MonoBlue Belcher

[alphastryk]

So I picked up a sweet mono-blue Goblin Charbelcher list from Twitter a while back, right around when the legend rule changed, and have been messing around with it on and off. It definitely doesn't seem to be quite right, but it is definitely very powerful and a ton of fun to play. I haven't been able to find a thread on the deck anywhere, so I figured I might as well go ahead and start one here.

-----
Current decklist:


1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
4 Expedition Map
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
4 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation


Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


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the rest of my original post:
--

Here's the decklist I got originally:

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Voltaic Key
4 Expedition Map
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
4 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Steel Sabotage


I think it's a good start, but there are some obvious things I think need changes:
- If you are not able to belch them (Needle, Revoker, etc), you have no alternate plan, just anti-hate. It doesn't seem too hard to sneak in another tinker target or a storm kill of some kind
- Leyline of the void is unneeded, you can usually just race dredge
- No ponder seems suspect, as it almost definitely is better than preordain #4 even if there is no other cut.
- As expected, the shops matchup is horrendous. Fortunately, dredge and blue matchups are pretty good, so you can afford to devote a ton of cards to beat them. Ancient Tomb helps with mana denial, and even if you miss with belcher you can re-fire it with Voltaic Key and / or just use it to shoot down Golems and other men until you are ready to go to the face. Leyline of Anticipation helps you still be in the game when you are on the draw - just dump all your mana in response to the first taxing effect they play (or if you get lucky, just kill them in their upkeep on turn 1).

Here's my attempted update:

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Voltaic Key
4 Expedition Map
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
4 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Brainfreeze
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Steel Sabotage


I'm not sold on the cunning wish plan, and it might just be better to put the robot main, but it gives a few more options than anything else I've tried yet.

[nedleeds]

You know we were bouncing alternative Tinker target ideas ... with 2-3 Pacts maybe just play Platinum Angel. Some decks are raw to it, you can just absorb beats until you can reload a hand ... maybe you beat them down for 4 a turn.

[alphastryk]

That actually seems pretty reasonable, and if you draw it you might just be able to cast it if you fizzle. Only decks with StP are likely to be able to interact with it.

It also might actually be a real plan to just board in a pile of giant dudes against men and shops anyways, like 4 Wurmcoils and a Batterskull or two.

[deadend]

i did try this deck in ws but i cut the 3 Preordain for 3 treasure hunts to draw a huge amount of cards if not the whole deck for some very crazy turn 1 wins

[Koby]

i did try this deck in ws but i cut the 3 Preordain for 3 treasure hunts to draw a huge amount of cards if not the whole deck for some very crazy turn 1 wins

Well done sir, you broke the format.

[deadend]

Well done sir, you broke the format.

hmmm is sarcasm really needed i was just saying i made a little change of the mb and didn't see why he wasn't running this him self

[adamliniscus]

i did try this deck in ws but i cut the 3 Preordain for 3 treasure hunts to draw a huge amount of cards if not the whole deck for some very crazy turn 1 wins

Treasure Hunt will never draw more than two cards in this deck.


Well done sir, you broke the format.

4 Treasure Hunt in a 43lands deck with a Mana Severance/Belcher kill. It's gonna change the whole metagame.

[adamliniscus]

On a more serious note, is this deck above playing Lotus Petal and Time Walk?

[deadend]

Treasure Hunt will never draw more than two cards in this deck.



4 Treasure Hunt in a 43lands deck with a Mana Severance/Belcher kill. It's gonna change the whole metagame.

wow omg so sorry totally miss read hunt >< been up for 22hrs when put that up my bad

[alphastryk]

On a more serious note, is this deck above playing Lotus Petal and Time Walk?

There's definitely supposed to be a petal in there, I'll check when I get home to see what I missed. Probably pact #3 from the original list / pact #2 from mine.

I'm not convinced time walk actually accomplishes much in this deck.

[Pox22]

Would Time Vault be better than Platinum Angel as a Tinker target, as it gives you free wins with you already running Voltaic Keys?

