[Deck] San Diego Zoo - Don't feed the animals.

[DavidHernandez]

Ok, below is a deck that was designed by Chris Montero, Mike Torissi, and Dave Hernandez.

San Diego Zoo -- G/R/w

4 goblin legionnaire
4 nimble mongoose
3 werebear
4 blastoderm
3 savannah lions

4 lightning bolt
4 incinerate
4 fire/ice

4 swords to plowshares
2 tithe

4 isocron scepter

3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
4 plateau
4 taiga
4 savannah
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains

Side:
4 hidden gibbons
2 honorable passage
2 ray of revelation
2 naturalize
2 artifact mutation
3 mother of runes

This list went 28-0-2 and won at least 4 tournaments (and came in 2nd once, after an ID in the finals with Landstill, and tiebreakers were in favor of Landstill).

San Diego is very competitive. Half of the players are lethal, and the tournaments are all sanctioned.

The deck has a ton of removal available to it, and all of the removal fits on a Scepter. Some of the removal fills the role of card-drawing (Fire/Ice).

The deck is redundant enough to pull threats and tends to topdeck like a champ.

This build has elements of Gro, but notice that it utilizes non-targetables, or creatures that can protect others (Goblin Legionnaires and Mother of Runes). The deck is hard to beat when Lions and Mongoose are slapping you in the head while burn and STP remove the opposing creature base.

The deck gives a good game to ATS and Landstill while providing enough threats to make it viable all-around (I single out these two decks because they are so good right now).

Chris wants to run Ravenous Baloth and Troll Asetic, and is testing variations now.

For some very old school Zoo Deck references, here are two decks from a billion years ago:

"The Zoo" as played by Scott Johns,
TI Championship, Nov '96

4 Kird Ape
2 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Regrowth
4 Savannah Lions
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

3 Psionic Blast
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Timewalk
1 Time Twister
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Black Vise
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

3 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Strip Mine
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Savannah
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Tundra

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Guerilla Tactics
3 Meekstone
4 Whirling Dervish
1 Zuran Orb

and

"The NY Zoo", Nov '96 - Jul '97

4 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
1 Wheel of Fortune

2 Ernham Djinn

1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library
4 Serendib Efreet

1 Psionic Blast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pyroblast
1 Timewalk
1 Time Twister
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Balance

1 Demonic Tutor
4 Black Vise
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

4 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Taiga

Sideboard:
1 Disenchant
1 Stormbind
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Maze of Ith
1 Control Magic
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 Mind Harness
2 Ernham Djinn

Bolt, Incinerate, STP provided removal while Lions, Apes, and cheap fliers dealt damage.

In a way, Isochron Scepters replace the 4x Black Vise by providing a 3-damage-per-turn potential, with the added bonus of giving you a spot removal option.

Chris didn't go back in time and try to recreate Zoo, he just built a deck that utilized Scepters, removal, and cheap (but hard to remove) creatures, but I think the similarities to the Vintage counterpart lend support to the Legacy build's viability.

The combination has been remarkably consistent in it's card-drawing and it's ability to win.

The deck is still considered New and Developmental, so if you want to discuss potential changes or critique it, feel free, but don't dismiss it outright, because it's strong and has proven itself in So. Cal.

Dave

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

What does the deck do that Survival Advantage doesn't?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Seems extremely similar to Garv.dec. I have to wonder about Tithe and Scepter though. Tithe in particular doesn't look like it does ANYTHING for you that Birds wouldn't be better at. Troll Ascetic also seems like it madly wants to be fit in.

[DavidHernandez]

What does the deck do that Survival Advantage doesn't?
That's kind of like saying "What does Survival Advantage have that ATS doesn't?"

There are similarities, but (as we know) even a few cards can make a huge difference in how a deck plays out. SD Zoo is a different 'animal' entirely--it has it's own 'identity'.


. I have to wonder about Tithe and Scepter though. Tithe in particular doesn't look like it does ANYTHING for you that Birds wouldn't be better at.
Well, Tithe doesn't fry to Fire/Ice...and it can fetch permanents while thinning the deck.


Troll Ascetic also seems like it madly wants to be fit in.
Yeah, I think so too. I'd actually like to see them in there in place of Goblin Legionnaires, but that might require a slight shift in the mana base.

Dave

[Zilla]

Dave gave me the decklist via PM a few days ago, and I have to concur with the following:

1. It's very very different from RG Survival. To answer the question of what it can do that RG doesn't, well, it can control the board more effectively. Swords to Plowshares alone sees to that. Isochron Scepter makes for a much more controllish feel. I think the comparison to RG Survival isn't apt; a comparison to SuperGro (despite the lack of Dryads) would perhaps be a btter comparison.

2. I agree that Trolls need to find their way in here as well, and that Legionnaires are probably the thing to drop for them. In my testing, the manabase was often to tight to effectively save mana to use their abilities and cast everything in my hand at the same time. Troll's ability doesn't actually need to be used that often, so it shouldn't be an issue.

3. I agree that Tithes are kind of out of place, considering there are only 5 targets for it in the deck.

[DavidHernandez]

In my testing, the manabase was often to tight to effectively save mana to use their abilities and cast everything in my hand at the same time.
Today Chris told me that he had some concerns about the mana base, so that goes along with what you guys are saying. Maybe the Tithes can be dropped for actual land (Maybe 1 r/g and 1 g/w pain land).

Beyond that, the theme among comments (and my own thoughts) are that Troll Ascetic needs to be in the deck.

Dave

[Kundalini]

I agree with any of the suggested changes.
More specifically,

-4 goblin legionaire
-1 mountain

+3 troll ascetic
+1 Isamaru
+1 windswept heath

Notes: tithe targets are actually 9 (4 plateaus, 4 savannas, 1 plains), so tithe stays in(can even be a scepter target itself!!!); I don't like (personal tastes) incinerate, but i realize that it's necessary as removal/burn and I can't find anything better in replacement (maybe magma jet? testing it!)

[NeoMike]

Uhm, how about...
-2 Goblin Legionaire
-4 Blastoderm

+3 Troll Ascetic
+2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
+1 Windswept Heath

And as for the Tithe try
-2 Tithe
-1 Isochron Scepter

+3 Birds of Paradise (Try to add #4, I just cant see what to drop.)
Good luck.

[DavidHernandez]

-4 Blastoderm
I don't suggest this. The Blastoderm's are key in this deck. The only thing I dont like about Hounds is that they are legendary. You almost don't care about having some of these creatures get Fire/Ice'd or STP'd or Bolted, as long as they can deal a couple of points of damage (or block an incoming threat). They buy time for the Blastoderms and Removal to kick in.

It really runs well.

I DO like Troll though. Such a beating...

Dave.

[cartman34]

Troll is great but I would think twice if I would cut Legionaire.
He is really great creature and I am sure you will rarely have any problems casting it with a larger amount of fetchlands.
He is sooo good against aggro.

The Deck looks really competitive imo.I am sure it can beatdown control and get rid of all aggro crits.

[SpikeyMikey]

The biggest problem the deck has is G/W. More specifically, it has a problem with Baloth. With similar creatures the ground gets tangled up, but Ravenous Baloth allows G/W to effectively neuter his burn, especially in games 2 and 3 when Naturalize comes in out of the board to deal with Scepter.

We've been testing the deck minus the white, going through several builds of G/R. The deck we finally settled on for this week is heavily metagamed to avoid the glut of targeted removal in the field right now, between plows and burn. Trolls, Derms, Baloths, and Phantom Centaurs. You gonna be coming down Dave?

[DavidHernandez]

We've been testing the deck minus the white, going through several builds of G/R. The deck we finally settled on for this week is heavily metagamed to avoid the glut of targeted removal in the field right now, between plows and burn. Trolls, Derms, Baloths, and Phantom Centaurs. You gonna be coming down Dave?
I won't be there this week, but I can play on Nov. 26th. I'm getting 2 to 3 hours of sleep 3 days a week and it's really affecting me in a negative way. The academy is fun, but it's taking a toll.

If you're headed in the direction of running RG, you might consider dropping Scepters in favor of Survival of the Fittest. I'm looking at playing RG Survival Advantage, or a variant of the San Diego Zoo that uses Troll Asetic. My reasoning is based on this data:

http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin....3;st=40 (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=622)

Can you PM a your RG list to me so I can do some testing? I'll see what I can do tonight and then send you some comments.

Dave.

[NavyJoe]

Well if the deck's 28-0-2, why would it need tweeking? It seems like your only problem is against land still. Which I don't understand. You should be able to outrace land still easily. They have to use their turn 4 to drop the disk. You should be able to win by turn 5. Have you considered Lava Spike. I know it's the retarded brother of Bolt...It's still 3 for R.

[DavidHernandez]

Well if the deck's 28-0-2, why would it need tweeking?
Nothing's perfect. The deck fell last Friday night to mana screw. And, some decks just have answers.

Landstill is played here and has proven to be our stongest control deck. It's also piloted by Jamison Culp, who has earned my respect for being an outstanding player (especially with Landstill).

No one has played UW Scepter or BBS/w and I wonder how the Zoo would perform against those.

In any case, I think Troll Asetic needs to be in the build, even if nothing else gets changed.

Dave.



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1106755917

[Obfuscate Freely]

I liked the look of this deck and I decided to run a version of it at my weekly tourney (yesterday).

I'm not claiming this list is optimal by any means, but I'll post it for reference:

Beaters
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Blastoderm
3x Werebear
3x Troll Ascetic

Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Fire/Ice
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Naturalize

Card Advantage
4x Isochron Scepter

Mana
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Savannah
1x Plateau
3x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains

Sideboard
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Choke
3x Mother of Runes
2x Night Soil
2x Disenchant
2x Erase

The card differences can be summed up as:

-4 Goblin Legionnaire
-3 Savannah Lions
-2 Tithe

+4 Mogg Fanatic
+3 Troll Ascetic
+2 Naturalize

-3 Plateau
-1 Taiga
-1 Savannah

+2 Windswept Heath
+1 Wooded Foothills
+2 Forest

Just from looking at the deck, I disliked the apparent lack of a base color. Fetchlands make the 4/4/4 dual setup obsolete anyway. By cutting duals for fetches, you increase the ability of the deck to function off of basic lands. Extra fetches also offer increased deckthinning and quicker threshold. As far as accessing colors reliably even through disruption, I feel that this manabase is close to optimal. It is very solid.

I cut the Tithes because they fetch offcolor basics only. Even the original build only runs 8 other white cards, and I only have 4 in the maindeck. I'm not completely convinced that 20 lands is enough without Tithe, but so far it has been sufficient.

I tested Goblin Legionnaires a little bit but was unimpressed. Fanatic went in in their place largely because it kills mana creatures more efficiently (and on turn 1), and because Legionnaires requires you to have WRR available to use effectively.

Troll Ascetic replaced Lions because the deck didn't seem to really want the pure aggression of a vanilla 2/1. Also, more untargetable creatures can't be bad. The fact that cards like Shackles and FTK are terrible against this deck is huge.

After playing the deck in the tournement, I came to a few tentative conclusions about these and other card choices.

First of all, Troll was a lot weaker than I expected. This impression may have been caused by seeing it in my hand alongside Blastoderm all too often. I guess it was that I always spent the early turns trying to blow up everything my opponent played, instead of curving out into creatures - 3rd turn Troll, 4th turn 'derm never happened. Instead, I would reach the point where I wanted to drop a fattie and abuse Scepter to ride him home, and in that situation 'Derm is just better than Troll. The untargetability of Troll is good though; I may try Blurred Mongoose in its place.

That is the biggest problem with the deck - Scepter is a mana-hungry whore. Thus slimming the curve seems ideal. Blastoderm is freaking nuts, though. He stays in.

Having maindeck Naturalizes is invaluable, and I think I want to up the count to 3.

Magma Jet would be really nice to have I think. How can we fit that in? Would replacing Trolls with it weaken the threat density too much?

I'm going to keep testing this deck, since I like how it plays and how many options are open to it. Anybody else working on it?

[Carney2k4]

I've been testing this deck, and the Blurred Mongoose is working alot better than the Trolls. Troll just wasn't cutting it at 3 CC.

[NeoMike]

I don't know why you dropped Goblin Legionnaire, I saw this deck this weekend, it did very well, and Goblin Legionnaire was never a dead card, in any matchup. Even if Mog Fanatic is 1 turn sooner, my Mom always said 2 damage was better than 1 damage... just my opinion.

[Carney2k4]

I think that there needs to be -1 Forest +1 Trop for Ice puposes.
I've been testing David's version, as well as Obfuscate's. Ob's has been working better so far, and I've decided to cut the Trolls for Blurred Mongoose's.

[Eclipt1c]

I don't know why you dropped Goblin Legionnaire, I saw this deck this weekend, it did very well, and Goblin Legionnaire was never a dead card, in any matchup. Even if Mog Fanatic is 1 turn sooner, my Mom always said 2 damage was better than 1 damage... just my opinion.
Yes 2 is better than one, but not when you consider that it costs 2 less mana, can come down on turn 2, can sac when you're tapped out, and is only one color, Fanatic seems much better to me.

Edit: Also being able to use it turn 1 is pretty good too.

[Carney2k4]

Yes 2 is better than one, but not when you consider that it costs 2 less mana, can come down on turn 2, can sac when you're tapped out, and is only one color, Fanatic seems much better to me.

Edit: Also being able to use it turn 1 is pretty good too.
Yeah, I'm more of a fan of Werebear turn 2. Also, they're are too many 2 mana cards for the curve, so the Fanatics work better.

[NeoMike]

I don't know... if they really want to waste removal on Goblin Legionnaire on turn 2, thats seems pretty dumb. So Mog Fanatic's sack ability doesn't seem to be as good even if he can sack on turn 1, unless under the circumstances of turn 1 Mother of Runes, which of course is why you have Lightning Bolt, and Swords to Plowshares. This deck really is all about beating down, and Mog just doesnt seem to do that for me.
Also, it isnt like this deck has mana problems. When I saw it ran in Mckinney, his mana base was so consistant, Turn 2 Goblin Legionnaire or Werebear every time(Platuea and Savanah).
But yet again, just my two/fifth's of a nickel. :D

[Carney2k4]

The deck doesn't have mana problems, its just the Legionnaire's made the 2 mana drops on the curve a little much. With Fanatic, you have 4 Mongoose and 4 Fanatic as your 1 drop creatures.

[NeoMike]

Yes, and before that it was Savanah Lions and Nimble Mongoose as your 1 drops, and your 2 drops were Goblin Legionnaire and Werebear, now its Blurred Mongoose and Werebear. So essentially its still the same mana curve as it was before just differant creatures. But this arguement might also depend on a metagame analysis. Obfuscate Freely, maybe you could give a quick metagame review for the good of the arguement?

[Carney2k4]

Exactly. I stopped running Legionnaires because the Blurred Mongoose seemed to be working better, and that took up my 2 CC slot, so i had to move something down or up being either Troll or Fanatic, I chose Fanatic. You already have Blastoderm as a beat stick, Troll just isn't needed.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Mike, if I tap out with Legionnaire on the board, it will most likely get toasted every time, since it would be the only targettable creature in the deck!

EDIT2: Yeah, I forgot about Werebear. But the point still stands.

As for my metagame, Fanatic got the nod in large part due to the Survival decks doing so well here. Offing their first turn mana creature is crucial. But I do admit that Fanatic is a poor beater.

And I agree that Blurred Mongoose seems better than Troll. I've liked them so far in testing.

EDIT: Is anyone else wondering about the effectiveness of Moms in the board? She can't save your creatures, and siding her in gives your opponent a good target for their removal.

Honorable Passage might be better in that slot, but it can't save untargettable creatures either...

So there needs to be a good anti-aggro sideboard card. Maybe Simoon?

[Carney2k4]

The Legionnaires just seemed like an overcosted burn spell most of the time, and you had to wait until turn 3 for him to be even that. I just don't think he was cutting it. In testing im around 23-1-0 without the Legionaires, and my only loss is to the godforsaken U/B Reanimator.

[DavidHernandez]

it costs 2 less mana
Fanatic only costs one less. Legionnaire is RW. However, you have to pay to use his abilities.

Blurred Mongoose could be great.

Chris cut white this week and added Ravenous Baloths and Troll Asetics. He went 4-0-1 (ID in the last round) and took 1st place out of ~30 players.

Simoons are a good idea if you see a lot of weenie/ATS/Surv. Advantage

dave



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1101156000

[Eclipt1c]

it costs 2 less mana
Fanatic only costs one less. Legionnaire is RW. However, you have to pay to use his abilities.

Sorry I wasn't clearer, but that's what I meant.

I really like the way the deck is shaping out, but I have to be hesitant regarding the inclusion of Trolls and Baloths. It seems to me like that the inclusion of these two would raise the mana curve a noticeable amount. I could be wrong however, but I do agree with the inclusion of Blurred Mongoose.

[Alfred]

I can see that this deck has a really nice assortment of creatures, but how is it getting a 23-0-4 records? That is rediculous! How does it beat ATS? How does it beat RG survival? I'm not insulting, I'm just curious as to how it pans out.

[Ewokslayer]

I can see that this deck has a really nice assortment of creatures, but how is it getting a 23-0-4 records? That is rediculous! How does it beat ATS? How does it beat RG survival? I'm not insulting, I'm just curious as to how it pans out.
I can answer the RG survival part.
It kills all the early mana critters, applies some pressure while the survival deck stalls on mana from havings its birds/elves killed.
Naturalizes/Disenchants the Survival and uses blastoderm to seal the deal.
The deck makes FTK suck hardcore turning a 2 for 1 for the survival deck to a 2 for 1 for the zoo deck.

I think RG survivals game could be improved by mulliganing hands with too many mana critters for more land heavy hands.

[NeoMike]

Chris cut white this week and added Ravenous Baloths and Troll Asetics. He went 4-0-1 (ID in the last round) and took 1st place out of ~30 players.
Simoons are a good idea if you see a lot of weenie/ATS/Surv. Advantage

I am curious as to the evolution of this deck, could we have stumbled upon something even greater than San Deigo Zoo? Maybe this deck can be completely altered into something as a variant of the origional deck. Like how SotF is used in so many deck variants. I want too see how far this testing goes, and see if we could maybe make it an entirely new deck, based off Zoo. Ever since the start of this deck, white has been cut out more and more. Mother of runes, gone; Savanah Lions, gone; Goblin Legionnaire, gone; Whats next, Swords to Plowshares? I think this deck is evolving into a deck that just might be able to survive our new meta.
Dave, think you can get a list from your friend, and possibly a match analysis? Thanks.

[Carney2k4]

I just tested 10 matches pre-board against U/G Madness, and lost 8. Their counters and 4/4 Trampling Flyers are tough, and Mongrel is horrible news. We need something to improve the U/G Matchup.

My Current List:
4-Nimble Mongoose
4-Mogg Fanatic
4-Blastoderm
3-Wearbear
3-Blurred Mongoose

4-Bolt
4-Incenerate
4-Fire/Ice
4-Swords to Plowshares
2-Naturalize

4-Isochron Scepter

4-Heath
4-Foothills
3-Taiga
3-Savannah
1-Plateau
1-Tropical Island
2-Forest
1-Plains
1-Mountain

Any suggestions?

[Obfuscate Freely]

River Boa is the best thing I can think of off the top of my head. It's pretty hard for them to deal with, but I don't know if it races fast enough.

Madness shouldn't be too bad if you can keep Mongrels off the board (with STP ideally), as Rootwallas and Aquamoebas are burned easily enough and Wurm trades with Werebear and dies to Blasty.

Wonder is probably scary though. Night Soil is a decent answer for it, since it creates dorks while removing Wonders. Unfortunately, it won't hit Deep Anals.

EDIT: Wing Snare? Needlestorm?

[DavidHernandez]

@Ob.Freely: You mentioned that you removed Tithes. What about borrowing some tech from Survival Advantage and running 2 Yavimaya Elders in Tithes place?


How does it beat ATS? How does it beat RG survival? I'm not insulting, I'm just curious as to how it pans out.
That's the thing about the west coast: NO ONE plays ATS. Yet. However, the way to slow those decks down with Zoo would be to burn and swords the creatures while laying out fat untargetables.

For Madness, sideboarded Worships could help, though they die to Naturalize and don't help your creatures get through.

I'm thinking about playing Survival Advantage, and SD Zoo worries me a bit because of all the removal and non-target critters.

Dave



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1101220956

[Carney2k4]

Although Night Soil hits dorks, it has to hit 2, and dies to Naturalize, and costs a mana to activate, all just for making a 1/1. I'm thinking Tormod's Crypt could work, and so would Needle Storm. Needle Storm would probably work better, but Crypt is useful against many other decks.

Hmm...Maybe Reprisal? That could seem like it would get the job done against Madness, as all your worried about is mainly Arrogant Wurms, and early Mongrels.

Also, David, why did the original list run Savannah Lions, when Kird Ape just seems entirely better. I was thinking about testing Kird Ape, but can't really think of a creature to take out.

[DavidHernandez]

Kirds are great. I'm not sure why Lions were in there. Seems like there are enough ways to get a forest that Kirds might be better. Note that both Kirds and Lions were in the old OLD Zoo builds in type 1.

I think they might be worth trying, especially if you want to drop white.

Dave.

[Peter_Rotten]

Just a quick post here.

Anyone else see this deck slowing morphing into Zilla Stompy - or the traditional R/G Zoo build - with the exception of the Scepters?

[DavidHernandez]

I know that the original intent was to keep it 3 colors (GRw), and that build was a huge success out here. I think what's being shown is that the deck does well in the west in it's original configuration due to the absense of certain decks (like ATS). In the east it's possible that the stronger build morphs the way you stated.

Does this thread need to die?

Dave.

[Eclipt1c]

I think that the creature base is sufficiently different than Zilla's to consider it a completely different variant of Zoo. I'm seriously doubting the removal of white however. The deck gains a great deal from STP and sideboard options. I'm wondering if you're really gaining anything worthwhile by dropping white.

@Madness. Worship and Night Soil (both together) sound like a good combination against Madness. Between Worship and Scepter-burn, the deck should succumb fairly easily as you should have more burn/threats than they do answers/drawing power/equivalent threats.

[Carney2k4]

I still say we shouldn't be going the Worship route, as Naturalize is bad news, and most U/G are running them MD. I'm thinking maybe something like FTK or Reprisal, or maybe Needlestorm.

[CavernNinja]

I'm speaking from a standpoint of a Survival deck, but from that viewpoint FtK is one of the best cards I have in the matchup. I kills all of the creatures in the deck when it comes into play (Mongrel included because they rarely want to throw away 3 cards to save him) and then trades with another one before he dies.

Another card that I really like in the match is Silklash Spider, I think that he may be too expensive to use in this deck however. Silklash does seem like a reusable Needle Storm which sounds really good. Needle Storm doesn't seem so hot, with some Madness decks only running 2 wonders they won't always get them, but in order to make Needle Storm good you really want to board in 3 or 4 so that you have it when you need it.

Reprisal sounds terrible. It kills 4 creatures and has the possiblity to kill 4 more but only if they play poorly. I couldn't see wanting to board in reprisal against madness in any way.

[Carney2k4]

Reprisal would be reserved for mainly killing Wurms, so you dont have to waste StPs on them, and can use them on Mongrels.

