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DemolitionColorScheme
11-21-2014, 07:12 AM
At GPNJ, Eli Kassis placed 14th with his Grixis Control list. Sadly, he wasn't featured on camera, but Cedric and co have mentioned him and his deck a few times on stream that afterwards it got me intrigued enough to assemble it and test it out.

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His GPNJ list at the time was this:
(SCG : Legacy Decks That Fight The Good Fight (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29767_Legacy-Decks-That-Fight-The-Good-Fight.html?fb_action_ids=10152646617898071&fb_action_types=og.comments))

LANDS [17]:
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

CREATURES [8]:
1 Baleful Strix
1 Notion Thief
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Dack Fayden

INSTANTS [15]:
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast

SORCERIES [17]:
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sudden Demise

ARTIFACTS [1]:
1 Nihil Spellbomb

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Zuran Orb
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Dread of Night
1 Electrickery
2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Recoil
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood

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His updated list at the time is this (changes I made myself as well, coincidentally):
(Mythic Games : A Legacy Grand Prix Report by Eli Kassis (http://mythicgameselmira.tumblr.com/post/103058060593/a-legacy-grand-prix-report))

LANDS [17]:
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

CREATURES [8]:
1 Baleful Strix
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Dack Fayden

INSTANTS [15]:
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast

SORCERIES [18]:
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Forked Bolt
1 Preordain

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sudden Demise
1 Massacre
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Recoil
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood

CHANGES MAIN:
-1 Notion Thief, -1 Nihil Spellbomb, -1 Sudden Demise
+1 True-Name Nemesis, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Preordain

SIDEBOARD CHANGES:
-1 Dread of Night, -1 Electrickery, -1 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Massacre, +1 Sudden Demise, +1 Nihil Spellbomb

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At first glance, I can thoroughly understand people wondering how this deck even wins matches. It seems to lack real threats and at first glance, Dack Fayden just looks too cute. I (and I presume Eli as well) think Dack has found a new home with the printing of Treasure Cruise. I've never played a (fair) Legacy deck that is able to generate this much card advantage; either be it through Dack's looting ability or Snapcaster, Baleful Strix, the cantrips and Probes and off-setting the balance with Probe + Cabal Therapy (+ Young Pyromancer) even further is quite fun.

Dack's ultimate (-6) makes Pyroblasts, Hydroblasts, Lightning Bolts and Forked Bolts an absolute nightmare. Being able to Forked Bolt 2 Goyfs and adding them to your board is such a huge swing there's no coming back from that. The -2 (stealing an artifact) is absolutely relevant in the current meta, with Stoneblade builds making a rise again. Same goes for Cabal Therapy. Dack also enables multiple Cruises quite quickly and if you've played against the Cruise decks, you know the one who resolves one first often takes the lead.

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My current list is this:
LANDS [17]:
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

CREATURES [9]:
1 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Dack Fayden

INSTANTS [15]:
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast

SORCERIES [17]:
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Forked Bolt

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sudden Demise
1 Massacre
2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood

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Optional choices:
Sudden Shock might be good in the current SFM / YP meta. I personally really like the Innocent Blood as well and might even up that number with all the Pyroblasts and Hydroblasts being flung around, this black 1 mana spell might really be excellent. We also don't have have an easy way of removing a TNN from the field, the downside is that YP is a card and makes Innocent Blood and Liliana a lot less valuable.

Options are to up the number of Dack's to 3 or maybe even adding 1 Jace or Liliana (she is still good vs non-YP boards).
Something I've been considering is a Punishing Fire engine, but that would require quite some changes.

Thoughts?

JosephK
11-21-2014, 10:20 AM
Thank you for your post, I was quite surprised there hasn't been one yet. I love the list and I've been testing it since it was revealed.

There are some points I'd like to talk about :

MD :
I totally agree with -1 Thief +1 Tnn in the main ; thief is good vs bug control but less potent against red or white strat. Given the metagame, it's a choice I like.
Otherwise I find the list quite perfect. I just regret not having Jace, but no room for him :(.
I like sudden demise as a protection sweeper in the main. If you want a second forked, why not play jitte instead ?
I also prefer spellbomb to preordain in the metagame. It allows to win the cruise control mirror more easily.

SB:
I d like to question :
. Null Rod : good against Equipments, Top, MUD. Against the first, we have dack +cabal ; against the second, we have needle (and pyroblast - I would play a 4th), against the third, smash (i would play a second one or even hurkyl's recall here).
. Zuran orb : I just don't like it (jitte instead ? we already have 2 blue blast)
. Innocent blood : this is maybe here against big threats, but pyromancer + tnn do already the job :)
. Cage : I hate having to do choices that involve cage + snap. But it's hard to find another decent piece of gy hate (another spellbomb ?)
. Recoil : I prefer Echoing truth, which is more polyvalent

This is the sb I've been playing with :
1 Surgical
1 Spellbomb
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Needle
1 Perish
1 Massacre
1 Echoing truth
1 Tsabo s web
1 Smash
1 Envelop
1 Jitte
1 meta slot

Otherwise, Tsabo s web is awesome, Massacre > Dread of night because it deals with tnn and elves and thank you again for this wonderful list. We re playing Vintage.

(I laughed when I read "Being able to Forked Bolt 2 Goyfs and adding them to your board is such a huge swing there's no coming back from that" - you can also steal 2 griselbrand^^)

DemolitionColorScheme
11-22-2014, 07:21 AM
Thank you for your post, I was quite surprised there hasn't been one yet. I love the list and I've been testing it since it was revealed.
Yeah, I was surprised as well! I talked to Eli a bit as well and it just sparked the idea to create a thread on The Source.


There are some points I'd like to talk about :

MD :
I totally agree with -1 Thief +1 Tnn in the main ; thief is good vs bug control but less potent against red or white strat. Given the metagame, it's a choice I like.
Otherwise I find the list quite perfect. I just regret not having Jace, but no room for him :(.
I like sudden demise as a protection sweeper in the main. If you want a second forked, why not play jitte instead ?
I also prefer spellbomb to preordain in the metagame. It allows to win the cruise control mirror more easily.
- The TNN is a good swap, yeah. Like Baleful Strix, it's a good wall to protect Dack. Once Dack hits his ultimate, the game is virtually won (at least vs fair decks).
- Sudden Demise is good, absolutely, but it's quite mana intensive, just like Jitte. Jitte is great as well, but Forked Bolt enables Cruises better and with Dack's ulti, it's a superb tool. Having another tool to remove turn 1 x/1 to 2 creatures is good as well.
- Spellbomb is great and I'm still not sure about this slot. I feel this is a flex slot; it can either be another counter, another Dack, something completely different or another threat like an extra TNN.


SB:
I d like to question :
. Null Rod : good against Equipments, Top, MUD. Against the first, we have dack +cabal ; against the second, we have needle (and pyroblast - I would play a 4th), against the third, smash (i would play a second one or even hurkyl's recall here).
Null Rod also stops LEDs, Petals and Aether Vial. The thing is, I don't feel it's wrong to have another broad answer for these things, since we can't solely just count on Dack and Therapies.

. Zuran orb : I just don't like it (jitte instead ? we already have 2 blue blast)
I know it looks weird, but if fuels late game Cruises and makes the Burn and UR Delver matchups a whole let better. It being 0 mana is also rather handy.

. Innocent blood : this is maybe here against big threats, but pyromancer + tnn do already the job :)
Innocent Blood does work well in a such a threat-light deck. This is not a build that wants to slam YP on turn two without any back up, so Blood does help to remove threats.

. Cage : I hate having to do choices that involve cage + snap. But it's hard to find another decent piece of gy hate (another spellbomb ?)
I get that, it's a slight non-bo, but with only 2 SCM, it's fine and it hits quite some stuff in the Elves, Dredge and ANT matchups.

. Recoil : I prefer Echoing truth, which is more polyvalent
I don't care for Recoil much myself as well. Echoing Truth might be fine, but I've been even thinking of swapping 1 Volcanic for 1 Tropical and adding 1 Abrupt Decay (or Krosan Grip) and 1 Ancient Grudge (instead of Smash) to the SB. I don't see this deck getting rid of Counterbalance that well, especially when there's a Top next to it (you can still target it with Pyro and Hydroblast once Dack hits his ulti, but that's about it).


This is the sb I've been playing with :
1 Surgical
1 Spellbomb
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Needle
1 Perish
1 Massacre
1 Echoing truth
1 Tsabo s web
1 Smash
1 Envelop
1 Jitte
1 meta slot

Otherwise, Tsabo s web is awesome, Massacre > Dread of night because it deals with tnn and elves and thank you again for this wonderful list. We re playing Vintage.
That looks good, yeah. I love Jitte, but it just being a random one-off in the side just doesn't really feel right to me, though it might be, since it's fantastic once it connects.


(I laughed when I read "Being able to Forked Bolt 2 Goyfs and adding them to your board is such a huge swing there's no coming back from that" - you can also steal 2 griselbrand^^)
Technically not, since Griselbrand is Legendary ... ;) Besides, them being able to resolve GB early on pretty much spells game over, since Dack won't have enough time to tick up.

anwei
11-26-2014, 11:19 PM
I've been thinking through a more aggressive Grixis deck, and wondering if I should pick up Dacks and try this, but: what about Darkblast in that 2nd Forked Bolt slot? Recurring removal on X/1 and dredge 3 both seem really solid right now, for fueling delve or Dack.

DemolitionColorScheme
11-27-2014, 05:47 AM
I've been thinking through a more aggressive Grixis deck, and wondering if I should pick up Dacks and try this, but: what about Darkblast in that 2nd Forked Bolt slot? Recurring removal on X/1 and dredge 3 both seem really solid right now, for fueling delve or Dack.
Darkblast might be pretty handy, yeah. It's a bit mana intensive, though, but the recurring factor might be excellent. It's sometimes used in Team America as well.

Chaam
12-01-2014, 09:55 AM
I may give this deck a whirl. I was thinking of playing something like this:

Creatures (5)
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sorceries (22)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Forked Bolt
4 Treasure Cruise

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Dack Fayden

Lands (16)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Forked Bolt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Dread of Night
1 Innocent Blood



Thoughts?

FoolofaTook
12-01-2014, 10:12 AM
@Chaam

That's kind of threat lite which might be an issue in this meta where the early threats come so quick and thick.

I'm looking at Grixis also with about 9 creatures and 3 planeswalkers as the threat base. Not sure exactly how to go about it. At the moment for me the choices are aggro control with Delvers + Young Pyromancers plus a bigger finisher or more control centric like the original list with Young Pyromancers, Snapcaster Mages and Baleful Strix.

The synergy between YP and Cabal Therapy is really interesting in this meta as are the REB/Pyroblasts main.

Not sure about Treasure Cruise in the list. It's really powerful but I'm in a meta that is defined by Show and Tell, Miracles, various Blade builds and Infect and I need more real counters early on. This is one of the reasons I'm looking at Delver. I'm going to have to play a full set of Daze to reliably get to to turn 4.

B88
12-03-2014, 03:49 AM
hi there!
i would post here my list of Grixis control. is not the same list that there is above, but, it's a control deck with the same colours. the list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Innocent Blood
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Treasure Cruise
3 Ponder
3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Scalding tarn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell

that version is similar of Lam Phan deck but i add the third colour anche delete the denial package, because i think that now with cruise is very hard win in this way.
we have 5 draw engine: 3standstill and 2cruise.
also we have 8 remuval with cc1, that there are perfect with standstill. the deck works well in testing, but i'm afraid that against deck like burn, or similar, is goig to be hard win. about that i thoght that could be a good choice counterbalance + sensei lock. i would cut 3ponders and 2cruise and use these slots.
i played against a mirror match (the gp list) but i won easy....we have many remuvals and snare takes care of YP.

the side is a working progress process!

anyway any thoughts? advice?

Philipp2293
12-03-2014, 04:25 AM
@Burn MU: I think in Grixis your best bet might be to race (assuming you bring in something like blue blasts/flusterstorms/Clique) by switching from a control deck to a counterburn deck. If you a very committed to have something that will gain you life, maybe you want a small Trinket Mage package for Basilisk Collar (other targets: EE, which you have anyway and Top, maybe sth like Needle)

Alltogether, I think your post might have been better in the UR Landstill thread, since it's a lot closer to Lam Phan/Shockwave's Deck than to Kassis' Deck.

@Grixis Control: I'm currently not happy with the Sudden Demise slot in the SB, anybody came up with something better? Also, since Miracles is heavily played in my meta, I switched the Preordain for a Dimir Charm, since I mostly loose to a mid-size Entreat in this MU. Countering a Terminus is a bonus, as well as being another hardcounter for Treasure Cruise as well as killing many things, especially in the (pseudo)mirror.

DemolitionColorScheme
12-03-2014, 06:44 AM
@Grixis Control: I'm currently not happy with the Sudden Demise slot in the SB, anybody came up with something better? Also, since Miracles is heavily played in my meta, I switched the Preordain for a Dimir Charm, since I mostly loose to a mid-size Entreat in this MU. Countering a Terminus is a bonus, as well as being another hardcounter for Treasure Cruise as well as killing many things, especially in the (pseudo)mirror.
What is it that makes Sudden Demise not good enough for you? Some options could be; Toxic Deluge, Fire Covenant or Electrickery. Dimir Charm is good, yeah. I could see it being justified as a maindeck slot, though I like to keep the black splash to a minimum. We can operate well enough with only an Island and a couple of Volcanics. Even the Cabal Therapies can be activated by Dack's looting ability when you have a creature out (or even better, a YP).

Philipp2293
12-03-2014, 07:40 AM
It seems a bit too manaintensive for what it does - the other options you listed are either more mana efficient or more flexible.

Did you play any tournaments with your list lately?

DemolitionColorScheme
12-03-2014, 10:53 AM
It seems a bit too manaintensive for what it does - the other options you listed are either more mana efficient or more flexible.

Did you play any tournaments with your list lately?
It's a board wipe. All of them are. If you can come up with better alternatives, let me know.

Just a small one with a few people, which you can't really call a tournament. I haven't brought it to the field yet.

Lightless
12-04-2014, 07:56 AM
Tournamentreport 30.11.2014 Strasbourg

Decklist


4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Young Pyromancer
1 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell

2 Dack Fayden

//Sideboard
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Hey I went to Strasbourg to play in the Mainevent but finished with a 3/3 drop.
I was pretty annoyed and wanted to do some stuff for university on sunday,
but since we had to leave the hotel early, I decided to play in the legacy-side-event. A pretty good decision :tongue:

Round 1 Vs 12-Post

The whole match was unexciting. He didn't draw his important cards and I got him with young pyromancer.

Boarding
In: Null-Rod, Pithing Needle, 2 Pyroblast
Out: 2 Forked Bolt, 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Lightning Bolt

1-0

Round 2 Vs Jund-Lands

Same as the first match, but this time it was me who got beaten to a pulp. Tabernacle + 2 Wasteland + Exploration + Loam + Smallpox.... yeah gg

Boarding
In: Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 2 Pyroblast

1-1

Round 3 Vs BUG-Delver

Dack Fayden id a pretty good job at filtering my hand in both matches, wich led to a significant avantage in the long run.
My opponent was suprised when i flashbacked delved a treasure cruise with Snapcaster :wink: "Can he do that?" he asked a judge standing nearby. Oh yes I can :cool:

Boarding
In: 2 Pyroblast, Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb, Ghastly Demise
Out: 4 Force of Will, 1 Counterspell

2-1

Round 4 Vs Naya-Zoo

1st Game I play Basic Island, Ponder... Brainstorm, Fetchland ... He plays 3rd turn Green Sun's for Gaddok Teeg and waits for my concession
"Nope I'm not storm." :tongue:
True Name Nemesis wins against his Punishing Fire Package

2nd Game he keeps an awkward hand "2 Lands, Bolt, Swords, Red Elemental Blast, Eternal Witness, Ajani Vengeant."
stripping him with Cabal Therapy he never draws a Land again I win.

Boarding
In: Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb, Ghastly Demise, Massacre, Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Force of Will, 2 Pyroblast

3-1

Round 5 Vs UWR-Stoneblade

1st Game he mulligans to 4 without a Land, pretty easy win
2nd Game he has Jitte on Hand and resolves a Stoneforge, I resolve Dack Fayden and have a back up Smash to smithereens. He has no chance.

Boarding
In: 2 Pyroblast, 2 Smash to Smithereens, Pithing Needle, 2 Hydroblast
Out: 4 Force of Will, 1 Counterspell, 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Cabal Therapy

Round 6 Vs ???

Some Math:

He is 3-1-1...
Prices are 4-1-1 150 Bom Points, 5-1-0 300 Bom Points
He concedes, we split.

5-1

6th Place

I pretty much like how the deck plays out. The Game Loss agaist Lands was pretty obvious and I think BloodMoon in the Sideboard would help fix this.
I don't think that more Gravehate or anything along that line could be usefull enough to make this matchup much better.

Thanks for reading :wink:

DemolitionColorScheme
12-04-2014, 08:24 AM
Thanks for that write-up! Good read! Snapping back a Cruise is dirty, I agree and I've had some people ask me if that's even possible; and yes, it is. And yes ... it's filthy, haha.
In the 12-post match-up, I think I wouldn't have boarded out the Cabal Therapy. Maybe just one Prope instead. Could you explain your reasoning for doing so?

Lightless
12-04-2014, 09:00 AM
To be honest I never played against 12-Post before. I felt like if his main cards are lands and he floats the rest most times on Top with a sensei's,
I never get to hit the important cards with a therapy anyway so yeah thats why i boarded it out but maybe I was wrong there.

But I would never cut a Probe, maybe another Bolt, cause it cannot hit any of the relevant creatures anyway.

DemolitionColorScheme
12-04-2014, 09:07 AM
To be honest I never played against 12-Post before. I felt like if his main cards are lands and he floats the rest most times on Top with a sensei's,
I never get to hit the important cards with a therapy anyway so yeah thats why i boarded it out but maybe I was wrong there.

But I would never cut a Probe, maybe another Bolt, cause it cannot hit any of the relevant creatures anyway.
It's hard, yeah. Probe can still give you info and is a cantrip. Bolt does give some extra clock, because when his engine gets rolling, it's hard to win and it's good to just Snap a Bolt back and get that game over with as quickly as possible (seeing as the deck is pretty threat-light).

It depends on the version. With the mono Green versions, you'd obviously cut the Pyroblasts, but with the more common UG version, Pyroblasts are great to counter S&T or a Brainstorm. It's still really good to strip their hand of their Giant or GSZ or even Crop Rotation, though.

Philipp2293
12-04-2014, 09:11 AM
Why not board out the Strix? Concerns about blue count for fow and body count for Therapy? I can't see many other reasons.....

Lightless
12-04-2014, 09:20 AM
Strix can still block Emrakul or Primeval Titan and kill them in a fight.

Philipp2293
12-04-2014, 09:57 AM
I guess it can, but when Primeval Titan attacks the Post player has gotten 2 Triggers out of it, so the damage is done by then. Same with Emrakul and annihilator, but I think this is the smaller problem, since you might just spam enough tokens to live through one or two annihilator triggers. Also, at the point Emrakul is attacking, Post might have gone infinite already.

Lightless
12-04-2014, 10:16 AM
Like I mentioned in my post I never played against 12 Post before and so I can only argue on the base what did seem right for me at that moment.
Coming up with a boarding plan from a close to 0 Information point was not that easy. I didn't even know that he plays Show an Tell.
Maybe i should have boarde in ghastly Demise to kill Primes.
I definetly should have boarded in Smashs for the Candelabras and his trinket mage package.

But with more experience I will get a better felling for what I should do.

FoolofaTook
12-04-2014, 10:54 AM
Strix can still block Emrakul or Primeval Titan and kill them in a fight.

How often do you win through an Emrakul attack? The Annihilator 6 thing is more than enough to do me 95% of the time, probably more like 99.5% of the time although I'll admit I don't have a sample size and probably never will that would confirm that.

On another note, has anybody tried a couple of Pack Rat in the build? They grow really fast in the mid-game. Nice that somebody other than green got a creature where summoning sick isn't particularly important for what it does well.

Philipp2293
12-04-2014, 11:25 AM
Like I mentioned in my post I never played against 12 Post before and so I can only argue on the base what did seem right for me at that moment.
Coming up with a boarding plan from a close to 0 Information point was not that easy. I didn't even know that he plays Show an Tell.
Maybe i should have boarde in ghastly Demise to kill Primes.
I definetly should have boarded in Smashs for the Candelabras and his trinket mage package.

But with more experience I will get a better felling for what I should do.

First thing, I want to apologize if the tone of my post came across as too harsh, when posting from work I keep things short and simple, which affects the tone in a negative way sometimes.

That aside, thank you for the report, much appreciated. Oh, and I wouldn't SB in the Demise vs Post, since it's neither something that clocks your oponent nor actual disruption. He possible shrugs it off when you demised his Primetime since he still got the way better end of the deal.

starfox444
12-08-2014, 02:40 AM
This is definitely a dumb question; but for the life of me I can not figure out what Tsabo's Web is for. Any help?

Quasim0ff
12-08-2014, 03:01 AM
This is definitely a dumb question; but for the life of me I can not figure out what Tsabo's Web is for. Any help?

Wateland, Rishidan Port?

Lightless
12-08-2014, 04:44 AM
Tsabo's Web is good agains Port and Thespian Stage, it can also cripple a Karakas and so on. But to be honest, against Wasteland it does close to nothing, most times Wasteland is used the Turn it is played anyway.

That's actually them main reason I cutted it right away.

starfox444
12-08-2014, 06:37 AM
My intuition is that fighting a mana denial strategy by reaching 2 mana is a dumb way to go about it. If you have access to 2 mana why not play a threat to get on board? Mana denial often puts the person doing it at parity because of how those cards mechanically work (waste, port); that doesn't work when you are ahead on board. Alternatively, why not spend your cantrips to find more land?

Either of those options sounds better to me than casting Tsabo's Web. With that reasoning, I can't understand when I would want it. Thespian's stage needs to be activated once, pyromancer and planeswalkers ignore maze of ith. If we want a safe manabase; why not an extra basic land? If we want to nullify opposing lands, we can include wasteland ourselves. It seems to have been a staple of the sideboard for a while, hopefully someone can explain the reasoning behind the inclusion of the card, maybe my previous thoughts are wrong.

Lightless
12-08-2014, 02:31 PM
Like I stated in my tournamentreport I was thinking about adding a 2nd basic and playing Bloodmoon in the Sideboard. Lands is a pretty hard matchup and them other means we have fighting it (Gravehate etc.) don't work well withe the slow clock that we present at some times.
Bloodmoon is a nice card that in addition to the gravehate gives us more play against a deck like lands.

hobart
12-08-2014, 03:11 PM
I 3-0'd a small tourney at my local yesterday with this:

4x Young Pyromancer
2x Baleful Strix
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Notion Thief

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of will
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Forked Bolt
4x Treasure Cruise
1x Pyroblast
1x Counterspell
1x Nihil Spellbomb

2x Dack Fayden
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Volcanic Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Island

Sideboard:

2x Pyroblast
2x Sudden Demise
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Duress

vs the new Jeskai Ascendancy combo deck with fatestitcher: 2-0
This deck seemed really bad to me. My game one draw was terrible, but my opponent durdled so long that eventually I resolved some Cruises, and true name got me there with some burn to finish. Game 2 had a decent draw I was in control the whole (long) game.

vs zoo: 2-0
Game 1 drew the TNN and he had a slow hand, it was really bad for him. Game 2 was a blowout with an unexpected Sudden demise naming green which wrathed him and generated another token for my YP! (love this card)

vs reanimator: 2-1
Game 1 on the play he had turn 2 Gris with no relevant interaction from me. Game 2 I blind therapy name brainstorm and I hit the only gas in his opener. I start going nuts with YP shortly after. Game 3 he plays fetch go. I probe to see he has careful study and reanimate with daze backup. I've got several turn 1 play options, but I decide the safest one is to stick my Grafdigger's Cage with force backup through his daze to negate his reanimate and ensure that the careful study cannot even be card parity for him. The resolved cage buys me enough time to secure the win with YPs and TCs.

This deck is a blast and pretty decent too. Seems so soft to a number of things, namely -1/-1 effects, Price of Progress, Counterbalance, Chalice. Thankfully, I saw none of that yesterday and I will keep playing this deck. The Notion Thief is not good enough, and it should probably be another TNN. That being said, it's too much fun to drop just yet. Before this deck became a thing I had been trying different ways to utilize the 3 way synergy between Gitaxian Probe - Young Pyromancer - Cabal Therapy. I had even been testing this in the Loam Dack 4c shell for a few weeks. Dropping the green to streamline into Grixis felt right and it's definitely better.

JosephK
12-08-2014, 06:44 PM
Tsabo s web is there for Karakas, mainly, but also Rishadan port, Maze of Ith and every manland. Death and taxes is not an easy MU, and Tsabo's web can punish them quite well (every non basics they play won't untap - including waste and canopy) while stopping their karakas vial thing.
Against lands, it's quite useful when you face Tabernacle + Maze.
It's hard to find a decent piece of disruption towards lands : playing more basics (blood moon, etc) or dedicated spells (sowing salt) seem all inferior to the current answer we have (Tsabo s web).

Pastorofmuppets
12-08-2014, 11:00 PM
Pyro/Therapy seems like it could be brutal in some MUs. Has anyone tested Inquisition/Thoughtseize?

apple713
12-09-2014, 12:34 AM
Tsabo s web is there for Karakas, mainly, but also Rishadan port, Maze of Ith and every manland. Death and taxes is not an easy MU, and Tsabo's web can punish them quite well (every non basics they play won't untap - including waste and canopy) while stopping their karakas vial thing.
Against lands, it's quite useful when you face Tabernacle + Maze.
It's hard to find a decent piece of disruption towards lands : playing more basics (blood moon, etc) or dedicated spells (sowing salt) seem all inferior to the current answer we have (Tsabo s web).

winter orb maybe?

starfox444
12-09-2014, 05:37 AM
Tsabo s web is there for Karakas, mainly, but also Rishadan port, Maze of Ith and every manland. Death and taxes is not an easy MU, and Tsabo's web can punish them quite well (every non basics they play won't untap - including waste and canopy) while stopping their karakas vial thing.
Against lands, it's quite useful when you face Tabernacle + Maze.
It's hard to find a decent piece of disruption towards lands : playing more basics (blood moon, etc) or dedicated spells (sowing salt) seem all inferior to the current answer we have (Tsabo s web).

Eh it's not great but I guess it works...I think it would be better to overhaul the sideboard but I'd rather play more with current SB and get a better feel for it first so I won't make any more suggestions here.

The new sideboard has massacre for D&T which is nice. Not sure how to beat lands, I'm pretty ok with it just being a bad matchup since I think it takes like a good 3-4 slots to fix up that matchup since all our removal is crap in grixis against marit lage and we don't have access to loam to keep the lands coming out.

Firefight
12-10-2014, 03:39 PM
Is Ashiok something to be considered in this deck?

What about stiffle / wasteland package?

I'm also testing Fire Convenant and DTT in this deck, feels more controlish

FoolofaTook
12-10-2014, 03:55 PM
Tsabo's Web is good agains Port and Thespian Stage, it can also cripple a Karakas and so on. But to be honest, against Wasteland it does close to nothing, most times Wasteland is used the Turn it is played anyway.

That's actually them main reason I cutted it right away.

Tsabo's Web doesn't stop Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage though, right? They tap the stage to make it DD and then they get the Marit Lage token anyway?

Meekrab
12-11-2014, 06:12 PM
Tsabo's Web doesn't stop Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage though, right? They tap the stage to make it DD and then they get the Marit Lage token anyway?
Sure, but if they turn the Stage into a Taiga or something and you get the Web into play while it's tapped it does.

Obviously they can Wasteland their own Stage and then Loam it back but it anyway inconveniences them a bit.

Meekrab
12-12-2014, 11:40 PM
I just lost to a KTK draft deck playing Eli's list with a Notion Thief instead of 3/1 Progenitus. >_>

Deimos
12-14-2014, 03:07 AM
This is the main deck config I have been playing around, still not 100% sure about the mana base may need tweeked but I have been pretty happy with the rest of the list.

