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ironclad8690
07-03-2015, 01:41 AM
http://i.imgur.com/QPHW5Tu.jpg


I. Overview
II. History
III. Card Choices
IV. Sample Decklists
V. Sideboarding/Matchups
VI. Additional Info/Resources

I. Overview

Link to old thread here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28368-Deck-DRS-Grixis-(Grixis-Green))

Grixis Delver is a tempo deck, and like all other tempo decks, it seeks to get ahead on board early while simultaneously disrupting the opponent using cheap/free spells. Your creatures are the most mana efficient in the game and they reward deck construction that is based around instants and sorceries, which occupy about half of the deck. The spells are either countermagic which hinder your opponent's game plan by stopping their early/key spells, burn/removal to destroy opposing creatures and/or deal damage to your opponent, cantrips to find what you need when you need it, or discard spells to attack your opponent's hand to further restrict their resources. Ideally you will win the game by keeping your opponent off balance long enough for your creatures and burn to seal the deal.

II. History

Grixis Tempo has been around for a long time, but its current form began with the printing of Young Pyromancer. If not immediately answered, Young Pyromancer spirals out of control by producing too many elemental tokens for the opponent to deal with. Most deckbuilders opted to compliment Pyromancer with Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, and either Dark Confidant or Snapcaster Mage. With the release of Khans of Tarkir, Treasure Cruise gave the deck a nice Ancestral Recall effect, but that was banned shortly after being introduced into the format. Dig Through Time gave the deck a nice way to find what it needed as the game dragged on, but that too was banned. Finally, when Gurmag Angler was printed in Fate Reforged, the deck gained a nice large creature. The deck now has a very well rounded creature base without any singular weakness. Some people play either True-Name Nemesis or Vendilion Clique as an additional threat, but not usually more than 1-2 of either. With the April 24th 2017 banned and restricted update, the most commonly played predator of Grixis Delver (Miracles) has left the format. In the current metagame, Grixis Delver appears to be one of the strongest contenders. It has great cards for almost every matchup in the format, and can be tailored to most metagames.

III. Card Choices

Creatures:

Delver of Secrets: We play enough instants and sorceries to flip this guy about 46% of the time naturally, which is second only to RUG Delver in terms of flipping consistency (50% natural). Of course with Brainstorm and Ponder this becomes much higher. A 3/2 evasive flier for 1 U mana is just about the best aggressive creature ever printed.

Young Pyromancer: The card that really made this deck possible back when phazonmutant was testing the original version. It is basically like a Tarmogoyf, but red and weak to mass removal instead of Swords to Plowshares/grave hate. With the high spell count you are encouraged to play to be able flip Delver of Secrets, this guy naturally fits into the deck's strategy.

Deathrite Shaman: Fixes your mana, accelerates into playing more spells per turn, lessens your weakness to an early Wasteland, drains the opponent for life, gains life in a pinch, and lastly disrupts opposing graveyards. Deathrite Shaman truly is the workhorse of this deck. The acceleration is particularly great because you will usually want to cast a Young Pyromancer and a spell in the same turn, or at least have mana up after casting him.

Gurmag Angler: A 1 mana 5/5. generally good against things that Pyromancer is weak against, such as -1/-1 effects or large creatures. A great bonus to the Delve mechanic is being able to shrink opposing Tarmogoyfs, so delve wisely! Backed up by at least 1 other creature, the only things that get rid of him are Swords to Plowshares/Jace bounce/sweepers.

True-Name Nemesis: Usually only a 1 of if it is included. Resilient threat that has been warping legacy since it came out, and makes life especially hard for opposing fair decks.

Vendilion Clique: Some people play Clique instead of the True-Name Nemesis or int he slot of the 4th Young Pyromancer. Clique is great vs Miracles, Show and Tell, and generally solid vs most fair decks (though not quite as resilient in combat or against removal as True-Name Nemesis).

Dark Confidant: Used to be the primary source of card advantage, but his body is fragile and you can't really play him with Gurmag Angler. If you do choose to play him, try to keep your curve as low as possible.


Spells:

Brainstorm: Crucial cantrip and possibly best card in Legacy. Filter into the cards you need at the moment, whether that is creatures, removal, discard, counterspells, or lands, and put two cards back on top of your library to shuffle away with a fetchland.

Ponder: 2nd only to Brainstorm. Provides the same sort of effect, without the added bonus of being able to shuffle cards from your hand away.

Daze: Free countermagic, keeps your opponent from being able to cast stuff in the early game. This is your bread and butter in tons of matchups since early interaction is key in legacy.

Force of Will: More free countermagic. Can safely be boarded out in many fair matchups as the cost of a card is quite large.

Stifle: Mainly used on opposing fetchlands, but great vs many of the common effects in legacy like enter the battlefield triggers or planeswalker abilities. Can also counter an opposing Wasteland activation to protect your own lands.

Spell Pierce/Spell Snare: If you want to play more countermagic, you can play either of these or both in some combination, but they do not go as well with Young Pyromancer as more proactive spells like Cabal Therapy.

Gitaxian Probe: Viewing the opponent's hand is always good, and you will get a free token if you have a Pyromancer in play. Enables the awesome combo with Cabal Therapy to shred your opponent's hand.

Cabal Therapy: Most lists that play Stifle play this in the sideboard instead, but most non-Stifle lists include 2 in their maindeck and 1 in the sideboard.

Lightning Bolt: The removal spell of choice. Can also be aimed at opponent's dome.

Forked Bolt: Usually the next go to when you need more removal. Often a 2 for 1. Usually most lists play 1-2 if they play it.

Fatal Push: Usually used as supplemental removal in addition to bolt. Sometimes played in the sideboard as well.

Dismember: With Eldrazi in the format many people have chosen to play this over Forked Bolt. Great against opposing Anglers, Goyfs, Reality Smasher.

Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast: Depending on how blue your metagame is, you can play 1 in your maindeck and the rest in your sideboard. If you play 1 maindeck, make sure it is Pyroblast, as you can cast that at any time as long as there is a permanent in play to target to make a Pyromancer token. Between 2-3 of these is a good start.


Lands:

Volcanic Island: The most important land in the deck because it casts your blue spells and Bolt/Young Pyromancer/sideboard cards. Most lists play 3.

Underground Sea: Necessary to cast Deathrite Shaman & activate Deathrite Shaman's ability as well as cast Cabal Therapy/Gurmag Angler. Most lists play 2.

Tropical Island: If playing Deathrite Shaman, you will want 1 to be able to use all of his abilities.

Wasteland: 0 mana non-basic stone rain most of the time, colorless mana source when card casting spells.

Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta/Misty Rainforest/Scalding Tarn: Play some combination of these. Usually you will want 7-9 to be able to find your other lands and use Deathrite Shaman's mana producing ability.


Common Sideboard Choices:

Painful Truths: A nice Ancestral Recall effect that many play for grindy matchups. Pretty solid vs Miracles.

Pyroblast /Red Elemental Blast: You will want some combination of these in your sideboard to combat blue decks.

Cabal Therapy /Thoughtseize: Additional combo hate. Usually 1-4 in sideboards depending on maindeck configuration.

Flusterstorm: Great countermagic to have vs combo decks and decks with their own counterspells.

Invasive Surgery: Great against most combo decks. Some of the targets include Show and Tell, Reanimate, Exhume, Life from the Loam, Glimpse of Nature, Natural Order. Also good vs Miracles to counter Terminus, Entreat the Angels, or Council's Judgment.

Surgical Extraction /Grafdigger's Cage /Nihil Spellbomb /Tormods's Crypt: You will need graveyard hate, so play some combination of these. Cage also has the bonus of stopping Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order.

Disfigure/Dismember/Darkblast/Forked Bolt/Fatal Push: You will want some targeted removal spells in your sideboard for decks with creatures.

Electrickery /Marsh Casualties/Fire Covenant: You may want some "mass removal" that can take care of True-Name Nemesis, opposing Young Pyromancers, Elves, and a myriad of other small creatures.

Perish /Dread of Night /Virtue's Ruin /Deathmark /Submerge /Sulfur Elemental: White and Green creatures can be particularly annoying because they often do not die to lightning bolt and outclass many of our creatures in combat. You can play these cards to mitigate that weakness.

Null Rod /Ancient Grudge /Krosan Grip /Smash to Smithereens /Shattering Spree /Smelt: You need to be able to beat equipment and Chalice of the Void. Batterskull can spell doom for even the largest Elemental token army, and Young Pyromancer flinches at the thought of Jitte. Shattering Spree gets an honorable mention as the copies get around Chalice of the Void.

Kolaghan's Command /Rakdos Charm /Dimir Charm: Versatility is awesome to have, and if you don't mind the somewhat steeper mana requirements, these cards are great.

Diabolic Edict /Innocent Blood: You will possibly want to supplement your removal with some of these for creature decks/TNN, with Diabolic also having some use in Sneak and Show and Reanimator matchups.

Pithing Needle: Generic hate. Mainly used for Sneak attack, Mother of Runes, Thespian's Stage, Aether Vial, Equipment, with many many other applications.

Izzet Staticaster: This card is particularly powerful in the mirror match by letting you catch up to an opponent who has already produced some Elemenal Tokens, but also great vs Elves, Death and Taxes, Maverick, etc.

Liliana, the Last Hope: Good card vs small creature decks and control decks (due to the threat of her ultimate).

Sulfuric Vortex: A very powerful card against slow decks like Miracles, as well as decks with Lifegain effects like Stoneblade or MUD.

Baleful Strix: Good against Eldrazi and Gurmag Angler/Tarmogoyf/Opposing Delvers.



IV. Sample Decklist

Updated 3/7/2018

Bob Huang's list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana, the Last Hope


V. Sideboarding/Matchups (with help from LewisCBR and Bob Huang aka Griselpuff)

Vs. Grixis Delver

In the mirror match, being on the play is a very real advantage as it is difficult to ‘break serve’ in the mirror and win on the draw. However, you can gain edges with the mana denial plan, trading threats one for one until you land the last threat, or simply keeping your DRS around while killing your opponents DRSs. Taking your opponent off their two/three black sources with Wastelands can be a killing blow. Having hard to answer threats, like True-Name Nemesis, can often make the difference as well.

Suggested sideboard cards: Forked Bolt, Pyroblast, Electrickery, Flusterstorm, True-Name Nemesis, Grim Lavamancer, Marsh Casualties, Diabolic Edict

Vs. Storm

Like against many combo decks, Grixis Delver plays best by deploying an early threat and then disrupting your opponent to victory. Young Pyromancer and Delver of Secrets are your most potent threats and other creatures often get sided out. Countermagic, discard, and Stifle provide disruption that your Storm opponent usually must remove from your hand before combo'ing off. Stifle, in particular, can hit the Storm trigger, acting as additional countermagic that needs to be Thoughtseized, Duressed, or Cabal Therpy’d away. DRS can eat away at the opponent's graveyard, keeping them off threshold and preventing them from replaying important spells with Past in Flames.

Suggested sideboard cards: Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Null Rod, Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger’s Cage, Flusterstorm

Vs. Sneak and Show

Sneak and Show can be a very fast combo deck which results in a threat that Grixis Delver is almost incapable of dealing with. We don’t play Swords to Plowshares, or other hard removal spells, so the best way to beat this deck is to prevent their fatty from ever entering the battlefield. It’s important to side out clunky threats and to bring in additional countermagic and discard. Turn 2 can be pivotal as you want to be able to get a threat down, but also not lose while tapped out if that play happens to be a Young Pyromancer, choose your time to be aggressive carefully, but do not wait too long as they can cantrip into a well sculpted hand.

Suggested sideboard cards: Pyroblast, Pithing Needle, Flusterstorm, Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Diabolic Edict

Vs. Death and Taxes

Death and Taxes is a hatebear deck with mana denial. Their threats seem small and easy to deal with, but the innate disruption they provide, along with a strong mana denial plan, can make this matchup frustrating when your opponent if firing on all cylinders. The best opener for DnT is a turn 1 Aether Vial, followed up by Wastelands or Rishadan Port to attack your mana. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben further taxes your ability to play Magic. The best way to combat this deck is to shut off Vial and bring in as much removal as possible. Delver of Secrets and True Name Nemisis can be difficult for them to answer. Death and Taxes only usually plays 4 removal spells in the form of Swords to Plowshares, so if you kill their threats and shut down Vial you can often overwhelm them.

Suggested sideboard cards: Forked Bolt, Fatal Push, Ancient Grudge, Dread of Night, Sudden Demise, Kolaghan’s Command, Fire Covenant, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Marsh Casualties, Edicts, Liliana, the Last Hope

Vs. BUG Delver

The newest iteration of Delver is BUG Delver. While in the same colors as its older cousin, Team America, it is not the same deck. This ‘Delver Deck’ uses the term ‘Delver Deck’ loosely. It is more of a midrange deck that happens to also be playing Delver of Secrets. Due to that, Grixis Delver feels half a turn to a full turn faster, your best angle is to try to get under BUG Delver with mana disruption and counterspells for their expensive Liliana of the Veil’s. Multiple Hymn to Tourach can be back breaking and Tarmogoyf is a difficult to answer threat. Like all Deathrite Shaman mirrors, it is important to try and keep this card off the table for your opponent.

Suggested sideboard cards: Forked Bolt, Fatal Push, Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, Diabolic Edict

Vs. Elves

Elves is a creature based combo deck with a backup plan of simply running over you with a plethora of small green dudes. Ideally, this deck starts their combo with a Glimpse of Nature, plays endless elves, then finishes the job with a Natural Order for Craterhoof Behemoth. This plan can be difficult for Grixis Delver to stop. Countering one mana creatures, or a one mana Glimpse of Nature, doesn’t feel ideal, however you must control their board if you are to win. Removal spells are your best bet to keep them on their back foot, while you clock them with Delver of Secrets or True Name Nemisis. Gurmag Angler often is easily chump blocked or neutralized for no damage with a Wirewood Symbiote bouncing their blocker.

Suggested sideboard cards: Forked Bolt, Fatal Push, Grafdigger’s Cage, Sudden Demise, Electrickery, Fire Covenant, Marsh Casualties, Diabolic Edict

Vs. New Miracles

Miracles is back and more control oriented than ever. The deck has eschewed finishing cards like Monastery Mentor for more copies of Jace, The Mindsculptor and Entreat the Angels. While less consistent without Sensei's Divining Top, New Miracles has even more cantrip spells like Porent to try and find and cast their Miracle cards. At its core, the deck is still a removal deck. Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster re-casting Swords to Plowshares, and Terminus remain the heart of the deck and the reason why Grixis Delver can have a hard time beating it. All of our threats are creature based, which New Miracles is very good at cleaning up. It is important to strike hard and fast, while disrupting their mana, if possible, and attempting to get through the first Swords and/or Terminus. Your opponent will need double white and double blue to function well, which you can try to prevent. You cannot out grind this deck, the accepted best strategy is to try and get under them before they have time to get setup with a Jace.

Suggested sideboard cards: Flusterstorm, Sulfuric Vortex, Pyroblast, Winter Orb, True-Name Nemesis, Painful Truths, Liliana, the Last Hope, Invasive Surgery, Surgical Extraction (though don't rely too much on these).

Vs. Bant Deathblade

The latest version of Deathblade is four colors with up to 8 mana dorks that will ramp your opponent into big three drops, such as True-Name Nemesis and Leovold, Emissary of Trest. In addition, this deck plays Stone Forge Mystic and the typical package of equipment. Equipment, historically, has always been tough for Delver decks to handle. It’s important to kill the mana dorks on sight, to force your opponent to cast their three drop bombs into your Dazes. I like attacking the mana base with Stifles, too, as opposed to stripping away equipment with Cabal Therapy. Pyroblast hits both TNN and Leovold.

Suggested sideboard cards: Pyroblast, Forked Bolt, Fatal Push, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, Dismember, Marsh Casualties

Vs. Czech Pile/4c Control

This midrange frankenstein of a deck is like the love-child of Grixis and Sultai control. If they are allowed to develop their mana, they will often come out ahead with their superior card quality. It is our job to keep them off balance with mana-denial and close out the game with our harder-to-answer threats like Young Pyromancer, Gurmag Angler, and True-Name Nemesis. For the sideboarded games, I think you wan to cut Forces to minimize card disadvantage, and maximize your potential for 2-for-1s. Pyroblast cleanly deals with Strix and Leovold on the stack. Casualties can x-for-1 vs Strixes and Snapcasters, and if you get to 5 mana hits Deathrite Shaman too. Edict can be good vs Deathrite or Baleful Strix situationally. Ancient Grudge can deal with 2 Baleful Strixes, Liliana, the Last Hope can machine gun Strixes and Snapcasters all day, as well as possibly regrowing a fallen TNN. Spell Pierce can be a real backbreaker when countering a 3 or 4 mana spell.

Suggested sideboard cards: Pyroblast, Marsh Casualties, Liliana, the Last Hope, Ancient Grudge, Surgical Extraction (though don't rely too heavily on these).

Vs. Eldrazi Stompy

Hopefully you can avoid an early Chalice of the Void, as it can lock out much of your deck. You will want to deny their mana and ride your early pressure to victory. Sometimes they will have Cavern of Souls draws that you can't really beat, but this doesn't happen all that often. Ancient Grudge and Diabolic Edict out of the board are all-stars. Countermagic and/or Probes can be shaved to make room.

Suggested sideboard cards: Diabolic Edict, Baleful Strix, Ancient Grudge.

Here are some matchup notes from Bob Huang after the most recent large tournament (SCG Wor), which featured 4 Grixis Delver decks in the top 8

Out of the non-Grixis Delver Top 8 decks, here's how I feel about their match-up vs Grixis Delver. This is all assuming I'm playing against a top caliber player

1) Miracles - bad match-up, game 1 is unfavored and post sb is 50/50. Overall 45%
2) Eldrazi - depends a lot on their build. 45-50%
3) Elves - Stop them from untapping with anything and their deck doesn't function. 50%
4) Lands - Play Edicts/Surgicals, you are quite favored post sb. 55-60%

Overall, Grixis Delver can adapt to beat anything pretty much, even more so than Miracles. The blue control decks that beat Grixis Delver are a small favorite against it, but they suffer a lot in other match-ups.

Other various decks people play that "beat Grixis Delver"
D&T - 55% (and that's only if you're quite good, otherwise 60%+ vs D&T)
BUG Delver, Czech Pile - 50%, depends on list
Bant DeathBlade - 50% if Grixis has Marsh Casualties
4C Loam - 50% (only if they're good, otherwise 55%)
ANT - 50%, would be more if we tried to beat it, but they care more about beating us than vice versa with current builds
Turbo Depths - 50-55%
Moon Stompy - 45% right now, would be more if I cared about beating it

So overall I was pretty conservative with my estimates, and again they are against "top caliber" players, which is like 5% or less of players. So against weaker players add like ~10% to those numbers. My own win rate is about 80% of matches in the past few months.

VI. Additional Info/Resources

Streamers/Videos:

Bob Huang - https://www.twitch.tv/griselpuff/videos/all

Andrea Mengucci - https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-grixis-delver-3/

TC Decks Video Library (Tournament Footage) - http://tcdecks.net/results_videos.php?token=Videos&tname=&from=&to=&player=&aname=Grixis+Pyromancer&format=Legacy

Articles:

Jeff Hoogland - Building Grixis Delver (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35495_Building-Grixis-Delver.html)

Jeff Hoogland - Playing Grixis Delver (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35560_Playing-Grixis-Delver.html)

Pat Chapin - Grixis In Modern and Legacy (DTT era, but much of the tech remains) (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30905_Grixis-In-Modern-And-Legacy.html)

Eric Froelich - Deck of the day (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-grixis-delver/)

jrsthethird
07-16-2015, 11:45 PM
Nobody's talking about this deck? Well here's the list I'm playing on MTGO. Pretty much Noah Walker's list, but I cut his one-ofs in favor of Stifles and swapped a couple cards from the sideboard. Been pretty happy with it; makes me feel good alternating between this and PSI since coming back to the game. I picked this up because I used to play New Horizons, and a high-placing tempo deck just called for me.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig Through Time

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

// Sideboard
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember

Some notes while testing this:

I started with his build, but missed Stifle and bought them. I played this with -1 DTT and +1 TNN, and rarely ever ended up casting the TNN. I think I pitched it more to FOW than actually playing it. Went back up to 2 DTT and been satisfied ever since.

I tried a couple Charms in the sideboard and found I never really wanted them. I think I board in Clique every game; one of my favorite cards but I feel like the main is so tuned that there's not any room for Game 1. Once you know what you're facing though Clique just feels better to me. Same thing with Therapy.

Noah's build ran 2 Cages and 1 Submerge. I accidentally bought 2 Submerges and 1 Cage when I made this, and I've been totally happy with it. Not a lot of Dredge players on MTGO (or I've just avoided them); I think I only ran into it once. Part of me also feels bad accidentally investing $17 into a card I'm not running. It's a stupid reason, but whatever. It's helped me blow out some of the green decks. Seems good against Lands/Aggro Loam, but I haven't seen either of those decks on MTGO yet. Probably a price concern. Cage isn't good against them either, so if they pop up, maybe a Tormod's Crypt or Surgical would be better.

I'm not sure on Darkblast/Electrickery. Neither one of them have come up very often for me. I've been blown out by equipment before, so another artifact hate might come in useful. Kolaghan's Command looks interesting, and they come down late game so 3 mana isn't a huge issue. Plus it kills the equipment AND the target. There's a decent amount of Show and Tell online, so I'm thinking Edict would be useful too. The first couple lists I played were Ug, so I thought Submerge would do the trick, but then I realized most of them are mono-U or Ur.

ironclad8690
07-18-2015, 01:57 AM
I like your deck. Stifle is certainly attractive with all of the miracles online. Kolaghan's command has been pretty good for me so far, but I have to test it more.

AfroSmile
07-21-2015, 04:19 AM
Maybe for the primer:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28368-Deck-DRS-Grixis-(Grixis-Green)
It's the old thread for this deck.

Grixis-Green Delver => GG Delver :cool:

zebhillard
07-22-2015, 12:24 AM
This is likely what I'm going to be running this upcoming weekend at a local Legacy event, taking a break from Pox to get some real interaction going. I am undecided on Stifle's in the main or Cabal Therapy, though. Also, Anglers vs TNN. Both are good, I'm just not sure which is better.

As for the SB, I'm leaning toward this:
3 Cabal Therapy (if I run them in the main, this slot will likely be 1 Null Rod, 1 Tsabo's Web, 1 Engineered Plague)
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Pierce
1 Hydroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dack Fayden (This or Kolaghan's Command is the current question)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Or +1 Clique)

The meta here is pretty diverse and not many people are stuck on pet decks, so variety has to be prepared for.

jrsthethird
07-22-2015, 04:52 AM
Stifle has so much utility that it's rarely disappointing game 1. I tested against Stoneblade last night and that card gave me such an upper hand. Hitting fetches early, and then hitting Stoneforge ETB late game so he couldn't recover. It's also blue for FOW, which is relevant.

I usually side out FOWs and some amount of Stifles games 2/3. If they're expecting it, just playing around it might slow them down or throw them off a bit. Games 2/3 Therapy is better than game 1 since you know what they're playing for sure. However, in a small local, you'll likely know before the match, but I play on MTGO so YMMV.

Angler has been total BOSS for me. TNN is cute but when I had him as a 1-of I was never really impressed. Sometimes game 1 Angler wins will get people to side in Relics/Crypts, and those are wasted spots against us IMO. 4/5 Delve cards and a couple Therapies is a rather fair usage of the graveyard; I'm happy to see them water down their deck for a marginal advantage against a couple of our cards.

How's Dack been for you? Been thinking about that guy a lot.

zebhillard
07-22-2015, 05:12 AM
I haven't used him yet, but I'd rather have him than K. Command to deal with Equipment if the problem arises. I know he was much bigger in control when Cruise was legal, but to be able to just drop him and thief a Jitte or Sword is a big plus. A 2-for-1 from Command is nice, but all the DTT fuel is hard to pass up.

Timbeef
07-23-2015, 01:54 PM
I've become a really big fan of this deck lately. The ability to throw almost any good card in the deck is really sweet. I'm currently on something very similar to jrsthethird, but I'm currently testing a 1 of Fire//Ice and 2 Thoughtseize instead of the probes. I kind of like the decks that have the forked bolt, but whenever I can play this card, I always try Fire//Ice, too. Especially since we're running DRS, the mana shouldn't really be an issue, and it allows us to cycle it or pitch to FoW, as well as being instant.

Draggo
07-31-2015, 07:09 AM
Hey, first of all, I'm new to posting on this forum, but I've been watchng alot of legacy deck threads.

I'm looking for people who have experience in playing Grixis Tempo. There are like 3 threads on the forum with decklists matching what I've been playing for several years now. This thread seemed to be the most recent one.

The decklist I'm currently running:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig Through Time

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

/Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dead // Gone
1 Electrickery
2 Pyroblast
1 Dispel
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Terminate


Cards I have played along the road with succes:

2 Tombstalker in the main, but this is before the Khans set and I had to run an extra Underground Sea instead of Tropical Island
3-4 Young Pyromancer in the main deck, together with 2-4 Cabal Therapy main and side
1-2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang in the main
2-4 Sultai Scavenger in the main
1-3 Spell Snare in the main and/or side
1 Murderous Cut main
2-3 Treasure Cruise when they were legal to play


Quick history:
I started of playing the deck with 4 Deathrite/Delver/Pyromancer and 2 Tombstalkers as creatures, backed up by the Fow/Daze/Bolt and Therapy as discard in the main deck. Switched to using Stifle, moving the discard to the sideboard wich added more lines of play and actually turning into a Tempo deck.
Later on I dropped Tombstalker for newer/better delve cards and gone towards a more direct approach using 4 Deathrite/Delver/Sultai Scavanger/TNN and Spell Snares to hit quick and finish before the opponent had a chance to settle board control. (really effective against any type of BUG/ANT simply becouse they can't get rid of the Scavangers in time and Snares countering their key cards)
Tasigur took some spots away from the Scavangers in order to deal opposing big creatures that came trough and later on swapped for Angler becouse of the 1 power difference and legendary status.

The sideboard cards are basicly cards I have good experience with using in the local meta and switch from time to time.


So, what do other Grixis Tempo players use these days and why?
Also looking for some feedback in general to the deck.

jrsthethird
07-31-2015, 09:28 AM
How has the Badlands been for you? You only have 10 black or red spells main, almost seems better to have an Underground Sea, so you always have U available. I tried one when I first picked up the deck and hated it.

3 Spell Pierce is nice. Do you ever miss the Pyromancer though?

How often do you side in Dimir Charm? What matchups do you like it in? Abrupt Decay is obviously really good, but do you ever have issues with one green source in the deck? This is why I don't run it.

I agree with Angler over Tasigur though. I never tested Tasigur, but I always enjoyed the extra power, and it also seems relevant that Miracles has no cards at 7 mana to flip for him. I'm playing a Grixis Control deck now too, and Tasigur is better there, since we have more mana and can actually use his ability. Without that, no question, Angler is better.

ThiefSlayer
07-31-2015, 10:30 AM
Hey guys,

Seems like Grixis Delver is really a versatile archetype, as there are lots of different lists from it. Mine is different from the ones posted previously here.

Actually I was thinking about playing the old UR Burn Delver list (with guide, POP, chain lightning, bolt, 1-of thunderous wrath, etc), but I spent the last months of 2013 and the whole last year playing it, so I thought I should play something different. I didn't get some list on the internet, actually had no time to search for it so I made up some list quickly, which still had a good result.

