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Dragonslayer_90
04-07-2014, 07:34 PM
http://s27.postimg.org/burgf7wwz/Team_America_small.jpg





Table of Contents

I. Overview
II. History
III. Core List
IV. Maindeck Flex Slots
V. Common Sideboard Cards
VI. General Strategic Guidelines
VII. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide
VIII. Other Successful Lists
IX. Further Reading

I. Overview

Team America (A.K.A. BUG Delver) is fundamentally an Aggro-Control deck. The current face of Team America splices elements of Blue-based Tempo and BGx midrange. This composition allows the deck to make powerful plays in the early game and still be able to play magic into the mid and late game. The deck looks to generate tempo through a “Tap out” method with an early Deathrite Shaman. The idea of Tapout tempo is to cast lots of cheap spells and hold up manaless counters in the early game to get so far ahead your that your opponent has a hard time getting back into the game. Proactive discard, manaless counters, the uncounterable Abrupt Decay, and high quality creatures allows this deck to accel at generating tempo. The deck usually plays around 14 creatures total. All of these creatures are so good that they must be answered right away as they end the game quickly (Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker) or take over the game by allowing you to get so far ahead (Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman). The cantrip suite of Brainstorm and Ponder enables a consistency that is the hallmark of Legacy’s tempo strategies.


II. History

The deck itself has an interesting history to its creation as it started out as joke deck of David Gearhart’s. In its primordial form, it was originally just Blue-Black, played Tombstalkers and Confidants as threats, and had Team America’s early land destruction package of Sinkhole and Wasteland. Also, it had no removal and main decked four Extirpates. "To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play)" said Daniel Signorini about the first iteration of Team America. Eventually, Dan and David started working on the deck to make it more competitive, at one point adding Phyrexian dreadnoughts and snuff outs. When they decided to try out Goyf the deck began to come into its own:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict

A far cry from present-day lists. The additions of Delver of Secrets, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in recent years have enabled Team America to become one of the most competitive tempo decks in Legacy.


III. Core List

The current core of Team America consists of the following cards:

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman - The best creature in the deck. He does it all: acceleration, threat, and stabilizer. While not as aggressive as a Turn One Delver, this card enables some of most insane starts for the deck.

4 Delver of Secrets - The namesake of legacy's tempo decks. This card helps the deck put pressure on your opponent fast and is at its best when played within the first two turns. You should never play less than four for this reason alone.

4 Tarmogoyf - Good ol' Goyf. This card provides a huge body at such low cost that can stabilize the board against more aggressive creature decks and clock combo, midrange, and control pretty fast.

Instants

4 Brainstorm - Arguably the best card in legacy. With a fetchland its almost Ancestral Recall. In this deck Brainstorm helps ensure our Delvers flip in addition to all its other amazing uses.

3-4 Abrupt Decay - The other reason to play Green and Black. While less efficient than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares, it makes up for it by being uncounterable and more flexible overall.

3-4 Force of Will - Often called "the glue" that holds Legacy together. While bad in fair matchups, it is still a manaless catch-all answer that can be used to out-tempo your opponent when used rightly.

3-4 Daze - The other manaless counter that helps the deck generate tempo. You should be less selective with this spell in what you want to counter much of the time since Daze gets worse as the the game goes into the mid and late game. There are exceptions to this though, like when you want save it for a counter war against a combo deck.

Sorceries

3-4 Ponder - Pretty much Brainstorm 5-8, though without a fetch it is usually better than Brainstorm at digging for answers or action. Personally I'm hesitant to play less than 4 since cantrips allow tempo decks to be highly consistent and adaptable to many different situations. I would never go below 3.

3-4 Hymn to Tourach - Consider this card the Stifle of the deck as you often want it to hit lands when you play it. It is less consistent than Stifle at denying your opponent mana but more explosive and does much more in general. At its best when played in the early game to force your opponent to stumble.

The Mana Base

The configuration of the mana base depends on your build. More blue heavy builds usually run a 2-1 split between Tropical Island and Bayou respectively while traditional black heavy builds run the reverse split. Anways, here's a skeleton for Team America's manabase:

8-9 BUG Color fetches
1-2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou
3-4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland - Not really a land, but don't be hesitant to use for mana it if it gets a Goyf on the table!


IV. Maindeck Flex Slots

Assuming you follow the above core list, the remaining slots are usually filled with following cards, depending on meta and preference:

Creatures

1-3 Tombstalkers - The traditional "resilient" beater of the deck. He's fantastic against any fair deck not playing white. Best in metas with not too many Swords, Jace, Rest in Peace, etc.
1-2 Dark Confidant - Bob provides the deck another angle of attack by giving it more grinding power. He will not end the game fast like Tombstalker, but like Deathrite Shaman he will put you so far ahead that you should eventually win.
1-2 True-Name Nemesis - The most resilient threat for the deck to fill out the last few creature slots.

Instant

1-2 Disfigure - A supplemental removal spell. Effective for killing must kill one-drops like Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey, opposing Deathrite Shamans, etc.

1 Dismember - Another supplemental removal spell that can kill more creatures than Disfigure. This card can often kill a Goyf. However, the potential life loss can sometimes matter.

Sorcery

2-4 Thoughtseize - The other discard spell to consider. Less exposive than Hymn to Tourach but more consistent since you get to choose what card to take. The information is often very helpful as well.

Misc.

1-3 Liliana of the Veil - This card is a peculiar consideration at first since planeswalkers have not traditionally been part of tempo maindecks. However, Liliana provides awesome incremental advantage at such a low cost, making her the exception. Played Turn 2 off a Deathrite is a particularly powerful play that can shut down many decks. In Team America she allows you to grind into the mid and late game.

1 Sylvan Library - Your other option for cheap incremental advantage. Think of it as mini-Jace.


V. Common Sideboard Cards

Creatures

1-2 Vendilion Clique - The most common creature in a Team America sideboard. Great against combo, control, and any deck with Stoneforge Mystic.

Instants

1-2 Diabolic Edict - Another supplemental removal spell. This effect is already provided well enough by Liliana of the Veil, but its not unheard of to see this in some sideboards for those who want a mix of removal.

2-3 Disfigure - Same reason as in previous section.

1 Dismember - Same reason as in previous section.

2-3 Golgari Charm - One of the best sideboard cards Team America has access to. You will mostly use its first two modes, but the third can be put to good use sometimes.

1-2 Krosan Grip - Mostly an answer to Batterskull but can be used to good effect in other matchups.

2-3 Spell Pierce - For those times where you want more counter magic, which is usually against combo and control.

Sorceries

1 Hymn to Tourach - For those who want another Hymn in some matchups.

1-2 Thoughtseize - For those who want more spot discard postboard.

Misc.

1-2 Grafdigger's Cage - Your primary graveyard hate card with the added bonus of being phenomenal against Elves.

1 Null Rod - Even if this isn't vintage, there are still powerful artifacts you want to hate on.

1-2 Pithing Needle - A highly flexible hate card since there are many permanents with activated abilities being used.

1-2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor - This card is very helpful in grindy matchups where your mana base is not pressured too much like against blade decks and the mirror. It should also be noted that Jace helps out a lot in the miracles matchup, which can be tough for Team America sometimes.

1-2 Liliana of the Veil - Sometimes you want more Lilianas postboard.

1 Sylvan Library - This card is a very good singleton sb card as well. In some matchups it doesn't do enough so sometimes its just better to have it in the board to bring it in for those matchups you actually want it.


VI. General Strategic Guidlines

Here are some guildlines to keep in mind when playing Team America:

1. DEATHRITE SHAMAN IS KING: Turn one against an unknown opponent Deathrite Shaman is this deck's best first play. To quote Bob Huang: "I go Deathrite Shaman into Hymn to Tourach, discarding two lands, and crush him. Team America has so many broken openings like this one. Deathrite Shaman + Hymn to Tourach + Daze Wasteland Delver of Secrets is incredibly backbreaking against almost every deck in the format."

2. THIS IS NOT RUG DELVER: I mentioned earlier that this deck seeks to generate Tempo through a "Tapout" method. With traditional builds you are often better off trying to cast as many spells as possible in the early game. There exceptions to this though. For instance, it is best to play one threat at a time for the most part against miracles if you can afford to so that they don't get value out of Terminus.
.
3. DISRUPTION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THREATS MUCH OF THE TIME: There are times where the opening hands of this deck are either very threat heavy with no disruption and disruption heavy with no threats. Since this is legacy, heavy disruption hands are better in most situations than threat heavy hands. Interacting with your opponent is key in many games, especially against combo. Again though it's all dependent on the match up. In the dark though, I'm fine keeping a disruption heavy hand, especially if it has a cantrip or two. On the other hand I'm hesitant to keep a threat heavy hand in the dark because you will just be dead to any combo deck unless they brick really hard.


VII. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide

The purpose of this section is to give an idea what to do against decks considered Tier 1-1.5. Credit goes to Bob Huang for the sideboarding advice and some of the matchup analysis. Keep in mind that the sideboarding advice is just to give you an idea of how to sideboard with this deck and is influenced by Bob Huang's playstyle. You should really be sideboarding in response to how your opponent plays and what they do in postboard games. Also, keep in mind all matchup ratings apply to Game 1 only. Match ups may become favorable, even, or unfavorable postboard, in which case I will state how much better or worse a matchup becomes postboard.

First things first, the sideboarding advice refers to Lawrence Moo Young's Open winning list:

BUG Delver by Lawrence Moo Young
1st at SCG Legacy Open Orlando

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Liliana of the Veil

Instants (16)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries (8)

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Lands (20)

2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Here is the guide itself:

RUG Delver Favored

-4 FoW, -2 Hymn on play, - 2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Hymn on draw

+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

RUG is still alive and kicking. On the play you need to respect Stifle more. Some people like to keep to Force of Will on the draw so that you don't get too far behind. As long as you can establish your landbase and not die, you should be able to win since your have cards much more powerful than theirs.


UWR Delver Even

-1 Tombstalker, -4 FoW, -4 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana

This matchup can be pretty skill intensive. If neither side can successfully execute a one-sided blow out the game becomes really grindy. While TNN is something to respect, Stoneforge Mystic is usually more scary since they can often shut you down with an early Batterskull. This means it might be worth to hold back onto that one Abrupt Decay instead of killing that Delver if there's a chance they have Stoneforge in their hand. Also, since they play so much more removal than RUG, it might be better to play discard spells prior to playing threats in the early game.

ANT Favored

-2 Tombstalker, -1 Bayou, -3 Abrupt Decay

+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana

This matchup is pretty easy in my opinion as long as you know how their deck works. There's not too much to say here. Play a threat early and disrupt them as they get clocked. Hymn is a beast in this matchup since they need a critical mass of cards to go off. Play Golgari Charm over Abrupt Decay if you see Burning Wish since that makes it more likely that they have access to Empty the Warrens. Otherwise Abrupt Decay is better since it can kill LED.

Elves Unfavored

-1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -4 Hymn, -2 Liliana

+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Submerge

Ah Combo Elves. One of the most interesting and frustrating matchups. Game 1 you must focus on tempoing them out. Preboard you lack the tools to keep control of the board for long. Your flyers (Delver/ Tombstalker if you have them) are your best threats. Post board you get a little more wiggle room in your game plan but should still focus on closing the game out as soon as possible since Elves has the ability both to race us without comboing off and grind us out with their synergies. Postboard Natural Order for Craterhoof becomes more difficult since you have so much removal so you usually just have to keep them off Natural Order for Proggy or Glimpse.


EsperBlade Even or Unfavored

-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -4 FoW, -2 Tombstalker, -2 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

I find this matchup to be highly dependent on the list. Stock TNN lists are even in my opinion since we have ways to deal with/ race TNN. More traditional lists with Lingering Souls are more of a headache, turning the matchup into an unfavorable one preboard at least. Either way we are definitely the beat down. Try to get them to stumble with wasteland and Hymn. Don’t overextend into Supreme Verdict if you can afford to. Like the UWR matchup Stoneforge Mystic is more scary and usually is a must kill/counter on sight. Also, don’t let them resolve Jace. You’re going have a bad day if they do except in corner cases where you too far ahead for it to matter.

BUG Delver Even

-4 FoW, -1 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana

I find the mirror to be even like UWR Delver in which the die roll can heavily influence the outcome and games either end quickly via one-sided blowouts or after a long war of attrition where the person who can stick a threat the longest or generate an insurmountable advantage wins. Deathrite Shaman’s pretty important in the mirror and thus you should not let one stick. If your opponent has one and you don’t, it is easy to fall behind fast.

Sneak and Show Favored

-1 Bayou, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Abrupt Decay

+1 Liliana, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Golgari Charm

This matchup, to put it simply, is like any other combo matchup with a tempo deck: have disruption backed up by a clock. Preboard the business spells you have to prevent from resolving are Show and Tell and Sneak Attack. Postboard sneak and show players usually bring in more business in the form of some number of blood moons and through the breach. Blood Moon is the reason you want to consider bringing in a couple golgari charm or keep in some Abrupt Decay since your going to lose if that card resolves when you have little to no pressure on board. Even if you have some threats on board when they blood moon you you might still very well lose because you can't cast anything but force of will, which Sneak and Show can very well beat if that's all you have for disruption. Overall, the matchup is favorable for us, especially if they have no Leyline of Sanctity to bring post board.

Death and Taxes Unfavored

-4 FoW, -4 Daze, -2 Ponder

+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

This MU is usually bad preboard. Postboard it gets much better since you have all the removal in the world to kill all their stupid white creatures. I’m usually a fan of keeping Liliana and Hymn in even though it’s a risk with potential sb Wilt-Leaf Lieges. However, they have no card advantage so hymn and Liliana are brutal when they don’t have their lieges.

Death Blade Even

-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -4 Daze

+3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

Legacy’s premiere goodstuff deck. All advice for Esperblade pretty much applies here except Tombstalker is playable here since they have fewer Jaces usually and no Rest in Peace postboard.

Shardless BUG Unfavorable

-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -1 Abrupt Decay

+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Tar Pit, +1 Liliana

Hymn and wasteland are your best friends in this match up. You need to try and get them to stumble with those cards and other disruption since they will out value you in the long run if you don’t.

Miracles Even

-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Daze, -2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit

This matchup is about killing them as fast as you can without overextending into Terminus. However, with that said, know when it’s time to get all your dudes on the board for an alpha strike. Use your discard and Liliana to grind their hand down while also clocking them. Postboard you want to side in any permanent based hate or advantage generators like Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Sylvan Library, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, etc.


VIII. Other Successful Lists

BUG Delver
Greg Mitchell
1st Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/16/2014

Creatures (14)

1 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
1 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (25)

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse

BUG Delver
Javier Dominguez
1st Place at Grand Prix on 2/16/2014
Legacy


Creatures (14)

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (23)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hymn to Tourach

BUG Delver
Daniel Signorini
9th Place at Grand Prix on 11/17/2013
Legacy


Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Lands (20)

2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (26)

1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

IX. Helpful Articles
Rich Shay's SCG Columbus Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28737_Leaving-A-Legacy-Secrets-of-Delver.html)
Greg Mitchell's SCG Seattle Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28131_Leaving-A-Legacy-BUG-Delver-At-SCGSEA.html)
Bob Huang's SCG Baltimore Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27826_Leaving-a-Legacy-Team-America-in-SCGBalt.html)
Bob Huang's GP DC and SCG Providence Report (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/team-america-in-dc-top-16/)
The Old Primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread))

Shout out to Daniel Signorini, Bob Huang, and anyone else who was instrumental in making Team America what it is today. I'd also like to thank TheArchitect (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?30954-TheArchitect) for the banner above and Einherjer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?32365-Einherjer) for providing good points (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)/page183) for the miracles matchup analysis. And remember guys, the deck is called:

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx1/shrubs350/ab09e9bd-b349-4fcc-bbd8-19eb66099f8b_zps27785105.jpg
(Thank shrubs (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?36148-shrubs) for this one XD)

KobeBryan
04-07-2014, 10:25 PM
you better tell the mods cuz people still post in the old bant thread instead of the one i created.

Dragonslayer_90
04-07-2014, 11:13 PM
you better tell the mods cuz people still post in the old bant thread instead of the one i created.

I did. I specifically created this one for Zilla to swap it out with the old one. Zilla should be doing that within a day or so I assume.

Asthereal
04-08-2014, 05:32 AM
Question about the primer: the sideboard guide for Canadian Thresh tells me to side -2 Hymn, -2 Daze, -2 FoW on the draw. Why this split?
Do we really want the two Forces? Why keep two Dazes? Daze is bad late game, so I would say it's probably best to either play the full set and maximize our chances to have it early, or to cut them all and play a few Pierces instead, to try and protect our guys from removal. Is that wrong reasoning?

Dragonslayer_90
04-08-2014, 07:09 AM
Question about the primer: the sideboard guide for Canadian Thresh tells me to side -2 Hymn, -2 Daze, -2 FoW on the draw. Why this split?
Do we really want the two Forces? Why keep two Dazes? Daze is bad late game, so I would say it's probably best to either play the full set and maximize our chances to have it early, or to cut them all and play a few Pierces instead, to try and protect our guys from removal. Is that wrong reasoning?

You are not completely wrong in your reasoning. I think you have valid arguments to sideboard differently than the way I have listed. Keep in mind though that this advice was provided by Akatsuki a while ago in the old thread when he posted a sideboard guide and is thus influenced by his playstyle. I am not sure if I entirely agree with him myself but I will attempt to justify his choices anyways:

1. Having all Hymns out on the draw is understandable if you have better cards to bring in as it's at least recognizably less impactful on the draw even if not as bad as Daze on the draw.

2. Keeping two Dazes in on the draw I imagine is to both keep blue count up for those two Force of Wills and because in fair matchups it hits the things we care about most, which are creature based threats.

3. Keeping two Force of Will on the draw is not entirely unheard of. I've made that a regular practice against RUG since being on the draw against a deck with Stifle can hurt. So it's partly to not get blown out by stifle but also it's there to not fall too behind in general. I've been starting to keep two Force of Wills in on the draw against any Delver deck when I'm playing Team America. I find it can be a real life saver sometimes because Delver mirrors can be really swingy.

Unassigned
04-08-2014, 08:05 AM
Sneak and Show Unfavored

This is all I needed to see. MWAHAHA!!! :-P

Seriously though, nice write up, Sith. Very detailed and informative.

Asthereal
04-08-2014, 09:49 AM
@Dragonslayer: Thanks for the explanation! I guess it indeed depends a lot on style. And I'm not sure mine is the correct style. :wink:

@Unassigned: Sneak&Show isn't that bad if you play the full set of Pierces on side. I score about 50% against it right now, so maybe it's more like "even".

Esper3k
04-08-2014, 10:24 AM
I'm not a fan of keeping Dazes in vs RUG on the draw either. RUG wins by mana denial while attacking with efficient threats. 1) Daze is a card you want to see early. Trimming to just 2 is too wishy washy too me on top of massively decreasing your chances of seeing it when you need it most. 2) I hate setting myself back a land when you!'really already going to be under a good amount of pressure as well as making their taxing counters better.

I usually keep in 2-3 FoW on the draw and save it for Mongoose / Stifle. While I feel the matchup is actually unfavorable for us, if we stabilize at around 3 mana, our more powerful spells should be able to carry us to a win.

YamiJoey
04-08-2014, 10:43 AM
@Dragonslayer: Thanks for the explanation! I guess it indeed depends a lot on style. And I'm not sure mine is the correct style. :wink:

@Unassigned: Sneak&Show isn't that bad if you play the full set of Pierces on side. I score about 50% against it right now, so maybe it's more like "even".

You have skewed your sideboard plan and you're still about even with it. That makes it a bad MU as far as I can tell. ;)

An excellent piece. I'll read it more in depth throughout this evening. Thanks! :D

Asthereal
04-08-2014, 12:42 PM
You have skewed your sideboard plan
I didn't. I chose. Instead of playing 1x Envelop, 1x Fluster and 1-2x Pierce, I decided Pierce is overall the best and most versatile card, and I went for the full set. The main reason is that sitting on an Envelop sucks when the opponent plays Sneak Attack, Silence or whatever else Envelop doesn't hit. Fluster is already a bit more versatile, but it still doesn't hit enchantments or Planeswalkers.

Edit: my list for reference:

4 Deathrite, 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 2 Stalker
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Hymn, 4 Decay, 1 Sylvan, 1 Liliana
4 Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Tropical, 9 Fetch, 4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip

The second Sylvan on side is an unsure slot. Other options: a third Lily, a lone Submerge or Creeping Tar Pit or a fourth Disfigure. Thied the full set of Disfigures last weekend and sided them all in three out of five rounds, so I cannot say it was bad, but I'm not sold on it either.

Barbed Blightning
04-08-2014, 12:57 PM
I'm not a fan of keeping Dazes in vs RUG on the draw either. RUG wins by mana denial while attacking with efficient threats. 1) Daze is a card you want to see early. Trimming to just 2 is too wishy washy too me on top of massively decreasing your chances of seeing it when you need it most. 2) I hate setting myself back a land when you!'really already going to be under a good amount of pressure as well as making their taxing counters better.

I usually keep in 2-3 FoW on the draw and save it for Mongoose / Stifle. While I feel the matchup is actually unfavorable for us, if we stabilize at around 3 mana, our more powerful spells should be able to carry us to a win.

RUG always has an edge on other tempo decks because of stifle, but I still thing BUG has a solid edge against RUG thanks to said powerful spells.

Personally, I'd cut all counters for removal, including extra Lillys, and spell pierce.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Dragonslayer_90
04-08-2014, 01:26 PM
Thanks for all the compliments. I worked pretty hard on the primer. I have two comments on the discussions going around right now:

1. Sneak and Show is definitely at least even postboard for most configurations of Team America. But even then you might just die to one of their nutdraws without being able to really do anything. That's just the nature of the beast we have to fight against sometimes.

2. RUG, on the other hand, I find us to be favored simply because we have more powerful cards than them. I might be scared if I'm on the draw and they have a Turn One Delver, but really as long as you play tightly you should be able to beat them in the long run. Like any Delver mirror it can be swingy but tight play will often help you get there.

Esper3k
04-08-2014, 03:13 PM
It's weird. I always feel much more comfortable in the Sneaky Show matchup than in the RUG matchup. Sure, Sneaky Show's nut hands on the play are insane but we're just much more consistent than they are, especially post board.

Maybe the RUG players in my area are just much better than the Sneaky Show players?

KobeBryan
04-08-2014, 03:51 PM
RUG is a pain in the butt for TA. when they bring in submerge game 2 and then more, its gonna be annoying.

Asthereal
04-09-2014, 02:23 AM
Maybe the RUG players in my area are just much better than the Sneaky Show players?
This could be a thing. I have the same experience. :wink:

I lost a final against Canadian because that player was VERY good. The semis I won against Sneak&show quite easily (okay game 2 was over in 1 second: he went turn 1 Blood Moon and I had no Force. :rolleyes: But the other games were easy.)

toletole
04-09-2014, 07:44 AM
I think the only way to lose against RUG is with Stifle+Waste lock. If you play around that and take mulligans properly you should be OK, I mean they can't kill our Goyfs and can't deal with Tombstalker either, you should try to keep their Delvers "decayed" and protect your shamans if possible.

Asthereal
04-09-2014, 08:29 AM
I think the only way to lose against RUG is with Stifle+Waste lock. If you play around that and take mulligans properly you should be OK, I mean they can't kill our Goyfs and can't deal with Tombstalker either, you should try to keep their Delvers "decayed" and protect your shamans if possible.
I disagree. You can easily lose to their one-of True-Name Nemesis. Submerge on your Tombstalker is also a nuisance, and protecting Deathrite from their burn is almost impossible. In my opinion this matchup is still very loseable when you manage to get your lands into play.

Esper3k
04-09-2014, 08:54 AM
It's easy to just say "play around Stifle/Wasteland/Daxe" but in practice, you often just don't have good options. It's not like you're going to throw away a 2 land hand with DRS just to look for that 4 land hand.

As Asthereal said, Submerge is a real issue post board, especially on the Tombstalkers. Again, you can always say "don play a forest" but now you're significantly gimping your manabase and any experienced RUG player is saving their removal for DRS, not your Delvers.

toletole
04-09-2014, 09:11 AM
I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying you have enough tools to have a fair game if you manage to avoid Stifle+Waste lock. Lilianas, disfigures, decays, submerge, shamans, tombstalker... it's not like "hey they have submerge, we lose lol"

Sturtzilla
04-09-2014, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the updated primer, Sith! It was a good read. I wanted to post about my recent exploits with BUG Delver. I played in a SCG IQ over the weekend at Mr. Nice Guys in Monroeville, PA this past Saturday. I also played in my local legacy event last night at Kidforce Collectibles in Berea, OH. I Top 8ed the SCG IQ and won locals last night. Here is the decklist and a quick tournament report!

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
1 Disfigure
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Submerge
1 Force of Will

At the SCG IQ I played against the BUG Delver mirror (1-1-1), Dredge (2-0), Dredge (2-0), Lands (2-1) and was able to ID in the last round to secure 3rd place in the Top 8. I played Jund in the quaterfinals and lost (0-2). Flooded out both games in the Top 8. Sometimes that is how cards work. Deck felt very strong and well tuned. I also played a handful of games against a friend playing Hide Tide for fun and didn't drop a game in this testing.

At locals this week I played against Dredge (2-1), BUG Delver (2-1), Omnitell (2-1), and UWR Delver (2-1). I drew with my opponent in the last round to secure a 1st/2nd prize split but we played out the game for the experience. Preboard the match felt pretty even but post board I felt pretty advantaged. Just a fun sidenote: in Game 3 versus Omnitell, I had him at 6 life, with 1 card in hand due to a Liliana, which I had ultimated once splitting his lands. The Liliana was back up to 6 loyalty. My life was largely irrelevant as they just kill you and I had no cards in hand. Graveyards contained Land, Instant, Sorcery, and Enchantment. I draw a Delver of Secrets and consider my options. I played the Delver, ultimated Lili targeting myself, splitting my permanents, Delver vs. everything else. This put Planeswalker and Creature into the graveyard to make a 6 power Tarmogoyf... which was exactsies. So it was the first time I ever ulted her twice in once game and also the first time I ever targeted myself with the ult. Weird line but worth remembering.

Esper3k
04-09-2014, 10:00 AM
I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying you have enough tools to have a fair game if you manage to avoid Stifle+Waste lock. Lilianas, disfigures, decays, submerge, shamans, tombstalker... it's not like "hey they have submerge, we lose lol"

Sure, the trick is to get your mana online without dying / near death.

I think that's what most people here agree upon though. We feel fine if we get to about 3 mana without dying so our more powerful spells can take over the game. What the disagreement is on is how easy it is to do that.

Asthereal
04-09-2014, 10:35 AM
it's not like "hey they have submerge, we lose lol"
True, but let's face it: Canadian Thresh is a more streamlined deck than Team America. It'll draw better average hands, needs less resources to function properly and especially postboard it has all the stuff that makes our life hard (removal, fast threats, mana denial). Winnable matchup? Yes. Favourable matchup? I hardly think so.

Dragonslayer_90
04-09-2014, 10:53 AM
True, but let's face it: Canadian Thresh is a more streamlined deck than Team America. It'll draw better average hands, needs less resources to function properly and especially postboard it has all the stuff that makes our life hard (removal, fast threats, mana denial). Winnable matchup? Yes. Favourable matchup? I hardly think so.

More Streamlined? Yes. Winnable matchup? Agree. Favorable matchup? Maybe not I guess. My experience has been different though. I've never felt like an underdog against good RUG players. Even when I've lost to them most of the time it is due to some misplay I made and not because their deck is good enough against us for our play not to matter. Unlike Sneak and Show our play does carry a lot of weight in the matchup. Maybe it's not a favorable matchup but I don't think it's unfavorable either. I guess can get behind saying the matchup is at least even if not favorable then.

EDIT: Sturtz, I didn't know you also Top 8'ed the IQ over the weekend. Congrats buddy! Wish I could have came.

