[SCD]Encroaching Wastes (M14)

[Mr. Safety]

Recently spoiled at mtgsalvation, link is here:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143653&d=1372996891

If you haven't seen it yet, it enters untapped, taps for one colorless mana, and can be activated for 4 mana to destroy target non-basic land.

So the question is: better or worse than Tectonic Edge? Is this Wasteland variant playable in Modern? My gut says Tectonic Edge is better as a general tool for keeping players off higher land counts, but I can also see this new Encroaching Wastes as a way to punish greedy mana-bases in the late game with a Crucible/Loam engine.

Looking for some discussion specifically here in the Modern forums. I don't see it even showing up to the Legacy party and Standard is irrelivant (although I suspect it will see play there.)

Discuss.

EDITS: The direction of the thread has changed to a general discussion about land-based disruption such as Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter.

[kwis]

I think it's a required 1-of in a Crucible/Loam strategy in order to eat a greedy manabase to the ground. The mana investment outside of that is simply too crushing. I'd want to Expedition Map for this or find it with a Primeval Titan long before I want to draw it natively. In such a resource denial strategy lean heavily on Tectonic Edge to bring the land count down and this card to seal out the game after you cripple them.

[(nameless one)]

What about in Tron?

I sometimes play Modern with mono-blue Tron. I run a single Tectonic Edge in case of mirror or other nuisance lands.

I don't think it will work in other "combo" Tron builds because those decks are both color intensive and rely too much on Tron lands. Mono-Blue doesn't. Does it make sense there?

[kwis]

What about in Tron?

I sometimes play Modern with mono-blue Tron. I run a single Tectonic Edge in case of mirror or other nuisance lands.

I don't think it will work in other "combo" Tron builds because those decks are both color intensive and rely too much on Tron lands. Mono-Blue doesn't. Does it make sense there?

I confess myself unfamiliar with modern and the tron version in particular. However I suspect that you could make the switch if your tectonic edge loops normally yield enough spare mana. I'd probably play 1 of each and heavier towards the edge so you could better manage mana turn to turn.

I would have loved it if they printed the effect at 3 or just reprinted dust bowl though. I think that forcing basic's matter and pushing the format more towards fetch/shock mana base with basics is healthier than some of the decks that just pack the quick lands. Getting some nice policemen effects in the format is the best way to force that change, but I don't think this particular card is strong enough. If there were a really solid Blood Moon/Magus Moon deck that became the DTB I can see that happening.

Isn't Ghost Quarter equivalent to Strip Mine against a lot of Modern decks similar to how Path to Exile is equivalent to Swords to Plowshares if not better?

[Mr. Safety]

I confess myself unfamiliar with modern and the tron version in particular. However I suspect that you could make the switch if your tectonic edge loops normally yield enough spare mana. I'd probably play 1 of each and heavier towards the edge so you could better manage mana turn to turn.

I would have loved it if they printed the effect at 3 or just reprinted dust bowl though. I think that forcing basic's matter and pushing the format more towards fetch/shock mana base with basics is healthier than some of the decks that just pack the quick lands. Getting some nice policemen effects in the format is the best way to force that change, but I don't think this particular card is strong enough. If there were a really solid Blood Moon/Magus Moon deck that became the DTB I can see that happening.

Isn't Ghost Quarter equivalent to Strip Mine against a lot of Modern decks similar to how Path to Exile is equivalent to Swords to Plowshares if not better?

Ghost Quarter is seeing a lot less play recently than Tectonic Edge, because they STILL get a basic land. Most decks play at least a handful of basic lands, if only for Path to Exile. Tectonic Edge allows you to keep folks off of 5-mana bombs, and if they aren't doing anything relevant with 4 lands it can keep opponent's to 3 for a turn. It's a tempo speedbump that hits in the right timezone for modern (turns 4-6) whereas in Legacy Wasteland hits in the timezone of turns 1-3 (typically.) I think the difference is the mana investment. Tectonic Edge only requires 1 to activate, Encroaching wastes takes a whopping 4. Nobody is using Mystifying Maze as a Maze of Ith variant (close similarity) so I don't expect Encroaching Wastes to be relevant...unless some fantastic man-lands are printed soon.

My hope is that enemy-colored dual man-lands (a la Creeping Tar Pit) are printed soon. This new variant seems to be a 1-2 of, and definately not a 4-of in any deck for any format it is relevant in (which is modern and standard.) The other possibility is that a 'karoo' type of land will show up soon that allows for faster mana development.

[JDK]

Ghost Quarter is still the best land against Tron, as it disrupts the Tron and only costs a landdrop. It doesn't matter that much that they get a basic.

