New to Vintage playing Jace/Snap Control

[Giants1990]

Hello. Now that I've recollected all the Power I sold when I quit Magic in 1997 I'm looking to start playing Vintage, especially with Champs coming to Philadelphia. I chose to play Jace/ Snap Control because I want to play with as many busted cards as possible. Below is my deck list, along with a few questions about certain cards. I'd appreciate any feedback as the format has changed a lot in 16 years.

Land (16)
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
2x Island
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria

Artifacts (11)
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Voltaic key
1x Time Vault
1x Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures (8)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Planewalkers (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Counters (9)
4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
1x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm

Other Spells (14)
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Brainstorm
1x Tinker
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will

A few questions:
1- Is Blightsteel the go-to Tinker target, or should Inkwell Leviathan be considered if there is an increase in Swords to Plowshares in the meta?
2- Is Mana Crypt necessary? I go back and forth on it. Awesome for early Jace/ Tinker, other than that I don't care for it. I find with Dark Confidant it can sometimes be a bit too much life loss. Or am I playing it wrong?
3- I feel like there aren't enough and/or the right mix of counter magic.
4- What is a good sideboard for an unknown metagame for this deck?

I really appreciate any help!

[saspook]

With Mastriano's win in the NYSE Open, white will be more predominately played. Perhaps Inkwell is best suited for the sideboard if you expect people to be bringing in STP.
Mana Crypt is awesome for early Jace, and Jace lets you find Tinker. With the new Planeswalker rule, how many Jace do you want to play?
What do you expect in the meta?

[Giants1990]

With Mastriano's win in the NYSE Open, white will be more predominately played. Perhaps Inkwell is best suited for the sideboard if you expect people to be bringing in STP.
Mana Crypt is awesome for early Jace, and Jace lets you find Tinker. With the new Planeswalker rule, how many Jace do you want to play?
What do you expect in the meta?

I suppose when it comes to Jace I will wait and see how important it becomes to stick him first under the new rules. As for the metagame, I would expect MUD to still be popular, the various fish decks, Gush and other blue control decks and of course a smattering of dredge.

[Giants1990]

Here is my sideboard:

3x Ingot Chewer
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Yixlid Jailer
2x Pyroblast
1x Extirpate
1x Mountain
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Pyroclasm
1x Flusterstorm

Thoughts? Anyone?

[Kirika]

I think we met at Timezone.

I prefer Esper because white gives you Swords to Plowshares and Disenchant for answers to most creatures and artifacts and enchantments. Rest in Peace is also pretty good against Dredge. Devout Witness is pretty good to but sometimes worse then Heretic but it can hit enchantments.

Red does have some advantages like Red Blasts for the Blue mirror and Lightning Bolts for reach.

1. Blightsteel is still the maindeck robot of choices. Winning the game in one swing is still pretty powerful even if people are prepared for it they have to have that answer on hand or they lose. You can sideboard Inkwell if you want for the blue match up. I have trouble finding space for it though. Hurkyl's recall still gets Inkwell though so blight steel is my choice.
2. Mana Crypt is good for early plays but bad in long match ups. Tend to board it out in grindy matches like control or vs workshop.
3. I like 2 Spell Snare. It hits lots of relevant spells like Dark Confidant, Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, Oath of Druids, Spheres, Time Vault, Young Pyromancer. Mental Mistep also is key as it counters Ancestral Recall and Voltaic Key along with Spell Snare and Sword's/Bolts on your Dark Confidants. I only run 2 of those because they are pretty bad versus Workshops and in some match ups.
4. Your board looks decent but you want about 6 anti dredge cards to be sure you draw one. Extirpate doesn't really count here. Dredge is likely popular in no proxy event. Likely Mix it up. I run white so I have Rest in Peace but you should have 1-2 Grafdiggers Cage because they are good versus Oath as well. Replace at least 1 of the spell bombs with a Grafdiggers Cage. Some people like Leylines of the Void but I dislike having to mulligan to have one in my opening hand and if you draw it its hard to cast. Also a good amount of Workshop hate. Heretic is really good if you can resolve it and the basic mountain is necessary so have red to cast Ingot Chewers, Heretic and Bolts.

