[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dice_Box]

http://i.imgur.com/706qEWw.png

Discord server for Lands can be found here (https://discord.gg/jthKsC5).

A history lesson:
Lands in Legacy is an odd deck to look at with a mix of older "Spell lands" and some newer toys, the deck historically has been more heavily banked in a control role, not a Combo one. The early history of Lands is the story of a deck born in the early fires of Ravnica. The deck came to be with the printing of what many now consider to be one of Wizards biggest Mistakes: the Dredge mechanic. But unlike many of the other Dredge cards that went on to spawn an unholy mix of terror and pain that would cause issues for all Eternal formats, one card stood out above the evil, a pure righteous gift that would offer both the fuel and the engine for another new deck. This card was Life from the Loam.

Lands in these early days was very much a control deck with the plan being to lock an opponent out of the game with Land Destruction or recursion of Engineered Explosives. Once control was seized Man lands, Barbarian Ring and even Mindslaver could be used to finish off a game. The issue with this though was that slow and grindy finishes added yet more time to end games that were already slow to start with and should the Lands player find themselves losing the first game and winning the second, there was often little time for a third. But help was on its way.

On the 19th of July 2013 the "Legend Rule" was changed again. This rule saw its most interesting revision to date. Under the old rule, Legendary cards with the same name would destroy one another as a State Based Action. This meant that no chance to respond to one entering the battlefield was ever available and you would lose a permanent should you or your opponent play another that shared a name with the Legend you controlled. But this rule was changed to give you the option to keep one of the cards should another enter play and should an opponent play a card with the same name, it would not affect you at all. This rules change opened up an interaction with two rare lands: Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage.

These two cards together would create a 20/20 Marit Lage for the low cost of only two mana plus these two cards. It turns out that having the option to make a fast 20/20 added some much needed speed to the deck and this combination was quickly added to the lands builds as a finisher. But added change was in the wind. Since now you could quickly and with a limited amount of resources create a gigantic dangerous Black Witch, the Lands deck could drop some of its more controlling elements and focus its resources on efficient resolution of this combo. In doing so it would hone its power down to a single focused point and split away from the RUG Control builds of old. A new deck was born, R/G Combo Lands.


Why should I play this deck over RUG Lands?
That is a personal choice, while Combo lands is putting up better finishes at the moment, I would argue that it is not in fact a strictly better deck than RUG lands and I would ask anyone that was thinking about picking up one of these two decks to test them both and then choose.

Ok Dice, at least tell me the difference between them:
This one I can do. Due to the higher count of Dark Depths and cheaper tutors (gambles and crops compared to intuition and tolaria west) RG lands tend to take the straight combo line much more often (around 50-50% along with the control line, counting both post and pre- sideboard games, while RUG lands plays 80% of the games through control). It means that in general the games will be faster. Also RG Lands is a little more resistant to graveyard hate. The weaknesses being, however, less stability (due to gamble and weaker middle-late games without loam) and less flexibility (the absence of maindeck engineered explosives). It brings some changes in match ups %. I would say, RUG lands are slightly better against control decks (Miracles, DnT) and RG lands are better against faster decks (combo and tempo with delver).


The Deck: (Jointly written with Rivfader (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?37442-Rivfader).)

The Engine:
These are the gas cards, the cards that fuel the deck and the cards that allow a Lands player to break parity with your opponent. These cards are the ones that either win you the game or let you turn recursive effects into game winning board positions.

Life From the Loam. (4 Copies)
This lovely card is the reason this deck exists, the reason that the deck can keep up with Blue tempo and also restriction on many of the card choices for the deck. On the surface it does not look like much but as a card that lets you recycle lands while also feeding your graveyard and its Dredge ability can often read more like "Draw three cards". It feeds itself while opening to you options at a much more accelerated rate than just drawing a card a turn ever could. The weakness is the cards dependency on the Graveyard and the fact that in a very quick time most of the contents of your hand will be known. But its recursion and the fuel it grants itself makes it one of the most powerful draw spells in the format. Its an easy four of in this deck.

Exploration. (4 Copies)
A must have. Exploration allows you to make an additional land drop each turn (Stacking in kind) thus transforming card advantage of Life from the Loam in board advantage. This is a very powerful effect when you take into consideration the amount of "Spell" lands you have and also the speed advantage extra mana will give you. Play four.

Manabond. (2 Copies)
Just as exploration, this card cheats multiple lands into play. Manabond lets you place all lands in your hand onto the battlefield, while all nonland cards are discarded. Manabond’s effect has the strongest synergy with Life from the Loam, but at the same time it’s drawback can leave you vulnerable if you don't have a Loam, or if your opponent has graveyard hate. This is the reason that manabond often gets sided out game 2.


The Tutors:
The glue that holds a lot of the deck together. While in the modern Legacy format many tutors have found themselves banned, these few are still legal and hold the deck together by letting you fill in the blank spaces you need to in most situations.

Crop Rotation. (3-4 Copies)
"Sac a land, solve target problem". Ok that is slightly hyperbolic, but it is still very close to the truth. With a mix of Spell like effects in many of its targets it can be the Swiss army knife of almost any situation and Life from the Loam can get back whatever card you were forced to sacrifice should you want it back. This card also can help power out the combo since both parts are lands. The card is not without issue though, the sacrifice is a part of it's cost. This means if the card is countered, you lose a land and do not get to fetch. It is a high value target and will often be earmarked for countering. This can be a weakness or a strength as it can also be used to bate out counters if you want another spell to resolve. (Like Gamble.)

Tip: Playing crop rotation at your opponents end of turn for one of the missing combo pieces, and immediately generating the token, will give you a possibly lethal attacker during your following turn.
Tip2: You can use crop rotation to save your life from the loam from grave hate, by getting horizon canopy, activate to draw, replace the draw by dredge. Punishing Fire can be saved in the same way, get Grove and activate Punishing Fire's triggered ability. Crop rotation also saves a single land from being surgical extracted, by getting this copy in the safe zone of the battlefield.
Tip 3: You can use crop rotation defensive versus wasteland. If a land gets wasted, you can sacrifice it in response as part of the casting cost of crop rotation, making the wasteland fizzle while you search for a land to put into play.

Gamble. (4 Copies)
Gamble is an amazing card, since it gets you any card you want, for 1 Red mana. It’s drawback, discarding a card at random is often mitigated by the graveyard recursion the deck is built around. Usually you can consider gamble as life from the loam 5, 6, 7 and 8, but it also gets you Punishing Fire or any land. You can also attempt to gamble for a card that does not recur from the graveyard, such as Exploration, Manabond or a silver bullet sideboard card. You can reduce the risk of losing this card by "Buffering" it against discard by filling your hand with excess lands. While not always successful, it is a trick worthy of trying if you really need an Exploration for example. This is why gamble is an important card versus bad board states or bad matchups postboard.


The Mana:
While this may not seam evident at first, Lands is often a Mana light deck. It does not need much to start and one the ball in rolling it just snowballs. Many of the decks Lands are played for effects that are not Mana related. This means that while the deck may have a land count in the mid to high 30's, less than half of that count is actually useful as a mana source on the opening turns of the game. Luckily, we also have a Mox, as if the deck was not already busted enough as is.

Forest. (1 Copy)
Your one basic in case you find yourself in need of it. Good against Bloodmoon, Wasteland and Back to Basics. Run one always.

Taiga. (2-3 Copies)
The dual land of choice for the deck. While different people have run different amounts of this card, the more accepted amount is normally 2. Some versions run 3 Taiga (instead of a Fetchland), to have a better balance between Fetchlands and fetchable lands. 3 Taiga will also help casting Seismic Assault, a possible sideboard card. I personally run 3 as I also do feel that since you can recur Fetches, having more Targets is beneficial.

Misty Rainforest, Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath and Verdant Catacombs. (3-4 Copies)
The "Fetchlands" cycle of lands offer a recurrable way to find any Forests or Taiga still left in your library. The deck never runs more than 4 and there are 4 with different names. Split the difference and protect yourself from Pithing Needle and extraction effects.

Grove of The Burnwillows. (4 Copies)
The second half of the Punishing Fire combo and offers both the colours you need. Easy 4 of. The life gain is often of little consequence as you hit in lots of 20 but it is still worth keeping your opponents life total in mind. Every life you give is 3 mana you need to take it away if you end up needing to burn someone out. Also, against faster decks killing them in one hit is important. Something to keep in mind.

Mox Diamond. (4 Copies)
Having 35 maindeck lands makes Mox Diamond an easy inclusion. It’s drawback – discarding a land – really isn't a drawback with Life from the Loam backup. Playing a fetchland and a Mox Diamond as a turn one play is an excellent start if you can follow it up with Life from the Loam. Mox Diamond fixes your mana as the amount of colored mana sources is limited, and provides you with green mana under a Blood Moon. Mox Diamond is also a great tool to play around Daze.


The Control: Burn
Punishing Fire. (3-4 Copies)
Punishing Fire is recurrable burn thanks to it's interaction with Grove of the Burnwillows. It puts an ability on the stack whenever an opponent gains life and you can pay a single Red to return it to your hand. This is useful since Grove supplies you with both these things effectively turning it into "Tap, return Punishing to your hand". Punishing fire is good because it can in all effects be placed into your hand with Loam. Since Loam can get Grove and Grove can get Punishing, this is an effect that sees a lot of play in Lands decks of all stripes and colours.

One life gained will trigger all Punishing Fire's in your Graveyard too meaning that if you tap one Grove but have a Mox open too, you can get back two Punishing not just one. If you think about this as well as the fact that most of legacy’s creatures are within tend to be two toughness or less, having a punishing fire engine going often mean you are in total control. Punishing Fire also deals with Deathrite Shaman which is often the only way a deck can interact with you game one. Lastly it can also be used as a slow way to win the game as you can burn someone out for 1 Life at a cost of 3 mana. This might seem like a steep cost, but it is shockingly affordable once you come to understand how much mana this deck can create.

Tip: You can destroy an active Mother of Runes by burning her during your opponent’s turn (she will tap to protect itself), recur Punishing Fire and burn again during your turn.
Tip 2: You can save Punishing Fire from graveyard hate by tapping a Grove of the Burnwillows for R, when your opponent passes priority. As this is a mana-ability which activates a triggered ability, so you can even do this when you receive priority after your opponent casts extirpate (which prevents spells or effects being played on the stack).


The Control: Mana Denial
Mana Denial is very much at the core of this decks plan, these cards are the ones that execute this strategy and lock down an opponent long enough for you to win.

Wasteland. (4 Copies)
If you do not know what this card does yet, go play a few games of Legacy with an unstable Mana base of Non Basic lands held together by Fetchlands. If you do know what this card does, you are likely playing an unstable Mana base of Non Basic lands held together by Fetchlands. Either way, I am sure you can guess why it is a four of in this deck.

Ghost Quarter. (0-1 Copies)
This card is often a Strip Mine against a non trivial amount of the Legacy meta. Even if a deck runs basics, it is usually 1 basic for each color used to avoid the mana screw that wasteland can offer. Ghost Quarter enables you to destroy these lone basics as well, enabling a total mana control. Against decks with multiple basics, attempting to ghost quarter your opponent out of basics is normally a bad idea. Some decks will bring in Pithing Needle versus wasteland, having a single ghost quarter circumvents this as well.

Rishadan Port. (4 Copies)
Goblins may be a dying deck, but their mana base lives on. Well mostly. Post is the complement to Wasteland in the decks Mana Denial plan. Normally activated in ones upkeep, this card can cut off an opponent from non instant spells with shocking efficiency. With this card, you sometimes beat Storm Decks since they can fetch basics, but never get full use from them. You can also use it to tap down Fetches in response to Brainstorms or Delver triggers forcing a sub optimal play from the opponent.

Tip: Versus a Sensei’s Divining Top, you should use the port-activation during the draw-step. The top-player will use top’s ability in response to the port-activation during upkeep, minimizing the loss of mana while setting up the draw. If you wait for the draw step, your opponent will have to pay anyway for his top, if he wants to set up his draw. After which you additionally port him.
Tip 2: You can get around decks with cards like Swords to Plowshares by tapping down their Plains in their Main phases and then making your Witch at the end of turn.
Tip 3: You can look for opportune moments to tap lands, like after they cast a spell in their first main phase to try and keep them off mana for things like counters, then in the Second Main you can Crop Rotate in a much less dangerous situation.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. (1 Copy)
The final piece in the Mana Denial plan this card gives you a way out to creatures you otherwise can not control. By stripping an opponent of lands this becomes a Wrath effect but often it is just another of the many thumbscrews. It will limit board Development while restricting the amount of spells an opponent can play in a turn. When used with Maze of Ith, this card can become an almost solid roadblock against many decks.
Sadly, this is a very expensive card with no equivalent replacement. If you want to play Lands, you NEED this card regardless of its price. You are just not playing a Lands deck without it.

Tip: Tabernacle will force your opponent to pay for his creatures during upkeep. So wait until he does before porting him. The same goes for playing Punishing Fire, usually it’s a good play to burn creatures during your opponent's upkeep, after he paid the Tabernacle costs for them.
Tip 2: Tabernacle is written in such a way, that the cost of paying 1 for a creature or be destroyed, is the ability of the creature itself. This makes your opponent the owner of the tabernacle triggers, and if he forgets to pay (for example by immediately drawing a card), all his creatures will be destroyed.
Tip 3: Indestructible creatures (as Marit Lage) cannot be destroyed, so you don't have to pay a Tabernacle trigger for them.

The Control: Damage Control
Maze of Ith. (3 Copies)
A complement to your already strong anti creature package with Punishing Fire. Maze holds back creatures that you can not burn out due to protection or size. It can also be used to give a kind of Vigilance to your Marit Lage token by untapping the attacking Witch after you dealt damage but while you are still in the attack step.

Glacial Chasm. (1 Copy.)
This card has a unique effect for a land: dodging all damage at the cost of sacrificing a land and a cumulative upkeep of 2 life. Crop rotating into this card dodges lethal alpha strikes or Price of Progress.

Along with Thespian’s Stage and Life From the Loam, you can continuously keep chasm into play. When the upkeep on chasm triggers, you can in response copy the chasm with thespian’s stage, and not pay the upkeep. The original chasm will be sacrificed, while a copied version without counters remains into play. Play a land as well. Next turn you can opt to pay the cumulative upkeep of 2 life, and recur and play the chasm. In this scenario you will lose 2 life every two turns, but remain on 4 lands. If you find an additional Thespians Stage, or an exploration, you will be able to avoid the lifeloss and/or to get more lands into play. Having such a glacial chasm shield into play, can save you from wasteless decks that attack for the win (Elves, dredge) or from decks that win through damage (burn, belcher). A chasm shield prevents you from attacking, in some cases you'll have to resort to Punishing Fire as a win condition.

It is also worthy to note that since the most common removal spell in the format is Swords to Plowshares and your deck creates a Creature with a power of 20, you can often find yourself at a very high lift total. In cases like this, putting a Chasm in play and then just forgetting about it for a few turns can be all the help you need to get ahead in the game. At the very least it should give the the time needed to set up the combo again.


The Combo:
Dark Depths. (2-4 Copies)
A legendary land which comes into play with 10 ice counters the ability to remove a counter for 3 colourless and to generate a Marit Lage when there is no longer any counters on it. Seems easy right? 30 Mana for a 20/20 kitchen sink? Well, add in our next card and things get fun.

Tip: Pithing Needle on Dark Depths prevents you to remove counters by paying for them, but does not prevent the token from being generated, as it’s a triggered ability.
Tip2: Stifle can counter the first triggered ability of Dark Depths, but this ability will immediately check again for counters, and trigger again.
Tip3: Wasteland protects you from wasteland. Your opponent cannot waste one of your combo pieces, because you could in response activate Stage, copy Depths and generate the token. But an opposing wasteland does prevent you from going off. Your opponent might play it in response to the triggered ability of Dark Depths, sacrificing itself and generating the token. This scenario leaves you with no combo pieces. Having your own wasteland breaks this stalemate up, because you can target the opposing wasteland, forcing it to activate it in response or have it destroyed.
Tip4: Evaluate when to make the token. You can create it during your turn, or at your opponent’s end of turn. During your turn, you play around a wasteland your opponent might play (see above). At your opponent’s end of turn, you avoid sorcery speed creature kill, especially in the form of Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Thespian’s Stage. (4 Copies)
This land is without a doubt, the most complicated one in the deck to use right. The amount of tricks you can pull off with this card is astounding and it is far more than half of the combo. You can use it to make a copy of any land on the table, regardless of which side it is on. This is useful when you need a Green land and your opponent has a Red or Green fetch on the table. Not only that, Stage can skip upkeep costs on Chasm while never opening yourself to burn, it can make extra copies of Port for additional control, you can clone lands being targeted by Wasteland and keep them around (Like Tabernacle) and it can protect itself from Wasteland by cloning and becoming a Basic land. Without a doubt the most versatile land in the deck.

Tip: You can copy a basic land, to make Thespian’s Stage immune to wasteland. You can even do this in response to the wasteland activation.
Tip 2: You can circumvent pithing needle with a copied stage (a forest for example). If Pithing Needle names Thespian’s Stage, it will not affect the copy since the copy is now a Forest, with a name to match and it retains copy ability. If someone would want to stop the effect, they would need to name Forest and if they did, they could not stop future Stages you play.
Tip 3: You can use Stage on opponent's lands making the Mirror quite a skill testing event since if someone puts a Depths in play, it can become a very tense situation.
Tip 4: You can clone and then use opponents Fetchlands.


The "Spells":
These lands are the ones that hold the rest of the deck together. Each has a unique effect that should be examined and thought over. Some decks run none of these cards, others run large amounts of them. None of them are needed for the core of the deck to run, but all help add something to the deck be it a smoother operation or an effect that your local Meta demands.

Horizon Canopy. (0-1 Copy)
The first of the decks two "Draw" lands. What makes Canopy special is that in the early game it can be used as a pain land offering starting Mana at the cost of a single life. This effect, while only offering one of the two colours we need, is no less useful in a deck that wants to power out green enchantments and spells as early as it can. Canopy also has another effect, that of card drawing. This is extremely useful when playing against decks with Deathrite as their main piece of graveyard interaction. Since you can use Canopy in response to the targeting of Life from the Loam and counter the removal effect of DRS. The drawback this card has over Tranquil Thicket is that it has to be in play to be used, that said, the bonus of having that extra mana source is a very big count in its favour.

Tranquil Thicket. (0-3 Copies)
Another draw engine in this deck. Uncounterable, instant speed and cheap, it is everything you need to save your Life from the Loam should the need arise. Its drawback is that it comes into play tapped. Still, when in the later stages of the game, this card can let you draw and Dredge (If you are looking for something like an Exploration) or Dredge more than one time a turn. While some people cut these for other effects, I personally would always have at least one on hand.

Karakas. (0-1 Copy)
A true "Silver Bullet" in this deck, Karakas offers you an out against Legendary creatures at little cost. Being something you can Crop Rotate into at instant speed helps too. A great inclusion in your 75 and something you should pay great attention to should your Meta call on it for your main.

Bojuka Bog. (0-1 Copy)
No deck in the modern Legacy format is complete without some kind of graveyard hate. Lands is no different. Bog gives you the option of instant speed wiping of a graveyard (When used with Crop Rotation) should someone be trying to do something you disapprove of, this can be anything from Reanimating something you would rather stay dead or wiping your own grave to counter a Surgical Extraction. The card can also be used as a sorcery speed wipe as well should the need arise. While Black is not the most useful colour in this deck, the effect is still strong enough that the card should see play somewhere in your 75.


Riftstone portal. (0-1 Copies)
A card gaining traction. While slow and painful in an opening hand it can unbalance a longer game by "Turning on" all your non mana producing toys. Also Loaming into it early can mean that you only need three lands to combo as Depths can make mana. It also gives you a way to make Green mana under a moon. Very good in a sideboarded match.

The Sideboard:
Lands is by no means a perfect deck. It is highly specialised to deal with fair meta's, creature based decks and it has game against some slower control decks. But it has some fairly large weaknesses too. The deck has a reliance on having access to its graveyard, it has little in the way of answers to spells on the stack and it really just does not like combo. Decks like Storm, Omnishow and Reanimator can cause issues while cards like Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb can cause massive headaches. Grafdigger's Cage might sometimes find its way onto the battlefield, but the card does nothing to the deck.

It is around these weaknesses that the sideboard is built. Placing high priorities on Enchantment and Artifact removal as well as taxing effects that force combo decks to slow down. Other options often consist of alternative ways to deal damage, large creatures or extra lands that did not make the cut in the mainboard. Let's have a look at the most common choices.

Ancient Tomb.
A card sometimes used as an accelerant for our own hate, a way to force a card though own own hate or to push a faster combo. Rarely play though some people swear by it, the main trick is that you can Crop Rotate into it on your first turn to drop a Sphere.

Karakas and Bojuka Bog.
If you do not have these cards in the Main, they should be here as they do belong somewhere in the 75.

Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
A useful card to fight the rise in Miracles decks. Boseiju lets you cast Loam though a Counterballance or a wall of Counterspells. When paired with Sphere or Resistance or Trisphere you can also use it to cast Gamble in much the same way.

Dark Depths.
Although this deck is built to control your opponent through lands, having a built-in combo certainly improved the odds of all lands-variants a lot. A postboard commitment to additional combo pieces has 2 upsides. As the combo is independent of the graveyard, an emphasis on the combo counterbalances the grave hate your opponent will board in. So while your opponent undermines the loaming engine, you can reinforce chances of combo winning instead of grinding out.
A second upside is that winning through combo is a lot faster than the long grind. Especially combo decks are difficult matchups because of their speed, and because you do not run Force of Will. So attempting to combo out first is a good game plan versus fast combo decks, as they usually don’t pack hate against your combo (safe from cards like echoing truth)

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
Sometimes you want to find it faster, in those games having a second can be a benefit.

Ancient Grudge.
Not a bad option against decks that run limited one shot Grave wipe effects. Against a Spellbomb or Crypt you can Gamble for it and then force an activation regardless on if you keep it in hand or not. It will also hit other problem permanents like Pithing Needle, Null Rod and Sword of Fire and Ice. Unfortunately it does not hit Rest in Peace, Counterbalance, Bloodmoon or Leyline of the Void, some of the biggest issues this deck can face. If run, it is good as a one of Silver Bullet but not great in multiples due to its targeting restrictions.

Krosan Grip.
Kills the hate, hard to answer, in our colours and can be cast off a single Basic under Bloodmoon. Really, what's not to like?

Ray of Revelation.
Another card you can use from your grave to hose hate. Targets Moon, Back to Basics and most importantly, Rest in Peace. To destroy Rest in Peace you need to flashback Ray in response to RIP's grave wipe tigger. (Yes, it is a trigger) While you will still lose your Graveyard, they will not get to keep the enchantment turning the card into a one shot effect not a continuous one.

Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst.
The two cards often used to hate on combo by increasing the costs of the spells. Increasing the cost of Cantrip, Rituals and other gas can cause issues that many decks have a hard time dealing with doubled by the Mana denial plan of the deck. The other bonus of these cards is their colourless nature, allowing ease of casting in the early stages of the game.

Chalice of the Void.
This card is the strongest, and cheapest card available to battle unfavorable matchups and for this reason many lists run at least 1 Chalice of the Void. But unfortunately it’s symmetrical effect will hit you as well when played for 1 shuting down gamble and crop rotation, cards you typically want to use in a combo matchup. Many lists add 1 chalice of this card, gambling for it and playing it for 0 against very fast matchups. Chalice of the Void is also good versus Miracles, where you can afford a slower play, and where chalice for 1 keeps cantrips and Top from being cast.

Choke.
Mana denial for only one colour? Can't be that good. Oh wait, this is Legacy and that colour is Blue, can not think of how useful as to how that can be. Oh and you can tap down those lands with Port? Well sounding better all the time.

Molten Vortex.
A small Seismic Assault you can cast early and with a less demanding colour spread. Useful against Blood Moon and not a whole lot else.

Pithing Needle.
Pinpoint targeting of many key cards that can cause issues. From increasing Mana denial by targeting fetches to stopping Vial and Mother, Top, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Grindstone, Deathrite Sharman and any Planeswalker. This is a fantastic card and running some number is suggested.

Seismic Assault.
This can be very powerful but also very hard to cast. Three Red mana is a tougher ask than it looks, unless you happen to be under a Blood Moon or you are looking to play longer games. It is also a plan that does not need the Graveyard to kill. This is not the most effective of uses but it should be noted as a possible use but in all honesty, this card is at it's best when you can recur lands, if your meta is full of Grave hate, this is not likely the best option for you.

Primeval Titan.
Primetime is expensive, but when it hits, it’s a bomb. If it hits the table, you'll get to search for two lands that come into play tapped. Depending on the board state these cards could be anything, but chances are high you want it to be combo pieces, because your opponent most likely cannot handle both Primetime and Marit lage. Primeval Titan needs to be answered, or an additional two lands will enter the battlefield during your next turn. This effect is independent of the graveyard, which makes Primeval Titan a very good card when Life from the Loam has been disabled or access to the Graveyard has been removed.

Zuran Orb.
While not a common sight in a build of Lands not running Blue, it is still a very strong card. It gives you the option of sacing Chasm every second turn for a net neutral cost in both life and mana while helping strengthen you against decks with heavy Burn strategies.


The Sideboard: (Black Splash)
Some players enjoy adding a Black splash to their builds, almost always for exclusive access to sideboard options. To do this, one of the "Flex" maindeck slots is changed for a single Bayou. Often these decks will be on the 4 Fetchlands plan too for the increase in access to this extra land. Cards cut for this Bayou are usually Karakas, Thicket, 4th Crop or the 3rd Dark Depths. This opens you to an interesting suite of cards, most of note is Urborg, a card that when it can be used is very powerful. The other options are as follows:

Abrupt Decay.
There is little I can add to the long list of praises heaped upon this card. It is more flexible than Grip and hits most of the same targets. Also, unlike Grip which can get stranded in your hand if there happens to be no target, Decay can be an answer to threats you might otherwise have a hard time dealing with like Goyf and Liliana.

Dark Confidant.
Your maindeck as a total CMC average of just over 0.45. Even if you slightly increase that number by adding in some two cost cards, you still look to average around half a point worth of damage each flip. Not bad odds. After you flip you then have the option to Dredge, useful when you are looking for something you can not Loam back.
Bob shines mostly in Control matches, where after they have likely removed some number of Creature removal you can bring him in and bury them under card advantage. If the opponent is forced to use removal such as Sword to Plowshares to stop your Confidant, that puts you ahead when you later start making Flying Witches.

Raven's Crime.
A very good option mostly seen in Jund Depths, a good card that gives you an added level of control. Spots are tight though and this card often does not make the cut as this deck can be too fast to need it.

Worm Harvest.
Another possible win condition. With it you can flood the board with tokens. These days a relic of the past as once it was quite popular as a faster way to speed up the clock.


Matchups:
Elves: (favorable but they can be faster than you)
Elves is a combo deck, which can sometimes kill as fast as turn 2. Moreover, there are 4 Deathrite Shaman, Reclamation Sage and sometimes Scavenging Ooze in main deck which are tutorable via Green Sun's Zenith. Inspite all that, in general it's a good match up for R/G Lands, and the reason is the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Elves can not interact with our lands in play and their manabase is weak with only 1-3 basic forests. They do not interact with our hand pre-board, so any hand containing a way to find Tabernacle is usually an auto keep. Fast hands with recurring Punishing Fire are keepable as well.
Remember the few easy rules while playing against Elves:
1. Find Tabernacle. It's your first step in any game against Elves.
2. Shoot with Punishing Fire elves which can produce multiple mana, watch out for Wirewood Simbiot which can save an elf from your fire.
3. Destroy their lands, so that the Tabernacle will finish off the remaining elves. Gaea's Cradle is always a number one target.
4. If you think you can spend mana for improving your position instead of killing some remaining peaceful elves, don't do that! Elves can combo off from nowhere. If you can kill more elves, do so always.

Most of the time Deathrite Shaman will be busy as a mana producer, that's why you can sometimes not worry about Loam or Punishing Fire in your graveyard, however it's better to keep 0 lands in grave to limit their mana sources.

After sideboard Elves do not offer much. They will probably side in some discard and Abrupt Decays, which present minor threat for us. However keep in mind that there might be Progenitus via Natural Order. If the Hydra lands and does not die from the Tabernacle, you can only race it with Marite Liege or defend with Glacial Chasm.

Watch out if you notice they are playing Crop Rotation. Besides Gaea's Cradle it can bring in Bojuka Bog and Karakas after SB. Also sometimes they have Pithing Needle and Meekstone in sideboard.

Spheres of Resistance and Chalice of the Void will make the match up more easygoing.

Side in: All Sphere of resistance, All Chalice of the Void, Seismic Assault, Dark Depths (if there's space)
Side out: Bojuka Bog, Karakas, 1-3 Maze of Ith, 1 Tranquil Thicket, 1 Manabond

Patriot Delver: (favorable game one, harder after sideboarding)
No interference pre board with the loam engine (play around Daze and Spell Pierce for resolving exploration). They run only non basics, which makes the mana denial plan very strong. Punishing Fire deals with Delver and maze with batterskull. Avoid having them play an (equipped) TNN with mana denial, at which point you will have to race them, or slow them down with Chasm. They have swords to plowshares to deal with your combo plan, you should only resort to the combo when they're tapped out of white mana, or if you have recursion for the combo pieces and you can afford being set back 2 lands. Swords to plowshares gives you 20 life, which helps you if you need to race them. Look out for a fast Delver deployment with disruptive backup along with burn.
Keycards: accelerated waste lock (wasteland, life from the loam, exploration).
They will side in: Rest in Peace, meddling mage, Submerge
Side in: 4x Krosan Grip, 1x Dark Depths, Choke
Side out: 2x Manabond, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Tranquil Thicket

Postboard is harder, if they have Meddling Mage, it can be hard to deal with (they will name Punishing Fire or Loam). Go for the mana denial plan with Krosan Grip Backup versus Rest in Peace.

RUG Delver: (favorable)
No interference pre board with the loam engine (play around Daze and Spell Pierce for resolving exploration). They run only non basics, which makes the mana denial plan very strong. Punishing Fire deals with delver and maze with Tarmogoyf. Nimble Mongoose can race you, Bojuka Bog and Chasm can slow them down. They have no interference with your combo plan, so you can combo when the opportunity presents itself. Look out for a fast Delver deployment with disruptive backup (stifle!) along with burn.
Keycards: accelerated waste lock (wasteland, life from the loam, exploration),Combo Pieces
They will side in: possibly Surgical Extraction Submerge, Pithing Needle
Side in: 1x Dark Depths, Choke
Side out: Karakas, possibly Rishadan port

Postboard your mana denial plan is again very strong, watch out for extraction. The Combo Plan is also strong, attempt to avoid having a forest on the battlefield (crop rotation, wasteland) when comboing to dodge Submerge.