[Mr. Safety]

Ghost Quarter is still the best land against Tron, as it disrupts the Tron and only costs a landdrop. It doesn't matter that much that they get a basic.

I would argue that even Ghost Quarter isn't enough to stop Tron. It's a speedbump, and one that easily mitigated by Tron decks. They have inevitability; you need something more than a Ghost Quarter to even mildly slow them down. While I agree that GQ is better against Tron, Tec Edge is better against fair decks, especially greedy 3+ color variants. Tec Edge still hits most man-lands in time as well, so GQ really isn't the right option to be playing right now.

Just my opinion, mind you.

[JDK]

Well, that's why I was talking about tron in particular. Otherwise I agree with you.

[Mr. Safety]

Sure thing; but realize I'm taking it one step further: I think Tectonic Edge should be played over Ghost Quarter in all decks ATM. It still does work against Tron and has relevance against other decks.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Seems like it's a niche card, it's certainly not better than Tec Edge in normal decks. In general, hoping to hit your 5th land drop before your opponent hits their 4th is greedy. Even then, you're not really taking advantage of the turn that they got land screwed by playing some awesome 5 drop, you're blowing up a land with all your mana.

In decks with Gifts Ungiven, Life from the Loam, or Crucible of Worlds, I could see it being a potentially powerful lock piece.

[Davran]

What about in Tron?

I sometimes play Modern with mono-blue Tron. I run a single Tectonic Edge in case of mirror or other nuisance lands.

I don't think it will work in other "combo" Tron builds because those decks are both color intensive and rely too much on Tron lands. Mono-Blue doesn't. Does it make sense there?

I play UW Tron and I don't think I would ever want this over Tec Edge or Ghost Quarter (I currently run a Ghost Quarter in the main). It's too slow vs. RG Tron - by the time you have 4 mana + this they already have Karn in play. The only other place you're really using this is vs. the 4 color pod variants or the occasional utility land and in both situations Ghost Quarter is often a Strip Mine with more words on it.

It's also worth noting that Ghost Quarter is a much better potential "out" to Sowing Salt.

[Finn]

I am wondering about this card in a scenario I have pondered a lot about Modern.

Are there a lot of decks that pack very few basics like in Legacy? If so, has anyone ever seriously tried a strategy of using Path to Exile primarily as a mana accelerator that can also double as removal against certain decks?

A green/white deck with Aether Vial, Deathrite Shaman, and Dryad Arbor can get to five mana fast, especially with Scryb Ranger and Green Sun's Zenith to assure it happens every game.

Turn 1 land, Vial->Arbor.
Turn 2 you have 3 mana plus a Vial at 1. There are about a zillion ways to be at 5 mana by turn three without giving up much of anything if you start with the cards I discussed. And you still have a Vial at 2.

The key to making Path function as a bonafide accelerator is, of course, to either intercept removal aimed at your creatures or to have creatures that you want to take out. I have not quite gotten that far yet as I don't play Modern at all.

[Phoenix Ignition]

GSZ is banned, which kills that idea more than you'd think. Yeah, you could play a lot of accelerants and get to high amounts of mana, but you'd need to have the exact ratio to not just lose with a bunch of mana dorks on the field. Remember Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, and Scapeshift are all combos that are a huge portion of the metagame, so you need to be able to race/beat combo.

Without GSZ you lose your tutor for a big creature that you'd want. That means you have to fill a deck with more fatties if you want to hit them. It just doesn't work well.

[Finn]

Well OK. In that case it sure does look like a non-starter. I appreciate the information.

[Mr. Safety]

One thing that this card definately does for me: it reminds me that Tectonic Edge is in the format, and it's a good card. So many fair decks are using man-lands that it warrents 1-2 slots without a whole lot of argument. Beyond that, Tectonic Edge can be used with Crucible/Loam to keep people at 4 lands or less for the entire game if they are playing a lot of non-basics (and that's pretty much all of the decks in the format, at least the serious ones.)

[Lord Seth]

Sure thing; but realize I'm taking it one step further: I think Tectonic Edge should be played over Ghost Quarter in all decks ATM.
Ghost Quarter is significantly better in G/R Tron than Tectonic Edge.

[Mr. Safety]

Because it can fix your own colors or because it costs only a land drop instead of an extra mana?

[JDK]

Because in the mirror it's about who gets to Emrakul first pretty much. Disrupting Tron in the mirror is pretty significant. Especially for UW against GR.

[Mr. Safety]

Makes sense, I wasn't thinking of it in the mirror.

