[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Sasan]

Hey folks, I want to discuss with you the relatively new bUrg deck, that came to life during GP Strassbourg 2013. It is mainly invented by my friend Carsten Linden, a famous German RUG Delver player. The GP winner Florian Koch had impressive results with the deck and helped to improve the list (he suggested the mana base in its current form). I play the deck since the beginning of its life cycle. It is the only deck I play - with some recent tournament successes. I even played it "in the dark" before Carsten introduced the deck to the public as he wanted to keep the deck secret before the GP.

There is an older bUrg Thread here on TheSource and it is a good one. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25879-Deck-Castlevania-%28A-K-A-Burg-or-BUG-in-a-RUG%29) But the primer is not helping at all, as it is basically a list without any explanations. I have asked the thread starter if I can make a new primer. As he did not answer my request I have started this new thread. We need a thread with a good primer that is updated regularly, so forgive me that I decided not to post this as a normal answer in the existing thread. As I talk regularly with the inventors of the deck, I think it is safe to say that this is the best place for all information concerning bUrg.

So let us start.

What is the bUrg?

It is a tempo deck. Tempo decks try to win through cheap and efficient creatures, mana denial in form of Stifle and Wasteland. They want to generate a tempo advantage in comparison to the opponent and keep him in the early game state with free counters like Daze and Force of Will. With these free/cheap spells and creatues we can play far less lands than the opponent. That generates us a virtual card advantage.


The List

Here is the state of the art list for the current international meta game:



Deck: Official bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Fire Covenant
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll



Main Deck

Creatures

Deathrite Shaman: Mana dork, Gravehate, a constant one sided sulfuric vortrex in one one-drop creature. Deathrite Shaman is the reason to play this deck over RUG Delver, as he can transform bad matchups to good ones before boarding. Shaman is extremly flexible and gives us a tempo boost that can compensate for the tempo drawback of Daze on the play. We want to play four Shamans in order to have a stable mana base.

Nimble Mongoose: If you look at the legacy format, you will clearly see that it is full of removal spells. The best ones are Lighnting Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Dismember, Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay. With that in mind you can only think of one of the best creatures in Legacy: Nimble Mongoose. He is resitent to spot removal, a good clock after reaching thresh, bigger than most creatures in the format that can block. He is the all star versus control matchups and good versus aggro decks. He profits from the fact that our plan is to counter or destroy every key threat of the opponent.

Delver of Secrets: A 3/2 flying creature for one mana? That is a hell of a good creature to deal the first points of damage. He has evasion and our deck consists of 29 spells so that Delver will often flip blindly. Delver has a downside: He is pretty easy removable. But if he cannot be handeled, he wins the games on his own. It is the best win condition versus combo decks.

That leaves us with only 1-2 creature Slots. We have several options here. We want a big baddie in these slots:

Tarmogoyf: He was the most efficient beater in legacy. For 2 mana you get a 4/5 or 5/6 that can end games really quickly. But Gurmag Angler has outclassed him. Goyf had its time.

Gurmag Angler: Meet the new, but better Tarmogoyf. We play only one or two of this guy, as the Delve mechanic can have a dissynergy with Threshold. Bonus: He has "half-shrourd" as he dodges Decay and Bolts.


Some people suggest playing Young Pyromancers. They are wrong. A quick comparison will prove that:

Young Pyromancer is better than Gurmag Angler...
... in the early game - he is good for speed starts and competes with Shaman, Delver and Wasteland/Stifle in that game state.
...versus Lilliana decks.
...versus decks that rely on Swords or Decay as main removal.


Gurmag Angler is better than YP...
... in the late game - therefore we can only run 1-2 of him as we only need him end game to seal the deal.
... due to the fact that he cannot be removed easily. Nearly all non-combo decks run Deathrite Shamans and therefore cheap spot removal is prevalent in most decks. This removal can also kill YP.


Gurmag Angler has some huge benefits. Goyf is not too bad in the situations where YP shines, it is ok. YP is really bad or not so great in situations where Gurmag Angler shines. As you see, playing Gurmag Angler is a more balanced approach. As we only have two slots Gurmag Angler is superior because YP loves to be a four-off. Furthermore YP stretches the mana base (you need red instead of green in contrast to all creatures besides the blue Delver). With YP you will get moren often mana screwed.

True-Name Nemesis: This creature has wrapped up the metagame. It has evasion, can chump block all creatures in legacy and a resolved batterskull. It cannot be killed by spot removal. So it has the wall abilities of a Gurmag Angler/Goyf, the evasion of Delver and the "shroud" part of Nimble Mongoose. The card is utterly great versus midrange and control decks. With the high mana costs it is a no-go versus combo. Versus Tempo, the answer of the question "Gurmag versus Nemesis" is not clear: Nemesis is not removable for Grixis Delver players if it lands, but that is the problem due to the high casting costs and the sided in Pyroblasts in the postboard games. On the one hand, a resolved True-Name Nemesis is a clock that does need to be protected. We can concnetrate on screwing the other tempo player. On the other hand, Gurmag is far better castable and can only be removed by Dismembers. That is why Gurmag blanks half of the removal spells of Grixis Delver (Forked Bolt, Lightning Bolt) - he is half-removal proof. So Gurmag and True-Name are at least equally good versus tempo decks. So what is the conclusion? Gurmag is better versus combo, equally good versus tempo, worse versus midrange decks. True-Name Nemesis is a great card that can be included in our deck up to a 2-off. I opted for a split between Gurmag and True-Name.

Vendilion Clique: This one is great for meta-games that are full of Nemesis and combo decks. It flies over Nemesis and can. Clique is also good versus Jund as it can put crucial combo pieces on the bottom of the library. Currently True-Name and Gurmag are better all-rounders in most situations. Clique dies to the cheap rmeovals that every deck now Plays due to the rise of Deathrite Shaman.

Sylvan Libary: Before you call me crazy let me explain why I put Sylvan Library in the creature category. The card is like Jace and can help us to constantly cantrip and draw business - so it acts as Mongoose or Delver number five. Sylvan Library gives us an edge versus grindy matchups. It is nuts versus combo as the life loss is irrelevant. Sylvan Library makes our mana base better. As the meta moved away from Decay decks the card is really awesome right now. Sylvan Library however competes with the creature slots. And that is the reason I put it in that category. One does not play more than one main deck library.

Which creatures should I play?

I introduced to you creatures that are playable in bUrg.

It is a matter of playstyle and meta game which ones you play.

But we can agree on some points:

- Tempo decks do not want to play more than 11-12 creatures normally. It is a proven and therefore the right number. Ok, Grixis Delver Plays 15 creatures but the deck is a "midrange tempo" deck that Plays 10 (!!!) easily removable creatures. They need more gas than us. Plus. Shamans are not counted as "real" creatures, as they normally serve as mana in the first turns.

- The deck would not be a good tempo deck without a playset of Delvers. Fact.

- bUrg needs Shamans to run 4 colours and not to be too greedy with the mana base. A playset of Shamans is a must-have.

- We need as many shroud creatures as possible. Shroud creatures gain a virtual card advantage as they render 7-9 removal spells of the opponent to dead cards. With the low creature count tempo decks need some sticking creatures. Versus control decks like Miracles a shroud creature can win games on his own. I suggest playing at least 5-6 shroud or half-shroud creatures where at least 4 of them should be real shroud creatures.

The rest is up to you. Just take the 4 points above into consideration.

I play with the following configuration:

4 Delvers
4 Shamans
4 Mongeese
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

I ended with 14 creatures as Shamans are not there for making damage in most cases.

Mana Denial

Legacy consists of gready mana bases with lots of fetchlands and duals - Czech Pile and Grixis prove that fact. We want to punish that with Wasteland and Stifle. Wasteland trades 1 for 1 but did you look at the mana curve of the deck? It is full of 1,1,1,1 and 1 mana spells. With that in mind Wasteland does not bother us much as we only need 2 colored mana sources to cast every spell in the deck. We can sometimes prevent the opponent of casting dangerous but not so cheap spells. Note: Wasteland is not a land. It is a sorcery for 0 mana that reads: You cannot play a land this turn, destroy target non basic land. Remember that always. The full playset of Wastelands is a must.

Stifle gives us a tempo advantage as it helps us to keep our free counter spells alive even during the mid game. Stifle has so many other functions than only countering fetchland activiations. It helps us against Rest in peace, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Liliana of the Veil (the minus 2 ability), Storm triggers, Deathrite Shaman activiations, Ichroid and so on. As we are a 4-colour deck we must run Stifles and at least three copies are advised. bUrg needs to protect its mana base.

Counter

Daze and Force of Will are fee counters that help us to interact with the opponent even if we are tapped out. Daze saves our creatures. Daze is a card that is neglected by some. Daze gives us an advantage even if we dont have it in hand. The opponent must decide if he wants to wait a turn with his spell to cast it Daze proof or if he risks casting it. Force of Will makes card disadvantage but is needed to counter must answer spells of the opponent - especially versus combo. These both counter spells are the bread and butter of tempo decks and should always be played in playsets.

Spell Snare is a great meta call. Spell Snare is a hard counter that can interact with all key spells of all decks to beat. Spell Pierce is more flexible and can protect our creatures from removal. Spell Pierce also hits many key spells and is useable versus Sneak Attack whereas Snare is a blank. I would recommend running 3 Spell Snare as it helps us in the close matchups. In the matchups where Spell Pierce is better than Snare we can afford to lose game 1 as we are clearly superior after boarding.

One potential one-off in the counter suite is Izzet Charm. It is a real flexible card as it is a Spell Pierce, creature removal and careful study in one card. It helps our Mongeese to reach Thresh faster, can answer a Shaman or Young Pyromancer and counter really relevant cards. It is cc2 so keep in mind how many clunky cards your list can afford. You should not play that many cc2 spells.

One new secret tech is Counterspell. Yes good old Counterspell. It hits everything and is a hard counter versus TNN. As the matches versus the meta defining TNN.decs tend to go long and are grindy Counterspell is also a late game bomb. The card is always a worthy consideration.

To sum it up you have 11-12 slots for counter magic and 8 slots are fix (FoW and Daze). The other 3-4 slots are up to you personal playstyle. Whether you use all of the four slots for countermagic or have three pieces of countermagic and one extra removal is up to you. Speaking of Removal...


Removal

We need some cards that can remove permanents. You clearly cannot counter everything.

Lighnting Bolt: It is the best removal legacy has to offer. It gives our deck reach and can remove most creatures in the format. Bolt is not as clunky as the two mana spell Abrupt Decay. Lightning Bolt gives us a virtual card advantage. As the opponent knows that we play with Bolts he must decide if he blocks a creature or not. Many times I attack with a Mongoose and no Bolt in hand versus bigger creatures if I need the damage points. Nearly all times Mongoose does not get blocked as the opponent fears a bolt and therefore 6 damage to the blocker. And if the opponent is on low life he must always play versus a virtual bolt, as he can always be dead. That forces bad plays. A clear must-include as a playset.

Abrupt Decay: Abrupt Decay is our swiss army knife versus nearly all relevant permanents in legacy. More than two Decays main deck is not the right move. With the comeback of Miracles decks two Decays can be reasonable. But I already suggest playing Spell Snares and that helbs for that matchup. I would move Decay to the sideboard as the meta has adapted and most threats are Decay-proof.

Dismember: Dismember is also a great option as a removal. Two Decays often feels clunky and Dismember is a card that can be cast of an Wasteland. It removes every creature in the format - except of Griselbrand, True-Name Nemesis and Emrakul - on turn one on the draw. The life loss is not relevant as you have the life gain ability of Shaman to make up for it. Versus Midrange decks you can get greedy as your life is only a resource and it is enough to win at 1 life. In the tempo mirror however you have to use Dismember carefully, especially if the opponent plays Bolts and has reach. Versus combo Dismember gets boarded out but it can also destroy a Griselbrand in game 1 with the help of another of your creatures or a bolt. If you run three Spell Snares than many non-creature targets that Decay can answer are covered with these counter spells. That is why it is highly understandable to run 1-2 Dismembers.

Golgari Charm: Meet the newest main deck tech. If you look at the decks to beat - Grixis, Mircales. Czech Pile, Lands, Stompy and Sneak and Show -, Golgari Charm can solve many problems. It kills Young Pyromancer and its Tokens, True-Name Nemesis and is therefore real good versus Grixis Delver. It is a surprise for Miracles Players as it can destroy Search for Azcanta and Counterbalance. Versus Czech Pile it gets rid of all Strix that can ruin your day if the opponent happens to have more than one in play. That happens more often than you think. It can save your creaturs from Decay. However, the card is dead versus Eldrazi Stompy. Versus Lands it kills 60 % of their search engine (Manabond and Exploration). Versus Sneak and Show the card is not that good as a good player will not let you destroy the Sneak Attack before activation. If you consider all matchups versus the decks to beat and take into consideration that Grixis Delver is THE most played and successful deck, Golgari Charm gets the nod and is included as a one-off in the maindeck. Note that the dissynergy with True-Name Nemesis is not really relevant as we only play 1-2 Nemesis and if we are ahead we do not cast Charm. It is our comeback-tool versus Grixis and can win matches that seem to be lost.

Where the question if you play 2 Decays, a split between the latter and Dismember or only Dismembers or even my crazy Golgari Charm/Dismember split is a highly controversial one, one thing is certain: 4 Lightning Bolts are a must!

Cantrips

Brainstorm is the best Spell in Legacy. Brainstorm is played wrong even by the best players. Here are general rules: Do not waste your Brainstorm. It is not a card for the first turns. If you have a bad start hand, just mulligan and not hope to have a better one with Brainstorm. If you are ahead on the board just hold back your Brainstorm. Play it as late as possible. And do not try to play as much lands. Play two lands and hold all other lands in hand. When it is time to cast Brainstorm - please please only during your turn in sorcery speed - play one fetchland, cast Brainstorm, draw three cards, lay down two lands that sit in your hand (at least one extra land should be there besides the fetchland that you have laid this turn), crack the fetchland and voila: You have just had an Ancestral Recall. You have to play that card as a playset.

Ponder is our second cantrip. It gives us extra knowledge of our next cards, you can rearrange them and plan your next steps. Ponder makes unplayable hands playable. Ponder + land + 4 Spells is playable, witout Ponder the hand is garbage. Note that you can play Ponder during the first turns actively. It is not comparable to Brainstorm. But please do not try to play ponder to flip a Delver. You need it for better occassions. Delver will flip automatically due to our high spell count. Running four Ponder is a must because tempo decks need at least 8 real cantrips - Gitaxian Probe for example only replaces itself and is therefore a semi-cantrip and not a real one.

I run 0 Gitaxian Probes unlike the Grixis Delver lists that include 3-4. The perfect information Probe provides is not necessary if you are a skilled player and have a deck that can answer everything like bUrg. We do not play Cabal Therapy so Probe is not necessary in bUrg. As But if you want to play more agressively Probe is a good way to boost your Mongeese. You can run 2 Probes if you run only 2 Spell Pierces/Spell Snares/Izzet Charms in the counter flex slots.

Sylvan Library has been discussed in the creature department.

Mana Base

We play 14 lands - Wasteland is not a land, it is a sorcery (see above). The deck is hungry for blue mana (Delver, Cantrips, Daze) but also wants to cast most spells with only two lands in play.


That is especially the case if you run two main deck Decays. Then you want to havea land configuration that can cast a Decay and every other spell in the deck at only 2 mana. That is why you need a Taiga then. Taiga and Underground Sea are all that we need. A third Undergroud Sea cannot reach that. We need the Taiga to play our Ancestral Recall aka Brainstorm like described above.

The debate whether to play Taiga or Bayou or even Badlands is a tricky one:

We assume that we want to be able cast all spells with just two lands. Then we have three options:

1. Taiga and Underground Sea,
2. Badlands and Tropical Island,
3. Bayou and Volcanic Island. Note: For Decay we need another extra green land in play.

With Taiga you can cast all 15 non-blue spells. With Badlands only 9. With Bayou 11. All three duals are bad, as they do not produce blue mana but Taiga is the least bad choice.

Bayou is out of question as you need a three land configuration to cast Decay and all other spells.

Taiga wins versus Badlands due to the following additional reasons: With Taiga and Underground Sea every third land can cast our crucial sideboard spell Fire Covenant. Badlands/Tropical has not this ability. Playing badlands makes you dependent on Tropical Island and therefore you always have to choose whether to cast a threat with Tropical Island or hold up blue mana for Stifle/Counterspells/Cantrips. With Taiga in play you can cast your threats with the non-blue source and have a blue one open for your instants/sorceries. Although Lightning Bolt is the exception from that rule, the choice between casting a threat or bolting is not as hard as the choice of threat casting versus holding blue mana open.


But what if you only play one oder zero Decay main deck? Then there is no need for Taiga. You fetch for Tropical and Volanic first like in RUG Delver and cast every spell in the deck with these two lands. If you happen to draw the one-off Decay or Charm or Gurmag Angler you can then fetch for one USea. But most of the time you will not need the Underground Sea. Deathrite Shaman serves as a mana dork in the first turns so the ping ability is only relevant late game. That is why USea is far less relevant in a built with only one/zero main deck Decays. But we still need two Underground Seas as we have powerful black sideboard cards. Without Taiga you have a all-blue mana base and that is a huge plus as you will never have hands with Taiga/Wasteland so the mulligan rate decreases drastically. The opponent cannot cut you off colors that easy without Taiga because you have nearly always blue for your cantrips. If you play the One/Zero-Decay list and therefore with only blue duals then you can run 3 Tropical Islands as green is your most important color. If you want to reach Thresh faster you can run 8 fetches. But beware that you cannot run sideboard cards with GG casting costs (like Thrun) if you only have two Tropical Islands. As the meta does not force us to play Decays in the main deck we can have a solid mana base with only blue duals.



After the main deck has been discussed - and it is fix without flex slots, we come to the diverse Sideboard that makes clear that we can have an answer against everything. That is the reason that bUrg will always be good, even if the meta changes. We can play the best cards due to our 4 color approach.


Sideboard

Fix Slots

Fire Covenant: It is one of the All-Stars of the sideboard. Fire Covenant is a one-sided Wrath of God with instant speed. Life loss is not important, as we want to play the aggro role against all decks where we board the card in. We only board it in versus decks, that have creatures as a win condition and have not heavy counter magic - so it is not against the RUG Delver matchup. Fire Covenant is a real unfair card and I do not know why the card is only worth a few pennies. Not a sinlge tempo deck can achieve what we can with Fire Covenant: Reset a bad board state. One of the main reasons to play bUrg. Play at least one. Two is also highly advised if you find the room in your Sideboard.

Golgari Charm: Meet the second reason in the sideboard to play bUrg. It is a one-time Dread of Night versus Death and Taxes/Maverick, can kill Argothian Enchantress or all Empty the Warren tokens, save our creatures from Decay, kill many Goblins. It is a blowout versus Elves. It is a beast versus Young Pyromancer, too. Certainly a really strong card in today's True-Name Nemesis days - note that you harm your own one-off Nemesis with Golgari Charm. But that lacking synergy is not a problem at all. If you are ahead in the damage race with your own Nemesis do not cast Golgari Charm. If you are far behind, just cast it. As you want to have that deal-breaking sideboard card in every game you board it in, you need to play two copies if you do not have already one in the main deck.

Submerge: It is a free spell and fits perfect in our tempo plan. But there are not that many Tropical Islands in the meta right now. Grixis only plays one. Submerge is therefore not that good anymore.

5 Anti-Como cards including 2 Pyroblasts: We have the best combo matchup of all fair decks. We want to keep that good matchup even after boarding when the other decks bring in their hate. It has been tested a million times and believe me that 5 anti-combo sideboard cards is the right number. Do not go down from these numbers. You are free to choose which ones you need. But Pyroblast is a must in the True-Name Nemesis meta. Pyroblast has so many other applications than combo - that is why it is needed. Note: Pyroblast is superior to REB as the former has more synergy with Shaman - it can target anything. Flusterstorms are our combo breakers. Spell Pierce has more applications. Counter Spell is a suprising hard Counter versus all fair decks and good versus combo. Whether you decide to play with Spell Pierce, Flusterstorms, a on-Off Counterspell to round up your anti-combo-package is up to you.

Life from the Loam: As we have a greedy mana base, we can use Loam to stablize it. As many midrangde decks in the Format cannot answer a wasteland lock, Loam is also a good card versus the opponent. That is why a one off Loam - think of it as the 19th land or as extra hate versus midrange decks - is great thing in the current meta game. A real powerful one-off as it can end games if drawn. That is what you want from a singleton.

Ancient Grudge/Artifact Mutation: Hits all Equipemts and is great versus Eldrazi. As equipping a Nemesis seems to be cool these days Ancient Grudge is a must-include now. Grixi often plays with Jittes in the sideboard. One Grudge is sufficient if you have two main deck Decays. The Decays can hit nearly the same targets as Grudge - concerning Batterskull Decay can at least hit the token. If you only run one/zero Decay main deck you need another artifact destroying card. It can be another Grudge or the new secret tech - courtesy of Kai Thiele - Artifact Mutation. The card can give us an advantage in close games. Where Grudge is the better artifact removal, Artifact Mutation is an ideal companion if you need a second piece of artifact removal from the board.

Abrupt Decay: A flexible sideboard card that is our swiss-army knive. Play one if you have zero main deck Decays. It helps versus many obscure matchups.

Grave Hate: All good decks and some nasty combo decks need the grave. I think at least two-three piece of gravehate (Nihil Spellbomb, Grafdiggers Cage, Surgical Extraction) may be needed to complete the main deck hate of shamans. Nihil Spellbomb is the best choice vs the mirror RUG Del Delver. It shrinks the opponents' Mongeese. Great Stuff!



Flex Slots

That leaves us not much flex slots. There are many playable cards there.

Here is a list of playable cards:


-Green Sun's Zenith: The card is another Mongoose or Deathrite Shaman. It is great versus removal heavy and control decks. It is also another grave hate (=Shaman).

-Reanimate: Think of it as another Mongoose that can trick the opponent and steal a Griselbrand for example.

-Dread of Night: Byebye Death and Taxes and Maverick.

-Sulfuric Vortrex: Great versus Miracles and all sorts of control decks. You need sometimes a way to push through the last points of damage.

-Compost: Another secret tech of the deck. It is another piece of grave hate versus Dredge - you can draw 10-12 cards per turn so that you can find multiple Delvers and your main grave hate - and helps a lot Czech Pile. It wins the game for us.

-Vendillion Clique: It has evasion, can come turn two with Shaman, is great versus combo. He can destroy all planeswalkers. It can fly over Nemesis. It pushes through the last points of damage, blanks equipment and cannot be stalled by Nemesis. Being a 3-drop is never a problem as the flash ability makes it possible to cast it EOT.

-Grim Lavamancer: He can eliminate all creatures. Grim + Bolt = byebye Gurmag Angler. He has a anti-synergy with Mongoose and Deatrite, so it can only played as a one off in the sideboard.

-Gurmag Angler: A Gurmag from the board helps versus creature decks like Goblins that are not played that much anymore.

-Mind Harness: Beat the opponent with his own Goyf or Knight? Sounds good. A bit mana intense. And not right in the current meta.

-Thoughtseize: A card that should not be boarded in versus fair decks. The concept of tempo decks is to generate an advantage by by countering a spell for which mana has been tapped. Thoughtseize cannot reach that goal. Versus combo the card can help a lot by attacking the combo player from two angles: counters and discard spells. But beware that you will still need a good amount of counterspells in your sideboard besides at least two copies of Thoughtseize. As bUrg has already a really good combo matchup without Thoughtseizes, my advice is to save sideboard slots for the more difficult matchups and not to include Thoughtseize. Beware that other discard spells (Hymn, Therapy, Duress etc) are unplayable in bUrg.

-True-Name Nemesis and Troll Ascetic: True-Name Nemesis is highly castable as it only requires U and can come down on turn 2 with Shaman. It is brillant versus removal heavy midrange decks. The control matchup is far better with a resolved Nemesis. A real good sideboard card. But remember that you often play 2 Golgari Charms. That is why you can harm your own Nemesis. Do not play more than one in your sideboard for that reason or just play Troll Ascetic. Another good hard-to-kill creature that dodges all removal.

-Ashiok: A highly underplayed Planeswalker. Its main application is to break the tempo mirror. Ruining the opponent's brainstorms and grabbing creatures is strong. Versus midrange or control decks with strong creatues Ashiok is the real deal, too. With 5 loyality counters when it hits, it is hard to remove. Nemesis needs 3 full turns to kill an Ashiok. That is why Ashiok reads in these cases: You gain 9 life. It stalls the board versus Nemesis and makes it possible to attack through it. And in the course of the three turns the chances are good that we can steal a useful creature with him. Ashiok is therefore perhaps the best planeswalker to fight Nemesis. Versus Miracles it rather often hits ultimate or can grab Snapcasters. Just try the card before dismissing it. A good card in today's meta.

-Another Dual land or even a basic island: And now we come to an innovation. I must admit it: bUrg can have some moments where the mana base does not work out - especially versus opponents playing Wastelands AND Stifles/Ports. But that is not common these days. RUG is not played that much anymore and Grixis barely plays Stifles. Feel free to run blue duals in that spot or even a basic island. But do not run a fetch land as we need a Stifle-proof option here. The land is boarded in versus tempo mirrors. Those matchups come down to the question who has more lands in play. It is also boarded in versus matchups where I board out our protection suite - aka Stifle. It is awkard to know that Stifle does not have value in a matchup but needs to stay in to protect your mana base from opposing wastelands.


-Thrun, the last Troll: If you run 3 Tropical Islands Thrun is a valid choice as it is game ending versus control and tempo decks. My secret star versus all fair decks to beat in the meta. Try it!

- Bitterblossom: It is a great control card for grindy matchups. After all the removal has been spent Bitterblossom comes and gives you a huge board advantage. It is also great versus Terminus. A new secret tech that was introduced by Carsten Linden during GP Paris 2014.

Here is a list of tested cards that do not work:

-All Planeswalkers: Four Mana is too intense for this deck. Exception: Ashiok (which only costs 3).

-Young Pyromancer: We need at least 4 copies of him to abuse him, but we do not want to cut Mongooses and he has no synergy with Mongoose. YP belongs to Grixis Delver.

-Entomb: A good way to have a virtual extra copy of Ancient Grudge and Loam. But it makes card disadvantage. We do not need more than one Loam in the board and Grudge is only a flex slot card.

-Ooze: He is too slow to make an impact. Play with another Gurmag/True-Name if you want more creeatures from the board. Ooze is only playable as a main deck creature instead of Goyfs. Goyfs are the more all around creatures. That is why Ooze did not make the cut. But it is understandable if a bUrg player chooses to play two main deck Oozes in a combo heavy meta.


How to play the deck


There are three main types of matchups: The combo ones, the midrange ones and the tempo mirrors.

Versus combo you play reactively and try to answer every key spell and daze all cantrips of the opponent aggressively. If you have at least two lands, cast a one drop creature and swing with it while you continue your reactive play.

Against midrange decks you try to make a perfect tempo start with Shaman, Stifle/Waste or Delver - at least one of those starts should be granted as you have a great chance to get a starting hand with at least one those things. You can easily make some serious damage with your tempo plan. Then you switch to the control role: Try to counter the opponent's plays. After the opponent has found his way in the game, try to play your removal. The board position gets even during that time. Then try to find Gurmag/True-Name- aggro mode again - with your cantrips. Cast it. Win.

