the 'yard. My only thing about it is it's a sorcery. Card drawing needs to be instant-speed to be effective, and TFK is just that. While I, personally, wouldn't run the Study, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

MattH
04-24-2005, 07:21 PM
Plus it's card dis-advantage, which is not our friend.
It's not card disadvantage if you're discarding a huge guy you cannot reasonably cast (or an incarnation you want in the graveyard). You're turning a dead card in hand into a not-dead one in the graveyard.

Careful Study is not card-disadvantage for the same reason Brainstorm+shuffle is card advantage: turning dead cards into not-dead ones.

If you're tossing cards you intended to cast, then yes, it's disadvantageous, but as long as you're tossing cards that are meant to be tossed, it's very very good.

bigredmeanie
04-25-2005, 10:19 AM
Careful Study is a lot more situational than Brainstorm or TFK. You almost can't cast it if you don't have something in your hand you want discarded. I like Careful Study in some decks, but this 1 not so much. We can not abuse Careful Study like madness can or some other reanimate style deck.

KrzyMoose
04-25-2005, 10:59 PM
Well, yes and no. Careful Study is really just TFK for cheaper. We're going to discard 1-2 cards anyway, and I'd rather pay one mana to do that, rather than three. Either way, we might drop something we want to drop, or drop something we don't want to drop.

However, Study does draw one less card. And, and this is the worst thing about it, it is a sorcery. As I stated earlier, card drawing almost always has to be instant-speed to be worth it. Maybe not so much in this deck, but I'm still not big on that.

*shrugs* I think you can go either way. Someone should actually test Study though...

Ewokslayer
04-26-2005, 11:11 AM
There appear to be a few misconceptions from the last few posts concerning Careful Study, Card Advantage, and Counting.


It's not card disadvantage if you're discarding a huge guy you cannot reasonably cast (or an incarnation you want in the graveyard). You're turning a dead card in hand into a not-dead one in the graveyard.

Careful Study is not card-disadvantage for the same reason Brainstorm+shuffle is card advantage: turning dead cards into not-dead ones.

If you're tossing cards you intended to cast, then yes, it's disadvantageous, but as long as you're tossing cards that are meant to be tossed, it's very very good.

It doesn’t matter if Careful Study causes a million dollars to fall from the sky and hot chicks to jump your bones it is still card-disadvantage. You can tell by counting.
Cast Careful Study (-1)
Draw Two Cards (+2)
Discard Two Cards (-2)
Net Result (-1)
An easy way to figure that out is to cast Careful Study as the only card in your hand. You start with one card and end with zero cards, thus Card-Disadvantage. You can argue that the deck doesn’t mind the inherent and unavoidable card-disadvantage of Careful Study because its effect is so beneficial to the deck, but you can’t argue that it is not card disadvantage.

As for Brainstorm it is always, ALWAYS, Card Parity. You spend a card to draw a card. The fact that you can dig three deep and combined with a shuffle effect potentially remove dead draws from your future turns doesn’t make it card advantage just good.


Careful Study is really just TFK for cheaper. We're going to discard 1-2 cards anyway, and I'd rather pay one mana to do that, rather than three. Either way, we might drop something we want to drop, or drop something we don't want to drop. However, Study does draw one less card.


Careful Study does not equal Thirst for Knowledge. Thirst for Knowledge is at worst Card Parity and in an artifact based deck such as this one is often Card Advantage. Careful Study is inferior to TFK in this deck in just about every manner.
Thirst digs deeper (already mentioned)
Thirst is an instant (already mentioned)
Thirst Provides Card Advantage
Thirst is a 100% better top deck
Thirst fits the curve for the Plan B play (which is what Careful Study and TFK are in the deck; Plan A being Turn 1-2 Survival, Turn 2-3 Titan.)
It also should be mentioned that the deck already has enough problems with the card disadvantage caused by chrome mox. Adding another source of disadvantage doesn't sound like the best move.

CavernNinja
04-26-2005, 11:53 AM
I whole heartedly agree with everything that Ewok just said but would like to open up one of his minor points more. This deck can easily fall victim to the top deck against some decks, such as control and pox/sui/void/whatevermonobdeckthatsucks and in that situation Careful Study is not very strong, it in fact sucks because you aren't doing anything that turn, not even laying a land making it more likely that you'll maybe able to hardcast whatever hugely overcosted things you draw.

MattH
04-27-2005, 09:36 PM
You're still counting it wrong. Look at this way: Careful study undoes certain kinds of inherent card disadvantage. If you get to pull out an example, so do I:

In hand: Careful Study, Titan, Anger.
Before playing anything, you have effectively ONE card in hand (I do not consider an overpriced Grey Ogre to be useful).

Play Study (-1)
Draw two cards (+2)
Discard Titan
Discard Anger

Now your hand has two fresh, useful cards in it. You've also turned your dead Anger in hand into a very live one in the graveyard. Same with the uncastable Titan. Both of those are now "active" (depending on whether you have a mountain for anger or Welder/Exhume/something to take advantage of the Titan), so they're also not lost cards (+2).

Your "hand" (by which I mean your set of non-dead cards) is now four cards, instead of one. I call that card advantage.

In this deck, study will not generate card advatage on its own (whereas discarding two Rootwallas would be pure card advantage) but it takes the card-disadvantageous cards which you are already running and takes away that disadvantage.

In other words, you start off "negative" and end up at card parity (or better). So what happened? You gained card advantage. Just because it can't take you from "parity" to "positive" doesn't mean it's not card advantage.

Careful Study undoes card disadvantage, and in that way it is card advatage. It is a poor topdeck (in this deck) and probably not worth running, but to say that it is "always card disadvantage" is to have a weak, outdated, 1997-era definition of card advantage.

CavernNinja
04-28-2005, 12:29 AM
Except I'm running 8 things that I want to see in the yard, and 1 thing that doesn't matter because he comes back. That's just not enough reason to run a forced discard that inherently is disadvantagous. If I was running Teen Titans with 15-20 cards that I want to pitch and 8-10 ways to reanimate them I'd be happy to run it.

LunchBox
04-28-2005, 10:21 AM
In hand: Careful Study, Titan, Anger.
Before playing anything, you have effectively ONE card in hand (I do not consider an overpriced Grey Ogre to be useful).

Play Study (-1)
Draw two cards (+2)
Discard Titan
Discard Anger

Now your hand has two fresh, useful cards in it. You've also turned your dead Anger in hand into a very live one in the graveyard. Same with the uncastable Titan. Both of those are now "active" (depending on whether you have a mountain for anger or Welder/Exhume/something to take advantage of the Titan), so they're also not lost cards (+2).

Your "hand" (by which I mean your set of non-dead cards) is now four cards, instead of one. I call that card advantage.


Just to be complete, if you played Thirst for Knowledge in this position, you'd get another card:

Play Thirst (-1)
Draw Three cards (+3)
Discard Titan
Discard Anger

So for 2 colorless, you get instant speed and an additional card. So even in this example, Thirst is still better.

bigredmeanie
05-03-2005, 12:16 AM
Ok, so the last PGI event for a while was this past Saturday.
Here is the deck I played.

4 Survival of the fittest
4 Goblin Welder

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Birds of paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos, Llanawar Emissary

1 Wood Elves
1 Shiled Sphere

1 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Masticore

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Spore Frog
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Squee

3 Chrome Mox
3 Tree of Tales
4 Forest
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath

SB
2 Naturalize
2 Null Rod
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Silklash Spider
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Bottle Gnomes
2 Mog Fanatic
3 Boil
2 Tormod's Crypt

There were between 49 and 53 players.

Round 1 The guy was playing B/R Ponza. Not a very good build of it either. Quirion Ranger pretty much beats land destruction. The 1 welder I drew game 1 got bolted, so I just layed bad beats and swung. Game 2 was better.

2-0

Round 2: UW/R Fish, we get deck checked, and that literally took 23 minutes. Judge gave us that much time. We only had time to play 1 game. He wasn't very good with his deck, I used Quirion Ranger and Sharpshooter to stall for a long time. His deck was running multiple Sword of Fire/Ice. They were annoying, Especially when he started equiping them to Factories. Game takes forever, we both play slow, I win by 4 life. Go me. We both made a few game deciding play mistakes, mine was just when I had more life, so I was able to recover. I eventually resolve a Survival, and win.

2-0

Round 3 UG/R Madness. This should be a good match for me. with main deck FTK, and Duplicant, I don't usually lose to UG, but the addition of Bolt and Firestorm makes the matchup worse for me. In game 1 and 3 he goes turn 3 Intuition for 3 Firestorm to wrath my board on his turn 4, I wasn't really able to recover game 1,and he beats with hasty critters. Game 2 he boards in Jitte, assuming I boarded out my Shaman, I did not. His turn 3 Jitte was blown away by my turn 4 Shaman, that I topdecked, and I win next turn when Survival resolves and Titan blows up all his lands and none of mine. Game 3, it seems like I made a playmistake somewhere, but I don't know what it was. I had a Mox heavy hand, but I resolve a turn 2 Survival. I do some good, trying to set up, then he uses Engineered Explosives to blow the Survival, then the very next turn uses another 1 at 0 to blow the 2 Moxes. It was bad for me after that, I never drew anymore land.

2-1

Round 4 BBS I was actually kinda worried about game 1, It went for a while, I never get a Survival and was recurring a Trike with Genesis, and pinging him for 2 and the Trike once so that his Shackels would not take it. He resolves a Morphling, and beats for 15 and I lose. I board in 3 boils. Game 2 ends quickly in my favor. Game 3 early survival gets countered. I get a boil on his turn 3 killing 3 islands and losing one myself. I play a ranger and a sporefrog my turn 4. They start attacking alot. He gets stuck at 1 land for a while, more ranger beats. as soon as he gets 2 more lands he has a scepter with a counterspell open. but at that point I have 2 boils in my hand, I cast both at the end of that turn and have 1 resolve. He scoops when I topdeck anger and play it when he is at 4. Good match

3-1

Round 5 New player playing Goblins. He must have been doing well, bc I only had 1 loss. He wasn't very good, I beat him in 2. He gets land screwed 1 game, but Sharpshooter holds him off for along time.

4-1

Round 6 UR fish piloted by NeoMike. We have to play, bc there were to many other 4-1's for us to be sure and make it in to top 8. So we play. Game 1 I lose to Crucible wasteland, it sucked, By the end of the game I had all 4 Thirsts in my hand with only 1 Forest in play. It was bad. I board in 2 Mog Fanatics, and 2 Boils,

bc it's my teck against Fish, which has a BETTET THAN AVERAGE matchup against Survival DECKS OF EVERY KIND.

Game 2 i resolve a turn 2 Survival with Bird back up, and win a few turn later. Game 3 was good. I do not ever get a Survival but a Thirst discarded Anger and a Titan on my turn 3. Later I resolve a Welder, and imediately weld in the titan, losing a Forest. I got to keep a Tiaga and a Trop, I blow up a Tundra and a Volcanic of his, and he has 2 Factories, and 2 Clouds. His turn he tries to play a Submerge with no Island in play and I tell him he cant do that, so he plays another Tundra and then Submerges the Titan. I blow the tundra, and I lose a Taiga. At this point I have 1 Trop a Welder, a tree of tales, and a mox with green inprinted. He wins a few turn later, bc there asn't anything in my grave. I tried my best, I play a fanatic and a shield sphere, but during his turn he Submerges the Shield Sphere, and attacks with all his men. He was lucky, he drew 3 Submerges, and I got no other card draw, or Survivals. He wins. Was a good match

4-2

I do not make top 8 at 4-2 even though I thought I had a good chance, bc both my loses were going to make the top 8, but I end up in 11th, so I went home. I was kinda disapinted in losing to UG/r, but Brent is a Pro Tour player, so I guess it's ok.

The Brainstorms worked really well for me, though sometimes it felt like the deck was missing something, like Survivals, I had 1 in play about half the time that day, I couldn't draw them for crap. I need to add another shuffle effect to make the Brainstorms more effective, or go
-1 Thirst
+1 Intuition

that would probably be ok.

jeremys
05-03-2005, 04:20 AM
So you like brainstorm over intuition? I hven't tried brainstorm but i've rarely been unhappy to draw intuition, even if I already have survial and more so if I don't.

You've probably played the deck more than I have but it seems to me intuition works better with the deck. It nets you a card you want as opposed to a random one and/or dumps critters in the graveyard to be welded. If you were running 3x intuition you may have seen more survivals.

bigredmeanie
05-03-2005, 01:54 PM
Well, Intuition is more powerful than Brainstorm, but Brainstorm is faster, and can protect you from Duress. I did miss being able to Intuition for 3 Survivals, but that really is the main use for the card, I don't think that running 3 is the correct number. 2 is fine, but I had been trying Brainstorm for a while and wanted to see how it did at the tournament. It did fine, not great, not poop.

MattH
05-04-2005, 02:37 PM
Has anyone tried running a Tradewind Rider in here? It's still a very useful card even when your deck isn't single-mindedly focused on it, you still run the Rangers to abuse it, and with this manabase you're more likely than ATS to have Anger active. Is there just no need for it?

CavernNinja
05-04-2005, 02:56 PM
Why would you get Tradewind Rider over say, Sundering Titan or Duplicant or Trisk? All three of them allow for the same sort of disruption but they all have bodies attached, Trisk deals with lots of small dudes (like tradewind blocking and bouncing), Duplicant deals with anything moderately big (like a simple bounce from Rider) and Titan can easily much up your opponent's mana base in one turn where it can take multiple turns from Tradewind. And all of this comes for less mana. The only reason I could see to run Tradewind is if my opponent layed down a night of soul's betrayal.

MattH
05-05-2005, 01:10 PM
Because Tradewind can also deal with non-Humility enchantments and all sorts of artifacts, and without such a heinous green mana requirement as the Viridian guy. The versatility is the key.

CavernNinja
05-05-2005, 01:38 PM
I have only 3 mana sources in the deck that aren't always green, Chrome Mox. A Heinous green commitment might be a big deal in a deck that isn't all green mana sources but here in a survival deck there is no difference between colorless and green mana.

Solomox
05-07-2005, 11:19 PM
Just a thought, has Possessed Portal been considered? That + Squee will win a game single handedly.

bigredmeanie
05-07-2005, 11:54 PM
Posessed Portal is a card that needs a deck built around it, there is no way to get in other than Intuition, in this deck, and it's not always that good. Build a deck around it, it might be good enough.

