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apple713
11-12-2014, 01:35 PM
Dark Depths


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=121155&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=366353&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=389735&type=cardhttp://i.imgur.com/VSGqckL.jpg

Old thread: here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26107-Deck-Dark-Depths)

Change Log

8/4/19: Corrected crop rotation reference (thanks ESG)
5/6/17: updated Adrieng's decklist
3/7/17: Added Negator77's Podcast
1/27/17: updated adrieng's decklist
12/22/16: added dnssolver deck tech & videos
10/30/16: Added Complex Pants Decklist, changed intro, updated adrieng's sideboard strategy and decklist. Changed Apple713's sideboard. Moved not of this world to protection. Moved tainted pact to rejected cards.
9/6/16: Added spooky's decklist, removed "Plan B Deck", and added summary of versions. Changed the number Ratio's of match descriptions to lexical descriptions to better represent and describe the matches.
8/27/16: Updated Adrieng's decklist
1/11/16: Updated Chalice of the void (protection), Acceleration and Land Section, Sideboard options Section, Updated Stock Decklists.

Overview

Dark Depths is a combo deck that that tries to generate a Marit Lage token (20/20 Flying Indestructible) by either removing all of the counters with vampire hexmage or by creating a copy of dark depths with 0 counters using thespian’s stage.

I consider this deck to be a very strong choice because it is very resilient to traditional combo hate like counterspells and discard. Additionally it has the speed to keep up with other combo decks, and the versatility to adapt to a changing meta. Due to the limited number of threats the deck is concerned about it can focus on eliminating those in the main deck while maintaining consistency.


Introduction

The combo was first introduced when vampire hexmage was printed in zendikar. At that time Thespian’s stage had not been printed and the deck was a 2 card combo with much less consistency. It was not until Thespian’s Stage was printed in Gatecrash (Feb 2013) and shortly after the Legendary rule changed (March 2013) did the deck start to receive attention.

The change in legend rule allowed a player to copy Dark Depths with Thespian’s Stage and keep the Thespian’s Stage copy with 0 counters immediately generating the token.

The combo has seen some success in variants of Eternal Garden (Lands.dec) however that deck is an inappropriate shell for a dedicated combo deck. It does not properly exploit the consistency of having vampire hexmage and it leaves itself susceptible to the ever increasing amount of graveyard hate present in the meta.

Complex Pants has now put this deck on the map by winning eternal weekend 2016.


Ways to build the deck

The deck consists of 4 different parts that comprise the maindeck:

1. The Combo

Dark Depths: the namesake and sole reason we play this deck. 20/20 Flying Indestructible is the biggest baddest fatty in the game.

Thespian’s Stage: Copies Dark Depths to make Marit Lage token, copies any other utility land you OR your opponent has in play. Common targets are maze of ith and ghost quarters.

Vampire Hexmage: Removes counter from Dark Depths to create the Marit Lage token. Also serves as a good blocker because of first strike, and can remove planeswalkers.

Since the printing of Thespian’s Stage we now have two cards (vampire hexmage) and are able to increase the consistency to a point where Dark Depths becomes reasonably feasible and desirable to play.


2. Tutors

Crop Rotation: This is single handedly the best tutor for the deck. For the cost of 1 green mana you instantly get the missing combo piece or defensive card you are lacking. The land come into play untapped so it is essentially free.

Expedition Map: Although it is slightly more costly than sylvan scrying it allows you to search with colorless mana which is especially important under blood moon effects.

Sylvan Scrying: 1 mana less than expedition map but requires green, which is not commonly an issue.

Sylvan Library: The best draw spell for green. This card helps significantly over other cards like Mirri’s Guile because it allows you to translate life into cards in the event that Marit Lage gets Swords to Plowshares

Ancient Stirrings: An alternative to the direct tutors that are traditionally used. It also allows a player to grab pithing needle or expedition map as well as filter cards to the bottom of the library to take better advantage of sylvan library. Use if you need to increase the speed of your deck. Currently no deck runs this but it is an option.


3. Protection

One very attractive attribute about this deck is that there are only a few threats this deck cares about and that makes protecting against them much easier. The top threats are Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, and Karakas. Some of the less common threats include bounce spells, Maze of Ith, and Humility.

Pithing Needle: defends against the major threats to this deck. Wasteland, karakas, maze of ith. Also has application in extending game by hitting deathrite shaman, liliana, sneak attack, Griselbrand, aether vial and others.

Inquisition of Kozilek:one of the best ways to defend against swords to plowshares and fast combo decks. Also useful in taking creatures to slow down tempo decks.

Duress: same as Inquisition but can also get cards like force of will, ad nauseous, sneak attack. Since our primary target is typically swords to plowshares inquisition of kozelik is favored

Not of this World: Amazing at protecting the token from everything (swords, karakas, venser, bounce) especially since it is free. In the current meta there are a lot of these due to D&T and Miracles. Some decks are running it main and other in the side but it has become a staple in the 75.

Abrupt Decay: Replacing krosan grip because omnitell has fallen off the map, abrupt decay hits most of what you want to target and is uncountable. It is amazing against miracles to deal with counterbalance and can provide time against decks tempo decks like delver.

Red Elemental Blast & Pyroblast: With the overwhelming popularity of blue, having these main helps against counterbalance, delver, show and tell, bounce spells, and other miscellaneous targets.

Sejiri Steppe: Can be used crop rotated into to protect Marit Lage from swords to plowshares and other bounce spells AND can be used to give protection from blockers allowing him to attack through a wall of delvers or flickerwisps protected by mother of runes.

Maze of Ith: Can be used to buy ALOT of time against single threats that would normally close a game. sometimes that time is all you need because you already have the combo in hand. Delver, batter skull, tarmogoyf, reanimator, knight of the reliquary. Note this can be copied by Thespian’s stage until stage needs to copy dark depths.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: Slows opponent down by forcing them to make difficult decisions restricting their ability to overwhelm the board. Limiting threats also makes maze of ith more powerful.

Chalice of the Void: Although seemingly counterintuitive it significantly helps our weakest matches, Miracles and ANT, as well as improve many others. Even if we shut off some of our cards the benefit often outweighs the detriment. The chance of drawing the combo naturally is high so chalice is not as great a detriment that you might think. Against miracles, counterbalance + top shuts off our 1 drops anyways so if we can shut off both players 1 drops, including their swords to plowshare and Sensei's divining top in the process we definitely come out ahead. Additionally, against combo decks chalice can be played on 0, or 2. Yes this deck does have two drops but sometimes its ok. For example, against RG combo lands, G1 chalice on 2 just shuts them off of loam and punishing fire. More on it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths&p=925636&viewfull=1#post925636)

Ghost Quarter: Since we expect pithing needle to be on wasteland we can still use this to destroy opposing Karakas and maze of ith. Note that this can be copied with thespian’s stage to keep opponent off of mana. Can also be used to search out a basic forest in your deck.

*Although maze of ith and Tabernacle of pendrell vale don't get you closer to creating the token the small inclusion of just a few cards grants a vast amount of protection that is difficult for most opponents to deal with.


4. Acceleration and lands

Recommended stock mana configuration: 24-28 Lands. For each color you want to include you should have at least 10 lands that produce that color. Fetch lands are included in that count. Three mana bases are below.


Example 1 - 23 Lands *

Mana Producing Lands - 19

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Thespian's Stage

Non Mana Producing Lands - 4

4 Dark Depths

Other Mana Sources - 8

4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

The first thing you'll notice about this is that it runs slightly fewer lands but compensates with lotus petal / elvish spirit guide. These can be factored into your mana sources at 1/2 value since they are temporary. For example, 4 lotus petal would only add 2 to the colored mana count instead of the full cards.

Example 2 - 28 Lands

Mana Producing Lands - 21
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Forest

1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Thespian’s Stage

Non Mana Producing Lands - 7
4 Dark Depths
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Example 3 - 25 Lands

Mana Producing Lands - 21
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mox Diamond

4 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland

Non Mana Producing Lands - 4
4 Dark Depths

Notes on Lands

This can be customized to fit one's own playstyle of course, but this is considered the stock manabase.

Urborg is almost as important as the combo lands. Turns your non mana producing lands into mana producers. Allows you to cast hexmage on T2 with a dark depths in play for a turn 3 win. Allows you to use Gemstone Mine and Mana Confluence for black with no drawback.

Some versions of the deck plays three colors, mana confluence, and gemstone mine are essential to being able to cast what you need when you need it.

Copperline Gorge has a place here because it replaces other forests leaving you less susceptible to Submerge. Submerge is in ~10% of the metagames sideboard, meaning its in almost most delver sideboards.

The BG version runs Bayou's and fetch lands and is more susceptible to submerge but that can be played around if you expect it.

At least 1 forest is needed because it can be searched for with expedition map under blood moon.

Rishadan Port: Very good way to deal with opposing Karakas and Maze of ith. Can keep opponent off of white mana to cast swords to plowshares or simply keep a combo deck off of mana until you can make the token.

Karakas has been in and out of the main board depending on your meta.

Main Deck Construction Guideline

Ultimately, this is what the stock shell currently looks like:

The basic skeleton is below and should be followed closely to maintain consistency.

Combo - 12 (4 Dark Depths 4 Thespian's Stage 4 Vampire Hexmage)
Tutors - 8 - 12 (4 Crop Rotation 4 Expedition Map 4 Sylvan Scrying)
Additional Draw - 5
Protection - 13 (Pithing Needle, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Pyroblast, Ancient Stirrings, Exploration, Mox Diamond, Life from the Loam, Karakas)
Color Producing Lands - 14 (4 of which are Urborg and can be cut if not running black)
Utility lands - 0-4 (Sejiri Steppe, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Ghost Quarter, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale)

The numbers can be +/- 1 maybe 2 but remember that the greater the deviation, the less consistency you will have with the deck.

8 -12 tutors provide a very consistent basis for assembling the combo very quickly. Recent Versions have been only been using 8 4 Crop Rotation 4 Expedition Map with no reported loss of consistency. So, if you need to make room for other cards you can cut the number to 8 but I would not go less than that.

5 additional draw spells aid in consistency. Sylvan library has been the typical choice because it allows you to recover quickly in the event of swords to plowshares. Sensei's Divining Top works as well since it is not dependent on green mana. Usually a split between the two is appropriate.

13 Flex spots / Protection - This is where the deck is having issues. We have tried various mixes of duress, inquisition, red elemental blast, and carpet of flowers but we are getting crushed by other combo decks. Note that this number includes Pithing Needle which are normally an auto include. RG Combo lands which has similar combo matches as this deck runs 6-8 anti combo cards in the SB and they say it seems to work for them. 2-4 chalice of the void 2-4 Sphere of Resistance are most common.

10 lands that produce a given color can support 12-15 colored mana symbols. The list below has 15, but most iterations have at least 12 and there has not been an issue of colored mana.

4 utility lands is probably the minimum you want to run. Feel free to run more but adjust the manabase if you do.

9 black land sources seem ok to support 14 black mana symbols but sometimes it comes up short because of the double black of Vampire Hexmage

The "Protection" spots are also considered Flex spots should address the following issues

Disruption: improve matchup vs combo
Removal: improve matchup vs aggro
Protection: improve matchup vs control / heavy removal (swords, karakas, bounce, terminus)

The Sideboard

There is a huge amount of options in the deck's colors. However the deck has a limited number of issues and you shouldn’t let the options overwhelm you. I will try to list the ones most relevant in the current metagame.

Abrupt Decay: Although many decks are choosing to run this main, if you are not it should almost certainly be in the sideboard. Abrupt decay is actually my new favorite card EVER. Its amazing against Miracles and amazing against tempo decks. It also hits a lot of random things in between. The card buys us time against tempo decks which has often been a race. It's also creature removal against difficult matches like D&T. I really couldn't imagine playing a deck without it in this meta.

Reclamation Sage: Hits enchantment threats, blood moon being the most important. Although it can hit sneak attack too, pithing needle usually takes care of that.

Ratchet Bomb: Great way to kill a blood moon effects after they have come out. It can also kill tokens as soon as it hits the board including flipped delvers. May be used to sweep multiple creatures like SFM and Tarmogyf

Ancient Grudge: Great for hitting multiple artifacts that may slow us down like pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, and ensnaring bridge.

Toxic Deluge: Arguably the best answer against Death and Taxes' and other tribal-strategies, especially Elves! Pyroclasm is also very good against delver decks, hitting many of their threats like shardless agent and deathrite shaman.

Pyroclasm: 1 less mana than toxic Toxic Deluge and hits most of the same targets. Against fast decks like elves this is preferable.

Bojuka Bog: Great 1 of to sideboard in against dredge, reanimator, loam strategies, and other possible grave based decks.

Karakas: Good 1 of to sideboard in against reanimator or Sneak and Show. Although those are tough matchups, Karakas has little application outside of them. Hits vendillion clique, thalia, and venser.

Krosan Grip: Important if you are not running Abrupt Decay main deck.

Pernicious Deed: Excellent against miracles and various other creature based or permanent heavy decks.

Chalice of the Void: Helps protect against Swords to Plowshares and helps in combo matches. Against ANT / Storm Combo you can play it for 0 with similar effect as on 1 but without restricting your lines of play.

Sphere of Resistance: Good inclusion vs Storm / combo matchups by slowing dig. Often times you lose to combo decks by 1 turn. This can buy you that time.

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: More often it seems to be a sideboard card if run at all. Consider it against decks with either a large number of creatures or a very tight mana base. Dredge, Tempo, D&T, elves.

Surgical Extraction: has been good vs reanimator decks and decks that have the ability to recur wasteland / swords to plowshares (via snap caster). You can bring it in against dredge, reanimator, RG lands, and various other decks.


Issues the Deck Faces

Consider these cards when selecting the flex spots and sideboard choices. I've chosen to include an exhaustive list just to alert you to cards specific decks run that you might not think of. Slaughter Games is a good example. A link here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3WxN3VFi4lcb0R2c2hRQVdQbGs/view) to an excel file show the % of the format these threats make up. The data is for March and you will have to download it. An explanation of how to read the information can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths&p=874922&viewfull=1#post874922).

Most Likely To Encounter
Wasteland
Pithing Needle
Swords to Plowshares
Karakas
Batterskull
Surgical Extraction
Hymn to Tourach
Terminus
Blood Moon
Submerge
Stifle
Magus of the Moon

Less Likely to Encounter
Venser, Shaper Savant
Ensnaring Bridge
Umezawa's Jitte
Echoing Truth
Chain of Vapor
Flickerwisp
Diabolic Edict
Path to Exile
Maze of Ith
Fire // Ice
Humility
Glacial Chasm
Thopter Foundry
Wipe Away
Tidespout Tyrant
Ghost Quarter
Extirpate
Runed Halo
Stingscourger
Slaughter Games
Repeal
Rushing River
Peacekeeper
Vapor Snag

Submerge is a non issue because we only run 1 forest and decks running submerge are not getting to 5 mana. Hymn was included because it can hit land cards and that may affect the turns you make your land drops.

*Submerge may be seeing less play now and it has not presented itself as a real issue in a deck with more forests and Bayous.

Stock Decklists

I have provided several lists below to demonstrate the varying use of the Flex-Spots.


Complex Pants (Oran Kremen) deck: - Won Eternal Weekend 2016

Artifacts - 9
4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map

Instants - 7
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World

Sorceries - 12
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Into the North

Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library

Creatures - 8
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

Lands - 23
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard - 15
1 Winter Orb
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Karakas
1 Krosan Grip

Complex Pants has taken the original approach which really got this deck started back when thespian's stage was first released. It is an ALL IN turbo depths approach. It is easily the fastest version and can use that speed to win games a turn faster than the other versions, which is critical in some matches.

Adrieng’s deck: - updated 5/8/17


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith

// 20 Sorcery
4 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Inquisition of Kozilek


// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Dread of Night

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith


// 3 Tokens
// 3 Creature
1 Elemental
1 Marit Lage
1 Plant





This deck makes excellent use of all of the variable deck slots. It reduces inefficiencies and has optimized its choices to be applicable to the broad spectrum of decks the legacy meta presents. It has been optimized by adrieng and does a really good job dealing with the decks shortcomings.


Apple713’s Deck:

Artifacts - 6
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond

Planes walkers - 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Instants - 8
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation

Sorceries - 12
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Life from the Loam

Enchantments - 3
3 Sylvan Library

Creatures - 4
4 Vampire Hexmage

Lands -24
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

Sideboard -15
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Not of This World
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

This version is intended to handle the late game better than the other versions because of the the liliana's of the veil and 4x main deck abrupt decay's. If the game goes longer there is more to do with this version than the others. Against combo decks a liliana is the end for them. This deck focuses on hand disruption which is great against combo and control decks (generally our worst matches). Abrupt decay is main deck because of all the tempo decks in the meta as well as miracles. More can be read about my choices here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths&p=919660&viewfull=1#post919660).


Negator77's list:

Creatures - 4
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells - 27
3 Expedition Map
4 Mox Diamond
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

Lands - 29
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Mana Confluence
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths

Sideboard - 15
4 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghost Quarter

This is slightly different than the other two lists. This deck successfully has incorporated brainstorm into the list. Information and tournament report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths&p=919806&viewfull=1#post919806).


In summary, you can basically build this deck almost any way you'd like. Several different version of various speed have seen success and honestly it comes down to knowing the deck very well, knowing the opponents deck and what specifically you need to do to beat them, and executing it. The main thing these decks all have in common is that they all run full 4x crop rotation, vampire hexmage, dark depths, and thespians stage. These cards are all to valuable to exclude and as such the deck builder is forced into at least Green and Black. Until hexmage / crop rotation can be replaced by cards in other colors the decks will remain fairly similar.

Tested Strategies & Cards That Have Been Rejected

Lands.deck shell: Since the deck is primarily a control deck it’s focus is divided and too slow. It also leaves itself open to grave hate. Note that Apple713’s deck includes Loam but it is not to be used as a primary strategy. I have played versions with gambles, entombs, life from the loam and while having direct tutors is very nice it crutches on the graveyard too much and was highly susceptible to blood moon.

Junk Shell: I’ve tested many lists with some combination of creatures and control elements and although there may be a list that exists, no one in the thread has had notable success with it

Living Wish: Decreases consistency of drawing into the combo naturally (which is ideal) and slows down the deck. Also makes you more susceptible to counterspells.

Mirri’s Guile: I had originally included this in a previous version because it was cheaper and supported the speed aspect of the deck however for 1 more mana you get sylvan library and the card draw it provides is significant.

Into the North: This is great because it puts any snow covered land directly into play. While it does get Dark Depths, it does not compare to the versatility of sylvan scrying. This has seen play as a 1-2 of in some versions. It is intended as supplemental after 4x crop rotation and sylvan scrying.

Fling | Rites of Consumption: This card circumvents all forms of removal regarding the token. However, it has proven too slow for the Death and Taxes and poor against miracle because of counterspells. Against death and taxes at best it will cost 2 mana hexmage 2 mana rites. With thalia, that increases to 5mana, and without hexmage thats 6 mana which is a lot against a deck that taxes lands like D&T. Secondly they can just sword one of their creature to be above 20 life anf you need to fling twice :(.

Ethersworn Canonist: Mainly used against storm decks / omni. Basically we draw them at the same pace they draw the answers but since they have better dig engine they are better off.

Gaddock Teeg: Mainly tested against storm decks / miracles. Basically we draw them at the same pace they draw the answers but since they have better dig engine they are better off. Mixed with the mana fixing issues its not the answer we are looking for.

Meddling Mage: Seems ideal against combo / swords to plowshares but the mana cost is a real issue. It doesn't do enough work by itself to really justify a SB slot.

Tainted Pact: Adrieng says "The main idea was to have something which could be both disruption and combo pieces ; but I have concluded that it is better to have a good amount of both without something which is a bit random and slow. Adding some top does a better job here also I have prefered cutting it with library for more disruption cabal therapy increase of combo density with probe"


Tips and Tricks


General Tips

Land drops in our deck are more important than any other deck. Always keep in mind the order you play them. They can also be played in an order that would keep the opponent from knowing what deck you are on, or at least until it is too late for them to respond appropriately.

The majority of the time you will want to wait till the end of your opponents turn to make the token.

ways to make the token
T2 via Hexmage - with urborg and depths
T3 via Stage - with urborg, stage, depths
T4 via Stage - with stage, depths, 2 other lands

Crop rotation is a direct substitute for any land

Dont forget to use stage to copy utility lands like maze of ith and rishadan port until you get dark depths. Stage does not lose it’s copy ability when it copies something.

Vampire hexmage kills planeswalkers.

Playing around Pithing Needle

If your opponent casts pithing needle and you have a thespian's stage in play, use the Thespian's Stage to copy any other land in response. Since Thespian's Stage copies the name of a land as well as its other text, a Thespians Stage that has copied another land will be able to use its ability to copy Dark Depths at a later time as long as you opponent didn't name the land you just copied. Additionally, if you have Thespian's Stages sitting around that have not copied other lands, try to copy other lands with extra mana to avoid getting shut out by pithing needle.

Playing around Wasteland

The best way to work around wasteland is to make the token in response to them activating wasteland. 2 ways to force them to activate it is to either destroy their wasteland or attempt to make the token, have them activate wasteland, then make the token again with a second stage or a hexmage.

Don't forget you can copy an opponents wasteland with a thespian's stage and use it against them.

Also, bait opponents by playing one of your combo pieces and waiting for them to target it. Once they do cast crop rotation sacrificing that land.

If your opponent does not have a wasteland in play but you know they are in the deck consider making the token on your turn if your opponent does not have a way to kill your token. RUG delver is a great example, but watch out for stifle.

Playing around Karakas and Maze of Ith

There really is no way to play around these. Hope to draw a pithing needle or wait until end of turn and then destroy it or tap it with Rishidan Port. Sylvan Safekeeper has been used effectively in lists running Green Sun Zenith. not of this world has also gained favoritism recently.

Sideboard, Strategy, & Matchup Analysis

Changed Ratio's to literal descriptions of matches to better describe the match result - Please PM / post if you think these need to be changed.

Knowing what your opponent is playing is critical in this deck to really be able to make the best use of all that it has to offer. Knowing when to make your token and if the opponent has main deck or sideboard answers can make or break you.

TLDR: favorable matchups vs the majority of the field, except D&T, Miracles, S&T, Ad Nauseum, Omni, and Painter.

UR Delver Slightly Favorable - Even

Strategy
Race

Watch Out For
Price of Progress

Notes
UR can't stop Dark depths combo. They don't run wastelands like traditional delver lists. Play around daze. Post board watch out for Price of progress / blood moon.

RUG Delver Slightly Favorable - Even

more difficult than UR because of wastelands, and stifles. The deck has no way to deal with a depths token pre or post board so try hard to just resolve 1. they are not likely to have 5 mana to cast submerge.

UWR Delver Favorable

Easier than RUG but not as easy as UR. they don't typically run wastelands and swords is the only real issue. batter skull can force you to have to attack more than once so make sure to bring in artifact hate.

BUG Delver (Team America) Favorable

BUG delver is a little harder than traditional shardless bug just because they run similar threats to RUG delver. Wastelands, and some stifles. They are not nearly as bad because fewer obstacles to overcome. Depths eot isn't something they have an answer for. Hexmage hits liliana too, but she's not usually an issue.

Esper Blade Slightly Favorable

very similar to UWR. Sometimes runs wastelands.

Shardless BUG Very Favorable

Dark depths is the easy victory. make token EOT and they have no answers pre or post board. Rarely some will play diabolic edict. Sometimes they play a few wastelands, just make sure to use crop rotations in response. I honestly can't remember the last time i lost to a shards bug deck ever...

Jund Very Favorable

same as Shardless.

Death and Taxes Unfavorable

G1 is pretty bad but post board there are a lot of answers. Play carefully and try to get them to overcommit to maximize your deluges / pyroclasms. Maze helps went them off here. Winning fast is highly unlikely.

In Depth Guide here (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=1263)

Show and Tell Slightly Favorable - Even

This match isn't terrible but can be problematic. Pithing needle on Sneak / griselbrand, and tutor for karakas. G1 should be easy, but post board they have blood moons, bounce.

Reanimator Even

similar to S&T but you can also bojuka bog them. pithing needles on griselbrand and crop rotations for karakas are ideal. Watch out for tidespout because he’ll rock you.

Ad Nauseam Tendrils Slightly Unfavorable - Slightly favorable post board

this matchup isn't good because you are essentially racing. You have discard but they can win through the discard. bojuka bog for past in flames.

High Tide Favorable

similar to Ad Nauseum but slightly better because blasts help a lot. They have bounce you need to play around.

Omni Tell Even

Not great because you are racing and once they S&T they win and you can't really interact especially g1. G2 you’ve got reclamation sages and can increase discard but they also have leyline of sanctity.

Miracles UWR Unfavorable

Matchup may be better than 55:45 but i haven't had significant testing. this deck has answers to everything you want to do. Terminus swords snap caster to recur swords, and sometimes venser. The main issue is sensei's divining top so needle that and you shouldn't have too much trouble.

Elves Slightly Favorable

You are similar in speed to them but you board in lots of removal which makes it very hard for them to win g2-3.

Burn Favorable

usually pretty good match because you are faster and more consistent. Try to play around price of progress by making the token when they tap out.

Lands Slightly Favorable - Even

This match is pretty easy because they play dark depths and you can crop rotation into thespian stage to copy their dark depths and steal a victory. They can do the same so unless you have an immediate use for dark depths don't play it. Bojuka bog helps if they try to wasteland lock you but often times you are much faster.

