[Deck] Salvager Game (Golden Grahams)

[colsmack]

I have seen this eck on TMD, and thought it was pretty cool. I'll just copy and paste Tash's post, as it is his deck.

Ok, so my local group has been playtesting for Legacy a lot recently, and one of them brought in the gamekeeper oath deck, the one that plays 4 gamekeeper, disruption, and then 2 Darksteel Colossus.

Well being the combo player I am I thought up a "better" idea. What if instead of running the Colossus's, we run the Auriok Salvagers combo with LED and pyrite spellbomb.

I worked on it for a bit and this is the list that I've come up with.

"Salvager Oath"

Tutor/Draw
2 Nights Whisper
4 Living Wish
4 Tainted Pact

Disruption
3 Chainers Edict
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Creatures
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Combo
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Pyrite Spellbomb

Other
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Chromatic Sphere

Land
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Forest
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah

Sideboard: Not finished yet, but it will include
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvager
1 Kumano, Master Yamibushi
2 Darksteel Colossus

Card Choices:
Tainted Pact: This was originally a Spoils of the Vault, but I kept killing myself with it. TP seems really good just because you can start digging for stuff and even if you hit the same card twice, well you just cleared out some crap so you can get to your combo quicker.

Living Wish: In creature based combo this card is sort of a DUH. It reads "Gamekeeper #4-7" as well as "Salvager #3-6"

Darksteel Colossus: It starts the matchup in the sideboard for a reason. Mostly because I like the Salvagers combo much better, but it's there so if someone sides in all their graveyard hate, you can just pull those in game 2 and say: "Oh, you just cast tormonds crypt. Damn." And flip over Colossus. Seems pretty good.

So there's my deck idea. Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated. But if you want to flame, please do more than just say "Wow, you're a retard." Give me a thought out reason on why I'm wrong in playing this deck.

This is his tournemtn report from first place at the GPT in Indy

On Oct. 8 I, for the first time ever, went to a local store for Friday Night Magic. While there, I mention legacy, and one of the guys starts telling me about the GPT in Indianapolis on the following day. I completely scrub out in the FNM tourney, but I have a ride to the GPT. I get on the wrong bus however, and figure I'm going to be late, but I switch routes and get to the game shop 20 minutes before they arrive. Traffic is a bitch, because of the Indiana University: Bloomington homecoming game, and we get to Indianapolis with 20 minutes left before the tourney. I pick up a Dragon's Breath for the sideboard, and register. This is what I played


Golden Grahams
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Living Wish
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Tainted Pact
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
2 Nights Whisper
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Krosan Reclamation
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper

1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Plains
2 Snow Covered Forest
2 Forest
3 Snow Covered Swamp
2 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath

SB:
4 Tsunami
1 City of Brass
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Gamekeeper
1 Trinket Mage
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
1 Kjeldoran Dead
2 Darksteel Colossus
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Dragon's Breath

I triple checked the list this time, after getting a game loss in GPT Louisville for a misregistered card. No problems, so I sit around and wait for the tourney to start.

Round 1: Chris with White Weenie.

Game 1: He throws down a Chrome Mox, and plays a turn 1 Soltari Priest. I fire off an Innocent Blood just to screw up his day. Later on he fires off Mother of Runes and Mask of Memories, but that is nothing compared to the power of me comboing off on turn 5.

Game 2: My notes here are scarce, as they are through out the tourney, but I see that he got out 2 Suntail Hawks and I therapy him circa 3 times, the last time right before comboing off, realizing that he didn't have anything to stop me, so I name Black Lotus for shits and giggles.

1-0-0

Round 2: John with W/b Aggro

Game 1: John plays cards like, Vindicate, Suntail Hawk, SoFI, StP, and Exalted Angel. I duress him once or twice, removing the spells that I need to, and I pull out the victory.

Game 2: Yeah, simply put I start to combo off, and get swords to hell.

Game 3: See: Game 2

1-1-0

Round 3: John with Sensei, Sensei

Game 1: I rode up with John, and he lost round 1, and got the bye round two. We joke for a few minutes before the round starts. He brings out a turn 2 or 3 Helm of Awakening. The next turn I living wish for a Salvagers and combo off.

Game 2: His turn 1: Tundra. Go.
My turn one: Scrubland, Dark Ritual, Chromatic Sphere, Pop the Sphere for green, Draw some jank, Play 2 Lion's Eye Diamond, Cast Living Wish and crack them both for WWWWWW, I get the Salvagers with the living wish and cast it with WW floating. John goes "At least I got to play a Tundra"

2-1-0

Round 4: Jason with Not Quite Grow
Game 1: Jason was the guy that won GPT Louisville with practically the same deck. I laugh and claim that I was going to avenge my friend's top four defeat. We shuffle up and he administers a lot of beats, but late in the game, as I'm at 6, I sstabilizeand Combo out.

Game 2: I side in the 2 Colossus, 4 Tsunami and the Dragons Breath. I figure it'd be pretty good. I get out a Tsunami on turn 3 and end up with a Colossus in hand as I sac my Gamekeeper. I forget to target, and start flipping cards. The second Colossus is on the bottom of the deck, so I target myself naming Colossus. The judge is called, and I get a pproceduralwarning. I lose because I took out Krosan Reclamation. That was not good.

Game 3: In short, we play to time and go to the fifth turn. He asks if I'm planning on going to Philly, and I say yes. He nods and looks at the judge. "I scoop" he says as he packs up his cards.

3-1-0

Round 5: I was once told that the last round in a magic tourney, before cut to top 8 is all politics. It didn't take me much to convince my opponent to draw in to the top 8.

3-1-1

Top 8: Andy playing Goblins.

Game 1: So before the match, he's trying to get hints from me about how to win against me. He says something like "I side in pithing needle against you", Me: "Well, that does hurt" Him: "I think I should name the spellbomb with the needle." Me: *smirk* "Sure, taking out my win condition is always good. I win the roll and go land go. He goes turn one lackey, and I go turn 2 Ritual Gamekeeper. He stops altogether, since he doesn't want to kill the keeper, and I combo him out.

Game 2: Anyone remember the bit about the Pithing needle? He turn 1 drops a needle naming Pyrite Spellbomb. I block some goblins with a Gamekeeper, and a hardcast Salvagers, and combo out, using chromatic sphere to go get a living wish and hit him with a very painful Maga, Traitor to Mortals.

4-1-1

Top 4: John (the U/B aggro player from round 2)

Game 1: I get to play the guy that beat me. Oh joy. We trade off with the usual disruption, and he hits a morphed angel, he flips her and taps out. Next turn I combo off.

Game 2: I side in the Colossus plan. Unfortunately I don't see a damn Gamekeeper for the entire game, and he starts beating himself down with an Ancient Tomb, of course his clock is faster than my sitting there and doing nothing. I scoop.

Game 3: I play a forest on turn on followed by a Chromatic Sphere. He duresses me on turn 1 and pulls a Tainted Pact, while I have a Lion's Eye Diamond and an Auriok Salvagers in hand, turn two I play a fetchland, crack a sphere for black and see glory in all shapes and forms. A dark ritual pops into my hand. I crack the fetchland and go get a white source. I bring out turn 2 Salvagers with Lion's Eye Diamond, and a Chromatic Sphere in the graveyard. That's all she wrote folks. He shows me an enlightened tutor from his hand. He would have had a turn 2 pithing needle, if he wouldn't have duressed away my pact and instead grabbed my Lion's Eye Diamond.

5-1-1

Finals: Rory with Landstill

I came up with Rory and offer him my packs if he lets me have the victory. He mulls over it for a second, and figures he won't be attending GP Philly, he takes my packs and we shake hands.

6-1-1

Overall, I'm proud of me again. A GPT victory with Golden Grahams. I want to change the sideboard mostly, but I just didn't have the time to. I had one night to prepare for the event, and even had to scrounge for some cards anyways.

Props:
Rory for being the worst Landstill player to make top 2.
Jason for being awesome and scooping to me.
That guy with Merfolk.DEC and making it 2-3
My deck, for not crapping out on me
Auriok Salvagers, for being able to pull off matches I have no business winning.

Slops:
Pithing Needle, still. I hate that card.
Viridian Shaman, he's overcosted and not too helpful.
All the cards that just sat in my sideboard and stared at me.
Rory, for taking forever in his top 8 matches.
The Marriott for charging $2 for a 20 oz. drink.

The issue is the fact that the only Goblins matchup he had was against someone who clearly hadn't played Magic before that day. I thought I'd like to show you guys this, and get some insight on what you think. Seems like a decent deck, maybe better than the Game, without getting wrecked by StP.

[Rastadon]

Hey there, I'm doing some toying around with Auriok/LED too. I got a few questions about your take on it.

The inclusion of Gamekeeper is a really good idea imo. Delivers both Salvager and LED into position. Also allows you to use tech like Therapy and Blood. But if you already have
Salvager out, do these two directions of the deck conflict with eachother? How often does that happen? Have you ever fired off a Gamekeeper and had it NOT get LED in the yard?

[No_Life_No_Future]

this may be a little bit off subject... but hey i thought i'd bounce the idea off of you.

Have you considered trying to abuse the animating enchantments from gorger?

For example.

a sample hand:
Swamp
Lotus Petal
Animate Dead
Lions Eye Diamond
Chromatic Sphere/bauble/pyrite
Auriok Salvagers
anything....

or

Swamp
Lotus Petal
Animate Dead
Lions Eye Diamond
Chromatic Sphere/bauble/pyrite
gamekeeper
cabal therapy

is a first turn kill... (of course the chances of that are slim)

I havent tested it or anything... but i just thought it was a cool idea.

[Brushwagg]

Well that certainly is a different build of the The Game. Seems preety good and I do like the DSC & Dragon Breath in the board. I wonder where he got that from ???

[psly4mne]

The deck does seem to have a problem with Tormod's, even post-board with DSC. If Gamekeeper is removed before its trigger resolves, you don't get a creature (because of the "if you do" clause"). Maybe too few people know this for it to matter in practice, but DSC doesn't get around grave hate at all.

[Tash]

If Gamekeeper is removed before its trigger resolves, you don't get a creature. Maybe too few people know this for it to matter in practice, but DSC doesn't get around grave hate at all.

...Nope. Can't say that was on the list of things I knew.

If they remove a gamekeeper, yeah it sucks, but then I just have to find another one.

The odds of hitting a salvager and not a diamond are somewhat low, since Salvagers is a 2-of, and diamond is a 4-of. Although it is still possible. At that point, you just go into digging mode.

And at Colsmak:
Seriously. I'm honored that someone would want to start discussion about a deck that I made (ok, game base, but it's definately a different deck). Thanks.

[lyle h]

I have really taken an interest in your build since seeing you play it in Louisville. I have not yet had a chance to try to work on the deck but would the manabase be too shaky to try to work intuition in the deck? The ability to fetch multiple Therpies into the yard/hand seems incredibly strong. It might not be any good, but it seems like if the manabase could take it, that would be incredibly strong.

[Rastadon]

I was thinking that too, and I came up with Ancient Tomb. It doesn't look all that hot in Colsmack's build, but I think that it would help out casting Salvager and Gamekeeper easier. Colsmak, do you think that 4x Dark Rit is enough?

Also, how dangerous is Pithing Needle to this deck, and should we pack MD bounce?

[Tash]

Actually, it's my build. :p

But, technicalities aside.

Pithing Needle is dangerous. I almost want to find room for 3 engineered explosives either in the main or the side. Since you can pop them for 1 off of a dark ritual. B for the casting cost and then BB for the sacrifice. Also it can be pretty nice with salvager recursion, even if you don't have all the pieces you need you can keep recurring it and blowing up stuff that doesn't have a CMC of 4.

The thing I love about this manabase is that it is so flexible around wastelands. There's only 3 lands that can be wasted, and 10 that can't. Along with the 6 fetchlands. I would be hardpressed to fit in Intuition or Ancient Tomb.

Someone suggested Plunge Into Darkness. And I'm really thinking about that. It serves as an instant speed sacrifice outlet, and it also tutors. It definately buys me time when they swords my gamekeeper and I can, in response Sacrifice him to gain 3 life and impulse for 3 life. And then 'Oath'. Seems pretty good to me.

[Rastadon]

My bad.:D

Plunge is great, but I think in a deck like this Diabolic Intent is far better. Sac Gamekeeper for Salvager, get LED and you're set. Of course, it IS a sorc speed tutor, so you'll have to offset their hand and/or just be quicker than their hate.

As for pithing Needle, maybe Gate to Phrexia?

Tendrils of Despair looks great IMO. Hymm for 1? Get combo pieces out? Oooooooh yeah sucka.

[Tash]

Problem with Tendrils of despair, it's pure crap without the gamekeeper. Innocent Blood and Plunge at least do stuff without the gamekeeper. Same goes for Diabolic Intent. Although that is an interesting line of thought. With the D-Intent that is.

[Toranor]

After having read this thread I came up with the following list. I haven't been able to test it yet but I think this list is to give some new ideas and of course it isn't an optimised list.

//Creatures
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvager

//Kill;Combo;Utility
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Conjurer’s Bauble
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy
3 Innocent Blood
1 Krosan Reclamation

//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives

//Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Tainted Pact

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Snow-covered-Forest
1 Swamp
1 Snow-covered-Swamp
1 Snow-covered-Plains
1 Snow-covered-Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Brass

Card choices:

I tried to include the "animate-first-turn-kill-idea".
That's why three animaters are included.
Otherwise Innocent Blood + animate spell might be helpfull against Gro or some other control decks with fatties.

Gifts Ungiven:
Imagine you have Lion's Eye Diamond in hand and play GU.
Search for Spellbomb, Salvager and 2 animate spells...

Lands:
One aspect why there kind of land twice in the deck is GU and the other reason is not to have any problems with Tainted Pact.

Tendrils:
Just to have another option to win...

The Sideboard may include:
1 Brainfreeze (thrid kill option)
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Innocent Blood
1 Tainted Pact
1 Stroke of Genius (fourth kill option)
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Ray of Revelation
and even cards like Counterspell, REB, BEB, Stifle, Chain of Vapor...

What do you think?

[Rastadon]

The build looks pretty good, just a few things could use some tweaking.

I really don't feel Tendrils is needed, it's a kill more spell IMO. By the time Tendrils becomes a kill spell, you've won. I don't see any advantages Tendrils has over the standard Pyrite kill. -1 Tendrils +1 Chromatic Sphere.

-1 Explosives +1 Gifts Ungiven. I'm not so sure about this. It's a very conditional card. Is a maindeck'd Explosives overkill? Gifts seems to have alot of promise in this deck.

So yeah, -1 Tendrils, -1 Explosives, +1 Chromatic +1 Gifts.

On a side note, Meddling Mage could be used as a Living Wish target vs. Needle.

[Toranor]

I agree with you except for one point. It seems important to me to have at least one "real solution" in our MD (I don't count Cunning Wish here because there are only two in the MD, its mana cost (and cost of the targeted spell) might be high and I don't want to add another copy because of Tainted Pact). The advantage of EE is that it can be used several times with Salvager in play. Therefore I suggest to find another card to cut for EE. What about -1 Duress? Here: Cabal Therapy > Duress.

[Tash]

Reaching back a bit, I think this is slightly relevent though.

Anyone see the top eight of GP Philly?

You might recognize the first decklist that was posted on this post.

Sure it wasn't me playing it, but yeah. This deck top eight'd in Philly. I think that calls for just a little bit more discussion on it.

Also I think it calls for this deck to be taken out of the new and developmental forums maybe Open Legacy, or even Legacy Metagame. Since a Win, 3rd place at two GPTs and a top eight at GP Philly says that this deck is just a bit more than just a cute combo deck.

And if anyone can get me a way to contact the guy that piloted this deck to top eight, it would be appreciated. I'd love to talk to him about his matchups and all.

[Rastadon]

Here's his decklist:
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Forest
2 Swamp

2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
4 Living Wish
4 Tainted Pact
2 Night's Whisper
1 Krosan Reclamation

SB:
1 Viridian Zealot
1 City of Brass
2 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Tsunami
1 Kjeldoran Dead
1 Trinket Mage
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Uktabi Orangutan

It's very similar to the builds we've been discussing, except he's got a more focused approach. Some of the ideas thrown around here help out side strategies:stalling vs Gro with Animate Dead, or maindecking EE. While you can do really funky stuff with that, those cards on their own don't focus on your strategy.

One thing's really bothering me though. Why Kagemaro as a wish target? In order to get him out, you'd have to discard your hand via LED to pay for him, and you know what that means. And sure, he is a 7/7 for 5. But no trample? No evasion? No inherent protection from removal?

[Tash]

The list you just posted was one card off from the Decklist I took to the GPT in Louisville, he traded a Maga, Traitor to Mortals for a Uktabi Orangutan. Which I disagree with, you should have a SB kill card. But that's just me.

The Kagemaro was there because you can use him as beats, or as a board clearer VS goblins/random aggro. You don't always have to use LED to cast it, you can use oh, Dark ritual, or even hardcast him.

I took him out, but apparently he used it fairly well in the Iggy Pop matchup. So maybe I'll keep him in there. ::shrug::

[Zilla]

Moved to Open, as the deck has proven itself at Philly and elsewhere. It will have to be a bit more prevalent before it would be considered for the LMF forum, but if it continues to put up the results, that's not unlikely. - Zilla

[Citrus-God]

I've been playing this deck, and Night's Whisper just plain pisses me off. Later, I added in Cruel Tutor (Grim Tutor's expensive), which actually did very well for me...

[Rastadon]

A big weakness of this deck is that Salvager can be killed in response to going off, and that instant creature kill is very rampant. Heck, most decks don't even need to SB Pithing Needles if they maindeck Swords, Gempalm Incinerator, etc. So, what to do?

Hubba hubba hubba hubba...
Steely Resolve!

So, what do you think? Does it deserve MD slots? Of course it means that they can actually start using their Naturalizes, but IMO it provides a cheap protective shield that can be played before Salvager/Gamekeeper hits play.

[Slay]

Alternatively, you could go fetch a DSC and just win.
-Slay

[Rastadon]

Eh, not so much. Because DSC costs eleven you won't be hardcasting it unless you're comboing out. If you're at that stage where you are comboing out unimpeded, then you've already won.

[MattH]

You know what's better than Steely Resolve? Cabal Therapy.

[Rastadon]

I've been doing some testing with the T8'd decklist, and I found that Cabal Therapy definetly held its ground, but most of the time I was just trying to stave off their offenses. First turn vs goblins, drop a swamp and cast Therapy, am I really gonna name Incinerator? Nope. I'm more concerned about staying alive than about protecting a combo that isn't even online yet, so when I cast Therapy I'm gonna name Piledriver.

There's gotta be some more combo protection. Whether this means MD'ing more hand disruption, or playing specific hate cards (ie resolve or Meddling Mage), that's something that needs be discussed.

I realize that well, Resolve sucks. It really has no other applications outside combo protection, and even then it's still a sitting duck for enchantment removal. But it's the most accessible form of permanent safety, and that alone has to give it some merits.

[Slay]

Eh, not so much. Because DSC costs eleven you won't be hardcasting it unless you're comboing out. If you're at that stage where you are comboing out unimpeded, then you've already won.
Um, what? You get the Colossus with Gamekeeper, and board out the combo. That way, creature hate is worthless. That's kind of the idea.
-Slay

[Brushwagg]

Eh, not so much. Because DSC costs eleven you won't be hardcasting it unless you're comboing out. If you're at that stage where you are comboing out unimpeded, then you've already won.
Um, what? You get the Colossus with Gamekeeper, and board out the combo. That way, creature hate is worthless. That's kind of the idea.
-Slay
Except for STP. But Therapy/Duress takes care of that.

Now Maybe I missed it but is Naturalize MD or SB? I was just wondering what do you do if you see Null Rod or Cursed Totem? Besides getting bent over the table. Or if you thing you are going to be hated on bring in the DSC?

[Tash]

There is Uktabi Orangatun in the SB, well at least there should be. Paul S. had the Sex Monkey and the viridian zealot in the board for wish targets.

Duress and Cabal therapy should be able to take out their creature kill, and all the times I was playing goblins I would just throw down a gamekeeper and that would give me stall time because they didn't want me to get the salvagers and win.

[Bane of the Living]

Could this deck benifit any to play cards with dredge? You kind of want therapies, LED, spheres, and stuff in there.

Life from the effin Loam is provenly good. Is it a good route to take here? My attention has gone deep into CAL lately to enjoy abusing that card. Life from the loam helps you dredge 3 cards a turn to find the combo. Plus 1 fetchland you may get off it for the turn, plus 2 cards drawn off of cycling. That means in one turn LftL can dig you 6 cards deep into your lib. Thats like a hand a turn!

Now consider this with wastelock. Wasteland is proven 5 star material in this format. Why not play one every turn? This can keep your opponent down long enough for you to draw into a Keeper/Salvager or dredge through your cog combo pieces.

I now realize how much I love to play in the graveyard.

If this sounds like potential to anyone else dont let it fall on deaf ears. Sound it on the source! This deck is proven top 8 material. Lets keep it rollin!

[MasterBlaster]

I don't think dredge belongs in this deck because milling through Salvager or Gamekeeper is just bad.

[Bane of the Living]

But milling LED and Spheres is very good. Not to mention Darksteel Colossus will always shuffle back in. The problems I have playing this against goblins is because of mana consistancies. Im having problems dealing with Lackey and Wasteland/Port. Out of 10 games today, 5 sideboarded, I won 5. Fanatics were making innocent bloods miss the warcheifs, and Lackey seemed to hit me way too much. Not to mention 4 Duress is just bad here.

Life from the Loam would help me keep in shape with mana problems. And adding it gives you the powerful Mox Diamonds for first turns that will very consistantly look like..

Mox Diamond, pitch Barren Moor. Land, Life from the Loam.
Talk about tempo.
Dredge: LED, land, therapy
Life is good!

Darkblast would also be amazing against gobs of course..
Inclusion of Mox increases all/white mana sources and speed of deck.

[Lego]

It seems like it could be interesting at the very least, but would probably slow down the combo by several turns, which I don't think is a good thing. The deck isn't a slow control deck that wins with a combo finish, it's a combo deck that packs some disruption. I think you're taking it in the wrong direction, but by all means let us know what your testing results are.

[Bane of the Living]

Well I played the deck this past Sunday. I used the list from Philly give or take a few cards. I went 3-2. I won the first 2 rounds then got paired down to a R/G Zilla Stompy deck. First turn I therapy for Survival (what he usually plays) and miss. He put alot of pressure on me and Burning Tree Shaman caused enough of a disturbance to win him the game. He sideboarded Needles and they shut down my Deeds that I sided in. I couldnt swing twice with Colossus before I was dead.

I beat a gob deck next then made my way to top 4. I played the same R/G guy. This time I 'oathed' into a Salvager on the top of my deck. Milling no cogs at all. Second game I smashed face with colossus. Third game I get very unluckey with a tainted pact and burning tree shaman seals the deal.

The other 3 games I won were quite smooth and stellar. No one saw the deck coming, and it provided good competition. I think next time I play the deck Ill push to include dredge. Even Darkblast seems benificial.

[Rambo]

Since everybody has given up on nausea (?) I have been playing this deck a lot, and have been getting owned by meddling mage, pithing needle, and the amazing amount of hate ( tormods crypt, etc) .:mad: (screw that card to heck). Therapies and duress just weren't enough disruption, so i added pernicous deed. That card won me every sideboarded game in the tourney except one where he set his mage to deed. lol. Anyway, i have cleaned up a needle, jitte, and samurai of the pale curtain with that and won. Its amazing. What do you guys think?

