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Phoenix Ignition
09-15-2013, 07:24 PM
Well, it looks like the best deck of the format is decided: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpdet13/welcome#1

...and it's BGx!

Looks like Scavenging Ooze shored up all of it's bad matchups. Only question now is what will be banned?

Aggro_zombies
09-15-2013, 07:33 PM
I would like to say, "Maybe they'll unban some sweet blue cards since this format is pretty hostile to U/x decks," but let's get real, they'll just keep banning cards because Wizards seems to be pretty terrible at actually managing formats proactively.

Phoenix Ignition
09-15-2013, 07:55 PM
The real problem with a Jace unban is that they'd have to reprint it first, since holy shit is that card expensive!

Unbanning GSZ won't help the problem of all similar deck lists.

Bitterblossom would probably be unsafe just because it's so good and fits in these decks already. Same for Bloodbraid.

Honestly, looking through the banned list again, all I think that can be safely unbanned is Jace and Ancestral, although Ancestral is such an easy splash who knows if that would significantly change the format.

Aggro_zombies
09-15-2013, 08:18 PM
Unban Ponder, ban Kiki? Given the current speed of combo decks, Jund is actually still good against them, and Ponder gives the blue decks some of the consistency they need without being over the top.

But who knows. I would play Pod in Modern because it's one of my favorite cards, but I'm not interested in playing against Jund all day erry day.

Phoenix Ignition
09-15-2013, 09:24 PM
Unban Ponder, ban Kiki? Given the current speed of combo decks, Jund is actually still good against them, and Ponder gives the blue decks some of the consistency they need without being over the top.

But who knows. I would play Pod in Modern because it's one of my favorite cards, but I'm not interested in playing against Jund all day erry day.

The ban on Kiki would have to happen, and I think other combo might be too good but it's hard to tell. Scavenging Ooze is really good, especially against the old versions of UR storm, so it might be okay.

Clearly something has to happen.

apple713
09-15-2013, 11:40 PM
with all the jund running around jace would see little play.

and he wold get trolloped by recursive creatures in pod.

ancestral is only busted with cascading creatures, but since they already banned BBE, and shardless isnt in the group, it should be safe.

as much as i want Dark depths to be unbanned, its probably not safe.

the rest of the banned cards seem to help Green decks.


The modern format seems incredibly shallow in its meta comparable to standard....way to go WOTC.

Jund, Pod, Splinter

everything else is battling for scraps

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 12:39 AM
Affinity can also do pretty well, but it doesn't help that all the decks are mid-rangey creatures + possible combo. I guess Twin is less midrange creatures, depending on the white splash or not, but yeah, swing for X format is getting less and less interesting as time goes on.

I really do think that Scavenging Ooze is the reason it went over the top, since it shuts down the more combo oriented decks quite a bit more. Let's hope for some unbannings, I think Jace could actually bring control back (even if it will be GUx control).

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 01:23 AM
The real problem with a Jace unban is that they'd have to reprint it first, since holy shit is that card expensive!

Unbanning GSZ won't help the problem of all similar deck lists.

Bitterblossom would probably be unsafe just because it's so good and fits in these decks already. Same for Bloodbraid.

Honestly, looking through the banned list again, all I think that can be safely unbanned is Jace and Ancestral, although Ancestral is such an easy splash who knows if that would significantly change the format.
You think Jace and Ancestral Vision are the only cards that can be safely unbanned? Jace is far from safe, and even if you think he is perfectly fine, there's safer cards on the list. And where is Golgari Grave-Troll? That card isn't just safe, it has about as much business being on the list as Land Tax did for Legacy. Or are you excluding it because everyone just knows it being banned is a joke and there's no point in mentioning it?

That said, I will agree Ancestral Vision seems fine. As I once saw someone say, saying it's okay to win on turn 4 but you can't draw three cards on turn 5 is rather silly.

Personally I think Sword of the Meek would be a fairly safe unban, and would probably be a good thing. It doesn't benefit BGx, there's reasonable hate for it, and it doesn't even win you the game on the spot (granted, it makes your odds of winning the game significantly better, but we're not talking Goryo's Vengeance into Griselbrand here). Now to be fair, the sudden surge in BGx is recent, but I can't help but feel that in retrospect, unbanning it would've been a good sign considering the Top 8 we got.

The funny thing is, I was at the Grand Prix and didn't play against a single GBx deck. Maybe if I had made Day 2 that would've been different, though.

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 01:29 AM
You think Jace and Ancestral Vision are the only cards that can be safely unbanned? Jace is far from safe, and even if you think he is perfectly fine, there's safer cards on the list. And where is Golgari Grave-Troll? That card isn't just safe, it has about as much business being on the list as Land Tax did for Legacy. Or are you excluding it because everyone just knows it being banned is a joke and there's no point in mentioning it?

Golgari isn't likely to see an unban based on WotC's self-admitted hate for dredge decks and that's why I didn't mention it. It's garbage, especially with Deathrite + Scavenging Ooze, but they won't unban it no matter what.


Personally I think Sword of the Meek would be a fairly safe unban, and would probably be a good thing. It doesn't benefit BGx, there's reasonable hate for it, and it doesn't even win you the game on the spot (granted, it makes your odds of winning the game significantly better, but we're not talking Goryo's Vengeance into Griselbrand here). Now to be fair, the sudden surge in BGx is recent, but I can't help but feel that in retrospect, unbanning it would've been a good sign considering the Top 8 we got.
Good point, and since Scavenging Ooze is so prevalent now there's even maindeck hate to stop it. It's annoying as hell but anything to make control decks better seems decent to me.


The funny thing is, I was at the Grand Prix and didn't play against a single GBx deck. Maybe if I had made Day 2 that would've been different, though.
Yeah, but just imagine the next GP if they don't change anything... it'll be like 95% of the players who can get their hands on the BG cards playing it.

264505
09-16-2013, 02:30 AM
Yeah, but just imagine the next GP if they don't change anything... it'll be like 95% of the players who can get their hands on the BG cards playing it.

If that ends up happening, I would probably want to be the guy playing Karn on turn 3.

YamiJoey
09-16-2013, 03:36 AM
If that ends up happening, I would probably want to be the guy playing Karn on turn 3.

You realise Jund is a bad MU for Tron, right? Especially the White versions like Ajundi and Junk.

It's 1 tournament. Scooze has hurt the UWR deck, we'll find a way back. Ban Abrupt Decay and see me roar. (I know that will neither happen, not needs to, but Isochron Sceptre is one of my favourite cards.)

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 03:53 AM
You realise Jund is a bad MU for Tron, right? Especially the White versions like Ajundi and Junk.
Wha...? Jund is a great matchup for Tron. The versions running Ajani are a little better against Tron, but Tron still has the advantage.

That said, GB Rock is decent against Tron because unlike Jund, it plays Tectonic Edge and Fulminator Mage, which make things a lot tougher for Tron. I don't know if GB Rock is favored against Tron--a single Wurmcoil Engine gives GB Rock fits--but Jund itself is easy for Tron to beat.

JDK
09-16-2013, 08:36 AM
Well, it looks like the best deck of the format is decided: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpdet13/welcome#1

...and it's BGx!

So, are you convinced yet?

Anyway, I am still baffled why Wizards lacks the budget to cover one of the few Modern GPs. It's really a shame, since we get to see a shitload of boring M14/limited GPs.

