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Rag Man
04-14-2005, 01:17 PM
One of the most enduring things about the history of the game of Magic has been the sheer cool factor of creating a new deck. Now, I'm not one to say anything about originality, but I think I know a thing or two about coming up with some original (and powerful) creations. Some of my attempts have indeed failed, but like any scientist or anyone who is driven to succeed, you must fail to succeed in the game of Magic. I learned this the very hard way, with alot of five dollar entry fees gone into the pockets of others over the last twelve years. But I can safely say that the deck I am about to present to you is a deck I have been tinkering with for the last two months while I have been away from the game. It is built on the premise of one card from Urza's Destiny - Gamekeeper. Not too many people are familiar with this card:

The Game (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/UD/Gamekeeper.html)

Now that we know what the card does, why not try and abuse it? Now I know what you might be thinking, that perhaps this card just isn't viable enough because it might hit another Gamekeeper. Yes, this is true.
But...what if we were able to use that to our advantage? The truth is, this is a very powerful underlooked card in the current Eternal format. Now, let us take a look at the deck.

Official Deck List Updated - 6/7/05

"The Game"
by "Hollywood" Mike Keller

"The Game", Current

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Naturalize
1 Regrowth
1 Dragon Breath

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//5cc
2 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land-Mana
7 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Treetop Village

//Sideboard
4 Perish
2 Persecute
3 Tsunami
2 Coffin Purge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Cranial Extraction


Here is a comprehensive look at the choices for "The Game".

Duress: Probably the best single discard spell of all time. A 4 of must.

Cabal Therapy: Better than Duress. The heart and soul of the deck. By playing Gamekeeper, you flashback the Therapy to Oath down into another creature. You hit another Gamekeeper, no problem. Flashback a milled Therapy...and repeat process. Sooner or later, this card will obtain you your win condition, DSC.

Hymn to Tourach: Just awesome. For two mana, you get two cards out of an opponent's hand at random. Could really put a damper on their day.

Night's Whisper: There are few black cards that allow you to draw so cheaply. This is probably the definitive choice, and two cards for two mana in a deck which depletes its hand early on is awesome.

Pernicious Deed: Probably the best board control card in the game...maybe better than Disk in the right deck. It's good here to halt the onslaught of creatures, artifacts, and enchantments.

Gamekeeper: The heart and soul of the deck. Like an Oath of Druids built into a creature. It's true...it does cost two more than Oath. But essentially what happened when the format was changed was the clock went back a few turns. And with early protection through discard and board control, you shouldn't have a problem resolving one eventually and winning the game with Collossus.

Darksteel Collossus: Your win condition. Only two because 3 is slightly too many and 4 is just overkill.

Most of the other cards in the deck or pretty self explanable...so feel free to test the deck out!

The rest of the sideboard is pretty much optional, but I love the way mine turned out over the last two months of playtesting. I hope you enjoy this deck and I hope you appreciate what it takes to come up with an innovative deck idea. When playing this deck, keep several things in mind:

1. It plays like Oath, kind of. You have ways of searching and restacking your deck to ensure you get a fattie with other contigency, utility cards. More often than not, you don't need to restack your deck. You'll hit a fattie sooner than later. Just make
sure you plow out your opponent's hand with discard.

2. Play it slow. Don't try to combo out unless you know for sure what your opponent is playing. Know you have alot of outlets to make things happen, and make sure you knock their hand out as best as you can. 99.9% of the time, your opponent will need to go into top-deck mode to pull the Swords to stop you.

3. If an opponent won't kill the Gamekeeper, then kill him with it.

4. You should be able to beat control decks with this deck. The bottom line is, there is only so many ways they can stop what your doing before you actually do it. You have everything you need and can employ to beat it. You play a boatload of discard as backup.

5. Before you play an opponent, fire up Motorhead's "The Game". You'll be so psyched to smash face, you'll be sure to win!


Hope you all like it!

"Hollywood".

Peter_Rotten
04-14-2005, 01:21 PM
Quick suggestion. Since killing the Gamekeeper is essential to the game plan, why not include Cabal Therapy?

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 01:25 PM
There you go man. 4 Therapy over Duress...DUHHHHH!!

EDIT: (Talking to self) Shame on you, Hollywood. How'd you miss that??

LunchBox
04-14-2005, 01:29 PM
Cabal Therapy > Duress

As for using Gamekeeper: It's neat and all, but why not just use Pattern of Rebirth instead. You would need to increase the number of sacrifice outlets, but at least you could make sure that you hit a DSC or Slagbomb (or whatever, Akroma, Sundering Titan, etc.). Then you don't have to play Foresight.

EDIT: When I started this response, no one had said anything yet. My bad.



Edited By LunchBox on 1113499798

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 01:31 PM
Gamekeeper is a better choice than Pattern of Rebirth because Pattern of Rebirth has an additional requirement that this deck is at nature suppose to lack: alot of creatures to enchant! :;):

Di
04-14-2005, 01:42 PM
So..what exactly do you do when Gamekeeper is StP'd? Living Wish is cute, but it's blah. StP messes up your entire gameplan.

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 01:43 PM
When I played it in Mask, it was a house, even you know that Colin. If StP is all someone can muster up to try and stop me from winning...I'll either Therapy it out, counter it, or Living Wish it back. Read above...you play the deck methodically.

Cabal Therapy (updated Hollywood Oracle)
Counter target Swords to Plowshares.

Jander78
04-14-2005, 01:54 PM
Hmm....weird deck.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Why is Serum Visions stronger than Brainstorm? If you draw the fattie in your hand, you have no way (outside of Lat-Nam's Legacy) to get it out of your hand and back into your deck.

2. Intuition seems like it would be a powerhouse in this deck. You can Intuition for all three Gamekeepers to get them out of the deck so you don't hit one after it's trigger goes off. I would also dump some of the complicated draw cards (i.e. Lat-Nam's Legacy/Foresight) and add Accumulated Knowledge.

3. Worldly Tutor seems very strong in this deck, not only to find the Gamekeeper, but to make sure you don't dump a whole lot of crap into your yard and not end up hitting blessing. I'd almost like to see 1-2 more of this card in the deck.

4. Any thoughts on Dark Ritual? This could go allow for the second turn Collosus. I realize the mana base is streched pretty far already, but it seems like you have enough sac mechanisms already not to need cards like Phyrexian Tower/High Market.

5. Force of Will??

Just some thoughts.....but I like the deck idea.

Ewokslayer
04-14-2005, 01:58 PM
Manipulate Fate should probably replace Foresight as you get to draw the card immediately.

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 02:00 PM
Hmm....weird deck.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Why is Serum Visions stronger than Brainstorm? If you draw the fattie in your hand, you have no way (outside of Lat-Nam's Legacy) to get it out of your hand and back into your deck.

2. Intuition seems like it would be a powerhouse in this deck. You can Intuition for all three Gamekeepers to get them out of the deck so you don't hit one after it's trigger goes off. I would also dump some of the complicated draw cards (i.e. Lat-Nam's Legacy/Foresight) and add Accumulated Knowledge.

3. Worldly Tutor seems very strong in this deck, not only to find the Gamekeeper, but to make sure you don't dump a whole lot of crap into your yard and not end up hitting blessing. I'd almost like to see 1-2 more of this card in the deck.

4. Any thoughts on Dark Ritual? This could go allow for the second turn Collosus. I realize the mana base is streched pretty far already, but it seems like you have enough sac mechanisms already not to need cards like Phyrexian Tower/High Market.

5. Force of Will??

Just some thoughts.....but I like the deck idea.
Hey Rick! Thanks for the questions and interest.

1. Brainstorm allows me to dig three deep into my deck. It also can restructure the top of my library. With Brainstorm, by drawing three cards, I am more likely to draw into a fattie than Serum Visions. Serum Visions allows me to put a fattie on the bottom or top, and can give me a choice of what to draw into rather than setting me back a few turns like Brtainstorm. It gives me more options, and I like that.

2. You're right. In fact, I'm updating the list as we speak. I forgot about Intuition.

3. I actually had 3 in the deck at one point, and it was a pretty good choice. Just needed to cut back because it was was kind of like Serum Visions in a way.

4. Ritual is another good option. I will include it in the updated list and post testing results ASAP.

5. Not enough blue to support the cause, yet. Cabal Therapy and Mana Leak are sufficient enough because the deck isn't primarily blue in nature...it is green. Force of Will would be card disadvantage in this build.

NeoMike
04-14-2005, 02:04 PM
Well - my only thought/s are:

- Brainstorm vs. Serum Visions - Wouldn't Drawing a fattie be bad? So Brainstorm being able to put the fattie back on top would be really good... Right?

- I think your mana base needs some work, but I'm not the one to suggest anything on it.

Good luck.

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 02:06 PM
Check out the new list. Alot more solid, I think.

cheeseman
04-14-2005, 03:21 PM
Why not add a few Show and Tells? The overwhelming majority of the time, you're going to have the upper hand on what permanent to put in play (Colossus>>>Mogg Fanatic).

50 Posts for me!

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 03:24 PM
I like you cheeseman, you seem really cool. However, I suggest reading my sideboard first :D

I'm looking at Sundering Titan as well...let you all know playtesting results.

cheeseman
04-14-2005, 04:17 PM
Is my bad :D

Still, I like them maindeck. Thanks for the complement!

Obfuscate Freely
04-14-2005, 04:59 PM
I think you want more than 2 Intuitions. It's just so good in here. You can go get AKs, get the Gamekeeper, or fetch up 3 Therapies. I'd find room for a 3rd, and even consider a 4th.

(EDIT: I suppose this deck would rarely want to Intuition for *3* Therapies, but fetching at least 1 still gets you a sacrifice outlet.)

Overall, I think more redundancy would be nice. The 4th Brainstorm, the 4th Therapy, and the 4th Mana Leak are all conspicuous in their absence. Only running 2 Wishes seems a little weak, as well, since they require such a butchering of the sideboard. What to cut, I don't know - the Rituals, the Bloods, and the 4th Collossus all seem unnecessary to me. Cutting Worldly Tutor for more Wishes also seems to make sense.

I agree with others that the manabase looks shaky. It's also missing Ancient Tomb, which I think would be extremely solid in the deck. Powering out Intuitions and Gamekeepers sounds hot. Your deck looks more blue and black than green, so I'd try something like:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Island
1x Swamp

3x Ancient Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x High Market (if these are needed; I'm not so sure)

I imagine that cutting Wastelands can be justified as this deck isn't much to take advantage of tempo and you can always use Living Wish to fetch one if you need to answer a Maze of Ith or something.

A big benefit of basing the manabase in blue is being able to change the Mana Leaks to Counterspells. It's also noteworthy that the changes I've suggested will let you support Force of Will.

In summary, I would tentatively suggest:

-3 Mana Leak
-3 Innocent Blood
-3 Dark Ritual
-2 Worldly Tutor
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Darksteel Collossus

+1 Intuition
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Living Wish
+4 Counterspell
+4 Force of Will (blue card count should be 19)

I am making these suggestions without any testing at all, like an ass, so feel free to dismiss them. Cutting Blood in particular might be dumb; does this deck need early board control beyond a quick Gamekeeper? You know better than I do.

Overall I like the deck idea. It's Oath for Legacy!



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1113513286

Sims
04-14-2005, 05:13 PM
Well the primary reason for the Bloods and Tower/Market was to allow him ways to Sacrifice the Gamekeeper outside of flashing back Cabal Therapy, so I would be hesitant to cut them. Also, allowing yourself ot set up the top of your library with a fatty via Worldly Tutor is the tech when you are preparing to get rid of a Keeper, so why cut them?

Just a few things I noticed Ob.

Obfuscate Freely
04-14-2005, 05:22 PM
Why is that so techy? If you have the time to do that, Intuitioning the remaining Gamekeepers is just as good. I just think that Worldly Tutor is such a subpar way to fetch up the Gamekeeper to begin with that I'd much rather run Wishes or Intuitions in its place. Perhaps the 4th Intuition would be better than the 4th Wish, however.

As for the sacrifice outlets, I realize why they are there. I'm just skeptical that so many are necessary. Between Wish (for Valley), Therapy, Deed, and the other search, it shouldn't be too difficult to set off the 'keeper.

The neat thing about this deck is that, like Oath, it punishes aggro decks for executing their strategy. If you can't quickly find a sacrifice outlet for the Gamekeeper, at least he will keep your opponent from attacking you until they have lethal damage ready. Thus I doubt the merits of running weak cards primarily as sacrifice outlets.

asmoranomardicadaistinacu
04-14-2005, 09:46 PM
THis is Dan Lewis !-_-!, and I just got2 make a point, in deck testing, we have found that taking out the Intuitions & AK's for 3 Serium Visions and 3 Mask of the Mimic works better. Also can sub in 3 Divining Tops for the Brainstorms also adding 1 extra wordly tutor.
Against Goblin "The Game" won 3-0
Against Life.deck 3-0
Against Madness 2-1
Against TurboLand 2-1
Against Burn 2-1
We did not have a chance 2 take on Land$till. SO in this its a little more stable and more sound.

This is Hollywood speaking now: The addition of Mask of the Mimic is instrumental in the way I execute the "game" plan. The card is another outlet against cards like StP, Fire/Ice, etc. and is another way of getting Collossus into play. At worst, it's a 1cc instant which can fetch me an untapped 11/11 or another Gamekeeper, which would then trigger a search for yet another creature. Mask of the Mimic turns Gamekeeper into a double-oath, period.

Just for reference, here is Mask of the Mimic:
Mask of the Mimic...TECH! (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/SH/Mask_of_the_Mimic.html)

Intuition is not as good as I thought it would be. The bottom line was this: through playtesting, I found that I didn't even need to cast it because I was Living Wishing for the alternate Gamekeeper or Worldly Tutoring for the Gamekeepers/Collossi in the deck. Tack that on with Brainstorm and the adddition of Serum Visions, with possibly Divining Tops, and Intuition/AK becomes wasted slots. Here's a scenario:

I have a Diamond Valley out. I tap it and sacrifice a Keeper. I just happen to hit another Keeper. What everyone is failing to realize, is that I still have the Diamond Valley on the board with a Gamekeeper OR Cabal Therapies in the yard post-Keepering. Bottom line, I will hit a Collossus sooner than later, period. The deck is a house right now...but much more testing to come from Team Headstone.

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 10:09 PM
Here's the updated version of the decklist after playing it practically all day:

"The Game.dec"
by "Hollywood" Mike Keller

//1cc
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Mask of the Mimic
3 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Worldly Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
//2cc
3 Mana Leak
3 Living Wish
1 Gaea's Blessing
//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed
//4cc
3 Gamekeeper
//11cc
4 Darksteel Collossus
//Land
4 Island
4 Forest
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 High Market
1 Phyrexian Tower

//Sideboard
3 Show and Tell
3 Perish
3 Naturalize
1 Withered Wretch
1 Gamekeeper
1 Diamond Valley
1 Maze of Ith
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Gigapede

Changes:
- 4 Accumulated Knowledge
- 2 Intuition
- 3 Brainstorm
- 1 Eternal Witness

+ 3 Mask of the Mimic
+ 3 Sensei's Diving Top
+ 1 Living Wish
+ 1 Cabal Therapy
+ 1 Worldly Tutor
+ 1 Gigapede

These changes made alot of difference in the tempo, search utility, and protection against cards that would traditionally harm this deck. StP is overrated against this deck, because there are so many ways of eliminating that threat, there's no need to worry.
Another thing people might have noticed is the count of 1cc upped a tad bit. I have Deed, Therapy, Mana Leak, Orangutan, and Naturalize to handle Chalice which, quite frankly, isn't seeing an awful lot of play anyways. I don't fear it, and neither should you. The changes really made the deck more solid.
Gigapede >>>>>>>>> Landstill, even by itself. It's just so good, and when I played it in Mask, it wrecked face. Just an annoying card for the Landstill player to face. This deck auto-wins against Solidarity...as you cannot deck me with Darksteel Colossus in the deck. It automatically gets shuffled back into my library, never hitting the graveyard.
Also, the manabase for this deck has worked just fine. There might some minor alterations, but nothing worth getting bent out of shape over. I'll report back to you all soon.

No_Life_No_Future
04-14-2005, 11:18 PM
Hey!

I havent playtested the deck at all (I have played a ton of oath though) so you can chose to ignore my comments, but it seems to me that by going three colors you may be making a mistake. I think that the deck should chose between being a control deck or a combo deck.

By sticking to 2 colors you can increase the consistancy of the deck and eliminate a difficult mana base. The problem with going UG seems to be that there are not enough sacing ability cards that are great to run...

If I were you I would focus on speed.

I would take out the blue and add these possiblities:
4 Ritual
4 Duress
4 Unmask (force of will's best friend)
4 chainers/diabolic eddict (can use on yourself if needed)
4 Lotus petal


I think by switching up the colors you may be able to increase the speed of the deck. (I havent yet playtested it so if this is a junk post.. treat it as such)

Rag Man
04-14-2005, 11:31 PM
Thanks for your interest in the deck cool. One of the major prospects in setting up the design for a deck like this was deciding whether or not to go control or combo. Now, you did say you're an Oath player, so I'm sure you know there are different variations of Oath decks that play differently, but all ultimately rely on the power of Oath of Druids. Same concept applies here, except in this case, Oath is not legal. Now, we have to focus on resolving and killing the Gamekeeper. It isn't hard to kill him, but what is more important is ensuring that a Collossus hits or a Gamekeeper hits the table. Gamekeeper is kind of like a Moat, or even it's white Destiny cohort, Grandma Rector. It is by nature a card people don't want to resolve.
Which brings me to my next point: go control or combo. Well, this deck plays a little bit of both. Allow me to explain. This deck actually says "I win" if Gamekeeper resolves, more often than not. Sure your opponent may bounce it or StP it, but you have many answers to deal with that which you can read in the card explanations. There are several control factors this deck possesses to make certain the important invariables of the deck aren't tampered with. Now, with that in mind, what I've said makes this deck sound more combo-oriented. It's the best of both worlds.
Color choices. Well, to be quite honest, with the amount of fetches and dual lands readily available at the deck's disposal, it shouldn't be too hard to cast particular cards, more noteably the black ones. Cabal Therapy is in essence free, and Pernicious Deed is the best board sweeper in the game, arguably. You must maintain board control when playing a deck like this because if you don't have a Gamekeeper or Collossus on the board, then cards like Deed and such will help buy you turns until you do "combo" out. You have plenty of control aspects to slow down a control player's impending countermagic. You win versus aggro, period. You resolve a Gamekeeper, and chances are, they won't touch you at all....otherwise they'll be staring down the barrell of an 11/11 shotgun or a card like Pernicious Deed. Cards like Swords to Plowshares and Counterspells don't hurt this deck at all. In fact, what we've done in essence is increase the count of very important cards in the deck by simply adding the Living Wishes and Mask of the Mimic and staying at a comfortable 60 card main deck. They are five-for-one goodness, with much more useful benefits than disadvantages. They provide escape mechanisms and win conditions that aren't seen to the naked eye at first.
Force of Will is not good in this deck, and I'll tell you why: It's card disadvantage. Sure, you save your ass by countering something they cast. But this deck is at nature not predominantly a counter-magic deck at heart. By this, I mean they should have an answer to your two-card counterspell. Not to say it's a bad choice, because I can see where the argument arises for FoW, but it just doesn't beat out Therapy which works just beautifully on its own here. Toss in a few Mana Leaks, given the colors and curve of the deck, and you have a nice compliment of control which doesn't out do itself in the process.
Innocent Blood is one black mana to cast, and kills your Gamekeeper AND one of their creatures as well. Strictly superior to Edicts here...two for one goodness rocks.
One of the things people think about when they think about this deck is what happens if Gamekeeper hits another Keeper. Well, think of it this way:

1.) You only have 3 Keepers maindeck, which means when one dies, you have a 76% chance of nailing a Collossus (assuming all creatures are in still in your deck).
2.) You have Worldly Tutor.
3.) When you mill through cards with Keeper, you're likely to hit a Cabal Therapy. So if you hit another Keeper, flashback Therapy, and repeat process.
4.) Mask of the Mimic allows you to Oath twice essentially, removing a Gamekeeper from your library, putting it into play, then Oathing for another creature. Two for one power, in a one casting cost instant.
5.) Gamekeeper is like I said, a Moat. No one playing aggro will attack you, otherwise they deserve to die.
6.) So you tapped your Diamond Valley to gain two life and mill down and get another Gamekeeper. At worst you gained two life and possibly hit a Therapy in the yard or wait until the next turn to tap the Valley or Market and win.

I hope this helped out a bit, because I'm really working hard on this deck with my friends and so far it is really good. Now all it needs is a true test...and I will test it out this Saturday for the Dual Land draft tourney.

Hollywood

Carney2k4
04-15-2005, 10:12 AM
Wow, this deck seems....really...really strong. Hats off to you here. Are you positive cutting the Intuitions is a good idea? Mask is good, but I still think Intuition deserves some spots. The only problem thought would be what to cut. Were Tops really strong for you?

legacyplayer
04-15-2005, 10:16 AM
If you played more permission, worldy tutors, and draw maybe you could speed up your combo with that blue vor with flying that has power and toughness equal to the number of dead instants. You could make up for the lost discard and creature kill with stuff like cunning wish, diabolic edict, and forces. You could have a pretty good chance of killing the turn you get gameskeeper if u ran dragon breath, but you may have to go down to one gameskeeper to pull this off:( . It seems kind of unreliable, but if you ran a full set of worldy tutors, brainstorms, and maybe impulses, it could be pretty consistant.

scrumdogg
04-15-2005, 10:25 AM
Ummmm, I hate to rain on your parade, but here is the errata on your Mask (from the link you provided).

Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U SH(U)
Text (SH+errata): As an additional cost to play ~this~, sacrifice a creature. ; Search your library for a card with the same name as target nontoken creature and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library. [Oracle 2003/07/01]

You target a card in play which is a "Creature" or "Artifact Creature" card, even if that card is not currently a creature due to some effect. [D'Angelo 1999/06/01] Older cards of type Summon can also be targeted.
You can choose the sacrificed creature as the target, but if you do so the effect will fizzle on resolution and you will not get to look for a creature. [Duelist Magazine #25, Page 31]
You look for a card of the same name, the current type of the card does not matter. [WotC Rules Team 1998/03/18]
If a copy card, such as Clone, is targeted by this effect, you get to look for another copy of the card it is copying (not the Clone card). This is because a copy card actually takes on the name and initial characteristics of what it copies. [WotC Rules Team 1999/03/18]
You do not have to find a card if you do not want to. See Rule G19.3. [D'Angelo 2001/07/14]

Ergo, you can sac the Gamekeeper in response to an STP but you will not be getting another Gamekeeper unless you have 2x Gamekeeper in play. Without a viable copy to target, the ability fizzles although it does activate normal Gamekeeper nonsense. In fact, if you have 2x Gamekeeper in play, Mask of the Mimic guarantees you a non-Gamekeeper critter (assuming you haven't Wished for a Gamekeeper). Neat idea, I look forward to playing against it on Saturday (as alawys, we should have some titanic games) :cool:

PS Edit... I believe that I may have typed Gamekeeper more in the last six minutes than in the last six years.....

