Best order to get power

[JPoJohnson]

So, I think I'm going to dip into buying power starting in the coming months and I'm not looking to get a full playset, just some specific ones:
1. Black Lotus
2. Mox Sapphire
3. Mox Ruby
4. Time Walk
5. Ancestral Recall

I know a lot of people recommend buying from the top down, but I'm most likely going to get black lotus last unless someone can really make a case for buying it first (I wouldn't be getting it for a solid 6 months if I did it that way I would imagine). I'm curious what order people would recommend to accquire these cards and why? Would love any input! (:

I'm currently leaning towards:
Ancestral Recall/Time Walk (whichever I find a better good deal on first
Mox Sapphire
Mox Ruby/Black Lotus

Thanks for any and all advice (:

[Whippoorwill]

Nat Moes pretty much covered why I'm working on my set from the top down in a recent article:

http://manadeprived.com/one-mans-quest-power/


This makes for an exciting incentive, since once you have a Black Lotus, you’re hooked. It also means it’s a downhill journey. Getting a Lotus for $600 (in 2007) makes getting Ancestral Recall for $350 look so much easier. By the time you get through the Moxes, getting Mana Drains and Library of Alexandria for $80 is a piece of cake!

When I got my Lotus, my mindset was that if I got it I was committing to the goal of the complete set. If I wasn't able to get it I wasn't going to bother with the rest.

If you're 100% sure you'll complete the set at some point then I don't think the order matters, but getting the Lotus first does make it much more exciting knowing that you got the most expensive one out of the way already.

[Megadeus]

Agree. I can see it being like buying a legacy deck. Buy all the cheap stuff, minus the duals and expensive staples, then you are like "I just bought 60% of this deck for 100 dollars, now I gotta get the other 40% for 1900 dollars" and give up.

(Even though obviously power is a tad more expensive, just a comparison)

[nedleeds]

Lotus is also the card that just goes in everything. Even a build with 3 Null Rods will choose to play Black Lotus because its ... well 3 mana for 0.

Lotus is going to continue to go shit cock bonkers after vintage online. People will realize how fucking shitty modern and legacy cards are compared to power.

[JPoJohnson]

Yeah, I figured that was the advice I would get. The one concern I have with getting a Black Lotus is the massive price range that cards go for in that. The reason why I'm concerned is I don't know how well cards that are in played condition hold up. If I get a card with Moderate Play and keep it double sleeved and treat it nice (take it out on dates and buy it pretty gifts), how well would the card hold up in 10, 20 years? I just haven't been in Magic long enough to know this type of information about cards. Thanks (:

[mini1337s]

Yeah, I figured that was the advice I would get. The one concern I have with getting a Black Lotus is the massive price range that cards go for in that. The reason why I'm concerned is I don't know how well cards that are in played condition hold up. If I get a card with Moderate Play and keep it double sleeved and treat it nice (take it out on dates and buy it pretty gifts), how well would the card hold up in 10, 20 years? I just haven't been in Magic long enough to know this type of information about cards. Thanks (:
They've held up 20 years so far. Realistically, they have a finite life, as any product made of paper would, but I would wager you have a long time before that comes into play (aka 40+ years minimum, assuming it's not left exposed to the elements everyday, in a damp environment, etc etc). Look at baseball cards from the 19th century; there are plenty that are holding up fine.

In terms of buying power, I wish I had gone top-down. It took me 6 months to justify buying a Lotus when I had all the other power. Get the big one out of the way and work your way into the cheaper ones. Also, sooner than later should be your gameplan, as these cards just keep going up, up, up.

What is your budget for buying power? Do you want sleeve playable or NM?

[Myelectronicdays]

+1 to getting lotus first. I actually got it 5th.. but its a good feeling to get that nut swallowed. My trade in binder looks like a bomb went off in it.. but the rest of the journey feels SO much easier once you do it.

[JPoJohnson]

What is your budget for buying power? Do you want sleeve playable or NM?

Realistically I could buy them all by the end of 2014, but I obviously want to spend the least amount necessary haha (:

I want them to be in the best possible condition... I'm ok with sleeve playable to an extent, but there are some poor quality sleeve cards that I would never want to own.

[Royal Ass.]

My advice would be to get as many power cards as you can before Vintage online goes live. I feel that's going to lead to a lot more interest in power. Even just a relatively small increase in interest in the format could cause prices to increase significantly since the number of cards in existence is so small. NM Alpha Lotus now retails for 10k. It's shot up a lot in the past year or two. The game is 20 years old. These cards are becoming iconic/pop culture. It's more than just the Type 1 format.