Ertai87
09-16-2013, 08:38 AM
The format is fine. Look, it's a bunch of midrangey creature decks in the Top 8, all of which play green (except Robots, we still have to fix that), and none of the things the target audience hates, like countermagic and Storm Combo. The metagame of "midrange, midrange, midrange" is perfectly balanced, just like WotC plans it to. Can't you see how beautiful a format -

Alright, I can't keep this up, I'm afraid of spewing hot drinks all over my keyboard if I continue any longer. This format is stupid in basically every way. About half the things on the banned list can come off, there is no format diversity, and pretty much every addition they've made to the banned list has been a mistake. The format's a joke.

aluisiocsantos
09-16-2013, 10:17 AM
I usually play most of the time in Legacy and I'm astonished by the lack of blue colors in the tp 8 ahha. Maybe they should unban some blue techs

Nidd
09-16-2013, 11:19 AM
Quick to judge, are we not? The last 2 GPs didn't have a single copy of BGx in the Top16, if I remember correctly and the WMC was pretty much a UWR slugfest, which means Control mirrors all day, folks.
But hey, who am I kidding, I know fairly well by now that the vast majority of the Legacy population has a burning hatred for Modern itself and are as quick to call other formats trash as they are to cry "SKY IS FALLING DOWN!!!" when something about Legacy either changes, or it stagnates, or the prices go up again (which means that there's always something to complain about). Oh well...

I, for one, find it amusing that, safe for Affinity, every deck in the Top8 featured Overgrown Tomb, aka had some number of DRS in it and that Pod won.
But, as always, I'd like a complete breakdown of Day 2 featuring all of the decklists. The breakdwon without the lists isn't worth a penny when there were, like, 9 copies or so of something called "Splinter Bant" and nobody can say what the heck this should be.

JDK
09-16-2013, 01:14 PM
@Nidd
BGx was already dominating the MOCS, so it's not out of the blue. Not saying it should be crippled immediately, though. ;)

Anyway, I like Modern despite some bannings I don't agree with. I just hope they will keep up the support and stop cutting GPs and shifting PTQ seasons.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 01:25 PM
I like how half the meta is Tarmogoyf, DRS, Abrupt Decay, and Dark Confidant.

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 02:03 PM
So, are you convinced yet?

Get over your personal hatred for me saying that there need to be more forms of nonbasic hate in the format, it's childish.

Quick to judge, are we not? The last 2 GPs didn't have a single copy of BGx in the Top16, if I remember correctly and the WMC was pretty much a UWR slugfest, which means Control mirrors all day, folks.
But hey, who am I kidding, I know fairly well by now that the vast majority of the Legacy population has a burning hatred for Modern itself and are as quick to call other formats trash as they are to cry "SKY IS FALLING DOWN!!!" when something about Legacy either changes, or it stagnates, or the prices go up again (which means that there's always something to complain about). Oh well...
I play modern quite frequently, but it's not fun playing in a format where there is a best deck. I'm not a Standard player for the same reason. Scavenging Ooze really does change what can and can't work, though, since it's so good against so many deck that normally green isn't.


I, for one, find it amusing that, safe for Affinity, every deck in the Top8 featured Overgrown Tomb, aka had some number of DRS in it and that Pod won.
But, as always, I'd like a complete breakdown of Day 2 featuring all of the decklists. The breakdwon without the lists isn't worth a penny when there were, like, 9 copies or so of something called "Splinter Bant" and nobody can say what the heck this should be.
Okay, well here it is:
Archetype Count
Splinter Twin 18
Affinity 18
Rock 17
Tron 16
Melira-Pod 13
Jund 12
RWU 12
Splinter Bant 9
Junk 9
Ajundi 8
WUR Twin 7
UR Delver 4
Naya Midrange 3
GW Midrange 3
Scapeshift 3
Kiki-Pod 3
Infect 3
RG Aggro 2
Burn 2
Eternal Command 2
Hexproof 2
BUG Delver 1
UBWG Control 1
UB Tezeret 1
Esper Mill 1
Burn 1
Grixis Control 1
Monowhite Vial 1
RUG Delver 1
UB Control 1
WU Control 1
Boros 1
UW Delver 1
Living End 1
Pyromancer Ascension 1
Merfolk 1
Vengeance 1


With all of the results being found from here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpdet13/day2

Even with Pie-Charts: (Start of day 2)
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/events/gpdet13/decks-Day2.jpg
After round 12
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/events/gpdet13/top-decks-rd12.jpg

Nidd
09-16-2013, 02:12 PM
I know that breakdown and it got a lot better when they decided to add colordistribution and the charts, but publishing all of the Day 2 decklists would go a long way.

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 02:20 PM
Ah, I see what you mean now.

Still though, considering 27% of the meta at the beginning of the day turned into 75% of the metagame by top 8 means we have at the very least an interesting result happening.

It is a bit early to judge, I'll give you that, but this is a pretty big sample size and outliers like this don't usually happen.

I am biased and on the side of unbanning some of the blue control cards to try to improve the format, though, so take everything with a grain of salt.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Ah, I see what you mean now.

Still though, considering 27% of the meta at the beginning of the day turned into 75% of the metagame by top 8 means we have at the very least an interesting result happening.

It is a bit early to judge, I'll give you that, but this is a pretty big sample size and outliers like this don't usually happen.

I am biased and on the side of unbanning some of the blue control cards to try to improve the format, though, so take everything with a grain of salt.

Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland.

Nidd
09-16-2013, 02:53 PM
Ah, I see what you mean now.

Still though, considering 27% of the meta at the beginning of the day turned into 75% of the metagame by top 8 means we have at the very least an interesting result happening.

It is a bit early to judge, I'll give you that, but this is a pretty big sample size and outliers like this don't usually happen.

I am biased and on the side of unbanning some of the blue control cards to try to improve the format, though, so take everything with a grain of salt.
I'm all for unbanning a few cards. In my opinion, unbanning 1 of the cantrips (Ponder or Preordain, certainly not both), Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision and GGT would be easy picks. Sure, Bitterblossom goes into the BG deck, but playing it in Jund or even Ajundi looks fairly suicidal and there are certainly enough tools to deal with it.
While Wild nacatl might actually kill non-Naya Aggro (outside of Affinity), there are no "real" Aggro decks in the format, anyways, so the format would actually gain something.
1 of the cantrips would strenghten Storm and Twin, while also strenghtening Control. Ancestral Vision would also be a nice boost to Control (or even Combo. Suspending it against Control looks very sweet.).
GGT is a complete joke, keep Dread Return on the list and all it does is improve this terribad Dredgevine deck that noone cares about currently.
I also think Chrome Mox would be nice to have in the format, but that would probably mean that Twin would become overwhelmingly strong. Splinter Twin would have to get the axe.
Finally, Sword of the Meek is fine by me. What's holding back Control in the moment is the lack of a good finisher and Sword of the Meek solves that just fine.

Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland.
No.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 03:18 PM
No.

Then enjoy your hilarious ban list of stuff like Wild Nacatl and Blazing Shoal. :laugh:

JDK
09-16-2013, 03:33 PM
Get over your personal hatred for me saying that there need to be more forms of nonbasic hate in the format, it's childish.
I don't hate you, I just wanted to remind you about our "discussion" about GB.dec a few days ago. "Told you so", nothing more.

Anyway, classic Drago in here.

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 03:41 PM
I don't hate you, I just wanted to remind you about our "discussion" about GB.dec a few days ago. "Told you so", nothing more.


I suppose you'd be happier with someone who is rigid and doesn't change their opinion with new information? Seriously, think about what you're trying to get out of your comments so far. Would you be happier if I take up the opposite position as you just so you can keep derailing this topic with random arguments and inflammatory posts?

As for reprinting Wasteland, I don't think it's the stupidest idea proposed so far. In fact, I find it worse that decks can decide to splash two colors just for Ajani Vengeant and still make top 8 at a GP. There is so little punishment for excessively greedy manabases that I don't think unbanning stuff like Jace or Ancestral would even change anything, the BGx decks could just as easily throw in a couple blue shocks and play the new cards as well. Even Wild Nacatl is easy enough to splash 1 Sacred Foundry for and use in these decks.