Solomox
05-08-2005, 02:34 AM
I don't necessarily think that's true. Take Cerebral Assassin (from Type 1) for example: Portal is not a focus of the deck, simply another tool to utilize, and usually as a 1-of. There are situations where a Portal vastly outperforms a Titan (against a deck that can combo out or ride card advantage to victory a la Vial Goblins.) Ultimately, I have neither the means nor the expertise to test Portal as this is not a deck I play or have the cards for. Again, just something to throw out there.

CavernNinja
05-08-2005, 03:52 AM
If you paid enough attention to the primer to realize that Portal was mentioned you would also see my reasoning. It is hard to dump Portal into the yard a lot of the time because you only have 6 ways to do it and with only 1 portal you only have 4 ways to do it. If I was playing more discard effects, and more ways to cheat it into play i.e. a different deck, then Portal could be quite strong.

MattH
05-08-2005, 11:45 AM
If you really want to play Portal, try including one Wild Mongrel, so you have a Survival-able way to discard it. Mongrel also isn't bad on its own, given Squee/Anger/Genesis/artifact fat. Alternately, try Kris Mage.

midnightAce
05-08-2005, 05:36 PM
The problem with Portal is that it deviates too much from the deck's original game plan.

As a 1'of, discarding it, like MattH said is not a problem, but how do you draw it in the first place? Dumping it and getting it to play by turn 4, 5 is not attractive. I rather have some fat hasty beats to finish the guy off. Against most aggro/aggro control decks, they'll have enough damage on the board to post a threat if you don't reanimate fat. So while you are discarding Squee for Portal, they are discarding extra Plain from Tithe and smashing you with some equipmented creature.

To purely abuse the Portal, you'll be needing the standard stall of Tangle Wire, the awsome draw of TFK, a hefty 4 of on the Portals, and some nice FoW to back it up. Some sort of UR Welder variation would be optimal. That's just my first impression.

Zilla
06-09-2005, 08:26 PM
Moved by popular vote to Open. While the deck is perfectly viable and in fact very strong, it simply isn't seeing enough play to warrant its DTB status at the moment. Should it start placing consistently in T8's, it will return to the LMF. -Zilla

Roberto Clemente
07-06-2005, 09:27 AM
I've been playing this deck lately, but I've been having problems with one person at my local shop that runs a deck that's basically straight red burn with some creatures added.

From what I can tell, it's something like:

x Lightning Bolt
x Chain Lightning
x Seal of Fire
x Incinerate

x jackal Pup
x Mogg Fanatic
x Mogg Flunkies

xCursed Scroll

xfetch
x Mishra's Factory
1x Plateau(for disenchants etc in the board)
x Mountain

Is there anything that I can add to my deck or sideboard that would make this a favorable matchup? He generally has enough burn to just burn the shit out of me without the creatures and giving my creatures pro-red generally doesn't help. I've been trying out Sylvan Safekeeper lately, but he generally can pull out more burn than I can put out lands.

Is there anything that would help me, and if the safekeeper is my only real hope, what the hell do I take out for it?

jeremys
07-06-2005, 03:26 PM
Well, a decklist, or at least changes from the more or less standard build would be helpful for knowing what to suggest. I dont claim to be an expert by any means but I have played the deck and it usually does pretty well against decks like that. If memory serves I run 1 bottle gnomes in the main deck and more in the side, they've served me well against decks like that. You also have platinum angel which they pretty much have to deal with in order to win. My personal favorite play is to FTK a jackal pup, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

MattH
07-06-2005, 03:38 PM
Is there anything that I can add to my deck or sideboard that would make this a favorable matchup?
Add some lifegain. Bottle Gnomes, Spike Feeder, Ravenous Baloth. That deck can do about 22-24 damage before you kill him, so if you can gain just a little life you'll win. You should watch how badly a second turn Spike Feeder slows down red decks (I like Baloth the least because Feeder comes down faster and Gnomes can be Welded out, or other artifacts can become extra Gnomes).

Nightmare
07-06-2005, 03:46 PM
Bottle gnomes, Bottle gnomes, and more Bottle gnomes. If you know there will be a heavy amount of burn/sligh in your area, you have to tune your build toward that. That is the essence of meta-gaming. Find room for Gnomes main, and board as well if necessary. Also, put Boil in your board somewhere, I like it better than Chill. Most often, you'll be able to cast it with little loss to your own mana base (remember not to play out all your Taigas, otherwise, no AngerHaste). Other than that, just throw things in his face, and force him to be the control, killing your creatures, rather than slinging fire at your face. His ability to gain card advantage is virtually nonexistant, other than Cursed Scroll, so you should have inevitability once you get his hand down if you can get rid of Scroll. If that's your biggest worry, side in Null Rod or Pithing Needle.

As for what to take out, it depends on your build, so I'll guess you're playing the list on the last page. The first three things I see to SB out are Duplicant, Lyrist, and maybe a Trike, although the Trike is debateable.

jeremys
07-06-2005, 06:32 PM
I like the gnomes over feeder and baloth since they can be welded and whatnot and to a lesser extent they only require colorless mana for casting, not that that should really be an issue here. Boil is also a good call, I was looking at Tsunami way back when then realized boil is an instant, which seems to be a common comment when I play it "hmm, boil is an instant?" Then I smile and watch all their islands go away.

As for the scroll, you have orangutans for that, or the zealot if you prefer. Zealot is easier to recur since you have to sac him to use him but the oranguatans cost less. Not to mention they can swing if need be and can't be naturalized like pithing needle and null rod.

Roberto Clemente
07-07-2005, 01:01 AM
Okay, thanks guys. I added bottle gnomes and I'll see how that works out for me.

I didn't initially put a feeder or gnome in the maindeck because my area isn't really full of sligh/burn/whatever, it's just a really shitty combination of every known archetype. Most of the people I play with are shit, and I d on't really have a problem with them, I just have problems with one or two individual people.

Alvin6688
07-09-2005, 01:24 AM
Has anyone considered splashing a color other than blue? All blue provides maindeck are Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge. Is that really worth it?

I think a black splash may be worth trying. The one card that pops into mind first is Cabal Therapy, which helps both as a discard outlet that can partially replace TfK and/or Intuition, and as some much needed disruption against the deck's horrible matchup versus control. Cast it on yourself to get that Titan into your graveyard, and flashback it onto a BoP to rip StP out of Landstill's hand.

Two other anti-control cards, Chains of Mephistopheles and Undead Gladiator, can also act as discard outlets, though Chains isn't too reliable at that task. Black gives a lot more tools against aggro than Blue, not that WelderSurvival needs many of those. Firestorm should be enough.

Splashing blue just for TfK and Intuition seems to be a waste of a color.

bigredmeanie
07-09-2005, 01:59 AM
Splashing blue just for TfK and Intuition seems to be a waste of a color.

Wow, have you ever played this deck? TFK and Intuition make it work when you don't have a Survival. Plain and simple. I ran a version a long long time ago that ran Therapy, and Therapy is good on it's own, but it is not what this deck needs to be more competitive.

I don't have such a rough time against control, its about even preboard, and it only gets better for me post board, because landstill and the sort don't gain anything of incredible significance, but we gain Boil, which is the shit against control.

jeremys
07-09-2005, 02:13 PM
TFK and Intuition make it work when you don't have a Survival. Plain and simple.
quoted for truth

TFK and intuition help immensely when you can't find or keep a survival.

Bane of the Living
07-23-2005, 08:03 PM
Hey everyone, it's been awhile since I've been on this forum, I've been crashin the standard scene but it got boring as f*ck. It's nice to see this deck is still going ok but I think it's important to realize how under the radar this deck is right now. No one is siding yard hate, everyone is worried about the big dogs.

I see alittle talk about builds with black in them. I wouldn't really recommend it. I have tested with it but not for therapy. I splashed black in for 3 Reanimates and 1 BoneShedder. The shredder I like but he can be figured out later, birds, and prisms if you play them, can still cast him. Reanimate seemed like a goldmine with Intuition in mind as well as survival but it just didn't work out like the wet dreams did.

I do endorse shredder tho, someone help me out here and test his balls.
Any discussion on Saviors sotf targets?

etakspeelstae
08-28-2005, 06:53 PM
Small tournament report, using the list in the primer.

Round 1: Landstill

Takes about 30 mins for game one, but I win, this match takes time but is really easy because you eventually overcome them with pure CA off Genesis and Survival.

Round 2: BGw Rock splashing Vindicate

This is pretty easy match, his Duress finds 2 Survivals in my opening hand and a Mox, and a Mesmeric Fiend gets my Trike, but I Survival for Rofellos and cast Duplicant on his Spiritmonger and a Sharpshooter whipes his Fiend and 2 Birds, easy win. Game 2 I get turn 2 Welder, Titan, gg.

Round 3: FEB
Game 1 I loose takes 40 mins almost but he gets lucky topdecks late and beats with Hellion + Dreadnought Shapeshifter when I could win the next turn. Game 2 I have fast start, turn 1 Rofellos turn 2 Wood elves Survival Birds, he asks to draw for time, since I probably wouldn't have won anyway, so we draw.

2-0-1, cut to top 4 with me in 1st.

Top 4: FCG (wtf?)
Game one I loose to turn 1 Fanatic turn 2 Food Chain off Petal, sac Fantastic for Piledriver, sac for Matron, sac for Ringleader, sac for Warchief Piledriver Piledriver, rolf luckiest draw ever. Game 2 he just rolls over my muligan to 5 with a sub par start, but he eventually gets 2 Ringleaders, revealing 3 and 4 Goblins each time.

12 Packs, all in all a good tournament. In the open slot I put a Bottle Gnomes, btw.

Anusien
08-28-2005, 09:42 PM
If you're going with any color that isn't Blue, it should be white. White gives you Enlightened Tutor (that's about it, but it's enough) which is a much cheaper/better Survival tutor. You can also E-Tutor up artifact creatures to Survival away.

If you're having trouble against burn, I'd suggest trying out Dense Foliage. It plus Platz is practically a hard lock, and you can E-Tutor or Intuition + Eternal Witness + Eternal Witness/Genesis it out relatively easily. It will also allow you to get some fattie out and race, especially if in the meantime you start getting some gnomes.

bigredmeanie
08-29-2005, 11:34 AM
As for non-blue splash, I've played with both white and black, and blue is definately the best option.

As for Saviors Survival targets, I like Ghost lit raider. I believe that's the one. Channels for 3R deals 4 damage to target creature. Seems like good instant speed, uncounterable spot removal, that can be easily recured.

etakspeelstae
08-29-2005, 02:57 PM
As for non-blue splash, I've played with both white and black, and blue is definately the best option.

As for Saviors Survival targets, I like Ghost lit raider. I believe that's the one. Channels for 3R deals 4 damage to target creature. Seems like good instant speed, uncounterable spot removal, that can be easily recured.
I was also thinking of that, alot of times I don't want to break a Standstill and he picks off Mages and Manlands quite nicely, although they can Stifle (but it will break the 'Still).

KrzyMoose
08-31-2005, 10:03 PM
alot of times I don't want to break a Standstill

That's the wrong way to play. Unless you have the board in almost total control, you NEED to break the 'Still as soon as you can.


I splashed black in for 3 Reanimates and 1 BoneShedder

I like the idea(Reanimate is one of my favorite cards...JapReanimator, anyone?), but I don't think it's needed. I've never had a problem getting Welder(s) to resolve, and they either win the game that same turn, or the very next. Of course, in rare occasions I've had to recur them with Genesis, but that rarely happens. (Note: I've cut Witness completely).

The thing with this deck is that you really need to learn when the best time to play Welder is. Really, you have to think about what answers the opponent's playing, for which you need a decent understanding of the opponent's deck. And also, you have to think about what the opponent is doing/already done, ie if he's already played a StP or two, or cycled a Gempalm, etc.

Once you've nailed that, this deck is a piece of cake to play, and win with. Every tourney I've taken this to(five, in total), I've either won outright, or come in second. And, on top of that, I've gone 2-0 in almost every match I've played, against everything, except Solidarity.

Speaking of Solidarity, I think that's the deck we need to be thinking about. Our deck is fast as hell, but Solidarity is a turn(or two) faster. What I've been running, and it's helped quite a bit, is 4xPyrostatic Pillar in the 'Board. I'm still thinking about other options, and I think we need to be, as that deck is our biggest problem. (Of course, it's not the most widely played deck. And I have some hidden tricks for the Landstill matchup ^_^. I can post my decklist if you guys want).

Anything else you guys can think of for the Solidarity matchup?

*edit* If you hadn't already noticed, I'm damned dedicated to this deck, and I think(well, I know, but that may just be my bias speaking) that it's a very serious condender in the format

dsg123456789
08-31-2005, 10:53 PM
What is the landstill matchup like? I would think (and I have experienced this myself, being a Landstill player) that landstill's StP, counters, and sweepers would seriously hurt, if not flat out stop, your assaults.

etakspeelstae
09-01-2005, 12:48 AM
What is the landstill matchup like? I would think (and I have experienced this myself, being a Landstill player) that landstill's StP, counters, and sweepers would seriously hurt, if not flat out stop, your assaults.
The Lantstill match is very long and boring but your CA off of Genesis/Witness/Squee wins in the long run (the VERY long run).

@KrzyMoose
I would be very corious to see your decklist, could you please post it? Much appreciated in advance :D .

EDIT: I have Boil in the 'Board against Landstill and Solidarity. Against Solidarity, they have to Force your Welders and Survivals, and with only Wishes/FoW for answers, and Boil outright WINS THE GAME.

KrzyMoose
09-01-2005, 06:32 PM
Here's the list(roughly):

// Lands
5 Forest
4 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Tree of Tales
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Goblin Welder
4 Troll Ascetic
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Duplicant
1 Shield Sphere
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Spore Frog
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Quirion Ranger
// Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest
// Spells
2 Intuition
4 Thirst for Knowledge
// Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 3 Chill
SB: 4 Pyroclasm

I think I've actually posted this list(or something close to it) in this thread already, as well as explanations, so I'm not going to repeat myself (too lazy).

Personally, I think Trolls are amazing, and should be included in almost any deck running Green. They're a house against control - they draw counters and hate. Total, this deck has about 16 must-counter spells: Survival, Welder, Thirst, Troll. And, if none of those are countered, they draw hate. And the important stuff can be recurred(mainly Welder).

The SB isn't too great, and I don't really use it, unless I know I need it. I've rarely used Chill and Pyroclasm, as double Trikes > Goblins. Pillar is in for Solidarity, and that's helped a bunch. Sharpshooter and Naturalize are just good to have around.

