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Sturtzilla
07-07-2013, 12:13 AM
I. Overview
II. History
III. Decklists
IV. Card Choices

a.) Manabase

b.) Creatures

c.) Spells
V. Reasons to Play Deathblade over other Stoneforge Decks

a.) Esper Stoneblade

b.) UW Stoneblade

c.) UWR Stoneblade
VI. Match-ups

a.) RUG Delver

b.) UWR Delver

c.) Shardless BUG

d.) BUG Tempo

e.) Elves

f.) Death and Taxes

g.) ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

h.) Miracle Control

i.) Sneak and Show

j.) Omnitell

k.) Deathblade (mirror)

l.) Jund

m.) Maverick
VII. Additional Information

a.) Major Tournament Reports and Articles

b.) Feature Matches and Versus Videos

c.) Additional Deck Lists


I. Overview

Deathblade is a fair deck that gains its name from two Legacy stars, Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman. Similar to its predecessors, :u::w: Stoneblade and Esper Stoneblade, Deathblade runs the core Stoneforge Mystic and equipment package. This is a central element that many other decks have a hard time fighting through. The Deathbalde variant employs other diverse threats such as Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Geist of Saint Traft and/or Tarmogoyf. In addition to some of the game’s most aggressive, disruptive, and flexible creatures, Deathbalde has access to arguably the game’s best removal in Swords to Plowshares, disruption in Force of Will, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize. These elements are all held together by the cards selection power of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Jace also gives the deck another angle of attack beyond the traditional dealing of 20 points of damage.

As of the writing of this primer, there does not seem to be an agreed upon 60 card maindeck for this new strategy. There has been a good bit of variation of the creature package outside of Deathrite and Stoneforge. You will be able to observe this in III. Decklists section.


II. History

Deathblade appeared quickly after the Return to Ravnica (October 2012) expansion’s release of the Legacy sleeper Deathrite Shaman. Star City Games grinder Brian Braun-Duin quickly identified the power of Deathrite Shaman and incorporated it in a Stoneforge shell. This early version was more attrition-centric and geared towards the sequence of turn one fetch, Deathrite into turn two Liliana of the Veil. After BBD’s success with the archetype, many other players picked up and began brewing with the deck. This currently is the state of the Deathbalde deck. Many players are trying to determine the best configuration of the maindeck and sideboard.

For a more comprehensive reading on the more traditional Stoneblade decks, check out the Blade Control primer here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-DTB-Blade-Control

And now the deck!


III. Decklists

1st Lauren Nolen, Star City Open: Nashville; 5/19/2013
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Notion Thief
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

2nd Jack Fogle, Star City Open: Nashville; 5/19/2013
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
1 Lingering Souls
2 Supreme Verdict

1st Todd Anderson, Star City Open: Columbus; 6/16/2013
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
1 Detention Sphere
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Detention Sphere
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

7th Rudy Briksza, Star City Open: Philadelphia; 6/23/2013
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
1 Detention Sphere
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Detention Sphere
1 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace Beleren
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize


IV. Card Choices

a.) Manabase - Deathblade’s mana base is truly unique in the Legacy landscape. Many decks play a fetchland centric mana base used to gain quick access to two or even three colors. Deathblade pushes this aspect to the next level by using the a combination of fetches to be able to find dual lands that produce blue, white, black, and even green mana. This aspect of the deck allows for casting of all of the powerful option that the deck incorporates. Running a very dual heavy mana base (some with no basics) very susceptible to decks running Wasteland and Stifle. More specifically, the mana base of this deck can be fairly weak to Legacy tempo strategies that attack complex mana bases.

Deathblade also makes use of Wasteland. It is a great tool to deal with problematic lands, tempo opponents, keep opponents off of a color, and it also plays very well with Deathrite Shaman.

The last portions of the mana base that deserve discussioin are Creeping Tar Pit and Karakas. Tar Pit offers an evasive threat that can be difficult to remove. It coupled with the incremental damage from a Deathrite can be enough to win games. Karakas give the deck a way to deal with large cheated fatties out of decks like Reanimator and Show and Tell. This card also gives a source of continued disruption when used in tandem with Vendilion Clique. Karakas also can keep Geist of Saint Traft alive while still allowing a 4/4 Angel token to punch through for some final damage.

b.) Creatures – The exact configurations of the creature base of the deck have changed a little since the deck’s beginning. The following is a description of some of the creature choices and the roles that they play in the deck.

Deathrite Shaman essentially functions as a one mana planeswalker. His ability to accelerate this deck past the competition by removing our spent fetchlands, can allow for turn 2 Geists and turn three Jaces. Deathrite can also cause our opponents to lose life, getting us closer to winning or conversely allow us to gain life, which can keep us alive versus damage oriented strategies. With all of these benefits, there is one additional edge that this guy delivers. His ability to remove spent cards from graveyards can keep threats from being Reanimated, keep cards from being Snapcasted, and shrink Tarmogoyfs.

Stoneforge Mystic the second of the decks namesake cards can provide card advantage, offense, and/or defense. Searching out and cheating in Batterskull or Umezawa’s Jitte can often be enough to get decks to fold.

Dark Confidant is just one of the best card advantage engines in the game. If this guy goes unanswered for a turn or two the additional cards drawn should be enough to bury your opponent.

Snapcaster Mage is another great card for generating card advantage. By rebuying spent cards, you can grind out opposing decks. You can do this while also gaining an aggressive body.

Vendilion Clique allows for instant speed interaction with an opponent’s hand. This is typically best versus combo oriented decks. It is very powerful when used in conjunction with Karakas. Also a 3/1 flying body can make quick work of an opponent in conjunction with Deathrite’s life lose mode.

Geist of Saint Traft is a difficult to remove threat that provides a fast clock. This is another great card to attack combo oriented strategies as it typically kills in three attacks in this format. In spite of is small body, using Karakas or equipping it can really allow it to punch through opposing creatures.

c.) Spells – Deathblade’s suite of spells is rather multidimensional. It incorporated creature and permanent removal, discard, counter magic, library manipulation, and also the best planeswalker ever printed. Let’s dive in!

Swords to Plowshares is regarded by many to be the best piece of creature removal in the game. :w: to remove any creature threat is about as good as it gets. While it could play more synergistically with Deathrite, being able to remove all types and sizes of creatures is easily worth it.

Abrupt Decay, Detention Sphere, and Vindicate while these are all typically used to take out creatures so that our primary game plan of deal 20 damage can be realized, these cards give the deck ways to interact with troublesome non-creature permanents.

Brainstorm and Ponder these cards allow for the smoothing out of draws. Paying :u: to find the removal spell you or threat you need is almost a necessity in Legacy. Also remember that these cards can be really great in use with the deck’s shuffle effects like fetchlands and Stoneforges. Brainstorming back unnecessary cards not only refreshes you hand but if you fetch after, resets the top of your deck as well. This is what many Legacy aficionados call the pseudo Ancestral Recall.

Thougheseize and Inquisition of Kozilek these are disruptive elements that can keep combo decks from having the resources that they need to win. These cards can also be used to raise the likelihood that a Stoneforge Mystic or Dark Confidant survives an opponent’s next turn in order to gain some value.

Umezawa’s Jitte and Batterskull are the deck’s two key “blades.” Finding and sneaking one of these into play with a Stoneforge is often a play that many decks cannot beat. It is worth noting here that although they have not found themselves in any lists to date, Swords of X and Y may be worth considering either here or in the sideboard.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor... this guy shouldn't require a description. He does basically everything you could want out of a planeswalker for this type of deck. He can generate card advantage, tempo by bouncing creatures, and can also serve as a win condition. As "Tha Gatherin" has told us for years now, he is better than all... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Force of Will may be a source of card disadvantage, it is a catch all card that keeps decks fair. Being able to counter a key spell can be the difference between winning or losing a game or match. FoW can often be cast for its actual mana cost with this deck thanks to the high land count and Deathrite.

f.) Sideboard Options - As this deck has just really come onto the scene, the sideboards are early in their construction. I would wager that there are more options for the sideboard but they have yet to be discovered and experimented with. I generally don’t believe in just following a sideboard guide that another person gives you. It detracts from the learning and understanding experience that comes with higher level Magic. Therefore I will outline the cards in the sideboards above. You can make the decision about how to board on your own. However let’s get right to it!

Engineered Explosives gives the deck a powerful and flexible removal option that can deal with multiple threats at once. Casting this for 0 can allow an extremely cheap means to deal with armies of tokens. Casting it at 1 can take out hard to remove creatures like Nimble Mongoose. This card also takes out problem permanents... not just creatures.

Surgical Extraction is one of the many graveyard hate options that is availible to this deck. You might be thinking, "Sturtzilla, I already have 4 Deathrites, what need do I have for additional graveyard hate?" Well there are decks out there like Dredge and Reanimator, that can power through a single card being removed from their graveyard. Surgical offers a mana free cost if you are tapped out. It also plays favorably with Snapcaster Mage.

Nihil Spellbomb is another graveyard interaction option. Nihil Spellbomb allows for the total removal of an opponent's graveyard, which in the matchups that you bring it in, should be a big advantage. This spell bomb costs only 1 mana to cast and activate, but for an additional :b: you can have this card replace itself by drawing you a card when used. One thing worth noting here is that Nihil Spellbomb does not remove your graveyard. This can be a great advantage over Relic of Progenitus. It leaves your graveyard unmolested for further, mana production, life loss, and life gain triggers with Deathrite.

Relic of Progenitus is likely the most powerful of the one shot graveyard hate options. This card can attrition out a graveyard by use each turn, or for an additional mana remove all graveyards from the game, while drawing you a card. This is maybe a bit more aggressive, and less synergistic than the Nihil Spellbomb. It is still worth considering.

Flusterstorm is a great anticombo tool. Being able to counter key parts of an opponent's combo turn can win you games. Also this card is a bit more narrow than options like Spell Pierce but is more or less uncounterable. It is a pretty nice cards to help with Storm match ups.

Hydroblast would be a good but narrow tool for use against red heavy strategies.

Spell Pierce is another card that is helpful in combo match ups. It has the added flexibility of being able to counter artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers (when being compared to to Flusterstorm).

Path to Exile can function as Swords to Plowshares 5-8 if necessary. This card has the added benefit of having no downside when brought in against decks like RUG Delver that run no basic lands. Typically running StP is superior to PtE as letting an opponent gain some life has less of an impact than accelerating them a turn by letting them find an extra land.

Duress can be brought in to give added disruption when facing spell heavy decks. These would typically be combo oriented.

Thoughtseize can be brought in to increase your discard disruption density. It allows for the cherry picking of the card that your particular hand would have the hardest time dealing with. If you have all the answers, this just becomes a straight one-for-one that can make your opponent's job a lot more difficult.

Snapcaster Mage can be brought in if you think rebuying certain spells is the way to go in a particular match up. Against combo decks, snapcasting discard spells or spell pierces can be very devastating. Snapcasting StP or PtE can be backbreaking to aggro decks.

Celestial Purge this is a fairly narrow sideboard option geared toward taking out Jund's threats (here it kill everything they play with the exception of Tarmogoyf). Most notably it has been an all star at taking out Dark Confidants and Liliana of the Veils

Disenchant is a versatile piece of sideboard technology that deals with opposing Batterskulls and Umezawa's Jittes. In addition it can be an all star in dealing with threats from Affinity and Dream Halls/Omniscience. These may not be the biggest of threats in your meta game, but this card is almost a certain inclusion.

Counterspell is a solid choice if you want to change your game two and three strategy to be more controlling.

Meddling Mage chants so loudly that no one can get a spell in edgewise... he is great at keeping key cards out of combo decks off of the stack/table. He is just a great hate card and does provides a modest clock. I have been surprised at how well this little guy can end games even in spite of his small size.

Golgari Charm can be used as a two mana, near Wrath of God. There are a number of strategies that play numerous small creatures... Elves, Goblins, RUG Delver (pre-thresh/delver flip), Belcher... etc. Charm allows you to X-for-1 you opponent and usually gain a significant advantage. There are plenty of other decks that this piece of tech can also be pretty potent against.

Lingering Souls offers a means by which to generate multiple threats. These guys are typically best tasked with carrying your equipment! They can also play defense to hep keep you or a Jace alive.

Jace Beleren is an interesting inclusion. I would wager that this was a turn 2 play to create an edge versus other "Big Jace" decks. Under the current rules making a "Baby Jace" on turn two thus nullifying opposing "Big Jaces" can be valuable. This option will lose some value with the M14 rules change. Post change this is probably a slot that is more deserving of another card.

Vendilion Clique if you need more hand interaction versus combo oriented decks, look no further. This sneaky fairy increases the difficulty of opponents comboing while also providing a reasonable clock. Clique is also pretty awesome at murdering planeswalkers such as Jace and Liliana. If you find your self in a tough spot, you can even use this guy as a pseudo ambush viper and/or cycling card.

Detention Sphere for problematic permanents of hordes of tokens, look no further. This option is also pretty nice against Show and Tell strategies. They can get their scary threat into play, then you can just remove it. In this capacity Oblivion Ring can also be a solid option. Between these two there is the argument of being able to be pitched to FoW versus the ability to be REB/Pryoblasted... just some things to consider.

Geist of Saint Traft is a great way to speed up your clock versus decks with low creature counts... I am looking at you combo decks! Geist can just be a great threat when coupled with some equipment or the bouncing protection of Karakas. The hexproof makes him a great addition against decks that are heavy with targeted removal.

Vindicate a great multidimensional card for deal with whatever issue may be vexing you at a given point in the game. Remember this guy can hit troublesome lands!

Notion Thief has received a lot of acclaim regarding his blow-out centric interaction with an opponent's Brainstorm. Getting a 3/1 body, drawing 3 cards, and making an opponent put 2 cards back on top of their deck is just an absolute beating. This card may border on or be and example of "The Danger of Cool Things." Sure the effect is really powerful, but actually executing this plan can be fairly difficult. I think this card is very powerful but I have yet to see this guy actually pull off the above line, leading to a blow out. I would still label him worth consideration versus Combo decks with lots of manipulation.

Supreme Verdict is a great way to reset the battlefield from a lost game state. It does not play particularly well with all of the creatures that the deck runs. As the caster of the spell, you know if/when it will be cast. This gives you the advantage of creating blow out scenarios.

Force of Will is just a great way to sure up your combo match up. Being able to shut down unfair strategies while tapped out is just a necessity in this format.


V. Reasons to Deathblade over other Stoneforge Decks

a.) Esper Stoneblade – The major difference between the traditional Esper Stoneblade variant and the newcomer, Deathblade, is the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman and the subsequent broadening of the deck's mana base into a fourth color, green. Deathrite brings a lot of power to the deck by virtue giving the deck a means of mana acceleration, clock in the form of the second mode, and life gain in the third mode. This is all coupled with the power of interacting with opposing graveyards. The mana acceleration can power you into turn 2 Geist of Saint Trafts and turn 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptors. This means Deathblade can functionally curve out one full turn faster than Esper Stonebalde can. This is at the price of a slightly less stable mana base. In effort to add all of the functionality of Deathrite, a very dual heavy mana base is played. Some other notable difference are that Deathblade gains access to the uncounterable Abrupt Decay. This is often an all star. Deathblade lists have been omitting the traditional staple Lingering Souls. Overall Deathblade can be a bit faster and has the additional upside of having preboard graveyard interaction at cost of a more complex mana base.

b.) UW Stoneblade – Most of the points made above about the differences between Esper Stoneblade and Deathblade are the same as those between UW and UWR Stoneblade variants. Deathrite allows faster starts, preboard graveyard interaction, and a clock. This basically makes him a turn one, must answer threat. In the UW context, you really have to determine if you are playing against UW Stoneblade or UW Vaporblade. The former is a less flexible version of Deathblade with a more solid mana base. The latter is actually a tempo deck with a strong early game but a much weaker late game than presented by Deathblade.

c.) UWR Stoneblade - This deck is usually played much more aggressively than Deathblade. It does not pack any acceleration, which mean Deathblade can land Geist first and begin attacking with it sooner. UWR sometimes would have the advantage of the sideboard tech of Price of Progress. This is a beating to Deathblade. Deathblade has the more powerful spells in general but the weaker mana base. So the Deathblade player has to negotiate carefully to be able to play them at the right times.


VI. Match Ups

a.) RUG Delver - RUG Delver has been a consistent favorite in Legacy for quite some time now. This match up can seem very polarized but probably comes out about even. A very aggressive RUG draw can be tough for Deathblade to deal with do to the need for 1-2 mana to use our Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decays. The versions of Deathblade that do no run basics are at a bigger disadvantage here, as one of RUG's main angles of attack is to keep us off of lands with Stifle and Wasteland. Due to this on of the most imperative parts to the match up is making sure you can have your lands when you need to cast your most important spells. This means sequencing your lands and fetching must be done very carefully. Deathblade does have the advantage of playing nearly all creatures that must immediately be answered by RUG. If Deathrite Shaman survives for a few turns, he can soften the damage done by our lands being destroyed, he can gain us life making it difficult for RUG to close the game, and also can just kill them. In this match up we should be very vigilant about graveyards, as removing cards from the RUG palyer's graveyard will keep Nimble Mongoose from getting loose. Removing cards from both graveyards will help keep Tarmogoyf in check. If Deathrite isn't answered he can ruin RUG's plan(s) starting from our turn 1. Stoneforge Mysticing for a Batterskull is another line of play that RUG has a lot of difficulty in dealing with. Post board you should expect some Ancient Grudges and/or Krosan Grips out of the RUG player (especially if you showed them Batterskull). Both Dark Confidant and Geist of Saint Traft are other hard to deal with threats for RUG. Confidant finds more cards with which to answer their fast men while Geist offers a fast clock. Turn 2 Geist of off a Deathrite can actually push us to the beat down deck in the match up.

Engineered Explosives can be brought in to take out Geese and all of their threats. Nihil Spellbomb and other graveyard hate cards can be useful here to keep Geese and Goyfs small.

[Overall: Even (~50/50); Favorable, if game goes long; Unfavorable, if land light hand and/or play into their land destruction]

b.) UWR Delver -

c.) Shardless BUG - Shardless BUG has become another Legacy house as of late. This match up tends to come down to what is actually in play. Both decks run discard and counter magic but these tend to matter less than just resolving creatures, planeswalkers, and removal spells. There seems to be a bit of disagreement within the community as to what role the Deathblade should take in this match up. Deathrite into Geist starts can make us the aggressor very easily; however, Shardless BUG's game plan is typically to be the beat down. Trying to be the traditional control role against this deck isn't the best plan, as many of Shardless BUG's cards generate two-for-ones (see Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, and Hymn to Tourach). With this in mind, what we want to do is get to our "Stage 3" or endgame, before our opponent does. That means casting SFM and cheating in a Batterskull, casting a Jace, and/or just being able to attack with a protected Geist quickly. In addition to these angles of attack, be wary or Deathrite on Deathrite action. Both decks play him and making sure to stack activations correctly is a good way to gain incremental advantages in the match up. Shardless BUG does play Tarmogoyf and as such keeping graveyards in check with our Deathrites can be a big gain over the course of the match.

As far as sideboarding goes, mass removal such as Engineered Explosives and/or Supreme Verdict can help give us an edge if you want to be more controlling. Notion Thief shines in this match up as it nullifies a lot of BUG's cards, including Jace, Strix, Ancestral Vision and Brainstorm. This angle forces removal to be pointed as a Thief instead of a real threat. Additional spot removal is also very strong here.

[Overall: Even (~50/50); this one really comes down to draws and tightness of play]

d.) BUG Tempo-
e.) Elves -
f.) Death and Taxes -
g.) ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) -
h.) Miracle Control -
i.) Sneak and Show -
j.) Omnitell -
k.) Deathblade (mirror) -
l.) Jund -
m.) Maverick -


VII. Additional Information

a.) Major Tournament Reports and Articles

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26176_Deathblade-Rites-Of-Reaping.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26212_Leaving-A-Legacy-I-Am-A-Thief.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26238_Legacy-Weapons-For-SCGBALT.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26275_Addiction.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26365_Hashtag-Game-An-SCGCOL-Legacy-Report-1st.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26495_The-Thousand-Mile-Grind.html

b.) Feature Matches and Versus Videos

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26704_One-Match.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26017_BBD-vs-Cho-Esper-Stoneblade-vs-Merfolk.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26131_AJTV-11-Looking-To-The-Endgame.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26313_Brad-vs-Todd-Junk-Aristocrats-vs-Esper-Deathblade.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26353_Brad-vs-Todd-UB-Tezzeret-vs-Esper-Deathblade.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26435_Brad-vs-Todd-Esper-Deathblade-vs-Omni-Tell.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26601_Gerry-vs-Todd-Shardless-BUG-vs-Esper-Deathblade.html

c.) Additional Deck Lists

Dave Shiels, 3rd; SCG Invitational 7/28/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57833

Dustin Taylor, 4th; SCG Legacy Open 7/28/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57889

Chris Van Meter, 9th; SCG Legacy Open 7/7/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57055

Rudy Briksza, 7th; SCG Legacy Open 6/23/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56759

Brad Nelson, 12th; SCG Legacy Open 6/23/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56768

Michael Washer, 14th; SCG Open 6/23/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56778

Todd Anderson, 1st; SCG Legacy Open 6/16/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56684

Ryan Hovis, 5th; SCG Legacy Open 6/16/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56670

Justin Geary, 10th; SCG Legacy Open 6/16/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56687

Lauren Nolan, 1st; SCG Legacy Open 5/19/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55937

Jack Fogle, 2nd; SCG Legacy Open 5/19/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55931

Brian Braun-Duin, 21st; SCG Legacy Open 5/19/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55930


I will be filling in the rest of the primer of the next few days. I just figured that this archetype should have its own thread.

Sturtzilla
07-07-2013, 12:14 AM
This post is reserved for additional information. Thanks for reading!

death
07-07-2013, 12:25 AM
Great primer dude!

Looking forward to seeing this thread in the DTB section.

Megadeus
07-07-2013, 12:47 AM
Those sideboards seem insane...

(nameless one)
07-07-2013, 01:06 AM
Let's rename this thread as Bastard.dec or at least put it in brackets. This deck is essentially a bastardized version of Stoneblade/Junk/Jund/BUG lists.

Plague Sliver
07-07-2013, 02:50 AM
How is this not in the DTB section?

And stop hatin' :) good deck is good deck.

Sturtzilla
07-07-2013, 10:23 AM
Great primer dude!

Looking forward to seeing this thread in the DTB section.

Thanks for the kind words. I just figured that there should be a thread from the archetype. There has been some discussion of the deck in the Blade Control thread but the consensus there was that this is a new deck. I will be filling out the holes in the primer soon!



Let's rename this thread as Bastard.dec or at least put it in brackets. This deck is essentially a bastardized version of Stoneblade/Junk/Jund/BUG lists.

Sure the deck may combine many successful aspects from other popular archetypes, it has been putting up great results.



How is this not in the DTB section?

And stop hatin' :) good deck is good deck.

I would guess that is because I just posted the short and unfinished version of the primer last night. I am hoping in a few days it will get moved to the DTB section as well.

Lord_Mcdonalds
07-07-2013, 11:25 PM
Although I feel this is still ultimately apart of Blade-Control, this was probably for the best as deathblade is ultimately a more midrange strategy whereas Esper is a more flexible control strategy.

I guess to get some discussion started, let's talk about rules changes, cause that is always fun.

I guess it's no secret that the U-based control mirrors are going to be grindy as hell, and getting an early jace may be even more important, so does that mean Vindicate finds it's way in the main to fight opposing Jace, I'm inclined to think maybe, I've been playing Todd Anderson's list (more or less, I have an extra snapcaster mage, every time I count the deck I end up at either 60-61 cards and have no idea what the extra card actually is, I found it easier to stop questioning it) and my cut would be -1 D. Sphere +1 Vindicate, if I were to do so.

The other thing to address would be jitte, which like jace, is rather important to land in the stoneforge matchups/mirror, I'm assuming that Abrupt Decay will now almost always be in the deck in some number, although that means that the mana base will continue to be terrible without a deathrite involved (unless we start cutting the utilty lands and wastelands)

KobeBryan
07-07-2013, 11:58 PM
I really like dark confidant decks.

The problem I see here is: How comfortable are you guys going into the fourth color just for abrupt decay?

Vandalize
07-08-2013, 12:19 AM
I really like dark confidant decks.

The problem I see here is: How comfortable are you guys going into the fourth color just for abrupt decay?

It does fit well with Deathrite Shaman and makes Engineered Explosives really powerful. But at the cost of an awful manabase, lol.

(nameless one)
07-08-2013, 01:04 AM
I'm not hating on the deck. I just want a catchy name for it.

Picture this conversation at your local FNM:

Dude A: hey, what's buddy playing?
Dude B: I think he's running that bastard deck. He's 3-0 right now.
That annoying 13 year old kid that has a trust fund with Sneak Show deck: my mommy said that's a bad word
Dude A: she just doesn't want you hearing that word because daddy's not around to explain what it means

Higgs
07-08-2013, 05:24 AM
My suggestion would be 4C Fish or Fish Jambalaya. This is a fish deck now, it stopped being a control deck a while ago.

(nameless one)
07-08-2013, 07:07 AM
For the sake if keeping it Hasbro friendly, I like 4c Jambalaya: the fish deck from the Bayous!

Sturtzilla
07-08-2013, 10:56 AM
Although I feel this is still ultimately apart of Blade-Control, this was probably for the best as deathblade is ultimately a more midrange strategy whereas Esper is a more flexible control strategy.

Truth!



I guess to get some discussion started, let's talk about rules changes, cause that is always fun. I guess it's no secret that the U-based control mirrors are going to be grindy as hell, and getting an early Jace may be even more important, so does that mean Vindicate finds it's way in the main to fight opposing Jace, I'm inclined to think maybe.

As far as the Jace-on-Jace action goes (I bet some of you guys are into that kind of thing...), getting the earlier Jace is going to be paramount. Deathrite does give this deck an edge over Esper in that regard. I think some number of Vindicates, Detention Spheres, and/or Oblivion Rings will become more important. I think Vindicate is probably the best option as it is the most flexible. Spell Pierce might make a bit of a comeback here as well. It will also likely become correct in many spots to just play a Jace and Fateseal.



The other thing to address would be Jitte, which like Jace, is rather important to land in the Stoneforge match ups/mirror, I'm assuming that Abrupt Decay will now almost always be in the deck in some number, although that means that the mana base will continue to be terrible without a Deathrite involved (unless we start cutting the utility lands and wastelands)

This just another reason to have more universal removal. Jitte is easier to deal with that a Jace. With your instant speed removal, you can Tempo an opponent who equips and tries to attack. Disenchant and Vindicate are both solid options coming in a close second and third to Abrupt Decay. I would wager that Decay stays in the deck as it is really flexible and deals with a very large swath of the threats that you will encounter. As far as the mana base, that is an area that probably needs some investigation. There is likely a configuration that is more stable that what is currently being played and still offers access to all 4 colors. That is what we may need to figure out!

