UB Delver and Grixis Delver

[Illusions]

Hey guys, thought I would post a list I've been working on. It's a port of a deck I run in legacy, though without the land hate. I replaced the TNN with Kira to make things harder to interact with, and hopefully make the deck a bit more resilient.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Tombstalker

4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
2 Countersquall

3 Shadow of Doubt

2 Dismember
2 Disfigure
2 Geth's Verdict

20 lands, including 3 Creeping Tar-pit


The idea here is to disrupt your opponent as hard as you possibly can. Shadow of doubt probably seems like a bit of an odd inclusion, but it hoses pod, scapeshift and tron, and at the very worst is still the front end of a think twice. If you catch an opponent fetching early game with it, it's a crazy tempo swing, and is pretty easy to do if you're on the play. Even better, if you drop a first turn DRS, you can still develop your board with a delver, and hammer their mana at the same time. Most of the other stuff is pretty straight forward. Sometimes you need an edict, disfigure is for bobs and DRS, and dismember is targeted removal that will often hit a goyf, and can be cast with any colour if need be. You have Kira to act as an evasive beater that demands nothing less than abrupt decay (which is under played right now), or 2 removal spells. Even then, you still have countersquall as a hard counter for removal, with a bit of sting attached. Casting Delver or tombstalker into a Kira is just... well, you get the idea. Not to mention, every single threat in this deck is evasive. Tar-pits let you get in for those extra points of damage when you're controlling your opponent, but all of your threats have either been removed, or are stuck in your deck, or when you need to put the screw to your opponent and close things out. Only being 2 colours means the deck rarely has trouble with mana, and barring unusual draws like 2 tar-pits, it gets into the game very quickly.

The major problems are things like planeswalkers, which means you need something like Hero's Downfall in the board. Also, sometimes remand is a bit of a do-nothing spell, though it will often draw you into another answer. Chaining remands is also pretty funny.

I've also been tinkering with a grixis version of the same list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Tombstalker

4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
2 Countersquall
2 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
2 Dismember

20 Lands (2 Creeping Tar-pit)


I think the grixis version has the potential to be more ridiculous, but the mana base makes things difficult. You're essentially lightning bolting yourself down to 14 or so life just to get your colours online, the alternative being to sacrifice your speed advantage. That said, I think there are lot of cool synergies as well; izzet charm is always good, and can be used as emergency removal, a soft counter, or as a means to fill up your yard for an early tombstalker. Rune snag is the most underplayed counter in the format, and is the only 2 mana counter that can remain relevant into the late game. It's also very good with izzet charm. Bolts can take care of Lili, or give you additional reach. Electrolyze is extra removal that puts you a card ahead, or additional reach. The shaky mana base means that you can't really run too many tar-pits, though this is compensated for by the additional reach of bolt.

Let me know what you guys think of the decks! I think I'll be sticking with the UB version for now, since it seems a bit faster and more consistent in testing.

Cheers!

[YamiJoey]

Mana Leak is better than Rune Snag. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise, especially when you are making it worse yourself.

I basically think that you should be playing a few more Lands, and using Snapcaster Mage. Snap + SoD is too good in tempo.

Also Vendilion Clique is the best Creature in Modern. X/1 is kind of awkward, but it's still a beast.

[chariot1995]

counterspell is also not legal in modern

[YamiJoey]

counterspell is also not legal in modern

Yeah. Neither's Stoneforge Mystic...

[SirTylerGalt]

Yeah. Neither's Stoneforge Mystic...

I think he misread Countersquall :) I've always wanted to play this card in Legacy, but it's hard to find a deck where it would be better than Spell Pierce / Counterspell...

[YamiJoey]

Sounds about right.

Given the low land count, I'm not sure it's better than Spell Pierce. Two mana seems expensive for protecting threats that cost the same or less than that.

[Illusions]

20 lands is fine, Hoogland's UR delver plays 22 and has a higher curve than this deck does. Not to mention, the list I posted has far more cantrips than Hoogland's. The Alan Comer rule of thumb for the number of lands in a deck is that a playset of 1 mana cantrips is worth around 1.5 to 2 lands; this deck packs 2 playsets, and shouldn't have any trouble finding its resources. Not to mention, this isn't legacy, so your lands are likely to stick around. Statistically, 25% of games will have less than 3 lands in your opening hand (assuming a mull to 6); however, with DRS and cantrips, this really isn't a problem. Even a one lander with a DRS and fetch, or a few cantrips, is a solid keep. I really haven't had many problems with the lands at all in the UB list, and it's only difficult in the grixis one because of the awkwardness of shocks eating away your health. For the record, you really need 8-9 fetches with this kind of list.

Rune snag is better than mana leak in a list without snapcaster, especially if you expect the game to go long. There really isn't huge difference between the two in the early game. If a tombstalker hits, you choose what to exile, so you can leave rune snag in the yard. If it comes down early enough that you need to exile a rune snag or two, you're already winning. Not to mention the card is better than mana leak in a discard heavy format, and is more effective than leak in the late game (which we want, since our counters are protecting our threats). I prefer countersquall to spell pierce in modern, because modern doesn't have enough land destruction to keep pierce relevant in the late game. It's only ever used for countering removal and the odd planeswalker, and loses relevance faster than any other counter in the format due to the low cost of removal spells. Are you really going to spell pierce a bolt or a path on turn 3 or 4? Countersquall always stays relevant, and punishes your opponent. It can even target abrupt decay for an extra 2 damage if you really need it (though the counter will still fail).

As for snaps, he doesn't really belong in a list like this. Using snapcaster to flashback SoD isn't a very good tempo play; you're spending 4 mana and getting a weak threat that won't close the game out for you, to deny your opponent one land. If they're searching their library for a win condition, you could have used that 4 mana to land a tombstalker or a kira, activate DRS, and put more pressure on your opponent in the earlier stages of the game. Not to mention, snaps secretly costs 3+ mana, and would be difficult to support with this mana base. What do you take out for him? I wouldn't pull spells, because then you start messing with delver flips, and if you pull out creatures, you lose pressure. He's great in midrangey control lists that want card advantage, but not in an old school tempo list. Tempo decks rely on time advantage and efficiency, not card advantage.

[YamiJoey]

4 DRS and 2 Tombstalker make Rune Snag strictly worse, and there are plenty of main-decked Graveyard hate Spells going around. DRS and Scooze eating up your Snags, and Relic keeping your Graveyard at zero until allowing everything to Rest in Peace is something that is going to happen.

