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Lejay
11-01-2014, 04:24 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0f8nD3IIAEODcw.jpg:large (http://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/the-parisian-butt-plug-christmas-tree-has-been-destroyed)



The name

Green stompy isn’t that relevant anymore because of all the splashes, and beast stompy is a bit excessive with just six beasts. I named it sylvan plug because I created it with the help of Tristan Polzl just when the “sculpture” on the picture was presented in Paris and it made me think of the deck.
If people find a better name (GB Prison ? Rest of the world versus blue ?) I’ll probably change it as I don’t like non-descriptive names. Though one can argue “Sylvan plug” being pretty well descriptive of what the deck does.

The idea

Two weeks ago I was discussing with Tristan about how good choke would be main deck right now as the meta is so blue, and how more impactful it would be than red elemental blast which already showed up in several non painter decks main (mainly miracles). The problem was not running blue ourselves. After thinking about playing a GUx deck with non island blue lands we decided to make it simple and play a stompy shell that hates even more against cantrips and counters.
Since the list has been spoiled a few days ago I figured I’d share it with people, especially those going to the GP and wanting to hate out for the top tables.

The deck

First list presented in the thread after two weeks of testing :
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland

3 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Obstinate Baloth
2 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kalonian Hydra
3 Deathrite Shaman


Sideboard :
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Mountain
3 Ruination
2 Krosan Grip
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Dawnstrider
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Massacre
1 Savannah
1 Toxic Deluge


Accels :

At first we ran a classic 6-7 sol lands + mox chrome and elvish spirit guide. All of their numbers were quickly reduced, reduced again, and finally completely disappeared for some.
First because you don’t want to turn one as many things as in other stompy shells, you don’t play moon effects or suppression field to go along chalice and trinisphere. There is choke but that is not really a turn one spell. Second when playing our first versions the most difficult decks to face where blue stoneforge decks which were very good at grinding us out. I quickly identified that siding out the card disadvantage accelerators was the right call despite being a bit slower was a handicap. This is how I decided to try to run one and then up to 3 deathrite shaman.
Running them alongside chalices will probably the most controversial and debated choice in this deck. What if you draw them with a chalice at one on the table ? Well first drawing a mox or an elvish spirit guide won’t do a lot either in general. And second with the chalice in play you should be in a great shape. Being able to play your key lock elements daze proof or one turn earlier without losing cards is a great thing. Even when your opponent kills your turn one deathrite shaman with a bolt before you play turn two chalice you should be happy to screw his turn one or two by forcing his play. If you didn’t play shaman maybe he would have a delver in play or maybe the cantrip he would have played would have granted him some free countermagic for chalice.
For people still planning on testing with turn 0 accels my last configuration before shamans was 2 chrome mox, 2 ESG, 2 gemstone caverns. That split limits the disadvantages of each and caverns are nice to have with courser. I maintain that running a few deathrites is the best choice though.

Manabase :

3 Ancient tomb : tomb is of course the best choice in a deck with 4 and 5 (6 with GSZ) cmc. Despite our life gain effects 4 was a real problem against aggressive strategies, and UR is the N°1 DTB since treasure cruise. Since with deathrite you will be happy to play turn 2 chalices that are daze proof or pierce proof I don’t mind the 3 that much.

1 City of traitors : sometimes you pay its disadvantage but you should have made good use of the mana most of the time if that’s the case. You don’t want too many of it and I like assuring the colored mana for DRS and GG2 baloths, so I am happy with one even if I ran 2 for some time.

4 verdant catacombs, 4 wooded foothills : verdant catacombs is a must, and I upped the count for deathrite and because of the sideboard ruinations.

3 bayou : I had two for a while but you rarely suffer from wasteland with so many basics and fetches so the third was added to ensure you could cast your black spells and rolling spoil with full power.

1 wasteland : I liked having two but I wanted to be careful with colorless mana. With DRS it’s possible it’s right to run more (my build when I tested without chalice had 4). But I don’t want to waste a ton of lands since blue bilands will be lotus petals anyway. It takes care of a karakas/scrubland/bayou in general to prevent your opponent to playing with the trinisphere/choke lock. Rolling spoil is better for basics and versatility.

1 dryad arbor : you’ll hate when you have it in starting hand but it makes your gsz awesome the rest of the time and I don’t think we can afford playing two. That can be tested though.

Prison elements :

4 trinisphere, 4 chokes : First core of this deck. In the current legacy metagame they are very painful for your average opponent. By themselves they are quite impactful, but having both is pretty much GG. I had 3 and 3 main deck for a while but after facing 90% of blue decks I realized they were by far the N°1 reason to play the deck so you want full playsets. If your local metagame isn’t blue enough to justify those then don’t play less than 8. Just play another deck.

4 Chalice of the void : Like I said I tried a build without them as I was very tempted by a 4 DRS 4 wasteland build. It seemed good, but chalice is definitely a huge thing. Not only it improves combo (I tried compensating with main deck Gaddock teeg without chalice but it’s not the same) but it also turns a game around against many decks including current big DTB UR Delver.

2 Rolling spoil : probably the only deck where you want to play it, but it feels like a legacy staple in it. It does two great things. Cutting off the opponent from his last manas (typically plains from miracles or mountain from UR) and killing x/1s threats including the very annoying True-name nemesis and the all around young pyromancer. It’s not that hard to cast in this deck and your other control elements give you plenty of time for that. You probably won’t realize how often the card is awesome before playing with it in this deck.
Of course looking for the –1/-1 effect be careful not to get wrecked by daze. But with trinisphere that isn’t much of an issue and worst case you can target one of your lands.

Stability / engine :

One reason I stayed away like many people from chalice decks in the last years was the inherent instability of these decks. Well mountains have moons, islands have force of will and mulldrifter, and forests have consistency thanks to two legacy staples :

4 Green sun’s zenith : llanowar elves turn one or your best creature at any point of the late game. Gives you a tool box and gives shuffling for sylvan library or courser.

3 Sylvan library : an early spell that often takes care of force and a blue card. Liked the card in various DTB shells as a one of ? Try it in a deck that wins a ton of life (hence the creature base) so that you can keep on drawing cards.
I used to play four in the chrome mox list and would definitely do it again if for some reason I go back to chrome (but with no more than 4 ancient tombs).

Creature base :

3 DRS : see accels. Also help with library and ancient tombs.

1 Courser of Kruphix : I played 2 or 3 and was happy with them. Now with DRS its cost is even more suitable. I only have one to tutor for mainly because I needed room for decay. You will definitely love the synergy with sylvan library and it also is a great early blocker that resists to a lightning bolt.

1 Reclamation sage : your no brain first tool box card. I used to play a second in sideboard alongside a wirewood symbiot for a while but the rest of the current list makes that unnecessary now.

4 Obstinate Baloth : people think I am edging versus discard with it and it certainly is something relevant against HTT, liliana and SoFaF. But those cards don’t see that much play nowadays, at least online. 4 life is a card drawn with sylvan library and helps not being punished for running ancient tomb. 4 cmc means it can’t be decayed and 4 toughness means it can’t be bolted. There are four because filling the curve at 4 is important. It doesn’t look like much but it does a lot in helping the deck being so good.

2 Thragtusk : Your big fatty for late game and to get versus control decks. It dies to lightning bolt but brings his buddy and hopefully by the time you can cast it / gsz for it you will have a chalice at one in play. Obviously gaining 5 life is a huge deal in this deck.

1 Kalonian hydra : There were various little problems this deck had at the beginning that were solved with not too many slots when we added natural order. But NO has various disadvantages and isn’t as powerful as a few years before. Thankfully I remembered the hydra existed. It could go through true-name nemesis or a big tarmogoyf for example without any problem. Two were nice but I cut down to one as more solutions to these common issues were entering the main deck (decays for goyf or delver instead of racing it, rolling spoil for TNN or Pyromancer etc…). It’s possible the right move is to cut it completely but it still saves my ass from time to time like no other card could as a big clock so I still run it.

Removal :

4 Abrupt decay : it took me a long time to incorporate it but this is a necessarily evil (though a pleasant one) as without it delver of secrets is too much of a pain. Before decay I only had a tutorable stingerfling spider and racing with gain life cratures or loxodon warhammer as my options. Splashing black wasn’t exactly a problem since I was already considering it for anti TNN sb cards and DRS full value.
It’s sad to not really care about CB, have a big curve, want to run more wastelands… and have to run it. But it still does a lot for the deck.

Sideboard :

Mountain and savannah : you probably guessed those are for the sideboard splashes but you are certainly thinking of those as a waste of space. That’s not the case (at least in the online metagame) because with so many UR and burn decks I need to be able to sideboard out my ancient tombs reliably, so I want at least two lands in the sideboard.
I tested a bit a configuration without ruinations and 2-3 sideboard wastelands but it seems underpowered compared to ruination. Cavern of souls is something I didn’t test but that’s because I am fairly certain it won’t be good with the regular urge of casting choke, decay or turn 1 GSZ. Uncounterability is also not a big thing when you run trinisphere and the priority in face of blue decks is mainly resolving your prison elements.

1 Scavenging ooze : A nice GSZ option versus graveyard decks and aggressive strategies. It is even better since I cut down on sol lands for more coloured mana.

3 ruination : this deck is probably one of the rare decks that will prefer ruination to blood moon. Because you like fetches with DRS/courser/library, because the 4cmc isn’t a problem with DRS/sol lands, and because you run trinisphere (mountains still pay for trini) and don’t want him to untap islands if you ever side it in a blue match-up. Don’t side it in automatically against bad manabases. I found out it’s not a good choice versus UWR delver for example as choke does the job very well and you need to deal with the board pretty fast. I think I still like it against deathblade and it’s of course a huge thing versus cloudpost (an otherwise hard match-up).
Only reason I see to run blood moon+ taiga instead is if your metagame has some number of thespian stage/dark depths combo.
If you don't have any cloudpost (or any other deck/uncareful player folding to ruination) in your metagame you should probably use these slots to adjust for specific slots against what you expect to face.

2 Krosan grip : not a random naturalize choice. Because patriot and esper players tend to keep mana open very often you really want the effect to deal with batterskul Otherwise it will grind you out. Not regretting my null rod for the second grip, you could even play 3.

1 stingerfling spider : awesome if you have it against sneak show, but its primary role is to answer a board of delvers with GSZ. Nice side in versus death and taxes also.

1 Dawnstrider : a very unique effect on a creature (spore frog isn’t as good I’d say). You want it mainly against natural order and infect. Yes elves can decay it (sad I cut the lightning greaves from the deck) but they also have to decay cotv or trinisphere in the early game. And after all, all you need is a little time thanks to kalonian hydra.

1 Gaddock Teeg : dismissed the choice for a long time because of the added colour and the disynergy with cotv/GSZ/Rolling spoil/ruination. I wanted another effect against NO and it proved quite useful versus other combo decks as well. Certainly not necessary versus miracles but I guess you are still happy to side it in.

1 maelstrom pulse : a catch-all that I am happy to side in versus control (batterskull, Jace…). Before ruination I liked bramblecrush x3. The nice thing with pulse is that it’s another answer to delvers.

2 massacre and 1 toxic deluge : I used to run the red splash for mass removal (firespour and pyroclasm) but you really want to be able to deal with TNN. Still not sure if this split is the best but I know I want at least two massacre for blue sfm match-ups. Having it free when there is no trinisphere is a huge deal because if the first one is countered you can play a second sweeper (deluge/massacre/rolling spoil) or a hoser like choke. “Sadly” that choice brings collateral damage on death and taxes.


Conclusion :

The meta is now bluer than ever which makes this deck a pretty real option. You have very nice match-ups versus the top decks of the format, particularly UR and miracles. I also tuned the deck to have good match-ups versus UWR delver and Esper. Elves is probably your difficult match-up among tier 1 but I still win almost half my matches (small sample though). Death and taxes as the other non blue deck that is popular suffers a lot from your cards meant to answer delvers, TNN and batterskull.
If burn is popular that is almost a bye despite not being blue.

If you have a medium+ level at MTG and can test the deck a minimum before the GP this deck gives you the potential to make a very good run if you win your first matches as top decks and top players will mostly be/play blue cantrips decks.
Also don’t be afraid to be lost because this deck will be new for you. Your opponents will be far more lost than you are.

Pre GP edit :

My current decklist :

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [] Reclamation Sage
1 [] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
1 [CMD] Golgari Signet
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [R] Savannah
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge


[B]Sideboarding for some common match-ups + some explanations with the list from just before the GP :

UR :
-3 ancient tomb -3 sylvan library -1 reclamation sage -1 Titania
+1 karakas +1 savannah +1 tower +1 ooze +1 stingerfling +1 deluge +2 massacre
I used to sideboard out all libraries but keeping one is acceptable to smooth out draws and find removal. It's possible Titania or hydra are better. If you are sure your opponent plays some vortex then keep the reclamation sage in (was an auto keep before decay). If you don't have sage post sideboard and don't know if the opponent might play vortex then use your decay carefully as keeping one for vortex can change the game. You have spider (maybe bassara) for delver, rolling spoil (mainly on mountain) for pyromancer, and blockers/trinisphere for monastery swiftswpear.
If you changed the sideboard it's possible to bring in even faerie macabre as that blocks delver. I didn't have the opportunity to test that but it seems fine if you lack cards to side in.

Burn :
-3 ancient tomb -3 sylvan library -4 choke
+3 lands +1 Ooze +1 qasali (used to side in both grips) +1 spike weaver +1 hydra +1 deluge +2 massacre
I used to sb out all sylvan libs but sideboard changed. Don't put more non basic lands on the battlefield than necessary. Trinisphere is very good so I keep rolling spoils unless I am sure they have absolutely no X/1 creatures and have something else to play.

Patriot delver :
-2 sylvan lib -4 trinisphere
+1 tower +1 qasali +1 spider (everytime they play delvers you side that in) +1 deluge +2 massacre
It seems weird to take out trinisphere against a blue deck. That is because post board you mostly have must counters so there is no point in protecting them when you can just play directly only very powerful spells outside of creatures. Choke is excellent and makes the game without trinisphere. I guess we could try cutting baloths though, but trading with batterskul when their mana is locked isn't useless.
Play around wear/tear if you can afford to and play rolling spoil on your own land if you fear daze.

Miracles :
-4 decay -1 swamp -1 forest (take out a wasteland instead if they seem to be particularly careful in fetching basics
+1 savannah +1 teeg +1 qasali +1 solifuge (for jace) +1 stingerfling (when they steal games it's generally with an early and small entreat) +1 hydra
I used to take out reclamation sage as they should side out cb and even if they don't it's not a big problem. But without grip and just one qasali it's safer. Qasali and sage handle SDT almost as well as grips if you have a chalice at one in play.

Deathblade :
-4 decay -1 swamp -1 forest -3 trinisphere
+1 tower +1 qasali +1 teeg +1 solifuge +1 deluge +2 massacre +1 savannah +1 karakas
Cutting some trinisphere because of the same reasoning as with patriot delver. I used to sideboard out chalices but recent decklists play treasure cruise and optimize it with many more 1cc spells than before. If your opponent has an old list try to remember that. It's possible kalonian is better than the last trinisphere. Karakas is useful versus clique and can bounce teeg if you have to play a chalice, spoil or GSZ.

Storm :
-4 decay -1 swamp -1 baloth -1 sage
+1 savannah +1 karakas +1 teeg +2 faerie macabre +1 solifuge (better than baloth) +1 hydra
If they play burning wish it's probably a good idea to side in a deluge for EtW, cutting a baloth or titania.
You side in karakas not just to protect teeg, but also to be able to cast a chalice if you played teeg in the early turns.

Omniclash :
-4 decay -1 swamp -1 baloth
+1 savannah +1 karakas +1 solifuge +1 stingerfling spider +1 qasali +1 hydra
Mulliganing agressively for trinisphere is not a bad idea as that is by far your best card but you can keep good hands without it (and draw it/find it with library). Don't play trinisphere and keep it in hand to put it on show and tell if you only have one as you really don't want it to be countered. Then you can lock with choke or destroy omniscience with GSZ-> reclamation sage.
It's worth noting that with qasali in play or krosan grip in hand you can put a baloth in play to prevent them from casting enter or emrakul, and in response blow the omniscience.
Good player will recognize show and tell-> emrakul as their best line of play at least game 3 so that explains the stingerfling and the karakas. Still an excellent match-up overall.

Elves :
-1 reclamation sage -4 choke -1 lib -1 swamp -1 Titania
+1 savannah +1 teeg +1 spike weaver+1 kalonian +1 deluge +2 massacre +1 karakas
Your main plan is disrupting them with lock pieces and removal until you can either kill them or install kalonian + spike weaver. Didn't have the opportunity to test Titania in this match-up but it seems slow.

Dredge :
-1 reclamation sage -3 decay -1 swamp -2 rolling spoil -4 choke
+1 savannah +1 karakas (Iona is frequent+teeg interaction) +1 teeg +1 scavenging ooze +2 faerie macabre +1 spike weaver +1 kalonian hydra+1 deluge +2 massacre
Trinisphere is quite good versus dredge. If you are playing versus manaless then it's really good. Chalices aren't that great but still do some work. Play one at zero if you have two and they still have cards in hand.

Reanimator :
-4 decay -1 swamp -2 rolling spoil -1 courser of kruphix -1 Baloth
+1 karakas +1 ooze +2 faerie macabre +1 stingerfling +1 hydra +1 deluge +1 spike weaver +1 giant solifuge
Not sure about baloth versus solifuge as baloth can win races but that seems fine.

Sneak show :
-4 decay -1 courser -1 swamp -2 baloth
+1 teeg +1 karakas +1 qasali +1 hydra +1 spike weaver +1 stingerfling +1 solifuge +1 deluge

Merfolk :
-4 chalice -1 trinisphere -1 sylvan library (maybe -2 trini or -2 library is right, not sure)
+1 spike weaver +1 kalonian +1 deluge +2 massacre +1 scavenging ooze
Funny match-up... for you.

Death and Taxes :
-4 choke -4 trinisphere -2 chalice of the void
+1 savannah +1 tower +1 qasali +1 Kalonian +1 Spike weaver +1 stingerfling spider +1 deluge +2 massacre +1 karakas
Chalices are weak to flickerwisp so I don't count too much on them. On the other hand you could argue for keeping three (cutting karakas) exactly because of that. But I don't feel their one cc are so important that I absolutely want a back-up chalice whenever possible. Karakas isn't really there for Thalia but more because they have heavy denial. However with wasteland for their ports and already so many lands I didn't have issues before when I had just two lands in the sideboard.
Try to use your removal wisely as some of their threats can't be answered by all (serra avenger/mirran crusader).

Don't forget to print those sb tables before leaving (or ask your hotel to do so), but as always adapt to what you see from your opponent.


A rules add-on in case of :

If a courser is in play with library, your opponent is supposed to see each card drawn (whether you put it back or not) since not only there is a trigger for sylvan that can be responded, but also each draw on a "draw X" is treated separately. That is why someone can play a careful study with just one dredger, dredge another dredger, and dredge it with the second draw.
You also see the top card while wondering if you should pay life or keep cards, that can help in decisions for example in making you pay 8 life and use the top card as your land drop for the turn.
Putting back two card is not treated as putting one then putting another one back as it is for drawing multiple cards. So if you put back two cards, your opponent should know the top card, the third card, but not the second card and what you kept in hand.

While trinisphere could be easily remembered before as "you pay no less than 3", delve changed its wording a few months ago. Since you pay for trinisphere by removing cards now, you can play one blue mana for treasure cruise removing seven cards. With omniscience in play the opponent can play DTT for zero mana by removing 3 cards in the graveyard.

Einherjer
11-01-2014, 06:11 AM
I'd scoop to this.

Honestly, this deck would be my #2 choice for GPNJ. Well done at brewing this up buddy and what a pitty that you cant join us at the GP! :(

Greetings

Norm
11-01-2014, 07:01 AM
Lejay, this is a really sweet deck. I definitely laughed when I first saw this online but I can see how this will enter the format. Good job, can't wait to see the rest of your primer.

ahg113
11-01-2014, 08:54 AM
Giving this a quick spin, and may I suggest a spot for Scryb Ranger. Just a piece of utility to spot duty on Delvers or Cliques, save a forest from LD.

MGB
11-01-2014, 10:05 AM
Trinisphere/Chalice + Deathrite Shaman?

Tomb/City manabases are clunky enough as it is and now this deck wants to splash two colors into it? Seems very awkward as one of the #1 problems these types of decks always have are losing to their manabases.

Gheizen64
11-01-2014, 12:32 PM
If anything the mana base and consistency is the best of any "stompy" i've ever tried. Only 4 sol lands + 1 mana cc accellerators make for mostly smooths developments. The problem i've found is that even against UR Delver decks, you usually fold to 3+ counterspell hands because your lifegain won't be relevant enough to save you then. Plus the burn on your mana producers sucks. It's still favored, but the fastest variants with mass burn are not as clearly favored compared to the slower TNN versions.

Lejay
11-01-2014, 01:24 PM
Giving this a quick spin, and may I suggest a spot for Scryb Ranger. Just a piece of utility to spot duty on Delvers or Cliques, save a forest from LD.
It has been a consideration. I think it does too little in this deck. Delver isn't really the big problem it used to be without decay. Land destruction isn't really a concern since you can often play on basics, and wasteland primarily targets sol lands (and dryad I admit). The untap effect isn't as strong as in GW utility decks with just fatties and 3drs/1dryad. I may be wrong in my evaluation of the card though as I didn't play with it, especially since DRS, so feel free to test one in a decay/kalonian/wasteland slot.


Trinisphere/Chalice + Deathrite Shaman?

Tomb/City manabases are clunky enough as it is and now this deck wants to splash two colors into it? Seems very awkward as one of the #1 problems these types of decks always have are losing to their manabases.
Like Gheizen said and like I said in the primer consistency is precisely the reason to play the green version because DRS and GSZ (for dryad or DRS through chalice) fix your mana. I put some amount of work in making this deck stable the most with choices like running only 4 sol lands and only playing 1 wasteland despite playing trinisphere. that's because I maxed on coloured mana for DRS and decay. With that configuration playing 2 colours is easy and you only side in a third colour against non wasteland decks.



If anything the mana base and consistency is the best of any "stompy" i've ever tried. Only 4 sol lands + 1 mana cc accellerators make for mostly smooths developments. The problem i've found is that even against UR Delver decks, you usually fold to 3+ counterspell hands because your lifegain won't be relevant enough to save you then. Plus the burn on your mana producers sucks. It's still favored, but the fastest variants with mass burn are not as clearly favored compared to the slower TNN versions.
Since you play easily around daze a fair amount of the time folding to 3 counterspells means folding to 3 forces or 2 forces and a daze with an early threat. I lost a game to turn 1 delver +3 forces the next three turns once. But I don't expect that to happen often. Also at that time I didn't have decay so these openings aren't auto-win anymore. Even something like spell pierce out of the board isn't difficult to play around and chalice on 1 nails it.
If I play against the version full of burn spells (I played against some online) then the match-up is very similar to straight burn, which means a complete bye. Identify it by the spells they play or how they play them and don't play around daze.
I haven't seen UR lists with TNN in a while. Everyone seems to play small variants of Bob Huang's deck.

Valtrix
11-01-2014, 01:29 PM
I'd be so tempted to play Rishadan Port over that wasteland. The synergy with Choke is hilarious. But, wasteland is wasteland, so it's hard to match.

Overall this deck is pretty cool. I was thinking about some stompy version with green due to spirit guide and zenith as accelerants. Thanks for putting this deck together, it looks pretty powerful in the new blue meta.

Lejay
11-01-2014, 01:33 PM
I like the rishadan idea but no chance I test it online as it's insanely expensive. Right now I'd say 60% chances wasteland is better and 40% chances rishadan is better.

Gheizen64
11-01-2014, 01:45 PM
@Lejay i'll try playing more aaround daze then.

Lejay
11-01-2014, 02:30 PM
Don't overdo it but yes it is important to do when you can afford it because you have key spells that are very strong.

Gheizen64
11-01-2014, 07:53 PM
This deck is amazing like crack. That Rolling Spoil is such insane tech and has won me so many unwinnable games already vs moms , TNNs , pyro tokens and Elves! I got out of a Karakas/Mangara lock with it, and killed all of D&T board in the meanwhile except for a Mirran crusader which i could race with the lifegain anyway. Another game i killed the only red source sneak attack had after he casted it (he casted it with petal , tomb, mountain, i stone rained next turn ftw).

Too bad there wasn't anything good for it in the new Commander. Well, Titania is nice as a 10 power for 5 mana, and give a 5/3 token every other turn pretty much, but being boltable and not going past TNN mean she isn't hot.

Also Golgari Charm needed some other good modal other than the -1-1. If it was destroy target artifact instead of enchantment, i'd play a couple in the sb for sure. The "regen all creature" seems so bad too.

Vicar in a tutu
11-01-2014, 09:12 PM
Very interesting deck. Can the new card from Commander 2014, Song of the Dryads (or similar name) be useful? It's an enchantment that makes any permanent into a forest.

Lejay
11-01-2014, 09:56 PM
Too bad there wasn't anything good for it in the new Commander.
I would consider the new 2/2 human cleric for 1w even if taht's a nonbo with GSZ since I am now splashing white anyway. If there is something to improve it's definitely against Natural order from elves and the card has wide applications.


Very interesting deck. Can the new card from Commander 2014, Song of the Dryads (or similar name) be useful? It's an enchantment that makes any permanent into a forest.
It's not good with trinisphere but I would consider it if I stayed mono green. Right now the black splash is very good and with very little costs so I am not changing it. It's too hard beating TNN.dek without black. The best Green/red option was Magnetic mountain and since it didn't exist online I had to play with an-zerrin ruins.
Let's keep it simple with the black splash.^^

pfiremc13
11-01-2014, 10:00 PM
I absolutely love this deck.

Don't you think courser of kruphix and maybe kitchen finks are better than running so many obstinate baloths? Baloths is a nice card but 4 seems excessive curve-filling or no. Courser and finks also are great blockers than gain life but they also give you card advantage. In many situations I think casting finks or courser will be better than casting baloth even with 4 mana.

Lejay
11-01-2014, 10:38 PM
From my experience it won't outclass baloth. Immediate massive life gain is very welcomed in the games and you have so many things to play in the case you didn't reach 4 mana. The body also will be better in almost all board situations. I played briefly one kitchen finks and I think it was better than my second courser, but only because the online meta is so agressive right now. I cut it for the 4th decay.
Several finks is something that is worth testing or having in mind when testing with obstinate, but I am quite convinced the baloths would win this battle even if they didn't have that anti liliana/SoFaF clause.
Finks could come back if kalonian underperforms now that I have 4 decay 2 rolling spoils, but at that point I think I'd put the 3rd thragtusk back or 2nd courser.

ahg113
11-02-2014, 01:48 AM
ahg113 taps Forest.
ahg113 taps Ancient Tomb.
ahg113 sets counter life to 13 (-1).
ahg113 sets counter life to 12 (-1).
ahg113 plays Choke from hand.
 mrcs84: k
ahg113 puts Choke into play from the stack.
ahg113 points from his Wasteland to mrcs84's Bayou.
ahg113 puts Wasteland from table into graveyard.
 mrcs84: you're seriously running choke maindeck?
 ahg113: yup
 mrcs84: the hell kind of deck are you playing?
 ahg113: there's a lot of blue
mrcs84 has left the game.


So I guess this means there's a chance. But this deck is weird. Trolling AWESOME U decks is fun, but not this much fun. Green Stompy < Other Stompy in the fun-house mirror.

dave8
11-02-2014, 10:19 AM
@lejay is that wasteland necessary?

Lejay
11-02-2014, 01:15 PM
@lejay is that wasteland necessary?
If that's a budget related question, no it's not. You can replace it with a forest or rishadan port or maybe even à rolling spoil, it won't change a lot deck's power.
If the question is about wasteland in general in the deck i'd like to play more but i don't want to cut any coloured mana and i have far enough lands with 23 and 7 accels.

wweenieking
11-02-2014, 10:21 PM
@lejay

I played with the deck a lot today and I felt the U/R matchup wasn't as much if a bye as I hoping for. Monastery and delver are fast. With a couple key forces and dazes they win and they'd sideboard in smash and vortex. I don't think the matchup is awful, but I wanted to crush it. Is there anything you can suggest that would help? I understand that it's the fastest of all the blue decks, but it's unfortunately the most popular. Thanks in advance for the input.