Death and Taxes: (even to unfavorable)
No interference pre board with the loam engine. They run many basics, which makes the mana denial plan not so strong. Attempt to delay them with Rishadan Port. Punishing Fire deals with all their threats, and is your strongest gameplan. Destroy an active mom by burning during your opponents turn and again during your turn. Avoid having Sword of Fire and Ice equipped by burning the creature in response to sorcery speed equipping. THey have a strong mana denial plan of their own, with wasteland, Rishadan Port, Thalia, Phyrexian Revoker (Mox), Aven Mindcensor (fetchlands), so keep a hand with multiple mana sources. They have swords to plowshares, Flickerwisp (vial on 3) and up to 3 Karakas to deal with your combo plan, you should only resort to the combo when they're tapped out of white mana, or if you have recursion for the combo pieces and you can afford being set back 2 lands. Besides Stoneforge Mystic, they don't have card advantage. So if you can stabilize with Punishing Fire and Maze of Ith, you will take over. Tabernacle keeps their number of creatures in check, with vial dodging you mana denial plan.
Keycards: Punishing Grove
They will side in: Rest in Peace, Enlightened Tutor, Cataclysm
Side in: 4x Krosan Grip, 1x Dark Depths, Pithing Needle, Primetime, Assault
Side out: Bojuka Bog, Ghost Quarter, Tranquil Thicket, Manabond, possibly Glacial Chasm

Postboard they will go for Rest in Peace, you have Krosan Grip to deal with it. Krosan Grips can handle Vials, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice as well. Needle can deal with vials, mom, equipment

(Dark) Maverick: (slightly unfavorable to even)
They have Scavenging Ooze or Deathrite Shaman through Green sun's Zenith to interfere pre board with the loam engine. They probably run a basic for each color (2-3), which makes the mana denial plan decent if you can handle Deathrite Shaman through Punishing Fire. Destroy an active mom by burning during your opponents turn and again during your turn. If they get a Knight of the Reliquary online, they can interfere with all your gameplans. Knight gets big and can handle maze by fetching wasteland, handles the token by getting Karakas, removes the graveyard with Bog. Crop rotating for Bojuka Bog will reduce Knight to punishable sizes. They have swords to plowshares to deal with your combo plan, you should only resort to the combo when they're tapped out of white mana, or if you have recursion for the combo pieces and you can afford being set back 2 lands.
Keycards: Punishing Grove for DRS, backed up with mana denial

They will side in: Surgical Extraction, Pithing Needle
Side in: 1x Dark Depths, Primetime, Krosan Grip (Assault will probably be decayed or targeted by Pridemage, might be okay)
Side out: Karakas, manabond, Chasm

Postboard watch out for extraction, Primetime has a great impact versus this midrange matchup.

Burn: (slightly unfavorable)
Versus burn you only have two gameplans: a fast combo plan or hiding behind an eternal chasm while setting up a Punishing Fire kill (or have your opponent burn himself to death through Sulfuric Vortex). Dodge Price of Progress by crop rotating in chasm or in the combo.
Keycards: Combo Pieces, accelerators, Crop Rotation (chasm or combo pieces), loam for eternal chasm setup.
They will side in: all price of progresses, if they weren't already main decked as well as Ensnaring Bridge or Pithing Needle if they have them.
Side in: 2x Dark Depths, possibly chalices (I personally don't board in chalice), Zuran Orb and consider side in Krosan Grip for possible Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, Sulphuric Vortex and Eidolon
Side out: Bojuka Bog, Tabernacle, Ghost Quarter, Karakas and some amount of Wastelands

Infect: (favorable but they can be faster than you)
No interference pre board with the loam engine (play around Daze and Spell Pierce for resolving exploration). They run only 1 forest, which makes the mana denial plan very strong. Tabernacle and Maze of Ith are also very strong. Punishing Fire deals with all their creatures (they will protect them with Invigorate and Vines of Vastwood). They only have one Wasteland to interact with your combo plan, so you can combo when the opportunity presents itself. Look out for a possible turn two alpha strike, especially since Vines of Vastwood can protect the creature from targeted effects (maze). Look out for an end of turn crop rotation into Inkmoth Nexus or their single Wasteland should they need it. Sandbagging a Crop Rotation into chasm is a good backup plan.
Keycards: Mana Denial, Punishing Grove, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Crop Rotation.
They will side in: Surgical Extraction, Submerge, Pithing Needle, Karakas, Bojuka Bog
Side in: 2x Dark Depths, Krosan Grips for destroying Pithing needles on Stage/Maze and Inkmoth Nexus.
Side out: Karakas, Bojuka Bog and 2 Manabond

Postboard watch out for extraction, submerge, Karakas, Bojuka Bog. All your maindeck strategies are very strong against them, watch out for an alpha strike out of nowhere.

MUD: (favorable to even)
No interference pre board with the loam engine. They run only non basics, which makes the mana denial plan very strong, especially since they need this manabase and metalworker to ramp into expensive artifacts. Punishing Fire deals with metalworker. Keep them from obtaining the mana they need to take the game over. They have Trinisphere and Chalice, Chalice on 1 is annoying but only chalice on 2 will really harm you. You can lock up a MUD player behind his own Trinisphere with a recurring wasteland. They have no interference with your combo plan as long as you keep their mana resources low, so you can combo when the opportunity presents itself.
They will side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, perhaps Ensnaring Bridge or Tsabo's web
Side in: 1 Dark Depths, 4 Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle
Side out: Karakas, Bojuka Bog, manabond, Tranquil Thicket
Keycards: (accelerated) Wasteland lock, Punishing Fire for metalworker

Postboard they don't really have that much against you, you have Krosan Grip though.

Miracles: (unfavorable to even game one, slightly easier after sideboarding)
One of the hardest matchups in terms of playing, however not difficult to win if you know how. It's even in general, slightly unfavored in G1, and favored after SB. Their only viable option to stop us using Sensei's Divining Top + Counterbalance with a 2 cmc card on top of the library. It successfully turns off both of our engines: Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam. We don't have instruments to destroy Counterbalance in Game 1, however it does not mean that the game is unwinnable. We still have 8 Rishadan Ports to keep them in check. Also the card you need to keep in mind is Entreat the Angels, which can win on the spot.
If they don't have Top+Balance, try attacking their mana base aggressively. Tap their blue mana with Port. Perfectly, they should not have more than 1 blue mana available in their main phase. If Ghost Quarter is available, first destroy Plains, only after that continue with Islands. They have only 2 Plains. Ripping off all of their white Mana with Quarter and Wasteland will turn off their removal for Marite Lage and Entreat the Angels. After that they will be able to win only with Jace, which is a nice target for Punishing Fire.
If they manage to assemble Top+Balance and have a 2cmc card on top, our best bet is to manually find Dark Depths + Stage, waste or tap their white mana with port and make Marite Lage at the end of their turn. It's important to pay attention at how they rearrange cards with Top. You can use Punishing Fire after they put the 2 cmc card second from the top before their draw step to force them spend 2 more mana for putting it back on top and hiding it again. Don't play Loam mindlessly. Once they found a 2 cmc card, they will keep it on the top with all effort. You can try using Port or Wasteland on their fetchlands to force them shuffle and lose a 2 cmc card on the top or lose a land.
Also in response to their fetching you can try to Crop Rotate and force them to put Sensei's on top and shuffle it away.
Consider conceding the first game if their position is strong. Postboard games are a little easier and you will need that extra time to win.
After G1 expect Rest in Peace, Wear/Tear or Disenchant, rarely Blood Moon, Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle.
Krosan Grips and Chalice of the Void will serve well for you, as well as Choke and Titan if you have them. Use Krosan Grip on RIP or Top. Top is offten more of a danger than Counterbalance since top lets them filter their draws while Counterbalance will only rarely hit anything you can not get back should you need it. Keep Choke until they tap out and you can safely play it. It will win you the game. Chalice on 1 is also painful for them, because it turns off all their cantrips, StP and tricks with the Top, which works on all stages of the game. However, play your 1-mana spells before turning them off with Chalice. In G2 and G3 we have too many dangerous cards for them, but still the game will likely go to extra turns, so try playing as fast as possible against Miracles. Note that tapping their lands with Rishadan Port is sometimes better on their draw step if they control Sensei's Divining Top.
Side in: Krosan Grips, Primeval Titan, Chalice of the Void, Choke, Dark Depths (some players prefer Sphere of Resistance instead of Chalice)
Side out: Karakas, 1-2 Punishing Fire, Bojuka Bog, 2 Manabond, 4 Crop Rotation, 3 Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, also you can side out 1 Life from the Loam if you expect a lot of Rest in Peace.

Storm (ANT/TES): (very unfavorable)
One of the worst matchups. The only way to win G1 is a fast combo or total land control, so mulligan properly if you know you are playing versus Storm. If you kept an average hand but still alive after t2, attack their manabase with all effort and keep Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog to fizzle their Past in Flames or for Tabernacle if they play Empty the Warrens.
After SB mulligan hands without hate. If they discard your hate card you can still find another one with gamble. To keep the chances of gambling high do not make needless land drops.
Note that if you expect a lot of Storm combo in your meta, the optimal amount of hate cards in SB is 8 or more.
Side in: Dark Depths, all Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst and Chalice of the Void, Bojuka Bog if not in main deck, Zuran Orb, Ancient Tomb (to speed up t1 Chalice or Sphere)
Side out: Karakas, 1-3 Punishing Fire, Glacial Chasm, 4 Maze of Ith, the Tabernacle (against ANT)

Painter: (very unfavorable)
I can not think of a matchup that is as twisted as this. It is not as hard to win as Storm is, but it can be shockingly unforgivable if you make a single mistake. G1 you are likely going to get hosed by a Blood Moon without knowing it is coming. If you see a Mountain leading into a Top, this is the deck. Your only out is a fast combo, something they have an answer for. Main Deck, they run Ensnaring Bridge and also happen to be able to fetch it. They also run Magus of the Moon, like Blood Moon was not already a pain. If a Blood Moon is dropped, just go to game too, if Magus is dropped, Gamble or dig for Punishing Fire as fast as you can. After you side you're in for a chance. Keep hands with Grip, Fetches and speed. They will have brought in more Moon effects, Artifact hate, more Bridges and Rest in Peace. You need to try for your combo as fast as you can while holding up removal for a Bridge, a combo piece or a Moon. The one thing you need not fear is Damage, they do not often attack for the win and while sometimes it becomes the plan, they normally will just hit you with their Grindstone combo for the win.
Side in: Grips, Ancient Grudge, Dark Depths and either Seismic Assault or Primeval Titan if you have them.
Side out: Glacial Chasm, 2-3 Maze of Ith, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, 2 Manabond, Ghost Quarter

Mirror match (RG lands): (even)
In G1 the player who recognizes the mirror match first is highly favored. The unexpected Crop Rotation can be devastating be it for Thespian's Stage into opponent's Dark Depths, or Bojuka Bog or a critical early Wasteland. Other than that the game is about who combos off first or loams first. Thespian's Stage is the most powerful land here, because it copies Rishadan Port, basic Forest and Dark Depths. Because of that do not play Dark Depths for no reason!!! Try to keep Tranquil Thicket on your hand all the time to save Life from the Loam from opponent's Bojuka Bog. Do not hurry because the field for making a mistake is vast, however use time efficiently, the game will likely go to extra turns. To save your combo from Wasteland or Karakas you will need to waste or tap it first before activating Thespian's Stage.
There are two lines of play after SB: the control line and the aggressive line. To be more control you can use Chalice of the Void on 1 to turn off opponent's Exploration, Manabond, Gamble and Crop Rotation. Krosan Grip will help you destroying their Moxes and enchantments. However, you can keep Chalice for a better moment, if you have 1cmc cards on hand. Also Chalice on 2 can equalize the board position if you don't have loam and your opponent does. Overall the control line is very tricky and I would recommend it only to experienced players. The aggressive line supposes comboing off as fast as possible. It's good to be aggressive if you are on the draw and loosing g1 with little time left, and the control line is better on the play.
Side in (control): Chalice of the Void (1-3), Dark Depths, 2 Krosan Grip, Ray of Revelation and Pithing Needle (if available), Bojuka Bog and Karakas (if not already in Main deck)
Side in (aggro): Dark Depths, Ray of Revelation and Pithing Needle (if available), Bojuka Bog and Karakas (if not already in Main deck)
Side out: the Tabernacle, 1-2 Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, 2-3 Punishing Fire

Merfolk: (favorable)
Merfolk has no pre board graveyard interaction (they might have Daze for Exploration). Basic Islands and Aether Vial make the mana denial plan poor, Tabernacle can keep their amount of creatures in check. Prioritise on targeting their lords with Punishing Fire to avoid lords from reinforcing each other. If they don't have lords, wait for their turn to see what you should burn (watch out for a vialed in lord, buffering a merfolk beyond punishable range). They will start to race you with True Name Nemesis, but as they don't run wasteland and have hardly any means to deal with Marit Lage (some versions run Vapor Snag main), the combo will probably end the game. They can vial in Phantasmal Image to copy the token, as a surprise blocker after which they can attack for the kill. You can deal with Phantasmal Image by targetting it with a spell or ability (Punishing Fire). Because they're wasteless, Chasm works very well too.
They will side in: Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, Surgical extraction, perhaps Submerge or Threads of disloyalty
Side in: 2 Dark Depths, Choke, Pithing Needle (Aether Vial, Mutavault)
Side out: Bojuka Bog, Ghost Quarter, Manabond
Keycards: Combo Pieces, Punishing Grove

Postboard, they will have a better game against you with graveyard hate and token control. Resolving Choke is huge.

Reanimator: (even)
This is a deck that tries to win through combat damage with a limited amount of creatures, of which most are Legendary. They also need multiple turns to win (at least four) and have limited ways of dealing with the token. This is why you have a reasonable shot at winning. If you can combo fast, you should. Bojuka Bog through crop rotation can cut them of at the very start, Karakas bounces their efforts, mazes or chasm will slow their play down. They use their life as a resource for reanimate and Griseldraw, which is limited if you can avoid them from connecting with Griselbrand (if they play reanimate on Griselbrand, they can only draw 7 once). Depending on the build, they might have Ashen Rider or Tidespout Tyrant to deal with Marit Lage or your defenses game 1. Besides non basics they usually have only one basic swamp and island, but as they are very mana-efficient, it's hard to mana lock them.
They will side in: Pithing Needle (Wasteland, Maze, Karakas, Stage), Inkwell Leviathan
Side in: 2 Dark Depths, Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Pithing Needle, depending on the remaining cards sided out, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the void
Side out: Tabernacle, Tranquil Thicket, Punishing Fire (I personally keep Manabond in, might be additional spheres/chalices)

Postboard they probably have Needle on Karakas or Maze of Ith, which hurts. You have Glacial Chasm as backup, and have your own Needle(s) for Griselbrand. Your mainplan is like game 1, to combo first or control their game with Bog/Karakas/Maze/Chasm. Spheres can help you to slow them down or perhaps mana lock them . If you're on the play a first turn chalice for one is game breaking, as it shuts down almost any card they play. Be careful later in the game with Chalice for one, as it shuts down crop rotation and gamble as well. Inkwell Leviathan bypasses Maze of Ith, Chasm is the only card that can hold him.
Keycards: Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Maze of Ith (Stage copying Maze), Glacial Chasm, Crop Rotation, combo pieces

Team America: (Slightly Favorable)
Unlike other delver decks, Team America plays Deathrite Shaman and can destroy our enchantments and artifacts with Abrupt Decay, feeding Tarmogoyfs and making us slower. Thus, a combination of Deathrite Shaman with fast delver, Counter Magic, a well played Wasteland and Abrupt decay can take Team America to the victory. Luckily for us, such things do not happen all the time and usually the classic plan of destroying their nonbasic manabase backed up by the Tabernacle or Mazes works perfectly. Try killing Deathrite Shaman with Punishing Fire ASAP, because it not only messes with our graveyard but allows them to accelerate into more creatures than we can handle. Note, that they will protect it with counter magic however.

Side in: 3-4 Sphere of Resistance, Pithing Needle, Choke, Bojuka Bog
Side out: Karakas, 4 Crop Rotation, Glacial Chasm (unless they play TNN), 1 Manabond

The game doesn't change much after boarding. Things to note: sometimes they have Surgical Extraction and Bitterblossom which can champ our Marite Lage until we find Punishing Fire. With Golgari Charm they can regenerate Deathrite Shaman from Punishing Fire. Spheres will help with the land destruction plan, but sometimes it can be a double-edged sword if they destroy our Exploration and Waste our land with an attacker on the table. Sphere is very good on turn 1-2 and every time they have 2 or less lands, but play it with caution if they have some board presence. Choke is a viable option because Team America has a higher curve than other delver decks and also it implicitly binds their Deathrites.[/QUOTE]

[Dice_Box]

The Hate:
Combo Lands is quite a specialised deck that leans on a large number of Non Basic lands and a suite of unusual permanentes to execute it's game plan. This does have the effect of opening it up to some very unusual hate that is not often found elsewhere. Cards like Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Price of Progress and Tsabo's Web can be lethal against you. Here we will examine some of these cards in detail and what is the best plan against them.

Graveyard Hate:
Grave hate can be narrowed down to three categories, Single shot, Continuous and Pin Point. Each offers its own unique challenge and some are easier to deal with than others.

Single shot describes the one shot, Grave wipe cards that are most commonly found in Artifacts. These are also likely the most common form of Grave hate you will see leveled against you. The most common options tend to be: Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb and sometimes Bojuka Bog. Defeating these cards comes down to either having removal or making your graveyard look too dangerous to handle and forcing their hand. These can also be played around by simply not using your Graveyard, something you can do with this deck.

Continuous describes a group of cards that, once played, have a contentious effect on the Grave. The two most common are Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. There are also some other unusual choices like Yixlid Jailer and Dryad Militant. Unfortunately, removal is the only option other than just accepting that your Grave has been cut off. If you expect one of the two Enchantments, bring in hate. You will need it.

Pin Point in my view the most obnoxious class of hate. These cards are normally Instant speed spells or Abilities that are cast from hand or Creatures that have activated effects that utilise the Grave as a fuel source for their own effects. The more common cards in this list include Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze and to a limited point, Relic of Progenitus. A rare option that sometimes comes up is Faerie Macabre. Seen in older Burn lists, this card sees little play these days, but due to the possibility that someone with an older Burn lise might walk into your store I will list it for complication.

Playing around these cards is really the only option, meaning that head of time you need to recognise the decks that are likely to use them and plan ahead. Saving a Loam can be done by holding a Tranquil Thicket to cycle in response and Punishing Fire can be saved by tapping Grove and paying for the trigger it creates. Note that Extirpate's Split Second effect does not stop you from getting back Punishing fire since Grove is a mana ability, it can be activated without use of the stack but it will just hose Loam. Sometimes they just have an out and you will have to deal with that.


Land Hate:
Land hate is a part of Legacy, a check that keeps the format balanced and rotating, it is also a major part of this decks own plan. It is only fitting then that what we use on others would also be the sword that is often brought to bear against us. From single targeted effects to a range of wide and painful effects that can outright hose this deck, land hate offers a look into a mixed bag on one of the more interesting if now not often printed parts of this games history. The cards most commonly thought of when someone thinks about land hate in legacy is (Well if you have been around awhile) Sinkhole, Stone Rain and Wasteland. Two of these cards no longer seeing much if any play and the other a cornerstone of the Format. There are others though, mostly Artifacts and Enchantments that can make your life hard and it is these cards I wish to explore here.

Back to Basics to me have some of the most spot on flavour text in the game, some people own all the Duals others hose them for it. What this card means for us often is that we will only ever untap once until we find hate. A smart player will wait for you to tap out and then drop it, forcing you to make several land drops before you can remove the card. As a good rule of thumb, Basics are better than Duals unless you need that extra colour now. This card will slow you down, but it does not kill you. I have been under no pressure, had this card land and then just drawn into the combo and killed the player with this card. This is a rare event though and this card spells bad news and needs to be dealt with as soon as you can.

Blood Moon is just evil. If you think someone is running this, fetch your basic as soon as you can and dig for hate. I would prioritise this over the combo because often decks with Blood Moon can drop it on their first turn. You can gamble and go for the kill, just do not expect it will pay off that often against a Painter or Stompy deck.

Deathrite Shaman is a common problem if you can not kill it fast. It can be used to pick away at your lands, Loam and Fires until you remove it. Punishing Fire it if you can first, then worry about other cards.
Note: It has be mentioned that a trick to end a stand off against DRS is, if you have a Grip in hand you can target something with it, then tap Grove while Split second is in effect to get your Fire back. Useful and tricky, keep it in mind if you end up in this situation.

Pithing Needle seems mundane at first, but it causes headaches like you would never believe. Used mostly to shut down the Combo, it can also target Fetches, Canopy, Wasteland, Maze and Karakas. While it can never hit all these things at the same time, it rarely needs too and will play havoc with whatever will either answer their board state or what you need at the moment to advance your own.

Price of Progress is painful as it comes and Burn decks will almost always be running it. It is also found in the sideboards of U/R Delver lists, making them a touch on the unfun side too. Your outs to this card come down to three options, first you can Crop rotate into a Chasm to prevent the damage, the second option is that of Zuran Orb and the last choice is to Wasteland your own lands. Really not a great amount of fun. Burn is a hard match, sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.

Tsabo's Web is a colourless Back to Basics that really only hits you. Sounds great does it not? Luckily, it misses many of your mana sources and lets you stay in the game but it locks out many of your utility lands. It is seeing an uptick in play of late thanks to Lands strong placing in the format and I would say you should expect to see this card at larger events.

Winter Orb is a rare one. Normally seen as a colourless hoser for large mana decks like 12 Post, or Miracles in the sideboard of some Delver builds. A very rare card these days, it was once a lot more popular in control builds. I would not expect to see a lot of it but keep it in mind.


Decklists:



Deck Name: Standard list



Lands
Spells
Sideboard



Mana Lands
1 Forest
2-3 Taiga
0-1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Mana Denial
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

Combo
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths

Draw
1-2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy

Utility
3-4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
0-1 Bojuka Bog
0-1 Karakas




Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond

Spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
3-4 Crop Rotation
3-4 Punishing Fire

Enchantments
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

0-1 Bojuka Bog
0-1 Dark Depths
0-1 Karakas
0-2 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Choke
0-1 Seismic Assault





60 Cards
15 Cards



23th of May 2015 SCG Open: Worcester.
David Long


Lands
Spells
Sideboard



1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Dark Depths





4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam



4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
1 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Dark Depths





60 Cards
15 Cards



8th of November 2015 GP: Sea-Tac. 1st Place.
Jarvis Yu


Lands
Spells
Sideboard



2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Riftstone Portal
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
2 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm





4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam



1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Krosan Grip
1 Molten Vortex
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
2 Chalice of the Void





60 Cards
15 Cards




Other Resources:
Video Primer:
A video primer can be found here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds) if that is more your speed.

SCG did a Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/lands_with_david_long.html) with David Long, it is worth a watch due to the in depth nature of both the disscussion and Long's understanding of the deck.

Podcasts:
If you want to know the basics, but you are more of an auditory learner, try Legacy Breakfast's two part podcast (https://legacybreakfast.wordpress.com/2015/02/08/episode-49-deck-tech-pt1-rg-combo-lands/) on this build of lands.

Tournament Reports
In the next few days I will be adding to this section.

Videos:
Star City Games:
Kurt Spiess (Lands) vs Jesse Hatfield (BUG Delver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwdWj_RAUew

Jeremy Hsu (BUG Delver) vs Kurt Spiess (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv9B3vs7Sag

Kurt Spiess (Lands) vs Daryl Ayers (RUG Delver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdeQIuF-49M

Kurt Spiess (Lands) vs Chris Yarbough (RUG Delver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciC7HlXX7SA

Gerry Thompson (Lands) vs Ben Friedman (Patriot Delver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG1ICUvCMvY

Blake Patraw (Slivers) vs Nick Leaf (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz3qkkEDuIQ

Nick Leaf (Lands) vs Craig Spitzer (Reanimator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNFwOdU3KgY

Julian Knab (Elves) vs David Long (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKwMWZwr9v4

Joe Lossett (Miracles) vs Daniel Lawver (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW84Z_qBmHk

Marc Konig (DnT) vs David Long (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anuSJ9Jzzbs

Chris Andersen (Lands) vs Jack Fogle (Miracles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7ucy5mPVbY

Rudy Briksza (Shardless BUG) vs David Long (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2581FQVnOs

Nick Leaf (Lands) vs Craig Spitzer (Reanimator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNFwOdU3KgY

Blake Patraw (Silvers) vs Nick Leaf (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz3qkkEDuIQ

Gerry Thompson (Lands) vs Ben Friedman (Patriot Delver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG1ICUvCMvY

Andrew Jessup (Elves) vs David Long (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_7GBGaUFYs

Kevin Jones (Blade Control) vs David Long (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7IwzZPCr_0

Blake Sanford (Lands) vs David Long (Lands) (Mirror Match)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1-I5Ckbpyw

Andrew Boswell (RUG Delver) vs Blake Sanford (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIAhswr2kLs

Chris Andersen (Lands) vs Jack Fogle (Miracles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7ucy5mPVbY

Eternal Weekend:
Nick Miller (Infect) vs Kevin King (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9422PBtnvbo

Akash Naidu (Omnitell) vs Kevin King (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG-qKxNOQoY

George Flete (Merfolk) vs Kevin King (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=778lNNekWCo

George Flete (Merfolk) vs Kevin King (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZoQ5MBxUkg

GP's:
GP Lille
Leon Schulhof (Miracles) vs Branco Neirynck (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnn2QghUZ0g

GP Sea-Tac
Lisa Seelye (Lands) vs. Owen Turtenwald (Sneak and Show)
https://youtu.be/KNdrctoN554?t=7m10s

Eric Brown (Shardless BUG) vs. Jarvis Yu (Lands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONRIRL7n0pU

Jarvis Yu (Lands) vs. Martin Goldman-Kirst (Aluren)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEPFPZE7CGk

Jarvis Yu (Lands) vs. Brian Demars (UWR Miracles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caDJURkSAYE

Jarvis Yu (Lands) vs. Christian Calcano (Grixis Delver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TYfkQi9N-E

From our own gigapatrick:
Building a Fortress Playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Sample Hands:
Hand one:
Maze of Ith, Gamble, Misty Rainforest, Crop Rotation, Horizon Canopy, Taiga, Grove of the Burnwillows.

Lets analyze what we have here. Two tutors, some Creature control, a Draw land and lots of fuel. Seams to have it all yes? Well no. What this hand has is a plan, what it lacks is the speed to pull it off. While it is tempting, this is not a hand I would keep. For example, would you keep this hand if the Gamble was a Loam and the Rotation was gone? At that point all you have is mana and no plan and that is a very real risk when you Gamble for Loam. Granted, you can Rotate for a combo piece and then gamble for the other, but it too is a risk. You can do better on 6.

Down to Six:
Punishing Fire, Horizon Canopy, Grove of the Burnwillows, Life from the Loam, Wasteland, Maze of Ith.

So no tutors but a much better hand. While the last hand had a plan that was a long shot on the chance of a quick combo, this one is playing the long game. You can hold off most creature decks, abid slowly, with this hand. Let's say we are playing against someone who does not know what we are on and with that, form a plan. First, what Land do we want to play first? Due to the two mana cost spells, Maze is not an option. That leaves us with Grove, Canopy and Wasteland. Wasteland I think is the worst of these options, you want to bait someone into the card, not advertise you have it. You are hoping to be able to slow them down with a well timed hit to the mana base. That leaves Grove and Canopy.

Now we have to ask the question "What does each land tell our opponent?" Canopy makes us look like Death and Taxes on a slow hand, Grove means we will likely be put on Jund or Lands but is also transmits that our deck is playing Punishing Fire, this can edit their own moves. Also, of these two cards, I would personally rather lose Canopy to a Wasteland. Since they both make green, I think that is the best choice for an opening land drop.

Play Horizon canopy, Pass.

Our opponent plays a Misty, cracks Misty into Underground Sea and then plays Deathrite. We can shorten the list of decks we are playing against to BUG and Deathblade. This means that Punishing Fire is by far the greatest card in our hand right now and Wasteland is not too bad if we can remove that Deathrite from the table. The plan in my mind would be to drop the Grove, take a point off the Canopy, give them a point off the Grove and burn the DRS.

Turn two, card drawn: Tranquil Thicket.
Our draw step does nothing to change our plan, lay the Grove and go for the DRS with your burn.

Grove, Punishing Fire on the DRS, pass.

Our opponent plays a Bayou, casts a Goyf and passes back. So now we really have to options, you can Maze them or you can play Wasteland. There is no pressing need to Dredge right now and in my view drawing is more useful than Dredging right now.

Turn three, card drawn: Crop Rotation.
Not a bad pull that one, time to examine our choices. What does Rotation get us right now? I would argue not a lot, but it is a good option for later. So lay down the Mase or the Wasteland? With Maze we stop a hit from the Gofy, with Waste we put them back a turn. One could argue that we can afford to take the hit right now, the chance of causing issues with their mana overweighs stopping a 3 power Goyf this turn. So the question becomes; what do we Waste? Your options are Underground Sea and Bayou, meaning they are likely on BUG. I think the most important thing to do in this situation would be to stop them from fixing their mana. If they can not make another drop from their hand they will want to use cantrips to solve the issue. My target would be Underground Sea for this reason.

Wasteland, waste the Underground.

So now we still have two mana open and we have three choices, we can Loam and get back the Wasteland or we can return the Punishing Fire to our hand and Cycle the Thicket. The last option is sac the Canopy, a choice I feel is weakest. As it was last turn, I feel the play is not to Loam. Again we have more options off the draw and if we Cycle the Thicket, we give ourselves another target for the Loam.

Pass the turn.

Our opponent attacks, we take the damage and then he casts Thoughtseize. Change of plans then. Right now the only two targets he has are Loam and Rotation. It is best to cast Rotation and leave him only the Loam as a target, but what do we sacrifice? Right now, in my opinion the best land to sacrifice is the Canopy. It is only giving us one of our colours and it hurts us. The question is what do we go for? I think these are the best options: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Wasteland, Bojuka Bog or the Basic Forest.

Bog in interesting, but right now of no use, this is in my mind the least useful of the options. Tabernacle will turn the thumbscrews, but it does not produce mana and next turn we would like to cast Loam. That said we have two chances to do so with the Thicket in hand, so it is an option. Wasteland lets us take them to zero or one land dependent on if they can play one in their second main and Forest leaves us Wasteland prof. What would you do? I leave that to you.


Hand two:
Life from the Loam, Thespian's Stage, Ghost Quarter, Grove of the Burnwillows, Dark Depths, Manabond, Exploration.

This is the kind of hand I wish I always opened with and did not just draw for an experiment. What we have is almost the perfect hand. With one more mana in place of the Exploration, you would be making a Witch on your first turn and attacking with it on your second. Instead, you are looking at a turn 3 punch with a Loam in hand just in case you need it. The opening land will have to be Grove then leaving you to pause on what to cast with it, Manabond or Exploration. In this case, since we are not looking at a turn two win there is no reason to push Manabond here. You will want to keep it in hand should you need it. We would roll out Exploration and then follow with the Quater. The plan being that you would not wish to show your hand and spook an opponent into opening with land destruction.