1 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Pyroclasm
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Dack Fayden

1 Academy Ruins
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

disgustipated
12-14-2014, 06:37 PM
This is the main deck config I have been playing around, still not 100% sure about the mana base may need tweeked but I have been pretty happy with the rest of the list.

1 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Pyroclasm
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Dack Fayden

1 Academy Ruins
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Ashiok seems interesting, but is her +2 good enough against decks without creatures (-X being useless)? As a storm player myself, I can see it being pretty disruptive if I choose not to shuffle off my ponder or hide cards from therapy with my brainstorm - but I'm not sure how often these sequences would pop up. I suppose if the opponent doesn't have creatures, you can pitch her to FoW. I'm interested in hearing your testing results.

I think TNN is a great blocker for the walkers, especially since both of them can get out of bolt range with their +1 and +2. Why run EE? And do EE + strix really warrant Academy Ruins?

Has anyone considered or tested a 1-of Vedalken Shackles in the main or SB? Darkblast also seems a reasonable option for a "control" deck.

Deimos
12-14-2014, 11:59 PM
Ashiok seems interesting, but is her +2 good enough against decks without creatures (-X being useless)? As a storm player myself, I can see it being pretty disruptive if I choose not to shuffle off my ponder or hide cards from therapy with my brainstorm - but I'm not sure how often these sequences would pop up. I suppose if the opponent doesn't have creatures, you can pitch her to FoW. I'm interested in hearing your testing results.

I think TNN is a great blocker for the walkers, especially since both of them can get out of bolt range with their +1 and +2. Why run EE? And do EE + strix really warrant Academy Ruins?

Has anyone considered or tested a 1-of Vedalken Shackles in the main or SB? Darkblast also seems a reasonable option for a "control" deck.

If I'm honest Ashiok is pretty much just in there because I love that card. It should probably just be a TNN and if I was going to a tourney I would probably shift her to the board and play TNN in that spot. I haven't cast her against storm in testing, have pitched to force or just shuffled away to find more relevant spells.

EE answers so many cards that could otherwise be a problem (opponents tnn, goyf, chalice etc), is also just a great way of getting back on track if we fall behind too much. The academy isn't the best g1 but recurring EE is pretty hard for decks like UR to beat and getting back Strix in grindy games is great, but with the combination of a bunch of random artifacts in the board (spellbomb, needle etc) and Dack I think it is worth trying.

Haven't tried but I quite like the idea of Shackles, might give it a test sometime and I agree that darkblast is a pretty reasonable option.

disgustipated
12-15-2014, 08:14 PM
Just some random thoughts..

Smash to Smithereens versus Rakdos Charm?

Fire Covenant versus Sudden Demise and Electrickery?

Sideboard options versus miracles? Pithing Needle for top/jace. I like Engineered Explosives for the match up as well. Recoil can potentially kill Jace / harder to push a Pyroblast through CB. Having Planeswalkers here is really nice, even if they run red blasts (can therapy/counter them - "protect the queen" strategy). Makes me think 1-of Jace might be worth it, or a Keranos, God of Storms perhaps. If the game is going to go long, having a 4cmc+ bomb to close it out quickly is nice.

Vendilion Clique seems decent for allowing a peek at their hand to set up Therapy.
Pyroclasm might be more versatile than Massacre in the SB, but more difficult to resolve through soft counters and can be BEB'd. I'm thinking Elves here.

goblinsplayer
12-15-2014, 10:05 PM
Just some random thoughts..

Smash to Smithereens versus Rakdos Charm?

Fire Covenant versus Sudden Demise and Electrickery?

Sideboard options versus miracles? Pithing Needle for top/jace. I like Engineered Explosives for the match up as well. Recoil can potentially kill Jace / harder to push a Pyroblast through CB. Having Planeswalkers here is really nice, even if they run red blasts (can therapy/counter them - "protect the queen" strategy). Makes me think 1-of Jace might be worth it, or a Keranos, God of Storms perhaps. If the game is going to go long, having a 4cmc+ bomb to close it out quickly is nice.

Vendilion Clique seems decent for allowing a peek at their hand to set up Therapy.
Pyroclasm might be more versatile than Massacre in the SB, but more difficult to resolve through soft counters and can be BEB'd. I'm thinking Elves here.

Also massacre kills TNN, which is kind of big.

JosephK
12-16-2014, 10:18 AM
As my testing goes :

. Engineered Explosives is not very good in the deck : it s too mana intensive for CB (you need 5 or 3 + 2 turns) + you don't want to set it on 2 (strix pyromancer snap). EE can't deal with Chalice + Trini. For now I just rely on 4 Force 4 Pyroblast Cabal Needle Counterspell Bounce for CB. Echoing truth will be my answer to a resolved Entreat (or even demise for G1).
The best card vs Miracle is Pyroblast, so if you absolutely want to win this MU, play 3 in your sb (5 total postboard^^). As long as CB doesn't hit the table, we are the control in the mu.

. Sudden demise >> Electrickery and Fire covenant. The way you should play the deck makes demise superior to Electrickery in most of the cases. The life loss matters for Fire covenant (you end up casting 2-3 probes and you may fetch 3-4 times in a normal game), which is not very efficient at clearing a yp/elves board.

. I'm testing Shattering spree that can unlock a chalice + trinisphere board (for 3) -Or Meltdown but it desroys Jitte. But what i'm really looking for is an answer to choke (Echoing truth is the one for now). I may give swan song a try, even if I know it doesn't fit in the deck. Vendilion Clique can be an option here.

. I need further testing for Massacre (do we really need to deal with tnn ? - still 4 pyroblast to answer it on the stack). Pyroclasm is too narrow if you play demise MD. I suggest Perish, that will be more and more useful in my opinion.

. I didn't test Winter Orb, it's maybe better than Tsabo s web vs lands and Cloudpost, but I don't see another MU where it s useful. I should give it a try though, since Tsabo s web main use is D1T. Thanks for the idea !

For those interested, I have sidetables for various MUs. Just PM me if you want to discuss them.

EDIT : For the Lands/Dark depth Combo/Cloudpost MUs, Maybe 2 blood moon (with 1 basic island MD) SB is playable. Cabal into blood moon looks game-wining.

grimskies
12-21-2014, 03:56 AM
Kevin Jones took this deck to SCG PC, unfortunately didn't have an opportunity to play it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3096_deck_tech_grixis_control_with_.html

JosephK
12-21-2014, 05:26 PM
The SB Mountain is quite clever. I didn't test it but a 2nd basic island may be necessary to really play around wasteland (ie make them dead cards).

I'm not sure if Tsabo s web is of great help vs 43 lands :).

Meekrab
12-26-2014, 11:47 PM
Kevin Jones took this deck to SCG PC, unfortunately didn't have an opportunity to play it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3096_deck_tech_grixis_control_with_.html
Awkward Blazer Man said that Dack is an answer to Chalice of the Void on 1 XD

Lightless
12-29-2014, 08:41 AM
Went 3wins, 0 losses, 2 draws(1 ID) at a tournament in the swiss portion and then lost in semifinals in the Top8 with this deck.
Still tinkering with the sideboard. I actualy abandoned the whole Lands, Jund-Depths etc. Matchup,
even with some slots in the board they can win faster than we assemble the bloodmoon-lock
or are still able to shut us down by playing or crop rotating for a tabernacle with some mana denial and/or Abrupt Decay.
I just don't wana deidcate to many valuable Sideboardslots to this matchup.

That said, here is my current Board

//Sideboard
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Electrickery
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Innocent Blood


I made a little change to the Manabase as well. I play a Mountain main instead of the 4th Volcanic Island and adjusted the fetches in that regard.
4 Scalding Tarn, 3 Polluted Delta, 2 Bloodstained Mire.

JosephK
01-03-2015, 07:17 PM
The sideboard of this deck is quite tricky indeed, since the grixis colours are not always adapted to a controll-ish startegy. Here is my tinkering about it :

We are susceptible to :

Strategies that don't care about Card advantage, namely Burn or dredge. (1)
Strategies that are aggressive before we can set up our soft lock (= pure CA) : mana denial strategies involving stifle and wasteland, chalices decks, early cb top lock, etc... (2)
Strategies involving threats that ignore our disrupting tools (making our CA engine useless) : lands, uncounterability. (3)
At last, we have to care about decks which prevent us from killing (Punishing fire). (4)

(1) Burn and Dredge are two different archetypes :
Burn ; cards at our disposal :
. Zuran orb, Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull (the better beeing Zuran Orb)
. Hydroblast, Flusterstorm
Dredge ; cards at our disposal :
. Surgical/extirpate, Nihil spellbomb, Graffdigger's cage (good in this match up but very anti synergistic with the rest of the deck in other match ups)
. Envelop, Flusterstorm, Hydroblast/Pyroblast

(2)Stifle and Wasteland :
. Flusterstorm
. Pyroblast
(Needle beeing bad)
[cabal is good in these MUs. 1 additional Mountain MD or SB is not enough to play around wasteland in my testing]
Chalice.decks :
. Meltdown (care if you play needle jitte etc...)
. Shattering spree
. Smash to smithereens
. Rakdos Charm
. Hurkyl's recall
(Bounces)
Cb top :
. Wipe away
. Pyroblast
. Pithing needle
. Null Rod
There is also a need for sweepers to punish players who empty their hand before the big Turn :
. Massacre
. Perish
. Sudden Demise
. Toxic Deluge
[I find electrickery too narrow : you won't generally race an opponent that is susceptible to Electrickery ; the point in these 4 sweepers is that they all have late game potential while Electrickery is more of an aggro card. Most of them are selective (ie don't kill your own pyro) because you want to end the game before you mill yourself]
A resolved Choke can also happen before our big turn, and the only out we have to this is to bounce it :
. Recoil
. Echoing Truth
. Wipe away


(3) First, let's list the lands we care about :
A. Cavern of souls, Boseiju
B. Cloudpost Vesuva Eye of Ugin, The Tabernacle at Pendrel Valley
C. Thespian Stage, Dark depth
D. Karakas Rishadan Port
(Manlands are easily dealt with, that's why they don't belong to this list, even if Nexus can be a pain sometimes)
Our colours give us :
. Blood moon (B, C)
. Ruination (B)
. Wasteland (A, B, C, d)
. Tsabo's Web (D)
. Sowing salt (a, b, c)
(And also Pithing needle (b, c) that I don't consider as a land slot)
I'm a proponent of giving two slots to fight lands strategy. To have a good "covering" (??) of the matter, one could play 1 Blood moon and 1 Tsabo's Web. It s a reasonable path that, however, makes us sometimes dependent on 1 card in the concerning match ups. Blood moon being also quite expected when it's useful, we have to protect it and sometimes keep Cabal Therapy for this purpose alone, which can lead to odd sideboard plans. Blood Moon has also the drawback to be very targeted since the deck has only one basic (a resolved blood moon has to win the game on the spot). Tsabo's web has this same liability as to be efficient in very few match ups. Incidentally, this plan makes us vulnerable to Boseiju (unless you want to side in Blood moon with your lone Island..). One could also have 2 Wasteland to fight lands. They are less expected than Blood Moon and can be quite impactful. They are also more versatile, in a way, but require to timewalk yourself as well. You'll have to do some testing to have your own opinion on the matter. Maybe you'll end up giving up these match ups :).

Uncounterability mainly concerns vial and Thrun, the last troll. We have needle against the former and Perish can answer the latter -or yp.

(4) Punishing fire will generally be dealt with Surgical extraction or Extirpate.


I feel like a sideboard should observe these 4 Points. Numbers are a matter of testing and metagame related.
I don't like possible anti-synergistic relations between cards of our 75. Null rod/Spellbomb (Storm) and Dack stealing Equipments ; Graffdigger/Snap and Cabal (Reanimator, Elves among others) ; etc..

Let me know your thoughts.

grimskies
01-06-2015, 03:33 AM
Great analysis, JosephK :)

I'd add Surgical Extraction as a SB slot to the second category, I was playing one Island version of this deck and met a Jund opponent with Loam lock, it wasn't pretty...

I agree with you that Cage messes up with our own plan and should be replaced with Nihil Spellbomb. I also agree on Electrickery. One damage is often not enough to swipe the opponent's board. I tried to focus on one sided "wrath" effects and played with Bonfire of the Damned, but it's not very good in this deck.

We definitely need a bounce spell, because a resolved Choke, Moat, etc. is game over, I'm leaning towards Wipe Away.

As for the third category, I don't have any ideas here, but I always felt that Tsabo's Web is not good enough.

Other random cards:
* Rakdos Charm
* Hurkyl's Recall

Kevin Jones finished 5th in SCG Columbus: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78199

LordOMJ
01-08-2015, 11:24 AM
I took the deck to a small LGS event last night (14 players) and went 3-0-1 with an ID in the final round to split store credit. The meta is mostly made up of pet decks and combo so take my results with a grain of salt (UB Pox, ANT, Doomsday, TES, MUD, Stax, Reanimator, BUG Delver, Sneak & Show, Zombardment, Punishing Jund, Solidarity, ???, me).

4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
1 Pyroblast
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
1 Preordain
2 Dack Fayden
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sudden Demise
1 Massacre
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Null Rod

Round 1 (UB Pox):
G1: Opponent mulls to 6, and never finds a second mana source.
G2: Opponent tears my hand apart with cabal therapy (T1 young pyromancer, later flashes back off a nether spirit to grab treasure cruise). I land Dack and loot for several turns, but never find a creature / spell combination that will live through his edict effects or a treasure cruise to utilize my 30 card graveyard.
G3: Opponent leads with Entomb for Nether Spirit. I aggressively exile his yard with Nihil Spellbomb. I managed to float treasure cruise and threats on top of my library with brainstorm to avoid his discard effects, and managed to have a big turn with young peazy and cantrips that his removal couldn’t come back from

Round 2 (Stax):
G1: Keep a hand with 2x brainstorm and 2x probe. Feel good about my keep until he leads with t1 CotV. Opponent follows up with trinisphere, wasteland, and crucible of worlds. I negate wasteland’s impact by holding up uncracked fetches until I get my third mana source, then play dack fayden and steal his crucible of worlds. Between two rishadan port and his trinisphere it takes a while, but I eventually proceed to steamroll him in what would otherwise have been an unwinnable game. Cruising for 1 mana against an opponent’s trinisphere feels so dirty.
G2: Opponent mulls to 5, and doesn’t get CotV until turn 2. I get down a turn 3 dack and loot as it takes hits from mishra’s factory. Manage to find a TNN before dack dies, and never look back from there.

Round 3 (MUD):
G1: I know what I’m facing, so I mull to 6 and keep with 1 land, dack, and multiple cantrips. If he doesn’t hit CotV on one, I’m confident I can land Dack and take control of the game. He does. I find my third land a turn too late, and play can’t play dack profitably because his kuldotha forgemaster has already been in play for a turn.
G2: T1 cabal therapy for CotV and miss, which I still count as a win. He chains sol land and grim monolith into trinisphere, then next turn plays a great furnace and lightning greaves with 2 metalworkers and plenty of other artifacts in hand. I steal his great furnace with dack, and he never sees another mana source.
G3: I lead with a grafdigger’s cage to shut off welder and forgemaseter, which never matters because he gets an early lodestone golem with lightning greaves when I only have 1 red mana up to cast bolt. I proceeded to feel sad and do taxed cantriping to eventually play a young pyromancer at 1 life without enough mana to make a token. Opponent is borrowing the deck from a friend, and punts by playing ensnaring bridge (not realizing it effects both players) and 2 cards in hand. I proceed to slam null rod, then TNN and never look back. I may have been able to get there if he didn’t play the bridge, but I don’t remember how much farther down the TNN was when he played the bridge.

Round 4 (BUG Delver)
We ID to split credit, then play the match for fun
G1: I don’t remember much about the early game board states, but I do remember that I cast 3 treasure cruise and pitched the 4th to force of will to counter a ponder when it was the last card in his hand and he had an unflipped delver out. Kill him in one shot with elemental tokens and a true name nemesis.
G2: lead with probe to see stifle and wasteland. Play out fetchlands, then force him to use both turn 2. (crack fetch 1, no response. Grab volc. Crack fetch 2, wasteland in response, float blue, opponent stifles, I flusterstorm. Grab U sea, then ponder and surgical extraction his wasteland). Opponent stumbles on mana while I continue to draw lands.


Overall I’m really happy with the deck. Still not sold on a few slots in SB (I considered replacing Zuran Orb with Chill to help against Burn, but I think it hurts us too much). Rakdos Charm could be Shattering Spree, but I’ll take it over Smash to Smithereens any day. Dack was an absolute house, and I always seemed to find him when I needed him. If I found a spot where I could stick him and my opponent couldn’t answer him immediately, I always felt so ahead in the game. Fire // Ice was in the deck because I don’t own a second forked bolt. The versatility is nice, but the extra mana makes a big difference. Maybe if I faced reanimator or sneak and show I would have felt differently, but I’m problably picking up the second forked bolt. I’m a big fan of the 4th cabal therapy, but would probably want 2 pyroblast in a more normal meta. Baleful strix hasn’t impressed me (not that it’s been expressly bad), so I might swap that slot instead since both are answers to delver.

JosephK
01-09-2015, 04:58 AM
Hi grimskies,

I edited my post to add your suggestions :). I have difficulties to classify the Loam Lock ; it can be used on a board state where they are either ahead on or if we are in a stalemate (I mean that noone has the edge on the board) and after turn 3 (to cast loam and waste). At that time, we should be able to deploy cabal + cruise. In a way we can answer it by countering once or twice (dredging takes a drawstep) and race them in the meantime. But I agree that it is a difficult card to answer. Theoretically though, it seems not too good a card vs us because it is online too late and they will never have the edge on the board (I'm talking about Mus without Stifle or Exploration/Manabond ofc, which are already treated).
Each time I faced this card I had my maindeck Spellbomb in hand so I may be a little biased :).

The bounce spells : Wipe away is good because it can't be countered but it is harder to cast (vs Choke for instance). Echoing truth makes sure to answer the problematic permanent (2 chokes, 2 chalices on 1, 2 KotR -yeah it happened to me^^ etc..) and can be used vs Enter the Warrens/Entreat the Angels.


@Lordofmj

Nice results !

You have an interesting Ratched Bomb in your board. Did you choose to play it for a specific reason ?
(Against Choke it will eat decay and has to be on the battlefield before CB :) )

Baleful strix is an awesome card in the deck. As well as being a disruptive tool vs creatures, Cabal therapy turns it into a free discard spell against other decks. Is is also our only flying creature ; that can sometimes matter (1 more turn vs Marit Large^^).

LordOMJ
01-09-2015, 09:59 AM
@Lordofmj

Nice results !

You have an interesting Ratched Bomb in your board. Did you choose to play it for a specific reason ?
(Against Choke it will eat decay and has to be on the battlefield before CB :) )

Baleful strix is an awesome card in the deck. As well as being a disruptive tool vs creatures, Cabal therapy turns it into a free discard spell against other decks. Is is also our only flying creature ; that can sometimes matter (1 more turn vs Marit Large^^).

re: Ratchet Bomb
Very specifically, actually. The friend I drive to tournaments with is primarily an enchantress player, and I wanted a way to deal with problematic permanents. Neither it nor EE are particularly strong options (he has O-ring much as decks with Choke might run Abrupt Decay) but I wanted something and I would rather invest mana once than twice so I can continue to advance my own gameplan. It's on par with EE against Dredge, TES, Belcher, and UR Delver for wiping tokens and flipped delvers. It's a full turn slower against Elves, but I haven't seen the deck at that particular shop in months. It's only real use on Wednesday was destroying CotV against Stax. I can't say I love the slot and it's probably not there against a broader metagame. I don't like bounce spells as a way to deal with problematic permanents either though, since they require mana to use and countermagic to prevent their redeploy - which even when we have it often equates for 3-1ing ourselves between the bounce spell and two cards for FoW.

Arksz
01-13-2015, 12:24 PM
The deck put up a ton of results in Philly. Many copies in the top 128. It seems a bit soft against storm with the lack of counter magic though.

LordOMJ
01-13-2015, 04:55 PM
Since MTGTop8 doesn't seem to have the most recent tourney results, I compiled information about the day 2 Grixis Control decks into a single Excel file. A total of five copies in the top 32 and one more in the top 64 of a 566 player event. I'm going to assume that Eli and company had some discussion about card choices considering the commonalities most lists share (1 Dack, 1 DTT, 1 Innocent Blood, etc.) and if so congrats to the group of them for putting so many players into day 2 and the top of this event.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2333126/SCGPHILLY%20Decklists.JPG

heat_wave
01-14-2015, 02:27 AM
Hello fellow players,

I decided to give this deck a try and took it to a local legacy event (17 men). Went 2-2, but am really pleased with the deck nonetheless. Won against ANT 2-0, Miracles 2-0. Lost against BUG Delver 1-2 (on his last additional turn), UR Delver 1-2. Dack Fayden, Snapcaster Mage, TNN were all amazing. If you resolve Dack, he gives so much card quality, just wow. Found out that the deck is susceptible to Stifle (BUG) and Price of Progress (UR). I'm also a little disappointed that all countermagic that we have is a set of Forces. I had no DTTs this time, so there were 2 TNNs in my list. The deck probably wants as much digging power as possible, so DTT is certainly in for next time. Sudden Demise also gets a nod here, being able to wipe really awkward boards.

grimskies
01-14-2015, 01:32 PM
@Arksz: you could add some Flusterstorms to the sideboard, this should help a bit, have a look at OP's list.

@LordOMJ: interesting comparison, it seems that Dack is fading away...
With most of the lists playing a single Mountain in the sideboard, I think that Jason Smith's choice of fetchlands seems to be more reasonable.

cheerios
01-18-2015, 01:03 AM
How important is Dack Fayden in the deck? I'm planning to build the deck but replace Dack with JTMS since I don't own any Dacks.

Cheers

Lightless
01-18-2015, 08:03 AM
Dack refills your graveyard for more cruises... to be honest after you played him at least once you dont want to miss him. I allready stole, Jitte, Batterskul, Aether Vial, Expedition Map, 2 Fatestitcher, SoFaI ... and more xD

Jayce is poorly positioned in the current metagame. The mass of creatures most decks bring to the board, especially the young pyromancer type of decks, can kill him easily. So I don't think you should play him... but anyway try it and post something about your experience with him, after all I didn't try him in this shell yet, cause I'm sold on the Duck... Dack.

JosephK
01-19-2015, 11:16 AM
One of the best shell to abuse cruise was the Grixis shell. Its strength relied on Cabal therapy which ensured to resolve our key spells. This proactive way of thinking is maybe not suited to the new Dig through Time meta which lies ahead of us.

Too bad, this deck was skill intensive, rewarded good plays, the reason why we like this game.

DemolitionColorScheme
01-19-2015, 05:43 PM
One of the best shell to abuse cruise was the Grixis shell. Its strength relied on Cabal therapy which ensured to resolve our key spells. This proactive way of thinking is maybe not suited to the new Dig through Time meta which lies ahead of us.

Too bad, this deck was skill intensive, rewarded good plays, the reason why we like this game.
Agreed. From the moment I started this thread, I've been maining it for that all time and checked back at this topic every day. I was really loving it and it's a shame to say so, but without Cruise, this deck is probably dead. Grixis Control really never was a thing, but Cruise + Dack made it possible. I can hardly imagine us swapping our Cruises for Digs ... sadly.

DemolitionColorScheme
01-19-2015, 05:53 PM
I talk now and then with Eli Kassis on facebook and having done so just now; he feels that swapping to Dig isn't such a big deal and does allow for more card selection (quality) over quantity.
It's worth a shot. He'll be testing it and I guess so can we.

cheerios
01-19-2015, 06:40 PM
Are we updating the manabase? It seems like wasteland is coming back. As a counter to this possibility, I'm planning to add another island into the maindeck. Your thoughts guys?

Cheers

JosephK
01-19-2015, 06:52 PM
That's very interesting. However I doubt it.

Dig through time is at its best in a reactive control deck. You generally want to dig in response to a spell (and find the answer) or EOT to resolve a big spell afterwards (typically Jace). Dig is very synergistic with counterspells (and with Jace : +2 every turn and you keep dig to answer whatever they play) but not with discard spells.

One of the best shell to abuse Dig may well be Golddigger UWR but I hope that I'm wrong and that Eli Kassis will give us something as wonderful as his Grixis Cruise Control deck.

EDIT : I was tinkering and one could modify the deck around those lines :

18 Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Underground sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Tnn (it is actually better with dig)
1 Strix
2 Snap
4 YP

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Dig Through time

4 Force of will
3 Cabal
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

4 Lightning bolt
1 Forked bolt
1 Innocent blood
1 Sudden demise

SB :
1 Vendilion Clique (good in a Dig shell)
1 Red Elemental blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop

1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil spellbomb

1 Umezawa's Jitte (personal favourite but Zuran Orb is still important for Burn)
1 Perish (Remember that bug is back)
1 Massacre

1 Blood moon
1 Tsabo's web
1 Smash to smithereens
1 Echoing truth (Night's betrayal is back in shardless)




But Cabal + Dig feels weird... To be examined. I also have another way of building it (featuring punishing fire).

Tom
01-20-2015, 01:31 PM
I love the deck.

I run 2 decays in the main, too, so it is rather 4 colour control than grixis. I like it very much though as it adds much more reach to the deck and if I haven't drawn it or don't need it, I don't fetch for Trops. So far, colourscrewing has not been an issue.

On another note: With the banning of Cruise, why is nobody playing Murderous Cut?

Qonog
01-22-2015, 09:14 AM
With the banning of cruise, I think the deck might be able to step back from the Young Pyromancer strategy and go a bit more controlling.

Here is the List me and my playgroup have been working on:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Ponder
3 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtsieze
2 Spell Snare
2 Dig Through Time
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire//Ice
1 Toxic Deluge

2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland

Jeff
01-26-2015, 01:38 PM
I top 8'd the IQ this weekend with a version of this deck playing 4 Digs instead of Cruise. The list wasn't perfect, but considering I'd never played it before and threw it together Friday night, I was pretty happy with it. I wrote a tournament report (http://delifscube.blogspot.com/2015/01/tournament-report-8th-with-grixis-at.html) with an updated decklist and some thoughts on how certain cards played out.

LordOMJ
01-26-2015, 02:18 PM
I top 8'd the IQ this weekend with a version of this deck playing 4 Digs instead of Cruise. The list wasn't perfect, but considering I'd never played it before and threw it together Friday night, I was pretty happy with it. I wrote a tournament report (http://delifscube.blogspot.com/2015/01/tournament-report-8th-with-grixis-at.html) with an updated decklist and some thoughts on how certain cards played out.

Congrats on the finish Jeff, and thanks for the report. Terminate is a card I considered for my local meta, and I think that your logic for it's inclusion may well bear out. In the situations where you cast it, how would it have compared to an Innocent Blood? If the banning of cruise results in a drop in Young Pyromancer I could see that switch making sense as well (although it Monastery Mentor catches on I do doubt it). I'm not sure how comfortable you are weighing in since you never played the deck with cruise, but how did DTT perform. Intuitively I feel like it pulls the deck towards a more draw-go play style that isn't necessary synergistic with cards like young pyromancer and cabal therapy.

I do agree with your assessment that more lands are needed - both because mana denial will be on the rise again and because your curve has more 2 cmc plus spells (terminate, DTT, counterspell, and creatures) than it did during the cruise days.

Jeff
01-26-2015, 03:08 PM
Terminate is a card I considered for my local meta, and I think that your logic for it's inclusion may well bear out. In the situations where you cast it, how would it have compared to an Innocent Blood?

Terminate was definitely much better than innocent blood would've been. I terminated numerous time against RUG where I had a TNN out and they had 2 goyfs, for example. I also used it against several decks where I killed a goyf or siege rhino (!) with a deathrite shaman still on the table that i cleaned up later with a burn spell or just ignored. I don't think Innocent Blood is good in this deck.


I'm not sure how comfortable you are weighing in since you never played the deck with cruise, but how did DTT perform.

