[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[Michael Keller]

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I. Overview and History

Magic is a complex and intricate card game that is both a fun and exciting endeavor that has endured for over twenty years. Since the game's inception, the entire evolution of the game has brought with it countless changes and interactions. As the quote above from the original gaming manual suggests, a game of Magic (used to be) predicated on selecting a color or colors and building a deck using a variety of these cards - with their colored resources - entitled, "mana." Mana is not only one of the most important aspects of Magic deck building, it can also mean the difference between winning or losing games. Years ago people cringed at the idea of a well-timed Stone Rain or Strip Mine subduing the advancement of their resources, only to fall behind and lose a game after being one or two mana short of being able to cast a key spell. Not only have cards been banned because of this, others have increased significantly in value (Wasteland, for example) because of the growing popularity of non-basic lands integrated within the framework of competitive deck building.

Things have certainly changed over the course of twenty years.

It's no secret that competitive Eternal players over the course of the last ten years familiarized themselves with one of Magic's most notorious "boogeymen," namely, the Dredge archetype. From the very beginning, Dredge as a mechanic eschewed basic interaction with an opponent to replace draws and fill the graveyard up with deadly recursive threats such as Ichorid. Spells also played a key role in the advancement of the archetype, as cards like Dread Return (also as of this writing banned in Modern) and Bridge from Below continued to escalate the raw power of the archetype, creating potent redundancy. These Dredge decks continued to play multicolored lands as a resource to augment the powerful Dredge cards with key draw spells like Careful Study and Faithless Looting. To this day, it still remains a highly effective strategy that unprepared players cannot contend with. It becomes even more difficult for inexperienced opponents based on the numerous graveyard interactions, stack-based intricacies and the non-interactive dynamic that most Dredge decks adhere to.

Placed in the hands of a talented and competent pilot, Dredge can be deadly. But what if it were possible - somehow, someway - that you could actually play a Dredge deck that interacts even less with an opponent and plays zero(!) mana?

Behold: Manaless Dredge.

Manaless Dredge is arguably the most unique anomalies to ever come out of competitive Eternal deck building. Consider this: it's a deck that aims to win games of Magic without so much as using a single land in the process. How is that even possible? This isn't what Richard Garfield and friends had in mind when they designed the game. Mana is a ubiquitous resource in Magic that you use to actually play the game, so how can you do that without so much as a single source? In 2011, we witnessed a revelation of sorts in the competitive Eternal community. While the existing of decks without mana wasn't anything really new during this time, what wound up being more relevant was the fact that a relative unknown by the name of Nicholas Rausch took his Manaless Monstrosity to the Star City Legacy Open in Cincinnati and wound up becoming a folk hero for Timmy and Johnny everywhere:

Witness the final match here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hC07RjSSas).

"When or where should I play Manaless Dredge?"

Well, the video of Rausch's win certainly got people excited to try something unique and different in Legacy - which is always fun. However, it's not always the best choice to play Manaless Dredge in certain metas unless you are an incredibly skilled pilot with the deck and thoroughly understand interactions and defense options. I get this question a lot from people, and the honest truth is there is no best time or place to play the deck unless you feel comfortable navigating with it and accept the fact that you most likely will lose a few game twos (and possibly threes) to graveyard hate. It's just the nature of the beast.

Fortunately the deck is so overly redundant and consistent that an opponent will generally have to mulligan to search for their hate because they only come in packages of two to four cards at most in Legacy. This is turn warps an opponent's options before the game even begins, as keeping a four or five card hand with a land or two and hoping for the best off the top is the only option left. Vintage, however, is a different story all together, where sideboards have seven or more cards dedicated to beefing up their chances against decks like Dredge that just roll over them.

It should also be noted there were earlier incarnations of the Manaless Dredge archetype before Rausch piloted his deck to that finish. The earliest iterations of the deck used cards like Urza's Bauble, Mishra's Bauble, Gigapede and the Chancellors to facilitate faster Dread Returns and the ability to side-step certain types of hate. Alexander Lapping was one of the first people to put the deck on the map, which can be referenced here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22094_Deck_Tech_Manaless_Dredge_With_Alexander_Lapping.html).

In the Mental Misstep era where everyone became accustomed to countering spells with a converted mana cost of one, Manaless Dredge eschewed the ability to interact and instead used the Cleanup Step to discard a card for the turn and unload a massive assault on an opponent who simply couldn't react in time - almost always usually put on the backpedal as soon as the first card hits the bin. What Rausch did was not only impressive, it was revolutionary in that he won an Open with a deck that no one had ever seen yielded before in a competitive REL event - at least not in the crude capacity that Rausch was able to do.

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=22857) you can even find an old write-up by elder Legacy statesmen Alix and Jesse Hatfield of the Manaless presence towards the end of the Mental Misstep era.


II. Reasons to Play Manaless Dredge

Manaless Dredge, unlike its mana-producing counterpart, is a deck that operates much differently and requires an intricate knowledge of stack-based interaction and situational Magic. Essentially, a Manaless pilot needs to be highly aware of what he or she is doing from start to finish. Being cognizant of the order of your graveyard and seeing plays as they unfold in front of you is incredibly important. While this may seem like a natural deterrent to playing Manaless Dredge, it can actually be quite an advantage in the hands of a skilled pilot. Being able eschew interaction with an opponent and autonomously "shadow draw" (or the virtual card advantage each dredge grants the pilot) into high-octane recursion can be quite satisfying and highly rewarding to the prepared and battle-tested.

With high reward also comes high risk, however. Understand that piloting Manaless Dredge in a field that is sure to have some sort of relevant hate cards can completely cripple the pilot and, in some cases, force an automatic concession. Cards such as Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace are devastating once resolved. Knowing this going into a tournament is key, because you could very well lose a match or two (or even a round) if these cards resolve. Still, the raw power of the deck is enough to attract people who hate dealing with conditional counter-magic or Brainstorm decks in general. Manaless Dredge has the ability to kill or cripple an opponent by the second turn - or simply the ability to overrun an opponent with a horde of zombies.

Keep in mind, that still gives the opponent a full turn and free mulligan to find an answer. If they can't, that's where Manaless truly shines. Consider in your area what hate cards are seeing play and if Manaless is a good choice for you. Constant play and success with the deck will possibly force others to tailor their sideboards to beat you. The non-interaction and constant recursion of a swarm of creatures gives an opponent a false sense of security even behind hate cards like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus, which is a very potent and psychological edge over someone who does not know how to activate their hate with proper timing.


III. Manaless Design: Base Layer

Manaless Dredge takes from its predecessor and integrates a full compliment of redundant creatures and spells to augment the existing strategy of overrunning an opponent with a horde of zombies or undead creatures. Here we'll look at what makes up the actual core of Manaless Dredge, as there are a group of invariable cards that should never change as they lay the framework for an entire deck list. These cards operate at the base layer of Manaless Dredge.

For reference, here are those cards:

Golgari Grave-Troll
• The most critical component of any Dredge variant. Serves as the largest dredging quantity and as a formidable Dread Return target.

Stinkweed Imp
• The "Robin" to Troll's "Batman," this is the second most critical component of any Dredge variant at a dredge quantity of five.

Golgari Thug
• At a dredge quantity of four, this dredger augments the aforementioned and instills redundancy in hands that require a dredger to operate.

Shambling Shell
• Manaless variants are the only ones that tend to run this dredger, as you cannot really afford to mulligan and require a dredger to kick-start the engine. This is also one of the most misunderstood creatures in the entire deck, in that it serves multiple functions: it dredges for a slightly below average number of three, stacks on top of Nether Shadow and feeds Ichorid. There are even times when this will be your only dredger in your opening hand, making you feel somewhat fortunate to start the process of dredging hard.

Bridge from Below
• As with any Dredge variant, Bridge is the backbone of the deck that allows you to generate zombies and overrun an opponent. While also enabling Dread Return faster, it requires a great deal of thought and understanding of the stack to get full value when creatures die simultaneously.

Cabal Therapy
• A "free" discard spell that can cripple an opponent's hand, especially in multiples. You can also fire this off on yourself to discard or to create zombies in the process, which can mean the difference between winning and losing games.

Ichorid
• The ultimate recursive threat. At the cost of eating a black creature a turn, this Lightning-Bolt-on-legs has a built in sacrifice outlet and cannot be Abrupt Decayed. The massive black-creature count in this deck augments the ability for this creature to come back - often times in multiples - and overrun an opponent with a constant source of damage.

Narcomoeba
• A "free" flyer that enables Dread Return or Cabal Therapy for multiple zombies. It can also serve as a blocker in a pinch and creates complex blocking situations with Bridge. If you manage to have a Street Wraith in your hand, you can also dredge and trigger this creature at instant speed to screw an opponent's impending attack decision over.

This core group of cards makes up the foundation for which any Dredge list exists. Without them, there would be no Dredge, let alone a Manaless variation. We need these cards - in quantities of three or four, no less - as redundant and powerful functional pieces to make this deck work. Their applicability at this point should be self-explanatory. However, mastering their interoperability and interaction with other cards in the deck is what makes this a complex and gutsy decision decision to run in any tournament.

What do I mean by "gutsy"? Well, we'll get to that later. For now, let's look at the combo layer of Manaless Dredge and see how it operates with the core components.


IV. Manaless Design: Combo Layer

In order for Manaless Dredge to win games more quickly without any lands, the deck utilizes cards that serve to augment the existing core group of cards by enabling the pilot the option to combo out quickly and win games faster. This not only disrupts the opponent's ability to find graveyard hate in an expeditious amount of time, but it also gives the pilot the ability to beat other combo decks just as fast (if not, faster). These cards operate at the combo layer, or the layer in which Manaless Dredge operates to finish a game quickly by using an assemblage of specific cards. One could argue that the base layer of cards is interchangeable with the combo layer of Manaless, which is absolutely true. This is a tremendous advantage of built-in synergy that a good portion of other combo decks tend to lack.

There are several cards that do this, so we'll take a look at those right now.

Nether Shadow

A card as old as the game itself, Nether Shadow was clearly far ahead of its time given its unusual ability to recur itself while also being the first creature in Magic to have the "haste" ability. This card is incredibly versatile and helps work at the combo layer in a variety of ways. Firstly, the ability to come back turn in and turn out is incredibly annoying for an opponent looking to constantly jam that Tarmogoyf down your throat. Secondly, it can attack the turn it enters the battlefield, so in multiples that extra damage can mean the difference between losing and winning. And third and most importantly, its ability to recur itself fuels the next card on the list which - for all intents and purposes - wins the game on the spot once resolved.

Dread Return

Not a staple of all Dredge lists, Manaless Dredge indefinitely incorporates Dread Return as a primary engine to fuel zombie tokens via Bridge from Below, in addition to reanimating a massive (and likely) utility creature to grind through your entire deck and win the game. One of the more popular kill methods incorporates Dread Returning a creature that draws an enormous amount of cards (like Griselbrand or Whirlpool Rider), dumping your deck, bringing back Flayer of the Hatebound and subsequently a Golgari Grave-Troll for an arbitrary amount of damage.

Unlike its counterpart, Manaless Dredge requires the use of Dread Return as a primary kill method (outside of attacking with zombies) due to the loss of draw spells and mana resources to fuel those draw spells. In order to Manaless to close games out quickly, one must turn to Dread Return as a powerful alternative method to winning games.

Phantasmagorian

Most people still have no idea how this card works, but those same people tend to have an understand how the stack works in general. The moment that Nick Rausch used this card to level up his graveyard on an opponent, flabbergasted masses looked in awe as a once-maligned uncommon became the most critical backbone for this entire archetype. The unparalleled ability to dump your hand without interaction is unprecedented with this card. How it works is rather simple, in that you dump three cards into the graveyard by activating its secondary ability. Once you do this, you're either passing or retaining priority. If you choose to retain, you give yourself a chance to discard three more cards into the graveyard. At this point, you'd pass priority back to an opponent and begin the process of bringing back your threats.

Phantasmagorian has a very unique ability that at first glance makes little sense to activate, as keeping cards in your hand is generally a productive way to win games. However, in a Dredge deck that uses no lands and gravitates to discarding down to seven cards at the end of your turn, this card allows you to accelerate into wins by discarding your hand and overrunning an opponent the following turn.

Combo Creatures

There are a variety of creatures a Manaless pilot can use to finish games off with. Here is a sample size of some of the more notorious creatures that do the trick:

Flame-Kin Zealot
Griselbrand
Balustrade Spy
Whirlpool Rider
Angel of Despair
Sun Titan
River Kelpie
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Flayer of the Hatebound
Eternal Witness
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Inkwell Leviathan
Woodfall Primus
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Ancestor's Chosen
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Terastodon
Stalking Vengeance
Sadistic Hypnotist
Chancellor of the Annex
Realm Razer

As you can see, each of these cards has a built-in utility that generally wins games on the spot. Some aren't as game-breaking as others, but most are suitable choices. Each of these creatures serves its own purpose in a Manaless deck. Recently, however, Manaless has typically gone the route of Flayer of the Hatebound to finish games off in conjunction with a huge Golgari Grave-Troll.


V. Current Deck List

As of 25MAR2015, this is my current Manaless deck list:

Manaless Dredge

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Gitaxian Probe
[3x] Force of Will
[3x] Shambling Shell
[3x] Whirlpool Rider
[2x] Chancellor of the Annex
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Disrupting Shoal
[3x] Contagion
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Ashen Rider
[2x] Mindbreak Trap
[1x] Force of Will


VI. Alternate Card Selections

Serum Powder

Serum Powder is a card that has a very unique effect. The ability to completely exile your opening hand and draw a new set of the same number of cards can be critical. Consider that when you do this, you're drastically increasing the percentages in which you'll draw the desired card(s) you wish to start the game off with. Notably, this is used to find Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian to accelerate into a faster win. It can create some awkward situations where you open with one and have the cards you need already, but I believe the reward outweighs the risk with the card as the deck is already so redundant as it is that being able to attempt to start the game off faster could mean the difference between winning and losing.

Because you're not losing a card when performing this action, it makes for an attractive pregame utility effect.

Force of Will

Manaless by its very nature is a deck that operates on the strength of its opening draws and subsequently its dredges. Because of this, it also can be forced to sit on its opening hand and hope for the best. This is especially scary against decks that are a turn faster than it, notably, Storm and fast combo. Force of Will is the definitive free counter, so being able to stop fast combo in its tracks or counter an impending piece of hate can be incredibly important.

Of course, it is an expensive card, so the cost barrier of obtaining a set of Forces can be prohibitive. Still, if you're looking for an answer to hate before it resolves or the ability to fight off the storm, this is your best option.

Disrupting Shoal

Like its Alliances counterpart, Disrupting Shoal is a free counter that is a bit more conditional. Though most blue cards in a Manaless variant have a converted mana cost of two, the attractiveness of being able to counter key cards like Rest in Peace is very important and augments the Forces as your primary defense mechanisms in stopping hate before it resolves.

Dryad Arbor

Green variants of Manaless tend to run a full compliment of these as a means to accelerate into Dread Returns faster and augment the sideboard strategy with green anti-hate cards such as Reverent Silence and Nature's Claim. It also stacks above the Nether Shadow and allows for its recursion. One of the better utility creatures in Manaless.

Shifting Wall + Phyrexian Marauder

These are two very unique creatures in Magic that serve a very special purpose in faster versions of Manaless Dredge. Here's how they work: You start the game off with a dredge or a Phantasmagorian that dumps some Bridges into the graveyard. You may then play these creatures for free, at X=0. When this happens, they immediately die and thus give you zombies from your Bridge(s). Here are the other added benefits of these two creatures:

• Built-in sacrifice outlet.
• Stacks on top of Shadows.
• Makes up to four zombies for zero mana.
• Cannot be Spell Pierced or Flusterstormed.
• Can make multiple tokens under Cage.
• Free to cast around Thalia.
• Facilitates more tokens when Dread Returned.

As you can see, two highly versatile creatures that serve a very distinct purpose in this deck. They do rely a bit heavier on Bridge from Below, but at worst, still stack on top of Shadow for recursion.

Mishra's Bauble + Urza's Bauble

The Baubles used to see more play in earlier incarnations of Manaless as previously mentioned, but not as much play these days. While still effective for what they do, the Baubles have tremendous synergy in protecting the deck from hate cards like Relic of Progenitus so you can exile the Bauble to protect your dredger, and in turn replace itself with a draw or dredge. The information can at times be invaluable, as sometimes activating an Urza's Bauble turns on Cabal Therapy.

Blightsteel Colossus, Serra Avatar, Progenitus

This card and its replacement-effect brethren have some application with Balustrade Spy in preventing the potential for decking yourself, and in some instances have application against Show and Tell and Painter's Servant builds. Middle of the road choice for folks wishing to protect their investment with Spy.


VII. Primary and Alternate Kill Conditions

As mentioned before, Manaless Dredge is made up of a group of core cards that build the very foundation for which the deck exists. Without them, the deck would not be able to function. One of the cards that provides Manaless the tremendous boost it needs is Dread Return. When you resolve this card, you should win on the spot - or at least put yourself in a winning position. It's so incredibly swingy with Bridge from Below that one must not underestimate its power in this archetype.

Let's look at the predominant method to winning games with Manaless Dredge in 2015.

Flayer of the Hatebound

This creature was one of the best finishers ever printed for Manaless Dredge. The synergy it has with everything else in your deck is just insane. Not only does it have "Undying," the devastating synergy it has with cards like Cabal Therapy and Dread Return make this the ultimate win condition in Manaless Dredge. However, to win the game on the spot, you generally want to Dread Return another creature in Golgari Grave-Troll. You see, when the Troll enters the battlefield, it deals an arbitrarily large amount of damage to an opponent - typically more than enough to win the game. Sometimes you can win the game in conjunction with Cabal Therapy and Flayer, as that alone takes away almost half an opponent's life total on the spot.

Sometimes, in order to maximize the graveyard, there are really two creatures that do this better than any others...


Balustrade Spy and Griselbrand

Both of these cards provide explosive enough capability to immediately win you the game on the spot. Griselbrand on its own serves as a well-enough finisher that for a 7/7 lifelinking flyer, that can be all you need. But if you pay seven life, you will likely flip your deck and win the game.

Balustrade Spy, however, allows you to essentially flip your deck on the spot with no life investment and acts as a more "all-in" card than its counterpart. This opens the deck up to more vulnerability to Surgical Extraction, which can stop you from winning that turn. If you don't have something that replaces itself once dredged like Blightsteel Colossus or Serra Avatar, you could wind up losing on the spot. Still, the ability to flip your deck unimpeded is extremely powerful and realistically what this deck is trying to do to begin with.

Neat Trick: If a Surgical does put you in a position where you need to pass the turn without being able to kill an opponent and you risk being decked the following turn, you can always Dread Return a Golgari Thug, flashback Therapy and trigger the Thug to put a creature on top of your deck. This will enable a massive assault the following turn and likely the win.


VIII. Predominant Sideboard Construction Packages

Because Manaless Dredge is often referred to as a combo deck (which it rightfully is), Dread Return is a key component in facilitating fast wins out of nowhere. There have been a variety of packages over the years that all have a common goal in mind: to win the game either immediately or to incapacitate and overwhelm an opponent so much that they have no way of recovering from an impending next-turn defeat.



The Green Package

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For all of Manaless Dredge's strengths, the deck certainly has some glaring weaknesses. To address the elephant in the room: this deck effectively loses to a Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace or any other permanent-based hate that goes unanswered. When I originally piloted this deck, I wanted ways to not only facilitate faster Dread Returns but ways to fight resolved hate out of the sideboard. This was more of a proactive way of fighting hate, which worked at the time. With Dryad Arbors in the main, the sideboard was able to be freed up with design space used for cards that just destroyed the aforementioned hate cards.

The problem with this side-boarding strategy is that the hate has to resolve first, which means you need to have a way to destroy it or lose. Lands out of the sideboard help in conjunction with the Arbors to cast these anti-hate cards. Some people don't think that it's worth it, as this particular sideboard has a tendency to dilute the main-deck and offers little synergy with other cards in the graveyard aside from Dryad Arbor(s). The anti-hate package is also slightly more conditional, as it requires sometimes waiting a full turn for Dryad Arbor to become active in order to cast a Nature's Claim.

Not really the ideal sideboard these days in a Cage and Peace-heavy meta, but certainly not the worst option in the world.



The Blue Package

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After a long hiatus with the deck and some chatter going on in the prior Manaless thread, it was becoming more and more recognizable that the only way to truly stop hate from resolving was to counter it first. Cards like Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal provide free answers to Rest in Peace and Grafdigger's Cage, which are both game-breaking spells against us. Typically, a mulligan occurs by the opponent to find either of these cards to try and win on the spot. Going down a card or two by them usually helps us immensely.

Whirlpool Rider was another fantastic addition to the archetype as it conveniently has a converted mana cost of two - perfect for Disrupting Shoal in countering Rest in Peace (arguably the most popular sideboard hate these days). The great thing about the counter package in stopping Rest in Peace is that you get to discard first before going with the counter to stop it from resolving, and even in the instance you only have a Narcomoeba or Rider in your hand to start the game off with, you do have Street Wraith which enables you to freely cycle into either counter and stop the hate from resolving.

Once this occurs, you can begin the process of allowing your dredge cards to fill the graveyard up and destroy an opponent. The wider application of the blue counter package is what makes it the most attractive anti-hate package in Manaless Dredge these days, as the ability to stop fast combo is absolutely critical. You could also consider Mindbreak Trap in the side if there's plenty of Storm in your meta.

There are plenty of other options to consider when opting to go with an alternate sideboard in Manaless Dredge. Most of these options include various utility creatures and spells like Ashen Rider, Contagion, Sickening Shoal, etc. These cards serve a great purpose, and if you're looking for more utility-based action out of the board, those cards and cards like them will be good for you.


IX. Sequencing

Sequencing in Manaless Dredge is absolutely pivotal, as there are multiple interactions that can occur over the course of a single turn. Instead of casting Brainstorm at the end of an opponent's turn, this deck oftentimes opts to activate one of two primary cards to facilitate faster kills: Street Wraith and or Phantasmagorian. This creates a situation where you typically win or completely take the game over the following turn.

Let’s shift gears now to some in-game analysis of Manaless Dredge and how the deck works. Let’s assume we’re running against BUG with Deathrite Shamans at the ready. We’ve won the roll, and obviously elected to draw first. Our opponent has been tipped off and mulligans his first hand.

We then take a look at our seven, and here’s how it shapes up:

Stinkweed Imp, Phantasmagorian, Contagion, Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell, Dread Return, and Flayer of the Hatebound

Nothing too out of the ordinary here: just a few dredgers and a Contagion, perfect for the possible hate-bear. Our opponent decided to keep their six cards, and the game begins with a fetch retrieving a Bayou. The Bayou is tapped and a Deathrite Shaman hits the board. Our opponent is now down to four cards in their hand, likely another land and some sort of useless removal, leaving two likely unknowns. (Note our opponent fetched up a Bayou and not an Underground Sea. This definitely tips us off to a hand without Daze; they needed to drop that Shaman immediately.) Keeping this in mind, we take our turn and draw a card which happens to be another Nether Shadow.

And so the question beckons: Do we remove the Shaman now or wait to discard a Phantasmagorian and do it once they activate it?

We can look at this in one of two ways. If our opponent is hell-bent on removing that Phantasmagorian or whatever we discard to it, it won’t make much difference if our graveyard is filled up. On the other hand, we can discard that Phantasmagorian and then during our opponent’s upkeep we can kill it. In this instance, we have now just put ourselves in a much better situation by being able to discard our goodies and killing the critter before he does anything relevant.

So we take the latter line of play and discard Phantasmagorian. Then during our opponent’s upkeep, we pitch a Nether Shadow (remember, we have one in our hand and we have to ensure that our dredging will continue through Shell in the event we whiff on Imp). We Contagion-out the dude, and he opts not to use the Shaman.

Smart play. You see, our opponent knew that by tapping their green source they would be simply robbing themselves of playing something relevant on their turn two because they knew we would be filling up our yard and returning the savage discarding monster to our hand. It would be pointless, basically. After doing nothing relevant, our opponent passes and we clean up in a turn or two.

The point of this example is to illustrate the difference between good and bad play. We can’t always assume our opponents are dumb people, but smart and with a good mind for what they want to do. If something like this catches you off guard, then you’re not thinking ahead clearly. You need to be able to anticipate your opponents’ plays, including them reacting to your own, and understand how these plays can come back to haunt you at a certain point in a game.

Let's look at another scenario:

Our next example will look at a game three against Storm. We’ve won game one on the heels of some massive discard and just lost game two by getting gold-fished turn one without any help. Game three begins and we draw our seven cards:

Chancellor of the Annex, Street Wraith, Golgari Thug, Mindbreak Trap, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy, and Ichorid

We like it, and it has a nice touch with Cabal Therapy and Ichorid to supplement the hate we have. Scarily enough, our opponent snap-keeps their hand. However, little do they know we run Chancellor of the Annex. You see, we run it out of the board and our opponent got no information game two by killing us turn one. This could set them back in the event they’re unprepared for it.

We start the game off by revealing a Chancellor, to which our opponent tanks for a minute as we’ve just changed the entire dynamic of the game. They think for a second and make a play, a Gemstone Mine to pay for a Lotus Petal. They pay the mana to resolve it and pass the turn.

We draw our card for the turn and it’s a good one: Street Wraith. We proceed to the end of our turn and discard a Phantasmagorian. Our opponent takes their turn, draws and plays a fetch. They then Ponder (one spell) off the Mine. They keep the card and drop a fetch, only to crack it and look for an Underground Sea.

Now remember this is a huge tip-off here. Our opponent kept their card and shuffled away the rest, which means it has got to be something good. Our opponent then casts a Lotus Petal (two spells) and declares, “Storm is two.” They then cast a Dark Ritual (three spells – mental fist-pump). Storm is now irrelevant in our minds, as we can Trap them out, which we do once the Petal cracks for red mana into Rite of Flame and Ad Nauseam is hard-cast. Once we blow-out our opponent, we then proceed to go bonkers with our cards the following turn.

We’ve got to be wondering if our opponent found that crucial acceleration spell or Ad Nauseam on the top of their deck, which they probably did. But that’s what the deck does sometimes; they know we don’t run any counter-magic and just decided to win the game right then and there. Fortunately, there’s more to it than this.

Our opponent defeated us so quickly in game two that they weren’t able to conclusively determine what we were sideboarding into for game three. The idea here is to take full advantage of our available resources to shore this match up by having redundancy in our boards to stop them from killing us quickly. Would a Silence have ensured our deaths? It’s hard to say. We forced our opponent to tap their mana on turn one to play a spell they probably weren’t intending on paying mana for, which changed slightly the way the game played out. Which might not have mattered in the overall scheme of things, we had the answers.

This is why Chancellor alone might not be worth it in this match-up. The Storm player can afford to pay a mana for their cards like Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal and Gitaxian Probe, but when they do and pass the turn you’re still discarding and waiting the next turn to try and kill them (or rip their hand apart). With Trap you can just wreck them with nothing else to worry about.

There really is no contest between Force Spike and a big Mind Twist in this match-up, which for all intents and purposes is what Chancellor and Mindbreak Trap represent here. With Trap you’re depleting an opponent of their Storm buildup and knocking out their key spells when they’re cast. That’s huge and something that simply cannot be ignored. While not nearly close to being identical in nature, dredging a Golgari Grave-Troll for free or cycling a Street Wraith with a dredger in the graveyard feels like a de facto Contract from Below in that your graveyard acts like a virtual "hand" that you play with throughout the game. (I also always thought it was interesting correlating big dredges to Contract from Below, which in name is eerily similar to Bridge from Below.)