Disruption against this hand is limited to Counters and Land control. Someone who understands how to play against this deck is likely to counter the Exploration since the speed it offers is a threat that once landed, is difficult to answer. The issue is, with the combo in hand, speed or land disruption are the only real outs an opponent has to stopping the creation of the token. To make matters worse, if the token can be dealt with by something like Swords to Plowshares, the Loam gives redundancy. This is very close to the perfect hand.



Credits:
This primer was a joint effort with help from a team of helpful people, I would like to thank the following for their help:

door: Proofreading, Matchup analysis and useful suggestions.
Lt. Quattro: Compiling and formatting the Video section.
Rivfader: Jointly writing the Card analysis, Matchup analysis, the Banner at the top of the Primer and no small amount of useful suggestions.

[Dice_Box]

To add:

As far as I can tell, the first placing with this deck is this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11400&iddeck=83296) list by Kurt Spiess on the 26, only a week after it became legal. I will see what I can find out, but at this point unless new information comes to light I will be seeking to credit him with design of the deck.

Add blue splash
Add EE: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16245&iddeck=121374



Deck Name: Name here
Player name


Maindeck
Maindeck
Sideboard



First half of main





Second half of main



Insert Sideboard here





60 Cards
15 Cards



Due to a lack of access to my PC right now, I am going to use this space for formating and then add to the main body once I have a mouse to use.

The Artifact Build.
There has been some pushes of late to fuse together the two most common Land's builds. The two decks, R/G and RUG are quite a distance apart when it comes to design, card choice and plans but that does not mean that one can not learn from the other. In trying to do this, some players have added small splashes of Blue to add Artifact recursion as well as a small suite of specialised Artifacts. There are also other builds that do this without Blue by using a different Artifact recursion land. We will examine each one now.

Academy Ruins
The most effective of the recursion lands due to the permanent effects of its ability. Unlike the other Ruins, Academy stays in play after use. The card does not come without it's issues though. The commitment to Blue can weaken your Mana base and Academy's effect does not place the card in your hand, it places it on top of your Library. Unfortunately, by placing the card on the top of your Library you may have to delay a turn before gaining the effects of whatever it is you are turning to use. Still the ability to do this repeatedly is nothing to scoff at. It also means you can stop yourself from being decked by placing an Artifact on the top of your Library even if you have no cards. If you do this with a Mox you can then play it, refuse to pay the cost and send it back to the grave and loop this effect over and over. A tricky way to win if you have to.

Buried Ruin
The Colourless recursion land. This offers a different set of effects while doing much the same task as Academy. First it does not demand the addition of another colour, useful as it can slide into a deck with minimal overall change to the decks skeleton. Secondly, while it does have the additional cost of having to Sacrifice itself in it's activation, the target will be placed straight into your hand. Useful if you are trying to do something immediately or time is short.

[Cards]

[Dosferra]

Awesome primer, great job!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Nice job, Dice. This is excellent work.

I hate to play against this deck (cuz it's a tough deck that hits from weird angles). But even ugly, mean, sneaky, insidious, treacherous things can be described with eloquence; that's just what you did. Unfortunately for me, this thread will only inspire more people to play this rascal of a deck.

[Chatto]

@ Dice_Box: awesome! Perhaps you could add a section for tournament-reports?

@ Lord_of_Rivendell: inspired... Perhaps, but it's an expensive deck, with expensive niche-cards, most notably The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. I hope, for your sake, you won't have that much new Lands-players :laugh:

[Morte]

Thanx again Dice and all the primer team, this is one of the best primers I ever read! (Edit - why did you keep the name R/G Combo Lands? I supposed you were going to rename the deck as RG Lands - as it is written in the primer)

I'd like to know your opinion about this list by Brandon Semerau, winning a SCG Invitational Qualifier (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15970&iddeck=119055). It's a hybrid between RG and RUG Lands, or better it's RG Lands with a very light blue splash of a single Tropical Island for an Academy Ruins toolbox of Engineered Explosives and Zuran Orb:



Deck Name: Lands
Position: 1


Lands
Brandon Semerau
Sideboard


Instants [8]
4 Crop Rotation (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Crop%20Rotation)
4 Punishing Fire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Punishing%20Fire)

Sorceries [8]
4 Gamble (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Gamble)
4 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Life%20from%20the%20Loam)

Enchantments [4]
4 Exploration (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Exploration)

Artifacts [6]
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Engineered%20Explosives)
1 Zuran Orb (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Zuran%20Orb)
4 Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Mox%20Diamond)
Lands [34]
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Academy%20Ruins)
1 Bojuka Bog (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bojuka%20Bog)
1 Glacial Chasm (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Glacial%20Chasm)
1 Karakas (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Karakas)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Tropical%20Island)
1 Verdant Catacombs (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Verdant%20Catacombs)
1 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Windswept%20Heath)
1 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wooded%20Foothills)
2 Dark Depths (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Dark%20Depths)
2 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Maze%20of%20Ith)
2 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Taiga)
3 Tranquil Thicket (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Tranquil%20Thicket)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows)
4 Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Rishadan%20Port)
4 Thespian's Stage (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Thespian%27s%20Stage)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wasteland)
3 Grafdigger's Cage (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Grafdigger%27s%20Cage)
4 Sphere of Resistance (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Sphere%20of%20Resistance)
4 Deathrite Shaman (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Deathrite%20Shaman)
3 Solitary Confinement (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Solitary%20Confinement)
1 Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Ghost%20Quarter)



60 Cards
15 Cards



The aim of the list seems to improve resilience with the versatility of the tools, at the expanse of the speed and straightforwardness of the deck, a sort of compromise between RG and RUG Lands. It runs 4 Punishing Fire and a very high 3x Tranquil Thicket, probably to support the sideboard (see below) and increase the probability to be able to save Life from the Loam from graveyard hate. Bojuka Bog is maindeck too, while Manabond is totally absent.

The sideboard is even more unconventional. Adding, maybe, 4x Deathrite Shaman to increase the :w: availability in addiction to Karakas and Mox Diamond, it gets access to Solitary Confinement. It's an interesting tool against bad matchups like ANT, burn and maybe S&T. The list supports it very well thanks to Life from the Loam in conjunction with a draw-land, and hence the reason for the 3x Tranquil Thicket. Tranquil Thicket is much better than Horizon Canopy in this context, allowing you to go on building your land setup even in absence of Exploration.

I'm not totally sure about the function of the 4x Deathrite Shaman: maybe it's just the best color fixer available, thanks to the versatility of being also hate against Reanimator and Dredge, and an alternative (slow) wincon when the game is stalled.

I don't like the total absence of Krosan Grip: it seems that the list just accepts to autoloose to Blood Moon and Rest in Peace.

Thoughts?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I imagine it's very difficult to set-up academy ruins without either intuition grabbing all of the pieces at once or having tolaria west to grab them over a few turns. Needing to use crop rotations and gambles to set up the explosives loop seems like a lot of effort that can probably be better spent just killing them. I'm definitely curious about it though since the complete inability to answer non-creature permanents in the main is by far my biggest problem with this version of lands.

[Loxmatii]

cool!
great job

[Dice_Box]

Thanx again Dice and all the primer team, this is one of the best primers I ever read! (Edit - why did you keep the name R/G Combo Lands? I supposed you were going to rename the deck as RG Lands - as it is written in the primer)

I'd like to know your opinion about this list by Brandon Semerau, winning a SCG Invitational Qualifier (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15970&iddeck=119055). It's a hybrid between RG and RUG Lands, or better it's RG Lands with a very light blue splash of a single Tropical Island for an Academy Ruins toolbox of Engineered Explosives and Zuran Orb
I decided on Combo lands because I feel like that is mostly what people will know it as when they are looking for it. I want a way to separate the two threads that is more noticeable than just adding two letters to the title. It is a descriptive and accurate title.

On that list, I would like to look into it, but at this point I feel it is more an oddity than a solid direction. As I have never played it, I would rather leave it be until I have either had a chance to play it, watch it be played or see some reports on it. I do not like that it leans more on Loam to get a secondary engine going, but it might be worth a chance. Let me test it and get back to you.


@ Dice_Box: awesome! Perhaps you could add a section for tournament-reports?
I will add this in the coming days, likely tonight after I get home from Legacy or tomorrow after Modern.

[Rivfader]

I'd like to know your opinion about this list by Brandon Semerau, winning a SCG Invitational Qualifier (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15970&iddeck=119055).
Thoughts?

1 EE and Academy Ruins is very random. Like SupremePINAPPLE sais, you have to invest gamble and crop rotations in this, but both cards are carddisadvantage so I doubt it's worth the effort. Running 2 EE seems better, you'd have more chance of naturally drawing one, and if necessary tutor for the Ruins.
You could drop the tickets and replace them with an additional TropIsle and two Tolaria West, for a more consistent hybrid RUG - RG lands version. That I've tried myself but it felt like a worse version of both RUG/RG. I think if you really want an allround solution, you're better off splashing black for Abrupt Decay (instead of a KGrip or a Pfire).

The sideboard really leaves me clueless, would be nice if Brandon Semerau himself would shed some light on this.

[Alexeezay]

Ye, the SB is really strange. Why the Solitary Confinements? Not even with a Savannah to reliably get it into play?
and why Deathrite Shaman over sth like Dark Confidant? What's the role of this card in Lands?

Some questions because I'm new to this deck:
1) Doesn't it make sense to play 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Ray of Revelation instead of just plain 4 Krosan Grip? (usual sideboards)
2) Also, how do you board Spheres/Thorns? Obviously you board it in vs. Combo, but do you also board it in every Blue matchup or only some?
3) Have you tested Faithless Looting? Is it definitely worse than Gamble?
4) Xenagos, the Reveler instead of Assault/Titan, thoughts?
5) Red Elemental Blast to fight decks like Show and Tell better?
6) Last one: Sweepers: Pyroclasm, Firespout, Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge to fight decks like Death and Taxes and Elves (can be tough sometimes)

[Dice_Box]

Ye, the SB is really strange. Why the Solitary Confinements? Not even with a Savannah to reliably get it into play?
and why Deathrite Shaman over sth like Dark Confidant? What's the role of this card in Lands?

Some questions because I'm new to this deck:
1) Doesn't it make sense to play 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Ray of Revelation instead of just plain 4 Krosan Grip? (usual sideboards)
Grip hits everything, does it in a near uncountable way and is on colour unlike Ray. I use a Grudge but I am leaning towards going back to four Grip mostly to just have an answer regardless of situation.

2) Also, how do you board Spheres/Thorns? Obviously you board it in vs. Combo, but do you also board it in every Blue matchup or only some?
Bring it in against combo, leave it out against everything else. There are decks it hurts and most of the decks it does nothing to, the main is already set up to defeat.

3) Have you tested Faithless Looting? Is it definitely worse than Gamble?
Gamble is a tutor that more or less reads "Loam 5-8". Yes, Looting is worse.

4) Xenagos, the Reveler instead of Assault/Titan, thoughts?
Its shit, Assault helps you against decks that run Moon and Titan will help you arrange your Combo. What does Xenagos offer us in situations where we are behind and need to catch up?

5) Red Elemental Blast to fight decks like Show and Tell better?
No space and it offers nothing little in the way of a plan. Drop an early Thorn and slow them while you combo. Be proactive, not reactive. If you want to be playing a more reactive build of lands, try Jund Depths.

6) Last one: Sweepers: Pyroclasm, Firespout, Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge to fight decks like Death and Taxes and Elves (can be tough sometimes)
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

[Rampart]

Here is some additional thoughts on what you said .

2. Spheres and Thorns - You actually want to bring them some of the MUC controls lists as they are fairly land light and there is an argument for bringing them in against Miracles. While I wouldn't bring them in against Miracles personally I know guys like Kurt bring them in in this match-up. I have seen resistor effects brought in against blue/red delver on the play as well which is interesting. I am not sure if it is correct but I think you could make an argument for bringing in these effects against some of the non-combo creature light matchups.

3. I tested faithless looting pretty early in this decks development and while I though it was actually good it just wasn't as powerful as gamble and it effects you game one win % because loam is so important in that plan.

4. Xenagos actually isn't shit, its just really specific. Xenagos is insane in the Miracles match up because the haste on the centaurs is super good against them. Strange but true. I cut it for Titan which is just more powerful in more matchups

6. Elves is a pretty easy matchup actually but it is something you should practice to get a feel for what is going on

[Chatto]

I'm not entirely sure how to put this, but here goes:

Two scenario's:

1) I have Dark Depths, with six counters on it, in play. My opponent casts Blood Moon. A turn later, I'm able to destroy Blood Moon; does Dark Depths comes back with a) six counters or b) gets the full ten counters, i.e. does Dark Depths remembers what state it had prior to Blood Moon.

2) There is a Blood Moon in play. I play Dark Depths, which comes into play with ten counters, then after the (if I'm correct) replacement-effect becomes a Mountain. I then get rid of Blood Moon, does Dark Depths comes back with ten counters?

TL;DR: what's the effect of Blood Moon on the counters on Dark Depths in different scenario's.

Maybe it's a stupid question, but I really want to have this clear in my head, so whenever this will occur during a friendly game or during a tournament I know what will happen.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Blood moon doesn't affect the counters in either scenario. They stay on existing lands and any new dark depths that are played etb with 10 ice counters even when moon is on the field.

It's not changing anything about the lands except for the type (basic mountain). The don't enter or leave the battlefield at all. It's kinda the same idea as putting counters on a morph, they still stay on the creature even after it's flipped up.

[Chatto]

Blood moon doesn't affect the counters in either scenario. They stay on existing lands and any new dark depths that are played etb with 10 ice counters even when moon is on the field.

It's not changing anything about the lands except for the type (basic mountain). The don't enter or leave the battlefield at all. It's kinda the same idea as putting counters on a morph, they still stay on the creature even after it's flipped up.

Thank you!

[Rivfader]

Some questions because I'm new to this deck:

5) Red Elemental Blast to fight decks like Show and Tell better?
6) Last one: Sweepers: Pyroclasm, Firespout, Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge to fight decks like Death and Taxes and Elves (can be tough sometimes)

I noticed some Asian deckbuilders experiment with cards like REB, Volcanic fallout, Golgari Charm. Personally I don't like the REB's versus the bluebased combodecks, they mostlikely counter you right back. Also, S&T players tend to board out some S&T for Through the Breach (to avoid cards like Ashen Rider), so your REB would do less than you'd think.

If you really want a sweeper, Volcanic Fallout is the best option as it's uncounterable. If you splash black, I like Toxic Deluge most as it sweeps everything (TNN as well).

[Chatto]

@ Rivfader; are you still splashing black? If so, how does your current deck looks like?

[Rivfader]

@ Rivfader; are you still splashing black? If so, how does your current deck looks like?

I still splash black for 2 Abrupt Decay. I moved one to the maindeck and shaved the 4th Pfire to clear up space in the sideboard. I also cut one thicket for a maindeck bog. As I have the habit of wanting to stuff too much in a deck, I run 61 cards main.

2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith

3 Punishing Fire
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
2 Manabond
4 Exploration

Which makes my current sideboard look like this:
1 Depths
2 Krosan Grip
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Primeval Titan
1 Seismic Assault
4 sphere of resistance
2 chalice of the void
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle

I think Decay is slightly worse than Krosan Grip versus Miracles (can't reliably hit top), can't target Sneak Attack, can't target high casting cost artifacts, and is almost useless versus Bloodmoon. I compensate with Seismic Assault (Blood Moon), Null Rod (artifacts), 2 Pithing Needle(Top, Sneak Attack). Abrupt Decay does have the considerable upside of being applicable versus almost any deck, and deal with cards too random to actively side against them (Needle, Meddling Mage). This deck runs some cards that often are sided out, like Karakas or Bojuka Bog (or Ghostquarter/Chasm), Abrupt Decay usually takes their place.

It is experimental, but it works for me.

[door]

Null Rod (artifacts)

I would not run Null Rod. Sometimes Mox Diamond is the only colored source in an opening hand.

[Rivfader]

I would not run Null Rod. Sometimes Mox Diamond is the only colored source in an opening hand.

I am aware that it backfires in this scenario, but it's just a 1-off. It's so powerful versus specific cards that I want to test it instead of Thorn of Amethyst.

[Dice_Box]

It appears I posted the deck in the wrong location, props to Nihil Credo for fixing my mistake...

[Dosferra]

It appears I posted the deck in the wrong location, props to Nihil Credo for fixing my mistake...

Well that was fast, must be some kind of record, going from New and Developmental to Decks to Beat.

[Dice_Box]

Well that was fast, must be some kind of record, going from New and Developmental to Decks to Beat.
No, Jund jumped right from New and Dev straight to DTB Jan 2013. This has happened before.

[Chatto]

Wow, nice :smile:

Also very entertaining how Nihil Credo calls this deck: (M.F.) Lands. Made me laugh very hard :laugh:

@Rivfader: Null Rod seems to create very awkward situations. Still, I'm curious as to your results. You must have a lot of Affinity and/ or MUD in your meta to test such a hoser :smile: Against which cards/ decks were you planning to board the card?

[Rivfader]

@Rivfader: Null Rod seems to create very awkward situations. Still, I'm curious as to your results. You must have a lot of Affinity and/ or MUD in your meta to test such a hoser :smile: Against which cards/ decks were you planning to board the card?

I see it especially applicable versus LED, Petal and Chrome Mox in fast combomatchups, as a source of manadenial instead of Thorn of Amethyst. And as a way to hate on artifact-dependant control (Miracles/thopter/Tezzeret). It's very good versus MUD as well, but I consider this a favorable matchup already.

I don't think the drawback is such a big deal (4moxes). We sometimes play chalice for one, even though our maindeck holds up to 14 1-manaspells. Similar as chalice, Null Rod is meant for matchups where its effect hurts them (way) more than you.

[Dice_Box]

If you really want to start leaning on things like Null Rod, I would trial that light Blue splash. having the option of getting things like that back would be a godsend. I am not sure if I will like that build, but I am going to test it next week and I feel like that kind of build would be best with that extra artifact disruption.

[Ingo]

Nice primer! Good to see this deck finally gets the thread it deserves. And a deck to beat! Congrats on the people who wrote this together!

Enjoyed reading it, just one thought, I think you're a bit harsh on yourselves concerning the matchups. I play it myself and usually feel that Lands fares very good versus the fair decks you've listed - favorability is in my opinion better in some cases, like the delver variants. Just my 0,02 cents though.

[Dice_Box]

I have had some other input on the matchups, I will update soon.

[Morte]

Sorry for the OT, but - this is the ONLY non-blue DTB! Sincere congratulations, be proud of that :smile:

[Alexeezay]

What about Titania, Protector of Argoth in the SB as an alternate wincon? Seems powerful enough.
The only problem I see is that you still want to use your GY with her where as Primeval Titan is nice to fetch the combo in the face of Graveyard hate.

[Rampart]

Its worse then Titan and still graveyard dependent.

[dafrk3in]

Its worse then Titan and still graveyard dependent.

I disagree on the first point. It's cheaper than Titan and comes with the possibility of winning the game very quickly. For example, it might be better than Titan against Sneak and Show, because if they Show and Tell in Sneak Attack hoping to win with Emrakul, Titania trumps this because of all of the tokens while Titan is too slow, as long as you're above 15 life. It's also important to note that it's weak to Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, not all graveyard hate. That said, I think that Titan is stronger overall. I'll probably try out 1 Titania in my sideboard in my next event.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Sick primer

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I disagree on the first point. It's cheaper than Titan and comes with the possibility of winning the game very quickly. For example, it might be better than Titan against Sneak and Show, because if they Show and Tell in Sneak Attack hoping to win with Emrakul, Titania trumps this because of all of the tokens while Titan is too slow, as long as you're above 15 life. It's also important to note that it's weak to Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, not all graveyard hate. That said, I think that Titan is stronger overall. I'll probably try out 1 Titania in my sideboard in my next event.Winning the game quickly isn't really the point of titan though. The point of titan is to give the deck a powerful win condition that isn't tied to the graveyard at all and doesn't always have to involve a token. If it gets to attack you've tutored 4 lands out of the deck which is usually enough to stabilize just about any situation.

I spent some time playing with a weird main deck configuration that dropped manabond and shifted some lands around to run 1 gsz, 1 dryad arbor, 1 courser, and 1 titania just to test her out in a bunch of games. Titania can very easily flood the table with power but the deck already does that using cards that are more synergistic with the main plan for less mana. Courser was honestly more impressive as an addition to the deck because it offered a lot card selection when loaming a fetchland continuously and let you know when you had the opportunity to draw a crop rotation/gamble/exploration instead of dredging. The life gain was also great in the UR delver days.

[Rampart]

I disagree on the first point. It's cheaper than Titan and comes with the possibility of winning the game very quickly. For example, it might be better than Titan against Sneak and Show, because if they Show and Tell in Sneak Attack hoping to win with Emrakul, Titania trumps this because of all of the tokens while Titan is too slow, as long as you're above 15 life. It's also important to note that it's weak to Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, not all graveyard hate. That said, I think that Titan is stronger overall. I'll probably try out 1 Titania in my sideboard in my next event.

Titania is worse then titan for a lot of little reasons and for one major one. Titan wins games by itself, it tutors up the cards you need to win, stay alive or dig out of a hole. Titan is independent of the graveyard to it is hard to hate out. You don't need anything additional besides to stick Titan to make it work and its a massive topdeck.

Titan has the same clock as Titania which is to say it kills two turns after the creature sticks. Titan adds lands to the board to to this, while you have to remove lands from the board to make this work with Titania which is not ideal.

in the example you list is one of the very few examples where Titania is marginally better then Titan, and that can be argued. When did they go off? turn one? or turn 3 or turn 8? I would actually like to have titan on turn 1 or 8 but not on turn 3. Do you have any lands in play when they emmy you because you have a bunch of mox diamonds? you don't just win sometimes and if they have grisselbrand in stead of Emrakul I think its better to have Titan.

Titania's got some upside, the differnece between 5-6 is not unreasonable consideration and has a powerful effect unique effect but i don't think Lands is the home for her. The titans effect is fundamentally more powerful in a vacuum and in play, its more diverse and can answer more things, its not graveyard dependent (which is where Titania gets her value from)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Could we tweak the deck to support Humble Defector and H.Path? Either you fetch him back or kill him with punishing fire. It could be an additional draw engine, so you make it harder to sb against you (not graveyard depended and your opponent will board out bolts) Also we already run crop rotation...

[Dice_Box]

Could we tweak the deck to support Humble Defector and H.Path? Either you fetch him back or kill him with punishing fire. It could be an additional draw engine, so you make it harder to sb against you (not graveyard depended and your opponent will board out bolts) Also we already run crop rotation...

We already have a draw engine that gains us 3 cards a turn. Defecter does not fit here.

[dafrk3in]

Titania is worse then titan for a lot of little reasons and for one major one. Titan wins games by itself, it tutors up the cards you need to win, stay alive or dig out of a hole. Titan is independent of the graveyard to it is hard to hate out. You don't need anything additional besides to stick Titan to make it work and its a massive topdeck.

Titan has the same clock as Titania which is to say it kills two turns after the creature sticks. Titan adds lands to the board to to this, while you have to remove lands from the board to make this work with Titania which is not ideal.

in the example you list is one of the very few examples where Titania is marginally better then Titan, and that can be argued. When did they go off? turn one? or turn 3 or turn 8? I would actually like to have titan on turn 1 or 8 but not on turn 3. Do you have any lands in play when they emmy you because you have a bunch of mox diamonds? you don't just win sometimes and if they have grisselbrand in stead of Emrakul I think its better to have Titan.

Titania's got some upside, the differnece between 5-6 is not unreasonable consideration and has a powerful effect unique effect but i don't think Lands is the home for her. The titans effect is fundamentally more powerful in a vacuum and in play, its more diverse and can answer more things, its not graveyard dependent (which is where Titania gets her value from)

I agree with you. I just think that Titania has enough potential for me to switch out my 3rd sb Titan for a Titania for a tournament, even though it's likely incorrect.

Also, to the Green Sun's Zenith guy, adding that package to the deck seems absolutely terrible. Manabond, by the way, is one of the more busted cards in the deck.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I agree about manabond... Like I said it was a testing configuration to get a lot of games with Titania in.

3 Sideboard titans? What does the rest of your board look like?

[dafrk3in]

I agree about manabond... Like I said it was a testing configuration to get a lot of games with Titania in.

3 Sideboard titans? What does the rest of your board look like?

I don't play sphere effects anymore.

[Rampart]

I don't play sphere effects anymore.

Really, mind sharing your board configuration?

[Chatto]

@ darfk3in; jup, please share your SB.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. I went to a local Legacy IQ yesterday and here's the report. Four of my six matches were on camera, so it might be worth a look.

RG Lands #6 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/userblogs/gigapatrick-blog/41412-rg-lands-6-scg-legacy-iq-at-game-swap)

[dafrk3in]

If I played in a tournament today I would play:

4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Maze of Ith
3 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
2 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Fling
1 Karakas
3 Krosan Grip
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Primeval Titan
1 Titania
1 Rishadan Port

[HdH_Cthulhu]

2 Dark Depths


Why 2 DD in your SB?

[Chatto]

@ patrick: nice seeing you in action and of course congrats! Could you share how you boarded during your MU's? Off topic: impressive beard :laugh:

@ dafrk3in: that's a interesting SB. Is your meta light on combo? Mind sharing your thoughts on some cards? When do you side in Blasphemous Act? Why the Rishadan Port in the side? I see you like to keep your spellcount maximized. Would you consider dropping a Maze of Ith for Rishadan Port, thus having a full manadenial-package?

[dafrk3in]

@ patrick: nice seeing you in action and of course congrats! Could you share how you boarded during your MU's? Off topic: impressive beard :laugh:

@ dafrk3in: that's a interesting SB. Is your meta light on combo? Mind sharing your thoughts on some cards? When do you side in Blasphemous Act? Why the Rishadan Port in the side? I see you like to keep your spellcount maximized. Would you consider dropping a Maze of Ith for Rishadan Port, thus having a full manadenial-package?

I think sphere effects are overrated. I played them main for a long time (over punishing fires) on MTGO, and they were pretty good. Eventually, I concluded that they were only really strong against storm, and not actually very good against Elves, Sneak and Show, Miracles, OmniTell, etc. The matchup against Storm, in my experience, is not as hard as people make it out to be. I think that Maze is really strong maindeck. I tried pre-sideboarding a GQ in for a port, and I liked it, so I've kept it there. Blasphemous Act is mostly there for Death and Taxes, but I'll side it in against Elves and any other decks that try to flood the board. Fling is mostly for Death and Taxes and decks with Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth combined with pressure. Choke is speculative, I'm actually thinking that I'll play Seismic Assault or Boil over it instead. Emrakul is for Show and Tell decks and mill decks.

By the way, I'm not claiming that these choices are optimal or even well-tested. Now that I've gotten my reps in with the deck and have a good idea of what I want to accomplish in various matchups, I'm happy to bring untested sideboard cards to big tournaments.

[gigapatrick]

@ patrick: nice seeing you in action and of course congrats! Could you share how you boarded during your MU's? Off topic: impressive beard :laugh:

Thanks for the compliments about the beard. I've worked on it a while.

I already commented on how I boarded for Miracles and for Sneak and Show, so I won't rehash those discussions. Here's a breakdown of my camera matches:

Against Shardless Bug, I never got the chance to board, since my opponent started off with a game loss. Boarding probably would have gone something like: +1 Titan, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Choke, maybe +1 Pithing Needle, -1 Karakas, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Manabond, and if I'd have wanted the Pithing Needle, -1 Tranquil Thicket. Karakas and Bog don't do much to Shardless, I'd lose Manabond because I'd expect some type of yard hate, and I'd drop the Chasm because it only deals with Tarmogoyf, which Maze of Ith already takes care of. I also think it is safe to lose one Tranquil Thicket (dropping the overall number of tree-sources in the deck to a still-reasonable sixteen) if you're dropping Manabond.

Against Elves: +4 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Depths, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Karakas, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Manabond. I wanted to keep both Manabonds in against Elves, but I felt that there was a reasonable chance that Steve would bring in Pithing Needle for Stage, in which case I wanted to have a solid answer with a reasonable chance of opening it in my seven-grip. Thus, two K-Grips. I opted to drop the Chasm with some reluctance, thinking that it could be a panic button against a quick Craterhoof Behemoth, but then I reasoned that if I had either a Gamble or a Crop Rotation, I would find Tabernacle first and foremost.

Against both Death and Taxes: +1 Titan, +1 Courser, +1 Pithing Needle, +4 Krosan Grip, -2 Manabond, -1 Karakas, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Port, -1 Tranquil Thicket, -1 Dark Depths. I dropped the Port because it isn't really that great against Taxes since they have either Vial and more basics even that Miracles, and though I went from 3 to 2 Depths after boarding, I think that that is correct, since they have so many answers to a witch token you only want to make her when you're either in control or you have no other choice. I've heard some people say they keep Karakas in against Taxes--but that doesn't seem that great to me. I'd much prefer to burn Thalia with a P-Fire than bounce her.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed the report.

[Dice_Box]

I am going to test the RUG Combo version tonight. (The light Blue splash.) I also want to mess around with my board but I do not feel like running two experiments at the same time is a good way to do things. I do wish to test dropping Spheres for an extra Titan, another Choke, a Boil and the 4th Fire. Will likely try that next week.

Will let you know how it goes.

[jake556]

Titans are 33 tix on MODO now Kreygasm. Should have kept mine :(

[Rivfader]

Hello all. I went to a local Legacy IQ yesterday and here's the report. Four of my six matches were on camera, so it might be worth a look.

RG Lands #6 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/userblogs/gigapatrick-blog/41412-rg-lands-6-scg-legacy-iq-at-game-swap)

Congrats with the results, Patrick, you sure did get lots of broadcasttime! Always nice to neuter Elves with Tabernacle and waste their cradles. And I second Chatto's beardcomment :)


I am going to test the RUG Combo version tonight. (The light Blue splash.) I also want to mess around with my board but I do not feel like running two experiments at the same time is a good way to do things. I do wish to test dropping Spheres for an extra Titan, another Choke, a Boil and the 4th Fire. Will likely try that next week.

Will let you know how it goes.

The last RUGlands-deck performing well on SCG (Tom Mcleod) was quite combo-oriented as well, with maindeck 2 Depths, 4 stages and 4 crops. If I would play a RUG list, it would look like this.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79339


Hi guys,
I have make recently my Lands deck and next week i try it in a little event in my city.
I know the 80% of the meta and this is full of aggro, MUD, BUG, Maverick, maybe a pseudo-reanimator with Worldgorger, maybe only one Elves/Omnitell.

I play the David Long's list of IQ - Washington.
This Sideboard's version, without Sphere effects, are good in my little meta?

