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Zilla
11-14-2004, 09:04 PM
INTRO:
The following is a project I've been working on since about a month before September's B/R changes. I never released the list, as I wanted to do a more thorough matchup analysis for it, which never happened due to the major changes to the format. The deck was exceedingly strong then, and it won me a Mana Drain in a local tournament, facing powerhouse opposition like MUD, Dragon, and Zilla Stompy.

With the B/R changes, the deck lost only one card, that being Skullclamp. It was a rather vital piece to the deck's strategy, as it was its sole draw engine. While I felt this loss could likely be compensated in the new format, my attention was turned to other projects during September and October, being that the original assumption by many (including myself) was that the available artifact accelleration was likely to give rise to a format dominated by combo, which is Angel Stompy's least favorite decktype to face.

Recent months of tournament data have proven the inaccuracy of this original assessment, and Ezrengel's Turbo-Angel thread (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1143) reminded me that Angel Stompy might have some merit once more. I was still worried about the loss of Skullclamp, but Ezrengel's list was running Sword of Fire and Ice as an ostensible replacement, much like RG survival's solution to the same conundrum. I had doubts, but testing proved that the Sword was an excellent call. It is an absolute powerhouse in the deck, likely moreso than any other deck I've ever tested it in, including RG Survival. Not only did it help to shore up the deck's draw problem, but it provided more robustness to its creatures, a stronger game against RG Survival and Goblins, the ability to protect threats from Tradewind Bounce, and, most importantly, provided another means of creature destruction; one of my biggest concerns with the original build outside of the combo matchup. The reason that I say it is likely stronger in this build than in any other I've tested is because with 7 double-mana sources, the deck can commonly and consistently cast and equip a Sword by turn 3. Good times.

Inspired by ObFreely's assertion (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2639) that Mask of Memory was a powerful draw engine for mono-white, I've been testing it as well, also to great effect. The deck currently runs 3 Swords and 3 Masks, giving it an insanely strong and consistent draw engine. It is not at all uncommon to outdraw control builds running the Intuition/AK engine with this build. Combined with massive draw, the deck's extreme threat density gives it a strong game against both control and aggro.

Lastly, because of the heavy slant towards broken artifacts and enchantments in the new format, the revised build, unlike its predecessor, is running maindecked Disenchants. Interestingly, despite what seem like a lot of changes, the deck plays nearly identically to the way it did before the B/R changes, and if anything it is more consistently brutal than before.

On to the decklist, then card analysis and matchups:

//NAME: UPDATED Legacy Angel Stompy (Current as of 6/10/06)
// Mana
16 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox
// Beats
4 Mother of Runes
2 Savannah Lions
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
// Control & Draw
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Mask of Memory
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Parallax Wave
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Rule of Law
SB: 4 Armageddon



//NAME: Older Legacy Angel Stompy (Current as of 2/18/06)
// Mana
13 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
3 Tithe
// Beats
4 Mother of Runes
4 Savannah Lions
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
// Control & Draw
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Mask of Memory
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Parallax Wave
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Rule of Law
SB: 4 Armageddon


BASIC STRATEGY ANALYSIS:
At its very core, the deck plays like classic White Weenie in most regards: It has a very finely tuned curve, and plays an endless stream of efficiently costed threats with inherent protection or evasion abilities, until the opponent has been overwhelmed. Unlike Classic Weenie, it also has a very robust draw engine, and the ability to accelerate into real, game-ending threats in the first few turns, creating an often unrecoverable board position for the opponent as early as turn 4. This ideology is owed to JP Meyers' White Lightning concept. However, where his concept maindecks Armaggeddon and Tangle Wire, this concept replaces those control elements with a much more aggressive strategy, fundamentally more suited to the current Legacy metagame.


CARD CHOICES:

Manabase:

Plains: Yup, we need those.

Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox: Broken mana accellerants, allowing for early resolution of Exalted Angels, Masks of Memory, Jittes, and Swords of Fire and Ice. Fundamentally important to the deck's ideology. Chrome Mox is particularly strong because of its synergy with Tithe and Armageddon, and because it allows you to play a turn 1 Morphed Angel or Sword of Fire and Ice.

Creatures:

Mother of Runes: Provides protection for your threats. A strong (and not atypical) play for this deck is turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Morph, turn 3 attack with Unmorphed Exalted Angel, with Mom backup. Very strong. Also, she can act as an infinite chump blocker against a lot of aggro opponents, by simply blocking and giving herself protection from the appropriate color in response.

Savannah Lions An evasive 1cc creature that rounds out the deck's mana curve. It's a very important inclusion, because aside from Mother of Runes, it's one of the deck's only first turn drops capable of equipping and attacking by turn 2, and Mother of Runes really wants to be playing defense, not offense. Theoretically, this slot can be Soltari Foot Soldier, Suntail Hawk, or Lantern Kami, but the extra power on the Lions can be important in racing control and in winning ground wars against other aggro.

Silver Knight: Insanely strong in this environment. Standalone defense against most weenie creature onslaughts, with Pro:Red making it highly resilient to removal. Shuts down Goblins' and Zilla Stompy's entire creature base single-handedly.

Soltari Priest: More Pro:Red, which as previously stated, is insanely strong in the current meta. Their inherent evasion provides excellent synergy with Mask of Memory and Sword of Fire and Ice, turning your 2cc investment into an unstoppable drawing/damage machine. So good.

In the original Angel Stompy build, this slot was reserved for Whipcorders. The biggest reason for this is because they allowed you to play a "bait and switch" game against control and burn, forcing them to guess whether or not you were playing a face down 'Corder or Angel on turn 2, and requiring them to answer it for fear that it's an Angel. While this strategy was strong, it is less so in the current format, particularly because Mana Drain is banned, which was another significant reason for running a high morph count. In the current format, Soltari Priests are certainly the better choice.

Exalted Angel: The deck's namesake, and one of the best creatures in the format. With your mana accelleration, you can have one of these babies attacking and gaining you massive board position as early as turn 3, often protected by Mother of Runes. Simply put, she commonly creates an unrecovable position for your opponent, and against most aggro, an early Angel = "I win."

Control & Draw:

Swords to Plowshares: Best creature removal in the game. Check.

Disenchant: With the high amount of artifact- and enchantment-based strategies in the current format (e.g., Crucible, Shackles, Chalice, Survival), there are very few matchups where maindecked Disenchants aren't going to be a good idea.

Mask of Memory: Explained in the intro. One of the deck's 3(!) card advantage engines, if you include Tithe. Has excellent synergy with your Tombs and Cities, often allowing you to attack with an equipped creature as early as turn 2. On a Soltari Priest, it's an extremely resilient draw engine.

Umezawa's Jitte: The best equipment ever printed. Singlehandedly wins games against aggro. It speeds up your clock, removes your opponent's threats, and provides additional lifegain when necessary. Particularly strong because, unlike Mask and Sword, you don't actually need to connect to benefit from its effect.

Sword of Fire and Ice: Also explained in the intro. More card advantage, as well as enhanced creature removal. Is insanely strong in the Goblins and RG Survival matchup, as well as in Burn and ATS. So very, very savage.

Parallax Wave: Provides mass creature removal of sorts, and allows you all kinds of interesting tricks. Not only can it rid you of pesky hard-to-remove creatures like Wild Mongrel, Psychatog and even Morphling (by responding to untargettability with Wave until they run out of mana), but it can be used to protect your own creatures from opposing removal by phasing them out in response to their being targeted. Wave is a very versatile form of removal and defense in a single package.

Sideboard:

Tormod's Crypt: A speedbump against Thresh, mainly, which is all you really need to stay competitive against them. Also good against Dredge Tog, Loam-based strategies, and Salavager Game.

Pithing Needle: Pithing Needle answers Landstill's Manlands, Goblins' Vials, and Survival's Survivals and Spore Frogs, among a great many other things. The Needle simply shores up a huge number of the deck's potential weaknesses.

Disenchant: Extreme redundancy for matchups which could otherwise be difficult. This includes but is not limited to ATS and Ravager Affinity.

Rule of Law: Bolsters your Solidarity/Tendrils matchups.

Armageddon: Improves your control matchup, but its strongest function is as an additional tool against Solidarity, allowing you a second means of disrupting their win, in conjunction with Rule of Law.


CARDS NOT CHOSEN:

Enlightened Tutor: Yup. I know the question is on your minds. Testing with Tutors was not positive at all. First, it is inherent card and tempo disadvantage, which this deck hates. Second, all of the threats you'd use it to search for you want in multiples, meaning that replacing some of them with Tutor isn't a strong strategy. Third, with as many card advantage engines already available, you typically see at least one of whatever you'd be searching for relatively early in the game. Tutor is a no-go. Don't ask.


MATCHUP ANALYSIS:

Goblin Sligh: Basically a bye. Goblins can win one in maybe ten matches against you, and that basically requires a turn 1 Lackey > turn 2 SGC draw, assuming you don't have an StP in your opening 7. The 8 Pro:Red creatures and 2-3 SoFIs, along with the lifegain from Angel and Jitte make this matchup extremely strong.

Burn: A strong matchup. The Burn player is forced into a tough position, being forced to choose between killing off your threats and aiming burn at your dome. If they neglect your threats, you can race them consistently. With 8 Pro:Red threats, as well as 2-3 SoFI and the lifegain provided by Angel, this is a tough match for the Burn player to win. In theory, you could run Pariah in the board for an essential bye against this matchup, but it's already so positive it's likely not worth the space it would take up in the SB.

Ravager: A good matchup. Your high threat and removal contingent combined with their relative lack of removal means that you've got a strong ability to win a ground war against them. Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Parallax Wave, and Null Rod from the board make for a positive matchup here.

UG Madness: A good matchup. You have a much denser threatbase than they do, and plenty of removal for their threats. Sword of Fire and Ice allows for added protection and removal. Combined with Swords to Plowshares and Parallax Wave, they rarely keep threats on the table long enough to matter. Because of their almost complete lack of removal, a single significant threat resolved on your side of the table can easily be ridden to victory.

Wayfarer White Weenie: A very good matchup. This is essentially a mirror match, except you're faster, have higher threat density, more removal, and bigger threats.

Pox/Poxicide/MBC: Untested. I'll update with results when I have them. Note, however, that if Mono-Black's track record of suckitude against aggro holds true, this matchup should be positive in the extreme.

RG Survival: A positive matchup. Because the vast majority of RG's removal is red-based, your creature base is extremely resilient to their removal. The only potential non-red removal they might be running is Masticore and/or Duplicant. Testing has shown that Masticore typically hits the table too late to really make a difference, and can be removed with Swords, Disenchant, or Parallax Wave. Duplicant is the other removal, and it only answers a single one of your overwhelmingly dense threats. RG Survival has classically had a weakness to fat creatures like Exalted Angel, and this is to your advantage. Further, Sword of Fire and Ice is a house in this matchup, protecting even more of your threats from their removal, and concurrently removing their own threats. Svg.

ATS: Not thoroughly tested. Early results seem positive. A lot of what was said in the RG matchup applies here. Besides packing maindecked answers to Survival, your speed, high threat count, and high removal contingent are all strong assets here. Sword of Fire and Ice is particluarly strong here, as it grants protection from Tradewind bounce, assuming your opponent lives long enough to resolve one.

Landstill: A difficult matchup. This matchup is rather draw dependent, and depends somewhat on the Landstill build you're facing. It's not uncommon to outdraw them, thus overwhelming their counter defense with threats is not overly difficult. Maindeck Sealt provides some defense against Disk, and is added removal against their threatbase. Parallax Wave can also protect your threats from Disk, by phasing them out in response to Disk activation. Decree of Justice from the board allows you to effectively dodge Standstill, and in fact makes it a liability for them to cast it. Armageddon is strong here as well, for obvious reasons. Overall, you have a variety of viable strategies against the Landstill opponent.

BBS: Not thoroughly tested. I'll update with results when I have them. Note that I have a feeling a lot of what was said in the Landstill matchup analysis likely applies here as well.

Burning Tog: Somewhat limited testing here, but early results look positive. You have plenty of removal for their Nightscape Familiars and Togs, and their FtKs are rather subpar because of your high Pro:Red count. SoFI is a beating and a half. It's not overly difficult to outdraw them and simply overwhelm them with threats.

Belcher: Not an overly positive matchup, but not an overly difficult one either. Results here are heavily build and draw dependent. Attack their manabase with Swords (Birds) and Seals (Moxen, Petals, etc.), and remove Welders with Swords as well. Bring in Null Rod and True Believer games 2 and 3 and you have a reasonably strong shot at winning.

Solidarity: Not good. By far and away the deck's worst matchup. Do whatever you can to resolve a Rule of Law or Armageddon games 2 and 3 and you might win. Maybe. If you see a high concentration of High Tide combo in your meta, you should either choose a different deck, dedicate 8 slots to the SB, and possibly splash blue for maindecked Meddling Mage. All things considered, it's probably not worth damaging your other matchups just to attempt to win this one with any degree of consistency.


QUICK AND DIRTY TOURNAMENT REPORT:
I wrote (and never released) this report shortly after using Angel Stompy to win a Mana Drain pre-September 1. While not all of it is applicable to the current build, it at least provides a basic idea of how the deck plays out against various archetypes.

Round 1: UG Madness - Robert (Unregged) 2-0

Game 1: 2 unmorphed Angels attacking by turn 4, one of them Skullclamped. Quick game.

Game 2: 3 StP's deal with early Madness outlets, 2 Parallax Waves hold off the rest of his threats while my own finish the job.

Record: 1-0-0

Round 2: Welder MUD - Bret (LinkXwing) 0-2

Game 1: No land in opening hand. Mull to 6, keep a decent 1 land hand for fear of mulling too low. He gets his lock on early and I draw no more land.

Game 2: Identical to game 1, including the draws and mulls, except he has double Workshop to lock me down even faster.

Record: 1-1-0

Round 3: Hulk - August (Setnakt) 2-0

Game 1: He manages to resolve a Tog and keep it on the table after Deeding away my early threats. I resolve a Parallax Wave to keep the Tog off my back for awhile, and he's forced to use his Wish for Naturalize. A cycled Decree gives me a few chump blockers to stay in the game until he can find another Wish for Berserk. Hardcast Decree for 4 looks like it will seal the deal. He has Predict and AK in hand, with no AK's in the yard. He knows he has to dig aggressively for Deed or lose next turn. He opts to cast a blind Predict, arbitrarily naming Impulse. He reveals a Deed. If he'd AK'ed instead, he likely would have won this game. Hindsight aside, I think he made the right play.

Game 2: An amusing game. Turn 1 I cast Mom and a Crypt, which gets FoWned. Turn 2 I cast a morph, he Drains. It's a Whipcorder. Turn 3 I cast a morph, he Drains. It's a Whipcorder. Turn 4 I cast a morph, he Drains. It's a Whipcorder. Turn 5 I hardcast Eternal Dragon, He FoWns it. Turn 6 recursion of Dragon, turn 7 recast it. The game ends shortly thereafter.

Record: 2-1-0

Round 4: Angel Stompy - Max (Frogboy) ID

Frogx0r and I ID, giving us both a strong chance at Top 4. Besides, we're playing literally identical decks. The mirror would have sucked.

2-1-1

Round 5: Zilla Stompy - Don (AngryTroll) 2-0

Game 1: Angel Stompy does that thing it's supposed to do against Zilla Stompy - resolve an early Silver Knight to hold off the opposing threats, and ride its other threats to victory. The game ended with me at 3 life.

Game 2: See game 1. I ended at 2 life. Close games.

3-1-1

Top 4: Welder MUD - Bret (LinkXwing) 2-1

Game 1: I actually draw a hand with lands in it this time. Good times. An early Savannah Lions goes all the way.

Game 2: It takes awhile, but he gets his lock on.

Game 3: A long, drawn out game, and very very close at the end. I manage to survive an opposing board containing Karn, a Trinisphere, Crucible with Wasteland recursion, Triskelion, and Chalice set at 1. Barely.

Finals: Zilla Stompy - Lewis (?) 2-1

Game 1: Angel Stompy does the double Silver Knight thing.

Game 2: My early threats are kinda weak. He manages to burn me out before I can get any real solid threats online.

Game 3: Turn 1 Mother of Runes survives to turn 2. Turn 2 StP a Lavamancer. Turn 3 Parallax Wave away Birds and Ape. Turn 4 hardcast Angel. It's a quick game from there.


CONCLUSION:
Not much to say here. This is basically a consistent, incredibly strong aggro option with good game against the majority of the top decks in the format. It has high threat density, answers to essentially any threat it might face, and a solid draw engine. As long as combo remains relatively weak in the format, this deck deserves strong consideration.

AngryTroll
11-14-2004, 09:26 PM
I will vouch for him: this really is a strong deck. At the Mana Drain tournament, the top 4 was two of this deck, wMUD, and Zilla Stompy.

In my defence, that might have been the first time I used Zilla Stompy. If not, it was one of the first times I used it. With him at 3 and 2 life, I would bet that I could have won both games if I was a good player and did more testing with Zilla Stompy before the tournament, instead of during it.

Yeah, this deck is very strong. It is fast, the removal is plentiful, and I would agree that Exalted Angel is one of the best creatures in the format.

Dangit, Godzilla, when we asked you to build us another format warping deck, I didn't mean this beast. I have wondered a few times what happened to this deck, usually accompanied with relief that it quietly died. It is a beating.

What do you believe is the weakest card in the deck? It helps to have a starting place to work from.

Zilla
11-14-2004, 09:32 PM
Frankly, I don't think any of the cards in it are weak. I mean if I had to answer the question I guess I'd say Savannah Lions, but they're sure as hell not going anywhere. At this rate, I think that if there are any changes made, it will likely be dropping a single card already in the list for one more of a card already in the list. It's developed now to the point where only minor tweakage is worthwhile, if necessary at all.

For the most part, the aspect likely to see biggest change is the sideboard, and that is (obviously) highly meta dependent.

frogboy
11-14-2004, 09:35 PM
I, uh, really hate to make a post that doesn't really say anything, but I pretty much vouch for everything Godzilla said in here. Prior to the BR change, it beat almost everything in the format except for having an unfavorable matchup with Workshops. Now, it beats everything Zilla ran it against, pretty much.

The only reservations I really have are the lack of Eternal Dragon and Decrees in the maindeck. Formerly pure savagery against control, their relegation to the sideboard gives me a frowny face. I realize Decree's stock went down with Skullclamp's loss, but Eternal Dragon really was quite strong for me. Why'd it get cut?

Carney2k4
11-14-2004, 09:39 PM
This deck doesn't look very bad, though the only problem is getting hands with no Plains. I just goldfished this deck 8 times, and got no Plains hands 3 times. Do you think we can cut a few of the Tombs/Cities?

Zilla
11-14-2004, 09:40 PM
Eternal Dragon really was quite strong for me. Why'd it get cut?
It got cut because I needed room for Isamaru, to be frank. Further because in many cases it was win-more. Occasionally it would win long games, but I've opted for a faster, more aggressive strategy with the modern build, and Dragon doesn't really fit this paradigm.



This deck doesn't look very bad, though the only problem is getting hands with no Plains. I just goldfished this deck 8 times, and got no Plains hands 3 times. Do you think we can cut a few of the Tombs/Cities?
Absolutely not. It's true that the manabase occasionally requires aggressive mulls, but the payoff from the Cities and Tombs is more than worthwhile. The deck actually did used to run 12 Plains, but I often found myself getting flooded with them in the late game. If you were to remove anything for another Plains, however, I would recommend removing a single Sword, Mask, or Disenchant before ever recommending the removal of Cities or Tombs.



Edited By GodzillA on 1100486869

Carney2k4
11-14-2004, 09:49 PM
Another problem though, is getting the WW for Knight and Priest on turn 2. After Goldfishing this deck a few more times, I found that that I kept getting 2 land hands with Tomb and Plains. This is fine when you have a Tithe, and those help really well for smoothing out the Mana Base. I took out 1 Disenchant from the MD, and added a Plains, and it is starting to get a little better. Are you sure we cant make room for a Dragon or 2? As they can help if you get a no Plains hand.

kirdape3
11-14-2004, 10:14 PM
It looks strong, but as a hardcore Goblin player I must admit to not being so scared of your random protection from red dorks. True, I play Goblins as far more controlling than do most people (and probably slightly better than most people), with maindeck Swords to Plowshares and 3 Disenchants.

How does this deck answer Anarchy, or for that matter Fledgling Dragon? The former has to basically turn you into Bill Paxson in Aliens: 'It's game over, man! It's game over!', and the latter is an enormously undercosted fat creature that you have, um, Swords to Plowshares to adequately deal with. True, you have a lot of outs against Goblins, but a well-played and built version of the red deck is not your easiest matchup by any means.

Zilla
11-14-2004, 10:33 PM
Are you sure we cant make room for a Dragon or 2? As they can help if you get a no Plains hand.
I'm not totally sure, no. However, they were in the original iteration of the deck, so I know what they have to offer the deck; I haven't missed them much in recent testing. Truth be told, the tempo cost tends to be too egregious for them to be worthwhile, in my experience. Feel free to do some more thorough testing with them if you want, and let me know what you find.

@Kird:
I've done lots and lots of testing against Goblins, including the builds running the white splash. The bottom line is that whether you fear them or not, the Pro:Red dorks own your ground force. You only have 4 Swords at most, and I'd by far rather you hit my Knights and Priests with them than my Exalted Angels. As for Fledgeling Dragon, I simply answer that the same way I answer any other fat creature; I Swords it, Wave it, or block it with a Sword equipped Angel. Simply, the deck has many more answers than Goblins does significant threats. This has been confirmed by extensive testing.



Edited By GodzillA on 1100489644

NeoMike
11-14-2004, 11:29 PM
The build looks really good, and very fun, Dragon's are great ways to smooth out your mana if you are stuck on a 2 colorless land or 2. I am curious as to why you dropped your angel bluffs(Whipchorder)? He is a beast, they have to be able to call your bluff. Just dont do what I saw 1 guy do. "Ill pay 3, morphed Ange!.. I mean a morph." Funniest stuff ever.
Anyways, if I had access to MWS I would goldfish it, but I guess I'll have to do it the old fashioned way, spend $$$ to buy cards, who likes doing that? :cool:

frogboy
11-15-2004, 12:01 AM
Sword of Fire and Ice is just as big a must-counter as Whipcorder, and it makes all your other creatures that much better while drawing cards and doing more damage. Besides, after a while, they become easier to play around. Sword's just a beating, while Whipcorder's just mostly a cute trick.

It's quite true that both the Goblin and Burn matchups can get close, but it's generally in favor of Angel Stompy. Anarchy's powerful, but fairly slow and not that brutal unless you overextend like an idiot. Parallax Wave also stops the bleeding. There's no one card I found to be a complete auto-win against Angel Stompy in this format.

Also, I'm getting rather irritated with people complaining about card prices in regards to testing decks. This site, and especially this forum, is dedicated to finding the optimal decklists for each deck, regardless of what price is. Use proxies if you don't have Apprentice or MWS, and keep budget builds and questions in the appropriate forums. Please.

Mad Zur
11-15-2004, 12:13 AM
True Believer: Strong against almost all combo. It will buy you at least a turn against Belcher, is essentially game over if you resolve it against Solidarity (especially when backed by Mom)...
This seems like an exaggeration. How fast is your average goldfish?

Zilla
11-15-2004, 01:03 AM
@NeoMike:
Eternal Dragon: In a slower, more controllish build, Dragon is excellent. In this highly agressive build, which typically wins the game by the time you'd be recurring and hardcasting a Dragon, I would almost always rather see a Plains in my hand than an Eternal Dragon.

Whipcorder: Frogx0r's on the money here. The Whipcorder trick is nice, but it's not absolutely essential for the deck's gameplan, particularly with Mana Drain out of the picture. Soltari Priest, on the other hand, is extremely strong in conjunction with Sword and Mask, especially in a meta rife with red-based removal.




True Believer: Strong against almost all combo. It will buy you at least a turn against Belcher, is essentially game over if you resolve it against Solidarity (especially when backed by Mom)...
This seems like an exaggeration. How fast is your average goldfish?
Let me clarify: I am not suggesting that True Believer alone is an auto-win against Solidarity. That said, I don't think it's an exaggeration to suggest that it is a strong anti-Solidarity card, which was my intention. True Believer absolutely requires Solidarity to find bounce before they can go off, which can often buy you enough time to finish the job. If backed by Mom, True Believer is essentially a turn 2 lock, assuming no Force of Will. Regardless, I made it clear in the matchups section that Solidarity is one of the deck's more difficult matchups; I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Erzengel
11-15-2004, 03:24 PM
Good call on Enlightened Tutor. It is absolutely horrible for this deck. Every time I had in my hand I wanted it to be something else. It slows the deck down big-time.

I like Soltari Priest as well. I’ve run him in the past and can attribute several wins to his namesake.
Turn 2 Shadow Dude + Heavy hitter equipment the following turn are what easy wins are made of.

Have you given much thought to Chrome Mox?

