[Deck] Angel Stax 2.0 [Archive]

fearphage

01-10-2006, 11:22 AM

The main problem i find with this deck is the lack of threats. I have been testing this deck on and off for a few months. If you don't win game one, this deck can easily become draw.dec. Even under a hard lock in game 2 your opponent can just force you to wait for a win condition and take their life total to 0. This has drawn many games for me. Although the deck is efficient and has many lock components, it cannot win fast enough. I find it needs more threats. The best suggested threats that also act as lock pieces have been glowrider (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=glowrider) and hokori, dust drinker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=hokori,_dust_drinker). They are not game ending beaters but they do speed up the clock. I personally prefer 3 glowrider in the board specifically for the combo matchup. They are horrid in the aggro matchup obviously but against combo they speed up the clock and control the board at the same time. With mox diamonds, winter orb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=winter%20orb)/hokori is a house. even without it, 6-7 of our lands provide 2 mana so its still asymetrical. also winter orb combos with tanglewire and the tabernacle at pendrell vale. i have found 3 city of traitors to not be a problem when combined with 3 crucibles.

@lillelassie: 4 wraths are a must. combined with ghostly prison, they are the sole things that allow you to survive the fast aggro matchups.

edit: I will post a deck list later. I cannot recall it off the top of my head. What do you use disenchant against? The only thing i could think that would really be a threat would be serenity and disk. I handled both of these with 3 sideboarded karmic justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=karmic_justice). this could take the place of henna's custody atleast. It fortifies the strategy of the deck by removing their permanents and enabling smokestack pretty much. this either shuts down disk or it becomes a one-side apocalypse.

although a very heated topic generally, did you find that you wanted any kind of card advantage/quality? i tested 2 bottled cloister (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=bottled%20cloister) briefly and they didnt really do the trick. the main problem was i didnt draw them when i needed them. i didn't want to fix this by adding more so eventually i took them out. this i found to be the best permanent, brown/white solution.... but it sux.

eidt2: also in your article you forgot to mention that the best reason to chalice for 1 is stp. with very few win conditions, you don't need them removed from the game.

edit3: taken from another of my post about stax

other ideas for kill conditions have been juggernaut and eater of days for the 'combo-kill' with smokestack. at most i would run 4 angels and 2 juggernaut OR 2 eater of days. eater of days is ONLY good in a few situations:
- opponent has no land with trinisphere in play
- opponent has around 5ish lands and you play tangle wire and eater the same turn w/ 3pshere in play
- you play eater turn after smokestack goes to 2 or more

since it requires a somewhat combo-esque play to come out in a nonselfdestructive fashion, it is a weak include i feel. on the other hand juggernaut can come in and make quick work of an opponent if given the oppurtunity.
As you can see, I really feel that angel stax's biggest pitfall is its inability to end a game.

I'm done editing.... sorry. i'll post something new if i have anything else to say.

lillelassie

01-10-2006, 11:34 AM

okay.. but I have trouble making double white anyways.. for hte wraths..

i also run 4 crucible.. my favourite card. protects tou own land.. can return city and wastes.. and also lands pitched to a mox

besides its combo with smokestack..

with crucible in the deck is armageddon a viable sb card against combo and control?

I run 1 Karn.. a bit random.. but if they somehow deals with angels you always have him.. also I only play angels when I have the lock, this way you don't lack the winconditions..

outsideangel

01-10-2006, 08:31 PM

Funny... I was always one of the biggest advocates of Suppression Field, and just as I start to cut it, you write an article advocating it as a 4-of. Will we ever agree? :)

Anyways....

I've been having a lot of success with Moat. I run 1 copy to Tutor for, but you might consider substituting some number of Wraths and/or Prisons with an equal number of Moats.

How have Rishadan Ports been treating you in conjuction with Suppression Fields? I remember running a mono-white list some time ago that looked very, very similar to yours, except that I always found that with Suppression Field, Port cost too much mana to activate to be worth it. Running fewer Ports also let me run more colored sources, to reliably hit WW for Wrath and Angel. I also ran a 3/3 Tomb/City configuration to cut down on the instances of double-Tomb draws, which cause you a lot of pain, but I think your 4/2 configuration is better.

Your new list looks good, much better than the last one. Then again, maybe I just like it because it looks a lot more like mine used to... :roll: No, I'm pretty sure you've tuned and tested considerably, and it shows. Good stuff.

Machinus

01-11-2006, 12:18 AM

You don't use Port when Field is out. It's that simple. Field doesn't come out more than half of the time in an average game, and Port is excellent in the rest of the games.

Lego

01-14-2006, 12:28 AM

I dropped a Wrath for an Angel, in case anyone cares.

That being said, I think 4 win conditions is plenty. I've considered testing Mishra's Factory in the place of Ports (again, knowing that you don't use them if Suppression Field hits) because they can block all day, and provide another win condition, but that's probably because I simply haven't played against enough decks where Port was an issue. I think I just have amazing topdeck skill and establish locks much quicker than this deck should.

That being said, I find that in tournaments most people will scoop once the lock hits play. Sometimes game two they'll want to wait it out for the draw, but often they'll ask what my win condition is, and after telling them they'll scoop.

If you're *really* having trouble with establishing a hard lock, and people drawing you based on time, call a judge. If they have no permanents in play and there's a Stax at one with a Crucible in play (i.e. the hard lock) they should not be taking more than 30 seconds for their turn. Draw, maybe play a land, discard. That's about it. Usually it'll be even faster than that, and I find that is *PLENTY* of time to draw the kill. She only needs to wing five times max. If it's setting up the lock that you're having trouble with, I suggest testing the deck more until you're comfortable with how to go about it, because I haven't had much trouble setting up enough of a lock to ride an Angel to the win.

Incidentally, in the past two weeks I've taken this to the scrubby T1.5 tournaments we hold at my local store. Both times I won the tournament without losing a single match. Granted, a couple times I played against such scrubby decks that after dropping a Trinisphere and maybe wasting a few lands, I feel safe to ride an angel to the win. But I've also played it against Thresh several times, Goblins twice, Solidarity, RGSA, and some other viable decks. It may be lack of play skill or something, but I usually steam roll them.

On one final note, I finished a game against Threshold with 40 life while they had 0 permanents in play. The matchup is *THAT* good :)

Bane of the Living

01-14-2006, 12:25 PM

Black stax decks have been using Braids and Haunting Echoes. Which are both rediculous in the deck.

I know you want to keep this a mono w discussion but you never did talk about the choices you made to come to mono w. Is it basically supression field?

Citrus-God

01-14-2006, 08:55 PM

Angel Stax has a better clock, a better win, and a better consistentcy of slaughtering more decks than Black Stax.

With Angel Stax, you can ramp up counters on Smokestack and do some beatz with Angel until they have hardly anything in play and your dead because you don't have any resources left and you took some mad beatings from Angel.

Braids Stax is also like Angel Stax. Plus, with the new inclusion of E Tutor, it has good match ups against Combo!

LMA, I too also tried Factories. It was good in the old build, with 1Sphere and Keg, but the new one it seems that Port is better in here. I really wanna shove Factories back in here.

Machinus

01-15-2006, 12:06 AM

I know you want to keep this a mono w discussion but you never did talk about the choices you made to come to mono w.

If you had read the articles linked at the top of the page, you would know that I did talk about other colors in my first article.

Lego

01-15-2006, 01:24 AM

The Mono W build is basically for consistancy, and because the black splash offers nothing to make the bad matchups better. Right now the two most important matchups (for any deck) are Goblins and Threshold.

The Threshold matchup is already so amazing that Haunting Echoes isn't needed. I've honestly lost like two matches in testing against Threshold ever, and I've tested well over 30 matches.

As for Goblins, the extra Stax effect, in my testing, hasn't been enough to do it, because it gets killed easily, and you're sacrificing Wrath to play it. I'd much rather have a Wrath than a Braids in this matchup.

Basically every other matchup either boils down to Wrath being better than Braids, or you winning without Braids. There's no sense in making yourself more Wasteland/Color Screw susceptible for a card that does little to improve your matchups.

Bane of the Living

01-15-2006, 04:53 PM

Well I was asking because I did read your articles, all three of them. But they didnt say anything to me about you testing the black cards. I figured maybe your just biased. I continue to assume so.

@Anti & Lego thnx for giving me more of an explaination. I figured since I'm showing interenst in this archetype we could have a little chat about card choices instead of THIS IS THAT. Have either of you physically tested black splash yourselves? I'm smart enough to see the pros and cons myself, I'm just wondering which people prefer.

It seems very split so I'm just tallying votes here. Lata

Lego

01-15-2006, 08:30 PM

@ Bane: I feel like in the end it really comes down to a matter of personal preference. Around here I need to beat Threshold, and that's about it. I can do that amazingly consistantly with Angel Stax, so that's good enough for me. Splashing black wouldn't change that too much, but the Enlightened Tutor build I've been seeing, in my opinion, is not the way to go. While increasing your versatility, it slows you down by a turn, which greatly hinders your Thresh and Goblins matchup.