[Michael Keller]

My advice would be to get as many power cards as you can before Vintage online goes live. I feel that's going to lead to a lot more interest in power. Even just a relatively small increase in interest in the format could cause prices to increase significantly since the number of cards in existence is so small. NM Alpha Lotus now retails for 10k. It's shot up a lot in the past year or two. The game is 20 years old. These cards are becoming iconic/pop culture. It's more than just the Type 1 format.

I've been investing more and more into Vintage as of late. I've own scattered pieces of power over the years, but just acquired two in one shot: an Unlimited Ancestral Recall and Mox Ruby. Definitely excited to play more Vintage.

[WorstBandNameEver]

My advice would be to get as many power cards as you can before Vintage online goes live. I feel that's going to lead to a lot more interest in power. Even just a relatively small increase in interest in the format could cause prices to increase significantly since the number of cards in existence is so small. NM Alpha Lotus now retails for 10k. It's shot up a lot in the past year or two. The game is 20 years old. These cards are becoming iconic/pop culture. It's more than just the Type 1 format.

I have been floating this same piece of advice around. If vintage gets even 20 more players looking to buy power on ebay as a results of MTGO Vintage, prices can be impacted.

[mini1337s]

There is just such a finite amount of Power in comparison to anything printed after Revised.
The estimation of each rare that WOTC printed in A/B/U breaks down to (approximately):

1,100 copies of each Alpha Rare
3,200 copies of each Beta Rare
18,500 copies of each Unlimited Rare

That leaves us a grand total of 22,800 copies of any piece of power EVER printed. Compare that to the 289,000 copies of each Revised dual which, when you break it down to the equivalent of what you need for power (1 instead of 4), still has an approximate print run of 72,250.

In a perfect world, where every piece of power ever printed was available, no more than 22,000 - 23,000 could play Vintage. When you account for the cards that were lost/destroyed and the copies that were slabbed for eternity, it's no wonder the price is insane. I wouldn't be able to make an accurate estimation of how many pieces are left, but I would be VERY surprised if that number surpassed 13,000-14,000 copies of each card in existence, with the amount ever potentially returning to the market being dramatically lower.

In short, if you are serious about playing Vintage or want to fulfill some teenage nostalgia, get in while you still can.


Here are the stats/breakdowns for the actual rare distribution of early sets: http://www.usc.edu/dept/Deckmasters/archive/mtg/printrun.txt

+++

The next big thing, atleast in my estimation, will be a substantial increase in the value of Unlimited rares, in particular UNL dual lands. For every Unlimited Dual, there are nearly 16 copies of the Revised Version. The difference in price is pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things, considering their rarity. Hell, I can go buy a Revised booster for $45, but good luck finding an Unlimited booster for sale.

[nedleeds]

or Bazaars ... the next logical conclusion once power creeps north is people will turn to the dark side ... dredge is still, for all the hate printed quite fucking insane in Vintage

The trickle down could continue to other things that are currently dirt cheap but reserved list like Oath of Druids.

[Michael Keller]

or Bazaars ... the next logical conclusion once power creeps north is people will turn to the dark side ... dredge is still, for all the hate printed quite fucking insane in Vintage

The trickle down could continue to other things that are currently dirt cheap but reserved list like Oath of Druids.

A Leyline of the Void and two Grafdigger's Cage couldn't stop it a few weeks back when I played against it.

Bazaars and Workshops may not be a part of the "Power Nine," but I'll tell you what: those cards are just as, if not more so, powerful than Moxen, Timetwister or Time Walk on any given turn. The advantage they give you is second to none. Workshop is like a reusable Black Lotus each turn and Bazaar basically allows you to flip your deck without interaction. It even draws you into answers.

Also consider these cards were printed in only one set each within the game's first year of existence, respectively. Power has seen three different printings. Although to be fair, Bazaar and Workshop define archetypes they're so powerful.

[mini1337s]

I think it's fair to say that Bazaar and Workshop generally don't have the same image/level of nostalgia that the Power 9 do. While they are equally/more powerful in certain situations, they are generally restricted to one archetype.
Don't get me wrong, they are probably underpriced/valued considering their power level and rarity, but fewer people want to restrict themselves to just Dredge or MUD. Some have enough disposable income to own P9, Shops, and Bazaars, but Vintage is the one format where I can sympathize with price barriers.
Personally, I'm just going to play various iterations of non-MUD/Bazaar decks. Once I buy a Time Vault, I'm finished staples-wise, and I can play enough decks that I'll be happy with my investment. No Spheres for me.