"Holding priority..."

A key phrase in Manaless Dredge if there ever was one, holding priority with Phantasmagorian can mean the difference between winning and losing. Let's say you discard three cards to Phantasmagorian and only one of them is a dredger (say, Stinkweed Imp). The other four cards in your hand include three blue cards with a counter, with the last card being Street Wraith. In this instance, because you discarded those three cards, you are essentially going all-in on Stinkweed Imp getting you another dredger in the process. Now, while deck construction and situational awareness of what you have in your hand may dictate what you mathematically think will come of those five cards, there's no way of knowing with 100% certainty if that's going to be the case.

In that instance, you should likely do the following: Upon activating Phantasmagorian, you hold priority and cycle Street Wraith. This will not only dredge you five cards deeper to setup the following turn, it will allow you to discard the dredger back into your graveyard because the Phantasmagorian's activated ability hasn't finished resolving. It may be at the cost of discarding a key card(s), but the benefit of having 100% certainty that a dredger will remain in your graveyard for the following turn is paramount.

Otherwise, you're risking what amounts to a virtual Time Walk times four that could prove ultimately fatal.

To sum things up: there are important intricacies and dynamics involved with Manaless Dredge, most of which opponents don't understand because you're working with no mana and putting things on the stack that require attention to detail by both parties. This is incredibly deceptive and the reason this deck has adopted cards like Force of Will, Disrupting Shoal and Mindbreak Trap to fight back against faster decks and graveyard hate. Sometimes, discarding a dredger and playing the role of defender for a turn or two can work, because you're not investing mana or resources into filling up your graveyard for free.


X. Cabal Therapy: Effect Optimization

My experience with Cabal Therapy is something that even I up until recently didn’t stop to think about as it pertains to my history of deck choices over the years. I would estimate that since its printing I’ve played Cabal Therapy in close to 85 to 90 percent of the decks I’ve built. A big reason for this is my love for the color black in Eternal Magic. I don’t know why, but it’s really been a ‘fatal attraction’ of sorts for me since I started playing a long time ago. By this I mean my sentimental attraction to the color made it predictable for opponents to put me on something with black before a game even began.

That evolution wound up benefiting and strengthening my play over the course of many years, which it certainly can do for you too, if you so choose to harness it. Cabal Therapy in that respect deserves a great deal of attention and dedication as a card that can be extraordinarily powerful if the pilot utilizing it maximizes its potential. I first noticed its power in a deck I used to pilot entitled, “The Game.” In that particular deck the card Cabal Therapy in conjunction with Gamekeeper was able to milk removal out of opponents’ hands and subsequently acted as a de facto sacrifice outlet that would allow the pilot to chain Therapies and Gamekeepers until they hit a behemoth, such as the now-antiquated Darksteel Colossus.

With that being said, let’s take a look at one of the most misunderstood, misplayed and commonly used discard spells in the history of the game.

Cabal Therapy

So for a single black mana, a player can cast Cabal Therapy and target any player they so choose, including themselves. This strategy can be important when the pilot needs to put something relevant into the graveyard, such as in Dredge or some form of unusual Reanimator. The flexibility it provides is massive in that respect and makes for a nice combo application outside of the typical “make you discard cards” routine.

However, what makes Cabal Therapy truly powerful is its ability to strip multiple copies of important cards out of an opponent’s hand. It’s important to note that you do not name a card when you play Cabal Therapy, but rather upon its resolution. What that means is once you play Cabal Therapy, you need to pass priority to your opponent to see if it resolves. If (and potentially when) it does, you then name a card. At that point, an opponent will reveal their hand and you will see the results of your intuitive assessment.

Hopefully, it was worth the effort.

Cabal Therapy is simply a card that screams card advantage. As if it weren’t enough to strip multiple copies of a single card out of an opponent’s hand, you can then subsequently flash it back at the “cost” of sacrificing a creature. In some instances the pilot will use that as an advantage, such as the aforementioned example with Gamekeeper or in more recent times with cards like Veteran Explorer, Bloodghast and Gravecrawler. It’s important to recognize that anyone deciding to build a deck with Cabal Therapy can take advantage of this and generate even more of an advantage.

Sometimes a single Cabal Therapy is enough to wipe out all of the relevant cards in a player’s hand. That feature alone should sell folks on how powerful its utility can be.

Now that we know exactly what Cabal Therapy does, it’s important to recognize how to play the card correctly. I want people to understand again that it takes a tremendous amount of intuitive skill to play this card. Therapy is a high risk, high reward spell. I’d equate its play much like a professional poker player would read a ‘tell’ or what cards another player might have in their hand depending on their betting style. A player can bluff the Therapy pilot out by leaving an Island up and representing Brainstorm. In Magic, this would be referred to as “next leveling,” which means that another player anticipates the outcome of a specific line of play and traps an opponent down the line by ‘one-upping’ them with either a trump or something else completely unexpected that crushes the predictability of said line.

Understanding the fundamentals associated with the card is what makes it so difficult to play correctly. That being said, let's check out a great example of maximizing Cabal Therapy in Manaless Dredge.

Also take into account that this exercise refers to blind Therapies only, as it’s quite obvious that flashing the card back will almost assuredly grab a card or set of cards that you want to strip from a player’s hand.


Manaless Dredge versus High Tide – October 20th, 2012 [NELC]

In game one against a High Tide player, I managed to put myself in a position where I could flash back Cabal Therapy. With an Ichorid in play, I sent the undead Horror in for three damage and subsequently flashed back Cabal Therapy targeting him, making a few Zombies in the process from Bridge from Below(s) in my graveyard. He has one Island in play and not much else going on. In response to my Therapy, he casts a Brainstorm, looking to hide cards on top of his deck.

Now, it’s at this point one has to wonder what card really matters here if it resolves. If my opponent is on one land, I know that for two more turns they cannot cast Cunning Wish (which gets something like Ravenous Trap or Surgical Extraction). By that time, I should have an established board presence where a spell like that doesn’t really affect me as much as it would on turn one or two. After all, Ichorids and Nether Shadows are going to be coming after him next turn in addition to multiple Zombies. I want to strip him of his ability to win outright in a desperate attempt.

So I rule out Wish.

Cunning Wish.

From here, I look at several other options. Counter-magic doesn’t really concern me unless I want to play out Dread Return, which I have neither that nor a realistically lethal target in my graveyard at this time. Because I know that this line of play is dependent on my next turn’s dredging, I have to play with exactly what I have on the board.

So Force of Will is relatively useless in a scenario with no interaction.

Force of Will.

Finally I think to myself, “Did this guy think I would go after High Tide? And if so, is he trying to next-level me?” After careful consideration, I realize that my opponent has approximately two turns to live if the game progresses at its current pace. We’re both playing combo decks in their own right, and I know he wants to finish me off before my onslaught of attackers can push in for lethal. Did he hide High Tide on top of his deck, or did he just assume I would go after Wish because he gave me the benefit of the doubt based on my familiarity with targets in his sideboard that could wipe me out?

I had to try for it. It’s the only card at this point that can enable him to win the game, and nothing else really matters to me. Draw spells, counter-magic and all of the cool tap/untap effects he could muster mean nothing to me while he’s on one land. Flusterstorm maybe, but he let this resolve and that tells me something: he’s got something good in his hand.

I have about ten to twelve more cards that will hit my graveyard in two turns, and they are potentially all crushing to him: more Therapies, Dread Returns and targets.

I go in for the home run, naming “High Tide.”

I hit one.

I see his hand and after him being on the play he has five cards left in his hand at this point. His five cards were (based on memory): Force of Will, Turnabout, Island, Meditate and something like a Preordain. He told me he played under the assumption I would have named “Cunning Wish” because of the potential threat of sideboard hate making an appearance game one. I let him know at this point he needs two more lands in play, and even if he does he’ll be staring down a horde of attackers that remain on the battlefield and that I could care less about Cunning Wish.

He shrugs and admits that he has nothing left on top of his deck. Even after he casts Preordain, it doesn’t matter. I find a Dread Return, Therapy and a Griselbrand the following dredge (wow) and put an end to any doubt by stripping his Force from hand and bringing back and activating the flying demon for the win.

This example was meant to illustrate the importance of associating the value of a specific target against a specific deck at a specific point in the game. On turn one, a High Tide player is working with Brainstorms and counter-magic, really. If I was losing that game, I was losing it on turn three if this guy attempted going off, and quite honestly I wasn’t taking that risk. Assuming I didn’t hit more Therapies I would have let him strip my graveyard, wasting a turn doing so, while attacking him and gaining an arbitrary amount of tokens that stay on the battlefield.

My thinking was that my opponent was trying to bait me into flushing another target out of his hand, but I knew that on turn one with damage coming in and more Zombies hitting play that the only card I care about was High Tide. I want to win the game faster and I’m not taking any chances. Every land a High Tide player taps for something other than an initial High Tide, to me, is a wasted mana source without an untap effect at the ready.

On turn one I was going for the big hurt and my intuition countered his line of play without having to play a single spell for verification. I took his key spell and he lost the game. Whether it was on the heels of poor hiding or whatever, he made a choice and I made him pay for it. Now unfortunately, you can’t be Superman and always know every single card there is to know in an opponent’s hand at a given time. Thankfully, we have cards that can do that for us.


I think Cabal Therapy requires a great deal of knowledge about Legacy in order to be effective. If you know what cards in specific match-ups cause you problems, write them down on a piece of paper. For instance, let’s say you’re playing Nic Fit and you know you really don’t want to walk your Green Sun’s Zenith into a Force of Will or Spell Pierce against a control deck. If your opponent taps out to play something, that should telegraph they are probably on a Force or two in their hand because they are comfortable tapping their mana in the face of something dangerous.

You need to protect your investments and make your spells count is where I’m going with this. Which brings me to my next point: the turn one blind Therapy.

A turn one blind Cabal Therapy is one of the most dangerous lines of play in all of Legacy. If you have absolutely no idea what your opponent is playing, it’s probably a good idea to wait a turn to see what they’re playing so you can play accordingly and take an educated guess as to what that player has in his or her hand. Casting this card on turn one also sends up red flags to an opponent to physically protect his or her hand.

For instance, at a tournament in Maryland one time I played against an opponent running a variant of Stone-Blade. I was on the LED Dredge plan at the time and this was a pivotal game two where I could close the deal out. I tapped a City of Brass on turn two and cast a Therapy, earning a Brainstorm in response. He put his cards back and said, “Sure.”

I knew if this guy had Surgical Extraction, this was when it was being played everywhere with Snapcaster Mage he would have hid the card on top of his deck. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and proceeded to call “Snapcaster Mage.”

I knocked three… that’s right, three out of his hand. I never heard the end of it. But I made sure I named the card that would give him the most value with his Extractions. Needless to say I never found out what he hid as he picked up his cards and scooped. This after me being cordial and friendly to him and apologizing for an unfortunate turn of events. He was the one who took a gamble, it didn’t pay off.

That Therapy felt more like an Ancestral Recall than anything else due to the massive advantage I gained off a single card. If you can find a way to master the power of Cabal Therapy, then you too can in turn can win games. It’s a card that demands high reward based off these three key factors we’ve already spoken about earlier in the piece:

• Owning a working knowledge of the format you’re playing it in.
• Becoming a good situational Magic player.
• Excelling in taking advantage of the card’s alternative cost.

If you can master these aspects of Cabal Therapy, you will undoubtedly master a great dynamic of Manaless Dredge.


XI: Categorizing Hate

It's always a great feeling playing a deck you know has a tremendous chance of winning a very high percentages of its game ones. Unfortunately, with great power comes an even greater responsibility of fighting the hate cards that you can expect to come in against you. I classify these resolved hate cards into three categories: green (very beatable hate), yellow (somewhat beatable hate) and red (unbeatable hate). (I should also note that this classification is only against Manaless and not other archetypes, in addition to playing a variation not able to interact with permanent-based hate cards once they resolve.)

Green Hate
• Tormod's Crypt
• Surgical Extraction
• Faerie Macabre
• Extirpate
• Nihil Spellbomb


Yellow Hate
• Relic of Progenitus
• Bojuka Bog
• Scavenging Ooze (with active mana)


Red Hate
• Leyline of the Void
• Rest in Peace
• Grafdigger's Cage
• Planar Void

There are a variety of ways to play around and time your dredges to fight through specific types of hate, in addition to cards that allow you to fill up your graveyard faster after a piece of hate is activated. For instance, Faerie Macabre or Street Wraith give you the option to swerve around Relic of Progenitus and guarantee you will be able to start the dredging process unless they exile all graveyards.

Scavenging Ooze is also beatable, as an activation on turn two leaves the card open to Contagion before the ability resolves. However, cards like Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage ensure a loss if resolved with no way to fight it. Thankfully, a sideboard with counters or removal helps in this matter, in addition to cards like Chancellor of the Annex that delays the hate a turn so you can discard a dredger and not have to worry about waiting three or four turns to dredge again. Chancellor is also highly effective against one-mana hate cards.


XII: Manaless Video Links

SCGPHL-Legacy-Quarterfinals-Reid Duke vs Theo Van Doosselaere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m-eNd04Mks)
Legacy Champs Round 6 John Grudzina vs. Sullivan Brophy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY17ly3pl7s)
MTG: U/R Delver vs Manaless Dredge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89p62GKzoLs)
SCGCOL Deck Tech - Nick Rausch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxNvIaiN22A)
SCGLA-Legacy-Quarterfinals-John Kassari vs Michael Boland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEwnQ0Bm9-s)
SCGNJ-Legacy-Semifinals-Jake Moldowsky vs Juha Tolvanen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV26nf4yWq8)
[StarCityGames Cincinnati Legacy Open] Caleb Durward VS Nicholas Rausch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hC07RjSSas)
GPT Legacy a New Jersey (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NrqgsDqc2A)
[LEGACY] Vendredi du Biland 15/11/2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG-QG5OqccE)
GPT Legacy a New Jersey (final) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1NhJctfT54)


XIII: Manaless Article Links

My article on Manaless Dredge in Legacy (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy)
Manaless Unplugged (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52883/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-unplugged-vol-i)
Gerry T on Manaless Dredge (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25634_Traditional-And-Manaless-Dredge.html)
Channel Fireball Article on Manaless (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/combo/181899-manaless-dredge)
Wizards' Article on Who Needs Lands? (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1487)
Michael Boland's Manaless Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28175_Leaving-A-Legacy-Manaless-Dredge-At-SCGLA.html)
13th/173@BoM (~PTQ) Qualifier w/ Manaless (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27642-Report-13th-173-BoM-%28-PTQ%29-Qualifier-w-Manaless)
6th with Manaless Dredge at Jupiter Games DFD Event (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24620-Report-6th-with-Manaless-Dredge-at-Jupiter-Games-DFD-Event!)
14th w/ Manaless Dredge @ Jupiter's NELC! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24967-Report-14th-w-Manaless-Dredge-Jupiter-s-NELC!)
[Report] Return of the Living Dead: 3rd @ Jupiter Games NELC w/ Manaless Dredge! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24895-Report-Return-of-the-Living-Dead-3rd-Jupiter-Games-NELC-w-Manaless-Dredge!)
[Report] Top 8 with Manaless Dredge @ Mythic Games' LIQ! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24650-Report-Top-8-with-Manaless-Dredge-Mythic-Games-LIQ!)
GPT Report! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid&p=842332&viewfull=1#post842332)

[Michael Keller]

Reserved for match-up analysis, sideboarding strategies and future use.

[Daize]

This is great, Michael. Just a question here:


Chancellor of the Annex, Street Wraith, Golgari Thug, Mindbreak Trap, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy, and Ichorid

We like it, and it has a nice touch with Cabal Therapy and Ichorid to supplement the hate we have. Scarily enough, our opponent snap-keeps their hand. However, little do they know we run Chancellor of the Annex. You see, we run it out of the board and our opponent got no information game two by killing us turn one. This could set them back in the event they’re unprepared for it.

We start the game off by revealing a Chancellor, to which our opponent tanks for a minute as we’ve just changed the entire dynamic of the game. They think for a second and make a play, a Gemstone Mine to pay for a Gitaxian Probe. They see our hand at the cost of the mana and two life. They get the draw and pass the turn.

We draw our card for the turn and it’s a good one: Street Wraith. We proceed to the end of our turn and discard a Phantasmagorian. Our opponent takes their turn, draws and plays a fetch. They then Ponder (one spell) off the Mine. They keep the card and drop a fetch, only to crack it and look for an Underground Sea.

Now remember this is a huge tip-off here. Our opponent kept their card and shuffled away the rest, which means it has got to be something good. Our opponent then casts a Lotus Petal (two spells) and declares, “Storm is two.” They then cast a Dark Ritual (three spells – mental fist-pump). Storm is now irrelevant in our minds, as we can Trap them out, which we do once the Petal cracks for red mana into Rite of Flame and Ad Nauseam is hard-cast. Once we blow-out our opponent, we then proceed to go bonkers with our cards the following turn.
Here you talk about Probe & Trap - but he has seen your hand. Why would he just storm ahead into the Trap? How do you play around discard with Trap in your hand? I usually see it as a way to stall (even if they've seen it) so they have to wait. But I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Gui]

Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid) to previous thread, for reference.

[Michael Keller]

This is great, Michael. Just a question here:


Here you talk about Probe & Trap - but he has seen your hand. Why would he just storm ahead into the Trap? How do you play around discard with Trap in your hand? I usually see it as a way to stall (even if they've seen it) so they have to wait. But I'd love to hear your thoughts.

My thought process here is this: their hand has complete potential to immediately win the game. So, unless they have a discard spell to deal with the Trap, it's just a matter of time before you rip their hand apart with Therapy or Dread Return them out.

EDIT: Never mind, I see that. Let me fix that up. Sorry!

[Daize]

They see our hand at the cost of the mana and pass the turn.
This is still in :-). Otherwise, great write up. I definitely like the part about keeping priority.

[Michael Keller]

Thanks!

[Daize]

I kind of like the Faerie Macabre's main deck, though Chancellors seem to.. have a more general application. Lately I have been doubting the Chancellors though, as they're more of a nuisance than a gamebreaker. I would definitely love to see your sideboard ideas - more importantly what kind of cards to switch out in what situation. Reasoning rather than flat swap choices, to be able to build our common knowledge :-)

[potatodavid]

Almost every time I have ever played chancellor it has been a dead card. I reveal it, they cast their 1 spell or pay the :1: & move on. It has not been an effective card for me out of the board, I have cut it entirely due to its mediocrity.

[Michael Keller]

Almost every time I have ever played chancellor it has been a dead card. I reveal it, they cast their 1 spell or pay the :1: & move on. It has not been an effective card for me out of the board, I have cut it entirely due to its mediocrity.

But if that one Chancellor means delaying something like Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseize, Relic or Cage, that allows you to drop a dredger and possibly counter with a Force or Shoal in hand without having to triple-Time Walk an opponent. Delaying Deathrite Shaman until turn two seems kind of relevant right now. Maybe with the Forces we could run a pair of Chancellors - maybe three - to augment the Phantasmagorians and Street Wraiths?

I've never been a huge fan of it, but lately I'm starting to really see how good it can be in games two and three.

[Daize]

Funny, they've always been the cards I felt I "had" to take out because the rest of the deck is so rigid in sideboarding.

[Michael Keller]

Funny, they've always been the cards I felt I "had" to take out because the rest of the deck is so rigid in sideboarding.

It really just depends on the matchup. Someone who thinks they have a free draw by putting you on the play and them mulling to six can make Chancellor an equalizer in that they have to pass the turn if they want to protect that key spell. In that case, Chancellor lets you draw into a counter or a Street Wraith-into-a-counter so that you can counter the card on turn two after discarding.

Seriously, while I love and fully advocate the blue package, there's no more dejected a feeling than an opponent resolving a Relic or Cage on turn one when you draw the Force of Shoal on turn two when you're forced on the play. That extra draw can be crucial to completely pivot the game in your favor - thanks to Chancellor.

[potatodavid]

But if that one Chancellor means delaying something like Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseize, Relic or Cage, that allows you to drop a dredger and possibly counter with a Force or Shoal in hand without having to triple-Time Walk an opponent. Delaying Deathrite Shaman until turn two seems kind of relevant right now. Maybe with the Forces we could run a pair of Chancellors - maybe three - to augment the Phantasmagorians and Street Wraiths?

I've never been a huge fan of it, but lately I'm starting to really see how good it can be in games two and three.

They water down the deck further and I don't like it. They may delay a turn, but they are never a card I want to naturally draw, I run Blue Manaless and they just seem bad. (if i am going manaless). Also If I am going to dread return something, A 5/5 flyer isn't bad but whirlpool for victory seems better.

[Daize]

I actually play a combination of whirlpool riders and spies - bigger chances.

[Final Fortune]

As far as alternative card choices, I think Unmask is worth including in that section because its still fast enough to disrupt ANT and Show&Tell decks. Also under the green package, you should mention fetchlands as well as Forest.

As far as Chancellor is concerned, I don't know of any other SB card that increases your win rate as dramatically vs a T1 deck.

[Rivfader]

Congrats on the primer!
I almost have this deck put together (Spy version), the suggestions, tips and tricks mentioned above sure will come in handy.

Some questions, how much of a problem is Thalia? Seems like she cuts of Dread Return and Cabal Therapy, but perhaps it's manageable with Spirit/Ihorid recursion along with Bridge from below?
When siding, which cards are usually sided out (for example, versus combo with the suggested-decklist above: side in 1 force, 4 shoal, 2 Trap for ...)? To the inexperienced eye it seems hard to cut any mainboard card without diluting the mechanism.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Yeah, I did top 8 with Unmask.

Manaless Dredge, by Caleb Calhoun - A Magic: the Gathering Deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65891)

[Sovelis]

Amazing Primer Michael! Your work and insight on the deck is impeccable. Keep it up!

I have just a few things to add.

One thing I think is important to point out. It's just a rule regarding the phases of the game but is something newer players to the deck may not realize or understand. Remember that discarding a card is the very last thing in your cleanup step. This is important against Relic of Progenitus because they cannot get your only card in the graveyard with the tap activation or the full yard with the other ability at the end of your turn. This allows you to better protect your graveyard by discarding fluff and waiting until you find Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith to play around it. It also forces your opponent to use their mana less efficiently possibly giving you an extra turn to recover after the removal of your yard.

While I don't make it to tournaments very regularly, I still do test the deck with my friend Ryan McIntosh, who originally came up with the list I played back in 2011. After testing all sorts of off the wall things(which I wont get into here) I arrived at much of the same conclusions regarding the blue build. My list is the same as Michael's with the following changes:

MD
-2 Chancellor
+1 FoW
+1 Shambling Shell
Nothing super fancy.

SB
- 1 FoW
- 2 Ashen Rider
+ 2 Mindbreak Trap
+ 1 Contagion
These are mostly Metagame decisions. Use your own discretion.

Again, great write up! Looking forward to the SB strats and matchup analysis down the road.

[MGB]

Wow. If only every deck had a primer this thorough and awesome.

[Echelon]

When siding, which cards are usually sided out (for example, versus combo with the suggested-decklist above: side in 1 force, 4 shoal, 2 Trap for ...)? To the inexperienced eye it seems hard to cut any mainboard card without diluting the mechanism.

The first things to go out are the Gitaxian Probes. After that, the Street Wraiths go. If 8 slots isn't enough, you could cut a DR target and mayhaps a Shambling Shell.

Or at least, that's how I tend to board. Trading in speed for answers. I like to keep my Chancellors in the 60 even postboard, since often you want to slow your opponent down as much as possible so you actually GET to play the stuff you boarded in.

[DarkJester]

The first things to go out are the Gitaxian Probes. After that, the Street Wraiths go. If 8 slots isn't enough, you could cut a DR target and mayhaps a Shambling Shell.

Or at least, that's how I tend to board. Trading in speed for answers. I like to keep my Chancellors in the 60 even postboard, since often you want to slow your opponent down as much as possible so you actually GET to play the stuff you boarded in.

I think I have a different take on this. Depending on the MU I tend to cut some of my clunkier cards first (Nether Shadow for example, then I shave some things, like maybe a Dread Return). Cutting Probes makes your Forces AND your Cabal Therapies worse while making you even slower. Against Combo-Decks like Omnitell or SnS Faerie Macabre is pretty useless, so it can get the axe too.
Always ask the question which card has the most impact on the actual MU.

Just my 2 cents. ;)

P.S.: If you are on the Spy-Plan you may just add one Progenitus, Serra Avatar etc. to your Deck and suddenly al of your Spys are valid cards to put into your Opponents Show and Tell ;) (good against Decks which play a fast Show for Emmy, not that good against an Omniscience obviously)

[Echelon]

I think I have a different take on this. Depending on the MU I tend to cut some of my clunkier cards first (Nether Shadow for example, then I shave some things, like maybe a Dread Return). Cutting Probes makes your Forces AND your Cabal Therapies worse while making you even slower. Against Combo-Decks like Omnitell or SnS Faerie Macabre is pretty useless, so it can get the axe too.
Always ask the question which card has the most impact on the actual MU.

Just my 2 cents. ;)

P.S.: If you are on the Spy-Plan you may just add one Progenitus, Serra Avatar etc. to your Deck and suddenly al of your Spys are valid cards to put into your Opponents Show and Tell ;) (good against Decks which play a fast Show for Emmy, not that good against an Omniscience obviously)

I'm not on the FoW/Faerie Macabre plan, so I don't have to worry about worsening my FoWs and don't have the Macabres to side out :smile:. About Therapy getting worse - meh, how often does it happen that you can Probe before Therapy'ing? It's in your first 7 only 40% of the time and often you'll use it long before you get to Therapy. If you get to Therapy, just name the card that presents the biggest risk at that point. If you hit it, great. If you miss, yay, they don't have it. I like keeping the engine in tact rather then board out stuff that can help me to combo out (like Nether Shadow).

[Plague Sliver]

Can I just say that the primer alone makes me wants to play Manaless Dredge? I'm writing this as someone who's never played any build of Dredge, only against it.

I may have to give Blue Manaless a shot now.

[BJeagle]

Yeah, I did top 8 with Unmask.

Manaless Dredge, by Caleb Calhoun - A Magic: the Gathering Deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65891)

Did you have any problems with low creaturecount in the graveyard for nether and ichorids?

What about mulligans?

How do you sideboard against DtB?

[potatodavid]

What about mulligans?



Where we're going we don't need mulligans.

[BJeagle]

Im playing with 17 dredgers, thats why i wounder.

[Daize]

Point 1
The argument for cutting Probes and Street Wraiths interest me. Same with cutting the Chancellors - Is there a difference between trading in your speed (for answers), and trading in "things that make your opponent slower"?

In a sense, yes - and the answer lies in interaction. Your extra speed in Street Wraiths* / Probes does not not interact with your opponent in general, which is what you want in game 2 and 3. Chancellors do interact by slowing down their game, and changing their choices (as Michael pointed out really well in the primer).