Sturtzilla
07-08-2013, 10:58 AM
My suggestion would be 4C Fish or Fish Jambalaya. This is a fish deck now, it stopped being a control deck a while ago.


For the sake if keeping it Hasbro friendly, I like 4c Jambalaya: the fish deck from the Bayous!

The deck has an accepted name within the community already. So discussing what to call it is a moot point. Jambalaya is pretty funny though.

blindspotxxx
07-09-2013, 03:18 PM
Finally! A deathblade thread! Keep up the good work :)

Einherjer
07-10-2013, 01:21 AM
So let's go to the first discussion points, shall we?

Dark Confidant vs Geist of Saint Traft

Lately I have seen lists that cut Confidant in favor of Geist. I really cannot understand this move. While Dark Confidant creates CA at pretty much any state of the game Geist seems to be good in about 2 scenarios. 1) OtP, Shaman --> Geist or 2) Sword, Sword, Snappy, Sword --> Geist.
But this are nonreal scenarios. Deathblade is a Midrange/Control-deck- don't wanna get a discussion going whether is is a controldeck or a midrange. (I think it's both). Well, a fast clock is nice, but not Deathblades goal. We want cards that grind out the game. Either by producing cardadvantage or... by producing cardadvantage :D Geist doesn't really do that. Confidant does. Plus Confi is easier castable without Shaman. I'd play Confidant any day of the week over Geist of Saint Traft.

Abrupt Decay

I don't know what landbase your lists are running - but right now I run 1 Tropical 1 Savannah for the Green portion. (Savannah because my Deathblade is way more white than the average). Mainboard I really don't have any place for Abrupt Decay, but there is always the possibility of putting it in the sideboard. The problem is... I wan't this card vs Tempo (and Control, ofc - but discussing only the upsides makes every card good). I really don't want to rely on Deathrite Shaman or one of my 2 wastelandable lands against tempodecks to cast Decay. RUG kills Shaman on sight and BUG can always stall it with their own. What are your experiences with Abrupt Decay against Tempo?

Force of Will

So, play Force of Will MB or SB? I decided not to play it at all. "WHAT?!" may be your first reaction. But let you show my anti-combo-suite main and sideboard, followed by some explanations. Preboard I have 3 Thoughtseize 2 Inquisition of Kozilek 3 Spell Pierce against Combo. Not too good, but not too shabby either. Postboard I add 3 Leyline of Sanctity (great, underrated card), 2-3 Flusterstorms, 2 Ethersworn Canonists, 0-1 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate. Why no Force of Will Sideboard? Because even then the bluecount is not high enough to cast FoW everytime you draw one. I'd rather choose a mix of a diversified hateboard. >cc3 Permanents, Hatebears, Discard, Counters. It's been pretty good to me - though my sideboard is still in a constant flux.


EDIT:


Lingering Souls

Lingering Souls seem to be a relic from the Esperbladetime. But why is this so? Lack of space? Or does this have any strategical reasons I did not understand yet? Because of their great defensive value and the opportunity to outrace an stalling opponent fast I chose to play atleast one single copy mainboard, with 2-3 ones in the Sideboard. They can be brought in versus a variety of decks, from RUG to BUG to Jund to UWx... (all depends on your mainboard/sideboard)

And here is the list I am rocking atm:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Lingering Souls

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Lingering Souls
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Supreme Verdict
2 X - Flusterstorm/Decay/Vindicate/Disenchant/Elspeth/Notion Thief/Clique/Jace/Duress/Toughtseize/Meddling Mage/Geist/Surgical/Extirpate - just anything :) - Just not sure which of those.


What are you experiences on this points?

Greetings

Sturtzilla
07-11-2013, 09:48 AM
Dark Confidant vs Geist of Saint Traft

Lately I have seen lists that cut Confidant in favor of Geist. I really cannot understand this move. While Dark Confidant creates CA at pretty much any state of the game Geist seems to be good in about 2 scenarios. 1) OtP, Shaman --> Geist or 2) Sword, Sword, Snappy, Sword --> Geist.
But this are nonreal scenarios. Deathblade is a Midrange/Control-deck- don't wanna get a discussion going whether is is a controldeck or a midrange. (I think it's both). Well, a fast clock is nice, but not Deathblades goal. We want cards that grind out the game. Either by producing card advantage or... by producing card advantage :D Geist doesn't really do that. Confidant does. Plus Confi is easier castable without Shaman. I'd play Confidant any day of the week over Geist of Saint Traft.

I think this is an issue we will probably be debating for awhile. While Dark Confidant does require an immediate answer due to his ability to generate significant card advantage, I think that your analysis of Geist of Saint Traft isn't exactly spot on. In my experience running both configurations, Geist has been a great way to close games. When pared with an active Jitte or Batterskull, it is game over versus most decks. That being said, Confidant is one color, a cheaper cost, generates card advantage, and can still bring some beats. Both of these cards are great at what they are specifically geared toward. This boils down to probably more of a question of how you want to play the deck and the field you are going to face. For a combo/control heavy meta, Geist shines as he is very hard to remove. In a aggro/midrange meta you will likely gain more through Confidant.



Abrupt Decay

I don't know what landbase your lists are running - but right now I run 1 Tropical 1 Savannah for the Green portion. (Savannah because my Deathblade is way more white than the average). Mainboard I really don't have any place for Abrupt Decay, but there is always the possibility of putting it in the sideboard. The problem is... I want this card vs Tempo (and Control, ofc - but discussing only the upsides makes every card good). I really don't want to rely on Deathrite Shaman or one of my 2 wastelandable lands against tempodecks to cast Decay. RUG kills Shaman on sight and BUG can always stall it with their own. What are your experiences with Abrupt Decay against Tempo?

Admittedly, I have only been playing the deck for a month or so, but I have been pleasantly surprised by the efficacy of Abrupt Decay. The card has been awesome for me, destroying everything from Delvers and Goyfs to Cranial Platings and Seismic Assaults. It is a great catch all answer to a lot of the problematic threats out there. You do have to be kind of careful about fetching out your green sources at the right times... but that is something that I am still trying to figure out.



Force of Will

So, play Force of Will MB or SB? I decided not to play it at all. "WHAT?!" may be your first reaction. But let you show my anti-combo-suite main and sideboard, followed by some explanations. Preboard I have 3 Thoughtseize 2 Inquisition of Kozilek 3 Spell Pierce against Combo. Not too good, but not too shabby either. Postboard I add 3 Leyline of Sanctity (great, underrated card), 2-3 Flusterstorms, 2 Ethersworn Canonists, 0-1 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate. Why no Force of Will Sideboard? Because even then the bluecount is not high enough to cast FoW everytime you draw one. I'd rather choose a mix of a diversified hateboard. >cc3 Permanents, Hatebears, Discard, Counters. It's been pretty good to me - though my sideboard is still in a constant flux.

I have found myself in a few spots where I did not have the second blue card to pitch to FoW. It is a pretty bad feeling too. I think the approach you have put forth of loading up on discard and other disruptive elements is probably fine.



Lingering Souls

Lingering Souls seem to be a relic from the Esperbladetime. But why is this so? Lack of space? Or does this have any strategical reasons I did not understand yet? Because of their great defensive value and the opportunity to outrace an stalling opponent fast I chose to play at least one single copy mainboard, with 2-3 ones in the Sideboard. They can be brought in versus a variety of decks, from RUG to BUG to Jund to UWx... (all depends on your mainboard/sideboard)

I don't have a good answer to this question. I think Souls is a very powerful card and probably deserves some testing in this shell. We have equipment like Esper but have the added advantage of being able to power it out a turn earlier via Deathrite. This sequence seems pretty awesome: Turn 1 fetch into Deathrite. Turn 2 Lingering Souls. This probably deserves some testing. It is definitely a solid sideboard option if you think you will be facing lots of aggro/tempo decks.

KobeBryan
07-16-2013, 01:00 PM
How useful is geist in this deck? Some list run it and some lists don't. In what matchups would you board it in.

Sturtzilla
07-17-2013, 11:30 AM
How useful is geist in this deck? Some lists run it and some lists don't. In what matchups would you board it in.

See the first part of my previous post. Geist is a solid clock that the deck can get online on turn two off of the back of Deathrite. It is a very strong card versus both combo and control. Against combo it gets your opponent dead faster than a lot of the other options the deck has. Against control it is very hard to remove, forcing your opponent to play an effect such as Terminus, Supreme Verdict, and/or Virtue's Ruin to deal with it. Hope that helps!

kingsey
07-19-2013, 12:38 AM
I would be very interested in brewing a list with GoST over Bob. He is fantastic.

Sturtzilla
07-19-2013, 09:40 AM
I would be very interested in brewing a list with GoST over Bob. He is fantastic.

That is the version that I am playing/testing at the moment. I think is is a little more proactive and a bit more aggressive as opposed to the more controlling Confidant role. I think both are competitive but it probably comes down to personal play style and composition of the meta. I would be really interested to hear what your testing results turn out to be.

kingsey
07-19-2013, 10:29 AM
That is the version that I am playing/testing at the moment. I think is is a little more proactive and a bit more aggressive as opposed to the more controlling Confidant role. I think both are competitive but it probably comes down to personal play style and composition of the meta. I would be really interested to hear what your testing results turn out to be.

My play style is normally the aggressor. Mind posting or pm me your list as a ground floor to work with ? I'm playing team America at the moment, but I still love smashing in sfm to get equipments.

I've worked with a bant shell until now to give GoST exalted triggers as a means to boost him.

mike1987
07-19-2013, 12:21 PM
I know there are quite a few variants for deathblade but which version would you guys recommend if my meta has a lot of rug delver, mud and maverick. In short, mana denial decks especially rug delver with their stifles. :mad:

Pdingo
07-19-2013, 05:18 PM
@mike

I think you have anyway a good match up with shaman and a lot lands+ swords and verdict.
When you play correct then you can ignore the stifle(like fetch go).
Geist is good against tempo decks to.

Adryan
07-20-2013, 05:24 AM
Hey I'm playing this deck on Magic Online and it's like Shardless BUG or Jund with Counters. I enjoy it a lot. Anyone tried to play deep 4color and replace SFM with Tarmogoyf? Yes SFM provides equipment and versatility, but without you would have more cardslots that are good against Combo/ Control.

AEnesidem
07-20-2013, 06:00 AM
Hey I'm playing this deck on Magic Online and it's like Shardless BUG or Jund with Counters. I enjoy it a lot. Anyone tried to play deep 4color and replace SFM with Tarmogoyf? Yes SFM provides equipment and versatility, but without you would have more cardslots that are good against Combo/ Control.

Then we would just be playing BUG... The reason white is in this deck is for SFM.

bob2008
07-20-2013, 06:06 PM
Short report on todays tourney

35 Players, 6 rounds
I took first place with 18 points

Matchups:
1-0-1 vs. Deathblade
2-1 vs. Elves!
2-0 vs. Dredge
2-0 vs. RUG
2-0 vs. TES
2-1 vs. Burn

3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dimir Charm

1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Extirpate
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Prosecution
2 Oblivion Ring


Aftermath:
2 Jace felt enough
Did not miss FOW
Dimir Charm is awesome
The deck runs very smooth due to the Basics and Strix – I tried many different configurations to get an edge against RUG –it worked very good ;-)

kingsey
07-21-2013, 06:48 PM
Anyone testing a 'tempo' build. With say giest over bob. With stifle and daze ? I'm unsure where sfm fits into this but a turn 2 giest, with daze backup sounds nice, or even t2 giest and t3 jtms.

.....or I crazy for thinking its possible?

AEnesidem
07-22-2013, 04:19 AM
Anyone testing a 'tempo' build. With say giest over bob. With stifle and daze ? I'm unsure where sfm fits into this but a turn 2 giest, with daze backup sounds nice, or even t2 giest and t3 jtms.

.....or I crazy for thinking its possible?

Seems counterproductive. You put yourself back 1 turn and your curve is too high for these cards. You also can't expect to cat geist and SFM fast and keep mana open for stifle. Besides, all your cards are slow. It would be inferior to UWR delver.

kingsey
07-22-2013, 01:37 PM
Seems counterproductive. You put yourself back 1 turn and your curve is too high for these cards. You also can't expect to cat geist and SFM fast and keep mana open for stifle. Besides, all your cards are slow. It would be inferior to UWR delver.

I made a pile and tested against a buddy over some beers. Played vs jund, UWR stoneblade, and RUg delver.

Games were split, when my pile worked it was awesome, when it lost it was terrible. I admit defeat :smile: I think im going to try and work GoST back into my original shell of exalted triggers in Bant.

But I do have to say my FBB underground seas looked amazing next the the FBB tundras :cry:

blindspotxxx
07-22-2013, 08:26 PM
What is the current optimum list? There are so many variations of this deck floating around lol

AEnesidem
07-23-2013, 05:00 AM
What is the current optimum list? There are so many variations of this deck floating around lol

As with every deck, it depends on your meta.

EtiCarasoft
07-23-2013, 05:05 AM
Right now I think that the optimum list hasn't been found yet, but I think that it depends on your meta also.
This weekend I played the following list at a 92 players tournament finishing 4-3 due to many missplays and some bad matchups:

R1. Death And Taxes (Loss)
R2. 4cc Punishing Loam (Loss)
R3. Miracles (Win)
R4. Jund (Win)
R5. All Spells (Win)
R6. Goblins (Loss)
R7. Lands (Win)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Force of will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Lingering Souls
1 Vindicate

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Karakas
1 Creeping tar pit
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats

2 Supreme veredict
2 Surgical extraction
2 Geist of Saint traft
1 Sword of feast and famine
1 Duress
1 Detention Sphere
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of will
1 Flusterstom
1 Disfigure

Main changes I want to do are:
-1 Tundra +1 Underground
+1 Land, up to 23 (but don't know what to cut)

Zombie
07-23-2013, 05:14 AM
Very interested in what happened in bob's games vs. Elves and TES. Bad pilots, mulligans to oblivion?

Ogh!
07-23-2013, 05:51 AM
Very interested in what happened in bob's games vs. Elves and TES. Bad pilots, mulligans to oblivion?

I can tell you what happened in the TES MU because I was the TES Player. Whether or not I'm a bad pilot, others have to judge. I'm certainly no Bryant Cook type of TES player. Still, I managed to take 2nd in said tournament going 5-1. Usually, I play DDFT, though. So, my TES experience is very limited.

Anyways, in G1 I held a good hand but lost the roll and didn't do anything the whole game because bob resolved 3x IoK during the first 4 turns (1x via Snapcaster Mage). It was a close game, nevertheless. One timely IoK less and I would've been able to resolve Ad Nauseam on a pretty high life total.

G2 was pretty close, too. All I could do was make 14 goblins on turn 2 or 3, calculating a lot and speculating that he doesn't find an on-color land for the Meddling Mage in his hand. Well, he did :). I managed to beat him to 2 life points but he stabilized with 2x Meddling Mage (on CoV and AD) and SFM + Batterskull. Still, I found an Infernal Tutor via Brainstorm and just needed one more draw to go for Ad Nauseam. I blocked his Batterskull with 4 tokens and hoped, he'd just bounce it and vial it in again via SFM. Unfortunately, he did everything right and Clique'd my Infernal at the end of my next draw phase.

I hope this helps and was detailed enough.

Zombie
07-23-2013, 06:21 AM
Fair enough if that's what happened. Was just surprised because his list looks very soft to Storm G1 (good vs. storm postboard tho, IMHO. Looks a lot like what I have with Elves and I'm very comfortable playing that), and because he has so few sweepers vs. Elves.

bob2008
07-23-2013, 06:44 AM
Against Elves the following happened:

Round 1
I scouted his deck beforehand, so I knew what I was up against.
So I kept a strong hand (on the play) of DRS, SFM, D.Charm, Brainstorm and some lands.
T1: Fetch, DRS, T2: SFM to get Jitte, land, go, T3: land, kill a symbiote, go... eot-> cheat Jitte into play to get the party started...

Round 2
I mulled once and kept Bob, Verdict, X and some lands. Unfortunately I found nothing to interact with him in my next draws. He went off on his T4, I could not stop him from doing his thing. At that point I had a S.Verdict and a land in my hand and my board was Bob and three lands...) This situation refreshed my doubts about the Supreme Verdict – I will switch to a cheaper sweeper for the next time!

Round 3
I mull again and keep: Swamp, Iok, Wasteland, Bob, Zealous P. and something -> I would need to find a white mana to have a chance
My Iok takes GSZ (he had a Summoners Pact, a Dryad Arbor, Forest, Quirion Ranger cannot remember the rest. He played the Ranger and passed. I drew no land so I played Wasteland and Bob to increase my chances of hitting a land next turn. He played a Glimpse, some elves, drew some cards, played his Pact (!!!), drew some more cards aaaand fizzeld...Bob showed me the needed white mana source and the Prosecution cleared his board (in response he bounced some dudes which was irrelevant because he died because on his own Pact the next turn)

You asked if the elvesplayer was a bad pilot. I really cannot make a judgement about that. It seemed more or less like he knew what he was doing...

Ogh!
07-23-2013, 06:47 AM
Fair enough if that's what happened. Was just surprised because his list looks very soft to Storm G1 (good vs. storm postboard tho, IMHO. Looks a lot like what I have with Elves and I'm very comfortable playing that), and because he has so few sweepers vs. Elves.

Yeah, I agree. The pre-board list doesn't look very frightening now that I see it. Still, that's MTG. Sometimes your opponent gets what he needs. That is definitely not to say that he just lucked out. bob played very well. He always picked the correct cards with his discard spells and obviously made the right decisions.

Zombie
07-23-2013, 07:19 AM
Against Elves the following happened:

Round 1
I scouted his deck beforehand, so I knew what I was up against.
So I kept a strong hand (on the play) of DRS, SFM, D.Charm, Brainstorm and some lands.
T1: Fetch, DRS, T2: SFM to get Jitte, land, go, T3: land, kill a symbiote, go... eot-> cheat Jitte into play to get the party started...

Round 2
I mulled once and kept Bob, Verdict, X and some lands. Unfortunately I found nothing to interact with him in my next draws. He went off on his T4, I could not stop him from doing his thing. At that point I had a S.Verdict and a land in my hand and my board was Bob and three lands...) This situation refreshed my doubts about the Supreme Verdict – I will switch to a cheaper sweeper for the next time!

Round 3
I mull again and keep: Swamp, Iok, Wasteland, Bob, Zealous P. and something -> I would need to find a white mana to have a chance
My Iok takes GSZ (he had a Summoners Pact, a Dryad Arbor, Forest, Quirion Ranger cannot remember the rest. He played the Ranger and passed. I drew no land so I played Wasteland and Bob to increase my chances of hitting a land next turn. He played a Glimpse, some elves, drew some cards, played his Pact (!!!), drew some more cards aaaand fizzeld...Bob showed me the needed white mana source and the Prosecution cleared his board (in response he bounced some dudes which was irrelevant because he died because on his own Pact the next turn)

You asked if the elvesplayer was a bad pilot. I really cannot make a judgement about that. It seemed more or less like he knew what he was doing...

Playing Summoner's Pact at all is definitely suspect if you ask me, especially vs. Esper postboard (and actually casting it when you're about to fizzle, oh dear. Would spare it for the Pact=>Shaman@Jitte or similar).
I probably would've also mulliganed that G3 hand if I was the Elves player. The G2/3 is often very grindy, and Pact is just really, really poor in those kinds of games.
vs. Esper Elves can do everything better IMHO, but you have to pick a plan and stick to it. You can go over with quick combo, or you can outgrind. Indecision and middle-of-the-road attitude will just mean you're playing pseudo-Esper vs. actual Esper, which is a pretty certain loss.

Your G2 keep was a bit suspect IMHO, would've mulled. Too little action, too late. Undisrupted many Elves builds are relatively solid T3-T4 decks so Verdict just doesn't cut it on the draw.

If you want a faster sweeper, another Persecution or a Perish arre probably your best options. Switching out Bobs for Meddling Mages is probably a good idea when boarding. Naming NO, Visionary ought to bring decent results.

bob2008
07-24-2013, 06:47 AM
@Zombie: thanks for the hint. I will bring in my hatebears against elves next time...

@ all: what is your opinion on Dimir Charm? Has anyone else tested the card so far?

I think it is a nice all round card that can act as additional disruption and removal which is great, especially for those lists without FOW.

Oppinions?

Sturtzilla
07-24-2013, 01:31 PM
@ all: what is your opinion on Dimir Charm? Has anyone else tested the card so far?

I think it is a nice all round card that can act as additional disruption and removal which is great, especially for those lists without FOW.

Opinions?

First of all it is great to see this thread moved to the DTB section. Let's keep pushing this archetype forward!

As far as Dimir Charm is concerned, it like most of the other charms gives us three options, each for a slightly steeper cost than what would be paid for a card with just a single mode. That being said, all of the modes on Dimir Charm can be useful. The first mode counters Miracles, Vindicates, Show and Tells, plenty of combo pieces in Storm decks among others. The second mode kills loads of legacy viable creatures... some would include SCM, SFM, Dark Confidant, non-flipped Delvers, pretty much every non-KotR threat in Maverick as long as there isn't an active Mom... non-active Moms... and many more. The last mode actually can function as two separate modes, in that you can target yourself to dig deeper for answers or to clear land from the top of your deck or you can manipulate the top of your opponent's library to ensure that they cannot flip a delver, cannot Miracle a spell, kill themselves with a Bob, or are just drawing a blank on their next turn. The card is incredibly versatile and even though it may be more mana than any single mode would cost as a stand alone card, the flexibility is awesome. Making two mana shouldn't be too hard with this deck either. I would say that it is worth a shot. It might not be right for your specific meta game but it certainly is a strong option to consider.

bob2008
07-29-2013, 05:16 AM
I would wager that Decay stays in the deck as it is really flexible and deals with a very large swath of the threats that you will encounter. As far as the mana base, that is an area that probably needs some investigation. There is likely a configuration that is more stable that what is currently being played and still offers access to all 4 colors. That is what we may need to figure out!


This weekend I played with 2 Decays MD while still having the 3 basiclands in the deck. It worked out well.
3-0 finish, played against Goblins (2-0), Belcher (2-1) and Death and Taxes (2-0).
As you can imagine against two of those decks the basics were awesome. The D&T player had Thalia and 2 Wastelands by turn 3, while I assembled Plains, Island and Swamp. Felt good...

My manabase was the same as in my previous post but +1 Bayou

3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand

I think this is still a greedy configuration but at least more stable than the “all-nonbasic-manabases” we see so often.... Basically I took out the Karakas and lowered the Wasteland count....

Questions:
Anybody else testing a list with basics? What are you experiences?
How important is Wasteland in this deck? Of course Punishing Fire is an argument... + insane plays with DRS on T1 and T2 but I am still not sure if this is where you want to be with this deck...

Regards,
Bob

Sturtzilla
07-29-2013, 11:01 AM
My manabase was the same as in my previous post but +1 Bayou

3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand

Questions:
Anybody else testing a list with basics? What are you experiences?
How important is Wasteland in this deck? Of course Punishing Fire is an argument... + insane plays with DRS on T1 and T2 but I am still not sure if this is where you want to be with this deck.

I have been a bit curious as to whether or not this deck can function with a few basics in the mana base. Your configuration seems pretty decent. I may have to give it a shot this week. I have not done any testing with basics yet, but it is certainly an area that needs to be explored. Wasteland is probably not essential, but playing it in tandem with Deathrite Shaman is very strong. Being able to remove an opponent's land and still being able to remove it on the following turn to make more mana is a great edge to have. Wasteland does give us some extra ways to interact with decks with lands like Grove of the Burnwillows, Creeping Tar Pit, and Karakas. These may be minor advantages beyond the ability to mana screw an opponent, but they still are upsides.

Shinwei
07-29-2013, 01:26 PM
I used to be completely sold on basic lands over wastelands until I found the matchup against Maverick to be almost unwinnable because I could not kill Maze of Ith.

Sturtzilla
07-30-2013, 10:19 AM
I used to be completely sold on basic lands over wastelands until I found the matchup against Maverick to be almost unwinnable because I could not kill Maze of Ith.

This is a fair point. The meta at my LGS usually has one Aggro Loam deck and occasionally a Lands deck. With that in mind, I think it is worth considering both Wastelands to take out problematic lands (like you have mentioned, Maze of Ith, among others). However these decks both try to Wastelock opposing players. I think this warrants the testing of some number of basics. This also brings up and interesting point... as Deathblade is a deck that both fears and uses Wastelands, maybe we should give Life from the Loam a shot in the sideboard. Being able to recur Wastelands is very powerful in a few match ups. Additionally it could help in the grindy match ups where opponents are trying to deny our land/mana resources. I may give this a try over the next couple weeks as well. Thoughts?

Teluin
07-30-2013, 08:23 PM
What do you guys think about playing 4 Strix over Bob? He guarantees an extra card unless countered (unlike Bob), he flies with equipment, he's sort of creature-removal, and he's FoW fodder.

Bob CAN net you more than 1 card (he can also net you zero), he swings for 2, he only requires 1 coloured mana.

Sturtzilla
07-31-2013, 09:37 AM
What do you guys think about playing 4 Strix over Bob? He guarantees an extra card unless countered (unlike Bob), he flies with equipment, he's sort of creature-removal, and he's FoW fodder.

Bob CAN net you more than 1 card (he can also net you zero), he swings for 2, he only requires 1 coloured mana.

Baleful Strix is a solid card; however, it is not on the same power level as Bob. Strix may allow for some 2-for-1ing, in that it replaces itself and either gets removed or trades up, but Bob requires an immediate answer (a 1-for-1) from your opponent. Unanswered you will begin to get so far ahead on cards that you will likely be able to answer anything that they try to do. I think Strix is a solid card and if you want to try testing him out, go for it. It would be great to hear your results.

Sturtzilla
07-31-2013, 10:25 AM
So I played my Deathblade list that you can find below to a 3-0-1 finish at locals last night. I tested out a 3 basics mana base and also tried out some new sideboard options. So here is my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vindicate
1 Notion Thief
1 Force of Will

Round 1: :bg: Life from the Loam/Pox [2-0]

I won the die roll and led off with a fetch. I wasn't sure what my opponent was playing so I wanted to leave Brainstorm open to hide the good stuff in my hand. He played a swamp and passed. I Thoughtseized him on turn two and still had a land up to be able to Brainstorm. His hand was Hymn, Hymn, and lands. So I took a Hymn and passed. He Hymned me during his turn. I Brainstormed in response hiding a Geist and a Jace. Leaving a bunch of lands and creature removal spells in my hand. He hit a fetch and a Swords. I took my next turn and played Geist. The following turn was a Jace and that was all she wrote for that game.