Fundamentally different cards, like Thopter Foundry and GolgariGT would be good to freshen up the archetypes, possibly, but I think they're too underpowered at this point to do anything.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 03:57 PM
As for reprinting Wasteland, I don't think it's the stupidest idea proposed so far. In fact, I find it worse that decks can decide to splash two colors just for Ajani Vengeant and still make top 8 at a GP. There is so little punishment for excessively greedy manabases that I don't think unbanning stuff like Jace or Ancestral would even change anything, the BGx decks could just as easily throw in a couple blue shocks and play the new cards as well. Even Wild Nacatl is easy enough to splash 1 Sacred Foundry for and use in these decks.

Fundamentally different cards, like Thopter Foundry and GolgariGT would be good to freshen up the archetypes, possibly, but I think they're too underpowered at this point to do anything.

Which is ironic since they're banned. FFS, Dredge isn't a DTB in Legacy because of that 1 CMC planeswalker. WotC is utterly incompetent when it comes to managing Modern. It's a shame because Modern has great potential too.

EDIT: I also find it disheartening that Jund is doing so well again despite the ban on Bloodbraid Elf. That to me says that WotC banned the wrong card. I wonder what other cards on the banned list are wrong cards?

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 04:52 PM
EDIT: I also find it disheartening that Jund is doing so well again despite the ban on Bloodbraid Elf. That to me says that WotC banned the wrong card. I wonder what other cards on the banned list are wrong cards?

This isn't necessarily true. Especially in decks that are basically, "good cards thrown together," it may be impossible to just ban 1 card and hope to make the deck even with other decks. The best card of a few archetypes of decks was banned at the start of modern, but many of these cards were make-or-break the archetype cards. Faeries can't be nearly as good without Bitterblossom, Jace being banned hurts true control decks beyond measure, Thopter Foundry was pretty much it's own archetype of control. Some of these cards were just leagues above other ones.

Bloodbraid was pretty good card advantage. It mid-late game jund nearly unstoppable. But even without it, they have stuff like Liliana, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze. These cards are just so much card advantage, SOoze is the only one that doesn't actually provide card advantage against every deck, but life gain and killing Graveyard combos is close enough. The deck is playing a bunch of anti-synergetic cards (Goyf + any of the graveyard removal stuff), but the cards are just so good on their own that it's really hard to point to a specific problem.

I'd expect any 1 of these cards being banned in BBE's place wouldn't stop the deck from being Tier 1, there are just so many forms of card advantage in these colors (and so few in other colors).

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 04:55 PM
This isn't necessarily true. Especially in decks that are basically, "good cards thrown together," it may be impossible to just ban 1 card and hope to make the deck even with other decks. The best card of a few archetypes of decks was banned at the start of modern, but many of these cards were make-or-break the archetype cards. Faeries can't be nearly as good without Bitterblossom, Jace being banned hurts true control decks beyond measure, Thopter Foundry was pretty much it's own archetype of control. Some of these cards were just leagues above other ones.

Bloodbraid was pretty good card advantage. It mid-late game jund nearly unstoppable. But even without it, they have stuff like Liliana, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze. These cards are just so much card advantage, SOoze is the only one that doesn't actually provide card advantage against every deck, but life gain and killing Graveyard combos is close enough. The deck is playing a bunch of anti-synergetic cards (Goyf + any of the graveyard removal stuff), but the cards are just so good on their own that it's really hard to point to a specific problem.

I'd expect any 1 of these cards being banned in BBE's place wouldn't stop the deck from being Tier 1, there are just so many forms of card advantage in these colors (and so few in other colors).

I personally don't think BBE is as good as any of those other cards, but I digress.

Then maybe the solution is to ban all of those cards if WotC does not want to unban stuff to try and balance Jund out. Course, if WotC does that...

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 05:04 PM
I don't think they're as stupid as everyone thinks. At least in some respects.

They know that Modern became a laughing stock when it got bans on the best cards at every opportunity. In fact, I think that's where most of The Sourcer's opinions on the format came from. They even unbanned Valakut as their last official action affecting the metagame in the format, which did make a small splash and 1 of those decks even top 16ed this GP. I expect they're just being extremely cautious now. Modern has been under fire for all of these bannings and I expect it's the last thing they'll want to do.

Edit: Honestly if I had to bet on it I'd say they unban ~something~ if this BGx train continues for the next few months.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 05:16 PM
I don't think they're as stupid as everyone thinks. At least in some respects.

They know that Modern became a laughing stock when it got bans on the best cards at every opportunity. In fact, I think that's where most of The Sourcer's opinions on the format came from. They even unbanned Valakut as their last official action affecting the metagame in the format, which did make a small splash and 1 of those decks even top 16ed this GP. I expect they're just being extremely cautious now. Modern has been under fire for all of these bannings and I expect it's the last thing they'll want to do.

I can agree with that. They're incompetent at times but I don't think they're stupid per say. I believe as well that they are quite well aware of the negative views held about Modern.




Edit: Honestly if I had to bet on it I'd say they unban ~something~ if this BGx train continues for the next few months.

Here is the current Modern banned list:


Ancestral Vision
Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Wild Nacatl


They wont be unbanning artifact lands or Skullclamp. I'm sure the horrors of Mirridon in Standard is still alive in their minds. I also don't think they will touch anything that can speed up combo decks, so the mox, cantrips, and other boosters are off the list. Now it looks like this:

Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Punishing Fire
Second Sunrise
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of the Meek
Umezawa's Jitte
Wild Nacatl

I can't imagine them unbanning anything that will help Jund. Jitte, Elf, GSZ, Punishing Fire, and Top can't be choices. Also, some other combo cards likely will stay on there like Shoal, Glimpse, and Dark Depths. They can't unban stuff like Ancestral Vision because cascade cards still exist.


Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I don't WoTC will ever consider JTMS or SFM after their existence in standard together.


Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Mental Misstep
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 05:19 PM
Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland.
So your suggestion on how to limit the power of BGx midrange is to bring in a card that's ineffective against it and a card that improves it?

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 05:23 PM
Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Mental Misstep
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?

Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return are safe but WotC hates dredge decks, and has written about it previously as a failure. I believe they will stay banned regardless.

Mental Misstep is a terrible card in all respects and will not be unbanned in Modern or Legacy ever.

Ancestral Visions can be unbanned because the cards with cascade are currently extremely awful in any normal deck. I don't think Preordain or Ponder are that scary, although if all of the cantrips are unbanned it probably would result in combo becoming a decent part of the metagame (which WotC also dislikes). Preordain or Ponder could probably be safely unbanned at this point, though I bet they're still hesitant on those.

Jace is iffy, as turn 3 Jace off of Deathrite Shaman is just too easy to do, but I'd like to see it happen. It'd give blue a viable form of card advantage that right now is only being held up by Snapcaster (which gets eaten alive by DRS + Ooze) and Cryptic Command (pretty hard to use in most decks). It won't happen unless they reprint it though, because like I said before, holy gods is that expensive.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 05:23 PM
So your suggestion on how to limit the power of BGx midrange is to bring in a card that's ineffective against it and a card that improves it?

FoW is terrible against Jund. However, it's great against other combo decks. If other combo decks can be put into check with FoW instead of a ban list, combo decks can be allowed to become faster, which will make them better at killing Jund, which will make Jund weaker. Jund works well with Wasteland but wasteland also works against Jund as well depending on the deck using it. It would also be used to keep the combo decks in check.

My thoughts were to allow decks to keep Jund in check rather than a banned list.



Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return are safe but WotC hates dredge decks, and has written about it previously as a failure. I believe they will stay banned regardless.

Mental Misstep is a terrible card in all respects and will not be unbanned in Modern or Legacy ever.