Bane of the Living
09-02-2005, 01:03 AM
Moose I do like your Troll idea and I assume he beats face since your smary enough to go with moxes.
I'll try to fit at least 3 in my build to test with them, right now I'm having many problems with Goblins, not Solidarity. For Solidarity I play 3 pyrostatic pillars and an additional Angel in the board. An extra angel likens my odds of sneaking one into play with thirst/intuition. I'm more concerned about pithing needle at this point than anything.

Even though I love this deck like my own nuts, It proves to sometimes just not work, and can randomly lose games to needle and jitte.

ISOCHRONIC_SCEPTER
09-02-2005, 01:22 PM
Bane, I am currently testing welder survival and I like it alot. It is a solid deck and usually has answers out of most situations. Welding in a turn 3 or 4 sundering titan can really make your day. I was just wondering what is your sideboard, and how you go about defeating landstill. If landstill drops turn two mage on survival then drops another one naming thirst for knowledge... How do you win at that point. The deck doesn't run FTK. Also, have you considered running a burning wish board like R/G Advantage does? I really like this deck. Keep it up. :cool:

EDIT: Oops... my bad. Landstill doesn't run meddling mage, but I'm talking about those u/w decks and NCQ and other variants that pack 4 Meddling Mages main deck

Double-posts merged. Don't. - Zilla

etakspeelstae
09-02-2005, 02:24 PM
Oops... my bad. Landstill doesn't run meddling mage, but I'm talking about those u/w decks and NCQ and other variants that pack 4 Meddling Mages main deck
I suggest you go for Welding action, trying to get a Triskelion in the 'yard. I've put a second Trisk maindeck for testing, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

KrzyMoose
09-02-2005, 06:51 PM
I've put a second Trisk maindeck for testing, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Yeh...I've had 2 Trikes since the beginning. You need two. Plain and simple. They help against....EVERYTHING.

ISOCHRONIC_SCEPTER
09-03-2005, 12:17 PM
Hm... I just realized that this deck somewhat reminds me of ATS. Once survival hits, the possibilities are endless and it is hard to lose unless you make fatal misplays. But what if landstill or other decks keep survival off?? Its not like you are going to be planning on hardcasting sundering titan anytime soon. Your weld targets will be almost useless unless you can thirst. sotf and thirst are the only two spells control has to keep under control, and end of turn stp for the welder or wrath of god could really put a stop to your game. R/G advantage however, can still win without survival on the board. They still have solid drops to play without the dependance on survival. I don't know. I never was a fan of ats because of its heavy reliance on survival. All i had to do was counter survival against ATS and it was game from there. Any suggestions as to how to make the deck more independant or how to make a solid SB for teh deck?

Bane of the Living
09-06-2005, 05:13 AM
Well the best idea ive seen lately thanks to moose is main decking 3-4 trolls. I'm still trying to figure out how to squeeze them in though. Same goes for Trik, I found myself searching up a double trik dinner more often.

The reason you cannot fit in things like burning wish is almost simple common simplicity reasoning. This deck does what wish based decks wish they could, it's combo/control toolbox that switchs to aggro for the winning stretch. Burning wish is adding another toolbox compoent that would just bejanking up the deck in ways you can't afford to. It's much better to have cards that contribute to the focus of this deck.

My sideboard at the moment is..
Dosan, the Falling Leaf
Gigapede
3 Tormod's Crypt
Gilded Drake
Goblin Sharpshooter
Platinum Angel
3 Naturalize
3 Bottle Gnomes
1 Masticore

The angel is there as a second copy for combo matchups. I don't know how many of you test against combo with this deck but let me assure you she's often a scoop inducer.

I would post my decklist to avoid any further simple questions but the last 2 times I tried to it was deleted on me. :( So just ask away with whatever. Auf werdersein.

etakspeelstae
09-06-2005, 11:02 AM
I just had a random thoguht, why not add Diplomatic Immunity, as almost every deck doesn't answer it? I played Welder Reanimator in 1.x last season, and it won me so many games. Just a random SB thought, I mite test it some.

KrzyMoose
09-06-2005, 05:23 PM
I mean, it's not a horrible card. But I don't think it's needed. I don't think we have to waste spots(nor do we have spots to waste) to protect Welder, because most decks that run hate for Welder won't win the next turn, by which we should have a replacement(via Survival and/or Genesis).

bigredmeanie
09-06-2005, 05:50 PM
The angel is there as a second copy for combo matchups. I don't know how many of you test against combo with this deck but let me assure you she's often a scoop inducer.


By combo you mean what deck's exactly?

This should beat solidarity every time, at least thats why my playtesting shows. Just mulligan agressively and get Titan online as soon as possible. Using Quirion Ranger and Titan, you should be able to keep the to no more than 2 lands, they cannot keep up with the LD, and cannot hope to sucessfully win with only 2 lands in play.

If your talking about Belcher, I'll agree, this is a bad matchup, unless of course they kill themselves. I've always boarded 2 Null Rods, and the games I get one down I can usually win, but the games they kill you on turn 2, well not much you can do about that.

If your talking about Salvagers combo, it is a difficult matchup but not one we can't win. Board Null Rods.

if it's not one of those decks, I don't know what your talking about.



Dosan, the Falling Leaf
Gigapede
3 Tormod's Crypt
Gilded Drake
Goblin Sharpshooter
Platinum Angel
3 Naturalize
3 Bottle Gnomes
1 Masticore


This may be obvious to some, but why Gilded Drake? Why not just Duplicant their threat.
Why so many Naturalizes, you play against a lot of Humilities?
and 3 bottle Gnomes, thats obsesive.
Why no Boil? you're nuts for not playing Boil. The Landstill matchup is difficult w/o it.
I don't like Platinum Angel, it doesn't do anything, and if a deck doesn't have an answer to the Angel, they don't deserve to win.
I run a Masticore MD

I believe my last SB was something like this.
3 Boil
2 FTK 1 md
2 Naturalize
2 Null Rod
3 Tormod's crypt
1 Goblin sharpshooter
1 Arashi sky asunder? the guy that channels to kill fliers
1 Bottle Gnomes 1 md

etakspeelstae
09-06-2005, 06:07 PM
I mean, it's not a horrible card. But I don't think it's needed. I don't think we have to waste spots(nor do we have spots to waste) to protect Welder, because most decks that run hate for Welder won't win the next turn, by which we should have a replacement(via Survival and/or Genesis).
Umm... Actually I was talking about putting it on a Platinum Angel that they can't kill... It does suck on Welder to.

KrzyMoose
09-06-2005, 06:34 PM
why Gilded Drake? Why not just Duplicant their threat.

Quoted for truth.


I don't like Platinum Angel, it doesn't do anything, and if a deck doesn't have an answer to the Angel, they don't deserve to win.
I run a Masticore MD

Hm...That's a good point. I never really use Angel anyway...and I always end up 'boarding it out. I should try Masticore or something else in that slot.

Bane of the Living
09-16-2005, 12:37 AM
Well I've won alot of games with Platinum that I shouldn't have against Solidarity, Tendrils, and Belcher. She's amazing and there's absolutely no reason to not run at least one copy maindeck. Beating the hell out of one another's sideboard choices is idiotic. Everyones meta is different and everyone needs to be prepared for different matchups. There are alot of angel stompy, sligh, gobs, and random decks where I play. Graveyard hate is not very effective, I think it's pure bullshit that you have no sideboard cards against sligh decks. I almost need 4 gnomes sometimes.

The drake is another beautiful card to have against decks like the game. Duplicant isn't always enough. Thats pretty much all there is to say. Dup see's yard hate and you need welder/survival to get him. Drake will only need survival.

Another stupid thing your doing is running 2 copies of Rod and Naturalize instead of 3 to get with your Intuitions. Running one bottle gnomes means your planning to survival for it. So I'm asking myself what your doing playing this deck when your spending 4 mana to survival gnomes into play when you could spend 4 to get a hasty angel into play. Much harder to deal with, and a medium size threat as well.

On a more constructive note, I swappedout my 3 moxes for 3 tops. Trading speed for consistancy. I don't really have a reason to do this, it's pure curiousity. Tops will find you cards you need and are still a cheap artifact to weld. They can also be nutty with survival in play, a great way to find lands if your falling short and your one of the fools playing 8-10 dual lands and a few forests. Im sure this change will be short lived but I'll let you know how it goes.

bigredmeanie
09-16-2005, 11:46 AM
Well I've won alot of games with Platinum that I shouldn't have against Solidarity, Tendrils, and Belcher. She's amazing and there's absolutely no reason to not run at least one copy maindeck. Beating the hell out of one another's sideboard choices is idiotic. Everyones meta is different and everyone needs to be prepared for different matchups.

That's funny to me because you're doing what you just told us not to do.

Anyway I stopped running Platinum Angel a very long time ago.
Reason EVERY deck in my metagame can bounce or kill her outright, and even running 2 so that you can protect her with a Welder didn't do much. She's the least efficient artifact in the deck and doesn't immediately affect the game state in most cases.

But I guess it comes down to playstyle. In my opinion this deck uses Survival as an offensive tool to set up situations that my opponents have to answer instead of a defensive one where I answer their threats and win later. It's a very agressive deck that can easily create situations that most decks cannot get out of. ie. Turn 3 Titan.


pure bullshit that you have no sideboard cards against sligh decks. I almost need 4 gnomes sometimes.



1 Bottle Gnomes 1 md


Another stupid thing your doing is running 2 copies of Rod and Naturalize instead of 3 to get with your Intuitions

Still think that is funny.


Running one bottle gnomes means your planning to survival for it. So I'm asking myself what your doing playing this deck when your spending 4 mana to survival gnomes into play when you could spend 4 to get a hasty angel into play. Much harder to deal with, and a medium size threat as well.


Last time I checked burn didn't have a problem dealing 20 pts to you then 4 more to angel.


On a more constructive note, I swappedout my 3 moxes for 3 tops. Trading speed for consistancy

Good idea, let me know how that works. You will probably find that simply removing Mox will weaken your manabase. However the interaction with Top and Welder is nuts. Let me know how that goes.


8-10 dual lands and a few forests

Since when did this deck play 10 duals? I run 8 duals 4 fetch, 4 forests, and 3 Tree of tales.

etakspeelstae
09-16-2005, 12:33 PM
@bigredmeanie Just on a side note, I would advise you cut a Tropical Island for a 5th Fetch, as Red is really the color your after with Anger, at least that's how most of my games are won.

What are some of you recent decklists (everyone)?

Also, does anybody run Bottle Gnomes Main? I'm running 1 MD, and 2 SB, and it really is working out great against Burn and Aggro alike. While Trisk is usually the right call for Aggro, the Gnomes help you stabilze late, and also are just good when you don't have a Trisk or Survival.

bigredmeanie
09-16-2005, 02:48 PM
@etakspeelstae I usually do run with 5 fetches, but I am working on some changes that require more blue mana and could not afford to only have 3 sources of blue aside from BOP.

@everyone I'm working on a list trying to shore up some of the problems with Survival decks in general. Once it gets closer to GP Philly or if the changes pan out the way I think they will I'll post a list.

CavernNinja
09-17-2005, 09:58 AM
The Platinum Angel thing is a little iffy, I board it out against practically every deck. However it has won me a very large number of tournament games against solidarity. I drop a turn one Welder and somewhere in there sneak in an artifact. They go off enough to deck me, I weld in Angel. They cry.

bigredmeanie
09-19-2005, 11:39 AM
The Platinum Angel thing is a little iffy, I board it out against practically every deck. However it has won me a very large number of tournament games against solidarity. I drop a turn one Welder and somewhere in there sneak in an artifact. They go off enough to deck me, I weld in Angel. They cry.

So you are telling me that in 3-5 turns they can't find some way to bounce it during your upkeep?

Bane of the Living
09-20-2005, 05:23 AM
Solidarity has so much trouble with Angel. They need to kill it with seal or stp. If you have safekeeper your all set. Survival for safekeeper and angel IS game over. I know some versions play words of war or wind but you should titan their lands before that.

I don't mean to flame I just think this deck archtype does need harsh criticism. Feel free to question anything I say but I will always explain it. There really is no reason to run 2 Nullrod when your playing Intuitions. I don't think you understand sligh matchups much. Their idea of card advantage is fetchlands and 2 activations of a cursed scroll. They DO have a problem dealing you 20 and angel 4. This problem is bigger when you have 2 angels after side cause one of them is always kickin around.

Tops are ok.. I can't make decisions yet.

colsmack
09-20-2005, 07:46 AM
Solidarity has so much trouble with Angel. They need to kill it with seal or stp. If you have safekeeper your all set. Survival for safekeeper and angel IS game over. I know some versions play words of war or wind but you should titan their lands before that.
I think you are referring to Solitare, an enchantment based combo and everyone else is talking about high tide. No big deal, just for future reference.

Back on track, this deck seems really cool, anyone have a recent decklist?

CavernNinja
09-20-2005, 12:19 PM
4 Survival
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Welder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Triskelion
2 Sundering Titan
2 Viridian Zealot
1 Shield Sphere
3 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Rofellos
3 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
3 Chrome Mox
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills

How 'bout that?

A fair amount of change...really don't have any card to card replacements, just packed in more 2-3 of's to increase the consistency of the deck a bit. I dropped Intuition which could prove to be bad, but so far it's been good to me not having blue instants hanging around in my hand against gobbos. I dropped Spore Frog and Bottle Gnomes, those could go back in, but I really haven't missed them much, randomly dropping Sharpshooter's more often has been good to me.

EDIT: Screw Duplicant, the number of decks he's good against is in rapid decline.



Edited By CavernNinja on 1127230204

bigredmeanie
09-20-2005, 01:10 PM
No Quirion Ranger? Thats the only thing I don't like especially running 2 Titans. Other than that the build I'm working on has also cut Intuition. It's tutor power is obviously strong, but it's really slow. I've been looking at the new Thirst for Knowledge. Sorcery 2U Draw 3 discard 2 or a land. As a 1 of to act like the 5th TFK so far so good.

CN have you tried Masticore? I've liked having it. It can win games all by itself, especially if you're having trouble stabilizing. Plus can easily be hardcast to be welded out.

3 Sharpshooters seems a bit obsesive to me, but I guess it's really good against goblins, but so is 3 Trikes.

How do you like Viridial Zealot? Are there really any enchantements you don't like, or is it the delayed action, and being randomly good against Standstills?

Does the sb for your list contain the Spore Frog? I'm guessing yes, but I suppose it depends on where your metagame is headed.