2 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
1 Punishing Fire

Lands has a hard time with combo-matchups, and usually lots of sideboardspace is taken by anticombocards (spheres, thorn, chalice, ...). As you don't pack any of these, many combomatchups will be very hard to unwinnable. I wouldn't risk it, even if you expect (less than) 20% combo. I don't know your maindeck, but if there's already a bog and a Karakas there, I would swap at least these Karakas/Bogs in the sideboard for combohate.

[Chatto]

I am going to test the RUG Combo version tonight. (The light Blue splash.) I also want to mess around with my board but I do not feel like running two experiments at the same time is a good way to do things. I do wish to test dropping Spheres for an extra Titan, another Choke, a Boil and the 4th Fire. Will likely try that next week.

Will let you know how it goes.

What is a 'light U-splash?' or what do you consider a light U-splash?, or: what cards do you have in mind?

[Dice_Box]

Edit.
I really like it. I am on my way home now, will have a report up in a few hours. The list seems like more than a fad, it can be it's own branch. As long as you do not go overboard on the targets, Academy is a great addition.

DnT (w,l,l) (I fucked up, I likely could have had a real shot game three but I fucked it.)
Jund (w,l,w)
MUD (w,l,w)
ANT (l,w,w)

Sideboard
Instants [8]
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [8]
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Enchantments [4]
4 Exploration

Artifacts [6]
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [34]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
3 Dark Depths
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Primeval Titan

I am planing to move the Orb to the side, cut the Depths from the side and add a Manabond in the place of the Orb. I never found I wanted it and it feels more like the kind of specialised item you want in targeted matches.

I missed the 3rd Maze, having the ability to pull it from the grave and just lay it down, no questions asked is more useful than the hoops you have to jump though to get EE in play. That said, EE naturally drawn is shockingly effective regardless of your ability to recur it. But I doubt anyone did not already know that. Also having it in play and rotating for Academy did force a concession. I think that says a lot of what it can do.

Academy is the weakest link. Without a target it's not great and I did not have many targets, that said I am not adding more. Academy did prove itself in the Strom matchup though. When I had my Sphere decayed I just placed it back on top and replayed it. I did not think about it as a line of play when I was putting the list together but in play when I saw that interaction I just grinned. "Do not collect 200 dollars."

The other choices I can see for addition to the side are Crucible and Oblivion Stone. I like my list as it is right now, that and I don't really feel like either add a whole lot to be honest. Testing will happen though.

I think the one issue with my games tonight is that I got a lot of good matchups, I feel against Jund and MUD you can make the deck slightly worse and still be an overwhelming favourite to win. So beating them, it does not feel like this change mattered. In fact that is a point I wish to make, at this point I like it but I can not say it makes any of the more difficult matches that much better than they are. Against the good matches, the loss of Manabond and a Maze is quite a cost to pay to add something that doesn't necessarily make the matchup any better. Again I will test. Wiping a board of 2 drops against DnT though did make me smile.

Anyway, I will get into the games later on. That's just my thoughts right now. If anyone else wants to try it, please do so and let me know what you thought.



Edit x2:
Morte, thanks for the table lay out that I could copy but dam they are a pain to play with. Looks a ton cleaner though.

[Sockosensei]

The last RUGlands-deck performing well on SCG (Tom Mcleod) was quite combo-oriented as well, with maindeck 2 Depths, 4 stages and 4 crops. If I would play a RUG list, it would look like this.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79339

I'll vouch for that build as an excellent middle ground between the combo- and control-oriented builds. I've been playing a maindeck very close to it for over a month now and it has been effective. Although I'm of the traditional Lands mindset of "Don't win until the opponent can no longer put forth resistance," I have made a conscious effort to be more flexible of late: the easier access to a 20/20 has been a powerful tool which has won many games. Marit Lage is frequently available on T2 or T3, though whether it's the preferable play route depends on the matchup. I've got Ghost Quarter and Crucible in the main and have scrapped Zuran Orb for now.

The only other poster I know on this style list is Dosferra, from whom I got it originally. If anyone else is running it please post (here or in the RUG thread) to compare notes.


Anyway, glad you enjoyed the report.Great seeing you on camera and congratulations on the result. It would take me twelve years to grow that beard.
I watched one of the matches vs D&T, and other than a deep think or two, you appeared comfortable with the deck -- in contrast to how you've described yourself in earlier reports.

That is one of the most intimidating playmats I've ever seen.

[gigapatrick]

Thanks for the comments, Sockosensei. It felt great to pilot the deck that day, though upon watching a couple of my matches, I saw more than a few mistakes. Will have to tighten up my play.

On another note: My final opponent of the IQ, upon looking at my sideboard, commented that I was essentially giving up my Storm matchup by only packing six Sphere effects in the board. So, what do you guys think? Is six enough for the Storm matchup, or do we really need seven (or eight)?

[Rivfader]

On another note: My final opponent of the IQ, upon looking at my sideboard, commented that I was essentially giving up my Storm matchup by only packing six Sphere effects in the board. So, what do you guys think? Is six enough for the Storm matchup, or do we really need seven (or eight)?
I think your opponent did not see gamble as a way to get chalice for zero or one. Sometimes playing with 6 spheres, drawing multiple copies felt useless for me (like when you have already two spheres on the table), because casting them tied up mana much more than just activating port. There's also the wastelands setting your stormopponent landdrops back, so I think 6 is more than enough and other cards (like multiple chalice, choke, needle) are more useful.

[akeinath]

I've been playing a RUG list for a few months, and have been recently testing out Buried Ruin in place of Academy Ruins. In many cases I find it preferable, so I'm wondering if anyone else has tested this out and what your thoughts are. Also, it seems like it may be a more color-efficient solution for including the flexibility of EE without splashing blue for Academy. Anyone else test this out?

[Chatto]

Well, U is used to set EE on three, if I'm not mistaken. It takes out a greater variety of cards (Knight, TNN, Liliana etc etc)

EDIT: the more I come to think about it, it just doesn't make sense splashing U without using Intuition, but maybe it's just me. It looks like you are diluting your mainboard for just one or two cards. Is it really worth giving up the sheer power that is straight RG Lands?

[Dice_Box]

It felt like I gave up very little with that list I played and gained a lot. I will try it some more, but at this point I am very happy with EE and feel it's a valid addition if you wish to use it.

I understand the desire to pull back, with some tweaking though that might become my primary list.

I like buried ruin, but I also like having a fetchable option to set EE on 3.

[Sockosensei]

Well, U is used to set EE on three, if I'm not mistaken. It takes out a greater variety of cards (Knight, TNN, Liliana etc etc)


Don't forget Ensnaring Bridge as another major reason that EE on 3 is relevant. Getting the blue off a land also gives you a far more realistic chance (Mox) of reaching 4 colors to hit Jace.



Thanks for the comments, Sockosensei. It felt great to pilot the deck that day, though upon watching a couple of my matches, I saw more than a few mistakes. Will have to tighten up my play.We're all learning. That why video coverage is so valuable.
I was surprised towards the end of the final round that you didn't Krosan Grip the Vial@3 to force the opponent to cast Flickerwisp in the main phase before you made the token, or Punishing Fire the Flickerwisp once it was on the board to get your damage through turns earlier. It seemed you had inevitability so perhaps these plays weren't necessary, but with D&T I always worry about some combination of Cataclysm/RIP in a key spot and don't want to give them extra draws to find it.


On another note: My final opponent of the IQ, upon looking at my sideboard, commented that I was essentially giving up my Storm matchup by only packing six Sphere effects in the board. So, what do you guys think? Is six enough for the Storm matchup, or do we really need seven (or eight)?I agree with Rivfader. You've got Gambles for hate. There's also Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog on a Past in Flames line, or even just messing up their threshold in response to Cabal Ritual. Crop --> Tabernacle vs Empty the Warrens. For the R/G players testing Engineered Explosives, you've got the added benefit of using it to wipe out Goblins or any Lion's Eye Diamonds, Petals, or Chrome Moxen they play out early to beat Sphere effects. You also threaten to make Marit Lage and just win. At this point the only thing left is a Ghost Quarter for their basics. Finally, there's the benefit that many storm players underestimate Lands' ability in the matchup. You've by no means given up the matchup.

BTW, was that the same Ben who piloted Storm to top 8 at SCG Indy recently? It was a very impressive run.

[gigapatrick]

BTW, was that the same Ben who piloted Storm to top 8 at SCG Indy recently? It was a very impressive run.

I believe it was.

[gigapatrick]

Just a question: anyone else feel like you could get away with just three K grip?

[Dice_Box]

That's why I have been using for a while. Swapped the 4th out for a Grudge.

[Chatto]

I was experimentimg with 3 K-Grip/ 1 Ray of Revelation. Still not sure if I like it.

[door]

Just a question: anyone else feel like you could get away with just three K grip?

depends on how prepared you'd like to be for miracles match up. With other good miracle haters in board, e.g. choke, titan, etc. you could. However, going with less than 3 will make it painful against RIP in any deck.

[Morte]

Today I won a 51 tournament in Milan with this list (mini blue-splash for Academy Ruins):

1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
3 Dark Depths
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tropical Island
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

Sideboard:
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
1 Dark Depths
2 Primeval Titan

Tomorrow I'll write a report and my impressions on the blue splash! Good night :smile:

[Rivfader]

Nice job, Morte! Looking forward to your report.

Also congrats to David Long and Ralph Betesh!
Hope you guys post a little report as well.

[Morte]

Here we are! Report from MLL 7 in Milan on March 1st, 2015. It was my first tournament experience with the deck, I just tested for a few hours with my friends, the most of my knowledge of the deck comes from the awesome primer of this thread and the video reports included. Really a great job.

In my meta Miracles is probably the most popular deck and especially the deck of choice of many of the strongest players. Combo, mostly ANT and sometimes S&T, are present but much less popular; same for Burn, even if some months ago I faced Burn twice in the same tournament. Fair decks are very popular with all the usual archetypes of Delver decks, Elves, BUG Shardless, D&T etc.

The idea behind my tuning was to mostly keep David Long's fast combo route but to have more diversified answers against complex matchups. I added the Academy Ruins plan with a minimal pack of 1 Academy Ruins, 1 Engineered Explosives and 1 Tropical island. I cut 1 Taiga for 1 Tropical Island in order to keep the same amount of :g: sources, 1 Ghost Quarter for 1 Academy Ruins, as both are colorless lands with an ability sometimes not very useful, and 1 Maze of Ith for 1 Engineered Explosives: both are not mana sources, are situational answers, and anyway I'm still keeping 3 Mazes. So, I tried not to unbalance the general equilibrium of the deck in order to keep its strength substantially unaltered (the question is, is it also an improvement?)

The list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Academy Ruins
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

Sideboard:
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
1 Dark Depths
2 Primeval Titan


I wanted to leverage the Ruins plan with the sideboard, so I added some artifacts in the form of a Zuran Orb, since i considered probable to face Burn, the versatile Pithing Needle and the usual combination of Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void. I cut Thorn of Amethyst to make room, with the rationale that Ruins gives me more capability to keep my sphere effect and that anyway the main plan is dodging ANT (ehm). Lastly, I added a 2 Primeval Titan as my B-plan against hate and silver bullet against S&T.

Now let's go with the report! 51 players for 6 rounds of Swiss + top 8.

ROUND 1: GBr Nic Fit
G1: he deploys a couple of Veteran Explorers while I found the combo. I think my main effort here was not to play Tabernacle, really an easy matchup.

Sideboard: something like
+2 Primeval Titan (I was fearing Surgical Extraction on a dredged piece of the combo)
+4 Krosan Grip (I think I always sided in all my KG after G1)
+1 Dark Depths (more speed less control, see the plan to cut all Maze of Iths below)

-2 Manabond (often my first choice when choosing how to make room for the sideboard)
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (detrimental for Veteran Explorer, useless if Nic Fit is able to go late game)
-1 Glacial Chasm (useless)
-3 Maze of Ith (I want to be much faster than the beaters of this slow deck)

G2: he succeeds in Therapying away my Exploration and plays a Needle on Thespian's Stage, but he can't threaten me before I Grip his Needle EOT, deploy the combo and win.

1-0-0

ROUND 2: Jund
G1: He starts of Thoughseize into my Engineered Explosives. His Deathrite Shaman removes my first Life from the Loam and he let me discard some cards with Hymn to Tourach and Liliana while he's beating with a Tarmogoyf, but I naturally draw another Loam and his deck has no answers to the combo after I removed his Wasteland.

Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip

-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas

G2: He keeps a bad start with a Grove of the Burnwillows, a Wasteland and a couple of Shamans. Totally useless because I have Exploration and the combo in hand for a turn 2 20/20.

2-0-0

ROUND 3: BUG Shardless

G1: I have a modest hand of Manabond, Gamble and many lands. I open with Manabond go, turn 2 Gamble into Life from the Loam and I start deploying a stupid amount of lands. But, it takes time for me to finish the combo while his beating me with two 5/6 Goyfs (my dredged Engineered Explosives was pumping them another +1/+1). When he's attacking me for lethal I have a Maze of Ith and the combo ready, but for some reason I don't want to create the token and block the second goyf and I pick up my cards! Sorry guys! At the end of the match oppo will ask me what the heck:-)

Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip

-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas

G2: My revenge is terrible with an opening hand of Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam. He plays a Wasteland on my Dark Depths only to see a Crop Rotation for another one as an answer and he can do nothing else.

G3: He forces my Exploration but fails to find real hate. I pass with 3 mana + Thespian's Stage and a Crop Rotation in hand, thinking to dig for a Punishing Fire for the Baleful Strix he played the turn before. But I don't need it, he attacks me! Maybe an example of fair play after my misplay in G1;-) I crop into Depths and kill him next turn.

3-0-0

ROUND 4: Mono Red Goblins

G1: His start is not exciting and I calmly Punishing Fire the Goblin Chieftain before killing him.

Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle (Vial into Stingscourger)

-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas
-1 Tranquil Thicket

G2: I can't block his Goblin Lackey into Goblin Ringleader. I have Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows ready for his Magus of the Moon, but sadly the Ringleader sends 2 of them on the bottom of his deck and he draws no other hate before it's too late. He told me he switched Blood Moon and Pithing Needle for Magus of the Moon and Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker because more suited against the meta. I think I'm the only Lands player in the room in fact. Super sad!

4-0-0

ROUND 5: URw Delver
We are the only two players at 4-0-0 and there are 6 turns in total, so we ID.

4-0-1

ROUND 6: UWr Miracle
He calculates the rating and his sure to be in with a draw, so we ID again.

4-0-2

TOP 8:
UGw Infect (for people debating Infect in the Format & Article Discussion forum: yes he was successfully running Swords to Plowshares + cool sideboard options)
RG Lands (me)
BUG Shardless
URw Delver
UWr Miracles
MOST (I suppose few of you have heard about it - I'm explaining more later)
BUG Shardless
Stoneblade? I'm not 100% sure, but it wasn't something I was fearing.

So, I think the only matchup I'd like to avoid is MOST, since I have no idea how to fight it properly. And obviously... I'm paired with MOST :laugh:

SEMIFINALS: MOST
So let's introduce what is MOST. The acronym means Merieke-Opposition-Survival-Tradewind, where Merieke is the most popular legend of the game, Merieke Ri Berit, Opposition I think is not played any more, Survival has been replaced by Fauna Shaman and Tradewind is the old school hero Tradewind Rider. It plays a horrible GWub manabase of like 15 lands, with some forests, a lot of mana dorks, Green Sun's Zenith and a lot of utility creatures. We have an Italian thread here (http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27255), Google translate should help you. In practise, it seems shit but it's actually very strong if you can run it properly, because it has answers to everything. Also the 4-5 players in the world playing it use to customize a lot their toolboxes, so it's hard to exactly predict what they could do. I have one only certainty: it's a small-creatures based deck with a fragile manabase, I have to attack it as much as I can and not let it setup it's Merieke-Tradewind-Venser-Sower-whatever engine or I'll have no out.

G1: I have a higher rating and I'm starting with a hones Mox + Loam. He setups Mother of Runes + Quirion Ranger before I can Punishing Fire or Wasteland anything (all his lands are forests so he can bounce them with the Ranger), and then Fauna Shaman into Meddling Mage. But my last Loam before his Mage founds The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, he must sacrifice something, I have triple waste and he scoops.

Sideboard:
+4 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle (he has a lot of nasty activated abilities)
+1 Chalice of the Void (he has a lot of one drops)
+1 Dark Depths (I need to be fast)

-2 Manabond
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Karakas
-3 Maze of Ith (if he's at the point where he can attack me, I have lost)

G3: He starts of Birds of Paradise. I have a good start with an opening of Mox, Exploration, Loam, Grip, Depths and some lands. Turn 2 he exiles my Loam with Rest in Peace, plays again Quirion Ranger, activates her and plays Fauna Shaman. In my turn 2, I could Grip his RIP but I don't need it: I deploy the combo and pass with other 2 mana open. Turn 3 he thinks a lot. He discards Squee with Shaman and he can search everything, but he can generate 4 mana only during his turn since he requires his land drop, so he can't go for Venser. He chooses and plays Tradewind Rider. His plan is to untap Birds of Paradise with Quirion Ranger in my turn and block the 20/20, then the next turn he has an active Tradewind Rider. He passes and I generate the 20/20.

In my turn I untap, and then I Punishing Fire his poor Birds of Paradise :cool:

Now he's obliged to block Marit Lage with the Rider, but then he has not enough mana left to assemble another answer next turn, so he shakes my hand.

In top 4 we split the prizes.

So! Very funny tournament, I dodged the bad matchups all day like a pro (a couple of ANT were close to enter top 8 in round 5, one scooped to Miracles, one could not race Infect). The question is, how good is the Ruins splash?

It's hard to comment since I substantially never drawed it. When I had to tutor, I always tutored for the combo. The only time I drew Engineered Explosives oppo Thoughseized it, apart from that all I got from it was giving +1/+1 to some goyfs. Anyway, in almost all matchups Engineered Explosives would have been a great tool. It's mass removal against many decks including complicated matchups like D&T, and it's a very flexible removal, my only maindeck removal for enchantments and artifacts, in theory we could be able to destroy Jace too. So, I'd say Engineered Explosives it's the piece of the "triplet" which convinced me the most.

Academy Ruins is not totally terrible alone as a colorless mana source, for sure it's been worse than the Ghost Quarter it replaced in my list when I drew it during this tournament. But Explosive recursion is often game over alone.

Tropical Island never annoyed me, the only time when I had it and I didn't have red for the Gamble I wished to play next turn I drew a Mox and I had another land in hand, so it never hurt me in these 11 tournament games - no a statistical evidence yet... My honest feedback is that naturally assembling Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives is not very probable, and Tropical Island is only useful in that case and only if you don't have any Mox. And, at that point, or you already have it in play, or you should tutor or fetch for it (I only play 3 fetchlands ATM).

In conclusion, at the moment I suggest you to look at David Long's list before going to a tournament with the Ruins splash! But personally I'll go on testing it, I cannot stop after an almost-perfect win :smile:



Lands by David Long
2nd @ SCG Baltimore March 1, 2015


4 Mox Diamond (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Mox%20Diamond)
4 Exploration (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Exploration)
2 Manabond (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Manabond)
4 Crop Rotation (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Crop%20Rotation)
4 Punishing Fire (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Punishing%20Fire)
4 Gamble (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Gamble)
4 Life from the Loam (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Life%20from%20the%20Loam)
1 Forest (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Forest)
1 Bojuka Bog (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Bojuka%20Bog)
1 Glacial Chasm (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Glacial%20Chasm)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows)
3 Maze of Ith (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Maze%20of%20Ith)
1 Misty Rainforest (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Misty%20Rainforest)
4 Rishadan Port (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Rishadan%20Port)
2 Taiga (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Taiga)
4 Thespian's Stage (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Thespian%27s%20Stage)
2 Tranquil Thicket (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Tranquil%20Thicket)
1 Verdant Catacombs (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Verdant%20Catacombs)
4 Wasteland (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Wasteland)
1 Windswept Heath (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Windswept%20Heath)
1 Wooded Foothills (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Wooded%20Foothills)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale)
3 Dark Depths (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Dark%20Depths)
Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Chalice%20of%20the%20Void)
4 Sphere of Resistance (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Sphere%20of%20Resistance)
2 Thorn of Amethyst (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Thorn%20of%20Amethyst)
2 Seismic Assault (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Seismic%20Assault)
4 Krosan Grip (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Krosan%20Grip)
1 Karakas (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Karakas)
1 Dark Depths (http://ws.decktutor.com/tooltip/v1/go?a=tmp&game=mtg&name=Dark%20Depths)



Just a couple of comments about David's list:

He kept the fast combo plan (all tutors, 6 enchantment acceleration, 4 Stages + 3 Depths main, 4th Depths in side) and I totally agree with him. I almost always planned to combo ASAP and I almost always succeed in comboing between turn 2 and turn 5
He switched Karakas and Bojuka Bog, Bog main and Karakas in side. Probably correct in my meta too.
He's fine with 2 Taiga, like me (but he has 4 fetchlands)
He's fine with 3 Maze of Ith, like me
He cut Ghost Quarter for better stuff, like me
He's using the space for a 2nd Tranquil Thicket and a full set of Punishing Fire
Sideboard:

he's going for a very straight plan instead of versatility: no Zuran Orb/Pithing Needle but 7 mana lock artifacts (if we fight ANT let's fight seriously)
full set of Grips (totally agree)
mandatory Karakas
4th Depth for faster combo plan
2 B-plan sideboard cards (I agree, one is luckster), he prefers Seismic Assault over Titan. It's easier to play against Moon effects but you don't have silver bullets against S&T. I should analyze where the meta is going


Thank you for reading guys, let's go on improving this amazing deck!

[Chatto]

Congrats to all! I'm still not convinced about the U-splash, and you just summed up al my doubts, Morte!

Also, I would love to read reports of David Long and Ralph Betesh. I like how they both just cut the crap and went for the all-in.

[Morte]

+1! (Blue splash not exciting, need more David Long and Rakph Betesh!) I suppose I posted my reply right while you were writing, my tournament report is above your post :smile:

[Chatto]

Jup, so I had to edit :smile:

[Morte]

I'm especially interested in feedback about sideboarding:

Outside of the obvious matchup tuning, I usually board in all Grips, I board out the Manabonds and, if the opponent attacks with creatures but is much slower then how I expect to be, I board out Glacial Chasm and some Maze of Ith. Do you agree?
What B-plan wincon do you prefer? Seismic Assault, Primeval Titan, other? Why?
I also would like other opinions about when siding in Seismic Assault / Primeval Titan (always when we're facing Moon or Rest in Peace, only if we see Surgical Extraction / Extirpate, etc.)
How do you board against Elves? Do you board in Sphere effects?
Do you agree with the sideboard choices in my report?
Do you prefer a straight forward sideboard plan focused on the main issues or do you value versatility more?

[sampi]

I'm especially interested in feedback about sideboarding:

Outside of the obvious matchup tuning, I usually board in all Grips, I board out the Manabonds and, if the opponent attacks with creatures but is much slower then how I expect to be, I board out Glacial Chasm and some Maze of Ith. Do you agree?
What B-plan wincon do you prefer? Seismic Assault, Primeval Titan, other? Why?
I also would like other opinions about when siding in Seismic Assault / Primeval Titan (always when we're facing Moon or Rest in Peace, only if we see Surgical Extraction / Extirpate, etc.)
How do you board against Elves? Do you board in Sphere effects?
Do you agree with the sideboard choices in my report?
Do you prefer a straight forward sideboard plan focused on the main issues or do you value versatility more?


Would running living wish over gamble solve these problems?

Even though it's slower and lets the opponent know what you are doing, it helps you vs extirpate type cards and you can also get your primeval titan. And because your already in the colours, you could also put goblin sharpshooter vs green mana dorks. Even an acidic slime vs blood moon. I think it would give the deck better G1's versus tough matchups. But yes not being able to get loam with it is pretty bad.

[door]

I'm especially interested in feedback about sideboarding:

Outside of the obvious matchup tuning, I usually board in all Grips, I board out the Manabonds and, if the opponent attacks with creatures but is much slower then how I expect to be, I board out Glacial Chasm and some Maze of Ith. Do you agree?
What B-plan wincon do you prefer? Seismic Assault, Primeval Titan, other? Why?
I also would like other opinions about when siding in Seismic Assault / Primeval Titan (always when we're facing Moon or Rest in Peace, only if we see Surgical Extraction / Extirpate, etc.)
How do you board against Elves? Do you board in Sphere effects?
Do you agree with the sideboard choices in my report?
Do you prefer a straight forward sideboard plan focused on the main issues or do you value versatility more?


Hi, Morte. Congratulations with a good finish! I'll try to answer some of your questions.
1. I would not go all in with 4 Krosan Grips unless you are 100% sure they find the targets. More or less agreed about CHasm and Mazes.
2. I prefer both. I side Assault as an extra creature removal against such decks as Elves and DnT, and both Titan and Assault when I expect heavy hate or long games.
3. Assault is not sided if you expect Surgical Extraction, otherwise see 2.
4. Recently I've sent the Elves matchup write up to Dice. Hope he inserts it in the primer soon. My SB plan is:
Side in: All Sphere of resistance, All Chalice of the Void, Seismic Assault, Dark Depths (if there's space)
Side out: Bojuka Bog, Karakas, 1-3 Maze of Ith, 1 Tranquil Thicket, 1 Manabond (I prefer to leave 1 as a Gamble target)
5. I do not agree with 4 Krosan Grips against Jund. Were you 100% sure you would face Pithing Needle in game 2? Still, you had EE as an answer.
6. Versatility is good when you do not know what to expect. Otherwise a straight plan is prefered. Usually you have 1 chance to gamble for a card, the rest of the game you loam and the chance to naturally draw those versatile singletones is low, even with a cycling Tranquil Thicket.

And my 5 rubles about the blue splash. I would recommend to start with a classic build and then decide about a splash. I play classic and I think the blue splash is not necessary. The worst thing about that is that you loose some really good utility lands for including Academy Ruins and EE. First of all, I mean Ghost Quarter, an irreplaceable land against Miracles. Also before blue I would go black for SB Abrupt Decays, but even that is an extreme measure.

[Dice_Box]

All new additions to the primer (Like Elves and new lists as well as Patrick's links) go up when I get out of bed tomorrow.

Just got home from Legacy, 4-0 against Miracles, Infect, DnT and ANT. (That last match is becoming a ritual.) I was playing an adapted splash list and I won a game against DnT with a single shot EE. Outside of a timely top deck, the only other time I used it was to play it against Infect but not blow it. I killed him before I was ever in any risk. So far I have loved it when I have seen it and I am thinking of running two, but it's not yet run its course in testing and I might give up on this little experiment later.

I like the strengths it brings to the long game, I am not sure it is it worth it though. To this point I have not been punished for running it so I shall continue. If I was to go into a large event tomorrow though, I feel like I would run a more standard list.

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives

Spells
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

Enchantments
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

Mana Lands
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Mana Denial
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Combo
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths

Draw
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy

Utility
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
1 Zuran Orb
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke

As I am sure you can see, I blindly stole and adapted the sideboard from Morte. In my meta Choke is more effective than Titan and I did not regret the choice. I also learnt an interesting trick where if you play a Chasm, Rotate it in response to its trigger, you can find a land and sac it while keeping all you other lands in play. This proved handy as I needed to keep my Mana sources available for next turn and I rotated into the missing combo piece, saced it and Loamed it next turn. I saw the play from my opening hand, I just had to check with a Judge first to make sure it would work how I hoped it would. It does and it's handy even though I am sure it will almost never come up.

Highlight of the night, getting paired against Omnishow and then getting a repair called and going up against DnT instead. Better to be lucky...

[Chatto]

(...)I also learnt an interesting trick where if you play a Chasm, Rotate it in response to its trigger, you can find a land and sac it while keeping all you other lands in play. This proved handy as I needed to keep my Mana sources available for next turn and I rotated into the missing combo piece, saced it and Loamed it next turn. I saw the play from my opening hand, I just had to check with a Judge first to make sure it would work how I hoped it would. It does and it's handy even though I am sure it will almost never come up.

Well, that's a weird interaction, but if a judge says it works.


Highlight of the night, getting paired against Omnishow and then getting a repair called and going up against DnT instead. Better to be lucky...

LOL

[Morte]

Just got home from Legacy, 4-0 against Miracles, Infect, DnT and ANT

Well done Dice! I'm interested in a report of your ANT and Miracles matches. Did you miss Ghost Quarter against Miracles? Are you satisfied with your 3-1 split of Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge? How's been Ancient Grudge in general?


(good stuff)

Thank you very much door, precious support here. Can you share your current sideboard and list?

I noticed that both winning lists of SCG Baltimore ran no Ghost Quarter, but it is possible that Miracles is less popular in US than in Europe, or that the straight fast-combo plan makes it not relevant anyway if you're never going into a grindy game. Also, both lists cut down Maze of Ith and Taiga (to 3 and 2 respectively) for a full set of Punishing Fire (good with the rise of Deathrite Shaman) and minimum 2 or 3 Tranquil Thicket (N.B. only Tranquil Thicket, never Horizon Canopy with its land drop cost). Those highly focused lists did well in a quite diversified meta, looking at the SCG Baltimore top 16, proving that's a robust choice. What do you think?

[Fatal]

After some testing I found that there is an issue with a color mana in this build - Specially if you want to loam + cycle + loam, which mean you need GGG, maybe it's because of my play style (more controlish then fast combo out - probably because of experience of older version of lands like U/G with Intuition/EE/Slaver lock) if anyone tried Riftstone portal - in U/G it was one of the solutions to problems which colored mana ?

Adding old tip/trick:

If opponent save lands with fetchlands (not cracked) and you have rishadan port online - just tap fetchland their eot - they will be forced to crack then, or lose them by wasteland.

[door]

Thank you very much door, precious support here. Can you share your current sideboard and list?


Sure!

Main deck 61 cards:
1 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Riftstone Portal

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths

3 Tranquil Thicket

3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

4 Exploration
2 Manabond

Sideboard:
1 Dark Depths
1 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Choke
1 Seismic Assault
1 Zuran Orb

I am currently happy with the list. Would only add the 4th Sphere if I had to play a GP tomorrow. Very little of combo decks in my local meta. However, the last tournament went awful, only 4 points per 4 rounds... Still not perfect with the deck.

[Krion]

What is the point of Seismic Assault in the SB? It seems good against death and taxes and other fair decks but aren't we already favored enough main board? I know it's also useful against miracles but it's so difficult to resolve against them.

[Darkgobs]

First of all, congrats to all who brought thoses nice results; it's nice to see this deck claim his place in the DTB section! (also, awesome Primer!)

Then quick questions:

1/ Considering the light U-splash list, and thus, a list who is able to play Zuran Orb. How has it been for you guys? And in which M-U do you side it in (burn and UR Delver, but i don't see other deck) ?
2/ In all versions playing Seismic Assault alongside Titan, how strong could it be against Miracle as an extra wincon that's doesn't fear hate g2/3?

Thanks in advance!

edit: cross-post with Krion. ^^

[Morte]

Zuran Orb. How has it been for you guys? And in which M-U do you side it in (burn and UR Delver, but i don't see other deck) ?