Thresh and Goblins are the two most played decks right now, we can say that without a doubt. In both of these matchups, I have found that first turn Chalice for 1 is game breaking. In the Threshold match, it ends the game, plain and simple. Against Goblins, it stops all of their broken acceleration, and gives you time to put the game away. Moving on, Suppression Field is also amazing in both of these matchups. For that reason both of these, IMO, need to be a 4 of. After that, do the Tutor thing if you want, but don't cry when it gets predicted :wink:

That other thing you lose in the Black splash is Wrath of God. I just haven't seen any instances where Braids is better than Wrath. The Combo matchup is already locked down, Braids or no. Thresh is already *heavily* in your favor, and Wrath only makes the Goblin matchup better. What matchup can you give me that the loss of Wrath is worth the inclusion of Braids? I can't think of one single matchup.

And finally, in most games Wasteland isn't an issue, and if it is you're probably losing anyway, but I still don't like to make myself unnecessarily susceptible to it. If you already have as good (and sometimes better) matchups with Mono-White, what is the point in going the black route?

Citrus-God

01-15-2006, 11:45 PM

Both decks are pretty much the same, except they play very differently. Its like this, theres Uba Stax, Cron Stax, and Rainbow Stax.

Uba is all out aggressive. It will shut down all your mana, then lock you to death.

Cron is more defensive. It always tries and survives through the game until it locks the opponent. While the game progresses, it uses silver bullets to solve problems.

Rainbow can change between roles. It has Silver Bullets, and mana denial to live through the game, or seals it.

So with legacy it's like this...

Braids Staxs is more aggressive than Angel Stax. Only time I saw myself super aggressive is when I have an Angel out, ready to smash face.

Angel Stax is in the defensive, unless your going Turbo Angel, or doing that Smokestack/Angel trick to keep them in a 5 turn clock.

Bane of the Living

01-16-2006, 04:43 PM

Does Uba mask work in the deck?

Is anyone having trouble with white mana sources? I sometimes feel 9 Plains and 4 Diamonds to not be enough.

Citrus-God

01-16-2006, 04:52 PM

ehh... Uba Mask is good, but not in this deck. I guess you could use it against Gro and other draw heavy decks, but other than that, it seems kinda pointless.

Well, thing is, 13 is enough, but with the loss of fetchlands, it seems like when a Crucible is active, you don't get to reuse it. I replaced my fetchlands with Urza's Saga Plains. Everytime I drew one, and I have a Crucible active and I need that 2nd White for WoG, I never got it...

Bane of the Living

01-16-2006, 05:03 PM

Ok, so It's good to know I'm not alone. What can we do to fix this? Cut some ports? Thats probably the best decision. Port turns to a pile when you have suppression field anyways. I really dont like that the deck can become anti synergistic like that. Especially w no draw.

Lego

01-16-2006, 05:27 PM

I don't find that Angel Stax is defensive at all. If we're defining defensive as reactive, which is usually how I would define it in Magic, then Angel Stax is the opposite of defensive. It's Uber Aggressive in that you're trying to play your lock before they can do anything. The fact that your aggression is geared towards things other than their life total doesn't mean it isn't aggression.

The only reason I would say Angel Stax is more defensive (read: reactive) than Braid Stax is that Braid Stax aggressively goes for the Stax lock, while Angel Stax has a very reactive card in Wrath of God. Still, with the E-Tutor "Bullet" engine, Braid Stax becomes much more reactive.

Citrus-God

01-16-2006, 05:29 PM

They very good cards, if you cut the, you cut mana denial for negation. There are times you will like having Ports around, esspecially when your trying to lock your opponent down.

Bane of the Living

01-16-2006, 06:44 PM

Playing around with Machinus' build I've adjusted it to..
-1 Rishadin Port
-1 Wrath of God
+1 Plains
+1 Exalted Angel

Toranor

01-16-2006, 07:39 PM

Yesterday I took part in a tournament here in Germany.
Not having played any legacy tourmanents before, I was curious if Angel Stax would do me good.
I don't know if it was due to bad luck, lack of experience in legacy or even both but I went only 3-2-1 although the match-ups were in my favour and although I won the dice roll 5 times (usually I lose it quite often)...
Unfortunately I had to play with only 2 Rishadan Ports (replaced with 1 Plains and 1 City of Traitors) and I added 1 Hokori, Dusk Drinker as a 61st card (using Machinus' list) but I don't think that these are reasons of great importance for my result.

In round 1 I played against Solidarity. I would have won the 3rd game easily but it was time out and there was no Angel to be seen...
Maybe here it was lack of experience because I could have saved some time by resigning earlier in the 2nd game.

The next round went better. My opponent played a bad kind of Reanimator. It was a fast 2-0.

In round 3 I lost 0-2 to Threshold. You guys always tell this match-up was so good but I had no chance. Maybe this time it was bad luck at its worst. I always drew the wrong cards, got everything countered and probably made some mistakes due to my lack of experience.

Then I had to play against Salvagers Combo (Golden Graham's). With Trinisphere and Suppression Field the match was a nightmare for my opponent...

After that I was faced with Threshold again. This time I lost only by 2-1 but how this happed, omg...
In the last game I drew a Smokestack and then three Mox Dimonds one after the other followed by a Smokestack but I have to say that there was already a Trinisphere on the table and I had only a Plains and a Tomb in play and I had no land in my hand. I didn't see a Wrath of God nor a Ghostly Prison in that game but my opponent got 3 creatures on the table. Unfortunately I played something and got 2 damage by a Tomb before I drew the useless cards mentioned above. To make a long story short:
In the last extra turn my opponent finished me but if I hadn't taken the
two damage, I would have survived...

The last round was easy again. My opponent played something like Fish and didn't have a chance. I remember the 2nd game.
When he gave up the board possition was something like this:
He had nothing left in play.
On my side there were 1 Trinisphere, 1 Defense Grid, 1 Smokestack with one counter on it, 3 Chalice set for 1, 2 and 5 *g*, 1 Crucible, 1 Suppression Field, 2 Ghostly Prison...
I didn't see an Angel but I think his dicision was somewhat right...

What I found a bit difficult sometimes was boarding cards. It was easy to see which card had to come in but I found it difficult to decide which cards I should take out. I even wondered if Tormod's Crypt was really better than the cards in the main deck against Thresh.

Maybe you can help me a bit out and tell me how to board exactly and give some examples when to mulligan and when not. I did it sometimes but most of the time I was happy with my first 7 cards. I think I did go down to 6 cards about 4 times and down to 5 cards only once.

Machinus

01-16-2006, 10:28 PM

Thank you for the brief report. I'd be glad to talk about matchups.

Regarding threshold, the matchup takes a lot of practice to understand, but Stax really does have a big advantage. One really important tactic is to make sure you leave Daze mana open. In the early game, this makes their hand a question of force/no force.

There are some other subtle plays, like which mana sources to play first, what to sandbag, and what order to play lock parts in. It just takes practice (playtesting the early game is a good way to figure this stuff out).

As for mulliganing, again, it depends on what you know about your opponent's deck. On turn 1, all the 2-3cc lock parts are good except tangle wire. The deck has no draw engine, so you need to make sure you have a strong way to stall the game so you can draw more cards.

An important thing to remember about mulliganing is the mana curve of the deck. You can afford to miss land drops if you start strong with 3 mana on turn 2. Even slow hands can be keepable if they have the right cards in them against certain decks.

Sideboarding can be tricky. One thing that I found is that against blue based decks, the deck can't afford to draw multiple copies that don't do very much. Against threshold I sided out the crucibles, one mox, and one suppression field, because the crucibles were abysmal in that matchup and drawing a second mox or field was usually a wasted card. Crypt can buy a lot of time, especially since gaining threshold after using it can be difficult if a chalice or trinisphere is out. Defense Grid is really helpful, since it makes counterspells useless, which lets you resolve important cards when you need to.

Bane of the Living

01-16-2006, 10:39 PM

Wow you side out crucibles? I dont really understand. Wastelock is amazing against them, and stax lock is really where i start to turn the tide against them, especially with the very low perm count they have.

I know this version is running without e tutor. But for anyone that runs stax w it, what do you think about playing phyrexian processor? its a tutorable win condition, it makes tokens to sac to stax. that means you can go to 2 counters if you have a crucible in play too. Did I mention you can pay like 5 life and make a creature most removal/creatures cant handle every turn!?

Lego

01-17-2006, 02:39 PM

I would never side my Crucibles out against Thresh, and I wouldn't want to let the Diamonds or Suppression Fields go either. Recurring Wasteland against the deck is great, and makes your Stax even better. Diamond allows for first turn Chalice for 1 (gg) and Suppression Field (with 8 fetches, this can sometimes just destroy their hand).

(Random side note: I was thinking of a Green splash in Stax instead of White, but I can't remember what it was for. I considered Root Maze in addition, but this was something else. Can someone think of some reason I would have been considering Green in Stax, other than simply being crazy?)