[Bane of the Living]

Actually I had deed in my board and I found myself siding it in almost every game 2 and 3. The only probem is the deck doesnt normally run enough mana sources. 19 land isnt enough to support deed with or without rituals. One of my woosta cronies should be piloting the deck at the weekly tourny so ill try to make that tweak in the deck and ill post results here.

[BlindMage]

This is a really cool deck. I like the idea for "The Game" when I first saw it, and this seems like a clear improvement on that. There are a few things that worry me about it. First: your fundamental turn is not really faster than Solidarity's. True, sometimes you will be faster, but after a little testing on MWS, it seemed to be turn 4-5 on average. That would be just fine, except that Salvager Game lacks the maddening resiliancy of Solidarity, having big problems with most of the cards traditionally sideboarded for Solidarity, as well as Pithing Needle, Worship/untargetable creature, Humilty, Astral Slide, graveyard hate, and most spot removal. The fact that it is still a rogue deck does mitigate that somewhat, but that seems like a stupid thing to rely on.

Most of my few test games were against Angel Stompy, and I barely won any of them. Either they would have StP or Parallax wave or Jitte to stop the combo, or they would just kill me before I could go off. How does this compare to the experiance of those who have more experiance with the deck?

Also, I have to question a few of the card choices. 2x Night's Whisper: this seems kinda random to me. Wouldn't something to buy time against a creature rush be a better choice? Infest, for instance, or Moment's Peace, or even Engineered Explosives. Living Wish: before anyone gets the wrong idea, I do think it is a good card. However, it's slower than molasses going uphill in the wintertime, and for all the situations it can solve, it can't solve Humility, and it can't answer graveyard hate. Given that the deck runs 4 other tutors, has anyone tried NOT using the wish? This would allow you to maindeck perhaps Orim's Chant or Abeyance, or 4-of a mass removal spell, or Naturalize, or Pithing Needle, or Phyrexian Arena, or a bunch of other options. It would also allow you to sideboard effective answers for each matchup. All I'm saying is: yes Living Wish is good, but is it really necessary to give your opponent a free Time Walk?

[Rambo]

The whole point of wish is to play it, then win. You can wish for a salvagers or gamekeeper and sac LED in response and win most of the time. Its the card that leads to turn two kills.
Also, does anyone have any suggestions vs hate like pithing needle and crypt? (Other than deed)

[MasterBlaster]

Also, does anyone have any suggestions vs hate like pithing needle and crypt? (Other than deed)

Side in Darksteel Colossus. Thats what they are in the sideboard for.

[Geet]

Darksteel Colossus does not help vs. crypt.

[Bane of the Living]

You can sideboard Pithing Needle against Crypt. Duh?

I prefer this deck to and against Solidarity because you have 4 Duress and 4 Therapy. This stalls for you to win, grabs your opponents Swords, grabs their counterspell, ect. You also mill it into the yard with Gamekeepers.

@BlindMage
Everything you mentioned besides Humility can be dealt with via Living Wish. Thats why we dont take it out. Besides LED + Wish = amazing.

This is a combo deck that needs alot of love. Alot of customizing, and alot of practice. This decks 'biggest' problems.. Needle, StP, Crypt, can all be dealt with before comboing, one way or another. Wish for artifact destruction, wait for a Duress before putting Colossus into play. Ect. Practice with the deck some more before you make too many decisions with it. Whos version were you playing?

[Ventus]

If you're having serious problems with hate, such as Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law (although Colossus gets around the lab), then one answer might be Serenity.

Pros:
1) Gives you a one turn window to combo out
2) Not mana intensive (1W)
3) Can't be stopped by Pithing Needle or Null Rod

Cons:
1) Doesn't hit creatures (Meddling Mage is bad times)
2) Your opponent has a turn to get rid of it or plan around it.

[Bane of the Living]

Serenity doesnt hit Meddling Mage or Burning Tree Shaman. Just play Deed, comon now.

[Rambo]

I saw a list on the mana drain, and it was running decree of pain. It is an uncouterable mage and gamekeeper killer, not to mention a goblin hoser with dark ritual. What do you guys think?

[Bane of the Living]

Decree is definitly a good idea. The only real problem is the mana cost. When normally running 19 lands the deck sometimes has trouble hitting 5, especially through denial lands. Whats the decklist?

[Ventus]

What decks in Legacy play Burning-Tree Shaman? Also, how does Burning-Tree Shaman stop you from Gamekeeper-ing out Darksteel Colossus? Your point, I suppose is that Meddling Mage and creatures in general are a big enough problem so that Serenity isn't good enough. I dunno, if you're really worried about critters, keep a Bone Shredder or a False Prophet (tech!) in your sideboard as a wish target - in a pinch, the Shredder destroys Gamekeeper too.

I guess it all depends on the hate you expect to be facing. Most people in the area I play bring in the artifacts to stop me - Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, and Null Rod. Because of Threshold, you can count on seeing Crypt pretty much no matter where you go. I've found that Crypt alone usually isn't enough to stop me.

Pernicious Deed is probably a better answer than Decree of Pain and Engineered Explosives, although all three get shut down by Pithing Needle (unless you're somehow hard-casting Decree) - Decree doesn't hit artifact hate and the Explosives are useless if they have a Null Rod. Then again, Decree can't be Forced and EE can be recurred if you have Salvagers. It's all a matter of what you expect to be facing.

[Bane of the Living]

Zilla Stompy plays BTS. Its an effective beater that ties on a few more points of damage thanks to things like Vial and Fetchlands, are you suprised it's played? It stops me from comboing unless I have an answer for it. Bone Shredder is a good idea, I dont know why I didnt consider him before.

Not sure if you realized this but your opponent can respond to Gamekeepers death by activating their Tormod's Crypt. He'll rfg and he'll never trigger. That makes it so even Colossus plan is trickey with crypt in play. Fortunatly no one I paly against seems to know that. I feel like Im letting the cat out of the bag even mentioning it here.

I really think Infernal Tutor has a place in the deck. Replacing maybe Tainted Pact or whatever other tutor effect people are trying. Its very easy to dump your hand and tutor for that last cog. Its card 'doubling' tutor effect is pretty disgusting with Therapy as well.

[Ventus]

I'm aware that a Crypt can stop the Gamekeeper. But if all they have is one Crypt then you can usually just play around it. If you're careful, Crypt can't stop the Salvagers, and while stopping a Gamekeeper is clearly bad for this deck, it's not the end of the world. STP and Stifle do the same thing, but you can usally nail them with Duress or Cabal Therapy.

I've haven't seen the Shaman yet (no Zilla-Stompy players around), but I have had to deal with Disciple of the Vault, which is equally bad for this deck, so you're probably right that Deed is simply better going into a large metagame.

I'm also beginning to see Leyline of the Void pop up in sideboards (and Iggy-Pop), which tough to deal with if it starts in play, short of wishing for Monk Realist or paying a total of 7 to wipe it with Deed. Stupid replacement effects..

I agree - Infernal Tutor would be absolutely insane in this deck. I don't think it necessarily completely replaces the Pact - Most builds run Night's Whisper or Sylvan Library, and while they're ok, neither of them is as crazy as the Tutor would be. Although I haven't tested it out yet (because I suspect that the WOTC is going to hit the Tutor with the ban hammer in Legacy), I would think that the Tutor would be busted because you can:

- Tutor, sac LED in response, get anything in your deck
- Double LED (if you have another tutor or wish)
- Double Cabal Therapy and rip your opponent's hand to shreds
- Double Gamekeeper (if you're facing down Crypt)
- Rip it off the top with an empty hand for the win.

All this for 2 mana seems pretty solid.

[Bane of the Living]

I highly doubt a new card will be banned in this format. Its been a long long time since a card was banned when first introduced, and I doubt it would be the tutor anyways. Infact, since Infernal Tutor is just around the corner Im sure they took it too mind with the March bannings. If anything LED would probably become ban worthy but it remained unchanged. They did see some Iggy decks post results and werent too worried about it, still printing the Infernal Tutor, which I suspect will bring huge life to the combo scene.

Deed does seem best as of the moment but I've been sideboarding it. Ive been toying around with Darkblast a bit and Im pretty impressed. I originally wanted Life from the Loam for the draw engine and help with the decks mana troubles, but Darkblast showed to be the best candidate. It allows for more lackey answers, also being amazing against the hordes in general. It dredges cogs and therapies into the graveyard, and its another way to off your Gamekeepers. It also takes care of Meddling Mages, even tho slow, it can dredge back through countermagic. Give blast a try and let me know what you think.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I've been tinkering around with dredge in this deck on apprentice, and it certainly is good. It helps the decks biggest issue: Having Salvagers but no artifacts in the yard. I use Life from the Loam too, but thats because I play super secret tech at the moment. Darkblast dredges for the same number, and it can kill most of the usual suspects, and it even shoots at your Gamekeeper if theres no better option.

[Watcher487]

What are people's opinion about adding blue into the deck?

Lim-Dul's Vault and Brainstorm are both awesome cards that really does need some consideration.

Now this will make the mana base worse for most considerations, but Teferi's Response makes all LD into 3 for 1's

This is what I ran @ Kaddy's DLD on 4/8/06
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Pollutted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strands
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Snow-covered Swamp

3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Night's Whisper
3 Tainted Pact
2 Brainstorm
4 Living Wish
1 Krosan Reclaimation
1 Life from the Loam

I ended up going 4-2 overall you can read my match-ups here:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3170&page=12

This is something that I've been kicking around since Hollywood built 'The Game' a little over a year and a half. The deck is amazingly more consistant even with all of the 'Non-basic hate' floating about. I think the big thing that people need to consider is that since heavy Wasteland decks are not putting up the numbers that they used to. It might be an interesting idea to consider the splash.

[Bane of the Living]

When SillyMetalGAT played the deck at the Kadilaks he had alot of luck with Spoils of the Vault over Tainted Pact.

@Watcher487
The blue splash is interesting but did you ever have problems with your mana base? This deck doesnt have the best base with 19 lands anyways.

How did you like dredge in the deck?

[SillyMetalGAT]

Well, as Bane already mentioned, I played this at the D4D's. ended up going 2-3 DROP with it, but I had a blast playing it. On the way home though, I got to thinking, what about a blue splash? So after to talking to Niknight for a while in the car, I decided to test it out. I present to all of you, my lastest creation:

Gifts-Keeper

Land:
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures:
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Draw:
4 Living Wish
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Night's Whisper

Artifacts:
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

Removal/Disruption:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Innocent Blood

Accel:
4 Dark Ritual

Super Secret Tech:
2 Reanimate


SB:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Darksteel Colossus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dragon Breath
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kjeldoran Dead
1 City of Brass
1 Trinket Mage
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers

Out of initial testing alone, this deck is slower by about 1-2 turns, but the consistency makes me wet myself. Gifts is probably the most rediculous card for this deck. When the deck goes EOT turn 2 Gifts for Salvagers, Keeper, LED, Reanimate....... Things get pretty hairy. Let me know what you think.

[Lego]

ended up going 2-4 DROP with it

You can't drop after the last round :-P


Out of initial testing alone, this deck is slower by about 1-2 turns

I don't know that slowing the deck down is the way to go, but if you're consistency is increased enough, you could still be okay. I think you need to consistantly be comboing out on Turn 3, as many aggro decks can win by Turn 4. Slowing the deck down by 2 turns means that you sometimes won't be winning until Turn 4 or 5, when Goblins could already have beat you.

[SillyMetalGAT]

@Lego_Army_Man: Nice catch on the 2-4, should be 2-3. As for the slowing down, the nice thing against Goblins is that this deck kinda combos off a turn earlier against them; What I mean is that Goblins would be stupid to swing into a Gamekeeper without having lethal on the board. I've never seen Goblins go lethal on turn 3, but if it happens, im quitting Magic.

[Bane of the Living]

It also means if your going Darksteel C route he needs 2 more turns to win putting you at turns 6-7 ftw. Yuck.

Sorry I dont see Gifts being worth a 4th color. This deck was nice and simple as The Game at 2 colors. Salvagers was painstakingly added for the crazy combo win it warranted. At a shakey mana base of 19 land you want to add another color for a 4cc spell that isnt keeper or salvager. Hence a 4cc spell that wont win the game when it resolves.. And now your at 18 land. I dont see it being worth it.

Im skeptical about the blue splash for even the Brainstorms yet Vault seems quite powerful. I know theres a way to keep a good combo deck from going 4 colours though.

Reanimate seems like it could be usefull but I think Ill try my luck with Infernal Tutor first.

[noobslayer]

This is rather random. But as far as wishboards, why does everyone seem to prefer Darksteel Collosus? I have a personal preference to Akroma. To me, she seems to alter the state of the game a lot more, and hits hard while remaining on defense. I like the Akroma-Razia plan game 2.

[SillyMetalGAT]

First off, the deck very LIGHTLY splashes the white, and granted, I only played the deck in 5 rounds and thats my only expirience, but I had no problem mana-wise. This could be because nobody plays Wasteland anymore. The White shouldnt even be considered a splash, so this really just comes down to teh deck being B/G/U. As for the Green, the only cards that are green are Gamekeepers and Living Wishes. 7 cards with 11 different ways to produce green seems ok to me. So your really only dealing with having to get blue and black. Not that hard with 6 fetches.

From here, we can look at the possibilities of tutors. For Black, you have Tainted Pact, Plunge into Darkness, and Spoils of the Vault. All of these are pretty sub-par (especially Spoils considering it lost me 2 games) Black also has card draw in the form of Night's Whisper. Whisper is probably one of the best card draws out there just because of its simplicity. Draw 2 and lose 2. Sounds good to me. It also saved my ass multiple times because it ripped 2 lands off the top of my deck that normally would suck!

So, as we can see, Black is good for dealing with the Keeper, disruption, and mana accel, but sucks badly at searching. So, until I see something that is much better (Infernal looks LEGIT, not good enough to run though, I could be wrong though) Im pretty sure this deck can run off another color.

So, with 2 colors left to explore, Red and Blue, Im guessing BLUE is better. Looking for Tutors, one card came across right away: Gifts Ungiven. THE CARD IS CURRENTLY DOMINATING 2 FORMATS!!!! It can't be bad!

If I need to help prove this point to anyone, I will gladly playtest this out online, my AIM screenname is on my profile.


@Noobslayer: Akroma is a really strong option, I was also considering..... NO FLAME PLZ...... Sundering Titan? He may suck big time for the land thing, but he is a 7/10..... and it does slow the opponent down TREMENDOUSLY!

[noobslayer]

I believe sundering titan was tested in the original straight version of The Game... with poor results.

[Bane of the Living]

You didnt have any mana problems because you were lucky enough not to play many opponents with Wastelands. Also because I fixed the mana base in your deck to include 7 basic swamps and 3 less fetch lands than other builds.

Plunge is actually not terrible since it acts as a way to kill off keeper. Tainted Pact needs to be built around, Spoils I guess is the same its always been, good but it can kill you. Gamekeeper is your Tutor, so is Living Wish. I still dont see a reason to add 4 colors to this deck.

Akroma wont kill your opponent in two turns. Sundering Titan is just terrible in this deck. It geddons you and has no evasion. DC is the way to go, I dont see much arguing in that. You dont need Akroma to be defensive because as soon as DC hits the table your opponent should be the one worried. Especially if you get Dragon tech on him. You dont bring in the DC plan against most aggro decks anyways since that plan is 2-3 turns slower. You need to go combo against aggro and race them.

If your plan is to play slower Id rather add cards like Vindicate or Deed to the main.

[SillyMetalGAT]

This deck works perfectly fine, if not better with another color. As mentioned earlier, the white shouldnt be considered, theres only 2 cards in the deck (3 if you include the SB) that use white, im surprised the deck even plays 3 plains-based lands, But I wont disagree with results.

What does this deck do when your opponent goes StP for the win? Just roll over and die? At least Reanimate gives you some help (animate keeper and repeat the wash) Gifts gives the deck to grab WHATEVER it needs at the time.... I dont know if a lot of people know this, but im pretty sure that you can search for less than 4 cards. I asked a level 2 and a level 1 judge and they both said the same thing: Gifts can go for any amount of cards and your opponent chooses 2 to put in the graveyard. So you could go for Chromatic Sphere and LED, have them both dropped and win... off of topdecking a Salvagers. Howabout searching for just Salvagers, Keeper, Reanimate AFTER you pop LED in response? or just going Salvagers, LED, Keeper while holding Reanimate in hand? Hell, even throw Therapy in one of those if you wanted to just to have the backup!

@Titan: Just an idea, he worked wonders in Welder Survival, so I thought maybe...... Im guessing no. Darksteel is cool and all, but man hes got a HUGE bullseye on his head. At least Akroma swings in for 6 once maybe, she also frees up a sideboard slot (no more dragon breath FTL)

[Bane of the Living]

StP hurts any large creature just as much as DC but you shouldnt have a problem with that thanks to 4 Therapy and 4 Duress.

I think the biggest arguement I have against Gifts is that the deck already has its combo search engine. Gamekeeper is there along with Living Wish w/LED mana to cheat out Salvagers. Gamekeepers mill affect should put the cogs needed to win into your graveyard already. I dont have a problem comboing off with those cards. Its support cards for the combo that I want. I think something like Unmask or Hymn to Tourach would benifit the deck more than Gifts Ungiven.


What does this deck do when your opponent goes StP for the win? Just roll over and die? At least Reanimate gives you some help (animate keeper and repeat the wash)

The Gamekeeper RFG's when he triggers so he's not in your yard if you comboed with him. Wouldnt Reanimate work better with something like Darkblast?

[Lego]

I've never seen Goblins go lethal on turn 3, but if it happens, im quitting Magic.

I've won on Turn 2 with Goblins, but that's really not what we're talking about here :)

I like the splash a lot, but I think it will hurt consistency when you start facing Wastelands, and it doesn't offer any more speed. I think the deck is doing well as is. Has anyone testing the new tutor?

[Windux]

Againt Goblins and Sui, you allways want to fetch as much basics as possible.
I Just tryed 1 Tropical Island, because of the Sideboardcard Trinket Mage.

My Sideboard varies from Tournament to tournament:
3 Darkblast instead of 3 Tsunamis (becasue of the lack of Solidarity and Standstill...its not that good against gro)
1-2 Perish (against Gro, Survival)
1 Trinket Mage
1 Tormods Crypt (i Board the Crypt in, can draw it/search it with Pact or wish for Trinket Mage to tutor it. Thats the reason for 1 Tropical island).

I Also thought about Colossus+Dragon breath+Seize the Days (on german: Carpe Diem..really nice :) ).
Thats 22Damage in one round and the 2R are payable -> 4 LED, 4 Chromatic Sphere.

What do you think about this Colossus-tactic?

[Watcher487]

I've won on Turn 2 with Goblins, but that's really not what we're talking about here :)

I like the splash a lot, but I think it will hurt consistency when you start facing Wastelands, and it doesn't offer any more speed. I think the deck is doing well as is. Has anyone testing the new tutor?

Hold up here.

How many Wastelands were in the top 8 at Kaddy's DLD?
I know for a fact that I faced off against only 1 deck that had wastes.
(Only 2 lands wasted, I even wasted one back with Teferi's Response.)

I personally don't think there is enough search in the basic 3 color deck to begin with. What happens when you bring in the 4th color is consistancy. Brainstorm was literally a god-send whenever I played it. Lim-Dul's Vault made it so I could win the game usually on the next turn.

@Manabase issues:
I only had 1 situation where I had a manabase problem. That was versus Gearhart in round 6. I had mis-tapped my lands and Ritual'd into a Living Wish for Gamekeeper with no Green availible.

I never cracked my sac-lands or Chromatic Spheres unless I needed them. Against Dryad Sligh (my only opponent with Wastes) I had 4 Basics in play by turn 5.

The format is slowly going back to the way it was prior to the whole wasteland issue.

[parallax]

I Also thought about Colossus+Dragon breath+Seize the Days (on german: Carpe Diem..really nice :) ).
Thats 22Damage in one round and the 2R are payable -> 4 LED, 4 Chromatic Sphere.

What do you think about this Colossus-tactic?

If you see a Dragon's Breath and then a Colossus off the same Gamekeeper, the Colossus is put into play before the Breath is in your graveyard. Also, Dragon's Breath is a dead card if you draw it.

[Windux]

If you see a Dragon's Breath and then a Colossus off the same Gamekeeper, the Colossus is put into play before the Breath is in your graveyard. Also, Dragon's Breath is a dead card if you draw it.
Isnt it so, that Gamekeeper Puts DSCS into play, then puts the Cards into grave, THEN SBE gets checked and the Breath triggers?

/Edit: Ok, checked it, I was wrong.
With Oath of Druids, it would work...the devil is in the detail :)

[Bane of the Living]

The combo route is better than the colossus one imo. Its not worth adding 2 more cards to make DC more lethal. He'll usually get the job done fine without help from janky red cards.

Ive done some testing with IT! (Infernal Tutor)

I think IT will fit the bill as our missing piece. Theres been alot smack talked about combo's rebirth. If any deck should benefit from the tutor the most its this one. Find another Therapy? Find another LED and Living Wish ftw? 8 ways to pop LED with a tutor on the stack? Sounds good to me. I say fuck the 4 color route and heil IT. Hopefully it will suck in standard so I wont have to dish out $80 a playset.

For me its been 100% better than either Tainted Pact, Spoils, ect. At worst it grabs an extra copy of the best card in your hand. Gamekeeper, Dark Ritual, Therapy, LED..

[Watcher487]

Going the old route is just the wrong way of doing things. There are way too many decks right now playing Swords to Plowshares or is just faster than swinging with DSC over 2+ turns. I didn't even side in DSC @ DLD.

Infernal Tutor... I know this is going to be huge in type 2, extended and type 1. So all wishful thinking aside, I do expect this to leave the format about 2 months from now. It is an amazing card if set up right. Just like all of the other search listed in the deck to begin with. Tainted Pact will definatly be chompped away for this in most decks. I still say that adding blue would still make the deck better.

[SillyMetalGAT]

They wont ban Infernal Tutor, They'll ban LED. The synergy with LED is just too much, plus LED goes with the Wishes.... But I dont think that either card will get banned.

As for the deck, I did some playtesting a couple days ago with Bane and the dredge proved to be pretty good. I played with Darkblasts, and everytime I dredged, it won me the game. I dont know if anyone has had this kind of luck, but I highly reccomend Darkblasts.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Oh, I used to have the wrong information about Tainted Pact, thinking it move cards into graveyards. For it really removes cards from the game, Infernal Tutor is likely a better choice, and I might enjoy the dredge from Darkblasts as I enjoyed the dredge from my version of Tainted Pact.
Then, What to put out for Darkblasts?
LED might be the first to be banned :cry:
Any other exciting hellbent cards to join the deck?

[threetonsflax]

First, has anyone else tried taking out Chromatic Sphere? I find myself just using it to cantrip early game. If there's not a Spellbomb in the yard it obviously fixes that, but what about running 3/4 spellbombs and no spheres? Spellbombs also function as a way to kill of Keeper. Second, Plunge into Darkness has been great for me. The versatility of it has been amazing and I've been trying it out as a replacement for Innocent Blood. As long as we can load up on tutors/draw/accelerants, we should be beating aggro.