If you're fighting fast combo, my reasoning is as follows:
You want to slow them down enough for you to gain momentum (+ Chancellor of the Annex), to answer their quick, non-protected hate (+ disrupting shoal, + Fow, keep in probes as FoW and DS fodder vs Grafdigger, Surgical Extraction and SW to cycle for answers or reply to Surgical or DRS).
Here I'm thinking: what fits roles the least here. We cannot really cut dredgers, so what should we cut? If we're not cutting Street Wraith, maybe we should cut some:

- Phantasmagorians. They are great for the same reason Street Wraith is great, but doesn't give you the immediate dredge.
- Nether Shadow is important for creating tokens, but doesn't have the power Ichorid has in terms of reliability and damage. I would probably shave one or two here too.
- Flayer of the Hatebound and 1-2 Dread Returns - if you're not playing Spy and you're playing Whirlpool Rider, I would probably cut down on the Combo too. With you already destroying your own hand and either them destroying yours or playing SnT, Returning a Whirlpool Rider won't have the same impact - and vs. SnT the Ashen Rider pretty much seals the deal anyway, making the Combo abundant.
-- If you are playing Spy, I might cut it in favour of SB cards if you still have Whirlpool Rider, but if that's your only alternative: I may just cut Spy anyway and rather focus on Returning a multi-faceted card like Golgari Grave-Troll or a ditched Ashen Rider than focusing solely on that narrow Spy. Sorry, Spy!

I would love to hear thoughts, preferably (like mine) from experience, and with arguments :-).

* Keep in if you expect Surgical Extraction and/or Deathrite Shaman to respond




Point 2

Im playing with 17 dredgers, thats why i wounder.


17 dredgers, how does that work? 4 GGT, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 4 Golgari Thug, 4 Shambling Shell... and 1... ? That seems pretty abundant. I've noticed that I'm walking the fine line with 4 GGT, 4 SI, 4 GT and 2 SS, and for consistency 15 seems to be the perfect, perfect number.

Point 3
Michael, how does 2 Chancellor's work for you? To me, it feels a bit like running 2 Leylines (in any deck).

Point 4
Again to Hollywood, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid&p=842332&viewfull=1#post842332 <-- here's the report with the PTQ GPT Legacy a New Jersey (final) video.

[Michael Keller]

Point 1
The argument for cutting Probes and Street Wraiths interest me. Same with cutting the Chancellors - Is there a difference between trading in your speed (for answers), and trading in "things that make your opponent slower"?

In a sense, yes - and the answer lies in interaction. Your extra speed in Street Wraiths* / Probes does not not interact with your opponent in general, which is what you want in game 2 and 3. Chancellors do interact by slowing down their game, and changing their choices (as Michael pointed out really well in the primer).

If you're fighting fast combo, my reasoning is as follows:
You want to slow them down enough for you to gain momentum (+ Chancellor of the Annex), to answer their quick, non-protected hate (+ disrupting shoal, + Fow, keep in probes as FoW and DS fodder vs Grafdigger, Surgical Extraction and SW to cycle for answers or reply to Surgical or DRS).
Here I'm thinking: what fits roles the least here. We cannot really cut dredgers, so what should we cut? If we're not cutting Street Wraith, maybe we should cut some:

- Phantasmagorians. They are great for the same reason Street Wraith is great, but doesn't give you the immediate dredge.
- Nether Shadow is important for creating tokens, but doesn't have the power Ichorid has in terms of reliability and damage. I would probably shave one or two here too.
- Flayer of the Hatebound and 1-2 Dread Returns - if you're not playing Spy and you're playing Whirlpool Rider, I would probably cut down on the Combo too. With you already destroying your own hand and either them destroying yours or playing SnT, Returning a Whirlpool Rider won't have the same impact - and vs. SnT the Ashen Rider pretty much seals the deal anyway, making the Combo abundant.
-- If you are playing Spy, I might cut it in favour of SB cards if you still have Whirlpool Rider, but if that's your only alternative: I may just cut Spy anyway and rather focus on Returning a multi-faceted card like Golgari Grave-Troll or a ditched Ashen Rider than focusing solely on that narrow Spy. Sorry, Spy!

I would love to hear thoughts, preferably (like mine) from experience, and with arguments :-).

* Keep in if you expect Surgical Extraction and/or Deathrite Shaman to respond




Point 1



17 dredgers, how does that work? 4 GGT, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 4 Golgari Thug, 4 Shambling Shell... and 1... ? That seems pretty abundant. I've noticed that I'm walking the fine line with 4 GGT, 4 SI, 4 GT and 2 SS, and for consistency 15 seems to be the perfect, perfect number.

Point 3
Michael, how does 2 Chancellor's work for you? To me, it feels a bit like running 2 Leylines (in any deck).

Point 4
Again to Hollywood, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid&p=842332&viewfull=1#post842332 <-- here's the report with the PTQ GPT Legacy a New Jersey (final) video.

Updated the OP with the link. I'm going to need to do some adjusting and update the OP as well with some other card choices, like Unmask.

As far as the two Chancellors, they've been really good actually. Chancellor in droves of three or four becomes a little awkward, but two seems just fine to augment the Phantasmagorians and Street Wraiths to counter Deathrite Shaman and enable a turn-one discard to turn on Force or Shoal without worrying about Time Walking yourself.

[Daize]

I see your point, two in hand may actually hurt you too much by taking the place of a possible dredger, FoW, DS. But having one in your starting hand would be great. I'm going to start trying 3 to see what happens.

In a lot of senses this deck has luxury problems so it seems. Too many of the thing that'll be good anytime you have it (in your starting hand) is actually bad. Confusing!

[Echelon]

@Michael: What I'm still missing at this point is an in depth analysis on when to recur Ichorids and when not to (in relation to the opponents' board, your graveyard and so on) and an analysis on combat - when to send Ichorids into the red zone and when to sacrifice them to Therapies/just let them die naturally without attacking, ie. Ichorids smashing face (or just smashing face in general) vs. preserving your Bridges/improving your board state (or in other words balancing between the Ichorid beatdown plan and the combo finish plan).

I think those are some of the trickiest parts of the deck and some of the most important things one needs to learn in order to play the deck well.

You might also want to highlight the redundancy in the deck - if my opponent strips away my Bridges, what are my options/how does that impact my gameplan, what if he strips away/disables Dread Returns, dredgers, Ichorids, etcetera. The resilience of this deck is amazing and in my opinion one of the most underlit attributes of the deck.

[BJeagle]

[QUOTE=Daize;875320]
Point 2



17 dredgers, how does that work? 4 GGT, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 4 Golgari Thug, 4 Shambling Shell... and 1... ? That seems pretty abundant. I've noticed that I'm walking the fine line with 4 GGT, 4 SI, 4 GT and 2 SS, and for consistency 15 seems to be the perfect, perfect number.

Im playing this list, but im curious sbout Unmask...

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28175_Leaving-A-Legacy-Manaless-Dredge-At-SCGLA.html

[Echelon]

I used to run Unmask but at some point I switched to Chancellors and never looked back. I think Unmask is SB material and nothing more. Chancellor can serve a double role where Unmask can't. Chancellor as a DR target is actually a thing in long, grindy matches (like Miracles) where an Unmask in the GY does absolutely nothing.

Also, Chancellor doesn't need another card to do its' business where Unmask does. And since we're on the draw in G1 (normally), Daze is live by the time you get to cast Unmask whereas Chancellor ignores Daze altogether (and protects you from the dreaded 1-drop discussed earlier where Unmask is too slow to catch it while also being vulnerable to Daze & friends).

[BJeagle]

I used to run Unmask but at some point I switched to Chancellors and never looked back. I think Unmask is SB material and nothing more. Chancellor can serve a double role where Unmask can't. Chancellor as a DR target is actually a thing in long, grindy matches (like Miracles) where an Unmask in the GY does absolutely nothing.

Also, Chancellor doesn't need another card to do its' business where Unmask does. And since we're on the draw in G1 (normally), Daze is live by the time you get to cast Unmask whereas Chancellor ignores Daze altogether (and protects you from the dreaded 1-drop discussed earlier where Unmask is too slow to catch it while also being vulnerable to Daze & friends).

Ok. How is you decklist?

[Echelon]

Ok. How is you decklist?

I run the standard Spy list w/ Chancellors in the flex slots and a Progenitus instead of the 16th dredger/4th Spy.

So that brings us to this :smile::

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Progenitus
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Progenitus pisses me off from time to time, but he's proven quite useful in the longer, more grindy matches. He allows you to take some more risks with your Spy (as in DR'ing it, even though you have to use your last DR to return it. Progenitus allows you to pound your opponent into oblivion with a few turns of Ichorid/zombie-token beats when you've run out of gas to combo with or allows you to spread the combo kill over 2 turns in the case that all of your Bridges have been exiled)

[Daize]

I actually had a match where a very resilient opponent had me use my dread returns without comboing early, and finally use my last DR on flayer. I ripped all target removal out of his hand with Cabal Therapy, had 0 cards in my library, and only a topdeck could save him.

Why?

Upkeep is before the drawstep. The returning nether shadows and ichorids with ~15 damage via flayer were enough.

without suggesting you don't, would knowing that still have Progenitus offset its downsides for you?

[Echelon]

I actually had a match where a very resilient opponent had me use my dread returns without comboing early, and finally use my last DR on flayer. I ripped all target removal out of his hand with Cabal Therapy, had 0 cards in my library, and only a topdeck could save him.

Why?

Upkeep is before the drawstep. The returning nether shadows and ichorids with ~15 damage via flayer were enough.

without suggesting you don't, would knowing that still have Progenitus offset its downsides for you?

Flayer doesn't always get you there. Good luck trying that when you've been fighting off a Batterskull the entire game. Sure, the occassions where having Progenitus or something similar is relevant in a limited amount of cases but I tend to run into them often enough to care.

[potatodavid]

I run the standard Spy list w/ Chancellors in the flex slots and a Progenitus instead of the 16th dredger/4th Spy.



How are you animating Progenitus. It has a replacement effect and never hits the yard.

[Echelon]

How are you animating Progenitus. It has a replacement effect and never hits the yard.

That's kind of the point of Progenitus... It's not there as a DR target.

[Michael Keller]

How are you animating Progenitus. It has a replacement effect and never hits the yard.

It's used to prevent you from decking yourself when you flip your deck.

[Daize]

Of course depending on the metagame, I'm rather leaning towards simply running Whirlpool Rider and be wise with dredge choices not decking yourself, saving a spot with Progenitus in an already tight list :p.

[Dziga Murnau]

So, Michael, nowadays your deck loses turn zero to Leyline of the Void? I understand it fights better with Cage and RiP, but is there really no way to stand against LotV? Looks quite desperate.
Why in the end you play Contagion over Shoal?

[Echelon]

Most nasty hatebears have toughness < 3, so Contagion kills those while also letting you kill 2 weenies with 1 card every once in a while.

[Michael Keller]

I just lose to Leyline. I don't want to commit slots to deal with it as it's more situational and much more uncommon than other hate.

Contagion spreads the wealth and I like it's ability to kill multiple dudes. It can kill DRS, too.

[Rivfader]

When would you ideally kill a Deathrite Shaman?
After you discarded a dredger, in your opponents turn (giving him the opportunity to snatch it away) of before, during your first turn (delaying yourself 2 turns)?

[gibbousm]

I never bothered to commit anti-hate to my list. I did run 4 Contagion in the sideboard and while I did bring it in against hatebears and DRS, I mostly ran it for dealing with creature based combo decks like Elves and Infect.

If I have contagion, and my opponent has a DRS, I'll only use it if my only Dredger could be exiled by it before I can dredge.

[Echelon]

I ran Manaless at my local legacy monthly with the Spy-list I posted a while back. Went 2-3 and had some interesting ideas after doing so.

Round 1, 2-1 vs. Esper Stoneblade:
Game 1, he didn't see the combo coming so after stripping his hand of counters I went for it. Game 2 we went back and forth a bit until he landed Tasigur, Batterskull and Containment Priest. I scooped and we proceeded to game 3. Here, I had an Unmask and some more nice stuff. After Unmasking him, he only had a Brainstorm and 4 land in hand. He died soon after.

Round 2, 2-0 vs. Esper Stoneblade:
This opponent didn't quite know what she was doing. She had to read most of my cards, somewhere made me discard a dredger (lol) and wanted to start game 2 herself. So, yeah.

Round 3, 0-2 vs. Esper Stoneblade (again):
So, facing the same deck 3 rounds in a row. Only difference was that this guy knew what he was doing. Round 1 I got rather unlucky. I had Progenitus in my hand for just about the entire game (and at first I was quite happy about that) until I had 12 cards left in my library and in those 12 were 3 Bridges, 2 Ichorids and Flayer of the Hatebound. It is here where I thought that having Progenitus in my library could have improved that a bit, letting me shuffle my deck every now and again and all. Towards the end of the game I made the mistake of attacking with a DR'd Chancellor, leaving me open to Batterskull + Stoneforge with a Jitte while I was at 3 life. Game 2 he played incredibly well and I got unlucky with my Bridges. I started with 2 in my hand and dredged 2 into my yard with my first dredge 6. How is this unlucky? Well, he figured out it was a good plan to bounce his Batterskull back and forth and soon also hadded a Jitte stacked with counters. The game went on for quite a while, but he got me in the end. At some point I could Therapy + DR in 1 turn, but after the Therapy whiffed on Force of Will I saw he had Spell Pierce in my hand so I couldn't go for the kill. Oh well...

Round 4, 0-2 vs. ANT
Yeah... Well... What to say. I almost got there game 2, but he was just a little bit quicker, that's all.

Round 5, 1-2 vs. 4C Delver
Game 1 was over quick, thanks to Ichorid beats & zombies. Game 2 he goes land, Graffdiggers Cage. I scoop. He looks at me and asks me why. I explain, he looks at me befuddled and we go for game 3. I had a hand consisting of a Stinkweed Imp and 2 Street Wraiths so I'm feeling good. After he mullled to 6 his first turn was land, Ponder, shuffle. I discard my Imp and pass the turn. Island, Graffdiggers Cage. I extend my hand and wish him well for the top 8.

So I started out well, but then it all went south. Two things I picked up during the day:

Sometimes, when you already have a dredger in the yard, it pays off to discard a Nether Shadow rather than the dredger you just returned to your hand. Especially when having Probes and/or Street Wraiths in your hand. That one Shadow can make the difference between killing your opponent next turn and not.

Dredging into Progenitus isn't bad. It lets you shuffle away a clump of Bridges that rests at the bottom of your deck.

[Dziga Murnau]

Of course you don't have to autodiscard dredgers at cleanup, if your graveyard already have some. If you dredged some more Trolls and Imps, it's better to discard the most needed business that got stuck in your hand. Bridge, Ichorid, Therapy, DR, DR targets.
Tested Shifting Wall build, found it not as fast as I would like to (usually it's +1 Zombie for 0 mana and inability to discard at cleanup), after all the tweaks returned to the same version, as in the OP.

[Echelon]

I always did wonder why that version wouldn't run Ornithopters/Phyrexian Walkers/Shifting Walls instead of X manacost creatures. Having them stick around as blockers and potential food for Therapies/DR's seemed quite useful to me rather than just convert them to tokens.

[Dziga Murnau]

I always did wonder why that version wouldn't run Ornithopters/Phyrexian Walkers/Shifting Walls instead of X manacost creatures. Having them stick around as blockers and potential food for Therapies/DR's seemed quite useful to me rather than just convert them to tokens.

That's because you get your tokens immidiately. Like, no Therapies, three Bridges, no creatures - play Shifting Wall, get three Zombie, reanimate what you like, But that's too heavy relying on Bridges. The strength of the deck is in the fact, that it operates quite well even without key cards (but please, just let our cards fall into graveyard and our creatures stay uncaged).

I really like, how the deck looks nowadays, without that traditional attitude for Dredge "pray a lot, YOLO hard". The less it operates like glass cannon, the stronger it is.

[Echelon]

That's because you get your tokens immidiately. Like, no Therapies, three Bridges, no creatures - play Shifting Wall, get three Zombie, reanimate what you like, But that's too heavy relying on Bridges. The strength of the deck is in the fact, that it operates quite well even without key cards (but please, just let our cards fall into graveyard and our creatures stay uncaged).

That's pretty much my entire point, I want my creatures to stay in play so I don't need the Bridges. As in, T1 discard a dredger, T2 dredge into a Narcomoeba/return an Ichorid, drop 2 0 cmc creatures and be ready to Therapy/DR as soon as you can, Bridges or not. All this deck wants to do is have 3+ creatures in play, flip the library and move to the next game.

[BJeagle]

4 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Faerie Macabre

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4 Lotus Petal
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Noxious Revival
3 Chrome Mox

Playing around with this deck/SB now. SB works great against cage, RiP, Thalia, Priest, Deathrite... Noxious can be used as graveyardhate, and turn 1 Cala Therapy against storm. Sometimes it just take some extra turns to cast Decay but i love that its uncounterble and i dont have to scoop anymore...

[Echelon]

@11 manasources (if you count Noxious Revival as such) the odds of you actually having the 2+ mana you need for AD in your opening 7 (since a good opponent WILL force you to start G2/3) are slightly < 40%. And you also want an AD/Noxious Revival with that..?

Alrighty then...

[Dziga Murnau]

4 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Faerie Macabre

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4 Lotus Petal
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Noxious Revival
3 Chrome Mox

Playing around with this deck/SB now. SB works great against cage, RiP, Thalia, Priest, Deathrite... Noxious can be used as graveyardhate, and turn 1 Cala Therapy against storm. Sometimes it just take some extra turns to cast Decay but i love that its uncounterble and i dont have to scoop anymore...
Still loses to Leyline of the Void...

[Echelon]

Still loses to Leyline of the Void...

And I still have to encounter the Leyline for the first time. So what's your point?

[BJeagle]

is there a any other way to play abrupt decay and no lands?

[jimmythegreek]

is there a any other way to play abrupt decay and no lands?

Forget abrupt decay, seriously. Abrupt decay works in led dredge.....barely. There's just no reliable way to cast the card in this deck when needed, not to mention it's only good against cage. The reason why manaless went to fow is because rip exiles when it comes into play, destroying rip after its effect is probably too late. Save your money and buy a play set of fow's.

[slave]

GREAT PRIMER Michael, onya man, bloody well done. :wink:


Forget abrupt decay, seriously. Abrupt decay works in led dredge.....barely. There's just no reliable way to cast the card in this deck when needed, not to mention it's only good against cage. The reason why manaless went to fow is because rip exiles when it comes into play, destroying rip after its effect is probably too late. Save your money and buy a play set of fow's.

^^^This.
Abrupt Decay? Wrong deck mate. I wouldn't play that card in LED-Dredge let alone here. In LED Dredge I usually run Nature's Claim for that purpose.

I've run every version of Manaless over the years, whether it's the fearless Spy version, anti-hate green or the blue-counter side plan.
In my experience, I found none were necessarily better against dedicated hate, as each deck works on a different idea, and has their weaknesses, but I would personally roll with blue. When it works, blue has the opportunity to continue to exert pressure on the opponent as the graveyard stays intact. Whereas, the other versions either fight back from having no graveyard, or just roll over and die.
That said, the number of time you'll counter RiP, Grafdiggers Cage etc. will be less than the times you'll see them stick and force you to scoop.
The only sad thing about the blue plan though, is that the main reanimation target in Whirlpool Rider, is a lot less effective than Griselbrand, but can still be enough to close out a game.

[Michael Keller]

Thanks!

I'll be running Manaless this weekend at a decent-sized tournament and will do an update after the tournament.

[jimmythegreek]

Thanks!

I'll be running Manaless this weekend at a decent-sized tournament and will do an update after the tournament.

So, when playing dredge why do you prefer playing manaless over led versions. Reason I'm asking is because I have the led's but am on a limited budget and I'd like to play the manaless blue version. Unfortunately, getting fow's would envolve trading the led's. Basically I'm always gonna play dredge, just not sure which version to dedicate to tournaments to increase my skill with. How have your tournament results differed from each version?

[Michael Keller]

X-0'd the local tonight, beating Grixis Pyromancer, Punishing Jund and Reanimator. I played a list using Serum Powder, Shifting Wall, Phyrexian Marauder and Balustrade Spy.

It was actually pretty fun. Serum Powder augmented some slower hands and gave me a double-Street Wraith start against Jund in the face of Deathrite Shaman. Against Reanimator a Powder gave me a Faerie Macabre start, which turned out to be a blowout. I also made a boatload of tokens with the robots, which was completely relevant.

The highlight of the evening was Dread Returning a Street Wraith to get around a gummed-up board state in round one with Swampwalk sealing the deal.

I just like Manaless's style. It's non-interactive and does some degenerate things without folding to conditional counters or tempo cards like LED Dredge does. That's really it.

[hellhound]

X-0'd the local tonight, beating Grixis Pyromancer, Punishing Jund and Reanimator. I played a list using Serum Powder, Shifting Wall, Phyrexian Marauder and Balustrade Spy.

It was actually pretty fun. Serum Powder augmented some slower hands and gave me a double-Street Wraith start against Jund in the face of Deathrite Shaman. Against Reanimator a Powder gave me a Faerie Macabre start, which turned out to be a blowout. I also made a boatload of tokens with the robots, which was completely relevant.

The highlight of the evening was Dread Returning a Street Wraith to get around a gummed-up board state in round one with Swampwalk sealing the deal.

I just like Manaless's style. It's non-interactive and does some degenerate things without folding to conditional counters or tempo cards like LED Dredge does. That's really it.

Hi michael! Would you share the list with X-robots and powders?
I'm really interested in testing it. After 8 years of dredge playing, ledless, ledwith, next level, green manaless, fearless, quadlaser, i'm getting a bit bored and i'd really love to try somethin new and actively contribute to develope this deck. Nowadays i'm settled on blue manaless with chancellors md.

Thanks!

[datanaga]

X-0'd the local tonight, beating Grixis Pyromancer, Punishing Jund and Reanimator. I played a list using Serum Powder, Shifting Wall, Phyrexian Marauder and Balustrade Spy.

It was actually pretty fun. Serum Powder augmented some slower hands and gave me a double-Street Wraith start against Jund in the face of Deathrite Shaman. Against Reanimator a Powder gave me a Faerie Macabre start, which turned out to be a blowout. I also made a boatload of tokens with the robots, which was completely relevant.

The highlight of the evening was Dread Returning a Street Wraith to get around a gummed-up board state in round one with Swampwalk sealing the deal.

I just like Manaless's style. It's non-interactive and does some degenerate things without folding to conditional counters or tempo cards like LED Dredge does. That's really it.

Thanks for pushing this archetype forward, I really appreciate it.

Regarding to your X (0) mana creatures, memnite and shield sphere ale better than your robots, even though most of the time it is absolutely irrelevant.

[Echelon]

Thanks for pushing this archetype forward, I really appreciate it.

Regarding to your X (0) mana creatures, memnite and shield sphere ale better than your robots, even though most of the time it is absolutely irrelevant.

Not Memnite though. Better use Phyrexian Walker/Ornithopter, makes for safe blocks.

[Michael Keller]

Thanks for pushing this archetype forward, I really appreciate it.

Regarding to your X (0) mana creatures, memnite and shield sphere ale better than your robots, even though most of the time it is absolutely irrelevant.

I disagree. Those creatures have a built-in sacrifice outlet, unlike their counterparts. That especially helps against Grafdigger's Cage, where you can drop a couple of them and make a bunch of zombies.

They also ensure Nether Shadow's return in the event you absolutely need him the following turn with only two creatures piled above him.

[Rivfader]

I disagree. Those creatures have a built-in sacrifice outlet, unlike their counterparts. That especially helps against Grafdigger's Cage, where you can drop a couple of them and make a bunch of zombies.

They also ensure Nether Shadow's return in the event you absolutely need him the following turn with only two creatures piled above him.

Id also be interested seeing your list, mind sharing it with us?

[Final Fortune]

You just take the standard list and replace the 8 flex cards with 8 X mana robots, it's not rocket science. It's probably the fastest list if you take into consideration it's the least disruptable via Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm if you want to goldfish.

[hellhound]

You just take the standard list and replace the 8 flex cards with 8 X mana robots, it's not rocket science. It's probably the fastest list if you take into consideration it's the least disruptable via Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm if you want to goldfish.

How about Serum powders? What we should cut for them?

[Rivfader]

How about Serum powders? What we should cut for them?

And how's the sideboard. Noxious revival might be good in conjunction with the X-creatures.

[Michael Keller]

Came in 9th and missed out on Top 8 due to tight breakers. I played the robot list (no Powders):

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

4 Phyrexian Marauder
2 Shifting Wall

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

///
4 Contagion
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
2 Shifting Wall

Matchups:
2-0 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Nic Fit
1-2 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
1-2 vs. Patriot
2-1 vs. U/R Delver

I'll report on it tomorrow.

[mistercakes]

Came in 9th and missed out on Top 8 due to tight breakers. I played the robot list (no Powders):

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

4 Phyrexian Marauder
2 Shifting Wall

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

///
4 Contagion
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
2 Shifting Wall

Matchups:
2-0 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Nic Fit
1-2 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
1-2 vs. Patriot
2-1 vs. U/R Delver

I'll report on it tomorrow.

so with this list you'll just scoop to leyline of the void or a resolved rest in peace right? i think it's totally fine if that's the case, i'm just wondering if you're gambling on it or aware of your meta.

-rob

[Michael Keller]

so with this list you'll just scoop to leyline of the void or a resolved rest in peace right? i think it's totally fine if that's the case, i'm just wondering if you're gambling on it or aware of your meta.

-rob

It's all in. That is correct.

EDIT: Notes from the event...

1. I did not run into Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace once in this event. My two losses were actually to Containment Priest. In the match-up against Patriot, I was prepared for it and in game two I got around a Relic and killed one Containment Priest with Contagion. However, the second was too much. The third game of that round was an epic confrontation that saw me survive triple Surgical on Shadows, Bridges and Ichorids. I was able to Dread Return a huge Troll and a Chancellor of the Annex, but his recurring Batterskull was enough to slow me down and in the end I just ran out of gas.

2. The other round I lost to Miracles with Containment Priest, as well. I just couldn't hit my Contagion(s) after he mulled to six in game three and I had a blowout start with Phantasmagorian and double Street Wraith, only to fall victim to a Containment Priest.

3. All other rounds were effectively decisive in their finishes. It seems like this version was actually a better call than the Force version, because apparently no one was expecting graveyard-based decks at this tournament. Contagion was huge when it needed to be, even killing two unflipped Delvers from the U/R player.

4. The robots made some zombies here and there, but ultimately, the results were inconclusive because I never got to open with multiples. Perhaps that's on me for going with six as opposed to eight. Opening with them was cool, but they turned out rather meh.

Right when people want to pack it in with Contagion, the card keeps paying dividends when it matters most. This event was more of a pilot for this variation of Dredge, however, I think I'll be sticking to the Force version from now on in. I just think it's too good for what it does.

[Michael Keller]

What do you guys think about this list:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell

[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith

[3x] Whirlpool Rider
[1x] The Mimeoplasm
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return

[4x] Gitaxian Probe
[4x] Force of Will

//Sideboard
[4x] Disrupting Shoal
[3x] Contagion
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Ashen Rider
[2x] Vengeful Pharaoh

So, here's what I was thinking about this list which I'm really liking:

1. I think going with the full compliment of Forces in the main is perfectly viable, so long as we have at least sixteen blue cards in the main. We also have four Street Wraith and a draw step to find the additional blue card or Force to make it relevant. It's more of a personal choice than anything else, but I just feel the blowout capability of the card is exceptionally strong and turns useless Narcomoebas into legitimate utility. I think that just showcases the power of Force of Will, especially in a deck with no library manipulation depending on its opening hand.

2. The Mimeoplasm seems to be reasonably strong in this iteration of Manaless for a few reasons. I like the fact first and foremost the card can be exiled to Ichorid, Contagion, Force and Shoal (which counters Force with it in hand) - while also stacking on top of Shadow. Those are huge synergies. The ability of the card in testing proved to be extremely versatile, from making a huge Troll-esque creature to the added ability of Whirlpool-Riding cards back into my library. It can also act as graveyard removal against an opponent while creating a huge threat on your side. I think it's a great catch-all slot that can win games and act as a clutch utility pitch card. I like it.