Take a look at themanadrain.com and the Top Deck Games and other tournament in PA top 8s for some metagame. meta can change pretty drastically depending on who shows up or if some people switch up decks. Workshop was pretty hot for a month but last month there wasn't so many. Generally you have Jace key vault decks, bomberman, u/w control, workshop decks, dredge, oath, cavern humans, merfolk, landstill. Vintage champs metagame will be a big change up because it is 0 proxy and people will be traveling for the event.

[aahz]

Mental Misstep is pretty sweet with Snappy. You probably want some number of them, if only to counter opposing Missteps. Most lists run 2-3 (I'm a fan of 2, but I only run a singleton Snapcaster in Grixis these days).

What is the Extirpate in the board for? Against Dredge, you're better off with something else. Surgical Extraction is better with Snapcasters even though it can be countered, though I still don't see what opponents you'd side it in against.

I like to run some sort of maindeck board control with all the weenies running around these days, but that might just be my playstyle. Engineered Explosives have been pretty good to me as a catch all answer (note the interaction with non-Lodestone sphere effects!). Expect to see LOTS of Young Pyromancer and accompanying Elemental tokens, so make sure you have a plan to cope. The singleton Pyroclasm from the board may not be enough.

Regarding Tinker targets, there is also Myr Battlesphere. It can be easily hardcast with Drain mana, generates permanents against Shops, and will slow down opposing armies where a solitary bot might not be enough. Your deck isn't quite ideal for it, but you have the 3+ Mana Drain prerequisite already covered; throw in a couple of Goblin Welders and it's definitely an option. Inkwell is okay, but only really shines against other blue decks (note that it still gets hosed by Hurkyl's Recall despite the shroud). Dredge laughs at it (because it can even outrace a turn 1-2 Blightsteel sometimes). While it pitches to Force, it also doesn't shuffle back into your library so it can become stranded in your graveyard.

Some other considerations:
Nihil Spellbomb in the main doesn't suck (I'm not the only one to swear by a singleton there). It can shut off opposing Snapcasters/Will/Regrowth, shrink 'goyfs, mess with Deathrite Shamans, shut down Crucible+Waste/strip lock, and give you a chance vs. Dredge Game 1. Worst case scenario it's just a cantrip.

Spell Snare is really good right now. Sooo many things cost 2 mana. Consider 1-2, possibly over Spell Pierce. Keep the Flusterstorms and maybe even add another somewhere. Steel Sabotage can be handy to have somewhere in the 75 as well. Many Grixis players (myself included) play 1-3 targeted discard in addition to counters, usually in the form of Thoughtseize and/or Duress.

Overall, your list looks fairly solid, but I'd recommend a bit more versatile board control to deal with problematic permanents. Take a look at Marc Lanigra's lists (last years Vintage champ, he also has a Top 8 from GenCon last month). Check out morphling.de for tons of recent Vintage Top 4/8 decklists to get a feel for what you might see and how people are sideboarding. Good luck! Welcome back to the best Magic format!

[Giants1990]

Thanks for the thorough replies guys! I since added two Mental Missteps and love them. I also recently cut Merchant Scroll for Vendilion Clique. I just wasnt that impressed with Scroll and when I drew it always wanted it to be something else. I will make some changes tonight or tomorrow and post an updated list. Thanks again!

[aahz]

Thanks for the thorough replies guys! I since added two Mental Missteps and love them. I also recently cut Merchant Scroll for Vendilion Clique. I just wasnt that impressed with Scroll and when I drew it always wanted it to be something else. I will make some changes tonight or tomorrow and post an updated list. Thanks again!
I've been playing without Scroll in Grixis for a while now without missing it at all. Some decks do want it (e.g. Gush, Fire//Ice), but it's not an auto-include.

[Kirika]

@Aahz
Surgical Extraction actually is decent vs control or combo, taking out all their Force of Will or combo peices after you counter one can be pretty good. But you are right Surgical isn't too good vs Dredge, you need something more then removing their Bridges.

Spell Snare counters Young Pyromancer and good old Lightning Bolt kils Pyromancer as well. I do really like Engineered Explosives as a catch all and I run Auriok Salvagers to recur the Engineered Explosives with Trinket Mages to find it but then you have a different deck running a different splash color.

Myr Battlesphere makes you really want to run Welder and if your running Welder you want Baleful Strix and then you want Tezeret and your running a different deck at that point.

I also really like Nihil Spellbomb. If nothing else it cantrips and its nice to not autolose game 1 vs dredge. Although you will still lose most of the time.