Zuran Orb is our only answer to Price of Progress outside Glacial Chasm, sure, I'd side it in against ANT too. 6-10 more potential life could gain a useful amount of time.


Seismic Assault alongside Titan

I have the same question. door can you give your feedback? It seems that in many matchups, like Miracles, you can side in both at the same time, for example S&T often sides in Blood Moon too. Generally speaking, Seismic Assault seems more popular (see SCG Baltimore lists), but why exactly?


What is the point of Seismic Assault in the SB? It seems good against death and taxes and other fair decks but aren't we already favored enough main board? I know it's also useful against miracles but it's so difficult to resolve against them.

D&T has a lot of powerful answers to our plans, as extensively explained in the primer, where it is ranked "even to unfavorable". Don't underestimate it. About Seismic Assault, I'm still investigating about its proper use, for sure you should consider it as our best B-plan in case of Blood Moon. Indeed it's not easy to generate :r::r::r: in normal conditions, but conveniently the dreadful Moon effects make it very easy to cast (unlike Titan, which would require something like double Mox or Mox + Forest). Once you resolve Assault you go out from oblivion and gain a clock, and if you have a Mox or Forest to produce :g: and an active Loam you virtually propose 6 damages per turn, which is not bad at all. Also don't forget that your Gambles are active even if you only have red mana. I'm very interested in this topic, thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

Well done Dice! I'm interested in a report of your ANT and Miracles matches. Did you miss Ghost Quarter against Miracles? Are you satisfied with your 3-1 split of Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge? How's been Ancient Grudge in general?
OK lets see how much of this I can remember. I might have to start taking notes.


Miracles: (I start I believe)
I do not know what he was on, I remember what I had clearly enough though.

Game one:
Wasteland, Wasteland, Depths, Stage, Gamble, Exploration and I think the last one was Maze.

Me: Waste go.
Him: He plays a fetch, goes for a basic Island, plays out a Top and pases.
Me: Waste go.
Him: Plays a fetch, passes.
Me: I still have not drawn a coloured mana source, I play the Stage and pass.
Him: He plays a Tarn, cracks it, in response I make a copy of it with stage and he then plays out another top.
Me:I finally draw a fetch, play it, play Exploration, drop a Depths, pass.
Him: He draws, taps two of his lands for a Counterbalance and passes.
Me: I draw, drop a Port, drop another land I do not remember, pass.
Him: He draws, again has no mana, passes. I port his one basic Plains and punch him in the mouth for 20.

Out:
3 Maze
3 Fire
1 Tabernacle
1 Wasteland

In:
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Choke

Game two.
I remember very little of this game other than two things, One, having a Pithing Needle in your opening hand is good and them not having Force is better. Oh and being a total lucksack. That helps too.

I do not remember the play by play, What I do remember is that he went turn one Top, I respond with a Pithing Needle. His answer "Well that sucks." told he he had no countermagic. I then play out a Mox and pass, on my next turn I Draw and Loam back the cards, he plays a Counterbalance. I will not Dredge this game, only draw from now on. A choice that I thought was best. Since my next three draws where in order: Exploration, Choke, Port. I think I am a total lucksack and he gave up the game soon after.


Infect:

I had a blast here. I will see how much I can remember, but it was great fun. This person I was playing against is still building his deck. He is a much older man that owns a lot of really old cards, so you get this strange mix of things you would think he should have but does not, and things you would wonder how anyone found it and he just had it at home.

I know what I am against, I look at my opening hand and just laugh. I have never seen a mix like this before and I love it.
Mox, Mox, Mox, Wasteland, Gamble, Loam, Grove.
What a hand. I mean really, look at that.

Him: He goes first and drops an infect creature.
Me: Mox, Mox, Loam, Mox, Play the Grove, Gamble for Punishing Fire, pass.
Him: Land, Attack, buff, hit me for 7. (Ouch)
Me: Loam, tap Grove, return Fire, kill the creature, game really. I have a wasteland lock and Punishing set up.

Out:
1 Manabond

In:
1 Chalice

Game two
Lets see if I can remember my opening hand.
Exploration, Chasm, Loam, Stage, Rotation, Wasteland, Forest

Me: Ok so this is the tricky one. I draw EE, I went turn one Forest into Exploration and Wasteland.
Him: Forest pass. (Slow hand I guess)
Me: Draw a fetch, play the fetch, play the chasm, rotate the Chasm, find Depths, sac depths to Chasm, Loam, pass.
Him, Kiln Fiend, pass.
Me: WTF? Play out the Chasm, Waste him, Loam, Pass.
Him: Draw, buff, attacks me, goes to write down damage, I tap the top of the Chasm, he passes.
Me: I am not sure what happens next but I remember that I ended up with EE on two, then I made the Witch and killed him a turn or two later.

DnT: Against pandaman
I do not remember the first game, I just know I won it. The second game I was looking to lose, he had Aven Mindcensor and a Mirran Crusader equipped with a SoFI. I was on a ton of life thanks to Swords, so I could take another 3 hits, but I really had no outs since he had Reliced by grave before. I top decked EE, dropped it on 3 and prayed he did not have a revoker, he did not. I popped it the next turn and held on to draw that game. This is the one time all night EE had an impact.

AnT:
Game one. Yea. Lets just say I am on the play game two.

Out:
3 Punishing Fire
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

In:
1 Zuran Orb
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke

Game two.
Sphere into Sphere wins this game. I am willing to say it was a very lucky draw not so much still that won me this.

Game three:
Ok, so here is the question. You have no Mox, multiple Land, Sphere, CotV and some other things, what of those two options do you play first? Chalice or Sphere. I played out the Chalice on two, but I do not know if that is right. He nearly comboed out with two drops.

He started, Probe, probe, fetch (15). Then he Pondered and passed.
I play land, it is all I can do. I cross my fingers and pass.
He does some more pondering, passes after what I swear is about 3 minutes and me asking him not to slow play.
I play Chalice, I do not know if Sphere was not the better option, but I know he has Chain of Vapor as a possible out so I made the call.
He needs to empty his hand, so he casts Surgical paying Life (countered), and then after his fetches, plays a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor and Ad Nauseam. He is on 11 life and kills himself.

I still wonder if I made the right call. It was close.


Did you miss Ghost Quarter against Miracles?
No, because I was a total luck sac. I think over time though, yes I would have. Choke does help remove the pressure of not having Quarter though.

Are you satisfied with your 3-1 split of Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge?
Yes, very. I am even happier with it now I have a main deck removal card.

How's been Ancient Grudge in general?
Very strong. I have had games were Gambling for it has meant no risk whatsoever and that has been very useful. Also milling into it is strong too. Since DnT and artifact grave hate are common locally, I am happy to have it at hand.

[door]

I have the same question. door can you give your feedback? It seems that in many matchups, like Miracles, you can side in both at the same time, for example S&T often sides in Blood Moon too. Generally speaking, Seismic Assault seems more popular (see SCG Baltimore lists), but why exactly?


first of all, my position is that 4 gambles allow to play singletons after board. Yes, there's always a risk to get the tutored card discarded, but it's the philosophy of the deck with the resulting pros and cons compared to intuition lands. Second, in general cards like Titan and Assault are sided in when you expect long games with less loaming and more drawing. The longer the game goes, the more chances you have to find/topdeck the card, the less countermagic your opponent has left. The rest is about what matchups you expect and how many slots you have in SB for an alternate win condition. Sometimes I side in Seismic Assault not as an extra win con, but more as an extra creature removal (Elves, DnT, Maverick, Infect and sometimes Goblins, Merfolk, some delver decks). Assault is a good SB card against Blood Moon decks (Painter, Dragon Stompy), while the Titan is not. Both are good against Miracles, both are hard to counter with Counterbalance. In vacuum, the Titan seems a bit more powerful allowing to do much more in a single turn, however, sometimes Miracles (and UR delver) can play Blood Moon after SB. Besides, it's always good that your opponent does not expect the other card. This is how I justify the 1-1 split between Primeval Titan and Seismic Assault.

When is it worse than playing just 2 Titans in SB? It's when you strictly need a Titan and you want to raise a chance to naturally draw it. There are not so many matchups, when it is so important. I can name 12-posts, Sneak Attack and may be Nic Fit among them, though I am not so sure. I do not see much of these decks nowadays.

Would I play 2 Assaults? It's a hard question, but I think, no. I would have to push on having 3 red mana in every game, knowing that I have 2 Assaults in the deck. It should be a very special metagame to make me do that. I prefer more freedom in games with an ability to gamble for a single Assault when it is relevant or get it later. As for Elves and DnT, they are winnable with Elves being easier, but you can never have enough removal against them. Both decks can change a situation upside down in a single turn out of nothing. I never feel safe against them.

I hope, my thinking is clear, but I'm open for a discussion. I might be mistaken somewhere.

2 Dice_Box

Him: He plays a Tarn, cracks it, in response I make a copy of it with stage and he then plays out another top.
It's a good idea for finding a Taiga this way, but actually you could not do that. Sacrificing the fetch is a part of the activation cost, so it's already in a graveyard when you are just thinking about making copy of it.

[Higgs]

I played out the Chalice on two, but I do not know if that is right. He nearly comboed out with two drops.

... and then after his fetches, plays a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor and Ad Nauseam. He is on 11 life and kills himself.

How did the cast a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor into Ad Nauseam when there was a Chalice on 2?

[Sockosensei]

How did the cast a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor into Ad Nauseam when there was a Chalice on 2?I suspect he meant Chalice X=1, paying 2 mana, since he later mentions countering Surgical.


Ok, so here is the question. You have no Mox, multiple Land, Sphere, CotV and some other things, what of those two options do you play first? Chalice or Sphere. I played out the Chalice on two, but I do not know if that is right. He nearly comboed out with two drops.

He started, Probe, probe, fetch (15). Then he Pondered and passed.
I play land, it is all I can do. I cross my fingers and pass.
He does some more pondering, passes after what I swear is about 3 minutes and me asking him not to slow play.
I play Chalice, I do not know if Sphere was not the better option, but I know he has Chain of Vapor as a possible out so I made the call.
He needs to empty his hand, so he casts Surgical paying Life (countered), and then after his fetches, plays a bunch of Cabal Rituals into a Tutor and Ad Nauseam. He is on 11 life and kills himself.

I still wonder if I made the right call. It was close.Could you tell us what "some other things" were in your starting hand? It's important whether you had a Crop Rotation and a green source or not, and perhaps combo pieces, Waste, etc.

In my mind, the first order of business is not to die, and that means getting a hate piece onto the board ASAP. Their biggest chance to kill you before you untap for turn two probably involves artifact mana. Much as I'd like to have my Chalice on 1 or 2, with a slow hand on the draw I think I'd put it at 0 and hope to survive long enough to drop Sphere. The reason I asked about Crop Rotation is so you could get Bojuka Bog and either kill their PiF route or simply hose the threshold for Cabal Ritual -- considering that's the other big mana source besides LED (which you've already stopped through Chalice at 0).

[Alexeezay]

So in general, to clarify. Do you Gamble for Assault, Titan, Spheres and Krosan Grip?
In testing I always gambled for Grip vs. pesky enchantments and I never had to discard the tutored card (I guess I'm a lucksack), so that was funny.

Also: how highly do you prioritize controlling the board? I guess vs White decks you need Control first because of STP etc. & vs. non-white you go for a quick 20/20.
In testing it was hard to decide imo, especially when I tested vs Sneak Show. If I make the 20/20 now I could steal the game, but what if they win on their turn? Maybe I should get a Karakas instead? The thing is, a lot of the time you can't wait on the Crop Rotation because of Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm etc. or it's the same vs like DnT/Aven Mindcensor.
There are definitely interesting lines of play with this deck.

How do you feel about Color Screw? The deck has only a few sources, 4 Grove/2 Taiga/1 Forest/3 Fetch/4 Mox = 14 sources
I thought about adding the 4th Fetch and 3rd Taiga and cut karakas/g.quarter and some spell maybe. Especially useful when you board into Assaults.

[Chatto]

@ Alexeezay; I Gamble for the card needed, so yes for Assault, K-Grip or Primetime. Usually I try to fill my hand with lands through Loam, thus having a better chance keeping the card.

The first time I played this deck I was eager to combo out as soon as possible. I've learned to play it slow, focusing on the control first. Don't know if it's the best route, but it gives me the feeling I understand and see the different routes better. Of course, I will combo if I know I can.

Speaking of knowing when to combo, what went wrong during this game? Or was it just bad luck? (http://itsjulian.com/?post_type=videogallery&p=1052). I would like to hear your opinion, perhaps we think alike.

Also, you have acces to more colored mana, but it's slow: copying lands with Stage, Tranquil Thicket and Horizon Canopy. But, because of the way I like to play the deck it's good enough if the situations presents itself.

[Rivfader]

how highly do you prioritize controlling the board? I guess vs White decks you need Control first because of STP etc. & vs. non-white you go for a quick 20/20.

Like Chatto says, I think with this deck you should (almost) always prioritize control, especially when you don't know what you're playing against. And while playing control, you're opportunisticly looking for or actively shaping the right moment to combo. There are quite some scenario's where you're opponent can handle your token, like swords, but also wasteland versus sorceryspeed removal (Liliana or Jace).
Thing is, creating the token sets you back two lands, and that's fine when you know your opponent has no answers or you have loam (and an accelerant) available. But if you don't, you might have lost the game.

Controlling the board also comes in different forms. Some decks loose to Grove/Pfire, others can be wastelocked, some are best kept at bay with mazes and Tabernacle, and some can be dealt with through a quick combo. You'll have to invest in these gameplans with crop rotation and gamble, so identifying your opponent and knowing which gameplan is the strongest, is very important. D&T for example isn't very vulnerable to the combo or manadenial, but is vulnerable to Punishing Fires. Patriot has a shaky manabase and is a slower delvervariant, so here a manadenialplan is very good. Generally, setting up a loam with an accelerant will dredge you into all of these plans, but sometimes you should keep hands with a very specific gameplan.

Usually crop rotation is a good thing to hold on to. It's about the only card that interacts with the stack, so wait for your opponent's play to see what you want to croprotate for. If you really need the Karakas to stop you from loosing, you should get it. If not, hold on to it for an opportunity to combo first. Don't fear the softcounters because you should have the mana available for activating Thespian's Stage.

I think 4 Grove/2 Taiga/1 Forest/3 Fetch/4 Mox (not counting thickets) is very tight, and that an additional fetch/taiga/Canopy is preferable, at least this how I experience it. Having loam + exploration in your openinghand but no green source is very frustrating ...

[Dice_Box]

I suspect he meant Chalice X=1, paying 2 mana, since he later mentions countering Surgical.
(I did sorry)

Could you tell us what "some other things" were in your starting hand? It's important whether you had a Crop Rotation and a green source or not, and perhaps combo pieces, Waste, etc.
(I do not remember what they were, but I know they were not relevant. I had really, Mana and two hate pieces. Knowing that once I have a Chalice on 1 (Chain being his out) and a Sphere down, I had all the time in the world to kill him I was playing to that plan.)


In my mind, the first order of business is not to die, and that means getting a hate piece onto the board ASAP. Their biggest chance to kill you before you untap for turn two probably involves artifact mana. Much as I'd like to have my Chalice on 1 or 2, with a slow hand on the draw I think I'd put it at 0 and hope to survive long enough to drop Sphere. The reason I asked about Crop Rotation is so you could get Bojuka Bog and either kill their PiF route or simply hose the threshold for Cabal Ritual -- considering that's the other big mana source besides LED (which you've already stopped through Chalice at 0).
(Yea, I know the plan, If I did not mention it, I do remember I sided in Bog. (Again I have to take notes from now on if I am really going to test for real.) I misses Chalice for 0, that was likely the best play but I was so set on stopping Chain of Vapor, I blanked it out.)



Dice_Box

It's a good idea for finding a Taiga this way, but actually you could not do that. Sacrificing the fetch is a part of the activation cost, so it's already in a graveyard when you are just thinking about making copy of it.
Good call. Missed that.


@Alexeezay
I always control before I kill. I have had games where I have had the kill open to me for 3 turns in a row and choose to prioritise their mana first. You want to leave them without options. Sometimes you only get to make one token, one creature, keeping her alive matters more than winning 3 turns sooner. Also, not to be an ass, but it is not exactly unfavorable to make a game go slightly longer sometimes.

[Rivfader]

Speaking of knowing when to combo, what went wrong during this game? Or was it just bad luck? (http://itsjulian.com/?post_type=videogallery&p=1052). I would like to hear your opinion, perhaps we think alike.


Interesting video, nice hearing comments from the opponent's point of view!
Game 1 he shouldn't have cast the Pfire over making the token. Julian would have had 3 green mana, no additional landdrops and no untapped elves, and I don't see a scenario how to combo out for Elves at that point (unless perhaps with a crop rotation for Cradle, but I don't think he played crops) (Edit: casting glimpse, quirion ranger and nettle sentinel could start a chain). One other thing I also noticed later in the game was him casting his Pfires in response in Julian's turn, but this allowed Julian to play a Cradle and tap for an additional mana. Burning the heritage druid during his turn would probably have been better.
Game 2 he was manascrewed, and he only had mox, port, waste to begin with. He probably should have kept on recurring Pfires instead of dropping the sphere, as it hurt him way more than the Elves, especially after he set himself back a landdrop by wasting a cradle.

But it's also hard to say without knowing the other cards in hand. What's your opinion?

[Morte]

I agree with you. Game 2 he didn't foresee Julian's Cradle, but he's been too impulsive in playing its piece of hate. Going on recurring Punishing Fire for a turn or two and ensuring to have a plan after playing Sphere of Resistance would have been more robust, while he definitely should have removed Heritage Druid and the Bayou in his turn, before letting Julian use them in his upkeep to pay for Tabernacle.

Game 1 he just did a bad mistake. The probability of Elves to answer a turn 2 Marit Lage are negligible, he should have just gone off and win. It's not always correct to "control first". Many decks have few or no outs to the combo, or can win quickly, and comboing fast is evidently the best strategy. But also versus decks with answers, sometimes, the fast route should not be excluded a priori. You should consider how much your disruptive power outclasses their capability to find more answers. Suppose you're playing vs. Miracles. You could go for a turn 3 combo but you wait because you want to leave them with no white mana, maybe because you have Ghost Quarter recursion. In the meantime they sees cards with top and have time to use cantrips to find lands, Counterbalance, Swords/Terminus, and setup the best combination to stop you. Or, just consider the game 1 of the video. Maybe the plan of the Lands player was to kill all Julian's creatures, but Julian was able to deploy an army of elves even if under Punishing Fire recursion. The examples are many. Many decks have the capability to setup a board difficult for us if we give them enough time. There is no blind optimal choice between the control or fast combo strategy, it strictly depends on the scenario.

[Nikolai004]

Greetings!

I've been reading through the different primers here and on MTGsalvation and I just have a question about sideboard set ups for larger events where the meta could be anything. I will be going to a 300-400 person event next weekend and I'm having a difficult time deciding on a sideboard set up. Top 28 prizes all include some form of black bordered German dual lands and I do love me some German lands.

Right now the sideboard is;
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Choke
1 Seismic Assault
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dark Depths

I'd really like a Chalice of the void but I don't really know how effective a one of that I can't tutor for or get back from the yard will actually be but wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on sideboarding for an unknown meta.
Another card is Zuran orb because Price of progress is just brutal if I can't get rid of some lands in response but this suffers from the same thing as Chalice of the void or really any non-land permanent.

Choke is mainly to assist with the Miracles match up but I don't know how many other potential match-ups it's good against.
The 6 sphere affects seem to me to just be too much, but I don't know how prevalent combo will be but I've had just 4 before and never really thought I'd have liked more, but I haven't played hundreds of games yet so it's completely possible that I just haven't played enough to know what I want.
The 4th dark depths I usually forgo but I have noticed that sometimes I would just like to be able to side in the 4th so the combo becomes easier to just draw into.
Seismic Assault isn't going anywhere, I've only gotten it out twice but both times it won me the game. Though I have reservations about running a second copy.
Krosan Grip used to only be a 3 of but far too many times did I need one sooner rather than later and a 4th could help with that.
Karakas, well, it's pretty self explanatory. I used to run it main but kept siding it out so now it's in the side just in case.
Pithing needle is really versatile and can often buy me a few turns that I need and even completely ruin my opp's initial game plan if I choose properly.

If it will help here is the main deck, it's pretty standard;

Lands (35)
3 Taiga
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

Instants (7)
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

Sorcery (8)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble

Artifact (4)
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments(6)
2 Manabond
4 Exploration

[Chatto]

(...)But it's also hard to say without knowing the other cards in hand. What's your opinion?


(...)There is no blind optimal choice between the control or fast combo strategy, it strictly depends on the scenario.

Well, game one he just had to go for it and game two he took a different path and made some poor choices regarding which Elf to burn. I think we both had roughly the same idea, Rivfader. The reason I think this vid is interesting, is because of what Morte says: you have to be able to shift along a game from one strategy to another :smile:


Greetings!

(...)
I'd really like a Chalice of the void but I don't really know how effective a one of that I can't tutor for or get back from the yard will actually be but wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on sideboarding for an unknown meta.
Another card is Zuran orb because Price of progress is just brutal if I can't get rid of some lands in response but this suffers from the same thing as Chalice of the void or really any non-land permanent.



Hi Nikolai004, regarding your SB; it looks good to me. Pretty straightforward and standard. Regarding sphere-effects: you could do with less if combo isn't dominant. Just one remark: of course you can tutor for your one-off's, just use Gamble. How else would you be able to get the other one-offs? Now getting them back is a whole other scenario (one that some of us have been exploring with a light U-splash)

[Arksz]

Have been wanting to play lands for a while and I finally purchased that Tabernacle.

First time playing the deck and took it to a local IQ. I was totally fried from not sleeping for two days and working a full shift prior to the tournament. So my results were:

0-1 Miracles
2-1 Dredge
2-0 Goblins
2-0 Dredge
2-1 Sneak & Show

Made top eight and went
2-1 UWR delver
2-1 UWR delver
2-1 Esper Deathblade

So I ended up winning, the top eight matchups definitely fell in my favor. Between being new with the deck and a zombie after round 4 I made tons of mistakes. I want to get peoples' opinions on the Sneak & Show matchup.

[Dice_Box]

Painful but not unwinable. They run enough non basics you can still punish them but in all honesty it is one of those games that when testing against, I would focus more on post sideboard games because they give you a far better chance of winning.

[Nikolai004]

I'd have to second Dice_Box sentiment. Unlike omnitell the sneak and show variant is winnable but will require tight play and being able to manage your spells and mana properly.

I'm pretty sure winning against omnitell is almost impossible. I'd compare it to miracles beating 12 post. Kind of 95-5 in their favor.

[Dice_Box]

2-2 tonight. Word to the wise, don't lend Painter to a friend and then play lands...

[Nikolai004]

Choke and Ports are goods in this matchup (like the sphere effects) but yes, Omnitell is hard...
If we resolve Choke the matchup go to 45/55, but remain hard.
The Sphere effects force it to pass by bouncing effects but if we can't block the lands he plays at instant speed in resp to port and find the victory.

-

I would like to ask how to set the right strategy against MUD.
Chalice @1 and @2 destroy my game....if he play Metalworker and I don't have Punishing Fire the game go bad..

:(

I play 4x punishing fire maindeck and no Quarter.

I've gotten lucky every time I'm matched up against MUD and have the exploration loam wasteland set up to keep them off of having any more than one land at a time. So, I think the mana denial plan really is our best plan against MUD.

As far as omnitell and choke, I'd love to be able to resolve it, but it seems they're able to force it every time. Just bad luck on my part. The spheres just don't seem to do enough in the match though it is amusing that they still need to pay for the sphere even when Omniscience is out. At least that's how online works, I don't know about in an REL. I'd assume it was the same though.

[jake556]

I'm curious on your guys thoughts regarding Ghost Quarter. If your playing against a deck that could have basics, do you hold it back and just use it for mana or do you waste them to find out if they run any basics? Seems this comes up often. Unless I'm pretty certain I usually hold it back and wait for an good opportunity/ land we care about to show up.

[Rampart]

Most of the time GQ is just a strip mine, there is maybe a single or two basic lands in the three color decks so stripping them out is real. Against the decks that do have a high qty of basic lands I will try to screw them out of a color like White in miracles or Enchantress or Random Stoneblade.dec.

Against decks that are mono color I try to wait for an opportune time to use GQ as stripping them out is really difficult.

I also use GQ as basically the 4 fetch land.

[Chatto]

(...)
I also use GQ as basically the 4 fetch land.

That's actually something I forgot about GQ. Pretty clever :smile:

[Rampart]

That's actually something I forgot about GQ. Pretty clever :smile:

Yeah you would be surprised how many times I GQ my own tranquil thicket in play or get small value out of an expiring Glacial Chasm

[Arksz]

I have seen some people running only three fetchlands in the deck. Does it increase the jankiness in opening hands a lot? There have been plenty of times I wish that useless fetch late game was something else entirely.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Most people who run 3 fetches just replace the missing land with a 3rd Taiga so it ends up feeling very similar. It helps eliminate the dead fetchland issue you mentioned as well as making seismic assault a card that could be cast off of fetchable lands.

[Nikolai004]

I have seen some people running only three fetchlands in the deck. Does it increase the jankiness in opening hands a lot? There have been plenty of times I wish that useless fetch late game was something else entirely.
I've personally dropped down to two fetches and haven't regretted it since. It allows me to run a bojuka bog main which helps in surprising situations. Though mainly against dredge and to randomly ruin a player hoping to delve soon.

[Chatto]

Most people who run 3 fetches just replace the missing land with a 3rd Taiga so it ends up feeling very similar. It helps eliminate the dead fetchland issue you mentioned as well as making seismic assault a card that could be cast off of fetchable lands.

3 fetch, 1 Forest and 2 Taiga's, but I'm still debating whether I want a 3rd Taiga. I do have Asssult in the SB, so 2 fetch, 1 Forest, 3 Taiga's is probably better.

[Arksz]

Greetings!

I've been reading through the different primers here and on MTGsalvation and I just have a question about sideboard set ups for larger events where the meta could be anything. I will be going to a 300-400 person event next weekend and I'm having a difficult time deciding on a sideboard set up. Top 28 prizes all include some form of black bordered German dual lands and I do love me some German lands.



Are you heading to Eternal weekend in Coopersburg? I am also! Maybe we can discuss some lands I'm still new to the deck haha.

[Nikolai004]

Are you heading to Eternal weekend in Coopersburg? I am also! Maybe we can discuss some lands I'm still new to the deck haha.
That's the one. Always enjoy talking about lands though I didn't expect to see any other lands players there.

[gigapatrick]

Hey everyone. Minor little report for the interested. One match I faced Mud, for those who are interested in how that one goes.

RG Lands #7 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/userblogs/gigapatrick-blog/41835-rg-lands-7-epic-loot)

[Arksz]

That's the one. Always enjoy talking about lands though I didn't expect to see any other lands players there.

Well I have been eyeing up the deck for a while but only recently picked up a Tabernacle. So I am a bit fresh to the archetype. I really wish there was more coverage I could watch to get me familiar with the deck.

There definitely don't seem to be many Lands pilots but now that it's in the DTB section it will get more people picking it up.

How long have you been playing the deck? Mind exchanging info? Wouldn't mind some pointers and tricks before the tournament.

[Rampart]

Well I have been eyeing up the deck for a while but only recently picked up a Tabernacle. So I am a bit fresh to the archetype. I really wish there was more coverage I could watch to get me familiar with the deck.

There definitely don't seem to be many Lands pilots but now that it's in the DTB section it will get more people picking it up.

How long have you been playing the deck? Mind exchanging info? Wouldn't mind some pointers and tricks before the tournament.

there is a lot of coverage actually probably 20-25+ video's from SCG Coverage to Ari Lax's daily that he recorded for SCG you just got to look around a little bit for the vid's.

[Arksz]

there is a lot of coverage actually probably 20-25+ video's from SCG Coverage to Ari Lax's daily that he recorded for SCG you just got to look around a little bit for the vid's.

I found the Ari lax videos, many thanks!
I watched all the videos linked in the main primer but can't seem to find any other SCG coverage.

[Nikolai004]

Well I have been eyeing up the deck for a while but only recently picked up a Tabernacle. So I am a bit fresh to the archetype. I really wish there was more coverage I could watch to get me familiar with the deck.

There definitely don't seem to be many Lands pilots but now that it's in the DTB section it will get more people picking it up.

How long have you been playing the deck? Mind exchanging info? Wouldn't mind some pointers and tricks before the tournament.

I think it's been nearly or a bit over a year now myself. Started with wUbRG lands and now I'm just straight RG combo. And yeah sounds like a plan to me. As for video coverage I like to use
http://mtgcoverage.com/

[Chatto]

I found the Ari lax videos, many thanks!
I watched all the videos linked in the main primer but can't seem to find any other SCG coverage.

There is more than enough, just use keywords. Mtgcoverage almost exclusively links to SCG. Other than that they pick the biggest events around the globe. Sadly, SCG stopped making frequent Legacy-reports.

Found the following just by using keywords:

Vids on youtube, by happymtg:

Challengers to God of Legacy R6 G1, 2 & 3 Iso Toshiharu(Lands) vs. Tomizawa Shin(Elves) (Nov 2014)

Game 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS3ng3OyGyc)
Game 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBNbgr_sca8)
Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsVL1zTmrLI)

Iso Toshiharu makes a mistake in G3.


[LEGACY] Vendredi du Biland 11/07/2014, UR Delver (Felix Guillaume) VS Lands RG Combo (Alcouffe Simon)

Game 1 and 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej_7eb4dnl8)

Before this primer, I used this short primer (http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/2ms5fl/rg_lands_primer/). It's pretty basic, but it gives a general idea on how to play the deck.

[Chatto]

People seen this list played in Japan (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/186765)? Interesting to see:

- no Blue, yet still EE,
- four Goblin Rabblemaster in the SB.

[Nikolai004]

People seen this list played in Japan (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/186765)? Interesting to see:

- no Blue, yet still EE,
- four Goblin Rabblemaster in the SB.

You're not aware of a write up or a video on any of the games are you? I hadn't ever considered Rabblemaster, but my friend who plays combo says there's a good chance he can close out the game quick enough to be a real consideration.

[Chatto]

Still searching, but my Japanese is a bit rusty :cool:... But unfortunately no... I can't find anything

[Sockosensei]

Still searching, but my Japanese is a bit rusty :cool:... But unfortunately no... I can't find anything
I did a bit of searching but didn't come up with any discussion, just decklists. :frown:
I suspect the thinking is that they either waste Swords to Plowshares on it (WIN: less removal for Marit Lage), it draws a counter (WIN: fewer counters for Crop Rotation or Gamble), forces the opponent to keep blockers back (WIN: less pressure against), or goes unanswered on the beatdown (WIN: WIN).

If going the creature beatdown route post-board, I'd still prefer Thrun as it's powerful on both attack and defense, much less vulnerable, and probably comes in in more matchups.