[alphastryk]

Would Time Vault be better than Platinum Angel as a Tinker target, as it gives you free wins with you already running Voltaic Keys?

It actually doesn't give us free wins, since we can still only kill with Belcher. Unless you meant as a way to find belcher to win?

The issue isn't belching, the issue is dealing with situations where belching is not possible (revoker, pithing needle, etc).

[Koby]

Would Time Vault be better than Platinum Angel as a Tinker target, as it gives you free wins with you already running Voltaic Keys?

I suspect Platinum Angel is included to play well with Pact of Negation. Giving yourself more turns means you have to pay :3::u::u: sooner, and possibly still lose.

[Pox22]

Infinite turns doesn't win you the game? You just keep taking turns and sculpting a hand/board that wins with belcher. Seems simple to me. And your deck should already be running bounce in the form of Chain of Vapor/Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild to deal with Needle, Revoker, Chalice, Null Rod, Stony Silence, etc. Tinker or mise into the combo, sculpt into bounce and Charbelcher. It just gives you another angle of attack that wins for very little risk and investment.

Going all-in on a fragile 4/4 flyer just so your pacts don't kill you seems loose. I'd rather play something that wins, rather than something that makes me not lose.

[phazonmutant]

Alphastryk, I remember you mentioning at DC that you had some sweet updates to the sideboard. What's your current list?

[alphastryk]

Alphastryk, I remember you mentioning at DC that you had some sweet updates to the sideboard. What's your current list?

Yeah, picked up some sweet tech from a guy I saw playing it at Eternal Weekend. I was also way wrong on Time Vault, and it should definitely be included. Here's where I'm at now:


1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
4 Expedition Map
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
4 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
1 Pact of Negation


Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


I still want to get more pacts in there somewhere but I'm not sure where.

[Stan]

I'm looking to get into vintage. I've almost completed my P9 (I will get those cards anyway, regardless of what I end up playing), and I also have a Time Vault. I still haven't decided on what deck I'll play exactly (nothing with Workshop, Drain or Bazaar, too expensive), and every choice you make means trading or buying additional cards. This deck looks sweet, the high end cards I'm still missing for it are Time Spirals, a LED and a Mox Opal. Is the deck good enough to go get those? It looks like a blast to play.

[alphastryk]

This deck is insanely fun, but probably not quite good enough due to the horrendous shops matchup.

[serenechaos]

I've been working on Legacy Blue Belcher for a long time now, and my friends and I have joked about porting it to Vintage (we play D7 Belcher in Vintage). I greatly approve of this deck. My suggestions would be to maindeck Leyline, run Windfall, run a BSC to Tinker into, and maindeck at least 2-3 Hurkyls. Hurkyl's is actually a ritual in this deck if you have a few mana rocks out, and in a build like this...you probably should have enough out to hit critical mass.

I also like the idea of all 4 maindeck Pacts. Seems like the best thing this deck has going for it is supreme anti-blue tech.

[alphastryk]

I've been working on Legacy Blue Belcher for a long time now, and my friends and I have joked about porting it to Vintage (we play D7 Belcher in Vintage). I greatly approve of this deck. My suggestions would be to maindeck Leyline, run Windfall, run a BSC to Tinker into, and maindeck at least 2-3 Hurkyls. Hurkyl's is actually a ritual in this deck if you have a few mana rocks out, and in a build like this...you probably should have enough out to hit critical mass.

I also like the idea of all 4 maindeck Pacts. Seems like the best thing this deck has going for it is supreme anti-blue tech.

I'd be glad to have someone else actively working on this.

I've tried having a robot main to tinker for, it never came up in about 30 game 1s so I decided to pass on it. Tinker for Jar or Belcher is usually good enough, and it can sometimes be a ritual by finding map -> academy.

Maindeck leylines take a lot of space. Maybe if you expect more shops that's a valid decision? I feel like I can't fit everything I want already.

I've considered Windfall but usually I don't feel constrained on draw-7s - the biggest constraint is Initial Mana Sources (IMS) and blue sources.

Maindeck hurkyls might be correct, but I don't know what to cut, the list is pretty tight as is.

