[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Purgatory]

Link to the old thread: Click (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-Deck-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh))

Note: This primer is meant to be extensive. If you're a seasoned player of either the deck, or even perhaps Legacy as a whole, there might be some familiar truths further down. This primer was written with new players in mind, but it assumes familiarity with Magic as a game at least. It uses some common colloquial Magic terminology. Though the writer's own Magic resume might be modest, other writers with proven skill are quoted or referenced throughout the primer.


Background:
Threshold as a deck has its roots in both the old Extended format and in Vintage. In Extended, there once existed a deck known as Gro, an aggro-control deck, blue-green, with a very low mana curve, plenty of cantrips and big green finishers like Werebear and Quirion Dryad. In Vintage, around 2005, there was a deck dubbed "Birdsh*t", which paired the disruptive elements of the Fish decks (Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, Force of Will, Misdirection) with creatures like Nimble Mongoose, Werebear and Meddling Mage. These decks could be regarded as the progenitors of the first Legacy Threshold lists.

In the beginning, Threshold came in very different varieties - some splashed white for Swords to Plowshares and Mystic Enforcer, some played straight blue-green Threshold, some played Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, and some played big-impact cards like Blood Moon and Fledgling Dragon. The deck dubbed Canadian Threshold had none of this. It was a raw tempo deck, designed to disrupt the opponents early plays with Stifle and Wasteland, land a creature and protect it with Daze and Force of Will, and ride it all the way home. The deck popularised by David Caplan and Lam Phan looked something like this:


UGr Canadian Thresh, by David Caplan, circa 2007-2008

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

It's amazing how much of the deck is still relevant today. Above is essentially the same deck that's still relevant in today's Legacy meta game. Caplan's list plays full sets of Spell Snare and Fire // Ice, which one won't see today, and the last two cards were considered "flex slots" even back then, but otherwise it's very similar to the RUG lists of today. Caplan lists some of his achievements with the list in this article (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=7977).

Canadian Threshold (henceforth known as RUG for the sake of brevity) existed almost unchanged all the way up to the release of Innistrad. Up until then, new cards like Green Sun's Zenith, Dismember and maybe above all, Spell Pierce was played in both the main deck and sideboard with varying success. Innistrad, however, had Delver of Secrets. This humble common Transform creature turned out to be a true powerhouse, and it pushed RUG to the very forefront of the format, as one of the best decks - if not the very best deck in Legacy.


RUG today:
Back during Caplan's success with the list, it was commonly agreed that 58 of the cards in the main deck were tried, tested and true, and only the flex slots - commonly consisting of either catch-all bounce spells in Rushing River, Wipe Away or very early Snapback, or more threats like Vendilion Clique - were ever up for debate. These days, we're at six flex slots, and the common "Thresh 54" looks like this:

8 fetch lands
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

These 54 cards make up the foundation of RUG, and as a player one needs very strong reasons to make any changes to these cards. The last six cards, however, are completely meta-dependant and up to personal preference. A common set up is:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt

Other cards that could be a part of these flex slots include, but are not limited to, Dismember, Fire // Ice, Gitaxian Probe, Chain Lightning and more rarely Tarfire. These eight cards are up to each individual pilot, and each come with its own up- and downsides. In a meta of mostly fair decks, meaning decks that actually pay for its spells and wins with creatures, it makes sense to stick up on more removal. Forked Bolt is the preferred method, since it comes with the ability to trade two-for-one, but Tarfire is instant and pumps Tarmogoyf, Chain Lightning is excellent when it comes to aiming for the opponent's face, and Dismember can kill Tarmogoyfs, Batterskull tokens and other larger creatures and so on. On the other hand, in a meta game of unfair decks, decks that tend to cast nine spells and then a Tendrils of Agony or put a Griselbrand into play without paying full price, it's preferred to play with more counter magic.

Most tend to go down a middle road and play a bit of each.


The controversial Probe
Gitaxian Probe is the odd one out, and hasn't found real popularity quite yet, but needs to be evaluated in a different light than the other cards. A turn 1 Gitaxian Probe can provide extremely useful information for the RUG pilot, for example, whether or not one should leave mana up for Stifle or play a Delver. It also often pumps Tarmogoyf, since RUG tends to play only Ponder and Forked Bolt for Sorcerys, and it is a card in the graveyard for threshold and thus Nimble Mongoose. Lastly it cantrips, and it does all of this for absolutely no mana. Pilots of UWR Delver has known the power of Gitaxian Probe for quite some time now, and while UWR is also a tempo deck with cards that tend to lose power the further the game knows, they often don't play Stifle, one of Legacy's most situational but powerful cards. They also don't have any creatures with threshold, and only rarely even utilize the grave through Grim Lavamancer. RUG loves cards in the graveyard a lot more, and also plays Stifle and should in theory make better use of the card than UWR Delver.

Lately even BUG Delver pilots have begun tinkering with the card. Jerry Mee took this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68701) all the way to third place at SCG Providence in June of 2014, and while the deck is BUG in colours, it's RUG at heart, with Stifle, Spell Pierce and only 18 lands, all three not common choices for the archetype known as Team America. Jerry Mee also chose to play 62 cards in his main deck to fit in the entire set of Gitaxian Probes, and stresses the importance of the card in this report here on the Source (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)/page24).

While playing more than 60 cards in RUG might not be correct, it is evident that the RUG pilot seriously needs to consider Gitaxian Probe in the main deck.


The 54 and why they're awesome, or card-by-card analysis:
The lands: Earlier versions of RUG played mostly the same manabase as the RUG of today, but with the ratio of fetch lands and duals swapped. Today, most people prefer to go with 8 fetch lands and 6 duals, to help Nimble Mongoose grow, and to power up Brainstorm and Ponder. Wasteland is technically a land, but is rarely used to cast spells. In most RUGs, the only spell in in the main deck Wasteland could help cast is Tarmogoyf, and even then it is quite rare.

Wasteland could be regarded as a zero-mana Stone Rain which prevents you from using your own land drop that turn. Even then, it's extremely powerful. However, it is best used when RUG is already ahead on the board, or else it just prolongs the game in the best-case scenario and sets RUG back even further in the worst-case scenario.


The creatures: These twelve creatures are pound-for-pound some of the most efficient beaters in the format. Nimble Mongoose is the creature that separates RUG from other Delver decks, and it is immensely helpful against decks with cheap and efficient spot-removal, such as Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt. It is rather slow, compared to the other two creatures however, but worth its weight in gold in some match-ups.

Contrary to many other Legacy decks, the creatures in RUG are there to so what creatures were designed to do - swing for the fences. There is nothing fancy about the creatures here, they are just ruthless, efficient and above all, cheap to cast.


Daze and Force of Will: These counterspells are part of what makes RUG such a strong deck. Its inherent ability to interact with the opponent even while tapped out means RUG is often able to drop a creature and protect it even when seemingly out of options. Daze is stronger in RUG than in other decks like UWR Delver or BUG Delver, in the former case because Stifle means Daze is relevant for more turns, and in the latter because RUG's curve is lower, and returning an Island to your hand is therefore a relatively cheaper price to pay.

These can be boarded out in some match-ups, however. Daze is a lot weaker on the draw than on the play, and Force of Will is quite bad when RUG is faced with another fair deck, because trading two cards for one with the opponent is not what you want to do when you're in for a race.


Lightning Bolt: This is quite frankly one of the most flexible, if not the most flexible, removals in all of Magic. It is often used to remove blockers or take down creatures with some sort of utility (Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic or Dark Confidant, just to name a few), but it can also be used to close a game earlier than an opponent predicts. A Lightning Bolt to the face is an entire turn of swinging with a flipped Delver of Secrets or a threshed Nimble Mongoose. It can be sided out against combo decks, but this upside, the fact that it can be aimed at the opponent, means that it's far from as dead as other removal spells like Swords to Plowshares or Abrupt Decay against combo.


Stifle: This card has been an issue for debate for a lot of RUG's life in the format. Drew Levin, in his old Threshold primer (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23898_The-Ultimate-RUG-Delver-Primer.html), talks the card down, but he still includes it in a newer article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27315_The-Road-To-DC--Your-Delver-Primer.html) about a year and a half later. Stifle is one of those cards that has a million applications, but is in itself not that powerful. It is included primarily to counter fetch land activations, but in reality it has to be used more like a utility spell, being both a permanent solution in some cases and a temporary solution in others.

It can be used as a permanent answer to Legacy's plethora of abilities against cards like Stoneforge Mystic's, Rest in Peace's or Snapcaster Mage's enters-the-battlefield triggers, against Miracle triggers on Terminus, against Cascade triggers on Shardless Agent or Bloodbraid Elf, against the trigger cards like Ancestral Vision creates when the last counter is removed, against Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed and so on.

Further, it is a temporary solution to cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Lilliana of the Veil, or Batterskull. The fact that Stifle is temporary in these situations is moot, RUG thrives on the tempo these plays create.

Historically, Stifle has fallen out of favour because of other decks like Merfolk which are more or less Stifle-proof. These days, play it and play the set. Learn to cast it for tempo and value.


Brainstorm and Ponder: The former of these two is rather controversial, and most players, from the loudest players in the "ban Brainstorm" camp to the most ardent of its defenders, agree that it is probably the best card in the format. It is therefor a shame that so many people make grave mistakes when playing with it. Newer players might get stuck at the card type line and play it exclusively at the end of the opponent's turn, only to untap and immediately draw one of the cards he or she put back. This is far from the optimal way of playing Brainstorm because then it might as well read:


Bad Brainstorm :u:
Instant
Draw three cards then put to cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order. Skip your next two turns.


This is hyperbole, but it is at least an indicator of what happens when one plays Legacy's best card in the way described above. For context, a well-played Brainstorm is the equivalent of an Ancestral Recall.

What many newer players fail to realise is that by waiting until your own main phase, Brainstorm digs a card deeper, and therefore lets you see more cards in the end, trading a blue mana for this fact. This trade is well worth it in RUG, which can easily still operate by dropping another land and casting all but four spells in the deck.

AJ Sacher has written an article about this phenomenon (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html). The article as a whole is well worth the read, but it's not all applicable to RUG. To summarise, before casting Brainstorm, a RUG pilot should first answer these three questions:

1. Do I have a way to shuffle my library after casting the Brainstorm?

2. Do I have two dead cards to put back on top of my library?

3. Do I need to play a threat, or find the answer to a threat now?

If the answer to at least one of these questions above is "no", then it's usually better to wait a turn. Save the Brainstorm, see more cards and work with more information. It should be noted that these rules are far from set in stone, and even the most experienced RUG pilot could get Brainstorm-locked (i.e. be forced to put back two bad cards and draw them again naturally over the course of two agonising turns), but it should serve well as a guideline.

Ponder operates a different space as a cantrip, since it is sorcery speed and comes with a built-in shuffle effect. Its synergy with fetch lands should be noted, however, because it allows the RUG pilot to grab one or two good cards from a Ponder, while shuffling away the bad ones.

RUG tends to play these cards quite aggressively compared to many other Legacy decks. This is because RUG likes it when it gets to disrupt the opponent's early game, land a threat and then just take it from there, which sometimes means casting Brainstorms and Ponders, especially the latter, only to find a creature to exploit a temporary gain.


Tempo, or How it Ends:
Tempo as a term in Legacy has a few different definitions, and it has yet to be explained in this primer, despite occurring numerous times above. Adrian Sullivan writes in an old article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/14723_Sullivan_Library_Distinctions_in_Strategic_Archetypes.html) that Tempo decks "Generally wins the game by playing out creatures quickly and then negating an opponent's attempt to kill them long enough to win the game." This is RUG's very essence, it wants to play an early threat, control the opponent's board development through Stifle and Wasteland, counter answers to RUG's threats with Daze and Force of Will and then win before the opponent can get a foot in the door.

If this plan is somehow evaded, and if the opponent finds ways to interrupt the threats of RUG, or if he somehow gets to play his bombs, RUG will probably lose. Each card in RUG has a small effect, and the pilot must learn to sequence the plays correctly in order to maximise the output from each spell.

That said RUG top decks quite well. It won't draw itself out of a tight spot with a giant spell that turns the board state around, like a Terminus or a Jace, the Mind Sculptor or things like that, but it does play a criminally low amount of lands, meaning more than two thirds of RUG's draw steps will result in a new spell in hand. This is not to be underestimated.


On inevitability, and what RUG's up against
Mike Flores writes in "Who's The Beatdown?" (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html) about the different roles different decks might assume in a game of Magic. The article, despite its age, is worth the read if you haven't read it already, but essentially - Flores states that in a match-up of similar decks, it's important to identify what role you have to play. The two that Flores identify he dubs "beatdown" and "control" respectivly, and he notes that decks could very well in some match-ups be beatdown, but have to switch to a control role in other match-ups, or else they'll lose.

Flores writes, among other things,:
In similar deck vs. similar deck matchups, there are a couple of things that you want to look at to figure out what role to play:
1. Who has more damage? Usually he has to be the beatdown deck.
2. Who has more removal? Usually he has to be the control deck.
3. Who has more permission and card drawing? Almost always he has to be the control deck.
If you are the beatdown deck, you have to kill your opponent faster than he can kill you. If you are the control deck, you have to weather the early beatdown and get into a position where you can gain card advantage.


I like to use the word "inevitability" instead. Basically, there are decks that, given enough time, will amass the mana and cards necessary to render any attempts from RUG to win the game pointless. For example, a deck like Miracles aims to prolong the game as long as possible, using cards like Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top, Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage, Terminus, and so on, in an effort to simply survive long enough to make enough land-drops, and eventually cast a Jace, the Mind Sculptor with enough protection to get him to 12+ counters, or an Entreat the Angels with enough angels to kill in a single swing, clearly too many for RUG to deal with. In this match-up, Miracles has the inevitability, do to its higher amount of bombs in the deck, and thus, RUG will have to be the aggressor, the beatdown, in order to win. However, a deck like Team America (BUG Delver) also has the inevitability against RUG, because given enough time, BUG will find one of its Tombstalkers, a creature that RUG has a hard time dealing with, and probably go on to win if it doesn't get countered. Team America will often find itself in the beatdown role, however, so this is never static.

RUG, because of its blessing as a tempo deck, is often the beatdown, because many opponents have the inevitability. Most decks will beat us if you compare the highest-power card in RUG, with the highest-powered cards in other decks, because the low mana curve and tiny mana base of RUG doesn't have any room for any Jace, the Mind Sculptors, Natural Orders, or other high-power, high-cost spells. RUG's power lies with the early turns of the game, before the opponent can establish a proper board, and as such, RUG can rarely fall back on its own inevitability. It does happen, against Storm combo for example, but RUG rarely have the luxury to fall back on the raw power of its cards.


RUG in Legacy today:
Commander 2013 came with an entirely new threat in True-Name Nemesis, and it has certainly made an impact on the format. Looking form RUG's point of view, it can't interact with True-Name Nemesis outside of the stack at all. Other decks have founds tools to deal with it in Golgari Charm, Edicts or similar narrow sideboard tech, some play main deck answers to it in Terminus and Supreme Verdict, while others just plain don't care about it since they are busy trying to be even more un-interactive with cards like Show and Tell or the Storm mechanic.

RUG will have to face this new threat in some other way, and upping the number of Pyroblasts or Red Elemental Blasts in the sideboard to at least three is a good start. Further, True-Name Nemesis tends to come hand-in-hand with equipments, meaning having a good artifact removal spell like Ancient Grudge, maybe even two, in the sideboard will prevent it from going completely nuts. RUG could in theory play its own True-Name Nemesis, but lacks the equipment or Merfolk lords to make it really worthwhile. Further, it doesn't really want to cast three-mana spells at all.

Also printed recently (in Legacy time) are three cards from the Return to Ravnica set. One of these, Abrupt Decay, is a removal spell which can't be countered in conventional ways. It doesn't hit Nimble Mongoose, but it does mean that Tarmogoyf and Delver of Secrets are more fragile than ever. Another is a one-mana Planeswalker (more or less) in Deathrite Shaman, which should be killed on-sight every time without mercy. It allows the opponent to negate the mana-denial plan of RUG to some extent, while it shrinks Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose. The last, Rest in Peace, completely shuts down two thirds of RUGs threats, and such should be countered at all times if possible. It can be handled through Stifle to some extent, since it at least lets RUG keep threshold or keep Tarmogoyf at a threatening size, even though it prevents more cards from entering graveyards. RUG also lacks the luxury that Abrupt Decay provides in these circumstances, unfortunately.

Despite all these new threats to its position, and despite it not doing quite as well right now as it has done for the past year-and-a-half, RUG remains a strong contender in Legacy. It does have a heavy skill requirement on its pilot, but it has proven over and over that it can thrive in almost any given meta game.


The Controversial Nemesis
One way to adress parts of the problems listed above, mainly the frailty of some of the deck's threats, and the deck's reliability on the graveyard is to add True-Name Nemesis to it. As far as True-Name Nemesis shells goes, tempo-based RUG is probably one of the least effective, since it lacks the mana-acceleration to power it out in a game's early turns, and it also lacks the equipment necessary to make the True-Name Nemesis truly effective. That said, True-Name Nemesis is one of those cards that many fair decks struggle to deal with, at least pre-board. It's evasive, difficult to remove and can also be a defensive road-block for any non-evasive creature on the other side.

There are no certainties in Magic, less-so with partially un-proven lists. People have experimented with running various creature bases in the deck, replacing 1-2 Tarmogoyf with True-Name Nemesis while making no other changes to the deck, cutting Tarmogoyf completely for 3 True-Name Nemesis and an Island, and so on. It seems that the metagame have adapted to True-Name Nemesis and he is not the be-all, end-all of creatures that some predicted he would be, but he does make some difficult match-ups on the fair side of the spectrum easier, like Death and Taxes, while still being effectively shroud threat 5+ against Miracles.

[Purgatory]

RUG’s sideboard
Even more-so than the six flex slots in the main deck, RUG’s sideboard, like all other sideboards, is meta-dependent. That said, there are cards that tend to pop up a lot more often than others. In this guide, I will present the cards in a tiered order, and the tiers will be based upon how likely it is that the sideboarded card will be useful in a general, unknown metagame. A higher tier card will therefor show up more often in RUG sideboards than a low tier card, but will not be more powerful necessarily. For example, if half of your field is Affinity, upping the number of artifact removals in the board is probably the right call. However, if your field is mostly made up of other tier 1 decks, and the artifacts you’re aiming to destroy are mostly Umezawa’s Jittes and Batterskulls, keeping the number of artifact removals in the board around one or two is the right call. This is quite arbitrary, but will suffice as a guideline to newer players constructing a sideboard for a larger tournament.


Top-tier (will probably be in just about every RUG sideboard):
Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast: Blue is the best colour in Legacy and likely in Magic as a game. This, in turn, makes Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast the best hosers for the best colour in the game. With True-Name Nemesis in the format and Merfolk looking like a nightmare match-up, playing 3 of these is given, maybe even 4. Some play a split of the two, some play only Pyroblasts and so on, and they are functionally very similar. However, one can Pyroblast any random permanent to turn on a Nimble Mongoose, a card functionality that almost never comes up, but could happen in theory. Further, UWR Delver plays Meddling Mage, who could also in theory name either Blast, meaning a split is, in theory, the wisest choice. These are very fringe occurrences, however, and if you’re sitting on beautiful Beta Red Elemental Blasts, nobody will judge you for playing a set of them.

Submerge: Another given card, and it’s difficult to describe exactly how awesome it is in the right match-ups. Consider the trade you’re making if you just Submerge a creature they have just cast, in your own turn, before you attack. You’ve both used one card, but your opponent paid mana for his, you’ve removed a blocker and also set him back a draw step, since your opponent will likely have to use his draw to re-draw the same creature he has already cast once. It’s a fantastic tempo swing. Like Stifle, Submerge is also a more or less permanent answer to creatures if it’s cast in response to a shuffle effect, such as a fetch land. This doesn’t happen that often, but the other upsides of Submerge makes it well worth 2 or 3 slots in the sideboard.

Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce: It’s likely that the latter is already a part of the main deck, but depending on numbers, more copies of it might be justified in certain metagames. Flusterstorm is a less-versatile but sometimes more powerful variant of Spell Pierce, and should be seriously considered as a means of not only winning every counterwar ever, but also as extra countermagic against combo decks. Living the dream includes playing it in response to a Tendrils of Agony, but it’s unlikely to happen, since it’s much more probable that the combo pilot has Duress’d or Silence’d you before you get a chance to cast it. That said, Flusterstorm might be well worth a slot or two in most sideboards.

Surgical Extraction and Grafdigger’s Cage: These two are probably the most common graveyard hate played in RUG today. The former doesn’t cost use mana and can be cast on turn 0, which is great considering the rest of the deck’s plan, while the latter is a more permanent solution to problematic decks. Grafdigger’s Cage also doubles as a great card against Elves, since it turns off Natural Order and Green Sun’s Zenith. Most sideboards has a couple of these, exactly which is up to preference. Grafdigger’s Cage is probably the most powerful one in a vacuum, however.

Artifact destruction (Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, Destructive Revelry, Artifact Mutation): True-Name Nemesis has put a dent in the metagame as a whole, for sure, and he often comes with his best friend, Stoneforge Mystic, handing him either a Sword of Fire and Ice or an Umezawa’s Jitte, making the Nemesis impossible to race with our Delver of Secrets. Batterskull is another problematic card that can usually stop RUG in its tracks. As such, it is highly recommended to devote one or two slots to artifact removals. Ancient Grudge is the most powerful one, since it’s more difficult to counter than Destructive Revelry and Artifact Mutation, and it also contains inherent card advantage, something that is very rare in RUG and usually something the deck doesn’t do. The others come with their own special effects, Krosan Grip and Destructive Revelry has the upsides of being able to destroy Rest in Peace and other problematic enchantments, while Artifact Mutation can really swing the board state around if it’s aimed at a Batterskull.


High-tier (likely to be seen in most RUG sideboards):
Rough // Tumble: Rough is a Pyroclasm that doesn’t kill our flipped Delver of Secrets. Excellent card in many metagames, good against many of RUG’s difficult match-ups. Rough kills most of the format’s creatures outright, and is practically a one-sided Wrath of God against the decks where you want it. One or two should suffice.

Sulfur Elemental: This card was perhaps more justified when Lingering Souls was more common in the format, but it’s still a fantastic hate card against decks like Death and Taxes, where it kills most everything the deck plays, but most importantly Mother of Runes and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Sulfur Elemental might be worth it as at least a singleton if you expect decks like these.

Grim Lavamancer: Another really strong card in the match-ups against fair creature decks. The only problem is that he competes with Nimble Mongoose for graveyard resources. Some versions of RUG has played with Thought Scour, back when the format was so fast that turning on Threshold now was of utmost importance.

Pithing Needle: This card can shut down a lot of the most problematic permanents in Legacy today. Examples include Liliana of the Veil and other Planeswalkers, Sensei's Divining Top, Sneak Attack or most equipments. Pithing Needle is typically used against control decks, but can be brought in against other offenders. Phyrexian Revoker is another similar card which also can swing, but might prove too fragile. If you expect a lot of Miracles, one or two in the sideboard might be worth it.


Mid-tier (cards strong against certain decks or certain metagames):
Sulfuric Vortex: Anti-control card and presents a hard-to-remove clock. Makes it very possible to race things like Batterskull. Sulfuric Vortex effectively acts as an unblockable creature against the control decks of the format, and it is a strong inclusion in the deck if Miracles is common. However, most Miracle decks will probably board Engineered Explosives against RUG, so they can in theory remove Sulfuric Vortex too. It's also quite expensive and harder to cast than most any other spell in the deck, since it recquires two Volcanic Islands in play.

True-Name Nemesis: The new bogeyman on the block can be included in RUG's sideboard too, and he does very well against many decks. He is another Shroud creature alongside Nimble Mongoose, and he completely shifts the tone of the games against other non-blue fair decks. That said, he is expensive at three mana and quite slow in RUG compared to other decks who run him alongside Lords to pump him or equipments. He could very well be part of the RUG sideboard in most metagames with a decent amount of fair decks.

Winter Orb: This humble two-mana artifact throws a huge wrench in Miracle's machinery, since activating Sensei's Divining Top constantly becomes much less attractive if they don't get to untap all their lands. Also good against other mana-hungry decks like Jund. A fringe card, and probably better in decks with Deathrite Shaman, like Team America. Still worth consideration in certain metagames.

Life from the Loam: Great card for recurring Wasteland or other lands in grindy match-ups. It fills the graveyard for Nimble Mongoose quickly too. One could easily find its way into a sideboard if the expected metagame is full of slower control decks with plenty of nonbasics, like BUG control-variants (BUGstill etc.)

Vendilion Clique: Another :1::u::u: creature, and very good in some certian situations. It can nab Terminus in response to the Miracle trigger, or Life from the Loam at the end of their draw steps, or he could be flashed in in the opponent's end step to assassinate a Planeswalker, or it could be used as an instant-speed Duress against combo. Very versatile, but also quite expensive.

Mind Harness: Pseudo-removal that could turn around a board state completely. It was commonly played in previous years, when GWx creature decks like Maverick were popular and Knight of the Reliquary was everywhere. These days, those decks aren't quite as common as before, and even though BUG is very common in many metagames, Submerge is probably the better card overall.

Sylvan Library: Interesting card which allows RUG to create card-advantage, something the deck isn't really designed to do and rarely does. It's great in control match-ups where lifetotal doesn't matter as much, but it's card-disadvantage for no profit at all the turn you cast it. Consider it as a singleton at most.

Scavenging Ooze: Another threat, and a pretty good one against certain decks. It's very mana-hungry, however, and recquires multiple Tropical Islands in play to make an impact against Dredge, and as such shouldn't be relied upon to do that particular duty.


Low-tier (cards with fewer applications in a general metagame, but could be considered in certain narrow metagames):
Cursed Totem: A great card against Maverick, which relies heavily on all their creatures to be more than "just a beater". Not so great against many other decks. Fringe value, but awesome in certain match-ups.

Null Rod: In some metagames, deciding between this one and Pithing Needle might be difficult. Null Rod shuts down Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, most equipment aside from Batterskull, mana-artifacts like Mox Diamond, and so on. It also shuts down the entire Affinity archetype, so if that has a presence, it's definitely worth consideration. Pithing Needle is cheaper, however, and can also hit Planeswalkers, manlands, creatures with activated abilities and so on.

Gilded Drake: Specific hate for Show and Tell. Very narrow, but very powerful when it does work. In most metagames, it's probably more efficient to stock up on countermagic to hate on other decks as well.

Divert: In theory, Divert lets you do cool things like Diverting a Hymn to Tourach back against the opponent, or an Abrupt Decay kills their own Tarmogoyf instead of yours and so on, but in practice, Divert is probably the most narrow counterspell available to us. It can potentially generate a lot of value, but in most sideboards it is better to include more general answers, like Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm.

Zuran Orb: Specific hate for the Burn match-up, a deck that is likely to appear in at least some copies in a larger tournament, and it's also a match-up we can't afford to lose. Other than that it has few applications, so it could really only be run as a singleton.



There is a more extensive post in the old Canadian Threshold thread, found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-Deck-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056), though it's a little bit out of date. I've used much of the information from that post in the list above.



Sideboarding, general notes
No sideboarding guide can possibly exhaust all the lines possible when it comes to sideboarding and playing games with a sideboarded decks. What's important to note is that the sideboard, often an after-thought, is used in a majority of the games one will play with a deck, if we assume roughly half of the matches will go to three games. Therefore, it is of
utmost importance that a player tests both pre- and postboarded games against popular decks in the field when preparing for a larger tournament.

RUG plays a full set of Force of Will. Historically, people have experimented with that number and has tried to go down to 3 copies - the same has been successful in other decks like Esper Stoneblade or Team America. However, these decks have cards like Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Vindicate and similar to deal with problematic permanents that RUG finds are must-counters since Lightning Bolt will not touch a Tarmogoyf, for example. As such, keeping the number of Force of Wills at the full set seems like the best choice in most given meta games, simply because RUG lives and dies on its ability to interact on the stack.

With all this in mind, one must still conclude that Force of Will is one of the worst cards against a large portion of the field, specifically against other fair decks with a high amount of redundancy. For example, it's often bad to Force of Will a Grizzly Bear on one turn, only to have the opponent cast a Runeclaw Bear on his next turn. This specific example is unlikely to ever happen in a real game of Legacy, but this is essentially how the matches against other decks that aim to win through creatures can play out. Trading 2-for-1 in cards is always bad, but it is especially bad against opponents who are more likely to not care about that. Thus, Force of Will is one of the most commonly sideboarded card in RUG, but this does not mean that it is not worth running in the main deck.

Similarly, Daze loses a lot of power when we're on the draw, since returning a land to our hand to counter their two-drop is in some cases a negative tempo swing that we sometimes can't come back from. If we don't have a good one-drop, such as a Delver of Secrets, or some other way to use the mana from the returned land, it's not uncommon that the game can just be regarded as out the window, if that line of play is the only option. That said, Daze is often useful in a lot of match-ups, since it doesn't cost us another card, just a land drop, in our mana light deck. Daze can be kept in the deck post-sideboard, in at least a couple of copies, against other decks with tight mana bases.

Conversely, on the other side of the spectrum of fair, redundant decks, are the unfair decks that revolve around breaking some fundamental rules of this game - such as paying 2U for an Emrakul, or decks that use a mechanic that is fundamentally broken, namely Storm. Against these decks, it's not uncommon to sideboard out RUG's removal, with the extra pieces in Forked Bolt, Dismember or Fire // Ice biting the dust before Lightning Bolt. Lightning Bolt generally loses a lot of value if RUG's up against a deck with no other targets bar the opponent, but that said, these are also often decks that side in creatures like Xantid Swarm, an excellent target for Lightning Bolt, and also a compelling argument not to side out the entire set. In some periods of Legacy's long and rich history, Storm combo has been known to sideboard in high-utility creatures like Dark Confidant, against decks with few removal spells. This is very unorthodox these days, however. The point is that it's likely that keeping a couple of Lightning Bolts in the deck for games two and three is often the right call. It should also be noted, as above, that Lighning Bolt constitutes something that is colloquially known as "reach" (not to be confused with the keyword), which essentially means that RUG often has the luxury of closing a game a turn earlier than the opponent expected, which is highly relevant against all forms of combo, who almost always has the inevitability.


Example sideboards
Below are a few recent sideboards of successful Canadian Threshold lists in America. Expect a hasty update with some European versions shortly. The main decks are more or less the standard RUG 54 unless specified.

David Bauer - T16 SCG Charlotte 2014-03-30
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Rough // Tumble


Ben Weinburg - T8 SCG Detroit 2014-04-20
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Rough // Tumble


Morgan McLaughlin - Champion SCG Detroit 2014-04-20 (0 Stifle, 1 True-Name Nemesis maindeck)
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sylvan Library
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Rough // Tumble

Match-ups
It could, again, be stated that RUG by its very definition has almost no auto-loss match-ups. RUG has game against almost any deck, due to its inherent strengths in free counters, cheap threats, efficient removal and solid consistency. That said, RUG has almost no auto-wins either. There are games where your opponent mulligans to five and just dies to Stifle + any threat, but most games will be tight. Many of the match-ups are listed as "even", though they may in actuality be 55/45 or 45/55 match-ups - I find that trying to put percentages on match-ups is very arbitrary and also highly likely to change depending on each individual list. As such, I've called them "favorable", "even" and "unfavorable" - and most belong in the center, RUG will as stated almost never auto-lose, but many games will also recquire a skilled pilot to navigate the deck to victory. Because the deck has no auto-win match-ups either, it's imperative that a RUG pilot, before a large event, test the gauntlet of the expected metagame, and comes up with a plan for each match-up.

The sideboarding plans assume the standard RUG 54 list with 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Spell Snare, 2 Forked Bolt in the flex slots, and the "IN" parts assume something along the lines of an example sideboard listed above.

Mirror Even match-up (no, really?)
Mirror matches with RUG, and matches against other Delver decks, may very well be the most skill-intensive, tight and swingy matches in all of Magic. Sometimes, though, they boil down to Tarmogoyf wars which are quite uninteractive and one-sided. The mirror, especially, can go this way, since we have few ways to deal with a Tarmogoyf once it hits the board (really none, barring the rare Dismember, Ice or a Goyf war + Lightning Bolt), and trading two cards for one and Force of Will a Tarmogoyf could be disastrous if the opponent plays another one the next turn.

Further, in the mirror, it's also very possible that one player keeps a mana-light hand and gets completely destroyed by a couple of timely Stifles or Wastelands, which renders most of the game academic. To prevent this from happening, keeping four or even five lands in your opening hand is sometimes the correct move. An opening hand of, say Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, Daze, 2 fetch lands, Tropical Island, Wasteland is a perfectly keepable hand in the mirror, even if Tarmogoyf is our slowest threat and even if the hand might slow down even more due to Daze. Playing very conservatively around Stifle, Wasteland and Daze can be tedious, but a necessity in the mirror.

OUT: Force of Will, Stifle
IN: Submerge, Pyroblast

Force of Will is bad, as is stated above, since trading card parity in the match-up can put you really far behind. Pyroblast can act as extra removal against opposing Delvers, and Submerge is a real bomb against both flipped Delvers and Tarmogoyfs, and it can completely change the board state from a losing position to a winning position.


Team America (BUG Delver): Even match-up
Team America is the new top dog in the Legacy metagame, and it's a deck one needs to be prepared for. The deck is close to RUG in that it has Brainstorm and Ponder for consistency, Daze and Force of Will for free counterspells, and Tarmogoyf for beats. However, while Team America started off as a tempo deck much like RUG, with Stifle, Wasteland, 12 (!) free spells in the previous mentioned counterspells together with Snuff Out, and even Sinkhole for extra disruption, the deck has since evolved quite a lot compared to RUG. Team America these days aim to throw large amounts of disruption on the opponent through a more "tap out" game plan, and it generally aims to steal away the game early on with Deathrite Shaman into Hymn to Tourach + Wasteland or Hymn to Tourach + Delver of Secrets. However, the early game is where we excel, and the match-up is far from unfavorable, contrary to what some Team America pilot might think.

A few things to note: Deathrite Shaman has to die on the spot, each and every time. A lot of their deck's consistency hinges upon it, it messes with our Threshold and it can even shrink Tarmogoyf. Their mana-base is quite greedy, with only 16 coloured sources and 4 Deathrite Shaman to cast Brainstorm, Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay early on. As such, our mana-denial plan is often quite potent, and if we can Stifle a fetch and follow it up with a Wasteland and a threat, things often look good. The games can be very swingy, and while they have 4 maindecked uncounterable answers to our Tarmogoyfs, we have no real answers to theirs bar countermagic. The post-board games are still swingy, but we have Submerge while often they do not, which is very potent in the tempo mirror.

We're aggro and they are control in the match-up, due to our better early game and lower curve. They have the inevitability with Tombstalker and/or True-Name Nemesis, both of which we have no answers to pre-board and few answers post-board, outside the stack.

OUT: Force of Will
IN: Submerge

While both Daze and Stifle lose power on the draw, they are important tools for disrupting the Team America opponent early in the game. They will take over if the game reaches a certain point and they start to resolve their relatively more powerful spells, so it's important that we win in an early and convincing fashion. Force of Will is terrible against almost all the fair decks and as such should probably come out, regardless of if we're on the play or on the draw. Submerge, on the other hand, is the game-breaker in the mirror. It allows us to keep our tempo going, Submergeing a potential blocker before combat, while forcing them to re-draw their creature the next turn, all for no mana cost. It can be used as pseudo removal, either in response to their fetch-land activation, or in conjunction with Wasteland, to turn off mana for Tarmogoyf etc. It's especially brutal against Tombstalker, a creature that otherwise tends to beat the entire RUG deck into a pulp.


Patriot (UWR Delver) Even match-up
The third Delver deck is the lightest regarding threats, as it only plays 10, in their standard lists - 4 Delver of Secrets, 4 Stoneforge Mystic, 2 True-Name Nemesis. They also play lots of removal, somewhere between 6 and 8 mainboarded pieces, meaning aside from Nimble Mongoose, our threats won't stick around for long. Stoneforge Mystic needs to be dealt with, since many of our lists contain 0 answers to a 4/4 vigilant lifelinker. Their manabase is about as fragile as the BUG Delver one, they lack Deathrite Shaman but then again won't tap out as much in their own turn. Stoneforge Mystic and the equipment she finds is deceptively mana hungry, however, and most UWR lists doesn't run any basics. Thus, Stifle/Wasteland is effective against this deck too, if slightly less effective on the draw than on the play, as is the case against most any deck.

True-Name Nemesis is a real thorn in the side of RUG, or a concrete pig in the road, depending on your perspective. Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast is a necessity against the deck, since we have no outs once it is in play. The artifact removal is also very useful, obviously - even though they only have 2-3 artifacts, they are complete must-answers. Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice makes True-Name Nemesis impossible to race, and Batterskull is a handful in the post-board games too.

We're aggro almost every time due to their lower creature-count and inevitability in Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull.

OUT: Force of Will, (Daze)
IN: Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry

Force of Will is, again, the worst card in the deck, and is replaced by Pyroblast for a more card-efficient answer to especially True-Name Nemesis. The real danger of the 3/1 Merfolk is when he comes equipped with a Sword or a Jitte, however, which is why we board in both our artifact removals, despite them only having 2-3 artifacts in their deck post-board.


Jund Unfavorable match-up
Jund is a tough nut to crack. They have Deathrite Shaman to mess with our Threshold, Hymn to Tourach to 2-for-1 us, Liliana of the Veil to deal with Nimble Mongoose, Bloodbraid Elf for infinite value, and Abrupt Decay to remove our Tarmogoyfs while we can't touch theirs pre-board. That said, the deck is extremely mana hungry, and would almost always like to curve into a turn 3 or so Bloodbraid Elf, a feat that isn't entirely easy to complete against a deck with Stifles and Wastelands. They almost always have basic lands, so their manabase could be regarded as more stable than BUG's, but they also often carry Grove of the Burnwillows for Punishing Fire, meaning our Delver of Secrets will not live for long.

OUT: Force of Will
IN: Submerge

Again, Force of Will is bad against a deck full of redundancy in their game-plan. Submerge is, again, one of the few ways we can deal with their Tarmogoyfs, and it's generally a boss in the match-up.


Miracles Even match-up
Out of the three popular Delver decks in Legacy today, RUG has probably the best match-up against Miracles, since it combines three important components for the match-up: Shrouded creatures (which UWR has, but BUG lacks), Stifle (which both UWR and BUG lacks) and sideboarded red blasts (which BUG lacks). It doesn't have the Abrupt Decays of BUG, meaning Counterbalance will be a much harder lock, especially considering our lower curve compared to BUG, but otherwise, we match them our outpace them in every other important aspect. To win against Miracles, we need to make sure that we don't over-extend into a 2-for-1 Terminus, which is otherwise their only answer to a resolved Nimble Mongoose.

Stifle can be used on both Terminus' and Entreat the Angels' Miracle triggers, meaning that the Miracle player will draw the card as usual, but won't be allowed to cast it for its Miracle cost. As such, it's an important tool for controlling their answers to our threats as well as one of their win conditions, and thus, should perhaps not be used on the opponent's fetch lands to the same extent as against other opponents. There are exceptions to this, of course, if the opponent has mulliganed for example.

We're aggro, they have all the inevitability with powerful planeswalkers and Entreat the Angels. If they survive to the late game, it's likely that they take over completely.

OUT: Daze, Forked Bolt
IN: Pyroblast, Destructive Revelry, Sulfur Elemental, Vendilion Clique

Some would advocate siding out Lightning Bolt, but Daze also loses a lot of power against Miracles as their primary game plan involves slowing the game down and making land drops, and it's unlikely that we'll be able to force them to play into a Daze in games 2 and 3. Lightning Bolt, on the other hand, can be used to quicken the clock presented by us, or outright end the game on the spot, or it could be aimed at Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Some Miracle players play Stoneforge Mystic in the sideboard, and a few even in the maindeck, meaning Lightning Bolt is even more important since Batterskull can sometimes effectively shut down our deck. Vendilion Clique can steal a Miracle-card with the trigger on the stack (= they can't cast it) and it can also assassinate Jace, the Mind Sculptor from nowhere. The weirdest inclusion above is obviously Sulfur Elemental, but it has Flash and Split Second as well as protection from white, meaning Miracles has to use Terminus to answer it or offer the trade with one of their flash creatures, in some ways similar to how Nimble Mongoose works in the match-up. It's arguably an even better Jace-assassin than Vendilion Clique, since they have to have more mana up to protect a Jace being attacked by Sulfur Elemental than Vendilion Clique.

RUG has access to two cards that are narrow but really gives Miracles the fits: Sylvan Library and Sulfuric Vortex. While the latter is a hard-to-remove clock and shuts down Batterskull-lifegain, the former is a broader good-stuff card which can be sided in against a variety of match-ups where the games might go long and get grindy.

Out of the three Delver decks in Legacy today, RUG, UWR (Patriot) and BUG (Team America), RUG probably has the best match-up against Miracles. Despite getting hit really hard by the countertop softlock, RUG carries lots of tools that are very important in the match-up, namely a reliable Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose, Stifle and Pyroblast post-board. With some practice, RUG can contend well in a Miracles-heavy metagame, and if it's common in yours, consider Sulfuric Vortex and Sylvan Library.