[Nikolai004]

I did a bit of searching but didn't come up with any discussion, just decklists. :frown:
I suspect the thinking is that they either waste Swords to Plowshares on it (WIN: less removal for Marit Lage), it draws a counter (WIN: fewer counters for Crop Rotation or Gamble), forces the opponent to keep blockers back (WIN: less pressure against), or goes unanswered on the beatdown (WIN: WIN).

If going the creature beatdown route post-board, I'd still prefer Thrun as it's powerful on both attack and defense, much less vulnerable, and probably comes in in more matchups.
It certainly does seem to have it's merits, and perhaps after this weekend I'll pick some up online and try it out. Anything that can help with combo, miracles, or d&t is something I'm always looking for. I've even debated a sideboard Boseiju, Who Shelters All, specifically for miracles to break through the counterbalance lock.

[Chatto]

I would say that Goblin Rabblemaster is easier to cast and has a broader application than Seismic Assault, due being easier to cast.

I do have Rabblemaster laying around, and I have a day of testing with friends ahead of me. I'll give him a try.

[Dice_Box]

People seen this list played in Japan (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/186765)? Interesting to see:

- no Blue, yet still EE,
- four Goblin Rabblemaster in the SB.

This doesn't suprise me. EE when you draw it is often a life saver, but the recursion loop has only happened once for me in 8 matches. Intuition really holds that combo together being able to grab Loam, Academy and EE. When you don't have that you end up with just disjointed pieces that on their own have a diminishing impact on the game.

I was planing to cut the Academy for another EE and run two, just because they are so useful in hand. That list, I think it's smart.

[Chatto]

@ Dice_Box: what is your opinion on Rabblemaster as a SB-card?

[Dice_Box]

Just noticed that list has 4 Depths main and 2 Tabernacle. Add in the EE main and I am starting to feel it's a very heavily meta driven build. The sideboard drives that point home to me. Volcanic Fallout, Goblin Rabblemaster, I get the impression this was built with some knowledge of what the player was likely to face.

Goblin Rabblemaster I think is ok against control, when they have removed their Creature control to bring in things like Grave hate, he would shine. You can drop him faster than a Titan but I do not think he has the same impact. His horizontal growth mixed with his speed would give him quite the reach against some decks like Miracles though and you could attack with him when you have an open Maze without fear.

That sideboard offers answers to Combo and Control but it lacks some of my go to's like Karakas and Bog. I do not think that's too much of a take away though since that set up giving options against both the major weakness of the deck seams strong. I just feel like you need Karakas somewhere in your 75. Hell I would go to 76 before I would cut it.

My personal feeling on the card? I can see the appeal but I am not sure I would run it. I can see it as an answer to a meta though. I guess that's a point in its favor.

I get the feeling I have overlooked something though, anyone want to jump in?

[Chatto]

Perhaps this would help to explain some choices: http://www.mtgdecks.net/events/view/18716

[gigapatrick]

With all this talk of alternative wincons in the board, I wanted to bring up a card I've never seen mentioned: Inferno Titan. Obviously not as good as Seismic Assault against Moon decks, but it has the benefit of not being graveyard dependent and is, in my opinion, less of a corner case care. You could board it in against anything except combo and it would be pretty decent; it could act as a sweeper against Death and Taxes, it could threaten Jace pretty well against Miracles or Blue midrange, and would just act as a huge bomb against a lot of decks. Obviously it doesn't get a spot over Primeval Titan, but it might get a spot over Assault.

[Chatto]

Two turn clock is always worth exploring. Only problem I have is, like Primetime, it's a bit expensive.

[Nikolai004]

Greetings, yesterday, 3/14/2015, I played in Tales of Adventure in Coopersburg, PA. for more information: http://eemagic.com/
I ended up getting 13th Place which to date is the highest I’ve gotten in any 300+ player tournament. Let me preface this by letting you all know that my plays were affected by a lack of sleep. My roommates woke me up and it threw off my sleep pattern so after getting down work at 11pm I couldn’t sleep at all and before I knew it, it was 7am and time to get ready to go.

Anyway, onto the reason you’re here to find out what happened and how a sleep deprive man did. I can honestly say I had really good matchups and lucky draws helped a lot. The TO decided to do a cut to Top 16, but even had they cut to a top 8 I would have been ok as going in I was ranked 7th.
Match one I played twelve post MUD
Game one all I saw were glimmerpost and cloudpost which I wastelanded, recurring it and assembled the combo thanks to a Manabond for a turn four win.
Game two was similar except I didn’t get or need the combo as wasteland locking him was all I needed to get him to scoop.
I don’t recall what I sided in but I know I brought in all of my K-grips at least. Unfortunately my sideboarding skills still need work and I should start writing down what I sideboard from now on.
1-0

Match 2 I played UG Infect
Game one I only took 2 infect counters before wastelocking him out and wiping his board.
Game two was much scarier and I had 9 infect counters before the end. It started out pretty standard with a blighted agent from him and me forcing him to use his pump spells on my turn to save his creatures from punishing fire while I dug for my combo pieces and a way to end the game. The punishing fire became a wasteland as he played a Sylvan Safekeeper and soon found himself with no lands, unable to finish me off because of Glacial Chasm. His only out was to naturally draw a wasteland. Luckily he didn’t and after I cleared his board he scooped. He ended up making it to top 16 also.
2-0

Match 3 I played UWR Standstill
Game one took far too long and I blame myself for that because I hadn’t played it before and need to work on my punishing fire math. My opponent did what he does, draw go and counter anything he could, which included several Loams countered via Spell Snare. Eventually he landed a Keranos which I can’t deal with pre or post board and realized too late that Punishing fire was my only chance at winning the game since I couldn’t seem to resolve a loam to get back my pieces of the combo and I was using too much mana trying to keep him off of an entreat which never came because he doesn’t run it and I had no clue what to expect. Keranos ended up killing me with him at only 5 life. Had I started punishing fire a few turns earlier I would have won.
Game 2 We only had about 10 minutes left and I went aggressively for the combo which he swords two marit lage’s back to back leaving him at 15 life and me at 44.
Again I’m not sure what I brought in or took out besides the 4th depths but I’m sure I brought in a couple k-grips as well for any grave hate. This guy ended up being the #1 seed going into the top 16.
2-1

Match 4 I played against Miracles
Game one he set up a counter lock followed by a jace. I tried a few tricks to make him mess up his counterbalance triggers but he didn’t so I just scooped to save time and I ended up needing every second of it.
Game 2 I created a marit lage making him have it early but because he played around wasteland, which I didn’t even have, he didn’t have the white to swords and I took that one.
Game 3 was a grindfest and this time I was able to keep him off a lot of lands and gripped his only top and he never saw a counterbalance that stayed on the table for longer than a turn thanks to grip. Eventually though I realized I wasn’t going to get my missing combo piece and started to punishing fire him out of the game for a win on turn 5 of extra turns.
3-1

Match 5 I played against Maverick
Game one he was able to get me down to 11 but with only two or three creatures which I was able to punishing fire out of the way and assemble the combo.
Game two I kept a hand that was only missing the punishing fire combo but was promising. My opponent played a turn one mom and I drew a punishing fire so using a mox and a land I removed the mom and passed. My opponent then plays a Deathrite and I then draw a grove. I drew exactly what I needed when I needed it. The punishing fire recursion was all I needed to keep his board cleared of any threat my opponent could play.
Match 6 I played against Dredge
Game one I was able to crop rotate into a bog at the opportune time and then create a token in the next few turns, since he had not yard and not hand I had plenty of time.
Game two it was a similar plan except this time I just recurred bog every turn and he wasn’t able to get there and scooped.
4-1

Match 7 I played another Dredge deck
Game one I won the die roll and kept an amazing hand with a mox, a stage, a crop rotation and a loam along with some other lands that weren’t glacial chasm or bog. I got greedy and aggressively went for the combo and then found out I’m dealing with dredge again and used my crop rotation. I wasn’t able to see it or a bog to stop my opponent from getting a massive zombie army and he had a narcomoeba to block the token I made with no punishing fire in sight to remove it.
Game two I was able to Bojuka bog him and recur it to win.
Game three was a bit more stressful, for me. I had a strong hand but without a crop rotation or a bog or glacial chasm. Eventually I had him down to zero lands but he didn’t seem to mind as 28+ zombie tokens are a formidable force. I got lucky, top decked a tabernacle and that bought me the time I needed to assemble the combo and wipe his yard to win the game.
5-1

Match 8 I played the dreaded mirror match, win this and I can ID the next and relax
Game one I had a good opening 7 but the next turn when I dredged I dredge 3 loams back to back and they got promptly bogged away. I scooped soon after to inevitability.
Game two was a grindfest with each of us going back and forth with him bogging more than half of my deck and I had only seen one wasteland my ghost quarter and two loams. Eventually time was called and I only had 5 turns to win for the tie. My opponent was at a very healthy 25 life thanks to my only colored source being groves for a long time. Thankfully I had a maze and a karakas to deal with my opponent’s combo if he tried that. He hadn’t seen his karakas thankfully and I created a token but he had triple glacial chasm and two mazes of his own established by the time he passed to me for turn five, he was at an unhealthy 17 at this point thanks to glacial chasm. I tapped down one maze at the end of his turn, turned my one stage into a copy of my wasteland. So on my turn I could tap down his remaining maze, and wasteland two of his three chasms, but that still left one chasm to deal with and only 1 more wasteland in my deck. I had no loams left, because he bogged me on his previous turn and took away my dredge option so I drew, and got my last crop rotation and I was able to crop rotate for the last wasteland and swing for the win.
5-1-1

Match 9 I played what I thought was a junk lands deck but it was just a Junk Loam list
Game one he triple moxed loamed and played a wasteland. I was shortly locked out of the game.
Game two I created the combo turn 2 for a turn 3 win.
Game three was a bit grindier and he didn’t allow me to get the combo on line so I had to punishing fire him down to six then drop a seismic assault and pitch the 3 lands in my hand for the game. I’ve won my win and in. I was extremely excited, but exhausted and just wanted sleep.
6-1-1

Cut to top 16
Match one I played UWR Stoneblade
Game one he created a batterskull off of a stoneforge and when I found a maze he had a counter for the loam and he won.
Game two I was able to assemble the combo and taught my opponent that naming Thespian Stage when my stage is currently a Tiaga is a bad play.
Game three is where all of the lack of sleep finally hit, and hit me hard. I was apparently falling asleep at the table according to my buddy who was watching me. I made a token early which he swords and put me at a healthy 29 for he had a Meddling Mage on Punishing fire, a stoneforge and a batterskull and all I had to help was one maze of ith and had to remove a Rest in Peace before I could use the loam in my hand to dig for another answer. A tabernacle was helping to keep his mana tied up but only after he played a stoneforge and fetched out a sword of fire and ice. Here is where I began dozing off and losing focus. He attached the sword to a stoneforge and began attacking. I had the combo together and should have just made it, made him give me life or lose the game instead I kept mazing his batterskull when I should have been mazing the stoneforge with the swords on it to stop him from drawing extra cards and I should have made a token. Worst case he swords it and buys me a few more turns to find an answer.

That’s not how it went and I ended up losing but it was a learning experience for both of us as this game I taught my opponent that you can’t wasteland a stage that is now a basic land.


All in all it was a great day and I had a lot of fun and learned a lot about the deck and am happy with my card choices for both the main and sideboard. I’m also very happy I didn’t see any Reanimator or show and tell variants. Had I known that or even suspected that I would have not run the Primeval Titan but at a large event like that I’d not take that risk.
Well I hope that’s useful even without the sideboarding information any questions ask away and if you were there watching and know I may have the board or lines of play wrong let me know. It’s all from memory and that’s pretty unreliable at the best of times.

The list:
Lands (34)
2 Taiga
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

Instant (8)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

Sorcery (8)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble

Artifact (4)
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantment(6)
2 Manabond
4 Exploration

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Choke
1 Seismic Assault
1 Dark Depths
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Primeval Titan

[iamajellydonut]

Game two I created the combo turn 2 for a turn 3 win.

Not quite turn three, and you left out the best part. Double Leyline meets double Krosan Grip.

Grats on the finish!

[Rivfader]

Greetings, yesterday, 3/14/2015, I played in Tales of Adventure in Coopersburg, PA. for more information: http://eemagic.com/
I ended up getting 13th Place which to date is the highest I’ve gotten in any 300+ player tournament.

Congrats Nikolai! Sleep seems overrated, as it didn't stop you from a killing spree :)
What were your experiences with Seismic Assault?

[Arksz]

Also played at Eternal Extravaganza 2. Went 7-2 landing in 17th place, missed top 16 on super slim breakers. Unfortunately I did not take great notes since my games went kind of long and it wore me down.

My matches went as follows:
2-0 BUG Nicfit
2-1 Merfolk
2-0 Grixis Pyromancer
1-2 Miracles - technically we drew but I conceded since he had me locked up game 3
0-2 UWR Delver
2-0 Burn
2-1 Shardless BUG
2-1 Elves
2-0 UWR Stoneblade

Scored a minty German taiga which I plopped right into the deck. Slightly disappointed on getting bumped out of top 16, but the great prize and showing makes up for it.

[Nikolai004]

Congrats Nikolai! Sleep seems overrated, as it didn't stop you from a killing spree :)
What were your experiences with Seismic Assault?


Not quite turn three, and you left out the best part. Double Leyline meets double Krosan Grip.

Grats on the finish!


Great Nikolai.
Very useful report!

I play your identical 60 main cards.
My only doubt is about the absence of Horizon Canopy...but i prefere the Ghost Quarter to realize my denial plan vs the decks who insert one copy of basics lands..

Did you have a good time with this setup or you want to add the Canopy at your 60?

Thanks everyone for the responses, I realized when I woke up this morning that that MUD was actually UR burn and I was remembering the wrong match from when I couldn't sleep and got some games in on MODO.

Seismic Assault has been amazing even in non-blood moon matchups. I recall remarking to my friend as we were leaving that I won't be taking it out anytime soon. Whenever we go to events I use it and it's just great and can often times just win. My only problem is I wish there was a way to get it back if we mill it.

I took horizon Canopy out for the verdant catacombs mainly because I looked at the lists of the people who did well at events and they seem to make due with only 3 fetchable lands and 3 fetchlands. I believe I posted a decklist a few posts back of what I was planning on running. I dropped the 3rd tiaga and a horizon canopy for a verdant catacomb and the 4th crop rotation. I can't say for sure if it was the right change for either of them but I do like the 4th crop rotation but am on the fence about the catacomb instead of the 3rd tiaga.

JamJelly, you're correct, now that you mention it I do recall the double leyline pregame and me dealing with both but not needing to. They were fun matches and I rather enjoyed that last game.

[Nikolai004]

Great Nikolai.
Very useful report!

I play your identical 60 main cards.
My only doubt is about the absence of Horizon Canopy...but i prefere the Ghost Quarter to realize my denial plan vs the decks who insert one copy of basics lands..

Did you have a good time with this setup or you want to add the Canopy at your 60?

I just saw that I missed your ghost quarter comment altogether. I can't see not running it, it is often times at worst a 5th watsteland that gives them a basic and at best a strip mine. It was especially useful against my mirror match where my opponent copied a forest and the only way to remove the stage was with the ghost quarter. Even decks with 2-3 basic lands will run out quickly when you recur it. The only decks that have too many for it to be effective are decks like miracles, who can often times lock you out of being able to recur it and mono red burn who has too many to remove one at a time before they just win.

[Rivfader]

I had my share of lands-fun as well this weekend :smile:, playing the finals of a 66-person tourney.
With some luck though, cause my quarterfinal burnopponent did beat me, but conceided because he and his carbuddies wanted to start the long drive home (and we already split prices).

I played versus:
2-1: OmniTell (with laboratory maniac)
2-0: MUD
2-0: Bloodmoon Stompy
1-2: Burn
2-0: Goblins
2-0: Jund
ID: Infect

Top8:
0-2: Burn (but conceided :tongue:, thx to Alan!)
2-1: Sneaky Show
0-2: Tin Fins
Seismic Assault won me a game versus omnitell (on the field through Show and Tell, burning the lab maniac with sphere backup), and versus the Bloodmoon Stompy (with lots of planeswalkers).

EDIT: Arksz, congrats for 17th in a 300+ tourney!

[Rivfader]

Seismic is a win con in some matchups but this....loool :D
Very good man!

It certainly was a game to remember.
The sphere limited his plays, and after counting his mana, he probably assumed he'd pull his combo off. But after S&T'ing Omniscience and me putting Seismic Assault into play, he suddenly had two permanents to take care of. He played Enter the Infinite, to draw into all his answers, but he probably miscalculated the amount of mana he needed through sphere. So after bouncing Assault, he was short on a mana, and had to S&T a Solland into play to get an additional mana. As it dropped Assault on my board as well, it didn't solve his problem.
But I do realize that if he played Emrakul instead of Labman, the result would probably have been different (although, how great would it be to burn an SnT'd Emrakul with Seismic Assault by discarting 8 lands :) .

[snurly]

Anyone thinking about Atarka's Command in the deck? Hard not to look at it with the "put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield" mode.

[Dice_Box]

Anyone thinking about Atarka's Command in the deck? Hard not to look at it with the "put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield" mode.

Nope.

[Ingo]

Anyone thinking about Atarka's Command in the deck? Hard not to look at it with the "put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield" mode.

The problem is that the other options of the card aren't good. If you're only looking at the 'put a land into play' part, you're better off with summer bloom (but this card isn't played either).

[Raystar]

Hello guys, I'm working on a slightly different version of the deck and I'd like to know if it would be ok to post it here. My version is based on GBw and uses a slightly different engine, do you think I should create my own post on the developmental section or are you ok with me posting it here?

[Rivfader]

Hello guys, I'm working on a slightly different version of the deck and I'd like to know if it would be ok to post it here. My version is based on GBw and uses a slightly different engine, do you think I should create my own post on the developmental section or are you ok with me posting it here?

Hard to say without seeing a list, but without Gamble and Punishing Fire, it seems like a very different take on things. Gamble vs Intuition kinda made the difference between this thread and the RUG-thread, and I can image your list is way more different than both these lands-versions. So you are probably better off creating a new thread for this.

[Raystar]

Hard to say without seeing a list, but without Gamble and Punishing Fire, it seems like a very different take on things. Gamble vs Intuition kinda made the difference between this thread and the RUG-thread, and I can image your list is way more different than both these lands-versions. So you are probably better off creating a new thread for this.

Thanks, I'll do that.

[Dice_Box]

It is appearing that we might end up a DTB again. I am very impressed about how well the deck is doing right now, proving it's power. Also with the reprints of expensive lands on MTGO I really am thinking that this deck will start doing well online too.

Right now in paper the deck is about 2.7 grand with a large amount of that in just the Tabernacle. I would not be surprised to start seeing the deck pop up here and there in full sans the Tabernacle. That said, it is still not that much on the relative price of Legacy decks.

A new powerhouse? An awakening thanks to the Treasure Cruise meta perhaps but the deck is not going away. This is a wonderful time to be a Lands player.

[Arksz]

Deck to beat = more hate being put into boards haha

How do you guys approach death and taxes post board? Trying to get an early tabernacle seems important since it contains their board presence. It seems they usually sandbag the RIP when they can get some Juicy value from it. Should I keep in tranquil thickets to try and save the loam? Appreciate any advise!

[barcode]

I played a small event yesterday and cashed, along with two other people in the car. The event was 14 (±1) people. The matchups were pretty easy and going into round 4 I was 3-0 and drew with the 1st place guy (Temur Delver) to secure top 4.

I played this:


1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Dark Depths
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Maze of Ith
3 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
2 Manabond

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Primeval Titan
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
1 Cursed Totem


Round 1 I was up against James on UG Infect.

Game 1 is dominated by Maze of Ith. He never connects with an attack and then I make a 20/20. Our joint mulligans favour me more than him.

Game 2 I keep a slow hand with Sphere of Resistance and get punished by drawing another one. I wasn't able to cast it with a Mox so it came down on turn two. It was too late: He was on the play and had creatures in play. He pays for Invigorate and delves an extra spell to make a 12/12 Glistener Elf. Him wasting me off my Taiga early didn't help at all. I couldn't cast any coloured mana spells like Punishing Fire or Life from the Loam. I realize that some of the Spheres should be Chalice of the Void.

Game 3 we both take the mulligan again. My 2 Wasteland, Stage and Depths is just too slow for this matchup. My six cards were much better. So I cut two spheres for two Chalices and then get to battle. I start off with a Mox and a tapped Thicket and get my Exploration forced. He leads with just a land and passes. Pretty strange not to see a 1 mana guy. I punish him with a Sphere of Resistance and then he shows his Glistener Elf. It doesn't matter. I play Tabernacle, light on mana sources. He pays and hits me for 1. He tries to get in five infect by tapping an Inkmoth Nexus for :1: to pay for Invigorate but he's blown out by Crop Rotation for Maze of Ith. The game settles like this for a while with him unable to draw anything while I'm deploying mana-producing lands. The writing is clearly on the wall and he concedes.

1-0

Round 2 was the fastest round I've ever played with this deck. Zane was playing some Sultai concoction (Delver?) and he got dead by double 20/20 in both games. I didn't even take any damage.

2-0

Round 3 was much more intense. Ryan was also on BUG Delver.

Game 1 Sadly, Ryan gets an early Deathrite Shaman that I can't deal with and a flipped Delver. I'm on my last legs at three life when I rip the Dark Depths and take the game. He learns a harsh lesson: You stifle the Stage copy effect and not the Dark Depths 0 counter trigger. Oops, you're dead.

Game 2 I keep another slow one (when will I learn) and get run over by a Delver and Goyf before I can get anything going. I need to stop playing Spheres on the draw!

Game 3 I have Grove and Punishing Fire and acceleration. Snap keep. I fire some things and then he asks if the trigger on Fire is a trigger and may as well have screamed "I HAVE SURGICAL EXTRACTION!". He decides to trade two Deathrite Shamans and his Surgical for my one Punishing Fire, which suits me fine. (Why he didn't extract in response to the Grove trigger I don't know).

So there are no Punishing Fires in my deck. but there are two Primeval Titans, a bunch of Stages and two Dark Depths. We durdle for a while before he plays a puny Goyf and attacks me for 2 and then I resolve Primeval Titan. He had so few resources after making the unfavourable trade of 1 for 3 I knew the one card in his hand was a Stifle revealed earlier to Delver. He did stifle the search trigger but that didn't matter. I had Mazes holding off his team and I could take 3 from a flipped Delver (instead of two 6/7 goyfs) and then just attack him next turn, search up lands and make a 20/20. That's exactly what I did, getting Depths and Tabernacle. He double blocked with Goyfs and I mazed my Titan (ha ha). He asks if he can stack his Delver reveal and Tabernacle trigger favourably for him and I explain that he can since they're all his triggers. He shows me a Ponder and I make a 20/20 with my untapped Stage. He ships in with 1 Delver and 2 Goyfs. I throw my Titan under the Goyf bus and kill the other Goyf with my 20/20 and eat 3 to the face. Then I put him into the Abyss with Merit Liege with Mazes to hold off any counterattack. He finds air and I win 2-1.

Now I'm 3-0 and secure a spot in the top 4 cut along with Hugo who came in the car with us. We ID in round 4 and grab a small bite to eat.

Top 4 is Wilkin (who posts on this forum), myself, Hugo and a Sneak Attack player. We all split and take home $100 store credit. Everyone is out the door by 5pm.

Some lessons learned for myself: The list is very good - I've been making money with it for weeks at high value FNM events (winning a Force of Will a couple weeks ago and losing in round 4 last Friday, where a Goyf was up). I need to find a spot for a Pithing Needle in the sideboard. My matchup against Sneak Attack is rough (played it Friday) and moving to 3 sphere, 1 needle will shore that up some, I think. Overall I'm happy with the deck.

[Rook1e]

What do you guys think about cutting Glacial Chasm? I know it can win games by itself, but honestly, I haven't been in a situation in at least 20 matches where I needed it. Maybe it is just me (or my meta), but it seems unnecessary at this point.

[Chatto]

What do you guys think about cutting Glacial Chasm? I know it can win games by itself, but honestly, I haven't been in a situation in at least 20 matches where I needed it. Maybe it is just me (or my meta), but it seems unnecessary at this point.

I have the same feeling, however I think having a panicbutton is pretty nice. I wouldn't cut Chasm unless there is a better panicbutton.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

It is appearing that we might end up a DTB again. So true and it's ugly. Have I mentioned that I hate getting spanked by this deck. R/G Lands is the winningest deck in my area in the last month. Perhaps WoTC will print a card that says something like: "Whenever a player puts a nonbasic land on the battlefield, that player takes 2 damage and that player's opponents each get a sandwich."

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

The lord of rivendell ventures out from the deep elvish woods

That aside, does anyone have any thoughts on the turbo eldrazi MU, it seems harder than it really should (people who play needle maindeck make me feel angry with rage), sure we have the tools to attack their mana (I still have ghost quarter main, which helps) but they can combo is out just fast enough.

[Rivfader]

The lord of rivendell ventures out from the deep elvish woods

That aside, does anyone have any thoughts on the turbo eldrazi MU, it seems harder than it really should (people who play needle maindeck make me feel angry with rage), sure we have the tools to attack their mana (I still have ghost quarter main, which helps) but they can combo is out just fast enough.

I see the matchup as a coinflip, slightly in their favor, between manadenial and a welltimed combofinish versus them slipping through the manadenial (needle, S&T) and dealing with our combo. They have a lot of answers against us, as Needle (Wasteland, Stage, Karakas), crop rotation (fetching Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Vesuva copying Bog), Repeal on Marit Lage.
Game 2 there's Krosan Grip to deal with Needle or Chalice of the Void which shuts down a huge part of their deck, and they usually don't have much extra from the side against us.

Glacial Chasm has won me games against Burn, Elves and even Belcher! Those are matchups though where a chasmloop wins the game.
But I don't think I ever succesfully used it as a panicbutton (things going bad versus a fair deck, getting chasm, and from there on winning). Still, I will definitely keep it in my main.

[Dice_Box]

I have heard of people saying that Chasm is a weak card. That "If you go for it, you admit that you have misplayed". I have to disagree, it is the strongest at what it does and some decks can just not answer it. I would only cut it if something better was printed, as that seems unliklely l just keep it around. Mostly because there are some decks that just can not beat it and answers are always good to have. I feel no more shame fetching out Chasm against Elves than I feel fetching out Wasteland against BUG.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

I feel no more shame fetching out Chasm against Elves than I feel fetching out Wasteland against BUG. What more can I say? This could be a bumpersticker for R/G Lands, an odious concoction of mean, cruel, and effective.

I mean, sticking my cousins in some frozen chasm . . . as if that were sporting.

[saur]

I have heard of people saying that Chasm is a weak card. That "If you go for it, you admit that you have misplayed". I have to disagree, it is the strongest at what it does and some decks can just not answer it. I would only cut it if something better was printed, as that seems unliklely l just keep it around. Mostly because there are some decks that just can not beat it and answers are always good to have. I feel no more shame fetching out Chasm against Elves than I feel fetching out Wasteland against BUG.

Just to build on this, I find that Chasm requires a lot of planning to use. Crop Rotating for it when lethal is on the board is nice to have as an out, but a smart opponent will run out their own Wasteland first or save a counterspell for your Crop Rotation. Since it's so common to get blown out this way, it's almost never correct to use it as a "panic button" against these two types of decks unless you're holding double Crop Rotation to power through a Counterspell, or you have your own Rishadan Port/Wasteland to answer the opposing Wasteland before Crop Rotating (sometimes you need both to stay alive).

With some foresight, you don't need to jump so many hurdles in order to get an effective Glacial Chasm. If you're still digging with Loam and while you still have life to pay the upkeep every other turn, if your opponent has two Goyfs on board and they're tapped out, or if you know they don't have a Wasteland in their deck, it's sometimes correct to tutor our the Chasm during your main phase to buy some extra turns. When you dodge the counterspell and have a healthy life total to play with, the opponent's Wasteland isn't so devastating, especially since you're getting it back next turn.

Here are some matchups where I've found this useful:

Infect - Chasm is your only out in a lot of games. Vines of Vastwood during main phase blanks Maze of Ith. Any non-Berserk pump spell or Pendelhaven blanks Punishing Fire on their combo turn. Play around their Wasteland by holding up Stage to copy Chasm. Find it early, since you'll have your Crop Rotation countered if you wait for the last minute. Don't forget to sacrifice your Forest/Taigas so you can make a 20/20 without worrying about Submerge post-board.

Delver - There's a lot of small windows to find Chasm. Try to read the Delver player's hand and use Crop Rotation to exploit a bad draw. When they Ponder for land and leave cards on top, go for it if you don't think they don't have a Wasteland. If you put them on countermagic, make them counter your Loam a few times before pulling the trigger. If they're holding up counterspells and letting Loam resolve, they're probably not stopping your primary plan game plan. Once you get the recurring Chasm, you can take your time to Wasteland/Tabernacle lock them out of the game or make a 20/20.

TL;DR - Lands is not great as a reactive deck. Chasm steals games if you plan it in advance. This is plan B for when you can't make a 20/20.

[Chatto]

(A lot of good and useful information)

TL;DR - Lands is not great as a reactive deck. Chasm steals games if you plan it in advance. This is plan B for when you can't make a 20/20.

This strikes me as good, but also awkward information. Being the control deck, I used to consider Chasm as a last out. The way you present the use of Chasm makes a lot of sense, though. Thank you :smile:

[Rivfader]

What more can I say? This could be a bumpersticker for R/G Lands, an odious concoction of mean, cruel, and effective.

I mean, sticking my cousins in some frozen chasm . . . as if that were sporting.

I have to admit I really enjoy crop rotating into an early Tabernacle or a Chasm in response to a Craterhoof Alphastrike :) There's probably no matchup were Tabernacle and Chasm shine as they do versus Elves ...

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I have to admit I really enjoy crop rotating into an early Tabernacle or a Chasm in response to a Craterhoof Alphastrike :) There's probably no matchup were Tabernacle and Chasm shine as they do versus Elves ...Burn is another one of my favorite times for it to shine. I've had multiple burn players read chasm a few times and then still aim a burn spell at me.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

I have to admit I really enjoy crop rotating into an early Tabernacle or a Chasm in response to a Craterhoof Alphastrike :) There's probably no matchup were Tabernacle and Chasm shine as they do versus Elves ... Don't I know it. I've been foiled too many times by a rotated Chasm in response to my lovely Natural Order. Like I said before, WoTC needs to print, oh, say, an elf that taps to exile nonbasic lands and runs a hot bath . . . or something like that.