I started with 2 pacts, but It's generally been the weakest card. Maybe it's better than force though, hard to tell - maybe worth testing that swap?

[sublime love]

Interesting...

[Mantis]

Very cool deck! Can you give pointers on sideboarding? How often do you fizzle or take more than 3 turns to win? I will likely chip in when I have something wortwhile to contribute, but the deck seems close to optimal.

[Stan]

Question: the Academy is the only land in the deck, how important is the untap effect from Time Spiral then? Time Reversal costs one less, but doesn't untap the one land in your deck.

[alphastryk]

Very cool deck! Can you give pointers on sideboarding? How often do you fizzle or take more than 3 turns to win? I will likely chip in when I have something wortwhile to contribute, but the deck seems close to optimal.

You basically only fizzle when you mulligan to 4 or less. It takes a lot of practice to recognize keep-able hands though.

Against blue control, usually I board in 1-2 hurykls 1-2 jace, but I'm not 100% on what is correct to take out. Usually I take out preordains but that could be wrong. If you see that they don't have needle / revoker you don't need to board at all, these are your good matchups

Against dredge it's mostly a race but you're faster and timetwister effects are amazing. watch out for discard and artifact removal.

The shops matchup is just miserable. You usually want to bring in 12-15 board cards on the draw (not sure if jace is correct), and 8-11 on the play (no leyline). Leyline lets you get going before they can sphere you out of the game, and tomb and hurkyls help you win long games. Remember you can belch men and not just opponents since you will have 5 lands in your deck - sometimes killing lodestone golem is more important that shooting your opponent for ~6. I usually take out all the counterspells and the weaker card draw (preordain, brainstorm), as well as desire since it is very hard to actually storm out.


Question: the Academy is the only land in the deck, how important is the untap effect from Time Spiral then? Time Reversal costs one less, but doesn't untap the one land in your deck.

Incredibly important. It usually nets mana since you can play out new artifacts you draw off spiral. Academy usually taps for 3-5 to cast spiral, then 10+ for the rest of the game. This is the most busted Academy deck I've ever played.

[Mantis]

I got some testing against mostly blue control decks. I often flooded out on Belchers and the Pact of Negation did nothing for me, I replaced them with 2 Sensei's Tops and Time Walk. Often times, I was restrained on cheap artifacts to help get online the Mox Opal and build Academy mana. Furthermore, if we end up in an attrition war where Expedition Map gets Misstepped and we are light on mana sources, Top really helps out. But I'm not entirely sure on Top though, more testing is required. The Time Walk is always good, it either pitches to FoW or helps you get an Academy untap after a draw 7. Other times, it just cycles.

[alphastryk]

Not quite sure how you're flooding on Belchers? Any hand that doesn't have enough mana to get started and a castable piece of business (belcher, tinker, vault+key, a draw-7) is a mulligan.

Pact isn't exciting but FoW isn't enough, and the drawback usually doesn't matter - you can easily pay or just belch with the trigger on the stack.

Top seems like it goes against the plan here - kill on turn 1-2. If you end up in an attrition war you've usually already lost, but just wait until you can play out belcher the hard way. They won't pressure you nearly enough for it to matter.

Can you give example hands / games to discuss?

[Mantis]

Goldfished some more and you are probably right. Very enjoyable deck, thanks for sharibg it. Unfortunately no vintage tourneys anywhere nearby anymore..

[phyrex1]

Why don't you guys run Serum Powder?

[phyrex1]

Treasure Hunt stops on the first NON-land, so this doesn't work for Belcher. You'll hit 1 card 99.99999% of the time.

[alphastryk]

Not to completely necro this thread, but I've still been working on this deck - and its gained more mainstream popularity. Diminishing Returns was a big pickup that probably should have been there from the beginning. Tezzeret the Seeker is also just extra 5-mana Belchers. Transmute Artifact can even be played as 6ish mana Belchers if needed.

I'm actually playing around with a version playing Land Grant (thanks to 'pomegrant' on twitch for the idea) to see if that helps the blue IMS problems the deck often has.