Sturtzilla
04-09-2014, 11:46 AM
EDIT: Sturtz, I didn't know you also Top 8'ed the IQ over the weekend. Congrats buddy! Wish I could have came.

There seems to be a Legacy IQ at that shop each month. I will make sure you know for the next couple.

As for the RUG and BUG debate, I agree that RUG is more streamlined but not necessarily more powerful. If they can keep us off of land it is a bad situation. However if you keep hands with a couple lands and a Deathrite, their mana denial package is not so good. They have to prioritize killing Shaman or we get to manage the graveyards while also gaining access to life and mana to play around soft counters. That said we have a much stronger mid and late game. It really comes down to navigating to that point. I think in most delver match ups, you want to prioritize killing delvers. Abrupt Decay is good at this but slower than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Very often the 3-6 damage difference between a one mana piece of removal and a Decay really makes the difference. I advocate trying out a Disfigure or two if you can work them into your lists.

Purgatory
04-09-2014, 11:52 AM
Great work on the new primer, Dragonslayer_90! Thanks for taking the time to write it up :)

toletole
04-09-2014, 12:03 PM
There seems to be a Legacy IQ at that shop each month. I will make sure you know for the next couple.

As for the RUG and BUG debate, I agree that RUG is more streamlined but not necessarily more powerful. If they can keep us off of land it is a bad situation. However if you keep hands with a couple lands and a Deathrite, their mana denial package is not so good. They have to prioritize killing Shaman or we get to manage the graveyards while also gaining access to life and mana to play around soft counters. That said we have a much stronger mid and late game. It really comes down to navigating to that point. I think in most delver match ups, you want to prioritize killing delvers. Abrupt Decay is good at this but slower than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Very often the 3-6 damage difference between a one mana piece of removal and a Decay really makes the difference. I advocate trying out a Disfigure or two if you can work them into your lists.

I agree.
I'm playing 1 Disfigure main, and one more in the SB.

For reference this is my list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

3 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

Side:

1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Graffdiger's Cage
1 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
2 Submerge

Dragonslayer_90
04-09-2014, 12:08 PM
As for the RUG and BUG debate, I agree that RUG is more streamlined but not necessarily more powerful. If they can keep us off of land it is a bad situation. However if you keep hands with a couple lands and a Deathrite, their mana denial package is not so good. They have to prioritize killing Shaman or we get to manage the graveyards while also gaining access to life and mana to play around soft counters. That said we have a much stronger mid and late game. It really comes down to navigating to that point. I think in most delver match ups, you want to prioritize killing delvers. Abrupt Decay is good at this but slower than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Very often the 3-6 damage difference between a one mana piece of removal and a Decay really makes the difference. I advocate trying out a Disfigure or two if you can work them into your lists.

I concur. Couldn't have said it better myself.


By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? I got ran over by it last night at my LGS in the first round, which was my only loss the whole night so I finished 3-1. I've played it a little here and there but not enough to feel comfortable with it really. It seems pretty bad preboard since we lack the tools to control the board against Goblins. It seems like the only way to win preboard is to have an aggressive tempo opener with either turn one deathrite or delver, preferably on the play as well. Post board it seems more manageable but can still be bad. I think I might go back up to three golgari charms. Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?

Griselpuff
04-09-2014, 01:20 PM
Vs vial decks I like ignoring vial boarding out counters and focusing on hymn plus removal

Barbed Blightning
04-09-2014, 01:48 PM
I concur. Couldn't have said it better myself.


By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? I got ran over by it last night at my LGS in the first round, which was my only loss the whole night so I finished 3-1. I've played it a little here and there but not enough to feel comfortable with it really. It seems pretty bad preboard since we lack the tools to control the board against Goblins. It seems like the only way to win preboard is to have an aggressive tempo opener with either turn one deathrite or delver, preferably on the play as well. Post board it seems more manageable but can still be bad. I think I might go back up to three golgari charms. Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?

Goyf, Tombstalker and DRS are king, and cheap removal > plague, especially since they tend to tutor up Chieftain over Warchief against black.

I agree, ignore vial; just control the board and slow their explosive style

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Sturtzilla
04-09-2014, 02:04 PM
By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?

I think preboard we have to assume the tempo role. Taking out their lands and attacking their hand, while playing your own threats. This should bottleneck what they can play as well as give you the heads up on how to sequence. You don't want them to resolve something like Krenko, Mob Boss, as we can't Abrupt Decay it or Disfigure it. I think Plague is a fine idea in the board in general. I moved away from it recently but if there is more Tribal in your (our...) LGS, then it might warrant it. Not to mention Plague is good versus TNN decks, Death and Taxes, and the occasional Echantress deck.



Vs vial decks I like ignoring vial boarding out counters and focusing on hymn plus removal

I agree. I like attacking the hand. By doing so you are making them play off of the top of their deck and it takes away some Value from Vial.

wwoning
04-09-2014, 03:43 PM
By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? I got ran over by it last night at my LGS in the first round, which was my only loss the whole night so I finished 3-1. I've played it a little here and there but not enough to feel comfortable with it really. It seems pretty bad preboard since we lack the tools to control the board against Goblins. It seems like the only way to win preboard is to have an aggressive tempo opener with either turn one deathrite or delver, preferably on the play as well. Post board it seems more manageable but can still be bad. I think I might go back up to three golgari charms. Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?
Good friend of mine plays Goblins. My experience is that games really can go both ways. A key point in our games is always the resolving of a Ringleader. If they hit a lot, the game swings their way, if not it´s game very quickly (especially if you hymned them before, which is a bomb against them). Boarding is really easy for me, - 4 Daze, - 3 FoW (i only play three because of Bob) and + 2 Disfigure + 3 Charm + Null Rod + Clique (in response to Matron into Ringleader). DRS is indeed great as always to create early and heavy pressure, but always gets Tarfired/ Gempalmed. Goyf and TS are threats they cannot handle in any way, except maybe for a big gempalm or blasting it with SGC tokens.

sawatarix
04-10-2014, 02:40 AM
Goblins try to play the control game against any kind of delver decks.
The longer the game goes the more they are going to win in my experience because you cant beat 4 matrons 4 ringleader and the big dudes aka commander and krenko during g1.
Discard helps as well as a ton of removal spells.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Asthereal
04-10-2014, 05:18 AM
I encountered Goblins during my last tourney, and I managed to stall game 3 long enough to get the draw, but he had Krenko out, which was always going to kill me in the long run. Krenko is a big issue, because we have no proper way of dealing with it. Charm plus Disfigure is the only way, really. I felt the only way to win this matchup was to get an early Delver or Stalker out, while using Hymn to deprive him of goblins in hand and removal to kill the guys on the board. Pure tempo/aggrocontrol play. Hymn also helps negate the effect of a Ringleader.

The difference in this matchup between being on the play and being on the draw is massive. Liliana for instance is pretty bad if it enters the battlefield too late, because her removal ability will hit irrelevant guys all the time. Half the goblin army is expendable anyway. But if Lily enters on turn 2-3 on the play, she'll hit the first goblin that enters the field, which in turn allows you to untap, tick her one up and drop a blocker or cast removal on the second goblin that comes in. This allows Lily to use her removal ability twice. Also Daze on the play is fine against goblins, but on the draw it's absolutely unusable. On the play we can actually play a fine tempo game and win easily. On the draw we need quite a bit of luck to keep the green guys at bay.

order
04-10-2014, 05:25 PM
About the first game, i think the secret against goblins is not being afraid of mulligan.

I always mulligan hands like this:
fetch fetch brainstorm ponder fow daze ponder.

Its a nice hand, but we need to be the aggressor in this match.

For me, this is the perfect hand against them:

shaman, hymn, goyf, abrupt, delver, 2 lands.

t1 - shaman
t2 - goyf + delver
t3 - hymn + abrupt the vial =)

The Atog Lord
04-10-2014, 07:08 PM
In my experience, the BUG matchup against RUG is quite favorable. However, I think the fact that the primer advocates cutting two Hymns indicates that my understanding of the matchup is quite different from that of the primer's author. RUG is an excellent aggressive deck, and so the BUG deck is cast into the control role. BUG is forced to establish its manabase, while using its removal spells to halt the initial rush of the RUG player.

BUG has 24 total mana sources, while RUG has only 18. That's a huge difference, meaning that the RUG player's one-for-one Wastelands aren't very exciting. At the same time, while RUG has no good means of removing Tarmogoyf maindeck, BUG has a set of Abrupt Decay as well as Lili. Lili is a crucial card in this matchup, and I play three. Likewise, while RUG has no means of generating card advantage beyond a well-placed Fire, BUG has Lili, Bob, and Hymn. Hymn is extremely important in this matchup. RUG has no extra land; a resolved Hymn against RUG is almost guaranteed to hit two relevant cards.

My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65172

With that list, I cut 3 Force and 2 (Thoughtseize/Daze depending on play or draw) for 2 Disfigure, 2 Submerge, and 1 Clique.

Rich

Dragonslayer_90
04-11-2014, 09:58 AM
In my experience, the BUG matchup against RUG is quite favorable. However, I think the fact that the primer advocates cutting two Hymns indicates that my understanding of the matchup is quite different from that of the primer's author. RUG is an excellent aggressive deck, and so the BUG deck is cast into the control role. BUG is forced to establish its manabase, while using its removal spells to halt the initial rush of the RUG player.

BUG has 24 total mana sources, while RUG has only 18. That's a huge difference, meaning that the RUG player's one-for-one Wastelands aren't very exciting. At the same time, while RUG has no good means of removing Tarmogoyf maindeck, BUG has a set of Abrupt Decay as well as Lili. Lili is a crucial card in this matchup, and I play three. Likewise, while RUG has no means of generating card advantage beyond a well-placed Fire, BUG has Lili, Bob, and Hymn. Hymn is extremely important in this matchup. RUG has no extra land; a resolved Hymn against RUG is almost guaranteed to hit two relevant cards.

My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65172

With that list, I cut 3 Force and 2 (Thoughtseize/Daze depending on play or draw) for 2 Disfigure, 2 Submerge, and 1 Clique.

Rich

I agree that most of the time Team America plays the control role against RUG, though on the play if we have an aggressive opener we might be able put RUG on the backpedal. The trimming of the Hymns in postboard games is a matter of: 1. Having less two drops 2. Having less cards that get worse as the game goes into the mid and late game. However, I see where you are coming from Atog, and I think the way you play the matchup is fine (maybe even better than the approach I described though I can't say for sure without testing).

Griselpuff
04-13-2014, 07:12 PM
Personally, I think I would board out all my hymns now. It's not good when you're behind and doesn't affect the board. You're usually on the back foot. Although we play 24 mana sources to their 18, they have stifle and bolt so I think mana development is actually pretty close. I like counters more because the most common way to lose is to get mana screwed.

Esper3k
04-13-2014, 08:43 PM
Drawing into t8 @SCG DFW.

Barbed Blightning
04-13-2014, 09:36 PM
Drawing into t8 @SCG DFW.

Good Luck!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

btm10
04-13-2014, 09:54 PM
Drawing into t8 @SCG DFW.

Great!

Esper3k
04-13-2014, 11:50 PM
I know, I know - it was atrocious!

KobeBryan
04-14-2014, 12:08 AM
play some null rods, creeping tarpits and krosan grips

Razorwynd
04-14-2014, 12:12 AM
I know, I know - it was atrocious!

is it worth watching any replays?

sdematt
04-14-2014, 12:37 PM
is it worth watching any replays?

He played like anyone would after 8-9 rounds of solid Legacy. You make mistakes and you forget to see lines. It happens. Jeff, your poker face, I've heard, is one of the best. Great job, and congrats on winning some money so you can stop playing with WB dual lands #pimp problems

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
04-14-2014, 12:40 PM
He played like anyone would after 8-9 rounds of solid Legacy. You make mistakes and you forget to see lines. It happens. Jeff, your poker face, I've heard, is one of the best. Great job, and congrats on winning some money so you can stop playing with WB dual lands #pimp problems

-Matt

+1. The way I see it, you make top 8 and you have basically won already; the rest is just a bonus round to see how many coins you can collect

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

phazonmutant
04-14-2014, 01:03 PM
+1. The way I see it, you make top 8 and you have basically won already; the rest is just a bonus round to see how many coins you can collect

That's not a winner's mentality. I can assure you that the people I've played against in elimination rounds with that thought process tend to lose. Winning is the goal, period. Doing anything less should only feel good in retrospect.


He played like anyone would after 8-9 rounds of solid Legacy. You make mistakes and you forget to see lines. It happens. Jeff, your poker face, I've heard, is one of the best. Great job, and congrats on winning some money so you can stop playing with WB dual lands #pimp problems

-Matt

Understandable, but just means that it's something to work on. I know that I'm weak in this area too - made a ton of mistakes in the first game of my finals. Seconded on fixing the WB duals!


I know, I know - it was atrocious!

Congrats on the top 8! But yeah...it's good that you're not trying to delude yourself.

I wanted to talk about the Miracles board plan. It seems that my plan is a bit different from what I've seen on camera at GP Paris and in Dallas.
- I feel like Thoughtseize is awful in this matchup. The only possible way it could be good is what happened game 2 - you played Thoughtseize turn 1, took his Top, and he didn't draw another and had a greedy keep. That's so many things that had to go right - both of you have it in your opener, you had to be on the play. Every other time you cast Thoughtseize in the match, it did nothing. Their spells are redundant besides Top and they play off the top well.
- I'm not sure if I saw you bring in Golgari Charm, but I've seen others. That card is really marginal. You don't want to have a reactive anti-enchantment card rotting in your hand when they don't have enchantments, and Miracles is about 50% to board out the enchantments anyway. You can deal with pesky creatures like Clique with Decay if really necessary.

I did like that you kept in Force. Their deck has so few relevant spells - Jace, Entreat, conditionally Terminus or Swords - and the battle isn't really about card advantage. They'll win that fight. It's about lands in play and board presence vs. life total.

One thing that I'm torn on is Daze. I've been boarding all of them out play and draw because they can get out of range and play around it so easily. What do you guys think? Maybe 1-2 just to surprise them on the play?


About the BUG vs. RUG debate:
I've always felt that RUG is 55%, maybe more in our favor. We're trying to play lands and cast spells, so of course they can beat us sometimes. However, we have a low curve (compared to non-Delver decks), plenty of mana sources once Deathrite gets online, ways to manage their threats (DRS, Decay), and better 2-for-1s (Hymn, Lili). I don't like leaving in Daze on the draw because going down a land is such a real cost in this matchup. Hymn is slow too, so you probably don't want more than 2 on the draw. On the play it's ok to bring in a couple Dazes (although still not excited about them) and Hymns, probably cutting Forces.

Barbed Blightning
04-14-2014, 01:15 PM
That's not a winner's mentality. I can assure you that the people I've played against in elimination rounds with that thought process tend to lose. Winning is the goal, period. Doing anything less should only feel good in retrospect.



Understandable, but just means that it's something to work on. I know that I'm weak in this area too - made a ton of mistakes in the first game of my finals. Seconded on fixing the WB duals!



Congrats on the top 8! But yeah...it's good that you're not trying to delude yourself.

I wanted to talk about the Miracles board plan. It seems that my plan is a bit different from what I've seen on camera at GP Paris and in Dallas.
- I feel like Thoughtseize is awful in this matchup. The only possible way it could be good is what happened game 2 - you played Thoughtseize turn 1, took his Top, and he didn't draw another and had a greedy keep. That's so many things that had to go right - both of you have it in your opener, you had to be on the play. Every other time you cast Thoughtseize in the match, it did nothing. Their spells are redundant besides Top and they play off the top well.
- I'm not sure if I saw you bring in Golgari Charm, but I've seen others. That card is really marginal. You don't want to have a reactive anti-enchantment card rotting in your hand when they don't have enchantments, and Miracles is about 50% to board out the enchantments anyway. You can deal with pesky creatures like Clique with Decay if really necessary.

I did like that you kept in Force. Their deck has so few relevant spells - Jace, Entreat, conditionally Terminus or Swords - and the battle isn't really about card advantage. They'll win that fight. It's about lands in play and board presence vs. life total.

One thing that I'm torn on is Daze. I've been boarding all of them out play and draw because they can get out of range and play around it so easily. What do you guys think? Maybe 1-2 just to surprise them on the play?


About the BUG vs. RUG debate:
I've always felt that RUG is 55%, maybe more in our favor. We're trying to play lands and cast spells, so of course they can beat us sometimes. However, we have a low curve (compared to non-Delver decks), plenty of mana sources once Deathrite gets online, ways to manage their threats (DRS, Decay), and better 2-for-1s (Hymn, Lili). I don't like leaving in Daze on the draw because going down a land is such a real cost in this matchup. Hymn is slow too, so you probably don't want more than 2 on the draw. On the play it's ok to bring in a couple Dazes (although still not excited about them) and Hymns, probably cutting Forces.

Whatever, bro

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Esper3k
04-14-2014, 01:37 PM
He played like anyone would after 8-9 rounds of solid Legacy. You make mistakes and you forget to see lines. It happens. Jeff, your poker face, I've heard, is one of the best. Great job, and congrats on winning some money so you can stop playing with WB dual lands #pimp problems

-Matt

Thanks, Matt! I've finished foiling what I can (I'm still waiting on my foil altered Lilianas to get back from Steve Argyle so I can replace that gross one I have to use in the SB!) and now I can focus on the lands again. Man, those Seas are going to kill me...


+1. The way I see it, you make top 8 and you have basically won already; the rest is just a bonus round to see how many coins you can collect

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Hah, I was just happy to be there and it may not be the best mentality, but I snap signed the "Split the prize in the T8" form when I found out I was paired against Joe Lossett :)


That's not a winner's mentality. I can assure you that the people I've played against in elimination rounds with that thought process tend to lose. Winning is the goal, period. Doing anything less should only feel good in retrospect.



Understandable, but just means that it's something to work on. I know that I'm weak in this area too - made a ton of mistakes in the first game of my finals. Seconded on fixing the WB duals!



Congrats on the top 8! But yeah...it's good that you're not trying to delude yourself.

I wanted to talk about the Miracles board plan. It seems that my plan is a bit different from what I've seen on camera at GP Paris and in Dallas.
- I feel like Thoughtseize is awful in this matchup. The only possible way it could be good is what happened game 2 - you played Thoughtseize turn 1, took his Top, and he didn't draw another and had a greedy keep. That's so many things that had to go right - both of you have it in your opener, you had to be on the play. Every other time you cast Thoughtseize in the match, it did nothing. Their spells are redundant besides Top and they play off the top well.
- I'm not sure if I saw you bring in Golgari Charm, but I've seen others. That card is really marginal. You don't want to have a reactive anti-enchantment card rotting in your hand when they don't have enchantments, and Miracles is about 50% to board out the enchantments anyway. You can deal with pesky creatures like Clique with Decay if really necessary.

I did like that you kept in Force. Their deck has so few relevant spells - Jace, Entreat, conditionally Terminus or Swords - and the battle isn't really about card advantage. They'll win that fight. It's about lands in play and board presence vs. life total.

One thing that I'm torn on is Daze. I've been boarding all of them out play and draw because they can get out of range and play around it so easily. What do you guys think? Maybe 1-2 just to surprise them on the play?


About the BUG vs. RUG debate:
I've always felt that RUG is 55%, maybe more in our favor. We're trying to play lands and cast spells, so of course they can beat us sometimes. However, we have a low curve (compared to non-Delver decks), plenty of mana sources once Deathrite gets online, ways to manage their threats (DRS, Decay), and better 2-for-1s (Hymn, Lili). I don't like leaving in Daze on the draw because going down a land is such a real cost in this matchup. Hymn is slow too, so you probably don't want more than 2 on the draw. On the play it's ok to bring in a couple Dazes (although still not excited about them) and Hymns, probably cutting Forces.

Thanks! I know that I'm in no way an expert on this and I still see myself making mistakes with the deck, so I have plenty more room to grow before I'll feel like I can actually play the deck well (but that's one of the powerful things about the deck - that when played optimally, it's such a beast!).

Re: Miracles - In the T8, I boarded: -2 Disfigure, -2 Abrupt Decay, -4 Daze, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Envelop, +1 Force of Will, +1 Surgical Extraction

Here was my thought process: Because I got to see his decklist, I knew there were 2 Supreme Verdicts in the side. From speaking with /reading up on Miracles, it seems like what is getting more popular is the idea of boarding out the Counterbalances to try and blank our Abrupt Decays. I think they have to bring in RIP though because of simply how powerful it is against Goyf and DRS. Golgari Charm protects our guys both from Verdict and kills RIP, thus I brought in Golgari Charms for ADs since I suspected he would bring out CBs (which my Surgical in G3 did confirm my suspicions). The Surgical has been something I've been trying against Miracles. You can use it to screw with their Tops when they pop it to Miracle and if you can get a Terminus with it, you're in great shape, imo (I really wanted to catch Terminus or Entreat, but was fine reducing value of SCM and getting rid of the other StP). I'm curious to hear discussion on that though. I didn't bring in the Spell Pierces because I simply have not had good experiences with it in the past although maybe I should've brought them in over the Thoughtseizes?

I brought all the Dazes out for the exact reason you mentioned - they so easily get their mana online and can fairly easily play around it. It's also particularly bad against Terminus, which I feel is the second key spell in the matchup (first one being Top). I'm not a fan of the 1-2 plan because I believe Daze gets the most value early, so having 1-2 just means we have fairly low odds of seeing it when it's most optimal but we still have it in there to draw late when it's terrible.

While Top is just insane against our hand disruption, I still like Thoughtseize for information and to take a critical spell they might be holding. Getting a Supreme Verdict or a Jace (and of course taking the Top on T1 when you're on the play) is huge and gives you an idea of how far you need to extend into the board or not. Just my thoughts on it though. Most of my Thoughtseizes came late when they had much less value, and of course the early one was nuts because both of us kept super greedy hands.

Esper3k
04-14-2014, 01:56 PM
Also, I'm always looking for input on my plays / mistakes, so I'd welcome any thoughts on my plays in the T8. I do believe that I massively screwed up the first Liliana in G3. I should've just held the Delver back to block SCM and +1'd her to strip away the Supreme Verdict I knew was in his hand. The knowledge of that there really affected how I had to play the rest of the game since I had to try not to get wrecked by it.

KobeBryan
04-14-2014, 03:31 PM
Also, I'm always looking for input on my plays / mistakes, so I'd welcome any thoughts on my plays in the T8. I do believe that I massively screwed up the first Liliana in G3. I should've just held the Delver back to block SCM and +1'd her to strip away the Supreme Verdict I knew was in his hand. The knowledge of that there really affected how I had to play the rest of the game since I had to try not to get wrecked by it.

You really didn't make huge misplays. I think you didn't have to use the surgical on the plow though because there are just more important stuff for you to surgical I n stead of that.

When I played bant. I consistently beat miracles because I had a steady stream of creatures and never laid more than one at a time. All the counters were to stop win cons. And I just let my creatures die. Granted. I never played lossett with bant nor does TA have as many creatures as bant

Water_Wizard
04-14-2014, 05:40 PM
I played Joe L. on Saturday on MTGO. He played Miracles and I played BUG. I lost 2-0.

First, Joe is a good player. He knows the lines. Plays lands, addresses threats, wait for an opportune moment and drops Jace. Jace is a real issue for BUG, because outside of Maelstrom Pulse (which nobody runs), V. Clique is our only way to deal with it (and Joe runs 3 Cliques of his own and 2 Karakas).

Given the current configuration, I would board out Abrupt Decay and Daze on the draw. I would consider keeping in Daze on the play just to support the tempo. Our best bet is to win the game by turn 7-8 - play aggressively and eek out a win with creatures and disruption.

If Miracles is a real issue, then we will need to reconfigure the sideboard with some number of Sinkhole, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, etc.

KobeBryan
04-14-2014, 10:04 PM
I played Joe L. on Saturday on MTGO. He played Miracles and I played BUG. I lost 2-0.

First, Joe is a good player. He knows the lines. Plays lands, addresses threats, wait for an opportune moment and drops Jace. Jace is a real issue for BUG, because outside of Maelstrom Pulse (which nobody runs), V. Clique is our only way to deal with it (and Joe runs 3 Cliques of his own and 2 Karakas).

Given the current configuration, I would board out Abrupt Decay and Daze on the draw. I would consider keeping in Daze on the play just to support the tempo. Our best bet is to win the game by turn 7-8 - play aggressively and eek out a win with creatures and disruption.

If Miracles is a real issue, then we will need to reconfigure the sideboard with some number of Sinkhole, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, etc.

Problem is when you play sinkhole, you need close to a playset in the side. With winter orb, you gotta play 2.

Megadeus
04-14-2014, 10:07 PM
I feel like a lot of decks could get away with a MB Sylvan already, and Winter Orb seems good. Sinkhole being significantly worse on the draw seems like an issue.

Water_Wizard
04-15-2014, 01:24 AM
VS. Miracles, Stifle might be our best card because it stops mana development, card selection, and miracle triggers (plus is decent versus other match ups).

phazonmutant
04-15-2014, 03:33 AM
Thanks! I know that I'm in no way an expert on this and I still see myself making mistakes with the deck, so I have plenty more room to grow before I'll feel like I can actually play the deck well (but that's one of the powerful things about the deck - that when played optimally, it's such a beast!).

Re: Miracles - In the T8, I boarded: -2 Disfigure, -2 Abrupt Decay, -4 Daze, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Envelop, +1 Force of Will, +1 Surgical Extraction

Here was my thought process: Because I got to see his decklist, I knew there were 2 Supreme Verdicts in the side. From speaking with /reading up on Miracles, it seems like what is getting more popular is the idea of boarding out the Counterbalances to try and blank our Abrupt Decays. I think they have to bring in RIP though because of simply how powerful it is against Goyf and DRS. Golgari Charm protects our guys both from Verdict and kills RIP, thus I brought in Golgari Charms for ADs since I suspected he would bring out CBs (which my Surgical in G3 did confirm my suspicions). The Surgical has been something I've been trying against Miracles. You can use it to screw with their Tops when they pop it to Miracle and if you can get a ,Terminus with it, you're in great shape, imo (I really wanted to catch Terminus or Entreat, but was fine reducing value of SCM and getting rid of the other StP). I'm curious to hear discussion on that though. I didn't bring in the Spell Pierces because I simply have not had good experiences with it in the past although maybe I should've brought them in over the Thoughtseizes?

I brought all the Dazes out for the exact reason you mentioned - they so easily get their mana online and can fairly easily play around it. It's also particularly bad against Terminus, which I feel is the second key spell in the matchup (first one being Top). I'm not a fan of the 1-2 plan because I believe Daze gets the most value early, so having 1-2 just means we have fairly low odds of seeing it when it's most optimal but we still have it in there to draw late when it's terrible.

While Top is just insane against our hand disruption, I still like Thoughtseize for information and to take a critical spell they might be holding. Getting a Supreme Verdict or a Jace (and of course taking the Top on T1 when you're on the play) is huge and gives you an idea of how far you need to extend into the board or not. Just my thoughts on it though. Most of my Thoughtseizes came late when they had much less value, and of course the early one was nuts because both of us kept super greedy hands.

I feel like I may have been too harsh - top 8'ing is a great accomplishment and you definitely played well. I appreciate your attitude that there's always room for improvement, I try to keep that perspective too. Magic is a hard game, no one plays it perfectly.

Interesting to hear your thought process on boarding against Miracles. I haven't really played against players with multiple Verdicts, so your Golgari Charms make a lot more sense. As long as you're not clogging your deck with a bunch of reactive cards (Charm and Decay), I can definitely get behind it. We had a pretty good discussion with the Miracles guys about Surgical in the matchup and I believe the conclusion was that it can sometimes do work but for the most part isn't worth discarding a card. You can mess up their Tops a little, but you have to have it at exactly the right time. Again, don't want to have too many reactive cards.