Sideboarding: -4 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Abrupt Decay, +3 Nihil Spellbomb

Game two turned into more of a grind as my opponent was able to get the Life from the Loam engine online. This made the decision to include 3 basics really awesome as I wasn't ever really under the threat of being Wasted out of the game. This game went to the end of the round as he had multiple factories to block my small value guys with. The game ended with my Jace at 9 loyalty and double Deathrite removing spells from his graveyard.


Round 2: Bant Slivers [2-0]

I won the die roll and got off to a Deathrite start. My opponent played land and passed. I was able to fetch and play a Stoneforge finding Batterskull. My opponent's next turn was fetchland (Trop and Tundra) and Predatory Sliver. I tapped my Deathrite and removed his fetch to Swords the guy at his EoT. I played a land and passed. He made a land and a Winged Sliver... which seems suboptimal when compared to Galerider Sliver. I made an EoT Batterskull. I began to bring the beats for 4 lifelinked over the next few turns while my opponent swung back with a 1/1 flyer. Gamed ended with Deathrite doming him after I made it to like +30 life.

Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Inquisition of Kozilek, -3 Jace, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Vindicate, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Disenchant, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Force of Will; I was really kicking myself for cutting the Engineered Explosives and Verdicts from my board at this point.

Game 2 I was on the draw and kept double fetch, double Deathrite, Brainstorm, Geist, and Swords. Turn one for my opponent is land and pass. Mine was fetch, find USea, and cast Deathrite. He plays a second land and plays a Predatory Sliver. I land a turn two Geist. He plays a third land, casts a Muscle Sliver and attacks for 3. I gladly take the 3. My next turn was Swords on the untapped Sliver and crash for 6. I second main phased a Brainstorm which found me a fetch and an Abrupt Decay. So I played the land for turn and put the Decay in hand to kill the next threat. The game ended up going fairly deep... I got him pretty low and was able to Deathrite him out after a suicidal Geist attack a few turns later.


Round 3: Affinity [2-1]

This match went basically the same as the Slivers match. I was able to get two games where I had a better board position and was able to attack with Geist/Deathrite for enough to win. Game two I top decked land for 4-5 straight turns before my opponent managed to find an Etched Champion to start killing me with. Our game three was pretty awesome as we were both being hyper aggressive... at one point we were each at one life. He did not have the Galvanic Blast to kill me. I did have double Deathrite and was doming him and gaining life each turn. This was enough to get me the win.

Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Inquisition of Kozilek, -3 Jace, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Vindicate, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Disenchant, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Force of Will; Why did I cut those Engineered Explosives and Verdicts from my board?


Round 4: Painter Combo

As we were the only 3-0's, my opponent and I decided to split the prize pool. We both ended up taking $40 in store credit. Not bad for an evening of slinging Legacy.

Overall, I think the maindeck is pretty solid. The basics were pretty nice in the Pox/Loam match up. I did feel that a lot of the time I was drawing just land after land after land. This could have been an artifact of poor shuffling or it might be right to cut a land from the deck. I was running the 24 land configuration. Maybe I cut a fetch and add a second Ponder. What do you guys think about that?

As far as the sideboard goes, I really misjudged where the meta would be this week at my lgs. Next week I will be packing some Engineered Explosives and Supreme Verdicts. I think that would help with all of the non-Pox matches I had last night. I am continually underwhelmed by the Notion Thief in the sideboard. I realize that it is very strong versus combo decks that need to do a lot of manipulation, but I have yet to bring it in and have it change the course of a game. Anyway thanks for reading! If you have any suggestions please let me know!

bob2008
08-01-2013, 04:56 AM
Thanks for your report. Very nice read.
Glad to hear that the basics served you well.
I like the basics too - especially because I often face RUG on the other side of the table.
Think you can easily go down to 23 lands. Given that you want at least 2 wastelands I would suggest cutting the Tar Pit ... Even if it is a great card it really shines against opposing Walkers... Hmmm, Walkers.... difficult...

@ N.Thief: So far I have not been impressed with Notion Thief either – sometimes there is just no window to play him... A few weeks ago Shardless BUG was really cold to him but now most lists bring in Golgari Charm and /or Disfigure so they can handle him easily... Anyway, I will continue to test him. If Jace wars become a real issue it might even be justified to play 2 copies...

@ B.Strix: I love this card – IMHO 2-3 copies should be somewhere in the 75... No matter if you play Bob or GoST

Sturtzilla
08-01-2013, 10:28 AM
Glad to hear that the basics served you well. I like the basics too - especially because I often face RUG on the other side of the table.
Think you can easily go down to 23 lands. Given that you want at least 2 wastelands I would suggest cutting the Tar Pit ... Even if it is a great card it really shines against opposing Walkers... Hmmm, Walkers.... difficult...

I think the cut down to 23 lands will be fine. I was leaning more towards cutting a fetch land. The Wastes can really help out against problematic lands, just help you set back opponents, and are great in tandem with Deathrite. As for the Tar Pit I haven't been real impressed with it. Although I have not had to face many mirror matches or games with lots of walkers. So I think I may leave it in for the time being.



@ N.Thief: So far I have not been impressed with Notion Thief either – sometimes there is just no window to play him... A few weeks ago Shardless BUG was really cold to him but now most lists bring in Golgari Charm and /or Disfigure so they can handle him easily... Anyway, I will continue to test him. If Jace wars become a real issue it might even be justified to play 2 copies...

I have found that as a 1-of, I don't find him when I want him. Also to be able to realistically play him, you want a turn 1-2 Deathrite so you can flash him in a turn early. Every time I have cast him, he has been a 3/1 body with basically no text. Sometimes he does draw out counters or removal which is good. The few times I have had him stick in play, his text has been irrelevant. I am not sure on him, but I will test him out for another week or two.

learntolove6
08-05-2013, 08:57 PM
So I have decided to play deathblade because stoneblade is awesome, and so is deathrite shaman. Here is what i'll be testing:

4 Stoneforge
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of St. Dude
3 Jace the Mind Dude

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
1 Vindicate
2 Lingering Souls
1 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
9 Fetchlands
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Wasteland

I might be wrong, but Lingering Souls is just such a good card that I can't imagine cutting it. It gives the deck so much reach against every deck trying to do fair things, and helps Stoneblade attack from a different angle, while pressure planeswalkers (Todd Anderson mentioned this deck suffers from the new walker rule, and I think Souls will help that). The Split between that and Geist is a bit of hedging, as they're both powerful in different contexts, and the game you're playing can sort of be shaped around that. I want to find the space for the 3rd snapcaster, but I don't want to overload my 3 drop spot, and i'm not sure what to cut. Engineered Explosives and Vindicate are just an out to the weird things that come up, and EE always does work for me. AS for the lands, i'm only running 22 because that's what stoneblade/shardless bug runs. It's possible that it's wrong, but it works in those decks and it's the best frame of reference I have, so i'll see where it takes me. Basics are awesome, so that's that.

Any input? Is this list sub-optimal?

Secretly.A.Bee
08-10-2013, 05:24 PM
@ Sturtzilla: I love your list. I have been testing it, so far I think I am 3 cards different than you, but it plays like a dream. I play a Supreme Verdict and an EE main, as well as only 23 lands and it's been epic. I'm sticking to this list and I think it's actually really close to being optimal. People shouldn't be afraid of a 4-c manabase, it's not insanely greedy. Sure, recurring wastes are probably the end of my winning, but I highly doubt that it's because it's a 4-c list. My 2 green duals would be another basic Island and a Karakas if I didn't go for the 4-c splash, and that really doesn't do a lot in the recurring waste scenario. Props to the list.

-ABC

the_ob3lisk
08-14-2013, 10:08 AM
What is everyone's line of attack on sideboard options against turbo eldrazi? I have a few local players sporting it and it seems like a near impossible match-up for deathblade :eek:

mike1987
08-14-2013, 12:31 PM
I have been playing the bob variant over geist. How important do you guys value FOW in the main?(dont really wanna flip a FOW to bob) My meta seldom has combo. More of miracles, shardless bug and tempo decks.

Megadeus
08-14-2013, 01:42 PM
What is everyone's line of attack on sideboard options against turbo eldrazi? I have a few local players sporting it and it seems like a near impossible match-up for deathblade :eek:

More wastelands, maybe surgical to hit clouposts? Post is just naturally very good vs most other fair decks.
They are a bit soft to wasteland which is why they run MB Pithing Needle.

blindspotxxx
08-14-2013, 08:30 PM
What is everyone's line of attack on sideboard options against turbo eldrazi? I have a few local players sporting it and it seems like a near impossible match-up for deathblade :eek:

It's your bad matchup :) You shouldn't be preparing for this match up as it is a minority. However if it runs rampant then major changes to the deck must be done or play another deck

Barbed Blightning
08-23-2013, 01:02 AM
What is everyone's line of attack on sideboard options against turbo eldrazi? I have a few local players sporting it and it seems like a near impossible match-up for deathblade :eek:

During my BUG Delver days, sinkhole/ surgical/hymn was brutal against turbo. Just a thought

Sturtzilla
08-23-2013, 10:36 AM
So I have decided to play deathblade because stoneblade is awesome, and so is deathrite shaman. Any input? Is this list sub-optimal?

I think the list looks like a fine starting point. I will say that you probably don't want 3 Snapcasters. I started with 2 main and 1 boarded a ways back. That number just shrank overtime. Two is fine but don't be afraid to cut him. I think there is a lot of hedging in your list. Do you want to be aggressive or controlling? Also don't forget about Abrupt Decay. It is baller. Give you list a few runs and just start tweaking it. That is really the best way to do things.



@ Sturtzilla: I love your list. I have been testing it, so far I think I am 3 cards different than you, but it plays like a dream. I play a Supreme Verdict and an EE main, as well as only 23 lands and it's been epic. I'm sticking to this list and I think it's actually really close to being optimal. People shouldn't be afraid of a 4-c manabase, it's not insanely greedy. Sure, recurring wastes are probably the end of my winning, but I highly doubt that it's because it's a 4-c list. My 2 green duals would be another basic Island and a Karakas if I didn't go for the 4-c splash, and that really doesn't do a lot in the recurring waste scenario. Props to the list.

-ABC

Thank you for the kind words but I am probably not the one who deserves the credit. The list I posed a bit ago [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26350-DTB-DeathBlade&p=740952&viewfull=1#post740952] was a hybridization between Anderson's most recent list and some comments that Bob2008 had suggested to make the deck a bit more resilient to Wastelands. So I guess it has been a community effort. I am glad the deck is working well for you. I think the mass removal main is a bit counter productive as we play a lot of creatures, but if you meta is very aggro heavy, could be the correct call.



I have been playing the bob variant over geist. How important do you guys value FOW in the main?(dont really wanna flip a FOW to bob) My meta seldom has combo. More of miracles, shardless bug and tempo decks.

When I was running Bob, I would guess the average damage I would take from him before winning (or being way ahead on cards) or he would be killed was 3-4. I never flipped a FoW. I don't think it is worth worrying about. The majority of the deck is 1-2 converted and we play a lot of lands... so you aren't going to be doming yourself that bad. And if you flip a FoW once in awhile, that would be the cost of greatness.



What is everyone's line of attack on sideboard options against turbo eldrazi? I have a few local players sporting it and it seems like a near impossible match-up for deathblade :eek:

This is not a matchup that I have much experience with. I would agree that you shouldn't really devote too much time and/or sideboard space to it as it is a fringe deck. Disrupting their mana base would be my first idea. So possibly running a Life from the Loam or two to chain Wastelands would be decent. I also like the Surgical Extraction idea here.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 04:27 AM
Well, at the risk of being strewn across the *message* board, I am going to share my list. It's tuned to my metagame, again, IT'S TUNED TO MY METAGAME, which happens to be LOTS of Stoneforge, but here it is:

Creatures: 12
4 DRS
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 V. Clique
4 Geist of St. Traft

Spells: 26
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Eplosives
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Abrupt Decay

Land: 22
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 15
2 V. Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 S. Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Anything you see that seems amiss should be noted. Let me know if you disagree with any of my choices, but I haven't lost for many, many matches other than against Omni-Tell, and that's a matchup I do feel it's okay to lose to, however frustrated I get. It's my worst matchup, and I know it.

-ABC

AEnesidem
08-24-2013, 04:48 AM
Well, at the risk of being strewn across the *message* board, I am going to share my list. It's tuned to my metagame, again, IT'S TUNED TO MY METAGAME, which happens to be LOTS of Stoneforge, but here it is:

Creatures: 12
4 DRS
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 V. Clique
4 Geist of St. Traft

Spells: 26
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Eplosives
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Abrupt Decay

Land: 22
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 15
2 V. Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 S. Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Anything you see that seems amiss should be noted. Let me know if you disagree with any of my choices, but I haven't lost for many, many matches other than against Omni-Tell, and that's a matchup I do feel it's okay to lose to, however frustrated I get. It's my worst matchup, and I know it.

-ABC

If there is so much SFM in your meta, why remove a copy of your own and lower your discard spells? Everything that matters is that you resolve your equipment first. You want to be the first to drop sfm and protect it. Discard picks their equipment out of hand when they fetch it, so wjhy would you lower it. The 1 thoughtseize/inquisition split really seems totally random and quite useless.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 04:59 AM
I lowered the Stoneforge count to play a second Pierce, because I don't care if they tutor up an equipment as long as I can counter it. I also don't care that they have a stoneforge in play 'cause I just kill it so I can counter their equipment and get on with winning. I would much rather deal with the equipment than race the equipment. As for my discard "lowering", I never lowered it. I've only ever run 2x discard spells in the main. As for the split, IDK about you, but tossing a fifth of my life total kinda sucks, but discarding their Stoneforge is a plus. Therefore, the split. Any real advise on what you (Specifically) would change, or are your criticisms without reason? That's what all the criticism on this site lacks; reason.

-ABC

Lemnear
08-24-2013, 05:14 AM
Your plan is really to have StoP + Spell Pierce to get rid of a Batterskull instead of just discarding it or SFM before your opponent can play them? Wut?

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 06:36 AM
Any real advise on what you (Specifically) would change, or are your criticisms without reason? That's what all the criticism on this site lacks; reason.



Lemnear, now you are trolling in yet another thread. Also, some of your storm scenarios are based on even less. I play the matchup a LOT and I have that on my side,so unless you have something useful to say, please stop posting useless garble.

-ABC

Einherjer
08-24-2013, 07:37 AM
How to deal with Stoneforge Mystic?

1) Counter it or answer it in before --> Thoughtseize, Spell Snare, Inquisition of Kozilek - Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those
2) Kill it on fucking sight --> Swords to Plowshares, Disfigue, Lightning Bolt - Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those
3) Have your own while hindering your opponent's --> Alot of own Mystics, Spell Pierces, Swords to Plowshares - Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those

You don't play the full set of Stoneforge Mystics, you play just a few Discardspells, and you don't overload on removal. You don't even have Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those few spells you actually have to deal with them. Tell me, dear Sir, how do you handle a Stoneforge Mystic?

EDIT: You don't even have Vendilion Clique or Lingering Souls to hinder or stall the opposing Batterskull.


Greetings

Lemnear
08-24-2013, 07:45 AM
Lemnear, now you are trolling in yet another thread. Also, some of your storm scenarios are based on even less. I play the matchup a LOT and I have that on my side,so unless you have something useful to say, please stop posting useless garble.

-ABC

Excuse me? Isn't the main Feature of Esperblade lists to play T1 discard (stripping defense, counter, etc.) into a T2 SFM and so being faster than needing to have 3 mana to resolve a protected SFM via Spell Pierce?

If your meta is SFM-infested, discarding your opponents copies or, in case of a topdecked SFM, targeting the Equipment with your discard is more resource-friendly than removing SFM afterwards while countering the Equipment.

Try thinking about what I did say, before before throwing out my objection to your gameplan. Instantly calling me a troll, if I critique your 2-for-1 in terms of StoP+Spell Pierce vs. SFM is sure the Base of a healthy discussion.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 08:13 AM
Excuse me? Isn't the main Feature of Esperblade lists to play T1 discard (stripping defense, counter, etc.) into a T2 SFM and so being faster than needing to have 3 mana to resolve a protected SFM via Spell Pierce?


No, I prefer the turn one fetch into DRS, turn 2 Geist. It's quite the play, at least against the Stoneforge mirror. Try it, you may like it. As to "throwing out" your so-called advice, I didn't see any. Only a cocky, quick quip that pulled a single card selection into question, and moved into attacking a strategy that I didn't even mention, let alone infer. I merely posted my current decklist and asked for input on card choices, not for you to put words in my mouth, ignore the full list and move on. This is the list I play. I play against JunkBlade, TokenBlade (BW Sorin/Elspeth), and a R/W Mystic build that's it's own monster (To mention the most devestating ones at least). I lack in removal where they do not (Vindicates galore and then other removal). With that in mind, I stick to fighting the *real* threats and try to win quickly before they come online. Nothing I have other than counters and a single T-Seize (2 is no better, I tried that) can deal with a Batterskull-Once that resolves, it's a race, and not one I win often. It's impeccably difficult to win if their threats stick. Hence I would rather not waste my time weakly attacking their hand and they recover in 1-2 draws (and D. Confidants with tops), and then get overwhelmed by their permanent-based gameplan that often includes Lingering Souls. I mean, what are you gonna do, discard that? It doesn't do much except give them a tempo boost.

This game also has the random element to it, and there are many more things I would rather see in my opening hand than a discard spell against the mirror, but I believe the paragraph above indicates this. Discard is more for the unfair matchup and combo matchup than anything, hence the 2 extra discard spells in the side.

-ABC

Lemnear
08-24-2013, 08:24 AM
I did not miss DRS into Geist which is an obvious focus being a 4-off. I just wonder why you don't support the duality of early plays.

Don't you often draw the short end in those SFM->B.skull vs. Geist battles?

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 08:59 AM
Well sure, but that's where smart mulliganing meets intelligent decisions and foresight. Not saying I win every game, as that's not a likely scenario or the truth, but I do well with it. I do support the duality of early plays, but I have yet to see where a single copy of SFM has cost me a match. It may have cost me a game, but I don't feel it has. I see one when I need it so far. Man, I have never seen a single card be the topic of such a debate anywhere other than storm...Why is 3x Stoneforge such a reach for you? If you look at the list overall, it's basically a swap for a Clique; doesn't feel like a power-trade. Ever brainstorm into equipment and have to toss them back because otherwise your SFM is a Squire?

-ABC

Dzra
08-24-2013, 09:48 AM
Well, just on general principle, I'd say that more Thoughtseize, Cliques, and Abrupt Decays would be better against a lot of SFM decks. Some Lingering Souls is also great against a lot of removal and opposing discard. Misdirection and EE are weak against SFM. Thoughtseize is an aggressive card, Spell Pierce forces you to slow your game down. T1 Deathrite, followed by T2 Wasteland/Thoughtseize + SFM is probably one of this deck's strongest plays. Geist is great, but the ground can easily be clogged for him. (You probably should consider SoFF over Jitte for this reason.) Supreme Verdict feels like a better SB card, but the meta can dictate that.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 10:24 AM
Okay, so what would you fellas suggest to be done to my list? I really am against dropping a Geist, but I may if it's warranted and solid reasons are supplied. I don't play the EE for the mirror specifically, but it's a solid card against tokens and TONS of other stuff. In my meta, I can't recall a time it felt like a dead draw. Misdirection is for discard. Hymn and other targeted discard is huge in the mirror. If I can MisD a single Hymn back at my opponent, it turns the game. I posted my list and asked for help; I am open for actual changes to the list. Please, I value the constructive input. Thanks.

-ABC

EDIT: @ Dzra: Correct. My game gets better post-board (2x A. Decay, 2x Vendilion Clique, 2x Discard although I haven't been boarding that in, cliques are 50/50 on my sideboarding it in for the mirror). I'm not trying to tank my other matchups by building strictly to beat the mirror. I do have a gauntlet run with a couple buddies today and would like to test an updated list if that's what you guys feel is a good idea.

Lemnear
08-24-2013, 10:40 AM
Well sure, but that's where smart mulliganing meets intelligent decisions and foresight. Not saying I win every game, as that's not a likely scenario or the truth, but I do well with it. I do support the duality of early plays, but I have yet to see where a single copy of SFM has cost me a match. It may have cost me a game, but I don't feel it has. I see one when I need it so far. Man, I have never seen a single card be the topic of such a debate anywhere other than storm...Why is 3x Stoneforge such a reach for you? If you look at the list overall, it's basically a swap for a Clique; doesn't feel like a power-trade. Ever brainstorm into equipment and have to toss them back because otherwise your SFM is a Squire?

-ABC

I have no data or testing results to comment on 4/4, 4/3, 3/3 Splits between SFM and Geist and that wasn't my aim.

I was wondering how 2 Spell Pierce, Misdirection and 2 Discard-Spells perform in regards to the "stock" 6-Discard-lists I have seen and played against in the past and I was told about how important the T1 discard is in the meta to stick T2 Bob, SFM, etc.

Dzra
08-24-2013, 10:49 AM
I usually try to minimize one-of "answer cards" that you can't tutor for, so that's why I was looking more at those for possible cuts. One-of Clique is fine because it's proactive and never really dead. Personally, I'd use those slots plus maybe the 4th Geist to add a 2nd Thoughtseize, 4th SFM, and a 2nd Abrupt Decay. You can make yourself even more proactive by cutting Spell Pierce for some Lingering Souls, but that depends on if you are worried about combo or not. I would rather have a Snapcaster than a Supreme Verdict MD in this deck, but like I said that's somewhat meta-based.

Oh and also, I'd definitely recommend trying the SoFF MD over Jitte. Unless you expect Elves or Goblins, I like the swords better for Geist.

AEnesidem
08-24-2013, 11:08 AM
Okay, so what would you fellas suggest to be done to my list? I really am against dropping a Geist, but I may if it's warranted and solid reasons are supplied. I don't play the EE for the mirror specifically, but it's a solid card against tokens and TONS of other stuff. In my meta, I can't recall a time it felt like a dead draw. Misdirection is for discard. Hymn and other targeted discard is huge in the mirror. If I can MisD a single Hymn back at my opponent, it turns the game. I posted my list and asked for help; I am open for actual changes to the list. Please, I value the constructive input. Thanks.

-ABC

EDIT: @ Dzra: Correct. My game gets better post-board (2x A. Decay, 2x Vendilion Clique, 2x Discard although I haven't been boarding that in, cliques are 50/50 on my sideboarding it in for the mirror). I'm not trying to tank my other matchups by building strictly to beat the mirror. I do have a gauntlet run with a couple buddies today and would like to test an updated list if that's what you guys feel is a good idea.

I find it funny how you criticize us while you are clearly the one with an unusual train of thought. Not to be rude but if you want a healthy conversation try understanding why people criticize you and refrain from commenting on the community's ability to discuss.

My criticism wasn't without reason, i was just baffled by your decisions. Here's how you win the SFM mirror: You make sure you resolve your SFM first and get batterskull or jitte online and try to stop them from doing so. What do you need to do that? a maximum of SFM, removal, discard spells and eventually counters. You seem to have done the opposite.
With deathblade it is even more so the case because you don't play a reactive deck, there's no real way for you to come back from behind like esperblade can. You need to start with the advantage and keep it there. Starting with deathrite and geist is good but you want to maximize those strong openings so max out your SFM.
Now, why do i find your choice of discard spells weird. Why do you run discard spells? You want to either start out with them and screw their initial plan or you want to pick their bombs away before they can play them. If you run 1 of each, what is the reason of their inclusion? the chances you open with one are minimal and only one of the 2 can take care of a jace or batterskull. Some cards are good as one-of's like supreme verdict and vindicate because they are a specific answer that is needed in some cases. Discard spells, however, contribute to your gameplan of dropping stronger bombs than your opponent by stripping theirs away.

My problem with E.E. in this deck is that it's too slow. It eats your precious time and mana while you should be dropping good cards on the board and overwhelming your opponent. I haven't ever felt the need for it either. You are better off having some snapcaster mages as extra removal and bodies for your equipment. I also don't like your maindeck Supreme verdict. Your deck wants to develop the board. Why would you play a card that whipes your own cards away and will be dead most of the time? It's a good sideboard card against certain decks but again this is not a reactive deck like esperblade.

there's my "reason"

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 03:40 PM
Thank you for including explanations behind your choices and ideas. That's how people learn. Just because I win often in the mirror doesn't necessarily mean I am doing it to the best of my deck's ability, or my ability. I want to be the best player I can be, but I can't learn if there aren't reasons, only short, one to two sentence posts that tell me "Heh, that's what you are doing?! Stupid." Instead of offering solid reasoning, or at least nicely explaining why you think the way you do. I am, and I'm sure that at least a few others are, grateful for the players who don't condescend, but rather lend a hand to actually assist other players in a kind way.

So as to my metagame, token heavy as it is, instead of a full set of A. Decay split between the board and the main, would a single Decay and a single Maelstrom Pulse happen to be a good choice in the SB? What's the concensus on Decay vs. Vindicate? Vindicate, while clunkier and more expensive, does hit a Batterskull that resolved//stoneforge'd in, PW'ers, and more. Very useful card, but I fear it's falling out of favor.

Engineered Explosives is used strictly because of tokens in my meta. Sorin, Elspeth, L. Souls, and more are wiped for (2). Seems not so slow. Also, it's a catch-all, and I can get up to Sunburst 5 in my build. Seems so multi-faceted it's a shame not to play it. Yeah, it can blow my stuff up too. So what? It's not like you don't get to choose when to blow it up.

Also, is Surgical Extraction a better choice than Nihil Spellbomb? I don't know what one fills the 'yard hate slots better. Also, how many SB slots do you guys dedicate to GY hate? I only have 2x at the moment. Is that enough?

I apologize if I come off rude, I try not to. Just not very good at it. I value your opinions, that's why I get so frustrated when I see posts that hold no intellectual value, only the "you are doing it wrong" mentality.

Thanks for the continued help and tolerance. Lemnear, I'm sorry I was rude to you.

-ABC

Dzra
08-24-2013, 07:19 PM
I think a lot of card selection comes down to knowing your role and your gameplan. By adding Deathrite and Geist (or Bob), you are committing to a more aggressive gameplan than UW and Esper Blade decks. You want to sculpt your game around resolving and protecting a Geist or SFM. Esper can buy time with more Lingering Souls and Snapcasters. You want to take the advantage early with aggression (discard, SFM, Geist) and kill them before they can recover. Jace is more of a midranged card for you. When Deathblade Brainstorms, more often you are looking for pressure than answers. As opposed to Esper, where Souls and Batterskull protect a Jace while you Brainstorm them out of threats.