Here's where I'm at now, using the Land Grant package instead of Grim Monolith and all the Voltaic Keys:
Mana:
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
Business:
4 Diminishing Returns
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
Protection:
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mind's Desire
2 Mishra's Workshop
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Pact of Negation
4 Leyline of Anticipation
2 Defense Grid
2 Hurkyl's Recall

[alphastryk]

Normally I'd hate to double post, but they just printed another Timetwister. This deck with Day's Undoing is absurd. Its irritating not to be able to keep going that turn, but the density of draw-7s is too high for it to matter. Also, when you board in the Leylines the drawback doesn't exist - you literally just have 5 Timewisters! It might actually be reasonable to cut the protection, move Leylines main and just go completely all in? Is anybody else actively working on this?

I'm trying this out right now, and its absurd:

Mana:
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
Business:
4 Diminishing Returns
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
4 Day's Undoing
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
Protection:
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mind's Desire
2 Mishra's Workshop
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Pact of Negation
4 Leyline of Anticipation
2 Defense Grid
2 Hurkyl's Recall

[alphastryk]

Seems like I'm the only one still working on this, but its going pretty well. Latest iteration I'm trying an Oath board plan to combat men / shops which are the bad matchups right now.

Mana:
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
Business:
4 Diminishing Returns
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
4 Day's Undoing
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brianstorm
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
Protection:
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Pact of Negation
4 Oath of Druids
1 Blazing Archon
4 Leyline of Anticipation
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Forbidden Orchard


This is pretty rough, but it seems like the plan makes sense.

[deadlock]

Great evolution since vintage super league 2 with the Land Grants. Much better than Simian Spirit Guides. However I dont think that Days Undoing is that great in this deck, because we cannot control the opponents turn with that few protection spells. Other thing, have you considered Transmute Artifact? Its a silly card in Vintage i guess,

[alphastryk]

My theory with Day's Undoing is to maximize turn 1 timetwister effects, forcing my opponent to have a force or mulligan. Even if you don't do anything else turn 1, you're often so far ahead it doesn't matter. I could be wrong in the long run, but its been great so far.

I think I'd max out Tezzerets before I'd play Transmute just because its essentially a 5-mana belcher instead of Transmute's 6-mana belcher. Tezz is also the alternate wincon, so more of them might be reasonable.

[rxthexletter]

I am very excited to see some movement here on this thread! I have been messing with Mono U Belcher lately and have some similarities and differences in my build. here is what I am currently playing with:

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
2 Voltaic Key
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Expedition Map
1 Time Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Monolith
1 Memory Jar
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Mox Opal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
1 Time Spiral
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Day's Undoing
3 Leyline of Anticipation
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Leyline of Anticipation
SB: 1 Blightsteel Collossus
SB: 1 Day's Undoing
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 2 Mishra's Workshop
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 1 Dack Fayden

(yes that is a 61 card mainboard)

Day's Undoing has been one of my favorite changes to this deck!! Aggressively mulligan-ing has lead to consistent odds (in my favor) of achieving a Leyline of Anticipation and Twister effect in the opener with sufficient means to cast it.

By going all-in on the Twisters and bringing in the Leylines, it also allows for me to proudly state that Ponder and Preordain now under perform and have been replaced.

Honestly, being able to play with 5 Timetwisters is just BONKERS.

I have tested out the Diminishing Returns plan, however for me I always end up losing something rather important. Casting 2 more commonly put me into scoop mode for losing too many value cards with my bad luck

Leyline main also allows for less bad game one matchups by going off reactive style even if you are not on the play. There have been many times I have played a Day's Undoing on an opponents turn 1 with a Gitaxian probe on the stack, to keep a decent board presence to move to my turn and play Tolarian Academy and just win there.

Sure a Turn 1 Null rod stinks, but when you can intentionally refuel your hand until you can stop it, it is not so bad. (or just win in response! Which feels SO good)

The 1 Dack Fayden in the sideboard was because I needed a plan that would allow me to win by alternate means if it came up. However It has stayed in the board for a nice "what if" option. I have debated moving him to the main, but I do not want to dilute the plan. An alternative to him was noxious revival for easier redo's However I have not found myself needing a noxious as often, even though it has lead to some pretty funny dredge situations.