Versus the tempo mirror, try to keep a hand with 3 lands. Try to play reactively without greedy all-in starts. We need to play the control role. We have anwers for everything and have so much good creatures that must be answered by the opponent so that we will win the game in the long run. Grixis has to play the aggressive role due to their sheer amount of creatures. We do not want to race them, we want to dsirupt them.


Why Play bUrg?


Grixis Delver has proven that it has the potential to win every tournament. bUrg is the better version of it. We can do everything Grixis Delver does, but in a more crazy way. The problematic matchups become good ones and we have anwers to everything pre-board. Our sideboard is fantastic and will help us to be always a meta factor. Just go and play the deck and win some tournaments.


I hope you enjoyed the primer.

[Sasan]

Believers in bUrg

Here I present some statements of the users why they play bUrg.



You would play RUGB over Rug or BUG for access to all 4 colors, to say it simple.

It is my experience that tempo decks really want Bolt to have reach. Granted, I haven't played a ton of games with BUG Delver, but I've always liked having Bolt in the deck as a way to close out games.

The reason you would want BURG over RUG is because of Deathrite Shaman and Decay.

Deathrite Shaman really is just that good. It is good against Rug, it's good against opposing Shamans, it is good against graveyard strategies. He just does a lot of work. In addition, you are playing less 2 drops, which makes holding up one mana situational counters/stifle more easy.

Decay also deals with some problem cards that RUG struggles with, like Counterbalance. In addition, it kills opposing creatures, it is versatile. In a pinch you might be able to float mana or use your Shamans to kill a Bloon Moon.

Decay is a better "flex" slot than RUG has access too.

....


I agree with Personalbackfire. I would like to add...

Honestly, the mana base isn't really that "shaky." It's a blue deck at its core, and every spell costs one (except for abrupt decay.) Every once in a while I find myself being tilted off of mana, but very rarely, and for the most part, being a tempo deck, the opponent is likely putting themselves behind with all of our stifles and wastelands and shamans. As well, Deathrite really is the adhesive that makes the deck possible. He keeps ANT off of threshold, negates past in flames, keeps RUG off of threshold. He's a swiss army knife that allows for more explosive mana in the early game to use for more disruption (our combo matchup is more definitively better than other tempo decks), deploying threats, and cantripping. Near the end of the game, he circumvents copious amounts of blockers to end the game quickly. As well, he allows a lot of tempo can be had even while on the draw when playing a shaman and following it up with a wasteland and stifle, while still actively deploying threats and leaving counter mana up. Deathrite makes it much more difficult for other tempo decks to just run away with the game off of a wasteland.

Bolt allows for tighter play and it can be used to close out games, rather than running 4 abrupt decays (which is clunky and would force us to run more lands instead of spells.) like BUG. Having access to both allows for tighter play and powerful options in dealing with permanents RUG normally can't deal with.

The mana base is initially very difficult to navigate, but becomes much easier with plenty of practice.

Also, having access to sideboard cards like Fire Convenant is powerfully rewarding and it works to shore up those troublesome mid range matchups. Our matchup against Jund is significantly better than RUG's.


p.s. Spell Snare is the tits. It stops nearly every game ending two drop for us at all points in the game. I don't care to know for certain that my opponent has a stone forge in their hand. It is in my best interest to assume it is there, and I'm much more comfortable knowing that I can counter it when they play it.


I used to play RUG. After making the switch, I tried to go back to RUG, but I was disappointed in it's lack of relative explosiveness, utility, and clunkiness in tapping out for tarmogoyf. I returned to BURG with more spell snares and I haven't looked back, nor have I ever been disappointed.


I don't want to rehash what everyone else has already said, because I couldn't say it any better myself.

What i will say is that I wanted to play a deck with the best 1 drops in the format.

Delver =/= not fooling around and we're putting you on a clock
Deathrite is "brainstrom" it fixes your draws, it fixes your mana, its a clock, its defensive, its control it simply is what you need it to be
Brainstorm is Brainstorm' nuff said
Bolt, if you're playing tempo without red you're doing it wrong
Mongoose, so much better than Geist of Saint Traft. Faster, comes out easier.

The deck has a lot of play, the ability to clock with delver AND deathrite in the goyf mirror is huge.
Abrupt decay fixes the problems of counterbalance and chalice of the void presents to RUG
Abrupt decay, Spell Snare and Golgari Charm answers Rest in Peace, which RUG has no answers

It's RUG with better technology, better suited for today's Legacy threats


Lots of proponents of the deck ; ) I'd just like to add that the combination of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt, and ALL of the good sideboard cards really gives the deck a lot of play and many options in any single game. It feels great to have multiple outs to equipment, Tarmogoyf, and all of the other troublesome permanents in the field. Except for Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan. Those cards are a real beating.

I think I like the new sideboard, too. I was confused at cutting Spell Pierce at first but now that I think about it, that card's never been very good for me. Combo decks play around it all day and we have better options against planeswalkers. The only time I miss it is against MUD, but I think my strategy against that deck is to wake up on the winning side of the fluctuation curve each morning. Clique is still really good against Sneak Show and combo but I think that having better cards against Death and Taxes, Patriot, and the midrange decks is worth it. Ashiok is interesting. So far, he just eats Abrupt Decay and gets attacked by Nemesis. I haven't managed to steal a creature yet but there is time ; )


This just in, Ashiok can steal Grave Titan. I'm sold.


That's it, I'm sold. I'm getting Ashiok in. :tongue:

Anyway, for the bUrg VS the world argument:

Deathrite Shaman has warped Legacy into a format wherein there are only 2 types of "decks to beat" right now - those that play Deathrite Shaman (Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves, hell even Maverick plays them now), and those that try to beat Deathrite Shaman (faster combo decks like ANT, Sneak Show, white decks like UWR, DnT that pack RiP). OK so maybe except RUG... RUG's still in there primarily because of its consistency and the amount of followers the deck has accumulated since its conception.

With that, why the hell not pack DRS into RUG? Honestly, the tempo mirror feels almost 1 sided sometimes. We can shrink their Goose, they can't. We can get rid of their Goyf, they can't rid us of ours. I've almost never encountered mana issues with the deck, primarily and ironically because of DRS himself - the very reason to splash black.

Why play bUrg instead of just plain BUG? Simple - Lightning Bolt.




I've played A LOT with both Nic Fit and RUG and it's more or less impossible for RUG to win unless they draw perfect or the Nic Fit player is bad (something that usually seems to be the case). bUrg has a way better matchup thanks to Fire Covenant. Pre-board the mu is hard but afterwards it's more of less impossible to loose, unless you make horrible play mistakes. Suddenly their bombs can be unarmoured. Sure, I've lost games when I've drawn dead and didn't manage to flip Delver for like five turns, etc but that's rather unlikely..

Haven't played bUrg that much BUT it feels way better then RUG over all. Sure, it's harder to navigate but with the right decisions you've (at least) the possibility to beat any deck, even the hard matchups for RUG.

[Sasan]

Ressources

Here are some articles about the bUrg if you need other perspectives on the archetype.


Carsten Kotter: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26762_The-Triumvirate.html

Glenn Jones: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/27339-GRUB-A-Dub-Dub-Stifle-You-Bub.html

Florian Koch: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/burg-delver/

Max Schultze: http://blog.magiccardmarket.eu/legacy-of-a-burg/

Carsten Linden (in German): http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6499

Jonathan Alexander Kurz (cirticizing bUrg): http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/delver-of-secrets-in-legacy-part-2-burg-bug/

[Lemnear]

Thread hijacking? For what?

[Sasan]

Thread hijacking? For what?

What do you mean? I stated clearly why we need a better primer and have named obvious reasons. It was not my intention to offend the starter of the other thread, but come on, we need a good effort on a primer and not just a list.

[sherko7]

I've been playtesting the deck for quite a while on Cockatrice, and it seems like it has quite an issue against DnT, Maverick and other Stoneblade decks especially pre-board. A resolved Batterskull is more often than not GG. P. Fires also proves to be quite an issue. But other than those scenarios, the deck feels pretty solid. It has good game against most of the decks in the field, especially post-board. Merfolks can sometimes give the deck quite a beating if your Fire Covenant comes in a bit late, Goblins too!

Unfortunately, the deck almost auto-loses to RiP... But whatever, at least we have main deck answers to it. :laugh:

[Sasan]

I've been playtesting the deck for quite a while on Cockatrice, and it seems like it has quite an issue against DnT, Maverick and other Stoneblade decks especially pre-board. A resolved Batterskull is more often than not GG. P. Fires also proves to be quite an issue. But other than those scenarios, the deck feels pretty solid. It has good game against most of the decks in the field, especially post-board. Merfolks can sometimes give the deck quite a beating if your Fire Covenant comes in a bit late, Goblins too!

Unfortunately, the deck almost auto-loses to RiP... But whatever, at least we have main deck answers to it. :laugh:

Have you tried my two Goyf version? I did not find DNT to be a hard matchup. With Grudge, Fire Covenant, Loam and Dread of Night from the board, the matchup is clearly winnable.

Esper Blade is a good matchup. Our Spell Snare/Decay/Stifle package combined with Mongoose is always a game winner.

After boarding Maverick is not losable, please try my boarding advice and see how it goes.

The Punishing Fire weakness is compensated with the inclusion of the second Goyf. Now half of our creatures are Pfire proof. Jund is a good matchup.

You can PM me, if you need some basic playing advice as I think that with some play style improvents you will see that the mentioned matchups are good ones.

Side Note: RUG Delver has the same problems versus RIP. yet it continues to be the most successful deck. We have Decay and 3 Spell Snares, so we lose far less times versus RIP than RUG Delver.

[Lennard]

After boarding Maverick is not losable, please try my boarding advice and see how it goes.


As a bUrg and Maverick Player and after hundreds of games on both sides I disagree fiercely!

Away from that, n1 primer!

[Sasan]

As a bUrg and Maverick Player and after hundreds of games on both sides I disagree fiercely!

Away from that, n1 primer!


Thanks :)

Ok it was a bit exaggerated but let me make clear that the maverick matchup is not bad. That is perhaps due to the fact that I know many many Maverick players that cannot play the deck. Against a skilled Maverick pilot it should be an interesting match, around 50-50. But bUrg has clearly a better matchup versus Maverick than RUG Delver.

BTW, I asked the mods if we can have this thread in the established section.

[sherko7]

Have you tried my two Goyf version? I did not find DNT to be a hard matchup. With Grudge, Fire Covenant, Loam and Dread of Night from the board, the matchup is clearly winnable.

Esper Blade is a good matchup. Our Spell Snare/Decay/Stifle package combined with Mongoose is always a game winner.

After boarding Maverick is not losable, please try my boarding advice and see how it goes.

The Punishing Fire weakness is compensated with the inclusion of the second Goyf. Now half of our creatures are Pfire proof. Jund is a good matchup.

You can PM me, if you need some basic playing advice as I think that with some play style improvents you will see that the mentioned matchups are good ones.

Side Note: RUG Delver has the same problems versus RIP. yet it continues to be the most successful deck. We have Decay and 3 Spell Snares, so we lose far less times versus RIP than RUG Delver.

Esperblade is a lot easier than Deathblade. There's just too much bombs that need answers against Deathblade.

I have not tried the 2 Goyf list, as I am planning to build it on paper (just need the Trops, Seas and Stifles now) but I am still contemplating on cashing in on Goyfs. I'm using 1 Clique as my 12th creature at the moment.

Also, what do you think of playing Golgari Charm as a one-off in the SB instead of Dread of Night? Golgari Charm seems a bit more flexible and kills nothing from our side other than unflipped Delvers and tamed Geese.

Do PM me for some basic playing advice. :laugh:

[Sasan]

Esperblade is a lot easier than Deathblade. There's just too much bombs that need answers against Deathblade.

I have not tried the 2 Goyf list, as I am planning to build it on paper (just need the Trops, Seas and Stifles now) but I am still contemplating on cashing in on Goyfs. I'm using 1 Clique as my 12th creature at the moment.

Also, what do you think of playing Golgari Charm as a one-off in the SB instead of Dread of Night? Golgari Charm seems a bit more flexible and kills nothing from our side other than unflipped Delvers and tamed Geese.

Do PM me for some basic playing advice. :laugh:

Golgari Charm is a card that can be interesting if Theros with its enchantments has real good ones. Fire Covenant is strictly better for mass removal, the regenerate and enchantment part is not needed for now. Dread of Night is also better versus DNT than Golgari Charm as Dread is a permanent and therefore has a staying effect.

[DreAmiN]

Why do you even side in Fire Covenant against Storm ?

And no, RUG Delver isn't the most sucessful at the moment, it's BUG and that's why decks like Painter, which destroy BUG are performing well atm.

Imho (without testing) you should have the same issues against UW Miracles than RUG.

[Sasan]

Why do you even side in Fire Covenant against Storm ?

And no, RUG Delver isn't the most sucessful at the moment, it's BUG and that's why decks like Painter, which destroy BUG are performing well atm.

Imho (without testing) you should have the same issues against UW Miracles than RUG.

Sometimes we can eliminate his goblin tokens if he goes for the empty the warrens path. Three Mana are no problem with Shaman if you are on the play. There are times where the opponent can only cast 10-12 Tokens so I happily pay 12 Life and win the game.

You are wrong concerning UW Miracles my friend: Decay crushes Counterbalance. We alsso have 3 Spell Snares Main Deck. I see no reason that we lose to UW Miracles.

I think the RUG Delver players and TC Decks would insist on your statement that RUG is not the most scucessful deck - according to the numbers RUG certainly has always been and will perhaps always be a good choice for a open meta with nearly even matchups. bUrg is Canadian on acid, so yeah I really love the deck :).

[sherko7]

Golgari Charm is a card that can be interesting if Theros with its enchantments has real good ones. Fire Covenant is strictly better for mass removal, the regenerate and enchantment part is not needed for now. Dread of Night is also better versus DNT than Golgari Charm as Dread is a permanent and therefore has a staying effect.

I agree that Dread of Night is (obviously) better versus DNT and Maverick, but Golgari Charm is definitely more flexible. And in a deck that already has Fire Covenant, I'm thinking Golgari Charm should fit the board better. :laugh:

[Sasan]

I can see where you are coming from. It is the old flexible card versus more post-board-impact card debate. If I would run dedicated DNT/Maverick hate, then Dread of Night would be the right call. We have already a flexible main deck and sideboard. I believe Golgari Charm is not worth cutting Compost. He does not fit in the only two flex slots of the whole deck. But again, your rationate seems not bad ;-)

[wcm8]

Your sideboarding is screwed up, e.g. leaving in Abrupt Decays and siding out creatures against some of the combo matchups. Fix this at some point. Otherwise, great primer.

[Sasan]

Your sideboarding is screwed up, e.g. leaving in Abrupt Decays and siding out creatures against some of the combo matchups. Fix this at some point. Otherwise, great primer.

Thanks :-)


Concerning the boarding versus combo:

That is due to the fact that more and more combo decks play defense grids or xantid swarms.
Therefore Decay is occasionally needed. But if you do not expect that kind of hate, you can board decays out and leave some creatures in. You must read the opponent. The sideboard guide should also be comprehensive for the starter so that I did not write much about grids and xantid.

I have no problem going down to 9 creatures versus combo.

[wcm8]

Also, I have to disagree with the inclusion of Taiga after having tested it for a while. I feel like this is really better as the 3rd Tropical Island. You *always* want a Blue source in order to fuel your disruption and cantrips, and Tropical happens to be the one that can cast all of your creatures. Daze is enough to enable efficient Brainstorms, and I think the Taiga often ends up being more of a hinderance than a help. Alternatively, you can just run the 8th fetch, but I do think you want at least 7 Duals.

[Sasan]

Also, I have to disagree with the inclusion of Taiga after having tested it for a while. I feel like this is really better as the 3rd Tropical Island. You *always* want a Blue source in order to fuel your disruption and cantrips, and Tropical happens to be the one that can cast all of your creatures. Daze is enough to enable efficient Brainstorms, and I think the Taiga often ends up being more of a hinderance than a help. Alternatively, you can just run the 8th fetch, but I do think you want at least 7 Duals.

We have tested and played the deck thousands of thousands of
times and there is no way a third
tropical is good. Taiga is superior. We need the ability to operate with two lands. If we rely on casting all of our spells with three lands, then our deck becomes a slow, always screwed, not flexible tempo deck. Taiga is a must.But I understand your opinion and the discussion is welcomed.

[TheKingslayer]

Why would you board out Daze against the mirror/RUG matchups? I feel it is invaluable in holding lands away from wastelands until you need them.

Also, I stand by the belief that 8 Fetchlands is the best number of fetches, and that one volcanic should be removed to fit in a Badlands.

[Sasan]

RUG Delver players know their deck and play around Daze. The cards we bring in have a much higher power level than Daze. We take the control role and prepare for the longer game. Daze becomes less effective then. Against the mirror Daze is far less effective as they have Shaman to pay the daze cost. Loam helps versus Wasteland/Stifle and makes up for the loss of mana protection from Daze.

The fetchlands count is correct. The mana base I presented you is rock solid. We do not need more black sources. We want to operate with two lands. Sorry that I repeat myself but I want to make the message clear ;-).

[Pdingo]

Thanks for the New Primer! but the Deck should now finally come in the etablished Decks treath!:)

[Quasim0ff]

You cut forces before dazes. Always.

[Sasan]

You cut forces before dazes. Always.

if you are on the play, then you are right ;-) But versus Canadian I board out the playset forces so that I need to go to the dazes and cut them. The match plays good with the boarding. Believe me.

[HammafistRoob]

Sweet primer, I can agree with all your assessments. Well almost all... it seems to me the matchups versus AggroLoam and especially LEDDredge seem quite bad. Other than that nice work.

[Sasan]

yeah we are now in the established decks' area :-P

@HammafistRoob: You are right. These matchups are
around 45 to 55 for them. But bUrg has a better matchup versus them than any other tempo deck. I played versus both of these decks recently in tournaments and did not lose. Compost helps a lot versus Dredge as you have virtually 5 pieces of hate versus them (Compost, Shaman, Nihil Spellbomb). Fire Covenant is nuts versus Aggro Loam.

[Pdingo]

Finally nice work Sasan!

Now the should come to the DtB Treaths:P

Maybe we see now more bUrg list's in the Top8 in the USA.

[sherko7]

The Badlands over Taiga argument sounds pretty reasonable. I've encountered that situation a few times (Just U. Sea and Taiga both untapped, end of turn I activate DRS to shoot 2.), and I understand that does get us in quite a vulnerable spot.

[Sasan]

bUrg consists of two main colors: blue and green. Red and black are not so dominant. With that in mind there is no reason to play a dual land - Badlands - that only supports our side colors. You must consider that there are many matchups where you cannot play so much lands and I also gave the advice to play tight with only two lands in play. This whole play style and strategy cannot be reached with Badlands. The deck can afford to be cut from black a few turns - then it will become more or less Canadian Thresh for these turns. But being cut off black and red is a game breaker.

[Pdingo]

Sometimes we can Play with 3 lands in Play 1 volcanic 1 Tropical 1 usea because it's a Little bit more controll.

[TheKingslayer]

bUrg consists of two main colors: blue and green. Red and black are not so dominant. With that in mind there is no reason to play a dual land - Badlands - that only supports our side colors. You must consider that there are many matchups where you cannot play so much lands and I also gave the advice to play tight with only two lands in play. This whole play style and strategy cannot be reached with Badlands. The deck can afford to be cut from black a few turns - then it will become more or less Canadian Thresh for these turns. But being cut off black and red is a game breaker.

The reasons are as I've stated before. I feel like I've aptly described scenarios of very tight play where Badlands+Trop would be more choice than Taiga + U Sea. Simply saying 'it is not correct' does not articulate the logical decisions behind the choice of Taiga over Badlands. I feel like the fact that Taiga simply casts more spells (only four more truly, since you can cast Abrupt Decay with the configuration of Badlands+Trop or Taiga+U Sea) than badlands Perhaps it is the differences in our build. I run 4 deathrites and 0 goyfs MB, therefore Deathrite must utilized as a threat whenever possible. I run two Spell Pierce, where you run two Goyfs, because my Meta is saturated with a great deal of combo. As well, I like running more disruption anyway. However, the point I'm trying to make is that I do not understand the defenses in your argument for Taiga, so I would simply like to hear of some likely scenarios where your ideal two land configuration is much more desirable than Badlands. As well, if you're worried about getting cut off of removal by being cut off of black and red, having only a Usea in play won't cast abrupt decay or lightning bolt either. I'm going to repost my beliefs from the old thread, so newcomers may read. However, I really would like to hear a well written and articulate response explaining the decisions for Taiga over Badlands. I don't feel that you are aptly describing particular situations in depth, so I am having trouble understanding your perspective on the decision.

Here is my previous posts from the other thread so newcomers may read:

"Consider this scenario I've been faced with a couple of times-

I have U Sea, Taiga, and Deathrite Shaman in play and spell snare in hand. I pass the turn to my opponent- all of my permanents are untapped. My opponent plays Stoneforge mystic- knowing that Batterskull simply spells certain doom for us, I am forced (no pun intended) to spell snare the Stoneforge mystic using my one blue land ( and only black land.) In the aftermath, I'm left with a near useless Deathrite activation at the end of my opponents turn. I essentially 'skipped an attack step with Deathrite.' Which, in both cases, cost me the game while my opponent ends the game resting at one life.

I've had similar scenarios where I am awkwardly funneled into choosing between activating Deathrite for a relevant two damage, or, knowing my opponent will crack their fetchland when I tap out all blue sources, leaving mana up to stifle a precious fetchland. Tapping out for also allows for a rather opportune moment to kill my delvers/ deathrite itself.

I also think that if people become attuned to the deck's presence, they might start targeting the only two black lands with their wastelands in order to nearly invalidate one of our creatures."

"I think you can say that any color is just the splash, really. The most important color is obviously blue. As far as land configuration, I think that volcanic island is the least valuable land out of the blue sources (of course the non blue dual is the worst land overall.) For this reason, I think that having 8 total fetches is best for having a higher probability of being able to choose whatever land you need in tight situations. I also tested the deck with 19 lands for quite some time, but felt that it was somewhat excessive with Deathrite, and I missed the extra counterspell I used to run in RUG. So, I feel that we are forced to sacrifice a dual land slot to patch up tight mana play with a non blue dual.

I feel that Volcanic is the land with the least value to it, because of it's casting parameters of only allowing one to cast one of the twelve threats in the deck. Whereas tropical island will cast all 12, and Underground sea will cast eight. Being a tempo deck, I feel it is most important to drop a turn one threat. So, I'm assuming that I will rarely ever try to start the game with Volcanic island, and leave it to be used at opportune moments to cast lightning bolts (the only maindecked red spell in the entire maindeck.) So, red is used as mostly a one shot color in order to clear blockers, annoying creatures and steal the final points of damage in the game. I also believe it is the least necessary of all of the colors to have 3 lands devoted to its color of mana. It has very little long term value, whereas green allows you to drop late game Mongeese and late game Deathrites. So, with these parameters, I chose to drop one volcanic island from the list and I originally replaced it with a Taiga. However, I'm beginning to believe Badlands is the better dual. As I said before, I know that Taiga can ultimately cast more spells than badlands, but I feel that Badlands can allow for much tighter play form the scenarios listed above. Taiga possess very little longterm value over badlands other than allowing one to cast top decked Mongeese, while badlands is a very important resource for closing games with Deathrite. I don't believe that the -2 shaman activation is 'cool,' but rather I believe that it is entirely necessary and very important to use at every opportunity given, since we are a tempo deck that is required to close the game out before it falls out of our favor. Mongoose is horrible in the early game, fantastic in the early-midgame, and then loses value once the opponent begins landing goyfs, linger souls tokens, and other blockers. This is where deathrite activations are most important, as they circumvent blocking forces when mongoose loses its value. Black mana turns Deathrite into a threat, and I feel that it is important to have 12 threats and not 8 in the deck.

In terms of playing very tightly and on only two lands, I strongly feel that opening with a tropical and dropping a badlands second turn can more often be the most efficient play. It grants you the possibility of dropping any of your 12 threats turn one as it allows for activating Deathrite (or bolting creatures during an opponents attack step) while simultaneously holding blue mana up for stifle, brainstorm, and other counterspells. Ending an opponents turn, tapping usea and Deathrite to shave two life from their total, then having them swords to plowshares the Deathrite or your flipped Delver in response hurts a great deal, especially when you're left staring at an untapped taiga in play with a spell pierce in hand. Taiga does not have as much long term value as badlands. Once a mongoose is loose, it requires no mana intensive upkeep. Deathrite does require intensive mana upkeep, in order to remain an important threat. And spell snaring a tarmogoyf or stoneforge mystic with your U sea and ending the turn tapping your taiga for a 2 life gain from Deathrite just does not interact synergistically with BURG's game plan. The two life you could have taken from your opponent that turn is way too valuable. And so is the ability of taking two life every turn while maintaining the ability to counter important threats.

To me, I feel that black is more integral to closing games, and the configuration of playing efficiently with only two lands in play would best be complimented with Badlands over Taiga, which I hope I conveyed thoroughly through the scenarios described in my previous post."

And for contextual understanding, here is my current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells 30

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt decay

Lands 18
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

SB

2 Fire Covenant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Dures
2 Tarmogoyf

[Qweerios]

I was about to write a long thread about how Volcanic is the worst dual, Taiga could cast more spells than Badlands, Badlands was more versatile overall, and how you should play all 8 fetches but I think TheKingslayer beat me to it. I agree with everything mentioned above and I have had those scenarios occur more than once in my experience with burg. My mainboard is the same as him except that I play a 4th Daze over the 3rd Pierce.

With that said, I have a very different take on how to maximize this deck's sideboard. I think the recently printed Charms have a lot to offer to our sideboard. They are all instant speed, have a low mana cost, and have at least 2 relevant abilities. For starters, I chose to use 2 Rakdos Charms instead of 1 Cage/Spellbomb and 1 Ancient Grudge. This way, I am doubling up on SB GY hate, artifact hate, and I have more relevant abilities against Vial decks. Charm can blow up an early Vial or be used as extra reach on a clogged board or in a losing position. Dimir Charm is another card to consider as it combines Envelop and Disfigure to give you a card that is relevant against tribal, aggro, combo, and especially relevant against decks like Shardless BUG and Elves. It's 3rd ability is also very useful as it enables Threshold, sets up a Delver flip, gives Deathrite some food, or simply keeps your opponent off lands when you have successfully Stifled and Wasted him.

Here's my bUrg sideboard open to criticism:


2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Dimir Charm
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Fire Covenant
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

[HammafistRoob]

How about playing a Bayou over the Taiga?

[Sasan]

Concerning the Taiga vs Badlands vs Bayou debate, let us do the maths.

We assume that we want to be able cast all spells with just two lands. That is an assumption that I consider as a proven and needed fact.

Then we have three options:

1. Taiga and Underground Sea,
2. Badlands and Tropical Island,
3. Bayou and Volcanic Island. Note: You can only cast decay with a third land.

With Taiga you can cast all 15 non-blue spells of my list. With Badlands only 9. With Bayou 11. All three duals are bad, as they do not produce blue mana but Taiga is the least bad choice.

Another well known bUrg player - Florian Koch - writes on Channelfireball concerning his bUrg list the following:

"The mana base is probably just what you would expect from this deck. Some people have inquired about Taiga, as that one is so bad in RUG Delver. The Taiga can still be annoying, but it is necessary as it’s often critical to have all colors available with just two lands. If you take into account that you want to be able to cast Abrupt Decay with these two lands, then there are just two options. Either you have Taiga in your deck and go for Taiga plus Underground Sea, or you add Badlands and go for Badlands plus Tropical Island. However, the Taiga variant is much more desirable than Badlands as you can cast all 14 non-blue spells with Taiga instead of just 9 with Badlands. Ergo Taiga is a bad land, but Badlands is worse."