EDIT: I remembered. It was Exploration. Don't hate me.
EDIT 2: Seriously, think about it. It accelerates you into turn 2 Smokestack, and allows you to put the Stack to two or three counters. It also allows for Wasteland recursion twice as fast with Crucible, and lets you do it while also making land drops.
EDIT 3: Okay, nevermind. It's worse than Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison, Wrath of God, and Exalted Angel, so it would require two colors, which means even more damage from lands. Sorry.

Citrus-God

01-17-2006, 06:51 PM

For Gro, I side Prisons out. I hate drawing them like all the time. I mean they don't stop Enforcer from smashing my face, but WoG does, but still, If I had the money, I would swap those Prisons for Moats.

Lego

01-18-2006, 04:47 PM

Citrus-God

01-19-2006, 12:48 AM

ehh... as long as Mongoose and Werebear don't touch me.

Lego

01-19-2006, 11:22 AM

Then you'll only be taking 6 damage a turn... and that's good? In many games I'll stall up the ground with Werebear and Mongoose, and then just win with Enforcer. He's the beats :wink:

Bane of the Living

01-20-2006, 05:29 PM

I've been having problems with Ying Yang and Pox varients. Discard hurts this deck alot since you arent playing any effin card draw. If anything it's hard for me to win the game. I dont feel safe slammin angel down early because of pox/edict/whatever. At the same time she's no safer in my hand thanks to hymns and such. Has anyone had significant testing in this area? Im thinking it's better to play out an angel and cross my fingers. It's better than losing 1/4 of my win conditions to hand removal right?

Oh and my buddy playing pox has come to realize how much nether spirit shines in the face of stax. What's the best way to handle this? SB stp? Just stax to 2?

arsenal_14

01-20-2006, 08:34 PM

Something that I noticed through my testing of Stax, especially in Legacy, it is very difficult to hold your lock until you find your win condition. You may not have a complete lock and then your opponent breaks out through discard or begins a counter offensive and then your game gets out of hand.

Citrus-God

01-21-2006, 12:38 PM

Then you'll only be taking 6 damage a turn... and that's good? In many games I'll stall up the ground with Werebear and Mongoose, and then just win with Enforcer. He's the beats :wink:

err... Stupid Enforcer. lol.

Anyway, Ghostly Prison has been good for me now. It took me like while to do something, I mean I hate having them around versus Gro, but versus things like Goblins, I love it. It just stalls the whole game until you kill off their swarm.

Gro is really hard, I mean I had to stall till' late game until their left topdecking, and I have like 3 Ghostly Prisons in play, and a Crucible out killing their mana.

Lego

01-21-2006, 03:13 PM

I don't understand how so many people are having such issues with the Gro matchup. Every card in your deck is a bomb against them, and I've never had an issue resolving much because of the pressure you put on them. Anything that resolves is potentially game breaking, and allows even more stuff to resolve. If you're playing the same list I am, chock full of must counters, you'll always have about twice as many threats as they have counters, and they'll be spending so much time floundering under your lock, trying to stay up, that they won't even be able to attaint Threshold or start beating.

Citrus-God

01-21-2006, 11:05 PM

Thing is, I only have trouble with Gro Pre Board. Post board it's pretty much an Auto Win for me just about everytime. I'm moe worried about the 1st Game, cuz this Red Gro guy played Winter Orb on me on Game 3, and I lost pretty much...

SillyMetalGAT

01-22-2006, 12:19 AM

What are you siding against gro? enforcer seems as tho he would be a problem but no one here is playin him :P

@LAM
Are you currently playing E tutors in MONO W? It seems you could easily fit it and get the best of both braids stax and this version. To me the tutor aspect of b/w is what lures me to it anyways.

Citrus-God

01-22-2006, 02:42 AM

Braids Stax runs e tutor because it doesn't have Chalice to stop it. Angel Stax isn't running it because it runs Chalice.

SillyMetalGAT

01-22-2006, 02:59 AM

If you dont play chalice in Stax, dont play Stax at all. You can run BOTH chalice and E tutor, you dont see both ALL the time..... and if you drop chalice, usually you dont need to E tutor, you just dismantled enough of your opponents deck to buy time.

Lego

01-22-2006, 01:35 PM

I don't run Enlightened Tutor because it makes me run narrow answers and slows down the deck by a turn or two. Opening the nuts with E-Tutor looks like this:

Plains, City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Wasteland, Crucible of Worlds, Tangle Wire, Enlightened Tutor

I would much rather have any lock piece in place of that Tutor. First turn Crucible isn't going to stop them from running away with the game, and first turn Tutor isn't either. Enlightened Tutor decreases the change of Turn 1 Chalice, Trinisphere, Supression Field, Exalted Angel, and even the slightly useless (but nice to use the mana) Ghostly Prison.

The reason that I don't run Tutor is that most of my answers are good against most of the decks that I see, and I never really find instances where I want the Tutor. In my mind it wouldn't be good without draw until turn 4 or 5, when you've already got them mostly locked and just need one more lock piece, and you can afford to pass back. To me, the most important turns are 1-3, and Tutor makes those turns worse.

outsideangel

01-22-2006, 05:51 PM

I rarely would play Enlightened Tutor early, and never first turn. Tutor lets you get the best lock piece for the situation. Against Gro, for example, that E.Tutor in your opening hand would turn into Chalice of the Void. (Yes, you can run both) Against Goblins, it becomes a Moat. Or, of course, you can grab Smokestack to go with your Crucible.

Running Enlightened Tutor makes a toolbox seem like a good idea. However, as you correctly identified, running narrow answers is bad. However, Enlightened Tutor let's us run slightly more narrow, but still pretty broad answers as one-of replacements for the broad answers we're already running. (Ghostly Prison to Moat, for example) It also makes the deck more redundant, because you have additional ways to find whatever lock piece you want just then, or the slightly more narrow verisons. Of course, in b/w, I also run a NoSB and a Plague, more as metagame slots than anything else, which you would be less likely to do in the mono-white version. It also opens up the possibility of nice sideboard one-ofs like Sacred Ground.

I don't think Tutor is necessary, and both mono-white and b/w are fine without them, but I like the increased versatility and redundancy that Enlightened Tutor provides.

Ebinsugewa

01-22-2006, 06:25 PM

Against Goblins, it becomes a Moat.

Chances are good that against Goblins, you want Humility. Moat does nothing to stop the Goblins player from fetching up Siege-Gang and going to town. I do not have extensive experience with Stax, but whenever I have played a deck that contains Moat against Goblins, I always wish it was Humility.

Lego

01-22-2006, 07:15 PM

Against Gro, when you cast that first turn Tutor for Chalice, you're giving them a chance to Daze it, another turn to draw into a Force of Will, and a turn to play that Mongoose. And if you're on the draw, there's the one in ten when they'll have the predict.

Bane of the Living

01-22-2006, 09:08 PM

LAM i dont think you get that you should play 4 cotv still. If you have one in hand play it! if you dont, GET IT! Thats all there is too it. Chalice is SO GOOD against thresh that if you get 1-2 your solid. We know that, so why not play fuckin 6-8 copies! Theyre going to get countered one way or another, tutor helps you force them through. who cares if it costs you a turn/draw to tutor. it costs them a bounced land to daze or a life and a card and a fow to fow! card advantage = power.

And god yes tutor allows you to play sweet sweet sacred ground. What a godsend being a one of eh? There are many other bomb sideboard 1 of's to wish for, let me list some...

Sacred Ground
Solitary Confinement
Silent Arbiter
Meekstone
Horn of Greed
Moat/Humiliy/Reverance/Orims Prayer
Bottled Cloister
Light of Day/Sphere of Law/Sphere of Truth
Forcefield
Karma
Winter Orb
Aura of Silence
Seal of Cleansing
Faiths Feathers
Honden of Cleansing Fire
CoPs
Ivory Mask
Jesters Cap
Planer Colapse
Powder Keg
Tormods Crypt/Furnace
ect.

Some of these interfere with suppression field but still, holy piss dont those look aluring?

And also gives you tutorable win conditions..
Phyrexian Incubator
Juggernaut
Panoptic Mirror

At the worst! you could pull 1 ghostly prison and 1 trinisphere for 2 e tutors. If you don't, your just being a punk ass.

Lego

01-22-2006, 09:55 PM

There's just nothing I want to play them in place of. I guess I'll do the -1 Ghostly Prison, -1 Trinisphere thing for two of them, but that leaves me at 2 Trinisphere. Sad. I'll test it.

Machinus

01-22-2006, 10:17 PM

I tested many of the cards mentioned here before I came up with the decklist I posted at SCG.

There are a lot of problems with cards like Humility and E-tutor. Mostly, the deck needs to exploit the strengths it has, and try to protect it's weaknesses. Something the deck really needs to do is get rid of permanents, and Wrath is one of the strongest cards in the deck. Also, without a draw engine, e-tutor is two draw steps for one card. No card in the deck is powerful enough to be worth that. It is just a better idea to run a consistent and synergistic deck in the first place. E-tutor is an unacceptably large tempo loss for such a small gain.