The problem with the 'cantrips over Lands' thing is that they are inherantly bad cantrips. They are sorcery speed, and don't allow for very good card selection. Visions is arguably one of the worst 1-mana Cantrips that people play, and Sleight of Hand doesn't set Delver up at all.

This is basically why I opt never to play Delver in Modern. You play bad cards to make a 1-mana 3/2, that actually becomes a 2-mana 3/2, and without Pierce is difficult to protect. Pierce is a staple in Tempo as far as I'm concerned. 1-mana stop your thing is too good. T1 Delver, T2 Cantrip, Counter Liliana, or any given Spell. Not having access to that play leaves you dead on the spot.

I just don't see what this deck offers that it didn't have when I tried it about a year ago. No new cards, and the meta seems actually scarier, with Splinter Twin becoming more popular. It's probably a Bye against Living End, as a single Remand would basically seal the deal against that abomination of a deck. (How the fuck is that thing making T8's?)

Tron seems bad, as you need to counter every play they make, and then they just land a Wurmcoil Engine and your day is over. BGx seems bad thanks to uncounterable removal and stuff like Deathrite Shaman and Scooze making Tombstalker bad, and UWR has plenty of cheap removal, as well as lifegain and a tonne of must-counter Spells furyher up the curve, as well as uncounterable Wraths in G2/3.

[Quasim0ff]

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

3x Inqusition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
4x Serum Visions

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Electrolyze
1x Cryptic Command
2x Mana Leak
1x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Izzet Charm
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Some Counterspell/Some utility spell/Something for your local metagame. I run with +1 Electrolyze/1 Shadow of Doubt/1x Dismember usually. In the past, when pod was everywhere I ran with 1x Electrylyze/1x Pillar of Flame (and I even, for a time, had 3x Electrolyze and 0 Cryptic Command in the deck at all.)

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Breeding Pool
1x Watery Grave
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp

SB:
2x Jace Beleren
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Spellskite
1x Geth's Verdict
1x Devour Flesh
2x Anceint Grudge

(I also run 2x Abrupt Decay)
rest of the SB is up for customization.

Currently the best Delver deck in the format.


*@SoFaF: It can also be Sword of Fire and Ice depending, again, on your meta.

My meta is currently a lot of BGx decks. The plan is NOT to just deploy it t2/t3, but often hold as your late-game win condition together with Tar Pit.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

I played UB delver on Friday. 3-0-1 in rounds and lost in top 4 (to a Jund player which I beat in round 2). Heres my list, my meta is also VERY creature heavy so thats where alot of the removal comes in.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Desecration Demon

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smother
3 Geths Verdict
2 Disfigure
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Creeping Tar pit
6 Swamp
1 Island



Dark Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets: These 3 go hand in hand. They are the bread and butter of ANY delver deck. Deathrite Shaman should also be in this I am currently fitting him in.

Desecration Demon: Holy Crap this guy did work, with Liliana and the creature removal, this guy most certainy swung 80% of the time, He's big and exactly what this type of deck needs, he sticks around dodging Smother/Abrupt Decay. He narrowly escapes Dismember. He's a monster. 2 might be the right number, might try to go to 3.


Thoughtsieze, IoK: Hand Disruption is the best when you can T1 Seize their first play or grab that board wipe you see coming, gets better with surgical extraction on the board, T1: Swamp, Thoughtseize, Surgical, GET IT OUTTA HERE.

Creature Removal: Modern is a fast format. Smother and Disfigure take care of most of the threats: Tarmogoyf, Snapcasters, Delver, Confidants, anything White and weenie.

Geth's Verdict: Kill everything. Make Geth do the hard work on that big guy after he's the only one left, I like it against Progenitus (oh yeah he sees play) Emrakul, and anything else your other removal can't deal with. These will become Hero's Downfall with the addition of 3 more Lilianas.


Counter spells: Spell Snare counters EVERYTHING nasty in the format, It loves you, you love it. Play them! Spell Pierce takes care of those pesky counter spells that everyone wants to tap out for, and those board wipes when you just cant afford to lose. Sure tap all your mana for WoG or Damnation, this little island over here? Just ruined your Turn 4. Mana Leak, better than Rune snag when Tiago (Snapcaster Mage) is in the building. Mana Leak does become worse as the game goes on. But like I said Moderns a fast format.

Liliana of the Veil: Nasty. She will single handedly win you games you probably shouldn't have won. She slows down aggro, and can hurt control with no way to deal with her. MUST be a 4 of (I only own 1 ). Every time she hit the table the opponent died inside.


Creeping Tar Pit: The only land we gotta talk about. this guy is awesome, unblockable, can carry a sword (if you play them, carried Runechanter's Pike in earlier versions) gotta play em. I think 3 is the magic number.

[YamiJoey]

Any reason you're playing Desecration Demon over Tombstalker? I get that it's slightly bigger and slightly less risky with Bob, but Tombstalker is a 5/5 Flyer, whereas Desecration Demon is mostly worse than Tarmogoyf.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Desecration Demon is a 6/6 flyer that doesn't hurt your Snapcaster Mage by taking ammo away from him. Once Deathrite Shaman enters the picture Tombstalker will become even more terrible taking ammo from both of them. Desecration Demon also dodges Dismember whereas Tombstalker, after investing ammo for shaman and Tiago, paying lets say 4, is just an expensive Tormod's crypt when they pay 4 life and dismember it.

[monovfox]

needs more Young Pyromancer.

[Illusions]

I've been saying this a bit lately, but YP and bob don't have much place in a tempo deck. Snapcaster is debatable since he makes strong tempo plays, but he doesn't really do any of the things that a tempo deck wants to do. Primarily, you want pressure, backed up with disruption. At any given time, you may only have one or two threats on the board, so they need to be capable of closing out the game by themselves, and they need to be able to do it quickly. YP and bob actually sacrifice tempo for card advantage, which is detrimental to the deck. In addition to this, they don't present an immediate clock, and are incredibly fragile. Your counter spells are precious, and ideally, you want to spend as few of your resources protecting your threats as possible. Bob and YP demand a lot of protection, since they are easy to remove, and take several turns before they start winning the game. The reason desecration demon is good in your deck is because he's doing what the deck wants to do; i.e. put the opponent under immense pressure, and force them to deal with a game-ending threat through a wall of countermagic. Even better, he's big enough that he restricts the number of answers your opponent actually has, so you only need to counter 1 or 2 live spells, rather than every single removal spell in their deck.