About Pierce vs. Thoughtseize - they can always float Jace or Entreat with Top, so Pierce is much better. Once the game goes past about turn 3 or 4, you have to willing to Pierce pretty much anything, but you can usually at least trade it for a card. That's the worst case. The best case is that they jam a bomb into your Pierce (hopefully while you have a guy in play) and you get to counter it for much less mana than they spent.

Also, just played against Miracles again tonight, still haven't dropped a game in like 4 matches. I've definitely gotten a bit lucky, but I seriously think that this matchup can be improved tremendously with testing. As far as tournament EV vs. time expenditure, testing against Miracles seems very favorable.

Esper3k
04-15-2014, 08:00 AM
I feel like I may have been too harsh - top 8'ing is a great accomplishment and you definitely played well. I appreciate your attitude that there's always room for improvement, I try to keep that perspective too. Magic is a hard game, no one plays it perfectly.

Interesting to hear your thought process on boarding against Miracles. I haven't really played against players with multiple Verdicts, so your Golgari Charms make a lot more sense. As long as you're not clogging your deck with a bunch of reactive cards (Charm and Decay), I can definitely get behind it. We had a pretty good discussion with the Miracles guys about Surgical in the matchup and I believe the conclusion was that it can sometimes do work but for the most part isn't worth discarding a card. You can mess up their Tops a little, but you have to have it at exactly the right time. Again, don't want to have too many reactive cards.

About Pierce vs. Thoughtseize - they can always float Jace or Entreat with Top, so Pierce is much better. Once the game goes past about turn 3 or 4, you have to willing to Pierce pretty much anything, but you can usually at least trade it for a card. That's the worst case. The best case is that they jam a bomb into your Pierce (hopefully while you have a guy in play) and you get to counter it for much less mana than they spent.

Also, just played against Miracles again tonight, still haven't dropped a game in like 4 matches. I've definitely gotten a bit lucky, but I seriously think that this matchup can be improved tremendously with testing. As far as tournament EV vs. time expenditure, testing against Miracles seems very favorable.

Thanks! Yeah I haven't dropped a match to Miracles in awhile before this but I definitely believe none of the Miracles players I had played were nearly of the caliber of Joe, so that made a huge difference.

Re: Golgari Charm - I agree on not wanting it while keeping in all the AD. I only brought it in to replace AD if I'm expecting them boarding out CB + having Supreme Verdict. Joe's multiple Verdicts made that decision even easier for me.

My maindeck is also a little more geared towards control with the 19 lands, TNNs, and the maindeck Sylvan so I feel a little more comfortable there as well.

Myelectronicdays
04-15-2014, 11:02 AM
I like having the maindeck sylvan as well. I seem to miss that card more than regret having it in if i ever take it out.

I still love the idea of running 4 sinkholes.. i wish it just fit in better.
At this point they would be pretty unexpected atleast. I find that this deck is so tight (which i love), its hard to even get them in on the play.

also great run esper.. loved watching you play the deck. nicely done!

Esper3k
04-15-2014, 11:21 AM
I like having the maindeck sylvan as well. I seem to miss that card more than regret having it in if i ever take it out.

I still love the idea of running 4 sinkholes.. i wish it just fit in better.
At this point they would be pretty unexpected atleast. I find that this deck is so tight (which i love), its hard to even get them in on the play.

also great run esper.. loved watching you play the deck. nicely done!

Sylvan Library was insane for me. I don't think I lost a game all weekend when I resolved it. It also won me a game when I mulled to 4. I'm pretty greedy so I had cut the 20th land in the main for it, but I've been loving it so far. With it feeling like we're seeing less TNNs (I mean they're still out there but it's not like the flood a few months ago, at least by my perception), and TNN making me already have a glut of 3 drops main, I think just 1 Liliana in the main is fine.

I'm out of town right now (gotta love those drive 4 hours back home after the tournament, get home at 2:30, wake up, drive 3 hours to another city days) but I'll post up a tournament report if I have time when I get home later on today.

I was rocking the Source playmat when I could too!

Esper3k
04-15-2014, 11:31 AM
I'd also practice the UWR Delver and Deathblade matchups quite a bit as well. Seriously, it felt like all I played during the Swiss was some form of SFM deck. I'm lucky in that I feel like I've played those fairly often (especially Deathblade) and knew how to approach and sideboard (at least I found a strategy that has been working for me).

KobeBryan
04-15-2014, 11:38 AM
Sylvan Library was insane for me. I don't think I lost a game all weekend when I resolved it. It also won me a game when I mulled to 4. I'm pretty greedy so I had cut the 20th land in the main for it, but I've been loving it so far. With it feeling like we're seeing less TNNs (I mean they're still out there but it's not like the flood a few months ago, at least by my perception), and TNN making me already have a glut of 3 drops main, I think just 1 Liliana in the main is fine.

I'm out of town right now (gotta love those drive 4 hours back home after the tournament, get home at 2:30, wake up, drive 3 hours to another city days) but I'll post up a tournament report if I have time when I get home later on today.

I was rocking the Source playmat when I could too!

I want to know how you feel about the 19 lands. Has it been a problem against tempo decks.

Esper3k
04-15-2014, 11:55 AM
I want to know how you feel about the 19 lands. Has it been a problem against tempo decks.

Against the heavy Wasteland decks, it hurts some, but you still have 23 mana sources. RUG is still rough because of Stifle + Wasteland.

I'm still happy with it because I was finding in most matchups I was playing, I was boarding out a land quite a bit (per Akatsuki's sideboarding guide) so I basically decided to just play 19 lands to preboard against those decks. The maindeck Sylvan I can play because of it can usually find you plenty of lands if you need it too.

Basically, against any deck that aggressively attacks your manabase, you want the 20 lands, but against anything that doesn't molest your manabase, 19 lands is fine.

exallium
04-15-2014, 12:01 PM
I want to know how you feel about the 19 lands. Has it been a problem against tempo decks.

I feel like 20 lands is almost a necessity if you are running liliana.

As for the Miracles matchup, Winter Orb is amazing. The only real answer besides countermagic is Wear // Tear (or just doing nothing), and red mana is very scarce in the deck as it is (For example, Joe's list runs 2, one of which dies to wasteland.) I think with the rise of Miracles (and with the few lands decks I keep seeing in my meta), 2 winter orb in the board seems pretty great.

Vendilion Clique is very good as well. It doesn't need to stick to get the trigger to resolve, and can snipe miracle cards out of the player's hands as they are drawn (in res to miracles trigger).

Stifle is interesting. I've seen some recent IQ lists running MD stifles, and honestly, I don't care much for it, as it doesn't seem to fit with the plan the rest of the deck is going for. They are very good against Miracles, but at the same time I feel like stifle needs to be a part of your plan in order to run it. In the sideboard you really only bring it in to delay things. No one is boarding in stifle vs. vendilion clique.

Myelectronicdays
04-15-2014, 04:03 PM
I still wish it was reasonable to have like 2 hypnotic spectres in the deck also. i miss those little babies.

I may play with them regardless ;D

Sturtzilla
04-16-2014, 09:19 AM
Hey all! Another week and another locals played through to some prize! Ended second after going 3-1, losing in the last round to Merfolk (Blue Burn). I have tweaked up the list a bit as our local meta has shifted to be a little more fair. Here is the list I played for reference.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Submerge
1 Force of Will

I played Jund Nic Fit (2-0), 4-Color Delver (2-1), BUG Mirror (2-0), and Merfolk (0-2). The deck felt pretty good up until Merfolk. I think if the deck starts to rear its head we will need to start considering Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague, and possibly Pernicious Deed. Those were my thoughts at improving the match up. I wasn't really in either game. I mulliganed both 7 card hands to find more than sinlge land hands. Then was removal light on 6. I don't think it is favorable, but maybe that amplified how bad it felt. Anyway I would like to hear what you guys think about it.

say no to scurvy
04-16-2014, 09:55 AM
With the 6 maindeck spot-removal build like yours, I find we are favored against the cavern build and less so against the wasteland version.

wcm8
04-16-2014, 10:52 AM
I am playing 3 Lili and 2 Sylvan Libraries in my maindeck to great results. Both cards are fantastic against what I perceive the current metagame to be like. I actually dropped threats 13-14 for these, but I could see making room for a lone Tombstalker or TNN. Library is a pseudo-threat, as it digs for gas and against combo and/or StP decks it can safely generate card advantage. Works great with all of the fetchlands too. It can occasionally +1 Goyf if it gets countered/discarded/destroyed. Extras can be shuffled away. Library also makes the sideboard even better, since it really helps dig deep for your hate cards.

Dragonslayer_90
04-16-2014, 11:24 AM
The deck felt pretty good up until Merfolk. I think if the deck starts to rear its head we will need to start considering Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague, and possibly Pernicious Deed. Those were my thoughts at improving the match up. I wasn't really in either game. I mulliganed both 7 card hands to find more than sinlge land hands. Then was removal light on 6. I don't think it is favorable, but maybe that amplified how bad it felt. Anyway I would like to hear what you guys think about it.

I think Toxic Deluge is the best sb consideration out of all the cards you mentioned. Plague doesn't really get the job done against merfolk and Pernicious Deed is too mana intensive. I played your final round opponent in the second round last night. One of the keys to the match up I think is an early hymn. I lost game one despite a good start because I drew too many lands, won game two basically because I resolved a turn two hymn on the play and lost game 3 because I misplayed. I think the matchup is annoying but is manageable given an early hymn and/or removal.


I am playing 3 Lili and 2 Sylvan Libraries in my maindeck to great results. Both cards are fantastic against what I perceive the current metagame to be like. I actually dropped threats 13-14 for these, but I could see making room for a lone Tombstalker or TNN. Library is a pseudo-threat, as it digs for gas and against combo and/or StP decks it can safely generate card advantage. Works great with all of the fetchlands too. It can occasionally +1 Goyf if it gets countered/discarded/destroyed. Extras can be shuffled away. Library also makes the sideboard even better, since it really helps dig deep for your hate cards.

Curious about your build. Would you mind posting a list with justification of other non-stock choices?

Sturtzilla
04-16-2014, 11:42 AM
One of the keys to the match up I think is an early Hymn.

I am not saying that you are wrong. Your go to answer whenever I claim there is a bad match up (like Burn) is "Hymn them early." I just don't think it is always that cut and dry especially in these very redundant decks (Burn, Merfolk). I think here we need to counter turn 1-2 Vials, have Deluge in the deck, and also be Hymning them. Hymn wasn't an easy option for me either game mostly due to early Cursecatchers.

AngryTroll
04-16-2014, 12:33 PM
I went 7-2 this weekend at SCG:DFW for 21st place with the standard 2 Liliana, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Hymn list. My sideboard was:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Krosan Grip
I expected lots of Miracles, so a second Grip made it into the sideboard, as it's also good against Batterskulls. I only ended wanting the Grip against Aluren, but it was great in that matchup.

Our group heard that round three was delayed and starting at 1, so we left for lunch after much griping about the delay. Turns out the announcement was Two Headed Giant started at 1...so we all got a match loss round 3. It sounded like a fair number of people made the same mistake, but not enough for it to need to be fixed. Bummer. Besides that, though, I went 7-1 in matches.

A few quick highlights:

2-0 UG Infect
I actually used a Deathrite Shaman to block this game and eat an Invigorate out of my opponent's hand. It's easy to forget he actually does five things (Attack, block, make mana, drain life, and gain life).

0-2 Death and Taxes
I made a mistake in game two, letting a SFM live to increase my clock; I figured I could win before the Sword of Feast and Famine he fetched would be relevant.
Board: I had 2 flipped Delvers, three land, a Disfigure, Golgari Charm, and Hymn in hand; Opponent: 1 Flickerwisp (reset a Delver, but it flipped again), 1 SFM, three lands, 5 cards in hand (1 SoF&F). My opponent had already taken 6 from the two Delvers.

I opted to Disfigure the Flickerwisp, swing for six, and Hymn my opponent. I hit two lands....but his remaining three cards were Brimaz, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Batterskull. He vialed in the Batterskull, made a Brimaz, and I lost horribly. The other line of play was to Disfigure the SFM, Golgari Charm the Flickerwisp, and swing for four instead of six, leaving him five cards in hand. This line lets him untap and cast Brimaz, then untap the next turn, play and equip the sword, swing with Brimaz, and then play the Batterskull, so I'm not sure I could have won this game either way. Disclaimer: I might be slightly off in the details, but this is close to what happened.


Match Loss

Bant 2-0.
I killed multiple TNNs this match; what's the big deal about the 3/1 again, exactly? This opponent was very friendly but seemed new to Legacy.

BUG Control 2-1
This was a super interesting interactive match. In game three I ended up with 3 DRS in play; I laughed about Echoing Decay, but luckily my opponent couldn't find his Maelstrom Pulse or Toxic Deluge before I killed him. I had a series of live draws in one of the games while he was stuck that sealed the deal.

BURG 2-0.
Game two he had an early Bitterblossom! I had an Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm, but was very tight on mana all game and didn't want to get Dazed out. We traded 3 or 4 Wastelands, and eventually his DRS stopped mine from making mana. I finally managed to Abrupt Decay the enchantment, bait a counter with Goyf, and Golgari Charm for 4 faeries and a Delver. I won this game with Goyfs.

Aluren 2-1.
This deck is awesome. I want to build it...why on earth hasn't Imperial Recruiter been reprinted? In game two I passed holding Krosan Grip, Clique, and an Abrupt Decay. My opponent knew about all three from a Gitaxian Probe, so when he Cabal Therapied we both went into the tank. I Cliqued him and sent an Aluren to the bottom of the deck, and that was it. He did Intuition for 3 Shardless Agents while holding a Cavern Harpy and had four mana in play, which seemed super cool....but I just killed the Shardless Agent and then killed him. I was beaten to death by Scavenging Oozes and assorted little creatures in game two, which was pretty funny.

Esper 2-1.
That 3/1 protection-from-the-format game-wrecker blocked a Tarmogoyf once and then I killed it again. I don't know what the problem seems to be. In game three, on the play, my hand was Delta, Delver x2, Daze, Wasteland x3. I laughed and kept it. I led with Delver, he Probed me, looked concerned, and played a fetchland. I played another Delver and a Wasteland and said go. He made a Volcanic, fetched a Tundra, and killed a Delver. I untapped and Wastelanded him out of the game. My Delver refused to flip, but he missed so many turns it was pretty straightforward to kill him.

ANT 2-0.
One of my friends and I were paired in the final round. We agreed to split, and then my draws were incredibly good.


I ended up 7-2 and won six matches in a row after a rocky start. Thoughts:
I love the Hymn and Tombstalker version. I am not opposed to testing the TNN build, but every time I cast a Tombstalker it was a huge problem for my opponents.
2 Lilianas maindeck were incredible. I'd still like to have a Sylvan Library in game one, but I don't think it's worth cutting the 20th land or the fourth Ponder or going up to 61 cards.
The Elves matchup is rough with that sideboard. I played Elves twice Friday night and went 1-1. If I planned to see the deck more often TA needs a sweeper of some sort in the board.
I played against 8 Different decks in 8 rounds! Legacy is awesome.

zenzog
04-16-2014, 12:35 PM
Went 3-1 and finished in the top 4 of a local tournament with the following list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
3 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Force of Will

Matches were as follows:
0-2 UWr Miracles, 2-0 Deadguy Ale, 2-0 UWR Delver, 2-1 UWr Miracles

When playing against miracles, I usually go:
-2 Abrupt Decay, -4 Daze, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Tarmogoyf, -1 Wasteland
+1 Lilliana of the Veil, +1 Krosan Grip, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Null Rod, +1 Envelop, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Hymn to Tourach

The matchup is definitely getting easier for me as I get more experience with the deck. I used to be on Bob Huang's list (with a few SB tweaks), but I swapped stalkers for confidants, ponder for spell pierce, and abrupt decay for sylvan library. I face at least one miracles list every week, so I'm slightly more geared towards that.

The week before, I went
2-0 Landstill, 0-2 UWr Miracles, 1-0 Bye, 0-2 Death and Taxes

D&T is another deck I would expect to play weekly... what can be done about Mirran Crusader, if anything? Just Toxic Deluge and maybe Marsh Casualties?

Esper3k
04-16-2014, 01:07 PM
Ok! Here's my tournament report from SCG DFW:

Here's my decklist:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66165

Essentially, I'm playing Phazonmutant's successful list with a few small tweaks. In the main, I prefer the 4th Daze over the Spell Pierce because I wanted to maximize my chances of seeing Daze early. I played a 2 TNN package over the Dark Confidant / Tombstalker because I wanted to just have a better game vs control & fair decks and was willing to have a slightly weaker G1 vs combo. I'm a greedy bastard and cut the 20th land (a fetch) for the Sylvan Library in the main because I love Library plus I've been noticing that I tend to board out a land in many matchups anyways (essentially any deck that doesn't run heavy Wastelands) so I wanted to pretty much preboard there.

In the board, as we have discussed on this thread, I'm one of the guys who believes in the idea that because we see so many cards due to our cantrips, I like having high impact sideboard cards, so you see things like an Envelop / Flusterstorm / 2x Spell Pierce package vs the 4x Spell Pierces, etc. The Jitte is a little odd, but I was noticing that I was having some issues with actually the fair matchups like D&T, so I wanted to have something that was very impactful on them. It being an artifact is perfect because again, it's really not going to get hit by anything other than an Abrupt Decay in the fair matches. Plus, I'm playing the 2x TNN and we know how Equipment works with that guy.

Anyways, onto the report! Forgive my old man memory - I tried to take notes, but I was more focused on just winning matches :)

Round 1 - vs Johnny (Deathblade)

Game 1: He wins the die roll and I don't remember too much of this match other than he actually got down a Batterskull and a Bitterblossom! However, 3x flipped Delvers race Batterskull really well :) On the last turn of the game, he was at 8 life, had 1 faerie token and I had to Ponder to look for a removal spell for the Faerie for the win. Disfigure was on top.

Boarding: -3 Force of Will, -4 Daze, -1 Disfigure, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Dismember (in this matchup, where your life total isn't under much pressure, I like Dismember because it can kill a Germ too), +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Vendilion Clique

Game 2: I mulled to 6 and kept something like Underground Sea, Wasteland, Ponder, Thoughtseize, Krosan Grip, Clique. He plays a fetch, grabs a Tundra, and passes. I draw a Fetch land and lead off with a Thoughtseize since I don't have an answer to T2 SFM yet. I see: StPx2, Flooded Strand, Wasteland, SCMx2. I take a SCM. He Wastelands me on his turn and I Wasteland him back so we're both on zero lands. He drops his Flooded Strand and fetches a basic Plains while I start Pondering looking for lands. We play draw-go for a bit and he plays an Underground Sea to go along with his Plains and passes the turn. I get up to Sea, Sea, Wasteland, and Clique him on his draw step. I see: 3x StP, SCM, Batterskull, SFM, Divert (!!!). Thinking hard, I just leave him with his hand and he plays SFM, getting Jitte. On my turn, I Wasteland his Sea and Disfigure his SFM, and attack with the Clique. On his turn, he just draws and plows my Clique (god, I love Wasteland). Eventually, I get enough dudes out to punch through his 3 StP and beat him to death with a 7/8 Tarmogoyf (I had killed a Bitterblossom in the match).

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 - vs Chris (Esper Stoneblade)

Game 1: I win the die roll and immediately mull to 4. Wow, nice deck. I keep a hand of Underground Sea, Daze, Daze, Hymn to Tourach. I play Sea and pass turn. He plays a Sea and passes. I draw... fetch land! Get a Bayou, Hymn. He tries to Brainstorm to hide his goodies, but I snap Daze it. I get a Basic Island and Lingering Souls, ugh. On his turn, he plays another Sea and drops a Jitte. Whew. On my turn... Sylvan Library!!! I windmill slam it down and pass turn. Chris then Brainstorms, plays a third Sea and goes for the Lingering Souls flashback, which I Daze. My turn? Pay 8 life to Sylvan Library. He gets stuck on 3 Seas and the Library carries me the distance.

Boarding: Same as vs Deathblade

Game 2: He keeps a 2 land hand with 1 nonbasic. I have Wasteland. Hooray for free wins!

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 - vs Jarrod (UWR Delver)

Game 1: Jarrod wins the die roll and we have a good game, but I can't find an Abrupt Decay to save my life vs a TNN + Jitte and the mini-Progenitus kills me.

Boarding: Same as vs Deathblade except I left in both Disfigures (they have burn) and leave out the Dismember.

Game 2: I kill all his guys and he fails to find removal for my guys.

Game 3: We get this insane board state where I have Tarmogoyf, 2 Flipped Delvers, TNN vs his Delver & TNN + Jitte. He's constantly having to pop Jitte counters to get life / kill my guys. Neither of us can kill each other in time and we end up drawing. Neither of us is willing to concede to the other so we just take our draw. I see Jarrod at tables next to me throughout the tournament and we keep cheering each other on.

2-0-1 (5-1-1)

Round 4 - vs Darrin (UWr Miracles)

This one was an off-camera feature match. IIRC, this was Darrin's first time playing Miracles - wow!

Game 1: I do my thing and wreck his hand and eventually get down dudes + Sylvan, which draws me a bunch of cards.

Boarding: -4 Daze, -2 Disfigure, -2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Envelop, +1 Force of Will, +2 Golgari Charm (swapping for the ADs - you do this if you think they're going to board out CB since Golgari Charm can do double work vs Verdict & RIP, which is too good for them not to bring in), +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Vendilion Clique

Game 2: A mull to 6 starts this game off. I get him down to 7 life with just a lone Top and 1 card vs my TNN while I have Force + Envelop in my hand. I draw a Delver and play it to put him on a faster clock. He doesn't have an answer and dies next turn. My friend feels like I should've just kept the Delver in my hand so I have Force + Envelop backup against Terminus in case he has Force + blue card, but he'll get an extra draw step. Thoughts?

3-0-1 (7-1-1)

Round 5 - vs Jorge

Game 1: Jorge is on the play and leads off with a fetchland into Tundra. I play a Delver and it gets plowed. He plays a Tropical Island (ok, Bant?) and drops a SFM. I Disfigure the SFM and Wasteland his white source. The game goes back and forth, but the Wasteland sets him far enough back that I can finish him off with a Delver. He played a DRS and Geist of Saint Traft over the course of the game, so I got a little more information out of that.

Boarding: Standard Deathblade (but keeping in mind Golgari Charm might not be that good here if he's playing Geists over TNN)

Game 2: Mull to 6 already meant my hand was a little shaky. Deathblade does what Deathblade does and Plow, SFM, SCM -> Plow, Geist and I die.

Boarding: -1 Golgari Charm, +1 Disfigure. I didn't see any TNNs in 2 games, so I'll bring the second Disfigure back in to fight DRS + SFM.

Game 3: I almost punt the game away when I have Sylvan Library out... and set up so that my double Delvers -won't- flip (I wanted to draw a Tarmogoyf and was low on life so I couldn't just pay 4), but the power of the green Necropotence carries me through my mistake.

4-0-1 (9-2-1)

Round 6 - vs Donald (UWR Delver)

I believe this was Donald's first or second Legacy tournament, so props to him for doing well this far!

Game 1: I win the die roll, which is of course huge here and helps offset my mulligan to 6. We disrupt each other, but I stick a Goyf and he doesn't have StP or TNN to stop it.

Boarding: Normal UWR Delver boarding

Game 2: Donald's turn to mulligan to 6! I have T1 DRS, but he has T2 RIP. I let ignore it and keep Brainstorm/Pondering to find more lands and slowly Wasteland him out while he's filling his hand through SFMs that keep dying. I eventually stick a Jitte on the DRS and he can't kill it before it kills his board, then him. I let RIP stick around the entire game even though I had AD & Golgari Charm in my hand :)

5-0-1 (11-2-1)

Round 7 - Ke (Reanimator)

Ke and Jarrod (my Round 3 opponent that I had drawn with) were playing at the table next to mine and I remembered seeing a Griselbrand + Sea on his side of the table, so I put him on Reanimator. We've got another off camera feature match.

Game 1: I won the die roll and kept: Underground Sea, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Daze, Hymn, Wasteland, Sylvan Library. I lead off with T1 DRS, which he snap Forces. I Daze back and he's sad. He plays fetches, Careful Study... no fatties for the yard! That's important since I don't draw a Green source next turn and I play the Sylvan Library off of the DRS. He plays land, go. My Library doesn't find me a land, but I see... Force, Daze, Daze. Pay 8 life, please! Tarmogoyf hits the table and my next 3 from Library finds me the green source I need to lock up the game with my countermagic.

Boarding: -2 Disfigure, -2 TNN, -2 Abrupt Decay (I usually like to leave 1 in vs Reanimator for Pithing Needles and Animate Dead), -3 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Envelop, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Force of Will, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Vendilion Clique

Game 2: I mull to 6 keeping Force, Flusterstorm, DRS, Goyf, 2x land. Can't ask for too much better than that on a mull to 6, right? Well, Ke really sticks it in my pooper on this one. He goes T1: City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, Show & Tell. I Force. My turn, land, DRS. His turn: Float mana from City, Underground Sea, Show & Tell, which resolves and Griselbrand shows up to the party. Ugh. Ole' hook hands smashes my face and I can't find an answer, especially when he Needles naming Liliana.

Game 3: I keep Grafdigger's Cage, Tarmogoyf, DRS, Force, Brainstorm, land, land. I slam down the T1 Grafdigger's Cage and he has to read it sadly. He plays a land and Entombs anyways, finding Grave Titan. I draw a Daze and play the DRS. He draws, plays a land, and Brainstorms, then passes turn. I draw Thoughtseize and play it, seeing: Show & Tell x 2, Lotus Petal, City of Traitors, Flusterstorm, Reanimate. Ugh, so he can resolve a Show & Tell through my countermagic no matter what I do unless I Brainstorm into another counterspell. I take a Show & Tell and get ready for the worst. He drops the City (4 mana now), Lotus Petal (5 mana), and Show & Tells. I Force, pitching the Daze, and predictably, he Flusterstorms. I Brainstorm and see land, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, and put back Abrupt Decay and Liliana on top. Show & Tell resolves and he drops Elesh Norn while I drop Tarmogoyf. Elesh Norn kills my DRS, but my Goyf stays alive. I draw Liliana and play her, immediately -2ing her to kill Elesh Norn and Goyf starts beating. He draws nothing and Liliana + Goyf get there.

6-0-1 (13-3-1)

Round 8 - Jake (RUG)

Huh - a fellow Houstonian! We talk about the local stores in the area then get started. Yet another off camera feature match for us.

Game 1: I win the die roll and keep a greedy hand of Bayou, Wasteland, double DRS, Force, Daze. Well, of course I don't find lands for awhile, but Jake spends his early turns playing a Delver, then Bolting my DRS, which actually allows me time to naturally draw more lands! The game goes long and gets really awkward with his triple Goyfs vs my double Goyf + DRS at one point but he lands a TNN and has me low enough that I can't race the Merfolk Rogue.

Boarding: -3 Force of Will, -2 Daze, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Dismember (sometimes paying 4 life sucks, but it's more removal and can potentially kill Tarmogoyfs), +1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Vendilion Clique (it trades with Delver or Goose), +1 Umezawa's Jitte

Game 2: I achieve Tarmogoyf superiority and he can't deal with the big green guys.

Boarding: Normally, against RUG, I'd bring in 2 Force for the 2 Daze since I'm on the draw, but I noticed in G2 he really wasn't playing around Daze at all (I had gotten a TNN with Daze), so I left them in.

Game 3: Ugh. Mull to 5. I keep Underground Sea, Daze, Ponder, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf. He leads off with a Tropical Island and passes. Damn, Stifle. Lucky I don't have any fetches! I draw a Disfigure and Ponder into Bayou, Goyf, Liliana and draw the Bayou. Jake Ponders on his turn (I'm tempted to Daze here), then plays Wasteland... and passes? Ok. I Waste his Tropical Island and pass. If he Wastelands my Sea here, it sucks, but I'll have a Bayou to his 0 lands and all I need is any other land to start dropping Goyfs. The point is moot when he just draws and passes, not Wastelanding me again - I'm thinking he had Goyfs too. Well, I drop the Bayou and play Goyf. He draws and passes. I attack, play second Goyf, which prompts the concession from him.