3. Vengeful Pharaoh is a card that I think has some incredibly important value in this deck right now in Legacy. After losing two rounds at this previous tournament and clocking in at ninth on tight breakers, I lost to Containment Priest twice. Contagion clearly is a card that kill the Priest on its own, which is fine. Counters also become highly relevant in that situation, but I was looking at options that operate out of the graveyard that have some added versatility. The Pharaoh can be discarded to Phantasmagorian at instant speed to kill the Priest and allow for the recursion process to continue the following turn. It also acts as a surprise removal element against Reanimator and Sneak and Show, augmenting the Faerie Macabres and Ashen Riders.

It's also highly innocuous while in your graveyard, even in plain site. Being able to knock off Priest is huge without interaction, and although it may cost us a Bridge or two, Contagion would do the same thing except 1.) It needs to be in our opening hand, and 2.) It can be countered. I like the surprise utility and the fact it can be exiled to Ichorid and stacks on Shadows. This is a card, however, I would never want to pitch to Contagion because hitting a Phantasmagorian against an opponent with a Priest on the table is the nut high.

Let me know what you guys think.

[Mitalca]

1. I still dont like The Fow main. Not even one. Most decks cant never win G1 against us. I prefer other choices. I understand that my way takes more side space, but still

2. I dont like mimeoplasm. Those synergies are cool, but the same can be said about any UB 5cmc creature. I just dont see the utility
How con you get a Troll-esque creature? The max power in this deck is 4 (6 for phanta but i dont think I'll exile one of those often). I need to already have a rider in the gy to combo, and i might just bring that one back.

3. Pharaoh i like. Its a new effect, uncountereable, sometimes instant Speed, doesnt cost a card and still works as fodder in the gy
The problem is that once you use it, the cat is out, no oponent will ever attack with the priest, just in case. They actually dont need to
I'd save it for your next big tourney as a surtirse

[Michael Keller]

1. I still dont like The Fow main. Not even one. Most decks cant never win G1 against us. I prefer other choices. I understand that my way takes more side space, but still

This is a matter of preference, which I can respect. However, if you're opting to play a blue Manaless Dredge deck, it might be worth looking at older green-based lists which ran Dryad Arbor main to augment sideboard options preemptively. The same is true here in a different context, except Force of Will is far more powerful and has a wider application against the format as a whole.


2. I dont like mimeoplasm. Those synergies are cool, but the same can be said about any UB 5cmc creature. I just dont see the utility
How con you get a Troll-esque creature? The max power in this deck is 4 (6 for phanta but i dont think I'll exile one of those often). I need to already have a rider in the gy to combo, and i might just bring that one back.

There are no other creatures that have the synergies this card does in this particular variation of Manaless while abusing the graveyard(s) to its advantage at the same time. The Mimeoplasm can enter the battlefield as a Golgari Grave-Troll in your graveyard, nabbing X counters based on creatures existing in your graveyard while adding more counters based on an additionally exiled creature. (This is also assuming you go that route.)

So, if you exile a Troll from your graveyard and a Griselbrand in an opponent's graveyard, assuming a Troll would enter the battlefield as, say, a 12/12 (counting itself), it would then become a 19/19 with seven additional +1/+1 counters based on the exiled Griselbrand's power - which is seven.

Or you could just make The Mimeoplasm a Griselbrand and win on the spot, no matter its P/T.


3. Pharaoh i like. Its a new effect, uncountereable, sometimes instant Speed, doesnt cost a card and still works as fodder in the gy
The problem is that once you use it, the cat is out, no oponent will ever attack with the priest, just in case. They actually dont need to
I'd save it for your next big tourney as a surtirse

Again, a wider application against a variety of strategies. Something tells me an opponent isn't going to not ram Priest in because they think I'm playing Vengeful Pharaohs. There's virtually no reason not to attack with it to close the game out if its their only creature, which is likely if it hits the table and can attack on their turn three. In that instance, you simply don't resolve the triggers from your graveyard creatures and bin a Pharaoh from Phantasmagorian as soon as they attack. The longer the game gets dragged out, the more opportunities they have to lose from me drawing something to kill it.

And it's not like we're playing with a set here; we're running two to augment the Contagions as a means to kill it without interaction. At some point, an opponent is going to have to attack you, otherwise you're going to draw removal naturally to kill it or play draw-go and waste time on the clock - which is in your favor in a game-two situation.

I can see if its in the graveyard beforehand being an issue, but think about it like this - would you rather have a Pharaoh in the graveyard (or hidden in your hand and on the way to the graveyard) that can actually do something about Priest or a useless, dredged-away Contagion that does absolutely nothing? Playing both gives you another angle of attack and it seems slightly out of the realm of believability that 99.9% of your opponents won't attack you with an active creature and you with no creatures on the board playing a deck with no mana - knowing full well with the previous turn's triggers on the stack that you could have - and should have - killed the Priest using something from your hand to allow those triggers to resolve and win.

[Domel]

I would replace Mineoplasm with Dinrova Horror. It is black, it is blue, it is a creature + it does Recoil and this might be helpfull g1 against lands or S&T decks.

[Michael Keller]

I would replace Mineoplasm with Dinrova Horror. It is black, it is blue, it is a creature + it does Recoil and this might be helpfull g1 against lands or S&T decks.

In that instance, I would rather just play Ashen Rider main to eliminate the card once and for all. The Mimeoplasm has a better "finisher" capability pre-board with its weaved-in utility, and the converted mana cost of five in being able to counter Force back with Shoal is relevant in games two and three. I get the bounce can be relevant, but I wouldn't sacrifice Rider's ability main in place of a bounce card unless I was absolutely sure it was better. In this instance, I kept Rider(s) in the side and am trying The Mimeoplasm as a sixteenth blue (and black) card - but I think T.M. is just better overall.

Dinrova Horror isn't bad, it's just not as good to me as a card that eliminates something once and for all with the ability to do so again if need be - even if it is blue.

I used to play Faerie Macabre main to beat Lands and Reanimator, but it just seems better out of the board. I haven't run into those decks recently too much so I'm not overly concerned.

Most Show and Tell decks have a hard time dealing with discard, which this deck can do with multiple Therapy. The Ashen Riders also come in out of the board in the match-up, which isn't honestly all that bad game one. If an opponent decides to ram Emrakul in and you've got multiple Bridges in play, you can always crack back or combo out the following turn for the win. I did that this past weekend when my opponent decided to Show and Tell into Emrakul and me into something else. He attacked, annihilated and I made six zombies. I was then able to recur multiple Ichorids - hit a Narcomoeba for good measure - and killed him with Flayer after attacking him out first.

[Dziga Murnau]

Multiple instant Pharaohs (through SW or Phanty) are crazy against Thalia's decks as Thalia has first strike and after taking two from her we can kill attacking hatebears that haven't dealt damage to us. It's a metagame (full of creatures) card, but it's really good.
Searched for a 5-mana UB creature instead of TM and the only comparable one is Child of Alara. But Child is a control card, not a kill now card.
I should mention that with 2 Flayers 1 TM we need just a single DR to deal 21 damage to opponent.

[Echelon]

I'm not sure on the Mimeoplasm yet, but the Pharaoh is replacing the 4 Contagion in my SB. I'm ordering them as we speak. Triggered abilities from the 'yard to kill stuff? Suck on that, counterspells! Sure, it isn't an end-all solve-all but it does circumvent one of the problems one runs into with Contagion. Too bad it won't be hitting DRS, though.

Concerning the Robots build, I conjured up the following list:
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Progenitus

[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Phantasmagorian

[3x] Balustrady Spy
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return

[4x] Ornithopter
[4x] Phyrexian Walker
[4x] Shield Sphere

If we want to rely on our robots we need to make sure we're likely to have one or more of them so this list replaces all flex slots and speedy cards with 0 cmc creatures that are inable to kill opposing creatures. Having 12 of those means you have a 19% chance of not having one in your opening 7, 38% chance of having exactly 1, 29% for exactly 2 and roughly 14% of having 3+. The idea behind this is pretty obvious, I think. It allows for a lot of explosiveness, even without Bridge from Below.

I have yet to test the list myself, but goldfishing with some proxies have made me quite optimistic. I'm also not sure if it's better than any of the other builds, but it is fun as hell.

[Michael Keller]

I don't know if I'd run a full set of Vengeful Pharaoh. I think the surprise element of the card is what makes it so good in conjunction with Contagion. Although, if your opponent attacks with Containment Priest or another troublesome creature from Sneak and Show or Reanimator and you can bin it...

http://i.imgur.com/1PYNvkX.png

[slave]

1. I think going with the full compliment of Forces in the main is perfectly viable, so long as we have at least sixteen blue cards in the main.

2. The Mimeoplasm seems to be reasonably strong in this iteration of Manaless for a few reasons. .... I like it.

3. Vengeful Pharaoh is a card that I think has some incredibly important value in this deck right now in Legacy...
1. Force = yes. I haven't been running Manaless for some time, but I can't see myself running anything but the blue version after running it exclusively for about 3 months. It's just the most likely version to win post-board in my mind, but I don't think it's as good in game1 compared to a fearless approach.
Going the full 4 Force is definitely worth it IMO.

2. I'm sure about this one. My main concern here isn't synergy, but lack of killing effectively.
Given we'll always have Rider/Spy/Griselbrand;
Compared to Flayer, Mimeoplasm doesn't match up very well, as Flayer can win right there on our combo turn.
The graveyard removal isn't at instant speed, so it may not be super effective when we really need it.
I'm guessing this card is gonna be discard/exile fodder in effect > for me I'm not sure this card is massively better than running a generic UB card for all the exile effects with a marginal benefit like Magister Sphinx, Phenax, God of Destruction, Ruthless Deathfang etc etc.
Feel free to prove me wrong, but I'm thinking that mainboard space is pretty tight already.

3. I tested out Vengeful Pharoah a while back before Priest. It wasn't lacklustre, but it wasn't great either due to it's lack of synergy with Bridges.
I had quite a few games where I had Pharoah in the yard, where I had opponents attack me repeatedly to kill your bridges turn after turn, making your chances of hitting a bridge and keeping it long enough to combo out very difficult.
Goblins, a deck we really shouldn't lose to often, managed to do this to me effectively. Poor SB choice you say, I WAS testing it I say. LOL.
My end thought was to cut it and never look at it again. That said, now that Priest is a thing I'll give it another look as a SB option.

[Michael Keller]

I'm even seeing Miracles dropping Rest in Peace in favor of Priests. I just think against the decks you really need him, he shines so well without having to open with Contagion - which will nuke your Bridges, too.

I would gladly sacrifice my Bridges to kill a Priest and give me a chance to win via attack or Flayer. If that's the price I have to pay to not concede, sign me up.

[Sovelis]

1. Force = yes. I haven't been running Manaless for some time, but I can't see myself running anything but the blue version after running it exclusively for about 3 months. It's just the most likely version to win post-board in my mind, but I don't think it's as good in game1 compared to a fearless approach.
Going the full 4 Force is definitely worth it IMO.


3. I tested out Vengeful Pharoah a while back before Priest. It wasn't lacklustre, but it wasn't great either due to it's lack of synergy with Bridges...
My end thought was to cut it and never look at it again. That said, now that Priest is a thing I'll give it another look as a SB option.

Agree with both of these although I think I liked Vengeful Pharoah even less. For arguments sake, I'm going to highlight the card out of Death and Taxes as it's (probably) the most common place to expect Priest. If you can "get them" and kill a Containment Priest by mise-ing it off of a street wraith from dredge or phantasmagorian from hand in combat, sure it seems good and well worth the loss of a bridge or two, but not incredibly reliable. Once known, the pharoah can be played around by just attacking with other creatures leaving the priest back. I would treat Priest just like a RiP and try to counter it with FoW/ Shoal or kill with Contagion. The argument against this is Thalia. Im willing to accept the losses if they get both Thalia and Containment Priest, in that order, and me without a counterspell. Admittedly, my recent sample sizes are not incredibly large but I've found both the afformented creatures individually very beatable.

[Sovelis]

After rereading some of the previous comments, Phaorah does have its merits. The surprise factor when you do get them is not nothing. Also, even if it increases percentage points in a matchup by just a very very very small margin, it is still an increase. I still think I would want the 4 Contagion and 4 Disrupting Shoal before the first Pharoah.

If not running the blue version, you have a few more slots to work with and can more easily fit some number of Phaorah in the 75.

[Echelon]

If not running the blue version, you have a few more slots to work with and can more easily fit some number of Phaorah in the 75.

This :smile:. With that being said, I don't mind seeing a Thalia on the field. The beauty of this deck is that you don't necessarily need your spells to get the job done. The Priest, on the other hand, is a different beast entirely.

And concerning Bridges, well, the same argument applies there. If killing your Bridges frees your spells, that's fine. Heck, it's the reason why I run a Progenitus in my 60. Even without any Bridges, it makes it safe to flip the library and lets me use Ichorids/Nether Shadows/Narcomoebas to combo off instead of the zombie tokens.

[Michael Keller]

There is actually a stark contrast between Containment Priest and Rest in Peace. At a glance, the two are congruent in that they both equally shut down any creatures coming out of your graveyard. However, Containment Priest suffers the problem of being much easier to deal with and does not exile your entire graveyard upon hitting the battlefield or exiling any future cards that hit your graveyard once dredged. This keeps us involved in the game, and any suitable answer for a creature card that is becoming more ubiquitous in control decks' sideboards should not be underestimated.

If you're running the blue version of this deck, you need four Forces and four Shoals; that's the whole purpose of playing blue to begin with. Priest conveniently costs two to play, so Force and Shoal have a legitimate chance at countering this spell before it resolves as the counter package was tailored to stop Rest in Peace to begin with. Consider now that you have eight direct ways of stopping it from entering the battlefield. Adding in Contagion and Vengeful Pharaoh gives the deck another angle of defense to kill it once it enters the battlefield. I agree with the above analysis that you really need to have at least some number of Contagions and Pharaohs mixed together to combat Priest out of the sideboard, but I would lean towards three or four Contagion and two or three Pharaohs at most as a surprise removal piece from Phantasmagorian.

Remember, the dynamic involved here is kind of similar to Contagion as it pertains to Pharaoh in that you need to draw a Contagion to be able to cast it. This is the same thing with Pharaoh - you'd prefer to have it in your hand. Contagion also requires another card to exile, while the Pharaoh would prefer to use Phantasmagorian as a surprise outlet. There are intricacies involved though that make Pharaoh a more dangerous card to opponents than Contagion - notably, the surprise factor with Phantasmagorian and the lack of interaction and inability to be countered. And even if an opponent rams creatures into the Pharaoh(s), they're dying, and keeping you alive to find the answers you need in time to stabilize. Contagion only operates from your hand and if it's drawn. The Pharaoh has applicability in both zones with the added dynamic with Phantasmagorian being a key bonus.

If we're reaching the point (and it's extremely unlikely it will ever happen) that the omnipresence of Vengeful Pharaoh makes a dredged Phantasmagorian that much more dangerous because of what could be in your hand enough to stave off an attack, that would be awesome.

Bottom line: If the card can legitimately stave off an attack if it is present in a graveyard pre-combat, then your giving yourself a chance to draw into Contagion(s) or counters to protect a Contagion to try and win. Now that Priest is everywhere, this card and Contagion got a whole lot better.

[Daize]

Way too many ifs and whens, dude. I know it's uncounterable, but it's also way too situational. If you're struggling with specifically Containment Priest, then I'd probably get Sickening Shoals besides Contagion instead...

[Michael Keller]

What sense does it make to play Sickening Shoal over Contagion against Priest when both kill Priest on the spot except one can diversify its targets while the other cannot?

Also, I find the ability to cycle Street Wraith into a Pharaoh or Phantasmagorian dumping a Pharaoh far less situational than hoping to draw removal or a counter in your opening hand. You don't even have the option to truly mulligan and these two common scenarios seem far more likely to occur than simply relying on your draw to save you.

This is used to augment the removal and counters, not nudge them out.

[Daize]

I see your point, I said besides though :-). I just find it clunky, but I'd love to hear results :-)

[slave]

Containment Priest suffers the problem of being much easier to deal with and does not exile your entire graveyard upon hitting the battlefield or exiling any future cards that hit your graveyard once dredged.
....
the surprise factor with Phantasmagorian and the lack of interaction and inability to be countered. And even if an opponent rams creatures into the Pharaoh(s), they're dying, and keeping you alive to find the answers you need in time to stabilize.

If we're reaching the point (and it's extremely unlikely it will ever happen) that the omnipresence of Vengeful Pharaoh makes a dredged Phantasmagorian that much more dangerous because of what could be in your hand enough to stave off an attack, that would be awesome.
Bottom line: If the card can legitimately stave off an attack if it is present in a graveyard pre-combat, then your giving yourself a chance to draw into Contagion(s) or counters to protect a Contagion to try and win. Now that Priest is everywhere, this card and Contagion got a whole lot better.
This was the pretty much the way I played it when I was testing it > Phantasmagorian trickery, dump Vengeful Pharoah when it suited me, kill something, and on the next turn I had the option of either dredging it into the yard again or drawing it instead to avoid killing any bridges I might somehow get into the yard.
Most of the time, I dredged, as it was the obvious play, but whilst I genuinely like the card in casual games, it's non-synergy was a deal breaker in the RiP-heavy era a year ago.

I DID find it really good at slowing opponents just routinely attacking with Tarmogoyf. That said, due to exling bridges, you're almost doomed to be playing out a grindy game I found out in the short time I tested it. I decked myself a few times from memory, due to being unable to reach 3 creatures for Dread Return.
Given Containment Priest presents a different challenge to Rest In Peace, I think the game has changed somewhat, as Pharoah suddenly becomes more useful and less marginal. I own 2 or 3 from memory, so I'm gonna suit it up next time I take out Blue-Manaless. Let youse know how I go.

[Michael Keller]

This was the pretty much the way I played it when I was testing it > Phantasmagorian trickery, dump Vengeful Pharoah when it suited me, kill something, and on the next turn I had the option of either dredging it into the yard again or drawing it instead to avoid killing any bridges I might somehow get into the yard.
Most of the time, I dredged, as it was the obvious play, but whilst I genuinely like the card in casual games, it's non-synergy was a deal breaker in the RiP-heavy era a year ago.

I DID find it really good at slowing opponents just routinely attacking with Tarmogoyf. That said, due to exling bridges, you're almost doomed to be playing out a grindy game I found out in the short time I tested it. I decked myself a few times from memory, due to being unable to reach 3 creatures for Dread Return.
Given Containment Priest presents a different challenge to Rest In Peace, I think the game has changed somewhat, as Pharoah suddenly becomes more useful and less marginal. I own 2 or 3 from memory, so I'm gonna suit it up next time I take out Blue-Manaless. Let youse know how I go.

Exactly. I think in Legacy right now at this moment with Containment Priest everywhere, Vengeful Pharaoh is incredibly good. Like I said, look at some winning lists and development in other boards. People are genuinely dumping Rest in Peace (or redundant copies of it) over Priest(s).

We still have counters for it regardless, but this surprise, non-interactive form of removal is legitimate against an opponent confident in protecting his or her creature with counters.

[Michael Keller]

Cleaned up tonight with this list:

4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [B] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [DKA] Flayer of the Hatebound
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
3 [AP] Whirlpool Rider
3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [AL] Force of Will

SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
SB: 3 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 2 [THS] Ashen Rider

Match-ups:

R1: 2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
R2: 2-1 vs. Shardless BUG
R3: 2-0 vs. 4c Counterbalance
R4: 2-1 vs Jund
R5: 0-2 vs TES
R6: 2-0 vs Burn
R7: 2-1 vs Rock
R8: 2-0 vs OmniTell
R9: 2-0 vs Belcher

[Mr. Froggy]

Damn! Report?

[Daize]

Congrats :-) I wish there were legacy tourneys as often around here.

[Final Fortune]

So what happens when opponents aren't completely stupid and just don't attack you with their Containment Priest either after you've Dredged Vengeful Pharaoh into your graveyard or revealed it in your 2nd game and lost? I think the rise of Containment Priest is fucking awesome, you can just put 4 Contagion and Sickening Shoal in your SB and actually have a fighting chance vs decks with White even if you don't want to play the blue MD - this card being good against Reanimator is like the best thing that has ever happened to us.

[Michael Keller]

I think we covered this before.

I wouldn't expect someone to ram Priest in with a Pharaoh present. However, the ability to dump him or dredge into him to surprise an opponent is definitely a worthwhile option that avoids interaction.

You could run whatever works for you, Shoals or Contagion works fine. I just see a lot of potential in the card and surprised several opponents with it already.

[ntropy]

I went 3-1 with this list tonight:

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

4 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence
2 Crumble
1 Bayou
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest


I lost round 1 vs Infect - Won game 1 easy, awkward hand game 2 went nowhere, and game 3 he mulled to 5, and I stripped his hand with Unmask and Therapy, but he slammed a RIP off the top. In retrospect, I should not have conceded. I think I had the win on the board, but it caught me off guard out of a UG deck and I tilted.

Round 2 I beat UG homebrew ramp elves thing. Game 1 easy, game 2 through a turn 1 Scavenging Ooze.

Round 3 I beat Elves in 3 games.

Round 4 I beat MUD in 3 games.

Every match I boarded out 2 Dread Return and 2 Shambling Shell for 4 Unmask.

Won me some store credit towards those Forces!

Some Thoughts:

I came prepared for RIP, Leyline, and Cage. I wanted Contagion/Sickening Shoal all night, but I won those games anyways.

This sideboard is hard.

I love Unmask.

I'm contemplating running 2 Fetchlands main. They are functionally Dryad Arbor 5 and 6, and it frees up 2 more SB slots to diversify my answers. I don't really like the blue version, though I trust you all that it is better.

I like the version without a combo finish, because they don't know that.

Vengeful Pharoah is cool tech. I will be trying it out!

The new Primer is fantastic!

This was my first tournament with this deck (I've been jamming Loam-Pox) It will not be my last.

[Echelon]

Interesting build. Though, you could still switch dredger number 16 for a Flayer of the Hatebound. Even if you don't use it to kill them on the spot, the recurring Ichorids either clear the way for more beats or (more likely) just burn your opponent where he stands in a couple of turns. It lets you circumvent tricky board states and enables sudden blow-outs when you get to cast a second DR on a Golgari Grave-Troll.

I wonder though, would it not be better to run regular Forests over Dryad Arbor? Since Dryad Arbor has summoning sickness, can be Bolted/Plowed/Wastelanded? And after boarding you still only have 7 Forest in your deck, at best. That's far too few to reliably cast Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim/Crumble.

[ntropy]

You're probably right about slotting in a Flayer.

There was a great moment last night where MD Dryad Arbor allowed me to cast Therapy, Unmask, and Dread Return through Thorn of Amethyst.

[slave]

Cleaned up tonight with this list:

1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
SB: 3 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 2 [THS] Ashen Rider

The main is pretty much expected except Inkwell. How was it?
Was the lack of black in the cost ever a problem? I would have expected a Black/Blue costed creature given your thoughts on the Mimeoplasm. :wink:

I'd like to ask about your side. How was Pharaoh, and which decks did you side it in for?
(I personally run some Mindbreak Trap for combo in this space)

[BJeagle]

Played with 2 friends(D&T and MUD) last night ant tried "the blue version" for the first time, list below.
Countering RIP, Thalia, Priest, Golum, Chalice... and from this moment, I will always play with blue.
Notised that a Narcomoeba in hand can be a good thing.

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Serra Avatar

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will

---
Sideboard against D&T

-3 Balustrade Spy
-1 Serra Avatar
-4 Chancellor of the Annex
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Serra Avatar
-1 Phantasmagorian

+4 Disrupting Shoal
+4 Whirlpool Rider
+4 Force of Will

---

[slave]

Okay so I thought I'd take Blue-Manaless out for another stroll.
Keen to try out Pharoah again, so I included a few in the side for an answer to Priest etc.

Pretty standard list....
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [B] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [DKA] Flayer of the Hatebound
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [AP] Whirlpool Rider
3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [AL] Force of Will

SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
SB: 2 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
I decided I wanted to keep an answer to Storm c/o Traps, so I dropped Ashen Riders for Pharaohs. Show has been lying low lately, so I didn't think it would be a big deal.
Probably not a great call, but this was just a meet at the local, not a big tourney or anything.

I went 4-1
RUG (Tarmogoyf, Delver, Mongoose) 2-1
High Tide 2-0
RW Burn 2-0 (he was playing a unique burn-deck with Stoneforge Mystic, Luminarch Ascension & some swords)
BGr Nic-Fit 2-1 (cabal therapy war :laugh:)
Ad-Nauseum Storm 0-2 c/o Surgical Extraction & Targetted discard multiple times.

I had a pretty lucky night getting counter in hand. In the last match against Ad Nauseum I copped terrible opening hands. That said he got nuts-hands so I don't think I would've won anyway.

I sided in Pharoah for RUG to slow down his Goyfs, but chose not to for the other games. It worked once killing a Goyf, but after that he was wise to it.

[hellhound]

I've been testing a lot this week end with manaless.

I've played this:

1 flayer
3 whirlpool rider
4 serum powder
4 phanstamagorian
4 stimp
4 GGT
4 thug
4 narco
4 bridge
4 ichorids
4 shadow
4 wraith
4 probes
4 therapy
4 dreturn
4 fows

Side
2 ashen rider
4 faerie
3 contagion
2 pharaoh
4 shoal U

I saw during last weeks that many times that I opened 7s that could be keepable (because had dredgers) but would do nothing except DDD. Against fair decks this could be enough, but when you face combo decks or really fast ones this isn't enough.
So I thought to introduce serum powders.
I chose to remove 1 "frex slot" like inkwell leviathan and then the 3 shells since serums should also act like a dredger allowing you to mull for free if searching for dredgers.

I tested against ANT, UW golddigger, 12 post, reanimator, WRpainter and LEDdredge. I know it's a bit warped meta. :cool:

Blue shell with fows MD was great due to the tempo that let you gain against decks that can run you on g1 -ANT, painter and reanimator, also pretty good against those who can blow you in g1 -renimator for elesh norn, LEDdredge flawless starts and posts with crop4bojuka

I won 90% of the games I used powders, half of them I would have lost keeping the original hand. Serum killed me just one time due to exiling flayer against painter and he landed a topdecked ensnaring bridge at 2 life points during a preside game. Seems that powders could be a powerful inclusion to the deck.

I'm not totally sold on the SB inclusions. Pharaoh feels like a one-trick-pony and after that just stalls the game (and many times not so well, i.e. it won't stops elves alphastrike). Also the second ashen rider feels awkward. Probably would be better to use that slot for a 6th creature removal or a antimill card like progenitus.

my2cents

[slave]

Pharaoh feels like a one-trick-pony and after that just stalls the game (and many times not so well, i.e. it won't stops elves alphastrike). Also the second ashen rider feels awkward. Probably would be better to use that slot for a 6th creature removal or a antimill card like progenitus.
Yeah that was my thought on Pharoah too. Kinda nice to test it out though, I've been a bit lazy with manaless for a while.
IMHO, I don't think Progenitus is what we need unless Balustrade Spy is being talked about.