Rag Man
04-15-2005, 03:01 PM
If you played more permission, worldy tutors, and draw maybe you could speed up your combo with that blue vor with flying that has power and toughness equal to the number of dead instants. You could make up for the lost discard and creature kill with stuff like cunning wish, diabolic edict, and forces. You could have a pretty good chance of killing the turn you get gameskeeper if u ran dragon breath, but you may have to go down to one gameskeeper to pull this off:( . It seems kind of unreliable, but if you ran a full set of worldy tutors, brainstorms, and maybe impulses, it could be pretty consistant.
The deck prevents early threats with countermagic, Therapy, and Deed, with Living Wish tech in the board. Then, when I proceed to cast a Gamekeeper, Living Wish for one, or Worldly Tutor for one, then I'm fine. The deck is very consistent, as playtesting results have shown. Playing a full set of Worldly Tutors would be overkill, as would a playing 4 Brainstorm. In fact, Sensei's Divining Top is much better because it allows me to stack every turn, or put target card in my hand. I like that. Now it needs to step up and play Landstill. I'll try that matchup out later tonight, along w/ Tog and ATS.

midnightAce
04-15-2005, 03:40 PM
Search your library for a card with the same name as target nontoken creature and put that card into play.

Doesn't this imply that if I have one Gamekeeper as my only creature out, I can't cast Mask of Mimic in response to StP because I wouldn't have a legal target? (Assuming that my opponent has no creatures.)

Rag Man
04-15-2005, 03:57 PM
What would happen is this:

Let's say you have one Gamekeeper out. They Swords it. In response, you could cast Mask. What would then happen is the Mask checks to see potential targets you have AFTER the cost of sacrificing. You have none, so it won't fetch another Gamekeeper. But, it's okay because Keeper's triggered ability goes on the stack and you would then Oath after Mimic resolves. In some ways, Gamekeeper is better than Oath because your opponent doesn't have to have a creature in play and you can Oath at any time during the game. So, that's why it works really well with Mask of the Mimic.

raginranger
04-19-2005, 07:46 PM
I have tested this deck, your versions and mine, heavily in apprentice and I have found that blue is really not necessary.

I prefer a straight up B/G version: here it is:

land:
4x p-delta
4x bayou
4x tainted wood
4x swamp
4x forest
high market
phyrexian tower

3x gamekeeper
4x darksteel colossus
4x dark ritual
4x night's whisper
2x worldly tutor
3x innocent blood
3x terror
3x pernicious deed
3x duress
4x cabal therapy
3x naturalize
3x living wish


sb:
gamekeeper
land...havn't really worked with much yet. mainly i use it to wish for gamekeeper.

You really don't have to worry about swords to plowshares with the obvious 4 therapy plus the 3 duress I use. naturalize is maindeck to prevent against pacifism which many kids and such use in my area. good against survival obviously as well.

Just wanted to throw his out there as another potential way to go with this deck. Overall, the concept of the deck is great, whether you go for the 3 color or 2 color. You are inherently good against control and combo because of your hand disruption, your colossus is bigger than any creature aggro will put out. The main problem I've found that this deck has is not against any control or combo matchup but a fast aggro deck or one packing angel can eek out wins a fair amount of the time. Once angel hits, p-deed doesnt help. Thats kinda why I added terror. get rid of mother and such with deed and then terror angel...etc.

Rag Man
04-20-2005, 04:49 AM
So, after staying up all night with Bob (RaiderBob) on the computer, we both did some deck-teching. One of the things we found that was a problem with this previous build was the over-abundance of utility, which hindered the deck's overall balance. So, we decided to smooth out the edges and add a few more tricks to the deck. We needed more protection, as this deck plays almost identically to Illusionary Mask/Phyrexian Dreadnought. You need to resolve one to get the other in play.

So, here is our list which we feel is much stronger than before.

:angry:"The Game" :angry: (version 2)
by Hollywood and Bob

//1cc
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
3 Worldly Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
//2cc
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Night's Whisper
2 Living Wish
2 Sylvan Library
//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Eternal Witness
//4cc
3 Gamekeeper
//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus
//Land
5 Swamp
5 Forest
4 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 High Market
1 Phyrexian Tower

//Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Naturalize
3 Dystopia
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Gamekeeper
1 Eternal Witness
1 Withered Wretch
1 Diamond Valley

Basically, we changed alot of the deck towards tempo rather than utility, because the basis of the deck revolved mainly around Gamekeeper. Any opponent playing against this deck would try and simply stop the Gamekeeper for the win. We discovered that with plenty of discard and disruptive outlets, the deck will perform very solid. There is also alot of re-retrieval in the event a Gamekeeper dies. Another noticeable change is the drop from four Collossus down to two. Simply put, with the Witnesses/Therapy/Gamekeeper engine, you're almost guaranteed to hit a Collossus. And more often than not, you name Swords to Plowshares when you Therapy, in case you didn't know that (lol). At any rate, the deck is very resiliant, and should be light years ahead of the first version. I'll post playtesting results as soon as I can.

umbowta
04-20-2005, 12:11 PM
Man this deck looks like hellavus loads of fun to play. I just read the entire thread and I can hardly wait to toss this craziness together. My hat is off to Hollywood for the deck creation, and to P.R. for starting this whole contest...I'm still having loads of fun playing with Elf Staff.

Grollub
04-20-2005, 02:42 PM
Simply put, with the Witnesses/Therapy/Gamekeeper engine, you're almost guaranteed to hit a Collossus.
How does that engine work? You Gamekeeper, Therapy it, mill alot and then get something back? Or is it Therapy, Witness, Therapy, Gamekeeper, Flashback.

I don't quite see it helping out, when you really want a Collossus to beat you could get stuck with a lovely 2/1. :-P

Props on a pretty cool deck. :)

Rag Man
04-20-2005, 02:56 PM
It's not really an engine, per say. Here's what happens: you have a Gamekeeper in play. The Gamekeeper is sacrificed to whatever or dies to whatever. Then, you Oath down until you hit another creature. Now, one several things will happen. You'll hit a:


1. Gamekeeper
2. Collossus
3. Eternal Witness


1. In the event number one occurs, you're more than likely to have another sacrifice outlet either in your hand or graveyard, via a milled Cabal Therpay. It doesn't matter if it is countered, the cost of Therapy is sacrificing a creature. So you Oath again.

2. Combo-breaker!

3. In the event you hit an Eternal Witness, you can flashback a Therapy, return a Living Wish to hand to Wish for Gamekeeper, return a Worldly Tutor to hand to get a Gamekeeper, etc.

See, this deck plays very similar as I said to my old MaskNought deck. It has alot of defense before comboing out. And with so many ways to make certain you get what you need (Sylvan, Tutor, Living Wish, etc.), you shouldn't have a problem.

We added more discard to help against the control match and quite frankly, doesn't matter what it is, if an opponent is playing control, this deck should finally have their number.

This deck houses all aggro (including pseudo-aggro Madness) and Goblins, which is almost an auto win. Play your Moat..err..Gamekeeper and smash face with an 11/11. You have enough discard to stop Logic nonsense. GG.

Against ATS, this is very favorable. Innocent Blood early Birds. Duress/Therapy early Survival. Deed to wipe the board. You should have a good matchup.

Burn is almost an auto win, because eventually they will run low on cards while you are discarding them left and right.

Burning Tog would be interesting. I haven't playtested it, so I'm not certain.

Angel Stompy is very favorable to you, as it plays like aggro. You have enough to stop them early on, and hold out for the W. But still a tough matchup.

Slay
04-20-2005, 07:53 PM
How does this deck beat aggro? Without Dark Rituals, you can't play Gamekeeper until turn 4, and by that time, aggro decks will have dealt 8-12 damage to you. And 11/11 is a 2 turn clock. You aren't killing anyone until turn 6 with this deck, unless you get a Dark Ritual and a Keeper in your hand. By turn 6, even the crappiest aggro deck should have you close to death or dead. In addition, it's not even close to a Moat. A moat stops attackers permanently. The Gamekeeper stops attackers until they feel like attacking, which, for an aggro deck, is as soon as they want to or the turn after you lay a Deed.

What's even so great about a Moat in the first place? Even Landstill barely plays it, and the reason for that is that Moats are slow as a tortoise with constipation taking a shit.

I sincerely think your view on the aggro matchup is severely over-optimistic I would strongly consider Chrome Moxen.
-Slay

lynxcat
04-20-2005, 08:08 PM
Quick question:
If you sac the Gamekeeper to flashback Therapy, your next creature should come into play before the Therapy resolves, right? Meaning that the other player can still respond by using StP or something else to remove Colossus. If I'm right then it's really only a minor drawback, but it's something to consider when playtesting. And of course if I'm wrong then I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

Rag Man
04-21-2005, 04:06 AM
How does this deck beat aggro? Without Dark Rituals, you can't play Gamekeeper until turn 4, and by that time, aggro decks will have dealt 8-12 damage to you. And 11/11 is a 2 turn clock. You aren't killing anyone until turn 6 with this deck, unless you get a Dark Ritual and a Keeper in your hand. By turn 6, even the crappiest aggro deck should have you close to death or dead. In addition, it's not even close to a Moat. A moat stops attackers permanently. The Gamekeeper stops attackers until they feel like attacking, which, for an aggro deck, is as soon as they want to or the turn after you lay a Deed.

What's even so great about a Moat in the first place? Even Landstill barely plays it, and the reason for that is that Moats are slow as a tortoise with constipation taking a shit.

I sincerely think your view on the aggro matchup is severely over-optimistic I would strongly consider Chrome Moxen.
-Slay
Wow.

I run 4 Innocent Blood.
I run 3 Pernicious Deed.
I run 3 Perish.
I run 3 Dystopia.
Your Gamekeepers are almost a shoe-in to halt an attack.

You discard out their hands to bring answers down to zero.
Yeah, I double Dark Ritual, Gamekeeper, Therapy, Collossus against aggro. Thats not turn six. It's a possible turn two. And with the amount of discard I play, that shouldn't be too much of an issue against control. Chrome Moxen is cute, but not good enough. Ritual is more than enough accel.


Your still living in October2004.format. The clock is pushed back. This deck's best matchup is against aggro, and I will wait to put up the numbers against it because I want to post all the deck results in one shot.

Aggro didn't fair well, sorry.

:punked:

Slay
04-21-2005, 09:09 AM
I run 4 Innocent Blood.
I run 3 Pernicious Deed.
I run 3 Perish.
I run 3 Dystopia.
Your Gamekeepers are almost a shoe-in to halt an attack.

What about red aggro? Perish does nothing to stop them, Deed and Gamekeeper, the only threats that don't mildly stop them, do nothing until turn 4 without Dark Ritual assistance. Even the gamekeepers won't do anything until the goblins player fels like attacking. And remember that even if you do get a Colossus, they still have two attack phases to win, three if they want to sacrifice a three-toughness blocker. Those are two attack phases where you're completely tapped out. And that's not even countign the times when you'll hit a Witness with your Gamekeeper and have to start all over again.


You discard out their hands to bring answers down to zero.
Yeah, I double Dark Ritual, Gamekeeper, Therapy, Collossus against aggro. Thats not turn six. It's a possible turn two. And with the amount of discard I play, that shouldn't be too much of an issue against control. Chrome Moxen is cute, but not good enough. Ritual is more than enough accel.

That's not a turn 2 win. That's a turn 2 fattie. It's actually a turn 4 win, or possibly a turn 5 if they have three toughness to spare. Even if you double Cabal Therapied, that's stil a lot of time for them to find Swords or whatever else they might desire, like 20 damage worth of burn spells.


Your still living in October2004.format. The clock is pushed back. This deck's best matchup is against aggro, and I will wait to put up the numbers against it because I want to post all the deck results in one shot.

Considering the sideboard, I'm assuming that you consider aggro to be comprised mostly of green-based decks, like SDZ, right? Even though straight burn and Goblin Sligh have fallen from popularity, they still represent a significant portion of the metagame, namely the kids that go 1-2 drop. The one win is when they play against decks like yours.

I'd like to see your results.
-Slay

Nazdakka
04-21-2005, 12:57 PM
This deck auto-wins against Solidarity...as you cannot deck me with Darksteel Colossus in the deck. It automatically gets shuffled back into my library, never hitting the graveyard.

No it doesn't auto-win, not if the Solidarity player has any kind of clue what they are doing. Stroke of Genius lurks in Solidarity's Cunning Wish SB for just such an occaision!

On a more general note, you are claiming that your deck beats everything... some hyperbole is fine, it's an exciting new deck. But what you've been saying feels kinda over the top - if I read an article claiming 70%+ against the entire field I will generally assume that something is wrong with the author's playtesting.

I see this: You have some discard, some creature kill, but you don't really do anything until turn 4 (barring Rituals). You also seem to have 'god-draw' syndrome in most of your matchup descriptions, in that all the hands you talk about seem to assume you get exactly the part of your deck that you need for each situation. Whether you like it or not, a turn 6 goldfish with a Sui-style discard skeleton seems unlikely to be fast enough to beat a decent aggro deck. You've also got to remember that you won't always have the mana you need to cast all of that. Gamekeeper isn't a Moat either. I suspect you will frequently find that aggro can just ignore it and keep going, and race your Colossus.

I'm curious to see your results too.

Rag Man
04-21-2005, 02:15 PM
This deck auto-wins against Solidarity...as you cannot deck me with Darksteel Colossus in the deck. It automatically gets shuffled back into my library, never hitting the graveyard.

No it doesn't auto-win, not if the Solidarity player has any kind of clue what they are doing. Stroke of Genius lurks in Solidarity's Cunning Wish SB for just such an occaision!

On a more general note, you are claiming that your deck beats everything... some hyperbole is fine, it's an exciting new deck. But what you've been saying feels kinda over the top - if I read an article claiming 70%+ against the entire field I will generally assume that something is wrong with the author's playtesting.

I see this: You have some discard, some creature kill, but you don't really do anything until turn 4 (barring Rituals). You also seem to have 'god-draw' syndrome in most of your matchup descriptions, in that all the hands you talk about seem to assume you get exactly the part of your deck that you need for each situation. Whether you like it or not, a turn 6 goldfish with a Sui-style discard skeleton seems unlikely to be fast enough to beat a decent aggro deck. You've also got to remember that you won't always have the mana you need to cast all of that. Gamekeeper isn't a Moat either. I suspect you will frequently find that aggro can just ignore it and keep going, and race your Colossus.

I'm curious to see your results too.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree and say that Gamekeeper is an attacking Moat. I have done playtetsing results for the last 3 and a half months over several builds and this is by far the best. I don't know how long you guys have been following it, so there you go. I'll wait until Sunday to post every single match result in the 1.5 tournament at Altered there. Our Team revamped the deck strategy and made it much more capable of winning, pending the results. I will post them on Sunday.
It does practically auto win versus Solidarity. I have so much discard in my deck backed up with an ass of Blessings and Collossi there is no chance in hell it wins more often than loses.
Well...referring to your comment about not being able to do anything until turn 4, you know, most combo decks in this new "exciting" format tend to like turn 4. And given the fact the supporting cast of discard and board control, I'll play my Gamekeeper (w/ Tutors, Library, Scrying, Whisper, Wish, etc.) when I'm good and ready.

It sounds to me like you guys are just reading the decklist for the first time which has been ultimately refined by myself and RaiderBob, and other comments before. I'd suggest being a little more patient and wait until I post the results of the deck rather than spit out comments that are pointless until I obviously have to prove them. Thanks.

There is also absolutely zero red aggro in Syracuse. People will occasionally play burn, but that is about all. The closest thing ro red aggro is Lacasse Survival, and he only really plays Shivan Wurm. And like I said, burn runs out of steam quick, pardon the pun. You see, for every creature that is played by an aggro deck, I pack a discard spell or Deed or Blood to handle the threat. Traditionally, anyone playing aggro tends to empty their hand out quickly. I have enough board control to handle those impending threats, and survive well into the combo.

Oh, and btw...there are no "God-draws" with H-Wood...I'm a mizer, beatch.

bigredmeanie
04-21-2005, 04:53 PM
I like this deck alot. Props for allt the work you have done. The only Thing that I see wrong with the deck is Darksteel colossus. I'm a big fan of Akroma and Spirit of the night. They don't tap to attack, which is a big deal against aggro. I guess there really isn't much of a difference between Colossus and Akroma/spirit of the night, they both get hit by sword, they both are 3 turn clock. Generally speaking the 6/6 fliers are harder to deal with. The only thing that I can see as problematic are spore frog locks. So in that case it turns into a race to see who get's set up first. Hopefully all the discard will put you over the top.

Raider Bob
04-21-2005, 05:10 PM
This deck has a very good match-up vs a lot of the current top decks.

Vs. Burn(To the Dome Burn) - This deck will win almost all the time. Just due to the hand control.

Vs. Goblins - It has a good matchup, the speed of the weenie critters makes it a little tuffer but if the deck gets past turn 3 it is a house.

Vs. Angel Stompy - STP is not your friend, this deck can put a fast enough clock on you where it can give you a headache.

Vs. Landstill - Definatly a tough Match-up, landstill can fight past the discard hate only needs to really worry about the DSC hitting the table.

Vs. Solidarity - DSC never gos to the graveyard or if it would it will be shuffled back in. With the amount of Discard available to this deck it gives Solidarity a tough time.

Vs. ATS - This is the toughest matchup by far, if survival hits the table you have to deal with Guilded Drake/Tradewind headache and ATS can set up fast enough where you need to rely on a deed to start over at 4+ land where this deck accells

Vs. Enchantress - This is the worst matchup for this deck. Enchantress puts a lot of permanats in play fast and draws a ton of cards a lot like ATS you really want a Deed and a lot of early discard to slow your opponent down.

The deck has some rough edges still, but it has shown in testing it can run with a lot of the teir 1 decks with some tweeking it has the potential to be fairly strong in any tournamnet.

MattH
04-21-2005, 05:30 PM
SotN taps to attack.

Rag Man
04-24-2005, 09:49 PM
Okay, considering this is in the contest and I played the deck today, I wanted to write up a report here about what happened and changes made to the deck. All in all, a very solid showing in its debut. There were 19 people for the tournament, cut to Top 4 playoffs and Top 4 prizes - 4 rounds of swiss.

Round 1: vs. Solidarity (unreg.)

Game 1: I am playing against my buddy Scott (Dirty) in the first round, which never really happens. But, at any rate, I win the die roll and decide to go first. I start the match off with a ton of discard, ripping his hand to shreds. I eventually get the Gamekeeper on the board. At this time, he has only 2 cards in his hand. I sacrifice the Gamekeeper via Cabal Therapy flashback. I mill down about 40 cards, and hit an Eternal Witness. An Eternal Witness. Wow. I basically did all his work for him, and I am Brain Freezed out the next turn.
Game 2: Alot like Game 1. I tear his hand apart early, and he eventually is down to like 2 cards in his hand. I get out Sylvan Library, and proceed to draw a ridiculous amount of cards, putting me at 1 life. He Brainstorms into High Tide, Reset, Meditate. He Brain Freezed me, and hit a Gaea's Blessing. In response to that trigger, he Brain Freezes me again. He hits another Blessing. In response to that trigger, he Freezes me again. Then, the unthinkable happens. The last three cards in my deck are Darksteel Collossus, Darksteel Collossus, and like Dark Ritual. In response during that particular
Brain Freeze, where the Collossus' triggered abilities went on the stack, he Words of Wisdomed me out, drawing into my death. We both marvel in the fact that the Collossi were back to back, and had they been in a seperate Brain Freeze three card mill, I would have won. Just bad luck.

Edit: I should have won the match - see later posts referring to Replacement Effects.

0-2 (0-1)

Round 2: vs. Burn (unreg.)

Game 1: He sends some early burn to the dome, but I drop the Gamekeeper, and he reads it, and doesn't want to kill it. I sacrifice to High Market and combo out.
Game 2: Same thing as Game 1. On turn 2, I Cabal Therapy 3 cards out of his hand. GG.

2-2 (1-1)

Round 3: vs. Bob.dec (Raider Bob)

Game 1: This would be a true test to my deck. Bob wins the die roll, and decided to go first. I mulligan down to six cards, and start the game off with not enugh disruption to gain an advantage over him, and Bob proceeded to win pretty handily with Fairie Conclave beatdown.
Game 2: I go first and tera Bob's hand apart. I establish board control, and have an answer for everything he throws at me, including Fire/Ice on a Scepter. I Naturalize it, and combo out by playing Gamekeeper and flashing back Therpaies to hit the Collossus. On the way to getting him, I make sure to name StP and his Mana Severance's to make certain there are no tricks up his sleeve. I win.
Game 3: I am pretty confident going into the last match, as I know I have alot of discard to back me up. Bob and I trade hits ffor a while, I knock a few cards out of his hand, and eventually cast a Therapy. I name Standstill, and miss. He proceeds to draw into a Standstill. WTF. So, from there on out, Bob steadily regained the upper hand and won the match, not before I put up a great fight.

3-4 (1-2)

Round 4: vs. Garv.dec (Trever, not sure what his name is on here)

Game 1: So, given the circumstances, I am kind of happy and upset to be where I am. I gave Bob's deck a big run for it's money, and should have beaten Solidarity. At any rate, I go first. I have an answer for all his creatures with Innocent Blood, and knock out cards from his hand left and right. I have Gamekeeper in hand, and he has a River Boa out. I can't draw into a land, and that little Boa goes a long way for the win.
Game 2: I combo out fast, and smash face. He was packing Swords, but I ripped his hand apart.
Game 3: This one was really good. After Trevor and I exchange the upper hand back and forth, we are both eventually in top-deck mode. Neither of us have a hand, and I have a High Market out. I top-deck Gamekeeper, and sacrifice it gaining a life. I hit another Gamekeeper, not before milling a Therapy. I flash it back, and hit a Collossus. Next turn he drops River Boa. I am low in life, and I swing putting him down to 5 life. I am at 6 life. He has River Boa out, and draws Giant Growth. He swings and Giant Growths the Boa, putting me at 1. I swing for the win next turn. A good match.

5-5 (2-2)

So, I go 2-2 in a 19 person tournament with the Game in it's debut. Peeps are thoroughly impressed, and we (Team Left Field) dissected the deck to find out what was wrong, which we found to be several main factors:

1. Living Wish. While its utility is great, and did retrieve removed items, it just wasn't as solid as it should be. The card was actually over-redundant, as we felt that there is enough discard in the deck to stop any messes this card would have to clean up in the first place. A good fit, but not good enough. We aren't quite sure yet what to replace these with.

2. The manabase for this deck was a little shaky. I didn't notice it at first, but started to once I was only getting aSwamp in my opening draw during at least 3 or 4 games. So, we make some changes about this problem in conjunction to problem number three.

3. The Eternal Wintesses. They served a great purpose, but became a problem when I Gamekeeper into one of them. It was an obvious problem from the start, and we all decided to send them packing from the maindeck into possibly the sideboard, if that at all. So, here are the changes we made to the deck:

- 1 Worldly Tutor
- 2 Eternal Witness
+ 1 Gamekeeper
+ 1 Polluted Delta
+ 1 Windswept Heath

After playtesting, this subtle change made all the difference in the world. I could actually draw land, and it worked really well. The sideboard definitely needs some adjustments, as I didn't have the cards before the tournament started. It just may have made all the difference in the world, because I would have been better prepared to handle things better. But, we all agree the deck is solid and should do much better next time. I played Garvey for fun beforehand, and beat him 3 out of 5 times with his own Garv.dec. So all in all, a very solid showing.

Slay
04-24-2005, 10:06 PM
Just to tell you, I'm pretty sure you should have won the Solidarity game. The text on DSC reads " If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead." That's a replacement, and those don't go on the stack. So technically, you shuld have won. Either that or decked out two turns later when you drew them.