Dredge Favorable

They can be faster than you so try to keep a hand where you can crop rotate for bojuka bog. Sejiri steppe gets through narcomeobas.

Painter Unfavorable

so this is probably the worst matchup but still not that bad. forest is an essential target here because if you cant blow up their moon effects, you lose. Rachel bomb helps under moon and expedition map as well. Needles are ok but ancient grudges allow you to get a lot of value. If you can make your token quick before blood moon great beaus their only out of bridge at that point. Otherwise you are in for a more grindy matchup. Try to save grudges for when you absolutely need them because painter can win very quickly out of nowhere.

How to identify what you are playing against and general early-game plan

I have taken this directly from Sneak & Show thread because even if you do not read that thread you should still know this information.

Now on to distinct Turn 1 plays. I will concentrate on the decks I covered in the matchups-section, but might mention other decks if the described play is very characteristic for them, too. This is relevant to legacy in general but it is important for you to be able to identify the deck your opponent is playing so you can anticipate the threats they have in their deck. Knowing this information helps you determine things like when to make your token. Although it does not sound like much that is one of the most important factors in this deck.

Fetchland - Volcanic Island - Delver of Secrets: You can be 100 % sure you are playing against a Tempo strategy, most likely RUG or UWR. If the fetchland was white, UWR is more likely, if it was green, RUG is more likely. Still, that doesn't matter, since game 1 plays out pretty much the same against those two.

Underground Sea - go: Most likely a midrange/control deck like Esper Blade or Shardless BUG. Other possibilities are combo strategies like Reanimator, ANT and TES, and even Team America as a tempo deck. However, those have a lot of proactive distinct turn 1 plays that they would rather do than passing the turn. Such as:

Underground Sea - Duress/Cabal Therapy: ANT, TES

Underground Sea - Careful Study/Entomb: Reanimator (Entomb is more likely to be cast on your own end of turn, especially if they are on the draw)

Underground Sea - Ponder: ANT, TES, Reanimator, Team America. Esper Blade sometimes has a 1-of Ponder as well, so that's also possible.

Underground Sea - Deathrite Shaman: Deathblade, Shardless BUG, Team America

Note: If the Underground Sea gets fetched with a Marsh Flats, you are most likely not playing against a BUG deck.

Rishadan Port / Karakas / Plains into Aether Vial: Death and Taxes. Rishardan Port - Vial could be Goblins as well, but Death and Taxes is far more likely in the current meta.

Volcanic Island - Ponder: Be prepared to play the mirror. Note that it might just as well be UWR Delver or RUG Delver, but be cautious to cast Show and Tell until you saw more information.

Tropical Island - Ponder: RUG Delver, Team America or Bant. If the Tropical Island got fetched off of a Windswept Heath, it's 100 % not RUG Delver or Team America. Team America is pretty unlikely anyways, since they won't fetch up Tropical Island on turn 1 to have the opportunity to Hymn to Tourach on turn 2.

Tropical Island - Delver of Secrets: RUG Delver, Team America also possible, but less likely (see above)

Tundra - go: UWr Miracles or Esper Blade / Deathblade

Tundra - Sensei's Divining Top: UWr Miracles (Doomsday is theoretically possible, but very unlikely)

Island - Sensei's Divining Top: UWr Miracles! Doomsday, Show and Tell mirror and High Tide all possible

Bayou - Deathrite Shaman: Jund, Shardless BUG, Team America (Deathblade theoretically possible)

Badlands - Deathrite Shaman: Jund (Whipflare-BUG possible :wink:)

Gemstone Mine - Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp: Dredge

Gemstone Mine - Duress: TES

Gemstone Mine - Cabal Therapy: TES, Dredge



Videos of Gameplay / Coverage


DNSolver
Deck Tech & Gameplay (https://youtu.be/SDmvVDXPOHo?list=PL89Xvn6ryd0xlkMat404yzPPlE5fthNek)

Adrieng
Video 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hXNzdtUvEw)
Video 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SouPDGfEXxw)

Prauge Eternal
Video 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyyAjno-R58) - 8th Round vs BUG Delver (G1: should have discarded Deathrite Shaman thus my opp couldn't race me¨)
Video 4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAc0Euo3B3E) - Quarerfinals vs UR Delver
Video 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U51Lxs5mPM8) - Finals vs URW Delver

Negator77
Podcast with Negator77 (http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/leaving-a-legacy/leaving-a-legacy-ep-123-turbo-depths-with-tom-hepp-negator77)

This is the first stage of the primer and I will be adding a matchup analysis and more detail as time permits. Feel free to pm me suggestion on what you would like to see added

adrieng
11-12-2014, 01:59 PM
Nice primer apple !

Some rectifications you can make but they are not very significant I play a third reclamation sage in side in the duress spot.
And I am not sure of the maindeck tabernacle maybe in side (don't have a lot of test with it).

In the jund matchup I also bring some ratchet bomb in the duress slot. -2 duress -1iok +3 ratchet bomb (answering needle) and sometimes 1 deluge on the play.

In the Ur delver matchup I bring 2/3 reclamation sage for 2/3 library answering thinks like blood moon.

TLK
11-12-2014, 03:00 PM
Awesome, thanks for this! I'm bringing the first list you posted to my LGS tomorrow and hope to crush some people with Marit Lage in our weekly Legacy tournament!

apple713
11-12-2014, 03:41 PM
Nice primer apple !

Some rectifications you can make but they are not very significant I play a third reclamation sage in side in the duress spot.
And I am not sure of the maindeck tabernacle maybe in side (don't have a lot of test with it).

In the jund matchup I also bring some ratchet bomb in the duress slot. -2 duress -1iok +3 ratchet bomb (answering needle) and sometimes 1 deluge on the play.

In the Ur delver matchup I bring 2/3 reclamation sage for 2/3 library answering thinks like blood moon.

Thanks. I have made the changes to reflect your comments.

Instead of tabernacle do you think it would be better to run a main deck sweeper like deluge or pyroclasm? Against combo, tabernacle is dead anyways. Against aggro, deluge might actually buy more time depending on how late game it is. While i favor deluge over pyroclasm because it has application against S&T it is slower, but the slowness aspect is typically only relevant against elves.

The other option would be to include Karakas in its place. Karakas helps reanimator, and S&T, but little else. When i had it main i ended up taking it out a lot.

adrieng
11-12-2014, 03:47 PM
Thanks. I have made the changes to reflect your comments.

Instead of tabernacle do you think it would be better to run a main deck sweeper like deluge or pyroclasm? Against combo, tabernacle is dead anyways. Against aggro, deluge might actually buy more time depending on how late game it is. While i favor deluge over pyroclasm because it has application against S&T it is slower, but the slowness aspect is typically only relevant against elves.

The other option would be to include Karakas in its place. Karakas helps reanimator, and S&T, but little else. When i had it main i ended up taking it out a lot.

Thanks for this change, I think I would play a card that is in side to put the tabernacle in his place. So should be that 3rd duress/thoughtseize(duress might be better here) for the main
and the tabernacle in his place in side.

Someone asked me also what about playing Chain of mephistopheles in side for all these cantrip.decks.

I think there is no space but can be a meta concern like some choke in side for miracle/blade.deck metagame.

TLK
11-12-2014, 04:12 PM
Chains also hurts our Library strategy, so we'd have to be all-in on a singleton (or 2, tops) Chains stopping opposing card draw, leaving us to forego our only source of draw. Might hurt us more than it helps?

adrieng
11-12-2014, 04:24 PM
Chains also hurts our Library strategy, so we'd have to be all-in on a singleton (or 2, tops) Chains stopping opposing card draw, leaving us to forego our only source of draw. Might hurt us more than it helps?

You are supposed to bring one-two against combo with cantrips/griselbrand and UR/Bug delver they should take the slot of library or dead cards after side.

I haven't tested that but UR/Bug delver are already favorable matchups but combo is harder.

Anyway the side is already full of good cards, there is maybe the tabernacle slot which I am unsure for now. Every thing else is proven to me.

Chatto
11-12-2014, 05:05 PM
Nice primer! Will you be putting up other sample-lists or did the old lists fall from grace?

Love your list by the way!

EDIT: Into the North will get you any Snow-Covered land. Just a minor detail.

apple713
11-12-2014, 05:46 PM
Thanks for this change, I think I would play a card that is in side to put the tabernacle in his place. So should be that 3rd duress/thoughtseize(duress might be better here) for the main
and the tabernacle in his place in side.

Someone asked me also what about playing Chain of mephistopheles in side for all these cantrip.decks.

I think there is no space but can be a meta concern like some choke in side for miracle/blade.deck metagame.

Chains just isn't good enough, ever.... if it was a leyline type card it would be so much better, but since the opponent gets at LEAST 1-2 turns to cast cantrips, against combo decks its not great. Against tempo strategies, they have threats that are more important to deal with.

If chains was a creature it would be amazing!.... oh wait spirit of the labyrinth still not good enough to see widespread play.




Nice primer! Will you be putting up other sample-lists or did the old lists fall from grace?

Love your list by the way!

EDIT: Into the North will get you any Snow-Covered land. Just a minor detail.

Thanks, and fixed

TLK
11-12-2014, 06:07 PM
You might want to add the Prague Eternal videos to the OP as well :)

apple713
11-12-2014, 06:28 PM
I feel like if this deck were to be improved it would be through the 9 flex spots. I put the following in the primer, but i didn't draw attention to them. Are there cards that would fill the roles better than discard / red blasts?

Disruption: improve matchup vs combo (
Removal: improve matchup vs aggro (kill creatures, give yourself more time)
Protection: improve matchup vs control / heavy removal (swords, karakas, bounce, terminus)





You might want to add the Prague Eternal videos to the OP as well :)
done

TLK
11-12-2014, 06:45 PM
In testing against a few friends they questioned the need for red in the deck. Are there any blue cards we're incredibly afraid of? Having tutors get countered is annoying, but not semi-backbreaking like eating a Swords to Plowshares. Discard effects can take counters if we are that worried. I realize the Blasts also kill flipped Delvers and Cliques to clear the way for the token. Having access to red sideboard cards like Grudge and Pyroclasm is nice, but Grudge can be replaced by more Sages/Krosan Grip, and Pyroclasm can potentially be replaced by more Deluge or Engineered Plague (Elementals vs UR Delver, Elves vs Elves, Human vs DnT). I'm not saying that red is definitely replaceable, I'm just playing devil's advocate to spark some discussion. I personally like the deck as-is, but it's worth discussing.

apple713
11-12-2014, 06:56 PM
In testing against a few friends they questioned the need for red in the deck. Are there any blue cards we're incredibly afraid of? Having tutors get countered is annoying, but not semi-backbreaking like eating a Swords to Plowshares. Discard effects can take counters if we are that worried. I realize the Blasts also kill flipped Delvers and Cliques to clear the way for the token. Having access to red sideboard cards like Grudge and Pyroclasm is nice, but Grudge can be replaced by more Sages/Krosan Grip, and Pyroclasm can potentially be replaced by more Deluge or Engineered Plague (Elementals vs UR Delver, Elves vs Elves, Human vs DnT). I'm not saying that red is definitely replaceable, I'm just playing devil's advocate to spark some discussion. I personally like the deck as-is, but it's worth discussing.

maybe I should add a comprehensive list of problem cards the deck encounters in the meta? That would probably make it easier for people to generate ideas on how to deal with the most common ones main deck.

I'll add this section to the primer when i have some time. Feel free to make suggestions on other cards to be on the look out for.

TLK
11-12-2014, 07:33 PM
I'd say the most problematic cards (in semi-order from most devastating to somewhat annoying) is as follows:

Swords to Plowshares
Wasteland
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Other bounce effects (Vapor Snag, Jace, etc)
Blood Moon
Terminus
Opposing Pithing Needle
Counterspells
Discard effects
Edict effects (Liliana, etc. - only awkward if we have Hexmage and Depths in play or we don't EOT the token creation)
Submerge (we're pretty set here with the singleton Forest)

Anything I'm missing?

apple713
11-12-2014, 07:41 PM
I'd say the most problematic cards (in semi-order from most devastating to somewhat annoying) is as follows:

Swords to Plowshares
Wasteland
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Other bounce effects (Vapor Snag, Jace, etc)
Blood Moon
Opposing Pithing Needle
Counterspells
Discard effects
Edict effects (Liliana, etc. - only awkward if we have Hexmage and Depths in play or we don't EOT the token creation)
Submerge (we're pretty set here with the singleton Forest)

Anything I'm missing?

i've added the section "Issues the Deck Faces"

counterspells don't really affect this deck. Mainly its because we can draw into the combo and the land drops are uncounterable. Lands cannot be discarded either. Its really awkward for opponent when they duress you and see you have the combo in hand and then just concede because their deck literally has 0 answers.

TLK
11-12-2014, 07:45 PM
Right, that's why I listed them toward the bottom. They can slow us down by countering a Library or making us discard tutors, but there is very little they can do about us naturally drawing our 4-of combo pieces, which are lands. That's why I raised the question about the need for maideck blasts/red in general.

I think Terminus is actually a pretty big annoyance, and isn't something we can really do much about, aside from Needle on Top to only leave them Brainstorm as an out.

Edit I'd also add Port to the "less likely to encounter" cards, depending on how represented DnT is in a given meta.

apple713
11-12-2014, 09:14 PM
Right, that's why I listed them toward the bottom. They can slow us down by countering a Library or making us discard tutors, but there is very little they can do about us naturally drawing our 4-of combo pieces, which are lands. That's why I raised the question about the need for maideck blasts/red in general.

I think Terminus is actually a pretty big annoyance, and isn't something we can really do much about, aside from Needle on Top to only leave them Brainstorm as an out.

Edit I'd also add Port to the "less likely to encounter" cards, depending on how represented DnT is in a given meta.

so i compiled some data but I'm not sure exactly how to make the best use of it. I took all of the cards in the meta from mtgtop8 for all of 2014. I separated them out by total, main deck, and sideboard.

I figured it might be useful to ensure that we pick the best cards to combat the threats we are most likely to encounter. The only thing i don't think the data takes into consideration is how harmful each effect is to our deck.

Let me know what you guys think about this. I can link the excel file if anyone wants it, just pm me.

click to enlarge

http://i.imgur.com/tsPvUBml.png (http://imgur.com/tsPvUBm)

TLK
11-12-2014, 09:37 PM
Forgo to mention that Extirpate/Surgical Extraction post board is kinda lights out for us, no?

If we expect it after game 1 we could always side in our Bog to Crop Rotate into it removing our own graveyard, but that only works in response to Surgical since Extirpate has Split Second

apple713
11-12-2014, 09:49 PM
Forgo to mention that Extirpate/Surgical Extraction post board is kinda lights out for us, no?

If we expect it after game 1 we could always side in our Bog to Crop Rotate into it removing our own graveyard, but that only works in response to Surgical since Extirpate has Split Second

true however, i can't say that I've ever been too worried about that extreme corner case just because i'll usually be able to get 1 token out of it. are there decks in which we would need to make multiple tokens that are running surgical / extirpate that we should be worried about?

TLK
11-12-2014, 09:54 PM
Well any deck can run Surgical. Extirpate is definitely more niche, which is good since we can't really do anything about it. All a deck has to do is Waste Depths or Swords our token after we make one then Surgical us out of the game. Slaughter Games is game over as well but hopefully we win by turn 4, as Jund is typically the only deck running that in the board, and we have access to discard.

apple713
11-12-2014, 10:00 PM
Well any deck can run Surgical. Extirpate is definitely more niche, which is good since we can't really do anything about it. All a deck has to do is Waste Depths or Swords our token after we make one then Surgical us out of the game. Slaughter Games is game over as well but hopefully we win by turn 4, as Jund is typically the only deck running that in the board, and we have access to discard.

after looking at the numbers an overwhelming 21.3% of decks have it in their sideboard, with an average of 2 being run. Accordingly i have adjusted the numbers to reflect it as an appropriate threat.

how would you use the data I gathered?



This suggestion might be off the walls, but meddling mage might be worth a look. Naming swords it gets the primary removal spell we are concerned with and abrupt decay for when opponent hits our pithing needles. Furthermore, it is proactive against combo decks and fast enough to be considered.

Also considering abrupt decay just because it is uncounterable, and serves almost the same purpose as pyroblast. Doesn't hit shot and tell / omni decks but hits many targets REB doesn't.

TLK
11-12-2014, 10:15 PM
I would probably start by assessing which cards are most effective against us, then using your data to see how represented those cards are. For instance, Swords to Plowshares is public enemy #1, but, hypothetically speaking, if nobody was playing it, I wouldn't worry about it. Make sense?

edit I've definitely thought about Meddling Mage, but given the current manabase, hitting blue/white would mean we need 2 City of Brass/Gemstone out of only 6 available. Granted, we would search them up, but it seems we'd rather be searching for combo pieces.

apple713
11-12-2014, 10:21 PM
I would probably start by assessing which cards are most effective against us, then using your data to see how represented those cards are. For instance, Swords to Plowshares is public enemy #1, but, hypothetically speaking, if nobody was playing it, I wouldn't worry about it. Make sense?

well ya but logically, cards like not of this world should be included because it stops swords to plowshares, Karakas, all bounce spells, venser, flicker wisp, maze. We have decided though because it ends up being a dead card in many cases and doesn't contribute to the overall consistency it shouldn't be included. Maybe thats incorrect reasoning?


***EDIT

discard vs counterspells: basically 1 is proactive and the other is reactive. while discard allows them to draw into threats, counterspells require us to keep mana open the turn we are making the token.

cards that could help are spells that grant protection, hex proof, or shroud. ideally they will also be able to do something else other than just that or else we might as well just use not of this world.

TLK
11-12-2014, 10:25 PM
No, I think that's still OK. I was just trying to get us a starting point. Using your example, a card (Not of This World) was found and tested, and proved to be not all that great. Analyzing where our problems lie, and how represented they are, enables us to come up with options to battle these things. It just turns out that Not of This World wasn't one of them. This is a good way to find new tools, though, in my opinion.

edit That's accurate. I haven't tested w/Not of This World, so I'm taking the consensus' word for it. I think it trumps cards like Vines of Vastwood, though, since it's free. Vines protects Hexmage if we need to drop it before we draw Depths, but I don't think that's really concerning.

apple713
11-12-2014, 10:47 PM
also considering but such limited application. maybe spells kite has the most merit because he can block.

apostle's blessing
spellskite
dispel

TLK
11-12-2014, 10:50 PM
Blessing can at least protect Pithing Needle, but still might be a little too conditional. Spellskite requires you to have it in play before you make the token, which could slow down our deck by a turn in certain situations. Dispel would be OK as a replacement for the Blasts if we ran blue instead of red.

apple713
11-12-2014, 11:20 PM
i feel like discard is better than red blasts

drop of honey seems like a cheap way to buy a couple of turns

hull breach also seems interesting because under a moon effect you will have red, and you will already need green for a reclamation sage but it allows you to get additional value.

TLK
11-12-2014, 11:39 PM
Drop of Honey is interesting. Yes, it does buy us turns against decks only dropping a threat/turn, but I think in the first few turns of the game we want to be setting up our combo (Map, Scrying, Library) or being disruptive in terms of cards that hurt us (discard effects to take their answers to token, Pithing Needle on Wasteland/Karakas/etc.). I could see Drop of Honey being a decent sideboard card if it wasn't for our cheap mass removal. Plus, we have Maze to buy us turns against decks only dropping a single threat.

As for Hull Breach, of the decks that run Blood Moon, how many also run problematic artifacts? Some Miracles decks might run Blood Moon, so we could two-for-one Blood Moon/Counterbalance and force a Top activation. Any others? It's a nice option, though, since we're already running artifact/enchantment destruction in our board.

edit I had a good suggestion as I was typing the above response, but now I have forgotten it. :/

apple713
11-12-2014, 11:58 PM
Drop of Honey is interesting. Yes, it does buy us turns against decks only dropping a threat/turn, but I think in the first few turns of the game we want to be setting up our combo (Map, Scrying, Library) or being disruptive in terms of cards that hurt us (discard effects to take their answers to token, Pithing Needle on Wasteland/Karakas/etc.). I could see Drop of Honey being a decent sideboard card if it wasn't for our cheap mass removal. Plus, we have Maze to buy us turns against decks only dropping a single threat.

As for Hull Breach, of the decks that run Blood Moon, how many also run problematic artifacts? Some Miracles decks might run Blood Moon, so we could two-for-one Blood Moon/Counterbalance and force a Top activation. Any others? It's a nice option, though, since we're already running artifact/enchantment destruction in our board.

edit I had a good suggestion as I was typing the above response, but now I have forgotten it. :/

@ hull breach - really only painter. i guess it just sucks that we have so many slots in our sideboard dedicated to art/enchantment removal.

@ drop - i was thinking that it is likely to be a t3 play that way the opponent would have 2 creatures on the board, and either stop casting creatures till drop died, or keep playing creatures to race it. What i was thinking is that if they try and race it, it might slow em down enough. If they wait it out, surly it will have slowed them down.

if we have 1 maze of ith out it becomes so much more powerful against a board of 3 creatures.

I has other applications as well. against S&T, it can kill an emrakul and griselbrand. Against reanimatior, iona will probably never name green. The ability does not target, so it hits things like TNN as well.

TLK
11-13-2014, 12:11 AM
That's true. The ability only triggers during our upkeep, though, so it doesn't stop a Sneak Attack (although Needle on Sneak Attack will). I think you raise a good point and it's definitely worth testing. My main point was that we have other sideboard options (Pyroclasm/Bomb/Deluge) to wipe out opposing threats. Drop is cheap, though, and is a recurring effect until the board is wiped. I agree that we have a lot of sideboard slots dedicated to artifact/enchant removal. I've also considered making room for a Grafdigger's Cage or some other form of graveyard hate on top of Bog. If we could fit the Containment Priest somehow, that would solve the S&T issue as well.

apple713
11-13-2014, 12:28 AM
nice catch on containment priest

could containment priest eliminate any of our sideboard cards?

Sneak n Show:
- Show and Tell
- Sneak Attack

Dredge:
- Ichorid
- Narcomoeba
- Nether Shadow
- Dread Return

Reanimator:
- Reanimate
- Exhume
- Show and Tell
- Animate Dead

Elves:
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Natural Order

Vial Decks (Goblins, Death N Taxes):
- AEther Vial

Nic Fit:
- Chord of Calling (not played much but still)
- Birthing Pod (again, not seen often but in a handful of Nic Fit decks)


Goblin Welder grabbing creatures
Transmute Artifact grabbing creatures
Goblin Lackey
kuldotha forgemaster

TLK
11-13-2014, 12:37 AM
Yes, I think that was the card I was thinking of when I said I had a good idea above. Suggesting Grafdigger's Cage made me remember. It shuts down A LOT of stuff. That said, I'm not sure it could necessarily replace anything, but I think it's worth finding room for as a catch-all. Maybe it could replace the extra discard effects?

Lio
11-13-2014, 01:09 AM
Great idea to create a brand new thread for this marvellous deck. Good job apple!

What do you find so problematic about Sneak'n'Show matchup? My biggest concern is about T1 fatty or Blood Moon. But nuts is a nuts and our T1 discard into T2 token is also very difficult to beat for pretty much everything. With discard, pyroblasts and the inevitability of Marit Lage I kinda like the matchup. I also run SB Karakas to fight through Emrakul/Griselbrand. Karakas + Krosan Grip blanks even Sneak Attack.

I will try singleton Not of this World in the sideboard against 12post, Karakas, Flickerwisps (storm plays 2 SB!), etc. as a complement to a discard. I've lost to Karakas way too often.

@Red - With the 80+% of the decks running blue keeping red blasts main seems good enough to me. I like aggressively going for their first cantrip as these decks tend to keep mediocre hands with BS as a fix. And Pyroclasms and Ancient Grudges are gold now.

@Surgical Extraction - I am scared of this card. The strongest combination is with Hymn to Tourach. Luckily for us Treasure Cruise seems to push Hymn to Tourach out of the format. Otherwise we can play discard before going for combo or putting our Dark Depths into play against Wasteland decks. I met Surgical Extraction few times during the tournament in Prague and I've either discarded it or I had a token in play and my opponent didn't have an answer to it. So whenever I feel our opponent might play it, I try to keep main as much discard as possible.

@Containment Priest - do we really need her? Someone in the previous thread said the Elves is good matchup anyway. Dredge also seems beatable with Dark Depths. Reanimator is kinda tricky and Priest/Cage would help here a lot. As well as Karakas. But I expect lot of decks running this card to mitigate the amount of Reanimators running around. Manabase won't support effectively casting Priest on time. We would have to swap Copperline Gorge for WG fast lands and swap red for white.


To adrieng - I know you once wrote you've playtested blue splash. How was it?

TLK
11-13-2014, 01:18 AM
I can get on board with most everything you said. Not sure about the S&T matchup, but with Grip/Needle/Karakas/discard it shouldn't be an issue. The Priest has game against a lot of decks, but we may already have those decks covered, and as you said it might not be worth dropping red for.

Ps your sweater in the Prague videos is awesome haha

apple713
11-13-2014, 01:58 AM
Great idea to create a brand new thread for this marvellous deck. Good job apple!

What do you find so problematic about Sneak'n'Show matchup? My biggest concern is about T1 fatty or Blood Moon. But nuts is a nuts and our T1 discard into T2 token is also very difficult to beat for pretty much everything. With discard, pyroblasts and the inevitability of Marit Lage I kinda like the matchup. I also run SB Karakas to fight through Emrakul/Griselbrand. Karakas + Krosan Grip blanks even Sneak Attack.