Dig was amazing. The deck 100% can't exist without it, but it let me play a lot of situational cards and find them when I needed them.


Intuitively I feel like it pulls the deck towards a more draw-go play style that isn't necessary synergistic with cards like young pyromancer and cabal therapy.

The way the deck played out was pretty consistent across all of the matchups I played. In the early game, I cantripped to fill the yard and make my land drops, while trading 1 for 1 with my opponent. I only cast Therapy when I was guaranteed to hit or absolutely couldn't answer a card if they had it, and otherwise just held on to it for later. Once I made it to 3 or 4 lands, I started pulling away on card advantage with Dig and Snapcaster. Pyromancer worked perfectly in this strategy. Unlike U/R delver with cruise, I almost never played it on turn 2 and then immediately probed to get a token. I used it as a threat I could play once I was done trading with everything that could very quickly win me the game. I was far more likely to play a pyromancer on turn 4 or 5, then cast 3 more spells and pass the turn with an army on the board ready to go. Therapy worked great in this strategy as well, because it helped me pull further away in card advantage late.


I do agree with your assessment that more lands are needed - both because mana denial will be on the rise again and because your curve has more 2 cmc plus spells (terminate, DTT, counterspell, and creatures) than it did during the cruise days.

Exactly. I almost added an extra one before the tournament but I really just didn't spend enough time testing to know for sure what needed to be there.

LordOMJ
01-26-2015, 03:53 PM
Dig was amazing. The deck 100% can't exist without it, but it let me play a lot of situational cards and find them when I needed them.

The way the deck played out was pretty consistent across all of the matchups I played. In the early game, I cantripped to fill the yard and make my land drops, while trading 1 for 1 with my opponent. I only cast Therapy when I was guaranteed to hit or absolutely couldn't answer a card if they had it, and otherwise just held on to it for later. Once I made it to 3 or 4 lands, I started pulling away on card advantage with Dig and Snapcaster. Pyromancer worked perfectly in this strategy. Unlike U/R delver with cruise, I almost never played it on turn 2 and then immediately probed to get a token. I used it as a threat I could play once I was done trading with everything that could very quickly win me the game. I was far more likely to play a pyromancer on turn 4 or 5, then cast 3 more spells and pass the turn with an army on the board ready to go. Therapy worked great in this strategy as well, because it helped me pull further away in card advantage late.

It sounds like the way you played the deck - filling your yard, saving Pyromancer for after the dust clears, etc - is pretty spot on with how most games played out when cruise was legal. Did you find yourself casting DTT during your opponent's turn, or were you often casting it during your turn so you could dig for additional options you could deploy that turn (sorceries like therapy, forked bolt, ponder, and creatures). In either case, do you think you would have time to cast DTT and other spells in the same turn? Or did mana availability limit your options to a one-or-the-other scenario?

btm10
01-26-2015, 03:55 PM
Congrats on the finish Jeff, and thanks for the report. Terminate is a card I considered for my local meta, and I think that your logic for it's inclusion may well bear out. In the situations where you cast it, how would it have compared to an Innocent Blood? If the banning of cruise results in a drop in Young Pyromancer I could see that switch making sense as well (although it Monastery Mentor catches on I do doubt it). I'm not sure how comfortable you are weighing in since you never played the deck with cruise, but how did DTT perform. Intuitively I feel like it pulls the deck towards a more draw-go play style that isn't necessary synergistic with cards like young pyromancer and cabal therapy.

I do agree with your assessment that more lands are needed - both because mana denial will be on the rise again and because your curve has more 2 cmc plus spells (terminate, DTT, counterspell, and creatures) than it did during the cruise days.

I've found basically the same things as well, particularly with regard to Dack being not-so-great, and that was even with Cruise. He's great if you're expecting a lot of Blade matchups or other things with artifacts that you can steal (I've stolen Caldelabra of Twanos from 12Post and Sword of the Meek from a Thopter/Sword deck, both leading to game wins), but other than that he's just good in control mirrors so you can Delve more and faster and he makes your Brainstorms better. I'm not sold on cutting him from the 75, but I won't be running more than a single maindeck copy, and may end up moving him to the board.

As for Terminate, I've done some testing with Dreadbore and thought it was good, but Sorcery speed is a bit of a liability. It may even get better now with Planeswalkers like Liliana and Espeth showing up more, but at Sorcery speed Innocent Blood was just better because there weren't a ton of Planeswalkers in the Cruise era. Going forward I'll test both it and Terminate, as the Instant speed might be enough to make up for 2 CMC like you said. Also, Recoil is surprisingly good.

grimskies
01-26-2015, 03:57 PM
Congratulations Jeff :)

Do you think the deck is able to run Murderous Cut in place of Terminate?

Esper3k
01-26-2015, 04:16 PM
Well done, Jeff!

A few questions:

- I notice you were wanting a bounce spell. What were you mostly wanting to bounce? If low CMC, would Repeal be a possible option?

- Have you considered maybe JTMS in the Dack Fayden slot now that you're playing more blocker creatures?

- With you trimming Dack, is there any reason to play a pure Pyroblast/Hydroblast mix and not add in some REB/BEB instead?

- Smash to Smithereens - I'm always curious, but why people are running this instead of Rakdos Charm? Are you all finding the 1R or 3 damage that relevant?

Jeff
01-26-2015, 04:19 PM
It sounds like the way you played the deck - filling your yard, saving Pyromancer for after the dust clears, etc - is pretty spot on with how most games played out when cruise was legal. Did you find yourself casting DTT during your opponent's turn, or were you often casting it during your turn so you could dig for additional options you could deploy that turn (sorceries like therapy, forked bolt, ponder, and creatures). In either case, do you think you would have time to cast DTT and other spells in the same turn? Or did mana availability limit your options to a one-or-the-other scenario?

I'd say I cast dig 50/50 my turn/their turn. Mostly when I was doing it on my turn I was looking for something specific, when I was doing it on their turn I was looking for value. I often had 5 or 6 lands in play, and more than once had all 8 either in play or the graveyard after wasteland. I found myself routinely using all of my mana, even when there were 6 lands in play.


As for Terminate, I've done some testing with Dreadbore and thought it was good, but Sorcery speed is a bit of a liability. It may even get better now with Planeswalkers like Liliana and Espeth showing up more, but at Sorcery speed Innocent Blood was just better because there weren't a ton of Planeswalkers in the Cruise era. Going forward I'll test both it and Terminate, as the Instant speed might be enough to make up for 2 CMC like you said. Also, Recoil is surprisingly good.

My playgroup and I came to the same conclusion after discussing it, but I honestly haven't tested it. Dreadbore vs Terminate comes down to playstyle and preference. It's going to matter so few times one way or the other that I'd play the one that makes you feel most comfortable. What do you prefer in your games, passing the turn with mana up and options, or holding a spell that can answer anything they play? I don't think there's a "right" answer


Do you think the deck is able to run Murderous Cut in place of Terminate?

You could, but I don't think you should. The 2CMC just wasn't a liability. I'm coming to this deck from years of playing Team America, where Maelstrom Pulse and then Abrupt Decay have convinced me that versatile removal spells that cost more than 1 really aren't that bad. I can't think of a single instance all day where Terminate costing 2 was a big deal, and I can think of several instances where Murderous Cut would've been decidedly subpar.

JosephK
01-26-2015, 04:49 PM
Congratulations for your results.

I think that your point of view on Terminate is a little biased by your results (and pairings) and by the great feelings you had got in destroying siege rhino ^^. Let's be honest, the card is bad. It is not very good with snap because of its manacost and is terribly bad in non creature Mus. With Dig snap pyro and blasts, innocent blood will deal with any creature (the case you mention tnn vs 2 goyfs is quite marginal). If you want to deal with random cards like siege rhino or kotr, just adapt your sb (perish is an option). You can't play snap in grixis without at least one main deck pyroblast. You didn't encounter Miracles or Omnishow for instance, which are both DTB (and quite played in Europe) and where pyroblast is necessary.

Otherwise, I quite agree with your opinion on Dack. Jace is a (very) nice substitute.

btm10
01-26-2015, 05:22 PM
I think that your point of view on Terminate is a little biased by your results (and pairings) and by the great feelings you had got in destroying siege rhino ^^. Let's be honest, the card is bad. It is not very good with snap because of its manacost and is terribly bad in non creature Mus. With Dig snap pyro and blasts, innocent blood will deal with any creature (the case you mention tnn vs 2 goyfs is quite marginal). If you want to deal with random cards like siege rhino or kotr, just adapt your sb (perish is an option). You can't play snap in grixis without at least one main deck pyroblast. You didn't encounter Miracles or Omnishow for instance, which are both DTB (and quite played in Europe) and where pyroblast is necessary.


I don't think this is quite right. I expect considerably fewer people on Miracles in the US now as a lot of people (at least at my local) are going back to the BUG decks that prey on Miracles (and based on my preliminary testing, Grixis). These decks run Goyf and Liliana (which Pyroblast can't answer and against which Bolt is pretty marginal) and where Dreadbore/Terminate are big upgrades over Pyroblast. We run enough cantrips (and Dig and Dack) that getting to 4 or 5 mana isn't an issue, especially with adding a land. If BGx decks that aren't BUG come back, more than a singleton MB Pyroblast is going to be pretty loose. You aren't scared only of the Green creatures out of these decks as both Tasigur and Tombstalker are viable options, and Junk in particular floods the board with creatures making Innocent Blood less effective.


Another option that I've been tempted to try is adding a small green splash out of the board for 2 Decays if you're in a Miracles heavy meta. I haven't tested this, but unless they go back to Ruination/Blood Moon as staple sideboard options it should be a big deal in the matchup.

Jeff
01-26-2015, 05:35 PM
I didn't encounter Miracles, but I did play against a hard UWR control list. No tops, but still Jaces, Counterspells, Council's Judgments, etc. Similar deck strategy. Won 2-0.

I don't understand why you think Innocent Blood is good in a deck with only 4 ways to make a creature you actually want to sacrifice to it. I don't understand why you think it's good in a metagame where a lot of the creature decks are encouraged to put multiple creatures on the board. How many times are you going to have an Innocent Blood and be looking at a Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman and think "I really wish this could kill that Tarmogoyf"?

I routinely had situations where my only creature on board was a Baleful Strix or a True-Name Nemesis. I don't know in how many of those situations I drew terminate and killed something with it, but I know that on a regular basis I would not have wanted to sacrifice my strix or TNN to Diabolic Edict my opponent. I played against the fastest creature decks in the format (U/R and RUG) and at no point in those matchups was the 2nd mana I had to spend on terminate a liability.

Beyond that, I'm amused that you're arguing that Terminate is bad in non-creature matchups and then telling me I should play Innocent Blood.

JosephK
01-26-2015, 06:50 PM
I don't think this is quite right. I expect considerably fewer people on Miracles in the US now as a lot of people (at least at my local) are going back to the BUG decks that prey on Miracles (and based on my preliminary testing, Grixis). These decks run Goyf and Liliana (which Pyroblast can't answer and against which Bolt is pretty marginal) and where Dreadbore/Terminate are big upgrades over Pyroblast. We run enough cantrips (and Dig and Dack) that getting to 4 or 5 mana isn't an issue, especially with adding a land. If BGx decks that aren't BUG come back, more than a singleton MB Pyroblast is going to be pretty loose. You aren't scared only of the Green creatures out of these decks as both Tasigur and Tombstalker are viable options, and Junk in particular floods the board with creatures making Innocent Blood less effective.

If you expect a junk meta, then I agree that Terminate>Pyroblast but I prefer to come prepared vs Miracles in a big event (also vs Delver and blue in general). For Tasigur and Tombstalker, we have Jace too. The deck answers planeswalkers with young pyromancer (liliana is bad against us).



I didn't encounter Miracles, but I did play against a hard UWR control list. No tops, but still Jaces, Counterspells, Council's Judgments, etc. Similar deck strategy. Won 2-0.
The main problem of the Miracles MU is only one card : counterbalance (Entreat is not a problem in general). The UWR control MU is quite different because they have a strong late game too (I don't know if you face a 4 Dig version) but no "game breaking" cards. (I consider Miracles as a combo MU with this deck).



I don't understand why you think Innocent Blood is good in a deck with only 4 ways to make a creature you actually want to sacrifice to it. I don't understand why you think it's good in a metagame where a lot of the creature decks are encouraged to put multiple creatures on the board. How many times are you going to have an Innocent Blood and be looking at a Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman and think "I really wish this could kill that Tarmogoyf"?

If strix is alive, you don't need to cast innocent blood. Sacrificing a yp token or snapcaster is not a problem. The one creature you don't want to sacrifice is tnn. It's not that difficult to play with that in mind. I also play only 1 tnn. Maybe we play the deck slightly differently.
The main difference between terminate and innocent blood is that one deals with tnn, the other doesn't. As a control deck, this is something I want to be able to do.


Beyond that, I'm amused that you're arguing that Terminate is bad in non-creature matchups and then telling me I should play Innocent Blood.
Pyroblast, Innocent blood and Terminate were discussed :). I'm not telling you what you should play^^ ; you made me realize some things. I was quite reluctant at first to play 4 dig (thinking that it was too mana hungry) but I will definitely play 4 from now on. Thank you for posting on this forum and make the discussion go further.

cheerios
01-26-2015, 10:49 PM
@Jeff:

Have you tried playing diabolic edict instead of terminate? I'm currently playing 2 edicts in my version and has been happy so far with the results.

Jeff
01-27-2015, 01:43 AM
@Jeff:

Have you tried playing diabolic edict instead of terminate? I'm currently playing 2 edicts in my version and has been happy so far with the results.

I did not consider that. When building the deck I was far more concerned with Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Tasigur than Nimble Mongoose or True-Name. Is there some other consideration I should be aware of that makes edict better?

cheerios
01-27-2015, 01:49 AM
@Jeff: Edict can kill all the mentioned creatures (specifically TNN) and is easier to cast if you are using more basics in the deck. It can be useful against decks with mother of runes since you don't have to play around mom and just let them sac a creature with it. Btw I'm playing 4 bolts, 2 forked bolts, and 2 edicts with 9 creatures only.

Jeff
01-27-2015, 12:40 PM
@Jeff: Edict can kill all the mentioned creatures (specifically TNN) and is easier to cast if you are using more basics in the deck. It can be useful against decks with mother of runes since you don't have to play around mom and just let them sac a creature with it. Btw I'm playing 4 bolts, 2 forked bolts, and 2 edicts with 9 creatures only.

All of that is true, but I would take the ability to kill Tarmogoyf when there's something else on the board over any of that. There's no right answer, I don't think, it's another narrow thing that comes down to personal preference.

Lightless
01-31-2015, 04:09 PM
Hi I'm playing in a tournament tommorow and will pilot this deck again, cause i still think that it is a verry viable option.
I'm not yet set on the exact list, but i would like to mention a neat little card that i didn't see in any other list yet.

Unearth

Unearth is a pretty usefull card in our deck in the way that it gets back ALL our creatures. Snapcaster Mage? check! Young Pyromancer? check! Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis? DoubleCheck!
And it doesn't even end there. If it's sitting useless in your hand you can cycle it and get a new card and with Snapcaster in your library it waits in your graveyard for later use or delving.
The Most insane play you can manufacture? (And it's not even that difficult cause of the rate we browse through our library.)

Unearth return Snapcaster, target the unearth with the Trigger and get back another creature.
I managed to do it with Snapcaster as the start and unearthing True Name with it. Not to shabby.

So, searching for a little edge in your deck? You may try unearth ;)

Kind Regards

Me

Jeff
01-31-2015, 09:05 PM
Hi I'm playing in a tournament tommorow and will pilot this deck again, cause i still think that it is a verry viable option.
I'm not yet set on the exact list, but i would like to mention a neat little card that i didn't see in any other list yet.

Unearth

Unearth is a pretty usefull card in our deck in the way that it gets back ALL our creatures. Snapcaster Mage? check! Young Pyromancer? check! Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis? DoubleCheck!
And it doesn't even end there. If it's sitting useless in your hand you can cycle it and get a new card and with Snapcaster in your library it waits in your graveyard for later use or delving.
The Most insane play you can manufacture? (And it's not even that difficult cause of the rate we browse through our library.)

Unearth return Snapcaster, target the unearth with the Trigger and get back another creature.
I managed to do it with Snapcaster as the start and unearthing True Name with it. Not to shabby.

So, searching for a little edge in your deck? You may try unearth ;)

Kind Regards

Me

Unearth is sweet. I remember playing it in BUG decks with Snapcaster right after Snapcaster was printed. My only concern is whether or not I really want another graveyard reliant card in the deck. When I played against Leyline of the Void it really shut down way more of the deck than I expected it to, and Deathrite is already pretty good against us. As a one-of, though, I could probably be convinced to try it. Cycling is really nice if it doesn't work out.

Kyle
01-31-2015, 11:33 PM
I love Unearth, but I think you might as well play Reanimate and gain the ability to steal your opponent's dead creature (for minimal lifeloss) or even a Griselbrand if playing against Reanimator.

The versatility makes up for the lifeloss, in my opinion.

cheerios
02-01-2015, 11:30 AM
I played this deck to a 2nd place finish in a 6 round tourney.

Here's my decklist:
3underground sea
3volcanic island
2island
1mountain
4scalding tarn
4polluted delta
1misty rainforest
4gitaxian probe
4dig through time
4ponder
4brainstorm
4force of will
2counterspell
3cabal therapy
4young pyromancer
2true name nemesis
2snapcaster mage
1baleful strix
4lightning bolt
2forked bolt
2diabolic edict

1cabal therapy
1umezawa's jitte
1rakdos charm
1pyroclasm
1red elemental blast
1smash to smithereens
1null rod
1massacre
1nihil spellbomb
1surgical extraction
1engineered explosives
1jace, the mind sculptor
1hydroblast
2pyroblast

Lost to bug delver in the swiss. And lost to dnt in the finals. The deck is fun to play and can matchup well with most decks. However, fast mana denial decks can be troublesome but workable.

I'm planning to change the jitte to a lavamancer and probably add another strix in the 75.

Edit: updated treasure cruise to dtt ☺

Lightless
02-01-2015, 02:52 PM
@cheerios: why did no one stop you when u played 4 banned cards in the Main deck? Treasure Cruise sadly is no more...

Okay, like I posted in my last Post....

I played today in a Legacy Tournament with the Deck, here are the 75 I played.

Updated List from Lausanne 01.02.2015

//PW
2 Dack Fayden

//Creatures
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
4 Young Pyromancer

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Unearth
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Forked Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

//Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb

It was a 24 player tournament with cut to Top 8. So here are the Results ;)

1st Round VS Death& Taxes 2-0

She did a lot of mistakes, like not Plowsharing in response to Therapy even when I knew she had 2 of them in hand. To mke it short.
1st Game Dack stole her Vial and left her on 2 lands... Spirit of the Labyrinth + Dack Fayden interaction ripped her Hand apart.
2nd Game Bonfire of the Damned killed 3 Mother of runes + Flickerwhisp... Yeah Needle does things ;)

2nd Round VS Junk 1-1-1

If I recall the game correctly, a greedy keep on 1 land cost me the 1st Game. The 2nd Game was pretty grindy and I got thr with a TNN, and the 3rd game went overtime with a choke in play.
3 Bolts are still casteable with 1 Mountain + random drawn Lands.

3rd Round VS Miracles 2-0

I like my miracles matchup and he started on 6 in the first game. Pyromancer and Therapy just shred his hand and 2 Bolts sealed the deal after he "terminus"ed away 4 tokens +2 Pyromancer
In the 2nd game I had no pressure but he conceded after Dack hit his ultimate.

4th Round VS Jund 1-1-1

This time the 1st game was the grindy one and I love grindy... My lifepad was full with numbers cause of Grove and Punishing fire, but i got there with TNN.
I just could not resist to play unearth -> Snapcaster -> unearth -> TNN , even if snapcaster + Bolt would have killed him... "Hey, you wanna see an awesome play?"
2nd Game I let a Bob resolve that shouldn't and payed for it...
3rd with 2 Minutes on the clock... Snapcaster, 2Bolt, Toxic Deluge, 3 Lands couldn't win, but also couldn'd loose.

5th Round VS Omnitell 2-0

1st game again Pyro + 2 Therapys shred his hand and provided a pretty fast clock
2nd game he mulled to 5 my counterspells did the rest.


So with 3-0-2 I was in the Top 8... 2nd seat cause there were so many draws...

Top8 VS Omnitell (same opponent as 5th Round) 2-0

And actually same game as Round 5... 1st Game Therapy + Pyro + TNN + counters
2nd Game mull to 6 but only cantrips, no business.

Top4 VS Elves 2-0

1st Game He hit 4 Mana and played some small dorks, so I was like "okay no Natural Order" i played Pyromancer + Therapy naming something and see "Craterhoof + Ruric Thar + Natural Order" hit the Hoof on the Backswing and produced tons of tokens in the next Turns for the win.

2nd Game He flooded the board with Dorks. I handled his Natural order with a Force and got myself down to 6... I flooded out a little and got to 6 mana... Brainstorm seeing a Bonfire casting that fro X=2 killed everything he got.

Final VS TES 1-2

To make it short, he drew better and I may should have taken another approach to the game. 1st game I shred his hand and provided a decent clock 2nd game I had no clock but some disruption to the point were he was on 1 card in Hand, drew an Ad Nauseam with, Iresponded with Dig Through time and saw... NOTHING.
The 3rd game i kept cause of Probe and Therapy took his Infernal Tutor, he draws Empty the warrens and puts down 12 Tokens... gg

So 2nd Place which is pretty good for me.

I still like the deck. I think maybe some adjustments might be necessary but I cannot tell what and with what to replace. Maybe if i get some more insight on the new metagame.

Thanks for reading

Kind regards

Me

cheerios
02-01-2015, 07:37 PM
@lightless. Treasure cruise should be dig through time. I don't know why I typed treasure cruise

JosephK
02-02-2015, 08:09 AM
Congratulations to you all !

Here is my latest list :

1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [UNH] Island
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [C13] Baleful Strix
1 [C13] True-Name Nemesis
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [7E] Counterspell
2 [5E] Pyroblast
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
1 [M11] Preordain
1 [C13] Sudden Demise
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M12] Ponder
SB: 1 [IN] Tsabo's Web
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast


Even though I had some results with it (similar to yours), I'm quite sure it is not the best Dig Through Time deck. So I won't be playing it anymore. Good luck !

EDIT : I was wrong... In the current metagame, the deck is awesome, but has to be tweaked a little.

hoodwinked
02-26-2015, 02:58 AM
Do you have a current list? A number have been showing up in dailys

Lightless
02-27-2015, 08:38 PM
It was pretty easy to find on of the current lists on mtggoldfish.com http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/267560#online.

But to be honest I don't like the list. It's all in on countering everything and not putting out pressure, except with young pyromancer.

The main advantage you got with Dig Through Time is that you can play so many 1-offs cause you go through your whole deck in a game. Playing only 1 Dack Fayden is wrong from my point of view. Like I said you want to see as many cards as possible and Dack helps a lot with that. And on the other hand he steals alot of artifact ;). I actualy didn't change alot from my last list I posted in this thread till now, except that i play a Fire // Ice instead of the Forked bolt and trying out other options to replace Bonfire Of The Damned, currently its Fire Covenant. The Tasigur in the sideboard is not a bad option I think, should be tested.

Narcind
02-28-2015, 06:00 AM
It was pretty easy to find on of the current lists on mtggoldfish.com http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/267560#online.

But to be honest I don't like the list. It's all in on countering everything and not putting out pressure, except with young pyromancer.

The main advantage you got with Dig Through Time is that you can play so many 1-offs cause you go through your whole deck in a game. Playing only 1 Dack Fayden is wrong from my point of view. Like I said you want to see as many cards as possible and Dack helps a lot with that. And on the other hand he steals alot of artifact ;). I actualy didn't change alot from my last list I posted in this thread till now, except that i play a Fire // Ice instead of the Forked bolt and trying out other options to replace Bonfire Of The Damned, currently its Fire Covenant. The Tasigur in the sideboard is not a bad option I think, should be tested.

I've been toying around with this deck for a bit recently, since it looks very interesting, and is quite fun to play. I'm surprised that you're such a big fan of dack fayden though. Pretty much every time I've gotten to cast him, he's been underwhelming, since he unfortunately is just straight up card disadvantage, and a 3 mana investment into a planeswalker that doesn't do THAT much for a little while, while also being unable to protect himself seems kinda weak. I'd love to hear what you have to say about him.

Then I've also found that the deck can struggle a bit with certain creatures that are either too big for bolt, like goyf or tasigur, but manageable. Mostly though, a resolved true name nemesis in game 1 seems almost unbeatable in my experience, but maybe I'm missing something?

Pellenik
02-28-2015, 07:24 AM
I play the deck more or less daily on MODO and enjoy it alot, it's very flexiable both in gameplay and in manner of cardchoices, still tinkering with the list fram day to day.

1. Dack Fayden - the first card I cut from the rough spiler (together with Notion Thief if we go back really far..). Notion, and to a lesser extent Dack should probably be viewed as a result of the Treasure Cruise fused meta we had when the deck surfaced, I don't see either of them having a place anymore. I could not see myself playing Careful Study/Faithless in the deck and even less so a 3mana Careful :/ Which leaves the "steal an artifact" ability, since this is not vintage that should never really come up or matter. I guess the argument to be had is for equipments then..? Peronally I'd rather focus on them not getting their equipments into play if possible.
He might be the stone cold nuts though, but looks somewhere between *meh* and awful on paper, but I'd love to hear from those of you who've tested him and had positive evaluations.

2. Tasigur - is the main reason I think this deck went from "fringe" to playable/good. I started out on TNN but soon changed once I've got a chance to try out Tasigur. cheap threat and cardengine all in one card, doesn't get much better then that :)

@ TNN problem, the goal is obv not to let him hit the table on the opposing side, if he does you have the choise of innocent blood (if u include it, or deluge perhaps..?) or go wide with pyrod00d. If you're ready esstablished pyro and is ahead that shouldn't be a issue..

Drizzy
03-01-2015, 01:29 PM
I played following list on paper tournament a week ago:


10x Fetch
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp

4x Young Pyromancer
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Snapcaster Mage

4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Dig Through Time
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Innocent Blood
1x Counterspell


0-2 Burn - Got crushed by drawing 9 lands in both games
2-0 12-Post / Turbo Eldrazi
2-1 Tin Fins
2-0 Dark Maverick

Jace felt pretty useless in these match ups, mostly getting pitched to FoW. The deck relies a lot in permission after landing a hopefully early threat so it's pretty risky trying to tapout on turn 4 or afterwards. The deck has shown up in dailies a lot recently so I think it's really going to be a thing, it makes a good use of both Tasigur and DTT. Also I've done some play testing against BUG, Affinity and D&T.

I loved the 2-2 split between Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. Quite many of the problematic cards are 2cc: Tarmogoyf, Hymn, SFM, Price of Progress, Eidolon of Great Revel, combo enablers such as Infernal Tutor, Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance etc. and it's really nice to have a cheap hardcounter especially on the draw. Cabal Therapy was MVP, especially when combined with YP and/or Gitaxian Probe.

I'm going to drop the Jace at least from the main deck. I've seen some of the decks in dailies play TNN, but i'd rather have instant speed threat like Clique due to nature of the deck. I'm also going to drop the basic swamp, it has lost me one game and won none so far.

Lightless
03-08-2015, 06:01 PM
So I played in a local tournament again.

31 Players, 5 Rounds, cut to top 8... split in the finals :laugh:

Here's the list I played

//PW
2 Dack Fayden

//Creatures
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
4 Young Pyromancer

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Unearth
1 Fire Covenant
1 Fire // Ice
1 Murderous Cut
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

//Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb


1st Round Vs Miracles 2-0

2nd Round Vs Death'n Taxes 2-1

3rd Round Vs Aluren 2-1

There was a raffle with a foil fetch from KTK... I won :tongue:

4th & 5th Round draw I knew both players and so we all went Top 8

Top 8 Vs Shardless BUG 2-0

Top 4 Vs Aluren (Same Guy) 2-1

Final Vs UWR-Golddigger (Schönegger's list) Draw, we play in the same playgroup and we split the prices. I take home a Bayou + 35€ + a foil geman Windswept Heath

I will add more comments tommorow... pretty tired today :wink:

Chaam
03-09-2015, 10:50 AM
What do you guys think of taking a Vintage like approach and having just pyromancer as the wincon?