@ Duplicant I like having Duplicant. It's not always good against everything, but being able to kill a Kird Ape in 1 activation and keeping the 4/4 Trike has been important to me. Also Duplicant LOVES eating morphed Angels. :)

Finn
09-20-2005, 02:06 PM
You know, the problem I have with Welder Survival (I play with white instead of blue) is that there are a lot of ways to screw the combo. I always run 2 shield spheres because if the 1st one gets plowed or naturalized (often in response to the weld activation), I would have to hope for a Tree of Tales if I did not have another (or wait for enough mana to hard cast the big guys). Yet the decks in this forum all use only one. With the variety of ways to stop or delay the combo, this one is pretty potent, so how is it that none of the folks playing the blue version seem to be having the same experience?

Also, Cavern Ninja, have you actually been playing the deck in tournaments? I have. I find that I consistently beat 80% of the field and eventually get beaten by Landstill. My board looks like this these days.

3 Pyroblast
3 Red Blast
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Naturalize
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Fire

Almost the entire sideboard is dedicated to keeping their hate out of my face. The lone Seal of Fire is there to be a tutorable removal card for Meddling Mage. I should note that in my white version, I do not run any anti-goblin cards because I more consistently get survival on the board on turn 2 than the blue one. That allows me to ruin them with Triskelion, Titan, etc. typically a turn or two before they get going.

Anyway, I am wondering how you folks are doing against control, Landstill in particular. If you are succeeding, what is the strategy that works?

Doube-posts merged. - Zilla

bigredmeanie
09-20-2005, 02:36 PM
If you are having a problem with Getting off a Welder activation, just play the cards in different order, or have 2 Welders on the board, or a Welder and a Quirion Ranger. It all works, and if you force your opponent to start the Sword stack you should come out ahead, instead of walking into a wasted activation.

What does your version look like Finn?

ps try Boil against Control. They pretty much loose against Boil.

etakspeelstae
09-20-2005, 02:47 PM
Genesis is really how I beat Landstill. I don't like testing it, the games almost go 30-40 mins of boring shit. It ends up with me forcing through Intuitions, Thirst for Knowledges, Surivivals, Witness, Genesis in the 'yard, random beaters, and just recurring Welders or Triskileons if I have the mana. Rofellos shines in this match-up, and a turn 1 Survival when they have no Force, on the play (to avoid Disenchanting right away) is the win (I know this is narrow but bear with me :;): ). I find Landstill to be a good match up post-board. I bring in Boils, and a lone Orcish Settlers, which really is the ultimate with Genesis against them. I have been trying to fit in extra Genesis in the Sideboard to 'Board against control.

@Finn: On a rather random note, your sideboard should have 4 REB and 2 Pyroblast, should you choose 6 Blasts, just because of MisD... Unless for some reason your afraid of Extraction or Meddling Mage :D .

KrzyMoose
09-20-2005, 03:02 PM
Seriously, this deck should have no problem against Landstill (at least, I don't. I've only ever lost to the deck once.). We have more threats they can deal with(I'm telling you guys, MD decent bait like Trolls, or as CN suggests Rootwallas). We can recur those threats for as long as we want, while they sit back and waste their resources. Going along with what Smmenen was saying, they don't put pressure on us. We put pressure on them, and pressure wins.

etakspeelstae
09-20-2005, 03:19 PM
Seriously, this deck should have no problem against Landstill. We have more threats they can deal with(I'm telling you guys, MD decent bait like Trolls, or as CN suggests Rootwallas). We can recur those threats for as long as we want, while they sit back and waste their resources. Going along with what Smmenen was saying, they don't put pressure on us. We put pressure on them, and pressure wins.
While that is very true, and I agree in every way, my only beef with Landstill EVER has been Wasteland. Sometimes it just can screw you over, and force you to protect a Quirion Ranger. Any suggestions?

Another point, one of my friends has been testing RG, with Wastelands and a Crucible lock in hte Sideboard. He also plays Mongrels and Rootwallas for good preasure, and sideboard's Sirocco and Blasts and puts great amounts of preasure on Solidarity. I think this could be the way to go. Here is his list, it mite be off by a few cards though.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Wild Mongrel
2 Anger
3 Basking Rootwalla
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sundering Titan
2 Triskileon
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emmisary
1 Pentivus
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Trasgo Nabob
1 Shield Sphere
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Phyrexian Collosus
1 Sex Monkeys
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Chrome Mox
3 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
1 Mountain
5 Forest

Sideboard
1 Basking Rootwalla
4 REB
4 Sirocco
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Pyroclasm

I'll ask him to either post or tell me more about the deck and the testing results.

Finn
09-20-2005, 03:45 PM
Bigredmeanie, I am not sure I understand your meaning, but let me just say that I am not concerned with losing the welder. On the contrary, I love having a welder plowed most of the time. It's a wasted spell IMO. I am concerned with having the Shield Sphere plowed. If your point is to have another welder out, that's all fine and good if I have it. With an extra Shield Shpere (an excellent opening 7 card to be holding vs. Goblins BTW) I don't have to worry about all that. Playing them in a different order does not seem to be the solution either since the welder could simply be picked off while the sphere is on the stack. I don't want to believe that everyone else waits a turn to have a welder AND an ranger. But that is what it seems like.

I like the Misdirection advice. I think that's a bit more common than Cranial Extraction. I was more concerned with Meddling Mage, but if they're calling that with the mage, I should do OK, since there are much more useful items in the deck for that. Thanks

And yeah, Boil. An instant that they MUST counter. I should try that, but over what?

OK, the most recent list (I would direct you to the discussion here on The Source, but it seems to have been removed for some reason):


4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
3 Tree of Tales
3 Forest

4 Goblin Welder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Kami of Ancient Law

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Genesis

2 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan


Pros:
1. Reliably faster than either ATS or Welder Survival in blue so that means...
2. Better matchup vs. aggro with STP and that faster clock which means...
3. Fewer spaces devoted to creature-based emergency creature removal after survival is out which means...
4. More space available for tools (these days its Eternal Witness)

Cons:
1. Complete reliance on Survival of the Fittest. I have tried a number of solutions including Lion's Eye Diamond, Wild Mongrel, and Masticore, but there just is nothing I can find that will give me a good fill-in for Survival in these colors. Since I now run four Eternal Witnesses, my last good hope is Gamble if the current build does not hold up. This reliance leads to...
2. Easy to hate. Between Pithing Needles, Tormod's Crypt, and Meddling Mage, I have a hard time beating opponents who have cheap, redundant hate out on me. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does,I have a lot of work on my hands. I am told that the blue version does not run into nearly as much trouble with the hate, but any of these cards would be just as effective naming the welder, which is, of course, common to both. I am only including this at all because if I do not others will point to it.

I should mention that over time, the two decks are looking more like each other all the time as you folks work out the kinks in your build and I do the same with my own, albeit independantly for the most part.

KrzyMoose
09-20-2005, 04:25 PM
No!!!!!!!! White doesn't belong in this deck. What does it help against? Double Triskes beats aggro, which this deck is already faster than. Nothing helps against Landstill, in fact, it looks like it weakens that matchup.

We need TFK. Period. It's like adding four more Survivals. And as soon as your opponent sees you're not running blue, he knows your not running TFK/Intuition. And that means he knows your completely reliant on Survival. Which is very, very bad. The strength of this deck is the fact that it has so many threats, and so many ways to recur them.

How is this faster than R/G/u? Perhaps you've added the Tutor, but gives the opponent a turn to figure out what he wants to do.

I don't feel cutting Blue for White gains us anything. Of course, if testing proves otherwise, which I don't think it will, then we can further discuss it.

But, honestly, I just don't see how White gains us anything.

Finn
09-20-2005, 04:54 PM
Mr. Moose, I am not asking you to change your deck. Bigredmeanie wanted to see the build so I posted it with some explanation. I was only poking around to see how this version was doing. I should mention that blue IS the changed version of the deck. I came up with the idea when Enlightened Tutor came off the banned list. What you see in this forum is the result of that a year later.

But, here. I will explain:

No!!!!!!!! White doesn't belong in this deck. What does it help against? Double Triskes beats aggro, which this deck is already faster than. Nothing helps against Landstill, in fact, it looks like it weakens that matchup.

Not against Landstill. Note my remarks. I have made that clear. What it does do is get to the most important card in the deck twice as often. That means survival on turn 2 almost every game. Add STP and a lot of expendable one-drops to the list, and lo and behold, you have a very positive matchup vs. Goblins.
Oh, and do yourself a favor and stop worrying about double trikes. When you can count on going off turn three or four, the opponent's threats just take too long to matter. You are typically up and running before the life total issue gets critical.


I don't feel cutting Blue for White gains us anything. Of course, if testing proves otherwise, which I don't think it will, then we can further discuss it.

This doesn't sound like much of an endorsement for testing, but that's OK. I have been testing the deck since the moment Enlightened Tutor went legal. Anyway, does anyone else have advice for the Landstill matchup?

etakspeelstae
09-20-2005, 06:03 PM
I think Boil > Xantid Swarm, since it doesn't really help vs Landstill or Soldarity IMHO.

So you current 'Board should be something along the lines of...

4 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Boil
3 Naturalize
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Fire

Hope this helps :D

bigredmeanie
09-20-2005, 06:15 PM
I don't want to believe that everyone else waits a turn to have a welder AND an ranger. But that is what it seems like.


If I know they are holding a Swords or are suspecting, than yes. Decks that run swords aren't fast enough to beat you this turn, just get 2 welders in your hand and the wall, then cast both Welders then the wall, and you get a Weld. p.s. Chrome Mox is also an excellent weld target, and the freeness is the main reason the deck plays them.

Finn thanks for posting your list, I was interested in where you were taking it. I agree that shield sphere is good in the goblins matchup, but in most of the others it is a HORRIBLE topdeck. We already have a decent matchup against Goblins. Prolly 60 percent.


We need TFK. Period. It's like adding four more Survivals.

Quoted for truth. I have won MANY games where I never saw a Survival. Creating dependency on Survival is the worst thing you can do for the deck. 1 reason why ATS sucks.



As for the Landstill matchup you can't get setup w/o your Survival so good luck, but use Genesis to create card advantage. FETCH LANDS ALWAYS GET BASICS. Learn to topdeck duals, and hold them until you need the color off them. They will Crucible lock you mid-late, and you can not afford to be crippled when that happens. Use Rofellos as much as possible, they only have 4 swords, expect for the game to last until they play 3, then win. Be as quick as possible, then go to game 2 and board in 3 Boils. Once you have Boils MD, wait till u have 2 in hand, cast 1 EOT then 1 main phase, hopefully 1 will resolve, and even if they didnt, now your Welder/Survival will. Also responding to a FoF with a Boil is mean, and good fun.

Anything else?

etakspeelstae
09-20-2005, 06:22 PM
I think we should take the focus off of the Landstill and Goblins match, and get to the Solidarity match. Anybody know how this match plays out, I havn't tested it yet. I think a combination of Sirocco/REB/Rootwalla to create a good clock would be good. Any thoughts?

bigredmeanie
09-20-2005, 06:48 PM
It's easy. Mulligan hands that don't have Survival in them. Then get Welder, Sundering Titan, and Qurion Ranger online asap. Make those cards do what they do, and attack for 7 in the mean time. Solidarity cannot keep up with you blowing up a land every turn. Of course you will only have the one you bounce, but that's ok. You win in 3 attacks. Game 2 board Boil. Cast on their turn 3 or sooner, hopefully being able to win. You do this with some combination of Birds and Moxen.

CavernNinja
09-20-2005, 07:58 PM
I love playing first turn Welder+Rootwalla, second turn Thirst to ditch Titan, that works out quite well against them generally and is a three turn clock, occasionally a two turn clock starting turn 2. I really haven't defined my board against Solidarity yet, I've thought about boarding in 2 Titans and Careful Study to REALLY push for the early Titan every game, I've thought about Sirroco, REB, Boil, they all seem good but I'm not sure what's best.

etakspeelstae
09-20-2005, 10:46 PM
I'm thinking Sirocco is the best hate out there. If you can get a Titan through, you basicly have won, because of the huge tempo swing it will create. Sirocco is icing on the savage cake.


I've thought about boarding in 2 Titans and Careful Study to REALLY push for the early Titan every game

Wouldn't you rather be playing Reanimator then? I think it could be viable, but I'm not sure, since protecting 1/1's FTW isn't always a great plan, and Goblins loves 1 creature costing you 6-8 life.


I love playing first turn Welder+Rootwalla, second turn Thirst to ditch Titan, that works out quite well against them generally and is a three turn clock

Doesn't everybody love their god draw? :D

EDIT: Misused "their" and "there" so savagely.

Finn
09-22-2005, 12:54 PM
As far as hate for Solidarity, I had been using 2 Gaea's Blessings and an Ichneumon Druid. I realized that the Druid was not that good since I am better off killing his land with a Sundering Titan if Survival is out. The Blessings were awesome though. Solidarity has fallen out of favor around here though.

And thanks for the Landstill options. Just the same, either I must be doing something wrong or the hate around here is better aganst this deck than elsewhere. Do you people see needles, meddling mages, and crypts at the same time like I do?

-Finn

bigredmeanie
09-22-2005, 01:21 PM
Do you people see needles, meddling mages, and crypts at the same time like I do?


In my meta not all at once, but it is not uncommon for me to see any 2 of them in a given match. In either case, you should be able to play around Crypt pretty well, as far as against Meddling Mage, it depends on when it comes down. If they get 1 pre-Survival than obviouly Crypt becomes more effictive, but if they get one post Survival, MM shouldn't do much of anything. Also Genesis is a trigered ability, so make sure you don't let your opponent Needle you out of your Genesis, in fact in that matchup I wouldn't even put it in my yard until I've got a fairly stable mana base.

etakspeelstae
09-22-2005, 01:32 PM
Do you people see needles, meddling mages, and crypts at the same time like I do?


In my meta not all at once, but it is not uncommon for me to see any 2 of them in a given match. In either case, you should be able to play around Crypt pretty well, as far as against Meddling Mage, it depends on when it comes down. If they get 1 pre-Survival than obviouly Crypt becomes more effictive, but if they get one post Survival, MM shouldn't do much of anything. Also Genesis is a trigered ability, so make sure you don't let your opponent Needle you out of your Genesis, in fact in that matchup I wouldn't even put it in my yard until I've got a fairly stable mana base.
Uh, I'm pretty sure Genesis's ability is triggered upon upkeep and activated once you pay the cost.