[Eclipt1c]

I have to agree that Reprisal is way to limited. Perhaps even Reciprocate to complement STP? Yes, yes I know the card is bad, but it's at least decent agaisnt Madness.

[Carlos El Salvador]

A few comments...

This deck, if it's getting trouble with madness, then I would STRONGLY recommend Sideboard 3-4 Sideboard Flame Tounge Kavu. They do kill 4/4 flying tramplers pritty good, and your oppoent probibly won't bother bringing in the waterfront bouncers due to all your creatures untargetability. You really can't burn off mongrals, so Swords is probibly useful here.

As far as ATS, I think that this deck would have at least an even matchup... it has the ability to burn away the mana accelration creatures, then it also has the fact that it has a lot of nice fat that ATS can't touch. Scepter dosn't help the matchup unless paired with Orim's Chant.

[Carney2k4]

I was thinking of FtK as well. Maybe like 2 REciprocate also. I'd go as far as to say that Madness is by far this decks worse matchup, barring Belcher and other combo decks.

[Obfuscate Freely]

RG Survival is really terrible as well, if they are running Troll Ascetic. That guy is just a nightmare for SD Zoo. If they have SoFI instead of Trolls, though, the match is much better.

The best thing I have come up with as SB against Troll is Fledgling Dragon or even Exalted Angel. The problem with that plan is that RG packs Duplicant and therefore gains inevitability. It should work well enough against non-Survival decks packing Troll though, and might do the job against Madness as well. Thoughts?

By the way, I feel that white strengthens this deck considerably. The addition of STP is huge, and so are the possible sideboard options. Cutting white makes the manabase stronger, but I believe it is strong enough as is and therefore the splash is warranted.

Scepter is also important to how the deck plays. It offers a source of continuous card advantage, which can win games by itself. Actually, I really want to fit Magma Jet in the deck so there is another good Scepter imprint besides F/I. I don't know if cutting Incinerate is a good idea though...

@DavidHernandez: Adding Elders would likely require putting a few more basics in the deck, wouldn't it? They also seem suboptimal because they cost 3 mana to play before fetching 2 lands. With this deck I rarely want to have more than 4 lands a game, so that puts them near the top of the curve, fetching unnecessary lands.

Still, Elder is a good card and might be worth testing. I guess my deck has the Naturalizes in place of the Tithes; would you cut them or cut the Blurred Mongooses?

[DavidHernandez]

By the way, I feel that white strengthens this deck considerably. The addition of STP is huge, and so are the possible sideboard options. Cutting white makes the manabase stronger, but I believe it is strong enough as is and therefore the splash is warranted.

I agree with this. White with this deck is strong.


Adding Elders would likely require putting a few more basics in the deck, wouldn't it? They also seem suboptimal because they cost 3 mana to play before fetching 2 lands.
That's true. I was trying to come up with Land fetching alternatives.


I would STRONGLY recommend Sideboard 3-4 Sideboard Flame Tounge Kavu.
Ok, several people have mentioned FtK now. It could take the slot held by Mothers in the board, or Legionnaires in the main. That also borrows proven tech from Survival Advantage. The difference is that the casting cost for FtK in Zoo looks large. It may not be an issue though, so this could be a great option.

Dave

[MattH]

The difference is that the casting cost for FtK in Zoo looks large.
Weren't you running four Blastoderms? FTK is better than Derm (especially against Madness) so just directly sub them if you like.

[CavernNinja]

What FtK doesn't do that Derm does is protective himself from fire. Flametounge is actualy quite vulnerable to death because of his 2 toughness, as a maindeck choice I would take the Derms, but against the decks that you want more removal (such as madness and maybe Survival Advantage) you could board in the Derms. Against Madness you could cut the Derms because of their lack of spot removal, but against Survival Advantage you probably want to cut something else because of the untargetability of Derm.

[DavidHernandez]

Weren't you running four Blastoderms? FTK is better than Derm (especially against Madness) so just directly sub them if you like.
I just don't want to run 8 4cc critters, although the deck might be able to support it with a tweak to the mana base. Outside of that, I think CavernNinja nailed it correctly on how to incorporate the FtK's.

Dave.

[JACO]

Weren't you running four Blastoderms? FTK is better than Derm (especially against Madness) so just directly sub them if you like.
I just don't want to run 8 4cc critters, although the deck might be able to support it with a tweak to the mana base. Outside of that, I think CavernNinja nailed it correctly on how to incorporate the FtK's.

Dave.
I don't want to give away all of the newest developments or testing of the deck in question (because it's not my place to give away a deck that's not mine), but I will add that you guys are missing an important addition to the deck:
Llanowar Elves

It's much better than Birds of Paradise, because it beats down, and this is a beatdown deck. It is there to power out second turn Troll Ascetics and third turn Blastoderms and Ravenous Baloths. It's basically a replacement for the Tithes, and allows you to run the same or fewer lands, while providing additional beatdown, and accelerating the deck at the same time.

How do I know all of this? Because I played against Chris (who designed the deck) in round 4 last week, and he was the only person I lost to in 5 rounds (I went 4-1, netting me third place out of 28 people). I was playing 2 land Belcher, and killed myself with Spoils of the Vault, at which time I did 27 damage to myself looking for a 4-of in the deck (Charbelcher) during the endstep of his second turn (I would have killed him on my turn).

[NeoMike]

Weren't you running four Blastoderms? FTK is better than Derm (especially against Madness) so just directly sub them if you like.
I just don't want to run 8 4cc critters, although the deck might be able to support it with a tweak to the mana base. Outside of that, I think CavernNinja nailed it correctly on how to incorporate the FtK's.

Dave.
I don't want to give away all of the newest developments or testing of the deck in question (because it's not my place to give away a deck that's not mine), but I will add that you guys are missing an important addition to the deck:
Llanowar Elves

It's much better than Birds of Paradise, because it beats down, and this is a beatdown deck. It is there to power out second turn Troll Ascetics and third turn Blastoderms and Ravenous Baloths. It's basically a replacement for the Tithes, and allows you to run the same or fewer lands, while providing additional beatdown, and accelerating the deck at the same time.

How do I know all of this? Because I played against Chris (who designed the deck) in round 4 last week, and he was the only person I lost to in 5 rounds (I went 4-1, netting me third place out of 28 people). I was playing 2 land Belcher, and killed myself with Spoils of the Vault, at which time I did 27 damage to myself looking for a 4-of in the deck (Charbelcher) during the endstep of his second turn (I would have killed him on my turn).
I hope you know that Birds isn't ran in this deck(to the recent decklist), neither is Llanowar Elves. Werebear is the direction to go. He is a mana Producer, and a beatstick. You already have like a crap load of turn 1 plays, so Llanowar Elves wouldn't help out at all but keep you from casting your better turn 1 creatures. Welcome to The Source.

[DavidHernandez]

What JACO is talking about is the fact that Chris modified the deck to be R/G, and added Llanowar Elves to speed it up. His version probably looks like RG Stompy with untargetable creatures combined with Survival Advantage (without the Survivals). This is part of the reason that Peter_Rotten asked about the evolution of this deck--is Chris morphing it into Zilla Stompy.

I happen to like running the White for STP, but there is something to be said for dropping the control aspect and just smashing face.

Dave.

[JACO]

I hope you know that Birds isn't ran in this deck(to the recent decklist), neither is Llanowar Elves. Werebear is the direction to go. He is a mana Producer, and a beatstick. You already have like a crap load of turn 1 plays, so Llanowar Elves wouldn't help out at all but keep you from casting your better turn 1 creatures. Welcome to The Source.
I understand the direction others are going, and I'm telling you where 'San Diego Zoo' is going. Savannah Lions are gone, so the only other first turn drop would be Nimble Mongoose - if they're even still playing it.

Werebear is nice when you have enough cards in your graveyard, but aside from that it's a slower Llanowar Elves. Instead, on the second turn when you would be dropping your Werebear, you'll now be casting Troll Ascetic. That's a big difference.

I also like the white splash, but if Swords to Plowshares and Tithe is all you're getting out of it, then that's not a big deal. Playing a more streamlined manabase also opens up the ability to play Price of Progress (in the sideboard, more than likely), which is obviously a savage beating, especially when imprinted on a Scepter.

[ndennis]

If you guys are still playing white in the deck, I would give a long hard look at Mother of Runes.

It works pretty well against Madness assuming they don't get wonder. Just make all your creatures pro green.

However, given the amount of other decks in the field that use the yard, I would think you are packing some sort of grave yard control. If so then you can utilize that to take out the wonders.

Also, why not just replace the blastoderms with the Trolls? Troll is a better creature in my opinion...

Another thing I've noticed, it looks like you guys have gotten rid of all the turn one plays. I would rethink that.

Also, if you are morphing this deck into a red/green concoction then where in the hell are the kird apes?? In all honesty they should have always been in...

-Nathan

[ndennis]

skyshroud elite would be another 1 drop worth looking at.

[DavidHernandez]

Ok, I posted results from last nights tourney. This deck was undefeated again in 4 rounds (4-0), with no ID's. It still came in second because the BW Braids deck was also undefeated and had better tie breakers by 1 Opponent Match win.

Chris went with Green Red White, dropped ONE Savannah Lion in favor of a Hound of Konda, and dropped Blastoderms in favor of Troll Asetic. Otherwise, it was the same list that I posted on page one.

Chris and I played for a couple of hours after the tournament, and I have to say that his deck is amazing! Legionnaires were the bomb as finishers, providing EIGHT damage against me once in one swing (and then sac) to finish it off.

By dropping the Blastoderms (4cc fading) and using Troll Asetic (3cc permanent) he was able to roll people over.

After seeing this deck over the last couple of months, my opinion is that it needs to be GRw, built the way page one lists it, and with the 2 changes I just mentioned (Troll's and Hound). Tithe was excellent card advantage and deck thinning. The 3 basic lands were exactly what was needed to beat B2B.

I suggested trying out Blurred Mongoose or Kird Apes over Lions and Hound, and Chris is going to test it out.


Dave.



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1101828770

[SpikeyMikey]

I talked him out of testing BlurGeese. The only advantage they have over the kitties is that they're untargetable, because nobody counters kitty anyway. At 2 mana, it screws up the deck's curve. You really want the 7 1 drop critters. Also, you don't truly mind them soaking up some removal early, it's better than losing a Werebear later.

What would be superior to Lions is Kird Ape, which you also suggested, but since we don't have any Apes, and we're lazy bastards, Kitties will probably stay for a while. While I like Trolls in the deck, I wish there was still room for derms, simply because having been on the receiving end of Blastoderm beats more times than I can count, I know how much more threatening a resolved derm is than a resolved Troll is. Finding a reliable blocker for Troll can be difficult against all that burn, but finding a reliable blocker for derm is nearly impossible.

I think FtK is an unnecessary addition to the deck, since it has no problem removing creatures as is with Bolts, Incinerate, F/I, Legionnaires, Plows, and sticks.

We are, as Dave mentioned, back to G/R/W. The main reason for the switch to straight R/G was in increase in G/W, which, with Derm and Baloth, had the bigger creatures and enough life gain to negate the burn. Now Kevin is the only one playing G/W, and G/R/W is better again.

[finley]

I've been testing the deck recently and I've found wanting a better game against Survival based decks, specificaly CavernNinja's Welder Survival and BotS ATS. Here is the list I'm currently working with:

Lands:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
1x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
3x Forest

Removal/Burn:
4x Fire/Ice
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Naturalize

Utility:
4x Isochron Scepter

Creatures:
3x Werebear
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Blastroderm
2x Troll Ascetic

After running that build in this past Saturday tournament at The Lucky Frog, I went an astounding 2 - 2 loosing to two Survival based decks, ATS piloted by BotS and Welder Survival piloted by CavernNinja. Now after seeing the fatal flaw in my build, that being that it looses to Survival of the Fittest, I've been boggling my mind on a few ideas. I've been thinking about cutting the two Troll Ascetic and putting two Kami of the Anceint Law instead, of course I haven't gotten around to playtesting this but then again I haven't had to much time since the tournament. Another suggestion is to run Humility in the sideboard for the Survival match ups. Now I understand that it turns my creatures into 1/1's also but it allows me to drop scepter inprinting some type of burn spell and to ride it to victory. Now I haven't done any testing with either but they are suggestions.

[Lego]

This has the disctinction of being my first post on this site. Anyway, here goes:

I don't know why no one has mentioned it, but maybe I'm missing something. Incinerate seems strictly inferior to Lightning Bolt, so why run it when you can instead run eight Bolts? Chain Lightning hasn't been restricted, has it? [Edit: Chain Lightning is a Sorcery, so much less versatile, and cannot be imprinted on the Scepter. Sorry for being an idiot]


As for White, I think it's what really sets the deck apart, and should be kept. I can tell you that in my testing of the deck, Goblin Legionnaire is a total beater. It's just crazy how often he wins games. I can never picture myself winning with Mogg Fanatic, or even two or three of them, but I've had multiple games with just a couple Legionnaires swinging repeatedly while I bolted opposition, and those last two points are amazing. Not to mention that several times Swords is the only thing that has saved me (Reanimate, for instance. Put a Swords on a stick and they'll scoop, even if you can't deal that much damage through all the lifegain)

As for taking out Werebear for Elves, that would be crazy. I can't count how many games I've played that one last spell, or been hit by one last land disruption spell to put my Bears and Geese over the top to swing for the win. Incidentally, I've wondered about perhaps adding a couple more fetches to increase your chances of getting them, thus putting you over the top quickly. Would this be too much damage?

Apes for Lions sounds great to me, I've already done it. This may be due to the fact that my favorite play ever is Taiga, Kird Ape. But the thing you have to remember is that they're rarely going to waste burn on your Apes, and if they do, that's fine with you, so if you can play him turn one and find a forest turn two, you're fine. With fetches and the duals played, this should be pretty simple to do.

And two last notes about U/G Madness. I love the idea of FtK. Haven't tried it myself, but it sounds solid. And finally, Worship (or Humility, for that matter) in the sideboard doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It would catch too much incidental Survival hate. Although, speaking of which, I rarely have my Scepter Naturalized... so maybe I'm wrong about this.

I think right now the build has just the right amount of Aggro to Control, and the sideboard can tweak that amount as needed. Not only can the deck win games, but the important part is that it is fun to play.

[CavernNinja]

The answer to your first question Lego, is Isochron Scepter. The stick is the one and only reason why Incinerate is played over Chain Lightning. Chain Lightning hasn't been restricted, but it remains a sorcery. If you play in a red heavy environment Chain Lightning could turn into a liability but the primary reason Incinerate is run is due to the imprinting on a stick.

[superfly]

Jolreael's Centaur may be a good addition to this deck. They are un-targetable and they have Flanking which enables them to be a 3/3 creature effectively. The only problem is the double green in the casting cost. Just a thought.

[ndennis]

Centaur is far too expensive for a 2/2.

At the 1 mana slot you have Skyshroud Elite, which is effectively a 2/3 in the format. Also you have Nimble Mongoose, which is at the very least, is untargetable, and after 3 or 4 turns (give or take) is a 3/3.

At the 2 drop you have Werebear, which is a 4/4 after several turns. At the 3 drop you could potentially be putting 3/3 elephant tokens into play.

The list goes on and on. One could even argue that you don’t want any 3 mana plays in the deck, because on turn 3 you ideally want to use the scepter and play a one mana spell!

Essentially, you simply can't spend your 3rd turn playing a 2/2 in the format and be successful.

-nathan

[tribaljb]

im not sure if this was discussed but ive been having problemswith ats and there recuring sporfrog lock. ive tried buring them via scepter burn but they have uktabi for that.

[CavernNinja]

You beat spore frog lock by developing your board and then burning the frog at the end of their turn for a couple turns in a row. That is the best way to deal with it, and can be accomplished fairly easily if you can get a burn spell on a stick.

[SpikeyMikey]

Current decklist(for those that care):

R/G/W San Diego Zoo(thx to Dave for the name, btw)

1cc(17)
4xNimble Mongoose
4xLightning Bolt
4xSwords to Plowshares
3xKird Ape
2xTithe

2cc(19)
4xIsochron Scepter
4xIncinerate
4xFire/Ice
4xGoblin Legionnaire
3xWerebear

3cc(4)
4xTroll Ascetic

Lands(20)
4xTaiga
4xPlateau
4xSavannah
3xWooded Foothills
2xWindswept Heath
1xForest
1xMountain
1xPlains

Obviously, this is for a balanced and diverse meta. If you're playing somewhere with an overabundance of Survival(read New England), I would suggest replacing the Kird Apes with Lyrists in the main and running 3 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Humility, and 1 E. Tutor board.

[tribaljb]

You beat spore frog lock by developing your board and then burning the frog at the end of their turn for a couple turns in a row. That is the best way to deal with it, and can be accomplished fairly easily if you can get a burn spell on a stick.
of cousre thats thet plan but scepter dosent stayo n the board long since they have uktabi orangatang or viridian zealot and can easily destroy it b4 it gets out of hand. of course u can draw more burn spells but by then ats is in far superior board postion.

Oh dear Lord, I hope that's not you, hellfire. Anyway, we have rules on this forum. Here is a link to our rules (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) about posting. (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2619) To avoid another warning, you will need to do the following:
Use your shift key
Proofread your posts - this one has abundant typos

Peter_Rotten

[Asrael]

I've tested the deck and recognized that the Isochron Scepter isnt that "good". Everyone in my local meta is running enchantment/artifact hate (Disenchant, Naturalize, Vindicate ...) so i loose the Scepters every time. I think they should be replaced with Regrowth and moved to the sideboard.

Some calcs:
Using a Bolt/StP twice with Scepter cost u 6 mana.
Using Bolt/StP twice with Regrowth cost 4 mana.

Sure, if u can manage to use ure Scepter more than twice u are over the top. But how often do this happen?
And if u draw a Scepter late game without haveing something to imprint... thats bad too. Regrowth whas never been a dead card for me.

What are ur experiences with the Scepters?

[Bongo]

Back from the ashes.

To answer the question, Scepter has been pretty good for me, so I dont think its a good idea to change that slot. I still have a few questions, though:

1. Wouldnt Blastoderm be better? The deck is mana hungry, and Troll really keeps your mana occupied. Sure, Blastoderm comes down on turn 4 instead of turn 3, but its not like youve got nothing to do.

2. Would Cursed Scroll be a good idea? Of course, the inclusion of Scroll would take the deck in a slightly different direction.

[Prometheus]

Cursed Scroll allows you to turn you draws in to Shock's for the cost of three. It would be a good lategame card to burn the hell out of your opponent while still being a threat... I just think that you'd either use Scroll or Scepter, not both. If you were to use Scrolls, the deck might turn into R/G beats. I think that Scepter would be cut for them, and right now, the stick is a better trump card than Sroll. If scrolls were added, there would be three most probable ways that the deck would go:

1. Beatdown as stated previously. The deck may end up cutting white and Scepters, which both are beneficial to the it. Larger Creatures would find their way in over Fire/Ice and StP.
2. Burn would be another option. It would untilize both Scepter and Scroll with cheap creatures and probably impliment Lavamancers. Right now, the scepters are the burn that keeps on burning. If those were to be kept around and the Scrolls added, there would be less of a beatdown edge.
3. Sideboarded would be the Scroll. I've seen some rather pretty sideboard choices, and frankly I can't see them leaving for more burn. Boarding them is probably the one thing of these three that wouldn't happen, because there is really no need for it.

My suggestions for the deck would be Blurred Mongoose or River Boa. They are both strong cards with great abilities. The advantage of River Boa is that he regenerates, making himself a pest against control and other burn decks. Mongoose is also an evil anti control card, he slips by burn spells, and can't be countered making him another thoughtful consideration for this deck.

[Bongo]

Sorry to bump up an older thread, but this deck is really worth it.

My version is slightly different than the ones listed before, including Humble Budoka (2/2 untargetable for 1G). The Goblin Legionnaires were swapped out for these. Additionally, I wanted another good Imprint target besides FireIce. Although the loss of 1 damage point hurts, Magma Jet gives this deck much needed library manipulation.

For reference, my current decklist:


Bongo Zoo

Beaters
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Kird Ape
4x Werebear
4x Humble Budoka
4x Blastoderm

Removal
4x Swords
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Magma Jet
4x Fire/Ice

Magic Stick
4x Isochron Scepter

Mana
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
4x Savannah
3x Forest
1x Mountain


1) Is Magma Jet over Incinerate the right choice?

2) Goblin Legionnaires were only effective if I had R open. This led to awkward situations, as the deck is really mana hungry. Humble Budoka is easy to cast and ups the untargetable creature count to 12. Anyone else trying out this guy?

3) What's the proper sideboard for this deck? Are there any must-haves?


-Bongo

[DavidHernandez]

I played this version last week and took 3rd out of 32:

R/G/w San Diego Zoo

1cc(17)
4xNimble Mongoose
4xLightning Bolt
4xSwords to Plowshares
3xKird Ape
2xTithe

2cc(19)
4xIsochron Scepter
4xIncinerate
4xFire/Ice
3xGoblin Legionnaire
3xWerebear
1x Blastoderm

3cc(4)
4xTroll Ascetic

Lands(20)
4xTaiga
4xPlateau
4xSavannah
3xWooded Foothills
2xWindswept Heath
1xForest
1xMountain
1xPlains

This deck is just awesome. I put the Derm in the main to see if it would make a difference. I don't like the Derms as much as the Troll's, and I won't play the derm again. The original build used 4x derm, but Troll is just better. It doesn't use up your mana any differently than a derm does, but gives you a faster drop and the ability to regen.

The deck really needs to have 4 Legionnaires. It was a mistake on my part to pull one for a derm. The Legionnaires are amazingly flexible and often provide the finishing damage. Swining with 2 of them and then sac'ing them yields an impressive 8 damage, or critical removal, or needed protection. The more I use them the more impressed I am.

Dave.



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1107747765

[Carney2k4]

Well, just to note Blastoderm is a 4cc Creature.

It would seem to me since you are running Troll's that you might want to concider BoP's to fuel the early Troll, like Wearbears do for Blastoderms.

[DavidHernandez]

Well, just to note Blastoderm is a 4cc Creature.
?? oh, I see...I listed it under 2cc. That's because I copied and pasted from an earlier list.


It would seem to me since you are running Troll's that you might want to concider BoP's to fuel the early Troll, like Wearbears do for Blastoderms.
Birds of Paradise die immediately. I don't like Llanowar Elves either. Besides, there simply isn't room. With this deck, you want a turn-one threat in the way of a Kird Ape or Nimble Mongoose. Your burn spells clear the opponents board while filling your graveyard towards Threshold. Werebears supply additional mana while offering a large threat. Then you get burn or Fire/Ice on a Scepter while holding STP as backup/control. In the meantime, Goblin Legionnaires can smash face while offering final damage or preventing the loss of your life to stupid red burn.

In San Diego, the deck that gave me the biggest problem was Reanimator. I didn't have any trouble vs. Control. Kevin's TPW ("Throbbing Pink Weenie") could also be a problem (the deck is R/W, and half of the decklist is hate).

Try this at a tournament:

R/G/w San Diego Zoo

1cc(17)
4xNimble Mongoose
4xLightning Bolt
4xSwords to Plowshares
3xKird Ape
2xTithe

2cc(19)
4xIsochron Scepter
4xIncinerate
4xFire/Ice
4xGoblin Legionnaire
3xWerebear

3cc(4)
4xTroll Ascetic

Lands(20)
4xTaiga
4xPlateau
4xSavannah
3xWooded Foothills
2xWindswept Heath
1xForest
1xMountain
1xPlains

I think you'll be pleased with your finish.