[saur]

What matchups are people having problems with? I'm having trouble against infect. I can't see how it's a favorable matchup like the primer says, even after playing it 100+ times (it's my brother's pet deck right now). Basically, you need to commit to a game plan as early as turn 2 and hope your opponent can't beat you. Depending on your opening hand, these are your options:

-Grove/Punishing fire soft lock. Loses if infect player has Pendelhaven, Crop Rotation, or 2+ pump spells. Takes three land drops to get online.
-Wasteland/Tabernacle soft lock. Awkward at best. Hierarch pays for itself under Tabernacle. One forest is enough to cast and pay for Glistener Elf. Finding Ghost Quarter before they resolve one is not realistic. Invigorate is also free. If you go for the Wasteland lock, it's very difficult to assemble Depths/Stage quickly.
-Maze of Ith/Glacial Chasm soft lock. Maze of Ith uses a land drop and is completely dead to main phase Vines. They can also find Wasteland more often than you'd think if they see Chasm coming. Finding Chasm early will set you back at least two turns to assemble a win or another one of the above locks since it loses a land, eats a land drop, and probably delays you from casting Loam for one turn.
-Depths/Stage. Chump blocked by Inkmoth Nexus, so you need Port/Wasteland backup. Even then, you can still get chumped if they have Vines. Also loses to Wasteland and Karakas, which they can find with Crop Rotation.

As far as sideboard goes, I board out all but one copy of Maze of Ith, Bojuka Bog, and one copy of Tranquil Thicket. I bring the Depths count to 4 and some amount of Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle. I found that I don't like Sphere, since it slows down your game plan as well. What are your thoughts?

Does anyone else have extensive experience with this matchup?

Side note: I'm 1-0 against ANT at my LGS, my opponent was silly enough to fetch out his Tropical Island with two Spheres in play, so I wasted it and he never could cast Abrupt Decay without running out Lotus Petal first. Still, it's always going to be a terrible matchup and there's not much we can do about it. Sigh.

[Rivfader]

What matchups are people having problems with? I'm having trouble against infect.


I find Infect quite manageable, because they're vulnerable to almost everything you run. So many nonbasics for wasteland, all creatures within punishable range, no preboard answers to Marit Lage. That doesn't mean it's an easy matchup, they can kill you very quick, but usually they need more resources to do so than you need to hold them off.

You can look at the matchup in an opposite way: They need to defensively invest resources (crop rotation, Pendelhaven, pumpspells) to beat Punishing Fire, which won't be spent for the offense. They need Vines of Vastwood to bypass Maze of Ith (don't side them out), so that's another card to cantrip for besides infectguys and pump. If you hold on to crop rotation, you can get Glacial Chasm after they pumped their guy with vines (and hopefully berserk) for an alphastrike (unless they have a (hard)counter as well, besides the setup of an infectguy + lethal pumpspells). I think their best shot of winning is in the first few turns, after that they'll have a hard time punching through manadenial, Pfire, maze/chasm, and Marit Lage lurking around the corner.

[barcode]

I agree. It felt like everything the Infect player was trying to do was stymied by just having executing our normal gameplan. They typically play one Forest which makes Wasteland live. Maze of Ith forces them to have exactly Vines of Vastwood, which they have only four copies of total. Tabernacle pinches their mana and so does Rishadan Port.

Obviously it's important, as always, to have Exploration or Manabond. Never Punishing Fire in combat and you'll be fine.

After sideboard they have a hard time with Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance.


(Edit: I mean Infect, not Elves, as I had written originally.)

[Jesture]

I find Infect quite manageable, because they're vulnerable to almost everything you run. So many nonbasics for wasteland, all creatures within punishable range, no preboard answers to Marit Lage. That doesn't mean it's an easy matchup, they can kill you very quick, but usually they need more resources to do so than you need to hold them off.

Infect pressures much harder than Lands. They tend to close out games by turn 5-6 at the very latest, giving you very little time to set up Loam loops, and without those you just don't have the resources to bleed them dry. It's true that you've got a deck chock-full of relevant cards, but those cards tend to be strongest when recurred with Grove/Loam. Outside of this recursion, however, the decks components are relatively weak, they do very little without Loam + time to set up.


You can look at the matchup in an opposite way: They need to defensively invest resources (crop rotation, Pendelhaven, pumpspells) to beat Punishing Fire, which won't be spent for the offense. They need Vines of Vastwood to bypass Maze of Ith (don't side them out), so that's another card to cantrip for besides infectguys and pump. If you hold on to crop rotation, you can get Glacial Chasm after they pumped their guy with vines (and hopefully berserk) for an alphastrike (unless they have a (hard)counter as well, besides the setup of an infectguy + lethal pumpspells). I think their best shot of winning is in the first few turns, after that they'll have a hard time punching through manadenial, Pfire, maze/chasm, and Marit Lage lurking around the corner.

You have no consistency without the card advantage of recurring Loams. Using the terms "infect guy" and "pump spells" should showcase why the matchup is so difficult, your answers identify your silver bullet cards that need to be found to deal with 12 creatures and 10 pump spells while powering through soft counters. Redundancy in deck building combined with the power of blue cantrips means that Infect's draws will be more consistent than yours across multiple games. Hoping to draw specific answers for their nonspecific threats means you'll drop a lot of games to simply not having the tools to handle the problem.

[Rivfader]

Sure Infect pressures harder than Lands, it's a deck that can kill you turn 2 with the perfect hand, versus a control deck (with a combofinish). But you seem to disregard Lands as a slow recursive loamengine, which it (evidently) isn't. Exploration, manabond, crop rotation, gamble, they're all 1 mana cards which make Lands explosive. Lands has 8 1-mana tutors, how is that not consistent?

(Edit:rewrote last part of the post cause it was badly written)
Against Infect, all strategic lines as manadenial, Pfire, Mazes, Tabernacle ... can be effective. And they come back from the graveyard, which they do at a much greater speed and consistency than you suggest and can trade one-for-one over and over (while Pfire/Grove and exploration breaking the symmetry), which Infect cannot, as it is limited to the recources it cantrips together. Keeping infect creatures alive from punishing fire is not that easy, especially with exploration creating lots of mana, and using Invigorate or a Vines to keep them alive makes you loose an offensive card. Beating Maze with Vines works great, but you need to have/cantrip one first, whereas Lands has a very good consistency in finding the land it needs, while holding back a crop rotation for stack interaction that can mess up the Infect combo plan through Vines afterall.
From a Lands player point of view, I like playing the matchup. Not because it is overly favored (I do think we're favored though), but because Infect allows us to fully play our game in all its facets, manadenial and creaturecontrol.

[gigapatrick]

You have no consistency without the card advantage of recurring Loams. Using the terms "infect guy" and "pump spells" should showcase why the matchup is so difficult, your answers identify your silver bullet cards that need to be found to deal with 12 creatures and 10 pump spells while powering through soft counters. Redundancy in deck building combined with the power of blue cantrips means that Infect's draws will be more consistent than yours across multiple games. Hoping to draw specific answers for their nonspecific threats means you'll drop a lot of games to simply not having the tools to handle the problem.

You're misidentifying the problem. I don't think that Infect is an easy matchup for Lands at all, but you're confusing the reason why. You're suggesting the problem is consistency (which it isn't, since Lands is super consistent) when the actual problem is tempo. Does Lands have the tools necessary to consistently find its answer cards? Sure, it's got eight tutors and four copies of a spell analogous to Ancestral Recall. The issue it, can it find its answers in time against an aggressive deck that can either play like a combo deck that kills on turn two or a tempo deck that whittles down your life total with a million counterspells as backup? Sometimes it can't, and that's why Infect is tough.

[Jesture]

You're misidentifying the problem. I don't think that Infect is an easy matchup for Lands at all, but you're confusing the reason why. You're suggesting the problem is consistency (which it isn't, since Lands is super consistent) when the actual problem is tempo. Does Lands have the tools necessary to consistently find its answer cards? Sure, it's got eight tutors and four copies of a spell analogous to Ancestral Recall. The issue it, can it find its answers in time against an aggressive deck that can either play like a combo deck that kills on turn two or a tempo deck that whittles down your life total with a million counterspells as backup? Sometimes it can't, and that's why Infect is tough.

You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.

[Rampart]

You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.

I really think that its depends on the pilots skill level, an experienced lands pilot or infect pilot makes a huge difference especially in the non common match ups which lands vs infect is. I have personally noob crushed the hell out of infect but it doesn't mean much.

If you talking about two pilots of high skill levels then it depends on a couple factors like who is on the play, how powerful the opening hands of the respective decks are etc but its probably 55-45 lands. The only reason I say that is Lands as the Lands deck is able to interact at every level of infects gameplan while that is not true for infect.

Also lands can squeeze a win out of an aggressive tempo deck before the game even starts as the deck is built to crush creatures decks. There is some opening hands that you get with lands that are over before the game even starts, its just how long it takes for your opponents to scoop.

additionally I was wrong about seismic assault. I just finished my weekly legacy night with me discarding ten lands form my hand on turn 4 or 5 to kill a death and taxes pilot after I broke a Pithing needle naming assault on turn two. Insane






I

[gigapatrick]

You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.

Yeah, 55/45 Infect seems reasonable. Maybe even a little more in Infect's favor. I know I've gotten crushed by it pretty hard.

[Ingo]

Yeah, 55/45 Infect seems reasonable. Maybe even a little more in Infect's favor. I know I've gotten crushed by it pretty hard.

Infect blows you out, or else it usually loses as Lands will take over the game.
Blowing you out with protection requires quite some resources, and they will have problems to build up recources (lands, infecters, growspells) if you fend them off, while Lands builds up answers by cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire and has a combo of its own.

I have more wins than losses versus Infect and consider Lands a bit favored, because, as stated above, Lands can interact with all of Infects gameplan.
Basicly our gameplan is to avoid 12 infecters from connecting combatdamage.
All their infecters can be killed by Punishing Fire, and you have gamble to get it or crop rotation to get Grove of the Burnwillows.
All their attacks can be stopped by maze of Ith (although Vines of Vastwood is an answer to maze)
An early comboblowout can be stopped by Glacial Chasm.
Wasteland destroys 4 of their infect-resources.
We have crop rotation (and slower dredges) to find these.
They run about 10 spells to make their infecter grow, if you manage to handle their infecters, these are 10 spells that do nothing on their own.

Besides dealing with the infecters, which is our basic gameplan, they are soft to wasteland.
They don't need much manaresources, so it's best to focus on their Infecters.
But landdestruction and creaturecontrol tends to merge anyways with this deck.

It's a tempo-deck, and like other tempodecks, having exploration to keep up will make a huge difference.
This is written from the point of view of Lands.
It might be interesting to read how an Infectplayer perceives things.

[Jesture]

Infect blows you out, or else it usually loses as Lands will take over the game.
Blowing you out with protection requires quite some resources, and they will have problems to build up recources (lands, infecters, growspells) if you fend them off, while Lands builds up answers by cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire and has a combo of its own.

I have more wins than losses versus Infect and consider Lands a bit favored, because, as stated above, Lands can interact with all of Infects gameplan.
Basicly our gameplan is to avoid 12 infecters from connecting combatdamage.
All their infecters can be killed by Punishing Fire, and you have gamble to get it or crop rotation to get Grove of the Burnwillows.
All their attacks can be stopped by maze of Ith (although Vines of Vastwood is an answer to maze)
An early comboblowout can be stopped by Glacial Chasm.
Wasteland destroys 4 of their infect-resources.
We have crop rotation (and slower dredges) to find these.
They run about 10 spells to make their infecter grow, if you manage to handle their infecters, these are 10 spells that do nothing on their own.

Besides dealing with the infecters, which is our basic gameplan, they are soft to wasteland.
They don't need much manaresources, so it's best to focus on their Infecters.
But landdestruction and creaturecontrol tends to merge anyways with this deck.

It's a tempo-deck, and like other tempodecks, having exploration to keep up will make a huge difference.
This is written from the point of view of Lands.
It might be interesting to read how an Infectplayer perceives things.

I'm rather against analyzing match-ups in the "A accounts for B" way, as it tends to skew perspective of the matchup over several games.

Example: Imagine you have a Punishing Fire, so you're now searching for a Grove in order to set up the soft lock. Cards in stock Infect list that would interact with this plan are:
Every Counter Spell (Daze, FoW, Pierce)
Most Pump Spells (Invigorate, Vines, Become Immense)
Crop Rotation (Pendelhaven, Wasteland)

Total is about 20 cards, give or take per list

As an example, Punishing Fire does 2 damage and every creature in infect has 1 toughness, so it seems like a catch-all answer for threats. But that card is a 4 of in your deck, and you need a pretty strong hand (engine card + Grove) otherwise in order to Gamble for it. In the face of G1 soft counters (Daze, Pierce), Pendelhaven, Crop Rotation to fetch Pendlehaven, and 10-ish pump spells, how likely are you to set up a turn that lets you Punishing Fire a creature out? You'd need until about turn 4 or 5 in order to set up a turn where you can Punishing Fire twice, excluding any soft counters they might have. Even if they're using their pump spells in a purely defensive manner, Infect is still poised to win 5 or so attacks.

This is just a small snippet on Punishing Fire, but what it comes down to is Infect's tools are more versatile. Counterspells are just tools to tempo Lands out, generally for time-walking Loam plays or stopping Crop Rotation in its tracks. Vines of Vastwood is an All-Star, as it addresses Maze, Punishing Fire, and Wasteland in some situations. Crop Rotation does work in this matchup, doing double duty to both Waste out problem Lands and to fetch up Pendelhaven to fight Punishing Fire (also fuels delve, but that's more of a secondary benefit). In short, almost every card in Infect has multiple uses in the matchup while the inverse isn't true. This in conjunction with Infect's speed means that Lands generally has 4-5 turns in order to sculpt a hand with several specific answers, while Infect consistently has more versatile cards that can deal with multiple plans of attack from Lands.

[Chatto]

Infect is a combo-deck, so I tend to stick to the following:

+4 Sphere, -4 Port.
+1 (or 2) Assault, -1 Forest.

Everything you do, will likely draw counters. Exploration? Kills soft counters, bad. Loam? Manadenial, bad. P-Fire? Kills creatures, bad. Assault? Kills in general, bad.

Still, it's a hard MU, because they are basically a combo-deck on legs.

[Ingo]

I'm rather against analyzing match-ups in the "A accounts for B" way, as it tends to skew perspective of the matchup over several games.

... In short, almost every card in Infect has multiple uses in the matchup while the inverse isn't true. This in conjunction with Infect's speed means that Lands generally has 4-5 turns in order to sculpt a hand with several specific answers, while Infect consistently has more versatile cards that can deal with multiple plans of attack from Lands.

You are right about disregarding an analysis from A to B, games are much more complex than that. You have listed how a Punishing Fire can be answered in about 20 ways. Ofcourse this argumentation can reversely be used versus an infected attacker:
3x maze + 4x crop rotation to get it.
4x punishing Fire + 4x gamble to get it.
4x Grove of the Burnwillows to retrieve the Punishing Fire and play it again, and 4x crop rotation to get the Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Life from the Loam to blindflip into any of these pieces (preferably backed up by exploration).
And 4x crop rotation, as a final backup, to get Glacial Chasm, blanking a comboattack.
This listing is also simplistic (but I think i've beaten you in having listed more than 20 cards :smile:), and you won't be convinced ofcourse, as I'm not convinced by yours.

You have too much faith in the counterspell package, which is less elaborate than for example RUG Delver. R/G Lands was made to deal with the fastness of such tempodecks, with gamble and croprotation as one-manatutors getting under softcounters, especially with exploration or Mox Diamond accelerating Lands' manasources. Softcounters can be a Timewalk, but versus 1-manatutors and an accelerated manabase, they're also often dead cards. Softcounters also trade one-for-one, and Punishing Fire comes back every turn with 2 mana and a Grove. RG Lands exploits Punishing Fire to the fullest, having gamble to get it, crop rotation to get Grove, and mana acceleration to pay for it.

You also listed growspells (Invigorate, Vines, Become Immense will need time to cast) to protect the infecters. The Punishing Fire might as well have been a Thoughtseize here stripping you of a valuable combocard, trading you down one for one. That's the equivalent of 4 singular attacks (if a softcounter can be perceived as a Timewalk, then Lands is timewalking here as well). The next turn though, Punishing Fire can come back for another shot. How many times can you protect your infecter with growspells, and still set up a succesful attack with multiple poisoncounters, through a returning Punishing Fire? Pendelhaven serves as protection, but this card is up against wasteland, loam and exploration, and so are the other nonbasic lands Infect runs.
Maze of Ith is a problem as well, as it stops every infecter from connecting. Vines will guide an infecter past the Maze, but if you don't have them, Maze halts any of your attacks, no matter how many counters or other resources you have in hand. Crop rotation is a virtual Maze 4-7, while Vines is usually a 3-off with a limited cantrip package (4 brainstorm and a ponder?) to find them. That's a rather low amount of cantrips and combined with 10 growspells that do nothing on their own, this is less consistent than most bluebased decks usually are. Then again, Infect also runs the lone maindeck crop rotation which could get the single wasteland.

Getting a Glacial Chasm with crop rotation is a very efficient response to an infected comboattack. Multiple growspells are spent, poison counters dodged, and the price paid (crop rotation and a sacced land) is returned through the cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire. Infects growspells though are gone forgood, and it will take time to cantrip into business again. You can argue that the crop rotation can be countered, but you would probably need a Force of Will, as a 1mana croprotation is hard to softcounter. Holding back a crop rotation for a card like Chasm also potentially gets one of the missing Depths - Stage combopieces. Just like Infect crop rotates EOT for Inkmoth Nexus, Marit Lage pops up in the same way. Infect has no maindeck way to deal with the token, and in the fastest circumstances it attacks turn 3 (disregarding a perfect manabond hand).

You overestimate Infects efficiency by basing it on superb infect hands, where you have an ideal cardmix of infecters, lands, growspells, cantrips and superefficient softcounters (essentially timewalking the opponent), while you depict Lands as a slow deck needing 4/5 turns to get any form of defense online. That's not a realistic portret of the matchup. I do not underestimate the versatility, consistency and fastness of Infect (I respect it as it is also an original and powerful concept, refreshing in a cantrip Legacy scene stitching staplecards together). I do think though you underestimate Lands ability to deal with Infect, as R/G Lands is basically designed to deal with this kind of (small creatures, nonbasic manabase) deck.

[Dice_Box]

Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds

What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.

[door]

Infect is a combo-deck, so I tend to stick to the following:

+4 Sphere, -4 Port.
+1 (or 2) Assault, -1 Forest.

Everything you do, will likely draw counters. Exploration? Kills soft counters, bad. Loam? Manadenial, bad. P-Fire? Kills creatures, bad. Assault? Kills in general, bad.

Still, it's a hard MU, because they are basically a combo-deck on legs.

I would not side out all of the ports. They are maze of iths for Inkmoth Nexuses and make the overall mana denial plan better. Instead, I'd go with taking out 1 port, 1 thicket, 1 karakas, 1 bog or maybe 1 stage. Also i'd think about siding Chalice, because it turns off 3/4th of the infect's spells.

Overall about the matchup in my vision: infect's best line is a well prepared 1 turn kill (not to confuse with a first turn kill). This case is a hard day for lands. If the game goes to mid/late stage, than infect will soon run out of cards, due to recurrable fires, mazes, etc. The practical question is, does the infect player realize that or not.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds

What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.Seems like a great little video. It would be a good intro for anyone who has no idea what the deck is trying to do and just wants a quick overview.

[Rivfader]

Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds

What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.

It's a nice vid, just 1 comment, somewhere there's mentioned Dark Depths can be stifled. It can, but it makes no difference as it will trigger again immediatly.

Seismic Assault is described as a sidecard versus control featuring StP. I side it though against every deck giving me enough time (midrange - control), basically replacing manabond. It cheats with loam just like manabond does, exchanging speed for a mid- lategame blowout. It has also come in handy for me versus cards that shut of a line of play, like extraction on Depths/Pfire, or Meddling Mage on PFire, as another killcondition and a way to control troublesome creatures (like Knight of the Reliquary).

[Dice_Box]

I always thought of assault as being at its strongest when Blood Moon was kicking round. The times I have run it I have found its CMC prohibitive. It's not impossible to cast but it is almost always hard to cast it fast. It is the reason I cut it.

I understand it has its other uses but far too often I find I would just rather have Primeval Titan in its place. If I was going into a large event though, I would take the anti Moon tec.

[barcode]

I always thought of assault as being at its strongest when Blood Moon was kicking round. The times I have run it I have found its CMC prohibitive. It's not impossible to cast but it is almost always hard to cast it fast. It is the reason I cut it.

I understand it has its other uses but far too often I find I would just rather have Primeval Titan in its place. If I was going into a large event though, I would take the anti Moon tec.

Primeval Titan IS the anti-Moon tech. Fetch your Forest and use your Moxes to cast P-time to bide your time until you draw a Krosan Grip.

[Chatto]

@ barcode: then why do all the last lists doing good only pack Seismic Assault? It also doesn't make sense seeing Prime-time as Anti-moon tech: you need to go through a lot of hoops getting him on the table, whereas Assault gets pretty easy cast. Only fetch your Forest to cast Loam and voilà!

Don't get me wrong, I love Prime-time and almost always pack one in my SB, but stating it's Anti-Moon tech is something I disagree with.

[Chatto]

Double post, but I found this article on Legit MTG (http://legitmtg.com/competitive/priemers-primers-lands-ho/) I would like share. I'm not sold on everything he writes, but it's a good, pretty basic, straightforward article, nevertheless.

[Dice_Box]

With the scores as they are, we are set to be a DTB this month.

Also that write up is not too bad. What it shows me though is the deck is gaining respect. People are paying attention, people are looking for information, people are taking lands seriously. While the Combo build is the more common, I am expecting an uptake in Control builds too making for an interesting cross pollination of ideas and builds. The hybrid build I think will have its own fans too. (Like myself) This is exciting.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So I played in a mini tournament and during the super fun games some weird question occurred.

Round 1 vs TES: 2-0
Game 1 he opened with gemstonemine into ponder. I played taiga, exploration, wasteland. Next turn wastelock then early combo!
Game 2 he couldn't play through 2 spheres and again early token!
TES has a horrible manabase!

Round 2 Belcher 2-0
Game 1 he mulled to 5 played landgrant and revealed only fast-mana, I go for an early token and connect.
Game 2 I sided out the mazes and the pfires. He played a turn 1 belcher but was 1 mana short to activate. I played taiga. Next turn he draw tinderwall and activated belcher. I respond with crop rotation on chasm. Eventually I got a chasmlock.

So I had multiple stages out (one on chasm). What exactly happens if I stage the stage(that is chasm)?

Ok the game goes on for a while and I played some spheres and stuff but I couldn't find a Ddephts. Eventually I found it but than I realised, if I want to attack with my token, I had to get rid of my chasm and he can belcher me. I had about 30 cards in my library milled my lone pithing needle and sided out all Pfires :(

Is it considered stalling if I know I cant win this game and continue to play to survive as long as possible?

Since I didn't care I just go for it and waste my chasm and attacked. He didn't belcher me. After the match I asked him why, he said he is new to legacy and didn't know what's going on the whole time...

Round 3 vs infect: 1-2
Game 1: Turn 1 token gg.
Game 2 and 3: I had all the answers but a very well timed FoW from my opponent always pushed through the last infecter!

[Dice_Box]

A Stage that has copied a land becomes that land, if you want to Stage targeting a Stage it will become whatever that Stage is. (Say that nine times fast.)

In short, you can copy a Stage that has copied a Chasm because as far as the game state is concerned, that Stage IS a Chasm with Stages ability attached.

On the stalling question. No, that's fine. If you keep updating the game state and you do it at a reasonable clip, your fine.

[Chatto]

Question; what is the general consensus about Tranquil Thicket vs. Horizon Canopy? I don't see many lists packing Canopy, but it could come in handy.

[Rivfader]

Question; what is the general consensus about Tranquil Thicket vs. Horizon Canopy? I don't see many lists packing Canopy, but it could come in handy.

I played Horizon Canopy for a while because it could draw a card, and be fetched by crop rotation. But I've never rotated for it, and never used it in some loam shenanigan, so it came down on being a land just costing life. I've cut it for the fourth fetchland, still running 2 tranquil thickets.

[Dice_Box]

I like it and run a 1/1 split. I am a fan of the way it interacts with Manabond and while it might hurt on those times where you have to use it for mana, I put a premium on initial mana sources and thus likely rate it higher than most would.

[Chatto]

I played Horizon Canopy for a while because it could draw a card, and be fetched by crop rotation. But I've never rotated for it, and never used it in some loam shenanigan, so it came down on being a land just costing life. I've cut it for the fourth fetchland, still running 2 tranquil thickets.

But that life gives you access to a colored mana, which I think is huge. I'm very pleased to draw one Thicket, but the second one sometimes feels 'useless'. Even if I would play it as a manasource, it just feels too slow


I like it and run a 1/1 split. I am a fan of the way it interacts with Manabond and while it might hurt on those times where you have to use it for mana, I put a premium on initial mana sources and thus likely rate it higher than most would.

My thought exactly, I will try this 1/1 split.

[Dice_Box]

If you side out Manabond, it's also worth thinking about siding out the Canopy too. Especially if you are siding in utility lands.

[door]

Recently I've been testing lands against a good player with miracles and the result worried me. It was around 25-75 preboard and the same! after board. I sided 9 cards: 4 Krosan Grip; 1 Choke; 1 Titan; 1 Assault; 1 Chalice; 1 Dark Depths. Miracles - classic build, sided in 1 EE; 1 Desinchant; 2 RIP. Although he knew my deck and knew what he should not do, still it shakes me a little bit. Perhaps it is the first time I played against a decent miracles player, because I did not have such big problems previously. What is your experience in general pre and after board?
I am going to test Worm Harvest main or SB and more chokes in SB. Worms are difficult to counter with balance because it requires finding 1 of 4 FoWs on top. Also you can dredge aggressivly in Game1 until you dredge into Harvest and after that just draw cards and recast it every turn until your opponent runs out of Terminus (or kills you earlier with Angels). Or Gamble into Harvest as soon as you recognize Miracles on that side of the table. Although Worms might be good only in game 1 because of RIP. Thoughts?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I can vouch for worm harvest at least coming from control lands. Smokestack and worm harvest are both really annoying for them to deal with and I definitely lean on them in that matchup.

Are you running ghost quarter? I still aggressively go after their white sources and it always seems to be a good way to go. I've seen it cut from a lot of RG lists though.

How did you side cards out?

[door]

I can vouch for worm harvest at least coming from control lands. Smokestack and worm harvest are both really annoying for them to deal with and I definitely lean on them in that matchup.

Are you running ghost quarter? I still aggressively go after their white sources and it always seems to be a good way to go. I've seen it cut from a lot of RG lists though.

How did you side cards out?

I believe the matchup is easier for RUG lands also because of EE+Academy Ruins. Unfortunately in RG lands we can't run silver bullet artifacts like EE and Smokestack without splashing in blue. I do run Ghost Quarter, yes. Always did =) But he was not fetching for a single white source until establishing Top+CB and the 2cmc on top, unless he needed to stp Marite Lage. Very tight and cautious play.

My side outs: Karakas, 1 Punishing Fire, Bojuka Bog, 2 Manabond, 2 Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Yeah it sounds like he knew exactly how to play it out and I think you boarded out great. Definitely not the most encouraging results. The counter-top lock on 2 was something I could never figure out with RG and it sounds like he was correctly prioritizing it. Having to draw a grip and hope he isn't floating a wear // tear feels like it's just playing into their game.

[Dice_Box]

I think if I was going to be playing Lands in a Meta with Miracles I would pick RUG a my deck choice. If I was set on staying RG I would be looking at some number of Choke and Crucible.

[Rivfader]

Recently I've been testing lands against a good player with miracles and the result worried me.

I also think it's not an easy matchup. I reserve 4 combo-sideboardslots for cards that help in the Miracles matchup as well, which is a mix of either pithing needle, choke or chalice of the void. Last time it was 4x chalice, this time 2x chalice, 1 choke, 1 slaughtergames, next time probably 2 chalice and 2x choke. Chalice does good work, denying cantrips and top on one end, and dodging swords on the other.

Played a 52-person tournament today, went 12th with 4-2 (Infect 1-2, Elves 2-1, Reanimator 2-0, Omnitell 1-2, Belcher 2-0, Pox 2-0).
I once had a perfect combohand in manabond, mox diamond, Stage, Depths and three lands (don't think I ever had that before). Looked like an easy win versus omnitell on the play, but alas, Force of Will decided differently ...

[Nikolai004]

Yeah it sounds like he knew exactly how to play it out and I think you boarded out great. Definitely not the most encouraging results. The counter-top lock on 2 was something I could never figure out with RG and it sounds like he was correctly prioritizing it. Having to draw a grip and hope he isn't floating a wear // tear feels like it's just playing into their game.
Wear and tear doesn't counter a k grip. When used for counterbalance it's either a 1 or 2. The only time it's a 3 drop is if fused and on the stack.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Yeah wasn't thinking there. Just a commonly floated spell for everything else.

[door]

I think if I was going to be playing Lands in a Meta with Miracles I would pick RUG a my deck choice. If I was set on staying RG I would be looking at some number of Choke and Crucible.

After some time of piloting RG Lands RUG seems to be so much slower, that I don't feel returning to it apart of the metagame. Crucible is another card I was looking at. Would you play it in main or sideboard? Would you adjust your game plan somehow with the addition of Crucible?

[Dice_Box]

Crucible would go in the side me thinks. I would play it with one of the two Ruins so I could grab it and likely only run the one. This has been in the back of my mind for a while now since locally I have seen an uptick in the amount of Surgical's played.

I think the strongest option though is Choke, Needle and Grip. Load up on the tried and true before you play with the new.

[door]

Dice_Box, pmed you with a small primer update.

[Chatto]

Guys, I am thinking about taking this deck to GP Lille, but the recent succes of Omnitell makes me wonder if this is going to be a good choice.

Sooo... My question is do we have a chance against Omnitell? If so, how do we board?

[Dice_Box]

Dice_Box, pmed you with a small primer update.
Only just saw this post, the update is done, working on the Artifact section now.


Guys, I am thinking about taking this deck to GP Lille, but the recent succes of Omnitell makes me wonder if this is going to be a good choice.

Sooo... My question is do we have a chance against Omnitell? If so, how do we board?
This is the Match I hate the most, worst part, it's played locally by a pair of fairly competent players... Sigh.

Running my non Artifact list, I would say the match is winnable, not great though but winnable thanks to two Choke I run in the side.

Out:
Ghost Quarter
Tabernacle
Wasteland (I only remove 2, only if you do not have choke)
Maze of Ith
Punishing Fire

In:
All your Grips.
Chalice
Some Spheres
Choke if you have it
Bog (They will Delve a lot)

Plan:
If you have a Port in hand when you start, Gamble for Choke NOT Loam. (Play the Port before you do this of course)
Mull anything that is not either Winning or laying down heavy Disruption in the first two turns. (Three if you must hold a hand)
Port is the most important card in your main bar none.
If they are using Ant's as a kill, keep Chasm in the main.
Wasteland should stay in the main if you are running Choke as a way to force Fetch cracks. Also stops SOL lands out of the board. If you are not running Choke, take 2 out.
Waste your own Bog often, if they have five cards in the Grave, wipe it clean.
Karakas will not win you many games here, but every so often it will, keep it in. (If it saves you one in 20 games, take that 5% and run with it)


Not sure if I missed anything, that's what comes straight to mind. How common a match is Omni in the EU anyway?