And like I said, I really think this deck needs Chrome Moxen if you're concerned about the manabase.
-Slay

Rag Man
04-24-2005, 10:13 PM
We actually talked about that, Slay. We think it might work really well, especially against decks like Solidarity where cards like Deed become useless and pitchable to Mox. But after adding the fetchlands, the deck performed much better, and I was able to hit every land I needed. One of the biggest issues with Chrome Mox is the fact that you need to pitch a card from your hand, and almost every card in the deck, and more importantly your hand, is crucial to winning.
Alot of us sat down and discussed why we think the deck should be performed in a more conservative way. By playing conservative, we can better protect the combo. It plays alot like control. The deck is very resiliant, and gets stupid when I have Gamekeeper/Therapy combo online. As long as I have enough discard, which I do, then all is usually well.
As for again, the Moxen, I will consider it, and let you know the results. By the way, I do believe you're right about that against Solidarity, because it is a replacement effect, and does not go on the stack. Everyone told me otherwise, and we didn't have a judge there. So...in all reality the Game should have gone 3-1...beating Garv, Solidarity, and Burn...and earned a match win versus Bob.dec :cool:

*By the way...if that is true, what you said Slay (and I am almost certain it is, because even I questioned that when it happened and knew it sounded funny), then as long as a DSC is in my deck, I almost auto-win versus Solidarity.*

No_Life_No_Future
04-24-2005, 10:37 PM
Hey!

I was thinking about your kill condition and i had an epiphany.

Have you considered using the Auriok Salvager/LED combo?

You could use the gamekeeper to get out a Salvager and Led and spell bomb in yard and if you can muster up 1W you can win just like that......

Just an idea,

Will

Rag Man
04-24-2005, 10:41 PM
That would be for a totally different type of deck cool, and unfortunately my list is pretty tight as I do not have available slots open for alternate win conditions. Besides, the deck would become diluted if I added anohter combo like the Salvagers/LED one to it. But on its own, give it a try. :cool:

By the way, I found this here:

Replacement Effects - Not Triggered Abilities (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Darksteel%20Colossus)

Q: I have Scrabbling Claws in play. My opponent attacks with Darksteel Colussus (alone) and I play Wing Shards. Is there anytime that I can activate my Scrabbling Claws to remove Darksteel Colossus from the game, before it will be put into his library again by it's ability?

A: No. Darksteel Colossus has a replacement effect, not a triggered ability. It never gets to the graveyard. It's shuffled in to the library instead.

It's the same thing here, someone is trying to respond to the replacement effect of Darksteel Collossus...but they can't...because it's not a triggered ability. So, in the parallel to Solidarity, someone is trying to respond to the Replacement Effect, which is also a Continuous Effect, by casting Words of Wisdom. But the Collosuss' ability never goes on the stack, making it impossible to respond by decking me with Wisdom. It goes right back in.

cheeseman
04-25-2005, 03:14 PM
Nice find on Mask of the Mimic. Even though it seems that Blue is out of the deck for good, it's a card that I'll keep in mind for future reference.

But my real question is this: What kind of matchup does this have with Welder?

Slay
04-25-2005, 08:26 PM
*By the way...if that is true, what you said Slay (and I am almost certain it is, because even I questioned that when it happened and knew it sounded funny), then as long as a DSC is in my deck, I almost auto-win versus Solidarity.*
Not true at all. Even though it's shuffled in, you still can get down to 1 card in your deck, and deck out two turns later.

It would be correct to say that it gives you an extra few turns to win the game against Solidarity, unless you have Blessing, in which case you win, or they have Stroke + mana, in which case they win.
-Slay

Anonymous
04-25-2005, 09:56 PM
Why not Attrition? It may be a little expensive at 3cc but you can ritual for it first turn. You can sac the 'Keeper take out a BOP or other nonblack creature. Or what about Carrion? Puts a few chump blockers into play for 3cc maybe combo up with attrition to sac the tokens.

This is one of the better decks in the contest in my humble opinion. Good luck and I definatly want to apprentice this vs. Trinicide. PM me if you want to play.

Rag Man
04-26-2005, 11:00 AM
I do, Slay. He Meditated about 3 times and was at 6 life. I had 3 Gamekeepers on the table, and would have killed him the next turn. It might not auto win against Solidarity, but it is an extreme margin in favor of this deck.

We are also for everyone's information playtesting a card for the sideboard:

Ritual of the Machine (Alliances)
2BB
Sorcery
Sacrifice a creature to gain control of target non-black, non-artifact creature.

We figure in a creature-heavy environment it is always cool to gain control of creatures, but even cooler by sacrificing a Gamekeeper as well.

Slay
04-26-2005, 06:32 PM
I dislike that idea a lot. I mean, all your creature sac outlets disrupt your opponent first and formost, and have the bonus of killing off your gamekeeper. I would think that in a creature heavy environment, 6 creaturekill spells should be plenty, and taking them is just boring. What creatures would you honestly need to take? Tradewind Rider seems to be your biggest threat, and that is useless if you take it. I could potentially see this as good against reanimator, but Akroma > RotM. I could see this potentially having use vs. Sundering Titan, but that depends on you having mana after one hits and that they have no Welders untapped.

I really could only see this being used against Madness, where you really want their Waterfront Bouncer to not come online. but then again, the stack foils you, as they get to pop a Colossus to your hand before the RotM resolves. Or counter it.
-Slay

Raider Bob
04-26-2005, 08:08 PM
Living Wish needs to be replaced in this deck. The High Market and the Pyrexian Tower probably don't need to be in this deck either. So this would bring 2-4 deck slots to this deck.

Drawing the HighMarket Early can screw you hardcore if you do not draw into enough Black mana. Drawing the Tower can just plain suck unless you have a critter and By the time you hit a GameKeeper you should have a different Sac mechanism in play making the High Market and the Tower dead Cards in a lot of the instances you are drwing them. The mana base needs to be retooled a little bit.

New ManaBase With Color Anaylisis

#of Spells with a B in its casting cost - 26 Spells
#of Spells with a BB in its casting cost - 4 Spells
#of Spells with a G in its casting cost - 13 Spells
#of Spells with a BG in its casting cost - 3

#of land that produce B mana or fetch B mana - 15
#of land that produce G mana or fetch g mana - 15

What this quick anaylisis tells us is that we need a Turn 1 B mana to cast the early disruption we need. So we need to at least up the B mana count to 18 Sources to make this more viable. As we look at the Green Spells, 4 of the green spells cost 4 mana and 3 of the cost 3 mana w/ a b in the 3 mana's spells casting cost. So this is how to fix this problem without drastically changing the mana base.

-1 Pyrexian Tower
-1 High Market
-1 Forest
+3 Swamps

Now onto the issue of the living wish. When living wish is drawn it should just be a dead draw or a win more card. At no point should this card play a intrical part in this deck getting a W. Your wish targets are at Sorcery Speed and limited in their effectiveness. A different solution would be to increase the discard or critter control in the deck or a tutoring effect or more Draw. The best solution as of right now would just be to add +2 Nights Whisper. This will allow the card drawing engine a lot more consistancy and will get you to the all mighty Sylvan Library a lot faster. Other not so perfect choices could be Tendrils of Dispair, or Diabolic Tutor As both of these choices require a sac of a critter they are turn 5 slow and would be of little effect in the long haul. 2 Diabolic Edicts would also fit well in here but it is probably a metagame call and the card draw would be a supirior mechanic in almost every situation.

Anyway just my Two cents.
Peace

Rag Man
04-26-2005, 08:48 PM
Bob is quite right - every not so often, I am caught with having a High Market or Phyrexian Tower in my opening hand. However, because of the various ways to obtain outlets to sacrifice Gamekeeper (which is never a problem), High Market is actually better than Phyrexian Tower. A few more Swamps would certainly help.

In regards to the Living Wish discussion, I actually did before Bob posted add 2 more Night's Whisper to the maindeck. I must say, it was quite the idea. I was able to draw cards when I needed to, and it helped out alot. Living Wish was a contigency card, but as I said earlier, with all the discard and disrupt the deck plays, you shouldn't need that to clean up the mess when you have decimated their hand.

And about the Solidarity matchup, if I keep a nice full hand of seven cards, with a Collossus hanging out in the deck, I'll just keep discarding it, and drawing it, and discarding it, etc. etc. It's a very favorable matchup to begin with, anyways.

Other than those issues at hand, the sideboard is what I am working on as of right now. Ritual of the Machine was just a quick idea, and obviously won't be added. It is really a metagame-based board, because the deck is already combo-based and shouldn't be tampered with with cards in the sideboard that could potentially hamper the deck's strategy. It is very strong right now.


Gamekeeper/Therapy combo for life. :angry:

martyr
04-27-2005, 02:46 PM
So, it seems that the only reason you're keeping Colossus in the deck is for the Solidarity match-up? If you were playing the deck in an environment with little/no Solidarity, would something like Akroma, Platinum Angel, Phantom Nishoba, Scion of Darkness, Plated Slagwurm, or Sundering Titan be better?

Also, how many games have you played against disruption-heavy decks? I can see the U splash for Brainstorm being VERY useful there, even if it's just for the one card. The splash would be relatively easy to do, also, as you'd just put in 4x Trops for 4x Forests and 4x Underground Seas for 4x Swamps. Maybe they could replace the Worldly Tutors?

What about the random 1x Skeletal Scrying? Has that been replaced by Night's Whispers yet or should that be nudged aside by Brainstorm also? Are Living Wishes still in your deck, or just not as a 4-of any more?

EDIT: Oh, and would Quiet Speculation be good in this? I'm not familiar with how the games against control go, but that could be invaluable in taking a game from them (go for 2x Therapy, 1x Deep Analysis or somesuch nonsense).

Rag Man
04-27-2005, 08:16 PM
So, it seems that the only reason you're keeping Colossus in the deck is for the Solidarity match-up? If you were playing the deck in an environment with little/no Solidarity, would something like Akroma, Platinum Angel, Phantom Nishoba, Scion of Darkness, Plated Slagwurm, or Sundering Titan be better?

Also, how many games have you played against disruption-heavy decks? I can see the U splash for Brainstorm being VERY useful there, even if it's just for the one card. The splash would be relatively easy to do, also, as you'd just put in 4x Trops for 4x Forests and 4x Underground Seas for 4x Swamps. Maybe they could replace the Worldly Tutors?

What about the random 1x Skeletal Scrying? Has that been replaced by Night's Whispers yet or should that be nudged aside by Brainstorm also? Are Living Wishes still in your deck, or just not as a 4-of any more?

EDIT: Oh, and would Quiet Speculation be good in this? I'm not familiar with how the games against control go, but that could be invaluable in taking a game from them (go for 2x Therapy, 1x Deep Analysis or somesuch nonsense).
Check out previous posts for this deck . Your assumption is 100 percent incorrect: DSC is in the deck because he wins matches and is the best beater in the format. The fact that he shuffles back into my library is rather irrelevant, but does help in the matchup against Solidarity. His benefits far surpass any of the other bigger creatures in the format. His clock is only 2 turns...others are more like 3-4. And, half the creatures you named do not trample and do minimal damage.

Blue is awful in this deck, because it dilutes the tempo the deck presses - fast paced and aggressive. The only reason to play this deck conservative is to protect the combo, which isn't too hard given the majority of disrupt it posesses.

Brainstorm is practically useless in this deck, because why would I want to draw three cards once when I do it every turn with Sylvan Library and the Worldy Tutors get me what I need, no questions asked.

Quiet Speculation...for what? The Gamekeeper's have the built in ability of milling Therapies out, or I just draw one and use it.

Nazdakka
04-28-2005, 11:32 AM
So, it seems that the only reason you're keeping Colossus in the deck is for the Solidarity match-up? If you were playing the deck in an environment with little/no Solidarity, would something like Akroma, Platinum Angel, Phantom Nishoba, Scion of Darkness, Plated Slagwurm, or Sundering Titan be better?


Check out previous posts for this deck . Your assumption is 100 percent incorrect: DSC is in the deck because he wins matches and is the best beater in the format. The fact that he shuffles back into my library is rather irrelevant, but does help in the matchup against Solidarity. His benefits far surpass any of the other bigger creatures in the format. His clock is only 2 turns...others are more like 3-4. And, half the creatures you named do not trample and do minimal damage.

Not true. DSC is a 3 turn clock. 1 turn for him to be summoning sick in and 2 turns of beatings, assuming no chump blockers. Akroma is usually also a 3 turn clock - it's usually possible to deal a couple of points with Gamekeeper or their own fetchlands, and Akroma is much harder to buy turns against by chumping. I'm not saying DSC is definitely a wrong choice, but saying he's a 2 turn clock is factually incorrect. Also, you haven't gone over this before, so telling Martyr to 'check out previous posts' is a little misleading :P


And about the Solidarity matchup, if I keep a nice full hand of seven cards, with a Collossus hanging out in the deck, I'll just keep discarding it, and drawing it, and discarding it, etc. etc. It's a very favorable matchup to begin with, anyways.

We've been over this already, and that trick isn't effective. Solidarity can and usually does kill you with Words of Wisdom or Stroke of Genius once it has emptied your library. I'm not arguing that all the discard doesn't hurt Solidarity, but saying that the draw to 8->discard DSC play is a significant help is IMO a gross distortion. Anyway, if you DO try to keep a full hand of 7 cards, and so don't use your massed discard to disrupt Solidarity, that's a really bad play becauase they can and will combo straight over you and then deck you with their Stroke/Words regardless of DSC. Playing out your discard spells and so going below 7 seems a like much wiser course of action.

martyr
04-28-2005, 12:34 PM
I wasn't advocating the use of Brainstorm as a card-drawing engine, I was saying it's an excellent way to protect the combo early on, and is never dead.

But please, flame me instead of answering questions. I mean, whatever's easiest, by all means.

Raider Bob
04-28-2005, 03:18 PM
Cabal Ritual: The flashback was brought up earlier in the thread. What happens first the Gamekeeper Trigger or the Cabal Therapy resolution.

Flashback is the casting cost of the spell you are simply satisfying the spells casting cost by flashing back Gamekeeper. So the trigger will go off after the therapy resolves. A level 2 Judge says it works this way, I am trying to find a ruling online but SCG seems to be down and well I am not really a rules laywer but if the timing works this way this deck just made a huge jump in how good it is.

Rag Man
04-28-2005, 03:30 PM
We've been over this already, and that trick isn't effective. Solidarity can and usually does kill you with Words of Wisdom or Stroke of Genius once it has emptied your library. I'm not arguing that all the discard doesn't hurt Solidarity, but saying that the draw to 8->discard DSC play is a significant help is IMO a gross distortion. Anyway, if you DO try to keep a full hand of 7 cards, and so don't use your massed discard to disrupt Solidarity, that's a really bad play becauase they can and will combo straight over you and then deck you with their Stroke/Words regardless of DSC. Playing out your discard spells and so going below 7 seems a like much wiser course of action.
Duress...x4

Cabal Therapy...x4

Hymn to Tourach...x4

DSC...x2




Solidarity loses.

Nazdakka
04-28-2005, 04:06 PM
We've been over this already, and that trick isn't effective. Solidarity can and usually does kill you with Words of Wisdom or Stroke of Genius once it has emptied your library. I'm not arguing that all the discard doesn't hurt Solidarity, but saying that the draw to 8->discard DSC play is a significant help is IMO a gross distortion. Anyway, if you DO try to keep a full hand of 7 cards, and so don't use your massed discard to disrupt Solidarity, that's a really bad play becauase they can and will combo straight over you and then deck you with their Stroke/Words regardless of DSC. Playing out your discard spells and so going below 7 seems a like much wiser course of action.
Duress...x4

Cabal Therapy...x4

Hymn to Tourach...x4

DSC...x2




Solidarity loses.
Have you actually read what I wrote?

Rag Man
04-28-2005, 04:32 PM
I did, and it's definitely true, and cool. I mean, the whole issue that is left to be truly discussed with the deck now before it is optimized is the remaining card slots myself and Raider Bob went over after the last tournament. We found that High Market was only minimal in its effectiveness, and Phyrexian Tower is EXTREMELY situational. Either way you cut the cake, it'll throw my deck off because of the colorless mana they produce. So, here are some of the changes we made to the deck:

- 2 High Market (Must have put one more in somehow...oops)
- 1 Phyrexian Tower
+1 Worldly Tutor
+2 Swamps

This should smooth the base/curve action beautifully, and the addition of one more Wordly Tutor I find is essential in actually finding the Keeper (which isn't the least bit of a problem), or stacking Collossus on top of the library. Other than that, it's running beautifully and we'll see what happens this Sunday.

:angry: HWood

Ewokslayer
04-28-2005, 04:50 PM
Cabal Ritual: The flashback was brought up earlier in the thread. What happens first the Gamekeeper Trigger or the Cabal Therapy resolution.

Flashback is the casting cost of the spell you are simply satisfying the spells casting cost by flashing back Gamekeeper. So the trigger will go off after the therapy resolves. A level 2 Judge says it works this way, I am trying to find a ruling online but SCG seems to be down and well I am not really a rules laywer but if the timing works this way this deck just made a huge jump in how good it is.
The first thing you do is announce Cabal therapy.
Cabal therapy goes on the stack,
Then you pay its costs sacrificing a creature (in this case Gamekeeper)
Gamekeeper goes to the graveyard triggering its ability.
Gamekeeper's ability goes on the stack

Gamekeeper's ability resolves then Cabal therapy.

It works just like a yavimaya elder, you search for the land then draw a card.

Rag Man
04-28-2005, 06:34 PM
Here is the up-to-date deck list for:

"The Game"
by "Hollywood" Mike Keller - 4/28/05

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
2 Worldly Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying

//2cc
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Night's Whisper
2 Sylvan Library

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land
7 Swamp
5 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath

//Sideboard
4 Perish
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt

As you can see, the newer, more powerful version of this deck has some recent additions in both the main deck and sideboard.

+2 Night's Whisper
With the addition of several more Night's Whisper, my card draw has improved vastly. Another neat aspect is that if I see cards coming up from a Sylvan Library that I do not need at that particular moment, I can always Whisper and draw those cards (paying 2 life to draw 2 cards is much better than paying 8 life to draw 2 cards). Sylvan Library, still, remains a key component to the deck, allowing me to basically scrye every turn and draw cards when need be.

+4 Chains of Mephistopheles
This particular card single handidly wrecks decks like Enchantress and Solidarity. At two mana, I can Ritual, Duress, Chains against decks like those and be in great condition. Even so, the card is devastating against any deck which relies on heavy card draw. So, with the vast amount of discard the deck posesses, this is the nail in the coffin.

+1 Worldy Tutor
With the recent removal of Living Wish, the addition of one more Tutor is critical in allowing me to search for my win condition or stack the top of my library if I have to.

-1 High Market, -1 Phyrexian Tower, +2 Swamp
This has become instrumental in how the deck performs. You see, obviously an opening hand consisting of discard (i.e. Hymn) is wonderful for the deck, and happens more often than not. But myself along with the rest of Left Field decided that there is enough sacrificial mechanisms in the deck that these would only hamper the mana structure.

+1 Perish
Even though this card existed in the sideboard previously, it is almost scary to think that it serves a twisted duel purpose in a deck which needs to kill off a green creature anyways (kill all their creatures, and yours, and you are rewarded an 11/11 indestructible monster).

Hope these explanations helped some. I am really proud and thankful alot of you appreciate the deck.

HWood :angry:

Peter_Rotten
04-28-2005, 07:42 PM
Well, I just did some testing with Sims. BTW, Hollywood thanks for posting the new list right when I started testing with him [glare] .

I playd against Vial Goblins and went 3-3. The games really came down to if I could get a Keeper or not. Turn 2 Keeper is hot against goblins, but ending games with hands like Ritual/Ritual/Colossus is not. The games were pretty "swingy." I chained into all 3 of my extra Keepers in one game and won with no cards in my library. Sorta lucky. My brief analyis = the deck has possible explosive hands, but can crap out in bad way. The game against aggro may be a little overestimated.

Sims
04-28-2005, 08:12 PM
Also note, in 2 of the 3 games he won I topdecked land with warchief on the table both games with already having 4+ mana sources on the table. Had I gotten a Ringleader or Matron I could have easily played beats, taken the first DSC swing, then either won (his life was below 10 both games) or decked him in the last game.

This isn't to say I should have won, but just something that I felt was noteworthy as I could have won two of those three.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1115072312

Rag Man
04-28-2005, 08:20 PM
Well, I just did some testing with Sims. BTW, Hollywood thanks for posting the new list right when I started testing with him [glare] .

I playd against Vial Goblins and went 3-3. The games really came down to if I could get a Keeper or not. Turn 2 Keeper is hot against goblins, but ending games with hands like Ritual/Ritual/Colossus is not. The games were pretty "swingy." I chained into all 3 of my extra Keepers in one game and won with no cards in my library. Sorta lucky. My brief analyis = the deck has possible explosive hands, but can crap out in bad way. The game against aggro may be a little overestimated.
Hey, no problem Matt! :;):

Anyways, allow me to drink my beer here and explain a few things:

One of the really cool things this deck can do is create a chain of Therapy/Keeper until you hit a Collossus. It is very effective, and more often than not, wins you the game. It is true, however, that most games come down to whether or not you can get a Gamekeeper out or not, because the deck revolves around that card. But, there is a supporting cast of hand disruption and board removal where you can stall until you get him out and win. There are enough search spells where that won't be a problem. I have milled down several times with just a few cards left in my deck, and won those games. Syracuse is not a Goblin heavy meta, so I don't particularly worry about that matchup. It is, however, infested with aggro-based decks such as Madness and Garv. Decks like those I know I have a good match against, and defeated them in tournament play.

In reference to the aggro matchup, it is a really good match. The deck actually poses a bigger threat against control with all the hand disrupt you play. Aggro is the biggest problem, and that is why the Innocent Bloods and Deeds become very instrumental in how the deck performs. But bottom line is, most other decks in the format, including aggro-based ones, depend on a particular card(s) to make things happen for them (i.e. Madness-Mongrel/Moeba, Goblins-Lackey, Solidarity-Meditate/High Tide, etc.). This deck is no exception. The 4 Perish post-SB are devastating to SDZ, Garv, and ATS. While it is true they can recover, and sometimes do, I have a good amount of board control with hand disruption that I should keep them down until I combo-out. Remember, the deck is played conservative, not aggressive. Understand that you must protect the combo before comboing out (like most combo decks). Perhaps the deck can use some more creature control cards, or even an additional Worldly Tutor for support. The deck needs more tournament play to prove its efficiency...and this Sunday will be instrumental in explaining how the deck not only performs, but what further changes can be made to optimize it. This is a deck which wins by chaining through your library into an 11/11 indestructible creature, and on the way you name cards which will potentially hurt you. THAT is why if you cast Gamekeeper, flashback a Therapy and then hit another Gamekeeper, that is awesome...because it allows you to protect the Collossus by naming StP or another potentially bad card for the deck by making them discard it on the way to hitting the Collossus. Against decks like Goblins, an additional Deed or possibly Infest in the sideboard would help tremendously in the right metagame.

At any rate, the deck is 3-1 in official tournament play, so that is kinda cool for its inaugural tourney. I also took Bob.dec to the limit, so like I said, Sunday we will see if the changes will have helped, which I know they have through playtesting.

And...for future reference...no win is lucky...if a deck is built to win and does (whether or not you have no cards left in your library), then it did its job. This is a deck which particularly will be low on cards (obviously) by the time you win more often than not. So, even though there were no cards left in the deck...you won. :cool:

Rag Man
05-02-2005, 05:42 PM
The sideboard now has some extremely important changes made to it, based on playtesting results:

-1 Chains of Mephistopheles
-1 Naturalize
-1 Perish
+3 Cranial Extraction

In playtesting, I have found that the deck's number one weakness is the topdeck. Once Collossus hits the board, it sets a clock up for the opponent. And while you play more than enough discard to hamper an in-hand StP or some other removal spell, you generally lose to a top-decked Swords. Therefore, it was the general consensus to subtract several of these sideboard cards and include Cranial Extraction to deal with the threat of Swords to Plowshares, Humility, etc. There is already Naturalize and Deed to deal with enchantment/artifact threats on the board, and Extraction will remove the other removal spells for good. I have found that the card works well, and against decks like Landstill/Bob.dec/etc., you would take out Innocent Bloods and such against decks lacking creatures and board these in. There is even a merit of consideration that would place 1 Cranial Extraction main-deck...but would like to know what everyone else thinks.

