[Primer] Elves!

[danyul]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Elf%20Primer%20pics/craterhooflove4.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFzMs_QOq5k

I. Overview
II. Core Deck List
III. Card Choices
a) Mana Dorks
b) Tricksy Elveses
c) The Guardian of Gaea
d) Utility Guys
e) Spells
f) Lands
IV. Sideboard Options
a) Graveyard Hate
b) Removal
c) Combo Hate
d) Utility
V. How to Play the Deck (and not get Lost In The Woods)
a1) The Combo AKA How to “Go Off”
a2) Advanced Strategy
b) Mindset/Alertness/Triggers/maximize mana
c) How to Deal with Disruption
c1. Counterspells
c2. Removal
c3. Discard
VI. How to Evaluate Opening Hands
a) The Perfect 7
b) The Imperfect 7 (Utility)
c) The Imperfect 7 (Mana)
d) The Dude-Draw
e) The Spell-Cleaver
f) The ClunkerHoof
VII. Sample Hands (w/pics)
a) Sample Strong Hands
b) Sample Mediocre Hands
c) Sample Weak Hands
VIII. Mechanics
a) Counting Mana
b) Once-Per-Turn Abilities
c) Summoning Sickness
d) Land Drops
e) Short-Cutting
IX. Sideboarding
Link to Julian’s Guide
X. Tournament Reports
XI. Recent Finishes
XII. Required Reading
XIII. Honored Elven Warriors


I. Overview
(Before we get started, be sure to also check out this primer on SCG by the Legendary Ross Merriam (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29713_The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Elves.html). OK, back to our regularly scheduled programming.)

Elves is an aggro/combo engine deck that uses synergy and many small incremental advantages to build up an enormous amount of cards and mana in order to play giant monsters and win the game in a single turn. However, because it relies on many small advantages, it is important to always be cognizant of every little play you make, as each one adds up to the W on your scorepad. So if you’re the type of player who just wants to sit behind a Griselbrand and let your eyes glaze over with boredom as your complete control and reckless power overwhelms your meager sensibilities, then this is not the deck for you.

While Elves is most commonly known for its ability to combo off and win early in the game, it is also an extremely resilient deck that can put up a respectable midrange fight. We have access to all kinds of incidental combat tricks and can fully abuse the best planeswalker in Legacy - Deathrite Shaman. Meanwhile every topdeck we make threatens a lethal GSZ/Natural Order.

That said, sometimes Elves does nothing but play 1/1s while hoping the opponent doesn’t have blockers...and sometimes Elves completely crushes people with a single spell (kinda) if they give you an opening to resolve it. Sometimes you will also lose to a single Rough/Tumble and it will feel terrible. If you cannot handle the swings, this deck will break your spirit. I’ve never felt so bad while losing with any other deck.

Why is that?

Because when you lose with this deck, it’s usually a complete loss. By that I mean you get your entire board wiped or get all your dudes picked off and end up with a single 1/1 facing down an army of Goyfs and Jaces. It just feels bad.

BUT, when you win with this deck, it’s through many intricate and detailed interactions that will continue to evade you even after you think you have mastered the deck. Each game plays out like a puzzle where you try to squeeze every last bit of mana out of the deck, turn after turn, maximizing your untap effects and your bounces and so forth. When played optimally, you will be able to produce on-board shenanigans that your opponents never see coming even though the interactions are right there in front of them. And sometimes you just tap a Gaea’s Cradle for 100 mana and hardcast Craterhoof Behemoth. That’s fun too. No judgment here.

Combo Elves is always an interesting and engaging deck to pilot, and to watch, with all its many different lines of play and decisions to make. If you want a cheap(ish) deck to build up and master, this deck will keep you busy and learning for a long, long while.

II. Core Deck List

Creatures
1-4 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3-4 Heritage Druid
0-3 Llanowar Elves
Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
0-1 Wren's Run Packma

Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3-4 Natural Order

Lands
1-2 Dryad Arbor
1-2 Forest
2 Bayou
8-10 Fetchlands
4 Gaea's Cradle

III. Card Choices

a) Mana Dorks

Llanowar Elves
Fyndhorn Elves
Elvish Mystic 0-3
The original mana dorks have largely been replaced by Deathrite Shaman. However we still run a copy or two because there will be situations where DRS just can’t find something to eat and these elves have to be paid for somehow. The critical mass of Llanowar effects, including DRS, is typically between 5-7. Even though we now run more copies of DRS than Llanowar, Forest -> Llanowar -> Go is still one of the most resilient plays this deck can make.

Deathrite Shaman (DRS) 4
In testing it may seem like this card is lackluster because sometimes you cannot use his mana ability, but remember that in real games your opponent will typically be using fetchlands too. So be aware of that when goldfishing. Otherwise this card is good. We know this. It’s a miniplaneswalker and can win games on its own. I can’t say enough good things about it.

However, it’s inclusion has required us to run 8 to 10 fetchlands in order to be able to consistently take advantage of it’s manaproducing ability. There will be some gamestates in which you will wish this was a simple Llanowar Elves because you have eaten all the available lands. Even so, its powerlevel is high enough that we accept this risk and play this badboy.

He replaces 4 of the 7ish Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves previous lists used to play. Don’t forget that you can eat a Snapcaster flashback target in response to them targeting it and you can eat lands out from under an opposing DRS. This is because the mana-making ability is not actually a mana-ability and can be Stifled and responded to.

Extrabonus goodies: With DRS it is possible to kill somebody under a Solitary Confinement or Glacial Chasm or Moat or whatever. This is also your only hope in Game 1 against Reanimator.

Heritage Druid 3-4
This card is the other half of the combo namesake. Unlike Nettle Sentinel, you only need one of these guys to really start to go off and multiple copies are redundant. That’s why it’s okay to cut down to 3 copies if you feel like you need a few more slots.

These are usually insta-killed on sight. Use that to your advantage if you are trying to bait removal. These are good, but opponents with only a passing familiarity with the deck will be more afraid of them than they probably should be.

Birchlore Rangers 1-4
This card used to be run as a 2-3 of but with DRS we have other options for making non-green mana, so in many lists we run Birchlore as a singleton to be tutored for when we need him.

Note that with X Nettle Sentinels, all your 1 CMC elves become free. With 1 Sentinel in play, you can cast all your 1CMC guys for free but you will end up with a tapped army. With 2 Sentinels in play, you can cast all your 1CMC guys for free and end up with an untapped army.

Also, don’t forget that Birchlore Ranger has morph. You can attack with him as a 2/2 in a pinch and he can also be cast as a morph under an Engineered Plague. A morphed Birchlore can also block things that have pro-green (Sword of Feast and Famine is a thing) and also won’t die to Perish.

Birchlore’s primary role is as a sidekick who sometimes hangs out with Nettle Sentinel. He also helps hit your secondary colors and can lead to insane starts when paired with Nettle Sentinel + Glimpse of Nature.

Combo-centric lists built purely for speed can drop Llanowars entirely for a full playset of Birchlores. This increases the likelihood of a Turn 2 kill but requires you to commit heavily to the board. B.Rangers are inferior to Llanowars in the mid to late game, but if you are playing 4 of these, you probably don’t care about those parts of the game.

b) Tricksy Elveses

Nettle Sentinel 4
This guy is one of the primary enablers of the “Combo” part of Combo Elves. After you have resolved a Glimpse you can generate stupid amounts of mana using Heritage Druid and/or Birchlore Ranger. This guy will keep untapping to allow you to abuse the Heritage/Birchlore’s mana ability. The Sentinel becomes even more stupid in multiples and is sometimes not too shabby as an attacker.

Sticking him or Deathrite will allow you an opportunity to still have a guy around under an Engineered Plague to sac to Natural Order in post SB games where Progenitus becomes an option.

Be careful with his untap trigger while going off with a resolved Glimpse. It doesn’t actually matter which you do first, draw or untap, as long as you complete them both before doing any other action. Sometimes tricky opponents will have responses to your Nettle’s untap trigger so it’s important to maintain clarity. I will usually verbally announce each trigger as I’m going off. Both so I won't forget and so my opponent can’t rules-lawyer me with a missed trigger. More on that later in the Mechanics section.

Quirion Ranger 4
This card used to be played as a 1 or 2 of at most. But now that we are playing 2-3 colors, it has become helpful to have some kind of protection for our dual lands so the Ranger count has gone up to 4 in most builds.

This guy allows you to continue being productive even off one land. You just tap your land, use Ranger to bounce it to your hand, then replay it and tap for mana again. He (she?) becomes much better with a Llanowar effect or Dryad Arbor on the field. You can generate 4 mana by tapping Llanowar/DRS/D.Arbor, tapping a land, using Ranger to bounce land and untap Llanowar/DRS/D.Arbor, then replaying the land and tapping it and Llanowar/DRS for another 2 mana.

For this reason you can sometimes keep land-light hands if they include a Ranger. Do note that the return ability is part of the cost, so nobody should ever be able to Wasteland your duals with an unused Ranger on the field. Also, the Ranger can perma-block ground guys with a Dryad Arbor on the field, acting as a pseudo-Maze of Ith for ground attacks. You just block with Arbor and bounce the land before damage. This interaction isn’t super awesome since it means you can’t play any other lands ever, but sometimes that’s okay when you need to keep a Goyf/Jitte’d dude busy for a few turns.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Elf%20Primer%20pics/bestfriendteam2.png

Wirewood Symbiote 4
This is half of the Best Friend Team. He is actually the best elf in the deck (even though he isn’t an elf) and an opponent who knows anything about Elves will kill it over any other creature you play. That said, plenty of experienced players will still forget that the Symbiote can protect its elven friends and you will get occasional value out of bouncing elves out of the way of Lightning Bolts.

This guy is similar to Quirion Ranger in that it will allow you to perma-block ground guys using the same rules trick. Just block and return the blocker before damage is dealt. This not only keeps Goyfs busy but can also keep an opponent from putting counters on an Umezawa’s Jitte or from gaining life from Batterskull as both of those equipments require damage to be dealt in order for their effects to take place.

Note that you can use Ranger/Symbiote only once per turn, but that includes your opponent’s turn as well so you can effectively get 3 untap effects each full turn (same goes for Quirion Ranger). Get used to returning stuff with Symbiote on your opponent’s EOT, unless of course you have a reason to leave the dude on the board (Craterhoof in hand?). And be aware that a smart opponent will wait for you to use Symbiote on your turn and then Bolt/Decay/STP it on your end step. Anticipate that.

Also, if you are holding a Glimpse or want to play towards topdecking one, then randomly bouncing any elf EOT (assuming you have no Visionary) can be a nice way to set up the Glimpse play and get more value.

Elvish Visionary 4
This is the other half of the Best Friend Team. Visionary paired with an unmolested Symbiote will draw you a ton of cards while perma-blocking some poor ground creature on the other side of the table.

Don’t forget to bounce the Visionary on your opponent’s EOT. Also note that some people will counterspell this guy or Stifle its draw trigger, so don’t go crazy and autodraw yourself into a warning or gameloss. Always announce the draw trigger like a polite mage should.

When comboing off, always tap these guys first for your Heritage mana, as they will often be the first to be returned with Symbiote, leaving you other untapped elves with which to attack/go off.

c) The Guardians of Gaea


Craterhoof Behemoth 1-2
This card completely changed Combo Elves because it can win on the most precarious of board states. Having access to him with Natural Order and Green Sun’s Zenith makes it extremely easy to find your wincon and seal up the game. It has become standard protocol to run 2 copies to eliminate the Feel Bads of having your lone copy stuck in your hand, making you unable to Natural Order/GSZ into your wincon.

Craterhoof + 3 attackmode elves in play = 24 damage. Anything beyond that is gravy. However, sometimes in the act of going off you may end up with a lot of tapped elves. In those instances you will need to put enough elves into play such that your Craterhoof + whatever available attackers you have will be given a +X/+X high enough to kill your opponent. It is not unheard of to attack with just the lone Craterhoof for lethal. Also remember you can use Quirion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiotes to untap dudes for the Hoof attack.


Wren's Run Packmaster 0-1
Yeah. This isn't a prank. People are playing this card! It offers a great way to seal those fair matchups since it gives us a great outlet for excess mana while providing a 5/5 body that can't be Bolted or Decayed. And having a midrange GSZ target at 5 mana total is situationally very useful. It is also a pretty good card against Miracles since you just stick it and commit nothing else to the board - just pump mana into this guy and force them to deal with it. Also, thanks to the Champion mechanic, you can plop this guy down to get a faster recovery after a Terminus. Ideally you would have Championed an Elvish Visionary :cool:. And don't forget, you can respond to the Champion trigger. Perhaps by tapping the Packmaster to Heritage Druid for Wolf mana!! Another thing to remember, opponents can certainly respond to the Champion trigger. But once the trigger resolves and you choose an Elf to Champion, they do not get an opening to respond. So they can't just Bolt your guy once you decide to champion him. They only way to "fizzle" a Packmaster in response to the Champion trigger would be to wipe your entire board. The More You Know (tm).

d) Utility Guys


Viridian Shaman 0-1
This guy can sometimes be played maindeck depending on your meta (right now it’s pretty good!) and level of paranoia. In postboard games using Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage is slightly more versatile, but being able to bounce Shaman with Symbiote to kill multiple artifacts is very techy sometimes. Playing this guy is just a matter of preference. But with all these damn TNN+Equipment decks running around, having access to maindeck artifact removal isn’t a bad idea.

Scavenging Ooze 0-1 main, 0-1 side
This guy has lost some value with 4 maindeck DRS but it is still a very good card to have access to, especially since we can generate stupid amounts of mana. He also beats an opposing DRS. Sometimes games will run long and in attrition wars where you end up with a bin full of fallen elves, this guy is a major trump card. He also makes Tarmogoyfs look silly.

e) Spells

Green Sun’s Zenith (GSZ) 4
Properly playing this card will separate a master elven mage from an apprentice elven mage. The utility provided from this thing is unfair.

Generally, you want to play these like Gaea’s Cradles or Glimpses -don’t go firing them off unless it’s absolutely necessary. It just so happens that sometimes it is absolutely necessary to play them on the first turn for a Dryad Arbor. But usually you will be using them to fetch out that final combo piece, the other half of the Best Friend Team, or a lethal Hoof.

Remember, you can search for a creature with CMC X or less. Keep that in mind when playing around Spell Snare and Counterbalance. You can also cast them for X=0 just to shuffle them back into your deck in case you are in a precarious Glimpse chain that might possibly deck you. You should never deck yourself on purpose with this deck. If you do that we will kick you out of The Great Forest.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Elf%20Primer%20pics/GREATFORESt.jpg


Natural Order 3-4 main, 0-1 side
This card wins you the game. You use it to grab a cheap Craterhoof and swing for super lethal. Usually.

Do be aware that sacrificing a creature is part of the cost of playing the card, so even if this gets countered you will lose a dude. Also, it’s impossible for your opponent to stop you from casting it by killing one of your guys, assuming you don’t give him priority at some weird time.

Another thing, don’t be afraid to burn a NO as an expensive GSZ. Certain game states will call for this card to be a really stinky Green Sun. Just roll with it and be creative. It can also tutor up your sideboard hate cards like Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Elf%20Primer%20pics/darth-vader-nonononononon.png

Glimpse of Nature 4

This card is an extremely efficient draw engine that keeps Elves firmly planted (if only tentatively) in the Combo side of the metagame, but it is actually not the primary tool we use to win games. However, opponents fear this card perhaps more than they should, and you can use that to your advantage.

This card is at its best after we have developed a bit of mana, allowing us to play Glimpse with enough mana left over to play a few guys and hope we hit gas. But it will most commonly be used to bait countermagic out of your opponent’s hand. It is both Ancestral Recall and Hymn to Tourach.

Less experienced players may make the mistake of overvaluing this card in regards to mulligans and may even play it way too early. Against blue decks you should anticipate a Spell Pierce/Daze/Force and plan accordingly. Unless you plan to toss it out early to clear the way for your Natural Order.

Also, trying to combo off too early and assuming this card will always draw you gas will sometimes come back to bite you in the ass. Casting Glimpse with only a single creature in hand can be very bad. Or very good if you are a lucksack!

Glimpse is a fickle master and you must nurture it to see it grow. Set up your board such that if Glimpse resolves, you can cast at least 2 elves and still have some mana left to get dirty. Otherwise you may be burning a Glimpse for no reason. Now, that is not to say you can’t sometimes cast a Glimpse simply for value. Most of your Glimpses will be “Value Glimpses” in the sense that you won’t win that turn, but you will draw enough cards to set yourself up to win the following turn.

You can even cast it just to untap a Nettle Sentinel or feed a DRS if you really need to race. And don’t feel bad if you cannot win after drawing several cards off a Glimpse. Even if it’s just an Ancestral Recall, that’s pretty good. Don’t feel entitled to wins just because you tapped a Forest for this thing.

Note: Glimpse will not give you a draw if you play a Dryad Arbor or drop a creature into play from a GSZ.

f) Lands

Dryad Arbor 1-2 main
You can play this Turn 1 off of a GSZ for zero. You can also get him with a fetchland. The best Dryad Arbor is the one still sitting in your deck. He counts as a creature for Gaea’s Cradle and Craterhoof Behemoth and can be block-bounced with Quirion Ranger. Most lists play 2 copies now.

Why?

Essentially, the Dryad Arbor counts as 2 mana with a Gaea's Cradle out and 2+(you can hit crazy numbers!) mana with Quirion Ranger/Wirewood Symbiote out.

We play a second copy to ensure that we can always grab one (in case the first dies or you get the first with an early GSZ and are later able to freely fetchland into another) and because having 2 on the board makes for double the pleasure, double the fun. If you can ever afford to leave a fetch up (and in this deck, you often can) you can set up your next turn very nicely by EOT fetching for that 2nd Dryad Arbor. Especially when we have so many Cradles flying off of the top of our decks.

And when Glimpsing, you can use Wirewood Symbiote + Dryad Arbor to bounce and replay another 1CMC elf to "rebuy" a dude+Glimpse draw in case you start to brick mid-combo. The more Symbiotes, the better. And then of course there is the pleasant and sometimes ridiculous interaction between Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor (for block/bouncing or making extra mana) or even Wirewood Symbiote + Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor, bouncing Quirion Ranger to use its ability twice in a single turn!

Playing the second copy simply means we can do all these things more often.

Once you get enough games under your belt, you will begin to see all the ridiculous applications of this simple little land. I'm sure there are plenty more that I simply cannot remember right now.

Gaea’s Cradle 4
This card creates stupid amounts of mana and if you can you should play the full set. If you can only get your hands on a couple, then just fill in the gaps with Crop Rotations.

When holding this card, always wait as long as you can before dropping it. People love tagging it with Wastelands so don’t offer it up unless you have a replacement in hand or just desperately need the mana. Also, while comboing off, wait as long as possible before playing your land for the turn. Sometimes all you need is to draw into a Cradle to hit that mana boost and properly dump you hand on the table. If you get too excited and play a Forest only to draw into a Cradle, you will be shamed and banished from Rivendell for the rest of forever.

IV. Sideboard Options

a) Graveyard Hate

Scavenging Ooze
If he isn’t in the main, then you can run him in the side. That choice is up to you and your meta, but you want at least one copy in your 75.

Bojuka Bog
This can be grabbed with Crop Rotation as a tutorable answer to graveyard decks. This can supplement Scavenging Ooze as graveyard hate as it’s a bit faster and can be used without giving away information to the opponent until the last possible moment.

b) Removal

Abrupt Decay
This card is necessary for beating up Counterbalance, RIP/Energy Field, Engineered Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, Cursed Totem, Chalice of the Void, Umezawa’s Jitte, Grafdigger’s Cage, Grim Lavamancer, flipped Delvers, Goblin Sharpshooters, etc. That’s a long list, huh? You will be boarding these in often.

Harmonic Sliver
Qasali Pridemage
Choosing which to run is a matter of taste. The Sliver can Naturalize something and still be around as a blocker or Cabal Therapy food whereas the Pridemage will force you to block first, Naturalize later. But the Pridemage can kill equipment before they can hit us (instant speed removal!) so there is additional value there. If you are ever in the situation where you need to kill something and only have access to, and mana for, a lone Natural Order (Not a GSZ), then being able to just NO for a Harmonic Sliver and blow something up is marginally helpful. But that’s exactly what the distinction here is—marginal. Most people go with the Pridemage because it’s better against equipment.

c) Combo Hate

Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Duress
Other combo decks are a turn faster than us so we need to slow them down a bit in order to have a chance at winning. Enter: Discard. The flagship discard spell (for us anyway) is Cabal Therapy. With this card, the reward for knowing your opponent’s deck and what it wants/needs is just insane. That said, some people are uncomfortable using the card. It is admittedly very difficult to play well.

For a fantasmo guide on how to rock Cabal Therapy, check out this article (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/) from Caleb Durward.

You will want 4-7 discard spells for your sideboard regardless, so you can mix and match however you like. The safest bet is Thoughtseize or Duress for the super conservative. These spells are also better against decks with a variety of unpredictable threats, like Esper Stoneblade. That deck has a handful of targets we might need to call with a Therapy. But if we use a Thoughtseize, we can just fire it off and we will definitely hit something.

However, against faster combo decks, Therapy shines because they have fewer critical targets to call, and being able to flashback on the same turn is extremely helpful. Also most combo decks have no removal. Utilizing the Flashback on Therapy against a deck with removal can set you pretty far behind.

Remember that every fetchland represents a Therapy flashback because you can grab a Dryad Arbor and pitch it to Therapy.

When bringing in a full set of Cabal Therapy, you may want to consider siding out some number of Glimpse of Nature. I know that sounds counter-intuitive but think of this: Therapy is better with guys on the board. Glimpse is better with guys in your hand. The two often do not play well together. Also, if you are boarding out dudes for Therapies, then that makes both your Therapies and Glimpses less effective since both require a critical number of dudes and you just took out at least 4. No good. You might not want to cut Glimpse necessarily, but when bringing in the full set of Therapies, just be aware that you don't want to overload on spells postboard. Something has to get cut. It won't feel good. That’s sideboarding for you.

Mindbreak Trap
See above. You really need a lot of help against pure combo. Also it allows you protection from certain turn 1 kills that can come at you before you ever make your first land drop. There is some debate about which combo-hate cards should come in to supplement the discard plan. This is fine for bigger events where anything can happen, but in local metas you may not have to pack this kind of hate.

Thorn of Amethyst
This card helps against combo as well as some control decks. The primary reason to run this over something like Mindbreak Trap is the ability to just slam it on the table and not worry about having it in hand on the turn the combo player goes off. Most of the combo decks you are afraid of, outside of Belcher, also run some form of discard to protect their combo turn. So Mindbreak Trap isn’t always as effective as we might like. However, at 2 mana, this card might still be in your hand when the Storm player kills you.

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
This card gives us a bit of card diversity while providing an effect similar to Thorn of Amethyst. And being able to serve in for 2 damage is not something to ignore.When deciding which anti-combo cards to run, you have to think about the metagame you play in and what kind of decks you expect to face. You can also simply ignore the strict anti-combo cards and just save these slots to help shore up other matchups. Praying to dodge the combo decks is not an unrealistic way to approach the matchup. Some people go 1/1 with Thalia and Thorn to diversify their threats.

Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
This guy was a joke when he was first suggested by catmint. But now he is a staple in our sideboards. That just goes to show, you never know what will work until you try it.

You can get this guy with a Natural Order as early as Turn 2. He sends Storm, Show and Tell, OmniShow, and High Tide decks to Frown Town. He typically comes in against faster combo decks that lack removal or blockers. He isn’t so hot against control or midrange decks because they often have removal or blockers for him. Some people run Taiga in the main to make it easier to hardcast this guy. Other ways to get him into play include GSZ=6, Deathrite Shaman for :R:, or Birchlore Rangers for :R:.

Swan Song
One of the newer sideboard suggestions, this card allows you to take on the fastest combo decks in the format. If they give you a turn, this card gives you a chance. It can also come in against Sneak Attack, Miracles, and even the mirror match. This tech has not yet gained widespread adoption, but like Ruric Thar, it has a chance to become a sideboard staple. Go test it!