I prefer two Abrupt Decay to a Vindicate split (you could run all three). Abrupt Decay being uncounterable and Instant are both very nice. You can easily solve Batterskull battles by running SoFF (along with Clique and Thoughtseize).

Secretly.A.Bee
08-24-2013, 09:03 PM
So, after a long day of testing (mostly against Jund, not Punishing Jund) and keeping an open mind while keeping in mind what has been said in the last page or so, and talking with my test-buddy, my list has changed to a much more standard version. I would like to specifically thank Dzra and Lemnear for their input and patience with me, it helped a lot and I am a lot clearer on how/what to play. I still have some questions, but will wait until the end of my post to ask. The deck does still have a couple choices that are meta-dependent, but they will also change to a more standard configuration when I go to a more open/unknown meta.

Creatures: 12
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic (Went back up, not happy about it, but can't drop it until I test the mirror. Just feel like I would like to see Geist more...)
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Vendilion Clique

Spells: 26
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Can't bring myself to drop it.)
1x Sword of Feast and Famine (AWESOME!!! Won me so many games!)
1x Batterskull
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Inquisition of Kozilek ("I told you so's" are in order)
3x Thoughtseize (See IoK's notation^^^)
3x Jace, tMS
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

Land: 22
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Island
1x Karakas
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand

SIDEBOARD: 15
1x Maelstrom Pulse (1x Vindicate in an open meta)
1x Force of Will
2x Engineered Explosives (2x Vendilion Clique in an open meta)
2x Flusterstorm
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of Sanctity

So I do have a few more questions:

1.) Turn 1 on the play: I have a black mana source and a DRS and a Discard spell. I don't know what they are playing. I assume the discard spell is correct. Just need someone to let me know if I'm correct.

2.) What's the reason for the two Wastelands in the deck? I went ahead and dropped them for a rock-solid mana base. So far so good. I just need to know why Wasteland is a choice made by so many. What am I missing? Is my choice sub-par?

3.) Why is Jitte getting the cut? It's still awesome. I don't understand this decision.

4.) Is 15 blue spells too few for FoW/MisD? It is low imo. It works if I NEED it to, but otherwise I'm pretty reserved about countering anything. I'm not used to this tight of a ship, if you will.

Thanks for everything, I appreciate it. I'm sure I will have more questions in the near future, but for now that is all.

-ABC

Einherjer
08-25-2013, 02:17 AM
This list looks way better, just a few things I'd like to add. When playing Esperblade I think it is correct to start with 4 Thoughtseize. Add as many Inquisitions, but start with 4 Thoughtseize. You aren't even playing Dark Confidants, so I think it's very safe to play the full set. Just grabbing everything is too good.
I know it's a trend to play 3 Force 1 Misdirection. I just can't get behind... What holds the insurance, that you draw your Force of Wills against Combo and the 1-of Misdirection against Decay.dec? Correct, nothing.
In addition to this points I'd like to add that you probably don't need the forest, especially when beein played alongside Tar Pit and Karakas.

1) In a more traditional Deathblade.deck I'd be playing Shaman. Why? Here is my reasoning, might still be missing something:
Shaman is better against Midrange, Control and Tempo, while being worse than combo. There probably is no meta where Combo is being played more than the other 3.
Plus, you have the ability of still play your Discardspell T2 alongside Mystic/Bob, which is better than playing t1 shaman t2 cc2-dude simply due to the fact, that you got your Shaman in play already.
Most Combodecks won't kill you T1. Shaman's value decreases quite a bit in the Mirror, if played T2 instead of T1.

2) Playing no Wastelands is totally fine, and my choice too. Why would one play Wasteland? Well, those playing Wasteland see Deathblade from the Midrange-angle, not from the Control's. They plan on T1ing Shaman, Then cc2-Bomb (Mystic, Bob) and Wasteland your land for maximum value. I think playing none is totally fine.

3) I don't know who would cut Jitte. I couldn't think of any valid reasoning, really.

4) 15 is very low, especially with the 3/1 split of Force and Misdirection. . The lowest I went while being victorious was at GP Strasbourg with Miracles was playing 4 Force of Will with a total blue count of 19. Snapcaster Mage could improve your blue count, just as a thought.

Greetings

Dzra
08-25-2013, 03:18 AM
1.) Turn 1 on the play: I have a black mana source and a DRS and a Discard spell. I don't know what they are playing. I assume the discard spell is correct. Just need someone to let me know if I'm correct.

Personally I'd rather play the discard as it lets me have a better idea what is going on. Even against non-combo, you don't want to walk into a Lightening Bolt or Rest in Peace. Playing Deathrite first does have a lot of merit though, but I still prefer discard (unless perhaps you have a double Deathrite hand then Deathrite is almost certainly correct.)


2.) What's the reason for the two Wastelands in the deck? I went ahead and dropped them for a rock-solid mana base. So far so good. I just need to know why Wasteland is a choice made by so many. What am I missing? Is my choice sub-par?

Wasteland is mainly there for two reasons... Problem lands like Maze of Ith or Grove and because it really shines with the acceleration provided by Deathrite. 90% of the time I'd hold them exclusively for utility land destruction unless you know they are already mana screwed (either from discard or seeing them miss land drops).

Speaking of mana, I'd definitely cut the basic Forest and probably be inclined to cut one of the Islands. Drop the Windswept and add another Misty Rainforest. I'd definitely want at least 2 Underground Seas and Flooded is your best fetch since it gets all your duals.


3.) Why is Jitte getting the cut? It's still awesome. I don't understand this decision.

I dislike running more than two equipment, but I like SoFF or SoFI for Geist. If you aren't having trouble with clunkiness then you can still go with three, but cutting one of the two to the SB gives you more room for Blue cards.


4.) Is 15 blue spells too few for FoW/MisD? It is low imo. It works if I NEED it to, but otherwise I'm pretty reserved about countering anything. I'm not used to this tight of a ship, if you will.

15 is pretty low. I still don't terribly care for the Misdirection (kind of random, hard to find, doesn't play well with Sanctity). I'd try to squeeze in another Blue card or two in the form of Ponder and/or Snapcaster. I'd look at 1-2 IoK the third equipment, and Misdirection for best possible cuts. (Though I admit... I might like Misdirection in this deck over Leylines, possibly some in the SB would make it less random but you will be hungrier for Blue cards.)

Lemnear
08-25-2013, 05:03 AM
The reasoning for Swords over Jitte is that Geist/Bob/SCM/SFM in traditional Deathblade lists have no evasion and are very fragile in combat. The instant +2/+2 and protection via equippin' changes this in a way Jitte cannot (it's not unusual that you lose the first creature in the process to gain the first Jitte-counters). Jitte only real shines if you face a lot of 1-toughness-creatures like you do against Elves, Bob, Lingering Souls, D&T, etc. but the moment you play against DRS, SFM or other tougher Bastards, Swords are to prefer.

The decision between Fire&Ice and Feast&Famine is a bit more tricky. Shooting potential blockers or forcing your opponent to block to prevent a free Shock can be devastating once you have control over the battlefield, but the Protection of Feast&Famine is awesome in the metagame and often acts as "shadow" within some metas which is an insane advantage if you run Geists aside from ignoring Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf all day. Thus the deck is pretty mana-intense, the untap-ability comes in handy to cast discard, swing for damage and follow up with Jace. I just want to add the removal-suit Jace + SoFF is: Bounce a creature of your opponent, swing with a creature holding SoFF and discard the bounced foe. It's a lock :)

Wasteland are mainly for Grove of the Burnwillows (Punishing Fire), Karakas (Vendillion Clique + Venser) and 12-Post.

I agree with the 4 Thoughtseize/2 IoK Split for the already named reasons by Dzra and chime in with cutting the Forest.



Enjoy your weekend fellas!

Secretly.A.Bee
08-26-2013, 01:40 AM
Okay, awesome responses. Here's my take:::

Misdirection::: I like the Misdirection. So far it's been awesome, it's hit 3 Hymns in testing and each time, it basically won the game. It still obv. acts as a counterspell against counterspells, acts as a free StP/A.Decay/etc. and that is far sweeter than countering it straight up (gets rid of the 2-fer effect that a Force brings to the table). The only reason I would play the 4th Force over it is in an open meta that has a pretty strong storm presence. This next part isn't a good reason to play it, but I have MisD'ed a Tendrils copy and that negates another copy, allowing myself to live long enough to swing for the win before they could get a second (mini)-Tendrils off. Can't do that with a Force.

Land::: The second Island stays as it really does solidify the mana base; I wasn't suprised at this, as this is the basic land configuration I played in DDFT and it did the same for me there. If I drop it, I am going to have no real reason to not play Wastes, and I don't really like them in here. I play the control role most of the time, not the mid-range. JunkBlade does have a better time at doing that, and I see it a lot. The only way I would put in Sea #2 is if I dropped Scrubland, and I don't like that at all. I didn't like the forest either, but my test-buddy convinced me. Goodbye only spot I have ever found to play you, Japanese 4th Edition Forest! 1 cut it for a 4th Strand. I really like the 9 fetches. I know it's a little low in a LOT of people's opinion in a list running 4 DRS (especially without the Wastelands), but so far it's been good. 9 fetches, 4 T-Seize, 3 Force is enough pain for me. 22 Lands feels perfect, btw. Don't draw too many, but I don't ever really get 1-land hands, either.

Discard::: Now I have to find a 4th Chinese Thoughtseize...Until then I must play the 3/3 split, but I am going to be diligent and get it asap, as I do think I probably agree with you.

OTHER STUFF:::

I cannot find room for any more blue spells, and I really dislike Ponder. REALLY (This may also be from my storm days, as well). Anything I could use in it's place? Impulse? I know, probably not. Damn it. Where would I put it? Don't say Jitte, it's not leaving. It's my only defense these days against critters such as tokens, makes a beefy unblocked Geist or a not-dead blocked Geist, and can stop death instantly.

I don't like Snapcaster in the list because I already have a hard time putting in everything I like/want/need, and Swords, BS, and discard are much worse when you add 1U to their mana cost. I would think about it in the 4th SFM slot, but I'm sure that's not a very popular thought, and I now believe my deck to have a "Swiss Army Knife" in the form of 3x Equipment, 4 Tutors. SoFI would be cool in the board, but I don't know where to put it. Would a SoLS be an okay choice in the board (Same problem as SoFI, though)? It gives pro-Swords/Decay, lets me get back a Geist, life gain is not exactly necessary but would make the pain from everything listed above irrelevent.

Thank you again,

-ABC

P.S.: I do seem to have a weird thought process compared to most people here, AEnesidem. I like to think it makes me a hard-to-read opponent, although sometimes it makes me an easily beat individual...

Lemnear
08-26-2013, 02:31 AM
Neither sword protects you from Abrupt Decay ... Your opponent isn't targeting your creature but te Equipment so that's a non-issue

The clue about Snapcaster is that they virtual increase the count of your Discard, Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decays beyond the initial playset without the need to run (worse) substitutes. Once you have a fine selection of spells in your graveyard it's whatever you want/need and comes with a Body to carry equipment which is by far better than Path to Exile or such, if you need more removal in your deck.

The Problem of Snapcaster however is the presence of DRS to basically negate the flashback, therefore we see the trend towards Dark Confidant over Snapcasters and the cutting of mainboard FoW because of the low Bluecount

Secretly.A.Bee
08-26-2013, 05:03 AM
So the trend is basically saying, hey, lets play bad Junkblade with Geists? I don't like it. Needs moar blue. On the issue of swords not protecting against Decay, it does. Them using a Decay on my sword means not using it on something else. Also, I only meant it protects the creature.

Start playing JunkBlade with blue and you may as well switch to Shardless. It does it better.

-ABC

Lemnear
08-26-2013, 06:42 AM
Ok, but tbh what value does an blank SFM or Geist have, if your opponent Decays your Sword in the battle-step and blocks your creatures to Death? Your Equipments are your MVP's on the field and seeing them dismantled is bad news.

For pressing more blue into the deck I can't see moar options than cutting the third Equipment or the Decays with the later option being a relieve to the tortured UWB manabase

AEnesidem
08-26-2013, 06:49 AM
So the trend is basically saying, hey, lets play bad Junkblade with Geists? I don't like it. Needs moar blue. On the issue of swords not protecting against Decay, it does. Them using a Decay on my sword means not using it on something else. Also, I only meant it protects the creature.

Start playing JunkBlade with blue and you may as well switch to Shardless. It does it better.

-ABC
No, the trend is saying: "let's slam all the best cards in one deck and overwhelm our opponent with them" And that is exactly what deathblade should do. If you want more blue and prefer more answers than you should stick to esperblade like i do.

His point on the sword not protecting the creature was that they would always target the sword anyway. If you have a sword on the field they will always target the sword before any creature you have.

fetzonk
08-26-2013, 07:20 AM
Instead of Misdirection, could Divert be a worthy substitution, at least in a snapcaster-build?

Dzra
08-26-2013, 10:58 AM
Instead of Misdirection, could Divert be a worthy substitution, at least in a snapcaster-build?

Divert is the type of card I'd play alongside Dazes and Wastelands. I like it, but probably not here.

Sturtzilla
08-26-2013, 11:12 AM
Divert is the type of card I'd play alongside Dazes and Wastelands. I like it, but probably not here.

I think if we are going for this type of effect, that Misdirection is probably better. Just my thoughts on the topic.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-27-2013, 03:24 PM
About the Sword: Derp. I didn't think about it that way. You are absolutely correct. SFM turns to Squire, and Geist is teenie-weenie without them, especially Sword.

About "moar" blue: You are right. If I feel I need more blue in any metagame, I should abandon the build and play Esperblade. That is obviously the best Idea, not weaken my Deathblade list.

Divert: Good, but I agree with Dzra. You would much rather use MisD. Otherwise, Spell Pierce is better here. Heck, a 7th discard spell would be better than a Divert in my opinion.

-ABC

Lemnear
08-27-2013, 04:03 PM
About the Sword: Derp. I didn't think about it that way. You are absolutely correct. SFM turns to Squire, and Geist is teenie-weenie without them, especially Sword.

About "moar" blue: You are right. If I feel I need more blue in any metagame, I should abandon the build and play Esperblade. That is obviously the best Idea, not weaken my Deathblade list.

Divert: Good, but I agree with Dzra. You would much rather use MisD. Otherwise, Spell Pierce is better here. Heck, a 7th discard spell would be better than a Divert in my opinion.

-ABC

I support all points

Secretly.A.Bee
08-31-2013, 10:15 PM
Okay, I'm having a very hard time stabilizing against Maverick, let alone winning, I went 0-X today against it, and X is every game. I don't even know how many times. What do I do? Out-Tempos me, blows up my equipment, eats my critters with StP in response to equipping, then the Thespian's Depths Combo was atrocious (I see why you guys play Wasteland, between lands combo and MoIth). Stalled a bit against Thalia with Karakas, but after a couple turns, that slowed me down long enough he didn't even win the game with her on the table. Stupid. Geist is a wuss. Also, I think I will like him better after I slap a Gift of Immortality on him when Theros comes out:

Gift of Immortality 2w
Enchantment — Aura Rare
Enchant creature
When enchanted creature dies, return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control. Return Gift of Immortality to the battlefield attached to that creature at the beginning of the next end step.

I think it *may* be better than putting a Steel of the Godhead on him. That puts me in a decklist other than Deathblade though. Anyway, any help against Maverick, Junk Blade and Jund are most helpful (Jund just beats me sometimes, but the Maverick mu is poop).

-ABC

Lemnear
08-31-2013, 10:37 PM
Gift is worse than a Equipment and is also hit by Decay if that's your Problem. That's exactly the issue with Maverick? Qasali Pridemage and Giant KotR's paired with GSZ? If that's the case, I suspect tacking the problem can be tricky because your Equipment is essential and I don't see Academy Ruins being an economic solution. The only things that come to mind are SB Meddling Mages (also good against combo), Venser bouncing the Equipment and problematic permaments like Knights (too slow to protect Equip) or playing more the tempo game with Wasteland + Stifle.

My first try would be the Meddling Mages even if they might sidestep those with GSZ :/

AEnesidem
09-01-2013, 04:49 AM
Putting bad cards in your deck to make a bad creature decent in a certain matchup certainly isn't going to solve your problem.

Lemnear
09-01-2013, 04:57 AM
Didn't the option come up to attack with Geist against Thalia and simply bounce it before combat (Karakas) with the Angel Token on the Stack and simply replaying Geist afterwards for basically playing a 4-mana-Char each round (if he Attacks with Thalia or so) rather than keep bouncing Thalia and other non-flyers?

Secretly.A.Bee
09-01-2013, 06:44 PM
with 5 creatures on their side of the table (Goyf, 2x Heirarch, Thalia, and Pridemage), it's hard to stabilize at all, let alone drop a Geist when they are attacking your manabase and hand via wastelands and Hymns. It's a crazy deck and I think I just have to play heavy countermagic games 2 and 3. Anyone ever try Teeg in here? Seems better than MMage and still lets you have a good matchup against combo...

-ABC

Drow Ranger
09-07-2013, 02:54 PM
Due to a very combo based metagame here in Germany I've decided to put in a few more counters again.
Here's my new list I've been heavily testing the last few days and was quite happy with it :

"Deathblade New (more Counter)"

//Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant

//Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

//Sorceries
3 Thoughtseize

//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tropical Island

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Vindicate

Secretly.A.Bee
09-07-2013, 05:27 PM
You need the same lesson I needed. Don't try to cram it all in. If you want more counters go back to Esperblade or heaven forbid, UW Control. I see what you did, i tried it too. Dropping 3 discard spells and lower creature numbers to make your list more reactive to the stack when you should be aggressively maintaining the board, pushing your win-con through to allow as fast of a win as conceivable. The discard needs to be at 6. I tested none, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Its good at 6. Also, I think your numbers on Snappy and Bob are not correct, but I may be wrong.

-ABC

Edit: I also think a single spell snare is terrible. Where are the flusterstorms if combo is the reason you want moar blue?

Drow Ranger
09-07-2013, 06:19 PM
Don't you think more counterspells can compensate a 4th and 5th discard spell ?
Testing against many different decks gone quite well today.
Would you rather play 2 Spell Snare and 0 CS ?
And what numbers of Bob/snapcaster do you prefer ?
I don't own any flusterstorms at the moment.

//edit: Removed the singleton Spell Snare and trying with 4 TS.

.Ix
09-07-2013, 10:21 PM
You need the same lesson I needed. Don't try to cram it all in. If you want more counters go back to Esperblade or heaven forbid, UW Control. I see what you did, i tried it too. Dropping 3 discard spells and lower creature numbers to make your list more reactive to the stack when you should be aggressively maintaining the board, pushing your win-con through to allow as fast of a win as conceivable. The discard needs to be at 6. I tested none, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Its good at 6. Also, I think your numbers on Snappy and Bob are not correct, but I may be wrong.

-ABC

Edit: I also think a single spell snare is terrible. Where are the flusterstorms if combo is the reason you want moar blue?

Been testing this deck as well. One trick I've done with discard in Junk was play 2 Seize and 2 Cabal therapy, which effectively gives me 6 discard and frees up two more slots. This deck can afford (and sometimes may even want to) toss its own creatures for discard, but I use the freed slots for Lingering Souls, which are obviously really good with Therapy. I know it's not point discard and you stand a good chance of whiffing, but if you're fishing for one specific card (ie the card that your other spells can't beat) it doesn't usually matter in Junk. It's been good in the deck so far so I'll keep testing it.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-08-2013, 02:04 AM
Don't you think more counterspells can compensate a 4th and 5th discard spell ?
Testing against many different decks gone quite well today.
Would you rather play 2 Spell Snare and 0 CS ?
And what numbers of Bob/snapcaster do you prefer ?
I don't own any flusterstorms at the moment.

//edit: Removed the singleton Spell Snare and trying with 4 TS.

No, I don't think more counterspells can compensate. I know they can't compensate. Like I said, I tried the route you are going (check the last 2 pages for my battles on this exact problem), and it's terrible. Bouncing a creature with Jace and making them discard it is epic, compared to having nothing to counter their hate-bear with and then top decking a counter spell of some sort the very next turn. Much prefer the discard. I prefer 0 Snapcaster/4 Bob. Snapcaster in this list can be lackluster (might be different with Sword of Feast and Famine MD). Drawing more cards is probably the better bet, especially with all the DRS, RIP and other yard hate roaming around the meta. Also, Bob can really draw off a lot of removal, whereas Snappy is a crappy creature after its CIP effect and does nothing except block for a turn and die. I prefer my 3/1 split of Geist/Clique to Bobs or Snapcasters, but I prefer Bob to Snapcaster...

If I had the option of playing more counterspells, I would play 3 FoW, 2 MisD, 3 Pierce, 1 CS. 2 or even 3 Flusterstorm in the board, and 5 Discard spells. But that's unreasonable in this list. If you want something like that, play Esper. I don't lose to Counterbalance.dec any relevant amount, especially after SB. You will if you play Esperblade, at least a fair amount of the time.

If you are worried about Storm, drop the snares, go Pierces and buy some Flusterstorms. And go up to 6 discard. More help than anything, honestly. Knowing their hand means you know what to counter because you know what strategy they are going to have to use. Removing a spell without adding to their storm count is better than helping them kill you.

About Cabal Therapy: I hate it. You may as well use Probe. At least it will net you a card and help you tempo more. You will whiff more than hit in an open meta, and tossing a creature to flash it back will kill your tempo as well, even if it is a Spirit token.

-ABC

somethingdotdotdot
09-08-2013, 06:11 AM
I've been wanting to play a deathblade list for a while but couldn't stomach running confidant with fow's main. I ended up with a md thats a lot closer to a junk deck than esperblade. Wondering how you guys would think this would fare versus combo decks mainly. Obviously, the md is made to beat the grindier matchups and the combo matchup is shored up in the board.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Lingering Souls

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Brainstorm
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
1x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
2x Scrubland
2x Tundra
2x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Force of Will
3x Flusterstorm
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Perish
1x Disenchant

.Ix
09-08-2013, 11:24 AM
About Cabal Therapy: I hate it. You may as well use Probe. At least it will net you a card and help you tempo more. You will whiff more than hit in an open meta, and tossing a creature to flash it back will kill your tempo as well, even if it is a Spirit token.

-ABC

Comparing Therapy to Gitaxian Probe? Really?

Secretly.A.Bee
09-08-2013, 03:40 PM
Really. It's about the same in this scenario. Blind Therapy is terrible when compared to better discard spells we already use. I only compared it to Probe because of how often it will whiff and act like a black Peek without the card draw. Sure, toss a creature to get rid of a card or two out of their hand, but in the end that creature (you only run 12-14) would have been better holding a Jitte, plus it took an additional (B) to do it.

-ABC

AEnesidem
09-08-2013, 04:05 PM
Really. It's about the same in this scenario. Blind Therapy is terrible when compared to better discard spells we already use. I only compared it to Probe because of how often it will whiff and act like a black Peek without the card draw. Sure, toss a creature to get rid of a card or two out of their hand, but in the end that creature (you only run 12-14) would have been better holding a Jitte, plus it took an additional (B) to do it.

-ABC

Oh hell no. Cabal therapy is hard to play but once you can play it it's a hell of a card. The secret is knowledge of your opponent's deck and deduction from his actions.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-08-2013, 04:25 PM
I agree with your statement and in the right decks is an amazing and dangerous tool, but the fact is that you want to play a discard spell on turn one, at least in this deck. How much information do you have on turn one in an open meta?

-ABC

Dzra
09-08-2013, 04:52 PM
Cabal Therapy works well with Lingering Souls, but really it is more of a combo card. There are too many things that Deathblade doesn't want to see for you to be able to accurately blind Therapy with any consistency.

.Ix
09-09-2013, 09:05 AM
Oh hell no. Cabal therapy is hard to play but once you can play it it's a hell of a card. The secret is knowledge of your opponent's deck and deduction from his actions.

This.

Learn to play the card. If you're playing it flat out blind on Turn 1, you're doing it wrong. Do it when you have a reasonable read on the hand or you absolutely need to call it. A lot of decks give you information anyway. Bob flips and Stoneforge are two really common examples. I mean I can understand not wanting to play the card because it's definitely not as reliable as Thoughtseize, but Gitaxian Probe lol.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-09-2013, 02:47 PM
You kids will find anything to mock. Go ahead and play it. I won't be playing it, I think it's foolish. I know how to play it, I have played it in Storm for quite a while and it's good. It's not better than our current setup, but it's good in other lists. Drop some money and pick up a set of Seizes for this list or get some very solid testing (maybe a tournament report or two) going and show me how it's better than my 4 Seize, 2 Inquisition.


Cabal Therapy works well with Lingering Souls, but really it is more of a combo card. There are too many things that Deathblade doesn't want to see for you to be able to accurately blind Therapy with any consistency.

This.

-ABC

Lemnear
09-09-2013, 02:56 PM
Therapy is good with Lingering Souls but L.Souls is a mistake in Deathblade. 4 Seize, 2-3 IoK is the way to go because you have no creatures to sac to Therapy between SFM, DRS, SCM/Bob or Geist

.Ix
09-09-2013, 07:46 PM
Drop some money and pick up a set of Seizes

-ABC

I've had 4 Thoughtseizes for a long time. Thanks for the assumption of poverty though - that's always good for a laugh.

Lemnear - The meta where I'm at is really weird. I have to have a ton of blockers because people love affinity and other aggro decks around here. That means Souls > Geist and dead discard topdecks are terrible.

Lemnear
09-10-2013, 01:40 AM
I've had 4 Thoughtseizes for a long time. Thanks for the assumption of poverty though - that's always good for a laugh.

Lemnear - The meta where I'm at is really weird. I have to have a ton of blockers because people love affinity and other aggro decks around here. That means Souls > Geist and dead discard topdecks are terrible.

Doesn't that also mean that you might shall pickup regular Esperblade with Souls and Clique or Miracles instead of Deathblade?

It Sounds that you are trying to adjust the deck to a meta it wasn't created for ... Like playing ANT with Mainboard Silences and Abrupt Decays because your meta is full of Miracles :/

Secretly.A.Bee
09-10-2013, 02:09 AM
I've had 4 Thoughtseizes for a long time. Thanks for the assumption of poverty though - that's always good for a laugh.

That in itself wasn't an assumption of poverty, simply put I assumed you didn't have them at all. Now I know you're just obstinate and won't play the best cards for the slots simply because you want to argue.