[jredelstein]

I like the Tinker for Platinum Angel plan main, since it is protected so well by Pact of Negation as pointed out earlier.

Is it worth running a couple Hurkyls Recall main? it acts as a ritual with all our artifact mana and gives us some more game vs MUD. Or could this deck benefit from Cunning Wish?

[Stan]

I ran this list back in April, before the new printings. I was pleased with it back then, but it may be out of date.

Tolarian Academy 1
Lotus Petal 1
Mox Pearl 1
Mox Sapphire 1
Mox Jet 1
Mox Ruby 1
Mox Emerald 1
Mox Opal 4
Chrome Mox 4
Mana crypt 1
Lion's Eye Diamond 1
Black Lotus 1
Candelabra of Tawnos 1
Voltaic Key 2
Expedition Map 4
Sol Ring 1
Mana Vault 1
Time Vault 1
Grim Monolith 2
Goblin Charbelcher 4
Pact of Negation 3
Mental Misstep 2
Ancestral Recall 1
Force of Will 4
Gitaxian Probe 4
Ponder 1
Preordain 4
Time Walk 1
Timetwister 1
Tinker 1
Diminishing Returns 2
Tezzeret the Seeker 2


SIDEBOARD
City of Traitors 2
Grafdigger's Cage 3
Grim Monolith 2
Defense Grid 2
Mental Misstep 1
Flusterstorm 2
Leyline of Anticipation 3

[warfordium]

not 'working' on this but fired up cockatrice for the first time in ages last night and took this for a spin.

and WHAT a spin. grabbed a pre-Day's Undoing list but will update it. deck goldfishes like a monster, its awesome.

[oSeabass]

not 'working' on this but fired up cockatrice for the first time in ages last night and took this for a spin.

and WHAT a spin. grabbed a pre-Day's Undoing list but will update it. deck goldfishes like a monster, its awesome.

I'd love to see an updated list for this. Please share :)

[maritlage]

Does any one have the list that was on coverage at vintage champs. I think it was Danny Batterman vs some one else.

[phyrex1]

I've been running the following list and love it. There are so many D7 effects it's just unreal. I have found Grim Monolith's value to decline as your quantity of D7 cards increase. It's far more important to hit U2 than 3. If your opponent isn't playing counterspells, playing this deck is about as lopsided as it gets. Even the MUD matchup is now strongly in my favor.

Oath is currently my worst matchup.

1 Tolarian Academy
4 Pact of Negation
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
3 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Grim Monolith
1 Time Walk
1 Time Vault
4 Day's Undoing
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Force of Will
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Desire

I would consider changing the 4th Chrome Mox to a 4th Mox Opal, if I had it, but I do feel 3 is the right number with so many D7. The weakest links, if you can believe it, are Lion's Eye Diamond, Memory Jar, Expedition Map #3, and Mind's Desire in that order. Tinker/Blightsteel are in the sideboard right now.

It's time to give the sideboard an overhaul.

[Koby]

What would happen if you added Gifts Ungiven into this deck to add more tutors and reduce Charbelchers down to 1? Why not play Tinker -> Belcher or Jar or Vault-Key?

[jarvisyu]

What would happen if you added Gifts Ungiven into this deck to add more tutors and reduce Charbelchers down to 1? Why not play Tinker -> Belcher or Jar or Vault-Key?

danny batterman was playing U/g belcher at vintage champs with living wish / land grant, and academy in the sb.

[phyrex1]

What would happen if you added Gifts Ungiven into this deck to add more tutors and reduce Charbelchers down to 1? Why not play Tinker -> Belcher or Jar or Vault-Key?

I can understand your reasoning for Tinker. I do not understand your thought process behind reducing Charbelcher to 1 copy. Would you please elaborate?

Also, with the addition of 4 D7's at U2, Jar is pretty overcosted.