Also, Nedleeds, dude is still waiting for the Type II version (http://www.usc.edu/dept/Deckmasters/archive/mtg/som5.4):

http://i.imgur.com/GyxyBOI.png

"I have had it with counters, fireballs etc. etc JUST DIE!!!" Still quotable I'd say

[Michael Keller]

I think it's fair to say that Bazaar and Workshop generally don't have the same image/level of nostalgia that the Power 9 do. While they are equally/more powerful in certain situations, they are generally restricted to one archetype.
Don't get me wrong, they are probably underpriced/valued considering their power level and rarity, but fewer people want to restrict themselves to just Dredge or MUD. Some have enough disposable income to own P9, Shops, and Bazaars, but Vintage is the one format where I can sympathize with price barriers.
Personally, I'm just going to play various iterations of non-MUD/Bazaar decks. Once I buy a Time Vault, I'm finished staples-wise, and I can play enough decks that I'll be happy with my investment. No Spheres for me.

Right now, Workshops are actually commanding a price equivalent to - or in some instances higher than - Power. Bazaars are on their way up as well, and given the relative ease of building Dredge for Vintage hopefuls, Bazaar is likely to see a steady increase in the foreseeable future.

EDIT: Just picked up an Unlimited Sapphire. Pretty stoked. My pick-up order (starting from scratch again) so far has gone like this:

1. Ancestral Recall
2. Mox Ruby
3. Mox Sapphire

[Quasim0ff]

I've got, in this order:

Recall
Time Walk
Sapphire
Emerald
and is debating between Jet and Ruby now. (I play either BUG or RUG, so all 5 isn't needed).

I presume the last I will get is most likely twister.
The last 4 pieces will be:
Jet/Ruby
Lotus
Time Vault
Pearl
Twister

[Higgs]

I tried to go from most expensive to the cheapest but funnily enough, because of Vintage Masters and me not being able to collect them before the price creep, I ended up paying more for the cheaper pieces. My order was Lotus, Jet, Sapphire, Recall, Walk, Ruby, Pearl, Emerald..

[JPoJohnson]

So... I know that Dredge is extremely powerful in Vintage to the point where builds like Cagebreaker dredge can beat out the hate and regular dredge has speed and inevitability on it's side as well... But I would say almost every single person I've spoken to on TheManaDrain hates the deck, says that it is weak, and that it's a horrible deck from this point on. I disagree but can see how it could potentially not be fun to be the deck with the most hate against you in the format. Why would they say it's a poor deck choice?

[mini1337s]

So... I know that Dredge is extremely powerful in Vintage to the point where builds like Cagebreaker dredge can beat out the hate and regular dredge has speed and inevitability on it's side as well... But I would say almost every single person I've spoken to on TheManaDrain hates the deck, says that it is weak, and that it's a horrible deck from this point on. I disagree but can see how it could potentially not be fun to be the deck with the most hate against you in the format. Why would they say it's a poor deck choice?
With any "eggs-in-one-basket" deck, it can lose to hate. You see many recent versions of Dredge running maindeck Mental Missteps and Nature's Claim to deal with graveyard hate, especially as Grafdigger's Cage is a popular singleton in many maindecks. That said, the deck is absolutely bananas when it's not fighting through hate; just completely one-sided versus most decks (with storm and MUD occasionally being exceptions).
The worst part about building dredge, is playing dredge. Unless you enjoy the dredge mechanic, it can get old quickly, but your mileage may vary. Lots of butthurt vintage semi-casuals hate playing against it in non-tournament settings as the games are pretty damn linear.

[aahz]

I never understood all the general ill-will toward dredge either. Interestingly, many of the haters seem to not know how to play against the deck very well. Personally I find Dredge to be fascinating and elegant (and this is coming from a long time blue control player). I keep it my deck rotation because it's fun to play and I like to change things up; I get bored playing the same deck all the time.

[H]

Why would they say it's a poor deck choice?

Like previous poster's have said, it is a very linear strategy. I think a lot of hate comes from people also just not liking to play both with it and against it. There is also a ton of variance that comes with playing it, which doesn't make it the best long-term strategy. Of course, there is the dynamic that when people think Dredge is bad and cut hate, Dredge becomes good again.

Personally, I never leave home without at least 6 Dredge hate cards, so I'd rather play against it all day rather than play a Workshop matchup. At least if I am playing against Dredge, if I keep a good hand, I can win, but verses Workshops, I might just lose because I am on the draw.

[JPoJohnson]

Like previous poster's have said, it is a very linear strategy. I think a lot of hate comes from people also just not liking to play both with it and against it. There is also a ton of variance that comes with playing it, which doesn't make it the best long-term strategy. Of course, there is the dynamic that when people think Dredge is bad and cut hate, Dredge becomes good again.