Lejay
11-03-2014, 03:46 AM
@lejay

I played with the deck a lot today and I felt the U/R matchup wasn't as much if a bye as I hoping for. Monastery and delver are fast. With a couple key forces and dazes they win and they'd sideboard in smash and vortex. I don't think the matchup is awful, but I wanted to crush it. Is there anything you can suggest that would help? I understand that it's the fastest of all the blue decks, but it's unfortunately the most popular. Thanks in advance for the input.

Well sorry to disappoint but you are talking about the new defining deck in legacy and it is very solid. Name me one deck that crushes it. Or even better name me one non combo deck that has a better match-up against it than my deck. The match-up isn't a cakewalk the majority of the time as mistakes are often punished by a game loss but it is a clear favourable match-up both preboard et post sideboard even when they play smash and vortex. If your environment is all about beating UR then feel free to adjust my choices, like an additionnal thragtusk instead of the kalonian or sideboard taiga+pyroclasms (like I did at the beginning).

Also in case you were doing something wrong here is how I would sideboard with the list I posted in the OP :
-3 ancient tomb
-3 sylvan library
-1 reclamation sage (used to keep it for vortex when I didn't have decays)
-1 Kalonian Hydra
+1 mountain
+1 savannah
+1 Scavenging ooze
+1 stingerfling spider
+1 maelstrom pulse
+1 toxic deluge
+2 massacre

I feel comfortable enough about the match-up to lose sideboard slots against it since I've cut the maelstrom pulse yesterday for a spike weaver. That makes me keep either kalonian in the dark or reclamation sage if I am sure they run several vortex.

Spike weaver is a plan I had in mind for a while. I faced a lot elves the last two days and it is confirmed as the one popular match-up I need to improve as I am still losing 3 matches out of 5. So I rethought about all the options I dismissed again. The only "new" idea I liked was a second dawnstrider sacrificing the pulse slot but being all in on dawnstrider isn't an excellent plan when you have mass removals and your opponent is playing decay. The problem spike weaver had when I considered it is that it is too slow for the average NO when I don't lock completely. So the answer is to run both dawnstrider and weaver, and use dawnstrider to save time when you need to before GSZing into Spike weaver (which teeg would prevent unfortunately). That is the best option I have, at least until Commander2014 is legal or until I cut ruinations for specific things like several constant mists, but I like it as it can't be hit neither by reclamation sage nor decay (nor massacre).
It's worth mentioning spike helps having no problem killing with kalonian hydra since you can fog any turn and kalonian doubles spike's counters as well.

Without pulse I lose a card to side in against control but miracles is perhaps my best match-up. Also since I only lose against them to timely small entreats before I lock them completely, I decided I will from now on side in the spider in the match-up (lulz but I am serious).

DouthwrightShaman
11-03-2014, 12:44 PM
While playing with this deck over the weekend I had a rules question come up that you may be able to answer for me. When you have Courser and Sylvan Library in play, do you reveal all 3 cards each turn off of Sylvan, as well as, the top card of your deck while deciding if you want to put cards back? For instance your top card is revealed to start the turn, you trigger the sylvan and draw the first, then reveal the top card draw it, and so on??? Very interesting deck list btw, thank you!

H
11-03-2014, 01:08 PM
While playing with this deck over the weekend I had a rules question come up that you may be able to answer for me. When you have Courser and Sylvan Library in play, do you reveal all 3 cards each turn off of Sylvan, as well as, the top card of your deck while deciding if you want to put cards back? For instance your top card is revealed to start the turn, you trigger the sylvan and draw the first, then reveal the top card draw it, and so on??? Very interesting deck list btw, thank you!

Yes, you reveal each as you draw it. If you put two back, this is one action, so you reveal only what is now on top.

Neffy
11-03-2014, 03:29 PM
Apart from G. Teeg how does this deck fight show and tell decks? And what about Reanimator? 3 DRS and an Ooze isnt much.

Should you board in 2-3 O-rings or that white black rider?

Lejay
11-03-2014, 06:38 PM
Omnitell is an excellent match-up as trinisphere is one of the worst card for their deck. Usually unless having a second one or particular circumstances you just keep it in hand to cut their show and tell plan. Then you can either lock them with choke or kill them faster than they can combo. Rolling spoil or wasteland on a sol land can ensure the lock. You also have a reclamation sage to tutor for with GSZ or put directly into play if you drew it. Post side the krosan grips help not only post trinisphere but also without it as it's excellent with all your life gain to prevent any omni->enter or omni emrakul. Since trigger is on the stack.
-I gain four ?
-Sure
-You passed priority to me, before gaining life I krosan omniscience
Thinking players will show and tell the singleton emrakul when they have it if they know the deck so I would advise siding in the spider.

I was considering Reanimator the toughest match-up before running deathrites. But unlike you I think they change a lot the match-up. You have good prison pieces against them, chalice in particular, but reanimator can be very fast. The first things I'd consider if I remove the ruinations+mountain (which could happen soon) are faerie macabre+wasteland or bramblecrush+wasteland.

With the deathrites in I was thinking my next worst popular match-up to be sneak show. However I won the two matches I had against it online (not popular there). Apparently the fact their deck are unstable makes your prison elements very good. Not just chalice at one but even choke and trinisphere + land destruction do work. Spider is also golden in hand of course.

Considering all these elements I am not interested into the cards you named to fight show and tell. Acidic slime may come back if I cut ruination though.

Gheizen64
11-03-2014, 09:52 PM
Tbh i don't like trinisphere. It's too slow to come down reliably fast against combo, and against aggro it come down when they usually have already a delver or a pyromancer down, at which point they can cast 1 spell per turn and be fine. Against miracle, it's mostly irrilevant unless combined with choke, and even then they just fetch 3 non-island lands and play from there.
I think if meta switch to faster combo (elves/reanimator/snt), sphere can be better as it come down reliably by T2. I'm trying it right now (and if u run it u proabbly should -1 Baloth +1 Courser).

Also, choke isn't our best card against miracle, Library is. Tbh i've found everyone countered my library and i never managed to stuck one down, but having one is always so good, so i upped the count to 4 main now. In general, i've found out it's the best card against so many decks. The card advantage it grant, especially if you get a Courser is insane. Vs fast aggro, it find you those removal you need to stay alive in the early game, and then stabilize the lategame by fetching you lifegaining bomb after bomb. Vs control , stucking one early means you can get +3 or +4 CA in 2 turns since you don't care at all about ur life against most of them. That's usually game.

I also found myself tutoring Courser pretty often because of the virtual card advantage it provide whenever i'm board neutral, so i've upped the count by 1. Double courser, while rare, also gain you 3 life per fetch.

I don't run ruinations in side, i'm trying to keep the deck BG. Running 1 kitchen for burn and 1 edict as a secondary anti-TNN/Prog/ and general anti-aggro card in their place, and i think 1 more Toxic Deluge.

As for the mana base, i tried many variations but i still keep coming back to the original one. The balance of colorless, 2mana lands and colored lands is just perfect.

SevenInTheQueue
11-03-2014, 10:19 PM
I like the idea behind this list, but I have two main concerns.

1. Why play this over a red variation? Blood Moon/Magus seems more flexible, while still quite punishing to most blue lists.

2. Not convinced with Rolling Spoil. Seems incredibly clunky.

sdematt
11-04-2014, 12:27 AM
Did someone say 3 Sylvan Library?

-Matt

Lejay
11-04-2014, 07:45 AM
Tbh i don't like trinisphere. It's too slow to come down reliably fast against combo, and against aggro it come down when they usually have already a delver or a pyromancer down, at which point they can cast 1 spell per turn and be fine. Against miracle, it's mostly irrilevant unless combined with choke, and even then they just fetch 3 non-island lands and play from there.
I think if meta switch to faster combo (elves/reanimator/snt), sphere can be better as it come down reliably by T2. I'm trying it right now (and if u run it u proabbly should -1 Baloth +1 Courser).

Also, choke isn't our best card against miracle, Library is. Tbh i've found everyone countered my library and i never managed to stuck one down, but having one is always so good, so i upped the count to 4 main now. In general, i've found out it's the best card against so many decks. The card advantage it grant, especially if you get a Courser is insane. Vs fast aggro, it find you those removal you need to stay alive in the early game, and then stabilize the lategame by fetching you lifegaining bomb after bomb. Vs control , stucking one early means you can get +3 or +4 CA in 2 turns since you don't care at all about ur life against most of them. That's usually game.

I also found myself tutoring Courser pretty often because of the virtual card advantage it provide whenever i'm board neutral, so i've upped the count by 1. Double courser, while rare, also gain you 3 life per fetch.

I don't run ruinations in side, i'm trying to keep the deck BG. Running 1 kitchen for burn and 1 edict as a secondary anti-TNN/Prog/ and general anti-aggro card in their place, and i think 1 more Toxic Deluge.

As for the mana base, i tried many variations but i still keep coming back to the original one. The balance of colorless, 2mana lands and colored lands is just perfect.
I strongly disagree on trinisphere versus sphere. Trini is at the same much more impactful and far less a problem to cast your expensive spells. Hopefully your testing will show you this pretty fast.
It can be slow versus storm but not that much with 7 accels and 4 sol lands. Versus omnitell its cost is often irrelevant as you don't expose it to force of will.
Running more coursers and libraries is a thing I did and liked as I said and they both run well together. But I am more interested in hearing what you cut and why. The only slot I can see going out is the hydra and it breaks my heart.
I am currently playing without ruinations to see how it goes. Using the four slots for 2xKarakas and 2x aven mindcensor gives more game versus reanimator, sneak, elves and combo while providing the additionnal lands to replace tombs. I may cut dawnstrider for another censor if they work well but mindcensor could also become containment priest despite the drawback on GSZ. Will talk about the results.

If someone is willing to test them I wonder how good would dust bowl and tower of the magistrate would be as sb lands that can do other things. I don't like dropping the cloudpost match-up by cutting ruinations so dust bowl might be the choice. Tower is a nice answer to the popular germ token and just saving time is all you need as you are generally the control deck versus blue control decks.


I like the idea behind this list, but I have two main concerns.

1. Why play this over a red variation? Blood Moon/Magus seems more flexible, while still quite punishing to most blue lists.

2. Not convinced with Rolling Spoil. Seems incredibly clunky.

1. I have been very explicite in the primer about why green stompy is interesting. Running GSZ and sylvan library gives you far more consistency than other colours. If I take the time to write the primer I at least ask you to read it before posting.

2. This is a very unsurprising judgment you would expect from anyone. Anyone who hasn't play with the deck. Versatility is key.

MD.Ghost
11-04-2014, 08:11 AM
@Lejay: Funny deck idea! I like the "hate blue" concept behind it :wink:

Some thoughts about it:

Hydra can be the new Titania, Protector of Argoth (this deck has enough fetches and it also gain some stuff back against enemy Wastelands if needed and Karakas is also an option for "gg").


Versatility is key.

More Cards to consider:
Baloth Playset VS 1off Reaper of the Wilds or even Thrun which are more active against TNN, Batterskull, Gofy (i like the Baloths and the Lifegain, but i feel a Playset is too clunky and Zenith opens up more flexible solutions), White also gives access to Siege Rhino (sure without Zenith it needs 3 colors, but it is way better than a Baloth).

With 4 Mana in mind, Winconditions can also be Planeswalkers:
Garruk Relentless (Shots all the small creatures down, if something managed to sneak through Chalice/Sphere, and generate endless tokens, also easy to cast!)

Lejay
11-04-2014, 09:09 AM
About Titania the fact it can be hit by karakas is a problem I was happy to avoid. It's also vulnerable to bolt. It's a to be tested card though I agree because you can gain value out of it even facing immediate removal and because we run chalice.

I tried briefly siege rhino and the mana cost was a real pain. You want to be able to function on basics in this deck and when you can't, sol lands aren't good. I liked the idea of having reach in the deck and the 4/5 trample body, but it's not enough because I am not ready to change the manabase (savannah instead of a fetch lost me the very first game with it).
Thrun won me a game once versus dredge and their 17/17 troll. But that was a weird game and I hated the thrun the rest of the time. You already have defense against removal and counters.
Reaper is something I tried x4 at the beginning in the baloths slot. Didn't hate it as 4/5 is very nice versus batterskull or even goyf. I didn't like the mana you have to keep open and missed life gain a lot, but there are enough incentives to test it again as a fetchable singleton.

Relentless is the planeswalker I am the most likely to play with domri rade (though now the red splash is a bit far from the deck). But my match-up against control being very good and those being too slow to answer efficiently delver or sfm make me skip planeswalkers entirely.

TopWizard
11-04-2014, 01:02 PM
How do you feel about Night of Souls' Betrayal over Rolling Spoil?

apple713
11-04-2014, 02:24 PM
How do you feel about Night of Souls' Betrayal over Rolling Spoil?

double black sucks, and it affects your creatures as well bringing them into bolt range.

i agree that its a great card and really does work on a significant portion of the meta.

elves, delver, pyromancer, thalia, flickerwisp, mindscensor, mom, vendillion, venser, TNN...

what it doesn't get

DRS, SFM, tarmogoyf, shardless agent, merfolk,

With that in mind it still has great application but, its legendary so you cannot have 2 in play and in multiples you end up with wasted cards. If there was a way to get 2 in play or an effect you could use with night of souls betrayal to give an additional -1/-1 that might be worth considering.

zulander
11-04-2014, 02:53 PM
Brooooo Lifeblood Hydra is SO SICK
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=1054515

apple713
11-04-2014, 02:53 PM
Brooooo Lifeblood Hydra is SO SICK
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=1054515

nonbo with GSZ tho...

zulander
11-04-2014, 03:37 PM
nonbo with GSZ tho...

The list already runs a Hydra, I think this one is better. Or maybe even Genesis Hydra? Another card advantage creature is good.

Matsaya
11-04-2014, 03:48 PM
The list already runs a Hydra, I think this one is better. Or maybe even Genesis Hydra? Another card advantage creature is good.

Kalonian Hydra works with green sun zenith ...

MGB
11-04-2014, 04:09 PM
@lejay

I played with the deck a lot today and I felt the U/R matchup wasn't as much if a bye as I hoping for. Monastery and delver are fast. With a couple key forces and dazes they win and they'd sideboard in smash and vortex. I don't think the matchup is awful, but I wanted to crush it. Is there anything you can suggest that would help? I understand that it's the fastest of all the blue decks, but it's unfortunately the most popular. Thanks in advance for the input.

If you just want to smash Delver decks, play something mono black with a lot of edict effects and stuff like Funeral Charm and/or Darkblast. Additionally, play Gatekeeper of Malakir in that deck.

SevenInTheQueue
11-04-2014, 04:15 PM
1. I have been very explicite in the primer about why green stompy is interesting. Running GSZ and sylvan library gives you far more consistency than other colours. If I take the time to write the primer I at least ask you to read it before posting.

2. This is a very unsurprising judgment you would expect from anyone. Anyone who hasn't play with the deck. Versatility is key.


I read through the primer before making the post, and it does little convincing for this as a competitive parallel to a Moon based strategy. This archetype is certainly more "interesting" than say a Werewolf/Dragon/Moggcatcher stompy shell, but I'm a bit suspect on the argument for consistency. While I can see the appeal of this list (if I didn't, I wouldn't bother) in a heavy-blue meta, Moons (and red in general) still sees more punishing to heavy blue. On paper, the strengths of this particular build do not seem to outweigh the weaknesses introduces.

All that said, I'll be sleeving this up for a weekly soon, and will be sure to post results. While not concrete, here is the 75 I would enter with.


4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Obstinate Baloth
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Spike Weaver
1x Thragtusk
1x Kalonian Hydra

4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library

4x Choke
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Rolling Spoil

3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Wasteland
3x Bayou
5x Forest
1x Swamp

Sideboard:

1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stingerfling Spider
2x Karakas
2x Savannah
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Krosan Grip
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Massacre
1x Toxic Deluge


Not many (if any) 12-Post players around, but people love registering their Sneak & Show or Reanimator lists. This configuration gives a relatively smooth transition.

apple713
11-04-2014, 11:32 PM
recycle

does this have a home in here?


Also, I feel like this deck is lacking late game... everything except hydra dies to a batter skull...i want to say primeval titan, but that doesn't really help. Titania might be ok but I'm really struggling to find a better green creature... maybe Polukranos, World Eater

Lejay
11-05-2014, 10:12 AM
How do you feel about Night of Souls' Betrayal over Rolling Spoil?
I played NoSB briefly in the sideboard and I do think it's good. But it's not the fastest effect and double black doesn't make it easy to cast. I would only consider it a sideboard card though. Imo Rolling spoil is the -1/-1 effect that is worth the main deck, even more than toxic deluge that I ran main deck x2 in shardless because even against non creature decks it's still quite useful to cut non blue lands (or even blue ones if needed).
I may change my mind one day and consider rolling spoil a very good sb card for TNN control decks and miracles but at the moment I think it's more than that.


Kalonian Hydra works with green sun zenith ...
The only X hydra I'd consider is mistcutter hydra. Because it's very good versus control and planeswalkers and it's cheap so you can side it in against dredge to get rid of their bridges with GSZ.
I do not run it because control match-ups are already very good.


Decklist
I don't like much putting the spike weaver main deck because that saved sideboard slot isn't important for me as I wouldn't be sure about what to put in it. What I am sure however is I wouldn't run a second savannah. Why did you put it ? Teeg comes in against non wasteland decks.
However running two spike weaver + two kalonian main deck as part of a strategy of dominating combat steps is something to be tested. I guess if someone wants to try it he can remove rolling spoil from the main as TNN won't be a problem with this nice combo.


recycle

does this have a home in here?


Also, I feel like this deck is lacking late game... everything except hydra dies to a batter skull...i want to say primeval titan, but that doesn't really help. Titania might be ok but I'm really struggling to find a better green creature... maybe Polukranos, World Eater
Recycle : no, and I see no reason for it to be better in this deck than anywhere else. I don't think we can run something more expensive than kalonian hydra.
Our late game should be either sylvan library or making the opponent draw dead cards / stop moving.
If you want to handle batterskul this is reasonable though. Thrun is ok but I didn't like it enough in testing. The one of Reaper of the Wilds however has more potential. Siege rhino really doesn't fit with the mana base as you want to be able to function with basics and generally fetch them if you can.



About my list I replaced aven mindcensor with faerie macabre. Having another weapon against storm was as nice as expected, but censor doesn't change the most frequent games you lose which are turn 1 discard+turn 2 combo or turn 1 combo. They usually use PiF to avoid gambling so FM would have done the job and it can't be hit by duress if they play it. I didn't face elves with censor but I already didn't like the fact it's another thing that dies to your mass removals and I am still confident in the weaver/dawnstrider plan even if I still didn't see it in action versus elves.
2 karakas 2 FM 3 DRS 1 ooze 4 GSZ, 4 cotv means you are pretty well prepared for reanimator, which with regular dredge is coming back in the new metagame sculpted by UR. That's far more important than cloudpost in my opinion so I am happy with all these changes.
Since handling delver is a big part of the UR match-up I wonder if siding in FM against them is worth it. I'll try them post sb instead of rolling spoils.
About the main deck I feel I open too many 1 land hands online. I don't know if the unperfect human shuffling prevents people testing from that, but I had to accept to cut second thragtusk for a second wasteland. I am glad it's back though, especially with DRS.

MGB
11-05-2014, 10:29 AM
I think I would play more Thragtusks. The card just seems strictly better than Hydra and alot of other stuff, and is very powerful vs. the current crop of tier decks.

Lejay
11-05-2014, 10:36 AM
I do not exclude the idea of cutting completely Kalonian and keeping two thragtusks. But I have things to test with kalonian, and since the miracles match-up is so good and tusk is slow for UR, I am ok with testing this configuration.

Neffy
11-05-2014, 05:29 PM
Lejay do you rely on drawing the karakasses for the combo matchups or am I missing some sneaky way of fetching way?
We dont (and can't) use crop rotation which would be nice with Titania I guess, but I guess thats why you run 2 karakas. with a sylvan or three you might increase the chances of seeing one i guess.

rancOr_
11-05-2014, 07:08 PM
Awesome deck concept Lejay!

Been thinking about it some and I think just a white splash for the SB might be better(cutting mountain/ruination) since u can play like 3 Containment Priest then.
I know it works against gsz, but I still think its more then worth it to increase ur chances against Reanimator/Sneak Attack/Elves/Dredge which are harder MU's.

Have u thought about Tarmogoyf as a one off in this deck?

Greetings-

Qweerios
11-05-2014, 07:52 PM
So I tested the list posted in the OP and I came to the following conclusions:

The deck needs 4 Wastelands. Trinisphere is infinitely better when you can destroy lands for free.

Crucible is very good because it enables Wastelocks, shuffles on demand for Library, and provides steady land drops for scaling GSZs.

Siege Rhino is leaps and bounds better than Baloth in this deck. Trample is extreme relevant in this kind of deck and trading 1 life for a bolt to the face is amazing. Personally I don't feel like splashing white is very difficult if you choose to take the Wasteland-less road.

Overall Baloths feel like crutches. Aside from the popularity of burn, Baloth is weak overall and we don't always have to make up for the life we lose to tomb and library. I don't think 4 copies is mandatory.

Spoils is very good in this deck and the -1/-1 effect is often required to shore up our worst matchups. I am surprised it isn't played at the full playset. Along with Wasteland, I feel like those are the cards that keep the coffin shut with an active Trini or Choke.

I believe the new Creeperhulk will be a strict upgrade to Hydra.

Golgari4Life
11-05-2014, 08:30 PM
How does this deck matchup against Delver, Combo decks and the other big linchpins like Miracles?

If I saw evidence on MTGO that this deck is solid I'd take it with me to the GP in New Jersey.

apple713
11-05-2014, 08:57 PM
So I tested the list posted in the OP and I came to the following conclusions:

The deck needs 4 Wastelands. Trinisphere is infinitely better when you can destroy lands for free.

Crucible is very good because it enables Wastelocks, shuffles on demand for Library, and provides steady land drops for scaling GSZs.

Siege Rhino is leaps and bounds better than Baloth in this deck. Trample is extreme relevant in this kind of deck and trading 1 life for a bolt to the face is amazing. Personally I don't feel like splashing white is very difficult if you choose to take the Wasteland-less road.

Overall Baloths feel like crutches. Aside from the popularity of burn, Baloth is weak overall and we don't always have to make up for the life we lose to tomb and library. I don't think 4 copies is mandatory.

Spoils is very good in this deck and the -1/-1 effect is often required to shore up our worst matchups. I am surprised it isn't played at the full playset. Along with Wasteland, I feel like those are the cards that keep the coffin shut with an active Trini or Choke.

I believe the new Creeperhulk will be a strict upgrade to Hydra.

the deck probably doesn't want to play wasteland control. trini and chalice are included to defend against combo

siege rhino is good, at least 1 should be required, it beats batterskull and provides a huge swing in life. Balloths are fine but underwhelming.

I do actually like the land destruction plan aside from wasteland. crucible in multiples is terrible, and then you weaken the manabase with wastelands...



Silklash Spider may be nice against fliers. it blocks substantial amounts of dmg, and can pretty much destroy anything in the air. can't be bolted either, even after blocking most 3/x fliers.

Kodama of the North Tree maybe his toughness is too low? otherwise he seems nice.

Xenagos, God of Revels could have nice interaction. haste to all your creatures, and double power, and fetch able with GSZ.

Sages of the Anima maybe the deck doesn't run enough creatures for this to be beneficial but it can be GSZ'd and is a good 5cmc outside bolt range

dte
11-06-2014, 07:31 AM
Sages of the Anima maybe the deck doesn't run enough creatures for this to be beneficial but it can be GSZ'd and is a good 5cmc outside bolt range

The interaction with Sylvan library looks good, taking all the creatures cards among the first nine cards of your deck each turn (15 if you have 2 libraries), but with the deck running only 13-14 creatures it may be not enough.

Sad they didn't print Abundance with legs to be tutored for.

Blastoderm
11-06-2014, 08:18 AM
What about Natural Order?

dave8
11-06-2014, 09:52 AM
@Leyaj -> what is your current list?

Lejay
11-07-2014, 05:27 AM
Lejay do you rely on drawing the karakasses for the combo matchups or am I missing some sneaky way of fetching way?
We dont (and can't) use crop rotation which would be nice with Titania I guess, but I guess thats why you run 2 karakas. with a sylvan or three you might increase the chances of seeing one i guess.
No fetching.


Awesome deck concept Lejay!

Been thinking about it some and I think just a white splash for the SB might be better(cutting mountain/ruination) since u can play like 3 Containment Priest then.
I know it works against gsz, but I still think its more then worth it to increase ur chances against Reanimator/Sneak Attack/Elves/Dredge which are harder MU's.

Have u thought about Tarmogoyf as a one off in this deck?

Greetings-
I said I'd like to test priest but I still like the spike weaver plan much better. Sadly I didn't face elves lately. I had to cut dawnstrider, if spike works well enough alone and isn't too slow without dawnstrider he will for sure stick. Unless I cut kalonian of course.
Against reanimator I think priest is too slow and you have chalice/trini coming at the same point so hard to remove FM. Sneak is a good enough and not quite played match-up I'd say. But if I face it more and start losing I promise I'll reconsider that.
I considered Tarmogoyf as a GSZ option but you can probably do better with this mana base. If you want a two mana creature on GSZ it's for the early game and it may not be big enough to matter. Please test and tell me about it.

So I tested the list posted in the OP and I came to the following conclusions:

The deck needs 4 Wastelands. Trinisphere is infinitely better when you can destroy lands for free.

Crucible is very good because it enables Wastelocks, shuffles on demand for Library, and provides steady land drops for scaling GSZs.

Siege Rhino is leaps and bounds better than Baloth in this deck. Trample is extreme relevant in this kind of deck and trading 1 life for a bolt to the face is amazing. Personally I don't feel like splashing white is very difficult if you choose to take the Wasteland-less road.

Overall Baloths feel like crutches. Aside from the popularity of burn, Baloth is weak overall and we don't always have to make up for the life we lose to tomb and library. I don't think 4 copies is mandatory.

Spoils is very good in this deck and the -1/-1 effect is often required to shore up our worst matchups. I am surprised it isn't played at the full playset. Along with Wasteland, I feel like those are the cards that keep the coffin shut with an active Trini or Choke.

I believe the new Creeperhulk will be a strict upgrade to Hydra.
Regarding wasteland I already said I would be interested in upping the numbers. I'd really like to know what you would cut because if I were to comment my own list I would have lots of good suggestions like that. You really need enough colored mana for turn 1 GSZ/DRS and decay/baloths. I tried 4 wastelands yesterday forcing them by cutting coloured mana and it didn't go well. Maybe 3 are ok but I'll stay on 2 next time at least, and I won't be cutting rolling spoils for wastelands. You have enough lands already and want to make land drops (and -1/-1 is really good).
If you start running crucible you will cut creatures and probably end up building white stacks.
I did test rhino and I will say the same thing again. You are happy to fetch basics and drawing rhino will be a problem in this case. When you don't function on basics ancient tomb will also be bad.
Regarding 4 spoils I considered the option of cutting creatures. Maybe this deck will end up doing that when mature but I also see some issues having no board to block and running removals. You will also lose the versatility of GSZ and libraries won't be as good, if not cut.

How does this deck matchup against Delver, Combo decks and the other big linchpins like Miracles?

If I saw evidence on MTGO that this deck is solid I'd take it with me to the GP in New Jersey.
The reason I like the deck is I like all these match-ups. I now win against all classic SFM decks with my main and sideboard choices, Miracles is a very good match-up. UR and combo good. BUG delver is not as favourable but I'd say about 50/50. But maybe I have the usual syndrom of the guy who thinks he only has good match-ups with his new deck, or maybe the deck won't be favoured anymore when people know about it. My results have dropped a little online but it's probably more because I have been trying different suboptimal things.

the deck probably doesn't want to play wasteland control. trini and chalice are included to defend against combo

siege rhino is good, at least 1 should be required, it beats batterskull and provides a huge swing in life. Balloths are fine but underwhelming.

I do actually like the land destruction plan aside from wasteland. crucible in multiples is terrible, and then you weaken the manabase with wastelands...