Upside:
Turn 1: Play Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, and a mysterious face down critter.
Turn 2: Plains, flip the critter and smash face. Proceed to Winner’s Circle, as you would most likely win that damage race.

Downside:
FoW, STP, Bolt.

It could be a possible replacement for City of Traitors.

It still allows for a Turn 3 face beating Angel, give the possibility, however unlikely, of flipping an Angel on turn 2, and can act as a mana fixer allowing you to have more access to White mana.

Zilla
11-15-2004, 05:34 PM
Have you given much thought to Chrome Mox?
I have given thought to it, yes, but admittedly not a lot as of yet. It's certainly on my list of things to test, particularly because of its potential synergy with Tithe; Tithe can be pitched to it in circumstances where it wouldn't gain you card advantage (i.e., you have more lands than your opponent), and can also create a higher likelihood of having less lands than your opponent, thereby increasing overall card advantage potential from Tithe.

Furthermore, it could be less of a dead topdeck in the lategame here than in other decks, as it can be discarded after a Mask of Memory draw. It's worth testing for the other reasons you mentioned as well. I have some worry about replacing Cities with them simply because it may decrease average time to hardcasting an Angel, but I have a feeling this drawback may be negligible, and I don't see much else to cut for them. Additionally, they have the added benefit of upping your double-white consistency, which is obviously good. The ability to drop two 1cc threats or a Knight or Priest on turn 1 is also appealling. I'll be testing 3x Chrome Mox over 3x City and let you know what I think after I've got some accurate results.

EDIT: Another thought that occurred to me is the strength of first turn Chrome Mox (no lands in play)>Tithe is likely to net you two Plains right off the bat, thereby negating the card disadvantage caused by Chrome Mox. Also appealing. The more I think about it, the more I think the Mox has potential here.



Edited By GodzillA on 1100558282

MattH
11-15-2004, 10:41 PM
What specific build of Ravager did you test against? Being three colors gives that deck a huge amount of flexibility in the "answer" cards it can run, and the choice of those can hugely determine a matchup.

You'll forgive me for being skeptical of any deck where every matchup is in your favor.

Manlands
11-16-2004, 12:53 AM
Hey~ Wheres the Manlands match up? (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2455) >_>

Hint: Not in his favor

SpatulaOfTheAges
11-16-2004, 01:24 AM
How is Solidarity anything but an auto-loss? True Believer is useless in any build running Cunning Wish(imo, that means any good build). Your *only* threat is Armageddon with a strong enough threat to back that up(ie, angel), assuming they have no counter. Your odds of racing are pretty low.

Zilla
11-16-2004, 03:35 AM
What specific build of Ravager did you test against? Being three colors gives that deck a huge amount of flexibility in the "answer" cards it can run, and the choice of those can hugely determine a matchup.

You'll forgive me for being skeptical of any deck where every matchup is in your favor.
I tested against the UWB build running Meddling Mage, Aether Vial, etc. The matchup is good pre-board, and very good after, thanks to Null Rod. Meddling Mage is relatively inconsequential since he can be removed via Swords, SoFI, or Parallax Wave. The deck has maindeck Disenchant for the majority of Ravager's threats, and solid blockers for everything but a mid- to late-game Ravager. Simply put, its essential lack of removal combined with the fact that it's not as threat dense, compounded even further by its weakness to Null Rod makes this a solid matchup.



Hey~ Wheres the Manlands match up? (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2455)
Not included for obvious reasons, Ethan. Namely, you're the only person on the planet with enough lack of self-respect to play it. :p

Seriously, though - I'll agree it was a difficult matchup pre-ban. However, the deck is significantly different with the current changes, particularly as it relates to your build. For example, I have blockers for your shadow dudes now. I also have Sword of Fire and Ice as additional removal, as well as maindeck Disenchants for your Seals and Factories. Essentially, the deck has gotten more aggressive and packs more removal since you last played against it, so the results may not be the same as they were pre-ban. If you want, we'll hook up and test the matchup more thoroughly. I'm interested in the results.



How is Solidarity anything but an auto-loss?
I don't know, but testing shows that it isn't. Difficult, yes. Auto-loss, no. Can I win this matchup in a straight race? Typically not. I agree with you there; it requires a bad draw on the Solidarity player's part. Game 1 is often going to be a loss.

We disagree on True Believer, though. Bear in mind that I am not asserting that True Believer is a standalone answer to Solidarity. It is, however, a speed bump - one which can buy you enough time to win the race. You're correct that Cunning Wish can get Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor to bounce him, but this requires the Solidarity player to first dig for Wish, and then cast Chain of Vapors. This requires time, which is what you need the most. As a side note, the Wish strategy is nullified by a True Believer backed by an active Mother of Runes.

Let me be explicit: this matchup is difficult for Angel Stompy. The matchups section clearly states that Solidarity is likely its worst matchup. Aside from Armageddon and True Believer, what are your suggestions for improvement of this matchup?



Edited By GodzillA on 1100594766

Obfuscate Freely
11-16-2004, 09:31 AM
I also disagree with your assessment of the Solidarity matchup, or at least with your assessment of True Believer. I have tested Believer myself (admittedly in WWW, not Angel Stompy), playing against Solidarity piloted by Deep6er.

What I found was that Believer gave me practically no time at all, since Solidarity will find the Wish and generate the mana to use it while going off.

In my testing, the closest games saw a Believer resolve on turn 2, with Armageddon backup. The problem is that 'geddon was usually either countered by Force of Will, or Solidarity went off and won in response, bouncing the Believer along the way.

It is also important to note that Deep6er has added Evacuation to the Wish board, meaning that Mom offers little defense to the Believer.

Pretty much the only games I won were due to Solidarity fizzling out, or the occasional resolved 'geddon on the play. Especially considering Angel Stompy's ability to resolve 'geddon a turn earlier because of Tomb/City, I think that boarding in 4 'geddons is your best bet against Solidarity. Tangle Wire is also fairly brutal to them. True Believer seems almost like wasted sideboard space.

Carney2k4
11-16-2004, 10:31 AM
Well, dispite this deck having a horrible matchup against Solidarity, after some testing, this deck does great against almost the entire format. I'm starting to test the Moxes, and they're working really well with the Tithes.

How is your testing going with the Moxes, Zilla?

lynxcat
11-16-2004, 11:17 AM
Wouldn't Rule of Law be a much better choice than True Believer? As was stated, the Solidarity player can simply find bounce while going off. Rule of Law ensures that they have to find the bounce beforehand. I realize it has less synergy with Mother of Runes, but Rule of Law by itself is much more effective than True Believer.

Happy Gilmore
11-16-2004, 11:33 AM
Solidarity's main deck removal is generally in the form of Chain of Vapor, so it really doesn't matter what you are running, permanents are NP for solidarity, especially with wish MD.

CavernNinja
11-16-2004, 11:53 AM
I would have to agree with Rule of Law, Arcane Lab is really good in the board against them from a mono blue deck so I could see Rule as being a good card. What I don't like about Rule is the fact that it isn't a threat on its own, however it is considerably better than True Believer so it could be worth it.

Carlos El Salvador
11-16-2004, 02:58 PM
Well.. they both have pros and cons, but for this PARtICULER deck, I would be inclined to run the beleiver. Simply because of Mother of Runes giving True Belever pro blue so Solitare couldn't touch him in response to a chain. Good times.

Zilla
11-16-2004, 03:31 PM
@ObFreely:
Thanks for the in-depth discussion of the matchup from your perspective. It's appreciated. It's entirely possible that my results have been somewhat different simply because I've been testing against different builds, or those with less knowledge of the deck, but I don't disbelieve your assertions here. Evacuation was never an issue in my testing either as it wasn't in the deck, so Believer with Mom or SoFI backup was a reasonable strategy in my testing. I'll do some more testing againse Deep6er's most recent build and see what I find.

@Carney:
The Moxen have been testing well so far. They up the color consistency some, and don't seem to be any kind of significant hit to overall speed. Bear in mind that I've only had a few hours' worth of testing with them so far, so it's impossible to say for certain, but first impression is that the 3 Mox over 3 Cities routine is a solid plan. Thanks again to Ezrengel, whose suggestion reminded me to test it.

@Rule of Law:
That's a very solid idea. I'll do some testing with that as well; don't know why I hadn't thought of it before.

@Carlos:
I've already pointed out the Mom/Believer strategy. ObFreely has pointed out that some builds are running Evacuate as a Wish target, which means that Mom is a non-issue in that case. You ought to read the thread - there's some good stuff in here.

Carlos El Salvador
11-16-2004, 03:37 PM
Well, that means that Solitary is running two bounce spells at least, whcih still means that it's hard for you to put together everything and just win, becuase they can just wish during their main phase, return your Rule of Law, then go crazy at the end of turn. Really you don't accomplish much other than perhaps stalling them by two turns, which could be engouth for lethal damage, but if they run bounce, your screrwed eather way.

stolen
11-16-2004, 04:41 PM
Sphere of Resistance? Trinisphere? Glowrider? I can't think of anything else not already mentioned to help vs. Solidarity. Unfortunately none of these actually win the match but maybe they could stall for that vital turn or two? An early Sphere (or either of the other two, which would be more possible in this deck with fast mana than in 3W) also makes Solidarity's early-turn hand-fixing more difficult, so not only will the wish/bounce cost more but it would also be slightly more difficult to get them in hand. Of course, they (except for Glowrider) slow your threats too, so I don't know.

Otherwise, I guess run Believer and hope Solidarity isn't running Evacuation.

Carney2k4
11-16-2004, 04:46 PM
I think we should focus more on matches that are alot more winnable, because reserving 4-5 slots for Solidarity seems kinda....pointless. Just take the loss from Solidarity and devote more slots to more played decks. Thats my $.02.

Zilla
11-16-2004, 04:59 PM
Just take the loss from Solidarity and devote more slots to more played decks.
You could do this I guess, but Solidarity is one of the few viable decks I've seen that is truly difficult for the deck. Truth be told, it doesn't really need its board for much else, save the Belcher matchup and certain control matchups (depending on the build). Thus, if efforts are going to be concentrated on improving the deck anywhere, it mise well be the matchup it has trouble with. I personally find the suggestions useful.

Overall, I'd ideally like to find a solid answer to Solidarity which is also useful against other matchups, but this may not be possible. In addition to Believer, Rule of Law, 3Sphere, and Sphere of Resistance, I've considered running Chalice as an answer to Solidarity. Set at 1, Chalice can be a very difficult obstacle for it, since it shuts down a lot of draw and of course High Tide and Chain of Vapor. The problem, of course, is that a lot of your own threats are at 1cc as well. Then again, none of them are truly vital to your gameplan against Solidarity (excepting Tithe, maybe), so it might be worth some testing. It has the added benefit of having at least some positive impact in the Belcher matchup as well, set at either 0 or 1. I'll probably give that some testing and see how it works out.

Erzengel
11-16-2004, 05:26 PM
Rule of Law plus Armageddon seems to be a pretty viable strategy.

Rule of law can also come down 2nd turn, just like True Believer could, as 2W is not usually problem for this deck to come up with.

Rule of Law also has some splash damage against some of the random agro decks floating around. Simply put, you creature are generally better than theirs, and being able to drop 1 quality threat per turn makes it pretty difficult to race Angels, or Shadow dudes that have been bolstered by nasty equipment.
Not that that would be the best answer for a deck of that sort, just pointing something out.

I think that Chalice is about of equal strength, as it can also bolster various other matches however favorable they might be as of now.

Happy Gilmore
11-16-2004, 05:27 PM
I would definetly say that Rule of Law is your best option at this time, although I wonder if there is an enchantment that changes land types for white. That would be much more affective.

would it be rediculous to splash red for boil?

Zilla
11-16-2004, 05:36 PM
would it be rediculous to splash red for boil?
When Armageddon serves essentially the same purpose? Yes it would. By turn 3 or 4 (when you're ready to cast Armageddon), you should already have roughly 3 threats on the table, meaning they're on a relatively short clock. The fact that Armageddon wipes out your own lands at that point is irrellevant, because it buys you the time you need to ride your existing threats to victory.

@Ezrengel, Re: Rule of Law:
Technically it can be dropped first turn with a Chrome Mox and a Tomb. I'm liking the Moxen more and more in testing.

Carney2k4
11-16-2004, 09:41 PM
I'm liking the Moxen more and more in testing.
So am I. They smooth out the mana base, and work oh so well with Tithe. The Moxen make the deck alot more consistent, IMO. God, I'm really liking this deck.

disrupted
11-16-2004, 10:26 PM
And in this ultimte anti Solidarity hand either way you need two plains, a Mom, a True believe. Or a 2 Mana land a mox and a Rule of law.

I think a previous post regarding this just being a bad matchup is really on target.

Rule of law seems to be inherantly a stronger answer against storm combo.

However True beliver will prevent you from being targeted by anything, I.E. Black discard, Charbelcher. It is more versetile in that respect.

My real interest to those who have playtested this deck against red is, does anybody really ever let you untap with Mom on turn 2 or is this a midgame drop?

In my experience playing and playing against similar decks more pro red/black creatures are a benefit. I noticed befor a debate about this decks abilities VS Gobs and other Sligh. I understand the threat base being very dense in this deck but really wonder if two Palidin En-Vec might not be a good addition? I know what would you cut.

I just wanted to post some thoughts on this deck as for anyone who has ever had the crap kicked out of them by good WW in extended can attest Shadow, Pro-red, Geddon And that god-darned Wave are really solid. Mask of Memory was tech in my G/W beatdown deck in Extended last year. It is so fast and so good.

Thanks for the decklist and all the thoughts. Better by far than the version I have sporatically worked on.

Revert_To_Saved
11-16-2004, 10:41 PM
My real interest to those who have playtested this deck against red is, does anybody really ever let you untap with Mom on turn 2 or is this a midgame drop?

In my experience playing and playing against similar decks more pro red/black creatures are a benefit. I noticed befor a debate about this decks abilities VS Gobs and other Sligh. I understand the threat base being very dense in this deck but really wonder if two Palidin En-Vec might not be a good addition? I know what would you cut.
So far, I have never been able to even get an active Mom against the Goblins I've tested. The build ran much more burn than others, and early game it always got a bolt or some such, late game, with all the pro red creatures, they normally burned it out of sheer boredom.

I really don't think that more pro red or black creatures would be beneficial for this deck, not because it wouldn't be a good idea, but it would be hard finding something to bump out in their place.

banky
11-16-2004, 11:14 PM
I honestly dont mind them burning away my Mom as Im always stabilizing at 5 or fewer life.

One game during my testing of this deck (with Moxen) had me at 1 life while burning away all my early, non-pro-red guys such as Mom and Lions. I beat with angel and double-equipped shadow-man, while my opponent is stuck on two non-Piledriver beaters so he cant get through my two Knights. He top-decks lightning bolt (I didnt know that at the time) and passes the turn as its useless against an angel and bunch of pro-red men. I play a Wave off mask draw from last turn and beat with everything putting him within alpha-strike. During his upkeep I remove his men and he top-decks a Lightning of the chain variety and simply scoops.

The early game Tithe's make this deck so brutal by thinning out two of only 11 plains that you draw nothing but gold late game.

Zephyrus
11-17-2004, 12:55 AM
just a nitpick here, but wouldn't it be beneficial to run more than 1 Isamaru? I understand that getting doubles of Isamaru is bad but I don't think the possibility of two Isamaru is high enough to outweigh the advantages of a 1 mana 2/2. Maybe it's worth a try?

Revert_To_Saved
11-17-2004, 01:02 AM
just a nitpick here, but wouldn't it be beneficial to run more than 1 Isamaru? I understand that getting doubles of Isamaru is bad but I don't think the possibility of two Isamaru is high enough to outweigh the advantages of a 1 mana 2/2. Maybe it's worth a try?
You could possibly run two, but I believe that overall the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages.

D
-hurts if you draw more than one
with the amount of draw in this deck, this is not completely
unlikely to happen.
-hurts in the mirror match
I believe this is the most important point to take into
consideration, if this deck starts popping up, running more
than one could greatly hinder the mirror by allowing them a
way to, in a pinch, clear one of your creatures.

A
- One more defense
That would be really nice to have, especially against goblins
or other aggro heavy metas

Basically, in my testing, it depends on how many mirror matches you expect to play. Two seems to be the total possible amount that you could feasibly run, and in metas where you're not expeciting WW, I have found that the probability of being stuck with two is quite low despite the draw and therefore advantageous to run two. However, in the mirror, especially against a WW deck that depends more on weenies than angel and runs 3 or so Hounds, they are very disadvantageous and become a conditional and easily dealt with threat if the opponent so chooses.

Again, this is just what i have gathered in my testing.

Zilla
11-17-2004, 02:15 AM
@Solidarity matchup:
I think we're all pretty well agreed that it's not a positive matchup. I'm more concerned witht he solution to this issue than the beating of a dead horse. As for suggestions of a "god hand", it's not all that unlikely to get one each of two cards I have 4 of in the deck. As for getting 2 Plains, well, that better happen or I have serious problems anyhow. As for the Rule of Law thing, I was suggesting it could be played first turn, not that it would be necessarily commonplace. As long as it hits turn 3 or sooner, you should be fine.

@The red matchup:
Mom is burn bait and nothing more in this matchup, which is perfectly fine. That's damage not going at my head region. The real threats here are the Knights, Priests, and Swords. Every game I've played against goblins and burn has been very positive, with very few exceptions. As for Paladin, I'd only suggest running them in an extremely black-heavy meta, and I'd likely run them over Silver Knight, since their function is identical. In most metas, I wouldn't recommend it though.

@Isamaru:
I agree with Revert on this one: simply, the risks outweighs the gain, in my opinion. Sure, it's not very likely you'll get stuck with two,,, but at the end of the day, that one extra toughness just isn't worth that slim risk, particularly because neither the Hounds nor the Lions play a primary strategic role, per se. They're simply there to fill out the curve and support your more significant threats.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-17-2004, 02:17 PM
Against Solidarity you might want to try a mixture of Rule of Law and Defense Grid; Defense Grid doing double-time against control.

robd
11-17-2004, 02:37 PM
So, maybe I'm being a serious newb, but wouldn't Gaea's Blessing be a good card against Solidarity? Just looking back over the thread, it seems that Armageddon is a weak sideboard card and the space could be made there. Solidarity (at least, the versions I've seen) is only running one Stifle as a Wish target, and if you boarded in 3 Blessings would have a serious boatload of trouble decking you. Any copies you draw can just be discarded to Mask of Memory.

It is a very narrow sideboard card, but if Solidarity is the worst matchup, it seems it would be worth dedicating 3 slots strictly to it.

RobD

CavernNinja
11-17-2004, 02:49 PM
Armageddon is a very strong card against control. The card is a must counter even if all you have on the board is a Silver Knight. Plain and simple Geddon isn't there for Solidarity, it just happens to help a little.

robd
11-17-2004, 03:22 PM
Armageddon: The most tentative SB slot. It improves your control matchup some, but I'm not sure it's necessary, since you already have a pretty strong game in that regard. Furthermore, the recent unrestricting of Moxen and Petals makes this a slightly less reliable strategy. Its strongest function is as an additional tool against Solidarity, allowing you a second means of disrupting their win, in conjunction with True Believer.


This states Armageddon's primary purpose is for Solidarity, and it just happens to also be something that can come in for control. Yes, it is a must counter for control of all sorts. But I've been seeing a lot of Moxen and Crucibles, and they weaken its overall effect unless you've got a very good board presence. In which case you should be winning the game, and not toying with your opponent. ;)

Removing this from your sideboard will weaken your game 2 and 3 versus Landstill and BBS. But, I don't believe critically. I haven't tested, so I can't say. I can say that I've resolved Armageddon only about 10%-15% of the time I've cast it. When it resolves, it ends the game. When it doesn't (or I don't draw it), I've still managed to win frequently.

Given that, I think Blessing is worth a try. If I slightly lower my percentages against other control decks in exchange for making my worst matchup significantly better, that's a trade I'm willing to make.

I suppose, looking back at my previous post, I shouldn't have used the word "weak" in describing Armageddon. But, I've had it countered so frequently that all it really seems useful for is tapping a lot of mana for nothing. By the time you can effectively bait out the counters to cast Armageddon, you're beyond the time it would have been most effective. Or, maybe I'm just not playing it right. *shrug*

RobD

hellfire1134
11-17-2004, 03:38 PM
I dont believe Gaea's Blessing is good for this deck. You can't hardcast it and if you don't play solidarity then it just sits in the board. Plus if you draw it it does nothing.

robd
11-17-2004, 03:54 PM
Again, I say *shrug*. This would be a total metagame call, because it would be three slots devoted to a specific deck. If you aren't expecting any Solidarity, I'd certainly go back to Armageddon.

I introduced the idea only because that matchup is both very, very hard, and Solidarity is very popular in some places.

Versus Solidarity, you don't want to cast it. It's in there strictly for the graveyard ability. If you draw it, it would be the first card chucked to Mask of Memory. Drawing one would suck. But, you need multiples, and 3 seems best. Every build of Solidarity I've seen has access to exactly 1 Stifle. You want to make sure you have the best chance of having 2 Blessings in your library when they go off that you can.

That said, when I get home this evening, I'll try testing it out and see what happens, since this is all theory at the moment.

If the inability to cast it really bothers you, try to think of it as the equivalent to Rebel Informer in the old Masques Block rebel decks. Another example of a card you didn't want to draw, couldn't cast if you did, but was a sliver bullet versus a specific deck.

RobD

lynxcat
11-17-2004, 04:39 PM
You have to keep in mind that once they start going off successfully, the Solidarity player can do almost anything they want, all at instant speed. Gaea's Blessing is easy to play around since they can just Brain Freeze again with the Blessing trigger on the stack. The key to beating them is to not allow them to begin going off in the first place, which is why I think Armageddon and Rule of Law are the best answers. You need pre-emptive, rather than reactive answers.

LockDown
11-17-2004, 07:23 PM
Solidarity is a very hard game to win.
Has anybody tried using Gilded Light to stop them from going off.
Works like True Believer but it can't be bounced. It can be countered though.

Peter_Rotten
11-17-2004, 07:52 PM
Alright already. Enough with the Solidarity match. It's not good for the deck. It's not likely ever going to be good.

But wait, maybe if you equip True Believer with the SoFI giving pro blue... blah, blah... [glare]
We've spent nearly 2 full pages discussing that match that as of now will happen rarely. How many T4/8 appearances has Solidarity seen? More importantly, how many people are really playing the deck?

We are belaboring the point. It is time to move on.

skyline_186
11-17-2004, 08:40 PM
Alright already. Enough with the Solidarity match. It's not good for the deck. It's not likely ever going to be good.

But wait, maybe if you equip True Believer with the SoFI giving pro blue... blah, blah... [glare]
We've spent nearly 2 full pages discussing that match that as of now will happen rarely. How many T4/8 appearances has Solidarity seen? More importantly, how many people are really playing the deck?

We are belaboring the point. It is time to move on.
I agree

its time to move on to other matchups although this discussion may pop up here and there. I think that the solidiarity will truly need to be discussed once it makes some more T4/8 performances and more people play it.

Carney2k4
11-18-2004, 04:46 PM
That's what I've been trying to say. WE should be talking about the ATS matchup, because in testing, it needs a little work. I've found that they just stomp on your face with an active SotF.

TeenieBopper
11-18-2004, 06:14 PM
Against Solidarity you might want to try a mixture of Rule of Law and Defense Grid; Defense Grid doing double-time against control.
I know we've moved on past the solidarity match-up, but I wanted to comment on this. I ran Angel Stompy before the bannings, and because there's brainfreeze here, I asked Godzilla what he would board for it. At the time, he said Chalice of the Void. I also didn't own any, so I was randomy searching for something to board, and I came across Defense Grid. I ran with it. It actually worked out pretty well, especially since he didn't see it coming. They can still go off, but like everythign else, the hope is to stall them long enough so you can kill them.

About ATS. This deck has enough disruption (both enchantment and creature removal) to stall out ATS long enough for you to win. Remember, you're the aggressor. Kill their first turn birds, nail survival, and bash.

Carney2k4
11-18-2004, 06:31 PM
About ATS. This deck has enough disruption (both enchantment and creature removal) to stall out ATS long enough for you to win. Remember, you're the aggressor. Kill their first turn birds, nail survival, and bash.
There's only 3 Disenchants MD, so I might get 1 in 1 out of 3 games in my opening hand. The first game is very rough, but you can board in the 4th Disenchant and that helps a little bit. But if they untap with a SotF in play it doesn't look good for you.

Zilla
11-22-2004, 06:09 PM
Original post updated to reflect current list. Thorough testing has shown Chrome Mox to be an extremeyl strong choice, mainly because it makes your white mana consistency much stronger, and because it allows for first turn Angels & SoFI's. In my opinion, it's defintely the better choice for the deck. Thanks again to Ezrengel for the suggestion.

banky
11-23-2004, 11:01 AM
Question: If this deck has good match-ups versus four of the five current decks in Legacy Metagame Forum and match against a majority of other stronger contenders, wouldnt this deck deserve a move to LMF since we're basicly down to nit-picking the SB (True Believre, Armageddon) and one MD choices (Issamaru)?