[Bane of the Living]

Chromatic Sphere is in the deck because it fixes mana issues. You cant get white for Salvagers during combo unless you have it in hand or on board sometimes. Dark rit is great with it to filter mana for things like Gamekeeper or hardcasting Salvager.

Its quite helpfull and I would never play less than 4. If you wanted more Spell Bombs id remove Innocent Blood.

[threetonsflax]

Yeah, scratch that. Sphere definitely is good. I'm often using up all my mana early on so the fact that it cantrips for free helps out. That's been much more important than the mana-fixing, helping me to cantrip and cast a draw spell turn 2. So far the combination of Night's Whisper/Plunge into Darkness/Living Wish has seemed to work out well.

I've been testing the Infernal Tutor, but have been very underwhelmed with it, perhaps because I'm already running a wishboard and have the Wish/LED synergy. Has anyone else found it particularly useful?

I've also been wanting some more accelerants in the deck. Dark Ritual and LED are great, but having a few extra accelerants to use on draw/tutoring in the first 2 turns would really help. I was thinking Lotus Petal but I'll have to test it.

[Watcher487]

As of right now I'm running search wise,
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Brainstorm
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Night's Whisper
4 Living Wish

Since I'm playing 4 colors I actually save Spheres till I actually need them. And since I'm running a heck of alot more draw/search than normal they usually stay in play for a while, but there is the occasion where I do need them mana.

Infernal Tutor has been working ok for me lately. I run alot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs so it's non-hellbent version really isn't worth it. It is still worth it for the connection between LED and it but I might just cut another 1 from the deck.

Lately Night's Whisper has been horrible. It's usually bad against Aggro and most Burn decks, while I do like the card drawing the bigger issue is the Life Loss. With Vault, I attempt to win next turn, but with Whisper I'm in the middle of building up.

[threetonsflax]

I've been similarly split on Whisper. I am often cutting it quite close against aggro and sometimes the life matters. On the other hand I'm also running Plunge into Darkness so I guess I shouldn't be complaining about the 2 life. I'd love to have access to Brainstorm and Vault (as well as Trinket Mage for SB), but the manabase is already low on basics I don't think another color is the way to go. What do you cut out for the draw/search that you fit in there?

For reference I'll post my list:
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Spellbomb
4 Night's Whisper
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
4 Living Wish
1 Infernal Tutor

[Watcher487]

Well the big thing that I look at is if you have the ability to look for the mana you need when you need it. My list ( on the previous page on this thread) which I did play recently, looks like it's more geared toward the Tainted Pact style of deck but amazingly it isn't.

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Pollutted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Snow-covered Swamp

Now what is going on here is, I have the ability to pull any mana I need off of any Sac-land I use. Now while I only play 12 permenent mana sources (w/ 7 sac-lands), I usually have the mana I need for the right situation even if my opponent is running 40 Wastelands.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I've been similarly split on Whisper. I am often cutting it quite close against aggro and sometimes the life matters. On the other hand I'm also running Plunge into Darkness so I guess I shouldn't be complaining about the 2 life. I'd love to have access to Brainstorm and Vault (as well as Trinket Mage for SB), but the manabase is already low on basics I don't think another color is the way to go. What do you cut out for the draw/search that you fit in there?

For reference I'll post my list:
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Spellbomb
4 Night's Whisper
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
4 Living Wish
1 Infernal Tutor

I run Trinket Mage....... Hes such a good card in the wishboard. I dont typically use the wishes until I have LED so I can play Trinket Mage.

[Bane of the Living]

I've been similarly split on Whisper. I am often cutting it quite close against aggro and sometimes the life matters. On the other hand I'm also running Plunge into Darkness so I guess I shouldn't be complaining about the 2 life. I'd love to have access to Brainstorm and Vault (as well as Trinket Mage for SB), but the manabase is already low on basics I don't think another color is the way to go. What do you cut out for the draw/search that you fit in there?

For reference I'll post my list:
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Spellbomb
4 Night's Whisper
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
4 Living Wish
1 Infernal Tutor

Whoa man where are your removal spells? I dont think Id feel safe playing this deck without the removal card, namely Innocent Blood. You dont even leave yourself outs against Meddling Mage when you remove them.

Has anyone tested Unmask in the more comboish versions?

[Bane of the Living]

Well I hate double posting but most people seem to be fiddling with Iggy Pop now instead of Keeper. As with all black combo decks this one got a bump with IT as well. Maybe more thanks to the utilities the deck has to fetch with simply the 'nonHellbent' IT.

Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Night's Whisper
Duress
Living Wish
LED
Gamekeeper

Look at all those money targets. Against control we have extra draw with Night's Whisper, creating a Deep Analysis like advantage. We also have Duress and Therapy, amazing in doubles. Double Living Wishes to battle Pithing Needles. Double keeper ensures we resolve one, get one to die via NOT Swords to Plowshares, and thin out out of the deck for comboing.

Mana 29
1 Scrublands
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Control 12
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood

Engine 10
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
3 Chromatic Sphere
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Aether Spellbomb

Search/Draw 10
3 Night's Whisper
4 Living Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

Board 15
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Darksteel Colossus
2 Darkblast
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvager
1 Trinket Mage
1 Kjedorian Dead
1 Viridian Shaman


Mana Base..
Mana is important since its a three color combo deck that cant miss a land drop. Wasteland is out there so I like keeping extra basics in my build. If the deck thins out too much via fetches Its sometimes hard to topdeck one. The rest of the mana base is the 0 drop artifact breed. I like adding a couple petals cause they can make an awful hand so much better. They also give me more rainbow mana along with Chromatic Sphere.

Control...
A sixth of this deck is control. Another sixth of the deck can tutor or draw into it. It's all one black mana and easy to cast mid comboing thanks to Dark Ritual. Thats the reason I'll stay with those 12 cards always. They're all efficient at what they do, hell Therapy and Innocent Blood are 'part' of the combo.

Draw/Search..
Nothing beats Infernal Tutor. Spoils of the Vault and Plunge lose you life. I hate losing life playing a combo deck. Spoils, Plunge, and Tained Pact all RFG cards. I dont want cards RFG. My deck is my combo. Nights Whisper is good at what it does, its life loss has no compare to spoils. Living Wish is always a 4 of here. I know combo normally doesnt like 4 wishes but they get countered and discarded often. Wish is great because it kills or gets around Needle and Crypt. It has amazing synergy with IT and LED.


The part I like about my deck is the more firm mana base, as well as the ability to switch in Pernicious Deed. Lotus Petal is not Chrome Mox, thus you dont lose more off deed. Yet Lotus Petal allows for turn 2 deed goodness.

[FallenOmnipotent]

you do know there's 61 cards right?
Also, do you feel the mana base is too vunerable to LD? e.g. Deadguy's Sinkhole, Vindicate, Wastelands.

[Bane of the Living]

Yes I know its 61 cards thanks tho!

I think my mana base is much more stable than most builds. I run more basics and I run fewer fetches to thin land from the deck. If you play with Wasteland in mind you shouldnt have problems. Hold fetches for your instat speed draw/search so it doesnt get hit by Sinkholes. You have a bad game against Deadguy but not terribly bad, they cant do much if Keeper hits the table. Most versions dont even run 4 swords main.

[Lego]

The only problem I have with your list is that it has virtually no way to deal with enchantments after they hit the board. The argument against this problem will certainly be that no enchantments can hit the board before you have time to deal with them (Duress, Cabal Therapy, or comboing out faster,) but that's not always true, and I'd like to see some options anyway. If Aura of Silence is on the table, you can't combo out. If Worship/Mongoose hits the board, you can't win. If Solitary Confinement sticks, you're done.

Post-board you've got Pernicious Deed for these problems, and I grant that they don't see all too much play, and you should have time to Duress/Cabal Therapy them out, but I'd like to see if there is some way to deal with them. Viridian Shaman becoming Viridian Zealot, maybe. Or finding room for a Monk in the board. In fact, I'm not sure that Monk Realist doesn't simply have more applications that the Shaman anyway. Just a thought.

[Finn]

The only problem I have with your list is that it has virtually no way to deal with enchantments after they hit the board. The argument against this problem will certainly be that no enchantments can hit the board before you have time to deal with them (Duress, Cabal Therapy, or comboing out faster,) but that's not always true, and I'd like to see some options anyway. If Aura of Silence is on the table, you can't combo out. If Worship/Mongoose hits the board, you can't win. If Solitary Confinement sticks, you're done.
To say nothing of Leyline of the Void. You really can scoop to that before the game starts. Gamekeeper beatdown, anyone?

Game 1 vs. IGG could go like this about half the time:
you: P or D?
him: P.
you: OK.
him: Leyline.
you: Hmm. G2?

[Bane of the Living]

To say nothing of Leyline of the Void. You really can scoop to that before the game starts. Gamekeeper beatdown, anyone?

Game 1 vs. IGG could go like this about half the time:
you: P or D?
him: P.
you: OK.
him: Leyline.
you: Hmm. G2?

You guys are certainly looking for worst case situations here huh? Well first off. Thankfully only I and one other person play Confinement at my store, and yes the 8 discard spells are AMAZING ways to deal with it. Infact the deck is more resilient than you might want to give it credit for. I've certainly seen the deck win on turn 2 before so its got speed to race hate. But as a combo deck its got more outs against disruption than ANY other combo deck in the format. I think what scares people away from the deck is thinking how many things are bad for it. Crypt, Needle, Leyline, CotV, Ivory Mask effects.. ect. This combo deck has 8 discard effects, 4 removal spells, and 4 wishes to fetch answers to multiple problems as well as improve combo consistancy.

What other combo deck can fight that much hate?

Go ahead, think of one..

I think I forgot to add Monk to the sb honestly. I really dislike Zealot because of the extra mana commitment along with the 11GGGG needed to play wish, him, and kill your target. Honestly.. Fuck that.

Keep in mind there are a few of us that prefer to play with Deeds main with a slower stable combo route in mind. Humility and Worship are shit against mr. deeds.

[Tacosnape]

Why doesn't this deck just pack a Vindicate or two? It's got the base to support it, and Vindypants can take out Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of Teh Void, etc.

[bigbear102]

Lets see, Solidarity can fight through: REB's, Pyroblast, Pyrostatic Pillar, Boil, Boiling Seas, Tsunami, Armageddon, Meddling Mage, Arcane Lab, Counterspells, Crypt, Chant, Abeyance, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere... and all of the discard packages.

[BlindMage]

...as a combo deck its got more outs against disruption than ANY other combo deck in the format.


Solidarity. I'm constantly impressed by Solidarity's ability to not be affected by the stuff people board for it.

That's not really the point, though. The point I want to make is that while there are cards that hose other combo decks like Solidarity, IGG, and Nausea; some of the cards (and 1 in particular) that make trouble for Salvager Game are maindeck in several decks: Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needle, and even Force of Will. So, even if you do have better capability to deal with disruption, you effectively face more disruption. That said, I really like this deck, and if I could find some LEDs I would play it.


Keep in mind there are a few of us that prefer to play with Deeds main with a slower stable combo route in mind. Humility and Worship are shit against mr. deeds.

I think that this is one of the huge things the deck has going for it, however, your last list only had deed in the sideboard. Does this mean you're running them main now? If so, what did you drop for them? Of not, what do you board out for them?

[noobslayer]

Barring Leyline, Punishment might solve a good number of these problems. And if you have to, you can pop your gamekeeper and Leyline in one swift blow.

[Watcher487]

Barring Leyline, Punishment might solve a good number of these problems. And if you have to, you can pop your gamekeeper and Leyline in one swift blow.

That will not work since they are leaving at the same time it will still remove the Gamekeeper from the game first.

I like the idea of playing Vindicate but since White is more like a splash color in the deck it's probably not worth the effort. But as of right now I'm currently running 1 Pernicious Deed MD with 1 Pernicious Deed, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Stern Procter and 1 Viridian Zealot in the Sideboard.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok so there is Solidarity. Tho they can fight through many hate cards, even specific storm ones it still has bad matchups to resource denial decks like Deadguy. Infact Solidarity has a terrible games against Salvagers. You can combo just as fast, but you have proactive combo protection whereas your opponent has reactive. (Remand, Force, bounce) I think that was my point really.

This deck has the amazing ability to neuter your opponent in the first 2-3 turns then combo off without a care in the world. I dont loose CA off my discard unlike Force of Will, and unlike Force my disruption actual works towards the goal of comboing off. Innocent Blood will kill the Meddling Mage and the keeper. Therapy strips my opponents needle away then sacs to oath keeper. No combo decks in the format pack as much disruption as this deck. That in turn gives it a better game against other combo decks. Especially when we arent playing Ill Gotten Gains, Helm of Awakening, or any other opponent friendly cards.

I usually board out the Nights Whispers and the lone Aether Spellbomb for Deeds when needed. I like them main too but I really havent decided if theyre worth it or not. I really like going all out combo ftw game 1. Game 2 is when you act more conservative against your opponents anti combo cards. Deed cleans them up.

[Michael Keller]

In my opinion:

Scrap this deck - it's awful.

1. Too inconsistent.
- How many cards does this deck really need to do anything?

2. Too slow.
- There's no way Gamekeeper is going to resolve without heavy backup which this deck lacks in so many ways.

3. Too outlandish.
- People are just trying various things to do with a Gamekeeper when all you really need to do is smash someone's face for 11 rather than have to do all the Artifact and Salvager nonsense to make yourself look good for the sake of looking good.

4. No showings.
- Rare. Whether or not people agree, the Game is Rock w/ combo. Rock/Game is so much more solid than a deck of this type.

5. This isn't Type 1.
- Don't try throwing in cheap artifacts with a bunch of combo pieces and then call the deck a decent combo...when it really isn't lol.

The Game>>>>>>>>>>>>Salvagers Game.

TMD tried improving a deck that already was optimum...this deck is apart of the
"Don't Let This Happen To You Crowd".

[Lego]

In my opinion:

Scrap this deck - it's awful.

1. Too inconsistent.
- How many cards does this deck really need to do anything?

Technically, two. Gamekeeper and a sac outlet will do it, Salvagers and an LED will do it. The strength of the deck lies in the fact that a lot of the pieces double as disruption. And they all find each other.


2. Too slow.
- There's no way Gamekeeper is going to resolve without heavy backup which this deck lacks in so many ways.

Lacks backup? Are you kidding? It packs 8 maindeck discard spells. What more do you want?


3. Too outlandish.
- People are just trying various things to do with a Gamekeeper when all you really need to do is smash someone's face for 11 rather than have to do all the Artifact and Salvager nonsense to make yourself look good for the sake of looking good.

Or the whole "Win before your opponent untaps" thing. I'd prefer not to give my opponent three more turns to live.

The rest of your comments were irrelevant. Because the deck hasn't had a string of huge showings is a good reason to keep it out of the LMF forum; it's not a good reason to stop working on it.

Just because you've had some success with The Game doesn't mean that people should stop working on Salvager Game. Honestly, posts like yours aren't very helpful.

[Michael Keller]

Just because you've had some success with The Game doesn't mean that people should stop working on Salvager Game. Honestly, posts like yours aren't very helpful.

There's a reason I've had success with the Game - it's because it's proven better than this.

Well then here's something that might ACTUALLY be helpful to you, since you're so unequivocally sure of yourself-

"The ultimate victory in competition is derived from the inner satisfaction of knowing that you have done your best and that you have gotten the most out of what you had to give." - Howard Cosell (Legendary Sports Journalist)

2: Equip above statement to this whole thread to remove your target nonsense from reality.

[Bane of the Living]

You obvously havent dont any testing with this deck at all. Come in here with some real discussion. If you've played the deck give us insight to your matches. Maybe you made play mistakes or didnt see an out the deck gave you. This is one of the harder combo decks in the format, but its also one of the most dangerous because it wins combo mirrors easily.

I dont need to argue why Golden Grahams is better than The Game, look at its results. Dont try to de-evolve our deck.

[scutakicker]

Wow Legend. Way to come out of nowhere and hijack a thread. Back to the issues at hand...

I'd like to talk about matchups for a moment. First, Goblins. I have no trouble racing them since a resolved Gamekeeper means that they have to build up to kill me in a single turn or I go off. The biggest issue I find to be Wasteland. I was only running 1 each of basic forest/plains/swamp and the rest fetches and duals. I'm feeling that's a little light and plan to move to 2 forest, 2 swamp, 1 plains. (There's also the occassional game where they have Kiki-Jiki, a Matron and 2 other Goblins in play, giving them the ability to do 4 damage at instant speed by matroning an Incinerator to hand but that seems to be their only other real out).

The one I'm worried about more is Threshold, especially UGw since Swords and Mages (and occassionally Needles) on top of counters are a wrecking ball. How have other people dealt with this matchup? I have 2 MD Pernicious Deeds as well as a stocked wishboard that help deal with a lot of random things but throwing the counter wall on top of everything is tough. I was thinking 4 SB Xantid Swarms since we're already running green. Any other ideas or tips about how to play the matchup?

[Bane of the Living]

Welcome to the source! Cool nick name.
Swarm isnt a bad idea at all if you see alot of thresh in your meta. I do understand your Wasteland concerns, I've started running 5 basics to help out.

[despo]

i am playing this deck for some time now and i must admit i love it

UGW-******** is a problem indeed, but i dont think xantid swarm is the best solution, you can duress or therapy their fow or swords to plowshares. The real problem are meddling mages or pithing needles, so i think your better off with pernicious deed in your sideboard (or mainboard). Game 1 the only solution is to wish for viridian shaman or bone shredder (or innocent blood if they have no other creatures)

[BlindMage]

Depending on what mage named. If they needle/mage the wrong thing (or even if they don't), you can tutor or trinket mage up an aether spellbomb and bounce the offending permanent.

[Bane of the Living]

Bump.

So this deck has been a top 8 monster at Grand Prix Philly, Grand Prix Lille, and now Gencon Worlds. Is it time to pay more serious attention to the underdog of combo? Iggy Pop and Golden Grahams have been bashed and hated out of the source on many occasions. A long time ago Solidarity was hazed and beaten on. Then more people started to play it. People started to pilot it better.

Get on the band wagon.

Here's my new list.

Mana 28
1 Scrublands
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 High Market
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Control 14
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed

Engine 10
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
3 Chromatic Sphere
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Aether Spellbomb

Search/Draw 8
2 Night's Whisper
3 Living Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

Board 15
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Darksteel Colossus
2 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvager
1 Trinket Mage
1 Kjedorian Dead
1 Viridian Shaman

Ive gone and maindecked 2 Deeds. Why not? Vindicate wouldnt work because its too hard to keep the white up for sorc speed removal the turn I should win. If you can get it to work go for it.

[Elfrago]

Guys, do we really need the gamekeeper??
i've brainstormed a little and I've thought that we could use Gift Ungiven fetching for:

Salvager (wich goes to your hand)
LED (to 'yard)
Reanimate (to 'yard)
Recoup (to hand)

Playing Gifts this way in the EOT we can untap and get the combo started, of course we still need a spellbomb for the kill.

By the way, looking at a Type 1 deck wich uses the same combo, I realized 2 things:
-Enginered Explosives , should be in the deck, after comboing we can destroy every sngle permanent with a casting cost from 0 to 5.
-That deck didn't play pyrite for the kill, after comboing out it simply stacked his hand with counters and killed you in the next 2 turns with a full set of Trinket Mages and 3 Salvagers, maybe this is also viable in Legacy.

[Lego]

Guys, do we really need the gamekeeper??
i've brainstormed a little and I've thought that we could use Gift Ungiven

You could do that, but unfortunately it's a bit slower than the Gamekeeper approach (and by a bit, I mean a lot.) You're going to take up about the same amount of room, and leave yourself roughly as vulnerable with that package, and you don't really gain much, except maybe the occasional Meddling Mage naming the wrong thing, and Force of Will (which will probably have to replace some of your discard.)



By the way, looking at a Type 1 deck wich uses the same combo, I realized 2 things:
-Enginered Explosives , should be in the deck, after comboing we can destroy every sngle permanent with a casting cost from 0 to 5.
-That deck didn't play pyrite for the kill, after comboing out it simply stacked his hand with counters and killed you in the next 2 turns with a full set of Trinket Mages and 3 Salvagers, maybe this is also viable in Legacy.

After comboing, there aren't too many permanents that will stop you from winning outright, and those can be dealt with through Pernicious Deeds or Wishing for an answer. And T1 is a very different format than T1.5, so the shaping of the hand thing doesn't work quite as well here. For one thing, your matchup versus Rifter and Train Wreck would become horrible, which is not what you want to happen with a combo deck. Goblins may be able to simply race you in the next couple of turns, or put the game away with some techy Sharpshooter/Siege-Gang action. We might as well include one more card to put the game away now, rather than wait a couple of turns just to insure one less dead card (and for that matter, who plays Trinket Mages in this thing? Who plays any blue at all? What you're talking about seems like Salvagers, not Gamekeeper, which is kind of a different deck entirely.)

[DarkAkuma]

Dont see why this thread isnt more active now after yet another top8 finish in a major tourney.

I've been playing this deck for a few months now (no tourney yet) and i love it. Yet i still dont feel i know all there is to know about the deck, so I would love to see more disscussion on it here.

Anyway. Frankly i'm suprized at the decklist that made #2 at gencon. It was mostly just the original build with a altered land base. No deeds or IT's. But i did find the 4x Infest sideboard interesting. Just must not have been exspecting much rifter there, but tons of goblins.

[Watcher487]

Dont see why this thread isnt more active now after yet another top8 finish in a major tourney.

I've been playing this deck for a few months now (no tourney yet) and i love it. Yet i still dont feel i know all there is to know about the deck, so I would love to see more disscussion on it here.

Anyway. Frankly i'm suprized at the decklist that made #2 at gencon. It was mostly just the original build with a altered land base. No deeds or IT's. But i did find the 4x Infest sideboard interesting. Just must not have been exspecting much rifter there, but tons of goblins.

I really have to question what happened @ GenCon with this deck. From what I can tell he didn't play against Thresh... but he probably played against Truffle Shuffle (aka Thunder Bluf v2.0). The MD looks geared toward Goblins for Game 1 and with the Infests in the side it looks even more geared for Games 2 and 3, but he stated that he didn't see a Needle in any of his Game 1's and he only won by Salvagers... so that makes me question what he actually played against for the entire tourney. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that he did well with the deck but w/ only 1 way to deal with 1 needle both pre and post boarding makes me question what happened in the first place.

[Bane of the Living]

Im suprised he did well with his deck too. My newest build runs Infernal Tutor and it runs so much better with it. Getting extra discard, rituals, gamekeepers, ect. Tainted Pact is out dated.

So Ive also replaced the Darksteel Colossus's in the sideboard with Simic Skyswallower. Hes really good. I cant really decide wether I want him 2nd game all the time just because of Pithing Needle, or only against decks playing Swords to Plowshares.. Has anyone else had testing with SSS?

[DarkAkuma]

Im suprised he did well with his deck too. My newest build runs Infernal Tutor and it runs so much better with it. Getting extra discard, rituals, gamekeepers, ect. Tainted Pact is out dated.

So Ive also replaced the Darksteel Colossus's in the sideboard with Simic Skyswallower. Hes really good. I cant really decide wether I want him 2nd game all the time just because of Pithing Needle, or only against decks playing Swords to Plowshares.. Has anyone else had testing with SSS?

I run IT's as well. The way you play the deck with them is very diffferent, and takes some getting used to, but alot better in the end. I could never stand tainted pact. It often pissed me off more then it helped.