[Rivfader]

Guys, I am thinking about taking this deck to GP Lille, but the recent succes of Omnitell makes me wonder if this is going to be a good choice.

Sooo... My question is do we have a chance against Omnitell? If so, how do we board?

I'll be in Lille as well, playing Lands. Omnitell will probably be very well represented (just like Miracles), and I'm actually testing a single Iona as a gamble target, like the single chalice versus storm. It completely stops S&T > Omniscience > cantrips (their only out is wishing for Slaughter Pact pre-S&T or topdecking Emrakul), but does not stop S&T > Omniscience > Emrakul. Nor S&T > Emrakul, but in this scenario there's still Karakas.
Still an experiment, but it looks promising.

Between Choke, Sphere and Chalice, I find spheres the strongest as it's the only effective hatecard you can drop when S&T resolves for Omniscience, buying time to cast Krosan Grip or combo first. Often it's hard to resolve hate through all their counterspells.

[DML]

Only just saw this post, the update is done, working on the Artifact section now.


This is the Match I hate the most, worst part, it's played locally by a pair of fairly competent players... Sigh.

Running my non Artifact list, I would say the match is winnable, not great though but winnable thanks to two Choke I run in the side.

Out:
Ghost Quarter
Tabernacle
Wasteland (I only remove 2, only if you do not have choke)
Maze of Ith
Punishing Fire

In:
All your Grips.
Chalice
Some Spheres
Choke if you have it
Bog (They will Delve a lot)

Plan:
If you have a Port in hand when you start, Gamble for Choke NOT Loam. (Play the Port before you do this of course)
Mull anything that is not either Winning or laying down heavy Disruption in the first two turns. (Three if you must hold a hand)
Port is the most important card in your main bar none.
If they are using Ant's as a kill, keep Chasm in the main.
Wasteland should stay in the main if you are running Choke as a way to force Fetch cracks. Also stops SOL lands out of the board. If you are not running Choke, take 2 out.
Waste your own Bog often, if they have five cards in the Grave, wipe it clean.
Karakas will not win you many games here, but every so often it will, keep it in. (If it saves you one in 20 games, take that 5% and run with it)


Not sure if I missed anything, that's what comes straight to mind. How common a match is Omni in the EU anyway?

Hello, fellow lands player here.
I have a couple of questions regarding sideboard options.
I'm going to share my current sideboard (which is open for suggestions and improvement)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Depths
4 Krosan Grip
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Primeval Titan
1 Chalice of the Void

|||||||||||||||||||

How would you improve/change my current sideboard.
As far as playtesting have gone i currently have a 40-60 against Miracles and don't even know about combo matchups (i would say 30-70)

If someone more experienced with the deck could give me a couple of examples how you would sideboard depending on the matchup (decks to beat).
Thank you for your time and play Magic! =)

[gigapatrick]

On Omnitell: I've never faced it, but I know David Long has beaten it, so the matchup is winnable. You probably need a combination of Sphere effects and Choke, or a super fast Marit Lage kill, to win, though.


Hello, fellow lands player here.
I have a couple of questions regarding sideboard options.
I'm going to share my current sideboard (which is open for suggestions and improvement)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Depths
4 Krosan Grip
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Primeval Titan
1 Chalice of the Void

|||||||||||||||||||

How would you improve/change my current sideboard.
As far as playtesting have gone i currently have a 40-60 against Miracles and don't even know about combo matchups (i would say 30-70)

If someone more experienced with the deck could give me a couple of examples how you would sideboard depending on the matchup (decks to beat).
Thank you for your time and play Magic! =)

Your board seems fine, except that I wouldn't go into a Miracles meta (which it seems like every meta is, these days) without at least one Choke. Against it, I board in 4 Grip, 1 Needle, 1 Choke, 1 Prime Time, 1 Dark Depths, and probably even 2 to 4 Spheres of Resistance. My sideboard plan against them is this: Grips so I don't get locked out by CounterTop, Choke and Spheres so that I have a chance of locking them out of playing spells, Needle as a catch-all, Depths because you almost certainly want to board out Crop Rotation, and Prime Time as a dual threat that requires them to have an answer or die. Still, Miracles is an unfavorable matchup, and you're probably not going to win against a really competent Miracles player that often.

[Arksz]

No need to worry!

[Chatto]

(...) Still, Miracles is an unfavorable matchup, and you're probably not going to win against a really competent Miracles player that often.

Fortunately for us, there are a lot of not so skilled Miracles-players as well :wink:, but yeah it's pretty hard.

I really would like to see some vid of RG Lands vs Omnitell, anyone has a link?

[Dice_Box]

Sadly, I don't think there is one on YouTube. There may be one on Twitch somewhere but I am not great at using that site. Lands is not something that Star City really liked to show off, likely due to limited card sales for the deck, so they tended to skim over it. That big Legacy event they held, two day thing, they spent an afternoon singing the decks praises about how well it was doing and never showed it once.

One of your other options is to get a mate and run the deck though Cockatrice or proxy it across the dinner table. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

[door]

This Saturday we had the Russian legacy champs in Moscow. 102 people attended. I prepared to play RG lands with black splash but on the eve before the tourney turned the black into white. Everyone was talking about those Omni everywhere around and as my initial plan was to play Raven's Crime with the support of 2 Choke and 3 Spheres + Grips, after some brainstorming with friends in the kitchen I changed it to 2 Canonists, 3 Thalias, a Trinisphere, a Choke and an Enlightened tutor + Grips, which seemed more solid. I didn't face any Omni though and feel happy about it :tongue:

So my list (61):
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths

2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy

3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
1 Worm Harvest

4 Exploration
2 Manabond

Sideboard:
1 Dark Depths
1 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
3 Thalia
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Choke
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Zuran Orb

I decided to keep Worm Harvest in the Main deck as a savegame against Miracles in game1. In fact worms have a much stronger effect pre-board, because it is very vulnerable to just any grave hate, so I usually side it out. Now to my games:

Round 1, MonoB Pox
1: We don't have a real game, because I have a strong mana denial hand with loam and my opponent has a slight manascrew. I see a Bloodghast and decide that it is a control grave-centered build and side out 2 Mazes, Chasm and the Tabernacle.
2: His first turn is fetch for Swamp, double ritual, Tombstalker. Do I need to say that I don't see no Crop, no single Maze? It was a typical mistake when you think you are confident about the match up. I had to sideboard with more caution.
3: I bring back the Mazes. He has an early Negator followed by Tombstalker and multiple Wastelands. Luckily I hit double Maze and several Thespians with Loam and keep the creatures untapped. Then I gamble for Punishing Fire which targets Negator and soon brings me victory.
2-1; 1-0

Round 2, 4-c Aggro Loam
1: I have an agressive land hating hand and make sure my opponent can not cast anything.
2: I keep a nice hand with Mox and Exploration, but they get decayed. Then it's his turn to loam-waste my manabase. He keeps me on a single Forest not allowing to Loam, until he finds Scavenging Ooze and removes my Loam. By that time I have punishing fire and got lucky to topdeck a red source and kill it, while he mistakenly taps out (he had a creature in grave). It does not help me to recover though. Soon he plays a large KoTR but does not hurry with killing me, leaving a small chance. I could find Bojuka Bog and Punishing fire and deal with both KoTR and Loam, because he didn't bother to keep a fetch or Wasteland in play for pumping the knight and did keep Loam in Graveyard without a cycling land on hand. I don't get my chances and we move to game 3. In the last turn though he loams into Thespian's stage, which gives me a huge hint.
3: I have success in wasting his manabase until he extracts my wastelands. But it does not matter, as I already have a Port, a Quarter and Worm Harvest.
2-1; 2-0

Round 3, UWR delver
Both games I waste his manabase and kill promptly with Marit Lage
2-0; 3-0

Round 4, MUD
1: A fast hand with Mox, Exploration, Loam does not leave a chance for him. I kill him with 4 worms at leisure.
2: He starts with tomb - Grim Monolith - Crucible and makes a huge mistake putting Chalice at 0, not 1. Again I waste his mana and Crucible can not save him, even that I sided out Bojuka Bog.
2-0; 4-0

Round 5, Team America with stifles and confidants
1: I knew my opponent had a delver deck and decided to keep a risky hand with no business, but with Exploration, Mox and 5 lands including both combo pieces. I don't see loam during this game, but got lucky that my opponent does not have a timely Wasteland. Though he stifles my combo and I fall to 8 life, I manage to make it the turn after.
2: I have a slow hand and can't waste all his lands, giving him time to find answers. He finds a wasteland and beats me to 12 with Delver until I can waste his wasteland and have enough mana for the combo activation.
2-0; 5-0

Round 6, Shardless Bug
I am paired against the 12-point and he refuses to ID. I am ok with that, but something goes wrong. In both games I keep averagely good hands that should be enough for this match up, but I get both Exploration and Mox decayed, then my Loam is countered two times, while my lands Wasted. By that time he untappes with Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf. The second game was very similar with the exception that he started with 2 Shamans... I got really frustrated.
0-2; 5-1

Round 7, Goblins
My opponent offers ID, but I refuse, because I want to be sure that I make top8 and have good standings.
1: I keep a loam-less hand with fast combo, and he has a turbo start with Lackey, putting Ringleader into 4 goblins including Stingscourger and Matron. The Sting-man does not allow me to activate combo before he attacks and he makes some painful beating with the Piledriver. Than he plays wasteland and delays my combo for one more turn. I play wasteland and wait until his end step to finally make 20/20 and untap for the win, but on his turn he plays the second wasteland and this game is lost for me.
2: He has a fast start with Lackey, Piledriver and Warchief, but I Gamble for the Tabernacle and loam-waste his plan.
3: Once again he starts with Lackey, followed by Lackey and Warchief. By that time I have the Taber and Stage in play. He wastes my Taber wich I copy with Stage in responce while Loaming into some nice lands.
2-1; 6-1

Top8, TES
I face my old friend with TES, the deck I would like to avoid more than anything else.
1: I mulligan a wasteland hand into a Crop Rotation hand and hope for a tiny chance. He does not leave it to my with a turn 1 secure kill.
2: I keep a nice hand with Exploration, Trinisphere and lands. Luckily for my he does not kill me on turn 1. I put Trini on my second turn and win soon after. He says, he could play a duress, but was afraid that his single land would be wasted.
3: I double mulligan into a strange hand: Gamble, Depths, Grove, Manabond, Bojuka. He starts without action and I have time to gamble for Canonist, Crop for Karakas and play Canonist. Which is then decayed. I topdeck and play Thalia but he manages to kill me through it. I am happy for my friend though.
1-2. 6-2 overall and I take my first Candelabra of Tawnos as a prize.

I will continue testing this list, as I feel it is well prepared against Miracles and Omni. Always open to a discussion.

[Chatto]

Congrats! Some questions:

- what exactly was stifled?
- wouldn't a Choke or two alongside Sphere give you more game?
- How good was Worm Harvest?

[ivy]

Round 2, 4-c Aggro Loam
1: I have an agressive land hating hand and make sure my opponent can not cast anything.
2: I keep a nice hand with Mox and Exploration, but they get decayed. Then it's his turn to loam-waste my manabase. He keeps me on a single Forest not allowing to Loam, until he finds Scavenging Ooze and removes my Loam. By that time I have punishing fire and got lucky to topdeck a red source and kill it, while he mistakenly tapps out (he had a creature in grave). It does not help me to recover though. Soon he plays a large KoTR but does not hurry with killing me, leaving a small chance. I could find Bojuka Bog and Punishing fire and deal with both KoTR and Loam, because he didn't bother to keep a fetch or Wasteland in play for pumping the knight and did keep Loam in Graveyard without a cycling land on hand. I don't get my chances and we move to game 3. In the last turn though he loams into Thespian's stage, which gives me a huge hint.
3: I have success in wasting his manabase until he extracts my wastelands. But it does not matter, as I already have a Port, a Quarter and Worm Harvest.
2-1; 2-0

Yes, i played not super optimally :frown:

Congrats with a good result! :)

[snorlaxcom]

This Saturday we had the Russian legacy champs in Moscow.

Where can coverage be found?

[door]

Where can coverage be found?

there was no video coverage, if you are looking for this. The top8 decklists should be published soon in this thread (http://topdeck.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=42741&st=180). The top8 consisted of: TES, miracles, reanimator, elves, shardless bug, dark maverick, infect and me. Infect won the tournament.


Congrats! Some questions:

- what exactly was stifled?
- wouldn't a Choke or two alongside Sphere give you more game?
- How good was Worm Harvest?

- he stifled the Stage ability, delaying the combo for one turn.
- I do play choke. Did play 2 copies. With addition of white I changed the second Choke for enlightened tutor. Thalia is better than the sphere, because it can attack. Also I would not side Spheres against miracles, but would side Thalia. They'd have to spare another stp/terminus on her sooner or later. Sphere is better than Thalia, because it stacks with other spheres, can be cast with colorless mana and affects creature decks. In general, creature decks are good match ups, so it's not a big deal. I play 9 sources that can give white mana and 3 crops as an extra measure, it should be enough. As for stacking effect, I have to test more to be able to judge, how important is it.
- in my tests against Miracles it did not heal the match up, but in about 1 of 4 preboard games it made huge problems for the opponent. Also in some extreme situations, when dark depths is surgically extracted or you face ensnaring bridge or humility with no ways to destroy it, you still have a fast win con. It saves your nerves a lot :smile:

[Rivfader]

6-2 overall and I take my first Candelabra of Tawnos as a prize.


Congrats with the result, door! White splash makes sense with Karakas and Horizon Canopy providing white already.
I do think there's a risk involved in depending on a color splash for your hate, as you might not have it available when needed (crop rotating for it could have been a Stage or a Depths instead).
You like them that much more than sphere effects, perhaps because of the body?

Worm Harvest is interesting as preboard tech vs Miracles, how did Primeval Titan do?

That's some serious prizes they hand out at the Russion Legacy Champs, Candelabra of Tawnos sure is a nice reward for your efforts! Just curious, what were the other prices?

[Chatto]

(...)
- I do play choke. Did play 2 copies. With addition of white I changed the second Choke for enlightened tutor. Thalia is better than the sphere, because it can attack. Also I would not side Spheres against miracles, but would side Thalia. They'd have to spare another stp/terminus on her sooner or later. Sphere is better than Thalia, because it stacks with other spheres, can be cast with colorless mana and affects creature decks. In general, creature decks are good match ups, so it's not a big deal. I play 9 sources that can give white mana and 3 crops as an extra measure, it should be enough. As for stacking effect, I have to test more to be able to judge, how important is it. (...)

I now see that I just wrote down half of my question regarding Choke. The other half was regarding your 'Man Plan', which you have answered for the most part :smile: Interesting concept and one I will look into myself. Would Eidolon of the Great Revel or Gaddock Teeg pass as combo-hate/ Miracle-hate in your Man Plan?

Again, congrats!

[door]

Thank you, guys!


Congrats with the result, door! White splash makes sense with Karakas and Horizon Canopy providing white already.
I do think there's a risk involved in depending on a color splash for your hate, as you might not have it available when needed (crop rotating for it could have been a Stage or a Depths instead).
You like them that much more than sphere effects, perhaps because of the body?

Worm Harvest is interesting as preboard tech vs Miracles, how did Primeval Titan do?

That's some serious prizes they hand out at the Russion Legacy Champs, Candelabra of Tawnos sure is a nice reward for your efforts! Just curious, what were the other prices?

Yes, as I said, ability to bring damage with your piece of hate is an important factor. The color dependence is the payment for that. Primaval was good as always. Though I think I havn't cast it this time, I have no intention to cut it.
The total prize was 2200$ devided between the top16 in form of credits which you could spend on cards. This time they prepared some really nice staples including most of the legacy wanted cards foil and even unlimited Moxen and the prices were surprisingly low.


I now see that I just wrote down half of my question regarding Choke. The other half was regarding your 'Man Plan', which you have answered for the most part :smile: Interesting concept and one I will look into myself. Would Eidolon of the Great Revel or Gaddock Teeg pass as combo-hate/ Miracle-hate in your Man Plan?

Again, congrats!
Eidolon does nothing against Omni, I'm afraid. And Gaddock needs both green and white, which is too difficult for the first turns, when most of the time you start with just one fetch or a mox and some colorless lands.

[Chatto]

@ door: true, but with the rise of Omni I think Storm-combo in all it's forms can be espected to show up in numbers again. Then again, Sphere would do the trick as well. So maybe not Omni, but perhaps other combo (although it's use is narrow). About Teeg; I can see now why that one is easily dismissed.

[Chatto]

Nick Byrd made it to 10th place this weekend at Starcitygames Open Series: Cleveland Premier IQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83960). Some nice SB-choices, including Crucible Of Worlds, Titania, Protector of Argoth and maindeck Bojuka Bog (putting Karakas in the side). Also, 35 lands, dropping a Crop Rotation.

[Dice_Box]

Can anyone who has tested with Titania please PM me with their thoughts.

[Arksz]

Personally I am having a hard time with the Miracles matchup. Unfortunately I just do not have a good pilot to practice / grind games with. I did have an idea though, what about side boarding in Boseiju, Who Shelters All? It fits our land theme, can be tutored/recurred and means we can never be locked off loam. Miracles doesn't really pressure our health total so it might buy enough time to run them over.

Also curious as to how it works with the spheres. Since everything costs one extra colorless, if I were to use boseiju with to cast a crop rotation or gamble for two mana, would it be uncounertable?

[Rivfader]

Personally I am having a hard time with the Miracles matchup. Unfortunately I just do not have a good pilot to practice / grind games with. I did have an idea though, what about side boarding in Boseiju, Who Shelters All? It fits our land theme, can be tutored/recurred and means we can never be locked off loam. Miracles doesn't really pressure our health total so it might buy enough time to run them over.

Also curious as to how it works with the spheres. Since everything costs one extra colorless, if I were to use boseiju with to cast a crop rotation or gamble for two mana, would it be uncounertable?

It's at the very least an idea worth testing, and I have been experimenting with the same idea for some time now (Boseiju in the main). But regrettably, for now results weren't as good as you might think. Boseiju breaks the countertoplock, but doesn't disable Top; and I found it hard to create better loamadvantage than Miracles creates with an active top (multiple ways to deal with Marit Lage, Jace, Entreat dodging ports). Unless I had exploration/loam/Stage/Depths. Still an interesting idea, but not the silver bullet like Karakas of Bog can be.

And yes, this works as you say. Spheres in conjunction with Boseiju make crops/gambles uncounterable as well.

[DML]

Hi fellow Lands players.

I recently been to a small Legacy tournament, I went 2-3 in the end.

I just want to ask you a questions regarding *meddling mage*
I lost 2 of my games due to this card + naming punishing fire.
How to you usually play against Jeskai delver list or other list with meddling mage.

I know it's possible to play without punishing but it makes the matchup so much harder. Do you have any tips & tricks to think about ?

Thank you guys in advance for any answer / feedback =)

[Rivfader]

Hi fellow Lands players.

I recently been to a small Legacy tournament, I went 2-3 in the end.

I just want to ask you a questions regarding *meddling mage*
I lost 2 of my games due to this card + naming punishing fire.
How to you usually play against Jeskai delver list or other list with meddling mage.

I know it's possible to play without punishing but it makes the matchup so much harder. Do you have any tips & tricks to think about ?

Thank you guys in advance for any answer / feedback =)

Lands (and especially RG) works on a limited amount of cards, and these bottlenecks (loam, Pfire, Stage/Depths) are an inherent vulnerability of the deck. Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, extraction, ... are all cards that can shut down an entire strategic line.
Versus midrange/control try Seismic Assault, as it supplements creaturecontrol and is a fast killcondition along with loam (and bypasses Bloodmoon). Against Patriot/Jeskai Delver tripel red is too slow though, I would focus on the manadenial and pressuring with a welltimed token.

[Chatto]

Lands (and especially RG) works on a limited amount of cards, and these bottlenecks (loam, Pfire, Stage/Depths) are an inherent vulnerability of the deck. Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, extraction, ... are all cards that can shut down an entire strategic line.
Versus midrange/control try Seismic Assault, as it supplements creaturecontrol and is a fast killcondition along with loam (and bypasses Bloodmoon). Against Patriot/Jeskai Delver tripel red is too slow though, I would focus on the manadenial and pressuring with a welltimed token.

I would like to add the following: to me manadenial means Waste and Port, along with Tabernacle. This way your strategy becomes two-sided: manadenial and creature-control. Dropping a Marit Lage-token means extra pressure. It will be hard, mind you :smile:

[Rivfader]

I would like to add the following: to me manadenial means Waste and Port, along with Tabernacle. This way your strategy becomes two-sided: manadenial and creature-control. Dropping a Marit Lage-token means extra pressure. It will be hard, mind you :smile:

Resolving choke is amazing too, especially with Tabernacle.

[DML]

Resolving choke is amazing too, especially with Tabernacle.

Hi thanks for all the responses. So what i get from this is the matchup is quite hard. To improve two matchups in one smash. i'll add 1-2 chokes in my sideboard.
I was thinking about assault but it doesn't seem that good to me, i see that if you have it resolved it will be much easier to win Creature matchups, but i rather have the manadenial plan.
Cheers,

[Dice_Box]

If your going to run Choke, run two. It is such a strong card you want to:
A) Have a higher chance of drawing it.
B) Have an extra if you lose it to Counterspells, Gamble or removal.
C) Be able to lose one to Loam and still have one live in your deck.

[Rivfader]

Hi thanks for all the responses. So what i get from this is the matchup is quite hard. To improve two matchups in one smash. i'll add 1-2 chokes in my sideboard.
I was thinking about assault but it doesn't seem that good to me, i see that if you have it resolved it will be much easier to win Creature matchups, but i rather have the manadenial plan.
Cheers,

It an oke matchup with all their nonbasics and burnable creatures, especially game 1 and if you have an accelerated loamengine going, which makes you draw into wastelands and Punishing Fires quickly. It's harder without exploration though. Game 2 and 3 are harder because of RIP and Meddling Mage, but I think Choke is a must-answer card for them as well.

About Seismic Assault, it adds a totally different angle to the deck, in just 2 sideboarded cards. The 20/20 flyer can be stopped by a common card like pithing needle or an extraction or an ensnaring bridge or a mom protecting Serra Avenger... Having a alternative approach in just two sideboarded cards, acting both as creaturecontrol besides Punishing Fire and a killcondition besides Depths/Stage makes the deck less vulnerable. Assembling triple red is very manageable when your dredging for red sources (1 fetch gets you both Taigas), while you're filling your hand with fodder or increasing gamble chances.

[DML]

If your going to run Choke, run two. It is such a strong card you want to:
A) Have a higher chance of drawing it.
B) Have an extra if you lose it to Counterspells, Gamble or removal.
C) Be able to lose one to Loam and still have one live in your deck.

Hi Dice,

Would it be possible to run both? I myself think i only have two slots in my sideboard to give up on.
Could you guys please post some of your sideboards ,
My current sideboard is this :
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Depths
4 Krosan Grip
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Primeval Titan
1 Chalice of the Void

[Rivfader]

Usually sideboards consist of a core of 4 spheres, 2 thorns, a chalice, 4 KGrips and a Karakas (or a Bojuka Bog, depending what's maindecked). The fourth Depths, Needle and Primetime are fine choices, but these cards often differ if you look at different builds and could be other cards.

The sphere-effects go very well along with the manadenial against combo, while you attempt to combo first. This works against most combodecks, even against Omnitell to a certain degree, but it's way less efficient against Miracles. And since Miracles is the deck to beat, it's likely that the sideboard (or perhaps the maindeck) needs adjustment. Choke and Pithing Needle are probably the strongest cards versus Miracles, but every card you cut for them will make you weaker versus other matchups, especially against storm (as 7 sideboard cards - spheres/chalice - are really dedicated versus the matchup, whereas choke and needle don't do too much).

So how to board for a Omnitell / Miracles heavy meta. GP Kyoto was very Miracles/Omnitell heavy, and many Japanese Landsplayers splashed black for a (or some) Slaughtergames. Running Boseiju in the main is an idea (not sure if it's a good one though), there was also a SCGtop8list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9379&d=253785&f=LE) running a single maindeck Needle you could gamble for. Door played maindeck Worm Harvest to pressure a preboard countertoplock. I splash black for 2 maindeck Abrupt Decay's these days. But perhaps Miracles just is a (slightly?) unfavorable matchup, which can't be solved without diluting the decks gameplan versus other matchups too much.
Against (nonblack) Omnitell, Iona is in my opinion a sweet gambletarget to side in, but sideboardspace is already tight and it's probably too narrow to warrant an inclusion. I haven't set on a sideboard I like versus the Omni/Miracles meta yet.

[lavafrogg]

Do you guys think this is a good deck to trade blue staples to build? And by that I mean get the tabernacle? I am looking to trade away my blue as I haven't sleeved them up in years and am trying to decide between this and imperial painter.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I'd make sure you are really someone who likes the play-style of lands. It's definitely not for everybody but those of us who love it really love it.

I'd personally never choose to play painter over it but I imagine you'd get the exact opposite response in the painter thread.

[Dice_Box]

I'd make sure you are really someone who likes the play-style of lands. It's definitely not for everybody but those of us who love it really love it.

I'd personally never choose to play painter over it but I imagine you'd get the exact opposite response in the painter thread.

Painter is a good lot of fun. I love them both to death. (Points for guessing the deck I play more though)

If you have to pick the age old is always true, Proxy first decide second. Both decks are things you are not able to cash out of with ease. Few cards shift around into other decks so really you should test them both and then decide.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Painter is a good lot of fun. I love them both to death. (Points for guessing the deck I play more though)

If you have to pick the age old is always true, Proxy first decide second. Both decks are things you are not able to cash out of with ease. Few cards shift around into other decks so really you should test them both and then decide.I've had painter together on MODO before and it's definitely enjoyable. So many people screwed up against grindstone. That was probably my favorite part haha.

[lavafrogg]

Life from the Loam is my favorite card in the world, which is why I think I am going to make the switch. Is the RG version the most fun?

[door]

Life from the Loam is my favorite card in the world, which is why I think I am going to make the switch. Is the RG version the most fun?

If you're going to sell tropical islands for that, I'd recommend to leave them though. This way you will have an option to splash blue or run the full classic RUG version. I'd say it is more fun than the RG version, but more slow and complex to pilot.

[Chatto]

Never played RUG Lands, but to me RG looks/ feels/ plays more straightforward.

Btw; I would never sell anything, unless absolutely neccesary or redundant. Keep your Blue staples, they can come in handy.

[lavafrogg]

Boom, I have everytging except the tabernacle. If I like the deck I will buy the big card. Super excited!

[lavafrogg]

Would any planes walkers fit in the sideboard as alternate non-graveyard win conditions?

Koth would do great things under a blood moon and many token producing planes walkers would love to sit behind maze of ith and tabernacle and tick towards their ultimate.

[Dice_Box]

The thing is, once you say "No graveyard" your limiting what lands you realistically have access too and the number you can access. Your unlikely to have a Tabernacle, multiple Maze and the Land needed to cast a 4 mana spell all at once without Loam. I just realistically can not see this deck protection a walker against something like DnT with RIP in play. I think other options like Titan, Titania or Assault are better options over any walker.

[barcode]

I have been extremely happy with Primeval Titan as a non-graveyard plan B.

Fun Primeval Titan story time:

A Reanimator player Thoughtseized a Titan early in game three. I begin the mana denial plan and he eventually cobbles together a basic swamp and Thoughtseizes himself discarding Empyrial Archangel. Next turn he plays Lotus Petal and Exhume. Well, now it's time to go nuts. I fish up two parts of my combo and then my Titan attack into his 5/8 and fish up Glacial Chasm (sac Bojuka Bog) and Tabernacle.

(I bring in Primeval Titan to hedge against Show & Tell since he should know about Bojuka Bog.)

[Dice_Box]

So at the end of the day we will have a Mirror on camera for the Primer. A good day.

Also this is the Table one match... A Mirror at Table one.

[Chatto]

I have been extremely happy with Primeval Titan as a non-graveyard plan B.

Fun Primeval Titan story time:

A Reanimator player Thoughtseized a Titan early in game three. I begin the mana denial plan and he eventually cobbles together a basic swamp and Thoughtseizes himself discarding Empyrial Archangel. Next turn he plays Lotus Petal and Exhume. Well, now it's time to go nuts. I fish up two parts of my combo and then my Titan attack into his 5/8 and fish up Glacial Chasm (sac Bojuka Bog) and Tabernacle.

(I bring in Primeval Titan to hedge against Show & Tell since he should know about Bojuka Bog.)

He played Exhume after Thoughtseizing Prime Time... Say again??? LOL


So at the end of the day we will have a Mirror on camera for the Primer. A good day.

Also this is the Table one match... A Mirror at Table one.

RG Lands is a true established deck, and in the hands of as skilled player it can beat (almost) everything: table one is the only table for this featured MU :smile:

[Rivfader]

David Long just presented a Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/lands_with_david_long.html), some pretty interesting choices, Boseiju for Miracles and Emrakul for Show and Tell. I do wonder though about Emrakul, better than Iona (like vs Omnitell)?

[lavafrogg]

Emrakul is also for the painter matchup. Show and tell is more of a bonus as a 1 of.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Emmy seems weird, if you have a sphere, then it's great as they are going to have to pass if they cast s&t but I only imagine that is going to work maybe once

[Chatto]

He specifically stated that Emmy is for the Painter-MU, which makes sense. Against SnT or Omnitell it looks like a long shot.

I like the Boseiju, and it is relatively easy to get in play, and it really gives Sphere this extra value. I can see it work against more control-decks.

[lavafrogg]

I'm trading 3 tropicals for a tabernacle. Super excited to play the deck in its entirety.

[Dice_Box]

Will be updating the Primer during my night shift tonight. Adding an update on Boseiju, adding the primer Long did and will finish off the artifact part I was working on. If I have missed anything please let me know.

Lava, I would keep your Trops, they are useful if you ever wish to play the RUG version of this deck (Something I do from time to time and is fun) They also help with the Artifact splash build. If you can, hold off and save up for the Tab and try and keep two of your Trops, they are useful once you finish building. That said, welcome to the fold. May you verse (sorry, punish) many a Delver.

[Chatto]

What the hell happened with Tabernacle? The price went through the roof!

[Dice_Box]

What the hell happened with Tabernacle? The price went through the roof!

It's a card with limited supply in a deck that is proving to be very powerful and is gaining wide spread recognition. Since it is the bottleneck for the deck, I am unsurprised to see it pick up like this.

There is no shortage of people who wish to play this deck. I know someone who has it Proxied and brings it to modern, each week he shows me the next card he has picked up. Had an event here a fortnight ago where someone asked me if they could borrow my deck because they wanted to play it. Today we see it prove it's value again. As long as Delver runs free, we are going to be in a good place and people will be draw to us.

I mean, nothing plays quite like lands.

[Chatto]

Oh, i know that, but compared with a couple of months ago the price decided to go up with about 100%... Meaning I bought it really really cheap (figure of speech)