*Picked up 4 Foil Cabal Therapies to help pimp out the deck today...wooo!

TeenieBopper
05-02-2005, 07:08 PM
I know I suggested this to you last night, but I figured I'd throw it out there to everyone else. What about Lightning Greaves? Probably in the Hymn slot? This way you don't have something competing with your 4 drop slot (ie Gamekeeper). I figure there's only three cards that really bother you- counterspell, stp, and stifle. All of which Duress and Cabal Therapy take care of rather nicely.

Rag Man
05-02-2005, 07:30 PM
I totally forgot that Mike..thanks for reminding me...

What does everyone think about Lightning Greaves?

Rhapsody in Pink
05-02-2005, 11:01 PM
I am of the digging of Lightning Greaves, but I really don't like dropping Hymn for it. Unless you do chain Keepers, the 'equip as a sorcery' clause looks to hurt you a bit, and I'd rather have a heavier disruption package than some resistence to topdecking.

Brushwagg
05-03-2005, 12:09 AM
I'd say at least test the Lightning Greaves. As TB only a few cards really screw you. STP being number 1. I hear a 11/11 trampler that can't be destroyed and targeted with haste is a good thing. :)

Another option could be, to a lesser degree is Dragon Breath. Not to cast but if you mill it, when DSC shows he will have haste. This could get around that random topped deck STP.

One other thing? Are you playing this on the 8th?

Rag Man
05-03-2005, 01:39 AM
If it's the 7th you mean...at Amrod's...

Then yes. I am playing the Game.

Brushwagg
05-03-2005, 12:17 PM
Oops.... Ya thats what I meant. It was late and I worked like 14 hours. I look forward to playing this against this deck. I want to really see how well it stacks up to U/G Madness.

Rag Man
05-03-2005, 12:24 PM
Definitely man. U/G Madness is one of this deck's hardest challenges. But the one thing that helps out alot despite the Madness mechanic is the discard. Knocking the Logics/FoW out early can spell trouble for an opponent if they are trying to back up a single outlet. However, there are times where I do not start the game off with discard, but rather perhaps a few Innocent Bloods or a Deed. In this instance, it is a race, like PR said. But, against a combo deck, that is how the game is played anyways.

It should be a good match...hope to play you on the 7th!


HWood :angry:

Rag Man
05-08-2005, 06:51 AM
Just as a sidenote...I didn't do so hot with the Game yesterday, May 9th. I managed to defeat Solidarity, which is totally cool, but almost every other round I played in was a game 3, last turn loss. So, to correct this problem, Raider Bob and myself have made MASSIVE adjustments to the deck. I will post them this afternoon when I am done with the tournament today. I am really tired from going downtown....(by the way, for those who watch WWE we saw Mohammud Hasan, Navari, and Chris Masters at the Matrix. They were passing through Syracuse for a show in Elmira today. I was being really polite talking to them, not wanting to bother them very much. I had mentioned to them that my friends call me "Hollywood". Very cool...especially when Chris "The Masterpiece" Masters said at the end of the conversation, "Is it Hollywood? Hollywood...your awesome."

:O :O :O

Raider Bob
05-08-2005, 11:05 AM
As all decks are generally viewed on how many W's they get you this deck fell slightly short yesterday. With loss however usually comes great insight.

Facts:

Hollywood took every opponent to a game 3. A feat that some 'proven decks' can not even say.

Hollywood got some real test playing in where he could analyse the short commings and the strengths of the deck.

Tho some of the changes that were made maybe radical and change the direction of 'The Game' the basic concept is still the same.

20/60 cards were changed in the curent build. the change is more control and less combo, generating more reactive cards with the proactive cards. The new version is more stable and not as reliant on comboing out as soon as possible. Hollywood will post tthe results and updated decklist later after the 1.5 today.

Rag Man
05-08-2005, 11:11 PM
Here is the new version of The Game that Team Left Field has put together. We feel as though this version of the deck is more solid, plays more like control (than the previous build), and maintains a very good grasp on board control. The deck has a makeover, so with that in mind, here is the new version of The Game with explanations of card choices and why we feel they are appropriate. The changes are a direct result of the May 7th tournament and are based upon playtesting with the Syracuse crew.

"The Game"
by Hollywood & Team Left Field
5-8-05

//1cc
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lose Hope

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
3 Regrowth
3 Naturalize
2 Sylvan Library

//3cc
4 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//8cc
3 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Colossus

//Land
9 Swamp
8 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
3 Revelation
3 Perish
3 Coffin Purge
3 Execute
3 Choke


Card Explanations - "Post May 7th...The New Game"

+4 Lose Hope
One of the things I was very upset about the performance of this deck on May 7th and in playtesting was the battle against aggressive decks. I tend to be hurt by their speed, and cannot recover fast enough. This little gem in playtesting has served several critical purposes. One is to off early threats, as well as Birds and other fast mana-producers. The other is the amazing Scrye ability instilled on the card. This deck loves Scrye, as I am able to manipulate my draw...which is essential in drawing the right cards at the right time. Pair those with the fact it is a 1cc instant, and it is amazing

+3 Regrowth
Far too often in tournament play and playteting, I always wish I had an answer sitting in my graveyard. This former-banned green retrieval spell is particularly outstanding in this deck. Eternal Witness, while amazingly effective, is also a creature and costs one more to cast. In this deck, that does not fly. In playtesting, Therapy, Duress, Regrowth, Therapy...was devastating. Also, retrieving a lost GameKeeper is good too. Always was good...and still is.

+3 Naturalize
Against particular decks, this card is a house. One of the most important things I noticed about the May 7th tournament was the vast amount of Survival decks that placed. This card stops alot of potent decks in the current environment, and knocks off Factories as well. Kills the Crucible, and hurts Enchantress. Fear the green Disenchant.

+1 Pernicious Deed
When I found myself down and out, I was always praying for a Pernicious Deed. It is the ultimate board sweeper, is cheap to cast, and can be another game-winning card. It single-handidly beats almost everything in the environment, and is a critical card in how this deck performs.

+3 Decree of Pain
One of the funniest things about this card is that I obviously would never hard-cast it unless I really needed to. It is like a black WoG, and draws me a card. It kills Troll. It stops onslaughts of weenies. In playtesting, especially against LandStill, it is a good killer against manlands and, like I said, stopped the horde of Elves/Wallas/Birds/Survival dudes.

+1 Polluted Delta
With the subtraction of dual lands and black being the most prominent color in the deck wielding at least several BB spells, the Delta is more critical to draw over the Heath at a given moment in time.

+3 Revelation
I have always been a fan of this card, but today, I truly love it. This card is specifically boarded in against control variants. I can play it turn one, and hope to milk a Force (if they want to). Then, I will be able to Therapy knowing what is in their hand, and combo out when the time is right. At one mana to cast an enchant world (with the ever-so kick ass irrelevant artwork) and a permanent spying mechanism, I ultimately do not care what my opponent sees in my hand over his, because mine is combo and they're out to stop it.

+3 Coffin Purge
Truly a great card, especially i na deck which can technically tutor for them when I mill through my library. Boarded in against decks revolving around the graveyard...more specifically, Survival based decks.

+3 Execute
At three mana, this instant speed white creature killer is essential in the matchup against Angel Stompy. I kill their Angel and draw a card for my troubles. Super tekky, and very useful over other main-deck cards that serve a similar, specifically devastating purpose.

+3 Choke
Against Solidarity, control, or random BBS, this card is devastating. I wouldn't hesitiate to play all three when Game 1 is over against Solidarity and choke them out. A very, very solid sideboard card which beats out Tsunami because of its permanent and cheaper to cast efficiency.

After a thorough amount of playtesting, the deck runs much more solid against creature based decks because of its new control-like aura. The deck's fundamental quality is still the same, it is just now the deck plays more reactive than proactive. The card choices above were based on tournament play and playtesting. The deck is extremely solid right now, and the list is very tight. Team Left Field has worked diligently on making this deck a winner...and I am proud to say it placed in the Creat a Deck contest.

Hope the explanations helped!

~HWooD~ :angry:

umbowta
05-09-2005, 12:54 PM
I'm very glad to see Innocent Blood dropped from the list. It was a completely dead draw once DSC was out, and removal of potential blockers was important to winning in a timely fashion. I cut them for Diabolic Edict, and I'm currently using Infest over Decree of Pain for lack of ownership of the latter.

Congrats on placing in the contest. The originality and 'fun' factors alone merited top ten placement. Top five because the deck has... Game.

Raider Bob
05-09-2005, 02:21 PM
In the re-tooling of this deck, Hollywood after a sound beating on the seventh was like...

"The deck needs some changes. I took all my opponents to game three and just didn't have that extra umph to get the win."

So after some dinner where we talked about the deck we made some dramatic changes.

@Discard - Hollywood felt that early hand disruption was awesome but late the hymns were a dead draw as your opponent had no hand. This - of Hymns made the manabase more managable so they were the first victum

@Dark Ritual - With much resistance from Hollywood this was my first cut. Reving up mana is nice turn 1 or turn 2 but turn 3 on it is generally not a issue. I felt Hollywood needed to slow the deck down if he wanted to give it a more control feel.

@Critter Control - Innocent blood was not the right call so we started to brainstorm about what some of the issues were in the deck. Getting a Gamekeeper was very important, and the deck got hurt by weenies(Goblin Lacky, Basking Rootwalla, Rofellos...)So we were like what is the Black Scry card?? after some looking we find lose hope, a very janky but very usefull in this deck.

@Naturalise - I have never liked Discenchant maindecked but I felt that it was important here for a lack of countermagic it also give 3 ez board cards for a lot of match-ups.

@Decree of Pain - I am still not sold on this card, as the cycling is 5 mana and the hard count is 8 mana, however in playtesting cycling off manlands and weenie hoards has proven the shiznat.

@Bayou - Hollywood is adamant about nixing the dual lands. More games were lost on the 7th from a early wasteland and the feeling that he needed to ramp upto hymn/therapy mana fast.

@Polluted Delta vs Heath - Black mana turn 1 is still important. so the +1 Polluted is fairly major.

@Sylvan Library - On the bubble to be kept or cut. The lose hope Scry/Nights Whisper is feeling like it is a better call for deck fixing. With that said Sylvan is usually the Bane of most control decks. A replacement for this maybe Dragons blood?? the white enchantment that when a critter of a casting cost of more than 6 CIP it hops out of the yard and grants haste. The idea was tossed at us at Amrods and this would be the best place for it if we implement it.

@The board - Exaulted Angel is bad for this deck, so Executes are tekky. Revelation, Revelation, um Revelation. This is really a slot that just has synergy with the way this combo plays. Brainstorm 'tricks', do I need to milk a counter out, what do I name with Therapy, should I duress now. As the deck see's more playtime this card will probably just get shot down. As of right now it is not a horrible call.

Rag Man
05-09-2005, 02:47 PM
Thanks Bob for backing up alot of points. To reiterate on something previously mentioned:

Revelation (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/LG/Revelation.html)

After a long conversation about this card, Bob and I sat down and looked at how this card would benefit from being played against the control/possibly combo matchup:

1. It is one casting-cost, making it cheap to cast.

2. It is an Enchant World, so it stays online.

3. I generally do not care if my opponent sees my hand, because I usually play cards to disrupt their hand and they know I'm packing combo anyways, so I'm not concerned about them seeing my hand. I am, however, sold on the fact that in general, most decks packing heavy Islands and Jedi mind-tricks would not like me to pull a Professor X on their asses. So that is why at one mana to stay in play, this card is Uber-Tech in this particular deck.

4. I know what to Therapy for, what to Duress for, know when to combo out, know what they are Brainstorming into, know if they have StP, etc. Sure, I'll know this anyways if I cast these cards...but I like to keep my opponent in check, and I like knowing most importantly when to combo out.

Hope some of these comments help reflect upon an old Legends Enchant World seeing the light of day eleven years later.

On to other issues:

Dual Lands are no longer needed in this deck. I already have fetch-lands, so thinning out the deck is not an issue. Wasteland, however, was. Remember, this deck is combo/control. And one of the most important things with combo...is protecting it. And by nixing duals, I don't have to worry about Wasteland and my opponent now has dead cards against me AND my mana base isn't going to be advertly affected. These changes make the deck much more consistent.

Also, Sylvan Library is eventually going to be nixed. Yes, it is a house against control. But so is Duress, Cabal Therapy, Revelation, Regrowth, Night's Whisper, Scrye, and Decree. I think the Sylvan's are just overkill given the vast amount of library manipulation the deck already posesses. So, now the question arises:

If there are two slots available...

Slay
05-09-2005, 04:30 PM
One thing I'm wondering now that the deck is essentially The Rock with a combo win is the lack of Living Wish. I would think those shoudl be useful again, perhaps as a two-of or a three-of to search out cards like Plague Spitter, Witness, Zealot, or Spiritmonger. But most importantly, it could fetch out Volrath's Stronghold, which is so obscenely awesome and ridiculous against control decks.
-Slay

Rag Man
05-09-2005, 05:34 PM
One thing I'm wondering now that the deck is essentially The Rock with a combo win is the lack of Living Wish. I would think those shoudl be useful again, perhaps as a two-of or a three-of to search out cards like Plague Spitter, Witness, Zealot, or Spiritmonger.

This deck is more control than combo, and there are enough maindeck answers now to things that would have caused problems before, rendering Living Wish not as useful as before. I Living Wish, get what I need, then have to wait a turn to essentially cast it. Plus, it would inhibit my direction towards protecting my combo...now I'd be stalling out. This deck is not the Rock. Similar on paper, but that's about it.


it could fetch out Volrath's Stronghold, which is so obscenely awesome and ridiculous against control decks.

That is definitely true...but I play a deck that packs six creatures, two of which never go to the graveyard and the other four being removed from the game when they die and/or StP'd if I lack Therapy in the yard. Not good in this deck.

Brushwagg
05-10-2005, 12:06 PM
The card Raider Bob is talking about is Dragon's Breath. I'm the one that threw it out to you guys. :D
Anyway my point is that Hollywood you were saying STP or a really good top decks hurts. I don't think DB will totally solve the problem, but instead of giving the opponent 2 looks at the top card, give him/her only 1. That would greatly increase your odds of winning. Basically the way your decks runs right now it is a 3 turn kill once DSC shows up, DB speeds it up by a whole turn and if they do top deck a STP next turn they are at or around 9. so the next DSC plus DB = GG. :)

Rag Man
05-10-2005, 12:14 PM
Yeah, I was definitely looking at Dragon Breath. I haven't playtested it yet, but the whole problem with it is that it is another dead draw if I pluck a Darksteel Colossus as well. The Colossi are the only real dead draws in the deck, so if I get that in my hand too, it would be the same. However, it would speed the clock up by a turn.
TB also suggested Lightning Greaves for the deck. We playtested it, and found that it didn't work as well as we thought it would. It works okay against certain decks, but more often than not it just became a dead draw when I had nothing when I had more important things to cast at 2cc. I still consider it helpful, however...just like the Dragon's Breath.
We are considering the removal of Lose Hope as well. It is a very tekky card in the deck, and works quite well. However, the issue of it becoming a dead draw is becoming a reality more and more through playtesting. Against heavy creature/aggro based decks, it's a house. Against most other decks, it is a dead draw. We are trying to maximize every card slot, so we are looking into other solutions as I write this. I'll post a new deck list sometime soon....with playtesting results as well!

~HWooD~ :angry:

Hoojo
05-10-2005, 04:41 PM
This may be a little much, but Last Rites might be a decent addition, maybe as a 2 of, there by replacing Sylvan Library. It would allow you to discard drawn Darksteel Colossusi, lend to the control strategy, and get rid of excess Gamekeepers.

I really like this deck; I'm putting the pieces together myself and I'm going to start playing it. I'll let you know how it does.

FakeSpam
05-11-2005, 12:56 PM
Not that I want to ruin you day or anything, but, I don't really think you need to be playing Revelation. First off, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't impact the game state in any way. You will know what is in your opponent's hand from:

1)playing well.
2)duress.
3)cabal therapy.

It's extra slots, and it's completely useless. Something like unmask or blackmail might be an overall better choice. If you absolutely insist on running a sub-par card to view your opponent's hand, play glasses of urza instead. You don't give any information up to them that way.

Rag Man
05-11-2005, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I hear what your saying Alex...right now we're playtesting different cards to see how they fit into the overall scheme of things. Revelation is a good fit simply based on what it does fundamentally, and there are obviously other cards in the deck which serve the same purpose sort of...like Cabal Therapy and Duress. Cards like those would render Revelation useless, but the only reason we included it is to keep an eye on anopponent's hand to know when to combo out. The card was never intended on staying, just playtested.

Brushwagg
05-12-2005, 09:32 PM
I just finished putting together The Game. Although I've only goldfished so far I'm liking it. I made a few changes to it though. I took your most current list and cut the following:

3xRegrowth:Powerful yes but in a mill deck its kinda Meh.

4xLose Hope:While it's kinda nice for the Scrye, just giving one Creature -1/-1 isn't that good.

2xSylvan Library:Cause I don't have any at the present time :(

3xDecree of Pain:With no Dark Ritual it's kinda high on the curve. If it cycled for 4, I would have kept it in.

2xDeed:This feels like if you need Deed your dead.

3xNaturalize:These might go back in. I need to test.

Added:
2xKrosan Reclamation:Not as powerful as Regrowth, but it fits good with Flashback and it's an Instant.

4xDiabolic Edict:Kills creatures, or starts the Game chain.

2xBlack Mail:More discard

2xDragon Breath:Give DSC haste.

3xSuper Secret Tech: ??? I hope to make down to AS Sunday to do some testing. This card does fit nicely though.

2x Worldly Tutor:I might end up cutting but I did need a way to find the Game with the lack of the SL.

2x Living Wish:Added some critters to the board, for the just in case.

At anyrate I really can't wait to try this out. I feel like a kid on the way to the toy store with his parent's credit card.
:) :) :)

Elvenwish
05-14-2005, 04:02 PM
Man, am I having fun testing this deck. I do hve a couple questions though. Decree of Pain seems so cumbersome. Why not Hideous Laughter? It is cheaper and still able to go off at any time due to its "instant" status. It seems much more agressive and usable than Decree of Pain. Further, as has been stated recently, lose hope feels cumbersome. I have replaced it with Diabolic Edict. It has the added advantage of allowing me to kill my Gamekeeper. To fit this in one could drop a Deed and perhaps a regrowth ... or drop Sylvan Library all together.

Looking at Brushwagg's post, couldn't running a few Living Wish,placing a Gamekeeper in the board, allow for a more consistant deck. On top of this, it increases the chance of getting a Darksteel Colossus when Gamekeeper's ability activates. I was thining 3 Gamekeeper and 1-2 Living Wish main deck.

Rag Man
05-14-2005, 05:35 PM
The deck originally ran 3 Gamekeeper main deck and had 2 Living Wish also to supplement them. The only problem here is that by adding Living Wish, you're setting yourself back a turn. Chances are, you are going to cast a Gamekeeper or Living Wish by turn 5. By the time you get there, you are going to have to spend mana tapping out to cast a Living Wish. This was the problem with the deck, because your opponent now has the opportunity to draw something that will potentially hurt you or kill you. I love Living Wish, and in some variations of this deck, it can be solid. The only thing is that through playtesting I've found it to be a dead draw while trying to establish board control. I play Worldly Tutor over Living Wish. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend it.

Sylvan Library is still up in the air. I don't particular care for it, because while it is a house against control, against most other decks in the format it isn't spectacular. So it comes down to what your meta is like for this card. I'll have to play in a few more tournaments to see if I truly like it or not, but more importantly, if it works or not.

Brushwagg
05-14-2005, 10:34 PM
@Hollywood:Have you tried out Sensei's Diving Top? I got to thinking about it. It can do what the SL thing and draw you a card if need be. The downside being that it costs a mana and if you draw you kill your next draw. Basically I'm just kinda throwing that out as a thought.

On to the Living Wish. I've put a couple in basically for critters in the board that I really don't want clogging the main deck and giving me a way to win, just in case.
Currently I'm running in the Board.


1xSpiritmonger:Fits the deck colors and a 6/6 regenerate. Good stuff might become 2.

1xEternal Witness:Not sure about this one, but can get back stuff if I need to.

1xGloomdrifter:After Threshold its a Infest on a stick. It's basically there for the heavy aggro decks.

1xPlague Spitter:Another one not sure on. But more aggro hate.

1xViridian Shaman:Artifact Hate. Will cut if Naturalize goes into the deck.

1xSylvan Safekeeper:Probably one of the best wish targets in the deck. Basically there to make the DSC untargetable.

After that the board pretty much stayed the same. Except
1xPernicious Deed
2xMutilate:Again for the aggro match. Without Dark Ritual this deck is kinda slow.
3xExecute
3xChoke.

No_Life_No_Future
05-15-2005, 11:59 PM
Revelation is card disadvantage.... (its just bad :()

I may have mentionted this earlier but for some reason i feel like mentioning it again. You may need reconsider your kill condition. Why not use auriok salvagers, Lions Eye Diamond, and spellbombs?

If you ran two or three coppies of LED you will be more likely to hit one before you gamekeeper into a salvager... and spellbombs are actually decent cards without the combo. The last time I suggested this you kind of ignored me, but it provides a way to kill an opponent that turn rather than having to swing with a t2 fattie :(...

It works in t1 oath.

Brushwagg
05-16-2005, 12:13 PM
@Cooldude254:Raider Bob put that together, and Hollywood and I tested in singles, and it was really bad. I would say for a team event yes, but in singles it is not that good. You need either white mana or LED in play to win. The great thing about the way it runs right now is it's simple. Kill "The Game" and win.

I added Blasting Station to help start the chain or keep it going. Also seeing it being played this weekend I think it really could use Sensei's Diving Top over Sylvan Library and at least 2 Naturalize. Also it needs at least 3 Dark Rituals.

On another note you don't have to play DSC in it. There are alot of critters that could fit in that spot. But swinging for 11 is just so cool :cool:

Rag Man
05-17-2005, 11:03 PM
Some major uber-tekky changes have been made to the deck. I'll let you all know what the deck list and results are after this weekend in Virginia, which I am poised to hopefully...and finally... win, dammit all.

Just like Bon Jovi once said..."it's now or never"...

Brushwagg
05-18-2005, 12:29 PM
Last night Trevor(can't remeber his Source name) did some testing last night. Mirror match. A few things that I did notice is that Dark Ritual needs to be in this deck. The speed it provides is to good to ignore. He was running it I was not and he was able to drop turn 2 game I had to wait till turn 4. This also makes Decree of Pain very playable. On a side note mine was set for Extended. Also instead of Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile a better choice is Sensei's Diving Top. I was able to pull off some crazy stuff, and didn't have to wait for my upkeep.

@Hollywood:Could you please post your list or at least the changes. I have been trying to think of good includes. Trevor and I where breifly talking about splashing in blue for Serum Visions or Brainstorm. I was also thinking of Impulse or Plunge into Darkness.

Just a few thoughts

Rag Man
05-18-2005, 01:52 PM
Well, here is the current list that I run, and will more than likely be running this weekend in Virginia. The changes have been made based on playtesting, and the list should remain the same until this weekend unless otherwise noted.