I would never side my Crucibles out against Thresh, and I wouldn't want to let the Diamonds or Suppression Fields go either. Recurring Wasteland against the deck is great, and makes your Stax even better. Diamond allows for first turn Chalice for 1 (gg) and Suppression Field (with 8 fetches, this can sometimes just destroy their hand).

One thing I should note is that a good threshold deck will have 2-4 basic lands, and they will always, always play those. They will never have more than 1-2 nonbasics over the course of the game, and crucible becomes a dead card. If you are playing against threshold.fr, then crucibles are good, but I haven't played against any manabase as bad as that yet.

Drawing diamond #2 and field #2 is just really bad against a deck with so much draw. It is too big of a risk to keep the cards in. Your best bet is to mulligan aggressively and play around their cards.

James Bond

01-23-2006, 05:24 PM

Does anybody here know how STP would compare with wrath of god?

Bane of the Living

01-23-2006, 05:55 PM

With trinisphere out it will cost three anyways. One less than wrath and one target = suck. Calice for one interfers with it as well.

Alot of the creatures you would want to hit like troll aestetic and mongoose cant be stp'd. Wrath also is a natural punisher of the overextending aggro player. Alot of decks need to overextend their army due to tangle wires.

I've been playing the deck with 3 E tutors. Cutting one chalice, (not as good in my meta) one prison, and one trinisphere. I like it. I've also taken out a mox diamond for a chrome mox. It's nice to tutor for when I need a mana source next turn and I have dead wrath's in my hand playing against control and combo.

EDIT
Whats up with shattering spree? Does chalice recognize the copies as having the 1cc or not? I thought I was sure they get countered, as storm copies do as well. Right?

Someone told me that the chalice doesnt 'see' the replicated spells. That doesnt makes sense..

Machinus

01-23-2006, 07:57 PM

Chalice only counters the first Spree.

However, the first spree costs 2R with 3sphere out, so it is basically a crappy shatterstorm against Stax, since it is likely to have either chalice or 3sphere out. Affinity is a different story...

SillyMetalGAT

01-27-2006, 11:43 PM

humility is probably the WORST card you could put in this deck. Your only running 3-4 angel as your kill, if you play humility, your begging for a draw... i know for a fact that if i played against Stax and they dropped humility, i would not scoop.

As for E. Tutor...... When your entire deck is comprised of enchantments and artifacts.... the ability to tutor them for 1 mana is pretty redonkulous. Even though you play chalice, its still a bomb card.

SenilePack

01-28-2006, 09:42 AM

I'm still confused as to the strength of this deck. How does it avoid sacrifices to the stack?

Eldariel

01-28-2006, 10:19 AM

Crucible. It uses Crucible to create permanent-advantage and then Stack to capitalize. That along with expendable lock pieces and such. Mmm, and about Shattering Spree, the replicate copies have a casting cost of 0, I recall, so a Chalice at once AND at 0 would counter the whole Spree.

Bane of the Living

01-28-2006, 10:31 AM

CotV for 0 hits them? Thats awsome. But what if you dont have one set for 1? Then they can hit chailice with the first one and the rest will resolve. Feel free to quote me on this or laugh but.. I think Shattering Spree may be the best card in the set. Not sure if anyone plays Vintage but it's complete hell now.

Well if I was going to play with humility Id play Phyrexian Processor or something. Processor will put big fat demonoids into play while your opponent has a meager army of 1/1's. That's putting a huge change in the deck and I dont think I'd want to do that, I was more or less just giving examples. I would rather play Reverance.
2ww
Enchantment
Creatures with power 2 or less can't attack you
I've seen people scoop to this buck rare before, its a beautiful thing.

This deck locks quicker than you think, with 3sphere on the table and stacks going you can achieve a lock even without crucible. Just about every card in the deck is a perm so you draw oen pretty much every turn. Sooner or later you'll hit a crucible. Stax is so crazy against decks that keep low perm counts like Landstill, Tog, Thresh, Burn, Pox, Combo.

Eldariel

01-28-2006, 11:26 AM

No, wait, sorry, I had that wrong. Replicate-copies are not played, they're put on the stack, so Chalice doesn't affect them at all :(

Bane of the Living

01-28-2006, 11:35 AM

Shit what do we do??

And why does chalice work with storm but not replicate. This is very frustrating.

Lukas Preuss

01-28-2006, 12:13 PM

Chalice doesn't work with storm.

"Q: I looked through your database and didn't see the answer to this question so if its already been answered, I am sorry for re-asking it. If someone plays a storm spell - say, Tendrils of Agony - would the copies of the spell be countered by a Chalice of the Void set to zero, or four, or can the copies not be countered at all by the Chalice? Also, how do the copies created by Isochron Scepter fit in with the previous question?

A: Chalice of the Void only triggers when a player plays a spell. The copies weren't played, so they can't be countered by the Chalice. The mana cost of the copied spell is still whatever is printed on the (original) card, so a Chalice with four counters would counter a Scepter-copy of Tendrils of Agony. "

--> http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Chalice+of+the+Void

Bane of the Living

01-28-2006, 12:39 PM

So replicate triggers when you play the spell just like storm does, whether or not the spell is countered. Does anyone think they made a mistake the first time around with storm, making combo anti counter? Wow. Jackasses.

The thing I dont understand is, if the spell is countered shouldn't replicate be countered? I understand it isnt since its an activated ability but this seems retardedly good. It's almost BETTER than storm. Even pithing needle cant touch it. Nor chill. wtf.

Lukas Preuss

01-28-2006, 01:10 PM

Actually, I think Pithing Needle CAN touch it, since it's an activated ability. I think it's the same with abilities like cycling, etc.

I'm not entirely sure on that one, though.

Obfuscate Freely

01-28-2006, 02:06 PM

Replicate

Replicate is an ability that lets you copy your instant and sorcery spells as you play them. Only cards from the Izzet guild (blue, red, or blue-red) have replicate.

Gigadrowse
{U}
Instant
Replicate {U} (When you play this spell, copy it for each time you paid its replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
Tap target permanent.

The official rules for the replicate ability are as follows:

502.52. Replicate

502.52a Replicate is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Replicate [cost]" means "As an additional cost to play this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times" and "When you play this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number of the copies." Paying a spell's replicate cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

502.52b If a spell has multiple instances of replicate, each is paid separately and triggers based on the payments made for it, not any other instance of replicate.

* Copies created with replicate will have replicate abilities themselves. However, since those copies aren't played, their replicate costs can't be paid and their replicate abilities won't trigger.

* Each copy is separate. If one of them is countered (including the actual spell card), the rest remain on the stack.

* If the replicate trigger is countered (by the _Scourge_(TM) spell Stifle, for example), no replicate copies will be created. The original spell will be unaffected.
Why are you all taking shots in the dark when you could just look this shit up?

Paying the Replicate cost of a spell puts a Replicate trigger on the stack upon announcement of the spell. Chalice will trigger at this point, if the spell's cc matches the number of counters it has.

Q: Am I right in that the only spells whose converted mana costs on the stack are variable are X-spells, so you can't get around a Chalice of the Void by paying Kicker/Buyback/Entwine costs?

A: That's correct. The CMC never changes even if you pay additional costs to play the spell. Only X spells are variable, and X on the stack is set at whatever you declared during announcement. In all other zones, X = 0.
So, a Chalice set at 1 will always counter the original Shattering Spree.

However, the Replicate trigger will go onto the stack regardless, and when it resolves some number of Shattering Spree copies will be placed onto the stack. As Eldarial said, Chalice doesn't trigger unless a spell is played, so the Spree copies will all be free to resolve.

Pithing Needle doesn't affect Replicate any more than it affects Kicker (not at all).

Anusien

01-29-2006, 02:18 AM

Zilla

01-29-2006, 02:32 AM

Please put Shattering Sprees in the board in preparation of beating Stax. You're going to lose because you cut something useful like Boil or REB, and I'm going to play the decks with good sideboards in the x-0 bracket. Boarding against Stax is an exercise in stupidity at the moment, because you can't count on facing one. There is almost no deck in the format that wants to board in artifact destruction (excluding Wishboards).
This is a good point. However, if Stax becomes more popular, (which I believe it will), it should be recognized that this is a massive roadblock to you. Furthermore, it's a bit inaccurate to assume that Shattering Spree is highly narrow; tons and tons of decks run artifact hate in the current meta, given that it's strong against a lot of prevalent cards: Needle, Explosives, Scroll, Vial, Moxen, everything in Stax, and everything in Ravager to name a very few. Artifact usage is at an all-time high right now, where enchantment usage is at a relative low. (Survival has obviously lost popularity due to Needle, and the only other prevalent enchantments at the moment are Humility, Lightning Rift, and a couple others.) Because of this, many decks have the luxury of running Shattering Spree or Tin Street Hooligan in the hate slot that would otherwise be occupied by Naturalize/Disenchant. Just something to consider.

Machinus

01-29-2006, 02:41 AM

However, if Stax becomes more popular, (which I believe it will), it should be recognized that this is a massive roadblock to you.
I disagree. Spree is not a significant problem for Angel Stax.