I will try singleton Not of this World in the sideboard against 12post, Karakas, Flickerwisps (storm plays 2 SB!), etc. as a complement to a discard. I've lost to Karakas way too often.

@Red - With the 80+% of the decks running blue keeping red blasts main seems good enough to me. I like aggressively going for their first cantrip as these decks tend to keep mediocre hands with BS as a fix. And Pyroclasms and Ancient Grudges are gold now.

@Surgical Extraction - I am scared of this card. The strongest combination is with Hymn to Tourach. Luckily for us Treasure Cruise seems to push Hymn to Tourach out of the format. Otherwise we can play discard before going for combo or putting our Dark Depths into play against Wasteland decks. I met Surgical Extraction few times during the tournament in Prague and I've either discarded it or I had a token in play and my opponent didn't have an answer to it. So whenever I feel our opponent might play it, I try to keep main as much discard as possible.

@Containment Priest - do we really need her? Someone in the previous thread said the Elves is good matchup anyway. Dredge also seems beatable with Dark Depths. Reanimator is kinda tricky and Priest/Cage would help here a lot. As well as Karakas. But I expect lot of decks running this card to mitigate the amount of Reanimators running around. Manabase won't support effectively casting Priest on time. We would have to swap Copperline Gorge for WG fast lands and swap red for white.


To adrieng - I know you once wrote you've playtested blue splash. How was it?

well when i was testing adrieng's list it doesn't have karakas anywhere in the 75 which may be a mistake. G1 karakas makes S&T worthless and needle thwarts sneak attack. G2-3 you have to worry about blood moon but its not terrible because of reclamation sage. Maybe Karakas is necessary in main vs S&T and reanimator.

REB - even though it has lots of targets, it doesn't actually improve our consistency as a tutor or protect our token. Against combo decks its only effective against S&T (including omni) and high tide (do ppl still play that?). Yeah i guess against 12 post it hits bounce spells but if we are using it to combat bounce spells, maybe we should just run more discard?

Blue splash seems awkward. The first card that comes to mind is spell pierce but its conditional if they have 2 mana open. this isn't optimal when you have to rely on it to counter a stp. if opponent sees it game 1 they'll just make sure they have mana open for game 2.

lets take a closer look at dispel. This card is something i could possibly favor over REB.

Swords to Plowshares
Surgical Extraction
Submerge
Stifle

Echoing Truth
Chain of Vapor
Diabolic Edict
Path to Exile
Fire // Ice
Wipe Away
Repeal
Rushing River
Vapor Snag

Outside of the cards that are problematic for us it also gets

brainstorm
lightning bolt
price of progress
fireblast
ad nauseum
dark ritual
crop rotation
force of will
spell pierce
entomb

other than creatures, dispel hits more targets, that are seemingly more important. If only swan song gave a non flying token, that would be ideal...hitting blood moon and sneak attack too.


Even If you ran all blue cards in the 9 flex spots and switched out the sylvan scryings for brainstorms or ponders, you still couldn't run force of will.

You would have to take out the sylvan libraries and sylvan scrying in addition to the 9 flex spot to have at least 16 blue cards and even then its a little low. You would likely end up with 4 FOW, 4 brainstorms, 3 ponder, 4 dispel, 1 spell pierce. seems clunky especially since you might find yourself without blue card for FOW occasionally. Not to mention that many of the cards that come out in sideboards would be the blue ones we have replaced discard spells with.

Running blue significantly improves the combo matchup tho if we can commit to it. You could even consider running swan song against combo decks because its unlikely they'll have an answer to the token once its made.

Blue could be worth testing. I don't think brainstorm / ponder are as good as sylvan library / sylvan scrying, but maybe... you could argue that you could take out expedition map because you have counterspells for blood moons but at this point we're changing a lot of the core of the deck and reconstructing something. I'm not opposed but now you have to take a lot of factors into consideration. Brainstorm isn't great without fetch lands. Even with fetch lands combo decks durdle hoping to find what they need. Sylvan scrying / expedition map are so much better at getting us exactly what we want.

Chatto
11-13-2014, 02:28 AM
Blue could be worth testing. I don't think brainstorm / ponder are as good as sylvan library / sylvan scrying, but maybe... you could argue that you could take out expedition map because you have counterspells for blood moons but at this point we're changing a lot of the core of the deck and reconstructing something. I'm not opposed but now you have to take a lot of factors into consideration. Brainstorm isn't great without fetch lands. Even with fetch lands combo decks durdle hoping to find what they need. Sylvan scrying / expedition map are so much better at getting us exactly what we want.

If looking into Blue, I suggest taking a look at 'Farmville'

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppar14/day2#7

It's pretty fun to play (if I may believe Kasper, who I know from my meta here)

apple713
11-13-2014, 02:45 AM
If looking into Blue, I suggest taking a look at 'Farmville'

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppar14/day2#7

It's pretty fun to play (if I may believe Kasper, who I know from my meta here)

i shuffled it up a few times and it felt very clunky. idk how to describe it, maybe i was too quick to judge.

theoretically it has everything but it gets destroyed by wasteland. relying on loam isn't great in this meta. 50% of the decks run wasteland and thats just too high not to have a main deck answer to something that is gonna wreck you 50% of the time. Intuition is great but with DRS in the other 50% of the meta intuition becomes subpar... maybe running wishes alleviates that concern.

what did u think when u played it? Compare it to the other versions you have played.

adrieng
11-13-2014, 03:10 AM
To adrieng - I know you once wrote you've playtested blue splash. How was it?
Yeah I tested a 8 cantrip deck list and it was worse, slower the manabase was worse ; but you could find your library/needle more easily.
Everything tempoish was worse.

Though the deck right now is very good positioned red blas/pyroblast is very good it kills delver stopping their clock counters fow/show and tell kills jace and so on (bounces etc..).
Delver matchups wouldn't be so good without them.
It can act as a double backup by example when you crop for sejiri you can reb their counters.

There is one other way to play around terminus it is too grudge their top EOT before making the token, so that they have to draw.

Red splash is awesome reb grudge and pyroclasme are all needed in this deck.

I am not too worried about the sneak show matchup we have needle for sneak attack, vampire+dark depth where they need to chumpblock the token through show and tell and 6-7 discard+3 reb.

We are one of the deck which has the more hate really. After side we only fear blood moon and through the breach.

Chatto
11-13-2014, 03:34 AM
i shuffled it up a few times and it felt very clunky. idk how to describe it, maybe i was too quick to judge.

theoretically it has everything but it gets destroyed by wasteland. relying on loam isn't great in this meta. 50% of the decks run wasteland and thats just too high not to have a main deck answer to something that is gonna wreck you 50% of the time. Intuition is great but with DRS in the other 50% of the meta intuition becomes subpar... maybe running wishes alleviates that concern.

what did u think when u played it? Compare it to the other versions you have played.

Well, I proxied it, but I never felt completly comfortable with the list. Just like you stated, it feels heavely GY-dependend. That, and the use of LW (while giving some protection) makes this deck slow IMHO

And don't forget: Blood Moon Effects are the Bomb right now!

adrieng
11-13-2014, 02:43 PM
Ok some little change on the side in side out you can make apple :
I don't think there is one way to side which is strictly better than an other depedns when you draw your hate ; whether you are on the play on
the draw if you expect surgical or others hate.
Once I was wondering whether playing one creeping tar in side to fight surgical decks you can copy them with stage.
So in the Rug delver matchup you can bring BOTH bomb and pyroclasme (mosty if they play YP in some versions but still ok as one off other way)
Same thing for Bug delver/esper I often enter one or two pyroclasme.
In the death and taxes matchup I bring all three sage might cut one kozilek for that, cause these games are often slow.
I think I might keep the tabernacle here.
For show and tell you can cut the tabernacle.
In the ANT matchup I cut all four needles. Library are better here I keep all four.
In the painter matchup keeping at least 3-4 map they fetch basic forest with colorless mana.
I cut some kozilek for them.

In the miracle matchup I bring all three sage. You can cut one maze for that. You should keep one maze though but not two. You should cut the tabernacle here.

Wozmaz90
11-13-2014, 02:52 PM
Hi guys,

Long time fan of decks that win with the depths combo. I have been playing around with a version that is a little less focused on the combo and a little more focused on utility. (to be honest, I am not even sure if this is where I should be posting it-- If not, guide me in the right direction please :cool: ).


4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
3 Punishing Fire
3 Crop Rotation



1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Barren Moor
2 Savannah
2 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dark Depths
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Maze of Ith
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy




SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Thalia
SB: 1 Sejiri Steppe
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Grove of the Burnwillows
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman


A few things to note about my deck:

1). I have a GSZ package for grabbing creatures from CMC 1 to 3 (dryad, DRS, gaddock teeg, and knight). I feel the redundancy is great for the grindy matches while also giving me what I need in the moment. GSZ is great for stopping FOW, Turnabout, Natural order, entreat, jace, dread return, and many others that make him worth the inclusion. Yes there may be a slight bit of anti-syngery if you draw another GSZ but I think the utility is well worth it. I have been testing a 1 of DRS lately and I really like it for mirror matches or getting him down early against a deck wanting to abuse treasure cruise. GSZ acts as Knight 5-6 as well. And GSZ on turn 1 for dryad has been a great tempo boost.



2) I am using the living wish board to make the combo more consistent while also giving myself some silver bullets.

3) I utilize MD crop rotation for adding particular lands to my MD for games 2-3. Examples of these would be Sejiri steppe (not so great as a wish target, but there have been a few times where it has allowed me to push through my 20/20 past a delver, strix, or angel token), bojuka bog, and tabernacle while siding out lands I don't need. The rest are meant as strictly being wish targets. While this can be risky (drawing a wish when you SB'd in the land you need) I feel the benefit of instant speed crop rotation without cluttering the MD with the silver bullets helps the consistency.

4) I play a fourth color for 3 punishing fires MD and 2 groves. I play a third grove in the SB as a wish target.





The benefit of not being so reliant on the depths combo is that I don't need to MD pithing needle meaning I can play my own wastelands as disruption as well. I feel that having more lines gives you a better chance of winning when someone does draw into a hate piece for the combo. An example of this would be the last game I just played vs miracles. I made at least 4 20/20's that all died to swords to plowshares and terminus. I eventually top decked a knight who won the game for me as a 16/16.




Any thoughts?

TLK
11-13-2014, 03:19 PM
Your deck is probably more suited for the Junk thread, but I used to play Junk Depths to much success back when Mental Misstep was legal. It's definitely a really solid deck with a core of legit threats that also has the "oops, I win!" combo at its grasp. Being more of a midrange shell means it can be more controlling and not as fragile, but you may encounter different matchup analysis than what you've read in this primer. I have more experience with a deck like yours than the one I'm trying to contribute to now. It's definitely a good deck.

I would try to stick a Wasteland in your board so you can find it with both Living Wish if you don't have a Crop Rotation.

apple713
11-13-2014, 05:15 PM
Hi guys,

~junk list

Any thoughts?

this is probably better suited for another thread. The goal here is to actually be an all in deck. i agree with what TLK said. Your version has its own merits and is just a strategy the people on this thread are probably not looking to embrace. it plays a much more grind game than i think we are looking for.

really your deck is almost a dark maverick that just for lack of better term, "half asses" the combo.

TLK
11-14-2014, 01:22 AM
So, good news. Went undefeated tonight at my LGS' weekly Legacy tournament, splitting first place with a Lands deck also running the combo. Go figure. It was my first time piloting the deck in a non-casual environment, so I may have made some misplays, but if I did, they didn't seem to cost me.

Round 1: Death and Taxes. I win 2-0. First game was fairly easy. I played my lands in such an order that I don't think he really knew what I was doing. Second game, he landed Batterskull and gained some life before I could find my combo pieces. That bought him some time, as did StP on my first token, Flickerwisp on my second. I finally get there with my third token.

Round 2: Painter. Game 1 I win on I believe the third turn. Game 2 I lose to Magus of the Moon. Add that to the list of problematic cards. Game 3 I won via REB on his FoW on my Crop Rotation for Thespian's Stage. Woo!

Round 3: Tezzeret Helm Combo. Game 1 I make a token on turn 2, much to the dismay of my opponent. Game 2, he gets unlucky and mulls to 5. I have two discard effects so he basically folds to my combo on the third/fourth turn.

Round 4: Split top prize with Lands running Depths/Stage.

Deck was amazing. Only dropped a single game. I love playing this deck already! I'll comment more later on the matches/sideboarding/problem cards, but it's late and wanted to share my first real experience with the deck.

Lio
11-14-2014, 04:40 AM
Nice performance. DnT is difficult matchup if they have good Wasteland/Karakas draws.

I wouldn't consider Magus of the Moon as a problematic card. We have two options here:

1) just play Pyroclasm with the Mountains. I bring Grudges, Seize, some Pyroclasms, Grip/Sage against them and I feel like they just can't win post board. I've tested this matchup a LOT and I've lost one game post board to combo(1 of 10 or so). Pyroclasm kills all creatures except Painter (which dies to Grudge) and buys you significant amount of time to set the Ratchet Bomb up.
2) Play Ratchet Bomb and blow up at 3. Their hate costs exactly 3 mana - Bridges, Magus, Blood Moon. Sweet :).

What is more annoying is MonoR Painter player who is familiar with our deck and just plays Blood Moon and kills us with Simian Spirit Guide. Unless he sets Painter@Blue, we can't win G1. Btw I board Pyroblasts out in this MU if my opponent knows what is going on or had seen Pyroblasts in G1.

Dosferra
11-14-2014, 05:49 AM
I'm a bit late to the party, being a Dark Depths connoisseur myself, just want to say mad props to Lio for the Prague Eternal 2nd place.

Very impressive!

And a followup question, during the course of the tournament, how often did you feel the opponents knew what kind of deck they were facing?
What I'm asking is, how often did your opponents make mistakes (in your view) that gave you a significant advantage, because they could not properly identify what they were up against?

Lio
11-14-2014, 08:02 AM
Thanks!

Admittedly they didn't know what I am up to in the most cases in the first games. Sometimes my opponents asked me what the hell do I play. But after the first game they correctly sideboarded and bring in land and token hate. So yes, I had an advantage. But sometimes this advantage was useless as my opponent played T1 Delver, T2 Wasteland and countered all my spells. What else to do with Delver, right? He would do the same if he knew my deck. In other cases they probably had a clue what I am up to, but they couldn't do much with it :D. Needle for Wasteland into Discard, find a combo piece on T3, T4 token with granted 'unblockability' with Sejiri Steppe. The biggest mistake made my DnT opponent who Wastelanded my early useless land drops to put himself in a bad spot when I needled his Vial. I've reached second place not because my opponents made (mostly) mistakes due to the rogue factor, but because this deck is really strong. And the lady Luck was on my side as I did several mistakes through the course of the tournament. (you can see the video ..).

TLK
11-14-2014, 10:00 AM
Nice performance. DnT is difficult matchup if they have good Wasteland/Karakas draws.

I wouldn't consider Magus of the Moon as a problematic card. We have two options here:

1) just play Pyroclasm with the Mountains. I bring Grudges, Seize, some Pyroclasms, Grip/Sage against them and I feel like they just can't win post board. I've tested this matchup a LOT and I've lost one game post board to combo(1 of 10 or so). Pyroclasm kills all creatures except Painter (which dies to Grudge) and buys you significant amount of time to set the Ratchet Bomb up.
2) Play Ratchet Bomb and blow up at 3. Their hate costs exactly 3 mana - Bridges, Magus, Blood Moon. Sweet :).

What is more annoying is MonoR Painter player who is familiar with our deck and just plays Blood Moon and kills us with Simian Spirit Guide. Unless he sets Painter@Blue, we can't win G1. Btw I board Pyroblasts out in this MU if my opponent knows what is going on or had seen Pyroblasts in G1.

Yeah, his was some weird build of Painter, and I won so fast game 1 that I didn't even know what deck he was playing, so I didn't know to side Pyroclasm. I definiteiy did for game 3.

apple713
11-14-2014, 11:12 AM
Round 1: Death and Taxes. I win 2-0. First game was fairly easy. I played my lands in such an order that I don't think he really knew what I was doing. Second game, he landed Batterskull and gained some life before I could find my combo pieces. That bought him some time, as did StP on my first token, Flickerwisp on my second. I finally get there with my third token..

Round 4: Split top prize with Lands running Depths/Stage.

Deck was amazing. Only dropped a single game. I love playing this deck already! I'll comment more later on the matches/sideboarding/problem cards, but it's late and wanted to share my first real experience with the deck.

good point about playing your lands in a special order. adding that to the primer. its something i do but didn't think to communicate.

you are generally favored in the lands matchup because their deck is readily identifiable but ours isn't so much. if they play depths you can just copy it with a stage. be careful that doesn't happen in the reverse. if you are able to bog away their loam its a lack luster deck. needle on stage and u can make the token with hexmage.

TLK
11-14-2014, 11:24 AM
good point about playing your lands in a special order. adding that to the primer. its something i do but didn't think to communicate.

you are generally favored in the lands matchup because their deck is readily identifiable but ours isn't so much. if they play depths you can just copy it with a stage. be careful that doesn't happen in the reverse. if you are able to bog away their loam its a lack luster deck. needle on stage and u can make the token with hexmage.

Yeah, I was really careful not to let the cat out of the bag in game 1s until I had the combo, which paid off.

Lands player was sitting next to me most of the night so he had an idea what I was up to. Pretty sure I could've won but all his matches went to time and I didn't feel like being there another hour as it was already late haha.

apple713
11-15-2014, 02:37 PM
list that won a grinder for gp nj. This leads me to believe the deck has much greater potential than is being represented right now. This list seems terrible. Dark ritual and lotus petal seem like wasted cards. if speed is what he wanted it seems like he should have taken a different approach like my list in the op.

Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery (10)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

Land (21)
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage


Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Life from the Loam
2 Not of the World
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction

Dosferra
11-16-2014, 06:44 AM
Thanks!

I've reached second place not because my opponents made (mostly) mistakes due to the rogue factor, but because this deck is really strong. And the lady Luck was on my side as I did several mistakes through the course of the tournament. (you can see the video ..).

And thank you for the extensive reply!

I was in no way trying to insinuate that your placing was simply due to the rogue factor or anything like that, sorry if it came of as that.
Was simply asking out of curiosity. I’ve played Dark Depths in Loam Pox, Junk/Knight midrange and, currently, Lands and would guesstimate that somewhere between 5-10% of my wins come from opponents not making the correct choices. Which is, in my mind, a lot.
The misplays come not so much because of the combo itself, but rather the ways we tutor, protect and disrupt.

So I was simply wondering how it is down on the Continent in regard to this :)

apple713
11-16-2014, 06:59 AM
And thank you for the extensive reply!

I was in no way trying to insinuate that your placing was simply due to the rogue factor or anything like that, sorry if it came of as that.
Was simply asking out of curiosity. I’ve played Dark Depths in Loam Pox, Junk/Knight midrange and, currently, Lands and would guesstimate that somewhere between 5-10% of my wins come from opponents not making the correct choices. Which is, in my mind, a lot.
The misplays come not so much because of the combo itself, but rather the ways we tutor, protect and disrupt.

So I was simply wondering how it is down on the Continent in regard to this :)

i would say that you will probably steal some games due to rouge factor. It happens quite often because they don't know whats in your deck, or sideboard. if game 1 ends very quickly they may not anticipate pithing needles or expedition maps. if they only see hexmage, an early pithing needle might name that instead of stage.

you will even steal games from players who do not understand the rules because dark depths is worded weirdly. (stifle dark depths sacrifice trigger). you never have a good feeling when that happens, but in competitive play like a GP, winning is winning.

apple713
11-16-2014, 07:08 PM
if anyone has any information on the 2 Dark depths's decks that made it to Day 2 of GP NJ I'd love to know.

apple713
11-18-2014, 01:11 AM
I didn't want to post the list and such here just because its not really all in on dark depths but I've been trying to formulate a chalice of the void deck with sufficient consistency and i think i might be close. It runs Dark depths combo, with natural order. Has some really strong t2-t3 plays, slightly faster than the current list in the OP and different strategy wise.

you can view the thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28838-Deck-Chalice-of-the-Dark-Order&p=849527#post849527)

hovercraft
11-20-2014, 12:04 PM
I didn't want to post the list and such here just because its not really all in on dark depths but I've been trying to formulate a chalice of the void deck with sufficient consistency and i think i might be close. It runs Dark depths combo, with natural order. Has some really strong t2-t3 plays, slightly faster than the current list in the OP and different strategy wise.

you can view the thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28838-Deck-Chalice-of-the-Dark-Order&p=849527#post849527)

I run a Loam Pox list with both Chalice and the Depths combo (Living Wish as the enabler)

TLK
11-20-2014, 02:11 PM
Going to try to defend my crown tonight at our weekly Legacy event. If I can get my hands on Toxic Deluge beforehand I will fit 2 into my board. If not, I'll run the same 75.

TLK
11-21-2014, 02:06 AM
Finished 3-1 tonight. Misplayed badly in round 3.

Round 1 vs Junk home brew

Nothing much of note here. He was on a budget deck without Wasteland. Easy 2-0.

Round 2 vs Elves

Discard effects bought me enough turns to make a token in game 1. Game 2 he mulls and keeps a 1-lander with Deathrite. I Needle Deathrite and he drops an Arbor and another elf. My turn 2 I cast Pyroclasm to clear his board of all but a land. He drops a few elves over the next few turns as I try to cobble up my combo pieces. He finds Needle for Stage the turn before I can go off, but Sylvan Library finds me a Ratchet Bomb and a turn later I blow up the Needles and all his elves and make my token the following turn. 2-0 win.

Round 3 vs Burn

I fall to 2 and make a token to win game 1. Game 2 I could've made a turn 3 token but he had Swiftspear and Guide in play with only 1 land, so I decide to try to slow him down and postpone the combo a turn by Crop Rotating into Tabernacle. Turns out I boarded it out so I grabbed a Maze instead. I ended up being a turn too slow. Game 3 I have the combo but double Mana Confluence made the Stage activation lethal. :/ Definitely could've won that match but it was without a doubt tough.

Round 4 vs Landstill

Easy 2-0 after Needle on Wasteland and discard effects.

Deck performed well and I easily beat myself in the third round.

hovercraft
11-21-2014, 12:13 PM
Finished 3-1 tonight. Misplayed badly in round 3.

Round 1 vs Junk home brew

Nothing much of note here. He was on a budget deck without Wasteland. Easy 2-0.

Round 2 vs Elves

Discard effects bought me enough turns to make a token in game 1. Game 2 he mulls and keeps a 1-lander with Deathrite. I Needle Deathrite and he drops an Arbor and another elf. My turn 2 I cast Pyroclasm to clear his board of all but a land. He drops a few elves over the next few turns as I try to cobble up my combo pieces. He finds Needle for Stage the turn before I can go off, but Sylvan Library finds me a Ratchet Bomb and a turn later I blow up the Needles and all his elves and make my token the following turn. 2-0 win.

Round 3 vs Burn

I fall to 2 and make a token to win game 1. Game 2 I could've made a turn 3 token but he had Swiftspear and Guide in play with only 1 land, so I decide to try to slow him down and postpone the combo a turn by Crop Rotating into Tabernacle. Turns out I boarded it out so I grabbed a Maze instead. I ended up being a turn too slow. Game 3 I have the combo but double Mana Confluence made the Stage activation lethal. :/ Definitely could've won that match but it was without a doubt tough.

Round 4 vs Landstill

Easy 2-0 after Needle on Wasteland and discard effects.

Deck performed well and I easily beat myself in the third round.



What does your most recent list look like?

TLK
11-21-2014, 12:33 PM
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress

4 Sylvan Library

4 Copperline Gorge
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Sejiri Steppe

Board is:

3 Pyroclasm
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Thoughtseize
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge

I've considered cutting the Karakas because it hasn't really been useful in my meta. Not sure what to replace it with, though. There hasn't really been a deck I've been overly worried about so far, though Burn gave me the most trouble despite my play mistakes.

hovercraft
11-21-2014, 12:38 PM
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress

4 Sylvan Library

4 Copperline Gorge
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Sejiri Steppe

Board is:

3 Pyroclasm
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Thoughtseize
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge

I've considered cutting the Karakas because it hasn't really been useful in my meta. Not sure what to replace it with, though. There hasn't really been a deck I've been overly worried about so far, though Burn gave me the most trouble despite my play mistakes.

Thanks! I haven't put this together yet but I plan to do so soon. With respect to burn, since you have access to white mana maybe CoP:Red?
or aegis of honor. I dont usually play white so im not sure what the best SB options are but there are definitely better choice in W than in G/B/R

TLK
11-21-2014, 12:47 PM
Thanks! I haven't put this together yet but I plan to do so soon. With respect to burn, since you have access to white mana maybe CoP:Red?

I think I would've been OK game 2 had I either a) went for the combo a turn sooner, or b) hadn't sided out Tabernacle. That said, I'm not sure how good Tabernacle is in other circumstances. I like that it ties up their mana, but a Pyroclasm would've been just as good in that scenario had I drawn one. CoP: Red is interesting, but with Mana Confluence we're still pinging ourselves for 1 to prevent damage unless we use Gemstone, from which we'll only get a few activations. Could be worth trying, though.