Artowis
11-23-2004, 12:29 PM
It hasn't posted results anywhere really.

The Adepts and Mods keep track of this stuff and when we feel it should be moved, it'll be moved.

Post cleaned up and nonsense removed.

Peter_Rotten

Sims
11-23-2004, 02:37 PM
No, but I can speak for Artowis that the comment wasn't warranted directly at you. Since the bannings people have been itchy to see what the new Tier 1 is and have been bugging for every pet deck in the world to be moved to the LMF (former EVR), and frankly it had gotten quite annoying. The Adepts and Mods have been discussing decks that have been meeting a few guidelines extensively for worthniess to the LMF and voting on each deck, hence the movement of some threads to the LMF for the time being until suitable restarted threads are created (such as Quicksilvers revamp of the Survival Advantage thread for the LMF).

For reference, this deck has been putting up strong testing results, but is currently not widely played. When it starts becoming popular and puts up solid results in various meta's and large tournys, then we will bring it up for consideration as a deck to be placed in LMF.

Zelyon
11-23-2004, 03:09 PM
I threw together and played the deck for the few days and here are my thoughts.

I highly recommend you test out these changes before commenting on them.

Chrome Mox isn't that good in this deck. Yes it lets you play something one turn earlier. But rarely did I not miss that card I had to remove in order to play it. A card has to be downright broken to make a 2 to 1 card disadvantage worthwhile. Being able to play something one turn earlier is worth losing a key white spell. The main reason you seem to play it is because it ups the white mana count. But if you cut a few Tithe and City of Traitors and up the plains count, you wouldn't have that problem at all.

Parallax Wave should not be a maindeck card. It's great in some matchups but near worthless in others (against just about any decent control and combo deck for example).

Considering that...

A.) The matchups Wave is good against aren't really this decks weakest matchups.
B.) This deck already has plenty of other maindeck cards against creatures and aggro.
C.) Wave can be near dead against certain matchups.
D.) Wave is a very high casting cost cards.

I just don't see the justification for not playing as a sideboard card rather than a maindeck card. There are definately better choices for such a high casting cost main deck slot. Tangle Wire for example is helpful against a lot more decks and is cheaper to boot.

You should definately up the Isamaru, Hound of Konda count up to 2 and may want to consider even 3. The fact is, you shouldn't have more than one of these guys in play, if you do, you're overextending and walking right into a wrath or deed or keg or disk etc. The extra toughness over the Lions helps a good bit against many of the 1 toughness goblins goblin sligh runs since it forces them to use up yet another burn spell here to be able to attack and they will thus be that much less likely to be able to burn away your Angel, Mother of Runes (two burn spells) or another more important critter. Test it out, I think you'll like the results.

Tithe is a poor replacement for lands. Running such a low plains count makes you too vulnerable to mana screw to be worthwhile. You should replace the Chrome Mox with Plains (highly recommend) and replace some if not all of the Tithe with Plains. The deck thinning isn't much (you can get the same effect by throwing in 4 flooded strands in it's slot) and I almost always had something else I would rather play in my hand until it's too late in the game to matter much. The deck has a low enough curve especially once you cut a few Waves that it's not needed. Afterall, this is meant to be a relatively fast deck. Tying up mana during the first few turns hardly seems worthwhile. And playing both Tithe and Chrome Mox together is counterintuitive since they have almost exactly opposite effects. Chrome Mox speeds you up at turn at the expense of card disadvantage. And Tithe slows you down a turn for a land that you would have had if you played a plains in Tithe's spot in the first place.

That freed up a lot of slots. When considering replacements, Whipcorder was most appealing...

A.) It's a great utility creature against everything from goblins to ATS.
B.) It can be played face down for it's morph cost to draw out any burn/hate that was meant for the Angel. And after the first time your opponent makes this mistake, they will be hesistant to burn or keg/disk/deed away morphs keeping your angel that much safer. This is especially useful against BBS where playing the Angel face down is the only real way to avoid having it countered but the morphed creatures are vulnerable to Keg.
C.) It's a rebel. I mention this because it opens up the ability to play a few Ramosian Sergent in the deck. The uncounterable card advantage that Sergent allows for in the deck is nuts against various aggro decks and mirror or WBBS match ups (which hate having their own angels, goblins, mongrels and other creatures tapped by multiple Whipcorders) and it often becomes yet another creature your opponent must throw their burn yet in order not to lose. It can even allow you to keep pace with an active survival. The more burn you're having thrown at one drops, the easier time you'll have against a lot of decks. The success I've had with the Sergent makes me think it may warrant a full 4 slots.

Cut a few pro red guys. This deck has a very solid match up against goblins. With the creature destruction, 15 Pro Red guys (counting SOFI, Mother of Runes etc) is just overkill. You really don't need to have more than one or two pro red creatures in play to screw up their attacks.

Phyrexian War Beast is a card I've had a great deal of success with in this deck. The 4 toughness makes it seem like a mini Angel for the purposes of dealing with Aggro. And you can consistently lay it down second turn thanks to the nonbasics. I think it certainly warrants a few slots.

Here's my current list...

12 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Tithe (I'm keeping these in for now just because I wanted to test with them a few more times before cutting them for good.)

4 Mother of Runes
3 Ramosian Sergent (May want to up the count to 4)
3 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda (Can also opt for a 2 Lions/3 Isamaru ratio)
3 Whipcorder - Taps everything from Goblins to Angels to Arrogant Wurms and shows up in uncounterable multiples thanks to Ramosian Sergent
2 Soltari Priest
2 Silver Knight
2 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Exalted Angel (The card is just too good to play any less.)

4 Swords to Plowshore
3 Disenchant
3 Mask of Memory
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

Test these changes out and lmk what you think. If you disagree, please tell me which assertions above you disagree with and why rather than just claiming that I'm wrong.

Zilla
11-23-2004, 06:50 PM
Zelyon:

I feel qualified to comment, as I have thoroughly tested every card in your proposed decklist over the course of several months of development on this deck. I'll go over my thoughts card-by card:

Tithe: One of the strongest cards in the deck and one of the deck's 3 card advantage engines. Anything less than 4 is folly, although I'm unsurprised that you're not liking them, because your white mana consistency is likely to be off, which leads me to my next point:

City of Traitors: The deck used to run 3 of them over Chrome Mox. They were replaced for several reasons: First, Moxen serve a similar purpose, in that they are accelleration. Second, they drastically increase your white mana consistency. Third, they have excellent synergy with Tithe, in that Tithe can either be pitched to Chrome Mox, or Tithe can be played first turn with only a Chrome Mox on the board, thereby netting you immediate card advantage. Fourth, they allow you to resolve a first turn morphed Angel, followed by a second turn attacking unmorphed Angel. Because you lose City after playing another land, they are inevitably going to cost you the same card advantage that Chrome Mox does. In short, Chrome Mox is the superior choice.

Ramosian Sergeant: Only good with Whipcorders, which brings me to...

Whipcorder: Used to be in the deck where the Priests are now. They were important as a bluffing technique in conjunction with Angels. With the loss of Mana Drain, they are much less effective against control, and aren't nearly aggressive enough for the deck's overall strategy.

Lions/Isamaru: The 4:1 ratio of Lions to Hounds has already been discussed in this thread. In theory, a 3:2 ratio can work, but it's essentially irrellevant. Most often, these guys are used for early game chump blockers, burn magnets, and Mox fodder. They're there to smooth your curve and not much else. As stated previously, I personally don't feel the one extra toughness is worth the risk of having dead cards in my hand, thus the 4:1 ratio. Furthermore, Isamaru sucks in the white aggro mirror. In the end, the difference is small enough not to debate. Run 2 Hounds if it makes you happy.

Soltari Priest: With the addition of Swords and Masks, their evasion is extremely important. I would go so far as to say that they are the most important creature in the deck, even over Angels, because they facilitate your draw engine. Running any less than 4 is a horrible, horrible mistake.

Silver Knight: In conjunction with Priests and Swords, Knights are singularly responsible for the deck's overwhelmingly strong game against Goblins, Burn, and RG Survival. Running any less than 4 significantly weaken's the deck's chances against some of the most prevalent decks in the format.

Phyrexian Warbeast: Card disadvantage in a deck that hates card disadvantage. Provides absolutely nothing that the deck's other threats don't already provide. You've offered not one shred of compelling evidence to suggest that these are of any value to the deck's strategy.

Parallax Wave: You've removed half of the deck's creature removal, a card which is vital to your ability to win ground wars against other aggro decks, and to protect your threats from mass removal. This alone makes me wonder if you've actually tested the deck against a wide variety of archetypes. 4 StP's and 3 Swords will not be enough to keep the deck alive against aggressive creature strategies. Removing Wave is preposterous.

In conclusion, my opinion is that you've made drastic changes to the deck which do absolutely nothing at all to improve its weak matchups, but which weaken many of its strong matchups. If your suggestions improved any matchups at all, they might be worth considering. As it stands, I see no benefit at all to these changes.

Carlos El Salvador
11-23-2004, 06:51 PM
Zel, although you make good points, you are really diluting the deck's power. And I beleve the reason for theith is to always have your WW for exalted Angel/Soltari Preist/Silver Knight. I would love to see how your doing without tithe though, but it seems kind oflike it's very iffy. As far as chrome mox goes, You should be able to overload on cards that the loss of some bad card (One of the other Isarmus, for example). Plus, this deck wants to beat control as fast as it can.

Zelyon
11-23-2004, 08:11 PM
You do make good points and undoutedly have a lot more experience with the deck. Based on the games I've played, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I'll go under the assumption that most of those choices you make are pretty optimal until I have the testing to back me up.

What I would like is an honest discussion of the strengths/weaknesses of the Ramosian Sergent/Whipcorder engine.

In the current meta, I really can't think of any noncombo decks where this engine with the Sergent's ability to be played before any control player can reach 1U, and then pump out multiple uncounterable excellent utility 2/2 creatures that can deal with so many common threats... Goblin Welder, Exalted Angel, Tradewind Rider, Goblin Piledriver or any other attacker, Psychatog, Arrogant Wurm, Mother of Runes etc. etc. etc.

Even against decks packing multiple counters/burn/removal spells, this engine is well worth it because either component works completely independently off the other and this effectively means there are six-eight (depending on how many slots you give the engine) more must counter/burn/remove creatures in your deck. This takes some of the heat off of your other MVPs like Mother of Runes, Exalted Angel as well as burn targeted at you.

I'm trying to think of a single noncombo deck where this engine isn't a large boon and I can't.

If playing this engine means putting less emphasis on the Mask of Memory engine, I think the trade of is well worth it. But I don't think such a trade is neccesary. This engine helps in all of the matches that Parallax Wave helps in and it helps in many matches that Parallax Wave is less than optimal in. I think moving 1-2 Waves to the sideboard, cutting a few one drops etc will free up enough room to play both engines simulatanously.

Zilla
11-23-2004, 11:55 PM
I'm afraid agreement to disagree is the only thing we can do. Ramosian Seargant has synergy with only Whipcorder. Sword and Mask have synergy with every single creature in the deck. Outside of a deck dedicated specifically to soldiers, I see no reason to dilute the consistency of the rest of any deck with an unnecessary "engine", particularly one which forces you to omit Parallax Waves, which are fundamental vital to this deck's strategy.

You say that the soldier engine is strong against noncombo decks, and yet you have yet to name a matchup that the engine improves that isn't already a very strong one for this deck. As for the Burn/Goblins matchup, I absolutely assure you that the loss of Knights/Priests will harm those matchups. I know because I've tested those matchups extensively with Whipcorders in place of Priests, and they weren't nearly as strong of matchups as they are now.

To summate: you're proposing the addition of an unnecessary engine, while replacing the very strongest elements of the deck as they pertain to a large portion of the field. As stated, I have yet to see the benefit inherent in the proposed changes. Until you can provide me with testing results definitively illustrating an improvement in results against one or more prevalent archetypes, I see no reason to continue the discussion.

banky
11-24-2004, 11:19 AM
The only reason I could possibly think to add the rebel engine would be to help the control match-up giving you a good one-drop into uncounter, recurring two-drops. But that point is nigh-useless as this deck already runs over most forms of control due to as Godzilla put it, "the high contigant of threats". We simply already have too many threats for any form of control, sans a board sweeper, to deal with. Thats why you dont over-exert and have the D-chants main and a second full set SB in the form of Seal.

jmorgue
11-24-2004, 03:06 PM
I'm trying to think of a single noncombo deck where this engine isn't a large boon and I can't.

I can. Anything with removal. Also in terms of it being a large boon, see the next sections.


If playing this engine means putting less emphasis on the Mask of Memory engine, I think the trade of is well worth it.

The problem here is that you're assuming the card advantage given from both engines is the same. Granted they each net you one card, but the way in which they accomplish this is much different. The mask engine not only provides card advantage, but it provides it as you apply pressure to the opponent. The Sergeant/Whipcorder engine also gives you a card each time it is used, but you're not applying any pressure while you do it. You're sacrificing an attacker to achieve the same amount of card advantage.

The goal of the deck is to keep pressure on your opponent with hard to remove attackers, in terms of protection and evasion, while maintaining card advantage. Sacrificing Knights and Priests for Sergeants and Whipcorders reduces your threat density, as Sergeants and Whipcorders are lousy attackers. Also fewer Knights and Priests makes the mask engine weaker.

You also didn't mention tempo with your rebel engine. The Sergeant requires 3 mana to search, and you have to tap it. What this means is that early/midgame you won't be able to search and play threats at the same time. Instead of using your mana to play good threats (Priests/Knights), you're using it for bad threats (Whipcorders). Also this deck doesn't want an excess of 1 drops that you can't attack with. Mother of Runes fills that role. Having 7 or 8 one drops that are poor attackers drastically reduces the effectiveness of the deck. You want fast, cheap beaters. Not slow, fragile card advantage.

I don't know how else to put it, the mask engine is clearly superior in terms of advantage (card and tempo) to *this* specific deck. You can't cut out the things that make this deck and engine good and replace them with a subpar engine. You're trying to go in a totally different direction than the deck wants to go in.

SpencerForHire
11-24-2004, 05:46 PM
The only reason I could possibly think to add the rebel engine would be to help the control match-up giving you a good one-drop into uncounter, recurring two-drops. But that point is nigh-useless as this deck already runs over most forms of control due to as Godzilla put it, "the high contigant of threats". We simply already have too many threats for any form of control, sans a board sweeper, to deal with. Thats why you dont over-exert and have the D-chants main and a second full set SB in the form of Seal.
It response to this comment, I just played a half-built form of this deck (minus two Priests cause I still need to find two; plus two plains) and this deck doesn't need any help with the control matchup. I swam right over MonoU Control. I had twice as many cards as he did and he ran out of counters or was tapped out for at least half my threats.

In response to any issues with the manabase. I ran 13 lands and 11 lands, this little difference is alot. When I ran with full priests I found that I might start with a few mana short. With 13 land the early game was eashy but I ended up with too much mana. I'm going to test with 12 but I think that 11 is the perfect amount. Just shuffle decent and even though mana may seem tight, you'll come on very strong and heavy all the way through the game. I find the early game similar to sligh and the late game equal to a control deck.

Zelyon
11-24-2004, 06:25 PM
Control is an easy matchup now?
Both Veldalken Shackles and Powder Kegs hurt you significantly. And most good control variant utilize both. Even Ophidian poses a pretty big problem when you can't resolve a swords of Wave. Any control deck splashing Exalted Angels itself will give you a hard time. BBS may not be heavily against you but I certainly wouldn't classify it as easy. And against the variants the splash white, this deck can have a hard time. Believe me, I know. I tested this pretty throughly against my BBS/w variant posted below.

I think there's a misconception about this deck. It may be fast but most of the aggro decks in the format are faster. It uses utility in the form of swords, first strikers and mother of runes to buy the time you need to win thanks to tempo and card advantage. And it does this very well against aggro decks. What this deck does have a hard time with or other slow decks like Survival and Control. And your Hounds and Lions don't do much to hurt these matchups. The second they play their Ophidian or any of their utility cards, you lose. As long as you don't cut the first strikers or the mothers of runes or swords to plowshores, aggro matchups are still heavily in your favor. And the tempo and card advantage that you gain by playing both the Mask of Memory and the Rebel engine in the midgame greatly aid against these matchups.

This deck simply has no means to deal Veldalken Shackles and will also lose a great deal to a Powder Keg. Your disenchants and Waves will simply not resolve. And I fully expect to see a playset of Shackles and a playset of Powder Kegs in the sideboard or maindeck atleast in a variety of control decks. But if it could play multiple Whipcorders, you can simply tap the creature they steal with Shackles or rapidly recover from Keg with your Sergents.

It's not a bad matchup but it's certainly not an easy one either. Without the second engine, you do have a hard time resolving anything significant for a long time. That decks angels counter act this decks angels fine and there's no way they're going to let you resolve a Wave. Even if you somehow resolve the wave, unless you already have an angel in play, they can easily afford to wait you out. And their card advantage is superior to your in every way.

Adding the rebel engine makes this a very favorable matchup since the whipcorders are counterable whether you play them morphed or with the sergent.

I'm not advocating cutting the SOFI, Mask of Memory or any of the pro red guys.

Here what I do advocate
-3 Savannah Lions (You really don't need them to beat aggro and Sergent are far better against control and survival variants)
-1 or 2 Parallax Wave (Whipcorders serve a similar function anyways)
-1 Disenchant (Considering how dead this is against popular decks like Goblin Sligh and Madness, three is too high a number to maindeck especially since Whipcorders improve the Survival matchup.)

+3 or 2 Ramosian Sergent
+3 Whipcorder



There is absolutely no reason why playing this second engine (3 Sergent/3 Whipcorder) requires that you cut either your pro red creatures or the masks of memory. Since the Sergents are one drops, you can easily cut a few Lions for them without really changing the deck much. You may not be able to chuck block with them quite as well as the lions but they'll help you get a lot more blockers quickly. Whipcorder serves a similar function to Parallax Wave by disabling one of their creatures so cutting one Wave certainly isn't going to significantly hurt any matchup.

Zilla
11-24-2004, 06:42 PM
Zelyon, Gimbles just said he'd tested the mono-blue matchup, and it was positive. I've tested the mono-blue matchup and it's positive. You claim Powder Keg is a problem, which a) is not even remotely solved by adding the Rebel engine, since they're hit by Keg also, and b) is not actually a problem at all unless you overcommit. Furthermore, the deck has 3 maindeck Disenchant effects and FIVE more in the board, not including Null Rod, which, incidentally, answers Shackles as well. Furthermore, a resolved Armageddon makes Shackles completely dead. You claim that all these answers are "automatically going to be countered", which apparently ignores the fact that for this to happen, your opponent must be ignoring the rest of your threats, which will absolutely crush them before Keg or Shackles are even an issue if they go unanswered.

I have three problems with your assertions:

1. You're making claims about the deck which strongly indicate a lack of actual playtesting, and are even going so far as to suggest that your assumptions about the matchup are somehow more relevant than other people's actual playtesting results.

2. You're proposing a "solution" which in fact does nothing whatsoever to answer these "problems", and are in fact more succeptible to them. Your answer to Powder Keg is to add 4 more 1cc creatures? How is this logical? How are they going to be any better against Shackles?

3. You're completely ignoring jmorgue's extremely relevant commentary about tempo; this deck is fast and aggressive. The rebel engine is non-aggressive card advantage which takes the pressure off the control player and gives them more time to prepare their defenses against you. It's utterly preposterous.

The bottom line is that you're taking a positive matchup, which you assume to be bad, and are changing the deck so that it actually has worse game against this matchup. It is completely outside of the realm of logic or reason.

hellfire1134
11-24-2004, 07:26 PM
I'm pretty sure a resolved angel will kill them before they can play powder keg and get enough counters on it. ALso if you know they are playing keg don't over commit. If you are just laying threat after threat and they drop the keg. You hold back and do as much as you can. Once they drop that keg you really shouldn't play much more. Am i wrong on this assumetion. Please correct me if i am.

Zelyon
11-24-2004, 08:04 PM
First, I don't like your accusation that I didn't test the deck. Look at the control deck posted below, I tested extensively against that deck and the it was a tough matchup.

If anything, your assertions that the 3 Sergent/3 Whipcorder addition I'm proposing doesn't help shows a lack of testing. The fact that you already determined how well the Sergents and the Whipcorders work even though I suggested them less than a day ago and from your replies, you didn't even decided they warranted consideration almost proves that all the claims you are making are based on no testing.

And how does the engine not help against Keg. The 1cc guys give you 2cc guys. And the Whipcorders can be played morphed for 0 casting cost. Your ability to keep a similar number of creatures at all casting costs is very helpful against Keg. If they keg for 2, the sergent helps you recover fast. If they keg for 1, the whipcorder you brought out help a great deal.

No, they never keg for the angel, that's absurdly difficult. But they play angels of their own as well as swords, shackles and thus can deal with an Angel on the board.

Please note, I'm not claiming that control decks are an exceedingly difficult matchups for this deck. But it's not nearly as easy a match as you guys are making it sound. If anything, after combo decks, blue based control is one of your tougher if not toughest matchup. Considering that trying to shore up combo is a lost cause, why not shore up control? Versatile uncounterable threats that can deal with many of their answers is a good place to start.

They can and will save counters for cards like Wave and Disenchant because your early critters aren't that dangerous. That's how you beat the deck. Counter the big stuff and disenchants and use Keg, Ophidian, or Shackles to deal with your small stuff. It works very well without the utility (whipcorder can deal with shackles or ophidian or their angels) or ability to quickly recover from Keg the Sergent provides. Trust me, the fact that Ophidian, Shackles or Keg (and my and most variants run all three) are your best bet against them. And if you hold back your threats, it will make winning that much harder for you once they do get a shackles out and only bother to counter your disenchants.

It sounds like the opponent you were playing wasn't holding back his counters for the cards that actually matter. Perhaps thats what accounts for our different results.

The deck is fast but it's not fast enough. Both Shackles and Ophidan come down early and they shut down most of your threats. This is also why it's a bad decision for you opponent to not save counters for the threats that actually matter. It's utility that wins the control matchup against decks that run Shackles, Keg, Phid, not speed. Remember, these control decks were designed to compete with faster decks like Goblins. This deck simply won't be able to rush them. It has to rely on the utility of its creatures. Whipcorder gives it that.

I have to go out of town for Thanksgiving now and thus probably won't be able to come online for several days.

That should give you a chance to test against a good control deck that can afford to hold back counters both with and without this engine. Lmk what you find after you do that.

Zilla
11-24-2004, 08:30 PM
Remember the agreement to disagree? We're going to go with that. Everyone who's tested the deck but you agrees that the Rebel engine is unnecessary to the point of absurdity. Further discussion on the matter will be moderated.

banky
11-24-2004, 10:19 PM
The only reason I could possibly think to add the rebel engine would be to help the control match-up giving you a good one-drop into uncounterable, recurring two-drops. But that point is nigh-useless as this deck already runs over most forms of control due to as Godzilla put it, "the high contingant of threats". We simply already have too many threats for any form of control, sans a board sweeper, to deal with. Thats why you dont over-exert and have the D-chants main and a second full set SB in the form of Seal.
It response to this comment, I just played a half-built form of this deck (minus two Priests cause I still need to find two; plus two plains) and this deck doesn't need any help with the control matchup. I swam right over MonoU Control. I had twice as many cards as he did and he ran out of counters or was tapped out for at least half my threats.

In response to any issues with the manabase. I ran 13 lands and 11 lands, this little difference is alot. When I ran with full priests I found that I might start with a few mana short. With 13 land the early game was eashy but I ended up with too much mana. I'm going to test with 12 but I think that 11 is the perfect amount. Just shuffle decent and even though mana may seem tight, you'll come on very strong and heavy all the way through the game. I find the early game similar to sligh and the late game equal to a control deck.
1. If you actually READ my post you will notice the part I made bold in the quote. Read it. I already knew the control match-up was strong and didnt need to be made more-so by adding the "rebel engine".

2. Tithe is the key to a good mana-base. The only reason I could see having too few mana is that you chucked Tithe to Chrome Mox where its expendable early threats like Lions/Hounds that you wanna pitch towards C. Moxen.

Edit: BTW Godzilla, even though this is off-topic, thanks for introducing a strong, viable white-weenie that has a great feel of the old white-weenie from days long past while upping its power through some clever card advantage engines. This has become my new pet deck of choice for playing over the past few weeks and Ive had a blast.

SpencerForHire
11-24-2004, 10:39 PM
I like the control feel of this deck, it has an aggressive start making it strong early, then turns into Mono W control. (I know I've said this before but I wish to state it again)
For future notice it is best to improve weak matchups as opposed to adding new sources to beat an already strong matchup. In replacement of Armageddon, since the manabase is a bit low any LD might ruin this deck, would Sacred Ground be a good answer for this.. I haven't really seen any LD in my area so I couldn't really test this (especially because I'm not sure how big the threat of LD might be in 1.5.

banky
11-24-2004, 10:49 PM
The only real weakness we have to LD is non-basic hate, and since we are only running 4x Ancient Tomb, most decks wont bring in stuff like B2B and just survive off its MD'ed stockpile of Wastelands.