Unless a deck can spend its turn destroying more than one artifact, it doesn't generate enough tempo to improve it's board position against stax. Stax will just make another land drop, cast another permanent, and get closer to a lock.

Chalice will counter the first spree, which means that a deck needs RRR to destroy two artifacts with chalice out.

Trinisphere will make the first spree copy cost 2R. Destroying two artifacts costs 1RR.

Spree is a sorcery. That means that Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Suppression Field, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port can prevent the red player from getting enough red mana to even do anything with spree.

Goblins will have a hard time using spree effectively against Angel Stax. At the moment, Gobins is the only deck with nearly enough red mana to even use the card.

Ultimately, Rack and Ruin remains a much stronger card against Stax in Legacy.

[EDIT: changed incorrect mana costs.]

Obfuscate Freely

01-29-2006, 05:55 AM

Sigh.

Trinisphere
* Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied after any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.

* If a spell costs at least three mana due to additional costs, such as kicker costs, that's fine.

Shattering Spree will kill 3 artifacts for just RRR, even with a Trinisphere in play. Spree is strictly better than Rack and Ruin except for it's being a sorcery (although that is obviously a considerable disadvantage against Stax).

Legacy already has an awful lot of great anti-artifact cards, but Spree is unique in that it can double as a highly efficient spot-removal spell (by far the best reason for it to show up at all) and a fairly brutal hoser for heavy artifact decks like Affinity and Stax. I don't know that it will significantly affect the viability of Stax in the format, but it could certainly prove to be a problem.

Zilla

01-29-2006, 06:03 AM

Ultimately, Rack and Ruin remains a much stronger card against Stax in Legacy.
I'd call Artifact Mutation even better still, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

Machinus

01-29-2006, 01:04 PM

Sigh.Spree is strictly better than Rack and Ruin except for it's being a sorcery (although that is obviously a considerable disadvantage against Stax).

Actually, no it isn't. The multi-red requirement makes the card worse than R&R for almost every deck. 2R is significantly easier than RR, and at instant speed, R&R is much better.

Citrus-God

01-29-2006, 03:19 PM

I'd call Artifact Mutation even better still, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
I dunno... I mean Artifact Mutation can give you the Staxs/Tangle Wire advantage, but Rack and Ruin can kill off a couple lock coponents. I personally think their completely different due to the fact that they play different roles against Stax outside of artifact disruption.

Also, I too also think Spree is somewhat better than RnR. Spree can be used during a Tangle Wire upkeep, but RnR has to be used in a Main Phase, and by the time that happens, they have a Smokestack, ready to kill you off.

My call for which one is better, Serenity...

Machinus

01-29-2006, 03:22 PM

Also, I too also think Spree is somewhat better than RnR. Spree can be used during a Tangle Wire upkeep, but RnR has to be used in a Main Phase, and by the time that happens, they have a Smokestack, ready to kill you off.

I think you are confused...Spree is a sorcery, while Rack and Ruin is an instant. I think the single-red cost and the instant speed put R&R way ahead.

frogboy

01-29-2006, 03:50 PM

Artifact Mutation costs RG.

Citrus-God

01-29-2006, 03:50 PM

Oh... than RnR all the way. Spree sucks becaue it's a sorcery.

So... err... Rack and Ruin all the way.

dontbiteitholmes

01-29-2006, 04:18 PM

I think discussing Spree vs. Rack and Ruin is avoiding the issue of how hard sacred ground rages against STAX. It effectively makes smokestack and wasteland/crucible lock garbage when these are two of your most important lock elements. Not really an issue right now but should STAX become more popular it might be.

Machinus

01-29-2006, 04:31 PM

Aura Fracture is a card I had in early versions of my sideboard.

It is very good against Energy Flux, Serenity, Sacred Ground, etc. It also happens to cost 2W, and is a permanent that can answer multiple hosers.

If you are worried about enchantments coming in to hose your board, use this instead of Hannah's Custody.

Lego

01-29-2006, 04:49 PM

Machinus

01-29-2006, 04:55 PM

I'm already playing Sacred Ground in my Gro sideboard because of its ability to combat a few decks that I see relatively frequently, including this and Pikula. Playing Stax against Sacred Ground is not fun, and you definitely need something to combat it if you think you might see it. I've never tried Aura Fracture, how do you find it?

If you mean "how good is it," then it just depends on whether decks run enchantments that hose you or not. I used to see a LOT of Energy Fluxes, and Fracture is really solid against them. Flux, Serenity, and Sacred Ground all require that you wait a turn until they do anything, so Fracture has time to knock them out. You can lay the fracture early and wait for them to try to remove it before playing their hate cards (which gives you more turns), or you can drop it right after they play the hate and blow up their stuff then. The activation cost is negligible since you have Crucible, and even with Field out, it is a bargain. I think four Disenchant and two Aura Fracture are more than enough protection in the sideboard.

Citrus-God

01-29-2006, 05:13 PM

ehh... I remember I was against Angel Stompy, and he went Sacred Ground on my ass and it was not fun. Sad to say, game 3, I played a 1st turn Chalice, then a second turn Chalice out of a couple tombs... I pretty much just fucked his whole deck up...

Zilla

01-29-2006, 05:14 PM

Artifact Mutation costs RG.
Wow, frogx0r, this is almost spam. It's also not particularly relevant, since most decks running red these days are also running Green. UGr Thresh? Red and Green. Goblins? Lots of builds are running green over white for Tin Street Hooligan and/or Tranquil Domain. RG Beats? Red and Green. Zoo? Red and Green. In most cases, RG is actually easier to achieve, than say, multiple red for Shattering Spree. The one less mana can be highly relevant in the Stax and Ravager matchups.

As for Anti-American's comparison of R&R vs. Mutation, I'll agree that in some cases R&R can be more effective in the Stax matchup. Then again, Mutation isn't completely terrible in non-Stax/Ravager matchups where your opponent may only have a single artifact to target. Further, I would assert that having multiple threats (even little ones) in the Stax matchup can be more important than removing two key threats. Stax's creature removal contingent is actually rather thin. Assuming you can keep Angel off the table, it's not all that difficult to ride several weenies to victory. The fact that they allow you more wiggle room in working around Stax and Tangle Wire is also highly significant.

Bane of the Living

01-29-2006, 10:51 PM

I've been playing Aura of Silence as a one of in my deck. (I play E tutor)

It's worked amazingly well. I tutor it up against affinity but it can be used many ways. It serves to help the lock aspects of your deck and doubles as Seal of Cleansing in a pinch.

Citrus-God

01-29-2006, 11:58 PM

As for Anti-American's comparison of R&R vs. Mutation, I'll agree that in some cases R&R can be more effective in the Stax matchup. Then again, Mutation isn't completely terrible in non-Stax/Ravager matchups where your opponent may only have a single artifact to target. Further, I would assert that having multiple threats (even little ones) in the Stax matchup can be more important than removing two key threats. Stax's creature removal contingent is actually rather thin. Assuming you can keep Angel off the table, it's not all that difficult to ride several weenies to victory. The fact that they allow you more wiggle room in working around Stax and Tangle Wire is also highly significant.

I agree. Esspecially with the new list out, Powder Keg isn't used at the moment.

SenilePack

01-30-2006, 09:44 PM

Has anyone tried Karn, Silver Golem over the angel? I'm thinking it's just an overall better creature(especially in this deck) for two main reasons:
1. Karn gives your opponent a two or three turn clock.
Angel gives them a five turn clock.
2. Karn requires no colored mana, thus you are more easily
able to play him consistently.

In my version of the deck, I made the following changes:
-1 WoG
-1 Plains
-3 Exalted Angel
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 City of Traitors
+3 Karn, Silver Golem

Reasoning for modifications:
1. While WoG was very good indeed, the four ghostly prisons seem to be holding off aggro decks quite easily(until I can draw into a Wrath).

2. One of the problems I had been having with the deck was the inability to finish games. Like Zilla said, when the opponent is actually able to attack with multiple(though small) threats, the angel takes quite a while to finish it. Karn on the other hand, allows you to not only block attackers with crucibles, smokestacks, etc., but also puts the opponent on a(depending on how much you have) two or three turn clock.

3. With the switch to Karn, it seemed only natural to add city of traitors, as it not only allows for Karn faster, but it also allows for more opportunities with turn 1 chalice. This addition also eased the pain of switching one wrath for a crucible.

What do you guys think?

Citrus-God

01-30-2006, 10:00 PM

I played with a lone Kran when it was the old build with Suppression Field, but you sir have just commited suicide. I mean you wanna pay 3 Mana to animate a lone Smokestack? I won't have anything against your deckbuilding right now if this were focused on the old build.

Bane of the Living

01-30-2006, 10:07 PM

I agree. Karn can be nutty nutsack in the right place at the right time but when you have suppression fields out your gonna have problems, just like with ports. Im only running 2 ports. I cut one for a plains and 1 for a city of traitors as well. 7 2 mana lands seems like the way to go.