Desecration demon is all well and good, but generally tombstalker will be better, because he's cheaper, and can't be tapped by your opponent. IMO, you should take the bobs out, because DRS is what you actually want. He's easy to remove, but he accelerates you a turn in the early game, makes you resilient to land hate, mana fixes, and helps you push through the conditional counters in the format. All of this is on top of the fact that he provides reach in the late game, which is significant when you back it up with burn. He also demands an actual removal spell thanks to his two toughness, meaning at worst, your opponent will often spend their first turn responding to your DRS at the risk of losing. Sometimes you'll eat spells in your graveyard, but more often than not, you use your opponent's graveyard, and I can honestly say it's never been a problem running DRS alongside tombstalker in legacy. Team America does it, and is one of the strongest decks in the format at the moment. In fact, to make my point clearer, Team America generally doesn't run bob any more, as evidenced by lists like this one (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12373&iddeck=90669) that are pretty standard nowadays. Card advantage is awesome, but it's never been as good as winning the game.

Also, 22 instants and sorceries is nowhere near enough for delver. You have a 35% chance of flipping him (roughly), which means in over 40% of games, he'll sit there for 2 turns being a 1/1 and doing nothing. I run 29 instants and sorceries in my legacy deck, and 25% of the time he doesn't flip. Even then, it's noticeable enough that I'll often burn a brainstorm or ponder to ensure he flips so that I can start doing work.

I stand by rune snag, though spell snare probably has a place in the deck. I feel that spell pierce just isn't good enough in modern. It's dead by the third turn, and you'd need to include a playset to have around a 15% chance of having both a delver and spell pierce in hand on the play. That's close to 1 in 7 games that it'll actually be decent. The main modification I would make to the grixis list I posted would be to cut a sleight of hand to go up to the full four lightning bolts. The Kira's could also be snapcaster mages, though I think Kira is a bit closer to what we want to be doing (hitting in the air, making everything extremely difficult to kill). I've also thought about playing with the counter package a bit to include a few spell snares and pierces in place of the rune snags, but it'll have to wait until I get a chance to do some more testing.

[Mr. Safety]

With modern's mana base and dark confidant available, how is it that Death's Shadow is not the primary threat being discussed alongside delver? Genuinely curious...

[Borealis]

Death's Shadow is a cool card, but it demands to be built around. In Grixis Delver, you want resilient, cheap, and consistent threats. Just because Deaths Shadow is sometimes a Wild Nacatl or better does not make it great all the time. Often it will simply be a dead card until its far too late to matter. That's unacceptable for a Grindy permission deck like Grixis.

Deaths Shadow shines in a deck with a puke of phyrexian mana and cards like Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Outside of that type of deck, it's just not going to "turn on" often enough. Furthermore, going suicidal with you Bobs and Shocks has some serious pitfalls. Deaths Shadow isn't worth it unless you go all in, and even then it hasn't really seen much success. Bob, Delver, Pyromancer, and Tombstalker are way more reliable and far less risky.

[Borealis]

HA. "Puke". I meant "ton", but puke sounds just as good. "In game 3, I drew a puke of Bolts and Delvers and just ran him over." :)

[Mr. Safety]

Death's Shadow is a cool card, but it demands to be built around. In Grixis Delver, you want resilient, cheap, and consistent threats. Just because Deaths Shadow is sometimes a Wild Nacatl or better does not make it great all the time. Often it will simply be a dead card until its far too late to matter. That's unacceptable for a Grindy permission deck like Grixis.

Deaths Shadow shines in a deck with a puke of phyrexian mana and cards like Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Outside of that type of deck, it's just not going to "turn on" often enough. Furthermore, going suicidal with you Bobs and Shocks has some serious pitfalls. Deaths Shadow isn't worth it unless you go all in, and even then it hasn't really seen much success. Bob, Delver, Pyromancer, and Tombstalker are way more reliable and far less risky.

I misunderstood the deck really. I thought this was an attempt to be a true tempo deck and *not* a grindy permission deck. Delver tends to lend itself to faster tempo builds in general. If you're looking for a grindy Grixis deck, wouldn't a deck with Cruel Ultimatum be a much better focus?

[YamiJoey]

Death's Shadow is not a fast Creature. You're playing it on T3 as a 3/3 for 1 if your Lands come up well or you cast a Phymana Spell. That's not early when they can untap and have you dead.

[trevaftw]

He's not a fast creature, rather he is a finisher so you run him as a 2 of that once you get to
the late game you move in for the kill

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[DDS5]

Is there an updated list from all this conversation. I like the concept.

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[Illusions]

Is there an updated list from all this conversation. I like the concept.

Try:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tombstalker

4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand

4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
2 Countersquall

2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
2 Dismember

2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Watery Grave
3 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island


You can switch out mana leak for rune snag if you like, and I prefer Kira, Great Glass-Spinner to snapcaster mage, since she invalidates our opponent's removal. You could also go for 2 Spell Snare, 4 Spell Pierce instead of the 4 mana leak, and 2 countersqualls, though I like countersquall because it makes your opponent think twice about casting removal, and supports your bolts well. Izzet charm and the removal package should stay, with shattering spree in the side for affinity and tron.

You don't want to go above 20 lands, and you don't want any more creatures than this. As is, we have 27 instants and sorceries to flip delver, which is the bare minimum I would go to. You also don't want dark confidant, or young pyromancer, since they don't fit the overall strategy of the deck. We don't particularly care about card advantage, only velocity, and putting our opponent on a clock. Bob and YP sacrifice tempo for card advantage, whereas we should be willing to sacrifice card advantage for immediate tempo and victory. Bob and YP do nothing to beat the opponent to death, and reduce the overall number of threats. In addition to this, they require a ton of protection, which we can't really afford to waste on creatures that aren't immediately winning the game for us. Case in point, there is no tier 1 delver deck in legacy that runs dark confidant (not even team america), and older builds that did run dark confidant have given way to more powerful decks that run DRS and tombstalker. This is exactly what we want to be doing.

[DDS5]

See I just wanted the list. But thank you for your additional information

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[YamiJoey]

He's not a fast creature, rather he is a finisher so you run him as a 2 of that once you get to
the late game you move in for the kill

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So why are you playing a situational card that requires a low life total over something like Tombstalker, Goyf, or whatever?

[DDS5]

One of my main issues with the list above is that there is no discard. Which is some times the best way to improve your odds of wining match ups

The last matches I played with this list.(Tron,Scapeshift,U/r twin,Uwr twin, Uwr control, Jund, B/g "rock" )

Deathrite was okay but normally if it was active I had the tombstalker stranded in my hand.