Zilla
11-26-2004, 03:49 AM
The only real weakness we have to LD is non-basic hate, and since we are only running 4x Ancient Tomb, most decks wont bring in stuff like B2B and just survive off its MD'ed stockpile of Wastelands.
I believe Gimbles is referring to something along the lines of Mono-G Land Destruction (though not exclusively, necessarily), which run cards like Ice Storm and Thermokarst. Even your Plains are succeptible to these threats. However, I don't know that Sacred Ground would be a necessary SB option against LD decks; Tithe is actually very strong against these types of strategies, because they turn opposing land removal into card advantage for you. Further, you have Chrome Moxen which are immune to land destruction, meaning you should have a decent game against land destruction strategies without dedicating SB slots to improving this matchup.

I've tested the Mono-G LD matchups against Artowis' build (which I think is rather strong), and as I recall the matchup was in Angel Stompy's favor. I'm afraid I don't recall details, so I'm unable to provide them for you, but my inclination is to say that the SB doesn't need improvement for this matchup, even if you do happen to see it in your metagame.

banky
11-26-2004, 11:52 AM
Oh, well I never thought of Mono-G LD as much of a viable deck because too many games your opponents just get more land than you can destroy. Every now and then the LD player may get a nice grip of two or three lands trimmed out to the max with LD, but for the most part, I never seem to topdeck more than three or four forms of LD beyond whats in my initial seven.

SpencerForHire
11-29-2004, 01:49 PM
Better Sideboarding If Not Maindecking.
After some thought and a little work I have come up with a quite strong solution to one of the biggest threat for this deck as well as a replacement for the questionablility of Armageddon in the sideboard.
I know this deck has the ability to make this a first turn play and a strong ability to make a second turn play of it. That solution is Trinisphere. Solidarity sit down, beltcher you lose. Thats the solution, it is completely playable and doable.
I have tested some and I find the mana is quite accessible to get. Since this deck has an extreme disadvantage to Belcher and Solidarity because of its inability to deal with it much at all I find that 3sphere would very much be a nice SB card for replacement of the armageddons which have been in question for most of the discussion on this deck.
SB:
-1 Disenchant
-3 Armageddon
+4 Trinisphere

I see no problems with playing this card, getting it out means no thank you to combo and it slows down other aggro matchups that might questionably have a chance of out racing you without the hate (sligh). You can go turn 1 (or 2 even) trinisphere, turn 2 morphed creature, turn 3 unmorph and your opponent is just getting their first goblin played, even if it's a lackey they are still done for. Even if you had to pay 3 and 2 life to play a mother of runes trinisphere is more than worth consideration.

SpatulaOfTheAges
11-29-2004, 02:22 PM
If Belcher is in your meta, it seems okay; if you're worried about Solidarity, it's much weaker, since they might be able to answer it later, and either one will likely win you the game if they resolve.

Zilla
11-30-2004, 01:35 AM
As far as versatile answers against a large number of archetypes go, however, Trinisphere is pretty high up there, particularly because the deck is so well-equipped to play around it. However, Armageddon is also there for the control matchup, where I think Trinisphere is not likely to be as effective. Hard to say for sure. I'll give it some testing.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
11-30-2004, 07:49 AM
Question: How strong are Tithe and Chrome Mox actually in this deck? We did some playtesting with Angel Stompy against various decks Friday night, which was my first real experience with the deck. I noticed that the deck is extremely swingy; sometimes it would get nigh-unbeatable hands, but sometimes it would just piddle out into a collection of unrelated parts. This isn't to say that I think the deck is bad, but rather that I think that it's a deck that requires agressive mulliganing to really play well. And Tithe and Chrome Mox are not cards I want to draw when I'm down to a five card hand, Chrome Mox particularly so. Tithe might provide card advantage in some instances, but many times I had to throw back hands that would've been amazing if the Tithes had been Plains instead, or even manlands (Weathered Wayfarer in it's place would, at the very least, beat, instead of doing jack diddly in the late game when I'm sitting with a Sword on the board).

Zilla
11-30-2004, 08:10 AM
Interesting observations, IBA. I haven't noticed much inconsidtency in my testing, but I think it may be due to a difference in mulligan styles. Unlike most decks, I'm willing to keep an extremely mana-light hand, because the deck has so many ways of compensating. My general rule of thumb for mulligans with this deck (for lands specificatlly; obviously the non-land cards are relevant too) is that if a hand has either a Plains or a Chrome and any other mana source (Tithe, Tomb, Mox, or Plains) I'll keep it. Given the deck's curve, you have plenty of 1cc white spells, and you have plenty of colorless spells in the 2-3cc range, so as long as you have one white source along with pretty much any other mana source in the deck, you're going to do fine. You've got a total of 22 mana sources in the deck, so your likelihood of topdecking into a third source by turn 3 is high. Because you have 14 white sources, you should be getting at least one in every opening draw.

Incidentally, to answer your question about Chrome Mox, I feel it's necessary, simply because if you're running Cities in their place, your white consistency is too low, and if you're running Plains in their place, your ability to consistently cast a 1st or 2nd turn Morph or Sword goes down dramatically. This is, of course, working under the assumption that you think running Tithes is worth it, and I most certainly do. In months' worth of testing, I've found them to be unequivocably strong card advantage elements. I agree that they force the occasional mull, but in my experience their payoff greatly outweighs their drawbacks.

My only suggestion at this point would be to try some test games where you keep hands that you'd normally throw away (regarding mana content specifically - obviously if the rest of the hand is crap, throw it back), and see what happens. I could be wrong, but my theory is that the disparity you describe may be resulting from your mulligan style. Humor me if you will - give it a try and see if your results are any different.

FakeSpam
11-30-2004, 11:43 AM
About Trini-sphere. I don't think it's going to be that effective, unless against Belcher, consiidering Brainfreeze is going to be running ways to bounce it, and 2 turns, I think, sin't enough of a speedbump. At least with True Believer you can protect it with Mother of Runes and Sword of Fire and Ice.

This is TB, btw.

SpencerForHire
11-30-2004, 11:56 AM
True Believer isn't gone. This is in addition to the believer so you have twice the hate against the combo decks. Think how much a first turn 3sphere owns any deck.. This deck has the potent to be like a workshop deck and drop one first turn easily. Even on second turn when this deck consistantly has 3 it is an easy play, after a first turn mom or lion it could wreck many a deck.

Phyxius
11-30-2004, 01:29 PM
I also have seen some of IBAs mana issues, but I think that is related to my testing style more than the deck. When I am learning a new deck I never mulligan the first few game just to make sure I have a feel for the deck in general. As a reault I have had games where my only mana source was a Tomb and still had decent results. 1st turn Mask. 2nd turn critter and then start swinging with the mask on turn 3. This deck has so many mana fixers that you can keep most any hand. (as long as it has land).

Also As 'zilla stated Mox is a must. Nothing better that Mox, Tomb, Morph. Then second turn flip angel and attack. :D

banky
11-30-2004, 02:20 PM
I was having the mana problems with probably my first few games, but thats mostly because I am a BBS player at heart and absolutely dispise hands with little mana/fixers. Then my testing partner watched me play a few games and slapped my strait about my mulliganing style.

Guess thats what I get for never venturing from control before.

hellfire1134
11-30-2004, 03:35 PM
True Believer isn't gone. This is in addition to the believer so you have twice the hate against the combo decks. Think how much a first turn 3sphere owns any deck.. This deck has the potent to be like a workshop deck and drop one first turn easily. Even on second turn when this deck consistantly has 3 it is an easy play, after a first turn mom or lion it could wreck many a deck.
Never compare this to a workshop deck. What workshop does is drop a turn 1 sphere followed by some fat on turn 2. I do belive 3sphere is a good choice. If droped first turn Belcher dies, Solidarity has to stall. Survival too has to stall. It grants you tiem against any deck. I believe 1-2 should be included not too many becuase drawing it in doubles sucks but enough so that you can tutor for it and/or have a good chance of drawing one.

SpencerForHire
11-30-2004, 04:43 PM
I believe 1-2 should be included not too many becuase drawing it in doubles sucks but enough so that you can tutor for it and/or have a good chance of drawing one.
I would never mind drawing extra as it leads to a definate choice of a card to discard to Mask of Memory.



Never compare this to a workshop deck. What workshop does is drop a turn 1 sphere followed by some fat on turn 2.

3 Sphere is in no way a workshop deck, but with the ability to cast a card that means game over many times to a type 1 deck, a slightly slowed format in 1.5 it must be a house. Also, angel is quite.. "fat" is it not?

hellfire1134
11-30-2004, 04:48 PM
By drop fat i meant like the turn afterwards. Workshop is infinitely different than this deck. The difference is in the ofrmat though. Now to get back on topic Trinisphere sounds right for this deck. But hat to cut.

Sims
11-30-2004, 06:04 PM
Never compare this to a workshop deck. What workshop does is drop a turn 1 sphere followed by some fat on turn 2. I do belive 3sphere is a good choice. If droped first turn Belcher dies, Solidarity has to stall. Survival too has to stall. It grants you tiem against any deck. I believe 1-2 should be included not too many becuase drawing it in doubles sucks but enough so that you can tutor for it and/or have a good chance of drawing one.
And why shouldn't he compare this to an Aggro Shop deck? Aggro shop uses mass tempo created by the Workshop and its control/lock elements with Artifact Fat. This deck uses Chrome Mox, Tithe, and Ancient tomb to create a tempo swing that will allow it to disrupt the game with it's control elements (Swords, Wave) and ride it's own fat to the win (Angel and it's smaller beaters). It seems like a decent comparison to me.

You need to include more than 2 Trinispheres due to your lack of Tutoring. You can't just E.Tutor for it in this deck, you have to draw it. And while the draw engines placed in this deck are rather insane, 2 is still too few. Also, it was a tad difficult to read your post coherently as it contained more sentence fragments than it did full sentences. Please work on that :)

Zilla
12-01-2004, 05:19 AM
Trinisphere sounds right for this deck. But hat to cut.
First, Trinisphere seems right for the deck, in certain circumstances. Before we assume that that assumption is correct, people ought to actually test it first. Second, if it does get included, it belongs in the sideboard, not the maindeck. What to cut is irrellevant because it's a metagame issue. If you see Solidarity but not Belcher or Ravager, drop the Rods. If you see Solidarity and Ravager or Belcher but not a lot of Survival, then drop the Seals. Bottom line, though: they don't improve nearly enough matchups to belong in the maindeck. They'd primarily be anti-combo tools. In this format, there's hardly any combo to be worrying about. Cutting maindeck threats for Trinispheres is definitely a mistake.

Bryant Cook
12-01-2004, 06:05 PM
What's the current sideboard for the deck??

Zilla
12-01-2004, 07:30 PM
What's the current sideboard for the deck??
Sideboards are inherently metagame dependent, thus there's no "current sideboard", per se. The default sideboard is the one you see in the original post in this thread. I'm testing Trinispheres over Null Rods for the time being, but only because there isn't much Ravager or Belcher in my meta.

SpencerForHire
12-01-2004, 08:17 PM
I like True Believers in the board and thus reccomend taking a look at them if your unsure of what decks you might face. They can really wreck combo and they are easy to side in, what you would remove for them is a matter of preference.
My 2 cents.

Zilla
12-01-2004, 11:29 PM
Yeah, I thought so too. In theory they're awesome against combo. In reality, almost every sem-viable combo deck in the format (Belcher, Solidarity, Enchantress, Trx, Pebbles, etc.) has a way to remove them, so they typically end up buying you a turn at most. This might be worth it if there was a whole lot of combo running around, but there's not really, so I don't think it is.

banky
12-03-2004, 03:02 PM
I think I just found a major weakness for Angel Stompy in SD Zoo

While playing, I had the early jump playing more threats, but as soon as he hit 4 lands, Blastoderms, Baloths and Troll Ascetics made my life a living hell. I had to begin chumping with the small men while racing with Shadow/Angel Beats as I couldnt remove 2/3s of his men. The Angel alone allowed me to survive many more turns that I should have been able too, but his Boloths did the similar for him.

SpencerForHire
12-03-2004, 06:18 PM
If you are going to play alot of zoo, it is best to board (or MD) several WoG effects. This will allow you the ability to get around the "cannot be target" abilities of many creatures that the deck runs. As far as angels go, just load all your swords onto them and swing as hard and fast as you can if you can't come up with some hate.
Because of the equipment cards Angel Stompy runs, it has a better cardadvantage to get more beats out faster than a deck running simply tithe for CA. Logically you should be able to overrun them before baloths become to much trouble.

Happy Gilmore
12-03-2004, 06:39 PM
//NAME: Legacy Angel Stompy
// Mana
11 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Tithe
// Beats
4 Mother of Runes
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
// Control & Draw
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
3 Mask of Memory
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Parallax Wave
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 4 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 3 Decree of Justice
SB: 3 Armageddon
This confuses me alot. why are you running so many equipment spells when you can just run enlightened tutor and save some space?

currently, as far as I can see, your spell list looks like this:


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
3 Mask of Memory
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Parallax Wave
3 Chrome Mox
4 Tithe

but how about something like this-->

4 Tithe
3 Wave
3 Disenchant
4 Swords
3 Mox
3 Mask
1 Sword
3 Enlightened Tutor

1 sword: Contrary to popular belief, Sword isnt as fly as it looks. Yes it is a very powerful removal mechanism, but it slows you down substancially. One Mask could be taken out for another, if neccessary.

Why, why would you not run one of your best utility spells? Your SB becomes 9548950678480x more effective. If you have a reason for not running it I would like to hear the reasoning. In actuality, it has no outward affect on the tempo of the deck except to make it faster.

SpencerForHire
12-03-2004, 06:48 PM
The point isn't consistency, you want to get as many equips onto your beasts as possible, meaning MORE then 3 out. Enlightened tutor takes away one card advantage despite it's ability to grab Parallax which I rather like, I want to have many equipment cards on every possible creature, I LIKE filling my hand.
I'd rather not run enlightened for the simple reason my opponent gets two chances to stop me from getting spell "X", they already know what it will be from the tutor, and because I'm running half again as many equips, if they do stop it EITHER TIME then I am SOL on card advantage almost for certain.

Zilla
12-03-2004, 07:29 PM
1 sword: Contrary to popular belief, Sword isnt as fly as it looks. Yes it is a very powerful removal mechanism, but it slows you down substancially. One Mask could be taken out for another, if neccessary.

Why, why would you not run one of your best utility spells? Your SB becomes 9548950678480x more effective. If you have a reason for not running it I would like to hear the reasoning. In actuality, it has no outward affect on the tempo of the deck except to make it faster.
If you'd bothered to read the post you quoted, you would know the answers to these questions.

Read the section on Sword of Fire and Ice. It's one of the strongest cards in the deck. This deck is uniquely equipped to abuse it because of all the mana accellerants. The fact that you're suggesting that 1 is enough means you haven't been testing, or you're playing the deck improperly.

Read the section on Enlightened Tutor. It explains clearly why it's not in the deck. Tutor costs you mana and a turn to go get something you want right now. We want threats, not search. This isn't a toolkit deck - it is a consistent, redundant beating machine. We don't want silver bullets, we want boxes full of 12 gauge .00 buckshot.

In short, read the whole goddamned post. If you want my reasoning, it's right there in black and white.

banky
12-04-2004, 01:08 AM
If you want my reasoning, it's right there in black and white.
<span id='ME'><center>banky coughs</center></span>

Black and grey!

<span id='ME'><center>banky coughs</center></span>

Anyways, back to the topic ... besides utterly molesting my SB with useless WoG's which hurt me just as much as the SD Zoo player, how can we improve this match-up? I guess fast Armageddon before he can get to the treasured 4-mana count could work. But that would be hard as he runs Werebears so I would have to be playing first or play both a combination of Mox and Tomb within the first two turns.

Don Juan-Suave
12-04-2004, 03:26 AM
Mother of Runes could block the green creatures all day. A sworded Silver Knight should be able to take down any creature, except for Blastoderm. But if you are still having problems with SD Zoo, maybe sideboarding Circle of Protection: Green could help. I believe the CoP can get around the untargetable effect. Another possible idea is to replace True Believer in the sideboard with one, two, or even three Solitary Confinement. The 3 x Mask of Memory and 3 x Sword of Fire and Ice should allow you to support the enchantment.

SpencerForHire
12-04-2004, 04:00 AM
An interesting idea I got while playing some T2.
Ghostly Prison: The prison is a pseudo lasting solution against the heavy beats of not only SD zoo but almost every aggro deck in the format. Cutting tempo for most of those decks in half. Sure it is much easier to remove than a one time money shot like armageddon, but if they don't have the answer they are probably finished as your angel will bring you unmanably above them into the "I win" zone. Many other SB options could be hated just as much by the splash damage against Survival but I think that after game one this could be a solid choice.
As for the general problem against zoo, you just have to play different, if you know your facing zoo your halfway there, I find it is quite easy to take different decks if you just play your deck differently, it's more and more back to "Whos the beatdown" (anyone with an article link might be nice). Just playing smart can easily win this matchup.
I can't say i've had in depth experience versus this threat but I have played some and the matchup wasn't as bad as your making it sound.

banky
12-04-2004, 02:23 PM
He could have had the god-hand, I guess, but two Baloths, two Ascetics and THREE Blastoderms where just a living nightmare for me during my last game of testing. Ill do some more testing tonight.

danyul
12-13-2004, 03:26 PM
It seems like this thread has died but I started testing/playing this deck as soon as I saw Godzilla's first post and, I must say, this deck is a blast to play.

The only real problem I have with this deck is that it sometimes auto-loses because it cant put two white mana on the table. I have lost to some janky, unworthy piles because of plain ol' mana screw. I dont know if this has been much of a problem for you guys but with only 18 mana sources I find it difficult to hit 2WW by the fourth (ideally second or third) turn.

On the other hand, this deck has some nasty God-draws in which I drop and unmorph an Exalted by the second turn and equip a SoFI on it third turn.Those games are usually auto-wins but come about as often as the No-White-Mana games do.

Maybe the mana issues are just a necessary evil. Have you guys been having any problems with the mana? I've been testing on Magic Workstation for the most part and their shuffling program is notoriously buggy but I did take the deck to a local tourney and, playing 3 rounds of swiss, was mana-screwed only once. Hmm, maybe it's just Workstation that sucks.

Another thing - I find that I am forced to mulligan aggressively in order to get a playable hand (i.e. a hand with two white sources or at least one and a Tithe).

Have any of you guys been having trouble with this deck? I really do like it, regardless of what this post may imply. I just wish I didnt lose winnable match-ups to mana-screw so often.

Zilla
12-14-2004, 04:35 AM
The white mana issue has been brought up before, yes. It was certainly a bigger issue before the Cities of Traitors were replaced with Chrome Moxen, but some people still claim they're having problems. I do my testing both in Apprentice and with actual cards, and I've not been experiencing a consistent problem.

Bear in mind it's okay to keep a one-plains hand. Typically speaking, you should be topdecking into another white source by turn 3 at the very latest. If this hasn't proven true for you, (and I do recommend testing with real cards, even if it requires making some proxies), then I'd suggest dropping the 3rd Mask of Memory for another Plains and see how that treats you. First and foremost, though, try some games with real cards and see if the problem persists.

danyul
12-15-2004, 12:46 PM
Thanks, I will certainly try testing with real cards. And I didnt realize that a one-plains hand was playable.

I was curious - what did your Skullclamp build look like? At my local tourney (and I know this will sound broken) we have no restrictions on decks. As long as the other players arent annoyed, you can play anything. Again, I was just curious.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-15-2004, 01:32 PM
Bear in mind
Just stopping by to throw out a card for consideration: Reprisal. Probably just as an SB card, but the idea of having more answers on top of Swords to permanently deal with opposing fatties seems like it could come in handy. I know you also have Parallax Wave, but that doesn't permanently deal with anything, and is easy both to Counter, and to Disenchant/Naturalize at inopportune times. Obviously this is mainly a metagame call, but the card seems more useful in the mirror match and against decks like Rock and U/G Madness than Wave does.

SpencerForHire
12-15-2004, 02:25 PM
The one land hand has to be decent though. Never keep a one land hand that doesn't have STP or multiple 1 drops, or at least a nice solid Mother of Runes to drop first. Otherwise you might wanna mulligan anyways.

In my experience the there are few things that give this deck real trouble. I haven't had any issues with survival or ATS, only Belcher and Solidarity, and after boarding these are still not that much of an issue. I gotta say if we just get a couple good tourney placements this deck has the potential to end up in the Metagame section. Cmon guys, show em how much damage the Albino Fish can do!

Zilla
12-15-2004, 02:55 PM
I should perhaps have been more explicit when I said a one Plains hand is keepable. First, it's absolutely got to have at least one other mana source, be it a Tithe or a Moxen or a Tomb. The circumstances where a one-mana hand is keepable are almost non-existent. Second, as Gimbles said, the hand has to have some merit on its own to be worth keeping with only a single Plains. You're either going to want a healthy number of one-drops, or a Sword or Angel along with a Tomb to keep a one Plains hand. My point was only that hands with a single white source are not automatic thow-aways.

With regards to the Skullclamp list, I can provide it if you want, but to be truthful I think the current build is actually superior to it. If Skullclamp were legal, I'd still play the current build. The older build was a bit slower and more controlling than the modern build, and I think a more aggressive approach is better for the current metagame. If you're still interested in seeing the old list, send me a PM and I'll reply with the list.

@Reprisal: A definite metagame call, but perhaps correct in the right circumstances. Typically, Parallax Wave and StP answer most of your creature problems. The only creatures the deck tends to have problems with are untargetable ones (e.g., Morphling), and Reprisal doesn't help there. In an extremely creature-heavy meta it could be a good call though. You're also right that it could be strong in the mirror and against UG Madness.

pohlo
12-15-2004, 06:03 PM
Recently I played a version of Angel Stompy that a friend of mine (scrumdogg) was gracious enough to let me borrow for the local 1.5 in Worcester, MA which I ended up winning (5-0). Throughout the tournament I only lost 2 games one to Macguyver and one other to Goblins. The decklist that I am posting below is the work of scrumdogg, however I think that both of us would like any comments or questions about the build.

//Land
13x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb

//Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Soltari Priest
4x Auriok Champion
2x True Believer
4x Silver Knight
3x Soltari Visionary
1x Devout Witness
3x Exalted Angel

//Spells
3x Chrome Mox
3x Tithe
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Parallax Wave

//Equipment
3x Mask of Memory
3x Sword of Fire and Ice

//Sideboard
3x Armageddon
4x Honorable Passage
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Aura of Silence
1x True Believer
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Let's see before I get asked no that is not a typo on the Exalted Angel count, I could only get my hands on three. Therefore that is one change I would most likely make before I play it again. Probably removing the one Devout Witness and replacing it with Exalted Angel. During our three round cut to final four tournament, in the first round I ended up playing a random deck. While not the best thing to prove the effectiveness of the deck the next round I was paired against i believe niknight playing his modified version of Macguyver. It was during this round against SotF where the Soltari Visionary was an unbelievable asset. StP's were held in hand by niknight to deal with this threat rather than remove other threats such as Solitari Priest for obvious reasons. In this round I ended up winning 2-1. The next round was against Monored Goblins where I lost the first match because I did not see enough of my Pro red creatures and also because he came out extremely quickly. However in games 2 and 3 the tables were turned, mainly due to dropping an Auriok Champion, Silver Knight and Soltari Priest as well as Armageddon in both games 2 and 3. The life gain from the Auriok Champion helped me recover some of the life lost due to early burn and beats as well as helping block his remaining threats allowing me to win both games 2 and 3.

Once the final round was complete we cut to final four where I was paired against niknight again with Macguyver. The first match was over in a short span of time due to a first turn morphed angel, turn 2 morph swing and he didn't have the StP. After that I continued to drop threats on the remaining turns and we quickly proceded to match 2. In the second match I once again sided in Armageddon. Game 2 was similar to game 1 due to the sheer volume of threats that were dropped turn after turn using both the mask and the sword do their full potentials and from there I proceded to the finals. In the finals I played against Goblins which was extremely easy because I saw a lot of pro red creatures and I easily won both games 1 and 2, sideboarding in armageddon in game 2.

I have to say that Angel Stompy is one of the most fun decks that I have played in a while and will continue to play it while I can :) Anyways I was hoping that I could get some comments and suggestions to the decklist as it stands and also some sideboard reconmendations.