I updated the primer with this debate.

@TheKingSlayer:

Now with your list it becomes clear where you are coming from. With 4 Shamans and no Goyfs and more reactive Spells your list urgently needs Shaman as a clock and always blue mana open. I understand your choice of badlands. Badlands can cast more of the non blue Spells in your list than on mine. But respect that with my list Badlands is a bad land :-P ( I love that pun ;-))


@Qweerios:

A nice sideboard. As you have covered all my fix slots
in the SB, just with other cards that do
the same, it is a viable way to go.

I have some concerns regarding Dimir
Charm. The card is too slow as an envelop substitute. Therefore you make the combo matchup weaker. Just play perhaps the flexible Spell Pierce in the slot. The Sylvan Library is sweet and I can see myself perhaps playing it sometimes in the future. But try Compost. In the current meta, it is a Library on crack versus most of
the decks to beat. Rakdos Charm is sweet, but perhaps a little slow versus gravebased combo decks. Engineered Plague is nice if you have much tribal running around. I like the power level of Submerge so that I think 3 are a must in the meta.

[David Kaplan]

I have been running the same list Kingslayer (4th daze > 3rd snare.) I currently do not have access to Deltas, only Mistys and Tarns. Should I go with Badlands even though only half of my fetches can get it, or stick with Taiga until I get the Deltas?

For the sideboard, are you able to reliably get RR for Vortex? Ever consider Divert > Duress? Sulfur Elemental/Dread of Night against DnT and Maverick? Ever want Clique?

Thanks

[Qweerios]

What is the first land you want to play? I always open or try to open the game with a Tropical Island because it can cast every threat, cantrip, and counterspell in the deck. Tropical is your go-to land on turn 1.

How do you best complement a Tropical Island if you only have access to 2 lands? Badlands enables all 4 colors with a Tropical Island.

What is your most mana intensive color after blue? Black is a source of mana that you want to have open at the end of each turn, sometimes even in multiples (AKA: 2 Deathrites).

@Sasan
TheKingslayer put forth some very convincing arguments as to why even though Taiga enables the most spells, Badlands is the most needed complementary dual. Instead of restating what we already know and quoting opinions from other bUrg players, I would like to hear arguments from your side as to why we should adopt 2 Volcanics and a Taiga or why we shouldn't play the 8 available fetches.

[Sasan]

I have been running the same list Kingslayer (4th daze > 3rd snare.) I currently do not have access to Deltas, only Mistys and Tarns. Should I go with Badlands even though only half of my fetches can get it, or stick with Taiga until I get the Deltas?

For the sideboard, are you able to reliably get RR for Vortex? Ever consider Divert > Duress? Sulfur Elemental/Dread of Night against DnT and Maverick? Ever want Clique?

Thanks

Sorry man you clearly need the Deltas of you want to go the badland route. You want the maximum amount of flexibility. You will even lose some games with your current fetch configuration. Until you get your deltas, please run Taiga.

RR for Vortex is not a problem as you board it in versus control decks that do not run much Wastelands. Another application is versus Jund. They have Wastelands but need them often for casting their spells. Plus you board in Loam there. This card can get your red sources back.

Discard Spells are a matter of their own, I will make some points about them in the updated primer soon.

Divert is not that powerful. Many RUG Delver players tested the card as an out to Decay and were not satisfied. Divert is never there when you need it.

Sulfur Elemental is inferior to Dread of Night. It is more mana intense and heavily better removable compared to an enchantment.

Clique is great. It can be boarded versus all control, combo and Pinishing Fire decks.

[Sasan]

What is the first land you want to play? I always open or try to open the game with a Tropical Island because it can cast every threat, cantrip, and counterspell in the deck. Tropical is your go-to land on turn 1.

How do you best complement a Tropical Island if you only have access to 2 lands? Badlands enables all 4 colors with a Tropical Island.

What is your most mana intensive color after blue? Black is a source of mana that you want to have open at the end of each turn, sometimes even in multiples (AKA: 2 Deathrites).

@Sasan
TheKingslayer put forth some very convincing arguments as to why even though Taiga enables the most spells, Badlands is the most needed complementary dual. Instead of restating what we already know and quoting opinions from other bUrg players, I would like to hear arguments from your side as to why we should adopt 2 Volcanics and a Taiga or why we shouldn't play the 8 available fetches.

I try to play an Usea first if I want to open with Shaman or Delver. I never play Mongoose on the first turn. Then I fetch a Taiga and can cast every spell.

If you go to the Badlands route like Kingslayer your first land has to be Tropical as you need a blue source as soon as possible for your reactive spells and cantrips. The second land should be a Badland.

Multiple black sources are not that important with 3 Shamans in your deck. But if you play 4, then the deck gets black hungry.

Another note to the endless mana base discussion ;-):

I wanted to underline my arguments by doing the maths. But as you can see I clearly said that the Badland approach of TheKingSlayer is good in his specific list for the reasons he mentioned. I advise another list and do not want to go to details now why I think my fixed main deck is the starting point for the archetype, I just refer to the primer.

We should always be aware that all non blue duals are really bad. A starting hand with them can make a otherwise fantastic hand to a mulligan hand. But if you opt to go the way of operating with two lands, you must make that compromise. I even admit that Badlands vs Taiga is a tough question whereas Bayou is out of question for me as you cannot cast decay AND all other spells with the two lands Bayou and Tropical.

You are right that 8 fetchlands would be sweet but I want at least two of the main duals. With Taiga/Badland it makes 7 duals and 7 fetches. Cutting the number of one main dual is not a clever move as I want to have a backup in case I need that dual and it gets wasted.

To end the discussiom for now, I can only say that I have done thousands of testings with the deck and have had more losses with Badlands than with Taiga. I know that is not an understandable argument but with such a tough choice between these two duals you need playtesting to answer that question. It goes down to the point whether you can better use the Shaman ping feature (Badlands) or can cast all relevant spells in all situations (Taiga). It is also list and playstyle depending. I do not ping so often with Shaman in the early game. The reason: An untapped Shaman is crucial versus many decks to beat, as I need Shaman to let the opponent fizzle (Snappy, Punishing Fire, Opposing Shamans etc). Pinging is good versus stalled board states and during the end game. But again, as I play Goyfs I do not need Shaman to be an aggressive threat. 4 Shaman activations for pinging are two Goyf attacks.

[TheKingslayer]

I try to play an Usea first if I want to open with Shaman or Delver. I never play Mongoose on the first turn. Then I fetch a Taiga and can cast every spell.

If you go to the Badlands route like Kingslayer your first land has to be Tropical as you need a blue source as soon as possible for your reactive spells and cantrips. The second land should be a Badland.

Multiple black sources are not that important with 3 Shamans in your deck. But if you play 4, then the deck gets black hungry.

Another note to the endless mana base discussion ;-):

I wanted to underline my arguments by doing the maths. But as you can see I clearly said that the Badland approach of TheKingSlayer is good in his specific list for the reasons he mentioned. I advise another list and do not want to go to details now why I think my fixed main deck is the starting point for the archetype, I just refer to the primer.

We should always be aware that all non blue duals are really bad. A starting hand with them can make a otherwise fantastic hand to a mulligan hand. But if you opt to go the way of operating with two lands, you must make that compromise. I even admit that Badlands vs Taiga is a tough question whereas Bayou is out of question for me as you cannot cast decay AND all other spells with the two lands Bayou and Tropical.

You are right that 8 fetchlands would be sweet but I want at least two of the main duals. With Taiga/Badland it makes 7 duals and 7 fetches. Cutting the number of one main dual is not a clever move as I want to have a backup in case I need that dual and it gets wasted.

To end the discussiom for now, I can only say that I have done thousands of testings with the deck and have had more losses with Badlands than with Taiga. I know that is not an understandable argument but with such a tough choice between these two duals you need playtesting to answer that question. It goes down to the point whether you can better use the Shaman ping feature (Badlands) or can cast all relevant spells in all situations (Taiga). It is also list and playstyle depending. I do not ping so often with Shaman in the early game. The reason: An untapped Shaman is crucial versus many decks to beat, as I need Shaman to let the opponent fizzle (Snappy, Punishing Fire, Opposing Shamans etc). Pinging is good versus stalled board states and during the end game. But again, as I play Goyfs I do not need Shaman to be an aggressive threat. 4 Shaman activations for pinging are two Goyf attacks.

Thank you :) I do understand that Goose is a horrible turn one play, but sometimes it is the only threat available. I look forward to reporting back with results and revelations on engineering the evolution of this super-awesome archetype.

[Sasan]

Although I wanted to end the mana base discussion I have a small addition to the debate:

With Taiga and Underground Sea every third land can cast our crucial sideboard spell Fire Covenant. Badlands/Tropical has not this ability. Playing badlands makes you dependent on Tropical Island and therefore you always have to choose whether to cast a threat with Tropical Island or hold up blue mana for Stifle/Counterspells/Cantrips. With Taiga in play you can cast your threats with the non-blue source and have a blue one open for your instants/sorceries. Although Lightning Bolt is the exception from that rule, the choice between casting a threat or bolting is not as hard as the choice of threat casting versus holding open blue mana.

@TheKingSlayer: I am looking forward to read some sweet tournament reports here in this thread :) that is lacking ;)

[sherko7]

Although I wanted to end the mana base discussion I have a small addition to the debate:

With Taiga and Underground Sea every third land can cast our crucial sideboard spell Fire Covenant. Badlands/Tropical has not this ability. Playing badlands makes you dependent on Tropical Island and therefore you always have to choose whether to cast a threat with Tropical Island or hold up blue mana for Stifle/Counterspells/Cantrips. With Taiga in play you can cast your threats with the non-blue source and have a blue one open for your instants/sorceries. Although Lightning Bolt is the exception from that rule, the choice between casting a threat or bolting is not as hard as the choice of threat casting versus holding open blue mana.

@TheKingSlayer: I am looking forward to read some sweet tournament reports here in this thread :) that is lacking ;)

+1 to this. I recently just realized how much I wanted to just have U. Sea and Taiga in play while waiting for that perfect moment to cast Fire Covenant. :laugh:

Do you side Fire Covenant in against DeathBlade or do you prefer Submerge? I like siding out FoW and sometimes even Daze against them. So I can/might fit some Fire Covenants/Submerges in against them G2/G3. I keep Daze on the play against them because its as good as removal against DRS.

[Sasan]

Do not get me wrong but I ask myself why I write down a sideboard guide in hours and weeks (the matchups have be played to know how to board) if such questions are asked ;-)

In the primer there is the following SB plan concerning Esper Blade and Death Blade:


//Blade:
//-3 Daze-1 Force+2 ReB+ 1 Ancient Grudge +1 Fire Covenant

//Death Blade:
-4 Daze -2 Force + 2 ReB + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Compost+ 1 Loam + 1 Fire Covenant

[dunk]

I still think it's bad to run only 3 Deathrithes. That card is the whole point to actually go for the deck and it's so super awesome in nearly every situation. While I also like Goose a lot it has more build in variance. While I would love to run 4 copies of each the deck is already heavy on creatures.

Concerning the Taiga, I think I have to agree with it for now. It's just needed in a couple of situations, mostly to not lose tempo. A 4th deathrite is of course a boon for the mana as well.

Regarding sb plans:
Boarding out Daze vs Shardless Bug seems weird. I can see it on the draw, but on the play it's questionable. Shardless is already slow and coupled with the land disruption Daze often is better than any other counterspell in the game if you are ahead, which you should be. You cut yourself off answers to Liliana and random strong cascades while not allowing yourself to tap out for threats early in the game.

[Sasan]

hey awesome to see more German faces in the thread.

I can answer all of your questions and concerns:

Playing 4 Shaman would be powerful but we would have to play with three black sources and therefore weaken our mana base. That is due to the fact that we want to support multiple Shamans in play with a playset. As the full set of Delvers and Mongoose is out of question, you have to evaluate Goyf. We played with 0 Goyfs in the past, you should know that. But the deck was too focused on the early game success and lost rapidly its value after that. With my innovation of 2 Goyfs the creature base is balanced as hell and has the beatstick it always asked for. The tempo mirror is now winnable with two Goyfs, before that we had to struggle versus even newbie Canadian Thresh players.
So to sum it up: We do not have the deck space nor the mana base for 4 Shamans. We must live with it that bUrg is the best of the worlds of Canadian and Team America. There need compromises to be made to achieve that.

Glad you are now on the Taiga train.

The boarding versus Shardless was a matter of long brainstorming between Carsten Linden, Florian Koch and me. We felt that the boarded in cards have such a great power level that it compensates and exceeds the fact we board out our tempo counters. With so much removal and less counters we become the "midrange" deck in the matchup - a matchup that Shardless BUG hates. We have many good Shardless players here who can play around Daze. If you feel that your opponent is not so strong, you can board in one Submerge and REB less on the play plus board one Bolt out and let three Dazes in.

I hope I could help you a little with your questions.

[sherko7]

Do not get me wrong but I ask myself why I write down a sideboard guide in hours and weeks (the matchups have be played to know how to board) if such questions are asked ;-)

In the primer there is the following SB plan concerning Esper Blade and Death Blade:


//Blade:
//-3 Daze-1 Force+2 ReB+ 1 Ancient Grudge +1 Fire Covenant

//Death Blade:
-4 Daze -2 Force + 2 ReB + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Compost+ 1 Loam + 1 Fire Covenant

Haha! Sorry I missed that XD

I should probably print the guide out the first tourney I play this deck. I'm still short on 2 U. Seas and 1 Goyf plus some of the SB cards but I'm pretty much good to go by the end of the month. :laugh:

[Qweerios]

I understand Taiga > Badlands better now. I was probably playing the deck wrong rushing my Mongeese into play when I should have been Pondering or bluffing Stifles instead. I was having a lot of trouble casting Rakdos Charm and Fire Covenant out of the board when I opened with a Tropical Island. You really don't need green until later (2nd or 3rd land).

An interesting thing about tempo decks with DRS that has been occurring a lot lately is that I often try to make my first 4 land drops when I am not holding a Brainstorm and I have a DRS in play. This allows me to hardcast FoW. Is it a bad decision? Should I always be holding back my lands in case I draw a Brainstorm?

On a different note, I have been having a lot of trouble against other tempo decks like Team America and RUG. They play more Goyfs and that's basically what the game boils down to: Goyf wars. DnT has also been giving me trouble. I don't want to start playing more Decays because the card is hard enough to cast as it is, however, I was thinking that maybe Ghastly Demise or Dismember could be a solution. I am seriously considering Dread of Night for all Mom/Thalia/Souls decks. Surgical Extraction is also another very potent card against RUG but I have trouble getting behind the concept of of such a card for such a matchup in practice.

[Pdingo]

4 shaman are to much becaue you only want 1and not more on the field..
You need a real clock like goyf;)

[TheKingslayer]

I understand Taiga > Badlands better now. I was probably playing the deck wrong rushing my Mongeese into play when I should have been Pondering or bluffing Stifles instead. I was having a lot of trouble casting Rakdos Charm and Fire Covenant out of the board when I opened with a Tropical Island. You really don't need green until later (2nd or 3rd land).

An interesting thing about tempo decks with DRS that has been occurring a lot lately is that I often try to make my first 4 land drops when I am not holding a Brainstorm and I have a DRS in play. This allows me to hardcast FoW. Is it a bad decision? Should I always be holding back my lands in case I draw a Brainstorm?

On a different note, I have been having a lot of trouble against other tempo decks like Team America and RUG. They play more Goyfs and that's basically what the game boils down to: Goyf wars. DnT has also been giving me trouble. I don't want to start playing more Decays because the card is hard enough to cast as it is, however, I was thinking that maybe Ghastly Demise or Dismember could be a solution. I am seriously considering Dread of Night for all Mom/Thalia/Souls decks. Surgical Extraction is also another very potent card against RUG but I have trouble getting behind the concept of of such a card for such a matchup in practice.

You won't ever really want 4 lands in play, for the most part. View each land in your hand as virtual card advantage and a resource. Hold onto them to bluff counters and replace with brainstorm/shuffles.

[dunk]

4 shaman are to much becaue you only want 1and not more on the field..
You need a real clock like goyf;)

I had several situations where I was happy to have more than one on the field and it's not like the Shaman has a long life anyway, having a second one to recharge is so important so often. Nothing feels more powerful than to get a Shaman forced in the tempo mirror just to slam a second copy. In general I like to have better chances to draw the card as it's never dead and very imporant in some matchups.
I guess I will just stick to my version for now. If the meta changes or I start to dislike it... I can just swap cards ;)

@Sasan: Thanks for the insight. Think I will just proceed to board as I do against Shardless, I feel very confident against that deck anyway, but I will reconsider your plan at least when I'm on the draw.

@opposing Goyfs: I rarely have trouble with them. The deck runs enough answers. I like the matchup against other tempodecks in general, Shaman is just so sweet here. The matchup is more centered about Landdestruction than Goyfs and whoever has acces to more mana wins most of the time.

[Sasan]

TheKingSlayer is absolutely right.

The mentioned matchups, especially the tempo mirrors are only winnable with a ton of experience. The better player wins. That is not a design fault in bUrg, because you can ask a Canadian Thresh player if he likes the mirror and he will reply that playing mirrors gives him headaches.

For all starters who want more information on play style please read thoroughly the primer. I will update it regularly and it will soon become all you need to understand the deck.


But there is also an external article that is the Holy Grail of explanations. It explains how to play RUG Delver. The most part can be referred to bUrg, too. I know bad players that became a lot more successful just after reading the article and here it is:

http://manadeprived.com/canadian-threshold-a-primer/

@dunkle_stille: perhaps you can post your list and your boarding idea versus Shardless. Every discussion is welcome. The fact that the primer states a list as a must with nearly no flex slots is due to the fact to give beginners are starting point to the archetype, a blueprint which is the base for discussions why someone differs from it. That does not mean that other lists are worse. So in short: Just give us the damned list :-P

[TheKingslayer]

+1 to this. I recently just realized how much I wanted to just have U. Sea and Taiga in play while waiting for that perfect moment to cast Fire Covenant. :laugh:

Do you side Fire Covenant in against DeathBlade or do you prefer Submerge? I like siding out FoW and sometimes even Daze against them. So I can/might fit some Fire Covenants/Submerges in against them G2/G3. I keep Daze on the play against them because its as good as removal against DRS.

Something that must be considered in this instance of casting Fire Covenant is that you will need three sources of mana already (whether from Deathrite, or a third land. I suppose it is relevant when considering using wasteland as a potential mana source. But it must also be taken into consideration that Fire Covenant is also a SB card, so the frequency of relevance can fluctuate depending on how many decks you potentially sideboard it in against.

@Sasan - Also, have you considered replacing a 4th Mongoose with a 4th Deathrite, as Deathrite is awesome on turn 1, whereas Mongoose is not- Deathrite dies a lot, whereas Mongoose is very good at surviving?

[Sasan]

Yes, Wasteland often becomes a mana source in terms of Fire Covenant. In the current meta Fire Covenant is boarded in versus nearly all decks to beat and many Tier 1.5 Decks. The card is just awesome now :)

I have indeed played with three Mongoose - whether to play with only 12 creatures or play a fourth Deathrite. It was ok but not great. The starting hands with double Deathrite felt clunky. I hated 4 Shamans as I always wanted to black sources in play. That forced bad plays. but it is a consideration that can be made, but if you cut one mongoose please play one reanimate in the SB as the virtual fourth Mongoose.

[dunk]

@dunkle_stille: perhaps you can post your list and your boarding idea versus Shardless. Every discussion is welcome. The fact that the primer states a list as a must with nearly no flex slots is due to the fact to give beginners are starting point to the archetype, a blueprint which is the base for discussions why someone differs from it. That does not mean that other lists are worse. So in short: Just give us the damned list :-P

Well, my maindeck differs by just 1 card. It's not like the deck has that many options anyway, the 2 Goyf are already the flex slots.
My sb was originally a bit different, but right now I'm trying your version. I used to play 4 Submerge 3 Surgical Extraction, but Submerge has fallen out of favor a bit since drawing too many without any clock is just terrible and sadly people know too well how to play around it. Extraction on the other hand is just a card I like a lot since it has a lot of random value and it helps to combat "random" decks, like Painter, Manaless Dredge, weird Land decks etc while also helping vs Combo and UW ( often it's not the worst to remove a "random" card like a cantrip, you usually mess up some plans and seeing their hand is sweet information ).
In the last days I've met more "real" decks again which made me consider your SB. I like the random Loam a lot, sadly other green decks also use it to combat us.

More sb talk: I start to dislike this decks tools against creatures. Submerge varies in strength mostly depending on the board position and Fire Covenant only wins style awards. Often it's tough to find a good timing to sweep the opponent's board so you are left with an extremely expensive Vendetta ( well, at least it hits black crits ). While it can create massive blowouts the price is extremely high, in all possible directions. The card suffers a similar problem that dismember has: On the one hand you would want to remove creatures, but if your opponent plays creatures he will probably attack your life total anyway, so often you destroy a creature that already dealt x dmg to you and then it deals an additional x dmg. Sacrificing life in a world where everyone can attack your life total directly with Deathrite is not as good as it's used to be. Especially if you are already on a silly low life total and are forced to kill the Shaman your opponent just topdecked.


@Shardless:
This deck can't board into "midrange". Attack their mana and keep them from playing Liliana is probably the best advice I can give. You will need a lot of ressources and them to not hit their few important pieces. Creatures can be dealt with, but Decay is a beast. Daze is strong versus Agent himself. Once they hit 4 and more mana Daze loses value, but you want to get your value out of it before they can get this far anyway. Even later it's still fine as they will try to stabilize and often need to cast more spells in one turn.


random stuff:
Calling hands with 2 Deathrite "clunky" might be true sometimes, but so are the hands with 2 Geese a lot of times. It always depends on the opener, the matchup and how the game evolves. Fancy note: Just play 61 cards and 4 Goose 4 Shaman!

Reanimate in the SB sounds great. In some matchups I'd love to run like 20 creatures and this might be the card I'm looking for.

[Sasan]

Fire Covenant is a sideboard all star, I often had situations that I pushed myself with Fire Covenant to 4 life or less and won. The crucial part is the right time to cast it. It honors good plays and punishs bad decisions. So I must admit that I hate that card sometimes ;). Versus certain decks a rough/tumble would be great, one thing that is a staple in Canadian Sideboards. But we cannot play with that card due
to Shaman. If Grixis or UR Delver become a thing thanks to Young Pyromancer we could also play Echoing Truth instead 1 Submerge or so.

Although I understand your points I think that in this Goyf and Shaman creature meta we need at least 5 SB creature removals.

A note on Shardless: REB and Grudge deals with a good amount of their creatures, too. Daze can be played easy around. As the games go long Daze will lose its value. But as we have discussed, Daze is a smart move versus bad opponents on the play :-)

Playing 61 cards is not an option as we have only 13 blue sources and cannot afford to weaken our mana base.

Reanimate is more flexible than one might think. Ever reanimated an opposing Knight or Griselbrand? Fun stuff.

[dunk]

I don't question Covenant or would cut any "removal" out of the sb - I just want to point out that they are not the perfect Solution like e.g. Flusterstorm is against Combo. I wouldn't cut any of them right now, just to remind everyone that, as cool the card is, it's no I win button with a threat in play.

Shardless: "Deals with a good amount of creatures" aka Strix, which not even all versions play. Agent is hardly relevant by itself. Being able to have some situational out against them is cute, but will rarely be the key to victory. Hitting other artifacts they might bring in is cool though, but I have never even seen someone board Jitte against me.
I will also probably never get why Daze should only be good vs bad players. Because of Deathrite? Decay? Daze might be a bit more situational here than against other decks but often enough they are still forced to play the curve or get screwed by random land destruction. The problem though is that all card you can bring in here have some level of variance. It's hard to tell which of all the options is definitely the worst. Also, smart opponents might realize that you boarded out Dazes at some point... would you board them back in then?

61 cards was a joke :)

[Sasan]

If they realize I boarded out Dazes, I would probably pretend that I board Daze in by letting one Daze fall in front of the opponent while boarding and curse and say it was an accident. And then I would not board them in as now he will play around it ;-)

[Sasan]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58928

bUrg is winning in the States. Great. I will post remarks on the decklist later. It is not the best one but decent.

[David Kaplan]

If they realize I boarded out Dazes, I would probably pretend that I board Daze in by letting one Daze fall in front of the opponent while boarding and curse and say it was an accident. And then I would not board them in as now he will play around it ;-)

Close to the stock list. Cuts 2 goyfs and 3 snares for an ooze, 2 pierce and 2 gitaxian probe.

The SB cuts a spellbomb for a cage, a compost for a vortex and a pierce for a 3rd decay. He did lose 0-2 to Theo Van Dooselaere who T8'd with Manaless Dredge.

Does this deck have any room for a Probe or 2?

[Sasan]

The Sideboard is exactly the one proposed in the primer concerning the 13 fix slots.
Only the inclusion of the third Decay instead of another Pierce is the difference. But that difference comes from the main deck changes:

The lack of Snares, that target Goyfs, Counterbalaances, Stoneforges etc, leads to the fact that you do not have that much "removal spells" main deck. If you take into consideration that the Probes also make it impossible to run more main deck removal spells, you can clearly see that he needed a third Decay in the SB.

Playing with Ooze instead of double Goyfs is a bit lackluster. This is not the current state of the development of the archetype. Only the 13 creature base with Goyfs is flexible enough for many matchups. Without Goyfs you do not have a late game bomb. Ooze is slow and is only a one off.

The interesting question is if the inclusion of Probes makes up for all these disadvantages. Remember that you play with only 58 real cards with two Probes.I can answer that: No. Two Probes make the chance of drawing an extra removal, extra creature, extra land only slightly better (your chances of drawing one is 1/58 with two Probes Nd 1/60 without them). The extra information provided by the Probes is not worth it as a good player can foresee many situations. So Probe is ok but not needed. We have better options. I can think that Jacob Wilson, a RUG Delver player, will disagree here ;-)

[Qweerios]

I think Probe has a lot of value in RUG and bUrg. No matter how good of a player you are, you will never know exactly what your opponent is holding. Having that information lets you know that your opponent needs his fetch for his 3rd colored source or that you have to aggressively dig for a Wasteland because he is holding a Verdict. You get to know what you are playing against during G1 and might make you cast a Ponder for counterspells as opposed to a Delver when you know a turn 2 SnT is coming or that Belcher is about to go off. Also, Mongoose suffers from a severe problem in this deck because he doesn't reach threshold fast enough. Thought Scour seems like a natural inclusion in this deck but it simply becomes too shaky to self-mill in a 4-colored deck with a very low count of key dual lands. This, in turn, makes cutting Stifle in favor of Scour not an option because you need to keep all your duals available and counter as many wastelands as you can. Probe is the second best option to fill your GY faster. It also happens to be a Sorcery spell, which Goyf tends to crave.

As much as I love Spell Snare, it is certainly not as versatile as Spell Pierce. Even if Snare is really good right now, Pierce and Decay are both better at answering what Snare answers with the exception of Baleful Strix. Strix is and will always be an asshole to Delver decks, thats why you have Pyroblast, FoW, and Daze, and...

