[Deck] 8Tezz.dec - UB Tezzeret

[Ellomdian]

8Tezz.dec - A Primer in Parts

(Update 7/23/18)

Why is Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas better than Jace, The Mind Sculptor?

Legacy is a format defined by efficient interactions. As the format has matured in recent years, the average cost of business spells (as opposed to trick cards) has steadily decreased to the point where it is hard to argue that Brainstorm is not one of (if not the most) powerful card in the format. Traditionally, when a format values efficiency, proactive disruption strategies become more valuable. A deck that can create a game plan that ignores the symmetry of a negative disruptive effect then poses a powerful answer as long as the environment continues to be conducive to that disruption.

When preparing for GP Denver in October '12, I was trying to find a deck that was both fun to play and powerful enough to justify participating in the event. I love Legacy, and was actively promoting both the format and the event locally. While it's interesting to watch the intricacies of play when a combo deck is trying to go off, or to see what crazy deck “that guy” at your local legacy tournament brought this time, or even to watch skilled players pilot scalpels like RUG Delver, it can be discouraging for players new to the environment to feel like they are at a disadvantage because they do not already know the complexity of the environment. So I needed something that was as fun to watch as it was to pilot. Then I saw Caleb D’s original article on CFB (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-tearing-up-cinci-1st/) and Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_ub_tezzeret_with_cal.html) and thought he was on to something. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? Turn 2? Karns and Wurmcoils and Solemn in Legacy? And you still get to play JTMS and FOW? I was intrigued, and had an copy proxied when I got home that night.

Tezzeret has seen some fringe play over the past couple of years in Legacy, at first in 2011 with Drew Levin’s and then around 2012 with David Gearhart’s Tezz-Thopter lists. The original shell was a heavy control list complete with the requisite Engineering Explosives, Ensnaring Bridges and acceleration to power out turn two Jaces and Tezzerets . These shells also used SDT MD and Counterbalances out of the board to create another form of control for various matchups. At the heart of both of these lists was the Thopter-Sword combo. Each of these decks performed rather well, both with solid showings.

Adam Prosak in June of 2012 piloted a Tezzeret list and placed 21st running a slightly more aggressive version of the deck. Gone was the Thopter-Sword combo and in went more utility and a more directed plan at making 5/5’s and smashing faces with a Tezz ultimate as backup.

The premise is simple – Legacy is traditionally about chaining efficient plays together. Acceleration is typically left to combo decks who are willing to sacrifice the card quality for early velocity because they are often trying to win on the spot (rendering average quality of cards left in their decks moot.) Mid-range strategies typically rely on early hand disruption to prevent the opponent from moving ahead, but that often results in slim margins of card advantage, with strict rules for the rest of the deck. And control strategies frequently have a problem getting overwhelmed. UBTezz (or my pet name, 8Tezz, discussed below) was originally a midrange control deck with light disruptive elements based around acceleration from City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, and Talismans. The money-shot plays were Turn 2 Tezzeret or JTMS, and T3/4 wurmcoil or Karn were not unreasonable. The nature of Tezz allowed the deck to run a variety of artifact answers, and find them reliably without traditional tutoring. And Planeswalker combinations were ridiculous – being able to Jacestorm and then Tezz, or visa versa, allows you to see up to 8 cards and often more.

I was excited. The deck was fun to play, fun to watch, and my opponents were often enjoying losing (seriously, who plays Solemn in legacy… Turn 2…) more than they would to AnT or RUG. It was a great showcase deck that attracted new players to watch and see what it was about.

And then someone asked why I was only playing one Chalice of the Void.

Games that I had a Chalice on 1 were awesome. My opponents were often stuck with 4 or 5 cards in their hands they could not cast. Brainstorm was just cold. And the games I pulled it off Turn 1? Just ridiculous. I was playing with 2, testing with 3, quickly decided to try 4. And it just started clicking.

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The Deck Today

From the success of Cincinnati came yet another list brainstormed by Chris Andersen and Chris Vanmeter, this first of which managed Top 8 at SCG Open in Nashville. The deck did a full circle and went back to using the Thopter-Sword combo, optioning for a 2/2 split between them and adding in Transmute Artifacts to help tinker up the needed combo pieces, or in a pinch another piece of utility. Chris Andersen took down the following SCG , and 2 weeks before that he T8’d. His motivating factors to play the deck? It was fun and it was powerful.

I will be discussing my current list, which is [/B]

Maindeck

Creatures (4)
4 Baleful Strix

Planeswalkers (7)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands (22)
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Polluted Delta
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Spells (27)
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Dimir Signet
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 The Abyss
1 Staff of Nin

3 Transmute Artifact
1 Damnation
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sorcerers Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Sun Droplet
2 Misdirection
1 No Mercy

4 Ancient Tomb/3 City of Traitors. Colorless mana is good. Urborg means that Tomb draws don’t straight kill you. 7 Sol Lands gives us a 60% Hyper-geo prob to draw at least one in our opener, with ~%18 of 2 or more

4 Underground Sea / 3 Polluted Delta /3 Darkslick Shores- I really like shore. It dodges choke, it effectively never causes a tempo problem because of the Sol Lands, It is effectively a Sea that can't be fetched. There is argument for the 4th Delta, but you will often run out of Fetch able lands.

4 Talisman of Dominance/ 2 Dimir Signet- Talismans are more flexible if your lands get a-sploded. This gives us a slightly less than 55% probability of hitting a Rock T1 (Why not run 7, so the odds match the Sols? Because, a hand with a rock without a sol is generally terrible, while a hand with a Sol without a Rock still has reasonably lines.)

1 Seat of the Synod- Tezz grabs it, and when it swing for 5, abrupt decay can't kill it. I don't run more because, in order of importance: Wasteland, Blood Moon, ShatteringSpreeOxidizeSmeltAncientGrudge-every-other-artifact-hate-card-becoming-a-wasteland. (Chris says he would love more, and I will often include a Vault for environments where Damnation maindeck is a priority.)

1 Island /1 Swamp - I like not losing to Wasteland and occasionally (but not as often) Blood Moon.

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth– Making colorless lands tap for B is nice, making Tomb not kill you is nice, making fetches Swamps is nice.

1 Academy Ruins – Getting back any artifact in a deck filled with artifacts is good. Being able to put an artifact on top and then guarantee a tezz hit is great. There are decks that cannot beat an EE every turn.

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas- He is the heart of this deck. I LOVE people killing JTMS and ignoring this guy. He is a huge card advantage engine, and both of his minus abilities are your best wincons.

3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor- He will brainstorm so many Rocks and Lands to the top of your deck for an express Tezz trip to the bottom. Will generally elicit whimpers and sighs from Control players if stuck T2.

4 Chalice of the Void- T1 Chalice on 1 may well be a stronger play from this deck against much of the field than a T2 walker. Also an almost ideal card to side out against matches it's not fantastic against - that sounds obvious, a card that is either insane or dead makes sideboard construction and strategy much easier.

4 Force of Will- You need a way to interact with fast-combo. It only costs you 4 slots. The biggest downside is that it encourages you to run more blue cards. Great protection for T2 walker hands.

4 Baleful Strix- Draw a card, block something, eat a goyf, be an artifact, be a blue card.

1 Damnation/ 1 The Abyss– Kill a lot of creatures at once, or grind them out.

1 Ensnaring Bridge– Something to keep in mind: You can fail to find Tezz activations to keep your hand size down. With the rise in Show and Tell strategies cheating Griselbrand into play, and the coming-out party for True Name Nemesis, Ensnaring Bridge has been promoted from role-player to all-star. I've seen decks that run up to 4 main.

2 Sword of the Meek / 2 Thopter Foundry– The key combo in this version of the deck. Sac an artifact with sword in the yard (or the sword itself) and when the thopter comes into play, you can return the sword to play. This combo will reliably kill your opponent with a Tezz activation, gives you life, blockers, and even attackers that get in under most bridge game states.

3 Transmute Artifact – Transmute is effectively tinker. You almost always have enough mana to get whatever card you need at the time, and both of your two card combo pieces are artifacts, as are your best answer cards.

2 Thirst for Knowledge– It’s rare that you don’t have an artifact to discard, and it plays off of a Sol land and a Talisman.

1 Staff of Nin- It's often a Transumtable planeswalker. TONS of stuff has 1 toughness.

UBr Tezz

While a number of older Tezz players advocate a more midrange-oriented approach, there are players who enjoy some success with a resource-denial or prison oriented approach based on a Tezz shell. This can be a particularly effective strategy if you have a smaller meta, or if you do not have a lot of denial strategies (RUG/BUG) that people can prepare for.

Undomain played the following to a 5-3 record at DC, and I fully believe it is a Day-2 deck.

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Baleful Strix
2 Dimir Signet
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 The Abyss
4 Force of Will

SB:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
3 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Lodestone Golem


This version has the option to set up a Crucible-lock with Wastelands, and uses Mox Diamonds to accelerate (which can lead to more explosive starts than the alternative Sol-Rock, at the cost of cards and potential land drops.) This is particularly potent when paired with Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere-like effects.

Helmerator (Zach Dobbin's List from Eternal Weekend '14)

Zach Dobbin T8'd Eternal Weekend '14 with a spicy list featuring 100% less JTMS and Leyline/Helm combo main. Since the meta had shifted towards more graveyard-value oriented strategies (due to the impact of Treasure Cruise) Zach decided to support the 2 card combo with a compliment of Tezzeret, The Seeker's.


4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret, the Seeker
4 Baleful Strix
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Force of Will
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Dimir Signet
1 Trinisphere
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb to Yawgmoth

SB:

1 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull


This type of list (and the Helm combo in general) presents an attractive option with the recent banning of Deathright Shaman making various Graveyard-based strategies more viable.


Sideboard Options

This deck provides a variety of sideboard options, depending on the environment and your playstyle. I feel it’s more appropriate to discuss them in the Matchup Analysis. (General rules like “Engineered Plague is good against Goblins and Elves and occasionally Enchantress” still apply.)

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Gameplans and Matchups

It can be difficult to play this deck at first, because it differentiates itself in legacy with the following idea: The "advantage" this deck gives us in Legacy is the ability to sacrifice T1 velocity to build resources, specifically mana, and also, we can Chalice T1 with little downside. Mulligans should be determined based on the strength of your T1 and T2 plays - if you don't have one, get one!

Rule 1, every match: Chalice on 1 is probably the best turn 1 play. Barring that, Turn 2 Tezzeret (seconded by Jace) is your plan. If you can’t do either, you need to establish a line of play that takes advantage of acceleration if possible. You do not have significant reactive lines of play available outside of Force of Will , and your goal is to establish a game state on board that takes advantage of your mana and card selection.

One of the most convenient plans for victory is -4 on Tezz (it will require +1 at least once) with artifacts under your control = opponent's life total / 2. Many, MANY people will not realize that the ability effectively doubles the drain until it is too late. And one of the fastest ways to build an artifact count is Thopter/Sword.

Another frequent decision is whether to turn an artifact you control into a 5/5 to attack an opponent. It will be dependent on the game state, but keep in mind that generally, turning an artifact into a creature makes it more vulnerable to removal, and allows opponents to interact with it in combat. While making a Talisman an attacking creature can quickly put a game away, be careful when turning other artifacts. Of particular note however, and it’s worth mentioning again – turning an artifact land into a 5/5 will make it immune to a number of removal spells, especially Abrupt Decay.

RUG Delver/Thresh

This deck is ESPECIALLY vulnerable to Chalice on 1. Damnation, Deluge, or Perish if you run them will answer Mongoose and Goyf, but you are vulnerable to wasteland and stifle in many gamestates. Acceleration will allow you to play over cards like Daze and Spell Pierce. Keep in mind that shattering spree and Flusterstorm will be countered by a chalice on 1, but that copies will not, and that Krosan Grip is starting to see more play.

Death and Taxes[i]

This deck typically leads to surprisingly interactive games, depending on the level of disruption in their draw and the nature of your gameplan. Cards like The Abyss have a *TON* of play, and DnT's typical gameplan of Wasting you into oblivion is less effective due to an increased mana count. Max out sweepers and try to get a quick board threat online before they can draw bullet cards.

[i]AnT (Storm Combo)

The most important part of playing against storm combo with Tezz is understanding what your opponent needs in a given situation to go off. Chalice can provide significant disruption, but a chalice on the wrong cost will not only fail to interact meaningfully with an opponent, it will disrupt your plans. Keep in mind that “free” mana (Mox, LED, Petal) costs 0, D Rit, most cantrips, disruption (like duress) and chain of vapor cost 1, and Infernal Tutor and C Rit cost 2. If you want to increase the proactive elements of the deck, cards like Trinisphere and Lodestone golem will decrease the efficiency of rituals and free mana sources. If you prefer more reactive cards, Vendilion Clique and Duress are solid choices.

BUG

BUG has strong card advantage elements coupled with threats and answers. This is a match where 5/5’s can often win the day if you keep Goyf’s size under control with graveyard management. It will often be more
grindy, and being able to Walker early and often is important to maintain card parity against Liliana, Visions, Hymn, and opposing Jaces. There is an interesting argument for the value of The Abyss over Damnation, and this is one of the matchups where it really shines. BUG will usually keep the number of threats on the table low, and the Abyss does not affect your creatures at all. Misdirection is an option in the board because Visions and Hymn can be so swingy, and even Notion Thief is an option.


Topless Miracles

Arguably the deck that folds to chalice almost as badly as RUG, Miracles is making less of an impact these days. This is another matchup that is often won on the back of 5/5 talismans, especially post board if they are prepared for ThopterSword. Lodestones are very strong out of the SB, often in place of Bridges. Be careful of explosive Mentor draws.

Goblins

This can be an extremely difficult Game 1 if you do not have main-deck sweepers. Ratchet Bomb and EE are very slow to kill anything but tokens, and even an early Bridge can be insufficient if you get caught with cards in hand. Baleful Strix and Thopter tokens can't block Piledriver, and Jace can't bounce him. Even Thalia can cause problems, making your spells cost more when you desperately need to be casting them on-curve. Post board, you should be loaded with Sweepers (Damnation and Deluge, EE) and EPlagues (even 1 can cause problems until they get lords online.) You should also bring in all Bridges if you are running board copies. I generally side out the Thopter Combo, as if you can get the game under control, you will likely be winning through a Tezz ult or 2.

Anything with Show And Tell

I still feel that this matchup is this deck’s major weakness. They are often using a similar strategy (sol lands) to make more powerful early plays (show and tell, sneak attack) while sacrificing mid and late game strength (in this matchup.) Disrupting their cantrips with a chalice on 1 can be helpful, and understanding how they plan to win is important. Ensnaring bridge can often play an unexpectedly crucial role preventing an attack. Post board, Pithing-needle-type effects are helpful in preventing Griselbrand from drawing cards or Sneak Attack from working at all, Duress and Clique will disrupt hands that require development, and sometimes many, many, many thopters will give you permanents to sac to Emrakul and blockers to keep you from dying.

Burn

Burn has been problematic since their threat suite has expanded from a pile of bolts into lists that include multiple flame rift effects, Eidelon of the Great Revel, and maindeckable Price of Progress. At this point, if Burn is a strategy you can expect to play against in your meta, I feel that you need to have cards in the board to deal specifically with it. Sun Droplet is very strong against both dedicated burn as well as decks that expect to use burn as reach.


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Conclusion

Why is Tezz better than Jace, and why do I like to call the deck 8Tezz? Everyone knows the inherent power of JTMS – the abilities it offers are universally fantastic in any deck that can tap for 2UU, and if left unanswered for multiple turns, it generates inevitability that wins games. Tezzeret is more subtle, and yet, if unanswered, threatens to win the game in a single turn. He requires more work in design and construction, but the payoff is significant – his card advantage ability is a + and not a 0, and his ultimate is accessible after a single use.

As a board-control deck, the strength of a Turbo-walker strategy is largely dependant on the decks you expect to play against and the amount of time you've practiced. While the deck has wayned in strength recently, I believe the banning of DRS opens up an opportunity in the Meta if RUG-Delver style decks come back with abandon.

</ellomdian> (Special thanks to Memnoch)

History of Deck Lists;

Drew Levin’s Tezz-Thopter List (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21190_Building_A_Legacy_Casting_Tezzeret_Agent_of_Bolas_On_Turn_Two.html)
(continued) (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1533&d=211919)

David Gearhart’s Tezz-Thopter AKA “A Shot in the Dark” List (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43755)

Adam Prosak’s List and Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_tezzeret_with_adam_p.html)

Caleb Durward’s Article (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-tearing-up-cinci-1st/) and Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_ub_tezzeret_with_cal.html)

Chris Vanmeter’s original article on Star City Games (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26200_UB-Tezzeret.html) and an update for Tezz at GP DC '13. (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27329_Tezz-For-Prez.html)

Zach Dobbin's Helmerator Deck Tech Vid from GP NJ 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o1ci0vxSeo)

[Ellomdian]

(Holding Open for further updates, additions, whatever...)

[Megadeus]

Looks good. I think some cards that have potential to see play but weren't in the stock list should be talked about such as The Abyss.

[lukatron2]

Great write up, man! I would love to play this deck but I don't own Jace. Anyhow I've been a fan of this deck for a while and it's cool to see it placing high at some huge events recently.

[karaxu]

A good deck! Hope it starts to see more play with that win from Chris Andersen.

[Machahiko]

None of the SCG links work at the moment. :(

[ScatmanX]

Bold, Italic, tags, not abreviatting cards, and better spacing should make this more anjoyable to read.
The deck needed a better primer though. Nice.

[kingtk3]

Thank you for the hard work Ellomdian!!!
I think that an example list other the linked one could be useful.

[Poron]

Good deck.

Every card is a threath.
Baleful Strix, Chalice of the Void, both the planeswalkers...

if it starts being played often, we'll see so much Artifact hate around

[.dk]

Good writeup on a very fun deck. A thread that is probably worth mentioning in the opening post on Planeswalker Stax/Super Stax:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20053

I know you didn't leverage this deck for yours, but some of the discussions and later builds in the thread are somewhat similar (particularly Lejay's Bridgewalker version with Transmute Artifact).

[Madmankevinx]

Hey Chris, I noticed you ran an Abyss in your list yesterday! How did the deck run? How did you do? Just curious and excited to see my favorite black card end up in your list finally!

[Memnoch]

None of the SCG links work at the moment. :(

Don't know what happened to the links, I'll send Ellomdian the Correct ones so he can update the Primer.

For now;

History of Deck Lists;

Drew Levin’s Tezz-Thopter List;
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21190_Building_A_Legacy_Casting_Tezzeret_Agent_of_Bolas_On_Turn_Two.html
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1533&d=211919

David Gearhart’s Tezz-Thopter AKA “A Shot in the Dark” List;
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43755

Adam Prosak’s List and Deck Tech;
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_tezzeret_with_adam_p.html

Chris Vanmeter’s article on Star City Games
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26200_UB-Tezzeret.html

*Ok, I sent Ellomdian a cleaned up and properly (hopefully) tagged version that I worked on with my free time today. Hopefully he can use it to update the primer. :]

[Undomian]

I've recently been agonizing over whether or not I should be including Crucible of Worlds in my deck. I play this deck with a very different approach to the manabase, as I really dislike Darkslick Shores as a card here. I'd rather shuffle off Jace more often as opposed to getting around Choke. As a result, even though my maindeck is very similar to what everyone else plays, I play this manabase:

2x Dimir Signet
4x Mox Diamond
1x Academy Ruins
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
1x Swamp
1x Island

Though Mox Diamond is indeed card disadvantage and a dead draw sometimes, I feel that it serves a few very important functions. Not only does it give me 10 potential ways to play Chalice on 1 on turn 1, but it also allows me to play more colorless utility lands in the deck. See: Wasteland. The extra Fetches can be pitched so that they're still live sources of mana in the late game. Who knows, maybe I'll look back at this post in a few months and consider myself an idiot for ever wanting to play Diamond over more 2CMC rocks, but even from the days of playing Bridgewalkers Diamond has always seemed like the card this deck has wanted.

So, really, my ranting leads to two questions I have for myself: number of Wasteland and Mishra's Factory/Tarpit in the "flex" land slots, and whether or not Crucible has a place in the deck. I'm 99% sure that it does, but finding that one card to cut is just so difficult.

[Madmankevinx]

I really want a 1 of Crucible in there as well with at least 2 Wasteland. Not at all sure how to squeeze them in without going up to a 61 card deck.

[Ellomdian]

I really want a 1 of Crucible in there as well with at least 2 Wasteland. Not at all sure how to squeeze them in without going up to a 61 card deck.

Or wrecking your manabase. I am happy to test some of the more exotic Mox Diamond-type variants, but I feel like the more colorless lands you pack on top of 7-8 sol lands, the less you reliably hit 2 colored sources T2. Also, you really don't have extra mana until T3-4, and at that point, wasteland has lost a LOT of it's usefulness.

No one likes recursive wasteland'ing someone more than me (followed closely by Stax and Stasis) but I feel that's drifting back towards the Walker/Prison type decks, and while Chalice/Golemn are prison-y effects, they are really engineered more as tempo plays in this style of list.

[Madmankevinx]

Anyone have a lot of experience against esperblade/deathblade yet? I am finding it to be an almost auto loss if facing an opponent with a higher skill level. My fast starts are made very difficult to impossible because of the discard/counter magic at their disposal. One fellow in particular has dropped all basics for a trop and wastelands(talk about greed) and runs deathrites (no bobs) and I am 1-6 in 3 rounds against this deck although some pretty rough hands and mulling to 5 has had a lot to do with it... Any advice on this- starting to become a sore subject- for me?

[Ellomdian]

Anyone have a lot of experience against esperblade/deathblade yet? I am finding it to be an almost auto loss if facing an opponent with a higher skill level. My fast starts are made very difficult to impossible because of the discard/counter magic at their disposal. One fellow in particular has dropped all basics for a trop and wastelands(talk about greed) and runs deathrites (no bobs) and I am 1-6 in 3 rounds against this deck although some pretty rough hands and mulling to 5 has had a lot to do with it... Any advice on this- starting to become a sore subject- for me?

Lodestone Golem is deceptively good. Something to keep in mind is that there is no single silver bullet against this matchup. A victory will usually come from attacking them on at least 2 levels. The easiest way to accomplish this is to draw more cards. Fast Jace, TfK, and if you really want to get there, Notion Thief. Keeping Liliana away is important if you are already down. Right now, I prefer Damnation against them because the Abyss doesn't kill Geist.

If all else fails, apparently, wait for Maverick (and Reanimator!...) to come back fully and punch their misguided unfocused midrange plans into the dirt. It can be frustrating to watch SCG week in and week out gush over Todd Anderson and his BestCardsIn4Colors.dec and the self-propagating inbred Meta it creates (no offense to Todd, he's a solid player) and not actually understand the difference between ANT and TES. I loved the token commentary when they read their Tweets this weekend - "Well, they are all basically storm decks" - when they spend HOURS talking about the "Innovation" of adding Deathrite to Stoneblade. /endRant

[Tammit67]

If all else fails, apparently, wait for Maverick (and Reanimator!...) to come back fully and punch their misguided unfocused midrange plans into the dirt. It can be frustrating to watch SCG week in and week out gush over Todd Anderson and his BestCardsIn4Colors.dec and the self-propagating inbred Meta it creates (no offense to Todd, he's a solid player) and not actually understand the difference between ANT and TES. I loved the token commentary when they read their Tweets this weekend - "Well, they are all basically storm decks" - when they spend HOURS talking about the "Innovation" of adding Deathrite to Stoneblade. /endRant

Preach it, brother.

In my group's experience, we've had success(top 16 SCG Baltimore) going for thopters ASAP running Vanmeter's list. Lodestone sounds like it would also do some heavy lifting if given the chance

[kingtk3]

I've played in small tournament with a list very similar to th OP:

4 Baleful Strix

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Darkwater catacombs

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Force of Will
2 dimir charm
2 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dimir Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
3 Lodestone Golem
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Damnation
1 Duress
1 Notion thief
1 Perish
1 virtue's ruin


RUG 2-1: won the first game with chalice of the void and the third on the back of thopters
BUG 1-2: I didn't expect Liliana to be this powerfull against this deck, also chalice of the void aren't this useul against BUG
Stoneblade 2-0: easy victory, we have too many bombs for them to handle
Charbelcher 2-0: ratchet bomb against their first turn etw, then fow and jace, both the games
TOP 4
Charbelcher 2-0: basically the same as round 4

we split the first and second place.

Deck felt solid and funny to play. Props to dimir charm which was quite useful in many times, from killing delvers/mystics to countering rites which would have ended the game.

[AmishLuvah]

Anyone else notice that the price of Transmute Artifact suddenly spiked? :laugh:

[Memnoch]

Anyone else notice that the price of Transmute Artifact suddenly spiked? :laugh:

I did notice the jump right after Chris won. Foil Tezzeret's also jumped up in price quite abit.

[Horto]

Is it possible to get this deck rolling without Jace? I pretty much have all other pieces, but them Jaces are so hard to aquire!
Have anyone been testing SFM-build (with or without Mox Diamond)? How about MD Liliana?

[Intiok]

Has anyone been testing the Leyline of the Void + Helm kill version of the deck? Here's the list i've been testing, so far it has been pretty inspiring. My meta is swimming with reanimator and BUG variants so the maindeck leyline is a boss, and this makes every kill in the deck decay-proof. Any thoughts/suggestions are appreciated.

Main Deck:

Enchantment:
4 Leyline of the Void

Artifact:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Dimir Signet

Planeswalker:
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant/Sorcery:
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Thirst for Knowledge

Creature:
4 Baleful Strix

Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Island
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 3 Dimir Charm
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

[AmishLuvah]

I went 2-2 at a local tourney yesterday with this. It could have easily gone 3-1 (with me cutting to top 4) but I flooded out both games vs. Merfolk in the 4th match.


4x Baleful Strix
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
2x Transmute Artifact
1x The Abyss
1x Damnation
2x Dimir Charm
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Talisman of Dominance
3x Dimir Signet
4x Force of Will

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Polluted Delta
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
1x Academy Ruins
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Vault of Whispers

Sideboard:
1x Dimir Charm
3x Lodestone Golem
1x Duress
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Notion Thief
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Perish
3x Engineered Plague
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ensnaring Bridge


I know I'm at 61 cards, just can't seem to help myself with a toolbox deck like this with so much potential card advantage. Already decided to change my mana base around a bit, take out a delta,an island and an Underground Sea, add an Urborg and 2 Darkslick Shores. Karn is likely coming out and being replaced with Phyrexian Metamorph (had some success with it in the past) or more likely Engineered Explosives. I've been really tempted to give Spine of Ish Sah a try but 7 mana is just WAY too much to pay for something that can't end the game by itself no matter how much value it gets with a Thopter Foundry in play. This deck is great against tempo decks (anything with a delver in it I've just been beating to death) but I've had a hard time with Stoneblade if I don't see an Academy Ruins. The local control players tend to stay away from soft counters (read Spell Pierce) so it lessens the value of chalice against them turn 1 a little bit. Any advice on playing against Stoneblade would be much appreciated.

Play of the day? I cast Notion Thief in response to a Brainstorm and they could do nothing about it. It won me the game. :cool:

[TheAardvark]

I played the deck (The Abyss main over Ratchet Bomb, otherwise stock list) in a tournament yesterday (my first Legacy event since 2008), and lost in the T8. My losses for the day were to BUG and Elves (in the T8). The loss to BUG was because, while Chalice can be awkward for them, Abrupt Decay makes it irrelevant a lot of the time, and he just drew better cards than I did after the first few turns, and my hand was just decimated by Hymn time and again. Elves was frustrating; Game 1 I got down to 4 with Jace + Tezz, Brainstormed with Jace, played a land and Ensnaring Bridge with zero cards, but I had put Force of Will on top instead of a land. So, I ended up drawing Force and had to Brainstorm to try to draw a land + castable spell, and hit Force, land, land and died to 1/1 guys attacking. Game 2 I mulled for Chalice and got a serviceable 5 card hand minus Chalice, so I kept and ended up losing to Nature's Claim + Viridian Shaman on The Abyss and Ensnaring Bridge.

Upon reflection, I want to adjust the mana slightly by adding another Island, Delta, and a Badlands to use with Explosives, as there were multiple times where EE for 3 would have been game changing. The only lands that can really be cut for those, IMO are Darkslick Shores, which wouldn't make me too sad because I had a couple of games where drawing them late was super awkward. I also want some other way to win, because it just felt like I didn't have enough ways to actually do that at times. I don't know if Helm + Leyline is the way to go (too many slots), but I am definitely looking for something.

[Ellomdian]

It's amusing how many people don't enjoy a good, grindy midrange deck with 2 combo kills already built in :p...

I have been playing around with Mox diamond, and I feel that it just makes your bad matchups worse, and your good ones marginally better. You are down so many cards against Deathblade and BUG that a single Thoughseize can be backbreaking. I want to slow down these matchups, not speed them up.

While the deck is playable without JTMS, I feel the only other real option is Tamiyo, and she's WAY behind JTMS at 5CMC. Liliana does not represent a real threat because you are generally putting yourself at a disadvantage to cast the walker in the first place, and she will just dig you a deeper hole, especially if you have to kill a creature early.

I like the idea of Leyline/Helm as an alternative win con, but I dislike that Leyline is not an artifact (and that you should probably go whole hog with 4 if this is your plan.) I wish leyline did more against Deathblade and SnT, it's kind of a niche answer if you deal with a lot of graveyard decks.

[TheAardvark]

Oh, I LOVE the deck. I was just noting some things that came about from the experience I had in playing the deck in the event. BUG seems like an absolute nightmare matchup, since Plan A (Chalice) is a minor inconvenience to them, and they just have more card advantage and threats than us.

[Jay_Gatz]

Went 4-1-1 to top 8 a 40ish person local tournament this past weekend
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, The Mindsculptor
1 The Abyss
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Baleful Strix
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Dimir Signet
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosive
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island

3 Lodestone Golem
2 Damnation
2 Perish
2 Duress
2 Dimir Charm
1 Trinisphere
1 Meekstone
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

The list is mostly stock because I didn't really test enough (at all) to make changes. I don't like the maindeck spellbomb at all. I always seem to draw it when I have a chalice out or I keep loose hands and cycle it on turn two, I will probably replace it with something like a dimir charm or a third thirst for knowledge. SB worked out quite well, used all of the cards except grafdigger's cage but I didn't play against anything I would need it against.

[Madmankevinx]

I agree on the Nihil Spellbomb. I dropped it in the main deck for a Phyrexian Revoker and have not looked back. Revoker has acted as a silver bullet for me against Sneak and Show a few times, and it can stop Lion's Eye Diamond or Lotus Petal too @ storm decks in case I don't happen to have a chalice on 0. It also stops our worst enemy: Engineered Explosives(on 2). I also run 2 Abyss and 3 Jace instead of 1 & 4.

[Undomian]

I agonized over playing either this or Spiral Tide at my local today, but ended up deciding on this when I saw a lot of delvers floating around. I played the following list to a 2-2-1 finish:

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Badlands
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Baleful Strix
1 Dimir Charm
2 Dimir Signet
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 The Abyss
4 Force of Will


Sideboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dimir Charm
1 In the Eye of Chaos
2 Infest
1 Perish
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Venser, Shaper Savant


Regarding the decklist: I have a lot of graveyard strategies in my meta, so I'm still packing Leylines. In the Eye of Chaos was more of a "well, why not" concession because I didn't feel like switching a Flusterstorm out of my Tide sideboard.