NeoMike
12-15-2004, 11:29 PM
Congrats on the win pohlo, let me see how much I can be of service. First of all, I see no real point in running 1 Isamaru when you have no other Savanh lion type creatures. I would probobly try and drop it for a forth mox for consistant turn 1, WW creature. Secondly There are a few numbers I am confused with, namely Swords to Plowshares, Parallax Wave, and as you stated, Exalted Angel. For these I would drop the obvious; Soltari Visionary + Devout Witness. These cards are semi-useful, but too slow, for speed purposes you should use Kami of the Ancinet Law, I hear turn 1-2 no summoning sickness is good. I suggest trying these changes.
-1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
-3 Soltari Visionary
-1 Devout Witness
-1 Auriok Champion
+1 Chrome mox
+1 Exalted Angel
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Parallax Wave
+2 Kami of the Ancient Law (if SotF is in your meta, drop a Mask or Sword of F/I for #3)

Hope this helps in anyway it can. Like I said, "if SotF is in your meta you definitely want that 3rd Kami of Ancient Law". Again congrats on the win, and welcome to The Source.

ForceofWill
12-16-2004, 08:54 AM
//Land
13x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb

//Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Soltari Priest
4x Auriok Champion
2x True Believer
4x Silver Knight
3x Soltari Visionary
1x Devout Witness
3x Exalted Angel

//Spells
3x Chrome Mox
3x Tithe
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Parallax Wave

//Equipment
3x Mask of Memory
3x Sword of Fire and Ice

//Sideboard
3x Armageddon
4x Honorable Passage
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Aura of Silence
1x True Believer
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Hey Gunnari. Welcome to the source.

Next.. How has 3 main parallax been doing. I really did not like this card maindeck as in a lot of matches it's a dead card. I'd rather be sideboarding it. Swords to plowshares is a must 4 of card due to it's good against everything and because we have a lot of exalted angels going around.

Heres what I"d suggest -4 champion -1 witness -3 parallax wave +3 Savannah lions + 1 tithe + 1 Stp +1 angel (if you get it) +1 Sword oFI +1 Visionary.

Elvenwish
12-16-2004, 10:15 AM
I would be interested to know how Parallax Wave is dead. Against combo perhaps but against any other aggro deck I can't see it as being dead. I would definitely not suggest dropping three from the main deck and would quite honestly suggest the use of four. The card allows for so much. I must say there have been quite a few times where I have actually targeted my own creatures due to mass removal of some sort. I guess it is a meta-game call.

Another interesting inclusion I find is Kami of Ancient Law. I understand the whole "disenchant (sort of) with a body" aspect but honestly, does it merit replacement over Disenchant itself? The instant speed of Disenchant has proved invaluable to me numerous times and against survival it seems that it would be much easier to play around. I am all for great abilities on a body and could see this card as a sideboard card for more enchantment heavy matches but I am not too sure about it being main deck and honestly feal seal of cleansing and Disechant are much better cards.

pohlo
12-16-2004, 01:20 PM
I have to say that I really appreciate the feedback that has been given, lots of constructive criticism. There are a few things with numbers that I will get out of the way before I go any further. I had to add the StP's right before the tournament and I couldn't determine exactly what to take out for the fourth one. However I do agree that the count should be at 4 and plan to take out a Devout Witness to rectify that situation. On another subject Parallax Wave, this was another case in which I could only get three of them. This is a card that I didn't come to fully appreciate until after the tournament I some casual games. It was never a deciding factor in the tournament games, however I do very much like the idea of having them in the deck. Yet I have not run into a situation where I would desire to have a fourth and for the mean time I will continue to run three, but if I am able I will take the time to test with a fourth.

//@ NeoMike
I really like the idea of the Kami of Ancient Law and will definately have to test that against the Soltari Visionary. The ability to drop it turn 1 or 2 requires a SotF player to be a little bit more cautious unless they are holding an StP in hand. On the other hand I don't like the idea of a fourth Chrome Mox. I really like to get one of them in my opening hand but multiple moxes in my opening hand is not really something I like to see. Especially since I have to go down multiple cards to get any benefit.

//@ ForceofWill
While the Parallax Waves have not had a deep impact on the games that I played in the tournament I believe that they will be more applicable in other metagames. Also I like the idea of mainboard mass removal even if it is me saving my creatures from something nasty or removing their creatures so I can swing for the win. I would most certainly like to add a fourth Tithe however once again I could only get my hands on 3. This would be another card that I would like to increase the count on but it is hindered by my lack of owning them. I like the idea of adding the Savannah Lions and would like to test them in place of the Champions. On the fourth SoFI I haven't really had a problem seeing a Sword when I needed it. Potentially it might be one copy too many then and I could see multiple copies when I would prefer to draw another threat. I think the sword is great but sometimes you would rather draw another creature. Due to our metagame I think the fourth Visionary would be a wise decision. I hope to due testing between the Visionary and the Kami to determine which would be a more versatile creature.

//@Elvenwish
I have already discussed the fourth Parallax Wave so no need to go into that :) As stated before I am going to have to do some more testing with Disenchant, Soltari Visionary, and Kami of Ancient Law.

At this time I would like to say thank you to the welcomes to the site. I really like what I have seen so far and look forward to more discussions about this fantastic format. Thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions.

scrumdogg
12-16-2004, 07:44 PM
Look where we play and what shows up - Goblin Sligh, Hung Sligh, Sligh Sligh. The ability to block them all day long and keep gaining life seems fine to me. And on a related note, Bikini Chick (Auriok Champion) was MVP all day for me at the Big Arse tourney in my WW deck. Life gain that swings or blocks & is resistant to all common removal other than Wrath of God and STP is fine - because who wants to STP a Bikini Chick?

What else sees significant play in our area...SotF. You cannot effectively deal with SotF by using Disenchant unless your opponent is a 'tard. They will accept your temporary disruption, recover, and deal with you. The same goes for Kami, who although cheaper to play than Visionary, has the same disadvantage as Disenchant. Visionary has several advantages in this deck and this archetype.
A) He provides consistent advantage against SotF by forcing them to recur it EVERY turn and then use it (essentially) as a sorcery speed effect. This is true disruption, the kind which allows you truly take advantage of the tempo of this deck.
B) He provides this advantage because he has evasion. SotF is never going to be able to block him and Mom is often hanging around to protect his skinny ass.
C) The evasion also means that Visionary is a fine target for both SoFI and Mask as well, since he optimizes their abilities by forcing them through. Soltari Priests are all well & good, but more shadow critters, especially those with a key ability versus one the most played cards in the format seems good to me.
D) The only true way to deal with Visionary (unless you are lucky enough to have evaded Mom or SoFI on the table...) is to STP him. What deck, dreading the Angel, wants to use STP on a Visionary? Yet SotF decks are almost forced to do that.

Don't get me wrong, Kami is a fine man....thing....spirit....but without the Witnesses and Genesises of other decks, he is the wrong play, imo. Should there be 4 STP maindeck? Absolutely, yes. And it seems that the Witness is the right card to replace, although now there are zero ways to deal with non-creature artifacts in the maindeck....darn it. Disenchant is good for a reason, and that reason is versatility. Perhaps Isamaru could go (Savannah Lions are a complete waste of time in an aggro control build as opposed to an aggro build, imo) but I'm not sure what else to sacrifice. This deck needs to maintain a high threat base (and with SoFI EVERYTHING becomes a threat...) to put enough pressure on. Perhaps a Champion...perhaps the True Believers, although we're already down to 2. They are good in our local meta because they are a must kill critter for burn (yet another one) and provide one of the few ways to deal with combo in a larger meta. Besides, the Champion #4 is already the obvious cut for the 4th Exalted Angel, when it appears.

Pohlo & I will be testing SotF versus Angel Stompy between now & the 8th and posting here. Any other thoughts & information are welcome. I'm very much looking forward to GodZilla's perpsective on our developments as well.

Peter_Rotten
12-16-2004, 07:57 PM
Scrum, I think you have left out important aspect of the Visionary when playing against Survival decks - he must deal damage. He is totally useless under a Fog Frog lock while Kami and Disenchant are obviously not. On average, the Visionary will come out a turn later than Kami, thus giving the SotF player an extra turn to set up.

Most of this is conjecture since I have yet to see the Visionary in action against SotF. Have you seen this issue with him, or do you think that I may be overestimating the his "damage catch?"

scrumdogg
12-16-2004, 08:03 PM
The ability to deal damage is key to the Visionary. However, with Mox he comes out turn 2, often faster than the Frog Lock. Even if the SotF player can get Frog Lock, they are the ones locked down for far too long as the Angel Stompy player develops their board, waiting for the STP or Parallax Wave to force a decision. I would ideally like to see both Disenchants or Aura(s) of Silence in addition to the Visionary. Aura seems like a better option, imo, although I recognize that it is both more expensive, not instant, targetable by answers. However, it has a much more powerful effect against a broader range of decks.

Bryant Cook
12-16-2004, 08:19 PM
Is there a reason noone runs kami of the ancient law over disenchant?

TeenieBopper
12-16-2004, 08:28 PM
Is there a reason noone runs kami of the ancient law over disenchant?
Vedalkan Shackles, Isochron Scepter, and Crucible of Worlds.

niknight
12-16-2004, 08:35 PM
I can attest to how much better Visionary is when compared to Kami/Disenchant.

Kami or Dis are really just a little nuisance to me. They blow up my SotF, I respond by getting a Witness, and I'm offline for 1 turn. After that, I'm back to doing antisocial things, the most important of which is getting 'Core, Rofellos and Quirion in play and just decimating their board.

Visionary, on the other hand, is a card that I must deal w/ immediately. If A. Stompy can back Visionary up with Mom, I'm toast. If not, I had better hope I have a StP or FTK coming really soon.

Scrum has a valid point, Frog lock isn't all it's cracked up to be against this deck. I spend my entire turn recurring/casting the frog while they just build. It will come down to these options:

1. I draw enough land so that I can do something in addition to frog lock each turn.

2. They draw StP, Wave or Geddon, and Frog lock becomes useless. They either get rid of my frog on my turn, or make certain that I can't do it again for a very long time.

Last Sunday, I did get to play Gunnari twice. I scooped one game to his Parallax Wave, and in another I had to take 12 points off of Priest beatings because I had to save my Swords for his Visionary.

Artowis
12-16-2004, 10:35 PM
The problem with Visionary is that he gets wrecked by 3rd turn FTK, even backed by Mom it gets beat by Dupe or Trike. Speed bump sure, but so is Disenchant and that card is actually useful vs. other decks.

NeoMike
12-17-2004, 12:20 AM
My main thing with the Kami is I see alot of people not get a turn 1 bird, and drop a turn 2 SotF. In these cases they are tapped out for the Kami to swing in and take care of it. And that is the end of it till they see an Eternal Witness or another SotF. The first game will more than likely be difficult, but after you board in, games 2 and 3 should be a breeze.
But the main thing is speed, whether it slows them down a turn or not, being able to kil off the survival right after it has been played (turn 2) is alot better than kill it off turn 3 or 4 or 5. Since they have already searched for what they need and will just kill you(or just be a threat) with what they have. But hey, just my opinion... :p

SpencerForHire
12-17-2004, 02:01 AM
If your going to move Kami in, thats a metagame decision, what your replacing with is your own choice, but I think I would like a guaranteed disenchant for an earlier survival and keeping the creature base where it is. If your going to face survival, take out some creatures for Kami, sure it's a hard choice, but if you insist on running Kami, it's a wise choice.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-17-2004, 11:47 AM
If you want sideboard slots dedicated to hating out Survival, Erase/Wipe Clean seem better than Hearth Kami since it cuts the number of Survivals they're running almost in half.

SpencerForHire
12-17-2004, 11:52 AM
I believe we're talking about Kami of Ancient Law not Hearth Kami...
I have had positive testing with maindecked Kami's versus a survival enviroment, they replace 3 creatures I run (simply personal opinion on which to remove) and they have allowed a much easier time against any such deck. They also haven't been that bad as simply a 2/2 for 2 mana despite the lack of Pro Red on them. Thats why I'm only running 3 though, and that IS what mother of runes is for is it not..
Does anyone else have any positive feedback running them or is this all just speculation?

Zilla
12-17-2004, 08:12 PM
I'm very much looking forward to GodZilla's perpsective on our developments as well.
I haven't had much time for testing lately, Scrumm, so the following comments are based essentially on first impressions:

1. We agree that there should unequivocably be 4 StP.

2. 2 True Believers main don't make sense to me. What matchups do they significantly improve?

3. Devout Witness as a one-of seems like a mistake. The deck is built around redundancy. The reduction of many 4-of's to 3-of's in order to accommodate 1 and 2-of's strikes me as counterintuitive.

4. Less than 4 Parallax Wave seems like a mistake to me in nearly any meta, short of a completely combo-dominated meta, which to my understanding doesn't exist.

5. Anything less than 4 Angels is blasphemy.

6. Auriok Champion: I get that you're in an extremely Sligh-heavy meta, but are these really necessary? I don't know that I've ever lost a game to a mono-red deck with Angel Stompy, short of a poor draw on my part and a god draw on theirs. Do you really find yourself having enough trouble racing burn to warrant their inclusion?

7. Soltari Visionary: In a very Survival-heavy meta, I could see this being a decent choice, but the loss of ability to remove artifacts is significant and deserves attention. The Disenchant/Kami/Soltari slot is almost entirely a metagame choice. Further, I concur with Matt's assertion that Visionary is dead under Frog lock. What's the solution there?


Again, these are first impressions, so I'm interested in hearing further reasoning on these issues. Most importantly, I'd like as clear and concise an answer as I can get to the following questions (and they're not rhetorical): What matchups are significantly improved by your changes? What matchups do you feel are compromised by these changes? Essentially, what makes these changes necessary and/or worthwhile?

wizmentor
12-31-2004, 03:43 AM
OK, I've read the whole thread, and if anyone's listening, I have
a few questions.

1) Cataclysm? Seems like it would be a complete beating with parallax wave, and have a similar effect to armageddon without it.

2) Fetchlands? Seems like responding to you own fetch with tithe be good times.

thanks in advance.

SpencerForHire
12-31-2004, 02:02 PM
There isn't really a point to putting a little lockdown combo in the deck because it's just a win more. The only reason Geddon is even boarded is to fix little control matchups where it would be impossible to hit the field with BOTH lock affects.
As far as fetches are concerned the land isn't something to mess with. You already have a little too little land in the deck and thinning it out more then the tithes already do isn't such a good idea as you usually wanna get between 4-6 land in the late game.
Tithe even grabbin gone land is just sweet so there is no reason to further mess with the lands.
Another problem with fetchies is that if you start with a one fetchie hand and you know your opponent is going first on game 1 that might be reason so mulligan because you never know when a random stifle may come and ruin game 1 for you.

Aeneas
01-01-2005, 03:16 PM
Has anyone tested Scour versus Survival? It seems very effective, as this deck can reach 4 mana fairly quickly. Is there any reason this wouldn't be run over other enchantment destruction, seeing as it completly neuters their deck and their witness's. I'll go test it out unless some one has a convincing arguement against it.

Carlos El Salvador
01-02-2005, 01:00 AM
Has anyone tested Scour versus Survival? It seems very effective, as this deck can reach 4 mana fairly quickly. Is there any reason this wouldn't be run over other enchantment destruction, seeing as it completly neuters their deck and their witness's. I'll go test it out unless some one has a convincing arguement against it.
You don't win when you cast that 4 CC spell, like you would when, say, morphing an Angel. I also should bring up the suttle point that the only good way to get rid of Survival fast engouth and consistantly engouth is Erase. That's still too narrow, however.

banky
01-03-2005, 04:40 PM
Soltari Visionary has been my weapon of choice vs Survival as of late for many reasons ...

1. Recurring removal of Survival is key.

2. At a 3cc, lots of time he comes out before any sort lock or loop or recursion can be created. If only he costed 2W, he would be perfect for the deck.

3. Shadow + Mask = My draw engine. He just gives me a another good target for Mask to equip.

4. And last and least-most ... He's still a 2/2 beater over the 2/2 suicide-diver that the Kami is.

Bryant Cook
01-03-2005, 05:24 PM
Your taking the survival issue way out of context. I own both ATS and angel stompy, The deck does not need survival to win. Secondly visionary isn't that great and should not be main decked, not that many decks other than survival use enchantments that ruin you. I don't even think he deserves a SB slot, I tested him in board and wasn't to impressed, by them time he swings turn 3-4 ATS and/or R/G has an answer. all you can do is kill there early manabase, and pray you draw a disenchant effect from sideboard. Why not abolish or aura of silence. both fairly cheap both can be effective turn 2 when survival is weakest.
The deck has other issues than survival based decks now lets move on with a different topic. Discuss the control problem the deck has control in my metagame smashes it horribly, what could be some possible options?

SpencerForHire
01-03-2005, 05:33 PM
If you want to ruin control based decks run vials. Just because everything doesn't cost the same doesn't mean this won't work.

It's been my experience that you shouldn't have to worry much about the control matchup.
Play your equips, play one threat, equip him and beat: when he dies force another threat through, repeat until opponent is dead.

Bryant Cook
01-03-2005, 05:36 PM
Disk ruins your day there, most smart control players run board sweepers.

goldenj
01-03-2005, 06:32 PM
Second sunrise vs. decks with sweepers? It fits the play mode of drop a few threats, sit back. You could even seem to overextend to invite the wreckage on your timetable.

Di
01-03-2005, 06:35 PM
Second sunrise vs. decks with sweepers? It fits the play mode of drop a few threats, sit back. You could even seem to overextend to invite the wreckage on your timetable.

Huh? The only instance this would work is if they cast Wrath of God. Otherwise, their sweeper comes back too, which doesn't do a whole lot of good, unless you swing lethal the following turn.

scrumdogg
01-03-2005, 08:56 PM
I'm very much looking forward to GodZilla's perpsective on our developments as well.
I haven't had much time for testing lately, Scrumm, so the following comments are based essentially on first impressions:

1. We agree that there should unequivocably be 4 StP.

2. 2 True Believers main don't make sense to me. What matchups do they significantly improve?

3. Devout Witness as a one-of seems like a mistake. The deck is built around redundancy. The reduction of many 4-of's to 3-of's in order to accommodate 1 and 2-of's strikes me as counterintuitive.

4. Less than 4 Parallax Wave seems like a mistake to me in nearly any meta, short of a completely combo-dominated meta, which to my understanding doesn't exist.

5. Anything less than 4 Angels is blasphemy.

6. Auriok Champion: I get that you're in an extremely Sligh-heavy meta, but are these really necessary? I don't know that I've ever lost a game to a mono-red deck with Angel Stompy, short of a poor draw on my part and a god draw on theirs. Do you really find yourself having enough trouble racing burn to warrant their inclusion?

7. Soltari Visionary: In a very Survival-heavy meta, I could see this being a decent choice, but the loss of ability to remove artifacts is significant and deserves attention. The Disenchant/Kami/Soltari slot is almost entirely a metagame choice. Further, I concur with Matt's assertion that Visionary is dead under Frog lock. What's the solution there?


Again, these are first impressions, so I'm interested in hearing further reasoning on these issues. Most importantly, I'd like as clear and concise an answer as I can get to the following questions (and they're not rhetorical): What matchups are significantly improved by your changes? What matchups do you feel are compromised by these changes? Essentially, what makes these changes necessary and/or worthwhile?
Sorry about the delay in responding, the holidays are not conducive to long, reasoned responses for those of us outside of the student life :cool: Let me respond to your concerns as well as I can, although pohlo probably has more relevant information than I do.

1) agreed, 4 STP is a necessity in this environment. The problem was that I had 3 extra when I handed Gunnari the deck & he had to find & fit a fourth one.

2) True Believers are specifically for combo, and if I expected heavy Brain Freeze I would be running them as a four of. They also make the red based matchup even better (although that really isn't necessary) :cool: Mom + Believer makes a very difficult scenario for Brain Freeze.

3)Don't look at Devout Witness as a 1 of, since she truly wasn't. She was simply a different form of the whole Disenchant/Abolish/Aura of Silence/Soltari Visionary spectrum of artifact & enchantment control. She has since been cut, although on board, re-usable control that can swing (or block...) is an idea worth considering.

4) I only had 3x Parallax Wave at the time (since remedied) and didn't realize I still had them! Pohlo found them in my binder (good man, somebody should have some clue where my cards are....) and then went & bought the fourth at a later date. Quite frankly, the meta should be shifting more toward control and combo, which would dictate a shift away from the Wave. Look at the skyrocketing popularity of Brain Freeze.dec and Holy/Scepter/Welder type decks. Sometimes I try and idea for the sake of the idea, sometimes, I have a plan (or a vision...), and other times I simply don't have the cards for an exact copy of a deck. In the end we all have to run what we have....

5) See above....we didn't have 4 Angels at that point, since remedied. Agreed, but deck shouldn't absolutely need Angel or it is flawed and vulnerable.

6) Auriok Champion is the nutz draw against a heavy red environment and pretty good against random Black nonsense that crops up (still, probably until the end of time...and that WW has trouble dealing with, imo). Quite frankly, in an aggro heavy meta, how is gaining more life off both your critters and your opponents critters a bad thing? Admittedly, the card has been swapped out for Samurai of the Pale Curtain in the meantime, which has been testing well. But I love the Bikini Chick.....

7)Are we not in a SotF heavy meta? And while not able to hit artifacts, I am much more concerned about enchantments than artifacts in the meta as it stands. They are also part of a package, the other part of which hopefully can hit any problematic artifacts. Furthermore, Frog Lock doesn't bother me excessively. A) the opponent has to be running it - which isn't always the case B) the opponent has to get both elements in place C) the opponent then has to continually use said Frog-lock while I am developing my board. Sooner or later (probably sooner...) I will hit the STP or the Wave which renders the Frog useless for my Big Ass Strike. There are multiple options main deck to deal with Frog and boarding in Crypt makes it even less scary.
Banky is correct that Visionary is a nightmare for SotF when it gets active. They either must attempt Frog Lock or be in the unenviable position of getting back SotF every turn (impractical...). Visionary is a serious tempo advantage against SotF and a continual tempo advantage, not a 1 turn speedbump. Furthermore, like every other creature in the dekc, he has added utility.Everyone does something more than swing & look pretty. In the case of Visionary, even if the enchantment-whacking isn't enough, he has shadow. That makes him evasivy, which is fine normally but finger-licking fucktastic in a deck with SoFI and Mask of Memory. Synergy (and serendipity) should be the goal of every good deck, correct?

Sims
01-04-2005, 11:56 AM
Well, if you attempt to StP or Wave the frog during their endstep, the Frog is either going to be removed or they will (most likely) sac the Frog in response. You the proceed with your turn and are open to attack them, hopefully with some SoFI/Mask equipped beats to draw you into a new Wave or StP to repeat during their next endstep.

If you are worried specifically about Spore Frog enough to board for it, you can board a numerous number of effects to keep the pesky thing from being around:

Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I like this guy, he has no evasion but 2/2 (Bushido 1, so effectively 3/3) for 2 mana isn't a bad body.... especially when he's got an almost-Planar Void attached to him. He's not as strong as your Pro-red beatsticks main, but if there are many a deck in your metagame that provide the need for graveyard hate, he may not be a horrible option to include as he doesn't drop your threat density any.

Funeral Pyre: I wouldn't suggest this unless you are supremely swarmed by SotF in your metagame and they're all packed with Froggie Recursion, because it is way too narrow. But used while Frog is in their yard, I would much rather give them a 1/1 Spirit token that does nothing but ping than let them have a recurring Fog Frog.

Tormod's Crypt: Broad and encompassing Grave hate, but with survival it's fairly easy to play around.

Just some suggestions, although, I still believe Frog Lock is too slow and vulnerable vs. AStompy.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1104858102

xiko
01-04-2005, 12:00 PM
U use them against spore frog on their turn, so u can attack on yours =P

One think i dont get it is the decrees on the side, whats their use?

Whoa.
1. Please develop your posts further.
2. Use the shift key when appropriate
3. You're not on AIM. Please take the time to hit the two extra keys required to properly spell "you."
4. Be clear. What is the "them" that you are talking about?
5. Please carefully read all posts. Zilla explains ALL of his card choices.

Seriously, if you wish to continue to post on this board, you must follow our rules.

Peter_Rotten

scrumdogg
01-04-2005, 01:33 PM
Quite frankly I am not worried about frog lock for a multitude of reasons including, serious tempo loss to the SotF deck/player, ability to alpha strike anyway with Wave or STP, and synergy with Samurai of the Pale Curtain & Tormod's Crypt. Crypt is very good vs. SotF anyway and if you can catch as few as two main elements in the graveyard it is a successful enterprise (since you have invested 1 card and zero mana...). Samurai turns the Frog into a one-shot pony (mixed metaphor...I know...) and while not stopping the SotF engine does remove the abusiveness of Witnessing back elements from the board (including SotF if Visionary becomes active...). Finally, Wave does create a 1 turn window from under frog lock...for 3 turns. Will the Frog be sacced in response? Absolutely, but your Wave remains in play & active for several turns...

Decrees are a great weapon against control or any matchup that will degenerate into a stall. EOT Decree (not counterable & Stifles presence seems to be at an all-time low) for a metric asston of Soldier tokens wins many, many games. It is also one of the best ways to get around Nevy's Disk - still one of the best sweepers in the game, because if the Disk player drops it early, Angel Stompy has time to blow it up. EOT Decree doesn't leave time to drop & use the Disk effectively, thereby essentially neutralizing it.