I was blowing out all the other decks. Like I said, I should have beat Burn, but those three games were definitely the closest I've had (and my only loss) in the two tournaments I've player in with this deck. I firmly believe it's very well positioned. Pissed at myself for blowing the match against Burn, but what can you do?

hovercraft
11-21-2014, 12:49 PM
I think I would've been OK game 2 had I either a) went for the combo a turn sooner, or b) hadn't sided out Tabernacle. That said, I'm not sure how good Tabernacle is in other circumstances. I like that it ties up their mana, but a Pyroclasm would've been just as good in that scenario had I drawn one. CoP: Red is interesting, but with Mana Confluence we're still pinging ourselves for 1 to prevent damage unless we use Gemstone, from which we'll only get a few activations. Could be worth trying, though.

I was blowing out all the other decks. Like I said, I should have beat Burn, but those three games were definitely the closest I've had (and my only loss) in the two tournaments I've player in with this deck. I firmly believe it's very well positioned. Pissed at myself for blowing the match against Burn, but what can you do?

well COP only takes colourless to activate once it's out not W, so you only need gemstone/mana confluence once.

How does the deck fair against other fast combo decks?

TLK
11-21-2014, 12:54 PM
well COP only takes colourless to activate once it's out not W, so you only need gemstone/mana confluence once.

How does the deck fair against other fast combo decks?

Oh, you're absolutely correct. Good call. For some reason I thought it was W to activate. Haven't played they card in about 15 years haha. Definitely worth trying, then.

Against fair decks not running Wasteland I find it to be pretty lopsided in our favor. They simply can't interact, since we can just naturally draw our combo pieces. If they are running Wasteland, the 4 maindeck Needles are huge, and they typically can't destroy artifacts game 1.

Edit misread your post. I have only played against Elves as far as fast combo decks are concerned, and it's heavily in our favor, especially post board with all our sweepers.

hovercraft
11-21-2014, 01:07 PM
Oh, you're absolutely correct. Good call. For some reason I thought it was W to activate. Haven't played they card in about 15 years haha. Definitely worth trying, then.

Against fair decks not running Wasteland I find it to be pretty lopsided in our favor. They simply can't interact, since we can just naturally draw our combo pieces. If they are running Wasteland, the 4 maindeck Needles are huge, and they typically can't destroy artifacts game 1.

Edit misread your post. I have only played against Elves as far as fast combo decks are concerned, and it's heavily in our favor, especially post board with all our sweepers.

Thanks! I'd say the weakness of the deck will be decks that can go off T1-T2 as they'll be slightly faster. Have you played against Sneak and Show at all?

TLK
11-21-2014, 01:10 PM
Thanks! I'd say the weakness of the deck will be decks that can go off T1-T2 as they'll be slightly faster. Have you played against Sneak and Show at all?

I have not, and I'm assuming it would be a tough match. There was a Belcher player there last night, but I avoided him. In those matchups, our discard effects are huge, and obviously mainboard REB helps against blue combo decks.

adrieng
11-22-2014, 02:48 PM
When I look at TC decks it seems that goyf has disappeared as a consequence submerge doesn't see so much play in side right now.
The question is can we play a "normal" manabase with taiga/bayou and fetch ?
It is a question of meta I think but might be a good one is some life point from mana confluence still worth being submerge proof ?

Also the weakness of the deck are ANT and miracle ; the miralce matchup is not so easy I often loose when I play against competent pilot.

Library is the key card but they play wear/tear council's judgement and ee after side ; also counterlock is hard.

I have been considering Erebos, God of the Dead or skeletal scring maybe ? has a 5-6 library undestructible in side though don't know if the casting cost is too excessive. Long time ago I played a couple

of slaughter games but I don't think they are good enough. What's the people experience with miracle ?

I don't think we can make the ANT matchup much better (it is someting like 40-60), without changing others matchups.

I don't think the tabernacle belongs in the maindeck (meta concern)

PhyrexianPossum
11-23-2014, 12:45 AM
TLK, that's an awesome list. Any suggestions for Tabernacle replacements?

Also, I've been running 1 Loam in the SB for Wasteland decks, especially because Lands is gaining traction. Thoughts?

adrieng, I like Abrupt decay as a 3-of in the side vs Counter-top. Vs ANT, just rely on your blast, maybe a swan song in the board. :/

Why would you put in Erebos? How does that help against ANT or Miracles?

apple713
11-23-2014, 01:33 AM
TLK, that's an awesome list. Any suggestions for Tabernacle replacements?

Also, I've been running 1 Loam in the SB for Wasteland decks, especially because Lands is gaining traction. Thoughts?

adrieng, I like Abrupt decay as a 3-of in the side vs Counter-top. Vs ANT, just rely on your blast, maybe a swan song in the board. :/

Why would you put in Erebos? How does that help against ANT or Miracles?

take away miracles SDT and they are pretty worthless. Pithing needle obviously hits it but so does a card like damping matrix. matrix des turn off our maps and hexmage but does hit a lot of the meta too. null rod is option #2.

adrieng
11-23-2014, 03:09 AM
take away miracles SDT and they are pretty worthless. Pithing needle obviously hits it but so does a card like damping matrix. matrix des turn off our maps and hexmage but does hit a lot of the meta too. null rod is option #2.
Yeah I know how it works in theory, but in practice they have a lot of answer. They can have jace+CB if you named top and just lock you.
They still have acces to card to destroy artifact/echantment and can kill your library/needle after side. Drawing is the key in this matchup,
I have considered maybe deep analysis as a draw four where they need to counter two time.
Dark confidant might be an other alternative but not sure he is very good with all these red decks right now or choke ?.

I have reclamation sage after side to blow the CB. I don't have the space for decay and it doesn't answer blood moon against others deck unlike ratchet bomb

apple713
11-23-2014, 05:07 AM
Yeah I know how it works in theory, but in practice they have a lot of answer. They can have jace+CB if you named top and just lock you.
They still have acces to card to destroy artifact/echantment and can kill your library/needle after side. Drawing is the key in this matchup,
I have considered maybe deep analysis as a draw four where they need to counter two time.
Dark confidant might be an other alternative but not sure he is very good with all these red decks right now or choke ?.

I have reclamation sage after side to blow the CB. I don't have the space for decay and it doesn't answer blood moon against others deck unlike ratchet bomb

i don't think damping matrix or null rod is correct for the deck. ethersworn canonist should really be considered against Storm, Omni, and even elves. When combined with the main deck discard not only does it slow them down but also acts as a win con. If colored mana is an issue Consider tranisphere. Although transferee costs 3, discard spells can often get you to turn three. Once you run out of discard they are able to build their hand back fairly quickly. trinisphere not only slows down the rebuild of their hand but also how they win. It servers similar purposes in omni and elves as well.

Take note that canonist is unlikely to affect us in anyway but trinisphere typically does because we have lots of 1 CMC spells.

hovercraft
11-23-2014, 08:07 AM
When I look at TC decks it seems that goyf has disappeared as a consequence submerge doesn't see so much play in side right now.
The question is can we play a "normal" manabase with taiga/bayou and fetch ?
It is a question of meta I think but might be a good one is some life point from mana confluence still worth being submerge proof ?

Also the weakness of the deck are ANT and miracle ; the miralce matchup is not so easy I often loose when I play against competent pilot.

Library is the key card but they play wear/tear council's judgement and ee after side ; also counterlock is hard.

I have been considering Erebos, God of the Dead or skeletal scring maybe ? has a 5-6 library undestructible in side though don't know if the casting cost is too excessive. Long time ago I played a couple

of slaughter games but I don't think they are good enough. What's the people experience with miracle ?

I don't think we can make the ANT matchup much better (it is someting like 40-60), without changing others matchups.

I don't think the tabernacle belongs in the maindeck (meta concern)

I am thinking about playing this deck tomorrow for the first time, and I may just run a more normal Jund manabase. I agree that submerges aren't that common right now. Fetchland thinning will slightly increase chance of drawing combo pieces too I guess

apple713
11-23-2014, 08:28 AM
I am thinking about playing this deck tomorrow for the first time, and I may just run a more normal Jund manabase. I agree that submerges aren't that common right now. Fetchland thinning will slightly increase chance of drawing combo pieces too I guess

i've never really found that the damage mana confluence deals is a hinderance. compared to how much life you would lose on average to multiple fetchlands its probably about even. Especially when you have urborg out its fine. In rare situations you'll draw 3 mana confluences and need the mana and bolting yourself sucks but such is life... you could just as likely be screwed on the colored mana you need and instead of having the option to bolt yourself you just can't cast anything...

TLK
11-23-2014, 12:53 PM
TLK, that's an awesome list. Any suggestions for Tabernacle replacements?

Also, I've been running 1 Loam in the SB for Wasteland decks, especially because Lands is gaining traction. Thoughts?

adrieng, I like Abrupt decay as a 3-of in the side vs Counter-top. Vs ANT, just rely on your blast, maybe a swan song in the board. :/

Why would you put in Erebos? How does that help against ANT or Miracles?

Thanks. I don't really think there's a replacement for Tabernacle, as it's a land you can tutor for using Map/Scrying/Rotation and can offer up big blowouts. I wouldn't try to replace it, but rather run another Duress or something useful against poor matchups (fast combo).

Loam as a 1-of in the board is probably fine, as most decks won't be bringing in graveyard hate against us after game 1.

hovercraft
11-23-2014, 02:27 PM
i've never really found that the damage mana confluence deals is a hinderance. compared to how much life you would lose on average to multiple fetchlands its probably about even. Especially when you have urborg out its fine. In rare situations you'll draw 3 mana confluences and need the mana and bolting yourself sucks but such is life... you could just as likely be screwed on the colored mana you need and instead of having the option to bolt yourself you just can't cast anything...

I'll probably keep a couple of confluences or gemstone mines, just not as many.

TLK
11-24-2014, 12:06 PM
Anyone build this on MTGO? Wondering how expensive it is. Guessing Depths would be the biggest investment

supremePINEAPPLE
11-24-2014, 01:18 PM
Anyone build this on MTGO? Wondering how expensive it is. Guessing Depths would be the biggest investmentThe first list in the original post wouldn't be too bad to build, the most expensive pieces are the following cards assuming city of brass over mana confluence;

dark depths ~30
exploration ~20
maze of ith ~15

The second list will be significantly more expensive due to the cost of rishadan port ($140 on mtgotraders! So glad I have my playset for lands/d&t from way back). I really need to put these together since I just need silly stuff like extra sylvan libraries to finish both of the sample decklists.

TLK
11-24-2014, 01:53 PM
I'd be building the list that's quoted at the top of this page, so I wouldn't even need Exploration. Great, doesn't seen too bad. I'll probably build it.

apple713
11-24-2014, 02:25 PM
Anyone build this on MTGO? Wondering how expensive it is. Guessing Depths would be the biggest investment

total cost of adring's list is ~165. i've been wanting to buy it but can't really justify the cost right now. I'm in a very strange situation... i have a ton... of cards in paper, but can't ever find time to get to a store to play now that I'm in law school. Because I'm now a student i have $0 to spend on mtgo cards even though i would probably play more of it.

TLK
11-24-2014, 03:17 PM
Oh wow, even less than I expected. Depths is like $30, so that's $120 right there. I'm guessing everything else is incredibly cheap.

supremePINEAPPLE
11-24-2014, 03:36 PM
Oh wow, even less than I expected. Depths is like $30, so that's $120 right there. I'm guessing everything else is incredibly cheap.The only other expensive card I missed was toxic deluge. It's sitting at 34 so you could also save a significant amount by trying something else like e-plague or golgari charm that isn't quite as nice as deluge. I definitely recommend city of brass over mana confluence on MTGO right now given that it's a third of the price and if any of your games are being decided by city getting tapped down with port while playing this deck you probably should have already conceded by that point.

TLK
11-24-2014, 04:09 PM
Mana Confluence is also better with Urborg than City, but in the Legacy event I won a few weeks ago, I used CoB and it never negatively affected me. I'll definitely pass on Deluge for now.

apple713
11-24-2014, 04:28 PM
The only other expensive card I missed was toxic deluge. It's sitting at 34 so you could also save a significant amount by trying something else like e-plague or golgari charm that isn't quite as nice as deluge. I definitely recommend city of brass over mana confluence on MTGO right now given that it's a third of the price and if any of your games are being decided by city getting tapped down with port while playing this deck you probably should have already conceded by that point.

pyroclasm is a really amazing substitute. if deluge didn't kill griselbrands and emrakuls id prob just run 4 clasm.

ya COB can suck at times however, games usually don't last that long for it to matter.

TLK
11-24-2014, 05:04 PM
Yeah, Pyroclasm has been great. I didn't have Deluge in the tournament I won, either, and just added another Duress (since I only run 2 main) and a Grafdigger's Cage since my meta has a bit of Dredge and Elves.

kubalonek
11-25-2014, 01:37 PM
It is way more than 165$ at MODO. 4x DD = 100 Tix, 4x Mana Confluence = 60 Tix so it is almost the amount. But it is cheap anyway! :)

Edit:

In the horde of UR Delver deck I like mana confluence more but you are right. CoB is almost as good as MC but 1/3 of price. Then probably 160 is affordable! :)

TLK
11-25-2014, 02:05 PM
I built it online last night. Ended up costing about $250. Maybe I was just doing it wrong. I realize the promo versions of cards are much cheaper, but I couldn't find those for sale so ended up paying a bit more. Still, relatively cheap for a one-time investment.

Played against Miracles for the first time. Very annoying to play against online. I ran out of time after I was up 1-0 and ahead in game 2. He seemingly always had a Swords to Plowshares, so I was at like 80 life in game 2, beginning to draw 3 cards for 8 life off Sylvan to find my last Depths. Had a Needle on Top and another on Jace, and had already Ghost Quartered his Karakas. I'm not used to playing online so maybe I just need to be faster. Obviously I would've won the match in paper magic if time expires being up 1-0, but it's definitely something for which I'll have to make adjustments.

apple713
11-25-2014, 03:06 PM
I built it online last night. Ended up costing about $250. Maybe I was just doing it wrong. I realize the promo versions of cards are much cheaper, but I couldn't find those for sale so ended up paying a bit more. Still, relatively cheap for a one-time investment.

Played against Miracles for the first time. Very annoying to play against online. I ran out of time after I was up 1-0 and ahead in game 2. He seemingly always had a Swords to Plowshares, so I was at like 80 life in game 2, beginning to draw 3 cards for 8 life off Sylvan to find my last Depths. Had a Needle on Top and another on Jace, and had already Ghost Quartered his Karakas. I'm not used to playing online so maybe I just need to be faster. Obviously I would've won the match in paper magic if time expires being up 1-0, but it's definitely something for which I'll have to make adjustments.

do you like playing online? i've been reluctant to invest just because i don't know if i'll truly like it as much.

supremePINEAPPLE
11-25-2014, 03:10 PM
I built it online last night. Ended up costing about $250. Maybe I was just doing it wrong. I realize the promo versions of cards are much cheaper, but I couldn't find those for sale so ended up paying a bit more. Still, relatively cheap for a one-time investment.

Played against Miracles for the first time. Very annoying to play against online. I ran out of time after I was up 1-0 and ahead in game 2. He seemingly always had a Swords to Plowshares, so I was at like 80 life in game 2, beginning to draw 3 cards for 8 life off Sylvan to find my last Depths. Had a Needle on Top and another on Jace, and had already Ghost Quartered his Karakas. I'm not used to playing online so maybe I just need to be faster. Obviously I would've won the match in paper magic if time expires being up 1-0, but it's definitely something for which I'll have to make adjustments.There were lots of $4-6 cards in the list so I'm not too surprised it was a little more expensive than the $165 someone quoted.

Are you pretty new to MTGO? Getting your stops set up perfectly for your deck helps a ton when trying to cut down on unnecessary time. Auto-yielding to things like spinning top can also put more pressure on the miracles player to play quickly since top activations aren't draining your clock anymore. A lot of it just comes with practice though, I used to time out all the time but have gotten to the point where I can play quick enough that I almost always have more time than the opponent. F3, F6, and F7 are my best friends online.

TLK
11-25-2014, 04:11 PM
do you like playing online? i've been reluctant to invest just because i don't know if i'll truly like it as much.

I do and I don't. I definitely prefer paper Magic, but it's an acceptable alternative.

Pros:

1. Convenient - I can play within comforts of my own home
2. Less human error - It remembers triggers for you
3. More Magic - I don't have to wait for my weekly Legacy event, or for my buddies to be available if I want to get some games/practice in. That's a big plus.

Cons:

1. I prefer human contact - I like being able to see the board state in person and oppenent's mannerisms help me get a read of their hand/situation
2. Cost - It's hard for me to justify paying for "non-real" cards that I already own in paper
3. Prizes - Tickets/packs of fake cards to help you buy more fake cards :/
4. Bugs - it's definitely not a flawless experience
5. Learning curve - I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to gameplay, so until I play online more frequently this poses an issue (as is the case with most computer/video games)

That's the jist of it, in my opinion. I think the tipping point was pro #3. Made it worth it to me.


There were lots of $4-6 cards in the list so I'm not too surprised it was a little more expensive than the $165 someone quoted.

Are you pretty new to MTGO? Getting your stops set up perfectly for your deck helps a ton when trying to cut down on unnecessary time. Auto-yielding to things like spinning top can also put more pressure on the miracles player to play quickly since top activations aren't draining your clock anymore. A lot of it just comes with practice though, I used to time out all the time but have gotten to the point where I can play quick enough that I almost always have more time than the opponent. F3, F6, and F7 are my best friends online.

Yes, I'm fairly new to it. I've had MTGO for a while, but have only used it sporadically, as I prefer paper Magic. I just downloaded the newest client, so I haven't had a chance (nor do I know how) to set anything up as far as yields are concerned. That definitely would've helped against Miracles. I felt like I was pushing OK every few seconds, which ate my time.

supremePINEAPPLE
11-25-2014, 04:58 PM
Yes, I'm fairly new to it. I've had MTGO for a while, but have only used it sporadically, as I prefer paper Magic. I just downloaded the newest client, so I haven't had a chance (nor do I know how) to set anything up as far as yields are concerned. That definitely would've helped against Miracles. I felt like I was pushing OK every few seconds, which ate my time.If there is a repeating trigger (like SDT activations) you can right-click on the trigger while it's on the stack and set it to automatically yield. It will then automatically ok that trigger every time that permanent triggers it again. You can push F3 at any time to remove the yields and give yourself full control over any triggers you yielded previously.

You can set your stops with the little bar that keeps track of the turn phases, you just right click the phase you want to set stops on and select whether or not you want a stop to occur on your turn or your opponent's. With Lands for example I always have a stop set on my opponents upkeep for rishadan port yet rarely have that set when playing other decks since I don't often have anything I want to do there and I'll set it manually if I do.

Figuring those out helped me a ton with avoiding unnecessary clicks that chip away at your time.

TLK
11-25-2014, 05:21 PM
That's awesome advice. I really appreciate it. I'll have to play around with that when I get home. I have a feeling it'll take some getting used to, but as you previously stated, practice will help immensely.

TLK
11-27-2014, 03:27 PM
So I've been pretty much cruising to victory online against a majority of my opponents. Just doing Tournament Practice as of now to get used to gameplay and the new client. I'll probably try to jam some tournaments today/this weekend and report back with my findings.

apple713
11-27-2014, 04:29 PM
So I've been pretty much cruising to victory online against a majority of my opponents. Just doing Tournament Practice as of now to get used to gameplay and the new client. I'll probably try to jam some tournaments today/this weekend and report back with my findings.

ha, i better buy my copies before you make the price jump

TLK
11-27-2014, 05:08 PM
Haha :)

Played against Sneak and Show. Went how I expected - a race to the combo. Red blasts and discard were good here, but it was about 50/50 in testing. Burn was also as big an issue as it was in the last paper tournament I played in. Hard to race them, and Price of Progress of course hurts.

apple713
11-27-2014, 05:30 PM
Haha :)

Played against Sneak and Show. Went how I expected - a race to the combo. Red blasts and discard were good here, but it was about 50/50 in testing. Burn was also as big an issue as it was in the last paper tournament I played in. Hard to race them, and Price of Progress of course hurts.

idk if you've checked out the other list I drafted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28838-Deck-Chalice-of-the-Dark-Order&p=849527&viewfull=1#post849527), but it has some advantages that this traditional list doesn't. the list in the op is what I'm playing currently but still could use some optimization I'm sure. It eliminates some of the problems the dark depths deck experiences. The use of chalice helps significantly against combo / burn. The combo matchups are better because it can use NO or GSZ to tutor into a defense like teeg or ruric, and it runs trinisphere in the sideboard. These additions also help against high tide and omni which have been bad for dark depths in general.

look it over lmk what you think. Ive found that although it runs fewer tutors than turbo depths, it doesn't really sacrifice consistency because it has access to KOTR as early as T2. In the past I have not liked KOTR because it typically gets stp'd. with the inclusion of Chalice main, STP becomes less of a problem for both kotr and Marit lage. Additionally, because KOTR costs 0 mana to use, it's nice to be able to protect the token on turn 4 without having to play additional lands. Example. t4 you have 4 lands and to protect your combo with a crop rotation into sejiri steppe you have to have a 5th land to tap for mana. With KOTR you can make your token on t4 and still use KOTR to search up sejiri steppe.

the only reason I'm even considering this list is because it still has the same feel of an all in dark depths list, cheat a huge fatty into play and smash face. for the last 5 years thats been my motive originating from sneak attack.

TLK
11-28-2014, 12:53 AM
I took a glance when you first posted it. Looked good. Let me take another look and comment. You only had a few ways for turn 1 Chalice, right? No Sol Lands?

Also, just got 2-0'd by 12-Post. Seems rough. 4 maindeck Repeal? Ugh. Good thing it isn't played much!

apple713
11-28-2014, 12:59 AM
I took a glance when you first posted it. Looked good. Let me take another look and comment. You only had a few ways for turn 1 Chalice, right? No Sol Lands?

Also, just got 2-0'd by 12-Post. Seems rough. 4 maindeck Repeal? Ugh. Good thing it isn't played much!

it does have 4x sol lands, which it can crop rotate into if need be. also can go the natural order route against something like 12post and stick a progenitus, improving that matchup as well.

Lio
11-28-2014, 12:59 AM
Tested our beloved deck yesterday a bit against my Junk Blade deck (Japanese version) with Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2x Karakas MD + classic Junk Shell + Needles and Extractions SB, etc etc. Tough to beat. Really. Also with all these white decks on the rise I moved Not of this World back to the SB in one or two copies. Not sure what to cut yet. Maybe Thoughtseize? It performed very well yesterday.

TLK
11-28-2014, 01:34 AM
it does have 4x sol lands, which it can crop rotate into if need be. also can go the natural order route against something like 12post and stick a progenitus, improving that matchup as well.

Oh, I see that now. Must've looked past them. I might sleeve up your deck in paper and try it out, if only because Knight is one of my favorite creatures ever. Online, I'm winning about 80-90% of my matchups. I've been playing against top tier decks for the most part. Biggest hurdles have been Burn (about 50%) and 12-Post. Sneak & Show was about 50/50 as well.


Tested our beloved deck yesterday a bit against my Junk Blade deck (Japanese version) with Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2x Karakas MD + classic Junk Shell + Needles and Extractions SB, etc etc. Tough to beat. Really. Also with all these white decks on the rise I moved Not of this World back to the SB in one or two copies. Not sure what to cut yet. Maybe Thoughtseize? It performed very well yesterday.

I've also thought about adding Not of This World to my board in place of the discard.

apple713
11-28-2014, 01:45 AM
Oh, I see that now. Must've looked past them. I might sleeve up your deck in paper and try it out, if only because Knight is one of my favorite creatures ever. Online, I'm winning about 80-90% of my matchups. I've been playing against top tier decks for the most part. Biggest hurdles have been Burn (about 50%) and 12-Post. Sneak & Show was about 50/50 as well.



I've also thought about adding Not of This World to my board in place of the discard.

not sure if i made it clear in the OP but Not of this world is amazing in the matchups that it actually matters. adrien found that it was not versatile enough to justify a main board slot or even a SB slot. I feel like it could in SB just because it helps fight things like karakas AND STP. although with something limited in application you could just run steely resolve... it looks so stupid but its practically the same thing

Lio
11-28-2014, 01:58 AM
There is significant difference between Steely Resolve and Not of this World. Steely resolves forces you to spend 2nd turn playing your protection instead of searching for your combo pieces. On the contrary Not of this World is nice surprising trick to punish the opponent who kept just Karakas or single removal without FoW. It is also better topdeck in the turn when you need to go off. Yes, the card is not MB material. Not at all. But definitely deserves the SB slot as it does exactly what we need exactly when we need it. In my opinion this card is better than discard spell in the matchups where Not of this World actually matters,

apple713
11-28-2014, 02:21 AM
There is significant difference between Steely Resolve and Not of this World. Steely resolves forces you to spend 2nd turn playing your protection instead of searching for your combo pieces. On the contrary Not of this World is nice surprising trick to punish the opponent who kept just Karakas or single removal without FoW. It is also better topdeck in the turn when you need to go off. Yes, the card is not MB material. Not at all. But definitely deserves the SB slot as it does exactly what we need exactly when we need it. In my opinion this card is better than discard spell in the matchups where Not of this World actually matters,

not of this world is clearly better for the reasons you pointed out, but i was just pointing out another option. I would agree that its better in SB than the discard but i believe adrien was more concerned with losing to combo. and since NOTW doesn't help against combo it's lack of diversity didn't make the cut.