Ancestral Visions can be unbanned because the cards with cascade are currently extremely awful in any normal deck. I don't think Preordain or Ponder are that scary, although if all of the cantrips are unbanned it probably would result in combo becoming a decent part of the metagame (which WotC also dislikes). Preordain or Ponder could probably be safely unbanned at this point, though I bet they're still hesitant on those.

Jace is iffy, as turn 3 Jace off of Deathrite Shaman is just too easy to do, but I'd like to see it happen. It'd give blue a viable form of card advantage that right now is only being held up by Snapcaster (which gets eaten alive by DRS + Ooze) and Cryptic Command (pretty hard to use in most decks). It won't happen unless they reprint it though, because like I said before, holy gods is that expensive.

Yeah I forgot about Mental Misstep. Goes without saying! :laugh: I disagree with the cascade because even in Shardless BUG the 2/2 isn't that great but the cascade effect is so powerful who cares?

So unban the kitty and sotm is what we agree on.

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 05:25 PM
Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Mental Misstep
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?
I don't think they'll ever unban Mental Misstep. The thing about that card is that it's either completely innocuous (as in Standard) or absurdly format-warping (as it was in Legacy). Which way it would be in Modern I'm not sure, but it's just a gigantic risk without much potential gain.

But Ancestral Vision should be on that final list. You reject it because "cascade cards exist" but all the cascade cards suck. Bloodbraid Elf is banned and Shardless Agent doesn't exist in the format. What, are you honestly going to forego all cards that cost less than 3 mana just so you can play Ardent Plea and cascade into Ancestral Vision? It's crippling your deck just so you get to cast Concentrate for 1 less mana.

Even if you do just play a more "regular" deck and hope to get lucky and cascade into it, you're still playing very subpar cards just so you can hopefully get lucky and, again, cast Concentrate for 1 less mana.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 05:27 PM
What, are you honestly going to forego all cards that cost less than 3 mana just so you can play Ardent Plea and cascade into Ancestral Vision? It's crippling your deck just so you get to cast Concentrate for 1 less mana.

Shardless BUG does this in Legacy, why wouldn't it happen here?

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 05:28 PM
Shardless BUG does this in Legacy, why wouldn't it happen here?
Because Shardless Agent is a zillion times better than the cascade cards currently in Modern.

Not to mention you have much better stuff to cascade into.

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 05:32 PM
Shardless BUG does this in Legacy, why wouldn't it happen here?

Because Shardless Agent isn't in Modern. Using Ardent plea to draw 4 cards? Be my guest but that mean's you're not running Path, Serum Visions, Remand, and basically all of the rest of the removal/counterspells that make UW decent in Modern.

The Demonic Dread and Violent Outburst are just bad in general, so if someone is fitting those in to draw 4, they can be my guest (and they aren't running Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, any hand hate... etc.)

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 05:38 PM
Because Shardless Agent is a zillion times better than the cascade cards currently in Modern.

Not to mention you have much better stuff to cascade into.

Well, the cascade card in question is likely Ardent Plea. U/W. Could go R since that's a cool color. Let's assume Visions was legal. What else could you cascade into for UWR (as an example)?

Snapcaster Mage
Path to Exile
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix


There might be more, but what if we did green?

Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Scavenging Ooze

Ok, but what if we did four colors (making white a very light splash) and did BUGw? Remember, land destruction is not nearly as prevalent as it is in the other Eternal formats. The total list of good stuff might look like this:

Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage
Abrupt Decay
Thoughtseize
Dark Confidant
Ancestral Vision

Phoenix Ignition
09-16-2013, 05:44 PM
I don't see the problem, if you're running all sorts of 1-2 casting cost stuff and hope to hit Ancestral Visions your chance is going to be extremely small. What's more, in Modern there aren't a lot of alternate cost cards that let you get away with skipping the 1-2 cost cards (like Force of Will).

If you're diluting your deck with bad cards like Ardent Plea and giving yourself a 1 in 6 shot of hitting an Ancestral Visions, by all means go ahead.

Casting 3 mana for that chance isn't really scary when it's attached to such a bad card.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 05:45 PM
I don't see the problem, if you're running all sorts of 1-2 casting cost stuff and hope to hit Ancestral Visions your chance is going to be extremely small. What's more, in Modern there aren't a lot of alternate cost cards that let you get away with skipping the 1-2 cost cards (like Force of Will).

If you're diluting your deck with bad cards like Ardent Plea and giving yourself a 1 in 6 shot of hitting an Ancestral Visions, by all means go ahead.

Casting 3 mana for that chance isn't really scary when it's attached to such a bad card.

It'd be worth testing. Just promise me you'll keep Hypergenesis banned.

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 06:00 PM
The problem is that while you can cascade into other cards, all that means is that you get to pay extra mana for those cards... so you can get an Exalted trigger. Yay.

And let's remember again, all of this is just so you can cast Concentrate (a card that sees no play because it's weak) for 1 less mana. It's certainly a good deal, but the occasional 3 cards for 3 mana does not strike me as broken enough to merit a banning.

apple713
09-16-2013, 06:31 PM
I personally don't think BBE is as good as any of those other cards, but I digress.

Then maybe the solution is to ban all of those cards if WotC does not want to unban stuff to try and balance Jund out. Course, if WotC does that...

When thinking of things like this its best to break the card up into multiple cards. Would you play a 3/2 haste for CMC 3? maybe... Would you play a 3/2 haste for CMC 2..yeah you would.

great now since he has another effect, lets give that its own card. Cast a random card in your deck with CMC 3 or less for 2 mana. Maybe you don't play that card, but if it costed 1 mana you defiantly would guaranteed.

SO... if its really really good to play a 3/2 haste for 2 mana and a random card from your deck with cmc 3 or less for 1 mana, does 1 colorless mana make combining them onto 1 card really really good, yeah probably...




They wont be unbanning artifact lands or Skullclamp. I'm sure the horrors of Mirridon in Standard is still alive in their minds. I also don't think they will touch anything that can speed up combo decks, so the mox, cantrips, and other boosters are off the list.

I can't imagine them unbanning anything that will help Jund. Jitte, Elf, GSZ, Punishing Fire, and Top can't be choices. Also, some other combo cards likely will stay on there like Shoal, Glimpse, and Dark Depths.

Ancestral Visions - safe now but limiting on future printings
Bitterblossom - unsafe
Dread Return - unsafe
Golgari Grave-Troll - safe as of now
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - probably safe
Mental Misstep - wouldn't change much
Stoneforge Mystic - unsafe
Sword of the Meek - probably safe
Wild Nacatl - probably safe

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?

You've done well up to here.

WOTC should probably be weary of the most powerful standard decks that have been played since urzas block. In my head this would include Stoneblade, Faeries, and Jund.
this theory would keep bitterblossom and stoneforge on the list.

Jace - if scapeshift can win the game for 4 mana, jace should be legal at 4 mana. With all the jund running around jace isnt very good. He doesnt interact with pod either, and is too slow for splinter twin.

Dread return allows busted creatures to be played incredibly early especially with all the dredge creatures remaining in the format.

I think dredge in modern would probably be fine cause its much weaker than its legacy counter part, and all of the decks that top 16'd have easy answers. Ooze, DRS, and RIP.

Golgari is the best enabler for dredge, and if graveyard decks were relevant...ie ooze and DRS wern't dominating the format, this card would. It's probably safe to unban now but would not add to anything currently in the format. When it did have a use, it would probably be too good at filling that purpose.

visions is currently safe cause there are no cascade worth playing that would be worth playing to abuse it. It will probably REMAIN on the list because they could bring the cascade mechanic back and even though they don't always make cards that reuse older mechanics WOTC doesnt like being limited by it.

nacatal, not sure why this card is even on the list. It forces you to play 3 colors to be really useful, however it does strengthen some of the current strong decks.

sword - ehh probably safe because its application is incredibly limited.