Do you people see needles, meddling mages, and crypts at the same time like I do?

...No... Don't run Survival if anybody runs shit like that...

Landstill around here is actually good, and most don't run Crypts or Needles, or even Mages...

MattH
09-22-2005, 02:19 PM
Genesis has no activated abilities. Its graveyard ability is a triggered ability with an optional mana payment, the same as Nether Void's.

Activated abilities are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS written with a colon. "Cost: Effect".

bigredmeanie
09-22-2005, 02:47 PM
That's what I thought, besides I don't know of any abilities that are both activated and trigered as Etak is saying. If there are some please inform me.

etakspeelstae
09-22-2005, 02:53 PM
That's what I thought, besides I don't know of any abilities that are both activated and trigered as Etak is saying. If there are some please inform me.
I heard it from a Judge and some of the better players at my shop so I don't know what to think, maybe I'll submit it somewhere as a question, or maybe we should just let everyone think it is Needle-able, even if it isn't :D

Finn
09-22-2005, 03:50 PM
I believe that abilities that used to trigger and have the option to activate have all been changed to just the trigger. This was a sixth edition rules change, if I am remembering correctly. Look at the versions of Ivory Cup for comparison. Although, I doubt my html is on.

Anyway, staying on subject, I very rarely search for Genesis. In fact, I would say that it is one of the least useful cards in the deck except when I am facing counterspells. If I am at the point of using Survival, the game should usually be over shortly thereafter. I can imagine a game in which my opponent has multiple bolts and a couple of Naturalizes in hand or something, but I have never had that happen. But, if I actually want Genesis, I have to top deck it.

CavernNinja
09-22-2005, 06:28 PM
I have faced Needle + Crypt before, never faced all three. The way to play around Crypt if you see A LOT of it is to avoid the gy, play Wurms and Wallas and make the card useless. Either that or board in extra incarnations. The way to beat Pithing Needle is with Naturalize/Sex Monkey, so if you really see a lot of arts you may want to board in an extra copy or two. As for Mage, Triskelion, FTK, Sharpshooter and just sorta overwhelming him have been good ways to keep Pikula from causing problems for me.

Bane of the Living
09-26-2005, 02:43 PM
I meant solitaire, I think I was drinking heavily when I wrote that post. Thank's for making me look like a dick though.

Ninja it's good to see a completely new view on the deck while staying in color. I'd like to build that up and try it. I'm not sure about rootwallas on paper tho, it would seem like a threat like troll is much better. My newest sideboard brings in 3 Trolls, 2 Jitte, 2 SoFI. It makes every creature in my deck into an asswupper when Jitte comes down against control.

If you see alot of graveyard hate, pithing needles and crypts ect. The aggro switch is pretty amazing too, especially if your playing with moxes, playing turn one jitte and two trolls. The switch makes such a nasty surprise. I'm currently playing with 3 Reanimates too. I know they're suicide against gobs but not if your using it to get back a dead welder, and it's amazing against control when they counter your troll and then you pay B to get him back into play. It's amazing! Think outside the box here.. Everyone knows what this deck can do now, its time to evolve it into something people wont see coming. This is my 1.5 deck of choice for over a year now, I have confidance in these decisions, Ninja I know you feel somewhat this way also when your playing 3 triks, shooters, and rootwallas. Suprise tactics are beautiful.

I would really appreciate someone helping to test mox vs top also. This is a powerful tool that this deck isnt running yet. It needs testing and I can't make alot of the decisions on it alone.

Bane of the Living
01-18-2006, 08:27 PM
OK I've deviced a new plan for welder survival, and it's to take away from the reliance of both cards. Welder is picking up alot of hate aimed at his cousin the lackey, not too mention we're now seeing yard hand much more bountiful thanks to thresh decks. This sucks for the deck. The only way I could try to fix this was to make the deck as fast as possible. Going straight to the throat. I've come to realize the power of turn 2 titan makes the rest of the deck plan obsolete.

Without further ado, the new list I'm working on.


Mana
4 Tree of Tales
4 City of Brass
1 Volcanic Island
4 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Chrome Mox

Tools
3 Aether Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Reanimate

Men
4 Goblin Welder
1 Nullstone Gargoyle
2 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskileon
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvian Safekeeper
1 Shield Sphere
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Naboob

Other
4 Careful Study
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition

SB
1 Genesis
3 Troll Aestetic
3 River Boa
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Flame Tongue Kavu
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gilded Drake

You'll notice a few changes, I upped the count of large fatties. I would actually like to squeeze in another titan but I've really liked the Gargoyle.

Another big change was to remove birds from the deck entirely. Since I made this change my first turn hasnt lost a bit. I now pack 3 copies of vial to help against the onslaught brought on by blue mages. Playing turn one vial putting out eot welder proves more powerful than meets the eye. Any future welders found off survival can be ripped into play at instant speed. I've also been sneaky enough to survival for a safekeeper and vial him to the rescue.

I'm running moxen as well as vials but this hasnt been too conflicting for me since one of them gets welded away, mox is too powerful in this all out version to ignore.

Reanimate and Careful Study are more new inclusions. Careful study helps dig for remaining combo peices while also dumping fat or anger into the yard. It eeks out over brainstorm for my version based mosty on the fact I play reanimates. Reanimate stays good as a 3 of, multiples arent that great and 3 is just enough for intuition's sake. Reanimate has allowed for some very busted turn one plays, the kind that want me running more copies of titan.

The sideboard has seen change as well. In my store in Worc MA I see tons of yard hate and alot of blue. Blue edged me to put vial into my deck and punish it and thats where I pool sb cards in to back it up.

River Boas and Trolls are nightmares for your blue foe. especially vialed out or moxed out. It adds more threats into the deck they arent ready to handle. When they bring in 4 Tormods crypts, your laughing as you swap in 3 boas, 3 trolls, and a couple swords.

@Genesis
moved to board, too slow md, especially with reanimates.
@gilded drake
Nice against bomber man, as well as fellow reanimators. An all around nice silver bullet.

I'll repost with results after the weekend.

Lego
01-18-2006, 08:56 PM
How many ways can the deck get a turn 2 Sundering Titan? It means you have to play Welder on Turn 1, or reanimate the Titan, in which case you can do that on Turn 1.

Vialing a Welder into play won't get him into play until turn 2, so you can't use him until turn 3.

So basically your oppening hand has to have a red land and a green land, plus Survival and Sundering Titan, right? But you only play 2 Sundering Titan, so I don't see this happening much...

Bane of the Living
01-18-2006, 09:17 PM
---Turn 1 Titan---
T1- Mox, Careful Study, land, Reanimate.

---Turn 2 Titan---
T1- land, careful study.
T2- land, reanimate.

T1- Mox, land, Survival.
T2- Land, pitch titan and survival into anger, survival into welder, Welder, weld.

T1- land, Mox, Survival
T2- land, survival for titan, pitch titan, Reanimate.

T1- land, Goblin Welder.
T2- land, Mox, Survival, pitch titan, weld.

T1- land, Welder.
T2- Careful Study, weld.

T1-land, Careful Study.
T2-Reanimate.

T1-land, Welder.
T2-land, Mox, Thrist for Knowledge, weld.

T1- land, Welder.
T2- land, Mox, Intuition, weld.

Thats one way to get turn 1 Titan and 8 ways to get a turn 2 Titan. I'm sure there are more but I'm not gonna sit here and try to come up with every instance. Most speed kills arent gonna happen with vial, but vial route gives you more outs against decks packing force and daze.

Even if you cant use a vialed out welder till turn 3 he still slams into play at eot uncountered. Alot of decks dont know wtf is going on with the lands in play and the vial, they tap out to play a threat of there own knowing its not goblins and it doesnt seem to be doing anything.

The benefit of having vial in play with survival is also HUGE. especially post board.

Lego
01-18-2006, 09:42 PM
Yeah, that's a lot more than I figured out. Still doesn't seem likely, but then again, I've never tested it.

Do you find that this is a good time to play the deck, with it being hurt so much by hate directed at the top two decks?

Bane of the Living
01-18-2006, 10:33 PM
I think this is a good deck to even w lackey and yard hate out there. Alot of fundemental lackey hate out there includes blocking, welder doesnt do what he does by swinging. Crap like bandage doesnt him from doing his job, wing shards and wrath dont matter. STP and burn are only so useful when you have survival to churn up a new welder. Yard hate wont always matter since you can outplay it with survival, hastey welders, and things like intuition/thirst to put fat right back in.

The deck has a combo element that most anti combo cant do much about, and is aggro enough to out aggro goblins. I've won many many games because I had a cheated out platinum angel and a sylvian safekeeper.

There are many games where this build of the deck will lead the battle with 2 fat threats by third turn. Revolving titans or Gargoyle protection sealing the deal. Let me tell you, boy is the gargoyle fun to see in action!

Lego
01-18-2006, 10:42 PM
I'm actually considering running your list, but when do you board that stuff in your board? It looks like a sort of RGSA Transformational board.

Bane of the Living
01-18-2006, 11:08 PM
Well the main goal of the deck always stays in because of how powerful it is, I do however dilute to combo to come up with the man plan.

Against Thresh - Most Thresh decks are packing Crypts for the mirror and those will hit you too, add some spice.
In - 3 Troll Aestetic, 3 River Boa, 3 Tormod's Crypt
Out - 1 Gargoyle, 1 Angel, 1 Trik, 4 TfK, 1 Mox, 1 Careful Study
If they're playing the red splash you also add SoFI

Against Gobs - Gobs usually dont have much to bring in against you, maybe REB's but they arent too much a problem. Just remember, reanimating fat might cost you the game here. Try and stick to reanimating the welder instead. Vial has proven to be big help since their attack on your mana base isnt so crippling. Boa can slow the beats since he regens but hes no helps against versions playing bolt. Trik is god here.
In - 3 River Boa
Out - 1 Gargoyle, 2 Sundering Titan

Against Combo
If its Solidarity, you really want a revolving titan. If you can keep them at 2-3 lands you might be ok. Against Belcher or Tendrils you want Angel ASAP. Sometimes just landing her may win the game, especially if they dont have a way to deal with her. Nullstone + angel is often game over for any combo deck, especially if you have a safekeeper. Sometimes I bring in crypts to keep thresh away from rituals and belcher away from opposing welders. Against game bring in Gilded Drake, Viridian Shaman. You do ok against combo basically since they dont run anything to F up your comboing.


This Sideboard changes ALL the time.

SB
1 Genesis
3 Troll Aestetic
3 River Boa
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Flame Tongue Kavu
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gilded Drake

Lego
01-18-2006, 11:16 PM
Thanks for the help. What's up with the Gilded Drake though, does a single Drake (albeit he can be Survivaled up) do enough? I suppose he grabs the Gamekeeper when they don't play him with a sac outlet, but you know that Game doesn't play Colossus anymore, right?

bigredmeanie
01-19-2006, 07:48 PM
It's funny, I've been working on this deck too, but I took in in a slightly different dirrection. I didn't want to run 4 colors, so I cut blue and added hand disruption in the form of Duress and Therapy. I haven't tested my version yet, but if you are able to protect a Survival from being countered you really shouldn't have any problems.

As far as the board is concerned, I would pack more FTK's against threshold. For 2 reasons. The 2-1 wins games, and troll can be needled. More and more decks are packing needle main and in the board, which we also catch flack from, but there is a new viridian shaman in town.

RG
creature
when ~this comes into play destroy target artifact.
2/1

It's reduced cost seems good, but maybe not at the expense of a toughness. Not sure.

I'm just worried about running 4 colors w/o birds, thats all.

Bane of the Living
01-20-2006, 12:13 AM
Wow that new guy is out of guildpact eh? Thats pretty sick.

@Lego_Army_Man
The versions I see around here still do, hell I would.
Drake is still a dependable card for me at times, very good against reanimater. He's first in line to be cut from the sb anyways.

The 4 color thing isnt as big a deal as it seems. Your much less reliant on green mana since you can combo out without it very easily. Most times I'll just fetch a Bayou if the reanimate is in my hand, or if Ive got an Intuition. And thats all the black splash even is really is the 3 reanimates.

Red isnt as needed with vial. The only red thing the deck casts anyways is the welder. This makes fetching Bayou over Taiga not a death warrant. I am considering adding fetches to the deck however.

Vimes
01-20-2006, 04:59 PM
Actually, he's 1R, and if you pay a green mana for the colorless requirement, he destroys an artifact. He's even better than shaman in some ways because you don't HAVE to destroy an artifact. Personally, I believe that this guy is better than hearth kami or viridian shaman, but of course I might be wrong.

parallax
01-20-2006, 05:08 PM
This might be a minor thing, but I like Land Grant in Green decks that run Chrome Mox. It's like a fetch land that can be imprinted. I don't know how much of a drawback revealing your hand is, though. Your deck seems like it could use the surprise factor.

Bane of the Living
01-23-2006, 08:46 PM
Land Grant might be an amazing addition to the deck, Ill need to test with it to really see tho.

Lego
01-24-2006, 09:36 PM
Okay, I just fished 20 games with the Reanimate version, and here's what I got:

2nd Turn Reanimated Titan: 2
3rd Turn not Hasted Titan: 3 (twice with Survival, once with just Welder)
3rd Turn hasted anything Welded in with Survival backup: 10
4th Turn not-hastey: 2
4th Turn Hasted with Survival: 2
5th Turn Hasted with Survival: 1

Now one of those Turn 2 Reanimated Titans I would probably not have done, and would have dropped Survival, welding in a hastey Titan the following turn, and all but 1 of the turn 3 Titans could have been any creature I wanted. Only twice did I Reanimate a Titan on 2nd turn, and one of those times I had the potential to just weld him in with Haste on the following turn, putting me in much better position.

I propose we remove the Reanimates and Careful Studies, and instead try for a fundamental Turn 3, which gives the deck a much better late game. Setting up recurring Survival and a hastey Titan on Turn 3 is, in my opinion, a much better plan, and means that after that first Titan, we will be welding him in and out, or backing him up with a Nullstone Gargoyle or Platinum Angel.

My proposes are as follows:
-3 Reanimate
-4 Careful Study

+1 Aether Vial
+ 4 Birds of Paradise

A major overall of the mana base, possibly removing some now that we have Birds of Paradise, and adding some toolbox creatures like Genesis, Sharpshooter, Spore Frog, Wood Elves, Eternal Witness, or Uktabi Orangutan/Viridian Zealot.

