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hamster
09-25-2013, 05:11 AM
Anyone tried playing those over Voice of Resurgence?

Seems like good value. Instead of getting a Finks and a token, you get 4x Finkses. They are more ressiliant to hosers like Path, Hallowed Burial, Rest in Peace and that new Slagstorm from Theros (you can chose to sandbag a couple to play post sweeper) plus they block stuff like Inkmoth Nexus all day long.

I mean, Melira Pod is on everybodies radar at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised if Anger of the Gods is gonna see a huge amount of play

I have never played Pod myself (except Zombie Pod in Standard), so this is really just me thinking out of the box.

hamster
09-25-2013, 05:25 AM
On a different note, I've thought about saving up for a value Pod deck (like the old Standard one or Caleb's Legacy Pod deck). The reason being that the hundreds of times I've played against Melira Pod I think I've witnessed them actually comboing off 2-3 times. And the 20-30 Melira Pod matches I've watched on stream I don't think I have ever seen a game where the streamer comboed off (ok maybe I'm exaggerating)

It just seems like stuff like Viscera Seer are a complete waste of space most of the time.

So what I'm thinking is to brew a Junk-esque deck with a bunch of value creatures, some disruption and throw in 4x Pods just for value (much like Caleb's Legacy deck). This probably also makes me save money on Chord of Calling.

Bad idea/good idea? What do you guys reckon?

nodahero
09-25-2013, 10:54 AM
I would strongly disagree on the rate of comboing off first and foremost.

On the topic of a value build vs Melira... I think Kiki Pod is almost exactly what you want. I saw one variant that ran Domi Rade as well and that list seemed to take the appraoch you were looking to go. As an aside, I prefer that approach because it makes you less all in on the Pod plan.

jarvisyu
09-25-2013, 11:09 AM
MeliraPod is a better value deck than Kiki-Pod.

It's less clunky and it's a better Gavony Township deck.

Viscera Seer is embarrassing by itself, but so is Deceiver Exarch.

I can see wanting to cut Voice of Resurgence if you think Anger of the Gods will be a big presence in Modern (I don't think it will be personally).

hamster
09-25-2013, 11:12 AM
I actually thought that it was the other way around. That Melira was the value build and therefore also less explosive. Kiki Pod can make crazy lines with only a 1 and a 2-drop in play

sac 2-drop, fetch Deceiver Exarch, untap Pod, sac 1-drop, fetch Phanastmal Image, copy Deceiver, untap Pod, sac Image, fetch Resto Angel, blink Deceiver and untap Pod, sac Resto Angel and fetch Kiki.

But I haven't piloted any of them, so I'm pretty clueless when it actually comes down to it.

And I'm probably wrong about the combo rate of Melira. I've just always wondered why Melira is the hot thing at the moment. Kiki just seems more elegant and less clunky (2 card combo for starters).

hamster
09-25-2013, 11:14 AM
MeliraPod is a better value deck than Kiki-Pod.

It's less clunky and it's a better Gavony Township deck.

Viscera Seer is embarrassing by itself, but so is Deceiver Exarch.

I can see wanting to cut Voice of Resurgence if you think Anger of the Gods will be a big presence in Modern (I don't think it will be personally).

Ok thanks. Do you think that a pure value take on the deck *could* have a place in modern? I'm just brainstorming here

jarvisyu
09-25-2013, 11:15 AM
Ok thanks. Do you think that a pure value take on the deck *could* have a place in modern? I'm just brainstorming here

The danger of not having a combo built in is that eventually you will get ground out by something like GR Tron or get comboed out by Twin/Storm etc.

By having your own combo (that doesn't eat that many slots), you lock up games.

hamster
09-25-2013, 11:28 AM
The danger of not having a combo built in is that eventually you will get ground out by something like GR Tron or get comboed out by Twin/Storm etc.

By having your own combo (that doesn't eat that many slots), you lock up games.

My innitial idea was to free up those combo slots and throw in hand disruption and removal instead. I've watched a couple of games with Cheon playing the deck where he basically boards out the combo (because it's too slow) against faster decks and boards in Thoughtseizes instead. This might not be the right approach though.