Philipp "Einherjer" Schönegger, Miracles pilot who made it all the way to the top 4 of GP Paris (http://www.eternalcentral.com/there-and-back-again-grand-prix-paris-top-4-report-with-miracles/), sheds some light on the match-up in this post: Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-DTB-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)&p=819100&viewfull=1#post819100).


Stoneblade Even match-up
Stoneblade is one of Legacy's mainstays, and even if it's lost some ground lately, it is still a contender in many metagames. The match-up can become tricky for us for several reasons, depending on the build. The Esper variant that used to play Lingering Souls is thankfully not very popular anymore because Deathrite Shaman makes Lingering Souls quite bad. However, most Stoneblade lists carries Legacy's new bogeyman, True-Name Nemesis. While Lingering Souls was annoying due to its ability to stall our deck for several turns and protecting Planeswalkers, True-Name Nemesis outright kills Nimble Mongoose and can block any Tarmogoyf. To make matters worse, we can't deal with it outside the stack, meaning the card is very problematic. Stoneblade also carries Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage to deal with all of our creatures bar Nimble Mongoose, Supreme Verdict to deal with the entire board, Engineered Explosives for anything, and some lists are experimenting with Blood Moon, which locks us down almost completely. Stoneforge Mystic grabbing a Batterskull is as problematic as ever, and thus the former must be killed on sight.

However, the deck is quite slow and if they are on three colours, their mana is quite fragile. It's unlikely that we will be able to completely shut them out, since it's very likely that they will fetch basics, but more basics means it's more likely that we're able to lock them out of a colour of spells. Stifle is an all-star against Stoneblade, and it has applications against Stoneforge Mystic, Engineered Explosives, Batterskull and other equipment, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Snapcaster Mage aside from their fetch lands.

We're aggro, they're control. They have the inevitability of Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull and Planeswalkers, neither which should resolve uncontested from us. Ideally, they should never hit enough mana to cast their more expensive spells, but it does happen.

OUT: Force of Will
IN: Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, Artifact Mutation, Destructive Revelry


DeathBlade Even/Unfavorable match-up
DeathBlade is the younger, hotter sister of Stoneblade, incorporating Deathrite Shaman, and often sacrificing its game against unfair decks in leu of beating fair decks more easily. This is often done through adding more creatures like Dark Confidant, moving Force of Will to the sideboard and upping the amount of removal in the maindeck, compared to Stoneblade. The DeathBlade lists are far from as refined as RUG is, and as such, it's hard to know their decklist, even if you know your opponent is on DeathBlade. As with Stoneblade, True-Name Nemesis is to be expected, and it's every bit as difficult to deal with as in Stoneblade. They also play quite a bit of removal, with cards like Swords to Plowshares to deal with Tarmogoyf and Delver of Secrets, and some lists even play Engineered Explosives maindeck, which can deal with Nimble Mongoose. Many lists also play with Liliana of the Veil, at least somewhere in the 75.

Compared to Stoneblade, DeathBlade is a bit more explosive, but since their manabase is Esper like many Stoneblade lists, and most incorporate at least a splash of green for Deathrite Shaman's third ability and Abrupt Decay (often sideboarded), their manabase is often a bit softer than Stoneblades. We're aggro against them every day of the week, and we need to exploit the holes in their manabase in every possible way. Deathrite Shaman is a must-kill, as is Stoneforge Mystic, since Batterskull can't be allowed to hit the table. Their planeswalkers are problematic as well, although not all lists play them. It most often comes down to playskill. Also, beware Rest in Peace from their sideboard, even if they are playing both Deathrite Shaman and Snapcaster Mage. They will probably board it in.

OUT: Force of Will
IN: Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, Artifact Mutation, Destructive Revelry


Sneak and Show Even match-up
Contrary to RUG, BUG Delver has an unfavorable match-up against Sneak and Show. The reason for this is that a large part of BUG's disruption plan stems from discard, which is by its very definition pro-active. Against decks like Storm, which needs a critical mass of cards in hand to go off - at least most of the time - discard is fine, but against Sneak and Show, a two-card combo deck, discard does nothing to prevent the opponent from just topdecking out of a situation and winning from there. BUG has Abrupt Decay which can only hit Lotus Petal in the match-up, and RUG has Lightning Bolt which can at least go to the head and equals a full turn of attacking with a Nimble Mongoose on threshold or a transformed Delver of Secrets. UWR Delver has probably the best match-up of all, wielding 12 counterspells maindeck in most lists, along with Sword to Plowshares that could in a pinch take care of a Griselbrand, but on the other hand, their threats are more mana-intensive than RUG's, and generally slower. Overall, RUG is well-equipped to take care of Sneak and Show.

That said, Sneak and Show can be a loose cannon in some games and simply nut-draw us out, with a turn one or two Show and Tell with multiple counters to back it up. Most decks would lose to such a start, however, so RUG's in nice company. With 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 2+ Spell Pierce and 4 Stifles to disrupt them, and cheap, efficient threats, RUG is probably one of the better decks against Sneak and Show in today's Legacy metagame.

We're both aggro and control, at different stages in the game. Once a clock has hit the table, we need to sit back and keep mana up for countermagic, but tapping out on turn one or two to cast a threat might be necessary.

OUT: Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt
IN: Flusterstorm, Pyroblast, (Ancient Grudge)

All removal RUG employs falls short of dealing with both Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselbrand, and as such are only possibly aimed at the opponent's head instead and should be sideboarded out first. Flusterstorm and Pyroblast are effective answers to both their engine - Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain, and their kill conditions - Show and Tell, though neither does anything against Sneak Attack. Stifle can be used to hit their fetch lands and stunt their board development, it hits Sneak Attack since they are often short on red mana, and it can also be used on Emrakul's Annihilator trigger to save RUG's side of the board and swing for the win on the following turn. Some lists make use of Defense Grid, which shuts us out almost completely, so if one suspects or knows that the opponent has Defense Grid and will bring it in, one can next-level them and bring in our artifact removal in anticipation of this.


Storm (ANT, TES) Favorable match-up
Like Sneak and Show, Storm has the ability to completely nut-draw any deck out of the game turns one and two, but unless the opponent keeps the god hand, we have all the tools in the box to fight him, Storm is likely one of our best match-ups, and we're likely one of their worst. Once a proper clock has been established, all of our resources can be used to find more countermagic. Daze is quite easily played around by them, so using it to counter things like Brainstorm or Ponder might be tactically sound. Storm decks always has insurance in some form, primarily discard in the form of Duress, but sometimes also Chant effects which completely shuts off our entire turn of countermagic. Holding drawn lands and countering a Chant effect and trying to shy away the Storm player from going off. There are few things as terrifying in Legacy as a skilled Storm player but among all the decks in Legacy, we're one of the best to go toe-to-toe with them and come out on top.

We're both aggro and control, in a similar way as described above regarding Sneak and Show.

OUT: Forked Bolt
IN: Flusterstorm

Contrary to the Sneak and Show match-up, Pyroblast is quite narrow against most Storm decks, as they mostly have Brainstorm and Ponder as blue spells, while their kill conditions are black and red. Lightning Bolt still holds quite a bit of value against Storm, since they often board in Xantid Swarms, which need to be dealt with and wasting a Force of Will on that creature is less than ideal. Lightning Bolt can also bring their life total under duress, pun intended, and life totals are more important to decks running Ad Nauseam than other combo decks, while it ups our graveyard for threshold. Flusterstorm could potentially completely counter a lethal Tendils of Agony or Empty the Warrens, but unless they have mulliganed heavily and our clock on them is quick, it's much more likely that it will get Duressed, or that the opponent Chants us long before casting either namesake spell. That said, Flusterstorm is a great utility counterspell, able to counter Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, and they might bring in Pyroblast against us.

[Exuberance]

Alright, let's Stifle some fetch lands!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Alright, let's Stifle some fetch lands!


I played Thresh Can today for a Top8 out of fifty players. List was pretty stock:

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


I woke up early in the morning, then I woke up again and again until I finally kicked myself out of the bed. I thought I'll remain at home, as I was a bit sick, and my family was at wife's parents, so I could have tidy up or mess around or w/e. But then I remebered that I pestered Slosh to lend me a Volcanic, so I rode away in a tractor, as our auto has some trouble with coil.
I met Martin, took the Volc and then we and another Martin chatted about Cold Meat Industry and old school BM and some other cool stuff, until the torunament started quite some time later then it should.


R1, Tom, Elves, unknown
I lost the die roll.
g1, otd, keep7: Tom played two Symbionts, but I had two Forked Bolts and fast Delver, I also coutered his GSZ and his Glimpse bricked. Turn before he lost, he played Chord into Skyshroud Elf and comboed me out with Seedcradle Witch.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RtlhM17YXrg/ULKEZhwwJeI/AAAAAAAABkQ/bJtA91XmZbE/s1600/go+figure.gif
sb: Out some crap (I guess Mongooses and Dazes/Stifles?), in Needles, Cages, Submerges and one-sided WoGs known as Rough.
g2, otp, keep7: I started with Delver, followed by Cage. Rough flipped th Delver, then it washed away face of the earth. I got a FB, too.
sb:trivial changes if any at all.
g3, otd, keep7: Forked Bolt. Goyf. Double Daze. I won.
Win, 1:0.


R2, another non-Slosh Martin, ANT, known
This guy has quite a bad score with me.
g1, otd, keep6: I played Goyf in this game, got hit by Duress and double CT. Unsurprisingly I lost.
sb: out Mongooses and Forked Bolts, in Roughs, REBs, Flusterstorm, Cages.
g2, otp, keep6:I started with Cage, followed by a Delver. Looks like my favourite turn1-2 komboh. Delver flipped FoW, I was hit by CTm, but my hand was full of good and I won.
sb:I took out one Goyf.
g3, otd, keep5:I kept Tarn, Foothill, Volc, Trop and Bolt and was completely Extirpate-proof. I lost after twelve goblins emerged out of nowhere. If only I wasn't a mron, I'd bolt one, bought additional turn and maybe found Rough. Alas, alas...
Loss, 1:1.


R3, Lukáš, WBrew, kinda known
Herp Brew, Hebrew, whatever Brew... I've seen him playing it, but only few turns, so I didn't know exactly what I'm against.
g1, otd, keep6: I played Goyf. My opponent, on the other hand, resolved Tombstalker and double Lingering Souls.
sb: I don't have a clue. I guess some anti-arti tools, Sulfur Elemental, of course. Needles.
g2, otp, keep6: I snared a Hymn, then Delver and Mongoose got there.
sb: No changes?
g3, otd, keep7: Lukáš Extracted my Delver. I got two Mongoose, though, and bolted his Confidant. He resolved another Bob, though, and EOT Enl. tutored Humility. Untap, upkeep, lose four. Play Humility. Creatures are 1/1. My turn, tap them. Exchange Goyf for Bob. EOT Elemental. Tap dudes. GG.
Win, 2:1.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=83771&type=card + http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=4881&type=card = http://www.extra.cz/images/thumbs/13/b4/13b40a8-742-sexy-fail-funny-0d0000000-0d0000000-1d0000000-0d5790887-sector_408x230-fit.jpg


R4, Vojta, DnT, guessed
I was like 99% sure he's riding the white horse.
g1, otp, keep7: I played a 1/2 Goyf, than turn later I Snared the new lolcat, Spirit of the Labyrinth. With Ponderin gy, I rode for 6. Vojta found SFM, SFM found BSKull, but I was too fast and Stifle sealed the deal.
sb: out some crap, mostly Dazes and a 1/1 split of Spell Counters, in anti-arti tools, Roughs, Needles and SE.
g2, otd, keep7: turn1 Vial, turn2 MoR, turn3 Thalia, turn4 Leonid Brezhnev, the Arbiter. Yeah.
sb: switched FoWs and Dazes somehow.
g3, otp, keep7: Vojta had double Leonin Arbiter, but I had enough lands before the second hit. He also got 2x SFM, but the first one failed, because of Leo. I got Delver and double Mongoose, 2/3 of them he exchanged for lolcat and Avenger. I flipped the Delver with Mutation, though, so not even BSK could save him.
Win, 3:1.


Having some time (but not enough for the dinner), I solved an order. It consisted of four Autumn Willows and two Kaysas, but I explained toi the barkeeper that our dog ordered it, and that he made a mistake, that it should have been only one and one green chicks. Luckily they were fine with it.
Then we went outside with Slosh, but there were some 12-14 yo MtG players discussing how they fought fearfully and how they didn't ran away when facing thirty dudes and w/e. So we went into the hole again.


R5, Ivan, DnT, known
Legacy is diverse.
g1, ot?, keep7: I got double Forked Bolt and killed lolcat plus Thalia. Goyf was plowed, but Delver got there.
sb: see above.
g2, otd, keep7: I played Delver. Ivan got Vial, but I had Needle. I also had Bolt for Mom. He StPed my insect, then I FBed lolcat and Thalia. He got another lolcat and I bolted it, then I Grudged Revoker (Grim) to ride the Mongoose. RiP: Stifle. Flickerwsip: Stifle. SE killed the Flicker, then plowed. mongoose got there. Stifle rules.
Win, 4:1.


R6, Tom, Miracles, known
We went for the Chinese soup. It goes well with my (nigh)full-Chinese Canadian.
ID, 4:l:1


Here I am in the playoff. Needless to say, I was pretty tired and exhausted. It takes whole eternity before all the players finish, and then the air in the lair, etc. I like the four-rounders more.


Top8, Martin, bUrg, known
This guy is tit.
g1, otd?, keep6: I Snared Bob, then he Wasted me of myonly land and I lost.
sb:I think I messed it. I want everything, everything! Blests, Submerges, Rough, IDK what else.
g2, otp, keep7:I bolted DRS, Snared Goyf, resolved my own Werebear, Submerged Bob, triple Dazed something, won.
sb:I guess I trimmed Dazes.
g3, otd, keep7:I screwed this, I kept bad hand and wasted one Bolt into Daze. Martin played Goyf, TNN and Grim, then LftLed me out of game while my Goyfs stared at the Wall of Indestructibility. Bah, what a format.
Loss, Top8 finish.

For my efforts I won Horizon Canopy. I got five of them now, two Japanese. Also, it took me eight hours, so without entry fee, I made a nice 15 USD of profit for the whole day. I'd rather be with my gorgeous wife and our amazing children next time.

Pros:
Slosh Martin and both non-Slosh Martins.
Artifact Mutation, Forked Bolt, Stifle and all the Thresh creatures.
Chinese soup (I had two of them) and chatter with Tom.
Judge and the barkeepers, they're pretty good.
ZUZY, of course!

Cons:
Top8 Martin.
TNN.
Slowness of tournament.
Wastelock and mulligans.


I'm selling my Volcanics, so this will be my last tournament for quite some time. It wasn't bad, but in fact it was pretty arduous day.

edit: my deck. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=801894&viewfull=1#post801894)

[Exuberance]

Thanks for the report dogg, and grats on top 8.

I actually may break up with Stifle and Mongoose for the Invitational and go back to my UR Delver roots. Main deck Price of Progress seems like the place to be right now. Don't worry though, I'll keep her phone number and get back with her if UR treats me bad.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks for the report dogg, and grats on top 8.

I actually may break up with Stifle and Mongoose for the Invitational and go back to my UR Delver roots. Main deck Price of Progress seems like the place to be right now. Don't worry though, I'll keep her phone number and get back with her if UR treats me bad.

With all due respect to UR Delver (unless I'm mistaken, there was one in the Top8, too), I find it amusing how extremely annoying and effective Mongoose is. I won lots of games where any non-shroud creature wouldn't be good enough.

My main concern now is TNN. Yep, it was Life from the Loam that stopped me, not exactly Nemesis, but if there'd be a different creature on board, maybe I'd got through.
I'm concidering going up to three Blasts (and I'd cut Flusterstorm for them, as REBs are good in matchups where you'd use Flusterstorm), but this is hardly a solution, it's just an emergency patch. I don't want to sidegrade into bUrg, esp. after I sold my U/B lands, but I simply don't have any idea how to properly fight the bUrg (and other TNN based) decks with a clean Canadian.

So far I came to the conclusion that we need:
- Bolts for DRS
- Submerges for Goyfs
- REBs for TNNs

But how should the rest of post-board deck look like? I doubt one may cut creatures. FB should be kept in because of DRS, after all, we brought it because of this dude. FoW is a card disadvantage, but it's one of the few card that hit TNN. Daze... Daze is a tempo tool, and we shouldn't cut them, at least on play. Maybe Snare. It stops only Goyfs, and we have three Submerges for them. Pierce is good to protect our big spells, and we need Stifle to not only keep the game in opening stages, but also to not fail to early Waste.
How many DRS they play? Do they even use a set? I think that DRS is the most important creature of any non-white TNN.dec and as such, it needs to be targeted.

Is the following post-sb setting reasonable?

4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
We need them.

2-4 Daze (mostly for TNN)
2-4 Force of Will (ditto)
2 Spell Pierce (general protection)
4 Lightning Bolt + 1 Forked Bolt (5 bolts against 3-4 DRS)
3 Submerge (Goyfs)
2-3 Pyroblast (TNN and overal protection)

-2 Snare, -1 FB, -1/-2 Daze (otp/otd), -2/-1 FoW (otp/otd).
I'm not sure.


EDIT: Oh, and thanks for an amazing new primer! Also, a question: is it possible to redirect damage from Sulfuric Vortex into enemy planeswalkers?

[hiski]

Also, a question: is it possible to redirect damage from Sulfuric Vortex into enemy planeswalkers?

Yes it is possible :)

212.9g If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 419.6c) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 419.9). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.

[hiski]

Thank you also for an updated primer! I really would love to see UGr shine once again as a top tier deck but I'm not seeing it happening without any new cards because the core list of the deck is so tight and new meta decks are playing unfair cards which our colors and mana base can't have an access to.

I also played couple of weeks ago in a little legacy tournament of four rounds. I gathered up a burn full version of UGr;

4 Goyfs
4 Delvers
4 Mongeese

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

18 Lands

First round was against Team America and I got demolished in the first game. Pretty much standard stuff; turn one shaman into turn two tarmogoyf + all the counters in the world into turn three Liliana. Second game we both mulled down to six but my Delvers got me there with the help of Stifles and Submerges (I submerged also one of my own Delvers in response to Abrupt Decay because no cantrips or other threats in hand). Game three my opponent kept a wasteland full hand but I was a bit lucky with my three land hand by drawing one land more and I didn't have problems in casting spells.

Second round was against ANT TES. I won the first game by double Delver and he was unable to do anything.. I think he didn't hit anything with his cantrips. Game two and three were all the same; in turns one and two he used Gitaxian Probe/Thoughtseize into one or two Cabal Therapies until he comboed. Nothing I could do there... I had hand of FoW, Daze, Stifle and Flusterstorm and he rips it into pieces two times with perfect hand of insane discard and instant combo.

Third round was against Belcher. I thought he was on Dredge and lost first game in turn one. Second game I prepared and mulled down to six (FoW + Daze hand) and won with Delver or two. In third game mulled down to four and no FoW.. he has third time turn one combo and I lost. ''Good Game''.

Fourth round was against some little guy with homebrew mono blue deck. First round I just flipped Delver and Dazed + Bolted everything. In game two I mulled down to five and he did play turn four Dark Ritual into Oona, Queen of Fae :S I was able to double block it with Delvers and three Goyfs ride me to victory.

Overall I was happy with the deck :) I beated the BUG and I know that I have good combo matchup and that double discard with combo backup is rare and for all Belcher players..... well mulliganing into Force of Will is all mathematics ;) Just kidding! I had good gaming night and I enjoyed all the games!

See you all next week with new results!

Edit: Second round was against TES not ANT.

[Zeph]

Hey everyone, I just finished a win-a-mox tournament at Just by Chance games in Waterloo and I'll be posting a tournament report later. Got top 4 outta 28 players, so overall I'm pretty happy :)

Here's my list, I'll add the match ups as I get to typing them later:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforests
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fire // Ice

Sideboard:

2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique

[index]

Hey Guys, thanks to all the reports above me. Today I have played a little Tournament with 31 people and went 4-1 winning a Marsh Flats. This time i played a very aggressive list of my favorite deck in Legacy. Overall i am very happy with the list wich makes the bad matchups like DnT, Team America, Elves better and can raise a resolved TNN very well. The decklist was the whole day very consistent and gave me always the right burnspell i needed. In the next days i will write a full tournament report.


4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Spell Pierce


Sideboard:

2 Price of Progress
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Spell Snare

Thanks.

[Exuberance]

It warms my heart to see RUG still doing well after all this time.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It warms my heart to see RUG still doing well after all this time.

Seconded. I'm really glad that the deck seems to be doing well. And of course, I'm happy that I could make some result after a while.

So, what are people's opinions on my sb ideas against DRS-TNN.dec? Also, is there any way how to improve "Merfolk with eight Nemesi" matchup?
Are any of these cards (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[damage]+[can%27t]+[be]+[prevented]) helpful?

[hiski]

So, what are people's opinions on my sb ideas against DRS-TNN.dec? Also, is there any way how to improve "Merfolk with eight Nemesi" matchup? Are any of these cards (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[damage]+[can%27t]+[be]+[prevented]) helpful?

I didn't find these cards too atractive :( I think that we are not looking for a hate cards because those usually should turn the tide of the game (flusterstorm > storm, pyroblast > show and tell, cage > graveyard theme decks).

Because the problem with Deathrite Shaman, True-Name Nemesis and Abrupt Decay are that what if our opponent doesn't draw or play them but we draw the hate cards. Decks with these cards have lot of ways to win the game so in my opinion we can't rely on a single card hating and hope it will carry us to victory.

For example Nemesis wrecks creature matchups but is still a decent creature that can kill opponent in combo matchup too when on the other hand Golgari Charm is usually useless in combo matchup. The UGr needs new cards those it can play in main deck.

[Purgatory]

Nicely done, guys, thanks for the tournament updates!

As for myself, I've got a couple of tournaments planned, 3 or 4 in April alone. Not sure if I'll bring RUG or BUG, bor maybe some mix. We'll see.

The primer will be updated with some match-ups later next week, and this is where I could use the most help. Keep a look out for it, any help is much appreciated. :)

[kravkenov]

Hi, in the older threat, there were people speaking about upcomming BOM 9 (very open meta with lot of BUG and Miracles expected, also as usual, combo decks). As I will also play there with my Canadian *****, I tried to add some meta answer to my main and sideboard options.

First, I want to fight black (Team America, Jund, and Co.). They have discard, big creatures (Tombstalker) we cant really deal with and efficient removal (Abrupt Decay). Second, I want to fight Miracles. Sulfuric Vortex looks like a very strong answer (with REB and Flusterstorm in backup), also for Batterskull strategy (no life gain) plus kind of burn race.

So here is my proposition, Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth as an all-round answer, Compost as an answer to mitigate discard effect. Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth give us time, wich is all we usually need. Echoing Truth really shine against Tokens (Miracles main kill condition, even Jace can be bounced for more turns, but also against Dredge or Batterskull Token). Compost on the other hand is a very narrow answer that need more testing, but it could be very strong.

My 75 :

//Creature (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

//Instant (24)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Sorcery (6)
2 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

//Land (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 3 Compost
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex

Let me know what do you think about.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

First, I want to fight black (Team America, Jund, and Co.). They have discard, big creatures (Tombstalker) we cant really deal with and efficient removal (Abrupt Decay). Second, I want to fight Miracles. Sulfuric Vortex looks like a very strong answer (with REB and Flusterstorm in backup), also for Batterskull strategy (no life gain) plus kind of burn race.
Man, the moment I read this I said to myself "I guess he's going to advice Gilded Drake, and really, I'd love to have exactly that card when my WB opponent played Tombstalker!" :smile:
But I guess Echoing Truth might work too. My only concern is that it returns alll the Goyfs, etc. and sometimes this might be disadvantage.



So here is my proposition, Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth as an all-round answer, Compost as an answer to mitigate discard effect. Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth give us time, wich is all we usually need. Echoing Truth really shine against Tokens (Miracles main kill condition, even Jace can be bounced for more turns, but also against Dredge or Batterskull Token). Compost on the other hand is a very narrow answer that need more testing, but it could be very strong.

I've thought about Compost before. My only trouble with the card is that you really want it asap, so that it gives you CA. As such, it needs to be played in multiples and I'm not sure if there's enough space.
Echoing Truth and esp. Chain of Vapor may backfire. I'm not sure if it's reasonable (cmc3 spells need to do a lot to be played), but maybe Wipe Away or Rushing River again?

[Sasan]

Kudos for the great primer!

[JPoJohnson]

Honestly I don't think RUG will ever die. It would take a lot to kill this kind of condensed power.

[GoldenCid]

I agree. Italiano may have its ups and down but i always be a continous threath.

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Zeph]

Hey everyone, I just finished a win-a-mox tournament at Just by Chance games in Waterloo and I'll be posting a tournament report later. Got top 4 outta 28 players, so overall I'm pretty happy :)

Here's my list, I'll add the match ups as I get to typing them later:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforests
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fire // Ice

Sideboard:

2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique

Alright, after some much needed sleep, I can finally write down my match up analysis from yesterday:

I was originally planning for a very "fair" meta, because when I used to play at JBC weeklys there would be lots of BWx/elf decks (such as dead guy, junk, death and taxes ft. bob, etc) so my choice for my 6 flex spots were 2 forked bolts, 2 snares, and a split between fire // ice and pierce. The forked bolts and fire // ice was to deal with all the pesky x/1s in the format, while fire // ice gave me the option to tap down their creatures to get the final points of damage in, or to pitch to fow. I feel that the 2 snares worked out very well for me because there's just so many 2 drops that are must answer for thresh, and that even though it can be a dead card sometimes, it is well worth it to fit it into the main. I used to run 2 pierce and 1 snare because there was more combo decks in the meta, but I changed it once I saw a lot more fair decks. My sideboard is pretty standard, but if you guys have any questions regarding choices + numbers feel free to ask.

Round One vs Andrew Yu on Affinity Ft. Somber Hoverguard and Blood Scrivener(!!)

Game one he won the die roll, and I had no idea what he was on. I keep a hand of 6 with delver, fetch, volc, fow, stifle, bolt. He plops down an ancient den, 2 ornithopters, 1 memnite, 1 mox opal, and a cranial plating. Dropping 6 cards T1 seems pretty good, so I forced the plating pitching stifle because stifle seems pretty dead in this match up. I play my volc and delver and pass the turn. He draws and plays a somber hoverguard and swings in with his memnite. On my turn I blind flip my delver revealing brainstorm. I bolt his hoverguard and I start going to town with my delver. I play my fetch land and pass the turn. T3 he draws and plays a springleaf drum and blood scrivener, making his hand empty. Seeing that the scrivener will probably win him the game via CA, cracked my fetch for a another volc and casted brainstorm in hoping to find counter magic (daze, fow) or a burn spell in the top 3. Nothing. He eventually drowns me in CA and his board gets too big for me to handle.

Board in: 2x rough, 1 ancient grudge, 1 krosan grip, 1 needle
Board out: 4x stifle, 1 pierce

Game two I'm on the play with a delver, fetch, fetch, daze, grudge, forked bolt. I play a delver and pass. He gets off to a slow start, only playing vault of whispers, 1 memnite and 1 vault skirge. Next turn I don't get the flip but draw a ponder. I forked bolt the memnite and vault skirge (felt goooooood) and swong with my delver. I pondered afterwards and draw another daze while keeping a goose and goyf on top. He draws and plays a seat of the synod, mox opal, plays chalice of the void on 1. I daze it. I keep hitting him with my delver while playing more threats (goose and goyf) and he eventually cant keep up.

Game three he's on the play and unloads his hand with land, mox opal, springleaf drum, orni, memnite, signal pest, and somber hoverguard. I kept a hand with rough, ancient grudge, krosan grip, and no threats. I draw into a goose and I play a land and ponder into forked bolt, another goose and a daze. Next turn he plays chalice at 1, and I let it resolve, and he starts to hit hard: 7 dmg from his creatures. On my turn I play rough to clear off half his board and halve his clock and pass. He plays a cranial plating and attaches it on to his hoverguard and swung, bringing me down to 8. Next turn I grudge his CotV and flashbacks on the plating (value!). He starts losing steam but still comes in for 3, bringing me down to 5. I play 2 geese, and bolt his hoverguard. He starts to chump with his ornithopters that he draws on my geese but can't find another plating (but I still had krosan grip in hand to deal) and I win the match.
1-0, 2-1-0

Round Two vs Troy Warrington on Tezz Affinity

(I didn't know that so many people were on affinity today... I would've packed more grudges in the board....)
I lose the die roll, and he just overruns me with 2 orni, signal pest, and etched champion w/ plating. I didn't have the fow for the champion or plating and my threats came down too late. I died T4 only playing a goose and fork bolting his signal pest. I also mulled to 5, so that might be the reason for the quick loss.

Board in: 2x rough, 1x grudge, 1x grip, 1x needle
Board out: 4x stifle, 1x pierce

Game 2 I keep a good 7 on the play: delver, land, land, daze, ponder, needle, fork bolt. I play my delver and pass. He plays a land, mox opal, signal pest and vault skirge. I daze his skirge. Next turn I blind flip the delver revealing a rough, he doesn't seem too happy to see that card. I swing and then play needly naming plating, next turn he plays a land and master of etherium (4/4) currently and passes. I draw a goyf and I play it down to road block the master and keep hitting him with my delver. He eventually gets a champion online but his clock is too slow compared to my delver and I take game 2. At one point he attempts to play a tezz and CotV on 1 but I forced and snare it. At the end of the game he reveals his hand to me and he had 2 platings in his hand. Rough (pun intended).

Game 3 we both mull to 5, but my hand was land land, goose, goyf, bolt. He's on the play and plays a ancient den and signal pest. I play land and goose. He draws and passes, yikes. I play land bolt his skirge and play another goose. He draws and passes again. I play a goyf and swing with my geese. He draws for the 3rd time and scoops. He had a hand with all threats but he didn't draw any free artifacts and other mana sources.
2-0, 4-2-0

Round Three vs. Eric Lin on Miracles

Eric (the miracles pilot) is a very close friend of mine and we always playtest these two decks against each other, so we both kinda know how this match up is going to turn out. When I see that we're paired, we both just laugh and say how in every tournament we play in, we always get paired one way or another. Since I already know he's on miracles, we start off playing casually.

He wins the die roll and takes game one via 2 angels but my delver gets him down to 8. He has jace back up to seal my fate. He also got countertop online so g1 was pretty brutal. I knew that preboard was my best chance of beating him, so this was pretty depressing for me. Going into post-board I know he has a lot of hate for this deck so I'm just preparing for the worst.

Board in: 2x pyroblast, 1x REB, 1x needle, 1x clique, 1x grip
Board out: 1x pierce, 2x fow, 2x goyf, 1x forked bolt

Game two I land an early delver online and a goose while eric did nothing. He finally plays a clique after my draw step and takes a forked bolt out of my hand. I bolt his clique and continue my onslaught. He tries to play a counterbalance which meets my fow, pitching a daze. I eventually get him down to 4 life but he REBs my delver and resolves a rest in peace, shrinking my goose. I land a grip on the RIP and try to attack with my goose. He flashes in a snapcaster to trade. I get 2 goyfs on the field and they start to grow in size again. He gets off an entreat for 2 angels to go on the defensive. I think he got greedy because he attacked with one angel on one turn and then on my turn I swung with my goyfs for lethal. He blocks one with an angel and another by flashing in a snapcaster, but I force it.

Game three he plays island top. I play a volc and needle naming top. Then he plays land go and I get a delver and goose on the field and start attacking. He keeps playing lands but he rips an engineered explosives! I puts it on 1 and I don't have the counter magic for it, so I get 3 for 1ed. He entreats for 1 angel and I end up wasting 4 burn spells on it. The first two was bolt + forked bolt, which were both met by a flusterstorm. Then I drew into two more bolts in order to take care of the angel, since it was dealing heaps of damage to me. I don't draw into anything else useful while he has RIP on the field. He gets me down to 2 from the angel and flashes in a snapcaster EOT to kill me.
2-1, 5-4-0

Round Four vs Ben Winokur on Team America (BUG Delver)

I used to playtest a lot with Ben (TA pilot) and I knew he was going to be on TA, so this match was going to a war of attrition, but in testing he generally had the edge over cause of the decays and tombstalkers (if unanswered).

He won the die roll, which would've been very advantageous for him but game one he mulls to 4 (ouch), and I kept a hand of delver, goose, land, land, stifle, waste, bolt. He led with a drs and I bolt it. He plays another land and passes. I play a delver and goose. He plays a land and passes. I eventually get my delver to flip and I waste/stifle him out of the game.

Board in: 2x Submerge, 2x Pyroblast, 1x REB
Board out: 4x Dazes, 1x Fire // Ice

Game 2 was much more interesting since we both kept hands of 7, he was able to get 2 goyfs online while I only had a goose and a delver. He swung with his goyfs for lethal, and I had to block with my goose and goyf, and main phase 2 he disfigures my goyf D: . That made me pretty sad.

Board in: 4x Dazes
Board out: 4x Fow

Game 3 was probably the best game of magic I had the entire day. I play a delver and he passes. He plays drs and I daze it. I dont get the blind flip but I do get to waste his land with stifle in my hand. He plays a usea and a delver. I draw into a daze, flipping my delver and swing. Next turn he decays my delver, and flips his and he starts to go on the offensive. I get a goose (with thresh) online and trade with his delver since he stopped swinging (terrible misplay on my part). Eventually, he gets another delver and goyf on the field, while I have pyroblast, bolt and forked bolt in hand but no red sources to cast them. When I was down to 2 life, I rip a foothills and I fetch to blast the delver. I have my own goyf on the field so they're both just staring each other down. The board gets into a stalemate but I get to play 2 delvers, which both of them were disfigured. I eventually get another red source to bolt + forked bolt to deal with his goyf and I start to swing in. He had an unflipped delver on the field for 4 turns and it didn't get to flip. If he did it would've probably won the game. That game was intense and it could've gone to any player. So many people were watching us too lol.
3-1, 7-5-0

Round Five vs Derek Lansche on Elves

I know Derek, and he's very good with elves. We ID the match so that we can draw into top 8, since he's 2nd in standings and I have good breakers. Thank goodness cause the elves MU is terrible for us. Haha
3-1-1, 7-5-1

Top 8 Vs Geroge Large on ANT

I was seating 7th in the top 8 and we were playing with the modified play-draw rule, so he got to choose to be on the play. He plays an island and preordain, so I put him on some type of combo. I kept a very slow hand of goose, goose, land, land, goyf, fow, ponder. Next turn he plays a swamp and duresses me, now I know he's on ANT for sure. I don't force it because he's going to take my fow anyways, which he does. My turn I play a goose and swing, then ponder hoping for some type of counter magic. Nope, All I see are lands so I shuffle away and I draw a land. Expecting the worse, his turn 3 was just him casting brainstorm, then ponder and passing the turn. I eventually get a board with 2 goyfs (3/4), 2 geese (non thresh), and he goes through 12(!!) cantrips but can't seem to find an infernal tutor or Ad Nauseam to go off.

Board in: 2x pyroblast, 1x REB, 1x flusterstorm, 1x clique
Board out: 1x Fire // Ice, 2x forked bolt, 2x stifle

Game 2 I kept a slow hand with goose, land, land, daze, and REB. He plays a land and ponders, then passes. I play my goose and pass. Next turn he plays land and DR, DR, DR into duress, taking REB. Then he AD Nauseams into 4 LEDs, more duresses, tendrils, and petals. He goes through the motions and kills me by eleven-drilsing me.

Game 3 I kept a double delver, land, daze, brainstorm, waste hand on a mull to 6. I play a delver and pass. He plays preordain and I daze it. I don't get the blind flip and play another delver, and waste his usea. He plays another usea and ponders into nothing. On my upkeep I cast brainstorm, hoping there's an instant or sorcery somewhere in the top 3 cause I don't have any in my hand. first card was goyf, second was wasteland... and third was another brainstorm! So lucky that was something to turn on my delvers. Now I have 2 flipped delvers and they start to hit hard. He plays another ponder and passes. I draw the second wasteland to waste his sea and swing for 6 again. He drops an island to brainstorm, and then concedes to me since he couldn't find an infernal tutor. He shows me his hand with a ton of rituals and lotus petals, if he had tutor he'd be able to get past in flames and go off.
4-1-1, 9-6-1

Got to the top 4 to split, getting $137 in store credit, so I just got a bunch of foils for my peasant cube and other goodies like TNN, Tops, etc.

Some final thoughts: Forked bolt did a lot of work again in a lot of my match ups, but I think it's because I was preparing for the meta with a lot of x/1s. Even though it wasn't the creatures that I was expecting, it still ended up being very good (against affinity and BUG). The snares also hit a lot of key targets (CotV), goyfs, CB, etc) and those are pretty game breaking against us so I would strongly recommend trying to fit in some number of snares in your 75. If I were go to again, I think I would take out the pierce because it didn't really do too much for me. Most of the time it just sat in my hand doing nothing other than fodder to pitch to fow. The same applies for fire//ice. I tend to side out that card the most and never found the ice part to be relevant. I didn't get to pitch it because I needed it for the fire part, so I think I would've been better off if I had just played 3 forked bolts instead. The 2 grafdiggers in the board didn't see any play, so many I would've gone down to 1 of them and bump up the count on my artifact/enchantment removal.

Thanks for reading, if you have any questions feel free to ask, I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities.

Ps. I never got to go first via die roll, I'm terrible at rolling dice :(

[kravkenov]

Man, the moment I read this I said to myself "I guess he's going to advice Gilded Drake, and really, I'd love to have exactly that card when my WB opponent played Tombstalker!" :smile:
But I guess Echoing Truth might work too. My only concern is that it returns alll the Goyfs, etc. and sometimes this might be disadvantage.

I've thought about Compost before. My only trouble with the card is that you really want it asap, so that it gives you CA. As such, it needs to be played in multiples and I'm not sure if there's enough space.
Echoing Truth and esp. Chain of Vapor may backfire. I'm not sure if it's reasonable (cmc3 spells need to do a lot to be played), but maybe Wipe Away or Rushing River again?

Gilded Drake is way to much narrow and conditionnal. I dont advise for it unless Sneak-Show, Reanimator and other Big cheated creature are the rules in your meta :p

As said, Compost at first sight it is a great card against black, but it is really that strong to take 2 or 3 sideboard slot ? I dont know yet, but I'm working on it ;)

Wipe Away were initially put in place of Echoing Truth because of Split Second, but being a 3 cmc 1UU is a big drawback. This is why I moved to Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth, both do a good job, sometime tricky when cast in answer to Liliana ability or other right timed play :) Returning all instance is exactly why I think Echoing Truth is the way to go : Miracles, Dredge and Batterskull get the hit. Chain of Vapor give a too big edge by allowing our opponent to sacrifice a land and use it back against us (because our opponent usually have way more land than us).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Zeph, thanks for an interesting report, congratulation on your result.
I wouldn't call Spell Pierce a dead weight. The card has its applications, and even though it didn't serve you well, it works against lots of usual cards in Legacy, be it FoW, Liliana, Terminus, Bolt, Swords, Top or any other threat that Snare cannot hit.

Well, markkugel, my main trouble with Echoing Truth is that it may be bad in Goyf stalls, where we don't want to return our own Goyf. I'm cosidering Vapor Snag, but that card is strange, moreover it can't hit Liliana, Chalice, Jace or any other annoying permanent we need to get rid of.
I am very interested in your test results with the aforementioned cards!

[HammafistRoob]

Played in a 77 person dual land tournament yesterday, I went 0-2 drop. Played against the mirror in round 1 where I won game 1, lost a close game 2 when he double Bolted me for exactsies the turn before I killed him. Then he crushed me game 3 after countering and killing a Goose Goyf and Delver :(. Round 2 was against Death and Taxes, I won game 1 easily but he won a close game 2 and Wasted me out game 3. In that third game an interesting line came up where he had a Waste and Plains to my Volcanic. On my turn I could either Ponder for a Land or hold up Stifle without advancing my board at all, I went for the Ponder and saw 3 Geese, shuffled, and didn't get another land for like 4 turns and died. I would like opinions on situations like this one, as it turns out I would have lost anyways drawing 3 straight Geese with no way to cast them but it doesn't mean I took the correct line.

I did however win a single elimination side event for a Tropical Island, beating the mirror 2-0, once when he had a triple Delver draw. I also beat Sneak and Show 2-0 and Goblins 2-0 so overall it was a good day going 8-4 in games. Here's the list I ran-

//LANDS-18
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta

//CREATURES-12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

//COUNTERS-16
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

//CANTRIPS-8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

//REMOVAL-6
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

//SIDEBOARD-15
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

The list felt solid all day but the Snare got boarded out a lot and the only time I drew Dismember I was at 5 life vs. the mirror so I never casted it. I think another Forked Bolt in that slot would be better. Pierce was great all day and the 3 Rough turned out to be a great meta call as there was Elves and D&T everywhere, with some Merfolk, Goblins, and Dredge mixed in as well.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Good job, congrats on your new Tropical Island.