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 07:58 PM
Jace - if scapeshift can win the game for 4 mana, jace should be legal at 4 mana.
Scapeshift requires a minimum of six mana to win the game (cast Scapeshift with only four lands in play and see much that wins you the game), and that's with a Prismatic Omen in play and an opponent with life total 18 or less. This is a very poor comparison.

Nidd
09-16-2013, 08:13 PM
Scapeshift requires a minimum of six mana to win the game (cast Scapeshift with only four lands in play and see much that wins you the game), and that's with a Prismatic Omen in play and an opponent with life total 18 or less. This is a very poor comparison.
Wrong. 6 lands in play and Omen on the table equals a total of 72 damage.
You are referring to 7 lands with no Omen.

Lord Seth
09-16-2013, 08:22 PM
Wrong. 6 lands in play and Omen on the table equals a total of 72 damage.
You are referring to 7 lands with no Omen.
You're right. For some reason I was thinking of them getting 5 mountains and 1 Valakut as to how to combo off with Prismatic Omen in play rather than the more obviously correct play of multiple Valakuts.

Still, my point still stands. Saying "Scapeshift wins the game for 4 mana" is inaccurate because Scapeshift needs (effectively) 6 mana to win the game, and even that requires an extra card in the form of Prismatic Omen. And if they don't have that card, they need 7-8 mana instead.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 08:52 PM
Regardless, I feel as though blue control decks are pretty awful in Modern. Jace and Vision could be a the boost they need.

JDK
09-16-2013, 08:52 PM
Wrong. 6 lands in play and Omen on the table equals a total of 72 damage.
You are referring to 7 lands with no Omen.
Actually it's closer to 54 damage (most likely less, since the probability of seeing a Valakut until turn 6 is over 50%, already assuming you didn't draw extra cards from an Izzet Charm or whatnot), since most lists play 3 Valakuts. Or did I miss something?

DragoFireheart
09-16-2013, 09:09 PM
Or did I miss something?

They were talking about the mana cost, not how much overkill you do. Lethal is lethal is lethal, though I suppose it matters if you're fighting a deck like Soul Sisters.

Ertai87
09-17-2013, 02:15 AM
nacatal, not sure why this card is even on the list. It forces you to play 3 colors to be really useful, however it does strengthen some of the current strong decks.

Nacatl was banned because Nacatl aggro was strictly better than all other forms of aggro (except Affinity, which has been a player forever). Take a look at the format we have now, and you can see why that logic is a total joke.

As for actual discussion, this is what I would do if I was managing the list:

1) Forget this "Turn 4" business. This isn't Standard, this is real Magic. If you're paying $150 for a Tarmogoyf, you're not some new kitchen table player who's playing his first FNM. Let's get this joke of a reason out of the way: people who play Modern do not care if their games take 4 turns or 5 turns or 2 turns or whatever.

2) Players want to do powerful things. That's how Legacy has stuck around for so long despite having an incredibly high barrier (pricewise) to entry. If we want this format to be successful, we want to allow players to do powerful things.

Now, here's the banned list:

Ancestral Vision
Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Wild Nacatl

First, we're unbanning Mental Misstep. The rest of what I'm going to suggest assumes Mental Misstep is legal in the format. Mental Misstep was unfair in Legacy because it allowed you to counter a 1-drop on the draw without using a Force of Will in a blue deck. Force of Will is not legal in this format, therefore the situation surrounding the Misstep ban in Legacy does not carry over. It is safe to unban.

Ancestral Vision
Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Wild Nacatl

Now that Mental Misstep is legal, we have an answer to all the oppressive 1-drops that can be played in any deck. If you're not playing the answer, you have no business complaining when it beats you. We can thus take most of the 1-drops off the list. I'll list the ones I'm removing specifically:

Glimpse of Nature (we already have Beck to do the same thing, and Misstep counters everything in Elves anyway)
Ponder
Preordain
Rite of Flame - I hope you're not planning on playing a combo deck that goes off on turn 1 with Rite in a Mental Misstep format
Wild Nacatl

Skullclamp obviously needs to stay, and the Top banning was not due to the power level of the card but due to tournament logistics, which is a problem Misstep doesn't solve. Thus, those 2 stay banned.

Ancestral Vision
Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Punishing Fire
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers

Next, we reread the original post about the initial Modern banned list and we realize that WotC's whole reasn for banning Ancestral Visions was "there aren't enough blue cards on the banned list, let's ban some blue cards." This reasoning was ridiculous at the time, and still is ridiculous now. Let's fix that:

Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Punishing Fire
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers

Now, we want to allow players to do powerful things, because powerful things are fun to do and we want Modern to be fun. Dredge is fun for people who like Dredge. All the same answers for Dredge in Legacy are legal in Modern, and Dredge is barely even playable in Legacy anymore. Plus, Dredge in Modern doesn't have Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study (it has Faithless Looting, but only 4 of that effect rather than 8), Breakthrough, or numerous other cards, so it's a significantly weaker deck in Modern while having to face the same hate from Legacy. It's safe.

Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Punishing Fire
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers

The Green Sun's Zenith banning was because it turned every green deck into "Hatebars + GSZ to fetch hatebears", and having every green deck look the same is stupid. Well surprise, every green deck DOES look the same now! So something screwed up. Either we ban more things, or we admit that the GSZ banning was wrong, and we fix it.

Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Punishing Fire
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers

This is what the Modern banned list would look like, if I was the one controlling it. A couple notes:

1) Jace is probably safe to unban, but the price barrier is an issue. Tarmogoyf is expensive enough, I wouldn't want to play a format with both Tarmogoyf and Jace. That's asking a bit much.

2) Seething Song and Bloodbraid Elf might be safe to unban as well under this model. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are. I'm just not saying so for sure, as I don't have a good argument as to why they would be (plus I want to unban Rite of Flame, and unbanning 2 rituals might be a bit much).

3) Bitterblossom is similar. It's probably safe, but I don't have a good reason as to why.

Here are the rationales for things staying on the list for sure:

Artifact lands: Affinity is probably too good with access to these. It's already a top-tier deck without them, and doesn't need powering up. There's also no good answer to them in the format within the time frame that would be required.

Blazing Shoal/Hypergenesis/Dark Depths: Without Force of Will, these combos are too fast and too degenerate. Rite of Flame is safe because of Mental Misstep, but these combos do not use 1-mana spells, and hence require actual Force of Will, which we don't have.

Chrome Mox/Seething song: Could be safe, but I don't want to push it. Unabn Rite of Flame, see what happens, and go from there,

Cloudpost: Tron is fine. Cloudpost is unnecessary.

Punishing Fire: Creature decks should be a thing. Punishing Fire is too oppressive.

Second Sunrise/Sensei's Top: Logistical tournament issues. Has nothing to do with power level.

Stoneforge Mystic: Possibly safe. Also possibly 2-mana Baneslayer Angel.

Skullclamp: Too gamebreaking, even with Mental Misstep. Rite of Flame is about the same power level, except requires more than 1 card in hand to be insane. Skullclamp is just a 1-card combo.

Sword of the Meek/Umezawa's Jitte: These effects are too powerful for longer games, and we don't want to make the format inbred around Spell Snare.. The difference between making the format inbred around Spell Snare or Mental Misstep is because Mental Misstep is not actually a blue card and can be played anywhere, while Spell Snare cannot.