Silklash Spider may be nice against fliers. it blocks substantial amounts of dmg, and can pretty much destroy anything in the air. can't be bolted either, even after blocking most 3/x fliers.

Kodama of the North Tree maybe his toughness is too low? otherwise he seems nice.

Xenagos, God of Revels could have nice interaction. haste to all your creatures, and double power, and fetch able with GSZ.

Sages of the Anima maybe the deck doesn't run enough creatures for this to be beneficial but it can be GSZ'd and is a good 5cmc outside bolt range
Siege rhino I have already answered in this same post. I could play the one reaper of the wilds to fetch a batterskul blocker, and I like the scry effect when facing a board of small creatures. After testing it I still play 4 baloths though.
When tested silklash spider had the big problem of being a 5 mana non threat. Stingerfling does it better for delver imo.
I didn't find kodama exciting when saw it. Feel free to test.
Green gods are quite weak, I guess wotc anticipated the GSZ interaction. I still think nylea was the best green god, but became uncessary with kalonian. If the opponent has no blocks you'll probably win without doubling powers of your beasts/hydras so I'd give priority on trample.
Regarding sages splashing blue is a real issue. It's tutorable but for cards interacting nicely with sylvan library the best I found was abundance which is probably overkill for control match-ups. So I have a pretty simple rule for sylvan combos : not playing something that is inferior to abundance.


What about Natural Order?
The deck ran NO early. Please read the section on kalonian hydra.


@Leyaj -> what is your current list?
Testing lots of different things so no set in stone list. Here is what I'll run in my next daily though :
1 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Swamp
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
6 [UNH] Forest (try 5 forest 1 snow-covered forest)
1 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
1 [] Reclamation Sage
1 [M13] Thragtusk
2 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
1 [CMD] Golgari Signet
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [8E] Choke
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [R] Savannah
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [JOU] Bassara Tower Archer
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [C13] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge

I tried a build with more sol lands and wastelands and 4 signets and didn't like it much. However I thought it would be a nice effect as a 1 or 2 of in my DRS list. As a singleton it gives you options when in hand which is nice and can lead to very nice turns and color fixing (often acts like a hasted DRS, but without lightning greaves). That's precisely what it did when I played with it in this list. I think it will stay but only have a few matches with it. 3rd DRS is never tutored for so keeping 2 seems fine.
I think 7 fetches is enough with just 2 DRS and no ruinations sideboard. It's possible we can fit in 3rd wasteland instead but I am still worried with coloured mana and even more now that I have Bassara Tower Archer. Try testing with a different forest (snow-covered or foil) to see what it would have been with wasteland if you want.
Bassara Tower Archer is the early fetchable answer to delver. It's specific but probably worth it in the current metagame. I have cut second karakas for it. With just 1 Karakas and now that the deck has 2 DRS, Faerie macabre is probably even less cuttable.
I've put back giant solifuge because without pulse and less creatures I feel I need this effect again againt control. It's a tutorable answer to planeswalkers. I cut the dawnstrider for it though and I didn't like that. We'll see if spike weaver can be fast enough on its own versus elves (I have doubts for infect).
I may test putting 2nd thragtusk back as the 61st card. You are a GSZ deck after all. Maybe shaving a 5 mana slot for a wasteland was too much so that would equilibriate the lands to spells ratio.

Lejay
11-07-2014, 08:09 AM
I believe the new Creeperhulk will be a strict upgrade to Hydra.
Forgot to answer that. I don't see how it can be a *strict* upgrade as Hydra does more alone, kills way faster and makes spike weaver awesome versus elves and some combat phase based decks. But I agree it is something to test and may become the finisher the deck wants. Once again don't hesitate testing things because I won't have the time to test them all in one week.

DouthwrightShaman
11-07-2014, 08:25 AM
I considered Tarmogoyf as a GSZ option but you can probably do better with this mana base. If you want a two mana creature on GSZ it's for the early game and it may not be big enough to matter. Please test and tell me about it.

What are your thoughts on wall of roots for a two mana creature for GSZ? I recently tested your decklist out at a local weekly and unfortunately was down a trinisphere, so I tried out wall of roots as a hedge against aggressive strategies, which also ramps you nicely. The tournament had a small turnout, so I did not get enough testing to see if I liked it (beat miracles and mud, ID last round). I am not entirely sure what I would cut for it as I would have run the fourth trinisphere had it been available. But thoughts anyways?

Lejay
11-07-2014, 09:12 AM
What are your thoughts on wall of roots for a two mana creature for GSZ? I recently tested your decklist out at a local weekly and unfortunately was down a trinisphere, so I tried out wall of roots as a hedge against aggressive strategies, which also ramps you nicely. The tournament had a small turnout, so I did not get enough testing to see if I liked it (beat miracles and mud, ID last round). I am not entirely sure what I would cut for it as I would have run the fourth trinisphere had it been available. But thoughts anyways?

I played it briefly and it got cut because playing 4 decays cut a lot of stuff. Also since drs, tutoring one drs does the accel for cheap part which is the most important. Blocking and resisting Bolt are nice but it doesn't block most goyfs, delvers, skull most of the time, and doesn't kill small creatures swarming.

Zupponn
11-07-2014, 11:11 AM
I'm glad you guys have been liking Stingerfling Spider. The card is nuts against Delvers.

apple713
11-07-2014, 11:54 AM
Siege rhino I have already answered in this same post. I could play the one reaper of the wilds to fetch a batterskul blocker, and I like the scry effect when facing a board of small creatures. After testing it I still play 4 baloths though.
When tested silklash spider had the big problem of being a 5 mana non threat. Stingerfling does it better for delver imo.
I didn't find kodama exciting when saw it. Feel free to test.
Green gods are quite weak, I guess wotc anticipated the GSZ interaction. I still think nylea was the best green god, but became uncessary with kalonian. If the opponent has no blocks you'll probably win without doubling powers of your beasts/hydras so I'd give priority on trample.
Regarding sages splashing blue is a real issue. It's tutorable but for cards interacting nicely with sylvan library the best I found was abundance which is probably overkill for control match-ups. So I have a pretty simple rule for sylvan combos : not playing something that is inferior to abundance.


the only issue i have with abundance is that its not tutor able and becomes too redundant with library. but i can see how its not optimal.

Qweerios
11-07-2014, 12:07 PM
This is the list I ended up playing after testing.


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Kalonian Hydra

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Rolling Spoil
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Choke
3 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp


Most of my testing was against Elves, DnT, UR Delver, and SnT. This is probably one of the reasons I ended up going to 4 Spoils. The card is OK when choke is relevant but it is extremely potent when Choke is irrelevant. For these reasons I think both cards go hand in hand. My sideboard didn't quite contain 15 cards but I did have 2 Massacre and 2 Toxic Deluge postboard making the Elves and DnT matchups quite good (in fact I never lost to Elves in 3 best of 3s). It is interesting to note that I played a Savannah in my SB and sported a SB Teeg as well as a few copies of Rest in Peace as an additional lock piece against decks playing DRS and Goyfs.

I went down to 1 DRS because I hate drawing it and it is rarely a GSZ target. Dryad is my T1 accel of choice. DRS is also a sad threat when a lock is in place, I don't see myself consistently activating it every turn let along two. I wouldn't be against a 2nd copy but playing more than that is probably a mistake. Overall I think Wasteland is a better card to have.

Kalonian is the best finisher so far. He is clean and swift. I cannot say as much for Thragtusk as I haven't gotten him to die yet. I find the Baloths good enough in most circumstances and I prefer drawing Baloth to Thragtusk. Miracles aside, I don't find Thragtusk all that impressive.

Kruphix is absolutely amazing, he is my #1 GSZ target on an empty or stalled board. The synergy with Library is insane for a non-blue deck. In all my years of Legacy, Kruphix as a GSZ target is one of those underrated cards on par with Sylvan Library. I only play one copy because it has never been removed so far. Otherwise I would definitely pack a second, perhaps even over the third Library as I really dislike drawing two copies.

Another thing I noticed while playing the deck was that I had no good GSZ targets at CMC 2. Under an active Trinisphere this has been a constant disapointment. I think 1 or 2 Goyfs would be beneficial. Maybe even an Ooze.

Going forward I would like to test a white splash in the main. I don't think basic lands are too important because they are only good against Blood Moon so we can easily cut back to 1 Forest and 1 Swamp and still have plenty of outs to Blood Moon. I don't find Wasteland menacing when our opponents need 3 mana to cast their spells. I would really love to adopt Rhino > Baloth because it is extremely important for us to capitalize on every extra turn we are given by Trinisphere and Chalice. Trample, Batterskull-proof, and reach are all things I am looking for at the top of my curve along with life gain. Also, I don't think I would ever want to grab a Thragtusk or Hydra ever again if I had access to 4 Rhinos. I think Sigarda is also a good consideration as it is nearly impossible to answer by many Legacy decks.

Lejay
11-07-2014, 12:43 PM
I don't think you can keep tombs with 3 colours and siege rhino as your main creature, and tomb is quite necessary for prison elements.
I wanted to try a full denial list at some point so I'll test your list when I can. I feel the mana base is dangerous but other than that it's what I would have done (pretty obvious build though). I won't be able to play until sunday so feel free to update it by then.

MGB
11-07-2014, 12:56 PM
I don't think you can keep tombs with 3 colours and siege rhino as your main creature, and tomb is quite necessary for prison elements.
I wanted to try a full denial list at some point so I'll test your list when I can. I feel the mana base is dangerous but other than that it's what I would have done (pretty obvious build though). I won't be able to play until sunday so feel free to update it by then.

Why not just drop Tombs altogether, then play more 1 mana guys like maybe Noble Heirarch, and play 3 colors?

Lejay
11-07-2014, 01:10 PM
So dropping chalices also ? Noble hierarch also dies to rolling spoil.

apple713
11-07-2014, 01:27 PM
1. Kalonian is the best finisher so far. He is clean and swift. I cannot say as much for Thragtusk as I haven't gotten him to die yet. I find the Baloths good enough in most circumstances and I prefer drawing Baloth to Thragtusk. Miracles aside, I don't find Thragtusk all that impressive.

2. Kruphix is absolutely amazing, he is my #1 GSZ target on an empty or stalled board. The synergy with Library is insane for a non-blue deck. In all my years of Legacy, Kruphix as a GSZ target is one of those underrated cards on par with Sylvan Library. I only play one copy because it has never been removed so far. Otherwise I would definitely pack a second, perhaps even over the third Library as I really dislike drawing two copies.

3. Another thing I noticed while playing the deck was that I had no good GSZ targets at CMC 2. Under an active Trinisphere this has been a constant disapointment. I think 1 or 2 Goyfs would be beneficial. Maybe even an Ooze.



1. ehh, the card is clunky but everyone is at a loss for a better card as a finisher.

2. kruphix is absolutely the bomb. hidden gem and completely underrated.

3. if you go with white you can play

fleecemane lion
otherwise

Sylvan Caryatid
wall of roots
wall of blossoms


roots blocks batterskull
blossoms replaces itself
and fleece mane is great if you are hitting 5 mana.

MGB
11-07-2014, 01:27 PM
Also, as Anti-Delver tech - have you considered Skylasher in some quantity?

Could be a solid GSZ target for 2 mana, as Delver opponents will probably let GSZ resolve for G2 if they don't know what you have in your deck.

Lejay
11-07-2014, 01:53 PM
Skylasher was in multiples in sb at the beginning. Now with decay that would be too many cards for delver, and if I wanted to go that way I may prefer playing leafcrown dryad to help your other beaters beat goyfs, avoid mass removal, or for "haste" purposes.
Bassara Tower Archer can't be bolted or stped so it's like a removal with GSZ to save life points in the early game, stingerfling answers very well delver or a board of delvers in the late game and has other uses, decay gives quantity of answers that are versatile. I don't think there is more to look at regarding the delver issue.

EDIT : I used to have a bow of nylea before running 4 decays. It was a good card that does more than killing delvers.

Neffy
11-07-2014, 03:06 PM
Why not just drop Tombs altogether, then play more 1 mana guys like maybe Noble Heirarch, and play 3 colors?

That will just increase the chance of dead draws on a resolved sphere.

Qweerios
11-07-2014, 03:18 PM
Tombs are essential at enabling T1 Chalice, T2 Trini/Choke, and fueling GSZ.

I just played a bunch of games on cockatrice with a version of the deck playing 4 Rhinos instead of Baloth. The results were phenomenal. I played some grindy games against a Stoneblade deck with TNN and TC. BSkull and TNN were so underwhelming against Rhino, and they just kept piling on and pressuring until my opponent had enough. They were also crucial against a burn opponent because casting the first Rhino and GSZing for the second gave a big enough life swing to turn the game in my favor and kill my opponent before he killed me.

Now that I have played the 3 colored list and didn't feel any mana problems, I have been thinking about adding Vindicate to the mix instead of Rolling Spoil. In practice I care more about Batterskull than Nemesis, especially now that I have Rhinos instead of Baloths. Turning Spoils into additional Batterskull answers and general removal sounds great.

MGB
11-07-2014, 03:24 PM
Tombs are essential at enabling T1 Chalice, T2 Trini/Choke, and fueling GSZ.

I just played a bunch of games on cockatrice with a version of the deck playing 4 Rhinos instead of Baloth. The results were phenomenal. I played some grindy games against a Stoneblade deck with TNN and TC. BSkull and TNN were so underwhelming against Rhino, and they just kept piling on and pressuring until my opponent had enough. They were also crucial against a burn opponent because casting the first Rhino and GSZing for the second gave a big enough life swing to turn the game in my favor and kill my opponent before he killed me.


The Rhino's ETB ability vs. the Baloth's ETB ability is a huge difference, and it's subtle. Often times the life gain is nice but the reach you get from the drain life is crucial to finishing out games. And of course, the Trample just gives you that much more reach because he can't be chump blocked effectively.

The discard hosing aspect of Baloth is nice vs. Liliana but that's really only one deck in the format that this is relevant against, and in every other way the Rhino is basically superior.



Now that I have played the 3 colored list and didn't feel any mana problems, I have been thinking about adding Vindicate to the mix instead of Rolling Spoil. In practice I care more about Batterskull than Nemesis, especially now that I have Rhinos instead of Baloths. Turning Spoils into additional Batterskull answers and general removal sounds great.

Vindicate is amazingly versatile. The Land Destruction aspect can be especially relevant in this deck due to the mana denial cards.

Barook
11-07-2014, 04:22 PM
Tombs are essential at enabling T1 Chalice, T2 Trini/Choke, and fueling GSZ.

I just played a bunch of games on cockatrice with a version of the deck playing 4 Rhinos instead of Baloth. The results were phenomenal. I played some grindy games against a Stoneblade deck with TNN and TC. BSkull and TNN were so underwhelming against Rhino, and they just kept piling on and pressuring until my opponent had enough. They were also crucial against a burn opponent because casting the first Rhino and GSZing for the second gave a big enough life swing to turn the game in my favor and kill my opponent before he killed me.

Now that I have played the 3 colored list and didn't feel any mana problems, I have been thinking about adding Vindicate to the mix instead of Rolling Spoil. In practice I care more about Batterskull than Nemesis, especially now that I have Rhinos instead of Baloths. Turning Spoils into additional Batterskull answers and general removal sounds great.
Can you post a list?

And wasn't Spoil added as sweeper against all those pesky X/1s?

Qweerios
11-07-2014, 05:51 PM
Can you post a list?

And wasn't Spoil added as sweeper against all those pesky X/1s?

Spoil is just really good in the metagame because of Elves, DnT, and Nemesis respectively.

I played a greedy list to test a little bit of everything today:


1 Dryad Arbor
1-2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Choke
2-3 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest

//SB
1 Karakas
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
2 Null Rod
3 Rest in Peace


As expected, it gets a little difficult to play 3 colors AND Wastelands together. If I were to stick with the original list and stay true to BG, I would definitely play 4 Wastelands, otherwise I think the 3c version is simply better. You get strict card upgrades and similar mana stability but you have to skimp on the basic land count (still play 2-3 but not 5+) and forfeit Wastelands. RiP out of the board is a monster right now and I really like it in this deck. For this reason I was thinking about playing a split between DRS and Noble/Birds.

I will test some more and bring back the results.

Lejay
11-08-2014, 02:26 AM
There is no question siege rhino is better than baloth once resolved and in a meta with so few discard. I also like vindicate. The only question is if you can you find a manabase that suits that. If you run 4 wastelands 4 ancient tomb 4 siege rhino i don't see how you could play without some signets.

Édit : there is the fetchable treefolk triland also. But cip tapped will probably make it no good.

apple713
11-08-2014, 03:05 AM
Spoil is just really good in the metagame because of Elves, DnT, and Nemesis respectively.

I played a greedy list to test a little bit of everything today:


1 Dryad Arbor
1-2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Choke
2-3 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest

//SB
1 Karakas
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
2 Null Rod
3 Rest in Peace


As expected, it gets a little difficult to play 3 colors AND Wastelands together. If I were to stick with the original list and stay true to BG, I would definitely play 4 Wastelands, otherwise I think the 3c version is simply better. You get strict card upgrades and similar mana stability but you have to skimp on the basic land count (still play 2-3 but not 5+) and forfeit Wastelands. RiP out of the board is a monster right now and I really like it in this deck. For this reason I was thinking about playing a split between DRS and Noble/Birds.

I will test some more and bring back the results.

i haven't played this list but it just looks like it is lacking threats. I've played decks where they lack threats and the defense needed is typically more than this. you really only have 9 threats. 4 rhino 1 thrag and 4 GSZ. Decks like delver get away with it because they can protect them and they are cheap to cast. with this deck, its slower, and no ability to counter or really protect for that matter.

with the inclusion of vindicate, the focus seems to have switched from aggro to more control...is that what you were hoping for?

Qweerios
11-08-2014, 02:01 PM
You dont need to protect tour threats because This Is a stompy deck... Your opponent shouldn't be able to cast much through Chalice, Trini and Choke. Besides, our threats are Bolt and Decay proof for the most part. In fact all your creatures are functionally Decay proof because the decks that play Decay oughts to use them on lock pieces.

In every prison deck you should be more concerned with the quality of your threat rather than the quantity. You want your threats to go all the way because your priority is to lock your opponent, not to play mindless aggro. All you need is a reliable way to win after the speed bumps. I would even play something like Helm of Obedience if the circumstances allow.

apple713
11-08-2014, 02:56 PM
You dont need to protect tour threats because This Is a stompy deck... Your opponent shouldn't be able to cast much through Chalice, Trini and Choke. Besides, our threats are Bolt and Decay proof for the most part. In fact all your creatures are functionally Decay proof because the decks that play Decay oughts to use them on lock pieces.

In every prison deck you should be more concerned with the quality of your threat rather than the quantity. You want your threats to go all the way because your priority is to lock your opponent, not to play mindless aggro. All you need is a reliable way to win after the speed bumps. I would even play something like Helm of Obedience if the circumstances allow.

helm of obedience wtf? maybe you've never played an aggro deck before. you start out well with the idea that your threats should be quality then suggest including cards that is dead more than half the time....

while out threats need to be quality its hard because they are easily outclassed by anything with a sword equipped to it. later versions posted here have cut rolling spoils and will fail to beat TNN with.




Édit : there is the fetchable treefolk triland also. But cip tapped will probably make it no good.

you could run murmuring bosk...

could change some of the creatures to treefolk because together they are very powerful.


Doran, the Siege Tower
timber protector
Leaf-Crowned Elder
Dauntless Dourbark
Dungrove Elder
Sapling of Colfenor
Wickerbough Elder
Heartwood Storyteller


leaf crown appears not to work with trinisphere tho. outside of that they seem to have decent synergy.

Golgari4Life
11-08-2014, 05:52 PM
Would you bring this deck to the GP in Jersey? It has to beat Delver and combo and I don't see Roiling Spoil being played super early against Elves to stop them from going off. I am curious what you'd play list wise if you went to Jersey. I am interested in playing this but I need a list and some evidence of testing against a gauntlet.

rancOr_
11-08-2014, 06:42 PM
@Lejay

I did some extensive testing this week with the deck.
*First off, I tried the one-off Tarmogoyf as 2cmc target because I had some games where I needed it vs. Elves and Delver decks early on. It fits pretty nice, although in the end I decided to not include it because I needed the spot for something else.

*About Sylvan Library, almost in all the games I played this was MVP. I upped the count to #4 which I think is correct. The first one either gets countered/decayed,.. and if its not u are in great shape anyway against most decks. It's also very nice when u mull to 6 and open up with a library. Once u resolve the first copy u should be fine with the fetches/gsz etc. to not draw any extra copies .. The power level of this card is so absurd and it combo's so well with all the lifegain and the Courser that I feel the downside of possibly opening with 2 in hand is neglectable.

*Because there was some discussion going on about playing with Siege Rhino in a 3c build, I decided to test this shell aswell. The mana base is really awkward when u try to do that, making it way less consistent then just BG. Yes, ofcourse Siege Rhino is stronger then Baloth, but weakening ur manabase that much and exposing it to Blood Moon/ Price of Progress,.. is very bad like u mentioned.

*Playing with the full set of Wasteland is probably the right call(or atleast play 3 ) keeping a 24land count.

*I also went down to just 1 Deathrite Shaman, I think its perfectly fine to just play 1-2 copies, and playing 4 Sylvan Library justifies this even more. I went up to 3 Rolling Spoils because it has alot of synergy aswell with the deck.
As for the creature base im now playing 1 arbor,1DRS,1Courser,1Sage,4Baloth,1 Thragtusk and 1 Hydra. I feel it might be correct to cut the hydra for the 4th Rolling Spoils(as they kinda have the same purpose of winning through tokens,elves,TNN,..). Further testing will have to show.

* I tested the Cpriest SB like I said(full set) against good Sneaky Show/Reanimtor/Ichorid players and they were awesome. U need it against Sneak Attack,Reanimator,Dredge to really be able to win consistently. I combine this with 2Faerie Macabre to have more outs against explosive Dredge, Reanimator starts. U can also board any amount in against Elves combined with Gaddock Teeg. Because they only come in versus non-wasteland combo decks, 1 Savannah sb is perfect.

Thanks for putting this up, looking forward to improve this even further.

Greetings-

adrieng
11-10-2014, 04:44 PM
What about adding
Squandered Resources
Titania, Protector of Argoth

I am trying to find a build that breaks this interaction basically turn three you can make 4 5/3.

Turn two ressources ; turn three Titania return a fetch sac two lands.makes 3 token 5/3+her.

I don't know if it is danger of cool things cause Titania is decent on his own and ressources can be good in a stompy shell.

apple713
11-10-2014, 04:59 PM
What about adding
Squandered Resources
Titania, Protector of Argoth

I am trying to find a build that breaks this interaction basically turn three you can make 4 5/3.

Turn two ressources ; turn three Titania return a fetch sac two lands.makes 3 token 5/3+her.

I don't know if it is danger of cool things cause Titania is decent on his own and ressources can be good in a stompy shell.

i feel like this strategy would be very weak because titania is boltable, and you have to sacrifice lands which would put you so behind if something happens like terminus or they get chump blocked.

adrieng
11-10-2014, 05:08 PM
i feel like this strategy would be very weak because titania is boltable, and you have to sacrifice lands which would put you so behind if something happens like terminus or they get chump blocked.

First of all you play chalice of the void, secondly you are not going all in you can play slowly.

And just as a 5 cc ten power is decent returning a fetch.

If you have ressource you can just do 3-4 5/3 in response of the bolt. This deck already plays 5cc creature and this one is one of the best one.

I see this combo also in Nic-fit.

Lejay
11-10-2014, 05:24 PM
Things keep on going even better, I wonder where this will stop and really hope people will play this at the GP.

So yesterday I tried taking into account all recurring remarks on the thread (which I agreed on) and try to apply everything in the list except splashing white for reasons already stated. I am still interested in Qweerios results though now that he decided he shouldn’t play 4 wastelands with it.
I put in 4 wastelands and have been totally totally satisfied with how much it is giving free wins in addition to improving random match-ups like infect. 4th isn’t obvious but thanks to the golgari signet and to keeping the deck BG it seems fine. I’ve cut down to 1 DRS because it seemed to work out for some people which make us use GSZ to full power more often. This slot was used to put back 4th library.
Against aggressive decks the times where I lose are often when I can’t cast my thragtusk. So I figured the right call might be to cut it completely. After all against aggressive decks like UR or burn when I tutor it, a baloth would have done the job as well everytime. There is also the fact that after trying to play without hydra and 1 thragtusk I realized I was still sideboarding out thragtusk versus non UR delver decks. And I was still worried about losing the kalonian combo for various match-ups, mainly elves.
Cutting Thragtusk weakens a bit control match-ups especially facing jace but I figured solifuge kind of compensated for that.
In the thragtusk slot I wanted a card that is still good against UR and something cheaper because when you wasteland your opponent you can’t have too many expensive dudes. So 2nd courser was an easy choice with 4 libraries. Being a great blocker makes you win more life than you’d think when you compare it to thragtusk. It also makes you “draw” disruption directly from the top of the library now.

After winning some two mens on mtgo I played the new list in dailies and I went 3-1 in the first four dailies I played with the changes (so 12-4). I’d say 75% winning in the toughest legacy field I know is quite good (even if that doesn't satisfy me :P). First two losses were to sneak show (I won against two on the same day) so I have been thinking about some way to edge against them. I changed the sb bassar slot into matsu-tribe sniper (another come back) and considered heavily putting savannah main deck to play 2 karakas sideboard. The matsu is useful against delver though vulnerable, but much better for the sneak match-up. I also realized it was quite useful versus infect. Savannah main feels like it will be too often a liability, whatever is the slot I cut (and safest is probably 4th wasteland), so I’ll keep one karakas at the moment. But feel free to test that especially if you expect lots of sneak show at the GP.

My two other losses were to miracles and esper. Some of the games I felt the lack of big threats (0 thragtusk compared to the previous two) facing Jace fateseal and having too many answers in hand. So I thought about which sideboard cards I could make evolve into answers that are also threats for jace and the best I found was to change the grips into qasali pridemages. They are an early body by themselves and exaltation alone is a thing versus Jace so I figured the white splash wouldn’t be a problem versus control, especially since you most of the time should tutor them and you have 4 libraries. I hope they will be good enough to answer batterskul since that’s the primary reason to run grips rather than bramblecrush or maelstom pulse. Please tell me if you find other ideas.

Let’s finish with maybe the nicest. I realized how much better Titania, protector of Argoth would be in a build with 4 wastelands compared to what I was figuring out at the beginning when comparing it to Kalonian. Wastelanding an additional land and wastelanding yourself give it pretty good value.
I went 4-0 in the last daily a couple minutes before finishing writing this. I don’t think Titania changed the outcome but it sure demonstrated some power. Synergy with double courser racing flyers was nice and dryad chumping also makes a 5/3. I even played rolling spoil on a forest of mine for good use. I had the Kalonian in the sideboard in the Bassara/mastu-tribe sniper slot because I am not sure I can play without it yet, but I really think Titania was made for this deck if we are running 4 wastelands. It should do even more facing Jace than thragtusk when quite late in the game.
Pridemages were better than grips against a miracles deck. Not sure I would have lost with grips (drew runner runner grips versus an opponent locked by choke with CB and 1 plain) but I would have given my opponent a lot of time to find a council’s judgmenent+mana or whatever without the cats' clock.

So I have been even happier with everything than I already was and am quite confident for the deck in the near future (including this week-end if enough people play it).


EDIT after reading previous posts : we shouldn't fear bolt too much. We can lock them out from playing them and bolt decks are good match-ups anyway. Squandered ressources is too weak without Titania for my taste, I prefer to prison them and use my other cards to "survive their board"/"if things didn't go according to the plan" rather than drawing cards that are useless on their own. Remember I cut Natural Order from this deck :)

Final decklist :

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland (city of traitors has been cut for 4th waste as I have quite lowered the curve)
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [] Reclamation Sage
1 [] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
1 [CMD] Golgari Signet (Try to get them before going to the GP, not sure shops will have it :P)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [R] Savannah (could be main deck for another karakas if you feel you need it)
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra (in the Bassara/matsu slot)
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

Barook
11-10-2014, 07:53 PM
Watched the replays on MODO. Titania seemed quite impressive. Where did you get it from? The copies seem rather sparse, and I might want to try out the deck as it seems like fun.