In a way I'm thinking about building a deck that plays out as traditional Junk but instead of playing value cards like Bob and Liliana it plays Pod instead.

Off the top of my head, something like this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Wall of Roots
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Blade Splicer
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Shriekmaw
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Grave Titan

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Birthing Pod

23 Lands

This is a pretty rough scetch but you get the idea.

YamiJoey
09-25-2013, 11:51 AM
The fact that my opponent can randomly kill me at any mid-late stage of the game forces me to play incredibly differently, and allows you to force threats through that are a real problem for me, because if I go around killing everything you do you will just land a Voice or something that will just ruin me, or you will just kill me. (Which is also bad.)

Do not take the combo out, and I would always play 3 Voice. Aside from that, Hawks seem cool, is there any way to make them actually useful?

hamster
09-25-2013, 12:05 PM
The fact that my opponent can randomly kill me at any mid-late stage of the game forces me to play incredibly differently, and allows you to force threats through that are a real problem for me, because if I go around killing everything you do you will just land a Voice or something that will just ruin me, or you will just kill me. (Which is also bad.)

Do not take the combo out, and I would always play 3 Voice. Aside from that, Hawks seem cool, is there any way to make them actually useful?

Gavony Township ;)

I don't know they might be too cute. I just really like them in conjuction with Pod.

As far as the combo goes then killing everything the Pod player casts is usually how I beat Pod. It's the only way I know how and that's not so much because I'm afraid of him comboing off it's just that if I don't path his Voice/Finks etc. right away then a couple of turns later I'm gonna stare at Finks, Redcap, Voice token plus a bunch of more dudes. It's really the value side of Melira Pod that ends up getting me and rarly the combo itself.

Playing Pod without Voice is probably pretty loose. It's mostly due to budget reasons though. Yeah I don't know, the idea is probably pretty bad. I'm just a sucker for brews.

Phoenix Ignition
09-25-2013, 12:39 PM
Hawks just seem bad to me. I built this deck on MTGO and have come to realize that I as well win around 30% of games with combo, the rest with just beatdown and value. The thing is, Hawk is a 1/1 for 2. The only reason he's even being considered is because he costs enough to ramp into 3, but that still means you're wasting your turn on him.

The thing about Voice is that he has an automatic target on his head. He's great against any deck playing blue since you blank their counterspells, and can also ramp out a giant creature token that outraces opponents like Tron (while fetching something like Fulminator mage).

You just don't have slots for bad creatures that don't have any value. You will basically never want to Pod away a Bird of Paradise and get anything other than Voice or Scavenging Ooze (or maybe Melira). Beatdown is the normal way to win while playing this deck, but 1/1 fliers don't help you do that more than any other card in here.

Here's the deck that got top 8 at the last GP:
3 Forest
3 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Woodland Cemetery
23 lands

1 Archangel of Thune
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Reveillark
1 Spellskite
1 Spike Feeder
2 Viscera Seer
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Wall of Roots
28 creatures

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Birthing Pod
3 Chord of Calling
9 other spells

Sideboard
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Dismember
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Lingering Souls
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sin Collector
4 Thoughtseize
1 Voice of Resurgence
15 sideboard cards


I play a very similar version and the combo finish, like others are saying, is a huge threat that gets people playing differently against you. The fact that you can combo out with either Melira + Persist + sac outlet, Kiki + Angel, or Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune means that 1/2 of the creatures you play threaten to insta-kill you if the pod deck finds their partner.

hamster
09-25-2013, 01:59 PM
I dunno. I can only speak for myself. I normally play UWR Control where the games usually go: burn, path anything you're playing until you have nothing to Pod away. Poding into Hawk would scare the bejezus out of me because it's the ultimate value play and there's no way I would have an answer for each of the birds (which I kinda have to, because they'll slowly go up the pod chain). It's not really just a 1/1 flier. It's a slightly more expensive Lingering Souls with the upside of turning each of the birds into Finks if you have a Pod in play . And with a Gavony Township in play you'll get a pretty scary board position in a pinch. A lot scarier than a 2/2 attacking. (plus they also do wonders on the defense against Clique, Nexus etc.)