I changed 4 goblin guide for 4 pyromancers, and then put 2 gurmag, 2 kolaghan's command, 1 tasigur and 1 extra land, instead of 4 chain lightning and 2 POP. The list was something like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp


Side:

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Smash to smithereens
1 Terminate
1 Dismember
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce

I played a 3 round tournament (really small), got 2-0-1 and split the prize, but it was enough that I could get the idea from the deck

1º I didn't play against any wasteland deck, but still the swamp felt pretty unnecessary. Guess I will just take it off from the deck, as I also think it could run with 18 lands.
2º The deck felt pretty good in long grindy games, but also pretty fast if needed against combo, with delver + bolt + snapcaster hands full with protection.
3º The sideboard felt pretty lame, as I didn't explore the black color in it, I think I should've run at least 1of darkblast against small creatures deck.
4º Daze sounded kinda weird in this list with 4 snapcaster+kolaghan. I guess it works well in people's list that got good results, but not in this one.
5º DTT sounds like would've been a good card for this deck, but I'm not sure how could be the split between the GY cards: SCM, DTT, Gurmag and Tasigur

Overall, even though this list was kinda weird, it sounded reeeally strong. Which means this deck is awesome, as I'm sure I can make some adjustments to make it actually good, I guess.

PS.: Cabal therapy with probe, a 1-of clique for information and pyromancer plus other cheap creatures for it to be flashed back is really bananas against combo decks. That's the one thing I'm sure I will keep, 4-of cabal therapy in the sideboard.

Draggo
08-01-2015, 02:05 PM
How has the Badlands been for you? You only have 10 black or red spells main, almost seems better to have an Underground Sea, so you always have U available. I tried one when I first picked up the deck and hated it.

3 Spell Pierce is nice. Do you ever miss the Pyromancer though?

How often do you side in Dimir Charm? What matchups do you like it in? Abrupt Decay is obviously really good, but do you ever have issues with one green source in the deck? This is why I don't run it.


I think the Badlands is actually really good and not replacable by Sea or Volcanic. Becouse of that one Badlands it's really hard to deny you black, red or blue by using Wastelands. It can be awkward to have sometimes in your starter hand, but besides that, it's almost always good. One in every 100 matches it happends that I don't have blue becouse of it, I'll take that chance if it fixes 80+% of Wasteland.deck metch-ups. Also, it's not bad having a black mana open to use for Deathrite or Bolt/Red Blast out of the Badlands. You'll have blue mana open for counters that way.

Sometimes I miss the pyromancers, but against a lot of decks, the only thing Pyromancer is doing is proloning the game, witch can be counter productive since I try to deny the enemy the ability to get into the game (using cheap counters, Stifle and Wasteland).

About Dimir Charm:
It's really good. I even ran it main deck with succes for a while. It's another counter against Miracles and Storm decks and on the other hand able to kill almost any ulitity creature in Legacy (Deathrite/Mother of Runes/any random Elf/Stoneforge/Confidant).
I board is against decks who have either sorcery spells I want to counter, or small creatures, like the ones I just listed. But that's obvious.

About About Decay:
Really powerfull card, but becouse I run only one green mana source, I almost never board it. Basic rule I use when to use it or when not: "does the enemy have Wasteland?" > Yes: don't use it > No: use it. You do need to realize that you'll have to fetch towards Tropical. Going Tropical into Badlands will give you the ability to play all cards in the main deck and sideboard. Genrally I never fetch towards Tropical becouse of the awkward green, unless you really need it in combination with Shaman.

@ThiefSlayer
The decks seems nice, but more straight foreward like UR burn/tempo. Not having Wasteland/Stifle changes how you play the deck alot.

AfroSmile
08-02-2015, 02:36 AM
Abrupt Decay is obviously really good, but do you ever have issues with one green source in the deck? This is why I don't run it.


If the deck really want to run abrupt decay, it may be better to consider is cousin bUrg Tempo.

lampsa
08-06-2015, 08:21 AM
Has anyone else been testing with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? I find him a solid addition to the deck, and I currently considering making him a 2-of. The card, in my opinion, is pure value: it fixes your hand, holds of an attacking Delver of Secrets, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage etc., lets you attack through a Baleful Strix, and provides a sorcery speed snapcaster effect.

I play a non-wasteland version of grixis delver mostly due to ridiculous Wasteland prices in MTGO.

Draggo
08-07-2015, 08:06 AM
Without Wasteland/Stifle, I feel like it's missing the point of being a tempo deck.

Jace might be a solid card in a more control version of Grixis, like Grixis Control/Pyromancer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28859-DTB-Grixis-Control-Thieves here a thread for it) or 4C Delver.

I also have to agree with AfroSmile that if you want to run Decay, you might want to be playing BURG instead of Grixis. On the other hand, becouse you have a single Tropical Island, it's possible to splash green into the sideboard. So far, I really like 2 Decay in the side, but you should not bring it in in certain match ups. Edit: I don't really see a substitude for this card either in the BRU spectrum.

Mammutti
08-14-2015, 03:28 PM
I played Grixis Delver for the first time at my LGS weekly Legacy (18 players) and GP London side Event (40 players).

Main Deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=89116

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Submerge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental

Weekly Legacy:

Grixis Delver w Snapcasters 2-0
Goblins 2-0
Grixis Delver 2-0
Infect 1-2

3-1

GP London side event:

Infect 2-0
Team America 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-1
Grixis Swiftspear 2-0

4-0

The deck feels very strong at the moment and I would not be surprised to see it reaching DtB status by the end of September. Submerge was amazing against Infect and Tarmogoyfs. Did not face any combo decks and the only time I brought in Cabal Therapies was against DnT (2) to combat SFM.

I used my SCG prize wall tickets from the side-event to buy 3 Alliances and 3 Khans boosters. There was a massive Force of Will poster standing next to me while I was weighting my options and it looked straight into my eyes telling me there's a foil Delta and a FoW waiting for me on the other side... I opened 2 Gorilla Shamans and an Elvish Spirit Guide, zero fetches. Oh well.

Golgari_Mage
08-17-2015, 03:12 AM
So I've been trying out both this deck and the Control version and I have to ask, how does one beat a resolved Countertop lock? I've had so much trouble with Miracles when I can't find the discard needed or the opening to Pyroblast the Counterbalance. Any tips?

Manipulato
08-17-2015, 05:53 AM
So I've been trying out both this deck and the Control version and I have to ask, how does one beat a resolved Countertop lock? I've had so much trouble with Miracles when I can't find the discard needed or the opening to Pyroblast the Counterbalance. Any tips?

Options g1 are -> early Cabal on they´re hand, FoW, Daze, Pierce, Snare, Pyroblast
Options g2 are -> Abrupt Decay (With the 1off Tropical in the manabase), Pithing Needle, Null Rod, more Pyroblasts.

Thats it, this is the reason why I prefer 4c Delver over this...

Greetings

Whitefaces
08-17-2015, 09:16 AM
Options g1 are -> early Cabal on they´re hand, FoW, Daze, Pierce, Snare, Pyroblast
Options g2 are -> Abrupt Decay (With the 1off Tropical in the manabase), Pithing Needle, Null Rod, more Pyroblasts.

Thats it, this is the reason why I prefer 4c Delver over this...

Greetings

I've found CB a huge problem too.

Mostly been on the control version, so even weaker to CB, but I'm sure it applies to both builds. Therapy/Pyroblast are fine vs the stock Ponder miracles without daze, but on the draw you can't do anything if they jam it T2 and have Daze backup or a Brainstorm T1 to hide it from Therapy.

I've gone through loads of ideas and it really is play a Trop and Decays or drop the deck.

Draggo
08-23-2015, 05:24 PM
You can either hope to counter the CB with Snare/Pierce/FoW/Daze and win the counter war, or push tokens if you run Pyromancer and/or Angler, depending on what you have in play and what you play in the main deck.
Also mana denial is really strong for this. Being able to deny double blue with Wastelands or slow down by forcing to fetch basic lands.

This is one of the reasons I run the 2 Decay sideboard (having the one-off Trop main). Grabbing both Decays, both Pyroblast and the Null Rod helps in the match-up.

ironclad8690
08-29-2015, 06:00 PM
So, after the past couple of weekends, I think it is safe to assume that this deck is probably the most well positioned of all of the delver variants in the current metagame.

Bob Huang's list appears to be stock considering the amount of 7-1 or better finishes at the most recent invitational that copied his list almost exactly (with bob himself making an appearance there):


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig Through Time
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Dread of Night
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Ancient Grudge


Also, I found an interesting article by Dennis Ulanov, a well known tempo pilot, in which he explains his card choices and sideboarding vs some common strategies:

http://articles.kirwansgamestore.com/2015/07/grixis-delver-in-legacy/

I am going to update the primer with his information.

jrsthethird
08-29-2015, 09:38 PM
Also, I found an interesting article by Dennis Ulanov, a well known tempo pilot, in which he explains his card choices and sideboarding vs some common strategies:

http://articles.kirwansgamestore.com/2015/07/grixis-delver-in-legacy/

I am going to update the primer with his information.

Great find and subsequent edit. I'd add the link to the primer though, instead of just his name.

ironclad8690
08-30-2015, 12:41 AM
Great find and subsequent edit. I'd add the link to the primer though, instead of just his name.

Done.

Jaytron
09-01-2015, 12:53 PM
I'm fairly certain this should be in DTB according to the numbers.

That being said, I'm new to legacy and jumping into this deck. The primer has been very helpful, thank you!

Does anyone know how the stock Delver list deals with Miracles? (w/o the Sulfiric Vortex)

Also, how does the deck deal with Lands?

Delvis
09-01-2015, 04:24 PM
I'm fairly certain this should be in DTB according to the numbers.

That being said, I'm new to legacy and jumping into this deck. The primer has been very helpful, thank you!

Does anyone know how the stock Delver list deals with Miracles? (w/o the Sulfiric Vortex)

Also, how does the deck deal with Lands?

The stock list beats Miracles by never letting them assemble CB+SDT. If they do, game over. You have no way to crack that without Abrupt Decay. You can Pyroblast the CB, but they can just flip the Top to counter any 1cc spell. You can win under CB+SDT if you already have pressure on the board, or if you can resolve YP through it and start making Elementals, but even then they can just Miracle Terminus and reset.

Post-board it gets even more brutal because they can Moon you out of the game. Be careful and don't board out too many Bolts, because they bring in creatures post-board and an unchecked Mentor will just run you over.

I really want to cut green (so I can run basics for Moon resiliency), so I'm searching for a way to beat them without Abrupt Decay. Still haven't found it.

As for Lands, Deathrite Shaman is your friend. Eating their lands in response to Loams, or eating their Loams/Punishing Fires are both plays that are so incredibly important to winning the matchup, it's insane. In game 1, you need a draw with a lot of pressure backed up by just enough permission to get there. Counter Exploration whenever possible. If you can stop that from resolving, they have a tough time keeping pace with your threats.

Some sideboard options are Surgical Extraction/Extirpate (which is devastating to them), Submerge/Vapor Snag/other bounce to deal with Marit Lages, and other fringey stuff like Tsabo's Web. I've seen TNN do wonders because they struggle to interact with it. Extraction is by far your best card, followed closely by Deathrite. I also play Snapcaster Mage in SB, which expands my effective number of Extractions.

(Be careful if you're using Extirpate to target Punishing Fire, because they can buy it back with a Split Second spell on the stack. The two abilities involved are a mana ability and a triggered ability, neither of which are restricted by Split Second.)

ironclad8690
09-01-2015, 04:36 PM
I'm fairly certain this should be in DTB according to the numbers.

That being said, I'm new to legacy and jumping into this deck. The primer has been very helpful, thank you!

Does anyone know how the stock Delver list deals with Miracles? (w/o the Sulfiric Vortex)

Also, how does the deck deal with Lands?

Yeah, the numbers for this deck are counting towards "Grixis Pyromancer" because of Tcdecks classifications, which have not differentiated between Grixis Control and Grixis Delver. Unfortunate, but what can you do :/

Anyhow, Miracles is a tricky matchup. Counterbalance + Top locks you out pretty hard, so you will be trying to pressure them as best as you can. From watching coverage of this match, it seems to me like the best goal game 1 is to flood the board with pressure early and try to keep Terminus from resolving. If you can create a substantial amount of pressure before Countertop hits the board, you should be in a good position to win.

Game 2 and 3, you can bring in all of your Pithing Needle/Null rod effects, as well as Pyroblasts and Cabal Therapies to attack the hand. You will likely want to board out some number of Bolts (not all if you expect Mentor), some Dazes (depending on how hard they play around them), and some Deathrite Shamans (they don't pressure the Miracles player hard enough and give them more value from Terminus). Sulfuric Vortex really does help here, and I recommend finding space for 1 because it is a common matchup.

Lands is a tough match because Tabernacle will always hurt when you have Young Pyromancer. Deathrite Shaman is an MVP if you can keep him alive to eat lands and P Fire, also note that it might be worth countering a Punishing Fire if you can eat it the following turn with DRS. Gurmag Angler is your quickest path to victory, as it forces them to either find Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm in a matter of turns. You have to be really picky with wasteland because if you use it frivolously you might get Marit Laged out of nowhere. Counter the Explorations/Manabonds because they enable them to be too explosive. Lands is designed to beat decks like this one, so don't feel bad if you are struggling with the matchup.

Postboard bring in Surgicals and Pithing Needle removing forked bolt and a couple Probes (I might be wrong here, not much experience with the matchup, I think you need Counterspells g2&3).

ironclad8690
09-01-2015, 11:28 PM
Just went 3-0 in a daily event on magic online.

I used the exact same list as Alex Bastecki (can be found here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90454)) because it looked really balanced to me and I love Dread of Night.

MUD: 2-0

Game 1: He chalices me out on turn 1. I have mentally given up, but I decide to wasteland him since there are 3 in my hand. He plays a Cavern on contsruct, which I wasteland, and then another cavern, which I wasteland. He doesn't play anything else after that, so I drop a couple lands and play a Pyromancer. He can't find a land in time, so I progressively make tokens and eventually swarm him out before he can do anything.

Game 2: I establish a pretty quick board and grudge a Lodestone Golem. I am able to keep him low on mana with wastelands, but he lands a Wurmcoil engine. I cantrip into the 2nd red source I needed to play the Sulfuric Vortex in my hand, and I play it and attack for the win.

Merfolk: 2-1

Game 1: I play turn 1 Delver while he plays an Aether Vial. I play a Young Pyromancer, he untaps, plays cavern on merfolk, and Chalice, which I Daze (had drawn it this turn luckily), he forces removing a lord, and I force back removing a spell pierce. This leaves him very low on resources, and my Delver /Pyro/Elemental army crush him.

Game 2: He gets an early chalice to resolve after I play a couple creatures, but he plays lords and uses vial to great extent. I am crushed this time.

Game 3: I get turn 1 Delver again, and he goes Mutavault -> Aether Vial. I play DRS and leave up spell pierce instead of playing Young Pyromancer, because I am afraid he has a Chalice. I am able to counter Chalice @ 1, he only has an Aether Vial + relic of progenitus on the board. He plays his 2nd Mutavault, I probe him and it looks like he kept his hand based on that Chalice, which I see after Probing him to reveal two islands. He Echoing Truths my 2 flipped insects, but it doesn't buy him enough time against me, and I play both back out. I cantrip into Young pyromancer further sealing the deal, and the game ends in short order as he has no clock.

Esper Stoneblade: 2-0

Game 1: I attack him pretty low with two flipped Delvers, he EEs for 0. We play back and forth a bunch (many Young Pyromancers and DRS get STP'd/Supreme Verdicted), but I land a Gurmag Angler that goes unanswered. He plays Lingering souls and stalls for 4 turns, but can't draw an out to the angler. If he had drawn Jace, it would have been game over, but I was lucky.

Game 2: My early creatures get STP'd, but I get a flipped delver. He plays and flashes back lingering souls, making my Delver look pretty bad. I was a step ahead though, and luckily I brought in Dread of Night, which conveniently was in my hand, so I play it, and it resolves. I get in for some more points, he recovers with Snapcaster Mage -> STP. I play an Angler, but he has another Snap -> STP. I land a Delver, and brainstorm seeing 3 lightning bolts with him at 12 life. He doesn't have an answer to the delver, and swings, but my life total is at 25 from STPing that he did. I flip Delver, swing him down to 9, bolt him to 6, and pass with a bolt in hand (only 1 red source). This is his last chance to get back in the game, he Digs through time, but doesn't get what he is looking for (a Swords to Plowshares + land I think, but he doesn't get 1 or the other), and I swing and bolt him to death.

I was really really lucky today, definitely stole matches that I had no business winning (such as against Chalice @ 1, finding my 1 outer Sulfuric Vortex vs Wurmcoil, and a very timely Dread of Night), but hey, that's the name of the game.

Delvis
09-02-2015, 09:00 AM
Postboard bring in Surgicals and Pithing Needle removing forked bolt and a couple Probes (I might be wrong here, not much experience with the matchup, I think you need Counterspells g2&3).

I've played a couple of games against the common RG build and I'm still unsure of the right call here. I actually have more experience playing against the slower but more resilient RUG list with Intuition, and I've typically kept some number of counterspells in. If you can interact with a Chalice on 1 and/or an Exploration/Manabond without counterspells, you have less of a need, but you really need to be interacting with those spells. Stopping Gamble/Intuition is also okay; it slows them down but it doesn't stop them, although sometimes the game ends if they resolve these. It can also occasionally be a good play to counter a P.Fire or Loam and then eat it with DRS or Surgical Extraction it, as you said. Lately, Lands has been bringing in Molten Vortex against Delver decks, and that's another 1cc spell that you don't want to allow to resolve.

Overall, I think there are enough actual spells that you want to be interacting with that leaving in counterspells is reasonable. The question would be which ones do you keep... that's a tough call. Daze seems bad, but then again most of the spells you want to stop are turn 1 plays. OTOH, the card disadvantage from FOW can be crippling, especially if you have to pitch a Delver to cast it. A better player than me will have to weigh in.

Jaytron
09-02-2015, 08:05 PM
Doing some practice games vs my buddy's Omnitell deck.. Using Alex Bastecki's list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/318067#paper

What is the sb plan vs omni typically?

+2 Pyro
+1 REB
+4 Cabal
+1 Clique
+2 Surgical Extraction

Had a hard time deciding what to take out

-4 Bolts, -1 Forked bolt was easy

Do you pull out DRS as it doesn't do that much? Probably pull out 1 delver or young peezy for Clique?

ironclad8690
09-03-2015, 12:29 AM
I'd probably pull a DRS or two and maybe 1 Wasteland, at least 1 Angler, but I wouldn't cut Delver or Pyromancer. They are the tools that allows you to win the quickest.

KobeBryan
09-03-2015, 12:40 AM
Doing some practice games vs my buddy's Omnitell deck.. Using Alex Bastecki's list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/318067#paper

What is the sb plan vs omni typically?

+2 Pyro
+1 REB
+4 Cabal
+1 Clique
+2 Surgical Extraction

Had a hard time deciding what to take out

-4 Bolts, -1 Forked bolt was easy

Do you pull out DRS as it doesn't do that much? Probably pull out 1 delver or young peezy for Clique?

With that sideboard, how do you lose to it?

Darkness
09-03-2015, 07:52 AM
Doing some practice games vs my buddy's Omnitell deck.. Using Alex Bastecki's list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/318067#paper

What is the sb plan vs omni typically?

+2 Pyro
+1 REB
+4 Cabal
+1 Clique
+2 Surgical Extraction

Had a hard time deciding what to take out

-4 Bolts, -1 Forked bolt was easy

Do you pull out DRS as it doesn't do that much? Probably pull out 1 delver or young peezy for Clique?

Personally I don't like the Surgical against Omnitell, It's cute to get rid of their Omniscience or SnT with it, but if your discarding their Key pieces and have counterspells you're probably already winning. I would remove the 2 Surgicals and play the 8 removing // - 4 Bolts, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Gurmag Angler -1 Daze. You can argue that Daze stays in on the play and out on the Draw but I think the REB effects are just stronger than the tempo war, as they should be playing around it if they are smart.

Sunday Funday
09-03-2015, 10:18 AM
Not sure if already posted elsewhere but did Bob Huang who won the Legacy Eternal Champs write a report? I'd be very interested in reading his thoughts on the deck. Thanks.

Jaytron
09-03-2015, 01:10 PM
With that sideboard, how do you lose to it?

Didn't lose to it. :) Doesn't mean I can't get second opinions on sb options!


Personally I don't like the Surgical against Omnitell, It's cute to get rid of their Omniscience or SnT with it, but if your discarding their Key pieces and have counterspells you're probably already winning. I would remove the 2 Surgicals and play the 8 removing // - 4 Bolts, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Gurmag Angler -1 Daze. You can argue that Daze stays in on the play and out on the Draw but I think the REB effects are just stronger than the tempo war, as they should be playing around it if they are smart.

Interesting point regarding surgical. Thanks!

Surgical probably gets boarded in against loam decks?


I'd probably pull a DRS or two and maybe 1 Wasteland, at least 1 Angler, but I wouldn't cut Delver or Pyromancer. They are the tools that allows you to win the quickest.

Thanks!

ironclad8690
09-03-2015, 01:16 PM
Personally I don't like the Surgical against Omnitell, It's cute to get rid of their Omniscience or SnT with it, but if your discarding their Key pieces and have counterspells you're probably already winning. I would remove the 2 Surgicals and play the 8 removing // - 4 Bolts, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Gurmag Angler -1 Daze. You can argue that Daze stays in on the play and out on the Draw but I think the REB effects are just stronger than the tempo war, as they should be playing around it if they are smart.

I can understand your point, but in my experience Surgical helps because it isn't usually the 1st Show and Tell that gets through, it's the 2nd or 3rd one after they have forced you to use your counterspells/discard. Between the time it takes to fight the 1st counter war and when they refill their hand enough to go off, that is the prime time to surgical the show and tell/omniscience (if you didn't have the opportunity to get Show and Tell, obviously Show and Tell is better to get rid of because they can still Emrakul you with Show and Tell).

This video is a good example of how omnitell can grind out grixis delver through multiple countermagic battles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1mndluEtM (Dylan Donegan - Delver vs Josh Perline - Omnitell, SCG DC)

Don't play surgical if they might have Dig Through Time if you can help it, don't want them blanking it.

Delvis
09-04-2015, 09:19 AM
Interesting point regarding surgical. Thanks!

Surgical probably gets boarded in against loam decks?

Hell yes. It might not be as game-breaking against Aggro Loam as it is against Lands, but you can just take Lands completely out of the game with well-placed and well-timed Surgicals.

It's also quite good against any of the Storm-based combo decks, as most of those rely upon flashing spells back with Past in Flames. Those decks are typically quite fragile to disruption of this sort.

It's also obviously useful against Reanimator, even though half the time you have to use it to get a single card. But I'd much rather be able to get rid of Elesh Norn than not.

Jaytron
09-04-2015, 01:30 PM
I can understand your point, but in my experience Surgical helps because it isn't usually the 1st Show and Tell that gets through, it's the 2nd or 3rd one after they have forced you to use your counterspells/discard. Between the time it takes to fight the 1st counter war and when they refill their hand enough to go off, that is the prime time to surgical the show and tell/omniscience (if you didn't have the opportunity to get Show and Tell, obviously Show and Tell is better to get rid of because they can still Emrakul you with Show and Tell).

This video is a good example of how omnitell can grind out grixis delver through multiple countermagic battles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1mndluEtM (Dylan Donegan - Delver vs Josh Perline - Omnitell, SCG DC)

Don't play surgical if they might have Dig Through Time if you can help it, don't want them blanking it.


Hell yes. It might not be as game-breaking against Aggro Loam as it is against Lands, but you can just take Lands completely out of the game with well-placed and well-timed Surgicals.

It's also quite good against any of the Storm-based combo decks, as most of those rely upon flashing spells back with Past in Flames. Those decks are typically quite fragile to disruption of this sort.

It's also obviously useful against Reanimator, even though half the time you have to use it to get a single card. But I'd much rather be able to get rid of Elesh Norn than not.

Thanks for the tips guys!

Man, there's a lot to learn w/ Legacy. It's a little daunting. Instead of having to prep for 2~3 different matchups, it's more like preparing for ~10+

Manipulato
09-04-2015, 04:44 PM
How do you guys board against Miracles with the standard Noah Cohen list? Do you bring in Therapys? If yes, for Daze? Needle, Null Rod, Pyroblasts are obvious...

Maybe a boarding plan for the classic Jace/Entreat list & one for the Mentor Miracles list would be helpful.

Thx

KobeBryan
09-04-2015, 04:51 PM
How do you guys board against Miracles with the standard Noah Cohen list? Do you bring in Therapys? If yes, for Daze? Needle, Null Rod, Pyroblasts are obvious...

Maybe a boarding plan for the classic Jace/Entreat list & one for the Mentor Miracles list would be helpful.

Thx

Discard isn't that great against miracles.

I probably would only bring in rod, needle, pyroblasts, plus miscellaneous in your board. Out 4 daze, 1 spell pierce, and 1 forked bolt.

I would definitely keep bolts in just in case there is a meddling mage, mentor, or whatever crap they bring in.

Darkness
09-04-2015, 10:26 PM
Sulfuric Vortex is pretty good against them as well as REB effects Needles. Bolt mediocre at best and daze is horrible on the draw. They will play around it. The games should go long. Don't over expose play one threat at a time and overload your hand with business.

goblinsplayer
09-04-2015, 10:52 PM
How do you guys board against Miracles with the standard Noah Cohen list? Do you bring in Therapys? If yes, for Daze? Needle, Null Rod, Pyroblasts are obvious...

Maybe a boarding plan for the classic Jace/Entreat list & one for the Mentor Miracles list would be helpful.

Thx

If you're taking about this list, http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90582 , here's what i would do against regular miracles:
-4 Daze
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Spell Pierce
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Therapy
+1 Needle
+1 Clique
I really don't like daze in this matchup because they just play around it and it becomes pretty useless after turn 2/3. I like to keep a few bolts in because miracles tend to bring in mentor post-board, and worst-case scenario, they can just kill a random clique or snapcaster. Spell pierce is fine but probably worse than the cards you're bringing in. As for mentor miracles, I would do more or less the same thing. Maybe you would bring in the singleton staticaster.

Kl'rt
09-05-2015, 01:57 AM
Yeah, the numbers for this deck are counting towards "Grixis Pyromancer" because of Tcdecks classifications, which have not differentiated between Grixis Control and Grixis Delver. Unfortunate, but what can you do :/


I am writing to tc decks about this now. They were doing the same thing with "Team America" a few years ago, lumping BUG Control decks together with the aggressive BUG Delver decks, but after letting them know, they fixed it.

ironclad8690
09-05-2015, 03:41 PM
I am writing to tc decks about this now. They were doing the same thing with "Team America" a few years ago, lumping BUG Control decks together with the aggressive BUG Delver decks, but after letting them know, they fixed it.

Thank you! Hopefully that will clear up some of the confusion surrounding these decks.

Nihil Credo
09-05-2015, 06:12 PM
This deck has been moved to the DTB because it turns out that that the vast majority of TCDecks' "Grixis Pyromancer" category are Tempo decks now.

Thanks to AfroSmile for pointing out my mistake.

Manipulato
09-05-2015, 08:46 PM
This deck has been moved to the DTB because it turns out that that the vast majority of TCDecks' "Grixis Pyromancer" category are Tempo decks now.

Thanks to AfroSmile for pointing out my mistake.

The burg Delver deck is by the way no Dtb, it was a failure because you guys thought that this was the description for the popular Grixis Delver deck with the little g splash.
burg Delver belongs to the Established area. Then everything is right as before :wink:

ironclad8690
09-05-2015, 11:21 PM
This deck has been moved to the DTB because it turns out that that the vast majority of TCDecks' "Grixis Pyromancer" category are Tempo decks now.

Thanks to AfroSmile for pointing out my mistake.

A big "thank you" Credo!

AfroSmile
09-06-2015, 05:27 PM
This deck has been moved to the DTB because it turns out that that the vast majority of TCDecks' "Grixis Pyromancer" category are Tempo decks now.

Thanks to AfroSmile for pointing out my mistake.