Creatures (5)
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sorceries (16)
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Preordain
2 Innocent Blood

Instants (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (18)
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dack Fayden
1 Baleful Strix
1 Smash to Smithereens

Undomian
03-09-2015, 12:38 PM
What do you guys think of taking a Vintage like approach and having just pyromancer as the wincon?


That concept really only works in Vintage because Vintage decks generally play very, very few removal spells.

cheerios
03-10-2015, 05:08 AM
I wouldn't remove the Snapcaster Mages

hobart
03-16-2015, 01:05 PM
Split finals in a 4 round FNM with this list:

Creatures: 9

4x Young Pyromancer
1x Baleful Strix
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Spells: 32

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of will
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Forked Bolt
3x Dig Through Time
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell
1x Terminate

Planeswalkers: 2

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dack Fayden

Lands: 17

3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Volcanic Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Island

Sideboard: 15

2x Pyroblast
1x Sudden Demise
1x Forked bolt
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Flusterstorm
1x Submerge
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Duress

1-2 vs Burn: close games, able to race with pyro and countermagic, but burn has inevitability.
2-0 vs UR Twin: his deck has maindeck bloodmoons and chalices, so that's scary, but the rest of the deck is just bad I think.
2-0 vs DDFT: pretty slow combo deck, weak to my pyro's and cabal therapies backed up with countermagic.
2-1 vs Maverick: close games, but if I'm able to stabilize on mana to go over the top of thalia my DTT's and planeswalkers get me there.

2-1 in Top 4 vs Imperial Painter: Game 1 I fight off bloodmoon and some combo pieces but end up losing to topdeck grindstone. Game 2 and 3 he gets bad draws and I'm able to therapy out, counter, or smash to smithereens anything else relevant and win.
Split finals vs Miracles: I actually like my matchup vs Miracles, but I am scared of counterbalance and I'm tired so we just split the cash.

The list was solid. I like having more than 4 one-mana removal spells to deal with DRS, I like the silver bullets with DTT, I like the plethora of counter magic and a splash of discard vs combo. The Tasigurs were great. One mana threats in a deck like this are insane. He's not great against white decks but hey that's what sideboards are for.

Drizzy
03-16-2015, 06:07 PM
3-1 in LGS, trying out Deathrites:


4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Young Pyromancer
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
2x Dig Through Time
1x Terminate

4x Scalding Tarn
4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Wasteland

SB
2x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
2x Perish
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Smelt
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pithing Needle


2-1 ANT
2-1 Death and Taxes
0-2 Burn
2-0 Affinity

So far in 3 tournaments, playing a bit different lists my only losses are against burn and elves. The deck simply refuses to function at all against burn, even though it should be a fair matchup.

somethingdotdotdot
03-21-2015, 05:48 AM
I've been playing around with deck a fair bit lately since casting 4+ dtt's (snap->dtt isn't even out of the question with this deck) is just too much fun. However, I feel like the deck is pretty much cold to burn--they're just too fast for a deck that consistently hits themselves for 2 with a cantrip (pre board ofc). To remedy this, I added the countertop package postboard and its been working well enough to at least give me a shot to beat burn g2/3. This is the list I'm at (bit unorthodox as it's more control):

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Creatures (11)
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Spells(40)
4 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
3 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 2 Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 Counterbalance

I'm thinking of changing the tasigur to tombstalker (thoughts on this?) since a 5/5 flying is a bit more relevant in most of the matchups I want him anyways. The sideboard jitte can potentially become another top to make the countertop strategy more reliable. Countertop goes in versus all of the faster matchups where the life loss from therapy/probe is just too much (RUG, burn, etc) or versus combo/miracles where the bolts/forked's are only going to the dome.

LordOMJ
04-04-2015, 12:56 AM
I'm coming back around to the deck after a hiatus playing Miracles, Storm, and D&T. Trying to evaluate which / how many supplemental removal spells (in addition to the obvious 4x Lighting Bolt) the deck wants. Options I'm considering include: Forked Bolt, Murderous Cut, Ghastly Demise, Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood, Terminate, Dreadbore, Smother, Go for the Throat, Snuff Out, and Dismember. I'm inclined to shy away from Murderous Cut and Ghastly Demise so my removal spells' effectiveness doesn't fluctuate. For those that have been running a singleton copy of either, how've you found they interact with SCM, DTT, and Tasigur? Forked Bolt is a great meta call against D&T or Elves, but I don't think I would run more than 1 main because I'd like my supplemental removal to answer things that bolt can't. Snuff Out and Dismember are capable of dealing with Tarmogoyf, but with 4x probe and 9 fetches, I'm hesitant to bleed myself more than I need to. Similar to Forked Bolt, I could see myself running up to one copy of either but not more. Like the thread, I've gone back and forth about edict effects vs. targeted removal. It comes down to whether you're more concerned about TNN and it's ilk or things like Goyf. I think targeted removal is better in my local meta, but with the broad metas of SCG Opens and GPs approaching, I'm not decided yet. What I do know is that I'd run Diabolic Edict over Innocent Blood - it's a much stronger effect with multiple TNN in my list and potentially represents an out to Marit Lage. It's also better against Reanimator or Sneak & Show. I don't think Dreadbore has enough upside to make up for being a sorcery - Forked Bolt at least represents a 2-1 possibility and Lightning Bolt / pyromancer tokens already give us a plan to pressure Jace and Liliana. Terminate does its job as targeted removal and doesn't ask questions, but the mana cost is more restrictive than other options. I haven't seen much discussion of Go for the Throat or Smother so far in the thread, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I think Smother loses points for not dealing with Tasigur and anything from a deck that tries to cheat out creatures or go over the top. I don't think Go For The Throat's lack of "can't be regenerated" clause will come up that often, and outside of the MUD matchup kills almost everything that terminate does for a less restrictive color requirement. ATM, I'm thinking 1x Forked Bolt and 2 more that will be Go For The Throat and/or Diabolic Edict. That said, I wouldn't have written all my thoughts out if I wasn't interested in what you folks thought too.

tl;dr I have lots of thoughts about non-lighting bolt removal. IMO the best options are a meta-dependent split of Forked Bolt, Go For The Throat, and Diabolic Edict. What's your opinion?

somethingdotdotdot
04-04-2015, 06:41 AM
I've been playing this deck a lot at my FNM's and have been just loving how hilariously greedy the deck is. I've been toying around with the supplemental removal as well, since a quick goyf with disruption can spell doom for the deck. Of the supplemental removal you've listed, I would lean more towards terminate. The non-artifact clause on go for the throat really isn't too restrictive, but I do find myself killing artifact creatures with terminate a non trivial amount of the time (revoker and inkmoth being the two most popular). The more restrictive cost isn't a huge issue since I need access to black and red mana by turn 2 anyways (I cut the island because it was allowing wasteland to color screw me a lot more easily).

I also have to say that I've really been digging (pun intended) a singleton EE. Since the deck sees so many cards, at some point you'll have that EE with a good amount of mana to work with (4-5) and it can just blow some games wide open, especially in the death and taxes matchup. There have been more than one occasion where they have a board of 2 drops--thalia, sfm, jitte, and avenger all at once--and a single ee just completely obliterates their board position. It also helps deal with SoFaI, which is usually game over if it comes down.

rubblekill
04-12-2015, 05:24 AM
Hello grixis mages, I'm new to this deck but I love it already.

I have a simple question for you guys: it seems that this deck does not usually play DRS. Why is that?
It ramps, gives us the right mana if needed, can win the game with its black mana ability and obviously is a nice creature to have when facing a dredge/reanimator/any gy deck in general.

Cons: it "forces" us to play a green source, and that's weird and greedy; it stops us to play a variety of spells, since with DRS we have 4 less slots to play with.

What are your opinions on DRS? I'm genuinely curious. Thanks in advance for answering

JosephK
04-12-2015, 07:33 AM
Deathrite Shaman is a midrange tool that makes our deck active earlier (T2-4) but doesn t provide control over the game (except from the gy part, which is often not relevant). It s also a poor top deck and forces green. But it s playable (should be played) if you want to go midrange with tasigur, jace (if you don't intend to kill with jace, which is the case here, jace becomes a midrange card), more beatdown and removals, etc.

rubblekill
04-12-2015, 07:47 AM
Deathrite Shaman is a midrange tool that makes our deck active earlier (T2-4) but doesn t provide control over the game (except from the gy part, which is often not relevant). It s also a poor top deck and forces green. But it s playable (should be played) if you want to go midrange with tasigur, jace (if you don't intend to kill with jace, which is the case here, jace becomes a midrange card), more beatdown and removals, etc.

Thank you for replying good sir.

I do not want to go full midrange, infact I do not want to play PWs here. I don't even like Tasigur in the deck to be honest because of Karakas and because I don't like his ability; I don't find Dack particularly exciting in legacy.
Unearth is just cute and fun, but imho is not strong enough (I don't even play TNN here). Strixes are here because a goyf can be annoying for this deck, and because I like the value.


At the moment I'm goldfishing the following list. Thoughts?

http://i.imgur.com/a8vyxSn.png

EDIT: I know, I know: fire covenant and recoil. But I just love to play them because of nostalgia! :D

JosephK
04-12-2015, 08:17 PM
Sorry, we re not there to talk about random lists but to discuss theoretical points or analyse lists that proved to be worth it.
You have to build your own list from the discussion.

On this point, you should scroll back to read the part about the sideboard. Not everything was said but it should lead you to some changes.
(With that said, Null Rod + Tormod (<<spellbomb) is not good because of the storm mu. Fire, electrickery, smelt are bad. Double Rod ?
MD spellpierce is maybe ok in the midrange version, not in the control one, where 4 dig is compulsory. Badlands is not good (dig cspell). Then you have to think about preordain, basic lands)

rubblekill
04-13-2015, 02:03 PM
Sorry, we re not there to talk about random lists but to discuss theoretical points or analyse lists that proved to be worth it.
You have to build your own list from the discussion.

On this point, you should scroll back to read the part about the sideboard. Not everything was said but it should lead you to some changes.
(With that said, Null Rod + Tormod (<<spellbomb) is not good because of the storm mu. Fire, electrickery, smelt are bad. Double Rod ?
MD spellpierce is maybe ok in the midrange version, not in the control one, where 4 dig is compulsory. Badlands is not good (dig cspell). Then you have to think about preordain, basic lands)

Uh, sorry.
I was just excited to play this deck because I'm getting it on MODO. I'll play test this a lot and then report it here.
What about Dack? Is it a must have in this deck?

JosephK
04-14-2015, 07:57 PM
Sorry for the harsh tone, wasn't intended :).

About Dack, it s a planeswalker that does solve a problem : the resolved jitte (not much else for the md). But it depends how you build your deck. If you want to go reactive after your cabal turns, then he's fine at finding your counterspells (if he resolves on a clear board, it s gg). If you want to go proactive, then Liliana (solves the tnn/fatty problem) might be a better choice (md recoil is fine here).

Should we go reactive or proactive ? That's another question.

LordOMJ
04-17-2015, 10:13 AM
I've been playing this deck a lot at my FNM's and have been just loving how hilariously greedy the deck is. I've been toying around with the supplemental removal as well, since a quick goyf with disruption can spell doom for the deck. Of the supplemental removal you've listed, I would lean more towards terminate. The non-artifact clause on go for the throat really isn't too restrictive, but I do find myself killing artifact creatures with terminate a non trivial amount of the time (revoker and inkmoth being the two most popular). The more restrictive cost isn't a huge issue since I need access to black and red mana by turn 2 anyways (I cut the island because it was allowing wasteland to color screw me a lot more easily).

I also have to say that I've really been digging (pun intended) a singleton EE. Since the deck sees so many cards, at some point you'll have that EE with a good amount of mana to work with (4-5) and it can just blow some games wide open, especially in the death and taxes matchup. There have been more than one occasion where they have a board of 2 drops--thalia, sfm, jitte, and avenger all at once--and a single ee just completely obliterates their board position. It also helps deal with SoFaI, which is usually game over if it comes down.

I've been going with a 1/1/1 split of Forked Bolt, Diabolic Edict, and Terminate for my testing at local events over the past week. Ran into a few issues where Terminate's mana cost was an issue. I tend to agree with your insight that basic island is THE main reason under our control this would happen. That's how it happened for me, but I stood by that line because my hand couldn't afford to lead with a dual on the draw against a deck with delver in play and the possibility of wasteland in hand. It's pushing me to reconsider my manabase, but I still think that GFTT's more flexible cost and low drawback makes it the right choice. I'll at the very least plan to test that change going forward.

As far as manabases go, I've see lots of folks adopting an approach with 3 basics, 3 of each dual, and some configuration of fetches to match your land choice. I gravitated in that direction originally because 2 island to cast TNN or Jace through blood moon and an unwastelandable red source had appeal. I'm finding that the second island isn't worth the hedge for blood moon matchups, and limits the deck's flexibility in other scenarios. Probably going to turn it into a 4th volc, once I can pick one up. Not sure how I feel about the basic mountain - I've had at least one situation where I've been unable to cantrip and DTT in the same turn with 3 lands out, and that feels bad. Cruise era lists often ran the mountain as an 18th land in SB, but I'm not sure how I feel about that plan.

Rocco111
04-17-2015, 10:43 AM
Hi there,

I am looking through the different pages and lists andI can't keep thinking "what about playing bouncers like Vapor snag or Void snare?"

m2c

LordOMJ
04-17-2015, 11:30 AM
Hi there,

I am looking through the different pages and lists andI can't keep thinking "what about playing bouncers like Vapor snag or Void snare?"

m2c

If we're trying to play the control game, running temporary answers ends up being card disadvantage and going against our gameplan. DTT makes up for that somewhat, but not enough to justify their inclusion. There's been some discussion of bounce effects in sideboard, but typically things like Echoing Truth or Recoil as they are also ways to deal with problematic non-creature permanents that can get around CoTV or have less card disadvantage implications.

rubblekill
04-17-2015, 01:22 PM
If we're trying to play the control game, running temporary answers ends up being card disadvantage and going against our gameplan. DTT makes up for that somewhat, but not enough to justify their inclusion. There's been some discussion of bounce effects in sideboard, but typically things like Echoing Truth or Recoil as they are also ways to deal with problematic non-creature permanents that can get around CoTV or have less card disadvantage implications.

I agree with you. Personally I have abandoned recoil and moved the bounce spell in the sideboard. I have chosen wipe away because the discard effect is just cute. I think we want split second vs. counterbalance/a reanimated grieselbrand.

Now for the removal spells/sweeper. Lately I've been playing (and liking a LOT so far) a more controlling version of the deck. I used to play 1 ghastly demise (which I have personally found awesome all the time) and 1 forked bolt, but now I replaced these cards for additional counterspells. Now I run 4 forces 2 counterspells 2 spell snares 1 pyroblast in the main. If I'm playing a creature deck I have a pretty decent sideboard that can replace some if not most of the counters: 1 sudden demise 1 perish 1 dread of night, and I find these cards enough if you consider we run 4 bolts main.

This more controlling version I'm testing doesn't run thought scour (a really bad card imo, that even make us weaker to gy hate), no Tasigur (not a good creature imo: make us weak to Karakas, eats our graveyard and his ability is mostly irrelevant most of the time) only 3 cabal therapies, a Jace and a Dack.
NOTHING is better than dropping a turn 3 pyromancer and riding it to victory countering everything the opponent casts. On MODO I've just destroyed Omnitell with that strategy on game 2 (G1 I didn't have the time to beat him with creatures so I found an opening for a Jace after a big counter war and fatesealed him into oblivion).

"Should we go reactive or proactive ? That's another question." Honestly, I don't know if I'm overloading with all these counters, I'll test more and report here, but for now I'm enjoying the reactive path a lot.

Lightless
04-19-2015, 01:11 PM
Won another 4 Round tournament with the deck. Don't want to post my list again, it's on the 5th page.

1st Round: Esper-Thopter 2-0
2nd Round: Aggro Loam 2-0
3rd Round: TES 2-0
4th Round: Nic-fit 2-0

I just want to show some love for 2 cards that I feel don't get the praise they deserve.

Tasigur, the golden fang is a beast. He's a good beatdown creature and if the game does go long, wich actually should be the plan with a control style of deck, the lands accumulate anyway making his ability a cardadvantage-factory. The argument that he is weak to Karakas is true, so are other creatures but I only play him as a 1-off anyway. Young Pyromancer is weak against Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Fire // Ice and more... do you doubt we should play him as well?

Dack Fayden is another card I think most people her undervalue. Like with Tasigur agreed there are match ups in which he isn't good, but there are more in which he is a machine. Filtering your draws and filling up your graveyard is awesome in a deck like ours, in which many delve spells + Snapcaster mage + Cabal Therapy are played. The Graveyard is just another form of ressource for us. And if you find yourself in the position to steal something with his - just do it. Even if you cannot use the full potential of the artifact you just stole, neither can your opponent. I took Aether Vials or Expedition maps and other artifacts that are useless for our plan, but it's a -1 card for your opponent and if you steal a sword or jitte that feels just filthy.

rubblekill
04-19-2015, 01:31 PM
Won another 4 Round tournament with the deck. Don't want to post my list again, it's on the 5th page.

1st Round: Esper-Thopter 2-0
2nd Round: Aggro Loam 2-0
3rd Round: TES 2-0
4th Round: Nic-fit 2-0

I just want to show some love for 2 cards that I feel don't get the praise they deserve.

Tasigur, the golden fang is a beast. He's a good beatdown creature and if the game does go long, wich actually should be the plan with a control style of deck, the lands accumulate anyway making his ability a cardadvantage-factory. The argument that he is weak to Karakas is true, so are other creatures but I only play him as a 1-off anyway. Young Pyromancer is weak against Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Fire // Ice and more... do you doubt we should play him as well?

Dack Fayden is another card I think most people her undervalue. Like with Tasigur agreed there are match ups in which he isn't good, but there are more in which he is a machine. Filtering your draws and filling up your graveyard is awesome in a deck like ours, in which many delve spells + Snapcaster mage + Cabal Therapy are played. The Graveyard is just another form of ressource for us. And if you find yourself in the position to steal something with his - just do it. Even if you cannot use the full potential of the artifact you just stole, neither can your opponent. I took Aether Vials or Expedition maps and other artifacts that are useless for our plan, but it's a -1 card for your opponent and if you steal a sword or jitte that feels just filthy.

I haven't tried Tasigur yet, but I think I'll run a TNN instead.
Since I'm still trying to find the sweet spot for the deck I'm playing with 1 Dack 1 Jace. Jace, sigh, has won me games that would have been unwinnable without him; Dack wasn't EXCEPTIONALLY great but still good overall. I'll keep this 1-1 split for now.

Are you still playing unearth? Have you casted it with great results?


E: Just stole a game on MODO vs Tezzerator. Useless to say Dack (and Jace) won me the game.

Lightless
04-19-2015, 02:23 PM
I haven't tried Tasigur yet, but I think I'll run a TNN instead.

Are you still playing unearth? Have you casted it with great results?

TNN suffers from the same problem the other creatures in the deck do, 1 toughness. Your opponent will board zealous or golgari charm to fight your tokens and that will hit your TNN as well... Just try out Tasigur a little, I don't think you will be disapointed.

Regarding unearth. Yeah still playing that card and it can give you the edge in some matches. Reusing a Baleful strix is awesome against Decks that run tarmogoyf. And you can make some insane plays with snapcaster... And it never sits useless in your hand, because of the cycling.

rubblekill
04-19-2015, 02:28 PM
TNN suffers from the same problem the other creatures in the deck do, 1 toughness. Your opponent will board zealous or golgari charm to fight your tokens and that will hit your TNN as well... Just try out Tasigur a little, I don't think you will be disapointed.

Regarding unearth. Yeah still playing that card and it can give you the edge in some matches. Reusing a Baleful strix is awesome against Decks that run tarmogoyf. And you can make some insane plays with snapcaster... And it never sits useless in your hand, because of the cycling.

Ok, I'll try it.

You don't run reanimate bacause of the cycle ability?

Lightless
04-19-2015, 03:06 PM
You don't run reanimate bacause of the cycle ability?

I don't like the additional damage, most times our cratures are the most usefull anyway and yeah the cycle is an added bonus.

Jizz
04-21-2015, 03:18 AM
Ended up 29th at GP Kyoto with the 4 preordain build. Thank you to JosephK and Medvedev for helping me with the list. Here it is :

1 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [C13] Baleful Strix
1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [C13] True-Name Nemesis
4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
1 [CNS] Dack Fayden
3 [7E] Counterspell
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
SB: 1 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [RTR] Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [ZEN] Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 [JOU] Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm

R3. Bant Omnishow 2-1
R4. Rug 2-1
R5. Jund 2-0
R6. Elves 2-0
R7. Esperblade 1-2
R8. MonoU Omnishow 2-0
R9. Rug 2-0
R10. MUD 2-0
R11. Merfolk 2-1
R12. Storm 1-2
R13. Rug Omnishow 2-1
R14. Ur Omnishow 0-2
R15. Storm 2-1

I was the last 12-3, 29th.

rubblekill
04-21-2015, 06:24 AM
Ended up 29th at GP Kyoto with the 4 preordain build. Thank you to JosephK and Medvedev for helping me with the list. Here it is :

1 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [C13] Baleful Strix
1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [C13] True-Name Nemesis
4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
1 [CNS] Dack Fayden
3 [7E] Counterspell
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
SB: 1 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [RTR] Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [ZEN] Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 [JOU] Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm

R3. Bant Omnishow 2-1
R4. Rug 2-1
R5. Jund 2-0
R6. Elves 2-0
R7. Esperblade 1-2
R8. MonoU Omnishow 2-0
R9. Rug 2-0
R10. MUD 2-0
R11. Merfolk 2-1
R12. Storm 1-2
R13. Rug Omnishow 2-1
R14. Ur Omnishow 0-2
R15. Storm 2-1

I was the last 12-3, 29th.

Congratulations for the result.
So you chose to lean less on snapcaster, and run a more reliable list with less fun ofs. Is it a meta call or you do think that this is a better list than the previous one? To me no blasts main seems odd considering the Japanese combo heavy meta, but it worked well for you.

Quasim0ff
04-21-2015, 06:47 AM
Ended up 29th at GP Kyoto with the 4 preordain build. Thank you to JosephK and Medvedev for helping me with the list. Here it is :

1 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [C13] Baleful Strix
1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [C13] True-Name Nemesis
4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
1 [CNS] Dack Fayden
3 [7E] Counterspell
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
SB: 1 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [RTR] Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [ZEN] Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 [JOU] Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm

R3. Bant Omnishow 2-1
R4. Rug 2-1
R5. Jund 2-0
R6. Elves 2-0
R7. Esperblade 1-2
R8. MonoU Omnishow 2-0
R9. Rug 2-0
R10. MUD 2-0
R11. Merfolk 2-1
R12. Storm 1-2
R13. Rug Omnishow 2-1
R14. Ur Omnishow 0-2
R15. Storm 2-1

I was the last 12-3, 29th.
Bant Omnitell, RUG Omnitell?

What are those?

Narcind
04-23-2015, 09:59 AM
Whenever I've played this deck recently, I've splashed 3 abrupt decays off a bayou and a tropical island, because I just don't see a way to win through counterbalance. Has anyone else tried this, and if so, what do you think about it?

Lightless
04-23-2015, 12:05 PM
It's not easy to win under a resolved counterbalance but doable, you got to play inteligent.
You need Pyroblast andd spells to bait flipps. Otherwise Recoil, Wipe Away, or other bouncespells are usefull.

Splashing for Abrupt decay might help you in this matchup, but the mana base of the deck is allready shaky enough, adding another color is a tad to much for me.

rubblekill
04-24-2015, 09:11 AM
My current list (I have just noticed that the picture has been cut: I run 4 bolts and 1 pyroblast main, I'm too lazy to take another picture)

http://i.imgur.com/m8m0CSn.jpg

I dropped Dack because, for me, he hasn't been that fundamental to my strategy.

Jace, instead, won me a lot of games. I'm trying to figure out if 1 is the right number, or if we want 2 of him. Do you people think 2 is overkill?

I have plenty of counterspells. Spell snare in particular has been an all star for me: the meta is filled with miracles and UWR variants: it hits counterbalances, counterspells, stoneforges, pyromancers and goyfs.

I have replaced a strix for a TNN: it is an extra win con and walls goyfs as well.

I have cut grafdigger's cage in the sb and replaced it with extra creature hate (marsh casualties + dread of night; I tried massacre but didn't like it because it hits our tokens and TNN as well).

The only card that I'm not very sure about is innocent blood, I mean it's good vs. decks that run a single threat (aka Grieselbrand, Emrakul or w/e) but I feel like there are a lot of tokens around, and innocent blood is not good against

them: what do you think I can replace it with?

I do still think that in my configuration Tasigur is just not worth it: since I don't use thought scours I want to use my gy only to fuel digs.

Ruckusmh
05-02-2015, 05:58 AM
I have to say I'm a little baffled this isn't receiving more love - I've been playing the list from SCG Cleveland on MODO for the last week and loving it. Outside of maybe Omni, it definitely feels like the best DTT deck and even though it rarely finds you anything broken it enables a lot of lines of play.

Especially, I love the way that it allows you to find 1 or 2 ofs out of the sideboard in a longer game, Blood Moon is a house at times but it's obviously not great in multiples. Seems to have really good game against Miracles, although they are very grindy. Ultimately they have a lot more dead cards, Bolt can often kill Jace outright, and you are running more Digs and more cantrips.

Anyone who's thinking about giving it a shot, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

btm10
05-03-2015, 01:17 PM
I have to say I'm a little baffled this isn't receiving more love - I've been playing the list from SCG Cleveland on MODO for the last week and loving it. Outside of maybe Omni, it definitely feels like the best DTT deck and even though it rarely finds you anything broken it enables a lot of lines of play.

Especially, I love the way that it allows you to find 1 or 2 ofs out of the sideboard in a longer game, Blood Moon is a house at times but it's obviously not great in multiples. Seems to have really good game against Miracles, although they are very grindy. Ultimately they have a lot more dead cards, Bolt can often kill Jace outright, and you are running more Digs and more cantrips.

Anyone who's thinking about giving it a shot, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I agree. I've also beaten Chalice at one multiple times. The only downside against Miracles is that you have to hope your game 1 hand has enough countermagic to stop Counterbalance. Once you're rolling Dig makes sure you can stop it, but turn 2 CB/Top on the draw is a massive pain to deal with.

I'm not sure why I see lists running either zero basics or the 2 Island/1 Mountain split. I feel like 2 Island/1 Swamp (or if you're running Tombstalker, 2 Swamp) is where we want to be to support Blood Moon, and Moon is insane in some of our toughest matchups.

lilevo
05-10-2015, 05:26 PM
I have been trying to play grixis control since the GP NJ last year but never saw a list that really caught my attention until the one from the Cleveland IQ http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/283115#online

I played the deck twice last week on my stream I was able to go 3-1 on the first daily with the deck after making some bad punts in the first match. After the first daily I noticed that Goyfs and goose can be a problem and I decided to swap the recoil for perish but I am going to try Toxic Deluge next week. In the first daily I got paired against Joe Lossett lost game one but I had a good plan for the games post SB and I was able to win I think the most important thing is not let them get the CB+top combo so if you have a pyroblast in hand always leave a R mana up to counter CB.

In the second daily I ended up going 2-2 and I can honestly say that it was a mix of limited knowledge of the deck and some terrible draws in rounds 2 and 4, in the last game of round 4 I had all red cards in hand but no volcanic in play :(

fluuu
05-12-2015, 05:51 PM
Any update for the list? I also play Jason Smith list

maharis
05-13-2015, 09:26 PM
I played a version of this deck the other night without planeswalkers and with Wasteland and Hymn. I don't have the exact list -- I went 2-2 losing to Esper Stoneblade and Omnitell and beating Reanimator and Solidarity. Omni was a bummer to lose to, I just didn't mulligan well. Anyway... Just a couple questions.