Prätor
11-28-2014, 08:49 AM
Hello!
I am an austrian player and enjoying to read your discussion. I am playing dark depths combo for a year and actually love it. In my opinion Not of this World is also relevant for main because it depends on meta. If it's full of Miracles, DnT, Maverick, Stoneblade, Lands, Uwr Delver... I am glad to have it, maybe 2 MB and 2 SB. Clearly it's badly against combo, but therfore I want to bring another card.
I don't want to miss Swan Song in this Deck, it's good against combo and counters almost every card that stops Marit Lage.. The most important StP, Terminus, Bloodmoon, Echoing Truth,... First it looks some kind of weird because of the 2/2 flying blocker but with Seijiri Steppe and Shizo, Death's Storehouse you can ignore that. :-)

Lio
11-28-2014, 01:34 PM
Why don't we want Not of this World against combo decks like ANT? After the sideboard they will bring in bounce spells as Chain of Vapor or even Karakas. Sure, we can use our discard, but primarily the discard plays the role of disruption of their combo pieces to slow them down. We can protect our wincon by free spell and focus the mana somewhere else.

TLK
11-28-2014, 01:35 PM
I'm always wary about my opponent having a flying blocker. It means they have one more turn to find an answer/combo off (if they're a combo deck). I realize Steppe gets around this, but it requires you to have another search piece in your hand. I'm not against testing Swan Song by any means, though I have few ways to cast it given the list I'm playing.

apple713
11-28-2014, 04:20 PM
Hello!
I am an austrian player and enjoying to read your discussion. I am playing dark depths combo for a year and actually love it. In my opinion Not of this World is also relevant for main because it depends on meta. If it's full of Miracles, DnT, Maverick, Stoneblade, Lands, Uwr Delver... I am glad to have it, maybe 2 MB and 2 SB. Clearly it's badly against combo, but therfore I want to bring another card.
I don't want to miss Swan Song in this Deck, it's good against combo and counters almost every card that stops Marit Lage.. The most important StP, Terminus, Bloodmoon, Echoing Truth,... First it looks some kind of weird because of the 2/2 flying blocker but with Seijiri Steppe and Shizo, Death's Storehouse you can ignore that. :-)

id be interested to see your list if you have time. Shizo is a card i've known about but haven't bothered incorporating into the list because of the tight room constraints. its possible our metagames are significantly different. You are right NOTW could be a meta call if your meta was flooded with those decks but i guess here its not so much. Obviously in smaller local tournaments


Why don't we want Not of this World against combo decks like ANT? After the sideboard they will bring in bounce spells as Chain of Vapor or even Karakas. Sure, we can use our discard, but primarily the discard plays the role of disruption of their combo pieces to slow them down. We can protect our wincon by free spell and focus the mana somewhere else.

im not sure how you are side boarding but pyroclast hits ALL bounce spells. it also hits ponder, brainstorm and other digging cards.

TLK
11-28-2014, 04:43 PM
Right, I'd rather have Blasts than grant my opponent a flying blocker. Against non-blue combo decks, obviously Swan Song > REB. It just depends on the meta. I think discard/NOTW/Swan Song are flex slots in the board.

Prätor
11-29-2014, 05:48 PM
I played a lot of Dark Depths Combo versions like lands, pox depths and junk depths but now I prefer the Turbo Depths Deck because it's the solidest. I am playing just local legacy tournaments with 10-30 players. This is my meta adjusted list.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
3 Into the North
4 Sylvan Library
4 Pithing Needle
2 Not of this World
3 Swan Song
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Mana Confluence
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth
1 Snow-covered Forest
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter


1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Not of this World
2 Slaughtergames
2 Pyroblast
3 Thorn of Amethyst

I had some discard main but the most combo Decks are Reanimate and Dredge and so the main bojuka is good enough.
The meta is full of control and Delver Decks and most of the time my only problem was miracles. My list is very fast with the Petals, Spirits and Into the North. It's my strategy against treasure cruise to kill them before they cast it. T1 Library is also great. A big point for Swan Song is miracles because I often lose against terminus. Also the Slaughtergames in SB are not so bad. I tried first to take away their win con like Entreat and Jace, but it doesn't work. Another time I took all their removal like StP and Terminus but it also was not so good. I think the perfect plan is to take Terminus and Entreat because you have post board 10 answers for Jace and with NotW and Crop Rotation enough answers for StP. A Needle on Sensei's Divining Top is also very important. Maybe you got some more tips against miracles for me.

apple713
12-01-2014, 12:22 PM
Martin Pelikan, you have put the deck on the map here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29833_Innovation-Spotlight-III-Amazing-Legacy-Decks.html). congrats!

Quoting CARSTEN KOTTER

"It should be reasonably obvious what this deck is trying to accomplish: thaw out Marit Lage as soon as possible and attack for the full twenty in a single swing. There are two things that are really interesting to observe. The first is Martin's manabase, which I can only explain as a budget choice - I can't imagine how the five color land base plus Copperline Gorges is actually better than a couple of fetches with Bayous, a Badlands, and a couple of Taigas (let me know if I'm missing something here).

However, performing this well means there might not be an easy way to ameliorate a deck, and given we're talking about taking second place in a 144-player event here, and a rather competitive one from my experience playing in the event myself, this is actually quite the good sign.

To finally get to the thing - other than a rare archetype doing really well - that brought me to feature it today, take a look at that number in front of Sylvan Library. A full four copies of Green's - slightly weaker - version of Necropotence is something I've been waiting to see non-blue players do for a long time now. The card is already pretty insane just for what it does - often playing out like a green Ancestral Recall that leaves a Mirri's Guile behind.

In this deck, the card is pure genius though. With a clock this fast, you can afford to pay the life in almost any matchup. The most beautiful thing though, is that most of the format has exactly two efficient answers to the Dark Depths combo: Wasteland - which the four maindeck copies of Pithing Needle are clearly meant for - and Swords to Plowshares. If there's a Sylvan Library in play when the latter happens, I'm not even sure I could actually be sad about losing my 20/20. I guess I like drawing cards a little too much for my own good, don't I?"

adrieng
12-02-2014, 05:47 AM
Here is the link of the video of me playing against painter and losing game two on an obviosu missplay and my opponent being lucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YJo6zyWCGg&list=UUUqL06WZXa2EvKHcS8sg0oQ

apple713
12-02-2014, 06:06 AM
Here is the link of the video of me playing against painter and losing game two on an obviosu missplay and my opponent being lucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YJo6zyWCGg&list=UUUqL06WZXa2EvKHcS8sg0oQ

was the misplay because you used grudge when you should have used expedition map? that way you would have had the mana free to use grudge in the event he does get his combo and still make the token eot.

adrieng
12-02-2014, 06:26 AM
I had a second grudge in graveyard in case off (two grudge in graveyard) and yeah I should have crack the map EOT to have that double grudge backup.
Didn't thought that he could win with only top in play, though that was quite unlikely he found the third painter + the second grindstone.

wortwelt
12-05-2014, 12:31 PM
Maybe this doesn't belong in here, yet I think despite coming from a different approach, this may be useful.

I'm testing this approach for over two months now and I became fairly confident in it:

BG Depths 1.0
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite SHaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Living Wish
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland

SB
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Not From This World
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm

With this list, I went to GP Strasbourg to play in Sideevents. I went 3-1-2, losing only to Reanimator (which won the die roll and Griselbranded me T2 both games) And one draw was practically a win, since I would've killed him in the sixth extra turn. On the second day, I went 4-2, losing only to Death and Taxes and UW Control. My Approach obviously isn't full-on combo but plays much more like Tarmo-Twin in Modern. Due to the Hymns and Thoughtseizes, I have a little more time and can generally be slower, hence I'm running Living Wish and feel that for this deck, it might actually add a lot of consistency. I found that this version of Dark Depths is pretty good at killing all sorts of Delver variants.
The deck does not care much about the first Marit Lage being handled, it can easily produce a second or a third one (I beat Miracles in the first event by eventually producing Marit Lage 3 times - if they Sword it, I have a lot of time to set up again). There's also the alternative route to victory in simply chipping away their life total with Deathrite and attacks. Since they need to be afraid of a fast 20/20 all the time, this puts them in an awkward position.
I think one of the deck's strenghts is the fact that it acts like a more traditional Rock deck, giving it more game against midrange and aggro. Deathrite was almost always amazing, as was Bob (crazy, I know!) Also, the manabase allows you to play Choke. The wastelands plus Life from the Loam sometimes give you easy wins, as does Thoughtseize into Hymn into Liliana.

Death and Taxes obviously puts a lot of pressure on the deck, and this matchup may well be better for the full-on combo deck. This is a matchup I'm trying to improve. Since Strasbourg, I've been experimenting with the following changes:
-1 Liliana
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
-4 Not From This World
+4 Rite of Consumption
-1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Extirpate

I've been very satisfied with the Rites in every non-blue matchup. I may need more against small white creatures, though. I'm considering Massacre and Dread of Night. I'm also considering an alternative beater for Living Wish out of the board, but haven't found anything satisfying yet (Thrun?).
However, I'm still wondering if this is the right thread for me, since the stock list in the primer is very different from what this deck is trying to do.

apple713
12-05-2014, 01:44 PM
I added a matchup analysis but it's pretty brief. If y'all have suggestions let me know.

adrieng
12-06-2014, 03:08 AM
Went 4-1 at last tornament I beat patriot delver 2-0, stoneblade DTT 2-0, lost to storm 1-2 then omni show 2-0 and storm 2-0.
It could have been way worse with all these combo decks I faced but I mulliganed properly was somehow lucky.
I tested with classic build and -1 reclamation sage +1 creeping tar pit in side for miracle mainly and extirpate.

On the matchup analysis Jund and shardless are favorable but certainly not a 90-10 something like 65-35.
Death and taxes is (50-50) and sneak show (55-45 slightly favorable) are not unfavorable matchups neither is painter but closer to 50-50.
Omni show is 50-50. Lands is 50-50 you can sometimes lose to wast.lock. Burn is not 70-30 you can sometimes lose to it something like 60-40.
The two worse matchups are miracle and storm and random things like Turbo reanimator BR.
Miracle is unfavorable something like 40-60 so is storm.

After testing I don't agree to play tabernacle maindeck I have 4th scrying in this place. Not even sure it belongs to side, YP.decks are good matchups.

apple713
12-06-2014, 01:58 PM
Went 4-1 at last tornament I beat patriot delver 2-0, stoneblade DTT 2-0, lost to storm 1-2 then omni show 2-0 and storm 2-0.
It could have been way worse with all these combo decks I faced but I mulliganed properly was somehow lucky.
I tested with classic build and -1 reclamation sage +1 creeping tar pit in side for miracle mainly and extirpate.

On the matchup analysis Jund and shardless are favorable but certainly not a 90-10 something like 65-35.
Death and taxes is (50-50) and sneak show (55-45 slightly favorable) are not unfavorable matchups neither is painter but closer to 50-50.
Omni show is 50-50. Lands is 50-50 you can sometimes lose to wast.lock. Burn is not 70-30 you can sometimes lose to it something like 60-40.
The two worse matchups are miracle and storm and random things like Turbo reanimator BR.
Miracle is unfavorable something like 40-60 so is storm.

After testing I don't agree to play tabernacle maindeck I have 4th scrying in this place. Not even sure it belongs to side, YP.decks are good matchups.

i made some changes to the matchup analysis. I accepted most of your suggested changes but something seems unbalanced. The only unfavorable matchups are miracles and storm? Also, I can't even remember a time when i lost to jund or shardless. 90:10 is maybe too much (losing 1 out of 10 games), however i couldn't possibly fathom that you lose almost 1 out of every 3 games. If you are losing that much you probably need more practice. They have almost no interaction with your deck. Even post board no sideboard.

Anyone else care to give feed back on the matchups?


I changed the tabernacle and added karakas

adrieng
12-06-2014, 02:23 PM
i made some changes to the matchup analysis. I accepted most of your suggested changes but something seems unbalanced. The only unfavorable matchups are miracles and storm? Also, I can't even remember a time when i lost to jund or shardless. 90:10 is maybe too much (losing 1 out of 10 games), however i couldn't possibly fathom that you lose almost 1 out of every 3 games. If you are losing that much you probably need more practice. They have almost no interaction with your deck. Even post board no sideboard.

They have 4 wasteland surgical/loam after side some discard liliana for your hexmage and decay for your needle.
An unanswered dark confidant is sometimes problematic as is library. Shardless has sometimes strix to block and fow.
That's not nothing. Averaged of the times you'll win but not always.

Manaless dredge is a bye but classic dredge is unfavorable even after side 40-60 ; they have sometimes nut draws and cabal for your crop rotation.

Also high tide is not a 65-35 matchup more likely 50-50 with DTT/snap (I am talking of the last version of the deck with reset) they have a lot of answers to your disruption and your marit lage. I don't have a lot of test against the new version but it's way harder than spiral-tide.

Yes from my testing the only bad matchups are Miracle/Storm/12Post/LEDDredge/MonoRedStompy/Poison(45-55)/DeathAndTaxes(Japanese version)/MonoRedSneakAttack.

That's not a lot but it is certainly not nothing.

Xanthos
12-07-2014, 11:11 PM
Any updates or changes to the decklists in the original guide? Also a sideboard guide for the turbo list would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

apple713
12-08-2014, 12:47 AM
Any updates or changes to the decklists in the original guide? Also a sideboard guide for the turbo list would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

there are not really any major changes and there probably won't be unless new cards come out. The deck has been tested significantly and there just isn't much else to tweak. It hasn't seen widespread recognition because there are only a handful of people playing this list. Most jam it into other shells.

I probably won't get around to that turbo list sideboard till after xmas. Adrien's list changes slightly, we just -1 tabernacle for sylvan scrying and added Karakas to board. I can start putting the most recent changes in bold.

Corto
12-08-2014, 11:21 AM
You mentioned apostle blessing, steely resolve and such.
Did you ever think about sylvan safekeeper ?
It's quite on the all-in side, with the potential blow out of losing one land, but isn't it quite good to protect Marit Lage ?

apple713
12-08-2014, 12:18 PM
You mentioned apostle blessing, steely resolve and such.
Did you ever think about sylvan safekeeper ?
It's quite on the all-in side, with the potential blow out of losing one land, but isn't it quite good to protect Marit Lage ?

I mentioned them but didn't mean suggest they were good options. They are too focused and have little application outside of the few matches they help. They are probably worse than not of this world

TLK
12-10-2014, 02:59 PM
Not sure I'm ready to cut Taberbacle just yet. In testing it has won me a few games against aggressive decks. It is great against UR Delver. Slows down Elves if they don't have a Cradle/Priest in play. It stole me a game against Burn, as they had to choose between paying the upkeep for Guides/Eidolons/Swifts or keeping their mana available for Bolts. Buys you a bit of time to assemble your combo in these instances.

PhyrexianPossum
12-10-2014, 03:55 PM
//Artifact (7)
3 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Enchantment (4)
4 Sylvan Library

//Instant (6)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Red Elemental Blast

//Sorcery (13)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Toxic Deluge

//Land (26)
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Karplusan Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 3 Not of This World
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Slaughter Games


1 Toxic Deluge in the maindeck has been really good. Slaughter Games is super good against Miracles and Storm, if you can get if off before they Tendrils you.

I think Tabernacle is defintely worth keeping, if not the main then the side. It's a huge blowout against Elves, and Young Pyromancer, and against Belcher/TES on the Empty the Warrens plan.

TLK
12-10-2014, 06:15 PM
I like the main deck. I've been thinking of 8 discard spells main as well, since I seem to side in additional discard frequently. I've been meaning to cut my second Maze of Ith, so that frees up a slot.

How have the Negate and Not Of This World been for you in the side?

PhyrexianPossum
12-10-2014, 08:03 PM
I agree that you don't need two Maze of Iths. The matchups where you want (primarily against Batterskull or Griselbrand don't have Wasteland often anyways.

8 discard spells in the main has been phenomenal. I actually find myself liking Duress the most, because we don't care about creatures so much.

Negate has been great- in won me a game against storm. I may want to fit in another in place of a Pyroclasm. I may replace them with
Spell Pierces, but I'm not sure yet.


Not of this World is crazy good against Karakas, Maze of Ith, Path to Exile... I don't really want Marit Lage to get Swords-ed, but it's not the worst thing in the world with a Sylvan Library out.

TLK
12-11-2014, 01:08 PM
I'm definitely going to up my maindeck discard suite to 8, and cut a Maze. What is the purpose of the maindeck Deluge? Are we really worried about creatures? I'm going to try 3 sideboard NotW. I'm definitely tired of grinding out games against Miracles/DnT with all the Karakas/Swords/Flickerwisp/etc. I like Slaughter Gamesad well, as long as we can live long enough against combo. Perhaps the stupid question, but what do you name in those matchups?

Against ANT, do you name Tendrils? That's their only win condition game 1, correct? We have Tabernsacle for the Warrens plan.

Against Miracles, I'm assuming Entreat? Terminus is annoying as well, but they typically only win with Entreat (we have Needle/REB for Jace).

Thoughts?

PhyrexianPossum
12-12-2014, 12:37 PM
What I like naming with Slaughter Games (In the matchups where I side it in:)
Miracles: Entreat/Jace
ANT: Tendrils
TES: Tendrils (EtW if you don't run Tabernacle)
Elves: Either NO or Behemoth
Sneak & Show: This is hard- it depends on how many lands they have. If they're tight on mana, I name Show and Tell. Otherwise, either Sneak Attack or Griselbrand (not Emrakul because we don't want them to go above 20 life.)
Reanimator: Griselbrand or Reanimate (Don't always bring it in here)
Dredge: Bridge from Below, maybe Ichorid
Painter: Painter
Cloudpost: Primeviel Titan

Toxic Deluge is just such a blowout against Pyromancer, D&T, Goblin, Merfolk, Maverick... idk, maybe it's cause there are a lot of creature decks in my meta, but it's won me G1s before.

TLK
12-12-2014, 01:50 PM
Thanks! That helps a lot. I played a few matches last night. I always seem to lose to Storm one turn before I can attack with my token. Like literally every time.

Also, that Ascendency deck is a beating. Lost 0-2 to it. Slaughter Games for Ascendency and Needle on Fatestitcher are obviously good here (never drew eithee against him).

apple713
12-12-2014, 05:21 PM
Thanks! That helps a lot. I played a few matches last night. I always seem to lose to Storm one turn before I can attack with my token. Like literally every time.

Also, that Ascendency deck is a beating. Lost 0-2 to it. Slaughter Games for Ascendency and Needle on Fatestitcher are obviously good here (never drew eithee against him).

you have pyroblast and bojuka so I'm finding it hard to believe its bad.

TLK
12-13-2014, 01:02 AM
That's what I thought too. I admit my sample size is small and I didn't seem to draw my hate cards.

apple713
12-17-2014, 07:20 AM
So i was brainstorming, when i was suppose to be studying, but I realized that possible incorporation of a counterbalance into he deck may solve some of the issues the deck faces. most of the spells that we would want to counter are 1-2 cmc such as most combo decks, and miscellaneous decks with STP. Has anyone tried this possibly in place of discard / pyroblasts. I guess you could replace someone thing else, but these are the variable slots. SDT also has other benefits outside of the counterbalance plan too.

Our mana base being rainbow should allow it.

TLK
12-17-2014, 11:03 AM
You know, that's crazy that you mentioned that, because I was thinking about that possibility yesterday, then kept my mouth shut because I figured I was just talking nonsense. Maybe I'm not...or maybe we both are haha.

TLK
12-17-2014, 12:47 PM
I'd probably replace Libraries if we ran SDT. That would be a straight swap. The 4 Counterbalance could replace Blasts and a discard spell or something.

apple713
12-17-2014, 01:22 PM
I'd probably replace Libraries if we ran SDT. That would be a straight swap. The 4 Counterbalance could replace Blasts and a discard spell or something.

i think ideally, you end up

-4 library
-3 blasts
-1 duress
-4 Copperline Gorge

+4 SDT
+4 counterbalance
+4 Yavimaya Coast/+2 Gemstone/2 City of brass?

TLK
12-17-2014, 01:34 PM
Yeah, that's probably about right. Without Libraries, we could run Chains in the board if wanted to further combat combo/Miracles/Cruise decks.

With Counterbalance/Top, we might want to run fetches to reset Top, allowing us to play duals instead of the rainbow lands. Just a thought.

apple713
12-17-2014, 01:59 PM
Yeah, that's probably about right. Without Libraries, we could run Chains in the board if wanted to further combat combo/Miracles/Cruise decks.

With Counterbalance/Top, we might want to run fetches to reset Top, allowing us to play duals instead of the rainbow lands. Just a thought.

then u open yourself up to submerge, and an easier match turns much harder.

TLK
12-17-2014, 02:02 PM
While this is true, I have yet to run into a single deck packing Submerge in all my testing. They very well could be running it, but I don't think it's as common at the moment.

apple713
12-17-2014, 02:17 PM
While this is true, I have yet to run into a single deck packing Submerge in all my testing. They very well could be running it, but I don't think it's as common at the moment.

its played quite a bit (http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=submerge&noside=&strict=on) <--- see there and note the dates and deck types. What you probably don't notice is when your opponent is holding 3x submerge in hand but you don't have a forest.

TLK
12-17-2014, 02:21 PM
Yeah, that was my point. I'm probably just unaware. I'll probably sleeve up the proposed list and run it tomorrow if I can find Counterbalances.

apple713
12-17-2014, 06:57 PM
Yeah, that was my point. I'm probably just unaware. I'll probably sleeve up the proposed list and run it tomorrow if I can find Counterbalances.

i just ran a few matches with it. Its really not what were looking for. The issue is that counterbalance by itself is almost worthless. Paired with SDT its good but we have no way of really searching for it. If we switch the focus to setting that up it will still be at best T3, which is not good enough against ant or most decks for that matter. any threats that that stick before its set up are still problems. It's clunky, and hard to cast, has little impact for its inclusion. I almost feel like we're better off running different 2 card combo because essentially thats what CB TOP is.

liliana is too slow. Hymn is good card advantage but sometimes too random. we can try something like canonist / meddling mage but not really that many slots

TLK
12-18-2014, 01:01 AM
i just ran a few matches with it. Its really not what were looking for. The issue is that counterbalance by itself is almost worthless. Paired with SDT its good but we have no way of really searching for it. If we switch the focus to setting that up it will still be at best T3, which is not good enough against ant or most decks for that matter. any threats that that stick before its set up are still problems. It's clunky, and hard to cast, has little impact for its inclusion. I almost feel like we're better off running different 2 card combo because essentially thats what CB TOP is.

liliana is too slow. Hymn is good card advantage but sometimes too random. we can try something like canonist / meddling mage but not really that many slots

I had a feeling it would be lackluster without a way to search for the pieces.

I've considered running Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre/Leyline of the Void/Relic of Progenitus to shore up fast combo (Storm, Reanimator). It also has the added benefit of making Cruise decks an even better matchup. I think I'll try some mixture of this graveyard hate.

apple713
12-18-2014, 02:31 AM
I had a feeling it would be lackluster without a way to search for the pieces.

I've considered running Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre/Leyline of the Void/Relic of Progenitus to shore up fast combo (Storm, Reanimator). It also has the added benefit of making Cruise decks an even better matchup. I think I'll try some mixture of this graveyard hate.

I actually mentioned relic of progenitus in another thread earlier tonight. Hits DRS, Treasure cruise, reanimator, snap caster, goyf, mongoose, punishing fire, life from the loam, some of ad nauseum, knight of the reliquary, goblin welder, AND in the event it doesn't hit anything it cantrips. Unfortunately, while it does have lots of interaction, it doesn't get us closer to our goal or protect token.

TLK
12-18-2014, 12:04 PM
Well my main focus as of late was not losing to Storm, a match in which protecting our token doesn't matter, but losing before we can create one/swing with it does. Idk, more graveyard hate than just Bog might be warranted. Going to try a few Relic and Not of This World for added protection in my board at our weekly tournament tonight. 8 discard effects main, as well.

apple713
12-18-2014, 02:31 PM
Well my main focus as of late was not losing to Storm, a match in which protecting our token doesn't matter, but losing before we can create one/swing with it does. Idk, more graveyard hate than just Bog might be warranted. Going to try a few Relic and Not of This World for added protection in my board at our weekly tournament tonight. 8 discard effects main, as well.

moving from 6-8 isn't likely to show a significant improvement. Also, NOTW doesn't help your combo matches at all. I feel like without changing the deck radically at this point it has pretty much reached its max potential. Unless a new card is printed that counters an instant, sorcery, or activated ability for 1 mana, it's unlikly this deck will see improvement. Really all this deck needs is mental misstep. maybe it'll be good in vintage?

TLK
12-18-2014, 03:51 PM
The deck is solid as it is, and has many favorable matchups. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my last post, but the NOTW wasn't for Storm. It is used as added protection for the token which you stated the deck was missing. I think the heavy discard and graveyard hate would definitely help without sacrificing slots for other matchups given that the cards are still relevant against other decks.

PhyrexianPossum
12-19-2014, 07:47 PM
Has anyone tested out any builds like these:
Tempo Depths

//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (12)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

//Land (20)
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Polluted Delta
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Underground Sea
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Not of This World
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library



Tempo Depths (without fetchlands)

//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (16)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Land (20)
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library



Cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain) smooth out our draws and make the combo much more consistent. We can play more of a tempo game with Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare. Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal can enable turn-one Marit Lages.