This means that the deck can no longer get a 2nd turn Titan (okay, I think it still can 1-in-1000, but that's not the point) but it would give it a much better ability to hit 3rd turn Hasted Titan, and give it better long game with some toolbox creatures. I don't know if this is the way to go, but the Careful Study/Reanimate plan didn't seem to add enough for me, and I always wanted to go the Survival route anyway.

Bane of the Living
01-25-2006, 12:16 AM
Thank you for helping me test consistancy.

Thats about what I'm getting for numbers as well. Now that we know how fast the deck can do this maybe instead of changing it we should test it against a field of decks. How powerful is turbo titan? How powerful is being conservative? How much StP effects these versions may be the biggest question. My old build was pretty much the changes you suggest, except with vial being added. Maybe a total revision wasnt needed and vial will be enough an improvement. Still, I cant leave a project unfinished and wonder how powerful turbo titan is.

The reason I'm artificing this deck :) is alot of new people are about to start playing the format now, and thanks to Rav block people have easy access to good ol dualies. Titan rears his ugly head.

And you have to wonder, how powerful will Reanimating an opponents guy be in the coming age of Legacy?

ReAnimated
07-02-2007, 09:36 PM
So i was pondering the Community board and found a thread on Goblin Welder

He is a excelent card and i tought.......how do i break this............SURVIVAL

Well not break but provide a good engine for welder to abuse anyone have any ideas for a new list , here is what i have ATM.

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [B] Taiga
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [MR] Tree of Tales
1 [MR] Great Furnace
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [DS] Sundering Titan
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Anger
1 [US] Phyrexian Colossus
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [AL] Shield Sphere
1 [MR] Bosh, Iron Golem
1 [AQ] Triskelion
1 [UD] Masticore
1 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MR] Platinum Angel

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TE] Intuition



This was jus from a day of pondering , your guys's toughts and opinions?
:tongue:

Finn
07-03-2007, 03:57 PM
You were right - it is really good synergy.
Advice: take advantage of the work put in by folks who spent more than a day pondering :)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=42561

And be sure t let us know how it goes.

Tacosnape
07-03-2007, 06:10 PM
Cut Phyrexian Colossus for Arcbound Overseer. Welding an Overseer into a Triskelion is one of the most insane things ever.

Pale Moon FTW
07-03-2007, 07:08 PM
You might also want a second Titan in there 'cause weldering between two titans is just nuts.

ReAnimated
07-03-2007, 08:34 PM
Alright ill try the two titans


New Question: What colors do you guys see optimal in Welder survival R/G for sure but what are the splashes i like the coutner protection from blue but it just doesnt cut it some times. I like bleack due to the other creatures u have I.E Gloom Drifter, Bone Shredder , etc. and E. Plauge for the side. White also gives some unique cards like E. Tutors and possibly Worship.

More toughts =)?

Pale Moon FTW
07-04-2007, 02:49 PM
As for colors I think GRu is the best mix. Green and red are obvious, blue is because of Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition which both take huge advantage of welder.

Sanguine Voyeur
07-06-2007, 01:32 PM
Cut Phyrexian Colossus for Arcbound Overseer. Welding an Overseer into a Triskelion is one of the most insane things ever.

Agreed

Anger into Overseer into Triskelion into Welder results in a 10/10 haste that can deal nine damage at a whim.

Finn
07-06-2007, 01:52 PM
This is the same conversation repeating itself every 18 months or so. Just read some of this before you guys go testing things that have already been tested.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=42561

Bane of the Living
07-06-2007, 07:08 PM
I dont think this deck needs white. Splashing a fourth color just for Enlightened Tutor seems absurd to me. I used to play the deck as G/r/u and I never had a problem getting SotF. Losing a draw phase just sucks too much for my liking.

Heres the list Id play today.

// Lands 21
4 City of Brass
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tree of Tales

// Creatures 18
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Sundering Titan
4 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Tarmagoyf
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Shield Sphere
1 Sylvian Safekeeper
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

// Spells 21
3 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chrome Mox

Thirst is great in the deck when you have Chome Mox and Birds to play it turn 2. Vial is outstanding in the deck when all you truely need to resolve is welders against a control deck. It gets him into play and provides the artifact to weld in a pinch.

I think Chrome Mox + BoP + Vial is enough accel to run only 21 lands and lets you have powerfull plays early on.

Platium Angel and Safekeeper is probably the best combo in the deck. Not many decks short of mono white control or landstill can take this down. Safekeeper is key for keeping not only huge artifacts alive but welder himself.

I found Rofellos, Squee, and Genesis all alittle to 'norm' survival for this deck. We dont need the card advantage squee provides since we get it from welding. Rofellos requires forests which are bad for your Titan tactics. Genesis is just too slow.

Masticore is cute but fits the win more category. Colossus isnt needed since you can seal the game away with other artifact creatures much better.

I found the card I need mirrored the most is welder. When I last left of on the deck I was splashing black (a fourth color I realize) for Reanimate. Check some past posts for an idea of how it changed the deck.

ReAnimated
07-08-2007, 12:11 AM
Hmm i think Squee is needed not just for the card advantage but, being assured that you have a creature to activate survival with is a good thing.

I really liek black in any survival deck due to BoB and/or the Utility cratures black brings in but, I'm haveing a hard time deciding how to change it around here my list ATM

// Lands
1 [MR] Tree of Tales
1 [IA] Forest (2)
1 [MI] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Taiga
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [A] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
1 [JU] Anger
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [4E] Triskelion
1 [AL] Shield Sphere
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MR] Duplicant
2 [TSP] Looter il-Kor

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium


I got this list from MTGSalvation and I've liked it so far but i think it can use soem tuning up. Here are soem explainations on some of the cards.

E.Tutor - This guy gets me what i need and with these i virtually have 7 survivals and can get my Artifacts // Confiment when i need.

Looter IL-Kor - When survival jus doesn't get online puts creatures in teh yard for you to weld in and out

E.E - Just a utility for those pesy hordes of 1/1's and other random stuff

Tarmogoyf - When you cant get a looter OR survival online just go to beat down mode with this undercosted fattie

Seal of Primordium - I don't know is this is nesscessary but it's in there.....

Finn
07-09-2007, 03:25 PM
Seal of Primordium = Disenchant that
1. Is Green and thus works well with Chrome Mox
2. Can be fetched with Enlightened Tutor

Everyone likes Black in their Welder Survival decks. Problem is, we all like Blue and White as well. I am of the opinion that 4 colors is ultimately not worth it (to say nothing of 5). This deck has precious little room to handle resiliency to even moderate land hate. Color problems are bound to haunt you if you try to get too fancy. So I will be sticking with White as my third since it has served me well.

But there is no arguing results. Speaking of which, the fellow who piloted that deck you have there has his own thread here:http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=82124

Lego
07-09-2007, 04:55 PM
Hmm i think Squee is needed not just for the card advantage but, being assured that you have a creature to activate survival with is a good thing.

He's not needed for card advantage, but rather to repeatedly activate Survival? How exactly do you define card advantage?

finley
07-09-2007, 05:53 PM
He's not needed for card advantage, but rather to repeatedly activate Survival? How exactly do you define card advantage?

He said that Squee did generate card advantage...

HdH_Cthulhu
07-09-2007, 06:22 PM
Peaople play more Eternal Witness! She is damn good! I think 2 or 3 are the right number!
Destroying survival? Respond searching for wittnes!
Second needle? Witness on your Tin Street Hooligan...

Also Erernal Witness helps you when things go wrong...

ReAnimated
07-10-2007, 03:09 AM
He's not needed for card advantage, but rather to repeatedly activate Survival? How exactly do you define card advantage?

What i meant what his main purpose is not for card advatage.

Mordenkain
11-25-2007, 12:36 PM
Necro time!

Anyways, a pilot in my local meta have this as his pet deck and have always been doing well with it. And so he did as well at the danish legacy championship, as seen here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180195&postcount=508).

He placed in top 8 with the following decklist:

1 Shield Sphere
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion
1 Nullstone Gargoyle
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Goblin Welder
3 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Chrome Mox
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Arcane Laboratory
2 Maze of Ith
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt

So, anyone else think it's time for a revival?

bigredmeanie
11-26-2007, 06:24 PM
That list will have problems with being distupted. Aggro decks that can stop you once will probably win, control decks only have to counter a few key cards if they have a clock, ie gro, and you aren't quite fast enough to beat combo. Well, maybe with Nullstone and Angel main.

In other words you don't do enough w/o survival to be a legitimate threat, or for that matter to stop incoming threats.

TiB
01-02-2008, 07:29 PM
hey everyone,

I've been tinkering with this deck for a while now, and I wonder why everyone deems U so necessary.
This is the list I took to the 5th place at a tournament with 32 ppl or something. (wouldve gotten higher if in the heat of battle I had remembered to return my squee in the 3rd game of the quarterfinals)

GWR Welder Survival

Mana(23):
4# Taiga
4# Savannah
4# Wooded Foothills
3# Windswept Heath
2# Tree of Tales
1# Forest
1# Plains
1# Mountain
3# Chrome Mox

Tech critters(20):
2# Shield Sphere
4# Goblin Welder
2# Quirion Ranger
1# Basking Rootwalla
1# Sakura-Tribe Elder
1# Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2# Gaddock Teeg
2# Harmonic Sliver
2# Eternal Witness
1# Squee, Goblin Nabob
1# Anger
1# Genesis

Beef(5):
1# Duplicant
1# Triskelion
1# Platinum Angel
1# Sundering Titan
1# Nullstone Gargoyle

Other Spells(12):
4# Enlightened Tutor
4# Swords to Plowshares
4# Survival of the Fittest

SIDEBOARD
2# Gaddock Teeg
4# Tormod's Crypt
1# Seal of Cleansing
1# Seal of Primordium
2# Sacred Ground
2# Rule of Law
3# Engineered Explosives

Sideboard still needs a little tinkering, and Rofellos hasn't done anything for me in a while but it works really smoothly like this and with blue out of the way there's now room for StP and Gaddock Teeg. Boy do I love that gnome!

Finn
01-02-2008, 10:28 PM
That is very close to the way I build the deck. Teeg is interesting because one of the classic problems has always been a bad matchup against faster combo. Congratulations on your placement, and don't sweat the Squee issue. If I had a Euro for every time I forgot to do some critical part of the complicated sequence of actions that deck requires, I would be rich.

georgjorge
01-03-2008, 06:08 AM
I still think there are too many versions of this deck running lots of singletons who are sub-par without Survival, some of them not even running Tutors to ensure they DO get Survival. Finn said it in some other thread a long time ago, and I agree with this:

The best way to build a Survival deck is to minimize the number of cards dependent on Survival. That means a minimum of expensive artifact creatures, a minimum of utility creatures, and for me even a minimum of Welders (2). I'm currently down to six slots:

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Titan
1 Trisk
2 Welder

and filling up with Confidants, Goyfs, and Magi of the Moon, which can win the game on their own.

Having said this, if you really WANT to depend on Survival, I think the best way is to use cards that mimick the effect. Buried Alive (for a broken artifact if you got Welder, and Genesis + Welder in addition if you don't) is decent, if slow (in an already not so fast deck). The list some posts above, with Intuition and Thirst, seems ok, but I think it's too dependent on luck, as both of those cards do not assure that you will get the appropriate fattie - you'd have to run 2 or more of each artifact to assure this, clogging up space. And Welding in a Trisk against Landstill, or a Titan against Goblins, or a Duplicant against Belcher, is not such a great experience.

TiB
01-03-2008, 07:07 AM
I myself don't think you should go for a half/half solution, if you go survival you'll want to go full out survival, playing it turn 1 or 2 and going into business turn 3 at most.

Your deck as you describe it seems to have 2 different tactics which now both are diluted. If you happen to go survival there are a lot less answers at hand often leaving you without a reply. And if you dont get survival and go beatdown there are at least 6 cards you don't want to draw, noone wants to draw a Squee when you need a Goyf.

As you describe it it looks like you mean Red Green Survival Advantage with a pinch of welder thrown in, and even that deck plays a lot of one-offs

Finn
01-03-2008, 02:05 PM
If Georgjorge and I are on the same wavelength, I believe I can answer for this.

Survival decks that do not rely on a healthy disruption package have to make up for that with as many pertinent threats has possible. This guy has built up quite a bit of experience with the deck, so when he says he is down to 6 cards for the Welder package, I am all ears. BTW, wow. That is slim. The fact is that I end up with something similar after my sb anyway, so I am seriously considering taking that for a spin.

I just looked at Mordenkain's list w/blue, for example, and I found about 23 slots for the same stuff. That is a completely different deck in practical function. I would bet you that Georgjorge's deck get Survival on the stack on turn 2 in 65% of his games. If it is active on his turn 3 untap, the opponent can expect to see the same turns 3 and 4 every game. He will win these games. And I warrant that in the other 35% he pounds face until he does, if he ever needs to. I would bet you that Mordenkain's deck does a lot of toe-tapping on turns 3 and 4 unless he saw Survival in his opening 7 or topdecked it on turns 1-3. That's the Enlightened Tutor effect. It puts you in command before the opponent's gameplan gets going.

Georgjorge, I bet your Thresh matchup is a lot better than most versions, but I am concerned about the fight against Belcher (the worst matchup) and TES, Solidarity, etc. All the fast storm stuff.

TiB
01-03-2008, 05:48 PM
that 6 card welder list isn't complete though, there's still at least 1 zero-costed critter needed to get anything online.
And I think the welding-in package is not optimal either. I almost never go for a sundering titan first, unless theres a particularly sweet array of duals across the board that would be completely wiped out. In most cases I want to make sure I get a Nullstone Gargoyle first, followed by a Platinum Angel.

If you really want to cut the list down to 2 targets, i'd say
1. Nullstone Gargoyle
2. Sundering Titan

Furthermore, I'm not sure about only 2 welders, they really do have an enormous bullseye on their foreheads. I could see them going down to 3 fairly easy though.

And yes ofcourse I could see Tarmogoyfs in this deck, I'd probably even make some space for them if I owned them.
The ***** match of the original Welder isn't all that bad; duplicant on goyf stalls them a lot, EE works well, Nullstone Gargoyle hurts and they often just scoop to a Titan. As for the combo match up, it's hard but god bless the white splash; Gaddock Teeg and sideboarded Rule of Law (a bit slow but does the trick) and Orim's Chants.

CleverPetriDish
01-03-2008, 10:07 PM
Aren't you already winning if you get stuff like Duplicant and Gargoyle on the field? Those examples don't seem particularly useful.