"The Game"
by Hollywood and Team Left Field

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dark Ritual
3 Funeral Charm
2 Worldly Tutor

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
2 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
1 Dragon's Breath

//3cc
4 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//5cc-//8cc
1 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land Resources
7 Swamp
5 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou

//Sideboard
As if would tell... :p


Updated Card Choice Analysis
Funeral Charm: When it came down to the Scrye effect from Lose Hope, I thought to myself what was more important, the spell's actual utility, or the bonus of Scrye. It was nice to have two in one, but now, I get more discard and creature kill at one mana instant speed. There is already Sylvan Library with Night's Whisper, and Regrowth for retrieval which is sufficient enough for me to maintain board control with Deed, Naturalize, etc. until I combo out.

Sylvan Library vs. Diving Top: The reason why we chose Sylvan Library over the Top is due to the control matchup. The permanent effect of searching with the top is truly hot, but it also has to be activated every turn with mana you'd rather use for discard or other spells. The deck's mana curve isn't very high, so with the mana I do use, I'd prefer to cast spells over paying mana to dig every turn. Library does just sit there, but it doesn't have to be bounced like Top and then countered. Sylvan wins out because it is guaranteed card search, unlike the Top.

Dragon's Breath: I first had this card introduced to me by Brushwagg...it is pretty tekky and works much better than Lightning Greaves. Ity sets my opponent up for a one turn clock now. Even if I draw into it, which is highly unlikely, I have outs to get it into my graveyard, so it is worth the slot to try and win a whole turn faster.

The sideboard has extreme tech in it now. Fully loaded, bitch... :angry:

goldenj
05-18-2005, 01:54 PM
Dark Ritual is a must. The speed is killer, literally for this deck.

Revelation: this always favors the better player. But if you are the better player you are already better able to figure out what your opponent holds. And it lessens the effect of duress and therapy -- actually underpowering your own cards. Finally -- you spent a card to do this to yourself! And muliples are super extra dead cards in hand. The problem is when playtesting you remember the times it helped, rather than noticing how you would have rather had a ___, or helped your opponent play around your hand.

Sylvan Library: is a house precisely because of the amount of deck manipulation here.

Rag Man
05-18-2005, 02:01 PM
I think you posted at the same time I did gold...the changes have already been made. Refer to the new deck list for an update on the changes. :cool:

grogthegreat
05-18-2005, 06:03 PM
Hello!
Sweet deck! I love the idea. Just some quick, likely to be lame, ideas;
first, have you ever considered diabolic intent as it is another cheap sac outlet that is at the same time a demonic tutor. The only problem is that it will be a dead card more often than not.

secondly, why the switch from innocent blood to diabolic intent? Blood gives you a chance for a two for one trade gaining you nice card advantage. Also it is half the cost. The only down side is that it becomes a dead card once you have DSC in play but if you have DSC in play then it shouldn't matter if their worst creature in play gets saced or not. As I have yet to play test this deck, cards on their way, you can completly ignor me if you want.
Grog

Rag Man
05-18-2005, 08:15 PM
Thanks for the interest in the deck. These explanations might help:

1.) It (Innocent Blood) is a sorcery, and is usually only good turn one.
2.) It is a sacrifice outlet for Keeper, but I already have enough outlets for him anyways. Deed and Edict are a house...and while Blood is good, it hurts because of it's sorcery speed. This is where Funeral Charm comes into discussion. I love it, and in playtesting, it is awesome. Kills first turn Birds/Ranger/etc.
3.) Diabolic Intent is too situational...I already play Worldly Tutor...which is much faster and cheaper.

Hope this helps!

Brushwagg
05-18-2005, 11:58 PM
Well I must say You are gaining quite a following here :) . This deck is a ton of fun to play. My only concern with the list right now is how do you stop from getting decked. If both DSC are on the bottom or around there (rare but happens).
I kinda looked at Funeral Charm also on Tuesday, I kinda dismissed as it sucks, but this was with out testing. Thinking about it you can choose 1 of 3(not sure if it has 2 or 3)? things do on it. So it might fit in pretty good.

On another note I wish you good luck this weekend. Show them how to play THE GAME :angry: :angry:

Rag Man
05-24-2005, 12:41 AM
After placing 3rd in the Virginia Mox Jet tournament, I present to you the now official list for The Game. While this is the list I played, I am going to mark changes down in the newer list underneath this one. The new list was comprised after the tournament as Team Left Field with myself smoothed out the edges.

3rd Place - "The Game" 5/22/05

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Naturalize
2 Regrowth
1 Dragon Breath

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
1 The Abyss

//5cc
4 Gamekeeper
1 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land-Mana
8 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Treetop Village

//Sideboard
4 Perish
3 Tsunami
2 Execute
2 Choke
2 Coffin Purge
1 Naturalize
1 Tranquility



"The Game", Current

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Naturalize
1 Regrowth
1 Dragon Breath

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//5cc
2 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land-Mana
7 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Treetop Village

//Sideboard
4 Perish
4 Lose Hope
3 Tsunami
2 Coffin Purge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

+1 Decree of Pain, -1 The Abyss
Obviously, with the addition of Dark Rituals again finding their home in this deck, The Abyss is still a magnificent card...it's just too slow. It does maintain a steady stream of board control. But more often than not, in a given game, It is too slow. Besides, it is a one of, and Decree is an instant that gets around Standstill and draws me a card.

Tsunami defeats Choke
In a given game of Magic, you have to ask yourself a question, what would you rather have - an opponent with no lands, or an opponent with tapped lands that still has an opportunity to make his/her lands untap? Tsunami is better than Choke in my metagame because it forces Solidarity to recover with nothing on the board and a hand that is torn apart. It sets up my combo nicely, crippling theirs, period. I also play Dark Ritual, so it fits perfectly.

Chains of Mephistopheles
I realized alot of my board slots were dead in Virginia, because people played more Survival their than in Syracuse. So, in Syracuse, I know Solidarity is everywhere. This card is devastating against that deck, and if you have this out and then hit Tsunami, it's literally "game" over.

Lose Hope
This card is awesome against decks that pack 1/1 or 2/1 critters that are instrumental to an opponent's mana base or attack base. It also Scryes, which is particulary good in this deck. It would have been a house had I had these in Virginia, and I love this card versus Survival. Savage tech.

Treetop Village
When you have no other out, Treetop Village is by itself a good, solid, man-land that tramples. It is great against counter-based decks, and serves at least as an alternate win condition, a sacrifice outlet to Therapy, or a Diabolic Edict-aimed-at-Collossus dodger.

Dragon Breath
I bought this card for 5 cents at the store the day of the Virginia tournament. They didn't even charge me, they just gave it to me. And at the same time, they gave me about 6 wins in their tournament when they did so. This card speeds up the clock by one whole turn for an opponent to find a solution. And by that time, they have no hand. This card truly screams "Hollywood" on it...and it is awesome in this deck. Thanks for the suggestion, Brushwagg. It is a dead draw, but you have a slim chance of drawing into it, as I did only once the whole tournament. It is 100% worth playing. Uber-tech.

Hope these explanations help!

~HWooD~:angry:

Bastian
05-24-2005, 08:45 AM
You only pack a couple of Decrees and a set of Night's Whisper as card drawers. Considering that the Decrees cost 5 mana to cycle we're left with the Whispers... You must have to mulligan very aggressively, am I right?

Rag Man
05-24-2005, 11:16 AM
Well, I also play Dark Rituals. They aid in the casting of Decree alot. Considering the amount of hate I am already packing for creatures, I usually never have a problem cycling Decree. I don't mulligan down to anything less than 6 hardly ever, if at all. I always prefer to have Therapy or Duress in the grip to start. This deck mulls semi-aggressive, because you always like to start the game of with some sort of discard.

Brushwagg
05-24-2005, 12:20 PM
Everytme you re-do the list I like more then the one before it. Placing 3rd is also very :cool:. The only thing I can find wrong with your list is that Gamekeeper cost 4 not 5. But other than that this list looks solid. I'll mess around with it.

Again Congrads.

Hoojo
05-24-2005, 01:05 PM
I've been tinkering around, and the tweaks I've done are so close to your final list, I'm scared. I am awed by your placing in that tournament; That is the Sheez Neez :cool: . I think its time for me to officially stop bitching about innovation, because between The Game, Rabid Wombat, and Nausea, I'm in a heaven of deck testing/playing, with The Game by personal favorite right now. Excellent work.

umbowta
05-24-2005, 02:13 PM
I too am extremely pleased with The Game right now. It is, by far, the most fun deck I have in my current arsenal. I let one of my buddies play the deck a couple nights ago. I dont think I could have beaten the smile off his face with a baseball bat.

Brushwagg
05-24-2005, 09:40 PM
What's not great about the deck? It's probably the funnest deck in the format right now and it wins. I have noticed that a 2/2 can hold back a creture horde :D.

One thing I'm going test out is Roar of the Wurm. I almost fell on the floor when I was looking at a list and remebered that its a SORCERY and makes at least 1 6/6 for 4 mana.

GRAH
05-24-2005, 10:23 PM
This deck plays surprisingly well for a deck that originally looks like a scrub-combo deck. (no offense, but that was what I thought when I originally saw the deck) I've been getting some pretty damn fast wins thanks to the early-game ruption.

I think the MD is pretty much perfect for the deck, plus or minus a copy. As for the SB, though...I'm not sure. I assume RGSA is popular over by you (I don't know anything about area metas). Otherwise, I don't think Perish deserves an SB 4-spot. Also, is Lose Hope really that good? There simply is a shortage of effective X/1s to kill. There's Soltari Priest...Birds of Paradise...and Quirion Ranger. That's about it.

For a general SB to this deck, I think this might work best:

3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Coffin Purge
1 Dragon Shadow (I couldn't think of anything else for a single slot.)
1 Iridescent Angel/Pristine Angel (Oath tech. This deck is enough like Oath to take stuff from it)
2 Roar of the Wurm (Tight Sight tech. Tight Sight would drop all of its stuff into the grave and end up casting these babies to fend off Aggro. You can do the same.)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Tsunami

Rag Man
05-25-2005, 12:58 AM
This deck plays surprisingly well for a deck that originally looks like a scrub-combo deck. (no offense, but that was what I thought when I originally saw the deck) I've been getting some pretty damn fast wins thanks to the early-game ruption.

I think the MD is pretty much perfect for the deck, plus or minus a copy. As for the SB, though...I'm not sure. I assume RGSA is popular over by you (I don't know anything about area metas). Otherwise, I don't think Perish deserves an SB 4-spot. Also, is Lose Hope really that good? There simply is a shortage of effective X/1s to kill. There's Soltari Priest...Birds of Paradise...and Quirion Ranger. That's about it.

For a general SB to this deck, I think this might work best:

3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Coffin Purge
1 Dragon Shadow (I couldn't think of anything else for a single slot.)
1 Iridescent Angel/Pristine Angel (Oath tech. This deck is enough like Oath to take stuff from it)
2 Roar of the Wurm (Tight Sight tech. Tight Sight would drop all of its stuff into the grave and end up casting these babies to fend off Aggro. You can do the same.)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Tsunami
I'm glad you take an interest in the deck, as it is doing extremely well right now in tournament play. In my meta, there is no Soltari Priest, but there are Birds of Paradise, Quirion Ranger, Savannah Lions, Fyndhorn Elves, Goblin Lackey, Eternal Witness, and Fairie Conclaves. The reason Lose Hope is placed in the sideboard is for its dual utility, being able to ice a creature and Scrye. It is very useful, and deserves a place in my sideboard for the metagame.

As for Roar, I don't particularly like it, and I'll tell you why: It doesn't trample. It can be blocked by a simple 1/1 chump blocker. Also, I know it flashes back after being milled by Gamekeeper. But I don't want a regular 6/6...I want an indestructible-hasted 11/11 creature with trample turn 2. The 11/11 Collossus is more than enough with Dragon Breath.

As for Iridescent Angel: It is too slow. It is a 5 turn clock as opposed to 1 with DSC (Dragon Breath cannot target Angel), and is Indestructible. While it is true it gets around StP, alot of people play Wrath of God around here, which negates its overall effectiveness. DSC is more than capable of meeting the task post-SB.

EDIT: Dragon Breath is in...and staying there. :cool:

Hoojo
05-25-2005, 09:48 AM
I'm a bullet! From Saturday School #29 by Rune Horvik, Saturday, May 24, 2003:


Q: I activate Oath of Druids and reveal a Dragon Breath before eventually getting a Cognivore. Is the Breath in the graveyard when the Cognivore comes into play?

--Ville Yli-Mäyry

A: Cognivore is put into play at the same time as Dragon Breath. When the game checks for triggered abilities, Dragon Breath sees the Cognivore that came into play at the same time as it entered the graveyard, and it will trigger.

No need to remove Dragon's Breath. Oath of Druids is worded the same, and this is straight from Wizards.

bigredmeanie
05-25-2005, 09:59 AM
Q: I activate Oath of Druids and reveal a Dragon Breath before eventually getting a Cognivore. Is the Breath in the graveyard when the Cognivore comes into play?

--Ville Yli-Mäyry

A: Cognivore is put into play at the same time as Dragon Breath. When the game checks for triggered abilities, Dragon Breath sees the Cognivore that came into play at the same time as it entered the graveyard, and it will trigger.


Exactly. When the ability resolves the DSC comes into play at the same time the Dragon Breath goes into the graveyard. This is all immediately during ability resolution. Once the ability finishes resolving SBE are checked and Dragon Breath sees that a big creature just came into play and triggers.

Brushwagg
05-25-2005, 12:02 PM
As for Dragon Breath, given a recent rules clarification, it will be removed from the decklist. I guess DSC hits play before the Breath reaches the graveyard. I am uncertai nwhat will take its place yet...


Who told you that??? And don't say Nate at Altered States.

Peter_Rotten
05-25-2005, 12:29 PM
This thread contains the final ruling on Breath and DSC. Long story short - it works. (http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=10;t=265;st=0)

I sorta like the Roar of the Wurm idea and would give it at least a few playtest sessions. In fact, I would consider at least a cursory examination of all on-color flashback cards - even graveyard dependant cards...

Roar of the Wurm
Rifstone Portal
Call of the Herd
Barrow Ghoul (jk)
Hmmm, is there anything else worth at least consideration?

Any threshold cards worth considering? I know that the list is pretty solid as of now, but it won't hurt to look.

Rag Man
05-25-2005, 01:18 PM
Okay, back to business...

Dragon Breath speeds the deck up by a whole turn, and will stay in the list because it is that good in here. Just to reiterate, here are a few minor key points to the deck so that anyone playing it should realize:

1.) There are ideally 3 dead draws in the deck: 2 DSC and 1 Dragon Breath. You may, however, discard them from your hand using Cabal Therapies and Funeral Charms. Know that if you get stuck with 2 DSC in hand, you have outs. Target yourself.

2.) Always play your discard before playing combo. Know that you can take chances, but always be aware of what your opponent is playing.

3.) Mulligan semi-aggressively. This is probably the most important thing to know about the deck. Depending on what you are playing against, i.e. Solidarity, try and end up with some discard in your grip to start the game if possible. There are several dead draws in the deck against Solidarity Game 1...but you have enough discard (a load) to supplement your combo and make up for lost cards.

Those are just a few things to know when playing this deck for people who have never heard or seen it before. Hope that helps a little.

As for the list right now, it is pretty solid. The Regrowth I am definitely sold on, as it makes for one more of whatever I have already played in the game. It makes a 5th Duress, a 5th Hymn, etc. I like it, and it beats out Witness because you don't want to Oath into Witness at all.

As for the sideboard, I am not too sure I am sold about Lose Hope. I personally would have really loved to play it in Virginia, and may have even made finals had I played it. But in the Syracuse metagame, I already have so much creature kill maindeck that it just might be overkill. The team has been discussing it, and while they are sold on the card, I am not too sure about it. I like its dual utility, but I am not too certain it is the optimal choice for the board. I'd rather have some more hate against Landstill than anything else, perhaps Cranial Extraction making a return.

As for cards that are milled off the top and help out Threshold, I think I would rather not try and dilute the combo and its protection. I like the list as it is, and unfortuantely do not have much room for anything else right now. I am, however, open to suggestions!

And at Big Arse...the Game will reign supreme!

~HWooD~ :angry: :;):

GRAH
05-25-2005, 05:51 PM
I definitely think Lose Hope should be dropped. It really isn't that effective. It simple doesn't kill enough key creatures. Ghastly Demise, or Vendetta is a better card for 1-mana spot-kill, but I don't think this deck needs it anyway.

Roar of the Wurm isn't meant to be an offensive card, it's meant to be a defensive fatty. It's particularly good at slowing down RGSA, which you were boarding against anyway.

What do you think about Tainted Pact in the MD? You really don't have much in the way of draw, and for this deck, Pact digs quite deep.

By the way...what are the general good/bad matchups for the new version of this? I can imagine it's the typical for combo decks (beats Aggro, loses to Control), though I can imagine Landstill would be a much better matchup than, say, ATS.

Raider Bob
05-25-2005, 06:49 PM
@Lose Hope - You really need to look at what this deck has lost too in the last few touaments it has played in.

A: Weenie Critters - Alix playing his Junk Survival and most survival based decks. Lose hope fixes two problems, it digs too the combo faster Very Important, and it kills the critters that hurt this deck the most. Roffellos, Basking Rootwallas...the weenie list is big.

B: Brainstorm - This is the biggest issue for this deck. There is really no good awnser for this card and untill there is more hate directed too Survival based decks is the best course of action. As Survival based decks seem to be the majority of the meta game outside of syracuse.

GRAH
05-25-2005, 11:03 PM
Then you might as well just SB more Funeral Charms.

Brushwagg
05-25-2005, 11:37 PM
@Grah:To answer your question about bad matchups. U/G Madness. It has the quick beats, counters, bounce, and sometimes the discard works in the Madness players' favor. You can still win this match pre-board you just have to watch their hand. I'm sure Hollywood could tell you other ones but this one really sticks out in my mind.

@Hollywood: Are you running 61 cards ??? When I was putting the current list together thats what I came up with.

Rag Man
05-26-2005, 03:13 AM
Yes Brush...the list does have 61 cards :cool:

A buddy of mine made this for me a while back...kinda cool:

http://image46.webshots.com/46/3/20/36/322932036iocKbD_ph.jpg

Orogen
05-26-2005, 10:01 AM
I tested ~10 games last night versus ATS and I only got out DSC once when active tradewind wasnt online. I got my face smashed almost every game. The disruption did well in the early game but ATS could recover much faster than I could apply pressure. I also noticed in at least 2 of the 10 games I drew both DSC and the dragon breath! I realize this probably isnt typical, but in both games I didnt have access to therapies either.
Is there some trick to the ATS matchup that Im missing? It seems to me this deck needs more threats or... I dont know, brainstorm? I realize a 3rd color could really hurt the fairly stable mana base but it might be necessary.
About tainted pact, it seems it would be bad. If you hit a DSC or maybe the dragons breath, you have to take it. Im not sure you can afford having these (well, maybe the breath) removed from the game.
For card draw, skeletal scrying? The deck can easily support it and with the disruption, the loss of life shouldnt be a problem.

Cheers
Orogen

J.Dangerously
05-26-2005, 11:30 AM
I also tested this deck last night and ended up with two questions.

What do you do one DSC #1 gets swords, and you draw into the second DSC?

Has anyone thought of using contagion as critter control instead of lose hope? It wrecks 2 of thier creatures, can be done as a free instant at the end of thier turn, and can be used with extra hymns that may be in your hand late game.

Brushwagg
05-26-2005, 12:23 PM
What do you do one DSC #1 gets swords, and you draw into the second DSC?

You HAVE to make yourself discard the DSC!!! Ya it kinda sucks but it needs to be done. Also if you know, or think your opponent is playing StP then you always name it with Cabal Therapy. Also if your Meta is heavy StP you may want to run Living Wish. LW can get back DSC, The Game, or goodies put in the board. I was running and had 2x Spirit Monger, and other all around useful creatures in my board. I may put them back in because I do like have a way out, just in case.

@Contagion: Seems like it would be a good fit in the board. I think it is worth some testing at least.

@Roar of the Wurm:After thinking about it I'm probably cutting this from my list, and putting in Regrowth.

@Third Color:I also have thought about Blue. You get Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Mask of the Mimick etc... I just haven't solves the problem of making the mana base unstable. The best I thought of so far is 1x Tropical Island, 1xUnderground Sea, 1x Island. But this can add up to big trouble with Wasteland, and having alot of bad opening hands. As the deck stands now you have really only 1 dead draw, you can hard cast DSC with Dark Rituals (I've had to do it), and adding the third can equal more dead draws.

Orogen
05-26-2005, 01:29 PM
It may be bad, but abandon hope? At least you can discard the DSC or whatever and still get some use out of it instead of just being a total waste.
Maybe even something silly that does everything: pox. That way you can discard the DSC and then sac. the keeper to potentially get it into play. And pox has the added bonus of a touch of disruption for the opponent as well. :;):
Just trying to brainstorm some cards.

One other thing, you seem to have cut most of the ways to get gamekeeper into the yard. This has been problematic for me against solidarity. Perhaps adding in 1 phyrexian tower again? I have definitely stalled out a few times having my opponent with little to no hand, a keeper on the board and swinging for 2. Not exactly a great clock.

-Orogen

Hoojo
05-26-2005, 01:41 PM
I've been running 3 Last Rites to take care of the drawn dead cards. I use it to get rid of excess Gamekeeper's, Darksteel Collossi, and Dragon Breath. They work well enough, as I can also discard excess land, etc.

My meta is heavy in the Swords to Plowshare area, so I have also been testing Plated Slagwurm, but no trample eats fatty foods, so when I board them in, I'm considering replacing Dragon Breath with Dragon Fangs or Dragon Shadow.

I would rather keep this deck tight and not add a third color. The fact its two colors and doesn't require a full 4 duals is incredible.

bigredmeanie
05-26-2005, 02:31 PM
Wouldn't a more proactive solution like Cranial Extraction be better against swords that changing your beat stick base to a crappy one? Ritualed Extraction on turn 2 is broke. Naming Survival of the Fittest. Yay I win the game. I've always been more about being proactive with my threats, also if you keep the extraction in the board, your opponent might not see it comming.

Can ATS win if you nail all 4 Survivals? I think not.

Rag Man
05-26-2005, 03:37 PM
A few thoughts:

1.) There has been some discussion amongst our team in the addition of blue. While it probably and more than likely will not happen, we tinkered around with Lim Dul's Vault, which is somewhat of a broken card and underused in the current format because there is nothing to abuse it with.

2.) I have thought about adding more sacrifice mechanisms to the deck, and Phyrexian Tower wouldn't be such a bad idea given the Dark Rituals are back in the deck. But be forewarned: placing Phyrexian Tower in your deck list makes for 4 dead draws in the deck in the opening grip, not 3. I am fine with the sacrificial outlets with the deck as it is.

3.) Cranial Extraction is more than likely going to be added to the deck list. There will potentially be 2 in the main deck and 1 in the sideboard. On that note, when you play against SotF, chances are they will chase after a Gilded Drake. While that is particularly devastating, I am looking for ways to counter-act that sort of thing from happening. Survival generally has at least two creatures in play at one time, so here are a few solutions against ATS that we have considered, no matter how situational or underused they may be for the sideboard:

Cannibalize (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/SH/Cannibalize.html)

Brand (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/US/Brand.html)
(of course, I would have to splash a small amount of red, but considering it cycles and I already play one red card main deck, a Badland or two might not hurt if it makes the cut).