Personally, I believe the one with fetchlands is better because it enables Dazes and Brainstorms. However, it does enable Submerge, so it's an interesting trade-off. Also, the fetchland version can't use Pyroblast.

Thoughts? I've done some testing and it seems both faster and more consistent than our standard list with Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying.

apple713
12-20-2014, 12:58 AM
Has anyone tested out any builds like these:
Tempo Depths

//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (12)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

//Land (20)
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Polluted Delta
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Underground Sea
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Not of This World
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library



Tempo Depths (without fetchlands)

//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (16)
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Land (20)
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sylvan Library



Cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain) smooth out our draws and make the combo much more consistent. We can play more of a tempo game with Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare. Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal can enable turn-one Marit Lages.

Personally, I believe the one with fetchlands is better because it enables Dazes and Brainstorms. However, it does enable Submerge, so it's an interesting trade-off. Also, the fetchland version can't use Pyroblast.

Thoughts? I've done some testing and it seems both faster and more consistent than our standard list with Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying.

daze is a terrible idea because it slows you down and late game its not likely to do anything when the only spells you are worried about are swords, and they'll have enough mana to pay for it late game. also they can just play around it g2 and its not likely to be effective.

TLK
12-20-2014, 01:27 PM
Yeah I think I like the second list more for sure.

PhyrexianPossum
12-20-2014, 05:11 PM
daze is a terrible idea because it slows you down and late game its not likely to do anything when the only spells you are worried about are swords, and they'll have enough mana to pay for it late game. also they can just play around it g2 and its not likely to be effective.

What do you think about the second list? I've found that the Rituals, Petals, and cantrips have improved the deck a lot.

TLK
12-20-2014, 05:18 PM
Would it be viable to run 2 Force of Will over Spell Snare in the second list? Is there anything 2CMC we really care about?

apple713
12-20-2014, 05:18 PM
What do you think about the second list? I've found that the Rituals, Petals, and cantrips have improved the deck a lot.

how did they "improve" the deck? All they do is provide speed to the deck. While that can help against matches that require it like ant, you are still more or less halted against a well places STP. you do have several discard spells, but you have removed all of the land tutors and significantly decreased consistency.

Additionally there is no recursion. Spell snare hits nothing that we care about.

Things we care about

wasteland
swords to plowshares
karakas
maze of ith

there is a more comprehensive list on the primer


furthermore, I'm not convinced that either of yourr list are better than the Turbo list i posted in the primer, Apple713's list

Chatto
12-21-2014, 06:45 AM
There is no need in splashing blue when you don't play Brainstorm and Force of Will. Why soft-counters when you can hard-counter? Of course you will need a grand total of 16-18 Blue cards to support FoW, but between Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and Force of Will itself this would be easy. Then again, I will not splash blue, because this deck runs fine without that color.

If you want to 'speed things up' I would suggest to go with the Classic Builds, like in the old threat: Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal and perhaps Simian Spirit Guide. I haven't got the time to play-test OP's decks, but those seem more consistent as well.

Shakara
12-25-2014, 10:22 PM
I don't think blue is necessary either. Living Wish+Crop Rotation can tutor for the combo very well. Maybe a combo shell of:

4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation

3 Vampire Hexmage

3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage

This would leave a lot of room for any mix of aggressive,controlling and disruptive elements like discard and lilianas. Maindeck Pithing Needle is another thing I've seen before that seems very strong. There are relevant non wasteland targets in most match ups and lilianas can help pitch them too.

apple713
12-26-2014, 12:19 AM
the deck doesn't have issues with consistency. the problem is that it has little to interact with other decks that are faster, such as ant.

TLK
12-26-2014, 01:05 AM
Yeah, honestly I've been testing the 8 discard spell list from a page or so back and it has been performing really well against a variety of decks. The deck is super consistent and can easily make a token at worst on turn 4, and even quicker against decks that can't interact. I agree our main issue has been fast(er) combo decks (aside from Elves). I really wish Mental Misstep was still legal. :/ I think a form of graveyard hate is smart against ANT since we basically lose once they cast Past In Flames. Bog out of the board hasn't been enough. I added a couple Relic of Pregenitus, so we'll see how that goes.

Chatto
12-26-2014, 02:05 AM
Another top 4-finish by, I believe, Adrieng. Couldn't find it back here, so a link: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15452

I'm curious, just because I'm building the Rg Lands-deck atm, how the MU went against that deck (I would think this deck is just plain faster)

TLK
12-29-2014, 07:33 PM
I won a good 20+ matches online before losing to Storm. They always seem to go off the turn before I swing for 20. Super annoying. No idea what more to do against this matchup. I discard their hand into oblivion, yet they still manage to go off seemingly out of nowhere. Not sure what more to try. I've even considered Angel's Grace or something. Maybe even Leyline of Sanctity. I'm out of options. I will say that I have not been impressed with NotW at all. Sure, it's extra insurance, but I'd rather have more hate cards.

apple713
12-29-2014, 08:03 PM
I won a good 20+ matches online before losing to Storm. They always seem to go off the turn before I swing for 20. Super annoying. No idea what more to do against this matchup. I discard their hand into oblivion, yet they still manage to go off seemingly out of nowhere. Not sure what more to try. I've even considered Angel's Grace or something. Maybe even Leyline of Sanctity. I'm out of options. I will say that I have not been impressed with NotW at all. Sure, it's extra insurance, but I'd rather have more hate cards.

that's the general consensus on NOTW. Unfortunately it seems as though Storm requires more cards than we are willing to commit to it.

TLK
12-29-2014, 08:07 PM
It's super annoying to lose to it time and time again. Storm seems to be growing in popularity online, which makes me want to devote more slots. I just don't know what to select. I'm literally crushing nearly every other matchup. Only close ones are D&T and Miracles and other fast combo. Maverick is a tad annoying too.

apple713
12-29-2014, 09:34 PM
It's super annoying to lose to it time and time again. Storm seems to be growing in popularity online, which makes me want to devote more slots. I just don't know what to select. I'm literally crushing nearly every other matchup. Only close ones are D&T and Miracles and other fast combo. Maverick is a tad annoying too.

maverick parallels D&T and can be worse because of utility lands.

TLK
12-29-2014, 09:51 PM
Agreed. I ran into the version running black and the combo and it was definitely tricky.

crux
12-30-2014, 04:47 PM
Hi guys, I'm trying to run a more streamline version of the deck. The decklist is as follow

//Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

//Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World

//Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize

//Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

//Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Land (27)
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

//Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Nature's Claim
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

If possible, could you tell me any tips and whether this deck could work or not. Thanks in advance.

adrieng
01-06-2015, 06:36 AM
I have been testing two tops in the gemstone mine slot. I think it should be ok, I was a lot of time flooded with lands and these two tops might find a green manasource/map or the combo anyway.
It also gives a good late game.
Three might be too much, you never want to see two which happens a lot with 3.
Testing some changes in side null rod and krosan grip for miracle and storm ; instead of ratchet bomb and one grudge and sage. It might be ok but I like the versatility of ratchet bomb at answering things like needle on thespian.
Decay could have done the same work but it doesn't answer blood moon if you are not ready for it.
Also could try some Night of soul's betryal's which might be very good in current metagame from The miracle's guy Bug deck.tech maybe a one or two off in side cause it is a bit slow (I have been thinking of a version with 3 main and ancient tomb+trini to accelerate
but it has not been anywhere concluant yet life loss is a pain and more color screwed).

TLK
01-06-2015, 02:13 PM
I have been considering 4 Lotus Petal main for some added acceleration. There are many times when I want to play an Expedition Map and play a discard spell turn 1. I would probably cut the Tabernacle and maybe the Blasts to make room.

I'm still not happy with my sodeboard. Do we really need Pyroclasm AND Deluge? I think we are already pretty favored against the decks for which we would want Pyroclasm (URx Delver, Elves). I'd rather have more in the board to fight combo and Miracles, as adrien suggests.

Thoughts?

adrieng
01-06-2015, 03:04 PM
Lotus petal is bad, I have been already playing them in the past but we don't need acceleration anymore because we are slowing down opponent thanks to discard and reb.
Which was a problem before cause the deck had more tutor but nothing to slow down opponent (aka Into the North and Not of this world firsts builds)

Do we really need Pyroclasm AND Deluge?
Yes we want them against lot of decks elfes is not so easy ; you should mulligan on the draw in either a turn 2 sweeper turn 3 kill or turn 4 kill with duress/kozilek backup or discard+turn 3 sweeper.
A turn 3 sweeper without discard or a needle is often too slow.
Pyroclasm is also good against UR/Bug tempo/Goblin/painter/Death and taxes. I wouldn't play less than 2.

I am testing this version :

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

The miracle and storm matchups are greatly improved after side. The two top gives more consistency when your library is decayed/countered and such and helps getting less mana flooded.
I cut one grudge, not that it is not needed but bringing 2 grudge and 1 grip might be an ok switch.
The problem of not playing ratchet bomb might be an issue to pithing needle. So we might bring some grip (if you expect enchantment+artifact see URdelver Moon)/grudge (Rugdelver Bugdelver Jund elves) in his place 2-3.
Though it can be sometimes problematic ; the multiple applications of ratchet bomb are awesome. Just a matter of metagame and what you expect in your opponent's side.

TLK
01-06-2015, 04:33 PM
I'm fine with keeping 2 Pyroclasm in the side. I was running 4 online and 3 in paper so I can agree that 2 is a good number. Forgive me if I'm off base, but how is your sodeboard better equipped to handle Storm? Null Rod shuts off Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, but they can still win without those, right? It probably does slow them down a bit, though. Maybe I've just been sideboarding improperly in those matchups.

I do like the Tops main. Been thinking of doing that for a while. Glad to know that you're liking them.

apple713
01-06-2015, 06:13 PM
null rod helps but isn't a great answer...I think it shines because all we really need is to delay them a turn or two since our deck is almost as fast. nullifying 8 of their mana sources is big especially since they are free mana sources. However, if they have dark rituals / cabal rituals you might be able to cut off extra mana / PIF with a crop rotation into bojuka bog. There isn't a great deal the current configuration of this deck can do so it's unlikely you are doing something wrong. You may need to make better choices when discarding cards from their hand. Infernal tutor is commonly a good choice but you man need to choose something else depending on circumstances.

You can catch me online cockatrice now if you wanted to test or chat more about it.

TLK
01-06-2015, 08:04 PM
I don't have Cockatrice, unfortunately; only MTGO. I'll give Null Rods a try and see if they help slow Storm down. Miracles is incredibly annoying as well, so adrien's sideboard should help in that respect as well.

TLK
01-07-2015, 12:01 AM
Quick question: Does Needle stop Lotus Petal and/or Lion's Eye? I'm under the assumption at least LED cannot be Needled.

Edit I seriously hate Storm! Lost game 1 even though he mulled to 5. Had the token but he top decked Infernal Tutor. :/ Game 2, I had turn 2 token on the play, and he goes off turn 2. Why can't I beat this deck?!?

apple713
01-07-2015, 04:22 AM
Quick question: Does Needle stop Lotus Petal and/or Lion's Eye? I'm under the assumption at least LED cannot be Needled.

Edit I seriously hate Storm! Lost game 1 even though he mulled to 5. Had the token but he top decked Infernal Tutor. :/ Game 2, I had turn 2 token on the play, and he goes off turn 2. Why can't I beat this deck?!?

needle doesn't stop mana abilities so no to both. anything that is "<do something>: add <x> mana" is a mana ability. An exception is DRS because its "<do something>: <do something> & add <x> mana"


anyone try ethersworn canonist? she can be protected with sejiri steppe in a bind. Since we're in red there is also, pyrostatic pillar eidolon of the great revel

HdH_Cthulhu
01-07-2015, 04:22 AM
Everything can be needled (name a card). But you cant stop mana ability's like led or mountain.

Why 2 tops? With 4 sylvian library its like 6 tops!?

adrieng
01-07-2015, 04:36 AM
Why 2 tops? With 4 sylvian library its like 6 tops!?
The two tops are remplacing mana sources (2 gemstone mine), so that you don't get flooded with lands. The fact that the deck has already a good amount of lands (25 vs 27) imply that you can easily get the first colored land/map with top but you don't get flooded as often. It also gives a good late game when your library are destroyed/countered. Library is there to have an answer to swords to plownshare and dig through your combo I wouldn't play less than 4.

Null rod is quite good against storm they can sometimes chain Ritual for PiF (you may have crop for that) but it slows them down a lot you are most of the time one turn slower than them so it might be enough ; it is good against miracle answering tops/EE you have to take off your expedition map for that obviously. Not having ratchet bomb to answer entreatTheAngel might be an issue though.

I haven't extensively tested this side configuration so I might switch to first side (with ratchet bomb) which I tested a lot if it happened to not be working.

I also would like to test a one or two off Night soul's betrayal in side.

apple713
01-07-2015, 05:02 AM
The two tops are remplacing mana sources (2 gemstone mine), so that you don't get flooded with lands. The fact that the deck has already a good amount of lands (25 vs 27) imply that you can easily get the first colored land/map with top but you don't get flooded as often. It also gives a good late game when your library are destroyed/countered. Library is there to have an answer to swords to plownshare and dig through your combo I wouldn't play less than 4.

Null rod is quite good against storm they can sometimes chain Ritual for PiF (you may have crop for that) but it slows them down a lot you are most of the time one turn slower than them so it might be enough ; it is good against miracle answering tops/EE you have to take off your expedition map for that obviously. Not having ratchet bomb to answer entreatTheAngel might be an issue though.

I haven't extensively tested this side configuration so I might switch to first side (with ratchet bomb) which I tested a lot if it happened to not be working.

I also would like to test a one or two off Night soul's betrayal in side.

i've found that top isn't that great because i always want a business spell instead. additionally i found it to be mana intensive. its easily better than lands if you are getting flooded but ancient stirrings might be better.

im interested in hearing what you find out about night of souls betrayal. I really love that card but could never find the right deck for it. It kills our vamp hexmage too.

In 7 of our variable slots i'll be testing 4 meddling mages and 3 ethersworn canonist. mage seems like the dream card here cause it hits swords in addition to hitting combo cards. canonist is bad for omni, elves, Ant and other storm decks. when combined with mage its great. Not the best but may buy the turns that we need better than a discard spell... idk i'll test and report back.

EDIT* daring suggested teeg over canonist, and that actually sounds better since its effective against similar things canonist is and stronger when combined with mage. Teeg g1 against ant is a blow out normally and it also is good against FOW, planes walkers, treasure cruise, Sneak Attack, submerge, natural order, chalice, GSZ, all of miracles threats (jace, entreat the angels, terminus, engineered explosives)

TLK
01-07-2015, 08:11 AM
Would you reconfigure your mana base to accommodate for the addition of Teeg? Only 6 white sources (4 if you cut the Mines for Tops). Same goes for Mage, which is white/blue (both our "off" colors).

apple713
01-07-2015, 09:40 AM
Would you reconfigure your mana base to accommodate for the addition of Teeg? Only 6 white sources (4 if you cut the Mines for Tops). Same goes for Mage, which is white/blue (both our "off" colors).

ehh they get chain of vapor'd / abrupt decayed just as fast as you can draw them. mixed with the mana fixing issues its not the answer we are looking for. basically we draw them at the same pace they draw the answers but since they have better dig engine they are better off.

TLDR: teeg/mage not what we are looking for.


in my testing someone suggested sphere of resistance / thalia. sphere seems better just because its colorless and helps ever so slightly against elves.

thinisphere is a turn to slow and chalice isn't optimal since it hits more of our spells and they can still play around it.

TLK
01-07-2015, 09:49 AM
Sigh...back to square one.

adrieng
01-07-2015, 10:04 AM
i've found that top isn't that great because i always want a business spell instead. additionally i found it to be mana intensive. its easily better than lands if you are getting flooded but ancient stirrings might be better.

Top remplace Colored manasources stirings is uncastable with colorless mana ; The deck has a lot of colorless manasources and top is good with it ;


In 7 of our variable slots i'll be testing 4 meddling mages and 3 ethersworn canonist. mage seems like the dream card here cause it hits swords in addition to hitting combo cards. canonist is bad for omni, elves, Ant and other storm decks. when combined with mage its great. Not the best but may buy the turns that we need better than a discard spell... idk i'll test and report back.

If you remplace inquisition/duress/ reb with sh**t like teeg/meddling mage/canonist 2 CC you will likely lose to tempo WAY more often ;
those ONE cc are the best for what they do and there is no reason to play without them obviously they are better against some decks but they are not better in averaged.

This deck has not a very good ANT matchup just live with that (though I beat my two last ANT players irl mulligan aggresively is key).

TLK
01-07-2015, 10:27 AM
Yeah I wouldn't replace the discard spells. How do you mulligan against ANT, Adrien? What type of hand are you looking for? I feel I do a good job of picking the right spells with my discard effects, but they ALWAYS seem to go off the turn I can make a token and swing for 20 my next turn. Very frustrating. Perhaps I've been unlucky (like the guy last night having basically nothing in hand and top decking Infernal Tutor), but it's beginning to mess with me mentally haha.

adrieng
01-07-2015, 10:49 AM
How do you mulligan against ANT, Adrien?
You want either turn 3 kill on the play which most of the times ok ; or at least two discard/reb/library with a turn 4 kill. I don't say it is easy it is a bad matchup but sometimes you can win about 40%.
Though my opponent missplayed game 2 he went for PiF while he saw I had a crop in hand an get punished for that.

TLK
01-09-2015, 08:30 PM
Running Top main hurts a little against Miracles since you usually Needle their Top. If you side in Null Rod against them, you shut off your own Top and Map.

TLK
01-10-2015, 12:57 AM
Played in a Legacy FNM with judge foil lands up for grabs. Tried the two Tops main. Didn't like it. Felt myself short on colored lands. Lost round 1 to Miracles 0-2. Beat Goblins round 2. Lost to Miracles 0-2 round 3. Dropped after that. Didn't really draw my sideboard cards against Miracles, but regardless it's pretty miserable.

adrieng
01-10-2015, 01:37 AM
Yah I just wanted to test them, played a tornament went 3-2 with only one top and still was kind an issue once ;
lost to omni show and sneak show beat reanimator, deathblade and Urdelver.

TLK
01-10-2015, 03:18 AM
If Miracles remains prevalent in my area I may sideboard some Choke and Abrupt Decay.

apple713
01-10-2015, 03:26 AM
If Miracles remains prevalent in my area I may sideboard some Choke and Abrupt Decay.

it's unlikely we'll see an overall decline in miracles since it's matches are fairly even and allow player skill to tip the matches in your favor.

TLK
01-10-2015, 03:28 AM
Yeah, I agree, so I think I need to build by board accordingly. That deck fell out of favor when Decay was printed. Going to fit some in my side.

komondor
01-10-2015, 01:13 PM
I've played this deck in 3 local tourneys and at SCG Columbus and here are my opinions so far with the following list. This is the first legacy deck I've ever played too so keep that in mind.

4 Sylan Scrying, Crop Rotation, Expedition Map, Inquisition of Kozilek, Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Vampire Hexmage
3 Duress, Pyroblast

4 Dark Depths, Urborg, Thespian's Stage, Mana Confluence, Copperline Gorge
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Maze of Ith, Sejiri Steppe, Ghost Quarter, Forest

SB:
2 Reclamation Sage, Toxic Deluge, Pyroclasm, Ratchet Bomb, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge
1 Karakas, Bojuga Bog, Thoughtseize

At the local tourneys my record is a total of 11-1 (4-0,4-0,3-1). My single loss was to show and tell. I managed to win game 2 but couldn't do anything game 3. At SCG Columbus I went 3-3. Lost to ANT (game 3 on turn 1), D&T (Should have gone for it a second time more aggressively + game 2 I drew a land 11 of 12 turns), and to UR burn (mulled to 5 both games I lost).

So far I've had a lot of fun playing it and it seems to do pretty well but the combo matchups are horrendous. That's made me think that a BUG list like the following might be better suited.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76089

I'm not a fan of the lotus petals and initially would probably start with a 4th Ponder, 4th Inquisition, 2nd Urborg, and 2nd Stage. Not sure. I really like the thought of FOW because it gives good game against the combo decks. Even on turn 1.

TLK
01-10-2015, 01:45 PM
Interesting list. It seems with the Dark Rituals and Petals you're foregoing the late game, as those are dead draws as the game goes on. I'd definitely add a second Stage. Blue might be something we need to consider more thoroughly.

apple713
01-10-2015, 03:23 PM
Interesting list. It seems with the Dark Rituals and Petals you're foregoing the late game, as those are dead draws as the game goes on. I'd definitely add a second Stage. Blue might be something we need to consider more thoroughly.

this deck just looks very sketchy. Dark rituals dont really add much to the deck unless you lotus petal t1 with dark rit and dark depths. Dark ritual pretty much requires a lotus petal to really benefit the deck and it doesnt really seem efficient to or better to rely on a 4 card combo (ritual petal depths hexmage/stage). It could help t2 with ritual hexmage discard spell depths. I feel like if you are going to run counterspells and discard spells you can afford to remove the excessive speed to improve consistency and solve other issues.

TLK
01-10-2015, 03:36 PM
That's what I'm thinking too. I'm not against the inclusion of blue, but I don't like Rituals and Petals. What do you think of Abrupt Decay in the side? Have you had any experience with this?

apple713
01-10-2015, 04:31 PM
That's what I'm thinking too. I'm not against the inclusion of blue, but I don't like Rituals and Petals. What do you think of Abrupt Decay in the side? Have you had any experience with this?

helps against miracles but not ant / combo...

TLK
01-10-2015, 04:51 PM
I realize that, but after last night I clearly need a boost against Miracles. I've run out of ideas for Storm.

apple713
01-10-2015, 05:00 PM
I realize that, but after last night I clearly need a boost against Miracles. I've run out of ideas for Storm.

maybe if there was a way to optimize a BUG list to have access to counterspells and discard.

komondor
01-10-2015, 05:57 PM
this deck just looks very sketchy. Dark rituals dont really add much to the deck unless you lotus petal t1 with dark rit and dark depths. Dark ritual pretty much requires a lotus petal to really benefit the deck and it doesnt really seem efficient to or better to rely on a 4 card combo (ritual petal depths hexmage/stage). It could help t2 with ritual hexmage discard spell depths. I feel like if you are going to run counterspells and discard spells you can afford to remove the excessive speed to improve consistency and solve other issues.

I actually missed the rituals that time going through the list. I went through it a couple of weeks ago and noted to myself that I wasn't sure they would be great. Not sure what to replace them with. Go up to full 4 Stage and preordains or spell pierce/snare?

apple713
01-11-2015, 03:55 AM
I actually missed the rituals that time going through the list. I went through it a couple of weeks ago and noted to myself that I wasn't sure they would be great. Not sure what to replace them with. Go up to full 4 Stage and preordains or spell pierce/snare?

played the deck a few times and as expected lotus petal and ritual are excessive. Id suggest the following changes to test

-4 daze (land drops are important)
-4 dark ritual
-4 lotus petal

+3 thespian's stage
+3 spell pierce
+4 expedition map
+2 Abrupt Decay

the decay's main deck should help against miracles. Ideal # would be 3 main i think but couldn't figure out what to cut. Id also probably find a way to work in basic forest main deck. I didn't look at sideboard really but id probably make quite a few changes.

This is what i'll try testing and report results and whether further testing would prove beneficial. (Further testing recommended see edit below)

Not Lands 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Expedition Map
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Vampire Hexmage

Lands 24
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Not of This World
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage


*EDIT - after a handful of matches id recommend further testing. Nothing jumped out at me as terribly wrong. My recommendations as of now are possibly working another blue card into the deck to get to 16 blue cards which is the minimum to really be able to justify FOW. Also, I'm sure the manabase could be reworked to include more Urborgs, sejeri steppe, maze of ith, or others. I wouldn't touch the 7 fetch lands since i've generally found 7 to be the least amount to get the most out of brainstorms and ponders.

compared to the original list in the OP outside of the obvious changes to the manabase the following changes were made

-4 sylvan library
-4 sylvan scrying
-4 Pithing Needle
-3 Pyroblast
-3 lands

+4 Brainstorm
+3 Ponder
+1 Discard Spell (thought seize, duress, inquisition)
+4 Force of will
+4 Spell Pierce
+2 Abrupt Decay

Functionally the deck plays very similarly to the op because the following are roughly equatable

sylvan library & sylvan scrying -> Brainstorm & Ponder (card draw / tutor)
Needle & blasts -> FOW & Spell Pierce & discard (protection)
Lands -> Abrupt decays (makes sense to cut lands since Adrien experienced flooding)

TLK
01-11-2015, 03:15 PM
Lost to Storm a few times again last night. Still winless against it overall. Probably like 0-30 at this point. Getting comical now. I'm up for anything that lets me beat that deck just once.

apple713
01-11-2015, 04:55 PM
Lost to Storm a few times again last night. Still winless against it overall. Probably like 0-30 at this point. Getting comical now. I'm up for anything that lets me beat that deck just once.

Did you test the list above? I think you will find it much better against ant. Almost double the hate main as you are currently running.

TLK
01-11-2015, 05:18 PM
Not yet. I'll probably sleeve it up for this Thursday's event.

apple713
01-12-2015, 01:48 AM
Not yet. I'll probably sleeve it up for this Thursday's event.

i was able to do some more testing with it and have grown more fond of it. it still needs to be optimized and I'm not quite sure how to go about it because i haven't played enough games. I did get a chance to play against ant / multiple delver decks / and miracles.