As far as if the combo makes people play differently against you I again can only speak for myself. The only times I have lost to the opponent comboing off was when I let myself in a position where I was dead already. He might as well just have fetched another beater and started attacking me and it wouldn't make much of a difference. The thing is the combo consists of a lot of singletons (even the Spike Feeder/Angel combo) so realisticaly you need a Pod in play to pair those creatures up, unless you draw like a champ. But not only do you need a Pod, but you also need a healthy board position to be able to fetch the right creatures. And if you have a Pod in play and a healthy board position, chances are that you're already winning (again this is from a UWR Control players point of view).

For me playing against Kiki Pod is something completely different, because they can go off out of nowhere (with Melira you often see it coming, or you have already conceeded when they reach that point). And that makes it scary and complex to play against them. If the opponent plays a Voice I have never thought to myself "I wonder if I should save my Path for Redcap/Melira" I just Path it straight away, because chances are that they'll need that Voice to establish a board position big enough to gather all the pieces together. Against Kiki I actually do think: "should I path this or that or should I waith for Deciever/Kiki" and to me that's the main difference.

But again: limited experience talking here. :)

Phoenix Ignition
09-25-2013, 04:18 PM
I dunno. I can only speak for myself. I normally play UWR Control where the games usually go: burn, path anything you're playing until you have nothing to Pod away. Poding into Hawk would scare the bejezus out of me because it's the ultimate value play and there's no way I would have an answer for each of the birds (which I kinda have to, because they'll slowly go up the pod chain). It's not really just a 1/1 flier. It's a slightly more expensive Lingering Souls with the upside of turning each of the birds into Finks if you have a Pod in play . And with a Gavony Township in play you'll get a pretty scary board position in a pinch. A lot scarier than a 2/2 attacking. (plus they also do wonders on the defense against Clique, Nexus etc.)
If you're in top deck wars and the Pod player is activating Gavony, you're dead. Voice gets out of bolt range fast, and I really doubt the Pod player would have 7 mana to play a bird and activate Gavony each turn. That's extremely late game.


As far as if the combo makes people play differently against you I again can only speak for myself.(again this is from a UWR Control players point of view). This line sums it up. The combo isn't meant to be used against UWR, the deck that has the most removal out of any deck in the format. It's to race the decks that don't have over 4 ways of killing your creatures. How do you propose this deck beats Soul Sisters if there isn't a combo finish? Bashing GR tron can win, but likely you'd rather just 1-shot them.

The other part is that many of the 1-of combo pieces straight up beat other decks. Melira crushes Infect. Spike Feeder + Archangel are great against mono red on their own. Kiki gives value to most of your persist creatures, and especially Voice of Resurgence. Getting a voice token every turn is ridiculous if gone unchecked.


For me playing against Kiki Pod is something completely different, because they can go off out of nowhere (with Melira you often see it coming, or you have already conceeded when they reach that point). And that makes it scary and complex to play against them. If the opponent plays a Voice I have never thought to myself "I wonder if I should save my Path for Redcap/Melira" I just Path it straight away, because chances are that they'll need that Voice to establish a board position big enough to gather all the pieces together. Against Kiki I actually do think: "should I path this or that or should I waith for Deciever/Kiki" and to me that's the main difference.
Sure, if you have the Path, Voice is not as good as the hawk. But against the other 8-16 removal spells in your deck, Voice is much better. If Pod is active, the Voice token may or may not be better than getting more Hawks, it depends on what the opponent is doing. Walking Hawks into Remands is often not the best play, and many times when I'm in a position with Pod active and creatures on the board, I'm not casting any spells at all.

Voice also makes Remand/Spell Snare/Mana Leak much worse, and anything that stops the opponent from slowing you down helps.

Voice is great against maindeck board wipes, which aren't uncommon.

Your view is entirely from UWR perspective, and that deck makes up a small portion of the metagame.

hamster
09-25-2013, 05:29 PM
The part about UWR being a small part of the meta game is relative I guess, but I get what you're saying which is also why I wrote that this is all from my narrow perspective.

I do get the point about the combo being good against Soul Sisters but I'm still not convinced that it's essential against the bigger players in the format. Now this doesn't mean that I think I'm right and you're wrong and that I'm that kinda douchebag that have never touched the deck but still thinks he knows it better than anyone else. It just means that I'm not convinced but currious.