A big thank to you for the work! The work you're doing is huge! If we can help, we'll do. :wink:


The burg Delver deck is by the way no Dtb, it was a failure because you guys thought that this was the description for the popular Grixis Delver deck with the little g splash.
burg Delver belongs to the Established area. Then everything is right as before :wink:

I was thinking the same until I go to the TCG Deck and check decks that are describe in 4 color delver. Actually there is may be 2-3 mistakes but otherwise it is correct. So I think the deck belongs to the DTB area in the moment.
bUrg Delver is quite strong at the moment. I think we have to stop to discuss the deck position actually because everything is alright now. We can continue the deck discussion.

ironclad8690
09-07-2015, 01:47 AM
The lone Delver player in the top 16 takes down the whole tournament

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91020

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (28)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Lands (18)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Dismember
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Forked Bolt

Mostly stock but he played TNN/Forked Bolt in the sideboard instead of Ancient Grudge or Dread of Night.

iostream
09-07-2015, 12:50 PM
It's been suggested in four-color Delver (e.g. Charlie Holland's top 8 list from Legacy Champs this year), but I wonder if Jace, Vryn's Prodigy could be a reasonable option here. I'm thinking just taking the stock maindeck posted in the previous post and do +2 Jace, -1 Probe, -1 Pyromancer in the maindeck. Jace synergizes with Daze and gives us another way to fuel our four Delve cards (or pitch them if we draw too many). The quasi-Snapcaster effect is pretty good game one, but totally insane in SB games when we bring in high impact one-ofs.

ChemicalBurns
09-08-2015, 04:44 AM
iostream, I've been thinking a lot about Jace, and although I typically play RUG I've been testing him a reasonable amount in Grixis and have come to this list. I've been incredibly impressed with him so far; an unchecked Jace in most fair matchups has usually led to me running away with the game, and is another incredibly high-impact threat in addition to the rest of our threat base.

Creatures: (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Gurmag Angler

Non-Creature Spells: (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt

Lands: (18)
4 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard: (15)
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Electrickery
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan's Command

Sideboard is pretty messy and probably has a few too many cutesy cards (K.Command should probably just be a Grudge), but the main I feel really fits Jace nicely. Having the singleton main deck Cabal Therapy over the typical Spell Pierce seems like a necessary change to ensure that Jace has a lot of proactive sorceries that he can flashback. It feels really unfortunate to have to cut an Angler however, and I could see cutting a Pyromancer to add the second one back in.

Delvis
09-08-2015, 10:03 AM
If you're taking about this list, http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90582 , here's what i would do against regular miracles:
-4 Daze
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Spell Pierce
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Therapy
+1 Needle
+1 Clique
I really don't like daze in this matchup because they just play around it and it becomes pretty useless after turn 2/3. I like to keep a few bolts in because miracles tend to bring in mentor post-board, and worst-case scenario, they can just kill a random clique or snapcaster. Spell pierce is fine but probably worse than the cards you're bringing in. As for mentor miracles, I would do more or less the same thing. Maybe you would bring in the singleton staticaster.

I feel like you might want to cut a Force instead of the Pierce, there. You're cutting the Dazes and replacing them with black and red cards, which makes your Forces slightly worse. In my experience, cutting that many blue cards has a noticeable (but not crippling) effect on my ability to pitch to Force. Meanwhile Pierce is still reasonable in the matchup, especially if it's protecting early pressure.

I don't know. Maybe you just want the hard counter.

You definitely want Staticaster against Mentor Miracles, though. My plan currently is to board as if they're bringing in Mentors if I lost game 1, because if I'm not prepared for the Mentor switch then I'm just going to get run over.

Is anybody else playing the Ed Demicco-style Stifle list? I've rather enjoyed having Stifles to screw with what my opponent is doing. The downside is you lose Anglers and MD Forked Bolt/Pierce, although I've been tinkering around with cutting the third DTT and a Pyromancer for two Anglers because I see Abrupt Decay going up in popularity.

Jaytron
09-08-2015, 10:05 PM
Question for you guys:

In this article: http://articles.kirwansgamestore.com/2015/07/grixis-delver-in-legacy/

He says to counter the cantrips when you can. Does that still hold through? Should I not be holding out for the inevitable fight over SnT? Is it because a decent player will just play around Daze when it's time to resolve SnT anyways?

I understand I shouldn't lose this matchup, and post board it's fairly straightforward but I've been practicing some pre-board games with my buddy because I don't just want to lose g1 all the time.

Also, I've been wondering... would anyone be as so kind as to give me a quick breakdown on favored/unfavored matchups?

As I understand it, it's like this:

Favored against
Omnitell
Miracles
Storm

Unfavored against
Lands
DnT

I'm not quite sure where other decks like Merfolk/Burn/Infect/Various Stoneblade lists I know I've missed a lot of other established decks, so feel free to add any.

iostream
09-08-2015, 10:37 PM
He says to counter the cantrips when you can. Does that still hold through? Should I not be holding out for the inevitable fight over SnT? Is it because a decent player will just play around Daze when it's time to resolve SnT anyways?
He doesn't say to always counter the cantrips. You only counter them with your soft countermagic when you can, basically for the same reasons you do that versus Storm. First, because Omnitell can develop their mana to the point that the soft counters eventually become bad. Second, because your strategy is to stick an early threat and ride it to victory, so you need to slow them down as much as you can in order to buy your threat enough time to close out. Your soft countermagic plays this role well. But you still need to save your hard counters for Show and Tell.

Jaytron
09-09-2015, 12:32 PM
He doesn't say to always counter the cantrips. You only counter them with your soft countermagic when you can, basically for the same reasons you do that versus Storm. First, because Omnitell can develop their mana to the point that the soft counters eventually become bad. Second, because your strategy is to stick an early threat and ride it to victory, so you need to slow them down as much as you can in order to buy your threat enough time to close out. Your soft countermagic plays this role well. But you still need to save your hard counters for Show and Tell.

Right, makes sense. The article did say to use Daze's to fight over cantrips. Using a FoW seems really bad to counter a cantrip. Thanks for the clarification!

Jonathan Alexander
09-10-2015, 09:47 AM
Why do people play Izzet Staticaster and why does it fill that role better than Electrickery? Serious question, thanks for answering.

jrsthethird
09-10-2015, 11:21 AM
Why do people play Izzet Staticaster and why does it fill that role better than Electrickery? Serious question, thanks for answering.

:u:, and lasting effect.

Delvis
09-10-2015, 12:15 PM
Why do people play Izzet Staticaster and why does it fill that role better than Electrickery? Serious question, thanks for answering.

Like most sideboard options in Legacy, it's a matter of personal preference and metagame composition. Here's some of the relevant differences between the two:

Pros:
- Can't be Spell Pierced or Dispelled
- Is blue; can be pitched to Force if needed
- Isn't affected by Thorn effects (particularly relevant against DnT) or 3sphere
- Better against Chalice... although typically Chalice is not played in matchups where you want Staticaster effect
- Continually affects board state; lock outs possible, x/2s have difficulty blocking/attacking into Elemental tokens, Apostle's Blessing-style effects are less effective

Cons:
- Doesn't flip Delver or trigger Pyromancer
- Is blue; can be Red Blasted
- If they have several different x/1s out, it can take a while to clear their board
- Doesn't immediately contribute to Delve fuel
- Costs more upfront
- Can't hit pre-Thresh Mongooses/other shrouded x/1s
- Weak to Revoker/Needle/Stifle

Jonathan Alexander
09-10-2015, 12:39 PM
Thanks for your replies. To be honest, I was more interested in the first half of my question. To be more precise, in what matchups is that effect actually wanted? Why is it in the sideboard and where else is it boarded in if it's there anyway?

phazonmutant
09-10-2015, 02:33 PM
Thanks for your replies. To be honest, I was more interested in the first half of my question. To be more precise, in what matchups is that effect actually wanted? Why is it in the sideboard and where else is it boarded in if it's there anyway?

I've played Staticaster extensively in Miracles, and although I haven't played much with Grixis Delver, I think my experiences with Miracles can be extended here. It is great against Death and Taxes (a difficult matchup for Delver decks without hate), good in the mirror to catch up from behind, a hard-lock against Elves, Infect, and other random creature decks, and good against storm by virtue of being blue and a hedge against Swarm / Empty.

Other options are Electrickery (as you mentioned) and Sulfur Elemental. I think Electrickery is better only if you expect a ton of Delvers that you'd like to kill on turn 1, and Sulfur Elemental is if you think there will be more Miracles and D&T than any of the other decks I listed.

learntolove6
09-11-2015, 06:32 PM
Hello all,

I usually play Esper Stoneblade (ironclad reported playing me in a daily a couple of posts back) and this matchup has been giving me some trouble, lately. I'm just looking for some insight as to cards that are good in the match up so I can try to formulate a game plan.

Thanks guys/gals! Any insight is much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ironclad8690
09-11-2015, 07:53 PM
This advice may seem too generic, but the best ways to beat us are getting batterskull in play (we have very few answers once this hits the table), playing around Daze/fetching basic lands when you can, and post board -1/-1 effects are rough for us. Lingering souls is already great against delver, and supreme verdict is really powerful too. You can board out Jace TMS and Council's Judgment for cheaper answers. Rest in Peace is also worth its salt in this matchup. Be prepared to deal with Sulfuric Vortex post board.

Jo4source
09-11-2015, 08:01 PM
Hey guys I'm a little new to legacy and this forum. Hoping to get some help

I'm playing bob Huangs list minus a cabal and adding a dark blast for mirror in the board

I know merfolk is a hard match up even with 3 pyro blast post board how should I board and how can I beat a turn one challace. I have been thinking of adding abrupt decay in the board.

In addition I play in a small town we all know each other's decks field composed of 3-4 miracles 3-4 delver decks one omni show and merfolk that just kill all our blue decks, one mud pilot,then random jank decks. What should a board look like for this type of meta

ironclad8690
09-11-2015, 10:47 PM
Hey guys I'm a little new to legacy and this forum. Hoping to get some help

I'm playing bob Huangs list minus a cabal and adding a dark blast for mirror in the board

I know merfolk is a hard match up even with 3 pyro blast post board how should I board and how can I beat a turn one challace. I have been thinking of adding abrupt decay in the board.

In addition I play in a small town we all know each other's decks field composed of 3-4 miracles 3-4 delver decks one omni show and merfolk that just kill all our blue decks, one mud pilot,then random jank decks. What should a board look like for this type of meta

Merfolk is pretty tough. They shouldn't be able to chalice you turn 1 though unless their build is really unconventional. I would just bring in some number of pyroblasts and ancient grudge. Try to focus on killing their lords. If you want to go really deep here you could play rending volley in your board. I might even go up to 4 pyroblasts in your board, your meta is pretty blue.

learntolove6
09-11-2015, 10:54 PM
This advice may seem too generic, but the best ways to beat us are getting batterskull in play (we have very few answers once this hits the table), playing around Daze/fetching basic lands when you can, and post board -1/-1 effects are rough for us. Lingering souls is already great against delver, and supreme verdict is really powerful too. You can board out Jace TMS and Council's Judgment for cheaper answers. Rest in Peace is also worth its salt in this matchup. Be prepared to deal with Sulfuric Vortex post board.

It is a tad generic, but it's a stable strategy. Batterskull is pretty great vs. Delver strategies. One of the issues in this matchups is how many angles Grixis can attack from, but it is still a Delver deck, in the end.

Thanks man!

Jo4source
09-12-2015, 01:43 AM
hey how do you guys and or girls think about having 1-2engineered plague in the board. i was thinking for a solution for merfolk but it should not be half bad for miracles naming monk?

Secretly.A.Bee
09-12-2015, 02:15 AM
I think engineered explosives is better on both counts.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Darkness
09-12-2015, 11:20 PM
Played in local tournament, Logan Mize's 75 went 4-0, split top 8 beat...

Round 1 Esper Mentor 2:0//2-0
Game 1: Delver +DRS + wasteland is a win
Game 2: DRS + Gurmag + opponent bricking on lands after fetching a basic

Round 2 Infect 2:0//4-0
Game 1: 1 Bolt his Glistener Elf Waste his Inkmoth + Gurmag and DRS is a win
Game 2: Fetches a basic forest plays around wasteland again sees all blue cards bolt his Glistener Elf and kill him with Delver

Round 3 Mentor Miracles 2:1//6-1
Game 1: Quick Delver flip protect the queen till STP counter war loss followed by 2 DRS who get there
Game 2: Stops my threats casts 2 Mentors after we one for one each other he overwhelms me.
Game 3: Delver gets him low have 2 DRS in play. Get to turns he's at 6 on his last turn I have 2 DRS plus vortex he finds 2 STP get him down to 2, he concedes since he would be dead on upkeep

Round 4 Burn 2:0 8-1
Game 1: Delver + Daze + Force + Bolt (kills my delver play a DRS + Angler) = win
Game 2: DRS + Delver + opponent is flooded + he oversideboarded ( too many blasts + gravehate; thinks I'm on 4c Delver aka Goyf hate) = Win

Props
-DRS
-Bolt
-Force
-Sulfuric Vortex//My Miracle opponent being sensible and giving me the "turn 6 vortex" win.

Slops
-Playing no Pyromancers
-True-Name not doing anything in the fair matches
- Forgetting Delver trigger; though it didn't cost me a game

Top 4 split as we were tired I would have faced MUD, friend I bring with me, and Infect or Burn; the players I beat in the swiss. We were all tired and wanted to go home.

I really like this deck, it's my second tournament with it and I feel really comfortable piloting it. I felt I had game against every deck I faced and I wasn't worried about any match ups, except maybe lands. I may change the SB -1 Surgical +1 Grafdiggers Cage, but I am not sure more testing needed.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-13-2015, 06:07 PM
What is my best strategy against mud with this deck?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

ironclad8690
09-13-2015, 06:42 PM
What is my best strategy against mud with this deck?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

It is a pretty polarizing matchup: either you get completely locked out by chalice and/or and crushed by lifelink from wurmcoil and/or get blightsteel'ed/ugined, or you manage to counter/destroy their early metalworkers and wasteland them enough to prevent them from playing anything 5+ mana.

In my experience they can't really play around daze unless they get a lucky cavern of souls opening, and you can mostly daze their early relevant cards.

Postboard Ancient Grudge is pretty nuts, and dismember does a bit of work. Sulfuric Vortex is decent but I could see not boarding it in, and also Pithing Needle can be a life saver against Kudoltha Forgemaster.

Jo4source
09-14-2015, 10:47 PM
dose any one think there should be 3-4 digs in the deck?

ironclad8690
09-15-2015, 02:11 AM
You can do it, but I certainly don't think you can also play angler, and I really think angler is quite good in here.

Went 3-0 in my weekly tournament beating pox, infect, and uwr blade. Infect was the only close match, if he had 1 more pump spell or counterspell he would have won. Pox just isnt good vs Young Pyromancer, and the blade deck got mana screwed game 1 and sulfuric vortexed game 2.

Jaytron
09-16-2015, 02:37 PM
I just lost to an omnitell deck after resolving a surgical for SnT.


What the hell, that deck is broken. I'm switching if DTT isn't banned. No skill, free win deck.

Delvis
09-16-2015, 02:40 PM
I just lost to an omnitell deck after resolving a surgical for SnT.


What the hell, that deck is broken. I'm switching if DTT isn't banned. No skill, free win deck.

I believe that's what we call "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."

Seriously, gonna need more details on how they beat you. Useful information for sideboarding plans for them.

Jaytron
09-16-2015, 02:44 PM
I believe that's what we call "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."

Seriously, gonna need more details on how they beat you. Useful information for sideboarding plans for them.

Wish'd for Through the Breach. Bosei on board and I couldn't find a Wasteland. I didn't over extend into Pyroclasm, holding back a vclique and peezy (which was good, because he eventually pyroclasm'd). But uncounterable spells are uncounterable. He won the turn before he would have died. Epic finding of Emrakul, because he didn't have it the turn before when I Cliqued him.

Bosei is being run main, he brings in a 2nd one post board.

Let me know if you need anymore info. I think the big thing is that he was running through the breach in SB, which doesn't seem super common.

Darkness
09-16-2015, 11:01 PM
Wish'd for Through the Breach. Bosei on board and I couldn't find a Wasteland. I didn't over extend into Pyroclasm, holding back a vclique and peezy (which was good, because he eventually pyroclasm'd). But uncounterable spells are uncounterable. He won the turn before he would have died. Epic finding of Emrakul, because he didn't have it the turn before when I Cliqued him.

Bosei is being run main, he brings in a 2nd one post board.

Let me know if you need anymore info. I think the big thing is that he was running through the breach in SB, which doesn't seem super common.

That's just what combo decks do sometimes, rip the nuts. As a former ANT/TES/Sneak and Show player myself, I hedged on getting lucky better than playing well, though playing well+lucky is probably what your opponent had going on for him.

Lans89
09-17-2015, 03:21 AM
Let me know if you need anymore info. I think the big thing is that he was running through the breach in SB, which doesn't seem super common.

This is superrrr common

Jaytron
09-17-2015, 10:53 AM
This is superrrr common

New to my playtesting buddy's SB. I haven't seen or lost to it in the past.

cdnza
09-17-2015, 11:52 AM
Has anyone being trying Stifle? Perhaps in the Daze slot?

Poron
09-17-2015, 12:39 PM
Not in Grixis but I have been playing a deck with 4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle, 4 Deathrite, 4 Delver 4 Pyromancer and 4 Stone Rain and it worked quite fine.

Greedy mana base are so fun to disrupt and Shaman allows you to play Blood Moon also with 1 single Island on the board

Whitefaces
09-17-2015, 12:52 PM
Not in Grixis but I have been playing a deck with 4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle, 4 Deathrite, 4 Delver 4 Pyromancer and 4 Stone Rain and it worked quite fine.

Greedy mana base are so fun to disrupt and Shaman allows you to play Blood Moon also with 1 single Island on the board

The old DRS - Island combo, love it. And surely there are better cards to play than Stone Rain!? If you're playing B for DRS, why not Sinkhole?

Darkness
09-17-2015, 01:05 PM
The old DRS - Island combo, love it. And surely there are better cards to play than Stone Rain!? If you're playing B for DRS, why not Sinkhole?

Double black is quite taxing on the mana. I remember playing BUG Delver and thinking double black plus all the green cards forced the deck to play a later game than it wanted. Though Sinkhole is a blow out.

ironclad8690
09-17-2015, 01:38 PM
Has anyone being trying Stifle? Perhaps in the Daze slot?

Stifle and daze play very well with each other (mana denial and soft countermagic tend to). I would cut anglers, spell pierce, and forked bolt to play stifle.

ironclad8690
09-17-2015, 04:48 PM
Just got completely shut out for the first time ever in a daily event. 12 post 1-2, Miracles 1-2, Miracles 1-2.

I don't know exactly why I did so poorly, but oh well.

I am going to give this a try:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pyroblast

2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Dismember

The idea is that Dark Confidant will help in the Miracles matchup and provide more card advantage while overloading the opponent's removal. The issue is that Delver won't flip as often, but with the added mid-game power that shouldn't be an issue.

jrsthethird
09-18-2015, 02:46 AM
The old DRS - Island combo, love it. And surely there are better cards to play than Stone Rain!? If you're playing B for DRS, why not Sinkhole?

Because Sinkhole can't bait out those Hydroblasts when you need Pyromancer to stick.

Whitefaces
09-18-2015, 05:53 AM
Because Sinkhole can't bait out those Hydroblasts when you need Pyromancer to stick.

Knew I was missing something, thanks!

Poron
09-18-2015, 06:21 AM
with a sticking Pyromancer Smallpox is much better than Sinkhole.

If you go the deep land removal route we might drop the heavy red list for

YP
DShaman
Stifle
Smallpox
Sinkhole
may be Dark Confidant

SB Hymn and Therapy for combo/control

I'll give it a try.
Grixis can pack very powerful planeswalkers as well...

Whitefaces
09-18-2015, 06:32 AM
with a sticking Pyromancer Smallpox is much better than Sinkhole.

And when you don't have a Pyromancer Smallpox is miserable for you too.

Poron
09-18-2015, 06:39 AM
And when you don't have a Pyromancer Smallpox is miserable for you too.

that'a why 4 Sinkhole and 2 Smallpox would be a fine start.

4 Stifle 4 Shaman and 4 Wasteland as well

Whitefaces
09-18-2015, 06:52 AM
that'a why 4 Sinkhole and 2 Smallpox would be a fine start.

4 Stifle 4 Shaman and 4 Wasteland as well

Shaman and Smallpox go terribly together.

phazonmutant
09-18-2015, 04:09 PM
Are you guys just not aware of the Grixis Delver lists that have been doing well, or do you actually think your builds are better? If you're on this forum looking for advice on your build, the first thing I'd suggest is not to get too fancy.

Smallpox, Sinkhole, really? Come on, those aren't playable cards. One tournament should be enough to tell you that (if you couldn't tell by looking at the deck). Dark Confidant is so much worse than Gurmag Angler, and it should be obvious from any loss to a fair deck why that's true. Just in case, I'll explain. You need a fat, cheap creature that can't be easily blocked or Bolted, unlike every other creature in the deck. If you want card advantage, play Dig Through Time. If you want to win, play Dig Through Time.

Edit: I suppose I should preempt the "you don't know anything about the deck comments". I picked this deck up cold last Thursday. I've gone 11-1 in matches over the past 3 weekly tournaments with Bob Huang's list, each with 25-40 (mostly seasoned) players. His list is the gold standard until the meta shifts.

btm10
09-18-2015, 05:25 PM
Edit: I suppose I should preempt the "you don't know anything about the deck comments". I picked this deck up cold last Thursday. I've gone 11-1 in matches over the past 3 weekly tournaments with Bob Huang's list, each with 25-40 (mostly seasoned) players. His list is the gold standard until the meta shifts.

I agree that Bob or Noah's list is the logical starting point for someone coming to the deck for the first time, though I also think that there's plenty of room for tuning and variation.If you're seeing a lot of combo, moving a Therapy or two to the main makes a lot of sense. I run into Miracles a fair bit, so I've been very happy with keeping two Decays in the board since it lets me cover Mentor and Counterbalance with one slot. The optimal graveyard hate package is an open question. I'm not in love with additional 1-toughness creatures, but I suppose TNN is at least worth discussing, unlike Bob, who really has no business being in the deck (unlike in BUG, where he really does solve a significant problem).

But you're right that once Stone Rain, Sinkhole, and Smallpox are being seriously discussed, the thread has gone way off the rails.

Poron
09-18-2015, 06:01 PM
Are you guys just not aware of the Grixis Delver lists that have been doing well, or do you actually think your builds are better? If you're on this forum looking for advice on your build, the first thing I'd suggest is not to get too fancy.

Smallpox, Sinkhole, really? Come on, those aren't playable cards. One tournament should be enough to tell you that (if you couldn't tell by looking at the deck). Dark Confidant is so much worse than Gurmag Angler, and it should be obvious from any loss to a fair deck why that's true. Just in case, I'll explain. You need a fat, cheap creature that can't be easily blocked or Bolted, unlike every other creature in the deck. If you want card advantage, play Dig Through Time. If you want to win, play Dig Through Time.

Edit: I suppose I should preempt the "you don't know anything about the deck comments". I picked this deck up cold last Thursday. I've gone 11-1 in matches over the past 3 weekly tournaments with Bob Huang's list, each with 25-40 (mostly seasoned) players. His list is the gold standard until the meta shifts.

I just like to try to forecast next meta.
Imho 12posts mana will be veeery common.

There are way too many good colorless things around in battle for Eldrazi.
Also something versatile enough that removes Chalice should be considered, like Abrupt Decay.

ironclad8690
09-18-2015, 06:09 PM
Yeah, the Bob list was terrible (Bob as in Dark Confidant, not Bob Huang, whose list is amazing and definitely the stock list). Definitely tried to get too fancy. I would love if someone with more experience could take the deck onto MODO and record a couple of videos, the Miracles players on there are really dang good. I am 1-5 in matches against Miracles in the last week alone, so I obviously need some help in the matchup. Mzfroste in particular I think I have only ever beaten 1 game and it was because I got really lucky. Phazonmutant how do you board against them?

ironclad8690
09-19-2015, 11:51 AM
Well, I just went 3-0 in a DE with the list below:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dig Through Time
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfuric Vortex

I faced Miracles (2-1), BUG Delver (2-0), and Miracles again (2-0).

I believe the big difference is how I approached the Miracles matchup post-board, as well as getting a better feeling of when to commit more creatures to the board vs holding them to avoid getting 2 for 1'ed by Terminus.

OUT: 3 Deathrite Shaman, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Daze, and 1 Forked Bolt
IN: 3 Pyroblast, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Dread of Night, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Vendilion Clique

I used to board slightly differently (not cutting shamans, cutting all dazes, cutting a Gurmag, etc), but this configuration felt the most coherent.

BUG Delver had a slow start game 1 and couldn't answer a Gurmag Angler, game 2 got a TNN but I had him on the back foot the entire game and he succumbed to Bolts and Shaman activations.

phazonmutant
09-21-2015, 05:07 PM
I agree that Bob or Noah's list is the logical starting point for someone coming to the deck for the first time, though I also think that there's plenty of room for tuning and variation.If you're seeing a lot of combo, moving a Therapy or two to the main makes a lot of sense. I run into Miracles a fair bit, so I've been very happy with keeping two Decays in the board since it lets me cover Mentor and Counterbalance with one slot. The optimal graveyard hate package is an open question. I'm not in love with additional 1-toughness creatures, but I suppose TNN is at least worth discussing, unlike Bob, who really has no business being in the deck (unlike in BUG, where he really does solve a significant problem).

But you're right that once Stone Rain, Sinkhole, and Smallpox are being seriously discussed, the thread has gone way off the rails.

Oh for sure, there definitely are room for some tweaks based on the meta. I'm a little dubious of green spells in the sideboard after playing several variations of 4c Delver with green spells and now this URb list - I found having to fetch green early can really mess with the curve, or require keeping more lands than ideal off Ponder and Brainstorm. I think if you really want to beat Miracles that Null Rod or Sulfuric Vortex are better choices, but Decay definitely has its merits.

Right for once? :tongue:


I just like to try to forecast next meta.
Imho 12posts mana will be veeery common.

There are way too many good colorless things around in battle for Eldrazi.
Also something versatile enough that removes Chalice should be considered, like Abrupt Decay.

There are so many reasons that's not going to happen. 12Post is a ramp deck, and that archetype historically attracts fewer players than control, tempo, or spell-based combo. It's also expensive with niche cards like Candelabra. What's more, the Eldrazi in this set suck. The biggest reason though is that it's just not very good. You should already be close-to-favored against them thanks to a full complement of Wastelands, Force, and discard. A more likely place for the metagame to go is for more people to pick up Merfolk and UR/x Delver decks. Grixis been doing well despite not fully saturating the Delver population, and Delver and Merfolk traditionally have attracted plenty of players when they're good.


Yeah, the Bob list was terrible (Bob as in Dark Confidant, not Bob Huang, whose list is amazing and definitely the stock list). Definitely tried to get too fancy. I would love if someone with more experience could take the deck onto MODO and record a couple of videos, the Miracles players on there are really dang good. I am 1-5 in matches against Miracles in the last week alone, so I obviously need some help in the matchup. Mzfroste in particular I think I have only ever beaten 1 game and it was because I got really lucky. Phazonmutant how do you board against them?

<list>
I faced Miracles (2-1), BUG Delver (2-0), and Miracles again (2-0).

I believe the big difference is how I approached the Miracles matchup post-board, as well as getting a better feeling of when to commit more creatures to the board vs holding them to avoid getting 2 for 1'ed by Terminus.

OUT: 3 Deathrite Shaman, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Daze, and 1 Forked Bolt
IN: 3 Pyroblast, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Dread of Night, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Vendilion Clique

I used to board slightly differently (not cutting shamans, cutting all dazes, cutting a Gurmag, etc), but this configuration felt the most coherent.