Darkblast in the SB? I personally use it over the 2nd Fire Covenant. It is extremely good vs. Maverick, DnT, Goblins, Elves, and Strix. You can use it as early as T1 and it fills up my GY for DRS, Goyf, and Mongoose. I can only give you positive feedback about this card, it really deserves a slot in the SB. As much as I love Covenant, I find it difficult to cast when I need it because of its hefty mana cost and, sometimes, difficult additional cost. Darkblast is overall smoother and fits our strategy like a glove:

-Early removal
-Instant speed
-Low cost
-Pumps our threats
-Always available

As far as the evolution of the list, I am using the 2 Decay/2 Pierce/2 Probe configuration with 4 Delver/3 DRS/3 Mongoose/2 Goyf. Mongoose suffers from the same problem as DRS when it comes to playing multiples. Mongoose are really bad before threshold and supporting more than 1 DRS is very difficult so I cut them both down to 3 and tried the 2 Goyf tech suggested by Sasan because the deck lacked pressure.

On the topic of the manabase again, I adopted the Taiga now that I play 2 Goyfs and 3 DRS. However, I still think that playing the 2nd Volcanic over the 4th fetch is a mistake. Fetches give you access to all your duals and act as DRS and Mongoose food, playing the 8 available fetches is a no-brainer. I don't think you need to have more than 2 red sources to support 4 Bolts. We don't even have 3 black sources for 3 DRS and 2 Decays...

My current SB looks like this:


2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fire Covenant
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

[Sasan]

No one denies that playing Probes has benefits. The information advantage is nice. I am with you there. But we cut some of our best cards. I know that American RUG Delver lists play Probes now. It is the new trend. But the trend will be over soon when people realize that they need 60 cards decks and not 58 card decks with more value.

Spell Pierce is really bad in the current meta consisting of cc2 spells and creatures. I cannot justify running it in the main deck. Everything Pierce is good at can be done with Decays (Planeswalkers, Equipment etc.).

Mongoose is bad at multiples? No Sir. It is slow to reach Thresh and Thought Scour is needed? No, RUG Delver never played with Scours or Probes in the past and no one complained about multiple Mongeese or a slow clock. It is play style dependent but you have your fast clock with Delver/Shaman. Mongoose is a mid game card versus midrange and control decks :-)

Darkblast is ok but too slow to remove multiple creatures. And -1/-1 does not remove a Shaman or a Stoneforge. It is not the best way to cut your best sideboard spell for a semi good card.

Just my two cents ;-)

[Rico Suave]

Playing with Ooze instead of double Goyfs is a bit lackluster. This is not the current state of the development of the archetype. Only the 13 creature base with Goyfs is flexible enough for many matchups. Without Goyfs you do not have a late game bomb. Ooze is slow and is only a one off.

The interesting question is if the inclusion of Probes makes up for all these disadvantages. Remember that you play with only 58 real cards with two Probes.I can answer that: No. Two Probes make the chance of drawing an extra removal, extra creature, extra land only slightly better (your chances of drawing one is 1/58 with two Probes Nd 1/60 without them). The extra information provided by the Probes is not worth it as a good player can foresee many situations. So Probe is ok but not needed. We have better options. I can think that Jacob Wilson, a RUG Delver player, will disagree here ;-)

As a friend of Steve and having talked with him about the deck during the tournament, as well as watching him play a couple games when my own matches were done, I can comment about these criticisms.

Firstly, I don't understand how you claim "without Goyfs you do not have a late game bomb" when clearly Ooze can grow to a much greater extent than Goyf. I watched Steve use an Ooze at 7/7 to punch through a large blocker when Goyf would not have done the same. I think your analysis of the situation is biased and flawed.

Secondly, in regards to Probe: both Steve and I agreed that Probe was key in winning matches. Personally I won at least one game simply due to Probe's information alone, not to mention multiple instances across several matches where the information was critical in allowing me to properly sequence my spells, prepare my strategic lines and setup conditional cards. Steve agreed that running a combination of Probes and Pierces was superior to a combination of Pierces and Snares, and he was very happy about the configuration.

As for the SB he mentioned he was likely going to be immediately changing several cards.

[Sasan]

Hey can you perhaps ask Steve to join this thread? We need some more good bUrg players here.

My opinion about Ooze was based more on the number (one instead of two) and not regarding the card in general. I think Goyf is better
in the end but I understand running Ooze, but two would be a more solid number as one is random.

Concerning Probes: It is a never ending talk that RUG Delver players always have had. There is no real right answer. But we have less flex slots than Canadian, so Probes can lead to cutting some key cards. But again: Probes is not the worst choice in this deck.

I am looking forward to talk to Steve in this thread.

[Pdingo]

Nice Nice finally a top 16 in the USA! :D

@Probe

i only can agree with Sasan. We Need the 60 Cards and Spell snare maybe Pierce are so damn Important. We don't Need Information..

@Goyf and Ooze

Well it's a Meta choice..but i see goyf over the ooze because we dont have enough green mana. ooze can be bolten that't a other reason i dont like him.
Against gy decks Counter and shaman are 90% times enough.

[TheKingslayer]

I feel spell snare helps catch a lot of cards that are potentially game ending. Maybe I'm biased because I play against a lot of Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf.

[Qweerios]

No one denies that playing Probes has benefits. The information advantage is nice. I am with you there. But we cut some of our best cards. I know that American RUG Delver lists play Probes now. It is the new trend. But the trend will be over soon when people realize that they need 60 cards decks and not 58 card decks with more value.

I fail to understand how people need 60 cards and not 58, or how Probe is not considered a card... That seems to be one of the virtual advantages of Probe, not one of its disadvantages. You aren't cutting your strongest cards or key cards for that matter, you are filling flex slots (AKA: situational cards) with consistency cards that make your core cards more readily available. Wouldn't RUG play 40 cards if they could? I think so yes, because if RUG could play 6 Delvers, they probably would. Consistency is key in RUG. As far as "not being a card" goes, Probe has to be cast, it gives you hand information, it makes you draw a card, and it puts a sorcery in your GY, if thats not a card, I don't know what is.

Then you might ask, why isn't RUG playing 4 Probes then if it is so good? To that I reply, because I am afraid the life cost can become a liability when you cast 2-3 copies per game. Probe is more than a trend, it has been around since its release and when RUG's core cards are well-rounded for the meta, Probe is a good choice.

Spell Pierce is really bad in the current meta consisting of cc2 spells and creatures. I cannot justify running it in the main deck. Everything Pierce is good at can be done with Decays (Planeswalkers, Equipment etc.).

Have you considered Instants and Sorceries? Piercing a T2 main phase Brainstorm is quite common, or a T2 StP being played around Daze. It is safe for a control deck to play around Daze vs. RUG, but unreasonable to play around Pierce in most cases. There is also the issue of Planeswalkers where Pierce doesn't allow a Liliana to make you sacrifice a Mongoose. And for the other Planeswalkers being played? Well those can't exactly be answered with Snare or Decay at all...

Mongoose is bad at multiples? No Sir. It is slow to reach Thresh and Thought Scour is needed? No, RUG Delver never played with Scours or Probes in the past and no one complained about multiple Mongeese or a slow clock. It is play style dependent but you have your fast clock with Delver/Shaman. Mongoose is a mid game card versus midrange and control decks :-)

Here is a very successful RUG list that plays with 3 Thought Scours: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpstr13/welcome#1 It's not the first time he and his fellow teammates place in major tournaments using 2-3 Thought Scours. I have used Thought Scour in combination with Delver triggers, DRS, Goyf, Mongoose/Tombstalker before and it is extremely underrated. It also acts as an additional Ponder for cards like LftL, Darkblast, and has fringe applications against decks playing Top, Miracles, Enlightened Tutor, Personal Tutor, or simply turning Submerge into hard removal.

Darkblast is ok but too slow to remove multiple creatures. And -1/-1 does not remove a Shaman or a Stoneforge. It is not the best way to cut your best sideboard spell for a semi good card.

By that logic, Decay is even slower and cannot remove multiple creatures. Granted Darkblast cannot remove DRS or SFM, however, Covenant cannot remove DRS or SFM in time either, which is where they really shine because they give our opponent a tempo advantage and/or color availability. I don't think we have Covenant so that we can nuke DRS on T3-4, but because it is a 1 sided board wipe if timely drawn and used. In order to get the most value out of covenant you must spend a lot of life, and that window of opportunity quickly evaporates when your opponent has a lot of creatures. In practice, covenant's effectiveness is inversely proportional to its availability. Just like Covenant, Darkblast is very matchup-specific. I wouldn't call it a semi-good card because it can potentially convert every single drawn card into hard removal in the matchups I mentioned above. It has less immediate impact than Covenant but it is redundant and much easier to cast. Besides, you will rarely cast more than 1 Covenant per game... not as much so because you win right away, but because you simply cannot afford to get the same value out of it twice. And there you have it, a logical argument as to why I think a split of Dark Blast and Covenant is better than 2 copies of Covenant. I value arguments over opinions, but that's just my personal opinion.

Just my two cents ;-)

[Pdingo]

@Kingslayer

Agree. That's the reason why we should Play Snare over pierce. Sometimes Stoneblade can be a tricky Match up!

[Sasan]

You can hit spells with Snare that make you nearly instant dead :-P With my sideboard you can benefit from Pierce in game 2 and 3 and have only some slight disadvanges versus some decks in game 1. But these disadvantages are compensated by Decay. I feel that Pierce and Probe is a better team than Snare/Probe. But I would not play with Probes in the first place.

[sherko7]

Someone playing BURG got top 8 last weekend here in the PH. Not sure if he lingers around here though. I was playing RUG (I still don't own U. Seas) and we met in the top 8. He beat me 3 games, pretty close fight. Here are a few things regarding the matchup...

1. RUG VS BURG is a bit tricky for RUG. BURG has decays, so Goyfs are pretty clumsy.
2. It was pretty easy to deny BURG off a color. Whether red, black or green (blue of course would be harder). Whenever I had a Goyf in my hand I'd try to deny him off of either black or green so he won't be able to Decay me. I'd save up my wastes for when he misses a land drop before I play my Goyf. At the very least I'd untap with Goyf still in play.
3. During game 3, I was able to cut him off of red and this forced him to hold the Bolt he had while I was down on life. Unfortunately, he drew it after flipping a Delver FTW.
4. He didn't play Goyf, if I remember the decklist correctly he played 4/4/4 of Delver/Goose/DRS.
5. In 3 games, I never had a problem reaching thresh with against an active DRS.
6. Rough//Tumble is pretty live against BURG. I board it in since I board out most counterspells anyway. RUG counterspells are often used to protect threats. Abrupt Decay nullifies this.
7. RUG can beat BURG cards 1 for 1 (of course BURG can beat RUG 1 for 1 as well).
8. I got loam locked game 2 after a hard fought battle over lands I won. So obviously, Loam wins the matchup.

I think the matchup is 50-50. We fought a hard battle and like I said, both decks seem to answer the other 1:1. The board is where it gets tricky. Pyroblasting cantrips after a counter war over Stifle/Wastes are almost always correct. He started games 2 and 3 with a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe which, I think, was the difference. He had all the info in the opening turns and every battle I won was almost as if orchestrated. :laugh:

[Star|Scream]

Darkblast is ok but too slow to remove multiple creatures. And -1/-1 does not remove a Shaman or a Stoneforge. It is not the best way to cut your best sideboard spell for a semi good card.

Just my two cents ;-)

Darkblast can deal with those creatures if you use it in your upkeep. You do lose your draw step, though, but at least you fill your graveyard for mongoose and shaman.

[Sasan]

@Sherko7: I agree with all of your post. Thanks for that. I think the matchup is slightly in our favor if we play with my list including two Goyfs.

@Star|Scream: Yup. But it is a bit slow.

[Qweerios]

@Sasan,

How is Darkblast slow? It costs 1 mana, it doesn't get any faster than that. You seem to be the only one under the impression that Darkblast is meant to kill DRS or SFM? Correct me if I am wrong, but Darkblast is probably the best card to kill x/1 creatures, and those happen to be quite popular right now. Allow me to list a few off the top of my head that I cared to kill with Darkblast in the past:


Baleful Strix
Phyrexian Revoker
Gravecrawler
Blood Artist
Dark Confidant
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Welder
Goblin Sharpshooter
Grim Lavamancer
Young Pyromancer
Delver of Secrets
Cursecatcher
Silvergill Adept
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Dryad Arbor
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Scryb Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Quirion Ranger
Llanowar Elves
Elvish Visionary
Priest of Titania
Mother of Runes
Weathered Wayfarer
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Flickerwisp
Aven Mindcensor
Mangara of Corondor
Lingering Souls
Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Darkblast gives you an edge against DnT, Elves, Goblins, Grixis Pyromancer, and Maverick for instance.

[Royce Walter]

@Sasan,

How is Darkblast slow? It costs 1 mana, it doesn't get any faster than that. You seem to be the only one under the impression that Darkblast is meant to kill DRS or SFM? Correct me if I am wrong, but Darkblast is probably the best card to kill x/1 creatures, and those happen to be quite popular right now. Allow me to list a few off the top of my head that I cared to kill with Darkblast in the past:


Baleful Strix
Phyrexian Revoker
Gravecrawler
Blood Artist
Dark Confidant
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Welder
Goblin Sharpshooter
Grim Lavamancer
Young Pyromancer
Delver of Secrets
Cursecatcher
Silvergill Adept
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Dryad Arbor
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Scryb Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Quirion Ranger
Llanowar Elves
Elvish Visionary
Priest of Titania
Mother of Runes
Weathered Wayfarer
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Flickerwisp
Aven Mindcensor
Mangara of Corondor
Lingering Souls
Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Darkblast gives you an edge against DnT, Elves, Goblins, Grixis Pyromancer, and Maverick for instance.

You killed an elspeth with darkblast? That is impressive.

[Lennard]

You killed an elspeth with darkblast? That is impressive.

not able to think that out? sad.....

[Qweerios]

About as impressive as killing a Lingering Souls right? Considering it's a Sorcery...

I will just go ahead and assume most readers understood what was meant by listing Elspeth.

[Sasan]

ok Darkblast kills one 1/1 per turn for the sake of losing my draw step. What about killing x 1/1s and 1/2s and perhaps Goyf potentially on turn two without losing my draw step? That card exists: It is called Fire Covenant. We have no means to generate card advantage. That is why we need our draw steps. Loam is the only exception as it destroys the opponent's resources and slows his development. Darkblast cannot reach that. We can ask the other fellow bUrg players: Is Darkblast worth a SB slot?

[Pdingo]

@Darkblast
He's a cool card but not that good in a tempodeck like this. why?
-We dont need a lot dredge because it's skeping a draw step.
He doesnt make card advange. Loam are a very diffrent card that us give card backs and makes card advange. Card advenge is very important in a tempo deck!
-What can we kill with blast?
Well a lot like delver and bob of course. But do we need that?
The answer is No ,because we have enough removal+counter.
You need to kill an oppentents shaman instantly. And when we play darkblast twice in a turn with dredge we kill it but makes no card advange. We have better options like bolt! SB options are:
Submerge;) disfigure, grim lavamancer and i like this card a lot on my meta:
Dread of night ;)) important against a lot soul deck or mavericks and death n taxes.
Oh and dont forget the best spell fire coventant.:)

Greets and feel free to post!

[personalbackfire]

Hello all, I played this deck to 12th place this past weekend at SCG Philly. I have started writing a report and will post it within a day or two.

Just to comment on my list real fast (2 Probes 2 Spll Pierce 0 Snare).

I started with the list that Florain Koch posted in a channelfireball article a few months ago. That is where my creature base and sideboard, as well as the rest of the maindeck came from. I didn't know this thread existed, which is too bad since there is a lot of good info in it.

I played that exact maindeck (3 Snare 1 Pierce 0 Probe) with a slightly different sb 2 weekends ago to a 4-2 finish in a 30ish people local tournament.

To be honest I really liked Spell Snare, as it counters a lot in legacy. My biggest issue with the deck, other than the SB was the mana. I really did not think that it was 'rock solid' at all and started to think about ways to improve it. I mulligained a lot with the deck and felt like an additional colored source might be needed, especially since Wasteland pretty much only casts my 1 Ooz.

After talking to some better players they mentioned instead of adding a land, or cutting a waste for another Trop, I should try adding a few probes. The benefits (as everyone knows) is you get free info for basically free, an the mana ratio goes up a tiny bit if you think of probe as not a card. I cut the Snare's instead of Pierce since I figured I have Bolts and Decays to answer 2 drops. This decision was reinforced when I looked at the recent SCG Rug lists that were doing well. Most of them I saw played 2 Probe, 2 Pierce, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle.

I liked how Probe played a lot this past weekend. I feel like it is at its best in the early game. Probing someone turn 1 or 2 just gains you so much info on how you should properly be playing the game. You can not possibly know every card in your opponents hand that in early in the game. I was happy with Pierce but was wondering about Snare. Ultimately it might be a preference to play with Probes or not. I liked the deck both times I've played it.

As a follow up, my mana did not feel bad this weekend either. Obviously I can't say that was all because of Probe, but I am sure it helped in some small way.

I really liked my Ooze both times I've played it and would consider playing the second one. The problem is that there is no room. I would have to cut the probes to fit in the second in, which as I said could go either way.

Another issue I think the deck has isn't so much the ability to close out games but the ability to fight bigger creatures. I am sure that is where the 2 Goyfs (or 2nd Ooze) come in handy.

As far as the Rug match, I didn't play it at SCG but did play it a week ago in a tournament, as well as playing against an additional BUG tempo deck. Deathrite Shaman and Ooze felt like they gave me an edge in the match. Being able to control your opponenets thresh and goyfs seemed to be a big part of the match.

Just my thoughts,
Steve

[Sasan]

Thanks for the information Steve. good to have you here :)

Snares vs Pierce is a meta call as mentioned in the primer. The meta is shifting a bit back from Jund and midrange decks. So perhaps becomes good again. We have to wait.

Probes vs No Probes is a matter of belief. Do we want to play more quality cards
or do we need more cantrips that thin out the deck and make the mana base a little bit better? The biggest disadvantage of Probes seems to be that you can only play one beatstick in the list.

Your sideboard is rock solid and great. I would perhaps find room for another counter there ;-)

Although I do not agree with all of your choices I am really happy for your great finish. I will link your tournament report in the primer so that it does not get lost here. Just looking forward to it :-P

[Pdingo]

nice finish!

The only thing i don't like are the Probes. Yes they give us Information and a Card. But do we really Need that in bUrg? Probes are bad in the Lategame. Counter to but Probes are bader i think.
Probes are nice in the Starthand. But Counter(Snare/Pierce)too and i think they are a lot more important.

The Ooze is still a meta choice.

Graatz to the nice finish men!

Feel free to post

[Qweerios]

@Darkblast
He's a cool card but not that good in a tempodeck like this. why?
-We dont need a lot dredge because it's skeping a draw step.
He doesnt make card advange. Loam are a very diffrent card that us give card backs and makes card advange. Card advenge is very important in a tempo deck!
-What can we kill with blast?
Well a lot like delver and bob of course. But do we need that?
The answer is No ,because we have enough removal+counter.
You need to kill an oppentents shaman instantly. And when we play darkblast twice in a turn with dredge we kill it but makes no card advange. We have better options like bolt! SB options are:
Submerge;) disfigure, grim lavamancer and i like this card a lot on my meta:
Dread of night ;)) important against a lot soul deck or mavericks and death n taxes.
Oh and dont forget the best spell fire coventant.:)

Greets and feel free to post!

-You are not skipping a draw step when you dredge a removal spell when you need it. You are drawing the card you need when you need it, and it fills your graveyard in the process. Unless you are just dredging Darkblast for the sake of having a dead card in your hand, then you are, in effect, playing terribly. It is not about creating card advantage, but about having superior draws against specific decks. Life from the Loam doesn't provide any useful card advantage if you can't couple it with a Brainstorm and it occupies an entirely different slot to begin with.

-We don't need removal? We have enough already? Then why are we dedicating SB slots for removal spells in the first place? It appears to me that you are completely missing the point here. Have you ever been in topdeck mode with a tempo deck? Have you ever used a Ponder or a Brainstorm to dig for a removal spell? If yes, then look carefully at Darkblast and at its availability. You only need to use it once to be able to convert your draw step into removal for any of the previously mentioned cards. Being able to Darkblast during your upkeep, and again after your draw and 2-for-1'ing yourself is a plus. It isn't the most profitable way to use Darkblast but at least the card allows such a use, and therefore it should be regarded as a potential play rather than joining both your eyes together in the same socket and complain at how you need to use 2 Darkblasts to get rid of a DRS or a SFM when the goal of the card is clearly not to deal with those 2 cards, it simply can.

-I believe I addressed the last point already so I won't repeat myself.

On an unrelated note, I will be trying out a Thought Scour bUrg list at a local tournament tonight. I will let you guys know how it performs.

[cheerios]

Someone playing BURG got top 8 last weekend here in the PH. Not sure if he lingers around here though. I was playing RUG (I still don't own U. Seas) and we met in the top 8. He beat me 3 games, pretty close fight. Here are a few things regarding the matchup...

1. RUG VS BURG is a bit tricky for RUG. BURG has decays, so Goyfs are pretty clumsy.
2. It was pretty easy to deny BURG off a color. Whether red, black or green (blue of course would be harder). Whenever I had a Goyf in my hand I'd try to deny him off of either black or green so he won't be able to Decay me. I'd save up my wastes for when he misses a land drop before I play my Goyf. At the very least I'd untap with Goyf still in play.
3. During game 3, I was able to cut him off of red and this forced him to hold the Bolt he had while I was down on life. Unfortunately, he drew it after flipping a Delver FTW.
4. He didn't play Goyf, if I remember the decklist correctly he played 4/4/4 of Delver/Goose/DRS.
5. In 3 games, I never had a problem reaching thresh with against an active DRS.
6. Rough//Tumble is pretty live against BURG. I board it in since I board out most counterspells anyway. RUG counterspells are often used to protect threats. Abrupt Decay nullifies this.
7. RUG can beat BURG cards 1 for 1 (of course BURG can beat RUG 1 for 1 as well).
8. I got loam locked game 2 after a hard fought battle over lands I won. So obviously, Loam wins the matchup.

I think the matchup is 50-50. We fought a hard battle and like I said, both decks seem to answer the other 1:1. The board is where it gets tricky. Pyroblasting cantrips after a counter war over Stifle/Wastes are almost always correct. He started games 2 and 3 with a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe which, I think, was the difference. He had all the info in the opening turns and every battle I won was almost as if orchestrated. :laugh:

I was the BURG guy you faced on the tourney. I played a list similar to the SCG build last Sunday. The main difference was my lack of Goyfs and my use of Bayou instead of Taiga. I used Bayou over Taiga because I wanted to utilize my 4 DRS properly. As mentioned by Sasan earlier, playing with a set of DRS will demand a lot of black mana. I didn't use a Badland cause the decks needs at least a blue mana soure and a green mana source to survive. I still see the deck as a UGxy thresh deck.

On the topic of playing with zero Goyfs, the deck should be able to handle it with Decay and DRS if DRS survives the early turns. However, the deck will have a hard time handling multiple Goyfs on the board. Post board, BURG has a lot of answers for a resolved Goyf (Decay, Submerge, and DRS with bolt).

On playing this over the traditional Canadian Thresh, playing DRS can answer several problem cards that trouble the UGR version. I was able to win on Game 1 versus dredge thanks to drawing multiple shamans on my opening hand. The shamans also did a lot of work versus the DNT's Rishadan Port. DRS can also deny an opposing DRS from generating mana.

The BURG mana base can be a bit wonky if DRS dies or if you crack fetchlands prematurely. The deck almost needs 3 lands in the board always. 1 Blue dual, 1 Green dual, and 1 Fetch land.

If I were playing as RUG vs BURG, I wouldn't side in rough/tumble, it can only kill shaman which can be easily handled by bolt. Play probe whether its RUG or BURG your playing.

Why don't we name this German Thresh or something else in line with the traditional weird Legacy naming conventions? :)

[cheerios]

For the guys playing fire covenant, don't you find it hard to cast versus Thalia decks?

[Pdingo]

@querioos dont know why i you like dark blast so much, you have a lot better options.
And we don't need more removal.
When you like him play it but i play the deck enough long to say that he's not the best option..
When you wanna fight a thalia or mother. You should play dread of night or more fire coventant. we don't need to fight a delver or
something with a darkblast..Dark blast is bad against tempo decks..

@thought scour
Why we should play thouthtscour?
We don't have a lot space for that..

@the name of burg

bUrg is still a german name. Burg meens on german: Castle. It's a big castle to fight.
And it's still represent the colours of the deck. I like the name more than the boring german treshhold.

[cheerios]

@Bdingo, oh, I didn't know that Burg was a German word. I just thought that it represented the decks colors. Burg it is then! German thresh sounds like a rip off.

[Sasan]

@Cheerios: It is a smart move to play more black sources when you play the full set of Shamans. Playing the full set of Shamans can be enough to warrant not to play with Goyfs. But I would give you the advice to play with 1-2 creatures in the sideboard that have an impact and can end games (Goyf,Ooze, Reanimate). In matchups where a beatstick is needed (Tribal, Goyf mirrors) you can board them in and make the matchup easier for you.
About Fire Covenant: You are right that it might be hard to cast versus Thalia decks, especially Death and Taxes. Death and Taxes has a mana denial theme. Versus them it is important to take hands with 3 lands and stabilize. Loam comes there handy as a source of protection. Thalia is another reason why the Spell Snare approach of my list is perhaps better in the current meta compared to the Spell Pierce/Probes approach.

@ Thought Scour: It had its shining moment when Sneak Attack decks reigned. It was an easy way to get Mongoose to thresh. As combo decks are not so dominant in the current meta and as you have a new powerful one drop versus combo - Shaman - it is out of question that Thought Scour can play a relevant role in bUrg. Even Canadian Thresh decks do not play him anymore.

@ Darkblast: To clear up the misunderstandings: It is a good card but perhaps it serves more in decks with more black sources, as it is important to use it sometimes 2 times a turn. I think it is an ok card in bUrg but nothing that will wreck the opponent. Golgari Charm seems betterto deal with a horde of 1/1s. Dread of Night is better versus DnT and Maverick. Fire Covenant is strictly better versus all creatures that are x/2> *and* is really ok versus hordes of 1/1s. To sum it up: Fire Covenant is a damn flexible card that is in my opinion needed in tight sideboards without so much removal space.

[Sasan]

The Primer has a new sction: Feature deck list of the moment.

I feature Steve's list. Please read the post and join the discussion:

Feature Deck List of the Moment

In this section I will post the most current list that did well in a tournament and will analyze it if it has some differences compared to my list. My list serves as a blueprint, a good starting point for beginners, is tested thousands of times by some of the best legacy players in Germany. But we must accept that there are more routes to victory than only one list. Furthermore we need to develop the deck in the future and therefore need innovations. These are the reasons for this section.

Let us look at the list of our fellow forum member Stephen. He did an impressive 12th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open Phildalphia on 9/8/2013. He closely lost the match for top 8 versus Dredge.


bUrg by Stephen Nowakowski

Main Deck:
Creatures (12)
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze
Lands (18)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (30)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam


So what are the differences in Steve's list?

First of all the sideboard is nearly identical to the fix slots I proposed. It has perhaps one counterspell less but that is due to his main deck approach. We can assume that the sideboard is within the range of my list.

But the main deck is where the differences begin:

He has cut two Goyfs and three Snares for one Ooze, 2 Pierces and 2 Probes.