Dave.



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1107786805

[Bongo]

Dave, didn't you have any troubles by keeping mana open for Goblin Legionnaires and Trolls?

My main reason to swap them for Humble Budokas and Blastoderms was the lower "mana investment". Somehow, it just felt wrong keeping mana open all the time because it meant that I had fewer mana to operate with. In other words, less mana for Burn and Scepter.

Also, Blastoderm really curves in nicely with Werebear and hits harder than Troll, which is important against bigger stuff like Ravenous Baloth and Arrogant Wurm. Budoka is also really easy to cast, sometimes a Wasteland can prevent you from getting WR for Legionnaires.

[Raider Bob]

Has anyone used Caller of the Claw with this deck? I have seen John Lacass use it in the cuse to make top 2 in the last 4 tournaments he has been in.

Also I have seen soul foundry used with Nimble Mongoose to destroy me. Sorry for the flashback to the chick in the Rochester world championship that beat me round 1.

[bardego]

Kevin's TPW ("Throbbing Pink Weenie") could also be a problem (the deck is R/W, and half of the decklist is hate).
TPW is currently 3-0 vs. zoo (not kevin's btw - Dean's)

The maindeck evasion and non-targetting clean-up have proven to be a big advantage for TPW. Sceptor has proven to be a non-impact and typically is the first thing that zoo sideboards out in games 2-3. Zoo is also very susceptible to blood moon :p

[DavidHernandez]

Oops. I meant "Dean", but I was thinking "Kevin Trembly".


Dave, didn't you have any troubles by keeping mana open for Goblin Legionnaires and Trolls?
No. Not at all. The deck was a machine and just ground people up. The Legionnaires are going to be a 4-of for me whenever I play this deck. Truly versatile and a good beater as well.

dave.

[Bongo]

Also switched back to Goblin Legionnaires. If your meta is infested with control decks, I would use Humble Budoka, though.

I have found Magma Jet to be pretty useful, especially on Scepter. Anyone else liking this card? Is there a compelling reason to run Incinerate over this?

[DavidHernandez]

Is there a compelling reason to run Incinerate over this?
For me, I'd rather dish out the extra point of damage rather than have the scry ability. The burn is the control aspect of the deck, and 3 damage can handle almost everything you will run into, including Ophidian's (which we see here).

Dave.

[Bongo]

Aside from the Ophidian you mentioned, I didn't find any widely played creatures with toughness of 3. Are there any?

Actually, most important creatures have a toughness of 1 or 2. Sometimes, there is bigger stuff like Ravenous Baloth or Exalted Angel, but in such a case Incinerate also can't handle these. The only advantage of Incinerate is the additional point of damage when burning your opponent.
But as Dave Hernandez mentioned, the burn is the control aspect of the deck, and as such, I prefer the card which can handle most creatures AND give me library manipulation (and thus further control of the game) at the same time.

Overall, I see Magma Jet as the stronger card.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't think there should be a huge issue keeping a few mana open for Troll regen or Legionnaire sacing. You honestly only want 2-3 creatures on the board at any given, time, depending on the creatures and life totals. Anything above that, you keep in hand, even if your opponent has no mass removal. Why? One, because cards in hand represent burn, in a deck with so many direct damage spells. Two, because your opponent can't play around what they don't know you have. If you're sitting on a pair of Legionnaires in hand with a Goose and a Troll on the table, you've already got a solid threat developed, with an additional 4 points of pseudo burn in hand, as well as the ability to drop out additional threats to break through a creature stall if need be. The less information your opponent has about you, the better.

[Bongo]

There is no "huge" issue.

I was asking this question about keeping mana open because there were some situations were I had Troll and Legionnaire out and had to keep 1GR open. That alone wasn't a big deal, but because of that I didn't have enought mana to activate Scepter or use a burn spell (this would require 3GR, which is quite a lot).

This is why I tried out Humble Budoka. Against control Budoka was the better choice, but overall Legionnaire is stronger, so I switched back. I use Blastoderm, though. That dude is just stronger against Ravenous Baloth, Arrogant Wurm and Exalted Angel, where the Troll can't do anything.
By switching Trolls for Blastoderms, the keep-mana-open issue is also solved. Keeping 2R or 2W open for Legionnaire and Scepter is a lot easier than the aforementioned 3GR.


What are your opinions on Magma Jet?

[vegeta13613]

I'm new to this deck, and fairly new to legacy, but I have a few questions. I'm planning on running this deck or a deck very similar to it, and I was wondering why you wouldn't put in a dual that can give you blue mana. I've had many situations in testing in which I wished for blue mana to tap down something.

Also, this deck does well versus many decks, but how can it deal with fast combo, namely Belcher, which often wins by turn 3 (it's the only deck in the area that I'm afraid of, other than the usual Survival decks).

[Bongo]

Most of the time, FireIce is imprinted on Scepter, so theoretically you don't need blue mana. However, this problem also occurred to me and I'm including 1 Tropical Island right now. With 8 Fetches (in my version) it should be found when needed.

I haven't tested against Belcher, so I can only assume that your best bet is Oxidize and Null Rod coming from the sideboard.

Edit: I strongly feel like this deck has evolved past its newbie/developmental status and should be relocated to the open forum.

[vegeta13613]

I've been having a bit of a problem reaching threshold early in my numerous playtest games, so I've stolen Bongo's idea, and upped my fetchland count (from 5 to 7). The mana base is a bit smoother now, and I seem to be frequently hitting threshold a turn earlier than before. I also added a Trop. Island, which was definitely a good idea. As for the Magma Jet vs. Incinerate debate, I'd have to say it seems fairly clear that the winner is Jet. In my testing, I would almost always rather scry two than do one more point of damage, especially with all the other burn in the deck (the cannot regenerate ability is negligible, as your most likely regenerating target would be Troll Ascetic). I think this deck needs some addition to its later game, which Magma Jet does fairly well (Cursed Scroll would probaly be another good card). I see the real debate being Troll vs. 'Derm. With 20 lands, it's often not possible to drop Blastoderm 4th, which is a big disadvantage. Still, there's no clear winner for me in this fight, even after hours upon hours of playtesting. Any more ideas anyone?

[SpikeyMikey]

There is no "huge" issue.

I was asking this question about keeping mana open because there were some situations were I had Troll and Legionnaire out and had to keep 1GR open. That alone wasn't a big deal, but because of that I didn't have enought mana to activate Scepter or use a burn spell (this would require 3GR, which is quite a lot).

This is why I tried out Humble Budoka. Against control Budoka was the better choice, but overall Legionnaire is stronger, so I switched back. I use Blastoderm, though. That dude is just stronger against Ravenous Baloth, Arrogant Wurm and Exalted Angel, where the Troll can't do anything.
By switching Trolls for Blastoderms, the keep-mana-open issue is also solved. Keeping 2R or 2W open for Legionnaire and Scepter is a lot easier than the aforementioned 3GR.


What are your opinions on Magma Jet?
I think the original reason for the switch from Derm to Troll was because there were a lot of G/W decks in the field, and Troll was stronger in those matchups because it negated Derm, and still maintained the Plow-proof status. I think a part of it was also that Derm was a little out of the curve sometimes. Honestly, I see it as kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other, either or is an effective beatstick and difficult to deal with.

Edit:If you're adding the trop, you can also run Stifle out of the board to deal with Belcher. I don't think either Oxidize or Null Rod is necessary, I think Naturalize does the trick quite nicely and leaves open space in the board for other things like Gibbons and Choke

[Peter_Rotten]

Moved to Open for the following reasons:

A generally accepted list exists
The deck is being played in more and more metas
Consistently T4s in a larger tournament scene
I love bullets

[vegeta13613]

I went through the list of all the creatures with a power of three, just to make sure leaving Incinerate for Maga Jet is a wise decision. If you have Apprentice, I'd check it out, you might be surprised how few really good creatures have a power of three. Here are the most important ones I found:
Aquamoeba
Gilded Drake (you will probaly never see with the creatures this
deck runs)
Mystic Enforcer (will be a 6/6 most of the time when it hits play)
Morphling (you'll probaly never kill it with Incinerate anyways)
Juggernaut (I am SBing Naturalizes and Artifact mutation, so this
isn't a big worry)

Those are the few I see fairly consistently around here, and I have a very diverse meta. Others you might see would include Ophidian, Kamahl, Bane of the Living, Skizzik, and other mediocre tournament cards.

As for the cannot be regenerated effect, what do we have with a power of 3 or less that regenerates and is played fairly often in Legacy? River Boa? Nightscape Familiar? I can't think of much...

So, we have 3 damage vs. 2 damage and scry 2. With no draw in the deck (Ice isn't really any type of reliable draw), I think we really need the scrying ability.

I'd love to hear more discussion on this forum, the deck's been great in testing, only having a bad matchup versus fast combo.

Any more thoughts on Ascetic vs. Blastoderm?
How are the SBs looking?

[DavidHernandez]

Interesting. I'll try out Magma Jet.

On Ascetic vs. Blastoderm, I can say that I don't miss the Derms. When Troll hits the table it always seems to draw an "uh-oh" out of the opponent.

Dave.

[Bongo]

vegeta13613, thanks for backing up my arguments for Magma Jet, I also checked out the 3 toughness creatures and didn't find anything widely played. The only widely played creature against which Incinerate is better than Magma Jet is Wild Mongrel, but you still have Swords and Lightning Bolt to throw at it, so it shouldn't be a big problem.
The scrying ability has definitely helped a lot and together with Fire/Ice and Scepter, gives this deck some sort of late game.

Blastoderm/Troll: I think this is a metagame issue. If you see a lot of high toughness creatures like Exalted and Baloth, Derm wins. If there is more emphasis on control in your meta, one should run Troll.
Although I like the Derm better, I have reduced the number to three and replaced the fourth Derm with another land. This was because sometimes I didn't have the mana to cast Derm or I didn't want to see it on my starting hand. The deck is also really mana-hungry, so another land has helped a lot. This also increased the chance of dropping Derm 3rd turn with the help of Werebear and three lands. By running Magma Jet, it is also easier to find a Derm when you need it.

One other thing. I recommend the use of 8 Fetchlands. They serve a double purpose, in that they get you the right mana to cast your threats and fill up your graveyard for the crucial Threshold. Fetchlands and Magma Jet also somewhat simulate the popular Brainstorm/Fetchland engine in that it gives you better card selection.
I don't use Tithe because it costs me too much tempo. Tithe is the most powerful in the early game, but in the early game you want to cast threats and not waste precious mana and time to get card advantage.

[Happy Gilmore]

Has any thought yet been given to using Call of the Herd instead of blastoderm/ascetic? sure, it doesnt have the untargetability factor, but it is much easier to cast and is really hard to deal with. It has card advantage writen all over it. :D

[B is for Big Job]

Has any thought yet been given to using Call of the Herd instead of blastoderm/ascetic? sure, it doesnt have the untargetability factor, but it is much easier to cast and is really hard to deal with. It has card advantage writen all over it. :D
Im pretty sure there has been a discussion of Herd in the deck and im guessing that people would rather have troll or blastoderm because of their non-targeting ability, despite of the card advantage. But it could be possible to play in an extremely heavy control meta and used as c-spell bating fodder.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the biggest advantage that Troll Ascetic and Derm have is that they're much better for creature combat. Against heavy control, Call is better than Troll, but Blastoderm is better still, because it's so difficult to deal with and represents 75% of an opponents life total unblocked.

[Bongo]

Just a quick post: What are you guys putting in your sideboards?

[vegeta13613]

Well, my meta is pretty tough, as most people here are playing to test for Syracuse (there are quite a few big 1.5s there), and there are quite a few high rated players. I think this deck's SB needs something to stop combo. As I have said before, after testing numerous times against almost a dozen of 1.5 decks, this deck really only needs to fear combo that can win on turn 4 or so - In my area that would be Solidarity and 'Belcher. Stifle seems the way to go (I added a Trop Island and am running 7 Fetch and 3 Tithes). I also like Bind, but it's obviously not as useful. Ray of Revelation seems a mediocre card versus any Survival deck, but it's the best card I could think of (seems to work a bit better than crypt).
Here's what I have so far:
4x Hidden Gibbons
4x Stifle
3x Ray of Revelation
2x Naturalize
2x Artifact Mutation

Fine tuning is needed, I should probaly stick with just Rays and Mutations or just Naturalizes/ Disenchants...

[cosik]

Been working on a sideboard for this deck and some of the cards I have been looking at have been

Caller of the Claw
Artifact Mutation
Naturalize
Red Elemental Blast
Bind(much easier to cast than stifle and card drawing under a stick)

Sacred Ground?


I've been tempted to run a few Orim's Thunder but they don't fit under the scepter.

Also been tempted to try and cut back on the duals in all the deck list a bit and run more basics and lean heavier on the fetches so I could play price of progress.

That is what I have had so far for sideboard choices.

To explain my choices.

3 Caller for any sort of mass removal matchups.

Naturalize is almost always a 4 of for SotF/Belcher/Welder

and 4 ReB and 2 Bind are for Solidarity mainly.

2 Artifact Mutation for Belcher/Welder

Also I still cannot decide between Trolls and Derms

[glare]


Edit: Other things I thought of running in the board

Aura Shards - helps with survival/stax
Serenity - this seems to be the best option against enchantress
Absolute Law - stops clasm and starstorm

I still haven't really found a good weapon against U/G madness to add to my sideboard.

[vegeta13613]

Interesting... I'd like to hear more on the Bind vs. Stifle issue. My main thoughts on the issue are:
Bind cannot stop storm (Solidarity)
Stifle comes out a turn earlier, and 'Belcher has been known to win turn one and turn two (roughly turn 1 about 1/10 and turn 2 around 2/5 of the time). This mean 'Belcher has a fair chance of going off before you get 2 mana (depending who goes first).
There's also the problem that this deck (well my deck anyways) runs only 1 Trop Island for blue, so with the 7-8 fetch and 3 Tithes, you might not be able to use Stifle turn 1-2.

Overall, I see Stifle being a better choice. I've primarily been a T2 player up to now, so I might be missing something, so I'd love more input.

Here's my decklist so far (nothing too different from what you've seen before if you've been reading all the earlier posts)

// 1cc
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Kird Ape
3 Tithe
// 2cc
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Magma Jet
4 Fire // Ice
4 Goblin Legionnaire
3 Werebear
// 4cc
4 Blastoderm
// Lands
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB: 4 Hidden Gibbons
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 2 Artifact Mutation
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation

Yes, 61 cards...
I really want to cut something for another fetch, but I can't decide on what.

[ndennis]

You guys are missing 2 very big 3 toughness creatures.

Kird Ape
Skyshroud Elite

Furthermore, you guys should probably have an explaination for not playing both of those guys in a deck with red and green...


-Nathan

[vegeta13613]

ndennis- Read my previous post again, I have 3 Kird Apes in my deck. It was discussed earlier in the thread, and I think everyone is running ape now. The argument could be made (and I have considered it) that a 4th Kird would be better than the 4th Mongoose, but in my testing the Mongoose is slightly better. As for Elite... What would you suggest taking out? I personally think it's not quite good enough to fit in the deck. It went in Zompy (as did Kird Ape), but with Zoo we have 3 colors, not 2 (plus blue spash in some cases) and better options.

[scrumdogg]

Why not Orim's Chant in the sideboard? It is your best option against Solidarity (since it can't be bounced), OK against Belcher, and fine against any aggro deck, making a either a Time Walk effect or a nasty maneuver in a damage race. It also fits on the stick... Stifle is a house against many things, including your mirror match Troll regen effects :cool: and should stay over Bind because it also cannot be bounced.

Serenity versus Enchantress has an extremely high likelihood of being Sealed or Auared off the face of the planet. Talk to Spatula about Tranquil Grove, get his reaction to it, and then check it out for yourself. It does cost five to cast and activate, but it stays in play, does nothing to your board or deck, and monkeystomps Enchantress. I may start running 3 in my SB any time I expect VA at a tourney....

[Hoojo]

I didn't think Stifle could target the Troll in the mirror...

[Afro]

Stifle targets the regneration effect, not Troll itself.

[Ewokslayer]

Stifle is a house against many things, including your mirror match Troll regen effects and should stay over Bind because it also cannot be bounced.

Bind can be bounced? ???
Bind also stops a regenerating troll as it is an activated ability.
It just can't stop annoying triggered abilities like storm, but you have already stated that you would prefer Orim's Chant as anti storm tech.

[SpikeyMikey]

Maybe I'm off base here, as I don't play Zoo all that often, but has anyone tried countering ATS by upping the burn? The one thing any Survival deck does better than everything else is stop creatures, so if you were to pull some critters for say Flamebreaks and Price of Progress, and just started directing the majority of your burn towards their heads, you might find it working out a little better. You have no way of stopping Survival from hitting the board, and they can slow you down early with a glut of critters, allowing them time to get set up with recursion and hasted mana production. Once you've allowed them to get shitloads of mana, you have to devote resources every turn to trying to kill whatever they Genesised.

I think it'd be better to aim lots of burn at their dome right away, since I've seen how problematic that can be for ATS. Flamebreak and PoP both hit you, but it's kind of like casting a draw-7 in TPS, you don't ever really intend for your opponent to be able to capitalize on the symmetrical effect. If you price and both of you take 8, you've gained more out of it than the ATS player has.

[Braves54321]

Flamebreak and PoP both hit you, but it's kind of like casting a draw-7 in TPS, you don't ever really intend for your opponent to be able to capitalize on the symmetrical effect.

This would work except:
-ATS plays life gain(in the form of baloth or spike feeder) mb and thus the effect of Pop and Flamebreak isn't symmetrical when they are recurring life gain.
-Flamebreak kills all your critters including troll. You kill with creatures, this means flamebreak sucks.
-TPS wins that turn, I don't see SD Zoo winning on the turn you cast all these burn spells unless you have 8+ land on the table, and by then either Ats has a tradewind lock or you've already won anyways.


I can see maybe adding more burn, but please don't play Price of Progress or Flamebreak.

[vegeta13613]

I have to agree on the Flamebreaks, they're not for this deck, even if RRR was no problem. However, Price isn't horrible. This deck is quick enough where it can outrace a lot of decks, then Price for the win. However, I really don't think it's worth a SB slot, there are so many other great options. I like the Chant idea, however, as it on a stick is crazy, and if you can't stick it, it can stop combo... I might have to change my SB a bit to accomodate it (though I think Solidarity could play around it).
Bind vs. Stifle... ya... more difficult than 'Derm vs. Ascetic for me.

[DavidHernandez]

I may be missing something here...

How can you add Price of Progress to this deck when all but 3 of it's lands are non-basic...? I think PoP would be good against the Zoo. Vegeta mentioned outracing other decks, so I suppose you could keep yourself to 2 lands...maybe 3, but I think it would be a crippling choice. You want mana to use Scepter, and you want to cast Troll or Derm, and then there's all the hate you want to cast. You really want 3 mana on the table, and there's a good chance you're looking at 6-damage from PoP.

I think it's more likely to hurt you than to finish the opponent off. My bet is that you'd be stuck with PoP in hand and a reluctance to cast it, making it (effectively) a wasted slot.

Dave.

[SpikeyMikey]

Baloth or Feeder recursion takes 7 mana, so without an active Rofellos, ATS isn't going to be doing it until around turn 8 or 9 at least. If you can plow Rofellos, or even keep him out of play via burn, they're not gaining any life. SDZ doesn't win with creatures, it beats with creatures and finishes with burn. I only suggested Flamebreak because it rapes Birds, Rangers, and a myriad of the utility critters, which can slow them down long enough for you to burn them out.

[scrumdogg]

I'd rather play directed burn than either board sweepers or symmetrical burn in a deck like this - something more like Firestorm. I realize that Firestorm is probably not the answer, but it can hit multiple opposing critters (for a bunch of customizable damage) and your opponent while not hitting you or your critters & building your threshold. I would seriously look for effects such as that before wiping my own side or forcing my manabase to hit me in the face with a shovel.... Is it possible to add critters that could have an effect? Anything from Goblin Sharpshooter to Fireslinger to Icatian Javelineers to ????? The key to stopping ATS is to hit it's manabase hard (namely all them little weasel critters). Thoughts? Ideas? Propositions?

[vegeta13613]

Still on the subject of Price- If you play it in the SB, you will be SBing it in against any deck that you can outrace and uses mainly non-basic (I would estimate this as being about 1/2 of the decks out there, maybe 1/3). On turn 4, you can cast it to deal 8 damage to your opponent (most likely). Even though it would likely deal 8 to you also (maybe not, don't forget you're likely running 3 basics to fetch), you should have them down to 12 life or less on turn 4 (after you attack/ use your other 2 mana on turn 4). This means it's often a turn 4 win if drawn by or before turn 4. My only other thoughts are:
1- There are better SB options
2- You should likely be outracing these slower decks already, so PoP might just be a "win more" card against such decks.
So.... I don't think it was a really bad decision, I just think slots are needed in the SB for harder matchups, such as Survival/ combo decks.

[SpikeyMikey]

You can easily control how much damage you're taking. For instance, Chris(the deck's creator) will often fetch for basics early in games where he thinks Blood Moon or B2B might come down, and it doesn't usually hurt the flexibility of the mana base at all. Even if you're taking 2-4 to Price, that's acceptable.

Most decks that you're going to outrace(which is just about any damn thing when you win) are only going to win *if* they can slow you down. As an example, my Landstill goes about 50/50 with SDZ when I go first, maybe even like 55/45 in my favor. When Landstill goes second, that drops to more like 10/90 in SDZ's favor. Why? The extra turn it takes for me to activate Deed and clear the board. The extra 3-5 points of damage that get across in those first few turns when my development is so stunted.

That's how ATS beats the deck, when it does. It slows it down with an early glut of dorks, most importantly Wall of Roots, denying you the key early creature beats. Those creature beats need to account for the first 8-12 points of damage across, the rest you can mop up with burn. So if we move away from the creatures, boarding out say Trolls and Werebears, and adding more burn, now we only need to get across 5-6 in creature form, because we're now 1/3rd burn instead of 1/4th.

[vegeta13613]

Hrm... ya, 8 damage for 2 mana on turn 4 is usually game with this deck vs. most any slower deck. MAYBE it's worth a slot (are you arguing that?). I'd still have to say there are better cards for the SB, but it's a thought.

Has anyone considered Parallax Wave? Not only does it pretty much give you the game versus lots of creature decks, it wrecks tokens (removed token creatures don't come back). That'll be useful vs. all of those Wurm tokens.

[Bongo]

Very interesting, it doesn't seem that there is a widely accepted sideboard for SD Zoo.

There were various suggestions, and I have come to the following conclusions:

-Parallax Wave is a bit expensive for it to make an impact in the early game. If you're running both Blastoderm and Wave, you really have to have a lot of mana or risk getting screwed.

-Stifle is good, no doubt, but to use it reliably, you have to retool your already difficult manabase to accomodate more blue sources. If your only Tropical Island gets Wastelanded, Stifle is dead.

-Price is just plain bad in this deck and hurts you more than your opponent sometimes.

-Orims Chant is a winner! Scepter/Chant in game 2&3 can really catch your opponent off guard. Not to mention that it's almost game over for most aggro strategies.