BUG Delver had a slow start game 1 and couldn't answer a Gurmag Angler, game 2 got a TNN but I had him on the back foot the entire game and he succumbed to Bolts and Shaman activations.

Looks like you figured it out. I like keeping in Gurmag unless you know they'll board in Rest in Peace, and not bringing in Therapy or Dread of Night (unless they're on the 4 Mentor version). I would never cut Deathrite Shaman - it may be a crappy threat, but it turbocharges your most powerful draws, and can put some pressure on them. What you highlighted is crucial - you have to have a good understanding of when to commit to the board and when to hold back, which is dependent on your hand and your read on their hand. Play the matchup a ton and you should get better at it.

With your list I like -3 Daze, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Wasteland, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Sulfuric Vortex on the draw, and from that +1 Daze, -1 Lightning Bolt on the play. That does depend on the player - if they respect Daze game 2, board them all out game 3. Wasteland is very rarely effective against them, and some Miracles players say Delver players should board them all out. I don't agree with that, but cutting 1-2 is good. They're a creature control deck, so you can't really afford to cut any threats.

ironclad8690
09-22-2015, 02:36 AM
Interesting set of results today:

Grixis Control: 0-2

Esper Mentor: 2-0

Miracles: 2-1

Infect: 2-1

RUG Delver: 1-2

Lands: 2-0

Shardless: 2-1

First 3 were in a daily event, last 4 were at my local store. I got pretty lucky in the lands matchup.

Jaytron
09-22-2015, 12:58 PM
Interesting set of results today:

Grixis Control: 0-2

Esper Mentor: 2-0

Miracles: 2-1

Infect: 2-1

RUG Delver: 1-2

Lands: 2-0

Shardless: 2-1

First 3 were in a daily event, last 4 were at my local store. I got pretty lucky in the lands matchup.
Wow, 2-0 vs Lands. That's amazing, hahaha. Great results!

Jo4source
09-22-2015, 08:35 PM
hey every one i like to hear opinions about this deck losing tier1 if dig gets band? i have the bob list but dont own the cabals and since b&r is close i dont know if i want to buy cabals or shardless agents. i played bug for a while until dig killed hymn. just like to hear opinions

jrsthethird
09-22-2015, 11:13 PM
hey every one i like to hear opinions about this deck losing tier1 if dig gets band? i have the bob list but dont own the cabals and since b&r is close i dont know if i want to buy cabals or shardless agents. i played bug for a while until dig killed hymn. just like to hear opinions

As a Tempo deck we're not too reliant on Dig. It gives us some late-game reach but we really don't want to get to the late game. The deck won't function much differently. It's the resulting metagame that determines whether this is still a Tier 1 deck.

ironclad8690
09-23-2015, 04:29 PM
I for one think dig through time is one of the biggest things this deck has going for it, and without that card the deck would return to tier 2 status. It does a lot of important work. I do not think it will be banned though.

ironclad8690
09-23-2015, 06:24 PM
I thought I would share something interesting that happened to me in a Daily Event today.

I am playing the mirror match, and I easily win game 1. I do not usually board in Cabal Therapy in this matchup. My opponent does bring em in, and he completely shreds me to bits in games 2 and 3. Now, he did draw pretty well, but do you guys generally bring in Cabal Therapy in the mirror match?

I messaged him about it after the match and he said he was new to the deck and it seemed good, so I dunno.

ultraviolent2
09-24-2015, 04:07 AM
Actually we want to bring in some copies of Cabal Therapy against Combo & Control right?
Let's say we are playing against Storm, SnT, Elves as Combo and Miracles, Stoneblade as Control - what do you take out? (with Bob Huangs basic list)


Or do we also bring them in against some Aggro Decks?

btm10
09-24-2015, 10:30 AM
I board my Therapies in all the time (at least going up to 2 on the play postboard, and almost always up to 4 on the draw) and I'm maindecking one. They're great in the mirror. Really, it's hard to find a matchup other than Lands where they're bad.

jrsthethird
09-24-2015, 12:58 PM
They're so good in conjunction with Probe and Pyromancer that it's hard to find a matchup they're bad in. I board them in almost all the time once I know what my opponent is on. If you're in a live setting and have time to scout, you could make a better case for playing them main, but online it's definitely harder (if not impossible) to put your opponent on a specific deck in the first turn.

I main them in Grixis Control, where we have more time to wait for the right moment, but in Tempo I think we want every single card we draw early to matter. Any mana we don't spend is a waste and sitting on a Therapy with no reasonable expectation of what to call blind is a loss of tempo.

I really don't know what the best cards to take out are. I usually take out some number of FOWs unless I'm against hard combo, and I play a Stifle build, so they come out sometimes too. Then Bolts, maybe a Probe or DRS, depending on the matchup. I need to remember Wasteland can be boarded out too.

ironclad8690
09-24-2015, 01:40 PM
Cool, thanks for the tips. I find that too often I treat Cabal Therapy like Thoughtseize, but it is a different beast altogether.

Jaytron
09-24-2015, 01:45 PM
Cool, thanks for the tips. I find that too often I treat Cabal Therapy like Thoughtseize, but it is a different beast altogether.

It's a very difficult card to play with. It almost needs it's own primer/thread to talk about it. The card only becomes more powerful with meta knowledge.

What's the best to name blind in the mirror? I guess you name Pyromancer on the draw, and delver on the play?

cherson
09-25-2015, 06:26 AM
hello guys. had some strange games against pox yesterday. seems I don't have enough counter to stop the hate :( ..
what do u think abt the match up in general, any suggestions/tips how to handle?

ironclad8690
09-25-2015, 05:57 PM
You should have a decent game against pox because they can't really afford to play around your Dazes. Save FOW for their haymaker spells like Smallpox. Young Pyromancer is MVP because most of the Pox removal only kills 1 creature at a time and usually you are the one who gets to pick which creature is sacrificed. Postboard you will likely want to board out bolts and bring in some cabal therapy as well as surgical extraction because they usually have some sort of recursion engine. Pithing needle shuts off Liliana as well as Cursed Scroll.

cherson
09-26-2015, 05:05 AM
You should have a decent game against pox because they can't really afford to play around your Dazes. Save FOW for their haymaker spells like Smallpox. Young Pyromancer is MVP because most of the Pox removal only kills 1 creature at a time and usually you are the one who gets to pick which creature is sacrificed. Postboard you will likely want to board out bolts and bring in some cabal therapy as well as surgical extraction because they usually have some sort of recursion engine. Pithing needle shuts off Liliana as well as Cursed Scroll.

I boarded + 2x smash to smitherness and + 2x needle, - 4 bolts.
I play 2x cabal therapy main.

maybe I didn't play smart but I have the feeling that I have to counter hymn, toxic deluge and small pox.
basically 10-12 cards against 10 counters plus 2x cabal.

I will definetely try surgical seems a pretty decent card against them. thanks.

cherson
09-26-2015, 05:14 AM
did anyone of you try to replace black by white and add monastery mentor?

3x daze
4x force
2x spell pierce
1x counterspell
4x brainstorm
4x bolt
3x swords to plow

4x ponder
2x dtt
4x gitaxian probe

4x pyromancer
3x monastery mentor
4x delver

18x lands

jrsthethird
09-26-2015, 06:34 AM
did anyone of you try to replace black by white and add monastery mentor?

3x daze
4x force
2x spell pierce
1x counterspell
4x brainstorm
4x bolt
3x swords to plow

4x ponder
2x dtt
4x gitaxian probe

4x pyromancer
3x monastery mentor
4x delver

18x lands

This would be a different deck. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25531-Deck-UWR-Delver

cherson
09-26-2015, 07:11 AM
This would be a different deck. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25531-Deck-UWR-Delver

why? uwr delver is a different deck in my opinion. they play stoneforge mystic / batterskull etc and don't play monastery mentor.

TheFlyinGutchman
09-26-2015, 08:46 AM
why? uwr delver is a different deck in my opinion. they play stoneforge mystic / batterskull etc and don't play monastery mentor.

It is uwr and it plays a delver tempo game. I can't see how it is anything else other than uwr delver. Swapping the white threat doesn't make it a new deck. Regardless, a grixis thread is not the right place for that list.

cherson
09-26-2015, 10:33 AM
well, apologize if it does not fit and the idea is completely unfounded to be discussed.
I checked the forum and just found a modern thread. that is why I posted same here.

ironclad8690
09-28-2015, 11:02 AM
Well, now that Dig Through Time is banned, I don't know if this deck is good enough anymore. Anyone have any ideas for a new list?

EDIT: I did a little research and it looks like pre-khans decklists looked like this:

Grixis Delver - Will Cruise SCG Invi (featured in this video, and crushing Reid Duke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDnnFN_4g9w))


1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Cabal Therapy


I bet we can work Angler in here because he is still quite strong and go down to 18 lands. I think it might need a little more removal though. Some lists were playing Fire Covenant & Fire/Ice before, but I am not sure if those are better than Murderous Cut.

KobeBryan
09-28-2015, 01:43 PM
See ya guys later.

janluis1
09-28-2015, 01:45 PM
is this deck dead? I was just starting pimpin it out :(

Bragi
09-28-2015, 01:47 PM
is this deck dead? I was just starting pimpin it out :(

I wouldn't trust Kobe on anything. But it doesn't look good, I'm afraid.

KobeBryan
09-28-2015, 01:59 PM
I wouldn't trust Kobe on anything. But it doesn't look good, I'm afraid.

So you do trust what i'm saying.

cherson
09-28-2015, 02:57 PM
Well, now that Dig Through Time is banned, I don't know if this deck is good enough anymore. Anyone have any ideas for a new list?

EDIT: I did a little research and it looks like pre-khans decklists looked like this:

Grixis Delver - Will Cruise SCG Invi (featured in this video, and crushing Reid Duke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDnnFN_4g9w))


1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Cabal Therapy


I bet we can work Angler in here because he is still quite strong and go down to 18 lands. I think it might need a little more removal though. Some lists were playing Fire Covenant & Fire/Ice before, but I am not sure if those are better than Murderous Cut.


awesome second game. the therapies..
concerning removal, why not playing terminate?

iamajellydonut
09-28-2015, 03:53 PM
So you do trust what i'm saying.

Grixis Delver has lived and will live the same life as UR Delver. Viable before. Viable after. But only a true powerhouse during.

jrsthethird
09-28-2015, 04:12 PM
Deck did fine frequently running only 2 Digs. Draw them early and they're Force fuel anyway. I think it makes space for a couple JVPs or Snaps.

Jaytron
09-28-2015, 05:04 PM
I'm sure we can accept that Grixis Delver will not be a top contender anymore. What delver deck takes the crown now? BUG or RUG?

ironclad8690
09-28-2015, 05:10 PM
I'm sure we can accept that Grixis Delver will not be a top contender anymore. What delver deck takes the crown now? BUG or RUG?

I am 100% sure BUG will become the top dog again. We will see how the format reacts. I am almost tempted to jump back on the Jund train myself.

lampsa
09-29-2015, 07:28 AM
I think I will be testing Painful Truths as a replacement for Dig Through Time/Treasure Cruise. The :r::u::b: casting cost is pretty rough for sorcery speed card draw though.

jim111589
09-29-2015, 09:49 AM
The. Why not just use last whisper? Cost less for 1 less card. Or even sign in blood as a possible shock when thier <3

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Darkness
09-29-2015, 10:22 AM
I don't think that is the direction you want to go towards as a tempo deck. I myself am leaning towards something like


3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread of Night
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vendilion Clique

This is a take on Will Cruise's 4c Delver list that he took to the top 8 of an Invitational in June of of 2014. It stream lines the mana denial plan game one with the full stifle package and plays out very similar to RUG Delver. Post board you have decays for Miracles//Tarmogoyf decks. Therapies for combo decks. Needle good for Miracles//Elves//Sneak Attack decks. Grudge for artifacts and equipment. Forked bolt for Elves//DnT. Pyroblast and REB for Miracles//Combo. Vortex for Miracles//Lands. Gravedigger's for Elves and GY decks. Dread for DnT. Clique for combo and grind matches. I'm excited about the stifle package game 1 and am looking forward to test this list out.

Delvis
10-02-2015, 03:13 PM
Thinking about taking this list to a midsize local tomorrow:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Dark Confidant
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland


Sideboard (in progress, need input because I'm terrible at building these):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dread of Night
1 Dispel
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminate


Really wanted to go full Prowess route and play Abbot of Keral Keep as well, but I'm not sold on it yet. I want to push tempo and aggression this week while peoples' control/midrange/combo decks struggle to adapt to life without Dig.

There's a long chain of logic behind Swiftspear over Delver. Essentially, Bob replacing Dig makes me want to not play Delve spells. But I still need a Decay-immune threat, so I go back to the old faithful TNN. But that makes my creature base (which now includes Bobs) full of X/1s. Delver, as a 1/1 that dies to basically every removal spell played in the format right now, contributes to this overall weakness of the creature base. Swiftspear dodges all sorts of removal that normally targets a Delver: Forked Bolt, Disfigure, even Pyroblast, and can dodge Lightning Bolt with a little bit of effort. Swiftspear is also better against Blood Moon and is a better overall topdeck.

I really like Prowess with Therapy+Pyromancer, too, which is why I didn't cut Pyro for Abbot.

If I did play Abbot, I would likely cut the Stifles and 1 Pyro and play 3 Abbots and 2 Therapies main. I would also need to probably cut Dazes for discard because counters are terrible with Abbot. I'd love to hear input on this as well.

It's difficult to make these adjustments, but I don't have the collection flexibility right now to play a different deck. Any input would be appreciated, as I don't really have much time to test this out.

Star|Scream
10-02-2015, 03:23 PM
Swiftspear dodges all sorts of removal that normally targets a Delver: Forked Bolt, Disfigure, even Pyroblast, and can dodge Lightning Bolt with a little bit of effort. Swiftspear is also better against Blood Moon and is a better overall topdeck.



Nice list, but how, exactly does swiftspear dodge forked bolt and disfigure?

Alix444
10-02-2015, 03:26 PM
Nice list, but how, exactly does swiftspear dodge forked bolt and disfigure?

I'm going with prowess.

Delvis
10-02-2015, 03:53 PM
Nice list, but how, exactly does swiftspear dodge forked bolt and disfigure?

Alix has it right, it's the Prowess. Being able to counter Disfigure or Forked Bolt just by Brainstorming or Bolting them is gross, and even the threat of doing so by leaving up a blue or red mana is often enough to get them to hold off.

Daze, which normally matches up poorly against these types of cheap removal, would also protect Swiftspear in this scenario.

jrsthethird
10-02-2015, 07:54 PM
Really wanted to go full Prowess route and play Abbot of Keral Keep as well, but I'm not sold on it yet. I want to push tempo and aggression this week while peoples' control/midrange/combo decks struggle to adapt to life without Dig.

I've been thinking about a similar list post-DTT, using Abbot with Bob. Let me know how this goes.

Delvis
10-03-2015, 09:45 PM
I've been thinking about a similar list post-DTT, using Abbot with Bob. Let me know how this goes.

I didn't have enough Bobs to play that list, but Abbot worked pretty well. I thought it'd be a larger tournament but we only got 15, so it was a cut to Top 4. I punted my Top 4 match to Maverick because it's been forever and a day since I've seen anyone play that deck, but, hey, it's a brand new meta now.

I'll write up a quick report and link it back here.

Edit: Here's the report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29977-Top-4-at-Brainstorm-Comics-in-Frederick-MD-with-new-look-Grixis-Delver

Jaytron
10-05-2015, 01:38 PM
What do you think about this list, first post DTT and Grixis Delver puts 2 decks int he top 32. Very different, but here's the one that got 4th.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92456

Takes some basics, to play around WL a little bit, and Blood Moon. TNN takes the place of Dig.

No trop though, so that means no Ancient Grudge in the SB, and 2x Smash to Smithereens instead.

Looks pretty cool.

ironclad8690
10-05-2015, 03:11 PM
What do you think about this list, first post DTT and Grixis Delver puts 2 decks int he top 32. Very different, but here's the one that got 4th.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92456

Takes some basics, to play around WL a little bit, and Blood Moon. TNN takes the place of Dig.

No trop though, so that means no Ancient Grudge in the SB, and 2x Smash to Smithereens instead.

Looks pretty cool.

Reminds me of modern UR, but on steroids.

cherson
10-05-2015, 03:11 PM
I like the idea adding basics but I don't like the idea of playin without WL.
in this particular case u cld add 3 x WL and cut two islands / bloodstained.

4 snapcaster are interesting, never played one before. for the time being I added 2 tnn i/o dtt.

Draggo
10-05-2015, 04:31 PM
I've played this list with succes for a while and changed the following:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis >> now 1 Vendilion Clique

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig Through Time >> now 1 Gurmag Angler 1 Gitaxian Probe

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

/Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dead // Gone
1 Electrickery >> now Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Dispel >> now Mana Maze
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Terminate

Basicly, with the ban of DTT I'm switching up -2 Dig Through Time , -1 True-Name Nemesis , +1 Gurmag Angler , +1 Gitaxian Probe , +1 Vendilion Clique .
For the sideboard switching Electrickery for Pithing Needle . (already swapped the single Dispel for Mana Maze a little while back ).
Expecting more Sneak&Show and ANT again and less Pyromancers in the local meta.
If it turns out to be more BUG or RUG or other tempo decks, I'll proberly be adding the second TNN somewhere back in the list again.

The list plays alot like RUG, but with a bit more controlling options by having Deathrite Shamans and black in the sideboard.

Kamus
10-11-2015, 02:16 AM
I'm gonna try Dylan Donnegan's stock list with +1 murderous cut +1 spell pierce to replace the missed DTTs

Darkness
10-11-2015, 06:29 AM
I'm gonna try Dylan Donnegan's stock list with +1 murderous cut +1 spell pierce to replace the missed DTTs

This is the exact solution I had to the banning of DTT for the MD. I did change the sideboard to include +2 Abrupt Decay +1 Sylvan Library, to combat the Grindy MU.

cherson
10-11-2015, 11:00 AM
did u ever try Ancestral Vision ?
I am not sure if it fits in a tempo deck..

Jaytron
10-12-2015, 02:22 AM
did u ever try Ancestral Vision ?
I am not sure if it fits in a tempo deck..

It doesn't, IMO.

Delvis
10-12-2015, 05:11 PM
Went 3-3 with the Prowess build at Squabbles in Glen Burnie, MD yesterday. I replaced my Stifles with Therapies and an additional Abbot. I might swap the third Abbot for a third Pyromancer, but the list has been a solid performer for me. If not for losing my motivation at the end of round 5 and showing up late to round 6 (in which I faced Imperial Painter and should have trashed him), I'd have had a puncher's chance at Top 8 of a 66-player event.

I may not be on the most efficient list, or the most popular, but I have a blast while playing and it seems to work pretty smoothly.

Edit: And Ancestral Vision is hot garbage in any list not planning on Cascading into it. It's just bad if you don't get it on Turn 1, and we'd rather be playing a Delver or DRS or Swiftspear on turn 1. Or even a Ponder. Or Therapy. You get the idea.

cherson
10-13-2015, 02:22 PM
Went 3-3 with the Prowess build at Squabbles in Glen Burnie, MD yesterday. I replaced my Stifles with Therapies and an additional Abbot. I might swap the third Abbot for a third Pyromancer, but the list has been a solid performer for me. If not for losing my motivation at the end of round 5 and showing up late to round 6 (in which I faced Imperial Painter and should have trashed him), I'd have had a puncher's chance at Top 8 of a 66-player event.

I may not be on the most efficient list, or the most popular, but I have a blast while playing and it seems to work pretty smoothly.

Edit: And Ancestral Vision is hot garbage in any list not planning on Cascading into it. It's just bad if you don't get it on Turn 1, and we'd rather be playing a Delver or DRS or Swiftspear on turn 1. Or even a Ponder. Or Therapy. You get the idea.


agree on the ancestral vision. it's only good on turn 1. afterwards every ponder, etc is better.

btw, did u play against enchantress?

Delvis
10-13-2015, 11:27 PM
agree on the ancestral vision. it's only good on turn 1. afterwards every ponder, etc is better.

btw, did u play against enchantress?

No. I did play against it at the Duel for Duals during Eternal Weekend. That was not a fun matchup, but it's such a non-factor in the metagame I haven't been worrying about it. However, I'd have to imagine that since I now have 2 Explosives in my sideboard, the matchup gets marginally better, but I'm not sure how much we could improve it.

If Enchantress is a serious player in your metagame, I'd advise playing a different deck. My strategy for avoiding it has been to win matches. I usually see the Enchantress guys haunting the X-2 bracket.

cherson
10-14-2015, 06:35 AM
No. I did play against it at the Duel for Duals during Eternal Weekend. That was not a fun matchup, but it's such a non-factor in the metagame I haven't been worrying about it. However, I'd have to imagine that since I now have 2 Explosives in my sideboard, the matchup gets marginally better, but I'm not sure how much we could improve it.

If Enchantress is a serious player in your metagame, I'd advise playing a different deck. My strategy for avoiding it has been to win matches. I usually see the Enchantress guys haunting the X-2 bracket.

no it is not, I am the only one playing it :) but I saw another report frm that tournament and enchantress crushed grixis delver and I thought u were the lucky one.
explosives are solid cards against enchantress and it will definitely help u out. as long as the board is not full of suppression fields, gaddog and nevermore, but unlikely.

Delvis
10-22-2015, 02:39 PM
Nobody's posting anything and I feel like the only person who's still working on this deck, so I'm just going to go on a bit of a ramble about my thought process. So this is where I currently am with this deck:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Perish
1 Sudden Demise
1 Volcanic Spray
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland is starting to feel like too much without Stifles; I had multiple chances to Waste opponents out of mana and they withstood the attempt, then followed with their own Wastelands to kill all my sources of mana. Or that time I kept a 2-Waste hand against Jeskai Delver and my opponent fetched all basics and then ripped Wastes to kill my mana.

So, I wanted more colored sources, and I want more resiliency against Wastelands (I already don't care a whole lot about Blood Moon). I cut the third Volc and a Waste for the other two on-color basics. This opens up the possibility of play Moons of my own due to the heavy red base of the deck, but I elected not to with this board.

The rest of the main feels very tight. I would like to get the third Pyro and/or the fourth Therapy, but I just can't find the room. If you put a gun to my head to make the cuts, I'd cut an Abbot and a Ponder, but that doesn't feel quite right. It's possible I should be sideboarding extra YPs for the grindy matchups to maximize my Therapies. I dunno.

Volcanic Spray in the side is a test card. The design of it aligns very well with a heavy Prowess creature base. It's competing with the second Explosives, so if it doesn't live up to that performance level it might get cut. That loss to Maverick in Top 4 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I imagine playing + flashing it and then attacking with two Prowess triggers after clearing their board will go a long way. I also really like the idea of being able to wipe Elves' board and have another sweep just sitting in the grave ready to go.

Pillar got a spot because I lost to TES and realized that without maindeck Stifles/DRS the matchup is actually not terrific. Bryant Cook's in my meta (although he wasn't the TES player) and I know of several ANT players running around as well, so being prepared for Storm is important as I'm virtually assured of having to beat it at least once in order to win a tournament. It can do a lot of damage to me, but they cannot go off without dealing with it, and it takes time to dig that answer out of their deck - time they won't have thanks to my creature pressure.

I'm playing Crypt over Spellbomb for a few reasons. One, it's a free Prowess trigger. Two, being free, I can play threats with my mana and keep up disruption for Storm without committing or holding up any mana (which is also true for Surgical and my counterspells). Three, being free, it's a lot better to flip when I play an Abbot with only two mana available. The drawback is you lose the ability to cantrip off of it, but I think the benefits outweigh that.

I'm playing Spell Snare over the second Flusterstorm because I realized it interacts with the key spell of the Storm decks, which is either Tutor or Wish, depending on how they're going off. It can also nab Cabal Ritual. Diversifying my hate package for them also protects me from Cabal Therapy. But why Snare over Mindbreak Trap? Well, Snare is usable in many other matchups where there is an important 2cc spell to counter: Miracles (Counterbalance, maybe Snapcaster), Shardless (half the stuff they Cascade into, including - notably - Tarmogoyf and Strix), Delver matchups (YP/Tarmogoyf/a whole bunch of stuff from BUG), Stoneblade matchups (SFM, Jitte, other value), and even Lands (Chalice on 1, or a timely Loam/Punishing Fire counter). I also chose Snare over Pierce because it hits Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and Baleful Strix (which is an enormous pest).

This list has a surprisingly good matchup against Lands and Shardless, as I've played four tournament matches against these decks now and have yet to lose a match (I even beat Shardless on a mull to 4 in game 1, and mulled to 6 three or four times against the Lands players). Putting a lot of early pressure on Lands can be more than they can deal with. I also beat Miracles once and I felt pretty solid about the matchup, especially considering he resolved 3 Terminus (each getting multiple creatures) in one game and I won anyway. I think my prediction about the metagame was correct, and that the slower, grindy decks cannot keep pace with fast tempo decks without DTT. They may adjust, but right now this build is hitting a sweet spot in the metagame.

cherson
10-23-2015, 11:22 AM
4 Wasteland is starting to feel like too much without Stifles; I had multiple chances to Waste opponents out of mana and they withstood the attempt, then followed with their own Wastelands to kill all my sources of mana. Or that time I kept a 2-Waste hand against Jeskai Delver and my opponent fetched all basics and then ripped Wastes to kill my mana.

So, I wanted more colored sources, and I want more resiliency against Wastelands (I already don't care a whole lot about Blood Moon). I cut the third Volc and a Waste for the other two on-color basics. This opens up the possibility of play Moons of my own due to the heavy red base of the deck, but I elected not to with this board.

The rest of the main feels very tight. I would like to get the third Pyro and/or the fourth Therapy, but I just can't find the room. If you put a gun to my head to make the cuts, I'd cut an Abbot and a Ponder, but that doesn't feel quite right. It's possible I should be sideboarding extra YPs for the grindy matchups to maximize my Therapies. I dunno.

Volcanic Spray in the side is a test card. The design of it aligns very well with a heavy Prowess creature base. It's competing with the second Explosives, so if it doesn't live up to that performance level it might get cut. That loss to Maverick in Top 4 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I imagine playing + flashing it and then attacking with two Prowess triggers after clearing their board will go a long way. I also really like the idea of being able to wipe Elves' board and have another sweep just sitting in the grave ready to go.

Pillar got a spot because I lost to TES and realized that without maindeck Stifles/DRS the matchup is actually not terrific. Bryant Cook's in my meta (although he wasn't the TES player) and I know of several ANT players running around as well, so being prepared for Storm is important as I'm virtually assured of having to beat it at least once in order to win a tournament. It can do a lot of damage to me, but they cannot go off without dealing with it, and it takes time to dig that answer out of their deck - time they won't have thanks to my creature pressure.

I'm playing Crypt over Spellbomb for a few reasons. One, it's a free Prowess trigger. Two, being free, I can play threats with my mana and keep up disruption for Storm without committing or holding up any mana (which is also true for Surgical and my counterspells). Three, being free, it's a lot better to flip when I play an Abbot with only two mana available. The drawback is you lose the ability to cantrip off of it, but I think the benefits outweigh that.

I'm playing Spell Snare over the second Flusterstorm because I realized it interacts with the key spell of the Storm decks, which is either Tutor or Wish, depending on how they're going off. It can also nab Cabal Ritual. Diversifying my hate package for them also protects me from Cabal Therapy. But why Snare over Mindbreak Trap? Well, Snare is usable in many other matchups where there is an important 2cc spell to counter: Miracles (Counterbalance, maybe Snapcaster), Shardless (half the stuff they Cascade into, including - notably - Tarmogoyf and Strix), Delver matchups (YP/Tarmogoyf/a whole bunch of stuff from BUG), Stoneblade matchups (SFM, Jitte, other value), and even Lands (Chalice on 1, or a timely Loam/Punishing Fire counter). I also chose Snare over Pierce because it hits Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and Baleful Strix (which is an enormous pest).