Those are several ideas against the matchup for ATS, besides Cranial Extraction. However, for the maindeck, I have noticed something else:

One With Nothing (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/SK/One_with_Nothing.html)

An outlet to get those Collossi or Dragon Breath in the graveyard.

Another point of interest, there has been much talk about the now-defunct Worldly Tutor in the deck list. Just out of curiousity, I ran into another Urza's Saga card that might be of some discussion for this deck:

Citanul Flute (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/US/Citanul_Flute.html)

A permanent tutor. It does cost 5, however. I play Dark Rituals, so I can stall out with creature kill/discard, get four mana, then fetch for Gamekeeper. Also, I can find other Gamekeepers in the deck too to ensure a Collossus hits. Also ensures Dark Rituals in the late game aren't as dead as they should be. Just some food for discussion. Share!

J.Dangerously
05-26-2005, 04:12 PM
I would think that if you are looking at discard just for the sake of getting something into the 'yard, why not run Sickening dreams from torment. I have used them in my verduran decks for a while now.
1B-Sorcery: : As an additional cost to play Sickening Dreams, discard X cards from your hand. Sickening Dreams deals X damage to each creature and each player.

Works wonderfully as board sweeper, graveyard enabler, gamekeeper-getter-rid-off, and direct damage after that first swing with colossus.

Orogen
05-26-2005, 04:14 PM
Err... I really dont think any of those cards are useful, but way to dig up some funky ones!
Have you tried massacre? That seems to be great in many matchups, including most of the time ATS. I think the deck needs more board-sweeping type spells, hell maybe even something like nev. disk. It would be useful to consolidate some of the spot removal for things like skeletal scrying etc. to make less dead/bad cards in hand. Thats why I suggested pox, it can get the 1 creature thats out (including your own keeper) or even multiples if there are many.
If youre going to add red, dont. Add blue with 1x trop and 1x underground or something and run your choice of bounce spells, far superior to brand I feel. You could actually run that against other decks besides ATS.
Im not sure lim duls vault is right for this deck, theres only a few cards you REALLY have to have, and theyre all 4 ofs. General card draw would do just the same essentially, without the card-disadvantage drawback.
As far as the discard goes, look for something that has a positive effect. Using a card to discard more from your hand is terrible. Thats why abandon hope and last rites *might* be worth it. Im still trying to think what else could be used there, I know theres a blatant one we're missing.
As far as the sacrificing outlet goes, I really think the deck could use at least one more. I understand the dead draws, but tower still adds colorless so is really only dead if its your only land in which case youd mulligan. Besides, Im saying 1 tower should help.
Would anvil of bogarden help your opponent too much? That would take care the drawing and running into DSCs at the same time. Too risky?
Cranial extraction seems decent, but I dont know how many to run or what slots just yet. Ill have to test that one out some.

*edit* the only other discard for effect cards are the dreams, sickening (mentioned, good call) or nostalgic. I would favor sickening, it might fit the bill, Im not sure theres much youd want to get back with nostalgic plus the GG could be rough.

-Orogen

Brushwagg
05-26-2005, 10:14 PM
Well we are running Deed for board clearing. I have been thinking of another card though. Lethal Vapors (http://www.findmagiccards.com/Cards/SC/Lethal_Vapors.html). Slap this baby down and there is no stalling, and well it pretty much wrecks creature decks. I was running Blasting Station to help out the combo, but I like this much better. Also if your opponent wants to get rid of it with out Disenchant/Naturalize it just cost them there next turn. Oh ya and DSC just come into play and smashes face.

@Worldly Tutor:At first I thought I was going to miss it, but I must have some terrible luck because I only cast it like 3 times. I alway seem to pull The Game, and mill into another one.

@Card Drawing:I've been thinking. You really don't want to much extra draw in the deck because it increases your chances of drawing DSC and DB. So I think just the Night Whispers are fine.

Some food for thought. Lets see if I can hit another homerun with the Lethal Vapors. :D :D

Edit:The picture is awesome. I didn't see it earilier because the computer at work blocked it :angry: :angry:.

Nightmare
05-27-2005, 08:10 AM
Lethal Vapors is a house! The synergy it has with the theme of this deck is so sick that it almost seems unfair.

Orogen
05-27-2005, 09:36 AM
Have you tested it out? What does the extra turn get you?
If you have a DSC out, you should be doing ok anyway. It seems like its tap 4 draw a card and untap. That doesnt seem that hot.

-Orogen

Brushwagg
05-27-2005, 12:16 PM
Have you tested it out? What does the extra turn get you?
If you have a DSC out, you should be doing ok anyway. It seems like its tap 4 draw a card and untap. That doesnt seem that hot.

-Orogen
Hopefully I will get some testing in this weekend, at the latest Tuesday. I'm not saying drop it once the DSC is out. I put it in there to get the DSC out. I have terrible luck in getting Thearpies equaling Gamekeepers. Any Gamekeeper that gets flipped is kill and keeps the chain going and doesn't touch the DSC. This puts most decks in a damned if they do get rid of damned if they don't. I hear free turns are kind of good. On a side note, before you do drop Vapors you still want to rip your opponent's hand apart.

Orogen
05-27-2005, 12:25 PM
I agree about cycling through the keepers, thats a definite plus as I have the same problems never getting the keeper in the yard.
But I still dont feel the extra turn is that strong in this deck. With no card draw, youll get an extra top-deck, and in my testing thats not so hot... thus the reason Im advocating more card draw and some discard effect. If vapors were played on me, Id just break it immediately at the expense of maybe getting duressed? However, this is just my feeling, im interested in knowing how it does in testing. Im working on some other ideas for it, so let us know!

-Orogen

Rag Man
05-27-2005, 01:53 PM
I dunno...Lethal Vapors actually might be kind of hot...but if I were to play it, it would be a sideboard option at most. I have 3 Edicts, 4 Therapy, and 3 Deed in the deck. With that, I should be able to chain through Keepers with no problem.

~HWooD~

Raider Bob
05-27-2005, 02:14 PM
The decks Survival matchup becomes a lot better as of June 20th as does everyones survival matchup. As long as you can get your hands on the needle.

FakeSpam
05-27-2005, 02:44 PM
"The Game", Current

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Naturalize
1 Regrowth
1 Dragon Breath

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//5cc
2 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land-Mana
7 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Treetop Village

//Sideboard
4 Perish
4 Lose Hope
3 Tsunami
2 Coffin Purge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
Lethal Vapors is not tech. Lethal Vapors is not tech for the same reason The Abyss is not tech.

You already have a 4 drop. That 4 drop should not be depending on you having made another completely different 4 drop the turn before. Especially one that your opponent decides if it remains in play or not.

It's weak, and not nearly as awsome as innocent blood would be in that particular slot. You know, because innocent blood actually does something.

I'm not sold on decree of pain either. I think it's a sub-optimal choice, but I can't come up with anything strictly better. Possibly sickening dreams.

noobslayer
05-27-2005, 03:21 PM
Some one may have something negative to say about this, but Nevinyrral's Disk might be a testable option in place of pernicious deed. It is a turn slower, but it handles heavier threats and doesn't hurt this deck when it pops.

GRAH
05-27-2005, 10:50 PM
FakeSpam, I'd think that Lethal Vapors could be at least decent sideboard tech versus RGSA and Angel Stompy, which have few Disenchant effects and the ability to cycle through Keepers is appealing.

I wouldn't MD it, though.

Brushwagg
05-27-2005, 11:35 PM
After thinking about it, I am cutting the Lethal Vapors. It may find a sideboard spot, not sure. After the last few posts brought stuff up that I had not thought about. Oh well.

However I will be testing out Nostalgic Dreams in place of Regrowth. They pretty much cost the same, GG to 1G, not hard for the deck. But the dreams does something Regrowth doesn't, it can get rid of the drawn DSC and DB. With the added bonus of bring back Duress, Hymn, Deed, etc... at the same time.

FakeSpam
05-28-2005, 10:45 AM
FakeSpam, I'd think that Lethal Vapors could be at least decent sideboard tech versus RGSA and Angel Stompy, which have few Disenchant effects and the ability to cycle through Keepers is appealing.

I wouldn't MD it, though.
They can blow up lethal vapors in response to you playing gamekeeper or them playing one of their own creatures. Lethal vapors will never do what you want it to. And when you do get your 4 mana conditional extra turn.... you don't do anything.

Rag Man
05-30-2005, 01:49 AM
I made Top 4 again today at Altered States with The Game, knocking off Landstill, R/G Survival, and Landstill again to make Top 4. I also beat some pretty quality players playing pretty quality decks, so even though it was a 9 person tourney, I still played good players and did very well. Another Top 4 showing for The Game!

~HWooD~ :angry:

GRAH
05-30-2005, 11:01 PM
FakeSpam, I'd think that Lethal Vapors could be at least decent sideboard tech versus RGSA and Angel Stompy, which have few Disenchant effects and the ability to cycle through Keepers is appealing.

I wouldn't MD it, though.
They can blow up lethal vapors in response to you playing gamekeeper or them playing one of their own creatures. Lethal vapors will never do what you want it to. And when you do get your 4 mana conditional extra turn.... you don't do anything.
You've just Time Walked for 2BB. Time Walking is good with this deck. And you're missing the point I was making: it's good versus RGSA and AS, which play destroyable creatures.

Brushwagg
05-30-2005, 11:19 PM
I made Top 4 again today at Altered States with The Game, knocking off Landstill, R/G Survival, and Landstill again to make Top 4. I also beat some pretty quality players playing pretty quality decks, so even though it was a 9 person tourney, I still played good players and did very well. Another Top 4 showing for The Game!

~HWooD~ :angry:
Awesome.... If the deck continues to well this deck should get moved to Open rather quickly and should be considered a DTB after we destroy all others at Big Arse!

Bryant Cook
05-30-2005, 11:29 PM
I made Top 4 again today at Altered States with The Game, knocking off Landstill, R/G Survival, and Landstill again to make Top 4. I also beat some pretty quality players playing pretty quality decks, so even though it was a 9 person tourney, I still played good players and did very well. Another Top 4 showing for The Game!

~HWooD~ :angry:
But you failed to mention what you lost to in T4. What was that extremely Janky deck again? It was running exalted angel and some other wierd control like cards.

Rag Man
05-31-2005, 04:16 PM
Yeah...

But you failed to mention I Tsunamied 3 times against you and I Executed your Angel when it was face up. I didn't die to Exalted Angel.

I died to a face down 2/2 colorless creature because you didn't have the mana to turn it up and I drew into absolutely nothing.

Jander78
05-31-2005, 04:32 PM
Guy's, keep this tourny talk to PM's or post in the Tournament forum. Don't spam threads with useless crap like this.

FakeSpam
05-31-2005, 06:13 PM
FakeSpam, I'd think that Lethal Vapors could be at least decent sideboard tech versus RGSA and Angel Stompy, which have few Disenchant effects and the ability to cycle through Keepers is appealing.

I wouldn't MD it, though.
They can blow up lethal vapors in response to you playing gamekeeper or them playing one of their own creatures. Lethal vapors will never do what you want it to. And when you do get your 4 mana conditional extra turn.... you don't do anything.
You've just Time Walked for 2BB. Time Walking is good with this deck. And you're missing the point I was making: it's good versus RGSA and AS, which play destroyable creatures.
Do I have to explain to you why browbeat is a bad card?

Hoojo
06-05-2005, 01:27 PM
I hate to do this, but I don't want this deck to be second page, so I'll post a little bit of testing to bump this deck. Hopefully we can get the list optimized and moved to open, so SheraWTFhad deck doesn't push this out of mind.

I dropped the two Decree of Pain's to make room for two Sickening Dreams, bringing to total to three. Basically, take the list on page 6, drop one Hymn and the two Decree's. They are working better, and quicker than the Decree's were for me. With the proper amount of starting discard, I usually have a Hymn or Therapy in hand that I can't use, so I'll pitch it to Dreams, along with extra land. It's faster, and can really help when you can't find that Dark Ritual.

Anyone else having good luck with this card?

Happy Gilmore
06-05-2005, 02:57 PM
I still can't believe that with 6 pages of discussion no one has mentioned Insidious Dreams.

3B

Instant

As an aditional cost to play insidious Dreams, discard X cards from your hand.

Search your library for X cards. Then shuffle your library and put those cards on top of it in any order.

grogthegreat
06-05-2005, 04:05 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid6]The huge problem with that card is that it costs four mana and your 4 drop should be spent on the game.[/color:post_uid6]

Brushwagg
06-05-2005, 10:20 PM
The huge problem with that card is that it costs four mana and your 4 drop should be spent on the game.

Exactly... Now if Insidious Dreams where 2B then it probably would find a way into the deck.

@Hoojo:I have not gotten around to testing out the Sickening Dreams yet. At present I'm tring out Nostalgic Dreams. I put it in the spot of Regrowth, it alows me to discard DSC, or Dragon Breath, extra land, etc... and returns cards. I think it is almost perfect for the deck except the casting cost GG. But I think it's a risk worth taking for the power of the card.

For all the people having issues with STP, I think I have a side board option.
Avoid Fate.
It's from Legends. Casting Cost:G
OracleText:counter target INSTANT or enchantment that targets a permanent you control.
This seems like a good SB for any deck that is running STP.

Garvman
06-06-2005, 12:21 AM
Someone mentioned to me that they were going to try Lim Duls Vault in this deck, but I think that messing up the mana base is too much of a downside to using the Vault, although it would be a game winner if you could cast it. Has anyone actually tried this out? Yes, I do still post every now and then.

umbowta
06-06-2005, 01:37 AM
Some one may have something negative to say about this, but Nevinyrral's Disk might be a testable option in place of pernicious deed. It is a turn slower, but it handles heavier threats and doesn't hurt this deck when it pops.I've been playing disk in my build since I put this deck together. I don't have deeds and figured disk is about the next best thing. Disk is suboptimal in a deck that can play deed, but it is getting the job done for me.

Hoojo
06-06-2005, 09:55 AM
Quote
Some one may have something negative to say about this, but Nevinyrral's Disk might be a testable option in place of pernicious deed. It is a turn slower, but it handles heavier threats and doesn't hurt this deck when it pops.
I've been playing disk in my build since I put this deck together. I don't have deeds and figured disk is about the next best thing. Disk is suboptimal in a deck that can play deed, but it is getting the job done for me.

I agree. While not as quick and versatile as Pernicious Deed, Disk will get the job done.

Rag Man
06-06-2005, 12:25 PM
Just as a reminder to everyone:

I went 3-1 on Sunday again with the Game! Unfortunately, because of the way Altered States does their playoff structure (which is ridiculous to me), I didn't make Top 4 at 3-1. Neither did a few other players. At any rate, The Game goes 3-1 again in a 19 person tournament!! :cool:

As for the deck list:

"The Game", Current

//1cc
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm

//2cc
4 Night's Whisper
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Naturalize
1 Regrowth
1 Dragon Breath
1 Dragon Shadow

//3cc
3 Pernicious Deed

//4cc
4 Gamekeeper

//5cc
2 Decree of Pain

//11cc
2 Darksteel Collossus

//Land-Mana
7 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
3 Treetop Village

//Sideboard
4 Perish
2 Persecute
3 Tsunami
2 Coffin Purge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Naturalize
1 Decree of Pain

As you can see, not too much has changed. The deck has been very consistent and has done very well. It has placed in a big name tournament and is beginning to be played all over the place. The interest is gathering on this deck, and thanks to everyone who loves it. I certainly do. It has beaten everything from Solidarity to U/W Landstill to Survival to Goblins. It is right up there with the best of 'em...so keep the ideas coming!

~HWooD~ :angry:

Nightmare
06-06-2005, 12:49 PM
Why is this still in the New/Developmental forum? I feel like it should at least be in Open. It's been showing up on the radar all over, and it seems like its getting close to optimized.

Rag Man
06-06-2005, 02:10 PM
Awesome.... If the deck continues to well this deck should get moved to Open rather quickly and should be considered a DTB after we destroy all others at Big Arse!


Why is this still in the New/Developmental forum? I feel like it should at least be in Open. It's been showing up on the radar all over, and it seems like its getting close to optimized.

:cool: I'm sure it will be there soon, fellas.

At any rate, Disk is absolutely awful in this deck. The bottom line is, Deed cost 3 and can be activated upon casting w/ Rituals or even open mana. Disk costs 4, comes into play tapped, and the four drop should be spent on Gamekeeper as stated earlier. If you don't have Deeds...get them lol. Of course, if you can't, then Disk is at most okay.

GRAH
06-06-2005, 02:56 PM
I agree with Hollywood. The fact that Deed comes online on turn 4 makes it INCREDIBLY good at stopping Survival-based decks, because that's when they start using their engine. And really, is Deed harder to get than Disk?

Hollywood: Is Dragon Shadow really worth it MD? Also, why is there only 1 Bayou? Fear of Wasteland, or lack of ownership?

One last thing: I think Decree of Pain needs to go. At 3BB, it doesn't come online nearly fast enough to hurt aggro. Even if it is uncounterable and instant, 3BB seems like too much. I'd much rather have Hideous Laughter or Infest.

From my testing, this deck is performing incredibly well. I sometimes have mana problems (getting too little, or too much--I once drew 15 lands in a game), but it's usually consistent. The SB is what I think needs the most work. Persecute seems awful. You have enough hand disruption; a slow 4cc one isn't helping much. I argued this before, I'll argue it again; Roar of the Wurm should be in that slot. It lets you get out a protective fatty, and it helps versus Landstill's STPs as another win condition.

Rag Man
06-06-2005, 06:16 PM
Here's the thing with Dragon Shadow, GRAH:

It all depends on how you look at it. In my personal opinion, the shadow is more than likely going to be removed because it isn't as effective as I once thought it would be. I mean, don't get me wrong, it is pretty scary when equipped onto a Collossus, but not as scary as the Breath. So, for all intents and purposes, it will be removed.

Now, with the addition of Treetops, my green mana supplement has been increased, so the removal of the Shadow and the addition of maybe another Regrowth would be kind of cool.

But, I am also considering adding in Cranial Extractions to the maindeck. So, here' s a little mini-poll:

How does this sound:

-1 Regrowth
-1 Dragon Shadow
+2 Cranial Extraction

Thumbs up...or thumbs down?? (I like the idea)...

~HWooD~ :angry:

Brushwagg
06-06-2005, 06:31 PM
Hmmm.... How about Thumbs half-way. I kinda think that the Extractions might be a little over-kill. But they can be helpful, in removing problem cards ie:STP, Edicts, and to a lesser degree Wing Shards. So I think a you should leave in the board. Like I have said before I'm giving Nostalgic Dreams a try in place of Regrowth. But ya Dragon Shadow needs to go, just because DSC Tramples.

@Grah:I have to agree with you on the Roar of Wurms in the side.

@Hollywood:I was wondering what did you lose on Sunday ???

EDIT:I do vote for this deck getting moved to Open. But I'm not a mod type, maybe you should contact one to have them move it. :) I think it's posting enough results to merit a move.

GRAH
06-06-2005, 07:33 PM
EDIT:I do vote for this deck getting moved to Open.
I concur.

Hollywood, can you answer my question about including only 1 Bayou?

Also, I don't think Cranial is really worth it, and I definitely wouldn't drop Regrowth for it. Maybe just add one in...

Rag Man
06-06-2005, 07:40 PM
GRAH: Sorry, forgot about that one. The reason there is only one Bayou in the deck is for one reason in particular, and that is that this deck is somewhat of a combo deck. Wasteland not only disrupts my land structure, but also messes with my combo. I don't want my deck to be susceptible to Wasteland hate, as I would rather render those Wastelands useless land drops in their deck. I also play six fetch-lands, so that also helps with searching for either a Forest or Swamp when I need one. So far, the deck has performed extremely well, and I've always ran just one Bayou.

~HWooD~ :angry:

GRAH
06-06-2005, 07:45 PM
Yeah, that makes more sense, though I think I'd up it to 2 like before.

What's your opinion on Roar in the SB? You said no to it before, but how about now, after more testing?

Rag Man
06-06-2005, 07:53 PM
That might be a good metagame choice, putting Roar in the sideboard. In case you haven't noticed, there is alot of hate towards blue and Islands in my sideboard...because Syracuse is filled with them...but I wouldn't put it in my board...

Persecute is essentially a game-winner against Solidarity, as is Tsunami. They are quite possibly the best board choices for Solidarity, which explains their presence.

As for moving the deck to the Open forum, I'd like to have the Mods move this bastard North as well.

Peter_Rotten
06-07-2005, 10:28 PM
Moved to Open. The deck is viable, possesses a degree of competitiveness, and its list is close to optimal.

Hollywood, I wouldn't mind if you edited your very first post so that it includes the current list.

Rag Man
06-07-2005, 10:46 PM
All taken care of P.R...

Let's welcome the Game to Open! If anyone wants to see a current list of the deck, refer to the first page of the thread.

Brushwagg
06-07-2005, 11:18 PM
Awesome, finally made it to open.



//Sideboard
4 Perish
2 Persecute
3 Tsunami
2 Coffin Purge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Cranial Extraction


Although I do need some help. I need some suggetions on what to place in the side board.
-2 Chains: Do own any and I can't afford 30-40 + dollars :(
-2 Extractions: Again don't own any, might be able to trade for them.

I was thinking +2 Roar of the Wurm, but other than that I'm not sure. Some of my thoughts were

Crypt: For Survival matchs

Avoid Fate:Counters instants that target The Game/DSC ie:STP

Not sure any thoughts ???

Hoojo
06-09-2005, 01:30 PM
How does this sound:

-1 Regrowth
-1 Dragon Shadow
+2 Cranial Extraction

Thumbs up...or thumbs down?? (I like the idea)..

Cranial Extraction, while it would be nice to remove the troublesome cards, might not fit well at 3B unless you squeezed in more acceleration.

On another note, I noticed in Fakespam's tournament report that brutal hand and mana disruption handed The Game a loss. Would you please detail this match so we can harden the deck more?

Rag Man
06-09-2005, 01:49 PM
Well, for the most part, the match was pretty even. Both decks contain solid hand disruption...so it was in a way all about who went first. We exchanged shots back and forth, and I lost game 1 to a Juzam Djinn. I comboed out, but he had the Edict in hand to kill off the DSC. I didn't think he was playing them, I mean, I haven't seen Fakespam play that deck in a very long time...so I didn't know.

Game 2 I went first and crippled him with early disrupt and got the DSC out for the win.

Game 3 was alot tighter. He resolved a Juzam, I had out the Gamekeeper, but I couldn't draw anything soon enough to knock the Edict out of hand and with a Deed out, I couldn't stop the four casting-cost over-priced Arabian Nights Djinn. I was stuck on three lands, and he got the W. It was really close, and given the fact that early disrupt can hurt just about any combo deck paired along with the fact that nobody has or plays their 4 Juzam Djinns, I think I did as well as I could have. I wasn't beaten soundly, it was a good, solid game that could have swung either way.

He won the die roll, and the round. :cool: Congrats Fakespam...

At any rate, I went 3-1 that tournament with the deck and won out my last 3 rounds. Still, I didn't make top 4 due to tie-breakers paired with an awful Altered Prices method of determination of playoffs.

GRAH
06-09-2005, 02:01 PM
Yay for Open!

Anyway, Brushwagg, I think you really need to get those Chains. They're an invaluable tool versus Solidarity, as they can essentially shut the deck down. I think Cranials can definitely be dropped for Roars, though.