TeenieBopper
01-04-2005, 01:46 PM
You know, I used to not fear Frog Lock with this deck. Until I faced it. And lost. It's a serious pain in the ass. Rarely are you able to alpha strike in one turn with this deck, so StP isn't all that great. Also, with as much accelleration as R/G has, it's not very hard for them to eot Survival for Zealot, bring back Frog during upkeep, play Zealot, nail Wave, and play Frog. Basically, 8 disenchant effects and Geddon just doesn't cut it against SotF. You really do need some graveyard hate against them. I'm torn between the Samurai, because it beats, and Honor the Fallen, because it'll get everything else if you draw it later. And it'll gain you a little bit a life as a fringe benefit.

rmn
01-07-2005, 04:50 PM
I'm rather surprised that no one has mentioned Orim's Chant. It helps force things against control, is a veritable Time Walk against most decks, and can be a nightmare to play around for combo. It doesn't help much against Survival or other aggro decks, but I think it should at least be given consideration for the sideboard.

SpencerForHire
01-07-2005, 10:35 PM
Due to the style of Angel Stompy, it would probably be Abeyance over Orim's Chant, and as far as that goes, there simply isn't room in the deck, In an all control environment there are just things I would rather run in it's place.

SpikeyMikey
01-09-2005, 07:22 PM
Ok, I'll admit that I'm too lazy to read all 8 pages of this thread, so this issue might have been cleared up earlier, but has anyone considered splashing blue in this deck? Serendib Efreet is a strong choice for this deck, especially since you can't have Angel in your opening hand every game, and Dib's fat ass makes him tough to kill. It would also give you access to Meddling Mage, which was some good last time I checked.

banky
01-09-2005, 08:25 PM
You should REALLY playtest this deck before suggesting a color splash. If you have, you would know about the color problem that sometimes arises about getting WW on the second turn. Adding a second color would only worsen this fact but diminishing your already slim base of white sources.

Sims
01-09-2005, 08:31 PM
Tundras wouldn't be a really huge deal to get U for Meddling Mage/Serendib and is fetchable by Tithe, but it increases your vulnerability to Wasteland, and as such, probably is not the best idea in the world.

SpencerForHire
01-09-2005, 09:36 PM
I did test blue. Then I gave up on it. Splashing blue waters down threats, your draw is actually WEAKER, and you weaken matchups that were strong before the splash.
My blue build ran 4 Brainstorms, 2 FoF, 3 Cunning Wishes, 2 Leaks, and 4 Force of Wills.

Still the deck just doesn't have the same strength when you splash, and not to mention the mana base is weaker.

SpikeyMikey
01-09-2005, 11:49 PM
See, I'm not suggesting blue for control aspects, I'm suggesting blue for more solid threats. You could add the blue without removing any white sources, just 4 tundras, maybe cut 2 plains for fetches, which also have nice synergy with tithe(fetch, tithe in response). You're only looking at like 8 blue spells you'd wanna run, 4 Dibs and 4 Mages.

scrumdogg
01-10-2005, 06:22 AM
The problem arises from the added fragility of the manabase. Currently the only targets for Wasteland are the Ancient Tombs, which can either be held for a one turn effect or dropped for an early burst of speed that the other deck will have trouble overcoming. Wasteland seems to fluctuate in amount of use & if you see little Wasteland in your meta, try the blue. Please let us know how it works, but it seems both dangerous & unnecessary.

Hitman
01-13-2005, 07:43 AM
My blue build ran 4 Brainstorms, 2 FoF, 3 Cunning Wishes, 2 Leaks, and 4 Force of Wills.

Gimbles my man, I wouldn't call that 'splashing' by any means.
:D

I've been following this thread from day 1, and everytime we start talking about some of the deck's weak matchups, I've been asking myself, "Could meddling mage help that?"

Most of the time, the answer is yes.

Bonuses: Mage is a top-tier card that could be extremely useful, and mega-powerful when protected by Mom.

Drawbacks: Yup, wasteland is a beeyatch. As is stifle, if you choose to go that route with the fetchlands (personally I wouldn't).

In addition, you have to take out 4 damn good creature cards to fit them in. I think this is the part that hurts the worst.

I run 2 builds of this deck in apprentice to test against. The first one looks identical to Zilla's list, and the second is -4 plains, +4 tundra, -4 lions, +4 mages.

Some games, you can't even tell the difference between the two.

But there's games where the mage pops up, and if you have a decent idea of what your opp. is running, he pays off in spades.

Besides all that, pitching a meddling mage to your chrome mox (which I have done on occasion, with 2 in my opening hand) makes your mox into a tundra, and you don't have to worry about wasteland (just oxidize, disenchant, shatter .... ).

Anyway, just my 2¢

HM

SpencerForHire
01-13-2005, 11:28 AM
Hehe, I guess mine is more of a mix then a splash. The thing is, I found when running blue that with the fast mana I can produce is was foolish not to abuse FoF so I would at least try finding room for that if you run with the blue splash, it brings up consistency and quality of hand late game.

KrzyMoose
01-13-2005, 12:33 PM
I don't think this build needs blue. It has enough card-drawing through equipment, and adding counters n' what not would only dillute the deck. Brainstorm can't be abused either, because, as far as I know, most AS builds don't run fetches(granted, they do run Tithes, I guess...). From what I've seen, AS has enough answers already to deal with threats, and wants very much to drop an early Angel. It wants to be the aggressor, instead of responding to most threats.

Of course, I don't have much experience with the deck, but I think it's better off as mono-W.

scrumdogg
01-13-2005, 02:05 PM
An experiment with W/u sounds like an interesting idea, although again it damages the manabase. I like the idea of not running fetches, since you really want as much mana as the deck will give you (and the deck runs Tithe, a fetch that can't be Stifled....). Mage under a Chrome Mox could work (although don't you want to be casting the little weasel? Isn't that the point of screwing with the deck? It also benefits the deck against combo, if you know which key piece to call, and has broader application against the rest of the field than my idea of True Believer (although True Believer might still make my sideboard...since multiple options versus combo & burn are good...). Savannah Lions are the obvious drop for any piece that upgrades what the deck needs to do, we dropped them long ago for Samurai of the Pale Curtain.

Gimbles, what you have is actually a completely different deck. Maybe you should start a thread with the decklist, how your version is testing, and explanations of why you chose that version over traditional Angel Stompy? It would be fun to see how many cases of parallel development occur :cool:

Hitman
01-14-2005, 09:30 AM
although don't you want to be casting the little weasel? Isn't that the point of screwing with the deck?

You're absolutely right, Scrumdogg. But the opening hand was looking something like this:

Plains
Chrome Mox
Medd. Mage
Medd. Mage
Soltari
Silver Knight
Parallax Wave

So I had a choice. I could send it back and mulligan down to six, or I could drop a mage to the mox, start dropping threats, and hope for the best.

Since I was fiddling around in apprentice in a 'controlled lab environment', I decided to roll with it and hope for another mana and mask of memory to put on the soltari ... if you get that going, the rest will take care of itself, IMO.

Another small factor to take into consideration is the metagame value, ie, if you drop a tundra (or tithe for one), your opponent is most likely thinking "Blue/White Control" or "Random Ass Deck", when you're really running "Stompy with a twist".

It's only a small advantage, but I'll take every one I can get.

Cheers,
HM

Dark Tiger
01-20-2005, 03:38 PM
First Off, Godzilla, your deck is really nice.
Second, The only two weaknesses Ive found is Solidarity (I decided here just to loose) And Mirror. I think finding something that could give you the edge in a mirror match would be great. Null Rod could be removed (in my opinon) since the only two decks its stops is Ravager and Belcher. And I dont see why you have a problem with these to board in in the first place. (Ravager seems like an almost auto win and belcher can be circumvented with Removal/TB) Anyway, to the point, whats the purpose of Null Rod and what can you do against mirror match? Or am I just a complete scrub who should never play Magic...

NeoMike
01-24-2005, 11:03 PM
The only thing I could truely see sideboarding for the mirror would be Sword of Light and Shadow. But Angel Stompy is so scarse that it isnt needed for the board. Other cards that come to mind are, Eight and a Half Tails, Reciprocate, and Wing Shards. But other than that, it is just like every other aggro mirror, you race for the win.

troopatroop
01-25-2005, 07:26 PM
For the mirror I've put wrath in my sideboard. If you hold back your serious threats and dont overextend you can blindside your opponent with something completely unnexpected, then swing the game in your favor. It makes you play a bit differently, but not bad at all. Instead of playing your creatures first you play your equipment. It really works quite well, but it all comes down to wheather or not you see enough aggro in your meta.

BoTS
01-25-2005, 07:43 PM
Why not just up the Parallax Wave count, or run even run Topple so you can actually put early/mid-game pressure on while still being able to deal with their threats? Wrath seems fine and all, but it essentially causes you to change the entire focus of the deck in the mirror.

finley
01-25-2005, 08:23 PM
Wouldn't Radiant's Judgment be a better selection then that of Topple? I mean the Judgement basically does the same thing, and you can cycle it if its dead. Another reason Radiant's Judgment might possibly be a better choice is because your able to target what creature you want to kill.

BoTS
01-25-2005, 09:38 PM
Wouldn't Radiant's Judgment be a better selection then that of Topple? I mean the Judgement basically does the same thing, and you can cycle it if its dead. Another reason Radiant's Judgment might possibly be a better choice is because your able to target what creature you want to kill.
The reason why I suggested Topple is because you won't always be wanting to destroy an Exalted Angel, but rather an opposing Soltari Priest, Silver Knight, or other low-power creature, clearing the path for your threats and safely being able to put pressure on the opponent.

finley
01-25-2005, 10:20 PM
Well Radiant's Judgment might be the better suggestion simply because usually a Sword of Fire and Ice will power up the creature enough the the Judgment can kill it, and as I stated before, you can always cycle it if its not useful. Not to mention, Instants > Sorceries, at least when it comes to killing one creature.

NeoMike
01-25-2005, 11:35 PM
Well Radiant's Judgment might be the better suggestion simply because usually a Sword of Fire and Ice will power up the creature enough the the Judgment can kill it, and as I stated before, you can always cycle it if its not useful. Not to mention, Instants > Sorceries, at least when it comes to killing one creature.
Guys this shouldnt be an arguement. Yall are forgetting 2 cards that are extremely better than both of those.
1. Reciprocate - Yes a little risky, but if you play test it you will see how useful it truely is.
2. Reprisal - 1W - Instant - Destroy taget creature(angel) with power 4 or greater. It can't be regenerated this turn.

But not saying play these cards, although Reciprocate is not neerly as bad as it looks... Because all it comes down too is the true aggro mirror race. Wich I suggest Wing Shards, especially since you don't have to play around your own Wrath. Again though, just my opinion.

Hitman
01-26-2005, 07:32 AM
I'd definitely roll with Wing Shards as a SB option.

As for 'racing to the finish'; I highly disagree. You'll have a hard time being able to do that vs. most solid aggro decks unless you were fortunate enough to get a morphed angel rolling, or a soltari with equipment.

As a reminder, I point you to Zilla's own description of the deck: 'Mono-white Aggro Control'-- You sacrifice some of the 'aggro' to add in the 'control'.

This is generally a good thing. The wave, while a bit expensive and never one of my favorite cards, seems to have found a home here. It buys you just a few extra turns of clearing problematic blockers for your (mostly) smaller critters to finish the job.

Then of course, we have the swords. Nothing needed to be said about that.

Bring in 3 WS and an extra wave from the SB, and you have 15 things, or 1/4 of your deck, that an aggro deck really does not want to see: Shards, swords, waves, and Angels.

The Storm ability on the shards IMO makes it pure gold. Drop a swords then a shards, and you get a 3-for-2 advantage. Even greater if your opp. cast a spell before attacking.

The life-gain off the swords isn't going to hurt you too badly most of the time, as you generally would sword his smallest creature (the first one he would sac to the shards), and force him to drop 2 of the bigger ones.

Looking at some of the other options, they all come up sub-par.

Reciprocate is OK, but you have to let the creature damage you first. How does that help you win the race?

Topple is horrible IMO. A), it's a sorcery. B) You'd have to be more selective about how you use it. IE, no equipping the SoFI on an exalted angel, which is generally a good idea.

Exile- Useful vs. Red or Green aggro, but total ass in the mirror match.

Repentance- Interesting, but it's a sorcery and it won't kill an Ex. angel.

WoG- Never in a month of Sundays. With this deck you want to quickly drop numerous threats, not hold back extras in your hand in case you have to blow it all up. I might consider cataclysm, which would let you keep a critter, enchantment, artifact, and land, but that also seems far too situational.

Reprisal/Radiant's Judgement- I'd actually consider these, but I still think the shards are superior.

This deck only runs 4 creatures that are naturally bigger than 2/2. Is it inconceivable to think that if you had no angel out, your opp. could apply a good amount of pressure simply by attacking with a few 3/3's? How would you deal with an attacking Troll Ascetic?

Everything that can be targeted, can be dealt with by using swords and waves. Why not cover your bases and have an extra option for things that cannot be targeted?

As always, just my 2¢

HM

finley
01-26-2005, 12:59 PM
In all honesty, I don't see why Wing Shards is such a strong choice in a deck like this. It costs double white and another, plus your opponent chooses what creature they would like to die. In a deck with no power to really abuse the ability of Storm, which makes Wing Shards a solid card, I can't conceive why you would choose it over Radiant's Judgment or Reprisal. Further more, Wing Shards only forces your opponent to sacrifice attacking creatures. This seems like a huge disadvantage, especially because when you want to go on the offensive, you are unable because they have a nice fat Exalted Angel there for blocks while you are holding a dead card in Wing Shards in you hand.

Now on the issue of which is better the Judgment or Reprisal, Judgment is never a dead card, because of its ability to cycle. Reprisal on the other hand has the same effect but doesn't cycle. Now I do realize this is an aggro deck and Reprisal is cheaper then the Judgment but do you really expect that one mana difference to be a huge deal?

midnightAce
01-26-2005, 05:22 PM
In a mirror match, you can trade blows with Exalted all day long, but it doesn't accomplish anything. The real damage factor does indeed come from Priest, especially a Priest with a SoFI.

All the previously mentioned removals, with exception of Wind Shard and WoG, targets. That's good, since it offers the choice of selectively removing the most problematic creatures first. It's also really really bad. First turn, Mother of Ruins wrecks house on those target removals.

Wind Shard is actually better than you think.
a) It has synergy when the opponent dropped an equipment and start to smash face.
b) It has synegy when you disenchant his Wave/SoFI/MoM during combat.
c) It has synegy when you StP his threats during combat.

On a side note, Mother really shines in games like these. Granting Priest with SoFI to go right through every turn is a 4 turn clock, not to mention the added card advantage.

pohlo
01-31-2005, 01:43 PM
Wind Shard is actually better than you think.
a) It has synergy when the opponent dropped an equipment and start to smash face.
b) It has synegy when you disenchant his Wave/SoFI/MoM during combat.
c) It has synegy when you StP his threats during combat.


I am going to have to disagree with several of the statements that you have made regarding Wing Shards. First I will tell you that I agree that it can be very handy when a SoFI has been dropped and your opponent starts beating you about the head. However to accomplish either b or c on your list you will have to leave at least 4-5 mana untapped with at least three of that being white. During this time I would much rather drop more threats in an attempt to overwhelm my opponent. This can happen by being able to get a guy through that has a mask equipped thanks to mom or a well placed StP. Yet with what you are suggesting is that I wait for him to drop his threats which will increase the storm count but they are not going to be attacking this turn since they don't have haste. I just do not agree with the idea of Wing Shards in this deck, same thing with WoG which is counter intuitive.

midnightAce
02-01-2005, 11:11 PM
Sorry if it seems that I'm boasting Wind Shard out of proportion. Wind Shard is discussed here almost entirely as an extreme narrow SB option against mirror matchs. The main point of my post was to bring to people's attention about spot removal and MoR's ability, and how it might be disadvantageous to use conditional spot remover. (eg, Radiant's Judgement)

As the deck get more popular and well known, the chance of playing against mirror match increases. I don't believe anybody has found any satisfactory SB slots for that. I completely agree that a deck as aggresive as this should be dropping threats continuesly instead of going on reactive mode. Personally, I believe drop as many creatrures as possible and drop a Wave for a massive attack is the best way to win. :p (Of course, hoping they don't have a Disenchant)

disrupted2
02-02-2005, 09:46 PM
Wing Shards is too narrow for an allready tight sideboard in a varied meta.

xiko
02-07-2005, 10:31 PM
Hmmm, I think tariff is a good choice for mirror. What do you think?

If you're going to post an opinion, please take the time to explain your reasoning. -Zilla

finley
02-07-2005, 10:34 PM
Tariff doesn't seem to good. Its a Sorcery AND it doesn't really do anything to the shadow equiped beaters unless your opponent is tapped out.

Peter_Rotten
02-17-2005, 09:17 PM
This deck is now considered a DTB.

Ray D 3
02-21-2005, 12:33 PM
As far as the mirror, and almost all aggro, goes, I believe Pulse of the Fields would be amazing as a sideboard slot.

I am aware it forces you into a reactive instead of proactive mode of play, and that this deck does not tend to make enough mana to truly abuse it as other decks could, but it does give you the ability to drop a few critters, let them swing over and over again in futility, and ride a few impervious threats the whole way, or just stall untill the Angel decides to make her grand entrance. Just some food for thought.

Besides, Pulse of the Feilds has one of the best flavor texts in the game :p

Elvenwish
02-22-2005, 01:22 PM
I have been playing Angel Stompy for about the past three months, testing regularly. Last weekend was the first tournament I took it to, having been playing Solidarity prior. It wasn't the ghreatest of nights, coming in fifth, but teh deck has game against all but one deck in the environment. After learning the environment at the store, I have been working on a sideboard. The metagame looks something like this:

16-20 players

Deck types:

Solidarity
R/G Survival
Goblins w/Vial
MBC
Mono Red Burn
Scepter Chant
Random Aggro


Of those decks, Solidarity has given me the greatest fits and I have been unable to do anything about it. In an attempt to make most of my matchups better, I have come up with the following board:

True Believer X 4
Rule of Law X 3
CoP Red X 3
Disenchant X 1
Seal of Cleansing X 1
??? X 3

True Believer is just a road block for Solidarity, as is Rule of Law. Together, both have allowed me a couple wins in testing, but not too many. True Believer has also helped against the Mono Red deck. It is fast, has no creatures, and can sometimes be hard to race him. True Believer plus CoP seals the deal against him. The Mono red Goblins deck has not been a problem but CoP Red helps to make it even better. I did not get to play the guy playing MBC last week but I can see that deck, with early Hymns and Duresses being a pain. True Believer works wonders against it as most of his creature removal and discard are nullified by it. I lost to my own R/G Survival last week due mainly to having to paris down to four twice and lost 2-1 to my own Solidarity deck. Any suggestions? This sideboard is just a rough draft of what I came up with during a 6 hour meeting yesterday. Your help would be apreciated.

disrupted2
02-23-2005, 07:53 PM
The sideboard plans for this deck seem to be crucial to its improvement. It is hard to get everything you want for a varied meta. Do you beat Solidarity, ATS, Gobbo/RDW, or is there some way to build versatility into the side?


Combo of any type seems to be a problem. Rule of law seems to be the best answer. True Believer is WW and while Rule of Law cannot pick up SoFI it seems to be much easier for me to cast reliably on turn 2.

I have to play with Null Rod x3-x4 in my side as artifact combo is prevelant in my metagame.

The ATS matchup is very challenging but not unwinnable.

Mono black has a really tough time dealing with equipment. Which can easily race the discard in card advantage. I do not feel Mono black is a bad matchup.

Aegis of Honor or Cop Red are the best answers to RDW style decks. Fork has sped up the kill turn of these decks by a full turn in my experience, and while it is not the best deck it is still there.

I agree goblins is not a really bad matchup but Cop Red is such a kick in the junk.

I need Main 4x Seal of Cleansing and 1x Main Disenchant to handle Survival, Disc, and Equipment [SoFI mainly]

Decree of Justice is so good VS Landstill and Control and can come in for equipment when you need to side in the Null Rods.

So

3x Rule of law
3x Null Rod
3x Decree of Justice
3x Cop Red/3x Aegis of honor [dependent on your meta]
3x Armageddon [my meta is so random I maindeck the Armageddons.]

This is one possible sideboard.

I know from the reading I have done in this forum and my playtest/tournament play that Enlightened Tutor is NFG in the main. But could it be used in the side to improve or really to diversify the versatility of the Artifact/Enchantments used specifically for hosers of a deck type?

Has anyone tried E.T. in the side? A lone copy of Humility might be pretty fat 'VS' ATS. Is a toolbox side with E.T. too much to hope for? If anyone has tried I would love to hear your results.

rleidle
02-28-2005, 07:04 PM
What about mox diamond over chrome mox? You could maybe cut a few spells and run maybe 2 extra land. It seems to me that the obvious synergy with tithe (discard a land to mox diamond, then go get more land) would make it worthwhile.

scrumdogg
02-28-2005, 07:20 PM
The Woosta version of the deck does run 2x more Plains, but you still lack the number of lands to reliably support Mox Diamond. You have a deck full of good cards, but you can almost always justify imprinting one of them onto Chrome Mox as different matchups alter the worth of each card (except for Angel...that is always good.....). Chrome Mox does require you to be familiar enough with the deck to know what you need in each particular matchup (or at least have an educated guess). Unless your opponent has a complete rogue build that also happens to be effective....you should be able to imprint the right card.

Drake33535
03-03-2005, 05:06 PM
I've been playing this deck for about 5 months and IMO warmth is alot better than COP:Red and Aegis against mono red sleigh. Both the COP and the Aegis require you keep mana untapped in order to use the effect and thus preventing you from dropping the fast beats. Warmth on the other hand is a static effect that triggers every time your opponent casts a red spell. I guess it depends on your Meta.

Also has anybody noticed that this deck has a problem against a resolved CoTV for 2. Maybe its just me but all of the MBC in my area MD CoTV and Trinisphere and either of these turn 2 is most of the time a total buzz kill. Any tips are appreciated.

lynxcat
03-03-2005, 09:10 PM
In my experience, running Abolish in the main instead of Disenchant is the best way around Chalice (or just try to go into Turbo Angel mode). Abolish has also helped me out many times against Survival decks when you need to nuke a turn 2 SOTF but also need to put threats on the board. If your meta is full of ATS and Pox/MBC I would run Abolish maindeck.

Drake33535
03-03-2005, 10:32 PM
Yeah I can see how that would be better.

New aspect. Cursed Scroll main. I think it could really help A. Stompy in the mirror, against many survival variants, and even against welder(to which swords is the only answer). I've not had time to test it, but anybody that has please share.

Bongo
03-13-2005, 03:28 AM
I really want to up the mana-sources from 22 to 24.

Now my question is: Which two cards should I cut?

-Bongo

Lazer_Moses
03-13-2005, 10:56 AM
What about Sphere of Law over COP:Red and Aegis?

Sure, it cost 3W, but with chrome mox's, Ancient Tombs, and Tithe's, getting that mana on 3rd (or even 2nd) turn is no problem.

I have been running this deck for about 3-4 weeks, and my meta has quite a few Goblin/Sligh/RDW out there. Once I play a Sphere, they often scoop. With Pro Red dudes, and now all red thingies doing 2 less to me, it looks pretty grim for the red player.

Just a thought.

scrumdogg
03-13-2005, 07:18 PM
In a perfect world, Sphere of Law is much better than either Aegis of Honor or COP:Red. Unfortunately, to cast the Sphere requires you to have non-basic land or a Chrome Mox in play, probably both if you want it early. Red has access to both LD (Wasteland, Stone Rain, Tangle Wire, etc...) and artifact kill. Therefore, the games in which you could get the Sphere down early (a necessity against the speed of red) are games in which you were already undisrupted (and therefore probably winning). Aegis & COP both come down much quicker in reality against Red decks. You also have decent game against red critters, the main difficulty comes from the burn aspects of their decks - in which role both Aegis & COP are just about as good (if not better in the case of Aegis) as Sphere.

Good idea and have fun with the deck.

lyle h
03-13-2005, 10:06 PM
Yeah I can see how that would be better.

New aspect. Cursed Scroll main. I think it could really help A. Stompy in the mirror, against many survival variants, and even against welder(to which swords is the only answer). I've not had time to test it, but anybody that has please share.
I don't think that will work at all. I have not been running this deck for very long but it is a rare game when I would have the spare mana to pump three into a cursed scroll. The deck pulls to many new resources with the sword and mask run in it. Plus a main way of paying for the scroll would be through a tomb and that does not make very good use of resources. Tap a mox and a tomb to do two damage to yourself, cost yourself a turn of playing spells, take the chance of not hitting the card you named in your hand, then do two damage to a creature you could have used an STP on or dealt with her by using the damage generated by the SOF&I or bought a few turns with the parallax wave and taken care of another creature while you seal the win. It does not make any sense at all to wash the deck down to include something it can not use effectively in any aspect.