@ANT

I think it went better with this version than the other just because I was able to advance my land drops while detaining them with both counterspells and discard. Normally we have ~6 discard against them which is close to what they have and since they are generally faster than us they have the advantage. With this blue version there are more defense spells and it just seemed to run their hand empty and then make the token

@ delver tempo

The discard spells took creature threats to slow them down, and although we only had 2 abrupt decays game 1, boarding in the remaining 2 makes the match much easier.

@ miracles

abrupt decays / surgical extraction / pithing needle make this much better than before. Pithing needle hits most of their threats (jace & SDT) and abrupt decay keeps them off counterbalance.

TLK
01-12-2015, 12:38 PM
Great news. I never had a problem with Delver. My win % is super high against Delver strategies in my advanced testing with the original build. I actually am relieved when I see my opponent drop a T1 Delver.

Can you post the full 75 for reference, or link me to where it was posted before? I know you did the +/- reconciliation to the original build but I don't recall if you ever posted the full list

Edit - is it the same list as shown in a few posts above?

komondor
01-12-2015, 01:18 PM
i was able to do some more testing with it and have grown more fond of it. it still needs to be optimized and I'm not quite sure how to go about it because i haven't played enough games. I did get a chance to play against ant / multiple delver decks / and miracles.

@ANT

I think it went better with this version than the other just because I was able to advance my land drops while detaining them with both counterspells and discard. Normally we have ~6 discard against them which is close to what they have and since they are generally faster than us they have the advantage. With this blue version there are more defense spells and it just seemed to run their hand empty and then make the token

@ delver tempo

The discard spells took creature threats to slow them down, and although we only had 2 abrupt decays game 1, boarding in the remaining 2 makes the match much easier.

@ miracles

abrupt decays / surgical extraction / pithing needle make this much better than before. Pithing needle hits most of their threats (jace & SDT) and abrupt decay keeps them off counterbalance.


Glad to hear it's showing some promise. I don't have all the cards yet to sleeve it up but I like having some game against the combo decks. While driving last night I was thinking if it would be worth it to just run UB. While it's not going to be anywhere near the efficiency as it would be in a delver deck, I think Cruise could be decent. Plus it ups the # of blue cards for FOW. With all the discard, cantrips, and fetchlands, cruise should be pretty good. Should also be really helpful if you have to go off again. Just threw this list together. Maybe instead of 1 daze or 1 of the cruises a catchall bounce spell.

4 Hexmage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition
4 Expedition
4 Underground
1 Urborg
4 Depths
4 Stage
4 Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 island
1 swamp
1 Wasteland

apple713
01-12-2015, 04:17 PM
Glad to hear it's showing some promise. I don't have all the cards yet to sleeve it up but I like having some game against the combo decks. While driving last night I was thinking if it would be worth it to just run UB. While it's not going to be anywhere near the efficiency as it would be in a delver deck, I think Cruise could be decent. Plus it ups the # of blue cards for FOW. With all the discard, cantrips, and fetchlands, cruise should be pretty good. Should also be really helpful if you have to go off again. Just threw this list together. Maybe instead of 1 daze or 1 of the cruises a catchall bounce spell.

~Decklist list with treasure cruise


I have considered treasure cruise. However Dig through time may actually be better since it possibly finds our combo outright. Initially id consider cutting expedition map but i don't think any rendition can afford to cut green. Crop rotation is, in my opinion, the first card added to the deck after stage depths and hexmage. It protects against wasteland and is an instant tutor for our any piece of our combo.



Great news. I never had a problem with Delver. My win % is super high against Delver strategies in my advanced testing with the original build. I actually am relieved when I see my opponent drop a T1 Delver.

Can you post the full 75 for reference, or link me to where it was posted before? I know you did the +/- reconciliation to the original build but I don't recall if you ever posted the full list

Edit - is it the same list as shown in a few posts above?

I posted the list I'm working on in the OP under "currently being tested" so we can find it easier.

Lio
01-12-2015, 04:33 PM
Jammed in several games with BUG list with several adjustments and deck itself plays quite well. Let's get to the decklist firstly.

Lands (22)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Wasteland
4x Dark Depths
2x Thespian Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4x Vampire Hexmage

4x Expedition Map
4x Force of WIll
3x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm (probably should be 4th spell pierce to counter b.moon or chalice or PWs)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Treasure Cruise
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Crop Rotation
2x Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Golgari Charm
2x Not of this World
1x Karakas
1x bojuka Bog
1x Null Rod
1x Grafdigger's Cage


BUG version of this deck has its core similar to BUG Delver so I thought why not to incorporate this strategy to the Depths somehow. Few explanations:

Treasure Cruise - velocity of this deck is high. Cantrips, fetchlands, discard, Crop Rotation, etc. TC is reliably castable around 4th turn. Especially good after going for combo. It serves the similar purpose as Sylvan Library does. Marit Lage gets plow'ed? np. +20 life gives us necessary time and TC draws gas just for one mana. Can be pitched to FoW. Works great with Delver plan.

22 Lands - 22 lands - 4 depths - 2 thespian stages = 16 color-producing lands. More than enough for our 1cc and 2cc spells. There is also reason in this land count for Delver plan. For reference BUG Delver plays 15 color-producing lands and 4 colorless.

2 Thespian Stage - I have played about 15 games with the deck and usually got one copy when I needed it. We don't need colorless mana except for combo activation and Expedition Map.

8 Fetches and 6 Dual lands are just fine.

1 Urborg - I would love to play second copy, but what to cut?

Delver Plan - I can imagine we may beat combo decks just by playing lands, some cantrips and by disrupting their game plan and when they are depleted, kill them. But land T1 or T2 threat and then just ride for the victory with counter backup is much more reliable plan. I think this transformational sideboard gives us the edge against Miracles. Delver bites for 3, Goyf for 4-5, Marit is lethal. Just overload them with threats while sitting on counterspells and trying to stop their gamebreaking spells. Treasure Cruises help a lot here to refill the hand. I believe Delver can be smthg else, for example Vendilion Clique. It needs lot of testing though.

SB plan against Storm:
-4 Expedition MAp
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Dark Depths
-1 Wasteland
-1 Thespian Stage
-1 Vampire Hexmage
-1 Crop Rotation/Treasure Cruise

+4 Goyf
+4 Delver
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Null Rod
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Golgari Charm

SB plan against MIracles:
-4 Expedition Map
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Dark Depths (not sure here)
-2 Crop Rotation
-1 Thoughtseize
(-1 ??)

+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Delver
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Null Rod
(+1 Not of this World)

apple713
01-12-2015, 04:56 PM
BUG version of this deck has its core similar to BUG Delver so I thought why not to incorporate this strategy to the Depths somehow. Few explanations:

Treasure Cruise - velocity of this deck is high. Cantrips, fetchlands, discard, Crop Rotation, etc. TC is reliably castable around 4th turn. Especially good after going for combo. It serves the similar purpose as Sylvan Library does. Marit Lage gets plow'ed? np. +20 life gives us necessary time and TC draws gas just for one mana. Can be pitched to FoW. Works great with Delver plan.

22 Lands - 22 lands - 4 depths - 2 thespian stages = 16 color-producing lands. More than enough for our 1cc and 2cc spells. There is also reason in this land count for Delver plan. For reference BUG Delver plays 15 color-producing lands and 4 colorless.

2 Thespian Stage - I have played about 15 games with the deck and usually got one copy when I needed it. We don't need colorless mana except for combo activation and Expedition Map.

8 Fetches and 6 Dual lands are just fine.

1 Urborg - I would love to play second copy, but what to cut?

Delver Plan - I can imagine we may beat combo decks just by playing lands, some cantrips and by disrupting their game plan and when they are depleted, kill them. But land T1 or T2 threat and then just ride for the victory with counter backup is much more reliable plan. I think this transformational sideboard gives us the edge against Miracles. Delver bites for 3, Goyf for 4-5, Marit is lethal. Just overload them with threats while sitting on counterspells and trying to stop their gamebreaking spells. Treasure Cruises help a lot here to refill the hand. I believe Delver can be smthg else, for example Vendilion Clique. It needs lot of testing though.


Intersting list. It's very close to what i had been testing. There is a 3 card difference you cut 2 thespian's stage for 2 treasure cruise and cut 1 discard spell for a ponder. Our sideboards are totally different as mine is in transition. My only concern about your SB is that it doesn't seem to have answers for opponents sideboard cards it simply just changes its strategy which is a huge gamble until further testing.

If you want another urborg you can cut 1 fetchaland but i wouldn't go below 7. 22 lands seems a little low just because we need to reliably hit 4 lands by turn 4. we don't wanna miss land drops in this deck.

in your list with only 2 stages it may be better to run dig through time. I could see that :u::u: could be a problem occasionally, but if you are normally casting it T4 anyways it really shouldn't be. Additionally DTT can be cast EOT so you can still leave mana open for pierce. DTT is the preferred card for combo decks as evidenced by omnitell, high tide, and sneak and show. Additionally, in extreme corner case situations DTT can be used to remove a land that is being targeted by surgical extraction.

Lio
01-12-2015, 05:08 PM
Well, I took your list and make some changes :). I like the idea of very interactive Depths Combo deck. Super-entertaining!

I tried DTT but there were games where I had U.Sea + Bayou or U.Sea + Urborg and DTT in hand and desperately needed to refuel my hand. But you are right about DTT, it is better in combo decks than TC.

22 lands might seem low but don't forget I play 8 cantrips + 4x Crop rotation. And if we assume that 1 cantrip = 0,5 land then I feel pretty safe. I am more concern about constantly having blue source on T1. With enough blue mana we can efficiently dig through the deck.

About my SB: If the transformational sideboard won't work (and I don't have high expectations), I will switch back to the normal SB.

edit: I would switch second Bayou for second Tropical Island. Blue mana is much more important than black/green on the first turn and decides whether to mulligan or not as this deck relies much more on blue than on black.

Chatto
01-12-2015, 05:14 PM
Interesting to see this change from it's initial form into yet another Blue-based deck. It's a shame really, but it was bound to happen one time

apple713
01-12-2015, 05:53 PM
Well, I took your list and make some changes :). I like the idea of very interactive Depths Combo deck. Super-entertaining!

I tried DTT but there were games where I had U.Sea + Bayou or U.Sea + Urborg and DTT in hand and desperately needed to refuel my hand. But you are right about DTT, it is better in combo decks than TC.

22 lands might seem low but don't forget I play 8 cantrips + 4x Crop rotation. And if we assume that 1 cantrip = 0,5 land then I feel pretty safe. I am more concern about constantly having blue source on T1. With enough blue mana we can efficiently dig through the deck.

About my SB: If the transformational sideboard won't work (and I don't have high expectations), I will switch back to the normal SB.

edit: I would switch second Bayou for second Tropical Island. Blue mana is much more important than black/green on the first turn and decides whether to mulligan or not as this deck relies much more on blue than on black.

i don't know that i would drop 2 stages for treasure cruise. Maybe testing 1 cruise and 1 dig would be ok. I just fear that tc still gives us blank draws. id agree that tropical might be better than a second bayou.


Interesting to see this change from it's initial form into yet another Blue-based deck. It's a shame really, but it was bound to happen one time

yeah it feels like selling your soul to the devil. However, you can look at it this way, if the deck turns out to be better than we have a superior deck. If something happens to blue in the future and it gets hated on or BS banned, the deck has a fall back plan.




EDIT*** the deck has started to really upset me because I'm running into colored mana problems. Maybe its because I'm not searching the right land initially or something but not having the right color really causes game losses and its the reason that the original version runs rainbow lands. The only issue with using rainbows in the list I'm testing now is that it kills brainstorms and ponders effectiveness. idk maybe theres another way to get it accomplished.

Lio
01-13-2015, 04:18 PM
I've been playing with modified list, because I was unsatisfied with my manabase. As you wrote apple, the deck lacked colored mana sometimes. I need to incorporate Maze of Ith into the deck to buy the time against Batterskull. When they hit us once or twice and get above 20, it becomes difficult to win. I have lost against JUND today! Playing blue paid its price by getting screwed with multiple Pyroblasts...

Updated manabase:

4x Dark Depths
3x Thespian Stage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (I would like to up the count to 3 to have more consistant T3 kill)
3x Mana Confluence
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacomb
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Wasteland

4x Force of Will
4x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Expedition Map
2x Treasure Cruise
4x Thoughtseize (or TS/IoK split)
1x Dimir Charm (kill creatures like SFM, Clique, Confi, Deathrite and serves as a hard counter against variety of spells)
1x Sylvan Scrying

I got back to the classic sideboard because playset of Pithing Needles is necessity. I miss Delver and Tarmo in UW blade matchup though.

apple713
01-13-2015, 06:41 PM
@ lio

I dont know how comfortable I am cutting abrupt decay. Its really nice main against delve / miracles. Maybe i just really like knowing that its never getting countered.

I recently considered playing more of a tempo style deck with stifles and maybe 3 tc. With 0 pithing needle main but stifle instead, you up the blue count and gain protection against wasteland, maze, karakas, liliana, storm and griselbrand / sneak.

After reading all of the benefits im unsure why we were not playing it to begin with.

TLK
01-15-2015, 12:06 AM
Have you tested Stifle yet?

apple713
01-15-2015, 12:41 AM
Have you tested Stifle yet?

no i've been binging diablo3's new patch for the last couple days :P

Lio
01-15-2015, 12:32 PM
Pff, screw Diablo. Hope you play PC version :P.

TLK@
I am testing Stifle list at the moment with interesting results. This version have good results in matches where adriengs version has weakness - combo matchups - Reanimator, Storm, SnT, glass cannon decks, etc. I have some troubles with previously good matchups though - Jund, decks with Mother of Ruins and fliers (lack of Sejiri maindeck), weird home brews, etc. Well tuned sideboard could turn the waves hopefully.

My current decklist:

Lands (24, 19 mana)
4x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith (I would LOVE to play Wasteland, Maze and Sejiri all in the deck, but we have space just for one. And I've lost to BSK way too often)
3x Thespian Stage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
3x Mana Confluence

4x Expedition Map
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Treasure Cruise

SB:
1x Hydroblast
1x Envelop (MVP)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Wasteland (not sure here)
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Not of this World
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Golgari Charm (I would prefer 1 Charm and 2 copies of Toxic Delug, but owe only one)
1x flex slot - Duress, Pithing Needle, mass removal, Sylvan Library, spot removal ...

I admit sideboard is not the perfect. It needs some work. But I haven't played enough games to make a statement. Besides maindeck is very tight so sideboarding is VERY difficult.

edit: happened me twice that I won the game with removing all 10 counters (twice in same game against UW blade!) by paying mana while delaying the opponent and collecting some protection as FoW, TS and NotW.

komondor
01-15-2015, 02:06 PM
Pff, screw Diablo. Hope you play PC version :P.

TLK@
I am testing Stifle list at the moment with interesting results. This version have good results in matches where adriengs version has weakness - combo matchups - Reanimator, Storm, SnT, glass cannon decks, etc. I have some troubles with previously good matchups though - Jund, decks with Mother of Ruins and fliers (lack of Sejiri maindeck), weird home brews, etc. Well tuned sideboard could turn the waves hopefully.

My current decklist:

Lands (24, 19 mana)
4x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith (I would LOVE to play Wasteland, Maze and Sejiri all in the deck, but we have space just for one. And I've lost to BSK way too often)
3x Thespian Stage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
3x Mana Confluence

4x Expedition Map
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Treasure Cruise

SB:
1x Hydroblast
1x Envelop (MVP)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Wasteland (not sure here)
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Not of this World
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Golgari Charm (I would prefer 1 Charm and 2 copies of Toxic Delug, but owe only one)
1x flex slot - Duress, Pithing Needle, mass removal, Sylvan Library, spot removal ...

I admit sideboard is not the perfect. It needs some work. But I haven't played enough games to make a statement. Besides maindeck is very tight so sideboarding is VERY difficult.

edit: happened me twice that I won the game with removing all 10 counters (twice in same game against UW blade!) by paying mana while delaying the opponent and collecting some protection as FoW, TS and NotW.

How great has Expedition Map been? I feel like with the increased card draw it's not quite as important. Possibly -4 Map +1 Steppe, +1 Wasteland, +1 Cruise/DTT, +1 Something else

Lio
01-15-2015, 02:36 PM
Expedition is necessary to find the combo pieces in time. Cantrips are good, but you need the way to find exactly what you need. And it fits the tempo style of the deck. Pay one mana and sit on counterspells/brainstorms/play TS. And you can activate it at the end of turn when it's safe. I think you would have to replace Expedition Map with smthg like Sylvan Scrying (but 2cc sorcery is bad here) or Preordain or such. I think the deck can afford to lower the number to 3 Expedition Maps in favor of Sejiri or Wasteland. Or singleton Abrupt Decay. Catch-all removal comes handy sometimes.

DTT is bad here as we don¨t play enough blue mana sources. TC allows us to play it for one blue mana and keep the other one for Spell Pierce, BS or Stifle. I would like to add the dual land count up to 5, but can't justify it by cutting any relevant card. Maybe ThoughtseizE? It's nombo when you draw both of them in your opening - go for T1 discard to keep them from turn 1 play, or keep the mana up for fetchlands? I like smthg like T1 fetch, go. Opp fetch, go. I play land, play TS. Opp wants to respond with BS, so crack the fetchland and runs directly into Stifle. So they end up without land and the card they wanted to hide from TS. But this play is risky as it slows our development.

apple713
01-15-2015, 05:30 PM
Expedition is necessary to find the combo pieces in time. Cantrips are good, but you need the way to find exactly what you need. And it fits the tempo style of the deck. Pay one mana and sit on counterspells/brainstorms/play TS. And you can activate it at the end of turn when it's safe. I think you would have to replace Expedition Map with smthg like Sylvan Scrying (but 2cc sorcery is bad here) or Preordain or such. I think the deck can afford to lower the number to 3 Expedition Maps in favor of Sejiri or Wasteland. Or singleton Abrupt Decay. Catch-all removal comes handy sometimes.

DTT is bad here as we don¨t play enough blue mana sources. TC allows us to play it for one blue mana and keep the other one for Spell Pierce, BS or Stifle. I would like to add the dual land count up to 5, but can't justify it by cutting any relevant card. Maybe ThoughtseizE? It's nombo when you draw both of them in your opening - go for T1 discard to keep them from turn 1 play, or keep the mana up for fetchlands? I like smthg like T1 fetch, go. Opp fetch, go. I play land, play TS. Opp wants to respond with BS, so crack the fetchland and runs directly into Stifle. So they end up without land and the card they wanted to hide from TS. But this play is risky as it slows our development.

I dont like expedition map in here very much either. Im thinking about cutting 1-2 in favor of cards like sejiri. Since there is no basic forest it is not nearly as useful. I would rather play 2 preordain or gitaxian probe.

So far ive been liking stifle. I run 3. I also run 3 urborg but havent made a spot for maze. I feel like i need sejiri. There have been a large number of time when it would have won me the game. I also feel like spell pierce is more of a tempo card than a protection spell for swords or something. What happens is unless you can suprise them with eot crop rotation they just keep mana open and its worthless. Additionally, i got submerged yesterday for the first time in a year. I really dont like forests.

komondor
01-16-2015, 12:53 AM
So I ran the following tonight and went 4-1 and took 2nd out of 18. Lost to the guy that went 5-0

4 Depths, Verdant Catacombs
3 Thespian Stage, Mana Confluence, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta
2 Urborg, Tropical Island
1 Bayou, Maze of Ith, Sejiri Steppe

4 Crop Rotation, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Ponder, Hexmage, Thoughtseize
3 Stifle, Treasure Cruise, Spell Pierce

SB
2 Ratchet Bomb, Abrupt Decay, Toxic Deluge, Surgical Extraction, Not of this World
1 Karakas, Bojuga Bog, Duress, BEB, Pithing Needle

R1 - Fabiano's BUG list - Straight murdered it. 2-0
R2 - Manaless Dredge - won 2-1. I only lost a game because I'm an idiot. Surgical extraction made this pretty easy.
R3 - Miracles - won 2-1. Lost game one to a naked counterbalance. If he hit a 1cc he wins if not I win. He won. Crushed game 2 with 2 thoughtseize. Won game 3 thanks to Sejiri Steppe and Not of this World in the same turn to get through Karakas/STP on turn 4
R4 - UR Delver - Lost 2-0. He won the die roll and killed me turn 4. Game 2 not really sure why I lost. We played 4 more games afterwards and I won all 4.
R5 - Lands - Won 2-1. Not of this world won the match again.

So Cruise wasn't anywhere near as good as I thought. I'm thinking -2 Cruise +1 Stifle +1 Not of this World main. SB I'm not so sure. I sided every card at least once. Taking cards out was really difficult as well.

Lio
01-16-2015, 03:28 AM
Nice results! I see you've cut Expedition Map entirely. Did you not miss it? How consistent was going for combo?

About SB: Do you think Ratchet Bomb is necessary? I know this card is sweet and all, but you want it in the matchups where you need Abrupt Decay as well. I feel like I wouldn't know what to cut. Sideboarding is pain with this deck :D.

adrieng
01-16-2015, 04:00 AM
Yeah I think the blue shell is a very good option if you want to beat others combo deck and your have also a way safer manabase which used with previous builds to cause lot of mulligans issues.
I still think I want more sylvan libraries here at least seems better in side than Not of this world. I like the expedition map though.

komondor
01-16-2015, 08:06 AM
Nice results! I see you've cut Expedition Map entirely. Did you not miss it? How consistent was going for combo?

About SB: Do you think Ratchet Bomb is necessary? I know this card is sweet and all, but you want it in the matchups where you need Abrupt Decay as well. I feel like I wouldn't know what to cut. Sideboarding is pain with this deck :D.

I didn't miss Map. The only time I had issues was when I sac'd a trop for Crop Rotation and then later drew another crop rotation that I couldn't cast. I never drew Ratchet bomb. I only sided it in vs Delver. It's basically the only way to get Blood Moon off the table once it resolves. I thought about a forest k-grip package but Ratchet Bomb saved me slots. Not sure what's correct.


Yeah I think the blue shell is a very good option if you want to beat others combo deck and your have also a way safer manabase which used with previous builds to cause lot of mulligans issues.
I still think I want more sylvan libraries here at least seems better in side than Not of this world. I like the expedition map though.

Actually, now that you mention it I'll probably drop the 2 cruises for 2 Sylvans. I really like the NOTW in the match ups where I want it. IE Lands/D&T/Miracles. You're basically racing and allows you to go all out since it's free. I would really like to get a Wasteland in somewhere.

apple713
01-16-2015, 01:57 PM
I didn't miss Map. The only time I had issues was when I sac'd a trop for Crop Rotation and then later drew another crop rotation that I couldn't cast. I never drew Ratchet bomb. I only sided it in vs Delver. It's basically the only way to get Blood Moon off the table once it resolves. I thought about a forest k-grip package but Ratchet Bomb saved me slots. Not sure what's correct.

Actually, now that you mention it I'll probably drop the 2 cruises for 2 Sylvans. I really like the NOTW in the match ups where I want it. IE Lands/D&T/Miracles. You're basically racing and allows you to go all out since it's free. I would really like to get a Wasteland in somewhere.

ratchet bomb kills tokens, flying delvers, blood moons and magus's. you can play it after a it hits too. sure that doesn't happen all that often but tokens do in miracles / UR and shorty with that new white card. Kills batter skull token too Lio.

Kgrip forest package is nice but only for blood moon really. You are gonna hate yourself when you draw that forest any other time because you're only green card is crop rotation. You would be better off running island for a bounce spell and then trying to discard it. That way you can fetch for it at least and dig while you search for your bounce spell.

Sylvan library seems redundant with all the brainstorm's and ponders. I could be wrong but if any a low number would be the most i'd consider (1-2).

I really love crop rotation but it really seems to be causing problems with the manabase. This is why the original list ran rainbows. Unless the manabase can be perfected it may be necessary to test without it. Somehow other combo decks like Sneak and show and omni do alright without direct tutors. On the other hand you have decks like Ant that does have direct tutors and they do exceptionally well.

One of the benefits of brainstorm is that you can run a small number of conditional cards like Not of this world because you can always shuffle them back and fetch them away.


@Komodor

How did you like stifle?

komondor
01-16-2015, 05:41 PM
ratchet bomb kills tokens, flying delvers, blood moons and magus's. you can play it after a it hits too. sure that doesn't happen all that often but tokens do in miracles / UR and shorty with that new white card. Kills batter skull token too Lio.

Kgrip forest package is nice but only for blood moon really. You are gonna hate yourself when you draw that forest any other time because you're only green card is crop rotation. You would be better off running island for a bounce spell and then trying to discard it. That way you can fetch for it at least and dig while you search for your bounce spell.

Sylvan library seems redundant with all the brainstorm's and ponders. I could be wrong but if any a low number would be the most i'd consider (1-2).

I really love crop rotation but it really seems to be causing problems with the manabase. This is why the original list ran rainbows. Unless the manabase can be perfected it may be necessary to test without it. Somehow other combo decks like Sneak and show and omni do alright without direct tutors. On the other hand you have decks like Ant that does have direct tutors and they do exceptionally well.

One of the benefits of brainstorm is that you can run a small number of conditional cards like Not of this world because you can always shuffle them back and fetch them away.


@Komodor

How did you like stifle?