Ray D 3
06-09-2005, 10:20 PM
This may be somewhat trivial, but for purposes of pithing needle, I think it would be a good idea to split you fetchlands:

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Btw, I think you are completely out of your mind for going under 4 Deeds. Also, I think Living Wish should never have been cut. It only takes at most 5 sb slots, and there have been just too many games where I couldn't find Gamekeeper in time. There is only so much time disruption can buy [glare]

Brushwagg
06-09-2005, 11:28 PM
Btw, I think you are completely out of your mind for going under 4 Deeds. Also, I think Living Wish should never have been cut. It only takes at most 5 sb slots, and there have been just too many games where I couldn't find Gamekeeper in time. There is only so much time disruption can buy

I have to disagree with you on the 3x Deed. I really never have trouble finding one, and needing to blow more than one.

As far as the Gamekeeper being MIA ya it happens sometimes. But the deck list is not set in stone, if you feel you need to run Living Wish/Worldly Tutor go ahead. When I was testing out this deck at first I ran both with a tool box in the board. I may go back to LW also, because if the Gamekeeper fails, which is not often, SpiritMonger or whatever is ready to come in swinging.

Rag Man
06-10-2005, 11:59 AM
To address several points:

The problem you have to understand with Living Wish is that it is basically a Time Walk for your opponent. You Living Wish to retrieve something, then you have basically given them a full turn to kill you or find an answer to whatever you wished for. I'm assuming it would be a for a Gamekeeper, but if you don't run 4 in the maindeck anyways, then you're asking for trouble. The deck is technically combo, so by running one less of the most important cards in your deck you are crippling your chances of comboing out. You have enough discard to supplement casting a Gamekeeper.

And you definitely do not want to run 4 Deed...as that is just overkill. If you take a look at the deck list, you would understand why 4 Deed is just too much. You run Naturalize, Edicts, Decrees, and Charms...with 3 Deeds. That is sufficient in my metagame.

The fetchland selections are basically set in stone, as the least of my worries are someone casting Pithing Needle naming one of my fetchlands. It is a sideboard card at most against me...and even then it is useless.


There is only so much time disruption can buy

Considering most decks that run discard aim to cripple an opponent the first several turns, I'd hope this was obvious to begin with. Unfortunately, in this particular deck that does not apply overall. Unless you feel like taking the chance (and I have) I always protect my Gamekeeper unless I feel like going balls to the walls.

Elvenwish
06-10-2005, 09:02 PM
In testing today I also had an issue getting to Gamekeeper at times. I understand the deck runs a great deal of disruption but it just felt like there were too many times were I just couldn't get to the Gamekeeper in time. In every other combo deck there are ways of searching for the pieces to the combo. With this deck's surrent incarnation, you really have none aside from Night's Whisper. Yes, Living Wish is a Time Walk on turn two but turn three you can Duress or Therapy along with Wish. On Turn four you can Hymn along with Wish. Coupled with the damage you have done to their hand by turn three, Living Wish shouldn't allow your opponent too much time to recoup.

Ray D 3
06-10-2005, 09:34 PM
The problem you have to understand with Living Wish is that it is basically a Time Walk for your opponent. You Living Wish to retrieve something, then you have basically given them a full turn to kill you or find an answer to whatever you wished for.

I know it slows you down, but It gives you ways to find Gamekeeper and gives you options. With gamekeeper as a mere 4 of, in my experience you can't always find it in time. I'd rather lose a turn to wish than give my opponent countless turns to break through my control elements.


The deck is technically combo, so by running one less of the most important cards in your deck you are crippling your chances of comboing out. You have enough discard to supplement casting a Gamekeeper.

How exactly is adding more ways to find your single combo piece going to decrease you chances of comboing out. Also, it decreases the chance of running into another gamekeeper via gamekeeper.


And you definitely do not want to run 4 Deed...as that is just overkill. If you take a look at the deck list, you would understand why 4 Deed is just too much. You run Naturalize, Edicts, Decrees, and Charms...with 3 Deeds. That is sufficient in my metagame.

I have not only looked through the deck quite thoroughly, I have playtested it a great deal, and in that testing, I have found Deed to be quite good as a 4 of. Perhaps it is a meta difference.


The fetchland selections are basically set in stone, as the least of my worries are someone casting Pithing Needle naming one of my fetchlands. It is a sideboard card at most against me...and even then it is useless.

You do realize the fetch-lands are EXACTLY the same. Just the names are different. Why the hell would you not make this change if you could. It is obviously a very irrelevent tweak, but there is no reason not to do it.



There is only so much time disruption can buy

Considering most decks that run discard aim to cripple an opponent the first several turns, I'd hope this was obvious to begin with. Unfortunately, in this particular deck that does not apply overall. Unless you feel like taking the chance (and I have) I always protect my Gamekeeper unless I feel like going balls to the walls.

What I meant was that you only have so many turns your disruption can buy you, and if you do not find gamekeeper, you are screwed. Therefore, it makes more sense to have more ways to find it.



@Brushwagg: In the off chance that you do need a finisher as a board slot, Kukusho would be much better. It flies, and due to your ability to sac it, can be a turn faster. I would much rather keep the wish targets low and the actual sb count high, so I wouldn't bother with it.

GRAH
06-10-2005, 10:39 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I've won games with The Game without even drawing into a Gamekeeper, from sheer Treetop Village beats. You'd be surprise how 3 damage a turn, protected by huge ruption and Deed, can win. That's why I don't think Living Wish is entirely necessary.

Ray D 3
06-10-2005, 10:47 PM
I've done the same, but it is still a horrible situation to be in. Also, yes, deeds are good.

xenoq
06-11-2005, 12:19 AM
How do you win when you oath up your game keepers? How?

Deleted unnecessary flames.



Edited By Jander78 on 1118507832

Raider Bob
06-11-2005, 12:20 AM
I have always been an advocate for 4 deeds in the deck. Rag Man is correct however in the Syracuse meta game where Landstill and Solidarity reign supreme Deed is probably a 3 of meta call.

In team playtesting the main problem with the deck is your always fighting to get the Keeper out. A few tweeks were made to speed up deck manipulation and all have been quickly dismissed with all the decks incarnations. If only black had a draw engine as in the days of Necro/Bargin brokeness black would be good again, tho green isn't really giving any real draw capabilities.

The deck needs 1 of 2 things to make it a lot stronger

A: More draw, somethings to compliment Nights Whisper.

or

B: A Demonic/Vampiric Tutor, living wish is close but sometimes you need a Cabal Therapy for teh W.

GRAH
06-11-2005, 09:04 AM
How do you win when you oath up your game keepers? How?
You obv flashback one of the Therapies the first one put into your grave and go off again. Now, try not acting like an idiot.

Bob: It may just be my svg mizing skills, but I usually draw Games. I don't really find the Wishes/tutors necessary, with Whispers and fetchlands to thin. Also, note that I've dropped the Decrees for Deed 4 to bring it down to 60 cards.



Edited By Jander78 on 1118507851

Hoojo
06-11-2005, 12:15 PM
A: More draw, somethings to compliment Nights Whisper.



Well, there is Skeletal Scrying and Sylvan Library. Both are tough to use, but they do get the job done. I've noticed that this deck goes into topdeck mode pretty fast as well. I'm going to try fishing around with some added draw and see what happens.

Ray D 3
06-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Bob: It may just be my svg mizing skills, but I usually draw Games. I don't really find the Wishes/tutors necessary, with Whispers and fetchlands to thin. Also, note that I've dropped the Decrees for Deed 4 to bring it down to 60 cards.
I would credit this to one of 3 things: Mizorly luck (a.k.a. statistical rarity), you don't play enough (lack of sufficient sample size) , and/or you just don't realize how often it happens.

I suggest keeping a running tally of how often you needed gamekeeper and couldn't find it in time.

It has just been my experience that 4 is not enough. If 4 works for you, fair enough, but please make sure it does.

xenoq
06-11-2005, 01:29 PM
What if Cranial Extraction resolves naming Cabal Therapy? GFG?

Savage T1 tech is to add Goblin Bombardment so you can keep saccing your Gamekeepers. Also Flings Darksteeel for that extra point.

Rag Man
06-11-2005, 03:32 PM
What if Cranial Extraction resolves naming Cabal Therapy? GFG?

Savage T1 tech is to add Goblin Bombardment so you can keep saccing your Gamekeepers. Also Flings Darksteeel for that extra point.
Umm...okay...first off:

No one in Syracuse plays Cranial Extraction in their 1.5 decks. So that doesn't worry me at all.

Secondly, nobody I've seen in Virginia plays Cranial Extraction in their 1.5 decks, so that doesn't worry me at all either.

Your point is not valid to any degree, that is like saying I'll play Trade Caravan and swing 20 turns for the win...gfg.

I play enough discard in my deck to knock a Cranial Extraction out of their hand quite early. Second of all, Cranial Extraction is a black magical card. Black magical cards tend to have to be top-decked in most instances. So I'm not too concerned about that either. And I don't scoop to Cranial Extraction, I have Edicts, Deeds, and Decrees of Pain to kill the damn thing. So know what your saying before you say something in my deck's forum...and not things like my deck sucks dick...which according to the six thousand plus times this deck has been seen and the tournaments it has placed in and the fact that it is nearly optimized anyways paired along with it placed in a contest that is way out of your league...it doesn't suck. Sorry to hurt your feelings.

Fling is awful. It is red. My deck is black and green with a red card that I'm more likely to hit than Fling because I don't have to actually cast it.

Goblin Bombardment is God-awful. I play a total of four creatures I'd want to throw at an opponent, and the Edicts and Decrees serve a dual-purpose to do that job anyways. Bombardment serves one. It is also red.

~HWooD~ :angry:

FakeSpam
06-13-2005, 08:17 AM
What if Cranial Extraction resolves naming Cabal Therapy?
Of all of the cards in the deck, you are going to take out cabal therapy?

That was a joke, right?

edgarps_22
06-13-2005, 02:38 PM
Here is the best question. What does this deck do against a Coffin Purge?

GRAH
06-13-2005, 02:50 PM
Here is the best question. What does this deck do against a Coffin Purge?
...not care? The only deck that even plays Coffin Purge anymore is this one.

edgarps_22
06-13-2005, 02:57 PM
A well timed Purge will stop the Gamekeeper from "Oathing." It can completely ruin your day, and making someone discard it will not help in any way.
As for anyone running it, I run it in all my Side Boards when I am playing a deck that runs Black.

midnightAce
06-13-2005, 03:42 PM
The Game does run plenty of hand disruption to knock out your Coffin Purge way before comboing out. So the Purge sits in your grave. The Game player can either remove the Purge and then combo, or draw into multiple Gamekeeper and then combo. Having a "visible" reactive spell sitting in the grave has no element of surprise and can be played around.

If for some reason beyond my imagination that a meta is full of Coffin Purge users, the deck can adapt by inclusion of Living Wish very easiely.

Rag Man
06-13-2005, 03:51 PM
And again, don't forget that there are 3/3 trampling treefolk in my deck too. I don't fear Coffin Purge. You must understand something...every deck has a natural foil, no matter how resilient it may seem. There will always be one card that can ultimately ruin someone's day. Coffin Purge doesn't scare me a bit. If my metagame starts running rampant with them, then welcome back good old Living Wish. I don't care about Coffin Purge. I run it in my board because it is in most instances better than Tormod's Crypt and is an instant which when milled from a Gamekeeper is kind of cool to flash it back.

Look at Dragon when it dominated the old 1.5. Go up to any experienced Dragon player and say to them, "What happens if I StP your Dragon?". They don't care...and that's the reason why Dragon was so good is because it worked around things like that and no matter how much hate you run, its consistency and resilience it what made it win.

edgarps_22
06-13-2005, 04:28 PM
I amnot throwing it out as a "End Game Answer." Morely to make a point that Coffin Purge should be accounted for. Yes it means that the deck will need some adjustment. That adjustment seems to be the next step to improve it.

@ MidnightAce
Most people right now are finding it semi-difficult to get 1 Gamekeeper. In that case 1 Purge is all that is needed to put a stop to that plan. Rag Man's argument is much more solid in that he runs other kill conditions as well. Arguing that you will have more than one is a moot point. It almost never happens, means it is near the late game, in which it is even easier to stop.

By the way, I love this deck. I am currently trying to get the peices to build it. I just want it to be even more resilient than it is now. I guess Living Wish is one idea. Or other kill conditions mixed in somewhere.

Hoojo
06-13-2005, 04:54 PM
After several rounds of testing, I do believe you should make room for 2-3 Skeletal Scryings. The boost this card has given me is incredible, like pulling games out of my ass incredible. Even if you can only grab 2 or 3 cards, you are immediately back in the game. No pun intended. I'm running a bit of a different list than yours, so I'm not sure what I would pull from yours. If you would like to see my tweaks, tell me and I'll post, but put your coconuts together and try to sqeeze these in.

GRAH
06-13-2005, 07:26 PM
There are two problems with your Coffin Purge question, edgarps.

1. No one really plays Coffin Purge, even in black decks.
2. There aren't that many highly-played black decks anyway.

I don't see Coffin Purge as a threat to this deck until it starts hitting the mirror.

Brushwagg
06-13-2005, 08:08 PM
OK... IF and only IF Coffin Purge sees high enough play I might start caring and I'll start boarding Ground Seal.

@Hoojo:Skeletal Scrying seems like a alright fit. How did you make room?

Who else found this funny?

What if Cranial Extraction resolves naming Cabal Therapy? GFG?


I still can't stop laughing at this. If someone played CE on me and named Therapy, I'd probably have to get up from the table to laugh.

EDIT:Can we please stop on Coffin Purge please? It's getting old quick.

bigredmeanie
06-13-2005, 10:17 PM
Living Wish seems like a good way to fetch Gamekeepers when you want them, as well as other silver bullet creatures in your board. It's a good card, and can get Colossus back from Swords. If you don't like that, than a small splash of white can get you Eldamari's call.

Commune with nature and Worldly tutor are also choices.

edgarps_22
06-13-2005, 10:45 PM
I believe that Living Wish is a good call. Yes it makes it thins the deck even more but it does allow for more answers to things like Coffin Purge, Swords to Plowshares, and others that may show up.

@ Grah
I am merely posing a question that points out a weakness in the deck. Since it does stop the deck from doing what it is supposed to, it should be at least thought about.

@ Brushwagg
I think you have the right idea. Ground Seal is a very good way to stop it. And is general enough to stop other decks as well.

Mostly I brought up the card simply because it is a weakness in the deck. Making someone discard it will not help in any way. Thus getting around what the deck does to prevent things like Swords to Plowshares from working. Basically meaning that if "The Game" starts showing up more and more, than this card will be a threat that needs to be answered. It may not be now, but it is good to be prepared.

Hoojo
06-14-2005, 09:58 AM
You don't have to agree with my choices, but I dropped 2 Decree of Pains, 1 Pernicious Deed, 1 Hymn to Tourach, and 2 land to bring my land count to 21 and added 3 Sickening Dreams and 3 Skeletal Scryings. The numbers are still being debated, but I think the 21 land is working well; I was constantly getting land flooded. The Decree's were too expensive; I was winning by the time I had the mana to cast them. As for Pernicious Deed, it would show up all the damn time in multiples. Hope this helps.

EDIT: Looks like I need to update my list...I hadn't realized that the last list was using 21 land. :D

XxCoffinxX
06-14-2005, 10:29 AM
i am intrigued by this deck and just a question but how does it match up with sligh or burn? it seems it would have a tough match up with these two decks..would 1 serra avatar be a decent addition to the deck? or would it just be a dead draw? or even -2 forests +2 savannahs just in case of a dead draw? im probably sounding stupid about now but it was an idea do with it what you want

Edit: -3 forest +3 savannah sorry forgot it was a trip white...

Elvenwish
06-14-2005, 11:58 AM
How does Serra Avatar help against Sligh or Burn? It seems counter intuitive to me. Burn is going to toast you way to quickly for the Avatar to be anything but a destructible Colossus without trample by the time you get it out. Turn 4, burn shoudl have you below 11 easily,een with the hand disruption. The splash of white also makes the deck rather prone to Wasteland, something that even now can be a bit frustrating.

As for the Wish debate, until hate for this deck becomes prominent, I have found Worldly Tutor to be best. Being able to run six Gamekeepers (4 Keepers & 2 Tutors) in the deck has improved my consistency a great deal. Oce hate starts showing itself around here I will most likely turn to Living Wish to allow for more flexibility, running 3 maindeck. (Six "Keepers" maindeck just feels right.)

Thanks for making this deck. It rocks!!!

Brushwagg
06-14-2005, 12:18 PM
Serra Avatar: THUMBS WAY DOWN. If your meta is filled with a ton of Burn/Sligh I think a better choice for the board would be Ancestor’s Chosen. Since this deck can put alot of cards in the graveyard quickly. You can easily gain alot of life, something burn really hates to see.

@Hoojo:I like the look can you keep us posted on how well that works out for you.

@ElvenWish:I to have debated putting Worldly Tutor back in. More testing will tell if it needs to go back in.

cartman34
06-14-2005, 12:48 PM
Why don´t you just play Nishoba instead of crap like Ancestor’s Chosen or Serra Avatar if Sligh is a problem.

Also since Oath is running Akroma over Colossus in Type 1 why don´t you run Akroma instead?I mean sure there are not that many Welders in 1.5 but Akroma also kills 2 rounds after it gets online it doesn´t cause to tap when you attack with it which is very important in a meta filled with Aggro Decks.It can also block flying creatures like exalted angel.

XxCoffinxX
06-14-2005, 01:09 PM
ok ok im sorry....after thinking it over....Serra Avatar IS a bad card choice....but...what about eternal witness? something in the grave yard you need? (game keeper, deed, etc) you just take it back. Or am i wrong with this choice too?

GnomesofZurich
06-14-2005, 01:23 PM
XxCoffinxX: Nice try, however Eternal Witness was tried in the early incarnations of this deck, and found to be a problem because it gives another target Gamekeeper can hit when trying to get Colossus. There is already a single copy of Regrowth for recursion, and Living Wish (as some people have suggested incorporating) allows for a pseudo-recursion effect as well.

Although it's a somewhat daunting task, I'd suggest you read through the entire thread, which will cover some of the questions you bring up.

Jander78
06-14-2005, 01:30 PM
Please read the entire thread before making already suggested suggestions. This thread is starting to go in circles.

Brushwagg
06-19-2005, 09:44 PM
Ok I got some real bad news. I played the Game today and didn't do so hot. Although it was teams, and we played both played The Game. Maybe this deck isn't so good in teams or we need to get a better draw engine. The problem wasn't fiding Gamekeeper at all, it was keeping the discard/board control coming. This is what made us lose the matches. In the Games we won everything fell into place. There is nothing better then have 2-3 DSC on the board at the same time :)

I put in 2x Skeletal Scrying (thanks Hoojo for the idea) in place of the Funeral Charms and they worked out great. I was also thinking in some games damn I wish I had Brainstrom. I may try it out or some other form of draw. Hollywood suggested Lim-Dul's Vault. Maybe this was just because, as I said it was in teams. But we may need to find something.

Rag Man
06-21-2005, 03:07 PM
Just as a sidenote, I will be running this on Saturday at the Amrod's tournament. I added the Skeletal Scryings back in and am playtesting them. I am playing them while cutting various cards to see how it interacts with different scenarios the deck could potentially face, so there is no indefinite cut on my main list thus far, hopefully it works as well as I think it can because as Brush stated earlier, the deck is quite solid but can sometimes face problems when it comes to drawing cards.

GRAH
06-21-2005, 09:47 PM
What's the build that you'll take to Amrod's?

danyul
06-22-2005, 07:21 AM
This may be a bit random, but has anybody ever thought about Skulltap?

1B - Sorcery - As an additional cost to play Skulltap, sac a creature. Draw two cards.

I read a page or two back that the deck needed more draw. This might help. Just a suggestion.

Peter_Rotten
06-22-2005, 08:11 AM
Well, I think that the deck needs the draw to find the Gamekeeper. Skulltap, while an interesting choice and maybe playable in this deck, does nothing to find the Gamekeeper. If The Game has the Gamekeeper in play, sac-ing it or getting it killed hardly seems to be a problem.

GRAH
06-22-2005, 11:45 AM
danyul, in this deck, Skulltap is really no better than Night's Whisper, and is much more situational.

I don't think I'm entirely sold on Skeletal Scrying. It seems like too much mana for too few cards.

Could Pain's Reward fit in that spot? Sure, it's not entirely reliable, but it can be 2B for either 4 cards or quite a bit of life loss towards your opponent.

Hoojo
06-22-2005, 12:25 PM
Trouble is, this deck runs 6 fetches and Night's Whisper. If you use half of these in a given game, thats 7 life. I realize Skeletal Scrying doesn't help in this, but I don't like playing a numbers game with my opponent when I NEED a Gamekeeper.

If you don't like Skeletal Scrying, I would try a tutor of some sort. I run 4 Night's Whisper, 3 Skeletal Scryings, and I am trying to work in a Worldly Tutor, because getting a Gamekeeper is critical. I have had a few matches in which I've pushed my opponent into top deck mode, but no Gamekeeper. The manlands help win these kind's of matches, but I want to up the consistency of the combo.

Brushwagg
06-22-2005, 12:32 PM
Maybe this just isn't a teams deck. I wasn't having a problem finding Gamekeeper, it was keeping the pressure on, ie hand disruption, or board control. Then other games everything fell into place and we crushed the other team. Although I do agree that a better drawer is needed. I'm trying a Blue splash for TfK in the Nights Whisper spot.

Reasoning for TfK:
1. It's an instant
2.Helps feed Skeletal Scrying
3.Discards DSC/DB if needed. Also free shuffle with DSC.

I've only played a couple of games since I made the change. When I play more I'll post to giv you guys the Thumbs up or down.

Noman Peopled
06-23-2005, 07:18 PM
I actually build something like that a while ago ... although to be fair, your current listis much better what I had come up with. So thanks for reinstating my confidence in this deck.

md
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Sickening Dreams
4 Tainted Pact
4 Unmask

3 Living Wish
3 Gamekeeper

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Defense Grid
2 Darksteel Colossus

1 Dragon Breath

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Snow-covered Forest
4 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Swamp



This is what I posted in a different forum.
Please take note that I haven't tested it yet. The card drawing is suboptimal but I just tried streamlining the deck for speed - thus Living Wish and Pact over Whisper.

@ Wish: unless you want to play your Keeper second turn off a Ritual, you will be able to play Wish on turn two or three without much interferance to your disruption. (I play Unmask over Hymn but that might change, depending on how the draw works out.)

@ discard outlets: I have plenty of sac-outlets, but I'm not confortable with Therapy as a way to get a DSC into your library. Sure, it's good to know and will win games fairly often, but still I wish I had something more worthwile. Wish for Putrid Imp isn't exactly what I call optimal, but I'll go with that for a while.

@ Swarm is great, it provides Therapy fodder at worst and can easily be Wished for before you go off. Boseiju is as good, however, except for Wasteland. Control doesn't play all that many, though.

@ Dragon Breath: again, Pact stands in my way. Sure, it digs A LOT deeper than Whisper, but it makes the DSCs and especially Dragon Breath more unreliable. Possible replacements?

@ Defense Grid: might go for Hymn. However, it's more reliable against control and also stops Coffin Purge :p, Swords (just for a turn, but hey, if the DSC is hasted, that's something).

@ blue: several people have suggested using a blue splash for TFK and the like. Imo there's absolutely no excuse to not play FoW when playing blue except being low on blue. That shouldn't be much of a problem, though, as blue would replace all card drawing in the deck and add MisD and some other disruption to the mix. That would also help against creature removal and bounce.
The mana base is the only problem, though. I'll definitely be testing UBG.