Drake33535
03-28-2005, 02:44 PM
I have tested the scroll and found it inferior. It was an after thought when I was building a new deck. It sounded good on paper but didn't pan out in the real world.

Is it just me or is the A. Stompy deck hitting a decline in its effectiveness. In the past month or so I have seen A. Stompy being repeatedly beaten by decks that it originally smashed. Maybe it is just me and the scrubs in my meta.

Zirilian
03-31-2005, 03:28 AM
Is a toolbox Sb with E.T. a possibillity?

My SB is like this :
1x Defense Grid
1x Null Rod
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
1x Parallax Wave
1x Rule of Law
1x Seal of Cleansing
4x Enlightened Tutor
3x Decree of Justice
1x aegis of honor

scrumdogg
03-31-2005, 02:03 PM
An Enlightened Tutor sideboard is a definite possibility. Unfortunately, it increases the number of cards you must sideboard in (and more importantly, out...). Also, while it increases the range of your sideboard options it decreases their redundancy. My point on that is that if someone answers your sideboard silver bullet (counter or destroy), you have no way to get it back and no back up left in the deck. Unless you have overlapping silver bullets or redundant copies (which begs the question 'why use E. Tutor?') you are just as vulnerable as you would have been Game 1.

If you can remove enough cards to include Enlightened Tutor and a series of overlapping silver bullet artifacts & enchantments, then by all means try to do so. But realize that you can neither protect them nor recur them....

KrzyMoose
03-31-2005, 03:02 PM
Has anyone tried running Aether Vial yet? People in my area have been running it, and, from what I can see, it helps. A lot. I'm not big on the Enlightened Toolbox sideboard, either. Like Scrumdogg said, it might give you access to more options, but it cuts down a lot on redundancy and effectiveness. Obviously, your opponent will already know the card you're grabbing, and so he can be prepared for it. And when he neutralizes it, it's worthless, and you don't have any backup.

Zirilian
03-31-2005, 04:03 PM
An Enlightened Tutor sideboard is a definite possibility. Unfortunately, it increases the number of cards you must sideboard in (and more importantly, out...). Also, while it increases the range of your sideboard options it decreases their redundancy. My point on that is that if someone answers your sideboard silver bullet (counter or destroy), you have no way to get it back and no back up left in the deck. Unless you have overlapping silver bullets or redundant copies (which begs the question 'why use E. Tutor?') you are just as vulnerable as you would have been Game 1.

If you can remove enough cards to include Enlightened Tutor and a series of overlapping silver bullet artifacts & enchantments, then by all means try to do so. But realize that you can neither protect them nor recur them....

You're right,since 99% of the decks have enchantment removal,it's probably useless.

However,I do like the idea of using vials,since they can help on the manascrew-ing caused by tombs,making it possible to keep 1 tomb as only land-hands.
But,what card should we cut to make room for 4?

For your convenience,this is the current list:

Angel Stompy
12 Plains
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Tithe
4 Mother of Runes
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
3 Mask of Memory
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Parallax Wave

Any comments on my list would also be appreciated :).

Also,since my E.T. sideboard has been pointed out to be quite bad,what would you play in an unknown field?
I was thinking about something like this:
3x Null Rod
3x Circle of Protection:Red
3x Rule of Law
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Disenchant
3x Decree of Justice

Happy Gilmore
03-31-2005, 05:20 PM
Aether vial is not a fix for a shitty mana base. A deck like AS is based on speed and vial is not what you call, the fast and the furious. A vial does nothing on its own (so does your equipment, but that is a different story).

The real issue is that you havn't stated wheither or not vial is designed for the control matchup or just for mana. Either way Vial is just wrong, atleast in the MD, you could however find some spots in the sb. In your sb, I would replace the Decree's. Oh and BTW, Where are the geddons?

scrumdogg
03-31-2005, 06:11 PM
Aether vial is not a fix for a shitty mana base. A deck like AS is based on speed and vial is not what you call, the fast and the furious. A vial does nothing on its own (so does your equipment, but that is a different story).

The real issue is that you havn't stated wheither or not vial is designed for the control matchup or just for mana. Either way Vial is just wrong, atleast in the MD, you could however find some spots in the sb. In your sb, I would replace the Decree's. Oh and BTW, Where are the geddons?
So many areas of disagreement, so little time. Aether Vial is a great fix for a shaky mana base, although the tempo loss in Angel Stompy is a bigger concern. However, more modern versions of the deck are a bit slower and more controlling but much more powerful. Isamaru & Savannah Lions have been replaced by the immensely superior Samurai of the Pale Curtain (3-4 of depending upon meta) and 1-2 more Plains. True Believer continues to be a worthwhile investment in combo/targetting heavy environments (especially in conjunction with Mom). Relying simply on speed in any environment other than heavy aggro (aggro, not aggro-control...) is foolhardy. Therefore, Aether Vial could certainly fit into Angel Stompy - if cards can be found to be pulled, which is difficult to do.

The issue isn't whether it addresses control or mana (who cares, quite frankly, since it addresses both concerns...) but rather does it address any of the decks significant weak spots. Landstill continues to be problematic and removal of A) critters or B) removal seems unlikely to help. If Landstill had no way to deal with the Vial as a permanent, it would make an awesome addition. Sadly, that is not the case. Ironically, Decrees are quite good in the sideboard against control in general and Landstill in particular. Removing them would be stupid at best.

The only point in which we are agrreement is the necessity of Armageddon in the sideboard. Control hates it with a passion, especially if Samurai is on the table. The decks best chance against Landstill is to present a quick threat or 3 and Geddon the world away. Your sideboard, as always, addresses concerns you have against certain decks, cards, or archetypes. Right now, what does the deck fear other than Landstill & very fast combo? Samurai already gives you a leg up on SotF & combined with Crypt & Geddon makes the matchup(s) even at worst (usually better). Combo falls into 2 categories - ridiculous amounts of damage to the face or storm. Both are stopped by untargetability (True Believer, Ivory Mask, Gilded Light, etc). Cards like Orims Chant & Abeyance also work quite well, with Chant having better secondary effects versus aggro & Abeyance being better against all combo & control. Hitting six mana to Abeyance then Geddon takes time but puts you in a good position. What have you encountered as difficulties when playing the deck? COP Red & red based hosers seem so unnecessary given the anti-red nature of the main deck & the life gain off the Angel. In a meta full of red, obviously it doesn't hurt to include the hosers - what are you facing? Are we discussing a particular meta or a general what-would-I-bring-to-a-large-tournament sideboard?

KrzyMoose
03-31-2005, 06:27 PM
I know people are going to disagree with this, but I'd cut Sword of Fire and Ice for Aether Vial. As far as the Landstill match goes, they're not unlikely to counter the Sword. So, I'd rather spend one mana to draw out a counter, rather than three. And, if they don't counter the vial, then free creatures. My thing about Sword is that it costs, roughly, five mana. I almost think that Sword is almost a 'win more' type of thing. Either cut the Sword, or cut Mask of Memory. Though, I like the Mask, as drawing two cards is tech. Unfortunatly, the list is really tight, but those are the only things that really stick out as being able to be cut.

As far as the SB goes, 'Geddon should definitely be considered, but it isn't the 'end all' solution against Landstill. Landstill can recover pretty quickly from a 'Geddon. While it does help a lot, it needs to be carefully played to be as effective as it can be.

Now, if you're still worried about U/r's removal, perhaps consider Absolute Law? At only 1W, it's cheap and effective, leaving you with only the counters to deal with. I'm not too sure on a solution for U/w, but it seems that they really only have WoG and StP. As Scrumdogg suggested, Abeyance or Chant is useful against combo.

And speaking of Landstill, we should probably discuss some other decks in the format, because, you know, Landstill isn't the only thing out there.

What about ATS, Survival-Advantage, or WelderSurvival? Obviously Disenchants/Seals help, but they can win without Survival. And believe me, Crypt and other 'yard hate doesn't win the game for you either.

*edit* I don't really play the deck, but my friend does, and here's the SB he uses:

1 Disenchant
4 Null Rod
4 True Believer
3 Absolute Law
3 Armeggedon

He also dropped SoFI a long time ago, in favor of Whipcorder, which seems to have worked out well.

Zirilian
04-01-2005, 03:24 AM
In a meta full of red, obviously it doesn't hurt to include the hosers - what are you facing? Are we discussing a particular meta or a general what-would-I-bring-to-a-large-tournament sideboard?


I need a what-would-I-bring-to-a-large-tournament sideboard,since it'll be my first time there,so any idea's would be greatly appreciated.



So many areas of disagreement, so little time. Aether Vial is a great fix for a shaky mana base, although the tempo loss in Angel Stompy is a bigger concern. However, more modern versions of the deck are a bit slower and more controlling but much more powerful. Isamaru & Savannah Lions have been replaced by the immensely superior Samurai of the Pale Curtain (3-4 of depending upon meta) and 1-2 more Plains. True Believer continues to be a worthwhile investment in combo/targetting heavy environments (especially in conjunction with Mom). Relying simply on speed in any environment other than heavy aggro (aggro, not aggro-control...) is foolhardy. Therefore, Aether Vial could certainly fit into Angel Stompy - if cards can be found to be pulled, which is difficult to do.



Wouldn't removing 5 1-drops for 3/4 2-drops wreck your mana-curve?
Aren't there any other cards we could cut in favor of the samurai,or maybe Side him?

Also,aether vial would maybe be good in the side,because he really shines vs control :).

Elvenwish
04-01-2005, 09:24 AM
First, Angel Stompy doesn't have that bad a matchup against control to consider using Aether Vial to counteract the control elements of the decks. Landstill is perhaps the most bothersome control deck I have played against by far but it is winnable. Not favorable but winnable.

As for teh speed issue, Angel Stompy is an aggro-control deck. Yes, it can be amazingly fast dropping turn 2 Angels but it isn't an all out speed deck in line with that of Goblins. Aether Vial isn't going to increase the speed of the deck enough to warrant losing the necessary cards to run a full set, as has been said before.

Being aggro-control, I have also found that running Aether Vial cause me to more than often over-extend. Ok, so the Vial doesn't cause me to over extend, but I think you know what I am talking about. Vial Goblins uses teh vial to put out a canstant stream of critters. They run 10+ more critters than we do so over extending, per say, isn't a concern for the most part as they have the ability to "re-fuel" very easily. Angel Stompy, on teh other hand, isn't looking to swarm the opponent but rather to put down a threat that is almost impossible to deal with, supply a constant source of damage as well as card advantage. I don't see how dropping four of anything in a water-tight deck for vial is going to improve any match-up.

Also, I am not sure if the idea of dropping SoFI is smart decision. In the instance discussed above, the SoFI is dropped for Vials. By doing this I firmly beleive you are moving away from what Angel Stompy does well, contolling the board while supplying massive card advantage. SoFI is a card advantage, and board control monster. The card isn't win more. The card allows games to be won that were almost out of the question. Two extra damage, two ping damage, and an extra card. Compared to Vial, I don't see how the sacrifice of SoFI makes any sense.

As for replacing it with Whipcorder, I must make teh same observations. While I understand that Whipcorder can be a great diruption to the opponent, I am afraid I can not see how it is more bothersome to the opponent than SoFI.

What does Angel Stompy do well:

Card Advantage
Creature Evasion
Creature Kill
Board Control

That is how Angel Stompy wins its matches. It doesn't race the opponent that often. How can one justify removing a card that helps in all four categories.

Scrumdogg: Could you please give me the reasons behind Samuri of the Pale Curtain? I understand the "graveyard hate" aspect but does it justify the warping of the mana curve that is inherent with this change?

scrumdogg
04-01-2005, 10:06 AM
Interesting (and probably correct) analysis of Aether Vial, although it does no harm to experiment with an idea (other than to some poor schmoe's Eternal rating) :cool: Angel Stompy does have difficulty with boardsweeping based control, specifically Landstill, precisely because the strong points of Angel Stompy are specifically nullified by the plan of the opposing deck.

Samurai is strictly superior in every regard to Savannah Lions & even Isamaru. The 2 power in both power and toughness is augmented by Bushido. It is very difficult to stop deal with Samurai in early combat, often requiring another element - pump, removal, additional creatures, whatever - which is where Mom comes to the rescue (or you simply make a favorable 2-1 trade...). With the Lion Kings, Mom is always holding their hands crossing the street because they die to anything stronger than a sneeze.... If this were the entirety of the argument, Samurai would still be superior. His effect on board control, however, is huge. SotF decks may not absolutely have to have graveyard advantage to win, other than Welder Survival, but they crave it, they wants it, they must have it, preciousssssss. What would you like to Witness back? The only safe elements are those discarded to Survival and you don't really want Squee, Anger, Genesis back with a Witness. Disenchant becomes STP for artifacts and enchantments, chump blocking becomes permanently fatal. Spore Frog? Yes. Spore Frog lock? Hell no! And it gets progressively worse when you add in cards like Armageddon and Tormod's Crypt after boarding. Landstill inherently relies on it's ability to recur small but efficient permanents. Landstill becomes a much easier matchup when you double your ability to screw with their basic path to victory by running Samurai, Disenchant, STP AND Crypt + Geddon after boarding. Is Eternal Dragon & Decree still problematic? They can be, but they only get the Dragon back once if you play it right.

Now, since Landstill & SotF based decks are arguably some of the best in the format at the moment, Samurai becomes even better. Against many other decks he is simply a more efficient beater (or defender) than the Lion Kings ever thought of being. In some matchups, Solidarity, he can easily be sideboarded out for relevant cards the same way in which Isamaru & Pumbaa would be. Yet even against a number of combo decks, his ability shines. Salvagers? Please try to go off... Belcher? Did I stop you the first time? Good, you're done. Or if you try to rely on the Welder plan you are in a world of hurt. Dancing Ghoul? So sorry.

The last point is simply a reinforcement of the Samurai's superiority in combat situations. Which would you rather have equipped with a Mask of Card Draw or a Sword of Fire & Ice? The 2/1 (2/2 Isamaru) Mask critter or the 2/2 Bushido remove your chumpblocker from the game Mask critter? The 4/3 (4/4 Isamaru) with the Broken Abilities if I Do Combat Damage or the 4/4 Bushido remove your chumpblocker from the game with the Broken Abilities if I Do Combat Damage?

For 1 mana more....wait, isn't that why we run Chrome Mox & Tithe? I believe it may be.....

KrzyMoose
04-01-2005, 10:48 AM
Elvenwish: Interesting points. Though, I think you should at least test some of the changes for the sake of change/trying something new. Now, I don't really play this deck(only against it), I'm just reporting the current 'trends' around my area. I think it works pretty well, but those are just from my observations.

As for the SotPC, he doesn't really 'warp' the curve...he only costs WW, the same as half the other creatures in the deck. Though, I don't think he's as effective as Scrumdogg thinks against Survival. Being a WelderSurvival player myself, the thing I fear most is mainly StP for my Welder. I can work around 'yard hate, but once my Welders are gone, I have, really, only one option, which is hard casting threats. But these can be dealt with piece-by-piece.

Zirilian
04-01-2005, 10:50 AM
K,you convinced me.
I'm going to play the samurai too.

Angel Stompy
12 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Tithe
4 Mother of Runes
4 Samurai of the pale curtain
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
3 Mask of Memory
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Parallax Wave


For a sideboard,what would you play if you're going against an unknown field in a big tourney?
Maybe some sb 1CC creatures,in cas we need more speed.

Elvenwish
04-01-2005, 02:35 PM
KrzyMoose: Trust me, I have tested this deck to a great extent and have tried your changes some time ago. (Decemeber I believe). We will have to agree to disagree. SoFI contributes too much.

Scrumdogg: I will be testing Angel Stompy with four SotPC this evening in preperation for a tournament tomorrow evening. I apreciate your comments on the topic and, as said, am checking into them. My one question is do you really have that much of an issue with Survival based decks? Perhaps it is the people I am playing but I have had little trouble with them; ATS, R/G, or Welder. Game two/three prooves to be a cake walk as I have little problem keeping survival off the table during the first few turns, when it's presence prooves to be most devestating. Again, thanks for your reasoning. It is greatly apreciated. Do you mind posting a list or perhaps PM'ing yours? I would like to compare and see where you are going with yours.

Happy Gilmore
04-01-2005, 05:11 PM
The moment this deck hit the DBT it became Jank Cards are Us in this thread. What I said about Aether Vial was correct, IT ISNT A FIX FOR A SHITTY MANA BASE. And from the following posts it is clear to me you guys think so too. Samurai of the Pale Curtain, yes its awesome against Landstill, but taking out your efficient one drops is a huge mistake. When you combine this with the fact that you no longer have a draw engine in the form of SoFI, the over-all power and consistency of the deck drops substancially. If you are going to run Vial the least you could do is run it in the right slots. Leave the one drops in, because while the vial is gaining counters you are going to need to keep up the preasure.

From the list on the front Page:
-1 savannah Lions
-2 Wave( I Personally don't like these anyway, I think they should be shinning shoals)
-1 SoFI

+4 Vial

Samuai Is good, thats not the problem, its just that he isnt better than the other two drops against the majority of the field. Vs. Landstill is the only matchup I would rather have him over Knight or Priest. Honestly I would make a couple slots in the SB for him.

And just to beat this in the ground, Vial is hated out by atleast 3-5 cards in every sideboard known to man. And by increasing the artifact count, the opponent is going to be bringing in even more hate than he normally would. Just think about it. :blues:

Elvenwish
04-01-2005, 11:32 PM
Happy: I agree totally with your comments concerning Aether Vial. My point exactly. I do have one question though, why Shining Shoal? I understand that it is free damage redirection no matter the source dealing the damage. But how much damage do you really expect to be redirecting? Late game, yes, you can redirect quite a bit but early, when playing the spell for free you will redirect no more than two damage unless you dicard Exalted, something I am not sure I would be comfortable doing. What is your reasoning behind this? What do you not like about Parallax Wave? Is it your meta or am I missing something?

scrumdogg
04-01-2005, 11:48 PM
Yet once again....Vial is an idea being tested by one individual, it is not a consensus move by any stretch of the imagination but it certainly would smooth any mana concerns (specifically WW by Turn 2) that this deck has. However, leaving aside the viability of Vial (no pun intended) there is also no agreement on what cards would get removed for Vial (a major concern). However, it makes zero sense to remove Waves (some of the best tech in the deck against aggro & aggro-control...which seem to be everywhere at the moment....hmmm....) or SoFI (which provides card advantage and puts serious additional pressure on the opponent).
God, what an absolutely stupid suggestion, but not as stubbornly insensate as retaining suboptimal 1 drops when better options arise. If anyone wants to play this as straight WW with potential Turn 2 Angels & some equipment - go for it. But be prepared to lose because you are NOT playing the best aggro deck in the format & you now have no aggro-control path to victory. Congrats.....you can sideboard your Samurais in for Game 2 & hope you win both Games 2 AND 3 cuz you got hahachi-stomped Game 1. Especially against Landstill...you know, the best deck in the format Landstill? The sees play everywhere Landstill? The 'I hate Samurai but smile inside when you play Lion Kings' Landstill? On a side note, only an idiot would substitute out Priests or Knights, those stay and complement the Samurai - see the previous post for reasoning behind superiority of Samurai over Lion Kings. Read it twice if you need to do so, get help from the nice folks at Merriam-Webster if necessary.
Finally, yet another piece of fallacious reasoning concerning why NOT to run Aether Vial - the dreaded mass artifact hate in the sideboard. Oooooooooh, not the dreaded mass artifact hate in the sideboard. The stuff that is already coming in to be aimed at the SoFI, Mask of Memory, and Parallax Wave (in the case of Naturalize/Disenchant)? Yeahhhhhh, that. Hmmmm, overloading removal options has always been a legitimate path to victory and adding more must counter/destroy artifacts and enchantments is one of the better reasons to ADD Vial to the deck (not that I am advocating that, mind you).
To anyone actually playing the deck - go for it, have fun, thank Godzilla for a good deck. Post your results and experiences here, let's keep optimizing the deck. We have had some good discussion lately and that is refreshing and stimulating. Thank you. For the dilettantes who don't play the deck and distract us here at Jank Cards R Us, keep your theoretical and incorrect non-points to yourself.



Edited By scrumdogg on 1112887745

Zirilian
04-02-2005, 05:09 AM
What matchups are bad for this deck?
I know landstill is its worst,but are there any other bad ones?

Elvenwish
04-02-2005, 08:59 AM
In my experience, Landstill and Combo tend to be the bad matchups. I am lucky in that I don't run into too much combo here in the Charlotte, NC area but both can be problems. The combo I have played against and struggled with at some point is Belcher and Solidarity. Belcher is one of those deals where you either have the answer or you don't. Null Rod and Disenchant work extremely well as would be imagined. As for Solidarity, unless I am missing something this is the decks worste matchup. True Beleiver and Orim's Chant do nothing. You can protect true beleiver with MoR all you want but evacuation just kills you out of the sideboard. Orim's Chant simply delays the inevitable by one turn.

As for Landstill, I have played it a few times and have gone about 50/50 against the deck. I qualify this by saying I have played very few matches against the deck to even suggest that the matchup is 50/50 as I suspect it is far worse.

As for good matchups ... the deck has many. Anything Red based tends to be fairly easy. I also have a pretty easy time against teh R/G based Survival decks. ATS is a bit more problematic but nothing a good player shouldn't be able to handle. I have also had good experiences against Rock variants of numerous fashion. Control, excepting for Landstill, is also something I have come to see as a good matchup. Scepter-Chant can be a bit problematic if you run into it often, God knows I have over the past couple months, but non-scepter control tends to simply be a game of play a threat early and beat down ... a la Jamie Wakefield.

Zirilian
04-02-2005, 10:11 AM
So the bad matchups are,and the cards possible to side in against these decks are:
-Solidarity->Gaea's blessing;true believer
-Belcher->Null rods,any artifact removal
-Landstill->Decree of justice;armageddon

Maybe run some graveyard hate-cards,and I think that should do the trick as a decent sideboard,no?

@Scrummdogg:I tested the SotP,and they really help against decks like rgsa and ats,I especially liked no more recurring spore frogs and baloths,and the bushido also helps a lot in early combat :).

I think I'm going to check this Sideboard out:

1 disenchant
3 Aura of Silence
4 True believer
4 decree of justice
3 tormod's crypt

Timme
04-02-2005, 12:43 PM
ATS is a bit more problematic but nothing a good player shouldn't be able to handle.

Well, you ever played against a good ATS player ? I guess not.

Survival of the Fittest
1G Enchantment
Pay G, Discard a creaturecard from your hand: You win the game.

Against a good player, the SotF text is that. Angel Stompy cant win consitently against a good ATS player.
I played against a Angel Stompy player who played this.

1 Turn: Mother of Runes
2 Turn: Morph
3 Turn: Disenchant on SotF, Tithe
4 Turn: Disenchant on SotF, Solitary Priest
5 Turn: Exalted tapped, attacking

I won the game with 6 life, which is still quiet much life. He stands no chance, because i had a single SotF activation pre first Disenchant.

Another senario is.

1 Turn: Tithe
2 Turn: Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Turn: Disenchant on Survival
4 Turn: double Solitary Priest
5 Turn: nothing only attacking
6 Turn: he angry scooped his cards together

I am not the best ATS player, but luckily i made the best moves possible (like an experienced player would play) and even after double Disenchant or SotPC + Disenchant the SotF player can easyly procede to win.
That is why i would recommend to pack heavy Surival hate cards into your sideboard, especialy graveyard hate cards + removel is quiet a good combination to fight ATS.

Greetz Timme :D

scrumdogg
04-02-2005, 03:18 PM
I like Aura of Silence in the sideboard even though it is slower than Seal of Cleansing (but AoS has a much more powerful effect on the game when it hits). If you need more speed, go with Seal (or even Abolish), if you can spare the turn, run the Aura and watch what it does to players with artifacts and enchantments. Tormod's Crypts definitely belong in the board as they are the best compromise of tempo, cc, color consideration, and overall effect we are likely to get. In a side note, cards for a sideboard MUST be have multi-purpose roles, be flexible enough to deal with multiple decks unless (and ONLY unless) A) you can reliably expect mass repetitions of one or two decks & can focus your efforts to hose or B) there is a common matchup you CANNOT win without certain narrow sideboard options. <rant off> However, if there is a common deck you cannot beat Game 1 & it requires massive sideboard help...perhaps the deck needs to be further optimized.

Sideboard options:
Null Rod vs Abeyance - if you face serious activated artifact abuse in your area, Rod is probably better. Abeyance obviously has better overall use & cantrips, but is a one shot.

On a sub-note: Orim's Chant (or the budget conscious Gilded Light) are fine options as well. Both have applicability against combo & are fine against aggro that targets as well (Sligh, SD Zoo, G/R Beats). Useful as an option depending upon what you expect to see. True Believer falls into this category as well, with the added benefit of being protectable by Mom or SoFI & being able swing. It can be mass bounced, but that takes time & mana (and the correct cards) options your opponent should either not have or be under serious pressure to find before you rip his face off...we ARE aggro-control, remember.