Being honest, if I was going to include a niche-creature in the main that works in the blue shell, my first thought would be cards like Child of Alara for destruction & Dragonlord Silumgar for thieving (and sacrificing later), maybe even Ruthless Deathfang in UB.
One I'm interested in is Vela the Night-Clad, to see if it might be a blue-shell option to replace Flayer of the Hatebound and up that blue-count.
It doesn't have the raw power of Flayer for a combo-turn kill, so my immediate thought is a massive nope!, but the intimidate option might be useful.
I'll see how it tests out.... anyone else tried this card before?
I dunno... I'm kinda tempted to go with a single Sire of Insanity in the main just to give the competitive people fits.

I've noticed a lot of you running blue are running with 3 Whirlpool Rider's, rather than a full 4.
I've been finding that I quite often need a full set postboard, as I quite often end up exiling a Rider for counter in game 2 and 3.
Of those of you running with 3, have you ever (or often) had issues with running less than a full 4? :eyebrow:

[hellhound]

Yeah that was my thought on Pharoah too. Kinda nice to test it out though, I've been a bit lazy with manaless for a while.
IMHO, I don't think Progenitus is what we need unless Balustrade Spy is being talked about.

Being honest, if I was going to include a niche-creature in the main that works in the blue shell, my first thought would be cards like Child of Alara for destruction & Dragonlord Silumgar for thieving (and sacrificing later), maybe even Ruthless Deathfang in UB.
One I'm interested in is Vela the Night-Clad, to see if it might be a blue-shell option to replace Flayer of the Hatebound and up that blue-count.
It doesn't have the raw power of Flayer for a combo-turn kill, so my immediate thought is a massive nope!, but the intimidate option might be useful.
I'll see how it tests out.... anyone else tried this card before?
I dunno... I'm kinda tempted to go with a single Sire of Insanity in the main just to give the competitive people fits.

I've noticed a lot of you running blue are running with 3 Whirlpool Rider's, rather than a full 4.
I've been finding that I quite often need a full set postboard, as I quite often end up exiling a Rider for counter in game 2 and 3.
Of those of you running with 3, have you ever (or often) had issues with running less than a full 4? :eyebrow:

The 4th whirlpool deserves some testing, it could be a good choice. I m also considering reveillark to improve terminus' based MU (to return double troll if opponent terminus the board). I ll test it out and i ll let you know if it works out.

[Echelon]

The 4th whirlpool deserves some testing, it could be a good choice. I m also considering reveillark to improve terminus' based MU (to return double troll if opponent terminus the board). I ll test it out and i ll let you know if it works out.

Why the hell would you want to waste a DR on Reveillark? In MU's where you expect Terminus (or counters, spot removal or otherwise annoying crap), you Therapy your opponent before attempting to go off. If you get to the point where you can resolve a DR safely, just go for the win.

Otherwise they'll just Entreat the Angels and laugh their ass off at your silly Reveillark as they punch your lights out. It has no value in this deck whatsoever.

[hellhound]

Why the hell would you want to waste a DR on Reveillark? In MU's where you expect Terminus (or counters, spot removal or otherwise annoying crap), you Therapy your opponent before attempting to go off. If you get to the point where you can resolve a DR safely, just go for the win.

Otherwise they'll just Entreat the Angels and laugh their ass off at your silly Reveillark as they punch your lights out. It has no value in this deck whatsoever.

First therapy vs top + terminus is unuseful. Second of they're not dumbasses they'll let you solve dread return of flayer and then clean the board off top with the second return on stack after bridges solves, so you'll just get a single troll and nothing else that can be chumped ad infinitum. 2 of them are more likely to go for it.

That was a testing proposal which is always a constructive thing while your answer just denotes a brainfarted attitude.

You're welcome.

[Echelon]

Yet what you are describing is such an extreme corner case I wonder why you bother to bring it up. Consider how big a graveyard and how many resources you need to pull that off and so on and so on. You do not only need to be able to DR the Reveillark but also be able to threaten with the combo kill (since you're not looking to pull it off) either that turn or incredibly soon thereafter.

I appreciate the idea but doubt its potential.

And concerning a number of posts before this, I'll Lemnear this shit by stating the following:
Why bother with a DR target that does not help you win the game on the spot? Seriously, it's like the "It's big and green, can't we use it as a NO-target" bits in the Elves! section.

[hellhound]

Yet what you are describing is such an extreme corner case I wonder why you bother with the hassle. Consider how big a graveyard and how many resources you need to pull that off and so on and so on. You do not only need to be able to DR the Reveillark but also be able to threaten with the combo kill (since you're not looking to pull it off) either that turn or incredibly soon thereafter.

I appreciate the idea but doubt its potential.

Well 1 card in SB doesn't seems to me a big commitment of resources and top+terminus it's a real thing in miracles and golddigger MU. Those Decks are a big component of european meta. The fact that I really dont like it's that reveillark isn't black nor blue so it cant feed ichorid nor fows.

Another option could be reaching quote 3 or 4 ashen rider to improve the chances of havin it in hand vs s&t decks.

[slave]

The 4th whirlpool deserves some testing, it could be a good choice. I m also considering reveillark to improve terminus' based MU (to return double troll if opponent terminus the board). I ll test it out and i ll let you know if it works out.
I've almost always used the 4th Whirlpool Rider in the main. That chance of having to exile one is high enough that I want to be able to exile one without having to think about it.
I get a lot of Surgical Extraction around me, so quite often I lose GGT and have to slow dredge. When this happens, being able to find a Whirpool without going thru the whole deck feels important enough to me.


Why the hell would you want to waste a DR on Reveillark?
Yeah I tend to agree.
Is it worth a test? Yeah sure, why not.
But if Terminus/Entreat is giving you nightmares, I'd look no further than Iona, Shield of Emeria myself.
I used to run a single of the flying fuck-your-combo-bitch! a while back, but I had it used against me a few times too many to consider it main-deck material.

I'm currently looking for blue options to satisfy the blue shell, but if I wasn't, this fat bitch would be in my top3 of considerations for the sideboard-creature slots.
EDIT:
I'm currently trying really hard to find a good U/B option, but I can't seem to find anything better than good ole Inkwell Leviathan or Tidespout Tyrant.
I'm a BIG FAN of Tidespout, given we could bring him back and reject their everything. That's said, is it as good as Flayer?! I would say not quite, but it's debateable.....

[pandaman]

It would seem that if you wanted to play around Top into Terminus, Iona would be the best. Also applicable v OmniTell, Storm, Sneak 'n Show, Burn (if for some reason you can't be faster), and Wr Painter (name R and then counter RiP with no possibility of a Blast on the return of serve).

[Echelon]

That is indeed the other way you can go with sideboarding. Rather than trying to answer every problem your opponent can throw at you, try to reverse the rolls and stick a threat they can't answer so you're done after a single DR. It takes considerably less of a graveyard and resources to do so. To deal with anyDelver.dec, you could have a number of Inkwell Leviathan in your SB and so on. Come to think of it, it is a way of sideboarding that allows you to keep the deck as fast as possible while still bringing you in a position from where your opponent can't beat you.

On the other hand, it might be The Danger Of Cool Things talking. With such an approach, you'll again be defenseless vs. RiP & friends, apart from your MB counter package. Still, this deck is a high risk, high reward deck anyways, so there's that.

[Final Fortune]

Has any body found Vengeful Pharaoh useful in the MD at all for slowing down the opponent's clock while you slowly Dredge off of a Shambling Shell or Golgari Thug? I've been looking for a really generic creature to play in that slot that can't get countered like Shifting Wall, and considering it plausibly does something useful, if not really fucking annoying, while still being Ichorid food makes me a bit curious.

[jimmythegreek]

Playing manaless today, standard spy list. I will try to keep track of my matches and compose my results. If I can find a couple Pharohs I'll replace two chancellors with them MB.

[slave]

Has any body found Vengeful Pharaoh useful in the MD at all for slowing down the opponent's clock while you slowly Dredge off of a Shambling Shell or Golgari Thug? I've been looking for a really generic creature to play in that slot that can't get countered like Shifting Wall, and considering it plausibly does something useful, if not really fucking annoying, while still being Ichorid food makes me a bit curious.

Yeah I'm curious too.
The whole reliance of the deck on bridges makes me wonder if a version without Bridges being necessary to win, is even possible.

[Daize]

What, whole reliance? You can just beat with Ichorids, Narcos, use dread return on e.g. Troll/Flayer/Chancellor without bridges...

[jimmythegreek]

Got second place losing to miracles in the finals today, twenty man tournament, spy list.

Matches as follow,

2-1 jund
0-2 elves
2-0 miracles
2-1 burn
2-0 bug delver
Semis:
2-0 burn
Finals:
1-2 miracles

Deck ran hot today. Couldnt find the pharohs to test unfortunately. Losses in the finals were from contaiment priest and rip, glad to answer any questions on todays matches.

[Echelon]

Yeah I'm curious too.
The whole reliance of the deck on bridges makes me wonder if a version without Bridges being necessary to win, is even possible.

If you honestly believe the Bridges are a necessity, you're playing the deck horribly wrong or haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing. This deck leans on Ichorid/Nether Shadow more than anything else. Your Bridges are mostly bargaining chips to get your opponent to make bad blocks/waste cards killing his own creatures. Getting tokens from a Bridge, let alone multiple, is just frosting on the cake.

[Mr. Froggy]

If you honestly believe the Bridges are a necessity, you're playing the deck horribly wrong or haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing. This deck leans on Ichorid/Nether Shadow more than anything else. Your Bridges are mostly bargaining chips to get your opponent to make bad blocks/waste cards killing his own creatures. Getting tokens from a Bridge, let alone multiple, is just frosting on the cake.

I think the same thing as you. I feel this deck relies a whole lot less on Bridges than LEDDredge.

[slave]

If you honestly believe the Bridges are a necessity, you're playing the deck horribly wrong or haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing.
LOL. That's a bit harsh isn't it? :eyebrow:
Feel free to test your theory out. Omit Bridges from the main and see where your win% goes.

Anyways;
What I was talking about is speed, in regards to the *reliance* on bridges, to beat fast opponents in Legacy.
Sorry if I didn't type it in exactly that wording. The point is, without Bridges in the yard, you need quite a lot to go your way in order to beat someone playing a fast deck. That's not going to happen regularly in a deck where we can't mulligan or tutor, and where we don't run any form of filter.
My reason for believing this is based on experience. I've been playing Manaless and LED-Dredge for years.

My thoughts on Pharaoh is from the perspective of having tested it myself on numerous occasions in tourney and casual settings, and so far I see few reasons to include Pharaoh in the main given the anti-synergy with Bridges. From the side is another story.
A version of Manaless with Pharaoh and no Bridges might be a possibility, but I would have to assume it would be even more glass-cannon than Manaless already is.

[VanHendrix]

Got second place losing to miracles in the finals today, twenty man tournament, spy list.

Matches as follow,

2-1 jund
0-2 elves
2-0 miracles
2-1 burn
2-0 bug delver
Semis:
2-0 burn
Finals:
1-2 miracles

Deck ran hot today. Couldnt find the pharohs to test unfortunately. Losses in the finals were from contaiment priest and rip, glad to answer any questions on todays matches.

Which list did you used bro? Congrats for the great result :laugh:

[jimmythegreek]

LOL. That's a bit harsh isn't it? :eyebrow:
Feel free to test your theory out. Omit Bridges from the main and see where your win% goes.

Anyways;
What I was talking about is speed, in regards to the *reliance* on bridges, to beat fast opponents in Legacy.
Sorry if I didn't type it in exactly that wording. The point is, without Bridges in the yard, you need quite a lot to go your way in order to beat someone playing a fast deck. That's not going to happen regularly in a deck where we can't mulligan or tutor, and where we don't run any form of filter.
My reason for believing this is based on experience. I've been playing Manaless and LED-Dredge for years.

My thoughts on Pharaoh is from the perspective of having tested it myself on numerous occasions in tourney and casual settings, and so far I see few reasons to include Pharaoh in the main given the anti-synergy with Bridges. From the side is another story.
A version of Manaless with Pharaoh and no Bridges might be a possibility, but I would have to assume it would be even more glass-cannon than Manaless already is.
Yup. This deck really doesn't opperate without bridge. I would say half my wins are due to dread returning a spy, without bridge the first dread return gets countered and then what?? Bridge pretty much negates a lot of blue decks by saying" I hope you have more than just one counter, other wise you lose". The tokens from bridge provide so much value when your yard contains therapys and dread returns. Like slave said, play without bridge and see what happens.

[Mr. Froggy]

Yup. This deck really doesn't opperate without bridge. I would say half my wins are due to dread returning a spy, without bridge the first dread return gets countered and then what?? Bridge pretty much negates a lot of blue decks by saying" I hope you have more than just one counter, other wise you lose". The tokens from bridge provide so much value when your yard contains therapys and dread returns. Like slave said, play without bridge and see what happens.

I don't think he meant Bridge is useless, its that Manaless doesn't need to rely on them as much as LEDDredge. I've had my Bridges removed and Extirpated often and it never really hurt. I was way more pissed when my opponent would go for Ichorid and co.

[AlmostGrown]

Is the general consensus now that the Blue version is the best?

[Doishy]

Is the general consensus now that the Blue version is the best?

From many people yes, but it has yet to show itself in any good large tournament placings as so far I am aware.

[jimmythegreek]

Is the general consensus now that the Blue version is the best?

Tough to say. Yes, the blue version can get you out of some sticky situations when fighting hate. I also believe people havnt really adjusted to the fact that manaless now plays counters which can totally catch our opponents off guard, not to mention not everyone has play tested a fair amount against the deck. Ive had some recent success with the balustrade spy version and just comboing off through a counters or two. I feel hate at the moment is pretty low, maybe two pieces in some boards.....they hace to find it remember. The spy version is attractive at the moment and a good amount of my wins have come from the combo. Although, in the finals last weekend against miracles games 2 and 3 I was blown out by priest and rip. Question: is it possible to play spy version game one and then board in whirlpool and counter package for game two?

[Daize]

What I would like to know, is whether the spy version is really that much quicker than the blue version.

[VanHendrix]

What I would like to know, is whether the spy version is really that much quicker than the blue version.

The blue version can be as quick as the spy one. 3 draws may be enough to win the game, and whirpool rider usualy gets more. Sometimes you'll have no cards in hand due to a Phantasmagorian discard or whatever. Thats why i use Spinx of Lost Truths!

[BJeagle]

Tough to say. Yes, the blue version can get you out of some sticky situations when fighting hate. I also believe people havnt really adjusted to the fact that manaless now plays counters which can totally catch our opponents off guard, not to mention not everyone has play tested a fair amount against the deck. Ive had some recent success with the balustrade spy version and just comboing off through a counters or two. I feel hate at the moment is pretty low, maybe two pieces in some boards.....they hace to find it remember. The spy version is attractive at the moment and a good amount of my wins have come from the combo. Although, in the finals last weekend against miracles games 2 and 3 I was blown out by priest and rip. Question: is it possible to play spy version game one and then board in whirlpool and counter package for game two?

I play the spy version with a blue sideboard and it works fine. Some time i skip the "the blue sb" game 2(after i won game1 ) and keep the surpice for the game 3.
Heres my list.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Serra Avatar
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
44 creatures

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
16 other spells

Sideboard
3 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will

[jimmythegreek]

I play the spy version with a blue sideboard and it works fine. Some time i skip the "the blue sb" game 2(after i won game1 ) and keep the surpice for the game 3.
Heres my list.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Serra Avatar
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
44 creatures

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
16 other spells

Sideboard
3 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will

Thank you for the list. I assume the chancellors, serra avatar and spys come out for the forces and whirlpool riders. Depending on the match up you then must shave a few things for the shoals; wondering whats your strategy? Hows the serra avatar been working, I assume theres a fair amount of snt in your meta? Im gonna play manaless at scg worcester next weekend, wondering if its worth it to -1 spy and +1 progenitus?

[slave]

Is the general consensus now that the Blue version is the best?
Better than Green definitely, but blue the best? It's my preference for sure, but I'm with you Jimmythegreek, it's a tough call to make.

I don't think Spy is necessarily faster, but seems to have more potential for it, by being able to run both Probes and Chancellor's.


Question: is it possible to play spy version game one and then board in whirlpool and counter package for game two?
Interesting thought.
I like the surprise factor > has it worked well for you BJeagle?
Seeing as you're running such an inflexible side, have you missed not running any of the usual suspects like Mindbreak Traps, Surgical Extractions, Faerie Macabre's etc.?

[Daize]

You can easily run Probes and Chancellors in the blue version.

[BJeagle]

Better than Green definitely, but blue the best? It's my preference for sure, but I'm with you Jimmythegreek, it's a tough call to make.

I don't think Spy is necessarily faster, but seems to have more potential for it, by being able to run both Probes and Chancellor's.


Interesting thought.
I like the surprise factor > has it worked well for you BJeagle?
Seeing as you're running such an inflexible side, have you missed not running any of the usual suspects like Mindbreak Traps, Surgical Extractions, Faerie Macabre's etc.?

Im playing in a quite small legacygroup at the moment, no more surprises... Hehe. But it worked well the first local turnanent. My sb is allin to the "Red graveyards hate" thinking of changing the contagion for mindbreaktraps for the storm games....

[jimmythegreek]

So ill be attending scg worcester and would enjoy hearing peoples predictions of the meta along with help to devise a sideboard based on these predictions. Im on the spy list, so no counter spells here. I also feel that there will be a fair number of containment priests, actually good for us considering we run 3-4 contagion. Specifically, what cards can we bring in against omni show? Overall I feel dredge has been a bit forgotten by our foes and its time for the boogey-man to do its thing.

[Bane of the Living]

Cleaned up tonight with this list:

4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [B] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [DKA] Flayer of the Hatebound
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
3 [AP] Whirlpool Rider
3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [AL] Force of Will

SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
SB: 3 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 2 [THS] Ashen Rider

Match-ups:

R1: 2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
R2: 2-1 vs. Shardless BUG
R3: 2-0 vs. 4c Counterbalance
R4: 2-1 vs Jund
R5: 0-2 vs TES
R6: 2-0 vs Burn
R7: 2-1 vs Rock
R8: 2-0 vs OmniTell
R9: 2-0 vs Belcher

Hollywood, what's up?

I could ask anyone but I want your opinion since you played through the golden age like myself; why manaless? What gains do you see by playing without lands and basically, without blue. Does the strategy make your bad matchups better?

I have not played Dredge since Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman were both printed. What is the best way to beat the strategies?

*BTW still have a foil Dakmor Salvage you signed for me back forever ago.

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood, what's up?

I could ask anyone but I want your opinion since you played through the golden age like myself; why manaless? What gains do you see by playing without lands and basically, without blue. Does the strategy make your bad matchups better?

I have not played Dredge since Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman were both printed. What is the best way to beat the strategies?

*BTW still have a foil Dakmor Salvage you signed for me back forever ago.

Hey, long time :)

I haven't really mentioned it since this last event, but I've officially retired from competitive Magic play. Magic doesn't interest me anymore at all really and I'm just moving on to other things in my life. Zero interest in coming back and I feel like I've contributed all that I can to the game. It's not one of those things you openly advertise, because it's really just a game. But, since I vested over two-thirds of my life into the game and tried to make a difference in the way the game is played, Manaless just happened to be a deck that I picked up in the tail-end of my playing days and did really well with it. It was more the less a deck that deviated from the norm and gave me a chance to try something different. If that's your cup of tea, go for it.

[jimmythegreek]

Hey, long time :)

I haven't really mentioned it since this last event, but I've officially retired from competitive Magic play. Magic doesn't interest me anymore at all really and I'm just moving on to other things in my life. Zero interest in coming back and I feel like I've contributed all that I can to the game. It's not one of those things you openly advertise, because it's really just a game. But, since I vested over two-thirds of my life into the game and tried to make a difference in the way the game is played, Manaless just happened to be a deck that I picked up in the tail-end of my playing days and did really well with it. It was more the less a deck that deviated from the norm and gave me a chance to try something different. If that's your cup of tee, go for it.

First off, I would like to thank you for all your work regarding the new primer and your innovations (along with others) within the dredge arcetype. Change is the only constant and change is a positive thing, sometimes we gotta do what just feels right and taking a step back from something you love takes real courage. Your sentiments about manaless "deviating from the norm" felt spot on.........win, lose or draw the deck just does stuff in a way that not only negates blue (unapologetically despise blue) strategies but leaves our opponents with half a deck of dead cards under their noses. Monsters, more monsters....that's manaless dredge. Thanks, bona fortunae!

p.s. Hollywood, if you were to play this weekend at scg Worcester and you were to play a spy list what would your sideboard look like?

[P-E]

Good retreat so Mr Keller
Thanks for your passion to make this thread living. It was always a pleasure to read manaless things when on bus to work.:tongue:

[AlmostGrown]

Wow. I may not post much, but I lurk a whole hell of a lot. It truly is a sight to behold, one of this forum's greats is moving on for greener pastures. Hollywood, you don't know me but I recognize your name. On behalf of all the other lurkers - more importantly, all the people who will come to this thread for help - thank you for everything!

About SCG Worcester - I think the metagame has shifted enough for Dredge to make a top 8! Go for it!

[jimmythegreek]

Finished 5-4 losing my win and in for day 2 against miracles. Started the day 0-2 so I had to crawl back to have a chance for day 2. Losses were to elves twice, a deck that hardcasted elesh norn turn three and miracles. I beat led dredge, reanimator, affinity, ru delver and burn. Manaless is well positioned and my feeling/observations from this weekend was that we absolutely have game against miracles and priest is being played in BIG numbers. Contagion was the only sideboard card I really needed or saw. Super shitty report, sorry. Any questions I will gladly answer.

[JPoJohnson]

Why would you say Manaless is well positioned when there is so much gravehate right now (people think that it somehow counters DTT).

[jimmythegreek]

Containment priest is on the rise imo. This is good, contagion works so proper. There wasnt alot of hate honestly, public enemy being cage and im excited to try the blue version. I love the speed of spy but im very interested in the velocity between the two.

[slave]

Containment priest is on the rise imo. This is good, contagion works so proper. There wasnt alot of hate honestly, public enemy being cage and im excited to try the blue version. I love the speed of spy but im very interested in the velocity between the two.
Yeah, Priest made a few appearances last night at the local, just a regular night playing for boosters.
13 players turned up, went 3-2. Not a very good turn out... think the scene is fizzling around me.:confused:

Played and won against D&T, Affinity, Manaless Mirror! (Griselbrand-Green), then lost against another D&T and WB Stoneblade.
The losses were all about their discard killing my discard outlet. The mirror was comical... both players using therapy on themselves. Ha!
Counter worked well early in the night (3-0), but Í didn't get it when I needed it in the last two games (which I lost quickly to maindecked gravehate)

I played this;
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Whirlpool Rider
SIDE
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Contagion
4x Disrupting Shoal
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
3x Mindbreak Trap

[Echelon]

The Manaless mirror seems so silly to me. Whoever goes second is most likely to win, lol.

[jimmythegreek]

Yeah, Priest made a few appearances last night at the local, just a regular night playing for boosters.
13 players turned up, went 3-2. Not a very good turn out... think the scene is fizzling around me.:confused:

Played and won against D&T, Affinity, Manaless Mirror! (Griselbrand-Green), then lost against another D&T and WB Stoneblade.
The losses were all about their discard killing my discard outlet. The mirror was comical... both players using therapy on themselves. Ha!
Counter worked well early in the night (3-0), but Í didn't get it when I needed it in the last two games (which I lost quickly to maindecked gravehate)

I played this;
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Whirlpool Rider
SIDE
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Contagion
4x Disrupting Shoal
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
3x Mindbreak Trap
In your opinion how relevant was the blue package and would have the extra speed of spy made a difference in your matches.

[mistercakes]

In your opinion how relevant was the blue package and would have the extra speed of spy made a difference in your matches.

just wondering, since the manaless version was mostly for spy. might there be some merits to having some kind of board w/ land package? or some kind of transformational board? game 1 is mostly going to win.

that being said, what might be the best transformational boards? i'm not saying it's better, but maybe it's worth some testing, if the goal is not playing spy.

-rob


edit: You could consider running lands with painters grindstone? with 4 force and 4 shoal (painter makes shoal very good), you could have a viable non graveyard-deck based combo.

[slave]

In your opinion how relevant was the blue package and would have the extra speed of spy made a difference in your matches.
I don't find Spy to be *lightyears* faster than the blue. Both decks run Probe & Wraith afterall.
The blue package isn't lightyears ahead in terms of play either as in most game 1's you don't get any counter you can use.

In terms of how relevant the blue package is, it's a hard one to answer.
I've been rocking blue Manaless exclusively for a while now, and whilst it's my preferred option, the blue counter isn't enough to reliably win matches against concentrated, multiple and/or tutored hate. The whole party is all about Cabal Therapy with blue counter as backup until you combo out.
There are some nights where I've barely used counter all night, even when I've had it in my hand ready to go, as Cabal Therapy does all the heavy lifting. I tend to keep my counter for emergency use only BTW, think gravehate, combo blow-outs etc.
Yet there are other nights when counter has been very relevant and it's won me games I had no right to win, and many others where a counter in hand would have been handy.
The biggest weakness of running Force, is the same as that of Unmask, in that you really can't use it until you have a dredger in the yard already.

To me the main aspect of having blue counter is simply that it'll force your opponent to ask themselves, "Are they on Force?"
It's a real thing when someone plays their hand out a little more carefully (i.e. slowly), potentially opening them up to a therapy or three if they take a turn too long.
Then of course there's the whole argument about maindecking Force against Combo & Storm decks....:wink:
Relative to the matches I played on this occasion, I think I countered ~5 total. Spy's speed may have been relevant to net me an extra win here or there, but to honest I'm not sure it would have made any difference in the matches I got hated out in.

[Daize]

Blue version is definitely a bit less mindless. Drawing 4 with Whirlpool Rider because of a Phantasmagorian activation definitely needs to have you thinking. Worst case scenario, you'd have to cabal therapy yourself (if you find it). Yesterday I had a local event with 23 people, though I have to say the level wasn't that high. The usual suspects were there though, and I guess I'm one of them (ended 6th out of 23).

1st Round: Lands (0-2)
Match 1 (loss)
Didn's start with a FoW in my hand, but had a pretty fast start. He had a good start too, and in response to my turn 3 revived Flayer, he used Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm... nothing I can do against that.

Match 2 (loss)
SB: boarded out 1 nether shadow, 1 cabal therapy, 1 phantasmagorian for 3 Faerie Macabre
I started without any responses in hand (I guess it happens). Turn 2 Sphere of Resistance, Maze of Ith keeping my creatures from really harming him, turn 4 Marit Lage.

2nd Round: Burn (2-0)
Match 1 (win)
I starts with Chancellor (which is great against burn), but he rift bolts anyway. H e empties his hand and gets me to 5 pretty quickly, with a Searing Blaze and Price of Progress in hand, topdeck mode. I didn't have any accelerators, but Ichorid and some zombie tokens do it right.

Match 2 (win)
I think I sided out FoW and added Balustrade Spies.
He has an amazing start with 2 Goblin Guides, but I lay it on hard with Street Wraith helping the both of us (but me a bit more), reviving a Flayer without comboing, shooting him in the next morning (upkeep) with Ichorids.

3rd Round: Goblins (2-1)
Match 1
He has a good start with piledriver, I Cabal Therapy for Rabblemaster (!?), but he shows a hand of chiefs and whatnot. I have some blockers to prevent lethal, but he has a Legion Loyalist and I'm a goner.

Match 2
I side in an extra Chancellor for a.. phantasmagorian I think. Not sure what he'd bring in.
He has a great start, but I go for money and revive a 9/9 Golgari to go with my Ichorids. With 2 early Cabal Therapies I hit 2 Goblin Ringleaders, and with enough Nether Shadows, Troll, 2 Zombie tokens and 2 Ichorids he can't block it all.