8-0-1 (15-3-1)

There are only three X-0-1's going into the last round and I draw with the burn player into the T8.

You can see my match vs Joe Lossett on camera here:

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/519515448

Starts at around 13:06:00

Dragonslayer_90
04-16-2014, 01:07 PM
I am not saying that you are wrong. Your go to answer whenever I claim there is a bad match up (like Burn) is "Hymn them early." I just don't think it is always that cut and dry especially in these very redundant decks (Burn, Merfolk). I think here we need to counter turn 1-2 Vials, have Deluge in the deck, and also be Hymning them. Hymn wasn't an easy option for me either game mostly due to early Cursecatchers.

Didn't see Cursecatchers in any games so didn't know he had them, though I'm not surprised he did have them. Much of the time I say "Hymn them early" I'm saying it partly in jest. But seriously, an early Hymn is a phenomenal high impact play against redundant aggressives decks but it's not the ONLY high impact play that should or can be made. If I have a force of will in hand that's live, I will force of will a turn1/2 Aether Vial. Not saying I wouldn't do that. That's the reason I said "one of the keys" and not "the key" in my previous post. Sure there are particular conditions that make it less impactful like when you are on the draw but you can say that about many cards really.




D&T is another deck I would expect to play weekly... what can be done about Mirran Crusader, if anything? Just Toxic Deluge and maybe Marsh Casualties?

Try to get it with discard if you can. If it sticks you've either got to wipe the board with something like deluge or Liliana it, which is not as unlikely as you think if you can play removal the gathering to stifle their board development from the early game onward.

Asthereal
04-16-2014, 02:08 PM
@Zenzog: Why would you board out a Tarmogoyf against Miracles? Dropping Stalkers makes sense because they suck against Jace, but all other threats are golden against them. At least, that's what I think. I'd much rather not board in the Surgical.

zenzog
04-16-2014, 02:34 PM
@Zenzog: Why would you board out a Tarmogoyf against Miracles? Dropping Stalkers makes sense because they suck against Jace, but all other threats are golden against them. At least, that's what I think. I'd much rather not board in the Surgical.

It's mostly to keep myself slightly less dependent on the graveyard.
That was my thought process anyway. But they do have a lot of spot removal spells that it might be better to keep the 4 in. I could see going down to 2 FOW and keeping in the goyf. Or not boarding in the null rod at all, but it's nice to have against top.

Re: Surgical-- I feel that they're a deck that just has a couple big haymakers in terminus, entreat, and jace and if surgical can nab one of them off a hymn or thoughtseize (or after getting terminus'd), I feel a little safer. These pilots usually put in 2 rest in peace, 2 supreme verdict and take out counterbalance post board.

Also, I might put a maelstrom pulse into my SB for the miracles matchup, possibly over the 4th hymn to tourach.

Barbed Blightning
04-17-2014, 12:08 AM
Looking for some input on the following list. Seattle's meta is flooded with Tundras and Delvers, but with the Portland Open coming up in late June, I'm preparing for a slew of random decks.


4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Dark Confidant

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder

2 Liliana of the Veil

SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge



The sideboard is a bit of a mess and I'm still on the fence about Bob and TNN main. I like Esper3k's theory about high-impact cards (though not necessarily on Envelop :P) so this SB reflects that somewhat I think. Any thoughts?


EDIT: Sturtzilla, I just saw that Trigon Predator in your sideboard. Saucy. Was it as good as my inner Timmy desperately wants it to be?

Esper3k
04-17-2014, 09:12 AM
I think the list looks fine. The only card I'm iffy on is Toxic Deluge. Null Rod was less good for me than I expected in my testing (plenty fine vs Tops but wasn't as good vs Equipment as I wanted it to be).

Sturtzilla
04-17-2014, 09:46 AM
EDIT: Sturtzilla, I just saw that Trygon Predator in your sideboard. Saucy. Was it as good as my inner Timmy desperately wants it to be?

I haven't really gotten to test it out that rigorously yet. My initial thinking was that if he is good enough for Vintage sideboards (which he is... and some maindecks), then there are probably applications for him in Legacy. My first thought was that he would be really awesome against UWR Delver. However they usually pack 3-4 Bolt and 3-4 StP. Both of these take care of the Predator. I am still working on exactly what I want to do sideboarding wise in that match up, but Predator is usually in the mix. He is an extra creature that still has a body post RIP and can also get us out from underneath a RIP. Plus he also cleans up Equipment like a boss. The only time I have cast him, he was immediately FoWed, which made my opponent Hellbent. I was slightly ahead on board with some removal in hand. Figured I would push forward to invalidate any incoming Equipment. I would say I am not sold on him yet, but he seems pretty good. Plus there are other match ups where he has some value like Painter, Enchantress, and any Stoneforge deck. There are probably more too. I would say give it a try.

wcm8
04-17-2014, 10:05 AM
Null Rod is criminally underplayed. Shuts off equipment, Vial, Top, etc.

Carpet of Flowers is sick tech in the tempo mirror.

Barbed Blightning
04-17-2014, 11:28 AM
Null Rod is criminally underplayed. Shuts off equipment, Vial, Top, etc.

Carpet of Flowers is sick tech in the tempo mirror.

Capet... damn. Should probably be playing that, lol.

My concern with Rod is that, unlike needle, it can't hit bullshit like Jace, SFM, Mom, Port, etc--hence 1 needle 1 rod. Maybe this is too nitpicky.

@Sturtzilla: I will! He also sounds great vs Mud and even D&T.

@Esper: Deluge is like charm #3 but has a higher killing power; it's been awesome vs D&T, who are going back to Crusader to keep up with our dominance. Deluge cleans their clock nicely



Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

exallium
04-17-2014, 11:34 AM
Null Rod is criminally underplayed. Shuts off equipment, Vial, Top, etc.

Carpet of Flowers is sick tech in the tempo mirror.

I've currently got a singleton Null Rod in my sideboard. This is the nuts against Death and Taxes.

YamiJoey
04-17-2014, 11:59 AM
I haven't really gotten to test it out that rigorously yet. My initial thinking was that if he is good enough for Vintage sideboards (which he is... and some maindecks), then there are probably applications for him in Legacy.

You do understand why, though. Right? If Trygon Predator said "Destroy Target Land", then maybe we could have a discussion about this.

T-101
04-17-2014, 12:33 PM
Not only "Destroy target land," but remember that playing against Shops (one of the big three), this reads, "Unblockable. When this deals combat damage to a player, destroy target PERMANENT."

Sturtzilla
04-17-2014, 01:47 PM
You do understand why, though. Right? If Trygon Predator said "Destroy Target Land", then maybe we could have a discussion about this.

Yes. That was partially in jest. Hitting Moxen and Time Vaults... basically everything versus Workshop decks is great. In Legacy I find the problem versus UWR in particular to be how they can nerf our 8 of our 14 or so threats with one card (RIP). Predator not only takes out all of the equipment but also help us with this divergent sideboard tactic. And it is pretty decent in a handful of other matches.



Not only "Destroy target land," but remember that playing against Shops (one of the big three), this reads, "Unblockable. When this deals combat damage to a player, destroy target PERMANENT."

Yep. Against MUD, Painter, Enchantress and Affinity this is pretty close to the same. It does still have some value against decks like UWR post board where we have to deal with RIP.

Esper3k
04-17-2014, 02:15 PM
I haven't been a huge fan of Null Rod in my testing, especially against Equipment. The problem is that it's only really good if you get it down before they can get it onto a guy. Otherwise, it does very little against a Sword or Batterskull other than inconveniencing them some.

Water_Wizard
04-18-2014, 04:02 PM
I haven't been a huge fan of Null Rod in my testing, especially against Equipment. The problem is that it's only really good if you get it down before they can get it onto a guy. Otherwise, it does very little against a Sword or Batterskull other than inconveniencing them some.

It shuts off Jitte and makes it so Batterskull can only be played one time. Once you get a Goyf at 4/5 or above, Batterskull becomes a one-time lifelink blocker.

I've liked Null Rod a lot, but versus more fringe decks like Affinity, Tezzeret Control, MUD, and Painter.

Against Miracles, Pithing Needle is probably better (because it can hit Jace and Karakas in addition to SDT), so long as the Miracles player is not running Engineered Explosives. Once Miracles runs EE, Null Rod becomes awesome.

PS - Null Rod is also awesome vs. artifact mana like Lotus Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, etc. Anytime you can bring in 1 card to potentially blank 10+ of your opponent's cards, that 1 card is worth consideration.

Esper3k
04-18-2014, 04:10 PM
It shuts off Jitte and makes it so Batterskull can only be played one time. Once you get a Goyf at 4/5 or above, Batterskull becomes a one-time lifelink blocker.

I've liked Null Rod a lot, but versus more fringe decks like Affinity, Tezzeret Control, MUD, and Painter.

Against Miracles, Pithing Needle is probably better (because it can hit Jace and Karakas in addition to SDT), so long as the Miracles player is not running Engineered Explosives. Once Miracles runs EE, Null Rod becomes awesome.

PS - Null Rod is also awesome vs. artifact mana like Lotus Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, etc. Anytime you can bring in 1 card to potentially blank 10+ of your opponent's cards, that 1 card is worth consideration.

Sure it shuts off Jitte and hinders Batterskull, but it doesn't do anything if you're behind and draw it (unlike Grip, for example, which actually deals with equipped Equipment that you're losing to).

While Null Rod is pretty hilarious vs Imperial Painter and Storm decks, I don't feel that we generally need much help to beat Storm nor is Painter a common enough matchup to really focus too much of the sideboard upon.

Barbed Blightning
04-18-2014, 04:19 PM
Starting to think my 1-1-1 grip/rod/needle package was accidentally the right call

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Esper3k
04-18-2014, 04:44 PM
Starting to think my 1-1-1 grip/rod/needle package was accidentally the right call

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Hah yeah if you run all 3, you should have most bases covered.

Barbed Blightning
04-18-2014, 04:45 PM
Hah yeah if you run all 3, you should have most bases covered.

Well I'm definitely running grip; card is stupid good. The other two are iffy still

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Esper3k
04-18-2014, 04:51 PM
Well I'm definitely running grip; card is stupid good. The other two are iffy still

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

To me, running Null Rod / Pithing Needle on top of Grip + 4x Abrupt Decay was a little overkill. They just weren't doing what I was wanting them to do in the matchups I was facing, so I eventually cut them and haven't missed either of them at all except against the odd matchups like UB Tezzeret.

Purgatory
04-18-2014, 05:25 PM
Played this list to a crisp 5-0, position 1/62, today:

9 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
2 Submerge
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Winter Orb
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

My matches:
Bant Fish (2-1)
Junk (2-1)
UG Infect (2-0)
Jund (2-1)
DnT (2-1)

TNN felt very strong. Submerge in the board was really good, and I never faced Miracles, so I only brought WOrb vs Jund.

phi
04-18-2014, 05:33 PM
Very interesting without Liliana. Did you miss her? Why weren't you running her in sb either?

KobeBryan
04-18-2014, 05:40 PM
To me, running Null Rod / Pithing Needle on top of Grip + 4x Abrupt Decay was a little overkill. They just weren't doing what I was wanting them to do in the matchups I was facing, so I eventually cut them and haven't missed either of them at all except against the odd matchups like UB Tezzeret.

I think Null goes in the Pithing needle spot and the grip is the maelstrom pulse slots. Otherwise your board will be thin like Esper here...who only had 1 surgical and a cage in his sideboard.

He should say...Thank god i didn't run into dredge

Purgatory
04-18-2014, 05:43 PM
Very interesting without Liliana. Did you miss her? Why weren't you running her in sb either?

To be honest, I don't own any.

I won a game agains Infect thanks to Dismember not being Liliana instead.

She belongs somewhere in the 75 for sure, I just haven't been assed yet.

Esper3k
04-18-2014, 06:08 PM
I think Null goes in the Pithing needle spot and the grip is the maelstrom pulse slots. Otherwise your board will be thin like Esper here...who only had 1 surgical and a cage in his sideboard.

He should say...Thank god i didn't run into dredge

I wouldn't be happy vs Dredge, sure, but 1) it's pretty uncommon these days, 2) Having Needle and Null Rod don't really help vs Dredge either.

KobeBryan
04-18-2014, 07:06 PM
I wouldn't be happy vs Dredge, sure, but 1) it's pretty uncommon these days, 2) Having Needle and Null Rod don't really help vs Dredge either.

Its probably more common on the lower tables. But with a competent dredge player, in this meta, he can go quite far

phazonmutant
04-19-2014, 01:27 AM
To me, running Null Rod / Pithing Needle on top of Grip + 4x Abrupt Decay was a little overkill. They just weren't doing what I was wanting them to do in the matchups I was facing, so I eventually cut them and haven't missed either of them at all except against the odd matchups like UB Tezzeret.

Definitely on the same page as Esper here. I like Needle over Null Rod because it's a proactive answer to Stoneforge into Batterskull as well as planeswalkers, but on the whole I'd just rather have Pulse. As he mentioned, the highest-impact sideboard cards are ones that allow you to catch up from behind on board - it's not what the deck's strongest suit game 1 so the cards you bring in should try to compensate for that.


Looking for some input on the following list. Seattle's meta is flooded with Tundras and Delvers, but with the Portland Open coming up in late June, I'm preparing for a slew of random decks.
<main>

SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

The sideboard is a bit of a mess and I'm still on the fence about Bob and TNN main. I like Esper3k's theory about high-impact cards (though not necessarily on Envelop :P) so this SB reflects that somewhat I think. Any thoughts?


EDIT: Sturtzilla, I just saw that Trigon Predator in your sideboard. Saucy. Was it as good as my inner Timmy desperately wants it to be?

#scoreboard. Just sayin'...

For real though, I think you need another 1-mana counterspell for when you board out Daze but need blue count (Miracles, Elves), as well as just to gain back some percentages against Sneak and Show. I think I would play the third Disfigure over Deluge, haven't been impressed with a 3 mana wrath that is bad when you're behind on life.

Triangle Predator is pretty spicy. I think it's a bit too cute thought. It's pretty soft to the 8 removal spell UWR Delver deck, it gets eaten by Serra Avenger, and most embarrassingly, it's mediocre against Enchantress. The deck runs 4 ways to prevent damage, 2-4 ways to give their permanents shroud, and 4+ ways to tax your combat step.

Barbed Blightning
04-19-2014, 03:08 AM
Definitely on the same page as Esper here. I like Needle over Null Rod because it's a proactive answer to Stoneforge into Batterskull as well as planeswalkers, but on the whole I'd just rather have Pulse. As he mentioned, the highest-impact sideboard cards are ones that allow you to catch up from behind on board - it's not what the deck's strongest suit game 1 so the cards you bring in should try to compensate for that.



#scoreboard. Just sayin'...

For real though, I think you need another 1-mana counterspell for when you board out Daze but need blue count (Miracles, Elves), as well as just to gain back some percentages against Sneak and Show. I think I would play the third Disfigure over Deluge, haven't been impressed with a 3 mana wrath that is bad when you're behind on life.

Triangle Predator is pretty spicy. I think it's a bit too cute thought. It's pretty soft to the 8 removal spell UWR Delver deck, it gets eaten by Serra Avenger, and most embarrassingly, it's mediocre against Enchantress. The deck runs 4 ways to prevent damage, 2-4 ways to give their permanents shroud, and 4+ ways to tax your combat step.

#scoreboard? I don't follow...

Deluge has been great at regaining presence (similar to pulse) and given DRS' "worst" ability, life is not such a huge deal. I do agree with your comment on the needed 3rd counter; currently I am fiddling with library main. I may try envelop, pierce or fluster (pierce being top dog) or maybe even Swan Song (maybe).

Oh, how I wish trigon was good. You are correct, though, I think.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Der_Endboss
04-19-2014, 04:10 AM
IMO Swan Song is not that good, because the token stops your Delver. In most MA were you need Swan Song, Delver wins by making pressure.

PS: Thanks to Dragonslayer_90 for the new Primer! I love it^^

sawatarix
04-19-2014, 04:35 AM
Swan Song should stay in control or combodeck as they don't care about a bird.
In tempodecks there are way better cards than Swansong,namely envelop and flusterstorm


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Manipulato
04-19-2014, 11:11 AM
Hi Team players,
today I went 4:0:1 with The Team. We were 17 players and I played the standard list exept for 1 Pierce instead of the 4th FoW.

My MU were:

Round 1: Mono R Burn
I won 2:0 easily.

1:0

Round 2: Grixis Delver (The list from the last SCG Top 8er)
Game 1 I lost against Stifle + Wasteland because I saw only Sea & Shaman. Game 2+3 I won with 3 Wasteland & pressure.

2:0

Round 3: BW Deadguy
In the 1st Game he kept a greedy hand with 1 land & Top and got punished for it because he drew his 2nd land in TV I think and I was way ahead with Shaman, Delver & Goyf plus Daze backup.
In game 2 we had a discard & resource war which I won because of Hymn. Null Rod took care of Jitte & Top and my Goyf went to town.

3:0

Round 4: Junk (With Mother & Mindsencor etc)
Game 1 I resolved more creatures than he drew removal for it. 2 Tombstalker raced his 2 Shaman with Jitte :wink:.
Game 2 went in his favour because of 3 Wasteland + Sword for Shaman.
Game 3 was a close and really intensive game! I resolved a creature, he destroyed it, I dropped a land he wasted it etc...In the end my 2 Shaman could burn out his last lifepoints (I love damage shooting Birds :-)).

4:0

Round 5: ANT Storm Combo
My opponent was on 3:1 so he didn't exept my Draw offer.
Game 1 lost to a error of mine after he resolved a Past in Flames :rolleyes:
Game 2 he got crushed with Null Rod, Pierce, Hymn + pressure.
After Game 2 thought it would maybe better for him to draw because its a bad MU for him and he must leave because he had a date, so we drew because no other was on 4:0:1 :tongue:

So, I went 1st with 4 wins & 1 draw and picked a Nm German FWB Plateau :smile:

My Sideboard was :
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will

I never used Pulse today and I missed my 3rd copy of Charm & Disfigure so maybe I change a bit. Null Rod was good against Jitte & Top but sadly I never faced Miracles or DnT...

Greetings

KobeBryan
04-19-2014, 12:29 PM
This is my decklist. Some guy was flaming me for bringing in daze on the play game 3...when i dazed his TNN. Did i board wrong? I took out my 3 force of will, 1 daze, 1 library, for 2 charm, 1 disfigure, 1 liliana, 1 null rod against RUW delver

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant

3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library


SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit

HammafistRoob
04-19-2014, 01:23 PM
No you didn't, bringing Daze back in is definitely acceptable. Against some people, I actually don't board them out if they play right into them. If he was raging about being Dazed he was just mad, you obviously caught him off guard.

Esper3k
04-19-2014, 01:35 PM
Yeah in g2, if they're not playing around Daze, I think bringing them back in is fine.

KobeBryan
04-19-2014, 01:43 PM
Yeah in g2, if they're not playing around Daze, I think bringing them back in is fine.

Lets just say I never took out the dazes...what other card can i board in in place of daze. Its not like I would ever bring FOW in this matchup.

phazonmutant
04-19-2014, 01:50 PM
Lets just say I never took out the dazes...what other card can i board in in place of daze. Its not like I would ever bring FOW in this matchup.

Actually, you do. I was on a huge losing streak to UWR Delver where I never won a game on the draw mostly because they tempo'd me out. I started leaving in a couple Forces on the play and it's been better (3-0 I think). It's critical to be able to regain tempo just to claw yourself to a position where your 2-for-1s like Hymn and your fat creatures can take over.

KobeBryan
04-19-2014, 01:55 PM
Actually, you do. I was on a huge losing streak to UWR Delver where I never won a game on the draw mostly because they tempo'd me out. I started leaving in a couple Forces on the play and it's been better (3-0 I think). It's critical to be able to regain tempo just to claw yourself to a position where your 2-for-1s like Hymn and your fat creatures can take over.

I took out the hymns for seizes because I play a lot of blade decks.

I also don't like how i don't do anything turn 2 and all i do is a hymn without something to follow up with the DRS.

Sturtzilla
04-19-2014, 02:11 PM
Did i board wrong? I took out my 3 force of will, 1 daze, 1 library, for 2 charm, 1 disfigure, 1 liliana, 1 null rod against RUW delver.

I very often keep in some number of Dazes regardless of being on the play or draw. Their curve is about the same as ours but in general they are playing fewer lands. We also have Deathrite which helps make our mana base more stable. I think that Daze is typically fine against them. It also forces them get to 4 mana or 3 mana plus a Daze to be able to cast TNN safely. Then there is the question of a particular player's skill level. If they play around it, it may be worth siding out. If they play headlong into it, keep them in.

Barbed Blightning
04-19-2014, 04:37 PM
Some guy was flaming me for bringing in daze on the play game 3...when i dazed his TNN.

Lol. He mad

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

order
04-19-2014, 09:58 PM
Whats the strategy against Jund(with punishing fire)?

My list user BOB instead of Tombstalker/True-Name, so i have biggers problems to punishing fire.

Barbed Blightning
04-19-2014, 10:04 PM
Whats the strategy against Jund(with punishing fire)?

My list user BOB instead of Tombstalker/True-Name, so i have biggers problems to punishing fire.

I suppose it is to run tombstalker or TNN

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

KobeBryan
04-19-2014, 11:04 PM
Whats the strategy against Jund(with punishing fire)?

My list user BOB instead of Tombstalker/True-Name, so i have biggers problems to punishing fire.

I run 2 surgical extractions

Purgatory
04-20-2014, 08:09 AM
Whats the strategy against Jund(with punishing fire)?

My list user BOB instead of Tombstalker/True-Name, so i have biggers problems to punishing fire.

In my experience, Winter Orb is a beating vs them.

defector
04-20-2014, 11:32 PM
I'm picking up BUG Delver and giving it a go. I played to a 2-2 today at my local 4 rounder.

Round 1 Miracles 0-2
Round 2 U/B Tezz 0-2
Round 3 Pox 2-1
Round 4 Tin Fins 2-0

This is what I am currently running:

Mana-20-
Fetch X9
Wasteland X4
U/G Sea X4
Bayou X2
Trop X1

Creatures: 14
Delver X4
DRS X4
Goyf X4
Bob X2

Black: 6
Thoughtseize X4
Lilli X2

Blue: 16
Daze X4
Ponder X4
Brainstorm X4
FoW X4

Gold: 4
Abrupt Decay X4

I cut the Hymns for TS today after playing as it seemed like the deck really wants more turn 1 plays. I played horribly so I'm not taking the record too seriously, but Miracles seemed very tough. The Miracles player I played against was very good, so the gulf may narrow with some experience, but the mu seemed pretty rough. I wish there was a better way to increase the threat density. I am still unsure of the sideboard, but 2 Clique seems good for now. Would love some Miracles advice. I'l take this back to the local next Sunday so hopefully I'll improve with some practice. I'll post results as they go.

I'm looking at SCG Detroit and I saw that one of the guys cut the Lillis. That seems unorthodox, but the deck would love some threat density increase. I don't know how I feel with TNN as it seems lie American Delver is the better TNN deck, but I may be wrong. I wonder about two cliques main, swapping the Bayou for a Trop and having Daze a lil more live, I'll test allong that line and see what i get.

cheers
defector

Anachronism
04-21-2014, 11:58 AM
Recently I've been thinking about splashing red in the sideboard mainly for Red Elemental Blast and potentially some Fire Covenant or Grim Lavamancer. I'm not proposing we go full on BURG with Bolts in the main because BURG's mana base is awful. I just want to board the red against Sneak and Show and other decks that aren't going toW Wasteland us (Miracles, other blue combo decks, Elves). Sneak and Show can be difficult to tech against with only BUG colors, and Red Blasts improve the matchup significantly. I know that black already has a lot of removal, but some of the best options like Massacre and Perish are obviously awkward, and Dread of Night and Virtue's Ruin are too narrow for my taste. Golgari Charm is good, but not every creature has 1 toughness. Fire Covenant is an incredibly efficient mass removal spell. It shines against Elves, but can be awkward against the other tribal decks I suppose. Overall, Red Blasts might be the only card worth splashing, but that is still a worthy addition in my opinion.

Barbed Blightning
04-21-2014, 01:04 PM
Recently I've been thinking about splashing red in the sideboard mainly for Red Elemental Blast and potentially some Fire Covenant or Grim Lavamancer. I'm not proposing we go full on BURG with Bolts in the main because BURG's mana base is awful. I just want to board the red against Sneak and Show and other decks that aren't going toW Wasteland us (Miracles, other blue combo decks, Elves). Sneak and Show can be difficult to tech against with only BUG colors, and Red Blasts improve the matchup significantly. I know that black already has a lot of removal, but some of the best options like Massacre and Perish are obviously awkward, and Dread of Night and Virtue's Ruin are too narrow for my taste. Golgari Charm is good, but not every creature has 1 toughness. Fire Covenant is an incredibly efficient mass removal spell. It shines against Elves, but can be awkward against the other tribal decks I suppose. Overall, Red Blasts might be the only card worth splashing, but that is still a worthy addition in my opinion.

Toxic Deluge (provided you are not playing into it yourself) is far more effective than covenant.

REB is nice, but how do you propose we play them? A singleton volcanic/ badlands main? In the end, I still feel like spell pierce and discard will get us there

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Asthereal
04-22-2014, 04:11 AM
I feel the mana base is stretched as it is, needing U for Delver and cantrips, BB for Hymn, Lily and Stalker and G for Goyf.
Adding red will wreck it even further, causing you to lose games just because of the awkward mana base.

Why do you want red? Maybe we can solve your question within our current colours.

Anachronism
04-22-2014, 12:11 PM
Toxic Deluge (provided you are not playing into it yourself) is far more effective than covenant.

REB is nice, but how do you propose we play them? A singleton volcanic/ badlands main? In the end, I still feel like spell pierce and discard will get us there


Toxic Deluge is generally difficult to play around because this deck thrives on tempo plays. Sure, some games against creature decks you will be kept busy in the first few turns countering and killing things, but generally you want to stick a threat early and kill stuff just long enough to sneak a win in. Deluge will typically kill anything you play other than goyf if you are getting your money's worth out of it. Fire Covenant may not always be as efficient as Deluge, but it is instant and always one-sided which are both huge pluses. But again, access to Fire Covenant isn't nearly as important as REBs, since black has access to a ton of great removal already.

A singleton badlands or volc in the side (or main) will be sufficient against most decks you want REBs against and some decks you want Fire Covenant against.



Asthereal
I feel the mana base is stretched as it is, needing U for Delver and cantrips, BB for Hymn, Lily and Stalker and G for Goyf.
Adding red will wreck it even further, causing you to lose games just because of the awkward mana base.

Why do you want red? Maybe we can solve your question within our current colours.

Red is primarily for REBs, which improve the matchup against Show and Tell decks significantly. Spell Pierce is an on-color option but has obvious disadvantages if the game goes long at all, although hitting Sneak too is nice. Even with a large number of Spell Pierce I still feel unfavored against Sneak and Show. Maybe I would be better off siding Envelop (in addition to needle) against Sneak and Show instead, which would also provide some splash hate against Miracles...but REB is clearly the more powerful spell and would be the obvious choice if you didn't have to splash for it.

Barbed Blightning
04-22-2014, 12:28 PM
Toxic Deluge is generally difficult to play around because this deck thrives on tempo plays. Sure, some games against creature decks you will be kept busy in the first few turns countering and killing things, but generally you want to stick a threat early and kill stuff just long enough to sneak a win in. Deluge will typically kill anything you play other than goyf if you are getting your money's worth out of it. Fire Covenant may not always be as efficient as Deluge, but it is instant and always one-sided which are both huge pluses. But again, access to Fire Covenant isn't nearly as important as REBs, since black has access to a ton of great removal already.