My current sideboard:

4x Orims Chant
4x Naturalize
3x Chaos Charm (tech against Survival)
2x Honorable Passage
2x REB

Every card can fit on a Scepter, which is pretty important.
Chaos Charm is tech and stunts the mana development of Survival decks by killing Birds, Llanowar Elves, Rofellos, Wall of Roots and Quirion Ranger (can also clean up Sharpshooters, Welders, Witness).

Anyone else happy with Chant in the board?

[vegeta13613]

Is Chaos Charm the best we have? I really can't think of much better, but is it really worth a SB spot for the little impact it will have against so few decks? I'd rather see, as an exmple, Artifact Mutation, which can basically win you the game against a few decks, and at least is worth SBing in vs. over half the decks out there. Overall, it doesn't seem worth it, but I think you're on the right direction.

I agree on the Stifle issue. It only has a large affect on a few decks ('Becher and Solidarity to name a few), so it should either be maindeck or not at all. So, not at all in this deck.

Chant is mean, very mean. If I can get my hands on 4, they're in and Stifle is out.

Price--- I still have to say, 8 damage to your opponent and 2-4 to you on turn 4 (remember yo can easily control the damage you take) to your opponent is usually game. I think this might be a better card vs. Survival than Fever Charm (though I don't think either really fit well).

I'd like to hear more on Wave. It is a game winner vs. most any creature deck you go up against. I run 3 Tithes (I love the card), and 4 mana on turn 4 is almost never a problem. Like Chant, if I can get my hand on them (3 should be good), they're in. If you don't have many creature-based decks in your area, it might not be worth it.

Edit-
Maybe Night Soil vs. Survival? Most likely it will be something like on your turn 3 or 4, remove their Squee and Genesis, leave the Anger, you get a 1/1. If they don't destroy the soil, they're stuck with only an Anger in grave. If they do destroy it, your Stick is probaly a little safer.
Simoon will ALL hit their x/1 creatures, even birds, and not your Mongoose.

[Bongo]

For reference, my current decklist with sideboard:

Bongo Zoo

SB:
4x Orims Chant
4x Naturalize
2x Samite Ministration
2x REB
3x open metagame slots

Beaters (19)
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Kird Ape
4x Werebear
4x Goblin Legionnaire
3x Blastoderm

Removal (16)
4x Swords
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Magma Jet
4x Fire/Ice

Magic Stick
4x Isochron Scepter

Mana (21)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
3x Savannah
1x Plateau
1x Tropical Island
3x Forest
1x Mountain


Actually, I don't have that many problems against Survival decks, so I changed the Chaos Charm slots to open metagame slots. The only difficult matchup is RGSA running Trolls. Here, I recommend siding in Chant, as it will buy you hopefully enough time (coupled with burn on their mana creatures) to do lethal damage. I wouldn't use Night Soil, since it only slows the Survival player down instead of crippling him. Night Soil only works well when the opponents engine is working, which is the thing you want to prevent. Night Soil also can't be imprinted.

The thing with Price is, a good opponent can get around it by fetching basics. I think this card is too narrow to include since it only affects Welder Survival and ATS, and even there, its effect is only marginal.

Parallax Wave isn't needed that much, there are 16 removal spells at your disposal, which should be enough. The Legionnaires also double as removal.

The open metagame slots should be adapted to your local metagame. In fact, the whole sideboard is highly meta dependent. Here is a list of possible options:

Solidarity: More REBs, maybe Scald. Scald can be bounced, but will certainly do damage and is a must-bounce permanent for the Solidarity player. Scald slows him down while at the same time accelerates your clock by providing damage.

Belcher: Null Rod. Shuts off Belcher, Lotus Petal, LED, Chrome Mox and Chromatic Sphere. Just don't forget to remove the Welder.

Stax variants: Artifact Mutation. If you fear Chalice for 2, it might be feasible to run Rack or Ruin.

Angel Stompy: Chant should help here, but if it's not enough a few Anarchies might help.

[vegeta13613]

I don't know about what you've seen with Survival, but from my testing hitting any 2 creatures in their grave, making it so they can never have more creatures in their grave than that one you left them (usually Anger or something worse) and putting at least one 1/1 into play is HUGE. If you fear Survival, this is probaly the best card for you.

As for PoP, I don't totally agree with you (they won't be able to play around it before they lose a game to it, likely), but yes, it's not worth a slot.

Your removal spells are fine, but they're 1-for-1 (one card to destroy one creature). I think if you're in a creatue-heavy meta as I am, Wave is necessary. It removes usually 3-4 creatures long enough to make a path for your creatures and allows you to focus your burn on the other player. It's nice for bigger creatures too, ones that only your StP can take care of.

As for your deck, it looks great. I like Tithe, but that's a personal call.

Is there anything more to discuss? Sure, there's Blastoderm vs. Troll, but I think we all agree that both will work well. We have a standard decklist, and at least a good idea of what the SB should look like.

[Bongo]

I agree.

Just two useful comments though:

1) Samite Ministration works better than Honorable Passage. Lifegain is more important in the damage race versus Goblins and Sligh, which is why stuff like Exalted is good against those decks. Can also catch a Tog player offguard when lethal damage turns into a 40 point life swing :p

2) Chant is a catch-all solution and takes care of most problems. I'm even thinking of putting a couple of these in the main.

-Bongo

[vegeta13613]

Just as a note to everyone, I finally took my SDZ deck to a tournament this weekend and placed first, not losing a round. There were approx 18 people there.

The clear star of the deck was, surprisingly, Artifact Mutation. It won me many games, nearly by itsself. It made an otherwise likely unwinnable top two against a landstill deck a win for me. It took out the Wasteland-Crucible lock that otherwise is horrible for this deck. It also took out those nasty Nevy's Disks, while giving me 4 1/1s. The other card which did surprisingly well was Hidden Gibbons. It was key in helping me win many games, including vs. Burn and vs. Landstill.

With 20 lands, I don't think Tithe is necessary. I found myself wishing it was a creature or burn every single time I drew it.

One last note- I was wishing I had Price of Progress in my SB MANY times. It would have made so many games much easier. I paid close attention, and I found that, almost always, the better players (and people with better overall decks) are using MANY non-basics (mainly duals), almost every land being a non-basic in many cases.

[Slay]

If the main problems with this deck comes against slow aggro-control decks such as ATS, why aren't we considering Orim's Chant maindeck? It is a massive tempo boost, because all they can do is play a land. All the Survivaling in the world doesn't equate to creatures on the field, and that might delay the inevitable just enough to win the game. In addition, it's pretty savage on a stick, as is wildly obvious.
-Slay

[scrumdogg]

I would like to reinforce the case for Artifact Mutation in the sideboard. The decks natural weaknesses are to combo (that can outrace SD Zoos damage plan) and boardsweeping control (ala Landstill). Vegeta & I played in the finals of Garion's tournament this weekend. I was running U/W Landstill, the listed version +1 Wrath of God, and had a good tournament. In Game 1 I destroyed him...as it should be.... However, he won the match 2-1 because he was able to turn my control elements into problems both Games 2 and 3. Game 2 was bad for me anyway...I think I saw 2 blue cards the entire game (which I stalled for quite a while...). In Game 3 he Artifact Mutated my Disk the turn I cast it (that being the only time he could get that large a swing out of it, as I could obviously sac it in response had it been untapped). Those 1/1s went a long way toward finishing me off.
Artifact Mutation, for all intensive purposes, beat me to death....and removed from consideration nearly half of my board clearing removal. REB on an earlier Standstill denied me card advantage, a constant stream of small (& not so small) threats like Hidden Gibbons, Blastoderm, etc depleted my resources. If Landstill HAS to wait to cast Disk with counter backup, SDZ gains a huge tactical advantage. It was a good match, well played, and I enjoyed the insight into how exploit some of Landstill's wekanesses. Congrats on the win, Erik.


PS Artifact Mutation has applicability against other combo as well, including Belcher, Salvagers, Doomsday if not Solidarity (which is why Orim's Chant or Abeyance exist....). Art. Mute. also can be helpful against odd abusive things which pop up like Masticore, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Mindslaver, etc etc....

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the reason you're not seeing MD scepter chant is because while it will buy you game 1 against Survival, it ties up the resources of the deck without advancing your beats. Also, drawing a chant without the stick is almost as bad as not drawing, at best, you're using it as a fog or an insist. Granted, it's more flexible than either, but not good enough to be of use without the stick. With so many decks(outside of Survival of course) running artifact and enchantment removal at instant speed, Orim's Chant on a stick is often not as useful as something like Lightning Bolt. Bolt is a threat on it's own, Chant is not. You have to remember that for every non-aggressive control element you add, an aggressive elemental has to be removed. I'm not saying that it's not a viable choice, in fact, I think it could work well, but I don't think it's the direction the deck is going to move in, because it's a bit easier to naturalize a facet like that because of the speed factor. It's the same reason why a deck like Solidarity can stomp all over slow aggro like RGSA and lose its ass to faster aggro like Gobbos. Again, however, it is an extra dimension to the deck that will give some other decks issues, so I think it's kind of a judgement call. If you feel it'll be effective for you, run it.

[Slay]

I don't think it's as effective as a Fog or a Insist, as you put it. Against a deck that relies on permanents in play, such as Survival, a Chant is essentially a Time Walk. The argument is comparable to the use of Wasteland in Control decks. Against a deck that isn't so quick, a Wasteland will set the game back a turn, allowing you to abuse the tempo further.

I will say that against faster decks, Orim's Chant simply sucks. That's why it is a metagame consideration, but against pretty much all Survival, it's very very good.

*I might add, that all my testing with Chant vs. Survival has not consisted of aggressive decks, it's been ChantStick Control. But it's been excellent in you getting that one extra land drop to drop the Mage naming Survival.
-Slay

[SpikeyMikey]

Like I said, it'll buy you game 1 against Survival, it's everything else where it's subpar. I think against ATS, Scepter Chant will win game 1 every time.

[Bongo]

The decks natural weaknesses are to combo (that can outrace SD Zoos damage plan) and boardsweeping control (ala Landstill).
Against combo and Disk Artifact Mutation certainly is the most effective answer. Since most combos are artifact-based, Artifact Mutation might warrant a permanent sideboard slot.

My question is: Do you also run Naturalize? Or only Mutation?

Though Mutation is certainly more powerful, I'm very fond of the versatility Naturalize offers. Taking care of Pernicious Deed or Survival or any other nasty enchantment can be a real boon.

Congrats on the win!

[vegeta13613]

Thanks, Bongo.
I never thought I would end up playing one of the people who helped fine-tune my deck on The Source. Small world. Oh, and as always, great job Al. I gotta say, it was mostly luck on my part. In the 3 or 4 tournament results I saw for the original deck, the only time it didn't take first is when Landstill beat it out.

I don't have very much tournament experience, especially in 1.5, but from what I've seen there aren't many enchantments that you really need to worry about. I think you hit on the two that really pose a problem for this deck. Naturalizing a Survival, in my experience, does little to slow Survival decks down, as they can respond, and they have Witness. I don't think it does enough here to be worth a slot. The same can be said for Deed (they can respond), although the majority of the time they won't have the mana. I have to say that I almost always end up using my Naturalizes on artifacts, as there really aren't many enchantments you really need to worry about- at least in my area.

Dystopia, possibly CoPs, Enchantress' Pressence, Energy Field, Back to Basics, Parallax Wave, and a few other enchantments (just based on what I've actually seen at tournaments) would be nice to hit, but they are fairly few, and none will pretty much mean a loss for you (unlike the two mentioned above).

My vote is for 4 Mutations 0-2 Naturalizes. Any thoughts from more experienced players?

[bigredmeanie]

I really like Artifact Mutation, I have been running it in Survival-Welder board. I think the assumption about killing enchantements is correct. There really aren't that many most people need to worry about. I think a few exceptions would be something like Worship or Solitary Confinement. But the effect that Mutation can have, destroying a Scepter or a Crucible can be game winning. I think maybe 2 Naturalize and 3 Mutation could be good if your worried about being able to kill problematic enchantements.

[scrumdogg]

This may seem out on a limb...but could more specific enchantment targeted hate be viable? Cards like Scour specifically were what I was considering... I realize that the CC may be an issue, but Zoo seems to end up with a lot of land in the matchups where it 'baits' control, it should have the ability to cast Scour-type cards.

List of cards to potentially use: Targets:
Scour SotF (duh) :p
Aura Fracture Enchantress Presence
Abolish (lose no tempo while using it) Humility
Ray of Revelation Parallax Wave
Tranquil Grove BtB/Blood Moon

These lists aren't comprehensive & can be expanded or is the versatility of Naturalize worth running it as an added artifact destruction spell?

BTW, Erik may very well become another of my nemeses...I have only a .500 record against him in sanctioned play - almost always in T2, T4, T8. Vegeta is one of the three best players left north of Syracuse and I always take a matchup against him very seriously.

[SpikeyMikey]

Well, while there are less enchantments out there to hit, the ones that there are tend to be more debilitating than the artifacts. Mutation was in the board in the intial testing phase of the deck, but the format was a little different back then. Naturalize got the nod because for a while we were testing against mono-u, and while Shackles were bad, B2B was incredibly debilitating. Of course, back then, the deck's single basic land was a Forest. Now, with a basic Plains and a basic Mountain, the build isn't as scared of B2B and Blood Moon, while both are bad, neither is game ending. I would still think you'd want to run 4 Naturalize simply because of Survival.

[vegeta13613]

So, are you saying that essentialy without Survival in the format, you wouldn't need to run enchantment hate in SDZ? If so, I agree, but like I said before, Naturalize really doesn't cut it. I suppose you could argue that it sets them back far enough where they're spending mana casting their Witness to grab the Survival back and recast it, but is that enough? Is it enough of a tempo loss for them that you can sneak in and win the game before they go off? I've had this conversation before, and it seems that the answers always turns out "no."

I like the idea of Scour a lot, but is it fast enough? I'll do some testing this week, but it seems that unless you go first and/ or get a Wearbear out early, it's too little too late. It seems that Ray of Revelation is still our best bet as it is a huge hit versus Survival and can be a good tool versus quite a few other decks out there.

With only one Survival deck in the area, I'm likely going for 4 Artifact Mutations, 0 enchantment hate.

[SpikeyMikey]

Well, a Naturalize on Survival on turn 2 is effective, although I'll agree that when they actually get to use Survival, it becomes less effective. If I were truly worried about Survival(if it were heavy in my area), I'd probably devote some board slots to a Bayou and some Planar Voids. I don't think there's a better Survival hoser than Planar Void, although Scour is nearly as effective, I would think.

[scrumdogg]

Scour might be what the deck needs to deal with SotF as it should be castable Turn 4. SD Zoo will probably miss a land drop in that time but be able to cast either Werebear or Tithe. While the Survival player will have had some opportunity to use SotF, he/she/it will not have had time to go berserk - they will still be setting up. Once Survival is gone, they go straight into topdeck mode - with some sub-optimal draws possible, including Anger, Squee, etc. The more I think about it, the more I need to shuffle up some actual cards and test Scour - especially against SotF, everything else is slow enough to almost guarantee enough land in play to cast at leisure.

[Bongo]

Contrary to popular belief, I have found that the best way to fight Survival decks isn't through enchantment hate, it's through mana denial.
Survival decks are incredibly mana-hungry, and if you shut down their mana, they are unable to do something threatening.

However, I still feel that you shouldn't abandon enchantment hate completely. Right now I'm testing Ray of Revelation and Erase.

Erase is better against Survival because it can be played earlier than Scour and can be imprinted on the stick. Although Scour is more powerful, Erase serves the same purpose, that is to slow the Survival player down. Granted, there might be a second copy in his hand, but the probability of that is pretty low.
The opponent may also search out another copy and play it, but that costs him tempo and mana. You should be able to convert that advantage into a victory.

If there isn't much Survival running around, by all means run a few copies of Ray of Revelation in the sideboard.

-Bongo

[Bongo]

Tinkering around with my sideboard, this is what I've got:

4x Orims Chant
4x REB
3x Artifact Mutation
2x Samite Ministration
2x Ray of Revelation

Ray of Revelation proved to be better than Erase, since ATS or Welder Survival can quickly find another copy or simply counter Erase. With Ray of Revelation, you either destroy two enchantments, or you destroy one and bait one counter. If someone uses two counters for your Ray, well, then it has done its job. Although I haven't played against Enchantress, Ray should be better here as well.

Lately, I have fallen in love with REB, as it improves your bad matchups (combo and control) dramatically.

One question though: I saw that some people were using Hidden Gibbons. Against burn, I'd rather have Samite Ministration, preferrably on a stick.
What was your reason to run Hidden Gibbons?

[vegeta13613]

The versatility of Gibbons should be clear. It's essentially a one-drop 4/4 versus Burn, Control, and a host of other decks. At the very least, you'll be making them hold back for quite a bit. A turn one Gibbons is amazing. What can they do? FoW it? Good, then you got 2-for-1 card advantage and a point of damage for one measly green mana. If they hold back on their instants, it's just as good for you as having the 4/4. Think of all the decks out there that use a lot of instants, you should be able to see why people want to use this card.

Ministration is great also, we all know it has its uses, and is great on a stick (assuming you draw both and don't end up casting the stick with something else before you draw the Ministration).

Like so many SB slots, Gibbons and Ministration are a meta call.

I agree 100% on the REBs, they're great.

[SpikeyMikey]

REB vs. Solidarity? To be honest, given the nature of the deck, I think you'd be better off running Scald. You're an aggressive deck with a heavy burn component anyway, and the burn certainly isn't gonna be aimed anywhere but the head playing against LStill or Solidarity, and Solidarity *cannot* go off with Scald on the table, something they can do through an REB or 3... Last I checked, they win by tapping their basic Islands 2 or 3 times each, generating mana to storm up for Brain Freeze. If they're taking one each time an Island is tapped, that means that chances are they're going to take 8-12 from a Scald, meaning they aren't doing anything until they find a way to get rid of it. At worst, it's doing 4 damage(3 for Cunning Wish and 1 for Chain of Vapor), which for 2 mana is better than Incinerate, and chances are, it's doing a great deal more than that.

Against Control, especially against one with expensive answers like Landstill, you're still looking at Scald=5 damage for Disk or 4 for Cunning Wish+BEB.

In the mean time, while they're looking for solutions to Scald, they're either taking damage for drawing cards or they're letting you beat them senseless with Trolls and Boyscouts while they try and avoid casting spells.

[vegeta13613]

I agree with you Spikey... and then I don't. Scald is better vs. a few decks, but only those who run almost exclusively Islands (or duals that count as Islands).

Vs. Solidarity, Scald is better, hands down, but REB can stop them as well. One counter can stop the deck for going off for quite awhile, you just need to know what to counter (almost always the draw, not the untap). Solidarity was another deck I tested for a bit.

If they know you have Scald, they can also sometimes times play around it, as lots of decks are runnning multiple fetchlands.
I think this deck should run Chant in the SB (although it is my least favorite SB slot at this point), and if you're running Chant and REBs, you should be able to handle Solidarity already.

I think REB is probably a better overall card for this deck just because of the fact that you can put it on a stick. If it wasn't for that, it would be a tie for me.

Also, don't forget that Landstill generally runs something like 6-8 manlands and 3-4 Wastelands, quite a few non-Islands.


Edit:
Here's my current SB (still a work in progress)-
Ray of Revelation x4
Artifact Mutation x4
REB x4
Chant x3

[SpikeyMikey]

Solidarity can go off in response to Chant, has Orim's Chant really been useful for you in that matchup? I don't think I'd even board it in. REB on a stick is sexy, and that's something I hadn't looked at. As far as the other lands in Landstill, with the exception of Conclave, they don't produce blue. Factories and Wastelands are fine for colorless mana, but it's still problematic for them. Scald is also absolutely amazing against BBS. I guess the power of blast on a stick makes it a pretty close call, I've just been a fan of Scald for years now.

[scrumdogg]

Scald is good, but with REB being Stick-able I agree that it probably has the edge. Scald dies to way too many of Landstill's options while not hitting enough of their manabase. Reb + Chant gives you a much better shot versus Solidarity - especially the mono-U version. U/w will try to Chant/Abeyance you if at all possible when they go off - which REB by itself cannot handle. Chanting in response to their C/A stops them much of the time because they must have an untap effect resolve - which stops the stack. REB against their primary untap effect also lurches them to a halt unless they have FoW in hand (which is still card disadvantage). San Diego Zoo has enough of a clock to settle for temporary (and tempo...) disruption as a path to victory against combo. The ability make that disruption more semi-permanent via The Stick is a bonus that shouldn't be overlooked.

[vegeta13613]

The same time I saw someone suggest Chant vs. Solidarity on a forum, I almost put up a post saying "can't they go off in response?" It took me quite awhile to remember they needed an untap spell to resolve to go off.

A question- Should Tithe be in this deck? I keep going back and forth. It's really a great card early on, and late-game it's good also, especially if it went in the deck in the place of a land because it helps getting to threshold, thins your deck, and if need be can be sticked for crazy deck thinning. Should we be including this card? If so, can we cut, for exmple, 2-3 lands for 2-3 Tithes? Maybe this card would not work well in my deck, as I have 7 lands that can't produce W or fetch lands that can (although making it 3-5 lands that can't produce W would be easy with this deck).

Oh, and I want everyone to know that 'Derm has been amazing for me. I've EXTENSIVELY tested both cards in the slot in the past few weeks, and 'Derm's the clear winner for me. It can beat through a Wall of Blossom, a Baloth, and a lot of other cards. With a Troll, you would need 2 mana to regenerate AND a burn spell in addition to the Troll to kill a lot of of bigger creatures that Blastoderm can deal with all by itsself.



For those who care (and too bad for those that don't), here's my current decklist-

//NAME: San Diego Zoo
// 1cc
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Kird Ape
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
// 2cc
3 Werebear
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Magma Jet
4 Fire // Ice
4 Isochron Scepter
// 4cc
4 Blastoderm
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB: 4 Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 Artifact Mutation
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Orim's Chant



Well, I just want to thank everyone, I love how this deck has evolved since the first post. It's good to have a place where you can have an intelligent discussion about a deck.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Just as a note about Scald, you all should know that Solidarity can easily go off with it in play. They can tap lands for mana, and then cast spells in response to the Scald triggers. Since everything they cast is instant-speed, even the untap effects, they can just keep going and going, always one step ahead of taking any damage.

Of course, they have to find a way to actually kill you before the triggers resolve, but that really doesn't offer a significant obstacle. The best thing Scald can do against Solidarity is deal them between 0 and 6 damage while they optimize their hand in the turns prior to going off.

Chant, on the other hand, actually disrupts them while they are comboing off. You can effectively counter their High Tide by Chanting in response to it, or you can get more greedy and Chant them in response to a draw spell, hopefully forcing a fizzle and the loss of more cards, as well as possibly an extra turn if you responded to Meditate. Chant on a stick is also pretty good, since you can use it proactively during your upkeep to cut them off of Reset.

REB is good too; if you can nail the Solidarity player's scarce resource with a REB and they don't have Force of Will, they'll probably fizzle. REB on a stick is obviously amazing, too, since it can interfere with both their hand optimization and their combo attempts.