Match 3
This was hilarious. I had a Chancellor in my hand, and it turned out he... kept a Wasteland as single land with Aether Vial. I saw his anguish when I showed the Chancellor, and opportunistically called "Aether Vial" for my T3 Cabal Therapy. He didn't 'topdeck' a land before that. So much speed lost, and I comboed off not long after that peacefully.

4th Round: America/Delver (2-0)
Match 1
Terrific hand with Street Wraith, Grave-troll, Phantasmagorian, Therapy, Probe. Turn 2 Cabal Therapy, he brainstorms his FoW away, and I combo off with Whirlpool Rider, done.

Match 2
SB: -3 Chancellors, +1 FoW, +2 Disrupting Shoal (vs. whatever hate he'd put in, or to prevent a Spell Pierce from coming through, or something)
Good hand with 2 FoW, Narcomoeba, Stinkweed Imp, whatnot. He has a shitty start with T1 ponder, T2 ponder, then had 2 delvers, 2 tarmo's and something else to show for my Cabal Therapy ("Spell Pierce"). Next turn he plays a Delver and a Tarmo, seeing a 2nd Cabal Therapy in my graveyard, but I combo off the turn after.



5th round: we decide on a draw. Red version Storm. (1-1)
Match 1: I see his hand with Probe, and strip 2 lotus petals the next turn, and a Seething Song. Not much he can do after that, and I take it home without hurdles.

Match 2: He comboes off T2, I don't have counters.

Match 3: He comboes off T2, I don't have counters :D.


T8!

6th Round: (#*$&#(*$&#(*$ again I face the lands player from round 1.
Match 1
He ended up above me, and makes me play first.
He has a good start, though I counter his Crop Rotation. I have a slow start, but see his Bojuka Bog. He thinks I can't kill him yet (apparently), so he hold on to it for another turn. However with 2 Ichorids, 2 zombie tokens, and reviving a Flayer, and sacrificing it for a Dread Return on Ichorid nets me enough damage.

Match 2
Board: +3 Faerie Macabre, +3 Balustrade Spy, -3 FoW, -3 Chancellors. Tried to go full combo.
No counters in hand, I have a great start, but he has Crop Rotation for Bog. I get set back so much, I can't do anything against his Marit Lage.

Match 3
Board: -3 Chancellors, -1 Phantasmagorian, -1 Cabal Therapy, +1 FoW, +1 Disrupting Shoal, +3 Faerie Macabre. The Faerie Macabres are clutch here to get rid of recurring lands, or if he dredges down a Bog to remove it. There are some things I _need_ to counter like Sphere of Resistance & Trinisphere, what the hell.

He has a T1 Sphere of Resistance I feel I need to counter with FoW. I'm set back too much, and he has a Tabernacle -_-.



Lands counters us so much!

[danpo]

Hi so I’ve had most of the ingredients for this deck laying around for awhile and Saturday I picked up $0.40 worth of Whirlpool Riders so what the hell. Took a random not-overly-tuned version to my usual Monday night 12-man (my friend who plays Leyline/Helm combo told me he wasn’t gonna make it this week, get there) and anyway here’s how that all went:

Well this is new and exciting and different (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Whirlpool Rider

Dredgers (14)
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

Free guys (12)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

Free draw (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sac outlets (8)
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Everything else (10)
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Contagion
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

R1 – Jason
I win the die roll and opt to draw first.
“Manaless dredge,” my opponent says.
“Why would you say that?” I ask.
…
Him: Urborg, go.
Me: Keep a grip with Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian, Street Wraith, four other cards. I draw and discard Phantasmagorian so I can swap it for Grave Troll on his end step and then start dredging via Street Wraith.
Him: Dark Depths, tap this and Urborg for Vampire Hexmage, go.
Me: Do oblivious dredgy things, turn cards face up, sit there, say go.
Him: Make this 20/20 and murder you?
Me, looking up from my not-close-to-an-instant-kill dredge pile: Oh, I guess that happens.

Game two:
Him: Leyline of the Void?
Me: Fuck.

…

R2 – George
I win the die roll and opt to draw first.
“Dredge,” my opponent says.
“Why does everyone think that,” I say.

The first few turns are not very eventful, I get Gitaxian Probed and turn lots of cards face up, and eventually my opponent Intuitions for 3x Omniscience and passes to me with Island up.
At this point I have three Therapies and a Bridge in my yard.
On my turn I put out Ichorid, dredge into a Narcomoeba and decide after attacking for 3 that now is a great time to shred his hand. He Brainstorms to hide Omniscience so my first Therapy is a whiff. I then take a Show and Tell and a Dig Through Time, leaving him with Ponder and Force.
I pass to him and he draws whatever half of the combo he hid with Brainstorm, Ponders into the other half, Show and Tells out Omniscience with Force of Will still in his hand. His Show and Tell gets me a 6/6 Grave Troll.
On my turn I get Ichorid again, smash for a lot and attempt to Dread Return a Flayer, which would be lethal except I forgot he could just cast Force of Will for free because he has Omniscience on board, so it is not meant to be. On his turn he Cunning Wishes for Firemind’s Foresight and I scoop.

Game two:
Him: Grafdigger’s Cage?
Me: Force of Will.
Him: Force back?
Me: *suicide*

Store: Power’s out, go home everyone, refunds for all.
Me: Yaaay.
Racer 5: I’m 7.5% alcohol.
Me: You’re delicious.

[Daize]

Hehe, it's very, very metagame dependent. If a lot of people are (still) packing Leyline of the Voids, just don't play it.

[jimmythegreek]

This deck is soooo good right now....no clue why more people arent playing it. Giant blue meta, cmon boys and girls get after it.

[Darklingske]

I still love the deck, but I don't play it atm despite being a blue meta. My meta is too combocentric. In general the decks you meet are: ANT, Infect, Miracles, D&T, Omnitell & Shardless BUG. Except for Miracles, these are not exactly the decks you like to meet.

[Rishadan]

How do y'all feel about the dragon spoiled from origins, Avaricious Dragon? Seems like a good dread return target that simply dredges like nobody's business.

[jimmythegreek]

How do y'all feel about the dragon spoiled from origins, Avaricious Dragon? Seems like a good dread return target that simply dredges like nobody's business.

Griselband can dredge for seven where dragon can only dredge six.....whether tthe life loss is relevant, it may be. I personally think if your gonna dread return it should ain on the spot ( see balustrade spy).

[Daize]

Sorry, but Avaricious Dragon seems pretty horrible. When you're at the point that you can resolve a Dread Return, it should be a game finisher on the spot, or worst case scenario, in the next turn. That dragon doesn't in any way assure that.

Also, did another run yesterday, and didn't go as well as hoped, 2-2.

2 Force of Will
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Balustrade Spy

Dredgers (14)
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

Free guys (12)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

Free draw (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sac outlets (8)
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Everything else (10)
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Chancellor of the Annex

Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Contagion
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Whirlpool Rider
3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Force of Will
1 Shambling Shell


Blue Green Black delver 2-0
Match 1
He starts, I have a pretty delicious hand of GGT, Street Wraith, combo out T3, Cabal Therapy for FoW -> Dread Return for Whirlpool Rider, without problems.
1-0

Match 2
+2 FoW +1 Whirlpool Rider +2 Disrupting Shoal
-1 Balustrade Spy -3 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: I wanted to have something against Surgical/Grafdigger's, and since I only have Gitaxian Probe to use for Disrupting Shoal, I only boarded in 2 of them. Chancellor seemed kind of meh here since the speed run isn't that much of importance.
I start, and I make a huge mistake. I started with Narco, FoW, 2x Street Wraith and GGT in my hand. In his EOT, I use Street Wraith and in response he targets it with Surgical. And I... FoW it. He Dazes happily and I realise I should have just used another Street Wraith in response. His face just turns terribly sad when I do it anyway, and win the game in T4. I got really lucky here considering the boarded in Flusterstorms, Spell Pierces, 2x Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical...
2-0


Burn 1-2
Match 1
I go down to 5 before I finish him off. I used my Street Wraith, but I held back on a Gitaxian Probe until the turn I thought I could finish him off.
1-0

Match 2
+1 Chancellor of the Annex +3 Balustrade Spy
-2 Whirlpool Rider -2 FoW
SB: I figured the race would be of importance here... not sure here. Let me know what you think.
He mulliganed to 5 (!), and started with 1 land. I had Chancellor in hand, so he couldn't do much for then. I had a really slow start too, but called Cabal Therapy wrongly and saw his Tormod's Crypt that he drew a turn later. He blew up my graveyard, and I couldn't recover :(.
1-1

Match 3
He was way too fast. Ouch. Usually a good matchup.
1-2

Storm 2-0
Match 1
First match, I tear his hand up with a T2 Cabal Therapy on Infernal Tutor.
1-0

Match 2
+1 Chancellor of the Annex +2 FoW
-1 Balustrade Spy, -1 Phantasmagorian, -1 Nether Shadow
I tear his hand apart with 2 Cabal Therapies on Infernal Tutor and Ad Nauseum.

Enchantress 0-2
Match 1
I get no dredgers in my hand, and decide to mulligan. He tears me apart on T4 with Living Wish --> Emrakul and some Cloud Faeries.

Match 2
+3 Disrupting Shoal +1 Whirlpool Rider, +2 FoW
-1 Balustrade Spy -3 Chancellor of the Annex -1 Nether Shadow -1 Cabal Therapy
SB: honestly my Chancellors aren't going to stop him. I need Therapy for a sac outlet, but I need to counter his plentiful hatenchantments more.
I would have had him in T3 after I FoWed a T2 Rest in Peace, but he slams down Elephant Grass and Leyline of Sanctity. WTF.

Oh well, can't have it all. 3/4 times made it into the top8 with this deck now (yesterday had only a top4 though, turned out 6th), not too bad.

[Echelon]

How do y'all feel about the dragon spoiled from origins, Avaricious Dragon? Seems like a good dread return target that simply dredges like nobody's business.

Balustrady Spy/Griselbrand/Whirlpool Rider flip your entire library, letting you win the game that same turn. The dragon doesn't even come close.

Nice variation on it's-big-and-green-so-can-we-Natural-Order-for-it though.

[slave]

Is this the one you're talking about?

Avaricious Dragon
2RR, Creature - Dragon, Flying
At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card.
At the beginning of your end step, discard your hand.


Balustrady Spy/Griselbrand/Whirlpool Rider flip your entire library, letting you win the game that same turn. The dragon doesn't even come close.
Agreed.

[jimmythegreek]

Taking the undead to an unknown/new meta tonight and hopefully bash some nerds with x/u whatever decks. Will post a mediocre report when possible.

[jimmythegreek]

Mediocre report as promised. Played standard spy list, 13 people, four rounds of magic.

Rnd 1 : Bye

Rnd 2 : omni-show 2-0
Game one got there with beats, a therapy hitting snt and a reanimated chancellor of the annex.
Game three got really lucky with the nuts draw containning troll, street wraith, phantasmagorian and I believe probe. Ended up dredging a ton along with therapiesx3 and some creatures completely stripping his hand.

Rnd 3 : Death blade 1-1
Played against my buddy and basically the games went super long due my bridges and dread returns being extracted. Both games I faced down two shamans and jitte.

Rnd 4 : Grixis control 2-0
Game one I therapied away bolt and forked bolt leaving him with a young p.mancer, beats got there.
Game two my opponent mulled to five looking for one of two cages from his board. Another fast start from me allowed for multiple therapies leaving him again with a lone youn pyromancer. The combination of probe and therapy lead to ridiculously one sided games usually ending with too many threats on my side and no way for the opponent to answer all of them. Ended up in first good for $60 credit, deck is definetly running hot right now.

[ntropy]

just wondering, since the manaless version was mostly for spy. might there be some merits to having some kind of board w/ land package? or some kind of transformational board? game 1 is mostly going to win.

that being said, what might be the best transformational boards? i'm not saying it's better, but maybe it's worth some testing, if the goal is not playing spy.

-rob


edit: You could consider running lands with painters grindstone? with 4 force and 4 shoal (painter makes shoal very good), you could have a viable non graveyard-deck based combo.

I've run a version with Dryad Arbors main and 15 lands in the board. (4 Bayou, 2 Underground Sea, 4 Verdant Catacomb, 1 Misty Rainforest, 4 Dakmor Salvage) the idea was game 2 you just do your thing until they land their hate card, then you finish them off with hardcast dredgers and junk. I would board out the difficult to cast things (Chancellors, Phantasmagorians) and the fetches could always grab Arbors if I was busy dredging successfully. I never really tested it enough because it seemed unrealistic to pick up 1000 dollars worth of lands for the sideboard of my 80 dollar deck.

[jimmythegreek]

I've run a version with Dryad Arbors main and 15 lands in the board. (4 Bayou, 2 Underground Sea, 4 Verdant Catacomb, 1 Misty Rainforest, 4 Dakmor Salvage) the idea was game 2 you just do your thing until they land their hate card, then you finish them off with hardcast dredgers and junk. I would board out the difficult to cast things (Chancellors, Phantasmagorians) and the fetches could always grab Arbors if I was busy dredging successfully. I never really tested it enough because it seemed unrealistic to pick up 1000 dollars worth of lands for the sideboard of my 80 dollar deck.

To dilute this deck with lands and to hard cast dredgers......difficult to cast??? Phantasmagorian, chancellors??? I'm a little drunk and extremely lost. Out of the board and options contagion is in my opinion most valuable. Strip hand and win with combo or beats.......or vice versa, praise the dark lord that is dredge.

[kombatkiwi]

I've run a version with Dryad Arbors main and 15 lands in the board. (4 Bayou, 2 Underground Sea, 4 Verdant Catacomb, 1 Misty Rainforest, 4 Dakmor Salvage) the idea was game 2 you just do your thing until they land their hate card, then you finish them off with hardcast dredgers and junk. I would board out the difficult to cast things (Chancellors, Phantasmagorians) and the fetches could always grab Arbors if I was busy dredging successfully. I never really tested it enough because it seemed unrealistic to pick up 1000 dollars worth of lands for the sideboard of my 80 dollar deck.

This seems stupid. If the mana version of dredge has no outs for hate cards then the plan of "Hardcast Golgari Thug and Narcomeba, attack opponent with them" barely ever works. I have no idea why you would want to deliberately make this your plan B in postboard games. Especially because "until they land their hate card" typically only gives you 2 turns maximum

[Echelon]

With 15 lands, all Wasteland-able (enough opponents forget to take out their Wastelands when SB'ing against you), your chances of landing enough lands to cast anything are next to none. In the best case you hardcast a Shambling Shell, while being 3+ turns behind on Delver-beats. Great plan.

[P-E]

Congrats to Dan for his 5th place

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86602

[Echelon]

Cool build. I'm hoping for a report, especially when it comes to the performance of the Arbors and the SB.

[P-E]

Curious about kelpie over rider but with only 2 Shoal in side Maybe it s ok

[Echelon]

Pros: Less sensitive to Stifle, works better with the aggro plan, creates a snowball-effect (hence the MB Zealot)

Cons: Doesn't let you win the same turn, so it's slower

My guess is it's a good build for a slow and grindy meta. It achieves the win using less resources/commitment then the full combo build and the snowball effect lets you break through your opponents' disruption more easily.

[Daize]

Interesting, you're writing: MB Zealot, but at the same time you're writing: doesn't win on the same turn.

It can win with quite some tokens + recurred Zealot, or with Flayer, I suppose.


Dread Return on a River Kelpie means dredging once. Casting a Cabal Therapy then means dredging another time, doing it with River Kelpie means dredging already 3 times. I'm not sure if I'd add Zealot as a second plan, but I enjoy the idea of having a bit of green, a bit of blue. I feel like it loses explosiveness a bit too much though (going explosiveness but fragility Spy -> blue -> greenblue -> green). Or am I missing something with the Ghasts here?

[Echelon]

Interesting, you're writing: MB Zealot, but at the same time you're writing: doesn't win on the same turn.

Yup. Selkie mainly helps speed up building up your board position to a point where after a couple of turns you're able to Therapy 2/3 times before firing a single DR again to reanimate Zealot. Hence the not the same turn bit. Especially G2 & G3 it's rather likely you can't rely on your Bridges so the Ichorids/Nether Shadows will have to do the heavy lifting during those games. Selkie helps you power those out more quickly (whilst being less of a red flag then when you're targeting a Balustrade Spy/Griselbrand/Whirlpool Rider with your DR).

The combo works often enough G1, but G2 and G3 tend to be a lot more grindy and it's much more important to outmaneuver your opponent and keep sneaking in some beats wherever you can. Hence the need to trick your opponent into thinking "Ok, I can let this DR resolve". G2/G3 I like to DR Chancellors quite often and just proceed to smash face with those. Opponents like to keep their counters for when you target something that flips your library and forget that a 5/6 flyer can present a nice clock as well.

[JTMSFTW]

Hey everyone. That was me with the list at the Indy PIQ. Thanks for the congrats.

Round 1 vs AD Nauseam

Game one the guy just kind of fizzles after I have already hit him with a couple ichorids.

Game two I actually lose to past in flames.

Game three I shoal his infernal tutor and get there.


Round 2 vs Sultai Delver

Game one he casts DRS on turn one after fetching for an Underground Sea. I probe him my turn one to see if there is a green source for him to eat my troll that I want to discard this turn. No green source in hand but he has a ponder, meanwhile i have no street wraith nor phantasmagorian to get around it. I discard troll, he draws and casts ponder and shuffles. I cross my fingers, he top decks a verdant catacombs, then goes on to cast two more DRS in the next three turns. I lose.

Game two I have street wraith in hand and he leads with DRS once again. I cycle my wraith when he activates DRS on his turn two and I hit a Troll and a narcomoeba, this game turns out to be quite grindy with his DRS but I eventually get there with some 2/2 zombies!

Game three he plays a delver on turn one and never flips it, I counter a Cage with shoal pitching probe then I tear into his hand with therapy taking his goyf and a Lily. I make some zombies and he plays another cage but I dredge some dakmor salvages to play stinkweed imp from my hand. Zombies and Imp get there.

Round 3 vs Thopter Sword (I believe it was this list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1236702

Game one he leads with city of traitors, mox opal, chalice for 0, dimir signet, chalice for one. I discard and cycle a wraith to get going. He plays an ensnaring bridge so now I'm for sure killing with Flayer. He also plays a tezzeret the next turn finding thopter foundy. I combo off next turn.

Game two He plays lodestone golem on turns two and three. I lose.

Game three I keep a hand with dryad arbor and natures's claim. I chose to draw this game clearly. He slams a leyline of the void an passes, I draw a force of will to go with my narco in hand. I play dryad arbor and pass, he plays a second land and passes back, I natures claim and pass back, he plays nothing and passes back I force something eventually and Combo off with kelpie and flayer.

Round 4 vs rug delver

Game one he flips delver on turn two an stifles a narco and an ichorid slowing me down. I end up comboing with flayer.

Game two he kills me with a couple delvers and by exiling some bridges.

Game three he sees a couple delvers and I cabal therapy my way to flayering him.

Round 5 vs Storm

Game one He gets pretty unlucky and I aggro him out with ichorids.

Game two I have a hand with street wraith, narco, force, force, troll, x, y. He probes me to see whats happening. then casts cabal therapy. I cycle street wraith drawing shoal. I counter the therapy with force pitching narco. I start dredging. He then chains a narco back to my hand before main phase one. Then surgicals my force of wills, seeing my shoal plus narco. I use it to counter an infernal tutor and get there.


Round 6 vs Death and Taxes. (I had to play this matchup because i got paired down to an X-0-1, i was less than thrilled to see D&T in this scenario)

Game one He leads with plains aether vial, I sigh. I end up getting there by playing a dakmor salvage to get my bloodghasts back and dread return a dryad arbor to make a bunch of zombies a couple of times.

Game two he plays plains and passes. I discard troll and pass. He plays spirit of the labyrinth and passes. I find cabal his hand naming STP and hit two of them. He does nothing and passes back, then EOT enlightened tutor for RIP. I force the rip and just start to amass tokens. he plays thalia and a jitte. Attacks with thalia i block with 6 tokens. he kills one of them and leaves his jitte with two counters and puts it on the Spirit. He exiles some bridges when I start to combo but its too late since i have bloodghast recursion and all the tokens I combo with flayer.



Round 7 ID


Top 8

I lose to burn in 3 games. Game one I get there with a bunch of tokens and bloodghast in much the same manner as against D&T. Games two and three my dredges were just terrible and he was able to kill me with multiple swiftspears. :p


Sorry if some of the match recollections seem a bit scarce, I only had about 5 hours of sleep and then drove a few hours before playing this PIQ so please forgive me.

More about the deck: RiverGhast

So this version i don't actually call manaless because of the 10 lands in the 75. Main board you have access to three more "free" creatures than a traditional manaless build. I have played the manaless balustrade spy version before but I was tired of losing to Thalia... a 2/1 for two. So I decided to brew this little list up. There are many different lines of play in this deck. It goes very deep and is very grindy sometimes. River Kelpie, in my testing, fits in the list better than whirlpool rider would for a couple reasons. There was a fair amount of time that I had dumped my whole hand to a phantasmagorian and then animated a rider and only had a few cards in hand which led to me not dredging near enough of my deck and leaving me to pass the turn back and die. River Kelpie, 90 percent of the time I feel like, gets me there. Upon reanimation the best case scenario is to have some amount of bloodghasts in the yard. At this point you can use the kelpie ETB trigger to dredge back a salvage, or maybe you just have a land in hand. After dredging a couple times, more than likely you've found another spell to cast from the GY or some amount of Narcos coming into play to allow for more river kelpie triggers and dredging, furthermore, river kelpie has persist so if you have a couple of bridges and you sac the kelpie, you are back up to three guys and you get to dredge again when kelpie comes back. If you already have some other creatures to flashback some spells, you probably want to leave the kelpie alone, in case you actually need to use it to flashback some spells after some more dredging. The most important thing to remember about Kelpie is that the trigger is a must. Because of this, you must be aware of your library card count. You can dredge down to two cards left if you have a kelpie that has not persisted. You must then use the kelpie as part of both of your dread returns to win the game. the first one will have the kelpie come back into play, and you draw a card, and bringing the flayer back and drawing a card, then sacing the kelpie to another dread return on the grave troll with no cards in library. Alternatively, in the two cards left scenario, you can reanimate a flame-kin and attack with zero cards in library. Most of my favorite lines of play in this deck involve bloodghast and dryad arbor. Whether its being able to discard bloodghasts to a phantasmagorian and suprising to your opponent have three creatures when you play your dryad arbor to go off on your turn two, or reanimating a dryad arbor to bring back some ghasts and getting a bunch of kelpie triggers or making a bunch of tokens a couple times in a turn. The lands in this list as I previously mentioned give you more game against thalia and daze, as well as sometimes allowing you to cast a creature from your hand when necessary. There was a match I played months ago where I won against RUG delver by casting two Stinkweeds and an ichorid from my hand to get there in the face of a GD Cage. The sideboard is pretty tuned i think. I understand that people run whirlpool rider to be able to pitch it to a shoal to dodge a RIP. Alternatively, they are still in the same boat against Cage and without any green, are completely dead to Leyline. With this sideboard we have ways to deal with these menacing cards before or after resolution. Certainly no one wants a RIP to ever resolve, but if they do, with claim we still have a chance. The counterspells in the board also take your matchup against ad nauseam , from terrible to fine. I've always had some amount of mindbreak trap in the SB, but cabal therapy is just too good for it to get there all the time. I saw that someone had mentioned before this post that I couldn't win on the same turn that I reanimate. That is false, like I said, reanimating kelpie in conjuction with the multiple ways to trigger it, almost always leads to a win the same turn... as early as your turn two. I truly believe this version is much more resilient and just as, or more, explosive than regular manaless, while having the ability to grind away if thats what it comes to.

[P-E]

really interesting readings i'll give your version a try ^^ plus it's full foilable :cool:

what's your usual in and out ? i saw you side in force against dnt but did you side forest claims too ?

[Rishadan]

Hey Dan, thanks for the report and congrats again for the high placing! I just wanted to ask how you sideboarded and what justified those decisions for the matchups.

[JTMSFTW]

I would be more than happy to go over some sideboard plans, I am currently at work so I will post in the next few hours. Sideboarding with this deck is very much an art instead of the usual "This is the exact sideboard plan for this X matchup". Thanks for the interest my friends, it makes me happy to see anyone is interested in my brew!!!!!

[JTMSFTW]

really interesting readings i'll give your version a try ^^ plus it's full foilable :cool:

what's your usual in and out ? i saw you side in force against dnt but did you side forest claims too ?

I'm foiling mine out currently! and yes I brought in everything except the mindbreaks.

[Rishadan]

I'm still somewhat new to the world of manaless dredge, so the only real decks that I got to see in action and do well were landless builds that made top 8's in 2013-14 that were purely flayer/balustrade plan. The primer obviously included River Kelpie as a good card to use, but I was never able to conceptualize its power level when not many decks revolved around its ability. Your build obviously has some unique choices with the Dakmor Salvages, so I'm very intrigued by this build.

[Daize]

I would be more than happy to go over some sideboard plans, I am currently at work so I will post in the next few hours. Sideboarding with this deck is very much an art instead of the usual "This is the exact sideboard plan for this X matchup". Thanks for the interest my friends, it makes me happy to see anyone is interested in my brew!!!!!

Haha I feel exactly like that, sideboarding being "an art". But there's got to be rationale behind it. So try to think what your reasoning was, then going by that reasoning let's see if it makes sense (or other choices would be more optimal)!

[Echelon]

Report & about the deck

Hey there, thank you for the report and explanation about the build. I'm very much intrigued by it. Wonderful work and out of the box thinking!

And my apologies for missing the DR Selkie -> dredge & drop Dakmor -> recur Bloodghasts -> ??? -> profit-line :smile:.

[P-E]

Kelpie+ghast+salvage is really decent target after all ^^

did you faced Lands or 12 posts already with your list ? i find this 2 MUs really difficult for manaless/riverghast

[ntropy]

I've seen the light on my 15 land sideboard. I might as well just run 15 Trolls. I tried it because I was sick of feeling so powerless against hate. I wanted to to convert to something that could just ignore the hate. I suspected it would be bad, and now I know for sure! I'm currently fiddling with the blue cards.

[movingtonewao]

thanks for the report! can't wait for the sbding details and rationale :)

[jimmythegreek]

Wow. A deck that can cast natures claim and force....let's continue the conversation. A bit grinder than I like but I'm totally interested in testing this deck.

[BJeagle]

I would be more than happy to go over some sideboard plans, I am currently at work so I will post in the next few hours. Sideboarding with this deck is very much an art instead of the usual "This is the exact sideboard plan for this X matchup". Thanks for the interest my friends, it makes me happy to see anyone is interested in my brew!!!!!

Im gonna play the "RiverGhast Dredge" on the Scandinavian Open on sunday and wonder if u have some SB-idees. Played yesterday against D&T and STRAX and 5-0-1.
River Kelpie, Dread Return a Dryad Arbor or landfall on Bloodghast (My card says Der Blutschaudere :wink:) are just so much better what i thought!

[Daize]

I'm just a bit confused. It seems like we went from an enabler pur sang (dread return into dredge 3+) to a potential enabler (dredge 1, then the opponent can respond, already need to have another sac outlet online in the gy, or bloodghast + land in hand or salvage in gy)...

Say in a bad case scenario, 3 cards in hand due to Phantasmagorian, whirlpool rider dredges 3 unconditionally. Even with 2 bloodghasts and a land to drop, you won't even pass that bad whirlpool rider scenario (that turn), let alone the worse disrupting shoal interaction..