A singleton badlands or volc in the side (or main) will be sufficient against most decks you want REBs against and some decks you want Fire Covenant against.



Red is primarily for REBs, which improve the matchup against Show and Tell decks significantly. Spell Pierce is an on-color option but has obvious disadvantages if the game goes long at all, although hitting Sneak too is nice. Even with a large number of Spell Pierce I still feel unfavored against Sneak and Show. Maybe I would be better off siding Envelop (in addition to needle) against Sneak and Show instead, which would also provide some splash hate against Miracles...but REB is clearly the more powerful spell and would be the obvious choice if you didn't have to splash for it.

Generally, I think in the scenarios where I want Deluge (eg Mirran Crusader, Brimaz) Covenant is strictly garbage, to say nothing of Mom or Sword of F&I. While it will suck if we lose a DRS or Delver, if we play smart we should have a follow-up threat, while D&T (or what have you) is stalled out or at the very least slowed.

I still fail to see how eating up 4 sideboard slots for the off chance you may have reb + a red source is a sound plan

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

phazonmutant
04-22-2014, 12:53 PM
I took out the hymns for seizes because I play a lot of blade decks.

I also don't like how i don't do anything turn 2 and all i do is a hymn without something to follow up with the DRS.


I cut the Hymns for TS today after playing as it seemed like the deck really wants more turn 1 plays. I played horribly so I'm not taking the record too seriously, but Miracles seemed very tough. The Miracles player I played against was very good, so the gulf may narrow with some experience, but the mu seemed pretty rough. I wish there was a better way to increase the threat density. I am still unsure of the sideboard, but 2 Clique seems good for now. Would love some Miracles advice. I'l take this back to the local next Sunday so hopefully I'll improve with some practice. I'll post results as they go.

All y'all cutting Hymn are giving up free wins. Thoughtseize is fine, but it'll never straight-up cripple an opponent. It's a way to get needed card advantage and staying power in tough matchups, and it furthers the land destruction strategy. Yes, having turn 1 plays is important, but there's better things to cut than Hymn - perhaps the 4th Decay for Disfigure? Also, Thoughtseize is good against Blade, but Hymn is the nut too.

I'm not saying you want all 4, but I would be sceptical of a list with fewer than 3.

Defector, Clique is very good, you're right. I usually cut the Tombstalker for a Clique. As far as threats, you should have plenty - Lili and Sylvan are insane against them, and all the other creatures put up a respectable clock. Basically don't go all in unless you need to. Sorry that's not better advice, but it's a really situational matchup.

defector
04-22-2014, 06:00 PM
Hymn is very powerful and was a big reason to pick the deck, but it felt clunky. I'll try the seizes for a while then maybse switch around. I need more experience with the deck regardless. In testing so far Clique has been amazing:) Def want 2 in the board. More games and more testing needed, but I'm commiting to this deck for SCG Dallas in August.

CroSS.24
04-22-2014, 08:05 PM
I now have 2 top 8's in the last 2 scg opens I have played in. I have played 0 discard spells in both lists SCG Columbus (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62695) and SCG Detroit (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66549). Stifle has won me a ton of games, by stifling a fetch or just using stifle as a utility card. It has out performed all of my expectations. I can't argue with the hymn or thoughtseize lists as they have their own merits. I am just not a fan of discard in this deck. I would rather my opponent waste his mana to not be able to resolve his spells. Counter spells to me just seem like a time walk. I will be playing a list very close to the that one I used in Detroit for SCG Cincinnati. I have some new ideas for my list. And as for liliana, I think she is a great planeswalker when paired with discard. In my list she would basically be a 3 mana chainers edict.

iostream
04-22-2014, 09:58 PM
I now have 2 top 8's in the last 2 scg opens I have played in. I have played 0 discard spells in both lists SCG Columbus (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62695) and SCG Detroit (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66549). Stifle has won me a ton of games, by stifling a fetch or just using stifle as a utility card. It has out performed all of my expectations. I can't argue with the hymn or thoughtseize lists as they have their own merits. I am just not a fan of discard in this deck. I would rather my opponent waste his mana to not be able to resolve his spells. Counter spells to me just seem like a time walk. I will be playing a list very close to the that one I used in Detroit for SCG Cincinnati. I have some new ideas for my list. And as for liliana, I think she is a great planeswalker when paired with discard. In my list she would basically be a 3 mana chainers edict.
I think once people wise up to the fact that they have to play around Stifle versus you, you will find that Stifle's effectiveness will decrease. From my RUG days, I know that Stifle just feels awful against an opponent who knows it might be coming.

defector
04-22-2014, 11:18 PM
@CroSS.24: Congrats on the high finishes. You've really gone old school back to when Team America was the Stifle deck of legacy. I'm much more a midrange Aggro-Control player than a straight up tempo player and your deck is way too tempo for my play style, but that's me. Good luck with the next event and if you put sink holes in and top 8 I'll buy you a pack of Nyx:)
I do like the Spell Pierce main. I look at our rival in American Delver and I think we are playing similar games except that thoughtseize does for us what spell pierce does for them. Both are very good cards, but I'm going to try the discard path for now.
cheers
defector

KobeBryan
04-22-2014, 11:48 PM
If you win with sinkholes MD, I'll give you my extra FOW

CroSS.24
04-23-2014, 12:04 AM
I might have to go back to one of my old lists that ran sinkholes. an extra force might be worth it.

Dragonslayer_90
04-23-2014, 07:28 AM
I think once people wise up to the fact that they have to play around Stifle versus you, you will find that Stifle's effectiveness will decrease. From my RUG days, I know that Stifle just feels awful against an opponent who knows it might be coming.

I'm sure CroSS.24 is benefiting from the fact that most people only know about the discard heavy versions of Team America and thus don't play around Stifle at first when they see T1 U. Sea Deathrite. However, I know him in real life and that he's a pretty good player. Thus, I think he's doing something right, though I disagree with some of his deck building choices still. Considering a slightly different build from what CroSS.24 Top 8 'ed with for Cinci, though that is highly dependent upon if I can even get Stifles to borrow for the event.

blablub
04-23-2014, 09:09 AM
Hey Guys, i've just read that someone has success with a Stifle-Build, here is my try:

3 Drs
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pierce
3 Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember

18 Lands

SB:
1 Cage
2 Extraction
1 Bitterblossom
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
3 Flusterstorm
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pierce

I love Playin Rug Delver and the bUrg deck becomes too greedy for me, so i try build Dark-*****, i hope it might work without the reach of Bolts.
I'm not sure about the creature suite, I dont wanna play 14-16 creatures, i think its too much. i think also too much cc2 creatures are not so good if you wanna hold up stifle, so i think Confidant isn't good, but im not sure. what do you think?

Barbed Blightning
04-23-2014, 10:12 AM
Hey Guys, i've just read that someone has success with a Stifle-Build, here is my try:

3 Drs
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pierce
3 Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember

18 Lands

SB:
1 Cage
2 Extraction
1 Bitterblossom
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
3 Flusterstorm
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pierce

I love Playin Rug Delver and the bUrg deck becomes too greedy for me, so i try build Dark-*****, i hope it might work without the reach of Bolts.
I'm not sure about the creature suite, I dont wanna play 14-16 creatures, i think its too much. i think also too much cc2 creatures are not so good if you wanna hold up stifle, so i think Confidant isn't good, but im not sure. what do you think?

You lost me at fewer than four DRS

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

blablub
04-23-2014, 10:37 AM
jeah, this might be not right, as i said, im not sure

another creaturebase i had in mind was this: 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Mungo, 2 True Name

Barbed Blightning
04-23-2014, 10:38 AM
jeah, this might be not right, as i said, im not sure

another creaturebase i had in mind was this: 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Mungo, 2 True Name

Why play goose at all? Goyf is superior

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Dragonslayer_90
04-23-2014, 10:57 AM
Why play goose at all? Goyf is superior

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I think he might be porting his creature base over from BURG. I don't like playing Deathrite Shaman and Mungos together but that's just purely based off the anti-synergy between the two. Might be worth a try if it works in BURG lists. Like Barbed Blightning I think Tarmogoyf is a better creature than Mongoose. However Mongoose being a one drop threat seems significant since lower cost threats are better in a more draw-go lists that play stifle and spell pierce.

defector
04-23-2014, 11:57 AM
The creature base in my opinion is very close to ideal: 4DRS 4 Goyf 4 Delver. The only real debate in my mind is what the last two slots should be. Tombstalker is great, but interferes with both Goyf and DRS. Bob is great but add control/draw and not a lot of threats in a deck that is a little threat light. True Name is great, but pushes a deck to cast 2-6 BB spells with Lilli and/or hymn and UU with the true names. I have tried all three at least cursorily and am currently running two Bobs. I like it but I'm not saying its the best as all three approaches have strengths and weaknesses.
cheers
defector

Barbed Blightning
04-23-2014, 12:32 PM
The creature base in my opinion is very close to ideal: 4DRS 4 Goyf 4 Delver. The only real debate in my mind is what the last two slots should be. Tombstalker is great, but interferes with both Goyf and DRS. Bob is great but add control/draw and not a lot of threats in a deck that is a little threat light. True Name is great, but pushes a deck to cast 2-6 BB spells with Lilli and/or hymn and UU with the true names. I have tried all three at least cursorily and am currently running two Bobs. I like it but I'm not saying its the best as all three approaches have strengths and weaknesses.
cheers
defector

I've hedged my bets and gone with one TNN and one Bob (or Tombstalker if the meta is more Jund/Combo) and like the feel of it. Both are solid "answer this or die" threats and TNN helps keep the FoW blue count healthy.

The only thing that sucks is golgari charm hitting my dudes. :/

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

blablub
04-23-2014, 12:45 PM
The main issue with the normal Team-America Creature-base is the Miracle MatchUp, because if you have no shroud its pretty easy for them :) that's why i wanna play a Canadian-Style Deck. Also with my Deck i wanna be reactive, so its better to play the cheaper creatures

Purgatory
04-23-2014, 01:02 PM
The main issue with the normal Team-America Creature-base is the Miracle MatchUp, because if you have no shroud its pretty easy for them :) that's why i wanna play a Canadian-Style Deck. Also with my Deck i wanna be reactive, so its better to play the cheaper creatures

I like the list quite a bit, and I'm a big fan of Stifle. However, the game plan of a BUG deck featuring maindeck Stifles, Spell Pierces, Mongeese etc. will be radically different from the tap-out style of Team America, and as such, might not belong in this thread for discussion. I like the list quite a bit, and I've already taken it for a couple of spins around Cockatrice. Not sure if it's better than RUG, though I'm also quite sure it's not, at least not since it's a rough list.

carnifex
04-23-2014, 01:54 PM
@Cross.24: curious to hear about your new ideas, unless you're trying to preserve your secret tech.

KobeBryan
04-23-2014, 02:13 PM
Should we dedicate sideboard space (over 5 cards) to fight miracles or should we just punt the matchup and focus on beating the more 50/50 matchups?

I've been using 1 null rod, 2 cliques, 1 creeping tarpit, 3 spell pierces, 1 pithing needle and I am still having a hard time fighting miracles. Do you think its time to just give up on it?

btm10
04-23-2014, 02:55 PM
Zur's Weirding is excellent against Miracles, as areTrygon Predator, Krosan Grip, Winter Orb, and True-Name Nemesis. Some bulids/players will board out all enchantments against you, but if they do then they aren't using Rest in Peace, which can be a beating if your non-Goyf, non-DRS threats are just 2 Clique, 4 Delver, some number of Bobs. I've only played against Miracles a few times, but it doesn't seem that unfavorable, and I'm not boarding all of these cards.

Barbed Blightning
04-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Zur's Weirding is excellent against Miracles, as areTrygon Predator, Krosan Grip, Winter Orb, and True-Name Nemesis. Some bulids/players will board out all enchantments against you, but if they do then they aren't using Rest in Peace, which can be a beating if your non-Goyf, non-DRS threats are just 2 Clique, 4 Delver, some number of Bobs. I've only played against Miracles a few times, but it doesn't seem that unfavorable, and I'm not boarding all of these cards.

+1 to K Grip. Weirding sounds cool (again, this is my inner Timmy speaking) but I wonder if anyone has had success with the card

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

btm10
04-23-2014, 04:28 PM
In my experience, the BUG matchup against RUG is quite favorable. However, I think the fact that the primer advocates cutting two Hymns indicates that my understanding of the matchup is quite different from that of the primer's author. RUG is an excellent aggressive deck, and so the BUG deck is cast into the control role. BUG is forced to establish its manabase, while using its removal spells to halt the initial rush of the RUG player.

BUG has 24 total mana sources, while RUG has only 18. That's a huge difference, meaning that the RUG player's one-for-one Wastelands aren't very exciting. At the same time, while RUG has no good means of removing Tarmogoyf maindeck, BUG has a set of Abrupt Decay as well as Lili. Lili is a crucial card in this matchup, and I play three. Likewise, while RUG has no means of generating card advantage beyond a well-placed Fire, BUG has Lili, Bob, and Hymn. Hymn is extremely important in this matchup. RUG has no extra land; a resolved Hymn against RUG is almost guaranteed to hit two relevant cards.

My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65172

With that list, I cut 3 Force and 2 (Thoughtseize/Daze depending on play or draw) for 2 Disfigure, 2 Submerge, and 1 Clique.

Rich

Rich Shay (quoted above) runs Weirding as a 1-of in his board and finished 2nd at an IQ earlier this month.

Sturtzilla
04-23-2014, 04:31 PM
+1 to K Grip. Weirding sounds cool (again, this is my inner Timmy speaking) but I wonder if anyone has had success with the card

Rich Shay won an SCG IQ with a BUG Delver deck with a 1-of Weirding in the sideboard. He posted it a few pages back. Grip, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Weirding are all very good. Clique can also be pretty nice. I wouldn't say it is terrible but it can be a tough one. I am also a fan of Golgari Charm. It can be extra enchanment removal for RiP and Counterbalance while also Regening your guys through a Supreme Verdict.

Barbed Blightning
04-23-2014, 07:02 PM
Rich Shay won an SCG IQ with a BUG Delver deck with a 1-of Weirding in the sideboard. He posted it a few pages back. Grip, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Weirding are all very good. Clique can also be pretty nice. I wouldn't say it is terrible but it can be a tough one. I am also a fan of Golgari Charm. It can be extra enchanment removal for RiP and Counterbalance while also Regening your guys through a Supreme Verdict.

Same, I'll probably be doing a SB along the lines of:

2 charm
2 disfigure
1 deluge
1 cage
3 pierce
1 force
1 grip
1 needle
1 Clique/flex
1 weirding/flex
2 thoughtseize/flex (if I do 3 hymn, 2 thoughtseize main, which I am trying to figure out now)

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Barbed Blightning
04-23-2014, 07:03 PM
Same, I'll probably be doing a SB along the lines of:

2 charm
2 disfigure
1 deluge
1 cage
3 pierce
1 force
1 grip
1 needle
1 Clique/flex
1 weirding/flex
2 thoughtseize/flex (if I do 3 hymn, 2 thoughtseize main, which I am trying to figure out now)

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Nice double post, phone.

zenzog
04-24-2014, 12:06 PM
Should we dedicate sideboard space (over 5 cards) to fight miracles or should we just punt the matchup and focus on beating the more 50/50 matchups?

I've been using 1 null rod, 2 cliques, 1 creeping tarpit, 3 spell pierces, 1 pithing needle and I am still having a hard time fighting miracles. Do you think its time to just give up on it?

I have to play at least one miracles list every week, occasionally two, and I've only been winning games recently because I switched from tombstalkers to dark confidants and putting a sylvan library in the mainboard. My SB plan is roughly as follows:

-2 abrupt decay
-1 wasteland
-4 daze
-1 force of will

+2 golgari charm
+1 krosan grip
+2 vendilion clique
+1 liliana of the veil
+1 hymn to tourach
+1 envelop

Sometimes I'll board the dazes in on the play, but I find that they almost always keep 1 mana open for top anyway it's only decent in a counter war, but they have flusterstorms and rebs too. Spell pierce is less than ideal for the same reason... my opponents can/will freely play around daze and pierce.

I'm also very careful to not commit too many creatures to the board. Zur's weirding and winter orb are two other options I've considered, but I don't know what I'd take out.

KobeBryan
04-24-2014, 01:27 PM
I have to play at least one miracles list every week, occasionally two, and I've only been winning games recently because I switched from tombstalkers to dark confidants and putting a sylvan library in the mainboard. My SB plan is roughly as follows:

-2 abrupt decay
-1 wasteland
-4 daze
-1 force of will

+2 golgari charm
+1 krosan grip
+2 vendilion clique
+1 liliana of the veil
+1 hymn to tourach
+1 envelop

Sometimes I'll board the dazes in on the play, but I find that they almost always keep 1 mana open for top anyway it's only decent in a counter war, but they have flusterstorms and rebs too. Spell pierce is less than ideal for the same reason... my opponents can/will freely play around daze and pierce.

I'm also very careful to not commit too many creatures to the board. Zur's weirding and winter orb are two other options I've considered, but I don't know what I'd take out.

Miracles is certainly beatable...dont' get me wrong, but to beat it consistently against someone like joe lossett, we need a better sideboard plan. So is it worth it?

zenzog
04-24-2014, 04:41 PM
Miracles is certainly beatable...dont' get me wrong, but to beat it consistently against someone like joe lossett, we need a better sideboard plan. So is it worth it?

I don't think we'll ever be heavily favored against Miracles, if that's where you want to be.
I'm going based on your 4/19 decklist and I think Hymn is better than Thoughtseize against Miracles. Also, maybe your 3rd spell pierce could be an envelop.
I like 1 Null Rod / Pithing Needle + Krosan Grip over 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, too.

KobeBryan
04-24-2014, 04:42 PM
I don't think we'll ever be heavily favored against Miracles, if that's where you want to be.
I'm going based on your 4/19 decklist and I think Hymn is better than Thoughtseize against Miracles. Also, maybe your 3rd spell pierce could be an envelop.
I like 1 Null Rod / Pithing Needle + Krosan Grip over 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, too.

Discard is not good against miracles. Its the top deck that you need to control

zenzog
04-24-2014, 04:56 PM
Discard is not good against miracles. Its the top deck that you need to control

Well, then by all means jam more null rods and pithing needles.

I'm just relaying what I feel has done well for me against Miracles and I find that Hymn is still a great card.

Barbed Blightning
04-24-2014, 04:57 PM
Well, then by all means jam more null rods and pithing needles.

I'm just relaying what I feel has done well for me against Miracles and I find that Hymn is still a great card.

Especially when it hits two lands :)

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

amalek0
04-24-2014, 05:08 PM
Miracles is certainly beatable...dont' get me wrong, but to beat it consistently against someone like joe lossett, we need a better sideboard plan. So is it worth it?

To be fair, to consistently beat someone like Joe Lossett, you also have to be good at legacy period. Mind games and planning matter at that level of play =)

nitewolf9
04-24-2014, 06:16 PM
And supposedly...Joe was born in a mental institution. And he sleeps only one hour a night.

He's a great man.

rlesko
04-25-2014, 12:22 AM
Hi guys...new to the deck, initially started with a 4 of everything list - 4 brainstorm / daze / abrupt decay / ponder / thoughtseize / FoW / DRS / Goyf / Delver / wasteland /// 2 bob / lilli /// 16 land

but I'm thinking of shaving a FoW, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and Ponder for 2 Disfigure (yes, 2 main) and 2 Hymn (relegating the 4th fow, AD, and thoughtseize to the SB). Would the inclusion of disfigure be too crazy in the main board? I think I like the versatility of it for things like Bob, Mom, delver, SFM, bob, etc. the sideboard would be mostly dedicated to combo, miracles, and dredge. if anyone has any experience running a list like this please let me know!

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 12:39 AM
Hi guys...new to the deck, initially started with a 4 of everything list - 4 brainstorm / daze / abrupt decay / ponder / thoughtseize / FoW / DRS / Goyf / Delver / wasteland /// 2 bob / lilli /// 16 land

but I'm thinking of shaving a FoW, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and Ponder for 2 Disfigure (yes, 2 main) and 2 Hymn (relegating the 4th fow, AD, and thoughtseize to the SB). Would the inclusion of disfigure be too crazy in the main board? I think I like the versatility of it for things like Bob, Mom, delver, SFM, bob, etc. the sideboard would be mostly dedicated to combo, miracles, and dredge. if anyone has any experience running a list like this please let me know!

Lots of people have...it ups the instant/sorc count for delver flips, helps with MD creature decks.

But you better pack some hate against combo with 6 destroy spells.

Give up on miracles. A moderately competent player can beat this deck.

dredge...you don't need too much. maybe a cage, and some surgicals...ask esper how he felt with only 1 surgical in his board.

phazonmutant
04-25-2014, 01:49 AM
Hi guys...new to the deck, initially started with a 4 of everything list - 4 brainstorm / daze / abrupt decay / ponder / thoughtseize / FoW / DRS / Goyf / Delver / wasteland /// 2 bob / lilli /// 16 land

but I'm thinking of shaving a FoW, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and Ponder for 2 Disfigure (yes, 2 main) and 2 Hymn (relegating the 4th fow, AD, and thoughtseize to the SB). Would the inclusion of disfigure be too crazy in the main board? I think I like the versatility of it for things like Bob, Mom, delver, SFM, bob, etc. the sideboard would be mostly dedicated to combo, miracles, and dredge. if anyone has any experience running a list like this please let me know!

I literally won a SCG Open with 2 Disfigures in the main. It's on the internet, along with an article about why it's not terrible.


Give up on miracles. A moderately competent player can beat this deck.

dredge...you don't need too much. maybe a cage, and some surgicals...ask esper how he felt with only 1 surgical in his board.

That's some bullshit advice. When we ran 4x Sinkhole in the sideboard, Miracles was easily 60-65% in our favor. When we ran 2 Winter Orb in the board, Miracles was still favorable (I didn't play too much with that plan, not sure on percentages). Now that we have neither, Miracles has dropped to a mere even matchup. Learn to play against Miracles. It's easy to lose to them, but you can definitely beat them if you know how to.

I'm actually pretty afraid to play Dredge. I've lost to it several times with TA, although rarely with other Delver builds. Deathrite is a speedbump and Surgical is a timewalk at most. Our discard is fairly bad (Thoughtseize is decent though), and we don't have Swords or Stile to deal with their Narcs and Ichorids.

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 01:56 AM
I literally won a SCG Open with 2 Disfigures in the main. It's on the internet, along with an article about why it's not terrible.



That's some bullshit advice. When we ran 4x Sinkhole in the sideboard, Miracles was easily 60-65% in our favor. When we ran 2 Winter Orb in the board, Miracles was still favorable (I didn't play too much with that plan, not sure on percentages). Now that we have neither, Miracles has dropped to a mere even matchup. Learn to play against Miracles. It's easy to lose to them, but you can definitely beat them if you know how to.

I'm actually pretty afraid to play Dredge. I've lost to it several times with TA, although rarely with other Delver builds. Deathrite is a speedbump and Surgical is a timewalk at most. Our discard is fairly bad (Thoughtseize is decent though), and we don't have Swords or Stile to deal with their Narcs and Ichorids.

Dredge is definitely beatable. Focus the surgicals on the bridge. Your DRS and cage can take care of the recurring creatures. You have counters against them to stop the big draw cards.

Miracles is the much much harder matchup to win against. Discard sucks against them, your decays aren't that great, and you don't have that many creatures to keep up with their removals, unlike bant, which has a much easier match than TA because of more pressure.

I dont' think you are playing good miracle players. A decent miracles player will beat TA

Valtrix
04-25-2014, 02:02 AM
Rich Shay (quoted above) runs Weirding as a 1-of in his board and finished 2nd at an IQ earlier this month.

Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

phazonmutant
04-25-2014, 02:04 AM
Dredge is definitely beatable.
So? I didn't say otherwise, just that I wouldn't say it's a matchup where "you don't need too much". If I expected to play against Dredge, I would add at least 2 non-Surgical grave hate spells. The current plan is dodge good dredge players and mise.


Miracles is the much much harder matchup to win against. Discard sucks against them

Except for Hymn, which I seem to recall you've cut from your list. They still need to play lands and spells, things Hymn is good against.


your decays aren't that great
...What?


you don't have that many creatures to keep up with their removals

13-15 creatures + 2 Liliana + Sylvan + whatever random lock pieces is actually quite a lot of threats. Sure they can answer various ones with different removal or hate cards, but you force them to have the answer before they die. That doesn't always happen.


unlike bant, which has a much easier match than TA

Bant what? Hey look, a red herring.

Edit: reply to Valtrix

Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

I think he's talking about Zur's Weirding. It's cute, but I don't see why it would be better than Jace.

Bitterblossom is a sweet one! Good suggestion. I realize that it's the opinion of many people on the Miracles thread (especially the Germans, it seems), but my experience has just never been like that. Sure, I've definitely lost matches to them, and I wouldn't say that it's a matchup I'd prefer to face, but "good majority of the time"? That seems excessive. There seem to be too many Miracles draws that are nonbasic-heavy or just plain awkward that TA can easily interact with to say that it's grossly unfavored.

sdematt
04-25-2014, 02:17 AM
Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

Because if I understand Wierding correctly, it literally says: "Target Miracle player reveals Entreat the Angels. Would you like to pay 2 life to have them not draw that card now?"

-Matt

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 02:49 AM
So? I didn't say otherwise, just that I wouldn't say it's a matchup where "you don't need too much". If I expected to play against Dredge, I would add at least 2 non-Surgical grave hate spells. The current plan is dodge good dredge players and mise.



Except for Hymn, which I seem to recall you've cut from your list. They still need to play lands and spells, things Hymn is good against.


...What?



13-15 creatures + 2 Liliana + Sylvan + whatever random lock pieces is actually quite a lot of threats. Sure they can answer various ones with different removal or hate cards, but you force them to have the answer before they die. That doesn't always happen.



Bant what? Hey look, a red herring.

Edit: reply to Valtrix


I think he's talking about Zur's Weirding. It's cute, but I don't see why it would be better than Jace.

Bitterblossom is a sweet one! Good suggestion. I realize that it's the opinion of many people on the Miracles thread (especially the Germans, it seems), but my experience has just never been like that. Sure, I've definitely lost matches to them, and I wouldn't say that it's a matchup I'd prefer to face, but "good majority of the time"? That seems excessive. There seem to be too many Miracles draws that are nonbasic-heavy or just plain awkward that TA can easily interact with to say that it's grossly unfavored.

This deck runs 14 creatures, 2 of which you take out game 2, leaving it to 12. Miracles runs 4 terminus, 4 plows, counters, supreme verdict. If you watched espers match against joe losset, you can tell he didn't have enough things to do the final damage. Hence goblins is a much better matchup against miracles. Esper will say the same about the lack of pressure.

Abrupt decays are not that useful. What cards does miracle bring to the board? 1 creature at most, sensei, which you can't really decay, and counter balance. People side out counter balance against TA...in fact, we side out abrupt decays against miracles as it is one of the more useless cards. The card we use is golgari charm to kill the rest in peace, counter balance, and to save our creatures from a supreme verdict.

Whether you are playing thoughtseize or hymn, discard in general isn't a good card for a long grinder. Miracles operates on the topdeck, not things in their hands...watch espers match against joe.

Red herring...no. Its an example how a deck with more pressure would be a better matchup against miracles. A proactive deck compared to a reactive deck. Explains why you had more success running 4 sinkholes before

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 02:51 AM
Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

Problem with bitterblossom is that it will be used only against the miracles matchup and nothing else. Lousy side board card unless you play miracles 4 out of 6 matches or something

Barbed Blightning
04-25-2014, 03:13 AM
This deck runs 14 creatures, 2 of which you take out game 2, leaving it to 12.

Idk.... I like to leave Bob and/or TNN in against miracles. And what about V Clique. Anyway, tbh, it just sounds like you should practice vs Miracles more, maybe challenge some of your theories on the matchup (such as Decay not being good; like, dafuq?)