[JPoJohnson]

The types of decks that run land destruction wouldn't want to pay 4 for the destruction I would imagine. I personally would never run this instead of Tectonic Edge, at least not in any of my current decks.

[Lord Seth]

Because it can fix your own colors or because it costs only a land drop instead of an extra mana?
Because it's much stronger against other Tron decks and because you can much more easily use it to save one of your lands from a Sowing Salt (and in that case you can potentially set yourself back only 1 mana instead of 2).


Because in the mirror it's about who gets to Emrakul first pretty much. Disrupting Tron in the mirror is pretty significant. Especially for UW against GR.
Disrupting Tron in the mirror is significant, but it's not about who gets to Emrakul first. In the G/R Tron mirror, it's who gets to Karn Liberated first. Barring your opponent having something like a Spellskite, casting Karn Liberated essentially wins you the game because not only do you have a strong Planeswalker out, you can easily keep your opponent off Tron.

[Mr. Safety]

A little resurrection for this thread, but only because I want to see what folks think of Ghost Quarter vs. Tectonic Edge. It seems that for the most part fair decks are going with Tectonic Edge x3-4 (judging by Worlds.) Ghost Quarter only showed up in the Gifts deck as a singleton, I'm guessing for a Gifts/Loam setup. It seems that Tectonic Edge seems better overall against most of the decks in the format, but Ghost Quarter is faster against Tron.

Just curious what folks thoughts are.

[kombatkiwi]

A little resurrection for this thread, but only because I want to see what folks think of Ghost Quarter vs. Tectonic Edge. It seems that for the most part fair decks are going with Tectonic Edge x3-4 (judging by Worlds.) Ghost Quarter only showed up in the Gifts deck as a singleton, I'm guessing for a Gifts/Loam setup. It seems that Tectonic Edge seems better overall against most of the decks in the format, but Ghost Quarter is faster against Tron.

Just curious what folks thoughts are.

My team has been testing/playing in events straight GB midrange for the past 2 weeks or so, 4 tec edge maindeck

All decks have at least 1 basic for path to exile reasons so GQ isn't effective at all as a mana denial plan except against tron. Tec edge isn't usually effective as a mana denial plan ever due to the fact that they already need 4 lands in play for you to use it. The reason for playing a bunch of Tec Edges (assuming the rest of your mana is good enough to handle it) is because many lands in this format function as spells (manlands, Gavony Township, etc). In this sense you should really think of Tec Edge like a Doom Blade or a Naturalize than an actual stone rain. Because all of these land-spells aren't good until the opponent has a bunch of mana anyway you might as well use tec over GQ just to avoid giving your opponent an extra land.

If you're worried about Tron tec edge isn't enough (especially if you're the kind of midrangey deck Tron preys on) and I don't know if GQ is good enough either. It's certainly not maindeckable because it's so bad against everything else. You really need something way more high-impact to beat tron if your deck is weak to it like Stony Silence or Sowing Salt or something along those lines

Yes GQ in the gifts deck is mainly for gifts/loam reasons

[Davran]

A little resurrection for this thread, but only because I want to see what folks think of Ghost Quarter vs. Tectonic Edge. It seems that for the most part fair decks are going with Tectonic Edge x3-4 (judging by Worlds.) Ghost Quarter only showed up in the Gifts deck as a singleton, I'm guessing for a Gifts/Loam setup. It seems that Tectonic Edge seems better overall against most of the decks in the format, but Ghost Quarter is faster against Tron.

Just curious what folks thoughts are.

I'm running both right now, but that's because I'm also running 4x Leonin Arbiter and some Aven Mindcensor. With either one in play, Ghost Quarter might as well be Strip Mine, especially vs. all of the greedy mana bases running rampant in the format.

In terms of which is "better", I think it really depends on your meta. If you're looking to shut off Tron, you'll want some number of Ghost Quarter since T3 Tron is a thing that happens. If you're looking for value vs. a bunch of man lands, Tectonic Edge is your man. In either case, Encroaching Wastes might as well be Tectonic Edge since there are no Sol lands in the format, and I'd rather not blow my T4 just to maybe shut off Tron or whatever.

[JDK]

Tec Edge is mainly there to fight manlands and games against other control decks. It's easily maindeckable in most decks and it doesn't put you behind in landcounts. It's just much more versatile despite the limitation on four+ lands.

Ghost Quarter is way worse due to the fact that it puts you behind in lands. It mainly sees play to cripple manabases as hard as possible in combination with Leonin Arbiter (GW Hatebears). It's also there in Tron-decks to get an edge in the mirror and also have an out to manlands and opposing Eye of Ugin, Boseijus and what-not.