It seems fringe, but it needs more to set up the thing... That's supposed to set you up! Or am I missing something here?

Edit: the scenario you're describing potentially gives you (kelpie, kelpie (DR sac), dread return, arbor, 2 blood ghast) 6 dredges. but you need 1 Dread Return, 1 arbor, and 2 ghasts more than a whirlpool rider for that to happen. Having the 3 creatures in play is nice, but you just wasted 1 of your 4 dread returns to make that happen (for a 1/1, and 2 2/1s, once you've got dread return online that's not that hard to get). wasting the DR is huge! And I'm not even talking about a comparison with Spy, or grisel.

The more I think about it, the worse it gets :D. It may just work well because the synergy is just amazing in this deck, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.

[Echelon]

Dakmor dredges 2, not 1.

It also allows you to create a couple of creatures on your turn whenever you need them. It makes it easier to set up the combo turn b/c you have more recurring critters.

[Mindlash]

Dakmor dredges 2, not 1.

It also allows you to create a couple of creatures on your turn whenever you need them. It makes it easier to set up the combo turn b/c you have more recurring critters.

He is obviously not talking about Dakmor Salvage. It is about the guaranteed dredges you get out of Kelpie as opposed to the potential dredges given the setup.

The part with dredge 3+ isn't about Golgari Thug and friends neither.

Best regards,

[ccab]

Hey JTMSFTW can you show us how to sb?

[P-E]

http://imgur.com/zJIWkny

g3 against tinfins ^^

riverghast is more grindy but it's good too

siding is a bit rough

[slave]

riverghast is more grindy but it's good too

siding is a bit rough
RE: *Riverghast*
Not a big fan of the green splash here, as the chance of getting both a claim & the green mana in your intial 8 is fairly minute.

[Echelon]

RE: *Riverghast*
Not a big fan of the green splash here, as the chance of getting both a claim & the green mana in your intial 8 is fairly minute.

I'm currently working on a version that does incorporate the RiverGhast package, but forfeits the Arbors (so it's pretty much the standard Spy build where Spy = Selkie, Chancellor of the Annex = Bloodghast and Shambling Shell = Dakmor Salvage). I'm set to run it in a tournament july 25th. I'll let you know how it works out.

[jimmythegreek]

I'm a bit confused with the "river-ghast" tech. I understand it's a bit more grindy against say extractions and removal. Most often my wins come from returning a spy for the combo kill, I'm not sure I want my deck to be any slower than it already is. And I agree with slave, green mana plus claim is a bit of a pipe dream in your opening seven. This deck is consistent due to the quality of cards that have effects in the graveyard, the reason why I stopped playing led dredge was due to how often so much of my yard was filled with useless shit. Finally, switching a dredger with a lower dredge count bothers me a bit, I always want to dredge as much as possible. I think it's an interesting brew, I just want to see how the deck plays to its strengths and weaknesses.

[slave]

I'm a bit confused with the "river-ghast" tech. I understand it's a bit more grindy against say extractions and removal. Most often my wins come from returning a spy for the combo kill, I'm not sure I want my deck to be any slower than it already is. And I agree with slave, green mana plus claim is a bit of a pipe dream in your opening seven. This deck is consistent due to the quality of cards that have effects in the graveyard, the reason why I stopped playing led dredge was due to how often so much of my yard was filled with useless shit. Finally, switching a dredger with a lower dredge count bothers me a bit, I always want to dredge as much as possible. I think it's an interesting brew, I just want to see how the deck plays to its strengths and weaknesses.
LOL, I still play Manaless (instead of LED-dredge) for the same reason. LED-Dredge is faster of course, but against either blue or black decks it's easier to hate out.

I think I might give it a go, just without the green bit, and concentrate on a blue version and give us a better sideboard.
Kelpie is great with Ghasts and Ickys, but being 5-cmc hurts the counter plan VS Rider @ 2cmc.
Think I'm gonna experiment here and see where it goes... kinda feel like a change of pace anyway!

[Basedx]

Hi guys, last thursday i played a local 4 round at my shop and went 3-1 and made top. We all split for prizes. But i have a small report of what i can remember. Im playing the same Blue list thats in the first post:

Round 1 - Food Chain (2-0)

G1: He goes t1 Noble Hierarchic, and goes t2 DRS. He said he might have heard i was on Dredge and he would have t1 DRS if he was sure. I turn 2 therapy after a git probe and he reveals a bunch of lands, a food chain, and a dig. I took the dig by mistake trying to lock him with just a food chain, which is a lot riskier. It worked, but at any point he had the chain online and could have drew everything to win. But he does nothing else really and we win.

G2: I believe he does get a DRS out, but late again. I turn 2 therapy 2 food chains away, and he does nothing relevant and eventually kill him.

round 2 - RW Painter (0-2)

Both games of the match he turn 2 combos me. This is whats making me take out 1 Ashen Rider from the side and putting in 1 Progenitus.

round 3 - reanimator (2-1)

G1: He gets out a turn 3 or 4 Griseldaddy, but is cast off an Entomb. I bring back a Whirlpool rider and dredge a HUGE amount of my library. This leaves me with tons of Ichorids/Narcos/etc. He's at around 10 life so i try to just go for the Flayer kill since i have at least 3 Dread Returns. He draws off Griseldaddy and has a Daze and a Force, but i have too many Dread Returns and eventually kill with Flayer triggers off zombies.

G2: The turn 0 leyline leads to a scoop.

G3: He sets up for a turn 3 Elesh Norn, but unknown to him i have Force + Shoal + Narcomeoba + Gitaxian Probe. I Shoal his Reanimate, he forces, and then i force which he was not prepared for. I then immediately Dread Return/Cabal Therapy an Ashen Rider (He's sided in just in case he has Entomb and he's in the grave) and take out 2 of his Underground Seas which leaves him with only a Tropical Island. Next turn he scoops with lethal on board.

round 4 - RW Painter (2-0) (Different opponent)

G1: Turn 1 top for him, t2 he goes recruiter for painter. On my t3 i strip his hand of the combo and he has nothing else going on and i just kill him next turn.

g2 - Seems like an okay game, he has like nothing going on until turn 3. He plays Recruiter getting Painter. I manage to therapy it away but he does have grind stone + Enlightened Tutor. I assume when he casts the tutor on his next upkeep he is going to go get his Tormods, but he punts and gets another Painter and realizes he doesnt have enough mana to play and activate.



So that puts us at 3-1, getting us into top 4 and we all decide to split for 25 credit a piece at 10 entry fee. The only change i have for this week coming up is putting in a Progenitus so im basically impervious to the combo from Painter. I think all they have is weenie beats if they cant combo me out. Of course they can just crypt me after they combo, but that can add more setup and if they really have that much redundancy then i was dead anyway.

[meso94]

Hi guys, last thursday i played a local 4 round at my shop and went 3-1 and made top. We all split for prizes. But i have a small report of what i can remember. Im playing the same Blue list thats in the first post:

Round 1 - Food Chain (2-0)

G1: He goes t1 Noble Hierarchic, and goes t2 DRS. He said he might have heard i was on Dredge and he would have t1 DRS if he was sure. I turn 2 therapy after a git probe and he reveals a bunch of lands, a food chain, and a dig. I took the dig by mistake trying to lock him with just a food chain, which is a lot riskier. It worked, but at any point he had the chain online and could have drew everything to win. But he does nothing else really and we win.

G2: I believe he does get a DRS out, but late again. I turn 2 therapy 2 food chains away, and he does nothing relevant and eventually kill him.

round 2 - RW Painter (0-2)

Both games of the match he turn 2 combos me. This is whats making me take out 1 Ashen Rider from the side and putting in 1 Progenitus.

round 3 - reanimator (2-1)

G1: He gets out a turn 3 or 4 Griseldaddy, but is cast off an Entomb. I bring back a Whirlpool rider and dredge a HUGE amount of my library. This leaves me with tons of Ichorids/Narcos/etc. He's at around 10 life so i try to just go for the Flayer kill since i have at least 3 Dread Returns. He draws off Griseldaddy and has a Daze and a Force, but i have too many Dread Returns and eventually kill with Flayer triggers off zombies.

G2: The turn 0 leyline leads to a scoop.

G3: He sets up for a turn 3 Elesh Norn, but unknown to him i have Force + Shoal + Narcomeoba + Gitaxian Probe. I Shoal his Reanimate, he forces, and then i force which he was not prepared for. I then immediately Dread Return/Cabal Therapy an Ashen Rider (He's sided in just in case he has Entomb and he's in the grave) and take out 2 of his Underground Seas which leaves him with only a Tropical Island. Next turn he scoops with lethal on board.

round 4 - RW Painter (2-0) (Different opponent)

G1: Turn 1 top for him, t2 he goes recruiter for painter. On my t3 i strip his hand of the combo and he has nothing else going on and i just kill him next turn.

g2 - Seems like an okay game, he has like nothing going on until turn 3. He plays Recruiter getting Painter. I manage to therapy it away but he does have grind stone + Enlightened Tutor. I assume when he casts the tutor on his next upkeep he is going to go get his Tormods, but he punts and gets another Painter and realizes he doesnt have enough mana to play and activate.



So that puts us at 3-1, getting us into top 4 and we all decide to split for 25 credit a piece at 10 entry fee. The only change i have for this week coming up is putting in a Progenitus so im basically impervious to the combo from Painter. I think all they have is weenie beats if they cant combo me out. Of course they can just crypt me after they combo, but that can add more setup and if they really have that much redundancy then i was dead anyway.

What list do you bring to the tournament??

[Echelon]

He brought the same blue list as in the first post...

[Basedx]

He brought the same blue list as in the first post...

Yes, as i said in the post.

[jimmythegreek]

Went 4-1 tonight in 25 person tourney at lgs.

Rug delver 2-0
Food chain 0-2
Burn 2-1
Snt 2-0
Omni show 2-0

Super late and gotta be up early....maybe a short report tomorrow. Real quick though: omni player plays snt with one open land, I already have a chancellor in play. Omni player shows omniscience and I show chancellor number two, gg. Cabal therapy was so good tonight.

[slave]

Went 4-1 tonight
Nice one.

So I took my Ghast-version along last week, went 3-1 (including a bye)
Won against Burn, UR Delver, Soldiers (permission based) - Lost against Death&Taxes
Soldiers and D&T was interesting with Dakmor! :tongue:
Not sure what to make of it compared to my standard blue list, gonna take it along next time to make sure.

After working on a list, and goldfishing;
I'm not entirely happy.
The blue plan demands a fairly single-minded approach to deck design, whereas Ghast/Dakmor dilutes some of that for it to all fit.
For me the Dakmors were very welcome given I expect to see Death&Taxes on a regular basis where I am.
The hardest part was the choice between River Kelpie & Whirlpool Rider. Ghasts and Kelpie are all good and that, but rider is where the blue plan wants to be if you're going to be siding in Disrupting Shoal.
I've gone with Kelpie for testing purposes and the last night out, but so far I'm not sold.
The flipside of this, perhaps only Force together with Kelpie, no shoals at all and maybe use the side for something else? (sigh)

Anyone else tried this out yet?

[jimmythegreek]

Admittedly I havnt dabbled alot with the blue version recently as ive been killing it with the spy version. I think ive been dodging some hate which also has alot to do with my results. My meta is super saturated with drs, excluding chancellor would be a death-sentence and I feel the card is super under-rated as a dread return target. I think if your gonna go blue you wanna use rider if for nothing else the ability to pitch it to shoal, the purpose of adding blue is most importantly to fight hate. Again, I havnt given much thought to the ghast/fow versions(still need to get some fow's). Until I get hated out at my lgs im gonna run the spy's as they are the fastest way to win. Slave, whats your meta like and does it warrant the blue splash? Btw....manaless crushes blue decks, so good.

[slave]

Slave, whats your meta like and does it warrant the blue splash? Btw....manaless crushes blue decks, so good.
Where I typically play is a mixed bag of newbie's and ye olde regulars like me.
Blue is very common (as it always is in Legacy I suppose), and hate has subsided a fair bit in the last 6months to a year, since Death&Taxes decks started dominating.
So most of the time Manaless is playable. I'm almost the only person who plays it regularly, or LED-Dredge, but there is another fella who drags it out occasionally.
We have at least 3 regular players of D&T in a room that holds ~30 players when maxed out, usually we see a few less than that though.
I don't see too many of the *Decks to Beat* lists showing up (besides D&T, Show, Reanimator) in my area thankfully, just the odd one here or there.
DRS is always a threat, and ran rampant a while back. But lately I haven't seen the sucker all that much.

Spy would probably be just as good given my meta to be honest, but I'm just not willing to give up the counter, I am well and truly a convert.
And I fully agree with you re:Rider, I've just been wanting to test out Kelpie. :wink:

[Echelon]

I've done a number of games with Kelpie now and must say I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm using the following list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below

3 River Kelpie
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Progenitus

Having 16 creatures that EtB (12 of which are recurring) is a pretty big upgrade. I'm not sure if I want to keep Selkie or trade it for Whirlpool Riders (or Drakes, since I'm not running counters, for that matter) though. Selkie still feels like it needs a little setting up/making sure conditions are right to go for it (you can't play a land before DR'ing it). But that might be just as true for the Rider/Drake. Or maybe I want to go with Griselbrand as DR target, I dunno yet. Being able to get those Bloodghasts on the field before comboing off seems like the best thing to do, since we want to Cabal Therapy our opponent before going off and all that.

I think that for the tournament this saturday, I'll be switching it to the Drake for the combo bit.

On a side note concerning the Spy version: The biggest upside of that build is that you don't need any extra dredges post-DR (obviously). The first time I DR'd Selkie, I ended up having to Therapy myself b/c all Grave-Trolls were in my hand and for some reason the last 3 Phantasmagorians were still in what was left of my library. It felt kinda silly. The Spy combo is a lot faster in execution, you don't have to manipulate that many cards/work so many triggers to kill your opponent. Not that that should be a reason to run Spy over Selkie/Rider, but it's worth noting.

[Basedx]

I've done a number of games with Kelpie now and must say I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm using the following list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below

3 River Kelpie
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Progenitus

Having 16 creatures that EtB (12 of which are recurring) is a pretty big upgrade. I'm not sure if I want to keep Selkie or trade it for Whirlpool Riders (or Drakes, since I'm not running counters, for that matter) though. Selkie still feels like it needs a little setting up/making sure conditions are right to go for it (you can't play a land before DR'ing it). But that might be just as true for the Rider/Drake. Or maybe I want to go with Griselbrand as DR target, I dunno yet. Being able to get those Bloodghasts on the field before comboing off seems like the best thing to do, since we want to Cabal Therapy our opponent before going off and all that.

I think that for the tournament this saturday, I'll be switching it to the Drake for the combo bit.

On a side note concerning the Spy version: The biggest upside of that build is that you don't need any extra dredges post-DR (obviously). The first time I DR'd Selkie, I ended up having to Therapy myself b/c all Grave-Trolls were in my hand and for some reason the last 3 Phantasmagorians were still in what was left of my library. It felt kinda silly. The Spy combo is a lot faster in execution, you don't have to manipulate that many cards/work so many triggers to kill your opponent. Not that that should be a reason to run Spy over Selkie/Rider, but it's worth noting.


I don't have the most experience with Manaless with Spy, but i do play the FoW version. Im a bit interested in why you are running this version instead of the regular Spy version if you arent running the blue FoW/Shoal package? From my understanding the FoW/Shoal version plays Whirlpool rider as a replacement for spy to give us cards to pitch for it while still being able to accelerate dredges. If you're not playing Forces, why not just play spy? It feels like you cant try and race decks fast enough because you don't have the additional counter package.

[Echelon]

There are a lot of grindy MU's in my meta (a while back I faced Esper Deathblade 3 rounds in a row, Batterskull + enough mana to bounce it is a bitch). During a lot of those matches, I struggle to get to the point where I can reliably cast DR. This b/c I often have too few creatures (and Bridges) to Cabal Therapy 2+ times in 1 turn (a little bit too often I had to strip away 2+ castable counters/StP etc. before being able to safely go off) AND DR that same turn. The key to solving this is being able to have a few more creatures in play without having to rely on your Bridges.

After a couple of turns of barely getting by, you dredge (if necessary) and play the Dakmoor Salvage and boom, you have 2+ extra creatures to feed to Cabal Therapies. Or, when really living the dream, you may even have an untapped Salvage on the field. Cast Therapy, then flasback it.

Heck, in the worst case it's a couple of extra bodies to join Ichorid on the beatdown.

Anywho, b/c that's what I want to do I obviously can't run Balustrade Spy. This leaves us with the Whirlpool creatures, Kelpie and Griselbrand as most common DR targets/combo enablers. Griselbrand is a great DR target, but you won't always be able to pay 7 life to combo out. On the other hand, Griselbrand is a 3 turn clock, that's never bad. I just can't protect it for that long, not running counters and all. With Kelpie you really have to wait to play a land until after you DR it. This kinda undermines the problem I'm trying to fix. And since I'm not playing any counters, I don't need a 2 CMC creature to pitch to Shoal. So that leaves me with Whirlpool Drake as my DR target. Even if the first trigger nets me only 2 dredges, the second nets me another 2 for a total of 4 dredges (or roughly 20 or so cards in the GY). Or, with enough cards in my hand, I can play through a Stifle, making it easier to go off. It's also nice that the Whirlpool critters let you put Narcomoebas that are stuck in your hand back into your library.

[Rivfader]

A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

[Echelon]

For the Ashen Rider bit - Ashen Rider doesn't ensure you stop the Omni-tell player (depending on what they drop with S&T, most likely Omniscience). When they drop Omniscience, they can use all instant speed cantrips they want in response to the Rider trigger so even if it saves you that turn, you're pretty much dead the next.

The SB looks ok. I don't like having DR targets in the SB for the Spy-list (DR'd Spy = win), but that's about it. If you feel you need 'em for your meta, more power to you.

When running the Spy-list, I like to have a Progenitus in the main 60. Just so I can live the dream of dropping a Spy on the opponents' S&T, where they drop an Emrakul.

[jimmythegreek]

A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

Last tourney I beat omni-show with a dread returned chancellor! They had one open mana after show/tell, I showed the second chancellor.......all spells cost two:-)

[Rivfader]

Last tourney I beat omni-show with a dread returned chancellor! They had one open mana after show/tell, I showed the second chancellor.......all spells cost two:-)

I would never thought of that (although it's parallel to Lands dropping (trini)sphere on S&T), that's just awesome :)
@ Echelon: Ty for the advice, I probably swap out Ashen Rider for something else.
Is Omnitell to be considered a favorable MU?

[slave]

A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.
Yeah my experience is similar to others here. I didn't find Ashen Rider to be completely effective at stopping show, as they plan for it, given their deck has very few options for interaction at that point. It's the best option we have for that matchup, but I'd only include it if Show is common where you are.

When I used to run spy, the matchups that had me disappointed more than any other were the taxing ones, ie Thalia, Guardian of Thraben-types.
If you can't land Spy against these kind of decks, you're left to grinding it out against Batterskull etc., until they land a Cage/RiP.
You won't win these matches unless you combo very quickly or get past the taxers, neither of which are easy or likely, given many of these decks run discard and/or creature exile to slow down your Dread Returns.
Whilst I'm not running Spy right now, nor have I played Spy for about 6 months competitively, I'd be giving thought to Dakmor (in the side) and Chancellor (in the main) for sure.
I'd be keeping Contagion & Macabre too.


Is Omnitell to be considered a favorable MU?
With Chancellor in the 60, it can be. But no, not really, their deck is less of a glass cannon than ours and has a silver-bullet sideboard they can access from game1.
But;
They're significantly slower than us (when we're at our best), however Brainstorm and counter will make it easier for them to race you. The key here is Therapy together with Probe.
Remember you don't have to name the card with Therapy, until after they choose to counter/brainstorm or not.
With Therapy in game1, I often name Force or Cunning Wish early. After sideboarding, it will depend a bit on the game state.
Bringing back Chancellor is good against this deck too as they need large amounts of mana to *go-off*.

One thing to note;
The Omnitell players don't seem to run redundancy where I play. Their whole deck hinges on Show and Tell. They could run a few Dream Halls, but choose not to, or at least I don't see them anyway. In this respect, Therapy can wreck them. I used to run Surgical Extraction in manaless (side) before I went blue, I just don't have room for it anymore.
An option to consider....

[Rivfader]

That's some pretty good advice. I'll definitely try the Surgicals considering the synergy with cabal therapy. Might try Unmask as well should I like it.

I also see your point regarding Thalia, and the consideration of Dakmor Salvage. That would probably mean swapping Spy for Dakmor postboard, and that feels like a hard bargain, especially since Dakmor can be wasted/ported. Perhaps a longshot, but would Chrome mox be worth the sideslots (it doesn't clash with spy, and can't be wasted/ported, but unfortunately doesn't dredge)?

[kenrac]

I've been messing around with this deck, because I fell in love with it at first sight. :)

I was wondering if anyone has considered or tried Avaricious Dragon. The 4/4 flier is ok, but the draw 2 cards, discard your hand EOT, seems to be a great fit for this.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Thrasher]

There are better options. Griselbrand,spy,whirlpool rider/drake/whatever allow you to win in the turn they get DR'd. Dragon forces you to pass the turn to get value out of it.

[Echelon]

So... I hit a new low this weekend. Managed to go 0-5 with the list I posted on the previous page. In the first round I made a couple of big errors that ended up costing me both games, had some issues with the deck not wanting to do its thing (dredge 20+ cards, still no creatures to recur) and some bad MU's. The rounds were as follows:

Round 1, Goblins. 1-2
In game 1 at some point I know his hand and name Goblin Warchief. Turns out it was a Chieftain. That cost me game 1. Game 2, the deck did what I wanted it to - ran over the poor guy like a truck. Game 3, Vengeful Pharaoh was doing a ton of work. At some point he attacked with a number of creatures including a big ass Piledriver and a Warren Instigator. During first strike damage, I forget that Pharaoh triggers (which would have killed Piledriver before it did any damage). He ended up Instigatoring a Matron and a Siege Gang Commander, saccing a token for exactsies.

Round 2, UWx somethingBlade. 1-2
Game 1, he doesn't stand a chance. I durdle a bit with the kill but get it in the end. Game 2 and 3, he finds an early Containment Priest and in 10 cards or so, I dredge 2 of my 3 Contagions into my graveyard. GG.

Round 3, Elves! 0-2.
Game 1 he steamrolls me on T3. G2 he start with land, Deathrite. I have the Contagion and Surgical Extraction, so I strip them out of his deck. Turned out it was the right move to do, as he had a Green Sun's Zenith he wanted to use to find a 2nd DRS. Unfortunately, this forced me into draw-go for a couple of turns so by turn 4 he steamrolled me again.

Round 4, Miracles. 1-2.
Game 1 went like a dream. G2, T2 RiP. G3, T1 Grafdigger's Cage. Turned out he had boarded in 2 RiP, 2 Cage and 2 Containment Priest. OMG!

Round 5, Nic Fit.
G1, T1, DRS. I drop a land, hardcast Cabal Therapy 2 times, stripping his hand of anything dangerous. I never find the Street Wraith/Phantasmagorian and scoop when at 10 life, facing 2 DRS and a Sigarda. G2 I get the engine going but have some bad luck with my dredges. Even though my Pharaoh is in the yard, it can't kill his Sigarda and soon a Scavenging Ooze eats everything important.

I don't know what to think of this. Was this just a combination of big mistakes, bad luck and unfortunate MU's or am I just trying to do too much with this list..?

At the end of the day, I do like having the Bloodghasts. Having to keep a hand with Dakmor Salvage as your only dredger sucks but happened in only 1 game over the course of the day. Besides, soon after I found a Troll. The Bloodghasts add some nice pressure to the board and explosive plays on the combo turn and were the biggest stars of the day, pretty much. Alongside Vengeful Pharaoh, that is. I currently run 3 of those in my SB and have no plans on shrinking that number.

I'm curious to know what you guys think.

[slave]

...would Chrome mox be worth the sideslots (it doesn't clash with spy, and can't be wasted/ported, but unfortunately doesn't dredge)?
It's not such a crazy idea with Spy. I've not tested it personally, feel free to give a spin and let us know what you think.
My initial thought would be to only consider it if *taxing* matchups are common for you.


Round 1, Goblins.
At some point he attacked with a number of creatures including a big ass Piledriver and a Warren Instigator. During first strike damage, I forget that Pharaoh triggers (which would have killed Piledriver before it did any damage).

(Vengeful Pharaoh) I currently run 3 of those in my SB and have no plans on shrinking that number.
Bummer, sounds like a terrible night!
I've used the same out to Piledriver in the past too. :cool:
Given we should usually just stomp goblins and that matches like Miracles and Nic-Fit can be bloody difficult to win, I think you just had an unlucky one.

Given the Bloodghast list relies less on Bridge than the regular list, I can see how Pharaoh could prove a worthy SB pick. I totally forgot about that guy.
What matchups do you regularly bring it in for?

[Final Fortune]

Unless you are playing Dakmor Salvage from hand the opportunity cost of Dredging 2 as opposed to 4.5 on average isn't worth the extra body over just playing Dryad Arbor or the X robots. Even a more subtle card like Gigapede to increase your average Dredge or discard business probably gives you more consistency than having to play Dakmor Salvage at all. If you want to recur a land from the graveyard in order to activate Bloodghast, Dread Returning Dryad Arbor probably gives you better value.

I think the card is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

[Echelon]

Given the Bloodghast list relies less on Bridge than the regular list, I can see how Pharaoh could prove a worthy SB pick. I totally forgot about that guy.
What matchups do you regularly bring it in for?

Pretty much every, except for Miracles and Elves!


Unless you are playing Dakmor Salvage from hand the opportunity cost of Dredging 2 as opposed to 4.5 on average isn't worth the extra body over just playing Dryad Arbor or the X robots. Even a more subtle card like Gigapede to increase your average Dredge or discard business probably gives you more consistency than having to play Dakmor Salvage at all. If you want to recur a land from the graveyard in order to activate Bloodghast, Dread Returning Dryad Arbor probably gives you better value.

I think the card is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

Ghasts have been some of the best performers of the day. The main problem is that with grindy MU's you don't have the resources to safely DR, so how do you expect to DR a Dryad Arbor to then recur the Bloodghasts (or DR anything else)?

Dredging Dakmor wasn't the issue, in the 13 games I played saturday I only had to dredge it once (and then dredged a Thug, so there's that). Also, by the time my board presence was big enough to want to dredge Dakmor, dredging 4 cards extra wouldn't have mattered. If I want to go off that turn, I can't use Ichorids/Nether Shadows I dredged into that turn anyway. Having the ability to dump 2/3 extra bodies on the board is quite big.

The thing with the X-bots (and other stuff) is that they're only useful in your starting 7/8. After that, they're useless. Same goes with Chancellor (although a DR'd Chancellor can win games on its own). I don't like having dead cards in my deck, especially not in a deck like this. Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast are cards that let you prevent just that. Sure, you don't want to dredge Dakmor more often than you have to, but Dakmor is never a dead card. In your hand, it's awesome. In your yard, it allows you to dredge it so you can get some bodies when you need those. Same goes for Bloodghast. It can be fed to Ichorid, it can be a nice beatstick alongside other stuff, it can power your combo. Even mid-combo they can be useful if needed to be. Or the Bloodghasts can be used to push through some more damage with Flayer on the board. Flayer for 4 + Flayer for 5 + 4 Bloodghast x 2 power = 17 damage, allowing you to possible skip on 1 DR for the combo kill.