[Anarky87]

So Ive also replaced the Darksteel Colossus's in the sideboard with Simic Skyswallower. Hes really good. I cant really decide wether I want him 2nd game all the time just because of Pithing Needle, or only against decks playing Swords to Plowshares.. Has anyone else had testing with SSS?

I haven't tested it, but it's funny you mentioned that. The other night I was sitting at the table at my friend's house, trading him a Gamekeeper and I mentioned SSS as a possible Keeper target in place of DSC. He's unswordsable, which gives him the nod in my book.

[despo]

I am now testing 2 necrogen spellbomb as additional disruption to improve the thresh match-up, but it only works well in combination with your other disruption.

SSS looks nice , but it is a turn slower then darksteel colossus and it trades with mystic enforcer. I don't know how relevant this is, because i haven't tested it yet. But I don't think it is the right way to approach the thresh match-up, because thresh always will have more creatures and can easily race you. Perhaps the addition of vindicate and perhaps some extra discard (hymn?) in the sideboard is better.
Vindicate is a flexible solution, which can be boarded in against every deck playing troublesome permanents, such as meddling mage, solitary confinement etc, or a weak manabase.
Hymn is just awesome discard. But i am not sure about this spot in the sideboard, it could as well be compost against deadguy ale.
Between hymn, duress, therapy, vindicate and pernicious deed, thresh should have a hard time to keep you from comboing, i hope ;)

[nightshade81]

Vindicate is a flexible solution, which can be boarded in against every deck playing troublesome permanents, such as meddling mage, solitary confinement etc, or a weak manabase.

Confinement shouldn't be a problem, run Orzhov Guildmage in the SB instead of Maga Traitor to Mortals and go inatite wish and win.

Orzhov Guildmage > Maga Traitor to Mortals because it cannot be stifled.

As for the other alt win via Darksteel Colossus vs SSS I'm personaly a fan of Akroma. Akroma kills just as fast as DSC but has vigalince (along with 5 others but vigilance being the most important) and pretty much only swords can remove either. I have yet to test with SSS yet but just saying that Akroma > DSC.

[moxpearl]

Orzhov Guildmage > Maga Traitor to Mortals because it cannot be stifled.


I'm still trying to understand why the Guidemage is better. You only living wish for Maga/Guildmage if either A. you have infinite mana and your spellbomb is RFG, B. you need a beatdown.

On A, you'll have drawn your deck and duressed, therapied, pernicious deeded, shamaned, ronom unicorned, etc. every card in their hand or in play so the specific kill creature is not critical. You could play Bosh or Flamewave Invoker for all it mattered.

However, on B, in the case where you have 8 or so mana in play, Maga can beat down where Orzhov will hog all of your mana and take painfully long to beatdown.

Regarding sideboarded fatties (sss, akroma, dsc), you still are prone to Tormod's crypt hitting your gamekeeper when it hit the yard, so I'm not convinced that the alternative win conditions are better than just keeping Mr. Auriok to do the job and letting Deeds lead the way.

[Watcher487]

I'm still trying to understand why the Guidemage is better. You only living wish for Maga/Guildmage if either A. you have infinite mana and your spellbomb is RFG, B. you need a beatdown.

On A, you'll have drawn your deck and duressed, therapied, pernicious deeded, shamaned, ronom unicorned, etc. every card in their hand or in play so the specific kill creature is not critical. You could play Bosh or Flamewave Invoker for all it mattered.

However, on B, in the case where you have 8 or so mana in play, Maga can beat down where Orzhov will hog all of your mana and take painfully long to beatdown.

Orzhov Guildmage gets you around Glacial Clasm, Karakas, Solitary Confindment, Ivory Mask and Stifle. Orzhov Guildmage is easier to find than Maga and it's also cheaper.

[Bane of the Living]

It might be worth noting that Guildmage is good with 4 mana when you need a blocker or someone to flashback therapy.

[MattH]

It might be worth noting that Guildmage is good with 4 mana when you need a blocker or someone to flashback therapy.

The hell you say? I thin you're thinking of the wrong guildmage.

[Bane of the Living]

The hell you say? I thin you're thinking of the wrong guildmage.

Living Wish + Orzhov Guildmage =1GBB

[MattH]

Oh, it sounded like you were going with Selesnya Guildmage, who, for four mana, DOES make a bunch of chump blockers and tokens-which-are-good-to-sacrifice. Come to think of it, it could even be a win condition if it had to be, making an infinite army a la SquirrelCraft.

But, it would have to wait a turn. Alas! Alack!

What do you think about an Elvish Skysweeper in the board? Useful or not?

[despo]

Elvish skysweeper is completely useless, bone shredder is better at destroying creatures and carrion feeder is better to sac your gamekeeper. Paying 5GGG to sacrifice a gamekeeper and destroy a creature with flying is just way too much when you can win the game for 1GB by getting carrion feeder.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I might be missing something, but why is Tainted Pact better than Plunge Into Darkness in this deck? It's chock full of four-ofs, the Living Wish-Maga plan makes the Pyrite Spellbomb almost superfluous, it's an additional sacrifice outlet and it will never completely whiff. The life loss might be slightly relevant, but it seems to be a lot less relevant than the other points given it's flexibility.

[DarkAkuma]

I might be missing something, but why is Tainted Pact better than Plunge Into Darkness in this deck? It's chock full of four-ofs, the Living Wish-Maga plan makes the Pyrite Spellbomb almost superfluous, it's an additional sacrifice outlet and it will never completely whiff. The life loss might be slightly relevant, but it seems to be a lot less relevant than the other points given it's flexibility.

Not that i'm a fan of Tainted Pact (i preffer Infernal Tutor), but the life loss with PID is just to relivant. You would have to sacrifice to much to make the dig worthwhile. And in my experiance i soak up a bit of damage before i get the combo online, so that makes that lifeloss realy matter.

Also with Tainted Pact, you only dig as far as you need to dig. With PID you have to choose how far you want to dig, and will often end up removeing more cards then you would with TP. Loseing Therapys and any other flashback cards you may run, sucks.

I personaly like Infernal Tutor the most. Great searching for a extra Gamekeeper/Therapy/Duress against counters/swords, and while not as often as could be desired, its often enough that you will be able to empty your hand for hellbent, even without the LED tricks.

And for the DSC vs SSS vs Akroma debates. I realy think it will come down to meta choices. Only thing i can realy say is, its obvious SSS is best against swords (UGW Thres, Angel Stompy, Rifter, Truffle, RW Goblins, etc) compared to DSC and Akroma. The point about a tradeing Mystic Enforcer against your SSS is a good point. But you will certainly see more situations where your creature can be swords then you will see a blocking thresed enforcer.

Ive been paying 2 DSC board till now, but now that ive put some thought into it, i think i might go with 1 SSS and 1 Akroma.

Another point may be that you have a chance in hell of casting SSS when its ends up in hand (with help of a city of brass or sphere) at 7cc, but virtualy none with DSC at 11cc. Akroma at 9cc falls somewhere in between i guess.

Akroma vs DSC... Well they stop Vindicates and Gempalm Incinerators just the same. But Akroma is less likely to have its damage delt to the opp reduced by blockers thanks to flying, and will remain open as a blocker itself stoping piledrivers and other beatsticks. As pointed out it clock is almost the same thanks to the haste. (fetchland damage and opponants blockers can alter the clocks a bit)

Realy, i only see playing DSC if you realy like gaining 11 life from swords rather then only 6 from Akroma, or none from SSS.

[Bane of the Living]

You should really ONLY be boarding in SSS against decks playing Swords. Theres no other reason for him and in all other instances salvagers is the better kill method. Pithing Needle can be played around just fine. Tormods Crypt needs to be played around whether or not your bringing in SSS.

IBA Altho both Tainted Pact and Plunge each dig very deep, and Plunge can sac keeper, Ive found that the cards RFG'd with both cards can really bite you in the ass. Tainted Pact certainly does randomly flip a second copy, Plunge can lose you life.

Infernal Tutor will never fizzle, unless you consider not having hellbent fizzling. Getting extra copies or Duress or Therapy is amazing. Getting additional Gamekeepers is nuts against decks with Swords. IT is the way to go.

[despo]

You should really ONLY be boarding in SSS against decks playing Swords. Theres no other reason for him and in all other instances salvagers is the better kill method. Pithing Needle can be played around just fine. Tormods Crypt needs to be played around whether or not your bringing in SSS.


I have found pithing needle much more of a problem than swords, because they have to keep swords in their hand until your salvagers hit the table, which means it is vulnerable to duress and therapy, needle on the other hand can be played turn one (game 2-3) and is much harder to remove, because when they find a second one, it probably goes to pernicious deed. I think i will always side in SSS against decks playing needle combined with other forms of disruption (don't count tormod's crypt, because it can be easily played around, especially with the new split-second disenchant in time spiral)

About infernal tutor: it is way better than any other alternative, this card has won me so many games, which couldn't be possible with tainted pact or plunge into darkness. For those who aren't convinced: just try it out and see that getting the card you want is better than hoping to have that card in the first few cards of your deck.


Something else: how do you play against *****? Do you mulligan to a quick hand or is it better to play with a hand full of disruption? I found this matchup nearly unwinnable, unless you get very lucky.

[CleverPetriDish]

This deck continues to pop up in the top 8 despite almost no one playing it. It is the only non-storm combo deck that ever seems to place. We all know the cards in it - they don't really change much. Doesn't that make it a deck to beat or something?

BTW, Lotus Bloom negates the whole ditch you hand problem of LED. Has anyone tested eith this?

[quicksilver]

This deck continues to pop up in the top 8 despite almost no one playing it. It is the only non-storm combo deck that ever seems to place. We all know the cards in it - they don't really change much. Doesn't that make it a deck to beat or something?

BTW, Lotus Bloom negates the whole ditch you hand problem of LED. Has anyone tested eith this?

too bad lotus bloom does not combo with slavagers.

The reason this is not a deck to beat is although it has showed up in a few top 8s, it is not played very much. It is played so little that people do not play it in a testing gauntlet and do not prepare for it (if they did this deck would die quickly since it is very easy to hate). So although it may make some top 8s, it is not a deck to beat since the chances of playing against it are very slim.

[CleverPetriDish]

OK, thanks and thanks.

I have been set strait.

[Bane of the Living]

Wow Dave, thats officially the worst reason Ive ever heard for Salvagers to not be a deck to beat. Why dont we just say thats its because it was created on TMD??

Two to three people play this deck weekly at my store and one usually top 4's with it. Go to Morphling.de and look at all the Salvagers winnings. A 'few' top 8's is more like 'consistant' top 8's. Until more Legacy Adepts start picking up this deck we will not see it in the LMF. IMO this is a deck to beat and I've been saying it for months now. Only more tournament standings will continue to argue the deck into the holy light of the source.

Until then, may salvagers game not be a DTB because..
It is played so little that people do not play it in a testing gauntlet and do not prepare for it.

Lets be sure not to test against Salvagers so we keep getting the reach around from it. Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away.

[/sarcasm]

[quicksilver]

Wow Dave, thats officially the worst reason Ive ever heard for Salvagers to not be a deck to beat. Why dont we just say thats its because it was created on TMD??

Two to three people play this deck weekly at my store and one usually top 4's with it. Go to Morphling.de and look at all the Salvagers winnings. A 'few' top 8's is more like 'consistant' top 8's. Until more Legacy Adepts start picking up this deck we will not see it in the LMF. IMO this is a deck to beat and I've been saying it for months now. Only more tournament standings will continue to argue the deck into the holy light of the source.

Until then, may salvagers game not be a DTB because..

Lets be sure not to test against Salvagers so we keep getting the reach around from it. Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away.

[/sarcasm]


Literally I have never ever played against this deck in a tournement. In fact, I don't think I know of anyone who played against this deck in a tournement. A deck being widely played is a long standing criteria of a DTB. And this deck simply does not meet that criteria. When considering the prevelance of a deck we do not just look at how many top 8's it is in. In fact we look at the precentage of the field it makes up when going into a tournement. This deck just does not put up the numbers, not even close.



Lets be sure not to test against Salvagers so we keep getting the reach around from it. Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away.
Personally I cannot justify, nor would I recommened to anyone, testing aganist a deck, and modifying your deck to beat it when there is only about a 1 in 100 chance of playing against it. There is simply more prevelant things that you should be worried about.

[Watcher487]

Well considering that my personal opinion doesn't really count for much, I would consider this a DtB. But the problem that really holds it back, in my honest opinion is the fact that no one can get a set decklist for this.

If the following things are cleared up this deck could be a hell of alot better...

1. Tainted Pact engine or no Tainted Pact:
This is the biggest thing that makes a literal difference with everyone. Philly, Lille and Champs had the engine but it is inconsistant with so many people on these boards. The reason that this is an issue is due to Infernal Tutor and what that brings to the table.

2. Blue or no Blue:
This here is a personal issue really with the deck that I have found to be better overall especially with the ability to just flat out tutor for anything (Lim-Dul's Vault) and have a better draw (Brainstorm) especially with the high amount of shuffle/mill effects that are currently in the deck.

3. Pithing Needle/Disruptive problems:
It has been said over and over again that the deck needs an answer to Pithing Needle. What hasn't been talked about is the fact that this deck loses to a fast Chalice for 1 with aggro back up. Chalice for 1 takes out so much of the deck that it doesn't matter that you can have an infinite amount of mana when you don't have the draw effects/main kill condition to win with it. The deck needs to play with either Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives MD.

4. Sideboard Win Conditions:
This has been a real pain in the butt lately especially with the suggestion lately to continue to play Maga in the SB as opposed to Orzy Guildmage. The other problem lies with the switch over board of either Darksteel OMG, Simic's big boy or Akroma, angel of Pwnage.

[quicksilver]

Just a quick breakdown using the historical top8 thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3996) and we can see a breakdown of the most popular decks in the top8.

Goblins: 26
Gro: 25
Landstill: 14
Solidarity: 12
Angel Stompy: 8
Suvival: 7
Dead Guy: 6
Rifter/wombat: 5
Affinity: 4
Zoo: 3
Burn: 3
Salvagers Game:3


As you can see as for top 8's, Salvagers game is still signifigantly less than the other DTB's top 8's. With only 3 top 8's, while decks like goblins have 26, gro with 25, and solidarity with 12. So even if you were to look at its top 8 preformace, it still does not qualify a DTB. There are still many non-DTB that have better preformance records.

[CavernNinja]

Well considering that my personal opinion doesn't really count for much, I would consider this a DtB. But the problem that really holds it back, in my honest opinion is the fact that no one can get a set decklist for this.

Get about 200 times as many people who play it now playing it down the road and it can be considered for DtB status. One of the three large sticking points for a DtB is that is is very prevalent in the metagame. Guess what? Nothing running the Gamekeeper engine in prevalent, it has never topped 5% of the field in a major tournament. 5% is a very small number.

[Bane of the Living]

Yet even tho such a small % of players will bring the deck to a tournament, it does amazingly well, and finds itself in top 8's more often than most other rogue decks. Compare the amount of goblin decks played to the number put into top 8 and see that its success rate does not match salvagers. This deck only needs more attention, just as it always has. Even Solidarity had to fight tooth and nail to get itself into DTB. Im sure with more time people will move away from Solidarity and to other forms of combo. This deck will reach the LMF, we'll just need a bunch of Legacy Adepts to start playing, realize how good it is, and they'll put it there.

If your meta has caught on to Salvager Game then you should consider it a DTB in your personal meta. More people will surely discover the deck and you will see it more often.

Quicksilver Id be more than glad to play some MWS games with you, and prove its success more than a fluke.

[Phantom]

As you can see as for top 8's, Salvagers game is still signifigantly less than the other DTB's top 8's. With only 3 top 8's, while decks like goblins have 26, gro with 25, and solidarity with 12. So even if you were to look at its top 8 preformace, it still does not qualify a DTB. There are still many non-DTB that have better preformance records.

In addition to the lack of players playing it, I think the debate for this deck (and I won't comment on whether it's right or wrong) is that it T8'd the 3 biggest tourneys on that list (actually, I'm just assuming they were the biggest).

[Tacosnape]

3. Pithing Needle/Disruptive problems:
It has been said over and over again that the deck needs an answer to Pithing Needle. What hasn't been talked about is the fact that this deck loses to a fast Chalice for 1 with aggro back up. Chalice for 1 takes out so much of the deck that it doesn't matter that you can have an infinite amount of mana when you don't have the draw effects/main kill condition to win with it. The deck needs to play with either Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives MD.

4. Sideboard Win Conditions:
This has been a real pain in the butt lately especially with the suggestion lately to continue to play Maga in the SB as opposed to Orzy Guildmage. The other problem lies with the switch over board of either Darksteel OMG, Simic's big boy or Akroma, angel of Pwnage.

I do like Tainted Pact and I don't like Blue, but that's getting to be a matter of preference. Clearly the deck can do well in either situation.

The biggest 3 cards I hear people complain about are Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, and Tormod's Crypt. They all disrupt the deck pretty bad. Engineered Explosives can't kill a Chalice and a Needle, or a Crypt and a Needle. What about Seeds of Innocence in the sideboard? 3 Mana, sweep every problem card in existence off the board?

Also, I've been sticking a Cabal Pit as a Living Wish target in order to get rid of Meddling Mage.

Are alternate-kill fatties actually necessary? Or can you just commit to having more resources to stop the disruption, Like Deed/Seeds? (Hee. That Rhymed.)

[DarkAkuma]

Well considering that my personal opinion doesn't really count for much, I would consider this a DtB. But the problem that really holds it back, in my honest opinion is the fact that no one can get a set decklist for this.

If the following things are cleared up this deck could be a hell of alot better...

1. Tainted Pact engine or no Tainted Pact:
This is the biggest thing that makes a literal difference with everyone. Philly, Lille and Champs had the engine but it is inconsistant with so many people on these boards. The reason that this is an issue is due to Infernal Tutor and what that brings to the table.

2. Blue or no Blue:
This here is a personal issue really with the deck that I have found to be better overall especially with the ability to just flat out tutor for anything (Lim-Dul's Vault) and have a better draw (Brainstorm) especially with the high amount of shuffle/mill effects that are currently in the deck.

3. Pithing Needle/Disruptive problems:
It has been said over and over again that the deck needs an answer to Pithing Needle. What hasn't been talked about is the fact that this deck loses to a fast Chalice for 1 with aggro back up. Chalice for 1 takes out so much of the deck that it doesn't matter that you can have an infinite amount of mana when you don't have the draw effects/main kill condition to win with it. The deck needs to play with either Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives MD.

4. Sideboard Win Conditions:
This has been a real pain in the butt lately especially with the suggestion lately to continue to play Maga in the SB as opposed to Orzy Guildmage. The other problem lies with the switch over board of either Darksteel OMG, Simic's big boy or Akroma, angel of Pwnage.

Acctualy, the bigger problem stoping this deck from gaining more popularity is theres not enough room for variation, not that theres to much. Theres not enough disscussion going on here about this deck cause mot anything you do to it changes it drasticly.

Tainted Pact vs Infernal Tutor and Darksteel Colosuss vs Simic Sky Swallower are about the only realistic things being discussed here for variation. Ive never seen any talk about a blue splash (i may have missed a page of this thread), and dont even like the idea of it. Deck is has enough colors in it allready, and just doesent need it.

Deeds seems to be a widely agreed apon to take care of the problematic cards of the deck. Only problem id see with it, would be that a wishable option would be more ideal if it existed. Ive personaly been considering one of my old favorite cards, Crypt Rats as a creature sweeper. But that doesent take out the problematic artifacts at all. Sex Monkeys just isnt enough. So 1-2 main deck deeds seems to be best with Infernal Tutor. Would probly have to play 3-4 with Tainted Pact.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I was thinking about the problem of Tormods Crypt for this deck and I decided that since I play Trinket Mage in my wishboard, Im throwing 1 Pithing Needle into my maindeck. This is purely a meta call because EVERY deck in my meta plays crypt (my meta has 3-4 thresh and 3-4 salvagers regularly, then theres about 3-4 other random graveyard abusing decks). Just a suggestion for anyone who fears the crypt.

[tomjulioo]

i haven't read the topic entirely but i wondered why snow covered lands...

thanks

tomjulioo's 1st post here :tongue:

[Tacosnape]

i haven't read the topic entirely but i wondered why snow covered lands...

Snow-covered lands reduce the chance of you hitting two of the same land on a Tainted Pact. They're completely irrelevant in builds running Infernal Tutor instead.

And I still think Seeds of Innocence is solid as a solution to Crypt/Needle/Chalice.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Are alternate-kill fatties actually necessary? Or can you just commit to having more resources to stop the disruption, Like Deed/Seeds? (Hee. That Rhymed.)

The alternate kills are in there to get around StP, but the only fatty I see worth using is SSS. He never goes farming, EVER. Thats pretty boss.

[moxpearl]

And I still think Seeds of Innocence is solid as a solution to Crypt/Needle/Chalice.

The deck has a minimum 7 wish targets (salvagers, gamekeeper, multicolor land, infinite life loss creature, artifact killing creature, enchantment killing creature, sacrificing creature or land.) Thus, you only have 8 real sideboard cards.

I think Pernicious Deed is better than Seeds, because it will kill creatures in addition to the artifacts. It also doesn't have to wait until the permanents are in play. Deed kills Pyrostatic Pillar. Deed even kills your Gamekeeper if needed. Now, sure you can run both Deed and Seeds, but I run 4 Deed in my board leaving me only 4 slots left which I'd rather use for Infest, Hymn, or cards to improve the matchup against Hide Tide.


The alternate kills are in there to get around StP, but the only fatty I see worth using is SSS. He never goes farming, EVER. Thats pretty boss.
I agree. I just wonder if SSS is even worth it, because it creates a long 3-4 turn clock, at which point, I wonder if you can better get Deed to clear the board for the Salvagers win. More people have to start playing this deck so we have some more tournament reports to review.

[Palefire]

I am working on a primer with the developer of the deck over on TMD, I hope to have it finished in the next couple of weeks and submit it to SCG for online publication. It's fairly exhaustive, covering every conceivable card you would want to include in the MD and SB as well as the "one definitive list" and "man plan" conundrums.

One of the issues that bothers me the most is, why do you people think that one list is optimal? This deck doesn't have one list, it is a modular deck that can easily be tailored to your metagame, but every one seems to think that because the deck doesn't have one list it is some how inferior to decks that do. This is an irrational mentality Magic players have, and I want to address it in my article.

So, in short, why does a deck have to have one list in order to be good, and if a deck does have one list, how does making your deck "stadardized" and eliminating any element of surprise beneficial to you rather than your opponent?

[Bane of the Living]

Most of the decks are only different by 5 cards or so. The biggest difference being the tutor choice. This is clearly preference and should remain so in the public eye. Watcher is the only one who plays the blue splash and it has merit in his playstyle. Thats why this is a fun deck to play.

I would like to conclude the use of Cabal Pit to be less then stellar. In every game we wished for it we never had the thresh to k.o. a Meddling Mage. Very disappointing.

I wanted to know what people thought of Phyrexian Negator in the sideboard. Hes a sweet wish target because he's a clock that can potentially kill the keeper. If your aggro opponent wont kill keeper wish for Negator and put a clock on them. Does this sound promising to anyone? It could replace Keljorean Dead. Just leave High Market as a wish target to be safe.

[quicksilver]

I would like to conclude the use of Cabal Pit to be less then stellar. In every game we wished for it we never had the thresh to k.o. a Meddling Mage. Very disappointing.