As far as Sneak and Show is concerned, have you tried out Containment Priest yet?

Memories of the Time
11-10-2014, 08:29 PM
I'm lurking since the OP, like all the Chalice deck =)
I'm testing this version:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah

4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Titania

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Garruk Relentless
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 3 Rest in Peace

I really don't like Baloth, 4 mana for a 4/4 is very poor. Die by Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, block by Pyromancer's token, by anything.
SB is very different, the one i don't like is Garruk Relentess probably. Null rod si the best against equip&Miracle, probably too many jitte? Dunno.

apple713
11-10-2014, 09:22 PM
Final decklist :

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland (city of traitors has been cut for 4th waste as I have quite lowered the curve)
5 [UNH] Forest

1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [] Reclamation Sage
1 [] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth

1 [CMD] Golgari Signet (Try to get them before going to the GP, not sure shops will have it :P)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [R] Savannah (could be main deck for another karakas if you feel you need it)
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra (in the Bassara/matsu slot)
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

while I generally agree with most of the points you have made throughout the thread, I find it very hard to believe that the manabase is too weak if you -1 forest +1 savannah, -2 baloth +2 siege rhino. Heck, even if you only did 1 siege rhino it would be better because with GSZ even having 1 is great. I think having 1 savannah should be able to at least support 2 siege rhino. at 2 you may or may not draw it, but in the event you do draw it, its likely you will also have a fetch land. If you fetch it early and it gets wasteland maybe you shouldn't have fetched it so early...

making that slight change should have a noticeable impact AND free up a sideboard slot.

Qweerios
11-10-2014, 09:34 PM
@Apple713,

I suggest you re-read what I wrote in my last post as you seem to be misunderstanding. I didn't suggest playing Helm of Obedience I simply stated that if the circumstances allowed, I would play it. If by some twist of fate the metagame gets significantly more crippled by Rest in Peace and the card becomes a maindeck staple just like Choke, Chalice, and Trini, I wouldn't be against playing Helm as a win condition instead of creatures. The whole point of my post was to emphasize the fact that creatures are only one way to win, and that our primary gameplan is to play lock pieces, not to overwhelm the board with creatures. This is the difference between a prison deck and an aggro deck.

@Lejay,

I see no valid reasons to play less than 4 Ancient Tombs in this deck. The rational behind Ancient Tombs is the same as playing no less than 4 Trinispheres, 4 Chalices, and 4 Chokes. You probably know this by now but a T1 Chalice on the play or on the draw is often a game winning play. Being able to play any of the above by T2 is extremely crucial and is emphasized by the fact that a significant proportion of our success is attributed to winning the die roll. I wouldn't downplay our free-wins potential for a mere 2 life points. The benefits of a T1 Ancient Tomb easily outweigh the costs of drawing additional ones.

Also, I don't think your list has enough access to black mana. I had more access to colored sources with my 3 color/4 Wasteland deck. How many basics do you "need" to play through Blood Moon or around Price of Progress? How badly do you have to do either of these? This deck is already forced to extend into Wasteland and we can't afford to slowroll our land drops to play around it when it is obviously conflicting with our main strategy of "Lock ASAP and beat". I think it is perfectly manageable to play around PoP with 2-4 Forests and 0-1 Swamp and all we need against Blood Moon is a Forest. Is the Swamp even necessary against Blood Moon? I highly question the inclusion of a non-green producing land in what is essentially a monogreen deck with 4 Tombs and 4 Wastes. Functionally you can cast everything except Decay through Blood Moon with 2 Forests. Not only Swamp is less accessible than Forest in this deck but we have more incentives to fetch the second Forest than the first Swamp against a Blood Moon deck. Besides, Blood Moon can be answered with Reclamation Sage and we can play DRS for black mana if we need to cast Decay. I would sooner increase the fetch count and play the full 4 Bayous rather than risk taking a little too many hits from a Delver or Goyf because I can't find a black source.

Having a 2nd Deathrite is becoming increasingly important to me. I understand that we want to play as few as possible in order to avoid some obvious anti-synergy but I have been forced into the second one more than once before simply because of Trinisphere and removal/wastes, or because I needed GY hate and my opponent clearly didn't want me to have any. It is interesting to note how 2 DRS is the magic number to dismantle Dredge G1. If I played only one DRS, I would definitely play Ooze along with it.

I can't get behind 4 Sylvan Library. I understand how amazing this card is but there are several things it is not, such as:

1) Being good in multiples. We have no ways to undo dead cards. A starting hand with 2 Libraries, or any hand where you draw a 2nd Library before you get to play the first one is essentially a mulligan to 6 for a card intended to make you draw quality/quantity. The glaring issue here is that the card puts you at a deficit to begin with and the only way to make up for it is by paying large amounts of life. If Jace wasn't blue (Force, Brainstorm), and couldn't put other Jaces back on top, he wouldn't see play as much more than a 1 or 2-of in decks that cannot use the additional copies.

2) Having an immediate effect. Take note that Library does not replace itself until the very next turn, and only if you pay 4 life. For a Library to be effective you have to have lots of life points to spare and lots of turns to activate it for Library to truly be good.

Ideally, Library is a card you play 1 of and get when you need. However, since Library is an effect we highly value because of the nature of our deck, we have to bite the bullet on this one and play multiples. There is a lot to be gained statistically by going from 1 to 2 copies and everything else has diminishing returns. For these reasons I wouldn't play more than 2-3 copies of the card with 2 copies being the optimal number. I believe cards like Courser of Kruphix allows us to play less copies of Library by mimicking the card advantage/quality properties of Library while also not overlapping and incidentally having impressive synergy.

Concerning Goglari Signet, I don't understand its place in your deck. It is random and doesn't do anything particularly important except being slow and clunky. If this slot is intended for mana, I would suggest playing another land (perhaps the 4th Bayou or the coveted Savannah). I think there are much better cards than Signets to be played in Legacy if your game plan doesn't revolve around them (AKA: Tezzerator).

About Qasali Pridemage, is it the effect or the body that you want? If you want the effect, Krosan Grip is much better, and if you want both, Reclamation Sage gives you both. Pridemage forces you to make a choice between effect and body while also being off-color. I don't recommend it.

Faerie Macabre seems a little too narrow. If you already intend on playing a white splash, I highly recommend Rest in Peace instead because it acts as an additional lock piece against a wide variety of decks while also being much more backbreaking as a form of GY hate. I agree that Macabre is better against Reanimator but if you value consistency and flexibility, RiP is the better card.

Another interesting thing I've noticed is that your choices of silver bullets in your GSZ package seem a little off. A lot of people suffer from what I call: "Nic Fit Syndrom". When you see more potential than you should in an over-costed card because your deck has more ability than other decks to play high-end cards. That form of leeway in deck building comes with an innate desire to be special and unique and sometimes coerces us into making bad choices. Don't mistake me with the guy that comes out of nowhere and says your cards are bad and your deck is bad because you play cards that are unplayable by legacy standards. However, there is some truth to that in the sense that bad cards are sometimes bad because they don't do much at all while some other bad cards are only bad because they are deemed "uncastable" by most decks in most legacy environments.

For starters, Giant Solifuge is extremely narrow and underwhelming compared to Thrun. Solifuge is only better than Thrun against a Jace with 3 counters. Thrun on the other hand is bigger, much more resilient, uncountable if you draw it, and does overall a lot more against other bad situations such as facing Batterskull. Against a Miracle player in general, I would sooner pick Thrun (especially with Karakas in the SB) simply because a Miracle player has way less answers to Thrun than Solifuge.

Looking at Stingerfling Spider makes me cringe. A 5 mana answer to Delver that you intend to GSZ for isn't worth its salt. Even if the card has some form of application against SnT, I would still value a card like Go for the Throat or Putrefy instead. At least those cards come down in time against Delver and can be used against a lot more cards than a giant reaching spider. Putrefy and Maelstrom Pulse are especially good SB cards in this deck because they handle multiple of our nemeses such as Batterskull, Jitte, Goyfs and even Liliana.

Kalonian Hydra as a SB card doesn't really address a specific issue. Hydra is to Sylvan Plug as Goyf is to RUG: it is our big beater. You rarely see RUG decks packing Goyfs in their SB because it is best played as a mainboard card and has little impact as a G2 and G3 card. If Hydra isn't good enough for the main, I'm afraid it isn't good enough for the sideboard either.

Keep in mind that this is all constructive criticism and is not meant to offend you. I value your opinion and I only bring these points up because I believe they are valid. I honestly believe the deck has potential and would like to make the optimal list.

Mr.Todd
11-10-2014, 09:35 PM
First off congrats I joined this forum just to comment on this thread.

I was wondering if we played something like this....

3 deathrite shaman
4 thalia
2 scavenging ooze
2 knight of the reliquary
1 spike weaver
1 thragtusk
1 titania

4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
3 choke
4 abrupt decay
4 green sun zenith
3 sylvan library

1 tabernacle of pendrel vale
1 urborg
4 bayou
3 savannah
4 verdent catacoms
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 forest

Just some thoughts. I also like the possibilities of playing stoneforge mystic and equipment package

Qweerios
11-11-2014, 12:33 AM
I have been testing the deck intensively for the past few days because I am still undecided on what to bring to Jersey. So far I have my eyes set on a Junk Nic Fit deck but Junk Sylvan Plug is also quite promising. Here is my latest list with some interesting techs:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest
//SB
4 Rolling Spoil
4 Rest in Peace
2 Null Rod
1 Karakas
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk


Vindicate is absolutely amazing in the deck. It makes sure my opponent stays locked under Trinisphere and it kills everything that can slip through the lock (Batterskull and Delver).

I am now convinced that a singleton KotR is now a must in this deck for several reasons. It completely locks an opponent out with Trinisphere as you get to fetch Wasteland every turn. KotR's ability has some great synergy with Kruphix. The singleton Karakas is now more accessible which makes the SnT matchup a bit better. KotR is another great way to convert excessive land drops and gets really big, really fast.

Scryb Ranger is still being tested but it is a fast and reliable way to stop a Delver and activate KotR and DRS several times a turn while also protecting from Wastelands and making sure Kruphix gives at least 1 life per turn. Scryb + Kruphix stops a Delver + YP board and there isn't much they can do about it if you have a chalice@1 or Trini+Choke.

Rolling Spoil belongs in the sideboard. The card is excessively good in only a handful of matchups and those are usually the ones where Choke come out.

Ricflairwoo
11-11-2014, 01:19 AM
You have to buy the edh deck to get her. She's been great so far... I could almost see wanting 2. I think it could also be good in some kind of KOTR shell.

apple713
11-11-2014, 02:05 AM
@Qweerios
ancient tomb: agree

Blood moon: you shouldn't be worried about blood moon really. its played in only a few decks and you don't get blown out by it if it lands. the decks that run it in the SB are not thinking to bring it in against you. the list isn't well known enough for them to guess it could hurt, especially if you are fetching up basics game 1.

Sylvan library: it gets countered, and abrupt decayed almost immediately, so drawing 2 is rarely a bad thing. having 2 in play is...

Golgari Signet: other than producing abrupt decay mana to combat moon effects rather pointless as a 1 of

Pridemage: agree

Faerie Macabre: in his list running so little white he cannot rely on RIP. Macabre is an on the draw t0 answer against a deck where you might need it that quickly. Obviously RIP is better, but being able to cast it reliably when you need it makes it less than optimal, at least running the list he is with so little white mana.

Solifuge: agree

Stingerflinger: agree

Kalonian Hydra: agree




junk list....

seems intuitive to run titania with kotr at least 1

MD.Ghost
11-11-2014, 06:28 AM
Golgari Signet seems the worst slot, if you need some "ramp" which doesn't die to most removal you can try:
Sylvan Caryatid - Sure if Chalice/Trinisphere forms a lock, hexproof isn't needed, but a wall can block most legacy ground units and hexproof help to let it stay bolt, decay, swords etc. proof at any time, no matter if you have lockpieces. With Zenith you can tutor it if needed. Seems way better than Golgari Signet - but i am unsure, if this deck needs one more "ramp". Green brings various Ramp-Creatures for example: Sylvan Ranger, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder - all of them also love Courser of Kruphix ;)

If you fear (UR) Delver Swings you can also try: Penumbra Spider, even without any lockpieces, UR Delver can struggle against it - at the end it will buy some time to find other cards.

I hope the GBw Version will gain some good results, i love Siege Rhino here (but i think 3 seems more than enough).

Lejay
11-11-2014, 06:54 AM
Watched the replays on MODO. Titania seemed quite impressive. Where did you get it from? The copies seem rather sparse, and I might want to try out the deck as it seems like fun.

As far as Sneak and Show is concerned, have you tried out Containment Priest yet?
I didn't try priest yet. I probably won't as I feel the hate needs to be faster than my prison pieces for full value. That and the disynergy doesn't make me want to test it.
I searched for Titania in the trade section one hour before the daily and waited. 20 minutes before the daily appeared a bot with two of them for 9 tickets each.


I'm lurking since the OP, like all the Chalice deck =)
I'm testing this version:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah

4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Titania

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Garruk Relentless
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 3 Rest in Peace

I really don't like Baloth, 4 mana for a 4/4 is very poor. Die by Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, block by Pyromancer's token, by anything.
SB is very different, the one i don't like is Garruk Relentess probably. Null rod si the best against equip&Miracle, probably too many jitte? Dunno.If you want null rod against equipments you probably shouldn't play jittes.
Revoker dies to all your sweepers effect and it should be a problem from time to time.
Siege vs Baloth is only a matter of mana base as I already said.


while I generally agree with most of the points you have made throughout the thread, I find it very hard to believe that the manabase is too weak if you -1 forest +1 savannah, -2 baloth +2 siege rhino. Heck, even if you only did 1 siege rhino it would be better because with GSZ even having 1 is great. I think having 1 savannah should be able to at least support 2 siege rhino. at 2 you may or may not draw it, but in the event you do draw it, its likely you will also have a fetch land. If you fetch it early and it gets wasteland maybe you shouldn't have fetched it so early...

making that slight change should have a noticeable impact AND free up a sideboard slot.
With 1 savannah I would play 1 siege rhino and two for two or three Rhinos.

@Lejay,

I see no valid reasons to play less than 4 Ancient Tombs in this deck. The rational behind Ancient Tombs is the same as playing no less than 4 Trinispheres, 4 Chalices, and 4 Chokes. You probably know this by now but a T1 Chalice on the play or on the draw is often a game winning play. Being able to play any of the above by T2 is extremely crucial and is emphasized by the fact that a significant proportion of our success is attributed to winning the die roll. I wouldn't downplay our free-wins potential for a mere 2 life points. The benefits of a T1 Ancient Tomb easily outweigh the costs of drawing additional ones.
The only problem I have with ancient tomb is the current environment. UR is by far the most played and I don't think it will be specific to the online meta. Burn is also very played online and from what I hear those two decks will be top choices for people not used to playing legacy at GP NJ.



Also, I don't think your list has enough access to black mana. I had more access to colored sources with my 3 color/4 Wasteland deck. How many basics do you "need" to play through Blood Moon or around Price of Progress? How badly do you have to do either of these? This deck is already forced to extend into Wasteland and we can't afford to slowroll our land drops to play around it when it is obviously conflicting with our main strategy of "Lock ASAP and beat". I think it is perfectly manageable to play around PoP with 2-4 Forests and 0-1 Swamp and all we need against Blood Moon is a Forest. Is the Swamp even necessary against Blood Moon? I highly question the inclusion of a non-green producing land in what is essentially a monogreen deck with 4 Tombs and 4 Wastes. Functionally you can cast everything except Decay through Blood Moon with 2 Forests. Not only Swamp is less accessible than Forest in this deck but we have more incentives to fetch the second Forest than the first Swamp against a Blood Moon deck. Besides, Blood Moon can be answered with Reclamation Sage and we can play DRS for black mana if we need to cast Decay. I would sooner increase the fetch count and play the full 4 Bayous rather than risk taking a little too many hits from a Delver or Goyf because I can't find a black source.
Swamp isn't mandatory I'd say, but it hasn't been a problem so far either. I do appreciate it for massacre and deluge, mainly massacre. There are match-ups where you need to hardcast massacre that play wasteland. The PoP issue isn't a marginal one in my opinion. The mana base you advocate is decent, but I still see the one in your list only has ONE basic. Turning a very popular match-up from an almost complete bye to a bad match-up because of that manabase is the only thing that still prevents me from testing it. Honestly I would have already without that, but I expect burn to be quite played at GP NJ and it sure is online.



Having a 2nd Deathrite is becoming increasingly important to me. I understand that we want to play as few as possible in order to avoid some obvious anti-synergy but I have been forced into the second one more than once before simply because of Trinisphere and removal/wastes, or because I needed GY hate and my opponent clearly didn't want me to have any. It is interesting to note how 2 DRS is the magic number to dismantle Dredge G1. If I played only one DRS, I would definitely play Ooze along with it.
Yes I liked 2 DRS and the choice is also fine.
Ooze is too weak too often main unfortunately (I started with it main deck and a second in the sideboard) especially now with 4 wastelands. It's a side in versus UR/burn but not the best, so I don't think aggressive meta entices us to play it main.



I can't get behind 4 Sylvan Library. I understand how amazing this card is but there are several things it is not, such as:

1) Being good in multiples. We have no ways to undo dead cards. A starting hand with 2 Libraries, or any hand where you draw a 2nd Library before you get to play the first one is essentially a mulligan to 6 for a card intended to make you draw quality/quantity. The glaring issue here is that the card puts you at a deficit to begin with and the only way to make up for it is by paying large amounts of life. If Jace wasn't blue (Force, Brainstorm), and couldn't put other Jaces back on top, he wouldn't see play as much more than a 1 or 2-of in decks that cannot use the additional copies.

2) Having an immediate effect. Take note that Library does not replace itself until the very next turn, and only if you pay 4 life. For a Library to be effective you have to have lots of life points to spare and lots of turns to activate it for Library to truly be good.

Ideally, Library is a card you play 1 of and get when you need. However, since Library is an effect we highly value because of the nature of our deck, we have to bite the bullet on this one and play multiples. There is a lot to be gained statistically by going from 1 to 2 copies and everything else has diminishing returns. For these reasons I wouldn't play more than 2-3 copies of the card with 2 copies being the optimal number. I believe cards like Courser of Kruphix allows us to play less copies of Library by mimicking the card advantage/quality properties of Library while also not overlapping and incidentally having impressive synergy.
I believe 3 or 4 are the optimal numbers. I'd argue for 4th saying having it in starting hand is much better than drawing it, you always get forced/decay out of the first, and it's awesome with several coursers (you don't pay life anymore to draw cards but gain life). If consistency is the reason to play a green chalice shell then playing 4 not as out of place as you describe.



Concerning Goglari Signet, I don't understand its place in your deck. It is random and doesn't do anything particularly important except being slow and clunky. If this slot is intended for mana, I would suggest playing another land (perhaps the 4th Bayou or the coveted Savannah). I think there are much better cards than Signets to be played in Legacy if your game plan doesn't revolve around them (AKA: Tezzerator).
The slot could be 2nd DRS, as I am sure I want it to be an accel. As a singleton it offers nice options with sol lands. Playing it turn two off two lands versus a daze/pierce deck put them in front of an uncomfortable choice. The fact that it doesn't get bolted is huge.
On the one hand I probably need it more than you since I have one less tomb, but on the other hand it will be even better in your shell with 4 tombs and more color requirements. You should really try one instead of another mana source and may end up with two.



About Qasali Pridemage, is it the effect or the body that you want? If you want the effect, Krosan Grip is much better, and if you want both, Reclamation Sage gives you both. Pridemage forces you to make a choice between effect and body while also being off-color. I don't recommend it.

Of course krosan is better for the effect. But I needed my krosan grips to be able to threaten Jace when they have nothing to destroy. Having too many answers is exactly how I lost this game versus esper because in that match-up I have to side in not only krosan but also massacre and deluge. All these nice cards are the reason I lost facing a fatesealing Jace. As I feel it's a set up that could easily reproduce I want to play things that can do both, until I am proven I am losing too much without Krosan grip.


Faerie Macabre seems a little too narrow. If you already intend on playing a white splash, I highly recommend Rest in Peace instead because it acts as an additional lock piece against a wide variety of decks while also being much more backbreaking as a form of GY hate. I agree that Macabre is better against Reanimator but if you value consistency and flexibility, RiP is the better card.
Same answer than to the containment priest comment. I feel additionnal hate has too be pretty fast. Faerie macabre is exactly what I need versus dredge and reanimator but also versus storm where PiF is used a HIGH percentage of the time in my exeperience playing versus them.


Another interesting thing I've noticed is that your choices of silver bullets in your GSZ package seem a little off. A lot of people suffer from what I call: "Nic Fit Syndrom". When you see more potential than you should in an over-costed card because your deck has more ability than other decks to play high-end cards. That form of leeway in deck building comes with an innate desire to be special and unique and sometimes coerces us into making bad choices. Don't mistake me with the guy that comes out of nowhere and says your cards are bad and your deck is bad because you play cards that are unplayable by legacy standards. However, there is some truth to that in the sense that bad cards are sometimes bad because they don't do much at all while some other bad cards are only bad because they are deemed "uncastable" by most decks in most legacy environments.
I didn't try to have a particularly extended toolbox neither main or sideboard. A good tool box is a small one. I think the choices I made outside of weaver+Kalonian bring the best value.



For starters, Giant Solifuge is extremely narrow and underwhelming compared to Thrun. Solifuge is only better than Thrun against a Jace with 3 counters. Thrun on the other hand is bigger, much more resilient, uncountable if you draw it, and does overall a lot more against other bad situations such as facing Batterskull. Against a Miracle player in general, I would sooner pick Thrun (especially with Karakas in the SB) simply because a Miracle player has way less answers to Thrun than Solifuge.
Jace at three or two counters is something that happens all the time because they don't expect you to be able to deal with it. In that case I get more value out of solifuge versus Jace decks and combo decks where it replaces a baloth. I could see the comeback of a thrun but I think cutting solifuge for it would be a loss.
If your opponent has both batterskull and Jace you are so far behind that I doubt thrun would have get the job done.



Looking at Stingerfling Spider makes me cringe. A 5 mana answer to Delver that you intend to GSZ for isn't worth its salt. Even if the card has some form of application against SnT, I would still value a card like Go for the Throat or Putrefy instead. At least those cards come down in time against Delver and can be used against a lot more cards than a giant reaching spider. Putrefy and Maelstrom Pulse are especially good SB cards in this deck because they handle multiple of our nemeses such as Batterskull, Jitte, Goyfs and even Liliana.
An unanswered delver being by far the main way to lose to delver decks, I want my GSZ to do something for it. You can save time against flipped delver with the deck, but be unable to race it. This is why I have it. I priviliege Spider over Bassara tower archer precisely because you can save time by gaining life and because it is so much better versus a board of several delvers/vs D&T/vs sneak.



Kalonian Hydra as a SB card doesn't really address a specific issue. Hydra is to Sylvan Plug as Goyf is to RUG: it is our big beater. You rarely see RUG decks packing Goyfs in their SB because it is best played as a mainboard card and has little impact as a G2 and G3 card. If Hydra isn't good enough for the main, I'm afraid it isn't good enough for the sideboard either.
Absolutely. But I don't consider it a sideboard card. Consider that as a temporary mesure until I find a better way to either play without it (for example using siege rhinos + priests that would compensate versus elves) or to reinclude it in the main deck.


First off congrats I joined this forum just to comment on this thread.

I was wondering if we played something like this....

3 deathrite shaman
4 thalia
2 scavenging ooze
2 knight of the reliquary
1 spike weaver
1 thragtusk
1 titania

4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
3 choke
4 abrupt decay
4 green sun zenith
3 sylvan library

1 tabernacle of pendrel vale
1 urborg
4 bayou
3 savannah
4 verdent catacoms
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 forest

Just some thoughts. I also like the possibilities of playing stoneforge mystic and equipment package
Thalia seems horrible with your lock pieces. I don't know why you would want to scavenging ooze main deck, especially with 3 DRS. Playing 3 DRS with Kotr and Titania will lead to some troubles regularly. Urborg is unplayable in this trinispehre choke deck, you don't want people to make mana with fetches. I don't see spike weaver being good enough without the combo with kalonian hydra. Tabernacle wouldn't be too much out of place in the deck but you have far too many creatures with it. Without dryad arbor GSZ loses its versatility. Play 4 choke or don't play this deck depending on the metagame, but don't do in betweens.


Rolling Spoil belongs in the sideboard. The card is excessively good in only a handful of matchups and those are usually the ones where Choke come out.
I would be worried about running rolling spoils as the only sweepers. Both because of cards like serra avenger/mirran crusader/moggcatcher etc..and because they are expensive and I found out playing massacres was a big step in making patriot and esper good match-ups. Vindicate is helping versus most of those (not mirran) but aren't there some games where the land destruction plan goes wrong and they keep on landing and playing threats that won't die to a -1/-1 ?

Memories of the Time
11-11-2014, 08:08 AM
I agree with Qweerios. Revoker is here for S&T, painter, miracle: without him i think i want to up Null Rod to 3 and Contamination priest to 3 of course: S&T scares me.
Very interesting evolutions of the deck, btw. I'll try Kotr

Barook
11-11-2014, 08:56 AM
With the input of the last two pages, I'm also going to brew, since there are lots of interesting ideas. I'm leaning towards a more white-heavy build with Rhinos, though.

Revoker dies to all your sweepers effect and it should be a problem from time to time.
I was about to suggest Revoker as well since it helps against Miracles, Planeswalkers in general and is a major boon against S&T, especially in tandem with Karakas.

MD I might agree, but if you board in Revoker, I fail to see major overlaps of matches where you want to run Revoker and sweepers.

Lejay
11-11-2014, 09:08 AM
SFM decks run either TNN/SCM/Souls or White army of X/1s so you are not using it to block equipments.

Elves is a match-up where you'll need any help but won't side in revokers because sweepers are more important. You can possibly run both but don't tell me you'll be happy about that configuration.

Revoker is inferior to pulse/bramblecrush to answer planeswakers because the mana cost isn't an issue at this point and because the sorceries are both more versatile and less weak.

It is decent against storm but if I can run slots that can disrupt before my lock pieces touch the field I'd rather run those.

Revoker is nice versus sneak show, but since I really want lands that can replace ancient tombs in some match-ups I prefer having a karakas plan which is also better versus reanimator.

I played revokers at the very beginning as that's a classic interesting tool for stompy decks. Those reasons mainly made me move away from it for other slots.

Memories of the Time
11-11-2014, 09:24 AM
@Lejay: i'm very interested on your Side in/side out, because this deck isn't a Stompy deck, more like Stax/prison and i'm not too expert with these ones

Darklingske
11-11-2014, 09:38 AM
Very interesting debate these last few pages! I can see the reasons why it is tempting to play GWB (MD), but I'm going with Lejays reasoning. Weakening the manabase doesn't seem smart in this environment. I'm already seeing the number of wastelands going up in my region and I'm liking the deck in the basic G-form more just for this reason. I've been testing this deck now for a little week, but I'm having troubles with the sideboarding. I'm always lost with what to side out.
Lejay, do you mind giving a small SBguideline?

Lejay
11-11-2014, 09:59 AM
I didn't post any guide because i wanted to wait for the list to be stabilized. I'll post tonight or tomorrow how i sideboard unless great changes happen to the list. I'll try to test white splash in a daily tonight before i write those down.
Still not sure about kalonian's fate without rhinos.

Qweerios
11-11-2014, 11:39 AM
Personally I never side out my Ancient Tombs. Even against burn I like them because it virtually accelerates you a turn for 2 life. Every turn you delay against burn converts to 3+ damage. Landing a Daze proof Chalice on t2 against UR Delver or a T1 Chalice followed by t2 Trini is still the most efficient way to win IMO. I don't intend to beat burn decks without Chalice and perhaps that's why I don't take PoP too seriously.