DragoFireheart
09-17-2013, 12:58 PM
Unbanning Mental Misstep is a really bad idea. It's probably the most format warping card that has existed in Legacy, second only to Flash.

apple713
09-17-2013, 01:07 PM
@ertai87

Zounds like the should just reprint fow, stp, brainstorm, wasteland, and unban everything except skullclamp

DragoFireheart
09-17-2013, 01:14 PM
@ertai87

Zounds like the should just reprint fow, stp, brainstorm, wasteland, and unban everything except skullclamp

Ironic since most people suggested that the Modern format should extend all the way back to Mercadian Masques since that's where the Reserved list stops. For stuff older than that, it can be reprinted if it's not on the reserved list.

Phoenix Ignition
09-17-2013, 01:21 PM
I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon of, "Dear god, anything (literally even skullclamp) before we have Mental Misstep unbanned." I dunno if you played Legacy back then, but this was literally a play that won me the game.

Me: Island, Aether Vial.
Opponent: Mental Misstep
Me: Mental Misstep your Misstep
Him: Misstep your Misstep
Me: DAZE!!!!!!!!

Every deck would need to run 4x Misstep. That's not how you make a healthy format, you can't just let broken things happen and justify them by saying "well, there's this free counterspell for 1cmc cards..."


Ironic since most people suggested that the Modern format should extend all the way back to Mercadian Masques since that's where the Reserved list stops. For stuff older than that, it can be reprinted if it's not on the reserved list.

It would be awesome if they release 1 set back in time from 7th edition until they get through Mercadian Masques. A lot of those sets aren't going to make an impact due to power creep, but I'd have a fun time slowly mixing in older cards until we get there.

DragoFireheart
09-17-2013, 01:24 PM
It would be awesome if they release 1 set back in time from 7th edition until they get through Mercadian Masques. A lot of those sets aren't going to make an impact due to power creep, but I'd have a fun time slowly mixing in older cards until we get there.

What if they did retro-sets with new art/borders? Or would you want the old art/borders?

Great idea IMO.

apple713
09-17-2013, 01:58 PM
What if they did retro-sets with new art/borders? Or would you want the old art/borders?

Great idea IMO.

Old border ofc. New border is trash. Pretty sure they switched due to cost of old borders richness in color... Meaning it cost more.

Davran
09-17-2013, 02:21 PM
I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon of, "Dear god, anything (literally even skullclamp) before we have Mental Misstep unbanned." I dunno if you played Legacy back then, but this was literally a play that won me the game.

Me: Island, Aether Vial.
Opponent: Mental Misstep
Me: Mental Misstep your Misstep
Him: Misstep your Misstep
Me: DAZE!!!!!!!!

Every deck would need to run 4x Misstep. That's not how you make a healthy format, you can't just let broken things happen and justify them by saying "well, there's this free counterspell for 1cmc cards..."

I have to agree here. As much as something needs to change, Mental Misstep isn't it. There would be no reason to not play the full boat in any deck you build, and at that point we might as well have 56 card decks and a starting life total of 18. If you need more "proof", take a look at any modern decklist - you'll find at least one relevant target for Misstep.

Further, Misstep --> Spell Snare/Remand --> Mana Leak --> Cryptic Command would be a very devastating (and frankly un-fun) thing to play against, and I think that's the sort of "interaction" WotC is trying to edit out of the format.

Ertai87
09-18-2013, 03:24 AM
I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon of, "Dear god, anything (literally even skullclamp) before we have Mental Misstep unbanned." I dunno if you played Legacy back then, but this was literally a play that won me the game.

Me: Island, Aether Vial.
Opponent: Mental Misstep
Me: Mental Misstep your Misstep
Him: Misstep your Misstep
Me: DAZE!!!!!!!!


I actually did. I Day 2'd GP Mental Misstep with Mental Misstep in my deck as a 4-of. I did not have that many Mental Misstep battles over the event; in 12 rounds (I had 3 byes) I think I played more than 1 Misstep per turn in maybe 1 game? I don't remember how many rounds went to 3 games, but even if none of them did, that's 1/24 of my games actually had sequences like this. I think this is fine for 1/24 of games.

Also note Daze is not legal in Modern, which is kind of the point.


Every deck would need to run 4x Misstep. That's not how you make a healthy format, you can't just let broken things happen and justify them by saying "well, there's this free counterspell for 1cmc cards..."

Have you played Legacy EVER? Cause that's actually EXACTLY how Legacy works. Or are you suggesting that Legacy, the format with no fewer than 5 Tier 1 decks, as well as decks of all flavors (combo, control, tempo, aggro control, aggro, monored, etc) is not as good as the format where the most recent GP had 6/8 (12/16 in top 16) near-identical decklists, and has had the same deck win 3 GPs in a row?


I have to agree here. As much as something needs to change, Mental Misstep isn't it. There would be no reason to not play the full boat in any deck you build, and at that point we might as well have 56 card decks and a starting life total of 18. If you need more "proof", take a look at any modern decklist - you'll find at least one relevant target for Misstep.

The same argument can be made about pretty much any hate card in Legacy. "You need to have 4 pieces of graveyard hate in your sideboard for Dredge", "You need to play 4 Stifles for fetchlands", "You need to have 4 Force of Wills in every blue deck for combos". Exactly zero of these "common knowledge" phrases are actually true in 100% of cases.

The way it'll actually work in real life is that people will pack 4 Missteps at the beginning to hate on people who don't realize that Misstep changed the metagame. Then the people who don't realize Misstep has changed something will realize it and stop playing decks that lose to Misstep (i.e. the decks with Glimpse of Nature, Rite of Flame, Wild Nacatl, etc, along with currently-not-banned Deathrite Shaman and Viscera Seer) and play something that, while Misstep is not dead against perhaps, Misstep is not as good. Then Misstep will become an "OK but not backbreaking" card, and people will play it less, allowing 1-drops to enter the format again, and it'll cycle like that. Just like what was starting to happen in Legacy before WotC prematurely threw the hammer.

Davran
09-18-2013, 10:08 AM
The same argument can be made about pretty much any hate card in Legacy. "You need to have 4 pieces of graveyard hate in your sideboard for Dredge", "You need to play 4 Stifles for fetchlands", "You need to have 4 Force of Wills in every blue deck for combos". Exactly zero of these "common knowledge" phrases are actually true in 100% of cases.

The issue here is that Mental Misstep is not a hate card in the same way that Mana Leak is not a hate card. If Mental Misstep were unbanned tomorrow I wouldn't be trying to find room in my sideboard for a couple to shore up that Deathrite Shaman matchup.

I don't think you'll ever hear WotC say "Well, we looked at the sideboards in the top 8 of some GPs and Relic of Progenitus was in all of them, so clearly this card is warping the format and needs to be banned." Such a statement is ridiculous, no matter what format you're looking at.


The way it'll actually work in real life is that people will pack 4 Missteps at the beginning to hate on people who don't realize that Misstep changed the metagame. Then the people who don't realize Misstep has changed something will realize it and stop playing decks that lose to Misstep (i.e. the decks with Glimpse of Nature, Rite of Flame, Wild Nacatl, etc, along with currently-not-banned Deathrite Shaman and Viscera Seer) and play something that, while Misstep is not dead against perhaps, Misstep is not as good. Then Misstep will become an "OK but not backbreaking" card, and people will play it less, allowing 1-drops to enter the format again, and it'll cycle like that. Just like what was starting to happen in Legacy before WotC prematurely threw the hammer.

I don't think this is true because there's nowhere for the format to go. Let's say you're right and melira pod and the aggro decks disappeared for a while. What's the best deck in that meta...Tron? Maybe some sort of Gifts Ungiven deck? Who are we kidding with this anyway? The answer is still Jund, only now they've gone the full 5 colors for Misstep.