What about bone shredder as a wish target to handle anything problematic such as meddling mage, can also hit your own gamekeeper I guess.

[Bane of the Living]

We've been using Shredder for a while now, but figured pit should be tried since it is an uncounterable option. Most people will let wish resolve, thus making pit a feasable trump.

[Watcher487]

I am working on a primer with the developer of the deck over on TMD, I hope to have it finished in the next couple of weeks and submit it to SCG for online publication. It's fairly exhaustive, covering every conceivable card you would want to include in the MD and SB as well as the "one definitive list" and "man plan" conundrums.

One of the issues that bothers me the most is, why do you people think that one list is optimal? This deck doesn't have one list, it is a modular deck that can easily be tailored to your metagame, but every one seems to think that because the deck doesn't have one list it is some how inferior to decks that do. This is an irrational mentality Magic players have, and I want to address it in my article.

So, in short, why does a deck have to have one list in order to be good, and if a deck does have one list, how does making your deck "stadardized" and eliminating any element of surprise beneficial to you rather than your opponent?

An archtype needs the 'one definitive list' so it can be sold to the masses. With people bickering back and forth over "Tainted Pact is soo amazing, I don't know why you losers play Infernal Tutor it suxkors" and crap like that. People actually sometimes read posts like that and with people going the same way for the opposite of that statement.

Now yeah there is always room for variations when it comes to decks such as this but with 12 people playing the same deck, your not going to have the same version within 6-8 cards of each other normally, especially versions that follow the old 'The Game' deck list to the T.


Watcher is the only one who plays the blue splash and it has merit in his playstyle.

Thanks but I still haven't seen the reason why not to play w/o the splash yet. No one deck has 'disrupted' my mana base, both off and on-line. And if there actually comes a time when it does happen I board in 3 Teferi's Response and 2 Life from the Loam and wreck them hard.

[scutakicker]

I'm glad people are posting on this again because I think its probably the most fun deck to play in the format. Comments:

Defense Grid and extra P Deeds have been my go to sideboard answers. Grid is amazing because it helps against control and Solidarity, both of which are iffy matchups.

I've like Phyrexian Tower over High Market since the extra mana is occassionally what will let you combo that turn rather than pass.

Have people seen the new Star? Essentially a Chromatic Sphere reprint that will let you better optimize for Tainted Pact. I like PID myself (since the aggro matchup is already well in our favor), but have considered throwing one of these in to help prevent fizzling due to lack of a cantripping artifact in the yard.

I've also found 2-3 Lotus Petals really help the deck on speed, but I'm unsure about giving up the space for other things.

[Kyachi]

I'm not sure about the lotus petal idea, but the phyrexian tower sounds pretty solid.

I've been running a Gigapede in my board to combat swords, or heavy countermagic. I was running into a deal of u/w solution, so I thought I'd toss in something recurring. Seems better than Negator to me...

[despo]

I used to play four lotus petal and they worked really well, turn 1 gamekeeper is amazing against anything that looks like aggro and they allow you to keep a land-light hand. (i once won a game after my only land got wasted thanks to the petals :)

The most fun part of the petals is that they allow a wide variety of turn one kills, unfortenately they all involve at least six cards. Be aware of force of will on the play and swords to plowshares and daze on the draw (but i dont need to tell this to anyone)

[Watcher487]

Guys is it really nessicary to actually pull the turn 1 kill? Considering the fact that the mana base usually ranges from 16-19 land (w/ a decent amount of duals) is it worth it to add that much one time mana acceleration to the deck?

The format is slow/fast enough that you can just play discard for the first 1-2 turns and just win when they tap out to cast something important. Yeah board control and some control matchups can be a problem but it's not like you sit there and do nothing for 3-5 turns.

[Kyachi]

True. The control elements of this deck help it to be one of the more stable ones in the format. Its fine to wait to combo until you're:

A) Set up to do so.

B) Sure that your opponent doesn't have anything to wreck your looping.


In the 5 months that I've been playing this deck, I think I've managed to draw a turn one win once, and I was one the draw for that. This deck doesn't need or necessarily want any more speed. You lose too much protection.

[Palefire]

To clear some things up,

Tainted Pact is the tutor to use for this deck, I have seen people use Infernal Tutor and it is just wrong for several reasons. First, Infernal Tutor is tempo loss when it is used to search for a copy of a card in your hand, because you will usually search for a copy of disruption, at which point Hymn to Tourach would have been a better choice. Second, Infernal Tutor does not find you your third land, which is critical to harcasting Gamekeeper and fighting against the LD of B/W and Goblins. Third, it really has very little synergy in the deck despite LED, unless you have a Cabal Therapy in the graveyard using Inferal Tutor and LED to find and cast Gamekeeper is a very weak play vs Aggro-Control and company

Blue is bad, it gives you tutors and cantrips, both of which you have in abundance from black. You are including 8 cards in your MD to make blue worth it, Intuition and Brainstorm, and in the process you are destroying your manabase. The only 4th color that deserves any consideration is red, because it allows you to play with 4 Prite Spellbomb instead of 4 Chromatic Sphere, which greatly improves your goldfish rate, B/W and U/G/W match up.

Cabal Pit is a 2x MD card if you decide to use it, it differentiates your targets for Tainted Pact, gives you 2 additional outlets and answers to Meddling Mage.

If you want Wishable disruption for Swords to Plowshares you are probably better off with Xantid Swam, because it's cheaper and protects you against High Tide as well. But usually speaking you are just better off getting the Gamekeeper in the board and saving the space.

[Bane of the Living]

To clear some things up,

Tainted Pact is the tutor to use for this deck, I have seen people use Infernal Tutor and it is just wrong for several reasons. First, Infernal Tutor is tempo loss when it is used to search for a copy of a card in your hand, because you will usually search for a copy of disruption, at which point Hymn to Tourach would have been a better choice. Second, Infernal Tutor does not find you your third land, which is critical to harcasting Gamekeeper and fighting against the LD of B/W and Goblins. Third, it really has very little synergy in the deck despite LED, unless you have a Cabal Therapy in the graveyard using Inferal Tutor and LED to find and cast Gamekeeper is a very weak play vs Aggro-Control and company


Are you high? Of course thats a good play against aggro. Maybe you just need to try Infernal Tutor because its obvious everything you say is speculation. Tainted Pact is a slow as balls card that doesnt have as much power with LED as IT. Tainted Pact makes cards rfg, and it sometimes fizzles. Not too mention it can never straight up tutor a card out of your deck. Infernal can. Searching for a copy of anything is amazing. Copying disruption is great but copying Dark Ritual will constantly win you games. Copying Gamekeeper really shores up control matchups. You might be watching people play badly with IT, but thats the player not the card. I win games with it.

[DarkAkuma]

Are you high? ...

Good point!

I agree with everything bane just said. Ive played both Tainted Pact and Infernal Tutor, and ive found IT to be superior. IT sounds worse in theroy, until you play with it... A deck with 4x Tainted Pact plays totaly differently then a deck with 4x Infernal Tutor, so i can easily see smeone sucking with the deck and giveing themselves/someone else a bad impression. I myself sucked after the change too. I dont remember exactly what i realized that made playing it better, but it was probly when i realized i have to not think of it as a Demonic Tutor only and stop focusing on just getting Hellbent. Getting Hellbent happens enough if it isnt you sole goal. I also sucked with the deck when i played it like a combo deck with some discard/control backup, and it got ALOT better when i started thinking of it more like a discard/control deck with a combo kill.

[Bane of the Living]

I also sucked with the deck when i played it like a combo deck with some discard/control backup, and it got ALOT better when i started thinking of it more like a discard/control deck with a combo kill.

I think thats a problem alot of people experience when they pick up this deck. It seems to be one of the things naysayers dont get either.

I forgot about Phyrexian Tower, we were playing it as a one of in the maindeck with High Market in the sb as a wish target. Tower can be randomly good but it cant be tutored out. Its just a test card.

[Watcher487]

Blue is bad, it gives you tutors and cantrips, both of which you have in abundance from black. You are including 8 cards in your MD to make blue worth it, Intuition and Brainstorm, and in the process you are destroying your manabase. The only 4th color that deserves any consideration is red, because it allows you to play with 4 Prite Spellbomb instead of 4 Chromatic Sphere, which greatly improves your goldfish rate, B/W and U/G/W match up.

Actually Bane this is where I think he is high.

Blue actually gives you 2 huge things. In the Main Deck you get the meandeck standby of Brainstorm and Lim-Dul's Vault. Brainstorm replaces Night's Whisper which has been problematic for several people especially since the loss of 2 life can make or break a game especially if your setting up the combo. This also allow you to reshuffle unnessicary cards back into the deck considering the higher number of shuffle effects that I play. Lim-Dul's Vault is an even sweeter deal than Tainted Pact as it also allows you to adjust the top 5 of your library as well and just in case if you don't want that top 5 you can just do it all over again just for 1 life. Normally unless you are playing a singleton answer that you need immediatly you usually just end up paying 3-4 life and you set up the next turn kill at the end of your opponents turn.

With the Sideboard you pick up the 3-4 for 1 in TEFERI'S RESPONSE read the damn card kids, it's god damn amazing.

While Red doesn't do crap for you, your looking to drop 4 color helpers to add in 3 more spellbombs. That doesn't improve your goldfish rate at all, because the Spheres let you draw a card as well.

SIDE NOTE: I have almost dropped White from the deck, the obvious exception being the 2 Auroik Salvagers MD and the 1 in the board. And while yes I still do play with the Plains and the other corresponding dual lands to actually get that mana is it actually sound to consider this deck actually not a 3 color (G/B/W) / 4 color (G/B/W/U) deck but instead a 2 color (G/B) / 3 color (G/B/U) deck?

[Benie Bederios]

I think blue isn't a card to splash for Salvager Game. If you want to play him I suggest loosing green and play Gifts Ungiven. It sets up the same way as Gamekeeper. But I doubt it will be better than BGw Salvager Game.

As for Tutors I really don't know wich one is better. I like Tainted Pact more because it is never dead and good against control. You don't have to empty your hand for the Hellbent. On the other side, with all the handdisrutption it is quite possible to nuke your opponents hand so your not afraid of counters. Next to that most disruption is proactive so emptying your hand is not to hard too.

The other reason I chose for Tainted Pact is that the deck already played Living Wish. Normally I used LED in combination with Wish against non-counterdecks. And if you use Infernal Tutor you have to cards that are da bomb against non-counterdecks, and with Tainted Pact just 4. Also if you don't find a the needed card with Pact you just removed some cards from the game, you didn't need anyway( if you play him correct.)

So if you need to be fast I should play Infernal Tutor, but if you want to be controlling I'd go for Tainted Pact. So the question is: what wants this deck to be, a control deck with a fast kill, or a combo deck with lots of disruption.

[Watcher487]

I think blue isn't a card to splash for Salvager Game. If you want to play him I suggest loosing green and play Gifts Ungiven. It sets up the same way as Gamekeeper. But I doubt it will be better than BGw Salvager Game.

I just fixed that just incase my original point wasn't obvious.


Blue actually gives you 2 huge things. In the Main Deck you get the meandeck standby of Brainstorm and Lim-Dul's Vault. Brainstorm replaces Night's Whisper which has been problematic for several people especially since the loss of 2 life can make or break a game especially if your setting up the combo. This also allow you to reshuffle unnessicary cards back into the deck considering the higher number of shuffle effects that I play. Lim-Dul's Vault is an even sweeter deal than Tainted Pact as it also allows you to adjust the top 5 of your library as well and just in case if you don't want that top 5 you can just do it all over again just for 1 life. Normally unless you are playing a singleton answer that you need immediatly you usually just end up paying 3-4 life and you set up the next turn kill at the end of your opponents turn.

I still play Gamekeeper and Living Wish in the deck. And to spite what you think no has really put any time into B/G/U/w version of this deck but me, and all I get is people who think it's worse or think that it is not worth the hassle.

Gifts is crap due to the fact that you will probably have to end up casting the Salvagers regardless of when you cast Gifts. So that slows you down 1-3 turns, bad idea. And losing Green makes you lose 3 very big things Living Wish, Pernicious Deed and Speed. If you want to roll without that your better off playing Bomberman.

Mind everyone I'm not runing Blue as a main color I'm just running it for 3 Brainstorm and 3 Lim-Dul's Vault MD with 3 Teferi's Response and 1 Trinket Mage in the board. And when I board in the Responses I usually take out the Brainstorms. There is no reason other than lunacy to make blue higher than that, there are too many things that can go wrong if you do that.

[Palefire]

Are you high? Of course thats a good play against aggro. Maybe you just need to try Infernal Tutor because its obvious everything you say is speculation. Tainted Pact is a slow as balls card that doesnt have as much power with LED as IT. Tainted Pact makes cards rfg, and it sometimes fizzles. Not too mention it can never straight up tutor a card out of your deck. Infernal can. Searching for a copy of anything is amazing. Copying disruption is great but copying Dark Ritual will constantly win you games. Copying Gamekeeper really shores up control matchups. You might be watching people play badly with IT, but thats the player not the card. I win games with it.

First, before attemting to undermine another individual's argument, you should actually read the remarks you bolded. Second, Aggro is not Aggro-Control, hence your entire counter point is moot, using Infernal Tutor with a Lion's Eye Diamond for Gamekeeper is a poor play against Aggro-Control, a deck that is going to have a compliment of Force of Will, Counterspell, Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needle, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage and Tormod's Crypt post-board; do you want to be in a position where all you have is a Gamekeeper on the board and no hand vs a deck that has to tap a single Tundra to end the game? Third, Infernal Tutor doesn't improve your difficult match ups, the last thing you need is a card that "wins more" vs Aggro, what you need is a card that is a reliable tutor for any card in your deck at any time and more importantly a card that can build your manabase. Fourth, "I win games with it" is not an argument; I win games with Elf.dec, that doesn't meen it's an advisable archetype for 1.5. Fifth, I have more hours on MWS and Apprentice with this deck than quite possibly any other non-German I am aware of, I predicted the deck would Top 8 at Gencon and it did, I have played the deck since its inception and I am writing a primer with the creator of the deck. I assure you, the "you may just suck" argument does not apply.

Furthermore, people who use blue in this deck have no sense of mana management, blue requires the deck to expose its manabase to Wastelands and thus lose games for cards that have no function that can't be provided by a card in the deck's main color. Chromatic Sphere isn't necessary in the deck, if you properly build your manabase and understand when and where to use your fetchlands you have no need to cycle your colors, and instead you can afford to replace a superflous card with a card that also cantrips and can be used to kill your Gamekeeper or a Meddling Mage; even the deck's inventor agreed with this decision.

Lastly, Gamekeeper/Salvagers is not a combo deck in the traditional sense, you should be playing it as board control with a combo finish. Every other role is strictly wrong, unless an opportunity presents itself for you to combo out unhindered or you are forced to Living Wish for Kagemaro, Indrik or Minion of the Wastes and beat down for the win.

[Watcher487]

Making this deck a 'board control, combo deck' is the wrong way to handle things. This deck does mold into several different styles of play especially considering the original build of the deck (AKA The Game) some 2 years ago. Sure the deck does have ways to actually win on Turn 2-3, but as you have said you really only want to do this when you know you can go off (non-counterdeck / Aggro). But just like Iggy-Pop, you can just sit back against stuff like Thresh and sculpt a hand while they attempt to kill you. Your goldfish should actually get worse considering that w/ 4 Chromatic Sphere and 1 Pyrite Spellbomb, I have 1 more option than your 4 Pyrite Spellbomb.

SIDE NOTE: Why would you actually want to cut Chromatic Sphere? It draws you a card at worst which is actually good since it replaces itself and 1 mana.


Furthermore, people who use blue in this deck have no sense of mana management, blue requires the deck to expose its manabase to Wastelands and thus lose games for cards that have no function that can't be provided by a card in the deck's main color.

It's actually just me making that statement. And with more of you actually not thinking about what it can give as opposed to what I have been playing, makes me a sad panda.


Third, Infernal Tutor doesn't improve your difficult match ups, the last thing you need is a card that "wins more" vs Aggro, what you need is a card that is a reliable tutor for any card in your deck at any time and more importantly a card that can build your manabase.

And since when do they not counter the Tainted Pact? Is that because you have cards in your hand? Do you normally attempt to win when you cast Tainted Pact? Infernal Tutor does 2 very important things that some people are missing here.

1. It allows you to get a copy of a card currently in your hand. This is actually a good thing especally against control where you can get a second Duress, Cabal Threapy, Living Wish, Gamekeeper or Salvager. All of these has the ability to set up a kill or force your opponent to counter more stuff than they have the ability too.

2. It can be a Demonic Tutor mid-game. Normally I don't have 4-5 cards in hand by turn 4. I'm usually attempting to rip my opponent's hand to shreds while making my hand better.

There should be no serious reason for this deck to go aggro. Against control they will still have answers to creatures, espeically since your combo is creature based. Slowing down the deck means you are now going to have to find more serious ways to deal with Combo (Solidarity, Iggy-Pop and lets not forget Salvagers)



Here's my current list. Bash it all you want, I have positive records against Solidarity, Goblins and Thresh with this pile.

3 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Innocent Blood
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Brainstorm
3 Gamekeeper
4 Living Wish
2 Auriok Salvagers

1 Bayou
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains


Fifth, I have more hours on MWS and Apprentice with this deck than quite possibly any other non-German I am aware of, I predicted the deck would Top 8 at Gencon and it did, I have played the deck since its inception and I am writing a primer with the creator of the deck. I assure you, the "you may just suck" argument does not apply.

That's great that you have played this deck alot. What we are actually pissed at is that you assume that we know nothing about this deck. I haven't seen the "you may just suck" except from you. And who gives about what you predicted?

I played this deck before Philly even before you guys were talking about it over at TMD when it won at the GPT @ Conn and @ Missouri or wherever. Now, I don't know every little detail about the deck but to just flat out say that we are wrong and not defend yourself except for:


I assure you, the "you may just suck" argument does not apply.

Now I'm trying to be nice here (I'm sorry if I come off too strong) but please tell me why you think your version is better (at least a little better than you have) or at least post it so we can actually see it.

[Tash]

I played this deck before Philly even before you guys were talking about it over at TMD when it won at the GPT @ Conn and @ Missouri or wherever.

Alright, sorry. I have to jump in here and give my 2 cents.

First off, the first showing of Golden Grahams was in the GPT in Louisville, KY on September 10th 2005, it got third place.

Second off, the next showing of Golden Grahams was in the GPT in Indianapolis, IN. In that event it got 1st place, which really was a split with Landstill in the finals.

I doubt anyone was playing the deck before we were talking about it over at TMD because, I was the one that started posting things over there about it.

With all of that said, I love seeing discussion about this deck. When I built it a year ago to play in a GPT, I never actually thought that people on the internet would argue over card choices that I made, and card choices I didn't make. I didn't realize that Paul Serengese, Max Bracht, and Thomas Lee would take it and make it known. And I sure as hell never would have guessed that a year after the fact, the deck is considered a tier one deck by some people.

</sappy speech>

[Watcher487]

Alright, sorry. I have to jump in here and give my 2 cents.

First off, the first showing of Golden Grahams was in the GPT in Louisville, KY on September 10th 2005, it got third place.

Second off, the next showing of Golden Grahams was in the GPT in Indianapolis, IN. In that event it got 1st place, which really was a split with Landstill in the finals.

I doubt anyone was playing the deck before we were talking about it over at TMD because, I was the one that started posting things over there about it.

With all of that said, I love seeing discussion about this deck. When I built it a year ago to play in a GPT, I never actually thought that people on the internet would argue over card choices that I made, and card choices I didn't make. I didn't realize that Paul Serengese, Max Bracht, and Thomas Lee would take it and make it known. And I sure as hell never would have guessed that a year after the fact, the deck is considered a tier one deck by some people.

</sappy speech>

I apologize for the Missouri bit but it did place at least in the T4 at Tom Shea's GPT in Conn, mind everyone it was the same basis as everyone elses but it was a slower approach than what came out at Philly and after.

I don't think it was what you played that has the most agruments with most of the crowd here. You have to remember this was over a year ago when you made your version. The problem that alot of people have here is that so many people are literally keeping the deck the same card for card compared to your build, and also not at all considering other ideas from people, especially on these boards.

I'm not saying that I made or invented this deck here. That is for Mike Keller (Hollywood) over here for building the basis of the deck, with yourself Tash for what you help develop from that basis and Mr. Serengese for playing the deck to a T8 finish at Philly, but please do not count out other people who just didn't think it was worth the time just not putting it on the 'internet'.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2627&page=3

Look at Post 46 and 47. Screw that just look at the whole thread... if your looking to slow down the deck this is probably the best way to do it.

[Bane of the Living]

Palefire all you've done is started up your source account and come into the one thread you know more than nothing about, to say we're all wrong. Because.. We dont play your version. Excuse me sir but stfu. You dont even have your chicken shit list on here. So dont go telling us all where we go wrong because we've changed our list off the creators. Whom you dont even name.

Tainted Pact was printed before IT. We here at the source, with the exception of you, have since moved on, evolved. Infernal Tutor is proven to work better for all of us but you. But whatever, you play Tainted Pact. Be happy with it.

And just so you know, an Aggro-Control deck, is still an Aggro deck.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Infernal Tutor is better than Tainted Pact because of the synergy with LED, which really is the whole point of the deck. Palefire you really make it sound like you dont know what your doing when you play this. This deck is combo, no matter how you look at it. The point of the deck is to win using the combo as fast as you can. Sounds like the point of Solidarity, IGGy-pop, and Belcher. Those are all combo decks too.

[Tash]

if your looking to slow down the deck this is probably the best way to do it.

Woah nelly. Let's not misinterpret what Tash here has said.

It has never been my intentions to slow down this deck.

Also, if I come off with a holier-than-thou attitude, then forgive me. For it is not my intention.

I love IT, it served me well time and time again in testing, but, there were times when I found that it was bad.

Yes, it's good when it finds a second cabal therapy. I love those times when I cast a duress and then 2 cabal therapy.

There are sadly times, though, when it's not so hot. For example, when you have 2 lands in hand, you don't want to get another land. Or when you have another IT in hand. That's really the stains right there.

The synergy between LED and IT is good also, but it's begging to be countered. Dumping my hand and then getting countered is something I've run into once or twice, and it makes me a very sad panda.

One card that I love that no one seems to quite get is Sylvan Library. I've found it's great numerous times to go "*mock sigh* Alright.. I'll take 4, and then use duress and cabal therapy to rip your hand apart" and the synergy with fetchlands and tainted pact (or even IT) is amazing. Shuffle effects are great with that card.

As for blue. I don't like it. BUT that doesn't mean I won't throw your list together and see what it's like on MWS. I've tested various versions of Golden Grahams on MWS, but have yet to see one I like better than the one I'm running now.

[Watcher487]

Woah nelly. Let's not misinterpret what Tash here has said.

It has never been my intentions to slow down this deck.

Sorry about that Tash, that was actually in response to this...


Lastly, Gamekeeper/Salvagers is not a combo deck in the traditional sense, you should be playing it as board control with a combo finish. Every other role is strictly wrong, unless an opportunity presents itself for you to combo out unhindered or you are forced to Living Wish for Kagemaro, Indrik or Minion of the Wastes and beat down for the win.

Also Palefire has been quoted that he has been working directly with you on a 'better' version.