...just sayin'

TiB
01-07-2008, 03:54 PM
Yesterday I played the build I posted some time earlier on a fairly big tournament where very often I wished I could survival into an StP. And I also found I would never survival for a basking rootwalla because I had better things to do. So in the slot of the rootwalla I would want to put some creature removal on a body. unfortunately I play GRW so no Shriekmaw or Ovinomancer (which is the styliest form of removing a creature in magic) :(
currently I have three candidates, but I'm open for suggestions:
- Flametongue Kavu
pro: worked great in RGSA, gets rid of most scary utility thingies
contra: doesnt take care of scary fatties like Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts.

- Intrepid Hero
pro: pwns Tombstalkers and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts
contra: useless against small and medium creatures, like Meddling Mages

- Diaochan, Artful Beauty
pro: frags everything! and sometimes you may even get to use her twice
contra: you lose something, which can be annoying.

At the moment I really tend to go for Diaochan, because it handles everything and the creature getting killed on your side will usually be Diaochan herself and it's fairly easy to make sure your precious important creatures dont get killed

etrigan
01-07-2008, 04:28 PM
Duplicant.

Kills just about everything. And since it doesn't copy color, it can be welded in or out as needed.

TiB
01-07-2008, 08:14 PM
if you looked at my list you'll see that I already play duplicant, and it kicks ass. But I'm looking for some survivable destruction that doesn't require an active welder and a weldable artifact for those times that I really need to get rid of something, like the aforementioned dreadnought or tombstalker pounding on my head.

JDunkin00
01-09-2008, 06:47 PM
if you looked at my list you'll see that I already play duplicant, and it kicks ass. But I'm looking for some survivable destruction that doesn't require an active welder and a weldable artifact for those times that I really need to get rid of something, like the aforementioned dreadnought or tombstalker pounding on my head.

If you have active survival big game hunter rocks. Although some welder builds dont run him I likehim alot esp with cutting the welder package to 6-8.

georgjorge
01-10-2008, 08:48 AM
Thanks Finn, you summed it up very nicely. As for the combo matchup, it's not the best, but winnable. I play

7 discard main (Therapy/Seize/Duress), with 2 more in the side.
2 Explosives main, 1 in the side (for the tokens)
2 Hooligans, 1 Ingot Chewer in the side (for Belcher)
1 Platinum in the side, though that really doesn't count, as it will almost always be too slow. Gaddock would be better since he can always come down turn three at least...


that 6 card welder list isn't complete though, there's still at least 1 zero-costed critter needed to get anything online.

Sorry, forgot this one...so make it seven slots with the Sphere.

JDunkin00
01-10-2008, 07:56 PM
Thanks Finn, you summed it up very nicely. As for the combo matchup, it's not the best, but winnable. I play

7 discard main (Therapy/Seize/Duress), with 2 more in the side.
2 Explosives main, 1 in the side (for the tokens)
2 Hooligans, 1 Ingot Chewer in the side (for Belcher)
1 Platinum in the side, though that really doesn't count, as it will almost always be too slow. Gaddock would be better since he can always come down turn three at least...



Sorry, forgot this one...so make it seven slots with the Sphere.

True Plat is slow on her own but in conjuction with the others it can seal the deal. The other possibility lies in Chalice or Crypt or P.Needle which also becomes welder food.

Inspector Detector
06-05-2008, 11:27 PM
I've been trying to play my own version of this deck (synthesized between Wright's deck and the ideas I've read in this thread, but I can't quite get the feel for the deck. Can anyone give me any pointers on playing the deck? For reference, here's the list I'm playing:


LAND:

1 Savannah
1 Badlands
2 Tree of Tales
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

CREATURES:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Shield Sphere
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Triskelavus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Harmonic Sliver

OTHER SPELLS:
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond

SIDEBOARD:
3 Mystic Snake
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Plaxmanta
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cabal Therapy

Pelikanudo
06-17-2008, 06:57 AM
Hello I'm more a combo-control player than a agro player but I ´ve always wanted to play the survival -welder archetype it looks so power full...

I´ve seen several lists of theese archetypes:
1) the one with dreadnouts
2) the one with sprites and balance
3) THIS one

I'd like to make a personal version of the welder - survival archetype:
I´ll post my list and ideas about it in order to get suggestions.
NOTE : All that follows '//' are comments


4 survival
4 welder

//now the toolbox for the welder-survival engine

1 nullstone gargoyle
1 platinum angel
1 triskelion
1 sundering titan
1 duplicant
1 shield sphere

// I think theese kind of creatures-artifact are the main threats for the meta

//playing welder we DO need some kind of artifact in play in order to be
//sacrified. I've been thinking about puttin in the vial engine which makes the
//deck pass through tons of counters. well this card is good but I noticed we
//ve only really 4 creatures to put in play via Aether vial., so i doesnt look
//quite optimal therefore senseis divining top is the other way. It costs 1//mana, its not useless in the entire game and helps you to find the
//pieces.Furthermore I've found some archetypes which carry some senseis
// Well, If you play senseis you can play balance because playing 4 moxen
//you really want to have whether survival or balance in hand, and now we
//do have something vs control match ups. Of course if you play blue and
//balance a must card is brainstorm.

4 brainstorm
4 counter balance
4 senseis divinin top

// draw engine has been set to 4 thirst for knowledge and intuition therefore:

4 thirst for knowledge
3 intuition

// more creatures toolbox:
1 eternal witness // theese card number should be 3
1 viridian shaman AND 1 viridian zealot OR ingot chewer OR teen street holl
1 quirion ranger
1 rofellos
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 anger
4 birds of paradise
1 flametongue kavu
1 genesis
1 goblin nabob

// we have at least 44 slots as main cards that must be reduced to 38 so we'
//ve to take out 6 slots
// the mana generator will be 18 lands plus 4 moxen

// supossing we want to play as well the balance-senseis engine we need
//now more blue sources, therefore cards like rofellos or quirion ranger or
//birds can be avoided we do not really need so much mana to win once we
//cast a survival. the kavu option is a meta call, the safe keeper is the plati -//combo way. evenfurther playin 8 cantrips of 1 cost(senseis and
//brainstorm ) we ensure we won't have lack of mana.
//therefore the deck will be:

1 nullstone gargoyle
1 platinum angel
1 triskelion
1 sundering titan
1 duplicant
1 shield sphere

4 brainstorm
4 counter balance
4 senseis divinin top

4 thirst for knowledge
3 intuition

1 sylvan safe keeper
1 anger
3 eternal witness
1 ingot chewer
1 genesis
1 goblin nabob
1 viridian zealot



4 cabal therapy // I find this card as THE card vs control match ups EDIT: Inoticed we
//dont have many ceatures to sacrifice but intuition to 3 therapys... maybe it should be
//replaced by 4 thout seize, still thinking on this slot..?
4 mox diamond // I prefer this kind of mox because it gives you mana of any
//source we only need 2 or 3 mana as maximus and as I said we play 8 cost 1//cantrips. Please help with the mana baseˇˇ

18 lands:
4 polluted
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 steam vents
3 undergroun sea
1 seat of the synod
Well please any suggestion from any experienced welder survival player?

Nihil Credo
06-17-2008, 08:14 AM
Well please any suggestion from any experienced welder survival player?
Well, for one, you may want to actually include Goblin Welder and Survival of the Fittest in your final list...

Pelikanudo
06-17-2008, 08:23 AM
Well, for one, you may want to actually include Goblin Welder and Survival of the Fittest in your final list...

yes I do , and as well like i said playin welder you need->senseis and playing senseis-> you can play balance.
Suggestions about the list posted above?

metalman2785
06-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Hi, I am playing this deck with painter/servant as an alternate win condition, it has been working good so far. I would like to try and fit nullstone gargoyle into my list somewhere, maybe replace an intuition or Gaddok?

Engine (15):
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Goblin Welder
4x Intuition
3x Enlightened Tutor

Combo (2):
1x Painter Servant
1x Grindstone

Mana Acceleration (11):
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Aether Vial
3x Chrome Mox

Junk (14):
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Triskelion
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Eternal Witness
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Life From the Loam
1x Gaddok Teeg
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Shield Sphere
1x Trinket Mage
1x Duplicant
1x Squee

Land (18):
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Plateau
1x Academy Ruins

Thomas1991
06-28-2008, 10:02 PM
I still play the UGR version.

Here is my latest list.



creatures
4#birds of paradise
4#tarmogoyf
4#dark confidant
1#squee, goblin nabob
1#quirion ranger
1#anger
1#genesis
3#goblin welder
2#eternal witness
1#shriekmaw
1#platinum angel
1#sundering titan
1#triskelion
2#shield sphere

spells
4#sensei's divining top
4#survival of the fittest
2#cabal therapy
3#thoughtseize

Lands
4#windswept heath
4#wooded foothills
3#bayou
4#taiga
3#tree of tales
2#forest

/sideboard
2#magus of the moon
1#sundering titan
1#ingot chewer
1#yixlid jailer
1#viridian zealot
3#tormod's crypt
3#krosan grip
1#withered wretch
1#shriekmaw
1#cabal therapy

Sensei's divining top: It's an artifact for the welder, great with confidant and it search for survival.
Dark confidant: i tested those and i think there great. first i had and extra therapy, rofellos, shriekmaw and a zealot but i dind'nt like to draw so tolbox card that you hardly use.
No refellos: because the only matchup they where great where control. dark confidant is great vs control and many other decks.
therapy/seize: disruption do i need to say more. you can use them to discard a large artifact creature (on random moments) and then weld them in.

the rest of the deck needs no explanation i think.

Finn
06-30-2008, 05:51 PM
Thomas, I think you meant GBR, not UGR. But that aside, you don't have any search or tutor for Survival. Well, you have Divining Top/fetchland, but considering the level of necessity the engine has in this deck, I think you should consider some sort of tutor effect.

Diabolic Intent might not be bad for your version. But the lack of tutor has always been the bane of GBR.

superman
07-01-2008, 06:46 PM
The side board Shreikmaw should be Big Game Hunter. It gives you more versitility. You can kill Tombstalker. Plus the madness mechanic with Survival gives you card advantage by getting another creature at the same price you would evoke the maw. Not to mention instant speed off of madness.

[edit] I hear it is good against Dreadnought as well.

HdH_Cthulhu
07-01-2008, 07:09 PM
Dont forget you could tap sensei to draw a card and then weld sensei out!

Finn
07-02-2008, 10:19 AM
Dont forget you could tap sensei to draw a card and then weld sensei out!
Oops, you can't do that.

tap:Draw a card, then put Sensei's Divining Top on top of its owner's library.The draw and the put back are both part of resolution. You can't perform actions during resolution. This card would be so broken if that were possible.

tpnp
07-02-2008, 10:25 AM
I believe HdH_Cthulhu meant to say this:
You can tap the Top and put the ability onto the stack. Then activate welder to put that on top of the Top ability. Welder resolves first, then the Top. After all is said and done you have a Top in the graveyard, an artifact in play from your graveyard, and you have drawn a card.

Finn
07-02-2008, 10:35 AM
Of course he meant that. I should have thought about what he probably meant rather than what he typed. My bad.

metalman2785
07-02-2008, 12:20 PM
I believe HdH_Cthulhu meant to say this:
You can tap the Top and put the ability onto the stack. Then activate welder to put that on top of the Top ability. Welder resolves first, then the Top. After all is said and done you have a Top in the graveyard, an artifact in play from your graveyard, and you have drawn a card.

So I can activate grindstone, then with the ability on the stack I can weld in my Painter's Servant for the win, right?

You guys should consider +1 trinket mage/grindstone/painter's servant if splashing blue. A resolved intuition pretty much guarantees a combo win the next turn :smile:

georgjorge
07-24-2008, 06:33 PM
To resurrect this thread a bit...

Grim Poppet is better than Trisk most of the times, since he gets bigger not smaller when pinging. You can't kill people behind a Moat anymore though, which Trisk could do...but I think I'll take the risk.

After trying out the minimal version (only 2 Welder, Titan, Trisk, Sphere, Anger), I'm now back to running four Welders again, in conjunction with three Buried Alive. I think that it's better to maximize the chance to combo out than put supporting stuff like Confidant or Magus in those slots, as it's more explosive, making for more third turn Titans. It also makes you more vulnerable to graveyard hate though: Leyline is really hard on that deck now, Extirpate is not a problem if you have more than one Welding target and otherwise must be gotten with discard, Crypt is ok since I can usually fetch a Chewer or Tin Street before. So I'm not entirely sold...Buried Alive can also set the combo up on it's own, but it will take up your turn three AND your turn four, so the opponent shouldn't have some kind of clock out (Genesis + Titan + Welder).

Leyline is also so bad because there aren't cheap enchantment removal creatures available (I'm not playing white) - the best I think is Thunderscape Battlemage for four mana.

Overall, I've found that the deck can hold its own against control, but has problems against either land destruction or fast beats (Goyf Sligh or UGr Thresh). The first makes me play twenty lands and two Rangers, while the second lead to me playing Goyfs and Wall of Blossoms over Confidant and Witness. Does anyone have better solutions to those problems ?

Finally, there are three slots in my sideboard now, and I wanted to ask what will be more effective here, Choke or Magus ? Not sure...

jazzykat
07-24-2008, 07:21 PM
As much as I hated people posting up decklists, can you put up yours so we can see what you are doing. Why not use thirst for knowledge or intuition or are you already doing that? They can produce CA or at least high value parity and both are instants!

georgjorge
07-25-2008, 11:21 AM
I play black for discard, so Buried Alive it is - but I think it's at least as good as Intuition, because with Intuition getting a card to your hand means you'd have to play two copies of Titan and Poppet each to get one into the yard. Intuition can fetch Survival, but that's about as slow as Buried Alive into Genesis + Welder + Titan is...

The list I've arrived at is:

8 Fetches
4 Taiga
4 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Bayou
1 Forest

4 Welder
4 Survival
3 Buried Alive

1 Titan
1 Poppet
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Shield Sphere
1 Genesis
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of the Moon

3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Top

4 Goyf
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Quirion Ranger


Notable sideboard choices

1 Darkheart Sliver (with Genesis against Burn)
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Thunderscape Battlemage
1 Gaddock Teeg + 1 Savannah (faster than Platinum Angel against combo)

TheLion
11-29-2008, 09:15 PM
Are there any new developments? Has anyone tested Sharuum the Hegemon (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/194.html)? It seems very good. I'm wondering why nobody mentioned it already.
Any thoughts?

m03
11-30-2008, 02:43 AM
Are there any new developments? Has anyone tested Sharuum the Hegemon (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/194.html)? It seems very good. I'm wondering why nobody mentioned it already.
Any thoughts?