Gaddock Teeg
This guy comes in against most combo, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Sneak Attack, and sometimes Force of Will. Be aware that he shuts off your own GSZ/Natural Orders, so only play him when denying your opponent is more important than denying yourself. You might also want to board out some number of Natural Order when bringing in Teeg to limit this kind of nonbo. You would leave in the GSZ as a way to find the Teeg to begin with.

d) Utility

Progenitus
Prog comes in when you anticipate board sweepers or E.Plagues or even just lots of spot removal - basically against any deck that makes it difficult to keep guys on the board. Sure, he can die to Perish. But in those kinds of games you just need to put some inevitability on the board. And if Progenitus is anything, it’s inevitability. He also comes in against fair decks that have no way to counter your spells.

Worldspine Wurm
This guy serves a similar role to Progenitus. However, it's most often brought in against Sneak Attack (since it can get sacked to an Emrakul Annihilation trigger and still swing for big damage) and against Jund/Shardless/Liliana decks that might be able to easily dispatch a lone Progenitus with sacrifice effects. Against any deck running Swords to Plowshares, you would not want to bring this guy in since they can just STP it and undo all that hard work you did to get Mister Wurm into play.

Natural Order #4
This comes in against decks that have no counterspells to stop it. Or against some noninteractive matches where you are just racing. This is our scariest card so we might as well have a full set against decks that have their shields powered down. Also, sometimes you can bait a counterspell with a Glimpse and then punish them with a NO while their hand is light. Most lists leave the 4th NO in the board to prevent them from clogging up our hand in Game 1s. It is possible to have too much of a good thing.

Pithing Needle
This card might not seem like a powerhouse but it can shore up a lot of our problem matchups. Here’s a quick and dirty list of some of the things this can shut-down for us:
Grim Lavamancer
Griselbrand
Sensei’s Divining Top
Umezawa’s Jitte
Stoneforge Mystic
Batterskull
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Sneak Attack
Jace
Liliana
Phantasmagorian
Aether Vial
Karakas
Mother of Runes
Goblin Sharpshooter

K I’m getting bored. You get the picture though. This card can cover our asses in all kinds of ways. Props to Julian for coming up with this as a way to beat the Miracles matchup. This card is especially nice because it allows us to just turn things off rather than Abrupt Decay them. This takes some pressure off of our already very busy Abrupt Decays and gives them a bit more flexibility. Always look for new and interesting ways to use this. With enough creativity, you can shut down a surprising number of strategies.

Meekstone
This card hoses Delver decks, RUG, TNN, and Merfolk. It is also a huge Nonbo with Progenitus. You primarily bring this in against Tempo decks. Again, it takes some pressure off of your Abrupt Decays because how we can just ignore Delver and go on with the rest of our forested lives! You aren’t too worried about this card making your Hoof get stuck in the attack zone because usually he attacks for lethal and you play 8 untap effects.

Karakas
If you are running Crop Rotation, then this is a great sideboard choice. It comes in against Show and Tell decks as well as against Reanimator. If you want to get techy you can bring it in when you bring in Gaddock Teeg. That gives you the option of bouncing Teeg, playing NO/GSZ, then replaying Teeg to keep yourself protected from whatever crazy stuff your opponent might want to do. Your mileage may vary on that play.

V. How to Play the Deck (and not get Lost In The Woods)

a1) The Basic Combo AKA How to “Go Off”
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
a2) Advanced Strategy
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
b) Mindset/Alertness/Triggers AKA How you *really* play Elves!
People often ask me “How do I play Elves?” as if I could just tell them one thing to do to help them figure it out. But there is no single thing to remember or to keep in mind. So I just tell them the truth - Don’t Miss Anything.

Don’t miss a trigger. Don’t miss an opportunity to make a single :g: (which usually leads to more chances to make more :g: later!). Don’t miss a potential untap on your Nettle Sentinel. Don’t miss your Wirewood/Quirion untaps. Don’t miss a chance to attack with a 1/1. Don’t miss a land drop (jk!). Don’t miss a potential DRS activation. Don’t miss the chance to EOT bounce something. Basically, when you pilot this deck, just sing Aerosmith's "Don't Want to Miss A Thing" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo_0UXRY_rY&feature=kp) to yourself over and over.

You want to check for anything you could have missed before passing the turn. Just do a quick visual check and ask yourself “Is there anything I could be taking advantage of right now?” I have seen plenty of players just forget to do things EOT or pass the turn when they could have played an additional creature or whatever. There are a million small interactions going on in this deck. It’s impossible to memorize all of them. But it is possible to always stay alert and always be looking for interactions.

Even experienced pilots will miss things. But the goal is not perfection. It is improvement.

For the same reason, you should never fall for an on-board interaction on your opponent’s side of the table. As an Elves pilot, you are supposed to be the king of small interactions. If you fall for somebody else’s tricks, then you should be a sad, sad pointy-eared guy. Shame on you!

To practice NEVER MISSING ANYTHING you can goldfish this deck all day. But that won’t really teach you how to play it. And that’s okay. You’re just trying to learn the mechanics. More on that later. But how do you learn to actually *play* the deck in a live event? Well, you’re going to have to deal with disruption...

c) How to Deal with Disruption

Counterspells Suck!
The best way to beat a counterspell is for your opponent to simply not have one! There are several ways to accomplish this:
1. Run it out there - they don’t have it.
2. Bait them with something you don’t care about - you cast your real spell and they don’t have it.
3. Throw Discard at their hand until they don’t have it.
4. Put THE FEAR into them. Cast your semi-real spells in such a way that they don’t quite know what to counter and what not to counter. Eventually they counter the wrong thing and won’t have it for your real spell.

When trying to bait counterspells in this way, your MVPs will be GSZ for a mysterious number, Elvish Visionary, and Glimpse of Nature. Sometimes you will try 1-4 and they will have more counterspells. Unfortunately, that sucks. Try to assemble your Best Friend Team, draw some cards, and try again. Sometimes the other guy just has it. You can’t win them all.

Also, be sure to always watch your opponent’s eyes. You don’t have to *look into* his eyes. Just watch how they react when they draw their cards and resolve their Brainstorms and whatnot. Most players give away tons of information with their face and body language. Once you get a handle on your deck and don’t need to stare at the board to figure out your own gameplan, you can focus on reading your opponent during their turn. You are the Elves pilot. You are the master of the on-board interaction. So figure it out and then stop looking at it. And start looking at your opponent.

Removal Sucks!

Vs Spot Removal - You will want to run out your Heritage Druids as late as possible, since those can be integral to going off. Or, actually, you can run them out as early as possible if they aren’t needed for your particular game plan, since most opponents will kill them immediately, clearing the way for other things. It depends on the kind of hand you have drawn and the particular lines you are taking.

You also may want to hold back on dropping Wirewood Symbiotes too early since those are key for chaining Visionaries for card advantage. But at the same time, dropping a Symbiote forces them to shoot that instead of whatever else you have out, in case you feel like a specific gamestate calls for protecting a dude right here and right now. It really depends on the matchup and the board, but generally you just want to be careful about which elves you leave exposed on the table and be very deliberate about how you sequence your plays. I can’t give you specific advice because each hand will value a particular elf more than another, so what you are trying to protect will vary from hand to hand.

Also, be aware that smart opponents will want to shoot stuff in response to you playing other stuff, in order to prevent those two cards from interacting (Best Friend Team anybody?). So be ready for that.

Vs Board Sweepers - You typically want to bring in some discard to knock the board wipers out of their hands while trying to assemble the kill as quickly as possible. The best way to beat a board wipe is to kill them before they have enough mana to play it, obviously. But against RUG or decks running 2 CMC spells like Rough/Tumble or Pyroclasm, you will need some discard to help out. Also boarding into NO+Progenitus helps against decks with damage based board wipes. The decks with Wrath effects, however, are typically a bit slower and give you more opportunities to use discard effectively. Going aggro mode and dropping a Gaddock Teeg is also an option in those situations.

Discard Sucks!
This is fairly simple, but you just want to play out your hand as quickly as possible. Just dump the damn thing. No need to slowroll. If a deck is running Hymn, you want to cast your hand as quickly as possible. This can sometimes make you feel gross when you topdeck your Glimpse only to see all your dudes on the board, cast to preemptively dodge discard, but that’s just how it goes sometimes.

Also be aware that they will sometimes attack into your Best Friend Team and then post-combat cast discard to take away your Visionary forever and ever. Sometimes, depending on the soulread you have, it may be best to take that Goyf swing and bounce the Visionary EOT to dodge Hymn.

VI. How to Evaluate Opening Hands
There are about five (5) kinds of hands outside of the obvious ManaScrew or ManaFlood. And depending on what kind of hand you draw, your gameplan will change drastically. I know that sounds super obvious, but this deck has several gears it can run on, and knowing which you are on will help a lot. Because if you are committed to going dude/aggro mode, sometimes that makes it difficult to combo out when you finally draw a Glimpse. But if you are on a speculative Glimpse draw, you will know not to just go crazy and play your hand out before you can properly set up a Glimpse turn. Of course, drawing into a Natural Order will usually supercede any plan you happen to be on.

One rule of thumb to keep in mind, an Elvish Visionary (or two!) can always make a hand better. Think of it like a Brainstorm as far as hand evaluation..

a) The Perfect 7
This includes 1-2 spells, preferably different ones, and 1-2 lands and a mix mana/utility dudes to fill out the rest. We are an equal-opportunity deck. We want our hands to be full of diversity. The ideal hand will have a GSZ or mana dork for T1 acceleration into T2 board development into T3 win.

b) The Imperfect 7 (Utility)
Similar to The Perfect 7 but instead of having DRS/Heritage Druid/Llanowar Elves, you have something like Nettle Sentinels+Quirion Rangers+Elvish Visionary or whatever. These are just on the edge of being meh. If you have an Elvish Visionary these can sometimes be salvageable. Generally these hands are keepable but are always kinda disappointing. If one of your spells is a GSZ, then you should be alright.

d) The Dude-Draw
These draws aren’t the best things in the world. If you have an Elvish Visionary then these become alright. Depending on the matchup, though, I will gladly keep these and just go on the beatdown plan.

Sometimes you are forced keep these hands against Ponder/Brainstorm Combo decks because A) those are bad matchups anyway and mulling to death is bad and B) those decks have a tendency to durdle pretty hard. If you just present a decent clock you can often beat them up before they coddle their combo together. Alternatively, you can run these hands in hopes of topdecking a NO/GSZ/Glimpse. That’s an 11 card out and with a dude heavy hand, you can usually present enough mana to take advantage of your boomboom spells.

e) The Spell-Cleaver
If the spell you are flooded on is Green Sun’s Zenith, then you can work around that. Obviously you will be operating at a slightly slower pace, so keep that in mind. But opening a grip with lands + 3 GSZ isn’t terrible. You can still play Magic. However most other spell-heavy hands will be instant mulligans.

This is also why we run only 3 Natural Order in the main. Drawing 2 in the early game is sometimes :( . And drawing more than 2 Glimpse of Nature is usually somewhat gross because you won’t typically have enough dudes in hand to take advantage of your Glimpses. Regardless of how gross your hand is, there is always the opportunity to win off of a single resolved Glimpse and being able to run a couple out allows you to eat some counterspells. But usually these get mulled.

f) The ClunkerHoof
These are hands in which you draw your Craterhoof (or Regal Force). These can sometimes be salvageable if the rest of the hand has a lot of action, but oftentimes these hands are essentially mulls to 6. If the hand, minus the Hoof, is something I would keep on a mull to 6, then I would just keep these hands. Mulling to 6 isn’t worth potentially mucking up your lands/dudes ratio just to not have to see the Hoof in your hand. These hands are also less gross when you are running 2 Hoof in the main. And we can realistically craft together 8 mana without too much difficulty with a decent 6. It’s not like you’re holding a Progenitus.

VII. Sample Hands
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
a) Sample Strong Hands
b) Sample Mediocre Hands
c) Sample Weak Hands


VIII. Mechanics
Forget about matchup strategy and sideboarding tips and reading your opponent’s poker face. This deck requires all of that plus some boring technical stuff!

When bringing this deck into tournament play, you will need to be very clear about your actions and triggers and mana and basically everything. Unless your opponent is the kind of person who leaves his online banking password taped to the outside of his laptop, I would guess that most players will not trust that you just have the win. They will want you to be very clear about how you work through your combo. For most players, its a standing rule to make the combo guy play out his shenanigans on the off chance that he messes up and throws away the game. Don’t let that happen to you!

Also, be cognizant of your pace of play. If you are a derpy Elves player who takes forever to work through the combo, people will moan and groan when they see your name on the pairings sheet. Be polite and considerate. Try to combo out quickly, clearly, and Craterously. Nobody likes watching another dude ineptly touch his deck for ten minutes straight. Bazinga!

a) Counting Mana
I use an abacus but you can use dice, tokens, sticks of spearmint chewing gum, whatever! Just make sure you have a clear and visible way of showing how much mana you are floating. I personally do not like dice because it takes me a few seconds to find the right number and if I do that 10-15 times while spending and gaining mana, it can be a bit annoying for both my opponent and myself.

Whatever you do, don’t just verbally count your mana out loud unless you are some kind of genius. Opponents can get confused if you go through your interactions too quickly and they will often ask you to back-up a few triggers to double check you have as much mana as you say you do, so you will need some item to track it with. Also it helps to have a static place for the number to sit (not in your head!) so you can take a break and add up other numbers, like Craterhoof damage or whathaveyou, without getting confused. That way you can work out how you will continue to play out the combo without stopping, thinking of new numbers, and then forgetting the mana number you had in your head. In longer tournaments this will save you a ton of brain drain over the course of the day.

b) Once-Per-Turn Abilities

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Elf%20Primer%20pics/wirewoodused2.png
If you have watched anybody pilot this deck on SCG Open coverage, you are likely familiar with the common practice of flipping cards upside down to indicate their usage. Make a habit of doing this with Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote. I believe most people are accustomed to this practice but I felt like I should put it here just for posterity.

c) Summoning Sickness
In the process of comboing off, or just doing tappy, bounce, tappy chains, you will often end up with half your field summoning sick and the other half not. When you finally land your Hoof, you definitely need to know what is and isn’t sick, and with a board full of elves in various positions, that can sometimes be really confusing. And some people are inclined to just pick up three elves, slap them together, and activate them for Heritage Druid’s ability without keeping careful track of what is and isn’t summoning sick.

As a general rule, just keep them separated into different sections on your playmat. I typically keep my summoning sick guys behind my lands while going off. If you really want to pick up three Nettle Sentinels and tappy tap them together, then at least verbally announce which is sick just so your opponent knows what is going on.

d) Land Drops
There will be game states where you will be digging and comboing and doing all kinds of things...and then you draw a Gaea’s Cradle that can win you the game, if only you were allowed to play it. But through all the craziness of your comboing, neither you nor your opponent can remember if you played your land for the turn. This is an awkward and unpleasant place to be.

To avoid this, always announce your land drop for the turn. This will serve as a reminder to you as well as your opponent. And be cognizant of dropping lands as you work through your combo turn. Don’t just drop a Forest unless you absolutely positively need it to continue comboing. You will inevitably draw a Cradle soon after and feel like an idiot. And if a Cradle is an out for you (it usually is), just make sure your opponent is aware of where your land drops are as you work through the turn. You never want to be in a position where you ask, “Did I drop a land this turn?” I’m not sure what the technical rules are, but I feel like an opponent can just say “Yes” and if you honestly don’t remember, then the truth of the matter becomes slightly irrelevant. As far as a mediating judge is concerned, you don’t remember and your opponent just said “Yes”. Best to just avoid all that and maintain clarity through your combo turn.

e) Short-Cutting
While comboing, once you have established a series of plays that always has the same result, you can announce to your opponent that you will begin shortcutting to save time/sanity. For example, if you have two Nettle Sentinels in play along with a Heritage Druid and a resolved Glimpse of Nature, you can cycle through that chain a few times and then announce “For every 1CMC guy I play, I’ll gain 2 mana, 1 card, and that guy will be tapped for the next iteration” or something like that. Otherwise you can sometimes get lost in the minutiae of manipulating the operations of this deck. And your opponent will become even more bored and frustrated with you. Shortcut. It’s the gentlemanly way of playing combo.

IX. Sideboarding
Link to Julian’s Guide
I have added Julian's excellent Sideboarding Guide to the post below this one (because this first post was about to hit the character limit!) and if you are looking for detailed sideboarding tips, you should check out the next post in the thread or just CLICK HERE! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=731679&viewfull=1#post731679)

X. Tournament Reports
Here are some fun tournament reports to read from around the interwebz. Mostly from this here website! I have listed the pilot, their placing, and the number of Swiss rounds they played in so you can get an idea of how big that tournament was.

-Julian23 BOM Champ 15 rounds (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27397_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-2.html)
-Julian23 Undefeated 6 Rounds BOM Trial + Sideboarding Guide (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27386_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-1-.html)
-nudon T4 6 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26962-Elves!-Top-4-Split-at-MTGDeals-10-27-2013)
-danyul T8 @ SCG SEA 9 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26943-Lost-in-the-Woods-SCG-Seattle-Top-8-w-Elves-10-20-13)
-Julian23 Undefeated 6 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26924-Elves!-6-0-at-our-52-man-monthly-Legacy-tournament-in-Nuremberg-Germany)
-pocari79 T8 5 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26815-Washington-DC-GPT-Top-8-with-Elves!)
-Kayradis 3rd 5 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26682-Ruric-Cratherhoof-and-Friends(3rd-Place-Maritimes-Magic-Tour-w-ELVES!))
-danyul T4 7 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26619-Lost-in-the-Woods-Top-4-Mirkwood-Cup-95-players-8-25-13)
-danyul T4 7 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26327-Top-4-Mirkwood-6-30-13-72-players)
-igri_is_a_bk 15th @SCT STL 9 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26216-NO-Elves-15th-at-SCG-STL)
-danyul T2 7 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26047-Lost-in-the-Woods-GP-Portland-a-Tale-of-Pearls-Poops-and-Progenitus)
-danyul T8 @ SCG SEA 9 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25925-7th-Place-with-Elves-SCG-Seattle-Open-4-21-13)
-chinEsE girl T8 7 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25912-Back-to-back-Another-Jupiter-Games-Top-8-with-Elves)
-chinEsE girl T8 7 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25458-Elf-You-Top-8-at-the-February-Jupiter-Games-NELC)
-danyul T4 6 Rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24511-Top-4-at-Mirkwood-Arlington-WA-with-Combo-Elves)

XI. Recent Finishes
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
XII. Required Reading
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
XIII. Honored Elven Warriors
As seen HERE. (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26901-SCG-Legacy-Open-Philadelphia-1st-Elves.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/drantholumias/Elf%20Primer%20pics/4eec1b56-6dc4-4c8b-b205-dbd30f3315a3.png
-Reid Duke, Guardian of Gaea
-Julian, Lieutenant of Llanowar

You can find the old SpeedOfDark Elf thread here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17168-Deck-Elves-Combo)

[danyul]

(Julian's) Elves Sideboarding Guide (with a bit of help from Tammit67)

As seen in Part 1 of Julian's BOM Champion Tournament report over on SCG which you can find here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27386_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-1-.html

Part 2 (without any specific sideboarding tips) can be found here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27397_28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen-Part-2.html



A lot of you guys have been messaging me with questions about how to sideboard with this deck. Because you're playing almost zero reactive cards in the maindeck, sideboarding with Elves doesn't come as naturally as with most other decks. So let's just get right into medias res here.

Disclaimer: Don't blindly mirror my sideboarding if it doesn't suit the strategic approach you are following for any of these matchups. Mindless sideboarding without accounting for what you are actually seeing out of your opponent while neglecting the strategic thoughts behind the exchanges you make is a sure way to just lose. Losing sucks.

Miracles

+3 Abrupt Decay
-3 Heritage Druid
+2 Pithing Needle
-2 Glimpse of Nature
+2 Thoughtseize
-2 Nettle Sentinel
+1 Natural Order
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Progenitus
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
(+1 Scavenging Ooze if they have Snapcaster)
(-1 Quirion Ranger)

"Ach! Hans, run! It's a miracle!"

This is Shiva, destroyer of worlds. Our matchup against Shiva is awesomely bad, and I advise staying away from it at all costs. Seriously, game 1 against Miracles is a really tough one. I've spent dozens of test games trying to find a practical way of actually grinding out Miracles in game 1—yes, I'm that crazy. In the end, the best advice I can give you is trying to close out the game as soon as possible. Because you don't have the tools to efficiently fight neither Counterbalance nor Top, your best bet is to put them on the spot for having Terminus as soon as possible. Remember, that when bad odds are still the best odds you can get, it's the absolutely right play to go for it. Way to often do I see people complaining about somebody making a perceivably "bad play"—like playing right into Terminus—without actually understanding that odds of winning the game on the spot at 30% is still better than your regular game 1 percentage against Miracles of about 20% if you try to grind it out.

After sideboarding things become way easier. Which doesn't mean that you're not still the underdog. I like siding in the Progenitus package, as unlike your other Natural Order options Progenitus can only be handled by Terminus, which means that your other NOs will stay live. I also used to side out both Craterhoofs here, but once you manage to shut down Sensei's Divining Top with Pithing Needle, the Hoof kill actually becomes semi-viable again and requires them to have a Brainstorm into Terminus to stop it. The rest should be pretty much self-explanatory. If Thoughtseize them on turn 1, always aim for their Sensei's Divining Top unless there's an incredibly convining other card you want to take.

In case you're running Gaddock Teeg, here's a trick for you; if your opponent Swords to Plowshares your Gaddock Teeg during a crucial moment (e.g. a lethal attack), you can Abrupt Decay his Top in response. This leaves him with the decision to either save his Top and be unable to cast his Terminus or lose his Top and risk losing the game right away.

RUG & BUG Delver

+3 Abrupt Decay
-2 Heritage Druid
+2 Thoughtseize
-2 Nettle Sentinel
+1 Natural Order
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Progenitus
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
-1 Glimpse of Nature

Your matchup against the supreme tempo decks of the format is really tricky. Especially against RUG, Natural Order can sometimes become more of a liability, so consider siding out the Progenitus package on the draw (in which case you might also not use the Thoughtseizes). Against BUG Delver, I'd always want to keep in the Natural Orders as their clock is just a tad slower than RUG's because their tempo suffers from a slightly higher mana curve.

Strategically, you will often find your first three or four creatures being instantly removed, so plan ahead and try to lose some Symbiotes instead of actually good ones. Especially Deathrite Shaman is of highest importance since it helps a as it basically shuts down almost all of their win conditions over time. Thoughtseizes should usually go for either their hard countermagic (in order to resolve Natural Order) or big blowout spells like Toxic Deluge. Note that Golgari Charm can be very annoying but will usually not stop you from Natural Ordering, so don't give it too much credit. Abrupt Decays are there to buy you time against Delver or remove problematic permanents like Grafdigger's Cage (very annoying) or Engineered Plague (less annoying). Generally speaking, I don't really mind Engineered Plague all that much as you can still easily setup Natural Order.

While most BUG variants are rather easy and should favour Elves, RUG is one of the harder matchups you are going to face, especially on the draw. Feel free to derivate from my sideboard strategy if you think you found an approach that works better. Just make sure to let me know about it!

Jund

+2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Heritage Druid
+1 Natural Order
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Progenitus
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Jund is definitely one of your better matchups. They might have access to all the answers (Punishing Fire, Engineered Plague, Liliana of the Veil, what-have-you) but often run into problems actually putting up an offense while disrupting you. Their best bet is casting Hymn to Tourach or Thoughtseize after your second turn in order to hit an otherwise devastating Natural Order. After sideboarding, expect Engineered Plagues. If they also sideboard Grafdigger's Cage, you want to go up to three Abrupt Decays.

Merfolk

+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
-1 Heritage Druid

Sideboarding Abrupt Decay is exactly what that pesky water mages want, so you should refrain from it. Spending two mana early on will get you nowhere against Merfolk as chances are it won't even change their clock. Instead, you should side in Pithing Needles and name either Aether Vial or Mutavault, most likely the former one. This will usually slow down their clock by two turns and is an investment I'd gladly make early on.

Death and Taxes

+3 Abrupt Decay
-2 Heritage Druid
+2 Pithing Needle
-2 Nettle Sentinel
+1 Natural Order
-2 Glimpse of Nature
+1 Progenitus
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

The good news: they will be dead to Progenitus, rare corner cases like a Mirran Crusader with Jitte aside.