I feel like thre's nothing missing. The 2/2 Spell Pierce/Snare split I used is good for an unknown metagame (and as I was to zero 40+ ppl tournaments for well over a year, this was a complete blind call). Three Pierces must work wonders in combo/control field.
I'm not really fond of zero graveyard hate. Also one and only Needle might be wrong, but this depends on your play style. I love to play two, as there are matchups (like DnT, Top.dec or anything with Lili/Deed) where you want it asap. Also, I'm surprised you completely resigned on Cage. I know that three Roughs may be enough, but I'd be afraid that Elves may go crazy if left unchecked for turn or two: GSZ and NO are real cards.
I won't offer you any special opinion on Dismember. It's good when it's good, but other times... it's not good. I guess you needed it as with only one Snare, Goyfs and Germs might sneak into play. I never really liked it, as the life loss hurts and there's not enough versatility other than the fact that it's the only removal playable by Wasteland. (Ok, and it kills Tombstalker...)
How the four Blasts served you? It's quite an overkill, and if it's for TNN and CB, I'd be interested in your boarding plans.

Oh, and on your question: I'd also Ponder. You can't afford sit there doing nothing.

[Exuberance]

I've actually tried Compost a couple times. Wasn't a fan. I'd rather just Spell Pierce discard spells or Brainstorm the good stuff to the top.

One main deck Echoing Truth seems like a reasonable thing to test. Not liking Chain of Vapor very much. Getting flipped Delvers bounced in return makes me sad.

[poxy14]

1st place yesterday (14 man tourney) (4-0) with TAR-RUG-Oh (tarfires and tarmogoyfs!)
won me my last Burning Wish for my belcher deck and some BotG packs (crap expansion!)

MD = 2 pierce, 1 snare, 2 tarfires, 4 goyfs, 3 mongoose, 1 TNN......rest is standard
SB =
1 envelop (snt heavy meta)
1 surgical (dropped grafs as i was expecting no elves in the room)
1 v.cliq (interchangeable with sulfur but saw no white deck inside
3 rebs
1 pierce
2 submerges
1 grudge
1 revelry
2 roughs
1 snare
1 needle
....i'll change this still, this is the fun part in RUG! constructing weapons in the sb's....

round 1 (2-0 vs monogreen stompy)
turn 1 he dropped a nettle sentinel, and blamed myself why did i bench those forked bolts......well upon dropping a rancor next turn, i knew it was a different deck...
goyfs are wall vs this deck, and with delvers flying everywhere, it was an easy victory...

round 2 (2-0 vs ANT)
managed to stifle his fetches, wasted brass and any land that hits the floor, so my pierce and daze are of more value when i needed to counter..
benched goose and goyfs/delver finished him off 2 games...

round 3 (2-1 vs UWR Patriot)
conceded G1, opponent down to 5 but managed to resolve a batterskull in which i have no answer.... now im gonna call my destroyers...

G2 was an exciting race, he never drew RIP and goyfs came a bit late to do the work, but facing 2 delvers, i was running out of life...fortunately my opponent misplayed by attacking a flipped and an unflipped insect...i traded my unflipped delver to the unflipped one..he should have waited for it to flip next turn... few more turns 2 goyfs would seal the deal so his lone delver stayed home and blocked, he drew a bolt and im down to 1 but that was it...

G3 mulled to 6, kept 2 lands, goose, goose, goyf, goyf.....was a grindy match once again as he never drew counters to my burn, killing every delver and sfm that landed, he managed to resolve an RIP, gladly i wasnt able to cast goyfs yet and with a brainstorm, i flushed em out, instead drawing more answers....reb's his tnn, and on 4 lands with a misty he cracked it, i knew it was batterskull...i stifle, he countered, he fowd making him down to 1 that turn, but i still have another stifle on hand and im into the finals! last cards in my hand are grudge, tarfire, stifle, stifle.....sick!


finals vs fellow teamate kitz (2-1 monoU omnitell)
lost g1 where i kept a good hand with lots of cantrips, but never drew answers to SHOW....
g2 boarded out all my stifles as i didnt see any fetches, bolts and delvers made a fast clock.....this is when i saw 2 mistyRF that he cracked : (
g3 out bolts, back in 4 stifles......at just 2 lands i was able to counter 4 times...i have 2 delvers opening hand but didnt bother to drop em and play a more conservative approach on this one...when he's bout to go off he casted SHOW, i enveloped, he pierced (1 mana available) i pierced back (no more manas for me), he swansonged, i dazed (not targetting swansong of course!) he fowed, i dazed once more!...2 more turns and my delvers ravaged the skies with a new friend beside them...a swan song token!

amazing day it is! careful planning and tight plays makes for a successful run that very day. til then!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Congratulations Poxy! Well played.
The only thing that surprises me is that you didn't even try to play at least one Delver, but knowing how hard SnT might be, and reading the part that confirms it, I guess it was a right call, esp. when you were on the draw. Btw, are the Bolts necessary? I'd never side out Stifle against any blue deck, because even if I saw no fetches g1, I'd expect the opponent to play at least few of them just because of Brainstorm. (Merfolk are a different animal, yet that's where you need to protect your lands.) Also, it feeds FoW. But then again every Bolt may be a small Time Walk. IDK.

[Contract Killer]

So I've been a bit MIA lately because of 7 day work week something I'm more than glad to be done with. Now on to further matters of importance I did take RUG delver to SCG Seattle (or SCG Tacoma as a lot of locals think of it) and piloted the deck to a meager 5/4. The only thing that really bugged me was out of my eight rounds I only got to be on the play once. I lost 7 die rolls all calling high roll might need to switch to even/odd for a while or new dice hahaha :eek: Anyways on to the actual report.

Main Deck
54 core RUG
4 chain lightning
2 spell pierce

Sideboard
3 submerge
3 pyroblast
2 price of progress
2 rough and tumble
1 vendilion clique
1 grafdigger's cage
1 ancient grudge
1 flusterstorm
1 sulfur elemental


Round 1 Huey Jensen Sneak Attack 2/1
By far the highlight of the day. Game 1 I was on the draw and kept an ok hand against fair and midrange decks, but not so good against combo. He quickly resolved a turn 2 emrakul and we moved to game 2. Game 2 I played conservatively the first few turns followed by I think a turn 3 tarmogoyf. Then another tarmogoyf found it's way onto the field and that was that. Game 3 I had the solid single delver hand with all the counter magic just what we want to see.

Round 2 UW Miracles 2/0
Usually a very interesting match up that people have different views about being 50/50 or worse. Game 1 I road a goose to victory or at least within bolt range. Once he was in bolt range I had 3 bolts in hand fired the first two off which met force and counterspell finally the third made it hahaha. Game 2 was really funny. I had another goose out turn 1 and spent turns 2 - 3 sculpting my hand with brainstorm and ponder. Finally on his turn 5 he goes for a terminus with UUU fetch up I sit their with stifles in hand. One stifle goes for the terminus and gets hit by a counterspell. The second goes for the fetch when he tries to resolve the spell and is met with a force finally the third puts his miserable fetch out of it's misery and indirectly his terminus as well. Goose continued the beat down path and was joined by Goyf for the win.

Round 3 Omnitell 2/1 (table 1 a first for me :cool:)
Game one I had a goose win me the game again or at least carry me halfway there. The goose got him to 11 and then I dropped a goyf and a delver because I was running of countermagic. Luckily I made it another turn and had the bolt for a total 11 point swing. Game 2 was much worse I kept an ok hand, but lost fairly fast with him having force and pact of negation as countermagic back up sometimes they just have it. Game 3 I had a single delver hand again something that is just so appealing. On the other hand a defense grid made it much less appealing. I slowly beat him over the head with the delver and quickly added a tarmogoyf at which point he cunning wished and took a long time eventually settling on echoing truth. This led me to think he was still looking for at least one combo piece giving me hope. He passed I swung then he used echoing truth on the goyf which I was ok with since second main phase a vendilion clique landed the table. His hand revealed Show & Tell, Enter the infinite, force of will, and show and tell quickly was sent to the bottom of the library. Next turn vendilion clique and delver swung for the fences for the win. We talked after the match and his other option was to cunning wish for intuition which would get him there if he top decked another land or if I didn't have another threat. It was definitely and interesting decision tree that was also more complex by him losing if I had bolt :rolleyes:

Round 4 Punishing Jund 1/2 :frown:
The first bad match up of the day, but still not horrible. Game 1 he had a solid turn one thoughseize after my mulligan to six. I played a land and passed or something like that. This is bad but not horrible the back breaking card was hymn hitting both my fetch and brainstorm in hand *sigh*. That left me with Force and an unplayable goose. Game 2 was much better I had a goose lead me to victory with stifles and wastelands flying everywhere just the type of game I want against jund. Game 3 he had a really good start with deathrite, goyf and Lilyana with a hymn in there somewhere as well. I was on the back peddle too much and the crucial point where I could submerge goyf with a daze to counter it he had the thoughtsieze and picked daze. He didn't know I had a waste and submerge on top of my deck from ponder making it a live counterspell.

Round 5 BUG Delver Tempo (stifles) 2/1
Game 1 he won with a goyf + tombstalker combo something RUG has no way to come back from. In addition he also had an early stifle which caught me off guard, but I should have realized when he fetched for trop and played deathrite. Game 2 with me on the play I had a double wasteland and stifle hand which he scooped to shortly after turn 3 or 4 I think. Game 3 was much closer and price of progress actually won me it dealing 4 damage to the head after a slew of delver beats.

Round 6 Imperial Painter 0/2
This is one of the few combo decks I don't want to face. My opponent was a friend from my local game store and we both knew each others deck and the match up. This was also the only match up where chain lightning's chance of being thrown back at me became relevant. Game one he had a blood moon followed by an ensnaring bridge which sealed the deal. Game 2 he ate away at my counterspells with multiple early blood moons and finally got his comb off. Overall this match up just seems so bad they have 6 main deck blood moons, 6 force of will (8 after sb), some number of ensnaring bridges and their actual combo on top of that:frown:.

Round 7 Blast Canon, Big Red, etc 0/2
He was on the play and led with sandstone needle. This immediately screamed through the breach or other shenanigans so I played conservatively. He had a turn 2 lotus petal + seething song into sneak attack playing around my spell pierce I left up. After that he got a griselbrand into play drew 21 cards and that was that. Game 2 he just had the nuts with something like 4 must answer spells that he just fired turn after turn and wore me down with.

Round 8 Belcher 2/0
By far the easiest match up all day. Game 1 I naturally had the force in my opener. Game 2 my opener was something along the lines of force, daze, stifle, vendilion clique, brainstorm, ponder and tropical island. The best part was when he used gitaxian probe and saw my hand at which point he was seriously disappointed hahaha.

Round 9 manaless dredge 0/2
At this point I was happy I thought well 5/3 I'm still in prize contention to make my money back. When I sat down and realized what I was playing against after watching him beat one of my other friends my hopes were gone. Once again manaless dredge reared it's ugly face my way :mad: . Game 1 he had griselbrand turn 3 after a cabal therapy revealing nothing relevant seeing as he was able to dread return twice via multiple zombies from narcomoeba and ichorid. Game 2 was pretty much the same thing with 3 therapies able to rip my graffdiger's cage from my hand that I found turn 2. He dredged exactly into the third therapy he needed to get through my daze and force. After playing against this deck at two different tournaments instead of facing it I've decided to just work on avoiding the x/3 bracket all together. Anything short of graffdigger's cage and we lose to this deck seeing as they can slowly amass an army of zombies and or combo off.

Overall the deck performed great to at least what I think a 5/2 finish as manaless dredge loses to so many other decks in the format it shouldn't be around and imperial painter being more of a fringe deck. Don't get me wrong though imperial painter is really competitive just not something you see everyday I mean who really wants to play mono red in legacy that's just boring. The eight bolt configuration was great it made my miracles match up a lot easier and the bug delver (tempo) easier as well. As for the sideboard I think this eight bolt plan wants something more like 2 destructive revelry in the sideboard. Aside from doing another 2 damage revelry also gives us more outs to counterbalance and allows for an out to rest in peace. We already have eight bolts main so I don't think we need 2 roughs probably 1 one would suffice. Against elves we have submerges, merfolk pyroblasts. The only match up I think we need two roughs against is d&T, but we also have sulfur elemental. By having something like 8 - 11 spot removal and 1 board wipe all those match ups seem favorable.
On another note 6 of the people from my local gamestore made top 8 which made me happy (and makes me feel a bit better about only going 3/1 every other week if that). It definitely seems like the eight bolt plan is worth exploring more I mean it allows for some serious blow outs by just having another 3 or 6 points of burn to the face. Eight bolts also makes it nearly impossible for a deathrite to make it pass turn 1 and more removal for other pesky creatures. Anyways the next big tournament is a ptq side event coming up in three weeks I think I'll play this just with a slightly different sideboard probably with destructive revelry.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Contract Killer, thanks for the report!

It surprises me how few slots people devote to the grave/Elves combined hate. After I've had my butt delivered back to me some two months ago - round1 Dredge, round2 Elves -, I decided I'll never leave my place without some protection. Nice thing is that Cage works against one DTB (Elves), one very annoying strategy (grave decks) and it's a good splash hate against PiF based combo.

Interesting how the 8-Lightning plan worked for you. With Delver being already fragile enough, I still can't force myself to try it. Also, I had lots and lots of success with Forked Bolt, I'd love to up the count somehow to three of them. Other than Serra Avenger, there isn't any x/3 creature I'd know and care about, and as long as I use my burn mostly as removal, I think I'll stay away from Chain Lightning.

[Purgatory]

Primer in OP updated with a section about inevitability and roles. More to come, stay tuned!

[poxy14]

The only thing that surprises me is that you didn't even try to play at least one Delver, but knowing how hard SnT might be, and reading the part that confirms it, I guess it was a right call, esp. when you were on the draw. Btw, are the Bolts necessary? I'd never side out Stifle against any blue deck, because even if I saw no fetches g1, I'd expect the opponent to play at least few of them just because of Brainstorm. (Merfolk are a different animal, yet that's where you need to protect your lands.) Also, it feeds FoW. But then again every Bolt may be a small Time Walk. IDK.
.
Thanks my friend, yup being on the draw without any daze that moment, i can already see himself go offturn two, that,s why i shifted to a more consrvative approach..patience did pay off..i also thought of havin them bolts would increase my clock, knowing he wasnt fetching anything...and did put back the necessary adjustments come final game by goin back to stifles..

[carefulmug]

@Bed Decks

It's not quite the same as running a third FB in the main, but, as an option, there are a number of lists on tcdecks that placed pretty high that run 1-2 FB main and a remaining 1-3 FB in the side. The 6 flex spots tend eschew Spell Snare for a mixture of Spell Pierce, Gitaxian Probe, and Forked Bolt in these lists.

Maybe 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Spell Snare, 3 Forked Bolt would work?

[poxy14]

@Bed Decks
Maybe 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Spell Snare, 3 Forked Bolt would work?

my burn list last sunday was 4 bolts / 2 tarfires / 1 f/ice with 2 pierce/1 snare... AND IT WORKED!
im a real fan of forked bolts, but my tweak was purely a meta call... we have scouted well that day, that there were no green or white armies present..
im also liking the lone snare MD and 1 more copy in the side lately.... i tried Bedecks list and put back those snares to battle burning wish, infernals, grids... again, the meta was scouted as unfair... yet 2 junks appeared (fair) (glad i didnt face any) so snare was a good inclusion that very day.

[Contract Killer]

In that third game an interesting line came up where he had a Waste and Plains to my Volcanic. On my turn I could either Ponder for a Land or hold up Stifle without advancing my board at all, I went for the Ponder and saw 3 Geese, shuffled, and didn't get another land for like 4 turns and died. I would like opinions on situations like this one, as it turns out I would have lost anyways drawing 3 straight Geese with no way to cast them but it doesn't mean I took the correct line.


Personally I think you took the correct line. It's a sketchy situation at best one of those damned if you damned if you don't. D&T has the luxury of also possibly having rishadan port which makes leaving up stifle bad. You can risk doing nothing while giving them time to advance their board state. They have inevitability in destroying your land the best thing you can do is find more land and try to progress your board state. Same thing against something like jund if you pass they could have some discard which would also make stifle bad.

[Contract Killer]

Interesting how the 8-Lightning plan worked for you. With Delver being already fragile enough, I still can't force myself to try it. Also, I had lots and lots of success with Forked Bolt, I'd love to up the count somehow to three of them. Other than Serra Avenger, there isn't any x/3 creature I'd know and care about, and as long as I use my burn mostly as removal, I think I'll stay away from Chain Lightning.

See forked bolt has never done anything for me that chain lightning couldn't do. The one damage it shoots to the head is very marginal and I've never gotten a two for one with it. Elves always has a symbiote out it seems like and I only net that while the other x/1 is bounced. Death & Taxes I always want to fire it off against their turn 1 mother and after that the other creatures they play sfm, thalia, flickerwisp etc are all going to be coming one at a time. The first two you really don't want to let them untap with and the third should be killed to let the skies be clear for our delvers. Chain lightning on the other hand gives us more reach for the fair match ups that we're not favored in. We all agree that game one against combo isn't nearly as important as game one against fair decks. Combo is so much easier for us to beat and chain lightnings make the other fair match ups so much better by having increased reach.

As for beating TNN I seriously think our best bet it to just go over the top with bolts. In the sideboard we have tools in price of progress and pyroblast. We are the fastest tempo deck and can out race UWR delver and BUG delver why not just jam price? Both of those decks play TNN and both extend consistently to 3 - 5 lands leading to an easy 6 - 10 damage we can aim at their head.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ Contract Killer: Yes, I do unerstand your reasoning. It's just that I had lots of two-for-ones during my 6+1 rounds and on several occasions I got Thalia AND Spirit of Labyrinth with one Forked Bolt. Guess what... that was sweet! :smile:
I like the PoP in sb. Really good tool how to outrace TNN.

[Contract Killer]

@ Contract Killer: Yes, I do unerstand your reasoning. It's just that I had lots of two-for-ones during my 6+1 rounds and on several occasions I got Thalia AND Spirit of Labyrinth with one Forked Bolt. Guess what... that was sweet! :smile:
I like the PoP in sb. Really good tool how to outrace TNN.

Ok that makes sense maybe I'm just too conservative with the card when I see thalia drop. I just always want to kill thalia on sight to free up mana down the road for cantrips and the occasional counter.

[Contract Killer]

So this isn't RUG delver related exactly, but anybody else baffled by the scg LA top 8? I mean at least three decks in there manaless dredge :mad:, belcher :confused: and Food chain bug :really: don't really seem top8 material. So food chain bug I can kind of get I've played against it and it's literally like playing against shardless bug but instead of planeswalkers they just vomit out tons of creatures. I just don't get how did manaless dredge dodge rest in peace and how did belcher dodge Force? There's also the chance that people just weren't playing good decks lols

[Purgatory]

So this isn't RUG delver related exactly, but anybody else baffled by the scg LA top 8? I mean at least three decks in there manaless dredge :mad:, belcher :confused: and Food chain bug :really: don't really seem top8 material. So food chain bug I can kind of get I've played against it and it's literally like playing against shardless bug but instead of planeswalkers they just vomit out tons of creatures. I just don't get how did manaless dredge dodge rest in peace and how did belcher dodge Force? There's also the chance that people just weren't playing good decks lols

I think the stream, with mono-U Weenies was pretty hilarious.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok that makes sense maybe I'm just too conservative with the card when I see thalia drop. I just always want to kill thalia on sight to free up mana down the road for cantrips and the occasional counter.

Depends. Soemtimes I don't really care of her (when I have battlefield and grip full of lands) sometimes she came after the SotL, other times I was light on removal, so I saved it to 2-for-1 him, there were games where I had double Goyf out and a Grudge in hand, so a 2/1 dude din't matter, etc.
Otoh, in early game I always burn her at sight, as she creates very uncofortable environment.

On the Top8: I lack words.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yesterday I played RUG in our lgs. Fifteen players, four rounds, list as follows:

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


I thought I won't come, esp. as I lacked one Volcanic Island that I sold. But then I came home and the Volcanics were waiting for me in my mailbox, so I phoned Slosh and we agreed to meet.

R1, Matěj, bUrg
Quite not a dude that I really like.
g1, otp, keep7: I bolted his DRS, but he got three Delvers which my one and only couldn't neither race nor stop.
sb: Pyroblasts, Subemrges, Rough (he plays both DRS and Bob), out some mix of week cards. I kept SPierce, though, expectingStifle... and I was wrong.
g2, otp, keep7: I started with fetch, his turn 1 Devler I Blasted after I Wasted his land. I bolted Grim, then I ran Mongoose into Daze. TNN was Pyroed, then two Mongooses won this for me.
sb: Some Daze/FoW switches.
g3, otd, keep7: I FBed DRS, then I was hit by Thoughtseize. I misplayed Ponder, which led me to play DElver instead of keeping Stifle mana open. Wti this misplay, he got of the mana lock and overran me with Bob's CA.
Loss, 0:1.


R2, cool dude, Patriot
g1, otd, keep6:I FBed SFM that found Jitte which I Pierced later. Delver flipped of another FB, then my Goyf was FoWed. On my opponents eight life I had Bolt, Bolt, FB, so I won.
sb: in Ancient Artifact Mutation, Pyroblasts, out some mix of Dazes and crap.
g2, otd, keep6: I Wasted two Tundras, but then I was stuck on one Trop. I saved one via Stifle+Daze trick when he tried to Waste it. Wit hs till no Volc out I got hit by RiP, but my two Mongooses got there. although one of them exchanged for a Delver. My opponent ended this game with three Bolts and two Swords in hand... aye, I like Mongooses.
Win, 1:1.


R3, Slosh, ANT
This was one of the most unlucky match ever: g1 (otd, keep7) I lost after I played a Delver and got Slosh down to five when he PiFed me out of game. I SBed some anticombo tools plus Roughs, but during our g2, Slosh made 8 gobbos on is nine life to buy some time and then on his four life he ToA me for twenty with a Bolt-support. Nice one.
Thankfully he was in a hurry, so he conceded to me... (Win, 2:1.)

...but did not leave before we played several games on unlimited mana minimaster with the two Theros boosters he won on last Sat.
My pool was Horizon and Spellheart Chimera amongst the others, with a rare being Hundered-Handed One. The games were fast and funny, the unlimited mana makes for some pretty absurd situation with monstrous creatures. Slosh got some 10/7 dude (or something like that), and many more 4/5s and 6/3s and similar many/much dudes were running amokon both sides of table. Hundred-Handed One gave lots and lots of high fives, but I still lost the minimaster minimatch.


R4, Tom, UW Miracles.
When we rode from the lgs later that night, we talked about this mu. "It's pretty bad matchup, isn't it?" asked a friend of mine. "Yes, it is," I agreed. "For which player?" asked a second friend. "For both of them," was my answer.
g1, otd, keep7: I remember an amazing battle over Stifle, but that's about it. I Dazed a CB, too, and then I simply tapped Mongoose and Goyf and other Goyf until the game was over.
sb: anticontrol tools in, burn out.
g2,otd, keep7: Although Tom mulled to five, he still offered quite some resistance. Fortunately I was able to stop Terminus, so my sole Devler got there.


For my efforts I won some 15 bucks of store credit. (I think I was fourth or third.)

MVP: Forked Bolt and Mongoose. Also, Stifle rocks.

[carefulmug]

This is an idea I had a few months ago but never pursued. Curious what the thread might think of this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

4 Ponder

8 Fetch
6 Dual
4 Waste

Essentially, -4 Tarmogoyf, -4 Flex spot, +4 Dreadnought, +4 Trickbind.

Pros for running Goyf:

+Varies CMC slightly in case of active Counterbalance
+Consistent beater: you pay 2 mana, you get a 4/5. Done.
+1:1 in case it is destroyed; ie, minimal card investment

Cons for running Goyf:

-Folds to RiP
-Spell Snare target (marginal, but applicable)
-Occasionally creates locked board states; ie, goyf vs. goyf, goyf vs. batterskull, goyf vs. TNN

Pros for running Dreadnought//Trickbind:

+Double the Stifle effect
+2-turn clock in a deck that hinges on taking advantage of early game tempo plays; Helps close out the game before the mid-late game is achieved.
+Tramples over TNN; Negates opposing Batterskulls.
+RiP proof creature, additional answers to RiP and the like in Trickbind.
+Additional answers to Terminus

Cons for Dreadnought//Trickbind:

-Potentially 2:1 card disadvantage if Dreadnought is destroyed
-Redundant Stifle effects when Stifle effects are dead.
-Potentially cluttered hands

There are more pros and cons for each, but I figured this is enough to get the ball rolling.

Other variations could be: 2 Dreadnought, 2 Tarmogoyf; 3 Dreadnought, 1 Island; 1 Dreadnought, 3 Tarmogoyf...

And why this variation of Canadian as opposed to going full Stiflenought? Probably Nimble Mongoose.

[Exuberance]

This is an idea I had a few months ago but never pursued. Curious what the thread might think of this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

4 Ponder

8 Fetch
6 Dual
4 Waste

-2 Trickbind +2 anything else I think? Four Trickbind seems like way too many.

But I actually like it. Maybe even cut a Dreadnaught too for something.

[carefulmug]

In playing w/ the four Dreadnought, the four additional stifle effects are necessary simply because of our aggressive usage of Stifle as dictated by our game plan. With that in mind, I was thinking:

2 Dreadnought, 2 Tarmogoyf, 2 Trickbind, 2 Gitaxian Probe.

Or, 1 Dreadnought, 3 Tarmogoyf.

The G. Probe could be whatever assortment of flex spot cards we typically like, but I believe G.Probe is be best suited for this configuration since it helps get us to three land in the instance that we have Dreadnought + Trickbind in hand, and/or, it allows us to see the opponent's hand so we don't run a Dreadnought into removal.

With all of these, particularly the 3 Tarmogoyf configuration, additional Goyfs can reside in SB in case of Goblins and the like.

[Contract Killer]

This is an idea I had a few months ago but never pursued. Curious what the thread might think of this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

4 Ponder

8 Fetch
6 Dual
4 Waste

Essentially, -4 Tarmogoyf, -4 Flex spot, +4 Dreadnought, +4 Trickbind.

Pros for running Goyf:

+Varies CMC slightly in case of active Counterbalance
+Consistent beater: you pay 2 mana, you get a 4/5. Done.
+1:1 in case it is destroyed; ie, minimal card investment

Cons for running Goyf:

-Folds to RiP
-Spell Snare target (marginal, but applicable)
-Occasionally creates locked board states; ie, goyf vs. goyf, goyf vs. batterskull, goyf vs. TNN

Pros for running Dreadnought//Trickbind:

+Double the Stifle effect
+2-turn clock in a deck that hinges on taking advantage of early game tempo plays; Helps close out the game before the mid-late game is achieved.
+Tramples over TNN; Negates opposing Batterskulls.
+RiP proof creature, additional answers to RiP and the like in Trickbind.
+Additional answers to Terminus

Cons for Dreadnought//Trickbind:

-Potentially 2:1 card disadvantage if Dreadnought is destroyed
-Redundant Stifle effects when Stifle effects are dead.
-Potentially cluttered hands

There are more pros and cons for each, but I figured this is enough to get the ball rolling.

Other variations could be: 2 Dreadnought, 2 Tarmogoyf; 3 Dreadnought, 1 Island; 1 Dreadnought, 3 Tarmogoyf...

And why this variation of Canadian as opposed to going full Stiflenought? Probably Nimble Mongoose.

It's definitely interesting. We're less dependent on graveyard hate, but our threat average cmc went from like one to I don't know three or something. We no long have a consistent two mana threat because half the time it might be a 3 mana threat. On the other hand if you have trickbind and they're playing in the blind dreadnaught could easily be counterproof by them thinking "oh I'll just counter stifle" then bam split second slaps them across the face :tongue: :eek: . We still lose to the common removal that you see that goyf would die to swords (12 life does help though :wink:) abrupt decay and Liliana. It's more vulnerable to hand disruption since it's kind of a two card combo. I might try playing it for fun in a few weeks. Currently I'm trying to decide between an 8 bolt delver plan or some other flex spots for a ptq legacy side event with duals for prizes coming up.

[carefulmug]

I'm glad people like the idea. Time will tell if it is viable.

@ Contract Killer:

The avg threat cost, which w/ Tarmogoyf is 1.33...would, with 4x Dreadnought, increase to 1.5 assuming half the time we cast a Nought it is with a Stifle, and half the time it is with a Trickbind. Which, in the world of Thresh, can be a significant increase, but I'd waver not much more than we see with lists opting out of 1-2 Tarms or Mongeese for copies of TNN. Hence, though, a possible configuration being 3 Dreadnought, 1 Island.

As far as discard is concerned, you are correct, it could be a problem, as would Abrupt Decay. Against BUG and Jund, perhaps 2 Divert could come in from the board to replace 2 Spell Pierce. I'm actually not worried about Liliana (in theory) due to the increase in Stifle effects.

You are correct about Trickbind creating for a counterless Dreadnought in precisely the situation you described. It used to happen to me in my favor in t1 matches a few years back.

As far as what to play for your upcoming tournament, I believe the three best variations we currently have available to us are:

8x bolt plan: Chain Lightning if in a field of Delver, Forked Bolt if facing down numerous Elves and DnT decks

Bed Deck's 2x Pierce, 2x Snare, 2x Forked Bolt plan (simple, diverse, and effective against a wide meta)

Or the 2x Pierce, 3x G. Probe, 1x Fire//Ice plan (Best, I believe, for a long tournament by helping ease mental strain and adding confidence in decision making)

+++++


Is Spell Pierce really a flex spot? While it is not integral to the deck, I don't think I've ever seen it cut. I've been thinking the deck really only has 4 flex spots.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd be really really interested in some further tests with the Dreadnought version.

Btw, a friend of mine used to play that when pre-TNN Folks were The Big Deck. Instead of bothering with Lavamancer and Rough or w/e, he simply slammed down the turn2 Nought and rode it for the victory. No one, and I', 100% serious, no one ever boarded artifact removal against Thresh, so this was pretty poerful sb tactic.
Otoh, it was before Abrupt Decay. This card changes a lot. Uncounterable is what really hurts. (Not hat Submerge is any better, but at least you may Force it.) I think that for this plan to work, you either need a Decay-less metagame, or Misdirection somewhere in your 75.

@ all: If you'll try this, let us know how it went!

[Contract Killer]

I'm glad people like the idea. Time will tell if it is viable.

@ Contract Killer:

The avg threat cost, which w/ Tarmogoyf is 1.33...would, with 4x Dreadnought, increase to 1.5 assuming half the time we cast a Nought it is with a Stifle, and half the time it is with a Trickbind. Which, in the world of Thresh, can be a significant increase, but I'd waver not much more than we see with lists opting out of 1-2 Tarms or Mongeese for copies of TNN. Hence, though, a possible configuration being 3 Dreadnought, 1 Island.

As far as discard is concerned, you are correct, it could be a problem, as would Abrupt Decay. Against BUG and Jund, perhaps 2 Divert could come in from the board to replace 2 Spell Pierce. I'm actually not worried about Liliana (in theory) due to the increase in Stifle effects.

You are correct about Trickbind creating for a counterless Dreadnought in precisely the situation you described. It used to happen to me in my favor in t1 matches a few years back.

As far as what to play for your upcoming tournament, I believe the three best variations we currently have available to us are:

8x bolt plan: Chain Lightning if in a field of Delver, Forked Bolt if facing down numerous Elves and DnT decks

Bed Deck's 2x Pierce, 2x Snare, 2x Forked Bolt plan (simple, diverse, and effective against a wide meta)

Or the 2x Pierce, 3x G. Probe, 1x Fire//Ice plan (Best, I believe, for a long tournament by helping ease mental strain and adding confidence in decision making)

+++++


Is Spell Pierce really a flex spot? While it is not integral to the deck, I don't think I've ever seen it cut. I've been thinking the deck really only has 4 flex spots.

Currently I'm tossing up either the 8 bolt plan or I might try something like 2 forked bolt, 2 spell snare, 2 gitaxian probe. Spell pierce is helpful, but still not necessary. Pierce is a super dead card against decks like D&T, Fish, GWx, etc other heavily creature based decks. If I do run 3 probe it's going to be with 2 other removal probably forked bolt and then 1 other flex spot either pierce or snare. I do think the main deck currently should have 6 removal minimum due to all the deathrites running around lately.

More on the new rug delver brew abrupt decay isn't really an issue. I mean that because it already kills goyf so the status of abrupt decay proof threats doesn't change. The only difference here is that they are sinking two cards with abrupt decay which is really bad because we don't have any "card advantage". Depending on testing squelch might be better to mitigate the card disadvantage. The only advantage of split second is using it offensively.

When we use trickbind for dread naught there's three possible lines of play the opponent has.
Line A: counter dread naught. This is unlikely unless they know you're running trickbind.
Line B: don't care because they have removal. If this happens then we're down a card.
Line C: Try to counter what they think is stifle and get slapped in the face by trickbind :tongue:.

Most likely they will take Line B or C and since trickbind does affect C it does make it more appealing. If we look at line B though, and they have removal then squelch is better because it cantrips. The only scenario in terms of using trickbind for dread nought that's better is if they try to counter it. This is still only looking at one aspect of trickbind for the combo portion. Trickbind definitely has it's advantages offensively being our own uncounterable 2 mana pain the ass for the opponent (stone rain, time walk on germ tokens, miracles, etc).

I tried Divert a bit like 4 months ago when the meta was saturated with UWR Delver. It never really did anything amazing for me then again with the new BUG delver builds it hits a lot of cards in there so it might be worth a shot.

[carefulmug]

@ Contract Killer

I can't tell you how excited you got me w/ the Squelch suggestion...

Until I remembered it can only target activated abilities...

Otherwise, that would have been far and away the better choice over Trickbind.

[Contract Killer]

@ Contract Killer

I can't tell you how excited you got me w/ the Squelch suggestion...

Until I remembered it can only target activated abilities...

Otherwise, that would have been far and away the better choice over Trickbind.

ah that sucks. I just suggested it because some of my friends playing modern had invested in it a while ago saying it was modern's stifle for two mana that can trips. How is that in any way shape or form stifle if it only hits activated abilities :mad:??? That's what I get for not RingTFC lol

[Final Fortune]

I'd be really really interested in some further tests with the Dreadnought version.

Btw, a friend of mine used to play that when pre-TNN Folks were The Big Deck. Instead of bothering with Lavamancer and Rough or w/e, he simply slammed down the turn2 Nought and rode it for the victory. No one, and I', 100% serious, no one ever boarded artifact removal against Thresh, so this was pretty poerful sb tactic.
Otoh, it was before Abrupt Decay. This card changes a lot. Uncounterable is what really hurts. (Not hat Submerge is any better, but at least you may Force it.) I think that for this plan to work, you either need a Decay-less metagame, or Misdirection somewhere in your 75.

@ all: If you'll try this, let us know how it went!

There's always Divert, that card doesn't see enough MD or SB play IMO considering every serious deck in the format has targets for it except Elves. I just really want to play Divert tho', so I may be a bit biased.

[index]

Hey guys,

The last two weeks i tested a lot with RUG Delver, and i really have to say that my sb is getting always more and more red. The most MVP has been Sulfuric Vortex. I can't tell you how good this card is against all the miracle, dnt, and all the other control/SFM decks. It solves a lot of problems like Jitte, batterskull, sword of light and shadow and all the lifegain. I know it makes their dacay also a little bit better, but hey, its better if it hits the Vortex than a delver or goyf.


The other thing i would like to say is, GO AND PLAY THOSE PRICE OF PROGRESS.God, this card is sooo good. I mean, 8 dmg and more for 1R ? Okay i'll take it. I know on the first it bites itself with our plan to screw them but if in the early game something goes wrong, like you don't stifled the fetches, wasted them out this card can forget this and bring you back in the game and put them under real pressure.

Izzet staticaster, is another card i want to bring in for all those dnt, elves goblins. It handles almost everything and has flash+haste+a 0/3 body.

Just my 2 cents.

Greetings.

[Blitzkreuz]

Played in our local tournament, went 4-0-1 and reached 2. place.

My list is a bit more unusual, mostly because of budget (posted it in the old Canadian thread before) :
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Izzet Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool



//Sideboard
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Played against: Sneakshow(2:1), Dark Maverick(0:2),Painter (2:1) and UR Burn (2:1)

Mostly really nice matchups to play against, Maverick is hard as always, especially with -2 Goyf.

Highlights: Fun to play (no Nemesis)
Match against UR Burn (really funny and nice opponent and all 3 Games were really close)
Another guy telling me that I would play the deck quite good :D

[carefulmug]

@ Final Fortune:

Divert was briefly discussed above; I believe it has the most merit coming in against BUG variants (whether or not on the Dreadnought plan), particularly BUG Delver, due to the high rate of targets (Discard, Counterspells, Abrupt Decay) and their relatively high number of permanents (usually 14 creatures + 2 Liliana ensures something to Divert an AD to).

@ Index:

Sulfuric Vortex was played much more last summer when Stoneblade was on top of things. If one's meta is full of Miracles and Batterskulls, it is indeed a fine choice. Price of Progress has also been played by several of the members of this forum to good impact.

It is interesting: While Green is our most important secondary color maindeck (2/3 of our creatures are green), Red constitutes our SB to a large degree.

The staticaster is a great idea...and having Flash really helps with regards to it being a 3cmc card.

@Blitzkreuz

Well done! A note: I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure tournament results are dictated as (Wins-Losses-Draws) so I believe your record, based on provided information, would be 3-1-0, not 4-0-1. If there was a bye or win you forgot about describing, that would take you to 4-1-0. Of course, if there is a "0" in the draw column, it can be left off.

Do you have a second Vendilion Clique you could play, instead of the Izzet Charm? I understand the Clique isn't very cheap itself, but I'm trying to think about improving your threat density. Cheaper-than-Goyf options include: Snapcaster Mage, Second Vendilion Clique, True-Name Nemesis, and Grim Lavamancer. The Lavamancer in particular may be good for your field if there is a lot of Dark Maverick and such.

@Thread:

On the 8 Bolt version, what would happen if we replaced 1-4 Tarmogoyf with 1-4 Snapcaster Mage? There was a period when I was down to 3 Tarmogoyf and I was playing a singleton Thiago in addition, and being able to replay burn to 2:1 opponents on the block or to End-of-turn Snapcaster, Bolt, then swing for the win was a fairly common play, even on 1 Snapcaster.

Since the 8 Bolt plan exists to either increase removal or go over Batterskull and True-Names before the game gets away from us, ie: games where Tarmogoyf doesn't pull as much weight, maybe moving to a veritable 9-12 Bolts is the way to go?

[Blitzkreuz]

@carefulmug

I got a bye, too, I just didnt remember the word and hoped that noone would mind / was too lazy to search for the word.

I actually like playing with only 2 Goyfs, would go up to 3 if I feel like spending money for it, but I like the +1 flexible cardslot I get. Of course that's just my oppinion but it fits my playstyle.

Of course the 2 shocklands are budget, too, but in fact I mostly never even care. They hurt in about maybe 5 of 100 games. Sure it feels bad too lose then, but then again I safe ~120€.

BTW I even won a snapcaster as price and thought about putting it in. Maybe instead of Clique and moving Clique to the SB for matchups, where I really need creatures

[carefulmug]

@ Blitz

I used to play with a Steam Vents/Breeding Pool, too, and I agree, it's usually a non-issue, particularly because our lands are typically fetch land and provide us with our duals anyway.

I also used to play with 11 threats. It is a meta/play call, you're right. In fact, I remember seeing a list a couple years ago that played 2x GSZ and 2x Snapcaster instead any Tarmogoyf.

Personally, even at 12 threats, I find many of the games I lose to be games in which I can't land a threat or keep it in play.

Nonetheless, how do you feel about Izzet Charm? In what situations does it perform better than a cheaper version of what it already does? How often is the mana cost worth more than having another forked bolt, spell pierce, or a singleton faithless looting?

[Blitzkreuz]

I havent done enough testing for that, but eveytime I drew Izzet Charm, I was always happy. I tried Fire/Ice in that slot too, or another Spell Pierce or Snare, but in the end I always drew Fire if I needed a Counter and a Counter if I needed burn, so all in all, it was ok. The higher mana cost never mattered, but then again I didnt drew it against SneakShow, where it would actually matter.

But for specific situations:

Against UR Delver I had 2 Wastes in hand and already 1 in play to use against Price of Progress (He never fetched Volcanics, so I really didnt need them) and had no Brainstorm or shuffle effect, so the looting effect was really nice. In the end I needed to pitch it to force so I couldnt cast it, but nonetheless it would hae been nice to use that mode.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

My congratulations to Blitzkreuz, esp. seeing how you played with a kind of a budget deck! Well done!

I'm considering the Izet Charm. My main concern are those two mana, moreover both of them colored. As much as I love to FB opposing DRS/Delver, it's quite annoying to draw burn against combo or control. I even think that the looter part of charm may be good in specific situations, like when you need to get away the chaff from BS or feed the Mongoose. In a more open metagame (aggro, combo and control equally balanced) it might be better than FB or F//I. While FB is perfect for DRS and DnT/Elves meta, and Fire//Ice shines in Elves/Goyf field, Izzet Charm seems to be very good overall tool. But as I said, my main concern are the two mana symbols in the top right corner, and as my metagame is full of DRS, I'll stay true to the Forked Bolt for now.