I stated in the primer that Ooze is not a solid card for the sideboard. It has not so much impact versus the decks you baord him in as there are better sideboard options. But Ooze in the main deck is a different affair. It ups our main deck grave hate number to four. Ooze can fight Punishing Fire better than Shaman as you can pump him up when he comes to play and remove Punishing Fire one turn later. Ooze can outgrow a Goyf or a Tombstalker. But all this comes with a price: Ooze is a bit slow and as a one-off he comes sometimes too late to the party to make an impact - as hee needs rougly 2 turns to grow to a good game finisher. That is why I still prefer to play Goyf as he is always 4/5 and not demanding that much green mana as Ooze. Only one Ooze seems also a bit random. But Steve did not have the deck space.

The Spell Pierce/Probe package is the bread and butter of the list and here the differences to my list are beginning to show in a big manner. Jacob Wilson nearly won the GP Strassbourg with the inclusion of Probes to RUG Delver. After that he placed well on several SCG tournaments. Now nearly all American RUG Delver lists play with at least two Probes in the main deck. It is the hype card of the moment. It is often played with the combination of Pierce. But why? With Probes you can see the hand of the opponent and plan the upcoming turns in advance. You see of he has a nasty creature, planeswalker etc in hand. From then, you can plan on which card of the opponent you want to spen our removal on and on which your counters. In this situation Spell Pierce is better compared to Spell Snare. Spell Snare hits creatures and spells that are cc2. It hits many spells that make us nearly instantly dead or slow us down some crucial turns (Stoneforge, Thalia, Counterbalance etc.). Spell Snare is our resest button to prevent serious damage to our game plan. But when you can plan your turns, you know that you must use your decay for the counterbalance, your Bolts versus Stoneforge. You do not need the reset button. You can play now a counterspell that hits all other cards that Decay and Bolt cannot answer. That is Spell Pierce. So you see: Probes and Spell Pierce are a natural fit. When you play bUrg without Probess you must play Snare.

But does Probe make the deck better?

It is better at thining out our deck so that our mana base becomes a little bit better. It is another cantrip like card. It feeds our Goyfs..wait he does not play Goyfs. It is good versus combo as you can now see of you can drop a creature and tap out or not.

Probe is worse in top deck mode than a real card. It makes us play less spells and creatures at it takes deck space. One real downside is that you cannot play with two Goyfs anymore. That was the main reason that bUrg was out of the radar for a few months: The lists with only 11 creatures without a single Goyf and the ones with 12 creatures with only one Goyf had real problems in the midrange meta game where you need a constant late game bomb. That is why my innovation with the creature base consiting of two Goyfs helped a lot to become beter in the current meta game.

But Sasan, why did Steve make an impressive finish at SCG? Well let us look at the meta:

Elves 1st Reid Duke
Reanimator 2nd Shawn Tappen
Sneak and Show 3rd
Goblins 4th Jim Davis
The Epic Storm 5th Bryant Cook
Maverick 6th Jacob Lindy
Dredge 7th Theo Van Doosselaere
W/B/R Deathblade 8th Tom Hertfelder
Merfolk 9th Brandon Landis
U/W/R Delver 10th Ben Friedman
Reanimator 11th Josh Rhoades
bUrg 12th Stephen Nowakowski
RUG Delver 13th Joe Demestrio
Lands 14th Kurt Spiess
Sneak and Show 15th Chris VanMeter
Omni-Tell 16th Christopher Hein

It is really combo heavy - I count Elves and Dredge as combo decks by the way. In this meta Steve's list shines: Ooze is great versus Reanimator and Dredge. Probes are excellent versus combo. You do not need so much creatures versus combo and best of all: Spell Pierce is superior versus combo compared to Snare.

There you have it: Steve's list is a superstar in a combo meta. I would perhaps only advice him to play with 4 Misty Rainforests next time. Reasons are stated in the primer.

But as you know my word is not the final verdict in that case. I encourage our fellow bUrg players to comment on Steve's list. It will help to improve bUrg.

Here is a tournament report from Steve: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26713-SCG-Philly-12th-Place-bUrg-Delver&p=750933&posted=1#post750933

[sherko7]

So I don't have Goyfs atm and no Taiga so I can't really play Ooze I think. I'm thinking Vendillion Clique in that slot? Any better ideas?:cool:

[Sasan]

Play with two Cliques and three tropicals. It is ok, not brilliant but ok ;-)


We need more discussion on the feature deck list of the moment ;)

[personalbackfire]

So I don't have Goyfs atm and no Taiga so I can't really play Ooze I think. I'm thinking Vendillion Clique in that slot? Any better ideas?:cool:

I think you could try a 3rd Trop and play an Ooze. That keeps the same number of green sources for Ooze and Deathrite.

By the way, I posted my report in the Tournament Reports thread yesterday.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26713-SCG-Philly-12th-Place-bUrg-Delver

[sherko7]

I am 1 U. Sea and 1 Taiga away from completing BURG! Been playtesting with proxies as well as Cockatrice. Here's my decklist:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory

I'm playing 1 Ooze simply because I don't own Goyfs. I can probably borrow them if I were to play in a tourney. The deck feels really good right now. It is true, 1 DRS in play is enough, the manabase simply can't handle more unless you have 3 in play and use one of the Shamans to turn the other one on. :laugh:

The Arcane Laboratory and Sulfur Elemental is my flex slot. I'd like to play Flusterstorms if I had them, but then again the maindeck already feels great against combo. I'm thinking of swapping the Lab for an Engineered Plague but I'm not sure if that's overkill against aggro.

I miss Forked Bolt! :frown:

[Sasan]

great that your deck is nearly complete. Just play Ooze while you save money for your Goyfs.

Sulfur Elemental is strictly worse than Dread of Night.

Why do you play Arcane Lab? In what matchups will this card help you?

And at least Flusterstorms should be your next investment after Taiga/Usea and the 2 Goyfs ;-)

Right now Engineered Plague is not needed.

[sherko7]

great that your deck is nearly complete. Just play Ooze while you save money for your Goyfs.

Sulfur Elemental is strictly worse than Dread of Night.

Why do you play Arcane Lab? In what matchups will this card help you?

And at least Flusterstorms should be your next investment after Taiga/Usea and the 2 Goyfs ;-)

Right now Engineered Plague is not needed.

Yep, I can borrow Goyfs anyway. :tongue:

I should try Dread of Night!

Arcane Lab is for Storm and Omnitell, but mainly for Omnitell. They use Defense Grids which shut our countermagic down. At worse, it baits one of our counters. Same reason I keep Spell Snares against them. It doesn't help with Storm much as it costs 3, but T1 DRS into T2 Arcane Lab is nuts.

Flusterstorms would definitely be my next purchase after the duals of course.

[Sasan]

Arcane Lab is not needed versus combo as you have so much counterspells.

Defense Grid can be handled by Decay.

[Philipp2293]

Have you read Xantid Swarm? I don't think you want to run this card in bUrg ;)

[Sasan]

You should not post without reading the card :( My memories were that the card takes effect in the opponent's turn. Sorry for the bad mistake.

[Sasan]

https://picasaweb.google.com/111411363627187379760/Magic

Here are pics of my deck. I wanted to show you that I firmly believe in the power of the deck ;-) That is why the complete main deck has been altered, even the duals. The sideboard is Japanese only. Those cards that are not available in black bordered Japanese (Pyroblast, Fire Covenant) are signed by the artist. I hope you like it :-)

[Philipp2293]

Sorry if my initial comment was a bit too harsh. That's a nice deck indeed ;)

[Sasan]

no problem. i did not find it harsh.

thanks for the remark. every one makes mistakes and although I know nearly all legacy staples some small mistakes can occur ;-)

Thanks concerning my deck.

[sherko7]

https://picasaweb.google.com/111411363627187379760/Magic

Here are pics of my deck. I wanted to show you that I firmly believe in the power of the deck ;-) That is why the complete main deck has been altered, even the duals. The sideboard is Japanese only. Those cards that are not available in black bordered Japanese (Pyroblast, Fire Covenant) are signed by the artist. I hope you like it :-)

Damn beautiful alters! All done by same artist I presume? Love the work on the Underground Sea. :tongue:

[Sasan]

Thanks :) they are from three artists but the mana base is from the same artist and creatures from another one and spells from the third one. I wanted some consistency ;-)

[Sasan]

I updated the primer with two new boarding strategies versus two decks that have gained a lot of steam in the last couple of weeks:


//Painter's Servant:
//-4 Wasteland - 2 Mongoose - 1 Goyf + 2 Pierce + 2 Flusterstorm + 2 ReB + 1 Grudge

//Grixis Delver:
//OTP:- 4 Force -2 Daze + 2 Fire Covenant + 2 ReB + 2 Fluster + 1 Loam
//OTD:- 4 Daze -2 Force + 2 Fire Covenant + 2 ReB + 2 Fluster + 1 Loam

[Barsoom]

Hello all, i'm a MUD player and i just played 5 games on cockatrice against a BURG player, and i won 5-0 (2 games main 3 games side); it was the first time i met a deck with Deathrite+Canadian so i asked for the name and then found this thread; i checked your sideboard table and i see you have no info for MUD; i don't think you can claim a 50/50 against MUD after what i saw; i had good hands all 5 games for sure but 5 wins to 0 it's indeed a thing.

My post is not for being rude or brag me but i think you should not underestimate MUD with this deck; Wurmcoil Engine was usually the mvp; my list is the Kuldotha Forgemaster one without Goblin Welder; against him i sided 3x Defense Grid and 2x Ratchet Bomb.

[Sasan]

You are right that MUD can become a tricky matchup. With tight and fast play we can make it. But it is difficult.


Here are some new sideboard guide updates:

//Hypergenesis:
//-3 Snare - 1 Mongoose -2 Goyf + 2 Pierce + 2 ReB + 2 Fluster


//MUD:
-4 Stifle + 2 Pierce + 1 Grudge + 1 Loam

//Pox:
//OTP: -4 Force -2 Bolt + 2 Pierce + 1 Fluster + 1 Compost + 1 Loam + 1 Grudge
//OTD: -4 Force -1 Daze -2 Bolt + 2 Pierce + 2 Fluster + 1 Compost + 1 Loam + 1 Grudge

//Tin Fins:
//- 1 Bolt-2 Decay-2 Goyf -2 Mongoose+2 Pierce+ 2 Fluster+ 2 ReB+1 Nihil

//Stax:
//-1 Bolt -1 Stifle - 1 Daze -1 Force+ 2 Pierce + 1 Grudge + 1 Loam

//All Spells:
//-4 Wasteland + 1 Nihil + 1 Compost + 2 Spell Pierce

//Patriot:
//-4 Daze+ 1 Loam + 1 Grudge + 2 ReB


The last sideboard tech has been developed by Carsten Linden after millions of test sessions versus Geist decks. The other matchups have been tested by me ;)

So now we have nearly every matchup covered :-P

[Sasan]

And an update to the Grixis Delver boarding:


//Grixis Delver:
//OTP:- 2 Force -2 Daze + 2 Fire Covenant + 1 ReB + 1 Loam
//OTD:- 4 Daze -2 Force + 2 Fire Covenant + 2 ReB + 1 Fluster + 1 Loam

And a new boarding tech:


//Turbo Eldrazi
//- 3 Snare - 2 Goyf - 1 Mongoose + 2 ReB + 2 Fluster + 2 Pierce

[Pdingo]

Won Today a little legacy tournament with 12 players;)
(3:1, because of down pairing one of the guys)

Matches:

2:1 against RUG Delver
2:1 against Samuel Black's Pyromancer tokens list.
2:1 against Bant controll
1:2 lose against RUG Delver but very creepy draws(mull to 6) on the draw. But happens.

But still first an won a Plateau:))

List:
4 Delver
4 goose
3 shaman
1 Goyf

4 Ponder

4 BS
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 Pierce
3 Snare
4 Bolt
2 Decay
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
3 Misty
4 scalding
2 usea
2 Volcanic
2 trop
1 Taiga

SB:
2 Submerge
1 Grim
1 ancient grudge
1 fire cov
1 life from the loam
2 REB
2 surgical
2 thoughtseize
1 needle
1 Dread of night
1 Fluster

[Sasan]

congrats :-) great finish ;-)

How did the Thoughtseizes perform?

[Sasan]

The last sideboard tech updates for today:


//Bant:
//-4 Stifle-1 Force -1 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fire+ 1 ReB

//No Bant:
//-4 Stifle-1 Daze + 3 Submerge+2 Fluster

//Zoo:
//- 4 Stifle-1 Daze + 3 Submerge + 1 Nihil + 1 Fire Covenant

//Sliver:
// -4 Stifle -1 Daze + 2 Fire Covenant + 2 ReB + 1 Grudge

Aluren:
// + 2 ReB + 2 Pierce -2 Goyf -1 Mongoose - 1 Bolt

[Pdingo]

@sasan thanks men!

@Thoughtseize

I board those only against combo maybe controll.
I like them alot thoughtseize feels so strong against combo
I would never cut them.

[Sasan]

I have tested Thoughtseize, too and have come to the same conclusion.

I updated the primer and added Thoughtseize to the list of playable cards.


Here is the primer text concerning Thoughtseize:

"Thoughtseize: A card that should not be boarded in versus fair decks. The concept of tempo decks is to generate an advantage by by countering a spell for which mana has been tapped. Thoughtseize cannot reach that goal. Versus combo the card can help a lot by attacking the combo player from two angles: counters and discard spells. But beware that you will still need a good amount of counterspells in your sideboard besides at least two copies of Thoughtseize. As bUrg has already a really good combo matchup without Thoughtseizes, my advice is to save sideboard slots for the more difficult matchups and not to include Thoughtseize. Beware that other discard spells (Hymn, Therapy, Duress etc) are unplayable in bUrg."

[Sasan]

After checking the new Theros cards I can confirm that not a single one has the potential to become a playable card in a bUrg main deck or sideboard.


The only card that seemed nice was Spellheart Chimera.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/demonheart-chimera/

Color: Blue, Red, UR
Type: Creature - Chimera
Rarity: Uncommon
Set: Theros

Flying, trample

Spellheart Chimera’s power is equal to the number of instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard
------

The problem with the card in my testings was that is easily removable. The toughness of 3 make it vulnerable to Lightning Bolt - a card that the rising UR Delver and Grixis decks play. The creature makes us more dependend on the graveyard and stretches the mana base as you need red mana to cast it. So to sum it up: Stay with your Goyfs.

[Pdingo]

I would never Play the Sphinx, she's a crappy creature and die on everything.
In a cc3 i would prefer real creatures like Clique or maybe Snapcaster Mage.

[AngryTroll]

I have a quick question about the Grixis Delver matchup. Burg's trump card in that matchup is Fire Covenant. How much better is that card than Forked Bolt against a deck packing playsets of Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland (and Bolts for Burg's Deathrites)?

According to the sideboarding guide, Burg sides out 2-4 of its Dazes and 2 Force of Wills. Doesn't that make Fire Covenant even more vulnerable to your opponent's Dazes?

[Pdingo]

When you are on the play, he side out daze. When you not he keep them in.
Yes 3 mana is a lot in a tempo mirrot but you have a good match up against grixis delver.
Play around daze. I mean he wouldn't keep his dazes for this.
He play those in the 1-4 turns i think.

[Sasan]

The Main plan is to counter Young Pyromancer with your Snares or to kill it as soon as possible with bolts and decays. Fire Covenant is only the backup plan when you are far behind and must kill a token army. It is an all-in move to help you win a lost game. That is why the boarding is right. You have better options to bring in than keeping some more Dazes and Forces. Do not forget that the brought in REBs can counter the opponents's counterspells. The matchup is not hard: Either you screw them with Loam/Waste/Stifle, snare/kill their pyromancer or kill their army with Fire Covenant. A good matchup.

[Pdingo]

Totaly agree. Snare for the win;)
Probably a good match up.

[lordofthepit]

Do not forget that the brought in REBs can counter the opponents's Dazes.

Why would you REB a Daze? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Megadeus]

Why would you REB a Daze? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Because discarding a card and paying one is better than just paying one

[Star|Scream]

Why would you REB a Daze? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Magic is hard.

[TheKingslayer]

I personally run three Duress in the sideboard over Thoughtseize. While I used to run thoughtseize, I came to the conclusion that the ability to rip creatures is rather irrelevant, and the life loss is relevant (and unfavorably so.)

[Sasan]

Magic is hard.

Yeah you are right, you can just pay U. I did not try hard enough to explain why red elemental blasting a Daze is a good move in this matchup. Sometimes I ReB Dazes to get to Threshold. It occurs rather often in the Grixis matchup that Mongoose does not grow as quickly as I want him to, that is why Pyroblast is superior to ReB as it can target anything just to feed the grave.

Concerning my post above, I should have made that point clearer. Versus Grixis you must try to stick a threat - preferably Mongoose as it is bigger than all their creatures and has shroud - and go and beat with it. In this matchup it is crucial to get Mongoose to Thresh as fast a possbile, therefore I do not side out all Forces.

But I edited my post and now it reads that you can ReB the opponents's counterspells. It is a more general statement and not so misunderstanding.

[Pdingo]

@Duress thoughtseize
I prefer thougtseize to crap a stoneforgemystic some times but yea you can take the batterskull to with duress. The same against SnT to take a griselbrand or emrakul. Sometimes it's just a better choice. I mean your life are not relevant against controll and against combo only against storm. But when they can go in the combo they winn anyway.
But i say. It's a good point to talk.

[Sasan]

The primer has been updated:

I added a Dread of Night to the list and removed Compost from the sideboard.

The reason:

Jund, Deathblade and Shardless BUG fall a little bit of flavor and Death and Taxes and Maverick have a comeback. The Death and Taxes matchup is really hard for most people.


The COMPLETE sideboard guide has been updated as this change has an effect on many matchups and the way to sideboard.

[Sasan]

@Duress thoughtseize
I prefer thougtseize to crap a stoneforgemystic some times but yea you can take the batterskull to with duress. The same against SnT to take a griselbrand or emrakul. Sometimes it's just a better choice. I mean your life are not relevant against controll and against combo only against storm. But when they can go in the combo they winn anyway.
But i say. It's a good point to talk.

Especially versus Stoneforge decks you know when to play the Thoughtseize. As Deathblade - the new version of Esper Blade - has not many counters you can kill the win option really easy. Well if there were not Goblins and Death and Taxes I would advise you to replace the Ancient Grudge with a Thoughtseize. So you would have 7-8 anti combo cards (6 counter spells, 1 piece of grave hate, 1 Thoughtseize).

Concerning the discussion whether Thoughtseize or Duress is superior in bUrg one can say that both cards are very similar versus combo and stoneforge decks. As TS is more flexible and better versus SNT combo decks, I would play TS. But I repeat myself: Discard is not needed in bUrg due to the already good combo matchup and the lack of sideboard slots.

[dunk]

Call me a pussy or biased, but it's time for me to abandon the deck. I'm sure it's mostly variance, but man the deck knows how to piss me off. Either the mana does not work correctly thanks to random shit like drawing Taiga or not drawing the 3rd color and no fetchland, or I hit all lands. Or I get all creatures or no creatures at all. Or opponents who just hit land land land land land land while you feel confidant that your double Waste double Stifle is enough to seal the game...

Maybe it's really just variance or I suck hard with this deck, but unless I'm up against blue based combo or other tempo decks I feel like I have to fight too hard to get somewhere. I'm sick of all Sensei's Tops, Blood Moons and Lilianas of this world, so I decided to just join them. Fighting them feels so pointless if anything your opponent draws is a threat while you are stuck with inferior cards later in the game. The idea behind the deck is cool, but it's not streamlined enough.

[Pdingo]

@dunk maybe you suck with this deck..noting against you;) maybe it's not your playstyle.
I never had problem with this deck and have so good results with this. I mean when you have a taiga in the starthand and no blue source ttake a mulligant that's not bad.you can still easy win. I taked a mulligan to 4 and win the game against rug delver haha(yes lucky).

[Sasan]

The problems dunk has encountered are the ones that tempo deck beginners always have. It is right that the matchup versus midrange decks is perhaps easier if you play a midrange deck, too. But you won't have a fighting chance versus combo. That is the true strength of tempo decks: They can win in all matchups. In some ones it is harder and in some ones it is a bit easier to win. Tempo decks are more skill dependent than let us say Maverick or Jund. So it takes training, training and more training to become really good. So dunk, just try a bit harder :)

[thefreakaccident]

Dunk, are you playtesting the deck online? This could easily explain the levels of variance you experience, as it does not matter how streamlined or redundant your deck is, those online shufflers will give your opponents free wins sometimes, it has nothing to do with the decks themselves.

[Star|Scream]

Dunk, are you playtesting the deck online? This could easily explain the levels of variance you experience, as it does not matter how streamlined or redundant your deck is, those online shufflers will give your opponents free wins sometimes, it has nothing to do with the decks themselves.

Do you have any proof of this other than possible confirmation bias?

[dunk]

The problems dunk has encountered are the ones that tempo deck beginners always have. It is right that the matchup versus midrange decks is perhaps easier if you play a midrange deck, too. But you won't have a fighting chance versus combo. That is the true strength of tempo decks: They can win in all matchups. In some ones it is harder and in some ones it is a bit easier to win. Tempo decks are more skill dependent than let us say Maverick or Jund. So it takes training, training and more training to become really good. So dunk, just try a bit harder :)

I'd say that most of the deck listed in the "decks to beat" area have a fighting chance versus everything. That's why they are tier 1 decks, right? And to be honest, any deck with basiclands has more of a chance versus Blood Moon than one without.
If my goal was to mainly beat combo and have game versus other decks, I'd probably go back to the 3c version - the additional variance 4c brings is nothing for longer tourneys if you ask me.
I should also mention that I'm not the guy who tries to specialize on one deck and plays it all the time. I go with the meta. If I feel a deck doesn't cut it or has to fight too hard to win, well, then it's time for a change. So yeah, I could try harder, or... I just slap turn 1 Top Turn 2 Balance HERP DERP LOCKOUT. Seriously, I fucking hate turn 1 Top vs Tempo. In theory you would think your opponent is in durdling mode now, but in reality all he does is hitting what he needs to, both lands and Terminus. It's an uphill battle I'm not willing to fight. Then there are more fringe decks like Imperial Painter or Manaless Dredge; one being able to lock you out easily while having maindeck red blasts ( and even more after sb ) and where every card is a threat on it's own that needs to be handled, while the other just plays around your plan in any possible way that your only chance to victory would be variance. I also struggle against elves, occasionaly I might get them just by removal + wasteland or Fire Covenant, but otherwise they develop really fast and get a lot of engines and I win buttons, while I draw into useless creatures.


@online: No, the shuffler is not flawed despite what some people think. Maybe I've got telecinetic powers and thus get better draws than my opponents online... or well, maybe not. At least when playing online I know there are no shuffle cheats. My objection about paper is actually that unless you are up against some japanese pro tour regular everyone could be a shady ass. Even at small tournaments I have to tell opponents to look away from my deck while shuffling and watch closely what they do when they sac a fetchland. Legacy is full of cheating opportunities, always be aware of that.


Also, does anyone here plans on getting into Magic Online? There are not many people who play this deck online, except for Flo Koch whose results with the deck don't really blow me to be honest.

[Pdingo]

@dunk

I cant agree with your Argumentation.
When you don't like Play like t1 top and t2 Balance. Then you do something wrong. We have a good match up versus them.
I think you Play tempo completly wrong. Except this deck?

[dunk]

@dunk

I cant agree with your Argumentation.
When you don't like Play like t1 top and t2 Balance. Then you do something wrong. We have a good match up versus them.
I think you Play tempo completly wrong. Except this deck?

I will be honest on myself here: I favor to have 60% even though I make a small mistake compared to 51% where I have to play everything perfect.
Also, keep one thing in mind: UW is the best performing deck on Magic Online. I don't think that's a fluke, and while I wouldn't call the deck "a bad matchup" it still has anything to fight us.

[Sasan]

But there are not any decks that have 60 % matchups versus the rest of the field. If you want to beat Miracles without a problmen, play Goblins. They have a perfect Miracles matchup.

If you want to have a 51% chance of winning against anything, then play bUrg :)

[dunk]

If you want to have a 51% chance of winning against anything, then play bUrg :)

In an unknown field, sure. In a known field I prefer something that can at least pull out 55% :P I found a "new" sweet deck by now anyway, so I'm not worrying. And yeah, I considered Goblins for a brief moment... until I realized that UW has evolved into a direction where it's not that much of an underdog to Goblins as before ( combo kill / more Entreat ) and well, Gobs suck versus everything else I guess ( maybe not Painter... ).

[kiwi]

I have been testing compost these days and the results are very good. If you have problems vs bug control or jund, compost is your card.. Fire covenant also is amazing, congrats for these sideboard techs...

[Sasan]

You are welcome :-) Hope I could help others with the sideboard guide, too.

[Pdingo]

I think compost it to slow. Anyway we have a good match up against jund and shardless bug.

[Griselpuff]

Why are those match-ups good for this deck when they're bad for RUG? I don't really see how Deathrite automatically changes the way they play out by that much.

[Tombstalker]

Yes compost is the bees knees man, covenant too. Ive been experimenting with artifact mutation for batterskull and MUD. Since Sasan is into obscure SB tech I thought id give this one a shout out here.

[thefreakaccident]

I used to love the 'mutations', they were great in the days of scepter chant. I can imagine they're still good, although narrow.

[Sasan]

Kudos for artifact mutation. It is instant speed and gives us 5 1/1 tokens versus batterskull. great stuff. However it is not discard proof like grudge and cannot be used twice. Grudge dodges counter magic, too. But Artifact Mutation is a close second. good sideboard tech.

Compost isn't too slow. It is boarded in grindy matchups that tend to go long. The card advantage wins us these games if our tempo plan does not finish the opponent right from the start.

[sherko7]

This is the current list I'm testing:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Young Pyromancer
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

Young Pyromancer is the shiz! I hated Goyf as it made the deck too GY reliant. I tried playing 3 YP (-1 FoW to the board) but it felt too clunky. Contrary to popular belief, YP does not suck in top deck mode. It gives us 1.5 cards per top deck and yes, the deck doesn't run YP as Grixis Tempo or other "dedicated" YP lists but when both you and your opponent are in top deck mode YP gives us the edge we need. WTH, I think it's worth testing. :tongue:

[Pdingo]

Bad day for bUrg..

2-3-1

Draw against ant...he was thinking so long and without the timeout i would winning this match. 1:2
Lose against maverick..shouldn't happen make a very bad stifle missplay..1:2
Win against esper rip top random deck^^2:1
Lose against loam pox..mull to 4 and with 1 land a good start hand but don't find a land with cantrips lol. 1:2
Win against a new player with reanimate 2:0
Was playing against a friend with youngmancer grixis tempo. 1:2
Was the best game for today. I still think it's a good match up.
I will now playing 2 fire conventants. It's to good.

Shitty day and my badest results.But happens.

[Pdingo]

Bad day for bUrg..

2-3-1

Draw against ant...he was thinking so long and without the timeout i would winning this match. 1:2
Lose against maverick..shouldn't happen make a very bad stifle missplay..1:2
Win against esper rip top random deck^^2:1
Lose against loam pox..mull to 4 and with 1 land a good start hand but don't find a land with cantrips lol. 1:2
Win against a new player with reanimate 2:0
Was playing against a friend with youngmancer grixis tempo. 1:2
Was the best game for today. I still think it's a good match up.
I will now playing 2 fire conventants. It's to good.

Shitty day and my badest results.But happens.

[Sasan]

@pdingo: No problem :-) that can happen. My last tournament was 2-2-2. Sometimes it becomes clear that there is a certain variance.


@ Young Pyromancer: Sherko7, your decklist is almost the same as my stock list but with the difference of YP instead of Goyf. So let us discuss that topic.