The reason Karn isnt so needed is really any creature will do once you have lock down. If you wait till smokestack crumbles your opponent all you need to do is play a man. I took one angel out for one Juggarnaut. (I play e tutor) He's a tutorable win condition that can be cast turn 2 if you want some turbo threats. He's also a 4 turn clock not 5 turn. So he does help in that perspective.

SenilePack

01-30-2006, 10:17 PM

The thing that I like much more about Karn is that even with suppression field out, you can still use the ability, and if you don't the clock is just as fast as angel anyway and the fact that you can play him without the stupid plains.

BTW, could someone tell me what they took out for E. Tutor(Karn would become tutorable) and also, I was under the impression that morph is an activated ability.

Bane of the Living

01-30-2006, 10:26 PM

Morph is a static ability. Go R&D with their endless spiel of rulings.

For 3 E tutors I cut 1 Trinisphere,1 Chalice, and 1 Suppression Field. I can tutor for any missing pieces and chalice for 1 isnt as bomb in my meta, tho I'll probably make a switch to go to 4 anyways. Ill probably take out 1 Ghostly Prison/Wrath instead. Has anyone else tried 3 Mox Diamond, 1 Chrome Mox?

Against combo you really dont need wraths and prisons. It helps here.

Zilla

01-30-2006, 11:19 PM

2. One of the problems I had been having with the deck was the inability to finish games. Like Zilla said, when the opponent is actually able to attack with multiple(though small) threats, the angel takes quite a while to finish it. Karn on the other hand, allows you to not only block attackers with crucibles, smokestacks, etc., but also puts the opponent on a(depending on how much you have) two or three turn clock.
Actually, Karn tends worsens these circumstances. If your opponent has a bunch of weenies, they can chump block your attackers. Weenies don't chump Angels. Second, effectively racing Angel with a bunch of weenies is near impossible, due to the lifegain. It may take longer to kill, but it's evasive and the life point swings are bigger.

That's just my take on it though. I don't know how Karn compares in a general sense. I'll point out that Pithing Needle doesn't do anything agains Angel, either. It's a house against Karn.

Machinus

01-31-2006, 12:39 AM

Angel costs 3, and then 4. The cost division helps a lot in this deck.

The lifegain and flying-ness of the angel are invaluable qualities. She is hard to kill, blocks like a champ, and compensates for damage from early creatures and Ancient Tombs. The lifegain basically gives you more turns than you would have otherwise to get a lock down.

But honestly, you shouldn't be trying to beat down with this deck unless can get out an angel really early, like first or second turn. It is a waste of mana and cards to try to get an angel out when you should be playing lock components; likewise, by the time you have a lock, your kill isn't very important. The reason Angel is good is because she gains you so much life, allowing you to take early damage to develop your board quickly.

There isn't another creature I would rather have with white as the primary color.

Bane of the Living

01-31-2006, 12:42 AM

Doesnt Pithing Needle stop Morph tho? I dont remember, even if it did you can work around it.

Im trying to finalize my build for this weekend. I do want a bit of a change from Machinus' list. Mainly for Enlightened Tutor.

10 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Mishras Factory * Will be port soon.
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Rishadin Port

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Suppression Field
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Wrath of God
1 Reverance
1 Aura of Silence
1 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond
1 Powder Keg
1 Damping Matrix
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Tangle Wire

1 Exalted Angel
2 Juggarnaut **Will be Angels soon.

Notice how inconsistant this looks? Thats because enlightened tutor is in the deck. But if you draw it, it certainly is vampiric tutor lose 0 life. Ive used it to find a mox quite often, which actually added a mana fixer. Even if its a bad one, it still helps. Im not playing 3-4 Trinisphere but thats because I dont like to see 2. If its needed it can be tutored. Damping Matrix is a test spot over the 4th Tangle Wire. Reverance over 1 Wrath. One Mox switched with Chrome Mox. Little changes. But a ton. I really just wanted take advantage of tutor since I'm already making sacrifices to play it.

Suggestions?

Machinus

01-31-2006, 12:45 AM

Doesnt Pithing Needle stop Morph tho?.

No.

dontbiteitholmes

01-31-2006, 12:53 AM

So what is everyone running in their side? I hear all this and that about what is hot hate at the moment but there are about a million legit options to chip away at precious sideboard slots.

Bane of the Living

01-31-2006, 01:12 AM

Sorry! My sideboard..

3 Tormods Crypt
1 Suppression Field
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Disenchant
3 Hanna's Custody
2 Reverance
1 Powder Keg
1 Aura of Silence

Some missing pieces of the old maindeck. The ones that act well in multiples. Light of Day and Sphere of Truth since alot of my metas creatures are either or. Tormods Crypt is obvious. Seal of Removal over Disenchant cause I can tutor for it in a deck with no card draw. Dodecapod to fight dedicated pox players. Armageddon for suprise tactics but it may go. If I had Hanna's Custody I would play em.

Citrus-God

01-31-2006, 01:59 AM

Sphere of Law and Defense Grid should be in here. If Pox is in your area, run Sacred Ground. It's a strong card, and a powerfully defensive card against the Stax mirror and Pox. Homebrew will also have some trouble with Sinkholes and Wastelands unless they Vindicate your Sacred Ground.

Lego

01-31-2006, 01:48 PM

Seal of Removal + Suppression Field = not as good as Disenchant. If it helps that much that you can tutor for them, by all means stick with it, but 3W: Destroy target artifact or enchantment doesn't look fun :(

Bane of the Living

01-31-2006, 10:41 PM

Wow I didnt think of that. I'm not sure I would need the Seals or Disenchants anyways tho. Suppresion field already punishes most cards you'd need to hit with seals anyways. Such as survival.

SenilePack

02-01-2006, 05:17 PM

So could someone post the "optimal" build at this point if there is one? I'm curious as to the status of enlightened tutor in the deck, as well as the number of lock cards, i.e. crucible, stack, chalice, etc.

It would be much appreciated.
-SenilePack.

Machinus

02-01-2006, 05:32 PM

Bane of the Living

02-01-2006, 08:39 PM

My last list was drawing too inconsistant for me, here are the changes.

-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Reverance
-1 Aura of Silence
-1 Damping Matrix
-1 Powder Keg
+1 Tangle Wire
+1 Ghostly Prison
+1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Trinisphere

The sideboard changed as well. Alot of the time I was tutoring for needed lock parts. Why not just run more? Reverance was nice but I'm moving it to the board. 2 Enlightened Tutors is comfortable.

New Sideboard:
3 Disenchant
1 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sphere of Truth
1 Dodecapod
2 Powder Keg
2 Reverance
2 Light of Day

Armageddon was bad to draw without crucible in play so it left.

Bane of the Living

02-06-2006, 08:59 PM

Ok I played the deck this Sunday at my local tournament. Here is the extensive tournament report.

Round 1 Recur Survival
I dont remember the games that well but he was playing a version with Kokusho's and Yosei's. One game I got him down to no perms and he drops a land and bird in one turn. I forget to put stax to 2 and he gets to 2 mana, plays exhume and gets a Monkey. Kills my Stax. I played another but he exhumed again with Yosei. I lose again next game.
0-1

Round 2 G/R/W Survival
More survival! I play turn 1 Trinisphere. Crucible and Wasteland along with Suppresion field is too much for his mana base. He crumbles.
Game 2 he burning wishes for Meltdown. I have a Chalice set at 1, a Trinisphere, and a Smokestack. I keep him off land with wastelock and he needs to meltdown for 3. My turn I play Suppresion Field. Smokestacks keep pressure and he Wishes again, this time for Hull Breach. I play Chalice for 2 and he loses.

1-1

Round 3 Vial Gobs
He's playing Sacred Foundreys so I figure he maindecks STP I play a chalice and ghostly prison, he eventually beats through tho.
Game 2 I play turn 1 Chalice, Turn 2 Suppresion Field x2. This is enough to slow him while an Angel goes to town on him.
Game 3 He plays turn one Vial, I play turn one Suppresion Field. he drops a Wooded Foothills next turn. Why wouldnt he play this first?! He misses his next 2 land drops and angel comes down quick to end him while I have the opening.

2-1

Round 4 Flame Vault
Im very confident about this matchup. Game 1 I dont have much. I keep a hand with turn 1 Angel. Figuring he has to have Force to deal with it. He lets me unmorph it and then Chain of Vapor's it. I enlightened tutor for Chalice. I try to play it for 2 and it gets Forced. I play Smokestack and it resolves. After going to almost no perms he scoops.
Game 2 goes similar but he uses Stasis to prolong the game, skipping turns with vault. I figured he could win at any time but didn't end up seeing Flame Fullisade. I play Suppression Field and he wishes for Mana Severance. Obviously for Belcher. I get to 2 Smokestacks and put a counter on each, he takes an extra turn and loses 4 perms, opps! I win.