This list has a surprisingly good matchup against Lands and Shardless, as I've played four tournament matches against these decks now and have yet to lose a match (I even beat Shardless on a mull to 4 in game 1, and mulled to 6 three or four times against the Lands players). Putting a lot of early pressure on Lands can be more than they can deal with. I also beat Miracles once and I felt pretty solid about the matchup, especially considering he resolved 3 Terminus (each getting multiple creatures) in one game and I won anyway. I think my prediction about the metagame was correct, and that the slower, grindy decks cannot keep pace with fast tempo decks without DTT. They may adjust, but right now this build is hitting a sweet spot in the metagame.

I also changed my mana base and added basics. I am too afraid of wasteland :(
I play: 7 fetch, 3 wastelands, 2 volcanic, 1 usea, 1 tropical, 2 islands, 1 swamp, 1 mountain

but my list is in general a bit different. I play 3 stifle instead of your cabal, 2 tnn and 4 deathrite instead of your 4 monastery, 3 abbot.
I love the tnn's. too powerful.

well, u are not the only one who is working on that deck. :)

HNana
10-25-2015, 02:13 AM
I won a small 8 man weekly legacy tourney with the decklist delvis posted: https://twitter.com/HBSTnipponbashi/status/658105973643456512
I changed around 1 abbot for a 4th cabal therapy, and the sideboard i made to deal with my meta.

Round 1 I beat blue control (propaganda/vendalken shackles, counterspell, back to basics etc) deck 2-0 pretty easy with delver, swiftspear and therapy.

Round 2 I beat miracles by beating with one beater at a time (letting him terminus away a single swiftspear etc), and just beating to the face. Sided in some hate for top and he couldnt deal with it. 2-0

Round 3 I beat omnishow really easy. He burning wishes for a show and tell turn 2, i play therapy, he fow's it, i daze the fow, and then name s/t, he's left with omniscience and a release the ants. He plays release the ants to deal 1 damage to me, i reveal a ponder, he reveals a land, it goes to the graveyard and he scoops.

Game 2 I thoughtseize, he fow. He resolves a turn 3 s/t, puts omni into play. He doesnt have any more cantrips or anything, and i've got fow backup. He plays another omni and passes. I git probe him, he reveals a land, i double pyroblast his omnis and then extrapate his show and tells and he scoops.
2-0

I won 6 games in a row. The decklist is legit, but if it runs out of gas I tended to have a lot of trouble. When it's good, it's really good though, grixis is not to be counted out!

cherson
10-25-2015, 04:17 PM
I won a small 8 man weekly legacy tourney with the decklist delvis posted: https://twitter.com/HBSTnipponbashi/status/658105973643456512
I changed around 1 abbot for a 4th cabal therapy, and the sideboard i made to deal with my meta.

Round 1 I beat blue control (propaganda/vendalken shackles, counterspell, back to basics etc) deck 2-0 pretty easy with delver, swiftspear and therapy.

Round 2 I beat miracles by beating with one beater at a time (letting him terminus away a single swiftspear etc), and just beating to the face. Sided in some hate for top and he couldnt deal with it. 2-0

Round 3 I beat omnishow really easy. He burning wishes for a show and tell turn 2, i play therapy, he fow's it, i daze the fow, and then name s/t, he's left with omniscience and a release the ants. He plays release the ants to deal 1 damage to me, i reveal a ponder, he reveals a land, it goes to the graveyard and he scoops.

Game 2 I thoughtseize, he fow. He resolves a turn 3 s/t, puts omni into play. He doesnt have any more cantrips or anything, and i've got fow backup. He plays another omni and passes. I git probe him, he reveals a land, i double pyroblast his omnis and then extrapate his show and tells and he scoops.
2-0

I won 6 games in a row. The decklist is legit, but if it runs out of gas I tended to have a lot of trouble. When it's good, it's really good though, grixis is not to be counted out!

interesting, well done. how do u feel abt abbot? I am not quite sure if he is really 'better' than tnn.
what did u cast when he entered the battlefield? was it game breaking?

HNana
10-26-2015, 12:09 AM
interesting, well done. how do u feel abt abbot? I am not quite sure if he is really 'better' than tnn.
what did u cast when he entered the battlefield? was it game breaking?
I usually cast him after a previous or eot brainstorm, usually for something like a swift spear or a bolt.
He was good as a card advantage engine, and when I cleared my opponents board he was a faster clock than Tnn, but I think Tnn might be overall better just for being a threat that's very very hard to deal with if it resolves. It was worth trying out but in the end I would say Tnn is just better.

cherson
10-29-2015, 07:51 AM
I usually cast him after a previous or eot brainstorm, usually for something like a swift spear or a bolt.
He was good as a card advantage engine, and when I cleared my opponents board he was a faster clock than Tnn, but I think Tnn might be overall better just for being a threat that's very very hard to deal with if it resolves. It was worth trying out but in the end I would say Tnn is just better.

basically u can't play him before round three because u need (at least) one free mana for the exiled spell.
I will stick to the tnn. I am not convinced of abbot...

did anyone change somehting on the last decks? I fallen in love with stifle. stifling a fetch land and seeing the opp face is just what makes me happy :laugh:

Whitefaces
10-29-2015, 08:15 AM
I tried this at my LGS this week. Bit of a weak 2-2 finish, but one loss was to my friend on a 74 card mirror and the other was to a more typical Grixis Delver deck, I think I played that match suboptimally and got wastelanded out then zombie fished. Beat Bant Retreat and Shardless (with 3 deluge md!).

The idea behind it was porting a BUG delver list with 2x Bob and 2x TNN I've had a small bit of success with into a Grixis built as bolt is just insane. But the antisynergy of DRS and Volc was more apparent than comfortable in a few games.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
8 blue fetch


SB:
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Flusterstorm
1 Sudden Demise
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Fire Covenant

ironclad8690
10-29-2015, 10:51 AM
I tried this at my LGS this week. Bit of a weak 2-2 finish, but one loss was to my friend on a 74 card mirror and the other was to a more typical Grixis Delver deck, I think I played that match suboptimally and got wastelanded out then zombie fished. Beat Bant Retreat and Shardless (with 3 deluge md!).

The idea behind it was porting a BUG delver list with 2x Bob and 2x TNN I've had a small bit of success with into a Grixis built as bolt is just insane. But the antisynergy of DRS and Volc was more apparent than comfortable in a few games.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
8 blue fetch


SB:
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Flusterstorm
1 Sudden Demise
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Fire Covenant

Nice list, I always wanted to try Bob in a similar way, but I always just went with Zombie fish instead.

Whitefaces
10-29-2015, 12:09 PM
Nice list, I always wanted to try Bob in a similar way, but I always just went with Zombie fish instead.

Zombie fish was a consideration, might try it at some point in the future. I'm just a huge fan of Bob as he always overperforms for me in decks with cheap disruption. Obviously the strain of Bob vs high CMC is the reason to not include both, but they also perform different roles. The fish is just a beater, which we have in Delver and TNN, though they both have evasion too, whereas bob is utility. It's not as simple as replacing one with the other imo.

Moving forward, I feel like the correct number for both Bob and TNN is 2 in these tempo decks, whatever the flavour. One is enough to make an impact on the game, drawing multiples can be clunky. Not sure where the other two creatures come from though, possibly two YP. All threats would be attacking on different angles which is attractive.

I might switch the Stifle/Pierce split to 4/2 as well. Stifle is just better in multiples. I pierce cantrips very aggressively, but they can still get clogged up in hand on occasion.

blablub
10-29-2015, 02:31 PM
Nice, im toying around with nearly the same List, just -1 True-Name Nemesis + 1 Abrupt Decay and i switched a Volcanic Island for a Taiga. Taiga feels really good because u gonna fetch Underground Sea first most of the Time.

Still not sure about the Sideboard. How much Disruption do you need against Storm? Do you want Discard to fight Combo? and i'm still not sure about the Removalspells you want to have Postboard...

I dont like the Fish in this type of Deck because its more or likley a lategame - Thread like the Nemesis

cherson
10-29-2015, 03:43 PM
Nice, im toying around with nearly the same List, just -1 True-Name Nemesis + 1 Abrupt Decay and i switched a Volcanic Island for a Taiga. Taiga feels really good because u gonna fetch Underground Sea first most of the Time.

Still not sure about the Sideboard. How much Disruption do you need against Storm? Do you want Discard to fight Combo? and i'm still not sure about the Removalspells you want to have Postboard...

I dont like the Fish in this type of Deck because its more or likley a lategame - Thread like the Nemesis


hmm. I don't like non island duals. I tried badlands but I somehow ended up not having the blue mana/island for my 1 instants or daze.
concerning fish, I really like him. we don't need the cards in our graveyard anymore and dropping him round 3-4 is just game breaking.

tescrin
10-29-2015, 07:18 PM
I have a buddy trying this for me:

-13-
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
2 Angler
1 Tasigur
2 Sulfur Elemental

-28-
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

-19-
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
8 blue fetch


I've been happy with the early testing since Sulfur Elemental is:
-Immune to Counterspells for other Delver decks/Miracles
-Difficult to CounterTop against
-Kills planeswalkers or bolts the opponent with psuedo-haste
-Hedges against Maverick/D&T in the main; especially next to Forked bolt

It's better than it looks on paper I think; we'll see how he does tonight.

I'm trying Kolaghan's as a hedge against Equips that were doing good against him in testing.

Maerlin
11-01-2015, 11:10 AM
Hello guys, these days I'm trying to get up after the DDT ban. I'm testing Bob too, but I don't know if i'm in the right path here.
Today I playtested it vs Elves and vs Burn and 2 times a FoW reveal by Bob almost killed me. What's the "best" way to play with Bob?

This is my list:

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Forked Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

My Sideboard is still pretty generic and it looks like this:

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sudden Demise
2 Dread of Night

I'm really fishing for some advice here. :(
Thanks in advance guys!

HNana
11-01-2015, 09:27 PM
basically u can't play him before round three because u need (at least) one free mana for the exiled spell.
I will stick to the tnn. I am not convinced of abbot...

did anyone change somehting on the last decks? I fallen in love with stifle. stifling a fetch land and seeing the opp face is just what makes me happy :laugh:
While abbot worked well against miracles because of the etb effect, tnn is still so much better overall and can just win so hard pre-board against a lot of decks. I had to also worry about casting it and then not being able to play the card, so it was more effort than it needed to be for me. Tnn is just play it, turn it sideways.

Heck, bob serves a similar purpose (extra cards) and just does it a lot better imo.

cherson
11-02-2015, 06:23 AM
While abbot worked well against miracles because of the etb effect, tnn is still so much better overall and can just win so hard pre-board against a lot of decks. I had to also worry about casting it and then not being able to play the card, so it was more effort than it needed to be for me. Tnn is just play it, turn it sideways.

Heck, bob serves a similar purpose (extra cards) and just does it a lot better imo.

that is exactly the point I don't like on abbot, there is always a risk that u can't play the card u exile.
I won't play him.

bob is actually the best alternative to draw more cards. but that wld mean I have to cut the fish and I don't like the idea.
currently I play two tnn and two fish. cutting fish means I got only two creatures which are immune to bolt, decay.
fish is also great against CB...
but the card advantage of bob, heck I don't know :(

Delvis
11-02-2015, 08:53 AM
that is exactly the point I don't like on abbot, there is always a risk that u can't play the card u exile.
I won't play him.

I mean, that's fine, but did you actually test him or are you just dismissing him outright? Because you can wring your hands about your decklist in theory all week long but if you don't give testing time to the different options, you're not doing your deck justice. Keep in mind that you play 8 cards that control the top of your deck to allow you to set up an ideal Abbot.

I'm going to be testing a list with TNN and Stifles instead of Abbots and Therapies to see if it's better. It might be, but I haven't figured that out yet because I haven't tested it.

The other direction I'm thinking is playing a few copies of Sensei's Divining Top to add more ways to control the top of my library, and to set up a little mini-combo with all the Prowess creatures. Could be good, could be terrible. Not sure yet.


While abbot worked well against miracles because of the etb effect, tnn is still so much better overall and can just win so hard pre-board against a lot of decks. I had to also worry about casting it and then not being able to play the card, so it was more effort than it needed to be for me. Tnn is just play it, turn it sideways.

Heck, bob serves a similar purpose (extra cards) and just does it a lot better imo.

The point of Abbot isn't just extra cards. He's a threat that immediately replaces himself and presents a lot of damage in the form of Prowess, something Bob doesn't offer. Considering that Bob is such a non-bo with Force and Delve, I think Abbot is definitely the better option there.

I agree with you on TNN. The metagame is starting to settle into a place where I don't think people are packing enough hate for him, because the hot deck is Shardless. And I think you can pack sideboard protection for him in the matchups where they have something like Golgari Charm. As I said before, I'll be testing him this week.

Quasim0ff
11-02-2015, 09:15 AM
that is exactly the point I don't like on abbot, there is always a risk that u can't play the card u exile.
I won't play him.


Abbot is insane. He's really strong.

jrsthethird
11-02-2015, 05:19 PM
Not to mention that cantrips help to mitigate the downside of playing Abbot. Not that it matters much for Legacy, but Serum Visions plays better with Abbot than Preordain.

cherson
11-03-2015, 06:31 AM
I mean, that's fine, but did you actually test him or are you just dismissing him outright? Because you can wring your hands about your decklist in theory all week long but if you don't give testing time to the different options, you're not doing your deck justice. Keep in mind that you play 8 cards that control the top of your deck to allow you to set up an ideal Abbot.

I'm going to be testing a list with TNN and Stifles instead of Abbots and Therapies to see if it's better. It might be, but I haven't figured that out yet because I haven't tested it.

The other direction I'm thinking is playing a few copies of Sensei's Divining Top to add more ways to control the top of my library, and to set up a little mini-combo with all the Prowess creatures. Could be good, could be terrible. Not sure yet.

The point of Abbot isn't just extra cards. He's a threat that immediately replaces himself and presents a lot of damage in the form of Prowess, something Bob doesn't offer. Considering that Bob is such a non-bo with Force and Delve, I think Abbot is definitely the better option there.

I agree with you on TNN. The metagame is starting to settle into a place where I don't think people are packing enough hate for him, because the hot deck is Shardless. And I think you can pack sideboard protection for him in the matchups where they have something like Golgari Charm. As I said before, I'll be testing him this week.

well, your are right and I have to admit that I didn't test him. but for my deck I consider cutting 2x fish and play 2x abbot or 2x bob.
of course I have 8 cards to control the top, but I have to use the shuffle frm ponder -> no top control for abbot. I have to fetch after brainstorm -> no top control for abbot.
I know it is not common because most of the time u can work with the three cards.

anyway, I agree with you that testing is the key and everything else is just theory. but all of us playing this deck and we shld share our opinions / results.

mustardback
11-03-2015, 12:36 PM
well, your are right and I have to admit that I didn't test him. but for my deck I consider cutting 2x fish and play 2x abbot or 2x bob.
of course I have 8 cards to control the top, but I have to use the shuffle frm ponder -> no top control for abbot. I have to fetch after brainstorm -> no top control for abbot.
I know it is not common because most of the time u can work with the three cards.

anyway, I agree with you that testing is the key and everything else is just theory. but all of us playing this deck and we shld share our opinions / results.

I've been playing with abbot for the last couple of weeks now, and I've got to say I've been thoroughly happy to see him in my hands. I cut two pyromancers for two abbots and kind of treat him like half a dig through time. It's definitely important to set him up before you play him, which adds a "fun" challenge to the deck (as if legacy wasn't hard enough to play already), but you know what? I'm an adult and can practice patience and cast cards when I can get out of them what I want.

Like, Delvis said, on a clear board he closes the game very quickly and when paired with another "must block threat" he can be free damage from prowess. In one game, I had two on board against RUG with my opp at thirteen life. A probe, a brainstorm, and a bolt later my opponent had taken lethal. The nice thing as opposed to YP is the urgency to the damage he can provide. I like having both of course, but it's just another tool to help you switch gears, which is the point of tempo in my opinion. Sometimes you wanna durdle and wait with tokens. Sometimes you wanna close the game out. Sometimes you wanna force your opponent into bad blocks (which the prowess provides). Also, it's been really nice to hold abbot against terminus and verdict to set up a second threat after the wipe, wait for them to pull the trigger and rebuild the board quickly.

Bob is a different animal it seems. You could try keeping him in the board and bring it in in the matchups where you take out force anyways, though then you may need to abandon the angler. But at that point you may even want to try sylvan library out of the board and then you can keep your forces and anglers.

Opinion shared.

h2o
11-06-2015, 09:10 AM
The primary difference between Abbot/Swiftspear and other threats is that they encourage you play your spells at sorcery speed rather than instant speed. So you're basically trading flexibility for power. Whether or not this is a good thing is highly situational.

Delvis
11-06-2015, 11:47 AM
The primary difference between Abbot/Swiftspear and other threats is that they encourage you play your spells at sorcery speed rather than instant speed. So you're basically trading flexibility for power. Whether or not this is a good thing is highly situational.

Probe and Ponder are both sorceries, as is Cabal Therapy. This is the primary reason I swapped my Stifles for Therapies, which I think is ultimately a lateral move or even an improvement, even though I do miss my Stifles.

They do prompt you to play your Probes aggressively, rather than waiting to set up a Therapy. However, I don't think this temptation is really strong unless you have multiple Prowess creatures, at which point it's actually pretty strong value to pull the trigger. Considering my list plays fewer YPs, your Therapies are more dependent on Probes to be good, so if you're only getting 1 trigger, that isn't worth it (unless, of course, it's lethal, or puts them into Lightning Bolt range, etc).

Outside of that, you get fine value out of holding your instants as normal. Holding up mana and attacking is often enough to force damage through, because your opponent is hesitant to block your dudes, even with a large Tarmogoyf (or Angler/Tasigur). A 5/6 Goyf will die to a Bolt if it blocks an Abbot, or a Brainstorm + Bolt if if blocks a Swiftspear.

h2o
11-06-2015, 12:48 PM
Personally I don't usually play Swiftspear unless I'm also playing some copies of Chain Lightning, and I'd probably use the same logic for Abbot.

Delvis
11-06-2015, 10:29 PM
Personally I don't usually play Swiftspear unless I'm also playing some copies of Chain Lightning, and I'd probably use the same logic for Abbot.

Interesting. Chain Lightning is a card I've been wanting to try out in the main deck. MD Therapy has been underwhelming with low numbers of YP, so I may try it out.

Delvis
11-09-2015, 06:38 AM
A few observations from the Top 8 at the GP:

- Grixis Delver is clearly still a very competitive deck, even without the changes I've been making. Basically, you can swap Digs for Anglers and you've got an updated list. We saw that at EE with Ed Demicco and now we've seen it at GP SeaTac with the Calculator.
- Calcano's match against Jarvis is basically the reason why I've made the changes I've made. Lands is incredibly popular in my area, and my list has a better matchup against that deck. Playing the more traditional list is fine, and you can and will succeed with it, but in a heavy Lands meta you will only get so far before running into the Lands buzzsaw.
- Legacy is awesome and shame on SCG for abandoning us. Props to Tales of Adventure for stepping up into the void and helping replace some of that lost value.

Draggo
11-09-2015, 06:52 AM
So I just played with the next list at the Legacy Open Series Eindhoven and would like to hear some thoughts on what you think of it.


12 Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

30 Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dead // Gone
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

18 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

/Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Mana Maze
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Terminate
1 Hydroblast


Round 1 vs Shardsless: 1-0-0
Win the die-roll, he mulled 3 times, win game 1 without knowing what I'm up against. Wasted his land and I had 2 Shaman in play when he scooped.
Game 2 I didn't board anything becouse I didn't know the match-up yet. Landed Angler and beated him down with it.

Round 2 vs Miracles: 2-0-0
Win the die-roll. Game 1 I beat him down really slowly with Delver I manage to protect hating his manabase. Shaman finished the job when Delver finally got killed.
Game 2 I took out the 4 Bolts and the Dead//Gone to add 2 Decay, Dimir Charm, True-Name, Needle and Null Rod. Thinking I could hate his Top and fight the Terminus.
Ended up beating him down with Delver/Shaman on a slow pace. Proberly should have kept the Bolts in the deck to get some finish range instead of relying on the aggro.

Round 3 vs Sylvan Plug: 2-1-0
Win the die-roll again. Game 1 I get hit with Chalice@1, Trinisphere and Choke. I try to get my spells down to slam Angler, but it was just a bit too late. Got him down to 6 mosly becouse of his own tomb.
I swapped the 2 Probes and 4 Stifles for Grudge, 2 Decays True-Name, Terminate and Submerge
Game 2 I can get control and he scoops.
Game 3 was close, but at the end I didn't grab my green land/fetch in time to cast Decay on his Knight of the Reliquary. Together with 2 Obstinate Baloth and a he could fight my Angler and True-Name after he topdecked Toxic Deluge to kill the True-Name.

Round 4 vs RUG/Threshold: 2-2-0
Lost the die-roll. Game 1 he beat me with 2 delvers that flip pritty late, but he was able to kill my 2 Delvers and Shaman with Bolts/Forked Bolt. Angler just hit too late on my side of the table.
Swapped 4 Forces and 2 Probes for 2 Pyroblast, Hydroblast, Submerge, True-Name and Terminate.
Game 2 I waste/stifle away and hit Angler for the win without trouble.
Swapped Force/Dazes back since I'm on the draw this game.
Game 3 was really close. In the end, he landed Goose and I took a beating too much before I could find Angler to stop it, with was on the top of my deck when he drew Bolt for the win before I could activate my Shaman to get my life back up.

Round 5 vs Jund: 3-2-0
I lose the die-roll. Game 1 He starts of with Badlands. I drop Delver and waste him. He wasn't alble to get more land in play becouse of stifles and drops fast.
I didn't board anything for game 2 since I had no idea what I was up against.
Game 2 I figured he was playing JUND. Managed to control his lands again and beat with Angler/Shaman/Delver.

Round 6 vs Elves: 4-2-0
I lose the die-roll. Game 1 I shoot every bolt I find to his creatures and counter the Glipses. KIll him with a Delver.
Swapped 2 Probe, 4 Daze, 2 Angler and 1 Stifle for Needle, Submerge, Mana Maze, Dimir Charm, 2 Decay, True-Name, Cage and Terminate.
Game 2 I got beat down by Ruric Thar I didn't have the counter for.
Game 3 I try to pierce (instead of pitching pierce to FoW I had on hand) his Glipse, him having only 2 cards on hand and no mana left if he would pay it. He pays off, drops Cradle and combo's for a load of Elves. I manage to use the Force to counter the Craterhoof. I manage to kill him with Delver at the 5th turn of out-of-time-turns by dropping a Needle on his Shamans he found to keep him alive towards a draw.


Round 7 vs Elves: 5-2-0
I win the die-roll. Game 1 I get slammed with Ruric Thar.
Swapped 2 Probe, 4 Daze, 2 Angler and 1 Stifle for Needle, Submerge, Mana Maze, Dimir Charm, 2 Decay, True-Name, Cage and Terminate.
Game 2 I kill everything he drops and with a good board position on my side, he scoopes to get to game 3.
Game 3 was really tough. At the end I managed to gain board position with Mana Maze, Needle, Angler, Saman, True-Name and drop a Clique on his turn before I got leathal. I make a huge mistake shipping out his Craterhoof that he could not cast that turn. With the other 2 cards being Natural Order and Elvish Visionary. He drew a Decay out of the Clique, killed the Maze and drew another Elf from the Visionary so he could leathal with N.O. to Craterhoof. He sacrificed the wrong creature so he missed leathal and I still won. Proberly becouse we were both too flabbergasted by the misplay of the Clique and the comeback with the Decay.

I ended on spot 11, getting some boosters for being top 16.
It was a fun day, made some good plays and some terrible mistakes (like the Clique). But at the end, I'm happy with the result.

Most fun play of the day: Decay an Elf on the opponents upkeep with Mana Maze in play to get myself a time-walk.

If anyone here has some thoughts on the main deck, sideboard or boarding actions, please leave a note.

Delvis
11-09-2015, 10:57 AM
So I just played with the next list at the Legacy Open Series Eindhoven and would like to hear some thoughts on what you think of it.


12 Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

30 Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dead // Gone
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

18 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

/Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Mana Maze
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Terminate
1 Hydroblast


Round 1 vs Shardsless: 1-0-0
Win the die-roll, he mulled 3 times, win game 1 without knowing what I'm up against. Wasted his land and I had 2 Shaman in play when he scooped.
Game 2 I didn't board anything becouse I didn't know the match-up yet. Landed Angler and beated him down with it.

Round 2 vs Miracles: 2-0-0
Win the die-roll. Game 1 I beat him down really slowly with Delver I manage to protect hating his manabase. Shaman finished the job when Delver finally got killed.
Game 2 I took out the 4 Bolts and the Dead//Gone to add 2 Decay, Dimir Charm, True-Name, Needle and Null Rod. Thinking I could hate his Top and fight the Terminus.
Ended up beating him down with Delver/Shaman on a slow pace. Proberly should have kept the Bolts in the deck to get some finish range instead of relying on the aggro.

Round 3 vs Sylvan Plug: 2-1-0
Win the die-roll again. Game 1 I get hit with Chalice@1, Trinisphere and Choke. I try to get my spells down to slam Angler, but it was just a bit too late. Got him down to 6 mosly becouse of his own tomb.
I swapped the 2 Probes and 4 Stifles for Grudge, 2 Decays True-Name, Terminate and Submerge
Game 2 I can get control and he scoops.
Game 3 was close, but at the end I didn't grab my green land/fetch in time to cast Decay on his Knight of the Reliquary. Together with 2 Obstinate Baloth and a he could fight my Angler and True-Name after he topdecked Toxic Deluge to kill the True-Name.

Round 4 vs RUG/Threshold: 2-2-0
Lost the die-roll. Game 1 he beat me with 2 delvers that flip pritty late, but he was able to kill my 2 Delvers and Shaman with Bolts/Forked Bolt. Angler just hit too late on my side of the table.
Swapped 4 Forces and 2 Probes for 2 Pyroblast, Hydroblast, Submerge, True-Name and Terminate.
Game 2 I waste/stifle away and hit Angler for the win without trouble.
Swapped Force/Dazes back since I'm on the draw this game.
Game 3 was really close. In the end, he landed Goose and I took a beating too much before I could find Angler to stop it, with was on the top of my deck when he drew Bolt for the win before I could activate my Shaman to get my life back up.

Round 5 vs Jund: 3-2-0
I lose the die-roll. Game 1 He starts of with Badlands. I drop Delver and waste him. He wasn't alble to get more land in play becouse of stifles and drops fast.
I didn't board anything for game 2 since I had no idea what I was up against.
Game 2 I figured he was playing JUND. Managed to control his lands again and beat with Angler/Shaman/Delver.

Round 6 vs Elves: 4-2-0
I lose the die-roll. Game 1 I shoot every bolt I find to his creatures and counter the Glipses. KIll him with a Delver.
Swapped 2 Probe, 4 Daze, 2 Angler and 1 Stifle for Needle, Submerge, Mana Maze, Dimir Charm, 2 Decay, True-Name, Cage and Terminate.
Game 2 I got beat down by Ruric Thar I didn't have the counter for.
Game 3 I try to pierce (instead of pitching pierce to FoW I had on hand) his Glipse, him having only 2 cards on hand and no mana left if he would pay it. He pays off, drops Cradle and combo's for a load of Elves. I manage to use the Force to counter the Craterhoof. I manage to kill him with Delver at the 5th turn of out-of-time-turns by dropping a Needle on his Shamans he found to keep him alive towards a draw.