On a different note, KotR is very efficient. Chaining Wastelands under Trini has been one of my main paths to victory.

rancOr_
11-11-2014, 12:25 PM
I will say it again but without CPriest dont expect to win any matches against Sneaky Show. I get the fact that its not played alot online, but in all seriousness Sneaky Show is a really good deck(which imho is criminally underplayed). This, combined with the fact that CPirest is really good against alot of other decks like Reanimator, Ichorid and even Elves makes me wonder some of the choices made here.. It complements playing 2 Faerie Macabre as those get boarded in aswell versus Ichorid and Dredge to help prevent fast combo kills. Playing 3c is cute and I like Siege Rhino alot too, but the manabase is horrible(4waste+4tomb+splashcolors is a no go for me). This reason alone should prevent u from playing 3c. On top of that the most played deck atm in UR Delver plays Blood Moon/PoP somewhere in the 75. And since the manabase only allows for 1-2 basics this is a serious problem.

Lejay
11-11-2014, 12:27 PM
With just one karakas I didn't expect you to side them all out but keeping them all is a bit surprising. It generally won't cost you 2 life, but more than that over the course of a game unless you use it as a crystal vein. But even in this case (which I don't recommend) it will still damage you for two more on PoP.
Activating tomb versus UR or burn is kind of the equivalent of having them draw and play for free 2/3 of a business card. I'd rather give them a turn and function on other lands.

The only games I could lose to burn were involving ancient tombs. Since I have this land plan the match-up has been quite unlosable with or without chalice.

An additionnal note on burn is that not only it should be played in high numbers, it also beats UR. So I think we should show some respect for the red mages.

Vindicate is 17 tickets a piece online. So I if I don't find someone to borrow them from I probably won't be able to test your list Qweerios.

GalaxyMonarch
11-11-2014, 12:38 PM
Hey all been rocking this on mtgo a little bit and have been loving it. Props to lejay for the concept and greatly written primer. Was playing the BG shell mostly then I tried Red(Huntmaster) and White(Rhino) splashes. White is the way to go I think even if it's just 1 Savannah as Siege Rhino is such a beating. Got me thinking Doran, the Siege Tower could be worth looking into considering Courser/DRS/Rhino all benefit.

Lejay
11-11-2014, 01:04 PM
Doran crossed my mind to deal with Nemesis. In a white build it's testable.
You meant a 1 of savannah for a 1 of Rhino ?

GalaxyMonarch
11-11-2014, 01:23 PM
Doran crossed my mind to deal with Nemesis. In a white build it's testable.
You meant a 1 of savannah for a 1 of Rhino ?

Yes as we already want Teeg out of the board I believe 1 Savannah + Siege Rhino in the main is well worth it if you don't want to stretch the mana base into a third color.

I'm almost wondering if Chrome Mox might be better than Tomb for the 3c version. Personally I found Tomb good because Baloth costs :2::g::g:, but if you trade Baloth for Rhino, Tomb becomes much more awkward outside of GSZ and locks.

Barook
11-11-2014, 06:12 PM
Currently playing Lejay's stock list to see how it goes before making changes.

One change I'm making is switching Giant Solifuge for Thrun, though - the spider is hardly impressive e.g. against Miracles when your opponent has Snapcasters/Cliques ready. Thrun should overall perform better.

Double Courser is definitely good.

I'm wondering how good Plague Spitter would be here. It's a pet card of mine, but it certainly keeps the board clean against opposing X/1 creatures.

Edit: I'm starting to run in white in the MD now. 2 Savannahs alongside 2 DRS (replaced the Signet with it) should gives me 9 potential duals + 2 DRS + 4 GSZ to fetch white sources. That should be plenty.

I know the MODO meta is ridiculously blue with 75+ %, but can't one Choke be moved into the sideboard? I'm looking for slots in the MD to throw in a KotR for testing purposes.

Gheizen64
11-11-2014, 06:51 PM
I think if you go tricolor and Rhinos, you should definitely go mox instead of Tombs.

Better for your life totals. Make 4 Wastes much more appealing. Allow you to play T1 Library too.
4 Library are a must if you go Mox imho. 4 Library are a must in general but whatever.

Barook
11-11-2014, 07:09 PM
Imprinting Choke in matches were it isn't necessary sounds good, but other than that, I'm not too sure if we really want to lose CA to it.

It also doesn't synergize well with Courser.

Jerry9
11-11-2014, 07:27 PM
imo, the problem with Plague Spitter is that it deals damage, and thus can not kill a TNN. Otherwise it does just fine as an alternative in the Toxic deluge slot. Against say DnT, the downside of StP is offset a bit by blanking most of their creatures until its answered.

Gheizen64
11-11-2014, 08:20 PM
Imprinting Choke in matches were it isn't necessary sounds good, but other than that, I'm not too sure if we really want to lose CA to it.

It also doesn't synergize well with Courser.

Tbh courser sinergize with Library, not lands. Giving up 4 lands slots for better odds at casting library is probably better for courser sinergy.
I've been testing it a bit and it seems decent for now, the mulls aren't as bad as i thought, and even if the CA is definitely an issue, it's far rarer to get stuck with vindicate/Ryhno/KotR/Decay in hand and you can run the full 4 wastes which are amazing in this deck. Chrome can also imprint cards under chalice (DRS if you run it after chalice at 1), and chokes against nonblue decks, as irrilevant as it may be.
Scryb ranger is also really cute, too bad we run no equips (and maybe we should with chrome since you can also SFM on T1 with it, mb remove the chokes if your meta ain't as blue for 3 sfm + 1 batterskull + 1 sword -1 rhyno).

EDIT: this is what i'll be testing tomorrow

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Siege Rhino
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan Library
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
3 Chrome Mox
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Horizon Canopy

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

apple713
11-12-2014, 12:30 AM
I'm wondering how good Plague Spitter would be here. It's a pet card of mine, but it certainly keeps the board clean against opposing X/1 creatures.


i like plague spitter but its probably overcosted, and has no immediate effect when coming into play, it dies to all removal, and can't block and survive.


I think if you go tricolor and Rhinos, you should definitely go mox instead of Tombs.

Better for your life totals. Make 4 Wastes much more appealing. Allow you to play T1 Library too.
4 Library are a must if you go Mox imho. 4 Library are a must in general but whatever.

i think if you are taking out tombs you have to replace them with a mox. I'm not suggesting that but if you are going to do it you have to compensate or else the deck just becomes a slow green deck...

Lejay
11-12-2014, 06:23 AM
So I played Qweerios' list in a daily yesterday thanks to TopWizard lending me his vindicates.

Round one I face Sneak show. I win Game one because he does nothing not even cantripping or countering my turn 2 chalice. He reaches up to 6 mana with two sol lands and 1 petal 1 fetch, but with Knight+vindicate he goes down to two and then I kill him in two attacks. Karakas main would have felt safer for the last two turns but you only have one knight and you have enough colorless lands already.
Game two he S&T turn 2 and I have nothing big to put against his griselbrand since the list doesn't run Titania/Stingerfling/Kalonian to race/kill it.
Game three he jams a turn 2 moon because he probably realized after game two I wasn't playing the exact same list he used to play against. I have a fetch in play so I get my forest but I can't play anything and then he goes sneak and emrakul the turn after wiping my board.

Round two I face a deathblade. I win game one pretty easily thanks to choke.
Game two and three I lose to big mana fulls. I don't want to criticize the 25 lands, but I'll make a point about playing only two libraries. It's worth noting Sylvan library turn 2 was forced turn two in two games (G1 and G3 or G2 and G3 not sure).
Also at one point I can play either siege rhino or GSZ for siege rhino, with dryad and another land in hand. I realize how I would question the choice with baloths but it's a no brain here with rhinos. He forces Siege rhino, untaps into cantrip -> thoughtseize and I smile.

Round three I face UR in the 0-2 bracket. He doesn't do much at all and I win 2-0. I kept all tombs like Qweerios does and it's worth noting that when trying to stabilize against his choked empty board on low life (7 I think) I had to tap two tombs to get a siege rhino with green sun zenith since I had Savannah, bayou and tomb x2. So instead of -4 +4 I went -4 +3, and worse than that, I had a siege rhino in hand which was uncastable when a baloth would have made me go +2 on life.

Round four I lose to a patriot deck against a good player at 2-1 who was nice enough to accept playing. Not much to say except I made another mana full game 2. Lost 2-0.

So getting some interesting feedback out of this, I think the question isn't 3 or 4 libraries now, but just playing 4 even without mox. The other interesting learning is I will no longer use the reasoning of "Baloth is inferior to rhino once resolved, only question is how can we support the manabase". Now it's more "you should win thanks to your prison pieces and when it goes badly you need to be able to cast creatures that will help you survive until you get more prison elements, answers, or your CA engine". So baloth being very easy to cast (or discard) is a major thing in the deck.
I do not totally exclude the alternative road of a small splash for 1 Rhino. But the experience with 4 went really in only one direction. I honestly would say it if trample would have helped facing TNNs or if keeping batterskull in check happened. I wanted to play this list on two dailies or at least one daily and some two mens (competition is less tougher in it) but after spewing those tickets for buys and the daily I don't really feel like doing it again.
It is worth noting that since I went up to 4 wasteland and cut thragtusk in my list I played 7 dailies and I made in the money (3-1 or better) everytime with six 3-1 and one 4-0.



I'm wondering how good Plague Spitter would be here. It's a pet card of mine, but it certainly keeps the board clean against opposing X/1 creatures.

Edit: I'm starting to run in white in the MD now. 2 Savannahs alongside 2 DRS (replaced the Signet with it) should gives me 9 potential duals + 2 DRS + 4 GSZ to fetch white sources. That should be plenty.

I know the MODO meta is ridiculously blue with 75+ %, but can't one Choke be moved into the sideboard? I'm looking for slots in the MD to throw in a KotR for testing purposes.
I thought of plague spitter at some point. But like it has been said all these sweepers effect have to answer TNN.
I wouldn't move choke to the sideboard. I think putting a trinisphere sideboard is better unless you are in a meta where you shouldn't play this deck because of not enough blue.

Regarding Mox. If people want to play with them again I suggest playtesting against blue sfm decks in your gauntlet in priority. These are the ones who made me cut card disadvantage acceleration, and I consider patriot as a good deck that also preys on UR. No sure about the UR vs esper match-up though.

bruizar
11-12-2014, 06:42 AM
I suggest

4x Sylvan Library
2x Words of Wilding

swap for Words of waste against combo

Lejay
11-12-2014, 07:00 AM
I suggest

4x Sylvan Library
2x Words of Wilding

swap for Words of waste against combo

It's not supposed to be a joke deck. I won't play cards that do nothing on their own (and the turn they CIP even with the combo). We lack space for a ton of valuable cards already and our cards against combo are faster than words of waste + sylvan.

bruizar
11-12-2014, 07:15 AM
Why the hostile tone? If you're running library and you're not cheating replacement effects with it through words, uba mask, dredge, etc. , I think you're leaving potential on the table.

You do realize that half your deck does nothing against a whole bunch of decks right (turbo eldrazi should crush this hard for instance [e.g. candelabra, repeal, glimmerpost, eye of ugin/eldrazi). If this is intended as a meta call against blue, how is this better than imperial painter which runs moons and rebs/pyros and a jaya ballard main deck.

Lejay
11-12-2014, 07:34 AM
Sorry didn't want to sound hostile, but I wasn't sure it was a joke or a serious proposition (wilds of wilding is often used jokingly in my area as being combo with brainstorm and such) so didn't want to say "not good enough" and then get a "was a joke dude". So I ended up making the "joke deck comment" myself.
If I play something that combos with sylvan library it will be either abundance or uba mask. I dismissed both as being too slow and situational and wouldn't play sylvan interaction that is weaker than those. Uba mask can do a lot on itself but in addition to being four mana that will be against what are supposed to be good match-ups and finding a spot main deck or sideboard is a nightmare. Also facing brainstorm it can backfire.

Regarding the eldrazi match-up I considered it a hard one at the beginning which is why I had ruinations sideboard. Now with 6 land destruction effects main (and lib to find them) + Titania that brings back wasteland while being an awesome clock I feel confident in the match-up.
Regarding the red (or any other shell with sol lands) comparision, as I said multiple times in the thread the real strengh of green is consistency thanks to sylvans and GSZs. Painter is a good deck which was my deck of choice before building this one, but the UR and burn match-ups aren't easy and that alone is a big problem in the online metagame as well as in the meta I expect for GP NJ.

Lejay
11-12-2014, 07:48 AM
Golgari Signet seems the worst slot, if you need some "ramp" which doesn't die to most removal you can try:
Sylvan Caryatid - Sure if Chalice/Trinisphere forms a lock, hexproof isn't needed, but a wall can block most legacy ground units and hexproof help to let it stay bolt, decay, swords etc. proof at any time, no matter if you have lockpieces. With Zenith you can tutor it if needed. Seems way better than Golgari Signet - but i am unsure, if this deck needs one more "ramp". Green brings various Ramp-Creatures for example: Sylvan Ranger, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder - all of them also love Courser of Kruphix ;)

If you fear (UR) Delver Swings you can also try: Penumbra Spider, even without any lockpieces, UR Delver can struggle against it - at the end it will buy some time to find other cards.

I hope the GBw Version will gain some good results, i love Siege Rhino here (but i think 3 seems more than enough).
I forgot to answer that post.
You have to consider the strengh of signets with ancient tomb whether with playing a turn one signet or turn 1 chalice and turn two Signet + a two mana slot.

Penumbra spider is a good suggestion but I've liked the job Stingerfling has done versus Sneak, D&T and even miracles. I'll keep it in mind in case at some point I only care about delvers with that slot.

bruizar
11-12-2014, 08:02 AM
Thanks for the explanation. I mainly wanted to check if you forgot about replacement effects or purposely dismissed the options (could have given more context in my post). You also have courser which interacts nicely with Sylvan Library in two ways (gaining life for extra cards and digging faster with lands on top). I did read the opening post where you addressed how GSZ and library reduce variance better than any other non-blue deck.

I haven't done any testing yet but courser looks like a MVP to me.

If you decide to keep the deck black/green (remove white) Wheel of Sun and Moon is an option over Rest in Peace (It has it's pro's and cons, but at least you don't get blown out by Transmute Artifact into Helm of Obedience). I think it's dangerous to run graveyard hate that opens you up to Helm of Obedience because there are quiet some decks that utilize this kill (mainly UW / Miracles type lists and Tezz). I doubt you'd board that card in against these match-ups, but I think we've all seen SCG coverage where helm of obedience was boarded in by graveyard dependent decks to fight graveyard hate. I think you can also force Imperial Painter to answer it because if you enchant yourself, the Grindstone combo will result in a draw.

GiveMeYourOil
11-12-2014, 08:11 AM
@ Lejay

Is the list on the first posting , the updated list ?

Thank you.

Lejay
11-12-2014, 08:20 AM
Not at all, I'll update the OP. If Qweerios presents an updated GBW decklist that gives him satisfaction I'll put it in the OP too.

Here is what I play with (maintenance on MTGO today, I'll do other things away from the computer) :

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [] Reclamation Sage
1 [] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
1 [CMD] Golgari Signet
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [R] Savannah
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge

I added a tower of the magistrate (which was already a consideration before) instead of a qasali. Like krosan grips it's an uncounterable answer to batterskul, though less definitive, that doubles as another land for match-ups where I side out ancient tombs.
The reason not to play it was of course Nemesis which made the card disappear from tables. However not only people have been playing less TNN lately (in general 2 in TNN decks and there are less TNN decks), but it also is an awesome card in the gold digger match-up. Since the deck is increasingly popular despite its difficulties versus burn and UR (from what I heard), that reason is enough to try it.
I guess no one tested dust bowl like I asked a few days ago ?

Barook
11-12-2014, 09:40 AM
I guess no one tested dust bowl like I asked a few days ago ?
I have two copies on MODO - in which slot would you run Dust Bowl?

I can do some testing, probably at the weekend (or lend them to you).

Lejay
11-12-2014, 10:17 AM
I have two copies on MODO - in which slot would you run Dust Bowl?

I can do some testing, probably at the weekend (or lend them to you).

It is not really on the agenda right now as I have to play with tower first and it was more interesting in a list with fewer wastelands.
But i'd like to see how it works at some point whether it is main or sb.

bruizar
11-12-2014, 10:25 AM
What is the purpose of Wasteland here? As a frequent MUD player I know from experience how painful it can be to be trapped under your own Trinisphere after popping a Wasteland (or tapped grim monolith without gas to untap it).

Ramp decks (Including any deck forfeiting one drops in exchange for sol lands and Chalice of the Void) want to ramp and cannot afford the loss of lands unless you run something like Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds. I would say that, considering you play with Choke, Rishadan Port is more attractive than Wasteland because it is reusable every turn. Deathrite Shaman feeds on Wasteland; I know that, and Courser of Kruphix offsets Wastelands negative effects by digging into more lands, but by this point you're also in turn 3. Wasteland could be a liability in the early game.

Rishadan Port makes Choke better when you don't have Trinisphere online, but perhaps Choke is already sufficiently strong against blue decks. Have you considered Rishadan Port at all, even as a one off (e.g. 3 wasteland, 1 rishadan port)?

Barook
11-12-2014, 10:43 AM
It is not really on the agenda right now as I have to play with tower first and it was more interesting in a list with fewer wastelands.
But i'd like to see how it works at some point whether it is main or sb.
I could definitely see Dust Bowl being a thing once you get your Coursers going.

In which matches do you board out the Tombs?

Maybe I missed in the pages before, but what is the reason to not run an Eternal Witness as GSZ target? I'm asking because I just remembered the sweet interaction between Stampeding Wildebeests and green CiP creatures. One could throw in Wood Elves, too, if necessary, but that might be overkill. Recycling Sage, Witness, Baloths/Rhinos or even Titania --> Wasteland sounds appealing, although it sucks without support, which might very well be the dealbreaker here.

GalaxyMonarch
11-12-2014, 12:51 PM
I found the same problems as you lejay when testing 4 rhinos/4 vindicates. The mana base was just too inconsistent, and Tomb felt incredibly awkward most of the time. I was also surprised how much I missed baloth. Still rhino was a great GSZ target, Vindicate was versatile, and I really wanted KotR for grabbing Karakas. Going to keep testing the small white splash with 2 savannah, 1 rhino/ 3 baloth split, 1 knight, and 2 vindicate in place of Spoil. Running 3 DRS to make sure I can access white, but mostly because it's been pretty great for me. Also if anyone was curious about Doran I found him pretty lackluster, and almost always preferred to grab Courser.

Creature 12
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Siege Rhino
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kalonian Hydra

Other 25
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

Land 23
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kichen Finks
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rest in Peace
2 Massacre
2 Rolling Spoil
2 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas

Lejay
11-12-2014, 06:08 PM
What is the purpose of Wasteland here? As a frequent MUD player I know from experience how painful it can be to be trapped under your own Trinisphere after popping a Wasteland (or tapped grim monolith without gas to untap it).

Ramp decks (Including any deck forfeiting one drops in exchange for sol lands and Chalice of the Void) want to ramp and cannot afford the loss of lands unless you run something like Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds. I would say that, considering you play with Choke, Rishadan Port is more attractive than Wasteland because it is reusable every turn. Deathrite Shaman feeds on Wasteland; I know that, and Courser of Kruphix offsets Wastelands negative effects by digging into more lands, but by this point you're also in turn 3. Wasteland could be a liability in the early game.

Rishadan Port makes Choke better when you don't have Trinisphere online, but perhaps Choke is already sufficiently strong against blue decks. Have you considered Rishadan Port at all, even as a one off (e.g. 3 wasteland, 1 rishadan port)?
Wasteland obviously has great synergy with trinisphere. However when I finally forced into getting wasteland#3 and #4 into the deck I found out that it's just the inherent power of wasteland or double wasteland in the opening that was so good. It was weird because I didn't remember that being as important from my shardless days (had 4). Maybe I kind of forgot how good it was, maybe the prison elements make it better, but since two friends of mine and some posts on this forum seem to have the same feeling I have another explanation. I think there are a lot of people not used to playing legacy that test for the GP and build and keep hands without worrying enough about wasteland. And that card punishes them hard for it. It is probably a sum of things anyway.

I feel the comparision with MUD is out of place. MUD has expensive spells and every land except possibly darksteel citadel is wastable. My deck has quite cheaper spells and tons of basics or ways to search for them + a versatile card that can either be business or ramp (GSZ). You also don't have to activate wasteland when you have it. In the two colors shell at least wasteland is good enough for mana.

In general if I have a hole in my curve with no 1-2 mana spells or see weakness from my opponent I'll use wasteland soon. But most of the time I play prison elements and only after that start wastelanding.

Rishadan port has been suggested at some point. I couldn't test it because of the price online but often asked myself if it would be better than wasteland after the suggestion has been made. I think it is inferior to wasteland's raw power from my observations. It might deserve better attention in the future though.


I could definitely see Dust Bowl being a thing once you get your Coursers going.

In which matches do you board out the Tombs?

Maybe I missed in the pages before, but what is the reason to not run an Eternal Witness as GSZ target? I'm asking because I just remembered the sweet interaction between Stampeding Wildebeests and green CiP creatures. One could throw in Wood Elves, too, if necessary, but that might be overkill. Recycling Sage, Witness, Baloths/Rhinos or even Titania --> Wasteland sounds appealing, although it sucks without support, which might very well be the dealbreaker here.
I sideboard out tombs versus burn and UR. It's worth considering those might be the most played decks at the GP (burn mainly due to not everyone having a legacy deck prior the GP) and that burn beats UR. That adds to making this deck very well positioned and having a plan to replace tombs important.

I didn't play witness because in addition to the usual lack of room, the deck didn't have enough utility for it to be excellent. I played it a few years ago in a bant GSZ deck and getting back either a stp, a wasteland, a brainstorm, a threat or a counter was awesome. Here there wasn't even enough wastelands to get back. Now that we have four the card is a bit better but taking more care of lands with 6 land destruction effects + titania seems more than enough.
It's probably testable but since it is slow with overall utility limited to small threats, lock pieces (that work well early) and decays, I don't think it will make the cut.
I considered Stampeding Wildebeests but yes the card can easily backfire. I didn't test so feel free to try but I think you have better things in the deck already.


I found the same problems as you lejay when testing 4 rhinos/4 vindicates. The mana base was just too inconsistent, and Tomb felt incredibly awkward most of the time. I was also surprised how much I missed baloth. Still rhino was a great GSZ target, Vindicate was versatile, and I really wanted KotR for grabbing Karakas. Going to keep testing the small white splash with 2 savannah, 1 rhino/ 3 baloth split, 1 knight, and 2 vindicate in place of Spoil. Running 3 DRS to make sure I can access white, but mostly because it's been pretty great for me. Also if anyone was curious about Doran I found him pretty lackluster, and almost always preferred to grab Courser.

Creature 12
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Siege Rhino
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kalonian Hydra

Other 25
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

Land 23
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kichen Finks
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rest in Peace
2 Massacre
2 Rolling Spoil
2 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
I would have appreciated justification on the non white changes you made since you started from my decklist. But I'll be the one asking questions/making some remarks. Playing 4 tombs (with no signet !) and no decent sb plan to replace them in this meta is asking for trouble. Titania is probably still the better slot even with just 3 wastelands. Against UR N°1 danger is delver so I don't think kitchen finks makes the sb slot. Thrun versus solifuge has already been explained even if I think Thrun in addition to solifuge can be justified. Rips are nice but not really faster than the lock pieces that make the job versus reanimator, ichorid and even storm, so playing faerie macabre helps for when you are slower than them.

Barook
11-12-2014, 06:52 PM
As far as the Gb build is concerned, I question the inclusion of Rolling Spoil as LD spell as choice.

On the one hand, killing a few X/1 has come up once against D&T so far, but other than that, it was just an overcosted Ice Storm. On the other, I wish it had been Bramblecrush multiple times so far to kill of the enemy Batterskull or Jace, which seem both to be rather problematic cards for this deck, at least pre-board. But to be fair, I haven't faced a UR Delver deck in testing yet. But as a sweeper, it seems rather slow and heavy-handed, despite its dual-functionality.

For the white splash, I'm going to settle with -1 Forest +1 Savannah, -1 Baloth +1 Rhino for now. That opens up a SB slot and gives me reach in form of Rhino, which drains them and tramples over chumpblockers. Still looking for the slot to test a single KotR.

Lejay
11-12-2014, 07:08 PM
UR is not just the most played deck. It is also well represented in the top tables. This week-end near Paris there was a 61 players tournament. Only 5-6 UR but 5 of them in the top8.
Another thing you may not have faced is true-name nemesis which is hard to deal with main board. So I would keep rolling spoil at the moment. However with one siege rhino in your list I can see a split of 1 bramblecrush 1 rolling spoil for you.

I am currently updating the OP post with some sideboard tables for common match-ups.

GalaxyMonarch
11-12-2014, 09:11 PM
I would have appreciated justification on the non white changes you made since you started from my decklist. But I'll be the one asking questions/making some remarks. Playing 4 tombs (with no signet !) and no decent sb plan to replace them in this meta is asking for trouble. Titania is probably still the better slot even with just 3 wastelands. Against UR N°1 danger is delver so I don't think kitchen finks makes the sb slot. Thrun versus solifuge has already been explained even if I think Thrun in addition to solifuge can be justified. Rips are nice but not really faster than the lock pieces that make the job versus reanimator, ichorid and even storm, so playing faerie macabre helps for when you are slower than them.

Yeah I'm pretty new to legacy, was recently a modern player, should have clarified that. Wasn't trying to give bad advice or anything just agreeing that 4 rhino felt bad when I tried it. I'll try to stick to something closer to your list until I understand the format better. I probably let the brewer in me come out a little too much lol. Again sorry if I was coming off as trying to give advice or that my list was having good results.

Lejay
11-13-2014, 08:36 AM
I like how pros tell in various article to mostly metagame for the mirror.But it's even better than that now :laugh:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-best-deck-in-legacy-and-modern/
Advice is no daze 3 force main. If pros/people listen to that point of view the path will be even more wide opened for this deck, and I would really don't care about that 3rd smash to smithereens.

I updated the OP with some rules you should know playing the deck.

Redkid43
11-13-2014, 11:54 AM
Nice feature on SCG today LeJay!

Although, Gerry's snide comment about how "Rolling Spoil might be going a little too deep" was somewhat unneeded.

How as Titania been treating you over Kalonian Hydra?

TopWizard
11-13-2014, 12:39 PM
Nice feature on SCG today LeJay!

Link for the lazy: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29728_Daily-Digest-I-Hope-You-Choke.html

Nekrataal
11-13-2014, 03:17 PM
Funny how things turn out. I was just about to make a post in the Mono Green Chalice Aggro Deck Thread because of two new cards Titania and Song of the Dryads when I skipped to browsing over what's new first. I have been playing Mono Green Chalice way back and was thinking that the new cards might help. I had a feeling that the deck in the current U painted metagame of TC could be a viable choice again. However I directly realized D&T and especially Elves would be a pain. While I was thinking that and skipping over a few new threads I saw this one and I am blown off my feet. Adding B is daring but if it works (which seems to be the case) addresses the D&T and Elves problem well. I just browsed through the answers for now ... but it will kill my beloved Miracles ... anyhow loosing NO is probably right but ...

I was wondering why Garruk has been dropped as well?

/EDIT/ Found 3 Roiling Spoils among my 10K green crap spells after 15 minutes of digging =) /EDIT/

Barook
11-13-2014, 04:15 PM
Since I run 1 Savannah main, I have used the freed up SB slot for a second Karakas. Works nice for me so far.

One of the more funky interactions I just noticed in testing is that you can bounce Titania to recur more lands if necessary. Not exactly mana-effective, but nice value if you don't have to fear counterspells since you get more 5/3s in the process.

dave8
11-13-2014, 05:54 PM
During prague eternal I've been playing 2 Engineered Plagues main instead of Rolling Spoil.
I've found it very very good.

Lejay
11-13-2014, 06:34 PM
How as Titania been treating you over Kalonian Hydra?
Still probably more powerful than hydra and I still run the combo in the sideboard to help versus elves and creature match-ups based on the combat phase. In those I am happy to side in more creatures and a combo that dominates combat is a very sweet plan.


I was wondering why Garruk has been dropped as well?
Green walkers don't bring much as they are non creature threats but still produce creatures, so that doesn't solve most problems you generally want walkers for. There is also a lack of room, as you can notice there aren't tha many creatures in the deck that is a GSZ deck. I don't want to go below what I have now.