I loved Stifle! Especially on the play. Next Thursday if I go I'll try straight UB and see what happens without Crop Rotation. The other thing I loved about Brainstorm is that it was a way to get Sejiri Steppe back into the deck so it could be Crop Rotated. I'm not very familiar with Legacy, what blue bounce spell would be optimal? And I'll start thinking about a list for UB.

apple713
01-16-2015, 05:49 PM
I loved Stifle! Especially on the play. Next Thursday if I go I'll try straight UB and see what happens without Crop Rotation. The other thing I loved about Brainstorm is that it was a way to get Sejiri Steppe back into the deck so it could be Crop Rotated. I'm not very familiar with Legacy, what blue bounce spell would be optimal? And I'll start thinking about a list for UB.

echoing truth
rushing river
wipe away
rebuild
snap
hurkyl's recall

echoing truth might be the best depending on what you want it for because it removes all tokens too. I'm really glad to hear that stifle is working as expected. Also, really happy to be able to put seedier steppe back into the deck.

komondor
01-17-2015, 12:45 PM
echoing truth
rushing river
wipe away
rebuild
snap
hurkyl's recall

echoing truth might be the best depending on what you want it for because it removes all tokens too. I'm really glad to hear that stifle is working as expected. Also, really happy to be able to put seedier steppe back into the deck.

I think I'm going to try the following this Thursday and see how it does.


Lands
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Urborg
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lotus Petal
3 Stifle
4 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Not of this World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
2 Wipe Away
1 Blue Elemental Blast

I took most of Brad Nelson's blue base for Sneak Attack. I actually think that Lotus Petal will be really good in this deck since everything is 1 or 2 mana. I think Cruise will be a lot better in this than the BUG version so I'm going to try one.

apple713
01-17-2015, 08:57 PM
I think I'm going to try the following this Thursday and see how it does.


Lands
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Urborg
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lotus Petal
3 Stifle
4 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Not of this World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
2 Wipe Away
1 Blue Elemental Blast

I took most of Brad Nelson's blue base for Sneak Attack. I actually think that Lotus Petal will be really good in this deck since everything is 1 or 2 mana. I think Cruise will be a lot better in this than the BUG version so I'm going to try one.



I like what you have going on in this list. It's similar to what i would have drafted up. I think having the lotus petals is ok, but I'm not sold on them. I do like that they add to the grave count for delve, however i wish that i had more treasure cruises. Id immediately cut 1 preordain for at least 1 more treasure cruise, possibly 2. So far everything else is going well. I don't miss crop rotation terribly which I'm surprised about.

Maze of ith doesn't seem great because you can't tutor for it but it is nice when it shows up. When it does you can stage it to buy time too.

komondor
01-19-2015, 11:20 AM
I like what you have going on in this list. It's similar to what i would have drafted up. I think having the lotus petals is ok, but I'm not sold on them. I do like that they add to the grave count for delve, however i wish that i had more treasure cruises. Id immediately cut 1 preordain for at least 1 more treasure cruise, possibly 2. So far everything else is going well. I don't miss crop rotation terribly which I'm surprised about.

Maze of ith doesn't seem great because you can't tutor for it but it is nice when it shows up. When it does you can stage it to buy time too.

Well... I cut the Maze and 1 Preordain for 2 more TCs and then it got banned. ha! After putting the Preordain back I'm not sure what I should do with the other 2 slots. 2 Duress? 2 Dig Through Time? Maybe 1 of each. Maybe a DTT + NOTW. Possibly the 4th Stifle. Thoughts?

apple713
01-19-2015, 06:09 PM
Well... I cut the Maze and 1 Preordain for 2 more TCs and then it got banned. ha! After putting the Preordain back I'm not sure what I should do with the other 2 slots. 2 Duress? 2 Dig Through Time? Maybe 1 of each. Maybe a DTT + NOTW. Possibly the 4th Stifle. Thoughts?

i was thinking that if you are playing the UB version you could easily play Dig in treasure cruise's spot since everything produces blue now. The thing about dig is that its almost a tutor in itself. So while TC could prove fruitless Dig is significantly less likely to do so. If you need to wait a turn to find protection dig is the better choice, and now the only one.

I do know that now since TC is banned Post will be on the rise which is bad for us. Maybe with the UB shell it won't be terrible.

komondor
01-20-2015, 02:00 PM
i was thinking that if you are playing the UB version you could easily play Dig in treasure cruise's spot since everything produces blue now. The thing about dig is that its almost a tutor in itself. So while TC could prove fruitless Dig is significantly less likely to do so. If you need to wait a turn to find protection dig is the better choice, and now the only one.

I do know that now since TC is banned Post will be on the rise which is bad for us. Maybe with the UB shell it won't be terrible.

So just gold fishing I have decided there are too many lands. So the current diff from what I posted is.

-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Urborg
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 TC
+1 Duress
+3 Dig Through Time

komondor
01-23-2015, 08:17 PM
So just gold fishing I have decided there are too many lands. So the current diff from what I posted is.

-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Urborg
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 TC
+1 Duress
+3 Dig Through Time

U/B was pretty bad. Just couldn't find depths sometimes and then you were cantripping all day doing nothing in reality. Going to try Mono-B next. Thought it seemed fun.

Lands
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Expedition Map
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana Vess
4 Dark Confidant

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Not of this World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
3 Mindbreak Trap

Some other cards I've tossed around are Funeral Charm, Spinning Darkness, and Leyline.

adrieng
01-24-2015, 06:34 AM
here is my latest list :

The main change is the switch between reb and carpet of flowers this open the side option of slaughter games
which I dismissed before because of the 4 mana casting cost but with flower's power it can be hard card as soon as turn 2
against show and tell/ant decks.

I have been happy with both reb and carpet main for now.
Obviously without the ratchet bomb in side the painter's matchup and decks with side needle are a little more problematic ;
but with carpet U.decks with blood moon side are no more problematic.
I think the list in the open thread is ok but if you expect lot of miracle.deck the following list is way better.
Also the one off creeping tar is awesome against stoneblade and miracle.( don't forget to copy it with stage before attacking so that you always one backup).



4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
2 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Carpet of Flowers

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games

komondor
01-24-2015, 09:31 AM
here is my latest list :

The main change is the switch between reb and carpet of flowers this open the side option of slaughter games
which I dismissed before because of the 4 mana casting cost but with flower's power it can be hard card as soon as turn 2
against show and tell/ant decks.

I have been happy with both reb and carpet main for now.
Obviously without the ratchet bomb in side the painter's matchup and decks with side needle are a little more problematic ;
but with carpet U.decks with blood moon side are no more problematic.
I think the list in the open thread is ok but if you expect lot of miracle.deck the following list is way better.
Also the one off creeping tar is awesome against stoneblade and miracle.( don't forget to copy it with stage before attacking so that you always one backup).



4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
2 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Carpet of Flowers

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games


After this coming Thursday I was planning on going back to RGB and will give this a try. I will say that without the blue I will miss when I was on the draw and I forced t1 DRS, layed a Urborg and thoughtseized, forced t2 goyf, then dropped depths and hexmage. haha. The biggest problem with the blue is that the cantrips allow speculative keeps too easily and the rgb mulligans so amazingly to where you don't get blown out with speculative keeps. There was a game where I DTT'd twice and cast 6 other cantrips and couldn't find my first depths.

How's the 1 of SDT? Is it basically just Sylvan #5?

adrieng
01-24-2015, 10:06 AM
How's the 1 of SDT? Is it basically just Sylvan #5?
Take the slot off gemstone mine 2nd, I have been happy with it. Colorless mana can be used to find whatever you need.
Though I don't want more. One is fine.

apple713
01-24-2015, 12:29 PM
U/B was pretty bad. Just couldn't find depths sometimes and then you were cantripping all day doing nothing in reality. Going to try Mono-B next. Thought it seemed fun.

Lands
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Expedition Map
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana Vess
4 Dark Confidant

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Not of this World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
3 Mindbreak Trap

Some other cards I've tossed around are Funeral Charm, Spinning Darkness, and Leyline.

I'm surprised you thought U/B was pretty bad. I enjoyed it. I really like that tempo style deck. If you are looking for a tutor U/B actually has one of the best. Lim-Dûl's Vault. Also, if you are having trouble finding the combo in blue, black won't be any better. Furthermore, black has less access to removal. although liliana can lock a lot of games down if opponent sticks something other than a creature you could be in trouble. For example, ensnaring bridge.

PhyrexianPossum
01-24-2015, 03:22 PM
//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (15)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Land (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Underground Sea
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Not of This World
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt



If you aren't running Lim-dul's Vault, than you're doing it wrong. This card can have you cycle through most of your deck and is bananas in a two card combo deck.
With Cruise banned, I've been using 3 Hymn and it's very good as well, now that the only form or amazing card advantage is Vision. Thoughts on this build? I don't love lotus petal but am not sure what to replace it with.

komondor
01-24-2015, 06:09 PM
I'm surprised you thought U/B was pretty bad. I enjoyed it. I really like that tempo style deck. If you are looking for a tutor U/B actually has one of the best. Lim-Dûl's Vault. Also, if you are having trouble finding the combo in blue, black won't be any better. Furthermore, black has less access to removal. although liliana can lock a lot of games down if opponent sticks something other than a creature you could be in trouble. For example, ensnaring bridge.

Probably more of a results oriented thinking, which is incorrect. I really just didn't like cantripping and never hitting Depths.



//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (15)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Land (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Underground Sea
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Not of This World
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt



If you aren't running Lim-dul's Vault, than you're doing it wrong. This card can have you cycle through most of your deck and is bananas in a two card combo deck.
With Cruise banned, I've been using 3 Hymn and it's very good as well, now that the only form or amazing card advantage is Vision. Thoughts on this build? I don't love lotus petal but am not sure what to replace it with.

That's interesting. I completely forgot Lim-dul's Vault was a card but it does seem pretty sweet. Maybe I'll have to give that build a try.

TLK
02-02-2015, 01:59 PM
Any more testing/results on the original deck or the blue build? I've moved away from this deck lately to give Angel Prison a try, but I wanted to check back in with the group to see if there has been any further progess or groundbreaking ideas.

jmlima
02-03-2015, 04:38 PM
Guys, quick and small question, looking for a deck to recommend to a buddy.

How good would this deck (the one in the original post / primer) be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?

Thanks.

apple713
02-03-2015, 04:42 PM
Guys, quick and small question, looking for a deck to recommend to a buddy.

How good would this deck (the one in the original post / primer) be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?

Thanks.

it would do poorly. ant-tes is the weakest matchup, and miracles is like a ~45% chance of winning. Delver and stonewalled are fine matches but reanimated is sometimes faster and its not a great matchup.


Any more testing/results on the original deck or the blue build? I've moved away from this deck lately to give Angel Prison a try, but I wanted to check back in with the group to see if there has been any further progess or groundbreaking ideas.

No updates from me unfortunately. I've kinda halted testing for a while but the last time I did I was really enjoying the UB version. I didn't seem to have the same digging issues that had been previously mentioned. Lim-dul's vault helps a lot because its also a blue card and is instant speed. Although it doesn't put a card in your hand, which i really don't like, it can set you up if you need to draw a sequence of cards. Keep in mind that Expedition map is colorless and can be run in the deck as a tutor. It would make a good turn 2 play and you can keep mana open to counterspell or stifle something.

I actually enjoy playing this version more because the deck is almost entirely disruption. The last version I was testing is below. I cut the lotus petals because they are inflexible. They only accelerate, but if there is nothing to accelerate into then its just wasted. Running additional disruption like discard / stifle / counters allows you to slow them down which would effectively yield the same result but with alternative uses.

Comparing this list to Adrieng's list in the OP they both run 6 discards spells. The UB version has 14 as opposed to 16 (in the op) draw / tutor / digging spells. It runs stifle over pithing needle so where pithing needle would get destroyed stifle can't. The downside is having mana open to cast it when you need it. It turned the conditional REB's into FOW and spell pierces to have better defense against other combo decks. The downside was that it gave up some utility lands like sejiri steppe to make that happen. Hopefully the counterspells will be able to defend against the same cards as senjiri with a slightly broader application.

With the discard and counterspells, surgical extraction is really nice. It serves multiple uses. Its grave hate, it can seal a victory against a combo deck, or remove all swords to plowshares from opponents deck if you discarded one early and they likely drew another. Additionally, the list below uses 23 blue cards so pitching to FOW isn't an issue. This deck does have a higher player skill requirement so if you are not as familiar with the format or used to playing a blue deck you will probably find yourself at a disadvantage until you learn all the correct plays. The threat of blue alone will stall players giving you time to make land drops and steal victories. Often when a player sees tempo cards like spell pierce and stifle they also think of daze, and while it not a card we are running it can delay them and they may try to play around it even if they have not seen it. I've thought of adding just 1 or two spell snares to see how they do. Although spell snare does not counter cards that we are directly concerned with it is a good tempo card and serves as a HARD counter where spell pierce would otherwise fail. If your meta is more aggro, i would recommend playing some because it hits several threats that can really shorten the game against us such as price of progress, tarmogoyf, hymn to tourach, counterbalance, thalia, and others.

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
3 Expedition Map

4 Vampire Hexmage

3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Wipe Away <--- needs to be something else
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast <---- seems out of place but helps
SB: 2 Not of This World


sorry guys, i have a habit of posting and then making several edits to my original post...

adrieng
02-03-2015, 05:56 PM
Guys, quick and small question, looking for a deck to recommend to a buddy.

How good would this deck (the one in the original post / primer) be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?

Thanks.

Except for storm and reanimator my current list would do quite well ;
delver.decks and stoneblade are esay matchup
Miracle is ok after side if you play the carpetOfFlowers.version with side slaughter games+creeping tar
Reanimator is even I mean UB is even BR is unwinnable.
Storm is hard.

Cutting green for blue is a total non sense ; in green you have one mana vampire tutor that puts into play (crop rotation)
two mana demonic tutor sylvan scrying and two mana sylvan library.

Vampiric tutor and demonic tutor are available in dark depth and that's so unfair !!!

I went back to two ratchet bomb after facing the needle problem when sideboarding against delver.decks (rug tempo/Bug tempo/elves) ;
I do need an answer to needle but on the other side I don't want dead cards such as krosan grip and grudge.

The slaughter games+creeping tar side destroys miracle after side. The deck is right now really well positionned.


4 Mana Confluence
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Duress
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Pithing Needle

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

apple713
02-03-2015, 06:47 PM
Except for storm and reanimator my current list would do quite well ;
delver.decks and stoneblade are esay matchup
Miracle is ok after side if you play the carpetOfFlowers.version with side slaughter games+creeping tar
Reanimator is even I mean UB is even BR is unwinnable.
Storm is hard.

Cutting green for blue is a total non sense ; in green you have one mana vampire tutor that puts into play (crop rotation)
two mana demonic tutor sylvan scrying and two mana sylvan library.

Vampiric tutor and demonic tutor are available in dark depth and that's so unfair !!!


[/Cards]

I agree that green has the perfect tutors. The issue is that it doesn't have good defense and mixing BUG colors into a fetch land manabase simply was not working.

apple713
02-04-2015, 07:53 PM
i saw this on eldrazi forums and thought it might be of use here.

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, I came to the simple realization today, beats Infernal tutor, giving you a Crop rotate-able answer to both Past in Flames (assuming you run bojuka bog) and hellbent Infernal tutor. The card also can dig you out of a rut when your eye of Ugin has been blasted and you need a post-titan way of winning the game. Since you can cast everything in your deck, them also getting a card is less significant.

Some niche plays with it also:
Against Spirit of the Labyrinth, activating it on their turn draws only you a card.
Against Omnishow, you have the ability to either win a lethal clash or draw them out, although this is only realistic with Trinisphere/Sphere effects, a card I am investigating on the main.

Against ANT, if they are resolving an infernal tutor the game is most likely over. ANT decks on average run ~13 instants, which is about ~20% of their deck. The mikoro should work 80% of the time against ANT which would justify the inclusion in my opinion.

adrieng
02-05-2015, 02:20 AM
I don't see myself playing this maindeck ; maybe in side.



Against Spirit of the Labyrinth, activating it on their turn draws only you a card.
Against Omnishow, you have the ability to either win a lethal clash or draw them out, although this is only realistic with Trinisphere/Sphere effects, a card I am investigating on the main.

Against ANT, if they are resolving an infernal tutor the game is most likely over. ANT decks on average run ~13 instants, which is about ~20% of their deck. The mikoro should work 80% of the time against ANT which would justify the inclusion in my opinion.

Against omni it des nothing they have cuning wish for trickbind anyway.

Against ANT I didn't understand very well so they crack led in resp to IT and you put mikoro into the stack so that they don't have hellbent right ?

might be ok but maybe a little too focused.

apple713
02-05-2015, 01:50 PM
I don't see myself playing this maindeck ; maybe in side.


Against omni it des nothing they have cuning wish for trickbind anyway.

Against ANT I didn't understand very well so they crack led in resp to IT and you put mikoro into the stack so that they don't have hellbent right ?

might be ok but maybe a little too focused.

yes thats correct. it is very focused, but with about 80% success rate it seems alright for 1 card slot to improve the worst match for the deck...

Lio
02-06-2015, 08:54 AM
Miracle is ok after side if you play the carpetOfFlowers.version with side slaughter games+creeping tar

The slaughter games+creeping tar side destroys miracle after side. The deck is right now really well positionned.
[/Cards]

How is Creeping Tar Pit winning the Miracles matchup? Never had an opportunity to play this matchup (shame on me) before so I am thinking loudly: First card we need to get rid of is Entreat the Angels as it can kill us quickly, right? Then let's assume we drew another Slaughter Games. What is another target? StP or Terminus? I would say Terminus as Swords to Plowshares give us some free life. On the other hand their 4 StP + Snapcaster Mages > 4 Dark Depths. So you extract Swords to Plowshares to leave them with clunky Terminus? I understand that Terminus'ed Creeping Tar Pit goes back to the library to be searched again. And why is Carpet of Flowers so important in this particular matchup? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of CArpet of Flowers :).

adrieng
02-06-2015, 09:24 AM
How is Creeping Tar Pit winning the Miracles matchup? Never had an opportunity to play this matchup (shame on me) before so I am thinking loudly: First card we need to get rid of is Entreat the Angels as it can kill us quickly, right? Then let's assume we drew another Slaughter Games. What is another target? StP or Terminus? I would say Terminus as Swords to Plowshares give us some free life. On the other hand their 4 StP + Snapcaster Mages > 4 Dark Depths. So you extract Swords to Plowshares to leave them with clunky Terminus? I understand that Terminus'ed Creeping Tar Pit goes back to the library to be searched again. And why is Carpet of Flowers so important in this particular matchup? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of CArpet of Flowers :).

So first you never attack with creeping tar while you don't have a copy with thespian's stage ;
After extracting entreat of angels second target is sword ; you just fetch tar COPY IT with stage make 4 copy and it can kill jace and him all days.

Carpet of flower is not really important in the miracle matchup ; it is important to have not dead slaughter games after side versus storm and showAndTells. Against these decks without flowers slaughter games would be too slow while here you can have turn 2 slaughter games.
I have also been prefering carpetOfFlowers over pyroblast in the main versus tempo.decks ;

Tar is also particularly good in the stoneblade matchup ; when you can easily control the board with grudge/grip/maze/deluge/clasme and kill him with tar eventually if darkDepth was surgical.extracted. Never forget to have a backup copy with stage.

komondor
02-06-2015, 12:15 PM
here is my latest list :



4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
2 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Carpet of Flowers

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games


So I played basically this last night and 4-0'd. I don't have a Top and only 2 Carpet of Flowers and my board was quite different. I played Stoneblade, Omnitell, BUG delver, and I think it was another stoneblade.

Sideboarding has been a decent challenge with this deck and with my newness to Legacy. What are you bringing in and taking out in the main matchups? Most of my sideboarding has been minus a couple sylvan libraries/scryings, needles, mazes/steppe, and sometimes discard.

adrieng
02-06-2015, 12:27 PM
So I played basically this last night and 4-0'd. I don't have a Top and only 2 Carpet of Flowers and my board was quite different. I played Stoneblade, Omnitell, BUG delver, and I think it was another stoneblade.

Sideboarding has been a decent challenge with this deck and with my newness to Legacy. What are you bringing in and taking out in the main matchups? Most of my sideboarding has been minus a couple sylvan libraries/scryings, needles, mazes/steppe, and sometimes discard.

Good news ! There is a sideboard guide in the primer the list is quite the same except carpet in the reb slots and slaughter games in side ; sideboarding strategy doesn't change much. You just bring slaughter games for miracle/ant/showTell/ maybeATwOffForStoneblade.

Yeah I often cut discard/libraryVsAgressiveDecks/sejiri/Scrying/Carpet/OneOrTwoMaze/needle

apple713
02-09-2015, 08:11 AM
Good news ! There is a sideboard guide in the primer the list is quite the same except carpet in the reb slots and slaughter games in side ; sideboarding strategy doesn't change much. You just bring slaughter games for miracle/ant/showTell/ maybeATwOffForStoneblade.

Yeah I often cut discard/libraryVsAgressiveDecks/sejiri/Scrying/Carpet/OneOrTwoMaze/needle

I started testing this deck on MTGO and I must say that Slaughter games is exactly what this deck needed. I really like it ALOT. Since there are such limited threats against this deck it does a really good job. I have even considered running -1 inquisition or duress and having a 2/2 split main deck of carpet and slaughter games. I haven't tested enough really to start thinking with that yet but every time i've drawn it i've been very happy. I played several games against miracles and a few against blade decks. Although it can be discarded, the fact that it's uncountable and works perfectly with the manabase is a really big plus. Slaughter games really helped the miracles matchup and now it seems much better. Not sure creeping tar pit is necessary but as a 1 of it doesn't really hurt either.

I think the original reason we never visitied slaughter games or cranial extraction earlier in our testing was because of its High CMC. against decks like miracles, its fine. Against S&T and omni, not so much. Really only testing will show us.

komondor
02-09-2015, 05:46 PM
I started testing this deck on MTGO and I must say that Slaughter games is exactly what this deck needed. I really like it ALOT. Since there are such limited threats against this deck it does a really good job. I have even considered running -1 inquisition or duress and having a 2/2 split main deck of carpet and slaughter games. I haven't tested enough really to start thinking with that yet but every time i've drawn it i've been very happy. I played several games against miracles and a few against blade decks. Although it can be discarded, the fact that it's uncountable and works perfectly with the manabase is a really big plus. Slaughter games really helped the miracles matchup and now it seems much better. Not sure creeping tar pit is necessary but as a 1 of it doesn't really hurt either.

I think the original reason we never visitied slaughter games or cranial extraction earlier in our testing was because of its High CMC. against decks like miracles, its fine. Against S&T and omni, not so much. Really only testing will show us.

Awesome! I picked up a top so I'm closer to the most recently posted RGB deck since now I'm just down 1 Carpet of Flowers. I actually looked at picking up the deck on mtgo but depths are too expensive for me to justify spending on a non-existent card. I'll be testing on Thursday again though. People are starting to sideboard more anti-Marit Lage stuff which is making it more interesting.

What is your choice order against Miracles? Stp then Terminus or vice versa? I was thinking at least we have some defense(steppe) against STP but nothing against Terminus.

Edit: So I'm an idiot. Was able to trade some of the stuff I've received from drafting and have all but the 4 mana confluence, 2 maze, 1 gemstone, and 2 toxic deluges. Can't believe Deluges are 25 tickets each! crazy.

apple713
02-10-2015, 12:23 AM
Awesome! I picked up a top so I'm closer to the most recently posted RGB deck since now I'm just down 1 Carpet of Flowers. I actually looked at picking up the deck on mtgo but depths are too expensive for me to justify spending on a non-existent card. I'll be testing on Thursday again though. People are starting to sideboard more anti-Marit Lage stuff which is making it more interesting.

What is your choice order against Miracles? Stp then Terminus or vice versa? I was thinking at least we have some defense(steppe) against STP but nothing against Terminus.

Edit: So I'm an idiot. Was able to trade some of the stuff I've received from drafting and have all but the 4 mana confluence, 2 maze, 1 gemstone, and 2 toxic deluges. Can't believe Deluges are 25 tickets each! crazy.

ya my version is somewhat budget at the moment because i was skeptical about whether or not i would enjoy playing online. I opted for 2x pyroclasm instead of 2x deluge, and I started with city of brass 1.5 instead of mana confluence 13 each. i also don't have 2x maze of ith which are 17 each. So far so good but since I do like playing online i will buy the cards when i get a chance. Without the aforementioned it cost me like $170 which is unbelievably low for a MTGO legacy deck that is very good.

komondor
02-10-2015, 07:40 PM
ya my version is somewhat budget at the moment because i was skeptical about whether or not i would enjoy playing online. I opted for 2x pyroclasm instead of 2x deluge, and I started with city of brass 1.5 instead of mana confluence 13 each. i also don't have 2x maze of ith which are 17 each. So far so good but since I do like playing online i will buy the cards when i get a chance. Without the aforementioned it cost me like $170 which is unbelievably low for a MTGO legacy deck that is very good.

I sucked it up and completed almost everything and am running it in a daily right now. Won the first round easily against stoneblade. Maindeck I have Cities instead of Mana Confluences and side I have 2 pyroclasm instead of deluge.

apple713
02-10-2015, 09:45 PM
I sucked it up and completed almost everything and am running it in a daily right now. Won the first round easily against stoneblade. Maindeck I have Cities instead of Mana Confluences and side I have 2 pyroclasm instead of deluge.

hit me up sometime Maverick713

whats your username?