I will consider Gifts piles and see if it merits playtesting. :)

[Koby]

I can understand your reasoning for Tinker. I do not understand your thought process behind reducing Charbelcher to 1 copy. Would you please elaborate?

Also, with the addition of 4 D7's at U2, Jar is pretty overcosted.

I will consider Gifts piles and see if it merits playtesting. :)

By keeping Tinker in the maindeck, you have a 5th Draw 7 for :2::u:. Also, if you ever just have Tinker + :3: mana, you win with Belcher too. Six mana would not be enough with Belcher alone. Now, I'm not sure how often those scenarios come up, but reducing Charbelcher and replacing it with tutors helps to meet that gap.

[phyrex1]

By keeping Tinker in the maindeck, you have a 5th Draw 7 for :2::u:. Also, if you ever just have Tinker + :3: mana, you win with Belcher too. Six mana would not be enough with Belcher alone. Now, I'm not sure how often those scenarios come up, but reducing Charbelcher and replacing it with tutors helps to meet that gap.

You have only mentioned Gifts in your tutors list, and Gifts allows you to pick up to four unique cards, of which, the opponent bins two.

So let's try this. What cards, up to four, do you pick? Create as many Gifts piles as you like. I'll bin two cards from each pile.

[Sloshthedark]

Played a Leyline Belcher at MKM Prague

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Timetwister
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
1 Tinker
4 Expedition Map
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Ponder
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Windfall
3 Pact of Negation
4 Day's Undoing
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time walk
1 Senseis Divining top (never drawn)
1 Mystical Tutor (irrelevant in goldfish, decent RL)


SB:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Mental Misstep
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Rebuild
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
3 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Blightsteel Colossus

first of all, I'm not a vintage player - I've gathered different lists, and goldfished phyrex1's list extensively - which resulted in these conclusions - absence of initial U mana is the major problem of the deck causing painful mulligans (despite that the goldfish was at 2,1T / 6,15 cards / 9% fizzle of game going T4+ ), key+vault is clunky and unimpressive, once 2U is assembled the deck is king of the world... which resulted into cutting key vault, tezzeret and monolith(s) in favor of maxing out on mana sources, small testing session before the event confirmed my suspision the deck is incredibly powerful and fun to play with as I 7:0 my friends after 2 games lost to mulligans vs. mono counter hands of theirs... before the tournament for the fisrt time in my life I had more SB slots than cards I wanted to put in so it contains fillers I never used, Mystical Tutor and SDT are last minute inclusions from a group of Brainstorm, Rebuild (mainly as a "ritual" fx), Mystical tutor and SDT

R1 - Doomsday 2:1
G1 mull into unimpressive 4, dead T3
G2 the games blur together, a T1/T2 kill just before he's about to kill me including some leyline action and Lotus/LED topdecks in one game or the other
G3 the games blur together, a T1/T2 kill just before he's about to kill me including some leyline action and Lotus/LED topdecks in one game or the other


R2 - pseudo-Mirror 1:2
I have a suspision, my R1 was very fast, i was scouting a bit but haven't seen this guy
G1 he starts, goes for T1 Belcher and I Fow, my T2 is more succesful
G2 the most ridiculous game possible... - I start with some upkeep action due to Leyline, he plays out his mana and maybe I Fow something, I have a T1 Belcher, he BSes into the nuts T2 - Tezzeret+Belcher+Activation ... the countdown is a thriller and just when the light dies for me and I'm about to pack my cards he reveals Academy - 16, 1 short of killing me... in my upkeep in resp. to Crypt trigger I activate my Belcher... do I have to say what is my 20th card?
G3 I keep a leyline 7 with double counter mox and bussiness but without U source, he goes to 5 and has 2 mox imprints at one point he tries a Jar - despite having the advantage of leyline I'm an idiot and Trap it, I cant find an U source while my Opp has a string of preordains at the end I have to FoW an Ancestral and his last card is obv. Belcher... my last draw doesn't help me and the Belcher does not whiff this time...

very friendly person and a game hard not to remember

R3 Dredge 2:0
I know what he's on
G1 I'm mono mana and Preordain which offers nothing, I topdeck into some action, twist and kill him
G2 his double Bazaar < instant twisters