In other news, I finally have the last necessary cards, the Volcanic Islands. They are two, and they are Unlimited, so here's a special song only for them. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1slZTIKiVfY)

[Blitzkreuz]

Maybe I dont have such a problem with the casting cost because I run Izzet Charm in my Tarmo Slot. So I still have the opportunity to go 2 FB as 2 off one mana answers

[alohazendo]

This is an idea I had a few months ago but never pursued. Curious what the thread might think of this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

4 Ponder

8 Fetch
6 Dual
4 Waste

Essentially, -4 Tarmogoyf, -4 Flex spot, +4 Dreadnought, +4 Trickbind.

Pros for running Goyf:

+Varies CMC slightly in case of active Counterbalance
+Consistent beater: you pay 2 mana, you get a 4/5. Done.
+1:1 in case it is destroyed; ie, minimal card investment

Cons for running Goyf:

-Folds to RiP
-Spell Snare target (marginal, but applicable)
-Occasionally creates locked board states; ie, goyf vs. goyf, goyf vs. batterskull, goyf vs. TNN

Pros for running Dreadnought//Trickbind:

+Double the Stifle effect
+2-turn clock in a deck that hinges on taking advantage of early game tempo plays; Helps close out the game before the mid-late game is achieved.
+Tramples over TNN; Negates opposing Batterskulls.
+RiP proof creature, additional answers to RiP and the like in Trickbind.
+Additional answers to Terminus

Cons for Dreadnought//Trickbind:

-Potentially 2:1 card disadvantage if Dreadnought is destroyed
-Redundant Stifle effects when Stifle effects are dead.
-Potentially cluttered hands

There are more pros and cons for each, but I figured this is enough to get the ball rolling.

Other variations could be: 2 Dreadnought, 2 Tarmogoyf; 3 Dreadnought, 1 Island; 1 Dreadnought, 3 Tarmogoyf...

And why this variation of Canadian as opposed to going full Stiflenought? Probably Nimble Mongoose.

Have you considered: minus some # of Trickbind and plus a # of Vision Charm? It's one mana cheaper. It allows you to save Dreadnought from Abrupt Decay and its own trigger. It fits the tempo plan by changing opponent's land type to some difficult to use color provider for a turn (best done during their upkeep), and fuels Mongoose, putting 5 cards in gy at instant speed. I used to run a BUG version similar to this build and the surprise factor of VC was a lot of fun, especially the stunted time-walk effect of making their mana useless for a turn.

[cartothemax]

Hello All,

Yesterday I got a chance to play in a local tournie at my lgs. We had 24 folks show up, which, was good for 5 rounds with a cut to the top 8. I have only been playing RUG Delver for about 6 months and finally feel like I am comfortable with the deck. It feels good to be putting decent performances after the disappointing couples of outings the first times I played the deck. I will always play the 2 Pierce and 2 more burn. Forked Bolt has been my favorite lately. I want to try out Tarfire though. The last two spots in the deck go between Probe and Snare weekly. The sideboard changes about day to day I would say.

My list for reference:

//Lands
x4 Wooded Foothills
x4 Misty Rainforest
x3 Volcanic Island
x3 Tropical Island
x4 Wasteland
//Creatures
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Delver of Secrets
x4 Nimble Mongoose
//Core
x4 Force of Will
x4 Daze
x4 Stifle
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
//Flex
x2 Spell Pierce
x2 Gitaxian Probe
x2 Forked Bolt
//Sideboard
x1 Ancient Grudge
x1 Krosan Grip
x1 Destructive Revelry
x3 Submerge
x3 Pyroblast
x2 Flusterstorm
x2 Rough//Tumble
x2 Grafdigger's Cage


Couple of changes that I have already decided to make: MD -2 Probe +2 Spell Snare and SB -1 Destructive Revelry, -1 Krosan Grip +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge. I do like Probe, but I think Snare will give me a little more flexiblity. Hopefully I won't miss having the 9th and 10th cantrips. The other thing I want to do is put Life from the Loam back into the sideboard somehow...

Round 1: Jund (W)
G1 - I bolt and wasteland him out of the game while I flip first one Delver and get a buddy to join him to make quick work of him. He tries to Pulse the two of them and I Pierce it.
G2 - He is mana screwed and I beat him down with a Mongoose that he can't get off the board after I Pierce a Lilliana that would have saved his butt.
-4 Force of Will -1 Daze || +2 Rough +3 Submerge

Round 2: Re-Animator (L)
G1 - I have two Dazes for his Reanimate on a Griselbrand. He pays for one and Reanimate is countered. Next turn he has another Reanimate that I try to Force. He Forces back and that's the game.
G2 - Stifle and Wasteland set him back a little bit and I sit on a hand with double Force + Flusterstorm w/ no clock though. Eventually he goes for it and has double Force himself.
-2 Forked Bolt -4 Lightning Bolt -1 Tarmogoyf || +2 Flusterstorm +3 Pyroblast +2 Grafdigger's Cage

This was my first time playing this match. It felt sort of rough to be honest. Maybe I need to mull more aggressively for Cage? He mentioned after the match that he had bounce that he boarded in though. These two-card combo decks really give me problems for some reason (like Sneak and Show). Does anyone have any advice on playing these? Should I lead with Force? Hold back Daze? Pyroblast the first blue card that I can?

Round 3: NO/Shardless Bant
G1 - He double Forces when I try to either Stifle a fetch of his. This puts him up to three mana and he lands a Shardless Agent into a Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull. All the values. I eventually lose this when he lands another Stoneforge for Sword of Fire and Ice
G2 - I lay Delver T1. Lay Nimble Mongoose and Forked Bolt his DRS on T2. T3 another Delver, a Ponder to ensure my flip, and a Wasteland. I make short work of him from this position.
G3 - This turned into a marathon affair. I start out fast and get him down early using Mongeese. He plays a Visions and in the mean time digs deep with Jace/Ponder/Brainstorm. He stablizes at 2 life with some chump blocking from Shardless Agent and Stoneforge Mystic. I stifle the Visions enter the battlefield trigger and dig for the Lightning Bolt to win.
-4 Force of Will -4 Daze -2 Probe -1 || +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Destructive Revelry, +3 Submerge, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Rough

After the match he showed me a mini NO package. This was a super janky list. In hindsight I would have left three Force in and left out the 3 Pyroblasts.

Round 4: BUG Delver (W)
G1 - I won after making the patented RUG Play of leaving him with no permanents in play after Wasteland, Bolt, and Stifle did work. He wasn't able to recover.
G2 - He played Delver and then double Hymn for T2 and T3. A Tarmogoyf sealed the deal for me.
G3 - Another Delver led off for him. I continued to Waste and Stifle him, but he landed a Tarmo. He has a flipped Delver with me at 6 life. My turn I play a Delver and Ponder. With my Ponder I see double Submerge and a Wasteland. He has two lands (Sea and Bayou) in play currently. I choose to keep this. I proceed to Submerge the Delver after he plays a Tarmogoyf. I Submerge the Goyf and Waste away his 2nd land AND last blue source. It was a lucky turnaround and I beat him down for 5 turns with a flipped Delver. Using Pierce to stop any Ponder or Brainstorms.
-4 Force of Will -1 Daze || +2 Rough +3 Submerge

Round 5: UR Delver (W)
G1 - He gets an early Wasteland and I don't have any lands. I got a Delver down before he Wastes me, but it gets Bolted.
G2 - I basically Bolt every creature that he tried to play Delver, Guide, and Young Pyromancer get Blasted, Forked, and Roughed. Mongoose and Goyf do a lot of work and close out the game eventually.
G3 - I get an early Delver, but it doesn't flip for a while. Thankfully I have three Dazes in junction with Stifle + Wasteland to stop anything. Again all of his creatures die.

Pyroblast was awesome both post board games and I kept either a Force or Pierce up for PoP at all times.

-4 Force of Will -1 Stifle|| +3 Pyroblast +2 Rough\\Tumble

This was good enough for Top 8 where I was 4th seed.

Top 8: Miracles (L)
G1 - I get out a T2 Goyf that is Swords. Follow up with a second Goyf and then I Stifle three Miracle triggers in a row of Terminus and ride the Goyf to victory.
G2 - RIP and then a Helm combo finish
G3 - Same thing RIP and Helm combo finish
-4 Daze, -2 Probe || +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Ancient Grudge, +3 Pyroblast

Nimble Mongoose was a house for me. Stifle is awesome. I never see going below 4 personally, but understand why some people do. The 2-2-2 configuration is like having the ultimate swiss army knife.

http://tiwibzone.tiwib.netdna-cdn.com/images/ultimate-swiss-army-knife1-300x250.jpg

[carefulmug]

Have you considered: minus some # of Trickbind and plus a # of Vision Charm? It's one mana cheaper. It allows you to save Dreadnought from Abrupt Decay and its own trigger. It fits the tempo plan by changing opponent's land type to some difficult to use color provider for a turn (best done during their upkeep), and fuels Mongoose, putting 5 cards in gy at instant speed. I used to run a BUG version similar to this build and the surprise factor of VC was a lot of fun, especially the stunted time-walk effect of making their mana useless for a turn.

I think you're absolutely right, and I had that exact thought last night and reconfigured the list a bit, coming to the following:

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
3 phyrexian dreadnought

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 vision charm
4 force of will
4 daze
4 lightning bolt

3 gitaxian probe
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island

The Gitaxian Probes accelerate both the Nimble Mongoose's threshold and the Dreadnought's assembly, while giving you information necessary to know whether the Dreadnought's very assembly is the correct play.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ cartothemax: Thanks a lot for your detailed, well written and fine structured report! What have you won for your efforts?


This was my first time playing this match. It felt sort of rough to be honest. Maybe I need to mull more aggressively for Cage? He mentioned after the match that he had bounce that he boarded in though. These two-card combo decks really give me problems for some reason (like Sneak and Show). Does anyone have any advice on playing these? Should I lead with Force? Hold back Daze? Pyroblast the first blue card that I can?
You know that your opponenet was kinda lucky, don't you? :smile:
I think that you kept a solid hand. Against this kind of two-card-monte decks it's quite hard to mulligan properly, becasue you may always lack one of the necessary tools, be it protection or threat.



G1 - I won after making the patented RUG Play of leaving him with no permanents in play after Wasteland, Bolt, and Stifle did work. He wasn't able to recover.
:smile: This should be incorporated into the primer!


@ carefulmug: Again, I am interested in test results!

edit: Btw, for anyone playing in Batterskull metagame, I recommend trying one Artifact Mutation. it's especially good against DnT, because they can't counter it, they always got at least some target for it (with Aether Vial being somewhat clunky, but any Sword of A+B is pretty solid and Jitte is still not bad) and contrary to other Wasteland.dec they cannot counter the spell. While I like Destructive Revelry, Artifact Mutation may do much more dmg over the turns, it's far less managable, and with our many removal, they should not be able to do much about the tokens, esp. if there are other creatures to control. In my ride to Top8 I won the game against DnT that would not be won with Grudge (or at least it would take lots of additional turns), while the Mutation was an "I win" button.
Considering that DnT pilots go for the BSK most of the times, I feel like Mutation is very strong now. It breaks not only their equipment, but also the stalls, and the tokens might chumpblock Thalia ad infinitum while Delver's trying to get there.
Also, while Grudge is quite powerful due to the flashback, RiP changes this.

[Kowitz]

How's it going everyone,

I had been playing Team America for a good amount of time, but I was in a bit of a slump with it, so I made the switch to RUG. My 1st time playing it was this last weekend at a SCG Super IQ.(6 rounds, cut to top 8) I lost my win and in to the top 8, due to a game loss(accidently drew an extra card to start game 3, didn't realize it, and played my turn... oops :/

Anyway, I played the stock RUG list with the 6 flex spots being: 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Forked Bolt, 1 Fire//Ice. And a Sideboard of:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

The deck felt very strong, especially since it was my 1st time with the deck(I didn't even play test with it before the tournament)

The changes I am thinking about making:

54 card stock RUG list
6 flex spots: 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Chain Lightning, 2 Forked Bolt

SIDE:

2 Submerge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam, or destructive revelry or Flusterstorm

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Kowitz! Sorry to read about your mistake that cost you so much.
Interesting sideboard choices.
I met several LftL decks (frankly just on MWS) and I feel like Surgical Extraction might be a good call for a combo/Loam meta. As my field warrants different weapons, I don't use that many gy slots, but I should never forget about the card. How were the Grims? Is one Grudge enough? How come you used sno FLusterstorm? For your proposed sb, do you feel that 1RR cost of Vortex might be troublesome enough to not warrant two pieces of a card?
Also, the 2/2 CL/FB split is interesting take, you'll have enough power to burn the oppoenent out, while not losing flexibility against Thalia/elves, and simultaneously you won't put your own Delver into the danger. Seems good.

[Kowitz]

The lavamancers were quite underwhelming for me, but I feel like they can be very strong in certain matchups! And yes, the 1RR might be slightly hard to cast reliably, but I would usually board it in against a deck like miracles, where they have no wastelands, and we need some finishing power after they stabilize. I do however really like the 2 cage and 2 surgical, but I like having access to GY hate, just personal preference I suppose!(surgical can have other uses as well, along with cage being good against elves as well!) I could definitely see myself cutting some stuff for an additional ancient grudge, but maybe enchantment hate is better, to not get blown out by RIP. And if I expect a combo heavy meta, probably find room for flusterstorm, along with another pierce or 2 in the main.


Sorry if there are any typos, I did this response from my phone!

[mextremartini]

I think you're absolutely right, and I had that exact thought last night and reconfigured the list a bit, coming to the following:



I have made some changes... And i am also playtesting, which i didnt loose a game yet.

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
3 phyrexian dreadnought

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
TWO vision charm+ONE TRICK
4 force of will
4 daze
4 lightning bolt
FOUR gitaxian probe
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island

[cartothemax]

What have you won for your efforts?

Got myself twenty dollars in store credit. I used to get three Judgement packs hoping for Cabal Therapy (it is an uncommon in the set after all). I instead open two Anger, Brawn, and Envelop. Oh well!



I think that you kept a solid hand. Against this kind of two-card-monte decks it's quite hard to mulligan properly, becasue you may always lack one of the necessary tools, be it protection or threat.

Yeah, I agree. Game two I mulled to 6 to a double Force hand. I haven't been able to beat a Sneak and Show or (now) Re-animator deck now. Just hard since they always seem to have it. :rolleyes:

Been meaning to grab one when I can, but I am going to going to pickup an Artifact Mutation Every SFM deck in my meta fetches for Batterskull first.

[carefulmug]

I have made some changes... And i am also playtesting, which i didnt loose a game yet.

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
3 phyrexian dreadnought

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
TWO vision charm+ONE TRICK
4 force of will
4 daze
4 lightning bolt
FOUR gitaxian probe
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island

That's great to hear it's performing well for you. I have also found the only real wiggle room with this variant seems to be in numbers of Vision Charm//Trickbind//Gitaxian Probe//Dreadnought. I think going over 3 Dreadnought creates for too many clunky hands since we don't want Dreadnought to create a reluctance for us to play our original gameplan--Stifling our opponent off mana. So, really, I guess the numbers only vary between Gitaxian Probe and the Vision Charm//Trickbinds.

Personally, as much as I like the idea of redundant Stifle effects, as soon as I remembered Vision Charm, I think I'm going to stick to it completely. I've long considered keeping the mana cost in Canadian as low as possible the most important aspect to it's deck building. And, while that would suggest I'd be on board with all 4 Gitaxian Probe, an essentially free spell, in this decklist, I think I'm going to stick with 8 Dreadnought enablers to my 3 Dreadnoughts. The reason for this is mathematic:

In a deck with 57 cards (3 Gitaxian Probe) and 8 Dreadnought enablers, enablers consist of (8 / 57 = .14) 14% of the deck.

In a deck with 56 cards (4 Gitaxian Probe), and 7 Dreadnought enablers, enablers consist of (7 / 56 = .125) 12.5% of the deck.

Because there isn't much else we can cut, I think providing the highest rate of seeing enablers is the most 'correct' way of building this version.

With that in mind, how does the single Trickbind work? How often have you used the mill and land-based effects of Vision Charm to good use? Are there times when you use a Vision Charm or Stifle effect only to draw a Dreadnought a turn later? Also, what have you been testing against? I think the biggest concern I have right now is going all in against an Abrupt Decay.

@ Bed Decks: I unfortunately do not have any methods of testing right now (recently moved, don't have MODO or Cockatrice, and have not met a play group), so I invite everyone interested in the list to build it or proxy it up and see for themselves. Personally, after some couple dozen test hands, it looks good, but without an opponent, I can only gauge so well.

[Vandalize]

Hey guys, I've been experimenting with the 4 Chain Lightning list, and it has been working pretty well. Playing massive amounts of burn let us save our counterspell for more important stuff. And that additional reach is always welcome. I've won many matches digging for damage when my opponent stabilized the board at 6~7 life.

The list:

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage/Tormod's Crypt (depends on what I expect to face)
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

I've been tracking records of my latest matches against 7 popular decks:

Elves 7-3-0
UW(r) Miracles - 5-4-2
Deathblade 5-2-0
Jund 4-5-0
Patriot 4-2-0
Team America 6-4-0
Sneak and Show 3-0-0

This was playing mostly irl with some dudes on my local store, which 75% are pretty good, and the other 25% are newcomers. But this looked good enough to post here.

Any advices or criticism? How Dreadnought have been working out?

[Contract Killer]

So I tried the very rough 4 dreadnaught 4 trickbind build last night with some friends. To say the least it wasn't that great. Against stoneblade he always seemed to have a swords to plowshares either in hand or a snapcaster. The 12 life I gained did buy me a lot of time though that's like 4 turns worth of time against stoneblade. Trickbind was definitely good and caused for some really hard to play through situations for him (I had double waste, stifle and trickbind that game he didn't get past one land). I haven't tested it enough, but I do think the value of split second on trickbind is enough to warrant a 2/2 split between that and vision charm.

In other news I took rug to my lgs yesterday and went to a miserable 0/2 drop. My match ups were miracles 0/2 game one got him down to 7 life before he stabilized game 2 got him down to 2 all while only drawing 1 out of my 8 bolts having another 7 in the other 30 or so cards in my deck. Round 2 was painter stone and to say the least I hate this match up. They always seem to have a turn 1 blood moon effect they can jam or they can slow roll it and have multiple red blasts in hand all the while playing around daze and spell pierce. Any advice for playing against painter stone?

[Contract Killer]

Whoa did anybody see the rug list that took second at SCG Charlotte? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6997&d=240222&f=LE

It's really interesting I've been seeing more and more lists lately that are trimming 1 or 2 tarmogoyfs for Vendilion Cliques. I mean it makes sense it's a house against combo and flys over TNN, but is worse in some of the fair decks because you have less ways to deal with opposing tarmogoyfs. Another interesting choice is going down to 3 stifles which seems bad especially since it's more or less a counter against miracles.
His sideboard also has some weird singletons. Sylvan Library, Arcane laboratory and Ooze pop out at me. I mean sylvan and ooze I get for grindy mathc ups and graveyard hate respectively, but arcane laboratory confuses me. It's great against storm and other combo decks since essentially your counters become uncounterable. The only thing I don't like about the laboratory is it's 3 mana which is a bit of a stretch and we have to tap out to do it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Arcane Laboratory is kind of a card that very few storm pilots would expect. In fact I guess they sb no removal at all, because Thresh is not really famous for playing cards like CotV, CB, 3sphere and such. Otoh, when I played ANT I always took at least one CoV or Decay, as there might be need to destroy Cage or (fast) Delver.
Considering Sylvan Library, I already wrote my opinion on it, and it's basically this: it's a nice card for a different deck, one that plans to play lots of turns to use the card filtering (and the potential CA). May and should Maverick play this card? Definitely! Thresh? I'm not sure.
I like the two Cliques, they may be essential in certain metagames/matches, because they fly over TNN, mess with Terminus/SFM triggers, help to fight combo, etc., all know facts and applications. I wouldn't cut two Goyfs, though. Maybe one, but definitely not two. Goyf is pretty fast, it's a great wall against opposing aggro decks (and Goyfs) and there might be other less useful cards to cut: I'd start with Thoguht Scour that in my opinion does very little.
However, a 2nd place out of 361 players ain't anything to sneeze at. Good job, and if the guy is registered on the forum, I'd love to read the report.

[Contract Killer]

Arcane Laboratory is kind of a card that very few storm pilots would expect. In fact I guess they sb no removal at all, because Thresh is not really famous for playing cards like CotV, CB, 3sphere and such. Otoh, when I played ANT I always took at least one CoV or Decay, as there might be need to destroy Cage or (fast) Delver.
Considering Sylvan Library, I already wrote my opinion on it, and it's basically this: it's a nice card for a different deck, one that plans to play lots of turns to use the card filtering (and the potential CA). May and should Maverick play this card? Definitely! Thresh? I'm not sure.
I like the two Cliques, they may be essential in certain metagames/matches, because they fly over TNN, mess with Terminus/SFM triggers, help to fight combo, etc., all know facts and applications. I wouldn't cut two Goyfs, though. Maybe one, but definitely not two. Goyf is pretty fast, it's a great wall against opposing aggro decks (and Goyfs) and there might be other less useful cards to cut: I'd start with Thoguht Scour that in my opinion does very little.
However, a 2nd place out of 361 players ain't anything to sneeze at. Good job, and if the guy is registered on the forum, I'd love to read the report.

yeah I've tried sylvan before with a 3 goyf build that Sasan suggested and it worked great. It allowed me to achieve better card quality in games that went long like stoneblade and was pure card advantage against combo decks. Quick question what are CotV, CB, and 3sphere? I'm guessing trinisphere not sure the other two. Yeah I've seen some cut one goyf for a vendilion clique which seems fine, but two is a first for the specific reasons you just said. Clique does have it's advantages in it's interactions with SFM and Miracles. Another cute interaction is assuming the opponent is playing conservatively around daze or force clique can snag a TNN.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

yeah I've tried sylvan before with a 3 goyf build that Sasan suggested and it worked great. It allowed me to achieve better card quality in games that went long like stoneblade and was pure card advantage against combo decks. Quick question what are CotV, CB, and 3sphere? I'm guessing trinisphere not sure the other two. Yeah I've seen some cut one goyf for a vendilion clique which seems fine, but two is a first for the specific reasons you just said. Clique does have it's advantages in it's interactions with SFM and Miracles. Another cute interaction is assuming the opponent is playing conservatively around daze or force clique can snag a TNN.

My main concern (and frankly: one and only, yet serious), so, my main concern with Library is that it's quite slow and that it does nothing the turn we play it. I'm not sure if a tempo deck can use this card, otoh, I know that in particular matchups (like Miracles/ non-ToA combo) we may easily draw tons of cards with it, not to mention all the card selection gained over the turns. Definitely a sb material, I wouldn't play it main, because there are some matchups where I wouldn't love to draw it.

CB - Counterbalance
CotV - Chalice of the Void

[carefulmug]

@ Contract

3sphere = Trinisphere

--


Heffner's list from the invitational is interesting, and warrants some testing if that's anyone is interested in it, but if I'm not mistaken, he cracked the top8 due to his Standard run (8-0), not his Legacy record (5-3, I think).

Unless I'm incorrect in how the invitational top8s are decided. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure his record leading up to the top8 was strictly above average.

[Contract Killer]

So last night with nothing better to do I got together with some friends and decided to test this abomination that is RUG + Nought lol. I played 4 games against shardless BUG with a shell of 3 noughts, 2 vision charm, 2 trickbind and 3 gitaxian probe and 2/2 so not horrible. There was at least one game where it resolved and it's like swing you go from 16 to 6 lol. At the very least it doesn't get chump blocked by everything under the sun like goyf does which is really relevant against shardless bug. The trample also makes baleful strix a little less annoying. Fighting through discard was a bit hard and on top of that they have Liliana... and abrupt decay :rolleyes:. To say the least this is probably one of our worst match ups (I would say worse then jund) especially with this combo nought build.

After those games I switched to 2 goyf 2 nought, 2 trickbind, 1 vision charm, 3 probe. This resulted in 2 wins 4 losses over the next 6 games. It's interesting how with the trickbinds it makes the deck play more of a controlish more mana denial oriented build. I think at the very least it's worth pursuing. I'm sure there's plenty of times that I could pull this off against combo and force them to just have it or die in a turn or two. That shear fact alone is relevant putting a clock on the table that can't be ignored what so ever. It just feels so bad at the card disadvantage with abrupt decay and swords to plowshares. Let's face it though what's miracles going to do about a 12/12? If we have a force, stifle etc to protect it miracles is a much worse position then if it was just a 3/4 goyf. In addition they can't lean nearly as much on RIP in that match up if we have nought.

Other notes Vision charms land ability still has me puzzled if it's worth using. I tried it once and probably cost me a game I had perfect information and new crap was going to hit the fan that turn. He had 2 lands and deathrite out with shardless in hand I think so I decided to turn swamps into plains or something irrelevant nuking his two lands for the turn. Naturally he top decks another land plays it plays shardless and yeah. It's probably more relevant against mana tight decks like bug delver, patriot delver, d&T hahaha etc. At first I thought it would be awesome against something like miracles in response to a terminus turn plains into mountains, but because of when the trigger happens they float mana and don't care. If they flip top on your turn then do it they still float mana. I want it to be good, but outside of making mana tight decks blank for a turn it's not that great. Everything that we care about aka removal via abrupt decay, swords, terminus etc is instant speed at most we might be able to mess up planeswalkers and make them not play jace or Liliana. Even that though merits something seeing as it really screws up dread nought.

After that it was getting late but we did a quick best 2/3 with my regular 8 bolt build and it was great. Game 1 I won, but in retrospect he realized he messed up in the last turns after swinging with a deathrite + jitte vs 2 goose that were beating his head in. The first swing was right, but after that he should have only used one counter for life and then left deathrite back on defense shooting me while fending off geese with the +2/+2 from jitte. Game 2 was close and I narrowly won after drawing price. He's at 8 taps both deathrites to shoot me knowing he can just do this over the next few turns while goyfs stare at each other then bam 8 to the face off of price for exact :cool:. SB I like this match a lot more because we side out 4 daze 4 force and 2 pierce (at least I did) and in 3 pyroblast, 2 submerge, 2 price, 1 sylvan, 1 grudge, 1 vendilion clique. There is some argument to keep pierce in (and some number of daze otp) after sb since it still hits Liliana. This was the build I was playing for those two games
MD 8 bolt, 2 pierce, stock list
SB 3 pyroblast, 2 submerge, 2 price, 2 cage, 1: sylvan, flusterstorm, vendilion clique, ancient grudge, artifact mutation, rough
Instead of trying to avoid the x / 3 bracket and in turn manaless dredge like the plague I broke down and put more than one graveyard hate in the sb hahaha still want to cut it for something more relevant like a second rough.

[carefulmug]

As much as I like Trickbind, I truly think Canadian Dreadnought needs 3-4 Vision Charm, likely eschewing the Trickbind entirely. Trickbind may be a viable flex slot, but not in the Dreadnought build. The mana efficiency of Vision Charm is a part of the reason. The ability to save your Dreadnought by phasing him out is another. And the third, most important reason to use 3-4 Vision Charms is to occasionally take advantage of a faster Mongoose against Abrupt Decay decks.

However, the major issue I have been concerned with, and what I imagine is the ultimate downfall of Canadian Dreadnought (if it does not end up doing better in tests and is abandoned) is the dance with inconsistency it exhibits in trying to assemble a two-card combo. For Canadian to perform ideally, there is a great stress placed on consistency. Tarmogoyf isn't a 12/12, but he's a creature alone. Further, I believe redundancy in spells is essential, as we usually want the same hands every game: stifle, brainstorm, daze, delver//mongoose, bolt, waste, fetch...

This idea of consistency + redundancy is precisely why I came up with the 8 bolt version in the first place, and I'm glad that it has been performing well, and, believe me, I am happier than anyone that testing has proven there is sufficient blue to easily run all 4 Forces.

[Contract Killer]

I completely agree that vision charm is better in terms of efficiency/protection, but it seems to be dead the rest of the time from my 10 games of testing or so. I don't really think we ever want to mill 4 with vision charm because that's just straight card disadvantage without snapcaster mage. How does making mongoose bigger even help us against abrupt decay decks anyways? I mean if you look at jund, shardless bug, bug, and the stoneblade/deathblade mesh (I swear they're one in the same these days) all have at least 3 - 8 creatures that just eat mongoose threshed or not (not counting the other 3 edict effects probably). The main issue is more so the fact that he doesn't stick. Every time I played him he immediately got tagged with Abrupt Decay or Swords (like most of our threats to begin with). With that being said it might be worth trying more charms. Since it phases out and then in on our turn we will have mana up and can try to protect him better. In addition this plan negates Liliana as a possible out for them which is a huge plus in my opinion. Then again this is based on them not just using spot removal in response to charm phasing out nought to begin with something that if they can they will.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

With Wasteland, Port (and I already saw Ghost Quarter!) all over the metagame, I'm starting to consider Teferi'S Response as my 15th sb slot. It's a narrow card and it definitely doesn't warrant more than one solt (if only), and maybe LftL would be far better. But I like the hypothetical blow out it may do, as in certain situations this is (conditional) two mana Ancestral Recall - you draw only two cards, but the third one is the one that the opponent has lost.
While Stifle is good for saving our fragile manabase, I still think that against DnT-like decks even a set of Stifles might be not enough, esp. in the early game when we struggle to do anything against the imminent threat of being Wasted out of game. In the midgame it's a bit better (and in the late game it's worse again, as many more mana-denial tools get online, yet it's not the time when it matters anymore...), but my main concern are those opening turns when one Waste or Port may kick us out of game. Countering that activation and even gaining a CA out of it seems like a powerful option.
Frankly, for this to work, all the Divert-related troubles pop up: you need to play enough copies to have them at ready, and then you're simply better with a singleton Loam and a bit of luck with your cantrips to find.

Maybe I just want to see their faces when I'll respond (pun intended) to their Port activation, and in fact it looks like a bad idea. Otoh, it still continues to vex my mind. After all, there's not much we need to do in DnT matchup: we must protect our lands and then resolve the removal. But yeah, Needle and Loam might be the best.

[Contract Killer]

With Wasteland, Port (and I already saw Ghost Quarter!) all over the metagame, I'm starting to consider Teferi'S Response as my 15th sb slot. It's a narrow card and it definitely doesn't warrant more than one solt (if only), and maybe LftL would be far better. But I like the hypothetical blow out it may do, as in certain situations this is (conditional) two mana Ancestral Recall - you draw only two cards, but the third one is the one that the opponent has lost.
While Stifle is good for saving our fragile manabase, I still think that against DnT-like decks even a set of Stifles might be not enough, esp. in the early game when we struggle to do anything against the imminent threat of being Wasted out of game. In the midgame it's a bit better (and in the late game it's worse again, as many more mana-denial tools get online, yet it's not the time when it matters anymore...), but my main concern are those opening turns when one Waste or Port may kick us out of game. Countering that activation and even gaining a CA out of it seems like a powerful option.
Frankly, for this to work, all the Divert-related troubles pop up: you need to play enough copies to have them at ready, and then you're simply better with a singleton Loam and a bit of luck with your cantrips to find.

Maybe I just want to see their faces when I'll respond (pun intended) to their Port activation, and in fact it looks like a bad idea. Otoh, it still continues to vex my mind. After all, there's not much we need to do in DnT matchup: we must protect our lands and then resolve the removal. But yeah, Needle and Loam might be the best.

That's only good on the play though right? I mean if D&T is running at full steam on the play they will have port out turn 2 meaning we can't use it until turn 3 which just seems really slow. I guess if there's a lot of players in your meta with $600 to throw at tabernacle and $200 for ports then it might be worth it :D. In addition both of those are extremely bad match ups that I would rather just not worry about using narrow sideboard cards to deal with. Note I'm not being hypocritical here sulfur elemental while narrow is a huge impact spell that wins us the game against them thus warrants a spot in the sb.

[Exuberance]

With Wasteland, Port (and I already saw Ghost Quarter!) all over the metagame, I'm starting to consider Teferi'S Response as my 15th sb slot. It's a narrow card and it definitely doesn't warrant more than one solt (if only), and maybe LftL would be far better. But I like the hypothetical blow out it may do, as in certain situations this is (conditional) two mana Ancestral Recall - you draw only two cards, but the third one is the one that the opponent has lost.
While Stifle is good for saving our fragile manabase, I still think that against DnT-like decks even a set of Stifles might be not enough, esp. in the early game when we struggle to do anything against the imminent threat of being Wasted out of game. In the midgame it's a bit better (and in the late game it's worse again, as many more mana-denial tools get online, yet it's not the time when it matters anymore...), but my main concern are those opening turns when one Waste or Port may kick us out of game. Countering that activation and even gaining a CA out of it seems like a powerful option.
Frankly, for this to work, all the Divert-related troubles pop up: you need to play enough copies to have them at ready, and then you're simply better with a singleton Loam and a bit of luck with your cantrips to find.

Maybe I just want to see their faces when I'll respond (pun intended) to their Port activation, and in fact it looks like a bad idea. Otoh, it still continues to vex my mind. After all, there's not much we need to do in DnT matchup: we must protect our lands and then resolve the removal. But yeah, Needle and Loam might be the best.

Don't get me wrong; Teferi's Response is the most hilarious solution. But yeah, Loam is just better.

[Emo]

Hello all,

This is my first time posting on The Source; I have perused the forums for a couple years but now I am actively playing more legacy and wanted to start getting online feedback. I attempted to pilot RUG delver with some success prior to the RTR block being printed. I played Sneak and Show and Jund for the last year or so and am now back to playing RUG (I have the most fun playing this deck). Lately I have been watching a couple videos of SCG legacy events and MTGO events and realized how vast the skill range is between novice RUG pilots and those players who can navigate matchups and eek out victories by always taking the right line of play against their opponents. Last Wednesday I played at a local tournament event with 30+ players and split first place. Below is my current decklist, a brief tournament report, and a few questions about SB and MU for some more seasoned RUG players.

MD

Creatures

-4 geese
-4 goyf
-4 delver

Instants/Sorceries

-4 brainstorm
-4 ponder
-4 Force
-4 Daze
-4 stifle
-4 bolt

-2 spell pierce
-2 spell snare
-2 forked bolt

Land

-4 wasteland
-4 Scalding tarns
-4 Misty rainforest
-1 wooded foothills
-2 Tropical Island
-2 volcanic Island
-1 Taiga

(I don't have 3 volcanic islands -I only own 2- so instead of running the 3/3 split with trops and volcs, I decided to do the 2/2 split with an extra fetchland and a taiga so I still have access to 3 sources of red and green mana)

SB

-3 REB
-3 Rough/Tumble
-2 Graft digger's cage
-2 ancient Grudge
-1 flusterstorm
-1 pithing needle
-2 diverts
-1 Engineered explosives

(I play in a meta filled with mostly fair decks and the occasional combo deck namely elves and Reanimator, which seems to be popular again.)

Reasoning behind my sideboard: I think a third Rough/Tumble helps against matchups I most hate playing against: D&T and elves. The only other 3 cards which I believe need an explanation are the 2 diverts and the 1 engineered explosives. I really like divert against BUG variants and Deathblade decks because I feel that the card is a live card up until turns 4-5 of the game because of our mana denial plan. With an increase in Deathblade and Bug I feel divert is an effective 2 for 1 against decays, STPs, disfigures, hymns etc.. I am debating running misdirection but have not yet tested it. I am including one EE because of TNN. I feel that if TNN resolves we are stonewalled and want another out other than countering the TNN with REBS, dazes or Forces. The EE might be too mana intensive and I haven't used it effectively yet but I am still play-testing it: It could be useful in the late game when we have access to 3-5 mana.

Now for my tournament report

RD 1: ANT

Game 1: This game came down to one critical moment- I had a loose goose, 2 lands in play (1 tapped 1 untapped), 4 cards in hand, and my opponent was on 10 life. My opponent has three lands in play and a grip of seven cards- He starts off with a duress I have (Force, Daze, stifle and Bolt in hand)- I decide to do nothing since I don't see a profitable play. He goes ahead and takes the force and then follows it up with another duress. Damn. Well he hasn't made a land drop so hopefully the daze will be active- I daze the duress he pays for the daze and then proceeds to take the stifle. He then makes his land drop plays a dark ritual, a cabal ritual then hardcasts adnauseum. He first hits a past in flames then a cabal ritual, the untapped volcanic island in play and the lightning bolt in my hand say we are going to game 2.

In -1 pithing needle, 1 flusterstorm
out- 2 forked bolts

Game 2: A turn one delver and turn two goose apply enough pressure for him to pull the trigger early. I use my one-of flusterstorm backed by force and 2 spell pierces to seal the deal.

2-0

RD 2: Deathblade

Game 1 on the play: I stifle his first fetch land (polluted delta) and then on his second turn I stifle his second fetch land (flooded strand). He only draws a wasteland for the next 4 turns before dying to a loose goose and a goyf. At this point I don't really know what he is playing- he discards two stone forge mystics during his clean up steps- so I am assuming some Esper or deathblade variant.

In- 2 diverts 2 acient grudge
out- 4 force of wills

Game 2: I mull to six: hand is (goose, goyf, tarn, misty, waste, bolt) In retrospect I am not sure if I should have kept this hand: I feel that learning what hands to mull in RUG is one of the toughest decisions for the deck. Turn one he thoughtseizes the goose, I joke and say just don’t well at least its not a hymn. Turn two he hymns me… he hits the goyf and a bolt leaving me with lands and another freshly drawn bolt. Turn three TNN.. turn four TNN... It ends quickly from here

In- 2 divert 2 ancient grudge 1 EE
out- 4 forces and 1 spell snare

Game 3: This is an absolute grind fest which ends with him having 6 lands and a TNN in play, he also has a STP in hand. I am at 7 he is at 5. He STPs my flipped delver leaving me on empty board save a taiga, volcanic island, and a trop. My next two draws: lightning bolt and forked bolt- I Believe in the heart of the cards :)

4-1-0

RD 3: UWR delver

Game 1: I am on the play and my opponent mulls to 5. My starting hand is misty, goose, daze, daze, ponder, wasteland, forked bolt. I almost punt this game right off the bat. I get greedy think I can land a goose with daze back up and eek out some incremental advantage for the first two turns. I play the goose and pass- my opponent wastes my trop. I do not draw a colored land for the next 6 turns and start discarding my dazes and other counter magic. My opponent is equally unlucky and proceeds to draw land and removal spells for 6 straight turns. My goose eventually gets it done.

In: 3 REBS, 2 diverts (I was debating ancient grudge but wasn't sure what should go out for it)
Out: 4 Force, 1 forked bolt

Game 2: This game I start the game with a commanding position by landing 2 thresholded geese and a goyf by turn 4 while successfully countering the two STPs pointed at my goyf. He lands a TNN with a Jitte on the board and this makes me realize how broken TNN is - as it single handedly made the math such that neither of us could profitably attack. I am lucky enough to draw a delver and have it flip next turn off a bolt which puts him at exactly dead from an alpha strike.

6-1-0

I really debated bringing in the EE in this game but couldn't find the space for it. I also felt my opponent was unlucky in his draws and am not quite sure if RUG is usually a dog in this matchup?

RD 4: Deathblade/ RUG mirror

My opponent, who is an excellent deathblade player, and I were the only two people left with the highest records so we decided to split 1st place. Afterwards I was kind of bummed because I just wanted to play and get experience piloting the deck. Someone else there was willing to play a friendly final match which was nice

(alternate matchup)

Game 1 (RUG mirror on the draw) I have to mull to 5 as my opening hands were both 1 landers with wasteland. My opponent has a turn one delver followed by two delvers turn two which proceed to flip turn three. I am able to bolt one insectile aberration but I quickly lose this race and go to game 2.

In - 3 REBs 2 diverts
Out- 4 force 1 spell snare

Game 2 & 3- I win both games through very grindy games. We almost go until time - My opponent is playing a different build of RUG with grim lavamancer and TNN instead of goose. A couple timely REBs help me blow up TNN before it ever hits the board. Goose wins me game three as I feel it is often the best threat in RUG.

Some general thoughts
I am still unsure as to what the optimal SB cards are for the Deathblade matchup?
Would the inclusion of one TNN in the MD or SB be good for grindy matchups? I feel that against fair decks, we are the aggressor and thus winning the damage race and landing a TNN and attacking twice with it can help break stalled or losing board states against other fair decks
Has anyone tested out misdirection as a SB option- I played one RUG player who did when I was playing JUND and it seemed alright

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Emo, welcome you onboard!
Many thanks for the report! Well written and interesting one. I see you sb Diverts very often, and as I worte about it just few posts above, here comes a question: how they served you? I like them in vacuum, the effect is very powerful and diverting Hymn/Decay may be backbreaking. Otoh, from what experiences I gathered with the card, it never really felt good enough.

Also, no Submerges? You can't be serious... :-)

Just today when I sorted my RUG cards, I thought about Engineered Explosives. I played EE in Thresh, but... it was long time ago in the old NQGw list that sported CB and no Wasteland. In a deck that operates on one land, this card is quite strange. Yet it's the only reasonable answer to resolved TNN, not to mention it may help in DnT and similar matchups. Idk. On one hand it seems clunky, on the other hand it seems powerful. I guess I'll stay away from it, but I'm really glad that you've showed us that an unconventional sb is possible and may help you towards a solid result.

Congrats and again: welcome!