--Has Fire/Ice been tested? I played Forked Bolt in my deck because I saw a decent amount of Elves/D&T in the room, but I don't think a 2 mana version that also pitches to force and taps down Boseiju is the worst. I felt my blue count for Force was kind of low anyway but I had some weird draws.

--I felt like I had trouble establishing a clock in my matchups... Could Deathrite be a consideration as well in order to present a threat or accelerate into YP & token early?

--what about Liliana of the Veil in this deck?

lilevo
05-15-2015, 02:19 PM
@fluuu, So I played the deck in a few daily events, and I think that marsh casualties should be in the board, the only time I can think perish or deluge are better is vs RUG Delver but I almost never play against it online anymore.

Also last night I played the version that plays more cantrips and no thought scours, I saw a few lists on mtggoldfish including one that Lejay played to a 4-0 record, the deck seemed better without the planeswalkers ( I really like jace and Dack) and to my surprise the main deck echoing truth is very good. here is the list I played last night and finished 3-1 http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/287171#online

@maharis I think you should try the Delver version if you are going to be playing Hymns and wastelands.

fluuu
05-15-2015, 08:02 PM
@fluuu, So I played the deck in a few daily events, and I think that marsh casualties should be in the board, the only time I can think perish or deluge are better is vs RUG Delver but I almost never play against it online anymore.

Also last night I played the version that plays more cantrips and no thought scours, I saw a few lists on mtggoldfish including one that Lejay played to a 4-0 record, the deck seemed better without the planeswalkers ( I really like jace and Dack) and to my surprise the main deck echoing truth is very good. here is the list I played last night and finished 3-1 http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/287171#online

@maharis I think you should try the Delver version if you are going to be playing Hymns and wastelands.

Why do u think the list is better without Dack Fayden? Ive tried it and ive liked it a lot.

lilevo
05-17-2015, 11:54 AM
Honestly I think Dack just doesn't do enough, I could be wrong or maybe you play the deck in a different way, but in my opinion I rather have another cantrip or just some other silver bullet (preferably something that can be flashed back with Snap Caster). I played the grixis deck before TC got banned and maybe in that version Dack Fayden was better since you wanted to filter through your deck this version is fine without it.

Narcind
05-17-2015, 05:01 PM
I've not been very impressed by Dack either, it never feels like he really does anything that could warrant spending 3 mana on him, UNLESS you're playing vs a deck where his -2 is relevant, so maybe he should be in the sideboard, rather than the main?

fluuu
05-17-2015, 05:08 PM
I like the way Dack filters, also the way it fulls the grave so I can easily cast DTT, Tasigur, the retrospective of cabal therapy or even food for snapcaster. I played vs elves last day and I got owned easy and fast.
Sorry for my bad english.

lilevo
05-17-2015, 10:36 PM
So it looks like someone finished 10th at the last Super IQ

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84956

His list is very similar to the one I posted last week which I will just call Lejay's list, it doesn't have the Zuran Orb in the board which I agree, orb seems weak, he instead played a Jace. What I don't like about his list is a lack of win condition the other lists all play snap caster/young pyromancer and Tasigur and/or TNN and I think that's the correct route. The mana base with 2 island and 1 swamp would be good with 2 blood moons in the board but there is a chance that card availability was a factor.

Looooooooo
05-18-2015, 04:07 AM
So it looks like someone finished 10th at the last Super IQ

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84956

His list is very similar to the one I posted last week which I will just call Lejay's list, it doesn't have the Zuran Orb in the board which I agree, orb seems weak, he instead played a Jace. What I don't like about his list is a lack of win condition the other lists all play snap caster/young pyromancer and Tasigur and/or TNN and I think that's the correct route. The mana base with 2 island and 1 swamp would be good with 2 blood moons in the board but there is a chance that card availability was a factor.

The lack of win-con is a problem in my opinion, if i want to go in the YP-only route i would play at least one JTMS main just as an emergency plan.

- L

lilevo
05-18-2015, 01:59 PM
Jace is a good option but TNN and Tasigur are also cards to consider. The fact that you can cast a 4/5 for only one black mana is huge in this deck.

fluuu
05-18-2015, 05:20 PM
Would u preffer ponder over though scour?

lilevo
05-18-2015, 06:50 PM
After playing both versions I have to say that I like the 4x ponder, preordain, brainstorm version better.

valar
05-19-2015, 02:31 AM
So it looks like someone finished 10th at the last Super IQ

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84956

His list is very similar to the one I posted last week which I will just call Lejay's list, it doesn't have the Zuran Orb in the board which I agree, orb seems weak, he instead played a Jace. What I don't like about his list is a lack of win condition the other lists all play snap caster/young pyromancer and Tasigur and/or TNN and I think that's the correct route. The mana base with 2 island and 1 swamp would be good with 2 blood moons in the board but there is a chance that card availability was a factor.

That was me. I've been playing the deck for about 2 months. I've never had to seriously worry about not having a way to win the game. Its a non-issue. TNN is very possibly better than the second snapcaster mage. I wouldn't play a second blood moon. I didn't play with tasigur very long, but he has some very real weaknessess I didn't like. I loved the sideboard. I'm not sold on echoing truth being the correct card for that slot, but I think its definitely fine. I've grown out of love with Dack Fayden the more I play.

fluuu
05-19-2015, 05:17 AM
That was me. I've been playing the deck for about 2 months. I've never had to seriously worry about not having a way to win the game. Its a non-issue. TNN is very possibly better than the second snapcaster mage. I wouldn't play a second blood moon. I didn't play with tasigur very long, but he has some very real weaknessess I didn't like. I loved the sideboard. I'm not sold on echoing truth being the correct card for that slot, but I think its definitely fine. I've grown out of love with Dack Fayden the more I play.
So u dont playa witj tasgur... What about gurmarg? +1\0, not karakas affected

lilevo
05-20-2015, 05:52 PM
I think those could be decided either by your style of play and meta, I am currently leaning towards playing TNN, when I had Tasigur in the deck I almost never got to activate his ability and when I did I got a cantrip back lol at least TNN+ lightning bolt can be a fast clock.

fluuu
05-21-2015, 07:19 AM
I think those could be decided either by your style of play and meta, I am currently leaning towards playing TNN, when I had Tasigur in the deck I almost never got to activate his ability and when I did I got a cantrip back lol at least TNN+ lightning bolt can be a fast clock.
Yws...but this is control. If u like this playstyle maybe u should play uwr delver of variantes.

Narcind
05-21-2015, 07:55 AM
Yws...but this is control. If u like this playstyle maybe u should play uwr delver of variantes.

That really depends on the matchup though. Against some decks, like miracles and high tide, you have to put a clock on them, because if it goes too late, eventually they can just win the game without you being able to do too much.

valar
05-21-2015, 12:31 PM
That really depends on the matchup though. Against some decks, like miracles and high tide, you have to put a clock on them, because if it goes too late, eventually they can just win the game without you being able to do too much.

This really depends on which version of the deck you are playing. I'm definitely down to play the control role against either of those decks.

GoblinZ
05-21-2015, 12:34 PM
Hi all, I am considering playing this deck recently, but could anyone do me a favor telling me the match-up against shardless bug, blade and miracle?

fluuu
05-21-2015, 05:01 PM
Went 3-1 in a shop tour with grixis control (this list http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16834&iddeck=126134). Win pox, GW delver, Miracles and lost vs mentor miracles.

lilevo
05-22-2015, 11:34 AM
So I was finally able to go 4-0 in a daily event last night after going 3-1 a bunch of times with Grixis.

Here is the video http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal/v/5301841

Speaking about the matches last night I think TNN wasn't good but if I had played against more creature decks and Miracles I would probably say TNN is good.

The Atog Lord
05-23-2015, 12:35 AM
Some friends told me there was a fairly active discussion happening around this deck. I wanted to join in and talk a bit about it. As far as I know, I was the person who made the current Dig Through Time version of this deck. It's based on Eli Kassis's Treasure Cruise deck. Here's how it happened. After Cruise was restricted, it became increasingly clear that Dig Through Time was the best engine to utilize in Legacy. And Eli's shell seemed like a great way to do that. The Pyromancer and Therapy synergy provided a way to disrupt other decks for very little mana. And chaining cantrips has synergy with Pyromancer as well. Plus, those cantrips work well with Dig Through Time. It all works together. I was doing quite well in legacy FNM's with the deck. Chris Stagno and Eli Kassis have put work into the deck. But I think there is still even more work to be done. It's not finalized yet -- not that these sort of decks are ever finalized.

The current builds I have been seeing often involve the full set of Preordains. It makes the deck run smoother, but it also makes the deck more vulnerable to Chalice and Counterbalance. I'm figuring out if that is a worthwhile trade-off. On the other hand, the Planeswalkers -- Dack and Jace -- are very good against Miracles. The build that uses two or three Planeswalkers is fairly good against Miracles, but is clunkier against aggressive decks. Red Delver and Burn remain difficult. So, I am currently testing that sixteen-cantrip build. I am not sure who came up with that design, but it is interesting.

How have you guys liked the large set of cantrips? I just split Legacy FNM with that build, and the Echoing Truth was great. Props to whomever came up with that unexpected piece of technology. I'll need more testing before I'm comfortable letting go of Dack Fayden in the main, however.

JosephK
05-23-2015, 04:38 AM
If you want names, the first who came with the 4 Preordain build is Medvedev (and maybe the whole Dig Through Time build, at the same time as others - but Eli "declared" that dig would replace TC just after the ban). The first who played Etruth was Jizz and the first who Maindecked it is Lejay.

The Preordain build is more combo oriented, about finding cabal/probe/(yp) as fast as possible. It's not clear that this version is more vulnerable to chalice/cb. What if you find cabal-probe/force/pyroblast 1 turn earlier, instead of drawing clunky removal spells ? It's about testing : how many cantrips do i need to find my answers in a timely fashion.

SirTylerGalt
05-23-2015, 01:53 PM
I like this deck because it lets me finally play Thought Scour with discard in a shell that makes sense:

- Me: Cabal Therapy
- Opp: Brainstorm in response, put two best cards on top
- Me: Thought Scour opp
- Me: use the info gained from milling the top two cards to deduce what is still in opp's hand (in case I saw it earlier with a Probe), and name that with Therapy

Thought Scour is also pretty useful to mill the top card revealed by Delver when you don't like it, but I guess that's not the right shell for this ;)

Lans89
05-28-2015, 03:07 AM
So, when will this thread me moved to Established Decks :P?

JDK
05-31-2015, 11:48 AM
Last Friday I tried something different from my usual choice of deck (Storm & Delver):

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Thought Scour

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Young Pyromancer

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Darkblast
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Deathmark
1 Electrickery
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
3 Pyroblast


Went 4-0 (Round 4 opponent conceded, but my Elves MU shouldn't be bad anyway), MU were 2x Mentor Miracles, 1x Punishing NicFit and 1x Elves.

It was pretty much just a "make Grixis Delver more control-ish" approach and I wanted to try cute things like the Isochron Scepter (which was really nice). The deck needs more refinement (Null Rod + Explosives is so-so, as is Massacre, considering I play a bunch of creatures) though, but I had much fun playing it, despite the MUs. ^^

btm10
05-31-2015, 12:28 PM
The current builds I have been seeing often involve the full set of Preordains. It makes the deck run smoother, but it also makes the deck more vulnerable to Chalice and Counterbalance. I'm figuring out if that is a worthwhile trade-off. On the other hand, the Planeswalkers -- Dack and Jace -- are very good against Miracles. The build that uses two or three Planeswalkers is fairly good against Miracles, but is clunkier against aggressive decks. Red Delver and Burn remain difficult. So, I am currently testing that sixteen-cantrip build. I am not sure who came up with that design, but it is interesting.

How have you guys liked the large set of cantrips? I just split Legacy FNM with that build, and the Echoing Truth was great. Props to whomever came up with that unexpected piece of technology. I'll need more testing before I'm comfortable letting go of Dack Fayden in the main, however.

I've played the deck off-and-on since seeing Kassis' GPNJ list and have been on the Preordain train since Cruise was banned; while running the full sixteen cantrips does make the deck more vulnerable to Chalice, I've found that adding a Shattering Spree in the board (in addition to Echoing Truth and Rakdos Charm) helps that problem a lot. I think Echoing Truth was something that was discovered by several people at the same time; people were testing it in BUG Delver sideboards back in September/October, at least in Cleveland, as an out to Entreat that pulled double duty against permanents with CMC>3.

SirTylerGalt
05-31-2015, 04:11 PM
Andrea Mengucci streaming Grixis Control:
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-grixis-control/

CutthroatCasual
06-01-2015, 02:47 AM
Welcome to DTB. Be prepared for all the hate people will now bring against you. Whether or not your deck can keep up will determine whether or not it belongs among these esteemed archetypes.

JDK
06-01-2015, 06:38 PM
Andrea Mengucci streaming Grixis Control:
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-grixis-control/

Never heard of him before, but his boarding makes me puke...

JosephK
06-01-2015, 08:57 PM
Never heard of him before, but his boarding makes me puke...

Please explain yourself. Apart from the blood moon in the Rug Mu, which can be understandable otp since he plays so many removals for goyf, I find it quite good. He also kept Forces and didn't bring reb vs the 4 color shardless mu, which may be weird (postboard, only vision and bs are likely to be hit - they have bbe instead of jace).

btm10
06-02-2015, 01:28 AM
Welcome to DTB. Be prepared for all the hate people will now bring against you. Whether or not your deck can keep up will determine whether or not it belongs among these esteemed archetypes.

I'm pretty sure people were bringing in hate already. It's not like the cards that are good against Grixis (REBs, mass -X/-1 effects, and, to a lesser extent, graveyard hate) are bad sideboard options to begin with.

sporenfrosch1411
06-04-2015, 10:38 AM
@ lilevo Your Grixis video is unwatchable. Calling someone on skype, having the chat sounds on and then you can even hear that guy eating.... cant watch that :D

Lightless
06-05-2015, 07:03 AM
Hi, we got a little legacy-league going on and on tuesday i played grixis control again.
The tournament was 4 Rounds and I went 3-0-1, we were 12 players.

I playd the following list.

//PW
1 Dack Fayden

//Creatures
1 Tasigur, the golden fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
4 Young Pyromancer

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Fire // Ice
1 Murderous Cut
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

//Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Recoil
1 Tasigur, the golden fang

Round 1 Vs Shardless-BUG

Round 2 Vs BUG-controll

Round 3 Vs Omni-Show

Round 4 Vs Manaless Dredge

//edit will add some more informations later

HSCK
06-10-2015, 07:04 AM
Two Grixis decks did well last weekend at the PIQ. Rich Shay's 17 land version with 4 Preordain and Coval's 18 land version with a slightly bigger game plan. I really like having 2 TNN and 2 Walkers so far.

Waikiki
06-11-2015, 05:17 AM
How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies? I'm having huge problems with a resolved goyf in combination with mana denial pressure.

HSCK
06-12-2015, 09:24 PM
Did a few matches today, be patient and prioritize Pyromancer

Ice1590
06-14-2015, 04:17 PM
Hi all! i take this list from a mate and now i'm testing it, i think is really solid and strong. any advice?


4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Innocent Blood
3 Standstill
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
2 DTT
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: ??

CutthroatCasual
06-14-2015, 05:54 PM
Anyone try a single Kolaghan's Command? I feel like if you can get Miracles into top-deck mode, even with a live Top, once they draw a Terminus you can force them to discard at instant speed before the Miracle trigger resolves.

btm10
06-14-2015, 09:13 PM
Anyone try a single Kolaghan's Command? I feel like if you can get Miracles into top-deck mode, even with a live Top, once they draw a Terminus you can force them to discard at instant speed before the Miracle trigger resolves.

I've run it as a 1-of. It's solid in that capacity, but I dump it with Brainstorm/Preordain as often as I search it out.

The Atog Lord
06-15-2015, 10:40 AM
"How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies?"

That is the question, isn't it? This deck is very good against Omni Show and strong against Miracles. There are strategies, such as Lands, which are difficult in the first game, but which are addressed via the sideboard.

The weakness of this deck, however, is Delver. BUG Delver is the easiest variant to handle, and that is even at best. The versions of Delver with lightning bolt are much more difficult.

At the SCG in Columbus, my record in the swiss was 7-1-1. The draw was to RUG Delver and the loss was to Grixis Delver (losing the the eventual winner). In the top eight, I lost to Grixis Delver. I'm still thinking about how best to address the Delver matchup.

The build I played had a greedy manabase, but was nearly a two-color deck. It used Black only for casting Cabal Therapy itself. Otherwise, the deck was just a blue-red control deck. And yes, play it as a control deck and not a tempo deck, despite the Gro-inspired manabase.

The real threat out of Delver are the creatures. They can be too fast and too well-defended. And the Grixis delver deck in particular is designed to be resilient to removal.

Against RUG Delver, I have been thinking that Edict effects are strong; Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict are very interesting options. Of course, the mean introducing Black as a main color again, but that isn't the end of the world.

Things are more difficult against Grixis Delver. Edict effects get much worse against Young Pyromancer. Targeted removal doesn't do anything against True Name Nemesis. And cards like Marsh Casualties are embarrassing against everyone's favorite Zombie Fish. It isn't an easy problem to solve.

JosephK
06-15-2015, 05:13 PM
"How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies?"

That is the question, isn't it? This deck is very good against Omni Show and strong against Miracles. There are strategies, such as Lands, which are difficult in the first game, but which are addressed via the sideboard.

...

Things are more difficult against Grixis Delver. Edict effects get much worse against Young Pyromancer. Targeted removal doesn't do anything against True Name Nemesis. And cards like Marsh Casualties are embarrassing against everyone's favorite Zombie Fish. It isn't an easy problem to solve.

I agree completely. A list with 4 ponder 3+ preordain, obviously, looses tempo early to cast cantrips. Maindeck Snare is actually a very good one off. Maindeck Etruth is also not bad in these MUs. Maindeck Gurmag/Tasigur is also better than Tnn in that consideration. I think that a diverse sideboard, packed with one offs is the way to go. One offs like :
. Hydroblast - very good against yp and against every urX delver strat anyway
. Edict - Goyf Delver Gurmag tnn and goose solo, I'm talking about Iblood that costs 1, not about diabolic edict.
. Etruth - Goyf Gurmag delver
. Marsh - resolved yp tnn

The one other thing to consider is nexus in the infect MU. The sideboard has to take it into account, be it murderous cut, rakdos charm, needle or blood moon.

So these answers have to have a very low cmc because YP will handle the situation when it comes to late game. YP protected means the MU is won.

Another way to do it is to keep some number of forces or change your list so that it can handle basics. But this can actually be worse.



Waikiki
How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies? I'm having huge problems with a resolved goyf in combination with mana denial pressure.

Tarmogoyf + Wasteland is almost gamebreaking. We can't play around daze at that point. You need Dig + bolt if he didn't play sorceries^^ (bolt goyf then cast dig, wether he has daze or not).

GodsAreShining
06-16-2015, 02:10 AM
I really like the list without pyromancer why no one talk about it? XD

Inviato dal mio ALE-L21 utilizzando Tapatalk

FANAttIC
06-16-2015, 03:58 AM
Link to list?

Zulabnar
06-16-2015, 04:03 AM
i took this list for testing:


1 tombstalker
2 snapcaster mage
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

Instants [20]
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt


Sorceries [8]
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Lands [18]
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

and went against a good fish player with UR monastery (so a very similar deckbuild with stifle and monastery and full set of dig)

the result was 2-2 on mainboard 2-3 sidein

All matches was very close, and wasteland more than once wins the game


My opinion is that snapcaster is too slow in this deck, 3 mana open are too much and flashbacking a bolt is normally the option. Aniway in this matchup is a 2x1 situation.
Tombstalker is enormous but BB in cc is too difficult to cast, i will try the zombiefish next
DRS are simply not so powerful, ok you eat graveyard, fix mana, and i win a match for a 2 life point gain, but i don't know if is the right choice. Monastery Swiftspear is a very nice card to consider in rush.

At the moment the manabase is very poor, DRS sometimes fix it but at turn one sometimes i prefer ponder/brainstorm/delver

The very question is the side, against delver decks i should love something lyke pyroclasm or maybe a bigger creature like goyf. Also snare works well but are 1 x 1

Maybe in green there is something that could help?

Quasim0ff
06-16-2015, 04:28 AM
i took this list for testing:


1 tombstalker
2 snapcaster mage
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

Instants [20]
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt


Sorceries [8]
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Lands [18]
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

and went against a good fish player with UR monastery (so a very similar deckbuild with stifle and monastery and full set of dig)

the result was 2-2 on mainboard 2-3 sidein

All matches was very close, and wasteland more than once wins the game


My opinion is that snapcaster is too slow in this deck, 3 mana open are too much and flashbacking a bolt is normally the option. Aniway in this matchup is a 2x1 situation.
Tombstalker is enormous but BB in cc is too difficult to cast, i will try the zombiefish next
DRS are simply not so powerful, ok you eat graveyard, fix mana, and i win a match for a 2 life point gain, but i don't know if is the right choice. Monastery Swiftspear is a very nice card to consider in rush.

At the moment the manabase is very poor, DRS sometimes fix it but at turn one sometimes i prefer ponder/brainstorm/delver

The very question is the side, against delver decks i should love something lyke pyroclasm or maybe a bigger creature like goyf. Also snare works well but are 1 x 1

Maybe in green there is something that could help?
This isn't the correct thread. This is grixis Control. What you're looking for is Grixis Delver.

Also, the Pyromancer-free Standstill list belongs in the Standstill thread....

Zulabnar
06-16-2015, 09:33 AM
This isn't the correct thread. This is grixis Control. What you're looking for is Grixis Delver.

It does not exist, so i choose this one, even because it sounds strange to me that a first place in SCG tournament deck was not in Decks To Beat forum section.

H
06-16-2015, 09:58 AM
Grixis Tempo AKA Grixis Delver (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26388-Grixis-Tempo)

Grixis Landstill (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29241-Grixstill-Landstill-UBR)

Both have been in New and Developmental for a good while. If you want to see them in Established, write a Primer.

Jo11ygrnreefer
06-16-2015, 10:47 PM
Congrats on the bump to DTB guys!

HSCK
06-18-2015, 10:08 AM
I've really enjoyed playing this deck so far, saw a version on Modo with 17 lands but a full 16 cantrips, has anyone else tested it?

ironclad8690
06-18-2015, 11:42 PM
Grixis Tempo AKA Grixis Delver (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26388-Grixis-Tempo)

Grixis Landstill (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29241-Grixstill-Landstill-UBR)

Both have been in New and Developmental for a good while. If you want to see them in Established, write a Primer.

To be fair, the website that we receive our data from lists Grixis Delver as Grixis Pyromancer, so neither is truly a DTB unless you count the Swiftspear/Delver versions and the Snapcaster/Dack/TNN versions as the same deck. Should we still try to keep the discussions separate despite the categorization of tcdecks?

Example: Brett Schmuckler's deck from Columbus 5k listed as Grixis Pyromancer:


Creatures [13]
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer

Instants [19]
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [11]
1 Forked Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder


Lands [17]
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sudden Demise
1 Thoughtseize

H
06-19-2015, 07:17 AM
I don't play this deck, so I don't have much of an opinion, but frankly, if a deck has Delvers and Dazes, I would call it Tempo.

HSCK
06-19-2015, 09:09 AM
To be fair, the website that we receive our data from lists Grixis Delver as Grixis Pyromancer, so neither is truly a DTB unless you count the Swiftspear/Delver versions and the Snapcaster/Dack/TNN versions as the same deck. Should we still try to keep the discussions separate despite the categorization of tcdecks?

Example: Brett Schmuckler's deck from Columbus 5k listed as Grixis Pyromancer:


Creatures [13]
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer

Instants [19]
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [11]
1 Forked Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder


Lands [17]
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sudden Demise
1 Thoughtseize


To be fair, no one here is going to work on Delver variants when they have their own thread while this thread is definitely where people are packing Counterspell instead of bugs.

maharis
06-19-2015, 10:57 AM
I took this for a spin on Monday. I had been playing a Delver version, but I felt like it was too reactive with Pyromancer and I really wanted to play a basic Island in a deck with Wastelands, as I felt it gave me the best matchups against the common decks at my store: Omni, D&T, and MUD. (And Enchantress, but I dodged that this week.) The Island helps against the mana-denial decks, while the Wastelands were crucial to beating cards like Port and Boseiju.

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dig Through Time
1 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tropical Island

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
1 Dread of Night
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Dimir Charm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Plague


Beat Jund Depths 2-1 in round 1, he couldn't stick a Liliana or Smallpox to kill True-Name game 1, comboed turn 3 in game 2 and in game 3 I extracted his Loams on turn 2.

Beat Omni 2-1 in round 2. Game 1 he had a hand clogged with Cunning Wishes, eventually felt like he had to use them, grabbed pact of negation to counter something I did, and forgot to pay. Game 2 I shredded his hand with Therapy and rode Pyro and buddies to victory.

Lost to Deadguy Ale 0-2 in round 3. He had it all in a way I never do when I play DGA. Win die roll, Scrubland into Deathrite into Waste-Stoneforge into Bob that flips fetchlands into Tasigur. Game 2, I have to mull to 5 (7 had no lands, 6 had trop-volc-4 cards with B in the cost) and he even Vindicated my land. I wasn't even mad.

Beat Miracles 2-0 in round 4. Standard miracles match, didn't let him resolve a Counterbalance until he was on 9 and I double-bolted him and Fired him with CB on the stack, then he had to scoop.

I'm a fan of this deck, but it seems really soft to anything non-blue other than, like, Elves or maybe Dredge. I can see why it's a good choice for an SCG.

Tropical Island is a total trap, though. Would rather have another basic. Maybe board the Trop to cast Grudge postboard or nuke creatures with DRS when that's relevant, but I think I would rather have Badlands more often (which also allows Hymn to Tourach).

Whitefaces
06-19-2015, 11:24 AM
Tropical Island is a total trap, though. Would rather have another basic. Maybe board the Trop to cast Grudge postboard or nuke creatures with DRS when that's relevant, but I think I would rather have Badlands more often (which also allows Hymn to Tourach).

I've felt the same while playing the deck...then you're paired vs Reanimator.

Kael
06-19-2015, 05:52 PM
Cobbled together a list for our Thursday night Legacy, just for the hell of it.


4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur
1 True Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Dig Through Time
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pyroblast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

SB was an assortment of stuff I pulled out of my box last minute, something like:

2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Forked Bolt
1 Electrickery
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Murderous Cut
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Fire Covenant

Despite the deck being a complete pile, it worked out decently, and was a lot of fun. I only lost to DnT, which was probably due to the sideboard basically having no answer to equipment. 3 basics helped a lot, and Staticaster did a surprising amount of work, but the 2 games I lost were to Therapying the Batterskull he tutored up and not being able to flashback to hit the Sword he drew naturally.

I'll definitely be picking the deck up here and there, especially on the weeks where the local meta is 50% Miracles.

How do you guys like the Strixes in the deck? I don't own any, nor have I ever played it in a tournament, so I don't have much of a feel for the card.

Lightless
06-20-2015, 08:31 AM
//PW
1 Dack Fayden

//Creatures
1 Tasigur, the golden fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
4 Young Pyromancer

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Fire // Ice
1 Murderous Cut
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

//Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Recoil
1 Tasigur, the golden fang


Sooo we had a legacy FNM in our local store an I did come to this event with grixis again.
I just swaped out the fire // ice for the 4th Dig and thats the list I was playing then.

1st Round Death'n Taxes

Was actually a lot of fun. The games where not one sided at all but I managed to grab his jitte with Dack in game 1, resulting in a pretty severe beating.
Game 2 Pithing Needle locked his Aether vial and Massacre killed 3 of his early creatures.