Personally, I never leave home without at least 6 Dredge hate cards, so I'd rather play against it all day rather than play a Workshop matchup. At least if I am playing against Dredge, if I keep a good hand, I can win, but verses Workshops, I might just lose because I am on the draw.

Sure, I see the linear gameplay.

I already have 5 Proxy UR Delver and URx Landstill and 4 proxy Merfolk. While I'm working towards power I figure having dredge would add a completely different dynamic to the decks I have an give me a completely different option for vintage decks. It just felt odd for every single person I spoke to over there to shoot it down. Every single one.

[H]

Sure, I see the linear gameplay.

I already have 5 Proxy UR Delver and URx Landstill and 4 proxy Merfolk. While I'm working towards power I figure having dredge would add a completely different dynamic to the decks I have an give me a completely different option for vintage decks. It just felt odd for every single person I spoke to over there to shoot it down. Every single one.

Yeah, even Mark Hornung (who won Champs with Dredge) had moved on from it, although I don't think he plays much any more. Pretty much, everyone who plays or played Dredge have realized it is only good in a meta unprepared for it and so have begun to play other things until the time is right.

I would certainly pick it up and try it, but I certainly wouldn't play it every tournament.

[Michael Keller]

Yeah, even Mark Hornung (who won Champs with Dredge) had moved on from it, although I don't think he plays much any more. Pretty much, everyone who plays or played Dredge have realized it is only good in a meta unprepared for it and so have begun to play other things until the time is right.

I would certainly pick it up and try it, but I certainly wouldn't play it every tournament.

This isn't just applicable to Vintage. I just recently gave up on Dredge after having played it for four years straight. It just gets so tiring having to deal with hate on a regular basis.

[KindGrind]

I keep Dredge sleeved up at all times because I have no use for the cards in it elsewhere... ever. I admit I was tempted to trade the Bazaars towards the Power I'm missing, but felt like I prefer having a whole deck to lend someone than a single card. Plus, I know myself... If I do this I'd end up rebuying the Bazaars somewhere down the line.

I really respect the sheer power Dredge, but when I play it I feel, like many, that I'm not really playing MTG.

Shops, on the other hand, bring out the little boy in me. I've been toying with Affinity and I can't help but grin as I clamp my guys...

[JPoJohnson]

This isn't just applicable to Vintage. I just recently gave up on Dredge after having played it for four years straight. It just gets so tiring having to deal with hate on a regular basis.

You did!? What did you switch to?

[Michael Keller]

I'm taking a break from Legacy all together. I play a modified version of U/R Delver (Gush) in Vintage.

[death]

Start with Ancestral Recall if you can. That's what I did. It's the single most powerful spell in the game and the second most expensive. It's card advantage easily tutorable with MT, Scroll replayed via Snapcaster. Every deck plays it, even Dredge. The same can't be said about the Lotus. With Recall + Walk + 2 Moxen you can play Landstill or Gush Aggro. Those decks don't need a Lotus that bad compared to say Jace Control or Storm combo decks etc.

Here's my order:
1. Ancestral Recall
2. Time Walk/Black Lotus
3. Mox Sapphire or Ruby or Jet

Last on the list is Emerald and Pearl unless you need those specific colors like in Oath, Bomberman or Mentor decks. Timetwister is just icing on the P9 cake, after Time Vault and Imperial Seal. If your first power is Twister better get rid of it now and get something useful like a Recall. Oh, and make sure you're buying real shit:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?870424 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=870424&viewfull=1#post870424)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?875601 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=875601&viewfull=1#post875601)

[mini1337s]

Always Lotus first. Biggest hurdle to jump and if you get it first, the rest is gravy. There is no alternative to the acceleration it provides and, with the exception of Dredge, it is played in literally any non-budget deck.
Ancestral or Time Walk are decent to start with, but you will find that the Lotus feels a bit farther away with each other piece of power you buy.

1. Lotus
2. Ancestral Recall
3. Time Walk
4. Mox Sapphire
5/6: Mox Jet or Ruby
7/8: Mox Pearl or Emerald

[emidln]

Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Time Walk
Mox Emerald
Timetwister
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl

These reflect the importance of each card to Vintage Doomsday. I wouldn't fault someone for just stopping after Jet.

[Koby]

Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Time Walk
Mox Emerald
Timetwister
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl

These reflect the importance of each card to Vintage Doomsday. I wouldn't fault someone for just stopping after Jet.

I would argue that Time Walk is higher priority than Mox Jet, just to complete the "blue power" quite. Some decks prioritize Moxen over spells, but almost all Blue based decks will utilize Time Walk. Most Fish can get away with just 1 Mox (Sapphire), but will most certainly include Time Walk.