R4 Shops 0:2
Opp wins the roll, I know what he's on...
G1 and I'm not the only one... he tells me a friend told him about a Belcher guy with my shirt... I have a potential T1 academy-> Twister I upkeep GP, he has double Shop, Golem, Thorn, Revoker, Pearl, Sphere.. correctly starts with a Thorn, to which I have to play all my Moxen, cantrip -> Map, which gets revokered, I'm a mana short off the Twister until 2 more Spheres and a Golem hit the field when I Twister for 6U off Lotus, I have to hit Academy+Belcher exactly, doesn't happen
G2 criminal mistake again - I have a T1 Belcher off Academy (as realized later it wasnt needed to be searched for), get the Academy Striped and CotV 0, I have no U source and never will =dead ... some turn later I find out his hand contained also a Ratched bomb but he could't recall if it was in the opener or not... so I'll never know...

R5 Oath 1:2
G1 leyline action gets Missteped +Fow into T2-3 Oath ->draw 21
G2 leyline again, some instant cantriping, I play a Mox -> in resp Stripmine ->in resp Twister -> in resp Grudge ->in resp Twister -> in resp double Fow proof Belcher
G3 I see his hand which has Grudge, Mox, BS, Dack but no R available -> T1 Tinker for Belcher (Fow his BS) instead of Jar (another mistake, I really underestimate the Jar) he topdecks a fetch and I'm never in the game...

R6 Tezzeret 2:1
G1 - he starts with some fast mana and takes my T2 instead of me, in fact all of them
G2 - T1 some action into Opp upkeep Twister, which gains a 0 lander to my Opponent, my turn Academy -> eot Twister gives me an instant win, literaly
G3 - Opp mulls into oblivion, I upkeep some stuff again, Fow a T2 Thirst and decide to draw him a 7 a turn or 2 after eot, after some cantriping a tripple Fow proof Belcher ends the tournament...

at first sight an unimpressive 3-3 but the deck felt awesome and I can attribute my losses only to my mistakes, inexpierience with the real game dynamics of the deck and Vintage in overall

[H]

Glad to see you got yourself in on some Vintage action. It's definitely my favorite format, by far.

Thing about Belcher is that, in my experience, you are not very well favored against most Blue strategies and very cold versus Workshops. I don't think it is very well suited to the Vintage meta-game. That said, with Thirst unrestricted, I think there is more play in this deck than previously. Did you try it with some number of Thirst?

[Sloshthedark]

Glad to see you got yourself in on some Vintage action. It's definitely my favorite format, by far.

Thing about Belcher is that, in my experience, you are not very well favored against most Blue strategies and very cold versus Workshops. I don't think it is very well suited to the Vintage meta-game. That said, with Thirst unrestricted, I think there is more play in this deck than previously. Did you try it with some number of Thirst?

I get to play once/twice a year and I love it, unfortunately the Power train has left the station years ago for me...

i did not have that feeling, I think the deck has enough bombs to overwhelm an U deck once it has mana available, the Shops MU is not great but better with CotV restriction, when the deck felt miserable was it's own incosistency on reaching initial U // why draw 3(2) when you can draw 7?

[phyrex1]

first of all, I'm not a vintage player - I've gathered different lists, and goldfished phyrex1's list extensively - which resulted in these conclusions - absence of initial U mana is the major problem of the deck causing painful mulligans (despite that the goldfish was at 2,1T / 6,15 cards / 9% fizzle of game going T4+ ), key+vault is clunky and unimpressive, once 2U is assembled the deck is king of the world... which resulted into cutting key vault, tezzeret and monolith(s) in favor of maxing out on mana sources, small testing session before the event confirmed my suspision the deck is incredibly powerful and fun to play with as I 7:0 my friends after 2 games lost to mulligans vs. mono counter hands of theirs... before the tournament for the fisrt time in my life I had more SB slots than cards I wanted to put in so it contains fillers I never used, Mystical Tutor and SDT are last minute inclusions from a group of Brainstorm, Rebuild (mainly as a "ritual" fx), Mystical tutor and SDT

I think these filler cards should be a combination of Grim Monoliths and Voltaic Keys. The additional mana, while not blue, lends to the deck's explosive potential. I would also consider one Crucible of the Worlds in the sideboard vs Wasteland decks. Your Academy becomes a repeatable blue ritual.