Also side note has anyone thought about Jace AOT in the mix to test it in a Grixis list. Just my thoughts after testing

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[Mr. Safety]

I played against a straight u/b version online that used Delver and Dark Confidant, which I thought was very good. The permission and discard are fantastic against combo decks and the discard helps against UWR control (which I was piloting) while Bob keeps your hand running strong. I think in that version (didn't get to see a list) maxing out on Creeping Tar Pit seems pretty good, or at least running 3 copies.

Rough list:

4x Delver
4x Bob
4x Snapcaster

4x Serum Visions
4x Remand
4x Mana Leak
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2-3x Spell Snare
2-3x Disfigure
2-3x Smother


22-24 lands (including 2-3x Tec Edge, 2-3x Tar Pit)

That's essentially what the guy was playing, but I'm not sure about specifics. It seems good, maybe one of the few opportunities for a true tempo deck. I think Shadow of Doubt fits perfectly into this list in some number, but I didn't see any. Spell Pierce also seems quite good in something trying to play tempo. I also like the fact that Far//Away could be a legitimate weapon for this deck.

[DDS5]

I played against a straight u/b version online that used Delver and Dark Confidant, which I thought was very good. The permission and discard are fantastic against combo decks and the discard helps against UWR control (which I was piloting) while Bob keeps your hand running strong. I think in that version (didn't get to see a list) maxing out on Creeping Tar Pit seems pretty good, or at least running 3 copies.

Rough list:

4x Delver
4x Bob
4x Snapcaster

4x Serum Visions
4x Remand
4x Mana Leak
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2-3x Spell Snare
2-3x Disfigure
2-3x Smother


22-24 lands (including 2-3x Tec Edge, 2-3x Tar Pit)

That's essentially what the guy was playing, but I'm not sure about specifics. It seems good, maybe one of the few opportunities for a true tempo deck. I think Shadow of Doubt fits perfectly into this list in some number, but I didn't see any. Spell Pierce also seems quite good in something trying to play tempo. I also like the fact that Far//Away could be a legitimate weapon for this deck.

Ya that was closer to what I am heading to. I have been testing Jace and it makes life a lot easier against the fast aggro that is in my local meta


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[DDS5]

Could use a trinket mage package out of sideboard.

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[DDS5]

I will be posting my list after work tonight

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[radiowave]

I've been playing around with various Uxx Delver variants, as well as other blue-based tempo decks, for a couple of years now in Modern. It's important to note here that Legacy does not necessarily provide a good template for how these decks should look because the card pools and metagames are very different. The one-mana cantrips in Modern are very weak and only Serum Visions helps you set up a Delver flip. You cannot really hope to keep your opponent off their mana without Wasteland, so you have to instead focus on keeping them from resolving their relevant spells. There are no good free counterspells to help you protect your threats. Lightning Bolt is the most-played card in the format and Tarmogoyf is the only threat I think you can realistically consider playing that does not die to Bolt. I think if you take the mindset of trying to port a list from Legacy to Modern, these fundamental differences are going to lead you to make suboptimal card choices.

To me, the main strengths of Delver decks in Modern are:
- You get to play a very low mana curve while still playing cards that have a high individual power level;
- You have access to an excellent diversity of answer cards, perhaps the best diversity of answers in the format;
- You have the flexibility to play either an aggressive or a controlling game, and your sideboarding plan often allows you to turn into a deck that can play the kind of game that you want to play in a given matchup.

I favor Grixis colors for my Delver lists. The reason to play black is that there is a huge difference between a list with 4 good one-drops and 8 good one-drops. You're looking to play a low curve (since otherwise your deck doesn't work- you do not have space for more than 22 lands at the absolute most), so having a turn one play is a big deal. Deathrite Shaman is the best one-drop you can play along with a Delver. Black also gives you access to one-mana discard spells, which offers you another proactive play to make turn one. Red, meanwhile, is good for the same reason almost any deck plays red in Modern- Lightning Bolt. While you lose some consistency by adding a color (and inevitably end up having to shock yourself more often because of it), burn gives you the option to play a much faster game than straight UB allows. As well, UB is forced to run mediocre cards like Disfigure in order to have an answer to something like a turn one Deathrite Shaman or turn two Dark Confidant from Jund. Some people may consider that acceptable, but I do not. If I am running a deck full of one-drops, I want them to be as high-impact as possible so that your card quality doesn't cripple you against the midrange decks that are so popular in the format.

I originally built a UB version of the deck, but I felt very strongly that it needed Bolts to really be effective. I ended up with something very similar to the Zac Hill/Drew Levin deck:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Vendilion Clique
(16 creatures)

3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Serum Visions
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
3x Mana Leak
1x Remand
1x Electrolyze
1x Cryptic Command
3 variable slots
(23 spells)

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Breeding Pool
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Creeping Tar Pit
(21 lands)

I know a lot of people seem to run 20 lands or even 19. Flooding out is a good way to lose with this deck so I understand the reasoning for doing so, but I consider that to be a greedy way to build. I have liked 21 lands and the 21st is a Creeping Tar Pit so I'm not losing a threat slot entirely.

Similarly, I consider 16 creatures to be the right count, at least in this build. I think it is fairly common to run 17 or 18 creatures in Grixis Delver (something like 4x Delver, 4x Deathrite, 4x Snapcaster, 4x Confidant, 1-2x Vendilion Clique), but that forces you to run fewer lands since you can't really cut the spell count. With 23 spells, Delver is still sometimes stuck as a 1/1 for uncomfortably long stretches. Deathrite Shaman is very good in this deck, as having an untapped Shaman really opens up a lot more options for you. With three lands and one in a the graveyard, for example, you can either cast a Cryptic Command or you can Mana Leak/Remand and activate Deathrite Shaman for two damage. It also lets you play a turn two discard spell and still hold up a counterspell. Deathrite combined with Tar Pit also gives this deck a surprisingly reasonable long game. You can also end up in situations where, a bit like some of the UWR variants, you can pump out an unexpectedly large amount of damage seemingly from nowhere- a lot of games end with a sequence like end of turn Bolt, Snapcaster Bolt, Deathrite activation, followed by attacking with a Tar Pit and Deathriting them again.

As far as spells go, I think there's some play as far as the exact numbers and the last few slots, but I don't think I would play something drastically different from this mix. I think Serum Visions is the worst card of the bunch, but it does do a couple of things. Besides setting up Delver, it does give you a certain amount of control over how you want your game to play out, and it lets you run a more diverse mix of spells because it does let you go looking for the one you want. It's no Brainstorm - you can't play a one-of and hope to Serum Visions into it - but it does enable you to run different variants of a given effect (e.g. 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Mana Leak, 1x Remand, or 1x Pillar of Flame, 1x Burst Lightning, 1x Electrolyze rather than 3x of one of them) and have a little control over which one you get. It also lets your Snapcaster cantrip, which is not the optimal use of a Snapcaster but is sometimes what you want out of it when you just need more cards to grind an opponent out. I would not blame anyone for replacing some or all of them with other cards, but I would want those cards to be higher-impact rather than just different than Visions.
A comment on Cryptic Command- 4 mana is a lot and puts some pressure on your manabase to be sure, but the card is amazingly powerful. This deck really can make good use of each of the modes and often casting a Cryptic means you win the game. I would need a good reason not to play at least one, and as many as three are worth considering.