As for blue. I don't like it. BUT that doesn't mean I won't throw your list together and see what it's like on MWS. I've tested various versions of Golden Grahams on MWS, but have yet to see one I like better than the one I'm running now.

I don't normally play MWS due to 2 big reasons:

1. It has the worst shuffler I have ever seen.
2. Mulliganing usually ends you with basically -1 card.

Most of my testing has come from either Apprentice soloing or just plain hardcore live testing both at tournies and just putzing around with other peeps. But I still stand behind the deck more than anyone can imagine. Blue does make a difference.

[baptist]

Last weekend I went to a tournament and this are my conclusions on the deck:

1) Infest need to be in the maindeck at least 3 times. You need it to win against goblins (Pernicious deed is too slow, and is handy against meddling mage, angelstompy)

2) I was not impressed with the transformational sb for 2 darksteel colossus.

3) high tide and landstill seem to be bad matchups.

My sb for the event was:
3 hymn to tourach
3 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 darksteel colossus
1 uktabi orangutan
1 indrik stomphowler
1 phyrexian tower
1 gamekeeper
1 xantid swarm
1 orzhov guildmage

4) i didn't use orzhov a single time

5) i didn't play auriok on the sb cause i rarely wish for it and cause i wanted to save a slot.

[Bane of the Living]

Colossus plan is obsolete. If you really want the creature switch you should only be doing it against decks packing Swords to Plowshares, and possibly Crypt as well. You should be doing this with Simic Sky Swallower.

You need the wish target keeper and salvager. Dont be retarded.

Orzhov is needed as a wishable win condition. Orzhov = life loss it gets around worship effects.

Infest is just fine main. I played it for a while.

[Watcher487]

3) high tide and landstill seem to be bad matchups.

My sb for the event was:
3 hymn to tourach
3 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 darksteel colossus
1 uktabi orangutan
1 indrik stomphowler
1 phyrexian tower
1 gamekeeper
1 xantid swarm
1 orzhov guildmage

High Tide usually runs me about 40-60 Game 1, but this is in respects to intelligant Solidarity players. I can normally run about 55-45 otherwise.

Keys to this match-up is usually stopping them from drawing then hitting high tide. (ie. I normally call Meditate with a blind Therapy turn 1-2 then IF I have hit him for other discard earlier I would call High Tide IF I haven't seen alot of draw on thier side.)

Landstill on the other hand should be positive, but I have seen things to otherwise go against this. Early Wasteland/Crucible of Worlds hands are sometimes savage against my build but it is definatly not the end of the world. The deck normally should go off turn 3-4 or at least try to if you can. If they run a more traditional U/W build then I would suggest switching over the Salvagers to Simic Sky Swallowers, since they will most likely be taking out the Wraths for Crypts. For the more recent U/G/w/b builds I would suggest taking out 1 Salvager and any Innocent Bloods for the Hymns in your board. Mind everyone I bring in Teferi's Response post-board and use the disruption against them.

I think the board is ok, with the exceptions noted above, but I would have to question a couple cards and also what your current MD looks like too.


Orzhov is needed as a wishable win condition. Orzhov = life loss it gets around worship effects.

QFT, I normally don't wish for him either baptist, but he is a ness. evil especially with the fact that there are so many random deck out there that makes it impossible to win unless you don't target and don't deal damage.

[baptist]

My MD is the 'standard list' but with 3 innocent blood and 3 infest.

I changed my sb, cause colossus didn't a good job last time:

3 tsunami (landstill and high tide: hymn was not good enough)
3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 uktabi orangutan
1 indrik stomphowler
1 phyrexian tower
1 gamekeeper
1 auriok salvager
1 xantid swarm
1 orzhov guildmage

I'll continue to test it further and see if i can play around the hate cards pithing needle and tormod's crypt.

[Bane of the Living]

Indrik Stomphowler is way to expensive. When in the world have you actually wished for him? If your playing the 'standard' list with 19 lands I dont see him being cast. Ever. If you really need another monkey, add another monkey. But Ive only ever needed one.

If High Tide and Landstill are a problem for you then sideboard Xantid Swarm instead. He puts pressure on Solidarity so they need to go off in response to him instead of your comboing, otherwise you get an undisrupted combo finish.

Hes obviously good against Landstill's counter's as well. Give him a go. Hes tried and true.

Just to recap for all the noobs picking up the deck. Alot of people dont know this but if someone activates Crypt in response to Gamekeepers trigger you wont get a creature. Part of the cost is to rfg the keeper, but if hes not there you dont get your dude. This is mostly in regards to the Sky Swallower plan. You still need to smash the Crypt before you go for your fatty.

Oh and against Solidarity, when playing a first blind Cabal Therapy you name FORCE OF WILL. Your combo is important and faster than Solidarity's, get it off! Always just show the Therapy to the opponent before naming a card, wait to see if they Force it. Alot of good players will still hold their FoW knowing they lose 1-2 cards either way, hoping you'll guess wrong. Naming Meditate is a horrible idea because it only takes a Brainstorm to hide away all the important blue cards.

[Watcher487]

Oh and against Solidarity, when playing a first blind Cabal Therapy you name FORCE OF WILL. Your combo is important and faster than Solidarity's, get it off! Always just show the Therapy to the opponent before naming a card, wait to see if they Force it. Alot of good players will still hold their FoW knowing they lose 1-2 cards either way, hoping you'll guess wrong. Naming Meditate is a horrible idea because it only takes a Brainstorm to hide away all the important blue cards.

This is just wrong for 1 very big reason. Turn 1-2 Cabal Therapy will never be forced that's true, but you don't have enough discard w/ 4 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy to just go Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Discard and Turn 3 Discard. This means you can not pound card advantage out of their hand. You have to make choices with what is more vital for them. Meditate allows them to combo off, not Force of Will. Solidarity going Force of Will on for example one of my Tutors or Gamekeeper is huge card advantage for me since they have to get rid of another card just to stop what I'm doing. Your role in this match-up should stay COMBO not Control. If you force your opponent into the control role he is in a bad position.

[Bane of the Living]

This is just wrong for 1 very big reason. Turn 1-2 Cabal Therapy will never be forced that's true, but you don't have enough discard w/ 4 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy to just go Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Discard and Turn 3 Discard. This means you can not pound card advantage out of their hand. You have to make choices with what is more vital for them. Meditate allows them to combo off, not Force of Will. Solidarity going Force of Will on for example one of my Tutors or Gamekeeper is huge card advantage for me since they have to get rid of another card just to stop what I'm doing. Your role in this match-up should stay COMBO not Control. If you force your opponent into the control role he is in a bad position.

Thats why you need to combo out faster. If your opponent just FoW'ed your Gamekeeper you lost the game. Theres no way you could ever come back from tapping out to cast keeper. Meditate is important but Impulse and card draw find more Meditate's. Brainstorm hides the key cards on top of the library till your discard resolves. Ive seen Solidarity win many times without the draw 4, they might not have it in hand since they usually only run 3 maindeck anyways. Solidarity isnt gonna counter your shitty tutor unless its with Remand and they need to draw their next land.

FoW is the enemy. Duress is a legacy staple thanks to its exsistence. Therapy only beats it up more. FoW is your enemy. Take it out and combo off.

It should be noted that any good Solidarity player should probably never lose this matchup. A well timed Brainfreeze will mill you to death if you played spellbombs and LED's a bajillion times. Its not unwinable, but its not worth discussing endlessly either.

[lillelassie]

Could Lotus Bloom add anything to this deck? Salavger can put it into play from the grave. If you suspend it turn 1, it gives an explosive turn 4 in which you can go off. LED is probraly better, but Lotus Bloom can act as LED 5-6 ? The only reason it might be better than LED is that it can actually make mana without discarding you hand. This will help against LD, screw and so on.

Ideas?

[Rastadon]

Salvager doesn't put the artifact into play, it puts it into your hand. So no combo with Salvager.

[despo]

I took this deck to the Belgian Legacy Championship last Sunday and this is what happened:
Belgian Legacy Championship (66 people)

Salvager Game

4 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
3 swamp
2 snow-covered swamp
1 forest
1 snow-covered forest
1 plains

3 gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

4 dark ritual
3 tainted pact

3 infernal tutor
3 living wish
3 innocent blood
4 cabal therapy
4 duress

4 lion’s eye diamond
2 pyrite spellbomb
1 chromatic star
1 chromatic sphere
2 lotus petal

2 pernicious deed

SB
1 pernicious deed
1 infest
2 hideous laughter
3 sylvan library
3 krosan grip
1 auriok salvagers
1 gamekeeper
1 phyrexian tower
1 harmonic sliver
1 bone shredder

I usually play no infest in my sideboard, because there are almost no goblins in my meta, but I figured out there might be some at a larger event. Turned out I was right about that, with goblins being all over the place, unfortunately I was unable to find other infests and had to play with hideous laughter.

Round 1 UWg – fish
This guy plays a deck that resembles threshold, but with creatures like watchwolf and Jotun Grunt. I know thresh is a bad match up, so I’m in for a tough game. I am glad to win game 1, where he doesn’t see any counters and I can duress his only swords. I side in pernicious deed and krosan grip for innocent blood and a living wish, but I have no chance of winning another game, as I get killed by a watchwolf with jitte, backed up by too many swords and counterspells.

0-1
Round 2 UG-Madness
Game 1, I’m on the draw and see a sick first turn kill hand, unfortunately without any land. I don’t know what he’s playing so I keep and hope it’s nothing with force of will in it., unfortunately it is and I lose the game after losing my hand and getting 6 points of manaburn on turn one. I board in my krosan grips and get ready for game 2. He apparently did not recognize my deck and/or read his cards well, as he plays a pithing needle on my lotus petal (my only non-land permanent). I find some discard, and the only pressure he can apply is an aquamoebe where he keeps on discarding his excess land too, when I get down to 3 life, I finally find a gamekeeper, krosan grip his arcane laboratory and flashback therapy for the win. Game three is almost the same, but I find a gamekeeper a lot earlier and so I don’t have to worry about my life total.

1-1

Round 3 Goblin Sligh.
I go first, land go. He plays mountain, fanatic. On my turn, I play land, double lion’s eye diamond, living wish, sac led for sextuple white, discarding pyrite spellbomb, wish for salvagers and win the game. I am convinced he plays goblins and side out my duress and 2 living wish, for infest and krosan grip. The loss of duress turns out to be a big mistake when he fireblasts my auriok salvagers next time I try to go off, and beats face with his goblins. Game three is very close, as I can deed away his goblins, he blasts my salvagers, but I get another. He has one card in hand, one mountain (untapped) and a fanatic on the board. I have almost no library left thanks to gamekeeper activations, and I play my last win condition (living wish got milled). But luck was not with me that game, as the card he topdecked was lightning bolt, and I lose that one. After all I should have boarded my duress back in after the second game, to take out his burn.

1-2 Not that impressive, I hoped for a better record.

Round 4, Sligh
He beats some face, I drop a gamekeeper, he burns a little more, I make sure he has no nasty burn for salvagers and win. Game 2 was the same, except that he tried to help me take out his nasty burn, when he fireblasts ME on turn three. That was the most friendly fireblast I ever took.

2-2 Back in the running?

Round 5 Pox
I can easily win game 1, because the only thing he sees is a duress and two nether spirits. Their beatings end when I drop a gamekeeper, and I win from there. I side in krosan grip and sylvan library (card drawing enchantments > monoblack discard). He begins strong with dark ritual into duress and hymn to tourach, but unfortunately for him he has no more disruption and I get a gamekeeper to stop his spirit and chimeric idol and sylvan library gets me my sac outlets for gamekeeper and I win the game with one card in my library, luckily sylvan library is optional (my first salvagers got hymned).

3-2

Round 6 Goblins
Game one: the typical goblins game, get some beatings, drop gamekeeper, win from there. Game two: another typical goblins game, he shuts down my mana with two ports, and he goes broken for more than thirty damage thanks to double warchief, pyromancer and a few piledrivers.
Game three goes easier, I discard a little, drop deed and gamekeeper, and wait until I find duress for his pyrokinesis, in the meanwhile he drops pyrostatic pillar in front of my deed, I just blow my deed and win, as he had no meaningful cards in hand anymore.

4-2 this might actually get me somewhere

Round 7 GWB control?
This guy plays a deck I never saw before with false prophet, recurring nightmare and loxodon hierarch, it looked a solid metagame choice as the deck probably owns goblins, unfortunately it was no match for my deck and I go 2-0 easily.

5-2. I end up 11th and take 5 packs home, quite satisfied with my finish.

Some notes:
Krosan grip is definitely the best anti-hate card that can be used, it never let me down.

Infest doesn’t seem very necessary, I never saw one, but I could handle goblins really easy, and when I lost no infest could have saved me.

Lotus petal is great, it helps against color screw and accelerates your gamekeepers/salvagers.

[Finn]

Thanks for the report, Despo. I must say that Pernicious Deed is a peculiar card to have in that deck. When I used to play against that deck a lot, it was the card that I counted on most to defeat it!

Could you list your lands for us as well?

Oh, and btw, what was the top 8?

[despo]

top 8 was four goblin decks, landstill, iggy pop, deadguy and wub-fish. Finals were between two goblin decks, but I don't know the rest of t8 standings.

Pernicious deed is awesome in this deck: it takes care of multiple needles/chalices/sphere of resistance/meddling mage, while clearing the board at the same time.

[Solpugid]

I've found it great having volrath's stronghold in this deck. One main, one boarded for wish. If I'm playing against a deck with counters, I'll often throw a wish out when I think it can't be countered. If it resolves, I have stronghold to try and resolve a gamekeeper EVERY turn. If they counter it, I just baiting one (and hopefully the only) counter out of their hand.

It also helps you dodge a tiny bit of grave hate if you can pull your salvagers out of your grave before a tormod's crypt or something. Not ideal, but it's necessary sometimes.

[DarkAkuma]

While I dont agree with some of the card choices, im very happy to see someone try new things with this deck. Not just the standard cut-and-paste of a year and a half old decklist.

I do like the Harmonic Sliver sideboard. I replaced sexmonkeys in my board with that a while ago, but havent realy tested it yet. Hows it working out for you? Easy enough to have the white for its casting cost without using petals? (cards i dont agree with, atleast for this deck)

How many of the goblin decks did you see splashing white? In my limited meta right now, i just have RW Goblins, so i use Massacre. Most of the other agro decks that pop up in my meta also splash white, so my Massacre's should end up fine atleast for me.

Ive been thinking about running a few Krosan Grips in board too. Only have one right now though, and their in high demand. So im still running Ray of Revalation (I realy hate top deck humility more then anything else).

@Solpugid: Ive been running Volrath's Stronghold too, but just in board. Dont think it needs to be main. Its very nice to have accessable. I was running it instead of City in Board, often wishing it just as my 3rd/4th land drop. But now im running both cause not haveing white when you need it sucks.

[despo]

Finding white for harmonic sliver is never hard, thanks to 7 fetchland and chromatic star/sphere. It is definitely better than sex monkeys and it opens up a place in your sideboard (monk realist or something along those lines).

About the lotus petals: I think they are really good in this deck: they fix your mana and accelerate your game, I have won a lot games thanks to the petals, you should really give them a try. Turn one gamekeeper or turn two pernicious deed are really strong plays with this deck and you can sac it for red to have your spellbomb kill a meddling mage/warchief/piledriver/... if you really need to. I was always happy to have them.

And krosan grip is really better than anything else to fight hate: needle, crypt and chalice or artifacts, humility and arcane laboratory are enchantments. Just slaughter them with the power of the almighty krosan grip MUHAHAHA :wink:
but i think even naturalize would be better than ray of revelation, unless nobody in your meta has ever heard of needle or crypt.

I saw a little more green splashed goblins than white splashes, but there are almost none in my meta, I think I might cut the infest from my board, but if you see a lot of RW, massacre seems really good. Lotus petal really shines here, giving you the speed you need to catch up on them. (petals aren't affected by port or wasteland).

[Tom_Bombadil]

Hey

First - Sorry for my poor English its not so often that I write in English.

My coal was to make it a more stabile and allround creature-oriented build with cards against combo and control in sideboard.

Dark ritual I discarded for Utopia sprawl which makes the deck slower but more mana stabile and it have to be that when running 4 colours. The Utopia spawl makes the combo a turn slower than dark ritual but a turn faster than none - say a more stabile turn 4 kill. The deck is not hurt so much by counterspells.

The deck want to make the combo through gamekeeper almost every time and make use of the cabal therapy / gamekeeper plan a few times before going of. That way the deck is not hurt by direct sorcery removal. Instants like StP and bouncespells can be handled with Phyrexian Tower in respond by sac. Gamekeeper.

The deck is a slower and more creature oriented build with 4 pyroclasm main. Pyroclasm is a good card vs. a lot of creature decks: goblins, B/W and mono black with hippies and confidants a so on, sometimes also Tresshold with medling mages and so on. Pyroclasm takes the gamekeeper to grave as well - so it is a combo pact as well.

To protect the combo some cards is needed and here I think deed and Ancient Grudge will do good.

Against combo and control the 4 pyroclasm charges to Hymn.

It is possible to cut down the number of pyroclasm and add in infernal tutors for a more flexible gameplan but that Is depending on metagame.

What do people thing about it?

Salvager pyrogame

Maindeck
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Living Wish
4 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
4 pyroclasm
4 Utopia sprawl
(38)

Lands:
4 Wooded foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Forest
4 swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
(22)

Sideboard
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Wirewood Herald
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Ancient grudge
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Hymn to Tourach

[Bane of the Living]

Aside from Deed hitting your Utopia Sprawl it seems like a cool change. You'd need to make sure and sprawl a basic so not to lose it to wasteland. Have you thought to change any more of the Chromatic Sphere slots with more Spellbombs, they become usefull when playing red mana.

I would also go 3 Keeper, 2 Salvager as thats the combination that seems to work best.

[despo]

I don't think it is right to take away dark ritual in favor of utopia sprawl, because you lose your explosiveness and if you can't find a basic forest, you open yourself up to losing to a single wasteland. Port also becomes a lot more devastating, since they can lock up two mana for the price of one. And I didn't even mention sinkhole or vindicate. Mana is a valuable resource, especially in this format where you need the speed to compete with goblins and iggy pop.


Splashing red for pyroclasm and spellbomb seems alright, but you will need four spellbombs to make sure you can actually do something with it.
I don't know if pyroclasm is better than infest, especially in the match up where you need it the most (goblins who play wasteland + port). Remember you can always play infest of dark ritual...

I also agree with the 3 gamekeeper - 2 salvager plan, you don't want to find another gamekeeper when you have all your pieces and it makes sure you can run another gamekeeper as a wish target.

I don't know about phyrexian tower mainboard, as a one-of you probably don't see it often and it's really bad before you have gamekeeper, especially when playing four colors.

[Tacosnape]

When I ran this deck, my sideboard included 7 Living Wish targets, 4 Pernicious Deed, and 4 Orim's Chant. Chant not only let me draw out counters or combo out through Blue-heavy decks, it also gave me a silver bullet against other combo decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop.

[Goblin Snowman]

When I ran this deck, my sideboard included 7 Living Wish targets, 4 Pernicious Deed, and 4 Orim's Chant. Chant not only let me draw out counters or combo out through Blue-heavy decks, it also gave me a silver bullet against other combo decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop.

Do you feel that more disruption against Solidarity or Iggy Pop is needed? I have never felt that the eight discard spells were not enough.

[despo]

When I ran this deck, my sideboard included 7 Living Wish targets, 4 Pernicious Deed, and 4 Orim's Chant. Chant not only let me draw out counters or combo out through Blue-heavy decks, it also gave me a silver bullet against other combo decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop.


Did you never feel the need to run krosan grips in your sideboard? they deal with all hate (except for meddling mage) and gives you a lot more insurance to make sure you can combo out. Orim's chant does give you more options against other combo decks, but with 8 discard spells and a potential beatdown-plan (not a great plan, but still...) you should be able to take away most matches.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

About the transormantl sideboard plan:

Some people says that SSS is better then DSC because of the Stp. But why they would sword your DSC not your gamkeeper?
Do i missing something?

[Alex_Van_R]

Because most of the times you will be able to sacrifice your gamekeeper immediately for Cabal Therapy. Your opponent won't get priority anymore to swords to keeper.

[Parcher]

@Snowman: I have found that "Eight is Enough" against IGG-y. They are only one turn faster, and if you should be able to slow them down. Always discard their accelleration. It doesn't matter that they only need to draw one more to win if you win the next turn. I run a Xantid to Wish for in addition against Tide. They are a half turn slower, so discard their counters if you have a fast hand, and their Tides if you have a slow one.

@despo: Grip is a personal choice. I never liked it due to it's mana cost, and the fact that you need to run several to have a chance to draw one, unlike the creatures. The deck's creator, however, swears by them. I guess if you run into a control deck with hateful permanents, it is the best option.

@Cthulhu: Running the "Oath" plan in the SB is a crutch that has been found unneeded. Mainly because if you draw the SSS, you have no way to return it to the library. Wish then becomes your only win condition. With disruption and Deeds from the board, you should be able to either combo off, or just beat down with the creatures you already run.

@Alex: While you are correct, you still need to try and rid them of StP. They do get priority after the GK triggers, but before you name for Cabal, so they can easily Plow the creature your Gamekeeper gets. Unless it is a SSS. Which I don't think is the best plan.

[DarkAkuma]

Appearantly theres a new card coming out of the new set:

Roof of Evil* B
Instant
Split Second
Choose target card, other than a basic land in a graveyard. Search its controller's graveyard, hand and library for all cards with the same name and remove them from the game.

I saw this card, and i was ready to start takeing my sal/game deck apart immediately, since i know this will be played maindeck alot in my meta.

Then i thought, wait, how well would this work in sal/game itself? If only as something more to help get rid of thier own copys.

What do people think? Is sal/game dead, not, stronger, or what?

[Parcher]

At first blush, I'd have to say it's not good. The split second part forces you you run a discard spell before you activate Gamekeeper, or sac LED. That will slow the deck down considerably in some cases. They have to destroy your LED unless they go first, then draw and cast this. It makes things harder, but is so narrow that all there is to do is play around it.

The only decks that might run it are our two worst matchups anyway: Deadguy, and Fish. They probably won't, as they don't need to improve their combo game. Any Aggro deck with Black can run it just to insure the opponent has no Forces left.

The only decks I can see gaining significant improval from it are IGGy, to remove Force, and Train Wreck, who should have a very solid combo game with it. Unfortunately, IGGy gets hurt by it worse than anything.

[lukatron2]

I had a couple questions/comments about this deck...first off...does anyone know EXACTLY how much color of each mana needs to be floated in order to make the kill?

another thing....has anyone ever tried out Mesmeric Fiend in the sb as a wish target? or is it too slow/not effective enough?

one more thing...there's been a lot of builds on this forum and TMD but do you guys think that there is an optimal build right (bwg build) now or is it just personal prefference (# of infernal tutor, chromatic star etc...)?

[Parcher]

I had a couple questions/comments about this deck...first off...does anyone know EXACTLY how much color of each mana needs to be floated in order to make the kill?

The question is a bit vague. You have various methods of killing your opponent, so it dependes on which way you choose. You also have various ways of starting the combo. Technically, the cheapest you could do it for is 1W. This would be with a Gamekeeper in play. Sac it to Flashback Cabal Therapy, it's ability places a trinket and LED in the Graveyard, and Salvagers into play. Use the 1W to recur LED, and go off. If you have an LED in play, you need nothing. If you have an LED and no creature in play, you need 5. Two to Tutor or Wish. Sac the LED in response. One+LED mana to cast Salvagers. Two to recur LED.


another thing....has anyone ever tried out Mesmeric Fiend in the sb as a wish target? or is it too slow/not effective enough?