1-0

2nd Round VS Mud(12-Post Variant)

In both games I mulled to 6 to get a chance at force but didn't see any at all, so sadly he was able to resolve Chalice on 1 in both games.
The first game was pretty close nontheless. I got a young Pyro turn 2 and produced 5 Tokens beefore suiciding him into a metal worker.
I was able to counter his only big Creature a Wurmcoil and started to reduce his life total.
Sadly one turn before i was able to finish him he resolved Platinum Emperion
Game 2 was onesided even though he made some big mistakes I was not even close to wining.

1-1

3rd Round VS ANT

We know each other verry well, so the game was rather casual in terms of tight plays.
Game 1 he made a grave mistake.

He allready made his landdrop this turn and cast an ad nauseam, no mana up no cards in hand...
He flipped cards over counting were like 4 rituals, a petal, gitaxian probe, an infernal Tutor and two lands. He stopped and to be honest I thought I was dead.
He started chaining petal and rituals and I was thinking...

*okay okay now he casts infernal searching for Tendrils and I'm... wait...*
"Hey can I see your hand again?"
He shows m gitaxian Probe 2 lands and infernal. Like I said we know each other verry well.
"How do you plan to search anything up with that tutor when you got 2 lands in hand?"

game 2 went rather one sided again i drew enough control cards to have his combo in check and an early pyromancer provided enough pressure

2-1

4th Round VS Pox

Another Player I knew rather well. And I was fully aware of this beeing a favorable matchup for me in the past, sadly he played 2 night of soul's betrayal in his mainboard this time.
Again game 1 force didn't show up and he resolved one turn 2. Not a good start for me. So i started chaining cantrips to find tasigur or dack fayden to mill him out.
I found dack, but he had a cursed scroll on board and a mishra's factory, so milling him out was not an option. I took his cursed scroll hoping to hit his factory.
But he didn't attack the vunerable dack but rather me. He attacked him not a single time. He got a nether void on the board when dack went ultimate so i was pretty happy with pointing a lightning bolt at the factory only to let it be countered. And from there on it spiraled downwards for him.

Game 2 was not that exciting but i got him with tasigur and 2 strixes.


So I went 3-1 only loosing to the winner of the FNM, I was rather happy with my prformance that evening.

I will tune the sideboard a little bit, before I will pilot this deck in Lille.

@Kael: I'm a pretty huge fan of Baleful Strix. When resolving he allways gets a 2 for 1 because of the card drawn. He blocks all the big guys profitably.. looking at you tarmogoyf. And because of the value he creats resolving, it's okay to sac him for therapy.

ironclad8690
06-20-2015, 10:31 AM
If only you could have drawn Dack Fayden against the mud player XD

kingtk3
06-22-2015, 10:32 AM
What are the deck's worst matchups, cards and situations to face?
I'm in the mood of trying a new deck and since the OP does not state it well I would like to know more of this decks weaknesses.

Thanks!

maharis
06-22-2015, 11:25 AM
What are the deck's worst matchups, cards and situations to face?
I'm in the mood of trying a new deck and since the OP does not state it well I would like to know more of this decks weaknesses.

Thanks!

This deck is very good against the top dogs of the format currently, which are Omni and Miracles. Ample countermagic, hand disruption, and a fairly heavy clock are good against these somewhat durdly decks.

It has a fair matchup against most other popular blue-based decks. In fair matchups, this is mostly due to the ability to Bolt annoying creatures like Delver and Stoneforge and stonewall Tarmogoyf with Pyromancer tokens. (Cabal Therapy is also a beating for Stoneforge decks.) In other combo matchups, like Storm, discard + countermagic + clock works well.

This deck is bad, however, against non-blue, threat-dense decks with mana denial. Death and Taxes in particular is the most brutal popular matchup. I have also head my head caved in by Deadguy Ale and MUD. When you are running 14-16 cards that do nothing but draw other cards, and are trying to stick them through Wastelands and pressure from bears, life gets really ugly fast. Aether Vial is a nightmare, and godspeed if they're running a Moon effect. I currently run one Dread of Night in my sideboard and I'm considering adding a second and/or a Sulfur Elemental.

The only non-blue matchup I've had success in is one of the more all-in Dark Depths decks, but I run Surgical in the sideboard and DRS main. That's a unique deck in that it doesn't present Chalice or an early clock, and unless they have natural Marit Lage there are lots of places you can stop them (hit their loams with counter-DRS, Wasteland on board, countering Crop Rotation). That deck isn't very popular at the moment though.

If I was going to play in an average competitive Legacy metagame:
-4 out of 5 decks I'll play are blue
-2 of those 4 are Miracles or some sort of combo

I would take this deck. Shredding their hand with Cabal Therapy is fun, Lightning Bolt is always live, we get to dig through time a ton. Hell, my local meta has a lot of non-blue decks, but I still bring this deck because I don't have time to build another right now and the practice is good. Sideboard should really be centered around beating D&T and variants though. Teferi's Response might honestly not be the worst.

kingtk3
06-22-2015, 12:00 PM
Thank you for the answer. Going deeply on the bad matchups analisys, how is the BUG-shardless matchup? What are their most threatning cards?

maharis
06-22-2015, 02:26 PM
Thank you for the answer. Going deeply on the bad matchups analisys, how is the BUG-shardless matchup? What are their most threatning cards?

I haven't played it, but I imagine we are somewhat behind. Briefly, I think our goal is:

-Get off to a fast start
-Don't let them have an active Deathrite
-Therapy as much as possible to prevent them from dropping bombs
-Try to win before they resolve Ancestral Visions

The one advantage we do have is that we are strong vs. Abrupt Decay.

Perish seems like an important card postboard, as it's a way to reclaim card advantage. Extra blasts hit Visions nicely, also Jace. I like playing charms so Dimir Charm would come in as extra DRS killing/counters Visions/Deluge/Pulse/Hymn. It's probably a close matchup.

Cards we don't want to see: DRS, Jace, Hymn (though that seems less popular at the moment), and probably Shardless Agent, since it's just always value and occasionally a blowout.

Arianrhod
06-22-2015, 05:17 PM
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
1 Echoing Truth

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Keranos, God of Storms

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Mountain

//sb
1 Negate
1 Electrickery
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Swamp
1 Slaughter Games
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Batterskull
1 Perish
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fire Covenant
1 Terminate
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm

Testing this tonight. I've been on this deck for a couple of locals and a ~30-person daytrip, all of which have gone various degrees of me learning how not to have basic forest in my deck (the other nic fit players in this thread will likely appreciate this, which I see there are quite a few of us here).

Still definitely trying things out and learning what works, what doesn't work, and what problems the deck has that need attention with the available slots. I'll have some more in depth thoughts upon my return tonight.

Arianrhod
06-22-2015, 11:07 PM
Took first, but it was a 3-rounder and I had a round one bye, so not exactly hard. Lots of people were either sick from the weekend's pptq plague or on vacation. Oh well.

Regardless, I will present some thoughts partially to write them out for my own benefit and partially to try to incite some discussion in this thread, because it seems pretty quiet in here (although, I am used to the nic fit thread, which moves quickly).

Card by card analysis:

Young Pyro:

Mid-level threat and value engine. Opponents have been very scared of this card, and I'm not -entirely- sure that is correct to the extent of the reactions I have seen. Sure, it can snowball a game. I beat Death and Taxes tonight through triple Mother of Runes by going double Pyromancer into spells -> zerg you. These games seem uncommon. More often she makes a couple bros and passes beyond the veil. I consider Pyro to be a mid-level bomb, in that I do not expect to win games with her, but I do expect her to suck up opposing removal options, constrict their lines of play, and leave behind a little value.

Snapcaster:

I sometimes want more Snaps, but that is usually a symptom of using a spell poorly in my experience. If I need another Echoing Truth, it's probably because I used the first one incorrectly. I think two is a good number for this guy, but I do want to test him as a 1-of at some point because I have noticed that he clogs sometimes, depending on my hand and the board state (usually mana related).

Baleful Strix:

This card has been an all-star for me in a lot of decks since its printing, and when looking through lists I saw that Eric English was running a pair, so I gave them a spin. They are no less impressive here. I've had issues dealing with large threats, like Goyfs or Tasigurs, and Strix is very effective at solving this problem while also providing you with another cantrip. He's also not an unreasonable body for Cabal Therapy flashbacks, which is something I ran into problems with in my earlier builds. I would want to flashback a Therapy, but I wouldn't have anything laying around to do it with.

Cantrip shell (Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe):

Nothing to say here, really. Probe hurts a LOT and I frequently shave one or two when sideboarding, but I've realized that no matter how much pain it can cause, siding them all out is never correct because of the deck's low land count. The cantrip part of that card is very important, and it may come to pass that as I gain experience with this deck I will end up not even shaving it and just trying to play around the life loss as best I can.

Dig Through Time:

I am very unsure of how many copies of this card is correct. I've seen anywhere from two to four. I thought and still kind of think that 4 is a little bit much, but I'm also not on the Dack Fayden that might help with that plan. I've been fairly happy with 3 -- worst case I can always pitch one to Force, and they do come online surprisingly quickly. I could try the 4th copy out, but someone would have to sell me on it.

Removal Suite (Bolts, Terminate, Truth):

Bolts are bolts, nothing to say there.

Terminate was a response to my issues with dealing with opposing large creatures. Bouncing into Therapy via Jace or Truth is an option, but I wanted a hard removal spell. I originally tried out a pair of Terminates, but decided after testing and a local that the second copy was a little much maindeck since there are enough decks in the format that just don't run / care about creatures right now. At the same time, I don't think it is something you can reasonably skimp on because Angler, Goyf, Tasigur, etc -- or even just a random utility dork that needs to go away. I play my version a little more control than most builds I've seen have tended, so I favor this slot.

I do not run Murderous Cut because I don't want to counteract my other delve cards // my snapcasters, and I don't want to lose to any random spontaneous graveyard hate like a maindeck Nihil Spellbomb or some such. I would rather run a sure thing at 2 mana than a chance at 1 but equal chance at 5.

The Echoing Truth was adopted after seeing Rich Shay rave about it. I could see the tempo gains of resetting a delve creatures as an obvious application, but the card actually has a lot more utility than something as obvious as that -- the aforementioned bounce->therapy comes to mind, and is a good way of solving problem enchantments that can otherwise be a major problem.

Jace:

People seem very divided on Jace. I presume much of this is mana cost related, but I personally can't see going back under two copies. I started with 0, then moved to a 1-1 split with Dack, then decided I really just wanted another Jace, and put him in. I haven't looked back. He clunks sometimes in some of the aggressive matchups or the mana denial matchups, but in anything where your mana is not being screwed with he's just fantastic -- and sometimes even then, if the game goes grindy, which this deck has a tendency to encourage by virtue of its 1-for-1 nature.

I mean, he's Jace. He's a wincon, he's a backup card advantage engine, he's hard removal with Cabal Therapy or tempo without. Sometimes he resets a Snapcaster or gives a Strix vigilance while cantripping. He's a swiss army knife in this deck more than most, and I firmly endorse two copies in this style of deck (tempoier builds need not protest).

Jitte:

I still don't like it. I didn't like it when it was in my deck initially, and I didn't like it after giving the card another try tonight. Jitte is very good at parity, same as Tasigur. It's not good if you're either winning or losing, and this deck feels like it's -always- either winning or losing. I can't say that I've had more than a tiny handful of situations where it's felt like I'm at parity with my opponent and needed something to break it. This is probably the next change that I make. Even with the extra bodies in the deck, it just has not impressed me after multiple chances.

Keranos:

I freely admit that I come from // partially popularized Nic Fit, and this has left me something of a tendency to run eccentric / expensive cards. This is just something I'm saddled with.

However, Keranos.

I partially based my original list off of Brian Coval's SCG list, since Coval is a good friend of mine whose opinion I trust, and Coval's list was the slightly bigger version with True Names. I quickly realized upon jamming some games, though, that True Name is kind of awkward. It died to most of the hate that my opponents were boarding for Young Pyros anyway, and while it was never worse than average, it was rarely better for me. Some of this might have been because I was playtesting a lot against Miracles and Death and taxes, or it might have been because of how my personal playstyle / low experience level was piloting the deck. Regardless of the reason, I felt the card wasn't getting the job done that the slots were given to it for.

This is a hard control deck, in my opinion, and I play it as such. In that style of deck, I want a win condition, Morphling-style. I want something that comes down, and gets the job done. Something super hard to deal with verging on impossible when backed with counters -- the difficulty of removal mattering more to me than the speed of the clock. I was reticent to go higher than 5 mana, but I'd hard cast enough Forces to feel that 5 was okay. Keranos was being sideboarded in a couple of lists that I'd seen already anyway, so I made the decision to move him maindeck, and he's been great. Knowing that he's in the deck somewhere, and that I have the draw power to find him lategame when I want him, allows me to craft boards such that my other win conditions can be more expendable and I can accrue more utility and value from them as a result. I can afford to jam a tempo Pyromancer on turn 3 with a Ponder to gain initiative and dictate the pace of the game, because I don't NEED that Pyro to win the game with later. I can afford to Brainstorm with Jace or use him for removal/tempo rather than just jamming him as a win condition.

Lands:

18 lands, as befitting my bigger / controllier style. I was originally running a Swamp maindeck over the Mountain, but got chastised recently by Coval on that, so I made the swap and it's been better for sure. I experimented with going to 19 lands, but definitely felt that was a little too many. I do sometimes (in some matchups) feel like 18 is a little light, however, so I'm sideboarding a Swamp as a 18.5th land for the matchups where I want it, in addition to helping me dodge Blood Moon/Back to Basics/Choke. I like being able to cast my spells, and coming from Nic Fit, did not realize just how many people aim hate at blue mana bases, outside of the Waste/Stifle plan that everyone has to deal with. I've periodically considered running a mise Wasteland either main or side to deal with problematic lands that sometime arise, but I've not been able to bring myself to spend the slot on it.

Sideboard:

15 one ofs for the moment. I like singleton sideboards with overlapping utility in this style of deck. A couple things might end up getting bumped up over time as I become more accustomed to the deck and engage in more dialogue over it, but for now, I'm just trying things and seeing what I like / don't like.

I'm sure the Ashiok is raising a lot of eyebrows, but in truth I really want to maindeck it, it's been so good. It has ripped apart so many matchups just by coming down. It's a strong clock against something like Miracles, it provides extra bodies in matchups like DnT where that can matter, it is VERY good against green decks, and the opponent generally has to spend a sizable amount of resources on her in order to effectively deal with her, especially if she's been around for a turn or two. I can't adequately say enough good things about this card, but I acknowledge that you probably just have to experience it to understand, since she looks pretty awful on paper.

Tasigur is in the sideboard for my build, and I think I like him there. He hasn't impressed me in this style of deck nearly as much as he has in the more Delver oriented decks, where he's pressure alongside a grind advantage / parity breaker. There's a lot of Karakas in the format at the moment, as well. He does, however, earn a sideboard slot as an effective non-red, non-blue win condition who dodges all X elemental blast effects that are incredibly commonplace right now. Keranos is not -quite- as reliable postboard due to the blast effects, and I frequently dedicate a sideboard slot or two to bombs to go over the top of other fair decks. For this purpose, Tasigur has been fantastic -- but I did not like him maindeck at all.

I think most of the rest of the sideboard mostly speaks for itself, although it does also change on a per-event basis -- one of the wonders of singleton sideboards is their raw flexibility, which is emphasized even harder by virtue of the card selection in this deck.

I will also note in closing that I am not on the Blood Moon plan that many lists are on. I believe most of the reason for these Blood Moons is for Lands, as a targeted nuke. While I can appreciate the sentiment, I do not believe that it is worth trying to fix that matchup, and am content just throwing it whenever I run into it in order to shore up my other matchups across the board. I would rather run versatile cards with narrow modes, such as Rakdos Charm or Nihil Spellbomb -- things that splash on to Lands, sure, but aren't -only- good against that deck.

The only real matchup content that I have to mention is that I feel pretty comfortable against Death and Taxes. I might want like one more option in my sideboard just to feel certain, but overall I don't think I've lost to DnT yet. My area has a long history of DnT players, though, so I might just have more experience in that matchup in general -- I don't know. I can see on paper how the matchup -should- be bad, but it just never plays out that way.

Anyway, looking forward to starting some dialogue here.

Lans89
06-23-2015, 03:43 AM
I haven't played it, but I imagine we are somewhat behind. Briefly, I think our goal is:

Visions/Deluge/Pulse/Hymn. It's probably a close matchup.

Cards we don't want to see: DRS, Jace, Hymn (though that seems less popular at the moment), and probably Shardless Agent, since it's just always value and occasionally a blowout.

Don't forget the Golgari Charms =(

maharis
06-23-2015, 03:36 PM
Testing this tonight. I've been on this deck for a couple of locals and a ~30-person daytrip, all of which have gone various degrees of me learning how not to have basic forest in my deck (the other nic fit players in this thread will likely appreciate this, which I see there are quite a few of us here).

Cabal Therapy is a demanding mistress!

I ran this deck to a 3-1 finish last night: 2-0 UR painter, 2-1 Imperial Taxes, 0-2 UR Omnitell, 2-1 TES

Painter: budget build, so I don't want to go too into detail. He shocked himself both games and I have Lightning Bolt and Deathrite Shaman in my deck.

Imperial Taxes: same player I had lost to a few weeks ago that led me to deem the matchup unwinnable. At the time I was playing a Delver version with Tasigur and no DRS. Having Gurmag Angler (no Karakas issues) and Deathrite Shaman to produce extra mana, especially against this version with fetchlands, makes it a lot easier. He beat me game 1, but I took both post-board games, shredding his hand game 2 with probe-therapy and getting both Null Rod and Dread of Night down in game 3.

Omnitell: I still think we are heavily favored despite my result. Lost game 1 when I had a nice hand of FOW, Brainstorm, Therapy, Bolt, Waste, 2 fetches. He probed me turn 1, played island-preordain. I therapied, blind-named S&T and hit. He would've had the combo in hand if not. He cantripped his turn 2, I played a fetchland and cast brainstorm, looking for more blue cards to pitch and some supplementary action. I found three lands. Uh oh. I fetched and passed repping pyroblast/spell pierce, he cantripped and passed to me, and I drew.... wasteland. Ugh. The worst. I drew another land and a deathrite shaman, tried to flashback therapy which got double-pierced, then he went for S&T and I brought Tropical Island to class.

In game 2, I extracted his Burning Wishes and Scalding Tarns off a Snapcaster, but couldn't find any countermagic despite boarding in a lot of it and died meekly when he topped S&T. When I probe-therapied his Wish, his hand was Strand, 2 tarn, 2 omni, some nothing card. So it might not have been right to just take his tarns for no reason, since it didn't mana-screw him, but I wanted to get him on a clock, and Snapcaster was my only option at the time. Plus I figured it made Brainstorm worse. I dunno. Tough match. I was a little tilted from my shitstorm in game 1 and starting to fade a bit (2 young kids have me up and going at 5 every day and this round was at about 9:30), so that might have influenced my decision making.

TES: I know he's probably playing storm and keep a decent 7 with DRS, snapcaster, spell snare, ponder, leading on DRS. He mulls to 6 and does land go. My turn I ponder and pass. He duresses my spell snare and passes. I snap-ponder and I think I'm dead if he has it but he ad nauseums himself to death.

Game 2 I didn't get to take a turn. Storm, amirite?

Game 3 I am on the play again with Force of Will, Brainstorm, double Deathrite and some other stuff. I lead Deathrite, he plays a delta and ships, I brainstorm and find probe-therapy-surgical. Can't get much better than that. I probe him to see:

Brainstorm, Burning Wish, Cabal Therapy, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, and something else I can't read. Yikes.

I therapy. He brainstorms. It resolves. I name Cabal Therapy. He reveals close to the same hand. I flashback for BW and extract them in his draw step in case he hid an extra wish on top... but he had hidden LED on top. What a mess. He goes for it, but I have Force of Will for his tutor. I plink away with DRS to an eventual victory.

My list was slightly different. I played 3 Force main, 2 Gurmag Angler, 2 Snapcaster, no TNN. Sideboard was -Dimir Charm, E-plague, TNN; +Force of Will, Terminate, Sulfur Elemental. Rest is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28859-DTB-Grixis-Control-Thieves&p=888220&viewfull=1#post888220

Arianrhod, I like your build, seems more like hard control than the tempo-control build I'm running. I don't like 3 Wasteland though and might cut one for the 4th probe. Probe is a card I always want in my opener, it is a beating with Therapy obviously but also informs our Ponders/Brainstorms. I do want to keep wasteland in to feed Deathrite and also because there are definitely annoying lands we want to be able to hit like Boseiju, Karakas, Port, Depths/Stage, Tabernacle, Cradle, etc. And sometimes you go Deathrite into Waste-Pyromancer.

What advantages does Echoing Truth have over any other spell that could be in that slot? What do you and Shay like about it?

JDK
06-23-2015, 05:13 PM
Please explain yourself. Apart from the blood moon in the Rug Mu, which can be understandable otp since he plays so many removals for goyf, I find it quite good. He also kept Forces and didn't bring reb vs the 4 color shardless mu, which may be weird (postboard, only vision and bs are likely to be hit - they have bbe instead of jace).
I don't think boarding out TNN is necessarily the best choice against Miracles as it forces them to find the Terminus. I also dislike boarding in Hydroblast just for some Pyroblasts/REBs. Against BUG I'd rather have Flusterstorms than Blasts to be able to fight the discard. For RUG I'd also much rather have Flusterstorm than BEB.


Anyway, played a slightly changed list this Sunday for a 3:1 swiss record (0:2 Miracles [Einherjer aka Schönegger], 2:0 Burn, 2:0 UR Delver, 2:0 Omnishow) followed by a loss in the semifinals against Miracles 0-2 (Einherjer again).

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
1 Terminate
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Pyroblast

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Young Pyromancer

Sideboard
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Smash to Smethereens
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
1 Electrickery
1 Deathmark
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm


The list felt very strong, except for the Miracle MU. Couldn't beat those flips. ;)

I went back to two Cliques and they were expectedly bonkers against Omnishow. The Terminate was there to have a maindeck answer to Goyf.dec, but there weren't any at all, so it could have been anything. Null Rod and Engineered Explosives is still a dangerous combination, despite being a necessary evil sometimes. I'll probably switch the Rod for a second Needle, so I can safely board in both.

ironclad8690
06-23-2015, 07:10 PM
How do you guys board vs the Jeskai decks? I have been having some trouble with Miracles (they are all playing Izzet Staticaster now) and UWr Blade (idk what I am doing wrong but I don't think this should be that bad of a MU), as well as the Mentor version of Miracles.

Here is my mainboard:

4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

1 Dack Fayden

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dig Through Time

4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Shattering Spree
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Forked Bolt
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
1 Innocent Blood
1 Marsh Casualties

Still kind of new to the deck, but if anyone can give me tips I would appreciate it!

maharis
06-24-2015, 10:07 AM
How do you guys board vs the Jeskai decks? I have been having some trouble with Miracles (they are all playing Izzet Staticaster now) and UWr Blade (idk what I am doing wrong but I don't think this should be that bad of a MU), as well as the Mentor version of Miracles.

You really need to get a clock on them, which is why I think this deck needs DRS.

I appreciate wanting to jam 4 digs and Preordain and Murderous Cut but it's a little too durdly. Gurmag Angler is excellent as well against them since it can't be counterbalanced. Yes, Terminus/STP, but we have our own counters (especially games 2+3) plus probe-therapy. They will also STP Deathrite/YP

I also dislike Murderous Cut since the only thing it really deals with that you can't just nail with Lightning Bolt is Tarmogoyf, and I don't see a lot of Goyfs right now. I board a Terminate in case I play against a creature deck and try to go wide with Pyromancer or underneath with Deathrite Shaman game 1.

Blade decks can be problematic if they get their equips down. Therapy is our only real defense. Null Rod is great postboard, especially if you can kill the germ token somehow (elemental/bolt is my favorite, but it looks like echoing truth is good for that in your deck)

JosephK
06-24-2015, 04:49 PM
How do you guys board vs the Jeskai decks? I have been having some trouble with Miracles (they are all playing Izzet Staticaster now) and UWr Blade (idk what I am doing wrong but I don't think this should be that bad of a MU), as well as the Mentor version of Miracles.



Stoneblade is one of the easiest MU for this deck, especially if you run Dack Main. With your list, I would suggest something like :

-1 Echoing truth -1 Cut -3 Bolt -2 Force
+2 Pyroblast +1 Marsh +1 Fluster +1 Artifact hate (your choice is very poor -shattering spree?? You need an instant, like charm or command) +1 Jace +1 Clique

You don't need Rod post board since you already have dack.. If they play Mentor/Souls, Dread of night/Sulfur Elemental is very good.
But your list needssome fixing.


Miracle is another problem since it plays CB and top. This MU is difficult if the opponent knows what he s doing. You'd better have something special for them MD or SB.

JDK
06-24-2015, 07:13 PM
You really board out Bolts against Stoneblade? :eyebrow:

JosephK
06-25-2015, 03:59 AM
Cabal + Artifact hate already deal with sfm. Or maybe you're afraid of a 1/2 ? I won't keep bolt if they don't play delver.

JDK
06-25-2015, 06:40 AM
If your Therapy can't get there (Counter, Discard, not drawn) you only have 3 removals + 1 DackF left. Sounds pretty susceptible to me. I'd probably cut a mixture of Preordain/FoW with that list. Depends on the opponent's list though, of course.

ironclad8690
06-27-2015, 03:45 PM
Would it be possible to tweak this to a more midrange-oriented version with less countermagic/discard and more removal? I know the combo and miracle matchups would suffer a bit, but I have been struggling against many of the fair decks of the format. Here is a thought:

10 Creatures:
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang

31 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Terminate
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Forked Bolt
1 Counterspell

19 Lands:
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard: 15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Perish
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Blood Moon
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Also, has anyone ever experimented with an Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives/Strix/Jitte type version of this deck? EE solves the Chalice problem as well as giving a quick answer to opposing YP tokens or flipped Delvers. With Dack, artifacts that you mill could have late-game value. It seems like explosives could be a powerful addition to this deck if the recurring engine aspect doesn't put too much of a strain on your dig through time resources.

ironclad8690
07-03-2015, 04:01 PM
So played in a daily event today with a new list similar to Maharis's. Lost to mentor miracles in round 1 0-2, game 2 was super close I had a DRS on board and he was at 2 life, but I couldn't block his single monk because he had an elspeth and he found a wear tear for my Pithing Needle which had named SDT at exaclty the time he needed to, as well as the 2 tops to do the prowess thing. I am putting Sulfur elemental in my board to try and deal with this in the future, as Sulfur is harder to stop with Countertop lock than Dread of Night. Anyone else have a similar experience vs mentor miracles? Very frustrating

Kanti
07-05-2015, 10:55 PM
Anybody else see that Pyromancer Ascension tech? Seems pretty cheeky.

Jizz
07-07-2015, 07:24 AM
Ended up 19th at GP Lille with Grixis Control. The list was built with Pierre Dagen (who played more or less the same deck), that I thank very much. Also Thanks to JosephK and Medvedev for helping :).

1 [UNH] Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ZEN] Pyromancer Ascension
1 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [5E] Pyroblast
3 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [UNH] Mountain
SB: 1 [7E] Meekstone
SB: 1 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast

R3. Aggro Loam 0-2
R4. Grixis Delver 2-0
R5. Bug Delver 0-2
R6. Omnishow 2-1
R7. Miracle 2-0
R8. Omnishow 2-0
R9. Bug Delver 2-1
R10. Omnishow 2-0
R11. Miracle 2-0
R12. Omnishow 2-0
R13. Burn 1-2 (nice guy, very interesting games)
R14. Reanimator 2-0
R15. Grixis Control 2-0

Lifeloss
07-08-2015, 09:58 AM
Ended up 19th at GP Lille with Grixis Control. The list was built with Pierre Dagen (who played more or less the same deck), that I thank very much. Also Thanks to JosephK and Medvedev for helping :).