For instanse, you mentioned Tron, isn't it tough to get the combo online while fighting through multiple O-Stones, Clasms and Karns? I would think that stripping him off of his pieces with discard spells and simply beating him down with meat before he stabilizes would be a better game plan?

You mentioned that you combo off 30% of the time, is there specific decks you combo off more against than others? haha so many questions :)

You did however misunderstand the "pathing voice" part. That wasn't a Hawk vs. Voice discussion but rather how different Kiki and Melira Pod is when you play against them (as a UWR control player). My point was that when I play against Melira I don't play any different than when I play against other mid-range decks. I really don't care about the combo. Because if he does combo off, I've already lost anyway (because of a supperior board position) so I might as well just Path all of his dorks instead of saving them for specific combo pieces. If you get to keep him on 1 or 2 creatures you're usaully safe as opposed to Kiki Pod where he can go off out of nowhere with a random 1 and a 2-drop in play (sac 2-drop, fetch Deceiver Exarch, untap Pod, sac 1-drop, fetch Phanastmal Image, copy Deceiver, untap Pod, sac Image, fetch Resto Angel, blink Deceiver and untap Pod, sac Resto Angel and fetch Kiki.) and since it's impossible to keep him off of a random 1 and 2 drop (plus a possible Chord in his hand) you actually do want to save your paths for his combo pieces. That's the difference between those two decks in my experience that one of them actually makes you play differenlty (because of the combo) while the other doesn't (again in my experience).

Phoenix Ignition
09-25-2013, 05:37 PM
If you think getting 2 creatures assembled vs tron is hard, why do you think that you could beat them to death with creatures (who also would, presumably, be removed)? It's much easier to land 2 creatures using Pod + Chord of Calling against some decks than others, and those decks tend to be the ones who are doing unfair things themselves.

And if Voice is Removed, he gives you token that can still be a good clock, whereas regardless of the number of hawks you play, you'll only ever have 1/1 fliers. Who die to the same removal. And then you have to pay 2 more mana to make another 1 damage/turn clock.

Just try playing the deck. I think we've gone as far as we can by discussing it.

Aggro_zombies
09-25-2013, 05:43 PM
The problem with Hawks is that, at best, they're a bunch of 1/1 flying dorks for two mana. They have no other abilities and don't force your opponent to make any concessions or changes to his line of play. Basically, their theoretical best-case is not significantly better than their average worth, unlike Voice which can potentially make multiple very large tokens while requiring your opponent to change how he plays his removal and other instants.

In a format like Modern, I can do significantly better than playing a card that pretty much does exactly what it says on the tin and nothing more.

Now, if you were running some sort of strange Pod build with equipment, that might be a different matter, but why you would want to play Pod without a combo finish is really beyond me.

hamster
09-26-2013, 11:46 AM
Hmm I don't know, this discussion is steam rolling into something I didn't plan out or wanted at all (people getting offended etc.) And I'm sorry if I come off the wrong way.

As I stated several times, I have no experience piloting Melira Pod so my questions and train of thoughts are most likely way off. And I do admit that. But still I'd hope that the discussion would be more 3-diminational than "hawk suck", "no they don't" or "Pod without a combo finish would never work", "Yes it might". It kinda forces me into a corner where I have to either agree that it's a bad idea and just close the thread or defend ideas that I don't have the experience needed to defend. I mean the idea is most likely bad and won't probably work in the long run but surly there must be scenarios where it might have its upsides that is worth discussing? Like a pro's and con's list. We probably would come to the same conclusion but I at least would have a more clear understanding of things.

Aggro_zombies: you got a point. But as I see it Hawk is more than what it says on the text box, with a Pod in play at least. They can be what you want them to be. For instance if you board into 4x Fulminators against Tron, you can do some pretty broken things with them (Play mana dork, play Pod, search up Hawk and stone rain the opponent 4 times in a row. This basically turns your Birds of Paradise into a one-sided Armageddon.). But I do agree that they are pretty underwhelming without a Pod in play. Still playing them mid/late-game with a Township in play does create a rather scary board position.