During prague eternal I've been playing 2 Engineered Plagues main instead of Rolling Spoil.
I've found it very very good.
That's probably another demonstration of why rolling spoil is so good in the deck. If that is a suggestion to replace RS though, I'd rather answer immediatly multiple creature types than futures extra copies (so let's say deluge first), and the land destruction part is awesome in this deck.

Barook
11-13-2014, 08:08 PM
I'm testing one KotR in the MD as GSZ target now by moving one 3sphere to the board. Only got him into play once so far, but when I did, he was a workhorse because

a) he kept the opposing Tarmogoyf at bay
b) kept him at minimal mana to prevent him from doing anything fancy under Trinisphere and
c) shuffled the junk away with Library.

I'll keep testing KotR.

Mr.Todd
11-13-2014, 09:08 PM
I tested the deck and I removed obstinate baloth for a stone forge mystic, batter skull, and umezawa's jitte package. I'm liking this more as well as the slots freed up from relying on green sun zenith.

Barook
11-13-2014, 09:22 PM
I tested the deck and I removed obstinate baloth for a stone forge mystic, batter skull, and umezawa's jitte package. I'm liking this more as well as the slots freed up from relying on green sun zenith.
SFM is strong and all, but I can't see it fit into the current iteration of the build.

Lejay
11-13-2014, 09:44 PM
What I like in Baloth is that it's easy to cast and has an immediate impact on the board+life total. The resistance to discard is nice but it's more of a bonus.
Sfm does neither impact the board to block early agression nor helps having a good mana base since it forces you to run 3 colors with tombs and wastelands. There is no point in playing sfm turn 2 to have it bolted. You just play your prison elements first 90% of the time so a 4 mana creature is completely fine.

Also GSZ is awesome in this deck as always, but specifically it fills your one mana curve without being hit by chalice and without being a weak draw late game. Therefore running away from an optmized GSZ package is a big mistake imo.

Lord_Mcdonalds
11-13-2014, 11:48 PM
Unless I missed it in the primer or in the preceding pages but isn't chalice and drs something of a nonbo, the deck is sweet but I feel like I'm missing something

Waikiki
11-14-2014, 01:51 AM
Nice to see the old school players still brewing away! Great construction Lejay, well done!

Would be nice to see a skilled player be able to pick it up and play it at the GP.

ESG
11-14-2014, 02:09 AM
Unless I missed it in the primer or in the preceding pages but isn't chalice and drs something of a nonbo, the deck is sweet but I feel like I'm missing something

Yeah, you missed it. It's there. I'll save Lejay the hassle:

"Running them alongside chalices will probably the most controversial and debated choice in this deck. What if you draw them with a chalice at one on the table ? Well first drawing a mox or an elvish spirit guide won’t do a lot either in general. And second with the chalice in play you should be in a great shape. Being able to play your key lock elements daze proof or one turn earlier without losing cards is a great thing. Even when your opponent kills your turn one deathrite shaman with a bolt before you play turn two chalice you should be happy to screw his turn one or two by forcing his play. If you didn’t play shaman maybe he would have a delver in play or maybe the cantrip he would have played would have granted him some free countermagic for chalice. For people still planning on testing with turn 0 accels my last configuration before shamans was 2 chrome mox, 2 ESG, 2 gemstone caverns. That split limits the disadvantages of each and caverns are nice to have with courser. I maintain that running a few deathrites is the best choice though."

TrevaBlues
11-14-2014, 03:08 AM
I watched your replays from this past evening's Legacy Daily and Titania looked so fun to resolve. Return Wasteland... waste... get a creature. good luck Miracles guy
I definitely am glad to see you on 4 Wasteland

Neffy
11-14-2014, 04:16 AM
I watched your replays from this past evening's Legacy Daily and Titania looked so fun to resolve. Return Wasteland... waste... get a creature. good luck Miracles guy
I definitely am glad to see you on 4 Wasteland

That sounds cool. Care to share a link for that? :)

As for the land base of the deck, I think I saw someone mentioned horizon canopy shortly at some point. Would this be good to use? Its a nice card and not a dead draw late game and can be used in BG and 3 color deck variants?

Darklingske
11-14-2014, 04:18 AM
Yesterday I've tested against UR delver and found the games post board pretty hard and even slightly in his favor. I didn't draw great and he did, but still. Maybe it's because I'm to greedy? What do you guys do if you open a hand with Tomb, Fetch, Waste, Chalice, Trini, Courser? It seemed that every time I tried to T1 Chalice for 1, I got dazed or Fow'ed. What would you do? Jam the Chalice T1 or wait T2 to be daze-proof? Or rather T1 Chalice (be it countered or not) and T2 Trini? Or delay all action for the T2 Chalice & T3 Trini? Curious to know your choises and why! Thanks!

Nekrataal
11-14-2014, 05:27 AM
Green walkers don't bring much as they are non creature threats but still produce creatures, so that doesn't solve most problems you generally want walkers for. There is also a lack of room, as you can notice there aren't tha many creatures in the deck that is a GSZ deck. I don't want to go below what I have now.


I agree having read through the complete thread now. Garruk has been good in the past to ramp into the bigger monster (sometimes to have reliable GG) and as means against control. Both is unnecessary as there are no biggies anymore and the U (control) matchup should be good already.

I understand that B is the most valuable addition to deal with decks like Elves or D&T but W has been proposed as well and adds value to the deck. I am almost sure you already considered going down the road with Mox Diamond supporting a 3 color manabase? Thus you could still support CotV without Stompy Lands. All in all the deck would shift into a hybrid with something like Gbw Loam. Do you think that is a path worth exploring (of course without losing the identity of the deck)?

Deviruchi
11-14-2014, 08:21 AM
Although, Gerry's snide comment about how "Rolling Spoil might be going a little too deep" was somewhat unneeded.

I have found this card to be important in certain matchups to nuke non-island land or even as an option to wipe tokens/elves. I also had a pleasure to cast it to remove 2 TNN and attack for the win. Unforgettable experience.

I spent a few hours in the last two days testing this and I have to say I've never been happier to see my opponent go: land + sdt. I tested only the newest list from modo with 4 wasteland. They are very useful, I almost want to insert 1 Crucible or LftL. I'm ok with Baloth, solid beater with very important life gain. Titania + Wasteland blowing own land is absurd. Garruk 1.0 would be nice as a singleton. Sometimes I can't brake through blockers in time and G's ultimate would be huge.

Nice deck, very metagamed. I hope someone will use it get top place somewhere in a big tournament.

Lejay
11-14-2014, 11:32 AM
That sounds cool. Care to share a link for that? :)

As for the land base of the deck, I think I saw someone mentioned horizon canopy shortly at some point. Would this be good to use? Its a nice card and not a dead draw late game and can be used in BG and 3 color deck variants?
He was talking about replays on MTGO. They are available a limited amount of time.

Yesterday I've tested against UR delver and found the games post board pretty hard and even slightly in his favor. I didn't draw great and he did, but still. Maybe it's because I'm to greedy? What do you guys do if you open a hand with Tomb, Fetch, Waste, Chalice, Trini, Courser? It seemed that every time I tried to T1 Chalice for 1, I got dazed or Fow'ed. What would you do? Jam the Chalice T1 or wait T2 to be daze-proof? Or rather T1 Chalice (be it countered or not) and T2 Trini? Or delay all action for the T2 Chalice & T3 Trini? Curious to know your choises and why! Thanks!
I think if both players would be able to choose their draws UR would beat this deck, but that would be true for a lot of UR vs X. That's the power of delver decks and this one is the most agressive. From my experience match-up is still clearly favourable. You'll probably get better at the match-up and see they don't always have delver T1 + 3-4 counters.
For the hand you describe I wouldn't play around daze. If chalice gets hit trini will do a great job and you can easily curve other prison elements by drawing them. With a little practice you should recognize situations when you can play around daze, and having played against delver decks with other decks a lot helps. The easy summarize is play around daze when you can afford to. That's not very descriptive but being descriptive would end up in an entire article about that.


I agree having read through the complete thread now. Garruk has been good in the past to ramp into the bigger monster (sometimes to have reliable GG) and as means against control. Both is unnecessary as there are no biggies anymore and the U (control) matchup should be good already.

I understand that B is the most valuable addition to deal with decks like Elves or D&T but W has been proposed as well and adds value to the deck. I am almost sure you already considered going down the road with Mox Diamond supporting a 3 color manabase? Thus you could still support CotV without Stompy Lands. All in all the deck would shift into a hybrid with something like Gbw Loam. Do you think that is a path worth exploring (of course without losing the identity of the deck)?
I tried avoiding black for a while. The by far N°1 reason we are forced into playing removal (decay) x4 main deck in a prison deck is delver. Without decays you'd lose too many games against a locked opponent who just resolved a turn 1-2 delver and ride it to victory because life gain wouldn't be enough if you spent your early turns trinisphering and choking them.
That said I don't regret black at all. Decay is versatile, rolling spoil is awesome, and sideboard options are very strong.


I have found this card to be important in certain matchups to nuke non-island land or even as an option to wipe tokens/elves. I also had a pleasure to cast it to remove 2 TNN and attack for the win. Unforgettable experience.

I spent a few hours in the last two days testing this and I have to say I've never been happier to see my opponent go: land + sdt. I tested only the newest list from modo with 4 wasteland. They are very useful, I almost want to insert 1 Crucible or LftL. I'm ok with Baloth, solid beater with very important life gain. Titania + Wasteland blowing own land is absurd. Garruk 1.0 would be nice as a singleton. Sometimes I can't brake through blockers in time and G's ultimate would be huge.

Nice deck, very metagamed. I hope someone will use it get top place somewhere in a big tournament.
What you want with garruk's ultimate was kalonian hydra's job. I think rolling spoil and Titania will get you through most situations, and when in a match-up where it could not be enough, sb spike and hydra will do it very well together.

Neffy
11-14-2014, 11:40 AM
He was talking about replays on MTGO. They are available a limited amount of time.


So its already gone? Otherwise please post a link if you have one. Thank you!

Holly
11-14-2014, 11:49 AM
So its already gone? Otherwise please post a link if you have one. Thank you!

There is no link, you have to start MODO yourself and watch it there.

Lejay
11-14-2014, 12:10 PM
I just went 1-2 drop in a daily, long time it didn't go this bad. I lost round 2 versus a friend with chalice soldiers (should be an unfavourable match-up even if that's the first time in three matches he wins) and I lost round 3 to UR. He stole a next turn locked game 1 on an exactly lethal PoP +swiftspear (had choke in play and decay/GSZ for next turn). The reason I post about this is that in G3 I regretted not having that bassara tower archer (or at least matsu-tribe sniper) to look for with GSZ since my mulliganed hand (with dryad so almost a 5) had to play around daze the whole game. We all know it's pretty specific but with this much delver and especially UR delvers it may be right to put it back for the GP cutting sb savannah and playing it main.
On the other hand it's a good idea to remember I lost G1 to PoP (no fetch and dryad-tomb-bayoux2) so cutting the forest will certainly have some impact. Other people certainly played more than me with that one savannah for a light white splash so I'd like to hear opinions on how it was instead of a forest (possibly a fetch, I don't think we should cut a wasteland).

bruizar
11-14-2014, 01:43 PM
If Price of Progress becomes a persistent problem you could try Elsewhere Flask in the sideboard.

Lejay
11-14-2014, 01:55 PM
PoP isn't a problem at all. It was just being concerned about not weakening the manabase in general. This game 1 was quite particular as it was unlucky to have no way to play around the unexpected PoP with these draws and it was likely his only out.
In general if I want to handle specific things I'd look at tutorable cards first. For example for PoP it would be sylvan safekeeper. It protects well gaddock and should be really fun with Titania.
I had Safekeeper on my mind for some time but think its one cmc is too much of a liability compared to protecting teeg with a second GSZ, and that Titania should win the game alone anyway if I have her in play.

H
11-14-2014, 01:58 PM
If Price of Progress becomes a persistent problem you could try Elsewhere Flask in the sideboard.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work the way you want it to. Your non-basics are still non-basic regardless of their type.

Lejay
11-14-2014, 05:00 PM
Posted on twitter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2bk4xWIUAEN1DE.jpg

apple713
11-14-2014, 06:17 PM
Posted on twitter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2bk4xWIUAEN1DE.jpg

?

TopWizard
11-14-2014, 06:53 PM
Baiting your delver opponent into dazing before you've played your land sometimes feels so so good!
http://i.imgur.com/ClbicfG.png

Lejay
11-14-2014, 07:01 PM
@Topwizard : nice one

@apple713 : that means we can suppose cotv strategies will be big unless SCG had a very small stock of the card.

Ricflairwoo
11-15-2014, 01:30 AM
@Topwizard : nice one

@apple713 : that means we can suppose cotv strategies will be big unless SCG had a very small stock of the card.


It wasn't out at the other vendors. I played with the deck in a grinder and lost in the finals. R1 Miracles, R2 omnitell r3 maverick, r4 storm r5 I lost to maverick. I had my opponent in r3 locked up with hydra/weaver, he had a maze and a thrun..my hydra ended up being a 512/512 and weaver was 248/248. Overall the deck felt great, rolling(eyes) spoils was crucial in all match ups. It's unreal against storm sometimes, especially when you get chalice 0...alot of times they try and power out a big empty, and you blow them out with it. Walking around I saw alot of reanimator, ur delver(many with vents), storm, burn, and Miracles. I think the default 'don't have a legacy deck' will be u/r delver with/steam vents and burn.

Gl to everyone bringing this to battle tomorrow! Wooooooo

Memories of the Time
11-15-2014, 08:06 AM
Gl to everyone bringing this to battle tomorrow! Wooooooo

Agree
I'm still testing with my list and discussing with my teammates: can't part with Rhino, too efficient against many thing that block Baloth, as said.
Now i'm trying this manabase:

2 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dust Bowl
2 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Savannah/2 +1 scrubland?
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Chrome Mox

I've found DRS a good g1 card, but post side i want Deluge/Massacre very bad and Chrome Mox could be a solution between Tomb and Shaman. It has many downsides, of course, like being horrible under trini, Card Disadvantage and not being a land with Titania/Courser. Just a try, i could re-swap with +1 Tomb +1 Drs in any moment. I'm in love with Dust Bowl since Landstill time, and in this deck it's perfect: dunno if 2 Dust/1 Wasta coul be better, since we often want to waste oppo after the first 3 turn, unless we have started with Trinisphere and we have something on board... I think that going up to 8 colorless land is too much even for Bg shell. Karakas is a necessary evil, i'm very worried about S&T MU. Only love for Courser, a card that i always want on Battlefield...
I've never fallen on Color Screw (just like... 1 game?), while many defeats are because of screw/flood. This is the other part of the list btw

The Core= 24
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Rolling Spoil

1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze (very good in my field, and in the whole metagame i think)

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Massacre/3° Deluge
SB: 1 Vindicate

Lejay
11-15-2014, 10:03 AM
It wasn't out at the other vendors.
I thought SCG would have kept exclusivity over this GP since they organize it.
Good luck to all.

Jon
11-15-2014, 10:07 AM
They cannot do that as it is a WOTC event.

menace13
11-15-2014, 10:31 AM
Baiting your delver opponent into dazing before you've played your land sometimes feels so so good!

How did you win that game? Looks like you were at 12 life or 9( if he bolted once). You played Tabernacle. Opponent untaps and loses all but 1 Pyromancer. Puts you to 10 or 7. You untapped and Wasteland+trini putting yourself to 8 or 5? Or baloth gets your life total to 10 or 7 and you stabilize from there?

Lejay
11-15-2014, 09:17 PM
I played with the deck in a grinder and lost in the finals. R1 Miracles, R2 omnitell r3 maverick, r4 storm r5 I lost to maverick.
It's too bad RicFlairWoo lost that final match for byes. Apparently his bad start put him in a difficult bracket with this metagamed deck.

MGB
11-16-2014, 08:06 PM
Played this at GP NJ. Unfortunately, I could not secure byes and had to face some very unfavorable matchups (Burn, MUD, Mono Red Sneak Attack) early on that cause me to go 2-3 right out of the gate. This is the kind of deck that needs to be played at a homogenous metagame invitational-level tournament, or at the very least needs to be played by someone with 3+ byes at a tournament as diverse as a Grand Prix.

Lejay
11-16-2014, 08:40 PM
Played this at GP NJ. Unfortunately, I could not secure byes and had to face some very unfavorable matchups (Burn, MUD, Mono Red Sneak Attack) early on that cause me to go 2-3 right out of the gate. This is the kind of deck that needs to be played at a homogenous metagame invitational-level tournament, or at the very least needs to be played by someone with 3+ byes at a tournament as diverse as a Grand Prix.
While I agree with the general message to some extent and that this deck is clearly less likely to put an average performance than most decks, I think your examples aren't the best and particularly burn as I consider it the best match-up of the deck, and believe me I faced a lot of these online.
I won't say a lot on monored sneak as I faced it only twice. 1 win 1 loss in close matches.
MUD was probably a bad match-up with first lists. But having 6 land destruction effects and ways to find them should really change things.

I didn't play at all this week-end so any additionnal feedback from you or anyone else will be welcomed, so that I can work further on the list.

Barook
11-16-2014, 10:50 PM
I didn't play at all this week-end so any additionnal feedback from you or anyone else will be welcomed, so that I can work further on the list.
To improve the deck, I would look at two things:

a) Against what cards/decks does the deck have problems? Why? And what are possible solutions?
b) How to further increase consistency?

As far as b) is concerned, how about Living Wish? Your sideboard already has a huge array of one-ofs in form of creatures and lands that can all be fetched via Living Wish.

I don't know if Living Wish is too slow and how it can fit into the shell since cuts are already hard enough, but it would certainly open up an interesting perspective since you gain alot more options against various decks, starting G1.

Siding in cards removes them as wish targets, though, so there's that.

Lejay
11-17-2014, 01:03 AM
It's hard to define your "a". I solved most problems and those remaining are either decks that will beat us structurally like deed decks, bad match-ups against which there is no worthy improving card by itself like combo lands, or favourable match-ups that are not complete byes. I think the deck will only slowly evolve from now on (and since GP is away now I will probably test the deck less).
About your "b", increasing consistency is certainly something I have in mind as not needed but that would be appreciated. I don't have a proposition yet and I have already thought about living wish once the sideboard started to look like a wish board. But I dismissed the idea because of the tempo issue mainly + also the fact that those wishes wouldn't be as powerful as they should for a legacy deck. If you play this deck enough you'll notice there are often games when you don't have time for this kind of card. Sometimes you even don't have time anymore to play trinispheres before immediate business.

Tibalt
11-17-2014, 11:02 AM
I day 2ed with Lejay's list at the gp jersey. I will post a report later on today when I have more time. A few notes/questions I had after playing it was if there was a better answer to goyf when it came out of bug delver it caused an issue if I already had to use a decay on delver. If anyone has any advice on that and also I feel knight could be in the board as it could search up the utility lands quickly and provide a big threat against d and t. Although d and t was basically a bye after side board and I even stole a game 1 with 2 chokes in hand.

Barook
11-17-2014, 05:29 PM
Lejay, how happy have you been with bringing in Massacre against non-Plains opponents? Because it keeps being stuck in my hand and the double black isn't easy to get when you have to actually cast it.

Lejay
11-17-2014, 05:37 PM
I played with 2-3 pyroclasm/firespout for a while in addition to anti-nemesis tools. Best overall configuration of the sideboard I could find was just to remove those and use massacres versus elves/UR.
I do think they are good enough most of the times but with more slots available I would probably upgrade by playing more suited mass removals again.

Tibalt
11-18-2014, 02:14 AM
Well I messed up and typed a long report to only have it dissapear on me when I tried to submit it. So here is the condensed version.
Day 1: 7-2
Bye
Sneak and show:Win
Burn: Lose to bad keep of a hand game 1 assuming a guy who looked very into magic with a team hoodie was on a blue deck. Misplayed game 2
Jeskai Stoneblade: Win
Jeskai Standstill: Win
D&T : Win
Storm: Lose
Belcher: Win
D&T: Win

Day 2:
RUG Delver: Lose - win game 1 and proced to lose games 2 and 3 to a turn 1 delver and blind flip on his next turn revealing ancient grudge. Followed by forces to back up the delver and me not drawing abrupt decays
Jeskai Stone blade: Win game 1, Lose game 3 to him swinging 5 times with a stoneforge with no equipment and me drawing no outs to it with sylvan library in play
Merfolk: I mess up and when he is on a mull to 5 on the play he plays wasteland,mutavalt,chalice on 1 and I let him talk me into thinking he is playing stax and I butcher the sideboard and lose to true names game 2 followed by game 3 losing to 3 forces combined with pressure.
Bug Delver: Lose - I forget the actual details but I win game 1 and lose to goyfs and force of wills games 2 and 3... I see only 1 decay in both games 2 and 3.

Overall the deck was great and the side board plans was amazing I went with this list:

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Golgari Signet
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Karakas
2 Massacre
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Savannah
1 Thragtusk
1 Spike Weaver
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Toxic Deluge

Lejay has done a great job with the deck and I used all of his sideboarding strategies to great success. If I had had more practice I feel I would have easily x_2ed. I had not played a game with the deck till my first round in the gp. I will say the thragtusk should just be a scavanging ooze as it would help greatly with tarmagoyfs and is a descent threat that can be gsz for early in the game. I want to fit knight in the board somewhere to be able to search for the tower of magistrate with as that card is insane right now with all the stoneforge decks going around. Also knight can get big enough to block a goyf which is good as when my baloths start chump blocking I started to lose. I will play this deck this weekend at scg richmond and appreciate any feed back I can get as I prepare more for this weekend by actually playing games with the deck before hand.

Darklingske
11-18-2014, 07:06 AM
Played a small tourney (21 players) this sunday. Lots of fun, not so good results...
R1 Reanimator.
I mull to 6 (opener had 4 land, courser, baloth, spoils) and he opens with careful binning elesh & Iona. I open with Bayou, GSZ for Dryad. T2 reanimate Elesh and start the beatings. I just draw, but we don't have a out MD, so onwards to G2.
G2 I open with Chalice on 1 and follow up with a Trini.
G3 he has T1 Grisel. Not a lot to do against it.

R2 Storm
G1 he miscounts T1 and easy cruising from there on for me.
G2 we are both flooded, but my T2 Library reveals me double chalice on T3. Jups, GG it is.

R3 against UR-delver
G1 fast beatings bring me to 5 life, after wich a spoils clears his board and double baloth wins the race.
G2 the same.

R4 against MUD
Just a horrible MU. G1 he has T2 Forgemaster, into T4 Sundering Titan, T5 Hellkite.
G2 I try to restrain his mana, but eventually he lands a Forgemaster and the turn after he masters Blightsteel.

R5 against BUGdelver.
Mull to 5 doesn't help, but I try to stem the bleeding, but Goyf beats me into a pulp.
G2 again mull to 6 and a fast delver followed by a goyf and a liliana is to much too fast.

It really was a lot of fun playing this, but the MU were a bit sad.

Memories of the Time
11-18-2014, 07:54 AM
With the spread of YP, i find Baloth even less incisive as tank, counting that it still loses against Batterskull and Tarmogoyf (and Nemesi). And this is very bad, because Rhino is way better but its cc doesn't allow me to play a nice manabase... seems a very sad choice to me.

FoolofaTook
11-18-2014, 09:09 AM
@Tibalt

You went 0-4 day 2 against 4 lists that all play primarily Islands.

If that can happen how can Choke be a good main list card?

Michael Keller
11-18-2014, 11:09 AM
@Tibalt

You went 0-4 day 2 against 4 lists that all play primarily Islands.

If that can happen how can Choke be a good main list card?

Picking up all the cards for this deck; I miss Mono Green [Chalice] so much.

Has anyone looked at Caltrops as an option? This card seems blasphemously underrated at the moment. I'm currently testing a list without Choke main, although I am most definitely trying it out of the board.

Tibalt
11-18-2014, 11:20 AM
@Tibalt

You went 0-4 day 2 against 4 lists that all play primarily Islands.

If that can happen how can Choke be a good main list card?

My day 2 was odd. Choke main is amazing and I had it in play in most games not to mention I won game 1 on 3 of those 4 matches. I would not cut it, also I chose to get food and a drink after day 1 and did not get to sleep till 230 and woke up at 7. My day 2 just showed my inexperience with the deck and lack of sleep mostly.

FoolofaTook
11-18-2014, 11:21 AM
Somebody has to explain how a list with this little removal and no hand disruption actually works in a real metagame. I see great raw power and soft locks all over the place and not enough answers for Delver, DRS, Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer and any creature that actually lands early and makes a big impact.

It looks like a great list against blue control and a random list against blue aggro control. Do you have to draw 2 Abrupt Decay to not auto-lose to good blue aggro control?

Secondarily, Chalice@1 is a great play turn 1 but there are only 3 ways to do that in the list not the usual 8. Turn 2 Trinisphere with a Wasteland is a wonderful package but again there aren't many ways to get that done.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: "how do you live until turn 3 when your plan will come to fruition most of the time?"

FoolofaTook
11-18-2014, 11:24 AM
My day 2 was odd. Choke main is amazing and I had it in play in most games not to mention I won game 1 on 3 of those 4 matches. I would not cut it, also I chose to get food and a drink after day 1 and did not get to sleep till 230 and woke up at 7. My day 2 just showed my inexperience with the deck and lack of sleep mostly.

No disrespect intended at all in my earlier post. I very much admire pilots who will play something like this with conviction. It's my choice too when it's possible, which is very rare.

What worked and didn't work in terms of the matches you won and lost?

Did you go into the negative often when your first locking play was forced?

How did you manage creature or counter overloads from the blue shell?

Edit: Just to followup on the earlier question about Choke, if you had it in play often day 2 and still went 0-4 against Islanders doesn't that suggest that it isn't a kill card against them as often as it should be?

My experience with locking lists of this type is that it is the bleeders, the creatures and spells that get in around the edge of an imperfect lock that beat me. Choke doesn't cause Islands to come into play tapped, it just prevents them from untapping. Most Legacy lists can play off of 1 or 2 mana if all they have to do is get one thing done and they win. In that situation with 4 Abrupt Decay as your only removal you're going to get killed by Delvers more often than you'd like. The creatures in the list can't block them and other than Abrupt Decay you have no way to deal with them.

Most of the time the problem with a locking list is that it has overkill on the lock and the removal and too few win-cons so it is inconsistent on that basis. This list appears to have overkill on the lock, albeit slowly, overkill on the threats (including GSZ) and not enough removal to avoid the bleeding damage.

maharis
11-18-2014, 11:25 AM
Picking up all the cards for this deck; I miss Mono Green [Chalice] so much.

Has anyone looked at Caltrops as an option? This card seems blasphemously underrated at the moment. I'm currently testing a list without Choke main, although I am most definitely trying it out of the board.

I think Roiling Spoil does everything we'd want Caltrops to do, plus kills TNN. But Caltrops + Fungusaur or Rite of Passage wouldn't be the worst cute synergy in this deck.

Michael Keller
11-18-2014, 04:41 PM
I think Roiling Spoil does everything we'd want Caltrops to do, plus kills TNN. But Caltrops + Fungusaur or Rite of Passage wouldn't be the worst cute synergy in this deck.

Caltrops is a permanent with a static effect that shuts down most of these decks dependent on one-toughness creatures. I know R.S. is used to wipe out True-Name Nemesis, and I'm going to be playing at least two. But Caltrops is a card that shuts down decks like Death and Taxes, Young Pyromancer, Empty the Warrens as a win condition for one mana cheaper with no color requirements. I just see it out of the board as a powerful ability that shuts down decks ill-equipped to deal with it early on.

I harken back to the Mono Green Chalice Aggro deck I had success with a few years back. That variation had acceleration also in the form of Elvish Spirit Guide, which I really like. If I were to roll with a list that acts as a hybrid between this one and the one I played several years ago, it would look something like this:

[4x] Chalice of the Void
[3x] Trinisphere

[4x] Abrupt Decay
[2x] Rolling Spoil

[3x] Sylvan Library
[1x] Bow of Nylea

[3x] Natural Order
[3x] Green Sun's Zenith

[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[2x] Deathrite Shaman

[4x] Obstinate Baloth
[2x] Courser of Kruphix
[1x] Progenitus
[1x] Titania, Protector of Argoth
[1x] Acidic Slime
[1x] Reclamation Sage
[1x] Empyrial Archangel

[5x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Verdant Catacombs
[3x] Bayou
[3x] Windswept Heath
[1x] Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
[2x] Tormod's Crypt
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Primal Order
[2x] Choke
[2x] Caltrops
[2x] Krosan Grip
[1x] Toxic Deluge
[1x] Gaea's Blessing
[1x] Trinisphere

Something close to what I would play.

bruizar
11-18-2014, 04:56 PM
T1 DRS, T2 Ancient Tomb Natural Order Progenitus looks hot.