Mental Misstep is not the droid you are looking for. We should be having this argument for Jace, or Bitterblossom. Those are the cards that have the greatest potential to shake things up in a positive way by introducing a viable control deck to the format. Bring back Chrome Mox or Rite of Flame and let the combo players have their fun too. This arbitrary turn 4 nonsense is hurting more than it's helping.

nodahero
09-18-2013, 12:33 PM
I am an AVID combo player and I can honestly see the value in their 4 turn rule.

Allowing combo to kill faster then that will again warp the format in a SIMILAR way to misstep. You are going to force every other deck to adapt to a plan that can compete with combo. While I like the idea of the format evolving to compete with its predators, I also like the idea of a more interactive/slower format.

Personally I would unban EITHER Mox or Rite and also unban Jace and Visisions as a solution to diversifying the meta and allowing combo to be kept more in check. Blue is the natural foil to combo and combo is a good foil to Jund style decks.

and while I would love to have access to Preordain and Ponder, I think it would be a mistake due to the strength in combo while also unbanning an accelerant.

YamiJoey
09-18-2013, 01:21 PM
Ironically, though, giving Ponder and Preordane back to the Delver players could make combo weaker. Tempo Vs Combo is a joke MU to both watch and play. You also give control something to do that isn't absolutely degenerate. (Seriously; Jace is too good, and drawing three cards is not a joke.)

I really like unbanning Ponder and Preordane as a fix. It's just a thing that needs to happen for everyone to be happy with everything forever. (Read as "I" and "for a week".)

Lord Seth
09-18-2013, 05:43 PM
Preordain or Ponder by itself is probably fine. Both are a bit too good, though.

Personally I'd unban Preordain as it's less good at enabling combo. It's better for controlling your draw than finding combo pieces.

Phoenix Ignition
09-18-2013, 10:52 PM
Have you played Legacy EVER? Cause that's actually EXACTLY how Legacy works. Or are you suggesting that Legacy, the format with no fewer than 5 Tier 1 decks, as well as decks of all flavors (combo, control, tempo, aggro control, aggro, monored, etc) is not as good as the format where the most recent GP had 6/8 (12/16 in top 16) near-identical decklists, and has had the same deck win 3 GPs in a row?
Nah, this isn't at all how Legacy works. Legacy's ban list keeps the format in check more than anything else. It's disingenuous to pretend that free counterspells are the sole reason legacy is the way it is. Even Mental Misstep is banned in Legacy, why don't we just pretend that's the reason for the diversity in the format as long as we're making baseless claims?


The same argument can be made about pretty much any hate card in Legacy. "You need to have 4 pieces of graveyard hate in your sideboard for Dredge", "You need to play 4 Stifles for fetchlands", "You need to have 4 Force of Wills in every blue deck for combos". Exactly zero of these "common knowledge" phrases are actually true in 100% of cases.

The way it'll actually work in real life is that people will pack 4 Missteps at the beginning to hate on people who don't realize that Misstep changed the metagame. Then the people who don't realize Misstep has changed something will realize it and stop playing decks that lose to Misstep (i.e. the decks with Glimpse of Nature, Rite of Flame, Wild Nacatl, etc, along with currently-not-banned Deathrite Shaman and Viscera Seer) and play something that, while Misstep is not dead against perhaps, Misstep is not as good. Then Misstep will become an "OK but not backbreaking" card, and people will play it less, allowing 1-drops to enter the format again, and it'll cycle like that. Just like what was starting to happen in Legacy before WotC prematurely threw the hammer.
Once again your comparisons are way off base. Graveyard hate isn't the same as 1-cmc hate. Every single deck in Modern, bar absolutely none, runs at least 4 good 1cmc cards. These 1cmc cards are the cornerstones of many of these decks, Signal Pest, Deathrite Shaman, Expedition Map, Aether Vial, Thoughtseize, every single card in mono-red, and so on. There is no "evening out" that will happen where decks start to run less than 4 Mental Missteps. If you aren't running it to stop the opponents cornerstone cards, you're going to be running it to protect your own. There isn't a single deck I'd sideboard out Mental Misseteps against right now. If other decks were allowed to run it, you'd better believe I'd run 4 in every single deck.

Legacy at least had the benefit of Sol lands and Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond to boost them into things that didn't cost 1. In Modern it would just be a clusterfuck.

DragoFireheart
09-19-2013, 10:13 AM
Can we stop talking about unbanning Mental Misstep please? I know it's an amusing card but Power 9 would be legal in Legacy before this thing was unbanned in Modern.

Lets talk more about Ancestral Visions, a card that reasonable and could see a unbanning.

nodahero
09-19-2013, 11:52 AM
I genuinely don't think there is much to talk about in the Ancestral Vision department... We all agree it is safe to unban. I can't even make a realistic argument against it beyond that WOTC simply doesn't like control.

DragoFireheart
09-19-2013, 11:58 AM
I genuinely don't think there is much to talk about in the Ancestral Vision department... We all agree it is safe to unban. I can't even make a realistic argument against it beyond that WOTC simply doesn't like control.

I can tell they don't like control: they have to use the ban list to keep combo in deck.

Davran
09-19-2013, 02:06 PM
I genuinely don't think there is much to talk about in the Ancestral Vision department... We all agree it is safe to unban. I can't even make a realistic argument against it beyond that WOTC simply doesn't like control.

Ancestral Vision was probably too good in your RUG Bloodbraid Elf deck and it was also probably too good when suspended on Turn 1 to draw you three cards and add a storm count on your combo turn with your Rite of Flame powered storm deck, so to me it makes sense that it was banned in the first place.

The question is whether or not those two cards leaving the format changed that at all, and for WotC I don't think it has. First off, Ancestral Vision in a modern control deck is fine and always has been. I think the perceived problem for WotC is that it's also pretty great in a combo deck, even one that has been weakened as much as modern storm has. If you think of modern as a turn 4 format like WotC does, you've got your first and second turns to suspend a Vision to have it be relevant on your combo turn...and I think that's what they're afraid of. In their mind, storm was a mistake (just like dredge) that no one finds to be fun, and as a result they're keeping stuff in purgatory (see also Golgari Grave-troll and Dread Return) because of it.

Personally, I say unban it and see what happens. A real control deck in addition to all of the other hate that already exists should help to solve the storm problem if it even pops up.


I can tell they don't like control: they have to use the ban list to keep combo in deck.

Haven't you heard? Magic is the most fun when arbitrary monsters are turned sideways over and over again! Why bother interacting on the stack when you can interact in combat?! Who cares if we're ignoring a major part of how the game actually works. More attacking monsters, please!

Phoenix Ignition
09-19-2013, 03:49 PM
The only problem I see with AV is that GBx decks can easily splash 1 blue Shockland and run it as well. It helps them just as much as any other deck, but I guess Remand is very powerful against it so there is the chance that Remand decks make a comeback.

DragoFireheart
09-19-2013, 04:03 PM
Haven't you heard? Magic is the most fun when arbitrary monsters are turned sideways over and over again! Why bother interacting on the stack when you can interact in combat?! Who cares if we're ignoring a major part of how the game actually works. More attacking monsters, please!

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/1086_1z2qy8ydkb.jpg

Hear me roar as I exist in every eternal format.

rawr

rooneg
09-19-2013, 04:28 PM
Ancestral Vision was probably too good in your RUG Bloodbraid Elf deck and it was also probably too good when suspended on Turn 1 to draw you three cards and add a storm count on your combo turn with your Rite of Flame powered storm deck, so to me it makes sense that it was banned in the first place.

The question is whether or not those two cards leaving the format changed that at all, and for WotC I don't think it has. First off, Ancestral Vision in a modern control deck is fine and always has been. I think the perceived problem for WotC is that it's also pretty great in a combo deck, even one that has been weakened as much as modern storm has. If you think of modern as a turn 4 format like WotC does, you've got your first and second turns to suspend a Vision to have it be relevant on your combo turn...and I think that's what they're afraid of. In their mind, storm was a mistake (just like dredge) that no one finds to be fun, and as a result they're keeping stuff in purgatory (see also Golgari Grave-troll and Dread Return) because of it.