Thank you for giving my build a shot and run through! I'm pleased with your results and analysis. Vintage is a beast, but it is, by far, the most fun format of Magic. (And aside from power, the least expensive!)

Quick Edit: Playing against the mirror matchup, it may be prudent to play your spells at the end of your opponent's turn rather than upkeep. I mention this because most Mono-U Charbelcher decks run Mind's Desire, and you may, unknowingly, add to your opponent's Storm count.


Glad to see you got yourself in on some Vintage action. It's definitely my favorite format, by far.

Thing about Belcher is that, in my experience, you are not very well favored against most Blue strategies and very cold versus Workshops. I don't think it is very well suited to the Vintage meta-game. That said, with Thirst unrestricted, I think there is more play in this deck than previously. Did you try it with some number of Thirst?

Starting the game with Leyline and possibly being able to win on T1 upkeep makes the Workshop matchup much more in our favor than not now, especially with the restriction of Chalice of the Void. Workshop hinges on eliminating its opponent's plays by preventing the opponent from playing artifact based mana. If you get the mana down first, you can usually fight through the early onslaught to secure the victory.

But test it for yourself, and add the results to the sample set. A larger sample set is better. Let the data speak.

[gRR!!]

Hey there folks,

In the last Catalan Vintage League (38 players, powered, non-proxied metagame, 6 Swiss rounds), I’ve 4-2’d, finishing 11th, with a build with a lower number of Draw 7s and 4 Thirst for Knowledges instead. My losses were 0-2 against Bomberman (he had double FoW for my FoW+Pact game 1, and I fizzled game 2 after turn 1 Gitaxian+Preordain+Thirst for Knowledge), and 1-2 against Gifts Control (if I recall correctly, I won easily game 1, and then I kept weak hands in games 2 and 3 so he didn’t have so much trouble in finishing me off). I won versus UR Delver twice (2-0 and 2-1, this one involving a really epic mulligan to 4 for my part), 2-1 versus GWB Hatebears and 2-0 vs Mono Blue Control (who kept a hand of triple FoW with no mana on game 2!). I managed to dodge the plague of MUDs that were swarming the tournament.

For reference, here’s the list I’ve played:

Maindeck:
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
3 Chrome Mox
4 Expedition Map
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sol Ring
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
2 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:
2 Mishra's Workshop
3 Defense Grid
2 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Leyline of Anticipation
3 Mental Misstep
1 Rebuild

I’ve decided to play Academy Belcher because the new mulligan rule and the restriction of Chalice of the Void are both factors that should make life easier for brave Belcher players. About Draw 7’s, I’ve never been too convinced that they belong to this deck; his cost is way too high (especially in the first couple of turns, precisely when the deck wants to win the game), and the perspective of giving a new seven to my opponent doesn’t make me happy. So the unrestriction of TfK gives the deck a new and powerful tool; more when usually we will have some artifacts in hand that we won’t need (extra Expedition Maps, Chrome Moxen without any card to imprint, etc).

I’m overall satisfied with this decklist. I feel that maybe some Dismember in the side would be useful against annoying creatures like hatebears or Meddling Mage (a real pain in the ass). I’ve never played against Workshops yet, so I’m not sure about how will work our 2 own Workshops or the Leyines of Anticipation. Fortunately, Chalices are gone, and Golem doesn’t hurt us that much, so the threats are “only” the Spheres/Thorns and the Null Rods, which obviously are absolutely devastating. Another problem is always Mental Misstep, but we have our Gitaxian Probes, so we can gather information about the opponent’s hand (and we can always try to bait him to Misstep the wrong threat). Plus we have our own Missteps in the sideboard, though if I include Dismembers, probably Missteps will have to go.

Thoughts?

[DarleneEngland]

give us more!!!11