The bad news: they will usually have access to Aven Mindcensor aka Grafdigger's Cage on a stick. This is basically all that happens in this matchup. Try to go for a Natural Order as soon as possible, preferably when they are unable to flash in the annoying Bird Wizards from Future Sight. Bonus points if you've even got the Abrupt Decay ready. You can try to find out whether they have the Mindcensor by using your GSZ aggressively in situations where they could actually have it. Other than that Pithing Needle is there to either stop Aether Vial, Umezawa's Jitte or Mother of Runes protecting the Mindcensor; you might also want to just name Wasteland / Rishadan Port if your mana is vulnerable.


As Legacy Champs draws nearer over here in Philadelphia, I'm going to start posting more frequently my test results, sideboard plans, and general matchup analysis. While probably borderline useless to the elf veterans, hopefully it can save a few of you some trouble.

Matchup analysis:
Elves vs Death and Taxes

Elves is highly favored preboard, highly favored to favored post board.

Current configuration:

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

Sideboard:

1 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Swan Song
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Progenitus


How their deck works:
Death and taxes primarily will attempt to attack mana development in any matchup, but their game plan is quite ineffective here. D&T will look to set up port/waste/thalia to keep opponents from developing meaningful board states while chipping away life totals through smaller disruptive creatures backed either with mother of runes and/or equipment. Hands without vial often have to choose between spending resources to hinder the opponent or lay a threat.

We are a turn 3 deck that isn't going to fold because natural order costs 5 or because a creature gets swords'd.

Preboard Overview:
Between 5 mana dorks, 3 heritage, 2 birchlore and 4 GSZ for turn 1 arbor, we can develop our board faster than they can and a single cradle activation undoes turns of work on their end. The game usually ends turn 3 or 4 after glimpse or natural order resolve. Hands without either of these bombs might still be fine but you'll need symbiote + visionary or a naturally drawn Craterhoof since the 1/1 beatdown plan gets quickly outclassed on the ground. Reclamation sage does wonders in answering potential equipment situations, as well as Phyrexian revoker, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and to a lesser extent Aether Vial.

Aven mindcensor is the most backbreaking play they can make although fewer lists are running it. It turns off a primary win condition and flies to allow equipment to be useful. Mirran crusader blowouts are also a possibility.

As we are pretty favored here, we really want to focus on how we lose games and avoid those pitfalls. I'll cover my common losses later.

Cards they might bring in:

Rachet bomb
Ethersworn cannonist
Grafdigger's cage
Council's judgement
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Holy Light
Cataclysm


Boarding: -2 Nettle Sentinel, 2 Glimpse of Nature, 1 Craterhoof Behemoth (-1 heritage)|| + 3 Abrupt decay, 1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus, 1 null rod
Reasoning: Glimpse might be the worse of the engines in this matchup, partially because how strong Natural Order is and how we are adding dead draws mid-chain to compensate. Abrupt decay answers everything short of batterskull. I don't mind heritage druid in the matchup since I basically am only looking to produce 4 mana in the face of some number of ports/wastes. (It has been mentioned null rod might be a good addition that I've overlooked)

Postboard Overview:
They will have more hateful permanents but are still completely at the mercy of your draw step. Reclamation Sage along with abrupt decay or wirewood symbiote will remove whatever they have standing in your way. The onus is on them to draw the right effects at the right time while we do not have an answer handy.

Progenitus is the main gameplan, followed by glimpse chains (for value or unlikely combo) and the long Reclamation Sage grind. Some lists have 2 council's judgement in the 75 however, so don't be afraid instead to just go for a non-lethal hoof swing to drop them within deathrite range for the next turn.

How we win:
Generate board presence through their typically low disruption starts and end the game with the usual bomb. They have the option of disrupting us or pressuring us but cannot do both before the above happens.

How we lose:

Turn 1 Deathrite/GSZ off a fetched bayou meets swords and wasteland. AVOID THIS, especially if we are on the draw
Keeping a weak had that produces a lot of mana but nothing else and let them set up equipment.
A greedy natural order gets mindcensor'd
They present a lot of removal/disruption as we draw uncastable cards
Their hate piece coincides with our drawn method of winning (Cage > Natural Order/GSZ, Spirit > Draw engines)
All in on Progenitus meets their 2 of council's judgement


A special note:
Protection from green via Mother of runes or Mirran crusader and Jitte/Sword of fire and ice can be played around. Morph Birchlore ranger, unmorph him and bounce him with symbiote. Especially in a 2 birchlore list, there is little excuse for equipment to connect without a flyer being present. if you are getting beaten frequently by this, consider changing GSZ priorities or mulliganing durdling hands that give D&T time to set up.
Shardless BUG

+1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Birchlore Rangers
+2 Thoughtseize
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Progenitus
-2 Heritage Druid

Shardless BUG is actually one of your best (blue) matchups and one of the reasons why I believe that Elves is currently excellently positioned in the metagame. Pre-board the only cards you really care about are Force of Will and Discard. Fortunately, a lot of lists have lately been cutting back here, especially on countermagic. But even if they manage to disrupt your early on, their biggest problem comes in the form of an agonizingly slow clock. Tarmogoyf has issues actually connecting through Quirion Ranger and Wirewod Symbiote while the rest of their creatures is just way too slow— or just die to Viridian Shaman.

After sideboarding your Natural Orders become even better, as they will often lack an actual out to Progenitus. A very common line of play is them tapping out on turn 2 for Engineered Plague with you untapping into Natural Order. Watch out for Grafdigger's Cage (and to a lesser extend Envelope) though and side in more Abrupt Decays should they have it (as they should).

U/W/R Delver

+3 Abrupt Decay
-3 Heritage Druid
+2 Thoughtseize
-3 Nettle Sentinel
+2 Pithing Needle
-2 Glimpse of Nature
+1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Progenitus

This matchup pretty much plays out the same way as other tempo decks. Side in the Needles as an additional way of dealing with Grim Lavamancer and Umezawa's Jitte. Unless they are running the in my opinion subpar Meddling Mage instead of Ethersworn Canonist, side out two Glimpse of Natures. Your main plan in this matchup is Natural Order for Progenitus. With the current switch from Geist of Saint Traft to True-Name Nemesis, don't be afraid of siding out Nettle Sentinels; if they play Elecktrickery, though, I'd rather cut something else.

Storm

+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+2 Thoughtseize
-3 Elvish Visionary
+2 Mindbreak Trap
-3 Wirewood Symbiote
+1 Natural Order
-1 Nettle Sentinel
(+1 Scavenging Ooze against ANT, not TES)
(-1 Glimpse of Nature)

There's not a whole lot I can tell you about this matchup. Name Lion Eye's Diamond with blind Cabal Therapys in order to stop (most) turn 1 kills and then flashback on your next turn. Your main goal here is to delay them just long enough for you to dive right into Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. That's why I think Mindbreak Traps are still ok in this matchup. However, if you expect a lot of ANT (instead of Belcher, Spanish Inquisition etc.), consider exchanging the two Traps for Thorn of Amethyst. Also note that due to your usually very quick early game beats delivered by Nettle Sentinel they will often be forced into Past in Flames, which means Deathrite Shaman + Quirion Ranger become super effective.



Matchup Analysis
Elves vs AnT/TES

Elves is highly unfavored preboard, unfavored (to even?) postboard

Current configuration
Same as previous.

How AnT/TES work: they are looking to cast 10+ spells in the same turn, sometimes backed by discard to clear the way. We don't have a meaningful way of interacting with them preboard outside of graveyard management and racing and unfortunately, we are a turn slower on average.

Preboard overview: TES is certainly a worse matchup than AnT. TES rarely cares about its graveyard and also is a little faster. Don't expect to get to turn 3 often against TES. You can identify TES byt eh rainbow manabase and lack of basics. Multiple chrome mox, paired with burning wish and rite of flame are also telling. If your opponent is named Bryant Cook, you might also assume TES.

AnT on the other hand can be slowed down (albeit slightly) with deathrite shaman and scavenging ooze if you run ooze. Natural order into Ruric Thar, the Unbowed or a hoof kill are the avenues of victory we are looking for. AnT has terrible Ad Nauseum flips despite it being the name of the damn deck and will attempt to either chain infernal tutors into tendrils of agony or past in flames into tendrils. If you have a chance outside of them bricking for 5 turns, it is going to be off the back of a quick combo or deathrite preventing threshold'd cabal ritual and past in flames.

Cabal ritual alone isn't enough to distinguish between the two storm variants anymore, but if you see 3+ cabal rituals and/or basics and/or grim tutor, it isn't TES.

Hide the splash you are playing. If you are splashing white they will certainly bring in bounce, same with red. Not fetching Tropical Island will hide possible swan songs. Mindbreak trap/thorn of amethyst/surgical extraction might already be on their mind during boarding, no need to give them a better clue.

Similarly to the Death and Taxes matchup, one side is pretty heavily favored. It is less about how tight elves is playing and more about how well the opponent is playing and with which decisions they follow through.

Cards they board:

Chain of Vapor
Grapeshot (Burning wish)
Void snare (Burning wish)
Slaughter pact
Abrupt Decay


Boarding:: -4 elvish visionary , 3 wirewood symbiote, 1 wren's run packmaster, 1 reclamation sage, 1 craterhoof behemoth, (1 Glimpse of Nature against AnT if I'm on the play) || + 1 Null rod, 2 thoughtseize, 3 cabal therapy, 2 swan song, 1 natural order, 1 Ruric Thar, (1 Scavenging ooze if I'm on the play)
Reasoning: If I'm going to win, it is going to be through speed, not some grinding gameplan. Go up to the full set of natural orders to help get Ruric Thar down. Hands without some form of disruption aren't keepable. Scavenging ooze is useful against the GY reliant AnT deck but often too slow if I can't power him out on the play. AnT also almost universally only runs a single copy of tendrils as the win condition, so removing it with deathrite would be game over. Remember Birchlore can give you blue mana and you don't always have to optimize your attack in order to bluff having one (But if it is going to give them an extra turn by doing so, probably not worth it). Surgical extraction is useful once again against AnT but not TES.

Note: Not everyone has this much stuff to bring in, but identifying what cards to take out is a matter of determining how the game is going to progress. "Faster games don't need Visionary, longer games aren't as reliant on heritage combo" is basically what I've been doing after looking over Julian's SB'ing from his victory over at the BoM(Link here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27089-SCG-28-1-2-With-Elves-Winning-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen!-Part-1&highlight=Elves)).

Postboard Overview: Since Elves has been running some form of hateful permanent since Gaddock Teeg, some form of antihate is usually finding its way in for the storm pilot and it is probably chain of vapor. Leaving fetchlands uncracked is useful to hiding a blue splash, but be careful! Older TES lists ran silence, so if you try to fetch in response to a spell to swan song and get silence'd, you are screwed.

Mulligan aggressively and look to survive until turn 3. Postboard games are a lot about how much disruption you are packing and can present in a timely manner and hands that do not provide heavily in speed or disruption are suspect. Thankfully, the disruption is usually really effective at letting us chain into more disruption or a win condition.

Elves!

+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Thoughtseize
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
-2 Elvish Visionary
-1 Wirewood Symbiote


The mirror match is all about speed—so practice your die rolls! Once you're done, remember to always name Natural Order with Cabal Therapy. You should definitely not sideboard Mindbreak Traps here; especially on the play, diluting your deck in this way is a prime example of playing not to lose where in fact you should look out to capitalize on your huge tempo advantage. On top of that the Trap will almost never stop Natural Order.

Dredge

(+2 Thoughtseize on the play)
(-1 Viridian Shaman & -1 Elvish Visionary)
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

You're rather soft to Dredge, but at least on the play you should often be able to simply outrace their Zombie army with the help of Craterhoof Behemoth. Once you're on the draw in post-board games, try hitting either their discard outlets or card draw spells with Thoughtseize.

Here are some more suggestions for sideboarding. As mentioned before, always adjust your configuration to what you actually see out of your opponent. Usually two or three Heritage Druids come out against removal-heavy decks in order to make room for the Progenitus combo (in which case you can easily cut one Craterhoof Behemoth). I also like siding out two Glimpse of Natures against decks with access to Ethersworn Canonist. The rest should be pretty much self-explanatory.

Painter

+3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+2 Thoughtseize
-2 Nettle Sentinel
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Glimpse of Nature

Sneak and Show

+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Thoughtseize
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Elvish Visionary
-2 Wirewood Symbiote
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel

Omni-Tell

+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Thoughtseize
-2 Elvish Visionary
+1 Natural Order
-1 Wirewood Symbiote
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel

Maverick

+3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+1 Natural Order
-2 Glimpse of Nature
+1 Progenitus
-1 Heritage Druid
-2 Nettle Sentinel

Reanimator

+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Thoughtseize
-1 Elvish Visionary
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Wirewood Symbiote
(no need for Needle as they will just Elesh Norn you)
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Birchlore Rangers

[Darklingske]

Awesome primer Danyul!! Congrats on all the work!

[Dice_Box]

Cool. I do think adding Beck to the list of playable spells for those that want more than 4 Glimpse effects might not hurt. Also, if you are playing the mono green version, Vexing can help you get around counters.

Love the pics too. Make me smile.

[kingtk3]

Thank you for the hard work danyul!!!

I find this primer inspiring and, though I don't own any NO, I would build this deck with more creatures, an Emrakul and one or two beck//call.
I'm busy at work in this period but I'll try to build it as soon as possible.

[Nihil Credo]

Nice primer!

I've moved the threads and added a link to the old one at the top. Leave the link in place for a month or two until this thread has gained "critical mass" so to speak, then you can move it to the bottom of the primer.

[Lemnear]

Finally something which is worth being called an elves primer. Thx Daniel for putting this together and hopefully keep it up to date.

I just fear the last passage of that primer is the official invitation to continue the discussion about the Priest/Archdruid Budget lists here; especially if the old Combo Elves thread will be replaced with this one.

[catmint]

Very nice work. Funny read and some good tipps. Maybe you/we can contribute a little bit more to specific matchup guides including boarding plans versus the very common matchups. That is an area where also a lot of debate happens so I think it is important to include different take on things until the community figured out what is the optimal plan.

For example I am sure some people bring in Decay versus esper to handle jitte, whereas I think cabal therapy is much more important due to supreme verdict and the opportunity to pick up Jitte after SFM resolved.

Versus RUG you can make an argument for cabal therapy to deal with rough/tumble, however I think against such a removal heavy deck every body counts and flashing back therapy is not an option. In this matchup I feel to be the control deck and therefore want decay to kill delver trying to stall the ground with wirewood/quirion before eventually an ooze/glimpse/NO takes over. In this matchup being manascrewed is the biggest issue and since EVERY dude makes mana (with cradle) I am pretty sure cutting 0 creatures is correct. Some competent opponents will bring in fluster storm in addition to pierces making it really tough to rely on GSZ and the other good sorcery spells.

Your take on aggro is a little bit too generic I think. Jund should be the current core focus and I would not describe the matchup as positive. It can be quite tough if they have a lot of cheap removal early on. The key is to puke out as many creatures as possible and post-board I would go for Progenitus (with a 2nd arbor) and make sure there is always another creature on the board.

[Dice_Box]

I can do a write up vs Goblins if it is needed. I have played Goblins for years and know them very well.

Also after rereading your post I am looking on Ebay for a compact abacus... you have been a bad influence on me... The idea itself though is a very good one.

[JanoschEausH]

What a great primer! Awesome work danyul!

[danyul]

Thanks everybody for the kind words! Your critiques have been noted and I will work on addressing those throughout the week. I agree that the matchup coverage is weak but I told everybody I would have it finished by Sunday and I wanted to turn this in on time! I'll definitely shore that section up though, among others. There is still work to be done.

I also want to go comb over the old thread to bring up the talking points people were discussing and port them over here.

@Dicebox
I use an old Duelist abacus(https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/The_Duelist_Abacus_Life_Counter_Green.c43p260788.prod) but they are a bit hard to find and expensive at that. Cheaper alternatives would be a Max Protection abacus (http://www.abugames.com/item208204-new/0/70-magic/Life-Counter---Max-Protection---Abacus-Battle-Counter---Yellow.html) but you can also have people customize them out of your favorite Magic card. Something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWNI2OmO0JU). Lots of Alterists know how to make those for a nominal fee (~$30).
Good luck!

[MD.Ghost]

@Danyul: Great work! - now we can discuss the real things

@Dice_Box: all tricks are welcome ;)

[Zombie]

Wrong picture of Elvish Visionary. Thread needs more Oblivion Ring. Viridian Shaman especially and Scavenging Ooze as well should be promoted as standard options: Playing Shaman main is not paranoia, it's common sense. Not playing Shaman main is just plain greedy.

In other news, I has Cradles <3
Now, if some bastard only sold/traded Bayous for something reasonable...

[nudon]

Good job Daniel! It looks much more polished than your first draft. I would probably add the discussion we had about not boarding in cabal therapy on the draw against belcher since they'll most likely be able to empty their hand t1 anyways. Only traps (if you run them) and pridemage/sliver/shaman should be brought in on the draw.

[Tangente]

Very comprehensive primer! I would mention Beck // Call as possible 5th Glimpse of Nature. I mean if Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is mentioned as experimental card so Beck should be too. And maybe you may add some tips related to mirror match, e.g. sideboarding Cabal Therapy when you are on draw.

[lordofthepit]

Nice primer, but I don't see any mention of Nissa's Chosen.

[Dice_Box]

Nice primer, but I don't see any mention of Nissa's Chosen.
Thats because it does not go into to the deck. There is both no space for it and no strong reason to run it.

[Julian23]

"If you cannot handle the swings,"

..you don't play no limited hold'em aka Legacy.

Just had to get the Rounders reference in there. Great primer, thank's a lot. What I'm now looking foward to is detailed matchup analysis, especially the mirror match.

[venice]

Nice primer Daniel! Thanks for putting in the work! The only thing I would like to see in more detail, is the "SB-Strategy section". Everything else is very well written imo.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, a quick write up on dealing with Goblins.

Goblins.
Matchup: Favorable.

Goblins is an Aggro Control deck that wins though fast creatures and cheating things into play. They also lock down the mana of the opponent in a controlling way to limit the possible responses that can be thrown against them. They achieve this by using cards like Goblin Lacey and Aether Vial to bring into play cheaply more expensive cards than most legacy decks play. They use Port and Wasteland to lock down greedy mana bases and they excel at the mid range game. None of this matters a whole lot to us. They will generate quite a large card advantage over most decks, sometimes even us with the right start, using cards like goblin Ringleader or tutors like Goblin Matron. The deck also runs some very strong CitP effects that it abuses with Vial. Stingscourger when played at instant speed can throw a spanner in the works. Sometimes Goblins splash White. If they do this the most likely card to see is Thalia. Not a great issue for us.

Their control is weak against a deck that does not really need Lands to play. A first or Second Turn Mana elf will all but make the control aspect of this game a non issue. They will attack your Cradles though and try and keep you off your Dual lands. Bring out Basics early, keep any Duals you need to play off colour cards in your hand until you need to play that spell. If possible show as few colours as you can. Also do not rely on DRS to fix all your mana issues for you. While you may have a large amount of mana for him to target, he himself will be the target of burn. Play your opens a bit more defensively.

Game one:
A turn one Lackey is best blocked. Open with a DRS or a Nettle if you have them. You need to block him and they are both are safe from a turn two Gempalm. They may use some other burn to push him though, if that has happened get ready for a race. From their hand, the things to watch for are Sharpshooter and Siege-Gang Commander. Sharpshooter may not be in their main board, but Commander ALWAYS will be. Its strengths are that it enters with a trio of tokens and it can deal directed damage. Watch for open Vial's. If it is ticked up past 3 then get ready for one of the bigger creatures, Siege, Krenko or Ringleader. Another MVP is Piledriver. Playing goblins this one card has won me games more than any other. When it attacks, block it. It does not have trample so do not fear it.

Game Two:
Expect Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis and possibly Chalice of the void. Bring in anything you have that can add defence to your Creatures, Discard and Art hate. Do not dilute your combo to do this though, your speed is something they can not match. Sharpshooter will be their MVP. If they fetch for it, make them discard it. Also the other strong advantage you have is that you can see what they get off of Ringleader. This makes Therapy a much easier card to play in this match up. They will likely have cut Vial due to its slow speed but if they do play one it is sometimes best to save your hate, just in case they do have Chalice. If you have Jitte too bring that in. Nothing else hurts like Jitte. Most of their Creatures only have 2 defence. Its painful.

Conclusion:
Your speed is their bane. Their higher cost cards, a reliance on getting unblocked hits against you to cheat things in or the slow Vial means that it can almost be a bye game. At the same time they do have burn, they can slip in Lackeys past you and they have some nasty drops. If they burn out your combo feel free to go into Agro mode. You have the ability to drop far more creatures than they do and much faster. Also Jitte if you get stuck. The card is pure printed evil.


Turned out not to be quick....

[Koby]

"If you cannot handle the swings,"

..you don't play no limited hold'em aka Legacy.

Just had to get the Rounders reference in there. Great primer, thank's a lot. What I'm now looking foward to is detailed matchup analysis, especially the mirror match.

Ha! that one's easy. Be the first to play Priest of Titania, then be the first to draw your Regal Force/Behemoth/GSZ. Skill game.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Play out the first Cradle too. At least for the next month until the legend rule changes, that'll give you an edge even if you can't use the mana.

Great job on the primer, danyul! There's always more to be done with those things, but we all appreciate your time putting it together.

About Riley's list, do we think those two copies of Thoughtseize in the sb would be better as Silence or Surgical Extraction? I've never tried either spell in Elves. Does anyone have experience with them?

[Dice_Box]

I am going to run a full set of Extraction in my side tonight. I will let you know what I think of it.

[phazonmutant]

Loved the primer! Detailed and funny. One thing, though. The Alot would like to have a word with you.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TRIo4br3I/AAAAAAAACv4/Zh7_GcMlRKo/s1600/ALOT.png

Alot of words.

[Zombie]

http://i46.tinypic.com/6dwjv4.jpg

[danyul]

LOL okay guys. I really do appreciate the kind words. I'll definitely take your suggestions and comments into consideration when I find time to make edits.

But we should talk about the deck now!

Tonight I tried Riley Curran's list from the most recent SCG Open at my local weekly and I kinda like the 2nd Dryad Arbor in the main. It helps the grindy matchups in a very subtle but tangible way. Also the MD Viridian Shaman and Scavenging Ooze were pretty spicy. I dunno. I like every elf list I play. How the shiz am I supposed to know what to do!

IRT Surgical Extraction - this card is a trap. Sometimes it does nothing. Sometimes it is a blowout. I'd much rather just run the Thoughtseize out there and guarantee some value from my SB spell. And running a full set of them is definitely sketchmode2000.

[Zombie]

Current deck:
3 Cradle
2 Rotation
2 Hoof
Shaman
Ooze
Archdruid

SB:
1 Progenitus
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Teeg
1 Bog
1 Harmonic
2 Decay
2 O-Ring
1 K-Grip

Thus far in goldfishing, the third Cradle has been boss. The second turn is so much smoother. The lack of Regal/Prog/Ruric does make itself felt a bit. It's annoying to lack that inevitability option when Hoof Smash just feels like hurrying up unnecessarily.
Thoughts on the board? Have you found the 4th NO important? I feel kind of iffy about the Grip, but then again Miracles and Leyline of Sanctity are a bitch. The O-Rings are hedge against SnT and just a random catchall.

EDIT: One thing I'm also thinking about is swapping either the Grip or the Archdruid for Sylvan Safekeeper.

[catmint]

For me the 2nd dryad arbor goes to the side for all NO-Prog matchups.

One maindeck ooze and another one in the side are set for me. This creature is way to important in the Delver matchup.

[lordofthepit]

Thats because it does not go into to the deck. There is both no space for it and no strong reason to run it.

3-toughness is tech because it can block Dark Confidant in combat. I would suggest Elvish Archers but 3-toughness helps against Grim Lavamancer and Rough/Tumble.

Also, Wirewood Symbiote isn't even an elf. I get that it protects your creatures from removal, but Troll Ascetic is immune to removal and survives all the cards above. If we can make room for non-elf like Symbiote, I think we can fit a Troll in.