I'm sorry, but huh? Has any version of modern storm that's actually seen play been terribly excited about going off on turn 5? That's the earliest you can have your ancestral vision go off (assuming you don't cascade into it), so as long as we've got viable combo decks that go off on turn 4 I'm failing to see how the existence of storm decks has anything at all to do with the ban on ancestral vision. As far as I can tell it's entirely about banning enough of the U/B Faeries standard deck to keep people from having nightmares about reliving that standard season, just like Stoneforge and Jace are about keeping people from reliving Caw Blade.

Lord Seth
09-19-2013, 05:10 PM
Every single deck in Modern, bar absolutely none, runs at least 4 good 1cmc cards.
Living End.


I think the perceived problem for WotC is that it's also pretty great in a combo deck, even one that has been weakened as much as modern storm has. If you think of modern as a turn 4 format like WotC does, you've got your first and second turns to suspend a Vision to have it be relevant on your combo turn...and I think that's what they're afraid of.
It's terrible in a combo deck, actually, because if you draw it after your first turn then you're stuck with a useless card. It's still weak in control decks if you draw it later in the game, but it's not as useless as it is in combo, when you want to be drawing something like Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand rather than a card that doesn't pay off for 4 more turns.

If you're going off when playing Storm, for example, you don't want to draw Ancestral Vision, you want to draw something that will help you win that turn. Combo doesn't want it.

I'm also very confused as to how suspending it makes it "relevant on your combo turn". If that combo turn is turn 4, then Ancestral Vision comes too late--it doesn't resolve until turn 5.

Phoenix Ignition
09-19-2013, 05:14 PM
Living End.

Fair enough, let's unban MM then.

Megadeus
09-20-2013, 09:30 PM
@ertai87

Zounds like the should just reprint fow, stp, brainstorm, wasteland, and unban everything except skullclamp

Sounds like instead of playing modern you should just play legacy

Mr. Safety
09-21-2013, 05:49 PM
It's a little sad that Jund can't be tier deck without dominating the format. I mean, I like Jund, I have a version sleaved, but it's to be competitive. I'd much rather be playing Gifts Ungiven or Ad Nauseaum though, truthfully. But those are just preferences, not a gauge for what should be played.

I would love a Preordain unban; I could finally play a good 1 mana dig spell in Ad Nauseam/Angel's Grace.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2013, 09:09 AM
It's a little sad that Jund can't be tier deck without dominating the format. I mean, I like Jund, I have a version sleaved, but it's to be competitive. I'd much rather be playing Gifts Ungiven or Ad Nauseaum though, truthfully. But those are just preferences, not a gauge for what should be played.

I would love a Preordain unban; I could finally play a good 1 mana dig spell in Ad Nauseam/Angel's Grace.

This is what happens in a skewed format where you can't stop a dominating deck strat without a ban list. Even in formats where a dominating deck exists like Vintage, there exists ways to fight a powerful combination, be it Force of Will or other cards to slow down/punish the dominate deck. You can have a deck do this while not just being anti-DTB deck.

If your ban list has Blazing Shoal on it, it's perhaps time to reconsider what the hell is wrong with your format.

Lord Seth
10-06-2013, 09:57 AM
Blazing Shoal being banned in Modern is no more of a problem than Hermit Druid being banned in Legacy.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2013, 10:29 AM
Blazing Shoal being banned in Modern is no more of a problem than Hermit Druid being banned in Legacy.

I've heard better jokes.

EDIT: Are you seriously comparing Hermit Druid with Blazing Shoal?

Lord Seth
10-06-2013, 07:15 PM
I've heard better jokes.

EDIT: Are you seriously comparing Hermit Druid with Blazing Shoal?
Yes, I am. Both are cards that fuel degenerate combos despite there being theoretically a lot of ways to beat it. Blazing Shoal is a perfectly reasonable ban and I do not see how it is any more of a strike against the format than Hermit Druid being banned in Legacy is.

If you wanted to take issue with the Modern banned list, there's at least 6 cards I would point to before getting to Blazing Shoal.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2013, 08:21 PM
Yes, I am. Both are cards that fuel degenerate combos despite there being theoretically a lot of ways to beat it. Blazing Shoal is a perfectly reasonable ban and I do not see how it is any more of a strike against the format than Hermit Druid being banned in Legacy is.

Blazing Shoal is not degenerate in the same way as Hermit Druid. Not even close. The Blazing Shoal combo (infect creatures IIRC) is easily answerable: kill the creature, counter the shoal, etc. For Hermit Druid, it can be setup in such a way that you must either counter it or nuke the graveyard (as it can be given haste).

They are not comparable in the least.





If you wanted to take issue with the Modern banned list, there's at least 6 cards I would point to before getting to Blazing Shoal.

This just reinforces the idea that the issue isn't with the cards but with how the format is handled. No one should be surprised to see a single deck flood a GP. The good news is Modern is salvageable. Decks that prey on Jund/Rock will likely start being played more. WotC could fix the banned list (hopefully with unbans and not bans). New decks can still be developed that could compete with Jund/Rock.

If I were to develop a new deck, Boros colors might be a good start. RW is starting to hit a critical mass of good cards in those colors for this format.


Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
Path to Exile
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Boros Charm
Boros Reckoner
Stormbreath Dragon
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon

nodahero
10-06-2013, 09:02 PM
One of the above is not like the rest... cough Elspeth cough

Lord Seth
10-06-2013, 09:24 PM
Blazing Shoal is not degenerate in the same way as Hermit Druid. Not even close. The Blazing Shoal combo (infect creatures IIRC) is easily answerable: kill the creature, counter the shoal, etc.
Which is why the deck used counterspell backup to prevent the opponent from doing that. Let's take a look at the deck (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=909621) Sam Black played. That's an impressive amount of countermagic he has at his disposal (not to mention the fact that Muddle the Mixture doubles as a tutor for either Blazing Shoal or a Blighted Agent). An opponent is likely going to need multiple disruption spells to be able to fight through the countermagic he had ready.

It sounds like an easy combo to stop, but when you actually stop and look at it it's a lot harder to beat than you'd think. So, again, kinda like Hermit Druid.

That said, it was played at a time when Ponder and Preordain were legal in the format, and it's possible the substantially inferior cantrips would make the combo much less consistent.


For Hermit Druid, it can be setup in such a way that you must either counter it or nuke the graveyard (as it can be given haste).
Only if they have the haste card (which they're likely still delayed on, after all even with turn 1 Concordant Crossroads, you need three mana to be able to cast it and use it on the same turn), otherwise it can be killed just like another other creature. Not to mention the fact that graveyard hate flat-out kills it, which is not true for Blazing Shoal. The amount of hate you can offer them seems surprisingly equal.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2013, 09:30 PM
@Seth: I'll agree to disagree.



One of the above is not like the rest... cough Elspeth cough

I could see her as a 1-2. You don't think she's any good?

nodahero
10-06-2013, 11:07 PM
Not with the other cards. The rest of those cards seem very good for a super aggressive deck. Elspeth is very control oriented given her 6 cost, especially in modern.

Phoenix Ignition
10-06-2013, 11:31 PM
@Seth: I'll agree to disagree.

He gives you a perfectly reasonable explanation with facts listed out and even a decklist as to why Blazing Shoal is banworthy and you say stuff like this.

DragoFireheart
10-08-2013, 07:08 PM
He gives you a perfectly reasonable explanation with opinions listed out and even a decklist as to why Blazing Shoal is banworthy and you say stuff like this.

That's what you actually meant. I don't have to agree with him.