Young Pyromancer is better than Goyf...
... in the early game - he is good for speed starts and competes with Shaman, Delver and Wasteland/Stifle in that game state.
...versus Lilliana decks.
...versus decks that rely on Swords or Decay as main removal.


Goyf is better than YP...
... in the late game - therefore we can only run 2 of him as we only need him end game to seal the deal.
...versus tribal.
....versus Punishing Fire decks.


So you see, Goyf has some huge benefits. Goyf is not too bad in the situations where YP shines, it is ok. YP is really bad or not so great in situations where Goyf shines. As you see, playing Goyf is a more balanced approach. As we only have two slots Goyf is superior because YP loves to be a four-off. Furthermore YP stretches the mana base (you need red instead of green in contrast to all creatures besides the blue Delver). With YP you will get moren often mana screwed.

To sum it up:
Goyf is still the way to go.

[sherko7]

@ Young Pyromancer: Sherko7, your decklist is almost the same as my stock list but with the difference of YP instead of Goyf. So let us discuss that topic.

Young Pyromancer is better than Goyf...
... in the early game - he is good for speed starts and competes with Shaman, Delver and Wasteland/Stifle in that game state.
...versus Lilliana decks.
...versus decks that rely on Swords or Decay as main removal.


Goyf is better than YP...
... in the late game - therefore we can only run 2 of him as we only need him end game to seal the deal.
...versus tribal.
....versus Punishing Fire decks.


So you see, Goyf has some huge benefits. Goyf is not too bad in the situations where YP shines, it is ok. YP is really bad or not so great in situations where Goyf shines. As you see, playing Goyf is a more balanced approach. As we only have two slots Goyf is superior because YP loves to be a four-off. Furthermore YP stretches the mana base (you need red instead of green in contrast to all creatures besides the blue Delver). With YP you will get moren often mana screwed.

To sum it up:
Goyf is still the way to go.

I agree with most of your points. However, I feel like YP is much more versatile mid-late game than Goyf. I am planning to put the 3rd YP back in, maybe in place of the 3rd Snare and go up to 14 creatures. I am still unimpressed about Goyf, and how GY-reliant it makes the deck. I feel like DRS + Goose is enough. Cliques might even be better. YP also does good to satisfactory work against Tribal. It creates chump blockers, and sometimes that's more than enough to stall the game and win with Delver/DRS.:tongue:

[joenice]

I have some decent results with this decklist http://czeternal.cz/2013/09/legacy-5-kolo-brno-2/ (my deck is 2nd place). Enginereed Explosives in side was actually Enginereed Plague (metagame call). I already swapped Plague for another Thoughtseize and I am really happy how deck perform. My biggest enemy now is UWR Delver. After SB they have Submerges, Swords, Lightning Bolt and Rest in Peace and I feel like my only chance is counter Rest in Peace and get threshold for Mongoose. In traditional RUG the best side option against them is Rough/Tumble, but due to Shamans I dont like it in BURG and Covenant cant kill Geist and also is pretty bad against tempo decks, mby Pyroclasm can be way to go. Next thing I am considering is adding second Ancient Grudge, because 1 in SB is little bit random and resolved Batterskull is usually game over for us. Grudge can be useful against Shardless Bug too.

[Jax-]

Hi! Im a fan of the deck. This is my list with some explanations:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Snare
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

Misdirection: I know 3 FoWs are ugly but I like how Misdi protect us against super cheap removal like Bolt, Decay and StP, a well timed Misdi can change the game. Its also good vs Tourach and A.Vision.

LftL Maindeck: I seriously think that LftL is broken in this deck. Its synergyc with Wasteland, Goyf, DRS, Goose, Fetchs, even Brainstorm and Ponder, we have DRS so we can cast it more often than RUG and we always side in it against tempo and midrange decks anyway. Having it in G1 imho is pretty strong.

2 Dread of Night: I hate D&T and Maverick. I always want to have one in play every game so 2ofs is necessary.

What I want to try now is -1 Volcanic Island +1 Scalding Tarn. I think that we don't really need the third red source because we never side in both Pyroblast and Fire Covenant. When I have Taiga and Underground Sea in play I always fetch for Tropical, actually for me Volcanic is the worst land and Im never happy when I see two of them. I can't even think of a situation where I need two red source at the same time in play. 8 fetchs give us a little more chance to have both Taiga and Sea in play as fast as possible and the extra shuffle effect in a deck with 8 cantrip is always good.

My 2 cents.

[TheKingslayer]

Hi! Im a fun of the deck. This is my list with some explanations:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Snare
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

Misdirection: I know 3 FoWs are ugly but I like how Misdi protect us against super cheap removal like Bolt, Decay and StP, a well timed Misdi can change the game. Its also good vs Tourach and A.Vision.

LftL Maindeck: I seriously think that LftL is broken in this deck. Its synergyc with Wasteland, Goyf, DRS, Goose, Fetchs, even Brainstorm and Ponder, we have DRS so we can cast it more often than RUG and we always side in it against tempo and midrange decks anyway. Having it in G1 imho is pretty strong.

2 Dread of Night: I hate D&T and Maverick. I always want to have one in play every game so 2ofs is necessary.

What I want to try now is -1 Volcanic Island +1 Scalding Tarn. I think that we don't really need the third red source because we never side in both Pyroblast and Fire Covenant. When I have Taiga and Underground Sea in play I always fetch for Tropical, actually for me Volcanic is the worst land and Im never happy when I see two of them. I can't even think of a situation where I need two red source at the same time in play. 8 fetchs give us a little more chance to have both Taiga and Sea in play as fast as possible and the extra shuffle effect in a deck with 8 cantrip is always good.

My 2 cents.

I agree about the three red sources being an overabundance. The one more counter that can be fit in is much more relevant and so are fetchlands for optimal probability of choosing what land you want.

[cheerios]

I agree with most of your points. However, I feel like YP is much more versatile mid-late game than Goyf. I am planning to put the 3rd YP back in, maybe in place of the 3rd Snare and go up to 14 creatures. I am still unimpressed about Goyf, and how GY-reliant it makes the deck. I feel like DRS + Goose is enough. Cliques might even be better. YP also does good to satisfactory work against Tribal. It creates chump blockers, and sometimes that's more than enough to stall the game and win with Delver/DRS.:tongue:

You'll be needing Goyf versus Punishing Fire.dec

[Sasan]

I have some decent results with this decklist http://czeternal.cz/2013/09/legacy-5-kolo-brno-2/ (my deck is 2nd place). Enginereed Explosives in side was actually Enginereed Plague (metagame call). I already swapped Plague for another Thoughtseize and I am really happy how deck perform. My biggest enemy now is UWR Delver. After SB they have Submerges, Swords, Lightning Bolt and Rest in Peace and I feel like my only chance is counter Rest in Peace and get threshold for Mongoose. In traditional RUG the best side option against them is Rough/Tumble, but due to Shamans I dont like it in BURG and Covenant cant kill Geist and also is pretty bad against tempo decks, mby Pyroclasm can be way to go. Next thing I am considering is adding second Ancient Grudge, because 1 in SB is little bit random and resolved Batterskull is usually game over for us. Grudge can be useful against Shardless Bug too.

Nice list, it is not so different from the stock list, especially in the main deck.

The UWR Delver matchup is totally winnable. It is a matchup where Snare shines - perhaps you want to play three main deck just like me ;-).

For all of you having probls in this matchup I want to introduce you a new secret tech:

Troll Ascetic.


it is the little brother of Thrun. The latter is better but not castable. Troll Ascetic gets the job done, too. It is Mongoose 5 without relying on the graveyard, it can block and kill Geist and regenerate - it is the creature that gives UWR massive headaches besides Mongoose. Troll Ascetic is also good versus all control decks and a resolved Troll against Deathblade
means that they cannot win anymore - a resolved batterskull will end in a draw due to the chump blocking ability.

[Sasan]

Hi! Im a fun of the deck. This is my list with some explanations:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Snare
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

Misdirection: I know 3 FoWs are ugly but I like how Misdi protect us against super cheap removal like Bolt, Decay and StP, a well timed Misdi can change the game. Its also good vs Tourach and A.Vision.

LftL Maindeck: I seriously think that LftL is broken in this deck. Its synergyc with Wasteland, Goyf, DRS, Goose, Fetchs, even Brainstorm and Ponder, we have DRS so we can cast it more often than RUG and we always side in it against tempo and midrange decks anyway. Having it in G1 imho is pretty strong.

2 Dread of Night: I hate D&T and Maverick. I always want to have one in play every game so 2ofs is necessary.

What I want to try now is -1 Volcanic Island +1 Scalding Tarn. I think that we don't really need the third red source because we never side in both Pyroblast and Fire Covenant. When I have Taiga and Underground Sea in play I always fetch for Tropical, actually for me Volcanic is the worst land and Im never happy when I see two of them. I can't even think of a situation where I need two red source at the same time in play. 8 fetchs give us a little more chance to have both Taiga and Sea in play as fast as possible and the extra shuffle effect in a deck with 8 cantrip is always good.

My 2 cents.


Thanks for your input. It is a list that has some tweaks compared to my list so let us discuss them.

I would strongly advise you to play 2 Flusterstorms and only 2 Pierces in the SB. Flusterstorms are stronger versus combo as Pierce. We need to have a good matchup versus combo even after they board their hate.

Otherwise: Good sideboard. I envy you that you have the space for the second Dread but this is achieved by

... adding Loam to the main deck. I agree that Loam gets sided in so many times in the current meta. It is certainly a card that can win some matchups on its own. It also stabilizes our sometimes greedy mana base. But you achieve that interesting inclusion of Loam to the MD by cutting a Snare. That cannot be right. Snares are super good these days and hit nearly every key spell. We need three.

If you play in a midrange meta, Snares are the last things to cut. Normally you can cut one Force and add it to the sideboard in a meta like this one. As you only play 3 Forces Misdirection should get the axe. It is nice but too situational. As a one off it is never there when you need it. RUG Delver players opted for diverts after the printing of decay but they soon abandoned that idea due to the limited success.

[Jax-]

I did -1 Misdi +1 Snare. Now I have 4 Daze 3 FoW 3 Snare MD, in the sideboard I did -1 Pierce +1 Flusterstorm.
Im keeping LftL MD. With the current meta I like to have a little more strong matchup vs tempo and midrange in G1.
I really want to MD the 4th FoW but I don't have any slot.
My mana base right now is: 8 fetches 2 Seas 2 Tropicals 1 Volcanic 1 Taiga. Its feeling good.

The deck feel strong in general. Its really powerful and I feel confident in any matchup. The sideboard is IMHO the best set of cards I ever seen, with a lot of 2x.

[Griselpuff]

This deck is 7-0 right now, gonna make Top 8 of SCG Milwaukee. Piloted by Ed Leung

[Sasan]

Yes! He made top 5 with a list that is 74/75 the same as the one in the primer. He played with my old list where I played Clique in the SB instead of Dread/Compost.

Here is his list:


http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59863


Congrats to Edman :-) Perhaps he can write a tournament report. Is he member here in the forums?

[mog]

Thanks Sasan! This is Edman, I just registered ; )

I've been away from the game for about four years and I just started playing again this spring with some prodding (and cards!) from a good friend. I was active in the Vintage scene from about 2003 through 2009 but I've never really played much Legacy so this was an excellent result for me. I've been testing with your version of BURG tempo (great deck!) for several weeks in preparation for SCG Milwaukee and it definitely paid off. I ran Vendilion Clique over Dread of Night or Compost because the hate cards seemed excessive to me. I felt that Vendilion Clique's versatility was more relevant than the dedicated hate since Fire Covenant is already so strong against Maverick and Death and Taxes. Though I used your sideboarding plan as a guide (Stifle out against aggro, removal/creatures out for combo, and Daze out for slow combo/control) I ended up running my sideboarding based mostly on instinct throughout the day.

I did not take any notes or life totals during the tournament (MTG Familiar FTW!!!) so any tournament report would be from memory and generally lacking in detail but I did play against almost the entire Legacy metagame over the course of the Saturday Trial and the Sunday Main Event. My only match loss over 11 rounds of play was to Dredge in the top eight of the main event. Frankly, one piece of dedicated grave hate and three Deathrite Shaman are not enough to beat that deck with any consistency. I decided to make that concession before the tournament and I paid for it. Such is life.

There is quite a lot of play to the deck and there were several absolutely critical decisions (not Stifling fetchlands, not using a fetchland to pump Mongoose, etc.) that won me games throughout Saturday and Sunday. I think that I played very well throughout and that I was rewarded by the deck. Since I don't own cards, I don't know how much Legacy I'll play in the future (I do get an invite to the SCG Invitational...) but I think I will stick with this deck for the near future. Spell Snare is incredible, fooling the opponent on your color and card combos is incredible, Deathrite Shaman is incredible, Abrupt Decay is incredible, etc.

Big thank you to the Germans for developing such a powerful and fun deck!

[TheKingslayer]

Nice list, it is not so different from the stock list, especially in the main deck.

The UWR Delver matchup is totally winnable. It is a matchup where Snare shines - perhaps you want to play three main deck just like me ;-).

For all of you having probls in this matchup I want to introduce you a new secret tech:

Troll Ascetic.


it is the little brother of Thrun. The latter is better but not castable. Troll Ascetic gets the job done, too. It is Mongoose 5 without relying on the graveyard, it can block and kill Geist and regenerate - it is the creature that gives UWR massive headaches besides Mongoose. Troll Ascetic is also good versus all control decks and a resolved Troll against Deathblade
means that they cannot win anymore - a resolved batterskull will end in a draw due to the chump blocking ability.

I like the idea of running baby Thrun. Are you proposing running one or two? The difficulty is in choosing something to side out, I suppose.

[Griselpuff]

Hey mog,

Could you please say what decks you played and your record against them?

Thanks!!

[Sasan]

I like the idea of running baby Thrun. Are you proposing running one or two? The difficulty is in choosing something to side out, I suppose.

A one off in the usual flex slot of Clique/Dread/Compost in the SB.

[mog]

Hey,

You can check against the standings to confirm my game records, but this is what I remember:

Saturday Trial
Round 1: 2-0 against RUG Delver. He played well but waited too long with a Submerge on my Tarmogoyf (he wanted me to fetch/pump Mongoose and Submerge in response).
Round 2: 2-1 against Merfolk. Tidebinder blows me out game one but I won games two and three with creatures and counters.
Round 3: 2-1 against Omnishow. He killed me with Emrakul game one but put me on BUG and boarded in Leyline against me. His draws weren't great games two and three.
Round 4: ID against Big Red. I beat him in the fun games 2-1. Kept a bad hand game one (didn't know what he was playing) but get him with counters and Ancient Grudge games two and three.

Sunday Main Event
Round 1: 2-0 against Jund. He walks into Stifle four times. Too many habits from playing Modern.
Round 2: 2-1 against Grixis Delver. I got a game loss on deck registration error. He plays double Force of Will to protect Bob and kill Delver and I get there with Deathrite and Tarmogoyf.
Round 3: 2-1 against Jund. He beat me game one with four Tarmogoyf. We each had two active Deathrite in game two but mine come out on top. Game three had a lot of Wastelands on both sides. At the end, he has Deathrite, Bob, and Tarmogoyf but I ramp to five mana and hardcast Submerge on Bob two times to lock his draw. His only mana were Deathrite and a Wasteland.
Round 4: 2-1 against Sneak Show. He kills me with Emrakul game one but he has slow hands games two and three. Game three he had answers to my Delver but they are red and he only has blue. I think a greedy fetch for red early in the game would have beat me.
Round 5: 2-0 against Death and Taxes. Game one is close since he has Spellskite, Thalia, and active Mangara with Karakas. I flood the board with creatures and just attack through. Game 2 had lots of Mom but I again just flood the board and attack through. Flying is amazing.
Round 6: 2-0 against Shardless BUG. I beat him game one with Deathrite, Mongoose, Wasteland, and Stifle. Game two I had three Wastelands and he had two Wastelands so we stare at each other for a while and discard cards. I draw out of it faster and get Delver on the table and some Stifles on his fetches, Spell Snares on his guys, etc. He really did not like Spell Snare after trying so hard to play around Daze.
Round 7: 2-0 against Patriot Delver. This is recorded at SCG. Game one I just have all the cards. Game two, I sandbagged a Stifle to use with Force on his Geist and Cliqued a Batterskull. That feels so good.
Round 8: ID against Reanimator.
Round 9: ID against Pod Fit.
Quarterfinal: 0-2 against Dredge. I counter his first two plays, Wasteland him, and get Deathrite active, but he draws Careful Study into Breakthrough and chain dredges three Stinkweed and he hits a Narcomoeba and three Bridge. He gives me an out when he Flayers my Deathrite exiling all his Bridges. Of course, he hits his last Bridge on the next draw. Game 2 I Waste him twice and counter his play but he has more lands and more plays.

Except for Dredge, I had a great tournament. It is a terrible feeling to lose to a bad solitaire player.

[Sasan]

Thanks Sasan! This is Edman, I just registered ; )

I've been away from the game for about four years and I just started playing again this spring with some prodding (and cards!) from a good friend. I was active in the Vintage scene from about 2003 through 2009 but I've never really played much Legacy so this was an excellent result for me. I've been testing with your version of BURG tempo (great deck!) for several weeks in preparation for SCG Milwaukee and it definitely paid off. I ran Vendilion Clique over Dread of Night or Compost because the hate cards seemed excessive to me. I felt that Vendilion Clique's versatility was more relevant than the dedicated hate since Fire Covenant is already so strong against Maverick and Death and Taxes. Though I used your sideboarding plan as a guide (Stifle out against aggro, removal/creatures out for combo, and Daze out for slow combo/control) I ended up running my sideboarding based mostly on instinct throughout the day.

I did not take any notes or life totals during the tournament (MTG Familiar FTW!!!) so any tournament report would be from memory and generally lacking in detail but I did play against almost the entire Legacy metagame over the course of the Saturday Trial and the Sunday Main Event. My only match loss over 11 rounds of play was to Dredge in the top eight of the main event. Frankly, one piece of dedicated grave hate and three Deathrite Shaman are not enough to beat that deck with any consistency. I decided to make that concession before the tournament and I paid for it. Such is life.

There is quite a lot of play to the deck and there were several absolutely critical decisions (not Stifling fetchlands, not using a fetchland to pump Mongoose, etc.) that won me games throughout Saturday and Sunday. I think that I played very well throughout and that I was rewarded by the deck. Since I don't own cards, I don't know how much Legacy I'll play in the future (I do get an invite to the SCG Invitational...) but I think I will stick with this deck for the near future. Spell Snare is incredible, fooling the opponent on your color and card combos is incredible, Deathrite Shaman is incredible, Abrupt Decay is incredible, etc.

Big thank you to the Germans for developing such a powerful and fun deck!


We are all honored that you registered and joined the discussion here :-) we now have two recent impressive SCG finishes with the deck :-) Really good job :-)

Thanks Edman for giving the primer such a good review :-P

And concerning my sideboard guides: They are meant as a starting point. But you should adapt them always to the play style and the deck list of the opponent. If the opponent is not experienced I keep some Dazes on the Draw for example as he will most likely run to a Daze in the game. So Edman was right to alter the guides for the real matches :-)

[Sasan]

Hey,

You can check against the standings to confirm my game records, but this is what I remember:

Saturday Trial
Round 1: 2-0 against RUG Delver. He played well but waited too long with a Submerge on my Tarmogoyf (he wanted me to fetch/pump Mongoose and Submerge in response).
Round 2: 2-1 against Merfolk. Tidebinder blows me out game one but I won games two and three with creatures and counters.
Round 3: 2-1 against Omnishow. He killed me with Emrakul game one but put me on BUG and boarded in Leyline against me. His draws weren't great games two and three.
Round 4: ID against Big Red. I beat him in the fun games 2-1. Kept a bad hand game one (didn't know what he was playing) but get him with counters and Ancient Grudge games two and three.

Sunday Main Event
Round 1: 2-0 against Jund. He walks into Stifle four times. Too many habits from playing modern.
Round 2: 2-1 against Grixis Delver. I got a game loss on deck registration error. He plays double Force of Will to protect Bob and kill Delver and I get there with Deathrite and Tarmogoyf.
Round 3: 2-1 against Jund. He beat me game one with four Tarmogoyf. We each had two active Deathrite in game two but mine come out on top. Game three had a lot of Wastelands on both sides. At the end, he has Deathrite, Bob, and Tarmogoyf but I ramp to five mana and Hardcastle Submerge on Bob two times to lock his draw. His only mana were Deathrite and a Wasteland.
Round 4: 2-1 against Sneak Show. He kills me with Emrakul game one but he has slow hands games two and three. Game three he had answers to my Delver but they are red and he only has blue. I think a greedy fetch for red early in the game would have beat me.
Round 5: 2-0 against Death and Taxes. Game one is close since he has Spellskite, Thalia, and active Mangara with Karakas. I flood the board with creatures and just attack through. Game 2 had lots of Mom but I again just flood the board and attack through. Flying is amazing.
Round 6: 2-0 against Shardless BUG. I beat him game one with Deathrite, Mongoose, Wasteland, and Stifle. Game two I had three Wastelands and he had two Wastelands so we stare at each other for a while and discard cards. I draw out of it faster and get Delver on the table and some Stifles on his fetches, Spell Snares on his guys, etc. He really did not like Spell Snare after trying so hard to play around Daze.
Round 7: 2-0 against Patriot Delver. This is recorded at SCG. Game one I just have all the cards. Game two, I sandbagged a Stifle to use with Force on his Geist and Cliqued a Batterskull. That feels so good.
Round 8: ID against Reanimator.
Round 9: ID against Pod Fit.
Quarterfinal: 0-2 against Dredge. I counter his first two plays, Wasteland him, and get Deathrite active, but he draws Careful Study into Breakthrough and chain dredges three Stinkweed and he hits a Narcomoeba and three Bridge. He gives me an out when he Flayers my Deathrite exiting all his Bridges. Of course, he hits his last Bridge on the next draw. Game 2 I Waste him twice and counter his play but he has more lands and more plays.

Except for Dredge, I had a great tournament. It is a terrible feeling to lose to a bad solitaire player.

Super awesome report. Good deck, good plays and good guy ;)

[gluedstamps]

First of all: great primer Sasan! Really like this thread overall due to all good replays and answers!

Sleeved up bUrg (list in the primer) yesterday. The deck certainly lived up to my expectations being both fun and challenging! Overall I felt rather pleased with my decisions and the mistakes that I noticed was easy to spot (I've played a lot of RUG previously).

Played a few games vs Deathblade and UG Infect (approximately 10 each, without sb) afterwards. Viewed both match ups as something like 50/50, but guess it might depend on my inexperience with the deck.

I'll play the deck on a small tournament this upcoming Monday and would really appreciate sb suggestions. The decks that are likely to turn up:
2 ANT
1 TES
1 Sneak & Show
1 OmniTell
1 Reanimator
1 TinFins
1 Dredge
2 Pox
1 RUG Delver
1 UW Blade
1 Deathblade
2 Patriot
1 UG Infect
2 Jund (w/ Punishing Fire)
2 Elves
2 Enchantress (one "classic”, one UG)
2 Maveric (one GW, one w/ Punishing Fire)
1 D&T

Thanks in advance!

[Jax-]

Hey Edman! Congrats! Thank you for the report.

Nice to see that you win vs RUG, Patriot and Grixis! Tempo mirror is all about player skill imho. But bUrg have something more than those decks :P

I read that you had some problems vs S&T decks, maybe in a combo heavy field would be nice to have 3 pierce MD or to do a split 2/1.

Dredge is not a good matchup, but from my experience the game change drammaticaly if we are on the play and start with DRS. DRS and counter or DRS and wasteland on turn 2 are gamebreaking. We also have stifle for narcomoeba's trigger. Snares are bad here.

My 2 cents

[Sasan]

First of all: great primer Sasan! Really like this thread overall due to all good replays and answers!

Sleeved up bUrg (list in the primer) yesterday. The deck certainly lived up to my expectations being both fun and challenging! Overall I felt rather pleased with my decisions and the mistakes that I noticed was easy to spot (I've played a lot of RUG previously).

Played a few games vs Deathblade and UG Infect (approximately 10 each, without sb) afterwards. Viewed both match ups as something like 50/50, but guess it might depend on my inexperience with the deck.

I'll play the deck on a small tournament this upcoming Monday and would really appreciate sb suggestions. The decks that are likely to turn up:
2 ANT
1 TES
1 Sneak & Show
1 OmniTell
1 Reanimator
1 TinFins
1 Dredge
2 Pox
1 RUG Delver
1 UW Blade
1 Deathblade
2 Patriot
1 UG Infect
2 Jund (w/ Punishing Fire)
2 Elves
2 Enchantress (one "classic”, one UG)
2 Maveric (one GW, one w/ Punishing Fire)
1 D&T

Thanks in advance!

Thanks a lot :)

Ok with this specific meta, we can brew a good sb.

It seems that it is very combo orientated. I mean nearly 40 % of the decks are combo decks.

With that in mind we need 5 pieces of counter magic. I would suggest 3 Flusterstorms, 2 Pyroblasts.

Ok You have two Pox decks and a dredge player there. Really awful matchups. I do not want you to lose these ones. So we need 2 Grafdiggers Cages (versus Dredge) and 2 Composts (versus Pox and Dredge). The latter is a complete blowout.

With that much midrange decks we certainly need 1 Fire Covenant and one Golgari Charm. The latter is a surprise tech for your meta. Versus Elves it is complete nuts. Versus DNT/Maverick it can kill Mother and is just like a one-time dread of night. Versus enchantress it kills Argothian Enchantress. Do not use the enchantment kill ability in that matchup if you have the chance to kill that crucial creature ;-) Golgari Charm works well versus Empty the Warrens, too. The removal package is rounded up with 2 Submerges. 3 is better but 2 will get the job done in that meta, too.


1 Life from the Loam is granted as it protects our mana bases and punishes the greedy mana bases of nearly all fair decks in your meta.
I am surprised that Blade decks are not so much played in your area, but with two main deck decays, 3 Snares and 1 Grudge we can seal the deal.

Versus the tempo mirror only experience matters.

To sum it up we have this sideboard:

2 x Pyroblast
3 x Flusterstorm
2 x Cage
2 x Compost
1 x Grudge
1 x Fire Covenant
1 x Golgari Charm
1 x Loam
2x Submerge.

[Sasan]

Hey Edman! Congrats! Thank you for the report.

Nice to see that you win vs RUG, Patriot and Grixis! Tempo mirror is all about player skill imho. But bUrg have something more than those decks :P

I read that you had some problems vs S&T decks, maybe in a combo heavy field would be nice to have 3 pierce MD or to do a split 2/1.

Dredge is not a good matchup, but from my experience the game change drammaticaly if we are on the play and start with DRS. DRS and counter or DRS and wasteland on turn 2 are gamebreaking. We also have stifle for narcomoeba's trigger. Snares are bad here.

My 2 cents

I fully agree. I am glad that Dredge is nearly a dead deck. We have more grave hate than RUG Delver ever has seen. So we have a bit of a fighting chance versus Dredge. Versus Reanimator our counter magic suite is enough to win on a regular base.

In a very combo heavy meta, I would change the list dramatically. I will post such a list later.

[Sasan]

I updated the primer with two playable sideboard cards:

-Golgari Charm: It is a one-time Dread of Night versus Death and Taxes/Maverick, can kill Argothian Enchantress or all Empty the Warren tokens, save our creatures from Decay. It is a blowout versus Elves. Certainly a card to think about in a creature heavy meta.