[LeoCop 90]

Lord of the Pit : This thread was created just 2 days ago and danyul has put a lot of work in it, so please could you stop trolling? Or do you think anyone will consider your words when you are suggesting Nissa's Chosen ?

I have a question : how can we make 4 mana turn 2 to cast a natural order using quirion ranger? i read it in the old thread(then forgot it) and now I'm assuming the only way is :
-turn 1 forest llanowar
-turn 2 tap forest play quirion. Play cradle, tap it for 2 mana, tap llanowar, return the forest to your hand, untap llanowar and tap it again.
Am I right or other methods exist?

these interactions are the ones that make me a bit skeptical about running a full set of deathrite shaman. A lot of times there won't be 2 lands in graveyards during the second turn, so a llanowar elf is better in these scenarios. I well know the strenght of deathrite, but I think next time i will run 3 of them and 1 more llanowar.


Dice Box: I am a long time goblins player too, and although i feel the matchup is a bit favourable to elves, defining it almost a bye seems too much. i won several games with goblins vs elves. Don't forget that most goblins lists play sharpshooter main deck, so the elves player is forced to win as late as turn three because an active sharpshooter is an autoloss. Not that is difficult for elves to win turn three, and not that the opponent will always have shooter in hand, but this must be taken in consideration. Things can get difficult if goblins is on the play and starts with lackey ; in this case you must land a deathrite or nettle sentinel to be safe (unless they have a tarfire or stingscourger in hand), or be forced to trade one of you 1/1 with lackey and slow your game down.

After sideboarding cards like pyrokinesis and chalice of the void are a real pain for the elves, so the matchup feels much more equilibrated.

[Julian23]

Ha! that one's easy. Be the first to play Priest of Titania, then be the first to draw your Regal Force/Behemoth/GSZ. Skill game.

So how do you feel about Cabal Therapy? Over the last two tournaments I went 4-1 and 3-1, each time only losing the mirror match. It just felt like a race into who would be able to win on turn2.

[Tangente]

I have a question : how can we make 4 mana turn 2 to cast a natural order using quirion ranger? i read it in the old thread(then forgot it) and now I'm assuming the only way is :
-turn 1 forest llanowar
-turn 2 tap forest play quirion. Play cradle, tap it for 2 mana, tap llanowar, return the forest to your hand, untap llanowar and tap it again.
Am I right or other methods exist?

There are a lot of methods. Off the top of my head:

(1) T1 play forest and Quirion, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf, untap with Quirion and again tap for 3 mana
(2) T1 play forest and Nettle, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf and again tap for 3 mana
(3) T1 play forest and ranom elf, T2 play Cradle and random elf plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana (1 mana left from Cradle)
(4) T1 play forest and mana elf, T2 play Cradle and Birchlore and random elf, tap Cradle for 3 and two guys for 1
(5) T1 play forest and random elf, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play Symbiote, return tapped elf and untap other tapped elf, replay returned elf and finaly tap them for 3 mana.

[catmint]

Also a reason why I still play ruric thar. Altough 4mana T3 is much more common, I want every NO to become a "hate piece" vs. combo.

[Kayradis]

Great primer. I found myself playing more and more of the combo-ish green dudes recently.

[nudon]

There are a lot of methods. Off the top of my head:

(1) T1 play forest and Quirion, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf, untap with Quirion and again tap for 3 mana
(2) T1 play forest and Nettle, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf and again tap for 3 mana
(3) T1 play forest and ranom elf, T2 play Cradle and random elf plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana (1 mana left from Cradle)
(4) T1 play forest and mana elf, T2 play Cradle and Birchlore and random elf, tap Cradle for 3 and two guys for 1
(5) T1 play forest and random elf, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play Symbiote, return tapped elf and untap other tapped elf, replay returned elf and finaly tap them for 3 mana.

6. T1 forest->mana elf, T2 ranger+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, bounce forest and untap mana elf
7. T1 forest->mana elf, T2 symbiote + cmc1 elf off mana elf and forest, cradle for 3, bounce cmc1 elf and untap mana elf

Edit: 8. T1 forest->ranger, T2 ranger+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, play another elf and bounce 2 forests to untap 2 elves, tap for 3
9. T1 forest->ranger, T2 cmc1 elf+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, play 2 cmc1 elves, bounce forest and untap elf, tap for 3

[Koby]

10. forest GSZ for Arbor, turn 2 cradle, Ranger = 4 mana

[andrebonotto]

danyul,

Here's one more to congrat you for the new primer. Good job!

One more thing: you might consider worth add to the "tricks" section, that "10 ways of casting Natural Order on T2" that our colleagues just described. :smile:

...

[EDIT]

P.S.: Regarding the "History of the Deck", just to mention it, some french Elfball players (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=4818) at www.legacy-france.org have been playing with "Gw Mirror Entity Elves" for quite some time before Chris Andersen try it. Maybe the user named "blind" could be a little more precise on this matter, if he is still following this thread.

(I try to keep up with their debate often, but it is a little bit difficult task for me, since I do not master the french language very well, and they seem to be a little more 'unforgivable' to 'outsiders'/'newcomers'...)

[nudon]

I think it'll be helpful to group similar T2 NO hands together and state interchangeable parts for those unaware. Nettle and ranger are generally interchangeable. With a mana dork and cradle in play, ranger, symbiote+cmc1, and birchlore+cmc1 are interchangeable. Birchlore+nettle can often be substituted for a heritage druid. To illustrate, I grouped several of the "permutations" together below.

mana dork, ranger / symbiote+cmc1 / birchlore+cmc1, cradle (OP, 4, 7, 10)
heritage druid, 2 cmc1, cradle (3)
mana elf, ranger+heritage druid (6)
heritage druid, 2 ranger / nettle / symbiote+cmc1 (1, 2, 5, 8)

[Dice_Box]

Ok, ran Extraction last night, my thoughts on the card.

As dedicated grave hate:
Last night was the first time I ran the deck with DRS. Extraction was just not needed. When I has sided in, I wanted total grave hate, not piecemeal hate. I would have killed for a Crypt, hell Loaming Shaman would have been good. I wanted something that would end totally the situation at hand. Not something that would remove a single card. DRS fixed each issue just fine when I had it, a Crypt would have work out just fine as a back up.

As a Counter killer:
Hitting FOW was fun, knowing it was gone was good. But it did not pay it's way when I needed to draw something useful. The counter had been played, I had lost the card I wanted or I had at least used something that was of a high enough value that is was worthy of a counter. I would have been happy to draw something else of "Counter worthlyness" than this card after that. Something like NO or GSZ, this was useful, but it was not helping me get ahead, not helping win.

As an information source:
I got to see the deck I was playing against. Thats great, really. I can not say enough how much I liked this. Seeing the other guys hand tho, I would have rathered a discard card than this. Since it is not mainboard anyway, 7 times out of 10 I think you will have a fair idea of what you are playing against. While looking at a deck is great for siding for game 3, so is seeing how you lost in game two. Info is great, but you do not need a card for it.

As a land killer:
I thought this would be where the money was. Take out their fetchlands and watch the deck crumple. Thing is it just does not work well enough. If I was playing with Wasteland than I can see this working. But with most decks are running DRS and such a low CMC base, killing 3 fetches from the deck is not anywhere near as useful as hitting fetch targets. If I played like this I would want to hit non basic mana lands. Even then its not great since most decks only run 2 or so of each dual.

So final thoughts: There are better cards out there.

[SpencerS]

Thankyou so much for starting a new Elves thread.

I feel like we can actually start to have real discussions now!:smile:

Is this an appropriate place to put forth tournament reports? I have gone to the last 2 SCG Seattle opens, ( 26th and 72?nd) and would love to share the last one in preparation for the one in Sept!

[Lobo]

Ok, ran Extraction last night, my thoughts on the card.

[...]

I would have been happy to draw something else of "Counter worthlyness" than this card after that. Something like NO or GSZ, this was useful, but it was not helping me get ahead, not helping win.



I haven't played with Surgical Extraction yet, but what you wrote here sounds right to me. It's tempting to sit back and imagine all the possible excellent uses for a card like SE, but this kind of wishful mindset can be alluring and dangerous. We have to keep in mind the damage we do ourselves when siding in more than the minimum number of cards. Part of what makes our deck powerful is that nearly every card functions as a terrific threat. Our most lowly 1/1s threaten to break most games wide open thanks to their synergies with virtually everything we play. I'd usually rather top-deck a dork than a Surgical Extraction. And if the idea is that I should mulligan until I've got Extraction in hand as an answer to, say, Reanimator, well, I'd rather just play the uncounterable Faerie Macabre. As an answer to other kinds of decks, SE seems rather impotent.

I admit that Surgical Extraction is hard to play properly so maybe I'm just ignorant of its best-use cases. Depending on meta needs, I feel either (1) a dedicated hand-picky or (2) a dedicated graveyard hate card would be better. If SE were in my board, I really don't know when I'd board it in, since presumably I would have already boarded in some Cabal Therapies before it, and anything beyond that just weakens our deck.

It just seems like a card that needs countermagic alongside it to function best. E.g. "I counter your spell, and now I SE it for two life" seems a lot better than "I watch your spell resolve—but hey, don't do it again!"

Also, thanks so much for the new primer, danyul.

[Julian23]

I recently ran 3 Surgical Extraction in my board as my recog team provided information about 2 people being on Dredge at our local tournament.

Played against it first round and boy would I have lost without being able to interact on turn1. It also helped a lot drawing into more of them when my 2nd turn mini glimpse soon fizzled. I can see not needing SE against other gy-dependant decks, where Ooze will be your best trump. But against Dredge, I feel really naked without SE.

[Lobo]

I recently ran 3 Surgical Extraction in my board as my recog team provided information about 2 people being on Dredge at our local tournament.

Played against it first round and boy would I have lost without being able to interact on turn1. It also helped a lot drawing into more of them when my 2nd turn mini glimpse soon fizzled. I can see not needing SE against other gy-dependant decks, where Ooze will be your best trump. But against Dredge, I feel really naked without SE.

Julian, wouldn't Faerie Macabre have performed just as well as Surgical Extraction? Or was the ability to rip all extra copies from your opponent's hand/library crucial for you?

Faerie is more narrow in its focus than SE, and thus seemingly harder to justify in the board. But as I wrote above I try not to board in more than 4-5 cards for fear of diluting the elf deck's strengths, so unless I'm facing a graveyard deck I would be reluctant to board in SE anyway (i.e. it would be too much to bring it in alongside Cabal Therapies, NO+Progenitus, Teeg, and whatever else). So if I only really want SE against dredge, reanimator, and the like, why not run a more focused graveyard-hate card in its place, whether that be Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void or some other card?

[Kayradis]

Lately, I found myself looking at Leyline of the Void more and more...
I know that too often its a dead card, but for the simple interaction of a T0 get rid of dredge/reanimator decks might push me to include some in the SB. It is still highly debatable, since the SB I play is pretty much locked. I used to run Faerie Macabre at one point and up to 2 surgical extraction at another time. The printing of DRS was probably one of the best thing to happen to the deck since GSZ. I wouldnt want to dilute the deck.

My own 2 cents.

[Dice_Box]

I find the Leyline's are a 4 or nothing idea. You need them in your opening hand, so you need as many as you can place in the deck to increase your chances of not having to Mull to 3 and still not find the card. Compound this with 3 dead draws and I just find them more of a hassle than a solid gain. You're putting all your eggs in one basket and if you do not happen to draw it well, not pretty. If I NEEDED a turn 0 answer I would likely go with Macabre or Extraction. Yes Void can last the whole game and kill a game plan, but it can kill your whole game plan too if you have to mull to 3 to get it. Especially in a deck that runs so few lands. Last thing you want is to watch the other guy take 6 turns while you look for a land, then, just to be an ass, your deck gives you a Cradle.

[Julian23]

Julian, wouldn't Faerie Macabre have performed just as well as Surgical Extraction? Or was the ability to rip all extra copies from your opponent's hand/library crucial for you?

The most important thing to hit was Bridge from Below as this move buys a lot of time. Of course, I'd much rather have Surgical Extraction in this scenario. Problem for both Faerie and SE is Cabal Therapy flashbacks before you get to hit the card you really want to go for. So in one game, I actually extracted his Golgari Grave-Troll when he went all-in on turn1 and had no other dredgers left. In this case, Faerie would have been almost as good.

Against Reanimator, Faerie while being vulnerable to Pithing Needle still triumphs SE. Against combo however, especially with Cabal Therapy from the sideboard, i like brining in 1-2 Surgical Extractions after all. I'm not yet decided on which card I prefer though. I've got 3 foil Faerie Macabre as opposed to nonly non-foil Extractions...:eyebrow:

[Kayradis]

Last thing you want is to watch the other guy take 6 turns while you look for a land, then, just to be an ass, your deck gives you a Cradle.

Unfortunately, I do have to agree with this statement.

[Zombie]

Anyone else go all googly-eyed "Wow, that's so free" when looking at Deathblade maindecks?

[Mr. Froggy]

Amazing primer danyul! Really well done!

[igri_is_a_bk]

How did DRS not make the graphic though?! He's the best elf! :tongue:

I'm currently on Riley's list -1 fetch, +1 Q. Ranger with a very combo-biased sb since top 4 at my LGS last week was Belcher, SnT, Tinfins, and Dredge. Ugh.

1 NO
1 Pro
4 Therapy
3 Silence
1 Teeg
1 Thalia
2 H. Sliver
1 Ooze
1 S. Library

If I get turn one'd, meh, it happens. Traps are great in your head, but terrible in practice from what I've experienced. Another reason I'm not in favor of MBT is that Teeg is my priority. If I can get him into play turn two, then great, that would be the play. Yet, I don't want to turn off my other hate after I've played him. Just another reason why MBT is out. Leyline of Sanctity would suffer from the same problem, but that would be much better in your opener compared to MBT. Just sayin, in case anybody wanted to try it.

edit - Adjusted after testing a little today.

[thefreakaccident]

I wish that the DTB's were decks that win simply because of interactions found by good pilot... Alas, they happen to be some of the simpler decks to pilot, so much so that even monkeys can pilot them. Unfortunately, it's not so much how you play anymore, but what you play.

[Lemnear]

I wish that the DTB's were decks that win simply because of interactions found by good pilot... Alas, they happen to be some of the simpler decks to pilot, so much so that even monkeys can pilot them. Unfortunately, it's not so much how you play anymore, but what you play.

This is because people tend to play the easier decks resulting in those being more likely to face which is all the DTB section cares about.

If the DTB were defined by the pure power of Decks in skilled pilots hands, you wouldn't see here "crap" like Goblins, Meerfolk or even ANT but TES and Terminus-free Miracles

[Julian23]

This is a mistake that has been present, like, forever.

Being the "Deck to Beat" does not neccesarilly mean "Best Deck"; that would be "Deck to Play". A "Deck to Play" could easily be a Tier2, see Death&Taxes performance at GP Straßburg.

[chinEsE girl]

Today I top 8'd the monthly event at Jupiter Games, making me 3 for 3 on top 8'ing tournaments this year. I can post my list later if anyone's interested in what I've been running.

[Dice_Box]

To everyone talking about Results and posting lists. You should do this. The best way for us to see what works is to see what others are both playing and playing against. As for the deck to beat thing. Decks will rise and fall, the simpler decks will always draw the bigger crowds. Those and the decks seen as most powerful. Thats why so many people play blue. It is seen as the most powerful colour and thus is near on worshiped in Legacy. Also one of the reasons I do not want to touch it. People will take the path of least resistance to a goal they have set themselves. Personally I love Tribal styles and the complexity that comes with it.


Now I have a question for the floor. Here is the scene:

Its game one, you have no idea what you're up against, your on the play and your look at your hand. In it you see not a god hand but one you feel is going to carry the game in your favor. The issue is the only land you have is a Dryad Arbor. Do you take the slower hand with most of your combo pieces or do you Mull and try again?

[Alexeezay]

Dice_Box You definitely mulligan that Hand. Too many Legacy decks play Wasteland or Swords to Plowshares/Lightning Bolt/whatever.
It's just way too risky. Also, a slow hand needs more than one land...not guaranteed at all that you draw another land
It doesn't matter which deck you're facing in the first place. Even decks with discard can take away your next good play (1 mana spell) & if you don't draw land you can't do anything, even with the Dryad Arbor out.

[LeoCop 90]

What I am afraid of for this deck is the possible ban of Gaea's Cradle. After the announcement of the changing of the legendary rules, wizard said that they will monitor the situation of legendary cards, especially lands.
Well, if there is a land that could lead to degenerate results, that is Cradle.
If Cradle got banned this deck would lose a lot of power... from another point of view it would be nice because now the land costs about 100 bucks wich is crazy :)

[Mr. Froggy]

What I am afraid of for this deck is the possible ban of Gaea's Cradle. After the announcement of the changing of the legendary rules, wizard said that they will monitor the situation of legendary cards, especially lands.
Well, if there is a land that could lead to degenerate results, that is Cradle.
If Cradle got banned this deck would lose a lot of power... from another point of view it would be nice because now the land costs about 100 bucks wich is crazy :)

I was thinking of the same thing, the banning of Cradle...

[Justin]

I'm doubting that Cradle will be banned. Sure, the new legend rule makes it stronger. Occasionally, you will be able to win a turn earlier because you played a second cradle and tapped it for mana. But how often will that happen and end up being the difference between winning and losing a game? I think that Elves and other decks that abuse Cradle would have to dominate the format like Survival decks did before we see a banning. While Elves gets a little faster and stronger with the new legendary rule, I don't see it dominating the format. The deck still has the same weaknesses it has always had.

[Dice_Box]

I do not think Cradle will go either. Mostly because as has been said before, having two of them one after the other does not make the deck any more broken than it is to start with. Also with Crop Rotation many of us have been playing with 2 cradles in a turn for a while.

[Tangente]

I agree too. Cards get banned when they broke entire format and not because they are strong in one specific deck. New legendary rule results into the Elves deck becomes a little bit faster and resilient and a little bit more expensive :) Now I just can't see any other deck that would abuse a power of Cradle.

[Fatal]

Maverick ? :]

[Lans89]

A lot of Maverick players don't even want to play 1 Cradle, so nothing changes (only vs Elves, but previously it wasn't bad to kill a cradle with your own!)

[Julian23]

Guys, these are not the droids you're looking for. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation/page236)

[SpencerS]

Moving along.

My former roommate and SCG top8'er, Ben (RUG DELVER) and I have been discussing matchup %'s lately. In the previous Chris Anderson Mirror entity version, Elves would tend to dominate RUG even post board. Now however with our beloved DRS and snapland base we are more reliant on our spells and lands. I have seen this match plummet after more RUG players start playing more chain lightning main and up to 3 rough/tumble in the board. We tend to win the grinder matches thanks to visionary, but post board they get to bring in a fair amount of hate in submerge and sweepers.

Typically assuming we win game one, what is you sideboard strategy for RUG Delver?

-Side in your hand attack?

-Side in just ooze and/or abrupt decay?

-Side in No/Pro plan?

Each of these has its merits, I will be testing them out to try and improve the post board game plan against RUG. would like some discussion on this then perhaps we can move to deathblade strategy etc?

[chinEsE girl]

Here's the list that I played this weekend for the NELC at Jupiter Games. There was only 59 players this month, so a nice easy 6 rounds of swiss, but I got paired down in the 5th round so I still had to go 5-0-1 to get in the top 8.

4 Nettle Sentinal
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation

9 Green fetches
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest

SB

4 Cabal Therepy
1 Ruric Thar
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

My thoughts on the list, and the deck in general:

-The deck is absurd. Like really absurd. You get to have a fast kill condition that puts your opponent to zero pretty quickly if they don't disrupt you enough, and against the decks with a ton of disruption visionary + symbiote will take over any long game.

-That just leaves faster combo decks as the one problem. The one deck I lost to on the day was OmniTell, which is one of those faster combo decks. It just sucks that its more resilient to our disruption than other combo decks than say storm. Honestly if Show and Tell ever gets banned I think Elves would become the best deck in the format by a good sized margin.

-I think that the rotation package for the board has to go. It was cute at first, and actually good when sneak and show was popular, but right now it's not very good. There needs to be more cards to fight against things like OmniShow. I am definitely going to be making room for several thorn of amythest for the next event I play in. Plus I'll be playing 4 cradle when the new legendary rule changes, so rotation won't really be necessary anymore.

-Ruric Thar should have been in the main. If that had been the case, my turn 2 natural order against OmniShow in the top 8 would have won me the game on the spot. Instead, I had to get regal force and whiffed on the cards that I drew. The shaman was for the people I thought would play the UB tezzeret deck, but no one at the event was playing it. There were maybe 3 decks in the room with chalice vs the 8 or 9 players with fast combo. Bottom line I'm keeping Ruric in the main unless the shaman needs to come back in.

-I think my sideboard could use some more work, but I'm not sure exactly what direction I'm going to go with it. I'm at least cutting lands for thorns and then putting Ruric main and shaman side. After that I'm not really sure what I'll be doing with the list next.

[chinEsE girl]

Moving along.

My former roommate and SCG top8'er, Ben (RUG DELVER) and I have been discussing matchup %'s lately. In the previous Chris Anderson Mirror entity version, Elves would tend to dominate RUG even post board. Now however with our beloved DRS and snapland base we are more reliant on our spells and lands. I have seen this match plummet after more RUG players start playing more chain lightning main and up to 3 rough/tumble in the board. We tend to win the grinder matches thanks to visionary, but post board they get to bring in a fair amount of hate in submerge and sweepers.

Typically assuming we win game one, what is you sideboard strategy for RUG Delver?

-Side in your hand attack?

-Side in just ooze and/or abrupt decay?

-Side in No/Pro plan?

Each of these has its merits, I will be testing them out to try and improve the post board game plan against RUG. would like some discussion on this then perhaps we can move to deathblade strategy etc?

I'm personally a fan of ooze and/or decay. The games you lose are never to goyf or mongoose, it's always to delver of secrets. The other creatures get blanked very easily and give you a lot of time to set up the win. Delver on the other hand keeps the pressure on you and makes you have to go off to early and then often fizzle. If you have decay for delver their pressure pretty much vanishes. I'm not sure what the best answer to rough is, but there has to be something. If we can figure that out the matchup should become a whole lot easier post board.

[Alexeezay]

Same taste as chinese girl here, boarding in Decays & Ooze. I also board in the Progenitus for a Behemoth (running 2 atm) because they can't beat it.

[MD.Ghost]

Typically assuming we win game one, what is you sideboard strategy for RUG Delver?
-Side in your hand attack?
-Side in just ooze and/or abrupt decay?
-Side in No/Pro plan?

Each of these has its merits, I will be testing them out to try and improve the post board game plan against RUG. would like some discussion on this then perhaps we can move to deathblade strategy etc?

I play 1 Scavenging Ooze Main (because you often need it, if your opponent plays enough disruption game 1), my current Sideboard contains 1 Thrun, the Last Troll (+1 Jitte, instead the more common 4th NO+Progenitus). Thrun is good enough against Tempo, contains the ground, attack for more than Delver/Nimble, works with your untap Creatures and you don´t need any Setup (Natural Order) and also don´t have to worry about any Counter or Submerges, Roughs etc. If you include Ruric, you can try to fight Delvers too.

With Ooze (and Ruric Main)

I typically board:

+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Thrun
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Jitte (if i play it over Mortarpod)

works good so far.



-Ruric Thar should have been in the main. If that had been the case, my turn 2 natural order against OmniShow in the top 8 would have won me the game on the spot. Instead, I had to get regal force and whiffed on the cards that I drew. The shaman was for the people I thought would play the UB tezzeret deck, but no one at the event was playing it. There were maybe 3 decks in the room with chalice vs the 8 or 9 players with fast combo. Bottom line I'm keeping Ruric in the main unless the shaman needs to come back in.


As i said before.

Last Week during a small local tournament, me and another Elves Player also tried the Mainboard Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (instead of Regal Force) and beat various common Decks like Tempo and Storm. So we obviously had to play the Mirrormatch, after the dust settled, we got the first and second place. Ruric works great so far and nobody expected the raging Oger.

[feline]

Dang, top 8'ing SCG Seattle, an awesome new primer, Danyul you're tearing it up around here! Nicely done.

[unemployer]

How are your matches lately? Anyway, I removed the Regal Force in my MD and placed a 2nd Hoof and so far, it surprised a lot of players. I don't usually play a second Hoof but I never play the Regal either. But if you ask me, having a 2nd Hoof for me is way better than a Regal Force. I had 3 games where I had the hoof and Nat.O in my hand and couldn't cast it because I can only generate 5 at that moment. It took me 3-5 turns before I had to cast it and had a lot shenanigans

[catmint]

I certainly agree that a primer should be "open" and not stick to player specific choices. However the reason for a new primer is to get a good picture of the current best/most popular option. The option which has been "established as optimal" and there is no space for emrakul or living wish.

The points you brought up could be mentioned in a "historic review" or "past variations which might come back or might be good depending on meta/playstyle". If so then mirror entity should also be mentioned. :)

[danyul]

Thanks for all the praise, and let's call it constructive criticism, about the primer. I have been busy with IRL stuff (transitioning from one job to another, trying to be a real person, blah blah) so I haven't had many chances to really dig in and make edits, address concerns, or make all you weirdos happy, but it's on my to-do list. Trust, my bruddah.

To any haters sippin' on that haterade, go look at other primers. I would argue that this one is a *marked* improvement over the previous one and that, in general, it is on the high end of primers you will see on this site. That said, it could use some work. All of them could. I put maybe 10 real hours into it, if you don't count all the time I spent just staring at it, hating my life. But these random kids making accounts just to pee in my coffee need to slow their roll, brah. If you want to make a primer and include *every* subpar card choice that this archetype has ever seen, then sure, be my guest. But know that people will call you a stinky weirdo for playing those cards.

I will say right now that I don't see the merit of discussing Intruder Alarm in a serious primer. I wrote a primer for the Gbw iteration of the deck. I appreciate your extremely high standards in casually-written Magical card game strategy guides, but I am not at all interested in writing a primer about Elves as a creature-type, and all the various iterations of decks that may incidentally include cards with the creature type - Elf. You may want to hit up Craigslist if you need a pro-bono writer for your Legolas fanfic.

As far as playstyle choices, I just wrote how I play the deck. I tend to do fairly well with it and people had been asking for a primer so, BLADAOW, primer. I agree that I could buff up probably every section of this primer, and it is on my ever-expanding to-do list, but calm down guys. The world isn't ending tomorrow. We have plenty of time to get things done.

Also, can we stop talking about the primer and start talking about the deck? I tried MD Ruric Thar. I hated it. I think I'll toss it in the SB because it may still have merit there. I'm also testing 2x Reverent Silence to address the UW Miracles/Helm Combo matchup. We'll see how it goes.

[Koby]

Also, can we stop talking about the primer and start talking about the deck? I tried MD Ruric Thar. I hated it. I think I'll toss it in the SB because it may still have merit there. I'm also testing 2x Reverent Silence to address the UW Miracles/Helm Combo matchup. We'll see how it goes.

Daniel, I'm confused. Why play Reverent Silence when it only answers one matchup, when Abrupt Decay exists and has absolutely no chance of being countered? The RIP is going to be a hinderance to DRS regardless, so it stands to reason that removing it with Abrupt Decay not only breaks up the Helm combo, but also re-enables DRS. Now Counterbalance is still a concern, so going to more Abrupt Decay makes sense if this deck is prevalent in your metagame. Alternatively, GSZ is the best course of action against such a deck.

I've come around to the idea of Natural Order in the deck; but I'm only going to play two copies. The sideboard will still be boarding into combo-hate so there's no sense to add further copies of NO when the deck is already so greatly favored against fair decks.

[danyul]

Those 2 Reverent Silence are accompanying 3 Abrupt Decay. I have been seeing a lot of Humility and Moat lately, which Decay cannot touch. Also, let's just say I'm a bit of a dreamer. They can randomly hit Dream Halls, Sneak Attack, and Omniscience sometimes. But by the time those land, we might already be dead.

The card might be a terrible idea. But I cut the MD Crop Rotations and SB Karakas/Bojuka Bog and wanted to test some flex slots. I expect we will see a lot more of that OmniShow deck and I couldn't think of another card to help that matchup and Miracles at the same time. I guess Krosan Grip is still a card but having to have the 3 mana up all the time is a pain. I appreciate your hesitation IRT my card choices here. Sometimes I get a little wishy washy.

[Absolutflipz]

I'm currently trying out a few Wirewood Hivemasters in the sideboard to bring in against the fair matchups, as I think he better replaces something like Sylvan Library. I also play with 2x Beck//Call which he is obviously absurd with.

In the games I've cast him, he's performed very well and provides an immediate threat and army with only a few cards invested.

I think he also begs the question of being tried out in a deck with Mirror Entity.

I definitely believe he deserves consideration somewhere given how well he performs in the fair/grindy matchups.

[Julian23]

Ive gone from MD Ruric Thar to no Ruric Thar at all. In the end, I think I still want it in the sideboard since turn2 NO for Ruric Thar is often a better play than Gaddock Teeg against Storm combo, considering the greatly increased clock and their inability to play anymore cantrips. I'll still keep Teeg around to have even more outs to combo like GSZing into it.

[Dice_Box]

You may want to hit up Craigslist if you need a pro-bono writer for your Legolas fanfic.
Sig'd.

Also when I played again on tuesday I learnt something. I am not anywhere near as good with this deck as I am the goblins. I consistently find myself thinking in a "Beatdown" mindset. In short I am now at the point where I want to start either playing more than once a week to get the hang of it, or change some of the deck to meet my half combo half agro play style. My question to everyone, what did you play before this and how long did it take for you to change your viewpoint when playing? For me it has been 11 years with red agro decks. Switching to combo, while rewarding, is challenging.

Also if you managed to change how you think, what did it take? How did you do it?

[Koby]

Elves has two modes:

Mode 1: Draw a bunch of cards and combo thru with Glimpse of Nature.

Mode 2: Turn sideways and activate it's Power & Toughness settings in an all out brawl.

Mode 1 is always the preferred method. Mode 2 is backup. Drawing cards is almost always the correct plan (including the Wirewood/Visionary tricks)

[igri_is_a_bk]

Those 2 Reverent Silence are accompanying 3 Abrupt Decay. I have been seeing a lot of Humility and Moat lately, which Decay cannot touch.

My favorite way to beat Humility is with Jitte. I haven't had any in my sb for a while, but I used to play two, and they were obviously very back-breaking in those situations. But yeah, it's not helpful against Moat. Sometimes I wish we had Jitte again so we could go into beat down mode without overextending as much as we have to. Even getting out the minimum amount of pressure with this deck is usually ~3 creatures since so many only get in for one.

Anyways, for those two cards, good ol' K-Grip may be your best bet.

[Zombie]

My favorite way to beat Humility is with Jitte. I haven't had any in my sb for a while, but I used to play two, and they were obviously very back-breaking in those situations. But yeah, it's not helpful against Moat. Sometimes I wish we had Jitte again so we could go into beat down mode without overextending as much as we have to. Even getting out the minimum amount of pressure with this deck is usually ~3 creatures since so many only get in for one.

Anyways, for those two cards, good ol' K-Grip may be your best bet.

For anti-overextension I'd just play Hivemaster

[danyul]

Jitte is a very interesting idea. I am definitely intrigued there. And IRT Hivemaster, I have always liked that card and wouldn't mind testing it as a singleton. But I imagine it gets exponentially better with each additional copy you run. Hmmmm.

[igri_is_a_bk]

For anti-overextension I'd just play Hivemaster

The worry from overextending is that a sweeper will x-for-one you and Hivemaster doesn't have any benefit over Jitte in those cases. Against Supreme Verdict, Perish, and Terminus, I'd rather have Jitte. They both lose to Deed and EE @ 2 but Hivemaster may have made a couple 1/1s along the way, giving him a slight edge against the latter only. In any case, Jitte looks like the clear winner for this purpose. I'm not saying it should be a staple or anything.

[Zombie]

The worry from overextending is that a sweeper will x-for-one you and Hivemaster doesn't have any benefit over Jitte in those cases. Against Supreme Verdict, Perish, and Terminus, I'd rather have Jitte. They both lose to Deed and EE @ 2 but Hivemaster may have made a couple 1/1s along the way, giving him a slight edge against the latter only. In any case, Jitte looks like the clear winner for this purpose. I'm not saying it should be a staple or anything.

Thing with Hivemaster is that you can aggressively bounce stuff back to your hand while maintaining ptessure. Then in response to sweeper bounce back hivemaster

[danyul]

Now *that* is interesting.

[Absolutflipz]

There's nothing wrong with discussing the inclusion of Hivemaster and Jitte, as they're different cards that serve different/multiple purposes.

Choosing of one should not exclude the other.

Jitte is great against us, it's also great for us as an equipment with so many bodies available, and provides a proactive answer (for the time being) to opposing Jittes or a reactive answer to Jittes which have already come down.

Hivemaster provides the above-discussed benefits in certain matchups. There are definitely places where you would side in both Hivemaster and Jitte, should you choose to include them in your SB.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Speaking in generalities, there is no comparison between Hivemaster and Jitte. A face-value discussion about the best equipment ever printed versus a creature that doesn't even see play would not be very helpful haha. We're discussing the specific use of either against sweepers. I still think the issue is heavily skewed in favor of Jitte for a few reasons.

To really abuse Hivemaster and not overextend, like you said, you need Symbiote in play. But think about it, do you really want to get behind Hivemaster + Symbiote more than Visionary + Symbiote in any instance? It seems safe to assume you'd have one Hivemaster in your 60, so you would likely have to tutor for it. Compared to tutoring for him, Visionary would be the better play a majority of the time. Drawing extra cards is a better plan than deploying a few extra 1/1 insects. Especially against a deck with sweepers, I want cards in my hand.

If we assume you do not have Symbiote, do you simply not play Hivemaster? That would defeat the purpose of his inclusion. Or would you drop Hivemaster and follow with Elves anyways? The second play would force you to overextend; the exact opposite reason we wanted to play him. And if you did have to play Hivemaster before Symbiote, he would do nothing to help once the sweeper does come down.

On the other hand, any random dude and Jitte would be a legitimate threat. Symbiote or not. Additionally, Jitte would stick around with counters after a sweeper, compared to the slow rebuilding process that Hivemaster would require. Besides, Scavenging Ooze is a much better post-sweeper plan when he has loads of fuel in the graveyard.

I'm not certain Jitte is necessary, but I am certain Hivemaster is not.

[danyul]

That makes a ton of sense. I will stop looking at foil hivemasters on eBay now.

[Zombie]

Mostly correct criticism, but I have to note that Hivemaster leaves you with cards in hand: The whole point is just spamming tokens with little actual card investment.

[Koby]

Mostly correct criticism, but I have to note that Hivemaster leaves you with cards in hand: The whole point is just spamming tokens with little actual card investment.

If that's the case, then run Nissa Rivane. Otherwise, your signature says it all. :laugh:

[sauce]

people used to play this in the sb a while back http://magiccards.info/le/en/121.html

[chinEsE girl]

Caller is alright if you're worried about perish, but sadly terminus don't give a fuck.

Stupid fucking terminus.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Caller is really bad in my opinion. You can't afford to leave up three mana in anticipation of a sweeper that may not be coming.

[nudon]

Here are my thoughts on some of the recent discussion:

Caller of the claw - Fecundity is better but probably still not good enough.
Ruric Thar - I tried it main deck and wasn't impressed. Granted, it was against tezzerator and thus very bad against baleful strix. However, I like the idea of boarding it in along with NO#4 against storm.
Moat - GSZ/NO->sliver is a good answer for this. Also with multiple DRS + symbiotes/rangers, we have plenty of reach.
Humility - This is worse than moat but can still be beaten by turning guys sideways. GSZ->teeg can prevent them from landing this too (applies to moat as well). K-grip/nature's claim are options in addition to jitte.
Wirewood hivemaster - agree with igri.

Sweeper answers aside from symbiote + visionary:
EE/deed/plague - Progenitus.
Terminus/supreme verdict - Teeg.
Perish - Fecundity is best thing I can think of.

[Mr. Froggy]

I finished 6th at my LGS today, with 2 Craterhoofs and no Regal Force (they have become somewhat lackluster).

Round 1: Enchantress 0-2
Round 2: Infect (new to Legacy) 2-0
Round 3: Deathblade 0-2
Round 4: Maverick 2-0

Round 1 I almost got the combo, but I was missing 1 greeb for GSZ into Craterhoof. Turn after he playw RiP into Helm. GG

Round 2 Really easy match

Round 3 I had no outs, he kept picking off everything I played...

Round 4 Turn 3 Craterhoof FTW G1, Turn 3 Progenitus FTW G2.

[Zombie]

What did you keep G1 against Deathblade?

[danyul]

Just got home from Top 4ing a 72 man, 7 round event. Report in a few days. SB Ruric Thar was kinda good. Reverent Silence is actually a sorcery (news to me!) and hence, terrible. 2nd MD Dryad Arbor is very good. K I'm gonna go pass out now.

[Dice_Box]

2nd MD Dryad Arbor is very good.
Ok what are the real pros and cons of running a second? I have not seen a lot of talk on this.

Also, can someone run me thought the merits and flaws of running Living wish. I saw a decklist and while I will admit I am intrigued, I find myself not totally sold on the idea.

[Mr. Froggy]

What did you keep G1 against Deathblade?

I kept something along the lines of Symbiote, Visionary, DRS, land, land, GSZ.

Not sure if that was was correct?

Should I keep grindy hands or try to combo as quickly as as possible?

[Zombie]

I'd say that's about as great of a fair hand as you can get. G1 I'd just go for max grindyness or a fast combo start (as long as it's not Belcher style lose to FoW business). Basically they cut Souls so have no Jitte'd fliers so they can have worse Deathrites than us and have a lower blue count for more inconsistent FoW's. Means you just kill them. But do choose a plan and stick to it. If you do things halfheartedly you're just going to be playing to their bag. They're the kings of being halfhearted :P

Postboard I'd grab the Decays onboard in addition to the Therapies. Suckers play Bobs and Detention Spheres so a couple outs is good. Non-Hoof targets also shine here: They have no clock without equipment, and all their clocks can be bounce-fogged so just drown them in cards or Ruric's 3-thing* clock

*Gives the opponent 3 total something, whether it's spells or turns.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'd say that's about as great of a fair hand as you can get. G1 I'd just go for max grindyness or a fast combo start (as long as it's not Belcher style lose to FoW business). Basically they cut Souls so have no Jitte'd fliers so they can have worse Deathrites than us and have a lower blue count for more inconsistent FoW's. Means you just kill them. But do choose a plan and stick to it. If you do things halfheartedly you're just going to be playing to their bag. They're the kings of being halfhearted :P

Postboard I'd grab the Decays onboard in addition to the Therapies. Suckers play Bobs and Detention Spheres so a couple outs is good. Non-Hoof targets also shine here: They have no clock without equipment, and all their clocks can be bounce-fogged so just drown them in cards or Ruric's 3-thing* clock

*Gives the opponent 3 total something, whether it's spells or turns.

I did side in 2 Decays, but I wasn't sure about the Therapies...

[Zombie]

Therapy is godlike against Blade decks. Used to lose to them, now I win.

[andrebonotto]

What do you guys use Therapies for, on these blade MUs? (Their equipment, after SFM grab it?)

[danyul]

Depends on your hand and the boardstate. If I'm about to combo off, I want to name Force of Will or something. If I'm in beatdown mode, I want to name Supreme Verdict. Actually, if they have less than 4 land, I'll snap name Verdict just because that card beats us so hard. The equipment I'm less worried about. We have ways to keep those things busy. Sometimes it's appropriate to name V.Clique as well as they can just strap a Jitte to those and win the game. But we can tie up ground guys all day. Equipment are probably the last on my list of things to name with Therapy.

It just depends.

[catmint]

I did not test elves against this new SCG type of esper, but for the old (non confidant) blade and deathblade version I don't think you can bring in Decays and therapies. Just not enough slots to side out without hurting what makes the deck strong. Also flashing back therapies costs bodies. Therapy is clearly the better card against esper.

Therapy is really gold to grab jitte, supreme verdict, force/pierce. I still board in a GSZ-tutorable way to deal with a jitte. Sure there are enough ways to deal with the jitte on the ground, but competent esper players will have access to clique or manage to keep your bouncers off the table. The GSZ slot for pridemage is worth it imo.

Concerning confidant: I would not panic and let them have it. Our engines to draw cards (and kill) are a lot more unfair. If they tap 2 for confidant we also get time to setup our stuff.

[Zombie]

My Blade boarding looks something like:
-2 Rotation
-2 Heritage
-1 Archdruid
-1 2nd fatty
+4 Therapy
+1 Harmonic
+1 Progenitus

Leaves in Ooze, Shaman, 3 Cradles, full card draw suite.

[nudon]

Glad to see people finally buying into using cabal therapy against stone blade. I personally name jitte after sfm fetches it. If your opponent tutors for batterskull, it's likely they already have jitte in hand. On flashback, I'll pick off any sweeper still in their hand. Overall, I'll wait until turn 2/3 before playing therapy (unlike against fast combo). However if I'm getting ready for a game-ending glimpse/NO/gsz, I'll obviously name FoW. Bringing in decay isn't necessary and dilutes glimpse too as stated above.

+4 therapy, +1 sliver (to pair with MD viridian shaman), -1 heritage, -2 quirion ranger, -2 crop rotation

[Koby]

I don't think Therapy is good in these matchups, personally. You're better off playing the long game with Scavenging Ooze to clean up after a sweeper.

My plan:

+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Abrupt Decay (plague or Jitte or sometimes Bob/Goyf/Delver)

-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Birchlore Ranger (down to 1)
-1 Regal Force (going to 0, otherwise -1 Behemoth down to 1)
-2 Quirion Ranger
-1 Crop Rotation

Also, why the fuck are people playing 2 Crop Rotation? If you have extra non-creature slots play Summoner's Pact.

[catmint]

Scavening ooze is great versus Canadian. Life gain, bolt proof, hate creatures but most importantly serve as a win-con.
While ooze hates a bit on esper as well it does not serve as a proper win con. It can just be trumped by batterskull or be sworded. Wasting a GSZ and mana into building up an ooze is generally worse than building up for a Glimpse/Order/symbiot-visionary.

Decay should come in against decks running Goyf/Delver but we have been talking about deathblade... they usually don't run Plague.

Btw.: siding out the 2nd fattie against esper is wrong I think. One can easily be discarded or if you draw one you still want your NO be able to do unfair stuff.

[igri_is_a_bk]

It goes back to the most fundamental theory of MtG: know your role. Against any variant of Blade, we're aggro. Cabal Therapy is a control card. This may be slightly oversimplifying, but the point is you want aggressive cards if you are also trying to disrupt, like Thalia or Ooze. You can push through counters and rebuild after sweepers without diluting your deck with discard spells that progressively suck more as the game goes on.

Against Esper, I think taking out some number of Q. Rangers is correct since they don't play Wasteland, but against Deathblade I would leave them all in.

[Zombie]

I think we can easily play either beatdown or control vs. Blade decks.

[Koby]

Scavenging Ooze is not an early game card, but it does counter DRS which is why it's boarded in. It's there to deal the game state AFTER a sweeper because it's a one-stop 5/5 or bigger.

Cabal Therapy is pretty weak in a matchup where you don't have specific cards you need to knock out from your opponent. Death/EsperBlade decks have a variety of cards and most of them are not 4-ofs. I could see the case made for Thoughtseize being brought in, but not Cabal Therapy.

Abrupt Decay answers Jitte or SFM->Batterskull or Sword of Feast & Famine. It could also answer EPlague for the times they bring that in. It breaks up an early game-state that allows Elves to go on the aggro plan.

The matchup is not defined as Aggro vs Control. It's defined by Card Advantage. If you can get Visionary/Symbiote going then you're favored. If you can't, you will lose to superior card quality from Esper. Natural Order might be too weak in this matchup most of the time because of the discard/removal.

[catmint]

Fundamental theory of magic tells you that if you are beatdown you cannot play discard? :laugh:

Besides of "knowing your role". It also depends on the draw/gamestate. If things are setup you can generate a lot more card advantage than esper so you are not forced into "i have to kill fast or lose the long game". Absolutely not. Glimpse, Regal Force, Visionary/wirewood. You draw more cards than esper.

Coming back to cabal therapy. Even if you are "aggro". There are specific key cards that matter for the matchup and it is just smart play if you create a gamestate where you can play cabal therapy for a lot of value. (careful: skill required!) Optimally the value of setting up the win. Decay cannot protect you from a force/pierce and or a supreme verdict. So if you are in a situation where you can win if they don't have given cards - well - let your therapy miss and go ahead an win. Also it is very easy to name therapy for jitte after SFM fetches it so you get a card that matters very much + the information of what else to take. If they wait to have 4 mana to cast SFM and jitte in the same turn to protect from cabal. Well the cabal already did some work and now they are likely outtapped so you can go ahead and win or fetch pridemage to deal with that jitte.

Abrupt Decay cannot do anything of the above mentioned. You don't have any options to "control" the game in the sense of setting up your critical turns and you don't get the valuable information on how to move forward the optimal way.

@ooze: I can see a 1 for the "post sweeper" scenario if you have nothing synergistic and feel it will win. I play 1 main and don't side him out, but I would not bring my 2nd one in. As I said he is much less important and only situationally worth fetching versus esper.

[Zombie]

What do you guys use Therapies for, on these blade MUs? (Their equipment, after SFM grab it?)

It depends. If I have a combo hand, FoW, naturally. If I have a fair hand, clocks and sweepers. Which, depends on the situation. It's a lot easier if they play Deathblade because all kinds of equipment are much less scary with no unblockable Souls tokens to carry them. But in general, if it walks and doesn't have prot. green, it's foggable and thus not very scary. We can protect our life total against grounded pressure very well, draw more cards than they do (Using Glimpses as counterbait and Ancestrals is gold), have recurrable removal for their artifacts, and can go nuts. They lose the long game, easy. We can also just check and combo them out with proper hands. Therapy aids enormously in both plans.

nudon's advice of playing Therapy a bit late is spot-on. We're an almost purely constructive deck, so we need to build our own resources in the first turn or two. Of course, if they T2 Stoneforge something, do Therapy it (or Jitte) away. T1 Therapy is nearly always a grave mistake.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I said I was over simplifying and I'm guessing you understood what I meant. Yes, an aggro deck can play Therapy but only when it needs to name one card that trumps its strategy. That would be a card like Show and Tell to us. Blade doesn't have one of those. Even Thoughtseize, which is more justifiable since it will hit a good spell, is an undirected card compared to whatever you would take out for it.

I'm not always as articulate as I'd like to be, but Elves and Dredge are the two decks I have very good instincts about. And I just have that gut feeling that Therapy, or discard in general, is wrong vs Blade.

I'm surprised to see this discussed bc my assumption was that most people were seeing the same success I am against this particular archetype. I play Blade frequently with easily over 50% win percentage without Therapy so I know I'm not looking to change my sb strategy.

[Koby]

That's my surprise too igri. There seems to be misguided advice in this discussion from players who don't seem to me understand the archetype intimately well.

My advice is to test out the discard idea and report back. I doubt reactive discard is worth more in this matchup that more threats.

[nudon]

Jitte is one of those cards that trump our strategy. Therapy also hits supreme verdict, EE, perish (esper) on flashback. Abrupt decay does not. With a combo hand, therapy provides protection from FoW too. In this case, the deck is functioning as combo vs. control (oversimplifying of course). Thus, therapy functions in a way similar to how it is used in ANT/tinfins. Abrupt decay is a more reactive card in my opinion than cabal therapy since it might just sit in your hand. Abrupt decay solves the jitte problem well but I like therapy more since it has more applications. Lastly, the 2 crop rotations are for the karakas + bog sb.

Granted the below report is a bit dated but it illustrates the point. See sideboard section.
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/hoof-there-it-i/

[Absolutflipz]

Scavenging Ooze is not an early game card, but it does counter DRS which is why it's boarded in. It's there to deal the game state AFTER a sweeper because it's a one-stop 5/5 or bigger.

Cabal Therapy is pretty weak in a matchup where you don't have specific cards you need to knock out from your opponent. Death/EsperBlade decks have a variety of cards and most of them are not 4-ofs. I could see the case made for Thoughtseize being brought in, but not Cabal Therapy.

Abrupt Decay answers Jitte or SFM->Batterskull or Sword of Feast & Famine. It could also answer EPlague for the times they bring that in. It breaks up an early game-state that allows Elves to go on the aggro plan.

The matchup is not defined as Aggro vs Control. It's defined by Card Advantage. If you can get Visionary/Symbiote going then you're favored. If you can't, you will lose to superior card quality from Esper. Natural Order might be too weak in this matchup most of the time because of the discard/removal.


Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I agree on siding out NO in these matchups. In fact, I find myself boarding out NO a lot of the time against such blue decks and faster combo and bringing in more card advantage-type cards (Sylvan Library/Hivemaster) from the board and Jittes/Ooze.

[Koby]

From Riley's article:
"It’s important when using sideboarding guides that you view them as an aid and don’t follow them too strictly. Be willing to adjust based on how your opponent is sideboarding or if something is worth changing based on being on the play or draw."

In that guide Deathrite Shaman Esper lists did not exist. Notice against BUG he does bring in Abrupt Decays too.

You have to identify which part of the strategy is best to disrupt. Agaist DeathBlades, attacking the DRS and taxing them will give you the best results. Against older Esper lists, you need to prepare for Jitte and sweepers. Board accordingly.

[danyul]

Report up here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26327-Top-4-Mirkwood-6-30-13-72-players&p=734772#post734772).

IRT to Therapy vs Deathblade, I guess it just depends on how you approach the matchup. I'm always looking to combo. So I quite like having access to Therapy. If you want to grind it out, that's a viable strategy too and calls for a different tactic when sideboarding. But I don't like the idea of just accepting and planning around our board getting hit with Supreme Verdict. I'd rather be proactive about stopping that from happening in the first place. But different strokes for different folks.

[catmint]

That's my surprise too igri. There seems to be misguided advice in this discussion from players who don't seem to me understand the archetype intimately well.

My advice is to test out the discard idea and report back. I doubt reactive discard is worth more in this matchup that more threats.

I tested the matchup intensively with competent players to exactly find out if to either board decays or cabal therapy vs. blade prior to posting here. But since you seem to assume I don't understand the archetype very well :rolleyes: you have to hear it from someone who you find competent or try it out yourself.

Also I don't side out Natural Orders vs. deathblade. They are often enough a "win button" or "nearly win button" and it will resolve a fair amount of time if you play cabal therapy. Of course for it to work you need to have more bodies than they have removal. Again back to creating card advantage and dealing with sweepers.

[theross]

The matchup against Esper decks is defined by either a few key cards resolving a key spot (ie Verdict/Jitte for Esper or Glimpse/Natural Order for Elves) or an attrition war given that both players maintain parity on the trump axis. With the former plan, discard is actively good since the information will allow you to properly leverage your trumps while also removing their ability to interact or trade with their trump cards. However, in an attrition war, missing on Cabal Therapy is devastating and since Esper has a wide variety of spells which could be important, missing is more likely than I find acceptable. As such, I board Thoughtseize for the Esper matchups. I don't like Abrupt Decay, but if you have more cards to bring out then it's fine in small numbers. Decay has the problem of being reactive while Thoughtseize is proactive, which is in line with your role in the matchup. Since drawing dead cards is horrible in attrition wars, I board down to 1 Hoof and consequently to 2 Orders. Your threat density isn't as important once you have Seize to force the important cards through so maximizing your ability to topdeck in the midgame after trading resources is paramount.

[Zombie]

Esper gives you a ton of free information, though, which helps that initial Therapy land. Afterwards, game state and prior information help in making good educated guesses. Deathblade has less cards that severely threaten our combo plan and Bob gives us free info to Therapy stuff away.

[Zombie]

Also, one thing I'd be interested to hear is to hear experiences on Thorn/Thalia: Has the resistor being noncreature and colorless mattered in your games thus far? And enough to outdo the benefits of Thalia beatdown?

[MD.Ghost]

Also, one thing I'd be interested to hear is to hear experiences on Thorn/Thalia: Has the resistor being noncreature and colorless mattered in your games thus far? And enough to outdo the benefits of Thalia beatdown?

I always play 1 Thorn, but if you want more Tax-effects, i think i would chose the following configuration:


1 Thorn
2 Thorn
2 Thorn + 1 Thalia


Reason:
Thorn can be cast with any mana source (you will not always start with a fetch in hand, or want bayou for cabal therapy/discard)
Thorn isn´t a creature, so it sadly can´t smash your opponent, on the other hand it dodges the common boardwipes (Pyroclasm, Massacre, etc.) that Stormcombo or even SneakShow (Top8 GP Strassbourg) maybe throw against your dudes (because it also kills gaddock).

Thalia is nice, but only beats for 2 damage, which Gaddock also can achieve (and he is a zenit-able). Sure taxing Storm Players is always stronger compared to Gaddocks Ability, but i think thorn should be the primary taxing source (if you want such an effect against most combo matchups).

Remember that Thorn/Thalia is also a nice Splash-Damage against Dredge/Enchantress/Pox/Burn/UR Delver etc.

[Dice_Box]

My Experience with Thalia is though goblins. There I run her main deck and I have come to marvel at how much she is feared by combo players. I mean really they go out of there way to kill her and it can be a good draw away from other things you need alive. She slows them down and draws fire from the cards I want to keep alive.

In my elves she would not find a place. The deck is not the same. I tutor with the elves seeking answers to my problems that come right into play. If I have a card that is not tutorable, then I want it to dodge the common hate bears. For example if I was going to go for a creature to hate out combo, I am picking Ruric Thar. Even more scary, can be tutored and it has a much stronger effect.

[Absolutflipz]

My Experience with Thalia is though goblins. There I run her main deck and I have come to marvel at how much she is feared by combo players. I mean really they go out of there way to kill her and it can be a good draw away from other things you need alive. She slows them down and draws fire from the cards I want to keep alive.

In my elves she would not find a place. The deck is not the same. I tutor with the elves seeking answers to my problems that come right into play. If I have a card that is not tutorable, then I want it to dodge the common hate bears. For example if I was going to go for a creature to hate out combo, I am picking Ruric Thar. Even more scary, can be tutored and it has a much stronger effect.

How are you ever getting out a Ruric Thar vs any of the relevant combo-decks he would be "useful" against. NO is super slow against such decks and they have plenty of disruption/counters.

Also, if you're playing 10 fetches and 1 is a Savannah I don't see how Thalia isnt the the first thorn effect in your board. It's not enough to just be disruptive, you need to be disruptive and apply a clock.

[MD.Ghost]

How are you ever getting out a Ruric Thar vs any of the relevant combo-decks he would be "useful" against. NO is super slow against such decks and they have plenty of disruption/counters.

Also, if you're playing 10 fetches and 1 is a Savannah I don't see how Thalia isnt the the first thorn effect in your board. It's not enough to just be disruptive, you need to be disruptive and apply a clock.

See Page 2 - 10 Options to generate 4 Mana for Natural Order Turn 2 (the Turn Thalia/Teeg/Thorn can also land). Against every decent Combo Player you need more than 1 Disruption Piece, so work with Discard/Trap the first turns and than slam additional Hate like Thorn/Teeg/Thalia/more Discard or Ruric to close the game.

Most Elves run Regal Force or 2nd Craterhoof so Combo Players aren´t good enough prepared for Natural Order into Ruric, most of the time they will let you discard Glimpse or a real Hate Piece. Sure the common permanent Hate (Teeg/Thorn/Thalia) are less dependend to get a Natural Order or enough Mana, but this is the reason why everyone should keep Teeg (and Thorn/Thalia) as a Sideboardoption. Ruric is additional Hate and not an "new-bigger-slower"-Teeg Version.

10 Fetches? 2 Forests, 3 Duals, 2-4 Cradle (higher Number with new rules), so you will have 8 Fetches most of the time. If you start the Game with Bayou or Forest you can´t cast Thalia and i don´t want to mulligan away a Hand with a taxing Hatepiece, so i feel Thorn is the safest option.

[Koby]

I tested the matchup intensively with competent players to exactly find out if to either board decays or cabal therapy vs. blade prior to posting here. But since you seem to assume I don't understand the archetype very well :rolleyes: you have to hear it from someone who you find competent or try it out yourself.

Also I don't side out Natural Orders vs. deathblade. They are often enough a "win button" or "nearly win button" and it will resolve a fair amount of time if you play cabal therapy. Of course for it to work you need to have more bodies than they have removal. Again back to creating card advantage and dealing with sweepers.

That's exactly what I'm berating most of the Elves players of doing. Are you assuming that you'll never have to face a sweeper? Are you recklessly playing into it? Are you not thinking at the beginning of every turn: what if I lose my entire squad on my opponent's turn? How will I win with my opponent at 3 life against a sweeper? How will I react to a topdeck Jitte+equip?

On the one hand, most players decide to keep in NO and on the other hand acknowledge discard coming from Esper blade. On the one hand they keep NO, and on the other hand point to Perish being an issue...

As though Brainstorm is not a card in those lists and sweepers recognized as being fantastic against Elves.

Do I plan to get mired down with a grindfest? No. But I'm going to setup my deck to be able to do so when Glimpse fizzles by drawing 2 lands in a row. Cabal Therapy won't help in that regard.

EDIT: Since I seem to be the only advocate for Resistors as the anti-combo strategy, here's my sideboard again:

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Ameythst
1 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze

Thorns/Thalia mix should starts at 2 copies. Thalia is no better/worse than Thorns because there's no way to find either in this deck. Thalia is arguably weaker since some decks can remove her using spells/Karakas that would already be good against Elves to begin with. Thalia cannot be double-stacked unlike Thorns, so having less of her in comparison is warranted. Two copies of Teeg is good to have as both extra copies vs removal as well as the off chance that you draw it without a way to cast it (white source).

Yes, you do give up stopping a turn 0/1 win vs combo; but you increase the diversity of your sideboard cards against Burn/cantrip heavy decks.

[nudon]

Koby, I was actually considering 2 thorns in the sb. Because of the lack of synergy with thorn, do you typically board out NO against fair brainstorm decks? Also, what does your MD look like now with hoof as your win-con?

[SpeedOfDark]

Greetings Danyul!

This thread has picked up so much steam already that you might not notice my post, but I just wanted write a few words to thank you for your thorough and updated primer that you clearly put a lot of work into. It was a really nice read and very informative :)

I loled at the emphasis you put on symbiote + visionary. It is true that people often think of them as filler (especially visionary), but after playing the deck in a few tournaments it's the one of the first things that you notice: not playing 4 of each is just bad, the backup plan is way too good to pass up.

tbh, I haven't played in a tournament with this deck in a while (not post-craterhoof anyways), but the last lists I played was very similar to these, with major difference of having the emrakul finish and NO/prog instead NO/craterhoof. These lists and your reasoning look very solid, but the only number I'm a bit uncomfortable with is the birchlore rangers. I don't think they are necessarily 4-of or anything but 1-2 seems on the low end to me. I guess with the cradles and many backup plans, you might not need so many redundant cards for your main glimpse combo or something.

PS: I'm the OP of the old thread lol

[Dice_Box]

After two weeks of testing, also lending my deck so someone else to test as well to get his opinion, I am cutting beck. Really you would not think it, but the two Mana cost can make it hard to use early in the game, getting blue is not always easy and to use blue I was cutting the idea of a white splash. I think white has more to offer this deck than beck does so I am cutting it and moving to white.

Edit:


2nd MD Dryad Arbor is very good.
Ok what are the real pros and cons of running a second? I have not seen a lot of talk on this.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Ok what are the real pros and cons of running a second? I have not seen a lot of talk on this.

I'm going to leave out all the obvious ways we utilize Arbor, but just double the frequency of those. Beyond the actual functions of Arbor, it maintains GSZ's same range of targets (and sometimes, relevance) even after the first is Arbor is gone. Same goes with your fetches. It's innocuous looking as can be, but it's one of the best-fitted, multi-faceted tools of green-based deck, especially one with untap and bounce effects. It's not a game winner - it's a device to get to a win that you constantly abuse. From my personal experiences with the addition of the second Arbor, I can't tell you how often both get fetched out of my deck in the first game.

[chinEsE girl]

The second arbor is also really good when you side in the 4th natural order and progenitus. Makes it easier to EOT fetch for arbor then NO since you can do it twice in a game.

[Zombie]

Tried 2 Thorn, 2 Decay, 1 Sliver vs. Bob-blade (Has Souls, FoW, no DRS), wasn't too impressed. Felt like Thorn almost hurt me more than it hurt him. The Therapies felt better, but not being able to remove Bob does suck.

On another note, I'm pretty much lost vs. D&T. It may just be our D&T player always having Mindcensor and me drawing a ton of search, but it seems like the only ways to win are quick, quick combo or mass abuse of Symbiote/Visionary. DRS doesn't have any fuel to do damage, and our search engine gets disrupted severely. The broken plans work, and work very well, but little else does.

Current build:
3 Cradle, 2 Rotation
2 Hoof
2 Arbor
Ooze, Shaman

Board:
1 NO
1 Prog
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Ruric
1 Teeg
1 Sliver
2 Decay
1 O-Ring
1 Bog

[.Ix]

2 Arbors in the main? That seems like way too many "dead" cards for a deck like this. 2 hoof + 2 arbor gives us a 40% chance of opening with at least one of those cards, and no one likes drawing these guys.

[danyul]

Having Hoof in the opener is not the worst thing ever. I actually don't mind it at all, assuming the rest of the hand is fine. And as long as Arbor isn't the only land in your opener, playing it as your land drop is perfectly fine. I mean, none of these things are optimal. But you can still win despite them. And I'd argue that having access to the second copies of these cards will win you more games than it loses you.

[.Ix]

Having Hoof in the opener is not the worst thing ever. I actually don't mind it at all, assuming the rest of the hand is fine. And as long as Arbor isn't the only land in your opener, playing it as your land drop is perfectly fine. I mean, none of these things are optimal. But you can still win despite them. And I'd argue that having access to the second copies of these cards will win you more games than it loses you.

Yes, we can still win despite them, but there's no doubt that opening hands with at least one of those suck a lot more than those without. They are almost equivalent to mulligans. What do we gain from having 1 more Arbor in the main, though? I'm not sure it's so important game 1 that we are willing to increase our virtual mulligan percentage in all of our matches for it.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Yes, we can still win despite them, but there's no doubt that opening hands with at least one of those suck a lot more than those without. They are almost equivalent to mulligans. What do we gain from having 1 more Arbor in the main, though? I'm not sure it's so important game 1 that we are willing to increase our virtual mulligan percentage in all of our matches for it.

Then don't play with the second. Those of us that have played the deck a lot more than you want it, and will continue to use it.

[.Ix]

It's interesting that you know about me and the amount of play I've had with the deck, considering I'm halfway across the world from you. I don't think I'll get used to this kind of condescending bullshit around here. I'll drop it now, since it highly likely that you're going to leverage your join date in a discussion about deck optimization.

[danyul]

Greetings Danyul!

This thread has picked up so much steam already that you might not notice my post, but I just wanted write a few words to thank you for your thorough and updated primer that you clearly put a lot of work into. It was a really nice read and very informative :)

I loled at the emphasis you put on symbiote + visionary. It is true that people often think of them as filler (especially visionary), but after playing the deck in a few tournaments it's the one of the first things that you notice: not playing 4 of each is just bad, the backup plan is way too good to pass up.

tbh, I haven't played in a tournament with this deck in a while (not post-craterhoof anyways), but the last lists I played was very similar to these, with major difference of having the emrakul finish and NO/prog instead NO/craterhoof. These lists and your reasoning look very solid, but the only number I'm a bit uncomfortable with is the birchlore rangers. I don't think they are necessarily 4-of or anything but 1-2 seems on the low end to me. I guess with the cradles and many backup plans, you might not need so many redundant cards for your main glimpse combo or something.

PS: I'm the OP of the old thread lol

Thanks Mister Speed. I recognize your sn. I've read your original primer many times over. I do agree with your assessment of Birchlore Ranger. That card is key to our most explosive starts. However I am more of a pilot than a deck builder, so I am very conservative about making drastic changes to successful lists. That said, the old Mirror Entity lists did run it as a 4-of, I believe, and it was excellent there. The issue now is that the Craterhoof lists are a bit tight and we don't have many flex slots to play around with. I do want to look into playing more Birchlore.

It's good to see you're still around!


Yes, we can still win despite them, but there's no doubt that opening hands with at least one of those suck a lot more than those without. They are almost equivalent to mulligans. What do we gain from having 1 more Arbor in the main, though? I'm not sure it's so important game 1 that we are willing to increase our virtual mulligan percentage in all of our matches for it.


Then don't play with the second. Those of us that have played the deck a lot more than you want it, and will continue to use it.


It's interesting that you know about me and the amount of play I've had with the deck, considering I'm halfway across the world from you. I don't think I'll get used to this kind of condescending bullshit around here. I'll drop it now, since it highly likely that you're going to leverage your join date in a discussion about deck optimization.

Hey guys. Let's keep it civil. Also, I believe the only time I've seen join date referenced in this thread was when I was yelling at a guy who made a new account just to throw doo-doo around. There are plenty of people with older join dates whose posts I really don't care for. And there are other people who have joined just recently who always have something constructive to add. Good ideas are good ideas. Let's throw those around instead of meany-mean hurty words!

I offered my anecdotal evidence IRT Dryad Arbor #2 and some other people have chimed in. If their comments aren't enough to sway you, that's okay. There is no Master List that we all are required to play. That said, I wouldn't necessarily equate Arbor/Hoof opening hands with mulligans. That makes it too easy to be dismissive of a less-than-optimal hand when we don't need The Best Hand Ever to win games. We simply need a hand that is better than our opponent's. Now, I can't offer you charts or hard data, but in my last few tournaments with the deck in the 2xArbor config, I have been sad about drawing an Arbor in the opener *way* less than I have been happy that I had access to a second copy.

I like 2xArbor. But I will admit that it's influence is difficult to measure. I have described it before as "subtle but tangible" and I would continue to think of it that way. You may perhaps want to try the second copy in the SB and see if you like it there. And if you super duper like it, see how it works in the main. That's the only compromise I can think of. But again, feel free to run the deck however you like (as long as you aren't jamming 4xPriest effects). I'll admit that I only added the second copy after I saw Riley Curran doing well with it. I'm just a degenerate net-decker with no original ideas. But after running it, I don't see myself going back. The utility is just too good. YMMV.

[.Ix]

Hey guys. Let's keep it civil. Also, I believe the only time I've seen join date referenced in this thread was when I was yelling at a guy who made a new account just to throw doo-doo around. There are plenty of people with older join dates whose posts I really don't care for. And there are other people who have joined just recently who always have something constructive to add. Good ideas are good ideas. Let's throw those around instead of meany-mean hurty words!

I offered my anecdotal evidence IRT Dryad Arbor #2 and some other people have chimed in. If their comments aren't enough to sway you, that's okay. There is no Master List that we all are required to play. That said, I wouldn't necessarily equate Arbor/Hoof opening hands with mulligans. That makes it too easy to be dismissive of a less-than-optimal hand when we don't need The Best Hand Ever to win games. We simply need a hand that is better than our opponent's. Now, I can't offer you charts or hard data, but in my last few tournaments with the deck in the 2xArbor config, I have been sad about drawing an Arbor in the opener *way* less than I have been happy that I had access to a second copy.

I like 2xArbor. But I will admit that it's influence is difficult to measure. I have described it before as "subtle but tangible" and I would continue to think of it that way. You may perhaps want to try the second copy in the SB and see if you like it there. And if you super duper like it, see how it works in the main. That's the only compromise I can think of. But again, feel free to run the deck however you like (as long as you aren't jamming 4xPriest effects). I'll admit that I only added the second copy after I saw Riley Curran doing well with it. I'm just a degenerate net-decker with no original ideas. But after running it, I don't see myself going back. The utility is just too good. YMMV.

I was exaggerating re: join dates and mulligans, but we all know they're much better in the library than in hand. I am running the second in my sideboard, since I feel there are matchups they help a lot in. I'm just not sure having around 10% more clunky hands game 1 is worth the utility. I'll try it anyway, just to see what I'm missing.

[catmint]

I also run the 2nd one in the SB and I think it is a pretty bad idea to run it in the maindeck. The upside of having a 2nd one main for the use-cases/matchups needed does not outweigh the factor of having twice that often an "automull". For me 2nd dryad comes in the "progenitus" matchups where we want every fetch to be a dude to handle liliana and a plague better.

[Zombie]

Hm. Newplan for Bob-blade:
+3 Cabal
+2 Decay
No sliver.

[MD.Ghost]

Hm. Newplan for Bob-blade:
+3 Cabal
+2 Decay
No sliver.

Solid enough with Viridian Shaman Maindeck. (i play the uncommon Maindeck Q.Pridemage/Sliver and Viridian Side)

You can answer Stoneforge Equipment per Spell or Permanent Hate and if you are lucky enough, catch some Sweeper. I agree with Koby, that Cabal Therapy isn´t the best plan, since Brainstorm or Topdecking Equipment is backbreaking. Decay away a Clique is also nice, because it removes an unblockable Beater and Jitte Carrier.

@2nd Arbor, i think, you only need one Game 2 and 3. More Arbor Copies works well with NO-Progenitus or even if you play Pendelhaven (works nice against Control/Counterbalance etc.). But you can also play without NO-Progenitus, or play the Big-Hydra-Win without 2nd Arbor (include more/safer Ways to beat Plague like: Sliver over Pridemage, 3rd Decay, Elvish Archdruid, Wilt-Leaf Liege, Thrun,the last Troll etc.)

[Zombie]

I've found Therapy much better suited for my playstyle, but I want to kill their Bobs. Being able to Decay a Clique or Jitte obviously won't hurt either (and the latter is more important for Bob-blade than Deathblade or Esperblade because DRS-less Bob build has more CA, board presence but still has fliers and more of a clock).

I think people spend too much time trying to get so some "perfect" board. We're not magic-bots and play games out differently. Especially over a long tournament / casual gaming/testing day our brains get tired and we start taking the natural response much more often. It's worthwhile to make that instinctive style be as good as it can be. Still, if it doesn't improve your results, don't do it. I noticed I wanted Decay but was very disappointed with Thorn. 2 Therapies is also probably too little, so I came up with that plan.

[catmint]

Brainstorm is often used as an argument against discard and it is of course their best answer making our discard weaker. However, if they constantly “daze themselves” by keeping U open to answer our potential discard then we already have an advantage. What I want to say is that they won’t always have the possibility to keep U up “profitably” (i.e. using it for a swords EOT). Especially if builds are cutting spell pierce and become more of “tap-out” decks. In my experience there are enough good opportunities to cast discard but you have to pick your spots. Cabal therapy is known to be one of the most skill intensive cards for a reason.

As I said concerning jitte, I would not rely on discard and bounce. Tutorable answers are a must. 1-2 decays in addition might be a good thing vs. the new build if you can kill confidant/clique as well in case holding it for jitte is not necessary, however I am worried about siding out too much of the engine in such an attrition based matchup.

[Zombie]

The new plan isn't any less extensive than the old one, it cuts a tad into Therapy so you can kill Bobs, that's it. Same amount of cards out as Therapy+Sliver plan.

[danyul]

There's definitely a lot to be said about making the deck "yours". You can follow any list you like but you're the one who has to pilot it. So tweak accordingly.

It's just weird when sometimes people come back and say X or Y isn't working out for them when it's unclear whether they simply played the card/board state incorrectly, came across some wacky interaction that doesn't happen often enough to matter, or if X/Y really isn't that optimal. There is so much variance in this game, and in this particular deck, that gives us all plenty of room to build for taste, meta, playstyle, and so on.

Just as long as you guys aren't playing Elvish Champions or anything crazy.

edit - I took too long to post. You guys are talking about other stuff now!

[Zombie]

Was dragged to a small local. 1-3
RUG 1-2
TES 2-1
UR Delver 1-2
Miracles 1-2, drop

The TES match was hilarious - G1 we set up a few turns, he discards my GSZ. Topdecked another one => tap Cradle, Rotate(Cradle), GSZ(Hoof). Better lucky than good. G2 I had a Thorn but died on his T2. G3 I had an absurd grip of DRS, double Thorn. Didn't matter as poor sod went to 3 off AdN without seeing a single tutor. Diminishing Returns (Got Thorn and a Hoof), bunch of storm, no dice, new Returns, nothing. GSZ@0, NO(Hoof) for exact 16. Could've done more but lazy.