I'm not sure yet, I definetely think I'm on to something. It just isn't for my meta, I fear. But I'll keep on testing.

[Final Fortune]

I honestly don't think Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast improve any of your match ups other than D&T and metagaming vs Deathrite Shaman is more important and costs less MD space, but whatever floats your boat I guess because 8 cards are really a matter of taste in any Manaless Dredge list.

No creature card is ever really dead in Dredge as long as it runs Nether Shadow.

[scottpou]

I honestly don't think Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast improve any of your match ups other than D&T and metagaming vs Deathrite Shaman is more important and costs less MD space, but whatever floats your boat I guess because 8 cards are really a matter of taste in any Manaless Dredge list.

I have kept at least 1 dakmor in the main just for the game 1 matchup against D&T with thalia, guardian of thraben or Mud with Lodestone Golem. They are both most likely bringing in gravehate g2, but I had a 1 card wiggle room and see both decks often in my meta.

Here is my current 75:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
1 Dakmor Salvage

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow

4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

4 Whirlpool Drake
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Ashen Rider
1 Progenitus

SB: 3 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Unmask

Sideboard decisions: I have had shoal miss too many times. When my opponent mulligans down to 5 and then is pleased. I want the FoW obviously, but if I can't find it with a Serum then I'll gladly Unmask, take that grave hate and wait 2 turns to start dredging. Its my preferred backup method of not auto-losing to RiP and the like.

[jimmythegreek]

Another horror- show at my lgs going 4-1 good for 2nd place.
Living end 2-1
Omni-show 2-0
Bug control? 2-0
Nic fit 2-1
Snt 1-2

Late. Ill try to post something relevant tomorrow. I love this deck.

[zzap]

Hello All!

Here is my list that I've been running on Trice for several weeks now; it's a little different from what everyone is doing here:

4 Serum Powders

4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dakmor Depths
4 Wasteland

I like running Powders, as I was getting hands without any dredgers; I put in these in to act as my fifth dredger. Also, they allow me to actually mulligan more aggressively for particular setups. I like Bloodghast over Nether Shadow. I feel they pull their weight equally to Nethers if not more. I really like dredging into Ghasts and recurring them on the same turn. Both Ichorids and Nethers have to wait. A clock of 2 is much better than that of 1. So with Bloodghasts, I run Wastelands instead of Arbors. I like the addition, but many of you may not. Personally, they work great! They are like speedbumps that don't slow me down. Since my list isn't so dependent on Returning a fatty, I focus on my beatdowns with Batman and Robin. It's a really fun list, and well themed I might add. I've gotten a lot of compliments.

I used to run Spy and fearless. Stuff like Unmask were in the list. But I trimmed it down to the above. I run a blue package in the sideboard; I am still fiddling around with the board. I always run 4 Voids; I hate losing to Reanimator. What would you all suggest to run against a Show and Tell deck, or something that abuses such? I am still waiting for MTG to print a black and blue gamebreaker creature that has power like Iona.

I even looked at some old Vintage lists to see some ideas; I saw a Sutured Ghoul, which seemed interesting.

Cheers!

[Echelon]

Golgari Grave-Troll often acts like a fine Sutured Ghoul without the need to exile parts of your graveyard :wink:. It just misses the trample.

[jimmythegreek]

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this. This deck runs plenty of re-occurring threats. Often times I'm looking for that last piece of the puzzle whether it be a dread return or my target and that extra card could very well be what I'm looking for. In a deck that makes tokens through bridge , narco's, ichorid and nether shadow all recurring threats it's very rare that I don't have the creature count to finish the job. This is a dread return deck before anything else. There's no reason not to play balustrade spy imho unless your on the blue variant in which case I would play rider. In the end your dread returns are one of your most valuable assets. When I dread return its for the win, not to get all grindy and cute with the opponent.

[slave]

I think (Dakmor Salvage) is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this.
Dead on. Agree 100%.
I see D&T quite a lot where I play, most times I go out I'll play against it actually. So I'll be taking along Ghasts again tonight to see how we test out again, despite the nagging thought I'm running a compromised (and not optimized) list.
But I like to change things up and try different things for the sake of it.:laugh:

I'm one of the very few people who play Dredge where I play, and so far taxing decks have been quite successful against me. They're usually able to lock me out of playing Therapies and Returns. I don't feel like Dakmor actually solves the problem, as these sorts of decks also tend to run Wasteland.
I'm thinking of taking along a modified sideboard with Vengeful Pharaoh and Leyline of the Void.
Usually I run Faerie Macabre, but the synergy with Pharaoh, Bridges and Leyline is making me dribble a bit.

[zzap]

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this. This deck runs plenty of re-occurring threats. Often times I'm looking for that last piece of the puzzle whether it be a dread return or my target and that extra card could very well be what I'm looking for. In a deck that makes tokens through bridge , narco's, ichorid and nether shadow all recurring threats it's very rare that I don't have the creature count to finish the job. This is a dread return deck before anything else. There's no reason not to play balustrade spy imho unless your on the blue variant in which case I would play rider. In the end your dread returns are one of your most valuable assets. When I dread return its for the win, not to get all grindy and cute with the opponent.

Dakmor is run because the pilot wants to run Bloodghasts not because he wants to dredge 2 instead of dredge 3. I don't understand your acute attention to this detail. Bloodghasts are better than Nethers, and that's why Dakmor is run. How is this a difficult concept? And how about this? Every dredge player knows how different games 2-3 are. Where's your sexy grindy time now? To me, hinging the deck on Returns is not a good idea. Play Reanimator; it has much better ways in bringing up your love handles from the grave.

But I guess I don't have much experience... sorries...

[Michael Keller]

Wait, how exactly are Bloodghasts "better" than Nether Shadow again?

[Rishadan]

Easier to trigger clause? I buy it.

[jimmythegreek]

Dakmor is run because the pilot wants to run Bloodghasts not because he wants to dredge 2 instead of dredge 3. I don't understand your acute attention to this detail. Bloodghasts are better than Nethers, and that's why Dakmor is run. How is this a difficult concept? And how about this? Every dredge player knows how different games 2-3 are. Where's your sexy grindy time now? To me, hinging the deck on Returns is not a good idea. Play Reanimator; it has much better ways in bringing up your love handles from the grave.

But I guess I don't have much experience... sorries...

I really don't know how to respond to this. Zzap is either a complete troll or a speculator of the arcetype who has little to no experience with manaless dredge. First off, I'm aware that people play dakmor for bloodghast. Second, I would really like to hear why blood ghast is better than nether shadow as well.Hhmmmm, is it because I get to dredge one less card to get a creature that most often can't attack the turn it came out? Blood ghast can't block, this tends to be a problem when your plan to grind out games with bridges on the swing back. Have fun dredging for two instead of six to get some limp body on the field. Now don't get me wrong I've grinded out my fair share of games with manaless but about 75% of my wins come from returning a spy. As far as games two and three go........sexy grindy time? Besides therapy, comboing out is your best opportunity to win the match, with almost every deck playing cantrips they will find their hate. I play manaless because it gives me two different avenues of attack where as reanimator is more linear. Most often I try to play the combo, if that fails then I have plenty of creatures to play the aggro role.

[Michael Keller]

Easier to trigger clause? I buy it.

Bloodghast is eons more conditional to trigger than Nether Shadow in Manaless Dredge.

[zzap]

I did say I was new.

I think both Nethers and Ghasts are conditional; I ran both, and I didn't see any major differences in grave-jumping. I do like the point of not being able to block, as I did run into times where I needed to block, but I had Ghasts for protection. But I would hardly call them limp bodies tho. Half the time they do not have haste, but that is offset by double the power. 2/1 is so much better than a 1/1, seriously. My last game against RUG Delver I had 3 Ghasts and 1 Dakmor Depths in the yard; I dredged 2, put a Weed and another Ghast in the bucket. I land-dropped for 4 2/1 wimpy bodies. 3 Batmans came along for the ride. My opponent couldn't handle it and tilted off the map.

I am no troll, but indirectly referring to my battleplans behind Manaless Dredge as Cute and Grindy picks at my nerves. I really love playing this deck; I know I play it differently, but I have a lot of fun. And I do feel that it is as competitive as the other builds here. I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

Happy testing!^^

[jimmythegreek]

I did say I was new.

I think both Nethers and Ghasts are conditional; I ran both, and I didn't see any major differences in grave-jumping. I do like the point of not being able to block, as I did run into times where I needed to block, but I had Ghasts for protection. But I would hardly call them limp bodies tho. Half the time they do not have haste, but that is offset by double the power. 2/1 is so much better than a 1/1, seriously. My last game against RUG Delver I had 3 Ghasts and 1 Dakmor Depths in the yard; I dredged 2, put a Weed and another Ghast in the bucket. I land-dropped for 4 2/1 wimpy bodies. 3 Batmans came along for the ride. My opponent couldn't handle it and tilted off the map.

I am no troll, but indirectly referring to my battleplans behind Manaless Dredge as Cute and Grindy picks at my nerves. I really love playing this deck; I know I play it differently, but I have a lot of fun. And I do feel that it is as competitive as the other builds here. I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

Happy testing!^^

Welcome to the thread! Generally speaking led dredge is a bit more grindy whereas manaless' gameplan allows for damage outside of combat most often through flayer of the hatebound. Prison effects along with stuff like ensnaring bridge make flayer an integral part of the deck. Without the speed of lands, draw spells and lions eye diamonds the combo element allows us to keep up with faster decks (especially with a deck that wants to go second.) Im all for testing different options with manaless. Extensive testing has gone into each and every card and certain cards have proven sub-optimal through real play testing. Creating the most optimal list is precedent.

[slave]

I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.
A lot of the time you'll be forced to play the grindy style of game if your opponent is well versed with how your deck works. But, but because gravehate can be so very *final* in legacy for Manaless, you will want to combo out whenever possible.
(obviously you know this, but there... I said it)
In both the examples you've just listed above, Dread Return combo into Flayer of the Hatebound is the win condition you want.

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

[zzap]

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

I like playing against D&T. XD But I think my list would fare better against them. I also kinda like Miracles, but that is a much different outcome. I have to stagger waves of beatdown, so that Term is barely manageable. But I like the matchup, as they don't usually run cage. I'd rather try to catch a RiP or Priest with FoWs than that evil one drop. TES is, well, TES. We are at their whim whether they get their pieces or not. Cabal is the gameplan there, and knowing what to Cabal. I flattened TES last night where he tried to combo off first turn. In game one, he ritualed, and I Shoaled; he ritualed again same turn, and I FoWed. He left.

Btw What is up with Storm players? I don't know; it's like if they don't hit their combo they just leave. They really don't care who is across from them, do they? I am not trying to start anything here. Perhaps it is just the players I've run into that have been poor sports.

[jimmythegreek]

A lot of the time you'll be forced to play the grindy style of game if your opponent is well versed with how your deck works. But, but because gravehate can be so very *final* in legacy for Manaless, you will want to combo out whenever possible.
(obviously you know this, but there... I said it)
In both the examples you've just listed above, Dread Return combo into Flayer of the Hatebound is the win condition you want.

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

D&t is by no means an easy match-up. Thalia is a total bitch to deal with, mom needs to be answered, stoneforge can be trouble and they probably have some number of rip in their board. Contagion seems good as well as sickening shoal if you run it (but your on blue if I remember correctly). This is all predicated on the fact that they havnt landed a thalia yet. An early therapy game one could definetly benefit naming thalia. The equipments in this deck can pose a problem especially with an active mom. Swords to plowshare on reccuring threats (especially ichy) really hurts when your trying to be cute and grindy. Against combo and faster decks chancellor has been a fucking all-star. I really never like siding that card out as it often gives us the turn we need to hopefully hit some gas or a therapy. Snt (both omni and ru snt) is very prevalent in my area. Annex can be the difference between a turn one snt and the opponent having to tap their ancient tomb to cast lotus petal.

[slave]

Btw What is up with Storm players? I don't know; it's like if they don't hit their combo they just leave. They really don't care who is across from them, do they? I am not trying to start anything here. Perhaps it is just the players I've run into that have been poor sports.
I don't know about poor sports, the guys running storm I know (cough cough occasionally me) usually just scoop when they know they're beaten and/or out of gas.
I think everyone who's played against Manaless knows how oppressive it can get once the yard fills up, maybe that's something to do with it?


Thalia is a total bitch to deal with, mom needs to be answered, stoneforge can be trouble and they probably have some number of rip in their board. Contagion seems good as well as sickening shoal if you run it (but your on blue if I remember correctly). This is all predicated on the fact that they havnt landed a thalia yet. An early therapy game one could definetly benefit naming thalia. The equipments in this deck can pose a problem especially with an active mom. Swords to plowshare on reccuring threats (especially ichy) really hurts when your trying to be cute and grindy. Against combo and faster decks chancellor has been a fucking all-star. I really never like siding that card out as it often gives us the turn we need to hopefully hit some gas or a therapy. Snt (both omni and ru snt) is very prevalent in my area. Annex can be the difference between a turn one snt and the opponent having to tap their ancient tomb to cast lotus petal.
Yeah I always struggle against D&T.
In the games I played against D&T this week, I got taxed out in both games 0-2. Pretty hard to win once they have a Thalia & Batterskull.
I've been trying to see if Dakmor actually helped this, as taxing is pretty common where I am. Turns out after the last two evenings out with Dakmor/Ghast, that Dakmor hasn't really made much difference at all in this matchup. I only had Dakmor Wastelanded once the whole night if anyone is curious.
On the nights I play LED-Dredge, I've been packing 14 lands and 3 Lotus Petals, as I like to get off to a flyer (or get around taxers), but I don't really see the need for petals in manaless.

[jimmythegreek]

I don't know about poor sports, the guys running storm I know (cough cough occasionally me) usually just scoop when they know they're beaten and/or out of gas.
I think everyone who's played against Manaless knows how oppressive it can get once the yard fills up, maybe that's something to do with it?


Yeah I always struggle against D&T.
In the games I played against D&T this week, I got taxed out in both games 0-2. Pretty hard to win once they have a Thalia & Batterskull.
I've been trying to see if Dakmor actually helped this, as taxing is pretty common where I am. Turns out after the last two evenings out with Dakmor/Ghast, that Dakmor hasn't really made much difference at all in this matchup. I only had Dakmor Wastelanded once the whole night if anyone is curious.
On the nights I play LED-Dredge, I've been packing 14 lands and 3 Lotus Petals, as I like to get off to a flyer (or get around taxers), but I don't really see the need for petals in manaless.

Dakmor coming in tapped......is it even worth it l wonder ? Maybe run dryad arbor main?

[slave]

Dakmor coming in tapped......is it even worth it l wonder ? Maybe run dryad arbor main?
Yeah I have to wonder.
For me, Arbor opens up some explosive plays but I would suggest Dakmor has it's upside too.
Whilst Dakmor (would only be in the list if Ghast was there, for me) is conditional at best, neither of these options offer a way past Wasteland to allow you to combo out.
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox & Lotus Bloom are all options here, but...... meh.

To be honest, I embraced the Ghast/Dakmor idea as a way to try and beat D&T, but they just have so many answers to us. One of the guys I play against packs RiP/Helm combo in the 60, so I don't think adding Dakmor is really going to help that when they're packing sets of Thalia, Vryn Wingmare & Phantasmal Image.

I can't help but feel Chancellor is our only real option here, given it's ability to slow them down from landing Thalia, RiP or the dreaded discard on turn1.
Fingers crossed from there... :cry:

Your thoughts?

[jimmythegreek]

Yeah I have to wonder.
For me, Arbor opens up some explosive plays but I would suggest Dakmor has it's upside too.
Whilst Dakmor (would only be in the list if Ghast was there, for me) is conditional at best, neither of these options offer a way past Wasteland to allow you to combo out.
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox & Lotus Bloom are all options here, but...... meh.

To be honest, I embraced the Ghast/Dakmor idea as a way to try and beat D&T, but they just have so many answers to us. One of the guys I play against packs RiP/Helm combo in the 60, so I don't think adding Dakmor is really going to help that when they're packing sets of Thalia, Vryn Wingmare & Phantasmal Image.

I can't help but feel Chancellor is our only real option here, given it's ability to slow them down from landing Thalia, RiP or the dreaded discard on turn1.
Fingers crossed from there... :cry:

Your thoI'mughts?

In another sense I would lump d&t into the combo/gotta beet em' fast type decks. Cabal therapy naming rip/thalia is key here and besides an opening with chancellor its mostly just cross your fingers. Playing blue I would try to hold up counter spell for either those two spells. Playing black I would bring in contagion to take out mom, this allows us to go beat-down without worrying about a protected batterskull. Tough matchup no doubt.

[slave]

(Death & Taxes) In another sense I would lump d&t into the combo/gotta beet em' fast type decks. Cabal therapy naming rip/thalia is key here and besides an opening with chancellor its mostly just cross your fingers. Playing blue I would try to hold up counter spell for either those two spells. Playing black I would bring in contagion to take out mom, this allows us to go beat-down without worrying about a protected batterskull. Tough matchup no doubt.
Completely agree.
Anyone that packs maindeck gravehate = we have to be quick. This is one of the reasons I love Force in the main so much.

Speaking of which;
I rarely play against Lands, I suspect due to the scary expense of the deck, but in the times I have they've wiped the floor with me unless I managed to combo out on turn2 or 3.
No grind it out, they just nuked me with hate and went on to beat me (eventually).
How have you guys fared against this deck?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Completely agree.
Anyone that packs maindeck gravehate = we have to be quick. This is one of the reasons I love Force in the main so much.

Speaking of which;
I rarely play against Lands, I suspect due to the scary expense of the deck, but in the times I have they've wiped the floor with me unless I managed to combo out on turn2 or 3.
No grind it out, they just nuked me with hate and went on to beat me (eventually).
How have you guys fared against this deck?

Lands is a pretty rough matchup for Dredge and always has been. Tabernacle is pretty hard to beat, and Wastelock (for mana Dredge) is also a huge problem. Comboing out asap and/or having a Dread Return target that can negate Glacial Chasm and/or Tabernacle (i.e. Ashen Rider) are the only real plans I think.

[Michael Keller]

Lands is a pretty rough matchup for Dredge and always has been. Tabernacle is pretty hard to beat, and Wastelock (for mana Dredge) is also a huge problem. Comboing out asap and/or having a Dread Return target that can negate Glacial Chasm and/or Tabernacle (i.e. Ashen Rider) are the only real plans I think.

Am I the only one who seems to think Lands is easy?

Faerie Macabre is the catch-all in this match-up, and I've tested it for years. As long as you blow them out early with it, they're stuck on whatever they have in their hands to beat you with. And Tabernacle isn't doing anything against Ichorids and Shadows - both of which have haste and still allow for a combo kill. Of course by the time an opponent has all of those cards in play like Chasm and Tabernacle, Ashen Rider would be your best best to win - but the truth is the deck doesn't have the steam to keep up with Manaless - it can only try to slow it down.

Force and Shoal eradicate any doubt in the early-goings against Crop Rotation and Sphere of Resistance, and hopefully by then you can just win.

[zzap]

Hello All!

How do you all fair against Opps All Spells? I have terrible issues with this deck; I even run Void in board. I always lose game one, and win game two. But then they transform their deck to Belcher, so they win game three. Is this just a bad matchup for Dredge? Perhaps I have the worse luck of all time or something. I run a full blue package as well, but they run cabals. It just seems like a matchup I could easily handle on paper, but it never turns out well. Is it me? Or is it the deck? Lol

[slave]

How do you all fair against Opps All Spells?
....
It just seems like a matchup I could easily handle on paper, but it never turns out well. Is it me? Or is it the deck? Lol
Storm/Fast combo is always hard to stop with Manaless, even the blue version. It's not just you.

Oops is a deck I've played on occasion (not very well I should add).
Given it's cute combo which is VERY vulnerable to extraction and counter, it's not a strong deck, but it can be a cheap one.

A version of Oops I've previously played is with Laboratory Maniac, Spy & Angel of Glory's Rise, but I prefer the version with Underworld Cerberus, being less combo pieces and more resilient (slightly). I used to run 1 Bridge from below in my version in case they killed my Narc's (which is rare I should add)
I should add this deck very rarely wins on T1 or T2 IME, so you should have at least a couple turns to find a Therapy, provided they don't use their's to stop your end of turn discard.

It can be tricky to stop, but remember the deck runs few card draw options, and outside of tutors like Spoils of the Vault & Living Wish, they typically don't have too many ways of finding business when they need it.
If you can get off a therapy or two you should be able to win.
They need 3-4 mana to go off. Mana isn't the problem for Oops, even if they mull aggressively, but lack of draw can really slow them down.

If you're playing counter, countering their Summoner's Pact can not only stop their combo, next turn it can kill them right there.
If they give you the chance to cast Therapy, I wouldn't be worried about them putting down gravehate, I'd be targeting their combo.
In game 1, I'd target Spy/Informer.
In game 2/3, you're gonna have to guess/probe whether they're on the same plan, or on belcher and act accordingly.
One of the quirks of Oops, is that they don't need to run Phantasmagorian, they prefer to use Therapy on themselves for turfing combo pieces to the grave.
Because of this, it won't always be possible for them to target your hand.

Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction & Contagion are options, as Dread Return being sorcery-speed enables us to kill their Narc's or Macabre their Angel/Maniac/Azami/Cerberus or extract combo pieces.
Bear in mind though, some versions like the one I used to use, run Bridge from Below, so Contagions' effect could be very dependent on the list you're facing.

Does that help?

[DarkJester]

If you're playing counter, countering their Summoner's Pact can not only stop their combo, next turn it can kill them right there.



Wait, thats not true. A countered pact will not create the delayed triggered ability. Or am I misinformed?

[slave]

Wait, thats not true. A countered pact will not create the delayed triggered ability. Or am I misinformed?
Oops... yeah you're right there. Sorry my bad.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think Lands is particularly easy as well. The cards we care about are Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Gamble as those accelerate their access Bojuka Bog. It's not going to be game over if you get hit by one either, but obviously if they can recur it, you're donezo.

To combat that one scenario they are wrecking us, I'm bringing in a total of 11 cards - 4 Force, 4 Shoal, 3 Surgical. To make space for all this, I take out combo pieces and Therapy. By doing this, you also blank their Trinispheres that they probably brought in since you will already have played your Probes. Then you get to play a little random numbers sub-game with your deck hopefully delivering early Ichorids as those are your MVP.

I suppose if they are truly adept with their deck, they could wait to expose Loam until they are behind a Trinisphere (Macabre still doesn't care though), but that also leaves them vulnerable to our explosiveness. It just feels like they are always getting squeezed from different angles by our deck and that gives us the upper hand most of the time.

[Daize]

Interesting idea.. though what usually happens with me is this: Trinisphere (neutralizing counters), and then everything else. Faerie Macabre really shines here though.

[zzap]

Greetings again!

I have changed to fearless build, for I play tested the blue package with mediocre results. I feel that the addition of counters makes the deck too inefficient in what it's supposed to do: dredge. We know this, but to go along the lines of combo, we need to be fast. Inefficient dredges defeats the concept of speed. I have also changed to a combo build in the sense that I increased Dread Returns and Griselbrands. I now consistently drop Grisel on turn two much more than I did before. Thanks for the ease in dealing with my tenacious aggro pitch; still aggro, but combo to seal wins faster.

Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing in my sideboard; I run 4 with great results. He does very well against Show and Tell matchups. Don't forget that you can drop him with their Show and Tell. If they drop Omni then Emrakul, you should be fine. Annihilator will hit Pharaoh and send him to the grave. Emrakul hits, not for lethal, then Pharaoh kills Emrakul. Either they have to chain Emrakuls, which reduces their combo effectiveness, or move to their Ant clash combo. I have chewed up a bunch of Edrazi in this fashion. I even killed an Iona while playing against Reanimator. I don't normally bring him in other aggro matchups, as I feel that the deck is speedy enough to deal with them. He is also anti Bridges, which makes for only sb material. Wondering if anyone else has tested this fella...

Happy Magicing!

[Daize]

Read the thread and you'll find answers.

[slave]

Greetings again!

I have changed to fearless build, for I play tested the blue package with mediocre results. I feel that the addition of counters makes the deck too inefficient in what it's supposed to do: dredge. We know this, but to go along the lines of combo, we need to be fast. Inefficient dredges defeats the concept of speed. I have also changed to a combo build in the sense that I increased Dread Returns and Griselbrands. I now consistently drop Grisel on turn two much more than I did before. Thanks for the ease in dealing with my tenacious aggro pitch; still aggro, but combo to seal wins faster.

Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing in my sideboard; I run 4 with great results. ....... Wondering if anyone else has tested this fella...
RE: Vengeful Pharoah, yeah he can be pretty good on occasion. I've tested him a fair bit, read though the last 4 or 5 pages or so to see some thoughts from a few of us.

RE: Blue VS Fearless.
Blue still has the same number of dredgers, Dread Returns and acceleration in Wraith/Probe from the lists I've seen.
Where blue misses out is the last few slots for Chancellor and Baubles.
Thing is, Manaless is dead to any fast deck that can win on T1 or T2, unless you have active counter.

You're consistently dropping G-man on turn2? I know it's all possible, but *consistently* is a big claim.
Could you post a list?

[Rivfader]

Am I the only one who seems to think Lands is easy?


I think Lands is particularly easy as well.

Are you guys talking about RUG or RG-Lands?

You probably have way more experience with Manaless than me, but I've been playing RG-Lands quite intensively for over a year now, and I have never lost the matchup versus dredge. That's just personal experience, but I'm pretty sure the Lands-matchup is unfavorable for Dredge. It is not just Bojuka Bog, that's just a setback. It's Glacial Chasm that's the problem, since dredge cannot beat a preboard Chasm + loam. And there's 8 1manatutors in Crop Rotation and Gamble to find them in time. There aren't many decks (perhaps none) with so many preboard solutions to Dredge as Lands. Besides that, Lands has a fast clock of its own.

Ofcourse there are postboard options, but since there's no mulliganing, you do need a fair share of luck to have them in the opening hand. Lands on the other hand will sideboard as well, up to 6 (trini)spheres, and can mulligan for these or the tutors / silverbullets.

[slave]

Are you guys talking about RUG or RG-Lands?
...
I've been playing RG-Lands quite intensively for over a year now, and I have never lost the matchup versus dredge.
I can't speak for the other boys, but I'm talking about that Lands deck with the Loam-engine, Bojuka Bog, Chasm, Dark Depths etc.
I've not had a large amount of time playing against this deck, but I've not done well against it at all.

[GoldenCid]

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.


I
SB: 3 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Unmask[/cards]

Sideboard decisions: I have had shoal miss too many times. When my opponent mulligans down to 5 and then is pleased. I want the FoW obviously, but if I can't find it with a Serum then I'll gladly Unmask, take that grave hate and wait 2 turns to start dredging. Its my preferred backup method of not auto-losing to RiP and the like.

Glad to see shoals out from sides! :)
I say this because in playtesting using this side:

4 FoW
4 Shoal
4 M. trap

i found shoal, even fow, very conditional cards. With fow, you need a blue card which become 16 if you side in 4 fow and 4 shoal with 4 probes and 4 moebas but with shoal you precisely need moeba to deal with rip and probe to deal with cage. This bothered me.

I'd prefer a side more like:

4 Trap
4 FoW
4 Unmask (you have extra black cards all time)
3 Macabre.

[mistercakes]

what's your guys maindeck lists look like nowadays? i've been using the same one on modo for a while, but have only had time to play in casual 1v1's. current list is still using 4 md FoW, 3 whirlpool rider and the rest of the usual suspects