It has been tried. It is effective, but too slow. It also burns a Living Wish, which are golden in this deck. With 8 plus Flashback discard spells, it is a rare instance where spending four plus a key card is worth the effect.


one more thing...there's been a lot of builds on this forum and TMD but do you guys think that there is an optimal build right (bwg build) now or is it just personal prefference (# of infernal tutor, chromatic star etc...)?

There is no optimal build of this deck, but this is not due to personal preference. It is due to the fact that a great deal of ancillary hate cards effect this deck. You have to adjust what is in the Main and the Sideboard to what you expect to face. The good thing is, since this deck runs so many answers and ways to get them, it is usually minor changes. I will post my current list below:

2 Swamp
2 Snow Covered Swamp
1 Forest
2 Snow Covered Forest
1 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Living Wish
4 Tainted Pact
4 Innocent Blood

1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Aether Spellbomb
2 Sylvan Library

SB
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Orzhov Guildmage
1 City of Brass
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Massacre

[Bane of the Living]

SB
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Orzhov Guildmage
1 City of Brass
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Massacre

Massacre is interesting. I just put the deck back together and was trying to determine whether or not its worth including it. Its always a free way to kill off your keeper against plains which is a plus. Im running Kjedon Champions, the 1cc 3/1 that makes you sac a guy when he comes into play, also High Market/Phyrexian Tower. They're great ways to turn Living Wish into your keeper killer.

[lukatron2]

I had a couple questions/comments about this deck...first off...does anyone know EXACTLY how much color of each mana needs to be floated in order to make the kill?


sorry...I may have not been clear here...what I meant was this: if you have the salvagers in play and you have the LED in hand and you are going off (using pyrite spellbomb as the win condition), how much white/red mana total is needed of each color in order to kill your opponent if they are at 20 life...does that make any more sense?

[Parcher]

Massacre is interesting. I just put the deck back together and was trying to determine whether or not its worth including it. Its always a free way to kill off your keeper against plains which is a plus. Im running Kjedon Champions, the 1cc 3/1 that makes you sac a guy when he comes into play, also High Market/Phyrexian Tower. They're great ways to turn Living Wish into your keeper killer.

I use Massacre instead of Infest for several reasons. One of the most common threats against this deck is Meddling Mage. Obviously this kills him for free. Against Fish, it sweeps their board other than Grunt, and this deck tend not to put anything in it's graveyard before comboing off. Goblins is the main target for Infest though.

The problem is, if they can keep you off four mana, they can usually keep you off three. The mono red versions usually have some combination of Pillar/Crypt/Chalice. To be honest, I take out Duress to bring in Deed instead of Massacre against them, as they hurt their clock to do so. They also tend to tap out more to cast these cards and threats. This give you ample opportunity to cast Deed to wipe both the hate, and some Goblins off the board.

Against White-splash, Massacre is the best possible sidebard card. I side out Innocent Blood for them, and leave in the discard to deal with Plow.

Tower is still a good sideboard target though, I'm just not using them now. Kjledorn is probably outdated and a wasted slot.

@lukatron: I do understand your question now. You need 38 mana to perform the kill. Casting Spellbomb 10 times (10C), recursing it 9 times (9C/9W), saccing it 10 times (10R). Therefore, you must recurse LED 37 times, gaining one mana on each loop, and three on the final. Once you have reached the threshold of needed White mana (28 recursions, saccing for White) you switch to Red. The final sac will leave you with two Red floating.

This is all sort of superflous though. The only occasions when it might matter is if your opponent has Blue or White untapped. White signals Abeyance, Orim's Chant, or Swords to Plowshares. Blue signals Counterspell (only effective before the second recursion), Trickbind/Stifle, or Brain Freeze. If this is the case, you must scout their hand with Discard before comboing. If not, it really doesn't matter what mana you use or choose. You can name an arbitrary large number, knowing your opponent will die before it becomes relevant.

[noobslayer]

It shouldn't matter much, you just generate an arbitrarily large number. But if you are killing someone at twenty with pyrite spellbomb, you need something like 9 white, 10 red, and 19 of any.

EDIT: Parcher beat me to it.

[Bane of the Living]

sorry...I may have not been clear here...what I meant was this: if you have the salvagers in play and you have the LED in hand and you are going off (using pyrite spellbomb as the win condition), how much white/red mana total is needed of each color in order to kill your opponent if they are at 20 life...does that make any more sense?

Im thinking you dont understand how the deck 'combos' off. You win when you have Salvagers in play and any amount of Chromatic Sphere/Stars and LED's in your hand or graveyard. You need the 1W to activate Salvagers, you get your LED into hand. Play it, sac it for WWW. Then you do it again. Thats infinite mana. Then use that mana to draw through your deck with the Chromatic Star till you draw your one of Pyrite Spellbomb. Return LED for as much red mana as needed to throw spellbomb at your opponent 10+ times. If you need to, theres also the option of playing Living Wish and fetching the Orzhov Guildmage. You normally do that if you have LED but no cog to cycle through the deck.

@Parcher.
I noticed your playing Aether Spellbomb. I was running Necrogen in this spot but realized I really didnt need another spellbomb. Why are you playing yours?

[Parcher]

Well, you actually can't go off without a trinket somewhere. You won't have a Wish to get the Guildmage in hand, as your hand will always be empty while recursing LED. The Guildmage is there in case 1) You or your opponent has removed Pyrite from the game. Or 2) Your opponent cannot be targeted. For lukatron, in that case you simply generate enough mana to recurse whatever trinket you may have available, and draw until you get a Wish. Then Wish for Guildmage, gain 21 life, then cause both of you to lose 20 life(or something to that effect).

In addition, I have to state that my previous description of the cycle was based on having Pyrite in hand or on the board. If not, you would need an additional 1W to recurse it.

Regarding Aether, Tash and I decided that we needed an additional maindecked way to deal with Meddling Mage. If they are intelligent, their first names LED. Their second can name either Wish or Pyrite. If they have Needle on Pyrite, you are dead. Fish is an awful matchup, and runs both, as well as Stifle. Threshold usually runs two of the three. Aether allows you to get out of this more easily. In addition, one of the only Aggro matchups this deck fears is Reanimator. They run Chalice, Needle, and sometimes Crypt in the sideboard. Aether will at least slow their threat long enough for you to react to the hate cards, and combo off.

[lukatron2]

Im thinking you dont understand how the deck 'combos' off. You win when you have Salvagers in play and any amount of Chromatic Sphere/Stars and LED's in your hand or graveyard. You need the 1W to activate Salvagers, you get your LED into hand. Play it, sac it for WWW. Then you do it again. Thats infinite mana. Then use that mana to draw through your deck with the Chromatic Star till you draw your one of Pyrite Spellbomb. Return LED for as much red mana as needed to throw spellbomb at your opponent 10+ times. If you need to, theres also the option of playing Living Wish and fetching the Orzhov Guildmage. You normally do that if you have LED but no cog to cycle through the deck.


I think that YOU don't know what the heck I'm saying...the other guys actually answered my question perfectly (thanks guys), and yea, I do know how the combo works and I know you can just float 1,000 white mana and 1,000 red (or any ammount for that as much white/red mana as you want and kill them, but I was simply curious as to EXACTLY how much mana of each color is ACTUALLY needed in order to go off just because...

p.s...has any of you guys ever cast a tainted pact and then you hit a spellbomb, and you gotta take it because you don't want it to be removed...that seems like it might suck

[Goblin Snowman]

I think that YOU don't know what the heck I'm saying...the other guys actually answered my question perfectly (thanks guys), and yea, I do know how the combo works and I know you can just float 1,000 white mana and 1,000 red (or any ammount for that as much white/red mana as you want and kill them, but I was simply curious as to EXACTLY how much mana of each color is ACTUALLY needed in order to go off just because...

p.s...has any of you guys ever cast a tainted pact and then you hit a spellbomb, and you gotta take it because you don't want it to be removed...that seems like it might suck

If you have another Bauble, no, you don't need to take it. You can dig for a Living Wish and get the Maga/Guildmage. Parcher just said this,

"1) You or your opponent has removed Pyrite from the game."

[Bane of the Living]

I think that YOU don't know what the heck I'm saying...the other guys actually answered my question perfectly (thanks guys), and yea, I do know how the combo works and I know you can just float 1,000 white mana and 1,000 red (or any ammount for that as much white/red mana as you want and kill them, but I was simply curious as to EXACTLY how much mana of each color is ACTUALLY needed in order to go off just because...

p.s...has any of you guys ever cast a tainted pact and then you hit a spellbomb, and you gotta take it because you don't want it to be removed...that seems like it might suck

I didnt see the reply from Parcher.

You RFG the Spellbomb and worry more about actually comboing. Like mentioned you can win with Living Wish when you draw through your deck.

[Atwa]

I really like Parchers list.

I've just started to play Golden Grahams for the first time, and although I know most of the theory of the deck, I have little to none experiance with the deck.

I played a few games against a Vintage full power Dragon list and I kicked his ass big time. The Aether Spellbomb really helped me out in this match.

What makes me wondering, did you ever felt the need for acces to blue mana in the maindeck? I really hated it when I had the spellbomb, the only way to use it was to break a Diamond, before I was ready to go off. Maybe a single Underground Sea or Tropical island would help out (and makes your Tained Pacts a little better, since you would be replacing a (Snow-Covered) Swamp of Snow-Covered Forest with it).

[Parcher]

Yes, that would be optimal; But it's a slippery slope.

The deck's worst matchups are first Fish, and a tie for second between Red Death and Deadguy. Death's clock is faster, but Deadguy runs both Swords and Vindicate. Thresh is probably a distant third as their countermagic is rarely a significant difficulty.

The reason I mention this is that this deck requires permanent mana sources. Every non-basic run is another weakness to exploit for Wasteland. Every Fetchland is vulnerable to Stifle. Running more than the minimum amount of color specific Duals leads toward vulnerability.

I suppose that since a great deal of our mana requirements are not color specific, a basic Island could be added. With two Deltas, that's three chnces to draw it. The problem is, with only one Aether, you need your resources to draw it when needed. I'm not sure that in cases where you actually have to use the Spellbomb, that Wishing for City or burning a Chromatic is any worse an allocation of resources than skewing a highly tested mana base.

[Solpugid]

Why is threshold so much easier than fish? Actually, my question should be, why is fish so much harder than threshold (since I can often beat thresh in testing)?

Perhaps you mean UWb fish, with maindeck stifles AND meddling mages, but many thresh decks run the same, or mage + pithing needle. Can you explain this a bit?

As a note, I run 3 maindeck stifle and 4 sideboard mages. No needles.

[lukatron2]

how have you found sylvan library to be? to me, it seems pretty good, but kind of random on the other hand...why not senseis top? seems like it wouldn't be as good if you top decked it late game and you need a combo piece...on the other hand, once it's out, it will help you find the pieces you need...with only 2, the chances of drawing one early on isn't super high...what is your take on the library? just curious

[Parcher]

The Fish deck I was referring to is U/W/b. It is much tougher than Threshold for the very reasons you stated. It runs Stifle, Plow, and Mage maindeck. Grunt is also maindecked, and can occasionally be a problem in that it will shuffle burned trinkets back where you can't reach them. In the sideboard it runs Needle and Duress. No Threshold deck can match the pure hatred in these cards. Needle is probably the easiest to deal with, then Counters, then Mage. Stifle and Duress are the worst, which makes Fish the worst.

Sylvan is somewhat a place holder in the deck. It is golden against any Control or Aggro-Control deck since you can spare life to draw your combo. The amount of Fetchlands let you get the most out of it. The reasons there are only two are first, there is no more room. The other cards are not replaceable. And, it is horrible against Aggro.

Top has been exhaustively tested by several of us, and deemed a poor choice. Even running three, it couldn't be used effectively in time. The worst part was this it is an awful mana leech in a deck that can rarely spare it Sylvan when resolved needs no additional mana, and can just draw you straight into the needed cards.

[Bane of the Living]

I think this is one of those decks we should stick Exirpate in. Probably sideboarded but we need it there non the less. The ability to handle all Swords to Plowshares by taking card of one is a huge matter. Our 8 discard effects will help find targets easily.

Rather than run Deed in the board perhaps Hymn to Tourach will better combat the bad matches of Thresh and Fish. The deck has a decent match against aggro already by simply casting Gamekeeper. Thoughts?

[Tash]

Okay, so Parcher drew my attention to the source, since this thread has been mildly necroed.

Exterpate in the SB? Hrm. That might be interesting, I'll admit, my sideboard has been in shambles, but that's because I moved Deed to the main, and then took out the infest.

I wrote an extensive 10 game report on TMD, here at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25758.msg457773#msg457773

My list has changed however, to this:
//NAME: C:\Documents and Settings\Tash\Desktop\MWS Decks\GoldenGrahamsv3.2.mwDeck
4 Duress
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Bayou
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Sylvan Library
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Innocent Blood
4 Tainted Pact
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scrubland
1 Chromatic Star
3 Gamekeeper
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 City of Brass
SB: 1 Auriok Salvagers
SB: 1 Orzhov Guildmage
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 3 Infest
SB: 1 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Gamekeeper
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower

Like I said, Sideboard is in shambles. I'm thinking 6 infests are a bit much. Maybe exterpate in the SB. It might be worth trying.

I also haven't tested the Swarm, I just want to try it.

[Bane of the Living]

Okay, so Parcher drew my attention to the source, since this thread has been mildly necroed.

Exterpate in the SB? Hrm. That might be interesting, I'll admit, my sideboard has been in shambles, but that's because I moved Deed to the main, and then took out the infest.

I wrote an extensive 10 game report on TMD, here at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25758.msg457773#msg457773

My list has changed however, to this:
//NAME: C:\Documents and Settings\Tash\Desktop\MWS Decks\GoldenGrahamsv3.2.mwDeck
4 Duress
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Bayou
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Sylvan Library
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Innocent Blood
4 Tainted Pact
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scrubland
1 Chromatic Star
3 Gamekeeper
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 City of Brass
SB: 1 Auriok Salvagers
SB: 1 Orzhov Guildmage
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 3 Infest
SB: 1 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Gamekeeper
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower

Like I said, Sideboard is in shambles. I'm thinking 6 infests are a bit much. Maybe exterpate in the SB. It might be worth trying.

I also haven't tested the Swarm, I just want to try it.

I dont like your lack for Innocent Blood. I find it a manditory answer to lackey. Its also a house against Meddling Mage and Jotun Grunt.

I ran Sylvian library in the deck and decided it would be better replaced by Nights Whisper. The card draw is immediate and its a great way to fight the threat of Counterspells.

Last night I tested a few games against gro and found Grunt to be a pain in the ass since he eats Therapy out of the yard and provides quick beats. My hand destruction needed to focus on Swords to Plowshares so I could combo off, I needed to fight counterspells by simply casting numerous Keeper/Salvagers. Nights Whisper will help by giving us more card advantage.

If by using Swarm you refer to playing him against counterspells dont forget you cant add creatures to the deck without severly messing up Gamekeeper. He can be kept as a wish target obviously.

Im trying to find ways to make the deck more consistant. Anyone familiar with Golden Gun my Reanimator deck in the N&D thread knows the shell based off Pull from Eternity. You combine the card with the already played Tainted Pact, and Serum Powder to power into a god hand. The deck would contain a small Reanimator strategy to get Salvager/Keeper into play after using Pull from Eternity. id imagine Reanimate would help combat countered Keepers anyways.

Ive done alot of testing and the consistancy of Golden Gun was amazing. I got turn one Akroma's constantly. The problem was my opponent would find and answer before dying. Salvagers would fix this issue by winning without the use of multiple combat phases.

Anyone more interested in this concept should help me try it out. Im working on the list now, Ill post it either here or in Golden Gun when its finished.

[BeeblesofLife]

Out of curiousity has anyone thought of putting four Xantid swarms in place of duress? It seems like it would give a much better thresh and solidarity match up.

[Bane of the Living]

Out of curiousity has anyone thought of putting four Xantid swarms in place of duress? It seems like it would give a much better thresh and solidarity match up.

I reitterate the fact playing Xantid Swarm really fucks up what Gamekeeper does when he dies. If your familiar with the deck you wouldnt suggest that.

[BeeblesofLife]

Thanks for the beat down Bane....It a very dumb suggestion on my part...and considering i woke up like 25 minutes ago...I should be cut some slack here...
I understand why now....ANd ive been play testing the deck for about a month now and will be taking it to a legacy tourni here in washington. If you all want i will take notes and post the results.

[Bane of the Living]

Sorry to be a dick but it was just mentioned on post before yours. Definitly post your results. The only thing this deck has missing is a lack of attention. Its close to tier one and the numbers it's put up prove it.

[BeeblesofLife]

Here is the list i'll be running....I took parchers list and made some changes to it...So if it does well, Parcher gets the creddit for it...
As for the decklist, here it is....


Lands:
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 PLains
2 Snow-covered Swamp
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Snow-covered Forest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

Spells:
3 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Tainted pact
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Innocent Blood
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Sylvan Library
2 Reanimate

Creatures:
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Sideboard:
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gurilla Shaman
2 Harmonic slivers
1 Phyrixian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Brass
1 Orzhov Guildmage
3 Massacre
2 Hymn to Tourach

Any last minute thoughts and suggestions would be great.

[Bane of the Living]

I know Parcher finds it useless but I like Kjedorean Dead as a wish target. You want Living Wish to read "1G: Kill Keeper" and the option of doing so with a land drop is terrific. But if you've already made a land drop for the turn you dont want to be out of options. Turning Living Wish into "1GB: Kill Keeper" is fine.

You can probably cut one Harmonic out of the side since there are very few situations where you'll be wishing for removal twice without already being dead.

I see the need for Meddling Mage removal in the board also. This can be Cabal Pit, Bone Shredder, or Gilded Drake + therapy flashback.

[lukatron2]

I played this deck in a local tourney today and there were a couple of times I wish I would have had a bone shredder in the wishboard...

[Parcher]

Well, Bone Shredder has been in and out of sideboards before. It's a good card for this deck, I just haven't found much use for it lately.

With 4 Innocent Blood, 1 Pyrite and 1 Aether maindeck I usually can deal with one Mage easily. If they get two before you can go off, that's a huge problem. But most of the decks that run him have few creatures in general. Slivers, for instance. But if you metagame for them you've already lost.

Please remember that this is not just a combo deck. I have won as many games against Threshold by swinging with Salvagers as I have with LED. Even the non-Hatfield versions only run 12-13 creatures. They will never block with the Mage, and the Mage can't get through Salvagers. If you only have Gamekeeper, they still will not block, as they don't want to chance a Salvagers even if you are kold on LED. They will also tend to sac their larger creatures to Innocent Blood to keep Mage on the board. This is where you want to Wish for Guildmage. He becomes a 3 point a turn swing. Two points of damage, then you gain a life. Even a Sliver or Monkey will help, as since they won't block, you are often trading two for two. With two or three creatures, they have to keep the Mage home, which gives you 2 for zero in the damage race.

Post board, Deed and/or Massacre makes Mage a non-factor. There are much worsecards they can sideboard in.

I have found with 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Cabal Therapy, and one Tower, I never used the Kjeldorn. I just don't think it's needed. If you have room, great. But as Tash mentoined, the sideboard for this deck varies widely. I don't have anywhere near enough room for such a narrow card.

@Beebles: Stronghold has been tested, and found wanting. The ability to use it at instant speed is mitigated by the fact that this deck taps out a lot. Even if you have a game in which it would be good, your opponent should find a hole to bypass it.

Hymn is a fine card, but this deck needs Deed. Why? The three worst cards against this deck are Mage, Needle, and Stifle (Gamekeeper trigger). Without Deed, Needle will always name Salvagers. With Deed, they can lose both their Mage, and Needle if they don't name it. Even if you only run two or three for show, you have to keep your opponents playing honestly.

Reanimate seems odd. Gamekeeper should never be in your graveyard. Salvagers should only be in play if you are winning, or playing against a Control deck. Countrol decks tend to put Salvagers where you can Wish for them. Burn-type decks are the only ones I can think that might put Salvagers in the 'yard unless someone gets lucky with a Hymn, and you don't want to be losing four life against Burn for any reason.

Lastly, do what you have to to up your Living Wish count to four. It's the most versitile card in the deck, and multiples are almost always welcome.

[Bane of the Living]

Well, Bone Shredder has been in and out of sideboards before. It's a good card for this deck, I just haven't found much use for it lately.

With 4 Innocent Blood, 1 Pyrite and 1 Aether maindeck I usually can deal with one Mage easily. If they get two before you can go off, that's a huge problem. But most of the decks that run him have few creatures in general. Slivers, for instance. But if you metagame for them you've already lost.

Please remember that this is not just a combo deck. I have won as many games against Threshold by swinging with Salvagers as I have with LED. Even the non-Hatfield versions only run 12-13 creatures. They will never block with the Mage, and the Mage can't get through Salvagers. If you only have Gamekeeper, they still will not block, as they don't want to chance a Salvagers even if you are kold on LED. They will also tend to sac their larger creatures to Innocent Blood to keep Mage on the board. This is where you want to Wish for Guildmage. He becomes a 3 point a turn swing. Two points of damage, then you gain a life. Even a Sliver or Monkey will help, as since they won't block, you are often trading two for two. With two or three creatures, they have to keep the Mage home, which gives you 2 for zero in the damage race.

Post board, Deed and/or Massacre makes Mage a non-factor. There are much worsecards they can sideboard in.

I have found with 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Cabal Therapy, and one Tower, I never used the Kjeldorn. I just don't think it's needed. If you have room, great. But as Tash mentoined, the sideboard for this deck varies widely. I don't have anywhere near enough room for such a narrow card.

@Beebles: Stronghold has been tested, and found wanting. The ability to use it at instant speed is mitigated by the fact that this deck taps out a lot. Even if you have a game in which it would be good, your opponent should find a hole to bypass it.

Hymn is a fine card, but this deck needs Deed. Why? The three worst cards against this deck are Mage, Needle, and Stifle (Gamekeeper trigger). Without Deed, Needle will always name Salvagers. With Deed, they can lose both their Mage, and Needle if they don't name it. Even if you only run two or three for show, you have to keep your opponents playing honestly.

Reanimate seems odd. Gamekeeper should never be in your graveyard. Salvagers should only be in play if you are winning, or playing against a Control deck. Countrol decks tend to put Salvagers where you can Wish for them. Burn-type decks are the only ones I can think that might put Salvagers in the 'yard unless someone gets lucky with a Hymn, and you don't want to be losing four life against Burn for any reason.

Lastly, do what you have to to up your Living Wish count to four. It's the most versitile card in the deck, and multiples are almost always welcome.

Rather than Kjedoran, Shredder seems like the candidate if you can fit it.

@Reanimate I agree. The only matches where it would work are ones against discard and there arent many.

@Hymn. I also found it lacking. The original The Game used Hymn in the maindeck but they didnt use the Salvagers shell and had the room. As a sideboard option Deed is much stronger.

This is my newest list.

Lands: 20
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire


Spells: 35
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chromatic Star
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Pernicious Deed

Creatures: 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Sideboard: 15
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Phyrixian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Brass
1 Orzhov Guildmage
3 Massacre
2 Defense Grid

Im going without Tainted Pact for now. Its good and all but I think both Living Wish and Infernal Tutor are stronger. I really want to fit the Deeds maindeck and I think thats the best way.