Round 1: Dean with Death & Taxes
These games were interesting. Not having played against D&T a lot, Leonin Arbiter was a surprise to say the least. I lost game 1, but ended up taking game 2 off the back of a turn 2 Tezzeret making an army of 5/5s, and game 3 on the back of Thopters after he used his Serenity to wipe my board of 2 Baleful Strix and an Abyss. Boarding was something like -4 FoW, -1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 EE, +2 Infest, +2 Dimir Charm
1-0

Round 2: Judge Chris with 4C Loam
This match was not as memorable. My hands were below average both games, and Devastating Dreams when I was lacking both FoW and Dimir Charm was well.. Devastating. His Gaddock Teegs did a lot of work this game too, since I never saw any removal and he started both games with one in hand. Boarding was -4 Chalice, -1 JTMS, +2 Dimir Charm, +2 Infest, +1 In the Eye of Chaos.
1-1

Round 3: Stu with RUG
Game 1 here was probably the quickest of the day, as a turn 1 Chalice followed by turn 2 Jace prompted an immediate concession. I found only 1 colored source the entirety of game 2, which caused me to lose. Game 3 was pretty close, and had me on 8 having only an unflipped delver and him on 3 to my 2 Thopter tokens (1 with SotM). His upkeep comes around, and he flips the second Ancient Grudge of the game to flip his delver and remove my attackers. Other people have luck too, it seems. Boarding here was -3 JTMS, -1 Dimir Charm, -1 FoW, +2 Infest, +1 Perish, +1 EE, +1 In the Eye of Chaos.
1-2

Round 4: Pat with Rector Fit
These games were quick and noneventful. While this is normally an abysmal matchup (seriously, why does Pernicious Deed exist), my hands were god-tier. Game 1 was quickly taken down on the back of turn 2 Tezzeret followed by turn 3 Jace. I started with a Leyline for game 2, played Jace on turn 3, and Helmed him on turn 4. Boarding here was -4 Chalice, -2 Abyss, -1 Crucible of Worlds, +4 Leyline, +1 Helm, +2 Dimir Charm.
2-2

Round 5: Theresa with UWR Delver
Geist of Saint Traft is an awful card, especially when your opponent has a tendency to draw every copy in their deck. I kept a slower hand game 1, and was promptly steamrolled by turn 1 delver followed by turn 3 GoST. Her Lavamancers made quick work of any blockers I might have had. Game 2 was an interesting affair. I started out with a Leyline, and her first two Geists (along with her Delvers/Lavamancers/Snapcasters) were met with Infests. She was hellbent, ripped Ponder, then found and played her third Geist of the game. I draw a Diamond or something irrelevant, pass back, and drop from 11 to 5 on her attack. Naturally, I rip Transmute Artifact to turn a Signet into a Helm and take the game. Game 3 was a pretty one sided affair, but as we both drew a lot of blanks (3 Diamonds in a row at one point), it dragged on for awhile. Eventually I amassed enough mana to cast Tezzeret with Spell Pierce mana up through her Wastelands, but she had double Pierce followed by Extraction on the only planeswalker left in the deck. I ended up drawing a Foundry, which made only got to make two thopters (I had to play around the obvious Snapcaster > Extraction). A combination of thopters and, eventually, a Tar Pit took her from 15 to 5 while I was stuck on 12, but turn 5 rolled around and tied us.

Infest and Dimir Charm were nuts all day, especially Infest. I almost want to add a third copy of this card to my board, as it usually netted me a three-for-one every time I cast it. Dimir Charm was similarly awesome, but I've been preaching that card for a while now. Future changes will probably be finding some way to go to 60 cards from 61, but there really weren't any underperforming cards in my deck.

[Ellomdian]

I really wish there was a way to make all of these 1-of Legends enchantments colorless to make them work better with Tezz...

I just don't like missing with Tezz at all, and I don't really like lowering the artifact count in the deck to slide in "cute" cards. I also don't like being more susceptible to early disruption of mana, but most of the RUG players I practice with know that you should counter a Mox diamond if you are on a Wasteland plan.

Then again, I picked up a pair of Nether Voids this weekend, mwhahahahahahaha!

[AmishLuvah]

Slightly changed list.


4x Baleful Strix
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
2x Transmute Artifact
1x The Abyss
1x Damnation
2x Dimir Charm
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Trading Post
3x Talisman of Dominance
3x Dimir Signet
4x Force of Will

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Polluted Delta
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
1x Academy Ruins
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
1x Dimir Charm
3x Lodestone Golem
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Notion Thief
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Perish
3x Engineered Plague
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb


The addition of the other Tezz adds a little more flexibility to the deck. Another search, a little more value out of artifacts that tap for something and an easily reachable (and game ending) ultimate has to count for something. I was also thinking about trying out some Contagion Clasps. They probably won't be good enough to use but i do like the idea of dropping a Tezz and immediately using his ultimate.

[Higgs]

This deck looks incredibly fun in the vacuum but I'm not sure if I'd want to play it in a meta where people are playing various Deathrite Shamans (mostly BUG) and Show&Tell decks and most budget players are bringing things like Burn and Goblins. How do you guys see it in the current meta?

[kingtk3]

This deck looks incredibly fun in the vacuum but I'm not sure if I'd want to play it in a meta where people are playing various Deathrite Shamans (mostly BUG) and Show&Tell decks and most budget players are bringing things like Burn and Goblins. How do you guys see it in the current meta?

Chalice of the void -> burn

mass removal (damnation, bridge, explosive...) -> goblin

discard + counter (fow, flusterstorm, dimir charm) -> S&T

BUG is a grindy matchup where you have to play tight, but if you manage to resolve foundry+sword you're in good shape.

[Higgs]

If you are going with card by card analysis I have a few counter points.

Sulfuric Vortex + PoP + Fireblast > Chalice
Goblins' mana curve is all over the place so engineered explosives isn't relevant. Maybe you mean engineered plague? Also they play artifact removal, so bridge can't really be a key piece here.
S&T also has opposing counters, defense grid, blood moon etc. etc.

The way matchups go is slightly different than how they look on paper so I wanted to ask players about their experiences pushing this deck.

[Undomian]

If you are going with card by card analysis I have a few counter points.

Sulfuric Vortex + PoP + Fireblast > Chalice
Goblins' mana curve is all over the place so engineered explosives isn't relevant. Maybe you mean engineered plague? Also they play artifact removal, so bridge can't really be a key piece here.
S&T also has opposing counters, defense grid, blood moon etc. etc.

The way matchups go is slightly different than how they look on paper so I wanted to ask players about their experiences pushing this deck.

BUG: This matchup is pretty even. While we will have some trouble with their multi-Goyf and discard heavy draws, they will similarly have a lot of trouble with early 5/5s and an unanswered Thopter Foundry. Chalice for 1 is basically only good on the play, but it does have some lategame application on 0 where we can play it the turn before a Visions resolves. One of the biggest issues we can have in this matchup is an unanswered Liliana, as we don't have very many ways to actually kill it if it resolves unless we're already winning. If you're running a build utilizing the Abyss, that card is key here, as they are often unable to play enough creatures to offset it. It will eventually leave them with only their Shardless Agents, and significantly reduce the capabilities of their Deathrite Shamans. I would recommend cutting Chalice and some number of FoW postboard for stuff like Infest/Damnation/Perish/etc to make your Abysses even more backbreaking.

Burn: This matchup will be very one sided every time; usually in our favor, but not always. Mulling to Chalice is important. It is a huge beating, shutting off something like 16-20 cards in their deck. PoP is nullified by the fact that we can just Fetch our basics and play out our artifact mana. While assembling Thopters will basically win you the game on the spot, we can usually 'win' by threatening an early but nonlethal Tezz ult. Putting him to 4 will either make them waste a card to put him to 1, or allow us to ult for 8-10 to put ourselves out of range. As much as you might want to take out FoW in this matchup, it is a necessity. Only Vortex NEEDS to be countered, but countering a Guide (seriously, do not be afraid to Force this thing if you don't have a way to stop it. It will often do more damage than any other spell in their deck if they play it on turn 1) or Fireblast is sometimes necessary. If you have LSG in your sideboard, this is the matchup where you want it. We don't need to grind with the Abyss and such here, so take out those sorts of cards postboard. If we end up with the slower hands that this deck sometimes gives us, we are most likely dead.

Goblins: This is an awful, awful matchup. If your meta is filled with this deck, I would strongly consider playing something else. Chalice is blanked by their Caverns, and a single point of Lackey damage can often spell the end of the game. They have enough CA to keep playing even after a sweeper, and Abyss is basically straight awful. Ensnaring Bridge doesn't do much at all against their 1 power team either. Cut Chalice and some number of Force, and bring in every Dimir Charm and sweeper in your 75.

Show and Tell: This matchup is as good as you want it to be, as dedicated sideboard slots are the key to winning here. Non-EtI variants are a little better for us due to maindeck Bridge, but the EtI decks are certainly beatable postboard. If this deck is running rampant in your meta as it is in mine, put some number of Venser, Shaper Savant in your board. Dimir Charm is also very good here, providing extra hard countermagic against that particular spell. Chalice is reasonable here, but only if they keep a hand reliant on manipulation. LSG and Trinisphere are obviously the absolute nuts against this deck, especially Trinisphere, if we can protect them. We will usually have enough mana to get around Defense Grid thanks to our sol lands and artifact ramp, and that same artifact mana is a pretty good trump to Blood Moon. Obviously, though, their nut draws trump anything we can do.

[Madmankevinx]

Hmmm.... I haven't lost to goblins yet. The abyss is actually quite good and a sideboarded Torpor Orb and engineered plagues are stellar. You need a Torpor Orb in the board folks. It's ok against deathblade/stoneblade decks too(blanks v clique, stoneforge, snapcaster effects). Thopter/sword shouldn't take long to get going and its GG for poor gobos.

[Jay_Gatz]

Torpor Orb stops the thopter combo.

[Madmankevinx]

Yeah I wrote that a little jumbled. I mean with the Thopter sword combo active, gobos is easily winnable. I didn't mean with a torpor orb out at the same time. Orb really makes gobos matchup manageable.

[Ellomdian]

Hmmm.... I haven't lost to goblins yet. The abyss is actually quite good and a sideboarded Torpor Orb and engineered plagues are stellar. You need a Torpor Orb in the board folks. It's ok against deathblade/stoneblade decks too(blanks v clique, stoneforge, snapcaster effects). Thopter/sword shouldn't take long to get going and its GG for poor gobos.

If those were actually the things we were losing to in Deathblade, I can see Torpor Orb being a card. But the biggest problems are still related to the card advantage the deck generates - Lingering souls and Deathrite are the real enemy. Added to the fact that right now, our primary win-con is based on thropter-sword.

I gave a pretty exhaustive list of "I hate gobbos!" cards a while back if you are having that many issues. Reliably getting an orb into play before matron/ringleader hits is hard, especially if you are trying to stem a tide of already advancing green men.

[Madmankevinx]

The deck can manage a turn 2 Torpor Orb quite easily and even by turn 3 that's usually enough to slow Goblins down long enough to get a couple 5/5 blockers out before an ultimate Tezzeret ability ends things. Obviously things need to go right, but that burden is on them as well so I usually don't worry about it. Personally I love Orb against deathblade as it usually gets followed up by a cursed totem or Pithing Needle to buy the time needed for an ultimate from Tezz. That being said...I still feel that our matchup against blade is rough without a strong sideboard presence aimed specifically at their deck.

[Ellomdian]

The deck can manage a turn 2 Torpor Orb quite easily and even by turn 3 that's usually enough to slow Goblins down long enough to get a couple 5/5 blockers out before an ultimate Tezzeret ability ends things. Obviously things need to go right, but that burden is on them as well so I usually don't worry about it. Personally I love Orb against deathblade as it usually gets followed up by a cursed totem or Pithing Needle to buy the time needed for an ultimate from Tezz. That being said...I still feel that our matchup against blade is rough without a strong sideboard presence aimed specifically at their deck.

So you are advocating prioritizing Orb against gobbos over anything else? My problem isn't getting the orb in play early, it's doing so without significantly affecting your own development. Orb not only wrecks your endgame if you are on the thopter-sword plan, it makes Baleful Strix bad. And if you are getting a "couple" of 5/5 blockers on the board, you are not ulting Tezz any time soon, especially if you have the Orb in play still to deal with.

Cursed totem is another matter entirely. So now, against Deathblade, we have a Topor Orb and either a Needle (narrow) or Totem on the board to stop what exactly? Stoneforge? At the cost of not being able to combo them out now. How are you protecting Tezz from Lingering tokens or Geist?

If you want to beat Stoneblade (or Deathblade) you need to outdraw them. Don't mindlessly give them value from your fetches if you can avoid it. Don't try to beat them by answering their threats, beat them by posing better threats of your own. T2 Jace or Tezz is still your best line. Chalice for 1 is still a strong tempo play. TfK is underrated advantage.

[Madmankevinx]

It just dawned on me that the new rule changes are really going to give this deck a boost. Chaining Tezzeret abilities to make a bunch of 5/5's seems amazing not to mention all the Jace stuff we've all been reading about. I usually just focus on winning via Tezzeret ultimate with this deck, but the 5/5's route actually may have to be my new main focus for a win con! What do you all think?

And regarding the last post: Torpor Orb stops not just Stoneforge, but Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique as well. That is 7-9 of their attacking threats depending on the build. Cursed totem stops their deathrites with is a very good play. Deathrite is too good to let stay active. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel warm and cozy inside if I have a Torpor Orb out against Deathblade/Stoneblade decks.

[AmishLuvah]

I just can't let myself go the Torpor Orb route. Now Cursed Totem on the other hand, that has some possibilities. My worst match ups so far has been Stone Blade and Goblins and that hits problems in both decks plus other things like Maverick and even anything that plays Griselbrand.

[kingtk3]

I just can't let myself go the Torpor Orb route. Now Cursed Totem on the other hand, that has some possibilities. My worst match ups so far has been Stone Blade and Goblins and that hits problems in both decks plus other things like Maverick and even anything that plays Griselbrand.

Cursed totem has more application than torpor orb and doesn't interfere with the topther combo. If you have trouble with maverick totem surely helps.

[Avez]

What cards should have in the sideboard against Omnishow running Laboratory Maniac as a wincon? Arcane Laboratory?

[Darkenslight]

What cards should have in the sideboard against Omnishow running Laboratory Maniac as a wincon? Arcane Laboratory?

Wipe Away would be arguably more relevant, giving you the flexibility to bounce the LabMan or the All-Seeing Eye.

[kingtk3]

I think that if enter the infinite resolves the game is lost: if you bounce labman in response to a draw they can counter their draw, recast labman and win.

I would focus on prevent them from casting enter the infinite and deny omniscence with chalice of the void, trinisphere, lodestone golem, discard and counters (i'm a big fan of dimir charm because is very good in this matchup too).

[Undomian]

I play 3 Venser, Shaper Savant in my SB specifically for that matchup.

[Memnoch]

I play 3 Venser, Shaper Savant in my SB specifically for that matchup.

What's the proper way to use Venser when playing against S&T (as far as timing, etc)?

[Undomian]

What's the proper way to use Venser when playing against S&T (as far as timing, etc)?

Keep in mind that the card is far from perfect, but S&T has too many angles of attack to fight against. Against Omnitell, I usually just allow the Show to resolve (assuming no Dimir Charm in hand if you play that) and put it in that way. If they put in either Halls or Omni, the Venser trigger will force them to have Cunning Wish into their Stifle/Trickbind, so you'll want to put up a fight over their Wish if they have S&T+Target+Wish/Intuition (for Wish) rather than S&T+Target+EtI. Usually a hand sculpted for Wish on their end will be a little weaker than the alternative and contain less countermagic, so with any luck you can win the counterwar. There are a lot of what-ifs here, but I feel that Venser is the best uncounterable answer to this deck. Do note the emphasis on uncounterable, though; there ARE better answers in LSG/Trinisphere that you could still potentially win an early counter war over. Also note that Venser is godawful if your opponent is on Sneak & Show and puts a Griselbrand or Sneak Attack into play.

Venser is a lot of hoping that they just don't have it all, but it works out well enough most of the time.

[Memnoch]

Keep in mind that the card is far from perfect, but S&T has too many angles of attack to fight against. Against Omnitell, I usually just allow the Show to resolve (assuming no Dimir Charm in hand if you play that) and put it in that way. If they put in either Halls or Omni, the Venser trigger will force them to have Cunning Wish into their Stifle/Trickbind, so you'll want to put up a fight over their Wish if they have S&T+Target+Wish/Intuition (for Wish) rather than S&T+Target+EtI. Usually a hand sculpted for Wish on their end will be a little weaker than the alternative and contain less countermagic, so with any luck you can win the counterwar. There are a lot of what-ifs here, but I feel that Venser is the best uncounterable answer to this deck. Do note the emphasis on uncounterable, though; there ARE better answers in LSG/Trinisphere that you could still potentially win an early counter war over. Also note that Venser is godawful if your opponent is on Sneak & Show and puts a Griselbrand or Sneak Attack into play.

Venser is a lot of hoping that they just don't have it all, but it works out well enough most of the time.

Awesome. Thank you for that sir.

[Ellomdian]

What cards should have in the sideboard against Omnishow running Laboratory Maniac as a wincon? Arcane Laboratory?

Also of note: Early Sphere tricks can really punish that deck. With the rise in popularity of Omnitell variants, I am leaning on the Lodestone more than ever. Not only does it slow down bullsh*t cantripping, it doesn't become completely irrelevant when the Omniscience resolves. I would jump in whole-hog with Sphere of Resistance as well, but the more prison-y I try to play the deck, the harder it seems to actually win. It is nice to make FoW and Pact cost more :)

I also REALLLLY like Trinisphere, but I haven't hit enough Omni to justify the slots over Duress/Thoughtseize. At some point I might just try a Workshop-esque build with Diamonds, but I don't know how I am going to keep cards in my hand.

[Arianrhod]

I've been getting -destroyed- by this 403 error issue, but I've finally got a computer that lets me access the Source for more than a few minutes. As such, I figured I'd finally be able to link to my article that I wrote on this deck, located here: http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/page.php?8

I'm not sure that it necessarily has a lot to add to the discussion, although I did do a few things differently when setting up the list that may be of interest.

[Ellomdian]

I'm not sure that it necessarily has a lot to add to the discussion, although I did do a few things differently when setting up the list that may be of interest.

I LOVE Guardian Beast. I had completely forgotten about this guy until GP Kansas City. While he is slow to come down, he is a great 2-of in the SB for BUG (especially with a ton of Shardless popping up post-invitational.)

I still don't like Crucible/Wasteland - your mana base is already fragile and I don't even like Academy Ruins (but I still play it...) - but you make the most of it with your MD Trinisphere and Intuition/Ruins. Also "The Sol lands, the 4 Seas, the 4 Deltas, and the Ruins are all inviolate." I feel that you may be too generous to 4 deltas. Given how many of your lands can't be fetched in the first place, you could drop a Delta for a Shore.

Trading post is neat, but I think it may be too slow for what it accomplishes. I don't think you have enough creatures, and if you are just sacking Strix for value, you are likely going to want to SB them out anyways.

Always good to see someone with a different take - especially when they have sweet, sweet cards in their brew :)

[Ashahura]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the thread and semi-new to the archetype. I spent a fair amount of time last year playing with David Gearheart's Esper-coloured version of this deck. Essentially, it gives up the mana rocks to splash white for spot removal, enlightened tutor, and a handful of white spells including O-Ring and Humility.

I haven't had much time to play it since before RTR came out, and I've recently taken some time to theorize about how I would like to change the deck. Anyway, one problem that both my list and the UB list faces is Abrupt Decay on the thopter/sword combo. I saw the recent discussion about Guardian Beast, and was wondering if anyone's tried or thought about trying Spellskite as a cheaper (mana cost) alternative? Obviously it doesn't survive multiple abrupt decays, but my thinking is that if we can get even 1-2 turns of thopter/sword activations that should be more than enough time to wrap up the game. Also, as a 4 toughness wall, it does an excellent job of just standing in the way of lots of early aggression.

Thoughts?

[Sparkii]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the thread and semi-new to the archetype. I spent a fair amount of time last year playing with David Gearheart's Esper-coloured version of this deck. Essentially, it gives up the mana rocks to splash white for spot removal, enlightened tutor, and a handful of white spells including O-Ring and Humility.

I haven't had much time to play it since before RTR came out, and I've recently taken some time to theorize about how I would like to change the deck. Anyway, one problem that both my list and the UB list faces is Abrupt Decay on the thopter/sword combo. I saw the recent discussion about Guardian Beast, and was wondering if anyone's tried or thought about trying Spellskite as a cheaper (mana cost) alternative? Obviously it doesn't survive multiple abrupt decays, but my thinking is that if we can get even 1-2 turns of thopter/sword activations that should be more than enough time to wrap up the game. Also, as a 4 toughness wall, it does an excellent job of just standing in the way of lots of early aggression.

Thoughts?

First post for me here :)

Anyways, Guardian Beast is a decent pick, I've been running two misdirection in the board and it's been working well. I've more than once redirected an ancient grudge on a chalice to a mana rock and had the other player scoop it up.

[Ellomdian]

First post for me here :)

Anyways, Guardian Beast is a decent pick, I've been running two misdirection in the board and it's been working well. I've more than once redirected an ancient grudge on a chalice to a mana rock and had the other player scoop it up.

I generally play MD for the BUG match - there are always so many good targets for what they are trying to do...

The big issue is overcoming the card disadvantage. Misdirecting a Hymn or Visions is only a card up.

[H]

I've been getting -destroyed- by this 403 error issue, but I've finally got a computer that lets me access the Source for more than a few minutes. As such, I figured I'd finally be able to link to my article that I wrote on this deck, located here: http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/page.php?8

I'm not sure that it necessarily has a lot to add to the discussion, although I did do a few things differently when setting up the list that may be of interest.

Thanks for this article, I decided to play this deck, and more specifically your build, for a "Win an FTV" event on Saturday. I knew the event would be small, but it was even smaller than we imagined.

In the end, I was lucky to top 4, as a friend of mine scooped me into the top 4, as he was undefeated.

I proceeded to have revenge on Mono-Red Burn, winning in 3 after losing in three to the same person in the Swiss. I then took down ANT in the final to win my 3rd FTV 20, with the fourth to come in trade from a friend of mine.

Ultimately the Wastelands were not particularly valuable, I don't recall even wasting anyone all day (except myself, in the face of a Price of Progress), 3 basics were great though. I am on the fence, I think they are good enough to keep, so I need to test them more.

Trading post was amazing, when I finally managed to get it on the board while still at a reasonable life total. In one game it saved me from taking 3 from a Smash to Smithereens and drawing me a card. It also gained 8 life in another game and I ended up winning at 4 life.

I was unimpressed with Thirst For Knowledge, but I am unsure what else I would want to run in it's place. I think I will keep testing Thirst and see how it does going forward. I am not keen on Intuition in that spot, it doesn't give me the card advantage I think I am looking for in that spot.

I changed the board, I was expecting Elves, so I had some Perishes and also I including Lodestone Golem (two copies). He was great in my top 4 matches, proving more than enough clock and just enough disruption to get me there. I think at least 2 copies should be in most builds, as he is seriously a house. I also ran Trinisphere in the main (one copy), I really did not want to lose to combo, I really like 1 in there, even on second turn, it's just too good not to have (Transmuting a mana rock into a Trini is just great).

[Undomian]

I took down a tournament for a Sea today with this:


4 Baleful Strix
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 The Abyss
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

2 Lodestone Golem
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Cursed Totem
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Guardian Beast
2 Infest
1 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives

R1: Taylor with Dredge (1-2)
R2: Todd with Omnitell (2-1)
R3: Nick with Goblins (0-2)
R4: Logan with Shardless Bug (2-0)
R5: Arbob with Elves! (2-0)

I barely squeaked into top 8 in 8th place, but then ended up with awesome pairings until the finals:

T8R1: Dylan with Miracles (2-1)
T8R2: David with Miracles (2-1)
T8R3: Max with Omnitell (2-1)

I pulled the win out of Omnitell by the skin of my teeth. In G2, I kept a hand that was something like Academy Ruins, Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Baleful Strix, Tezzeret, announced that I was "yolo-keeping" my hand (after the thorough 2x Force backup hand that he had on his mull to 6 game 1) and drew 3 lands consecutively to win the game. Game 3 I stayed a turn ahead of him, ending with a board state of Jace, Trinisphere, 2 LSG, Chalice on 3 to win the tournament and get myself a new Sea. I was extremely happy with my sideboard, as I actually sided every card at some point for once. The only real disappointment was with Guardian Beast, who I never drew and who would have never had time to do any work with the thorough beating I gave my Shardless opponent (assembled Crucible+Wastelands very early both games). I might replace that with either a second Trinisphere or a third LSG depending on what I see in the room. I'd also love to find a spot for a Trinisphere main, but as I'm already on 61 cards I'm not sure what to take out.

[Sparkii]

I took down a tournament for a Sea today with this:


4 Baleful Strix
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 The Abyss
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

2 Lodestone Golem
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Cursed Totem
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Guardian Beast
2 Infest
1 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives

R1: Taylor with Dredge (1-2)
R2: Todd with Omnitell (2-1)
R3: Nick with Goblins (0-2)
R4: Logan with Shardless Bug (2-0)
R5: Arbob with Elves! (2-0)

I barely squeaked into top 8 in 8th place, but then ended up with awesome pairings until the finals:

T8R1: Dylan with Miracles (2-1)
T8R2: David with Miracles (2-1)
T8R3: Max with Omnitell (2-1)

I pulled the win out of Omnitell by the skin of my teeth. In G2, I kept a hand that was something like Academy Ruins, Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Baleful Strix, Tezzeret, announced that I was "yolo-keeping" my hand (after the thorough 2x Force backup hand that he had on his mull to 6 game 1) and drew 3 lands consecutively to win the game. Game 3 I stayed a turn ahead of him, ending with a board state of Jace, Trinisphere, 2 LSG, Chalice on 3 to win the tournament and get myself a new Sea. I was extremely happy with my sideboard, as I actually sided every card at some point for once. The only real disappointment was with Guardian Beast, who I never drew and who would have never had time to do any work with the thorough beating I gave my Shardless opponent (assembled Crucible+Wastelands very early both games). I might replace that with either a second Trinisphere or a third LSG depending on what I see in the room. I'd also love to find a spot for a Trinisphere main, but as I'm already on 61 cards I'm not sure what to take out.

Mox Diamond + Crucible seems interesting. With only 1 crucible, did you find yourself transmuting for it a lot? By cutting talismans did you ever find yourself transmuting something you didn't want to?

[Undomian]

Mox Diamond + Crucible seems interesting. With only 1 crucible, did you find yourself transmuting for it a lot? By cutting talismans did you ever find yourself transmuting something you didn't want to?

I find myself transmuting for Crucible a lot not because of its interaction with Mox Diamond (though that is a definite plus), but rather because recurring Wastelands is stupidly good. I never really found myself transmuting something I would rather not transmute away because of the lack of Talismans. Usually I end up transmuting a Baleful Strix or one of the Signets after I've stabilized my mana, or sometimes even transmuting an extra Chalice rotting in my hand into something that would otherwise win me the game even if it does mean that I two-for-one myself.

[TonyRo]

I'm considering investing in this deck for SCG Cleveland coming up in two weeks or so. I notice the discussion has died down a bit on this deck - are people finding it to struggle in the current metagame? Are there any changes from Chris Anderson's SCG STL that people have found to be definite improvements so far? I have been testing the list on MODO for a week or so and quite like it. Thanks!

[Undomian]

I'm considering investing in this deck for SCG Cleveland coming up in two weeks or so. I notice the discussion has died down a bit on this deck - are people finding it to struggle in the current metagame? Are there any changes from Chris Anderson's SCG STL that people have found to be definite improvements so far? I have been testing the list on MODO for a week or so and quite like it. Thanks!

The deck is still fine in my opinion (I'm still pushing it and plan to keep doing so at the GP later this year), people probably just don't play it much because it costs just as much as T1 legacy decks that have better average performance rates.

[Undomian]

Lost in the top 4 of a small GPT today. Deck was the same as before but with a few small SB changes. In the swiss, I beat Miracles (2-0), 4C Bant (I think?)(2-0), and Sneak & Show (2-1) and had a loss to Goblins (0-2). The Gobbos match went as it usually does, as he crushed me in 2 games even after I Infested him twice in G2. Went into top 4 as first seed, and lost to Miracles in 2 games due to some bad draws on my part and some great draws/play on his part (got blown out by StP in G2 because I expected him to side it out). In G1 of the Miracles match, I kept something to the effect of Swamp, Fetch, City, Diamond, Abyss, Bridge, and Force in game 1, and decided to mull it because it didn't really do anything against his deck. I got punished for this badly when I mulled into oblivion and quickly lost to a resolved Elspeth. Game 2 he plowed my CTP that would have killed his Jace, EE'd + Terminus'd my Thopter plan, and had the Force to get my second Foundry as his Jace got me. The deck is definitely still viable, and I think I could have taken down at least the Miracles player with some tighter play on my part. Not sure how I would have fared against the S&S player again, though, as that's almost as bad as Goblins in terms of matchup percentages IMO.

[TonyRo]

I am playing something very close to Chris Anderson's list with a slightly different SB, and I'm curious - how is the RUG matchup for everyone else? Either I'm making terrible keeps, running up against God draws, or I'm sideboarding terribly, because I'm losing almost all of them. The fundamental issues seem to be that we're weak to Wasteland, our PWs are sort of soft to an early board presence, and we have a bunch of do-nothing cards that they can allow to simply resolve, allowing some "virtual" card advantage - they can focus on countering stuff like Bridge, Transmute Artifact, or artifact sweepers. Here is my list and SB - how would you board?

Lands (22)
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (4)
4 Baleful Strix

Planeswalkers (8)
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Other Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Dimir Charm

Sideboard (15)
2 Duress
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Damnation
1 Perish
1 Trinisphere
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Dimir Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague

So how do you board against RUG with the above? Do you take out the Force Wills because of the card disadvantage and Daze/Spell Pierce, or do you keep them in try and stave off the early creatures or defend a Chalice on 1? Do you bring in the Lodestone Golems? Is Jace bad? Tormod's Crypt to shrink Goose (maybe Goyf)?

In a vacuum, I think I'd want the Meekstone, the Perish, and both Damnations. I'd be somewhat certain that I'd want the Duress's to fight their cheap counterspells. I'd be on the fence about Tormod's Crypt, Dimir Charm, and the Lodestone Golems. I'd probably try +2 Duress, +1 Meekstone, +1 Perish, +2 Damnation, -4 Force of Will -1 Dimir Charm -1 Jace. Dimir Charm only hits unflipped Delvers, and seems a little loose. Thoughts?

[Sisyphos]

I think I'd add Lodestones before I'd add Duress. The ability of Lodestone is very relevant and they need a Bolt or it's a very good wall against Goyf/Goose. Also Trinisphere has served me well. It can be even better than Chalice because it "stops" FoW and Daze too.

I do not like Damnations against RUG very much. Double Black makes it slow against Stifle and Wasteland, especially if you have to play around taxing counters. A good RUG player will never play more than two creatures max, limiting the value. I think The Abyss is better in that match up if you want to compare 4 drop creature mass removal. On the other hand I lost to 2 1/1 Geese after starting the game with T0 Leyline, T2 The Abyss, so it's not perfect either. A second Ratchet Bomb might also be something to consider.

If they have a fast creature, some mana disruption and a couple of counters, it's definitely a deck you can easily loose to, but then again so do most other decks.

[Manroe]

Hey guys, this is currently the only deck I own, and I run a pretty stock list. I don't have the cash to make a huge investment in anything right now and I only get a chance to play magic once a week. I play legacy every Tuesday (I am still learning the deck, I admit that), but I can not seem to do anything right. My meta is two burn decks, dredge, reanimator, maverick and 2 elves decks. Anyone have some advice? I'm not a bad player, but I think I have won about 2 out of my last 14 matches. Just has been a struggle.

FYI My SB is as follows:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Notion Thief
2 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Engineered Plague
1 Perish

[H]

Without knowing your maindeck, it's almost impossible to figure out what might be going on.

Having played the matchup many times, this deck vs Burn is terrible. Unless you get the nuts and can lock them out completely, or can establish a very early Thopter/Sword combo, you will assuredly lose.

[kingtk3]

Hey guys, this is currently the only deck I own, and I run a pretty stock list. I don't have the cash to make a huge investment in anything right now and I only get a chance to play magic once a week. I play legacy every Tuesday (I am still learning the deck, I admit that), but I can not seem to do anything right. My meta is two burn decks, dredge, reanimator, maverick and 2 elves decks. Anyone have some advice? I'm not a bad player, but I think I have won about 2 out of my last 14 matches. Just has been a struggle.

FYI My SB is as follows:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Notion Thief
2 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Engineered Plague
1 Perish

I agree with ElricTheWhiteWolf. However given your meta you can easily drop the notion thief from the side alongside with the golems (too slow for your combo matchups) and the cursed totem (good only against maverick since elves can Natural Order for the win): I would add 3 chill and another perish.
I would also swap a plague for a night of souls' betrayal since its out of abrupt decay range.

[Undomian]

So, has anyone else seen this?



Toxic Deluge
2B, Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast Toxic Deluge, pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.


I'm currently playing some number of Infest in my SB, and Deluge is basically a straight upgrade to that. It is easier to cast (especially early against something like a Lackey), and you can get larger creatures with it as well. There is also that new white removal spell, but the double white requirement is pretty rough.

[Sisyphos]

I've seen it and was planning to get some as soon as possible for testing at least in the board, possible (depending on meta after Mini-Progenitus) even in the maindeck.

Things I didn't like about our previous unconditional (aka not Perish, Ratchet Bomb) sweeper options were: getting stopped by Gaddock (Damnation, The Abyss) or having BB in their casting cost (Damnation, Infect), making them disproportionally slow with the Sol-land-manabase. This solves both of those problems. With Thopter/Sword, Tezz-ult and Wurmcoil we have enough lifegain to support the extra cost.

As for splashing white: There are definitely some nice things I still miss from the old UWB-Thopter/Sword lists with E.Tutor and Mox Opal that seem like an earlier version of what this deck has become. Especially E.Tutor adding a tutor for enchantments like The Abyss or In the Eye of Chaos to name only two. But the mana base gets soooo fragile adding another color. Although I have to say your list seems like a better starting point with the switch from 6 mana rocks to Mox Diamonds. I can't see an Uwb list supporting Wasteland though. And I don't see the spoiled card being powerful enough to construct the mana base in a way that it can reliably support not only a small white splash but XWW.

[Manroe]

Without knowing your maindeck, it's almost impossible to figure out what might be going on.

Having played the matchup many times, this deck vs Burn is terrible. Unless you get the nuts and can lock them out completely, or can establish a very early Thopter/Sword combo, you will assuredly lose.

Here is the full list as I have been playing it:
Main Deck:
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dimir Signet
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Damnation
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Cursed Totem
2 Trinisphere
1 Notion Thief
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Ratchet Bomb

[Undomian]

As we come up on the GP, I've been thinking more and more about how I'd like to rework my sideboard. Currently, I'm playing something like this:


4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinisphere
1 Dimir Charm
1 Abrupt Decay *

* A note on Abrupt Decay - I've been playing an off-color dual (currently Tropical Island) in my list for awhile combined with Mox Diamonds in order to put EE on 3, and its been absolutely phenomenal. I imagine that it will be even better against the True-Name Nemesis decks I expect to see at DC. As an alternative answer to problematic permanents, I've been wanting to play Decay in the board.

With the resurgence of Reanimator and the amount of Dredge and such I expect to see (it is a cheap deck that isn't currently being hated on, so I'm thinking it is going to be more prominent than usual), I don't feel comfortable taking out Leyline. It is also reasonable as a direct sub for Thopter/Sword in my MD against Storm. Helm itself is one of the looser slots in my current configuration, but I like the upside of playing it for the occasional free win. It is also nice to board it in against decks that will probably board in RiP (Miracles) to counter Thopters for those same free wins.

Against any kind of aggressive deck, my current plan is to bring in the Deluges, the EE, the Dimir Charm, and the Decay. For combo, LSGs, Trinisphere, and the Charm. I also usually bring in EE in these matchups if I'm expecting to see Empty the Warrens.

I feel that the flex slots here are Helm, the third Deluge, and the Dimir Charm. While I am somewhat satisfied with the current configuration, I have thought about bringing in some combination of a second Decay and/or a Pithing Needle, though I'm not 100% on that. Thoughts?

[Sisyphos]

I've been changing my list a bit also, here's what I'm currently testing:

3 trinisphere
2 wurmcoil engine
4 baleful strix
4 lodestone golem
1 ratchet bomb
1 tezzeret, the seeker
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
4 chalice of the void
2 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
2 transmute artifact
2 dimir signet
4 talisman of dominance
1 seat of the synod
1 island
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
1 academy ruins
3 darkslick shores

board
2 toxix deluge
4 leyline of the void
2 ensnaring bridge
1 ratchet bomb
1 helm of obedience
1 phyrexian revoker
4 force of will

The theory is: don't use FoW as protection for your bombs, just play more bombs (or cards that prevent the opponent from playing the game). Have not gotten enough testing in to judge if it is really better though. The deck can also switch to aggro really fast between Tezz, AoB, Lodestones and Wurmcoil. Don't like that I'm down to one sweeper in the main I have to admit, but Lodestone, Chalice and Trini so far have been quite good at buying time against a lot of decks. FoW is in the board to protect against fast combo. I went up to 4 City+Tombs to up the chance of getting 4 mana on turn two, might even try the third Signet.

Big Tezz has been quite nice so far I have to admit. Wanted to try him for quite a while. Getting the mana is not that hard and most of the time it is better then the third Transmute, even if the +1 ability is not used to its maximum potential in this deck.

As for boarding, I'm in the same boat as Undomian. Last local tournament had three Dredge decks, a Reanimator and Lands, making Leyline very nice at the moment. As long as I'm playing Leylines, I will always go for the misers Helm. Too good at stealing random games, especially against opponents boarding in Rest in Peace to stop Thopter-Combo and walking into Transmute->Helm. Ensnaring Bridges are a nod to Sneak and Show, which has been putting up quite a showing and that deck has been giving me a few problems in the past.

[Undomian]

I've considered the Seeker for awhile, but was always put off by the fact that I'd be running 5 Tezzeret in my deck if I did so. Have you ended up with more instances of extra copies of Tezzeret sitting in your hand with that inclusion, or has it not really come up?

Also, if anyone missed it, Jody Keith got 16th at the latest SCG with this:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60565

[Sisyphos]

As I said, I have not played the list as much as I'd like, so maybe I was just lucky so far, but I did not notice a significant increase in dead draws with 5 Tezzerets. But I have to admit, I use planeswalkers quite aggressively, especially as I wanted the list to be more aggressive and a bit Stompy-like compared to your list, so I use the minus ability on Tezz, AoB, probably more often than average players. Without FoW in the maindeck, it is also reasonably probable that they will be able to counter or Bolt your first Tezzeret, so back-ups are live again. With the new rules concerning planeswalkers, the second or third one are never completely dead, which helps a lot.

I also had a situation come up against a player running Cabal Therapy. He knew I had both Tezzerets, but did not know how many or if I boarded one of them out. He know both of them would win me the game. He choose the one not in my hand. Might not come up very often, but there are situations where it helps to have different threats.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Hey guys, this is currently the only deck I own, and I run a pretty stock list. I don't have the cash to make a huge investment in anything right now and I only get a chance to play magic once a week. I play legacy every Tuesday (I am still learning the deck, I admit that), but I can not seem to do anything right. My meta is two burn decks, dredge, reanimator, maverick and 2 elves decks. Anyone have some advice? I'm not a bad player, but I think I have won about 2 out of my last 14 matches. Just has been a struggle.

FYI My SB is as follows:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Notion Thief
2 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Engineered Plague
1 Perish


Without knowing your maindeck, it's almost impossible to figure out what might be going on.

Having played the matchup many times, this deck vs Burn is terrible. Unless you get the nuts and can lock them out completely, or can establish a very early Thopter/Sword combo, you will assuredly lose.

Is UB Tezz really that bad against Burn? Doesn't Chalice on 1 just shut them out pre-board? A card you could consider for the board is Witchbane Orb, as it shuts off burn spells, Tendrils of Agony, etc.

[Koby]

Is UB Tezz really that bad against Burn? Doesn't Chalice on 1 just shut them out pre-board? A card you could consider for the board is Witchbane Orb, as it shuts off burn spells, Tendrils of Agony, etc.

Ancient Tomb, non-basic mana base ensures their clock is faster.
An early Goblin Guide is also hard to deal with.
Bolt are flying left and right while you're trying to set up.

Burn is one of those decks that punish decks trying to play a longer game. Leaning heavily on Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere is one strategy here. Another is Sun Droplet in multiples.

[Sisyphos]

The last two games I played with the deck against Burn were at GP Strausbourg. They went something like this:
G1: Fast Chalice, followed by Thopter-Combo 1-2 turns later, followed by FoWing the Price of Progress that would have killed me twice, followed by gaining 5+ life per turn.
G2: Fast Trini, followed by Wurmcoil 2 turns later, followed by FoWing his Vortex which would have killed me because I was so low already due to Ancient Tombs, followed by gaining 6 life per turn.

So yeah, I won the round, but it is pretty much like everyone said. Bad matchup you should definitely not be expecting to win the majority of games in. You need multiple things happening in the right order in a deck with minimal (at least compared to other blue decks) manipulation of your draws. The deck has the tools to win against Burn, but even if you draw them, it is verrrry close and if you miss even once, to quote Jaya Ballard: "Yes, I think "toast" is an appropriate description." Sun Droplet and Witchbane Orb seem like good cards to increase your chances, but even they will need some back up from the rest of your draws. A local player has been running an Orb in his board, but mainly as a concession to Storm, which makes up a larger part of the field, at least around here.

If somebody is interested: VanMeter's article on SCG this week is covering the deck and he will probably be running it at GP:DC. Looking forward to see if he makes any changes to his list. The way he writes the article, I doubt he will change much, maybe adding Toxic Deluge like many have been doing.

[James]

@Sisyphos I really like your list and your theory. I think UB Tezz has two main viable options: (i) the control versión which has been heavily discussed and seems quite defined; and (ii) the stompy version which has not been explored so much.

Relating to the stompy version, and following your theory of playing more bombs instead of FoWs (which I think is fine) I would also cut the following:

- Baleful Strix: it is more oriented to control the aggro in the first turns and although card draw is excellent, it is not a turn 1 card and in turn 2 our priority should be to put a Lodestone Golem, a Trinisphere or a planeswalker in the battlefield as these are real bombs which required an immediate answer from our opponent.
- Thopter/sword combo: I think the combo is just a little bit too slow for a stompy version.
- Transmute artifact: if no thopter/sword combo is available and you don't want a toolbox because you prefer all your cards to be a bomb, i think transmute should also be cut.

These are 10 slots that may be used for more aggro or stompy style (i.e. Lotus Petal, Steel Hellkite, freaking cards like esperzoa, masticore or slash panther, etc) and the most important card: Toxic Deluge. I believe Toxic Deluge would be the perfect sweaper for us. 80% of the creatures of the meta have a toughness of 1 or 2 (including True Name Némesis if it sees heavy play). With no baleful in your maindeck, I would include 3 Toxic Deluge in my main with no doubt.

There are also some cards which I have certain doubts:

- Lodestone/Trinisphere: both are excellent cards but when you have a Trinishpehe in play, Lodestone is just a 5/3 (which is fine but not particularly amazing) so maybe I would reduce the number of Lodestone/Trinisphere and would include 3 copies of Tangle Wire which may allow you to establish a strong mana base for your planeswalker or your 6CC bombs.
- Chalice of the Void: is an excellent card against combo and RUG, but I think it is only really powerful on the play so I am not pretty sure if this should be more sideboard card.

Other than that I would like to explore the possibilty of including a red splash with Welder/Galvanic Blast/Blood Moon/REB and card advantage like Thrist for Knowledge or Faithless Looting and a set of Engineered Explosives but this is a completely different idea and deck.

[H]

Is UB Tezz really that bad against Burn? Doesn't Chalice on 1 just shut them out pre-board? A card you could consider for the board is Witchbane Orb, as it shuts off burn spells, Tendrils of Agony, etc.

Sure, but keep in mind this deck does not run Brainstorm, so there is no way to smooth out your draw, to dig for answers, all you have are your Transmute Artifacts, which require UU to cast. Sure, if you draw the nuts, they have little chance, but in reality their deck is actually more consistent then this one. Realize that most builds of this deck run less than 3 basic lands, so Price of Progress will kill you, it's just a matter of time. Chalice for 1 is fine and dandy as a speed bump, but if you have no other lock pieces, you will eventually lose, even Game 1.

You need a Chalice on 1 and 2 to have any real security in the match-up. Trinisphere will help, but it won't end their game. You need some sideboard help to really have an advantage in the match-up. Chill is a decent idea. I actually really liked the versatility that a Trading Post offered in the main, allowing me to gain life and in some cases avoid damage (like sacrificing an artifact targeted by a Smash to Smithereens to both draw a card and save myself from 3 damage). Don't be afraid to burn through Tezzerets, if you can gain some life, do it, since they have the reach to kill your walkers, you need to use them wisely to keep you alive. Witchbane Orb seems alright also, seeing as to how it can help in multiple match-ups, but again, Price can just kill you, so don't think a weak hand with an Orb will get you there. A few Goblin Guide hits and a Price can end your game easily.

I would say get a Trini in the main if you expect to see Burn. It can only help. Also, minimize the damage you do to yourself, so use Signets when you can, rather than Talismans.

[Ellomdian]

Glad to see CVM (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27329_Tezz-For-Prez.html) is looking at playing 8Tezz (err, 7Tezz apparently) this weekend at DC. Wish I wasn't working all week or I might have already pulled apart his list with some testing to see if his tweaks do what he is looking for.

Hopefully I will get some time tonight and tomorrow, if the testing is even still relevant then.

[Sisyphos]

I played two local tournaments with the list I posted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=765015&viewfull=1#post765015). The first one was with a minorly different sideboard configuration (my Toxic Deluges hadn't arrived yet), the second one was the exact 75 posted:

T1 R1: BURG Delver 2-1
T1 R2: Deathblade 0-2
T1 R3: DnT 1-2
T1 R4: Young Pyromancer/Reanimator 2-0
T1 R5: Sneak and Show 2-0

T2 R1: UWR Delver (with TNN) 2-0
T2 R2: Miracles 2-1
T2 R3: BURG Delver 2-0
T2 R4: ANT 2-1

The match against Deathblade was the typical round you get once in a while with a Chalice deck and the reason people trash the card in the SCD thread. If your draws decide to suck, they really suck and you don't have much you can do about it. Still not a very big sample size, but I continue to like my current configuration and the theory behind it. The sample size is small, but most of the major archetypes are represented, without claiming the results to be 100% as you should expect, aka I got pretty lucky against Sneak and Show for example.



Relating to the stompy version, and following your theory of playing more bombs instead of FoWs (which I think is fine) I would also cut the following:

- Baleful Strix: it is more oriented to control the aggro in the first turns and although card draw is excellent, it is not a turn 1 card and in turn 2 our priority should be to put a Lodestone Golem, a Trinisphere or a planeswalker in the battlefield as these are real bombs which required an immediate answer from our opponent.
- Thopter/sword combo: I think the combo is just a little bit too slow for a stompy version.
- Transmute artifact: if no thopter/sword combo is available and you don't want a toolbox because you prefer all your cards to be a bomb, i think transmute should also be cut.

These are 10 slots that may be used for more aggro or stompy style (i.e. Lotus Petal, Steel Hellkite, freaking cards like esperzoa, masticore or slash panther, etc) and the most important card: Toxic Deluge. I believe Toxic Deluge would be the perfect sweaper for us. 80% of the creatures of the meta have a toughness of 1 or 2 (including True Name Némesis if it sees heavy play). With no baleful in your maindeck, I would include 3 Toxic Deluge in my main with no doubt.

There are also some cards which I have certain doubts:

- Lodestone/Trinisphere: both are excellent cards but when you have a Trinishpehe in play, Lodestone is just a 5/3 (which is fine but not particularly amazing) so maybe I would reduce the number of Lodestone/Trinisphere and would include 3 copies of Tangle Wire which may allow you to establish a strong mana base for your planeswalker or your 6CC bombs.
- Chalice of the Void: is an excellent card against combo and RUG, but I think it is only really powerful on the play so I am not pretty sure if this should be more sideboard card.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with pretty much everything you said.

Baleful Strix: You are right, the ideal game of my list and all U/B Tezz lists is T1 Chalice followed by a four drop on turn two. Problem is, in reality that sequence will not happen every game. Sometimes a Delver does slip through, either because they won the die roll, or you didn't have the Sol land on T1, or they countered your Chalice, or you didn't have the Chalice. Playing a Planeswalker on T2 with your board empty against a Delver or Goblins is not what you want to be doing. Baleful Strix is a cheap efficient solution to all those problems while also providing you with card advantage. In the match of T2 R3 against BURG, twice my opponent had a flipped Delver and I used my whole turn to play Strix, which my opponent bolted before it could block. I still consider my turns well spent. He was stuck on two lands (as these kind of decks do), so having to use one mana to kill my Strix limited his options (I know his deck is like 50% one mana spells, but he can no longer cantrip into one he wants and still play it). It also meant when I played Jace afterwards to bounce his Delver he didn't have any more bolts to kill Jace and in the meantime I had not taken six damage to my face.

Thopter/Sword: Yes, it takes more setup than dropping a 5/3 Golem or making 5/5s with Tezz. As for the speed, I'd argue that based on your average board position when you assemble the combo, it kills at least as fast as a singular Lodestone. It also provides a very nice alternative route to victory that is very hard to handle for a lot of decks at the moment, especially since the most played graveyard hate now a days seems to be Grafdigger, Surgical or DRS, none of which interrupt you at all or if you play correctly (Surgical). It turns Terminus into a speed bump instead of a blowout. It keeps your life total healthy despite all the damage you inflict yourself, which is highly relevant against all the decks packing Bolts. Also I consider it not only a win-con, but also another semi-lock-piece. There is no difference if your opponents Delver is stuck in his hand because you resolved a Chalice on T1, or if it is in play and flipped but can do nothing for the rest of the game because you make 5+ Thopter tokens each turn to block his attacks and still swarm him.

Transmute: Even without the dedicated Toolbox most lists play, this still wins a very large percentage of the games it is cast. It means you play 5 Trinispheres and 6 Lodestones against Storm, 4 Ensnaring Bridges after boarding against Sneak and Show and as you yourself mentioned, it enables very fast Thopter/Sword without needing to waste slots.

FoW: All of the cards discussed above also tie into this one. I did not cut FoW completely, but moved it to the board. Playing a blue Chalice deck means you get the option to not die against a deck comboing you out on T1 when you are on the draw. It also means you can vary your disruption against decks where the artifact based disruption you play in the maindeck is not optimal. Chalice/Trini/Lodestone all are not perfect against decks like Sneak and Show. But if you want to board in FoW, you need a minimum of blue cards in your maindeck to support them. Only playing 8 planeswalkers as your blue cards will not work. I think even my blue count is rather low after boarding.

Toxic Deluge: Yes, I like this card a lot. It fits nearly perfectly and I am thinking of either using a third in my board or playing one main and going down to a single Wurmcoil to do it. (By the way, am I the only guy that has a crush on this card? Most of the SCG lists play none. Would love to hear some of the reasoning why you all cut him.)

Lodestone/Trini: I think you miss the point of why I'm playing both of these cards. I know that they don't interact that well with each other. In the tournaments I played in, Lodestone several times became mostly a vanilla 5/3 because I had already resolved a Trinisphere. But as the SCD thread on Chalice teaches us, Chalice decks suck because they are inconsistent. How do you gain consistency if you can not play cantrips? You play more cards with similar effects. Sneak and Show, often praised as being one of the most consistent combo decks played, plays a lot of cantrips, but it starts with 8 of each combo pieces. Look at Dragon Stompy. The second Blood Moon is even more dead than the Lodestone after Trini, but no one ever even considers playing less than 8 Moon effects. Yes the second one is substandard, but not only do you want one every game, you actually want back up because not every deck just scoops to the first Chalice/Trini/Golem, because they can either counter or destroy it.

Tangle Wire: I've seen the list playing four of these in the main deck with quite a bit of success, but in my list and in principle, I'm skeptical. I like the card and think it is a powerful effect, but the list playing Tangle Wire plays Mox Opals and Lotus Petals, enabling it to get more permanents on the board quickly than a list with Signets and Talismans (Talismen?), to take full advantage of it. Simply jamming Tangle Wire into a list without considering the other 56 cards will not yield optimal results. The part I'm mostly skeptical about though is: Tangle Wire does not stop Cantrips like Probe or Brainstorm or Top activations from being used by combo decks to sculpt a perfect hand to enable Land -> Ritual -> Ritual -> etc etc -> kill you, while it allows you to set up your mana but as all your threads are creatures or planeswalkers, unless you get an absurd amount of mana, you will take a couple of turns to actually play a thread or a second disruption piece.

CotV: I do not want to sound disrespectful, but this is were I have to start questioning how many Chalice decks you have played. Yes, Chalice is the most powerful on the play T1. But, so is Delver. Yet no Delver deck will put them into his sideboard. Your deck revolves around this card. Without it, your whole deck would look different or wouldn't exist at all. Playing it on T2 or on the draw is just fine. It is not as powerful as the alternative, but look at it like this: They have resolved a Ponder/Delver/etc on their first turn. You have now turned 50% of their deck into dead draws. Who wins the trade off? And yes, it is the most powerful against Delver or Combo. But it is by no means bad against other decks. Just count the cc1 cards in a deck like Miracles, Jund or even Dredge.

[Undomian]

Ended the day at 5-3, dreamcrushed in round 8. Surprisingly lost to RUG for two of my rounds either to really good hands on their part or iffy keeps on my part. Got booted due to manascrew in my round 8 against True-Name BUG. My day looked something like:

R1: Goblins (2-1)
R2: Quadlaser Dredge (2-0)
R3: BUG Delver (2-1)
R4: Manaless Dredge (2-1)
R5: RUG (1-2)
R6: Omnishow (2-1)
R7: RUG (0-2)
R8: True-Name BUG (0-2)

Played my normal list with the sideboard I talked about earlier but with Golgari Charm over Abrupt Decay. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it, since I killed an Omniscience with it to take R6 (I also had Trinisphere in play so that might be moot) but had it rotting in my hand to a lethal Tarmogoyf in R8. Toxic Deluge was pretty sweet most of the time, as the ability to pay 6 to wipe some Goyfs away was really, really relevant on the day. It does suck to have it countered as one might expect, though that only happened once as I took care to bait countermagic before I played it. That card will be staying in the board for sure.

[Undomian]

So, double post, but a little more detail:

The 75 I played:

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Baleful Strix
2 Dimir Signet
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 The Abyss
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
3 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Lodestone Golem


R1: Goblins
I arrive at the first match of the day, sit across from my opponent, and keep a 7 with a T1 Chalice and some other reasonable cards. Luckily for me, not only is his hand super slow (no plays on turn 1), but either he never drew a Lackey or was unaware of the interaction between Cavern of Souls and Chalice. I made a lot of thopters, and took down G1. G2, I Deluged him, but he was able to chain enough Ringleaders (he saw all 4 of them in this game) to stay in it. In game 3, he had a hand with two Vials, which was quickly dismantled on turn 2 by an EE to get both of them. I stalled him enough with that to accumulate a board presence as he missed a lot of land drops, and ulted him out with Tezzeret.

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Toxic Deluge
+1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1-0

R2: Dredge
This was... not a very interactive game of Magic. My opponent had Faithless Looting on his T1 to get a Stinkweed Imp into his GY, but when he dredged it on the following turn, he hit absolutely nothing relevant. I killed him shortly afterward after Wastelanding all of his mana. In game two, I dropped a T0 Leyline, and Helmed him out on turn 5 or so.

-2 The Abyss
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Thopter Foundry
-1 Sword of the Meek
+4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Helm of Obedience

2-0

R3: BUG Delver
Game 1, I kept one of those hands that looks really sweet except for the mana. I played City into Chalice, with a Diamond for colored mana, and Thopter/Sword in hand. I didn't draw any land as my opponent played out some Tarmogoyfs, and I conceded having only played Chalice and City so my opponent would put me on MUD. Things did not look good for me as I mulled down to 5 in game two, but it turned out my 5 was the actual nut 5: Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek, Baleful Strix, and two fetchlands. I played out my combo as I drew more lands, and my opponent died without seeing any way to interact with my flying army. I mulled AGAIN in game 3 (so many 1 landers in this tournament), but was able to take over the game with early planeswalkers and finished him with my Thopter army.

-4 Chalice
+1 EE
+3 Toxic Deluge

3-0

R4: Manaless Dredge
This might have been one of the quickest matches of Magic that I've ever played. On the play, I laid Underground Sea and passed. My opponent drew, discarded Phantasmagorian, and I conceded because my hand contained zero interaction against that. Games 2 and 3 were identical to each other, as I laid a T0 Leyline, and my opponent immediately conceded because he had no interaction with that card in his 75.

-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Pithing Needle

4-0

R5: RUG
This match was a typical RUG matchup, extremely swingy and draw-dependent. G1, I kept a hand that would be fine against something like Stoneblade, with some lands, a Force, a Diamond, a Jace, and a Transmute. Against a T1 Mongoose, though, this hand was not so great. I played an Island and passed, and he laid out a Delver. On my T2, I ripped another Diamond, and decided that I needed to go all in on my Transmute if I wanted a shot at winning the game. I laid out Ancient Tomb, played out two Diamonds, and cast Transmute leaving Force+Jace in my hand. My opponent dazed, I forced back, and Transmute resolved sacrificing Diamond to get Ensnaring Bridge. At this point, I was hellbent, and after playing out a few turns with me drawing into more mana and casting all of the spells I drew, he conceded. Games 2 and 3 had a lot of countermagic on his end and not much interaction on my end, and I lost in short order.

-4 Force of Will
+3 Toxic Deluge
+1 Golgari Charm

4-1

R6: Omnishow
Of all the Snow and Tell decks, this is the easiest one to beat. Though he killed me game 1 through a Chalice at 1, games 2 and 3 were taken down by simply playing out LSG/Trinisphere when I had multiples and Showing one in when he cast that card. Game 3 was a little closer, but as I had only let him see LSG in Game 2, he allowed my Transmute with 3 mana up and only Diamonds on the battlefield to resolve. Trinisphere is a pretty hard counter to his deck, though, and he lost shortly after. Plus, I got to Golgari Charm an Omniscience with Trinisphere out disallowing him from any responses, which was pretty nice.

-2 The Abyss
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Lodestone Golem
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Golgari Charm

5-1

R7: RUG
I can't remember this match very well, but I boarded the same was as I did against my last RUG opponent, and lost in a flurry of countermagic and Wastelands.

5-2

R8: Shardless BUG
Ahh, the dreamcrusher round. I got absolutely demolished here. In both games, my 7 was highly dependent on artifact mana, and in both games, my opponent had at least two Decay in his opening 7. This felt a lot like playing against a RUG nut draw. I ended both games with very few permanents in play while he murdered me with Deathrites and Goyfs.

5-3, drop.

At the Legacy Plus event on Sunday, I had a dissapointing 4-3 record after being paired against Imperial Painter in both rounds 1 and 2 and l. Goblin Welder and Vexing Shusher (seriously?) are pretty good against us it seems.

All in all, I had a pretty good run. Toxic Deluge is just as good as I had anticipated, though it feels as bad as one might expect if it gets countered. I don't plan on changing a thing about the Maindeck, and the only SB card that underperformed was probably Pithing Needle, though that might have just been the matchups. Needle did win me a game against Affinity on Sunday, so it is relevant in some cases.

[Ellomdian]

Minor primer update. I have been playing with CVM's Transmute/Jace swap, and I am liking it, and my board is now a 1/1/1 split between Damnation, Toxic Deluge, and Perish. I am keeping the Perish because of how much it kills T2, and how much less it hurts to cast than Deluge (but I bring in all 3 a lot of the time.)

I also want a foil, Japanese, misprint Grafdigger's Cage, signed by Finkel himself. That 1-of in the board has saved my bacon more times in the last month than any other single card in the list.

Also, credit where credit is due to Undomain's list. While I don't personally like the prison-y side of things, I am not one to pretend that something I don't like doesn't win. I don't like primers that cover every possible configuration of a deck, but I have added his list for credit's sake.

[Schulzchop]

Hello all, this is my first time posting in the Tezz forum. I made day 2 of the GP with the following:

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Baleful Strix
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Dimir Signet
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Damnation

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard:
2 Dread of Night
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Damnation
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Trinisphere
1 Cursed Totem
1 Meekstone
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wurmcoil Engine


Rd 01: Bye
Rd 02: Lands W (2-0)
Rd 03: Sneak and Show W (2-1)
Rd 04: RUG W (2-0) [Alexander Hayne]
Rd 05: ANT L (0-2) [LSV]
Rd 06: Elves L (1-2) [Josh Utter-Leyton]
Rd 07: Affinity W (2-1)
Rd 08: High Tide W (2-1)
Rd 09: Charbelcher W (2-0)
Rd 10: RUG W (2-1)
Rd 11: RUG L (1-2)
Rd 12: Death and Taxes L (0-2)

Some of the highlights:

In round 2 against Lands, my opponent copied my Academy Ruins with his Thespian's Stage to start recurring Oblivion Stone, which was awkward. Fortunately this was a very slow plan on his part and allowed me to find a needle for his O-stone and a Jace to fateseal him to death.

In round 3, my Sneak and Show opponent played a Grafdigger's Cage and a Pithing Needle naming...wait for it...Ancient Tomb. Poor guy traveled all the way from the Netherlands to play in this GP too.

In round 4, a topdecked Wurmcoil Engine won me a game I had no business winning against Alex. Wurmcoil also won me Rd 10 against RUG. I don't know if I can see running this deck without at least 1 in the 75.

Round 5, LSV, my first time playing one of my magic idols. In general, I like playing against storm with Tezz, but it was not to be as I mulled to 4 game 1 and mulled to 5 game 2. Oh well.

Round 6, Gleeful Sabotage blowouts, ugh.

Round 8 against high tide, in game 2, I am threatening Tezz Ult but I'm pretty sure I'm dead when he goes High Tide, High Tide, Meditate. He bricks off, and I get two turns! I go to ultimate Tezz for lethal and he responds with Hurkyl's Recall (!), and I pick up like 7 artifacts, not to mention my Tezz is dead. Luckily two of those were strixes, which allowed me to find Chalice on 1 and Revoker for Candelabra of Tawnos.

Round 9, I'm sweating bullets, because I've never made day 2 before. He's on the play and opens with Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish. I couldn't slam down Force of Will fast enough. Game 2 he opens on Chrome Mox, Taiga, Simian Spirit Guide, Magus of the Moon. Yep, this was his plan. I proceed to play a bunch of Mountains into Signets and destroy him.

I dropped on day 2 after losing rounds 11 and 12. Against Death and Taxes in particular, I think I lost because I wasn't familiar enough with how the matchup played out, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a real pain. Baleful strix is colossally bad in that matchup.

Overall the deck was awesome and I would definitely play it again, probably with some tweaks. The maindeck Needle was probably unnecessary, and another sweeper would probably be better in that slot. I only drew Solemn once, in which he was absurd, but I did board him out a lot, so maybe he isn't good enough. I think more Lodestones in the board is warranted, its just an outstanding card for both pressure and disruption in the match ups you want it.

[Undomian]

Congrats on the finish! How was only having 3 Chalices in your deck? Did you ever find yourself wanting it on turn 1 in certain matchups, or was that number sufficient?

[Schulzchop]

Congrats on the finish! How was only having 3 Chalices in your deck? Did you ever find yourself wanting it on turn 1 in certain matchups, or was that number sufficient?

I did wish I had it on turn one more often. The reason I tried only 3 maindeck was because drawing multiples is often terrible, and its not great for transmute fodder. However, I think it was wrong not to run the fourth in the sideboard, because it is such an important card in some matchups.

[Arianrhod]

Won my local last night with Tezz. 1-of maindeck Trinisphere was a savage beating, coming in handy against ANT, Infect Stompy, and Aluren. I didn't see it against Reanimator, but I left it in for that matchup as well.

Here's where my list -was-:

4 Baleful Strix

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Transmute Artifact

4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Dimir Signet
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Time Sieve

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta

//Sb
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flusterstorm
2 Guardian Beast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Cursed Totem
1 Jester's Cap
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin (couldn't get a pair of Deluges for these two slots)
2 Lodestone Golem

I tried sideboarding out 1 Thopter, 1 Sword and found that 2/1 was a reasonable split -- it took me a little longer to hit it when I needed to, but not really an unreasonable amount. The Sieve was a bad idea that I felt like trying -- it never did anything.

Intuitions have continued to be stone money for me. I like them substantially more than the more popular Thirst for Knowledges.

3 Jace has felt fine; 3 Force has not.

Planned changes:

-1 Thopter
-1 Sword
-1 Time Sieve

+1 Force of Will
+?
+?

SB:

-2 Perish / Virtue's Ruin
-1 Force of Will

+2 Toxic Deluge
+1 Engineered Plague

That's where I'm at for the moment. Not sure what I want the remaining two maindeck slots to be.

[Undomian]

That's where I'm at for the moment. Not sure what I want the remaining two maindeck slots to be.

Some kind of sweeper/The Abyss, perhaps?

Also, how has Trading Post performed for you? What matchups do you find it to be good in? I've tried it in playtesting but it has never really done anything much for me.

[kingtk3]

@arian: i suggest ratchet bomb for your 2main deck slot because i think you're light on removal and imagine that you heavily relay on bridge against aggro

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[Arianrhod]

Some kind of sweeper/The Abyss, perhaps?

Also, how has Trading Post performed for you? What matchups do you find it to be good in? I've tried it in playtesting but it has never really done anything much for me.

That's where I'm leaning for the moment....some kind of anti-aggro / anti-fair option.

The Post with the Most has been wonderful. It's essentially the 8th planeswalker, in lieu of the 4th Jace -- except that it can be transmuted for. It blocks basically anything (none of the commonly played Swords of X/Y give pro-white) short of a True-Name. It gains 4 life a chunk vs burn-heavy matchups / unchecked Delvers / makes Tendrils count harder / lets you continue using Ancient Tomb longer. It forms a backup recursion engine, sacrificing Thopter tokens to recur useful artifacts. It sacrifices useless lategame Chalices and manarocks and turns them into fresh cards. One of my favorite things to do with it is to sacrifice Sword of the Meek to it, draw a card, then play a Baleful Strix and bring the sword back -- makes a nice little engine.

It also enables an Intuition pile of Academy Ruins / Crucible of Worlds / Trading Post, which ensures that you get all 3.

[Koby]

I think it's most underrated ability - discard to gain life and keep Ensnaring Bridge at the right threshold !!!

I like this idea, and I'll be incorporating it into my list. (Mostly because Thirst for Knowledge does not come in Korean, and Intuition + Trading Post do :laugh:)

[Undomian]

My next monthly is coming up, I'll give it a shot. I might try something like -1Thopter/-1Sword, +1 Wurmcoil Engine +1 Post.

[Megadeus]

I think it's most underrated ability - discard to gain life and keep Ensnaring Bridge at the right threshold !!!

I like this idea, and I'll be incorporating it into my list. (Mostly because Thirst for Knowledge does not come in Korean, and Intuition + Trading Post do :laugh:)
Post + bridge is indeed GG vs any deck that wants to win with creatures

[nedleeds]

Post + bridge is indeed GG vs any deck that wants to win with creatures


I dropped the totem for the third bridge there and it was key in many victories. Having a Trading Post online with the bridge to control the number of cards in your hand is insane.

[Megadeus]

Shit how old is that? Lol

[nedleeds]

Shit how old is that? Lol

Hahaha yeah it's funny when new tech is really really old ...

[Koby]

Bleh played this deck tonite and went 2-2. Need more practice. Tried Liliana in the SB, but they did jack shit against Jund & Sneak Show (but were better than bullshit board control shit). Intuition was almost never useful for me, as I never had an opening to durdle with it.

[warfordium]

i love me a durdly UB(gx) control shell no matter what the bombs are, but the days of getting to a) intuition b) resolve what you intuitioned for c) get value out of the things you binned (loam, ee/ruins, worm harvest, rites/fatty etc) are long gone in legacy, sadly. if only i had a time machine to go play It's the Fear…

[tyndall]

Why nobody plays Lim-Dul's Vault ?
It seems very strong and in the right colors.
It has never disappointed me in this build.

[Undomian]

Why nobody plays Lim-Dul's Vault ?
It seems very strong and in the right colors.
It has never disappointed me in this build.

I mean, yeah, this is a sweet card, but why would we play this when we already play Transmute Artifact? Vault does search for our walkers/other spells if we need those, but most of the time anything we need to tutor for will be one of our toolbox artifacts, and TA puts those right onto the battlefield.

[Ellomdian]

Finally faced the Mirror this weekend at NM. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I boarded -2 Foundry/Sword and +2 EPlague and +2 Thoughtseize G2. Named Bird and Horror (rather awkwardly, I wanted to name Thopter...) when my JTMS got Revoker'd.

I was terribly happy with the extra Transmute G1, although, I think I am slowly coming around to another Bridge in the board. As it stands, 2x Misdirection, 2x Eplague, 2xPerish, 2x Thoughtseize all seem to be environment dependent, and the 1x Needle, 1x Cage, 1x EE and 1x Damnation (with 1 in the Main of both) are the regular crew. I think it's hard to have more than 8 set SB slots without a clear plan based on the meta, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Arianrhod]

Good job, guys -- Tezz is stone unplayable.


I would talk about card decisions, but the deck was just bad.

Straight. Up. Unplayable.

Instead, I'm going to talk about why it was bad.

Tezzeret is not a fluid deck. You can have turn 2 planeswalkers. More often you are trying to play multiple spells after playing a City of Traitors early on.

Tezzeret is not a consistent deck. Your deck is very much on the plan of a small number of game breakers carrying a large number of enablers. This can be fine, but your ability to mulligan is constrained by needing a lot of your enablers to actually survive to a game state where your finishers matter.

Tezzeret is not a very powerful deck. Chalice of the Void can be a hard lock. Ensnaring Bridge can be a hard lock. Most of the time neither is. The only card in the deck that is reliably awesome is Tezzeret since it actually kills them. Jace only draws you into more do-nothings. Thopter Foundry is awesome . . . if you find Sword of the Meek.

Tezzeret is a small-ball deck. Tezzeret is a good card, but it functions on the level of 5/5 creatures. It is not Emrakuls or Griselbrands.

Tezzeret is very bad against in-play permanents. My opponents would play a couple threats and counter a spell, and I would die.

Here's the real joke. Here's his list:


Creatures (5)

4 Baleful Strix
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Planeswalkers (7)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands (21)

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells (27)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Damnation
2 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
1 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
3 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
3 Duress



The maindeck is pretty close to the SCG special. The maindeck Revoker doesn't offend me, but I still hate the maindeck Nihil, Ratchet, and the Thirsts. Whatever, that's standard fare.

Look at the sideboard. It's no wonder he did terribly with the deck and considers it unplayable. He was playing with essentially a 9-card board. I fail to see in what reality running 3 Dread of Night and 2 Grafdigger's Cage is better than cutting 1 of those slots and running a Cursed Totem. I could also start ranting about Dread of Night in general, but it just doesn't make sense to me why you -wouldn't- run Cursed Totem when you're obviously worried about DnT and Elves.

Trinisphere should be maindeck, Meekstone is profoundly unimpressive in this deck, and I loathe Duress in Tezz -- Flusterstorm is better, since you can throw up a Chalice@1 and still Flusterstorm people through it, as well as helping to keep your blue card count up postboard.

[kingtk3]

I've never been fond of the thirst for knowledge: this deck usually is a CA engine to the point that I've never wanted to cast thirst.
I believe those slots are better used with dimir charm. I think I would also play the full set of jace, possibly going down to 5 mana stone.

[Megadeus]

Does any one play lodestone golem in here? Thalia is usually a solid card vs Combo decks. Thalia that kills in 4 turns seems good. Is it really only a sideboard card?

[Sisyphos]

Does any one play lodestone golem in here?

I posted my latest list with 4 golem main here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=765015&viewfull=1#post765015)and also posted the results of two local tournaments with it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=766078&viewfull=1#post766078).

Before TNN it was definitely not only a sideboard card. It is a very nice card that I brought in in a lot of match-ups before trying them main. I'm not sure if it is quite as strong now, because if a TNN sticks, it is pretty much useless. On the other hand it is quite good at delaying TNN if you can get it down T2. The other card you don't want to see with Golem is Bolt. Golem/Wurmcoil also have some anti-synergy with Ensaring Bridge, a strategy that seems to be heavily emphasized in the control heavy lists most people seem to prefer. If TNN will indeed be such a format defining card, I doubt that 4 Golem main will be very good. I would probably always play at least one main as an additional Transmute target though.

[Ellomdian]

Good job, guys -- Tezz is stone unplayable.


I was hoping for at least some analysis based on your matchup and SB'ing decisions, and got "My opponents would play a couple threats and counter a spell, and I would die." - So you played RUG 7 rounds, and never jammed Chalice for 1 successfully on them? "I would talk about card decisions, but the deck was just bad. Straight. Up. Unplayable." Brilliant!

I realize I have a vested interest, but that article just pissed me off. And then he talks about how much better Tron would have been...

Ari's board decisions confuse me, as though he didn't bother testing very much. He is HEAVILY slanted towards the anti-aggro plan, and unlike previous commentators, I hate Revoker with 2 Damnations MD. I don't see how you can run multiple Dread Of Night unless you are planning on playing 3+ games against DnT and Maverick (thanks for last year's tech Ari!) I prefer Thirst, but I don't feel it's essential, but I also go for Thoughtseize from the SB to have a more control-y option. Meekstone is just bad now (and I don't think it was ever actually really good) and Bridge will Cure What Ails You (TM). I don't think there is a good reason not to run 3 Transmute now, and while I don't like Trinisphere in the main, Cursed Totem in the board is a Bingo-card for Elves and DnT.

Anyways, it's been a while since I've posted the 'current' list I am running, so...

Maindeck

Creatures (4)
4 Baleful Strix

Planeswalkers (7)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands (22)
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells (27)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dimir Signet
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Perish
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Plague
2 Misdirection
2 Thoughtseize


The sideboard continues to upset me. I feel even happier with Plague since True Name is still a 'Folk, but as actual Folk and Goblins tech, it sorely lacks. Perish should probably be Deluge at this point, but every time I've had to Deluge to kill a Goyf after ~Turn 3, I feel VERY vulnerable. I have been happy with Misdirection every time I have cast it, but TBH it doesn't happen often and it could probably be something else.

[Giggioz]

Hi guys,

i've been playing the deck for a while and i would like to share with you my considerations (and some questions of course).

I started winning a couple of very small tournament (8 people), then i placed 6th to a 18-persons event (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12025&iddeck=88116) and then 6th again in a 54-persons event (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11926&iddeck=87329)

Yesterday I lost in the semifinal of an approx 35 persons tournament.


The last list i played is


4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzeret, the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic deluge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Dimir Signet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 ratchet bomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Undergorund Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagwmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Sb
1 nihilbspellbomb
1 grafdigger cage
2 misdirection
1 damnation
1 transmute artifact
1 Pithing Needle
1 trinisphere
3 lodestone golem
1 Engineered plague
1 cursed totem
1 the abyss
1 ensnaring bridge

The main changes are related to find a why to fight True Nemesis : i put a The Abyss on the sideboard for a Toxic Deluge main and engineered plague + ensnaring bridge.

I never loved Nihil Spellbomb main so i chose pithing needle that has a more general use (and i always find him very useful).

The cards i love less in my main are Engineered Explosives and Ratched bomb, i never tutor them with transmute artifact and i would like to cut at least one of them (probably EE because is less synergic with Transmute Artifact).

Sideboard is quite good but i'm still thinking to do some tweaks on it: Damnation could be easily another Toxic Deluge (very good in this deck) and cursed totem is just overkill in this list... maybe a torpor orb could be sweet (it blocks mystic, snap, vendilion, visionary, behemot, nic-fit creatures and a lot of goblin creatures... goblin match up is a nightmare)

I would like to put other good answers for Nemesis and Goblins and i thought to 2 engineered plague, maybe cutting a lodestone and... whatelse?

Misdirections are a weird card :I use them as 5th and 6th FoW versus Combo to protect an hate card and they go in against Decay and/or Tourach but against BUG decks i usually board out a lot of blue cards and the blue count is so low...i don't know if they deserve a place in this sideboard.

So
1) what do you think about putting 3 Engineered Plague in the sideboard? What would you cut for the 2 extra copies?
2) what do you think about the Misdirections?
3) What about Torpor Orb ?
4) If i cut engineered explosives, what card could i play in the main?

[Darkenslight]

I think that, in a TNN-heavy meta, you actually put 2 EPlague main with a third in the board - they replace The Abyss and the EE main, and EE replaces the The Abyss in the board. The main issue is that you control the ability, so TNN can't be targeted by it if it has protection from You.

[Undomian]

I think that, in a TNN-heavy meta, you actually put 2 EPlague main with a third in the board - they replace The Abyss and the EE main, and EE replaces the The Abyss in the board. The main issue is that you control the ability, so TNN can't be targeted by it if it has protection from You.

This seems extreme in a deck that already mainboards Ensnaring Bridge and can race TNN with Thopters. Plague is just dead in so many matchups that having it mainboard would be painful.



So
1) what do you think about putting 3 Engineered Plague in the sideboard? What would you cut for the 2 extra copies?
2) what do you think about the Misdirections?
3) What about Torpor Orb ?
4) If i cut engineered explosives, what card could i play in the main?

1) Plagues might be fine in the SB if you also have a lot of Elves/Goblins in your meta (though it is really not very good against Elves), but in most scenarios, sweepers like Damnation and Deluge are really what we're looking for.
2) Misdirection is fine if you have a lot of black decks and combo with countermagic (Sneak and Show/Omni/Tide). I wouldn't bother otherwise.
3) I've tried this, and while it was cute, there are often better targets to get with your Transmute. Our deck is already designed to beat the hell out of SFM decks, it isn't going to help much at all against Goblins (comes down too late to matter most of the time unless we have it in our opener), and Bridge is probably better against Elves.
4) I like EE in the main, sometimes we need an out to problem permanents. We don't run it because we can Transmute for it, we run it because we can dig into it with Jace and Tezz and abuse it with Ruins in the late game.


I seem to be alone in this, but I feel like our TNN matchup is honestly not that bad. We have a number of maindeck ways to get around the thing (I've been emphasizing rushing Bridge and protecting it in these matchups), and post board, we can get rid of it without much of an issue.

[Ellomdian]

I seem to be alone in this, but I feel like our TNN matchup is honestly not that bad. We have a number of maindeck ways to get around the thing (I've been emphasizing rushing Bridge and protecting it in these matchups), and post board, we can get rid of it without much of an issue.

QFTruthery. Honestly, if TNN is a serious problem for you with this deck and it's SB options... What are you actually losing to? Because it sounds like there is another phase of the game you are losing to, and TNN is just cleaning it up.


Hi guys,

i've been playing the deck for a while and i would like to share with you my considerations (and some questions of course)....So

1) what do you think about putting 3 Engineered Plague in the sideboard? What would you cut for the 2 extra copies?
2) what do you think about the Misdirections?
3) What about Torpor Orb ?
4) If i cut engineered explosives, what card could i play in the main?

1. 3 in the board is likely overkill. EP is a good card against Elves, it's not bad against Goblins, and it's almost bad against Merfolk (with the exception of TNN sans lords.) If you can create a gamestate where you can reliably cast 2, it does a lot of damage against those tribes, but you are just piling on top of your other sweepers at that point.

2. I like Misdirections. I think there are more optimal cards for specific matchups, but I bring them in a lot against BUG, and I play against a lot of BUG. They also, as you pointed out, serve as Forces 5-6 to get spells through.

3. Topor Orb isn't bad, I'll leave it at that. Then again, Bridge eventually solves 90% of the problems you listed. And if your Goblins matchup is that bad, and hinges on Orb, you need more Sweepers. The Abyss is a BAD card against Gobbos. Needle main doesn't help much unless they are committed to the Vial plan. Hell, run Silent Arbiter out of the board - not many Gobbos can trade with him in combat ;)

4. EE fills an underappreciated niche of killing 1 and 2 drop permanants - I would argue for cutting the Ratchet Bomb over the EE main, and I am not going to do that. If you find the EE underwhelming, cut it and run another Bridge main. You can never have enough Bridge :p

[Giggioz]

1) Plagues might be fine in the SB if you also have a lot of Elves/Goblins in your meta (though it is really not very good against Elves), but in most scenarios, sweepers like Damnation and Deluge are really what we're looking for.
2) Misdirection is fine if you have a lot of black decks and combo with countermagic (Sneak and Show/Omni/Tide). I wouldn't bother otherwise.
3) I've tried this, and while it was cute, there are often better targets to get with your Transmute. Our deck is already designed to beat the hell out of SFM decks, it isn't going to help much at all against Goblins (comes down too late to matter most of the time unless we have it in our opener), and Bridge is probably better against Elves.
4) I like EE in the main, sometimes we need an out to problem permanents. We don't run it because we can Transmute for it, we run it because we can dig into it with Jace and Tezz and abuse it with Ruins in the late game.


I seem to be alone in this, but I feel like our TNN matchup is honestly not that bad. We have a number of maindeck ways to get around the thing (I've been emphasizing rushing Bridge and protecting it in these matchups), and post board, we can get rid of it without much of an issue.

1) I like the mix btw Plagues and Damnation/Deluge. I play maindeck The Abyss+Deluge and SB The Abyss+Deluge again ...adding 2 plagues is going to convince me :)
2) I see the point and i'll keep them
3) I don't think torpor orb is too slow for goblin: usually you can stall the board but then they may find matron for hooligan or bouncer and you simply lose... orb prevent this line of play. Orb vs goblin seems brutal: it stops siege gang, matron, ringleader, hooligan, stingscourger, marshal... by the way the card maybe is too narrow and i think one bridge more or the 2nd plague are just better
4) the only time i found EE useful was vs miracle where i recurse them to kill 2 entreats... in general i never use it even because if i set them to 0 i destroy my COTV and if i set them to 2 i destroy manastones and combo pieces... furthermore we can not put them to 3 and it's pretty frustrating...

After these considerations i think to this SB


1 nihilbspellbomb
1 grafdigger cage
2 misdirection
1 toxic deluge
1 transmute artifact
1 Pithing Needle
1 trinisphere
3 lodestone golem
2 Engineered plague
1 the abyss
1 ensnaring bridge

[Giggioz]

1. 3 in the board is likely overkill. EP is a good card against Elves, it's not bad against Goblins, and it's almost bad against Merfolk (with the exception of TNN sans lords.) If you can create a gamestate where you can reliably cast 2, it does a lot of damage against those tribes, but you are just piling on top of your other sweepers at that point.

2. I like Misdirections. I think there are more optimal cards for specific matchups, but I bring them in a lot against BUG, and I play against a lot of BUG. They also, as you pointed out, serve as Forces 5-6 to get spells through.

3. Topor Orb isn't bad, I'll leave it at that. Then again, Bridge eventually solves 90% of the problems you listed. And if your Goblins matchup is that bad, and hinges on Orb, you need more Sweepers. The Abyss is a BAD card against Gobbos. Needle main doesn't help much unless they are committed to the Vial plan. Hell, run Silent Arbiter out of the board - not many Gobbos can trade with him in combat ;)

4. EE fills an underappreciated niche of killing 1 and 2 drop permanants - I would argue for cutting the Ratchet Bomb over the EE main, and I am not going to do that. If you find the EE underwhelming, cut it and run another Bridge main. You can never have enough Bridge :p

1) I agree. Maybe 1 more (2 in total) is just a good addiction to other sideboard cards like bridge and mass removal.
2) Agreed. (see my previous post)
3) Torpor orb is nice but see my previous post. It's too narrow as (UNFORTUNATLY) Silent Arbiter :) ... this is the card i was looking for beating goblins... but it's too narrow...i should side it vs elves and dredge but i have better cards in these mu. As i said before Torpor orb leaves for the 2nd plague.
4) Bridge can be a nice substitute for EE/Rachet (i would cut EE for the reasons i wrote in the previous posts) and it would free one SB slot... nice point! I'll think on it.

Thanks guys, i think we are moving in the right direction.

[Ellomdian]

1) I agree. Maybe 1 more (2 in total) is just a good addiction to other sideboard cards like bridge and mass removal.
2) Agreed. (see my previous post)
3) Torpor orb is nice but see my previous post. It's too narrow as (UNFORTUNATLY) Silent Arbiter :) ... this is the card i was looking for beating goblins... but it's too narrow...i should side it vs elves and dredge but i have better cards in these mu. As i said before Torpor orb leaves for the 2nd plague.
4) Bridge can be a nice substitute for EE/Rachet (i would cut EE for the reasons i wrote in the previous posts) and it would free one SB slot... nice point! I'll think on it.

Thanks guys, i think we are moving in the right direction.

Torpor Orb does nothing against against 90% of the goblins strategy of dude,dude,dude,kill you. It is literally a blank card against lords and beaters.

[Sisyphos]

Additionally Topor Orb kinda kills your main way to survive against creatures as it prevents ThopterSword...

[Ellomdian]

Additionally Topor Orb kinda kills your main way to survive against creatures as it prevents ThopterSword...

Probably siding out Thopter/sword against Gobbos, because I want to stack my sweepers and I generally am planning to win with a Big Tezz ult. But YMMV.

So there's a question for everybody - if I want to bring in 4-5 cards against Gobbos, what are YOU taking out?

[Undomian]

Probably siding out Thopter/sword against Gobbos, because I want to stack my sweepers and I generally am planning to win with a Big Tezz ult. But YMMV.

So there's a question for everybody - if I want to bring in 4-5 cards against Gobbos, what are YOU taking out?

Usually Jace and Chalice, as both are overwhelmingly subpar in that matchup.

[Sisyphos]

Probably siding out Thopter/sword against Gobbos, because I want to stack my sweepers and I generally am planning to win with a Big Tezz ult. But YMMV.

So there's a question for everybody - if I want to bring in 4-5 cards against Gobbos, what are YOU taking out?

If you're running the silver bullet plan main, I'd start with stuff like Nihil Spellbomb, which is completely useless, then I would go to Jace as Undomian suggested. Considering Chalice as a card to take out, would vary if I'm on the draw or on the play. On the play I'd probably keep the Chalices, as you can blank Lackey and Vial. On the draw the card gets much weaker. As our removal is mostly sorcery based (especially the sweepers), Vial especially can be a pain. EOT Warchief into Ringleader on their turn with all their mana up can lead to disgusting comebacks. I'm also quite likely to shave a Thirst if I need an extra card, but I never liked the card anyway, so maybe that's just me.

I think you can find 4-5 cards that are weaker then ThopterSword, even if you want to bring in 4+ sweepers. I also often found it quite hard to get Tezz ultimate big enough to kill without at least some help of ThopterSword. You're latest list plays 19 artifacts main without ThopterSword (if I count correctly). Relying purely on Tezz means getting nearly 50 % of your artifacts onto the board. ThopterSword makes this much easier while reducing the risk of being too low and dying to random haste creatures.

[Undomian]

Time to push this thread up with some match results! I ended up splitting my local monthly legacy event with the following:


4 Baleful Strix

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

2 The Abyss

4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post

4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
3 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Lodestone Golem


Unfortunately, I forgot to bring a notepad to this event, so I can't provide any sort of detailed match info.

R1: UWR Delver (0-2)
R2: UWR Delver (2-1)
R3: UWR Delver (2-0)
R4: Deadguy Ale (2-1)
R5: Elves (2-0)
T4: UB Tezzeret (2-0)
Finals: Split w/ Elves guy.

In the wake of the deck's recent results, it seems like a lot of people have jumped ship from their usual decks in favor of UWR Delver. Barring any abysmal draws (see Round 1), this matchup seems to be in our favor as it is with most Delver decks. This one even has a slower clock and less artifact hate postboard, which is nice. I locked up my Deadguy match with Ensnaring Bridge in both of the games that I won, so the second bridge added to the SB definitely pulled its weight. The elves matchup was nothing unexpected, and was over pretty quickly. In the top 4, I faced another Tezz deck. His build was very different from mine, with 4 Phyrexian Revoker mainboard. He actually sided into Null Rod in our match, and I know he had the capacity to transform into Painter Stone (though I didn't see it). Unfortunately, the Null Rod ended up hurting him far more than it did me due to my draw in that game, and I ended up taking the match. The finals were split because the prize for 1st/2nd was the same, and he had to leave.

[Undomian]

Double post because it's been awhile. Took down a 16-man at a new store yesterday to the tune of a shiny new Volcanic Island. I was defeated by Shardless Bug (2-0) in round 4 of the swiss after defeating Dredge (2-0), Spiral Tide (2-0), and UW Helm (2-0), putting me in to the T8 in 2nd. I then battled against TinFins (2-1), Merfolk (2-0), and Reanimator (2-0) to win the tournament. The Leylines in the board were excellent, and easily resolidified their place there.

[Sisyphos]

Nice going Undomian! I take it you played the 75 from your last post? Guess I have to try out a Mox-build again. Last time I did, I ran into mana problems in nearly every round. Guess it was just variance or my list was crap.

Couple of questions about your list:

How did the Trading Post work out? Has it convinced you or would you consider it a flex slot?
Most lists run a 2/2 split between Foundry/Sword. Any particular reasons for the change to 3/1?
You run 10 colorless lands, yet no Urborg which is a commonly played card in most lists without Wastelands. Did you try out an Urborg instead of the third basic or do you find the fixing unnecessary?
Why the second Misty instead of the fourth Delta? Simply to confuse opponents and against Extraction? Seeing as Misty does not fetch all your lands while Delta does.
I'm always curious about Pithing Needle instead of Phyrexian Revoker. In your experience, do you prefer Needle because of the amount of sweepers you play even though it is worse with Chalice and even though you lose some utility against Storm decks? I guess it also depends on which matchups you plan to use the effect in, aka if you want Needle against decks you also want sweepers against. What matchups do you board in Needle usually?

[Undomian]

Nice going Undomian! I take it you played the 75 from your last post? Guess I have to try out a Mox-build again. Last time I did, I ran into mana problems in nearly every round. Guess it was just variance or my list was crap.

Couple of questions about your list:

How did the Trading Post work out? Has it convinced you or would you consider it a flex slot?

I'm still testing it, but it has actually been pretty fantastic in testing. One of the biggest issues with Bridge is the fact that sometimes, you can't play everything you draw, and Post fixes that pretty easily. It has also been an all-star in grindy matches for obvious reasons. I don't think I would be playing it if I didn't have at least 2 Bridges in the 75, though.

Most lists run a 2/2 split between Foundry/Sword. Any particular reasons for the change to 3/1?

I used to run 3/2, but went to 3/1 when my meta shifted to contain less creature-centric decks (i.e. Fish/D&T) as the combo was not as necessary. This is really just personal preference, but I prefer to have the extra Foundry because having one of those Decayed is a lot more common than having your Sword eaten by an Ooze or something. It is nice to have backups, and having the extra blue card is awesome sometimes too.

You run 10 colorless lands, yet no Urborg which is a commonly played card in most lists without Wastelands. Did you try out an Urborg instead of the third basic or do you find the fixing unnecessary?

In the past, I played 1 Island/1 Swamp/1 Urborg, but since a few people where I play like to cast Blood Moon (we had 4 people in a 30-ish person tournament playing Imperial Painter one time...), and also since Urborg seemed to be too 'cute' when I did draw it, I just put the second basic in.

Why the second Misty instead of the fourth Delta? Simply to confuse opponents and against Extraction? Seeing as Misty does not fetch all your lands while Delta does.

I should probably be playing the fourth Delta over the second Misty. The real reason for this is probably that I don't own a Chinese one.

I'm always curious about Pithing Needle instead of Phyrexian Revoker. In your experience, do you prefer Needle because of the amount of sweepers you play even though it is worse with Chalice and even though you lose some utility against Storm decks? I guess it also depends on which matchups you plan to use the effect in, aka if you want Needle against decks you also want sweepers against. What matchups do you board in Needle usually?

I bring in Needle against storm combo and the like, but it is never my first priority as Trinisphere/LSG is almost always better. Needle is in my board because (in my experience at least) this deck can't beat a Liliana on turn 2 if we don't have a Force or a nut draw with Tezzeret. I tend to side Chalice out against Liliana decks, so that interaction is almost never relevant. It is also more probable that I would Transmute for the Needle (which doesn't give my opponent a chance to respond if they don't know what I'm transmuting for) than actually cast it, which gets around Chalice as well. Sweepers are also brought in against said Liliana decks, so my reasoning is basically what you were thinking.

[Undomian]

If anyone cares to watch, Joe Lossett has been streaming dailies with this deck on MODO recently. You can find the videos in his archives.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

[xdavisx]

If anyone cares to watch, Joe Lossett has been streaming dailies with this deck on MODO recently. You can find the videos in his archives.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

Good lookin out. I've been becoming more and more intrigued with the deck and it's good to see some fresh content.

[oarsman]

Last round of the legacy daily. You guys might get a kick out of this.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/c/3523644

[Darkenslight]

Last round of the legacy daily. You guys might get a kick out of this.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/c/3523644

Yeah, that was amusing. Carry Away FTW.

[kingtk3]

Last round of the legacy daily. You guys might get a kick out of this.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/c/3523644

Your exultation was the best! That's how real magic should be: kick people faces with underrated cards!!!

[Undomian]

Turns out this deck is still ridiculously good right now. Took down a 26-man local tournament today, battling through 8 rounds of magic to take home the prize. That's usually a non-sea dual land of your choice, but I just got store credit and used it toward a Time Vault. One more step toward Vintage, woo!

[kingtk3]

Turns out this deck is still ridiculously good right now. Took down a 26-man local tournament today, battling through 8 rounds of magic to take home the prize. That's usually a non-sea dual land of your choice, but I just got store credit and used it toward a Time Vault. One more step toward Vintage, woo!

Gratz on the finish, I'm sure the vault was especially sweet ;)

[klaus]

Hey guys,
first post on this thread if I'm not mistaken.
I fooled around with "Turbo Prison" over in the N&D thread and have eventually ended up with something UBW Tezzerator-ish after some serious tweaking. Thought I'd post my list here for some food for thought.
Let me know what you think!

4 Jace
1 Tezzeret (used to be a 3/2 split - wanted to see Jace 99% of the time though, thus 4/1 - no offense but Tezz hardly ever had the impact I was hoping he had)
4 FoW
4 Supreme Verdict (SV actually makes the deck tick, with all those Spell Pierce decks around these days)
4 Chalice
1 Moat (wins games on it's own (also I like that it cannot fall victim to AD), could be replaced by EE though)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds (I have actually tinkered with Loam, which nicely puts more land and artifacts in the yard which later can be Academy Ruin'ed, adding G seems lack luster though)
3 TfKnowledge
3 Thoughtcast
2 Baleful Strix
1 Intuition (more than 1 seems excessive - I love C/A but often felt - damn I'd rather have a spell that did something NOW)
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
(32)

3 Mox Opal (3 color mana fixer, why isn't this part of your core?)
2 Mox Diamond
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmer Void
1 Academy Ruins
4 Vault of Whispers
2 City of Brass
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
(28)

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist (another goodie white makes possible, w/o Canonist, the combo MU seems so so)
2 Arcane Lab (not sure about this, but I feel the Aggro & Control MU is generally slightly favorable, thus: moar combo hate - Sphere of resistance could be an option too though)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares (specifically against Delver Tempo)
2 Oblivion Ring

[kingtk3]

Hi klaus, nice to see you here ;)

I sleeve tezzeretor from time to time and I found that I had more than enough card advantage with the walkers to justify Thirst for knowledge.

Your list is admittely lighter on walkers, but you also have Thoughtcast, so I have the feeling that thirst is not needed.

What you lack, instead, is a solution for the deck's number 1 enemy: gaddock teeg. If he hits the table you can only hope to assemble thopter-sword.

I'd make these changes: -3 thirst, -1 supreme verdict, +1 toxic deluge, +1 tezzeret aob, +2 dimir charm (which help against combo too).

It would be nice to fit a couple of transmute artifact too, but at this point I don't know what you could take out: maybe as you test the deck you'll find some un-needed/suboptimal card.

Let us know about your progresses!

EDIT: in the side I'd try to diversify combo hate. You already have 4 fow maindeck (and 2 dimir charm if my suggestion catches your immagination), so I'll add some flusterstorm (which works even under chalice@1) instead of 2 arcane labs and 1 canonist: they are useful only against storm and their effects overlap, and arcane lab is slow if you don't draw mox or tomb.
It would be nice to play some discard too, even if it conflicts with chalice: in the past I played 1 or 2 duress in the side because you don't always draw chalice and if you have drawn it you are already good shape.

[klaus]

Hi klaus, nice to see you here ;)

I sleeve tezzeretor from time to time and I found that I had more than enough card advantage with the walkers to justify Thirst for knowledge.

Your list is admittely lighter on walkers, but you also have Thoughtcast, so I have the feeling that thirst is not needed.

What you lack, instead, is a solution for the deck's number 1 enemy: gaddock teeg. If he hits the table you can only hope to assemble thopter-sword.

I'd make these changes: -3 thirst, -1 supreme verdict, +1 toxic deluge, +1 tezzeret aob, +2 dimir charm (which help against combo too).

It would be nice to fit a couple of transmute artifact too, but at this point I don't know what you could take out: maybe as you test the deck you'll find some un-needed/suboptimal card.
Let us know about your progresses!

EDIT: in the side I'd try to diversify combo hate. You already have 4 fow maindeck (and 2 dimir charm if my suggestion catches your immagination), so I'll add some flusterstorm (which works even under chalice@1) instead of 2 arcane labs and 1 canonist: they are useful only against storm and their effects overlap, and arcane lab is slow if you don't draw mox or tomb.
It would be nice to play some discard too, even if it conflicts with chalice: in the past I played 1 or 2 duress in the side because you don't always draw chalice and if you have drawn it you are already good shape.

Thanks for your feedback and also for recommending this thread despite my white splash, I think there are enough identical choices to at least take a little dip - hope the rest agrees.

Dimir Charme looks sexy on paper, but the color requirement is not to be underestimated. UB is easier to assemble for non-splashed lists - I run 9 non-UB land and no fetches. Could be a 1of, but then again Strix #3 might perform better overall for the same casting cost, despite serving an entirely different purpose.
I did run Fluster Storm in my board and it might actually make a comeback. FS definitely feels stronger that discard.

As for Gaddock - with Maverick still on the decline, I don't see too many atm and tend to ignore him for deck building aspects. Going -1 SV +1 Deluge seems feasible though - if only for a smoother casting cost.

I think I prefer Thoughtcast & TfK over Transmute Artifact, simply because that kind of C/A finds non-artifact solutions plus is easier to cast (again UU..).
I could see Transmute Artifcat being included as a one-of though, as it's never really random due to it's tutor nature.

[kingtk3]

Thanks for your feedback and also for recommending this thread despite my white splash, I think there are enough identical choices to at least take a little dip - hope the rest agrees.

Dimir Charme looks sexy on paper, but the color requirement is not to be underestimated. UB is easier to assemble for non-splashed lists - I run 9 non-UB land and no fetches. Could be a 1of, but then again Strix #3 might perform better overall for the same casting cost, despite serving a entirely different purpose.
I did run Fluster Storm in my bord and it might actually make a comeback.