Bitterblossom? Damn I love the sick cards this deck can play!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Valtrix
04-25-2014, 03:17 AM
Oh sorry, I was thinking of the wrong weirding, my bad. I should have definitely looked into that more.

I mean, yes Bitterblossom is narrow, but it's also immensely powerful in that matchups. If you're in a large(ish) tournament, then you should probably prepare to deal with Miracles. Devoting 1-2 slots just for one matchup, that you'll almost certainly have to play against, does not seem out of line at all. Part of why Miracles is so strong is that there are very few hate cards for it (in the sense of, "You probably should answer this or you likely just lose"). I think Bitterblossom is actually one of those few cards (as long as you get it in a reasonable time frame).

Barbed Blightning
04-25-2014, 03:45 AM
Oh sorry, I was thinking of the wrong weirding, my bad. I should have definitely looked into that more.

I mean, yes Bitterblossom is narrow, but it's also immensely powerful in that matchups. If you're in a large(ish) tournament, then you should probably prepare to deal with Miracles. Devoting 1-2 slots just for one matchup, that you'll almost certainly have to play against, does not seem out of line at all. Part of why Miracles is so strong is that there are very few hate cards for it (in the sense of, "You probably should answer this or you likely just lose"). I think Bitterblossom is actually one of those few cards (as long as you get it in a reasonable time frame).

It's not much different than packing Tormods Crypt for Dredge (yes, there are other matches where it is relevant, but it is there for Dredge).

I like BB; it's worth a single slot, imo

Any thoughts on the miracles list packing SFM and Batterskull in the side?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Valtrix
04-25-2014, 03:53 AM
You can't board against the SFM package in the side unfortunately. It's why Miracles even runs it, because the ways to deal with all suck against that deck. (Nice creature removal, you want to get this Snapcaster? Clique?). Even if you abrupt decay SFM (which is awkward), it's very likely they will just drag the game until they can play 5 lands and hard cast it. I would just not plan for it and hope they don't have it. Fortunately for you guys, it's not a super popular SB option for players. (maybe 1/3 I'd say).

Barbed Blightning
04-25-2014, 10:00 AM
You can't board against the SFM package in the side unfortunately. It's why Miracles even runs it, because the ways to deal with all suck against that deck. (Nice creature removal, you want to get this Snapcaster? Clique?). Even if you abrupt decay SFM (which is awkward), it's very likely they will just drag the game until they can play 5 lands and hard cast it. I would just not plan for it and hope they don't have it. Fortunately for you guys, it's not a super popular SB option for players. (maybe 1/3 I'd say).

It's pretty clever, despite Decay's awkwardness I think we still are better equipped for it than, say, UWR. Lilly and Grip help.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 10:29 AM
Idk.... I like to leave Bob and/or TNN in against miracles. And what about V Clique. Anyway, tbh, it just sounds like you should practice vs Miracles more, maybe challenge some of your theories on the matchup (such as Decay not being good; like, dafuq?)

Bitterblossom? Damn I love the sick cards this deck can play!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Lets have esper chim in with his matchup against Joe and his sideboarding. I know he took out decays

You probably take 1 goyf out to lessen the graveyard dependency

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 10:36 AM
You can't board against the SFM package in the side unfortunately. It's why Miracles even runs it, because the ways to deal with all suck against that deck. (Nice creature removal, you want to get this Snapcaster? Clique?). Even if you abrupt decay SFM (which is awkward), it's very likely they will just drag the game until they can play 5 lands and hard cast it. I would just not plan for it and hope they don't have it. Fortunately for you guys, it's not a super popular SB option for players. (maybe 1/3 I'd say).

Why would miracles bring that in. It's not like miracles even need to sideboard against us. If anything max two cards.

Einherjer
04-25-2014, 10:48 AM
KobeBryan... stop it... please.

rlesko
04-25-2014, 11:23 AM
As others have said - Dredge laughs at a single DRS. It can easily be played through by overwhelming the GY. If you don't respect that deck it will crush you.

I used to play RUG, then UWr, and now I'm going to play BUG because of the boogeyman (miracles). I thought with Abrupt Decay the match up would be a lot better than what you guys are saying it is, because I haven't tested it extensively.

Do we really not want the full suite of 4 abrupt decay / Do they really side out counterbalance against us? I usually cut all my dazes because the good players play around it anyways and they have like 7 basics. As others have said I have mixed feelings about the discard - what is the proper number of discard spells to leave in post board? But I do know I don't want to shave ANY of the creatures...we need every last threat. I'm not even sure I want to cut the disfigures because they have Venser (BIG problem CMC > 3) and Clique. I was thinking

-4 Daze, -2 Discard (Hymn or Seize?)
+1 Envelop, +1 Abrupt Decay (only running 3 main), +1 Sylvan, +1 Spell Pierce, +2 Golgari Charm

phazonmutant
04-25-2014, 11:46 AM
As others have said - Dredge laughs at a single DRS. It can easily be played through by overwhelming the GY. If you don't respect that deck it will crush you.

I used to play RUG, then UWr, and now I'm going to play BUG because of the boogeyman (miracles). I thought with Abrupt Decay the match up would be a lot better than what you guys are saying it is, because I haven't tested it extensively.

Do we really not want the full suite of 4 abrupt decay / Do they really side out counterbalance against us? I usually cut all my dazes because the good players play around it anyways and they have like 7 basics. As others have said I have mixed feelings about the discard - what is the proper number of discard spells to leave in post board? But I do know I don't want to shave ANY of the creatures...we need every last threat. I'm not even sure I want to cut the disfigures because they have Venser (BIG problem CMC > 3) and Clique. I was thinking

-4 Daze, -2 Discard (Hymn or Seize?)
+1 Envelop, +1 Abrupt Decay (only running 3 main), +1 Sylvan, +1 Spell Pierce, +2 Golgari Charm

I think the Miracles matchup is one of the real skill-testers in the format, just like Maverick vs. Thresh used to be. Both sides say it's favorable and it's very responsive to experience.

People do side out Counterbalance and don't bring in Rest in Peace - first I heard about that plan was from Einherjer's article after GP Paris, and I've seen/heard about oarsman trying it out too. I think that plan is awful. Sure, we have Decays, but Counterbalance is still devastating against us, and RiP is fine. The idea of stranding cards in TA's hand is just not worth losing trump cards, and besides, Miracles plays creatures that Decay can kill.

Don't side out Hymn. Even though the matchup isn't really about card advantage, resolving Hymn hurts their ability to function pretty much no matter what you hit. I'm not sold on boarding in Charm. It's good if they have several Verdicts, but if they do that then you shouldn't keep all 4 Decays. The only time I definitely would bring it in is if you know they have both Counterbalance and several Rest in Peace.

Bring in Clique if you have it, Winter Orb if you have it, etc.

btm10
04-25-2014, 12:01 PM
I think he's talking about Zur's Weirding. It's cute, but I don't see why it would be better than Jace.

Bitterblossom is a sweet one! Good suggestion. I realize that it's the opinion of many people on the Miracles thread (especially the Germans, it seems), but my experience has just never been like that. Sure, I've definitely lost matches to them, and I wouldn't say that it's a matchup I'd prefer to face, but "good majority of the time"? That seems excessive. There seem to be too many Miracles draws that are nonbasic-heavy or just plain awkward that TA can easily interact with to say that it's grossly unfavored.

I think Bitterblossom definitely sounds good. I'm going to have to test it.


As others have said - Dredge laughs at a single DRS. It can easily be played through by overwhelming the GY. If you don't respect that deck it will crush you.

I used to play RUG, then UWr, and now I'm going to play BUG because of the boogeyman (miracles). I thought with Abrupt Decay the match up would be a lot better than what you guys are saying it is, because I haven't tested it extensively.

Do we really not want the full suite of 4 abrupt decay / Do they really side out counterbalance against us? I usually cut all my dazes because the good players play around it anyways and they have like 7 basics. As others have said I have mixed feelings about the discard - what is the proper number of discard spells to leave in post board? But I do know I don't want to shave ANY of the creatures...we need every last threat. I'm not even sure I want to cut the disfigures because they have Venser (BIG problem CMC > 3) and Clique. I was thinking

-4 Daze, -2 Discard (Hymn or Seize?)
+1 Envelop, +1 Abrupt Decay (only running 3 main), +1 Sylvan, +1 Spell Pierce, +2 Golgari Charm

IMO, you want at least 1 Clique of your own against Miracles. It diversifies your threats away from the graveyard so that you aren't hit as hard by Rest in Peace, and it's great to boot. Krosan Grip is also excellent because it can actually destroy Top as well as being a 5th uncounterable way to destroy RiP and Counterbalance. Most builds of Miracles/Miracles players seem to board at least 1 CB out, and I've seen several leave 1 (but only one) in if they were light on SB options. Beyond Grip and Clique (and maybe Sylvan) how you board is determined by where you want to be in the matchup. I don't like Jace over Weirding a ton because Zur's Weirding shuts off their truly explosive plays like Entreat and Terminus at their Miracle costs, doesn't require UU, and forces you to play more slowly when you're definitely the beatdown. Weirding is essentially one-sided by the time it comes down because they should be at a low enough life total that they'll only get a few chances to say 'no' before they die to your board, and Bob and Sylvan enable you to just see so many cards that you should be able to make a threat stick. I like keeping at least 3 AD in because they aren't boarding SCM or Clique out against you even if they bring CB out, and they're definitely bringing RiP in, so you want the removal. Liliana is insane in the Miracles matchup, but your other discard is going to be dependent on exactly the lines you want available. I go back and forth on the Hymn in general, but it's very good against Miracles because it can hit lands, though most Miracles players are smart enough to float their most valuable cards with Top no matter what discard you're running. Thoughtseize is obviously especially strong against the Stoneforge package.

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 12:07 PM
KobeBryan... stop it... please.

Don't troll. You are underestimating the power of miracles. Any competent player can beat us. Maybe those who claim to be able to beat miracles are playing against scrubs.

Einherjer
04-25-2014, 12:13 PM
Don't troll. You are underestimating the power of miracles. Any competent player can beat us. Maybe those who claim to be able to beat miracles are playing against scrubs.

Are you being serious?

Oh dear god, and I thought you were just a horrible player... Turns out nobody should be taking you serious in any way... Leave, just leave and don't disturb the discussion any further please.

@BUG-Thread. Sorry for interrupting here, but this was just hillarious. As an compensation I'd gladly help you out if I can. You are still discussing the Miracles-MU? Are there any points you want me to help you with, in special?

Greetings

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 12:17 PM
I think the Miracles matchup is one of the real skill-testers in the format, just like Maverick vs. Thresh used to be. Both sides say it's favorable and it's very responsive to experience.

People do side out Counterbalance and don't bring in Rest in Peace - first I heard about that plan was from Einherjer's article after GP Paris, and I've seen/heard about oarsman trying it out too. I think that plan is awful. Sure, we have Decays, but Counterbalance is still devastating against us, and RiP is fine. The idea of stranding cards in TA's hand is just not worth losing trump cards, and besides, Miracles plays creatures that Decay can kill.

Don't side out Hymn. Even though the matchup isn't really about card advantage, resolving Hymn hurts their ability to function pretty much no matter what you hit. I'm not sold on boarding in Charm. It's good if they have several Verdicts, but if they do that then you shouldn't keep all 4 Decays. The only time I definitely would bring it in is if you know they have both Counterbalance and several Rest in Peace.

Bring in Clique if you have it, Winter Orb if you have it, etc.

Why would they not bring in rip. It stops 8 of our cards. Two cards from their board stops 8 of ours.

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 12:18 PM
Are you being serious?

Oh dear god, and I thought you were just a horrible player... Turns out nobody should be taking you serious in any way... Leave, just leave and don't disturb the discussion any further please.

@BUG-Thread. Sorry for interrupting here, but this was just hillarious. As an compensation I'd gladly help you out if I can. You are still discussing the Miracles-MU? Are there any points you want me to help you with, in special?

Greetings

Go on camera at scg and play against a top table miracles. Not some scrub at the low end. Use ta and play against urself and tell us the results

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 12:42 PM
Dafuq is wrong with you? Seriously. You're painting yourself to be an idiot and a dumbass. Just stop.

Einherjer made Top 4 at GP Paris playing Miracles. He knows a thing or two about playing Miracles and what its weaknesses are.

Yes. And miracles is not easy. We all know that. Every deck has a weakness. Yet this deck doesnt stop a competent pilot

Sturtzilla
04-25-2014, 12:47 PM
Don't troll. You are underestimating the power of miracles. Any competent player can beat us. Maybe those who claim to be able to beat miracles are playing against scrubs.

I don't have an exact number of the times I have played against Miracles. It is easily 10+ matches and I have only lost once and drew once. So that would be something like 8-1-1 at least. The match I drew I would have won but we timed out. I don't think the match is as hard as you are painting it to be. With Decays, Hymns, and Charms alone it is pretty easy. Pithing Needle, Null Rod and Zur's Weirding all give us a lot of game as well. Their cards may be more powerful when played correctly, but we have lots of ways to trip them up when it comes to sequencing. Forcing, Thoughtseizing, Needling/Roding Tops is insane against them. It really shuts down their deck. Furthermore if you can land something like Weirding or Winter Orb they end up being in a world of hurt.

Einherjer
04-25-2014, 12:52 PM
I think phazonmutant nailed the topic pretty well when he said that it's a very skill intense match, and both sides claim it to be positive. But what does positive mean? I am well aware that I called this MU both positive and "easy" - yet this doesn't mean that Miracles beats TeamAmerica for 60 or more percent. This is just absurd. I think this MU is generally a 50/50 one, with the potential of being 55/45 and 45/55 - depending on how well the lists are prepared. Now let's look at a few deciding points:

1) Creatures #13+#14: Besides the obvious 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Delver of Secrets and 4 Tarmogoyf it is essential to know which creature you are going to play next, you all know this. Even though I always advise newer players to start at Dan Signorinis list I think that this very list is a little too old as of now. In a format that comes down to Miracles vs Team America at the top-tables Tombstalker isn't going to cut it. This creature is just utterly horrible against Miracles, and while I acknowledge its purposes in other MU this is where I'd avdise you to make your first switch, which should help you beat Miracles. I don't have enough experience with modern Team America (it's been a while since I played this) to tell you which creature is best - but both of the top-tier options look intriguing: Nemesis and Confidant.

2) Silverbullets in the mainboard: If you are concerned with the Miracles-MU it might be a good idea to rethink your choice of flexible slots. It's not like you are working with alot of them - but most lists still have them. Liliana of the Veil does not single handedly beat Miracles, but is an important part of winning. Try to keep her alive as long as possible, don't just sac her when she is at 6 counters. But also know when you have to stop as soon as you draw important disruption a'la Force of Will in the lategame, Vendilion Clique, Envelop or what have you. Other than that the good old Sylvan Library is a beast in this MU. Don't be afraid to draw as many cards as you want.

3) Playstyle: I have mentioned this already, but playing against Miracles is tough if you have no experience with the deck itself. At first you have to deploy one threat at a time, yet you should try and analyze the board-state as often as you can. "Will this one threat carry me to victory? Do I have back-up creatures/Cantrips to find it?" - basically it's correct to never counter a removal - spell and rather spend your ressources on finding more of them and countering Jace/Angels/Top. But should you have a hand that has just an overload of countermagic and no additional creatures/Cantrips - feel free to forgo this dogma and throw your disruption on those Swords/Terminus/Snappies. Yet again - this is the exception - but I see many people miss this.

4) Sideboarding: There are many ways of sideboarding, Miracles can either board out Balance and not board in RIP like I did/do - others can throw in all those enchantments they have, while others do a middle-stuff. You simply cannot know. That's why you should keep the full set of Abrupt Decay for the 2nd game. If you see Balance+RIP and you expect stuff like Blood Moon or stuff like Foundry, bring in those Charms.
Dazes are no good, don't have them in your deck any more.
Most of the time it's a good idea to board out the full set of Dazes and Wastelands. This gives you 8 slots to bring in everything your sideboard has. Screwing Miracles happens rarely - you need like Hymn, Waste and Needle for Top... so yeah - not gonna happen. Focus on trading effectively - and punish your opponent for playing too many lands (I don't do that anymore anyways hehe) and too less buisness.

5) Evil stuff: I know most of you know this cards already, but I'll write you down a list of cards you might want to consider when battling Miracles:
Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Maelstrom Pulse, Envelop, Dimir Charm, Counterspell, Golgari Charm, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, Krosan Grip, Creeping Tar Pit, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize and some more I can't think of now..


As said above, this MU depends greatly on how each player is prepared, and how well he/she is comfortable playing this game, without any experience battling Miracles BUG Delver will be crushed 1000:0 - this might be the reason why some complain about the MU being unwinable. But as soon as you know what to do it's not that bad anymore. But I doubt any side can get the MU above 55% against a competent player with a reasonably well built list.

I hope I could be of help. I think I covered everything you were discussing about... if I forgot anything and you'd like to hear my opinion on it - let me know.

Greetings

Dzra
04-25-2014, 01:02 PM
As a Miracles player, I would consider any Delver deck to be a pretty favorable matchup. That said though, Delver didn't get where it is by having any atrocious matchups. Any Delver deck is well equipped to win games on the back of mana denial and aggression coupled with permission. And with its access to Bob, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library, BUG Delver is better equipped to fight Miracles than RUG and UWR.

rlesko
04-25-2014, 01:31 PM
Most of the time it's a good idea to board out the full set of Dazes and Wastelands. This gives you 8 slots to bring in everything your sideboard has. Screwing Miracles happens rarely - you need like Hymn, Waste and Needle for Top... so yeah - not gonna happen. Focus on trading effectively - and punish your opponent for playing too many lands (I don't do that anymore anyways hehe) and too less buisness.


I am a little surprised about shaving ALL of the wastelands...its not worth it to leave in any for a Karakas? Otherwise, very insightful post. Thank you!

zenzog
04-25-2014, 01:58 PM
I am a little surprised about shaving ALL of the wastelands...its not worth it to leave in any for a Karakas? Otherwise, very insightful post. Thank you!

I usually cut one wasteland since having some answers to Karakas/clique/venser shenanigans is good, but I think the main purpose is still to try and snipe their duals. They'll fetch more basics after they realize what you're on, but they might still draw a dual or need to fetch a volcanic for red, or a tundra for double white.

Also, don't forget to clique them with the miracle trigger on the stack. :(

Einherjer
04-25-2014, 02:22 PM
Cutting 4 Wastelands is drastic, agreed. But look, my newest iteration of Miracles plays 1 land more than Team America does, and I'm not playing Llanowar Elves... eerghh Deathrite Shaman. Look, by cutting 4 Wastelands you have the option of trumping Miracles in card-quality, if you keep those 20 lands you'll get punished severly for not being able to control your draws with Sensei's Divining Top and Miracles will get the card-quality and you'll die... painfully. Unless you do everything else right, ofc :) You don't have to trust me, but you might have to agree that this logic sounds intriguing - and just test it on your own.

So, you want to keep Wasteland because you want to break up Karakas + Clique/Venser? Well, first of all Venser is bad. And Clique won't be in the postboarded deck in all lists. Thirdly Karakas is a 1of. And lastly, this "lock" isn't really devastating for you, so please don't worry about this one.

You want to keep Wasteland to nuke those Tundras and Volcanic Islands of mine? Well... there are 2 ways to develop a control-manabase when facing a Delver-Tempodeck.
1) Get those basics down: If everything goes according to plan you land Island, Plains, Island or Island Island Plains in the first three turns, followed by more basics or Fetchlands. Duals will be kept for sorcery-speed cards, will be shuffled away or will be deployed in a big fashion, so Wasteland won't save you - and it'll be too late.
2) One does not simply waste me: If your hand consists of duals only you'll just slam them one by another and fetch for additional ones - as your opponent can't have all the Wastelands. This plan crumbles to the 3-4 Wasteland-draw... but how often is this gonna happen? And while you spend your Wastelands doing kind of nothing Miracles can keep sculpting the hand/Top3.

You want to keep Wasteland for Volcanic Island in order to disable them from casting REB? Well, most Miracles-lists won't be bringing alot of REBs as long as they play no Mountain. And if they play a Mountain, well nice Wasteland once again :)

Greetings

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 02:32 PM
Thank you Einherjer. I appreciate your post. You can also add the fact that you shouldnt' waste counters in stopping your creatures from dying.

I would like to explain more now that I'm in front of a keyboard so I don't constantly keep getting flamed for my ideas.

First, I am not talking about playing this guy


Originally Posted by misty rainforest View Post
Hi, everyone. This is my first time post and I apologize to my poor English.
I always use miracles deck on little tournament but I can't win against RUG/BUG delver and Shardless BUG(or something deck like using Lilliana of the Vale.)
On this MU, how do I fight to them? And what is mention to the starting hand when using this deck?

or some random guy on cockatrice.

I'm talking about playing this guy:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROMb49gA8baYi6-ykJMF6T8i5B3fiuC4xhqXgZwj_XZqHZVqymDqjcQNI


Back to the original post, the poster asked what is a good sideboard option to play against miracles and dredge. I told him for dredge, having 4 drs, 1 cage, and 2 surgical has been sufficient for me. Then i said, do not place too many cards into the miracles matchup because its hard regardless.

Several posts later, people started suggesting bitterblossom, sinkholes, winter orbs, zurs wielding, to fight miracles, which are all great ideas, but not practical as if you bring it to a big tournament, its not going to be a helpful sideboard.

Unless you bring in ALL of these cards, you will not have a favorable matchup against miracles. Even if you dedicate your board with 4 sinkholes, 1 zurs wielding, your matchup isn't going to increase to 60%, or make it decisively in your favor. No matter what, it will still be a 40-50% matchup in miracles favor.

So in essence, its better to just go with the generic sideboard option with the charms, lilliana, and the 2 cliques instead of wasting precious sideboard space that weakens your other matchups. Its actually more favorable to win against the winnable matchup then using the flex slots that don't even get you to above 50%.

Like Einherjer said, you ain't gonna screw miracles. Better to just play with the more generic board than to bring in so much hate that its out of the ordinary and hurt your other matchups.

Einherjer
04-25-2014, 02:45 PM
First of all. You are in no, I repeat myself, you are in no position to judge the skill of "misty rainforest". Don't throw bricks when you sit in a glass house, ya know?

Other than that you are wrong in both, your premsises and your conclusion, but I won't go into detail here, as I am tired of talking to you.

Have a nice day, Sir.

Greetings

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 02:48 PM
First of all. You are in no, I repeat myself, you are in no position to judge the skill of "misty rainforest". Don't throw bricks when you sit in a glass house, ya know?

Other than that you are wrong in both, your premsises and your conclusion, but I won't go into detail here, as I am tired of talking to you.

Have a nice day, Sir.

Greetings

Very typical of this forum to have elitist talking in here. I only see this bs in magic cards and in no other hobby.

danyul
04-25-2014, 02:50 PM
Very typical of this forum to have elitist talking in here. I only see this bs in magic cards and in no other hobby.

Did you leave your account info in a public library or something?

I thought you were one of the nice guys.

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 02:51 PM
Did you leave your account info in a public library or something?

I thought you were one of the nice guys.

I try to...but when you get flamed by people calling u a dumbass and idiot, it pisses you off. None of them will say this in person. I dare them.

Griselpuff
04-25-2014, 02:55 PM
I also prefer to be on the miracles side in this matchup. The new lists with snapcaster Mage are much harder to beat. Still, I agree with almost everything Phillip said. It won't be skewed heavily either way if both players are very good.

zenzog
04-25-2014, 03:17 PM
I try to...but when you get flamed by people calling u a dumbass and idiot, it pisses you off. None of them will say this in person. I dare them.

They probably won't use those words, but they'll still say you're wrong.

KobeBryan
04-25-2014, 03:35 PM
They probably won't use those words, but they'll still say you're wrong.

Just because I don't agree with a ****** elitist, i'm now the worst player in the world.

Barbed Blightning
04-25-2014, 09:52 PM
Just because I don't agree with a ****** elitist, i'm now the worst player in the world.

I don't think that was his point, either; it, rather, was that your arguments for the Miracles matchup was a weak one. And indeed it was--just giving up on a matchup that will obviously be common at the higher tables is asinine.

It's difficult. Yes. Both sides have decent tools for the other, and decent answers for the other's threats, but neither have a real trump either (at least in game one), and that's the point--it comes down to skill and luck, the latter of which is mitigated by the former.

I guess my point is not to take this so serious. You have an opinion that others strongly disagree with. Sometimes that makes you wrong (as I, no offense, think you are on this matter) and sometimes it makes you right. DRS and Charm had a period of time in which they were considered bad (charm much more than DRS) and obviously that mass opinion has changed.

Just roll with the punches, man

phazonmutant
04-25-2014, 10:24 PM
Thanks for stepping in with some real content, Einherjer. We seem to be in agreement about almost everything, so for personal vanity I'm glad to hear a good Miracles player say what you said. I'm surprised you advocate boarding out Wasteland though, fortunately you broke into it in detail.


Cutting 4 Wastelands is drastic, agreed. But look, my newest iteration of Miracles plays 1 land more than Team America does, and I'm not playing Llanowar Elves... eerghh Deathrite Shaman. Look, by cutting 4 Wastelands you have the option of trumping Miracles in card-quality, if you keep those 20 lands you'll get punished severly for not being able to control your draws with Sensei's Divining Top and Miracles will get the card-quality and you'll die... painfully. Unless you do everything else right, ofc :) You don't have to trust me, but you might have to agree that this logic sounds intriguing - and just test it on your own.

It's a solid premise, and pretty widely accepted to board out a Bayou. You definitely think less of Deathrite than I do, but then again I'm the one playing BUG! ;) It's strong in the matchup when it accelerates us to get out ahead of Miracles, and kinda as a freebie 2 a turn isn't the worst. So lumping in Deathrite as only a mana source seems wrong, but for sure it isn't a full threat - so call it half of each.


So, you want to keep Wasteland because you want to break up Karakas + Clique/Venser? Well, first of all Venser is bad. And Clique won't be in the postboarded deck in all lists. Thirdly Karakas is a 1of. And lastly, this "lock" isn't really devastating for you, so please don't worry about this one.

I agree Venser is bad, but the fact is that oarsman likes it and a huge number of people follow his lead. Situationally it can be good, especially postboard when TA boards out Daze and Disfigure. I've never seen a Miracles player board out Clique against a Delver deck, but could happens, sure. But to actually address your point - sure, Karakas lock isn't enough of a reason to leave in all 4 Wasteland, although lists like oarsman's with 2 rely on it harder than lists like yours.


You want to keep Wasteland to nuke those Tundras and Volcanic Islands of mine? Well... there are 2 ways to develop a control-manabase when facing a Delver-Tempodeck.
1) Get those basics down: If everything goes according to plan you land Island, Plains, Island or Island Island Plains in the first three turns, followed by more basics or Fetchlands. Duals will be kept for sorcery-speed cards, will be shuffled away or will be deployed in a big fashion, so Wasteland won't save you - and it'll be too late.
2) One does not simply waste me: If your hand consists of duals only you'll just slam them one by another and fetch for additional ones - as your opponent can't have all the Wastelands. This plan crumbles to the 3-4 Wasteland-draw... but how often is this gonna happen? And while you spend your Wastelands doing kind of nothing Miracles can keep sculpting the hand/Top3.

1) No doubt about it, Miracles has some draws where Wastelands are blank pieces of cardboard. If we're lucky, we can catch you playing sloppy by Wasting a fetch and Piercing a spell on the stack.
2) I think this is the big point where we disagree. Miracles typically plays 5-8 nonbasics vs 6-7 basics in your 21-23 lands. That means that about a third of your lands are nonbasics, and sometimes you draw one or several, and sometimes you even have to fetch duals (although good players rarely do). This implies two things - a) in a typical game, there will be at least one Wasteland target within the first 2-3 turns, and 2) some games they will be forced to play several nonbasics. Now think about Miracle's goals in this matchup: a) get up to 5+ lands, b) resolve Jace on a stable board or Entreat for 2+. With that in mind, my argument for Waste has 3 ways of looking at the same idea.
1) Every Waste sets Miracles one turn further back from those goals, and ideally the tempo deck can capitalize on that by forcing through damage.
2) Miracles doesn't have pure card advantage other than Jace and therefore can't draw both spells and lands (as an aside to BUG players, this is why Hymn is good in the matchup). Every Waste means that's one more land they have to draw to execute their goal instead of a potential removal spell.
3) Some games they just don't get to play because you can prevent them from casting (enough) relevant spells before you kill them. Put another way, free wins.