-Troll Ascetic: The little brother of Thrun is castable in this deck whereas the latter has too high mana requirements. Troll Ascetic is an all star versus control decks and midrange decks that have a heavy removal suite (Punishing Fire, Decay). The regeneration ability makes him awesome versus Death Blade: Once Troll Ascetic hits the board Death Blade cannot win anymore, the batterskull can be chump blocked forever. The game will most likely end in a draw then.

[gluedstamps]

Thanks for the suggestions and your reasoning behind. It's really appreciated! I'll see something will be changed but spontaniously I'll see something will be changed but spontaneously that will be the sb. What's the reason to play Pyroblast over REB? Guess it could help reaching threshold but giving the Sneak & Show player the opportunity to Misdirect it doesn't seem worth it. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but got a Hymn misdirected the previous tournament, when I played boring no-brainer Jund (went 4-0 and won). Actually played Fire Covenant in the sb and boarded it in vs Reanimator and won a game due to it :smile:

[SirTylerGalt]

Thanks for the suggestions and your reasoning behind. It's really appreciated! I'll see something will be changed but spontaniously I'll see something will be changed but spontaneously that will be the sb. What's the reason to play Pyroblast over REB? Guess it could help reaching threshold but giving the Sneak & Show player the opportunity to Misdirect it doesn't seem worth it. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but got a Hymn misdirected the previous tournament, when I played boring no-brainer Jund (went 4-0 and won). Actually played Fire Covenant in the sb and boarded it in vs Reanimator and won a game due to it :smile:

When used as a counterspell, REB can also be misdirected. They just change its target to the Misdirection that's still on the stack. Apart from a sideboarded Jace, I don't see when you would play a REB targeting a permanent against Sneak&Show.

Pyroblast can let you get faster threshold, and can kill a Phantasmal Image that's copying a non-blue creature.

I usually play 2 Pyroblast. If I need 3, I go with a split of 2 Pyroblast and 1 REB, to mitigate Cabal Therapy / Surgical Extraction / Meddling Mage effects.

[Sasan]

Pyroblast is especially good in Shaman decks as it can be used for the ping ability of the Shaman without needing to target a blue permanent. Otherwise I fully agree with SirTylerGalt. If someone does not have any Pyroblasts and has no time to get some before a tournament, the world will not crash if REBs are played.

[sherko7]

Grats to mog for the great finish! I recently just finished building the deck and will probably be playing the original list (the one with Goyfs instead of YPs as I previously endorsed) tomorrow at an LGS in preparation for one of the bigger tournies in our country 2 weeks from now. I'm glad to see mog had managed to beat through some of the deck's harder matchups (DnT, BUG). I am just plain terrible at the DnT matchup! Maverick is also a pain, even with the boarding plan proposed in the primer.

Not sure if any of you noticed the other 4 color Delver list in the top 16 of SCG, the one running white instead of red. I know its different, but what do you think about that as compared to bUrg? :tongue:

[Star|Scream]

I had a question about the manabase. I have all the duals and 9 blue fetches, but only 3 misty and 1 tarn. In this instance would I be better off running an additional dual or fetch instead of the Taiga?

[Sasan]

Grats to mog for the great finish! I recently just finished building the deck and will probably be playing the original list (the one with Goyfs instead of YPs as I previously endorsed) tomorrow at an LGS in preparation for one of the bigger tournies in our country 2 weeks from now. I'm glad to see mog had managed to beat through some of the deck's harder matchups (DnT, BUG). I am just plain terrible at the DnT matchup! Maverick is also a pain, even with the boarding plan proposed in the primer.

Not sure if any of you noticed the other 4 color Delver list in the top 16 of SCG, the one running white instead of red. I know its different, but what do you think about that as compared to bUrg? :tongue:


You mean UWR Delver/Patriot? It is only 3 coloured but I can honestly say that bUrg is superior as playing Swords to Plowshares instead of Lightning Bolts is a contradiction of the nature of a tempo deck. Swords gives the opponent more time due to the life gain. You have less reach without Bolts. The mana curve is higher (that is why they play more lands). All these things let me come to the conclusion that Patriot is not as good as bUrg from the perspective of pure tempo and efficency. It is lacking the awesome Shaman, too. Without Decays the removal suite is not flexible enough.


But as Patriot as had good finishs recently, it is a viable tempo deck. But not the best one in my opinion.

[Sasan]

I had a question about the manabase. I have all the duals and 9 blue fetches, but only 3 misty and 1 tarn. In this instance would I be better off running an additional dual or fetch instead of the Taiga?

Well in this case running Taiga does not make any sense as you do not have enough fetches that can get you Taiga.

You can try this mana base configuration:
3 x Tropical Island
2 x Volcanic Island
2 x Underground Sea
7 x Blue Fetches
(4 x Wasteland = Not mana, only a spell)

This configuration was the first one Carsten Linden had when he invented the deck and before we began our testings. It felt good and solid. But as we missed the oppurtunity to cast everything with only 2 lands in play, the Taiga idea was born (kudos to Florian Koch for that idea). So try to get your playset Mistys and 3 Tarns and play with the above configuration until then :).

[Star|Scream]

Identity Nemesis {1}{U}{U}

Creature - Merfolk Rogue

As Identity Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.

Identity Nemesis has protection from that player. (This creature cannot be blocked, targeted, damaged or enchanted by a source controlled by that player.)



Thoughts? I had a hard time against the folk last night. I guess Golgari Charm kills it as long as it's not pumped by a lord.

[Sasan]

Identity Nemesis {1}{U}{U}

Creature - Merfolk Rogue

As Identity Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.

Identity Nemesis has protection from that player. (This creature cannot be blocked, targeted, damaged or enchanted by a source controlled by that player.)



Thoughts? I had a hard time against the folk last night. I guess Golgari Charm kills it as long as it's not pumped by a lord.

You are right that Golgari Charm is the only option to kill this creature. Forcing or Dazing this beast is also highly advised. Let us see how this creature will shake up the format. Really bad desigend card by Wizards. C13 can shake things up so that Merfolk becomes a deck again.

But don't panic: We can replace our Goyfs and perhaps one Nimble Mongoose with that creature, too. So yeah we can benefit from that. Let us see what happens when C13 is released.

[Star|Scream]

You are right that Golgari Charm is the only option to kill this creature. Stifling the comes to play trigger is also an option. Forcing or Dazing is also highly advised. Let us see how this creature will shake up the format. Really bad desigend card by Wizards. C13 can shake things up so that Merfolk becomes a deck again.

Isn't the ability a replacement effect, and not triggered?

[Sasan]

You are right. The spoiler is not out in English so we must see how it translates on the real card but if it begins with "as" instead of "when" you cannot stifle it.

[gluedstamps]

SirTylerGalt and Sasan: Good points, didn't think about the things mentioned. Thanks!

[Sasan]

SirTylerGalt and Sasan: Good points, didn't think about the things mentioned. Thanks!

You are welcome.

[mog]

This card, Identity Nemisis, seems like a big deal. I am more of a card player than a deck builder or a metagamer but this seems to me like something worth investigating.

Thank you,

Edman

[Jax-]

Actually I will replace 2 goyfs istantly with this new guy. It still have the ability to chumpblock vs tribal, killing most of the things in the format also, but its evasive giving, probably, a six turn clock, its hard to kill like mongoose but its not graveyard dependent, so no relic, surgical ecc... I don't think other decks will ever side again grave hate vs us just for 3 DRS and 3/4 mongoose. Its blue, we can pitch it to force.

Turn 1: Fetch to U sea, Deathrite Shaman
Turn 2: Fetch to Taiga, Identity Nemesis

We can put in the 4th DRS for an increased chance to do this start. Tapping out on turn 2 can be a problem vs combo, but RUG delver also taps out on turn 2 most of the time playing goyf and goyf rarely is bigger than 3/4 vs combo (istant, sorcery, land).

Except Merfolk, other existing decks will have a hard time casting this guy vs us because 3cc is a lot. If this card will be played a lot we can maybe replace Submerge with Golgari Charm or E.Explosives, eventually.

My 2 cents

[Sasan]

Actually I will replace 2 goyfs istantly with this new guy. It still have the ability to chumpblock vs tribal, killing most of the things in the format also, but its evasive giving, probably, a six turn clock, its hard to kill like mongoose but its not graveyard dependent, so no relic, surgical ecc... I don't think other decks will ever side again grave hate vs us just for 3 DRS and 3/4 mongoose. Its blue, we can pitch it to force.

Turn 1: Fetch to U sea, Deathrite Shaman
Turn 2: Fetch to Taiga, Identity Nemesis

We can put in the 4th DRS for an increased chance to do this start. Tapping out on turn 2 can be a problem vs combo, but RUG delver also taps out on turn 2 most of the time playing goyf and goyf rarely is bigger than 3/4 vs combo (istant, sorcery, land).

Except Merfolk, other existing decks will have a hard time casting this guy vs us because 3cc is a lot. If this card will be played a lot we can maybe replace Submerge with Golgari Charm or E.Explosives, eventually.

My 2 cents

If we are going to play that card ourselves, we do not want Golgari Charm or EE in our SBs. Stick with more REBs in the SB. They are excellent verus Merfolk and can counter that new nasty creature.

Psst...do not tell it to anyone but we are the only good tempo deck that can cast the new bomb creature at a reliable base without making our mana base or mana curve worse. I have tested the card all night with proxies and will come up with a new bUrg deck list after the testings have finished. I plan to make a decklist for you that you can use at BOM Paris. Therefore I must predict the metagame and the right configuration of the deck. As I won't attend the event due to private reasons I hope you will do well there with my new list..hold on a couple of days until "bUrg 2.0" is there ;-)

[Pdingo]

Nah nah sasan i think uwr delver can use nemesis really good to. Except with the equipments.;)

[Sasan]

Nah nah sasan i think uwr delver can use nemesis really good to. Except with the equipments.;)

Ok that is right although I do not call UWR Delver a (good) "tempo" deck as it has so much anti synergy concerning the tempo plan. But it has good results. With Shaman we can still cast every spell with only two lands in play. UWR has a really high mana curve that leads to a land count up to 20 in some builds.

[Pdingo]

Yes that's a little bit true. But those player who go to 20 lands they have no idea about tempo..

[Sasan]

To be honest those decks are candidates to play Identity Nemesis:

- Death Blade
- Merfolk
- UWR Delver

...and perhaps...

- We.



The above list needs also a little more insight. Not all these decks will play that card as a playset. Some of them might choose not play it at all. Think about it:

- Death Blade has some problems in the combo MU and it remains to be seen if they will ever replace their Cliques and Snapcaster Mages with that creature and make their combo MU even worse. A resolved Batterskull is nearly always the win so I think Death Blade will not play that card to a high amount. Chances that they will play Identity Nemesis: below 50 %
- UWR lacks a good finisher, therefore they need the clock of the angel token of Geist. It remains to be seen if they will abandon Geist and play that guy. On the other hand it has evasion. It is a 50-50 chance that UWR will play that guy.
- Merfolk: Well that is a no-brainer. Chances that they play that guy: 90 %.

- bUrg: ...... we will see.....hold on ;-)

[Jax-]

Identity Nemesis is way better than Geist. Geist is good only with a clear board, while Identity is always good, if you cast Geist you just have a 2/2 hexproof that MAYBE will strike for six damage the next turn, if you cast Identity you have a 3/1 protection from everything that can block Goyf, Goose, Geist, Batterskull, everything without flying or protection from blue and can still swing for three the next turn unblocked.

Oh and Lord of Atlantis pump it too.

[Sasan]

True points, I can only see that UWR players have some problems with Geist due to the cc3 mana costs but say that they need that beatstick as a end game bomb. So we will see but I said that is probable that they will play it. Let us see how the discussion in their thread will continue. Personally I will let the UWR experts discuss that with themselves and try to concentrate how/if the card can improve bUrg :-P

And we still need the official English translation of Identity Nemesis. If it has a come to play trigger (wording: when) and not a replacement effect (wording: as) the card is not that good.

[Jax-]

Maverick and D&T match ups are drastically improved with Identity. It kill every creatures they have while giving them a six turn clock (or less, with bolts). It can block and kill Crusader so they must have a MoR protecting from blue for attack (but we have bolts, and decay for MoR).

Vs D&T our stifles become even more powerful because we just need to counter their wasteland and reach 3 lands in play for cast Identity and win.
We also have Delvers, DRSs and Bolts, a lot of evasive damage.
Tarmogoyf can be hit by a StP or blocked with MoR or Crusader or removed with Fiend Hunter.

We can remove Submerges and Dread of Night from our sideboard so we have more slots vs control and combo.
I think we should play Null Rod. It stops E.E. , Top, LED, Petal, Equipments.

[Sasan]

I agree that Dread of Night and Compost are not needed anymore IF we can include Nemesis in our decks. But Submerge? The card is a staple even with Nemesis as it clears the board, gives the opponent a dead draw step and lets them invest mana - sometimes you can activate Submerge before the opponent's fetch and remove the creature. I think that Submerge will not get the axe. It serves as a protection suite for Nemesis in grindier (green) matchups, too.

[Final Fortune]

Maverick and D&T match ups are drastically improved with Identity. It kill every creatures they have while giving them a six turn clock (or less, with bolts). It can block and kill Crusader so they must have a MoR protecting from blue for attack (but we have bolts, and decay for MoR).

Vs D&T our stifles become even more powerful because we just need to counter their wasteland and reach 3 lands in play for cast Identity and win.
We also have Delvers, DRSs and Bolts, a lot of evasive damage.
Tarmogoyf can be hit by a StP or blocked with MoR or Crusader or removed with Fiend Hunter.

We can remove Submerges and Dread of Night from our sideboard so we have more slots vs control and combo.
I think we should play Null Rod. It stops E.E. , Top, LED, Petal, Equipments.

I agree, this card is the 2nd comming of Tarmogoyf, being an unblockable, indestructable equipment bearer for 3 that can value block vs all non-Tarmogoyf creatures in the format is pretty absurd. Pretty sure it's safe to say that Geist of Saint Traft just hit the rubbish bin and "awkward" /u decks like U/W/R and U/B/R are more viable.

[Sasan]

I agree, this card is the 2nd comming of Tarmogoyf, being an unblockable, indestructable equipment bearer for 3 that can value block vs all non-Tarmogoyf creatures in the format is pretty absurd. Pretty sure it's safe to say that Geist of Saint Traft just hit the rubbish bin and "awkward" /u decks like U/W/R and U/B/R are more viable.

This. But let us do some more testings ;-) And I hope bUrg is not in your list of awkward /u decks.

[Cenarius]

Who, from this thread, played a tournament with bUrg Tempo and what are its results?

[Sasan]

We had two Top 16s during the SCG open and I had a Top 8 on a German tournament (45 players) in recent times. Other than that I cannot remember other good placements. But do not think that the deck is underperforming, it is a (still) unknown deck that not that many players play. Even on TCDecks bUrg has not its own category.

[Rosy]

Im not new to tempo decks strategy as I played RUG for a while but I had some difficulties with the manabase of this deck. I tested a standard bUrg list with 4 wastelands, 8 fetch, 2 tropicals, 2 seas, 1 volcanic, 1 taiga and 3 shamans. When I played against DnT (a deck with 4 wastelands and 4 ports) my manabase seemed too tragile. Is there any way to incorporate 4 shamans in the list? Is it possible to play 4 shamans and 4 nimble mongoose in the same list? Thanks.

[Sasan]

Im not new to tempo decks strategy as I played RUG for a while but I had some difficulties with the manabase of this deck. I tested a standard bUrg list with 4 wastelands, 8 fetch, 2 tropicals, 2 seas, 1 volcanic, 1 taiga and 3 shamans. When I played against DnT (a deck with 4 wastelands and 4 ports) my manabase seemed too tragile. Is there any way to incorporate 4 shamans in the list? Is it possible to play 4 shamans and 4 nimble mongoose in the same list? Thanks.

As a starter it is really hard to figure out when to fetch which land. It needs training. bUrg is a real complex deck. First of all, I would play with two Volcanics as having "real" duals and not only fetches is good for the matchups where Port/Waste can easily cut you off one colour (here red if you only play with Taiga/Volcanic).

The mana base of the deck can be challenge, but I encourage you to play with my blueprint list and keep trying.

Life from the Loam helps versus DnT to protect your mana base.

[sherko7]

You mean UWR Delver/Patriot? It is only 3 coloured but I can honestly say that bUrg is superior as playing Swords to Plowshares instead of Lightning Bolts is a contradiction of the nature of a tempo deck. Swords gives the opponent more time due to the life gain. You have less reach without Bolts. The mana curve is higher (that is why they play more lands). All these things let me come to the conclusion that Patriot is not as good as bUrg from the perspective of pure tempo and efficency. It is lacking the awesome Shaman, too. Without Decays the removal suite is not flexible enough.


But as Patriot as had good finishs recently, it is a viable tempo deck. But not the best one in my opinion.

No, I meant this bUwg (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59875)


We had two Top 16s during the SCG open and I had a Top 8 on a German tournament (45 players) in recent times. Other than that I cannot remember other good placements. But do not think that the deck is underperforming, it is a (still) unknown deck that not that many players play. Even on TCDecks bUrg has not its own category.

There was 1 1st placer recently here in the Philippines (60 something man tourney). He sported the 4 DRS 4 Goose 4 Delver creature suite.

[Pdingo]

I won 3 Tournaments in Switzerland with bUrg and once second place;)

[Sasan]

ah that is great :-)

[Rosy]

As a starter it is really hard to figure out when to fetch which land. It needs training. bUrg is a real complex deck. First of all, I would play with two Volcanics as having "real" duals and not only fetches is good for the matchups where Port/Waste can easily cut you off one colour (here red if you only play with Taiga/Volcanic).

The mana base of the deck can be challenge, but I encourage you to play with my blueprint list and keep trying.

Life from the Loam helps versus DnT to protect your mana base.

Thanks! I really enjoy playing the deck so I will keep trying.. Anyway fetch decisions are much harder then in RUG where you just decide wheather to cast creatures or fire. My mana problems started after sideboard were I had both abrupt decay and fire covenant. All games where my opponent had two wastelands were a disaster :)

[HammafistRoob]

Thanks! I really enjoy playing the deck so I will keep trying.. Anyway fetch decisions are much harder then in RUG where you just decide wheather to cast creatures or fire. My mana problems started after sideboard were I had both abrupt decay and fire covenant. All games where my opponent had two wastelands were a disaster :)

If you're up against a deck with a better manabase(more lands of less colors) that also packs Wastelands, Deathrite Shaman is key. I would also tend to try and save Stifles for their Waste activations instead of throwing it at the first Fetch I see if I'm not holding a Waste of my own.

[KobeBryan]

I hate this stupid deck. I always get tricked thinking its BUG, then it becomes RUG.

Its hard to sideboard against. I hope you guys die a miserable death to bloodmoon.

[TheKingslayer]

I hate this stupid deck. I always get tricked thinking its BUG, then it becomes RUG.

Its hard to sideboard against. I hope you guys die a miserable death to bloodmoon.

<3

[Sasan]

As I promised I am testing Identity Nemesis like crazy in bUrg and I have made many many tests. As I do not want to make premature suggestions I need more testing sessions - a good test run includes at least 50 matches versus the most relevant decks each. BOM Paris nears and I fear that I do not have time to complete my tests. That is why I need your help. Are there some volunteers, that can help me with the testings? I would send them the deck list and discuss which matchups have to be tested. But I sincerly ask you not to make the deck list public before we have completed our test runs. Deal? :) Then PM me or write in this thread ;-).

[sherko7]

As I promised I am testing Identity Nemesis like crazy in bUrg and I have made many many tests. As I do not want to make premature suggestions I need more testing sessions - a good test run includes at least 50 matches versus the most relevant decks each. BOM Paris nears and I fear that I do not have time to complete my tests. That is why I need your help. Are there some volunteers, that can help me with the testings? I would send them the deck list and discuss which matchups have to be tested. But I sincerly ask you not to make the deck list public before we have completed our test runs. Deal? :) Then PM me or write in this thread ;-).

I test almost nightly on Cockatrice with a friend. I've actually played a few games with Pdingo a few weeks back XD Anyway, I can help test against DnT and most of the relevant combo decks (except ANT) as my testing buddy is pretty good with those. Hit me up!

[Pdingo]

@ Sasan
how works the testing with Nemesis? What do you think? maybe instead of Tarmogoyf? I see him there.

@sherko
Yes a lot nice games:P
But have to Play ANT for the BOM instead of bUrg. Lucky that i have to 2 byes:))

@Kobe bryant

We don't die against a blood Moon.. Blood moon is a bad Card against tempo^^

[Sasan]

@Pdingo: I cannot say it now as the tests are not completed :-) but I have a clear vision that the deck list will get a revamp ;-)

@ Sherko and Pdingo: I will PM you the new list today and I have also some PMs. We can discuss things private and come up with a final list for all BOM players that want to win the tournament with bUrg.

[gluedstamps]

Played a small tournament yesterday, with 15 or 17 players. Ended up 3-1-1 (4-0 unless I'd ID last match, that I won when we played for fun) so 1-2 place.

Played the list posted in the primer minus 1 FoW and 1 Volcanic, plus 1 Reanimate and 1 fetch.

SB:
3 Pyroblast
1 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire Covenant
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 LftL

I’d a rather good knowledge about what decks that would show up based on the persons at the store, so made some changes to the sb Sasan was kind enough to suggest. Also I forgot some of the cards at home since I was in a hurry.

Game 1 vs RUG Delver: 2-1
Game 2 vs random crappy UB (he got bye first round): 2-0
Game 3 vs UB Tezzeret: 2-0
Game 4 vs UG Infect: 2-1

In retrospect I'm very pleased with the deck! Spontaneously there's nothing I’d change. Maybe the Reanimate isn't good enough in an unknown meta?

[Star|Scream]

Sasan: Pm'd

[Sasan]

Played a small tournament yesterday, with 15 or 17 players. Ended up 3-1-1 (4-0 unless I'd ID last match, that I won when we played for fun) so 1-2 place.

Played the list posted in the primer minus 1 FoW and 1 Volcanic, plus 1 Reanimate and 1 fetch.

SB:
3 Pyroblast
1 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire Covenant
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 LftL

I’d a rather good knowledge about what decks that would show up based on the persons at the store, so made some changes to the sb Sasan was kind enough to suggest. Also I forgot some of the cards at home since I was in a hurry.

Game 1 vs RUG Delver: 2-1
Game 2 vs random crappy UB (he got bye first round): 2-0
Game 3 vs UB Tezzeret: 2-0
Game 4 vs UG Infect: 2-1

In retrospect I'm very pleased with the deck! Spontaneously there's nothing I’d change. Maybe the Reanimate isn't good enough in an unknown meta?

Nice finish :) In an unknown meta the flexible FoW is always better than a Reanimate ;-)

[Sasan]

Sasan: Pm'd

I answered that and the other ones :D It was nearly an essay I sent to all of you ;-).

[sherko7]

Got back from testing against DnT, I won't leave a lot of details as I pm'd Sasan the bulk. Anyhow, Nemesis proved to be one of the best additions to bUrg VS DnT. It really helps my game plan against them of CONTROL first, then drop a finisher to win it for you. :tongue:

[mog]

Interesting. I always play against DnT like an aggro deck. I might be doing it wrong. Thanks.


Got back from testing against DnT, I won't leave a lot of details as I pm'd Sasan the bulk. Anyhow, Nemesis proved to be one of the best additions to bUrg VS DnT. It really helps my game plan against them of CONTROL first, then drop a finisher to win it for you. :tongue:

[Sasan]

Well you have to start in aggro mode versus DnT (Delver/Shaman) and then take the disruption/control route and swing after that when they are in topdeck mode with a Goyf. That is my approach to that matchup.

[sherko7]

I pretty much agree on Sasan's game plan. If you're on the play, definitely drop a T1 Delver. On the draw I'd almost always prefer to have Snare/Stifle up just in case they drop Thalia/SFM. The early pressure is useless anyway if they drop SFM. For me, its worth the tradeoff. Due to their strategy (swarm), sometimes Dazing is even more of a setback. My friend would sometimes bait a Daze with Revoker or even SFM if they have multiples in hand, just to drop the Thalia next turn, then Waste the next. That's a hard beating, and is more of a tempo loss for us than them.

It is also worth noting that DRS will almost always not affect their GY. The only card they run that you can use to shoot them is StP, and that StP will almost always be headed for DRS. :laugh:

[Tormod]

I've been playing various Delver builds and just started with 'BURG'

I played nearly the same MD as Sasan from page 1. I committed the cardinal sin and went to 14 creatures, dropping down to 2 spell snare to add a 3rd Tarmogoyf. Sure lowering the spell count to 28 was risky, but I wasn't disappointed at all.

I went 3-0 and drew my last match at my local Legacy night. I must say I am really impressed with this deck. I had some challenging match ups.

round 1 vs Goblins

game 1, I have early Delver, he has early Thalia. Bolt takes care of Thalia, wastelands slow him down Goyf and Goose block like champs.
game 2, i face turn 1 Lackey, i play fetch pass. Lackey swings, trigger. Ring leader comes into play. I fetch and stifle the Ring leader. Turn 2 I play Goyf. I ride turn 3 Delver to victory while my ground forces block goblins form attacking. I save stifle for all his card advantage triggers.

round 2 vs Miracles

game 1, i save my counter magic for his counter balances and slow roll my creatures making sure to always have threats. Abrupt decay makes this match so easy.
game 2, i die to helm rest in peace with my opponent dead on next turn.
game 3, (I mull to 5) see game 1.

round 3 vs Reanimator

game 1, turn 1 DRS ignites a counter battle. Shaman hits the table, opponent entombs elesh norn, i fight the exhume. I untap and shaman eats norn. Scoops.
game 2 (we both mull to 5) turn 1 DRS gets dazed, turn 2 graft diggers cage gets dazed (i kept a 1 lander), turn 3 shaman get pithing needled. I pierce a careful study and play goose and shaman #3 and keep swinging to victory while defending position.

round 4 split.
It was against UWR delver, having played both decks I think BURG has the better plan.



@Sasan: I can help you test. I have a pretty good little group of players that we test regularly with. We have some early testing of 'True Name Nemesis' and the results are good.

[Sasan]

Great Finish Unsummon. Always love to hear that tempo players switch to bUrg. I Hope you will now join the discussion in this thread. We are a small group, but the atmosphere is great :)

I pmed you concerning my list.

[personalbackfire]

I am going to take this to a GPT tomorrow since it will be the last time I can play it before the deck most likely changes if the new Merfolk guy is good. I put it down recently to try out ANT only to be disappointed...

Anyways, I'm thinking of a list that is a good bit different from original.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightening Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fire Covenant
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam

I am fully on the Gitaxian Probe band wagon. It allows you to play with perfect information which is critical in the early turns of the game (when to deploy threats, when to sit on stifle).

I currently also have a love for Spell Pierce, it always seems to be good. Moving a Force to the SB was just a concession to wanting to run a 3rd Spell Pierce main and not having enough room. I don't think you lose a lot by making that switch since you mostly want Force against combo decks, and Spell Pierce is good against combo as well. If I was expecting a lot of fast combo I would make the switch to have Force in the main again.

I want to try out Young Pyromancer, I haven't gotten to play with it in a Delver deck yet. The card seems like it should be good, I don't see a reason why it hasn't been more accepted in this deck, though I did read the discussion on it a few pages ago when someone suggested it over Goyf. I know it has found a home in Grixis Delver, but I don't so much like that deck because it has 8 two casting cost creatures, which seems like too much for a delver deck.

I'm not sure if 11 creatures is too little?

The reason I am making it a point to run Grim Lavamancer in the SB is because I fear that it is.

Let me know thoughts, concerns, suggestions.