Play them or don't, I really don't care, but stop clogging the thread up with bad choices. Go play Esperblade or something better for your meta instead of trying to tweak a list with subpar cards that really has no space for tweaking in the first place. If I had room for anything, I would want more counterspells, not worse discard slots + L. Souls.

-ABC

Malakai
09-10-2013, 02:37 AM
The people who are good enough with Cabal Therapy to never miss don't go around trying to get everyone else to run it instead of a card light IoK or Thoughtseize.

There are very few legacy decks that can afford the slots to run Gitaxian Probe. This is not one of them.

You do not play Cabal Therapy over IoK/Thoughtseize when your ideal sequence is discard into Dark Confidant (possibly both on t2 off DRS).

Malakai
09-10-2013, 02:43 AM
Vs maverick: Play Perish or Supreme Verdict.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-10-2013, 04:41 AM
Never even thought of Perish. Dusting off my set as I type.

-ABC

EDIT: Looking for sideboard help. Here's my board:

Myta:
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
1 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Leyline of Sanctity

What goes in against Dark Maverick/Deadguy Ale? Also, what would you do to squeeze 2 or so Perish in the board? I'm guessing a Leyline and the a Surgical, but I would like your opinions. My list is a page, maybe two back. I will post it tomorrow afternoon again, I'm just not awake enough (Awake: Sober) to go through it again...

Malakai
09-10-2013, 10:18 AM
I don't even understand what Leyline of Sanctity is for. My guess is that it's wrong. Deathblade can't mulligan to hate like that. What is Maelstrom Pulse for? Against the artifact decks you want Disenchant, against "control" decks you want Elspeth.


I think you should look at what comes out in each matchup, and think about what should come in. That should give you a list of like 30 cards. From there, it's pretty easily to get double mileage. (Example: Surgical Extraction is both graveyard hate and comes in against combo.)

Secretly.A.Bee
09-10-2013, 01:32 PM
The 4 Leylines are for discard and sacrifice outlets (Gatekeeper, D. Edict to make me sac my Geist), as well as burn and opposing DRS. That feels solid with talk of double mileage. I know it can't mulligan well, which is why I have the full set. The Maelstrom Pulse, in tandem with 2x EE, is for tokens, a matchup that is common in my metagame via Sorin, Elspeth, and Lingering Souls. It would be a Vindicate, but that's a bad choice in my meta. I already have 4 A. Decay split between main and side.

-ABC

AEnesidem
09-10-2013, 03:22 PM
but stop clogging the thread up with bad choices

Well well, see who says that.

About cabal therapy: i wasn't saying it's that good in this deck, and it certainly isn't better than the other choices but you made it seem like a horrendous card, which it isn't. It's easy to say you can play that card but i haven't encountered many people who can. I for a fact, admit i can't play the card well at all.

About leyline of santcity: Even if you have the full 4, chances are your need to mulligan once or twice to get it. This deck can't afford that and i have no idea why you would want to put 4 copies of a card in your deck that will be useless if you can't open with them. Often they'll end up losing you the match you boarded them in for. The problem with leyline is that it's bad if you can't start with it in play.
As Malakai says. Don't just cram cards in your sideboard that you think would be good in certain matchups. First look at your maindeck and see what is good and what isn't against said deck. Then you can proceed to take out what's really bad in that matchup and constitute a sideboard from there. Look how many slots you have per matchup and then decide how many sideboard slots you want to dedicate to that matchup.

kingsey
09-10-2013, 08:47 PM
Anyone having success with main deck geist over bob ?

I'd love for anyone with a nice geist list to post up, I could use a change this week.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-11-2013, 01:47 AM
Well well, see who says that.

About cabal therapy: i wasn't saying it's that good in this deck, and it certainly isn't better than the other choices but you made it seem like a horrendous card, which it isn't. It's easy to say you can play that card but i haven't encountered many people who can. I for a fact, admit i can't play the card well at all.

About leyline of santcity: Even if you have the full 4, chances are your need to mulligan once or twice to get it. This deck can't afford that and i have no idea why you would want to put 4 copies of a card in your deck that will be useless if you can't open with them. Often they'll end up losing you the match you boarded them in for. The problem with leyline is that it's bad if you can't start with it in play.
As Malakai says. Don't just cram cards in your sideboard that you think would be good in certain matchups. First look at your maindeck and see what is good and what isn't against said deck. Then you can proceed to take out what's really bad in that matchup and constitute a sideboard from there. Look how many slots you have per matchup and then decide how many sideboard slots you want to dedicate to that matchup.

Good grief, I was looking for answers on my list. I took advice to heart once it was served in a congenial manner (something you lack in your posts is finesse. Take a page out of Dzra's book, he is capable of expressing his points in a way that aren't...inflammatory.), I did not just say "Learn to play the card. If you're playing it flat out blind on Turn 1, you're doing it wrong. [...] I mean I can understand not wanting to play the card because it's definitely not as reliable as Thoughtseize, but Gitaxian Probe lol," you did. This deck, as was pointed out to me a couple pages ago, WANTS and NEEDS to play a discard spell on turn one. Suggesting a card that doesn't do exactly that, at least to it's best yield, isn't an option for the deck. I hate repeating myself, especially when doing so to an overly egotistical individual.

Now, I must just be having a good run, because I'm not having a problem hitting it. However, even though you have a terrible way of condescending to another human pretty much every time you post, I can see that you may have a point (or Malakai did, rather, you are just an echo of the idea), and I may need a better alternative. I play Patriot Miracle (UWr) off and on and it works wonderfully in there, I simply applied that to this, and while it may have been a bit hasty, so far it hasn't been a failure. I will probably find a better use for the 4 slots, but message boards are for discussion and assistance, not belittling and petty disagreements to squander the wonderful resources made available. Please, try harder to control your ego.

Any options on stopping discard, burn, and Sacrifice effects? Countering spells is almost impossible to do in this list as you don't win counter-wars with only 4 counter spells in the whole list, and no way to find them other than 4 brainstorm, 3 Jace, which lets be honest, are needed when you do find them just to play them. I can't think of any. Even Lemnear has found a way to be more hospitable than you (No offense, Lemnear. We had our little issue, it's in the past and I have come to value your opinions, I'm just making a point).

-ABC

EDIT:::

I play a version with Geists. You should give it a try. Here's my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Geist of Saint Traft

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misdirection
3 Force of Will

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard: 15
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vindicate

I would like to hear how it goes if you do use this list or something close to it, and if you make changes to the main or side board what they are so that I can get more out of your experience. I dislike bob in this deck, and it shows in my build. I've been trying to find the room to put 2 more Vendillion Clique in the SB, but so far, no dice.

AEnesidem
09-11-2013, 08:52 AM
I wasn't being rude. I just thought that you didn't have to accuse that person of clogging the thread while your name pops up every two posts with your own lists.

Now to get back on topic and end this hostility:
The biggest problem i can see with your list is that you can't support misdirection and your forces. Including the forces, you only have 15 blue cards which is really really low. Additionally the cards you can remove to them are all good cards you don't want to pitch. (, geist, brainstorm...). I think i'd move it to the sideboard.
Why i'd prefer it in the sideboard is because what it seems to do now, is just make your deck worse game 1. Force is gonna be dead against most decks and when you face combo, chances are you end up without force fodder when you need some. I think it's better in that case to abandon the combo matchup game 1, where its chances of winning are very high anyway and make your overall matchups better. I had the same problem when i was playing Bant and
If burn is popular in your metagame, like it was in mine, you might want to use a couple of Warmth. The card is better than leyline against burn because it's actually good when you draw it. It's very narrow though, so it's only in case burn is very popular and forms a problem.
I can't directly come up with a better idea to combat sacrifice effects and i can't imagine encountring it so much that i'd need sideboard slots for it. Maybe you rely on geist a bit too much and you have to fix the problem there somewhere.
I can't see why discard would be such a huge issue though, so i can't help you on that.

Sturtzilla
09-11-2013, 10:16 AM
Greetings Everyone!

I have been playing a few decks lately trying to get a grasp on what will best attack my local meta. Anyway this week I played Deathblade to a 2-1-1 finish. I probably should have been 3-1, but my lands opponent was able to drag out some time before turns were called which allowed for him to get a draw in stead of me being able to kill him. My exact list is more or less what I have posted previously. The sideboard has changed a little bit due to the meta shifting at my lgs. I will give a mini report and then discuss where the deck felt soft. Here is the list for reference: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26350-DTB-DeathBlade&p=740952&viewfull=1#post740952

I played it with the following changes:
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Detention Sphere
-1 Marsh Flats
+1 Toughtseize
+1 Ponder
+1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will

Round 1 Chris; UB Tezz; [2-0]: I was able to close out both games pretty quickly. The first game had a tag team of Clique and Geist making short work of his life total. The second game was won on the back of Creeping Tar Pit and Deathrite activations. I will say that the Abrupt Decays and the Disenchants from the board helped out a lot here.

Round 2 Paul; Lands; [1-1-1] My start is game one was very shaky. I had Deathrite and two lands. After missing on lands for a number of turns I scooped to a Wasteland. Game two my hand was pretty much nuts. I had Deathrite into turn two Geist and that was all she wrote. In game three turn five ended with him at 1 life, one land, and a Zuran Orb, while I had Geist, Meddling Mage (naming Punishing Fire), and double Deathrite with plenty of fuel in the graveyards. He could have played one land on his next turn and been able to get to five if he sacrificed all of his lands. I had enough to Deathrite EOT, attack for 8 and then double activate my Shamans... but he slow rolled the turns coming up to the five additional turns. At a local shop you really can't get a judge to monitor your game for slow play... :frown:

Round 3 Ian; Burn; [0-2] This is the third week in a row that I have lost to this bull shit pile of non-interaction. I came back to Deathblade after a few weeks of playing Shardless. In game one I was Rift Bolted, Chained, and Bolted in turns one and two. I FoW his turn three Sulfuric Vortex, which makes things look doable as I was at 10 life and he only had one card left. I had a SFM to find a Batterskull and stabilize with. Well that last card turns out to be a second Vortex. I couldn't find the decay in time... Game two I tried to race him with Tar Pit and Deathrite after he Fireblasted himself down to 1 land with like 2-3 cards left in hand which apparently he couldn't cast. I die to a top decked Lightning Bolt the turn before I would have killed him. To be fair I was dead to most of his deck as a land or 1 cmc spell would have done me in.

Round 4 Luke; Affinity [2-0] I counter/make him sacrifice Etched Champion with FoW and Liliana. He didn't really get to assemble much of an offensive either game as I was removal heavy both games.

So I ended 2-1-1 which isn't all that great. I am not sure if it is just bad luck that I have been paired against Burn 3 weeks straight now or what, but I finally broke down and picked up 3 Chill in hopes that the turn one Deathrite into Discard + Chill will be enough to slow the deck down. Overall the deck felt pretty good. I was still running the 3 Basics which served me well versus both Lands and Burn; however, they did not prove to be enough versus Burn. I think the Burn match up should be winnable with SFM into Batterskull/Jitte and the Decays/Disenchants for the Sulfurics... I think it came down to it being a less than favorable match up and the draw being slightly in my opponent's favor. Any thoughts or suggestions on this would be appreciated. Finally, thanks for keeping the discussion going and the deck moving forward!

TheArchitect
09-11-2013, 12:38 PM
Anyone having success with main deck geist over bob ?

I'd love for anyone with a nice geist list to post up, I could use a change this week.

The list I've been using for a while now:

1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Creeping Tarpit

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique



Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
1 Force of Will
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Notion Thief


I haven't played it at anything too big since SCG NJ like a month ago. I started out 4-0 and then played Big Red (mono red sneak attack), Shardless BUG and UWr Landstill to pick up 3 losses and dropped. BUG and Big Red crushed me but the landstill match I punted.

The only decks I consistently have trouble with are shardless BUG and elves so I am looking for ways to improve those matchups. The SB can change around a lot so take what I posted for SB with a grain of salt.

Malakai
09-11-2013, 12:40 PM
The 4 Leylines are for discard and sacrifice outlets (Gatekeeper, D. Edict to make me sac my Geist), as well as burn and opposing DRS. That feels solid with talk of double mileage. I know it can't mulligan well, which is why I have the full set. The Maelstrom Pulse, in tandem with 2x EE, is for tokens, a matchup that is common in my metagame via Sorin, Elspeth, and Lingering Souls. It would be a Vindicate, but that's a bad choice in my meta. I already have 4 A. Decay split between main and side.

-ABC

You aren't afraid of discard, DRS doesn't target you, and sacrifice effects that aren't Liliana are rare. I think you'd be better off against combo with Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Meddling Mage, or more discard.


re: Burn
You should be able to beat burn with your disruptive, DRS+Batterskull deck without a sideboard.


re: Geist over Dark Confidant
This may or may not be good. Either way, it's a completely different deck from the one being discussed in this thread.

kingsey
09-11-2013, 09:37 PM
re: Geist over Dark Confidant
This may or may not be good. Either way, it's a completely different deck from the one being discussed in this thread.

I don't think we need an entire new thread if a few people want to test out the merit of Geist in this deck.

I'm torn on sleeving this up or sleeving up UWr miracles for the local this week. Need a break from team america

survival
09-12-2013, 02:54 AM
How is the match-up against miracle?

Water_Wizard
09-12-2013, 03:05 AM
RE: Burn, I think that it's just a tough match-up that you have to realize that we're an underdog too. Any kind of combo usually smokes Burn, but burn usually beats mid-range and most control (especially BUG-type decks that run lots of non-basics). You could run GSZ to help find Rhox, but turn 4/5 might be too late. You could run Aegis of Honor and E. Tutor. Kitchen Finks is also a really good option.

I can share you pain. I dislike running a 'decent' deck and losing to Burn. However, we just have to keep fighting the good fight.

Malakai
09-12-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Burn, I think that it's just a tough match-up that you have to realize that we're an underdog too. Any kind of combo usually smokes Burn, but burn usually beats mid-range and most control (especially BUG-type decks that run lots of non-basics). You could run GSZ to help find Rhox, but turn 4/5 might be too late. You could run Aegis of Honor and E. Tutor. Kitchen Finks is also a really good option.

I can share you pain. I dislike running a 'decent' deck and losing to Burn. However, we just have to keep fighting the good fight.

Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic both win the game if they stay in play against burn. You have discard and FoW to protect them. Are they blowing you out with Price of Progress? Are you trying to setup Jace for some reason? I don't understand how UW can consider burn to be a bye but this deck with more sources of lifegain doesn't.

Sturtzilla
09-12-2013, 01:39 PM
re: Burn You should be able to beat burn with your disruptive, DRS+Batterskull deck without a sideboard.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Sulfuric Vortex. It takes out our ability to gain life and therefore our ability to stabilize. If the Burn player doesn't have a Vortex, they can just burn off Deathrite. In this case he essentially acts as a Healing Salve, which isn't really where we want to be. Most Deathblade lists aren't running Spell Pierces or Snares in the main deck. This effects tend to be pretty good as you get to counter the spells that actually matter like the bolt pointed at you SFM or a Price of Progress. Additionally discard can be effective although it really only buys some time. One of Burn's biggest advantages is how consistent it is. When you deck is all lightning bolts save for Vortex and Price you can end games very quickly even when in top deck mode. Finally your comment was next to useless. Making a blanket statement like you have here, while generally true, isn't always the case. Furthermore, your post fails to address the question originally posited about ways to beat the deck.



RE: Burn, I think that it's just a tough match-up that you have to realize that we're an underdog too. Any kind of combo usually smokes Burn, but burn usually beats mid-range and most control (especially BUG-type decks that run lots of non-basics). You could run GSZ to help find Rhox, but turn 4/5 might be too late. You could run Aegis of Honor and E. Tutor. Kitchen Finks is also a really good option. I can share you pain. I dislike running a 'decent' deck and losing to Burn. However, we just have to keep fighting the good fight.

I am aware of Burn's good and bad match ups. The only other thing that GSZ could find would be Deathrite. I think it is very narrow and probably not that ideal. I would prefer to go to Chill or Leyline of Sanctity. Chill makes each Bolt cost 2:r:, which if you are on the play will translate to a turn two time walk and possibly lock them out of the game if they can't find a third land. Even if they manage to find the third land they are only getting to play one spell each turn which really slows down their clock. Leyline turns off every spell in their deck except for creatures (if they play them), Flame Rift, Vortex, and Price of Progress. Aegis of Honor is actually just hilarious. I may have to give it a try.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-12-2013, 02:52 PM
Vortex is quite the mean little beast. I myself have looked into the lack of counterspells, and there is nothing to be done; in fact, I don't remember who, but I've been told by at least one person here to drop the FoW's to the board. That is a bad idea even if my blue count is low, and it is. However, in my mind, discard has gotten even worse against burn. Against Burn, all your discard (at least 4 of the 6) turn their lightning bolt effects into Shock effects, and I have to tell you, they don't mind. On the rare occasion that they have something other than bolt effects, having the opportunity to grab Price is often to naught, because if they don't play it, it's either turn one and will probably hit another before game's end, or they didn't need it anyway as you fetched basics in planning ahead for the PoP. Grabbing their Vortex is good if you get the chance, but it's not how you win games, it's how you stay alive a couple turns longer, best case scenario.

I have a buddy that plays a burn list he and I worked out together, and it pwns me every match, unless he gets land scewed (plays 18 lands instead of 19).

Burn doesn't let Stoneforge live. That's the entire plan: Kill Mystic, kill you. They let DRS live until they must remove it if you are 'Shockin' them with it via their own bolt effects, or if it's a main source of mana. Also, burn offers very little in the way of help with lands in the GY and gives you literally nothing to wasteland. Unless you waste your own non-basics or whittle away your own life total via Fetches (which they appreciate the help...), DRS is kind of dead in the burn matchup. Geist helps. It doesn't get blocked often and if it does, you swords. Swings in for 6 total without ever really losing anything if they actually decide to try and stop the 4 damage from the angel (occasionally they will, but that means you are dead next turn or are winning for some strange reason).

I've been trying out different SB options, and I miss the Leylines. I'm going back, I don't care if it's not at it's peak performance in this build, it's the best option against burn, and in tandem with 2 Misdirection, even better against heavy discard. Chill would be good if it was less strict on what it's good against, and I feel the same about Aegis of Honor. I would only want it as a one-of, and that makes me go into the Enlightened Tutor realm, and I don't want to be there. That's for EsperBlade imho.

-ABC

EDIT::: UW considers it a bye if you consider what cards they play:

CB/Top
Spell Pierce
More blue spells to pitch to FoW
Less dead cards such as Abrupt Decay

Gee, I wonder why it's a bye for UW.

SECOND EDIT::: I'm thinking about taking a page out of Nic Fit's book and trying out Sigarda, Hose of Herons. I don't know exactly where in my 75, but to test is to learn. Stops Lili against my Geist and really has the potential to turn the game around. A 5/5 hexproof flyer isn't bad for 5 anyway. Can trade with pretty much anything, and then bounces with Karakas. I think it may have some SB potential against Shardless and Burn.

catmint
09-12-2013, 05:17 PM
How can you have problems versus burn.
1) fetch basics
2) protect your SFM with discard, pierce, fluster & force (also many of their burn spells don't target creatures)

There is still some magic to be played but if you play tight, you should have a significant edge. I never lost a match versus burn

TheArchitect
09-12-2013, 09:25 PM
SECOND EDIT::: I'm thinking about taking a page out of Nic Fit's book and trying out Sigarda, Hose of Herons. I don't know exactly where in my 75, but to test is to learn. Stops Lili against my Geist and really has the potential to turn the game around. A 5/5 hexproof flyer isn't bad for 5 anyway. Can trade with pretty much anything, and then bounces with Karakas. I think it may have some SB potential against Shardless and Burn.

I was thinking the same thing. I have played her in that deck before, and if you resolve her on a fairly empty board, you will beat any BGx deck. That said, sometimes shes terrible because, yeah she cant die, but a single green 2 drop can just out race her.

One card I tested with excellent results at improving the BUG matchup was Mirrian crusader. They basically lose if you get to cast one. Jace bounce or Lily is the only way that can stop him. No removal hits him and not a single creature in their deck can block him. The issue with him is you want him out early, so he needs to be like a 2-3 of and he's basically only good in that matchup. Also, equipping one with a jitte or sword of x and y is hilarious.



@Burn:
It's going to be a terrible matchup. There's really no way around it unless you want like 6 dedicated hate cards in your SB. Burn preys on greedy 3+ color blue decks like this one.

If you are really having an issue with burn and feel the need to devote SB cards to it, the best card is Timely Reinforcements. Kitchen Finks, BEB and Chill are also OKish options.

Leyline of sanctity is surprisingly not that effective against burn. They will just use their burn to clear paths for their goblin guides and Keldon Marauders. It slows them down slightly, but does not stop them. If you go look at a burn list, you will see that a good chunk of the cards, and the highest value ones, don't actually target players. Vortex, Price of progress, flame rift, volcanic fallout can still hit you.



2) protect your SFM with discard, pierce, fluster & force (also many of their burn spells don't target creatures)

EDIT: Also, I feel like this should go without saying, but for the love of god, sideboard out your thoughtseizes and force of wills.

lordofthepit
09-12-2013, 10:09 PM
EDIT: Also, I feel like this should go without saying, but for the love of god, sideboard out your thoughtseizes and force of wills.

When I was playing Esper Stoneblade, I would never side out my Force of Wills against Burn.

It may feel terrible against a Lava Spike, but Burn plays out like a 7-card combo deck. And being able to nab a Sulfuric Vortex or a Smash to Smithereens on your Batterskull is crucial. You certainly have worse cards to side out.

TheArchitect
09-12-2013, 10:57 PM
When I was playing Esper Stoneblade, I would never side out my Force of Wills against Burn.

It may feel terrible against a Lava Spike, but Burn plays out like a 7-card combo deck. And being able to nab a Sulfuric Vortex or a Smash to Smithereens on your Batterskull is crucial. You certainly have worse cards to side out.

I guess if you literally have nothing else relevant to bring in its ok. But its a really bad card in the matchup. They play like a 7 card combo deck, but they have a like a 3/4 chance of topdecking one of there combo pieces every time they draw. Nabbing a vortex or smash is the only time the card will ever do anything useful.

lordofthepit
09-13-2013, 12:43 AM
I guess if you literally have nothing else relevant to bring in its ok. But its a really bad card in the matchup. They play like a 7 card combo deck, but they have a like a 3/4 chance of topdecking one of there combo pieces every time they draw. Nabbing a vortex or smash is the only time the card will ever do anything useful.

I certainly may not be right, but I'd like to explain my reasoning some more to see if we can reach a consensus.

Aside from the obvious combo or bomb-heavy matchups where Force of Will is really important, my inclination is to keep (at least some copies) of them in if I'm likely to die with cards still in my hand and shave them if the matchup consistently results in a grindfest in which both players are drawing off the top. In my opinion, the burn matchup is the former (in addition to the aforementioned must-counters in Sulfuric Vortex, Smash to Smithereens, or even Price of Progress or an early Goblin Guide).

If I were on a decklist like Vidianto Wijaya's Esper Stoneblade list, I would consider the Thoughtseize an instant cut, just like you do. I consider Lingering Souls pretty weak too because it's too slow and fragile to be an effective blocker or a win con (although it's useful for carrying equipment), so I'd be inclined to shave a few copies. I'd cut either the Engineered Explosives or the Vindicate, since they're both pretty slow (but I'll probably leave a copy to hedge against Vortex if I can't find more cards to take out), and I'd board out the Supreme Verdict for the same reason. I'm also inclined to shave a Jace here. Then I would bring in the extra Inquisition and Pierce for sure. Nothing else is particularly desirable, but I think Geist is the next card I'd bring in (since it can carry Jitte without getting blown up in response to equipping) and the 4th Force just because of lack of anything else useful in the matchup.

If I were playing with Todd Anderson's Esper Deathblade list from Columbus, then I would shave his 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Detention Sphere, 1 Jace, and 2 of 4 Dark Confidants for 2 Meddling Mage, 3 Geists, and the 4th Force of Will.

Please let me know if you disagree with any specific aspect of this strategy.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-13-2013, 01:36 AM
How can you have problems versus burn.
1) fetch basics
2) protect your SFM with discard, pierce, fluster & force (also many of their burn spells don't target creatures)

There is still some magic to be played but if you play tight, you should have a significant edge. I never lost a match versus burn

Cards in burn that target creatures:

Grim Lavamancer
Rift Bolt
Chain Lightning
Searing Blaze
Lightning Bolt
Magma Jet
Fireblast
Lava Dart
Flame Jab

I'm sure there are more, but these are the most common, and all of them can kill a Mystic. I'm pretty sure discard is a stupid wager. It's been proven, at least in my eyes, that burn is one of the best decks in top-deck mode. I also know that my normal burn opponent is smart enough to run Ensnaring Bridges in the board, and that, my friends, just makes it worse, although Geist can help aleviate(sp?) some of that as long as they don't go too low on cards...at least it gets one, maybe two shots in if you are lucky, they don't really have

In my opinion, not all of their cards target creatures, but a crap-ton still can and do. Also, they do still have mass removal in their boards most of the time, which they will use if you go Hexproof on them. However, I believe that one spell will be easier to counter, or at least bait out.

Fetching basics is obvious, but if you want to play anything in time to win, nonbasics are a necessary evil, and that brings in PoP. I think Surgicals might be a possible option if you do go ahead and leave your discard suite in, make them discard PoP and then Extract them. That's iffy as it's a toss-up if they have it or not, and if not, it's back to Shock City. I am going to test Sigarda in my board as a 2-of.

Golgari Charm lets you regenerate. Just an aside...I don't know how good it really would be, but it's worth mentioning.

I don't know how you "never lost a game to burn", maybe you've never played against a good burn opponent...or at all...

Also, I think it may be necessary to say, be prepared to see the green splash because of the new Destructive Revelry.

-ABC

AEnesidem
09-13-2013, 06:55 AM
Well, the way i take on burn is disrupting their starting hand. If they can't deal enough damage with their initial hand they get into a very slow topdeck mode and die to you. That's why discard and counters are good against them. You board in cards like flusterstorm and some extra discard to protect your SFM and to stop their starting 7 from harming you too much.
It's all about buying time and getting batterskull online.

Ensnaring bridge is indeed a problem but i think you should be boarding in some answers to artifacts/enchantments anyway because of sulfuric vortex.

dunk
09-13-2013, 10:02 AM
Force of Will is bad vs Burn, seriously wtf? The game is decided within the first few turns and boarding out Force leaves you cold to randomly getting Priced / Blasted / Vortexed / Lavamancered out of the game. And you will need as many ways as possbile to protect your lifegain "combo".

Otherwise, I agree with catmint. The matchup is really not complex or something - just find a way to gain life and prevent them from killing you while assembling your lifegain. If you can fetch for basiclands the matchup is a cakewalk.