You want to keep Wasteland for Volcanic Island in order to disable them from casting REB? Well, most Miracles-lists won't be bringing alot of REBs as long as they play no Mountain. And if they play a Mountain, well nice Wasteland once again :)

Not everyone is as greed-free as you are ;) But color-screw off red is a bit loose, just like Karakas.

So I can definitely see shaving one, but I believe they are a really important tool to punish Miracle's bad-to-average draws.



Go on camera at scg and play against a top table miracles. Not some scrub at the low end. Use ta and play against urself and tell us the results

I mentioned this a couple pages back and really don't want to be overbearing, but I really just couldn't pass this juicy comment up.
I won an SCG with TA. I was on camera, and I 2-0'd Miracles in the Quarters and Semis, playing against a good player who has played Miracles for months if not years, and against one of the best players in the state. No, I didn't play against Joe, but a) he's a good player, not a god among men, and b) I'm 1-for-1 against Joe with Tombstalker. #scoreboard

sdematt
04-26-2014, 01:23 AM
I play BGx as my primary deck, and Miracles as my secondary, so I have some perspective from both sides.

First, it's unlikely anyone testing and playing Legacy frequently and absorbing relevant Legacy information is "the worst player in the world." Very likely, there are bad Legacy players everywhere, but we're likely not THE worst.

Second, we also have different experience bases and dissimilar access to resources. Kobe, even though your boarding plans may seem interesting, maybe they work for you against the players in your area. However, I think we can all agree that we're trying to work towards a general case in a general metagame. We cannot expect every testing partner to be the best person in the world with their respective decks. It just doesn't work that way.

I think we just really need to analyze our decisions and work towards a consensus, and quit with the bitter name calling. It's stupid and it needs to stop.

-------

From my perspective, I agree with Greg and Philip. The matchup really isn't super favoured in either direction, at least from my testing. It really depends on play/draw, the particular builds, and just what hands get kept. I think it's fine to say you're 8-1-1 in ten total matches or games, but where does this testing lead over 100 matches? 500? 1000? 8-1-1 can either be luck, sampling error, or skill over your opponent, and that's why we have other people to corroborate lists and results. I'm glad you're taking out Miracles with such proficiency, but not everyone is kicking ass the way you can, and we're trying to figure out a way to do so.

I think as the BUG player, you can't assume people will board out Counterbalance and not board in Rest in Peace. I don't think you can take the chance and attempt to next level them, then get screwed when they stay on Level 1. I think the punishment for attempting to next level and getting punished by a resolved Counter/Top lock isn't worth the risk. As the Miracles player, I understand where Philip's plan attacks from, but I haven't had any luck with running the deck that way.

I think Tombstalker is still a fine creature, but against Miracles, he's not as great, I'll agree. In my BUg test-deck, I'm running Tombstalker because there's only about 8.5% Miracles in my metagame, and the rest get crushed by Tombstalker.

Against Miracles, because the deck has very easy "I-win" buttons attached, you need to attack from multiple angles with different forms of hate. Non-creature forms of hate, like Winter Orb, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, and Liliana are some of the best ones because Miracles has few ways to interact with those permanents beyond counterspells and sometimes Engineered Explosives. I can't stress Sylvan Library enough because that card is Ancestral Recall in this matchup. I played Miracles recently and drew 7 cards off of it because it WAS so good. I'd actually considering 1 main and 1 side, in my opinion, but that's just my call.

-Matt

Esper3k
04-26-2014, 01:44 AM
As others have said, I feel the Miracles matchup is close/favorable to them, but nothing insurmountable.

For me, I think the matchup really revolves around Top first and then Terminus second. It's funny, but it almost feels like to me that if the Miracles player gets down t1 Top, it's pretty much game over, but if the don't it's also game over (in the other way).

@Einherjer: Thanks for the input! It's always very useful to get perspective from experienced players on the other side. I do have a question though - why do you like Flusterstorm for BUG in the matchup? I don't feel that it hits anything really relevant (Top, Miracle'd Terminus, Jace), so I was wondering as to your thoughts regarding that?

Einherjer
04-26-2014, 03:41 AM
"Not everyone is as greed-free as you are"

This may very well be true, but if people bring numerous REBs without running a mountain, by god - let those Wastelands in your deck and punish them for this stupidity. Yet I am under the impression that better players won't give you the possibility of screwing them effectively, be it because they play Mountain or just not bring (a lot) REBs.

"@Einherjer: Thanks for the input! It's always very useful to get perspective from experienced players on the other side. I do have a question though - why do you like Flusterstorm for BUG in the matchup? I don't feel that it hits anything really relevant (Top, Miracle'd Terminus, Jace), so I was wondering as to your thoughts regarding that? "

Flusterstorm is not good enough to board in if you have limited slots to your disposal. But as soon as those Wastelands left the deck you are free to stock up on your disruption, be it as conditional as Flusterstorm. It may hit neither Jace nor Top but pretty much everything else. It is very good at dealing with a protected Entreat, it's a good hard-to-interact-with piece of disruption and it counters Brainstorm. Plus you can punish bad players/plays for putting multiple spells on the stack - doesn't happen often, but when it does it feels so good - regardless of the deck you're playing - countering multiple spells with 1 is just unfair.

I can see not boarding out all Wastelands for a specific list, but please consider doing that before you cut Discard or Decay...

Greetings

Dragonslayer_90
04-26-2014, 09:07 AM
I think we just really need to analyze our decisions and work towards a consensus, and quit with the bitter name calling. It's stupid and it needs to stop.

Thank you Matt for presenting your reasoning without feeling the need to also bash someone and also calling out the stupidity that started going on in this thread. I want to say I really like how we are focusing the thread discussion on the miracles matchup since it's a matchup I've been wanting to figure out, though I really haven't had the time to do actually testing because finals are currently kicking my ass. However, do refrain from name calling and any other form of personally insulting each other. It's totally unnecessary.


I can see not boarding out all Wastelands for a specific list, but please consider doing that before you cut Discard or Decay...

I'm glad to hear from a Miracles master that you shouldn't be siding out your discard. Some people I've talked to about the matchup say they think it's correct to side out the discard because you guys have top. However, I disagree with that because from personal experience keeping the discard in has been good for me,, especially hymn to tourach.

Anyways Einherjer, I was wondering what is the reasoning behind your advice on almost never countering removal from the BUG Delver side and only trying to counter game winners like entreat, jace, or even top while also using resources to find more backup threats? Is it because you guys have so much removal? I don't doubt you are correct but I just want a more elaborate explanation.

Griselpuff
04-26-2014, 09:14 AM
You need to save your counterspells for Jace, Entreat and Terminus. Those are all much more high impact cards than Swords to Plowshares, and can function as "removal".

There are obviously cases where you counter their StP's, such as when you're using conditional counterspells, or when you can't win if you don't counter the StP's and you just pray they have stone nothing or don't hit their 4th land drop.

Dragonslayer_90
04-26-2014, 09:21 AM
You need to save your counterspells for Jace, Entreat and Terminus. Those are all much more high impact cards than Swords to Plowshares, and can function as "removal".

There are obviously cases where you counter their StP's, such as when you're using conditional counterspells, or when you can't win if you don't counter the StP's and you just pray they have stone nothing or don't hit their 4th land drop.

Hmmm...didn't think of counting Terminus along side must counters like jace and entreat. I was just counting it as another removal spell since like Phillip advises I try to deploy only one threat at a time in order to deny any potential value they can get out of terminus.

Einherjer
04-26-2014, 09:29 AM
Okay sure, so two points:

Discard is good, no doubt. If you don't consider boarding out Wastelands you may cut Discard. But, as mentioned above it's wrong not boarding out Wastelands, that's why it's wrong boarding out discard. Unless you have the super bonkers SB adressed to crushing Miracles - but for a "normal" sideboard Discard is good enough to stay.

The point about not countering the removal is not something about BUG vs Miracles. It's a principle that underlies every general match of Tempo vs Control, be it the good old RUG vs Esper (oh how I loved to play this - before Nemesis obv) or RUG vs Miracles or BUG vs Esper/Miracles... you get the point. The typical way these MUs resolve are well known to everybody of you - but let me still elaborate on this:
The Tempoplayers takes advantage of cards like Delver/Waste/Daze/Stifle to get ahead in the critical turns and start with the beatdown. It doesn't matter which creature, all that matters is that the BUG/RUG/BURG deck is taking the initiative. All the other ressources are spent on disrupting the opponent, be it via manadenial, hand-disruption or pure stackbased stuff like Pierce/Snare whatever. After the Controlplayer is able to stabilize at first he will cast the first removalspell. As long as your hand is not 4 Spell Pierce you should be letting this resolve, as you can just deploy another threat, or cantrip into one - while still having enough means to deal with the follow up play - and this is where this principle strikes. If you let the removal resolve you still have ressources left to combat a follow up Stoneforge Mystic/Counterbalance/Liliana of the Veil. Should you decide to defend your Delver of Secrets/Nimble Mongoose you are kind of hellbent, or stranded with a Ponder or something. When you opponent lands one of the threats above, what do you do? Well, die - painfully. Your creatures can't match a Batterskull, Lilly is a removal that sticks and Counterbalance shuts off your entire deck until you draw the decay without your cantrips. (RUG doesn't have Decay - so...well)
It's all about the follow up play the Controldeck can have. And a resolved threat of a Controldeck is traditionally stronger than a mere creature from RUG/BUG/BURG.

So, as all rules there are exceptions, and BUG has not that much stackbased interaction as RUG does - but the principle is still the same, for a well mixed hand. If you have only disruption and no way to find another threat in time - go ahead and force that Terminus, but don't be surprised if I follow it up with a Jace bouncing your Delver, resulting in an inevitable loss.

Keep in mind that I played pretty much every Controldeck extensively but didn't manage to play Delver-decks for more than a few weeks - so I am simply describing the general MU Delver vs Control from a Control-perspective.

Did I make my point clear? Do you disagree? Let me know.

Greetings

Dragonslayer_90
04-26-2014, 09:42 AM
@Einherjer: I think you did make your points clear enough for me to agree with you. I appreciate the analysis and justification from a fundamental perspective. I'll keep your advice in mind next time I play against miracles.

KobeBryan
04-26-2014, 10:49 AM
I don't think that was his point, either; it, rather, was that your arguments for the Miracles matchup was a weak one. And indeed it was--just giving up on a matchup that will obviously be common at the higher tables is asinine.

It's difficult. Yes. Both sides have decent tools for the other, and decent answers for the other's threats, but neither have a real trump either (at least in game one), and that's the point--it comes down to skill and luck, the latter of which is mitigated by the former.

I guess my point is not to take this so serious. You have an opinion that others strongly disagree with. Sometimes that makes you wrong (as I, no offense, think you are on this matter) and sometimes it makes you right. DRS and Charm had a period of time in which they were considered bad (charm much more than DRS) and obviously that mass opinion has changed.

Just roll with the punches, man

I think that is exactly his point after name calling and thereafter his disregard.

Anyways, Thanks Matt for your insight.

This is how I'm doing it now

19 lands

creatures
4 goyf
4 delver
2 bobs
4 drs

spells
3 fow
2 disfigure
4 daze
4 thoughtseize
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 abrupt decay

misc.
1 library
1 lily

Sideboard
2 golgari charm
1 disfigure
2 spell pierce
1 envelope
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 clique
1 lily
1 force of will
1 cage
2 surgical

The boarding plan -4 daze, -2 disfigure, 1 goyf, 2 thoughtseize, 1 decay,
In, 1 grip, 1 lily, 1 spell pierce, 1 envelope, 1 force, 1 null, 1 needle, 2 golgari charm, 1 clique

I don't think the boarding is horrendous to fight this matchup. I can certainly play 4 sinkholes, 2 winter orb/bitterblossom, 1 zur's weilding, but what do i take out from the board that wouldn't hurt my other matchups? I dont' think you can and that was the point with the original post.

My priority list of counters
1. Top - especially if i don't have my hate yet and its in the first 2 turns
2. countering my hate against top.
3. Bloodmoon
4. jace
5. entreat

Things i do not bother countering, terminus, plow, creatures, RIP

I dont' think my plan is that off when playing them, but i can never beat them consistently...a 40-45% win rate.

sdematt
04-26-2014, 12:10 PM
19 lands

creatures
4 goyf
4 delver
2 bobs -> Even though I love Bob, Kobe, I think I might actually turn this into TNN if you're really wanting to eek Miracles. Leaving Terminus as their only out seems slightly stronger.
4 drs

spells
3 fow
2 disfigure
4 daze
4 thoughtseize
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 abrupt decay

misc.
1 library
1 lily


Sideboard
2 golgari charm
1 disfigure
2 spell pierce
1 envelope
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 clique
1 lily
1 force of will
1 cage
2 surgical

My test board for this deck in my gauntlet is like:

2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure (since I have zero maindeck)
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil


The boarding plan -4 daze, -2 disfigure, 1 goyf, 2 thoughtseize, 1 decay,
In, 1 grip, 1 lily, 1 spell pierce, 1 envelope, 1 force, 1 null, 1 needle, 2 golgari charm, 1 clique

I think I would do this:

-2 Wasteland, -2 Disfigure, -4 Daze, -1 Goyf,
+1 Winter Orb, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Clique, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Liliana of the Veil

I'll try to explain my reasoning here.

-Wasteland, as said by others, is slightly no bueno. Plus, I'm running a 20 land build just for stability game 1 and allowing me to pull out more stuff in games 2 and 3.
-Disfigure is horrid against Miracles, you're totally right.
-Daze isn't great, especially since I know that as a Miracles player, I have the time to play around Daze by just playing lands and passing.
-Goyf is the worst card against Rest in Peace. He's still a threat when RIP is not online, but a 0/1 is plain bad. At least DRS swings for one. However, I wouldn't want to decrease my threat density much more than this.

-Winter Orb can be pretty fantastic at slowing Miracles down. It comes down early, and it stalls them since Topping is their one untap, and they have to wait to cast their ballbreaking spells like, say, Verdict, Jace, Entreat, etc. Plus, I have a Mint Alpha copy, so....you know :cool: The card is also excellent against Jund, since they want tons of mana for their Punishing Fire combo.
-Null Rod is excellent against all the equipment decks, and obviously against Top and EE in Miracles. It's very hard for them to remove.
-Pithing Needle their Top or Jace, and has play against SnT and basically every other deck.
-Sylvan is good in any control matchup and the mirror. It digs you out of so many holes. I'm in love with this card.
-Krosan Grip does double duty against Equipment and Top/Counterbalance.
-Clique is doing work against the Miracle trigger, Combo, SFM, and Show and Tell.
-Spell Pierce I like bringing in here because Miracles players don't see it game 1 and won't necessarily be able to play around it Game 2. Miracles is a fatiguing deck. Use that to your advantage. Maybe you get to get a Top that they try to cast on Turn 2, or their Jace, or whatever. Or, they slow down enough so you can capitalize on their slowed position and you can hopefully overrun them.
-Liliana, I can agree with, won't win you a game against Jace since even if you ultimate, they'll keep Jace-sealing you. However, being able to blow up all their lands if need be and continue the discard-train could be very good. I'd rather have the extra edge than not. It also helps nuke snapcasters in case you need to alpha in.



Suffice to say, it looks like I'm overboarding for Miracles, but in reality, I just have cards that overlap with the matchup in positive ways.

-Matt

rlesko
04-26-2014, 01:55 PM
Scrubbed out, 0-3 (2-6) last night...

List
4x Delver
4x DRS
3x Goyf
1x TNN
2x Bob

2x Lili

3x FoW
4x Daze
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn
3x AD
2x Disfigure

20 Lands

SB:
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Envelop
1x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
1x V Clique
1x FoW
1x submerge
1x thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x AD
1x Sylvan
1x Krosan Grip

round 1: Turbo Eldrazi

I know I am playing Turbo Eldrazi (12 post for those who don't know, though they don't usually run 12 posts anymore).

g1: I start off well, I believe it was Delver (I think I Daze his T1 play) followed up by DRS and Goyf (I see his life total go 20->19 (unflipped delver)->20 (glimmerpost)->15(delver + goyf)->7(delver + goyf + drs). Have some permission in hand so when I have lethal on board I force his expedition map so he can't chasm and squeak out of this one.

out 2x Disgure, 1x AD, 2x Daze, 1x TNN
in 1x Fow, 1x V Clique, 1x Envelop, 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Sylvan Library

g2: We both durdle a bit, eventually he resolves SnT with FoW back up

out 1x Flusterstorm
in 1x Daze

g3: Long, drawn out game, he gains 9 life total off of glimmerposts, I have a full board (4 creatures, lands, Sylvan library), and with him at 2 life and ~6 posts in play + eye of ugin, the only thing I am cold to is an emrakul off the top and karakas (for infinite turns) because I can sac 6 permenants, block emrakul with v clique, and swing back for the win. He finds an emrakul with his SDT and crop rotates for Karakas. GG.

round 2: Hypergenesis combo

No idea what he is on...

g1: play a DRS, pass the turn. he plays a land and passes. I play a bob and attack for 1. he discards to hand size. I wasteland his 1 land and continue to build my board (with no idea what he is on but I do have a daze and feel comfortable tapping out because he has no lands). Eventually I have 2x Shaman, Bob, Goyf, 4 lands (2 are tapped from casting goyf) to his Wooded Foothills with a Daze, FoW, and land in hand. (I had revealed FoW to Bob so he also knew about it - ouch). Eventually he cracks his foothills and Simian spirit guide + elvish spirit guide for Shardless agent. Trigger. reveals hypergensis. I daze. He FoW exiling FoW. My hand now consists of a FoW and a land. Had I not played a goyf the previous turn I could have hard cast the foW, (2 DRS + 4 lands), so I only had 4 mana at my disposal. He puts emrakul and griselbrand into play. GG.

I imagine his opening 7 was something like tropical island, 2 spirit guides, emrakul, griselbrand, fow, fow.

out: 2x Disfigure, 3x AD, 1x TNN
in: 1x Envelop, 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x V Clique, 1x Fow, 1x Thoughtseize

g2: 2x Hymn, 2x Thoughtseize. GG

No SB changes

g3: He opens the game up with 3x Leyline of Sanctity...ouch. I had a Hymn AND thoughtseize in hand. play a shaman, my only permission in hand is daze. he hard casts shardless agent. i daze. he pays with ESG. GG.

round 3: Burn

No idea what he was on either...

g1: land, suspend rift bolt from him is pretty obvious. I am able to abrupy decay a vexing devil and a sulfuric vortex. i draw 4 lands in a row with 3 in play. GG.

out: 1x TNN, 2x Disfigure, 1x AD
in: 1x Envelop, 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Fow

g2: play a shaman, while he burns me. I even try to envelop a chain lightning but he has a pyroblast for it. im at 9 he tries to price me during my EoT (3 lands in play). I flusterstorm (after having played goyf that turn, so storm 3). countered. he untaps, price again. I FoW, he has another pyroblast. go down to 3. bolt, lose. yuck.

I think I am going to add a winter orb or null rod in my SB in place of the submerge, as I need a higher impact card for the turbo MU (there is at least 2 in my meta, in addition to miracles). Other than that, critique/advice is welcome.

HammafistRoob
04-26-2014, 04:46 PM
@Ein- I agree with not countering 1-for-1 removal if your hand has cantrips/additional threats available, and doesn't contain an overload of permission. The only creature that you want to try and protect aggressively would be Dark Confidant. He is just insane against Miracles, I would value him a lot higher than the other dudes.

Maybe an extra Bob in the board could be good against Control and most combo decks?

Purgatory
04-28-2014, 07:33 AM
I think the primer ought to mention Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard section. It seems flexible enough in the Miracles match-up as an answer to both Jace and Entreat angels, under the right circumstance.

It's in the board of one of the example lists at least.

Bed Decks Palyer
04-28-2014, 07:50 AM
Okay sure, so two points:

...

Did I make my point clear? Do you disagree? Let me know.

Greetings

Well thought, well written. I agree and I'll try to use this approach more consciously while piloting RUG.

Fact is that sometimes it's reasonable to try to protect the dude, esp. when the kill spell is something like Smallpox, or when our hand is full of counters or when the opponent is stuck on low mana and can't follow the removal with another play. But most of the times it shouldn't be difficult to find another creature and continue the beatdown, while keeping the board clear of SFM->BSK, Jace, EtA tokens or anything else.

Barbed Blightning
04-28-2014, 11:19 AM
I think the primer ought to mention Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard section. It seems flexible enough in the Miracles match-up as an answer to both Jace and Entreat angels, under the right circumstance.

It's in the board of one of the example lists at least.

My problem with Pulse is that, against most miracles players, it'll never hit their angels. Against Jace, sure, but if they are fate sealing, it's all the harder to get it.

I'd prefer proactive disruption (bitterblossom, weirding, needle, etc) or instant speed removal.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Sturtzilla
04-28-2014, 11:32 AM
I did some play testing yesterday in preparation for SCG Cinci. Played the BUG Delver mirror (6 games) and the Miracles matchup (6 games). I played the BUG mirror on each the play and draw 1 game preboard and then each the play and draw 2 games post board.

As for the BUG mirror it felt like what mattered was who had a better board presence. As Decay can't be countered, preemptively Thoughtseizing, to take out removal or threats that were difficult to deal with seemed to work out well. As for boarding: I am still not sure I am completely happy with my sideboard for the mirror; however, this is what I did: -3 Force of Will (3 main and 1 board), -3 Daze (4 main); +1 Disfigure (one in the main), +1 Liliana of the Veil (one in the main), +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Spell Pierce (1 in main), and +2 Mizzium Skin. We were testing out the tech of Mizzium Skin as it does give you an effective way to "counter" Abrupt Decays while also having some marginal utility when facing down -1/-1 effects. I never got to cast Mizzium Skin for value but it did feel good knowing that I was protected from an opposing Abrupt Decay the one time I did draw it. Mizzium Skin might be too cute overall, but still has quite a bit of utility in basically ever match up with removal... DeathBlade, BUG, Shardless, UWR, Miracles (basically every non-combo deck). Two may be too many I may try it out as a one-of for a week or two yet. Spell Pierce may see counter intuitive but it allows you to more aggressively counter cantrips and also gives a means to counter Liliana. I think some other considerations for this match up would be Sylvan Library and Submerge. My opponent brought in both of these. I think Library is a correct choice however Submerge seems a little loose with all of the hyper efficient removal the deck already plays. Overall in the mirror I was 5-1 loosing one game to a Liliana which got out of control.

The Miracles testing was a bit weird. I played BUG for 4 games. 1 each pre and post board on each the play and draw. Then we switched decks and I played the Miracles side for two games against BUG. So from the BUG side of things, I felt the match up felt fine. Our deck plays cards that are basically better all the time. The one exception to this is when your Miracles opponent gets to Miracle something. Top was a bit irritating as it slows down the game immensely. However any time my opponent played a Counterbalance, I either was in under it with some pressure and/or had an Abrupt Decay. I won both preboard games, however, my opponent made a really greedy attack in one which cost him the game. A more conservative line would have likely won him the game. In the way of Sideboarding I did the following: -4 Daze, -1 Disfigure, -2 Waseland; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Null Rod, +1 FoW, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Liliana. I think Sylvan Library, Golgari Charm, and Zur's Weirding could all also be potentials here. In the Post board games, I Thoughtseized and FoWed Tops aggressively. This seemed to work out well as I managed to win both games. Playing from the opposite side seemed terrible although that may be due to preffered type of decks and playstyle. I went 1-1. The Miracles deck has so many land and very few ways to actually win the game. If you force your opponent to make 1-for-1 interactions you should, as the BUG player, come out on top. Just don't overextend into Terminus or Supreme Verdict. Anyway I would be game to hear what others think on these topics.

exallium
04-28-2014, 01:29 PM
I'm not as experienced with Miracles as some, but here are my two cents:

1. Liliana of the Veil will not win you the game, but she sure makes it a lot harder for the Miracles player to win. Just remember that when miracles has a top online, and we're both out of cards, they still have 3 virtual cards floating on the top of the deck. Also, watch out for venser shenanigans, as he can bounce Liliana in response to a +1.

2. Hymn early, hymn often. One aspect of control is forcing the opponent to do what you want them to do. By forcing plays, you are controlling the game state. Even if the hymn gets countered, a brainstorm gets used, or whatever, you're still getting action out of their hand, and beefing up your goyfs.

3. Threat density. Keep it low. A single Goyf on the board as a 4/5 is easy to deal with, but forces the miracles player to have a good answer for it. Pair it with an early liliana and you're in a pretty good place. Getting it swords'd is the best they can do as far as permanent removal, and then you just drop down another one. The most I'd run out, particularly in the early game, is two threats. We run a very small number of creatures, and getting 3 or 4 of them killed off all at once feels bad. We want their terminus and verdicts to have as little value as possible.

4. Know when to go all-in. Keep track of spells used, what threats they could still posess, etc. Don't run yourself into a verdict or terminus too early, as you can end up getting outpaced, and find yourself dealing with a bunch of 4/4 flying Angels. If there's one thing that Bug Delver has a really hard time dealing with, it's a mass of creatures.

Sideboarding options:

Winter Orb
Null Rod
Spell Pierce
Envelop
Vendilion Clique
Golgari Charm
Sylvan Library

Asthereal
04-28-2014, 03:58 PM
Is everyone here forgetting about Creeping Tar Pit?
That's a cracking one against Miracles. Bounce that, Jace!
Also nice against decks that mess with our mana base.

Maybe we should re-introduce this guy, since Miracles and Canadian are back in DTB.

Sturtzilla
04-28-2014, 04:19 PM
Is everyone here forgetting about Creeping Tar Pit?
That's a cracking one against Miracles. Bounce that, Jace!
Also nice against decks that mess with our mana base.

Maybe we should re-introduce this guy, since Miracles and Canadian are back in DTB.

I think there is some utility here, but I am not the biggest fan. Miracles has Swords to Plowshares in addition to Terminus. Paying effectively 4 mana to get a Duress and maybe 3 life is not exactly what I am looking for here. I don't think this is the route I want to take in this match up.

Asthereal
04-28-2014, 04:52 PM
I think there is some utility here, but I am not the biggest fan. Miracles has Swords to Plowshares in addition to Terminus. Paying effectively 4 mana to get a Duress and maybe 3 life is not exactly what I am looking for here. I don't think this is the route I want to take in this match up.
It may not be the first strategy we think of, but it's a threat that can only be hit by the mentioned cards, and it's very effective against Jace. Not to mention the fact that it's uncounterable and that it doesn't get affected by Rest in Peace. My Tombstalker list would like to have one of these if Miracles runs rampant even more.

Purgatory
04-28-2014, 05:30 PM
My problem with Pulse is that, against most miracles players, it'll never hit their angels. Against Jace, sure, but if they are fate sealing, it's all the harder to get it.

I'd prefer proactive disruption (bitterblossom, weirding, needle, etc) or instant speed removal.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

True, but it's also a decent answer to Batterskull etc. I think it deserves mention at least.

Split the finals in a local with my TNN list today, speaking of nothing. I'm 15-3-1 with it in tournaments so far this year.

btm10
04-28-2014, 05:41 PM
It may not be the first strategy we think of, but it's a threat that can only be hit by the mentioned cards, and it's very effective against Jace. Not to mention the fact that it's uncounterable and that it doesn't get affected by Rest in Peace. My Tombstalker list would like to have one of these if Miracles runs rampant even more.