Miracles G1 was Nettle beating him to death while his deck shat on him like Miracles occasionally does. Jace lands but is helpless in the face of a few dudes that swing for lethal. G2 is Top, Canonist, Meddling Mage(Decay). G3 I slowroll a winning NO facing CB-Top. top, fetch, top, Enlightened Tutor for a goddamn Moat. I draw nothing but 1-drops and a couple irrelevant things for the rest of the game, while he eventually finds an Enlightened Tutor for Helm.

The annoying thing though is that I made constant small misplays vs. Delver decks that lost me games I had a shot in otherwise. I didn't board in discard but will have to in the future, I think. And just play these matches a lot more. Just casual play nights without wider matchup experience is starting to show.

2nd Arbor main was great.

[Lemnear]

How much value off the Quirion Rangers remain if the protection of duals and their Color flexibility becomes less relevant with an increased count of Birchlores considering the potential speed gain they might offer vs. the untap of Quirions? Enough to cut them to 3?

[catmint]

I would not cut quirion and he is also not sided out. He plays a very important role to get explosive turns.

[nudon]

Quick summary of MTG Deals Open legacy event today here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26351-Quick-Summary-of-MTG-Deals-Legacy-Open-Experience-7-6-2013). I tried the 2nd dryad arbor in the sideboard instead of main deck at the last minute (swapped out crop rotation package). I definitely think it's better in the main deck.

[MD.Ghost]

@Quirion Ranger: I think 4 is the right number for the first game (as it is for Heritage), Quirion Ranger allows fast Combo Wins, which should be the goal for Game 1 if we face less disruption. I always board out 2 Heritage 1 Quirion, but still have enough speed with 3 Quirion, 2 Heritage and 2 Bircholore Dudes Game 2 and 3.

@Nudon: Grats! Nice Summary.

----------

I also played yesterday the local store tournament. Ended 7th (25 Players).

Matchups

2:0 vs GBw Nic Fit, always faster than his deed activations (turn 3 kills)
0:2 vs UB Tezzeret (G1 he survives at 1, game 2 i got hit by early perish, grafdigger cage and wurmcoil engine, stall against wurm&tezz but he has FoW for my last bullet - craterhoof)
2:0 vs RUG (G1 after he drained his hand with counters and removal, i play NO into Ruric and win, G2 nearly the same, but with progenitus)
2:0 vs bUrg (G1 and G2 see RUG matches, clear hands and than the strong overwhelm the weak ;)
0:2 vs lands.dec (G1 he topdecks karakas vs Ruric and than grind it out with punishing fire, tabernacle etc, G2 he has god hand with turn 1 active Port..can´t recover from following loam&waste&fire...)

Some notes:
Results:UB Tezz guy placed first, lands.dec placed third after our battle

@Ruric, against both Tempo.decs he was very good, especially G1 (they can always stifle Craterhoof/Regal Force, if they have cards/mana). Against lands, my opponent was stuck at 7 Life and has Punishing Fire and Tabernacle online.., so Ruric was ok, but he topdecked karakas as his only hope to win. First moment, that i lost because i only play 1 Craterhoof (my was stucked in hand...). But i still think, that Ruric is a good maindeck target.

@Legend Rule: Against my both annoying matchups, i get moments with 2nd cradle in hand and can´t use it to steel the game. Especially against lands, i faced Tabernacle vs Cradle, with the rule update, you can still play the next Cradle and win with Glimpse/NO or even a big Zenit. (My current build has 3 Cradles and 1 Crop Rotation)

@Viridian Shaman: Included him again as a sideboard choice, but still lost against two chalice decks... both games went wrong and i can´t use the wirewood+shaman shenanigans. Still think, that Pridemage/Sliver is good enough for maindeck hate

@Scavenging Ooze, tested one additional copy in my sideboard (play one main), but i think even with one Crop Rotation, Bojuka Bog deserves the slot. Deathrites and Ooze are okay, but sometimes you wan´t an uncounterable one shot, that clears the yard without mana or summoning sickness issues.

Besides the result, the deck works very well. Conquered six Top8s at local store this year (with seven participations), so i'am pretty happy with this deck.

[Zombie]

What kinds of maindecks are you guys running to have room for 4 Quirion and even 2 Birchlore?

[MD.Ghost]

What kinds of maindecks are you guys running to have room for 4 Quirion and even 2 Birchlore?

//Lands 16
2 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Taiga

//Creatures 32
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

//Spells 12
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Crop Rotation

For me, 16 lands feels right. If you play with 4 cradle (than i would go -1 Crop Rotation) and up to 17 lands.

In my opinion you have 2 flex slots for creatures, i play 1 Pridemage/Sliver and 1 Ooze. Many other players include Viridian shaman, 2nd Arbor, Ooze, or even Priest/Archdruid, or 2nd Crop Rotation, i think these slots make enough room for personal preferences or meta game decisions. You Can't Have it All ;)

I have cut the 2nd Llanowar for the 2nd Bircholore the day i included the 4th colour (with Ruric and Taiga). With 2 Bircholore Rangers you can easily side out 2 Heritage Druids without a major speed lose. In heavy disrupted situations, bircholore is also easier to set up, or even a morph-option against plague.

[igri_is_a_bk]

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

I have two Ooze in the sb and I like him there. When I had him mb, I did not find him necessary very often. There are very few mb sweepers in this format and the most common one (Terminus) doesn't feed him so he was switched out.

[Koby]

7 fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Natural Order
1 Crop Rotation

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force
1 Elvish Archdruid

[nudon]

@MD.Ghost: Thanks! I tried to keep it as brief as possible and figured I would just respond if anyone had questions.

@Zombie: The main deck I ran yesterday at MTG Deals is same as Koby with following differences:
-1 forest, +1 fetch
-1 crop rotation, +1 NO
-1 elvish archdruid, +1 fyndhorn elves

Notes: Viridian shaman was pretty clutch and I never wish I had ooze game 1. I'll probably remove 1 fyndhorn for the second arbor going forward.

[Absolutflipz]

The above lists that have 7 fetchlands and 4 Deathrite Shaman do not compute. While Deathrite is an amazing card, and provides utility in Graveyard disruption and a back-up kill in longer games, the deck desires moreso to consistently generate mana (and making multiple mana per turn with things like Ranger/Symbiote). Personal experience has taught me that I want 10 fetches to reliably run 4 Deathrite Shaman. Even then I feel I'd rather just play 3 Deathrite and +1 of Llanowar/Fyndhorn as a reliable mana source.

Also, I don't understand why more people don't play Beck//Call. If the color requirement has you hung up, I can see that, as players wanting to play White for Thalia/Teeg are in a bind as Green and Black are musts, and playing the correct number of duals/mana producers for GBuw may be too rough.

Otherwise, tho, arguments about the extra mana I feel are off. Having 6 Glimpses (I think 2 is the right number) lets you liberally fire-off an early value Glimpse of Nature (or get an early Glimpse countered; i.e. resiliency). In my experience the extra mana is rarely a stop-gap to comboing off as you have 4 Cradles and while Beck is going to be much harder to use when going off T2 or 3, it acts in the same manner as a glimpse for T4+ and even on T3 when 1/3 lands is a Cradle. Add in that it also interacts favorably with GSZ and Dryad arbor as opposed to Glimpse.

It also also the cutting of Regal Force as he is just unecessary. I've also gone down to 2 NO in the main as my only target is 1 Hoof, putting the spell count to 4x Glimpse, 4x GSZ, 2x Beck//Call, 2x NO. I also run a 1x Ezuri as a cheap threat and servicable tutor via NO/GSZ.

I say more fetches for Deathrite and try out Beck in a tropical island-splashed build.

[Koby]

More fetches makes sense, that was an oversight. I would still run between 4-5 fetchable lands, putting it at either 1 or 2 basic Forest.

[MD.Ghost]

I say more fetches for Deathrite and try out Beck in a tropical island-splashed build.

@Fetchlands:
I play 7 fetches and rarely need more for deathrite. The first deathrite typically dies to removal, because he is so good. If your opponent starts first and play deathrite on his own, both deathrites stall each other (until you find an untap creature or your opponent some removal), so number of fetches doesn´t matter so much. Sure sometimes 1st Turn Deathrite does nothing, because you have a dual/forest and your opponent didn´t fetch or play enough basics (d&t, goblins, omnitell etc.). On the one hand with more fetches your landcount goes up, on the other hand you can only play a few duals/forest cards and are much more vulnerable to wasteland/stifle (and RUG is still a famous Deck to Beat).

In my 16th lands build (without arbor), i can cut taiga (my 4th dual) for the 8th fetch, or go down to 1 basic forest, but i think 3 duals and 1-2 forest are the minimum "real" lands for this deck. If i want to play more lands i would add the 4th cradle instead of another fetchland.

@Beck:
I never need another Glimpse effect (most Wins are with Natural Order). Beck is harder to setup and has the same Problem as Glimpse - you need one or two creatures for profit, if your opponent grinds you out, Beck alone doesn´t help (neither Glimpse does). Sure, if you love Glimpsechains and play the deck more combo oriented than add more Glimpse effects like Beck feels right. For me, i grind it out and need some Weapons to fight back (like Ooze).

[Lemnear]

I have no clue why people think running more inferior Glimpses, which represent in fact a Multi-card combo (Nettle/Heritage) or act as a green Ancestral Recall, is preferable over the single card combo which Natural Order is.

It's the fucking nature of the deck to have green creatures which also generate mana. I'm perfectly fine stomping RUG and BUG for 3 turns with a 5/5 which they can't Race, Bolt, Decay, Deed away or hit with Liliana thanks to the green lil men around.

I'm sure we should fit the 4th NO in the 60 before ever tinker with Beck/Call and the 4th color

[trevaftw]

What about aiming for a purposefully slower deck to fight combo post board?

Creatures - 31
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Dryad Arbor

Sorceries - 11
4 Beck // Call
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Lands - 18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle


Sideboard - 15
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Rest in Peace

[Lemnear]

-snip nonsense-

Why on god's green earth do you dismiss Glimpse and Therapy? To "support" FoW with 16 blue cards? Do you really think that SLOWING down and 4 passive Protection pieces will save you from combo? How do you plan to Board 12+ cards? What makes Brainstorm and Probe better in your Sideboard than Real Counters like flusterstorm/spell pierce/Mindbreak Trap for the matchups in question?

[trevaftw]

Why on god's green earth do you dismiss Glimpse and Therapy? To "support" FoW with 16 blue cards? Do you really think that SLOWING down and 4 passive Protection pieces will save you from combo? How do you plan to Board 12+ cards?

4 Wirewood
4 Symbiote
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Natural Order

I'm not saying it's great or dismissing Cabal Therapy, but it's something to think about.

[Dice_Box]

I would use discard post board against combo before I go anywhere near rebuilding my deck just for FOW. Thorn is also a good choice. The deck is green, nothing about it says Force to me.

[Absolutflipz]

I have no clue why people think running more inferior Glimpses, which represent in fact a Multi-card combo (Nettle/Heritage) or act as a green Ancestral Recall, is preferable over the single card combo which Natural Order is.

It's the fucking nature of the deck to have green creatures which also generate mana. I'm perfectly fine stomping RUG and BUG for 3 turns with a 5/5 which they can't Race, Bolt, Decay, Deed away or hit with Liliana thanks to the green lil men around.

I'm sure we should fit the 4th NO in the 60 before ever tinker with Beck/Call and the 4th color

Webpage ate my long response, so...in short:

Natural Order is a multi-card combo in the same way you define Glimpse/Beck as one. You literally need a green creature to cast it, and, for it to be an effective NO, you need sufficient, untapped, and non-summoning sick creatures. I also don't see how RUG and BUG can't beat a 5/5 (Goyf or Goyf + X just off the top).

There are other differences in purpose/effect between NO and Glimpse/Beck. NO is 2-3 mana more and is a built-in 2 for 1 against countermagic.

There could be something said for a 4x NO build (i.e. definitely 4x Quirion Ranger, a second Dryad, additional Birchlore)

7 Fetches and 4 Deathrites is incorrect.

[nevets]

hi guys! just started splashing black on my elves deck and i've a few questions

when do you board in progenitus?

what do you use against burn/rug delvers?

[Kayradis]

Just watched Jackie Lee play the beloved little green men at the SCG last sunday (got bored at home and watched the replay).

She should never play that deck again.
How she was 3-1 at round 5 makes me believe she had mad top decks, or bad opponent. Game 1, even if she won, she misplay probably 10 times.

I think it's sad that people tend to think that combo elves is an easy deck to play.


EDIT : Watched game 2. Had to stop. She should stick to standard.

[Lemnear]

Webpage ate my long response, so...in short:

Natural Order is a multi-card combo in the same way you define Glimpse/Beck as one. You literally need a green creature to cast it, and, for it to be an effective NO, you need sufficient, untapped, and non-summoning sick creatures. I also don't see how RUG and BUG can't beat a 5/5 (Goyf or Goyf + X just off the top).

There are other differences in purpose/effect between NO and Glimpse/Beck. NO is 2-3 mana more and is a built-in 2 for 1 against countermagic.

There could be something said for a 4x NO build (i.e. definitely 4x Quirion Ranger, a second Dryad, additional Birchlore)

7 Fetches and 4 Deathrites is incorrect.

Glimpse "needs" 2 more Creatures in hand and a certain combination of Elves to Chain into an engine. In Case of Beck/call were talking about a cost of at least GGGU compared to NO's 2GG which is a much better topdeck in addition for a less ugly cost. Holding back 2+ creatures for a possible topdeck-Glimpse/Beck is counterintuitive and no near the same Quality of requirement NO has (2-for-1 yourself isn't always that bad if the payout is much greater, See FoW). The resolution of NO is also much more devastating making it a spell to Counter or die in 1-2 swings. RUG and BUG have to 2-for-1 themselves to get rid of Craterhoof and are unlikely to handle him the turn he Swings for the First time anyways which is nothing to sneeze at

[nudon]

I agree with Lemnear that having the 4th NO in the main deck should be better than straining our mana base just for beck. Also, the idea of swapping out glimpse for beck is just plain ludicrous. That aside, I wanted to ask people how they felt about boarding in NO#4 and progenitus against deathblade. Playing against deathblade twice at the MTG Deals Open, I boarded in 2 abrupt decay, 1 scavenging ooze, 1 harmonic sliver, and 1 dryad arbor. However, I later realized that deathblade doesn't run counters aside from FoW. Instead of bringing in decay, what do you guys think about bringing in NO#4 and progenitus instead? If they counter our NO, it'll still be a 2 for 2 trade. If they don't, we probably win the game since supreme verdict can only come down on their turn 4 without the help of DRS. Also depending on the board state, it can bypass jitte.

[Koby]

Webpage ate my long response, so...in short:

Natural Order is a multi-card combo in the same way you define Glimpse/Beck as one. You literally need a green creature to cast it, and, for it to be an effective NO, you need sufficient, untapped, and non-summoning sick creatures. I also don't see how RUG and BUG can't beat a 5/5 (Goyf or Goyf + X just off the top).

There are other differences in purpose/effect between NO and Glimpse/Beck. NO is 2-3 mana more and is a built-in 2 for 1 against countermagic.

There could be something said for a 4x NO build (i.e. definitely 4x Quirion Ranger, a second Dryad, additional Birchlore)

7 Fetches and 4 Deathrites is incorrect.

You know... My best finish with an Elf deck features 8 duals 4 wasteland and 4 forest; so I'm not opposed to running a hyper explosive land base for Elves. I think I ran it once with 10 lands no cradles too; but that was long ago before I owned them. Point being: no sense in playing the mana base safe; go big.

[Dice_Box]

I feel Progenitus against Blade is a solid choice. Add on Symbiote to untap it and you have a combo made in heaven. Against U/R Delver it works a treat too, that is if you can get past the counters. They have no answers to the card and they will try and burn your other cards. I think that if you're wondering when to board him in, anything with Directed damage but not a lot of counters is a good call. Punishing, Blade thanks to Jitte, Delver but not burn. Burn has a very fast clock. Against burn the better choice is to try and Hoof it out while gaining life.

Edit: How many lands where you running in your wasteland build?

[nudon]

Progenitus has protection from everything. You can't untap it.

[Dice_Box]

Progenitus has protection from everything. You can't untap it.
Oh yea.... Oops.

[MD.Ghost]

hi guys! just started splashing black on my elves deck and i've a few questions

when do you board in progenitus?

what do you use against burn/rug delvers?

@Progenitus against most matchups, if they have engineered plague and massiv spot removal. NO+Proenitus is against heavy disruption plans, you only need one creature (or fetchland) and 4 mana to get it.

@Burn: +1 Thorn, +1 Natural Order (1 Ooze + 1 Ruric mainboard ), Thorn is really good against Burn. I feel Progenitus is to slow, because they also can win turn 3-4 (and besides Thorn/Thalia we can´t disrupt Burn very well) You can also use Decay against Lavamancer.

@RUG: +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus (1 Ooze + 1 Ruric mainboard ). I think against RUG Progenitus and Ruric is the monster-duo to go. Craterhoof (or even Regal Force) aren´t scary enough if they have Stifle (or even Submerge with only a small Craterhoof Setup).

[HammafistRoob]

I'm sure most of you know this, but it's worth mentioning that Wirewood Hivemaster's trigger triggers Beck // Call.

[Dice_Box]

Yea but that's somewhat of a "Win more" combo me thinks. I mean you are not going to run 4 Hive, so you need to either draw one or draw a GSZ. Then you need to not need another combo piece with green and you need to have Blue for Beck. Not sure about anyone else but to me that's a long shot. I am sure that there are better tricks to aim for.

[Lemnear]

I'm sure most of you know this, but it's worth mentioning that Wirewood Hivemaster's trigger triggers Beck // Call.

This interaction was discussed then Beck got spoilered but the combination of 2 mediocre cards does not make the cut here considering that both are 2cc cards and the Hivemaster does nothing too fancy without Beck and a Million mana

[Zombie]

Something about the 4 Heritage/Nettle, 4 Quirion, 2 Birchlore configuration keeps bugging me. It just feels wrong. I think I'll test 4 Heritage, 4 Nettle, 3 Quirion, 3 Birchlore later this week. Perhaps even 3 Heritage, Quirion, 4 Birchlore and see how it affects starts. Quirion is occasionally awesome but in general just feels too clunky to operate without a Heritage Druid. As far as I'm concerned it's more of a Deathrite booster than anything.

[Lemnear]

Something about the 4 Heritage/Nettle, 4 Quirion, 2 Birchlore configuration keeps bugging me. It just feels wrong. I think I'll test 4 Heritage, 4 Nettle, 3 Quirion, 3 Birchlore later this week. Perhaps even 3 Heritage, Quirion, 4 Birchlore and see how it affects starts. Quirion is occasionally awesome but in general just feels too clunky to operate without a Heritage Druid. As far as I'm concerned it's more of a Deathrite booster than anything.

... and we might agree that Symbiote is the better DRS-machine-Gun-booster.

I hate Ranger outside of casual Priest/Archdruid lists and test without them for the Moment but a Full Set of Birchlores, 4 Cradles and the 4th NO instead, with pretty solid results because Nettle + Birchlore gives more color flex (ignore Wasteland instead of bouncing the forest with quirion) and works excellent for early Glimpses.

[Zombie]

... and we might agree that Symbiote is the better DRS-machine-Gun-booster.

I hate Ranger outside of casual Priest/Archdruid lists and test without them for the Moment but a Full Set of Birchlores, 4 Cradles and the 4th NO instead, with pretty solid results because Nettle + Birchlore gives more color flex (ignore Wasteland instead of bouncing the forest with quirion) and works excellent for early Glimpses.

That does seem good. Makes maindeck Ruric a hell of a lot more palatable, too - dude is pretty awesome and 6cc is easily hardcastable but the red mana has been a bitch thus far. With 4 DRS, 4 Birchlore it shouldn't be.

The one concern with cutting Quirions is that occasionally you really, really need to grind games out with fogs and saddling Symbiotes alone with that duty is pretty meh. I've had issues with drawing too many lands, tho, so a Sylvan Safekeeper slotted somewhere in there might well be the correct play. Makes all manner of hatebears even more of a bitch to deal with, too.

Does this seem sane?

//Creatures: 29-31 depending on flex
4 Nettle
4 Heritage
4 Birchlore

4 Emissary
4 Symbiote

4 DRS
1 Llanowar

1 Hoof
1 Ruric
1 Shaman

//Flex package options: 3 slots
2 Safekeeper, 1 Teeg
1 Safekeeper, 1 Llanowar, 1 Archdruid
1 Safekeeper, 1 Llanowar, 1 Teeg
1 Safekeeper, 1 Teeg, 1 Rotation
1 Safekeeper, 2 Rotation

//Spells: 12-14 depending on flex
4 Glimpse
4 NO
4 GSZ

//Land: 17
2 Arbor
3 Cradle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
7 fetches

[MD.Ghost]

I don´t think that we should cut all Quirion Rangers for more Bircholore Rangers. Both are good in this deck. Even if you adjust the numbers, i wouldn´t cut none of the two Ranger Cards completely. As i said i use 4 Quirion and 2 Bircholore. Six slots to adjust as you like.

Quirion Ranger should be in the deck, even if you only play one. Combatbounce with Arbor (remember Jitte), Manapush with few ressources, untap Nettle in Grindmatches, untap Creatures for Craterhoof Attack, untap Deathrite (return and play Bayou), Wasteland protection for Duals.

Bircholore Ranger works well with Glimpse and better under heavy disruption compared to heritage. It also delivers any mana colour and can be a morph beater (or NO Target under Plague).

There are pros and cons either way, but kick all Quirions feels totally wrong

[Kayradis]

@Zombie :

I kinda like that list. I've been thinking more and more about the inclusion of Ruric in the build since a T3 Ruric means the end and/or a fair amount of damage before they get rid of it. Should help the deck stabilize and attain the critical mass of card required to combo off.

Sure, if you got the combo T2(Best case scenario) go for it and see if they have any interactions with you. If not, Ruric will be the key in stabilizing for a T3 or T4 win.

Im toying with an all spell combo list ATM, but I might put that list together and give it a try.

[Zombie]

Preliminary sideboard for Quirion-less build:

Board:
1 Prog
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Sliver
3 Decay
1 K-Grip
2 Ooze
1 ???

Perhaps, with a Safekeeper, Teeg, Rotation flex package in the main:

Board:
1 Prog
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Sliver
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Bog
1 Rotation

[Kayradis]

To be honest, I'd just cut teeg all together from the flex package and put him SB.

I'd play as a SB :

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethys
1 Sliver
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Bog


Since NO is now a 4 of main deck, and I see Ruric as an Alt. Win-Con via beatdown plan Gaddock is a tiny bit counter productive.
In the current Meta, I'd rather make my opponent deal themselves 6/12 damages and open the door to a lethal attack next turn than stop them from FoW or play CMC 4+ spells.


EDIT : Based on your list, this is what I would run

//Creatures: 30
4 Nettle
4 Heritage
4 Birchlore

4 Emissary
4 Symbiote

4 DRS
1 Llanowar

1 Hoof
1 Ruric
1 Shaman
1 Safekeeper
1 Regal Force


//Spells: 13
4 Glimpse
4 NO
4 GSZ
1 Rotation


//Land: 17
2 Arbor
3 Cradle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
7 fetches

//SB : 15
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethys
1 Sliver
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Bog

[Zombie]

Teeg is there for combo (there's a lot here), not so much the fair matchups.

[Kayradis]

Teeg is there for combo (there's a lot here), not so much the fair matchups.


Still, against combo, unless they can get rid of it on their first spell (and I doubt they pack hate MD) Ruric is GG since they can't get rid of it. Combo needs a nominal amount of spells (I'd say an average between 4 to 12+) to reach the desired effect.
Even against RiP/Helm combo, we are talking 12 damages + 2 fetches. Put them in range for lethal from Ruric.

Still, the list needs a lot of testing and fine tuning, but I do believe we are heading in the right direction

[Zombie]

Sadly gsz for little doesn't hit Ruric and is a common scenario g1 t2

[Kayradis]

I still dont understand why you would GSZ for 2 on T2 and cut yourself from NO on T3 for Hoof and lethal...