As for Gaddock - with Maverick still on the decline, I don't see too many atm and tend to ignore him for deck building aspects. Going -1 SV +1 Deluge seems feasible though - if only for a nicer casting cost.

I think I prefer Thoughtcast & TfK over Transmute Artifact, simply because that kind of C/A rocks by enabling to find
non-artifact solutions plus being easier to cast (again UU..).
I could see Transmute Artifcat being included as a one-of though, as it's never random due to it's tutor nature.

I didn't take in account the manabase because I think it can be easily accomodated to include more black cards, as long as they don't have double colored casting costs: you're already playing so many raimbow sources that I don't feel deckbuilding should be restrained.

Obviously the third strix is an option as well: it depends on the meta.

I'm still unsure if thirst and thoughtcast are both needed in three copies, it may be that I'm accustomed to my version (4 tezzeret and 4 jace give you plenty of cards), but I think that at least one copy of transmute artifact should be played to give consistency to your 1-of artifacts, especially ensnaring bridge which is a priority in some matchups.

[klaus]

I didn't take in account the manabase because I think it can be easily accomodated to include more black cards, as long as they don't have double colored casting costs: you're already playing so many raimbow sources that I don't feel deckbuilding should be restrained.

Obviously the third strix is an option as well: it depends on the meta.

I'm still unsure if thirst and thoughtcast are both needed in three copies, it may be that I'm accustomed to my version (4 tezzeret and 4 jace give you plenty of cards), but I think that at least one copy of transmute artifact should be played to give consistency to your 1-of artifacts, especially ensnaring bridge which is a priority in some matchups.

I agree. Here are some more suggestions, which I incorporated:

4 Jace
1 Tezzeret
4 FoW
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Chalice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 TfK
2 Thoughtcast
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Baleful Strix
1 Intuition
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
(32)

3 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmer Void
1 Academy Ruins
4 Vault of Whispers
2 City of Brass
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
(28)

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist (another goodie white makes possible, w/o Canonist, the combo MU seems so so)
2 Fluster Storm
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring

[kingtk3]

I agree. Here are some more suggestions, which I incorporated:

4 Jace
1 Tezzeret
4 FoW
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Chalice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 TfK
2 Thoughtcast
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Baleful Strix
1 Intuition
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
(32)

3 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmer Void
1 Academy Ruins
4 Vault of Whispers
2 City of Brass
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
(28)

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist (another goodie white makes possible, w/o Canonist, the combo MU seems so so)
2 Fluster Storm
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring

Nice, but you're missing a card in the side ;)

[klaus]

Nice, but you're missing a card in the side ;)
Oops. Let's make it the META slot then.

While optimizing my list with your smart help, I realized that what used to be a TurboPrison variant has turned almost into mainstream Tezz.dec, which is cool though.
I still think the white splash is worth exploring further. At this point at least, I feel that Supreme Verdict alone makes the splash appealing. With all that rainbow mana available EE should probably also be at least a 1of too.

[kingtk3]

Oops. Let's make it the META slot then.

While optimizing my list with your smart help, I realized that what used to be a TurboPrison variant has turned almost into mainstream Tezz.dec, which is cool though.
I still think the white splash is worth exploring further. At this point at least, I feel that Supreme Verdict alone makes the splash appealing. With all that rainbow mana available EE should probably also be at least a 1of too.

It's a pleasure to elaborate in concert ^_^

EE is definetely an option! While it cannot be cast through Teeg and cannot be transmuted for (if you want X > 0), it's a solid card and a catch all solution versus permanents, something that this deck may have trouble with at the moment (of course I'm meaning non-creature permanents).

Good call.

[Sisyphos]

Turns out this deck is still ridiculously good right now. Took down a 26-man local tournament today, battling through 8 rounds of magic to take home the prize. That's usually a non-sea dual land of your choice, but I just got store credit and used it toward a Time Vault. One more step toward Vintage, woo!

Sigh, guess I just suck. I tried what was basically your exact 75 in a local tournament couple of days ago and had the exact same mana problems I had when I previously tried a list with Mox Diamond, going 1-3 over all. I usually won the games where I got above three mana, but I always end up taking a lot more mulligans then I do with the traditional Signet/Talisman list and still end up being stuck on 2-3 mana way too often. Against D&T I had to do stuff like Forcing my own Mox Diamond to get Ensnaring Bridge active as I was stuck on 2 lands and a Mox against his Port.


@Klaus:

The question why Mox Opal is not core of the deck is simple, it does nothing to further the game plan most of the deck is build around. It neither allows for T1 Chalice nor for T2 Planeswalker. Mox Opal was much better suited to the old "Shot in the Dark" lists played by Gearhart. Your list reminds me alot of those. Less sol lands, Mox Opal/Chrome, the white splash with Moat/Humility. Perhaps you should look up some of those lists for ideas. One of the most powerful cards the white splash opens up for Tezzeret decks is Enlightened Tutor. Gearhart usually did not play Chalice, instead including Counterbalance, which can serve a similar function against decks focused on low mana curves. Dropping Chalice also opens up stuff like Sensei's Divining Top which in turn is useful to enable Mox Opal faster and more consistently. Even if you include Chalice in the deck I would probably play at least a couple of E.Tutors, the card is just nuts in these kind of decks.

[Undomian]

Sigh, guess I just suck. I tried what was basically your exact 75 in a local tournament couple of days ago and had the exact same mana problems I had when I previously tried a list with Mox Diamond, going 1-3 over all. I usually won the games where I got above three mana, but I always end up taking a lot more mulligans then I do with the traditional Signet/Talisman list and still end up being stuck on 2-3 mana way too often. Against D&T I had to do stuff like Forcing my own Mox Diamond to get Ensnaring Bridge active as I was stuck on 2 lands and a Mox against his Port.

Sorry to hear that... I don't even find D&T to be a particularly hard matchup. What was your boarding like?

[James]

Hi all! I would like to share my 75 which are a little bit different from most UB common lists.

I have not tested yet the deck in any tourney but I feel pretty confident when testing with this:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Baleful Strix
1 Lodestone Golem

3 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
2 Thopther Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Transmute Artifact

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Vindicate

1 Set of the Synod
1 Vault of the Whispers
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground sea
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinishpere
2 Pithing Needle

Let me point out a couple of things of the list above:

1) Liliana of the Veil: I really love her, she could be a turn 2 PW (as Tezzerate or Jace) and is extremely powerful against aggro, control or combo. Although BB is more difficult to reach than UB or even UU, with 6 Talisman/Dimir, I have never had many problems in mana fixing (if Lili is not possible, feel free to play Tezzeret!). I would like to know why people don't play/try Lili as a 2-of with a meta full of True-Name Nemesis. It may seems to be redundant but Liliana is helpful against so many archetypes...

2) White splash: this is the most controversial thing of the deck. I am fine with the UB version but I guess that 2 MD Vinidicates can be helpful. This deck suffers against a resolved planeswalker (Liliana or Jace are very difficult to deal with if you dont't draw a Tezzeret), a Blood Moon, a Pernicious Deed, a Pithing Needle or a Dark Depths. Although none of the cards above are an automatic GG, I think that to keep a Vindicate in hand for such a threat (or other if necessary) is always great unless your mana base is destabiliced in excess. I think that replacing a Talisman of Dominance for a Talisman of Progress (which provides U or W) and replacing a land for a Tundra (and adding a couple of fetchlands which are also helpful for shuffling effects with Jace) is a good deal. In addition, Engineered Explosives may be set up at 3CC and we gain access to certain SB cards like Oblivion Ring and Ethersworn Canonist.

I don't want to make the deck a "Shot in the Dark" (with Enlightened Tutor, Swords to Plowshares and Humillity which are also fantastic cards) but rather to play a mini white splash to include a couple of Vindicates and EE for 3CC while still playing Chalice of the Void as mush as possible.

I would like to know your opinion on this. Comments and suggestions are welcomed!

Thanks

J.

[Sisyphos]

Sorry to hear that... I don't even find D&T to be a particularly hard matchup. What was your boarding like?

I'll try to do a short report, but I did not take any notes on my boarding. I played the list you posted with two small changes: The fourth Delta instead of the second Misty and an Urborg instead of the third basic. Never drew the Urborg, so that change was completely irrelevant.

R1: UR Pyromancer/Delver 2-1
Game 1 I mulligan down to five after a 7 land hand is followed by six without any lands. He drops T1 Delver, flips T2, drops a second Delver on T2, flips that on T3. I don't think I ever played a spell before dying. Game 2&3 the combination of Deluge+Chalice appears to be good against a deck build around x/1 creatures and cmc1 spells. Game 3 takes longer then necessary as he is manascrewed on top of everything, but I miss several land drops as well (foreshadowing).

R2: Merfolk 0-2
Game 1 has a bit of an interesting decision. He drops one or two guys, I develop my mana. At one point he casts another Lord (I think his second) which would present a two turn clock if it resolves. My hand contains a FoW+pitch without any removal or a way to find Bridge in sight. I have enough mana do play around two Dazes. He has four cards in hand. Without the Lord on the stack I have at least three turns, possibly even four turns if his hand does not contain two more lords. Do you force the lord? I decided to try to buy myself time to find Bridge. He has the Force to get the Lord to stick. Two turns later he attacks for exactly lethal even if I sack all my artifacts to my topdecked Foundry (blocking was a non-factor, his creatures had like triple Islandwalk). Top card of my library: Bridge.... Second game the only removal I ever see is an Abyss and that gets FoWed. He nearly gives me another turn but remembers to attack me instead of a planeswalker and just kills me.

R3 D&T 0-2
Game 1 is probably just my fault. I haven't played a deck with FoW for a while, so I just nod when he plays his Aether Vial on the play. After I draw for my turn, I look at the FoW+pitch card in my hand and want to kick myself. On my second turn he starts porting my, follows up on his turn with a Wasteland on one of my two lands and Vialing in a Thalia. For the rest of the game I get ported every turn while he abuses his Vial and two Flickerwisps-e-o-t-tricks to prevent me from having access to an additional land on my turns. I never get to four mana and his Thalia never dies, so I don't do much. Game 2 I keep a hand with 2 lands and a Mox for mana. He does not have a Vial but I miss a lot of land drops so even after buying a couple of turns with 2 Baleful Strix he has enough time to assemble Serra Avenger with Jitte and SoFI, giving him the ability to ignore the Strixes. At this point he has 5-6 lands (with one Port I think) in play while I am still stuck at the two lands from my opening hand. I find a Sol land to get to three mana for one turn and drop an Ensnaring Bridge. I take one more hit from the Serra Avenger dropping me low enough that I would die from another hit. This leads to the "Force-your-own-Mox"-play to get some cards out of my hand and activate the Bridge to at least stop the Avenger. Afterwards I find one more mana source and a Deluge to clear his board but he Wastes me down to two lands again. We play a couple of turns of draw-go as he finds a second port to prevent me form doing anything but does not find another creature and I don't draw any more land. Eventually he finds a Cataclysm. I have the decision to either save Bridge or Mox (can't remember when I played it exactly) as my artifact. I have another Bridge in hand so I choose to keep the Mox as another land will allow me to drop Bridge again and I still have like 20 lands in my library, whilst keeping Bridge means I have to find several lands to do anything and he does not have any creature in play so he has to find lands and a creature. Doesn't matter anyway, I die with the two permanents kept from the Cataclysm without ever casting a spell again, so Bridge would not have prevented anything from attacking anyway. As for boarding I know that I put in 3 Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm and the Bridge, but I don't remember what I took out exactly. I think it was 1-2 Jace and 1 Abyss, but I can't remember the other cards.

R4 UR OmniShow 0-2
Game 1 he goes for a quick SnT, I put in an Abyss against his Omniscience which ends up buying me a couple of turns as he only had the Emrakul in hand to kill me. Surprisingly all his cantrips find him the Burning Wish before I find anything to kill him, nothing much to tell. Game 2 I mulligan and the six cards include FoW, pitch card, Abyss, Lodestone, Mox, Land. Do you mulligan? As I was a bit p*ssed at this point I just decided to gamble on finding lands as the other cards are about as good as you can hope for against this deck. A couple of turns later I start discarding and never find a second land. Eventually he goes for SnT with protection against my FoW. I don't remember if I put in Abyss or Lodestone, but he either has both kills or I choose the wrong hate card as I just die.

[Undomian]

It seems like a lot of your losses there came down to bad luck with your land drops. :frown: While it is certainly possible that you'll draw a lot of Diamonds in some games, the extra land should make it a little easier to hit your land drops in the first place.

What is your logic behind siding out The Abyss against D&T? While they can tie it up with Mother of Runes and it can sometimes be difficult to cast against a mana denial strategy, the upside of the card is extremely high. My boarding against that deck usually looks something like:

+ Bridge, Golgari Charm, Deluges
- 4 Chalice, 1 Force

As for the other matchups, the Burning Wish Show and Tell deck is just a brutal matchup. Every one of those decks I've ever played against has played a Meltdown as a Wish target, which is a card that tends to clean up the game in their favor pretty quickly. I haven't played against Merfolk enough to really have a solid plan against it other than rushing Bridge with Force backup, but I know that I've won a fair amount of games against them by simply not playing Islands. Mox Diamond really shines in that respect.


Esper Tezz list

Looks okay, though I would question exactly how necessary Vindicate really is in this deck when you could be playing some number of Force in its place. You say you like it to answer resolved problem permanents, but you shouldn't be stuck in those situations if they never resolve in the first place. I also really dislike the maindeck Lodestone Golem, though that might just be the way I play this deck.

[klaus]

I've playtested my UWB take on TEZZ a bit more and moved somewhat closer to the core list. The white splash still pulls its weight however. ET and O. Ring are nice to have, but Supreme Verdict is THE argument to give it a shot imo.
I said it before and I'll say it again: In a world full of Dazes / Spell Pierces and FoWs, being able to resolve a genocide no matter what seems vital for a deck like this, that more often than not seems to fold to Aggro Control with taxing counters.
On a different note: has SDTop been discussed before? I feel like it could be cool despite interfering with Chalice.

Here's my list for reference:

Jazzerator:

4 Jace
1 Tezzeret
4 FoW
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Chalice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible
2 TfKnowledge
2 Baleful Strix
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor (only CMC1 spell)
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
(33)

4 Mox Diamond
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Ancient Den
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
(27)

SB
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Toxic Deluge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle

[Sisyphos]

It seems like a lot of your losses there came down to bad luck with your land drops. :frown: While it is certainly possible that you'll draw a lot of Diamonds in some games, the extra land should make it a little easier to hit your land drops in the first place.

I agree that the games were probably on the bad side of the expected variance. What makes me a bit wary though, is that this is not the first time this has happened to me when I experimented with a Mox Diamond list. I tested a similar build couple of month ago, also with Wasteland/Mox and I had the same impression, that it has a higher chance of mana problems then the Talisman/Signet lists. For example a hand with 2 lands and a Talisman/Signet is very fine, even if you have no Sol-land. Any other land will get you to 4 mana on turn 3, which is slower then you want to be, but still ok. Even if you don't draw a land but only another Signet, you will be able to get to 4 mana. 2 lands and a Mox means you need either a Sol-land or two lands to get the same results. Another Mox is basically a dead draw. I'm not even sure anymore if 2 lands + Mox is a keep if you don't already have a Sol-land. On paper the difference should not be that high, but in my (admittedly very limited testing compared to yours) experience playing the list in reality, it seems like a lot. Maybe I just need to work on my evaluations of starting hands and mulligan more aggressively. Mox is also significantly worse with Transmute.


What is your logic behind siding out The Abyss against D&T? While they can tie it up with Mother of Runes and it can sometimes be difficult to cast against a mana denial strategy, the upside of the card is extremely high. My boarding against that deck usually looks something like:
+ Bridge, Golgari Charm, Deluges
- 4 Chalice, 1 Force

My logic is that I was on the play, which is were Chalice is best. Even if you assume that they board out Swords, you still negate at least 8 cards (Mother and Vial). Especially Vial has given me some problems as you allow them to use their lands freely to mess with yours. Also with Deluges, Charm, EE and the remaining Abyss you still have 7 sweeper/mass removal cards, which is not a significant drop from 8. From the four cards I think Abyss is the weakest in this match-up. They can not only mess with it with Mother of Runes but also with Karakas. It is also the hardest to cast as you have pointed out and if you only draw an Abyss, even DnT can swarm you. They are much worse at doing so then say Goblins or Elves, but simply playing 25+ creatures and playing 1 per turn to keep 1-2 attackers up can be enough if you don't find a sweeper. I value Abyss higher against Tempo decks. The mana denial is probably about the same and it is much easier to lock them out of creatures with a resolved Abyss.


As for the other matchups, the Burning Wish Show and Tell deck is just a brutal matchup. Every one of those decks I've ever played against has played a Meltdown as a Wish target, which is a card that tends to clean up the game in their favor pretty quickly. I haven't played against Merfolk enough to really have a solid plan against it other than rushing Bridge with Force backup, but I know that I've won a fair amount of games against them by simply not playing Islands. Mox Diamond really shines in that respect.

Yes, UR OmniShow is really bad. The deck has answers to both combos, but it often is a coinflip if you have/choose the right one. I actually have never had a Meltdown played against me. SneakShow is much easier to handle. I don't have much experience against Merfolk either. Didn't see one in quite some time around here. Bridge is more or less an auto win here I agree. TNN is not very good against us either. You just need to survive long enough. If theyy curve out perfectly with lords and have a FoW for your sweeper/Bridge, it gets problematic though. I don't really know if your list is that much better then Talisman/Signet lists at playing around islandwalk. Sure, you need two lands to play a Signet, but Darkslick Shores has served me well in that regard. Talisman/Signet lists also have an additional Sol-land compared to your list. Your list plays 5 fetches and 6 Islands out of the 12 blue lands. My last Talisman/Signet list played 3 fetches and 5 Islands out of my 12 blue lands. I'm too bad at math to calculate probabilities factoring Mox vs Signet though.

[James]

Looks okay, though I would question exactly how necessary Vindicate really is in this deck when you could be playing some number of Force in its place. You say you like it to answer resolved problem permanents, but you shouldn't be stuck in those situations if they never resolve in the first place. I also really dislike the maindeck Lodestone Golem, though that might just be the way I play this deck.

I completely agree with your argument. However, I think that multiple FoWs could be problematic from time to time, I mean (i) we are not very high on blue sources which means that we can not usually choose what to pick with the FoW; and (ii) Jace,Tezzeret and Transmute Artifact are extremely valuable blue sources and really powerful on their own (I think I would just pick one of these if I am playing against a combo deck and otherwise is a gg for him/her), Baleful Strix is card advantage and a fantastic aggro stopper and Thopther Foundry is just amazing. That is why I just thought that FoWs seem to be a sideboard card and that Vindicates could be interesting in such slots.

Anyway, I would need to test more with FoWs making these changes:
- 1 Lodestone Golem
- 1 Trinishphere
- 1 Ensnaring Brisge
+ 3 FoWs

Thanks!

[TonyRo]

This is the most beautiful deck I've ever seen in my life. I have been trying to find a good way to shoehorn Tezzeret the Seeker into Legacy, and Joe Lossett has finally done it:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6622265

[Mortox]

This is the most beautiful deck I've ever seen in my life. I have been trying to find a good way to shoehorn Tezzeret the Seeker into Legacy, and Joe Lossett has finally done it:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6622265

It's a nice list! Not trying to knock Joe as I'll admit he's a very good player and I enjoy watching his stream from time to time, but watching his replays in the last couple of dailys he got very lucky round opponents IMO. Painter Servant multiple times which is probably one of the best matchups for a Chalice deck (as they run a billion 0 and 1 drops) which definitely contributed to his impressive placing. He did experience some bad draws/mulligans in a few games though so it's not as if it was all on the up-and-up. I guess what I'm trying to say is that he was fortunate not to hit too many bad matchups.

Other than that the only thing I'm not really agreement with is the 2 maindeck Misdirects, I personally just run 4 FoW although I could see an argument for 1 misdirect, 2 seems excessive/unnecessary. Sure it serves as essentially the same thing in a counterfight and can be a blowout against some discard, but it can also be a blank when FoW would have saved the day against non-targeted spells.

UB in general is weak against non-creature permanents. Artifacts and Enchantments such as opposing Bridges, Leylines of Sanctity, Leylines of the Void (against Sword/Thopter), Chokes (Darkslick Shore and artifact mana can save our ass here but I digress,) Back to Basics (uhg, have lost to this so many times playing UB Tezz) and whatever other non-creature permanents you can imagine. Against all of these sorts of things you want the FoW in hand and not a misdirect. Now I suppose if you expect to be facing off against more Hymns than any of the aforementioned stuff you'd be right to run the Misdirect.

Another thing I'll say is that I definitely agree with Joe running 2x Tezzeret the Seeker. That card can do so much work its unbelievable. It is on the expensive side but really 5 is not so much for this deck, and in my experience you'll most often be using his tutor ability to complete your Thopter/Sword combo, or for an Ensnaring Bridge, and in both cases he comes down at just about the precise time you'd want to be playing either of those things anyway. I was running 3x Liliana for awhile but I eventually cut her to 2 and then 0. She can come down T2 but this isn't really a great deck for making use of her +1 ability - you don't often want to be pitching your cards as you want your lands and you want your artifacts, so to play her just for the occasional sacrifice and then to sit there and look pretty wasn't really enough for me. Right now I'm running 4x Tezz AoB, 2x Jace, 2x Tezz Seeker and I'm liking that configuration although I'm always considering moving back up to 3x Jace.

Anyway glad to see this deck getting some attention, anything with Tezz is always fun.

[James]

I will definetely cut Lilianas and try Tezzeret, the seeker and Trading Post to do some tricks.

What about Batterskull if not playing The Abyss? I think 5cc is feasible, may be tutored with Transmute Artifact and you may return it to your hand if the germ is killed. Not so fast as in a Stoneforge build but pretty solid anyway (Should be more solid than Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite?).

[Undomian]

I will definetely cut Lilianas and try Tezzeret, the seeker and Trading Post to do some tricks.

What about Batterskull if not playing The Abyss? I think 5cc is feasible, may be tutored with Transmute Artifact and you may return it to your hand if the germ is killed. Not so fast as in a Stoneforge build but pretty solid anyway (Should be more solid than Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite?).

It is probably fine if you're not playing Abysses in your list. I played around with it whenever I was only running with 1 Abyss and it was a solid card.

[Ellomdian]

This is the most beautiful deck I've ever seen in my life. I have been trying to find a good way to shoehorn Tezzeret the Seeker into Legacy, and Joe Lossett has finally done it:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6622265

I am curious about some of the card selection - it's interesting that he is running 3 Seas, and the 2 MisD's could just be because he doesn't have the 4 FoW.

But my biggest question has got to be the Tezz - if he's a 5-mana Transmute, great. I just have had problems in the past growing him to any advantage (outside of cards like Staff of Nin) when I've played with him. I feel like going down to 1 sword is fine when you are increasing the ways to get them into play.

I am going to have to try some similar modifications and report back :)

[Koby]

I am curious about some of the card selection - it's interesting that he is running 3 Seas, and the 2 MisD's could just be because he doesn't have the 4 FoW.

But my biggest question has got to be the Tezz - if he's a 5-mana Transmute, great. I just have had problems in the past growing him to any advantage (outside of cards like Staff of Nin) when I've played with him. I feel like going down to 1 sword is fine when you are increasing the ways to get them into play.

I am going to have to try some similar modifications and report back :)

Joe is very cognizant of his card choices. They are not rooted in "budgetary" alternatives. That said, he does favor Misdirection in control decks to the 4th FoW, and sometimes the 3rd as well.

[kingtk3]

I can see the choice behind playing a number of misdirection over fow, but playing the third darkslick shores over the fourth underground sea cannot be right.

Yesterday I played tezzerator after a while and took it to a small tournament (14 players). Here's the list (it's not sorted, sorry)

4 baleful strix
4 chalice of the void
2 dimir charm
4 dimir signet
2 ensnaring bridge
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 ratchet bomb
2 sword of the meek
2 talisman of dominance
1 tezzeret the seeker
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
2 thopter foundry
1 trading post
3 transmute artifact

4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
2 darkslick shores
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
1 darkwater catacombs
1 seat of the synod
1 academy ruins
1 island
1 swamp

Side
1 damnation
1 perish
1 virtue's ruin
1 toxic deluge
2 engineered plague
1 night's of souls betrayal
3 lodestone golem
1 dimir charm
2 tormod's crypt
1 notion thief
1 trinisphere


Elves! 2-1
G1: I mull to six (only one land) and I'm not fast enough to lock the game
G2: I mull to five (no lands-threats) and drop chalice@1 on T1 and engineered plague on T2, and from here I win with golem
G3: I drop T1 chalice@1 and then control the board with sweepers. A couple of turns later I find a threat and win from there
Side: -2 swords, -2 foundry, -1 trading post, -1 dimir signet, -2 jace, -4 baleful strix, +1 damnation, +1 toxic deluge, +1 perish, +2 engineered plague, +1 night's of souls betrayal, +3 lodestone golem, +1 trinisphere, +1 notion thief, +1 dimir charm

BUG delver 0-2
G1: I mull to six due to a one lander. He drops DRS and I put him on deathblade thinking I have some time, thus I don't go for city->talisman on T1 but instead I play a u-sea. He wastes it, tourach me (pitching talisman and tezzeret), then wastes me again and drops delver and goyf.
G2: I mull to six due to a one lander, and then keep an hand with double land, mana stone and some action. He wastes my tomb and I fail in drawing another land for the rest of the game.
Side: completely wrong, I think I sided out trading post and 2 chalices for damnation, perish and deluge. I should have sided out fow I think.

Junk Loam 2-0
G1: I mull to six due to a one lander. He assemble hexmage/depths on turn three thanks to living wish and urborg. However I have bridge, thopter/sword and jace to stop him. I win some turn later.
G2: I mull to six due to a one lander. He plays a turn 2 kotr thanks mox diamond. I play a turn 2 jace and eat his tempo. in the following turns he replays kotr and lays a couple of lands while I enstablish board presence with strix, bridge, thopters and kill him with tezzeret
Side: -4 chalice, -1 post, +1 virtue's ruin, +1 perish, +1 deluge, +1 notion thief (he plays sylvan library), +1 dimir charm (for gaddock)

Miracles 2-0
G1: I mull to six due to a one lander. He doesn't do much and I establish locks and win with thopters.
G2: I mull... NO WAIT, THIS TIME I KEEP!!! It was a six lander but I judged ot would be good against miracle and didn't want to mull again. I have more threats then his hardcounters and angels are not frightening with bridge. I win with tezz-ndrils.
Side: -4 strix, +1 notion thief, +3 golem

semifinals - elves! 2-1
G1: I mull to six due to a one lander. He begins, I play chalice then forced to fow (no pun intended) a zenith for 3 pitching Big tezz. I draw and play small tezz next turn but he natural orders for the win.
G2 and G3: I bury him in hate with chalice, swepers, golem and plagues.
Side: -2 swords, -2 foundry, -1 trading post, -1 dimir signet, -2 jace, -4 baleful strix, +1 damnation, +1 toxic deluge, +1 perish, +2 engineered plague, +1 night's of souls betrayal, +3 lodestone golem, +1 trinisphere, +1 notion thief, +1 dimir charm


What I learned? This deck mulls to six due to one lander.... I'll probably drop a sword for a city of traitors and maybe the trading post for a staff of nin.

I'll be attending GP paris next week and I'm seriously thinking that this deck might be a good choice. I have to test it against D&T and more tempo decks though.

What are your toughts on the list?

[Sisyphos]

I think I know why you mulligan so much. You play 20 lands. Most Talisman/Signet builds play 22, the Mox Diamond list even 23. I don't think going down to 20 lands is what you want to do in a deck as mana hungry as this and without Brainstorm/Ponder. I would probably cut the Dimir Charms or 1 Charm + 1 Ratchet Bomb to add 2 lands. The rest of the main deck looks fine to me. Glad somebody else is trying the fifth Tezz.

I would not drop Trading Post for Staff of Nin. One of the arguments for Trading Post was that you can discard cards to activate Bridge more quickly. Staff of Nin is stuck in your hand longer due to its cost and extra cards make Bridge much worse.

Curious about the Catacombs. How did that work out for you? First time I see it in a list. Seems reasonable on a first glance, but not sure if it's really better than the other options.

For the board, I can't see Night of Soul's Betrayal in a deck that wins like 50% of its games with Thopter Foundry. This interaction sucks and the added application of Night of Soul's Betrayal compared to the other removal options seem marginal. I'm also still quite partial to the Leyline/Helm boarding plan, especially with decks like JundDephts and Lands getting good results lately. You play 8 creature removal cards in your board, which seems a bit excessive. Perhaps some of those slots could be used along with the current two Crypts to add Leyline.

[H]

I haven't played this in a while, but I am contemplating putting it back together soon.

One thing I was thinking of trying was two Thassa, God of the Sea in the place of the two Thirst for Knowledge's.

I found while I was playing that I was often in need of a single card off the top to be able to stabilize, or to find a threat. Thirst was fine for a burst of cards, but what makes this deck tick is more permanent advantage/resources.

I like Thassa in theory because she will most often not be a creature, making her almost impossible for your opponent to remove. One problem I see is the inherent dis-synergy between Lodestone and the rest of our deck (generally), since Lodestone is arguably the best clock combined with Thassa herself.

[Ellomdian]

Drew Levin has an article up on SCG - premium, so I won't link it - that discusses MUD variants, and I think he makes some valid points for Tezz as well. Namely:

Chalice of the Void is a great card when it works, but getting behind on board against anything with Stoneforge generally negates it's value. It was a fantastic tool 18 mos ago, even 12 months ago, but that as the environment has shifted away from decks featuring a pile of 1-drops (compliments to DRS for making midrange a thing in eternal again...) the value of a card that effectively does nothing after turn 1 has decreased significantly.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that if you are willing to drop the 4-MD Chalices, you are not only freeing up slots, you are negating the biggest argument for not running Brainstorm in this deck.

That feels dirty... I need to lie down.

[biglongjohns]

Chalice of the Void is a great card when it works, but getting behind on board against anything with Stoneforge generally negates it's value. It was a fantastic tool 18 mos ago, even 12 months ago, but that as the environment has shifted away from decks featuring a pile of 1-drops (compliments to DRS for making midrange a thing in eternal again...) the value of a card that effectively does nothing after turn 1 has decreased significantly.

I'm in agreeance that Chalice can be a bad late draw, but this guy's article is bullshit. Chalice and Trinisphere are both still great. A chalice can be cast for more than just one... Chalice on 2 shuts down goyf, bob, hymn, merfolk, daze, painter's servant and plenty of other heavily played cards. I've cast it one three before to counter Show & Tell.

[kingtk3]

I've read the article, and while it seems to bring some good points it completely fails when talking about the side: so now the answer to combo is tangle wire and not chalice of the void? Basically ANY combo deck has an hard time (or scoops) to chalice@1.
Even decks like sneak and show (which don't automatically lose) are stripped of all their manipulation, giving us the time to win.

I almost felt for it :(

Chalice@1 is not an hardlock, it's a preemptive answer to the most efficient legacy spells, which most decks are composed of.

If the author fears stoneforge based decks and thinks that the solution is to play more dumb 6 mana spells clearly have never played a wurmcoil to see it sworded, and while you are left topdecking the opponent manipulates its draws with ponder and brainstorm. Chalice@1 solves all of them.

I'll write the exact post in the MUD thread, but I think that some points are good here too.

[Koby]

The answer to Stoneforge Mystic has been, and still is Tezzeret AoB's -1 on that artifact. Creatures cannot equip or attach.

Alternatively, Ensnaring Bridge is still the best way to lock out combat.

I support Chalice as a means to lockout a lot of the powerful Legacy decks in the format.

[Ellomdian]

The answer to Stoneforge Mystic has been, and still is Tezzeret AoB's -1 on that artifact. Creatures cannot equip or attach.


Yes, because turning their 4/4 into a 5/5 is the perfect solution.

[Koby]

Yes, because turning their 4/4 into a 5/5 is the perfect solution.

You can block and kill it with Baleful Strix; they lose lifelink, and they cannot equip. It's not perfect, but it buys some time. Ensnaring Bridge is the preferred option obviously.

[Jay_Gatz]

Life link is rarely an issue, a good majority of games it won't matter what your opponent's life is once you have control

[kingtk3]

Batterskull isn't the only equipment played: animated jitte and swords are less fearsome, and can be killed by sweepers

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Sisyphos]

Unless they have a TNN next to it, why ever animate an opposing Batterskull instead of your own Talisman and let the puny 4/4 twiddle its thumbs in front of your 5/5?? Jitte or SoFI are another matter, but I never even thought about animating a Batterskull. I usually find that having a bigger creature is an acceptable answer to an opposing creature.

Other question: Anybody got any thoughts concerning the UWB version getting into day 2 of the GP? List is posted as part of the day two coverage.

[Jay_Gatz]

Might try the esper list out in a local on sunday

[Ellomdian]

I'm certainly not going to recommend you jam this at your next GP, but here's what I'm at right now. Yes, the CotV are in the Board. Bring them in against Delver.

Planeswalkers (9)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

Lands (22)
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells (29)

3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Dimir Signet
2 Grim Monolith
3 Smokestack
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Baleful Strix
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard

1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Misdirection
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize

I don't have to play against Elves often, but you can feel free to change out the MisD's in the board for Perish. Stoneforge really does not like a ramp'd Walker or Stack. Also, given this configuration, I may push a Abyss in the main.

I have been toying with pulling the Thopter/Sword combo out, and putting Wurmcoils and Solemns in, but that seems to give other people apoplexy.

[Madmankevinx]

I have recently gone from 2 The Abyss to 1 Abyss and 1 Curse of Death's Hold. It has been pretty sweet as long as it doesn't get countered of course. Anyone else tried this out?

[Undomian]

I'm certainly not going to recommend you jam this at your next GP, but here's what I'm at right now. Yes, the CotV are in the Board. Bring them in against Delver.

Planeswalkers (9)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

Lands (22)
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells (29)

3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Dimir Signet
2 Grim Monolith
3 Smokestack
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Baleful Strix
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard

1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Misdirection
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize

I don't have to play against Elves often, but you can feel free to change out the MisD's in the board for Perish. Stoneforge really does not like a ramp'd Walker or Stack. Also, given this configuration, I may push a Abyss in the main.

I have been toying with pulling the Thopter/Sword combo out, and putting Wurmcoils and Solemns in, but that seems to give other people apoplexy.

This reminds me a lot of the old Bridgewalker lists, which were certainly very strong in their own way. Have you toyed around with some number of maindeck Lodestone Golem in this configuration? That card has always been sweet with Stax, and the synergy is probably enough to get around the antisynergy between it and Bridge.



I have recently gone from 2 The Abyss to 1 Abyss and 1 Curse of Death's Hold. It has been pretty sweet as long as it doesn't get countered of course. Anyone else tried this out?
w
This seems entirely dependent on what your meta is like. If it is infested with TNN, Curse seems fine, but that card is obviously very bad against Tarmogoyf. I always kind of thought of this card as a replacement for Plague in the board rather than a maindeck replacement for The Abyss because of that.

[Madmankevinx]

I have noticed a lot of talk regarding dropping chalice to the SB in the current meta. Has anyone here actually done this and if so how have your match-ups been so far? I see storm and affinity quite a bit in my meta and chalice on 0 and 1 is often just hilarious... I'm not sure I'm on the train with SB Chalices just yet regardless of what certain "pros" think atm...

[Ellomdian]

Have you toyed around with some number of maindeck Lodestone Golem in this configuration?

I've gone back and forth on MD Lodestone. It's yet another good Turn 2 4CMC card, but it dies to everything relevant.



I have noticed a lot of talk regarding dropping chalice to the SB in the current meta. Has anyone here actually done this and if so how have your match-ups been so far? I see storm and affinity quite a bit in my meta and chalice on 0 and 1 is often just hilarious... I'm not sure I'm on the train with SB Chalices just yet regardless of what certain "pros" think atm...

There are 2 ways to tune a deck - you can tune for the decks you regularly play against (useful if you play almost entirely in Local-level events) or you can tune for the DTB (better if you are playing large / regional events.)

I have been disappointed with the CotV performance against non-RUG/Storm/Elves players, and I have been trying different things out in place of them. The reality is I am dropping many points against Delver G1, but I am doing so in an attempt to gain ground against against Stoneforge, BUG, and Show.

[Madmankevinx]

Just curious, but does anyone here run a Phyrexian Revoker in their main? I have been since day 1 in place of the Nihil Spellbomb and have never regretted it. I suppose I just lose to Dredge game 1--if I ever see it, but I have noticed that reanimator is manageable without it in the main game 1 since chalice does some good work here and the revoker and bridge are nifty too.

[Ellomdian]

Just curious, but does anyone here run a Phyrexian Revoker in their main? I have been since day 1 in place of the Nihil Spellbomb and have never regretted it. I suppose I just lose to Dredge game 1--if I ever see it, but I have noticed that reanimator is manageable without it in the main game 1 since chalice does some good work here and the revoker and bridge are nifty too.

My big problem with Revoker has always been that it dies to way more stuff than Pithing Needle, including your own sweepers.

[Madmankevinx]

After a short 4 round local last week against jund, goblins, tes and u/g infect, I have decided to shelf this deck for a while. Chalice didn't do much aside from the tes match and the rest of the deck just felt like I was hoping to get lucky every draw and felt like I was behind trying to catch up the whole time. The meta has changed enough where I actually think chalice should be in the board and maybe we need some brainstorm/ponder action to find our silver bullets faster incase of bad hands/mulligans... Of course then we need to change the mana base and include more fetch land action...

[atopebenidorm]

I try a deck with a very good matchup Vs tiers like Delver, Deathblade, ANT, elves and Miracles.

The deck is a BUG version with Abrupt decay and sideboard golgari charm. I prefeer include 4 ensnaring bridge because ruins all creature decks, with liliana is a nearly combo strategy:

4 Baleful Strix

4 Tezzeret, Agent of bolas
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 Liliana of the veil

4 Chalice of the void
4 Dimir signet
4 Ensnaring bridge
2 Talisman of dominance

4 Force of will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient tomb
3 Underground sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical island
2 City of traitors
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping tar pit
1 Seat of synod

Side:

1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari charm
1 Liliana of the veil
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Thorn of amethyst
2 Trinisphere
1 Transmute artifact
1 Misdirection
3 Relic of progenitus
1 Bojuka bog

The deck is a very solid option. Chalice of the void is insane and ensnaring bridge is insane+!!. Jace and Tezzeret may work without problems.

[merfolkotpt]

Hey all,
Did anyone see the list that got posted yesterday in Drew Levin's Premium article. It is pretty different and I don't want to post the list from a premium article, but some interesting changes included:

0x Jace
4x Uba Mask

and a change to the mana base from talismans and signets to mox opals and LEDs. Just thought I would throw this out there and see what anyone else thought about it.

[kingtk3]

Hey all,
Did anyone see the list that got posted yesterday in Drew Levin's Premium article. It is pretty different and I don't want to post the list from a premium article, but some interesting changes included:

0x Jace
4x Uba Mask

and a change to the mana base from talismans and signets to mox opals and LEDs. Just thought I would throw this out there and see what anyone else thought about it.

I'm sure that the first card I would take out from the deck should I decide to play Uba Mask would be Force of Will.

While I like Uba Mask I'm not sure of its use in this deck: what matchups should it improve? It's good against control but this deck already has a strong plan against control with its planeswalker and acceleration, while it would make combo worse since we could not play fow anymore.

I don't want to express a judgment against Levin's article without having read it, but it's not the first time that he promotes some fanciful strategy like removing chalice of the void from MUD because they are not good anymore which, in my opinion, is straight wrong.

[Darkenslight]

I'm sure that the first card I would take out from the deck should I decide to play Uba Mask would be Force of Will.

While I like Uba Mask I'm not sure of its use in this deck: what matchups should it improve? It's good against control but this deck already has a strong plan against control with its planeswalker and acceleration, while it would make combo worse since we could not play fow anymore.

I don't want to express a judgment against Levin's article without having read it, but it's not the first time that he promotes some fanciful strategy like removing chalice of the void from MUD because they are not good anymore which, in my opinion, is straight wrong.

It's BS hate that doesn't fall to Abrupt Decay. IT hoses Storm, Miracles and Delver somewhat, and it ignores Stifle.

But yes, I see your point about removing Chalice from MUD and facepalm like Stephen Chow in Kung Fu Hustle.

[kingtk3]

It's BS hate that doesn't fall to Abrupt Decay. IT hoses Storm, Miracles and Delver somewhat, and it ignores Stifle.


I suppose you are referring to Uba mask here, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, Uba Mask hoses BS and miracle but I don't think it's good against storm and delver.

Storm closes the game in one turn so even if the opponent plays some ponders and probes he will get the chance to play the card he had "drawn". Moreover, mask will help him achieve hellbent without led so you may end up helping your opponent instead!!!

Against delver deck Uba is too slow for what it does and hoses only BS efficiently, and fow partially: it doesn't stop goyf or delver.

And most of all, uba is NOT a win condition, while jace is.

Basically, Uba's effect is strong, but not as strong as to renounce to Jace and fow (or any instant at all), and most importantly it doesn't help in our worst matchups but it's good in one of our best (which it is partially thanks to Jace too).

I repeat myself, I haven't read the article yet and my points are only reguarding the proposition -4 jace +4 mask.



But yes, I see your point about removing Chalice from MUD and facepalm like Stephen Chow in Kung Fu Hustle.

That's exactly how it went when I read about removing chalice:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x207/cubanzx/kung-fu-hustle-paume-de-stephen_b0b.jpg

[Ellomdian]

Did anyone see the list that got posted yesterday in Drew Levin's Premium article. It is pretty different...

Yes, it's different. It's also pretty janky - it's like he started with "Hey, let's play Mox Opals in Legacy!", and then started building a proto-Tezz shell, and then just stopped before adding more Walkers. Uba Mask is a fantastic card, but it's interaction with FoW is just... blech. Also, I am advocating removing Chalice to play more proactive cards that aren't so narrow, he's doing it because... well... Chalice is just bad now in Legacy, AmIRightGuys?

I think the format benefits from people who brew for the sake of brewing - but Drew has a very bad habit of spending most of his time re-inventing the wheel.

[Undomian]

So, this was spoiled recently:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/promotional/a84rgerig9u8/jkaskjldamnwsd9sdk2d_EN.jpg

What do we think of this finding a place in our deck? While the ultimate is somewhat useless, I think the card is useful without even taking that into consideration. It has the capacity to dig deeper for our answers, drops on turn 2 without a sol land, steals Jitte and co.,and immediately puts itself out of lightning bolt range. On the flip side, it doesn't really do much to protect itself at all and dies to Abrupt Decay (but really, our deck makes a pretty good impression of that as it is). I'm definitely going to give this a shot with my personal build of the deck. This card interacts really well with Mox Diamond in that it is easily castable and it also pitches any unwanted Moxes. It also happens to interact very well with Goblin Welder, which is certainly something worth trying out. I can see this being very strong in grindy matchups in that it gives reasonable card selection and steals equipment away from our opponents. It also helps to dig for hate in unfair matchups and pitches to Force.

The card certainly has a reasonably high power level. The trick is going to be finding room for 2 or so of them to test.

[Wess]

Why no Thassa in the deck? I just built this deck, and am going for more of a prison-ish build with mox diamonds and 2 trinisphere maindeck. I've tested Thassa, and so far its been an all-star, especially when combined with sweepers (as its indestructible). The scry ability pre activation has also been very useful.

[H]

Why no Thassa in the deck? I just built this deck, and am going for more of a prison-ish build with mox diamonds and 2 trinisphere maindeck. I've tested Thassa, and so far its been an all-star, especially when combined with sweepers (as its indestructible). The scry ability pre activation has also been very useful.

I had suggested it a few pages back, but I don't think anyone read my post, or maybe just didn't take it seriously. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten the time to test it to get some solid result though.

[Nerrzull]

I would like to share with you my list.

It has put out some phenomenal results for me.

List for reference:

Nerrzull - Tezzeret Dimir Dontrol

Main Deck:
4 Baleful Strix

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Misdirection
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere

Basically, it is Chris Anderson's winning list with some of my personal preferences and tweaks.

I'm not going in depth explaining how to play with the deck or go in each individual card choice. I presume all of you, playing and discussing deck here, know well how deck operates.

My list incorporates tech presented recently, Tezzeret the Seeker.
I would like to boast here about inventing Tezzeret the Seeker tech ... Well, I did use it before Detroit. Out of necessity (I was missing third transmute) ... rather than ingenious. ( :tongue:).
Even though I was running it, didn't fully understand potential of the card. In my games it got mostly pitched to Force of Will or Thirst for Knowledge rather than being cast.


I would like to give you some of my opinions on the latest well positioned list. So without further a due, Peter Zhang's 11th place (2014 StarCity Open Legacy - Detroit - 4/20).

List for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66558

I tried Peters setting ... and it was too cute ... too much silver bullets and some of them were more than too cute.


Now ... trying on his list (and casting Tezzeret the Seeker for one of the rare times I did) ... was kinda eye opener ... I could close CMC2 with chalice and still ramp artifacts in game with Tezzeret the Seeker.

To be honest, I was feeling extremely stupid and incompetent when realizing how many games were lost because of the big fail to notice that.
With my previous versions I was mostly loosing to CMC 2 ... believe it or not! (Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Confidant, PUNISHING FIRE... and similar OP cards on that part of the curve)


MAIN DECK DIFFERENCE:

Dimir Signet vs. Talisman of Dominance split - I like down the middle split 3:3. I know Talisman of Dominance can do some DMG (and with Ancient tomb and Toxic Deluge they can stack up high), but its even worse when you have several Dimir Signet's and no way to activate them. After all LIFE POINTS are resource, use them (but wisely).

Most of the games I don't worry to much until my life gets below 10. Depending on game state mostly.


Staff of Nin - Too inconsistent to cast and too slow to gain you advantage. Basically comes in game at the point where you are winning or loosing. So scraped it for second Sword of the Meek. Much more important ... if your single sword gets exiled ... you can be in problems up to your neck and unable to close the game. MORE THAN TOO CUTE


Ensnaring Bridge - Well ... having 2 MAIN is kinda overkill ... Meta-game dependent mostly, of course. I liked flexibility that Thirst for Knowledge was giving me (saved me some games), especially in sinergy with Sword of the Meek. Since I upped the Sword of the Meek's count ... seemed reasonable to add it back again.


Darkslick Shores - Swapped one of them for Seat of the Synod. Pulling one of these as 4-5th land is terribad (... No really! It is.).

Some points about this swap. This deck is really hungry for blue mana, Seat enters the play untaped, can be fetched with both Tezzeret's , gives transmute another target, increases your artifact count and gives you another potential 5/5 beater impervious to Abrupt Decay (very important!).


Transmute Artifact - Simply put ... I don't have third one. Added Thirst for Knowledge in that slot.

I am strongly considering to put Phyrexian Revoker here. Revoker is fetchable, it is on the curve spot you USUALLY will not close with Chalice and can negate whole strategies. His only downside is not being able to stop Wasteland. That is huge benefit post-board Pithing Needle is giving you. Problem with needle is no-bo with Chalice on 1.

I'll get back to you on this one. When I finish testing it.

SIDEBOARD DIFFERENCE:

Helm of obedience - Also cute ... but has more merit. Can be pulled trough Tezzeret the Seeker or Transmute Artifact easy. Can slow grind opponent, disrupt brainstorms, top's patterns and all sort of library manipulation. On the other hand, "Miracles" and "Enchantress" (trust me she is still deck) post-board introduce "Rest in peace" to try breaking your Thopter Foundry and "Sword of the Meek" combo. This can make that plan backfire BAD. But eventually decided that I want that SB spot more than inconsistent and situational card. CUTE.

Upped the count of Engineered Plague in this spot. Very effective in some match ups, especially tribal.

(NOTE: You have to be careful with this and Ensnaring Bridge. Plague effectively decreases efficiency of the Bridge. Good thing to think about when SB-ing.).


Flusterstorm - HA!? :eek: Still don't understand this spot on Peters list. I know it's storm counts can go over Chalice ... but I would say NO.

I swapped it for Misdirection. And i am very happy with that swap. Redirecting Abrupt Decay or Hymn to Tourach can be very satisfying and rewarding, especially if you pay the mana cost. (Little story - You can redirect your opponents Maelstrom Pulse to his True-Name Nemesis ... or two - :laugh: Sry Bro!).


The Abyss - I have to agree, this is exceptional card for this deck. Truly exceptional! Great effect that does not touch you and makes lot of problems for your opponents. But, as one off, MEH! Can't be tutored, can't be cheated into game and when you need it only way to find it is with Jace, the Mind Sculptor. So, That makes it too inconsistent and NONO. TOO CUTE.

Swapped it for second Lodestone Golem. Lodestone Golem acts like stacking prison peace that mostly does not concern you and effective beater from as early as turn 2. Much more effective.


That's my setting and opinions folks.

Tell me what you think!

[Nerrzull]

That's where I'm leaning for the moment....some kind of anti-aggro / anti-fair option.

The Post with the Most has been wonderful. It's essentially the 8th planeswalker, in lieu of the 4th Jace -- except that it can be transmuted for. It blocks basically anything (none of the commonly played Swords of X/Y give pro-white) short of a True-Name. It gains 4 life a chunk vs burn-heavy matchups / unchecked Delvers / makes Tendrils count harder / lets you continue using Ancient Tomb longer. It forms a backup recursion engine, sacrificing Thopter tokens to recur useful artifacts. It sacrifices useless lategame Chalices and manarocks and turns them into fresh cards. One of my favorite things to do with it is to sacrifice Sword of the Meek to it, draw a card, then play a Baleful Strix and bring the sword back -- makes a nice little engine.

It also enables an Intuition pile of Academy Ruins / Crucible of Worlds / Trading Post, which ensures that you get all 3.

I like it!

I will definitely try this!

[Nerrzull]

Probably siding out Thopter/sword against Gobbos, because I want to stack my sweepers and I generally am planning to win with a Big Tezz ult. But YMMV.

So there's a question for everybody - if I want to bring in 4-5 cards against Gobbos, what are YOU taking out?

I take out FoW (4) -> No point of having them (Caverns). And for the 5th if needed ... some PW. They don't stand much chance against developed gobos board.

[Undomian]

Flusterstorm - HA!? :eek: Still don't understand this spot on Peters list. I know it's storm counts can go over Chalice ... but I would say NO.


Chalice triggers when a spell is cast. While the first copy of Flusterstorm is countered by a Chalice on 1 because it was cast, the storm trigger still happens, and all of the copies resolve because Chalice never triggers for those.

[Nerrzull]

Chalice triggers when a spell is cast. While the first copy of Flusterstorm is countered by a Chalice on 1 because it was cast, the storm trigger still happens, and all of the copies resolve because Chalice never triggers for those.

Of course! I understand that.


Flusterstorm - HA!? :eek: Still don't understand this spot on Peters list. I know it's storm counts can go over Chalice ... but I would say NO.

I'm just questioning usefulness of Flusterstorm.

In most of the cases (other than Tendrils deck) ... It's just glorified Daze or Force Spike and not worth of slot (IMO).

In most of the cases you can win that match up with double chalice (CMC 0 + CMC 1). To obtain that I suggest aggressive Mulligan (it's worth to go even down to 4) to obtain Sol Land + double chalice.

I lost very few matches against tendrils decks. Mostly, when they go off straight away.

[Sisyphos]

I would like to boast here about inventing Tezzeret the Seeker tech ... Well, I did use it before Detroit.

As you limit your claim to having used Tezzeret the Seeker before April 2014, I have to point out to you that in this thread the card has previously been included in several lists, dating back much further. A quick search shows lists by myself (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=765015&viewfull=1#post765015) from November 2013 or kingtk3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=789574&viewfull=1#post789574) from February 2014, just to mention two examples. This obviously says nothing about possible earlier testing not reflected in this thread. The lists differ for sure, the Seeker is not included in most lists and you upped the count to 2, but your claim of having used it before April 2014 is not sufficient to support any "boasting" about inventing.



I'm just questioning usefulness of Flusterstorm.

In most of the cases (other than Tendrils deck) ... It's just glorified Daze or Force Spike and not worth of slot (IMO).

In most of the cases you can win that match up with double chalice (CMC 0 + CMC 1). To obtain that I suggest aggressive Mulligan (it's worth to go even down to 4) to obtain Sol Land + double chalice.

I lost very few matches against tendrils decks. Mostly, when they go off straight away.

To preface this, I don't use Flusterstorm either. But it's the cc1 card I would include before any other cc1 card. Switching from Flusterstorm to Misdirection seems ok, if your meta calls for it. Misdirection is (nearly) useless against storm on its own, good against Hymn and stellar against Decay. Flusterstorm is useful against Storm, useful against Hymn but useless against Decay. Around here I've seen too much storm to consider Misdirection. Your arguments about mulliganing and winning against storm if you get two Chalices are true, but they don't change the fact that you reduced the number of bullets you have against storm by making the switch, thus increasing the chance of not finding one of your hate cards or mulliganing into oblivion, which can happen with Tezz just as with any other Chalice deck. I lost a game where I went T1 Chalice into T2 Trini against storm, simply because I bricked completely and never found another card I could cast or use, while he calmly went up to three lands, Decayed the Trini and won through Chalice without effort using Cabal Rituals, LED and Petals.

As far as usefulness against non-storm decks, Flusterstorm may seem like a glorified Force Spike, but sometimes that's all you need. With Flusterstorm you trade 1:1 against Hymn, with Misdirection you trade 2:3. The second one gives you an advantage, but you don't have cantrips like BUG Delver (mostly played Hymn deck atm) to fix your next draws, so your topdecks can suck and I always hate pitching any of the blue cards in the deck, they are too good. Sure, you might have gotten card advantage, but if you had to pitch your Strix, Foundry or Jace to the Misdirection to do it while you get beaten down by a flipped Delver, have you advanced your game state? Flusterstorm can also catch stuff like Natural Order against Elves or Show and Tell, which Misdirection does nothing about. So as I said at the beginning: Both have merits based on what decks you are afraid of and likely to face and I can see arguments and scenarios for both, but I doubt one of them is significantly better.

[now]

The Tezzeret list run in Detroit is the list that Oarsman (Joe Lossett) has been refining all year. It’s built to suit his playstyle and it may not suit yours, but each card has been considered at length, both by himself and with input from the chat on his stream.

[kingtk3]

Tezzeret the seeker is a nice alternative to Agent of bolas, but I don't want to lower the number of jace to make room for more because I really like to have 2 planeswalker in play, it's our best scenario. But I'd love to play 2 seekers: it may make lux cannon viable as a silver bullet.

@Sisyphos - you once asked me :
"Curious about the Catacombs. How did that work out for you? First time I see it in a list. Seems reasonable on a first glance, but not sure if it's really better than the other options."

Darkwater catacombs has been very good for me: this deck doesn't have a single CC1, so we will always tap for at least 2 mana, so the catacombs drawback (not giving mana alone) is non-existent for this deck. On the other hand is a single card that gives two colored mana starting from coloress mana, which is needed for many cards (agent of bolas, strix, thopters, dimir charm...). Sorry for the late response ^_^

[Sisyphos]

Darkwater catacombs has been very good for me: this deck doesn't have a single CC1, so we will always tap for at least 2 mana, so the catacombs drawback (not giving mana alone) is non-existent for this deck. On the other hand is a single card that gives two colored mana starting from coloress mana, which is needed for many cards (agent of bolas, strix, thopters, dimir charm...). Sorry for the late response ^_^

Np. Guess that makes sense. If you get stuck on one land, it doesn't really matter if it produces mana or not. You're gonna be screwed anyway. :wink: Maybe I'll try one instead of the third Darkslick Shores to reduce the possibility of getting annoyed in the late game when the drawback of that one actually becomes relevant. It has the same effect as a Signet would. What I'm still a bit skeptical about is the inability to produce UU or BB without sometimes wasting a mana. Only fringe case I can think of at the moment where Catacombs is worse than any other land is when you get stuck with Catacombs+Signet for mana. I feel 4 Talisman / 2 Signet to be superior to a 3/3 split, so adding too many Signet-effects seem to be clunky in theory.

[Darkenslight]

Is Sunken Ruins better than the Catacombs int he context of this deck or not? It natively taps for a colorless, but requires colored mana to filter.

[Sisyphos]

I thought about Sunken Ruins as well, when I posted my reply (based on the fact that I own one of those but no Catacombs...), but I came to the conclusion that it should be worse than Catacombs. Being able to filter mana from Sol-lands or Academy Ruins should come up more often than situations where tapping for colorless or being able to filter into UU and BB as well as UB might be needed. But as I said, this is purely theory.

[Undomian]

I've playtested a singleton Sunken Ruins in my list before, and it was extremely bad. Given, I play a higher percentage of colorless lands than most other people do, but as Sisyphos mentioned, the ability to make colored mana from colorless mana is far more relevant than fixing your colors most of the time.

[Fl0do]

I've been toying around with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas quite a while now, but my list differs quite a bit from the usual Tezzeret decklists (hope it's the right thread for it).

First my list, then some thoughts about it:

3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Batterskull
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Dimir Signet
2 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Baleful Strix
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 3 Trinisphere

I built this deck because I wanted to power out the best planeswalkers ever printed (Jace, the Mindsculptor and in this list Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) and once they hit the battlefield you hardly lose a game.
Though I'm lacking the Thopter Combo (already ordered) and I'm not a fan of durdling around with 1-ofs I decided that my strategy is to overpower my opponent with powerful spells on the back of mana acceleration and disruptive artifacts - and a turn 2 planeswalker is quite sweet.

You often win the game on the back of some 5/5 artifactcreatures or batterskulls, while Chalice of the Void and Glen Elendra Archmage are preventing the opponent from casting anything relevant. The deck is definitly weak vs. BUG strategies (discard + Abrupt Decay) and a fast Delver start is sometimes quite difficult to come over. But the deck can also pull some nice tricks with the planeswalkers or the Phyrexian Metamorph (fetching Batterskull when copying Stoneforge Mystic, locking games vs. spell heavy decks while copying Glen Elendra Archmage or just overpowering the opponent with Phyrexian Metamorphed Batterskull while staying reusable).

The sideboard is really random, I'm changing it every now and then, maybe you have some suggestions (though I want to keep the massacres and trinispheres, they prove to be really good).

The deck feels very powerful but I really don't know if it's really a better choice then the usual Tezzeret deck, but I plan to give the original Tezz-Deck a try as soon as the missing cards arrive. In the meantime I would be very pleased if some of you could give me some feedback on the list, what you think about it etc.
I think I'm close to having a good list but I might be overlooking something :S

[Sisyphos]

I think the list is quite solid, but I will make some suggestions you might want to give some thought. As you do not run Transmute/Tezzeret, I think you are right to drop singletons and Foundry gets a lot worse as well. The deck looses some ways to win without Foundry, but without Transmute, you would sacrifice too many slots to make it work.



3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

I would definitely play at least 7 Sol-lands. You want to have 4 mana on turn 2 as reliable as possible.



2 Creeping Tar Pit

And here we have an easy way to get the slot for the seventh Sol-land. I don't think Tar Pit meshes well with what the deck wants to do. Sure, when you have deployed your hand and have nothing else to do with your mana, it's ok, especially as you don't have Foundry to sink mana into, but that's the only synergy it has with the rest of the deck. In a list with Mox Diamonds/Crucible, I can see one of those as back up and for long game grinding, but even than I'd never play two. Coming into play tapped is bad in this deck. It means you loose one turn to get to the mana threshold. Darkslick Shores at least comes into play untapped 70+% of the time, which makes it tolerable.



3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Dimir Signet

As mentioned before, I prefer Talisman to Signet. Probably only personal preference though.



2 Thirst for Knowledge

Never was happy about this. Never really missed it after cutting it from my lists. Would probably be my first things to cut if you decide to add Transmutes or Foundry.



3 Batterskull
4 Baleful Strix
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

I like the creature base you have set up. Revoker adds additional disruption, Batterskull makes up for the life gain lost from cutting Foundry and Metamorph plays really nicely with the whole deck. I might be trying out one of those. Not sure about the Archmage though. Especially against combo, I would prefer Lodestone in these slots. It gets online a turn earlier, does not require mana, is a permanent disruption and a faster clock. Against Miracles, I'm not sure which I'd rather have I guess. Metamorph with Lodestone is such a beating against combo too. Possible addition I would suggest, even more so without the life gain from Foundry, is Wurmcoil. It is a turn slower than Batterskull, but is even more powerful. Though I seem to be the only one around here who includes at least one Wurmcoil in every version of the deck...

Board depends a lot of the matchups you are likely to face, so I will keep to general thoughts. I would probably switch in at least some Deluges, as you have a lot of removal in the board, but everything is only useable against some decks, leaving you with a lot of occupied slots and without anything to really board against random stuff or even Goblins. If you don't add them to the maindeck, I'd probably try to add some Lodestones to the board as well. All combo decks fear turn 2 Thalia for a reason. Turn 2 Lodestone is even better.

[Fl0do]

Thanks for the quick answer!

I think you're right on the 7th Sol-Land and the Creeping Tar Pits, though I want to play at least one Pit. I originally added them (beside having another UB-producing land) to have something for grindy matchups and to have something for first turns without any action.

The split between Talisman and Signet is preference, I first played 4 Talisman and 2 Signets and I'm trying now the 3-3 split - makes no difference. Jam them together as you like, but I would never play less then 3 Talisman :)

I added Thirst for knowledge for some carddraw, but it's really disappointing and I think I will cut them, maybe for an 1-of Tezzeret the Seeker and a Phyrexian Revoker (they provide some sort of card advantage too)?

I'm really happy with the creature base and I can say the Archmages are really good. I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Lodestone Golem, I tried him and he always seem too have less impact than the Archmage. With the Archmage in play you practically create a softlock and he plays very nicely with the Phyrexian Metamorph. I would consider the Lodestone Golem for the sideboard, in a split with the Trinispheres.

Maybe I can give you some match reports the next time, so you get a picture how the deck plays out.

[Undomian]

Played in another local today, and it seems like I still can't quite figure out the BUG Delver matchup. Even with Welders, I just got wrecked. Those same Welders helped to murder my MUD opponent in round 4 though, so those seem as though they might be worth it. I'll have to make a final decision on that whenever I finally get some serious testing in with Dack, though he seems absolutely nutty in the limited testing I have done.

[Ellomdian]

Why no Thassa in the deck? I just built this deck, and am going for more of a prison-ish build with mox diamonds and 2 trinisphere maindeck. I've tested Thassa, and so far its been an all-star, especially when combined with sweepers (as its indestructible). The scry ability pre activation has also been very useful.

I toyed around with Thassa immediately after the pre-release, and generally I was just disappointed with her. You almost never hit devotion (Jace+Tezz+Foundry+Thassa works, but why aren't you already winning?) and the scry just didn't seem worth the slot.

[Darkenslight]

I toyed around with Thassa immediately after the pre-release, and generally I was just disappointed with her. You almost never hit devotion (Jace+Tezz+Foundry+Thassa works, but why aren't you already winning?) and the scry just didn't seem worth the slot.

The scry effect is somewhat less relevant in a format with so much card filtering (BS+fetch, Top etc.)

[James]

Played in another local today, and it seems like I still can't quite figure out the BUG Delver matchup. Even with Welders, I just got wrecked. Those same Welders helped to murder my MUD opponent in round 4 though, so those seem as though they might be worth it. I'll have to make a final decision on that whenever I finally get some serious testing in with Dack, though he seems absolutely nutty in the limited testing I have done.

Undomian, could you please share your welder list? I always loved Welders but never found a viable way to play them in Legacy (Dack may help to this).


Re Thassa, I think that the Scry ability is pretty relevant in a deck that does not play Brainstorm or ToP and is always looking for bombs (Tezzeret, Jace, Thopther combo), the ability is crucial in filtering dead cards in the mid-late game to continue resolving key cards (specially relevant against control). It is difficult to hit devotion which is another good point as it means that it will stay on the battlefield for the rest of the game (no Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile, etc). The unblockeable ability is also relevant as for 1U we can make our 5/5 unblockeable...just need 2UU to hit for 10 for sure!

My main concern is about playing Toxic Deluge main deck or in the board. I think this deck has few answers to resolved threats (we rely so much on Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge and our PW bombs). I think it could be enough.

[Ellomdian]

Re Thassa, I think that the Scry ability is pretty relevant in a deck that does not play Brainstorm or ToP and is always looking for bombs (Tezzeret, Jace, Thopther combo), the ability is crucial in filtering dead cards in the mid-late game to continue resolving key cards (specially relevant against control). It is difficult to hit devotion which is another good point as it means that it will stay on the battlefield for the rest of the game (no Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile, etc). The unblockeable ability is also relevant as for 1U we can make our 5/5 unblockeable...just need 2UU to hit for 10 for sure!


Mid-late game, you should have a Tezz or a JTMS going, or a Tutor online, or have naturally drawn cards. The deck typically doesn't have problems 'resolving' cards against control, as Miracles really does not like having to find/leave a 4 drop on the top of their library, and Decay doesn't hit them either. And as for your lack of devotion being an upside, you are effectively playing an enchantment at that point - and I promise, there are more efficient or powerful enchantments to accomplish the same goal.

And if you are having problems with deck's blocking your 5/5's in an impactful way that prevents you from winning the game, I would love to know what matchups you are playing...


Looks like CalebD has an updated list he is streaming with that is forgoing the Transmute package altogether. I have to wonder how much of his list is defined by the online meta vs. the paper one - there are 0 Bridges main, and he has 4 Leyline of the Void in the SB.