I agree on Spell Snare is solid to run as a 2 of. I run Steel Sabotage in the board vs Workshops.

I'm curious what your list looks like.


@Giants1990
I would make the following changes to your list.
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Mental Mistep
+2 Spell Snare


As far as cuts I would Mystical Tutor in addition to Merchant Scroll. Merchant Scroll for Ancestral is less good then it used to be since Mental Mistep got printed. Although Merchant Scrolling for Mana Drain/Force for protection is still a good play if you don't have any other good targets its not really worth running. Mystical Tutor doesn't get you the other half of Vault/Key although it does get you Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker. Mystical for Ancestral is less good then it used to be also because of Mental Mistep and even worse because of card disadvantage of Mystical. 2 Snapcasters was what I was running when I ran Snapcasters. You don't want to many cause you need something cheap in the yard to Snapcast and they are pretty miserable vs Workshops.

I was testing Vendilion Clique and I think if you want discard you actually want good old Thoughtseize as Vendilion Clique is a bit too slow against the combo decks. It can be pretty good vs Control cast off Cavern of Souls though. Finding room for a pair of Thoughtseize has been difficult.

[aahz]

@Kirika
I used to run Surgical Extraction in the maindeck actually. Sometimes it was awesome, sometimes it was mostly useless. The only time it was not on either extreme (therefore being merely okay) was versus Dredge in game one.

As for Battlesphere, I was just trying to broaden the discussion re:tinkerbots rather than push Battlesphere in the "classic" Grixis shell, though technically the Strix/Welder/Tezz decks are still Grixis (at least in color).

While Spellbomb by itself doesn't give you great odds vs. Dredge game one, in combination with maindeck Explosives (or other board control that affects them) and aggressive play (early BSC and/or Vault Key) it makes the matchup reasonable (though definitely still in their favor, but not lopsidedly so). I may be an outlier though because I play Dredge myself regularly so it's not uncommon for me to know the nuances of deck better than my opponent who is playing it. YMMV.

For a long time, I was pretty skeptical about Spell Snare, but that was without actually testing it (except in Landstill). On a whim I threw a couple into Grixis just to try it out and have been hooked ever since. It's hard to overstate how useful they have been. Sabotage is decent. I bounce back and forth on it (and have run it both main and out of the board), but definitely always have 1-2 in my pile of playble cards for tuning Grixis.

Clique is a solid card. I like to run 1-2 along with a Riptide Laboratory sometimes. Thoughtseize also moves in and out, but I never run more than a singleton.





I'm curious what your list looks like.
My most recent list that is worth bothering with was designed to deal with all the Pyromancers I expected to make a run on the format (and that have been flooding Top 8s since): Pyromancer's Garden Party (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1788&highlight=3#place3). I like to play oddball 1-ofs and non-mainstream tweaks for fun (clearly demonstrated by that list), which doesn't always turn out well, at least in terms of actually winning, but keeps me amused.

[Giants1990]

Here's my most recent list, before the Spell Snare discussion.

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, TMS
1 Voltaic Key
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Lightning Bolt

Still updating the board. Thanks for the help!

[Kirika]

@aahz
Battlesphere is at its best in combination with Welder and Baleful Strix which take up another 4 slots and change your deck quite a bit.

I agree on Spell Snare being excellent. So many relevant spells cost 2. Steel Sabotage I been keeping in the board for Workshop matches.

I think if you have black you actually want Thoughtseize instead of Clique. Being able to Thoughtseize turn 1 and take Oath of Druids or Dark Confidant before your opponent can play it is pretty good. You want to attack combo players hand on turn 1 not turn 3 if you don't draw a mox.

Interesting list. Don't like only 3 Dark Confidants though as I like drawing cards. How have the Welder and Deathrite Shaman been working for you?

@Giants1990
Maybe cut a lightning bolt and something else for 2 Spell Snare or maybe just play 61 or you already at 61.