[MD.Ghost]

As an early Ruric supporter, i would say, don´t cut all Quirions. If you max out the Natural Order plan, quirion can be a key card, because you only need 1 Quirion, 1 Arbor and 1 Forest/Dual to cast Natural Order.

Against Storm G1, Zenit for Teeg Turn 2 is good enough, if you wait until turn 3 you can be dead. If you are lucky enough, Turn 2 Natural Order into Ruric is a much stronger play.

[Kayradis]

Against Storm G1, Zenit for Teeg Turn 2 is good enough, if you wait until turn 3 you can be dead. If you are lucky enough, Turn 2 Natural Order into Ruric is a much stronger play.

You have to be pretty lucky, but still more than attainable.

T1 = Land, GSZ = 0, fetch Dryad Arbor, Go.
T2 = Tap forest, Birchlore, Tap Dryad, Nettle Sentinel, Play Cradle, Tap Sentinel+Birchlore for G, Tap Cradle for GGG, NO sac Dryad Arbor, Ruric Tar, Sip on your gin & tonic, Go.

[Zombie]

@Kayradis
Why the Regal in your list?

[Kayradis]

@Kayradis
Why the Regal in your list?

In older list, I was using it as an alternate draw engine if I was stalling.
Its a Glimpe + 4 to 5 spells in 1 card with a good body to swing with, can refuel your combo late game if it gets grindy (happenned to me at GP Quebec City Legacy side event) and optimally, can turn the tide of a game around all together game 2 or 3. I can't visualise a Combo Elves list without Regal Force.

I'm all ears (eyes?) if you can pinpoint me why I shouldn't run it.

[Zombie]

Just curious as many people (myself included) have been moving away from regal into 2 Hoof or Hoof-Ruric as NO targets. Though I guess even a raw Regal will be much better soon with the new Legend rule.

[Kayradis]

Still, I'm trying to understand why you would cut the Regal Force over a second Hoof.
I don't think I've ever NO for a Regal Force, since hard casting it will be most of the time more valuable (draw into crop or other utility pieces).
Like I said before, I see Regal Force as a Reset button for the deck in grindy matches.

In addition, with the new legendary rules, lets say after Regal Force resolves, you draw into...let's say 5 to 8 cards.
Let's say, Cradle, Sentinel, Glimpse, Fetch, 2 x 1-drop-elf-dork and a GSZ for instance. Those are pretty normal draw in my opinion based on the deck list.

At this point, the whole tide of the game just changed and Regal Force got renamed 4GGG You win.

[MD.Ghost]

Still, I'm trying to understand why you would cut the Regal Force over a second Hoof.
I don't think I've ever NO for a Regal Force, since hard casting it will be most of the time more valuable (draw into crop or other utility pieces).
Like I said before, I see Regal Force as a Reset button for the deck in grindy matches.

In addition, with the new legendary rules, lets say after Regal Force resolves, you draw into...let's say 5 to 8 cards.
Let's say, Cradle, Sentinel, Glimpse, Fetch, 2 x 1-drop-elf-dork and a GSZ for instance. Those are pretty normal draw in my opinion based on the deck list.

At this point, the whole tide of the game just changed and Regal Force got renamed 4GGG You win.

Hardcast Regal Force with drawing 5-8 cards means you can also play 1st/2nd Hoof for one more mana (or even better for only 2GG=NO) and also get the win. Why you will draw a bunch of cards and play a longer combo turn than necessary?

In most cases a resolved Craterhoof (or even Ruric against some decks) also can be renamed to "You win the Game". This is the reason why Regal Force has fallen out of favour for some players. It is still ok, but no more a "must have" for successful builds.

[Kayradis]

Hardcast Regal Force with drawing 5-8 cards means you can also play 1st/2nd Hoof for one more mana (or even better for only 2GG=NO) and also get the win. Why you will draw a bunch of cards and play a longer combo turn than necessary?

In most cases a resolved Craterhoof (or even Ruric against some decks) also can be renamed to "You win the Game". This is the reason why Regal Force has fallen out of favour for some players. It is still ok, but no more a "must have" for successful builds.

I do agree with you on some points, but you missed the point I was making in regards to the grindy late games. Regal Force is a reset button for those situations.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I do agree with you on some points, but you missed the point I was making in regards to the grindy late games. Regal Force is a reset button for those situations.

Regal Force is good in the same instances as Hoof, which provides the dilemma that you never really need RF. Even if you have no other creatures in play, put Hoof down and swing for 6 that turn. I've found the aggressive line is usually better than a slower clock. And if you have a huge summoning sick army, then just get lethal damage from each of the [one, two, three] creature(s) that can swing and end it that turn. Elves snowball to the point that actually happens.

Here's another benefit I've found from two Hoofs. You don't have to setup your first NO anymore. You can be aggressive with it and punch people in the mouth for a healthy, non-lethal chunk and put them on the back foot the remainder of the game. And you still have that reserve Hoof in your deck in case you need another Overrun turn. If you don't, you are now in chip-away mode and the strategy typically gets there. This is a new line in addition to all the options your deck has now. Think about it.

I dropped RF after the SCG open where I literally never needed him.

[Kayradis]

Okay. I see where you're heading now. Would that be a general consensus that the second Hoof > RF ?

Just trying to get the overall feeling.

[Zombie]

It's the kind of thing that the second Arbor is. You don't think it'd be that big at first, but when you try it you just feel secure in a way you didn't before.

[Kayradis]

I do see your line of thought.

I still have to play with it myself in order to be convinced!

[Lemnear]

I do agree with you on some points, but you missed the point I was making in regards to the grindy late games. Regal Force is a reset button for those situations.

I was a true believer in Regal quite a while until I draw the lonely Hoof too often unable to play it but still have NO in hand, facing FoW on naturally drawn Hoof followed up by Terminus or seeing Hoof stifled. All that is dodgable with a Second Hoof.

You don't want grindy games. You don't want to draw 5 cards if you just could kill your opponent instead. My testing left no doubts that Regal Force is not required.

On the other Hand, the same tests showed that Hoof pretty much tops Rurics damage Potential. I cannot Count the times Ruric was double Bolted, Plowed or Submerged in testing and I had to Ask myself if i've ever saw a Hoof (+x) Swing for 12 damage or less lately...

[nudon]

I believe the 2nd craterhoof / regal force / ruric thar debate has more to do with personal preference, play-style, and meta-game than anything. I play regal force because I like having the extra lines of play available. For me, it really shines when I can play NO but have all my other creatures tapped or sick. Rather than attack for 8-9 damage, I prefer drawing 3-4 cards to potentially win next turn. In addition, you still have a superior board state but are in better position to recover if your opponent plays supreme verdict or terminus next turn. Though uncommon, the situation where you can only gsz for 7 instead of 8 occasionally does come up. Furthermore, while it's undesired to draw the single craterhoof, I've never lost a game after drawing cards off regal force. Finally, resolving regal force after getting a craterhoof trigger stifled should win you the game in most cases too.

Additional fringe benefits of regal force off the top of my head:
- moat
- blazing archon
- ensnaring bridge
- blind obedience
- peacekeeper
- energy field

[Koby]

Additional fringe benefits of regal force off the top of my head:
- moat
- blazing archon
- ensnaring bridge
- blind obedience
- peacekeeper
- energy field

??????

Outside of Blind Obedience, each of those stop Regal Force and Craterhood Behemoth equally and pretty much leaves you with no way to win the game. Some lists might have artifact destruction so Ensnaring Bridge and possibly Energy Field can be answered. Peacekeeper, Moat, and Blazing Archon are straight up auto scoop, unless you run Mortarpod.

[nudon]

??????

Outside of Blind Obedience, each of those stop Regal Force and Craterhood Behemoth equally and pretty much leaves you with no way to win the game. Some lists might have artifact destruction so Ensnaring Bridge and possibly Energy Field can be answered. Peacekeeper, Moat, and Blazing Archon are straight up auto scoop, unless you run Mortarpod.

That's not entirely true since regal force allows you to dig for answers. Game 1, you can still play out your entire deck and kill with multiple deathrite shamans + wirewood symbiotes/quirion rangers or answer artifacts with viridian shaman/qasali pridemage/harmonic sliver. Post-board, you have access to abrupt decay too.

[Koby]

That's not entirely true since regal force allows you to dig for answers. Game 1, you can still play out your entire deck and kill with multiple deathrite shamans + wirewood symbiotes/quirion rangers or answer artifacts with viridian shaman/qasali pridemage/harmonic sliver. Post-board, you have access to abrupt decay too.

If you're really worried about these permanents, then play Emrakul. Oh wait, you guys don't want to have good answers to difficult cards, right?

[HoneyT]

If you're really worried about these permanents, then play Emrakul. Oh wait, you guys don't want to have good answers to difficult cards, right?

For what it's worth, Emrakul only gets around Moat and Energy Field out of those cards. I'm personally a big fan of Mortarpod and almost always run one in my SB. It handles all of those cards outside of Energy Field, which isn't really a card.

[Koby]

For what it's worth, Emrakul only gets around Moat and Energy Field out of those cards. I'm personally a big fan of Mortarpod and almost always run one in my SB. It handles all of those cards outside of Energy Field, which isn't really a card.

FWIW, most of those problem cards are typically played with Rest in Peace which invalidated DRS's alt win-con. Thus we have a situation where we're facing:

Moat / Energy Field / Peacekeeper / Ensnaring Bridge + Rest in Peace. Seems pretty abysmal. Depending on the configuration of the sideboard, there might only be one Harmonic Sliver to help recover from this game state. Peacekeeper is likely the easier to deal with, as DRS will just drain them. This potential matchup is likely not a favorable one. Fortunately, it's so uncommon as to not matter. Just ignore it.

[nudon]

I never said I was worried about those permanents. In fact, I specifically labeled "fringe benefits" of regal force in my original post with the main reasons why I run him listed above. You run regal force too so I'm not sure why you're not on my side. As for mortarpod, I like the equipment too and ran it in my original mono-green build when I first started legacy but didn't think it was necessary with the printing of DRS.

[Koby]

I never said I was worried about those permanents. In fact, I specifically labeled "fringe benefits" of regal force in my original post with the main reasons why I run him listed above. You run regal force too so I'm not sure why you're not on my side. As for mortarpod, I like the equipment too and ran it in my original mono-green build when I first started legacy but didn't think it was necessary with the printing of DRS.

Regal Force doesn't solve the issues Elves has with those cards. You're indirectly referencing ways to beat those cards through Regal Force. If your deck has no answers to these cards, and you cast Regal Force, you're still fucked.

[HoneyT]

This potential matchup is likely not a favorable one. Fortunately, it's so uncommon as to not matter. Just ignore it.

This is the main takeaway. If you play against a deck with all this, fine, you lose. They'll beat every Elf player in the room. Congrats to them. We can continue with realistic matches of Magic.

[nudon]

Regal Force doesn't solve the issues Elves has with those cards. You're indirectly referencing ways to beat those cards through Regal Force. If your deck has no answers to these cards, and you cast Regal Force, you're still fucked.

I may not have explicitly said it in my original post but it was implied that regal force allows you to dig for answers. You said it yourself that some list have artifact destruction. Also, I said in a later post...

"That's not entirely true since regal force allows you to dig for answers. Game 1, you can still play out your entire deck and kill with multiple deathrite shamans + wirewood symbiotes/quirion rangers or answer artifacts with viridian shaman/qasali pridemage/harmonic sliver. Post-board, you have access to abrupt decay too."

[Koby]

Semantics. Regal Force is a fine card to draw cards. I wouldn't use it as justification to answer fringe cards however. The SB suite does that just fine with or without Regal Force.

The best argument for Regal Force is that you may not have enough damage to Hoof people out, in which case you have to pass the turn regardless whether you Hoof it or not. Drawing ~5-8 cards with Regal Force and attempting again next turn is much more favorable than putting the opponent to a low life total.

[nudon]

For the second time, I'm not using it as justification to answer cards from the miracle-control matchup. I said "I like having the extra lines of play available." You pretty much paraphrased my original post.

[trevaftw]

Going to be playing elves at SCG Minnesota and so I've been playing solitaire with the deck again (I was prepping for GP KC so this was on the backburner and didn't put much practice or thought into it). Here is the list I've been gold fishing:

Creatures - 31
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force

Spells - 11
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

Lands - 18
9 Fetches
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest

And I feel like 4 quirion rangers is too many without more llanowar or fyndhorn elves. Going to bump it down to 3 and birchlore up to 3. Would love to hear your input on this.

[Zombie]

Good choice, good choice. Would go -1 Regal, -1 fetch, +1 Hoof or Ruric, +1 Arbor

EDIT: And stuff a Viridian Shaman somewhere in there. Just wrong to not play him. No Shaman maindeck, you lose to one Souls token carrying Jitte. You don't want to lose to one Souls token carrying #¤!&!*!.

[Poron]

how do you deal with a resolved Humility?

[Zombie]

how do you deal with a resolved Humility?

Cry.

EDIT: (Or, in some cases, laugh. many decks play so few creatures because they rely on quality. You have 30 creatures.)

[Poron]

(decks that pack Humility often run 4 Terminus in their 75)

so Humility is a bitch to you. ok

[MD.Ghost]

EDIT: And stuff a Viridian Shaman somewhere in there. Just wrong to not play him. No Shaman maindeck, you lose to one Souls token carrying Jitte. You don't want to lose to one Souls token carrying #¤!&!*!.

With Pridemage/Sliver maindeck you also don´t lose against a flying Jitte and have an edge against rare stuff like Moat, Counterbalance, Energy Field, Enchantress etc. For game 1 (with less disruption): Lingering Souls + Jitte + Attack, are more than enough time for us to end the game with a successful Comboturn.

I think, if you fear Deathblade/Stoneblade decks, Viridian Shaman is a good sideboard option (and can win random games against MUD/ UB Tezz / or other Chalice&Co decks). As i said, game 1 we are most of the time fast enough to avoid an active jitte, so we need stuff like Viridian Shaman only game 2 and 3. After boarding, most games goes longer because we have to fight through more disruption. In these cases we need something to fight back. As discussed before, Viridian Shaman, Cabal Therapy, Abrupt Decay, NO+Prog, Ooze etc are enough options to grind out longer games.


how do you deal with a resolved Humility?

I have 1 Oblivion Ring (mainly against Show&Tell, but also helps against Blazing Archon and stuff like Moat, Peacekeeper, Iona, Elesh Norn etc.) On the one hand it is a lucky one off, but i don´t have more sideboard slots. On the other hand we are a combodeck with a very good card draw engine.

I agree with Zombie, normally Humility isn´t so scary with 30-32 creatures, you can still cast most stuff (a 1/1 for 1 mana is ok) and can cast Glimpsechains. If you fear Humility you can also add 1 Pendelhaven (i had good results with it) or sideboard cards like Krosan Grip. Sure Humility + Jitte is a nasty combo, but in this case you can also draw an uncounterable answer for the equipment (Abrupt Decay) and overwhelm the opponent with an 1/1 army.

EDIT: Terminus + Humility, in this case they also have Counterbalance etc. Miracle is a difficult matchup, you need a balanced play between enough pressure and something to recover (means don´t overextend).

[Kayradis]

Miracle is a difficult matchup, you need a balanced play between enough pressure and something to recover (means don´t overextend).

You should never overextend, even if the deck wants to go that way. That applies to any deck.

[Zombie]

Random thought that struck me reading old articles: If we still played the Entity win, the deck has enough spells to combo-Deathrite people dead through a Moat or somesuch.Probably not relevant at all, but an interesting curiosity nonetheless.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I just played against the new Thespians/Depths deck and got worked game one because I couldn't interact with their combo at all. Games two and three, I brought in Therapy for Living Wish and hitting that really messed up his deck. I'd like to play this more, but that's what worked for me if you get a chance to play it.

[Kayradis]

It's in my opinion that G2 against combo, removing the master key in their combo with cabal therapy is how it's done.

[Lemnear]

It's in my opinion that G2 against combo, removing the master key in their combo with cabal therapy is how it's done.

Requires that you know, what to name with therapy to snatch their most valuable card in hand, something that sadly even the majority of combo players is not aware off ... lol

[nudon]

Random thought that struck me reading old articles: If we still played the Entity win, the deck has enough spells to combo-Deathrite people dead through a Moat or somesuch.Probably not relevant at all, but an interesting curiosity nonetheless.

You can still glimpse combo through a moat (and other similar cards) with a non-sick DRS, untap effects, and birchlore ranger. After drawing up a good chunk of your deck, it's easy to drain for 8 on your turn and another 8 on your opponent's turn with symbiote. If extra sorceries are needed, you can always discard extra gszs at the end of your turn and drain again on their upkeep. Even with a sick DRS, your opponent is still on a 1 turn clock (assuming you've played all of the symbiotes and quirion rangers in your deck out).

[Julian23]

Before somebody says this line of play only works every once in a blue moon: I've seen it happen more often than you'd think. Sadly, most of the time it was people giving up midcombo without realizing all they'd had to do was to discard their GSZ's at end of turn.

[Zombie]

TIL: Machineguns are better than they seem.

[trevaftw]

On the subject of miracles, why aren't people just running more cavern of souls?

[jrw1985]

TIL: Machineguns are better than they seem.

Ok, that the fuck does TIL stand for? I'm only used to seeing it in mortgage banking where it stands for Truth in Lending. Now I've seen it like five times today and I'm lost.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, that the fuck does TIL stand for? I'm only used to seeing it in mortgage banking where it stands for Truth in Lending. Now I've seen it like five times today and I'm lost.

Today I Learned

[chinEsE girl]

TIL stands for today I learned.

Also on the subject of cavern, sure you can name elf and play out one uncounterable creature per turn. But that means you have to cut down on fetches or duals or cradles, you can't have your symbiote a come down off it, and you can't glimpse chain with only 1 uncounterable creature. It's better just to play bayous, have a pridemage/sliver in the board, and have some number of abrupt decays.

[Dice_Box]

On Cavern.

Playing Goblins or Stompy it has its place. In Elves what does it get you? You have one critter a turn of the 3 you play unable to be counted, only if it starts in your opening hand and it limits what you can play... I mean when you look at your opening hand what do you want to see, the card that makes everything simple but offers only a colour or two or do you want:

A single creature unable to be counted
Unable to play spells off it (GSZ first turn or without a mana dork)
Unable to play the non chosen creature type
Able to be eaten by wasteland

Cavern does not suit this deck. It runs too few mana that have other roles to fill. If you really wanted to run them I would take out your Cradles, you need everything else to either be a fetch target or be a fetch.

[Kayradis]

No cavern.
It's anti-synergic.
And please. Do not cut Gaea's Cradle. Nothing is more enjoyable than using your last remaining G to recycle your used cradle for a new one mid-way thru a Glimpse chain.

Also. I do believe now there should be a test before playing in a tournament with Elves!

Q : Do you think you can do worse than Jackie Lee?

A : Yes? Can you count to 20? Here's Mono-R Burn. Play that instead.

I'm still astonished by how bad she played it.

[Dice_Box]

Hay, I play burn too... Just a question, it's 17, 18, 20 right?

Also I was not meaning for anyone to really cut cradle. I just wanted to point out that all you could do to play cavern in this deck was to cut cradle. A statement to prove how silly the idea is.

Lastly, does anyone have a link to this video? I see you all talk about it buy I have not seen it yet.

[Kayradis]

Lastly, does anyone have a link to this video? I see you all talk about it buy I have not seen it yet.

Look for the last SCG Sunday.

Round 5 I believe.

[catmint]

I had to go away... could not watch Jackie... too painful. But also the other guy had no clue what he was doing... lol.
If people want to take difficult decks they don't know properly to a tournament that is fine...but why do you send those on camera!?!

[Kayradis]

I think we (I?) ranted enough about that dark day in Elves! history.

Didn't Danyul or somebody else had the whole thing foiled?

I was thinking about a weird interaction yesterday with Chord Of Calling, Cratherhoof Behemoth and Ensnaring Bridge.

Situation :

Let's say you have 1 card in hand(CoC) and 6-8 Elves (1/1,1/2) and Ensnaring Bridge in play.
Declare Attackers Step, swing with the good old green swarm
Declare Blockers Step, opponent block everything, thinking you're doing a desperate swing.
Before Damage Step, Chords of Calling, fetching my good friend Hoofy Doofy, EtB trigger, gives between +7/+7 or +9/+9 tramble.
Pass Priority.

Will it work or I'm just going way off the road?

[Lemnear]

I had to go away... could not watch Jackie... too painful. But also the other guy had no clue what he was doing... lol.
If people want to take difficult decks they don't know properly to a tournament that is fine...but why do you send those on camera!?!

Because putting her on Feature is SCG self-promotion. Too bad this turned out being the opposite and showed the class and skill of parts of their staff. Goes Hand in Hand with their commentary.

I demand becoming a fly-in to comment on Storm matchups :D

[Zombie]

Yes, it works. The restriction only prevents creatures with a higher power from being declared as attackers. Nothing about an 11-mana instant Overrun.

[Kayradis]

I demand becoming a fly-in to comment on Storm matchups :D

After reading your multiple reports, I have to say I'd probably enjoy that a lot.

[Dice_Box]

I think we (I?) ranted enough about that dark day in Elves! history.

Didn't Danyul or somebody else had the whole thing foiled?

I was thinking about a weird interaction yesterday with Chord Of Calling, Cratherhoof Behemoth and Ensnaring Bridge.

Situation :

Let's say you have 1 card in hand(CoC) and 6-8 Elves (1/1,1/2) and Ensnaring Bridge in play.
Declare Attackers Step, swing with the good old green swarm
Declare Blockers Step, opponent block everything, thinking you're doing a desperate swing.
Before Damage Step, Chords of Calling, fetching my good friend Hoofy Doofy, EtB trigger, gives between +7/+7 or +9/+9 tramble.
Pass Priority.

Will it work or I'm just going way off the road?
That's how it works. Once, when I was playing burn, a guy gave a Jitte to his birds of paradise so he could attack and then pump it. Same deal here only the method is different.

[HammafistRoob]

I saw two of her games previous to the feature match, she was sitting next to me round 2. Her play just goes to show how strong the beatdown plan can be.

[Dice_Box]

That's a strong point to make. I have been playing this for about 2 months now, building and getting a feel for it. Now after all this time I feel like (in my hands) the deck is a Aggro deck first with a combo finisher. Maybe it's my 9ish or so years piloting goblins but I still find it simpler to drop a Symbiote (spelling is bad on my mobile) and then green out a Visionary while I draw to critical mass and hoof.

I mean I can combo, I know how to, I know the cards to keep to do so. I have tried to tweak the deck to be better at combing off, but I still find Hoof is just my primary win condition with Glimpse just being something that I have there, in case I need it.

But if you strip away the rest of the deck and have a very brittle combo. Personally I am thankful for the aggro path because I have seen the deck fold combo wise to a single lighting bolt.

(Note to self. Why are you still awake...)

[Kayradis]

That's the reason why I advocate Ruric Thar main deck!
I mean, the guy is a fairly good, if not great, beater on its own and he hoses down combo and heavy-manipulation/spell dependant decks.

[TsumiBand]

Going through my crap collection the other day I came to realize that I built an Elf deck for my wife like 6 years ago and completely forgot about it, and it could very easily become one of these lists - minus the Cradles probably, but whatever :(

Anyway, I apologize if this is directly addressed in a post somewhere in the history, but what exactly keeps the fatty-based lists from running Fierce Empath? Is it just because there's no longer an impetus to run Eldrazi creatures, so GSZ covers all the creature-tutor bases? Alternatively, if one were to play Emmy in such a list, would it not be advantageous to run a non-zero number of Fierce Empaths to tutor for said Emrakul?

[Zombie]

If you can hardcast Emralolol, you're probably Glimpsing off and drawing a million cards.

Apart from that, all the best win cons sans Mirror Entity are green and thus GSZ/NO-able. The main reason you would ever want something that's not green is for utility.

[Koby]

I had to go away... could not watch Jackie... too painful. But also the other guy had no clue what he was doing... lol.
If people want to take difficult decks they don't know properly to a tournament that is fine...but why do you send those on camera!?!

I have no problem when the quality of players shown - we can use them as learning experiences. It was only Round 5, not the Top 8.