My current favorite answer to Solidarity is Boil, but it only works in conjunction with other hate, because of its cost. Generally you can count on most hate cards to buy you at least a turn against Solidarity, even if they have the Force (losing cards slows them down). If you can live until you have 4 mana, and draw out a Force doing so, Boil will straight up win an awful lot of games. The look on your opponent's face when you respond to High Tide by blowing up all of his lands is priceless.

If Solidarity is a major metagame concern for you, sideboarding in 8-12 cards may be warranted. The nice thing is that a lot of Solidarity hate cards (REB, Boil, Chant) are good to have in other matches too, so boarding so much hate doesn't end up being as silly as it sounds.



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1112394993

[SpikeyMikey]

That's an excellent point about Scald, it's something I hadn't really thought about, although they still have a hard time digging to set up their combo. I will recant and say that REB is better than Scald for SDZ.

I guess I should stop theorizing and actually sit down and play the deck once in a while :D

[cheeseman]

Is Isochron Scepter now regularly put into Zoo? I've heard and seen positive results with and without, so is the Scepter a must-include? Just wondering.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's been a must include in SDZ since the beginning. There was some brief discussion of removing it, but it died rather quickly.

[MoxSlaver]

I've built this deck though I'm still some cards short in the mana base, and have been looking to test it in my area though haven't had the time as yet to do this though I do have a couple of questions. I've noticed that there are two white creatures that have threshold and fly and I'm wondering as to why they wouldn't be considered for this deck, or whether Horned Kavu has ever been considered for this deck. And if so what are the reasons behind their exclusion in the deck?

[cheeseman]

In my area, Savannah Lions and/or Isamaru, Hound of Konda have been used to combat Goblins/Sligh. Are these decks prominent enough to warrant such an inclusion? IMHO, they are the only way to try and outrace combo, although that is pretty rare game 1.

[vegeta13613]

I'm not exactly sure which white threshold creatures you were discussing, as there are quite a few white creatures with the threshold ability that either have or gain flying.
In my opinion, none of the ones I saw were worthy of the deck. Probably the best one for the deck would be Mystic Crusader (1ww for a 2/1 pro red/ pro black. Threshold- gets +1/+1 and flying). Although I agree this is a nice card, at the 3cc slot we have Trolls, which seems like a better pick to me (I say skip the 3-drops completely and go with 4 Blastoderms. Not having 3cc cards doesnt hurt you really, it just allows you to play a 2cc AND a 1cc card on turn 3). If you really wanted it, Mystic Enforcer is probably a bit better, at one more mana than Crusader and the same cc as Blastoderm, but, with no testing to back me up on this, I'd have to say 'Derm is slightly better in this deck.

As for the other one-drop creatures- remember to always first include 4 Kird Apes. After that, if you really feel you must include Lions/ Isamaru, you could always cut the 4 Nimble Mongoose. My vote is once again for not changing the deck. The threshold ability is amazing for a one-drop critter, and the untargerability will help you a lot versus the Goblins/ Sligh decks. From the games I have played with the deck, it seems to me this deck really doesn't need to fear either of these other decks anyways, both have been fairly easy wins.

[Watcher487]

*Disclaimer: This post is not actually by Watcher487, and is instead by one of his co-workers*


That said, i play a similar deck to this, altho its a lot heavier on the one drops, and dropped the stick

4 Kird Ape
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Savannah Lion

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 STP

4 Cursed Scroll

4 Tithe
4 Land Grant

4 Savannah
4 Plateau
4 Tiaga
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Tormods Crypt
4 Tranquil Domain
4 Meltdown
3 Artifact Mutation


It went 4-0 last week in Albany...

Anyways... my question for SDZ is why doesnt it run the Guildmage? It stomps elves, birds, ball lightnings if the opponent isnt paying attention, and all sorts of other little irritants, and also often fills in for a few final points of Endgame burn.

[SpikeyMikey]

I had actually dropped a thread in New and Developmental about 3 Deuce, but it died quickly. I think the main reason that SDZ doesn't run Granger or Fireslinger or anything like that is because it focuses more on slightly bigger critters. It's a midrange aggro control, whereas 3 Deuce is a weenie aggro control. My question for you is why no Wax/Wane in your 3 Deuce? No Survival in your meta?

[MoxSlaver]

@Vegeta
Thanks for your input on that and Mystic Crusader was one of the two I was thinking of, I can't remember the name of the other one though. And I totally agree with you about the Kird Apes, I've got two right now and I'm fixing to add the other two to my deck when I find them. Oddly enough Kird Ape seems to be a little hard to find right now where I live.

@Watcher
I'm curious about your SB choices? Is your local meta really artifact and enchantment heavy that you'd want to keep that much hate in your SB?

[aventisfar]

Does this deck really need the 4 swords with so much burn?

Watcher487, do you think Cursed scroll is better than scepter in this deck? I don't think so. It's easy to find an imprintable card and it does more damage for less mana, and you don't need to empty yor hand.

[Watcher487]

*Disclaimer: this post is Also not by watcher487, but is instead by the same coworker as the prior one*


Spikey: The reason for no wax/wane is because tranquil domain destroys All global enchantments for 1G at instant speed. While there are survival decks about, the domain is better agains the enchantress decks, and still works the same as wane for survival

Mox: the only decks that give me a hard time are the artifact and enchantment based decks... i have no fear of creatures, what with all my removal and all

avent: The swords are needed due to the tradewinds, kokushos, titans, verdants, and diverse other 4+ toughness/ pro-red boys. the scrolls are more effective then scepters for me, because of how quickly the deck goes empty handed.

[aventisfar]

avent: The swords are needed due to the tradewinds, kokushos, titans, verdants, and diverse other 4+ toughness/ pro-red boys.
True :;):

the scrolls are more effective then scepters for me, because of how quickly the deck goes empty handed.
You can also use scepters with an empty hand, I don't see why scroll might be better. And you don't need to keep a card in hand if you want to do it in his turn.
I still think scepters are better. In this deck.

Another curious thing about your deck is the land configuration, you don't play fetchlands:

4 Tithe
4 Land Grant

4 Savannah
4 Plateau
4 Tiaga
4 Wasteland

The 8 mana search cards allows you playing only 16 lands, and with 4 wasteland, a really useful card in the format. They'ill also fat your graveyard, the same as fetchlands would, but you don't have to pay the life (I know that's ridiculous but is a factor).
Although, that takes 24 slots at last, when you could play 20 lands like the deck on the top and you'll still fat your graveyard with the fetchlands. But you gain wastelands... Damn...
I don't know... What do you think, guys?

Edit: I've just noticed you don't play threshold cretures :-P, even though, this mana configuration could work even better with this ability, it could be an idea for the deck purposed on the top.

[Watcher487]

*usual disclaimer*

I dont play Sac-lands because there is a lot of random burn in the local meta... at least for the first 2 rounds of the tourney...


As for scepter VS Scroll.... i picked up my 4th scepter last week... and ill try it next week... im always willing to try something that May work better.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't think you could convince me to play Grant over Fetches in any non-storm deck, I'd far rather take the loss of a point or two over revealing my hand. I suggested Wax/Wane because it gives you some maindeck enchantment hate against Survival/Enchantress without leaving dead slots against decks that don't run any enchantments. 3 Deuce is supposed to be the model of efficiency, that's how the deck wins.

[Kenderleech]

*I am the person who has been posting as Watcher487 from work*

Why would you not play the grants, Spikey?

The deck empties its hand quickly enough that it has made a difference perhaps twice in 3 months of playing the deck every other week or so. Also, Land Grant is Incredibly easier on my wallet then sac lands... and with the choice between food and little bits of (barely) edible cardboard, i would rather get a large bag of rice and some bullion cubes, Y'know?

[SpikeyMikey]

If it's a budget choice, that's fine, but Grant is completely an totally inferior in any deck that's not winning with a high storm count. Seeing your opponent's hand is a *huge* advantage, if you've never seen someone counter a Duress, you haven't been playing long enough. Belcher gets away with it because Belcher can't afford to run more lands and it doesn't care if you see it's hand, it's trying to win turn 1/2 every game. The advantage of running 3 Deuce over something like Sligh is that you've got more tricks. What you're doing is playing a slower 3 color Sligh. 3 Deuce works on forcing your opponent into making bad plays, allowing you to get consistant beats across while slowing down the tempo of the game by mucking up the board with cheap, highly efficient creatures that with few exceptions have some useful ability. It's a Fish deck that doesn't counter things. It is the archetypal Aggro-Control. Honestly, if you want to talk about it more, there's a 3 Deuce post in the New and Developmental Forum on the second page, we keeping going on about it in here, we're going to get the thread locked.

[Kenderleech]

My apologies... I'll just shunt myself over there then. I am curious if You have played 3deuce, or its variants.. but feel free to take it to PM or some other form of contact (god knows i have enough of them, lookit the icons fer Ertai's sake!)

[aventisfar]

So on one hand we've got DavidHdez's (Vegeta's is very similar, with one more tithe):

2 tithe

3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
4 plateau
4 taiga
4 savannah
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains
- don't have to show his hand.
- not affected by counters or duress.
- mana free search.
- 22-23 slots.

And on the other hand, Kenderleech's:


4 Tithe
4 Land Grant

4 Savannah
4 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
- Avoids life-losing.
- plays wastelands (very important factor)
- 24 slots.

I give a tie in threshold.

So the question is if wastelands worth it in your metagame.

I have another question about this deck. When do you play scepters? At the beggining to let your first drop attack each turn (so you probably have to leave other 2cc creatures in hand) or when you've already played all your critters?

[vegeta13613]

I think it's important to note that the deck has developed since the manabase you have quoted. Although it might not be pertinent to this particular conversation (fetch vs. Land Grant), I think we have come to the general consensus that-

1) This deck needs about 21 lands to perform optimally.
2) You should be running 8 fetch to speed up threshold and smooth out the problems with not having the right color mana.
3) Tropical Island, x1, should be played in the deck to allow you to play Ice in sticky situations.
4) Tithe is not needed. This is the only one I am not sure about (read my post on the bottom of the last page for more info).

Edit-
I just noticed that only Bongo and I have posted fairly recent decklists. Does everyone else agree with these developments to the mana base of the deck?

[scrumdogg]

I'm torn on this because as much as I hate revealing my hand, the ability to run Wasteland in an environment full of Landstill is important. Also, more Landstill decks seem to be running Stifles - which lost me Game 1 in the finals in VT when 2 out of my first 3 mana sources were Stifled. I never recovered. SDZoo with Artifact Mutation has a decent shot games 2 & 3 against Landstill...although Landstill will adapt by shifting to the Akromas Vengeance model (making Artifact Mutation still good but not as decisive) which in turn makes Wasteland even better because you need to stop them from hitting 6 mana (or even WW early). Wasteland also improves game 1 quite a bit, which should be important since Landstill should eat SDZoo's face most every game 1 (it has in my experience anyway) :cool: I also like Tithe...a lot. It has been amazing in Angel Stompy, thinning the deck and securing ongoing land drops. It serves exactly the same purpose here and with exactly the same path - we need fewer mana sources than most opponents to function well, forcing them to drop land (not usually a difficult job....) and benefitting us. My only major concern with the Land Grant manabase posted was the utter lack of basics. That is a recipe for suicide, imho, and needs to be addressed.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the choice is really between 6xfetch and 2x Tithe v. 8xFetch. If you're running the Trop, the 8x fetch is better, if not, I'm a huge fan of fetching up 2 lands with Tithe. Twice the fun of fetches. I think the real issue isn't Wasteland and Grant or Fetches and no Wasteland, it's Wasteland or Basic Land. Personally, I vote basics, as there are matchups where not having basic lands=autoloss, and running 4 Wastelands without Crucible in the deck is barely effective, especially in a meta filled with Survival decks running queer rangers. You don't have any other mana disruption, outside of burn for the mana critters, so I don't think having the 4 unless you need to improve your Landstill matchup at a significant cost against everything running Blood Moon, B2B, or Crucible/Waste(which you can generally function around on 3 basics, if you fetch them early). I think if you're not running the Tithes, you probably want 23 lands to function normally, at least in an environment with a Wasteland presence.

I was in the process of posting when Scrum posted, so he kinda covered the Wasteland vs. basics thing. I think because Landstill is the only matchup in which Wasteland is so useful, and because Landstill is running Wastes of it's own as well as Crucible, I'd rather have the basics.

[Kenderleech]

I don't see very much non-basic hate other then Wasteland locally. Very few people run crucible/waste no matter how good it is against a lot of things, but it is one of the reasons the board i assembled is so heavy on the artifact destruction. I have yet to encounter a game where not having basics was an auto-loss, because the version I play is just fast enough to squeak through, and it only really requires 1-2 lands in play, plus I do run rangers to protect 8 of my non-wasteland lands.

[Obfuscate Freely]

If you run a 24-card manabase, as Kenderleech does, fitting Wastelands in should not be a problem at all. You end up with something like:

4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
3x Forest (the 4th duals could go here if you don't fear nonbasic hate)
1x Mountain
1x Plains

This manabase has 18 green sources, 12 red sources, and 12 white sources. It also has 5 basics. That's pretty damn healthy. And Wasteland is a good card for SDZ, since colorless mana is actually useful (thus it isn't just a Landstill hate card).

I also wanted to point out that Land Grant actually has poor synergy with Wasteland. I've played the two in decks before, and having a Wasteland in your hand when you need Land Grant to fetch you colored mana is a bitch.

I'm not a big fan of Tithe, anyway. This deck is fairly mana hungry, so finding open mana to play Tithe is hard enough, let alone keeping your land count below your opponent's. I'd rather run Flooded Strand.

[cheeseman]

Being able to fit Wasteland in, as has been shown in several previous posts, is a must-do. The great thing about Zoo in general is its flexibility and amazing utility, and being able to knock out an important mana source of an opponent only adds to the decks overall game against a wide variety of archetypes. While it may "dilute" the mana base slightly, an already strong land configuration with an availability of duals and basics leaves very little room for mana-screw if you mulligan correctly.

[MoxSlaver]

@Cheese
I agree with that statement 100%. Thusly, I'm learning to mulligan correctly with this deck as I test it out.

Now on to what I need to say to all. I played Mono-black Control today and went 2-2 in friendly play. My opponent was playing a tourney deck as I. Although I don't have the fetchlands and duals needed for this deck to run effectively as it should. Though Mana wasn't my issue in any 4 of the games. Bad shuffles were my problem the first two games as I only saw 2 Legionaires game one, and 2 Blastoderms game 2 which I never cast due to never getting enough mana on the board until too late to matter.

Two things of note. Currenlty I'm using 4 Nantuko Monastaries, 7 Forests, 4 Mountains, 4 Plains, 1 Mirage fetchland, and 1 plateau. First Item of note was that on game 4, while I saw a good mix of my creatures, his removal was efficient and kept my side of the board empty. I achieved the same results as he couldn't keep any creatures on the board either. What won me the game was having the Nantuko's. So is this a card thats worth consideration. After today I can't help but wonder. Second item of note, I got a little frustrated with playing this deck top deck mode as all four of my games ended up playing in this manner due to his discard ability. What suggestions does everyone have when you have to play from top deck mode?

As a final thought, I feel confident that SDZ should beat Mono-Black most if not all the time as long as a persons creatures and burn don't sit on the bottom of the deck as mine did today.

Edit: Btw game 3 I side boarded Karma in, and that won me that game.

[nizculman]

Before providing my input on what I'd do differently with the deck let me describe my meta I play 1.5 regularly in Austin, Texas and there's a lot of U based control/landstill and ATS, and U/G madness, U/G threshold.

One thing i think zoo could do to tighten up the survival matchup and to give it alot better game against landstill game 1 is to drop the stick so seals can be used in place of some of the instants (lavadart could also be played for added card advantage if you see expect lots of weenies or pyrite spellbomb b/c its flexible removal that can lie under a standstill). This would probably change the core of the deck drastically since a reusable source of burn would probably need to be put in (lavamancer or cursed scroll). Isochron should also be dropped b/c its (a. control card, b. mana hungry, c. asking for card disadvantage) in a deck that tries to create 2/1 card advantage with a lot of its card choices. Does anyone play ENGINEERED EXPLOSIVES in your meta b/c it really wrecks this deck AS IS.

Another thing I'd change would be to get rid of about every spell in the deck that has two colors or a GG in its casting cost. This would strengthen the mana base and allow for inclusion of mishra factories(they help out against landstill 2). Personally i choose to play call of the herd over troll b/c although troll is great, call always equals card advantage and further helps out gm1 against Landstill. The expression on a landstill or fish players face is priceless when you cast call. I'd also replace the leoginarie with river boa b/c its easier on the mana base and if your going to cut troll you might as well add a solid regen creature. Madness is a really tough matchup for this deck and might warrant the inclusion of FTK. U/G threshold gives this deck fits regardless, flying mongooses are NO FUN.

[SpikeyMikey]

Why do you have to keep your land count beneath your opponent? If you've got more lands, then Tithe simply works like a fetch, you get 1 land. As a general rule, you're leaving mana open each turn, but often times, you can still Tithe EoT.

While Monastery is a great land, I think trying to force 8 colorless mana in a 3 color deck with no draw is suicidal, especially with only a single dual land and sub-optimal fetching. How on Earth does your mana base work?

[nizculman]

Sirocco a red instant that cost 1R out of mirage is a notable Sideboard card that should be looked @ against U based control and solidarity. Although i hate scepters in this deck and feel as though you guyz are running a suboptimal decklist b/c of some poor card choices Sirocco seems to fit the bill as a better SB card than Orim's Chant

[CavernNinja]

Sirocco seems like a very viable card against Solidarity but does not seem nearly as good agaisnt LandStill that actually runs a fairly small number of blue instants, Brainstorm, FoF, Force and CSpell are the only ones in the large majority of lists.

[nizculman]

blue instants contained in landstill

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Counterspell
3 Fire/Ice
2 Fact or Fiction

That's a whopping 21 U instants so for the mere investment of 2 mana and a card you can generally do.

A. Opponent wastes a counterspell
B. Opponent eats 4-8 damage or more
C. Opponent discards a card or two to keep from dying (this is even better than hymn b/c your getting spells)

[Obfuscate Freely]

U/W is currently accepted as the optimal color combination for Landstill, and Daze has never been in the deck. CavernNinja is right when he says that Brainstorm, Counterspell, Force, and Fact are the only blue instants the deck plays. That's around 14 total.

Of course, Brainstorm more or less "counters" Sirocco without costing a card. The Landstill player can cast the 'storm in response, and put any extra blue instants back on top of the library.

I would not bring in Sirocco against Landstill as the best you can get out of it is either drawing a counter or making them discard one. More often it will do nothing at all.

The card does seem solid against Solidarity, though. The only way Solidarity could beat a resolved Sirocco would likely involve the perfect 3 card hand of High Tide, Reset, and Meditate (and them paying 12 life to keep it), or a Brainstorm to hide important cards. Under most other circumstances it should heavily disrupt them. Sirocco is also one of the best anti-Solidarity cards to put on a Scepter since it is proactive, unlike REB. Second turn Stick imprinting Sirocco is close to a lock in that matchup.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You know, I'm going to go out of character and echo Artowis from the Vial Goblins thread; why are you running Wasteland without supporting LD spells, when there are more relevant colorless mana providers you could be playing? With the true powerlands of the format gone, Wasteland really doesn't need to be crammed into every deck. How often is the slight speed bump actually going to swing the game your way? Landstill is running Crucible now, and Survival decks really don't care that much as they have Witness. A 4/4 First Striking beating stick that dodges Wrath of God and counterspells seems more worthwhile. If you Wasteland a Factory or Conclave, they'll drop a Crucible and get it back in a turn or two. You know what gets around Crucible of Worlds? Beating to death the player it's enchanting with angry Monasteries.

[MoxSlaver]

@Spikey
Currently I only have 1 Mirage fetchland, so I'm using regrowth to get my lands into play. So I'm running 15 basic lands. As far as the mana base goes, it's somewhat stable, but slow. And given the fact that I don't think that I'll get the needed numer of fetchlands anytime soon, I am looking into using mox diamonds for the extra push mana wise though I still think that reaching threshhold will take too long. I was lucky in the fact that the mono black deck I played was slow as well, but against madness, goblins or any other deck that has a really fast clock, I don't expect my deck to beat them at this time until I can get at least the fetchlands.

[nizculman]

I'm sorry but i think you always play mishras B4 you play any other man land(except with affinity). By putting to big of a premise of your deck on the threshold mechanic (by including monasteries) your liable to get hosed by splash dmg(tormod's crypt). The deck can't rebuild itself up to threshold like gro can and your just encouraging people to side in crypts to keep your dorks (1/1's and your land producing colorless mana). Threshold is a cool mechanic and all but its fragile in a non-survival non card drawing deck.

[scrumdogg]

You know, I'm going to go out of character and echo Artowis from the Vial Goblins thread; why are you running Wasteland without supporting LD spells, when there are more relevant colorless mana providers you could be playing? With the true powerlands of the format gone, Wasteland really doesn't need to be crammed into every deck. How often is the slight speed bump actually going to swing the game your way? Landstill is running Crucible now, and Survival decks really don't care that much as they have Witness. A 4/4 First Striking beating stick that dodges Wrath of God and counterspells seems more worthwhile. If you Wasteland a Factory or Conclave, they'll drop a Crucible and get it back in a turn or two. You know what gets around Crucible of Worlds? Beating to death the player it's enchanting with angry Monasteries.
Ironically I agree with the sentiment although I dispute the point that the tempo slap provided by Wasteland doesn't provide enough opportunity for Zoo (a fairly fast deck) to take advantage & win. Monastery would be a great way to deal with Landstill if they did not feature both Wasteland and Crucible of Worlds. At this point, I am more comfortable wasting their first Tundra to slow down A) Counterspell B) Wrath of God C) Fact or Fiction/Disk and if it is Game 2 or 3 holding the Artifact Mutation/Naturalize/whatever for the Crucible of Worlds. In the meantime, I'm beating down with whatever I can & burning where appropriate.

[SpikeyMikey]

I've played with Sirocco before, a long time ago in T1 Sligh. It really seemed like an excellent idea, but the problem was, if an opponent had enough blue cards in hand for it to matter, it was going to be countered. If they didn't, they'd let it go. As has been mentioned, if they have Brainstorm, they can simply storm cards back onto their library and ignore it altogether. In essence, while it seemed like an excellent card, it was absolutely and utterly useless. I switched to Burnout shortly thereafter before finally settling on Scald as my board hate of choice against blue.

I think that if you're experiencing a lot of problems with decks that run bigger creatures than you, such as U/G Madness, you definitely need to be running Derm over Ascetic, and it probably wouldn't hurt to run Baloths as well.

[nizculman]

Why doesn't this deck play aether vial??

[cheeseman]

While it may be able to run Aether Vial at some evolution point, the current build now really likes to have a creature on the table first turn and be able to have a steady curve using available mana through at least the fifth turn. Basically, Aether Vial throws off the tempo for the current popular builds. I do, however, believe that it will someday be included.

[nizculman]

Here's a Rough Version of what i'd play, Vial does help with mana issues (legionaire without vial is retarded)and does free up the abilit to play a creature and removal on the same turn!! How does stick go into this deck B4 vial, this deck seems to need more help getting its creatures into play than casting instants...