Tormods Crypt - everything else is either sub-par or out of color. Given the prevalence of SotF & Landstill, it should be an automatic 3 of. Has the added benefit of cleaning up everything Samurai missed.

Armageddon - this strategy has been valid for years & the added utility of facing land based decks & decks which lust for mana makes it invaluable. In conjunction with Crypt & Samurai, the effect becomes even more brutal. Should be at least a 3 of.

Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing/Aura of Silence/Abolish - heck, even Soltari Visionary in a meta full of SotF (a move that was very successful when SotF was everywhere as the tempo swing is brutal, even IF the can continually recur the SotF). These items helps against SotF, Landstill (the 2 major concerns in terms of what you should expect to see) and much combo (the other concern in terms of problematic matchup). Should be a 3-4 of at the moment.

Gaea's Blessing - if you expect Stormbased blue, side 1. Otherwise don't bother.

Decree of Justice is a good overall card and good against board sweeping control. Definitely worth trying...although we come to number-crunching again....

@Timme:
Welcome to The Source and to the thread. Congrats on the two victories and on your opponent NEVER seeing an STP, Wave, SoFI or any other tempo Game 2. I am not advocating ATS as an easy match, but I look forward to good players running both decks against each other (including after sideboarding...) as the games should be even, interactive, and fun.

Zirilian
04-02-2005, 03:32 PM
Ok,I think this is decent as a Sideboard:
3 tormod's crypt
3 Armageddon
3 Decree of Justice
3 True Believer
3 Aura of Silence

Happy Gilmore
04-02-2005, 08:02 PM
Happy: I agree totally with your comments concerning Aether Vial. My point exactly. I do have one question though, why Shining Shoal? I understand that it is free damage redirection no matter the source dealing the damage. But how much damage do you really expect to be redirecting? Late game, yes, you can redirect quite a bit but early, when playing the spell for free you will redirect no more than two damage unless you dicard Exalted, something I am not sure I would be comfortable doing. What is your reasoning behind this? What do you not like about Parallax Wave? Is it your meta or am I missing something?


Shinning Shoal was just a suggestion. Because I am at college in AZ most of my magic playing takes place on MTGO, where I sometimes run into a ww deck running Shinning shoal. Shinning Shoal screwes with an opponent's math so much that at times it can simply win games. one of the reasons I was suggesting Shoal over Wave was that it decreases the number of targets for various removal spells. But like I said, I have no legacy testing to make an assertion either way. Just an idea.

Edit:
Aura of Silence is way too slow to help in the Survival matchup, I would Probably want to run Erase in its place because of the speed, and the "RFG". Abolish is also really good, but having 7-8 none plains mana sources can pose a problem.

NoGameShow
04-17-2005, 08:37 PM
Aura is a good answer in the survival match. Especially in the Macguyver match(I know this deck isn't that widely played yet but I have a feeling it will be big) but I digress. Aura equals more disenchant effects which equal more dead survivals which equals awesome. Plus if the Aura is dropped say second turn off of a mox and the survival player has falied to get that nasty little enchantment down he'll have to wait a couple more turns while you hopefully bash face.

As for Erase taking it's place in the board crypt already takes care of removing the SotF from the game as well as other meddlesome things (gensis, frogs, insert random witness target here).

GRAH
04-17-2005, 09:16 PM
I happen to have a soft spot for this sideboard:

4 Abeyance
3 Armageddon
2 Decree of Justice
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 True Believer

The Belcher and Solidarity matchups for this deck can, unfortunately, get ugly, which is why I have 7 cards boarded for it. The maindeck Disenchants have been enough for me to blast Survival, and Tormod's Crypt helps, too.

Evil Roopey
04-18-2005, 09:16 AM
Rule of Law>True Believer. True Believer just makes them find a Cunning Wish while going off, which isn't hard. Rule of Law means they have to find it before going off, which can be quite difficult.

Roop

EDIT:Angel Stompy sucks.

scrumdogg
04-18-2005, 09:29 AM
Rule of Law>True Believer. True Believer just makes them find a Cunning Wish while going off, which isn't hard. Rule of Law means they have to find it before going off, which can be quite difficult.

Roop

EDIT:Angel Stompy sucks.
Which is why True Believer should be maindeck (it swings and has application against more decks in the field) and Rule of Law (and Abeyance) should be sideboard. And yes, the decks sooooooo badly that it won Bob's Dual Land Draft with a suboptimal version.....terrible, visibly awful.... Quite frankly, had we been paying attention and made sure the sideboard was correct, the Angel Stompy deck from up north that went 4-3 would have been 6-1. It played (and lost to) 2 Solidarity decks without Rule of Law or Abeyance in the sideboard. That would have been 2 Angel Stompy decks in the Top 8. Wretched deck, unable to compete in a diverse field.....yeah right :cool:

Evil Roopey
04-18-2005, 09:38 AM
Winning a tournament says nothing about anything. I've seen MoSH win a tournament! Does that make the deck good? When was the last time AStompy put any numbers at all? When the deck consisntantly does well like it used to I will take back my comment.

SpatulaOfTheAges
04-18-2005, 09:45 AM
Let's not go down this road again. It's really just opinion right now. If Angel Stompy keeps winning on the East coast as well as the West, it will prove that it's a very strong deck. If it doesn't, then it might have been a bit of a fluke. Either way, time will tell.

f|i[p]
04-18-2005, 12:04 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid2]has anyone tested umezawa's jitte? it offers alot of options plus its alot faster to cast... just a suggestion.. dont know what card to replace though.. i tried replacing one sword of fire and ice for it.. but i dont really get to test it that much.. i just like the options it provides..:p

ohh just to back the jitte i suggested... if the creature equiped with the jitte manages to stay in the game for sum time....or the jitte itself gets to stay in play... it really really does give a head ache to your opponent.. u can even use the counters b4 it gets destroyed.. thats if it manages to store counters..but ofcorz creature based decks hate this more than control or combo decks... but i wouldnt know.. i only got to test it against aggro decks.. :)

[color=red:post_uid2][i:post_uid2]Welcome to the board but please be aware of the following things: Do not double post and please review the
rules about posting in the Legacy Metagame Forum (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=625). Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Peter_Rotten[/i:post_uid2][/color:post_uid2][/color:post_uid2]

scrumdogg
04-18-2005, 01:13 PM
Welcome to The Source. Just a couple of quick points, you should probably be careful about double posting (Peter Rotten gets angry), poor grammar & capitalization (Peter Rotten is now frothing at the mouth) and check spelling even if English isn't your first language (full blown conniptions by the English teacher-mod by now....). This especially applies in the LMF since they want high level discussion on these decks. :cool: On to your idea, which is a cool one. I really hadn't seriously considered the Jitte, even after I had to re-evaluate how good it can be based on getting my faced smashed repeatedly in Type 2. There are two different comparisons that have to be made since the card can only realistically replace 3 cards: Mask of Memory (which it probably shouldn't do since it cannot draw cards, the necessary element that MoM provides), Sword of Fire & Ice (see below), and Parallax Wave (see below).

Advantages of Jitte vs SoFI: does not have to deal combat damage to a player to become active, provides -X/-X to critters instead of 2 set damage (and the amount can be more than 2), can gain life, can pump the equipped critter higher than +2/+2 although the bonus is not permanent.

Advantages of SoFI vs Jitte: provides a permanent bonus of +2/+2, grants protection from blue and red (although counters on Jitte provide de facto pro-red by negating burn) - both of those abilities requiring no further investment beyond equipping said critter, draws a card when it deals damage, the 2 points of damage it generates on damaging a player in combat can also hit that player.

Hmmmm....this merits testing because both cards have good effects, and the Jitte comes out 1 mana cheaper. Depending upon what you expect to face, that might also make a difference.

Advantages of Jitte vs Parallax Wave: a more permanent source of removal (via -X/-X & counters), a more permanent permanent (does not fade out), same cost to cast & equip but that can be spread out over multiple turns, gains life or pumps critter, makes your position more threatening (can be an aggro element against any deck, incluing creatureless builds like Solidarity).

Advantages of Parallax Wave vs Jitte: saving your guys from removal - whether individual or mass removal - almost guaranteed, providing a save after combat (damage on the stack tricks), ability to morph an Angel painlessly (although, to be fair, if you can cast wave, you can morph the Angel anyway...), does not die to dedicated artifact removal, can clear out opposing critters for an alpha strike.

Hmmmm....again some interesting contrasts, also worht testing. I am more excited about trying a build with MoM, SoFI, AND Jitte but without the P. Waves. I am hoping that several people will be testing these possibilities and that we all report back.

NoGameShow
04-18-2005, 02:22 PM
My one problem with adding jitte is the fact that it is legendary. This limits you to only playing one at a time while the sword can be slapped down and then another one can follow it for more fun. In my playing two swords on a shadowy guy is awesome. This discussion almost makes me want to ponder e.tutor again but still don't knwo if it's possible.

lyle h
04-18-2005, 08:04 PM
I have been testing it recently and I am running it in the mask of memory slot. Although I really like the mask's card draw powers, it does not have the versatility of the jitte. So far I am starting to prfer the jitte. The creature removal possibility has proven more useful for me in the format.

My problem about adding it into the P.Wave slot is that with 3 types of ecquiptment it not only gets harder to fight through artifact hate in addition to not being able to find food for your chrome moxes.

I really am torn on if the jitte warrants inclusion or not, while it can come down turn 2 attatched on a lion, the mask lets you find your SB cards much quicker in games 2+3, ,plus the jitte might be overkill on the amount of creature removal the deck would then pack.

GRAH
04-18-2005, 09:01 PM
I wouldn't say the Jitte merits inclusion. Tradewind shuts it down, and Survival and Landstill have easy answers to it.

Now, you could make the same argument against Mask, but if you're playing Survival or Landstill, are you really going to blow up that Mask? Or would you rather blow up an SoFnI or Mox?

Bongo
04-20-2005, 06:35 AM
//NAME: Legacy Angel Stompy
// Mana
11 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Tithe
// Beats
4 Mother of Runes
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Exalted Angel
// Control & Draw
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
3 Mask of Memory
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Parallax Wave
Leaving the heavily discussed sideboard out for a moment, I want to shift the focus on the maindeck. I'm assuming that the decklist posted on the first page of this thread is still accurate, so I'm working from there.

The main weakness of Angel Stompy seem to be the high mulligan rates and the occasional self implosion due to mana screw. Although the deck has 22 mana sources, I would be much happier if I could somehow bump this up to 24. This might seem like too much, but spare lands can be discarded to Mask of Memory, so that shouldn't be too bad.

Now the big question is, what two cards can be cutted for two additional mana sources?

Zirilian
04-20-2005, 07:10 AM
My build has been running very smoothly on 23 mana sources,here's what I cut :
1 Savannah lions for an extra chrome mox.
1 ancient tomb for 1 plains extra,because I found it hard to get 2 white mana for a knight.

Happy Gilmore
04-21-2005, 12:41 PM
My build has been running very smoothly on 23 mana sources,here's what I cut :
1 Savannah lions for an extra chrome mox.
1 ancient tomb for 1 plains extra,because I found it hard to get 2 white mana for a knight.
Even though you are increasing the mana count by one, you are changing the white mana sources by two. Good call btw, I agree with -1 lions especially considering that it is a "suboptimal 1 drops." :cool:

Edit: Some quick testing on MWS reveals a decrease in the # of mulligans by 7% in a trial of fifty hands. Small fix, good results.

GRAH
04-21-2005, 02:35 PM
Personally, I've been doing -1 Parallax -1 Tomb +1 Plains +1 Mask, but my meta's a bit crappy.

Another point: In t2, a friend of mine replaced all of his Lions with Tundra Wolves, bringing up an interesting point. Lions loses to or trades with anything short of Birds and Wall of Roots. Wolves at least beats X/1s, which aren't rare in this format. Is this a possibility?

Happy Gilmore
04-22-2005, 05:56 PM
Personally, I've been doing -1 Parallax -1 Tomb +1 Plains +1 Mask, but my meta's a bit crappy.

Another point: In t2, a friend of mine replaced all of his Lions with Tundra Wolves, bringing up an interesting point. Lions loses to or trades with anything short of Birds and Wall of Roots. Wolves at least beats X/1s, which aren't rare in this format. Is this a possibility?
With all the talk about ineffective one drops I don't think introducing Tundra Wolves will improve the situation.

Regarding your mana base changes, I think Zirilian has a beter solution. Greater consistency, and you don't weaken the deck nearly as much.

On a side note, Tundra Wolves have alot more merit in T2 due to not trading with elders, witnesses, Firewalkers (first turn), hearth Kami, etc. etc.

ns2973
04-22-2005, 10:40 PM
Personally, I've been doing -1 Parallax -1 Tomb +1 Plains +1 Mask, but my meta's a bit crappy.

Another point: In t2, a friend of mine replaced all of his Lions with Tundra Wolves, bringing up an interesting point. Lions loses to or trades with anything short of Birds and Wall of Roots. Wolves at least beats X/1s, which aren't rare in this format. Is this a possibility?
look your missing the point on the lions, if they can get blocked you usually don't swing w/ em. they are meant to smash to the face not kill other creatures.

NoGameShow
04-23-2005, 11:09 AM
Me and Scrumdogg have recently took a version of this deck to syracuse for the dual draft. I was very impressed with my showing (despite facing two solidarity decks with nothing but true believers as answers to it). I belive this decklist proved itself to me there and I would not hesitate to run it again.

Mana:
12 plains
4 ancient tomb
3 chrome mox
3 tithe

Removal:
4 swords to plowshares
3 parallax wave
2 disenchant

Critters:
4 samurai of the pale curtain
4 soltari priests
4 mother of runes
3 true believer
4 exalted angel
2 soltari visionary
3 silver knight

Equipment:
3 mask of memory
2 sword of fire and ice

Sideboard:
3 armageddon
3 aura of silence
3 pariah
2 tormods crypt
2 tsabo's web
1 true believer
1 sword of light and shadow
(room has to be found for abeyance)



I'd like input if anyone wants to help me out. I'll answer any questions that I can.

Zirilian
04-23-2005, 05:54 PM
With only 3 tithe and 3 Chrome mox,aren't you experiencing trouble with getting WW for 4 samurai of the pale curtain,soltari priests,true believer,exalted angel and silver knight?
Also,what is that 1 sword of light and shadow doing there?

Gilmore:Thanks for the compliment :)

NoGameShow
04-23-2005, 09:12 PM
I have had minimal mana issues maybe I'm just a luck sack but the mana seems perfect for me. The sword in the board is actually a very helpful tool it provides pro white against StP and in the survival match it can act like a psuedo genesis giving you valuable recursion.

Zirilian
04-24-2005, 04:59 PM
I think you're a luck sack,because I sometimes have trouble getting that WW,even with the added white sources.

Also,I think tithe is too good a card not to run 4.

rhino408
04-24-2005, 09:40 PM
This deck is killer:) . Yeah there is a problem achieving double W unless you have 4xTithe 3xChrome Mox. Anything that isn't evasive or really useful in this format should not be played:blues: . With that said I have tried and tried, but the list Godzilla made already is almost perfected except maybe a Tomb out for Plains but that might affect how fast i morph exalted and how fast I can cast SoFI and MoM.

Zilla
04-25-2005, 01:44 AM
4 Tithe is a must in my opinion. It's card advantage and a mana fixer. I hear a lot of complaints that people are having trouble getting WW, so my suggestion would be not to drop a Tomb (because it will negatively affect your ability to get turn 2 morph or Sword), but to drop one of the Masks of Memory. In my experience, it has been the least effective in multiples, and I nearly always play them after I play out my Swords. My suggestion would be to go -1 Mask, +1 Plains and see how well that fixes mana consistency issues.

Zirilian
04-25-2005, 05:13 PM
I'll try that change and see how it works for me :)
I think my MD list is almost optimal,but my Sb still needs help.

My meta is diverse,I suspect most of the decks to beat will be there,and also some extended and T1 ports,like tog and sligh.

So far,I think these are no-brainers:
3 Armageddon (control)
1 disenchant (survival)
3 True Believer (belcher and solidarity)

That leaves me 8 slots,suggestions would be greatly appreciated :).

Hanzalot
04-25-2005, 07:17 PM
Hi,

Just a quick note.

First of all, the deck looks great. I'm a type 1 player but am thinking of selling off the expensive cards and switching to legacy due to, among other things, the fact that the format has cool decks such as this.

I haven't tested the deck that much yet, but if Savannah Lions are the least good creature in the deck, then what about changing them to Icatian Javelineers?

As far as I can tell this format is also swarmed by welders (as well as birds, elves, goblins and so on) so is this a possibility?

Again, thanks to GodzillA for this great deck.

scrumdogg
04-28-2005, 11:59 AM
Icatian Javelineers are a neat card, but they suffer from a couple problems. The removal element is great, especially for weasel critters that you mention. However, many of them will come into play hasty, thereby negating the ability of the Javelineers to prevent them from functioning. Furthermore, the Javelineers must tap to activate, meaning they have trouble helping you reverse a bad board position (since they won't have haste) and the tapping puts a kink in your tempo. After they become the vanilla 1/1 again, they have neither size, nor evasion, nor special ability to justify their existence. That being said, test the hell out of the little suckers and prove me wrong...maybe they are the wave of the future :cool: Welcome to The Source and a better, more fun format.

CavernNinja
04-29-2005, 02:13 AM
So Icatian Javilineers is in a very similar deck that Zilla based a lot of Angel Stompy on. It's called WWW and can be found somewhere around here:
Wayfarer White Weenie (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2639)

WWW is slower but much more consistent, not having the crappy mana base in a monocolored deck.

troopatroop
04-30-2005, 09:02 PM
I don't really know why everyones playing Angel Stompy over WWW. I've played A-STOMP and know how it plays, and to me its rather unimpressive. It's clunky with equipment, and unless you're going turn 2/3 angel I'd rather be playing WWW. Ever wonder what happends to Landstill when they get wastelanded over and over... They scoop. IMO, WWW is much better against ATS and Landstill, and should be seeing much more play than A-STOMP. I also agree with CavernNinja on the manabase. This deck's manabase is balls, but its necessary for the deck to win. I just think people should take another look at WWW and put this deck down.

GRAH
05-01-2005, 01:43 AM
Except turn 2/3 Angel really isn't that uncommon, and is usually GG against many decks. Seriously, how many decks in the environment can easily handle early Angel beats? Turn 2 Angel followed by turn 3 Sword is pretty much always a forfeit, and yes, I've managed that more than once.

However, I think that Landstill is and probably always will be a bad matchup. It's simply got too many answers.

troopatroop
05-01-2005, 03:44 PM
You get 2nd turn angel once in a blue moon, and just because the deck is capable of turn 2 angel doesn't mean that its going to happen often. Who says that turn 2 angel wins the game anyways? STP? Bolt? Your angel and entire gameplan is a vulnerable 2/2 for the first turn. It's FAR from fulproof.

Why play Angel Stompy over WWW?

That question definetly needs to be answered, since WWW has a better match against Landstill and ATS.

Zirilian
05-01-2005, 04:30 PM
Weird,I though blue moons were supposed to be rare...

I get 2nd turn angels about 30 % of the time,and just for the record:this deck doesn't need angel to win.

midnightAce
05-01-2005, 05:25 PM
Why play Angel Stompy over WWW?

I believe Angel Stompy is a better choice. Here are some of my reasons from tracking both threads from the start.

Creatures with envasion:
WWW 4 (Priest)
AS 8 (Priest + Angel)

Mana Acceleration:
WWW 2-3 at best (Mox)
AS 7-8 (Tombs + Mox)

Ability to creature control:
WWW 8 (StP + Javelineers <-- Extremely limited)
AS 7-8 (StP + Wave <-- Deals with multiple creatures)

It is commonly accepted that a great deal of meta is currently dominated by aggro-control decks. With the above satistics, it's not hard to see why AS is much more popular and doing well.

Also, quotes from the match up page to further reflect my points:


Wayfarer White Weenie: A very good matchup. This is essentially a mirror match, except you're faster, have higher threat density, more removal, and bigger threats.

AND


Landstill: A decent matchup, likely in your favor. This matchup is rather draw dependent, and depends somewhat on the Landstill build you're facing. It's not uncommon to outdraw them, thus overwhelming their counter defense with threats is not overly difficult.

Just some of my thoughts.

GRAH
05-01-2005, 05:30 PM
Why play Angel Stompy over WWW?
WWW is too packed with tiny things, and its lack of speed really hurts any control matchup it could have. Angel Stompy, however, brings out medium-sized threats in the first two turns. Angel Stompy deals mroe damage faster, and can generally keep up with Survival in terms of power to speed.

Zilla
05-01-2005, 08:02 PM
So Icatian Javilineers is in a very similar deck that Zilla based a lot of Angel Stompy on.
For clarification, Angel Stompy was actually created a couple months before WWW, before the Sep. 30 B/R changes. It was based heavily on JP Meyers' White Lightning, foregoing a lot of the control elements of that deck for a more aggro approach. The Masks of Memory are owed to WWW, however, as they were replacements for Skullclamp, which were in the pre-B/R build.

With regards to the reason to play this over WWW, GRAH covered it pretty well. This deck drops significant, potentially game-ending threats as early as turn 2. WWW uses a swarm approach, which against certain archetypes may be beneficial, but is not as solid approach in an aggro-heavy meta, which is what Angel Stompy was originally designed for.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-01-2005, 08:05 PM
Seriously, how many decks in the environment can easily handle early Angel beats?
ATS- It bounces the damned thing, assuming it resolves in the first place.

Landstill- Swords, Force of Will. Heck, Wrath.

Enchantress- They don't care.

Solidarity- Doesn't care, unless they've gotten the worst hand imaginable.


Even Goblin-Sligh can deal with it easily. Turning Lightning Bolt into an Ancestral Recall for your opponent isn't hot. I agree with earlier sentiment that WWW is a much more stable deck better able to handle the threats of the metagame. I simply have to disagree with your sentiments- I've always found WWW ten times as solid against control as Angel Stompy. A steady stream of Wastelands beats a big fat Swords target anyday, even ignoring the atrocious and easily disrupted mana base. I'm not aware when the enviroment started being dominated by Aggro-Control, either. Certainly there's a plethora of decks in that archetype, but none of them are really dominant or even extremely viable beyond RGSA.

troopatroop
05-01-2005, 08:52 PM
You're wrong on the Landstill matchup

Do you know the reason why WWW was made? Wayfarer can fetch wasteland 4 turns in a row. Landstill often scoops to that. WWW > Angel Stompy against control.

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-01-2005, 10:45 PM
For clarification, Angel Stompy was actually created a couple months before WWW, before the Sep. 30 B/R changes.
I don't really care about this discussion, as it's my opinion that neither deck is particularly strong right now, but WWW was created before AStompy.

http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin....=weenie (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2425)

CavernNinja
05-02-2005, 01:26 AM
Hell WWW won it's first Amrod's well before ASStompy was created.

And the swarm mentality is wrong. It uses Sword to make a single threat a large threat. WWW is not the traditional WW build and is quite far from the swarm mentallity. WWW can lay threats more often than Angel Stompy can and doesn't need the acceleration because it's curve tops at two, with the exception of the three swords. The low curve allows for an effecient threat (even more effecient when coupled with the equipment) every turn unlike Angel Stompy which quickly runs out of threats.

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-02-2005, 02:00 AM
The difference is that AStompy uses fat threats, and WWW uses flexible utility creatures and card advantage. As such I don't doubt the claim that AStompy does better in an aggro-heavy meta-game, whereas WWW seems better suited combat to control and Survival variants.

I think this whole conversation might be a bit unnecessary.

Peter_Rotten
05-02-2005, 08:26 AM
I think this whole conversation might be a bit unnecessary.
Seconded. Let's move on since this discussion already happened last summer and was about as productive as this one.

matxer
05-02-2005, 03:22 PM
I'm playtesting AS for a mws toruney. I know there is at least 1 Solidarity deck in this tourney.

My sb is currently:

* 2 disenchants
* 2 aura of silence
* 3 Armageddon (is it so good ? vs Standstill ?)
* 3 warmths (AS just can't win against a pure sligh which does only direct damage: I lost 5 in a row without sb !)
* 3 decrees of justice
* 2 Tormod Crypts (there's at least 1 B reanimator in the tourney)

So I need to add True Believer against Solidarity.
Can True Believer be replaced by Defense Grid ? If so can I replace also the 3 decrees of justice by 3 Defense Grids ?

How about 4 defense grid in, 3 decrees + 1 armageddon out to deal with all blue decks ?

And how about replacing maindeck 2 savanah lions by 2 true believers, which are also good against many decks ?

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-02-2005, 03:46 PM
Defense Grid is much better against Solidarity than True Believer. I'm pretty sure True Believer is for decks like Belcher or Tendrils; it doesn't do much to Solidarity.

matxer
05-02-2005, 03:59 PM
And is defense grid good against Landstill ?

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-02-2005, 04:41 PM
It's okay. It doesn't do anything about Wrath.