Barook
11-18-2014, 05:37 PM
T1 DRS, T2 Ancient Tomb Natural Order Progenitus looks hot.
That's Magical Christmas Land.

The MD looks pretty interesting. The SB - not so much.

I'm giving it a spin and see how it goes compared to Lejay's list. I like Elderscale Wurm more than Archangel, though.

Deviruchi
11-18-2014, 06:12 PM
Caltrops is card I thought about but chose Thunderstaff. I switched 2 Fearie Macabre for them as in 4 days of testing this deck I haven't sided in Fearies even once. From the standard days of the past I remember Sun Droplet but it's probably too cute. Now I'm happy with 2 Thunderstaffs to buy time vs UR(x) decks.

Ideas I'm working on:

a) Finding room for the 2nd Reclamation Sage in the 75.
b) Finding room for Krosan Grip vs Batterskull decks.
c) Trying to fit a Mountain&Pyroclasm combo.

Deck is a blast. I've never have higher percentage of rage quits and flood of insults.

TraxDaMax
11-18-2014, 06:52 PM
Played a small tourney (21 players) this sunday. Lots of fun, not so good results...
R1 Reanimator.
I mull to 6 (opener had 4 land, courser, baloth, spoils) and he opens with careful binning elesh & Iona. I open with Bayou, GSZ for Dryad. T2 reanimate Elesh and start the beatings. I just draw, but we don't have a out MD, so onwards to G2.
G2 I open with Chalice on 1 and follow up with a Trini.
G3 he has T1 Grisel. Not a lot to do against it.

R2 Storm
G1 he miscounts T1 and easy cruising from there on for me.
G2 we are both flooded, but my T2 Library reveals me double chalice on T3. Jups, GG it is.

R3 against UR-delver
G1 fast beatings bring me to 5 life, after wich a spoils clears his board and double baloth wins the race.
G2 the same.

R4 against MUD
Just a horrible MU. G1 he has T2 Forgemaster, into T4 Sundering Titan, T5 Hellkite.
G2 I try to restrain his mana, but eventually he lands a Forgemaster and the turn after he masters Blightsteel.

R5 against BUGdelver.
Mull to 5 doesn't help, but I try to stem the bleeding, but Goyf beats me into a pulp.
G2 again mull to 6 and a fast delver followed by a goyf and a liliana is to much too fast.

It really was a lot of fun playing this, but the MU were a bit sad.
Heh, How could I not have thought you would also be interested in this deck :D
It sure looks like fun. Well, for the one playing it atleast...

Michael Keller
11-18-2014, 09:41 PM
Small sample size thus far, but I just creamed Miracles and Patriot with this deck in two sets each.

Michael Keller
11-18-2014, 11:41 PM
The SB - not so much.

Could you elaborate?

Barook
11-19-2014, 07:05 AM
I'm not sold on cutting the Wastelands for ESG. The addition of Wasteland was probably one of the better additions the archetype.

I jammed some games yesterday, using Lejay's list as base (since I currently don't have ESG and don't feel like buying a playset):

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland

2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Progenitus

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Rolling Spoil

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Spike Weaver
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Karakas
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Massacre
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trinisphere

Cutting Choke for the NO package is definitely a massive shift - while Choke is good against blue decks, NO kinda sucks against free counters. I'm not sure how to feel about it, since either package is dead in certain match-ups, but I can see the appeal in certain match-ups where NO basically autowins. Elderscale Wurm is definitely better than Archangel, who says "Find a way to deal with me or you won't be able to win with damage!".

If I take a liking in that version of the list, SB changes are necessary.


Could you elaborate?
I overall like Lejay's sideboard plan so far, although it lacks proper answers against Jace and Batterskull.

While I'm not entirely sure about MD Choke anymore, I would try to run at least 3 in the board. They can be still game-winning pieces against blue decks.

What's the Gaea's Blessing for? And I don't see the point of Primal Order, since it seems pretty underwhelming for what it does.

What's your board plan vs. Sneak and Show? Currently, you're completely cold to it.

MGB
11-19-2014, 07:31 AM
Question: Could you incorporate River Boa into this deck somehow? Seems like a solid 2-drop vs. most blue decks...


Also, why not more Thragtusks? Seems mostly better than the other big beasts available to this deck.

bruizar
11-19-2014, 07:40 AM
Caltrops is card I thought about but chose Thunderstaff. I switched 2 Fearie Macabre for them as in 4 days of testing this deck I haven't sided in Fearies even once. From the standard days of the past I remember Sun Droplet but it's probably too cute. Now I'm happy with 2 Thunderstaffs to buy time vs UR(x) decks
Just thought I'd point out that Sun Droplet is actually a staple sideboard card for MUD against burn. It recoups your life from Ancient Tombs when you're not getting bolted left and right. How is Thunderstaff for you?

Michael Keller
11-19-2014, 11:04 AM
I'm not sold on cutting the Wastelands for ESG. The addition of Wasteland was probably one of the better additions the archetype.

Wastelands are fine to play if you want to go that route. I just see no merit in them as the decks that rely heavily on a lower curve tend not to need an overabundance of mana resources anyhow, so it just felt underwhelming.

This is a deck that wants to power out turn-one Trinisphere or Chalice, and the existing configuration only had a few Tombs and a miser's City of Traitors to accomplish that feat. ESG gives you gas against Rishadan Port and Wasteland on the draw, in addition to facing down turn-one Blood Moon effects where that green can be key. It's very multifaceted and an elegant, yet sneaky way of getting around awkward circumstances and powering out huge plays like the aforementioned lock pieces or Natural Order turns one and two.

You want to dictate the pace of the game, and this gives you that ability to shut decks down before they get started.

Elvish Spirit Guide is a quick resource that allows you to play around Daze when the turn-one Chalice off Tomb hits play, and enables turn-two Natural Order plays with an EOT-fetch-Arbor. I jammed games all night with that package and was able to blowout just about every opponent I played against. They either needed to deal with Chalice/3-Ball or get smashed by the hydra. Empyrial Archangel also saved me more than once against random aggro and Burn.

Green Sun's Zenith is great in the deck, don't get me wrong, but this deck doesn't have a very good endgame. It has a bunch of redundant biggies that do certain things, but sometimes that's not enough. Ending the game at a moment's notice is a very real option.


I jammed some games yesterday, using Lejay's list as base (since I currently don't have ESG and don't feel like buying a playset):

You can still test cards in a deck without needing to buy them; that really isn't your argument for not testing with them, right?


Cutting Choke for the NO package is definitely a massive shift - while Choke is good against blue decks, NO kinda sucks against free counters.

In a deck with a bunch of random green creatures with various utilities, being able to have that inevitability is key. Again, Spirit Guide helps you dodge Daze, Spell Pierce is really at a low point of general play and if your opponent decides to Force it, then so be it. You can't really argue that a free counter makes Natural Order "suck," because then really any deck without free counters to fight back sucks by default. Not a good argument, and I understand that losing a creature can be a problem. However, the reward greatly outweighs the risk and I've played a similar, yet older model of this deck to high finishes in the past (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14331-A-Swift-Boot-to-the-Progenitals-Taking-Third-at-Jupiter-Games-40-Dual-Land-Draft).

Trust me: if you're playing a Chalice-Aggro variant, you want options and an endgame. You're playing to the strengths of the top of your deck, and a card like Natural Order changes the dynamic of the entire strategy in a beneficial way. Choke is fine main as well, but again I just feel that decks with lower curves that play Daze don't need to worry all that much about it early on and being a dead draw acting more as a non-applicable lock piece when facing down non-blue decks seems really bad. Natural Order is never a dead card. It's [Choke] better against Miracles, but then again, so is every other card in this deck that shuts it down [Chalice, 3-Ball, Abrupt Decay, etc.].


I'm not sure how to feel about it, since either package is dead in certain match-ups, but I can see the appeal in certain match-ups where NO basically autowins. Elderscale Wurm is definitely better than Archangel, who says "Find a way to deal with me or you won't be able to win with damage!".

I overall like Lejay's sideboard plan so far, although it lacks proper answers against Jace and Batterskull.

Grip, Sage, Slime and Decay for the token [and Mystic] should be able to handle Batterskull. The overabundance of threats in the main should make Jace less of a threat when it hits the board, and cards like Empyrial Archangel and Progenitus with Shroud. Wurm eats it to Swords, which I don't like.


While I'm not entirely sure about MD Choke anymore, I would try to run at least 3 in the board. They can be still game-winning pieces against blue decks.

I could see this as a possibility. I'm running two to compliment the other heavy lock components in the deck.


What's the Gaea's Blessing for? And I don't see the point of Primal Order, since it seems pretty underwhelming for what it does.

Gaea's Blessing is a card I was testing out of the board for primarily the Painter match-up, with added utility against Reanimator, Dredge, Loam strategies and other graveyard-based decks. It replaces itself at worst, and gives the deck an element of blowout surprise against something like Painter where you can make them pay the following turn for the abrupt would-be winning activation. I doubt it's the best card to have in the board, but this deck already has so many good match-ups against most Legacy decks seeing play right now that one has to wonder if jamming more redundancy in the sideboard for those match-ups is worth it, or if some trickery and rounded utility is the better way to go.

So, as far as Primal Order goes, clearly this deck has an issue against Lands, because let's face it: lock pieces are fairly unimpressive when your opponent can just flood the board with mana sources and grind you out. I didn't like this, and it also comes back to the importance of Progenitus and Angel with the Natural Order package main. Primal Order is a card that domes an opponent with a heavy non-basic setup each turn for tons of damage. Remember, this is a control deck. Ruination in the face of Life from the Loam and Mox Diamond isn't all that great, but still has its merits for the big hit. Primal Order dealing five to seven damage a turn at no cost and remaining out of Decay range is something to consider, in addition to being a card needing to be dealt with or face down serious damage without the Tabernacle or Port shenanigans that could potentially hold us back.

Primal Order is a static source of massive amounts of damage that can just flat-out crush a Lands or Loam player. It can also act as a de facto burn spell when damage on the table is short and gives you the win during that opponent's upkeep - before they can attack or do anything else.

Simply put, it actually beats decks heavy on non-basics by itself. Lands is a deck that would just get destroyed by this card. I suppose you could also splash for Blood Moon if you wanted to, which I feel is also better than Ruination in most instances and easier to cast.


What's your board plan vs. Sneak and Show? Currently, you're completely cold to it.

The deck isn't completely cold to it. Showing in a Progenitus or Archangel against Griselbrand main gives the deck a shot, and Acidic Slime and Sage both destroy Sneak Attack. Spoil can also attack their resources early if they try to power out the Attack off Show and Tell without another red source. Obviously OmniTell gets flushed with Trinisphere.

As far as the sideboard goes, Grip takes out Attack without mana. If an opponent is Showing something in and it resolves (which it will because we're not playing blue to stop it), then the best we can do is counter it by running maybe a few Ashen Riders. I don't see a lot of it in my meta, which is why I don't board too much for it. I would adjust accordingly if I expected it more.

bruizar
11-19-2014, 04:12 PM
Of the top 90 most frequently played nonland cards:
Chalice of the Void at one stops 38.82% of the format
Chalice of the Void at two stops 28.24% of the format
Chalice of the Void at three stops 10.59% of the format

Michael Keller
11-19-2014, 04:15 PM
Of the top 90 most frequently played nonland cards:
Chalice of the Void at one stops 38.82% of the format
Chalice of the Void at two stops 28.24% of the format
Chalice of the Void at three stops 10.59% of the format

Right now the card is incredibly powerful, probably more than it ever has been.

bruizar
11-19-2014, 04:23 PM
Right now the card is incredibly powerful, probably more than it ever has been.

You'd almost want to play Brainstorm AND Chalice. Trading 3 or 4 brainstorms against 20 of your opponents cards is a nice trade; and you still get to play with Brainstorm.

Choke hits 24.71% of the cards. The real number is much higher, probably twice as high at least. The value is low because blue decks are almost never monocolored, it doesn't account for duals nor the fact that Force of Will won't cause lands to tap, and that Daze will actually untap an island. Even with 'bad' analysis we know without the shadow of a doubt that Choke hits a quarter of the most popular cards in competitive legacy. I'd estimate the real figure is probably double if you account for dual lands getting tapped to play non-blue spells (Volcanic Island and Tundra decks in particular. e.g. delver and miracles cards)

This also means that Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast have plenty of targets to go around.

Zupponn
11-19-2014, 05:42 PM
Two cards that I would love to try out in this deck would be Master of the Wild Hunt and Rampaging Baloths. I'm not sure if they are good enough to replace any of the current threats, but they're both must answer threats that can get out of control very quickly.

Barook
11-19-2014, 06:27 PM
Two cards that I would love to try out in this deck would be Master of the Wild Hunt and Rampaging Baloths. I'm not sure if they are good enough to replace any of the current threats, but they're both must answer threats that can get out of control very quickly.
Baloth is one mana more expensive than Titania and doesn't give immediate value.

As much as I like Master of the Wild Hunt, he's best against decks that run AD instead of StP and/or Bolt as removal. Given the current popularity of UR and UWR shells, I don't think he's well-positioned right now.

Deviruchi
11-20-2014, 02:56 AM
Just thought I'd point out that Sun Droplet is actually a staple sideboard card for MUD against burn. It recoups your life from Ancient Tombs when you're not getting bolted left and right. How is Thunderstaff for you?

Thunderstaff reduces bleeding vs UR in a decent way. I like them in a version without red + pyroclasm / firespout.

hofzge
11-20-2014, 07:13 AM
Baloth is one mana more expensive than Titania and doesn't give immediate value.

As much as I like Master of the Wild Hunt, he's best against decks that run AD instead of StP and/or Bolt as removal. Given the current popularity of UR and UWR shells, I don't think he's well-positioned right now.

I think the more appropriate creature at 4CMC would be Huntmaster of the Fells, as it gains life and provides Blockers, as well as potentially taking over the game, but Taiga surely isn't great.

How about a non-creature spell: Garruk Relentless. I know it isn't tutorable, but it is great at controlling the game, taking it over and cannot be killed that easily. Also :3::g: is easier than :2::g::g: on the 3 Ancient Tom/4 Wasteland manabase.

Michael Keller
11-20-2014, 12:45 PM
I think the more appropriate creature at 4CMC would be Huntmaster of the Fells, as it gains life and provides Blockers, as well as potentially taking over the game, but Taiga surely isn't great.

How about a non-creature spell: Garruk Relentless. I know it isn't tutorable, but it is great at controlling the game, taking it over and cannot be killed that easily. Also :3::g: is easier than :2::g::g: on the 3 Ancient Tom/4 Wasteland manabase.

Garruk can eat a Bolt with either the activated or triggered transform ability on the stack; something to consider. Although putting a wall of Wolf tokens in front of him to protect himself seems decent.

[Edit: 4,000 posts. Only took eleven years!]

Lejay
11-22-2014, 03:16 PM
I playtested the deck a bit online since the GP and I played in my first irl tournament with the deck today.

In my testing I've liked playing qasali main and reclamation sage sideboard. I also tested a Knight of the reliquary since GP NJ week-end and it's definitely a good option. There are other good options for this deck but I think I will continue playing it. It also improves the value of sideboard lands and gives a tutorable (delayed) land destruction effect on GSZ. Other than that I only tested the singleton mox diam again in the golgari signet slot since I had so many lands and light splashed a third color main.
Couldn't think of anything else to improve the deck and I spent the last few days playing in modern because of the MOCS. I didn't qualify so I went to a 30 players event in Paris. However on the morning before going I suddenly realized that if I played a second mox diamond (which isn't bad on its own), the option of playing a second dryad (so that your GSZ are always live Turn 1) would switch from not worthing it to a being a good option. So I tweaked a bit the list and played this :

1 [UNH] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [C14] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland

I didn't like much going to 3 wastelands main (even more since Titania) but I couldn't find a more satisfying configuration. I REALLY didn't like going down to two baloths but Kotr takes already one of the slots and I really liked the idea of having 2 coursers with 4 sylvan library and 2 mox diamond. Library is even more of a 4-of with two mox diamonds in my opinion.
After thinking a lot on how to put back at least a third baloth I considered that tourney an occasion to test with two only plus two coursers and see how it goes.
4th Wasteland went into the side. I've been oscillating from 2 to 3 lands in the sideboard to replace tombs versus agressive match-ups, and having these three lands was also pretty nice for the grindy blue match-ups that made me remove chrome mox and elvish spirit guide. Against those I can sideboard out 2x mox diam and the second dryad arbor for the three lands in the side, giving them even more value.
I've cut the Bassara/Matsu/2nd deluge slot for that wasteland since it was the weakest. Worth noting I will probably side in faerie macabre as a blocker versus UR with this configuration but that remains to be tested.

5 rounds no top.
Round 1 versus Romain with solidarity.
Poor guy just never plays blue decks usually. Mox diam was awesome for accel in G1 but also against remand on a library in G2 (T1 tomb->chalice forced T2 forest->sylvan->remand->moxdiam->sylvan). I win both games with prison elements pretty easily.
2-0
1-0

Round 2 versus Nicolas with BUG Nic Fit.
A deed deck should be quite the worst match-up but at least he plays blue. That will quite impact the match even though he tried fetching around choke. I think he blows up a deed too early to get rid of chalice and brainstorm to hit his 3rd land drop, but he fails to find one anyway. Even if finds his land in the next unknown card he is too far behind. G2 I put him to 8 and he then stalls with a veteran explorer against my board. The turn before I obviously will attack for lethal he decays his own Veteran and play DTT to find deed or damanation or deluge (choke on board for his expensive spells in hand) and fails to do so thankfully.
2-0
2-0

Round 3 versus Cyril with affinity
Sounds like a hard match-up but turn 2 trinisphere is golden as I won the die roll and he played turn 1 drum and that's all.
G2 I sb out 2 chalice and 4 trini since on the draw and I mulligan one land hands into a 5 cards weak hand anyway. He only has one threat with cranial. I play kotr, he attacks putting me to 4 and blasts me for 4 before I can untap and fetch tower to prevent cranial beating.
G3 I side in all chalices and trinispeher again and turn two trini + removals wins it.
2-1
3-0

Round 4 versus Alexandre playing dazeless Jeskai GP winning list.
There isn't much he can do. These blue control match-ups are golden pairings for me.
2-0
4-0

Round 5 versus Alexandre with BURG tempo.
In my experience online it has been a good match-up. Although he plays no pyromancer but Tarmo+nemesis and 2x sb destructive revealry.
I win game one because a delver doesn't flip for two turns and he has to make bad blocks. Titania bought a lot of time.
G2 I lose after mulling to 5 and being on the draw.
G3 I keep a debatable hand, but I feel it was better than a 6 card hand : Forestx2, ancient tomb, GSZ, Trinisphere and massacre x2. I could lack black sources the whole game making this hand an effective mull to 5 but turn two daze proof trini is quite good and if I don't draw my black sources, chances are I will draw spells.
Turn two daze proof trini resolves while he plays T1 DRS T2 clique. I have a decay+fetch for DRS but he finds a third land and plays a delver he will flip playing brainstorm. That gives me windows for the massacres if I had black mana but I don't draw them nor gain life effects. I resolve a sylvan library and he puts me to one. Library only finds a fetch (swamp next card^^) and he had the force ready with mana open anyway at this point.
1-2
4-1

Conclusions :
I didn't see that much mox diamonds but I feel they are good enough and I liked the second dryad.
I didn't miss that much third baloth but I didn't face UR or burn, so I still wonder if that's the right call even if 2nd courser compensates. I also almost ran out of creatures R5G1. I played my last GSZ for DRS when he was at 3 and only had a qasali and a dryad remaining. I still had the superior winning board without it if he draws nothing too relevant though.
3 wastelands was alright even though keeping four main somehow would be nice.
The massacres' slowness in non plain match-ups I side it in (UR, elves, BURG) is not that often a problem but still is a recurring issue. I miss the good old times when I could afford my 2-3 pyroclasm/firespout split.
Only way to put them back in I think would be to cut sb wasteland for one taiga (2 mox diams helps) and getting rid of faerie macabre to put back pyroclasms. I don't think I am ready to do that but that may change one day.

EDIT : Maybe playing 2x mox diams would allow for cutting 4th forest and replacing it with 8th fetchland or 3rd bayou. Mox diam discarding fetches to save life or bilands to protect from wasteland/P2P is a thing.

EDIT2 : Worth noting that everyone in the room knew what I played since I was asking everybody if they had a Kalonian Hydra.

Barook
11-22-2014, 04:40 PM
Since you're already running fetches, Wasteland and now KotR + Mox Diamond, have you thought about Life from the Loam in your 75?

In my limited testing, chaining Wastelands with KotR under a Trinisphere was pretty backbreaking. Loam could do the same thing.

Edit: Since you're testing the Mox Diamond + second Dryad Arbor route, I would seriously reconsider testing the NO package - Elderscale Wurm + Progenitus main, Ruric Thar in the board.

Edit2: I also continue to be dissatisfied with the solutions to Batterskull. Stoneforge often comes down unaffected by our disruption and put in Batterskull. Sure, we have hate creatures we can search for, but unless we already have a Trinisphere down, they can still force it. I'm tempted to put Krosan Grip back in.

Also just throwing some ideas in:

As far as the red splash is concerned, how does Huntmaster of the Fells compare to Baloth?

How would a Grove + Punishing Fire engine work in the deck?

Lejay
11-23-2014, 12:30 AM
I considered loam and crucible a couple times. You need to impact the board and you are already pretty low on creatures. If I would play with this kind of card I would start over and build around them (4 mox diamond, 4 Kotr with maze of ith), but I don't see enough incentives right now.
Chaining wastelands with crucible or loam is a plan that is good when you are already ahead and you have ways to tutor Kotr so I don't want to multiply these cards that much.

Problems I had with NO when I played it were first the unfixable bad draws. I tried fauna shaman and dawnstrider main for progenitus and the 15/15 wurm I had in the sb but it wasn't great. It also doesn'thelp for elderscale or terastodon. Ruric Thar would necessitate a splash, which isn't a very big problem but it adds up. Second was that NO isn't that powerful anymore on its own in the format being raced, answered via many removals for scale, Council's judgment for progenitus, or terminus for anything. I feel Titania and Hydra are NOs on themselves and even with this configuration slots are already pretty expensive.
I also would have to decrease the number of sylvan libraries since Baloths couldn't stay. I think I prefer to have my sylvan forced and resolve trini/choke with creatures than hoping my trinisphere will protect my NO.
I've defended NO a lot to Tristan at the beginning ("it's obvious with 4 trinispheres !"), but with creatures that are so powerful at 5 mana and tutorable on GSZ, we should drop the idea.

I can understand why you are disatisfied with answers to batterskull but I think I am ok with them. Generally decaying sfm and locking their mana is the plan, and locking their mana then decaying/trading a baloth for batterskull works the majority of the time also. Knight now means GSZ for 3 finds a blocker for batterskull and tarmos which is quite nice. Post sideboard it tutors the tower.
If you still don't find that enough I think 2x mox diamonds can allow for a 1 baloth 1 siege rhino split (or 1 Courser 1 Rhino 2 Baloth). I don't recommend but feel free to try.
Oh and of course they don't always have mana open, so a well timed GSZ does the job. Be patient and try to put you in the situation of keeping them off mana.

I've tried Huntmaster of the fells with my first red splash with NO/Ruric Main. It was really underwhelming.

Pfire is a decent consideration I had at some point since it answers delver. It's nice with Knight but it will be hard to play a third color with groves be it white for knight or black to handle TNN. I think Black is too important, Pfire lost some interest since TNN is a thing.

Barook
11-23-2014, 06:36 AM
I gave a NO list with the new modifications a spin, but by further cutting creatures, you run out of targets to sacrifice. So you're right, that left me unimpressed.

I'd still love a way to filter dead cards in dead match-ups like e.g. Choke vs. non-blue decks, but I still haven't found a card that doesn't suck (like the green Spellshapers).

Lejay
11-23-2014, 06:40 AM
I'd still love a way to filter dead cards in dead match-ups like e.g. Choke vs. non-blue decks, but I still haven't found a card that doesn't suck (like the green Spellshapers).

There are only two possibilities.
Cut choke.
Count on sylvan libraryx4.

Hopefully if you choose to play this deck in your metagame it is because you won't face many non blue decks. Also that's just for one game as sideboard is versatile enough to play good cards post sb.

Deviruchi
11-23-2014, 08:21 AM
I like the idea of adding 1 Knight of the Reliquary. I have huge problem beating S&T => Emrakul from U-Omniscience players and a Knight increases drastically chances to get a Karakas. I'm using your older list so for testing I will replace Signet. Can't imagine reducing Baloths.

apple713
11-23-2014, 08:24 AM
I gave a NO list with the new modifications a spin, but by further cutting creatures, you run out of targets to sacrifice. So you're right, that left me unimpressed.

I'd still love a way to filter dead cards in dead match-ups like e.g. Choke vs. non-blue decks, but I still haven't found a card that doesn't suck (like the green Spellshapers).

you should have more than enough creatures to sacrifice to natural order. Make sure you make good use of fetching for dryad arbors, and GSZ for them as well. If you ran knight of the reliquary that can tutor up a dryad arbor too.

scroll rack to filter dead cards.

if you are interested in a NO build consider checking this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28838-Deck-Chalice-of-the-Dark-Order&p=849527&viewfull=1#post849527). Its basically dropped the aggro strategy for a dedicated combo strategy.

Barook
11-23-2014, 08:48 AM
scroll rack to filter dead cards.
Scroll Rack certainly is an interesting card since it does exactly what I was looking for - turning dead cards into additional gas. Sounds at least good in theory and might be worth it if we run enough shuffle effects.

Edit: After thinking about it, the package sounds rather intriguing (without being concerned about slots for now):

8th fetchland, 3 Library /2 Rack split (or 4/1, depending on how it turns out), 1 Life from the Loam

More fetchlands means more shuffle effects, food for DRS (for better or worse) and KotR and stuff to pick up with Loam.

While I'm concerned that Loam can dredge away key cards, it can also be used in conjunction with Rack to get rid of unwanted chaff. You can also use Loam to refill your hand to draw extra cards with Rack and dredge them right back into the GY with Loam the next time you draw.

Sadly, Loam has no real synergy with Library since you still draw 2 cards that you have to put back, but it can't be helped.

Memories of the Time
11-24-2014, 04:08 AM
Very interested on Scroll Rack/lftl engine, always loved this engine. The main problem is: other non creature slots. Something like:

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl

2 Mox Diamond

1 Scroll Rack
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

apple713
11-24-2014, 04:23 AM
Very interested on Scroll Rack/lftl engine, always loved this engine. The main problem is: other non creature slots. Something like:

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl

2 Mox Diamond

1 Scroll Rack
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

be careful when you try to use loam and scroll rack. the interaction is slow and advantage is incremental. The deck is not built to play as control and although there is synergy between the two cards really it should only be focused on when you are out of other plays.

H
11-24-2014, 09:26 AM
I'd still love a way to filter dead cards in dead match-ups like e.g. Choke vs. non-blue decks, but I still haven't found a card that doesn't suck (like the green Spellshapers).

The Black Spellshapers are generally better (but still pretty bad) like Notorious Assassin or Urborg Syphon-Mage.

The closest to playable Green one would probably be Stampede Driver, which also happens to be bad. :frown:

Lejay
11-24-2014, 12:28 PM
I still think dawnstrider is a good sideboard card even if I don't play it at the moment.

Has anyone played the deck this week-end ? I will regret my investment on the deck and posting about it if no one has the balls to play it. It's not even a ballsy thing since the deck is pretty good and it went well for me.

Also you are guaranteed to be featured at some point if you are in top tables. :D

Michael Keller
11-24-2014, 03:08 PM
I still think dawnstrider is a good sideboard card even if I don't play it at the moment.

Has anyone played the deck this week-end ? I will regret my investment on the deck and posting about it if no one has the balls to play it. It's not even a ballsy thing since the deck is pretty good and it went well for me.