[T_B]

I agree with your list but have some questions. First: Why mox monkey? What does he add?

Second: In testing I have found it ok adding some Gemstone Mines and they rarely died when it mattered. Have you considered that?

[Bane of the Living]

I agree with your list but have some questions. First: Why mox monkey? What does he add?

Second: In testing I have found it ok adding some Gemstone Mines and they rarely died when it mattered. Have you considered that?

Mox Monkey is ideal for multiple Pithing Needles or Tormod's Crypts, The decks most common enemies. I havent tried Gemstone Mine but I like fetches and duals.

[T_B]

Ok, I can understand, but you can really only get him off a Wish-LED... Which means your taking out a single City Cup or you have to pay 7 more mana to eat a 3sphere.. Therefore, It seems like you want monkey after your going off... Which seems hard.

In testing against stax and other simular decks (Wildfire Stax, Sun Tower, and the original..) I had to hope he only got 1 and I could Sliver it out. If not, I scoop. Its unfortunately really that simple.

[noobslayer]

Sorry to necro this thread. With Goblins being more and more played, has anyone else considered a red splash beyond mox monkey? This would give us clasm as removal and a keeper outlet, and the awsomeness that is ancient grudge to fight pithing needles along side pernicious deed. Just a thought.

[Parcher]

Short answer is that Goblins is one of this deck's easier matchups. They can't attack through Gamekeeper unless it is lethal. Innocent Blood slows them down enough for us to combo off. Then we have some combination of Deed, Massacre, and Infest to sweep if the combo becomes delayed. Post board, Deed deals with Chalice, Crypt, and Pillar easily. Plus, the Wishboard can grab individual answers to these.

The main reason, both outside of, and including Goblins, is the problematic manabase of this deck. Since it needs three to four lands to operate without accelerators, more than a single Dual for a splash of color becomes inherently dangerous. The deck need multiple Black, and Green, with a splash of White occasionally. The single Badlands usually only acts as a Lotus Petal to answer specific cards. With eight Fetchlands, and only 19-20 lands total, each land becomes highly important. Allowing the opponent an opportunity to take advantage of us having to grab an off-color Dual, just to splash for a color that does little more than the cards already available is not worth the risk.

[Bane of the Living]

Well incase anyone isnt on the ball with Future Sight cards theres the new tutor Summoners Pact which cost 0 mana and fetches a green creature. The first thing I thought when I read that off the spoiler was Gamekeeper! Ive had alot of games with this deck where Living Wish + LED was game over. LED mana is ridiculous to use off a tutor or a wish. We used to need the 1G to cast wish first, now we can pay 0 and float our triple green. This will obviously give the deck much more consistancy.

Heres my revised try at the deck..

Lands: 20
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire


Spells: 35
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoners Pact
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chromatic Star
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Pernicious Deed

Creatures: 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Sideboard: 15
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Phyrixian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Brass
1 Orzhov Guildmage
3 Massacre
2 Defense Grid

Pulling a Keeper out of the deck makes things easier as far as your win trigger goes. You'll dredge through more combo pieces reaching fewer creatures, and more likely hit a Salvagers instead of your other Keepers. Not needing as much mana during your combo turn will more likely give you the 1W needed to activate Salvagers. Is anyone else as excited about this?

[Ravage]

Summoner's Pact will have to be tested. While it seems solid, it's one of those cards that can end the game for you...in the bad way. Four mana may be a bit difficult to pay sometimes if your win condition happens to be removed. I'd be cautious...and I think we may just have to stick with what we have and decide against it, especially since it only fetches your Gamekeepers.

[Tacosnape]

Summoner's Pact looks interesting indeed. I intend to try it, but I'm not completely sold on it.

Is there a reason nobody runs Orim's Chant in this deck outside of the Alabama border?

To my knowledge there aren't many cards in existence (I can think of one) that disrupt this deck that aren't solved by either Pernicious Deed or Orim's Chant. That would in my mind make having four of each a pretty solid bet.

Deed handles Needle, Crypt, Mage, True Believer, Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, etc. Basically, anything that's a permanent.

Orim's Chant handles Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Pyrokinesis, Diabolic Edict, Stifle, etc. Basically, anything that's an Instant.

The only card that this doesn't really guard you from effectively is Gempalm Incinerator. But Deed will keep Incinerator from being lethal.

[T_B]

I must say, after winning FNM with this, I saw Blood moons (AHH), Needles, Crypts, and Goblin Grenade; I still won.

I have found a lot of the deck resilient, and 3 MD Deed was wonderful.

[Bane of the Living]

I must say, after winning FNM with this, I saw Blood moons (AHH), Needles, Crypts, and Goblin Grenade; I still won.

I have found a lot of the deck resilient, and 3 MD Deed was wonderful.

Ill go ahead and claim this deck more resilient to hate than Solidarity. You dont have the specific angle to attack such as islands, instants, and milling. Most people dont know what the deck is until you win the first game. You play proactive combo protection/disruption. I won through True Believers, Tormods Crypts, Null Rods, and at least a dozen StP's.

I think this is one of the most skill testing decks in the format which is a large reason it goes under played. I sat in my seat thinking over a turn winning hand on a few occasions rattling my brain over what to resolve in what order, what to wish for, how to play through swords, and what to therapy. After thinking of plays for a few minutes you can win through almost every given situation.


Summoner's Pact looks interesting indeed. I intend to try it, but I'm not completely sold on it.

Is there a reason nobody runs Orim's Chant in this deck outside of the Alabama border?

To my knowledge there aren't many cards in existence (I can think of one) that disrupt this deck that aren't solved by either Pernicious Deed or Orim's Chant. That would in my mind make having four of each a pretty solid bet.

Deed handles Needle, Crypt, Mage, True Believer, Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, etc. Basically, anything that's a permanent.

Orim's Chant handles Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Pyrokinesis, Diabolic Edict, Stifle, etc. Basically, anything that's an Instant.

The only card that this doesn't really guard you from effectively is Gempalm Incinerator. But Deed will keep Incinerator from being lethal.

I ran the deck at my local tourny and went 3-2. I lost to Cursed Totem not having a wish target since I played Mox Monkey and no Harmonic Sliver. I played 3 Chant, 3 Grip, and 2 Deed in my board. (2 deed main) I only brought the chants in against a control reanimator deck but I dont know how much better it was than Duress. Chant seems like it might not be worth it. Especially considering white is your third color. Duress and Therapy can handle anything.

[T_B]

I have not found a need for Chant. I personally do not see why simply because you can handle permenants (Deed + Blood) and spells (Duress + therapy). My SB is more geared towards getting the combo off, so stalling. Here it is.


Wishboard
1 Gamekeeper
1 Salvagers
1 City of Brass
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Keljorn Dead

Other
1 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Defence Grid
4 Ghostly Prison


Thoughts? Comments?

[Bane of the Living]

How is Ghostly Prison good? If aggro attacks into keeper they lose. When do you side the SSS? I usually just try for the combo always and fight the hate. When is it worth the alternative plan?

[Tacosnape]

Duress and Therapy isn't enough to win through a dedicated control deck, like Landstill, which packs hordes and hordes of countermagic and spot removal, nor a dedicated Aggro Control deck like Threshold, which has all its counters and STP in addition to Needle and sometimes Crypt and Stifle.

Additionally, Duress and Therapy is not always enough for you to win through Solidarity, which will hijack your LED storm count in a heartbeat, especially since half your deck will be gone in the first place. Nor are they enough to stop faster combo decks like Epic Storm and Iggy Pop. Even Burn can screw you up with Fireblast.

Chant fills all of these roles beautifully. It makes you the superior combo deck in most combo mirrors, and it lets you barrel through Control and Aggro-Control when backed up by Duress and Therapy.


If aggro attacks into keeper they lose.

This isn't true, as your combo can't go off at instant speed, and very often attacking into the Gamekeeper will cause you to flip over a Salvagers which will meet with a removal spell.

[T_B]

While they cannot attack into a Keeper, its REALLY nice to make sure they cannot explode (Goblins) and swing in for lethal.

Its also nice against LD and other Jank decks.

The SSS tranforms this deck into "The Game", where I side out Salvagers for it, so gamekeepers get it out.

@ Tacosnape: I agree, burn and counters can screw you over. I however, have almost never run into those (aside from StP and counters) so I feel that this is a better choice.

[Tash]

Well, I've taken the deck to 2 GPTs

Indianapolis:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32764.0

Louisville:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32970.0

That is a third and first place finish. I believe that the second list is close to optimal, considering my exhaustion, and still pulling out the 6-0-2 record.

[Kyachi]

I realize that this would pale in comparison to the new Hulk Flash version that will no doubt nullify this suggestion with it's banning or its speed, but adding blue for Flash in this deck allows for some more protection, as well as better MD answers to Flash "mirror" matches could be a possibility.

First, it automatically kills Gamkeepers on turn two as opposed to waiting on Dark Ritual to power them out on turn two and hope for a way to kill them.

Second, it lets you splash in hate cards against Hulk Flash, i.e. Stifle and Spell Snare, as well as using Intuition or Gifts to set up the Combo against decks that don't win on turn 0-2.

[Bane of the Living]

I realize that this would pale in comparison to the new Hulk Flash version that will no doubt nullify this suggestion with it's banning or its speed, but adding blue for Flash in this deck allows for some more protection, as well as better MD answers to Flash "mirror" matches could be a possibility.

First, it automatically kills Gamkeepers on turn two as opposed to waiting on Dark Ritual to power them out on turn two and hope for a way to kill them.

Second, it lets you splash in hate cards against Hulk Flash, i.e. Stifle and Spell Snare, as well as using Intuition or Gifts to set up the Combo against decks that don't win on turn 0-2.

When I heard about Flash it was Gamekeeper not Hulk I immediately thought of. It seems like an auto include. Infact if Im not playing Hulk Flash at the GP Im taking this with Flash in it!

Congrats on your finish at each GPT. I just made top 8 at my stores Tundra tourny with it. This deck is under played and under appreciated.

[nightshade81]

Here is some stolen tech that is simply disgusting. The conversion sideboard implemented to the one of the formats most controlling combo decks. The final list is somewhere between a sub-optimal list of Truffle Shuffle and the Rock. Personally I think this is what the deck needed to be pushed to the upper tiers. Without further a due, here is the list:

Lands: 20
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells: 35
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Summoners Pact
4 Tainted Pact
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood

Creatures: 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Sideboard: 15
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Maze of Ith
1 City of Brass
2 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
3 Damnation
3 Crime // Punishment

Board Plan
-2 Auriok Salvagers
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-4 Dark Ritual
+1 City of Brass
+2 Gigapede
+1 Grave-Shell Scarab
+3 Damnation
+3 Crime // Punishment

Post Board List:
Lands: 21
1 City of Brass
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells: 33
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
2 Summoners Pact
4 Tainted Pact
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation
3 Crime // Punishment

Creatures: 6
3 Gamekeeper
2 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab

There are many many was this deck can be shaped, and I do not consider the above list to be tuned 100% correctly. For starters we still have 3 Gamekeepers and 2 Summoners Pact in the deck post sideboarding. Actually you could board in another Gamekeeper if you wanted to board out something else; I don’t because I feel Gamekeeper to be the next weakest card in the deck and would like to board them out more then anything else left in the deck.

I order to be able to board Gamekeepers out we would have to cut Dark Ritual, which I have considered. In that case would have to come up with an acceleration plan that works both preboard and postboard. Maybe Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Ebon Stronghold, or Peat Bog. Have them over Dark Ritual would allow you to board out the Gamekeepers and free up MD slots if using the land acceleration approach. Although I think this hurts our match-up versus other decks too much so I haven’t done so.

Another change the deck could make is Cabal Pit for Bone Shredder so you can board in an additional land. The reason I don’t leave a mana producing land in the SB postboard is the aggro-control player shouldn’t ever let Living Wish resolve. If they do get Maze of Ith, it forces them to overextend for the rest of the game.

I haven’t done extensive testing with the deck, but postboard it seems to crush aggro-control into oblivion. Overall this is just a rough estimation of what the deck has the potential to do. I posted, without thorough testing because I wanted to get other peoples input and to start brainstorming good ideas.

Other cards that could be boarded in are Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, and Haunting Echoes. I’m also trying to fit Sensei's Divining Top main deck.

Some final notes:
Board plan for true control is somewhere around -2 Ritual/Pernicious Deed for 2 Gigapede and leaving one Grave-Shell Scarab in the SB to be wished for. The deck is less equipped to combo off via Gamekeeper but the match-up becomes favored with its alternative win conditions.

Board plan for TES/ETW Combo is -3 Innocent Blood for 3 Crime // Punishment. You can also put in Damnation but I find it too slow because we can generally combo if we have 4 mana. Another card if you’re worried about this match up is to put one The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as a Wish target.

EDIT: I copy pasted a wrong/old list

[Bane of the Living]

Why are you forsaking the combo against control decks? I find I just need to push through a key Duress or Deed to steal the game away. Maybe you should just focus the combo a bit more with cards like the Pact or get the Crime Punishments in the maindeck.

Your Truffle Shuffle sb is still hosed by graveyard hate so I dont see what the switch is doing for you really. 5 mana to recast Gigapedes just isnt reliable with a 21 land mana base. Especially fighting Wastelands, Daze and Meddling Mages.

[nightshade81]

The switch is mainly for aggro-control not true control. I would say traditional Gamekeeper is 50-50 preboard and generally 45-55 or worse postboard vs aggro-control. With the Truffle Shuffle SB it becomes more like 65-35 in our favor and even as high as 80-20 if the don't have any control hate. If you don't believe my number ask anyone who has played Truffle Shuffle versus Thres and they will tell you it's nearly unwinnable.

Gigapedes can be hard to cast sometimes but not ussally. Truffle Shuffle runs 23 land and 21 is not far from, plus like I said in my other post you can bring in one more land if you really want to to get the count to 22. But I mean think about it we have to get to 4 land a lot of the time to cast Gamekeeper is one more mana really that hard?

Meddling Mages are no problem postboard, Daze can be played around (usually hits a Gigapede), and who the hell plays aggro-control with Wastelands? Even if they do I only have 4 nonbasics main.

Personally I like trading in a near 50-50 match for an autowin when it's considered our hardest match.

[Bane of the Living]

I meant control matchups. Aggro control is easier imo since you have deed and innocent blood as relevant cards. Decks like Landstill really trump you since they run a total fuck you in the ass package. They run Wasteland.

[Tash]

I'd just like to mention the fact that I have taken down Landstill when it counts in tournament settings by resolving and sticking one key card. Sylvan Library.

Laugh now if you want, but when you cast duress 3 times in a row and then a cabal therapy before dropping Gamekeeper, you'll feel the power of it too.

[Bane of the Living]

I'd just like to mention the fact that I have taken down Landstill when it counts in tournament settings by resolving and sticking one key card. Sylvan Library.

Laugh now if you want, but when you cast duress 3 times in a row and then a cabal therapy before dropping Gamekeeper, you'll feel the power of it too.

Tash what is your current decklist? You played keeper at the GP right? Can you give us a brief outline of your non-flash matchups?

Ive cut Tainted Pact recently for Summoners and took the Deeds out of the maindeck once again to focus on combo asap.

[Tash]

Golden Grahams GP Columbus

Lands: 20
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Forest

Creatures: 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

Spells: 36
4 Living Wish
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Tainted Pact
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Chromatic Star
4 Sylvan Library
4 Dark Ritual
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chromatic Sphere

Sideboard 15
SB: 1 Gamekeeper
SB: 1 Auriok Salvagers
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Orzhov Guildmage
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 1 City of Brass
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

That was my GP list. To be honest, the matchups went something like this.

Goblins & Aggro: Cast deed and kill things, combo fast. Post board, bring in massacres and the extra deed, and take out Sylvan Library.

Thresh/Fish/Aggro Control: Same as other aggro, but make sure you stick Sylvan Library so your hand is stocked full of goodies like duresses, therapies, and a Pernicious deed to make them frown. Side in the same things as versus the aggro matchup, but side out 1x Wish, 1x Dark Ritual, 1x Tainted Pact, and 1x ...well whatever.

Landstill and other dedicated control: Landstill is decided by landing a Sylvan Library and stocking your hand full of goodies. The turn before you want to try going off (if they have a standstill in play), you cast tainted pact before discard and keep them down to 7 cards in hand, and then take apart their hand with good stuffs. Library makes sure you keep making your land drops, which is essential in the control matchup. Sideboard surprisingly for me has been siding in the Salvagers and the Gamekeeper so you have a higher threat density, and well, something will get sent farming, so you can wish for the guy later.

Combo: Duress and Therapy are your best friend, Engineered Explosives are also really really good too. If you want the Leylines still, side them in, and side out random one ofs. I think I did the 1x Living Wish/Pact/Dark Ritual. You're the control deck sometimes in this matchup. If you're playing non permanent based combo, you take out the deeds and then side in leyline. Personally I want the leylines out, and have been considering extirpate. they're not terrible in the end, but who knows with this new meta.

[nightshade81]

@Tash's list:

basically Sylvan Library > Innocent Blood, interesting theory. Allows you to find a more versatile cards that sac Gamekeeper (Therapy, Deed, Wish). I think it's a good plan overall. Having you considered running MD land that allow you to sac the keeper to make-up for the missing Innocent Bloods?

I'm still not sold that Sylvan Library > Sensei's Divining Top but that's minor.

[Bane of the Living]

I dont really know about that one. Innocent Blood is the best black removal spell in the format. I've used it on legions of Goblin Lackeys which surely saved me from losing those games. Its also killed a large sum of Meddling Mages naming combo cards. Since it's so cheap its often more effective against decks like Thresh since Deed is practically 4cc thanks to Daze.

Tash why the explosives?

[Tash]

@Trash's list:

basically Sylvan Library > Innocent Blood, interesting theory. Allows you to find a more versatile cards that sac Gamekeeper (Therapy, Deed, Wish). I think it's a good plan overall. Having you considered running MD land that allow you to sac the keeper to make-up for the missing Innocent Bloods?

I'm still not sold that Sylvan Library > Sensei's Divining Top but that's minor.

First. It's Tash. Not Trash. Sorry if I sound bitchy, years of elementary school ridicule made that one just not amusing.

Second, no. I find the manabase to be fairly optimal, and I try to work my manabase as best as I can around wastelands. Hence the 9 basics, along with all the fetches that can go get said basics.

Library > Top because of the fact that this decks curve doesn't forgive you for Top activations. Like I said in my nice long 10 game report on the drain "Sensei's Divining Top reads "Sphere of Resistance: Me" " While library is a good 2 drop and just keeps going from there, no more investment, just reaping the benefits from there on.

@BotL
Yes, Explosives. It's another way to take care of Chris Pikula. It got tossed in when I couldn't find a chromatic star before a tournament one day, and had to haphazardly toss in a card and grabbed the explosives. In the 3 games I got to play of testing (the tourney was canceled), Explosives made its presence known each time, taking out needles, crypts, and planar voids with no remorse.

[thefreakaccident]

not meaning to necro any older threads or anything, but I think this deck has everything it needs to compete and succeed in the current format.

First off, I have ben playing around with this deck for a while now... I think it is by far the most fun deck out there... and it is good!

I was wondering (If anyone will even look at this), what they thought of my current list, and tell me wht I could/should fix.

lands//17
4 scrubland
4 bayou
1 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
4 windswept heath
1 forest
2 swamp

creatures//5
3 game keeper
2 Auriok Salvengars

spells//38
4 duress
4 night's whisper
4 innocent blood
4 cabal therapy
2 hymm to tourach
4 dark ritual
4 lion's eye diamond
4 chromatic star
1 krosan reclamation
1 pyrite spell bomb
3 living wish
3 infernal tutor


sideboard//
4 pernicious deed
4 engineered plague (might become krosan grip/Orim's chant)
2 darksteel collosis
1 gamekeeper
1 auriok salvenger
1 viridian zealot (maybe become Urungatung)
1 boneshredder (might become the terror creature)
1 mesmiric fiend

the sideboard probably needs a lot of work, but any advice right now will be considered good advice... seeing as I don't have much experience with any deck not running blue.

[Braves]

Has this deck fallen off the radar?

[yawg07]

Last posts were ...

6-20-07
8-27-07

I'd say yes, it has indeed fallen off the radar.
Seems like a really fun deck, though.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yeah, someone in my meta will play it randomly, and I am talking about 1 person out of quite a few who plays it like once every couple of months. Really it isn't that hard to disrupt and it is just to slow and ineffecient in the current meta game. Don't get me wrong, it is a good deck, it just isn't suited to the current Legacy metagame.

[Michael Keller]

Yeah, someone in my meta will play it randomly, and I am talking about 1 person out of quite a few who plays it like once every couple of months. Really it isn't that hard to disrupt and it is just to slow and ineffecient in the current meta game. Don't get me wrong, it is a good deck, it just isn't suited to the current Legacy metagame.

This gives me an idea. This thread has been down for a while and will probably recede away, but it's good to see someone still interested in it.

[Braves]

Yeah, someone in my meta will play it randomly, and I am talking about 1 person out of quite a few who plays it like once every couple of months. Really it isn't that hard to disrupt and it is just to slow and ineffecient in the current meta game. Don't get me wrong, it is a good deck, it just isn't suited to the current Legacy metagame.

Lol hey Jason, its Kevin.

Im definitely thinking about putting this deck together for atleast some casual play.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hey man, this would be a lot of fun in casual, the infinite damage thing is really funny. I really did consider building this because it is a combo that can't fizzle once it gets going but decks like Goblins ravage it. Especially if Goblins are running 4x Port and some Wastelands. It is immune to the general combo hate like Chalice and 3sphere but sucks a lot more against straight up counterspells where as storm combo usually just laughs at them and casts Empty the Warrens. It also dies to Leyline of the Void, however it does have solid answers to all of the above hate cards, but it is just to slow.

[nodahero]

are you on crack? This deck folds to chalice and 3-spehere like no other... even a thorn or sphere of resistance cocks this... if they chalice at 0 or 1 you either have no infi mana loop or you have no kill (if pyrite is still the method) not to mential making Diamond cost any more stops the combo because the loop netted 1 mana if any of those arifacts spheres or thorn are out you net zero mana again stopping it...

You say it has answers to all the above... what answers? Also while on the Empty topic if you wanted to you could actually use storm as a kill by simply generating infi mana and using the bombs to draw ur deck until you get a kill...

[Michael Keller]

are you on crack? This deck folds to chalice and 3-spehere like no other... even a thorn or sphere of resistance cocks this... if they chalice at 0 or 1 you either have no infi mana loop or you have no kill (if pyrite is still the method) not to mential making Diamond cost any more stops the combo because the loop netted 1 mana if any of those arifacts spheres or thorn are out you net zero mana again stopping it...

You say it has answers to all the above... what answers? Also while on the Empty topic if you wanted to you could actually use storm as a kill by simply generating infi mana and using the bombs to draw ur deck until you get a kill...

Are you on crack? This deck top 8'ed at Worlds not too long ago. And the cards fore-mentioned were populous in sideboards across the board even then. I'm not saying it's overly viable anymore, but this deck hardly folds to Chalice given the tools available today - especially when you board in Darksteel Colossus.

Either way, if someone is going to advance the deck or port it for today's metagame, I'd be interested in a revision. Otherwise, what's the point?