[Water_Wizard]

RD 1: ANT

Game 1: This game came down to one critical moment- I had a loose goose, 2 lands in play (1 tapped 1 untapped), 4 cards in hand, and my opponent was on 10 life. My opponent has three lands in play and a grip of seven cards- He starts off with a duress I have (Force, Daze, stifle and Bolt in hand)- I decide to do nothing since I don't see a profitable play. He goes ahead and takes the force and then follows it up with another duress. Damn. Well he hasn't made a land drop so hopefully the daze will be active- I daze the duress he pays for the daze and then proceeds to take the stifle. He then makes his land drop plays a dark ritual, a cabal ritual then hardcasts adnauseum. He first hits a past in flames then a cabal ritual, the untapped volcanic island in play and the lightning bolt in my hand say we are going to game 2.

In -1 pithing needle, 1 flusterstorm
out- 2 forked bolts


What are you naming with Needle vs. ANT?

[Emo]

Hello Emo, welcome you onboard!
Many thanks for the report! Well written and interesting one. I see you sb Diverts very often, and as I worte about it just few posts above, here comes a question: how they served you? I like them in vacuum, the effect is very powerful and diverting Hymn/Decay may be backbreaking. Otoh, from what experiences I gathered with the card, it never really felt good enough.

Also, no Submerges? You can't be serious... :-)

Just today when I sorted my RUG cards, I thought about Engineered Explosives. I played EE in Thresh, but... it was long time ago in the old NQGw list that sported CB and no Wasteland. In a deck that operates on one land, this card is quite strange. Yet it's the only reasonable answer to resolved TNN, not to mention it may help in DnT and similar matchups. Idk. On one hand it seems clunky, on the other hand it seems powerful. I guess I'll stay away from it, but I'm really glad that you've showed us that an unconventional sb is possible and may help you towards a solid result.

Congrats and again: welcome!

Thank you much for your response and I think you are right about EE, the more and more I play test with it, I find that as a one-of I never find it when I really need it, but I wouldn't want more than one either.

I just recently removed submerge from SB which may be a HUGE mistake but I wanted to try divert/misdirection instead because I figured it would give me an edge against BWR delver and Esperdeathblade MUs which I have been seeing a lot more of recently.

So far I have had mixed results with divert- When I do successful resolve a divert it is backbreaking and in some instances it just serves as an extra counterspell in a counterwar, but I would say it works for me a little less than half the time I side it in (but nothing feels better than diverting an abrupt decay to TNN:).




What are you naming with Needle vs. ANT?

I will chalk this up to me not being too familiar with the matchup and probably should have boarded a REB in instead- but in a snap decision I chose needle hoping to hit polluted delta-

[Demonic_Attorney]

So far I have had mixed results with divert- When I do successful resolve a divert it is backbreaking and in some instances it just serves as an extra counterspell in a counterwar, but I would say it works for me a little less than half the time I side it in (but nothing feels better than diverting an abrupt decay to TNN:).

So True!

Playing three (3) rough/ tumble is too much for a metagame plagued with so much combo and control right now. If you're having that much trouble with death and taxes try Sulfur Elemental. I opt to play Grafdigger's Cage over Crypt, Relic and Surgical Extraction because in addition to being good against reanimator and dredge, it is also good against elves.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I will chalk this up to me not being too familiar with the matchup and probably should have boarded a REB in instead- but in a snap decision I chose needle hoping to hit polluted delta-

Although I'm the one who won a game by turn1 Needle on Delta (the guy had two of them in hand and no other lands) it's still too risky and if you draw it later then turn1 or turn2, it's a dead draw. REB is your friend!
I completely missed that Divert may act like a cheap counterspells in stack wars, so the applications are bit broader then I thought. I'm still not sure if I like it, and the zero Submerges scare me. You will meet at least some Fores.dec, be it elves, Mav or anything with Goyf. Also: Tombstalker is a bitch.

[kravkenov]

As said, Compost at first sight it is a great card against black, but it is really that strong to take 2 or 3 sideboard slot ? I dont know yet, but I'm working on it ;)

Wipe Away were initially put in place of Echoing Truth because of Split Second, but being a 3 cmc 1UU is a big drawback. This is why I moved to Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth, both do a good job, sometime tricky when cast in answer to Liliana ability or other right timed play :) Returning all instance is exactly why I think Echoing Truth is the way to go : Miracles, Dredge and Batterskull get the hit. Chain of Vapor give a too big edge by allowing our opponent to sacrifice a land and use it back against us (because our opponent usually have way more land than us).

Well, after some serious testing, Compost dosent do the job, it's slow and usually dont stay long enough to worth 2-3 slots. Echoing Truth was sometimes good, but not that strong. Because you dont want to use it against cheap creature and it becones a dead or poor answer.

[Contract Killer]

Interesting tournament report. I tried Divert a while ago while UWR Delver was really popular, but with all their removal being 1 mana it never seemed very great most of the time being a blank. Now with more BUG builds being popular it might be worth it seeing as AD usually hits turn 2 or 3 and Divert is a hard counter here.

[Contract Killer]

so a few days ago some people at my LGS we're deck brewing looking through cards and the such trying to create a meta breaker. Anyways more to the point one card they found was seedtime and needless to say this card feels kind of bonkers. It's more or less 1g timewalk if an opponent played a blue spell this turn. Everyone knows timewalk is stupid beyond belief so do you think this could be worth playing with in the sb? Just seems kind of silly:
"play tarmogoyf"
"opponent Force"
"daze"
"opponent ok"
"seedtime take an extra turn bash with tarmogoyf" :eek:
The fact that our spell doesn't even have to be countered just if our opponent plays a blue spell. It also makes EOT brainstorms to shuffle away bad cards really good for us. Just a thought I doubt it will turn into anything playable, but it seems silly enough to warrant a try. In a world where we can divert abrupt decays to their owner's TNN anything is possible right? The only downside is it's kind of a three mana spell. You essentially want to bait out a counterspell of sorts whether that be with added pressure or removal doesn't matter, though it still causes us to spend 1 - 2 mana on spell A then 2 mana for seedtime. What are your thoughts?

[poxy14]

Top 8'ed today's tourney..(4-1-1), 7th placed finished, losing quarterfinals and my lone loss to one guy vs esperdeathblade..tourney report to follow, after a few hours rest hehe...my other deck oops, went on to finish 5th after a perfect run on the swiss..we went home with a tnn and a horizon canopy..good day indeed..my only tweaks from the basic are maindeck 1tnn, 1snare, 1izzet charm...cu guys in a bit. im sure theyre going to post the results over at tcdecks very soon..GO RUG!

[trollking21]

so a few days ago some people at my LGS we're deck brewing looking through cards and the such trying to create a meta breaker. Anyways more to the point one card they found was seedtime and needless to say this card feels kind of bonkers. It's more or less 1g timewalk if an opponent played a blue spell this turn. Everyone knows timewalk is stupid beyond belief so do you think this could be worth playing with in the sb? Just seems kind of silly:
"play tarmogoyf"
"opponent Force"
"daze"
"opponent ok"
"seedtime take an extra turn bash with tarmogoyf" :eek:
The fact that our spell doesn't even have to be countered just if our opponent plays a blue spell. It also makes EOT brainstorms to shuffle away bad cards really good for us. Just a thought I doubt it will turn into anything playable, but it seems silly enough to warrant a try. In a world where we can divert abrupt decays to their owner's TNN anything is possible right? The only downside is it's kind of a three mana spell. You essentially want to bait out a counterspell of sorts whether that be with added pressure or removal doesn't matter, though it still causes us to spend 1 - 2 mana on spell A then 2 mana for seedtime. What are your thoughts?

What would this replace out of your sideboard? i feel like this is a situational card, that if it goes off is dumb but may push necessary things out of the sideboard

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello people! Poxy, I'm happy to read about your finish, I look forward to the report!

On Seedtime: I thought about it few days ago when I looked through my binders. Basically it is a Time Walk, as the field is 75% blue. Sadly, it's conditional and it would mak our deck inconsistent. We need only three kinds of cards: threats, anwers and cantrips to find our threats and answers. Cool cards are.. exactly that, only cool, but not really necessary. I'm not even sure what I would cut for it. But yeah, if anybody finds room and shows us how to play Seedtime, I'd be the first one to use. I love the card!

[Contract Killer]

What would this replace out of your sideboard? i feel like this is a situational card, that if it goes off is dumb but may push necessary things out of the sideboard

Not sure yet I mean this is what a core rug sideboard looks like:
3 pyroblast
2 submerge (probably 3, but 2 is minimum)
2 - 3 other combo hate
2 board sweepers rough, sulfur elemental, lavamancer etc
1 artifact hate
1 graveyard hate
After that the sideboards just very anything from extra burn with sulfuric or price to TNN. It would essentially take up one of these 4 sideboard spots.





On Seedtime: I thought about it few days ago when I looked through my binders. Basically it is a Time Walk, as the field is 75% blue. Sadly, it's conditional and it would mak our deck inconsistent. We need only three kinds of cards: threats, anwers and cantrips to find our threats and answers. Cool cards are.. exactly that, only cool, but not really necessary. I'm not even sure what I would cut for it. But yeah, if anybody finds room and shows us how to play Seedtime, I'd be the first one to use. I love the card!

Right I understand it's kind of narrow, but doesn't it do everything we want? If it resolves it: cantrips, does a bolt to the head if we have a creature on the field, and allows us to advance our boardstate with extra mana. It seems like it has promise I might try testing it after the ptq I have coming up this Saturday.

[poxy14]

Thanks Beddecks!

7th with TeamBudget RUG,
(PAENG CUP, __man tourney, dont know yet the exact count from yesterday's tourney, will update this..)

standard RUG with minor tweaks...
3 mongoose
1 TNN
1 snare
1 izzet charm
2 pierce
2 forked bolts

SB: scouting report from our teammates, meta was DnT (we have 2 already playing that archetype in the team), Snt's and reanimators..
1 grudge, 1 D.revelry, 3 pyroblasts, 3 submerges, 1 needle, 1 sulfur elemental, 1 grafdiggers cage, 1 tormod's, 1 pierce, 2 roughs

dropped vendilion for sulfur, dropped 2nd needle coz i thought i already have another white hate via sulfur, dropped 2nd cage for crypt so my gyhate vs animator will not be one just one card (anti echoing)...

match1 (0-2 esper death blade) 0-1
just wasnt able to keep em off manas, did everything by stifling fetches, but he just keeps on drawing lands, thus resolving a liliana, that slaughtered my geese, then batterskull at some point mid game..i should have had 8 stifles vs this deck!
(out number of fows, dazes, in rough, artifact hate, needle)

match2 (2-0 DnT) 1-1
im glad i benched tarfires this time and went back to 2 forked for max value...
izzet was mvp here, at some point he attacked with mom carrying a jitte (stifled jitte trigger) then izzet mom...
was able to Izzet pierce effect a RIP he was trying to resolve...
(out number of fows, dazes, pierces 1 goyf , in rough, artifact hate, needle, sulfur)

match3 (2-0 Jund) 2-1
how come i was paired with em FAIR decks! i was waiting for combos!
game 1 i was able to land 2 fast delvers and that was it, he tried racing me with 2 goyfs, until i landed some geese to just block it, and me ravaging the skies..
game 2 were he mulled to 5, cracked an early fetch for a forest, just to avoid stifle...he was able to get back on track quickly as my clock came in late...vs 2 goyfs, bob, bloodbraid into drs i was losing this battle...i have flipped delver, 1 goyf, 1 threshed geese...both no hands, until i draw rough that made it a 3 to 1 spell, he draws blank and decided to just block anything from my goose and goyf...clock is ticking with delver...nuts draw when i drew bolt, killing one of his blockers, then a submerge later on...
(out number of fows, dazes, in rough, needle, submerges)

match4 (my wish is granted 2-0 MonoUomnitell) 3-1
started with a delver, he landed island...no way im battling merfolks! then he started preordaining and knew exactly to drop em bolts via brainstorm fetch and search for answers...glad i did, 2nd game was the same i have multiple dazes, lone izzet charm, 2 fow with a delver..when he was about to go off, i countered show 3 times and that was it...
(out number burn spells,1 goyf in pyroblasts, sulfur for 1 goyf, 1 destructive revelry for dreamhalls)

match5 (2-1 esper deathblade) 4-1
again my delvers are very cooperative as i kept a 1 lander with 2 daze backup, started with delver, it flipped...drew wasteland and that was it, as i drew a pair of flyers that made it so quick...game 2 i lost via not having a volc/fetch were i needed to pyroblast baleful strix/snapcaster, my hand is awesome with 2 pyros and some burn, just wasnt able to interact with my lands...game 3 was like game 1! nice game indeed!
(occasional switching of fows,pierce,dazes...in pyroblasts (for creeping tarpit too) artifact hate, needle

match6 (ID, upon seeing the results i was already in 5th seed, so POXY's in the TOP8!


TOP8 (0-2 esper deathblade)
was paired with the same guy (RAL) who wrecked me game 1...
results are just about the same! game 2 were i kept delver, forked waste, stifle...him landing drs = burned, i flipped a delver, wasted usea, stifled strand....that should be IT right!...just wasnt enuff as he drew lands and spells to get the game into midrange where they really strive... didnt bothered including in pyroblasts as i wasnt able to see any tnns during our past games, game 2 quarters he landed 2, daze the first one but i have no any other weapon for the second : (

beside me is my team8 PHILIP, who's seeded 1st, piloting my other deck ooops allspells...
unfortunately he lost a very favorable battle vs burn, we were able to win good cards for our pool (tnn, canopy)
my other teammate TOMMIE, was able to get into the prize pool in the top16 with RUG, (gitaxian built)

deck felt solid, as i was matched mostly to fair decks...that i dont want too..
with the inclusion of a lone snare, izzet, 2 forked bolts...it gave me much confidence battling such..
im planning to cut the 4th goyf...not much of a help since i always sideboarded out 1 vs decks running white, or just included sulfur for its instant ability rather that tapping out for a 2 drop vs any unfair..will test 1 vendilion cliq, or go back to my 4th goose or my second tnn (which i felt too slow, that's why i cut the 2nd from a previous tweak), i also missed the 2nd needle! i just wasnt able to find room for it.

Good Day after all, making this deck score another point over at tcdecks, will surely help......coz i know we are still a DTB!
GO RUG!

[ShiftyKapree]

1-4th Place: Eli Kassis
3 Spell Pierce
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Hydroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster

What are your guys take on this list, I threw it together this weekend for a bit from the standard rug version I had. I don't get much time to play test but I think I would want to cut the spell snare, and 3 spell pierces for 4 stifles. I always find use for stifle and rarely board it out I feel most people don't take full advantage of the card. I did like Young Pyromancer, what are peoples thoughts on it? I also noticed an increase in Rug top 8ing and could see it being a DTB again next time they circle the threads.

[Contract Killer]

it's an interesting list. Overall I'm not a huge fan of young pyromancer right now because all of the -x/-1 effects for TNN overlap and hit the pyromancer package. Rug will be a DTB next time around it's won or at least 1st/2nd at 6/8 of the last SCG events right? Temporal mastery is cute, but too sketchy if you ask me. Snapcaster is ok as a one of, but he's kind of spendy at 3 mana when we're playing cards like daze and wasteland setting us back on land drops. It looks kind of reminiscent of the 4 color edric spymaster list that just won recently.

[Purgatory]

Nice to see people doing well with the deck. I plan to attend two tournaments over easter, and though right now it looks like I'll play Patriot (choosing between Patriot, Thresh and Team America), I might sleeve up Thresh for one of the two.

Also, I want to apologise for my tardiness when it comes to writing the sideboarding guide and matchup analyses, it's the parts where I'm least comfortable when it comes to the deck, since I find especially the latter to be quite arbitrary. Work has also been kicking my ass lately, and taken up way more time than usually. I'm hoping to have at least the bare basics done by next week.

Regarding the sideboard guide, I find that giving exact numbers is fallacious, since, speaking from my point of view at least, a lot of the sideboarding in the deck is done on gut feeling. For example, I've played against opponents who very conservatively play around Stifle or Daze, and so I'm more likely to sideboard those out for games 2 and 3, since it's likely that the cards themselves won't do anything, and my opponent will still play around them. In this case, I may keep Force in even when it's "wrong" to do so, since I'd rather have a card that does something than nothing, even if it's bad against many match-ups.

The sideboarding guide will therefore contain general guidelines, key cards, and what is popularly taken out/in, but no exact numbers. The aim is to let every pilot develop the skill and develop fingertoppskänsla (approx. "flair" or "sure instinct" according to my translator, both inadequate in my opinion) for the idea of sideboarding with Thresh. Similarly, the match-up analyses will contain brief tips for developing a plan against each DTB, but no exact numbers, i.e. no "45/55 in their favour".

How does that sound?

[ShiftyKapree]

Regarding the sideboard guide, I find that giving exact numbers is fallacious, since, speaking from my point of view at least, a lot of the sideboarding in the deck is done on gut feeling. For example, I've played against opponents who very conservatively play around Stifle or Daze, and so I'm more likely to sideboard those out for games 2 and 3, since it's likely that the cards themselves won't do anything, and my opponent will still play around them. In this case, I may keep Force in even when it's "wrong" to do so, since I'd rather have a card that does something than nothing, even if it's bad against many match-ups.

The sideboarding guide will therefore contain general guidelines, key cards, and what is popularly taken out/in, but no exact numbers. The aim is to let every pilot develop the skill and develop fingertoppskänsla (approx. "flair" or "sure instinct" according to my translator, both inadequate in my opinion) for the idea of sideboarding with Thresh. Similarly, the match-up analyses will contain brief tips for developing a plan against each DTB, but no exact numbers, i.e. no "45/55 in their favour".

How does that sound?

I've been playing Rug since delver was introduced to the format, I rarely board out daze and stifle. Even on the draw I don't board daze out, the card I board out the most in just about every match-up is FOW. The draw back of losing a blue card to it means games. I hate pitching cards to it. The sideboard I've been running the most of is 1 sulfur elemental, 1 V-Clique, 2 REB, 1 Pyroblast, 3 Submerge, 1 grafdiggers, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Kgrip, 1 Ancient Grudge and 2 rough/tumble. I consider flusterstorm a flex spot mostly. I do like life of the loam a lot in the deck, it's won me so many games. I plan on trying out a Divert or a Ghost quarter in the future. For boarding against BUG I board out FOW and bring in 3 Submerge and Spell Pierce. For Elves I board out usually Daze depending on the play or draw and board in Rough/Tumble, Graf and 1 Spell Pierce. For DnT I board out usually FOW and bring in Sulfur, 2 Rough/Tumble and 1 Grudge. For SnT I board out Lightningbolt and play the 3 blasts and 1 Pierce. I can't think of any match-ups really right now. I mean its kind of obvious to me on what to take out and what to board in for match-ups since I've been playing the deck for a long ass time.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How does that sound?
Pretty good. Also, I think we should start to use fingertoppskänsla as a new MtG terminus technicus. :-)
I like the idea of general guidelines, and I hope that you'll find a way how to keep space for every pilot while simultaneously making a helpful sb recipe.
Also, I hope that you'll find time and courage to bring RUG to one of the tournaments you've mentioned, it'll be lovely to make some other result. Good luck!



I've been playing Rug since delver was introduced to the format, I rarely board out daze and stifle. Even on the draw I don't board daze out, the card I board out the most in just about every match-up is FOW. The draw back of losing a blue card to it means games. I hate pitching cards to it. The sideboard I've been running the most of is 1 sulfur elemental, 1 V-Clique, 2 REB, 1 Pyroblast, 3 Submerge, 1 grafdiggers, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Kgrip, 1 Ancient Grudge and 2 rough/tumble. I consider flusterstorm a flex spot mostly. I do like life of the loam a lot in the deck, it's won me so many games. I plan on trying out a Divert or a Ghost quarter in the future. For boarding against BUG I board out FOW and bring in 3 Submerge and Spell Pierce. For Elves I board out usually Daze depending on the play or draw and board in Rough/Tumble, Graf and 1 Spell Pierce. For DnT I board out usually FOW and bring in Sulfur, 2 Rough/Tumble and 1 Grudge. For SnT I board out Lightningbolt and play the 3 blasts and 1 Pierce. I can't think of any match-ups really right now. I mean its kind of obvious to me on what to take out and what to board in for match-ups since I've been playing the deck for a long ass time.
Yeah, you're pretty much right. I sb out one or two Dazes on draw, and I nearly never take out Stifles, unless there's zero targets for it (does such a deck even exist?); I also quite often take out most of FoWs, and Spell Snare/Pierce and or Forked Bolt come out in matchups where they don't matter.
I don't sb Bolts too often, except against heavy control (and even then it's a questionable choice to take them out, as every Bolt works like poor man's Time Walk; otoh, we need creatures, some ways to protect them and an out to CB/Entreat/younameit, so maybe cutting Bolts is necessary).
As Purgatory wrote, there are times when I hesitate to sb out FoWs, as it's versatile card and there are matchups where you need it, because there are many different threats and you can't solve them with specialized cards. But I don't have any example at ready...

[Purgatory]

I think we should start to use fingertoppskänsla as a new MtG terminus technicus. :-)

I completely concur, and I'll be sure to use it in the guide :)

Thanks for the feedback so far guys!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

A question:
I looked through the cousin thread (bUrg Tempo) and I noticed a very strange, yet a bit interesting card being advocated as a sb slot. It's meant as a protection from Abrupt Decays (and "REB your bug" types of play) that spoil our fun every now and then. The card?

Mizzium Skin

Is it any good? It costs as few mana as possible and on rare occasions (FB/Pyrokinesis targeting two unflipped Delvers) it may save two dudes. Otoh, it's extremely narrow. Even the bonus is unworthy, as Goyfs already can't kill themselves, and Insectiles would still die.
IDK. It stops Swords to Plows and might be good against Pyroclasm or Jitte counters.

[Purgatory]

I think it's way too narrow.

[ShiftyKapree]

A question:
I looked through the cousin thread (bUrg Tempo) and I noticed a very strange, yet a bit interesting card being advocated as a sb slot. It's meant as a protection from Abrupt Decays (and "REB your bug" types of play) that spoil our fun every now and then. The card?

Mizzium Skin

Is it any good? It costs as few mana as possible and on rare occasions (FB/Pyrokinesis targeting two unflipped Delvers) it may save two dudes. Otoh, it's extremely narrow. Even the bonus is unworthy, as Goyfs already can't kill themselves, and Insectiles would still die.
IDK. It stops Swords to Plows and might be good against Pyroclasm or Jitte counters.

I honestly would rather play divert than that card considering, I haven't tested it in a but being able to blow up a tarmgoyf or deathrite from divert is hilarious and good. Most likely depending on the next tournament I attend if bug is still in huge numbers I'm going to play divert. I'm in my last semester now so I really haven't had time to play anything except EDH and some legacy games.

[sawatarix]

I have had long discussions concerning RUG in the past,present and especially in the future with my group of experienced players and there were interesting brews/cardchoices we worked on.
That's the List i would play right right now:

Deck: "The pure RUG-Star"

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:10
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
3 Forked Bolt
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge


The preordain also could be the 7th removal i guess.
Played in a local tournament last week and succeed.
The deck is a bit slower than the current stock list but plays very similar to the traditional canadian ******** list (4 goose+4 goyf),kinda controlish.
The big advantage is that we don't have to use force of will to protect our creatures because they have shroud obviously.(exeption:delver which gets sometimes boardet out postboard)
The games turnes put like this:
You land a thread they can't handle and then disrupt all their plans with infinite countermagic/removal.
And it works pretty well so far.

Ideas and feedback are appreciated,sawatarix


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's the List i would play right right now:

Deck: "The pure RUG-Star"

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:10
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis
...

Ideas and feedback are appreciated,sawatarix

I don't know. It's nice to have creatures that don't need nursing (except for Delver, but yeah, he's meant to deal nine damage and then TNN finishes the game), but I still think that Goyf is too fast and big to not include it. You may play a 3/4 Goyf on turn2 and then it blocks all the annoying creatures ever (Lackey, most of DnT dudes, Confidant, etc.) or it immediatelly starts dealing damage in matchups where it matters (combo and control).
But the fact that the deck is less reliable on grave and that TNN presents a reasonable clock/block, moreover one that's nearly impossible to get rid of... well, maybe this is viable approach.
Btw, any chance the deck would improve with one USea somewhere in there andthe Dismembers switched to Decays? No, I don't wanna sidegrade the pile into bUrg, after all, there's not a single DRS in it, but I'd be interested in opinion about Dismember vs. Decay. But I guess Wasteland is a card, so why make the manabase fragile just because of one or two cards.

[poxy14]

@sawatarix: ive tried playing that same crit config last month but with (4 delvers, 3 goose, 3 goyfs, 2 tnns)
with already 12 crits, sometimes i cant draw a clock, after lots of cantripping... (though a landed delver and goyf can easily be targeted), i agree that with ur list, the only thing we need to protect is them delvers...

sometimes i miss goyf, when i face dredge, tribal decks, burn, goyf dec...
but literally fast vs slow decks... i usually board em out when i see white (rip) and rely with them too when i face burn...when mongoose is real slow vs a resolved gob guide..
my deck that top'ed last sunday was (4 delvers, 3 goose, 4 goyfs, 1 tnn)
goyfs did nothing against removals, and this is were i missed the 4th goose.. or the 2nd tnn...

this May 4 ill be going with this list (4 delvers, 3 goyfs, 3 goose, 1 tnn and 1 vendilion clique)
tnn is slow, but gives us game mid range...i'll take away some its' slowness by replacing it with a cliq..
i'll test this sat and give u guys updates...

[Contract Killer]

Well boys I would like to present to you the newest edition to RUG removal:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/journey-into-nyx/22343-spite-of-mogis
I mean it doesn't deal damage to the face which is a huge bummer in the matches where they don't have creatures (combo, miracles, etc). The thing that this card does bring to the table is an out to resolved batterskulls, goyf stalemates, tombstalkers and pretty much any targetable creature in the format. Hell we might even be able to kill a resolved griselbrand now not that we should let it resolve to begin with, but extra outs are nice. The scry as an extra bit of card filter seems really good as well. Overall in the course of a game we by turn 3 or 4 (from my experience) have done at least 1 cantrip, 1 counterspell and 1 removal. The downsides are blanking as a turn 1 removal spell for deathrite among other creatures. What are your thoughts?

[Blitzkreuz]

At first I really thought wow,this will replace my forked bolts,but you said it yourself,it cannot deal with sth as first turn answer (deathrite or mother). Maybe as 1 off?

Or maybe sideboard material? Would definitely kill those damn Kotr. I hate them^^ but is maverick such a dominant deck in the format right now?

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

[Vain]

@Contract Killer
Spite of mogis seems pretty bad. Dismember or even flame slash would be better.

@Sawatarix
Glad to see more people cutting goyfs for True-names, as I think that currently TNN>goyf overall.
I play a very similar list to yours but with the following changes:

-3 spell pierce
-1 preordain
-2 Dismember
+3 gitaxian probe
+2 chain lightning
+1 spell snare

I don't really like dismember nor mainboard spell pierce. In my experience, dismember usually ends up as a 'pay 4 life destroy target delver/DRS'. It's a dead card against combo/control and paying 4 life sucks against decks like U/R delver. As for spell pierce, we already play 4 softcounters. Increasing that amount makes your mid- to late game a lot worse. On top of that, since you don't play goyfs, you won't use them as often to counter removal.

I play gitaxian probe for the following reasons:
- The deck is pretty low on creatures, so playing more cantrips doesn't seem like a bad idea.
- With the information of gitaxian probe you can sometimes choose to not play your delvers and pitch them to FoWs, blanking removal spells.
- Probe speeds up getting threshold.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

At first I really thought wow,this will replace my forked bolts,but you said it yourself,it cannot deal with sth as first turn answer (deathrite or mother). Maybe as 1 off?

Or maybe sideboard material? Would definitely kill those damn Kotr. I hate them^^ but is maverick such a dominant deck in the format right now?
I don't mind KotR, it's not played in big numbers and you got Surmerge for her. What is more frightening is non-Forested Tombstalker (all the Pox, WB, mono-B and similar decks; not that those are that usual) that you cannot Submerge and is too big for a sole Bolt. And of course Batterskull in any UW/non-G deck that is once again too big to burn and your only out is one Grudge. Still, the card seems narrow and the fact that it does very little in the opening turns when you need to remove the turn1 bug/DRS/MoR is what killed it.
Also, do we really need another card cold to RiP?


Vain, I like your reasoning. But I still can't send my Goyfs to bed, they are so good in tribal matchups. Also, I don't own any TNNs and I don't plan to buy any, the card is hiddeous (I may just as well start playing Infernal Tutors, Dark Confidants and Cabal Therapies), moreovoer I don't trust it will last for long. (But then again if they don't ban it on the next announcement, then they'll never do it.)

[cheerios]

To the guys playing TNN, have you not missed rough/tumble? Rough/tumble is one of the best sb cards for us. The card together with submerge just owns elves. The card is also pretty good against vial decks.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Emo]

I played in a small tournament last night with some mixed success going 2-2 losing to lands and deathblade and managing to beat imperial painter and miracles. I managed to steal a win from lands (which is a tough matchup) on the play game 2. Against deathblade I lost games 2 and 3 because of TNN. Everyone I encounter keeps on beating the same drum by saying the way to beat TNN is to "never to let it resolve", but those decks that play it run IOK/thoughtseize, hymn (on occassion), and substantial permission which more often than not, is enough to overpower our permission. In both games last night I had a superior board position with multiple green threats and cards in hand like bolt and pierce, but in both instances a topdecked TNN single-handedly took over the game. I honestly think the best way to deal with TNN is by including a small number of TNNs of our own as others have stated earlier in this thread. I bought a TNN yesterday and felt disgusted and ashamed with myself as a person :cry:.

I don't want to cut all my goyfs and can't decide what is a better split 2 goyf/2 TNNs or 3 goyf 1 TNN- what are other people's thoughts/ experience with the number of TNN's they run? The card seems clunky but also necessary.

[Myelectronicdays]

There are tnns all over my meta... im packing like 3 rebs and 3 pyros in my SB.. those dudes never hit the board.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Emo, I got similar feeling like you got, it's extremely hard to counter TNN esp. preboard when we don't have those additional Blasts. I guess I should swallow my pride and purchase one TNN and see what happens. That, or maybe use Clique to fly over the ground stalls and take away their equips, Termini and ITs.
I think one TNN should be enough. You got lots of digging power to find a singleton gamebreaking card, and honestly, it's not like RUG with it's manabase and no acceleration may play more than one, two at the very most.
I'm just throwing some stuff on MKM, so once I'll acquire enough funds for the ugly rogue, I'll get myself one copy. If they ban it, so be it. Guess I may use it in EDH...

A small idea: What are people's opinions on these two creatures:
Riptide Pilferer (to fight combo and control)
Trygon Predator (to fly over TNN and eat BSK, Jitte and such)

I guess their far too expensive and/or they lack at least one in power (Pilferer) or thoughness (Predator) to be relevant in combat and withstand usual removal. Otoh, I'm starting to hate all those Vials, Jittes, CBs and similar stuff, and Pilferer is (may be) quite solid against combo to prevent their sculpting. With Crypt/Relic, they can't PiF you out of nowhere, and SnT doesn't like to discard cards either.
But I need to admit that I got soft spot for Trygon Predator ever since I played NQGw in a Counterbalance/CotV infested metagame, and it was much better in a deck with 18 real lands and an occasional Werebear to pay for Daze. Pilferer seems like a very funny card, and its effect is pretty unexpected in blue shell, otoh, it's not like tapping for 1/1 on turn2 is without danger, so yes, maybe it's just that, a funny card.



There are tnns all over my meta... im packing like 3 rebs and 3 pyros in my SB.. those dudes never hit the board.
How does your board look like? I'd say one may cut some number of Flusters, as REBs may work in the Storm or Miracles mu, but still, it's whopping six slots occupied with what's simply one card, so I'm pretty interested what have you done with your sb. (Not that I never thought about six REBs before, just that it's a confessed fear and you may lack those slots in other matchups.)

[Contract Killer]

TNN should stay out of our md at the very least. The card is just bad in every way with what we're trying to accomplish. In addition he's so bad against combo when you have to tap out where with goyf you could leave at least one mana up or play him a turn earlier. Playing a 3 mana threat significantly lowers the power of daze since we need more mana and we're wanting to wasteland/daze them.
Now as for playing against him to say the least just run more burn to aim at the head. With my 8 bolt plan I haven't really had any issue with him and denying their mana helps a lot too. If you force them to counter your stifles you'll have more permission for TNN itself. Sideboard 2 price of progress really do help to deal with the TNN shells since all the decks that run him UWR, BUG, deathblade etc have absurd mana bases. All those decks extend to at least 4 non basics at any one time.

[poxy14]

I personally hate that abomination too(tnn), find it too uninteractive and unfun..but rug's ability to adjust and adapt to current situations made this archetype so good the past years..red,blue and green offers amazing tools and that kept us strong battling adversities...i think its bout time to readjust..i hate tnn, but what can i do..if only i would be able to keep every tnn.dec from going to three manas, or counter it without my opponent countering back..then thats good game for my ground green armies, but once resolved..usually 8 of these folds on just ONE card..and that sucks..i would however suggest to cut one goyf, if ur planning to test tnn, 2 is clunky, and ive tested it..several times i just pitch my tnn to fow to counter a tnn..if its a goyf or a goose, it should be over for us..goyf trumps tribal, but is very vulnerable to removals..a combo of 1tnn, 1cliq, 3goose, 3goyfs and 4delvers excites me..i once pondered maindecking a sulfur vs fourth goyf when dnts were rampant..we have answers.to evrything and tnn. We just need to adjust a bit..once again.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yeah, I think both of you are right. The eight bolts builds should fare well against slower decks esp. if they rely on SFM->BSK->TNN to stop our initial onslaught. A ground 3/1 dude shouldn't be that threatening if you manage to slow down theirdevelopment long enough to let their life points drop below ten or so where Chain Lightning Bolts should end the game.
I guess that TNN is pretty weak in RUG. We don't want to tap out for it jus tto let the opponent get himself out of Stifle lock, or resolve Terminus or simply combo out. And, if there's some build that may use the ugly merfolk, I think that 4/4/3/1/1 split of Delver, Mongoose, Goyf, TNN and Clique may be the best. You'll have some fast flyer, a hard-to-remove ground beater, solid wall and a quick attacker, a dude to breakthrough in the midgame and an evasive and disruptive flash faerie.

[Emo]

Sideboard 2 price of progress really do help to deal with the TNN shells since all the decks that run him UWR, BUG, deathblade etc have absurd mana bases. All those decks extend to at least 4 non basics at any one time.

I hadn't thought about this but you are absolutely right about POP- It shines against the greedy mana bases that run TNN- I will try running two of these in the board because it so happens to be another great card against lands (another matchup I hate)


I ..a combo of 1tnn, 1cliq, 3goose, 3goyfs and 4delvers excites me..i once pondered maindecking a sulfur vs fourth goyf when dnts were rampant..we have answers.to evrything and tnn. We just need to adjust a bit..once again.


Yeah, I think both of you are right. The eight bolts builds should fare well against slower decks esp. if they rely on SFM->BSK->TNN to stop our initial onslaught. A ground 3/1 dude shouldn't be that threatening if you manage to slow down theirdevelopment long enough to let their life points drop below ten or so where Chain Lightning Bolts should end the game.
I guess that TNN is pretty weak in RUG. We don't want to tap out for it jus tto let the opponent get himself out of Stifle lock, or resolve Terminus or simply combo out. And, if there's some build that may use the ugly merfolk, I think that 4/4/3/1/1 split of Delver, Mongoose, Goyf, TNN and Clique may be the best. You'll have some fast flyer, a hard-to-remove ground beater, solid wall and a quick attacker, a dude to breakthrough in the midgame and an evasive and disruptive flash faerie.

Thank you and I agree that the split of 1 TNN 1 Clique seems versatile and well suited for the mid game and is the optimal split, I think I am going to try out either the 4/4/3/1/1 split or the 4/3/3/1/1 split.

[ShiftyKapree]

I would never play TNN in rug it's unnecessary to play it as a oppose to a goyf. TNN is only good imo anything with SFM other than that its not that great. Clique on the other hand I like a lot more and have played one in my board for the past 9 months I'd say. But I think the direction we want to discuss with the deck is that do we play Young Pyromancer over Tarmogoyf or continue with the same list. Young Pyromancer basically changes the deck, we drop stifle and goyf for 4 YP and 4 Git probes. I never liked Git probe with the list and I went back to play forked bolt but in the meta today YP seems really strong against most decks and we will continue getting value from YP after its been taken off the board. Playing git probe will give us knowledge on the deck and how we want to set up turn one, also what to prepare for and counter. As oppose to stifling a fetch or wasteland. If I do switch to YP I know my sideboard will be entirely different than what it is now. But if you guys think TNN is the direction you want to take the deck you're completely wrong, TNN is only good with equipment's. Also you should be playing a mixture of 3 REB/Pyroblasts in your board to begin with for SNT decks.

[carefulmug]

On TNN:

True-Name satisfies certain roles of each creature RUG traditionally runs. Like Delver, it is an evasive creature we can pitch to Force; like Mongoose, it is an untargetable threat; and like Tarmogoyf, it can sit back and block anything on the ground.

The difference, of course, is in its CMC. However, if it replaces Tarmogoyf as a 2-of as Sawatarix suggests, the mana cost is more excusable, particularly if we increase our cantrip count as Sawatarix also suggests.

While Sawatarix suggests preordain, I agree with Vain and would opt for cantrips 9-11 (and even 12) to be in the form of Gitaxian Probe to help alleviate overall CMC (since 4x 2cc spells (tarm) are being replaced with 2x 3cc spells (tnn) and 2x 0cc spells (g. probe)) while increasing land drops and speeding up Mongoose, which is something we should be doing even before the event that we drop to 10 creatures.

[ShiftyKapree]

TNN is terrible in the deck because it will make you tap out to cast it, Idk how the rest of you RUG players feel about tapping out but I never do. It shouldn't even be brought up in the thread to play the card, you all just need to tuck your boners in for it. The card is terrible against BUG, SNT, Storm, any SFM deck (they have equip), Elves, Jund. Basically the whole meta, Name one deck that it benefits us against. Absolutely NONE! So just end it with that terrible card. You're wasting my time reading your post of an irrelevant card for the deck. And being that we only run 12 creatures in the deck and everyone has their guns cocked and loaded for TNN in there sideboards just isn't going to benefit us now is it?

[cartothemax]

For those that have Clique in your sideboard. When do you typically bring it in?

I am starting to think that it should just be a mainboard card to free up some space in the sideboard (-1 Goyf +1 Clique) after reading everyones opinions on the matter.

Because I bring her in against Miracles, all combo, and SFM.dec. This ends up being a LOT of the meta.

What's are people's thoughts?

-Thanks

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wow, ShiftyKapree, we must have really upset you! :smile:

What I like about RUG is its elegance and it's straightforward and brutal approach, though sometimes it goes in vain.
I think that TNN and/or YP builds should take a direction of bUrg or Bant, because they definitely need (or at least have use for) DRS or Hierarch. Without the druid, TNN is clunky and slow. Also, meta is slowly adapting to TNN (and Elves plus DnT are everywhere), so I would stay away from YP, unless I would feel like I need a change. Every Golgari Charm or Rough or Clasm or whatnot would really hurt.

6 Pyroblasts are answer to TNN should it bother you. 8 burn are also answer to TNN; by the time they resolve it (note that they need to play around your counters no matter if you really have them), those additional four Lightnings should do the job. Yes, Thresh may lose to DRS->SFM->BSK->TNN nuts hands, but then again every deck loses to it and this is not a usual opening seven. Removal helps in this cases as it hinders their mana development and makes it harder to play around our Dazes (when aimed at DRS/Hierarch/BoP), or it slows (literally stops) Batterskull for long enough to make the card not matter (when we kill the SFM). Yes, 8TNNs Merfolks are annoying matchup and nigh impossible to beat, but it's definitely a different deck than everydays [name]Blade, UWR, bUrg or similar decks packing TNN; decks that tend to crumble if you remove their main component, be it DRS or Mystic.

My only concern right now that prevents me from switching to eight bolts version is that I dislike to play without Snare (Goyf, CB, IT, BW, RiP, Hymn, etc.) esp. in quite a combo heavy metagame. The other thing that pesters me is the increased fragility of Abberations, so I think I'll try 4 LB / 4 FB split.

[cartothemax]

TNN is terrible in the deck because it will make you tap out to cast it, Idk how the rest of you RUG players feel about tapping out but I never do. It shouldn't even be brought up in the thread to play the card, you all just need to tuck your boners in for it. The card is terrible against BUG, SNT, Storm, any SFM deck (they have equip), Elves, Jund. Basically the whole meta, Name one deck that it benefits us against. Absolutely NONE! So just end it with that terrible card. You're wasting my time reading your post of an irrelevant card for the deck. And being that we only run 12 creatures in the deck and everyone has their guns cocked and loaded for TNN in there sideboards just isn't going to benefit us now is it?