Creeping Tar Pit has a home in the more control-focused BUG lists, where it's usually run as a 2- or 3-of (cf. Pimus Phan's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65251)). If you're playing it in Delver lists, you're sacrificing the reason to play the tempo deck to improve the Miracles matchup only a little. It's definitely a good card and BUG Control is a good deck, but it's not this deck.

I am, on the other hand, a big fan of Maelstrom Pulse.

Purgatory
04-29-2014, 05:47 AM
Creeping Tar Pit has a home in the more control-focused BUG lists, where it's usually run as a 2- or 3-of (cf. Pimus Phan's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65251)). If you're playing it in Delver lists, you're sacrificing the reason to play the tempo deck to improve the Miracles matchup only a little. It's definitely a good card and BUG Control is a good deck, but it's not this deck.

I am, on the other hand, a big fan of Maelstrom Pulse.

Back in february-march, I tested a lot of TA vs. Miracles in preparation for BoM (I can't go anyway, since my fiancé and I are buying a car instead, but whatever) and I found Creeping Tar-Pit to be less-than stellar. It will rarely get Terminus'd, sure, but they can do it and they will if it will save a Jace, and they have so many other removals in StP + Snapcaster, that it takes several Hymns and preferably a Pithing Needle on Top for it to even be considered a PW killer.

I'm sure I was playing it incorrectly in some way, but I couldn't get it to put up the results other people had.

Einherjer
04-29-2014, 06:13 AM
If you see Creeping Tar Pit as a creature, then this card sucks. It comes into play tapped, and you have to spend mana on it, just to get it killed. But that's not what this card is about in this Match-Up.

This card should be used as an "insurance". You will proceede with your normal gameplan for as long as possible, all you have to do is threaten to have this card available. Just keep on bashing with your Delvers/Goyfs for as long as you can. What will threatening a Tar Pit attack do?

First and foremost, it won't allow me to drop Jace and unsummon your creature.
It won't allow me to drop Jace and Brainstorm, because if I don't find a removal I just wasted a win-con.
It won't allow me to play the removal as good as possible, as this often includes one Snapcaster chump-block in the end, just before Entreat is found or anything. I can't do that any more - as it won't allow me to block.
It won't allow me to treat Entreat the Angels as a Terminus + You win, as Tar Pit can attack through it.

If you play this card patiently and kind of re-actively, you'll learn where the real value of this card lies. It's good against Miracles, that being said.

Greetings

Dragonslayer_90
04-29-2014, 08:01 AM
Einherjer's spot on. You don't play tar pit with the intention to activate it as soon as possible. It's a late game card for when your opponent as answered many of your threats already and you need something to pressure them for the last chunk of life. I used to have it in my board when I started playing this deck last year because it was a good way to up the land count and threat count at the same time in Delver mirrors. Will consider adding it mostly for miracles.

Quasim0ff
04-29-2014, 09:11 AM
Einherjer's spot on. You don't play tar pit with the intention to activate it as soon as possible. It's a late game card for when your opponent as answered many of your threats already and you need something to pressure them for the last chunk of life. I used to have it in my board when I started playing this deck last year because it was a good way to up the land count and threat count at the same time in Delver mirrors. Will consider adding it mostly for miracles.

From my POV, the problem with this matchup is that, once miracles stabilized, it's really hard to squeeze the last points of damage through. This is where Tar Pit can come in handy.

wcm8
04-29-2014, 11:32 AM
Remember that Black has a slightly weaker equivalent to Sulfuric Vortex:

Forsaken Wastes

Like Vortex, the idea with a card like this is to A) turn off life-gain, and B) provide a difficult-to-answer inevitable win-condition against control decks. When I was playing RUG, Vortex was the key to winning a lot of control matchups since you needed something to close out games after your first few early threats get answered. It's not as quick as Vortex, and of course we don't have Bolts to hasten the process, but I often find my games against Miracles getting down to top-deck wars and them in single-digit life. An alternative to this is Bitterblossom, but the problem with Blossom is that a well-timed Terminus can undo all of its pressure.

I am not suggesting this to be superior to alternatives, simply an option to consider.

Asthereal
04-29-2014, 01:06 PM
From my POV, the problem with this matchup is that, once miracles stabilized, it's really hard to squeeze the last points of damage through. This is where Tar Pit can come in handy.
There we go, an accomplice. :smile:

In the old thread, when I joined in and asked for advice on my sideboard, Tar Pit was suggested as a one-of in the board. And actually most of the lists back then had one in the board. One of the guys there said it was constantly overperforming for him and said I should just give it a test run. I never did, but right now it seems time to try it out.

Note: I am talking about like five months ago. Basically the same card pool, just a slightly different meta.

Esper3k
04-29-2014, 01:18 PM
I'm not opposed to Creeping Tar Pit. I think it's just fine and does give you that reach to push the last damage you nee when you're in that situation (similar to TNN). I don't believe it's as necessary in the TNN lists, but I think it's find for the Dark Confidant / Tombstalker lists.

phazonmutant
04-30-2014, 11:58 AM
There we go, an accomplice. :smile:

In the old thread, when I joined in and asked for advice on my sideboard, Tar Pit was suggested as a one-of in the board. And actually most of the lists back then had one in the board. One of the guys there said it was constantly overperforming for him and said I should just give it a test run. I never did, but right now it seems time to try it out.

Note: I am talking about like five months ago. Basically the same card pool, just a slightly different meta.

True, it was in all the old lists. I played it for a while, brought it in a bunch of matchups, but it never really did anything. As a land it kinda sucked, as a creature is was pretty marginal. I get that it's good because it's both, but I'd rather just have a trump for the matchup you're concerned about like Orb, Needle, Null Rod, etc.

Barbed Blightning
04-30-2014, 01:01 PM
Quick report from my local event, went decently 2-1-1 in rounds (it's always four rounds at Card Kingdom, and I usually draw my last round if possible to Han Solo it out of there).

List:

20 Land

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
1 TNN
1 Bob

4 Daze
3 FoW
3 Hymn
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Lilly

SB:
2 Charm
2 Disfigure
3 Pierce
1 FoW
1 Clique
1 Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip


Matches were:

R1: BUrG Aluren (2-0)

An early hymn tells me everything I need to know when it reveals Aluren and Cavern Harpy. I sandbag a FoW + blue card, while cautiously activating my Lilly. Game ends after a few turns of my Goyf beating through his defenses to eat his last point of life.

Out:
4 Decay
2 Wasteland (I am not familiar with alluren, but he ran DRS so I figured I wasn't going to be screwing him any time soon)
1 Bob
1 TNN

In:
3 Pierce
1 Fow
2 Charm
1 Needle
1 Clique

Game two is a similar bout. I'm lighter on disruption, however; on my turn 3 he casts an intuition on my draw step. I brainstorm. Intuition resolves. Three copies of Aluren. "All right," he says, "Show me that thoughtseize."

"Ok... thoughtseize?" From there on out he can't find the pieces to his combo and a Goyf gets me there. Cool fact about this matchup: Tarmogoyf reaches almost super-saiyan levels, due to the artifact creatures and enchantments in the yard. :cool:

R2: UWr Miracles (1-2)

It was definitely difficult, but in games one and two there was a definite person who was ahead (myself in game one, himself game two). Game three I basically lost to some sloppy plays. The sloppiest was when he was on just a Jace at 3 and six or so lands. I ultimated my Lilly and, without thinking, just said "your Jace or your lands." He binned the Jace. I then, in my second misplay, cast a Clique proactively to apply pressure (I had no other threats). He cast Entreat at 4 next turn. :rolleyes:

Boarding was:

Out:
4 Daze
3 Waste

In:
2 Charm
1 Library
1 Needle
1 Rod
1 Grip
1 Clique

in retrospect, I think I should have cut the Hymns for Pierces.

R3: Esperblade
Game one he plays double Back to Basics on me, and despite my daze tricks, I cannot even hope to find double decay and four lands drops to make it happen.

Boarding:

Out:
1 Hymn
3 FoW
1 Waste

In:
1 Grip
1 Rod
1 Needle
1 Clique
1 Library

Game two I eventually have both Null Rod and Library in play, with DRS and Delver doing their usual amount of work. A TNN seals the game up.

Out: 4 Daze
In: 1 Hymn, 3 Pierce

Game three he mulls to six. Plays an EE with his basic plains. I cast DRS. He draws... and does nothing. Sweet. I cast Needle (on EE) and a Delver. Another turn with no mana, discards Lingering Souls. Delver flips, Cast Lilly, Exile souls. He discads another souls. He gets a land and fetches for a basic Island, and even though he gets to Ponder, the game goes only downhill for him from there on. Next turn is Bob, DRS, hellbent, Lilly +1. He scoops.

R4 Shardless BUG (ID)
We decide to split, talk about our other Legacy deck (D&T) and I give him a few pointers. Super nice dude though I forgot to ask if he was a Sourcer.

Moving forward:

I may use my Toxic Deluge slot I currently have as a place to test different/weird sideboard options--Zur's Weirding, Carpet of Flowers, Bitterblossom that kind of thing. Rest of the deck feels rock solid though--I really like the 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize main.

zenzog
04-30-2014, 01:44 PM
Played a local legacy event, here were my matches:

2-0 Dredge
2-0 UWr Miracles
2-0 Imperial Painter
2-1 Punishing Jund (ID)

The dredge deck seemed like it would be a poor matchup, but my opponent's dredges were extremely bad. I was pretty lucky here... I forced a T1 breakthrough and hindered his hand dump enough that my single DRS was able to keep up.

My miracles opponent was inexperienced with his deck and an easy win for me. No new insights gleaned from this one, sorry! I have to play miracles at least once or twice each week against much better opponents so this one wasn't really difficult.
Normally I side out of some number of abrupt decays, but this time I didn't since I wasn't sure how he would board. He ended up keeping the CBs in game 2 and he did get a little value countering a ponder before I found an abrupt decay for it.
In: 2 Vendilion Clique, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Envelop, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Liliana of the Veil
Out: 1 Wasteland, 4 Daze, 1 Force of Will, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Thoughtseize

Painter wasn't too bad-- I wasted him out of G1 and G2 I was able to destroy or make him discard all of his grindstones. He held me back for a few turns with an ensnaring bridge, but I drew an abrupt decay to put the game away with tarmogoyf.
I didn't sideboard too much, since I still wanted dazes to get around an early blood moon.

I drew with my Jund opponent in the fourth round, but we played it out for fun. The first game, I somehow won a grindy topdeck war by drawing abrupt decays for his tarmogoyfs and him not drawing abrupt decays for my tarmogoyf. Second game, I got wastelanded out. Third game I won by the skin of my teeth. I surgical extraction'd his abrupt decay so he had fewer outs to my tarmogoyf. Punishing fire wasn't in his GY at the time, but he eventually found it and I wished I had extracted that instead.

My list:

MB:
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dark Confidant
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Force of Will

SB:
2 Disfigure
1 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

Barbed Blightning
04-30-2014, 05:55 PM
Has surgical been worth it in your opinion? Whenever I have played it I always found it to be barely effective

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

KobeBryan
04-30-2014, 05:58 PM
Has surgical been worth it in your opinion? Whenever I have played it I always found it to be barely effective

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I run two...and yes it has especially against jund, lands, and dredge. I don't board it in for combo matchups.

Barbed Blightning
04-30-2014, 06:01 PM
I run two...and yes it has especially against jund, lands, and dredge. I don't board it in for combo matchups.

Gotcha. I have only seen like one Jund in my meta and the very rare Dredge on occasion; I think I will refrain from using it until maybe SCG Portland in June.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

zenzog
05-01-2014, 02:53 AM
Has surgical been worth it in your opinion? Whenever I have played it I always found it to be barely effective

I like it against decks like jund, lands, miracles, and some combo decks like reanimator, grindstone, and dredge. I don't think I'd play more than one, but occasionally it's nice. If I were really hurting for an additional sideboard slot though, it and/or the 3rd lotv in the board would be the first ones on my list to look at.

Barbed Blightning
05-01-2014, 05:01 AM
I like it against decks like jund, lands, miracles, and some combo decks like reanimator, grindstone, and dredge. I don't think I'd play more than one, but occasionally it's nice. If I were really hurting for an additional sideboard slot though, it and/or the 3rd lotv in the board would be the first ones on my list to look at.

What exactly do you extract from miracles? Top if you are lucky?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Asthereal
05-01-2014, 05:51 AM
What exactly do you extract from miracles? Top if you are lucky?
+1. I never board in Surgical against Miracles. I prefer to fight over board presence.

Esper3k
05-01-2014, 09:00 AM
What exactly do you extract from miracles? Top if you are lucky?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

StP, Terminus, Entreat, Jace are also all really good ones to hit too. When they pop Top on your turn, you can Surgical something to shuffle their deck so they have less of a chance of Miracling you. Of course, you might also live the dream of Surgicaling a Terminus with the Miracle Trigger of another one on the stack!

Emo
05-01-2014, 11:52 AM
I usually play RUG, I just picked up this deck and play tested it a little bit because I am playing around with different tempo decks. I have a couple questions about two MUs for Team America (not listed in the primer): the Rock (more fringe these days and Jund:

1) Generally speaking is the matchup against traditional rocklists with KOTR, stoneforge, lilianna, and utility lands a slightly unfavorable matchup and how do ppl usually board against this mathcup?

2) Jund- I basically have the same questions, is this considered slightly unfavorable because of PF?/ and how do you board against Jund?

I apology if these questions are too general, I am COMPLETELY knew to the deck and would just like some general pointers on these matchups- which I run into a lot for some reason

cheers,

Emo

Esper3k
05-01-2014, 12:09 PM
I usually play RUG, I just picked up this deck and play tested it a little bit because I am playing around with different tempo decks. I have a couple questions about two MUs for Team America (not listed in the primer): the Rock (more fringe these days and Jund:

1) Generally speaking is the matchup against traditional rocklists with KOTR, stoneforge, lilianna, and utility lands a slightly unfavorable matchup and how do ppl usually board against this mathcup?

2) Jund- I basically have the same questions, is this considered slightly unfavorable because of PF?/ and how do you board against Jund?

I apology if these questions are too general, I am COMPLETELY knew to the deck and would just like some general pointers on these matchups- which I run into a lot for some reason

cheers,

Emo

Against most fair decks like the Rock, Deathblade, etc. I tend to become essentially a blue Jund deck post board. Without knowing your deck list, that means bringing out all your Forces and Dazes and bringing in all your Golgari Charms, Lilianas, etc. Krosan Grip and Clique come in vs the Stoneblade decks. Spell Pierce is probably fine vs Jund.

zenzog
05-01-2014, 12:45 PM
What exactly do you extract from miracles? Top if you are lucky?

Assuming you didn't board out your discard, you can occasionally get something relevant with a hymn or thoughtseize. If you extract any of the cards esper mentioned, the game gets significantly easier.

I don't think I've ever extracted top, but that could be good too.

Emo
05-01-2014, 03:20 PM
Against most fair decks like the Rock, Deathblade, etc. I tend to become essentially a blue Jund deck post board. Without knowing your deck list, that means bringing out all your Forces and Dazes and bringing in all your Golgari Charms, Lilianas, etc. Krosan Grip and Clique come in vs the Stoneblade decks. Spell Pierce is probably fine vs Jund.

Thank you much,

the list I am toying with now is

a stock list with 4 hymns no thoughtseizes and 2 lilianas
and I have 2 confidants in for my slot creatures instead of TNN or tombstalker


cheers,

Emo

Spike
05-03-2014, 05:56 PM
Played Team America at the Bazaar of Moxen to a 8-2 finish. Ended up 16th and got rewarded for my efforts with a fbb usea, yeha :)

Heres the list I've played:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage

And my matchups:
R1: Mirror 2-1
R2: RW Control/Prison 2-0
R3: Mirror 2-0
R4: Elves 2-1
R5: Manaless Dredge 2-1
R6: Miracle 2-1
R7: Death and Taxes (4 waste, 4 quarter :D) 1-2
R8: ANT 1-2
R9: Canadian 2-0
R10: Uwr Delver 2-0

Jace in the SB was awesome and I'm really happy with the deck. Wouldn't change anything at the moment.

Barbed Blightning
05-04-2014, 03:16 AM
Nice job!

Question: did you ever feel too threat-light? Was the library worth it main?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Purgatory
05-04-2014, 04:47 AM
Nicely done, congrats on the finish?

What did you board Jace against? Miracles?

Spike
05-04-2014, 11:38 AM
I've been playing three Goyfs since GP Paris and it feels much better for me. Didnt have any problems regarding thread-density, basically I'm just playing a Library over the fourth Goyf. Library is a boss in many matchups at the moment, especially against Miracles for sure.

The Jaces are mainly for Miracles and TA. He single-handedly won me both mirror matches (and that match against the random RW Control deck ;) ). While testing we found out that its actually quite easy to resolve Jace against Miracles cause they usually board out their Forces anyway. He improves both matchups drastically.
Although I didnt find one in the match against Miracle, but Null Rod did a good job instead, shutting down top and explosives :)

Zombie
05-04-2014, 12:07 PM
Have you considered maybe playing a maindeck Tar Pit to compensate for the lost Goyf?

Cire_dk
05-05-2014, 03:56 AM
Wel done Spike. Unfortunately I did not do so well in a local 40 people tournament. After 3 losses I dropped (elves, dredge, and sword of meek thopter combo) Nice to have Jace in board.
I Played TNN but have the impression good old fasioned Tomb Stalker might have been better.

Any suggestion for boarding against elves because for me it remains a difficult match up.

Looking forward to your report.

Asthereal
05-05-2014, 04:26 AM
Played a local tourney yesterday. 40 guys showed up, so that's not bad for a monthly LGS tourney.
I played the following list:

4 Delver, 4 Deathrite, 4 Goyf, 2 Stalker (14)
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Hymn, 4 Decay, 1 Sylvan, 1 Liliana (26)
4 Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Tropical, 9 Fetch, 4 Wasteland (20)

Side:
4 Pierce
3 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana
1 Vendilion Clique /15

The matchups:

Round 1: Shardless BUG. 0-2 No real chance here. Stumbled on mana game 1. Game 2 he just draws well and his card advantage is too much for me to handle. This matchup is pretty hard, and if they manage to get in control, it's lights out.
(side: +1 Sylvan, +1 Lily, +3 Disfigure, +1 Clique, -4 Force, -1 Ponder, -1 Waste, I think)

Round 2: Burn. 2-1 Game one he kills me before I get stuff going. Game 2 and 3 are exciting but I manage to have him run out of gas and kill him in time.
(side: -4 Wasteland, -1 Sylvan, -1 Ponder, -1 Lily (expensive), +3 Disfigure, +4 Pierce)

Round 3: Elves. 2-0 Game one I counter an Order and kill a guy. I build an army and get there. Game two I counter an Order and a Zenith for 8. He had slow hands both games. Lots of Visionaries.
(Side: -4 Wasteland (wasting Cradle is too late usually), -4 Daze, -1 Sylvan, -1 Lily (too slow), +3 Disfigure, +2 Charm, +1 Cage, +4 Pierce)

Round 4: Gbu Nic Fit. 1-2 Game one he gets control with Witness into Cryptic Command. I still had a chance but I made a mistake that cost me the game. If I hadn't made that mistake, I don't know whether I'd have won, but at least there would be a chance still. Game two he stumbles on mana and I kill him. Game three he gets control again and he kills me on turn five of the extra turns because three Brainstorms and two shuffle effects cannot find me a Charm to kill Clique and 2x Strix.
(side: -4 Decay, -1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -1 Ponder, +4 Pierce, +2 Charm (regenerating against Deed), +1 Grip (kills Top), +1 Lily, +1 Sylvan, +1 Clique.)

Round 5: Team America. 2-1 Game one I'm just never in there. He is on the play, I have an awkward start and he just tempos me out. Game two he gets Jace out, but my Sylvan Library got me ahead and at some point I manage to kill Jace and snatch the game with just one life point left. He needed Delver to flip to kill me here, but fate was merciful for me. Game three I have control over the board and never lose it.
(side: -4 Force, -4 Daze, +3 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +2 Pierce)

Round 6: RW Mud. 2-1 Game one he mulls to five and I have an easy win. Game two I destroy a Chalice@1 and counter a Rest in Peace, but he immidiately plays a second one. This slows down my onslaught and gives him time to play a moon effect. I still present lethal at some point, but he finds a Helm just in time for him to win. Game three I am faster than him. I present lethal. He plays Rest in Peace. I attack with Delver, which again presents lethal. This time he has no answer.
(side: -4 Daze, -1 Stalker, -1 Sylvan, -1 Hymn, -1 Lily (slow), +3 Disfigure, +4 Spell Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique -yes that's 61 cards after sideboarding. He had that card that makes discard do nothing at all, which sucks, so perhaps I should have cut all Hymns, but I'm not sure.)

So I made 4-2, which got me to 10th place or so. Not bad, but it's a shame I punted in the Nic Fit game. I could have drawn that one, which could have been enough for top-8. Sharp play is still absolutely necessary with this deck.

Who here has advice on my boarding? I don't think I did bad, but tips are always welcome. :smile:

Barbed Blightning
05-05-2014, 10:57 AM
Played a local tourney yesterday. 40 guys showed up, so that's not bad for a monthly LGS tourney.
I played the following list:

4 Delver, 4 Deathrite, 4 Goyf, 2 Stalker (14)
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Hymn, 4 Decay, 1 Sylvan, 1 Liliana (26)
4 Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Tropical, 9 Fetch, 4 Wasteland (20)

Side:
4 Pierce
3 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana
1 Vendilion Clique /15

The matchups:

Round 1: Shardless BUG. 0-2 No real chance here. Stumbled on mana game 1. Game 2 he just draws well and his card advantage is too much for me to handle. This matchup is pretty hard, and if they manage to get in control, it's lights out.
(side: +1 Sylvan, +1 Lily, +3 Disfigure, +1 Clique, -4 Force, -1 Ponder, -1 Waste, I think)

Round 2: Burn. 2-1 Game one he kills me before I get stuff going. Game 2 and 3 are exciting but I manage to have him run out of gas and kill him in time.
(side: -4 Wasteland, -1 Sylvan, -1 Ponder, -1 Lily (expensive), +3 Disfigure, +4 Pierce)

Round 3: Elves. 2-0 Game one I counter an Order and kill a guy. I build an army and get there. Game two I counter an Order and a Zenith for 8. He had slow hands both games. Lots of Visionaries.
(Side: -4 Wasteland (wasting Cradle is too late usually), -4 Daze, -1 Sylvan, -1 Lily (too slow), +3 Disfigure, +2 Charm, +1 Cage, +4 Pierce)

Round 4: Gbu Nic Fit. 1-2 Game one he gets control with Witness into Cryptic Command. I still had a chance but I made a mistake that cost me the game. If I hadn't made that mistake, I don't know whether I'd have won, but at least there would be a chance still. Game two he stumbles on mana and I kill him. Game three he gets control again and he kills me on turn five of the extra turns because three Brainstorms and two shuffle effects cannot find me a Charm to kill Clique and 2x Strix.
(side: -4 Decay, -1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -1 Ponder, +4 Pierce, +2 Charm (regenerating against Deed), +1 Grip (kills Top), +1 Lily, +1 Sylvan, +1 Clique.)

Round 5: Team America. 2-1 Game one I'm just never in there. He is on the play, I have an awkward start and he just tempos me out. Game two he gets Jace out, but my Sylvan Library got me ahead and at some point I manage to kill Jace and snatch the game with just one life point left. He needed Delver to flip to kill me here, but fate was merciful for me. Game three I have control over the board and never lose it.
(side: -4 Force, -4 Daze, +3 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +2 Pierce)

Round 6: RW Mud. 2-1 Game one he mulls to five and I have an easy win. Game two I destroy a Chalice@1 and counter a Rest in Peace, but he immidiately plays a second one. This slows down my onslaught and gives him time to play a moon effect. I still present lethal at some point, but he finds a Helm just in time for him to win. Game three I am faster than him. I present lethal. He plays Rest in Peace. I attack with Delver, which again presents lethal. This time he has no answer.
(side: -4 Daze, -1 Stalker, -1 Sylvan, -1 Hymn, -1 Lily (slow), +3 Disfigure, +4 Spell Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique -yes that's 61 cards after sideboarding. He had that card that makes discard do nothing at all, which sucks, so perhaps I should have cut all Hymns, but I'm not sure.)

So I made 4-2, which got me to 10th place or so. Not bad, but it's a shame I punted in the Nic Fit game. I could have drawn that one, which could have been enough for top-8. Sharp play is still absolutely necessary with this deck.

Who here has advice on my boarding? I don't think I did bad, but tips are always welcome. :smile:

Pierce vs nic fit of any kind seems terrible.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Esper3k
05-05-2014, 11:23 AM
Pierce vs nic fit of any kind seems terrible.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I actually think some number is fine. On the play, it lets you counter their Tops, and it makes playing Deed much worse. BUG lists often run Birthing Pod too and from the report above, he saw Cryptic Command in g1.

I don't really like Liliana in the matchup, myself.

Barbed Blightning
05-05-2014, 11:39 AM
I actually think some number is fine. On the play, it lets you counter their Tops, and it makes playing Deed much worse. BUG lists often run Birthing Pod too and from the report above, he saw Cryptic Command in g1.

I don't really like Liliana in the matchup, myself.

Seriously? Lilly is the nuts. Most versions of nic fit have a terrible time dealing with her.

My problem with pierce is that it has zero value past turn 4.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Asthereal
05-05-2014, 01:36 PM
Seriously? Lilly is the nuts. Most versions of nic fit have a terrible time dealing with her.

My problem with pierce is that it has zero value past turn 4.
Daze seemed even worse. That's why I swapped them.
Might be wrong though. Maybe I should have gone +3 Pierce and keep one Ponder.
For me, it's almost an automatic thing swapping Ponder for the second Sylvan.

I must say the second Sylvan was great. Only one game where I had Sylvan it drew me only crap, but that would have been even worse without it, so I guess I shouldn't blame the Library for it.

YamiJoey
05-06-2014, 06:24 AM
I agree with the general consensus of 'Remove tax Spells', but if you're trying to beat Carpet of Flowers, they're not terrible answers to it. They also hit Burning Wish and other early set-up Spells. Half of our deck probably becomes dead in the late game, including all of our removal, so adding more cards to beat their early game and make them play more fair on mana for a while does sound like a good idea.

That said a T1 Veteran Explorer is going to undo all of this work. Perhaps Pierce on the draw to counter Wishes and stuff, Daze on the play because you can still hit a Vet?

Also the versions of Nic Fit I'm used to couldn't care less about Lili. Her -2 does flat nothing, if not worse, and her + ability is easily countered by them playing a tonne of disposable cards, and being able to just play with Top and slam random threats for the rest of the game until you just die. As far as I can work out our plan is to just keep them off of their major accelerants and keep them from gaining any value from stuff like Crop Rotation via Wasteland. We generally want to pull in Grip and or Pulse, and probably still want all of your removal, as bad as it generally is. Charms seem fine for hitting anything like RiP, Carpet, Library, Bitterblossom, or any of the other 68,000 cards they can randomly slam. At worst it'll save your guy from a Decay. Woot woot. I also just bring in all of our threats. Whatever you've got. That's usually why Lili makes the cut, because she can actually win the game by just double/triple Stone Raining them two or three times.

Esper3k
05-06-2014, 08:44 AM
Seriously? Lilly is the nuts. Most versions of nic fit have a terrible time dealing with her.

My problem with pierce is that it has zero value past turn 4.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

How is Liliana awesome against them? In my experience, her -2 is pretty bad because of all the value creatures they play like Eternal Witness, Titans, Thragtusk. Gods forbid they have a Veteran Explorer out.

Her +1 is alright, but they often play Tops and I think you really want to be holding countermagic/removal to stop the bombs they manage to ramp into.

Asthereal
05-06-2014, 09:36 AM
I was thinking her ultimate should be pretty good against Nic Fit, but yeah the -2 is pretty terrible. I didn't side out my Decays for nothing.
Maybe it's just a very hard matchup, I don't know. I sure as hell never prepared for it. :wink: