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View Full Version : Modern Metagame breakdown (Question, not anything interesting)



YamiJoey
09-06-2013, 07:43 AM
Would we be able to get any serious metagame breakdown discussion going here like we have in the Legacy section? I recently ended my X-Blade streak (I have played Blade in every Legacy tournament I have ever played up until this last weekend), in no small part to my ability to use this forum as a base for what kinds of things I should be looking at. Also Jace was in the FTV that I ended up buying a playset of, but whatever.

The ability to look at this forum and have a very good idea about what kinds of things I should be expecting to see allowed me not only to decide on a good archetype, but also allowed me to actually play a control deck. I was very much in the dark about how to really play Blue in Legacy, as there are a lot of different threats to deal with over the course of a tournament, but simply looking at the stickied thread and glancing around the top forum for a while, I felt incredibly confident, and swiftly T8'd the event. (Dying in the Q's because I didn't Force a Hymn for god knows what reason.) I feel that the Modern section of the forum seriously suffers from a lack of the same kinds of tools. TC decks has the same resources available for Modern as it does for Legacy, but I have absolutely no idea how these points are assigned, so would not know how to define what decks did what exactly. Right now I see no UWR control deck thread, and it seems to be both very popular, and very strong. The same is true for Melira Pod, Kiki-Twin, and a swath of other decks, but Kithkins, Merfolk, and and random brews are right at the top of the page. Whilst I am a huge advocate for going rogue, brewing up new strategies, and refining decks that have fallen out of favour, the lack of showing by decks clearly stronger has an adverse effect on the way the forum looks, and thus how lowers the quality of the discussion.

The UWR control deck - for example - is so varied right now. There are a million different variations on various card slots and speeds of the deck. It would be nice to get some kind of stable place to discuss this kind of thing in this forum without it dropping off to the bottom of the page all the time to be replaced by Kithkins. I know it would have a positive effect on my own results, and I'm sure others could benefit from it, too. I'm not asking for the forum separation that Legay gets, even just stickying the decks of the month would be more that appreciated. It allows us to easily see what's doing well, and gives us a better perspective on the metagame.

Maybe I'm lazy, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but Modern is incredibly fun and diverse, and I'd like to see it given some more love on here.

Thanks,
Jo

JDK
09-06-2013, 09:18 AM
You can discuss about the meta-game here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25804-Modern-Metagame .

Some time ago I've already pm'ed Di about getting stickies, an established-section or a dedicated Modern moderator, but he just told me there are no plans for this as there is not much activity in the Modern section anyway.

Mr. Safety
09-07-2013, 07:04 PM
I would love for this to take off more. Modern is now my format of choice, due to Legacy devolving into a 'casual' scene. I would play against someone's Standard deck from 2006, crush them, and then they would whine. Then I'd face one serious deck at the end of the tournament. It just wasn't worth 3 hours of my time to durdle against scrubs.

Modern, on the other hand, lets me see tons of decks, many of them tier (several Pod variants, Splinter Twin, UWR control/mid-range, Jund, Tron variants, and tier 2 decks like Enduring Ideal combo, Goryo/Breach combo, RDW, etc.) The breakdown, which is outdated by now, that was done by H3llsp4wn (linked above) was awesome, something I would stay on top of regularly to see which decks are popular/performing well. I play Jund, Death Cloud, 4-Color Gifts, and Ad Nauseam combo in Modern so it would be nice to see how to meta-game or branch out even further into other decks (like maybe Tezzerator, which seems fun and powerful.)

Anyways, I'd love to see more action in the Modern section so it could be developed into a more serious hub here. Other forums exist, but none as well organized and just plain streamlined as this one.

JDK
09-08-2013, 02:18 AM
There's a breakdown of June/July on the last page. I'll make a new one at the beginning of October.

Polish Tamales
09-08-2013, 10:29 AM
I'd love to see this site as the main community hub for external formats.

Eventually, I'd like to see a wider embrace towards the format, rather than the butt end of a joke.

Phoenix Ignition
09-08-2013, 03:00 PM
I agree, but it's really hard to make people like something. I'm actually pretty happy with where Modern has been going over the past few months. The Death and Taxes mono-white deck has come out in force (at least online, which is the only place I currently play), and Scavenging Ooze decks have given some more tools to fight against graveyard combos. Tron is still around, which I think is bad just because the deck is pretty non-interactive but that's just opinion, but most decks seem to have been evening out in skill level to play.

I guess anything is a welcome change from "play brainstorm or show and tell" format.

Polish Tamales
09-08-2013, 06:02 PM
I agree, but it's really hard to make people like something. I'm actually pretty happy with where Modern has been going over the past few months. The Death and Taxes mono-white deck has come out in force (at least online, which is the only place I currently play), and Scavenging Ooze decks have given some more tools to fight against graveyard combos. Tron is still around, which I think is bad just because the deck is pretty non-interactive but that's just opinion, but most decks seem to have been evening out in skill level to play.

I guess anything is a welcome change from "play brainstorm or show and tell" format.

Tron seems to be the most annoying list. It doesn't really allow brews to exist in the format, outside of established ones. Turn 3 Karn? ...Okay.

I think I've just gradually got more responsible with money in general too. I mean, I could spend $120 USD and get another Karakas to fine tune a Miracles list, OR I could turn my UWR control list in modern and covert it into a Splinter Twin list and have extra for dinner. Then there's the turn 1, blood moon or some other obscene combo to worry about if I wasn't on the play game 1... LOL

Maybe this is someone's cup of tea, but all this is relevant to have fun for me. I can't speak for everyone else.

JDK
09-08-2013, 07:15 PM
Modern is not a "bring your brew to a tournament"-format. Every format has certain decks you HAVE to be able to beat. If you cannot beat Tron, "no fun" is not an argument, as it's a matter of deck design. I mostly play UW Tron, which is completely different from GR and has a bad matchup against it, but that's something I accept. I have to, because unlike other decks like (G)W Hatebears I cannot naturally fit in stuff like Revoker, or - to name a more common card in the format - Stony Silence.

What I am trying to say is, that Tron is not broken or anything like that, it's just something people refuse to acknowledge when building their deck and that's why it seems so good against "random" stuff.

Phoenix Ignition
09-08-2013, 09:26 PM
Modern is not a "bring your brew to a tournament"-format. Every format has certain decks you HAVE to be able to beat. If you cannot beat Tron, "no fun" is not an argument, as it's a matter of deck design. I mostly play UW Tron, which is completely different from GR and has a bad matchup against it, but that's something I accept. I have to, because unlike other decks like (G)W Hatebears I cannot naturally fit in stuff like Revoker, or - to name a more common card in the format - Stony Silence.
We've had this discussion before, but I disagree. "No fun" is one of the most driving arguments of people playing any format. If I don't have fun playing I just won't play, there are plenty of other formats and hobbies to do. Magic is expensive, and if people aren't having fun they'll sell their cards and do something else. Just take a look at the general feeling of this website (people who already play magic at a competitive level) on the topic of Modern -- it's pretty much more hated than standard.

The problem with tron, other than making "bring your brew to a tournament" decks lose, is that Modern is just not equipped to hurt decks running nonbasic lands. Tectonic edge is too slow to disrupt Tron, Ghost Quarter hurts the GQ player so badly that no one runs it. Any land destruction (the 'best' way of disrupting Tron) costs at least 3, and is all counterable, making it too slow and too easy to stop (GR has a million ways to find their Tron lands, blue tron have at least 8 counterspells to stop land hate).

The problem is that very few things interact with it, in any color, and modern just isn't equipped to deal with abusive lands. Even Blood Moon doesn't do much to stop Tron decks. The only decks that can consistently beat Tron are combo, and they've gone downhill from all the bannings.



What I am trying to say is, that Tron is not broken or anything like that, it's just something people refuse to acknowledge when building their deck and that's why it seems so good against "random" stuff.

Most deck types don't work because there are very few cards that interact with tron. Yeah, you can play mono-white anti-search cards. You can try red with blood moon (not very effective...). You can play all the artifact hate you want, but even those don't punish Tron more than 1 for 1, which isn't enough to beat them.

I still like the format because most people don't want to play Tron, but it is probably the best deck, and any game I am forced to play against it is worse than any other matchup in any other format.

JDK
09-09-2013, 09:41 AM
"No fun" is one of the most driving arguments of people playing any format. If I don't have fun playing I just won't play, there are plenty of other formats and hobbies to do.
That's why I don't play T2, because Thragtusks are "no fun" for me. This "argument" is not leading the discussion anywhere and doesn't matter, because if you want to play competitively, you have to deal with certain things. It's always been like that and Magic is still growing.

The different Tron archetypes (GR, U, UW & UR) play completely differently. I can understand your complaints to some extent regarding GR, but all the other ones are rather slow and easy to interact with. U Tron doesn't have a strong counter-suite and UW is even worse in that department, but it has real creature removal. Tectonic Edge hurts blue based Tron decks A LOT. So does a Ghost Quarter lock and UW doesn't even play much basics (~2). Blood Moon is annoying and slows the decks down. Stony Silence is probably the most annoying hate-card to work with, as it shuts down Signets, Expedition Maps, Oblivion Stones, Chromatics and toolbox stuff like Explosives. Spreading Seas is also a maindeckable (Merfolk) card, which buys you time. Sowing Salt and Molten Rain also do work, especially against blue based Tron. Then there are Fulminator Mage and Avalanche Rider, cards we see in maindecks of GB(R) and Living End. Boom // Bust is also a card.
There are enough options despite the usual counters and discard.

That said, if you cannot finish the game yourself with the additional time, your deck is not competitive. FNM is your place to go.

Mr. Safety
09-09-2013, 06:24 PM
I don't understand the sentiment that Modern is 'no fun', seriously. You get games that generally last longer than Legacy and are much more interactive, for the most part. I find it as fun as Legacy, just not quite as powerful on a general level. Honestly, how could it be without Brainstorm et al? That's fine with me. Modern is also still fairly unformed. There is a developed tier structure, but it hasn't been widely developed as a metagame at-large yet. What I mean by this is that popular decks are being played not neccessarily decks that prey on the meta-game. Yes, Jund will always be a deck, just like in Legacy Canadian Threshold (RUG Delver) will always be a deck. And yet people are still brewing/tinkering with alternative decks for Legacy to take advantage of the same old decks (Imperial Painter is getting some love lately.)

Modern isn't boring, it's just unexplored. If you had the same player base in Modern as Legacy you'd see a dramatically different picture, I'd wager.

Phoenix Ignition
09-09-2013, 06:43 PM
That's why I don't play T2, because Thragtusks are "no fun" for me. This "argument" is not leading the discussion anywhere and doesn't matter, because if you want to play competitively, you have to deal with certain things. It's always been like that and Magic is still growing.
Not for us, at least. But it might be a main reason as to why public opinion is so low on Modern.


The different Tron archetypes (GR, U, UW & UR) play completely differently. I can understand your complaints to some extent regarding GR, but all the other ones are rather slow and easy to interact with. U Tron doesn't have a strong counter-suite and UW is even worse in that department, but it has real creature removal. Tectonic Edge hurts blue based Tron decks A LOT. So does a Ghost Quarter lock and UW doesn't even play much basics (~2). Blood Moon is annoying and slows the decks down. Stony Silence is probably the most annoying hate-card to work with, as it shuts down Signets, Expedition Maps, Oblivion Stones, Chromatics and toolbox stuff like Explosives. Spreading Seas is also a maindeckable (Merfolk) card, which buys you time. Sowing Salt and Molten Rain also do work, especially against blue based Tron. Then there are Fulminator Mage and Avalanche Rider, cards we see in maindecks of GB(R) and Living End. Boom // Bust is also a card.
There are enough options despite the usual counters and discard.

That said, if you cannot finish the game yourself with the additional time, your deck is not competitive. FNM is your place to go.

I agree with much of this, but the real problem is, like I said, not enough ways to stop Tron from going solitaire all over you. The ways that stop it all cost too much, and I don't agree that decks are bad if they can't solo tron in the time that Blood Moon or Stone Rain stalls them. In Legacy there's a balance in that most decks have an available card pool to put things in their sideboard to significantly stop a deck. Every deck, if it wanted, has at least 1 card it can load up its sideboard with that will make any matchup significantly better. In Modern, there really isn't much for Tron-hate.

To say that stuff like Fulminator Mage really helps is not very realistic. What should I do, waste my 3rd turn playing a Stone Rain and hope they don't have the same broken land again? Modern doesn't have access, or at least can't use as well, the quick threats that legacy has. That means that only hyper aggressive decks can really capitalize on Stone Raining an opponent. Even then, there's a similar problem to legacy in that the best disruption is blue, and the deck that can abuse this the most is blue. Blue tron has Remand/Condescend and at least Remand is by far the best counter in the format. If you can resolve a Sowing Salt, you may be too late, but chances are it'll just be remanded a couple times and then Tron won't care.

All the work done by Stony Silence is wasted by a single EoT Repeal. Sure, it'll slow them down a bit, but everything that slows down Tron costs enough mana to make it slow you down an equivalent amount, if not more. Remember, even with a Blood Moon in play, all Tron has to do is hit turn 5 or 6 to land that Wurmcoil Engine. Playing a 3 mana Blood Moon, assuming you didn't get it Remanded, slows you down significantly.

JDK
09-09-2013, 08:17 PM
You refer to Legacy as a format that gives every deck the option to have access to one card that makes every MU significantly better. I just mentioned a ton of options to hinder Tron and get your gameplan through and there's even more. The things you just posted make me wonder about your experience with Modern in general.

Have you ever played Tron against Living End with Fulminator Mage and Avalanche Rider as well as Beast Within?
Have you ever played Tron against GB with Fulminator Mage and Maelstrom Pulse?
Have you ever played Tron against Loam?
Have you ever played Tron against (G)W Hatebears w/ Ghost Quarters and Tec Edges MD?
Have you ever played Tron against any of the other mentioned hate cards? A Blood Moon or whatever is not good, because they can still play Wurmcoil Turn 5/6? Holy fuck, you cannot win by that turn and/or deal with a creature? You deserve to lose, seriously. Stony Silence gets Repealed? Yeah, GR really packs those Repeals and UW consistently pulls that 1-of (hint: the card is better against 2-color Tron).

The fact is, blue based Tron decks are simple control decks and not an evil force. If you cannot beat counters, you are doomed anyway. GR doesn't run counters, so you can safely play every goddamn hate-card available without any fear of it not resolving. Aggressive decks are already favored against Tron anyway.

Please tell me what you are playing, so I can understand why you've got such an attitude towards Tron. Fungus Tribal? :P

You think Tron is not easy to interact with, I think there are enough options out there. Apparently we are not going anywhere with this discussion, so I will leave it at that.

@Mr. Safety
Oh, I like Modern a lot and it's fun for me...at least most of the time.

Phoenix Ignition
09-09-2013, 09:46 PM
You get upset pretty easily, I'm just voicing opinions on the format as a whole. Many people agree that there are large problems with the format that need answers before it will be largely played and enjoyed. If you want to say I'm a noob because I think there aren't good answers versus Tron, go for it.

But just to "prove" how awesome I am or something...

You refer to Legacy as a format that gives every deck the option to have access to one card that makes every MU significantly better. I just mentioned a ton of options to hinder Tron and get your gameplan through and there's even more. The things you just posted make me wonder about your experience with Modern in general.

Have you ever played Tron against Living End with Fulminator Mage and Avalanche Rider as well as Beast Within?
Yes, only mono U tron, and I lost to it. It doesn't help, though, that one of the only good decks against Tron is a combo (especially one so easily hated on)


Have you ever played Tron against GB with Fulminator Mage and Maelstrom Pulse?
No, I'm unaware of any GB decks, maybe I haven't played this format enough?


Have you ever played Tron against Loam?
Nope, that deck also hasn't been played for at least 6 months, since both Deathrite and now Ooze are in the format.


Have you ever played Tron against (G)W Hatebears w/ Ghost Quarters and Tec Edges MD?
No, I've played GW hatebears against Tron though, and it is highly variable. Pyroclasm is really fucking good against any hatebears and 2/2s aren't fast enough to kill before Wurmcoil hits. I win probably slightly over 50% but to be fair the deck is designed to hate mana bases.


Have you ever played Tron against any of the other mentioned hate cards? A Blood Moon or whatever is not good, because they can still play Wurmcoil Turn 5/6?
I've been on both sides of this matchup. How are you so incredulous? Have you been Blood Moon'ed with a Wurmcoil in hand and 3-4 lands + an artifact accelerant in play? It's really not that scary, especially since most decks slow themselves down and hurt their own manabases when they play the Blood Moon. They generally leave themselves 1-2 basics in the colors they care about, which slows them down too. With GR I ran 4x Nature's Claim, and I ran additional bounce spells in blue.



Holy fuck, you cannot win by that turn and/or deal with a creature? You deserve to lose, seriously. Stony Silence gets Repealed? Yeah, GR really packs those Repeals and UW consistently pulls that 1-of (hint: the card is better against 2-color Tron).

I dunno about you, but I know 0 decks that play Blood Moon main. I also don't know about what Tron deck you play, but my Tron sideboard always included some sort of hate for Enchantments, whether it is bounce or otherwise. Usually, I'd sideboard some in if they were playing a deck that would likely have either Stony Silence or Blood Moon (or pithing needle or Suppression Field or Phyrexian Revoker)


The fact is, blue based Tron decks are simple control decks and not an evil force. If you cannot beat counters, you are doomed anyway. GR doesn't run counters, so you can safely play every goddamn hate-card available without any fear of it not resolving. Aggressive decks are already favored against Tron anyway.

Please tell me what you are playing, so I can understand why you've got such an attitude towards Tron. Fungus Tribal? :P
Right now I'm playing RUG delver (with Young Pyromancer) and mono white D&T. Blood Moon in Rug Delver doesn't hurt me that much since I run 5 Islands and loads of fetches. Nevertheless, it still barely slows down mono U or GR. It's decent against UW, but they also play enough speed boost artifacts to make it somewhat irrelevant. And then a 6/6 Lifelinker who needs to be Pathed or wins the game comes down.


You think Tron is not easy to interact with, I think there are enough options out there. Apparently we are not going anywhere with this discussion, so I will leave it at that.

If you're going to be so hostile about it then yeah that's fine.

JDK
09-10-2013, 06:16 AM
It's rather tedious to argue with you, if you don't even follow the format enough to know about GB.dec or whine about Enchantment removal out of the sideboard (GR Tron can easily cast colored spells against a Stony Silence, because they run so much color-producing lands, right?).

As expected, you play niche-decks (not quite as niche as Loam, I will give you that :laugh:), so I know at least where you are coming from.

Anyway, is someone of you playing on MTGO too? I am looking for test partners.

Phoenix Ignition
09-10-2013, 12:34 PM
It's rather tedious to argue with you, if you don't even follow the format enough to know about GB.dec or whine about Enchantment removal out of the sideboard (GR Tron can easily cast colored spells against a Stony Silence, because they run so much color-producing lands, right?).
I've been playing in 3 dailies this week alone on MTGO, the fact that I haven't seen anyone playing GB means I don't think it's a "real" deck in the metagame. Have you never heard of "in response to your Stony Silence, I crack an orb and float a green mana"???? Seriously, this is how you beat stuff like Blood Moon in UGB decks.


As expected, you play niche-decks (not quite as niche as Loam, I will give you that :laugh:), so I know at least where you are coming from.
RUG delver isn't really niche... it has gotten second at a GP. Your arbitrary definitions are pretty obnoxious.


Anyway, is someone of you playing on MTGO too? I am looking for test partners.
I play 20-30 games a day, but you're kind of a dick.

JDK
09-10-2013, 12:55 PM
Please tell me you are not referring to GP Columbus, which was a year ago. The metagame has changed a lot since then.

Like you always have the chance to have mana open to crack the Chromatic AND have the Claim available.

As for GB, take a look at the MOCS or Player Championship results. Maybe take a look outside of your limited play experience.

Phoenix Ignition
09-10-2013, 01:16 PM
Please tell me you are not referring to GP Columbus, which was a year ago. The metagame has changed a lot since then.

Like you always have the chance to have mana open to crack the Chromatic AND have the Claim available.
I'm seriously wondering if I'm completely off the mark here, but all GR tron decks I've played against (and played with, the 2 times I played in person) ran Grove of Burnwillows. Do they not? Why are our views of these decks so different?


As for GB, take a look at the MOCS or Player Championship results. Maybe take a look outside of your limited play experience.
My play experience is completely limited to the online scene, I'll give you that, but it's also by far the most active scene that I've heard of. The average Daily I've played in has around 70 people on weekdays, more on weekends. Maybe I've just dodged that one.

JDK
09-10-2013, 05:58 PM
Yes, they run colored sources, but in small numbers and Stony Silence strips them off the tutors. Even if they find the source naturally, it costs them a card and a turn.

MOCS is online and it's by far the most prestigious tournament on MTGO.