As far as sideboard
1 Mountain (if you don't have it main deck so you can cast bolts and chewers and not get wastelanded)
6 Dredge hate to make sure you draw it. (Leyline, Cage, Jailer, Relic, Spellbomb, Tormod's) Depends on your preference. Cages are good vs Oath of druids too so you might want to have 2 of those. Leyline I don't like cause if you don't draw it in opening hand it costs 4 but other people say its the best since it starts in play and locks them out unless they can remove it.
2-4 Ingot Chewer (workshops)
1 Viashino Heretic (workshops)
1-3 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast (blue decks)
0-2 Steel Sabotage (workshops)
0-1 Pyroclasm (aggro)
0-2 Thoughtseize (if you expect lots of combo)
0-1 Flusterstorm (counters)

[Lans89]

Hello,

Here is my list:

Maindeck
1#Black Lotus
1#Mox Sapphire
1#Mox Pearl
1#Mox Jet
1#Mox Emerald
1#Mox Ruby
1#Mana Crypt
1#Sol Ring
1#Sensei’s Divining Top
1#Voltaic Key
1#Time Vault

1#Blightsteel Colossus
2#Snapcaster Mage
4#Dark Confidant

4#Force of Will
2#Mana Drain
2#Spell Snare
2#Mental Misstep
2#Lightning Bolt
1#Brainstorm
1#Ancestral Recall
1#Thirst for Knowledge
1#Mystical Tutor
1#Vampiric Tutor
1#Hurkyl’s Recall

1#Merchant Scroll
1#Time Walk
1#Tinker
1#Thoughtseize
1#Demonic Tutor
1#Yawgmoth’s Will

1#Tezzeret the Seeker
2#Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1#Library of Alexandria
1#Tolarian Academy
4#Polluted Delta
2#Flooded Strand
2#Island
3#Underground Sea
2#Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1#Mountain
4#Ingot Chewer
1#Hurkyl’s Recall
1#Red Elemental Blast
1#Swan Song
1#Pyroclasm
1#Yixlid Jailer
2#Nihil Spellbomb
2#Grafdigger’s Cage
1#Pithing Needle


I would love to play a 3th Lightning Bolt (because of deathrite shaman, dark confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, Lodestone Golem, Jaces etc.) or even a second Thoughtseize main, but the deck is so tight... In the sideboard I'm still not sure if I should run a Viashino Heretic or Hurkýl's Recall (which is awesome most of the time). Swan Song should be a 2-off to fight both Doomsday Maniac and several Oath decks, but I can't find much room. How good is Viashino really? About gy hate; Its lame enough to run 5 and not meet any dredge players (at least Cage is usefull vs Oath), so I wont make room for 6.

What do you guys usually side out most of the time? I often side out Merchant Scroll and Hurkyl's Recall vs other control decks, but mana crypt or sol ring could be cut too (as I read above)?

Any other comments are also welcome!

Thanks!

[Quasim0ff]

Hello,

Here is my list:

Maindeck
1#Black Lotus
1#Mox Sapphire
1#Mox Pearl
1#Mox Jet
1#Mox Emerald
1#Mox Ruby
1#Mana Crypt
1#Sol Ring
1#Sensei’s Divining Top
1#Voltaic Key
1#Time Vault

1#Blightsteel Colossus
2#Snapcaster Mage
4#Dark Confidant

4#Force of Will
2#Mana Drain
2#Spell Snare
2#Mental Misstep
2#Lightning Bolt
1#Brainstorm
1#Ancestral Recall
1#Thirst for Knowledge
1#Mystical Tutor
1#Vampiric Tutor
1#Hurkyl’s Recall

1#Merchant Scroll
1#Time Walk
1#Tinker
1#Thoughtseize
1#Demonic Tutor
1#Yawgmoth’s Will

1#Tezzeret the Seeker
2#Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1#Library of Alexandria
1#Tolarian Academy
4#Polluted Delta
2#Flooded Strand
2#Island
3#Underground Sea
2#Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1#Mountain
4#Ingot Chewer
1#Hurkyl’s Recall
1#Red Elemental Blast
1#Swan Song
1#Pyroclasm
1#Yixlid Jailer
2#Nihil Spellbomb
2#Grafdigger’s Cage
1#Pithing Needle


I would love to play a 3th Lightning Bolt (because of deathrite shaman, dark confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, Lodestone Golem, Jaces etc.) or even a second Thoughtseize main, but the deck is so tight... In the sideboard I'm still not sure if I should run a Viashino Heretic or Hurkýl's Recall (which is awesome most of the time). Swan Song should be a 2-off to fight both Doomsday Maniac and several Oath decks, but I can't find much room. How good is Viashino really? About gy hate; Its lame enough to run 5 and not meet any dredge players (at least Cage is usefull vs Oath), so I wont make room for 6.