Round 7 vs Elves: 5-2-0
I win the die-roll. Game 1 I get slammed with Ruric Thar.
Swapped 2 Probe, 4 Daze, 2 Angler and 1 Stifle for Needle, Submerge, Mana Maze, Dimir Charm, 2 Decay, True-Name, Cage and Terminate.
Game 2 I kill everything he drops and with a good board position on my side, he scoopes to get to game 3.
Game 3 was really tough. At the end I managed to gain board position with Mana Maze, Needle, Angler, Saman, True-Name and drop a Clique on his turn before I got leathal. I make a huge mistake shipping out his Craterhoof that he could not cast that turn. With the other 2 cards being Natural Order and Elvish Visionary. He drew a Decay out of the Clique, killed the Maze and drew another Elf from the Visionary so he could leathal with N.O. to Craterhoof. He sacrificed the wrong creature so he missed leathal and I still won. Proberly becouse we were both too flabbergasted by the misplay of the Clique and the comeback with the Decay.

I ended on spot 11, getting some boosters for being top 16.
It was a fun day, made some good plays and some terrible mistakes (like the Clique). But at the end, I'm happy with the result.

Most fun play of the day: Decay an Elf on the opponents upkeep with Mana Maze in play to get myself a time-walk.

If anyone here has some thoughts on the main deck, sideboard or boarding actions, please leave a note.

Congrats on the finish!
- How was Dead//Gone for you? It's a curious choice. Did it work well?
- How was your Mana Maze tech, all things considered?
- What is Sylvan Plug? Knight of the Reliquary and Ancient Tomb? You lost to it, so I'm curious.
- Given your meta, I think you should play Perish in the sideboard. It would have been relevant against literally every deck you played, except Miracles. That's crazy value. Kills your DRS but wipes their table, and is a clean out to Mongoose.

Jaytron
11-09-2015, 01:14 PM
Looks like Grixis Delver is still doing very well post ban, despite the naysayers (me included). That's exciting to see.

I miss DRS, Young P and Cabal Therapy over at the RUG camp.

Draggo
11-09-2015, 06:20 PM
Congrats on the finish!
- How was Dead//Gone for you? It's a curious choice. Did it work well?
- How was your Mana Maze tech, all things considered?
- What is Sylvan Plug? Knight of the Reliquary and Ancient Tomb? You lost to it, so I'm curious.
- Given your meta, I think you should play Perish in the sideboard. It would have been relevant against literally every deck you played, except Miracles. That's crazy value. Kills your DRS but wipes their table, and is a clean out to Mongoose.

Sylvan Plug green(/black/white) stompy. This guy played something similiar to the decks you see in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy) . The deck basily messes up blue-based decks.

Dead//Gone is something I pulled out of the sideboard into the main board to have a 5th removal spell. I noticed myself bringing it in alot of times against alot of different match-ups so I figured I might as well pop it in the main deck. I'm still not sure if this is the right removal for the main deck. It's pritty good being able to shock most creatures on instand, and occasionaly bounce a goyf/Angler along the way. It preformed good for me so far.

Good call on the Parish, going to sleeve it up for the next tournement. I havn't played it for a while becouse of the Shamans. But then again, hitting a single Shaman to sweep a board sounds like a plan.
Proberly end up cutting the Hydroblast.

The Mana Maze tech is doing well so far. It was really effective the Elves match-up since he can't combo with Glipse anymore or build up alot of creeps quick to ramp up. I've also got it against a Belcher deck another time and it screwed the deck to a point I had the time to build up a hand of counters with a clock on the board. Also tested it a couple of times against Burn with succes. Same story with Elves: no quick combo's anymore. Also occasional timewalks when bolting in the enemy upkeep. Other storm decks should be fine to to beat while having the Maze in play, but I havn't managed to have it in play yet against them.

Delvis
11-10-2015, 08:31 AM
Sylvan Plug green(/black/white) stompy. This guy played something similiar to the decks you see in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy) . The deck basily messes up blue-based decks.

Dead//Gone is something I pulled out of the sideboard into the main board to have a 5th removal spell. I noticed myself bringing it in alot of times against alot of different match-ups so I figured I might as well pop it in the main deck. I'm still not sure if this is the right removal for the main deck. It's pritty good being able to shock most creatures on instand, and occasionaly bounce a goyf/Angler along the way. It preformed good for me so far.

Good call on the Parish, going to sleeve it up for the next tournement. I havn't played it for a while becouse of the Shamans. But then again, hitting a single Shaman to sweep a board sounds like a plan.
Proberly end up cutting the Hydroblast.

The Mana Maze tech is doing well so far. It was really effective the Elves match-up since he can't combo with Glipse anymore or build up alot of creeps quick to ramp up. I've also got it against a Belcher deck another time and it screwed the deck to a point I had the time to build up a hand of counters with a clock on the board. Also tested it a couple of times against Burn with succes. Same story with Elves: no quick combo's anymore. Also occasional timewalks when bolting in the enemy upkeep. Other storm decks should be fine to to beat while having the Maze in play, but I havn't managed to have it in play yet against them.

Thanks for responding!

That Sylvan Plug deck is weird, and seems like a really miserable matchup. Not much you can do when they maindeck Chokes and Chalices.

Regarding Dead//Gone, I usually play Fire//Ice for a 5th removal spell. You can pitch it to Force when it's truly dead, Ice cantrips and can force through damage, and getting to split the two damage can be a big deal in matchups against decks that play lots of small creatures. Ed Demicco maindecked a Fire//Ice in his EE-winning list. Just a thought, if you're unsatisfied with Dead//Gone.

ironclad8690
11-10-2015, 12:51 PM
Glad to see this deck is still alive!

I should probably update the primer to include the latest lists (such as Calacano's), and also with the information about the dig through time ban.

I have been working on a similar version with a buddy at my local store, and he is doing pretty well with it. I panicked and sold my Grixis stuff to build BUG delver, but it doesn't appear to be strictly better in the new metagame, and stifle is actually in a really great spot right now.

h2o
11-10-2015, 12:56 PM
Mana Maze is a bizarre card. What matchups is it for besides Elves?

h2o
11-10-2015, 01:11 PM
Glad to see this deck is still alive!

I should probably update the primer to include the latest lists (such as Calacano's), and also with the information about the dig through time ban.

I have been working on a similar version with a buddy at my local store, and he is doing pretty well with it. I panicked and sold my Grixis stuff to build BUG delver, but it doesn't appear to be strictly better in the new metagame, and stifle is actually in a really great spot right now.

Nice. It might be a good idea to comment on a few of the different styles (more stifle/wasteland, more green/decay).

carnifex
11-10-2015, 03:45 PM
Mana Maze is a bizarre card. What matchups is it for besides Elves?

Storm.

I do like the tech, actually. Sometimes it's best to just slam something and then curve out as normal, rather than neutering your tempo in holding up reactive cards.

I am more interested in hearing from @Delvis about the 0 young pyromancers in the 75.

Delvis
11-10-2015, 04:28 PM
Storm.

I do like the tech, actually. Sometimes it's best to just slam something and then curve out as normal, rather than neutering your tempo in holding up reactive cards.

I am more interested in hearing from @Delvis about the 0 young pyromancers in the 75.

Well it's not my list, but I understand the compulsion to cut the YPs. I probably wouldn't be so bold as to do so in a reactive build like Draggo's, but he's playing in the European meta and I have little familiarity with what he expects to play against. Given his report, the answer so far is, green creatures and lots of them. He posted a decent finish, so it may not be hurting him too much, although it would be fair to ask if he would have done even better with them in the deck.

My build has struggled with Therapies recently; if I haven't set it up with a Probe, it's a very hit-or-miss card. Without a lot of YPs, it's tough to get full value. I've been thinking about tweaking the numbers a bit, perhaps running 2 Therapy and 3 YP, but seeing the success of the Stifle lists recently has been tempting me to return to playing those and abandoning Abbot (for now). If I did move back to the DRS-based list, I would think my first stop at the tech shop would be Painful Truths. It plays the role of Treasure Cruise fairly well, and since all of your protective countermagic is free anyway, paying 3 mana isn't that much of a hindrance. Plus it can't be Pyroblasted, which is actually huge, and Counterbalance struggles to counter 3s.

As a follow-on to that, the next stop would be the planeswalker aisle for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Ed Demicco played 2 Snapcaster Mage in his sideboard in his Top 8 list from Legacy Champs, and my idea would be using the JVP in this role, with the primary reasoning being his larger long-term impact on the board and his comparative mana-thriftiness (since you don't have to pay his mana cost in the same turn as you pay for the spell's cost). Flashing back Painful Truths with the JVP is good in Standard, but when you're drawing Force of Wills and Brainstorms it gets a lot more better.

And, I just thought I'd mention, Mana Maze has utility against Shardless as well, since it basically shuts off Shardless' Cascade (80% of the things they can cascade into can't be played). You can also still Stifle the final Suspend trigger on their Ancestral Vision, since the Vision hasn't actually been played yet - and if you do, they can't really interact with the Stifle. It can be Abrupt Decay'd, but I think if that's what they are Decaying, you're doing alright. Again, keep in mind he's playing in the European meta, which (based on his list and report) seems to be heavily populated with Elves. I'm not sold on it yet, but if he likes it and it's been good for him, it's hard to argue with success. Plus it's always fun to make people read your sideboard cards.

Draggo
11-10-2015, 05:17 PM
Delvis is right on point. I play Anglers to be able to play more reactive. I used to play 4 pyro for a long time and then tried any mix between 1-4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Sultai Scavenger. To my suprize, against the many BUG/Patriot decks for a while in the local meta, the Scavangers were backbreaking. They hit so fast without BUG being able to awnser them that the match-up was highly favored for me. Later on I swapped them towards Tasigur and Angler becouse Grixis/4-Color was getting more populair. Also the meta was packing up sweepers so the Pyromancers were not that strong anymore.
Also having to pay a single mana for a big beater and have countermana/stifle mana open makes a difference. I can drop wastelands and Stifles without problems becouse I don't need to get up to 3 mana with this list.

Some matches it's better to have a big guy hitting, other times it's better to have a ton of little brads hitting. At the moment it's a matter of preference I think. Both work fine.

Thanks for the tip on Mana Maze vs Shardless, going to try it.

I'm not sure about Painful Truths. It seems a bit odd to tap-out with 3 mana on your own turn to draw a few cards. But it might be my playstyle with the deck.

h2o
11-10-2015, 11:55 PM
If I'm going to run a 3 mana spell it's going to be K-Command.

jrsthethird
11-11-2015, 01:26 AM
If I'm going to run a 3 mana spell it's going to be K-Command.

Realize
11-12-2015, 02:15 AM
A friend day 2d SeaTac with 4 Dark Confidants and no Gurmags. I think that has a lot of promise in the stifle builds. It means being really weak to -1/-1 effects of course.

h2o
11-12-2015, 08:45 AM
my local meta has BUG Delver, so I don't want to overextend vs Golgari Charm. plus Angler matches up well against Goyf.

Delvis
11-12-2015, 10:47 AM
Yeah, I've played Tasigur and Angler and between the two, I would play the fourth Angler before the first Tasigur. And then probably move on to Tombstalker. The reason why is, Miracles and Lands are two of the biggest decks in my meta, followed by Stoneblade and Shardless, and Karakas sees play in 3 of those and the other plays Tarmogoyf. I have had a Tasigur get stonewalled by Karakas so many times that I feel like I have to point to where it touched me on a doll. And then activating him would almost always net me garbage. I preferred the way Angler matched up against Goyf and the way it ignored Karakas, and unlike in Modern where Tasigur works better with Thought Scour because math, you don't play crappy cantrips in Legacy so that's not a factor.

Playing 4 Bobs and zero Anglers may sound like you're asking to get blown out by -1/-1 effects, but almost nobody plays those main so you could even set up a sideboard plan of boarding into things that resist Golgari Charm and then blank half their sideboard. Not sure if that's what your friend did, but it seems completely reasonable.

cherson
11-16-2015, 06:07 AM
after calcano's second place we are now back to 'established decks'?! :cry:

Quasim0ff
11-16-2015, 06:34 AM
after calcano's second place we are now back to 'established decks'?! :cry:

That's not how DTB/Established decks works...

cherson
11-16-2015, 06:48 AM
That's not how DTB/Established decks works...

ok, how does it work?

Quasim0ff
11-16-2015, 06:53 AM
ok, how does it work?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection

Delvis
11-16-2015, 10:44 AM
Went 4-3 yesterday due to boneheadedness, mainly.

Round 1, I drew 11 of my 19 lands in game 1 and then zero red sources in game 2. Against Infect. Not much you can do.

Round 5, I'm 3-1, but I show up late to the round, take a game loss, and lose to Temur Delver which I have plenty of sideboard cards for - as evidenced by the fact that I crushed it 2-0 the very next round.

Round 7, I'm 4-2 and alive for cash finish, but I forget that Thespian's Stage copies the name of the card it copies and die to a Marit Lage with a blank Pithing Needle on the board.

Basically, I only lost to myself and variance, and not the strength of the deck. I played 74 of the 75 I listed earlier in the thread, with the only change being swapping the 3rd Abbot for the 3rd Pyromancer, which was a good decision and paid dividends despite being a minor change, as it made my Therapies much stronger and I won multiple games on the back of an army of Elementals. I actually only resolved an Abbot once all day and it was mostly irrelevant, being creature number 6 or 7 against Death and Taxes who was already dead on board (it also flipped a Daze). Volcanic Spray felt miserable and I basically never wanted it, but I also was unimpressed with Engineered Explosives, so it's becoming a Darkblast to give me extra ways of killing Moms.

This deck is still very strong and well-positioned in the metagame, and while I understand the decision to move it to Established Decks due to decreased meta representation, I think it's a grave error to not expect to play against this deck in the winner's bracket - especially considering Calcano's finish at GP SeaTac and Ed Demicco's win at EE3.

Edit: I also forgot to mention that I 2-0'd Infect later in the tournament as well. So I crushed the two matchups I lost earlier, and the final round was my first loss to Lands in tournament play since the Dig ban. So, seriously. This deck is strong.

tescrin
11-16-2015, 12:17 PM
I've had some luck with Angler and K-Com as well. Been having a friend run a DRS/Angler/Delver/sulfur elemental Stifle list I brewed up running a pair of K-Coms as a nod to equipment rather than decays.

A card that strong against Equips and a Beater that large/cheap is what BR needed to become a much more viable slice of the pie IMO.

Jaytron
11-19-2015, 03:48 PM
What are your guys' general sb plans vs other delver decks? (RUG/BUG/Etc)

I'll use Calcano's list as a baseline for a stock deck for now: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/339787#paper

I know you want darkblast, submerge (vs goyf decks only), pyroblast. I'm pretty on the fence with cabal. Maybe just 2, and bringing out 2 probes?

I bring out all the forces in the matchup, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe on the draw leave in 2 and drop all the daze's?

Surgicals.. maybe seem a bit too cute

tescrin
11-19-2015, 04:14 PM
What are your guys' general sb plans vs other delver decks? (RUG/BUG/Etc)

I know you want darkblast, submerge (vs goyf decks only), pyroblast. I'm pretty on the fence with cabal. Maybe just 2, and bringing out 2 probes?

I bring out all the forces in the matchup, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe on the draw leave in 2 and drop all the daze's?

Surgicals.. maybe seem a bit too cute

->Darkblast I'd only bring in against Grixis. The others only have 4 targets.
->Submerge, as you said
->Cabal. Never? Maybe it's alright for stripping protection, but I think at that point I'd rather have a real card that they just spend protection on? Others should weigh in here.
->Pyroblast seems great
->Surgical is OK if you want to cut them off of a section of mana. Better against RUG than DRS Delver decks. By cutting them off of Green, for instance, you knock out 8 of 12 threats with your 0-mana card.

Normally you shave some Forces on the play, and some dazes on the draw. Some can be "all". There's not a hard-and-fast rule I don't think. There's some bit of next-leveling. Daze is slightly worse against the DRS decks; not only because of DRS, but also because they tend to run an extra land or two.

Delvis
11-19-2015, 04:25 PM
What are your guys' general sb plans vs other delver decks? (RUG/BUG/Etc)

I'll use Calcano's list as a baseline for a stock deck for now: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/339787#paper

I know you want darkblast, submerge (vs goyf decks only), pyroblast. I'm pretty on the fence with cabal. Maybe just 2, and bringing out 2 probes?

I bring out all the forces in the matchup, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe on the draw leave in 2 and drop all the daze's?

Surgicals.. maybe seem a bit too cute

I would just like to note, first off, calling Calc's deck BURg Delver is not just technically wrong, it's a huge error. The only green thing his deck does is activate DRS sometimes. True BURg Delver is a very different deck, jamming Tarmogoyfs and Sylvan Libraries, as well as maindeck Abrupt Decay. But this argument has been hashed out. It just frustrates me.

I'm not sure how Calc did it, but I would probably board like this:

+2 Submerge
+1 Darkblast
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+4 Therapy
-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze (on the draw)
-1 Stifle//-1 Ponder//-1 Probe//-1 Daze (on the play)

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, that's just my initial perspective on it. Cabal Therapy is actually very good - naming their threat is a beating. I won a game (and the match) against a RUG Delver player on Sunday by blind naming Tarmogoyf, which was his only threat in hand. I get a lot of Tarmogoyfs with Therapies, it's the first thing I name in the blind because it's the toughest card for me to answer.

With 2 Submerge, your concern about Tarmogoyf may go down. But I would still bring in Therapies, as the matchup is all about landing a threat and stripping threats out of their hand is one of the more effective ways we have at winning that battle. Unfortunately, there's no sweet tricks with Submerging a creature and then immediately Therapying it back out. Oh well.

Pyroblast and Flusterstorm perform well here. BUG Delver's Decays are a concern, but there's nothing you can really do about that card (besides Therapy but we already talked about that). Both spells allow you to effectively fight a counter war. They may not see Flusterstorm coming, and it's quite good. I was able to protect a Pyromancer by Brainstorming into Flusterstorm for 3 on Swords to Plowshares when my Jeskai Delver opponent had 2 mana left. I untapped with 4 power on the table against his empty board.

Darkblast is fine but is probably the last card I bring in. It's good against Grixis and Jeskai but is simply okay against the green builds. You have a lot of cantrips, though, so you can theoretically set up Upkeep Darkblast>dredge>Main Phase Darkblast and protect it from Deathrite with Brainstorm.

Extraction is weak. You have the potential to Extract your opponent's dual lands, like keeping RUG Delver off Trops, by Wasting into Extraction. I have had my Volcanic Islands Extracted twice by RUG Delver players. I won both games in very short order. I don't think this is the line you want. You leave yourself open to them having one Bayou or Taiga to preserve their green sources, and you're not even necessarily depriving them of a color if they get an active Deathrite.

My boarding is somewhat different because of my different build, but you asked about Calcano's list. I hope I helped!

Jaytron
11-19-2015, 06:48 PM
->Darkblast I'd only bring in against Grixis. The others only have 4 targets.
->Submerge, as you said
->Cabal. Never? Maybe it's alright for stripping protection, but I think at that point I'd rather have a real card that they just spend protection on? Others should weigh in here.
->Pyroblast seems great
->Surgical is OK if you want to cut them off of a section of mana. Better against RUG than DRS Delver decks. By cutting them off of Green, for instance, you knock out 8 of 12 threats with your 0-mana card.

Normally you shave some Forces on the play, and some dazes on the draw. Some can be "all". There's not a hard-and-fast rule I don't think. There's some bit of next-leveling. Daze is slightly worse against the DRS decks; not only because of DRS, but also because they tend to run an extra land or two.

I really like Cabal, because you can strip a threat early. The value to be had off of Young P feels so good too.

Cool, good point on Darkblast. I think I was wrong to bring in my Darkblast vs RUG. You're right, it really only hits an unflipped delver vs RUG.

I've gone back and forth on surgical for the same reason. Seems sweet to surgical RUG off of green, but it's really "cute". It does nothing if they've already resolved their threats.


I would just like to note, first off, calling Calc's deck BURg Delver is not just technically wrong, it's a huge error. The only green thing his deck does is activate DRS sometimes. True BURg Delver is a very different deck, jamming Tarmogoyfs and Sylvan Libraries, as well as maindeck Abrupt Decay. But this argument has been hashed out. It just frustrates me.

I'm not sure how Calc did it, but I would probably board like this:

+2 Submerge
+1 Darkblast
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+4 Therapy
-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze (on the draw)
-1 Stifle//-1 Ponder//-1 Probe//-1 Daze (on the play)

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, that's just my initial perspective on it. Cabal Therapy is actually very good - naming their threat is a beating. I won a game (and the match) against a RUG Delver player on Sunday by blind naming Tarmogoyf, which was his only threat in hand. I get a lot of Tarmogoyfs with Therapies, it's the first thing I name in the blind because it's the toughest card for me to answer.

With 2 Submerge, your concern about Tarmogoyf may go down. But I would still bring in Therapies, as the matchup is all about landing a threat and stripping threats out of their hand is one of the more effective ways we have at winning that battle. Unfortunately, there's no sweet tricks with Submerging a creature and then immediately Therapying it back out. Oh well.

Pyroblast and Flusterstorm perform well here. BUG Delver's Decays are a concern, but there's nothing you can really do about that card (besides Therapy but we already talked about that). Both spells allow you to effectively fight a counter war. They may not see Flusterstorm coming, and it's quite good. I was able to protect a Pyromancer by Brainstorming into Flusterstorm for 3 on Swords to Plowshares when my Jeskai Delver opponent had 2 mana left. I untapped with 4 power on the table against his empty board.

Darkblast is fine but is probably the last card I bring in. It's good against Grixis and Jeskai but is simply okay against the green builds. You have a lot of cantrips, though, so you can theoretically set up Upkeep Darkblast>dredge>Main Phase Darkblast and protect it from Deathrite with Brainstorm.

Extraction is weak. You have the potential to Extract your opponent's dual lands, like keeping RUG Delver off Trops, by Wasting into Extraction. I have had my Volcanic Islands Extracted twice by RUG Delver players. I won both games in very short order. I don't think this is the line you want. You leave yourself open to them having one Bayou or Taiga to preserve their green sources, and you're not even necessarily depriving them of a color if they get an active Deathrite.

My boarding is somewhat different because of my different build, but you asked about Calcano's list. I hope I helped!

To be honest, I was surprised they called it BURG when it is just the same ol Grixis list.

I feel the same way as you regarding therapy. I love bringing them all in against almost any deck as long as I know what deck they're playing. Especially with Young P, there's so much value to be had.

Good point on the Darkblast vs the green decks. I brought mine in, but what You said made a lot of sense. VS Rug, its only target is an unflipped Delver. Goyfs are rarely bigger than zombie fish in the RUG Matchup. Sometimes BUG's goyfs are bigger, so maybe bringing it in on the BUG matchup is worth it.

I think agree w/ surgical. I had my buddy playing RUG surgical my seas and I used DRS to eventually resolve a Zombie Fish and win the game. While surgical-ing them off a color can hose them, I feel like it requires a bit too much setup than we really want to devote.

cherson
11-20-2015, 06:53 AM
isntead of darkblast u cld use disfigure. it is also usefull against drs. or do u often use disfigure for multiple targets? otherwise a forked bolt cld do the same?
I also use electrickery against all these x/1 creatures, also great against elves/gobo.

concering cabal therapy. I also like the synergy with gitaxian first round. not sure how many colcano list had.

Delvis
11-20-2015, 10:40 AM
isntead of darkblast u cld use disfigure. it is also usefull against drs. or do u often use disfigure for multiple targets? otherwise a forked bolt cld do the same?
I also use electrickery against all these x/1 creatures, also great against elves/gobo.

There's a lot of different options for this slot, the anti-"go wide" slot. The advantage that Darkblast has over these other options is the oppressive way it can take over a game. It kills Moms with frequency. It fuels Dredge. Unlike some of the other damage-based options, it can be used in tandem with your creatures to take down a larger creature while leaving your guy on the table. Against most of the decks where you want this type of effect, it's actually very good. The downside is, it's not nearly as useful as something like Electrickery against decks like TES that make a giant pile of Goblins, or Elves which can create a large army quickly. So you gain a solid amount of value against the fair decks while ceding some value against the unfair ones. I'd play Darkblast because I have enough options against decks like TES and Elves already that I feel comfortable ceding that value, and also I want more game against decks like D&T, Infect, or Stoneblade, as well as the Grixis mirror.

As I mentioned, you can set up Darkblast killing a Deathrite with your cantrips. If you go for the upkeep blast into dredge the draw for the turn, your opponent will likely attempt to eat it with the Deathrite you're trying to kill, so if you have Brainstorm in hand you can protect that line of play by dredging the first draw from Brainstorm. It also has a nifty interaction with Brainstorm in that you can Brainstorm end step, put two garbage cards back, then dredge your draw for the turn and mill those garbage cards. Not as slick as fetching away the top 2, but still useful for resetting the top of your library.


concering cabal therapy. I also like the synergy with gitaxian first round. not sure how many colcano list had.

The link's right there. He is playing 4 Probe main with 4 Therapy in the side. Therapy is definitely good main. If you have sufficient knowledge of the metagame, you can even successfully play it without resolving a Probe first, and it's good against fair decks as well as unfair ones. For a big tournament like a GP, and for an East Coast player playing on the West Coast, it's understandable to move them to the sideboard.

h2o
11-21-2015, 05:12 PM
Forces are the first thing to board out against enemy Delver decks. Probes after that. I don't bring in Therapies.

Delvis
11-24-2015, 10:30 AM
Thoughts on Fiery Confluence as a sideboard card? Provides a surprising amount of reach (up to 6 non-targeted damage to your opponent), can kill Thresholded Mongoose armies, etc. Might just be better in my Prowess build since you don't want to deal your own guys too much damage in a more traditional list, but I think it has potential. It's also a sweeper effect that doubles duty as a burn spell and pseudo-Shatterstorm.

Jaytron
11-25-2015, 03:41 AM
Played in my first paper tournament today at a weekly after playing a bunch with friends on cockatrice.

My list was Calcano's list with my own SB:

3 Cabal
2 Pyroblast
2 Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Dread of Night
2 Submerge
1 Clique
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1- VS a sweet brew playing Mizzix's Mastery and Enter the Infinite and Conflagrate
G1- I lose the die roll and mull to 6. He plays a Mountain and plays Gamble. I get really scared that it's lands and force the gamble (he tells me later that lands doesn't run basic mountain.. good to know). I resolve a DRS on my turn. He Izzet Charm's the DRS and I Daze. I eventually flip a delver, and he has no way to answer DRS to combo out.

Sideboard -4 Daze -1 bolt- 1 Probe. +3 Cabal +2 Pyroblast +1 Clique (saw a baby Jace, so I kept bolts in. Also should have boarded in surgicals oops.)

G2- Mull to 6 again. Land a DRS T1 and let him gamble/loot/whatever while I keep a pair of forces and blue cards in my hand. I drain him slowly down and manage to flip 2 delvers. He again has no way to deal with DRS to combo out and dies to beats.
2-0 (1-0)

Round 2- VS Miracles
G1- I win the roll and keep 7. I play a DRS and pass. I daze his top and play a second DRS. He resolves a counterbalance on his turn. I continue to cantrip/drain him out. He blind flips nothing but I do see a mentor go by.

Sideboard -4 Daze -2 FoW -1 Bolt -2 Probe +3 Cabal +2 Pyroblast +1 Clique + 2 Needle +1 Dread of Night

G2- Keep 7, he mulls. He plays top T1, I play DRS T1. T2 I play Young Peezy and Cabal him naming Counterbalance.. whiff. See 2 forces and flashback to name force. I think Counterbalance was a fine blind name? He StP's Peezy and I don't have a response. Sad times. It turns into a very long grindy game swinging in with 1 token and draining with DRS until he gets a relic and starts relic-ing my targets. I get him down to 5, with a 2nd DRS but run out of spells to drain with. On his turn with 6 lands he fetches. I stifle it really just to get spells into my yard. I also stifle the terminus miracle trigger. With 2 cards in the GY, I can drain him. I had pyroblast in hand, so maybe before he even goes to main phase I just pyroblast anything, to have it fizzle and drain before main.
2-0 (2-0)

Round 3- VS a spicy Affinity Tezz brew. It played chalice, pod, things like myr enforcer and frogmite to pod into Griselbrand/Sundering Titan/Massacre Wurm. We ID and play for fun.
G1- I lose the roll and keep 7. I T1 DRS into T2 Ponder, and Delver. T3 Delver flip and play Peezy. I go to probe him and he concedes. He had spicy cards and hand and didn't want to reveal when he had no way to beat my board anyways.