Vial Zoo

Here's a Skeleton of the what i'd include if i was running with the aether vial with R/G/W

22 Lands (inclduing 4 mishra's)

Removal Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 STP

Core spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Kami of Ancient Law (i must live in the only state where people play Sotf)


Aether Vial should always be run with some form of card draw which leads to a difficult decision, do you cut the green untargetable theme b/c you can't use equipment with them generally or do you swap out 1 of the colors for b/u card draw??

Core for B/R/G vial zoo

22 Lands including: 4 Mishra's
Removal Spells
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Lightning Bolt

Card Draw
4 Night's Whisper
2 Skeletal Scrying

Core Components
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Troll Ascetic

These are just rough skeletons but i think vial is alot stronger and allows you to be more flexible with your mana and its loss in early tempo is generally made up on the 3rd turn when you can vial in some two casting cost dude on the same turn you played a troll or something.

[SpikeyMikey]

SDZ Core:

Isochron Scepter

Yup, that about covers it. Zoo operates on two principals, strong consistant beats, and a heavy, heavy burn contingient. Think about it. Goose is a good card to have in your opening hand, it's a solid creature, hard to get rid of. It's still good on turn 6, even if you're not maxing out your curve that turn, because chances are you've got a full yard, and it's now a 3/3. The model of efficiency. Why run Goblin Legionnaire? Nobody wants to block it, cuz it kills just about anything, and if it can't kill what you throw in front of it, you're taking 2 anyway. Efficient. Why Fire/Ice over something like Chain of Plasma, 3 damage and still scepterable? Ice on a stick is damn good, and splitting targets to eat little critters is a good thing™.

Zoo's role is simple. It is designed to be as efficient as possible when it comes to dealing damage. It's not the fastest, nor does it have the biggest threats. It's simply the best midrange aggro deck out there.

Vial is only efficient if you're using it every turn. Vial is efficient in decks that have a significant number of threats at any given cc. With SDZ, that's not going to happen. In fact, adding vial would mean *cutting* creatures. I just don't think that's a good idea.

[MoxSlaver]

While I see the usefulness of Vial, and it's ability to accelerate creature decks, I have to agree with Spikey as to whether Vial is a good card for Zoo. The main issue that I have with it is that after turn 4 or 5 Vial becomes dead weight in the deck. With the low casting cost of most of Zoo's cards Vial "may" be useful turn 2 and 3 to put out extra threats, yet as the deck stands and taking into consideration what has been said earlier in this thread, you don't necessarily want to drop all your creatures on the board in the first few turns. I've found that when I play, it's almost necessary to hold some of my creatures in my hand as I play, replacing killed creatures as they die. Then once threshold is met, dropping more creatures then. While Vial might be helpful in this, I don't believe it's necessary due to the fact that by the time threshold is met you should have plenty of mana on the board to do whatever you want.

[nizculman]

The reason why vial would be dead in your current builds is b/c you have no source of card draw. Scepter really is not a good choice in a deck without a way to protect itself, you have to be able to activate it 3 times to gain ardvantage and it slows you down just as bad/worst than vial IMO.

Vial SOLVES way Too many of this decks mana issues for it to be disregarded automatcilly without someone trying to build a zoo deck around it.

[CavernNinja]

I have not been following this close enough to know exactly what the currently optimal list is so I'm going to work off of the list on page 1.
Creatures:
1cc
4 nimble mongoose
3 savannah lions
2cc
4 goblin legionnaire
3 werebear
4cc
4 blastoderm

There are 7 creatures at 1cc, and 7 at 2 and only 4 at 4. This means that if you set the vial at 2 for Werebears and Legionnaires you are not going to be able to play the Lions and Mongooses at 1cc. If there was a higher concentration of cc at 2 maybe you could get away with it, but with so few creatures in the deck and so little to cut from the deck Vial has absoolutely no place in this deck.

[SpikeyMikey]

As you might have noted, I already mentioned that SDZ is not the fastest aggro deck in the format. It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be efficient(coulda swore I already said this...). Vial would quickly cease to be efficient, whereas the only time stick is a dead draw is when you peel it off the top with no cards in hand, a pretty rare instance. As a general rule, you should always be holding burn in hand, waiting to use it to finish off your opponent. Often times, even if you're not holding burn in hand, you can bait a counter with Scepter, two times in particular, early game turn 2 or 3 before a control player is set up, and late game, when they're sitting on 5 or 6 life, and can't afford to let a stick hit because it will create too many problems for them over the next couple turns.

Scepter also gives you the random "I win" factor post board against things like Goblins when you drop out a turn 2 stick with Orim's Chant on it. I'm not going to go over the pro-stick argument again, believe me, it was questioned when we first posted the decklist, and anyone that's played with the deck understands now how good it is.

If you want to test Aether Vial, be my guest, report back to us about how it's working out for you, but honestly, I've been working with this deck for going on 7 or 8 months now, and I really haven't experienced issues with the mana. I've heard people complain about having to leave mana open for things like Troll regen and Legionnaire while still being able to use Scepter, but as a general rule, you only need 3 mana at the most on any given turn, as after your attack step, you don't need to leave regen mana for Troll unless there's a Disk on the board, and if there's a Disk on board and you're beating with Troll, well, you're a happy customer even if you can't drop anything else due to mana constraints.

[SpikeyMikey]

The current, generally accepted creature base is

4xNimble Mongoose
3xKird Ape

4xLegionnaire
3xWerebear

4xTroll Ascetic

The only real slot that's ever changed is the Ascetic sometimes becomes Blastoderm in areas that are a little heavier with big creatures, namely Texas where U/G Madness is so popular.

[scrumdogg]

Quite frankly, if U/G Madness & its bevy of 4 toughness critters is an issue, why wouldn't FTK make a better substitute? Troll is still a house against control and much of the rest of the field while FTK seems to matchup better in an aggro-control deck than Blastoderm since it should remove a threat when it hits play and still present the threat of offense. It may not require as much chump blocking, but if that is a possibility then you aren't going to effectively race them with either creature anyway.... I have followed this thread since the inception but I don't remember this point being discussed.

[MoxSlaver]

I've considered FTK in my deck on a couple of occasions but have never thought it through thoroughly. Currently I run blastoderm in the 4cc slot and it works well for me, though I've only really needed it a couple of times. I think that I'll look into FTK some more though now that you mention it as it may be a viable option to either keep MD or in SB to swap out with Blastoderm.

[SpikeyMikey]

FtK is a fine solution as well, it just doesn't have the tail end suited for creature combat, although you can often use a Legionnaire's white ability to save it if necessary. I suggest Derm and Baloth in heavy creature environments because that's what worked for us when our meta was heavy in G/W. Without Brushhopper, FtK is probably just as good if not better than Derm is, I just never really gave it much consideration.

[scrumdogg]

FTK is definitely light on the ass-end, but U/G doesn't really have relevant blockers per se. U/G is also aggro-control and Wonder means that you can't block. Being able to guarantee taking down any creature they do have as a blocker (including insta-Wurms) should make FTK viable in a U/G heavy meta. FTK also has the possibility of taking out Exalted Angel in combo with any burn spell/ability. Large flying critters (especially those with abilities) are a concern for the deck. Is FTK the right call every time? Absolutely not. But I am wondering about slots for him, since increasing threat density is never a bad thing.

[aventisfar]

Hello, guys. Yesterday I played something very close this deck in a small legacy tourny (we were about 12). Level was high, no kids, decks to beat, no stupid mono-red decks :p .... One of the players recently won a 183-people vintage tourny here in Madrid. We played 4 rounds and I got only 6 points :( . Despite it was the first time I played this deck, I think I hadn't make a lot of mistakes. Well, perhaps I forgot a couple of times werebear's abilty to give mana ???

I said before "something close" to SDZ because I don't have all the cards I need. This was my deck:

4 goblin legionnaire
3 werebear
1 nimble mongoose (my only one)
3 kird ape
2 savannah lions
1 isamaru, hound of konda
2 blastoderm (I only have 2)
1 mystic enforcer (I played this because last week a mono-black won the tourny)
1 erhnam (I prefer derm but this was a nice plot agains baloths)

4 lightning bolt
4 Incinerate
2 fire // ice
4 swords to plowhares
2 Tithe

4 Isochrone scepter

4 Taiga
4 Savannah
4 Plateau
2 Windswept heath
1 Wooded foothills
1 CoB
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB.:
4 spreading algae
4 hidden gibbons
2 honorable passage
2 naturalize
2 tormod's
1 scald

Matches:

- 2-0. Against black with a lot of discard, the rack, and red splash.
He started vey well emptyintg early my whole hand, but I could play some weenies and a scepter and he blowed them with a disk (he also blowed his racks). I started again and won.
Next game I played early a spreading algae over a badlands and he got stucked. He had to use a painland several times and I could finish him with my horde and some bolts
- 0-2. Solidarity.
He combed me both on the third turn.
First game I got a lot of lands and couldn't even hurt him.
On the second game I was going to win him on the next turn, so he tried to play the combo on his 3rd, and succeded. When he first played high tide I fast played an ice over his untapped island . But then I couldn't find my blue mana :p . So he won. If I have had a tropical or a city of brass I would have won this game.
- 0-2. Survival, with recurring nightmare and the combo phage-volrath's shapeshfter. And worship.
First game: I got a lot of creatures and I was going to win him when he drew a Worship.
Second game: I could imprint a StP to a scepter and I thought I had won because he SB-out all naturalizes since he didn't saw my scepters on the previous game. But I couldn't hurt him at all because he played several walls. He could play an angel with protection from all the colours (I can't remember the name), and then worship, and won. Another time... just for one turn.
- 2-0. Another mono-black with discard, negators and scepters.
His first negator was a nice armageddon for him. I won with scepter.
On the second match he included the whole SB in the deck and I even won easily. I finished him with 2 derms one after the other.

After the tourny, a friendly match:
- 1-3. Landstill with splash of red (lavamancer against elves, bolts).
I lost two games because of the crucible lock. The other one was because I drew 11 lands and 5 spells. Counters also hurt me lot
The game I won was just because I could get a lot of creatures.

Conclusions:

- Threshold is not so easy to get in this deck (unless you play against black discard). Maybe the lack of fetchlads in my built was crucial. It is supposed that you have to empty your hand very fast because the deck has a lot of burn, but that's not how you have to play the deck: you have to use burn agains his creatures, so keep them in hand. I got threshold about in 4-5th turn, and in some matches I just couldn't reach it. Anyway, everybody kills werebears just before they could activate this ability. Nimble mongoose is not he same, but it's still a 1/1 during 4-5 turns, in this time my kird apes could make at least 6 damage (against 1-3).
- Isochrone scepter is the best play of the deck. I prefer imprinting incinerate or bolt and spending fire // ice against weenies.
- Blastoderms are cool and I will play 4 next time. Legionnaires are so.
- I missed wastelands a lot, especially against landstill. But I know it's quite difficult to fit them.
- It's very very important to keep the three basic lands, they're the only way to keep going against a crucible-wasteland lock. Here fetchlands are also crucial.
- Tithe wasn't very useful. Even though I only played 3 fetchlands I had no problems getting the mana colours I needed (except blastoderm, every spell needs one only coloured mana). And the deck is fast, it works all right with olny 2 lands. I SB it out in every match and had no problem.
- In some matches if you don't have naturalize you simply lose.

Solutions:

- I'd probably change tithe for naturalize in the MD.
- I will play 4 kird apes. Who cares about removal? This deck has a lot of creatures. I just want to attack every early turn, and with mongoose I can't.
- I will also change werebears for river boas, at least until I get the 2 fetchlands I need. They're fast, they're tough and they're islandwalk. Most of the time, bears are just... elves.

Any comments?

[MoxSlaver]

@Avent

Without the fetchlands, reaching threshold quickly is hard. That is one of my concerns as I don't have the fetchlands right now either to run this deck properly. As for changing the werebears for river boas, I wouldn't suggest that. Werebears are essential in getting out a turn 3 Blastoderm which can shift the game to your favor at that point because it causes your opponent to deal with the threat quickly opening up a chance for you to burn them, or they have to figure out how to keep from taking 15 damage over the course of the next three turns. By that time you should have reached threshold which gives your other creatures the chance to finish you opponent, or to finish them off with burn.

I don't know if you have taken the time to do this yet, but you really need to read through this entire forum as there are several answers and solutions to your concerns already posted in this forum for Zoo.

[vegeta13613]

I took my SDZ deck to a major 1.5 in Syracuse this Saturday. I was told there were 73 people in attendance (but heard later there were a few less than that). In the end, I managed to pilot the deck to second place. I lost because of a horrible misplay. I tapped 2 of my 3 lands on my turn 3 to cast a Werebear, but I forgot to leave myself a land that produced red so that I could burn off my opponent's Exalted Angel before he could morph it next turn. From the way the game played out, I am 99% certain if it was not for that mistake the game would have been mine (and therefore the round and first place). Lack of sleep and food causes migraines, which cause misplays. I had a few pretty bad misplays in the finals, but that was the only one that cost me a game. The entry fee was $20, I picked 4x Underground Seas and 4x Savannah as my prizes.

//NAME: San Diego Zoo
// 1cc
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Kird Ape
2 Tithe
// 2cc
4 Magma Jet
4 Fire // Ice
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Goblin Legionnaire
3 Werebear
// 4cc
4 Blastoderm
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB: 4 Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 Artifact Mutation
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Orim's Chant

If I learned anything from the tournament it was that Blastoderm absolutely cannot be replaced with Ascetic. I had a good idea this was the case before, but after seeing my opponent with 2 Factories, a 4/4 Werebear, Ravager, Exalted Angel, etc, I know that there really is no comparison between the two in this deck (I have posted ideas about this before, so there's no reason to go on).

This is the most consistant deck I have ever played. First of all, I did not mulligan once the entire day that I remember of. Also, this deck has almost no bad matchups. Fast combo is the only thing that really worries this deck, but even that is winable after sideboarding.

Anyways, this was my first tourament with over 20 or so people, and it was a great experience. It seemed like a gathering of people from The Source. I met a person who said he was Diablos and I saw scrumdogg, peter_rotten, and a host of other lesser-known people from The Source were there.

Edit:
As a note, this deck went 2-0, 2-0 vs UG Madness; 2-0, 2-1 vs Landstill; 2-0, 2-1 vs Affinity; 2-0 vs Gro and 1-2 vs Angel Stompy in the finals. UG Madness is generally not a problem for this deck, as can bee seen from the results and my previous testing. Affility, if given a good hand can outrace this deck, but after sideboarding, they don't have much of a chance. Landstill is a bit iffy, but my sideboard was fine-tuned for the matchup. I had a bit of a problem with their Pulse of the Fields, but if you mana burn yourself, you can get around it. Gro was much like Madness. Angel Stompy isn't a great matchup for this deck with all of it's anti-red cards, but it is, at worst, a 50-50 (if you're playing carefully, anyways).

[SpikeyMikey]

Congratulations Veg, I'm glad you did well. I'll have to email Chris, and let him know. I'm sure he'll be proud that our baby did so well :D

I know how it feels to lose to lack of sleep, I did it at GP LA a few years ago, went 4-2(maybe it was 5-2?) the first day and dropped. All the wins were 2-0s and both losses were 1-2, decided by me attempting to draw a card off Butcherer Orgg with Wirewood Savage after an all-nighter. Obviously, drawing extra cards is a game loss. I could've probably went perfect through the swiss portion of GP LA, easily putting me into day 2 and the Amatuer prize(I still to this day have no pro points). I then proceeded to play in the T1 side after I dropped from the Sealed, and managed to go 1-4 with the stupidest Dragon(this is before Entomb was restricted) ever legal. At least you still finished well! :D

[Bongo]

Congratulations on your second place!

Hopefully this will help to make SD Zoo more popular, as it is quite underrated in my opinion.

My build is pretty similar to yours, but I still have a few questions:


1) How's Tithe been doing for you? I don't like the card in SDZ as you are using most of your mana for threats in the early game where Tithe has the most impact. 8 Fetchlands also fulfill some of the functions of Tithe.

2) I count 61 cards in your deck. Is that intentional? What would you cut?

3) Kird Ape has been great for me, and I think the fourth copy should be included. It is of utmost importance to put early pressure on your opponent, so having 8 onedrops would be the logical conclusion.

Great job!

-Bongo

[aventisfar]

Congratulations, vegeta13613, your results encourages me to improve my built. I see fetchlands are key and I would not play the deck until I have at least 5-6.

I also have a battery of questions for you:
- You played a lot of fetchlands, 8, that was because you didn't have all savannahs and/or taigas? or just because you prefer them?

- As bongo said, won't you add the 4th kird ape since it has more impact on early turns than nimble mongoose. With other words: isn't better to play 4 apes and 3 mongooses?

- Could you explain your SB-out choices on each match.

- Magma jet is a good imprintable card? Or you wait for fire/ice or bolt?



I don't know if you have taken the time to do this yet, but you really need to read through this entire forum as there are several answers and solutions to your concerns already posted in this forum for Zoo.
In proccess. :;):

[vegeta13613]

Well, you may have noticed that for a time I did drop Tithe from my build (I believe it ended up being -2 Tithe, +1 Kird Ape to make the deck an even 60). For the 61 cards question, its simply that I had a hard time cutting a card. Although I've never gone to 62+ cards, I really don't have a problem going to 61 if I don't know what to cut. It's just something I do (and for some reason a lot of people in my area do, maybe it's just a local thing?).

Back to the Tithe issue. Here are my thoughts

1. Deck thinning is always good. Thinning out 2 lands the majority of the time can't be overlooked (don't forget the fetchland trick, so you have one less land for Tithe).
2. Tithe gets you one card closer to threshold, which can be very important.
3. Tithe can be put on a stick. This will likely almost never happen, but it did to me once on Saturday. I cast a Scepter with Tithe as the only card I could put on a stick, in hopes of making them use a Force of Will if they had it. They didn't. I thought about it, and decided the best option would be putting Tithe on a stick. Being reasonably sure they would not Force it, I was then free to cast my Blastoderm. I'm still not sure if I made the right play there, but it worked out well.
4. Most importantly- It's mana fixing is amazing (I find it surprising that the top two both were Tithe users, although I doubt this was any real reason we got to the top two). This deck really can be mana hungry with the Stick. Plus, a turn 3 (with Werebear) or 4 Blastoderm can turn the game in your favor.

After much consideration and playtesting, I decided my Tithe build was superior to my non-Tithe build.

On to your third question, Bongo.
I agree, there's really not much better than a first turn Tiaga -> Kird Ape (well, except maybe a turn 2 Scepter with Fire//Ice). I like Kird Ape, but once again I am left at a dillema at what to cut. I really don't think the deck can cut any of it's critter removal as I have found myself many times wishing for more or not having anything to put on a stick. Stick or lands should not be removed from the deck. That leaves us with creatures or Tithe. If you run Tithe and feel you must squeeze a 4th Kird Ape in, you could do something like I did (-2 Tithe, +1 Kird Ape), I don't think it'll ruin the deck if you do (although I still suggest Tithes in the deck). That leaves us with only creatures to cut. Kird Ape is great, but overall (especially after facing the new meta I did Saturday) I value Nimble Mongoose more. I don't see any other creature in the deck I would seriously consider cutting for Ape. The argument that the early damage is hugely important is indeed valid, but I have seen so many Factories, Aquamoebas, Wild Mongrels, Lightning Bolts, Swords, etc., that it makes me value Ape just a bit less than the other creatures.


Now for aventisfar's questions.
I do have 4 of each dual I used in the deck, but throughout my deckbuilding I kept increasing the fetchland count. This was mainly to increase the speed at which I got to threshold. I also noticed that as my deck progressed from four to eight fetchlands that I was reaching threshold a full turn earlier than I would have with the duals in the fetchland's spots (I calculated this by putting slips of paper in the fetchands that used to be duals. This let me know that if I ran only four fetch, that particular card wouldn't have added to my threshold count. Not a perfect system, but it did it's job). Also, the mana fixing cannot be overlooked, especially as you probably should be running 1x Trop Island as Ice can get you out of some sticky situations... at least for a turn. And there's always the deck thinning.

Hopefully I answered your question about Apes vs. Mongoose. Like I said, I prefer Mongoose, but neiter is wrong. Maybe you'll like Mongoose better when you get to threshold earlier with more fetchlands.

As for the question about if you should wait for Fire//Ice when you have a stick and Magma Jet the answer is NO! Jet is really good on a stick. Admittedly not as good as Fire//Ice, but it can be pseudo-draw, allowing you not not draw unneeded cards (usually lands when you have enough, or small creatures when they have big blockers), and the two damage is very good, of course. 99% of the time you should not wait for the Fire//Ice, IMHO (if they are playing Angel Stompy and they have a Morph and will have 4 mana the next turn, you obviously want to burn it off right away, not wait around... :()

As for my sideboard choices, I really don't remember much of the day, I was feeling so sick and tired, and my notes were usually taken from what I could remember after the match. Well, my SB is straightforeward, except for the Chants. I really am still sometimes unsure of when to SB them in, as they are the only cards in the deck I have previously never used (well, I used them once before in my SDZ SB). By the way, they were mainly meant for Solidarity, which I heard was played by quite a few people in the area where the tournament was (Syracuse).

Pretty much whenever I saw my opponent using lots of blue, I SBed REBs in. Whenever they used a few Artifacts, Artifact Mutations came in (please, please remember they are great against Landstill's Nevvy's Disk and Crucible of Worlds), whenever they used lots of enchantments, I SBed Ray of Revelation in (they were meant mainly for Survival decks or possibly Enchantress, but I didn't end up facing either).

Well, I hope I answered your questions to at least some degree.

Edit: Just as a note for everyone, the tournament was at Altered States in Syracuse, New York.
Edit2: Another note to everyone, the deck went undefeated until top two.

[aventisfar]

thanx for answering vegeta.

SB-in options are obvious, but SB-OUT is not so easy and that was what I was asking for. Because it's easy to take out swords against solidarity. But against landstill or survival? You should keep all anti-creatures in the MD. But what do you SB-out? creatures? burn?

[vegeta13613]

Well, siding out is extremely difficult for me, especially with this deck, where all cards are really important. If I remember correctly with Landstill I took out Swords (their creatures are generally able to be killed by the other burn spells, and they don't have that many creatures in general. I know that Swords make the Crucible lock a bit less effective, but Artifact Mutation, with proper timing, is a great answer to Crucible) and Kird Apes (they can block Apes with Factories, then pump factories to 3/3s). I thought about taking out all the one-drop creatures, but untargetability is good. As for Survival, I'm really not quite as sure, as I didn't actually have to SB out for a Survival deck. Are there any cards that aren't useful against Survival decks in general? All burn has to stay, as you need to kill off their mana producers, and none of the creatures aren't useful. Depending on the exact build of the deck (if I needed untargetability or not), I would likely cut some of the one-drop critters. I have to say that siding out has always been very difficult to me, and I always question my own decisons. I should probably spend more of my playtesting with sideboards to make it easier for me when I have to board out during tournaments.

Edit:
Please, on the subject of siding out, don't necessarily go by what I did/ my opinion. I'll be the first one to admit this is likely my weak point.