I agree TNN isn't where we want to be. The meta is shifting more and more towards mid-range. This is where TNN thrives. Rather then joining the party I say we stay in the early game and keep our opponents in the early game (Stifle, Daze, Wasteland) I believe the point of the 8 bolt plan was to end the game as fast as possible and is in direct response to the slow down that is happening. Ending the game as fast as possible while still keeping the flexibility to have game against combo is what RUG Delver was designed to do, no? TNN goes against that plan. Clique is better in this plan. She keeps the flexibility and allows us to do it on our opponents turn. Not only do we tap out for TNN usually, but we don't have the best tools to fight back against the hate that people board in other then Force (a card we often board out).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ cartothemax: You're right about the "counterclockwise" move we have to do: if meta shifts to more midrange, we should move in the exact opposite direction and try to be even more fast so that the midrange decks lose before they may overwhelm us. The one factor, though, that makes this a bit more harder goal, is a presence of any combo that is (of course) even more fast than Thresh. I guess that 8 bolts build needs veeery strong sb to compete against TES/ANT/SnT/gravedecks, as without those additional Snares and Pierces, g1 is easy to lose.
Otoh, fast combo forces the fair decks (and esp. control) to have tools that may be suboptimal against Thresh, e.g. Counterspell (as seen as a one or two of in some Miracles lists), but other than that, many of the cards that are good against combo (like discard, taxing effects, REBs, RiP, etc.), are also powerful against RUG.

[cheerios]

For those that have Clique in your sideboard. When do you typically bring it in?

I am starting to think that it should just be a mainboard card to free up some space in the sideboard (-1 Goyf +1 Clique) after reading everyones opinions on the matter.

Because I bring her in against Miracles, all combo, and SFM.dec. This ends up being a LOT of the meta.

What's are people's thoughts?

-Thanks

I'm already playing that configuration and added 1EE to the SB to combat TNN. Clique is MD material as of the moment due to the rise of combo and D & T. It's also good vs TNN decks as it has evasion and can remove equipment or TNN from an opponent's hand.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[carefulmug]

TNN is terrible in the deck because it will make you tap out to cast it, Idk how the rest of you RUG players feel about tapping out but I never do. It shouldn't even be brought up in the thread to play the card, you all just need to tuck your boners in for it. The card is terrible against BUG, SNT, Storm, any SFM deck (they have equip), Elves, Jund. Basically the whole meta, Name one deck that it benefits us against. Absolutely NONE! So just end it with that terrible card. You're wasting my time reading your post of an irrelevant card for the deck. And being that we only run 12 creatures in the deck and everyone has their guns cocked and loaded for TNN in there sideboards just isn't going to benefit us now is it?

TNN doesn't make you tap out for it. In fact, no card that I know of "makes" you tap out to cast it, and I don't think anybody is advocating for regularly tapping out to play spells. Anyway, players running TNN modify their approach to land drops and typically do not hold as many back in their hands.

In regards to the matchups you've suggested, Tarmogoyf isn't much better and may frequently be worse. For instance, I'd rather have a TNN against Elves than a Tarm who will be endlessly blocked via Symbiote+Elf, Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor, or any chump blocker. I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm in the event that my opponent has a Tarm, and I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm if my opponent has any targeted removal. In the combo matchup, Tarm will probably be better than a TNN, sure, but we're typically ahead in those matchups already, aren't we?

Also, your aggressive and derogatory attitude is in now way conducive to proving your point..

Do you really think, if I went to a large tournament, I'd play Dreadnoughts? Or TNN? Or any of the other things that myself and others are suggesting right now? No, not right out the gate. I'd play a stock, 12 creature list w/ Tarms all day.

But this is a place for new ideas to be exchanged, and for old ones to be challenged. And every time you try to stamp out an idea that does not conform to yours, you are creating an environment of hostility and immaturity that we should all be trying to move away from.

Be cool.

[poxy14]

i can always tap out casting TNN, provided i was able to to exhaust all their resources..i mean mana resources and me with backup counters..
if it's a goyf, delver.. it can easily fold to 1 mana removals, by them hitting 2 manas we're vulnerable to RIP already...we can and we have answers for these.

im just adding variations, the deck we have is versatile on its own...we should never stop to EVOLVE..
(4-3-3-1-1) is a good split, the final being the cliq as it lessens our 3drop castable only on our turn...cliq can steal opposing tnns too once were ahead..thus giving us another space in the sideboards..goyf is just muscle, i just hate it when i have multiples just to lose to RIP, or when im bout to put in a huge clock and just losing this to STP..

i battled a mirrors, tombstalker, batterskull, griselbrands, chunks of tokens...and once i landed a TNN, im more comfortable as long as im ahead in life..
RUG doesnt need multiple of these, 3 mana up is not our game...
but this is just part of the evolving process i see.

and discussing new techs here, really helps us to progress with the DECK we all love..
healthy and informative discussions are key to moving forward...with RUG!

[Myelectronicdays]

TNN doesn't make you tap out for it. In fact, no card that I know of "makes" you tap out to cast it, and I don't think anybody is advocating for regularly tapping out to play spells. Anyway, players running TNN modify their approach to land drops and typically do not hold as many back in their hands.

In regards to the matchups you've suggested, Tarmogoyf isn't much better and may frequently be worse. For instance, I'd rather have a TNN against Elves than a Tarm who will be endlessly blocked via Symbiote+Elf, Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor, or any chump blocker. I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm in the event that my opponent has a Tarm, and I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm if my opponent has any targeted removal. In the combo matchup, Tarm will probably be better than a TNN, sure, but we're typically ahead in those matchups already, aren't we?

Also, your aggressive and derogatory attitude is in now way conducive to proving your point..

Do you really think, if I went to a large tournament, I'd play Dreadnoughts? Or TNN? Or any of the other things that myself and others are suggesting right now? No, not right out the gate. I'd play a stock, 12 creature list w/ Tarms all day.

But this is a place for new ideas to be exchanged, and for old ones to be challenged. And every time you try to stamp out an idea that does not conform to yours, you are creating an environment of hostility and immaturity that we should all be trying to move away from.

Be cool.

buy this man a drink.

[Myelectronicdays]

I'm sure this has been beat to death.. and is probably outdated at this point with so many shamans on there.. but how does a -2 goyf +2 snap work in its place (for me goyf is usually the worse of the 3 creatures)... just curious before i playtest it next week.

or -2 goyf and 1 snap / 1 clique main.

[ShiftyKapree]

TNN doesn't make you tap out for it. In fact, no card that I know of "makes" you tap out to cast it, and I don't think anybody is advocating for regularly tapping out to play spells. Anyway, players running TNN modify their approach to land drops and typically do not hold as many back in their hands.

In regards to the matchups you've suggested, Tarmogoyf isn't much better and may frequently be worse. For instance, I'd rather have a TNN against Elves than a Tarm who will be endlessly blocked via Symbiote+Elf, Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor, or any chump blocker. I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm in the event that my opponent has a Tarm, and I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm if my opponent has any targeted removal. In the combo matchup, Tarm will probably be better than a TNN, sure, but we're typically ahead in those matchups already, aren't we?

Also, your aggressive and derogatory attitude is in now way conducive to proving your point..

Do you really think, if I went to a large tournament, I'd play Dreadnoughts? Or TNN? Or any of the other things that myself and others are suggesting right now? No, not right out the gate. I'd play a stock, 12 creature list w/ Tarms all day.

But this is a place for new ideas to be exchanged, and for old ones to be challenged. And every time you try to stamp out an idea that does not conform to yours, you are creating an environment of hostility and immaturity that we should all be trying to move away from.

Be cool.
The idea of running TNN has been beat to death in the old thread, many people have already tested it and few to little have succeeded in tournaments with the card in RUG. Also elves has been on the decline lately, and if you actually allow them to land a Symbiote or Quirion Ranger you deserve to lose. I mean if you plan to test a deck out, why wouldn't you go to a large scale tournament with it, how else would you find out if its going to be successful? And don't say sitting at your kitchen table or computer playtesting is going to prove that because everyone has a different playstyle. 3 drops just aren't good in RUG they go completely against the design of the deck which is tempo, and for tapping out there will be situations where you will with that 3 drop. Vclique is good because you cast it at the end of turn if they haven't played anything that needs to be dealt with, but that I play in the sideboard than maindeck. And stamping out an idea that has no proven large scale success isn't creating a hostile environment or being immature. It's being "realistic". Also with the majority of decks packing hate for TNN in the sideboard. The idea of the deck is putting them on a clock, timewalk them with stifle and counterspells, assemble a low costing threat and apply pressure which TNN isn't going to achieve that of what tarmogoyf can due. Now Abrupt Decay puts a damper on us a little bit but not to the extent where we need to flip the deck upside down and change it completely.

[Contract Killer]

Now while everyone continues to argue about TNN being good/bad/horrible/meh I'm more interested in this new spite of mogis card. When you think about it doesn't it do essentially what we want submerge to do? Sure it's not free, but we could easily get to 5 instants/sorceries to kill a goyf. Kotr is a bit harder, but still doable especially if they drop it early. Tombstalker is just another goyf and again 5 instant/sorcery isn't hard to get to. The only downside would probably be against elves where submerge is superior because of speed. There's also the constant issue with submerge that it's just a "band aid". I'm not sure how often this actually happens, but I feel that decks such as bug and jund have enough cantrips or can grind out the game forever and eventually just find the threat again. Spite is a permanent answer which seems really nice. Sure it doesn't do crap against RIP but since when have goyf/tombstalker/kotr decks run RIP lol? The more and more I think about this card it looks like a dismember without the life loss and scry stapled on hahaha.

[Vain]

The idea of running TNN has been beat to death in the old thread, many people have already tested it and few to little have succeeded in tournaments with the card in RUG. So a few people on the internet tell you they aren't having success with TNN and from that you conclude that it's a bad card in RUG tempo? Besides, most people in the old thread were cutting mongoose for TNN, which is just plain bad since mongoose is generally the best creature in the deck.


I mean if you plan to test a deck out, why wouldn't you go to a large scale tournament with it, how else would you find out if its going to be successful? And don't say sitting at your kitchen table or computer playtesting is going to prove that because everyone has a different playstyle. Big tournaments aren't always just around the corner. Also, you can still draw conclusions about a card being good or not by playing small tournaments with it. It's not as if people suddenly play completely different in a big tournament than in a small tournament.


The idea of the deck is putting them on a clock, timewalk them with stifle and counterspells, assemble a low costing threat and apply pressure which TNN isn't going to achieve that of what tarmogoyf can due. Now Abrupt Decay puts a damper on us a little bit but not to the extent where we need to flip the deck upside down and change it completely. If your oppenent has a removal spell, you end up with a dead goyf. A dead goyf can't apply pressure.


@Contract Killer
I don't think spite of mogis is good enough. If you want removal against goyf/stalker/kotr/batterskull germ, you're probably better off just playing dismember. Spite of mogis also usually can't deal with a first turn DRS/mother of runes/delver, which is a problem.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Now while everyone continues to argue about TNN being good/bad/horrible/meh I'm more interested in this new spite of mogis card. When you think about it doesn't it do essentially what we want submerge to do?
It's different. First of all, we need mana to play it, and red one to be exact. Submerge is playable of Tropical Island, similarly to Dismember which is castable with Wasteland. Moreover, Spite of Mogis is



...not free
...and that may be trouble in some matchups.



We could easily get to 5 instants/sorceries to kill a goyf. Kotr is a bit harder, but still doable especially if they drop it early. Tombstalker is just another goyf and again 5 instant/sorcery isn't hard to get to. The only downside would probably be against elves where submerge is superior because of speed.
First of all, this isn't completely easy. Although KotR.dec won't play RiP (and neither will any deck with Goyf or Stalker, except maybe for some kind of silly WB brew), it's still something we need to count. Esp. big Knight or turn1 DRS might be hard to remove with this card, as for the DRS you need to at least Ponder and BS, while for the KotR we're thinking about any range possible from 4/4 (realistically the lowest p/t and mana conditions when casting KotR against deck with Daze and Bolt) to mid-game topdeck of 12/12. I especially dislike how this removal might be dead against DnT (where Submerge is also dead, of course), but yeah, we got lots of burn and Roughs for that mu.
My main concern about removal is still the same - it needs to hit both turn1 DRS and turn3 Goyf. Submerge does this. Spite of Mogis is conditional. Otoh, we may play it even if their only green is Grove of the Burnwillows.



There's also the constant issue with Submerge that it's just a "band aid". I'm not sure how often this actually happens, but I feel that decks such as bug and jund have enough cantrips or can grind out the game forever and eventually just find the threat again. Spite is a permanent answer which seems really nice. Sure it doesn't do crap against RIP but since when have goyf/tombstalker/kotr decks run RIP lol? The more and more I think about this card it looks like a dismember without the life loss and scry stapled on hahaha.
Yes, I like that it's a permanent solution. Too many games I've lost when I was forced to wait with Submerge until they fetch and they... never fetched. Also, scry might be relevant.

I'm not sure. Testing will tell. I really dislike how it may be very hard to remove that turn1 elf or some big dude. But well, we have enough removal for the mana dork, and Goyfs won't show up before we'll fill our grave. Otoh, I had ppl sb Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction against me, and it kinda sucks if they remove your three Ponders at cost of two life, thus changing your Lava Axe into Lava Dart.

[sawatarix]

You are all right,Tnn hasn't seen yet in any top rug list in major events (so far.!)
But a few of them had 2 copies of tnn in the sideboard to crush fair grindy games,namely jund,bug and death&taxes.
Sometimes goyf got boardet out against white decks to make rest in piece less effective against us.
That's what happened so far.

What my crew and i brewed is a rug which has already boardet out tarmogoyfs (as we all dislike goyf in general since the meta shifted) for tnn.
The deck now doesn't always kill on turn 6 which was common in the 4-goyf lists,the kill is delayed around 2-4 turns.
But the threads stick and don't get plowed,burned or R.I.Ped away.
Sometimes we have to tap out 1 turn for a tnn to win the game after we stifled and snared our opponents plans.

(By the way,my first idea was to run a list with 4 delver 4 nimble mongoose 1 scavenging ooze and 2 green suns zenith)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[ShiftyKapree]

You are all right,Tnn hasn't seen yet in any top rug list in major events (so far.!)
But a few of them had 2 copies of tnn in the sideboard to crush fair grindy games,namely jund,bug and death&taxes.
Sometimes goyf got boardet out against white decks to make rest in piece less effective against us.
That's what happened so far.

What my crew and i brewed is a rug which has already boardet out tarmogoyfs (as we all dislike goyf in general since the meta shifted) for tnn.
The deck now doesn't always kill on turn 6 which was common in the 4-goyf lists,the kill is delayed around 2-4 turns.
But the threads stick and don't get plowed,burned or R.I.Ped away.
Sometimes we have to tap out 1 turn for a tnn to win the game after we stifled and snared our opponents plans.

(By the way,my first idea was to run a list with 4 delver 4 nimble mongoose 1 scavenging ooze and 2 green suns zenith)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I play one Krosan Grip in my sideboard for R.I.P and maindeck 2 spellsnares, I usually bring in against anything with RIP a Vclique, K grip, 1 Spell Pierce depending on the deck to take out it varies

[Akinos]

You are all right,Tnn hasn't seen yet in any top rug list in major events (so far.!)

Wrong.

Look at this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
2 True-Name Nemesis

3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Wasteland
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique

1587 players, this guy finish 11th. Really a great result. Top 8 was not so far...

Source:http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12902&iddeck=94665

A man also win a small tournament (34 players) with exactly the same list in Toulouse (France).

I think it's an interisting path to explore.

[sawatarix]

Call me ignorant but the creature package looks pretty...random for my taste.
But the player must be a good player and would have made 11th at the GP with a more basic rug list i guess.

(2 ooze,taiga and 3 daze? C'mon thats jund with force of will :D )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[carefulmug]

Call me ignorant but the creature package looks pretty...random for my taste.
But the player must be a good player and would have made 11th at the GP with a more basic rug list i guess.

(2 ooze,taiga and 3 daze? C'mon thats jund with force of will :D )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

It does look random, but maybe I can help decipher it...

There's 20 land, featuring a 4th Volcanic and an additional Taiga, lending additional red to power the Lavamancer. The 2 extra land are probably there to help power out higher cmc threats and fuel Scavenging Ooze. Because of the extra two land, the creator of the deck probably decided they didn't need to protect their mana base as much as traditional Canadian, and because the presence of a Taiga makes it harder to be wasted off your non-blue mana sources, they opted out of the 4th Stifle. Additionally, since the goal is to play the higher cmc cards sooner, the 4th Daze was additionally shaved.

The creatures present signify a leap away from GY dependence in a major way; this list is almost trying render RiP illegitimate by removing the GY before the opponent does. It's an interesting strategy.

@ Contract Killer:

I also don't think the new burn spell is good enough. Ghastly Demise doesn't seem to get played anymore in the BUG variants, and that's a card that counts all cards in your GY as opposed to being limited to Instants and Sorceries. And while Ghastly is a fantastic card, Bed Decks is right: we really do want our removal active from t1 and forward, particularly against the decks where it would supposedly shine. Ie, you're boarding in a card against KotR...you may want something that doubles up against a card usually seen alongside it, such as Mother of Runes. Or, Tarmogoyf: DRS is a common sight alongside Tarm right now...and we want him to be DOA also.

If you do test with the Mogli burn, I'd suggest a list packing 4 Gitaxians to help fuel t1 options. Otherwise, because Mogli burn does not have the option to target a player, I do believe Dismember to be our best option.

Also, I remember...maybe a year or two ago, Bryant Cook of TES fame posted in this forum after doing well at a larger tournament. This was during a time of a lot of Tin Fins and Reanimator, and his list was fairly stock with the inclusion of 4 Vapor Snag. While I know we're looking for more permanent options, this might also be an option against Knights and Tarms and such while maintaining t1 efficacy.

[Akinos]

Call me ignorant but the creature package looks pretty...random for my taste.
But the player must be a good player and would have made 11th at the GP with a more basic rug list i guess.

(2 ooze,taiga and 3 daze? C'mon thats jund with force of will :D )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

It's not as random as you think.
Taiga is simply the best land you can fetch in 3rd position because it allows you to activate twice Ooze's capacity or to activate Grim + play an other red spell, while protecting your mana base from a single Wasteland.

I agree than Ooze doesn't aplly the same pressure than Tarmo in early game, but, by removing cards from your opponent GY, it's a better beast against:
- PiF.deck
- Snapcaster.deck
- Loam / PF and all recurrent cards wich transit by the grave
- DRS.deck
- Rea / Dredge
etc...
Otoh, it can continue to apply pressure even if Rest in Peace touch the board. It is also a very good topdeck in late game if you can pump it 3 or 4 times, gain life plus transform it into a more big threat than Tarmo.

Not playing Nimble allows you to play Grim. Grim is a nut in all aggro-controle MU. If the opponent don't kill it, it neutralize DRS / Stoneforge / Delver, it is awesome against Elves and D&T too. It allows you to kill a Goyf if you complete his shot with a Bolt. I agree that Nimble is a solid threat but with all those Nemesis in the format, with all those RiP, it often becomes more weak than before.

Playing 2 TNN + 1 V.Clique allows you to continue to Bolt your opponent each turn even if your opponent has also a TNN. In this place, Nimble does nothing.

Play 20 lands is a good strategy to fight with BUG Delver and UWR Delver. Sometimes, those MU is just about twice Waste your opponent to keep him off playing his stuff, so the more lands you have, the more you can resist to that strategy.
Play 20 lands also improve the Stifle's strategy because sometimes you keep your mana up for Stifling this opponent fetch but because you usually play only 18 lands, your opponnent simply drop more land than you, and your tempo strategy become bad and it return against you.

Sure it is a non-conventionnal RUG but sure you can't reach this place in a GP with a "random" list.

Please, consider it a second time. ;)

ps: I am sorry for my very bad english level.

[ShiftyKapree]

So a few people on the internet tell you they aren't having success with TNN and from that you conclude that it's a bad card in RUG tempo? Besides, most people in the old thread were cutting mongoose for TNN, which is just plain bad since mongoose is generally the best creature in the deck.

Big tournaments aren't always just around the corner. Also, you can still draw conclusions about a card being good or not by playing small tournaments with it. It's not as if people suddenly play completely different in a big tournament than in a small tournament.

If your oppenent has a removal spell, you end up with a dead goyf. A dead goyf can't apply pressure.


You ever hear of feeding removal spells out of an opponent's hand? Same thing with feeding counters out of their hand. Your creatures are going to die to removal and you can only do so much to stop it, playing TNN isn't going to help much game 2 & 3 when they board in hate for it. Also do you not consider the SCG tournaments fairly large than a hometown shop? And no I know from experienced players that they are not having success with TNN in RUG.
I play tournaments on the east coast and not to sound arrogant but there is more than a handful of skillful players here in legacy. Just look at upstate NY where I use to play regularly till Jupiter Games stopped hosting events. Bryant Cook and a handful of others are from there, Idk if you ever heard of Team EPIC that had Adam Barnelo, Bryant Cook and a few other skillful players at the time, but those dude would consistently top 8. I've been playing legacy competitive since my Junior year of high school (I'm 24 now), I've had tournament success in the past with many decks, RUG being one of them and countless bant decks. I know what I'm talking about and I'm not a close minded individual but TNN doesn't belong in the deck. I'd like to see people discuss Eli Kasiss list with young pyromancer, who if you didn't know was the number 1 sealed player in the world for the longest time till DCI changed it to planeswalker points and has top 8'd countless legacy tournaments. Also former co-owner of Jupiter Games. The skill level of players I face every tournament isn't a handful of scrubs every round.

Now back to discussion in the thread. What are everyones thought's on Young Pyromancer in the deck? I know it doesn't have much success yet but people are right tarmogoyf has lost its lust to fair decks now because of power creep, etc. I tested Eli Kassis Young Pyromancer build last Sunday against Team America and DNT which I did win series often with it, you see once YP is removed there is still value on the board of 1/1 elemental's. His sideboard I would change a bit, but the deck seems solid playing against those decks. Would I play it in the next tournament I go to with little test there's a good possibility, I like to take chances with decks, and in life in general. For sideboards with the rise of reanimater and my favorite dredge; do you guys think we should go back to playing Surgical Extraction in the sideboard or still graffdiggers cage?

Rug is a solid deck now some things can be moved around with say stifle, spell pierce, spell snare, forked bolt, thought scour, and git probe. Other than that the basic shell is solid. What makes a good Rug player is the sideboard and how you board for match ups where most players are not skillful at (most of them advocating TNN). With regards of it falling off the radar is because only a handful of skillful players would top 8 with it. It's a cheap deck to make which isn't why I like it but it does bring in a lot of unskillful players being so that it is. Regardless this is my last post about TNN for now unless some miracle happens that you guys advocating are right (which is highly unlikely).

[Contract Killer]

It's different. First of all, we need mana to play it, and red one to be exact. Submerge is playable of Tropical Island, similarly to Dismember which is castable with Wasteland. Moreover, Spite of Mogis is not free ...and that may be trouble in some matchups.

First of all, this isn't completely easy. Although KotR.dec won't play RiP (and neither will any deck with Goyf or Stalker, except maybe for some kind of silly WB brew), it's still something we need to count. Esp. big Knight or turn1 DRS might be hard to remove with this card, as for the DRS you need to at least Ponder and BS, while for the KotR we're thinking about any range possible from 4/4 (realistically the lowest p/t and mana conditions when casting KotR against deck with Daze and Bolt) to mid-game topdeck of 12/12. I especially dislike how this removal might be dead against DnT (where Submerge is also dead, of course), but yeah, we got lots of burn and Roughs for that mu.
My main concern about removal is still the same - it needs to hit both turn1 DRS and turn3 Goyf. Submerge does this. Spite of Mogis is conditional. Otoh, we may play it even if their only green is Grove of the Burnwillows.

Yes, I like that it's a permanent solution. Too many games I've lost when I was forced to wait with Submerge until they fetch and they... never fetched. Also, scry might be relevant.

I'm not sure. Testing will tell. I really dislike how it may be very hard to remove that turn1 elf or some big dude. But well, we have enough removal for the mana dork, and Goyfs won't show up before we'll fill our grave. Otoh, I had ppl sb Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction against me, and it kinda sucks if they remove your three Ponders at cost of two life, thus changing your Lava Axe into Lava Dart.

So the graveyard is definitely an issue, but to be honest I've never had someone side in surgical or nighil spellbomb against me. The first is too much living the dream and either dead or backbreaking but never consistent. The second well most people just have plenty of other ways to deal with goyf abrupt decay, Liliana, chainer's edict etc. As for hitting a turn 1 deathrite does submerge ever do that? It might against elves if they fetch, but we already know submerge is better against that match up. There's also the issue that I've had people just constantly play around submerge I mean if they have a goyf out or kotr or something they usually are doing pretty good and don't need to fetch. Even if it doesn't hit T1 threats or consistently deal with goyfs on turn 3 when does submerge ever do that all the time? It seems like most of the time we're waiting for them to fetch and sometimes it just never happens.
As for KOTR in general (haven't actually done numbers) I think their land count parallels our instant/sorcery count. When you think about it they will drop 1 land per turn only half go towards kotr seeing as they need to be fetch/wasteland. I would think we have similar instant/sorcery patterns of countering/bolting/cantriping once per turn. They do get a bit of a boost if we waste them so there's that to consider. This is still just hypothetical, but I'm curious how it would do in kotr match ups.

[HammafistRoob]

It's a cheap deck to make which isn't why I like it but it does bring in a lot of unskillful players being so that it is.
What? You've lost me here.

Mogis card is bad, don't waste your time guys :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So the graveyard is definitely an issue, but to be honest I've never had someone side in surgical or nighil spellbomb against me. The first is too much living the dream and either dead or backbreaking but never consistent. The second well most people just have plenty of other ways to deal with goyf abrupt decay, Liliana, chainer's edict etc. As for hitting a turn 1 deathrite does submerge ever do that? It might against elves if they fetch, but we already know submerge is better against that match up. There's also the issue that I've had people just constantly play around submerge I mean if they have a goyf out or kotr or something they usually are doing pretty good and don't need to fetch. Even if it doesn't hit T1 threats or consistently deal with goyfs on turn 3 when does submerge ever do that all the time? It seems like most of the time we're waiting for them to fetch and sometimes it just never happens.
As for KOTR in general (haven't actually done numbers) I think their land count parallels our instant/sorcery count. When you think about it they will drop 1 land per turn only half go towards kotr seeing as they need to be fetch/wasteland. I would think we have similar instant/sorcery patterns of countering/bolting/cantriping once per turn. They do get a bit of a boost if we waste them so there's that to consider. This is still just hypothetical, but I'm curious how it would do in kotr match ups.

I had Nihil Spellbomb used against my Mongooses on several accasions. See, often times Goyf isn't affected by it, and bUrg players already got AD for Goyf, but what they fear (and can't touch in any reasonable way) is threshed Mongoose or two in an open red zone. That's when they fire of the spellbomb to send the Mongoose back into Golgari Charm range (or at least make it irrelevant for a few turns during which they take control), and if they hose a random LftL in the process, even better then.
I'm not saying it's a valid approach and maybe the guys should rahter concentrate on Goyf walls or whatever else, but the fact that Spellbomb cantrips and shrinks Mongoose and may affect Goyf and may stop LftLWaste is reason good enough to sb it against RUG.

On removal: those are some good points, sadly it's all too hypothetical, both the Spite of Mogis and Subemrge scenarios. I think that what we want froma Submerge-like card is different than what we want froma damage-based removal.
Damage spells, are mainly meant to remove the turn1 and turn2 dudes (mostly DRS and SFM, but also Delver and Merfolk/Elf lords and/or utility creatures, esp. DnT ones). For it to work, you need a reliable spell, and Spite of Mogis simply isn't reliable. Again DnT it may be nullified by RiP, against DRS it may be nullified by DRS alone, against lords it may not have enough power soon enough, not to mention Folks play(ed) Relic which make the spell even more clunky. It kills big dudes, yes it does, and is good against Tombstalker (which is major pita as it's big and flies) and Goyf (which is very usual wall), and it may hit KotR (depending on how many Wastelands happen). But it is once again unreliable, unless drawn in lategame against the first two dudes (because they - and esp. Stalker - can't grow beyond certain level), while against KotR it's still a lottery, esp. if she already made at least one cycle through the library (sac - find fetch - fetch, or sac - find Waste - waste). You'd be very, very unhappy when you'll be one damage short of dealing with a gamesealing KotR, knowing that a Submerge in resp. to her/fetchland's activation would be a zero-mana Terror.
There are other factors that make the math more complicated, like that Spite is a permanent answer, or it may work without Forest or that Submerge doesn't feed opponent's grave with acreature (important namely for DRS, SCooze and Goyf), or anything else, so right now I simply can't say which spell is better. It's up to us, RUG pilots, to determine this in testing and of course: in tournament play.

[Vain]

Your creatures are going to die to removal and you can only do so much to stop it, playing TNN isn't going to help much game 2 & 3 when they board in hate for it.

I'd like to see people discuss Eli Kasiss list with young pyromancer, who if you didn't know was the number 1 sealed player in the world for the longest time till DCI changed it to planeswalker points and has top 8'd countless legacy tournaments.
I don't care how many planeswalker points someone has. I just looked up the list that you posted a couple of pages back from Eli Kasiss, and it just looks horrible. No stifles, 1x island, 1x temporal mastery, 1x snapcaster mage and 1x spell snare and sideboard 1x hydroblast? Please...
Also, I hope you do realise that young pyromancer dies to everything TNN dies to and much more.


Also do you not consider the SCG tournaments fairly large than a hometown shop? I'm not from the US, so there aren't a lot of large tournaments here.


It's a cheap deck to make which isn't why I like it but it does bring in a lot of unskillful players being so that it is. Since when is rug tempo a cheap deck to make? Also, just because I don't have a lot of posts here doesn't mean I'm a total noob or something.

[carefulmug]

Played in a small tournament last night. Got locked out of really close games by opposing Tarmogoyfs and Abrupt Decays by BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. I know, due to the variables inducing a sort of inconsistency, Divert hasn't caught on very much, but I'm going to return to it as a 2-of in my SB and moving the 2 Spell Snare in my SB to the main.

I usually fair well against Jund, BUG Delver, and Shardless, but last night's experience...having an advantageous game state only to be shut out once my BGx opponent stabilized....was very frustrating, and with BUG Delver so popular, I'm wondering how we//I can make the matchup as consistently positive as possible.

Are there any suggestions for people who've had continuing success against these matchups? I know the running strategy is to RUG them out through Stifles and Wastes and to counter//burn DRS as soon as possible, but in the event that this sequencing of plays is not available, what are successful SB and play strategies?

I think I may go against Kapree's sage advice and start doing more testing with 2 TNN + 2 cantrip in place of 4 Tarmogoyf as the meta becomes more successful at resisting our early game and forcing us into the mid-game.

[poxy14]

1st place this very day with rug on a small tourney..4-0 12man, won me a bloodstained mire 5usd entrance..not bad!

Scanned thru and saw no elves, no reanimators, no dredge..so i tweaked my sb final minutes..went for 3pyroblast, 2submerges (i usually play 3), 2pithing needles, 1grudge, 1destructive revelry, 2surgicals, 1sulfur elemental, 2roughs, 1pierce..

Main is standard with this creature configuration..3goose, 3goyfs, 4delvers,1 tnn and 1 vendilion cliq.

Match 1 (2-1) vs dnt
Lost game 1 via resolved vial with continues drops eot, game 2 where i stifled 2 jitte triggers with him losing his crits to goyfs and delver got me there, game three i just have nuts draw with multiple forked bolts...didnt drew sulfur, but when tnn landed, it made it alot easier for me..

Match2 (2-1) rug mirrorpLost again game one, via double delvers..my goyfs, which are on a lesser count came in early, three of them are boss! game three i was able to control his mana development, and my lone goyf was like a liliana facing goose, after goose, three times coz he's facing lethal.

match 3 (2-1 uwr patriot)
Lost game 1 again, via resolved sfm to batterskull..game 2 i have three delvers and 3dazes, that gave me a fast W, was confident coming in to 3rd game as he mulled to 5, still wasnt a walk in the park..he resolved an tnn down to 6, eot i v.cliqued myself holding an already not useful daze...drawing a forked bolt to seal it..if the cliq,was a goyf..anytime he would be able to come back..so im into the finals..

Match4 (2-1) showntell
4th game i lost game 1 haha, not worried at all haha! game 1 where he went off, i fowed, but he has an,answer..game 2 where multiple delvers made a fast clock, he tried resolving a grid which was met by my lone snare! Game three was tight, i managed to surgicalled a countered show, he drew sneak, i saw emra thru my surgical..i daze, he sac petal..leaving him no mana and passed..i have destructive revelry to destroy it nextturn..a few more turn when my only clock is a tnn, he tried another sneak with no counter backup, it resolved but upon activating it...i stifled, again leaving him with no red coz i was able to cut him off red by destroying his lone volc...i brainstormed on my turn and drew a pithing needle that was met by a handshake..Awesome day indeed! I cut short the report coz im too sleepy, just so excited bout how my tweak went very well this day..the lone tnn and v.cliq gave me game midrange..i was simulating that if its a goose or a goyf i will not be in this position..when i was unable to cast em yet, they are very fow friendly on situations i really need to counter...

Im very happy with my latest list, it offers more versatility rather than me just seating with a goyf or goose that offers nothing on certain situations like rip, bigger blockers, pro green etc.. my other inclusions in the deck are 2pierce, 1snare, 1zzet charm, 2forkeds...everythin is standard.

Sorry if there are typo errors, will edit it tomorrow once wide awake haha!
Go Rug!

[KobeBryan]

Played in a small tournament last night. Got locked out of really close games by opposing Tarmogoyfs and Abrupt Decays by BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. I know, due to the variables inducing a sort of inconsistency, Divert hasn't caught on very much, but I'm going to return to it as a 2-of in my SB and moving the 2 Spell Snare in my SB to the main.

I usually fair well against Jund, BUG Delver, and Shardless, but last night's experience...having an advantageous game state only to be shut out once my BGx opponent stabilized....was very frustrating, and with BUG Delver so popular, I'm wondering how we//I can make the matchup as consistently positive as possible.

Are there any suggestions for people who've had continuing success against these matchups? I know the running strategy is to RUG them out through Stifles and Wastes and to counter//burn DRS as soon as possible, but in the event that this sequencing of plays is not available, what are successful SB and play strategies?

I think I may go against Kapree's sage advice and start doing more testing with 2 TNN + 2 cantrip in place of 4 Tarmogoyf as the meta becomes more successful at resisting our early game and forcing us into the mid-game.

I don't think you should do the TNN route because this deck already has problems getting to 2 mana. The way this deck is constructed, getting to 3 mana is not ideal.

I have been doing the 8 bolt plan and it has been doing wonders for me, helps with the cheapy creatures people throw on board and then i get to bolt in the face in the event of a race

[Purgatory]

Poxy is on a roll, congrats!

[carefulmug]

I don't think you should do the TNN route because this deck already has problems getting to 2 mana. The way this deck is constructed, getting to 3 mana is not ideal.

I have been doing the 8 bolt plan and it has been doing wonders for me, helps with the cheapy creatures people throw on board and then i get to bolt in the face in the event of a race

Yeah, I've long been committed to keeping the average cmc as low as possible, typically considering Tarm the weakest creature due to his "high" mana cost. But the deck can absolutely reach 3, even 4 mana if need be were we playing more cantrips, like maximizing the number of Gitaxian Probes and/or utilizing Preordains.

But, I admit, it's a long shot.

I'm glad to hear the 8 bolt plan continues to impress people. Perhaps I should try my own suggestion at this point.

And good going, Poxy! What are you, 8-0 over the past 2 weeks?

[KobeBryan]

Yeah, I've long been committed to keeping the average cmc as low as possible, typically considering Tarm the weakest creature due to his "high" mana cost. But the deck can absolutely reach 3, even 4 mana if need be were we playing more cantrips, like maximizing the number of Gitaxian Probes and/or utilizing Preordains.

But, I admit, it's a long shot.

I'm glad to hear the 8 bolt plan continues to impress people. Perhaps I should try my own suggestion at this point.

And good going, Poxy! What are you, 8-0 over the past 2 weeks?

8 bolt plan has been exceptional for me. with the 2 spell pierces from the extra 2 slots.

[poxy14]

[QUOTE=carefulmug;805438
And good going, Poxy! What are you, 8-0 over the past 2 weeks?[/QUOTE]


Thanks man, last sunday i top'ed 8 on a bigger tourney (4-1-1) but lost the quarters vs esperstoneblade, few days after i went home to bag 1st place..thanks too @purgatory..i do hope this stays always haha.this win is for us!

Alongside with me the last tourneys is my teammate tommie, he plays the gitaxian built, we been exchanging infos on how these rugs perform..and so far the 7burn built ive been using has been successful..he top16ed too last sunday, it really depends on ur playstyle, ive tested probes too and they were awesome on the opening hand, but with the rise of annoying crits like drs, white armies, random guys etc..im more confident with more removals, rather than repeated draws..sometimes i would probe just to draw another cantrip...im conditioning myself just to make more value of my 8, and i still have another awesome swiss knife via izzet charm..7th burn, third pierce, and can do wonders when im flooded with lands, as long as i play conservatively, i can flush out excess for fresh new draws..the sb really matters, and that what ive been tweaking evrytime..scouting helps alot on formulating this. I dont think well have probs getting to three manas, they should have a problem getting there battling us..and weve boarded in krosans, sulfurs, vortex..so three shouldnt be an issue, uwr patriot has left the stifle plan, stifles not a staple in bug builts..so im confident we can..with the variations i currently added, i think i have more game midgame rather than the stocklist..in which way im in trouble, i can throw any one of them to fow.

i can also see me playing the 8burn built, itll be fast and can put tnn decks on the edge if itll start on a good lead, i just dont have my chain lightnings with me yet, but i surely like that config.and yes i can put back the stock crit config, if im playing this.

May 4 will be the next major tourney here, i would carry that list with me, 3-3-3-1-1 split on the crits. Hope we do well again..results to follow soon.thanks guys! Go rug!

[Myelectronicdays]

Anyone mind posting the 8 bolt list? Is it just replacing 2 snares with chain lightnings?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Contract Killer]

Anyone mind posting the 8 bolt list? Is it just replacing 2 snares with chain lightnings?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

you just take the core 54 cards and then with the six flex put in 4 chain lightnings and the other two are up to you. I would recommend though using two spell pierces though just because it's the most versatile between that and snare. I'm pretty sure we don't want any gitaxian probes in the last two spots since we're going down on more reactive cards. As for the sideboard you should be running 2 prices as well since it goes great with the plan and is a work-a-round TNN.

[carefulmug]

@ Myelectronicdays

8-Bolt Canadian Thresh

4 delver
4 mongoose
4 tarmogoyf

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 daze
4 force of will
2 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt

4 chain lightning
4 ponder

8 fetch
6 dual
4 wasteland

---

When I first suggested the list in the old thread I listed a 3/3 split on FoW and Spell Pierce, which drew a lot of criticism. Because of how aggressively we play our blue spells, I was not confident there was enough blue with 4 more non-blue cards in the deck to fuel the full set of Force, and suggested moving it to the SB. Since, a lot of people have tested it and it seems the blue count is a non-issue, so the above list is pretty much the go-to for the 8 bolt setup.

I briefly tested the list with 4 fire//ice as opposed to the 4 chain lightning since the ability to tap germ tokens and the like while cantripping, and all the while keeping a high blue count, and had varied success (top4 out of 30 one week, 2-3 the next). Ultimately, chain lightning is likely the most correct choice since the strategy behind the build is to be faster.

The idea behind the 8 bolt list is to have a better game against Elves and DnT through more removal, and to be able to race or seal out games against BUG delver and UWR delver before they stabilize. It doesn't do much to help our game against Miracles, though, which is something that can be remedied with the right SB.

Additionally, and this is only a quirk, but I was also drawn to an 8 bolt plan in the first place because it gave the deck a sort of aesthetic balance between its non-blue colors.

I really like Contract Killer's (and whoever else might be responsible) idea of PoP out of the board and agree it should be a 2-of in the side.

An argument can be made for the 2 spell pierce being 2 Gitaxian Probe, since it speeds up mongoose, cantrips, and provides knowledge as to how aggressive we can be.

[Contract Killer]

PoP wasn't my idea originally in fact I thought it was absurd mainly from my burn experience learning to fear that card like the devil himself. After trying it out against BUG though and dealing a lethal 8dmg in one blow I was sold. The bolts are actually kind of good against miracles from my experience. It helps us reach threshold faster with goose or do something like bolt bolt swing 3 with goose pass and really put them under the gun. We also get more outs to if they entreat (assuming it's not more than two which is really all they need) since we can usually swing bolt and kill the angel.

Just finished a 48 person (rough estimate) tournament and went 3/2 drop. I'll do a quick report and an actual one in a day or so.
Game 1 Infect 2/0
Game 2 Miracles 2/1
Game 3 Tin Fins 2/1
and this is where it goes down hill
Game 4 Manaless Dredge 0/2
Game 5 Shardless Bug 0/2
My shardless bug match up I may have made a few play mistakes in which may or may not have cost me the game. I definitely got two of my worst match ups in the last two rounds I just needed one more win then I could probably make top 8 without question. With how many results manaless dredge has been putting up lately I'm thinking about going to three grave hate in the sb.

@Exuberance How did 2 cage 2 surgical work for you at Atlanta? Was surgical worth it for other match ups like forced shuffle against miracles, breaking P-Fire chain, hitting key lynch pins in lands etc or was it just mainly diversified grave hate?