Sideboard- -4 Daze -2 FoW +3 Cabal +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Needle (Unsure what I was really up against, I saw a Mox Opal, lands, and a frogmite I guessed Affinity)
G2- Chalice on 1 T1. :| It's still pretty grindy, but I resolve a Young P which quickly dies (I forget to what). He's down to 9 from his lands, but I have no way to interact with a resolved Tezz which he ults and goes back up to 21, bringing me down to 4. I almost stabilize with a Gurmag Angler and Dismember in hand, but he has 1 too many creatures that get through.

Sideboard -4 Stifle -4 Lightning Bolt +2 Pyroblast +4 Daze +2 FoW (Bring in a bunch of countermagic because I hate chalice).
G3- I probe him T1, see no chalice, but see a Jace TMS. I T1 DRS, play pithing needle naming Jace. The game goes long and he resolves 2 Lodestones. I have 2 flipped Delvers that hold them back. He resolves a few Frogmites and we trade drains for swings. I land a Young P but he resolves an Engineered Plague naming Human. He full swings with 2 Lodestone and 2 Pestermite. When I'm at 8. I block both with DRS and gain 2 life and win on the back swing with 2 delvers.
2-1 (2-0-1.. technically 3-0)

Thoughts: Had a ton of fun. Beating Miracles felt great. Meeting a brew in the 2-0 bracket was sweet. I''m thinking of shifting 2 cabals to the MD because I always bring them in. Really happy that I went 3-0 at my first paper tournament. It makes me feel like all the time I spent reading/researching/goldfishing/watching/playtesting maybe paid off. Any comments on my SB strategies would be very helpful.

Delvis
11-25-2015, 09:28 AM
@Jaytron I think your sideboarding was fine vs. Miracles. Those are all cards that you want.

I also think your blind naming of Counterbalance was 100% correct. It's the card you care most about with him having an active Top. If you name something like Force of Will on the first resolution, he might just have something like Brainstorm or Daze/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm to respond to the flashback and protect any CB he might have. Naming Counterbalance there guarantees you won't be locked under Counterbalance+Top, unless he draws it off the top (but you can't beat the top of his deck anyway).

It's actually flashing back to name Force that I think might have been the error. Did he have Swords to Plowshares in hand? If so, that's the card you name. Force x2 is really just a single Force with a pitch card, which is hugely ineffective against you, especially with an active Pyromancer, so rather than getting a 2-for-1, you're getting a 1-for-1 and guaranteeing that, what, a Lightning Bolt resolves? Stifle on a fetch? Protecting the active Pyromancer there is a lot better than protecting a potential future threat. Keep in mind that if he's Forcing a counterspell or Stifle or Bolt, you're still getting an Elemental out of that spell, which is extra pressure.

This is all moot if he didn't have the STP in hand, but it's something to keep in mind in the future. There's a reason most decks board out Force of Will against us.

Jaytron
11-25-2015, 12:16 PM
@Jaytron I think your sideboarding was fine vs. Miracles. Those are all cards that you want.

I also think your blind naming of Counterbalance was 100% correct. It's the card you care most about with him having an active Top. If you name something like Force of Will on the first resolution, he might just have something like Brainstorm or Daze/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm to respond to the flashback and protect any CB he might have. Naming Counterbalance there guarantees you won't be locked under Counterbalance+Top, unless he draws it off the top (but you can't beat the top of his deck anyway).

It's actually flashing back to name Force that I think might have been the error. Did he have Swords to Plowshares in hand? If so, that's the card you name. Force x2 is really just a single Force with a pitch card, which is hugely ineffective against you, especially with an active Pyromancer, so rather than getting a 2-for-1, you're getting a 1-for-1 and guaranteeing that, what, a Lightning Bolt resolves? Stifle on a fetch? Protecting the active Pyromancer there is a lot better than protecting a potential future threat. Keep in mind that if he's Forcing a counterspell or Stifle or Bolt, you're still getting an Elemental out of that spell, which is extra pressure.

This is all moot if he didn't have the STP in hand, but it's something to keep in mind in the future. There's a reason most decks board out Force of Will against us.
Good point, I think he did have an StP in hand. I definitely should have taken that to protect Pyro. I think I was too quick to get the 2 forces because I saw them both. Protecting pyro, even for a turn, makes more sense. The clock would've been much faster.

wwoning
11-27-2015, 09:50 AM
Round 2- VS Miracles
Sideboard -4 Daze -2 FoW -1 Bolt -2 Probe +3 Cabal +2 Pyroblast +1 Clique + 2 Needle +1 Dread of Night

Whats your reasoning for bringing in Cabal Therapy over FoW on the Draw? If they go T1 Top, doesnt that make your discard as good as useless?

Kamus
11-28-2015, 05:41 AM
Hey, what do you think about Calcanno's list?
I loved that, but I think it's a little risky using just 4 lightning bolts as removal spells in MD
I wish I could add at least a 5th removal.. what would be the best option to take out?
I currently cut the 4th Young Pyromancer to put a forked bolt. I've considered using murderous cut instead, but I'm not sure if it's solid using m. cut + 2 gurmag anglers..

Gotuso
11-28-2015, 05:43 PM
So today I played Legacy for the first time, going with Calcano's Grixis Delver list card for card (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10859&d=262038&f=LE). I have to say it was good fun playing the deck. Everything felt very fragile but the deck has a lot of play to it and it feels like you need to squeeze out a lot of value from every card and make the right decisions for a win. A small report, including some situations I have some questions about:

Round 1
I played against Punishing Jund. Game 1 I went first, opened with Deathrite into a turn 2 Pyromancer followed by Probe seeing Swamp, Liliana, Punishing Fire, Goyf, Hymn, Forest and Abrupt Decay. Probe drew me a Daze which I used to counter the Fire targeting my Shaman next turn. After that I played a second Pyro, made some more tokens and quickly closed out the game.

(Sideboard: -4 FoW, -1 Daze. +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Submerge, +1 Clique.)

Game 2 I Stifled a fetchland which he didn't see coming, he again went after my Shaman and I managed to stick an Angler to his Goyf. At first I was kinda sad that my 2 remaining cards where 2 extra Stifles, but I managed to use them to Stifle 2 Liliana triggers while Angeler went to the face forcing Goyf to chump and eventually go the distance while we both kinda bricked on lands.

Round 2
Versus Sneak and Show. Game 1 I'm not sure what exactly happened, but I think it was a Stifle + Wasteland for some mana denial, a countered Show and Tell and eventually Angler came down to close out the game.

(Sideboard: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Angler, - a mix or Probes/Ponders/Dazes? I think I took out Probes but not sure. +4 Therapy, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Needle, +1 Clique, +2 Pyroblast)

Now game 2 is where I punt pretty hard. I can't remember the full game but at some point I Cabal Therapied him for FoW and whiffed. I wrote down Brainstorm, Show and Tell, Probe, Sneak Attack and Ancient Tomb. I had a Deathrite Shaman going, resolved a Delver that same turn and was holding FoW + blue card. He probes me and casts Blood Moon. I pause and let it resolve. Next turn I attack him with a Delver, cast something (think Ponder, going for a shuffle) and pass the turn. On his turn he casts Sneak Attack. I again think for a bit before letting it resolve. On my turn I attack with flipped Delver, I cast a second Delver and pass. He casts a Brainstorm, I counter it with FoW. On my turn I flip my second Delver, cast a Deathrite Shaman and attack with the 2 Delvers. He uses Sneak Attack to put Griselbrand into play which he drew from on of his 2 draw steps, blocked my Delver and I scooped.
Now first of all, that scoop was a dumb mistake. I didn't remember that you have to sac the creature you put into play with Sneak Attack... As for the other situation, my reasoning for not countering Blood Moon or Sneak Attack was that I knew the rest of his hand. He has 2 enablers but nothing to use it on. So I thought that the most important card was actually the Brainstorm since that could draw him into a Emrakul or Griselbrand. Since I only had 1 counterspell I thought I coulnd't deal with Sneak Attack and Show and Tell, so I gambled that I could deal with Blood Moon, counter the Brainstorm and hopefully finish him of with Delver before he could assemble the combo. Is this line of thinking wrong? Another play which I only realised after the fact was that I could FoW the Sneak Attack and then flashback Therapy for the Show and Tell. But I'm not sure if I already had a second Delver drawn at the point which means I would have had to make that play thinking I needed to sacrifice my only source of mana OR my only source of damage.

Game 3 was kinda brutal. I start with Deathrite, he Ponder with a Petal after a mulligan. On my turn I Therapy him naming Brainstorm (hit), see Sneak Attack, Intuition, Pyroblast and Ancient Tomb remaining. I cast a second Therapy and take the Sneak Attack. He draws and passes. I think I played either a second Deathrite or a Delver, holding FoW + blue card (Probe I think). On his turn he casts Show and Tell with mana for Pyroblast backup and puts Griselbrand into play. Apparently his Ponder saw Tomb, Grisel and S&T. :( I played on this time but had no outs really.

Round 3:
I noted that my opponent had 4 points but I didn't dare to blindly put him on Miracles. He was Miracles. I mulligan a hand of Fetchland, Deathrite, Stifle, 2x Daze, FoW, Ponder. I think. It felt risky because of the 1 land, but my 6 card hand was a Deathrite, Probe, Angler, Bolt and 2 land. Unfortunately I got crushed. I played a Deathrite and passed. Next turn I played my Probe, saw Brainstorm, Fow, Humility, Terminus and Arid Mesa. I played a second Deathrite and at some point we had a fight over Terminus which he put back with Brainstorm. I forced, he forced me back and I used my Deathrites to cast a Brainstorm and Bolt him in the face to set up and Angler. Unfortunately my second Probe revealed a Swords and a Stoneforge. The Swords took care of the Angler and I had no answerer to Batterskull.

(Sideboard: - 2 FoW, -3 Lightning Bolt, -1 Probe. + 1 Needle, +1 Vortex, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Clique, +2 Pyroblast)

Game 2 I can open with Delver but instead I hold because I have Stifle. I tried to play a mana denial game with Stifle and 2x Wasteland but he has too much land and too many basics. I don't remember this game too much but I know I manage to get an Angler and Deathrite to stick, counter big Jace, but get crushed by Stoneforge + Batterskull and Sword of the Meek. I just can't get any damage in and have no awnser once Batterskull resolved. I talked to my opponent after the match, as I did everytime, and he told me that it was probably more correct to board out some Wastelands versus him since the mana denial isn't strong enough and Stifle can trade for better value versus other cards. Not sure if this is correct but I got crushed this matchup.

After this I'm out of a money finish.
Round 4 I play against Burn which I win 2-0 surprisingly. Game 1 he's stuck on 1 land for a while, I stick a Pyromancer with 3 land into play and remember to Stifle his Rift Bolt and Daze his Chain Lightning targeting my Pyromancer. I beat him down and on the turn he draws a second land he can only do 10 damage to bring me down to 1... Game 2 the opposite happens, he draws a lot of land and at some point has 6 land into play to start hardcasting his 3 Fireblasts... Daze trades for value in this game and Deathrite Shaman does some work by gaining 4 life.

Round 5 I play against Slivers. Game 1 I counter his Vial, Wasteland his first land, Wasteland his second land, but he gets a Flanking Sliver and a First Strike Sliver down. Even though I have a Delver, Deathrite and 2 Pyromancers down I don't draw any cantrips and he draws enough land. At some point I draw a bolt, gun down his Mussle Sliver, make 2 extra tokens and attack with everything leaving just 2 fresh tokens to block. My opponent goes from 18 to 7 but has an extra lord + Mutavault on his turn to attack for lethal, my attack was 1 token too reckless :( . Game 2 I again for the mana denial plan with 3 Wastes this time, but he draws plenty of land to counter it. Fortunately I get another Pyromancer down and use it to get some value from my Dazes and Stifles, even forced to counter my own cards just for some tokens. Not sure how but eventually I get him. Game 3 I take it easy with the Wastelands though I do FoW a turn 1 Vial. This is a mistake this time around since he's hurting on mana. This is good because I'm able to flip 2 Delvers and kill him before he draws a Flying Sliver or has 3 mana/3 Vial counters on his second Vial for the Lifelink Sliver.

So in the end I go 3-2, beating Punishing Jund, Burn and Slivers. Losing to Sneak and Show and Miracles. Somehow I have the feeling I managed to beat my tougher matchups but lost to my better matchups. The deck was great, it was fun to play and had a lot of game to it. The one thing I'm unsure about is the Stifles since they felt very hit or miss, the vulnerability to Blood Moon (is this just fear?) and the sideboard. Not just how I boarded, but also that I had no cards to put in versus some decks (burn, slivers), that 4 Therapies felt like 1 too many and that Darkblast felt kinda meh. Don't know where that card would really shine; the mirror and D&T? Next time I feel like adding an Ancient Grudge to the board, just so I'm not dead to a resolved Batterskull. Or is this thinking to scared?

Love to hear some feedback on some of my sideboarding and that key decision in game 2 of round 2 :) .

h2o
11-30-2015, 08:45 AM
Thoughts on Fiery Confluence as a sideboard card? Provides a surprising amount of reach (up to 6 non-targeted damage to your opponent), can kill Thresholded Mongoose armies, etc. Might just be better in my Prowess build since you don't want to deal your own guys too much damage in a more traditional list, but I think it has potential. It's also a sweeper effect that doubles duty as a burn spell and pseudo-Shatterstorm.

I've been looking at this card because MUD is in my meta. Again, it's competing with K-Command.

h2o
11-30-2015, 08:46 AM
Hey, what do you think about Calcanno's list?
I loved that, but I think it's a little risky using just 4 lightning bolts as removal spells in MD
I wish I could add at least a 5th removal.. what would be the best option to take out?
I currently cut the 4th Young Pyromancer to put a forked bolt. I've considered using murderous cut instead, but I'm not sure if it's solid using m. cut + 2 gurmag anglers..

Murderous Cut is indeed the best option.

h2o
11-30-2015, 08:50 AM
So far my best K-Command play:

playing against Burn, he is at 16 and I am at 3. He has no cards in hand. He has an Eidolon in play, I have a flipped Delver and an Angler. I attack with both, he doesn't block, he takes 8. On his draw step I K-Command to kill his Eidolon and make him discard (going down to 1), fortunately he didn't draw an instant, then I swing for 8 again and win.

Delvis
11-30-2015, 10:26 AM
So after winning EE3 and making the finals of GP SeaTac, this deck was the second-most popular archetype on Day 2 at SCG NJ (behind only Miracles). And is apparently not a Deck to Beat.

But that's none of my business. -sips tea-

I don't really care what the mods do, but if you're not prepared to beat Grixis Delver then you're making a mistake.

Jaytron
11-30-2015, 03:05 PM
So after winning EE3 and making the finals of GP SeaTac, this deck was the second-most popular archetype on Day 2 at SCG NJ (behind only Miracles). And is apparently not a Deck to Beat.

But that's none of my business. -sips tea-

I don't really care what the mods do, but if you're not prepared to beat Grixis Delver then you're making a mistake.
DTB hasn't been updated with November numbers yet? I'm sure it'll be back again.

Guys running K-Command, what do your lists look like? I'm thinking of adding a K-Command in my artifact heavy local meta.

h2o
12-01-2015, 12:10 AM
I took Calcano's 60 and cut 1 Probe, 1 Stifle for 1 Spell Pierce, 1 K-Command.

pateuglow
12-07-2015, 07:09 PM
Does anyone have a general sideboard guide for this deck? I'm running Calcano's version, but having some trouble sideboarding as I've been on UR Delver for a while.

h2o
12-07-2015, 11:43 PM
Does anyone have a general sideboard guide for this deck? I'm running Calcano's version, but having some trouble sideboarding as I've been on UR Delver for a while.

Well there's some stuff that carries over from any delver deck (board out your forces against other delver decks, board out dazes on the draw in most matchups).

Therapy is for combo (duh), also good against Blade decks. Not awful against D&T.

idk, everything else is pretty self explanatory in the board.

Against non-graveyard combo (Sneak and Show) you often bring out some Deathrites. Against all spell based combo you take out Bolts.

Against aggro decks you often take out Probes since you don't have Therapy in and they hurt you.

Stifle is your best friend against BUG decks (hurt their manabase, stifle suspended Visions, stifle Cascade trigger). Submerge is another good one.

Vortex and prayers is your best way to beat Miracles and Lands. I've toyed with replacing Vortex with Exquisite Firecraft (hard to keep it alive for multiple turns sometimes).

Draggo
12-08-2015, 04:58 PM
Just won a monthly last weekend with the next list:


12 Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

30 Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dead // Gone
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

18 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

/Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Mana Maze
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Terminate
1 Perish


First round: Death & Taxes (2-1 // 2-0-0)
Opponent wints the roll. I Win game 1, lose game 2 to a batterskull with Sword of Fire and Ice. I WIn game 3 again.
Board (not sure about this one): -2 Probe, -1 Daze on the draw, -1 force on the play. +1 True-Name, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Terminate

Round 2: BUG (2-1 // 2-0-0)
I win the roll and win game 1. Game 2 was close but I pull the short straw after he countered the Perish. Game 3 I submerge his goyf then waste his tropical so he can't play it again. I Dimir Charm to target myself, drop some cards in the graveyard and the second Angler on top to drop it down and beat him down past a True-Name on his end of the table. Starting in any tempo match is really important.
Board: -2 Probe, -4 Daze on the draw -4 FoW on the play. +1 True-Name, +1 Submerge, +1 Perish, +1 Terminate, +1 Needle, +1 Dimir Charm.

Round 3: MUD (2-1 // 3-0-0)
Not sure who started here, I tent to write more sloppy when playing vs friends. I win game one, lose game 2 and win game 3 again. Both game 1 and 3 had quick delvers flying to the face. Game 3 I had a quick Null Rod who delayed his play he was about to make with a couple of Grim Monolith's giving me time to beat him down before the big guys got on board.
Board: -2 probe on the play -2 Daze on the draw, -4 Stifle. +1 Null Rod, +1 Terminate, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 True-Name.

Round 4: Miracles (ID // 3-0-1)
We decide to ID becouse there were only 3 people who went 3-0-0 and it was a 5 round tournament.
We play one for fun what was a really weird game. I end up keeping Stifle open so he won't fetch his land and we both play almost nothing for 4 turns. I end up beating him down with a Clique and countering/stifling everything.

Round 5: Nic-Fit (ID // 3-0-2)
Again ID to get clear cut to top 8.
We also play a game for fun and I beat him down with a quick Delver and Shaman.

Top 8: Infect (2-0 // 4-0-2)
I win the roll and rush him down quick. Game 2 I manage to burn and waste his infect creatures. Ended up on 6 infect counters becouse of double exalted triggers on the field before I take him down.
Board: -2 probe, -4 Force. +1 True-Name, +1 Submerge, +1 Perish, +1 Dimir Charm, +2 Decay.
I made the mistake nog getting any Pyroblast from the board to counter/kill the Blighted Agent. Also Mana Maze ould have worked to counter the multiple pump spells in a row.

Top 4: Burn (2-1 // 5-0-2)
Win the roll but I can't manage to control game one. Wastelands and Stifles are a bit awkward in this match. Game 2 I stabalize, sort of, and end up on 3 life before I beat him down. Game 3 I get a better grip and end up on 10 life before beating him down with Delver and finishing with a Bolt to the face.
Board: -2 Probe, -4 Stifle, -2 Wasteland. +1 True-Name, +1Ancient Grudge (in case there are Ensnaring Bridge's from the board), +1 Mana Maze, +1 Dimir Charm, +2 Decay, +1 Terminate, +1 Needle.

Final: Burn (2-1 // 6-0-2)
I win the roll but I lose game 1 again. Game 2 I get good control on the board and end up on 14 life while beating with Delver and Angler. Game 3 I ended on 5 life before hitting the final blow with Angler.
Board: -2 Probe, -4 Stifle, -2 Wasteland. +1 True-Name, +1Ancient Grudge (I know he plays Ensnaring Bridge's), +1 Mana Maze, +1 Dimir Charm, +2 Decay, +1 Terminate, +1 Needle.



Been a while since I went 3-0 at the monthly, so that was fun.
Changes I'm going to make:
Main deck:
-1 Dead//Gone (it's ok, but I want to try something else)
+1 Forked Bolt (or Fire//Ice)
I really like instant removal for 1 mana, hence the Dead//Gone. But alot of lists use Forked Bolt or Dismember at this spot. I don't like Dismember in Grixis becouse I feel you have better alternatives.


Sideboard:
-1 Perish (really good, but I don't like 3 mana and hitting my own creatures)
+1 Submerge (good to have multipes of this on the board)

If I get my hands on a Flusterstorm I proberly put this in the board instead of the Mana Maze, although the Maze is really good vs Elves/Burn/Omnitell apart from being really annoying for storm/combo decks.


Does anyone have a general sideboard guide for this deck? I'm running Calcano's version, but having some trouble sideboarding as I've been on UR Delver for a while.

I'm not sure what list this is. But generally you just add counter/discard against anything combo or control. Add more creature removal and creatures vs any aggro decks.
The general idea is to identify the cards that are adding the least value to the match-up and swap them for anything that adds more value.
I'm also a fan of taking out card disadvantage when you can help it. Like removing Force of Will when you don't have anything on the other side of the table that you really need to counter. Mostly this means when you are on the play, you take them out vs tempo/aggro decks. Daze is also a set-back since you lose a land drop. It's also less effective on the draw becouse your opponent already has a land drop more then you, hence more mana to play for Daze. So you can take out Daze on the draw vs aggro/tempo decks. But ONLY do this when you have better substitudes in the sideboard.
If you play Stifle you sometimes can keep the Daze even on the draw vs decks like BUG, becouse they need to get to 3 or 4 mana to be effective. Daze and Stifle help to hinder that plan.

Jaytron
12-08-2015, 05:13 PM
Did you feel "threat light" with the lack of Young p? Do you miss Cabal at all?

Draggo
12-08-2015, 05:30 PM
Did you feel "threat light" with the lack of Young p? Do you miss Cabal at all?

I don't feel light thread at all becouse the Anglers are a real beating. To be honest, I feel like I can add more value cards to the deck by dropping the Pyromancers. I can play counters on the slots of the 3rd and 4th Probe. There is also less value loss when you board out Probes for other cards.

I do miss the therapy wrecking vs combo decks though. Turn 1 shaman into turn 2 Pyromancer/Probe/Therapy is all you need to win a game vs combo most of the time. Spell Pierce and/or Spell Snare do the trick too most of the time, although it's less effective then the therapy combo. This is why I play with Mana Maze at the moment.

h2o
12-08-2015, 09:33 PM
why not just play goyfs if you're not going to play pyromancer+therapy... pyromancer is the reason to play this deck.

Delvis
12-09-2015, 09:31 AM
why not just play goyfs if you're not going to play pyromancer+therapy... pyromancer is the reason to play this deck.

Well, first I will state again for the record that Draggo is playing in a European meta that most of us don't really know. Based on his report, it doesn't seem like anything really wacky is there, but I'm sure the percentages of meta representation are quite different... he did play Burn twice in the Top 4.

It's probable that he wants Angler instead due to the higher count of black sources in his deck as well as its immunity to Abrupt Decay, Counterbalance, and its resistance to graveyard exile effects once it's on the table. He also had a Perish in the sideboard and that doesn't line up well with playing Goyfs of your own, although it also kills his Deathrites which is why he's planning on removing it. Speaking of, Goyf and Deathrite are kind of awkward together.

Not saying it's necessarily the correct call, but there are reasons for not playing Goyf. However, your point about Pyromancer+Therapy being the point of the deck is valid. I've been decreasing my counts recently, but it's the primary thing we get to do that the other Delver builds don't -- the others being Bolt and DRS side-by-side, and the Delve dorks over Tarmogoyf (which I prefer anyway due to Angler's Decay and Counterbalance resistance).

@Draggo, 'grats on the finish! I think Mana Maze is definitely over-sideboarding for Infect. Their pump spells tend to be +4/+4, and they are comfortable landing one pump per turn on a 1/1 to kill you. It only sort of slows them down and doesn't nearly do enough to actually stop their plan. Plus they could just chain a Brainstorm in-between green spells to turn on a double-pump turn. Overall, the impact on their strategy is minimal and is too easily overcome.

h2o
12-12-2015, 10:49 AM
Delver Rising http://thegraymerchants.com/?p=1287

Echelon
12-14-2015, 01:15 AM
@Draggo: The only reason you faced burn twice in the top 8 was b/c I dropped the semis to be home in time for pizza :tongue:.

@others: I'm the Nic Fit player he mentions. Please do note we played quite some games at my place the day after and he got forcefed quite some rhino-power :laugh::tongue:. We've got another tournament coming up next saturday and this time I won't be dropping for pizza :laugh:.

Delvis
12-14-2015, 10:02 AM
Delver Rising http://thegraymerchants.com/?p=1287

On top of that overall meta breakdown, here's the Top 16 from the Legacy Classic at the SCG Invi: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=12/13/2015&end_date=12/13/2015&event_ID=36&city=las+vegas&limit=100

Grixis Delver took it down, with another copy in the Top 8. The only other deck that had multiple copies in the Top 8 was ANT, and in fact no deck had more than 2 copies in the Top 16.

Grixis Delver is everywhere and the only people not aware are the mods of The Source. I'd set the over/under at 3 copies in the Players' Championship next week.

More interestingly than petty forum squabbles, it seems we've settled on a maindeck 60 for this deck in the North American meta. Both decks in the Top 8 had stock maindecks and were mostly identical, with the only exception being they used different fetchland counts. It seems condensed and focused, and I don't see any particular reason to deviate from this list at this time. The only thing I would want is at least one basic land to avoid getting blown out by Blood Moon and/or Wasteland, but it doesn't seem like that's actually all that necessary. I'm going to copy the winning list here and take it to the local mid-major tournament this weekend, because I think his sideboard is better for my meta.

h2o
12-14-2015, 06:32 PM
I sort of see it as a core 58 with the 4th Stifle and 4th Probe as flex slots. In a large tournament I'm fine playing that 60, but in smaller local metas I tend to put in some tech.

h2o
12-14-2015, 06:34 PM
I don't think playing a basic is correct, because this deck is so color-intensive as is. Between Deathrite and Pyromancer we can still win through a Blood Moon and I've done it before. If you're playing against a Moon deck and you're going to play Deathrite, make sure you have some way to get lands in the yard so you can cast some spells.

Delvis
12-15-2015, 08:40 AM
I don't think playing a basic is correct, because this deck is so color-intensive as is. Between Deathrite and Pyromancer we can still win through a Blood Moon and I've done it before. If you're playing against a Moon deck and you're going to play Deathrite, make sure you have some way to get lands in the yard so you can cast some spells.

Yeah, this is where I am currently at. You cede some percentage of games against Wasteland due to your entire mana base being vulnerable to it, but it's about an equivalent amount to how many you cede to color screw by playing a basic.

I played four rounds last night at a small local event, went 2-2 but my fourth round opponent reported it as a win for me since he was ineligible for prizes. Good dude.

Got paired down twice in a row to two different turn 1 Chalice decks (Aggro Loam and a terrible Magistrate's Scepter brew who had a match mis-reported and was supposed to be 0-3) and just got wrecked. I think I may have just made poor mulligan/sideboarding decisions due to inexperience against these types of decks, so in the future I'll be mulliganing more aggressively, but 2 of the 4 games I lost to it were because they had multiple copies to push through my counters. I'd like to put an Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. How do you guys sideboard for t1 Chalice decks?