The Spellstutter Sprites look quite odd and it's possible they should just be replaced by Dark Confidants. The advantage they have is that they basically let you cheat on slots, as they are both counterspells (albeit unreliable, though there are a lot of one-mana spells around) and creatures so they essentially let you double-dip in terms of getting multiple effects from a single card slot. Creeping Tar Pits are similarly very valuable because they are both a land and a threat, so they let you fit more effects into your slots. They also mean that all of your creatures that cost more than one mana can be played at instant speed, which lets you play a more controlling game. Spellstutter is garbage in some matchups (e.g. Tron, Pod), but it's very good against Affinity, Living End, and Burn.

I've said enough for one post, but I would be very happy to elaborate on anything or discuss other people's lists and experiences. Some of the straight UB lists in this thread would play a very different (more controlling) game than my list but still look intriguing.

[Mr. Safety]

Spellstutter Sprite stuck out to me as a weak spot, otherwise the deck seems really tight. I agree completely on the Deathrite Shaman inclusion. In hindsight it makes perfect sense.

What could replace Spellstutter Sprite? I think a 2nd Clique along with 2x Terminate would be decent. I'm not sold on Terminate being super crucial but it kills stuff out of Bolt range (Goyf, big Ooze, etc.) Threat density is a problem though, but I can't really see Spellstutter as a valid threat.

Some thoughts on what could be a good replacement for Spelltutter:

Vampire Hexmage
Fulminator Mage
Oona's Prowler
Slavering Nulls

[DDS5]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Serum Vision
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Electrolyze

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp

This is the list I am running

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[radiowave]

Spellstutter Sprite stuck out to me as a weak spot, otherwise the deck seems really tight. I agree completely on the Deathrite Shaman inclusion. In hindsight it makes perfect sense.

What could replace Spellstutter Sprite? I think a 2nd Clique along with 2x Terminate would be decent. I'm not sold on Terminate being super crucial but it kills stuff out of Bolt range (Goyf, big Ooze, etc.) Threat density is a problem though, but I can't really see Spellstutter as a valid threat.

Some thoughts on what could be a good replacement for Spelltutter:

Vampire Hexmage
Fulminator Mage
Oona's Prowler
Slavering Nulls


If you don't like Spellstutter (and it plays better than it looks, but I won't tell anyone to run it in this deck if they don't like it), I would suggest Dark Confidant or Vendilion Clique instead. Bob is not a great threat as a beater, but they also can't really let it live since you will bury them with the extra cards. The deck's low curve means you have a good chance of actually being able to play out all the extra cards you draw, and you're taking minimal damage while also drawing more action on average than the GBx midrange decks since you have fewer lands. This is also not a bad Bob deck since you have 8 other threats (Delver, Deathrite) that they need to Bolt on sight and they probably can't draw removal for all of them. Cliques have the drawback of costing three mana, which is relevant given how this deck runs, but they are very powerful and flash lets you hold countermagic. I'm running one maindeck but I do have a second in the sideboard and would consider a third.

Tarmogoyf is also an option in builds that carry a green-producing land to go with Deathrite, but it's worth noting that you can probably only afford one green source in the list so playing 'goyfs does come with a cost in terms of how you can play your fetches. I have no experience with them in this particular version.

(For people who dislike Spellstutters and are working on a budget, by the way, the best option I've found for that spot is Vampire Nighthawk, followed by Phantasmal Bear. I get that Nighthawk is a three-drop at sorcery speed that dies to Bolt, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices if you aren't going to pay for Cliques/etc. As well, it can really take over games against creature-based decks that fail to remove it- Affinity and Pod, for example, just lose to a Nighthawk some percentage of the time. Phantasmal Bear is not a very powerful card, but it costs one mana and it puts the opponent on a clock if they can't get rid of it, so that's something.)

As far as Terminate goes, I tend agree with Jeff Hoogland's argument for using only burn as removal in the maindeck so the cards are live in all matchups and putting your creatures-only removal in the sideboard. This also helps out a little bit with the issue of threat density since playing an extra burn spell or two in your maindeck sometimes gives you the reach you need to finish a game off. I do think you can get away with a single Dismember or Go for the Throat maindeck, potentially two if your metagame is tilted towards creature-based decks. I suggest Go for the Throat rather than Terminate because Terminate constrains your fetch options and can sometimes be difficult to cast- you can play either one, but because the deck is relatively light on red sources I'm inclined to play GftT for consistency. (It also dodges Spellskite redirection when that's relevant, although I'd treat that as a bonus rather than a reason.) Dismember is a fine compromise if your metagame has a lot of both GBx and Affinity. If you don't maindeck them, I would definitely play some number of those cards in the sideboard to bring in, since you definitely need answers in your 75.

[Mr. Safety]

It's not that Spellstutter Sprite isn't good, it just doesn't SEEM to fit. It's a narrow counterspell that will always force you to be backwards in mana efficiency (paying 2 to counter something that costs 1, occasionally hitting something at 2 mana.) It's also a counterspell that *doesn't* flip Delver and cannot be flashed back with Snapcaster. If it had 2 power it would be unbelievable, but the 1 power makes it a lousy threat (without equipment.) Without the traditional mid-range of old style faerie lists (Mistbind, Cryptic) it becomes rather bad honestly. I'd rather work in more Thoughtseize, more Clique, or even get Tombstalker in there.

[radiowave]

It's not that Spellstutter Sprite isn't good, it just doesn't SEEM to fit. It's a narrow counterspell that will always force you to be backwards in mana efficiency (paying 2 to counter something that costs 1, occasionally hitting something at 2 mana.) It's also a counterspell that *doesn't* flip Delver and cannot be flashed back with Snapcaster. If it had 2 power it would be unbelievable, but the 1 power makes it a lousy threat (without equipment.) Without the traditional mid-range of old style faerie lists (Mistbind, Cryptic) it becomes rather bad honestly. I'd rather work in more Thoughtseize, more Clique, or even get Tombstalker in there.