Sturtzilla
09-13-2013, 10:38 AM
Otherwise, I agree with catmint. The matchup is really not complex or something - just find a way to gain life and prevent them from killing you while assembling your lifegain. If you can fetch for basiclands the matchup is a cakewalk.

I think we may be going a bit too deep on this topic at this point. We all know the game plan is to get some form of life gain online so we do not succumb to their 5-7 card combo deck. I think I have just been a bit unlucky over the past few weeks in playing against the deck. When I was playing Shardless, I would Thoughtseize out the Price and counter a second Price, just to have my opponent find a third one the turn before I was able to kill him. This past week, I die to a double Vortex hand as I don't have two FoWs. It is certainly not a difficult match up in theory. However, in practice against a skilled pilot, it can be a lot harder than simply, fetch basics, cast SFM, find Batterskull, SFM Batterskull into play, bash with Batterskull. Your opponent can win the die roll. Turn one suspend Rift Bolt, then Chain and Lightning Bolt you on turn two. Leaving you at 11 life without fetching/FoWing going into your second turn. This position is pretty rough as casting SFM leaves you tapped out potentially facing down Vortex (no lifegain from Batterskull and going down to 9 on your turn 3 and probably dead on their 4th turn) or triple Bolt (leaving you at 2 life). This is again assuming no fetching or FoWing has occurred.

TheArchitect
09-13-2013, 03:33 PM
This thread's discussion on burn is becoming more stupid than the burn thread's discussion on burn.

kingsey
09-27-2013, 11:56 AM
This deck die ?

Pdingo
09-28-2013, 08:01 AM
Lool why should it die???
Its a very good deck and still a good option.
Maybe at the scg you don't see because of the ''blood moon'' rise.

TheArchitect
09-28-2013, 08:37 AM
Lool why should it die???

Well it basically has the same matchups that shardless BUG has, except that it loses to shardless BUG.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-28-2013, 08:45 AM
Has less blue and card advantage also. Dead in my book. Also, goblins are back with an angry vengeance, not to mention an unfavorable SnT matchup... Luckily, I put it down and rebuilt Miracles. Me out.

-ABC

HSCK
10-17-2013, 12:20 PM
Hi everyone, so this deck has been dead for awhile now, but I think the new Commander card, Identity Nemesis gives us some legs. High power, practically invulnerable, pitchable to Force, it's really an all-star that's waiting to bust out.

Secretly.A.Bee
10-17-2013, 01:52 PM
That's a sick card, but I don't see it being good in DeathBlade. Double blue is difficult, especially when it doesn't have flash. I see Merfolk back in DTB though...

-ABC

HSCK
10-17-2013, 03:16 PM
Why is double U hard? You mean Jace mana?

Deadpool09
10-22-2013, 12:23 PM
Ny thing is, this guy is what deathbalde needs. Hes much better than Geist in this deck.
Carries equipment better, laughs at goose,mom, and what have you, agressive body and doesn't rely on grave yards.
Along with strix , this will help deathblade immensely

Secretly.A.Bee
10-22-2013, 01:57 PM
When do you want him down compared to Jace? I never wanted to play Jace until I had control of the board. White was needed for Swords, black for discard in the early turns, it wasn't easy to get blue mana and still play around wasteland. I would want him fairly early, as he helps take control of the game. I guess he does give you a reason to drop Creeping Tar Pit for a lil sturdier of a mana-base, though.

-ABC

DragoFireheart
10-26-2013, 01:26 PM
True-Name Nemesis seems amazing for this deck. He plays nice with SFM equipment and gives us a hard to kill creature. He also is a check for Tarmogoyfs in ground wars. And he pitches to FoW.

What's not to like?

Secretly.A.Bee
10-26-2013, 06:00 PM
I'm getting a bit bored of Miracles, and Tin Fins is a bit too bomby (either way). I win a lot without a ton of interaction, which is what I like about this deck. I think the argument will be, though, is this True-Name Nemesis better than Bob, not if he's better than Geist. Yes, it takes Geist's slots IF you are playing Giest, but a lot of people weren't/aren't. They played Bob in this slot. What would you pull out for Nemesis if you are playing the Bob version? I can't think of anything...Well, other than Bob.

-ABC

Deadpool09
11-10-2013, 01:19 PM
This is my new take on death blade.

4 death rite shaman
4 stone forge mystic
3 true name nemesis
2 baleful strix
2 snap caster Mage

4 brainstorm
1 ponder
3 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay
2 thought seize
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 detention sphere

3 jace the mind sculptor

1 batter skull
1 umezawas jitte

3 floode stran
2 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
1 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1scruland
1 tropical island
1 savannah
2 wasteland
1 karakas
1 academy ruins
1 plains
1 island
1 swamp

This new build incorporates true name nemesis, as it helps to somewhat nullifies the decks weakness: fighting when behind. Added with the strix, which I believe is somewhat better than bob in this deck, solidifies our offensive and defensive creatures, as they carry equipments quite well. I've been an advocate of strix for a long while. Before tnn, I had 3 on main board. It just so happens that tnn does a lot for the deck. With 2 decays and 4 stp, having at least 2 snap aster is somewhat justified. 3 force of will with 19 blue cards is perfect. 3 discard spells also helps against combos in g1. I've actually considered taking out 1 jtms for another fow, but I haven't tested this yet. The 3 basic lands don't actually hurt the deck as much as I thought. It can and will function well especially with shaman. Thoughts on the deck are appreciated.

anwei
11-10-2013, 02:21 PM
I did not like Deathblade much before, but do think its a great shell for TNN. It should be very hard for Shardless Bug to answer, particularly with any equipment, and can otherwise improve the fair matches at any point in the game. It fits well into the Geist slot in Geist builds, but that does further compound the deck's rather-lackluster team of creatures against unfair decks (which Geist, at least, helped as a fast clock). I would be inclined, looking at Deadpool's list, to cut Strix in a generic meta for more disruption.

22 Lands (more blue, maybe still 1 tar pit?)

4 DRS
4 SFM
3 TNN
2 SCM
3 JTMS
1 Batterksull
1 Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 StP
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Supreme Verdict/D. Sphere/L. Souls/Spell Pierce/2nd Decay
4 FoW
2 Thoughtseize
2 IoK

Deadpool09
11-10-2013, 03:26 PM
The thing with bob is, if you're facing an aggressive deck, they're gonna punish you hard for it. It's either it gets removed andwithout you getting any card in return, or they let you die to bob, then bum rush you.
With strix, it adds the blue count, it guarantees you a card even if they decide to burn or remove it, and if it survives, you get a another sword carrier with evasion that can also block other bigger threats. It lets you get back into the game in crucial moments without loosing a considerable amount of life points. My version aims to somewhat solve the decks weakness.

I played in armada games Saturday legacy event last night. 14 people showed up. Metas diverse as usual.
Went 2-2 losing to...... Dark depths combo, and burn. I won against punishing Jund and sneak and show.
The list felt solid, though I might have to replace the swamp for another tundra. The manabase is as solid as it can get
for technically a uwb/g deck.

My sideboard for the event
3 tormods crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 pitching needle
2 disenchant
1 force of will
1 supreme verdict
1 engineered explosives
3 mind break trap. (this might get replaced if I start playing in more sch opens)

luckme10
11-11-2013, 04:59 AM
This is my new take on death blade.

4 death rite shaman
4 stone forge mystic
3 true name nemesis
2 baleful strix
2 snap caster Mage

4 brainstorm
1 ponder
3 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay
2 thought seize
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 detention sphere

3 jace the mind sculptor

1 batter skull
1 umezawas jitte

3 floode stran
2 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
1 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1scruland
1 tropical island
1 savannah
2 wasteland
1 karakas
1 academy ruins
1 plains
1 island
1 swamp

This new build incorporates true name nemesis, as it helps to somewhat nullifies the decks weakness: fighting when behind. Added with the strix, which I believe is somewhat better than bob in this deck, solidifies our offensive and defensive creatures, as they carry equipments quite well. I've been an advocate of strix for a long while. Before tnn, I had 3 on main board. It just so happens that tnn does a lot for the deck. With 2 decays and 4 stp, having at least 2 snap aster is somewhat justified. 3 force of will with 19 blue cards is perfect. 3 discard spells also helps against combos in g1. I've actually considered taking out 1 jtms for another fow, but I haven't tested this yet. The 3 basic lands don't actually hurt the deck as much as I thought. It can and will function well especially with shaman. Thoughts on the deck are appreciated.

While I'm all for advocating True Name Nemesis in deathblade, Deathblade really needs to start to start cleaning up its manabase before it decides to add another double blue source.

Jace +abrupt decay +stoneforge sounds like an easy way to get mana screwed in this meta game. If you cut the abrupt decays, I'm pretty sure you can get away with a manabase that only has 1 green source.

Also, how effective is a singleton karakas without any legendary creatures? I understand its use in S&S heavy metagames. But for everyone else, its low probability of draw just seems more like a hold over card from bant decks when Knight of the Reliquary and Clique were more prevalent.

Deadpool09
11-11-2013, 10:14 AM
Death blade always had a horrible man abase. But with 2 green source,(savannah and tropical), and death rite shaman, I find the spells castable most of the time. Unless they aggressively wasteland you, then this deck is screwed. Then again, almost all 3 color deck is. I always try to fetch for basics in the first few turns if I can get away with it to establish my mana base. Its still a hole in the decks design. But it's it bad as it seems. With karakas, it's usually used against opposing creatures. Yes it's a singleton. I never had the opportunity to bounce Geist with it a whole lot. I understand vendilion clique with karakas is a good combo, but I have tnn over clique. if I can replace karakas with something else, I would too. Maybe another tundra?

Secretly.A.Bee
11-23-2013, 01:05 PM
Well, here's what I've been enjoying since the spoiling of TNN. It's my most recent incarnation, and I think it's not optimal, but close to it. I'm at 61 cards, but I've got a good number of blue cards for FoW, and that's something this deck didn't used to be able to claim. TNN allowed for that, as did the inclusion of Delver. The creature base is so much more aggressive, now. I feel my manabase is solid. I don't like the versions that run Wastelands, I feel it's the weakest part of the deck. I don't care if they have Karakas, and the deck is more midrange than tempo, so its really not even necessary. It goes a long way in stabilizing the manabase. Anyway, here is my list:

20
4 Strand
4 Delta
1 Flats
3 USea
2 Tundra
1 Trop
1 Scrub
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

16
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 SFM
4 TNN

25
1 Jitte
1 BSkull
1 SoFI
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 C-Spell
2 Pierce
4 FoW
4 T-Seize
1 Vindicate
1 A. Decay
3 StP

SB: 15
2 JtMS
1 Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 V. Clique
2 A. Decay
1 StP
2 Z. Persecution
1 Karakas
1 Savannah (Could be Bayou, but I think Savannah is correct)

This thread is gonna have a lot of my posts, I love DRS in Stoneblade, and the Delvers have been fantastic. Delver works here as there are 22 MD'ed Instant/Sorceries, and 21 blue cards for FoW. This, IMO, is extremely solid. Also, I know 2 Lands in the SB is not normal, and Idk how well it'll work out, but Karakas comes in with Cliques, obv. and Savannah with the Decays.

-ABC

Secretly.A.Bee
11-25-2013, 12:10 AM
Sorry for the double-post, DeathBlade just got 2nd at GP: Providence. The list was weird but it was DeathBlade.

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Secretly.A.Bee
11-25-2013, 02:42 AM
I must have missed that, and I was watching the live stream...He was recently punished for cheating so I wouldn't put it past him. And yes, sorry, I did in fact mean SCG Providence.

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lordofthepit
11-25-2013, 02:28 PM
I was half joking (and therefore half serious). There's a thread on the source somewhere about Alex's many cheating incidents along with many other accounts of what he's done. It's possible he's reformed and a straight shooter now, but I've known too many of his kind to give him the benefit if the doubt. He's likely learned from his mistakes and only cheats when he's off camera now.

Read this quick before Captain Hammer buries this thread to page 2 again.

http://i.imgur.com/ma9So6C.png

Secretly.A.Bee
11-25-2013, 07:15 PM
Anyone know his 75? I hated the idea of 2 wasteland, and he was running 3, but I would still like to see the list.

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SirTylerGalt
11-26-2013, 04:29 AM
Anyone know his 75? I hated the idea of 2 wasteland, and he was running 3, but I would still like to see the list.

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He finished 2nd, so his list is with the other Top 16 lists:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2013-11-24&end_date=2013-11-24&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20

Another Deathblade (with Daze) finished 5th.

Secretly.A.Bee
11-28-2013, 11:05 PM
My list is strange. I don't like Wasteland in here, and definitely not a three-of, which is what SCGPROV's 2nd-placer was running. I'm not able to test enough to actually know my matchups well at all currently (I own the deck, only a couple other people play though). I think a stable manabase is a much better compliment to the goals of the deck. I'm curious about Daze in here, but I fear it's no good... I like the concept of "1st turn USea->T-Seize->Daze their spell on their turn," but then I know how bad Daze can be. It also slows down my Nemesis. Anyway, my list:

15
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

I know that people play 4 or 0 Delver, so I'm hesitant, but I think it's solid. I play enough Instant/Sorcery spells to flip, but True-Name is better anytime after turn 1 IMO.

23
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate/Detention Sphere/Maelstrom Pulse (What do you think?)
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

20
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats

The sideboard is unmade because of my unrest with the maindeck. I've been doing well, but I need more playtime for testing against relevant matchups. Anyone out there trying anything similar? Different takes on it? This had 2 top-8 finishes at SCGPROV and I think it's time to get some discussion on how to best go about this.

-ABC

Tormod
11-29-2013, 02:43 AM
20 spells to flip delver is insufficient.

25 spells is the slowest I would go with 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder

Secretly.A.Bee
11-29-2013, 03:36 AM
I've heard 22. Either way it is probably too low. Recommendations?

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HSCK
11-29-2013, 08:42 AM
Just cut the Delvers for lands? It looks awful to play Delvers in a control deck, and you have zero tempo elements.

Secretly.A.Bee
11-30-2013, 01:30 AM
I think I will up the spells rather than drop the delvers. They have been good other than not flipping as often as they should. This is a midrange list way more than a control deck.

-ABC

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Tormod
11-30-2013, 02:20 AM
I think I will up the spells rather than drop the delvers. They have been good other than not flipping as often as they should. This is a midrange list way more than a control deck.

I don't advise it, BUT if you're going to do it this is what I think it could look like :wink: (I like to participate)

13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis

25
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate

2
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

20
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats

(i'd probably pull the hand disruption as well)

HSCK
11-30-2013, 11:48 AM
If you're making a midrange list, why are you running Delvers? TA and UWR do that better, bastardizing the two lists seems really poor.

Dragonslayer_90
12-03-2013, 12:59 PM
I also don't think Delver belongs in any midrange deck. It's a tempo card that requires you build around it to a certain extent. Anyways, I started messing around with Deathblade in a tempo shell rather than a control shell. Here's where I am so far:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The idea was to splice elements of UWR with Deathblade. So far in testing on cockatrice it seems good to decent against the fair decks and good against combo decks. The deck can struggle if an opposing stoneblade deck resolves a jace though. I know Deathblade has traditionally been a midrangey control deck, but I wanted to try and strengthen the tempo plays deathrite enables by playing Delvers instead of Jaces and such. I haven't played traditional deathblade too much, but I have played a Team America a good amount now so I also take influence from that deck for this list. I agree with Tormod that Thoughtseize is kind of weak in tempo decks, but I'm not going to get more greedy and try playing Hymn to Tourach. Plus I think Thoughtseize is good in the meta right now with all the stoneforge mystics and combo decks running around.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-03-2013, 07:31 PM
This archetype is for some reason being ignored. You should check out the u/b tempo thread in New deck thread.

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jedi_gof
12-06-2013, 08:46 AM
This deck is doing well in a lot of iterations.
Myself and a teammate build a version for an D&T/TNN infested meta, with SB dedicated to battling combo

Kristoffer top4'd and i dropped after bad beats left me at 4-2 for personal reasons.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15050#212889

I seriously felt on top all day, and i battled through 5 pseudo mirrors with 1x esperblade, 3x D&T and 1x UWR blade, losing only to terrible draws G3 against D&T.
Lost to nut draws r6 to UR painter combo and dropped.

Between this, elves and ANT i feel like you have the 3 strongest decks in the format. DRS, SFM and TNN are the way forward, and rarely felt behind in a way i could not get back from.

Deadpool09
12-08-2013, 09:27 PM
This deck is doing well in a lot of iterations.
Myself and a teammate build a version for an D&T/TNN infested meta, with SB dedicated to battling combo

Kristoffer top4'd and i dropped after bad beats left me at 4-2 for personal reasons.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15050#212889

I seriously felt on top all day, and i battled through 5 pseudo mirrors with 1x esperblade, 3x D&T and 1x UWR blade, losing only to terrible draws G3 against D&T.
Lost to nut draws r6 to UR painter combo and dropped.

Between this, elves and ANT i feel like you have the 3 strongest decks in the format. DRS, SFM and TNN are the way forward, and rarely felt behind in a way i could not get back from.
I really like your list. I tried making another version of deathblade after going 2-3 at an event last night. I like the fact that it has more counters. My only question is why did you drop jtms? My personal list only has 2, but dropping the whole thing seems hard to justify.

jedi_gof
12-09-2013, 04:04 AM
I really like your list. I tried making another version of deathblade after going 2-3 at an event last night. I like the fact that it has more counters. My only question is why did you drop jtms? My personal list only has 2, but dropping the whole thing seems hard to justify.

Reasoning behind JtMS bing dropped was we expected a lot of semimirrors and jace then would be a glorified 4 mana brainstorm most of the time.
We chose to play more disruption and threats instead. I guess i comes down to personal preference, i actually played 1 jace i the tourney, but i boarded it out every chance I got :) My opinion is though, the DRS versions should be more aggresive and therefore no JtMS in the 60 there.

BloodCovenant
12-09-2013, 09:35 AM
So this is the list that i ran at the 40 duals tournament in PA this weekend. ~185 showed up this weekend, which was a great turn out. I ran Bertoncini's list, with just a few alterations, mostly in the sideboard.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (24)

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
Spells (19)

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
Sideboard

1 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Theif
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize


(-1 Vendilion Clique, -3 surgical extraction. +1 Notion Theif, +3 Rest In Peace)

I didn't realize why Surgical extraction is so good in the deck, and so i threw in the rest in peace because i thought it would better in general. It was not, surgical extraction is definitely the way to go. I also didn't have a 2nd Vendilion Clique, so I threw in the Notion Theif, and I think i'm going to keep it in. I only got to cast it once, but it definitely helped me win that game, and drawing the three cards from a brainstorm felt awesome.


I had just put the deck together this last thursday, so I wasn't too familiar with it. But I really do like the list, and plan on playing it for a bit.

My record was 4-3-1. I lost my win-and-in to make top 32 which was pretty dissapointing. Lost to the mirror to some bad draws.


I came here to ask if anyone had any else was playing the same list, and had some sideboard advice for the deck?

Claymore
12-09-2013, 10:13 AM
Did you run enough Explores?

BloodCovenant
12-09-2013, 11:17 AM
Did you run enough Explores?

obviously I did not run explore.

kingtk3
12-09-2013, 11:24 AM
Did you run enough Explores?

Trolol

BloodCovenant
12-09-2013, 12:32 PM
Trolol

Wow, i've never heard of an Alex Bertoncini joke before. good one guys. can we get back onto deck discussion?

Deadpool09
12-09-2013, 02:37 PM
Wow, i've never heard of an Alex Bertoncini joke before. good one guys. can we get back onto deck discussion?

I played against a grinder playing bertoncinis deck last Saturday night. I lost 1-2 playing my own version of deathblade. Games were tight and came to rounds. Big difference maker was manriki gusari in the board. Even though I play arcane ruins, it was still a pain in the ass.
I think moving forward, specially with public enemy number 1 tnn being paired with equipments, manriki gusari should be a staple sideboard against mirrors.

JBlaze
12-09-2013, 04:32 PM
Reasoning behind JtMS bing dropped was we expected a lot of semimirrors and jace then would be a glorified 4 mana brainstorm most of the time.
We chose to play more disruption and threats instead. I guess i comes down to personal preference, i actually played 1 jace i the tourney, but i boarded it out every chance I got :) My opinion is though, the DRS versions should be more aggresive and therefore no JtMS in the 60 there.

I ran a pretty similar DeathBlade list to a 4-1 record and split in the finals yesterday, deck was very strong lost to Dredge in the first round then beat Storm 2-0, Miracles 2-0, Bug pod 2-1 and RUG Delver 2-0

The meta is very hostile to Jace right now. Jace has always been slow against combo and vulnerable against tempo. Now that a lot of the decks he used to be good against are running TNN it really might be time to bench him. The next time I play this deck I am going to test a version with 4 ponders and no Jaces

BloodCovenant
12-09-2013, 11:10 PM
I played against a grinder playing bertoncinis deck last Saturday night. I lost 1-2 playing my own version of deathblade. Games were tight and came to rounds. Big difference maker was manriki gusari in the board. Even though I play arcane ruins, it was still a pain in the ass.
I think moving forward, specially with public enemy number 1 tnn being paired with equipments, manriki gusari should be a staple sideboard against mirrors.

I completely agree, I didn't even think about Manriki when i was building the list. I'll definitely be playing it in the board this weekend at a 1k event.



I ran a pretty similar DeathBlade list to a 4-1 record and split in the finals yesterday, deck was very strong lost to Dredge in the first round then beat Storm 2-0, Miracles 2-0, Bug pod 2-1 and RUG Delver 2-0

The meta is very hostile to Jace right now. Jace has always been slow against combo and vulnerable against tempo. Now that a lot of the decks he used to be good against are running TNN it really might be time to bench him. The next time I play this deck I am going to test a version with 4 ponders and no Jaces

I do agree with you. What about putting in dark confidants instead of jace? Even two or three might be good. If the deck starts to cut jace, I may move Notion Theif to the maindeck, because I absolutely love casting that guy. Although, it's highly unlikely that i'll be taking Jace out unless the format becomes entirely creature based.

Windmill
12-09-2013, 11:17 PM
Hi guys,

So I played against deathblade with a Merfolk deck and I got crushed. The main deal was that they combined Liliana with lots of spot-removal to pick off my guys. With aether vial Liliana isn't that scary, but combined with recurring removal I just couldn't deal with it.

Spot removal proved to be a general problem and with planeswalkers running rampant in my meta, I'm thinking of running 3 x Kira, the Great Glass Spinners MD to help shore up those matches. Do you think that this is a good solution, or do you guys have another (viable) card that I could play that you'd fear more? I know that vialing in TNN would've solved my problems too, I just never drew him despite 3 x of :( (makes me want to up him to 4!).

Secretly.A.Bee
12-09-2013, 11:20 PM
I've been advocating the dropping of Jace for quite some time now. Pretty much since the spoiling of TNN. Dark Confidant isn't great in the deck either, but it is better than Jace. DC is bad because of its contention for the 2-slot, the relatively high cmc of the deck and the huge lightning rod that it will always have attached to it for removal. I prefer ponder and threat density to a painful effect that essentially never draws more than 2 cards. Plus, it's slow. If you want to continue to play jace, play him in the board as a 2-of for games you want to play the control role. I think that is wasting sb slots, but if you play him, that's the best place to do so. Manriki is awesome.

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BloodCovenant
12-09-2013, 11:46 PM
I've been advocating the dropping of Jace for quite some time now. Pretty much since the spoiling of TNN. Dark Confidant isn't great in the deck either, but it is better than Jace. DC is bad because of its contention for the 2-slot, the relatively high cmc of the deck and the huge lightning rod that it will always have attached to it for removal. I prefer ponder and threat density to a painful effect that essentially never draws more than 2 cards. Plus, it's slow. If you want to continue to play jace, play him in the board as a 2-of for games you want to play the control role. I think that is wasting sb slots, but if you play him, that's the best place to do so. Manriki is awesome.

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This may be a little bold to say, but I think i'd be ok with a Dark Confidant being bolted or swords instead of a deathrite shaman. DRS is like a 1cmc planeswalker. He just does more than DC. I don't run any Liliana's in my list right now. Maybe if I dropped jace, i'd consider putting her him.

I honestly don't like putting more than one ponder in the deck. This is a 'control' list. We're not playing tempo, we don't need 4 ponders. And besides, after a board wipe in the late game, ponder doesn't do as much as a jace does.


This may be one of my first times playing the deck, but it certainly isn't the first time i've played with jace :P

JBlaze
12-10-2013, 07:46 AM
If you want to go that direction I would suggest Baleful Strix over Dark Confidant. Strix is better with equipment, better in a fight, draws a card right away and helps keep up the blue count for force of will.

With TNN the the deck leans more toward aggro-control then pure control. Strongly recommend playing minimum two Ponder.

BloodCovenant
12-10-2013, 08:01 AM
If you want to go that direction I would suggest Baleful Strix over Dark Confidant. Strix is better with equipment, better in a fight, draws a card right away and helps keep up the blue count for force of will.

With TNN the the deck leans more toward aggro-control then pure control. Strongly recommend playing minimum two Ponder.

Yeah, not sure why i forgot about Strix, but yea, would definitely play him over DC. How essential do you think ponder really is to the deck? I think i only ever cast it once on saturday in 8 rounds.

order
12-10-2013, 02:33 PM
Where is the thread for stoneblade? I'm talking about more control lists without deathrite shaman, like:

Creatures (12)

2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
Spells (24)

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Supreme Verdict

jedi_gof
12-10-2013, 03:39 PM
Where is the thread for stoneblade? I'm talking about more control lists without deathrite shaman, like:

Creatures (12)

2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
Spells (24)

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Supreme Verdict

Well maybe the blade control thread might be the right place?

I myself am moving in on a list looking more and more aggresive


2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Restoration Angel

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swan Song
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari

JBlaze
12-10-2013, 04:35 PM
How essential do you think ponder really is to the deck? I think i only ever cast it once on saturday in 8 rounds.

Ponder smooths out your draws and makes the deck so much more consistent. Having more Ponders also makes Snapcaster better and gives something else to do with extra deathrite mana especially in the early turns . One of the strong opening lines for this deck is T1 Deathrite into T2 Brainstorm/Ponder + Stoneforge. You need at least 2 Ponders to make that happen consistently.

lavafrogg
12-10-2013, 04:36 PM
Where is the thread for stoneblade? I'm talking about more control lists without deathrite shaman, like:


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-Deck-Blade-Control

or

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21453-Deck-UWb-Esperblade

BloodCovenant
12-10-2013, 06:49 PM
Ponder smooths out your draws and makes the deck so much more consistent. Having more Ponders also makes Snapcaster better and gives something else to do with extra deathrite mana especially in the early turns . One of the strong opening lines for this deck is T1 Deathrite into T2 Brainstorm/Ponder + Stoneforge. You need at least 2 Ponders to make that happen consistently.