Star|Scream
12-15-2015, 08:57 AM
New to the deck, can anyone please provide some tips for beating lands?

Delvis
12-15-2015, 10:19 AM
New to the deck, can anyone please provide some tips for beating lands?

Your only way to beat them is with an aggressive draw. You will not be able to outgrind them, barring a low-percentage Gamble whiff or something. There are some draws from them that you will not be able to beat, so if you're debating a 6-card keep because it's cold to Tabernacle or Punishing Fire, you may have to just keep and pray they don't have it.

Wasteland and DRS are the best cards in your deck, being the primary method you have of interacting with what they are trying to do.

Surgical Extraction out of the sideboard is a potential gamebreaker, but you have to pick your targets carefully because odds are that's the only one you're drawing.

Pithing Needle is very good but you have to be careful with this as well. I lost a win-and-in to prizes because my opponent responded to Needle by copying a Forest with his Stage, and then like an idiot I named Stage anyway and he promptly combo'd me on the next turn (Stage copies the name, too).

Keep up a Wasteland if you can, unless they are showing a mana screw hand (which is unlikely). They can drop a Tabernacle at instant speed and will commit hard to tutoring for it when you go wide, and you need to be able to answer it. Keeping up a Wasteland also makes them play around it to set up the Marit Lage combo. Being a tempo deck, this can go a long way to winning the match.

Counter any Exploration/Manabond effects!! You probably have to let Mox Diamond resolve; it sucks, but countering it just never works out. However, a resolved Exploration makes it virtually impossible for you to win. Countering Crop Rotation is also anywhere from fine to very good. Countering Gamble is reasonable if they're low on cards in hand or don't have a Loam, because you can be assured that's what they're getting (that, or something even worse for you).

Stifle is fine, but be very careful: you can't really Stifle the Dark Depths trigger. It will be countered, and then it will trigger again. You have to Stifle the Stage activation, which means it's just a delay tactic and not a blowout. You can Stifle the buyback trigger for Punishing Fire, which can be enough to push through lethal.
Also, don't Stifle the Mox Diamond discard trigger. I've seen a Delver player do this. It's not Chrome Mox; it can still tap for mana. You just saved them from the drawback of pitching a land.

Some people board out Bolts against Lands but I think this is 100% wrong. You need to be aggressive and burn them out, and there's no way you're doing that without Bolts.

Daze is bad because it gets blanked by Mox and is basically useless past turn 1 or so. But Force isn't much better. You really kind of have to pick your poison here because you need counterspells for their gamebreakers but all your counters are subpar. I opt for Force here for the most part because it doesn't get blanked by a Mox, but YMMV.

Therapy is pretty bad but not dead. If you're on the play, it can help protect you from the really dangerous stuff like Exploration or Chalice. Just be aware that past turn 2 that card is basically blank. I never bring them in.

EDIT: I completely forgot Submerge and Sulfuric Vortex. You bring those in, obvi. Submerge hits Marit Lage and is a huge play, but keep in mind you need an island to play it. Vortex is very good because it's difficult for them to answer and it shuts off Punishing Fire.

TL;DR mulligan to an aggressive draw, counter Explorations, bring in Extractions, hope for variance.

Delvis
12-16-2015, 09:31 AM
Sorry for posting another essay but I played in another local last night. Still jamming the winning list from Sunday's SCG Classic, no changes.

I went 2-0-1, splitting prizes in the third round with a good friend. We played it out for fun and he crushed me 2-0 with Elves because I drew a little poorly and made several play mistakes. I was not really focused on this match as there was nothing on the line and I hadn't seen my friend in months (he was studying abroad, and it was his first day back), but that's no excuse. It felt like this matchup was not very good, but that may have been partially due to my failure to draw Force of Will, Wasteland, or Lightning Bolt in any significant quantities.

Round 2, I beat Maverick. He had a triple Mom draw in game one but I had a double Bolt draw, and eventually was able to just ignore the last one with some flipped Delvers. Game 2 he gets me with an early Knight. Game 3 I draw the nut high Pyromancer draw, with double Pyromancer, double Bolt, Deathrite to accelerate out a turn 2 Pyro-Bolt sequence, Brainstorms for cantripping, and Dazes to stop Swords. There may have been a Stifled fetch somewhere. I wind up attacking him with something like 9 tokens on like turn 5 into his board of Mom, DRS, and BoP. Filthy.

Round 1, I beat Aluren. I think it was the same 75 from the GP SeaTac Top 8 list. The guy was brand new to the deck and wasn't even sure how the combo worked (long story), but he sussed it out. I won game 1, he won game 2, and I cleaned it up in game 3. I misplayed game 2 and gave him the win. I'll break it out:

We both have three mana available. I pass, then in his draw step I Clique him. I see Toxic Deluge, Imperial Recruiter, Aluren. My board is now DRS + Clique, the rest of my hand is basically blank (Sulfuric Vortex + another DRS, so no counters).

If I take Deluge, he can combo me out if he draws a land off Clique.
If I take Recruiter, he can Deluge for just 2 and clear my table.
If I take Aluren, he can still Deluge and probably will, and has a castable Recruiter back to grab a value creature.
If I take nothing, he will Deluge, and any land off the top is live for combo-killing me.

I tanked for a while and took the Deluge. I was immediately punished, as he drew a land and killed me.

Taking Aluren is definitely wrong as it gives him two castable cards in hand, one that he immediately plays to sweep my team, and the second that he follows up with to grab a Baleful Strix or DRS or something.

Taking nothing is also wrong, as he can Deluge to wipe my team, and then next turn any land is live to instantly kill me. Since I don't have a blue card in hand, I'd have to draw exactly Daze to stop the combo. A cantrip to dig for it would work, too, in theory. But it's a low percentage. The only way I take this line is if I'm trying to bluff Daze and/or Force, because taking nothing just seems so wrong on the face of it that it might make him think I must be counting on a counterspell. I'm not a good enough poker player for this line. Yet.

So, thinking back, I would 100% take the Recruiter in the future. I just have to accept the loss of my creatures to Deluge, or hope he puts me on Daze and holds it back. Taking the Recruiter means he has to draw a land to cast Aluren, and even if he does, he needs to draw another Recruiter to actually combo me out. I have another DRS in hand and I can cast Vortex with it if I draw a fetch or Volc (I had 2 Seas), so that is a reasonable clock and gives me a way to get ahead in the Vortex race, along with hampering the combo.

Thoughts on that scenario?

Also, taking a step back, was it correct to Clique in the draw step? I still think it was the correct play, and he just had a basically Clique-proof hand. Almost any other configuration of 3 cards in his whole deck is preferable to that situation.

Draggo
12-16-2015, 05:33 PM
@Echelon proberly true, I think you would have beaten the burn deck. But hey, you got pizza :cool:

@Beating lands:
Like Devis said, counter really aggressive on their mana ramp. Don't counter the mox, unless you know it's only one in their deck.
Watch out with Daze if you end up without lands becouse you take one back/waste something else or something like this.. They might Crop Rotate to Tabernacle and kill any creature you have on the field.
Don't board Therapy if you are on the draw. It's really terrible becouse they have only a few targets you want to hit. I proberly won't take it when you are on the play either for the same reason. Lands dumps their hand and hits for topdecks/loam. You can't discard any of that.
Rather get anything that kills artifacts (becouse of Chalice) or slows/stops Tespian Stage and Maze of Ith (try TNN and Submerge if you have it on the board).
Stifle will only slow lands down for a turn. You can use it to hit trough Maze of counter a draw from cycling land so they can't get Loam back that draw.
I find myzelf also countering Loam sometimes if I feel I slow down the curve of their deck for a bit, or use Deathrite to remove it right after that.
You can not win the grind game vs. Lands. So get quick Delvers en Shaman activations to close out the game.
Don't board out the Lightning Bolts. You will need them to close down the game.

@Delvis
I think the Clique was the right call to cast. Like you said, next time take the Recruiter.
If he draws the land to play Aluren, you can also dump creature on your side of the field right after. He proberly won't cast Aluren without winning right after becouse of this, and he needs a recruiter for that.
Losing 2 creature is always bettter then giving them a shot on winning the game instantly, especially since you had no counters at hand.

Delvis
12-19-2015, 04:26 AM
Played in my third small local tonight. Went 3-0-1 and made another $20 in store credit. This deck is cranking.

I switched the sideboard around a little bit:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Darkblast
1 Fire Covenant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle

I also swapped 1 Gitaxian Probe in the maindeck for 1 Spell Pierce, which came up in like half my games for some reason but was always solid-to-great.

Round 1 was Grixis Painter. This round went to time, as I killed him quickly in game 1 and he took forever to kill me in game 2, so we didn't have enough time to finish game 3. I won game 1 mostly off of mana denial, Wasting a Volc or two and Stifling a fetch.

Round 2 was Shardless BUG. This is a pretty reasonable matchup for me, but unfortunately he was able to grind me out in game 2. Since it was a smaller local and less was on the line, I wanted to see if I could draw out of the lock he had me under, but my draws were poor. At a higher level event, I would have quickly scooped after he stabilized and moved on to a game 3 that I would start on the play.

Speaking of game 3, we have to rush to finish, and by the time turn 5 rolls around, he's in a dominating board position. There's no question he would have beaten me, however, since he lost round 1, I ask him cordially if he would consider scooping to me since I'm more alive for prizes (flat 4-round tourney with prizes based on standings), and a draw really puts a damper on both of our chances at prizes. He eventually scoops to me, so if you're reading this, you're an awesome guy.

I move on to round 3 against my good friend Paul Lynch playing Infect. This was a feature match, and you can watch it here if you'd like: http://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/30670925?t=01h57m32s

I make a few play mistakes and Paul went over them with me. My sideboarding was wrong, and he explains to me why it was. Basically, I should have left the Therapies in the side, boarded out 1 Daze (going down to 3) and leaving in the Force of Wills. Especially since I was on the draw.

My line of thinking was that I wanted the Therapies, but bringing them in meant cutting too many blue cards and the Forces would be too difficult to cast. Looking back, I was wrong. The Therapies aren't even that good, and Force is mostly just better for fighting over lethal pump spells. If I leave the Therapies in the board, there should be enough blue to support the Forces.

Fortunately, none of this punished me, as I cleaned him up pretty quickly in two fast games after losing the die roll.

One specific misplay that I'm coming back to is in game 2, when I fight over my Pyroblast on his Agent, lose the fight, then untap and immediately Bolt the Agent. I was still in the mindset of, 'I'm protected by this Daze in my hand,' when in reality I had just cast it. As a result, I'm immediately punished as he's able to fetch for a Savannah and cast STP on my Delver with the world's saddest Spell Pierce sitting in my hand. Again, fortunately, I drew out of it, immediately picking up another land and a Deathrite, but I feel like the correct play would have been to wait on a pump spell to Bolt the Agent, since I'm not in any immediate danger of dying to poison counters and have both counterspell and removal protection with that untapped mana available.

The other misplay was Forcing his Probe. There's no real reason to do this. I was basically thinking, I have so many resources to counter his Berserks, I can afford to try to get him to play into my counters and removal. But countering the Probe tipped him off that I had a wall of counterspells and/or removal, so he held back on the Berserks and tried to use them as removal. Realistically, there's nothing Infect can draw there that poses any threat to my triple Force hand.

Anyway, after 2-0'ing Paul, I move on to round 4 against ANT. He kills me game 1 on his last turn (don't they always?) with a little help from Lady Luck. A little tilted and upset that I'm about to miss prizes because of Storm (I hate losing to Storm), I board in my hate suite and settle in.

Game 2, I'm on the play, and my 7-card has 3 counterspells and a Wasteland, but no threat. Knowing that without pressure, the Storm deck will simply sit back and sculpt its hand to perfection, I mulligan to 6. No land there. Mulligan to 5, see Deathrite, two lands (both fetches IIRC) and a Ponder and Bolt. Not the best hand against Storm (in fact, it's a pretty bad one), but I keep it as it's very unlikely I'm going to get anything remotely playable out of a mull to 4. Either way, I wind up putting enough pressure on him that he is forced into going off before he's ready, casts Ad Nauseam at 10, flips three cantrips, a Past in Flames, and an Empty the Warrens, and dies.

Welp.

Game 3, I'm on the draw, but my 7 is LITERALLY perfect. Delver, fetch, Waste, Force, Spell Pierce, Daze, Brainstorm. You cannot draw up a much better hand against Storm. Predictably, he is completely incapable of playing through my immense counterspell wall, and even though he manages to Abrupt Decay my Delver, I draw a Young Pyromancer in short order and keep the clock on. On his final turn, I have two Pyromancers in play and way more than lethal on the table. My hand is Force, Ponder, Daze. He casts Ad Nauseam at 4 life, leaving up a Volc. He told me afterwards he was on the Empty plan, but his only out was that I pitch Daze to Force. I'm not sure how it all worked out, but I Daze the Ad Nauseam to tap down his Volc, then Force it to actually kill it. He scoops.

This deck is unreal. It's smooth, consistent, and draws very well, allowing you to play a multitude of different roles.

Also, it may have just been the metagame for the night, but I definitely feel like I want 1 more Spell Pierce in the maindeck. That card was my MVP on the night, showing up in over half my matches and providing a very strong shield every time it did.

Delvis
12-21-2015, 01:40 PM
Just a follow-up to my last post. I almost crushed the mid-major local yesterday. I opened up 3-0, then finished 0-3 drop. I was still alive for a money finish at 3-3, but I didn't want to have to deal with the psychological pain of losing a fourth consecutive round.

I got on camera again, same channel as last time (SnapCasters). The stream went down a few times during my match, so it's broken up into three different videos on that channel. I also sat down for a post-game interview. It was round 3, my final round of success, and as it happens I 2-0'd Dave Long playing R/G Lands (with a huge assist from Lady Luck to overcome some sloppy play from me). That makes me 2-0 in camera matches, 4-0 in camera match games.

My first two rounds were against Storm and I drew a perfect balance of clock and disruption in 3 of the games. The other game I won was against TES and he killed himself after I got one turn.

After Dave Long, I played Rob Long on Miracles and misplayed multiple times to drop the match 1-2. Then I played against Bobby Birmingham on RUG Delver and we reached parity on the board in game 3, except he had a Sylvan Library. Then I played against Grixis Painter and lost twice to perfect draws from my opponent (like he literally was hellbent both games when he killed me, and needed every card).

I think that's it for me for Legacy this year. It's going to take some time to come back from that tilt.

Ltj999
12-23-2015, 09:18 AM
A friend of mine is trying out 2 Md pierce and 3 sb bob, which seem pretty solid. He cut the 4th probe and stifle for the pierces. I'm still new to the deck so I'm gunna sick with a stock list for a little while so I can get a feel for the deck before making any changes. Thoughts on his build? The bobs seem super strong vs miracles.

Delvis
12-23-2015, 11:05 AM
A friend of mine is trying out 2 Md pierce and 3 sb bob, which seem pretty solid. He cut the 4th probe and stifle for the pierces. I'm still new to the deck so I'm gunna sick with a stock list for a little while so I can get a feel for the deck before making any changes. Thoughts on his build? The bobs seem super strong vs miracles.

Spell Pierce is feeling more and more correct for me in the main deck. I don't like cutting a Stifle for one, as it plays incredibly well with your mana denial package. I'm not sure what else you would cut though. If not Stifle, I think you're looking at Ponder, because Brainstorm, Daze, and Force are too good, and there's no sense in cutting a threat.

Bob does seem sweet against Miracles. How did your friend make room in the sideboard? Did s/he take out Therapies? I've wanted to try Bob for a little while but I don't know where to make room.

Draggo
12-23-2015, 04:46 PM
Delvis, can you post the list you are currently using?

So far I don't feel like the need to swap my 3 Angler/1 Clique build. But if I would go back to using actual Pyromancers I proberly would use something like this:

Land: 18
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer

Spells: 29
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt



Sideboard 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dimir Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Terminate
3 Cabal Therapy

Either Spell Pierce or Spell Snare should be fine in the main board, depending on your own preference and what you think to face in the meta. I would prefer Snare in this build becouse you have the ability to hard counter most problematic cards like Goyf/Chalice@1/SFM to the opposite of countering the Bolts/Liliana/Top that are in general less effective to the deck anyway. (just calling a few cards, we all know there are a ton of cards to counter with either spell and that some of these can be countered by both)

Delvis
12-24-2015, 10:33 AM
@Draggo, sure thing.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

I'm switching Tarns to Strands unless I start playing basic Mountains. This is because it doesn't matter what fetches you use, as long as they are blue fetches.

The reason for the change is that Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta both represent a much wider variety of decks than Tarn and Misty do. This is normally a miniscule advantage, but there will be games when you lead with Flooded Strand and your opponent assumes Miracles/Stoneblade and cracks their fetch straight into your Stifle. The opportunity cost for this is zero, so that equates to free game wins. To be honest, I'm becoming well known around here for playing Grixis Delver (two camera matches in one weekend will do that), so it may never come up. But it might one day.

The Prowess build did me well for a while, but now that the metagame has settled, Pyromancer is proving himself to be a fine choice again.

Sideboard is currently constructed as such:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
1 Fire Covenant
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Not much to say. Seems to be right about where I want to be.

Ltj999
12-28-2015, 06:33 PM
@Draggo, sure thing.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

I'm switching Tarns to Strands unless I start playing basic Mountains. This is because it doesn't matter what fetches you use, as long as they are blue fetches.

The reason for the change is that Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta both represent a much wider variety of decks than Tarn and Misty do. This is normally a miniscule advantage, but there will be games when you lead with Flooded Strand and your opponent assumes Miracles/Stoneblade and cracks their fetch straight into your Stifle. The opportunity cost for this is zero, so that equates to free game wins. To be honest, I'm becoming well known around here for playing Grixis Delver (two camera matches in one weekend will do that), so it may never come up. But it might one day.

The Prowess build did me well for a while, but now that the metagame has settled, Pyromancer is proving himself to be a fine choice again.

Sideboard is currently constructed as such:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
1 Fire Covenant
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Not much to say. Seems to be right about where I want to be.

I'm on the exact same main and I love it.

SB is slightly different with 4 cabal therapy 2 submerge, 2 decay, and 1 cage as the differences. Deck has been super solid lately and really have enjoyed playing it. If anything at times I feel like the deck gets suck on lands where I've gone through multiple cantrips to find nothing.

Draggo
12-28-2015, 07:53 PM
That list is so close to the first Grixis list I played with alot of succes back in halfway 2014 :laugh: (finally had a set of FoW's complete at that moment)!
Needles to say, there were no Anglers back then. The new lists are alot smoother.

About the fetch lands: Guess you can get some random blue fetch lands instead of the 4 Delta 4 Tarn since you don't run the Badlands like I do. Won't have much effect when you get around people that know what you play though. Also the last time someone tried to deny my fetch lands with a Needle (and failed to be honest) was about 2 years ago. Naming the Delta while I had Mire's that fixed everything.


The old list I started with:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
1 Dimir Charm
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Badlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Stifle
// sideboard
1 Shattering Spree
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Mizzium Skin
4 Cabal Therapy

Delvis
12-29-2015, 10:16 AM
Yeah, if you run a Trop and a Badlands, you don't have much choice with what fetches you can run. If you just run Trop like me, you can use any blue fetches. If you just run Badlands, you can use Delta and Mire, both of which still hide the Stifle. Tarn and Misty are the two biggest indicators of Stifle; Delta is used in a huge variety of decks, and Mire does not represent blue at all.

I'm tempted to try out Chandra, Pyromaster against Miracles, as it seems next to impossible for them to answer and represents solid card advantage and a clock. She's relatively easy to push through a Countertop lock and can be cast through Blood Moon. She even protects herself against attacks as her +1 kills their entire suite of creatures (except Mentor). I suppose Clique+Karakas is a problem. The draw she gives you doesn't line up well with counterspells, but I think you take some number of those out against them anyway as they're very likely to play around Daze and Stifle.

I'm playing a small local tonight, so I may proxy a couple into my sideboard to try to improve the likelihood of drawing her. She may be terrible but I'll let the testing bear that out.

Does anybody have any sweet strategic plans for Miracles that they'd like to share? I realized today that I haven't played the matchup nearly enough and I don't feel confident in what I'm doing against them.

Draggo
12-29-2015, 01:27 PM
Yeah, if you run a Trop and a Badlands, you don't have much choice with what fetches you can run. If you just run Trop like me, you can use any blue fetches. If you just run Badlands, you can use Delta and Mire, both of which still hide the Stifle. Tarn and Misty are the two biggest indicators of Stifle; Delta is used in a huge variety of decks, and Mire does not represent blue at all.

I'm tempted to try out Chandra, Pyromaster against Miracles, as it seems next to impossible for them to answer and represents solid card advantage and a clock. She's relatively easy to push through a Countertop lock and can be cast through Blood Moon. She even protects herself against attacks as her +1 kills their entire suite of creatures (except Mentor). I suppose Clique+Karakas is a problem. The draw she gives you doesn't line up well with counterspells, but I think you take some number of those out against them anyway as they're very likely to play around Daze and Stifle.

I'm playing a small local tonight, so I may proxy a couple into my sideboard to try to improve the likelihood of drawing her. She may be terrible but I'll let the testing bear that out.

Does anybody have any sweet strategic plans for Miracles that they'd like to share? I realized today that I haven't played the matchup nearly enough and I don't feel confident in what I'm doing against them.

Never ever board counters away from miracles, ever. You want to counter the Counterbalance/Mentor/Terminus.
Just keep the Stifles to counter the Miracle triggers too. You'll need it. Also hating on their manabase is a solid strategy in defeating them.
I just board Needle for top, Pyroblast for counterwars and Counterbalance, Dimir Charm for the sweepers and add the two Decays I run in the board to kill anything remotely annoying (basicly any permanent they play).
it's dabateble to take out the bolts in this matchup, becouse it can give you the reach you need. On the other hand if you can take over control, there is no need for the reach. If top/counterbalance hits, you won't be able to bolt anyway.

I don't see why you would want to have Chandra in a tempo deck, apart from the one damage per turn to the face. Might be better off just to get in Sulfuric Vortex since you are the aggressor in this match.

Star|Scream
12-29-2015, 01:45 PM
Yes, sulfuric vortex is great, and not commiting more than 1 or 2 threats at a time. So if you have YP and SV out you force them to find a terminus or multiple STP's PLUS council's judgmen.

h2o
01-01-2016, 09:30 AM
Don't run Badlands. We often have to operate on one land, and you don't want to turn off your Dazes or be unable to cast Delver.

Draggo
01-01-2016, 10:49 AM
Don't run Badlands. We often have to operate on one land, and you don't want to turn off your Dazes or be unable to cast Delver.

I have to disagree here. I've been playing the single badlands for ages, and close to never put me off blue mana sources. Becouse of the Badlands you have less change the opponent can just Wasteland your red or black mana away. Just fetch it as the third land and you basicly always have the acces to 3 different colors.

h2o
01-01-2016, 12:19 PM
"fetch it as the third land"

that's a lot of lands you're fetching there bud.

you have to have islands available at all times for daze or to threaten daze.

what if your opener is badlands-fetch-deathrite-daze-brainstorm? if you lead off with the badlands, you can't daze or activate deathrite. if you lead off with the fetch, you can't brainstorm properly.

badlands increases, rather than decreases, the number of games where you lose to your mana base.

Draggo
01-01-2016, 08:42 PM
"fetch it as the third land"

that's a lot of lands you're fetching there bud.

you have to have islands available at all times for daze or to threaten daze.

what if your opener is badlands-fetch-deathrite-daze-brainstorm? if you lead off with the badlands, you can't daze or activate deathrite. if you lead off with the fetch, you can't brainstorm properly.

badlands increases, rather than decreases, the number of games where you lose to your mana base.


With fetching it as a third land I thought it was obvious you don't grab it ASAP. First land to get for me is Sea then Volcanic for 90% of the games. Either the sea or Volcanic into the Badlands is not all bad either. You always have the Shaman activation and Bolt mana open. Some games after boarding you can lead with Trop into Badlands and have all threads open including Decay, Bolt, Daze, Pierce and Stifle.

Having Sea, Volcanic and Badlands in play makes it close to impossible to Wasteland a single manasource. If you have one or 2 Sea/Volcanic and a single one of the other, you have a high chanse that your land will be destroyed and you miss either black or red mana.

In the example you give, I would go for fetch > Sea > Deathrite. Second turn will be either lead with Brainstorm, or Badlands depending on the draw and if you used Daze, etc. The fetch in the yard will give more mana for Deathrite so it's no bad to start with it. You can argue that you miss a possible brainstorm shuffle, but it's all hyphotectical.

All I'm saying is that I tested the badlands for a long time, and I think it's better to have it instead of the third Volcanic. You'll find yourself in situations that you want the third black land more ofthen then the time you have an awkward Daze starting hand.

h2o
01-01-2016, 09:31 PM
obviously I'm not going to convince you. everyone else: please don't play Badlands.

Delvis
01-03-2016, 09:44 AM
I tried out True-Name again in place of Anglers on Friday. He seems incredibly good for this meta. I won games that I wouldn't have won without him. Wound up 3-1 with some luck and misplays from opponents, and somehow I squeezed out a 2-0 win against Aggro Loam (naturally this was after I told him how miserable the matchup was for me). Other matchups I won were 4c Deathblade and Grixis Painter. The match I lost was Nic Fit, on camera no less.

I also swapped Bobs in for my Therapies. Tough to say whether it was a good call or not, since I only drew Bob once all night and didn't play against Miracles. However, the one time I drew him was in a 6-card opener with no other threats and the hand wouldn't have been keepable with Therapy instead.

VERTUK
01-03-2016, 06:43 PM
Has anyone tried Krosan Grip in the sb? Abrupt decay seems a lot better but sometimes it's very hard to get the GB cost.

Delvis
01-04-2016, 09:06 AM
That seems reasonable, VERTUK. Decay seems especially clunky with Vortex. Making BG AND 1RR with all blue duals is not an easy task, and you want both cards in the Miracles matchup, where they will probably place a high priority on taking your Deathrites off the table (which makes it even harder to cast). I don't currently play Decay in my sideboard, partly because of how awkward the mana cost is for the deck to produce.

Grip isn't quite the guarantee against Miracles that Decay is, but they're not likely to be floating a 3 on top. Decay is a little more versatile, being terrific (when castable) in Delver matchups as well, but that cost may be worth paying. It seems reasonable enough to try, at least. Let us know if it works for you.

Draggo
01-04-2016, 10:19 AM
You know what fixes that problem of the awkward BG and 1RR costs? A Badlands :wink:.

Anyway.

Tried Grip, didn't like it becouse of the 3 mana cost and it it had been randomly countered a few times by counterbalance, the main reason you want this card over something like Ancient Grudge.
I think you'll be better off running the Grudge. It destroys decks like MUD and I don't think that there are alot of enchantments you are trying to hit at this moment anyway.

Ltj999
01-04-2016, 12:17 PM
I tried out True-Name again in place of Anglers on Friday. He seems incredibly good for this meta. I won games that I wouldn't have won without him. Wound up 3-1 with some luck and misplays from opponents, and somehow I squeezed out a 2-0 win against Aggro Loam (naturally this was after I told him how miserable the matchup was for me). Other matchups I won were 4c Deathblade and Grixis Painter. The match I lost was Nic Fit, on camera no less.

I also swapped Bobs in for my Therapies. Tough to say whether it was a good call or not, since I only drew Bob once all night and didn't play against Miracles. However, the one time I drew him was in a 6-card opener with no other threats and the hand wouldn't have been keepable with Therapy instead.

Any more insights on the bobs? Did you swap out all the therapies? I feel like totally cutting therapy from the 75 takes away one of our strongest tools, but I also really want bob as well!