What do you guys usually side out most of the time? I often side out Merchant Scroll and Hurkyl's Recall vs other control decks, but mana crypt or sol ring could be cut too (as I read above)?

Any other comments are also welcome!

Thanks!
No, having 6 hate pieces and not meeting any dredge doesn't matter shit.

You can get really unlucky, and skimp dredge hate and then meet 3 dredge players in a row. Then you are in such a bad shape, that you are bound to hope for t1 tinker or something of that nature.

You have to be prepared, otherwise you just fold to a "large" portion of the metagame.
At least, that's my opinion.

[Lans89]

Hi again,

I know this forum is dead, but I would like to get soem advice on my sideboarding tactics before I go to Annecy:

Maindeck
1#Black Lotus
1#Mox Sapphire
1#Mox Jet
1#Mox Ruby
1#Mox Emerald
1#Mox Pearl
1#Mana Crypt
1#Sol Ring
1#Sensei’s Divining Top
1#Voltaic Key
1#Time Vault

1#Blightsteel Colossus
2#Snapcaster Mage
4#Dark Confidant

4#Force of Will
2#Mana Drain
2#Spell Snare
2#Mental Misstep
2#Lightning Bolt
1#Brainstorm
1#Ancestral Recall
1#Thirst for Knowledge
1#Mystical Tutor
1#Vampiric Tutor
1#Hurkyl’s Recall

1#Merchant Scroll
1#Time Walk
1#Tinker
1#Demonic Tutor
1#Toxic Deludge
1#Yawgmoth’s Will

1#Tezzeret the Seeker
2#Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1#Library of Alexandria
1#Tolarian Academy
4#Scalding Tarn
1#Polluted Delta
1#Flooded Strand
2#Island
3#Underground Sea
2#Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1#Mountain
3#Ingot Chewer
1#Vandalblast
1#Hurkyl’s Recall
1#Red Elemental Blast
2#Swan Song
1#Notion Thief
1#Yixlid Jailer
2#Grafdigger’s Cage
2#Nihil Spellbomb

And here are the sideboard guidelines I have for the most played decks (or I guessed wrong):

MUD
+1 Mountain +3 Ingot Chewer +1 Vandalblast +1 Hurkyl’s Recall
-2 Mental Misstep -2 Snapcaster Mage -1 Yawgmoth’s Will -1 Tezzeret the Seeker

(Burning) Oath
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast +2 Swan Song +2 Grafdigger’s Cage
-1 Toxic Deludge / -1 Hurkyl’s Recall & -1 Yawgmoth’s Will -4 Dark Confidant

Dredge
+1 Yixlid Jailer +2 Grafdigger’s Cage +2 Nihil Spellbomb
-2 Snapcaster Mage -2 Spell Snare -1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Doomsday/Storm
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast +2 Swan Song
-1 Toxic Deludge / -1 Tezzeret the Seeker & -2 Spell Snare -1 Hurkyl’s Recall

BUG Control
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast +1 Nihil Spellbomb
-1 Voltaic key -1 Time Vault -1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Landstill
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast +1 Nihil Spellbomb
-1 Blightsteel Colossus -1 Tinker -1 Mana Crypt

Bomberman
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast +1 Nihil Spellbomb
-1 Blightsteel Colossus -1 Tinker +1 Mana Crypt

RUG Tempo
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Tezzeret the Seeker -1 Merchant Scroll

Almost Broken
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Hurkyl’s Recall -1 Toxic Deludge

GW Haterator
+1 Mountain +1 Hurkyl’s Recall
-1 Merchant Scroll -1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Mirror
+1 Notion Thief +1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Merchant Scroll -1 Toxic Deludge

Any help would be highly appreaciated! Thanks!

[Megadeus]

I'm certainly not a vintage player, but is Notion thief maybe a bit too slow vs Oath?

[Higgs]

I think Notion Thief is both too slow and too narrow for Oath because there are different versions of Oath. It doesn't do anything against Dragon Breath. I've been happy with bringing in 1 Trop + 3 AD from the board but I think it takes up too many slots in the board and doesn't do enough in other matchups to make the cut. I found Cage lackluster because even if you resolve it they can still Decay it the turn after.