[Ophidian]

Hey guys, I've never played with or against this deck.. but I was wondering, (and yes this gonna sound mad ghetto) what about fires of yavimaya? It would provide a good tempo boost, has outstanding synergy with Blastoderm, and to some extent FTK. Plus, the ability to change some combat math with the sacrifice could come in handy.. just a suggestion...maybe a sideboard option for the mirror... like i said, just somethin corny to consider

[scrumdogg]

The major problem is that it is a 2 color 3cc drop that will be replacing what? Fires is a good card, in a deck designed to abuse it. This is probably not that deck. Vegeta tends to deprecate his sideboarding, but he always does a precise job of it, and it doesn't seem to bite him in the ass.... So, I will pay attention to what he thinks on the matter (and hopefully learn more of how he thinks (because he never actually speaks in person, the first tournament I met him, I thought he was mute. I was thinking, 'cool, a mute Magic player...hmmmm...') so that I can beat him more often (only about 50/50 with him....maybe less....).

[NoGameShow]

I have a question about the sideboarding and the number of copies of things in the board. Do you find the fours of's really neccesary or is it merely a comfort thing. I know that multiples are good but it just seems to me dropping the four of's to three of's could free up some sideboard slots for other useful things like more stuff for the stick. Just my curiosity.

[SpikeyMikey]

@NoGameShow

I think the problem with that is that SDZ has no draw/dig, unless you put something like Jet or Fire/Ice on a stick(so no draw to speak of). In this environment, anything you're boarding in, you're going to want to see early. This isn't like old Fires(as long as we're on the subject) where you can board in late game cards like Rith or Obliterate. If you're facing an early Crucible/Waste lock(the only really scary kind), you need that Artifact Mutation *now*, not in 8 turns when you draw it. In fact, I think a large part of what keeps the board cards at 4 ofs, instead of trying to splice similar things to allow for easier post-board drawing, is the fact that like Vegeta said, boarding can be incredibly difficult. Some decks have narrow cards that are easy to remove in certain matchups. SDZ has very few of those cards in most matchups.

As Avent pointed out, it's easy to know to board out StP against Solidarity, but what do you board out to fit in 4 Ray of Revelation and 3 Chants against ATS? What card is bad in that matchup. Moreover, what makes it really difficult, what card is bad in that matchup and allows you to board something in of a similar cost, so as not to completely abandon your mana curve? That's the real kicker, because as is, the deck is a model of efficiency. If you cut out 7 1cc spells to incorporate those 7 cards(both are 2cc cards for all intents and purposes, as Chant is most useful on a stick where it's going to cost 2 or 2W every turn), suddenly you're going to find yourself light on 1 drops, and you're going to be off-kilter the whole game because your curve didn't work right.

I could be wrong, because it's been a long time since I've actually played with the deck, but in the late night absence of any of the decks current champions, I thought I'd answer the question to the best of my knowledge. I know that was a problem for me back in the day. Cost is so unbelievably important in this deck.

[aventisfar]

@Ophidian:

Remember also that 8 creatures in this deck can't be target of effects or abilities.

@vegeta13613:

If mishra's are such a problem for you, why don't you play incinerate? I think it's a very good reason to change.
I'll tell you more... Against landstill magma jet is a better sb-out option than stp, since swords allows you to kill all his manlands and to break the crucible lock, and therefore his mana base.

[vegeta13613]

First of all, Spikey got it 100% on the head about the sideboard. You're not playing a deck with any type of real draw (Jet is close, and Ice is great on a Stick, of course), so you really need 4-ofs in the SB so that you actually see that card when you need it.


@aventisfar

Thoughts on Magma Jet vs. Incinerate when playing against Landstill:
1. My record, in tournaments, against Landstill is 2-1, 2-1, 2-0 and slightly better in playtesting *since I have been playing with my current sideboard,* so I am not so sure this deck should be weakened against many matchups (I feel Jet is a better card the majority of the time) just to give it a slightly better chance vs. Landstill
2. Jet is pretty much the only dig you'll have to get you to the really important cards vs. Landstill (Artifact Mutation or REB, which is of course amazing if you have a Stick)
3. You can respond to the Factory's self-pump (or a Factory pumping another when one is attacking) by burning it off with Jet, so Magma Jet really is pretty useful against Landstill
4. Jet still hits Conclaves just fine

As for StP breaking his Crucible lock...
1. You have 4 Artifact Mutations, they generally have 2 Crucibles. With proper timing (play something like stick, THEN go for Mutation on the same turn, hopefully it won't be countered), you should be able to break the lock without StP.
2. How does one removed manland break the lock? You have to remember that they have a lot more manlands than you have StPs, plus they have counter, so I don't think you'll be breaking it this way (although StPing a manland will slow them down a bit if it resolves).


@SpikeyMikey

Like I said before, SBing out vs. a Survival deck will be extremely difficult (well, it will be for me anyways). Also like I said before, it depends on their deck. If they're running walls, multiple Baloths, Ascetics (to some degree), etc., the value of the one-drop critters suddenly drops. I think I would rather abandon my one-drop creatures than keep semi-useless cards in the deck. Don't forget you still have eight 1cc creature kill cards you'll likely want to use around turn one anyways to get rid of all their mana critters. If they are playing more heavy creature kill, I suppose you could get rid of Apes and Werebears, but I really don't like dropping the mana acceleration.


Well, those are my opinions. I'd love to hear thoughts from the rest of you.

Oh, and thanks for the enocouragement scrumdogg. You've been quite a bit of help. If it wan't for you, I would have been satisfied with just placing well at the local tournaments. Your consistant stomping me at Norwood the first few times I played you (and somping everyone at the tournament for that matter) is what led me want to be a better player.

[Bongo]

I really am still sometimes unsure of when to SB them in, as they are the only cards in the deck I have previously never used (well, I used them once before in my SDZ SB). By the way, they were mainly meant for Solidarity, which I heard was played by quite a few people in the area where the tournament was (Syracuse).
Other than their main use to stop Solidarity, Chants are also good for jedi mind tricks.

Side them in for game 2 and then side them out again if there is a game 3. This will leave your opponent unsure if he has to prepare for the Chant lock in the decisive game. If you really like to take big risks, you could also side out Scepter if you're suspecting opposing artifact removal from the other side of the table.

This would free up valuable sideboard space for you and leave your opponent with dead cards. However, I recommend such high-risk, high-reward gambles only if you're a really good player.

[vegeta13613]

It's interesting that you're talking about such sideboarding tech.
In one of my rounds against a Landstill deck I did something similar.

Here's the correct explanation of what I did.
I saw the deck I was facing using Disenchants when I was scoping out the compeition a few minutes before. When I was SBing for round two, I briefly flashed my Sticks to my opponent as I put them in the sideboard (I also had four Kird Apes and 4 StP in the pile, below the Sticks). I took 4 Mutations and 3 REBs from the SB. Then I said something like "Can't forget those against Landstill" to myself under my breath and took my Sticks back from the SB and flashed my opponent the one REB I brought in from my SB with the stick (thew didn't see the sticks go back in the main deck with the one REB).

This made my opponent think I was siding out my Sticks when I was not, so hopefully he would not SB in his artifact hate. Is this more effective than just simply siding them out if you know your opponent has SB artifact hate? I'm not sure, but I do know that a stick can often times win you the game.

I'm not sure if this was for nothing (don't know if he saw both flashes for sure), but I don't remember seeing a Disentchant that round, so who knows.

As it seemed to work, I wanted to keep it under my hat for local tournaments, where scoping out the competition is much easier, but I guess I'm not exactly the first person to think of this kind of tech.

[MoxSlaver]

Hmmm.... Good info and advice for SBing, unfortunately I don't believe I can add much to it. But I do have a question to pose. I recently played a 1.5 variant of the Rock from extended. Two things of note played out for me. One, is what to do about Cabal Therapy, and two, is how do you recover and work around a recurring Kokusho out side of hoping your next top deck is a StP? This deck took me apart, game after game principally because of Cabal Therapy. Any suggestions about this kind of match up would be greatly appreciated.

[SpikeyMikey]

I would expect Deed and Naturalize combined with Spiritmonger to actually be the biggest problems. Duress and Therapy just don't see much play right now in 1.5, and so very few decks are equipped to deal with them. The only real way to deal with targeted discard like that is to make your deck more redundant, but doing so makes it less flexible, and thus less able to compete with non-black decks in the format.

To be honest, that's why I was pushing for people to start playing B/G Void a while back, because with the format the way it is, mana denial and hand destruction are both untapped resources, and with deck construction the way it is in 1.5 right now, both are POWERFUL untapped resources. Of course, the problem with black is that once it starts to gain popularity, deck construction will work around it, and black is a very narrow and difficult to use color when people are expecting it.

[Bongo]

With 20 lands, I don't think Tithe is necessary. I found myself wishing it was a creature or burn every single time I drew it.
Right now, I'm running 21 lands and 4 Werebears instead of three, so the need for Tithe diminished even more.

Tithe is without doubt a very good card and an essential piece for any white based strategy like Angel Stompy. In this deck however, I feel Tithe should make room for more threats and consistency.

Thing is, you can't afford to keep back lands in order to get two lands from Tithe. If you cast Tithe only for one land, there won't be any card advantage. Card advantage gets important in the late game, and in the lategame you don't want land, you want threats. Those are best drawn via Ice or Jet, preferrably on a stick.
Additionally, in the first turns (when Tithes impact is the biggest) I'm busy casting threats and removing the opponents'.
Tithe is also a lousy topdeck.


4. Most importantly- It's mana fixing is amazing (I find it surprising that the top two both were Tithe users, although I doubt this was any real reason we got to the top two).


This is the most consistant deck I have ever played. First of all, I did not mulligan once the entire day.

Even without Tithe, the deck has been pretty consistent in my experience. Even aventis wrote this:


Tithe wasn't very useful. Even though I only played 3 fetchlands I had no problems getting the mana colours I needed (except blastoderm, every spell needs one only coloured mana). And the deck is fast, it works all right with olny 2 lands. I SB it out in every match and had no problem.


That would be my opinion about Tithe. I hope I didn't sound too harsh, but I think unless there exists a specific metagame reason, Tithe shouldn't be automatically included in SDZ.

[SpikeyMikey]

Eh, late game I'd rather draw a Tithe than a land. At least Tithe will clear 2-3 cards out of your library. Tithe is never worse than a fetch, and often better. That's why I include it.

[Bongo]

In the late game, I'd rather draw a burn spell or a threat than Tithe.

The point I want to get through is: Tithe is good, but is not the right fit in this deck.
Because the fetches already perform deckthinning, color smoothing and reaching Threshold, Tithe's value diminishes here (unlike say Angel Stompy, where there are no fetches and Tithe has synergy with Chrome Mox). The impact of Tithe in SDZ is just too low.

And about Tithe never being worse than a fetch: Tithe costs W, and can be countered or discarded. Decks running Quirion Ranger can even negate you the second land.

-Bongo

[NeoMike]

On the point of Tithe:

I have recently been playtesting vegeta13613 list, with the small modification of ...
-2 Tithe
+2 Naturalize
This improves all Survival Match-ups and the Belcher match-up. But right now it is just up for disscusion in place of Tithe. Idea's?

[vegeta13613]

I like the idea, but I am just wondering how much it helps the deck. It depends on the player, but I find that often you won't see a Survival drop without your opponent having mana to back it up so that they can grab a Witness. As for 'Belcher, Naturalize is useful too, but not really a game winner by any means either. Either way you are slowing down their deck,which is great. Sadly, Naturalize can be a dead card, but not all that often. I think you have a great idea, and I might try it also. I just really, really hate not being able to drop Blastoderm turn 4 as often or not having that extra mana for burn and Scepter or playing creatures and using Scepter. Maybe I'll try cutting a Mongoose for a 'bear and try -2 Tithe, +2 Naturalize.

[NeoMike]

Actually, I have never needed Tithe for a turn 4 Blastoderm/Scepter+spell, I tend to always have the mana I need either consistant land drops or Turn 2 Werebear. But I think that Naturalize, like in Madness, has a spot here.

[scrumdogg]

At the heart, this a 3 color deck that wants all three colors. Can it run off a low land count? Yes. Do fetches help smooth that & build threshold? Yes. I would submit, however, that they have a dangerous side to them as well. I have come to the conclusion recently that in terms of counting for a real actual mana, fetches should only count .5 toward a real land. It hurts to be down in the land count, especially if your opponent can take advantage of that. Fetches also have the disadvantage of being Stifleable (which has lost me games...sadly) and not functioning under Blood Moon (which is seeing a bit more play). The other concern is what effect Tithe has on your deck, in terms of thinning. I hope the following comparison is accurate & comprehensible:

Early game:
Tithe costs W and gets either 1 or 2 land (preferably 2, even if you have to wait until Turn 3 or so, which is fine because you DO want to casting early threats. On the threat theme (thay that five times fatht) Tithe is the card which allows you to be double casting on Turn 3 or 4 or dropping that Blastoderm with regularity.) You have thinned your deck of 2-3 non threat cards and 1-2 land, have gotten 1-2 land.

Fetchland costs your land drop and 1 life to get a land of your choice. Cannot be countered, can be Stifled (which sucks). Can get basic lands from deck, most often gets the dual to fill in the missing elements of your mana base. You have thinned your deck of 2 non-threat cards and 2 land, have gotten 1 land.

MidGame:
See above except that you are under much less pressure to cast Tithe quickly. You can bait a counter with Tithe, or bluff a threat card in hand (I find people with an actual spell bluff better than most people trying that ploy with a land in hand...) You should still be thinning as many land as you play instead of half the land you will get from a fetch activation & thinning the spell out of the deck besides. Even if you only get one land - each option will thin 2 non-threat cards from your deck at the cost of either W or 1 life.

Late game:
If you have excess land, why not hold them in hand? Their bluff potential, ability to make evaluating your mana counts for subsequent turns more difficult, and they turn Tithe into a card which generates the 3 non-threat, 2 land for W option (which, imho, is superior to fetching late game).

The last point I would make about Tithe is that if your opponent is countering Tithe, either they have you pretty well locked up or they have no clue what your deck is about to lay upon them. :cool:

[MoxSlaver]

@Spikey

Thanks for your thoughts. Interestingly enough Spiritmonger only stayed in play for a short bit. I was fortunate to have had a StP handy everytime he was cast. While Kokusho seemed to hit and stay, especially with Recurring nightmare on the board. My enchantment removal for some reason stayed buried in my deck. As for Deed, it was an annoyance at most. Once I realized he was playing Deed, I would keep a creature or two back in my hand, reducing Deed's overall effectiveness. I have no idea if he had Naturalizes as he never played one.

As for Tithe, I'm just not sure of it either way. I still need to play it some more before adding to this discussion, though I'm leaning more towards what Scrum is saying.

[aventisfar]

Once more, I played SDZ in my shop's tournament. We were about 22-24 and we played 5 rounds. Things went a little bit better for me this time, I finished 5th and won a couple of boosters. I only lost against affinity and tied against a strange R/U landstill who finally was 4th. I was going to win him on the next turn but time was up. With those 3 points I'd have finished 2nd or even 1st.

Conclusions (II):

- This deck deserves 4 Kird ape, they're much better than mongooses on the early turns. My favorite start is taiga-kird ape, and then a scepter. I only played 2 mongooses and I'm not going to play more definitely.
- I played magma jet for incinerate and, yes, they're better. On 90% of times I used scrying to put cards on the bottom of my library. I remember a couple of times I needed a land to play blastoderm and magma jet helped. It also helped me a lot to get basic lands with a blood moon in play (I could finally won).
- I did not play tithe and NO PROBLEM. I played naturalize and it was never a dead card in hand, sometimes not very useful and sometimes decisive.

I'm close to my final built, I only have to get 2 fetchlands more and artifact mutations.

My creatures:
4 Goblin legionnaire
4 Kird ape
2 Nimble mongoose
4 Blastoderm
1 Isamaru, hound of Konda
3 werebear

[vegeta13613]

Okay, from my testing the whole Tithe vs. Naturalize is still up in the air. With Scepter I find myself really wanting not to miss a land drop until turn 5-6, which is often times difficult without Tithe (there are more reasons to play Tithe, look on the past dozen posts or so, you'll see a few). Still, having a Naturalize is almost always handy. It seems that it's really up to you. The choice seems to be on if you want to set your opponent back (Naturalize), or speed your deck up (Tithe), as that's generally how it has worked in my testing. I'm going to stick with Tithe until my testing points me in the other direction or I hear a lot more arguments for Naturalize that I agree with.

I don't really agree on your argument on Ape vs. Mongoose, as there's a big difference between a 3/3 untargetable and a 2/3. I don't think the one or two extra damage you'll deal early on with Ape (it will likely be burned off/ Swordsed, or they'll have a blocker with 3+ toughness within the first few turns) is better than what Mongoose will quickly become. Late[r] game I have found Ape is usually close to a dead card while Mongoose is usually still very useful.

What I really don't understand is "1 Isamaru, hound of Konda." Why? I really think a Mongoose or even an Ape would be a better choice (my vote is obviously for Mongoose). I realize one card, in this case, won't really make or break a deck, but this just seems like a strange call. If you're against Mongoose, why not Ape? Do you really find it hard to get Ape out and a 2/3 by turn 2 (the earliest turn you would be attacking with it)? There is a huge difference between a 2/2 and a 3/3 untargetable (or even between a 2/2 and a 2/3 for that matter), especially with all the Factories and Swords/ burn I have seen around lately.

Edit: Like I said in an earlier post (assuming you still are running few fetchlands), perhaps the reason you are not liking Mongoose is that without 8 fetch it is taking you considerably longer to reach threshold than it would with 8. Mongoose has been a great card for me, and would not be one of the first cards I cut by any means.

[aventisfar]

@Vegeta:

First of all, yes, I played a few fetchlands: four. I'd like to get 2 more because I think 6 is enough, like most of the builts posted in this thread. Maybe if I had 8 I would try them, but I'm not very sure because I don't think the more fetchlands you play, the earlier you get threshold since you also need to play spells to reach it. Probably there's a linear relationship on first three turns but I'm not sure since then. On the other hand, is it true that you have more possibilities to draw them on first turns. But that's not the point...


Naturalize is still up in the air. With Scepter I find myself really wanting not to miss a land drop until turn 5-6, which is often times difficult without Tithe (there are more reasons to play Tithe, look on the past dozen posts or so, you'll see a few). Still, having a Naturalize is almost always handy. It seems that it's really up to you. The choice seems to be on if you want to set your opponent back (Naturalize), or speed your deck up (Tithe), as that's generally how it has worked in my testing. I'm going to stick with Tithe until my testing points me in the other direction or I hear a lot more arguments for Naturalize that I agree with.
Tithe is great, I know, but it's just a tool. Naturalize is decisive defense. On current meta, sometimes if you don't play naturalize you simply lose.
You want to speed up your deck? Great, then play 4 tithe. With 2 copies means that most of the times you are going to draw it on the middle game, or you're simply not going to draw it. And tithe on middle game is not bad, but is probably the last thing you'd like to draw.

I don't really agree on your argument on Ape vs. Mongoose, as there's a big difference between a 3/3 untargetable and a 2/3.
There's also a big difference between a 1/1 untargeteable and a 2/3. And that's what mongoose is most of the time.

I don't think the one or two extra damage you'll deal early on with Ape (it will likely be burned off/ Swordsed, or they'll have a blocker with 3+ toughness within the first few turns) is better than what Mongoose will quickly become.
Now kird apes are bad? Apes can beat almost every creature your opponent could play on the first 3 turns. And if you use burn against his creatures/mishra's it could deal easily 4-6 damage. Not every deck plays swords, and I have to say that in my experience apes are not often sworded on first turns. And if they're early sworded? Okay, play legionnaires on next turn. A 1/1 that could be stopped by every single creature you're opponent play is not useful. You're spending 2/3-damaging burning spells tu deal 1 single damage every attack. The earlier you could reach threshold is on 4th turn (unless you play against discard or unless you play a fetchland every single turn and 4 bolts, and on 4th turn you're opponent will easily have a lot of defense even against a 3/3 (untargeteable, I don't forget it).

Late[r] game I have found Ape is usually close to a dead card while Mongoose is usually still very useful.
That is the question, what do you want to draw first and what do you want to draw after. If I had to choose something for first turns, I will choose apes, that's why I play four, because I want to draw them in every single start. And I play 2 mongooses because I only need to draw them on middle game.

What I really don't understand is "1 Isamaru, hound of Konda." Why? I really think a Mongoose or even an Ape would be a better choice (my vote is obviously for Mongoose). I realize one card, in this case, won't really make or break a deck, but this just seems like a strange call. If you're against Mongoose, why not Ape? Do you really find it hard to get Ape out and a 2/3 by turn 2 (the earliest turn you would be attacking with it)? There is a huge difference between a 2/2 and a 3/3 untargetable (or even between a 2/2 and a 2/3 for that matter), especially with all the Factories and Swords/ burn I have seen around lately.
First of all, I' can't play 5 kird apes :p .
The reason is the same, I want to start with a strong creature. Some builts in this thread played with lions and no one thought it was ridiculous. And for one single copy, I prefer isamaru to lions. But lions might be a very bad creature for you...

[MoxSlaver]

Here's what I'm learning about Zoo.

1. Fetchlands are necessary. At least 6 of them. Outside of building threshold they also speed up the process of playing your creatures and burn spells. They add a tremendous amount of consistency to Zoo by increasing a players options with regards to what threats he can drop and when. This helps by putting your opponent into a guessing game as to what's coming next.

2. Duals are necessary, though I'm not sold only playing a full allotment of duals. I'm still leaning toward running more basics and just a few duals. Wastelands and other land destruction can spell the end to this deck, and LD is something that I'm beginning to see more of.

3. As for Kird Ape and Nimble Mongoose. I believe that running 4 of both is important. Kird has the obvious advantage in the first few turns, but against creature based decks like WW, goblins, and madness. I want to be dropping as many creatures as possible as quickly as I can to keep pace with them. Nimble Mongoose is a great chump blocker in the early turns against these decks. Against control and agro-control based decks these creatures are a help in baiting out your opponent.

4. Zoo has the ability to be played several different ways depending upon who and what your playing. While reaching threshold as quickly as possible is key to winning with this deck, it isn't an absolute. A 3rd turn Blastoderm and hitting your opponent in the head with several burn spells in the opening turns can actually decide the game before threshold is ever reached. Although this is only one possible way to play the deck. You can play the deck like a weenie deck and race your opponent or you can slow down to bluff and bait your opponent to making plays that will allow you to take full advantage of threshold when you reach it. And there are options that fall inbetween these two ideas. The versatility of this deck amazes me in that it has the potential to beat just about every deck out there, as long as you play smart.

5. I still feel that Nantuko Monastary provides an additional advantage. I am currently running 2 of them, and my opponents are really not liking the fact that when I'm almost at threshold or at threshold I'm dropping Monastary and foiling their game plan and forcing them to change how their playing to deal with the new threat. I also believe that there has to be a way to fit wastelands into the deck to help furhter disrupt your opponents game plan. But I, like everyone else posting on this thread, haven't figured out the best way to do that and still maintain a consistent mana base. Though I am thinking about the possibility of running a small number of fetches to see if I can fit in 2 or 3 Crucibles along with 2 Monastaries and 2 Wastelands. I don't know if this will work or if it will break the decks synergy on land drops and threshold.

All in all, I really do like Zoo and believe that in time along with everyone's work here on this thread this deck will become a 'deck to beat' soon. There's just so much that is possible with this deck even though it has a really tight build and is sometimes difficult to see where it can be tweaked. Anyways these are my opinions from the games that I've been playing, and I'm now at a place with my deck that I feel comfortable in taking it into a tourney now so I should hopefully start giving everyone info about how well it is doing here in TX.