3-1

Round 5 Boros
Im looking to make top 4 now but first need to go through a good player. He beat he last week but this time I have Chalice to counter half his deck. I play turn 1 Chalice and he drops some 2cc beater, then he pillages my Chalice and plays Isamaru, Grim Lavamancer, and Lightning Bolt. I die before I can stabilize thanks to Ancient Tomb.
Game 2 He overextends into Wrath, Then I play Chalice for 1 and proceed to go to Smokestacks plan.
Game 3 Goes something similar.

I make it into top 4 as 4-1

Top 4 is Vial Goblins, Red Thresh, Aluren, and Me. I can't beat Aluren so I think about splitting. I find out I'd be playing Goblins and SillyMetalGAT told me I would be a pussy not to play. On comes the big battle..

Round 6 Vial Goblins
I'm playing against a good gob player, and we both gloat about winning. He has no idea what I'm playing..
I play turn 1 Ghostly Prison and never see double white for wrath. After a long battle with lock pieces he wins, one swing at a time.
I dont remember games 2 and three perfectly, but they were long, and plays were very neck and neck.
In one game I waste an early angel to slow him down. Gempalm eats it. Suppression Field makes a joke out of Vial and I battle through with Tangle Wires and Smokestack. In another game I let him hit me with his turn 1 Lackey. Deciding to play chalice instead of wasting tangle wire. He hits me and drops warcheif. Next turn I play Ghostly Prison. He swings and drops another Ringleader, catching one gob off it, then plays a piledriver. On my turn I play the Wrath that was sitting in my hand since I drew my 7. Smokestack makes short work of him, I hardcast Angel and next turn drop another, putting him at no perms and game over. Close games.

5-1

Thresh beat Aluren and we decide to draw. $60 store credit each instead of 30/90. I really wanted to play against him but figured $60 wasn't bad.
So there it is. My first paper tourny with the deck. Not bad at all.

Citrus-God

02-06-2006, 09:20 PM

Dude, it's easy to beat Aluren. You play Trinispheres and you can set Chalice for 2. That is easy enough to screw Aluren over. Wastelands and Rishadan Ports can also set the deck off by a turn to keep him pinned. Tangle Wires are strong here, but Wall of Blossoms will be in the way as well as Wall of Roots, and a bunch of other crap.

Other than what I say, good job. I'm glad your doing to friggin well with this deck. Also run Sphere of Law, I don't know why your not running it. You have Enlighten Tutor, that's good, run 2 and make the Goblin player sad. You should be hurt by Piledrivers. You have Ghostly Prisons and Tangle Wires/Smokestack to keep the guy pinned down.

Machinus

02-06-2006, 09:30 PM

Congratulations on your finish! If not for your mistake in Round 1, you might have won every match. More people should give this deck a try, and see what happens.

Angel Stax is really good in the current environment. Consider the matchups with prevalent decks:

High Tide, Salvagers, and IGG are all really easy matchups. Combo just loses to Prison.

Threshold is good matchup when they maindeck 3+ basics; any less than that, and it gets even better. The other blue-based Aggro-Control decks are very similar.

Loam and Rift decks are too slow, and get shut down by Field. Survival has a poor matchup unless it is running Black, and Angel Stax still has the advantage with Wrath and Field. Blue-based control has the best chance out of any control deck, but they have a really hard time against efficient mana denial - which is what Angel Stax uses. Most control decks shouldn't be a problem (this is one matchup where the sideboard really helps).

Enchantress has to get a really fast opening with Exploration in order to keep up; otherwise, Angel Stax will shut down its mana production and keep the permanents off the board. This isn't a very prevalent deck, but it can be dangerous as Green can run a lot of very good artifact hate in the sideboard.

Goblins and BWD are aggressive enough to pose a threat to Angel Stax, but these are just the kind of decks it was primarily designed to play against. Wrath and Ghostly Prison combined with the lock parts prevent these matchups from being terrible, even though god draws (basically, Lackey and Ritual) are too fast for Angel Stax.

In such a diverse and varied environment, Stax is not only a strong choice against most of the field, but it is still underplayed and unexpected. Look at the SCG top 8 sideboards. In total from all sideboards, there were five Disenchants, three Seal of Cleansing, one Sacred Ground, one Aura of Silence, and one Goblin Tinkerer. Thats only 1.38 cards per sideboard (average), and many of them are poor answers to Angel Stax.

The highest placing Threshold deck only had 2 Naturalize in the sideboard, and Solidarity wasn't boarding anything - and these are some of the decks best matchups.

Machinus

02-06-2006, 09:30 PM

Bane of the Living

02-06-2006, 11:50 PM

I still dont feel that good about going in against Aluren. Suppression Field is really the only card I play that can hurt them. Aluren gets around Trinisphere, they also have Living Wish to get a man to blow up field or an artifact. Maindeck Wrath and Ghostly Prison are terrible. He would definitly combo off before I can kill him with Angels. Besides he's a very good Aluren player. Where as I am not an amazing stax player. Not yet.

I forgot to mention that in game 2 against Flame Vault, I sided out 3/4 of my Angels. I knew he would scoop up to lock since he did game 1. -3 angel, -3 wrath, -3 prison. +1 powder keg, +1 aura of silence, +3 hannas custody, +3 disenchant, +1 sup field. I crushed him.

Citrus-God

02-07-2006, 07:45 PM

If he draws a Living Wish, he has only a single target; Suppression Field, or Trinisphere. Also they tend to be tapped out when they play Aluren for the win, so Tangle Wire can last for a very long time, also, I doubt he can do something like that in a single turn, so you have lots of things to do. If he only plays Viridian Zealot, expect Suppresion Field to shine. Chalice for 1 cuts off Brainstorm and Cabal Therapy. Only thing you should hate is Wall of Blossoms because they'll be using that as Tangle Wire and/or Smokestack bait.

Machinus

02-07-2006, 08:36 PM

Aluren gets around Trinisphere

If you let someone do this to you, they were cheating.

Bane of the Living

02-08-2006, 12:52 PM

He played that Monk that cost 1W and destroys an enchantment when it comes in play. How would Trinisphere help with Aluren? Arent you using Aluren to play the creatures free? Or does it just MAKE the creatures free? Shit I wish I thought about that before. No no one screwed me on that, I never played the match up.

dontbiteitholmes

02-08-2006, 01:55 PM

Loam and Rift decks are too slow, and get shut down by Field. Survival has a poor matchup unless it is running Black, and Angel Stax still has the advantage with Wrath and Field. Blue-based control has the best chance out of any control deck, but they have a really hard time against efficient mana denial - which is what Angel Stax uses. Most control decks shouldn't be a problem (this is one matchup where the sideboard really helps).

Enchantress has to get a really fast opening with Exploration in order to keep up; otherwise, Angel Stax will shut down its mana production and keep the permanents off the board. This isn't a very prevalent deck, but it can be dangerous as Green can run a lot of very good artifact hate in the sideboard.

In such a diverse and varied environment, Stax is not only a strong choice against most of the field, but it is still underplayed and unexpected. Look at the SCG top 8 sideboards. In total from all sideboards, there were five Disenchants, three Seal of Cleansing, one Sacred Ground, one Aura of Silence, and one Goblin Tinkerer. Thats only 1.38 cards per sideboard (average), and many of them are poor answers to Angel Stax.

As far as Life/Loam and Enchantress go have you actually tested these matchups or are you just making educated guesses? I have played against many Stax decks with my Enchantress build and the MD Fields one is by far my worst matchup. Out of 3 matches I have playtested against Angel Stax I am 1-1-1, I find this matchup often has alot to do with who goes first game one. The one I won I came with first turn exploration, second turn presence and quickly filled up the board with permanents then proceded to smash his face with pegasus tokens (under field). Then I was easily able to draw game 2 for the win. The draw one went basically the same game one only game 2 he basically got a god hand (first turn Ancient Tomb/Mox/Sphere, second turn Wasteland/Crucible, third turn Angel) which saved him from me drawing the game as there was only 5 mins. or so left in the round. All this was also before I shored up my sideboard with Sacred Ground (I had some anti-Stax SB tech on ice but decided not to run it as I figured noone would play it). Life/Loam has a Burning Wish board which could easily fit Seeds O' Innocence if Stax was a real concern and Devestating Dreams could be a bitch to your deck if you didn't have Crucible out (or if it got Hull Breached).
Not to say these aren't favorable matches for you but I say that to say this... Stax is sooooo slowwww and you have 3 win conditions total. This means that if you lose G1 (it does happen) you may have to put your win conditions in a dangerous situation in the hopes of winning within time. I won't deny Stax is a good deck, but I still don't know if it can stand up to a large tournement situation (seven rounds with Stax hardly seems like a good bet to me but what do I know). A large factor that noone has addressed yet (except to say don't lose G1) is that if you win Game 1 an aggro deck can still win G2 and G3 in time to beat the clock. If you lose G1, you will have a hard time pulling better then a draw before time runs out. Also in looking at the results in the Duel you addressed the lack of artifact hate in the top 8 decks but there were also many Pikula decks that didn't make top 8. This matchup seems to me to favor them heavily if they win the coin-flip, what is your take on this matchup?