Phoenix Ignition
09-26-2013, 01:27 PM
But I do agree that they are pretty underwhelming without a Pod in play. Still playing them mid/late-game with a Township in play does create a rather scary board position.

Unless the opponent has a sweeper. In which case, they can just take a few damage at most while you grow your 1/1s, and kill them. Or you could play Voice, which gives you high-powered tokens (who can also get Township counters), and shut down the opponent playing things on your turn.

Your scenarios are just plain strange. You're saying Hawks would be better if:
1) You have Pod and excess time to do stuff like "Stone rain" the opponent for a few turns. Well, even in the case where you get pod against the Tron player, depending on what tron you get you may be Remand/Condescended into never getting to do your strategy. Landing 1 creature isn't nearly as hard as getting a chain of 1/1s for :1::w: in play.

2) You don't have a Pod, but have Gavony Township. In this situation, EVERY creature you have is going to get scary. It doesn't matter if it's Birds of Paradise or Deathrite Shaman, you don't need a worse 2 drop in your deck to make Gavony good.

And can we just go into the discussion of it being a 1/1 again, I feel like you're missing that point. Flipped Delver? Trade 4 mana and 2 resolved spells for it. Vendilion Clique? You only "trade up" 1 mana. Clear board? You can pay 2 mana (and a resolved spell) for each 20 turn clock you want to play. There is virtually no way the Hawks are going to finish anyone off before late game. Then they can always just bolt your hawks, if ever a problem. Can't really "just" bolt a Voice.

Board wipe incoming? Well too bad that hawks all die and only leave you 1/1s that you still need to cast. Voice gives you immediate action, which can usually be followed up by some mana dorks pumping the token. It's formidable even when it dies.

Another common situation: It's turn 2, you have Voice/Hawk and Pod in hand. The opponent is tapped out, using Serum Visions or something similar. You play your 2 drop. Next turn comes around, you play Pod.
Scenario 1: You have Voice on the board, opponent has to Remand Pod for fear of your deck killing him. You get a token and wait for next turn, and swing for 2.
Scenario 2: You have a Hawk on the board. Opponent Remands it. You say "Oh." and get in there for 1.
What if the opponent has more counterspells? Voice makes them actually have to consider what they're doing and carefully weigh the options. Giving me a free X/X token? Cool! Letting me resolve Pod? Even better! If you have a 1/1 with a hand full of 1/1s, it really isn't going to force them to do anything differently. It isn't even a good clock...

"You guys are getting emotional" is a pretty dumb cop out when no one has flung insults or even really done anything other than give you examples why the idea is wrong. You honestly should just test the deck, if you don't believe all of the reasons so far. You'll understand it much quicker.

hamster
09-26-2013, 06:40 PM
What? I don't even....I was being brutfully honest saying I don't know how Melira Pod works. I just had a crazy idea that I wanted to discuss beyond "it's bad" or "it's good". I have never said anything about people being emotional. Nor has I used it as an excuse to withdraw from an argument.

I mean 4 mana to block a delver? I mean c'mon that means that Lingering Souls is the worst card ever printed. And Remand and Condescend out of G/R Tron? And Deathrite Shaman with an active Township being scary?

I'm... I mean.... I don't even... I....

Never mind

Let's move on. There's no more discussion here.

Phoenix Ignition
09-26-2013, 10:23 PM
I mean 4 mana to block a delver? I mean c'mon that means that Lingering Souls is the worst card ever printed. And Remand and Condescend out of G/R Tron? And Deathrite Shaman with an active Township being scary?
Even using a smaller view of Lingering souls, it still is better than Hawks. 5 mana, resolve 2 spells, get 4 1/1s. Hawks is "resolve 4 spells, pay 8 mana, get 4 1/1s"


I'm... I mean.... I don't even... I....

Never mind

Let's move on. There's no more discussion here.
Instead of trying the deck out or engaging the arguments for why what I say is bad, you say stuff like this. That's exactly what I mean. Why are you just assuming other people's tones?

I've argued pretty much every situation and laid out how your initial assumptions are incorrect. If you want to just disregard it that's up to you. If you want to disregard it and not even test out the deck, that's also up to you.