The one thing I will say about the Sprites is that they are a mediocre threat but it is relevant that they are actually a source of damage. I've joked with more than one opponent that a Spellstutter Sprite is probably the worst creature that's ever killed them. If you hold open a Spellstutter on turn 2 and they have no play (or none you can/want to interact with), in most matchups you should flash it out at end of turn and start attacking. I would support Cliques in their place but I would not replace them with Thoughtseizes or other non-burn spells. The deck benefits from the ability to nickel and dime people down to 0, because as much as you sometimes play a very controlling and/or prolonged game, you're a tempo deck and you always need to have one eye on how much damage you can push through, where can you afford to get in a point or two, how soon can you finish them.

I am not optimistic about the potential for Tombstalker at least in my build, because you have Deathrites and Snapcasters competing for cards in your graveyard and you lack a real mechanism for putting a critical mass of cards in the grave. I think I would want to run Thought Scour as my cantrip of choice if I were hoping to get out a Tombstalker (which isn't necessarily terrible given that it can fuel the other cards as well as mill chaff you've seen with a Delver trigger).

[Mr. Safety]

I think a 1-of Tombstalker would still be ok. Deathrite can feed on an opponent's graveyard and you can pick what you exile with Tombstalker. Even if he's a 5/5 flyer for 4 mana, that's still pretty good. In the later stages of the game or when you flood out on lands he will be a nice threat to sink your mana into.

[DDS5]

I think a 1-of Tombstalker would still be ok. Deathrite can feed on an opponent's graveyard and you can pick what you exile with Tombstalker. Even if he's a 5/5 flyer for 4 mana, that's still pretty good. In the later stages of the game or when you flood out on lands he will be a nice threat to sink your mana into.

Honestly I dnt like him at all if I wanted to play a good large body flyer it would be desecration demon over Tombstalker

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[Mr. Safety]

Fair enough. Desecration Demon will always cost four mana, too. Weak against tokens, but I haven't seen tokens in ages. You could always side it out against that matchup anyways.

[DDS5]

Fair enough. Desecration Demon will always cost four mana, too. Weak against tokens, but I haven't seen tokens in ages. You could always side it out against that matchup anyways.

Ya but against stuff like jund it stops goyfs

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[radiowave]

Ya but against stuff like jund it stops goyfs

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Trying to fight off goyfs with creatures is a bit of a shaky strategy, although Desecration Demon can at least expect to be larger than most Tarmogoyfs. If you're playing UB I would just carry Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Smother in some quantity to remove them directly. If you're playing Grixis, your goal preboard should probably be to either counter the goyfs or ignore them. You're able to fly over with Delvers and Cliques, Deathrite them for 2 a turn, sneak past with Creeping Tar Pits, and throw Bolts at their face, so it's not as though you don't have ways to keep playing Magic once it lands. The situations where goyf is a real problem tend to be the ones where a large one lands early or the ones where Jund has already run you out of resources and any of their threats would be problematic, so that's worth bearing in mind if you're making deckbuilding decisions to accommodate it.

I've failed to mention it yet, by the way, but one of the things that makes these larger/more expensive threats seem awkward to me is that the good Delver builds already tend to be able to use most or all of their mana each turn, so you're facing a relevant cost by putting in 4-mana sorcery-speed cards. In UBx, you have cards like Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster Mage, and Creeping Tar Pit that do effectively let you use 4, 5, 6, 7 mana per turn on your various effects, so unless you've been attritioned out you don't often find yourself with much mana you can't spend. I think this idea that the deck is in need of a big finisher fails to recognize that Tar Pits really do occupy that role for you if it's in your colors.

I will say however that, in a straight blue-black build, I can see a Desecration or two in the sideboard being useful for matchups where you would specifically want that kind of large body, maybe against Zoo. I'm not certain that it would be better in that context than running a Batterskull or even a Wurmcoil Engine to really go all-in on the big finisher option, but it would depend on whether your build can realistically hope to get to five or six mana. Some of the suggestions here have as many as 24 lands, which with Deathrite puts you on par with Jund in terms of mana sources. You can also play a Tec Edge or Ghost Quarter sideboard to bump up your land count. It definitely depends on the build, but decks like Splinter Twin run this idea now and decks like Faeries back in Extended sometimes had it available to them as well. In some matchups Delvers are very low-impact and it could be better to try to go over the top postboard.

On the topic of sideboarding, I've been trying out 1x Jace Beleren and 1x Liliana in my side for the long game and in the matchups where they're good they have seemed very strong to me. Liliana is an option preboard, but one which I'm lukewarm about because she doesn't necessarily make your deck better against the field overall; Jace is not a card I would play in the main. In sideboarded games though, they offer an entirely different angle of attack, as they really give you the ability to keep up with controlling or grindy decks in games that go quite long. UBx Delver can play a long game mainboard as well with Deathrites and manlands so it's possible the planeswalkers are a luxury, but they serve other purposes as well. Blue/black are colors with a lot of answers, so it's very realistic to build a sideboard that lets you tailor your deck to controlling what your opponent is doing by bringing in more creature removal (usually over counters and Delvers) versus beatdown, more long-term advantage cards and/or recurring threats versus midrange, and extra counters and disruption (Thoughtseize, Vendilion Clique, Countersquall) versus control. Jace Beleren can come in with any of those packages to help you in a controlling role. Liliana can contribute to that sort of general sideboard strategy as well, while also putting a sacrifice effect in your sideboard for matchups like Boggles. Has anyone tried this sort of plan? I'd love to hear what kind of approaches other people are taking when constructing their Delver sideboards.

[DDS5]

Trying to fight off goyfs with creatures is a bit of a shaky strategy, although Desecration Demon can at least expect to be larger than most Tarmogoyfs. If you're playing UB I would just carry Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Smother in some quantity to remove them directly. If you're playing Grixis, your goal preboard should probably be to either counter the goyfs or ignore them. You're able to fly over with Delvers and Cliques, Deathrite them for 2 a turn, sneak past with Creeping Tar Pits, and throw Bolts at their face, so it's not as though you don't have ways to keep playing Magic once it lands. The situations where goyf is a real problem tend to be the ones where a large one lands early or the ones where Jund has already run you out of resources and any of their threats would be problematic, so that's worth bearing in mind if you're making deckbuilding decisions to accommodate it.

I've failed to mention it yet, by the way, but one of the things that makes these larger/more expensive threats seem awkward to me is that the good Delver builds already tend to be able to use most or all of their mana each turn, so you're facing a relevant cost by putting in 4-mana sorcery-speed cards. In UBx, you have cards like Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster Mage, and Creeping Tar Pit that do effectively let you use 4, 5, 6, 7 mana per turn on your various effects, so unless you've been attritioned out you don't often find yourself with much mana you can't spend. I think this idea that the deck is in need of a big finisher fails to recognize that Tar Pits really do occupy that role for you if it's in your colors.