I think casting ponder early is generally bad. (It's the same thing with preordain in standard a few years ago) If you cast it early, then you probably kept a shaky hand. You get much better value casting your ponder 8-10 turns into the game when you're looking for answers or pressure.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-10-2013, 07:51 PM
I think it's a bad idea to compare standard plays to legacy theory. Legacy is a 4 turn format and ask any tempo build, it's a must as a 4-of to find lands, answers and threats. I play it as a 2-of in my DeathBlade list to smooth out my mana base and find answers as well as the all-important shuffle effects that you sometimes need due to having only so many fetches.

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JBlaze
12-10-2013, 08:24 PM
I think casting ponder early is generally bad. (It's the same thing with preordain in standard a few years ago) If you cast it early, then you probably kept a shaky hand. You get much better value casting your ponder 8-10 turns into the game when you're looking for answers or pressure.

Ponders pedigree is pretty well established. It is a great card at pretty much any point in the game. Some of it may come down to play style. I tend to be fairly aggressive with my Ponders and Brainstorms (part of why I want more). Legacy is such a fast powerful format that games often are compressed you don't always have time to wait for max value sometimes you just need to dig for that answer on turn two.

BloodCovenant
12-10-2013, 09:22 PM
I think it's a bad idea to compare standard plays to legacy theory. Legacy is a 4 turn format and ask any tempo build, it's a must as a 4-of to find lands, answers and threats. I play it as a 2-of in my DeathBlade list to smooth out my mana base and find answers as well as the all-important shuffle effects that you sometimes need due to having only so many fetches.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

i'm just saying that the practice of casting an early turn ponder isn't that great. It has much more value late game. It's the same sort of thing that AJ Sacher wrote a while ago about early brainstorms. You don't want to use BS as an early cantrip. Ponder is a little different sure, but it's the same concept.

BloodCovenant
12-10-2013, 09:23 PM
Ponders pedigree is pretty well established. It is a great card at pretty much any point in the game. Some of it may come down to play style. I tend to be fairly aggressive with my Ponders and Brainstorms (part of why I want more). Legacy is such a fast powerful format that games often are compressed you don't always have time to wait for max value sometimes you just need to dig for that answer on turn two.

yeah, obviously casting it to dig for a swords or a force isn't bad against creature/combo decks.


Anyways, could I get some suggestions on what to cut in the board, to bring in Manriki-Gusari?

1 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
3 surgical extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Theif
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize


i'm thinking about cutting one verdict.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-11-2013, 03:12 AM
Ponder is a much better early play than Brainstorm because it includes a shuffle effect. If you see three dead cards and no shuffle effect, you are drawing dead for the next two turns.

Edit: I think you should drop the Path to Exile for Manriki.

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Secretly.A.Bee
12-13-2013, 12:52 AM
So elves is a bad matchup. Pre-sideboard it's just a loss unless they get a slow start and you get a jitte active immediately. It's a bad matchup.

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jedi_gof
12-13-2013, 02:13 AM
If you're set up correctly Elves is favorites pre - but you are clear favorites post board.
Also knowing what matters in their deck helps... Glimpse is secretly their worst card, along with the heritage druids etc. Discard/counters should always gun for nat.orders, huge gsz's, and hardcast hoof. A hand without removal, their insect is also a must counter.

jedi_gof
12-13-2013, 02:13 AM
So elves is a bad matchup. Pre-sideboard it's just a loss unless they get a slow start and you get a jitte active immediately. It's a bad matchup.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

If you're set up correctly Elves is favorites pre - but you are clear favorites post board.
Also knowing what matters in their deck helps... Glimpse is secretly their worst card, along with the heritage druids etc. Discard/counters should always gun for nat.orders, huge gsz's, and hardcast hoof. A hand without removal, their insect is also a must counter.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-13-2013, 02:21 AM
Maybe with your own personal build but I played 10 matches and I just lose. This was a testing session and my opponent and I discussed the hands, stratagem and outcomes of the games and matches. Maybe my opponent is just a better-than-average elves player, but my testing speaks for itself, if you have testing results that show differently, I suppose you should post your list. Then I could better see how you have less problems vs. the little creeps.

Edit: Just noticed that you said they are the favored in g1. Okay. G2/3 it does get better, you are correct. It's not awesome but it is better. I play clique as a 3-of in the side. Do you think it's better than TNN against elves? The evasion is essentially the same and I think the disruption is warranted and decent. I do run 2 Z. Persecution and those both come in as well. They will probably bring in their discard package, and that will hurt. Should I drop out the 2 S. Pierce I run? It's pretty bad against so much mana production.

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BloodCovenant
12-13-2013, 03:46 AM
Maybe with your own personal build but I played 10 matches and I just lose. This was a testing session and my opponent and I discussed the hands, stratagem and outcomes of the games and matches. Maybe my opponent is just a better-than-average elves player, but my testing speaks for itself, if you have testing results that show differently, I suppose you should post your list. Then I could better see how you have less problems vs. the little creeps.

Edit: Just noticed that you said they are the favored in g1. Okay. G2/3 it does get better, you are correct. It's not awesome but it is better. I play clique as a 3-of in the side. Do you think it's better than TNN against elves? The evasion is essentially the same and I think the disruption is warranted and decent. I do run 2 Z. Persecution and those both come in as well. They will probably bring in their discard package, and that will hurt. Should I drop out the 2 S. Pierce I run? It's pretty bad against so much mana production.

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It all comes down to getting the Jitte active as soon as possible. If you can get it on a creature and swinging on turn 3, then you're in a pretty decent spot. I don't think that elves runs main deck hand disruption, so you can usually search for jitte without the need for counter magic back up. I honestly don't think it's the worst matchup possible. I mean, we have 4 MD Swords to Plowshare, some people run MD Verdicts. I've played a few games against them and done fine, i think i won 3 out of 5.

I don't think i'd bring in Clique against them. From my sideboard, i'd bring in +2 Zealous Persecution, +1 Meddling Mage, +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Supreme Verdict. I'd take out -3 Jace, TMS. -1 TNN, -1 scrubland, -1 snapcaster mage. But then again, that's just my SB i think. I'd take out the scrubland because land doesn't really matter. With 23 lands, I should still be hitting one ever turn, and I'm taking out three 4cmc spells, so it should be fine.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-13-2013, 03:47 AM
I would like to discuss a topic that is difficult to come to a concensus on: the other 2-drop creature. I'm running Strix atm but I don't love him. It's decent, but not an extremely good draw. Maybe I need to understand the matchups he's gold in, but as of now I just don't ever really care to see it.

Edit : I dislike jace in this list (own 4, run 0) and I only run verdict as a singleton in my board. Also, elves are getting wise to verdict and are running a legend that let's them regenerate their elves. Not awesome.

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JBlaze
12-13-2013, 04:21 AM
Are you running any sweepers main? I run one Supreme Verdict it's been strong in a lot of match ups elves included. We are probably a small dog against most of the combo decks In game one. At least against Elves our removal is live.


Edit: You could run more Snapcasters in the strix spot. Snapcaster is good against everything elves included.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-13-2013, 04:39 AM
No sweeps main. Snapcaster isn't a 2-drop, it's a virtual 3-drop. I run none. I run 4 tnn. I treat this deck as a midrange list that incorporates blue as a form of disruption and card advantage as well as an obvious necessary element to play tnn. I'm debating going back to delver in the list. I really liked it. I play 23 instant/sorcery spells so it flips often. Delver is good against elves.

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JBlaze
12-13-2013, 05:37 AM
Snapcaster Mage is a beast. We are not really trying to curve out so being a two drop or "virtual three drop" is not that big of a deal. What is a big deal is having virtual copies of our best spells. Seriously, Snappy is good in pretty much every match up not running any seems like a mistake.

jedi_gof
12-13-2013, 07:39 AM
Maybe with your own personal build but I played 10 matches and I just lose. This was a testing session and my opponent and I discussed the hands, stratagem and outcomes of the games and matches. Maybe my opponent is just a better-than-average elves player, but my testing speaks for itself, if you have testing results that show differently, I suppose you should post your list. Then I could better see how you have less problems vs. the little creeps.

Edit: Just noticed that you said they are the favored in g1. Okay. G2/3 it does get better, you are correct. It's not awesome but it is better. I play clique as a 3-of in the side. Do you think it's better than TNN against elves? The evasion is essentially the same and I think the disruption is warranted and decent. I do run 2 Z. Persecution and those both come in as well. They will probably bring in their discard package, and that will hurt. Should I drop out the 2 S. Pierce I run? It's pretty bad against so much mana production.

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last page and page 9 are my lists for reference mate.

As an pretty experienced elves player i might have an edge over you, as i have piloted it quite extensively and think i have a pretty good idea as to how to beat the green menace.
Also e. canonists, z.p., meddling mages along with removal, jitte and disruption and a pretty efficient clock - if not miracles or faster combo theres not many decks i would prefer to this bladedeck vs elves.
Not saying its a walk over, as I stated a few pages back, Esper - elves - ant are the 3 topdecks imo in the format currently.

BloodCovenant
12-13-2013, 12:55 PM
No sweeps main. Snapcaster isn't a 2-drop, it's a virtual 3-drop. I run none. I run 4 tnn. I treat this deck as a midrange list that incorporates blue as a form of disruption and card advantage as well as an obvious necessary element to play tnn. I'm debating going back to delver in the list. I really liked it. I play 23 instant/sorcery spells so it flips often. Delver is good against elves.

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so you're 2 drops are strix and SFM? I don't run any other 2 drop besides SFM (and snapcaster of course). I don't think that Strix is bad, and I think it's strange that you don't care for it too much. I've always thought one of it's best uses was against RUG delver. If they don't have a bolt, it can just stall out their game. It can kill every single creature that RUG has. I generally think that Delver is just bad in our deck. We don't want to waste our early brainstorms guaranteeing a flip. Also, i think that if you want to run Delver in any deck, you really need to run Daze as well for tempo reasons. With that being said, deathblade does not run well on tempo. We can't miss our third/fourth/fifth land drop. Adding in Dazes makes those land drops come a turn later which is bad.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-14-2013, 03:20 AM
Okay, finally back on my computer. My phone is good for browsing, but honestly, posting with it is a pain in the ass. Anyway, I'm going to make this post count.

First things first, the last several posts have been:

Jace: I continuously add and remove 2x from my board. I don't like them here and I don't know what to board them in against. I try to maintain the idea that a lot of people have more experience than I, seeing as how I have the unfortunate luck of living in one of the most magic-devoid areas of the U.S. However, I playtest daily against teir 1 and 1.5 builds (stock lists) with a couple of my friends and my girlfriend and honestly I hate Jace here. I think he is a major player in heavy control, but I don't feel that this is a "heavy" control deck. It's midrange. It has an aggro plan with multiple forms of disruption to let you control the game long enough for Nemesis and Co. to take the game. No time for slow, brainy PW's to meddle their way to a victory, especially when they die to tons and tons of things if you get the opportunity to play him at all. He's a 4-cmc Brainstorm at sorcery speed all too often for me to want to waste 2 slots on him in my 75. I played Miracles for quite a while (right up until the day I picked up 4x TNN, which was 2 days after he came out), and he's great there. Here, I hate Jace. He's bad.

The Non-Stoneforge 2CMC drop: The debate seems to be Strix VS. Snappy. TONS of people play Snapcaster, and I know he's good. I don't know if he's good here. It feels...Tempo-y. We aren't, as you all have made abundantly clear. I agree. Not Tempo. That makes me...hesitant to run him. I've tested him. Not a lot, because every time I do, I hate him. I like him in Tin Fins as a 2-of, and that's crazy, no one else seems to, and I see why, but he's not messed me up once, so I play him there. If I were to run him, it would be as a 2-of, and then I'd have an open slot. Probably turn into a...Ponder? I don't know, but I think we should discuss lines-of-play with Snapcaster before he "settles in." I understand his "utility" status, I just think that we need to discuss him in depth before he is solidified in his slot. Same with Strix.

Now, the next few issues are less cut-and-dry. Sideboards still seem... Undecided. Decklists as well. I think we all need to relinquish our firm grips on our lists and find our core. Most decks have a core. We need one as well. Here we go:

4x Deathrite Shaman - This is the reason for the "Death" in "DeathBlade." It's been chosen as our Flagship creature, at least for the name. I think 4 is correct, I don't think that's a point anyone will argue. It's uses are obvious. Moving on.

4x Stoneforge Mystic - The reason for "Blade" in "DeathBlade." I doubt anyone will argue with the creature. It makes TNN even better. 'Nuff said.

3x-4x True-Name Nemesis - I like him as a 4-of. It's my opinion that the more of him you run, the better you will do. So far, the largest tournies have supported this theory. DC and Providence have both supported this train-of-thought as well. Tempo can play him as a 2 or 3 of, but I think we need him as a 4-of. Recent history has shown that a 2-of on the board is rediculous, but don't over-extend. Anyway, I think this is a debatable slot, the 4th TNN. I think it's a 4-of, but if you want a debate, I'm game. However, I'm working on a Japanese playset. It will soon be complete, and I really want to play all 4. :D

2x-3x Strix/Snappy - Debate.

NON-CREATURE SPELLS:

Non-Debatable slots:

4x Brainstorm: Non-Debatable.

4x Force of Will: Non-Debatable.

3x Equipment: 1x Jitte: Non-Debatable.
1x Batterskull: Non-Debatable.
1x SoFI: Debate? I love it, and this isn't tempo, we need power. SoFF is good, but it's not for us imo. IF it's wanted, I believe a SB slot will suffice. Debate.

4x Swords to Plowshares: Non-Debatable.

4x Thoughtseize: 3x are Non-Debatable. If you don't want discard, don't play DeathBlade. Now, the 4th slot is Debatable. Most people will play 3x Thoughtseize, 1x IoK. I play 4x Thoughtseize. Debate.

Xx Spell Pierce: I run 2. I see some lists with 3x, a few with none, most with 2. Discuss and Debate.

Xx Ponder: I play it as a 2-of. I like it as a 2-of. I think a lot of this depends on the Snapcaster vs. Strix Debate. Err...Debate.

2x Meta-Slots: I run a Vindicate (between this, Detention Sphere, and Maelstrom Pulse), and a singleton MisD. Discuss, debate, suggest.

MANA-BASE:

Here is what I'm trying currently:

FETCHES: 8 (I know that a lot of individuals prefer 9)
4x Delta
3x Strand
1x Flats

DUALS: 7 (I'm not sure about the number, but I think people prefer more Tundra to more Seas)
3x USea
2x Tundra
1x Scrub
1x Trop

Basics: 4 (I think people prefer only one of each)
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Utility: 2 (I think the Ruins is generally a fetch)
1x Karakas
1x Academy Ruins (ONLY good enough when running Strix)

Mana-base: DISCUSS.



Now, with that, I will leave you to your thoughts. We still have the sideboard to discuss, but I'm a little fried. It's late, I hate my job and I work a LOT, including tonight. Anyway, I gotta get some rest. Please, think about these points, post and discuss as you see necessary, and I think we can get some good out of this. I think the "primer" is out-of-date. Let's get this straightened out.

-ABC

Deadpool09
12-14-2013, 11:55 AM
Here's my most recent list.
4 sfm
4 drs
3 tnn
2 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
1 ponder
3 fow
1 counterspell
4 stp
2 thought seize
2 iok
1 vindicate
1 detention sphere
2 abrupt decay

2 jtms

1 jitte
1 batter skull

3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
1 verdant catacomb
1 misty rainforest
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 tropical island
1 savanah
1 plains
1 island
1 swamp
2 wasteland
1 karakas
1 academy ruins
Sb:
1 fow
2 surgical extraction
3 tormods crypt
3 mind break trap
2 supreme verdict
2 zealous persecution
2 disenchant
Slight changes from my previous list are:
Removed 2 baleful strix for vindicate and a counterspell
Removed 3rd jtms for a iok.
I find the mana base stable, as it will function with drs. Unless they wasteland you twice in a row.
4 counter spells,4 discard spells, 4 creture removal,4 permanent removal seems to be working on my play tests.
I'll play in a legacy event tonight in armada games. I'll let ou guys know how it turns out.

Deadpool09
12-15-2013, 09:23 AM
All righTy. 12 people showed up for tHe weekly legacy event at armada. 4 rounds of Swiss cut to top 4.
R1 was vs mono blue Omnitel

G1 was brutally fast. I thought he was playin death and taxes like usual, but I guess he switched this week.
It was over in 3 turns via emrakul.
G2 I had some counters and disenchants and a thought sieze, sfm and lands.
My mistake was getting greedy on turn 3 to cast sfm , leaving me wide open. I should've instead saved it for a turn or two. I could've used disenchant and a drawn d.sphere. I lost to the lying spaghetti monster. 0-2

R2 vs merfolk

This is traditionally a good match up, but I cast 3 brainstorms in g1 and 2 brainstorms on g2 but I got no answers.
The whole round there was only 2 stp, 1 disenchant that I drew naturally. For all those brainstorms I casted, you would think that I would be so far ahead in card advantage that I would close him out before time. But I guess this was not my night. 0-2

R-3 NO elves
G1 ended fast behind a sfm and a jitte.
G2 he tried casting natural order on turn 5. Unfortunately, my counters was spent on 2 glimpse of nature he tried To cast earlier.
It resolved, getting a progenitus. I got a batter skull,sfm, and a shaman on board. I played tnn off a ponder. . DRS and TNN made sure I won the race. 2-0

R4 vs death and taxes
G1 was a quick win for me via 2 tnn, and a jitte.
G2 manriki gusari, which was a later addition my SB, saved my ass this game. It was basically who could land it first, and I did. He's Lone sfm and thalias could do nothing against a batter skull, and a DRS wearing manriki gusari.

So I ended with a disappointing 2-2 record. I usually make at least top 4 and get some store credit, but at this level, I shouldn't care anymore. I wanna add 2 spell pierce and a dismember, removing a counterspell and 2 abrupt decay. It will smooth out my mana base too because I don't have o splash green anymore.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-15-2013, 01:39 PM
I wish someone would take my list out for a spin. Give it a go. I have been sold on the Strix. Played 5 games against kuldotha MUD last night and went undefeated. Just ridiculous.

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Deadpool09
12-15-2013, 02:47 PM
I wish someone would take my list out for a spin. Give it a go. I have been sold on the Strix. Played 5 games against kuldotha MUD last night and went undefeated. Just ridiculous.

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My original list included 2 strix 2 snapcaster Mage, 2 abrupt decay. But my meta suddenly leaned towards combo, though there's still some midrange decks, rouge decks and brews. I found that I should up the counter spells and discards. I might try your list next week or I could use an updated version of what I have

pe5e
12-15-2013, 04:17 PM
Hey what`s up guys!
I `m a long time reader and want to share my experience with Deathblade so far.

This is my list:
//Manabase
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Academy Ruins

First of all: No Basics and no Karkas! I want a very safe manabase with this deck. Nothing is more annyoing then dying a bloody death with a hand full of buisness. Basics are great vs wasteland, but only if you got 2 or more on the board in my experience. Recovering from wasteland is a lot easier with duals and you dont get randomly screwed if you drew them early. Also i cutted Karkas. I really see the card a bit over hyped in this deck. Only being able to cast 5+ cards in my deck is a huge issue. I dont really care if i die to Blood Moon since that card doesnt see much play and i still play solutions against it.
My Utility lands of choice are Tower of the Magistrate and Academy Ruins right now. That might change again, but i really like those in the decay/blade meta.

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage

I play only 3 mystics. The reson behind this is that with the low spell snare count she will resolve most of the time. And with that she mostly has done her job. The list has enough creatures to euip especially with True-Name Nemesis. It isnt that big of a deal if the mystic gets removed afterwards. I also really really like the Vendillion Clique in here. Great against almost everything right now while being another flash creature for Lilliana of the Veil and a flyer for True-Name Nemesis. I play a split between Baleful Strix and Snapcaster Mage right now and it feel alright so far, but changes maybe. The Strix is the 61nd card but i really like her a lot.

//Equip
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I choose not to play Sword of Fire and Ice maindeck, because deck space is thight and i feel like i dont really need it maindeck for too many match ups.

//Removel and CA/CQ
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Pretty Standard. I still like Jace a lot since it still wins too many games on its own. The 1-off Decay helps against random stuff g1, but mostly against equip.

//the Sideboard
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage

The SB is under construction but it really works well so far.

The deck is pretty damm good right now and has a good chance agianst almost everything. I would like to hear your opions about the deck list and what could maybe be improved.
Hope to see a good discussion.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-15-2013, 04:41 PM
Pe5e: No basics and no wastelands. No thanks. One or the other, both is bad, neither is worse. Duals + Fetches being the manabase isn't something I'm prepared to do. Also, too many one-ofs in your creature base. Strix is good in numbers or equipped or with recursion. It's not so hot as a singleton. I tried running only 2 and I hated it. I think 3 is right. Otherwise, strengthen your game plan; drop it all together and play more Snapcasters. The pre-TNN lists were awesome. I think we should probably be a lot closer to those lists than we are. Jace is a topic I'm going to drop, but only after I say it one final time: Jace sucks here. I get it. You dropped 4-500 dollars on a playset and you wanna play him. Fine. There's a reason, though, that DeathBlade used to be a DTB, and then died, and then from the ashes arose with the best creature blue has ever seen (even better than Delver IMO), made a top 2 finish at a large SCG event (2x of them even), but still hasn't made it back to being a DTB. It should be. They should all be afraid. They aren't. This needs to be far more aggressive than Jace will allow for.


Deadpool: I don't play Abrupt Decay in the main. If I did, I would only run one, and it would either replace one of my two ponders, or move the 4th StP to the board and drop it in there. I haven't had a problem with land drops, but I believe that has been helped in large part to the ponders, and having an insanely stable manabase (4 basics, 8 fetches). As for the combo matchup; Game one is probably theirs. Things must go almost perfect for you, as a single discard spell and at best, a Pierce + FoW, maybe a blue card is probably bar none the very best the deck can give you pre-sideboard. However, post-board, they are looking at what transforms into a mess for them, as far as I'm concerned. 3 Clique, 2 MM, 2 Flusterstorm, a 3rd Pierce (Or swan song), and another discard spell (IoK). All that in addition to the md'ed 4 Force, 2 Pierce, 4 discard, I feel...good on games 2 and 3.

Sideboard (for your convenience):
3 V. Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce//Swan Song
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Zealous Inquisition
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Supreme Verdict

Lots of Inquisition in there lol. I don't really miss the Engineered Explosives I used to run as a 2-of. If I were to go to a Tournament tomorrow, I may play IoK in the main over my MisD. If I did, IoK in the board would become Duress to play a total of 6 discard in my 75, a key element of the original DeathBlade builds. May still happen. Other than Hymn and the very rare Sinkhole, I haven't found it to be extremely great (MisD). Thoughts?

pe5e
12-15-2013, 05:26 PM
Pe5e: No basics and no wastelands. No thanks. One or the other, both is bad, neither is worse. Duals + Fetches being the manabase isn't something I'm prepared to do. Also, too many one-ofs in your creature base. Strix is good in numbers or equipped or with recursion. It's not so hot as a singleton. I tried running only 2 and I hated it. I think 3 is right. Otherwise, strengthen your game plan; drop it all together and play more Snapcasters. The pre-TNN lists were awesome. I think we should probably be a lot closer to those lists than we are. Jace is a topic I'm going to drop, but only after I say it one final time: Jace sucks here. I get it. You dropped 4-500 dollars on a playset and you wanna play him. Fine. There's a reason, though, that DeathBlade used to be a DTB, and then died, and then from the ashes arose with the best creature blue has ever seen (even better than Delver IMO), made a top 2 finish at a large SCG event (2x of them even), but still hasn't made it back to being a DTB. It should be. They should all be afraid. They aren't. This needs to be far more aggressive than Jace will allow for.

I used to play wastelands, but in 90% of the time i only needed it for Grove of the Burnwillows. But with True-Name Nemesis p. fire has became a lot easier to deal with. Another note to the basic lands. I cant see where they are good enough agianst wasteland. If you can only fetch one Basic your other lands which are duals get wasted and you are screwed anyway because the Island you fetched isnt a Tundra for example. Give the nonbasic manabase a try i might suprise you.
Like a said the split between Strix and Mage might change, but most likely the strix has to go. Sword of Fire and Ice is played again, True-Name Nemesis doenst care about it and it get hit by -1/-1 effects. But it is still huge against Lilliana and tempo decks.
On the Jace side and why Deathblade died some time ago: in my oppion Deathblade/Esperblade should not be a midrange deck. Having a countersuit with discard and resilient threats was the strength of the deck, and then people started to cut bob for Geist of Saint Traft und moved Force to the Sb. what you had then was just a worse midrange deck than Shardless BUG and Jund. The control aspect is the key to this deck and removing this part wont improve this deck imo(especially for geist, that card is just so bad). Jace gives the deck a card to overwelm your oppent with CA and makes sure you dont lose the attrition war. The only good reson to cut him down is that True-Name Nemesis deals with him. But ones you deal with Nemesis you just get ahead and win the mirror on the spot most of the times. Only because the deck is expensive btw does not mean that i play card only because i like those card. They all have a reson to be in here.



Deadpool: I don't play Abrupt Decay in the main. If I did, I would only run one, and it would either replace one of my two ponders, or move the 4th StP to the board and drop it in there. I haven't had a problem with land drops, but I believe that has been helped in large part to the ponders, and having an insanely stable manabase (4 basics, 8 fetches). As for the combo matchup; Game one is probably theirs. Things must go almost perfect for you, as a single discard spell and at best, a Pierce + FoW, maybe a blue card is probably bar none the very best the deck can give you pre-sideboard. However, post-board, they are looking at what transforms into a mess for them, as far as I'm concerned. 3 Clique, 2 MM, 2 Flusterstorm, a 3rd Pierce (Or swan song), and another discard spell (IoK). All that in addition to the md'ed 4 Force, 2 Pierce, 4 discard, I feel...good on games 2 and 3.