1 [UNH] Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [M14] Young Pyromancer
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ZEN] Pyromancer Ascension
1 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [5E] Pyroblast
3 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [UNH] Mountain
SB: 1 [7E] Meekstone
SB: 1 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast

R3. Aggro Loam 0-2
R4. Grixis Delver 2-0
R5. Bug Delver 0-2
R6. Omnishow 2-1
R7. Miracle 2-0
R8. Omnishow 2-0
R9. Bug Delver 2-1
R10. Omnishow 2-0
R11. Miracle 2-0
R12. Omnishow 2-0
R13. Burn 1-2 (nice guy, very interesting games)
R14. Reanimator 2-0
R15. Grixis Control 2-0

Congratulations on the great finish :D Thanks for sharing, if you feel like writing up a tournament report I'm sure you'll have some interested readers!

exallium
07-14-2015, 09:13 AM
From my limited playing, Ascension feels very strong. I can normally turn it on very quickly, sometimes on the same turn due to the amount of redundancy in the deck. Flashing back a therapy with an elemental token, making a new token and copying it? Grounds for concession.

-- EDIT --

In your opinions, what's the best way to deal with Shardless?

I played against it this morning and found that it was a bit of a beating. If they get a large board presence there isn't much we can do. Rakdos Charm and Kolaghan's command are both allstars in the matchup of course, and I feel like Blood Moon is very strong, but probably only in Game 2.

I'm assuming they side out forces? Maybe our best approach here is to use our blasts selectively on visions, and try to grind their hand away, getting rid of Goyfs and other threats with Therapy.

Pyromancer is great if you can keep them off of Deluge or Charm. Tasigur feels like a must as well. All of the threats in my build (YP, Snap, TNN) die to Golgari Charm and Deluge, whereas Tassy is very hard for them to remove.

I'm playing this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9964&d=257457&f=LE

And boarded like so:

+1 Tassigur, +2 Needle, +3 Blast, +2 Rakdos Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Blood Moon
-4 Force, -3 Therapy, -2 Probe, -1 Preordain

I think next time I will keep in a Preordain and only bring in 1 Needle, as it's good against the meiser's Jitte or to help stave off DRS and save our bolts for a more worthy target. YP makes Lili bad by himself.

I'm also interested in holding off of Blood Moon, and boarding back into Therapies in G3 if they saw BM G2. This is because they'll be playing around it, and we can make their mana worse and make our black cards better just by posing the threat. Using Therapy and Blast to keep them off threats and refilling their hand seems like a win.

Thoughts?

Lifeloss
07-24-2015, 09:34 AM
I'm assuming they side out forces? Maybe our best approach here is to use our blasts selectively on visions, and try to grind their hand away, getting rid of Goyfs and other threats with Therapy.

Pyromancer is great if you can keep them off of Deluge or Charm. Tasigur feels like a must as well. All of the threats in my build (YP, Snap, TNN) die to Golgari Charm and Deluge, whereas Tassy is very hard for them to remove.

I'm playing this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9964&d=257457&f=LE

And boarded like so:

+1 Tassigur, +2 Needle, +3 Blast, +2 Rakdos Charm, +1 Dismember, +1 Blood Moon
-4 Force, -3 Therapy, -2 Probe, -1 Preordain


I play Shardless as my main deck and Grixis Control as a secondary / pet. From my experience as Shardless sides out 4 Forces and 1 or 2 Jaces. What they bring in depends on their board. What I bring in is: 2/3 Leyline of the Void, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Deluge or Pulse (if I think you're running Planeswalkers or fatties).

Blood Moon is a beating. I Would never side it out game 3, Shardless is a tap out strategy, if they are not tapping out, you're doing fine. If they are not drawing cards and killing stuff, they are losing.

I like the Dismember, Blood Moon, and the blasts. I don't think removing their graveyard is where you want to be. Deff would keep the Therapies and the cantrip in. I mean.. that's what Grixis does.

Hope this helps

Edit: I hadn't looked at your list yet. This is why I do not like True-name in that setup. Everything dies to 'golgari charm' effects. Cheers

warfordium
07-26-2015, 11:04 PM
played the 2x Ascension list in a 5-rounder on Saturday—i cut two singletons (Diabolic Edict and Mana Leak) and went to 4 Ponder/2 Preordain instead of 3/3.

Beat Miracles 3x, lost to Merfolk (Chalice 1 in G1 and parade of Lords in G2) and UWR Delver (fell victim to Wasteland on my lone Volc with Terminate and Bolt in hand). ended 9th on breakers.

Activating it against Miracles is lights out, especially with active counter-top. I didn't activate it in games against the 2 non-Miracles decks, though doubling up on removal would have been nice in those cases. I will probably cut them and just go back to more removal in the main and leave the Miracles hate in the sideboard. While cute, the Rakdos Charm is probably inferior to a 2nd Surgical Extraction. Also, not sure about the singleton Blood Moon. Maybe with more removal buying time to find it, but against UWR and BUG Delver the clock and interaction are both real.

Deck:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Terminate

2 Pyromancer Ascension

4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time
1 Counterspell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Slaughter Games
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Blood Moon
1 Murderous Cut
1 Fire Covenant

sdematt
07-26-2015, 11:42 PM
Yeah, if you DID lose to Miracles here, I would have assumed you were drunk or something.

Nice job. Too bad on the finish.

-Matt

Whitefaces
07-27-2015, 06:37 AM
I play Shardless as my main deck and Grixis Control as a secondary / pet. From my experience as Shardless sides out 4 Forces and 1 or 2 Jaces. What they bring in depends on their board. What I bring in is: 2/3 Leyline of the Void, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Deluge or Pulse (if I think you're running Planeswalkers or fatties).

Blood Moon is a beating. I Would never side it out game 3, Shardless is a tap out strategy, if they are not tapping out, you're doing fine. If they are not drawing cards and killing stuff, they are losing.

I play Shardless as my main deck too, that's pretty spot on SBing (cut Jaces and Forces for Leylines and sweepers).

Blood Moon is either exceptional, or very weak. Try and pay attention to G1 if they play discard as it's the best way to find out if or how many basics they might be playing. As a rough guide (don't take it as gospel), if you see Thoughtseize it's the 'US Shardless' and they're more likely to have no basics or a single Swamp. If you see no discard, good chance it's the 'EU Shardless' and you can expect a Forest and a Swamp. I fetch these asap vs Grixis as I know there's a good chance there's a moon post-SB. Also, the latter generally doesn't play Golgari Charm.

acman54321
08-02-2015, 12:30 AM
I went to an 18 person local tournament last night with the following deck:

4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

1 Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Null Rod
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood
1 Terminate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Forked Bolt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sulfur Elemental

I threw the sideboard together pretty quickly, trying to include a variety of answers to Goyf/Gurmag, combo, and D&T. In the maindeck I didn't have a 4th Cabal Therapy so I put in a 2nd Preordain.

I'm pretty new to this deck, so there are some things I really need to improve on; particularly sideboarding, and when to cast my threats (do I jam YP turn 2? or wait to get value off it immediately). I didn't take notes, so I'll try to get the details correct.

Round 1, 4c Delver
I had just finished putting my deck together, so I was a little on edge, and I think it really effected my play. I was not in the mindset of playing around daze/stifle, and in G1 I got hit by each of those. That disruption was enough to put me back long enough to not be able to handle his Goyf when he forced it through. Game 2 went a little longer, but my two-mana answers to goyf proved too slow to do the job. I think Innocent Blood really shines here.
SB: Terminate, Innocent Blood, Echoing Truth, and blasts were not enough to stop his threats
2-0 (0-1)

Round 2, Extract Homebrew
Fun match against a friendly player who brought his own build filled with some discard and extraction effects.
2-0 (1-1)

Round 3, BUG delver
G1 was a grindy game where I stuck a Jace early, spent a few turns bouncing his Goyf, stabilized with a TNN, and eventually Jace won it for me through massive CA. G2 was the opposite, where he stuck an early Lili, and there wasn't much I could do. We had very little time for G3, but when time was called I had Terminated a goyf, bolt-killed a Lili, and stuck a Baleful Strix, so I feel confidant I could have won that.
1-1-1 (1-1-1)

Round 4, Sort of Mirror match
In game 1 we both sat cantripping for a few turns, and he finally stuck a YP. The difference maker was when I stuck my YP but had a Cabal Therapy to follow up. In one of the following games I was able to stick the TNN and rode it to victory.
2-0? 2-1? (2-1-1)

Round 5, A friend with Nic Fit
I knew his deck, but not this matchup. Jace won me one game after I Therapied and countered his early creatures. Having basics of my own the get with Veteran Explorer was nice. G2 I finally got some use out of the Null Rod in my sideboard by turning off his Tops. I think I won this with creatures after putting him in topdeck mode.
2-0 (3-1-1)

My record was good enough to get 4th which was a nice surprise! I had written off any shot at prizes after facing two Goyf decks early on. Which leads me to some of my biggest concerns with this deck and the sideboard: how do we deal with all the cheap threats that get thrown at us?? The Atog Lord summed the problem up nicely before:

The real threat out of Delver are the creatures. They can be too fast and too well-defended. And the Grixis delver deck in particular is designed to be resilient to removal.

Against RUG Delver, I have been thinking that Edict effects are strong; Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict are very interesting options. Of course, the mean introducing Black as a main color again, but that isn't the end of the world.

Things are more difficult against Grixis Delver. Edict effects get much worse against Young Pyromancer. Targeted removal doesn't do anything against True Name Nemesis. And cards like Marsh Casualties are embarrassing against everyone's favorite Zombie Fish. It isn't an easy problem to solve.
I went for a variety of answers in my sideboard and it went okay. I think we have a good deck to run 1-offs because of the 4 DTT. I might try -1 Terminate +1 Innocent Blood in my sideboard. Innocent Blood is great when we have 0 creatures out, or our main threat, Young Pyromancer. It is effective against the big threats if we are able to pick off the smaller creatures with bolts. It is not good against YP, but maybe we just have to hope that we are the better YP deck, and can make more tokens faster.

acman54321
08-02-2015, 11:22 AM
Some more thoughts on my report above:

Another solution to threats (minus YP and TNN) would be to increase the number of Baleful Strix. I didn't play any combo at that tournament so the Clique felt pretty sub-par. I might test -1 Clique +1 Strix, and see if the rest of my deck's disruption is enough to deal with the combo decks.

Echoing truth could be moved to the mainboard as a versatile answer. It's been done before by others, I might try it myself. Truth + Therapy is a nice way to permanently deal with something.

Being unfamiliar with the deck, I had some issues with the manabase. Generally against Stifle/Wasteland decks I would fetch basic Island turn 1 so I can cantrip. Then Fetch a mountain or USea if i wanted to Therapy or jam a YP (this might just be a bad idea). Then there were times where I would find myself without 2 Blue mana available (eg. if my Sea got wasted, or my next fetch got stifled). And my list ran LOTS of 'UU' spells, (9 off the top of my head). Maybe I just prioritize fetching double basic island first? That way I'll always have the ability to Dig through my deck and play out my threats/disruption when it is safe.

martijnend
08-02-2015, 04:13 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to the deck as well. Went to a local tournament with 19 people on saturday. Normally I play Shardless, but I feel it's not as strong as it was a year ago so I decided to sleeve up Grixis.

My list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 True Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Innocent Blood
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast

SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Electrickery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

I wanted to play a couple of one-offs in my MD to see how I liked them. The only one that was underperforming was Forked Bolt.

R1: Jund 2-0 (1-0)
In both games I could answer his early plays and he lost to the extreme amounts of CA the deck provides.
R2: ANT (2-0) (2-0)
Close games, but I had too much disruption and counter magic. He couldn't really go for the kill at any point in the matches.
R3: Nivmagus combo 2-0 (3-0)
This was really not a match. We have all the answers we need.
R4: RG Lands ID (3-0-1) played for fun and I lost 1-2. I didn't yet know how to play against the deck.
I won the first match. After sb he had a quick CotV on 1 in both games which was terrible for me. I didn't find an answer of a Blood Moon so the games were not going my way.
R5: don't remember what he played... ID (3-0-2)
QF: Miracles 2-1
It was an easy game preboard. The second game he had all the answers and killed me with his Monastery Mentor. In the third game I Therapy'd his SDT's and Pyroblasted his CB. I went all in on my YP and got him to 2 life went he miracled a Terminus. He had a follow up Mentor, but I found a Bolt on top.
SF: RG Lands (same guy) 2-0
Again I won the preboard game, which is good for us. The second game I had it all. T1: Probe into Therapy into Extraction for all Loams (noticing while searching his library that he played no basics, which is a good thing when you have Blood Moon in hand). T3 Blood Moon with double FoW back up for Mox Diamond was enough.
F: Grixis Delver 1-2
Grindy games where I won the first game. He won the second. I was very well positioned in the third game but he topdecked a few very good cards and beat me in the end. It was a fun match with a lot of thrash talk from us and the audience and pretty much everyone agreed that my opponent drew extremely well in G3.

Notes on the deck:
The main deck Extraction, Pyroblast and Flusterstorm were extremely good. The same goes for the sac effects in the deck. I wouldn't go for less than three or four.
The card I didn't like was Forked Bolt. I'll probably replace that with an Echoing Truth next saturday.

2nd place in my first small tournament with the deck is a pretty good start. Next saturday I'll probably be in Amsterdam with the deck. I might try Massacre in the sb since there are quite a few D&T players there.
I'll let you guys know how it went.

acman54321
08-02-2015, 11:55 PM
How do you feel about using Sulfur Elemental as an answer to D&T instead of Massacre or Dread of Night? I haven't had much experience with it yet, but in theory it seems like the elemental has some big plus sides: it's a persistent effect, it can be flashed in, it is nearly uncounterable, and it double as a beater. It seems like a strong answer to D&T as well as Mentor decks (particularly Mentor-Miracles, because the Elemental is a near-uncounterable threat).

I've also been thinking of including a 1-off Spell Snare. It seems like a lot of the cards we worry about are 2 mana: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyro, Chalice on 1, Counterbalance. Most decks have some 2cmc spell worth countering, so it will rarely be totally dead (although it does seem very poor against Omni-Tell).

sdematt
08-03-2015, 02:35 AM
I'll be trying something a little more mid-rangey:

4 Young Peezy
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Clique
2 TNN
14

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 DTT
1 Murderous Cut
1 Terminate
1 Counterspell
1 Fire/Ice
1 Fire Covenant
3 Cabal Therapy
27

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
19

//BOARD//

1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
1 Surgical Extraction
15

deadlock
08-03-2015, 04:10 AM
I'll be trying something a little more mid-rangey:

4 Young Peezy
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Clique
2 TNN
14

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 DTT
1 Murderous Cut
1 Terminate
1 Counterspell
1 Fire/Ice
1 Fire Covenant
3 Cabal Therapy
27

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
19

//BOARD//

1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
1 Surgical Extraction
15

While I don't agree with all your choices, I like your inclusion of DRS. To me it is the natural evolution of Grixis since the banning of Cruise. A problem of the deck (seemingly neglected by many) is the mana curve in relation to the delve spell (now DTT). Cruise Grixis was powerful, because it could spam out cheap spells and refill for cheap also. DTT costs twice as much, which has to be accommodated accordingly by either reducing the rest of the curve, which forces one into a more tempo oriented build with Delver or additional mana acceleration: DRS.
Now the question is, keep it Grixis like your build or go full 4c? The first take has a better manabase, the latter more card choices, especially Abrupt Decay is important to mention. Consider this sample decklist, just to give you an idea:

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Dig Through Time
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Misty Rainforest

Open questions:
- Is commiting to green worthwhile (biggest upsides AD and sb cards)?
- Does DRS work without green lands (removing a creature requires 2 DRS + Land in the yard without a green land)?

martijnend
08-03-2015, 05:40 PM
How do you feel about using Sulfur Elemental as an answer to D&T instead of Massacre or Dread of Night? I haven't had much experience with it yet, but in theory it seems like the elemental has some big plus sides: it's a persistent effect, it can be flashed in, it is nearly uncounterable, and it double as a beater. It seems like a strong answer to D&T as well as Mentor decks (particularly Mentor-Miracles, because the Elemental is a near-uncounterable threat).

I've also been thinking of including a 1-off Spell Snare. It seems like a lot of the cards we worry about are 2 mana: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyro, Chalice on 1, Counterbalance. Most decks have some 2cmc spell worth countering, so it will rarely be totally dead (although it does seem very poor against Omni-Tell).

I considered Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night as possible sideboard cards against D&T. I think the fact that they are permanents counts against them. They'll have answers for them. It is very unlikely for them to have an answer for instant speed board wipe. Also I like the free cost of Massacre. Normally D&T will be rather efficient at keeping your mana at a low level with their Ports and Wastelands, which means Sulfur Elemental is harder to cast. Dread of Night would be my second choice. However, as I mentioned the instant speed of Massacre is crucial to me. Furthermore the -2/-2 pretty much kills everything except Serra Avenger and Restoration Angel.

The singleton Spell Snare is interesting. If you try it out I'm very interested to hear how it works for you. If you like it I'll give it a go as well.

@Deadlock: your list seems fine. A good starting point to tweak to personal preference and try at a local tournament. You'll be weaker against Tempo decks I imagine, because of the Stifle/Waste combo. But the inclusion of DRS might help with that.
I'm not a fan of Tasigur in these decks.
To answer your questions: I think adding green depends on the meta. I don't know the deck well enough to know whether now is the right time. I don't think you should play DRS without green lands. Also, you won't be able to cast your AD's without a DRS in play, which sounds terrible.

Are you going to test it?

martijnend
08-09-2015, 02:42 AM
Well, as I said I played in Amsterdam yesterday. It was a tragedy. I went 1-4.

R1: Grixis Delver 0-2
R2: Miracles 2-1
R3: BUG Delver 0-2
R4: Shardless 1-2
R5: UR Delver 1-2

The deck was really performing terribly. DTT's that found nothing, Ponder into 3 land, shuffle, still a land (stuff like that). I probable made some mistakes as well in the later rounds.
I tried the Massacre and it got sided in against Miracles with some success, though I don't think I really needed it. There were two D&T decks as well, but I didn't get paired against them.

It will be a few weeks before I can play again.

Dutch253
08-11-2015, 05:08 PM
Hello everyone. So I'm totally in love with this deck and play it on Xmage. Unfortunate in paper I'm missing the high dollar Legacy staples. What can I play as a replacement to them? Spell Pierce or actual Counterspell in for Forces? Shocks will have to be in for Duals. I realize this will be waaaay less than ideal but I'll have to deal with it as I attain the rest of the staples. Any ideas for helping me make some money saving changes would be greatly appreciated!


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Nocley
08-13-2015, 05:37 PM
Hello everyone. So I'm totally in love with this deck and play it on Xmage. Unfortunate in paper I'm missing the high dollar Legacy staples. What can I play as a replacement to them? Spell Pierce or actual Counterspell in for Forces? Shocks will have to be in for Duals. I realize this will be waaaay less than ideal but I'll have to deal with it as I attain the rest of the staples. Any ideas for helping me make some money saving changes would be greatly appreciated!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There really isn't any good substitute for FoW. Force is a Legacy staple for a reason. Not having Forces makes the deck play out much differently than when you do. It's not just to stop the T1 combo, it's to stop things like a Chalice on 1, allow you to tap out for a sorcery and still have counterspell backup ,etc. There are probably (I would hope) multiple articles discussing the importance of Force in legacy as a balancing factor, even if yes, there are successful decks without it.

As for shocks over duals, again I'd say that they're in there for important reasons. This deck already does not have a fast clock, and having to take more damage decreases our ability to stabilize against those which do have speedy clocks - such as burn, rug delver, etc.

However, I don't need to be so pessimistic. Looking at forces, we have two options here - disrupting shoal, or spell pierce. Counterspell is alright, but if you're cutting the T1 counter, you better have something to replace it with for T1. Spell Pierce is likely better, but if the meta is defined by decks which have 1 mana spells that you need to force, then Shoal is the closest thing to FoW. Tying this in to shocks over duals, you end up wanting much more disruption in general. As you see here, there are two builds of this deck going around - one with heavier creatures (essentially being delverless delver), or the one that is much closer to full control, running therapys, and a heavy cantrip suite. Since we would be losing FoW, you want heavier disruption and instant speed control, so I would aim towards the version running Ascensions and Therapies, which play out as heavy disruption closing out with Pyromancers. I would recommend trying to aim for something like this: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10142&d=258384&f=LE . I personally prefer Thought Scours over Preordains, in both my build as well as a budget build, due to instant speed, allowing you to keep more up.

Which brings me to the comment I came in here for, Which is referring to the linked above decklist. I really like Ascensions, and I love the cantrip + therapy suite. However, it comes down to two further smaller choices - how do we close out the game faster? Jace isn't anything I've ever been excited about, as I usually only ever have time to resolve it when I've basically locked up the game by resolving 2 Digs. How can we turn this into a more reliant kill? Is TNN over Jace good here, because of inevitability? Or no, because it also gets hit by all the -1/-1 splash damage on things like pyromancers? I'm always afraid of running out of win conditions in my list. Secondly, how can we improve the RUG delver matchup? Even with 2 Perish (and 2 Blood Moon in some testing lists), I can never seem to either get up to 3 mana, or just not die to a T1 Mongoose. I've started thinking more about things like Blind Naming Goose/Goyf on T1 with Therapy, multiple Innocent Bloods, etc.

JosephK
08-14-2015, 10:29 AM
Which brings me to the comment I came in here for, Which is referring to the linked above decklist. I really like Ascensions, and I love the cantrip + therapy suite. However, it comes down to two further smaller choices

- how do we close out the game faster? Jace isn't anything I've ever been excited about, as I usually only ever have time to resolve it when I've basically locked up the game by resolving 2 Digs. How can we turn this into a more reliant kill? Is TNN over Jace good here, because of inevitability? Or no, because it also gets hit by all the -1/-1 splash damage on things like pyromancers? I'm always afraid of running out of win conditions in my list.

Secondly, how can we improve the RUG delver matchup? Even with 2 Perish (and 2 Blood Moon in some testing lists), I can never seem to either get up to 3 mana, or just not die to a T1 Mongoose. I've started thinking more about things like Blind Naming Goose/Goyf on T1 with Therapy, multiple Innocent Bloods, etc.

Hello Nocley,

.Concerning Jace vs Tnn, it just happens that Jace solves more problems than tnn does (Consider Wurmcoil, Goyf, Knight, Goose (Tnn>J), ...) and also offers a reliable way to kill your opponent when he's protected by ascension or yp.
Young Pyromancer and Tnn, in the end, have the same function : both are somewhat evasive threats that can't be dealt with single targeted spells. Jace brings a new axis, gives more extension to our Digs, more extension to the deck. But it certainly needs ascension to be fully effective.
Unless you're playing the deck on Modo, you shouldn't have problems with closing out games.

. The list you've mentionned should be pretty ok postsb with the rug MU. It's maybe your sideboard plan which is not optimal. Blood moon is quite bad in the MU. So is Therapy. I would suggest with the above list :
-4 Therapy -2 Cspell -1 Jace -2 Ascension
+1 Perish +2 fluster +2 Grim +1 Reb +1 Command +1 Hydroblast +1 Mountain
OTP you could keep 1 or 2 therapy but I recommend to test this first.

Hope it helps

Degausser
08-17-2015, 12:40 AM
Hey guys, I've been a long time lurker and finally decided to get involved with the source community. I typically play storm, but have temporarily put the deck down due to an over-saturation of miracles and mud in our local meta. Today at a GPT for Seattle, I decided to play grixis control. The event had 15 people and I went undefeated until the finals where I ultimately was felled by aggro loam.

The list:
Jizz's 75
-1 hydroblast (sb)
-1thoughtseize (sb)
+1 kolaghan's command (sb)
+1 Tsabo's web

Round 1: The Gate
Win 2-0

Round 2: Miracles
Win 2-0

Round 3: Omnitell
Win 2-0

Round 4: Grixis Delver
Win 2-0

Round 5: Elves
ID to put myself as the #1 seed in the top 4

Semifinals: Elves (guy I ID'd with)
Win: 2-1

Finals: Aggro Loam
Loss 1-2

Overall the list felt incredibly tight. Obviously there are weaknesses to big dumb green dudes, but what can you do? I will post a tournament report later this week if anyone is interested.

Lormador
08-17-2015, 08:03 AM
Anybody else see that Pyromancer Ascension tech? Seems pretty cheeky.

I guess I might be the last person to get the memo about how cool this deck is, but I'm enjoying it immensely. Just got the last pieces to build it today, and I've already got a question.

Under what conditions is Pyromancer Ascension better than Dack Fayden? It appears that these are the two branches available to the deck, apart from the configuration of the creature suite. Is there a relationship between the creature suite and the choice of planeswalker vs. ascension?

kuroko16
08-17-2015, 03:12 PM
Hey guys, I've been a long time lurker and finally decided to get involved with the source community. I typically play storm, but have temporarily put the deck down due to an over-saturation of miracles and mud in our local meta. Today at a GPT for Seattle, I decided to play grixis control. The event had 15 people and I went undefeated until the finals where I ultimately was felled by aggro loam.

The list:
Jizz's 75
-1 hydroblast (sb)
-1thoughtseize (sb)
+1 kolaghan's command (sb)
+1 Tsabo's web

Round 1: The Gate
Win 2-0

Round 2: Miracles
Win 2-0

Round 3: Omnitell
Win 2-0

Round 4: Grixis Delver
Win 2-0

Round 5: Elves
ID to put myself as the #1 seed in the top 4

Semifinals: Elves (guy I ID'd with)
Win: 2-1

Finals: Aggro Loam
Loss 1-2

Overall the list felt incredibly tight. Obviously there are weaknesses to big dumb green dudes, but what can you do? I will post a tournament report later this week if anyone is interested.


jyzz list is really good. report is a great idea:cool:

Quasim0ff
08-17-2015, 03:36 PM
If Big Green Dudes is an actual problem, in general, how do people feel about Perish then?

They get to Boil our(Your) lands and Choke the leftovers, it only feels like fairness all their dudes are belonging to the GY then.

LordOMJ
08-19-2015, 09:50 AM
I guess I might be the last person to get the memo about how cool this deck is, but I'm enjoying it immensely. Just got the last pieces to build it today, and I've already got a question.

Under what conditions is Pyromancer Ascension better than Dack Fayden? It appears that these are the two branches available to the deck, apart from the configuration of the creature suite. Is there a relationship between the creature suite and the choice of planeswalker vs. ascension?

IMO, all of them. And this coming from someone that took longer than most to get off the Dack train. Everything I liked about Dack when I played it (except for the occasionally relevant artifact theft) was better accomplished by running 4 preordain. You get to filter through your library just as effectively (if not more so) without the card disadvantage that comes with dropping him on board and vulnerability of often being without creatures to protect him. Ascension flows naturally from that style of build, but even if you don't run PA I'm still solidly convinced that 4 preordain is the right way to go.

Focusing in on PA, I've found it does two things that Dack never could. 1.) gives you another source of actual card advantage. one you can bury your opponent under. 2.) like YP if gives you an explosive, scalable way to close out the game. unlike YP and most of the deck's other options, this is a choice that doesn't get hammered by -1/-1 effects.

Obviously how good it ends up being varies, but I do want to share one story to illustrate. I'm playing G3 against Miracles. On turn 0 of turns I play YP and make 5-6 elemental tokens. On turn 1 he hard casts terminus. Turn 2 I cast PA, cast cantrips to get it active, then cast 2 DTT to dig a total of 28 cards deep looking for my outs. I find 3 bolt, FoW, blue card, cabal therapy, and TBH i don't remember what else but I had to discard to hand size at EOT. I FoW his clique on turn 3. turn 4 i therapy him to ensure the coast is clear, then triple bolt him for 18. Obviously Christmas came that day, but that type of scenario isn't too far-fetched. I don't think I've lost a game where PA has gotten active and gone unanswered. At the very least, if you have a cantrip in hand and an active PA the game feels almost impossible to lose. everything that is strong about the deck suddenly starts to feel broken.

Running PA does influence some other maindeck choices. For instance, I run no creatures beside Young Peazy and only 3 DTT. I'm still trying to sort out my flex slots, which are a mix of counterspell, pyroblast, and forked bolt (for extra ability to win with PA & burn). I've also considered spell snare in counterspell's slot, since it hits RiP and Counterbalance on the draw. Having PA in deck also forces you to be very thoughtful about your sideboarding. You need to ask yourself whether it is better to bring in one more card, and if so which 4-of to shave. As always, it rewards coming into a tournament with a board plan for each match-up.