What would you replace in order to fit it into the deck? The Welder-targets need to be kept to a minimum in order for the deck to remain competitive against the field, and Sharuum is dead without Welder.

It's interaction is cute, but I'd prefer to limit my Welder shenanigans to just Sundering Titan and the Arcbound Overseer->Triskelion combo.

Phoenix Ignition
11-30-2008, 03:48 PM
I've been testing out throwing in 2 sharuums + 1 disciple of the vault for instant kill. Sharuum is really good on his own, as a 5/5 flier can only really help you when you have the extra 1 mana to throw it in your graveyard before you resurrect the titan.

Also, after you get him out, all you need is 1 more in your graveyard and a disciple of the vault to instant win (assuming the opponent doesn't have removal.)

I play a different version of this deck though, with Thorn of Amethyst, aether vial, and SDT.

TheLion
11-30-2008, 05:55 PM
Lol, nice combo you found there... Let us here if it is really worth the slots.

I'm not sure about the Thorns though, but I agree that Vial > Mox Diamond imo in this deck, since you usually don't want to discard your lands.

georgjorge
11-30-2008, 07:15 PM
How does that combo work? Wouldn't you need a sac outlet and a way to untap Welder to deal infinite damage...:really:

Illissius
11-30-2008, 07:25 PM
Two Sharuum in graveyard. Reanimate one of them, use it to return the other. When it enters play, both of them die immediately as a state based effect. Then the CIP ability goes on the stack, use it to return a Sharuum. Rinse, repeat.

(AFAICT, this should work just the same with Bladewing the Risen, minus being an artifact -- wonder why I've never heard of that interaction before.)

Azania
12-02-2008, 12:04 AM
Heh the combo does work but you have to run black mana as well unless you want to rely on Birds of Paradise, in my build i run the following as kill:

1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Sphinx Sovereign
1x Collosus of Sardia (I like this one more Phyrexian Collosus due to trample)

In general I just put sharuum, sphinx and anger in the grave and then swing for 11, add another 3 life loss (from sphinx) at the end of the turn... Can kill as fast as turn 4 with this. I still am not sure if this is actually viable in tournaments but it does work for me rather well. My build is GRu (blue for intuition and thirst for knowledge).

The only downside is that they both require W and B mana part of their normal mana costs should things go haywire later on and somehow ending up hardcasting them ><. However this can be solved by BoP, by in my opinion, should it go that way then you are rather screwed anyway.

Since most decks these days do not have flying creatures both sphinx and sharuum have a nice touch of an advantage. And both are not just regular beaters either :). Sphinx still causes life loss if it gets blocked and if you cannot attack with it it gives you life :)

But I really do like Sharuum since it is an extra welder effect basically and it only cost 1 more G to get in the grave while you are using SotF.

TiB
01-29-2009, 11:27 PM
Sharuum is no good. That extra G makes a really big difference almost every time since this deck is pretty tight on it's mana. And if you have a 7/10 that just wrecked their manabase or a 4/5 flyer that just says NO lying around a 5/5 french vanilla isn't all that impressive.

I do highly encourage playing Ethersworn Canonist, I currently play 1 main and 2 side but I could see the main count getting upped. Aside from helping with the combo MU which is always welcome it is a cheap artifact and in conjunction with Nullstone Gargoyle pretty much spells gg in most MU's.
I think Canonist should be an auto-include in WeldSur playing white.

ps. am I the only one here playing GWr?
pps. is there anyone still actively playing and researching WeldSur or is it becoming one of the quirky decks of yore?

sco0ter
08-02-2009, 08:00 PM
Recently I got more and more interested in Welder Survival. There's some discussion in another thread, but it's GRB only, so I thought I necro this thread and post my thoughts here.

I don't like the white version, since Enlightened Tutor is a) card-disadvantage and b) is redundant in multiples (i hate hands with e.g. 1 survival and 2 tutor or 2 Fatties).
If I played white, I'd problably play only 2 Enlightened Tutor. And for 2 cards it's nearly not worthwhile to weaken your manabase.

The B splash has even less to offer in terms of tutoring.

So I went with the traditional (?) U splash, especially for Brainstorm, which shuffles Fatties on my hand back into library, fixes my mana in the early turns, searches for Survival and.........: Later in the game it still supports Lorescale Coatl. Yeah I tried the Coatl as an alternative win condition, in cases you don't have Survival. I had the idea, since the deck already runs Thirst for Knowledge and together with Brainstorm it would be pretty good.
And it turned out it is.

I cutted Intuition, since I never found it useful. Maybe I am missing something? It is supposed to be the alternative win condition, in case you don't have Survival, isn't it?
So you need Goblin Welder in play and hope he lives for one turn. Then you Intuition for 3 artifact fatties and you end up with Trikelion in hand and Titan in graveyard versus Elves and vicaversa against Control, which doesn't really help you.

Coatl ended some games against helpless opponents (e.g. Stax) in 3 or less swings.

However, honestly I am not sure, if Coatl is better than Tarmogoyf, even with the right support. But it still has some little advantages (CC 3: not Spell Snarable, harder for CB, imprints nice on Mox (UG), still works under Humility, ...)
I don't even know if the aggro plan is better than e.g. the Grindstone plan, or a Natural Order plan. But I want it to have a second plan. Any thoughts on that?
Intuition on Grinstone, Painter's Servant and Quirion Ranger is nearly gg, if you have a Welder already in play. No matter what they give you. Have to test this.
However, this combo means 2 more dead cards.


Another card I saw is Gamble. Could this be an Enlightened Tutor substitute, which is on-color?

miko
08-03-2009, 03:53 AM
good about coatls is that they usually are harder to be counterbalanced. but: tarmogoyf for example is green and does not die to reb. that is in my opinion one of the pros for tarmo

Shinbei
08-03-2009, 09:23 AM
I don't even know if the aggro plan is better than e.g. the Grindstone plan, or a Natural Order plan. But I want it to have a second plan. Any thoughts on that?


Usually you need backup plan when you aren't able to bring a welder in play. That would be against any kind of control. Worst thing would be Balance and Top in play.. Welder costs cc1.. yea.. gg

Adding other combo pieces such as grindstone (cc1 hrhr) or Natural Order do not advance you control match up. Against aggro you usually want to buy time and stall your opponents creatures. Tarmo and maybe Coatl are just fine. Your opponent needs to search for removals and even if he finds them.. there're less for welder and co.. and with anger in grave removals do not hurt at all.. you can do enough stuff before welder left the game.

Coatl only is too less for playing aggro imo.. so I would play 4x Tarmo and 4x Coatl at least.

sco0ter
08-03-2009, 10:51 AM
8 pure beaters, which do nothing but beat? I can't even hardly find room for 4.

The question is, what's the best:
- Play creatures, to stall aggro and have another plan against control.
- Play counterspells, discard or board control (EE) to slow aggro down, and get your survival resolved against control.
- Play tutors/draw, to find your Survival fast enough, to beat aggro with Welder action and to resolve Survival against control in the early turns.
- Play another "Ups, I win now-combo" like Grindstone or to a lesser extent Natural Order.

The creature plan might work best against aggro, but does nothing on the combo MU, while the discard/counter plan improves the combo MU, but is weaker against aggro.
And against control, I can't tell what's the best.

Finn
08-03-2009, 11:39 AM
I find myself wondering if Epochrasite might be helpful in this deck. Naturally it is not an especially powerful grab with Survival, but it does make Welders a bit more threatening in blue builds when Survival is not functioning.

Shinbei
08-03-2009, 12:27 PM
maybe when playing vials as well. but as sco0ter mentioned.. there is hardly enough room for trying new stuff^^

I'm gonna try the black build some more times.. maybe trying more mesmeric fiends.

I'm using Kitchen Finks as some kind of aggro/stall/whatever

Btw. what would your blue-build look like?

//Core (14)
4x SotF
3x Welder
1x Anger
1x Squee
1x Titan
1x Triskelion
1x Shield Sphere
1x Duplicant* (I still believe in him you don't^^)
1x Platinium Angel/Inkwell Levi* (when playing blue I would play levi md and the angel in sb)

//Utility (4)
1x Wickerbough Elder/Zealot
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Eternal Witness
1x Genesis* (not as strong as in other builds imo)

//Draw (8)
4x Brainstorm
4x TfK

//Counter (4)
4x FoW

//Beater (4)
4x Coatl

//Mana (22)
4x Tropical Island
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
2x Tree of Tales
1x Mountain
1x Forest
3x Chrome Mox

There's room for 6 more cards
Birds, Vials, Tarmos, more Rangers, more Witnesses, Daze, Tops.. don't know..

Btw.
I tried Sharuum in some earlier builds playing with sharuum and magister and additionally using buried alive and some reanimate spells..
Buried Alive for Anger, Sharuum and Magister reanimate on sharuum and fly for the win.. the good thing is that you are not addicted to welder nor survival..
But having 6 mana and aren't able to play it from hand really sucks..

sco0ter
08-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Yeah, can you read thoughs? That is nearly my current list.
However I dropped FoW again, because 16-18 blue cards is really the maximum you can play in this deck, but also the very minimum for FoW.
Considering that you also lose a card with Mox, I felt it was hard to cast.
And too much blue in this deck isn't good either, because you really want your Moxen to produce green mana.

Well, but I'll give FoW another chance...

@Platinum: He won me some games, I wouldn't have won otherwise. Sylvan Safekeeper helps him, too. So I'd still play him MD.

@Duplicant: Sometimes good, sometimes is Trikelion enough or better... I don't know if he's worth something. Maybe Grim Lavamancer could be in this spot. Together with Triskelion they kill at least */5 creatures.

@Nullstone Gargoyle: I play him, too. He buys so much time or just wins some games with his ability alone.

Never missed Genesis, though...

Shinbei
08-03-2009, 01:42 PM
Yeah, can you read thoughs? That is nearly my current list.
However I dropped FoW again, because 16-18 blue cards is really the maximum you can play in this deck, but also the very minimum for FoW.
Considering that you also lose a card with Mox, I felt it was hard to cast.
And too much blue in this deck isn't good either, because you really want your Moxen to produce green mana.

Well, but I'll give FoW another chance...

I didn't say go and use FoW!!!
I never used it in the former welder builds with tfk and intuition but against combo it would be nice or the only way to stop it.
@Duplicant.. welding in alternately duplicant - triskelion is hard to handle..
it's the best removal you got in the deck so far

chokin
08-03-2009, 03:33 PM
I have a GRw build I've been working on. It has Sharuum and Magister Sphinx which pretty much end the game outside of your opponent removing one, but you still put them at 10 when Magister hits.

I dropped blue, but I might bring it back. I'm running Painter as the main combo with Welder backup. Haven't played it much since we have a burn heavy meta right now.

Shinbei
10-01-2009, 05:13 PM
thread digger ftw

I tried a GRwu version at the moment. Or better a bant/r version

Since I often had problems with some annoying creatures I put StoP in the deck and I'm glad about it..

I'm still using Looter il-Kor as my second discard outlet and to strenghten this guy I cut the birds an replaced them with Noble Hierarch. Then I thought "hell.. why not trying the other bant stuff too?" so I added pridemages and war monks.
Looks like that

//
Wooded Foothills 4x
Windswept Heath 2x
Tree of Tales 2x
Taiga 4x
Tropical Island 3x
Savannah 2x
Mountain 1x
Forest 1x
Chrome Mox 3x

//
SotF 4x
AEther Vial 4x(since the hierarch cannot produce R I left these in)

//
Noble Hierarch 4x
Goblin Welder 3x
Qasali Pridemage 2x (mb artifact/enchantment destruction helped a lot)
Rhox War Monk 2x
Rafiq of the Many 1x
Tarmogoyf 4x
Looter il-kor 3x

//
Shield Sphere 1x
Triskelion 1x
Sundering Titan 1x
Duplicant 1x
Inkwelll Leviathan 1x (replaces Platinum Angel.. this guy is often gg)

//
Anger 1x
Squee, Goblin Nabob 1x

//
Swords to Plowshares 4x

I nearly cut the whole toolbox because it was too clumsy.

//SB
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormods Crypt
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Platinum Angel
4x XXX

Malchar
10-26-2009, 04:56 PM
Bumping this thread with some questions. I'm considering making this deck after having previously played Imperial Painter. Has there been any consideration in using Painter/Grindstone for a win condition? Also, I already own Imperial Recruiters, so would there be any place for them in this deck? With a few minor tweaks to the toolbox, this card searches for almost anything in the deck. Also, is anyone using Lion's Eye Diamond in this deck anymore?

Forbiddian
10-26-2009, 05:10 PM
Painter's Grind takes up more slots than Sundering Titan (which seals the game against most decks). Also, Painter is bad on its own, so is Grindstone. Survival only lets you tutor for creatures, so you can't even guarantee the combo.

Painter's Grind is a good combo, but just doesn't fit in Survival.

sco0ter
12-28-2009, 01:01 PM
I consider playing this deck on an upcoming large Legacy event (~200 players I guess).

What do you think about this decklist:

1 Volcanic Island
2 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Lorescale Coatl
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Duplicant
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Shield Sphere
2 Goblin Welder


3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Firespout

I have only 1 Tarmogoyf, but I wonder if Lorescale Coatls aren't better here, (U for FoW and much support cards).

Phoenix Ignition
12-28-2009, 01:10 PM
Have you thought about Sharuum + Magister Sphinx + Anger? I've been running that instead of the usual Inkwell + Steel Wind, and am really liking the 1 hit kill.

Waikiki
12-28-2009, 01:56 PM
how does that list look like?

Mystical_Jackass
12-28-2009, 02:26 PM
My question is, what reason would someone play this over Reanimator... it seems to do the same thing but much faster

Kanabo
12-28-2009, 04:07 PM
Has anyone tested eternal witness in this deck? It seems good.

sco0ter
12-28-2009, 07:26 PM
@Phoenix Ignition: I don't like those creatures, since they don't have that much impact on the game. I also think Inkwell + Steel Wind are rather unusual. Usually I see Titan, Triskelion, Nullstone and/or Platinum.

@Mystical_Jackass: Survival has probably the better mid and lategame. I never played Reanimator, but Entomb is only a one shot.

Eternal Witness is obviously always good, at least as one off.

What do you think about FoW and Lorescale Coatl in this deck?

Would stifle/nought be viable? It has some nice interactions with Welder (similar trick as with Vial).

I never liked Intuition though.