@ white: while the Salvagers combo is probably a better way to win than than DSC, provided your build is a bit more controllish, there's really no need for white outside of Salvager itself. Playing four LEDs might offset that problem but why do that?
Also, if you start sacrificing a 4CCC creature just to make sure you find a 4CCC creature, there's something wrong here.
//Edit: well, you could also play Eternal Witness in the side just to get that LED out of your graveyard, but it slows you down a full turn and makes the combo a three-parter ... meh.

However, I'm not sure about DSC as the win condition. Thanks to zero library manipulation, it's the only option (except for Salvager and the like) in a BG build, but UBG could easily support an Akroma or even two which are much better on defense.

/Edit: I was just thinking, what about two/three Defense of the Heart (possibly with a Nishoba) against aggro?

Brushwagg
06-23-2005, 11:40 PM
@ Noman: Did you read the first page? That is pretty much the list we are discussing right now(it's been updated). Ya some of us have slightly different cards in it then others but we are all pretty close to it. Also the list on the first page got 3rd in a pretty big tourney. I know you mean well, it's just that your bringing in a list that basically looks like a list from about 2 months ago.

Noman Peopled
06-24-2005, 03:29 AM
@ Noman: Did you read the first page? That is pretty much the list we are discussing right now(it's been updated). Ya some of us have slightly different cards in it then others but we are all pretty close to it. Also the list on the first page got 3rd in a pretty big tourney. I know you mean well, it's just that your bringing in a list that basically looks like a list from about 2 months ago.
I have, but I still think that the Wish-version is better at least in some metagames and should be discussed as well as the one without.
Also, I can't recall any discussion of Pact, Grid, Unmask, or Boseiju in the text. Well, sry if it's old news. I hope i still added something to chew on, and I do still think that Wish+Pact/Whisper is better in a comboish deck where it fits the curve nicely than just Whisper.

I disagree with both the choice of Funeral Charm and Decree of Pain, though. To be fair, I haven't done much testing with this particular deck yet, but in my testing the Charm was somewhat annyoing, sucky at discarding and sucky as a creature kill. (Okay, so it gives fear too.) I think with this card in particular you'd be better off with some general disruption, say Unmask, Grid, or Pithing Needle (which also helps against Welder). Or just creature kill.
I can't see why you would play Decree over the fourth Deed. A draw spell would also seem superior, as it would get you to a Deed as well as make the combo faster.
Regrowth doesn't seem to do all that much, but I'll take your judgment on that.
Is Cabal Therapy your only way to shuffle DSC back in? Well, if it's enough, I won't complain but I'd still feel more comfortable with more outlets.

Brushwagg
06-24-2005, 12:25 PM
@3 Deeds:This seems to be good number, I have really never needed to use more than 2.

@Decree of Pain:Ya it costs 5 to cycle, but the cycling makes it pretty good.

@Regrowth:I have to agree with you on this. It really doesn't do much, so I put in Nostalgic Dreams. It allows the discarding of DSC and can bring back multiple cards. This slot may become Sylvan Library again.

@TFK:Currently I'm testing it, I'm not to happy with it but I've only tested a few games with it. Also on the testing list are Deep Anal, Serum Visions, Brainstorm and Impulse. (not in any order).

Rag Man
06-24-2005, 12:28 PM
I disagree with both the choice of Funeral Charm and Decree of Pain, though. To be fair, I haven't done much testing with this particular deck yet, but in my testing the Charm was somewhat annyoing, sucky at discarding and sucky as a creature kill. (Okay, so it gives fear too.) I think with this card in particular you'd be better off with some general disruption, say Unmask, Grid, or Pithing Needle (which also helps against Welder). Or just creature kill.
I can't see why you would play Decree over the fourth Deed. A draw spell would also seem superior, as it would get you to a Deed as well as make the combo faster.
Regrowth doesn't seem to do all that much, but I'll take your judgment on that.
Is Cabal Therapy your only way to shuffle DSC back in? Well, if it's enough, I won't complain but I'd still feel more comfortable with more outlets.
Hmm...I would take a second look at those Funeral Charms. They say "target player chooses and discards a card"...which if you want to, your DSC. Plus, you should look at Charm as 2 for one advantage. A fourth Deed just doesn't compliment the deck correctly in my metagame. All it does is create one more dead draw against Solidarity, so depending on your metagame, you could run a fourth Deed. I, however, am not an advocate of it based upon the meta. Decree of Pain is a solid draw because it kills hordes of creatures instantly, and you draw a card. Think of it this way: You have 5 mana, you sacrifice Deed for 2...killing all their creatures 2 casting cost or less. On the other hand, you have 5 mana. You cycle Decree, which cannot be countered. You kill all their creatures 2/2 or less, AND you draw a card. Go figure.

Pithing Needle is not good in this deck. The reason for that being is you already play Naturalizes, Deeds, and enough discard where if a Survival resolves are some other card you truly hate, it won't matter because it won't remain on board. That is just me, though, because alot of people are gonna run it in thier boards, and they can if they want to. My list is tight, so the Needle needs playtesting before I cut more important sideboard choices for it.

GRAH
06-24-2005, 04:12 PM
Hollywood, have you thought about Hideous Laughter over Decree of Pain? The Laughter's lessened cost seems to make it the optimal choice.

Bastian
06-24-2005, 05:51 PM
Hollywood: I like the deck concept because it remembers me so much of Oath. Well, Gamekeeper's a one-shot Oath. The problem, which many seem to be pointing (and the main reason I don't like the deck that much) is because it doesn't have enough draw.

Do you mull aggressively to draw into what you need? You said earlier on that the deck could use more draw. Have you made plans to add blue to the deck?

Things like Decree of Pain are nice, sure they do draw... but paying 5 to draw a card (even if its cycle effect does act a mini-wrath) isn't going to make for the lack of better card drawing. Have you tested blue?

Brushwagg
06-25-2005, 09:06 AM
@Bastian:I know you direscted your question to Hollywood, but I think I might be able to answer. I'm not sure if Hollywood, or anyone else for that matter is testing blue, but I am. Right now I'm testing TFK, but I' not to happy with it. Next I think I' going to test Brainstorm. Basically there is only 6 slots that could fit extra draw in. As far as Decree of Pain. This is really good in at least our meta. There is a lot of Landstill and having basically an unconterable board clearer is good. This is probably a meta slot.

@Mulls:This takes some getting use to. Pretty much I'll keep if I see 2-3 discards, Treetop/Gamekeeper some lands, maybe a drawer. I think I'm explaining bad. I pretty much auto mull if I see DSC, but I've kept a few because of the strength of the rest of the hand.

This deck can win by either comboing out, or controlling the board and doing Treetop beatdown, or controlling the Board doing Treetop beats then send DSC to finish the job.

Rag Man
07-07-2005, 02:11 PM
Just a sidenote, I top 4'ed again with this deck on Sunday, and beat some pretty good decks helmed by pretty good players. The deck has done superbly well in the Syracuse meta...so we'll see how it does at Big Arse. There aren't really any noticeable changes to the main that I'd make right now, but after Big Arse, I will know for sure what needs to be worked on. The sideboard will see some changes...but I'll keep that a secret until that day =)

I will be there playing and representing the Game. :angry:

Bryant Cook
07-07-2005, 02:37 PM
This deck needs 4x Cranial Extraction sideboard like it or not. The Game would be much harder to kill after it takes away swords, and humility.

Bargoth
07-07-2005, 06:38 PM
How about including Phyrexian Tower or High Market as additional ways to sacrifice the Gamekeeper(they used to be used in various Academy Rector builds)? Also why only two Bayou they seem strictly better than two forest and two swamp esspecially when you have fetchlands?
I think that the idea of adding in Skeletal Scrying is a good one cause after you empty your opponents and your hand with all that discard it seems crucial that you are able to get some cards in hand and get DSC into play to wrap the game up before they draw answers. Maybe drop the Funeral Charms and the Regrowth that would make enough room to add three with 4 Night's Whisper that should be enough draw I would think.
Other than that, cool deck. Discard seems really good in this enviornment, add in Deed and a huge creature... Cool deck!

Rag Man
07-07-2005, 07:13 PM
Hey Bargoth:

Glad to see you take an interest in the deck. The cards you mentioned have already found their way into various builds of the Game. Unfortunately, they didn't work out so well for several reasons. The most important reason for their absence in the mana curve. With the addition of Hymn to Tourach, that being a double black casting cost spell, colorless land drops hurt you bad. The deck functions more like the Rock, but has combo. There are so many different sacrifice outlets for the deck to work with, that those cards would and have hurt.

Also, the reason why the deck plays only two Bayou refers back to non-basic hate. This deck is combo at heart, and any competitive combo player will tell you what I'm about to: You protect it at all costs. With the good supplement of fetch lands, getting out the lands you need is almost never a problem. The mana base for this deck is very stable and very solid, and hasn't given me any trouble since restructuring it about two months ago.

As for Skeletal Scrying, personally, I don't like it in this deck. I've had it in there before, and more often than not, because I play Regrowth and Cabal Therapy and just given the fact that I would much rather spend my mana disposing of my opponent's hand...it doesn't do all that much in this particular deck. Don't get me wrong, the card is great, but I've played it against every deck in the format that is good and it just isn't good enough to retrieve a slot here. It is essentially a dead draw against Solidarity and RGSA. Those decks already have a tough time against the Game, so you need every advantage you can grab. Night's Whisper works great on its own, along with the thinning fetch lands provide.

Refer back to the beginning of this thread, along with the pages upon pages of information citing various tournament outcomes and how the deck became what it is today. The current build has placed highly in every tournament it has competed in since middle May, including a big tournament in Virginia for a Mox. It placed 3rd there.

~HWooD~ :angry:

Brushwagg
07-08-2005, 12:04 AM
The Game has made it on to Star City Games. It can be found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=278901). Although I really don't like the way the list looks.

@Deck change: I don't know if anyone else has tried this yet, but I'm currently testing Brainstorm and liking it alot. While yes I did have to add a couple more duals, but the power of is to great to ignore. Being able to put DB, and DSC back in the deck without wasting a Therapy is awesome.

Basically my drawing looks like this:
4x Brainstorm <--Need I really say anything?
2x Nights Whispers <-- I really like it. But sometimes I wish it said INSTANT. The only reason for adding Brainstorm.
1x Sylvan Library <--I think I may add one more Whispers instead.

I added:
1x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island

Cutting:
1x Swamp
2x Forest

I haven't had mana issues yet, but we will see. This also gives me some more options in the board (which isn't build yet :( ). If anyone has some suggetions for the board please post them.

Rag Man
07-08-2005, 09:10 AM
Yeah, that list from SCG from my build in Virginia has changed somewhat since then. Other than that, the sideboard varies from meta to meta, but I consider cards like Tsunami a staple for my sideboard because of the amount of Islands in Syracuse.

noobslayer
07-08-2005, 03:05 PM
I don't know if anyone had suggested it yet, but have you considered berserk? It makes for a techy way to get rid of your gamekeepers, as well as end a game right there with a DBed Collossus, giving them one less turn to find an answer.

Hoojo
07-09-2005, 01:10 PM
Berserk could also turn a Dragon Breathed Colossus swing into GG. What to cut is tough. I've gone back to the original list and trying to smooth out my tempo issues. Skeletal Scryings were causing too much life loss, but Worldly Tutor was shining. I will let you guys know.

Brushwagg
07-09-2005, 10:04 PM
Skeletal Scryings were causing too much life loss,

Ya I ran into that same problem. Not to mention that mana cost.

I have a thought for a SB card. How about Sundering Titan? Someone over on SCG suggested putting in 1 ST for 1 DSC. I really don't like replacing DSC in the main, because Titan is not going to hurt everyone. But it could be really good when playing ATS, or any other deck running a ton of duals.

Let me know what you think of this SB.
1x Sundering Titan <--7/10 ummm
1x Ancestor's Chosen <--mainly for burn.
3x Tsunami <--Solidarity what?
2x Coffin Purge <--ATS/WeldSUR
2x Avoid Fate <--STP this BITCH
3x Stifle/Flash Counter/Arcane Lab <not sure here. If any at all
3x Cranial Extraction

Other thoughts where Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Crypt, and Cursed Totem.

What I want to try to do is make a board that is not surprised by anything I'll see at Big Arse. Basically try to cover all my bases, but can deal with problem cards ie STP/Edicts/Bounce etc... Let me know what you think. Be brutal if you must.

PS. I don't own Extractions and I'm not betting on getting any before Saturday. :(

noobslayer
07-10-2005, 09:38 AM
Sundering Titan also beckons for the inclusion of berserk, that is if you don't want to get chump blocked all day long.

Nantuko88
07-10-2005, 11:57 AM
After seeing this post I almost immediately built and started to playtest this interesting deck. In my journey I honestly found that dark rituals weren't needed. In their place I added
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Diabolic Edict
1 unmask
(I omited funeral charms for unmask)

I keep the dark rituals in my SB for the control mathup, then speed is needed.

I wont be able to reply for awhile, but that's my post and i am sticking to it.

P.S. This is my first post in almost a year and a half, yay for being one of the first Source members.

GRAH
07-10-2005, 02:20 PM
Rit is definitely needed for the control and especially combo matchups, where you need that turn-2 Game to win.

Don't underestimate Funeral Charm, either. It's spot-kill and discard. Unmask is nice...but more often than not you'll likely be tossing away a different discard tool anyway.

MD Blessings? ...meh. Is Blessing really even that good versus Solidarity at this point?

Brushwagg's SB looks good to me, though I can't imagine seeing enough burn to warrant Ancestor's Chosen. How about Magma Giant instead versus Goblins?

Nantuko88
07-10-2005, 03:08 PM
You have a point. The reason I was using Unmask was because I lack funeral charms, ehh. I will get some soon though.

My other thought for the deck was MD Cranial Extractions. As long as you wait a turn or two to figure out what the opponent has, you can blast into them and get whatever you want, stp, survival, high tide, gamekeeper in the mirror, ect...

It's a great card and I think it may merit a spot. With those in the deck though, rit becomes a necesity.

Brushwagg
07-10-2005, 04:04 PM
I can't imagine seeing enough burn to warrant Ancestor's Chosen

I'm basically basing it on what I saw at the last Amrod's I went to and also Bob's DLD. Alot of burn. Not sure what Magma Giant does. I'll have to look it up and see what I think of it.

On a happier note I was able to find someone that let me use Extractions. So I'm going to edit my board.

GRAH
07-11-2005, 10:19 AM
My other thought for the deck was MD Cranial Extractions. As long as you wait a turn or two to figure out what the opponent has, you can blast into them and get whatever you want, stp, survival, high tide, gamekeeper in the mirror, ect...

It's a great card and I think it may merit a spot. With those in the deck though, rit becomes a necesity.
It's certainly been discussed. I wouldn't MD any more than 2 for safety, and I personally don't find them necessary. A couple in the board couldn't hurt.

Magma Giant is the 5/5 with CIP Pyroclasm.

Comboplayer
07-12-2005, 06:41 PM
In my area there are a lot of creature based decks: goblins, WW, stompy, etc. I have found that the deck can usually race them, but sometimes by the time you get the colossus it is one turn too late--even with deeds. So I've been testing moment's peace. I don't know if this has been discussed earlier or not, but it seems to be working well in a creature heavy environment. I've been running the list on page one:
-2 Decree of Pain
-1 Regrowth
+3 Moment's Peace

I really like this deck. In the old extended environment I played the many different Oath of Druids decks; this deck reminds me of those days.

Brushwagg
07-12-2005, 10:18 PM
-2 Decree of Pain
-1 Regrowth
+3 Moment's Peace


Ya I can see where Moment's Peace can work. The main reason Decree is in there is because Syracuse is pretty much a heavy control meta. Decree can't be countered ,except for Stifle, and it's instant speed kill (bye bye Manlands). Pretty much some cards, ie creature kill, can vary from meta to meta, along with some sideboard slots.

@Comboplayer:Have you tried Infest, Massacre, or Execute(Angel dies)? The first two pretty much house weenies. Massacre can be played pretty much for free aganist WW, or AngelStompy.

syssc9
07-14-2005, 10:23 AM
I like this deck - like it well enough that I built it. I have been reading this thread on and off, in bits and chunks, back and forth, and even though I know I have read all of it at least once, and most of it more than once, I have pretty well confused myself. Will someone (Hollywood?) please post the current optimized deck list so I can compare with my own build? For sake of comparison here's my list:

SPELLS
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Night's Whisper
4 Infest (could also be Innocent Blood)
2 Worldly Tutor
3 Living Wish
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Dragon Breath
1 Dragon Shadow (Should probably be a third Worldly Tutor)

CREATURES
3 Gamekeeper
2 DarkSteel Colossus

LAND
4 Bayou (hardly anyone here plays Wasteland, but YMMV)
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
2 Treetop Village
2 Forest
8 Swamp

SIDE BOARD (Partial - mostly grafted from my Rock toolbox SB)
1 Gamekeeper
1 Bone Shreder
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Spike Feeder (Ravenous Baloth?)
1 Filth
1 Withered Wretch
1 Spirit Monger
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 ? (Decree of Pain?)

This is pretty much a balls-to-wall build. It has 8-9 ways of grabbing a Gamekeeper by turn 2 coupled with enough disruption to give most decks more trouble than they can handle. Speed kills (in this case, hopefully, the opponent.)

I am open to all suggestions/criticisms and would really like to see the current optimized build posted. I like this Deck. Fourth turn Hastened Colossus is fun!

GnomesofZurich
07-14-2005, 11:09 AM
Although I can't speak for Hollywood's most recent version, your build looks decent syssc9. Your mana-base looks pretty good, I agree on cutting down to 2 Treetop Village; they're nice to have around, but I don't want to seem them too often.

I think some copies of Worldly Tutor and/or Living Wish definitely belong. I haven't had much luck with Dragon Breath in testing, so I've pretty much decided to cut it; too often it ends up in my hand with no way to discard it. It's very good in decks where you are likely to dump most of your library into the graveyard, but in this deck that doesn't happen so much. For the few times it's helped me, I feel another card might be a card inclusion in this spot.

As for your Living Wish toolbox:
Gamekeeper and Viridian Zealot both definitely have a place. I've put in a Faceless Butcher rather than Bone Shredder; one nice thing about it is that it could remove a Colossus in a mirror-match, and makes it harder for decks that use Eternal Witness/Genesis/other recursion to get the removed creature back.

I've got one Phyrexian Negator in the toolbox. It serves as an additional win condition against control decks, and as another way to sac Gamekeeper. If the other player knows what the Gamekeeper is going to be fetching, he may be reluctant to deal damage to the Negator, so you can just keep hitting him with it.

Some of the cards in your toolbox may be good inclusions in the Rock, but not so much here. Volrath's Stronghold/Genesis are unnecessary in a deck where your main creatures either don't stay in the graveyard (Colossus) or tend to get removed from the game (Gamekeeper). Spiritmonger/Kokusho I also find to be questionable choices; perhaps one or the other, but sideboard space is sort of tight. Rofellos also might not be great given you're only running 6 forest/Bayou in the deck.

Your remaining choices seem decent, but I wouldn't run my entire sideboard as a toolbox. Including copies of Tsunami/Perish will help against Solidarity and various Survival builds.

As a sidenote, I've been working on a hybrid of this deck and Pox. My experience with Pox decks has shown that one can often wreck the opposing deck, turning the game into a top-deck war...which I then lose, because my opponent is able to recover faster, having more threats. My retaining the strong disruption package and replacing the kill cards with Colossus, you end up with a Pox deck which has a decent clock. So, for lack of a better name, I call it Clock Pox. If anyone is interested, I'll post about it. One cavaet: I have not tested it in any tournaments, as I've spent the last month working in northern Saskatchewan (Canada).

Comboplayer
07-15-2005, 12:27 AM
@Brushwagg: I have tried both Massacre and Infest in the board. I like them both and I think I'll keep one or the other in the board, but I'm liking Moment's Peace more and more in the main deck. It seems to be a good metagame choice in my area. We have very few combo decks and only one landstill deck. The landstill deck is mine as are several of the various combo decks. I play in the Duluth, MN area and I'd say 90% of the decks are creature based/ aggro. We have a lot of little kids playing various green decks.

I can see why Decree of Pain is a good choice in that slot however, and I do like what it can do sometimes. It just seems a bit slow versus aggro. There is another card that is an instant massacre without the alt. casting cost from Champions that may be worth considering too. Hideous Laughter I think it is.

Brushwagg
07-15-2005, 12:04 PM
@Comboplayer: Ya Laughter is pretty good, but in the Syracuse meta there is alot of Landstill. So that is why Decree is in. Pretty much Decree is a meta slot. If your finding that Moment's Peace is working then stay with it. Not every card is going to work in every meta.

There is probably going to be some slight changes to the deck after Big Arse. I know I'm playing The Game, and I think Hollywood is playing it too. It is really going to depend on match-ups.

XxCoffinxX
07-17-2005, 11:09 PM
i played The Game at big arse also...(i was the kidd with the danzig shirt) and i did sooo shitty...i was pissed....im thinking about removing the regrowth for another creature of sorts...i never really drew nor used regrowth for any game winning cards....soooo im either turning it into... dun dun dun... Symbiotic wurm, Verdant Force, or Platnium angel im not sure yet...also i took out funeral charms and the MD naturalize (put naturalize on SB) and moved Lose hope up to MD and i lovvved it...Scry 2 hmmmm cabal therapy and DSC....hmmm DSC is above cabal therapy...switch the order and Boom! i really think Lose hope belongs MD i didnt miss Funeral charm or Naturalize at all LH saved me quite a few times...but not enough to even give me a good record...*sigh*

Brushwagg
07-18-2005, 01:10 PM
That is very interesting. Maybe it was matchups. I used Naturalize alot. Between the Survivals, Crucibles, etc.. I'm keeping them in the main. Also I just love Brainstorm in the deck. It helped alot. Yes my mana base was hurt a little by Wasteland, but never really cost me a game. Except if my Treetop was toasted and I was in beatdown mode.

Although I did horrible (3-4) I was very happy on how the deck preformed. Yes some of my loses where to getting out played, but some came from mana bone. Now I'm not bitching or anything, hey it's going to happen.

As far as the board went. Probably I will be taking out the Sundering Titan. While it helped some games, a couple times it hurt me by nuking my only black source :(

One other thing Crypt sucks. One game I had 1st turn Therapy, and I could've 2nd Gamekeeper but the Therapy got nuked. This is more of a pain in the ass any anything else.

Nantuko88
07-25-2005, 09:01 AM
Do you think The Game will die because of its performance at Big Arse II?

Slay
07-25-2005, 09:14 AM
The Game right now is a terrible metagame choice because of the sheer number of decks playing with fast beats and Swords to Plowshares. That is a terrible matchup for The Game.
-Slay

Hoojo
07-25-2005, 10:28 AM
I don't see The Game dying off, it just needs to be tweaked. I'm still working on a list that can deal with Swords to Plowshares as well as fast beats. Once I get a few things finalized, I'll add a list.

Brushwagg
07-25-2005, 12:14 PM
Well I played the Game at Big Arse. Fast beats are not the problem. I beat Goblins (Decree, and Deed were a house). The biggest problem I ran into was bad luck (mostly not seeing lands ETC..). STP can be a problem yes, that's why you always lead with a Duress/Therapy. Also CE helps the STP problem.
I would suggest giving Brainstorm a shot. I'm very happy with it.

Just because it did bad in one tourney doesn't kill a deck. :angry: :angry: So stop Hatin'

GRAH
07-25-2005, 08:44 PM
Kodama Northside seems like a good metagame choice with all the STPs running around. Plated Slagwurm would be the other choice, but it has an appalling lack of trample and a tendency to be chumped, though more mass-D also boarded could change that.