Sideboard (for your convenience):
3 V. Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce//Swan Song
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Zealous Inquisition
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Supreme Verdict

Lots of Inquisition in there lol. I don't really miss the Engineered Explosives I used to run as a 2-of. If I were to go to a Tournament tomorrow, I may play IoK in the main over my MisD. If I did, IoK in the board would become Duress to play a total of 6 discard in my 75, a key element of the original DeathBlade builds. May still happen. Other than Hymn and the very rare Sinkhole, I haven't found it to be extremely great (MisD). Thoughts?
G1 against combo isnt easy but far from unwinable. Attacking from different angels with Deathrite Shaman, Vendillion Clique, Counters and Discard goes a long way. You clearly arent favoured g1, but you still have good chances. After sbing having another angel in Meddling Mage is even harder for them. I am really confidant about postboard matches too. The Explosives are taking 2 things here: Outs vs Equipments as well as True-Name Nemesis(also against other stuff like Counter Balance, Tokens or being just a good sweeper against Elves, Maverick or Tempo). I played Zeolous Persecution before but i just is so narrow and suck against lord effects from merfolk or euiped Nemesis. I never tried Misdirection. It is probally too cute. Also because it needs a blue card which isnt always there.

rockout
12-15-2013, 10:54 PM
I need some help working on a list for mtgo. Some cards are just insanely too expensive to own in both paper and online like force and wasteland.

I have two lists:
http://i.imgur.com/YzaXs6S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/I8lnl2T.jpg

I'm trying to figure out the power of deathrite versus lingering souls right now. I realize the mana base is a little shakey. Daze and stifle are not super cheap options but it is a possibility. Obviously batterskull would help, working on that as well.

General thoughts on cards I might have missed?

pe5e
12-21-2013, 09:22 AM
Short update on my list:

The testing is going really well so far. I cut the Strix to go to 60 Cards, but soon added a Snapcaster Mage again since i think 14 is the right number for the creature slot and i want to keep the blue count high. 3 Mystics still seem right, never missed the last one. Tower is a beast since i wins the mirror, that cant be countered, discarded and dotches Thalias tax effect. Ruins hasnt shined yet, but it wasnt bad ether. I keep it for now, because recurring EE for the sb is pretty good right now. Jace still derserves its slots.
On another note to the sb:
D. Sphere, Manriki-gusari and Glen Eldendra Archmage are great and way too versatile. Glen Elendra is amazing against almost everything, just lockes out games and still being a flyer for our equipment. I might even play another one in the Sideboard, but space is thight.

Deadpool09
12-22-2013, 11:30 AM
I need some help working on a list for mtgo. Some cards are just insanely too expensive to own in both paper and online like force and wasteland.

I have two lists:
http://i.imgur.com/YzaXs6S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/I8lnl2T.jpg

I'm trying to figure out the power of deathrite versus lingering souls right now. I realize the mana base is a little shakey. Daze and stifle are not super cheap options but it is a possibility. Obviously batterskull would help, working on that as well.

General thoughts on cards I might have missed?
What's the manabass on the first list? Without foorce if will, the deck will take a hit, but spell pierce is not bad actually, but you should replace the snares with at least 2 counterspell.

jedi_gof
01-03-2014, 08:21 AM
Sad to see no useful posts recently regarding this deck. Most is budget, which in my opinion goes in another forum - sorry.

First:
Can someone shed a light on why they insist on keeping Jace, tms in their lists? In my experience they are, if not horrible, then worse then other?

Second:
Thoughts on wasteland? I also keep seeing alot playing 3-4 wastes, but I have hated them in testing, almost always wanting them to be a fetch or colored source.
I for one need som great input to even consider putting them back. We need a lot of colors by tur 1-3, like t1 discard, t2 bstorm + plow into turn 3 tnn.

Let get some lists up you guys along with your thoughts behind the choices.

I belive the core is as follows
21-23 Lands

4 discard
4 Brainstorm
3 FOW

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sofai

4 SFM
4 TNN
4 DRS
1 Clique
Did i miss anything/include too much? Can we agree on this as core of deathblade?

My current list:


Creatures:
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
18

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
21

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Tropical Island
21

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Swan Song
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Above list is tuned to beat a creature heavy meta main, and to crush combo post board.
So far the list are performing admirably although my twins are seriously limiting my play-time opportunities, with various tweaks - not much has changed since our list from DLM (page 9)

Considerations:

Cards i have been wanting to include or test out include:
Main
Cryptic command
Restoration Angel
board:
Notion Thief
Glen Elandra

Also in bonus section: Greedy 4c list(under development)

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swan Song
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari

blablub
01-03-2014, 08:41 AM
Regarding Wastelands i think you are right, i play only 2 to give me the chance to use the "turn 1 DRS turn 2 Waste into Stoneforge nuts"

About Jace i had the same feeling, that it's only a 4 Mana Brainstorm, but this is just the theory. There are sequences where you put a Jace on the clean board an win. Otherwise you need Walker against Control-Decks because they have too many Outs for Creatures (BUGstill, Miracles) which are on the Rise.

I don't like Strix, they are too fair and do nothing against Nemesis. They shine against Tempo Decks, wich are allready very good MatchUps if you are not too greedy.

By the way what do you think about Lili? i love the girl. She wins so many Games against Control, Combo and Tempodecks. Here is my List

4 DRS
4 Stoneforge
4 TNN
2 Snapcaster
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisiton
2 Jace
2 Liliana
4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
3 Usea
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island

SB:
3 Disfigure
3 Flusterstorm
1 Snapcaster
1 Sword of Feast/Famine
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Clique
1 Surgical Extraction


Like you i try to beat Combo Post-Board so i try to morph into some kind of "Flash Control", the Disfigure are so great because they do everything you want because they kill Delver and DRS which are the problematic creatures for this deck i think

thoughts? :)

jedi_gof
01-04-2014, 03:32 PM
Regarding Wastelands i think you are right, i play only 2 to give me the chance to use the "turn 1 DRS turn 2 Waste into Stoneforge nuts"
Your list is sans wastelands matey?


About Jace i had the same feeling, that it's only a 4 Mana Brainstorm, but this is just the theory. There are sequences where you put a Jace on the clean board an win. Otherwise you need Walker against Control-Decks because they have too many Outs for Creatures (BUGstill, Miracles) which are on the Rise.
Well I so far am yet to experince the lack of walkers as a bad thing, even against control. With 18 threats, a number of disruption etc i still find myself more often in spots where other cards in most scenarios is better.
But hey, thats my experince, and are your meta dominant with control i can get behind it.


I don't like Strix, they are too fair and do nothing against Nemesis. They shine against Tempo Decks, wich are allready very good MatchUps if you are not too greedy.
Strix i find is pseudoremoval, that cantrips and carries eqiupments - i am inclined to at some point shave some or all, as i agree they are not amongst the best creatures in the deck.


By the way what do you think about Lili? i love the girl. She wins so many Games against Control, Combo and Tempodecks. Here is my List
I too am very smitten with Lili, however this i find it is not the deck for it. i had 1-2 in testing for a while, and very rarely did the +1 ability appeal to me. In jund, or lingering souls blade decks, sure, but i find her lacking as there are simply not enough synergi with these list to warrent a 3 mana sorcery speed edict with an upside.

regarding your list it looks fine barring a few comments:
1: Thorn in my eye! "´Where's sofai? That might be the best piece of equipment right now for this deck. i find it almost always as #1 as it applies pressure, increses clock drastically and cantrips for you.
2: Walkers - i dont agree with them, but again meta calls or playstyle might cause you to include them
3; Your manabase fella! How on earth you reliably can cast lili w/o drs is beyond me. This is also on of the reason i cut her as she strains our manabase further. You have 9 lands that tap for mana that does not include black, in fact you have by my count 6 (1 citp tapped) black sources?
4: SB. Is sculler better than MM and E. Canonist for you? These are mwps in my MUs i find, and you havent room for either? 3x removals in disfure in addition to ZP is overkill i think also.

pe5e
01-04-2014, 05:52 PM
Amazing that that thread doesnt die :laugh:.

I think the biggest difference of all Deathblade lists is the deck type. Some players like to play Deathblade as a midrange( or even aggro like) deck, tempo deck and others like me play the deck more like a control deck. In my opinion the control type is the better one of those. I dont see a good reson to play cards like Geist of Saint Traft( or even Tarmogoyf :eyebrow:). In dont think this deck should be a worse version of jund or BUG. Deathblade shines through its reactive nature, which can turn into pressure very fast, but also can grid out games against control and midrange decks. That is also the reson i still play jace. It is a great way to get ahead in grindy mu and just wins if it doesnt get answered.

This is my list:
//Manabase
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Tower of the Magistrate
//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Equip
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
//Removel and CA/CQ
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

My personal core would be:

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Counterspell
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte

+ X meta calls

(no Sword of Fire and Ice as a core card, because it is amzing in some mu, but almost useless in others)
@jedi_goyf:
- what is your reson behind cutting Jace? Because it dies to Nemesis? That problem can be anwsered and then Jace just ran away with the game most of the time. I would like to hear your reson here. Since you not really have 18 threats(Baleful Strix or Deathrite Shaman alone isnt a threat) Walkers are a nice way to pressure your oppenent from a diffrent edge.

- I played wastelands when i started playing Deathblade, but after TNN was released i could finally cut those. Most of the time they are just awful in a 3.5 colour deck. The only reson i played it was Grove of the Burnwillows. But with TNN, Sword of Fire and Ice and a good Sideboard P.Fire is a lot less powerful. I dont see why Deathblade should be playing this card right now. we arent tempo, want to cast our spells and have enough mana for equiping creatures with Batterskull. That is the reson i run no Basics. Basics in a 3.5 coloured deck doesnt work for me( but i also go a litte more into green). The only coulorless land i play is Tower, which is insanely powerful in Blade mirrors. I want to sucessful cast my stuff and recover fast from mana disruption. This manabase does that.

- i used to love Baleful Strix, but right now there are just to many things that stop it from being a removel. Jitte, TNN, Sword of Fire and Ice, -1/-1-effects and more stuff are there. If people stop playing Show and Tell and Miracles a bit then maybe it sees a comeback, but right now i see Snapcaster Mage > Baleful Strix.

- Liliana is obiously amazing at the moment but needs an entire diffrent deck. BB is hard and we dont have really like to discard most of the time. In a tempo like version it could still be good though.


Cards i have been wanting to include or test out include:
Main
Cryptic command
Restoration Angel
board:
Notion Thief
Glen Elandra

I never tried out Cryptic Command and Restoration Angel, but i think most of the time they are just worse then Vendillion Clique and Couterspell. If you have tested those let me know what you think.
Notion Thief and Glen Elandra are both huge blowouts if they resolve, but also very meta depented. For a small meta they are nice. In an open meta i think they are too special.

The 4c greed list of yours is truely greedy :wink:. Seems like Bantblade should be more streamlined and focused.

SORO
01-04-2014, 07:19 PM
I really love this deck: Michael Bonde (9/138)

Creatures (14)
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [10]
2 Dimir Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [7]
1 Ponder
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [23]
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
3 Flusterstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Engineered Plague
2 Dread of Night
1 Rest in Peace

Secretly.A.Bee
01-04-2014, 07:20 PM
There is little agreement on card choices from one build to the next other than the core of the list. I did a breakdown of card choices a page or few ago but pe5e and I can't agree on much and honestly there isn't a lot more than list sharing going on in this thread. I don't see it doing well in tournament play and not too many people are even trying to play this deck competitively. I agree on your assessment of both JtMS and wasteland in the archetype, jedi_gof. Both are just wasted slots that don't help this deck accomplish it's main objectives.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Edit : I tried delver in a build and I was pretty happy with it even though my instant/sorcery count was 22.

Deckerator
01-04-2014, 07:55 PM
Hey the last few days i thought about how i can create the best value out oft the following cards.
I don't know how to play it right.
i want to include the following cards. Maybe you can help me to make the best out of theme.

Creatures:

Tarmogoyf
True-Name Nemesis
Deathrite Shaman
stoneforge mystic
Baleful Strix
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion clique
Geist of Saint Traft
Knight oft the Reliquary


Spells:
Force of Will
Swords to Plowshares
Daze
Abrupt Decay
Brainstorm
Ponder
Thoughtseize
Vindicate

Equipments:

Umezawa's Jitte
Batterskull

Lands:
XX

Like i have read from other posts before i think playing Jace in a TNN heavy meta isnt good. Therefore i would cut the Jace's

Maybe you can help me to make the best out oft this cards.
I like playing TNN and goyf in one deck because both are powerhouses.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-04-2014, 08:10 PM
Goyf and tnn are awesome together and so is tnn and mystic. However, the issue you encounter at this point is a large amount of cards competing for the cmc2 slot. I am pretty sure that this is the juncture at which point you decide if you are playing bug or uwx. I don't see all 4 main creatures being able to be squeezed into one list and still be able to optimally gain value.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

thecrav
01-04-2014, 08:33 PM
Played Deathblade today for the first time since it first started becoming popular. I ran as close to Bertonchini's Vegas list as I could without diving into boxes to find less-used cards.

Went 2-1-2 with the second draw being me scooping someone else into top 8 so that I could go home and eat delicious beef.

The first three rounds were all against Thresh and I went loss, draw, win. I'm not sure whether to chalk that up to variance or me getting used to the deck again.

Round 1 Simon must've cast Forked Bolt at least six times in three games. Even if it can't hit TNN, that card gets a lot of work done against deathblade.

I don't remember which opponents it was against, but there were two things I really remember. First, Jace got a lot of work done. Bouncing Delver and controlling their top deck (really, in either order) is pretty great for making him not matter.

The other thing I did that was super awesome in this matchup involved paying close attention to the graveyard and the regular meta. "Oh you've got 4 bolts in the 'yard and no creatures? Yea, I'm gonna go ahead and go to 2" At one point, I had wasted or vindicated every colored land (starting with trops) except for one Volcanic. He fetched and failed to find twice in attempts to flip Delver.

Round 4 was GWB stuff. I wont' call it "Junk" because is wasn't the "Junk" deck, it was just... well, stuff.

The one trop maindeck ended up being a big deal as it saved me from "swing for game" 3 times in game one before I killed all of his stuff and came back for the win. Game 2 I brainstormed 4 times off two brainstorms (AWW YEA SNAPCASTER) and fatesealed him to death.

Round 5 was pure Esper. Great games. Game 3, between the two of us we list ten life to thoughtseize in the first 5 turns. We drew with him in a fairly commanding position and I scooped him in to top 8.

I'd definitely play the deck again, but I need to pick up the few things that make it a fully refined deck rather than just the pile of goodstuff that I built.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-04-2014, 08:39 PM
I hated Bertoncini's build. It just went belly - up in the finals to Boettcher on sneak and show, although I think that was at Providence. He ran 3 (!) Wastelands, jace AND lili. Freakin stupid.

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blablub
01-05-2014, 08:03 AM
Thanks for your Responses Jedi :)

i'm sorry about the Wastelands, at first i had -1 one fetch - 1 Island +2 Wastelands, but i wanna have the second Island now with Blood Moon decks on the Rise.

I dont wanna cut my Walkers because of Miracle, They have Terminus and Verdict and i think that it's very hard to win with only creatures against them, Lili is a house in this MatchUp. The Mana for Lili is ok, sure double black is not easy but with a Basic Swamp it's fine because all Fetchies can fetch for the second black if needed.

Sworf of Fire/Ice is awesome but i don't see any place for it. In Fact i don't think its neccessary. Jitte with Nemesis races the same and opposing Nemesis isn't a problem for my list. Maybe i can play it in the Jitte-Slot, in many MatchUps Jitte kills 1 creature a turn,too and you can get Lifelink from Skull

The SB is pretty experimental. The three disfigures are mainly for the elves-matchUp, which is really tough if you opponent knows his deck. Although they kill all problematic creatures, Stoneforge, DRS and Delver

Hatebears i'm not sure. I hate Meddling Mages because if you name something without information, they can have the other part. Cannonist is the best against Storm obv. but it does nothing against Show/tell. Mages are good here, but they have so many outs against this guy (pyroclasm, blasts), i thought about Sculler, Discard with Legs is pretty nice against both Decks.

About the Comment of Playstyle
I wanna play Esper-Control with DRS, I'm not playing Rock with Blue ;)

Deckerator
01-05-2014, 08:32 AM
Goyf and tnn are awesome together and so is tnn and mystic. However, the issue you encounter at this point is a large amount of cards competing for the cmc2 slot. I am pretty sure that this is the juncture at which point you decide if you are playing bug or uwx. I don't see all 4 main creatures being able to be squeezed into one list and still be able to optimally gain value.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

That means you would not play Stoneforge , TNN and Goyf in one deck? With the rise of TNN i like playing black and white for global effect cards like Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague.
On the other i like playing blue for TNN because its so good.
And Goyf is such a good creature that nobody wanna miss.

Maybe i can create a UWB list with a green splash just for goyf?
Or what would you suggest me?

Secretly.A.Bee
01-05-2014, 10:44 AM
So far it has meant no goyf, not no stoneforge. Stoneforge gives my tnn more power by protecting it from the majority of cards that kill it. Goyf is better when it comes to a singular threat, but I'm pretty sure that mystic is the best of the two when paired with tnn.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Deadpool09
01-05-2014, 05:36 PM
3 true name nemesis
2 snapcaster mage
4 stoneforge mystic
4 deathrite shaman
2 baleful strix

4 brainstorm
1 ponder
3 fow
2 spell pierce
2 toughtsieze
2 iok
4 swords to plowshares
1 detention sphere


2 jtms

1 batterskull
1 umezawas jitte

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 academy ruins
1 plains
1 swamp
1 isalnd
1 creeping tar pit

regarding wasteland, i think its fine to run 3. i remember todd anderson and bbd used to run 3 also with a greedier mana base, (splashing green for decay). it enables for really good early plays like turn 1 drs to turn 2 wasteland then sfm, or turn one iok, then turn 2 wasteland, swords their guy, or drs. it works well too if your playing in a fair meta as you can recover faster mana-wise against rug , uwr, or d and t.(karakas and ports are a thing). it really depends on how you play and what decks you play against. this is one of the decks in legacy that is hard to find a stock list, because its always felxible. so its wrong to assume that one list is not valid compared to ther other, (unless the card choices make absolute no sense). jtms- there are events where i'd play him and he'll take over games, and there are times when he is garbage. my meta is 60% combo, even still i cant cut him off completely, at worse he's a fow fodder. i tried putting dak confidants in place of it, but i get punished severly for it. im thinking of putting lily, but i dont have the card. baleful strix is guaranteed value when it hits the table. it does so much for the deck. sword carrier, blocks bigger guys, forcing oppoents to bolt it, thus leaving me open to play sfm.
my version of deathblade is built to have game vs anything, hence more counters and discards, like the orignal esper stoneblade. while the manabase is very solid, it is still something im working on. the deck will work with 3 basics, especially with drs. the creeping tar pit will get replaced by a thrid tundra once i get bak my vards from a friend. academy ruins is soemyhing that works with the deck specially in the mirror, when its all about the manriki gusaris. plus it can bring back baleful strix in crucial moments.
just because you dint see this deck in the top 8 anymore doesnt mean, its dead or anything. the diffrnce between top 8 and 16 are litterly 1 win or sometimes just tiebreakers. seeing what scg has in their list does not mean a consistent deck like this is dead. deathblade is still a fine choice.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-05-2014, 10:15 PM
The "original" DeathBlade ran 6 discard spells and some even ran a 7th in the side, and the "stock" DeathBlade list ran 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 wasteland, that's both the dark confidant version and the geist version. My 4 color list runs 4 basics (2 island 1 Swamp 1 plains). Must be the reason why I don't like the wastelands.

I've been watching the lists, and even top16 death blade builds are few and far between.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Secretly.A.Bee
01-05-2014, 10:28 PM
Sorry double post

slikwilly
01-06-2014, 06:08 PM
I've been running this list locally for a while now and I'm happy with it. Main deck is tuned for creature battles, the board brings in a bunch of combo hate. Only changes I've been contemplating are 1) reducing the equipment count to possibly get a Vindicate in somewhere, and 2) reworking the mana base. I hate having the Scrubland and Tropical. Was thinking about going something more like:
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland

The current deck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Scrublands
1 Tropical Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Swan Song
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution

Deadpool09
01-06-2014, 08:15 PM
I've been running this list locally for a while now and I'm happy with it. Main deck is tuned for creature battles, the board brings in a bunch of combo hate. Only changes I've been contemplating are 1) reducing the equipment count to possibly get a Vindicate in somewhere, and 2) reworking the mana base. I hate having the Scrubland and Tropical. Was thinking about going something more like:
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland

The current deck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Scrublands
1 Tropical Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Swan Song
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution

seems solid, i just dont get the tropical for. id run tropical and savanah if i have abrupt decay mainboard.
but if your not running that much green, i think theres much use for it except the life gain fron drs.

SORO
01-07-2014, 09:21 AM
seems solid, i just dont get the tropical for. id run tropical and savanah if i have abrupt decay mainboard.
but if your not running that much green, i think theres much use for it except the life gain fron drs.

Now you are writing, do you think my deck (the one which is above) is solid? I need an opinion!!

Deadpool09
01-07-2014, 10:44 AM
Now you are writing, do you think my deck (the one which is above) is solid? I need an opinion!!
i love the addition of these 2 (bob and lily) the combination of lily and bob can be better than jace at times, it helps ou pull ahead mid game, espeially when you find our self durdling around . id run them myself if i own lily. but id cut them down to 3 each.
i think running no form of counterspells is risky, unless its a meta call for where you play,. and i dont see much use for green source except for the drs ability. personally, im a big fan of running 2-3 basics in deathlade, as you can establish your mana and board presence with shaman
aside for that, it looks good in paper

Quasim0ff
01-07-2014, 11:13 AM
Sad to see no useful posts recently regarding this deck. Most is budget, which in my opinion goes in another forum - sorry.

First:
Can someone shed a light on why they insist on keeping Jace, tms in their lists? In my experience they are, if not horrible, then worse then other?

Second:
Thoughts on wasteland? I also keep seeing alot playing 3-4 wastes, but I have hated them in testing, almost always wanting them to be a fetch or colored source.
I for one need som great input to even consider putting them back. We need a lot of colors by tur 1-3, like t1 discard, t2 bstorm + plow into turn 3 tnn.

Let get some lists up you guys along with your thoughts behind the choices.

I belive the core is as follows
21-23 Lands

4 discard
4 Brainstorm
3 FOW

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sofai

4 SFM
4 TNN
4 DRS
1 Clique
Did i miss anything/include too much? Can we agree on this as core of deathblade?

My current list:


Creatures:
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
18

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
21

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Tropical Island
21

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Swan Song
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Above list is tuned to beat a creature heavy meta main, and to crush combo post board.
So far the list are performing admirably although my twins are seriously limiting my play-time opportunities, with various tweaks - not much has changed since our list from DLM (page 9)

Considerations:

Cards i have been wanting to include or test out include:
Main
Cryptic command
Restoration Angel
board:
Notion Thief
Glen Elandra

Also in bonus section: Greedy 4c list(under development)

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swan Song
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari

I think Cryptic would be an amazing fit in this deck, and it would most likely benefit a lot more from cryptic than jace, tbh.

BVB09
01-16-2014, 09:09 AM
Hi guys, I have just seen this list uploaded today
1st of 190
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12577&iddeck=92213
I'm completely confused about the 2 maindeck Llawan
I hadn't seen those maindeck until now.
The list:

Deck Name: Llawan Blade Position: 1
DeathBlade Ping Wëi Lu

Creatures [16]
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

Instants [16]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares


Sorceries [7]
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [19]
1 Bayou
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Telperion
01-16-2014, 09:29 AM
Look at the top 8. If the metagame is overrun by Merfolk, Delver, TNN decks then Llawan is just an I win button. Against UWR, Llawan + any kind of board presence is game. Interesting sideboard tech, but kind of expensive to be maindeck.

BVB09
01-16-2014, 09:35 AM
Look at the top 8. If the metagame is overrun by Merfolk, Delver, TNN decks then Llawan is just an I win button. Against UWR, Llawan + any kind of board presence is game. Interesting sideboard tech, but kind of expensive to be maindeck.

That's why I thought, he obviously did a good metagame research, as the top 8 shows. But even though, 191 people means having to play against a lot of decks. Having 2 maindeck looks strange...
And 2 more in the SB? She's legendary, very few decks run 4-copies of the same legend, I can only think of Thalia...

Qweerios
01-16-2014, 12:27 PM
If I want to play no more than 14 creatures in this deck, what is better between a pair of Snapcasters and a pair of Cliques? I currently play 2 Snaps main and 2 Cliques side but I could always drop Snaps altogether, move Cliques to the main, and free up 2 SB slots.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-16-2014, 12:40 PM
I love delver in this deck. I'm happy about his finish. He put llawan in the jace spot. The dazes aren't bad. Creatures, are you playing tnn? If you are then I'd stay with snaps but otherwise I'd go cliques.

Edit:


And 2 more in the SB? She's legendary, very few decks run 4-copies of the same legend, I can only think of Thalia...

Well I'd say Griselbrand and Emrakul are on that list in Sneak and show and Griselbrand in reanimator.

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Deadpool09
01-19-2014, 04:40 PM
I played the creator of Jund depths a week before he win in scg. I was playin in armadas weekly legacy event. It was r1, at first I thought he was layin lands, with tabernacle and life of the loam. I blew him out easily with drs and wasteland then he scooped. G2 I found out he was playing a hybrid deck so I didn't know what I was playin against. G3. He locked me out and won via dark depths. I wasn't prepared . Anyways it's funny he didn't made top 8 of that event then a week after, he won scg. Point is, sometimes tnn isn't enough to win the game alone, Because they will kill sfm , plays decay, and land lock us. I think my list of 2-3 basics is even more justified now more than ever. The deck will operate with basics even without drs. I'm thinking of putting decays back in, in response to LIly and the like. I think jtms is a little bit weaker now, as soon as I get my own lily is put her and bobs Lin the deck .
The mana base would look somehthing Like this
3 strand
1 marsh flats
2 delta
1 misty
1 catacombs
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrub
1 savanah
1 tropical
1 island
1 plains
1 swamp
3 wasteland
1 Karakas

Qweerios
01-20-2014, 04:04 PM
Is it a crime to favor Ponders over Jaces? It seems like we either face tempo decks, combo decks, or TNN-midrange decks nowadays. Jace isn't great against any of those and Ponder is good against every deck. Liliana seems to be the only Planeswalker worthwhile at the moment.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-20-2014, 04:16 PM
With Spirit of the Labrinth being a thing now I think Bob is best. Ponder is just bad in the face of this beast of a hatekitty.

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Qweerios
01-21-2014, 02:28 AM
Bob isn't exactly a blue card though... and ends up costing a lot of life with 4 TS, 10 fetches, and 4 FoW.

Deadpool09
01-21-2014, 05:05 PM
I'm just wondering what is every one else's sb now that the meta is somewhat fairer. Mine would look like this:
1 fow
3 tormods crypt
2 supreme verdict
3 meddling Mage
2 fluster storm
2 surgical extraction
1 sword of fire and ice
1 manriki gusari