4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Damnation
1 Go for the Throat
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Baleful Strix
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Sword of the Meek
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Dimir Signet
1 Karn Liberated
3 City of Traitors
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod

-SB-
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Damnation
1 Go for the Throat
1 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vendilion Clique

[Undomian]

Undomian, could you please share your welder list? I always loved Welders but never found a viable way to play them in Legacy (Dack may help to this).


Sorry I took so long, literally just saw this post. This is what I've been testing with:
4 Baleful Strix

2 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 The Abyss

4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

61 cards

SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lodestone Golem

Welder is in the SB where it comes in against the GBx shells that I side Chalices out against. I imagine you could play with it in the main in the right meta (especially with Dack in the list, as he gives you a chance to recoup the CA lost when you draw one with a Chalice on the field), and I might test that at some point. I would be sorely tempted to try Myr Battlesphere in this kind of strategy too, though that might just be a different deck all together.

I'm not sure how much I like that CalebD list. With Transmute out of the picture, you're forced to run suboptimal numbers of some things (see: 3 Sword of the Meek) and I also really dislike Karn. It is really powerful to be sure, but 7 mana is SO much in this deck, especially when his list only plays 21 land (though he does play an above average number of artifact mana sources). I'm also not sure of the value of running only 3 Chalice, as it seems like the full four might be necessary to stabilize in the early game. At first glance, that deck seems like it would just be wrecked by something like RUG or BUG delver. I haven't watched the video yet, so I'll definitely have to do that. CalebD does know what he's doing in this format.

[Undomian]

So I took the exact list posted above to a 36-man SCG IQ yesterday, and unfortunately lost in the finals. My matchups were as follows:

R1: UB Countertop (2-0)
R2: Shardless BUG (2-1)
R3: UB Tezzeret [a more traditional build of it] (2-1)
R4: UG Infect (2-1)
R5: BUG Delver (0-2)
R6: ID
QF: Shardless BUG (2-0)
SF: Affinity (2-1)
Finals: BUG Delver [Same guy as in R5] (0-2)

Dack Fayden proved his worth multiple times throughout the day, as did Goblin Welder. Dack was phenomenal in the Shardless BUG matchups, probably would have been great in the mirror match (though I didn't see him), and was obviously amazing against Affinity. I actually got to live the dream against Affinity with Dack by taking his Cranial Plating to make my counterattack lethal. In the Shardless BUG matchups, I was able to take their Shardless Agents and Baleful Strixes to stabilize for long enough against their Goyfs for my own walkers to take over the game.

I think the next thing I might try with the deck is adding an additional land, which will probably be the fourth Polluted Delta. I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to cut for it, but I was mana screwed multiple times on the day (losing me both matchups against BUG Delver), and I think Dack provides the filtering push I need to not be flooded. I also kind of want an out to Null Rod in the sideboard. I've been doing pretty well with this list in my area for the past few months, and other people have started to pick up the deck as well due to the publicity that Joe Lossett has been giving it. As a consequence, more Null Rods have been cropping up in local sideboards, and I currently have zero outs to it with my only "removal" for that sort of stuff being EE. The Helm/Leyline sideboard I've always had around has really not been pulling its weight recently, though I am still deathly afraid of attending a tournament without at least four pieces of hard GY hate in my board. I've actually been considering Rakdos Charm as GY hate as well as a way to kill Null Rod, but that seems really, really deep.

[GordonAndersson]

What's your sideboardplan with the Goblin Welders? When do you board those guys in?

[James]

Congratulations for the results @Undomian!! I think Dack Fayden is a good card in the current meta (it is a shame that his last ability is absolutely useless in this deck - I do not know if you had the opportunity to ultimate in your testing/matches).

I was wondering why you have two copies of Engineered Explosives instead of Ratchet Bomb taking into account that you have two copies of Transmute Artifact MD and two Goblin Welders in the side (please correct me if I am wrong but EE will enter into the battlefield with 0 counters if you use Transmute or the Goblin Welder ability).

I would also like to know how do you use the Goblin Welders - I understand the interaction between Dack Fayden's +1 and Goblin Welder but I do not see any relevant artifacts to be abussed with Welders (e.g. Wurmcoil Engine, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, etc). I think that Baleful Strix and the singleton Ensnaring Bridge are the only targets that may justify the inclusion of the Welders.

Thanks,

J.

[Undomian]

Welders aren't there for any fancy tricks, they're there for resiliency. I have mostly been testing Welder as a sideboard plan against anything with Abrupt Decay. This deck tends to lean very heavily on a single permanent a lot of the time, and Decay throws a wrench into those plans. It can't be forced and we can't Chalice it (even disregarding how bad Chalice for 2 would be for this deck), so an untimely Decay will often spell the end of the game. Welder is a hedge against this. Either the Welder sticks and recovers those important permanents in exchange for some less important cards, or they kill it and are forced to have another removal spell for our haymakers. Welder is a bit of a 'nonbo' with Chalice, but fortunately enough for us, Chalice is pretty bad in the matchups where Welder is good, making for an easy swap. Using Shardless BUG as an example, I usually sideboard something like this:

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Force of Will

+2 Goblin Welder
+1 The Abyss
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Toxic Deluge

As for EE, recursion isn't something I'm terribly focused on. I'm in the extreme minority that prefers Mox Diamond over Talisman/Signet, and a lot of my card choices reflect that - including Engineered Explosives. When you have the ability to set it on 3 or even 4 with relative ease, the card becomes much more valuable than something like Ratchet Bomb. Yeah, the card is much worse with Welder and Transmute, but I rarely find myself in a situation where the ability to Transmute for a Ratchet Bomb to go off in a few turns is better than just Transmuting for something with more impact. When you Transmute for a sweeper, you need it now more often than you need it later. There are exceptions, like in the Elves matchup or something similar, but I think the added flexibility and speed of EE is worth the exchange.

As for Dack Fayden, 100% of the reason for his inclusion is his first ability. This deck plays a lot like a ramp deck with the risk of drawing all mana and no threats, and Careful Study every turn is a pretty great solution to that problem. I've had him above ultimate range on multiple occasions, and I didn't feel bad about it at all. All of the other abilities are just an added bonus, so the fact that I literally have zero ways to trigger the emblem doesn't matter to me. The first time I activated his +1, drew two cards, and discarded two Mox Diamonds in the late game felt SO good. It filters out junk against the decks that want to go long, and finds the cards that matter against the decks that don't. To be perfectly honest, if they had printed an enchantment or something that read "At the beginning of your upkeep, Careful Study" I would have seriously tested it. This card is similar with the added effects that it dies a bit easier, sometimes fogs for you, and leads to the occasional blowout against any artifact-wielding opponent.

EDIT: On another note, this new 7:30EST Legacy Daily has finally given me the incentive to buy into MODO. I'll be buying this deck there when my next paycheck rolls around, so between that and the Legacy FNM I can attend now, I should be able to get substantially more testing in.

[James]

Welders aren't there for any fancy tricks, they're there for resiliency. I have mostly been testing Welder as a sideboard plan against anything with Abrupt Decay. This deck tends to lean very heavily on a single permanent a lot of the time, and Decay throws a wrench into those plans. It can't be forced and we can't Chalice it (even disregarding how bad Chalice for 2 would be for this deck), so an untimely Decay will often spell the end of the game. Welder is a hedge against this. Either the Welder sticks and recovers those important permanents in exchange for some less important cards, or they kill it and are forced to have another removal spell for our haymakers. Welder is a bit of a 'nonbo' with Chalice, but fortunately enough for us, Chalice is pretty bad in the matchups where Welder is good, making for an easy swap. Using Shardless BUG as an example, I usually sideboard something like this:

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Force of Will

+2 Goblin Welder
+1 The Abyss
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Toxic Deluge

As for EE, recursion isn't something I'm terribly focused on. I'm in the extreme minority that prefers Mox Diamond over Talisman/Signet, and a lot of my card choices reflect that - including Engineered Explosives. When you have the ability to set it on 3 or even 4 with relative ease, the card becomes much more valuable than something like Ratchet Bomb. Yeah, the card is much worse with Welder and Transmute, but I rarely find myself in a situation where the ability to Transmute for a Ratchet Bomb to go off in a few turns is better than just Transmuting for something with more impact. When you Transmute for a sweeper, you need it now more often than you need it later. There are exceptions, like in the Elves matchup or something similar, but I think the added flexibility and speed of EE is worth the exchange.

As for Dack Fayden, 100% of the reason for his inclusion is his first ability. This deck plays a lot like a ramp deck with the risk of drawing all mana and no threats, and Careful Study every turn is a pretty great solution to that problem. I've had him above ultimate range on multiple occasions, and I didn't feel bad about it at all. All of the other abilities are just an added bonus, so the fact that I literally have zero ways to trigger the emblem doesn't matter to me. The first time I activated his +1, drew two cards, and discarded two Mox Diamonds in the late game felt SO good. It filters out junk against the decks that want to go long, and finds the cards that matter against the decks that don't. To be perfectly honest, if they had printed an enchantment or something that read "At the beginning of your upkeep, Careful Study" I would have seriously tested it. This card is similar with the added effects that it dies a bit easier, sometimes fogs for you, and leads to the occasional blowout against any artifact-wielding opponent.

EDIT: On another note, this new 7:30EST Legacy Daily has finally given me the incentive to buy into MODO. I'll be buying this deck there when my next paycheck rolls around, so between that and the Legacy FNM I can attend now, I should be able to get substantially more testing in.

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. A few more questions. Have you considered moving the four copies of Chalice of the Void to the Side and include the two Goblin Welders and maybe two copies of Galvanic Blast, Whipflare or Red Elemental Blast in the MD? Sometimes I feel that Chalice of the Void is really bad if you are not on the play (50% chance of being on the play in G1) and as you mentioned it is also bad against Abrupt Decay decks (around 25% of the current meta). I know that Chalice on 1 is a potentially GG against combo decks or Canadian Thresholds and it protects our creatures from Swords to Plowshares but if you are not on the play and you don't have sol land/mox + chalice, they lose certain efficiency.

I was also wondering if now that you are playing a small splash to red, do you think that Blood Moon deserves a space in the 75? I think that with 4 Mox Diamons and 2 Dimir Signet this could be a good addition...

[Undomian]

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. A few more questions. Have you considered moving the four copies of Chalice of the Void to the Side and include the two Goblin Welders and maybe two copies of Galvanic Blast, Whipflare or Red Elemental Blast in the MD? Sometimes I feel that Chalice of the Void is really bad if you are not on the play (50% chance of being on the play in G1) and as you mentioned it is also bad against Abrupt Decay decks (around 25% of the current meta). I know that Chalice on 1 is a potentially GG against combo decks or Canadian Thresholds and it protects our creatures from Swords to Plowshares but if you are not on the play and you don't have sol land/mox + chalice, they lose certain efficiency.

I was also wondering if now that you are playing a small splash to red, do you think that Blood Moon deserves a space in the 75? I think that with 4 Mox Diamons and 2 Dimir Signet this could be a good addition...

I think that, in my meta at least, Chalice is too good to take out of the maindeck. It's good against combo, it's good against Delver, and it's good against Miracles - all decks which are heavily played in my area. Whipflare is certainly an interesting idea, though. I hadn't thought of that since I started playing red. Blood Moon is also a very interesting thought. I think we might need to incorporate more basic lands into the deck if that goes in, because I still run into games from time to time where a Moon is brutally effective at cutting the deck off of its second colored mana source.

[lambert101]

A friend of mine was interested in this deck. We have been testing the following with some decent results. Still trying to figure away around null rod out of certain decks like BUG delver. Also, Jester's Cap is nostalgic and can be cut. Please share your thoughts. I also have the board plans abbreviated.

Main:
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Staff of Nin
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 City of Traitors
3 Drowned Catacombs
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
1 Cursed Totem
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Theif
1 Engineered Plague
1 Jester’s Cap

Vs. Rug
- 4 Force - 1Staff
+2 Toxic
+1 Crypt
+ 1 The Abyss
Vs. Burn/UR Delver
+ 3 Flusterstorm
- 1 Staff
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker

vs. Jund
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 The Abyss
+1 Crypt
- 4 Force

Dredge (Manaless)
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 Staff
(- 4 Chalice)
+ 1 Crypt
+ 1 Cage
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
(+ 3 Flusterstorm)
(+ 1 PNeedle for Grizzledbrand)

BURG Delver/Young Pyromancer
+ 1 E-plague
+ 1 Cursed Totem
+ 2 Toxic
- 4 Force

MUD/Chalice Decks
- 4 Chalice
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 Cursed Totem

Death and Taxes (Maverick)
- 4 Force
- 2 Tezz 1.o
-1 Jace
or
- 4 Chalice
+ 2 Dread
+ 1 Eplague
+ 1 Cursed Totem
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 P Needle

Shardless BUG and BUG Delver
- 4 Force
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 Crypt

Turbo Eldrazi (Lands)
- 2 Force
(- 1 Force)
+ 1 PNeedle
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
(+ 1 crypt)

Merfolk (Goblins)
- 4 Chalice draw or Force play
- 1 Spellbomb
+ 1 Plague
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 Needle

Elves
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 Spellbomb
- 2 Jace
+ 1 Eplague
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 Cage
+ 1 Cursed Totem

Esper Blade with Souls
- 4 Force
+ 2 Dread
+ 1 Needle
+ 1 Thief

UW stoneblade
- 4 Force
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 1 Thief
+1 P Needle
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 Jester’s Cap

Deathblade
- 4 Force
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 2 Toxic
+1 Cursed Totem
+ 1 Needle

Storm
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 2 Bridge
- 1 Staff
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Cage
+ E Plague

Belcher
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 2 Bridge
- 1 Staff
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Eplague
+ 1 Needle

UWR Delver
- 4 Force
+ 1 The Abyss
+2 Toxic
+ 1 Eplague

Miracles
- 1 Bomb
- 2 Force
+ 1 Thief
+ 1 P Needle
+ 1 Jester’s Cap

Painter Varaints
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 Staff
- 1 Jace
+ 1 Needle
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Cursed Totem

Reanimator
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 staff
- 1 E.E.
- 3 Stryx
+ 1 Cage
+ 1 Crypt
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 The Abyss

Show and Tell
- 2 E-bridge
- 1 E.E.
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Thief

Sneak Attack
- 1 Staff
- 1 E.E.
- 1 Spellbomb
- 2 Stryx
+ 1 P Needle
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap

[Undomian]

The maindeck suite of spells seems to be very similar to what Joe Lossett streams with. It has proven to be very solid in his testing, so I see nothing wrong with that. The manabase is obviously different though. Underground Seas are certainly expensive these days, so I imagine that this particular configuration is a budget consideration? Catacombs seems really clunky, and I can't help but wonder if the three copies of those as well as some of the basic lands couldn't be some mix of Watery Grave/Darkslick Shores/(some lesser number of) Catacombs.

Your sideboard is pretty interesting too. Do you think that Cursed Totem/Dread of Night are better than more copies of Plague or more of some sweeper like Deluge/Massacre/etc.? Also, do you find yourself missing the ability to Transmute for Sphere effects like Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere, or do you find that the additional countermagic that Flusterstorm gives is enough to overcome the post-board combo matchups?

[OCPunisher]

Not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but GerryT recently posted an article about a white version of this deck, piloted by Joe Lossett: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28717_.html.

The deck still has 8 planeswalkers (albeit only two Tezzerets), but it also has the four main-deck Chalices, Thopter combo, plus a Stoneforge Mystic package.

[Ellomdian]

Let's talk about Joe's list - apologies for the Copy/paste of my response to GerryT:


"The reason Seeker has traditionally been a secondary walker in artifact-heavy midrange lists is that you can't really generate much advantage from his +1; artifacts with activated abilities requiring a T tend to be weak, and untapping signets after you're already managed to cast a 5CC walker is not high-impact. You are using him (ideally) as a repeatable tutor. There has been quite a bit of discussion as to the value of adding a 3rd color (or in fact building UW or UR Tezz-like lists) with mixed results - adding a 3rd color to the standing UB shell is difficult as your mana requirements are very stringent T2 and T3, while UR Welder-style lists (especially with Dack) tend to be more engine-oriented, often with a prison foundation. The biggest objection to running straight UW so far has been that the loss of UBTezz is a significant hit to the primary card-advantage/filtering/win-con justification of running the artifact shell in the first place - Joe's list is effectively attempting to replace the value of the Tezz with an Elspeth and SFM for a single piece of equipment. At which point, combined with the apparent purpose of Seeker, I have to wonder if the list wouldn't make more sense with Enlightened tutor or Transmute artifact in place of the seeker.

While I am happy (and to be frank, excited) to throw around Joe's take for variety's sake, it's silly to assume that it has more value that the UR variants, and I remain extremely skeptical of the SFM/Skull package effectively wedged in there...


EDIT: Yes, SFM gets SotM. So it's a Steelshaper's gift with the ability to flash in a Skull."

[Deckerator]

If "we" play The Abyss and the opponent has a TNN. It wont be be affected by this effect. The opponent needn't sacrifice his TNN.
Is it right?

[Undomian]

If "we" play The Abyss and the opponent has a TNN. It wont be be affected by this effect. The opponent needn't sacrifice his TNN.
Is it right?

That is correct, The Abyss is a triggered ability which you control, making TNN immune to it.

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, I'm relatively new to Tezzerator - been playing it in one or two events a week for about three months now - so I'd love some feedback on my list.


4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darkwater Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Baleful Strix

1 Go for the Throat
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Force of Will

3 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Opal
4 Dimir Signet
1 Talisman of Dominance
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post


** sideboard **


1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Trinisphere
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Damnation
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated


About some of my choices:
- My metagame is very fair - lots of Abrupt Decays - so Trading Post has had a lot of utility. I've won games by discarding cards to keep my hand empty for Ensnaring Bridge, made Goats to protect my planeswalkers (and block Goblin Piledriver), and sacrificed superfluous artifacts or dying tokens to either retrieve something from the 'yard or draw a card. It's a bit clunky, but it's worked for me so far. If I had to cut cards, though, it's certainly a contender for a first cut.
- I play a higher artifact land count (3) than most lists because I want to win more often with a Tezz ultimate and I play a miser's Mox Opal, which I've found to be pretty good. It's easy for some decks to craft a plan against you if they can always predict how much mana you'll have, so I've liked the Mox as a form of surprise ramp. It could certainly be switched to a Talisman, though.
- With no :1:-drops in the main, I've liked a singleton Darkwater Catacombs. I'm not sold on Creeping Tar Pit, though, especially with the two maindeck Ensnaring Bridges. Perhaps this should be a third City of Traitors. And two Underground Seas is a card availability issue. Ideally, I'd like one or two more.
- Spellskite has been really good. I wouldn't leave home without it. Witchbane Orb might be too cute, but it neuters decks like Burn, Storm and Pox, all players in my meta. I haven't gotten to cast Liliana of the Veil yet, as it's a new addition to the sideboard, so I'm curious what everyone thinks of her. Karn Liberated is kind of a pet card and did work for Durward in his videos, so I'd like to try it.

This build slightly deviates from the standard lists, so I thought I'd post it to see if more experienced pilots could provide feedback.

Thanks, everyone!

[festeringGAB]

Hello, what do you think about cutting Chalice for a really strong drop cc1?

Sensei Divining Top, Brainstorm/Ponder, Thoughtseize/Duress

[JMLL]

Hello, what do you think about cutting Chalice for a really strong drop cc1?

Sensei Divining Top, Brainstorm/Ponder, Thoughtseize/Duress

Imho, other decks will be better prepared to work with the "free passage" you are letting them in CMC1. You can play 10-12 cards in there, but most decks will play more cards in that CMC so I think it's key to this deck's success to avoid that and eliminate the CMC1 from your games.

[Quasim0ff]

Hello, what do you think about cutting Chalice for a really strong drop cc1?

Sensei Divining Top, Brainstorm/Ponder, Thoughtseize/Duress
Would eliminate the primary reason to play this deck, tbh.

[Darkenslight]

Hello, what do you think about cutting Chalice for a really strong drop cc1?

Sensei Divining Top, Brainstorm/Ponder, Thoughtseize/Duress

Nope.avi.

The single largest strength of this deck is the capacity to shut off most other deck's early gameplan. Chalice for 1 stops most of the cards in Delver, all of the major Blue cantrips, half of the CounterTop combo, Elves and Vial. In addition, it stops most of the non-Terminus creature removal. Chalice for 1 is one of the most insane plays this deck can make. Period. It slows the opponent's typical game plan to a crawl.

[xieyun006]

Took first place in a local 7 man event tonight. When the bad land draws aren't a factor, this deck just wrecks things. I played against a bug deck, not sure what he actually was, two RUG decks, and a miracle deck.

BUG 2-1: I don't remember too much about the BUG match, I lost game one, won game two, and lucked out game three with a top decked force of will, and mana rock.

RUG Delver 2-0: Chalice on one just destroyed my first RUG match up, game two I had chalice on one and two, he kept on going until I countered his Sulfuric vortex.

RUG Delver 1-1-1: In my second RUG match I managed to cast a Chalice on one, and an Ensnaring bridge and ended the game and he scooped. Game two I mulled to five and didn't want to go to four, he counters the heck out of everything and destroys my bridges, and beats me to 2 life when I landed an Abyss, but Force of Will puts me at 1 life, I draw into Tezzeret, but can't cast him due to a mana base of Usea, swamp, 2 Ancient tombs, we sit around for a few turns, and he draws a destructive revelry and we went to game three. I Forced a Chalice through, casted another one on two, and had a tezzeret in play, but ultimated him prematurely with only six artifacts in play while opponent was at 18 life, and we ended up going to turns, then drawing because I couldn't find a second Tezz in time.

American Miracle 2-0: My last match with Miracle was pretty lucky, both times opponent mulled to 6, first game he was stuck on one land and a top for two turns, while I played turn two strix, turn three transmute artifact into thopter foundry, and turn four sword of the meek from my hand, he Miracled Terminus to live for a turn, but ended up moving to game two. I sided out Chalice for Leyline/helm combo, we went back and forth for a while, I droped strix turn two again, turn three he forced my Transmute artifact, then REB my Tezzeret, and spell pierced my Jace, then I top decked another transmute artifact, and milled him.

I enjoy the deck when I'm not flooded with land, or starved for colored mana. I wish there were a way to play some kind of deck manipulation prior to casting a planeswalker, I'm running a one of scroll rack, which does some good work here and there, but if it fails to find you something within the first activation, or at least a shuffle you're screwed. I'm thinking about crystalball as a means to dig, but not being able to draw cards as well makes it kind of crappy. Any one have any ideas? Here is my list:

Lands
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Dimir Signet

Artifact tutors
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

Counterspells
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

Planeswalkers
1 Trading Post
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Stuff
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Baleful Strix
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Side Board
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the void
1 Cursed totem
2 Misdirection
1 The Abyss
1 Trinisphere
3 Flusterstorm

[UB Control]

Hi basically I am a Miracles player in Legacy but I am looking for a deck that is able to win faster and is better against mono red burn. I palyed Tezz-Oat in Vintage.

I am testing the following list and I have some questions to the more experienced Tezzeret players:

Lands (22)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (4)
4 Baleful Strix

Planeswalkers (8)
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Tezzeret, the Seeker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Other Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
3 Talisman of Dominance
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Damnation
1 Perish
1 Trinisphere
1 Meekstone
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Spine of Ih Sah
1 Echoing Truth

I approache this deck as a Thopter-Sword combo so I play 6 tutors (3 Transmute Artifact and 3 Tezzeret, the Seeker) to establish this combo. I think these cards are better than Jace and Agent of Bolas. Which Tezzeret is more useful and why?

If my opponent plays Decay and or grave hate sb I switch to the Leyline-Helm win condition after board.

Spine of Ih Sah is in the sb against Show and Tell deck. What do you think about it?

Echoing Truth is a flex slot. It could be Sphere of Resistance, a counter spell, Crucibles, a Clique or sg else. What do you suggest?

[Undomian]

The reason why this deck generally plays less copies of Tezzeret the Seeker and more of Agent of Bolas is because, while powerful, Thopter combo is easily disrupted and not that great against some decks (most combo). AoB will find it eventually, but also provides added utility in that his +1 ability actually has impact, his -1 ability is enormously powerful, and his ultimate usually wins the game for you even if it doesn't kill your opponent because of the life total swing. You would be surprised how often you end up going for the kill with an army of 5/5 guys and how effective it ends up being. One of our strongest plays against a deck such as, say, Merfolk is to jam AoB on turn 2 and make a 5/5 every turn thereafter. They might let the first attack go unblocked, but it is just impossible for some decks to fight back against for attacks for 10+ damage so early in the game. Also, while this deck isn't the best against Burn, AoB is one of our few tools to fight back against that deck. It is astonishing to see how effective an early AoB is against them. Plus it the turn you play it, and the burn player is either forced to Bolt it (which is great) or you can untap and ultimate for 4-8 life, which is often enough to turn the tide. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is probably the best card in the deck, and there isn't much reason to NOT play 4 of it.

Spine of Ish Sah is okay if that's something that you like to play. Sneak and Show is not a good matchup for us, and it is not because we lack ways to fight back against Show and Tell. Rather, its more the fact that we have very, very few ways to combat Sneak Attack, and Spine does nothing for us on that front.

I like Echoing Truth a bit in that last flex slot. We need something to deal with resolved Null Rods and Stony Silences, and that does the job for at least a turn.

[UB Control]

Thank you for the answers! I will change 2 Tezzeret the Seeker for 2 Agent of Bolas in my list!

[OCPunisher]

Hello friends,

I have a tournament report with UB Tezzeret from this past Saturday. First, my list:

4 Baleful Strix
1 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Damnation
2 Transmute Artifact

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Cursed Totem
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
1 Notion Thief
1 Swan Song
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Thoughtseize

Initially, I was going to play a weird home-brew that was equal parts Jund and Shardless BUG minus Tarmogoyfs. However, I walked into the event room and recognized several familiar Sneak/Show pilots, so I immediately audibled to something that wouldn't just completely roll over to it. I figured this list at least ran Force of Wills and Ensnaring Bridges, and 40% is better than 0%. But I digress...

The tournament was 5 rounds long, and there were about 20 people there.

Round 1 was against RUG Delver. I'll try to recount this as accurately as possible, but it was admittedly hard to remember all the details.
- Game 1, I managed to get a turn 1 Chalice on the draw, which put the game on halt for awhile. Eventually, my opponent tried to resolve a Delver with said Chalice on 1 still on the table. I put the Chalice trigger on the stack, and he responded by trying to Stifle that Chalice trigger. Neither of us caught the part where Stifle is also a one-drop and should also have been countered by Chalice until after the Delver resolved and he had passed the turn. The judge was called, the Delver ended up staying on the table because the turn had passed, and I got a warning. My opponent also mentioned that he didn't see the missed trigger either, so I let it go. Life went on, and I ended up winning that game pretty handily with a Thopter combo.
- Game 2, he boarded in at least one Ancient Grudge and at least one Destructive Revel or whatever the new one is from Theros. Also, in my infinite wisdom, I managed to get a second warning for another missed Chalice trigger. I don't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure it was just another case of we each forgot about it. I received a second warning and he ended up taking the game.
- Game 3, we were coming down to time, and we were the last game left, so a crowd had gathered to watch. He had multiple Goyfs on the table, but they were much too large to cross the Bridge I had out. He was also at 4 life and I had a Thopter Foundry on the table with no Sword, but enough artifacts to swing in for the win in a turn or two. I also had another infamous Chalice on 1 in play. He responded to something I did by attempting to cast a Stifle, and again without thinking anything of it, I let it resolve. He called the judge, who had little choice but to give me the game loss, and that was that.

Needless to say, tilting ensued. As much as I wanted to be angry at my opponent for baiting me into a rules violation to steal a match win that would have otherwise been mine, I knew that I was really just mad at myself for playing too casually to see my own mistake three separate times. I later found out that the karma gods would intervene on my behalf and deal my opponent several losses in the next few matches. Anywho, there were still four more rounds to be played.

Round 2, vs Goblins + Thalia.
- I knew this guy from our LGS and I thought he was known for playing decks that cheat fatties into play. Turns out my intel was wrong.
- Neither game was very close. He had zero disruption for my Thopter/Sword combo, and I had enough Damnations to make sure he didn't go over the top. I think game 2 he wasn't able to find a red source for a couple turns, but in any case I think the matchup is pretty good for me.

Round 3, vs Sneak/Show.
- This match was against a guy who rode in my car, so we both knew what each other was doing.
- Game 1, he opted to put Sneak Attack into play via Show and Tell instead of just hard-casting it, which allowed me to put a Bridge into play. Had he simply hard-cast the Sneak Attack, I would have been dead. Instead, he was cold to the Bridge and I eventually found a way to win the game.
- Game 2, I opened with a pair of Forces for his early plays, and he drew nothing but monsters. I think his hand at the end of the game was Gris/Gris/Emrakul/Ashen Rider/Progenitus by the time he scooped.

Round 4, vs BUG Delver.
- Game 1, he opened with a Thoughtseize and voiced his confusion about what I was playing, which gave me a lot of confidence about the match. He ended up correctly stripping my Chalice instead of the Tezzeret, but I was still able to win by stopping his Goyfs with a Bridge and flying over with Strixes and Thopters.
- Game 2, he boarded in at least a Krosan Grip to deal with my stuff. I also managed to get yet another warning for missing a Chalice trigger. I literally expected the judge to DQ me or escort me to the exit or something, but by the mercy of God he only gave me another warning. Meanwhile, my opponent had a Tombstalker that eventually went all the way.
- Game 3, he wasn't able to find any green sources for several turns, so the Goyfs in his hand were rotting away while I set up shop. By the time he found one, I had a Bridge to protect my Jace, and enough flying dorks to win the match.

Round 5, ID into top 8. Seeded 4th.

In the top 8, I played against the third member of our car, playing UW Miracles with a full set of Council's Judgments.
- Game 1, he used the ultimate ability of Jace on me, and I scooped without thinking about it. My opponent was at 5 life, I had two cards in hand, and a Tezzeret on the board with 3 loyalty. Had I simply kept going through the Jace ability, I could have ticked up Tezzeret 4, then used his -4 ability to win the game before I decked myself. My opponent pointed this out as we were boarding, much to my dismay.
- Game 2 was a slugfest. At one point, he had exiled one of my Foundrys with Council's Judgment, and another had been pitched to Force of Will. I had forgotten about the one I pitched to Force, so when I cast Transmute Artifact for two with a Sword of the Meek in play, my opponent scooped it up. As we were boarding for game 3, we realized that I didn't have a third Foundry in my deck.
- Game 3, he brought in several more bodies (Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Venser) while I took all four Baleful Strix out for other cards, so the small army he cobbled together was enough to beat me down and take the match, mercifully ending my day. He would later defeat my Sneak/Show opponent and then lose in the finals to another Miracles player.

So, I ended up going 3-1-1 and losing in top 8, despite so very many attempts to give away games by missing Chalice of the Void triggers. Our threesome managed to get 2nd place, top 4, and top 8, which seemed pretty good.

As for my deck, I really hated a lot of the random one-ofs in the list. Cursed Totem, Meekstone, Ratchet Bomb, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, Swan Song, Notion Thief, and Vendilion Clique were never really useful. On the other hand, Pithing Needle, Bridges and Damnations were extremely useful. Thoughtseize was a necessary evil in the Sneak/Show matchup, and probably could stay in. I think a Helm of Obedience would probably be useful if I saw anyone bringing in Rest in Peace or Leylines. I've seen a couple of recent lists playing either Trading Post or Staff of Nin...not sure what matchups those are for, maybe it's already been discussed? Also not sure if Tezzeret the Seeker is worth a shot in here, but it's probably worth trying out.

Anywho, thanks for reading this report, and I apologize for embarrassing Tezz players everywhere with my horrid play.

[Undomian]

I've always had people joke around with me that I should get a playmat with the words "CHALICE TRIGGER" written on it in bold. :laugh: You just have to pay attention to the game, even when you think you have it locked up. Congrats on the result, though. I too have found the same to be true of a lot of the one-ofs you listed, so I think the changes you suggested would improve your particular build.

[OCPunisher]

I've always had people joke around with me that I should get a playmat with the words "CHALICE TRIGGER" written on it in bold. :laugh: You just have to pay attention to the game, even when you think you have it locked up. Congrats on the result, though. I too have found the same to be true of a lot of the one-ofs you listed, so I think the changes you suggested would improve your particular build.

Yeah, I basically won my entry fee in store credit as a prize, plus a pin and a playmat. Unfortunately, the store did not carry any foil Chalices that I could staple/glue to said playmat or anywhere else.

[James]

Hi,

I have been testing the UBr version (similar list to Undomian) on MTGO during the last 4-5 days and I would like to share my results and comments.