I will say however that, in a straight blue-black build, I can see a Desecration or two in the sideboard being useful for matchups where you would specifically want that kind of large body, maybe against Zoo. I'm not certain that it would be better in that context than running a Batterskull or even a Wurmcoil Engine to really go all-in on the big finisher option, but it would depend on whether your build can realistically hope to get to five or six mana. Some of the suggestions here have as many as 24 lands, which with Deathrite puts you on par with Jund in terms of mana sources. You can also play a Tec Edge or Ghost Quarter sideboard to bump up your land count. It definitely depends on the build, but decks like Splinter Twin run this idea now and decks like Faeries back in Extended sometimes had it available to them as well. In some matchups Delvers are very low-impact and it could be better to try to go over the top postboard.

On the topic of sideboarding, I've been trying out 1x Jace Beleren and 1x Liliana in my side for the long game and in the matchups where they're good they have seemed very strong to me. Liliana is an option preboard, but one which I'm lukewarm about because she doesn't necessarily make your deck better against the field overall; Jace is not a card I would play in the main. In sideboarded games though, they offer an entirely different angle of attack, as they really give you the ability to keep up with controlling or grindy decks in games that go quite long. UBx Delver can play a long game mainboard as well with Deathrites and manlands so it's possible the planeswalkers are a luxury, but they serve other purposes as well. Blue/black are colors with a lot of answers, so it's very realistic to build a sideboard that lets you tailor your deck to controlling what your opponent is doing by bringing in more creature removal (usually over counters and Delvers) versus beatdown, more long-term advantage cards and/or recurring threats versus midrange, and extra counters and disruption (Thoughtseize, Vendilion Clique, Countersquall) versus control. Jace Beleren can come in with any of those packages to help you in a controlling role. Liliana can contribute to that sort of general sideboard strategy as well, while also putting a sacrifice effect in your sideboard for matchups like Boggles. Has anyone tried this sort of plan? I'd love to hear what kind of approaches other people are taking when constructing their Delver sideboards.

I agree but I was just giving hem an alternative opinion I honestly dont play anything like that I posted my list earlier that is what I have been playing and starting to build a sideboard for

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[Mr. Safety]

Terminate should be in the Grixis list, in some number. I'm fairly well sold on it being the best spot removal in those colors.

I also think Vapor Snag looks pretty hot for the straight U-B version.

[radiowave]

Terminate should be in the Grixis list, in some number. I'm fairly well sold on it being the best spot removal in those colors.


You can be sold on it being the best spot removal in those colors, but it needs to be the best spot removal in the deck also to be worth running. The manabase needs at least one, probably two more red sources than I have if you want to play Terminate reliably enough, which means cutting black sources, which either cuts your consistency or requires you to change the way the deck works because you'll struggle to cast your Deathrites and discard spells on turn one often enough. I agree that Terminate is very good, but Delver decks face structural challenges when trying to fit in everything they need because you need to make your mana count and color requirements, you need to have enough threats to close out games, and you need to maintain your spell count, with about 22 being the bare minimum required for Delver to be usable. That sometimes means you're constrained on what's reasonably playable.

What are you thinking of using Terminate for specifically? I've found that Affinity is actually a fine matchup (not necessarily favorable, but 50/50ish), so Go for the Throat missing their creatures hasn't been a problem. Nor have I found it particularly troublesome that I can't Terminate something like Wurmcoil Engine, because once they're landing threats like that you're already in trouble, and the two wurm tokens are still a nuisance even once you do kill it. Dismember can be played for one mana, and Go for the Throat kills virtually everything you want to kill while having the marginal advantage of being impossible to Spellskite in the Twin matchup. What am I forgetting about that makes Terminate worth the strain on the manabase?


Vapor Snag, on the other hand, I could actually see as a one- or two-of in UB. The 1 life loss is actually relevant, particularly when you don't have Bolts to go to the face, and without Lightning Bolt your other answers to turn 1 Deathrite or turn 2 Dark Confidant are kind of awkward- either spending two mana to Go for the Throat, paying life to Dismember them, or running the low-impact Disfigure. Vapor Snag buys you time, which is all you need to do.

[DDS5]

You can be sold on it being the best spot removal in those colors, but it needs to be the best spot removal in the deck also to be worth running. The manabase needs at least one, probably two more red sources than I have if you want to play Terminate reliably enough, which means cutting black sources, which either cuts your consistency or requires you to change the way the deck works because you'll struggle to cast your Deathrites and discard spells on turn one often enough. I agree that Terminate is very good, but Delver decks face structural challenges when trying to fit in everything they need because you need to make your mana count and color requirements, you need to have enough threats to close out games, and you need to maintain your spell count, with about 22 being the bare minimum required for Delver to be usable. That sometimes means you're constrained on what's reasonably playable.

What are you thinking of using Terminate for specifically? I've found that Affinity is actually a fine matchup (not necessarily favorable, but 50/50ish), so Go for the Throat missing their creatures hasn't been a problem. Nor have I found it particularly troublesome that I can't Terminate something like Wurmcoil Engine, because once they're landing threats like that you're already in trouble, and the two wurm tokens are still a nuisance even once you do kill it. Dismember can be played for one mana, and Go for the Throat kills virtually everything you want to kill while having the marginal advantage of being impossible to Spellskite in the Twin matchup. What am I forgetting about that makes Terminate worth the strain on the manabase?


Vapor Snag, on the other hand, I could actually see as a one- or two-of in UB. The 1 life loss is actually relevant, particularly when you don't have Bolts to go to the face, and without Lightning Bolt your other answers to turn 1 Deathrite or turn 2 Dark Confidant are kind of awkward- either spending two mana to Go for the Throat, paying life to Dismember them, or running the low-impact Disfigure. Vapor Snag buys you time, which is all you need to do.

I don't run any terminates because in a Grixis list the red is a value splash and allows for a few more sideboard options. Now if you are willing to skew your mana base in favor of doing so than go for it. But it will change your decks fundamentals.

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[DDS5]

So if Deathrite shawman gets banned in modern how will everyone see these 2 lists being affected and adjusted or do Yu just give up on them

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[TraxDaMax]

High on the curve perhaps, but any thoughts on Fullminator Mage maindeck?