[aventisfar]

1. Fetchlands are necessary

I also believe that there has to be a way to fit wastelands into the deck to help furhter disrupt your opponents game plan. But I, like everyone else posting on this thread, haven't figured out the best way to do that and still maintain a consistent mana base.
Not at all, kenderleech posted this mana base, remember:

4 Tithe
4 Land Grant

4 Savannah
4 Plateau
4 Tiaga
4 Wasteland
I know, we've already discussed it (2 slots more, no fetch-pain, hand showing, wastelands... you know). I think I'm going to test this mana base next time, I'm not sure is better than most of the builts in this thread, but probably is the best when you only own 4 fetchlands :) . Don't know... let's try.

Monastery is also a nice choice for those "polemic" 2 slots. I'll try them...

[SpikeyMikey]

Biggest problem with that mana base? No basics. Besides, Kenderleech is playing Three Deuce, which is a tad bit different from SDZ. You could fit the Wastes into the deck, I'm just not certain that it's a good idea to spread the mana base that thin. The deck really wants it's colored mana, and it's very mana hungry. People complain about spending a single mana on Tithe, and you want to turn 1/5 of the lands in the deck into Wastelands? I just don't think it's a good idea...

[Kenderleech]

If you compare the spells I run to the spells that are in SDZ, youll see I have no requirement for GG anywhere.... and honestly, no requirement for 3 mana, save to activate either a scroll or a miner, if Im playingthose that week... in SDZ, you Can run my manabase... but its not the best choice.

[MoxSlaver]

I have to agree with Spikey about the lack of basics. This is the land base I'm running.

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heaths
2 Nantuko Monastaries
4 Forests
3 Mountians
3 Plains
1 Plateau (This being the only dual land I currently own)
1 Tranquil Thicket (I have this in my 20th slot only for cyclying purposes)

The mana base that I really want to run is as follows after I acquire the remaining dual lands:

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heaths
2 Nantuko Monastaries
2 Plateau's
2 Savannah's
2 Tiaga's
2 Forests
2 Mountains
2 Plains

This way you have more than 1 basic to fetch if necessary to work around a Wasteland/Crucible lock, and with the Monastaries in the deck having 2 each of the basics makes using them easier and more consistent. I've been toying with the idea of putting 2 Wastelands in the sideboard to side the Monastaries out with in certian matchups but I haven't tried this yet, it's just something that I've been working out on paper and it looks like a decent and plausible idea.

Edited in:
Also; with regards to Land Grant. While I personally like that card and have toyed with the idea of using, the problem I run into is this. If I have to show my opponent my hand, I give up the ability to bait his counter and removal spells. Baiting and bluffing is a key part to playing Zoo properly in my opinion as it has no way pre-board to handle a counter or removal heavy opponent.

[vegeta13613]

What does everyone think about Pithing Needle for the SB (for a discussion of the card, go here (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2628).)
It obviously has many uses, as discussed in the thread. Is it worth sideboard slots? 'Belcher is almost an auto-loss for our deck, even after sideboarding it's difficult. This card pretty much shuts the deck down, plus helps in many matchups (again, see the thread). What does everyone think? Could it, perhaps, replace Ray of Revelation? It isn't as good as Ray against Survival decks and Enchantress, but it has much more versatility than Ray.

[NeoMike]

To put it plainly, I think that Pithing Needle should be in everydeck's sideboard. Even ATS has its own use for it (not like Landstill is an easy match-up for it). And even the almight SDZ should be running this in board. But as a side note, my friend mentioned to me the following: "Do you think it will get banned?" I plainly said "no" with no others thoughts... but it is possible. I mean think about all that it shuts down(there is already a list, though not very thought out, in the thread linked by vegeta). So that is just something I figured we could disscuss, though it might ought to be routed to the Pithing Needle thread.

[drizzt]

hi all
I've been following this thread for a while now and I've also been playing SDZ here in Belgium. Our metagame is filled with Landstill, Survival and Madness, so keep that in mind for my sideboard. And I want to apologise if my English sucks, because I don't live in an English speaking country

Anyway here is my current build:

lands (20)
4*Wooded Foothills
2*Windswepth Heath
4*Taiga
4*Savannah
3*Plateau
1*Forrest
1*Mountain
1*Plains

creatures (18)
4*Nimble Mongoose
2*Kird Ape
4*Werebear
4*Goblin Legionnaire
4*Blastoderm

other spells (22)
4*Isochron Scepter
4*Swords to Plowshares
4*Fire/ice
4*Lightning Bolt
2*Magma Jet
2*Tithe
2*Naturalize

sideboard (15)
2*Naturalize
4*Flametongue Kavu
3*Tormod's Crypt
3*Red Elemental Blast
3*Artifact Mutation

I play Blastoderm over Troll because Blastoderm is a much more effective beater. While in the control match up Troll might me stronger, I always need to keep mana open for regeneration. And also because a turn 2 werebear accelerates nicely into a turn 3 Blastoderm.

Lately I've been thinking about sideboarding seedtime. Does anyone have any experience with this? because scepter + seedtime almost looks like an autowin against control.

I'm not a big fan about the Orim's Chant thingie. While it is true that scepterchant might be game versus goblins, I feel that nowadays (at least in my metagame) most decks have adapted to Orim's Chant; so that it becomes quite obsolete. Plus it is very mana intensive.

I've also been considering to change the Kird Apes with Icatian Javelineers. So you might want to comment on that too. :)

btw I feel that Pithing Needle is an auto-include for SDZ's sideboard.

btw2: thx for this interesting thread and for the comment you might give on my post.

[Nancy Boy]

I playtestet the deck for a very very long time in all it's variations. And I just don't understand why everybody around plays Scepter. It's just a horrible choice for this deck, you can't protect it and it makes disadvantage. I absolutely prefer the Cursed Scroll, it does well in this deck. My list looks like that:

4 Kird Ape/ Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Nimble Mongoose/ Mogg Fanatic
4 Blastoderm

4 StoP
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning (better than Magma Jet and F/I, no need to be Instant since we play no crappy Scepter)
4 Incinerate

3 Cursed Scroll

4 Taiga
4 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

SB:
4 Naturalize
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 ReB
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Artifact Mutation

I didn't include the Needle yet, I think I would..

- 2 Mutation
- 1 Seal

+ 3 Needle

[MoxSlaver]

I know that it's been a long time since anyone added to this thread so I'm going to in the hopes that we can continue this thread. Zoo is still a really good deck and I still play it. While I still haven't been able to put my deck through a lot of tournament play, I still have been testing it and playing against a lot of really good decks out there.

Here are some new things that I'm figuring out about Zoo.

4 Wastelands are possible, I just haven't figured out how to fit Crucible in. I have finally took out the Nantuko's, while they are really good in certain match ups. I can't say that they deserve a pernament place in my deck. Though I keep it handy to add to my side if need be. Currently my Mana base looks like this.

4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Tiaga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
4 Wasteland
1 each of basics (forest, plains, mountain)

This has proved stable enough in the games and enviroments that I have played it in. I do find though that I'm not having to run the wastelands as much as I thought I would, but having them there does seem to help the deck drive towards threshold a little quicker.

Another thing that I've been toying with is Nevinyrral's Disk as a 2 of MD.

Here's my thinking. Scepter is good in this deck, but I do see now how the deck can run without it. In a large number of games this summer I've seen scepter either countered or never come up in draw and I've still won without it. Thusly I do think that Scepter isn't a necessary component to this deck. So I've pulled them lately and have been running the Disks and Naturalizes in their place. So far, the Naturalizes have proved helpful, but the Disks have been interesting. If your prepared for it, Disk gives you a solid way to hit threshold between turns 3 and 5 depending on when you get to drop it. Outside of clearing the board, I've never popped it and not hit threshold immediately, it forces your opponent to either remove it from play or to work around the disruption. Either way it helps to get to threshold a little quicker than what I've normally been doing. So far I like having Disk MD, but I'm still playing with it and would like to hear back from everyone on their thoughts about it.

[laststepdown]

1st post-explaination for joining forum: this seems to be the only mtg forum with actual discussion, instead of bashing and flaming. anyway, on to my question:

i'm planning on running zoo for the grand prix trials. i have a decent sideboard created, but i'm worried about pox...mainly phyrexian negator/juzam/scuta/whatever they would use. this is the only deck i seem to have a problem with, other than the 1st turn aether vial, 2nd turn lackey and pyrostatic pillar(as seen in micheal riley's build, thus being my reason for wanting to side hull breach over artifact mutation). back on topic, there has to be something better than karma to hose black. thoughts/comments/help?

[scrumdogg]

There are a number of options in Green and White if you fear Black (although STP on a Stick is a fine answer to Poxy decks) :cool: You can add more creature kill out of the board - Reciprocate, Reprisal, whatever. You can add the W1 enchantment (can't remember name right now...and have to go to work) from Masques Block, whenever you are forced to discard a card, draw a card & gain 2 life. You can add Compost. It all depends upon what you expect to face, SDZoo has the adavantage of being very customizable, including the main deck creature component. Good luck in the GPTs (unless you face me) :p

[Ewokslayer]

but i'm worried about pox...mainly phyrexian negator/juzam/scuta/whatever they would use ... there has to be something better than karma to hose black. thoughts/comments/help?
Shouldn't the burn + STP + creatures take care of that matchup? I know Vial Goblin players for the most part have problems with Negator but that is because they either don't read its rule test or they forget combat damage can actually kill. Honestly, I would think that Zoo should be able to stall the game out by killing the pox/suicide creatures and letting scepter/scroll + untargetables carry the day. Though I suppose a three color manabase is every pox/suicide players dream, but holding back on breaking fetches should help in that department.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I would assume it's not Negator who's the problem, as things like Fanatic and Mongoose are insane against him. So I'll assume that Juzam and Scuta's fat asses are being troublesome.

Llanowar Knight or Reprisal? Purge? Topple? Ooooh, Waylay. It kills Juzam/Scuta and nets 3 for 1 vs. Goblins. Of course, I advocate Waylay in a lot of SBs.



Edited By SpatulaOfTheAges on 1126798307

[AnwarA101]

1st post-explaination for joining forum: this seems to be the only mtg forum with actual discussion, instead of bashing and flaming. anyway, on to my question:

i'm planning on running zoo for the grand prix trials. i have a decent sideboard created, but i'm worried about pox...mainly phyrexian negator/juzam/scuta/whatever they would use. this is the only deck i seem to have a problem with, other than the 1st turn aether vial, 2nd turn lackey and pyrostatic pillar(as seen in micheal riley's build, thus being my reason for wanting to side hull breach over artifact mutation). back on topic, there has to be something better than karma to hose black. thoughts/comments/help?
Pox can be a difficult matchup. Your less than stellar mana-base becomes an issue because they have 12 ways to destroy your lands and you basically have no draw except (Scepter + Ice). If you resolve Scepter against Pox you've most likely won the game anyway. As for things like Negator - if you don't have the burn spell to kill it off this probably means you have no red mana available which probably means your in big trouble. You can try Compost, but if that comes down late, forget about it. But the best strategy might be to try to stablize the mana-base if that is possible. I find it hard that if you can cast your spells that you will lose to mono-black builds. Though Dystopia seems like it would own you.

[dad]

When was the last time Browbeat was tested in the deck and why doesn't it have place?

[laststepdown]

browbeat was never tested by me, as it's not scepter imprintable. probably better in zoo decks running scroll.

many, many questions-i'll try and answer first with my s/b:
2 tormond's crypt
4 r.e.b.
1 hull breach (card advantage, kills pyrostatic pillar which will always be brought in vs. gobs)
2 artifact mutation
4 orim's chant
1 mother of runes
1 gaea's blessing (brainfreeze)

on to my reasoning:
negator/juzam/scuta/whatever presents a problem because if these creatures exist, they more than likely are running 4-8 LD spells (sinkhole, rain of tears) and nether spirit, sometimes with factory. granted, a StP on a stick will rule, that's a hell of a lot of life gain. i'm contemplating decreasing the number of chant's also. i only own 1 M.o.R., and would rather put in 2 blessing, in case i draw one. anyway, thanks for the help so far, and any further help is much appreciated.

[MoxSlaver]

Against creature based decks, cards like Festival or Holy Day which can be dropped under a scepter might prove useful, though I think that your best stragedy is to get chant onto a scepter. Against Mono-Black builds I'm not sure the best route to go. I've used Karma, and I've used Compost. Both are extremely effective, but I wasn't sideboarding 4 of's either so I didn't always get them when I needed. Playing against black has always been a hard match up for me, as Mono-Black decks seem to always disrupt my game plan way more than I would like. An early chant or chant on a scepter is going to slow Black way down if not give you the game as their deck runs on sorcery speed for the most part, thus you can shut down their turn. Although this wouldn't be of help in the early game, you might want to look at Mystic Enforcer as he'll take care of Juzam when you have threshold.

As for Goblins? Without mass removal, my game plan is always to get Lightning Bolt or Swords on a scepter, and then race them. Sometime it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have played goblins once when I had FTK in my side and I swapped out my Blastoderms for FTK game 2, and that game shaped up a lot better for me. While this is a sorcery, Pyroclasm would help against gobbo's and it would have the side benefit of accelerating your chances of getting theshold a turn or 2 earlier.

I like Spatula's suggestion of Reprisal, especially if you got it under a scepter on turn 2 against Juzam, but it would be effective also just to have it in hand for that matter as he's not all that likely to have another Juzam opening hand.

Hmm... I'll think some more on this though I'm not really sure what would be really effective without changing up Zoo altogether.

[laststepdown]

moxslaver-yes, black can be a bad matchup i agree. my main concern is that they have (usually) 4 nether spirits with 4 factorys, or 4 hyppies, 4 plague spitters, and 4 scuta/negator/juzam. orim's chant on a stick will definitely shut this down. although, i do have a question-can i pay the kicker when it's on a stick? will that cost 2W or 2? i didn't play during mirrodin block...as for reprisal, i prefer StP...but bolts don't take care of juzam or nether spirits, and dropping 2 cards down for their one has its ups and downs. helps threshold, gives them card advantage.

as for goblins, the only thing i really have trouble with is their sideboarded pyrostatic pillar, with aether vial, they pretty much walk around the card. i wouldnt opt for pyroclasm-you can demolish yourself if you don't have threshold.

also, any help on my s/b? i'm expecting heavy goblins, brainfreeze, and landstill. i'm thinking about dropping the mother of runes, for a 2nd gaea's blessing(all but useless if i draw the single one, in my current board, vs. brainfreeze).

anyone else's bad matchups and possible solutions?

[MoxSlaver]

@laststep - You still have to pay the kicker when orims is on the stick (or at least that's what I've been told, as I personally don't own chants, though I've played scepter chant countless times and they always paid the kicker. I use Festival and Honorable Passage in place of chant).

One idea for goblins is Nevinyrral's Disk. If you hold back on your creature drops and only lay a few chump blockers and you get a disk on or around turn 4, disk is definitely to your advantage. Once disk goes off your pretty much gauranteed threshold, and then you lay one or two mongooses or were's and that puts goblins on the run.

Against landstill - Tsabo's Web, REB, Scour (targeting N. Disk), Artifact Mutation is great against their disk as well. Hidden Gibbons can help as Nantuko Monastary can as well. Mongoose and Blastoderm will hold their own in this match as long as they aren't countered or wrathed. Use your burn and other creatures to bait their removal and counter until you can safely resolve one of these two creatures. Another card that can help here is Troll Ascetic, as that gives you one more untargetable creature. Also, don't be afraid to break their first standstill as fast as possible, preferably as soon as they drop it. Yes it gives them advantage, but it also takes away one of their stall mechanisms. Whoever controls the tempo of this match up is the one that is going to have the advantage.

Brainfreeze??? Here I'm not sure. I've never had to play against this deck so I'm not sure what I'd do in this match up. Off the top of my head, REB on scepter combined with boil would help I'm sure.

[laststepdown]

mox-hadn't even thought of nevy disk. although it does kill scepter, threshold is much desired. maybe armageddon instead? sided in with artifact mutation/hull breach(i prefer breach, netting a pillar and vial), this can kill their whole board. the ascetics would be golden, but i wouldnt know what to replace for them, and i'd have to buy them. orim's chant has worked wonders for me against brainfreeze, actually. something like this: upkeep i pass priority, they play reset, i orim's chant in response, they counter, i REB, game. not to mention the 2 gaea's blessing in case my plan fails.

r/g survival i think must be our greatest fear. with all the dual lands we're running, sundering titan just might be our worst enemy.

Welcome to The Source. Please make an effort to follow this rule (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590). Your compliance is appreciated. - Zilla

[Myrrodin]

Hey, I'm relatively new to legacy, though I have checked out most of the good decks and figured out how they work. San Diego Zoo looks fun, and is probably my favorite deck in the format ATM.

On to my question. What do you guys think of Ravnica for this deck? Lightning Helix and Watchwolf seem like great cards for Zoo, but maybe its just me.

Also, when I am playtesting this deck, I seem to run into too many occasions where I don't have threshold. Am I doing something wrong. I just seem to get to around 5 cards and the deck stalls out. The only time its been relatively easy for me to get threshold is with Scepter- Fire/Ice.

Oh yeah, for reference:

Lightning Helix - RW
Instant (U)
Lightning Helix deals 3 damage to target creature or player. You gain 3 Life.

Watchwolf - WG
Creature - ? (U)
3/3

[MoxSlaver]

@last
I'm glad to hear that Orim's pretty much wins against brainfreeze, though I'm still going to see if I can't find someone playing that deck to test it head to head and see what zoo lacks or where it's strong before I draw any definite conclusions.

When boarding in Ascetics for a control match I would probably replace 1 Kird, and 2 Werebears and maybe 1 Legionaire. That way I'm adding more threats for control to have to deal with in trade with a less consistent likelihood of dropping a turn 3 blastoderm, which isn't much of a loss considering that Ascetic can almost win by his lonesome against control given enough time.

@myrr
Zoo is by far my favorite deck, though it's not an easy one to win with all the time. As for Ravnica, Lightning Helix and Watchwolf are the only two cards that I've seen that are worth considering. Helix especially for the life gain. Burn for 3 gain 3 life. That helps tremendously when your running 6 to 8 fetches, and drawing into more than a couple of fetches can mean game is certian matchups. Once I get a play set I'll probably take out Incenerate for L. Helix and see how it does, if it works as well as I think that it is looking like it will, it will take Incenerates place. Watchwolf is the one that I'm really having to think through. A 3/3 for 2 is fantastic, and following a 1st turn Tiaga - Kird Ape play, it would be brutal in the early game. The issue is that the only card I would possibly cut for it would be Legioniare, and I'm not sure I want to do that at this point, principally Legionairre's ability to keep another beater from dying as well as it's burn ability is sometimes what sends you over the edge to win a game. Legionaire may be a 2/2 but he can hit for 4 when needed. Add to that if someone were to block blastoderm with a heavy hitter, he makes blastoderm into a 5/7 which is huge in most games given that there are just not that many decks regularly running anything bigger than a 5/5. So I'm gonna wait until I can get my hands on a play set before I say Watchwolf is worth including in the deck.

Your not doing anything wrong if you aren't hitting threshold until turn 5 or 6. That's when you should be expecting it, and playing towards hitting it. Running 6 to 8 fetches, and running Wastelands I've found gives about a half turn faster clock on threshold, but it's not by much. The thing to remember is that Zoo is Aggro/Control. Early game you want to get Kird or Mongoose out to set up a defensive wall. You can go more aggro with Kird which is definitely more desired. Turn 2 you want to drop Were or Legionaire. With Were he gives you turn 3 Blastoderm, with Legionaire, he buys you a turn or 2 to set up your board. Burn and fetches are you ticket to threshold and you shouldn't hold on to any of this, you wanna toss that stuff almost as fast as it comes into your hand. With Scepter in the mix then you only want to drop StP or F/I, or in my case Magma Jet (which is what I swapped F/I for.) This is for board control and card advantage. If you get a second stick resolved then drop burn under that.

Zoo does not want to win in the early game, it's wants to gain advantage or force a stalemate. Zoo doesn't even begin to shine until turn 4 when you drop Blastoderm. Without Blastoderm you'll hit threshold turn 5 or latest turn 6, then it's all about getting mongoose's and were's down as fast as possible to beat your opponent down. Interestingly, the only games where I've had to actually play that out like that are against control. Zoo can win most of the time (unless your facing Solidarity) against control due to pure attrition. In aggro match ups against gobbo's and madness it becomes a pure race that is winnable if zoo resolves an early StP on a stick, or draws into an even mix of creatures and burn. Post board against madness Zoo gets a lot stronger, the same is true against gobbo's but to a lesser extent. Against Survival decks, the game just gets interesting. It's still a race, but Zoo really leans towards control in these match's until it can go bozo with aggro. A lot of Zoo is getting your opponent to waste resources on percieved early threats, which helps you get to threshold faster, then you go nuts turn 4 or 5 when Blastoderm resolves or when you hit threshold.

[Ewokslayer]

Legionaire may be a 2/2 but he can hit for 4 when needed. Add to that if someone were to block blastoderm with a heavy hitter, he makes blastoderm into a 5/7 which is huge in most games given that there are just not that many decks regularly running anything bigger than a 5/5.

That doesn't work. Goblin Legionaire has to target for his ability to work and Blastoderm can't be the target of spells or abilities.

[MoxSlaver]

Oops, thanks Ewok, I totally forgot about that when I was typing that.

[laststepdown]

mox- orim's works like this against brainfreeze-they play reset, in response, i chant. they can either declare more spells, or resolve the reset and that's it for the rest of the turn, unless they FoW-then you REB it if possible. resets and high tides are what to chant for. on a stick, with REB in s/b will make it an easy matchup, and 2 gaea's blessings is perfect. if you draw one, play it, then use the second (if you draw it) to put the 1st back in. all they can do then is cap it out, and leave 3 chants and 4 REBs.

as for magma jet-on a stick, this is your engine. alone it's amazing. i've dropped 3 incinerates for this card, and have been thingking about dropping the last one for helix too. maybe a fire and ice...

sacred ground helps against...well...pox and sundering titan. worth 2 spots in side?

as far as the control match up, once again REB, also disenchant or naturalize(my mana base leans toward naturalize right now as i'm down a savannah), but i would recommend 2 of one, 1 of the other (anti meddling mage).

Please make an effort to follow this rule (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590). Your compliance is appreciated. - Zilla

[74-1123039401]

not to mention that lightning helix is INSANE on a stick...

my SB is:

orims chant x4
REB x4
pithing needle x4
t. crypt x3

do i need 8 cards to battle solidarity, or should i cut REBs?

You've been warned for this (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) before. Comply or be banned. - Zilla

[Slay]

You absolutely need 8 cards to win vs. Solidarity.

Crypts are worthless. Replace them with something good.
-Slay

[MoxSlaver]

While I personally wouldn't agree that crypts are worthless, I have to agree with Slay, you don't need them.

REB's are also a must, though I have yet to play solidarity I've noticed that my 2 hardest matchups are Blue based control type decks and deck that utilize a lot of black hand disruption.

[74-1123039401]

what should i use in crypts place?
naturalize?

You've been warned for this (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2590) before. Comply or be banned. - Zilla