[Contract Killer]

Do you guys think Winter Orb would be good sideboard material right now? Most of the meta is becoming more midrange and mana hungry so it seems like a great way to punish them for that. Just a thought looking through some old cards that were played in rug. What comes around goes around right?

[Akinos]

Do you guys think Winter Orb would be good sideboard material right now? Most of the meta is becoming more midrange and mana hungry so it seems like a great way to punish them for that. Just a thought looking through some old cards that were played in rug. What comes around goes around right?

Winter Orb is a great card in BUG Delver because Deathrite Shaman + 1 land allows you to play all your deck.

But without DRS, it doesn't make me dream...

[Myelectronicdays]

carefulmug, thanks for the nice writeup on that! appreciate the time it took!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

1st place this very day with rug on a small tourney..4-0 12man, won me a bloodstained mire 5usd entrance..not bad!
...
I cut short the report coz im too sleepy, just so excited bout how my tweak went very well this day..the lone tnn and v.cliq gave me game midrange..i was simulating that if its a goose or a goyf i will not be in this position..when i was unable to cast em yet, they are very fow friendly on situations i really need to counter...
...
Go Rug!
Congratulations! This is what we need to read more often! I'm happy Can Thresh won again. Thanks for the report, too!




I briefly tested the list with 4 fire//ice as opposed to the 4 chain lightning since the ability to tap germ tokens and the like while cantripping, and all the while keeping a high blue count, and had varied success (top4 out of 30 one week, 2-3 the next). Ultimately, chain lightning is likely the most correct choice since the strategy behind the build is to be faster.
...
Additionally, and this is only a quirk, but I was also drawn to an 8 bolt plan in the first place because it gave the deck a sort of aesthetic balance between its non-blue colors.
Yep, I believe CL is better than F/I for the eight burn build, becasue what you lose in flexibility, you gain in speed and brutal power.
Btw, I support your "aesthetic matters" argument!


@ Contract killer: Sorry to read about your 3:2 drop exprience. On Winter Orb - I know about the card, and I tinker with the idea for months, but there are several things I dislike about it, mainly that it's sometimes withut any effect, that it's bad against (mana)creatures-heavy decks and that it may work like a bad Trinisphere (the one you play in XYZ Stompy and then they Waste your only land, forcing you to do nothing for next turns), when you play it, they kill your due in resp. and then you slooowly cantrip for another one, while they live on topdecked DRS.

[carefulmug]

Thanks, guys.

On Winter Orb:

If we check for all decks playing it in their SB, a vast majority, as Akinos suggests, show up as BUG Delver decks, but there are some Canadian lists that ran it. Here's a link to one:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12081&iddeck=88541

OG Canadian Thresh....or, rather, Miracle Gro used to run 4 Winter Orb in either the SB or MB, I can't quite remember. We must remember, though, that they were playing a full set of Gush at this point, allowing for virtually no mana problems by untapping a land per turn + a consistent land drop per turn.

Personally, I tried...either 2 or 3 Winter Orb sometime last summer. It came in against Miracles and Esper, and can have a major impact on the game.

I also had a similar experience to Bed Decks. In the Esper matchup, I did find myself down a threat at one point and desperately, slowly, cantripping through my own Winter Orb while the Esper opponent patiently waited for a sequence of plays something like: 2 mana open, play SFM, 2 mana open, activate, Batterskull.

Nonetheless, I think the card is great for the right meta and it does warrant individual testing. If it were to go in any of the tempo decks, I think burg tempo would utilize it best due to its access to DRS + its universally low cmc akin to Canadian.

[Purgatory]

I think WOrb might be good in certain meta games. If the room is full of Miracles, I'd side 2 or so, they make Daze really unfair, even against control, but especially against stuff like Jund.

[Contract Killer]

It's just a thought I've been digging through cards on gatherer trying to find another way to attack an opponent's mana. Nothing's really turned up that's worth testing except maybe winter orb. Trying to find something new to impact the more mana hungry format.

[ShiftyKapree]

I too have been given Winter Orb some thought, I haven't tested it but I would most likely play one of, if Miracles starts to become a huge increase. here's my current list of Rug
4 Delver
4 goose
4 Goyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Fow
4 daze
4 Stifle
2 spell pierce
2 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
2 forked bolt
4 misty rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland's
3 trops
3 volcs

SB:
1 V Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Graffdiggers cage
1 Divert
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 rough/tumble
1 Spell Pierce
3 submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Reverly

The maindeck I would take to a tournament today, the sideboard Idk if I want to play K-grip instead of Destructive Reverly. Also I cut flusterstorm from the board to play Divert since Jund and Bug are in the top tier these days. which I will most likely keep for the time being. I play 2 forked bolts instead of the usual Git Probes bc of DRS not letting us reach threshold for goose is a problem we face. I also want to play 2 Surgical extraction to the sideboard because it can give us an autowin in the mirror match and reanimater and dredge have been on the rise. If you have questions on how to board this list in match-ups don't be shy to inbox me.

[poxy14]

@Beddecks: thanks man! good thing i listened to you about the inclusion of snare, that 1 copy im using are doing wonders, especially the pithing needle, it's been awesome!

@shiftykapree: from previous games i felt that krosan grips are slow, it should be an auto sb if there's lots of miracles... u might wanna try these.. 2 grudges, artifact mutation, and what won me the finals the other day with destructive revelry is GOOD! though i would not carry with me an sb list without a least any enchantment hate..
when abrupt decay.dec was rampant some months back i used two DIVERTS in the sb, was never happy with it, coz not only i wasnt able to draw them consistently, when i have them, there are times i already lost my crit, or they built enough mana to even pay for it, so..it was just so conditional.

i would however suggest to try pithing needle.. it stops a lot of annoying resolved problems vs us.. (vials, drs, sfm, moms, sneaks, symbiotes, etc...) when i was able to resolve one vs SnT the other day, it was a backbreaker! surgicals too are very good vs combos while graf stops elves too, so it depends on ur meta, but both are good stuff..if i were to make my GY hate on three slots it would be 2 surgicals, 1 graf...so many applications.

i havent tested yet Worb, but vs drs, vial.decs, manadorks, lots of this decks in the current meta, where we shouldnt be using this artifact...including this in our 15, would just make it tight, i would include something else..

[carefulmug]

@ poxy

Thank you for reminding me of Pithing Needle. Bed Decks had been suggesting it for a while and I was skeptical at first, but it really is exactly what we want in so many ways. It neutralizes everything you suggested, and, sometimes, especially if we're playing with gitaxian probes, it can allow for us to live that old dream and Needle their relevant fetchland.

[poxy14]

@carefulmug...it sure does work wonders, 3 weeks ago i piloted a different deck (ug infect), for a second place finish..that deck is equipped with full set of probes, and set needles in the sb..it stole lots of games just by probing and needling fetches! ..so if u guys are running the probe list, needle should be an inclusion in the sbs..it has alot of applications in today's meta.

[ShiftyKapree]

@Beddecks: thanks man! good thing i listened to you about the inclusion of snare, that 1 copy im using are doing wonders, especially the pithing needle, it's been awesome!

@shiftykapree: from previous games i felt that krosan grips are slow, it should be an auto sb if there's lots of miracles... u might wanna try these.. 2 grudges, artifact mutation, and what won me the finals the other day with destructive revelry is GOOD! though i would not carry with me an sb list without a least any enchantment hate..
when abrupt decay.dec was rampant some months back i used two DIVERTS in the sb, was never happy with it, coz not only i wasnt able to draw them consistently, when i have them, there are times i already lost my crit, or they built enough mana to even pay for it, so..it was just so conditional.

i would however suggest to try pithing needle.. it stops a lot of annoying resolved problems vs us.. (vials, drs, sfm, moms, sneaks, symbiotes, etc...) when i was able to resolve one vs SnT the other day, it was a backbreaker! surgicals too are very good vs combos while graf stops elves too, so it depends on ur meta, but both are good stuff..if i were to make my GY hate on three slots it would be 2 surgicals, 1 graf...so many applications.

i havent tested yet Worb, but vs drs, vial.decs, manadorks, lots of this decks in the current meta, where we shouldnt be using this artifact...including this in our 15, would just make it tight, i would include something else..
How many needles do you board, and I rarely have a problem with a 1 of in my sideboard I usually see it. I thought about needle right now in the current meta it seems good.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Miracle Gro used to run 4 Winter Orb in either the SB or MB, I can't quite remember. We must remember, though, that they were playing a full set of Gush at this point, allowing for virtually no mana problems by untapping a land per turn + a consistent land drop per turn... It's just a thought I've been digging through cards on gatherer trying to find another way to attack an opponent's mana. Nothing's really turned up that's worth testing except maybe winter orb. Trying to find something new to impact the more mana hungry format... I think WOrb might be good in certain meta games. If the room is full of Miracles, I'd side 2 or so, they make Daze really unfair, even against control, but especially against stuff like Jund. It's just a thought I've been digging through cards on gatherer trying to find another way to attack an opponent's mana. Nothing's really turned up that's worth testing except maybe winter orb. Trying to find something new to impact the more mana hungry format.
Is Boom//Bust any good? I know that it's not aSinkhole, but you can't get any closer in UGR. Or maybe Mana Web? IDK...



@Beddecks: thanks man! good thing i listened to you about the inclusion of snare, that 1 copy im using are doing wonders, especially the pithing needle, it's been awesome!
Once my Volcanics get back to me, I'll try a 7Burn list with one Snare (there are Goyfs THAT BIG in our lgs, also stops Hymn/IT/CB). I'm not sure if I'll try CL or FB, both have their respective strength.



i would however suggest to try pithing needle.. it stops a lot of annoying resolved problems vs us... Thank you for reminding me of Pithing Needle. Bed Decks had been suggesting it for a while and I was skeptical at first, but it really is exactly what we want in so many ways. How many needles do you board, and I rarely have a problem with a 1 of in my sideboard I usually see it. I thought about needle right now in the current meta it seems good.
What I like about Needle is that it stops any munber of annoying permanents, and it stops them forever, until they Decay it (which conveniently takes a bit of pressure from Goyfs). I remeber games where it held triple DRS or where the opponent was stuck with a Lili in play and another in hand. It helps to stop the initial attack of our manabase via Port, it improves Rough as it invalidates MoR, Råde or Symbiote, it cripples Miracles (Top, EE, Jace; although the last one they may sb out). I play two, and I may consider dropping down to one in certain meta (Storm heavy?) but I wouldn't play completely without it. Too good, if you ask me. :)

[carefulmug]

Is Boom//Bust any good? I know that it's not aSinkhole, but you can't get any closer in UGR. Or maybe Mana Web? IDK...


Raze is probably better than Boom//Bust here.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Raze is probably better than Boom//Bust here.
I don't think so. With Boom you may target your Waste or fetch and save a land for the cost of one mana. Corner case: you may even play Daze returning the targeted dual.
Raze, unlike Boom, makes you lose land no matter what. Which is esp. hurtful if they counter the spell.
We play six real lands. I guess we can't lose them at will. Otoh, there are times when we don't know what to do with lands, but still, I don't like the spell. I'd say there's a reason why it isn't played.

Seems like traditional LD is unusable in Legacy. You're paying far too much for very little profit. And it doesn't really matter if we speak of unconditional three-mana LD, or cheaper, yet conditional/symetric one. Sinkhole is likely the only playable of all these cards.

If I'd go for the LD heavy builds, I'd move it to the sideboard and make a small LD theme (that doesn't work under RiP, DRS and can't really affect basics-heavy decks) with a set of some (five?) cards, three of them being Ghost Quarter, the other two being LftL.

In other news, there should be a link to this post by MGB (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27889-Deck-Taxonomy&p=805970&viewfull=1#post805970) somewhere in the primer.

[poxy14]

How many needles do you board, and I rarely have a problem with a 1 of in my sideboard I usually see it. I thought about needle right now in the current meta it seems good.

it really depends, but i always carry 1...
if i dont see much green around, i cut a submerge and include the second
or cut a 2nd GYhate for the other needle..i love this card! serves as another artifact hate with lots of versatility..
functions as another creature removal as it blanks annoying abilities from opp. crits..
on my next tourney, i should already found a space coz i want to have 2 in my 15.
opponents will have a hard time dealing with it too, coz they wont board in artifact hate vs us...

and if ur playing this (needle), always try to monitor enemy fetches..
(my fetch config. = 4 wooded, 1 delta, 1 misty, 1 flooded, 1 tarn (8)
several times i beat mirror and bug by naming misty rainforest (i can confidently do it, coz im just playing 1 copy of it)
i usually name scalding tarn too (vs snt) and flooded strands for control decks...so we can have more targets for our ALLSTAR stifles : )

[carefulmug]

I don't think so. With Boom you may target your Waste or fetch and save a land for the cost of one mana. Corner case: you may even play Daze returning the targeted dual.
Raze, unlike Boom, makes you lose land no matter what. Which is esp. hurtful if they counter the spell.
We play six real lands. I guess we can't lose them at will. Otoh, there are times when we don't know what to do with lands, but still, I don't like the spell. I'd say there's a reason why it isn't played.

Seems like traditional LD is unusable in Legacy. You're paying far too much for very little profit. And it doesn't really matter if we speak of unconditional three-mana LD, or cheaper, yet conditional/symetric one. Sinkhole is likely the only playable of all these cards.

If I'd go for the LD heavy builds, I'd move it to the sideboard and make a small LD theme (that doesn't work under RiP, DRS and can't really affect basics-heavy decks) with a set of some (five?) cards, three of them being Ghost Quarter, the other two being LftL.

In other news, there should be a link to this post by MGB (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27889-Deck-Taxonomy&p=805970&viewfull=1#post805970) somewhere in the primer.

I agree with a lot of your points, and admit Raze is a steep card, but it's cheap and fuels our little Mongoose friend. Also, while Raze's additional casting cost is risky, I believe if we're careful we don't need to be too scared of losing CA on a Raze being countered.

I say this because of the way Crop Rotation is used in the format. Between BGx Dark Depths, Lands, Elves, and 12 post, some people are Crop Rotating to a lot of profit right now despite the identical additional casting cost. Perhaps this is because Crop Rotation is played in a lot of decks with a certain critical mass of other "must counter" spells, enabling for the card to sneak under the radar, but, nonetheless, it has demonstrated success as a 1 to 4-of in certain archetypes.

Thank you for mentioning LftL. It is the most proven method of focusing on land destruction, and probably the best option for the conservative player. Giving it some consideration, I actually think LftL + Raze (over Ghost Quarter) out of the board might be kind of good if people are looking to abuse the LD angle.

Also, you're right. Cheers to MGB. That's an excellent post.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Crop Rotation, contrary to Raze, helps with a primary tactic of the decks that use it, find the necessary land and ramp into the big spells. Moreover it's often used on a land that is "already on its way to graveyard" as they simpy sac the one you've trageted with Waste, so FoW or not, they're losing what hey already wrote off. Raze is different, reversed, and moreover, we play very few real lands. Maybe it has a potential with LftL, but even then I'd rather play Ghost Quarter, as it does basically the same, is much harder to counter and pays for Goyf or Daze. Yep, they may find the basics, but I guess you'll use it against utility/ramp lands or in matchups where you plan to see very few basics. For all that matters, it's Strip Mine against Mirror. (Except that I'm not sure if you want it in the mirror match.)

[carefulmug]

@ BDP:

A quick few responses to your last post, and then I won't defend Raze any further.

Briefly: I do think Raze would help our primary gameplan in the way you suggest Crop Rotation does help decks that play it since our gameplan is to limit our opponent's resources. Losing a land for us...a deck that subsists on 1 cmc cards...typically hurts less than the opponent losing a land. Further, only having the 6 lands does not mean we must exclusively sacrifice our dual lands to Raze. Other than this, you make great points, but I still think, for the deck, Raze is slightly better than Boom//Bust strictly due to its mana cost.

Nonetheless, I won't take it any further because I don't think either of them have a role in the deck's SB. If Contract Killer wants additional ways to mess with an opponent's mana hungry gameplan, he//she should be testing those Winter Orbs or just put a LftL in his//her board instead.

If anybody does test Boom//Bust to decent results, I'm open to the inclusion. The Wasteland and Fetchland activations in response to playing Boom//Bust do sound pretty awesome.

Also, as I'm sure you know, Ghost Quarter is a functional strip mine against BUG Delver, UWR Delver, TES, and a number of other decks in addition to the aforementioned mirror. So maybe there is some merit there.

[cheerios]

The increase in Stoneforge decks (with 3 RIP sb) has forced me to stop playing LFTLs recently. It's only effective against BUG and Jund which are both winnable without the Loams. I might give Winter Orb a try. Will let you know the results.

Anyway, I have been getting some hard time beating esper-blade/deathblade. Discard plus sweepers, plus TNN is difficult to beat. Any advise on this particular matchup?

Cheers

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, I think that of all the decks possible (maybe except for some savage mono-R LD), RUG is the one that may use Raze the most. Still, the fact that Raze is a dangerous and low impact card, moreover one that is quite dangerous to cast, makes it not good enough for Thresh that seeks only the very best cards available. Same goes for Boom/Bust, while there are bit more different reasons whythe card is not good enough, one of them being the manacost. We want better cards for :1::r:
I think that there are two approaches: Winter Orb, as high-impact, yet quite dangerous (because symmetrical card) that's strong against ANY mana-hungry deck, basic lands or not. Then there's LftL (and possible Ghost Quarters) plan that's far less dangerous, helps to keep our own manabase intact and is more resilient to usual hate, except for the RiP-like effects (that unfortunately are already quite solid against us). Sadly, this is pretty weak against decks with basic lands, and it eats at least five sb slots, while WOrb might work even as a singleton, a pair of at the most.



The increase in Stoneforge decks (with 3 RIP sb) has forced me to stop playing LFTLs recently. It's only effective against BUG and Jund which are both winnable without the Loams. I might give Winter Orb a try. Will let you know the results.

Anyway, I have been getting some hard time beating esper-blade/deathblade. Discard plus sweepers, plus TNN is difficult to beat. Any advise on this particular matchup?

Cheers
Thanks for the will to test the Orb, I'm interested how it will work.
I'm not the best advisor on XY-Blade decks, mainly becasue I play not really often against them, moreover they tend to be too difficult for my liking. But if I may offer some ideas...
What is the most annoying is their discard (information, pin-point disruption, etc.). Speaking of DRS, they play a bit more disruption than several other DRS decks (they got both counterspells and discard), but I still think that the shaman won't survive against deck with eight burn. Instead of grinding the game (they are better equipped to win this) we should concentrate on attacking their manabase (start with DRS, obv.), as once their deck crumbles under the weight of its own color requirements, we might win... but fail to accomplish this and they'll easily overwhelm us. This is one of the matchups where removal (and also: artifact removal) should be useful, becasue we're able to answer ANY of their creatures with a sole Bolt (except for Goyfs in green splash builds, but those are even more prone to colorscrew), while they can't touch our main wincon - mongoose. As long as you can keep their half of the table empty, a mere 1/1 will do the job. Any specialized card (like Sulfur Elemental... although they may sb out Souls once they take RiP* in) will help of course, but mostly I'd go with a mix of:
- additional removal for their x/2 creature base.
- artifact removal for their equipments... and as this is a deck that plays both BSK and RiP, it seems that Artifact Mutation is much better than Grudge
- three Blasts for the TNN
- some way to protect our hand from discard (Flusterstorms?)
- and maybe Price of Progress to go over the top in dmg dealing, esp. if we fail in our most important aspect...
- ...which is assault of their mana, esp. DRS

*) If they play RiP. I'm not sure about it, some Deathblade decks play only three elves to not completely rely on the elf, and to have access to RiP. I think it's some kind of meta call (lots of grave decks, Goyfs and Storm?) and I don't believe it's very usual, but if there's a Plains, then there's always the possibility of RiP.

[Contract Killer]

I don't think so. With Boom you may target your Waste or fetch and save a land for the cost of one mana. Corner case: you may even play Daze returning the targeted dual.
Raze, unlike Boom, makes you lose land no matter what. Which is esp. hurtful if they counter the spell.
We play six real lands. I guess we can't lose them at will. Otoh, there are times when we don't know what to do with lands, but still, I don't like the spell. I'd say there's a reason why it isn't played.

Seems like traditional LD is unusable in Legacy. You're paying far too much for very little profit. And it doesn't really matter if we speak of unconditional three-mana LD, or cheaper, yet conditional/symetric one. Sinkhole is likely the only playable of all these cards.

If I'd go for the LD heavy builds, I'd move it to the sideboard and make a small LD theme (that doesn't work under RiP, DRS and can't really affect basics-heavy decks) with a set of some (five?) cards, three of them being Ghost Quarter, the other two being LftL.

In other news, there should be a link to this post by MGB (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27889-Deck-Taxonomy&p=805970&viewfull=1#post805970) somewhere in the primer.

Boom//Bust is interesting, but it seems weird playing in the sideboard where if you draw it mid to late game it does nothing. No matter what state of the game wasteland/stifle always have valid targets in one way or another. Raze seems good at face value but if you sac another land in addition to the one you're playing it with (tap volcanic sac fetch: cast Raze) then it may as well be two mana like boom, but worse because of the additional cost. If we play Raze as volcanic sac volcanic then it gains a lot of tempo by affecting their mana and only marginally affecting us at a cmc of 1. Regardless I do agree that it's not where the deck wants to be especially after reading that post you suggested. It helped me understand a lot of aspects of Rug delver as a tempo (Aggro-Control) deck that I knew were there, but that I didn't have a name for if that makes sense.
I'm not a huge fan of the LD sideboard seeing as it takes up too much space for too little impact in terms of relevance across the board and overall versatility.


@ BDP:

A quick few responses to your last post, and then I won't defend Raze any further.

Briefly: I do think Raze would help our primary gameplan in the way you suggest Crop Rotation does help decks that play it since our gameplan is to limit our opponent's resources. Losing a land for us...a deck that subsists on 1 cmc cards...typically hurts less than the opponent losing a land. Further, only having the 6 lands does not mean we must exclusively sacrifice our dual lands to Raze. Other than this, you make great points, but I still think, for the deck, Raze is slightly better than Boom//Bust strictly due to its mana cost.

Nonetheless, I won't take it any further because I don't think either of them have a role in the deck's SB. If Contract Killer wants additional ways to mess with an opponent's mana hungry gameplan, he//she should be testing those Winter Orbs or just put a LftL in his//her board instead.

If anybody does test Boom//Bust to decent results, I'm open to the inclusion. The Wasteland and Fetchland activations in response to playing Boom//Bust do sound pretty awesome.

Also, as I'm sure you know, Ghost Quarter is a functional strip mine against BUG Delver, UWR Delver, TES, and a number of other decks in addition to the aforementioned mirror. So maybe there is some merit there.

First of all I'm a he lol secondly LftL from my experience has just been getting too slow lately. Where it is good against UWR Delver, Esper Stoneblade, BUG etc they either have RIP, Deathrite or both to disrupt the plan and it's just too slow unless you already have 3 wastes and you only cast it once every like 4 turns. In which case if you have 3 wastes you're already probably winning and it's just a win more card hahaha.


The increase in Stoneforge decks (with 3 RIP sb) has forced me to stop playing LFTLs recently. It's only effective against BUG and Jund which are both winnable without the Loams. I might give Winter Orb a try. Will let you know the results.

Anyway, I have been getting some hard time beating esper-blade/deathblade. Discard plus sweepers, plus TNN is difficult to beat. Any advise on this particular matchup?

Cheers

For Esper my best success has been with early mana denial. I know you're going to say "that's the usual stifle, waste, bash with delver god hand" and well yes, but it's the only way that the match up becomes easy. You can't let esper stoneblade get past 2 mana. After that they get access to Liliana, Jace, hard casting batterskull, snapcaster + ___ = value, etc. The deck has too much card advantage to go unchecked on mana and get to where they shine in the mid to late game portion. Aside from that play threats conservatively trying to play around Liliana with stifle/ spell pierce if available. If they play stoneforge and they fetch batterskull great stifle germ token it's like timewalk x 2 for us. Now if stoneforge gets jitte ok stifle the trigger/equip on it depending on the creature they equip too since again it acts like timewalk x 2 as well. The other thing that I've found that helps is artifact mutation can be very back breaking against them late game. The ability to drop 5 power on board instant speed and deal with batterskull can really tip the scales in your favor especially if they're leaning on the life gain to dig them out of a hole.

All this talk of pithing needle makes me want to try a more control like build with 3 probes main deck, 1 other removal, 2 snare/pierce and then like 2 needles in the side. The ability to cripple the opponent's threats from multiple angels with stifle, bolt, counterspells etc and needle a catch all seems really appealing and strong for that type of build where you have all the information off of probe.

Now as for the tournament I played in this last Saturday it was a 6 round 58 people with duals for prizes.
Main Deck:
54 core rug
4 chain lightning
2 spell pierce

Sideboard
2x pyroblast
1x reb
3x submerge
2x Price of progress
2x rough
1x artifact mutation
1x Krosan grip
1x flusterstorm
1x vendilion clique
1x grafdigger's cage

Round 1 infect 2/0
My opponent was a local from the store I go to, but I was completely unaware he was on infect. Game 1 was pretty good I was on the play had a delver and goyf that made quick work of him after I bolted his one creatue and wasted a land. This left him stranded with an unplayable blighted agent in hand and he couldn't deal with my two turn clock. Game 2 I took a mull to six with double submerge double delver bolt volcanic. I wasn't sure if he had wasteland, but hedged against it because the hand was just too good too pass up and 5 didn't sound terribly good either. I fought over an early glistener elf with both submerges in response to a 2nd turn fetch after my first one got dazed the second one made it. After that two delvers were just too fast for him and got me there.
Round 2 Miracles 2/1
Another local and I knew what he was on since after my first game I had about half an hour to scout around and see what people were playing. Game one was a little silly I got him down to 13 or so with a giant 5/6 goyf then he entreated for two. Since he was in top deck I decided to just force him to have it after brainstorming knowing I had another bolt on top in addition to the one in hand I played out delver, delver, goose pass. He passed back I swung across for 14 which the delvers got eaten by angels goose was blocked by snap and goyf bashed his face in. The two angels then died to bolts and that was that. Game 2 I kept a really control like hand. It was going fine until I punted when he cast counterbalance since I only noticed the untapped island and not the fetch and tried to spell pierce when I could have REB. Game 3 was a cake walk after he took a mull to 6 and I forced his turn 1 top. He kept a single island hand and I had a delver turn delver which made for a fast game.
Round 3 Tin Fins 2/1
I didn't see what my opponent was on and after a mull to six I settled on a reasonable goose, daze, land, disruption type hand that seemed fine. Unfortunately it wasn't able to beat T1 probe, brainstorm, petal -> drak ritual, entomb, shallow grave griselbrand draw 14 rinse repeat with emrakul swing for 22 :cry: lols. Game 2 I played the early turns conservatively holding up stifle and using two wastelands while forcing a total of 2 show in tells. Eventually I got a goyf out which got abrupt decayed... and then I got another one out... which also got abrupt decayed finally a third goyf got me there hahaha and proceeded to smash face and win. Game 3 was similar to game 2 I got a goyf out faster though and had more of a counter heavy hand with little mana denial. On the bright side Tin Fins has a hard time playing around any of our soft counters seeing as they have a very low land count.
Round 4 Manaless Dredge 0/2
Sadly this is where I met my doom. By far a match up that just seems unwinnable due to their ability to grind out the game cabal therapy our hand away and not care about their own life total. Game one he won at 11 life after stabilizing from goyf beats and was able to rip any pieces of permission from my hand then combo out. Game two was similar as well, but I was able to race him sort of. I got him to 2 after bolting one of my early delvers exiling two of his bridges. This wasn't enough though since he just amassed an army of zombies and was able to dread return three times until I just ran out of counterspells.
Round 5 Shardless Bug 0/2
This is the one match where I knew I just kind of punted. Game one I had a single delver beating him down. The key point was where I got him to 6 and passed with spell pierce and chain lightning in hand. I assumed he had Liliana after just drawing 3 cards off of ancestral visions. Sadly he had a waste for my red source. Now the major play mistake was where he brainstormed at 2 life and of course I just said ok thinking "I'll counter any relevant spell with spell pierce", but he drew abrupt decay and if I had spell pierced then he wouldn't have had the mana to play it. Not really sure if that was a play mistake or me just playing too conservatively :rolleyes:. Game 2 I had 2 goyfs beating him down early on. Eventually he played agent cascaded into jitte with two mana up again I had spell pierce, but with me having lethal on board I didn't care if he equipped sine goyf would eat it and I could save pierce for Liliana or pulse. He passed without equipping :really:. After that I swung for lethal one got chumped the other met an abrupt decay. After that creatures + jitte just stole the game out from under me.

Overall I was doing just fine and then got to of the arguably worst match ups around at the end.

After that I decided to drop and go play in an 8 man win a force. After the first round started their I realized it just wasn't my lucky day my random round 1 pairing was against nic fit bug of course :rolleyes:. Game 1 got out of hand after thragtusk joined the party and pernicious deed took out my threats. Game 2 goose did a lot of work and I was able to stifle/waste him out of the game. Game 3 just got really stupid once he started to loop thragtusk with volraths stronghold + phrexian tower :cry:.

[Purgatory]

RUG players, assemble!

Working on the sideboard and match-up guide now, and you can see the very seeds in the second post in the thread.

I need proper boarding plans, however, and I don't keep updated myself. Does anyone have lists that are up-to-date?

[Contract Killer]

For starters, here are what I would call general guide lines for rug sideboarding:

Against fair decks always take some forces out regardless of being on the play or draw! I would also say against any fair deck with hymn we should just ditch force all together. Against a lot of fair decks we want like 2 force OTD since it allows us to still have that "no" button for must answer spells, but if they're running hymn force becomes increasingly worse.

If you are running gitaxian probes I would suggest to cut them except against combo. It's an easy card to cut when you don't have to worry "do they have their combo plus counters XY? Can I tap out for goyf this turn?"

In most match ups (especially fair ones) stifle and daze lose a lot of power on the draw. They still play an integral part in the general theme of the deck. We can't lose sight of that main theme. If we can't beat deck X with consistent plan A then siding into inconsistent plan B probably isn't better. With that being said OTD some number of stifles and dazes should almost always come out. OTP however they should try to stay in.

Against anything with RIP I usually shave one goyf. He's the weakest creature to begin with and completely dead if they land RIP. Not sure if everyone agrees with this, but it usually works for me.

This one some people will probably chew me out for, but I'll say it anyways. Against Miracles ALWAYS side out daze. It's such a dead card in the late game and let's face it miracles will always go into the late game and the last thing you want to draw is the softest of soft permission against them.

Against most combo decks we should probably shave one goyf. He's slow and we're usually siding in a Vendilion clique anyways so our threat density doesn't change. Plus against combo Vendilion clique is like a better goyf because of the disruption stapled to it.


Bug
-4 force, -x daze, -x stifle // +3 submerge, +x REB, +2 price of progress*
REB here is kind of dependent on how many TNN you see. It's more or less a dead card if they're only running like 1 copy, but then they could have more in the sideboard. Needless to say this becomes confusing and just make a judgment call on it.
The daze and stifles here are dependent on whether your OTP or OTD. We don't really have a lot to sideboard here so OTP they should probably all stay in if possible unless there's better stuff then plan A which seems unlikely.

Patriot
OTP -4 force, -1 goyf, -x stifle, -x daze // +2 artifact hate, +3 REB, +2 price of progess*, +1 vendilion clique
OTD -2 force, -1 goyf, -x daze, -x stifle // +2 artifact hate, +3 REB, +2 price of progess*, +1 vendilion clique
Since they're not running hymn keeping in a few forces OTD isn't too bad.
Vendilion clique helps a lot here since it can snatch equipment in response to stoneforge triggers
Stifle isn't as bad in this match up even OTD since hitting germ token triggers is really good.
REB is a must since they have 2 TNN and it's the only real threat we care about that bolt can't deal with.
Artifact hate deals with well resolved artifacts hahaha. I would note that ancient grudge isn't as good here as some others are because they usually side in 3 RIP. Destructive revelry is ok since it's more damage to the face and can hit RIP if we need to. Artifact mutation is bonkers here since unlike Esper stoneblade they won't have mana up to bounce batterskull as consistently. Krosan grip is also not horrible. It's lost a bit of favor lately because of it being slow, but it does get around the bounce affect on batterskull and they can't daze it easily like they could other spells if they're OTP.

*The price of progress is solely dependent on if you're even running the aggressive 8 bolt strategy (that's the only reason it should be in the sideboard to begin with).
Just my two cents.

[ShiftyKapree]

Here's how I board for the match-ups:
Deathblade: - 4 FOW + 3 REB + 1 spell pierce. This match-up is hard keep them off their mana and stifle SFM triggers or Batterskulls germ token. That's always funny when they blank a batterskull :laugh:

RUG mirror match-up: - 4 FOW + 3 REB + 1 Spell Pierce Inexperienced players will disagree with this boarding and say 3 Submerge instead of REB. Also inexperienced players won't board out FOW, never board out daze. If you play a singleton of life from the loam in your board put it in.

Team America: -4 FOW + 3 submerge + 1 Spell Pierce or Divert, I can not stress on how important it is to keep dazes and stifles in on this match-up. you want to keep them in the early game for as long as possible. Divert is a cute way to blow up their own goyf from abrupt decay. I believe this match-up is in our favor mostly because of stifle, if you can keep them off deathrites and lands you have the game won, Nimble Mongoose is the MVP in this match-up.

Jund: - 4 FOW + 3 Submerge + 1 Divert/Spell Pierce Once again divert is so good here in this match-up for Hymm's and Abrubt Decay and Lightning Bolt. I'm not going to lie this is one hell of a hard match-up for us. They have way too many 2 for 1's for us, you can beat them though it is possible, but I play 2 Spell Snares in this match-up for the sole purpose of all the two drops they have and it counter's goyf's. Keep them off goyf and you should win this match-up bc there other creatures can't handle ours.

Miracle Control
- 2 forked bolts - 3 Lightning bolt + 3 REB's +1 Vclique + 1 Spell Pierce/ Destructive Revelry they are going to board in RIP. NEVER OVER EXTEND in this match-up slow and steady wins the race my friend in this match-up. If you over extend you most likely will lose the game. (learned from experience, don't get greedy)

SNT: - 2 Forked Bolt, - 4 Lightning Bolt +3 REB + 1 Vclique + 1 Spell Pierce + 1 ancient grudge I board in the grudge bc they play Defense grid in the sideboard and you bet your ass they're going to bring it in against us. We really want to be able to counter their shit now don't we. This match-up is 50/50 for us, it's beatable I never really worry about the Sneak Attacks because they will most likely be close to being dead. best advice for this match-up is play game one aggressive as much as you can. Game two still play a bit more conservative but don't be afraid to play a turn 1 drop creature.

UWR Delver: - 4 FOW - 2 forked bolt + 3 REB + Vcliue + Ancient Grudge + Destructive Revelry

DNT: -4 fow - 1 forked bolt + 2 Rough/Tumble + Ancient Grudge + Destructive Revelry + 1 sulfur elemental, DNT is a hard match-up for us without sulfur elemental and simply dropping that at the end of turn or attack phase kills a large portion of there deck. I originally didn't play it in my SB but I quickly learned the hard way for not having it.

TES: - 2 Forked Bolt + 1 Vclique + 1 Spell Pierce. Easiest match-up for us all day every day, I would love to play this 9 rounds haha. Our deck is the anti-Christ for them, seriously I hated playing against RUG when I played TES.

Dredge: - 4 Stifle + 1 Grafdiggers + 2 Rough/Tumble + 1 Spell pierce , don't be afraid to burn a delver to remove bridge from below, you play tarmogoyf and can block ichorid all day.

Reanimator: - 2 Forked Bolt - 4 Lightning Bolt + 1 Grafdiggers + Spell Pierce + Vclique + 3 REB's Don't be afraid to REB a BS or Ponder, they are obviously digging for an answer or reanimate spell and REB can't counter those haha but if you have a FOW a blue card to pitch and REB don't counter BS/Ponder unless you have a Spell Pierce for back up.

Blade Control: -4 FOW -2 Forked Bolt + 3 REB's + ancient Grudge + Destructive Revelry + V Clique. I never lost to this match-up and I'm not afraid to play it, I know most people fear the TNN but you can beat them, keep them off their equipment and you'll be fine. Played it twice in GP DC 2-0'd them both games.

U/R Delver: - 4 FOW + 3 REB + 1 Spell Pierce, This match-up depending on the player is really easy or hard (at least in my experience) If you plan to see a lot of this in your meta I suggest you play Zuran Orb and Life from the loam, you will blank them all day.

Affinity: - 3 stifle + Ancient Grudge + Destructive Revelry + Spell Pierce

Turbo Eldrazi - 2 Forked -2 Spell Snare + 3 REB + 1 Spell Pierce/Ancient Grudge

Imperial Painter : - 2 forked Bolt + Ancient Grudge + Destructive Revelry

High Tide: - 2 Forked Bolt - 3 Lightning Bolt + 3 REB + Spell Pierce + Vclique or ancient Grudge

Goblins: - 2 Spell Snares - 2 Spell Pierce + 1 Vclique + 1 Ancient Grudge + 2 rough/tumble Keep stifle in way to many enter the battlefield ability's, You can board daze out, I do if I'm on the draw for this match up

MUD: - 4 Stifle + Ancient Grudge + Destructive Revelry + Spell Pierce + V Clique or Grafdiggers cage

Nice Fit : - 4 FOW + Grafdiggers (GSZ) + 2/3 Submerge + Spell Pierce Depending on what mood I am in I'll either board in Graffdiggers or Spell Pierce. Vclique is also good in this match up.

Elves: My least favorite match-up to see mostly because it screwed me out of day 2 at GP DC haha - 4 Stifle + 2 Rough/tumbe + 1 Grafdiggers Cage + 1 Vclique/Spell Pierce/ Submerge


I'm not sure about boarding against the elves is correct, Idk if we bring in the submerges or not by boarding out the FOW or the Daze, the ones above are correctly listed and I believe most would agree, if you disagree your not your not going to change my mind; but I would like to hear advice for elves. I posted my list a page or two back. In the current meta I would play that full 75. My best advice is to board the way I listed above it's solid.

Don't player error because this deck punishes you hard for it. Always leave mana open, I can't stress this enough, your rug and you can bluff opponents as long as you have a poker face. Always walk to the table with confidence and give your a opponent a strong firm handshake 1 they will respect you and two it show's your not a wimp. (life advice on the handshake too). As for not taking out Daze on the draw, you have to play the control side off the game for most match-ups. I don't play anything my turn one on the draw because I want to stop there turn two unless they play a deathrite and I have a bolt in my hand, even if they daze my bolt and I don't have a daze in my hand you're still up on them regardless on landcount even with deathrite. I hate FOW in most match-ups I don't like pitching it and 2 for 1ing myself with the card when I have a 1 cmc card that can do the same thing. As playing 1 of's in the sideboard it's completely fine bc of all the cantrips and shuffle affects you have, I use to not agree with this but I learned latter on. You will learn a thing or two reading on the source but most of the knowledge you get is from personal experience. I play 2 forked bolts over Git Probe or whatever else mostly because of the amount of deathrites in the meta and how much value you get from it, I know Git Probe is good and yes having knowledge over an opponent is great but I'll still take the forked bolt over it.

[Purgatory]

I say bring Submerge vs Elves every time, more removal is always good, they also run lots of shuffle effects to make Submerge a more "proper" removal, rather than a time walk.

Thanks for for the input, guys, expect an update with these things incorporated.

Also, DTB status, woo!

[poxy14]

Dtb once again!
yup, i do agree with purgatory to bring in submerge vs elves..i usually board out dazes and stifles vs elves..i bring in 3submerges, 2roughs, 1needle, 2grafs..so far i have success battling this archetype..the key vs this matchup is an early delver, follow it up by graf..that counters their major spells like gsz and n.o.,and just burn everything..pierce and fow are just there if ever u havent found graf yet to avoid craterhoof via n.o., they just have too manas and can avoid daze easily, they might also bring in chokes, and that is where fows shine..though i also love dazing any spell to bounce my islands..

[cheerios]

I'm playing a 2 probe build. For elves I just board in 3 submerges, 2 rough, and 1 cage. I board out 2 pierces, 1 daze, 1 stifle, 1 fow, and 1 wasteland. As stated by the other players, submerge is king here. I prefer using submerge as a time walk here and just mop up the board with removal. Stifle can mess up some of their tricks if you're familiar with the deck. I think I'm one of the few guys who board out wastes.

Cheers

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[sawatarix]

Cradle is just to powerful,it should be stopped by wasteland i think.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[cheerios]

Cradle is just to powerful,it should be stopped by wasteland i think.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I agree with you; however, based on my experience 3 wastelands are just enough to answer cradles. Besides wasteland, removal can also lessen Cradle's power. I usually just turn the match up into a race and keep the opponent's board clean as possible.

I can see the point in playing 4 wastelands versus the deck. The current iteration of the deck has a lot of non basics. However, most of the time, I would prefer to draw a counter or a removal spell against them instead of a wasteland.

Cheers

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Barbed Blightning]

RUG players, assemble!

Working on the sideboard and match-up guide now, and you can see the very seeds in the second post in the thread.