Also you are guaranteed to be featured at some point if you are in top tables. :D

I've gone full-steam ahead with this archetype. Granted, I play a different variation, but this is my deck of choice going forward and I'll be piloting it in as many big events as I can in the future.

FoolofaTook
11-24-2014, 03:15 PM
Scroll Rack is probably better in a white shell that has several ways to put extra cards in hand reliably and a bunch of ways to shuffle the library during and after doing that. If you can find ways for a green shell to do that then Scroll rack will fold in well.

infiniteJ
11-24-2014, 06:11 PM
It's not green but has anyone tried pack rat? It operated well with the lock pieces and can filter out redundant draws and dead chokes.

Barook
11-24-2014, 07:54 PM
It's not green but has anyone tried pack rat? It operated well with the lock pieces and can filter out redundant draws and dead chokes.
Pack Rats are an interesting idea since they can spiral out of control rather quickly. I'm not sure if they fit into the deck, though, especially since they're best run alongside Mutavault. I kinda miss an aggressive low-cost threat that can take advantage of locking out the opponent. Think Tarmogoyf, but something that the deck can actually support.

Lejay
11-25-2014, 04:42 AM
Pack Rats has good points. But the way games generally proceed, you first play prison elements, acceleration, or cards that will give you an advantage over the course of the game (sylvan/courser or even knight). After that you want something with high immediate impact (Baloth/Titania) to cope with the board when you are behind whereas pack rats is more of a grindy card. And as you underlined being green is a pretty good quality in the deck.
Given how I have trouble putting everything I want in the deck due to the prison elements in great numbers I doubt it will make it.

apple713
11-25-2014, 03:16 PM
The Black Spellshapers are generally better (but still pretty bad) like Notorious Assassin or Urborg Syphon-Mage.

The closest to playable Green one would probably be Stampede Driver, which also happens to be bad. :frown:

syphon mage is just an overcosted deathrite shaman


Scroll Rack is probably better in a white shell that has several ways to put extra cards in hand reliably and a bunch of ways to shuffle the library during and after doing that. If you can find ways for a green shell to do that then Scroll rack will fold in well.

yeah i have been testing scroll rack in another deck very similar to this but with dark depths and natural order. I haven't found scroll rack to really be good because it doesn't net you any cards. its similar to mirri's guile vs sylvan library. although library doesn't net you any cards you have the option to. scroll rack and mirri's are fixed and scroll rack particularly blows on an empty hand.

Michael Keller
11-25-2014, 04:08 PM
I like the idea of adding 1 Knight of the Reliquary. I have huge problem beating S&T => Emrakul from U-Omniscience players and a Knight increases drastically chances to get a Karakas. I'm using your older list so for testing I will replace Signet. Can't imagine reducing Baloths.

Not sure how this is a problem. The deck runs Chalice and Trinisphere as shutdown elements, and Omnitell generally only runs a singleton Emrakul anyhow. The deck durdles to setup its win, but our lock pieces should be good enough to silence them.

In that instance, it would seem like Tsunami or Choke would be the more powerful option under a Trinisphere if you're worried about OmniTell.

MGB
11-25-2014, 04:42 PM
I've gone full-steam ahead with this archetype. Granted, I play a different variation, but this is my deck of choice going forward and I'll be piloting it in as many big events as I can in the future.

Are you going to be at the SCG Open in Oaks, PA coming up in Jan 11?

Michael Keller
11-25-2014, 04:46 PM
Are you going to be at the SCG Open in Oaks, PA coming up in Jan 11?

I will be there. I'm going with a full-on "fuck it" mentality. Star City Opens have never been good to me, aside from a few Top 16s.

Ricflairwoo
11-26-2014, 03:58 PM
I still think dawnstrider is a good sideboard card even if I don't play it at the moment.

Has anyone played the deck this week-end ? I will regret my investment on the deck and posting about it if no one has the balls to play it. It's not even a ballsy thing since the deck is pretty good and it went well for me.

Also you are guaranteed to be featured at some point if you are in top tables. :D


I'm bringing it to SCG Portland. Hopefully I will have better luck than I did at GP New Jersey. I was going to write a tournament report on my experiences at GP NJ, but I think they can be summed up in one statement. This is not a draw bracket deck. If you draw in R1 with this deck ask your opponent to concede to you...if they do not, concede to them and move on. Contrary to popular belief the draw bracket is NOT the miracles bracket. It's the slow play bracket, and with how long it can take to win you need to be as far way from it as possible. I mostly play on magic online and with the chess clock it's not a problem..you only have POP/FlameRift draws on mtgo.

I 3-1'ed and 4-0'ed the last two 8pm pst dailies with Lejay's new mox diamond list and I have to say I think it's the best version of the deck yet. The ability to play chalice/trini/choke/green sun for 2 on turn 1 is awesome. I played the KOTR in the main deck at the GP and I was very impressed by the card. Being able to tutor for Karakas/Wasteland/Tower is a great ability to have access to, and a lot of the time it's able to block goyf/batterskull/etc. Pridemage has also been sweet. Having a 2 mana GSZ target is important, and it also gives us the fringe benefit of being able to disguise ourselves as a maverick deck.(why I play heath over misty) I've had this come up multiple times, and I'll tell you the look on the opponents face when you play the choke/trini/chalice is great. I didn't miss having the 4 baloths and I played against U/R delver multiple times. The ability to lock them out on 1's on turn 1 far out weighs the life gain imho.

2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sylvan Library
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Choke
4 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
2 Rolling Spoil
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mox Diamond
1 Qasali Pridemage

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Karakas
1 Kalonian Hydra
2 Massacre
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Giant Solifuge
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Spike Weaver
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Wasteland
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Stingerfling Spider

lastly I'll leave you a reminder on why you alway bring in Stingerfling Spider against miracles.
http://i59.tinypic.com/2rhl0uq.png

H
11-26-2014, 04:17 PM
Haha, that is a friend of mine. Definitely mentioning that when I see him at FNM. :laugh:

Lejay
11-26-2014, 07:10 PM
I'm bringing it to SCG Portland. Hopefully I will have better luck than I did at GP New Jersey. I was going to write a tournament report on my experiences at GP NJ, but I think they can be summed up in one statement. This is not a draw bracket deck. If you draw in R1 with this deck ask your opponent to concede to you...if they do not, concede to them and move on. Contrary to popular belief the draw bracket is NOT the miracles bracket. It's the slow play bracket, and with how long it can take to win you need to be as far way from it as possible. I mostly play on magic online and with the chess clock it's not a problem..you only have POP/FlameRift draws on mtgo.(EDIT : In the context you presented of a big GP this would be true for all decks I think)

You should have pointed out that you only lost one match in 14 rounds at the GP week-end. To sum it up for readers :
Trial for byes : 4-1
Main event 0-0-3 (against very slow players with two rounds in which you were one turn short of winning)
3-0 at a win a box
3-0 at another win a box

About the decklist I replaced faerie macabres with ravenous traps recently because storm and dredge are much more prevalent online than reanimator. Adjust accordingly to what you expect in your metagame.
I am trying to play with the dawnstrider instead of the sb wasteland but I think we want that slot to be a land and maybe even a green mana producing land.
I am testing 8th fetch instead of a forest since mox diamonds help limiting the quantity of non basic lands you have in play for price of progress and also limits the damage from fetchlands by discarding them. So far so good but will need to test more (play with a different fetchland to measure the impact if you want to test).
I am still unsure about 2nd courser or 3rd baloth.

About the spider/angel confrontation : yep that happened to me as well.

Barook
11-26-2014, 07:42 PM
2nd Courser is a must. Not only is it a replacement if the first one bites the dust, you need the consistency to set up Courser + Library on a regular basis. And double Courser is just downright ridiculous. 3rd Baloth is debatable.

I'm busy this week, but I'm going to do some theorycrafting next week, trying to go deeper into the white splash with more KotRs while moving the Chokes to the SB (Choke is powerful in the right match-up/moment, but a tad bit too situational for my taste to run a full playset in the MD). I need to figure out the manabase and the right utility cards first, though.

Ricflairwoo
11-26-2014, 08:15 PM
You should have pointed out that you only lost one match in 14 rounds at the GP week-end. To sum it up for readers :
Trial for byes : 4-1
Main event 0-0-3 (against very slow players with two rounds in which you were one turn short of winning)
3-0 at a win a box
3-0 at another win a box

Yeah overall the deck performed well. I had my opponents in the spikeweaver/kalonian lock (if you are not familiar with how this works you attack with kalonian double the counters..fog if they have enough power to kill hydra, rinse and repeat as needed) when we went to time in r1-2. R3 I played against a guy who was at his 1st GP and did not know what the cards did. Had to call a judge 5-6 times to have them explain the interactions of cards(sylvan/courser), can I counter baloth(+1 lili), what does trinisphere do to force of will, green sun for 0 getting dryad arbor..etc etc. I did concede to my opponents in r2-3 because the draw was just a loss. I think it's important to explain this to new gp players as alot of the time they don't understand it. Asking them for the concession, and then conceding to them if they do not give it to you...will hopefully make them pay it forward at some point.

Here's a breakdown in what I faced in the trial

-r1 U/W helm Miracles. G1 chalice on 1 g1, into choke GG, G2 lose to early entreat G3 lock with trini and x2 spoils
-r2 Omnitell G1 i had an early chalice into trini, my opponent was very sad to find out how omni and trini work. g2 lose to dream halls g3 chalice on 1/trini take the game
-r3 Punishing Maverick This was the most memorable match of the whole gp. g3 my opponent had maze of ith and thrun against the spikeweaver/hydra combo. I ended up killing him in turns attacking with a 1024/1024 hydra after finally drawing wasteland.
r4 Storm he pushed an empty through chalice on 0 g1. I ended up getting lucky and ripping spoils to get the win. g2 i had an early trini chalice that locked it up.
r5 Maverick lost pretty badly to not drawing anything but lands. i mulled a hand i should have kept that had spoils and little action. was heartbreaking to not get the byes but the deck felt great overall.

win a box I played against blue decks and the games were not very exciting. One thing I can say is that I think it's 100% correct to board out the 3 ancient tombs against u/r delver burn etc. Also with the knight package you want to have 3 utlity lands in the sideboard to make him even more powerful. I tried tabernacle for a bit but it not tapping for mana was a problem. Depending on your meta you could go up to 2 karkas 1 tower I think.


Lejay as for the 2nd courser/baloth I think that the courser/sylvan engine is too powerful/important to not be playing 2 courser. draw 2 gain a life with sylvan has won me more games than I can count. I like the idea of ravenous trap in a heavy storm meta(just lost to it in r1), however if you have alot of u/r delver around the faeries are nice blockers for delver.

Ricflairwoo
11-26-2014, 09:11 PM
2nd Courser is a must. Not only is it a replacement if the first one bites the dust, you need the consistency to set up Courser + Library on a regular basis. And double Courser is just downright ridiculous. 3rd Baloth is debatable.

I'm busy this week, but I'm going to do some theorycrafting next week, trying to go deeper into the white splash with more KotRs while moving the Chokes to the SB (Choke is powerful in the right match-up/moment, but a tad bit too situational for my taste to run a full playset in the MD). I need to figure out the manabase and the right utility cards first, though.

I've tried x4 knight, x2 knight. I didn't much like either. but if you are going to do it you should play a karakas in the main. some other failures of mine were x4 goyf, x1 rhino..I wanted more early gsz targets but you need your creatures to do more than just be a */*+1 blocker.

A lot of people underestimate courser. he just hangs out and draws an extra card a turn until they die.

ceustice
11-26-2014, 10:39 PM
I like this deck but I think I kind lean toward a more Turbo Natural order Build or I've been toying with something that is closer to a Mono Green Devotion. For reference Caleb Durward wrote a article about the Turbo No list about a year ago. Here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-rogue-squadron/

Turbo NO

[/deck]
15 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Terastodon
2 Primeval Titan
2 Priest of Titania
4 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Wood Elves
1 Regal Force
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Natural Order
3 Plow Under
4 Green Sun's Zenith[/deck]

Ricflairwoo
11-27-2014, 03:26 AM
just went 3-1 with the list again. My only loss was to the Mogg Catcher deck, and that's just a bad match up on so many levels. Played against 12 Post, Miracles, U/R Delver, and Mogg Catcher. Knight was unreal against 12 post, it has fit perfectly in the package of utility creatures. If you haven't tried lejay's 75 card for card you're missing out.

Barook
11-27-2014, 06:12 AM
I've tried x4 knight, x2 knight. I didn't much like either.
Well, I plan to test 3x KotR, maybe that's the golden number. :tongue:

What exactly didn't you like about multiple Knights? And was that before or after the inclusion of Mox Diamond?

Memories of the Time
11-27-2014, 10:03 AM
I'm running kotr since the beginning, but a thing i don't like is the contrast between kotr, titania, ooze,drs and rip, that's a great card right Noè. And i really Don't like having Only containment priest as only hate card against sneak&show, that's very popular in italy.
Btw I'll run My list with rhino at Nebraska War, around 200 players next weekend. Not Sure about 2 mox Diamond and Only 22 lands

Lejay
11-27-2014, 01:08 PM
I'm running kotr since the beginning, but a thing i don't like is the contrast between kotr, titania, ooze,drs and rip, that's a great card right Noè. And i really Don't like having Only containment priest as only hate card against sneak&show, that's very popular in italy.
Btw I'll run My list with rhino at Nebraska War, around 200 players next weekend. Not Sure about 2 mox Diamond and Only 22 lands
I don't run rip so rip and ooze have no disynergies with the rest of the deck. The other one-ofs didn't screw each other in all my testing.
My list has 24 lands, were you talking about your list ?

4 Sylvan Library
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Trinisphere
3 Obstinate Baloth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Swamp
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Choke
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Wasteland
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Savannah
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mox Diamond
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Spike Weaver
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Massacre
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Trinisphere
1 Wasteland

I don't think you'll like it in a meta full of sneak show, but my way to fit in the 3rd baloth was to put 4th trinisphere in sideboard and cut the spider for it.
No spider means one less card versus delver decks but 1 more baloths compensates and imo improves the main deck. However I am not completely sure about the change so feel free to play stingerfling spider in the next SCG open even if it's just for the coverage hype. :P
I still want 4th trinisphere for combo and slow blue based control decks but against sfm decks I generally don't keep four of them now, so I think it's ok to put 4th in the sb.
Still on ravenous trap but that's a meta thing, feel free to play faeries if you expect reanimator.
I still feel SB wasteland slot needs to be a land so dawnstrider still isn't back.
8th fetch is a good fixer that synergizes with some creatures in the main and which didn't present any drawback so far in games, and I think mox diamonds helped on that.

I played this list in two dailies today and went 3-0-split and 4-0.

Ricflairwoo
11-28-2014, 02:49 AM
Well, I plan to test 3x KotR, maybe that's the golden number. :tongue:

What exactly didn't you like about multiple Knights? And was that before or after the inclusion of Mox Diamond?

it was before mox diamond. I just don't think you want that effect in multiples. if you're using her as the finisher you are much more susceptible to graveyard hate. I'd run karakas in the main if you are going that hard on knight.

apple713
11-28-2014, 03:06 AM
this deck is starting to look more like what I'm working on... starting to add mox diamonds and KOTRs.

Creatures 13
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

Spells - 20
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

Lands - 27
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Elderscale Wurm

Barook
11-28-2014, 03:17 AM
it was before mox diamond. I just don't think you want that effect in multiples. if you're using her as the finisher you are much more susceptible to graveyard hate. I'd run karakas in the main if you are going that hard on knight.
GY hate is my main concern. Of course i would include 1 Karakas, maybe even 1-2 Loam. But I'm going to test Lejay's current iteration before that.

frogger42
11-28-2014, 04:54 AM
Hiya. I've been wanting to find a Green version of Stax for a little bit. I see a lot of playtesting has gone into online weeklies and stuff. Has anyone tested this in their brick-and-mortar weekies? I tend to lend more viability to that kind of testing because, after a few weeks, people see how you come at them, and then they start to learn how to play against you (which is a better test of a deck's power). A bit extreme, but I've had people come at me with MD Energy Flux, haha. Just curious.

Memories of the Time
11-28-2014, 06:10 AM
Lejay:I'm talking about Ricflairwoo list that's very similar to mine maindeck. 24 lands + 2 Mox seems too much for me, but my experience from loam deck suggests that having at least 23 Lands is the basic number for Mox Diamond. Btw with diamond I find even more op rhino.
For the sideboard I play one very different, as said. BTW it's probably because different meta game, but I can't find a good card against s&t in these colors... This is the only tier deck that scares me (mud isn't so played here, stompy too)

MD.Ghost
11-28-2014, 06:55 AM
but I can't find a good card against s&t in these colors... This is the only tier deck that scares me (mud isn't so played here, stompy too)

Sneak&Show and Reanimator (Graveyard-Hate)

Lejay already used Stingerfling Spider against S&S which prevents Show&Tell into Fatty - you can also try Fleshbag Marauder (kills also TNN). The Problem is, you will either face Sneak Attack or Show&Tell, you can't attack both with one Green(/Black) Creature. Containment Priest is also an Option, but it you can't use it as a Show&Tell card and disable GSZ.

My current GBw Testbuild has Maindeck 2 Knights, 1 Karakas and 2 Toxic Deluge (hey it can work :wink:) and +1 more Karakas, +1 Stingerfling and +2 Krosan Grip as a Sideboard Choice, so Sneak & Show isn't the worst matchup.

Graveyard-Hate: see above + 1 Deathrite and 1 Ooze Maindeck; Sideboard: +1 Karakas, +1 Spider (both against Reanimate), +1 Bojuka Bog (Knights..), +2 Faerie Macabre. Note that Chalice itself is also much better against Reanimator than against Sneak&Show.

Memories of the Time
11-28-2014, 07:46 AM
The problem of non priest options is that they don't hit sneak attack. Priest is by far the only cheap and reasonable option here, unless you want to convince me that have karakas+grip a is reliable and realistic one. I also doesn't like having too many land sideboard card with only 1 kotr, so I ask you if it works. Rip still seems a very good sb card here, but probably too many problems... Dunno.
Uba mask could be a good option too, especially because it hits miracle too (veeeery played here) and is fycking awesome with library.

Ricflairwoo
11-28-2014, 01:07 PM
Lejay:I'm talking about Ricflairwoo list that's very similar to mine maindeck. 24 lands + 2 Mox seems too much for me, but my experience from loam deck suggests that having at least 23 Lands is the basic number for Mox Diamond. Btw with diamond I find even more op rhino.
For the sideboard I play one very different, as said. BTW it's probably because different meta game, but I can't find a good card against s&t in these colors... This is the only tier deck that scares me (mud isn't so played here, stompy too)

I'm playing Lejay's list, only things haven't switched to in his current list are the spider/Baloth/trap changes. I tried a 1/1 spilt of faerie macabre/trap but for me I like the flexibility of the faeries. I've tried rhno in all numbers, but I don't think it's high enough impact for the azban cost.

Went 1-2 drop, 3-1 yesterday losing to mono red sneak attack, and grixis dack in the 1st. And then u/w/r (jacemsst) who likes to brag that he's never lost to the deck.

P-E
11-28-2014, 02:37 PM
I tested the deck a bit , really strong and nice to play ^^ Thx Lejay
i have one question , my meta is not all blue but rather DnT/Aggro, is it decent to put choke in side and put Deluge/ Massacre/ Sage MD ?

Lejay
11-28-2014, 06:48 PM
And then u/w/r (jacemsst) who likes to brag that he's never lost to the deck.
He lost to it 2-0 yesterday.

I tested the deck a bit , really strong and nice to play ^^ Thx Lejay
i have one question , my meta is not all blue but rather DnT/Aggro, is it decent to put choke in side and put Deluge/ Massacre/ Sage MD ?
I guess it is and the deck would still be good. But I would simply play a combo deck in this metagame (unless people are hating too much on all of them).

Barook
11-28-2014, 10:47 PM
S&T is too much of a non-factor to bend the deck over for it, at least on MODO.

I've watched several matches of Lejay doing well, and while being lucky about getting overall blue match-ups, he has done his homework to introduce one of the few existing brews to the current metagame. I'm defintely impressed, so keep up the good work, we're on something here, guys.

FoolofaTook
11-28-2014, 11:43 PM
yeah i have been testing scroll rack in another deck very similar to this but with dark depths and natural order. I haven't found scroll rack to really be good because it doesn't net you any cards. its similar to mirri's guile vs sylvan library. although library doesn't net you any cards you have the option to. scroll rack and mirri's are fixed and scroll rack particularly blows on an empty hand.

The way you play Scroll Rack is with cards like Land Tax and Squadron Hawks and Stoneforge Mystic. Cards that get you extra cards in hand when you play them and allow you to turn the two cards you maybe have in hand when you play them into a deep dig into the library with a reshuffle effect afterwards.

Stoneforge Mystic is just one extra card but it's a free card and when you have your equipment plus 2 it's worth Scrolling to look at the top 3 of your library. A lot of the time you'll even want to leave the equipment there up top waiting for the next draw because you're not going to play it that turn anyway and you don't want it sitting there in your hand waiting for discard or Vendilion Clique or something like that to take it out of your hand.

Really Scroll Rack is too slow for Legacy but if you are going to use it you need ways to get extra cards in hand to really exploit it.

Memories of the Time
11-29-2014, 05:56 AM
Lejay: haven't considered Dryad arbor as a land, in this case i play 23 land and you 24, it's ok. How are working Mox Diamonds in your list? They are the main not-sure-point in my MD list.

Lejay
11-29-2014, 08:56 AM
They have been good. You pay less the card disadvantage on lands than with chrome/ESG thanks to coursers, running that many lands means less mulligans, 4 sylvan means you almost never draw mox diamonds midgame, they make dryad in hand less of an issue, they help fixing the addition of a third color, the speed boost to land prison elements can make a big difference versus fast combo decks, and when facing slow grindy decks you have regular lands in the sideboard.

apple713
11-29-2014, 09:58 PM
how is the deck performing again D&T? are the abrupt decay's enough against the equipment?

i see lejay is using massacre and that clearly helps but is it enough?

solifuge for miracles? has it proved useful?


EDIT***

Is spike weaver along with trini / chalice sufficient against elves?

are elves the only thing you are bringing weaver / hydra in against?


Anyone given thoughts to willow satyr against S&T?

Ricflairwoo
11-30-2014, 12:44 AM
how is the deck performing again D&T? are the abrupt decay's enough against the equipment?

i see lejay is using massacre and that clearly helps but is it enough?

If you follow lejay's death and taxes sb plan(1st page) I think the match up is favorable. Game 1 you have the x4 decay plus spoils. You have to be careful with how you use your decay's. Serra avenger is hard to deal with and you should prioritize them with decay. You have plenty of other answers post sb for the equipment(sage, tower, Pridemage).

Weaver/Hydra combo come in against swarm decks(merfolk, etc) and I also board it in against lands. It's a bit slow but once it's online alot of decks just straight up can't beat it.

Soli is decent, not in love with it but I don't think we have a ton of options.

Sisyphos
11-30-2014, 12:08 PM
Played the deck in a small local tournament to a 3-0-1 finish. Drew against DnT in the first round, then beat Ant, 4-Color-Control and MonoU-Omnitell 2-0 each. Played some more games inbetween rounds against 4-Color-Control and MonoU-Omnitell to get some practice in, putting the total against 4-Color-Control at 5-0 and at 4-0 against Omnitell . The draw in the first round was unintentional and at least in part due to my inexperience with the deck (was my first time running the list), which made me play slower then usual. I'd guess that I was the favorite on board and had a reasonable shot at winning if I had an additional 10 minutes to work with, but I was at a very low life total so I could have lost if I would have bricked with my draws for 3-4 turns.

List I used was:

2 dryad arbor
1 savannah
3 ancient tomb
3 bayou
3 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
2 wooded foothills
4 wasteland
3 forest
1 karakas
2 mox diamond
1 knight of the reliquary
1 deathrite shaman
1 qasali pridemage
1 titania, protector of argoth
2 courser of kurphix
2 obstinate baloth
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 choke
4 sylvan library
4 abrupt decay
2 rolling spoil
4 green sun's zenith

1 tower of the magistrate
1 stingerfling spider
1 spike weaver
1 scavenging ooze
1 kitchen finks
1 reclamation sage
1 kalonian hydra
1 giant solifuge
2 gaddock teeg
1 massacre
2 faerie macabre
2 toxic deluge

Thanks for the list Lejay! Great work.

bruizar
11-30-2014, 12:16 PM
Could you tell me how exactly the omnitell games went? What cards were critical to win those games?

apple713
11-30-2014, 12:26 PM
Could you tell me how exactly the omnitell games went? What cards were critical to win those games?

trinisphere, and GSZ for qsali pridemage because it can kill omni and put pressure on them until they find an answer to it. reclamation sage also helps from board but only if you can S&T it into play. Chalice at 1 slows them down if they arnt holding the combo.

Gheizen64
11-30-2014, 12:49 PM
Trying around various Daretti decks and shit, i was hit by how good the Punishing fire is in current legacy. Remove all of the annoying creatures in the format, plus double as really efficient reach and PW removal even against miracles. So since i thought this deck was so good at being prison, that i'd try it in the shell, in place of A. Decay which i felt was used 90% of the time to remove walkers and creatures anyway, with a distant third on equips.
So i've looked into what card i could use in a RG base shell, and my first thought was BloodBraid elves. The card however is a big nonmbo with both chalice, trinishpere and GSZ, so i decided to not even bother. However, searching GR cards bore some interesting fruits:


Prison:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke

Card Advantage:
4 Punishing Fire
2 Domri Rade
4 Sylvan Library

Creatures:
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows


SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sudden Shock
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
+3 flex


Huntmaster of the fells is INSANE in this deck. It's comparable to Obstinate baloth, in that you can power it out with Ancient tomb, and gain you life. However, two bodies are usually better in case you're swarmed down compared to 1. But the flipping ability is just really good. Considering you play chalices, trinishperes and chokes, your opponents will often have turns where he doesn't do anything (and often you too), meaning it flipped every game i played him. With Library, you can draw 2 spells each turn and easily flip him back, giving you back half of the life you spend on library itself, and a 2/2 token, plus additional damage when he flip back. His relative weakness compared to baloth is that he's more vulnerable to burn (but less to swords), but chalice is here for that, and the additional utility convinced me this card was just much better than Baloth.

Domri is essentially another sinergistic piece with Library and Courser, that double as removal, damage sponge, and make any topdeck letal when you get the emblem. The problem here is that you run only 14 creatures so his +1 is not that good unless you got a Sylvan out.

Burning-Tree Emissary was something that i wanted to try, and for now it tested reall good, being able to put up a body+ Chalice/P.Fire. It's probably not that good, especially since i play 4 Wastes, but nothing strike me as good in its spot as of now. Another card i thought about was Satyr Wayfinder.

Rest of the list is pretty standard, with the sideboard having basically 3 flex slots (2 ruric, 1 Renegades), and the punishing fire engine killing every creature, woman and planeswalker you see.

Barook
11-30-2014, 01:09 PM
No Mox Diamonds? Domri seems kinda underwhelming since you don't run that many creatures to properly support his abilities.

Sisyphos
12-01-2014, 01:46 AM
Could you tell me how exactly the omnitell games went? What cards were critical to win those games? trinisphere, and GSZ for qsali pridemage because it can kill omni and put pressure on them until they find an answer to it. reclamation sage also helps from board but only if you can S&T it into play. Chalice at 1 slows them down if they arnt holding the combo.

Trinisphere was MVP for sure, especially when put into play directly via their Show and Tell to make it uncounterable. It makes it nearly impossible for them to combo you in one turn, which gives you enough time to get Pridemage/Sage to blow up the Omniscience. Chalice is nice for blanking their setup spells, but Choke was the one card that exceeded my expectations in the match-up. They need at least one, usually several, cantrips to find the combo and turning their lands into Lotus Petals means that every cantrip they cast gives you at least one extra turn because they have to find and play another land to get up to three mana again. Trinisphere+Choke means that they need at least 9 Islands in play to combo. Having the Karakas main instead of the second Savannah also won me a game, as he went for the back-up-plan of putting Emrakul into play with Show and Tell against my board of Trinisphere/Pridemage and without Karakas the deck has no out against that play preboard.