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[DDS5]

Okay what matches would it be good for that is the one of the question

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[Quasim0ff]

So if Deathrite shawman gets banned in modern how will everyone see these 2 lists being affected and adjusted or do Yu just give up on them

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Giving up on this list. DRS was one, if not the main, reason to play GrixisG delver.

[HammafistRoob]

Maybe there's aa deck waiting to abuse Young Pyromancer and Bitterblosssom. SOO MANY TOKENS!!!

[Illusions]

Maybe there's aa deck waiting to abuse Young Pyromancer and Bitterblosssom. SOO MANY TOKENS!!!

Moving to vexing devil and guul draz vampire might be an idea, or maybe even goblin guide. I think vexing devil should be decent though. Sure, they get to choose, but given how much damage modern manabases do, blasting them for 4 on the first turn is no joke. Maybe something like:


4 Vexing Devil
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Guul Draz Vampire

4 Serum Visions
2 Gitaxian Probe

4 Remand
3 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare

2 Geth's Verdict
3 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Creeping Tar-pit
17 other lands


I think Dispel might also have a place in the main board instead of the 2 spell snares, but I think with the rise of faeries, spell snare is where we want to be at. I'm not sure if Guul Draz Vampire is necessarily where we want to be, but I think it has potential in this kind of list, since our removal will add up over time. It will also make vexing devil a much tougher decision, because we can either burn them out, or tempo them out with our 1 mana 4/3.

[YamiJoey]

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Guul Draz Vampire? What the hell? You're playing 6 Cantrips, 4 Bolts, 3 Snags, and countermagic. Cut a Snapcaster Mage and use these four slots for Grim Lavamancer. Or just play 3 Lavamen and an additional Cantrip. 14 is a fine number of tempo threats.

[Illusions]

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Guul Draz Vampire? What the hell? You're playing 6 Cantrips, 4 Bolts, 3 Snags, and countermagic. Cut a Snapcaster Mage and use these four slots for Grim Lavamancer. Or just play 3 Lavamen and an additional Cantrip. 14 is a fine number of tempo threats.

...And a full compliment of vexing devils? If you can't contribute to a discussion without being a dickhead, I suggest you leave. The whole point of suggesting ideas is to get people to explore new avenues for the deck, even if they occasionally look bad. It's part of the process of innovating, trying new things. If you aren't prepared to contribute anything meaningful without belittling people, you can fuck off.

[YamiJoey]

I think I read Vexing Devil as Young Pyromancer. A couple of things:

1) There is such a thing as a bad suggestion. A 1/1 for 1 with no abilities is a bad card.
2) Vexing Devil is not a good card. We want 1-mana sweet dudes, which Vexing Devil isn't.

Your deck had to have already beaten them half to death to be threatening. That won't happen on your medeocre and worse draws, so they simply ignore most of your threats in the late game. You're also in three colours. Playing 3 different colours of 1-drop is a scary concept. It puts your mana base on something like 11 Fetchlands, and in Modern Grixis that means your manabase becomes 4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Marsh Flats, 3 Catacombs, 3 Watery Grave, 2 Blood Crypt, or else you'll get dodgy mana draws and be unable to cast half of your deck. Pitching Black to a splash and not relying on it at 1 puts your deck in a situation where you can play at least 1 Steam Vents, and gets you less random losses. Sorry if I sounded short, but you'd say the same if I suggested a Goblin Piker, it's just a bad card.

[Illusions]

I think I read Vexing Devil as Young Pyromancer. A couple of things:

1) There is such a thing as a bad suggestion. A 1/1 for 1 with no abilities is a bad card.
2) Vexing Devil is not a good card. We want 1-mana sweet dudes, which Vexing Devil isn't.

Your deck had to have already beaten them half to death to be threatening. That won't happen on your medeocre and worse draws, so they simply ignore most of your threats in the late game. You're also in three colours. Playing 3 different colours of 1-drop is a scary concept. It puts your mana base on something like 11 Fetchlands, and in Modern Grixis that means your manabase becomes 4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Marsh Flats, 3 Catacombs, 3 Watery Grave, 2 Blood Crypt, or else you'll get dodgy mana draws and be unable to cast half of your deck. Pitching Black to a splash and not relying on it at 1 puts your deck in a situation where you can play at least 1 Steam Vents, and gets you less random losses. Sorry if I sounded short, but you'd say the same if I suggested a Goblin Piker, it's just a bad card.

Those are fair enough comments, and I had a few of the same concerns, especially regarding one drops in 3 colours. That said, I think vexing devil is a lot better than people give it credit for, especially in what is essentially a counter-burn deck like most modern delver decks tend to be. I also think it's unfair to compare guul draz vampire to goblin piker, because it's a legitimately good card that doesn't have a deck at the moment. It's easily possible to put someone to 10 life or less by the 2nd or 3rd turn in modern, especially with shocks coming into play untapped. There's nothing wrong with playing a 1/1 that gets better as the game goes on, otherwise nimble mongoose wouldn't be played in RUG delver. In any case, thanks for keeping it civil.

I think at this stage I'd agree that there isn't really a compelling reason to play grixis over UR delver.

[Mr. Safety]

Gotta admit, I lol-d a little bit at guul draz vampire.

What happened to tombstalker?

[Illusions]

Gotta admit, I lol-d a little bit at guul draz vampire.

What happened to tombstalker?

stalker is good, but he doesn't play well with snaps, and is at best a two-of. Maybe a 4 delver, 4 vexing devil, 3 snapcaster, 2 tombstalker creature base might work.

[Mr. Safety]

I figured a 3/2 split of snap/stalker, respectively.

[radiowave]

Without Deathrite I think we lose our reason to play UB(r) Delver specifically. As much as the other cards we got out of black were useful (discard, Bobs, Creeping Tar Pit), without a second one-drop to complement our Delvers I'm just not convinced there's a good enough reason to play them as opposed to building the deck in a different direction. There might be a reasonable build of UB Faeries using Delver as the best one-drop available in those colors, but that would really be a Faeries deck more than a Delver deck (and I'm not sure there are enough slots to support both plans). At best, I could see some kind of UR-based Delver build splashing black for Bobs.

I think this deck takes a big hit with the return of Nacatl as well, since Zoo is a naturally difficult matchup and you don't want to be dealing infinite damage to yourself with your manabase if you want to have a shot against them. I think blue-red are the best colors for Delver now, or maybe RUG so you can play Tarmogoyfs.

Sad to see a fun, underplayed deck like this get gunned down so that Jund gets slightly worse. If Deathrite ever gets freed again, I'll be thinking of Grixis Delver.

[DDS5]

^ I disagree I never played Deathrite in my list and all I did was set up a UB delver control list

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