First of all the list I am playing:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
5 Island
(24 lands)

4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzerete Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dack Fayden
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 The Abyss
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Engineered Explosives
(36)

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Whipflare (Toxic Deluge should be better)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Goblin Welder
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 The abyss
2 Lodestone Golem

There are some slots that need to be improved: I do not own the Crucible + 3 wastelands package (too expensive on MTGO) and I also need blue fecthes (also too expensive right now). I think the deck should be even better with these cards.

These were the pairings and the results - I did not take any notes on each game but highlighted which cards were determinant for winning the games.

1.- Affinity (2-1)
G1 L
G2 W (Thopter + welder)
G3 W (he mulliganed to 4 or 5).

2.- High Tide (2-0)
G1 W (he failed the combo)
G2 W (tezz 5/5)

3.- Deathblade (1-2)
G1 L
G2 W (tezz 5/5)
G3 L

4.- Red aggro (not burn) (2-0)
G1 W (tezz 5/5)
G2 W (lodestone golem + chaline on 1)

5.- Combo Storm (2-1)
G1 L
G2 W (chalice)
G3 W (tezz 5/5 + EE)

6.- Infect (0-2)
G1 L
G2 L

7.- BGx (2-0)
G1 W (thpter + Dack Fayden)
G2 W (Jace + Ensnaring)

8.- UR Delver (2-0)
G1 W (chalice 1)
G2 W (chalice 1)

9.- RUG (2-1)
G1 L
G2 W (Chalice 1 + Tezz 5/5)
G3 W (Ensnaring + Jace)

10.- Nic Fit (2-0)
G1 W (thopter + tezz ultimate)
G2 W (had to go)

11.- ANT (0-2)
G1 L
G2 L

12.- Nic Fit (2-1)
G1 W (jace + tezz).
G2 L
G3 W (jace + tezz + golem)

13.- Birding Pod (2-0)
G1 W (abyss + Dack fayden)
G2 W (tezz 5/5 + baleful)

14.- Deathblade (2-1)
G1 W (abyss + Dack)
G2 L
G3 W (thopter)

15.- Miracles (2-0)
G1 W (Chalice 1)
G2 W (Jace + tezz 5/5)

16.- Miracles (2-1)
G1 L
G2 W (Tezz 5/5 + chalice)
G3 W (Chalice 1 + Dack)

17.- Prison artifact deck (2-0)
G1 W (thopter)
G2 W (Jace)

18.- Goblins (2-0)
G1 W (he mulled to 4 or 5)
G2 W (abyss + thopter)

Overall 15-3 I know most of the pairings were not tier decks but it is important to note that I built the deck last Friday and I lost 2 of my first 6 games so after that the overall is 11-1!

I think this version is just amazing in the current meta. The only problem is that the deck really needs draw manipulation (you will draw a lot of hands with just 1 land or with 6 lands, or you will draw 4 lands in a row). Initialy I was playing with 22/23 lands but you really need 2 or 3 lands in your opening hand, specially if you are running Mox Diamonds. Dack Fayden helps with this kind of manipulation but the other two abilities are almost useless (I found him specially useful against control decks). One thing that I like from the Mox Diamond version (instead of the Talismans) is that it is easy to cast EE for 3 or 4 and that T1 Baleful Strix is a very powerful T1 (and really frequent, if you have Mox Diamond in hand half of the games are T1 Chalice and the other half are T1 Baleful). However, Transmute Artifacts are worse as we have less CC2 and we need more mana to transmute.

I will continue testing this version, I would like to include a third copy of the Thopter Foundry and probably a third copy of the Goblin Welder and some Flusterstorms in the sideboard.

Best,

J.

[Undomian]

Glad to see someone else testing a build similar to my own! Let us know how you do, I'm especially interested in your sideboard changes as I'm looking into different plans there myself.

[theMonster]

Interesting list. I've got some questions.

- Is the Tundra just for Engineered Explosives? With four Mox Diamonds, is that necessary?
- I'm interested in trying Moxes in my list as well. Do you find that the added acceleration outweighs the awkward topdecks or land-light openers?
- Since you're running Transmute Artifact, would one Ratchet Bomb be better removal in place of one Engineered Explosives?
- Do you always bring in the Goblin Welders in game 2 with the assumption that the opponent is boarding out creature removal, or are there specific matchups where you don't? I guess I'm asking if it's a quasi-transformational sideboard plan. One Ratchet Bomb seems strong with Welder.
- How good is Dack Fayden?

Color me intrigued.

[Undomian]

I posted my perspective on a lot of that on the last page:


Welders aren't there for any fancy tricks, they're there for resiliency. I have mostly been testing Welder as a sideboard plan against anything with Abrupt Decay. This deck tends to lean very heavily on a single permanent a lot of the time, and Decay throws a wrench into those plans. It can't be forced and we can't Chalice it (even disregarding how bad Chalice for 2 would be for this deck), so an untimely Decay will often spell the end of the game. Welder is a hedge against this. Either the Welder sticks and recovers those important permanents in exchange for some less important cards, or they kill it and are forced to have another removal spell for our haymakers. Welder is a bit of a 'nonbo' with Chalice, but fortunately enough for us, Chalice is pretty bad in the matchups where Welder is good, making for an easy swap. Using Shardless BUG as an example, I usually sideboard something like this:

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Force of Will

+2 Goblin Welder
+1 The Abyss
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Toxic Deluge

As for EE, recursion isn't something I'm terribly focused on. I'm in the extreme minority that prefers Mox Diamond over Talisman/Signet, and a lot of my card choices reflect that - including Engineered Explosives. When you have the ability to set it on 3 or even 4 with relative ease, the card becomes much more valuable than something like Ratchet Bomb. Yeah, the card is much worse with Welder and Transmute, but I rarely find myself in a situation where the ability to Transmute for a Ratchet Bomb to go off in a few turns is better than just Transmuting for something with more impact. When you Transmute for a sweeper, you need it now more often than you need it later. There are exceptions, like in the Elves matchup or something similar, but I think the added flexibility and speed of EE is worth the exchange.

As for Dack Fayden, 100% of the reason for his inclusion is his first ability. This deck plays a lot like a ramp deck with the risk of drawing all mana and no threats, and Careful Study every turn is a pretty great solution to that problem. I've had him above ultimate range on multiple occasions, and I didn't feel bad about it at all. All of the other abilities are just an added bonus, so the fact that I literally have zero ways to trigger the emblem doesn't matter to me. The first time I activated his +1, drew two cards, and discarded two Mox Diamonds in the late game felt SO good. It filters out junk against the decks that want to go long, and finds the cards that matter against the decks that don't. To be perfectly honest, if they had printed an enchantment or something that read "At the beginning of your upkeep, Careful Study" I would have seriously tested it. This card is similar with the added effects that it dies a bit easier, sometimes fogs for you, and leads to the occasional blowout against any artifact-wielding opponent.


Dack Fayden is somewhere between okay and fantastic depending on the matchup. Careful Study every turn is almost always great, and I have had the chance to make some sweet plays with it like taking an Affinity player's Cranial Plating and counterattacking for lethal and stealing a Jitte then attacking against D&T. Also, being on the play, playing a Dack on turn 2, and stealing an Aether Vial is exactly as sweet as it sounds.

[James]

Interesting list. I've got some questions.

- Is the Tundra just for Engineered Explosives? With four Mox Diamonds, is that necessary?
- I'm interested in trying Moxes in my list as well. Do you find that the added acceleration outweighs the awkward topdecks or land-light openers?
- Since you're running Transmute Artifact, would one Ratchet Bomb be better removal in place of one Engineered Explosives?
- Do you always bring in the Goblin Welders in game 2 with the assumption that the opponent is boarding out creature removal, or are there specific matchups where you don't? I guess I'm asking if it's a quasi-transformational sideboard plan. One Ratchet Bomb seems strong with Welder.
- How good is Dack Fayden?

Color me intrigued.

- Tundra is not neccesary. I already play 5 basic islands (as I don't own more duals or wastelands right now - would like to play 2-3 volcanic and 3 wastelands) so I prefer a Tundra instead of the 6th Island.

- I feel the list with Moxes is less stable than the Talismans list but as mentioned above, with the Moxes you are able to cast a T1 Baleful and occasionnaly a T1 planeswalker (in my previous games I cast a Tezzeret on T1 with an ancient tomb and two Moxes). I also feel the Talisman versions have the same problems with topdecks and land-light openers. If you play Moxes you will need to increase your lands to 23 or 24.

- Undomian already explained this. EE are better in this version as you can easily cast them for 3 or 4 (and with Sol lands it is also easy to activate them the same turn you cast them - they are like "Vindicates"). You also run Academy Ruins which means EE every turn. Ratchet Bomb is just too slow (it does nothing against aggro, and you will need to wait 3 turns to kill a painful Liliana). I prefer to use the Transmute Artifacts (i) with a FoW, (ii) for the thopter combo, or (iii) for the Ensnaring Bridge.

-Not exactly, as Undomian said Chalice is "less" good against decks playing abrupt decay. Therefore in these pairings I side out Chalices and bring in Goblin Welders and the Wurmcoil Engine as they have some sinergy between them. These pairings also use to play Liliana so I am happy to side in the Pithing Needles. Goblin Welders were really really good in my testing as opponents can not deal with so many permanents and interactions with the graveyard (if they focuse their gameplan on graveyard hate, a simple Tezzeret will just killed them) but Chalice of the Void is just better in the rest of the pairings.

- Dack Fayden has been decent. It deserves more testing. Sometimes it was pitched with a FoW (which is necessary in some occasions) or gained control of another artifact (but nothing really relevant) - I remember in one game I use the Tezzeret 5/5 ability on a batterskull and then gained control of it with Dack Fayden. However, the best ability is the first one, it is pretty relevant against control decks, do not play additional lands if you don't need them as you can just discard them once you draw Dack Fayden. There are many decks that can not deal with a Tezzeret, next turn Jace, next turn Thopter, etc. with Dack Fayden you ensure a little bit more that you will play a bomb next turn.

Best,

J.

[theMonster]

Thanks for the replies. I've always preferred Engineered Explosives to Ratchet Bomb as artifact removal for its immediacy, so I'd like to make Mox Diamond work. To reduce the card's variance, what about three copies instead of four? You'll generally see one when you need it and aren't as all-in on it. Three Moxes + three Dimir Signets seems decent. And I know you mentioned card availability as a reason for not running Wastelands/Crucible of Worlds, but to the people who have tried it, is it effective? It seems slow but powerful against the right decks.

Regarding Dack Fayden, this might be too cute, but what if we played a utility artifact like Staff of Domination or Staff of Nin to be able to continuously target opposing creatures? Neither one is that dead in game 1, as each can draw us cards.

And has anyone tried Spellskite and/or Misdirection out of the sideboard against Abrupt Decay? So far I've liked them.

[Undomian]

Thanks for the replies. I've always preferred Engineered Explosives to Ratchet Bomb as artifact removal for its immediacy, so I'd like to make Mox Diamond work. To reduce the card's variance, what about three copies instead of four? You'll generally see one when you need it and aren't as all-in on it. Three Moxes + three Dimir Signets seems decent. And I know you mentioned card availability as a reason for not running Wastelands/Crucible of Worlds, but to the people who have tried it, is it effective? It seems slow but powerful against the right decks.

Regarding Dack Fayden, this might be too cute, but what if we played a utility artifact like Staff of Domination or Staff of Nin to be able to continuously target opposing creatures? Neither one is that dead in game 1, as each can draw us cards.

And has anyone tried Spellskite and/or Misdirection out of the sideboard against Abrupt Decay? So far I've liked them.

I've had more than my fair share of opponents concede to turn one sol land + Mox pitching Wasteland into Crucible. It is a nice card to have available for these kinds of scenarios and for matchups where it is often the best Transmute target (12post), but I don't think I'd play more than one. I also play the full 4 Diamonds because as dead as they are in the mid-late game, they are one of the most powerful cards in the deck. Diamond enables some Vintage-level plays, and we need to be making those as often as possible. Turn 1 Chalice or turn 2 planeswalker are pretty hard for most decks to beat, and the moxes give us a way to do that pretty often. As a tradeoff for drawing dead moxes in the late game, we gain the ability over other lists to play more utility lands. Moxes make those generate colored mana in the early game, and we can have more "spells" in our deck for the late game.

Those artifacts and Dack don't interact in quite the way you're thinking, as his emblem is only triggered by targeted spells. Joe Lossett has seen success with Staff of Nin though, so that is a valid inclusion in some builds. I personally find that anything more than 4 mana is too much for the Mox Diamond build, and as such neglect to play those cards.

Misdirection comes in and out of my deck, often replacing a Force, but I'm still not sure its worth the slot. The card is dead pretty often, and it sucks when it happens.

[Undomian]

In other news...

http://i.imgur.com/eKIorIk.jpg

EDIT: Still lost that match, it is straight unwinnable...

[xieyun006]

4-0 tonight at a twelve man event

Match one 2-0 Fish: I started on the draw with a decent hand with force, and both pieces of thopter combo, as well as force and a pitch card. He went turn one cavern of souls, vial, I tried to force, and he forced my force. My turn I droped a sea, and passed, he dropped an Island and passed, I droped a delta, fetched an island and cast thopter foundry, he vialed in a curse catcher and realized it could only counter instants and sorceries. I passed, he ticked his vial up, played another island, and played another curse catcher. I played an academy ruins, and dropped sword of the meek, and passed turn. He vialed in a lord at end of turn, attacked me for six, eot I activated foundry. On my turn I dropped an ancient tomb and attacked with my 2/3 thopter, his turn he attacks, and passes turn, I activate foundry 5 times, gained three life at eot. My turn I go in for 7, putting him at 11, I passed turn. He draws and shows me some islands and we moved to game two.

I helped this guy put his deck together before the event started, he had some decent grave hate, so I sided out thopter sword, and chalices, and put in Helm/leyline, pithing needle, and lodestone golem...can't remember what I was thinking with the golem...

Game two, I start with leyline in play. He drops cavern, and curse catcher, drops a few lords, and beats me to 4 life, I top deck a transmute artifact, he had no answer, I tutor for helm, and milled him out.

Match 2 TES 2-1: Game one I played ancient tomb, into chalice on 1. He plays a duress, I said 'sure' and he points out the chalice trigger and gave me a freebie, then it was my turn. We just durdled around for a few turns, and he tries to cast cabal ritual, with two cards in hand, and 4 storm. I counter his ritual and we went to game two.

I sided out bridges, and strixes, brought in Lodestone Golem, Witchbane Orb, 3x flusterstorm, and 2 Spellskite.

I started on the draw, and mulled to five, first hand had a force, 4 lands and 2 mana rocks, second hand had two skites, jace, tezz, and two rocks. Third hand had sol land, and chalice, so I kept. He plays sea, and duressed my chalice...I sat around a while, and died shortly later.

Game three, I start on the play, droped chalice on one, and the turn after dropped a spellskite, the turn after that I played Tez Aob, -1 my spellskite when I should have -1 my chalice, and declared attack, he abrupt decayed it. My next turn tez +1 found me a mana rock, and the turn after I drew a transmute artifact, which got me another spellskite. I -1 the chalice this time, attacked and passed turn with two force of wills in hand, a jace, and Tez Aob, he tries to combo off, and I just counter his relevent spells and killed him with 5/5s after.

Round 3 Sneak show 2-1: I start on the play. I landed a chalice on one, then a few turns later an ensnaring bridge, but couldn't find any threats, we passed turns for a while, and I drew into a Jace, which led to some Jace-storming, but didn't find anything, then he drew into his jace, cast him, and +2 him, I ended up storming into a tezz, and later thopter combo, and killed him with tezz's ult.

Game two I took out strixes, and engineered explosives, and sided in pithing needle, 2 spellskite, and 2 flusterstorm.

He starts on the play, with land drop and ponder. I played chalice on 1, and held a bridge in hand, and flusterstorm, we passed turns for a while, then I realized he probably sided out show and tell, so I hard casted the bridge, sure enough two turns later he drops a sneak attack, I drew into a spellskite, and casted it, and passed turn. On his turn, he activated sneak attack, and dropped ashen rider, I force him to target spellskite, and end of turn rider dies, and he exiles bridge. On my turn I didn't have anything relevent and passed it back to him, he sneaks in a G-brand draws lots of cards, and ends up killing me.

Game three: I start with an awesome hand of sol land, U-sea, 2 mana rocks, Tezz Aob, Tezz the seeker, and a flusterstorm. I start with sol land into mana rock, and accidentally letting him know that I had flusterstorm in hand. I passed turn, he plays a land, digs passes back. My turn I drew into a thopter foundry, dropped the sea, and casted my second mana rock. He drops another land and passes it back. My turn, I drew into a land, I played it, and attempted to cast Tezz, which ate a pyroblast. Pass turn. He plays another land, and passes it back to me. I drew into a Tezz Aob, casted it and -1 on one of my untapped rocks, and swung. Pass turn, he drops his fourth land and passes back. I can't remember the next few plays, but I ended up with a tezz on the board, one of my rocks, bridge and thopter sword combo, and he had a sneak attack on the board, he top decked into an ashen rider, activated sneak attack, exiled my bridge attacked Tezz, and killed tezz, and with the Leave play trigger of ashen rider exiled my sword of the meek when I was tapped out and couldn't activate foundry. He was at 4 life, I didn't cast anything that next turn, and just passed, he passed it back to me, I activated foundry sacing the mana rock, for a 1/1 at eot. My turn I casted a chalice on 1, then attacked for 1. He didn't do anything on his turn, and I activated foundry sacing both chalice, and foundry, and attacked for the game.

Match 4 Bug delver 2-1: He starts on the play, drops a delver, I had a force in hand but decided to try and force through my chalice. I dropped a sol land, and tried to cast chalice on 1, he spell snared it, I forced his snare, and he dazed my force, sad face. Take delver to the face for a few turns, then drew into jace, and casted jace, -1 jace targeting delver, and got stifled. On his turn he attacked jace, and ended the game shortly after.

Game two I sided out strixes for spell skites, pithing needle, and misdirection. I started on the play, with two deltas, two chalices, force, and jace, and a u-sea. I played a delta, and passed...should have fetched. He drops a fetch and passes back, I draw a third delta, so I crack my first delta, and walked right into a stifle, I played my second delta and fetched for an island, passed back. He played another land, and passed it back to me. I drew into a fourth delta, played my third delta, and got stifled...again...passed it back. He drops a third land, and a deathrite, I played my forth delta and fetched for a swamp, played a chalice and got spell snared, pass turn. He draws and passes back. I draw a sol land, played it, and played my second chalice, he spell pierces, I took two and payed for it, and he dazes. I dropped lands and got tried to play stuff but it all got countered, I ended up at five life and managed to resolve a jace, I tried to bounce his death rite, but got stifled, passed turn, took 2 eot from death rite. He draws and passes back. I top deck into trading post, but didn't have enough life to pay for it and live through deathrite, so I jace stormed and found a U-sea, I played both, and discarded a card in hand to gain life, he responds with deathrite's ability and puts me at 1, I go back up to 5. I eventually found a Tezz Aob, Thopter foundry, and transmute artifact for the full thopter sword combo, and Tezz's ultimate hit him for 20.

Game three. He starts on the play. He mulls, and keeps a hand of six. He has a pretty strong start with death rite into true name a few turns later, at that point I managed to resolve a tezz with two mana rocks, and a jace and force in hand. I -1 on a rock, and he took five because his deathrite was tapped for mana, putting him at 13 based on my note pad he fetched twice. I was already at nine, so he attacked me instead of Tezz, bringing me down to 6. My turn I drew into another jace, and casted one of them bounced the deathrite, he responded putting me down to 4, I -1 tezz on my other rock, and attacked for 10. His turn he recasted deathrite, and left tnn up to block, my turn I bounced deathrite again and it was done.

I apologize for any inconsistencies I'm pretty tired right now.

Deck stayed the same, but side board changed:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Lodestone Golem
3 Flusterstorm
2 Misdirection

I think misdirections are going to go out for either echoing truth, or diabolic edict, I don't like flusterstorm all that much, but its decent against burn, and can 1-1 hymns, misdirection requires a second blue card, which I usually don't want to pitch. Edicts would be good against sneak-show, but echoing truth will be good against null rod and other silly things, since I've taken two tourneys back to back, I'm sure some one is going to start hating on this deck. if any one has any inputs please share.

Love spellskite by the way, its a tutorable misdirect in this deck, and abrupt decay has been pretty annoying until now. Still loses to ashen rider though.

[James]

Ensoul Artifact
1U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchanted artifact is a creature with base power and toughness 5/5 in addition to its other types.

Interesting card, I know we play 4 Tezzeret, AoB and this is the same as the -1 ability but for just 1U it seems interesting to me. Will love to see it on a Baleful Strix, Mox Diamond, Signet or Darksteel CItadel...and then play a Tezzeret :cool:

I think this card would make the deck more agressive (I do not know if this is where we want to be but it is worth testing).

[GordonAndersson]

A card I haven't seen anyone mention is Keranos, God of Storms and I must say I am really impressed with that card. Against Miracles he is an auto win and he does exactly what the deck sometimes miss. He is a indestructible planeswalker that either bolts creatures that prevent you from playing your other planeswalkers or he draws you cards so you can find Ensnaring Bridge or other cards that help you stabilize the game som Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas or Jace, the Mind Sculptur can take over the game.

I trying out both the version with signets and the Mox Diamond builds and I in builds with diamonds I would absolutely play Keranos. Signets make him a little difficult to play but with more fetches it is possible.

[James]

A card I haven't seen anyone mention is Keranos, God of Storms and I must say I am really impressed with that card. Against Miracles he is an auto win and he does exactly what the deck sometimes miss. He is a indestructible planeswalker that either bolts creatures that prevent you from playing your other planeswalkers or he draws you cards so you can find Ensnaring Bridge or other cards that help you stabilize the game som Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas or Jace, the Mind Sculptur can take over the game.

I trying out both the version with signets and the Mox Diamond builds and I in builds with diamonds I would absolutely play Keranos. Signets make him a little difficult to play but with more fetches it is possible.

Good call - thanks! I think I would try 1 copy or even 2 if I find a slot (5cc is at the top of the curve) in my list instead of the single The Abyss. I know it is not the same function but I am a little bit dissapointing with having only one copy of a non transmutable card - I will move it to the side where I also play another copy of The Abyss.

[GordonAndersson]

Good call - thanks! I think I would try 1 copy or even 2 if I find a slot (5cc is at the top of the curve) in my list instead of the single The Abyss. I know it is not the same function but I am a little bit disappointing with having only one copy of a non transmutable card - I will move it to the side where I also play another copy of The Abyss.

My Abyss also went to the sideboard and right now I'm looking for another spot for a second Keranos. Dack has been good but not mind blowing like Keranos so I'll probably just swap one for one. There are so many cards I would like to fit in the list but so little room. I also run Liquimetal Coating with Dack and it has actually been good. Without Dack it up's Tezzerets ultimate count by one (make a land an artifact) or it could make one of you nonartifact-permanents artifacts for the sake of transmuting or making 5/5:s.

I also have the crucible+wasteland lock in there but I think that is a little greedy so it may see the cut for another Keranos or another Ensnaring Bridge (probably first priority) and two lands that actually produce the colors I need. But I do love it when you drop a turn one Crucible and turn two wasteland, the problem is that Wasteland isn't transmutable and Tez can't find it either so two copys are a little unreliable.

Here is my list:

4 Baleful Strix

2 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will

2 Dimir Signet
4 Mox Diamond

3 Transmute Artifact
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard is under development but right now something like this:
2 Blood Moon
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 The Abyss
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine

[James]

My Abyss also went to the sideboard and right now I'm looking for another spot for a second Keranos. Dack has been good but not mind blowing like Keranos so I'll probably just swap one for one. There are so many cards I would like to fit in the list but so little room. I also run Liquimetal Coating with Dack and it has actually been good. Without Dack it up's Tezzerets ultimate count by one (make a land an artifact) or it could make one of you nonartifact-permanents artifacts for the sake of transmuting or making 5/5:s.

I also have the crucible+wasteland lock in there but I think that is a little greedy so it may see the cut for another Keranos or another Ensnaring Bridge (probably first priority) and two lands that actually produce the colors I need. But I do love it when you drop a turn one Crucible and turn two wasteland, the problem is that Wasteland isn't transmutable and Tez can't find it either so two copys are a little unreliable.

Here is my list:

4 Baleful Strix

2 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will

2 Dimir Signet
4 Mox Diamond

3 Transmute Artifact
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard is under development but right now something like this:
2 Blood Moon
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 The Abyss
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I like your list a lot! However, I think that Liquimetal Coating is a little bit clanky...I know it is a dream together with Dack Fayden but I prefer to use a Transmute on a Thopter/Sword piece or on an Ensnaring Bridge instead of the Liquimetal Coating.

I see you don´t play any kind of removal. No love for Engineered Explosives? Playing Mox Diamonds allows you to cast EE with 3 or 4 counters easily. I was also wondering why you play Blood Moon in the side if you already play the Crucible + Wastelands package (you should probably play one more Wasteland to make the package effective) - I personally think that you will need more basic lands if you want to run blood moon.

If you want some spots, you may try -1 Fow and move it to the sideboard or -1 Transmute (they are a little bit more difficult to cast with this version without Talismans).

By the way I love this deck, T1 Chalice is soooo powerful.

[GordonAndersson]

I like your list a lot! However, I think that Liquimetal Coating is a little bit clanky...I know it is a dream together with Dack Fayden but I prefer to use a Transmute on a Thopter/Sword piece or on an Ensnaring Bridge instead of the Liquimetal Coating.

Thanks! Yes it is and it probably will get cut but right now it actually does some crazy things like steel a Bob T2.


I see you don´t play any kind of removal. No love for Engineered Explosives? Playing Mox Diamonds allows you to cast EE with 3 or 4 counters easily. I was also wondering why you play Blood Moon in the side if you already play the Crucible + Wastelands package (you should probably play one more Wasteland to make the package effective) - I personally think that you will need more basic lands if you want to run blood moon.

That is why I want to main at least 2 bridges, EE I don't like because I can't transmute for it if I wan't it on anything else than 0. As I said, the sideboard is just 15 random cards I'm trying out. Probably the crucible lock will be cut for more colored mana and Blood Moon will be a sideboard plan against greedy decks because this deck operates quite well under a blood moon with the diamonds and signets, but yes, a second island would be nice.


If you want some spots, you may try -1 Fow and move it to the sideboard or -1 Transmute (they are a little bit more difficult to cast with this version without Talismans).

By the way I love this deck, T1 Chalice is soooo powerful.

T1 Chalice is reason enough to play this deck :cool:

I've been thinking about the same cuts but I haven't tried them out yet. It's a work in progress and one idea right now is also to move Dack Fayden to the sideboard because all the other planeswalkers and Keranos is better in most matchups.

[theMonster]

I really like the idea of the red splash and am gonna give it a go at a Legacy event this Sunday. Here's what I'm considering running:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp

3 Mox Diamond
3 Dimir Signet

4 Baleful Strix

1 Transmute Artifact
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Force of Will

1 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Keranos, God of Storms

3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge

*** sideboard ***

1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Trinisphere
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Trading Post
1 Misdirection
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Some of these numbers are due to card availability; I only own two Jaces, three Force of Wills, one Transmute Artifact and zero Crucible of Worlds. I'll explain the choices that aren't.

- My metagame is very fair with only a sprinkling of Delver - lots of Jund, DnT, Merfolk, Maverick, Lands, etc. - so I'm playing a 3:1 main/sideboard split of Chalice of the Void. I only want to cast it for 1 (and occasionally 0), so having redundant copies in game 1 doesn't do a ton for me.
- I like one Engineered Explosive and one Ratchet Bomb as artifact removal. EE can't effectively be found with Transmute and doesn't always jive with Sol lands, so having a T1 or tutor-able Bomb has often been helpful.
- I'm running three artifact lands to make Tezz's ultimate more effective and provide more fodder for Thopter Foundry. Oftentimes I have Ensnaring Bridge and Foundry in play and want to put a clock on my opponent without sacrificing a high impact artifact, so having a few artifact lands in the list helps.
- Since I'm playing two Sword of the Meek, I've liked [CARDS]Thirst for Knowledge in lieu of more Transmute Artifact. At the worst, it's a blue card to pitch to FoW. Plus, since I'm only running one Dack Fayden, I have more ways to discard for a potential Goblin Welder plan post-sideboard.
- As for the 'board, Spellskite has been amazing, thwarting Abrupt Decay as well as Combo's bounce spells that target my hate. Highly recommend it. Witchbane Orb helps me against Storm, Burn, Pox, Jund and Painter (because they can't target me with Intuition nor Grindstone). Misdirection can function as an ersatz fourth FoW and gives me game against Decay and Hymn to Tourach, each prominent players in my metagame. Trading Post looks cute, but it's been very powerful for me. It can keep my hand size low for Ensnaring Bridge, make blockers for cards like Goblin Piledriver, draw cards when I need them and retrieve interred artifacts. With two Swords in the list, I can go straight to Value Town. Also, I could probably use a way to deal with Null Rod, as it crops up occasionally, but I don't know if it's necessary.
- Cards I'm considering somewhere in the 75: Karn Liberated for grind-y games, Engineered Plague, a third Bridge in the side

Let me know if y'all have any critiques. Hopefully I run well on Sunday!

[TheArchitect]

I took 1st at a small local yesterday. It was my first time playing the deck outside of testing. It seems really good and is a very fun deck.

This is the list I used:

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Baleful Strix
4 Dimir Signet
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Staff of Nin


//Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lodestone Golem
2 Massacre

The I liked the list a lot. The only changes I would make are definitely fit a pithing needle in the SB. I forgot how important that card is.

EE and Staff seems like the weakest MD cards.

The helm package was awesome. I even brought in JUST the helm against MUD and it won the game for me once I established control.

Cage is basically in there for elves (since I am already good on GY hate). but having essentially 5 Cages and 4 leylines is nice, making the dredge matchup a bye and reanimator have to cast S&T into my bridges. I would like a tutorable card that is better than elves (if such a thing exists). I was thinking maybe cursed totem or Jitte, but something that dodges decay would be even better. Any insight here would be appreciated. Bonus points if its also good against death and taxes. In my testing, elves and D&T seemed to be 2 tougher matchups.

[James]

Was testing one copy of Keranos, God of Storm (probably not enough testing or not enough copies of it) but I found that it was not either relevant or impressive when hit the board (although it was FoWed like 2 or 3 times which means it was "dangerous" at that moment). The main problem is that it is a 5cc card that does nothing the turn it enters the battlefield...absolutely nothing (unless you have reached devotion which is very difficult). In paper Keranos is very sweet but 80% of times you would prefer to play a Tezzeret or a Jace. If you are playing against a control deck, Dack Fayden is probably better as it filters your deck and enables you to play a threat every turn while recicling your bad draws...

I am considering playing 1 more Dack Fayden and maybe a copy of Liquimetal Coating (it could work with 3 Dacks). On the other hand, I am also considering the possibility of playing Punishing Fire / Grove of Burnwillows package. I use to have problems against a T2 stoneforge mystic into Batterskull but maybe Baleful Strix is enough.

[Undomian]

EE and Staff seems like the weakest MD cards.

The helm package was awesome. I even brought in JUST the helm against MUD and it won the game for me once I established control.

Cage is basically in there for elves (since I am already good on GY hate). but having essentially 5 Cages and 4 leylines is nice, making the dredge matchup a bye and reanimator have to cast S&T into my bridges. I would like a tutorable card that is better than elves (if such a thing exists). I was thinking maybe cursed totem or Jitte, but something that dodges decay would be even better. Any insight here would be appreciated. Bonus points if its also good against death and taxes. In my testing, elves and D&T seemed to be 2 tougher matchups.

EE is only really at its best in a Mox Diamond build. When it caps out at 2 it's a lot less valuable than something easily tutorable like Ratchet Bomb.

I'm not sure if that artifact you want exists, but you can shore up those matchups a bit by changing your Massacres to Deluges or something. The D&T matchup is VERY build dependent, as a build with multiple copies of The Abyss backed up by a few Deluges/EE/other sweepers is very favored against that deck. I'll agree that Elves is somewhat rough unless you have a hand with Chalice AND Force - and even then you can still lose to a Decay. The best strategy against them is just to try to overload their Decays.


The reason that some people like to play Keranos in their Miracles decks is because they can control what they're drawing every turn with relative ease, allowing them to switch from Lightning Bolt to Howling Mine as necessary. We can't, and the randomness is just too much for this (already somewhat inconsistent) deck to handle.

[OCPunisher]

Hey all, quick question: what kinds of matchups do we bring in the helm combo, aside from obvious things like dredge and other graveyard strategies? That is, what decks do we need the combo aspect for?

[TheYoungster]

This might be a stupid question, but I am fairly new to the deck, so bear with me. I was wondering what to helm of Obedience is for, as I don't see a way to actually deck the opponent in most decks http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66558 like this one for instance. I don't have much experience with the deck, so any responses are greatly appreciated, I will hopefully start reading the primer today if I have the free time, but the explanations on Helm or any other general advice about the deck is, again, greatly appreciated.