Thanks!
Steve

[sherko7]

I am going to take this to a GPT tomorrow since it will be the last time I can play it before the deck most likely changes if the new Merfolk guy is good. I put it down recently to try out ANT only to be disappointed...

Anyways, I'm thinking of a list that is a good bit different from original.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightening Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fire Covenant
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam

I am fully on the Gitaxian Probe band wagon. It allows you to play with perfect information which is critical in the early turns of the game (when to deploy threats, when to sit on stifle).

I currently also have a love for Spell Pierce, it always seems to be good. Moving a Force to the SB was just a concession to wanting to run a 3rd Spell Pierce main and not having enough room. I don't think you lose a lot by making that switch since you mostly want Force against combo decks, and Spell Pierce is good against combo as well. If I was expecting a lot of fast combo I would make the switch to have Force in the main again.

I want to try out Young Pyromancer, I haven't gotten to play with it in a Delver deck yet. The card seems like it should be good, I don't see a reason why it hasn't been more accepted in this deck, though I did read the discussion on it a few pages ago when someone suggested it over Goyf. I know it has found a home in Grixis Delver, but I don't so much like that deck because it has 8 two casting cost creatures, which seems like too much for a delver deck.

I'm not sure if 11 creatures is too little?

The reason I am making it a point to run Grim Lavamancer in the SB is because I fear that it is.

Let me know thoughts, concerns, suggestions.

Thanks!
Steve

A couple of things I think about your list:

1) I tried the 3 Pyromancer path (3 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Goose, 3 Pyro). It was nice, and DRS made dropping it turn 2 with Pierce mana open very viable. Thing is, the deck really needs a finisher. Sure, Pyro can generate shitloads of tokens and turns your dead Dazes into free 1/1's while making your opponent's spells cost more. But sometimes, due to the reactive nature of our deck, Pyro doesn't really do much when your opponent already has an established board position. That's the main reason why I quit the Pyromancer route.

2) Dark Confidant is Pyro's best friend. That is why the Grixis deck works.

3) I like 2 Probes, 2 Pierce, 2 Snare :P But maybe you're better of with 3 Pierce since you play Pyro.

Just my 2 cents. :laugh:

[Sasan]

Hey Steve, my main suggestion is to play at least 3 Nimble Mongeese. It is the best creature in our deck in the current midrange meta :-) Other than that, I want to support what sherko7 said.

[personalbackfire]

Hey Steve, my main suggestion is to play at least 3 Nimble Mongeese. It is the best creature in our deck in the current midrange meta :-) Other than that, I want to support what sherko7 said.

Hey I took your advice and played Nimble Mongoose but ended up playing straight rug w/ pyromancer. I was very disaapointed with Pyromancer. Goyf would have been better in every situation. I imagine that is true with bUrg as well.

[Quasim0ff]

Hey I took your advice and played Nimble Mongoose but ended up playing straight rug w/ pyromancer. I was very disaapointed with Pyromancer. Goyf would have been better in every situation. I imagine that is true with bUrg as well.
Pyromancer shines with a steady flow of cards, most notably dark confidant/in a build that takes advantage of punishing fires.

Not a ***** style of list.

[personalbackfire]

Yea agreed, though I had seen some successful UR Delver lists (w/o punishing fire) that ran him so I figured I'd give him a try.

[Tormod]

I believe True Name Nemesis is going to be a big deal once he hits the game tables.

In anticipation of this, I've been looking at sideboard modifications to fight against this new threat.

Right now I've swapped a submerge for a diabolic edict and a dread of night for a golgari charm.

I like the edict because it has applications against emrakrul, geist, reanimator, mongoose.
Golgari charm's -1/-1 is effective against TNN, D&T, Elves AND it doesn't kill of our creatures; I gives the sb an answer for enchantments that Abrupt can't hit (Sneak attack, Omniscience); The regen is a decent combat trick and board wipes.

[sherko7]

I believe True Name Nemesis is going to be a big deal once he hits the game tables.

In anticipation of this, I've been looking at sideboard modifications to fight against this new threat.

Right now I've swapped a submerge for a diabolic edict and a dread of night for a golgari charm.

I like the edict because it has applications against emrakrul, geist, reanimator, mongoose.
Golgari charm's -1/-1 is effective against TNN, D&T, Elves AND it doesn't kill of our creatures; I gives the sb an answer for enchantments that Abrupt can't hit (Sneak attack, Omniscience); The regen is a decent combat trick and board wipes.

Interesting changes to the board. I've been thinking of Golgari Charm myself. The regen thing is good against Abrupt decks, but I can't justify boarding it in just for that since we can't use the other modes against most Abrupt Decay decks. I can only see it coming in against DnT and Elves in our meta. Sure, Elves pack Abrupt but I won't be wasting the Charm to protect a Delver against them.

I've been thinking of going down to 2 Submerge as well. Seems I have a few things to think about in the car. :laugh: Going to a big tourney in a few hours.

[Sasan]

Good luck mate :-)

[Megadeus]

It is kind of hilarious that Golgari Charm is an effective counter for its own efficient removal spell

[DarkJester]

It is kind of hilarious that Golgari Charm is an effective counter for its own efficient removal spell

What do you mean? The "Regenerate"-Part as counter for the "-1/-1"-Part? I think that does not work...

[sherko7]

Scrubbed at the tourney. :frown: 40-something people showed up.

R1 vs Junk Goodstuff
G1 I drew Fetch, Waste, Stifle, Stifle, Delver, Land, Daze. Needless to say, I wreaked havoc. Secured a win shortly after landing a Goose when he Decay'd my Delver. G2 and G3 I saw 5 LotV in total. I sided out FoWs and Dazes and never managed to find the Pierce when I needed them.

0-1-0

R2 vs Punishing Jund
G1 I got outclassed by LotV again. Goyfs won it for him after I threw my Decay on the LotV. G2 I managed to get him down to 5 or 4 after trading cards 1 for 1. He finally landed an LotV (again!) and sac'd my DRS. Next turn I dropped a Goose, he dropped a BBE and cascaded into another LotV, sac'd his other LotV to sac my Goose. I managed to Decay that one later on but shortly after he dropped a 3rd LotV. Damn that b*tch!

0-2-0

R3 vs RUG
I was already a bit on tilt. G1 saw us answering each other card for card. Bolts on Delvers, Wastes met Stifles and let to counter wars. After nearly exhausting our hands, we were both left with 3 lands. He managed to land a Goose after I FoW'd the first one and dropped me down to 8. He was at 17. I drew my own Goose and traded with him. We both went into draw-go for a few turns. I managed to draw FOUR LIGHTNING BOLTS. A few turns later he dropped Sylvan Library, I Snare'd, he FoW'd. He took an extra card with the Library and went down to 11. EoT Bolted him twice. My turn Bolt 2x again LOL. G2 he managed to Waste + Surgical my Scalding Tarn + Tropical Island. I kept a hand with double Scalding Tarn. I got screwed. I eventually drew into lands but he had Loam and it was GG. G3 was my turn to screw him. He Surgical'd my Volcs again but he kept a really greedy hand. I won off a Delver and double Waste.

1-2-0

R4 vs DnT

This was fairly easy. I won G1 with Delvers, Goyfs and tons of removal. G2 I lost to him clogging up the board with Fire Covenant nowhere in sight. G3 I won by clogging the board and removal again. He had Ghostly Prison which prolonged the match up, but 6/7 Goyf + enough mana to pay for double Ghostly Prison sealed the deal as he didn't have Crusader/MoM.

2-2-0

R5 vs Miracles

G1 my Goose took 6-7 turns to *****, was a really bad draw. Gave him enough time to stabilize despite not being able to cast Terminus (Stifle'd him twice). I got rid of 2 Counterbalance and 1 RiP (drew 3 Snares). Eventually he cast Elspeth to prolong the game. Then Jace a couple of turns later. He assembled top + balance and it was GG. G2 was practically the same. I drew Sulfuric Vortex and he was down to about 7 or 8 when he stabilized with back to back Elspeth into Jace with Countertop on the table.

2-3-0

R6 vs RUG

Played my friend who was also 2-3 with BUG Shardless. He said he didn't wanna play BUG anymore, and asked if it was OK if he played a different deck. Since we weren't cashing either way, I agreed as I really wanted to play the mirror again (and the fact that I hate BUG). Memory is a bit fuzzy, as we were both really tired and just played for fun. A Divert on my Decay aimed at his Delver was the highlight. :laugh:

2-4-0

Tempo decks were everywhere, but everyone was ready. The top 8 were 3 Elves, 1 Dredge, 1 Infect, 1 Maverick, 1 Deadguy and 1 T.E.S. I stayed around 'til the semis because my brother was one of the Elf decks that made top 8 while our car-mate was the Maverick in the top 8.

Overall pretty happy with the deck. But with the meta here a bit different than most, I think my SB needs some tweaking.

Maybe something like this:

2 Submerge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

[Tormod]

@ sherko

tough breaks

I find threshold is sometimes slow to achieve with this deck. The additional fetch and probes that RUG run, make it a turn or 2 more reliable for thresh.

I run 1 pithing needle in my sb, typically for Lily and Aether vial.

if anyone is curious This what I'm running in my sb, tuned for my local (for now)
2 REB
2 Pierce
2 submerge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical (reanimator and dredge @ my LGS)
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 diabloic edict
1 Fire Covenant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Divert

[mog]

Just to clarify, is LotV = Liliana of the Veil? In the past, I've used LotV as an acronym for Leyline of the Void.


Scrubbed at the tourney. :frown: 40-something people showed up.

R1 vs Junk Goodstuff
G1 I drew Fetch, Waste, Stifle, Stifle, Delver, Land, Daze. Needless to say, I wreaked havoc. Secured a win shortly after landing a Goose when he Decay'd my Delver. G2 and G3 I saw 5 LotV in total. I sided out FoWs and Dazes and never managed to find the Pierce when I needed them.

0-1-0

R2 vs Punishing Jund
G1 I got outclassed by LotV again. Goyfs won it for him after I threw my Decay on the LotV. G2 I managed to get him down to 5 or 4 after trading cards 1 for 1. He finally landed an LotV (again!) and sac'd my DRS. Next turn I dropped a Goose, he dropped a BBE and cascaded into another LotV, sac'd his other LotV to sac my Goose. I managed to Decay that one later on but shortly after he dropped a 3rd LotV. Damn that b*tch!

0-2-0

R3 vs RUG
I was already a bit on tilt. G1 saw us answering each other card for card. Bolts on Delvers, Wastes met Stifles and let to counter wars. After nearly exhausting our hands, we were both left with 3 lands. He managed to land a Goose after I FoW'd the first one and dropped me down to 8. He was at 17. I drew my own Goose and traded with him. We both went into draw-go for a few turns. I managed to draw FOUR LIGHTNING BOLTS. A few turns later he dropped Sylvan Library, I Snare'd, he FoW'd. He took an extra card with the Library and went down to 11. EoT Bolted him twice. My turn Bolt 2x again LOL. G2 he managed to Waste + Surgical my Scalding Tarn + Tropical Island. I kept a hand with double Scalding Tarn. I got screwed. I eventually drew into lands but he had Loam and it was GG. G3 was my turn to screw him. He Surgical'd my Volcs again but he kept a really greedy hand. I won off a Delver and double Waste.

1-2-0

R4 vs DnT

This was fairly easy. I won G1 with Delvers, Goyfs and tons of removal. G2 I lost to him clogging up the board with Fire Covenant nowhere in sight. G3 I won by clogging the board and removal again. He had Ghostly Prison which prolonged the match up, but 6/7 Goyf + enough mana to pay for double Ghostly Prison sealed the deal as he didn't have Crusader/MoM.

2-2-0

R5 vs Miracles

G1 my Goose took 6-7 turns to *****, was a really bad draw. Gave him enough time to stabilize despite not being able to cast Terminus (Stifle'd him twice). I got rid of 2 Counterbalance and 1 RiP (drew 3 Snares). Eventually he cast Elspeth to prolong the game. Then Jace a couple of turns later. He assembled top + balance and it was GG. G2 was practically the same. I drew Sulfuric Vortex and he was down to about 7 or 8 when he stabilized with back to back Elspeth into Jace with Countertop on the table.

2-3-0

R6 vs RUG

Played my friend who was also 2-3 with BUG Shardless. He said he didn't wanna play BUG anymore, and asked if it was OK if he played a different deck. Since we weren't cashing either way, I agreed as I really wanted to play the mirror again (and the fact that I hate BUG). Memory is a bit fuzzy, as we were both really tired and just played for fun. A Divert on my Decay aimed at his Delver was the highlight. :laugh:

2-4-0

Tempo decks were everywhere, but everyone was ready. The top 8 were 3 Elves, 1 Dredge, 1 Infect, 1 Maverick, 1 Deadguy and 1 T.E.S. I stayed around 'til the semis because my brother was one of the Elf decks that made top 8 while our car-mate was the Maverick in the top 8.

Overall pretty happy with the deck. But with the meta here a bit different than most, I think my SB needs some tweaking.

Maybe something like this:

2 Submerge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

[Tormod]

Just to clarify, is LotV = Liliana of the Veil? In the past, I've used LotV as an acronym for Leyline of the Void.

Not my post, but its pretty clear to me in this context that that LotV is Lily

[sherko7]

Yep it is Liliana of the Veil :) Damn b*tch lol. I, unfortunately, was not able to play test much against decks that run her.

[Sasan]

True Name Nemesis

Folks the testings are over - all of us have made perhaps 500-600 games with True-Name Nemesis against all strong decks of the meta game. I can now announce if True-Name Nemesis belongs to bUrg.


First I want to thank gluedstamps, mog, Pdingo, sherko7, Star|Scream, Tordmod and bUrg inventor Carsten Linden for joining the tests. You guys rocked.


So what can we say about True-Name Nemesis?

True-Name Nemesis: This creature has the poential to wrap the metagame. It has evasion, can chump block all creatures in legacy and a resolved batterskull. It cannot be killed by spot removal. So it has the wall abilities of a Goyf, the evasion of Delver and the "shroud" part of Nimble Mongoose. The card is utterly great versus midrange and control decks.

Due to the the high mana costs it is a no-go versus combo.

Versus Tempo, the answer of the question "Goyf versus Nemesis" is not clear: Nemesis is not removable for RUG Delver players if it lands, but that is the problem due to their mana screw plan. On the one hand, a resolved True-Name Nemesis is nearly an auto-win for bUrg versus RUG Delver. On the other hand, Goyf is far better castable and can only be removed by Submerges/Dismembers. That is why Goyf blanks half of the removal spells of RUG Delver (Forked Bolt, Lightning Bolt) - he is half-removal proof. So Goyf and True-NameGoyf are at least equally good versus tempo decks. So what is the conclusion? Goyf is better versus combo, equally good versus tempo, worse versus midrange decks. But Goyf is still not that much bad versus midrange decks. In a midrange heavy meta, play 2 True-Name Nemesis over 2 Goyfs. In a balanced or unknown meta, I would stick with the Goyfs and surely have True-Name Nemesis as a sideboard card.

mog has made a great breakdown of the card:

"I've tested 3 matches against RUG Delver and another match against Grixis for my tempo deck testing. In that matchup, it is such a struggle with Nemesis. I use Goyf in these matchups purely as a tempo play since it works so well with Deathrite + Stifle/Snare/Bolt when I have 3 mana. In general, by the time I have Nemesis mana, I'm too far behind in the board/life race for it to be useful. Nemesis just seems like he's so great when you're ahead on board/life but he's just miserable at all other times like when I'm trying to get board presence.

I've tested 4 matches against Shardless and Deathblade and I have the same problem with Nemesis not helping in my tempo game. Goyf just seems better here as well.

I'm just not convinced that he's appropriate for the maindeck in any matchup. Admittedly, I've not tested against Death and Taxes, so my testing might be skewed. There is usually not much Death and Taxes (or only bad Death and Taxes players) here so I'm not so concerned about that matchup. If we need a sideboard card for Death and Taxes, I think it should be Dread of Night. Alternatively, Nemesis is very flexible and versatile and so he may take the slot of Vendilion Clique in my sideboard. But again, in so many situations, it seems to me that Nemesis is only good when I'm already ahead on board. One problem I've had when playing against proper Stoneblade decks is that an opposing Nemesis forces us to overcommit to the board and leaves us wide open to sweepers. It's a troublesome card on the other side of the table.

I've never had much trouble with the Shardless matchups (one opponent described this deck as a Shardless hate deck) and against the Stoneblade decks, I have a strong preference for Goyf because of how much tempo he generates and the power of having a 2cc 4/5 with a mana open for a counter. In short, I think Nemesis is a flop. The 3cc is just so prohibitive in what it allows us to do cards in hand.

What I'm getting at is the fundamental issue of why we cut to 2 Goyfs in the first place. He is so clunky but such a powerful tempo play at the right times. Basically, Nemesis is even more clunky and significantly slower. It's taking us back to the place of RUG where they have hands cluttered with Tarmogoyf and are unable to use their 1/2 mana efficiently except here we're talking about 2/3 mana. Gitaxian Probe helps them in that situation, providing an answer about whether or not to play Goyf. We don't have that luxury here. And in so many situations, when I play Goyf, we are already in a topdecking war and I am already behind or ahead on board. If I'm ahead on board, that's great, because Goyf means I actually get some value versus their blockers. If I'm behind on board, that's great, because Goyf means I can actually force a damage race and win it with Shaman. With Nemesis, it seems that I topdeck him and I get no added value unless they're already far behind on life, in which case, he ends the game for me. If they have more power on board, he just loses and I continue the topdeck war without a Goyf to generate that positive pressure in a racing situation.

Fundamentally, I think it is an issue of the 3/1 body. It would be great if he were bigger. But 1 extra power on Goyf at a less mana means 2-4 fewer turns for the opponent. I play this deck very aggressively and look to play the beatdown in almost all matchups.

Thanks,

Edman"

So my conclusion is that we want True-Name Nemesis as a sideboard card in an unknown or balanced meta.

The most current blueprint list:



Deck: Sasans bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Fire Covenant
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Submerge



The sideboard guide has been updated in the primer. I also took the opportunity to erase a boarding error in the Nicfit matchup. Thanks to gluedstamps for that info.


But what if your meta is full of midrange decks? Can True-Name Nemesis shine there? YES!


Let me introduce you the midrange beater list:


bUrg fights Midrange





Deck: Sasans bUrg Mirdange Beater.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:13
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
1 NiDeathrite Shaman
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Fire Covenant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Submerge



You should now know that the list with 2 Goyfs is perfect for the international meta that is balanced between combo, tempo and midrange decks - the list is also good in a combo heavy meta. But I know that there are many countries (especially in Europe), where combo decks are form only a small meta factor and midrange decks reign supreme. That is why the "Midrange Beater" list has been developed. With 6 Shroud creatures and 9 creatures with evasion and 2 chump blockers that can block everything there is no way that bUrg can lose to midrange decks.

As you know, playing with the somewhat clunky True-Name Nemesis in the main deck marks a problem versus the tempo mirror. We need good tools to fight Stifle-based tempo decks. That is why a added an Ooze to the boad and a 4th Shaman. The tempo mirros come down to the question of having more lands than the opponent. With a fourth Shaman and Loam that should be no problem. Ooze handles opposing Goyfs and Mongeese. With 4 Shamans and an Ooze the Graveyard of the opponent can be shrinked all day. We should have an edge in games 2 and 3 versus Stifle Mirros.

The 4th Shaman can be boarded in versus combo decks as we must board out Nemesis. Nemesis is not good versus combo decks. So if you feel that you have a too low creature count versus combo, consider boarding in Shaman. As Ooze has also an application against Dredge and Reanimator boarding in Ooze versus certain combo decks is a good idea, too.

I posted the midrange beater list as a part of the new primer. But remember that the stock and balanced list is still our blueprint as it can also perfom well in a midrange meta. The midrange beater list is only for metas that have 80% + x midrange decks.

I hope you enjoyed the further improvemts of our beloved deck.

Let the discussions begin!

[Lemnear]

I have no clue why several TNN in the MB doesn't warrant the full set of DRS (MB) as well. Having TNN in SB in a combo-/Tempo-metagame doesn't make much sense either as boarding DRS for TNN doesn't "in general"

[Sasan]

With 3 Shamans we can support 2 MD Nemesis, not more. With 4 Shamans the crucial Mongoose number would have to be cutted to 3. That would be really clunky. In fact we tested with 4 Shamans and all configurations of Nemesis and Mongoose. That are the testing results and beware of the fact that the list you are refering to is only for a midrange meta and not a general meta. And having TNN in the SB for a balanced meta game or a combo orientated one makes perfect sense as you will always face some control and midrange decks. That is why one slot for that matter is good. Please test for yourself before posting such unproven assumptions.

[Lemnear]

Is not an assumption to question a testing-result in which you mention the struggle against opponents manadenial but the list in the end doesn't reflect that.

I don't see DRS challenging Mongeese at all: if you can't feast on your oppnents grave for damage, you let your Mongeese grow and eat their creatures after the slobberknocker or after killing those with AD/Bolt and win the damage race. Flinging Wastelands turn 2 without tempo-loss is another upside as more options to drop turn 2 TNN are.

Unless you play against Reanimator or other GY dependant combo the boarding of TNN against DRS is fishy

[Sasan]

Is not an assumption to question a testing-result in which you mention the struggle against opponents manadenial but the list in the end doesn't reflect that.

I don't see DRS challenging Mongeese at all: if you can't feast on your oppnents grave for damage, you let your Mongeese grow and eat their creatures after the slobberknocker or after killing those with AD/Bolt and win the damage race. Flinging Wastelands turn 2 without tempo-loss is another upside as more options to drop turn 2 TNN are.

Unless you play against Reanimator or other GY dependant combo the boarding of TNN against DRS is fishy

The list reflects that as TNN is a sideboard card in the normal list.

The other list is for a meta with not much tempo decks. I don't see any issues with my statements. You merge both lists.

And you should note the following passage of the primer: "Beware of the fact that the midrange beater list is just a sidekick list and that most testings and improvement time goes into the stock list."

[Star|Scream]

Sasan: Thank you for providing your testing results.

I have a question. How often did turn 1 shaman, turn 2 TNN come up in testing? It seems to me if any deck will benefit from TNN it would be a deck that can cast him on turn 2.

[Sasan]

As a two-off it does not happen that often. You should already know when you normally draw one of your two Goyfs. It is the same here: That is in the end game state. That is why we do not need 4 Shamans to support TNN in the midrange beater list. Turn 2 TNN is perhaps the case in 4-5% of the tested matches. So TNN is only good for bUrg as a sideboard card versus control/midrange as "Mongoose number 5" that can stall games/kill planeswalkers thanks to evasion or as a main deck card in a meta that eats tempo decks for breakfast. But I hope the latter kind of meta will not exist long enough. Combo decks will clear the fields so that the meta will become balanced even in regions where midrange decks reign supreme. Then we can just play with the stock list in every part of the world ;-).

[Star|Scream]

Did you test against other decks who also played their own TNN?

[Sasan]

Only Merfolk and Patriot as I do not see open slots in the Death Blade lists for TNN.

Merfolk becomes rougher but their creatures had evasion versus us even without TNN. The strategy to destroy/counter their lords and the Vials are still the way to win that matchup. We can race a 3/1 creature if we get rid of the rest. I even heard that Merfolk decks will not play TNN as a 4off, but we must wait and see.

Patriot MU stays nearly the same as they had always problems dropping Geist versus us.

If TNN becomes a thing, we need a thrid Pyroblast in the board and/or Golgari Charm. But I do not see the meta wrapping effect now.

[mog]

Yes, the 4 Noble Hierarch decks have me a little worried ;) Shaman, as powerful as he is, DOES require lands in the graveyard in order to make mana and I don't think that it's fair to assume we'll always have that resource available. After all, eating the entire graveyard is one way to win a Shaman war ;) Bant, with 4 Noble Hierarch though, hmm... Reid Duke won with Bant in Indianapolis last weekend. One of the things that I worry about the most when testing is whether or not we're missing out on some broken strategy because we're so focused on our own decks relative to the known metagame. But in that deck, it seems Knight of the Reliquary seems better. Who knows? I'm excited to see the results of BoM :)

[sherko7]

I'm starting to think 3 Snares MB is too much. I've been stuck with it a lot recently. I think I might want to go -2 Snare +2 Pierce. I think we have enough answers to 2 drops in Abrupt Decay. Also, counter intuitive as it may seem, I think Pierce is the way to approach a midgame meta. Most decks that I had a tough time against are Liliana decks. They generally run A.D. which can stop our early Delver. Mana denial can only take us so far. Remember that Jund packs 24 lands! :laugh:

[mog]

I've been thinking the same lately. I'd start with the Spell Pierce in the main with the Snare moved to board to help with the Show and Tell decks. It's a tough call though because Snare is so good against Goyf, SFM, Infernal Tutor, etc.


I'm starting to think 3 Snares MB is too much. I've been stuck with it a lot recently. I think I might want to go -2 Snare +2 Pierce. I think we have enough answers to 2 drops in Abrupt Decay. Also, counter intuitive as it may seem, I think 3 Snares is the way to approach a midgame meta. Most decks that I had a tough time against are Liliana decks. They generally run A.D. which can stop our early Delver. Mana denial can only take us so far. Remember that Jund packs 24 lands! :laugh:

[sherko7]

I've been thinking the same lately. I'd start with the Spell Pierce in the main with the Snare moved to board to help with the Show and Tell decks. It's a tough call though because Snare is so good against Goyf, SFM, Infernal Tutor, etc.

I had to edit my post. I meant "Pierce is the way to approach a midgame meta..", not Snare. Well against Goyfs we have our own Goyfs and Abrupt Decay anyway. SFM we have Stifles too. Infernal Tutor, well, Pierce does the same (almost).:laugh:

[Sasan]

In the current meta game snare is bonkers versus all fair decks. It can make hard games even or move it to our favor. In games 2 and 3 the Spell Pierces are there from the board but Snare is so crucial in game 1. I cannot recommend going down in the Snares numbers. If you want to play main deck Pierces please run Probes, too. Only the combination Probe/Pierce has proven to be ok in tempo decks versus midrange decks or if you do not play Probes, just stick with Snares. It is not easy to explain why that is the matter, but the extra information of Probes makes it manageable to use removal and pierces wisely. Without that you need counters that can hit everything, so Snare is the most logical conclusion after Dazes/Forces. Counterspells and Izzet Charm would work there too - the first hits everything and the second has the removal and pierce option. But as these cards are cc2 we stick with Snares that hit Goyfs, Stoneforges, Confis, Counterbalances, Thalias, Strix, Hymn, Punishing Fire...every key spell in the fair matchups is affected ;-). Versus combo we neither need Snares or Pierces that much. Force, Stifle and Flusterstorms for the win ;-).

[Lemnear]

Not convinced ... Snare is a blank vs S&T.dec, Elves, Bloodmoon or Planeswalkers. Wouldn't feel too well with such holes in my defense especially because AD can handle most 2cc spells (sans Tutor or Wish)

[SirTylerGalt]

Not convinced ... Snare is a blank vs S&T.dec, Elves, Bloodmoon or Planeswalkers. Wouldn't feel too well with such holes in my defense especially because AD can handle most 2cc spells (sans Tutor or Wish)

I agree that it's a blank against S&T, Blood Moon, and Planeswalkers.

Is Snare really that bad against Elves though? It can counter Elvish Visionary, stopping Symbiote + Visionary shenanigans. It can also counter a GSZ with x=1 (you might want to take Snare out G2 since they will be aware of that). Worst comes to worst, it's still a blue card for FoW.