Lormador
08-19-2015, 08:27 PM
I hadn't realized that less than 4 Preordain was even an option. I've come to this deck with the strong desire to run all 4 Dig Through Time, so the extra cantrip slot seems like almost an auto-include. I need to fill the graveyard even faster than usual and control the draws as much as possible.

Dack is a cool card, but he hasn't worked out as well as I'd hoped so far. Is he a relic of the Treasure Cruise days that now imposes awkward design restrictions? I tried him with a number of defensive creatures (Baleful Strix) and he seemed to be at his best in that situation. Generally, I agree with you, it's not so easy to defend him... and if he dies quickly, he's a 3 mana Faithless Looting plus Fog.

I guess my initial problem with Ascension was the difficulty of classifying the card. It doesn't look like a win condition at first. Having activated it a few times now, I've changed my mind. Just doubling cantrips is fierce, and this soon turns into doubled counterspells, DTTs, and finally Lightning Bolts. It's unfortunate that Golgari Charm actually does deal with Ascension, but it's easier to play around this effect than Young Pyro vs. -1/-1. Even one turn of Ascension is probably enough to throw a copied Force of Will at that Golgari Charm.

The interaction of the mostly 4-of MD that fires Ascension and the singleton sideboard is interesting, as you've noted. I wonder if the best thing might be to just not worry about it, PA will always be pretty easy to turn on via the cantrips alone.

RiverBoa
08-20-2015, 01:24 AM
does this deck exist with drs or baby jace?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Degausser
08-21-2015, 01:23 AM
Here's a brief tournament report of the GPT I attended this past Sunday.

The List:
Jizz's 75
-1 hydroblast (sb)
-1 thoughtseize (sb)
+1 kolaghan's command (sb)
+1 Tsabo's Web (sb)

Round 1: (The Gate)
G1
I win the die roll and begin to hope my opponent isn't on Miracles as I have to ask him to please speed up his decision making twice while he's deciding on mulligans before the start of game 1. Ultimately he keeps 6 while I'm on a full 7. I start with a preordain which has the potential for a turn 2 ascension with force backup and a gitaxian probe to check to make sure I can resolve the ascension. I hold the probe so I can check my opponents hand on turn 2. My opponent leads with swamp, dark ritual. To me this is strongly signaling duress into either a storm kill or turn 1 griselbrand, so I reluctantly force it. I untap and cast probe to see a hand of go for the throat, gatekeeper of malakir, swamp, bitterblossom, urborg, and phyrexian arena. Eventually I get an active ascension and my opponent scoops as I Fork a dig through time.

G2
I didn't take any notes on this game, but what I do remember is at one point on my opponent's end step, I cast a lightning bolt on a faerie token, responded with force on my own bolt, and then I responded with flusterstorm on force all to activate my ascension. At this time, my opponent had 4 remaining faerie tokens in play an 7 cards in hand. I untapped, forked a dig, cast a young pyromancer, forked a forked bolt to wrath his board and then cast a single cabal therapy and flashed it back to mindtwist my opponent.

Round 2: (Kael on Miracles)
G1
I win the die role again and get a concession after I get an ascension active and counter his only council's judgment.

G2
I probe my opponent on turn 2 to see force, rest in peace, 2 terminus, counterbalance, plains, scalding tarn. On turn his 5th turn he casts RIP, I respond with spell snare, he responds with force pitching a freshly drawn ponder, and I respond with my own force which resolves. He then sticks a blind counterbalance. I untap and cast young pyromancer to which counterbalance reveals counterbalance. I follow up with ponder which after a cracked fetch, is countered by counterbalance revealing top. I then cast ascension, which with no additional way to manipulate his library, my opponent lets resolve. He concedes later in the game after I fork a pyroblast to destroy a jace and a counterbalance.

Round 3: (Omnitell)
G1
I cast three cabal therapies, one of which hits an emrakul to shut off dig as a way back in the game. Young pyromacer quickly cleans up.

G2
After another battery of early cabal therapies, my opponent casts a show and tell with a single card in hand which I know to be an omniscience. I let it resolve and put in a young pyromancer and then pyroblast the enchanment on endstep. My opponent proceeds to scoop.

Round 4: (Grixis Delver)
Before the start of the game, my opponent asks me for a draw which I kindly decline as there is still an additional round of swiss. If I win this round, I can ID my next round and be the #1 seed in the top 4. My opponent then bemoans the fact that he hasn't won a die roll all day. I smile and tell him I'll do my best not to break his streak. To his disgust, he loses the die roll.

G1
We both begin the game by cantriping. On turn 2, he slams a young pyromancer which I untap and bolt, easily playing around daze. Eventually, I bolt another 2 young pyromancers and a deathrite shaman and follow up with cabal therapy for his 2 lightning bolts in hand while he's tapped out. I cast a young pyromancer and he concedes. He complains that I cast 4 bolts to which I respond, "that's what happens when you let 3 digs resolve."

G2
My opponent keeps a 7 card hand, casts 2 gitaxian probes, misses his land drop and passes the turn. When my opponent finds his first land on turn 3, he attempts to resolve a ponder which I pyroblast only to get a monologue about how poor of a play that was. I can't help but think that I wasn't the one who kept a no-lander with double probe. I easily win this game.

Round 5: (Elves)
He agrees to a draw after I show him that he is guaranteed to be in the top 4 as either the 3rd or 4th seed.

Semi Finals: (Elves)
Unfortunately my last round opponent is the 4th seed and I don't feel that my elves matchup is particularly strong.

G1:
An early natural order checks for a force which I do not have. My teeth are promptly kicked in by hoof and company.

G2:
I bolt a turn 1 symbiote and cast surgical extraction on his draw step to hit one in his hand and remove the remaining 2 from his library. This game comes to a grind but grim lavamancer does his favorite thing--burning little green guys.

G3:
My opponent takes a mulligan to 5 and leads with a dryad arbor and passes. I promptly bolt it and win the game while my opponent struggles to find lands.

Finals: (Aggro Loam)
G1:
My opponent mulligans to 6 and I keep 7. I probe to see 2 mox diamond, gaddock teeg, barren moor, and 2 irrelevant cards. I therapy diamonds. He plays barren moor and passes. I play young pyromancer and pass. he plays a fetchland and passes. I cast a ponder, make a token, flashback therapy to snag teeg, and then my opponent scoops.
G2:
Chalice of the void sucks. Life from the loam + exploration + ghost quarter sucks. Knight of the reliquary sucks.
G3:
He begins with a leyline of the void in play...super. Fun fact, golgari charm kills young pyromancer, ascension, and my dreams of winning the tournament.

Sorry that the details for the report are sparse, I was only occasionally taking notes and I have a bad habit of scribbling out half of what I write. I will most likely be taking this deck to another GPT this coming Saturday with potential changes to the sideboard. Currently, I am very interesting in trying out some number of darkblasts.

Jizz
08-21-2015, 06:07 AM
Hello fellow Grixis players,

Some number of you asked me about sidetables, so I'll give here my take on them :

Delver wasteland strategies
The idea is to switch ascension for grim, Jace for Mountain and remove counterspells/discard for removals. Keep some number of Force/Cabal (Keep more Forces if you expect bolt/Goyf, more therapies if you expect Decay/Forked Bolt/Rough - More Forces on the draw, more Therapies on the play).
Example : RUG OTD, cf JosephK post. For BUG, you may want to keep Jace, especially OTP.

Miracle
This MU is getting trickier and trickier with the new 4 Mentor version and the 2 cavern Losset version. But generally you want out of the sb (with the GP List) :
+1 Reb +1 Rod +1 Sulfur
and you want to remove :
-2 Bolt -1 Yp
After that, you'll have to decide wether you want to remove more bolts, jace, and even 1 more YP for venser, flusterstorm. The list is built to ignore CB (that's why I don't play dread of night btw), but uncounterable Mentor is still a pain.


Midrange (Stoneblade/Shardless)
I actually never played vs these decks with ascension. So it's just speculation from now. I figured out to keep Ascension OTP and to remove it OTD. The plan is then to remove Forces for targeted answers - but you never want to remove all forces vs a Midrange Dig Deck.
Example : Shardless
-4 Force -1/0 Fire -0/2 Ascension
+2 Pyroblast + 1 Venser +1 Perish +0/1 Mountain +1 Command


Combo MUs are usually easier to grasp : switch Ascension for Flusterstorm, Bolt for Reb etc...



By the way, for those bringing this to GP Seattle, I'd suggest to try this :

MD -1 Pyroblast +1 Fire/ice
SB -1 Forked -1 Thoughtseize -1 Meakstone +1 Perish +1 Pyrob +1 Rakdos charm

We had only 2 days to build the sb before GP Lille and we expected a reasonable amount of Day 2 Merfolks. With this sb, the plan vs uncounterable Tnn is to race it.
With the MD Fire Ice which is good post sb vs Omnishow, we can get rid of Thoughtseize and have one more slot. I chose Rakdos Charm ; it's there for Chalice.decks that are more popular theses days. It fits well because we also need a sb card for storm. A second Gravehate is also good to have (the card is quite good vs Aggro.Loam).
But Blood Moon or a second Sulfur Elemental are good options too I guess.


--------

Great Finish Degausser :). Aggro Loam is a bad MU. I would side against these annoying guys :
+1 Venser +1 Sulfur +1 Command +1 Charm +1 Perish +1 Mountain +1 Surgical
-1 Pyroblast -2 Ascension -4 Preordain

Gl for your next Trial


-------

Great analysis LordofMJ. I was also playing dack as a late game draw filter (otherwise you end up drawing lots of lands from Turn 6-7 on -the ones that you put back with preordain/bs) but it's inferior to Ascension, in every way, as you proved it.

Whitefaces
08-21-2015, 06:30 AM
Nice report, thanks for sharing!

I've been playing with PA too, when it gets active it's disgusting (as your games show quite clearly!). RiP has been a bit of a problem for the deck, I currently don't have a Snare in the deck, something to find room for. Possibly even two as it gets Chalice, Goyf, Golgari Charm among others.

How have the counterspells been for people? And in the same vein, reactive cards? YP and PA reward proactive plays, I've felt a little tension between the two strategies.

JosephK
08-21-2015, 08:08 AM
Nice report, thanks for sharing!

I've been playing with PA too, when it gets active it's disgusting (as your games show quite clearly!). RiP has been a bit of a problem for the deck, I currently don't have a Snare in the deck, something to find room for. Possibly even two as it gets Chalice, Goyf, Golgari Charm among others.

How have the counterspells been for people? And in the same vein, reactive cards? YP and PA reward proactive plays, I've felt a little tension between the two strategies.

Rip is a problem when it comes early. Rip does nothing once ascension is active and can be considered as pure CD if we already resolved 1 dig. Ascension versions play only 5 grave dependant cards actually while others generally play 4 digs + 2 snap. It's easy to put them back into library or just pitch dig to force.

You're right about proactivity. I think it's only a matter of order : first you play a proactive game, establishing either Ascension or Yp+Cabal, then you switch to a reactive one, keeping mana for Cspells/Dig. Preordain, in that consideration, is a bit weak. But as we tend to have more mana when we switch to the reactive mode, it's just a matter of findind cspells with them during our turn. Some choose to play 4 thought scour to allow a faster reactive game. But Thought scour is so bad in my opinion (no card selection, pure chance), I would almost play Opt instead.

fluuu
08-21-2015, 08:27 AM
Do you guys think that PA is actually worth it?

neckfire
08-22-2015, 06:53 PM
By the way, for those bringing this to GP Seattle, I'd suggest to try this :

MD -1 Pyroblast +1 Fire/ice
SB -1 Forked -1 Thoughtseize -1 Meakstone +1 Perish +1 Pyrob +1 Rakdos charm

We had only 2 days to build the sb before GP Lille and we expected a reasonable amount of Day 2 Merfolks. With this sb, the plan vs uncounterable Tnn is to race it.
With the MD Fire Ice which is good post sb vs Omnishow, we can get rid of Thoughtseize and have one more slot. I chose Rakdos Charm ; it's there for Chalice.decks that are more popular theses days. It fits well because we also need a sb card for storm. A second Gravehate is also good to have (the card is quite good vs Aggro.Loam).
.

just curious, how is fire/ice good vs omnishow? it can't stop any of their spells and it can't tap down emrukual

Jizz
08-22-2015, 10:28 PM
just curious, how is fire/ice good vs omnishow? it can't stop any of their spells and it can't tap down emrukual

Hi, it's mainly there for their post sb Young Pyromancer plan. Unlike forked bolt, you can pitch it to force, or use it to tap boseiju during their upkeep/(tap one of their land so that they are tapped out during your turn)/(cantrip).

jdc5011
08-23-2015, 09:22 AM
Hey guys. In running something very similar to the jyzz list on pg 11. What do you think of spellsnare over pierce? It doesn't seem as much of a powerhouse in lgcy as it is in modern. Also, seeing as i got paired against lands 3 times in DC (thankfully i was on DnT at the time) how does this deck beat lands/aggro loam/BG pox? Is it simply pray you see a SE in your hand G2/3?

Sturtzilla
08-24-2015, 11:36 AM
GerryT just finished 6th with an interesting take on this deck. Check it out here.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90055

What do you guys think?

btm10
08-24-2015, 12:38 PM
GerryT just finished 6th with an interesting take on this deck. Check it out here.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90055

What do you guys think?

I really like new Jace and the additional MD removal. I'm still somewhat skeptical of Kolaghan's Command in a world with a bunch of Dazes, but the deck is very good at hitting its land drops. I don't love Strix and am sort of ambivalent about Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Ascension is probably too good not to run over at least one of those cards.

Sturtzilla
08-24-2015, 12:59 PM
I really like new Jace and the additional MD removal. I'm still somewhat skeptical of Kolaghan's Command in a world with a bunch of Dazes, but the deck is very good at hitting its land drops. I don't love Strix and am sort of ambivalent about Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Ascension is probably too good not to run over at least one of those cards.

Kolaghan's Command seems poor against Tempo match ups due to Daze/Spell Pierce. Getting to kill a delver and either buyback a Strix/Jace or force them to discard, seems very strong. There appear to be live modes in basically every type of match up, although some (like discussed above) might be a bit awkward. I find Baleful Strix hard to figure out at the moment. It is good against the aggro and tempo decks, but poor versus the combo and control decks. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is kind of in the same kind of boat. It can be hard to resolve against tempo decks but can just run away with the game. It has the added awkwardness of matching up poorly against TNN. Based on my reading and playtesting (admittedly little) Pyromancer Ascension seems to deserve a slot. As to how to exactly tune the list, probably depends on the meta you expect to fight through. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy really is interesting though.

HSCK
08-26-2015, 11:00 PM
Rich Shay's list had at least 2 TNN and a Jitte I think main deck?

Themucher
08-31-2015, 05:58 PM
Have people stopped playing snapcaster for any reason besides DTT? It used to be a solid 2 of in most decks alongside Tnn who has also fallen out of favor.

LordOMJ
08-31-2015, 06:11 PM
Have people stopped playing snapcaster for any reason besides DTT? It used to be a solid 2 of in most decks alongside Tnn who has also fallen out of favor.

In my experience, Snapcaster Mage got cut when I transitioned to including Pyromancer Ascension. There were a combination of factors that all played into that decision (with varying weight of influence):
1. Flashing back cards with SCM makes it more difficult to get PA active.
2. I wanted to reduce the number of cards that got shut off / neutered by gravehate (DTT and PA are much higher impact, so my preference was to cut SCM in favor of those)
3. Running fewer creatures makes activating PA easier.

Speaking broadly, I've found PA is a strong enough card in the deck that streamlining the deck around that gameplan has justified my thought process behind #'s 1 and 3. #2 is a concession to the reality of legacy. With PA, DTT, and CT in deck, RiP already shuts off some of our strongest lines. If that is going to happen, I'd prefer my lower impact cards at least continue to function as intended. That being said, I still consider running it as a one-of when I tweak my flex spots for a tournament, but I think countermagic is probably higher impact in those slots.

Themucher
09-01-2015, 09:30 AM
Another thought but have people ever tried ashiok in the sideboard as 1 or 2 of alternate win con? Can't be bolted, can be pitched to force of will. Can steal creatures. Only dies to abrupt decay.

Delvis
09-01-2015, 09:48 AM
Another thought but have people ever tried ashiok in the sideboard as 1 or 2 of alternate win con? Can't be bolted, can be pitched to force of will. Can steal creatures. Only dies to abrupt decay.

I wanted to try this when I was on this list, but I never did. However, this seems extra sweet against Miracles. 3cc is tough for them to CB, plus they have very few ways of actually interacting with it. Free Mentor/Clique/SCM/TNN seems really good. Also seems fair against RUG Delver since they don't have AD and they'll have difficulty interacting with their own Mongoose/Goyf, although counting on 3 mana against them might be asking a bit much.

One downside is if they have Needles, they're bringing them in to stop DRS and they'll be happy to use it to shut down Ashiok. Although, if that's their only Needle, now your DRSs are active. Also seems bad against AD decks, but if you're sandbagging it and getting them to spend all their ADs killing DRSs, YPs, and Ascensions, maybe you're overloading their removal.

It has an interesting interaction with Therapy, in that if they Brainstorm in response to Therapy, you can plus Ashiok to take the cards they hide on top. Worth testing, I would say.

(Walking into Magical Christmasland, how epic would it be getting Griselbrand or Emrakul? Conceivable to get to those loyalty totals against decks playing those cards, which probably have no hope of interacting with an Ashiok. lol)

H
09-01-2015, 10:19 AM
I hadn't checked this thread in a while, I hadn't seen that Ascendancy lists yet. Fascinating to say the least.

A question for those running it, does the threat density ever cause an issue? I am asking mainly about those that run four Pyromancer/one Jace as win conditions.

LordOMJ
09-01-2015, 11:57 AM
I hadn't checked this thread in a while, I hadn't seen that Ascendancy lists yet. Fascinating to say the least.

A question for those running it, does the threat density ever cause an issue? I am asking mainly about those that run four Pyromancer/one Jace as win conditions.

It's less of an issue honestly. Don't forget that Ascension is 100% a threat too. Not only does killing with Bolt become much more viable, but you're also able to dig to your other win conditions much more effectively. SCM and Strix were never threats in the first place, so as far as what other builds would run, you're sacrificing TNN and maybe Tasigur? I was never enamored with either of those in the first place.

H
09-01-2015, 12:57 PM
It's less of an issue honestly. Don't forget that Ascension is 100% a threat too. Not only does killing with Bolt become much more viable, but you're also able to dig to your other win conditions much more effectively. SCM and Strix were never threats in the first place, so as far as what other builds would run, you're sacrificing TNN and maybe Tasigur? I was never enamored with either of those in the first place.

I can definitely see how TNN is not very good, since they will be maxing out on -1/-1 effects due to Pyromancer. Tasigur on the other hand seems pretty good more so at blocking and not dying to the same sweepers. Plus his ability does synergize well with Dig and Ascendancy.

LordOMJ
09-01-2015, 01:56 PM
I can definitely see how TNN is not very good, since they will be maxing out on -1/-1 effects due to Pyromancer. Tasigur on the other hand seems pretty good more so at blocking and not dying to the same sweepers. Plus his ability does synergize well with Dig and Ascendancy.

FWIW, the card name is Pyromancer Ascension, not Pyromancer Ascendancy. Obv. small thing, but it was going to keep bugging me if I didn't point it out. :smile:

I definitely agree with your first two points (being a great blocker and generally immune to non-terminus sweepers). There was a time where I ran a 1/1 split with Tasigur in main and SB. That said, I think that the synergy of its ability with DTT and PA is a trap because its casting cost competes directly with both cards as a different option that demands cards in your graveyard to use as a resource. Even outside of gravehate, you can only support so many graveyard dependent cards before each starts to impede on your ability to cast the other. Since I already shaved my list to 3 DTT (following Jizz's list) to reduce the frequency with which this happens, Tasigur isn't even and option for my build. I consider DTT to be a much more powerful card for the deck's gameplan, and I would always consider a 4th DTT before a 1st Tasigur.

Building from that discussion:
For those of you who've also transitioned to running a PA list modeled in some fashion after Jizz's, how've you felt about 3 DTT in the list? I've been having lots of success with it and shaving a copy feels like a reasonable deckbuilding choice for maximizing the overall utility of my high impact grave-based cards (DTT and PA). That said, I haven't tested with a full 4 DTT in a PA list so I'm not 100% convinced that the greater ease activating PA is worth losing the raw power that a copy of DTT represents.

H
09-01-2015, 02:11 PM
FWIW, the card name is Pyromancer Ascension, not Pyromancer Ascendancy. Obv. small thing, but it was going to keep bugging me if I didn't point it out. :smile:

I definitely agree with your first two points (being a great blocker and generally immune to non-terminus sweepers). There was a time where I ran a 1/1 split with Tasigur in main and SB. That said, I think that the synergy of its ability with DTT and PA is a trap because its casting cost competes directly with both cards as a different option that demands cards in your graveyard to use as a resource. Even outside of gravehate, you can only support so many graveyard dependent cards before each starts to impede on your ability to cast the other. Since I already shaved my list to 3 DTT (following Jizz's list) to reduce the frequency with which this happens, Tasigur isn't even and option for my build. I consider DTT to be a much more powerful card for the deck's gameplan, and I would always consider a 4th DTT before a 1st Tasigur.

Damn...I knew that too, just not paying attention.

Yeah, I can see how there would be a real tension between so many Delve spells, plus Ascension. I hadn't thought it through to it's logical conclusion though, thanks. Might play this in a couple weeks, depending how many FNMs I can make it to.

btm10
09-01-2015, 07:02 PM
Building from that discussion:
For those of you who've also transitioned to running a PA list modeled in some fashion after Jizz's, how've you felt about 3 DTT in the list? I've been having lots of success with it and shaving a copy feels like a reasonable deckbuilding choice for maximizing the overall utility of my high impact grave-based cards (DTT and PA). That said, I haven't tested with a full 4 DTT in a PA list so I'm not 100% convinced that the greater ease activating PA is worth losing the raw power that a copy of DTT represents.

I've done the same thing and think it's right. The Ascension builds are much more reliant on being able to play a bunch of cheap spells than the non-Ascension builds, and having Dig rotting in your opener is the worst. I've also gone to two maindeck discard spells to make turning Ascension on easier by giving you more proactive ways of interacting with your opponent. I'm not sure as to whether Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek is better, and I'm also not sure if I want a 4/2 Therapy/other discard spell split or a 3/3 split for Ascension, but the idea has been solid. I do think you want a singleton Snapcaster Mage or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to flash things back - Ascension is such a huge threat that we're already somewhat incentivized to take second copies of spells we've already cast to get counters faster and transition in a position of inevitability that the synergy between the flashback guys and Ascension makes them excellent cards to run even though they don't trigger Ascension by themselves.

All this being said - even with 1-2 guys (or even with a more conventional creature package of 4 Pyromancer, 2 Strix, 1 Snap) on top of 2-3 Ascension and 4 Young Pyromancer, you can be run out of threats by some of the BGx decks. I dropped a match to bUrg Delver last week because he boarded up to 4 Decay and killed, discarded, or countered all of my threats in a game I would've won had Decay been counterable. That's an extreme example and Decay is a particularly significant problem, but there's a serious concern that the more reliant on Ascension a build becomes, the more it wants something like Jace.

JosephK
09-01-2015, 09:04 PM
About Snapcaster : I think that the main argument against snapcaster is its manacost. Given the number of cantrips of the deck, we can't keep 4 lands untapped in order to snap cspell in Ascension lists or even 3 for snap bolt, most of the time. In theory, we shouldn't have more than 4 lands on the table :). But I agree with what was said before.

About the 4th Dig : Playing only 3 Digs has also to do with the weakness of Ascension to Tempo decks. So is the 4th Dig. In order to keep decent Sb plans, the 4th dig was removed.

About Daze : I'm personally quite interested in the Mentor Miracle list. It runs 3 Daze. I thought about the card in Grixis. I tested : -1 Jace -1 Pyroblast -1 Snare +3 Daze. It allows very nice setups with Cabal + Yp and it won me games. But not having Jace and having to Daze on the draw (rather than "snaring") lost me some others. Yp is not as resilient as Mentor ; and Jace brings a lot on that matter. Since Fire Ice costs 2, I advocate a one of daze in the main deck instead of the second Pyroblast.

Is the Aggro Loam MU manageable in your experience ? Mb it's time to go back to the old blood moon (but it's not that good vs them - they can still cast spells we can't deal with thanks to moxen - knight, library, choke, chalice...etc). On a side note, I would still play 1 MD Island if I had Blood Moon sb -the second island is only acceptable as the 18th land in my opinion (for which we don't have room). What do you think about the ascension plan in the MU ? (protected by cabal on decay)
Perish is also weak in the MU n because spending 3 mana (ie our turn) and not advancing our game plan is bad. I can't find a card that would be gamebreaking in the MU.. Any Idea ?

btm10
09-01-2015, 11:59 PM
About Snapcaster : I think that the main argument against snapcaster is its manacost. Given the number of cantrips of the deck, we can't keep 4 lands untapped in order to snap cspell in Ascension lists or even 3 for snap bolt, most of the time. In theory, we shouldn't have more than 4 lands on the table :). But I agree with what was said before.

The mana difficulties were why I started using littlest, babiest, Jace over Snapcaster. I'm also on 19 land and not at all adverse to hitting a 5th land drop. It makes playing around stuff like Daze easier, is better when you're trying to turn Ascension on, etc. There are also up to three Lands players at my local so I made room for two Islands and a Swamp so I can board two Blood Moons. It might be overkill but the matchup is atrocious otherwise.



About the 4th Dig : Playing only 3 Digs has also to do with the weakness of Ascension to Tempo decks. So is the 4th Dig. In order to keep decent Sb plans, the 4th dig was removed.

This is a factor too.



About Daze : I'm personally quite interested in the Mentor Miracle list. It runs 3 Daze. I thought about the card in Grixis. I tested : -1 Jace -1 Pyroblast -1 Snare +3 Daze. It allows very nice setups with Cabal + Yp and it won me games. But not having Jace and having to Daze on the draw (rather than "snaring") lost me some others. Yp is not as resilient as Mentor ; and Jace brings a lot on that matter. Since Fire Ice costs 2, I advocate a one of daze in the main deck instead of the second Pyroblast.


I've considered Daze, but it doesn't really mesh with my whole "being proactive" angle. The Mentor decks basically require Daze because Mentor costs 3, but I think we have a little more wiggle room on costs. I was definitely wrong in not wanting any Strixes, as they dramatically help in all of the tempo matchups.



Is the Aggro Loam MU manageable in your experience ? Mb it's time to go back to the old blood moon (but it's not that good vs them - they can still cast spells we can't deal with thanks to moxen - knight, library, choke, chalice...etc). On a side note, I would still play 1 MD Island if I had Blood Moon sb -the second island is only acceptable as the 18th land in my opinion (for which we don't have room). What do you think about the ascension plan in the MU ? (protected by cabal on decay)
Perish is also weak in the MU n because spending 3 mana (ie our turn) and not advancing our game plan is bad. I can't find a card that would be gamebreaking in the MU.. Any Idea ?

It's been pretty bad for me, but I've only played it twice. Punishing Fire, Knight, and Chalice are problematic, Blood Moon is ok but doesn't run away with the game, we can't interact easily with Loam once that comes online, and they have tons of threats that tax our removal. If I were going to play against Aggro Loam frequently I'd have 3 Innocent Bloods, at least one Jace, basics, and some and Strixes in the 75.

My current list is:

4 Young Pyromancer
2 Pyromancer Ascension
2 Baleful Strix
0/1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
0/1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time

4/3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3/2 Thoughtseize
2/1 Counterspell
0/1 Daze
0/1 Spell Pierce
0/1 Spell Snare
0/1 Kolaghan's Command
0/1 Fire/Ice
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroblast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Innocent Blood
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle

Slots that are up in the air are marked with slashes.