I need proper boarding plans, however, and I don't keep updated myself. Does anyone have lists that are up-to-date?

wcm8 had a spectacularly detailed post in the old thread. Possible cards, matchups they're used in, et cetera. If'n you're willing to make the journey, gunslinger, I'd wager the data is still quite relevant.

[Contract Killer]

@Shiftykapree
Overall your match up boarding seems fine except the RUG mirror. You definitely board out FOW, but you board in submerge. What is the one thing our deck has trouble with? What's possibly the most common creature in legacy our deck can't beat? Tarmogoyf. Why do we have submerge in our sideboard? To deal with veteran explorers? No!!! It's to deal with freaking tarmogoyfs so use it. REB also doesn't affect the other key spell in this match up lightning bolt. Yes lightning bolt it breaks goyf stalemates, kills delvers, adds reach etc. We don't need REB in the mirror we need submerge to deal with goyfs.
Also MUD is more or less unwinnable. They have like 6 main deck spells that say we lose (trinisphere and chalice) which go up to like 12 sideboard with thorn thrown into the mix. They also have a tendency to equip blightsteels with lightning greaves and bash our face in

[Purgatory]

@Shiftykapree
Overall your match up boarding seems fine except the RUG mirror. You definitely board out FOW, but you board in submerge. What is the one thing our deck has trouble with? What's possibly the most common creature in legacy our deck can't beat? Tarmogoyf. Why do we have submerge in our sideboard? To deal with veteran explorers? No!!! It's to deal with freaking tarmogoyfs so use it. REB also doesn't affect the other key spell in this match up lightning bolt. Yes lightning bolt it breaks goyf stalemates, kills delvers, adds reach etc. We don't need REB in the mirror we need submerge to deal with goyfs.
Also MUD is more or less unwinnable. They have like 6 main deck spells that say we lose (trinisphere and chalice) which go up to like 12 sideboard with thorn thrown into the mix. They also have a tendency to equip blightsteels with lightning greaves and bash our face in

I agree that bringing in Submerge in the mirror is correct. It seems that a lot of the mirror matches are boiled down to Tarmogoyf and Submerge, unfortunately. Sometimes they are really skill-intensive and really fun, though. :)

[sawatarix]

If your boarding plan above against the mirror is serious,i just want to play the mirrorgame all day long against you and i'm gonna win 70-80% of them i promise !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

I agree that bringing in Submerge in the mirror is correct. It seems that a lot of the mirror matches are boiled down to Tarmogoyf and Submerge, unfortunately. Sometimes they are really skill-intensive and really fun, though. :)

Yeah I'm not saying it's solely based on tarmogoyf, but he at the very least is 80% of the battle. I mean how many games against any deck that has tarmogoyf has been boiled down to "who can break the stalemate first"? In my expierence it's been a lot whether it's BUG delver, Jund (they have a lot of ways to break the stalemate), or even the mirror. All these decks have the same thing in common they can land a goyf and stop anything shy of a delver from attacking lols.


If your boarding plan above against the mirror is serious,i just want to play the mirrorgame all day long against you and i'm gonna win 70-80% of them i promise !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

You're talking to Shiftykapree right lols?

[poxy14]

vs mirror, here's my boarding plan...
- pierce, izzet, fows...in submerges, rebs, if i notice usage of just similar fetches, i boarded in a needle, or a surgical that works well after submerging a crit..reb works well vs opposing delvers, and submerges., goyfs are boss here as well as delvers..this is where mongoose is the weakest..unless ur able to control opp.mana base...on the play and on the draw are occasionally switching of numbers of fows and dazes..just to counter goyf.

[ShiftyKapree]

I board in REB bc the only thing you counter are there counters and creatures. You use REB to counter there submerges, I play 2 spell snare maindeck for goyf and I also save my counters for stifle and goyf's mostly. And when KotR was big Submerge was way way better, still a staple in any rug board. I know you guys think I'm crazy for boarding like that for the mirror but it works for me haha. They're going to bring submerge in against us because its the obvious play to them, but in reality you blank there submerges with REB and they're shit out of luck. Lately I've been thinking about playing Surgical Extraction in the board to wipe out manabases, you shut down BUG by getting ride of either a fetch or Sea's. Also its just good in general to remove there abrupt decays with it. I play six burn spells for delver and goyf wars. There was a time to not run spellsnare but there are way to many 2 drops now not too. I suggest playtest the mirror with it and see who wins the majority of the games bc that's what I did when RUG was on a larger scale even though it is having a comeback I feel like fewer players play it and went to BUG Delver or UWR Patriot.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

wcm8 had a spectacularly detailed post in the old thread. Possible cards, matchups they're used in, et cetera. If'n you're willing to make the journey, gunslinger, I'd wager the data is still quite relevant.
Yes, that post was very good.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-%28a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh%29&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056



@Shiftykapree
Overall your match up boarding seems fine except the RUG mirror. You definitely board out FOW, but you board in submerge.
I also don't get why I should not board Submerges in. It's our only answer to resolved Goyf, unless we want to run our Goyf into their Goyf and let them both die to Bolt.
Also, I play Needle. This makes sb choices bit different for many matchups. E.g. I'm not very thrilled with Subemrge against Elves (it does very little) but what I like is to pith the Symbiote. It makes all our removal much more powerful.

[Contract Killer]

Hey what do you guys think about this list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7155&d=241024&f=LE ? I mean it's very unconventional and it took 7th out of 205 people. It's interesting to say the least I personal hate ditching goose and the full play set of ponders, but it seems to have worked.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey what do you guys think about this list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7155&d=241024&f=LE ? I mean it's very unconventional and it took 7th out of 205 people. It's interesting to say the least I personal hate ditching goose and the full play set of ponders, but it seems to have worked.

SCM is very manahungry for a deck with 18 lands. I guess he took out some Ponders for GPs to lower the curve, but then again SCM eats lots of your life total, if you often fb the Probes. Four removal only cannot be right in any meta, as DRS is everywhere.
I think SCM is very good against Storm (nice Duress overthere, now fight around my Stifles, please) and as a flash threat, it has surprise factor and such. Mongoose has shroud, otoh. And that's what often matters.
Seventh out of two hundred? Well played. The list is pretty strong, though unconventioanl. I'd be interested if it says more about power of GP, SCM or Alberto Benedetti. Any chance the gentleman visits this board?
Also, quite an EDH sb. I'd be afraid to play it without four Ponders, but clearly it worked.

[poxy14]

Indeed a very well played built..well, that's good for us still..on the other hand, i wouldnt be playing this deck without a fullset of bstorms and ofcourse ponders..numerous times i played a one lander (when i drew evrythin very essential, just short of lands)..and these cantrips saved me countless times..early on when im new to this deck, i had two snaps back..but often times i missed the shroud effect, evasion and muscle the other crits has to offer..thats why i opted to cut it and rely heavily on what ponders and brainstorms and lots of awesome spells can provide me on certain difficult situations.

And as mentioned bedecks mentioned..drs is evrywhere..i just cant allow myself not to burn it immediately, i just hate that creature haha.

[Contract Killer]

So I was messing around with RUG yesterday and found a really interesting main deck combination.
Core 54 with 2 gitaxian probe, 2 forked bolt, spell snare, counterspell
sideboard 3 pyroblast, 2 submerge, 2 grafdigger's cage, 2 pithing needle, rough, flusterstorm, krosan grip, vendilion clique, artifact mutation, sulfur elemental
I had one game against shardless bug where I had turn one probe and he had 1 misty, 1 underground, deathrite stuff. Played needle on misty pass proceeded to waste underground and just got an easy win. Playing against miracles is also really fun when you get two needles. First was turn 1 on flooded strand and then I had another one turn 3 or something on arid mesa hahaha. I now see the power in needle it's so flexible and is like never dead while also sometimes being back breaking.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So I was messing around with RUG yesterday and found a really interesting main deck combination.
Core 54 with 2 gitaxian probe, 2 forked bolt, spell snare, counterspell
sideboard 3 pyroblast, 2 submerge, 2 grafdigger's cage, 2 pithing needle, rough, flusterstorm, krosan grip, vendilion clique, artifact mutation, sulfur elemental
I had one game against shardless bug where I had turn one probe and he had 1 misty, 1 underground, deathrite stuff. Played needle on misty pass proceeded to waste underground and just got an easy win. Playing against miracles is also really fun when you get two needles. First was turn 1 on flooded strand and then I had another one turn 3 or something on arid mesa hahaha. I now see the power in needle it's so flexible and is like never dead while also sometimes being back breaking.

I thought about Counterspell as a lategame bomb agaisnt their lategame bombs, but I dislike how it's completely dead in the opening turns, except as a FoW fodder.
I don't remeber the last time I used Needle on fetch, but I may consider this tactic again. Against Miracles I mostly pith Top, but I don't use GP. With Probe I might be more precise with naming.

[Contract Killer]

I thought about Counterspell as a lategame bomb agaisnt their lategame bombs, but I dislike how it's completely dead in the opening turns, except as a FoW fodder.
I don't remeber the last time I used Needle on fetch, but I may consider this tactic again. Against Miracles I mostly pith Top, but I don't use GP. With Probe I might be more precise with naming.

I normal would hit top too, but probe showed island + flooded strand and other stuff (no top). I just went after flooded strand essentially acting like a stifle and found another one in a ponder or brainstorm. At that point he was so far behind on land and where miracles should be I just chose to keep denying mana and name another of the possible 3 fetches he could be running. Counterspell is just something I'm toying with as a one of I've used it before it's never been great, but never horrible. Just gives me flexibility seeing as I can only run two counters if I have 2x probe, 2x forked bolt.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I normal would hit top too, but probe showed island + flooded strand and other stuff (no top). I just went after flooded strand essentially acting like a stifle and found another one in a ponder or brainstorm. At that point he was so far behind on land and where miracles should be I just chose to keep denying mana and name another of the possible 3 fetches he could be running. Counterspell is just something I'm toying with as a one of I've used it before it's never been great, but never horrible. Just gives me flexibility seeing as I can only run two counters if I have 2x probe, 2x forked bolt.
Yes, it was well played, I meant: as I play non-GP builds, I'd go either for a blind Needle naming Top (becasue they play four of it and it's very important card for them), or I'd wait until they play something I may name and then only respond with Needle. (Although this leaves them with at least one activation of the named card, which might be very bad.)

[wcm8]

I think RUG can consider cutting Submerge (or perhaps doing a 2/2 or 3/1 split) with Spite of Mogis. It's capable of killing creatures outside of Bolt range while also having the upside of scrying 1. Granted, it's *not* free, *isn't* an Instant, and it *doesn't* have the potential of 'time walking' the opponent, but it does have the potential to kill Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and other fatties. And a Goyf killed with it *stays* dead.

Against decks that would run dedicated graveyard hate like Rest in Peace, you likely wouldn't be bringing in Submerge anyways. Even so, you could consider bringing it in against UWR Tempo since they typically only run 2 Rest in Peace.

I don't think it's really competing with maindeck Forked Bolt slots, since you want removal like that to kill turn 1 Delvers and DRS. However, you could consider it as a maindeck 1-of (as an alternative to Dismember).

On another topic, I was wondering if anyone has tested running maindeck Pyroblast/REB? I think 1 or 2 of these are a worthwhile consideration given how prevalent Blue is in Legacy.

[sawatarix]

If we look at the tier1 one decks,there is actually just 1 deck wich is not blue: elves.

So what does it mean to us?if the meta shifts into blue pyroblast gets better ,that's obvious.
The question is which of the counterspells is the best one: spell pierce,spell snare or pxroblast (because you can't cut fow or daze for blast,never)

Pierce and snare have still been really good until now to be honest,i really would'nt cut them for blasts.
Getting a ounter for tnn seems good but all the other blue spells can also be snared (dnapcaster,cb) or pierced (almost all blue spells!)
Having less answers to stoneforge mystic and liliana seems really poor


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[trollking21]

If we look at the tier1 one decks,there is actually just 1 deck wich is not blue: elves.

So what does it mean to us?if the meta shifts into blue pyroblast gets better ,that's obvious.
The question is which of the counterspells is the best one: spell pierce,spell snare or pxroblast (because you can't cut fow or daze for blast,never)

Pierce and snare have still been really good until now to be honest,i really would'nt cut them for blasts.
Getting a ounter for tnn seems good but all the other blue spells can also be snared (dnapcaster,cb) or pierced (almost all blue spells!)
Having less answers to stoneforge mystic and liliana seems really poor


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Jund is tier 1 and blast does nothing there.

[poxy14]

stifle-less built took over SCG Detroit, congrats Morgan Mclaughlin!
(tnn's, chain lightnings, probes)

Ben Weinburg also top 8'ed with the stocklist

GO RUG!

[Contract Killer]

stifle-less built took over SCG Detroit, congrats Morgan Mclaughlin!
(tnn's, chain lightnings, probes)

Ben Weinburg also top 8'ed with the stocklist

GO RUG!

I can't help, but think that stifleless delver has an extremely worse miracles match up. I mean sure you get better cards for the times when stifle doesn't do "much", but it has so many back breaking applications (fetches, germ tokens, RIP trigger, miracles, etc). Then again he did take first so I guess it worked for him.

[poxy14]

I can't help, but think that stifleless delver has an extremely worse miracles match up. I mean sure you get better cards for the times when stifle doesn't do "much", but it has so many back breaking applications (fetches, germ tokens, RIP trigger, miracles, etc). Then again he did take first so I guess it worked for him.

definitely worked for him, i was watching bits of the finals (rug vs shardless) coz i was in the office : ), and pondered that if he was holding a stifle any moment during the second game, he could just break liliana.. well, some lists works on a lucky day, but he did very well maneuvering this list..
I, still wouldnt sleeve up this deck without any .........STIFLES. that card is just too good.

[Contract Killer]

definitely worked for him, i was watching bits of the finals (rug vs shardless) coz i was in the office : ), and pondered that if he was holding a stifle any moment during the second game, he could just break liliana.. well, some lists works on a lucky day, but he did very well maneuvering this list..
I, still wouldnt sleeve up this deck without any .........STIFLES. that card is just too good.

Yeah I just can't see running RUG without stifle. There's some virtual advantage if you run 4 tarn, 4 misty and just bluff it having your opponent play around it causing for some upside. On the other hand just having it allows for so much versatility across the board.
On another note I just realized Ben's list did not have any SUBMERGES and only ONE PYROBLAST??? Did he just plan on dodging BUG delver, Maverick and any TNN's? That just seems like such an all in sideboard banking on everything going well with probe/stifle/snare combinations.

[Contract Killer]

Just watched game 2 of Ben's first top8 game against Maverick where he gets his board wiped by zealous persecution :eek: So much think tank going on there "what could he have" "you can't reason with a man running into the middle of the street ripping his shirt off like King Kong!" hahaha Both of those games against Thomas were just ripped from Ben's hand. It reminds me of playing against miracles and watching the stabilize at 3 or less and you're just like really :rolleyes:

[Tormod]

Heavy misplay by Gerhart cost him game 3.

At 5 life, After a suspended Ancestral vision resolves, gerhart with 3 mana abrupts Morgans Tarmogoyf, and then walks his own Deathrite Shaman into Daze. Leaving both players with an empty board. If he played Drs, then abrupt. It would been a much different game.

[Cambriel]

Any advice on improving our Lands matchup? It seems to have become a more and more prevalent deck over the last couple of months, and I haven't had a lot of success. It's such an attrition based matchup, and game 1 especially leaves us with a pile of dead cards.

[cheerios]

What's your opinion on Dack (new walker from Conspiracy)? Steal Batterskull and the ultimate are pretty good abilities for a 3 mana walker. Is it playable?

Cheers

[thecrav]

What's your opinion on Dack (new walker from Conspiracy)? Steal Batterskull and the ultimate are pretty good abilities for a 3 mana walker. Is it playable?

Cheers

Steal Batterskull is meh. You don't get the token, so unless you've got 5 lands in play, all you're doing is removing that particular thread.

Stealing Jitte or SoFI on the other hand is hilariously good.

Dack's ultimate + maindeck pyroblast? PLEASE BE A THING. PLEASE.

[cheerios]

Steal Batterskull is meh. You don't get the token, so unless you've got 5 lands in play, all you're doing is removing that particular thread.

Stealing Jitte or SoFI on the other hand is hilariously good.

Dack's ultimate + maindeck pyroblast? PLEASE BE A THING. PLEASE.

Just curious, what happens to the token if you steal the Batterskull?

I Lol'ed at that Dack-Pyroblast interaction. The walker will probably be the new rage and could probably cost an arm and a leg.

If Rug's gonna play it, which cards are gonna be swapped for Dack? MD is tight as it is and I'm seeing Dack as a super enhanced version of Sylvan Library. I'm thinking of swapping the grudges for this guy but that won't solve Chalices.

Cheers for some legacy love

[kavaki]

Just curious, what happens to the token if you steal the Batterskull?


The opponent keeps the token, still equipped with the skull. While you still control said 'skull, it still remains equipped.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Any advice on improving our Lands matchup? It seems to have become a more and more prevalent deck over the last couple of months, and I haven't had a lot of success. It's such an attrition based matchup, and game 1 especially leaves us with a pile of dead cards.
You need to be fast, deal the dmg soon enough before they stabilize. Pith the Maze sothat your targetable dudes may go through. Crypt is good against Loam, so is Extraction. Keep countering anything hurtful, esp. Loam, it may buy you enough turns, but also counter Crop Rot. Keep Waste for Glacial Chasm.
It's horrible matchup, no surprise, Lands are build to win it. But it's doable, I won some matches. You're playing a deck with best cantrip power, so you should be able to find what you need soon enough.

[Contract Killer]

Any advice on improving our Lands matchup? It seems to have become a more and more prevalent deck over the last couple of months, and I haven't had a lot of success. It's such an attrition based matchup, and game 1 especially leaves us with a pile of dead cards.


You need to be fast, deal the dmg soon enough before they stabilize. Pith the Maze sothat your targetable dudes may go through. Crypt is good against Loam, so is Extraction. Keep countering anything hurtful, esp. Loam, it may buy you enough turns, but also counter Crop Rot. Keep Waste for Glacial Chasm.
It's horrible matchup, no surprise, Lands are build to win it. But it's doable, I won some matches. You're playing a deck with best cantrip power, so you should be able to find what you need soon enough.

For Lands my best experience has been with dropping delver and geese as fast as possible while daze/forcing their early spells like exploration and loam. Your best bet is to try and force them to go on the defensive so they don't waste you out of the game early on. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm pretty sure if you're running Price in the sideboard this match up becomes a cakewalk seeing as it's like a 10dmg burn spell here.


What's your opinion on Dack (new walker from Conspiracy)? Steal Batterskull and the ultimate are pretty good abilities for a 3 mana walker. Is it playable?

Cheers

I definitely think this could be a thing for us. The +1 seems like a win more type of a thing since tapping 3 for a loot effect is really bad and it's only at 4 loyalty so it dies to most decks with threats out. Since I have nothing better to do artifacts that are silly to steal:
SoXY
Jitte
Aether vial essentially a stone rain type effect for us
Bye bye pesky ensnaring bridge :D
Baleful Strix
Batterskull
Thopter Foundry assuming they don't have the combo going it forces them to sac it so that's worth while

We actually don't even care if SoXY or jitte are equipped because if we control it they can swing and we get to decide how to use the triggers (not 100% sure on this anyone want to chime in?). At least from what I can tell SoFI will work in our favor, SoFF still hurts us a bit with discard, but we get to untap our lands so that's something, SoWP is a wash. The batterskull situation isn't good, but what's been your guy's experience with that to begin with? For me my opponent almost always seems to get jitte, SoFI or other stuff because if we have bolt or stifle batterskull is very dead regardless of the deck they're playing. If they do get it at the very lest Dack is a two turn answer for it because we steal it then bounce it to their hand.
His ultimate seems really funny if you're running fork bolt in the main not that it's likely, but still it's silly.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Dack is awful. I'd play Jace Beleren before him.

@ Lands: Yes, PoP is a card that may win you this matchup, just be careful of Crop:Clasm in response to Price. Either keep some hard counter (they may play around Daze with no troubles) or even better: active Waste.

[Contract Killer]

Dack is awful. I'd play Jace Beleren before him.

Is he really that awful? I mean his plus one is ok the -2 though is where it's at. I mean sure it doesn't deal with batterskull, but it deals with any other equipment just fine.

[wcm8]

Personally I'd think Dack is worth testing as a singleton. All of the abilities can be relevant, and a repeatable Faithless Looting ability is great in a deck like RUG.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lets wait for the tests. Personally I don' find neither space nor use for him. Looting effect doesn't seem esp. good for thresh, we need every card, unless we may discard lands. He's much better sutieed for a deck with LftL and Punishing Fire... NLT?

[Cambriel]

Lets wait for the tests. Personally I don' find neither space nor use for him. Looting effect doesn't seem esp. good for thresh, we need every card, unless we may discard lands. He's much better sutieed for a deck with LftL and Punishing Fire... NLT?

His +1 feeds goyf and goose, and his -2 wins equipment wars. Both of those things can be challenges for RUG in various matchups. I honestly think he has potential as a sideboard option, but I doubt I'd want him in the main. Consider though, that he can potentially replace both Sylvan Library and Ancient Grudge in sideboards, effectively buying you another card slot.

[Contract Killer]

His +1 feeds goyf and goose, and his -2 wins equipment wars. Both of those things can be challenges for RUG in various matchups. I honestly think he has potential as a sideboard option, but I doubt I'd want him in the main. Consider though, that he can potentially replace both Sylvan Library and Ancient Grudge in sideboards, effectively buying you another card slot.

His plus one isn't that great. I mean sure it feeds goose and goyf, but we don't want to have card disadvantage by doing it. If we pitch lands then we're down to like two duals of any one color and only one if we already have one of that color out. This could lead to some very easy wasteland blow outs by the opponent if they see we pitched volcanic and aggressively waste the other red sources. It has some use in pitching cards that become increasingly worse as the game goes on such as daze or stifle depending on the match up. We can also use it to dig for more disruption against combo by discarding any extra creatures. It's definitely interesting, but the looting isn't exactly where RUG wants to be. The looting has potential you just have to find the right stuff to discard for the given situation.

[TheHeff]

Hi all! Recently stumbled onto this website as MTGSalvation is a bit stagnant in the Legacy threads. I picked up RUG delver about a month ago (the normal 54 + 2/2/2 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt) to take to my LGS' Legacy Tuesdays. The meta is fairly diverse, but mostly in "fair" decks. Every once in awhile there's a Belcher/S&S/Elves/Infect player or two around, but for the most part it's very blue heavy (Miracles, UWR, Shardless BUG, Team America, RUG Delver). I have a pretty good feel for the deck after playing it for this past month (playing with Stifle was one of the reasons the deck appealed to me, and it hasn't disappointed!), but even though I feel I have a strong sideboard (thanks to some netdeck searching and comments on MTGSalvation), I'm still not 100% confidant of my sideboarding plans. My current sideboard is:

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Submerge
2x Rough // Tumble
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Flusterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique

In general, I find myself going -4 FoW on the play, and -4 Daze on the draw almost no matter what (like I said, about 90% fair decks). I know generally what cards I want to bring in where, but I'm not sure what things I'm cutting. Is it ever right to cut creatures? It seems like I just alter my countermagic package depending on the deck, take out FB if it has a lack of targets, and trim the numbers of Stifle or Lightning Bolt if necessary? What would be some basic SB plans against UWR or BUG?

[Contract Killer]

Hi all! Recently stumbled onto this website as MTGSalvation is a bit stagnant in the Legacy threads. I picked up RUG delver about a month ago (the normal 54 + 2/2/2 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt) to take to my LGS' Legacy Tuesdays. The meta is fairly diverse, but mostly in "fair" decks. Every once in awhile there's a Belcher/S&S/Elves/Infect player or two around, but for the most part it's very blue heavy (Miracles, UWR, Shardless BUG, Team America, RUG Delver). I have a pretty good feel for the deck after playing it for this past month (playing with Stifle was one of the reasons the deck appealed to me, and it hasn't disappointed!), but even though I feel I have a strong sideboard (thanks to some netdeck searching and comments on MTGSalvation), I'm still not 100% confidant of my sideboarding plans. My current sideboard is:

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Submerge
2x Rough // Tumble
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Flusterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique

In general, I find myself going -4 FoW on the play, and -4 Daze on the draw almost no matter what (like I said, about 90% fair decks). I know generally what cards I want to bring in where, but I'm not sure what things I'm cutting. Is it ever right to cut creatures? It seems like I just alter my countermagic package depending on the deck, take out FB if it has a lack of targets, and trim the numbers of Stifle or Lightning Bolt if necessary? What would be some basic SB plans against UWR or BUG?

For UWR with your build bring 3x REB, 2x artifact hate and side out OTP -4 force, -1 spell pierce OTD -2 force, -3 daze. Another option is to also shave one goyf which is something I tend to do when I know the opponent will most likely bring in RIP.
For BUG it depends on if we're talking shardless BUG, midrange BUG or tempo BUG (something you don't see too often these days). Regardless of the BUG build you take 4 force out because it's horrible in fair match ups and even worse when they have Hymn. After that what you bring is some mix of submerge/REB depending on how many TNNs you suspect they have.

[poxy14]

Another option is to also shave one goyf which is something I tend to do when I know the opponent will most likely bring in RIP.

+1,
though not much of an impact, i would rather bring in sulfur elem or any crit in my sb just to replace goyf.. vendilion is very good here! and dazes are additional out vs tnns alongside multiple copies of rebs. All copies of stifles should stay (OTP and OTD) as these functions multi-role...added artifact hate : ) and slows them down getting to that dangerous three manas...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I second the above sb plans. Also, if your meta lacks grave decks, you can (maybe) shave the gy hate and add an Artifact Mutation which is an amazing tempo boost and gives you so much board power once you'll hit Batterskull... which is a go-to equipment of any SFM deck facing Thresh.
I like Pithing Needle, see the above discussion why it's good; mostly it's your one-mana answer to cards that either stop your onslaught (MoR, Maze), serve an important role in opponent's development (Top, KotR) or are outright wincons (Liliana, Grindstone). I play two of them, but one may be enough. Depends on what you want from the card and if it fits your style.
I'm not sure about Vortex, on paper it's strong card with lots of applications, sadly I never had much success with it and I remember it was: immediatelly Abrupted once it dealt whopping two damage, or being an annoying topdeck that didn't help me when I needed to get any counter for the inevitable Entreat, or actually helping my opponent race me once he sworded my goyf to finally get the germ through my wall.

[TheHeff]

Thanks for the sideboarding advice! As for Artifact Mutation, do you feel like that's better than Ancient Grudge? Sure it's not the tempo advantage that AM is, but with 2 shots in 1 card it has built-in card advantage. Plus if you use it once against UWR, they won't drop another arti until they have a way to get rid of it. The K-Grip is extra insurance against Miracles (which my meta has two semi-regulars of) so I wouldn't cut that either.

[Tormod]

Thanks for the sideboarding advice! As for Artifact Mutation, do you feel like that's better than Ancient Grudge? Sure it's not the tempo advantage that AM is, but with 2 shots in 1 card it has built-in card advantage. Plus if you use it once against UWR, they won't drop another arti until they have a way to get rid of it. The K-Grip is extra insurance against Miracles (which my meta has two semi-regulars of) so I wouldn't cut that either.

Opponent attacked with 2 Dark Confidants, one equipped with Jitte, i had no creatures in play and with one card in hand. Artifact Mutation blew up the jitte and I traded 2 saprolings for 2 confidants... Welcome to value town.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ancient Grudge has a built-in CA, but as the main equipments-heavy deck is any kind of SFM 60, it's quite reasonable to expect RiP (which nullifies the flashback) and BSK (which is a prime target for Mutation, as five 1/1 dudes is enough to either stall for the Delver win or to turn the tide against a sole SFM/Thalia/whatever the dude that survives your many Bolts).
In a less SFM centric meta (where there are not that many DnT, Mav, UWR and such) it isn't that powerful, of course. But I see the germs everywhere. As a compromise, I play both AG and AM as a singleton in my sb.
KGrip is very good choice, esp. against Miracles that can't touch our mana. While Mutation is powerful, it has the downside of being effective only against big targets (mostly BSK, but also Stax thingies, no matter they're not played anymore) and costing double colored mana. I'd cut it for KGrip in a meta with lesser pressence of SFM, unless there'd be lots of MUD flying around, in which case I'd increase the AG count to two (so that I got lots of early outs against lock pieces) and I'd keep one AM as a "you lose" card for any of the big targets be it Golem, KFM, Hellkite or WCE, once in pale moon living a dream when you kill sick targets like Emperion or Titan.

[Purgatory]

I've updated the primer with match-up analyses and sideboarding tips for the DTBs and UWR Delver. If you have the time, feel free to read through it and tell me what you think.

[index]

Miracles:

OUT: Daze, Forked Bolt
IN: Pyroblast, Destructive Revelry

in my oppinion this should be the right boarding plan:

- 4 daze
- 2 forked bolt/dismember
- 1 wasteland ( if you need the space for other sb cards )

+ 2 flusterstorm
+ 3 Pyroblast
+ 1 Surgical Extration

BUG delver:

OUT: Force of Will
IN: Submerge

This should be right:

- 4 Fow otp / 2 daze 4 fow otd

+ 3 Submerge
+ 1 Surgical extration
+ 2 Flusterstorm otd

Jund:

OUT: Force of Will
IN: Submerge

this should be like this:

- 4 Fow
- 1 forked bolts if you play them because those are worse than rough//toumble

+3 Submerge
+2 Rough//Toumble

And some other mu's:

Elves:

- 4 daze
- 4 stifle

+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 3 Submerge
+ 2 rough toumble
+ 1 Grafdiggers cage

ANT:

- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Forked bolt
- 1 Nimble Mongoose

+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 grafdiggers cage
+ 2 Pyroblast

Death and taxes:

- 4 Stifle

+ 2 rough//Toumble
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 Sulfur elemental

Deathblade:

- 2 fow otp / - 1 daze - 2 fow otd

+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 destructive revelry
+ 2 pyroblast otp / + 3 pyroblast otd


Another thing is, i don't like your example sb. You should add there more hate for miracle since miracle is the top deck atm. This could be winter orb, sulfuric vortex and clique. Those are also great vs other bad mu's and have a high impact. For Example: Winter orb is great vs any shardless bug, bug control, miracle and combo. But it makes your daze/spell pierce/flusterstorm even better in the lategame when they usually are dead cards. Sulfuric vortex works also great vs death and taxes, lands and any other "draw-go" mu's.

If there are any questions, feel free to ask.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Death and taxes:

- 4 Stifle



I don't think this is right. Stifle protects your mana and it's another out to SFM and RiP. I think there are other things to take out, I'd start with -1 each of FoW, Daze, Stifle, random card. You don't need all the Stifles, but you need at least some of them.

[Contract Killer]

I don't think this is right. Stifle protects your mana and it's another out to SFM and RiP. I think there are other things to take out, I'd start with -1 each of FoW, Daze, Stifle, random card. You don't need all the Stifles, but you need at least some of them.

Personally against D&T I like the following:
-4 FOW, -2 Daze / +1 rough, 2 artifact hate, 1 sulfur elemental, 2 pithing needle
Force is just so bad here especially if they have vial because then it doesn't even counter their creatures. Sure you can live the dream and always have force for their turn 1 vial, but that defeats the purpose since they will still have creatures. In addition they also have some number of caverns usually to protect high value targets like SFM. Is it worth bringing in clique here? It steals SFM targets and is another way to deal with flickerwisp/ serra avenger. The downside to clique is the 3 mana can be kind of difficult against a deck with 4 waste, 4 port and all of our wastes will be aimed at either cavern/karakas/port unlike miracles where it can allow to help pay for clique.

I tried a build with 2 probe, 2 forked bolt, 1 counterspell, 1 pierce and pithing needles in the side along with the regular sideboard choices. Unfortunately round 1 was loam control arguably one of the worst match ups and I lost in 2. Round 2 was D&T and I lost in 3 close games. After playing other rug builds 2/2/2 snare/pierce/forked bolt or probe builds I actually thing the 8 bolt plan is just better right now. Even against miracles half the time against them they seem to stabilize at 3 or less life and I can't push that last bit of damage through.
With that being said I'm thinking about trying this
Core 50, 3 goyf, 1 sylvan library, 4 chain lightning, 1 counterspell, 1 snare and probably a price or two in the side.
The Library gives us card advantage through having a ponder on our upkeep which is really good if we're just going straight beat down plan and bolting their face very chance we get. Counterspell and snare I think allow for the most flexibility and efficiency. The single snare and counterspell split gives us more "Forces" for certain match ups since snare hits a lot of cards right now and counterspell is great against Miracles which is really popular. I think this configuration will really speed the deck up and offer resiliency with the two counters in it. What do you guys think?

[sawatarix]

Interesting that there are so many different opinions about boarding against death&taxes.

Your arguments make absolute sense but i board kinda differently:

-force of will stays,the full set: people tend to board fow out against fair matchups because of the carddisadcantage but they miss something:
Even in the fair games fow is a excellent tempo counter which allows you to drop a creature and counter their thread 100%.
For example a lategame swords to plowshares can be negated.
Remember jacob wilson in the finals against thomas enevoldsen in gp strassbourg,he also left in the whole set.

By the way,i leave (2-4 of ) my fows in the deck against these fair decks:

Mirror
Esperblade
Uwr delver



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[cheerios]

I agree with not boarding out the FOWs for this match up. What I usually board out are the spell pierces and a goyf for sulfur elemental, and a pair of grudges.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I play really controlish games against DnT, esp. in light of RiP that negates Goyfs. I board in Needles (MoR, Vial, Port), Roughs (obv.), artifact removal. With FoW beeing pretty weak against Caver/Vial, I take some of them out, namely because I don't really try to protect Goyf, becasue they got lots of options how to get rid of it. I usualy deliver some fast dmg with Delver, then when the sky blackens... well, whitens, I try to clean the mess with removal, while destroying the ground forces with Rough, Needle and Grudge. After they got rid of Delver (and Goyf), it's up to Mongoose to win, even as a 1/1. As long as you can keep their side of table empty, mere 1/1 will win, esp. if it's followed by additional 1/1 dudes.
It's not super duper amazing plan, and the games tend to be ugly. At the end, a win is all that matters.

What I'm trying to accomplish in DnT matchup are these goals (in no particular order):
- save my mana (Stifle the Wasteland activations, Needle naming the Port)
- stop their EOT shenanigans and mana advantage (Needle/Grudge the Vial)
- prevent the use of equipments (bolt the SFM, pith the Jitte, or simply destroy equips with artifact removal)
- kill their dudes, hopefully with CA (mostly Rough, but Elemental also helps as it takes out the x/1 dudes)
- Snare the gamebreaking spells (SFM, Jitte, RiP) or those that interfere with our plan (Thalia) or deck (Leonin Arbiter)
- Pierce/FoW the removal or RiP (not that I keep Pierce postboard, but I have done so in past)
- keep Bolts for x/3 dudes (Avenger) and as a combat trick with a two-for-one potential
- FoW Brimaz/Elf, if there's a chance
- deal some fast damage with Aberations, use Goyf aggresively as long as it's possible, retort to 1/1 beats once all else fails
- gain some CA with Forked Bolt
- kill/neutralize MoR asap

You need:
Rough as your one-sided WoG
Needle, asa versatile answer to lots of cards
Artifact removal against equipments; Grudge is goo that it may be "wasted" on Vial if need be, AM makes lots of tokens occasionaly.

You want:
Less FoWs. Some of them come out for the real answers.
Less Dazes. It's weak spell in grindy games.
Less Pierces. It sometimes stops StP and RiP (as Vial is often a turn1 play) and that's about it.

Is there anything I'm missing?

[Purgatory]

Thanks for the input, guys. Hopefully I'll get some spare time towards the weekend to update the primer some more.

[Exuberance]

Unless you copied someone's exact sideboard from here, I'd wager that none of us have the exact same fifteen. This makes me feel that a precise sideboarding guide (+x, -y) is basically pointless. Like, I know I should board in Sulfur Elemental against D&T, but I don't have one in my board because I don't actually expect that much D&T. My sideboard changes every tournament I go to, depending on what's doing well. A detailed plan is a good basis, but there may be cards in the example sideboard that some people refuse to play, for whatever reason.

Certainly the general strategy is to board out some number of Forces and Dazes against non-combo decks, and board out some removal spells and/or Goyfs against the combo decks. Obviously, it's not that black-and-white, but we all know the basics. Hopefully.

Oh and hopefully everyone has at least two REB variants, two Submerge, and one Ancient Grudge - I feel like those are universal qualifications for any self-respecting Thresh pilot.

[Contract Killer]

Unless you copied someone's exact sideboard from here, I'd wager that none of us have the exact same fifteen. This makes me feel that a precise sideboarding guide (+x, -y) is basically pointless. Like, I know I should board in Sulfur Elemental against D&T, but I don't have one in my board because I don't actually expect that much D&T. My sideboard changes every tournament I go to, depending on what's doing well. A detailed plan is a good basis, but there may be cards in the example sideboard that some people refuse to play, for whatever reason.

Certainly the general strategy is to board out some number of Forces and Dazes against non-combo decks, and board out some removal spells and/or Goyfs against the combo decks. Obviously, it's not that black-and-white, but we all know the basics. Hopefully.

Oh and hopefully everyone has at least two REB variants, two Submerge, and one Ancient Grudge - I feel like those are universal qualifications for any self-respecting Thresh pilot.

I do think the ancient grudge is becoming a bit loose in recent times. I mainly say that because the two popular decks that we bring grudge in against (Esper stoneblade, UWR Delver), also bring in rest in peace. This halves grudge's value at which point any other artifact hate gains more value with whatever bonuses they bring to the table. Don't get me wrong I love having grudge and my opponent ending up with dead equipment, but lately I always get my hopes ruined by RIP. The other thing is and this may just be me, but UWR in particular seems to always sequence there plays so that they try to stick equipment then if a grudge hits they always have an RIP follow up.

[Exuberance]

That's fair. Okay, so two Submerge, two REB variant, and one Disenchant variant. Or at least Naturalize. The other ten slots are basically whatever you want.

[Contract Killer]

That's fair. Okay, so two Submerge, two REB variant, and one Disenchant variant. Or at least Naturalize. The other ten slots are basically whatever you want.

I do think a singleton Rough and Vendilion Clique are fairly standard though. Clique is like one of the best sideboard cards for us to make our already awesome combo match up that much easier. Another thing I've heard is Clique is really good against miracles. Rough is just great against any Maverick, D&T or elves that you run across. As for a "cookie cutter" sideboard I would say something like this is a good set of guidelines:
11/15
2 submerge
2 REB
1 Vendilion Clique
2 combo hate in addition to reb/Clique (probably at least one being flusterstorm, because it gets around counterbalance and is a house for combo match ups)
2 artifact hate
1 board sweeper type effect (rough, grim, firespout, etc)
1 graveyard hate
After that is where stuff tends to differ, but those are like the bare minimum to have something to fit all those requirements.

[Exuberance]

My next tournament is the SCG Knoxville open - I think I might switch the fourth Goyf for a Clique, not play the (personally) untested Eight Bolt build and instead play some number of Probes, and maybe play one Grudge and one Krosan Grip or Destructive Revelry. Wish I knew what the Tennessee meta was.

[sawatarix]

Knowing the metagame is crucial when building a rug-deck for a specific tournament.

(During gp strassbourg 2013, i disussed rugdelver with my friend tomoharu saito,we finally thought that 7 bolts and no stifle(!) but 4 pierce and 3 snare would be great to fight the overload of team america/jund decks
So he did and succeed,at least in the legacy champion shit (2th of 400,lost in the finaly against buddy carsten kötter from berlin)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

My next tournament is the SCG Knoxville open - I think I might switch the fourth Goyf for a Clique, not play the (personally) untested Eight Bolt build and instead play some number of Probes, and maybe play one Grudge and one Krosan Grip or Destructive Revelry. Wish I knew what the Tennessee meta was.

If it's any consolation I took an 8 bolt build to SCG Seattle and ended up going 5/1 with it before losing to Imperial Painter kicking me out of contention which is just a horrible match up to begin with. It was really good even against stuff like combo or miracles. Goose gets to threshold so much faster like having a turn against miracles or combo going "chain lightning, chain lightning, swing with goose 9 point turn go". You just force them to either have it or die. The other bonus is deathrite, SFM, bob, delver and any other creatures always die on sight now, but most importantly deathrite.

[sawatarix]

Yep,i wouldn't leave home without 7-8 bolts


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

@Purgatory I've been reading the primer about match ups and one thing you should add to the Miracles portion is the interaction with miracle triggers and fetches. For example if they try to terminus with fetch and no white mana up and pass priority then let it resolve because at that point they can't fetch for white mana to actually cast it. It doesn't come up too often, but I've had it happen with a goose that got threshed quickly by bolts. This is also one of the few times that you might want to stifle a fetch since it may as well be stifling the miracle trigger anyways.

[Contract Killer]

Hey what do you guys think about searching around for some cards with something along the lines "creatures opponents control can't block" type of a thing? It gets around TNN and we might not even have to worry about goyfs bouncing off each other. Just a thought I found the thread that was started way back when TNN first came out (a little late to the party I know) and they were talking about how he played defense better than offense. Just a thought I doubt it will actually turn up anything relevant.