Machinus

02-08-2006, 03:20 PM

I'm not really that concerned with Enchantress as a matchup, since it isn't very prevalent, and as you said can be shut down by cards like Trinisphere or Suppression Field. However, it has the capacity to generate large amounts of permanents early, which Stax can't deal with.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when say that Stax is "slow." It takes a long time to golfish, certainly. However, the rest of the format doesn't, so either you will get the lock, or you will lose. Once you get a lock down, your opponent should just be drawing and discarding. It isn't an issue of finding the kill, since you are just drawing, making a permanent, and saying go, and they shouldn't even be doing anything. Get the lock! If you can't get it in a few turns, you should be losing to good decks. If they aren't killing you, then it's their deck that is slow, not yours.

If you lose Game 1, you need to board strongly and mulligan well. If your opponent stalls, call the judge. Honestly, when Goblins beats Stax, it beats it fast, so you shouldn't be a game down with 15 minutes left. You will go first in game 2 if you lose game 1, which is a HUGE advantage against most decks.

The problem would most likely be them stalling in game 3, since they won't scoop. Just call a judge. If you have a lock out, your opponent can't do anything, so can't sit there on their turn and think for a long time. Just play smart, and you will draw the kill eventually.

Lego

02-08-2006, 03:54 PM

I haven't been playing Angel Stax too much in real life, but I have been able to borrow some components and play it in a couple of tournaments, and let me just say I have never had a round go to time when it wasn't intentional.

Game 1 no one usually stalls, so it's not a problem. You either get the lock down quickly and your opponent scoops, or you don't and you lose. After winning Game 1 I usually board out my Angels (assuming I don't need them for the life gain) and board in more lock components and things to stall the game. If I lose Game 1, I'll be playing first Game 2, and I board and mulligan accordingly, which is usually enough to give you the momentum to win Game 2. When you lose, it usually comes blindingly fast, so that gives plenty of time for Game 2 and 3.

All I can say is call the judge at the first sign that you may need to. If your opponent has no permanents in play and you have a Stack lock, they shouldn't be taking more than 10 seconds to draw, maybe play a land, and discard. If they are taking more than 10 seconds, call the judge. That means you're basically goldfishing, and if you can't Fish someone once you get the lock, play something else. This is a Lock deck, so you don't usually win by dealing 20 damage, you win by playing out your lock. As soon as your opponent is helpless, immediately start thinking about him stalling.

And lastly, if your opponent doesn't scoop Game 1 after you play the lock, draw it out as long as you can. I've never lost a Match after winning a Game 1 where my opponent didn't scoop. Ever.

Bane of the Living

02-08-2006, 04:32 PM

Id just like to add that I played against 2 Goblin decks and lost the first game to both. I still pulled it together and took them down both games without going to time.

dontbiteitholmes

02-08-2006, 04:50 PM

Machinus

02-08-2006, 04:56 PM

I'm still not convinced, I won't buy into this deck until it puts up real results in a tourney that is full of source heads and such. Also it looks as though either Tin-Street or Shattering Spree will be showing up a lot soon, this only makes your job harder.

Please read the thread next time:

I disagree. Spree is not a significant problem for Angel Stax.

Unless a deck can spend its turn destroying more than one artifact, it doesn't generate enough tempo to improve it's board position against stax. Stax will just make another land drop, cast another permanent, and get closer to a lock.

Chalice will counter the first spree, which means that a deck needs RRR to destroy two artifacts with chalice out.

Trinisphere will make the first spree copy cost 2R. Destroying two artifacts costs 1RR.

Spree is a sorcery. That means that Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Suppression Field, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port can prevent the red player from getting enough red mana to even do anything with spree.

Goblins will have a hard time using spree effectively against Angel Stax. At the moment, Gobins is the only deck with nearly enough red mana to even use the card.

Ultimately, Rack and Ruin remains a much stronger card against Stax in Legacy.

dontbiteitholmes

02-08-2006, 06:02 PM

Please read the thread next time:
I read that BTW, right now people don't run either of those cards, both of which destroy artifacts. This makes your job harder when people do. People will prolly run Shattering Spree over Rack & Ruin because it is better against non-Stax decks. Also 2 mana to destroy 1 artifact is not bad (under chalice) it starts to suck hard when Trinisphere enters the scene. You should prolly be more concerned with the fact that you will now you will have to use caution when going first after a loss against Gobs, which is already a critical spot to be in. Hands like *Mox Diamond, Plains, Ancient Tomb, Crucible, Smokestack, Chalice, Exalted Angel* which would normally be an autowin now must be played more carefully with Shattering Spree in the mix.

Machinus

02-08-2006, 06:27 PM

Goblins only runs around 6-8 actual mountains. With the effect of fetchlands, it is not likely that the deck will have enough red mana in time to do anything significant with Shattering Spree.

Rack and Ruin will be a significant problem if it becomes a popular board card.

Bane of the Living

02-08-2006, 06:29 PM

I really dont think Hooligan will be that big except in R/G survival. Note that he cant destroy an artifact in gobs if you have a warcheif out.

Shattering Spree yes, will be an issue. But unless we see alot of red heavy decks with Burning Wish, which there are none of right now.. Then it remains a sideboard card. Something you'll see games 2 and 3. Bring in Hanna's Custody. I really trumps them. Infact the amazingness of this card almost wants me to find more artifacts to play with and protect. Is there a replacement for Ghostly Prisons? I doubt it.. So nvm.

If you doubt the deck then try actually playing it in a tourny.

dontbiteitholmes

02-08-2006, 06:32 PM

Machinus

02-08-2006, 06:46 PM

Please explain what you would do with the hand I layed out in my last post under the circumstances discribed. It seems too good to pitch so do you rush the Crucible out and hope they don't have Spree in hand, drop Chalice, Mull to Trinisphere?

Hands like *Mox Diamond, Plains, Ancient Tomb, Crucible, Smokestack, Chalice, Exalted Angel* which would normally be an autowin now must be played more carefully with Shattering Spree in the mix.

Against goblins?

T1: Tomb, Chalice, go.

T2: Depends on what you draw, but probably Mox, Crucible, Plains, go. If you get another land, drop smokestack instead.

First turn chalice against Goblins is very good. If they can find RR and kill your chalice, that's fine. You get another land drop, they sac a permanent, and Angel is coming out reallllly soon.

Bane of the Living

02-08-2006, 07:25 PM

Machinus

02-08-2006, 07:49 PM

@Machinus
If you know your playing against Vial Gobs w/o bolt. Would you play turn 1 angel? I know chalice for 1 is the nuts but turn 2 unmorphed swingin angel is gg for the most part. At the most maybe I'd still play the turn 1 chalice, as long as I'm on the play. Its a turn slower but you knock out all their broken accelerants and the bolt if they play it. Ok stupid question.. Still, I've realized even wasting an early angel against gobs is ok because it stalls them alot trying to find a way to deal with it. If they can.. And again this is different depending if you have Chalice and they have bolts ect.

Bolts aren't a big deal usually. I wouldn't play an unmorphed Angel unless I had Chalice or Sphere down. It's too much of a risk against bolts. However, good goblin decks don't run bolt.

Generally it's not a good idea to try to race aggro. I would only try turbo-Angel against Control decks.

dontbiteitholmes

02-08-2006, 08:10 PM

Against goblins?

T1: Tomb, Chalice, go.

T2: Depends on what you draw, but probably Mox, Crucible, Plains, go. If you get another land, drop smokestack instead.

First turn chalice against Goblins is very good. If they can find RR and kill your chalice, that's fine. You get another land drop, they sac a permanent, and Angel is coming out reallllly soon.
What if they go turn 1 Waste your Land go? Or you get another land 2nd turn play Smokestack and they Shattering Spree + copy next turn killing Stax. I don't know who you expect is going to aim the Spree copy at your Chalice if Stax or an early Crucible is on the board but if they do they weren't going to win the game in the first place. This is what I'm saying, the fear of Shattering Spree changes your game and gives more options to a goblin player. Without fear of Spree you could easily Mox, Tomb, Crucible, go, Plains from GY, Stax, go and they are basically lost at that point. People will definitly be playing Shattering Spree in the side. (I say this because someone got a game loss this weekend for having one in his SB oops...) Also Burn and prolly RG Survival Advantage will play Spree because they need answers for Chalice and Needle respectively (and about 1/2 RG Survivals run Wishes).

Machinus

02-08-2006, 08:15 PM

What if they go turn 1 Waste your Land go? Or you get another land 2nd turn play Smokestack and they Shattering Spree + copy next turn killing Stax. I don't know who you expect is going to aim the Spree copy at your Chalice if Stax is on the board but if they do they weren't going to win the game in the first place. This is what I'm saying, the fear of Shattering Spree changes your game and gives more options to a goblin player. Without fear of Spree you could easily Mox, Tomb, Crucible, go, Plains from GY, Stax, go and they are basically lost at that point. People will definitly be playing Shattering Spree in the side. (I say this because someone got a game loss this weekend for having one in his SB oops...)

It depends on what you draw, but Stax will eventually draw into more mana. With a land, mox, and crucible in hand, you only need a couple of lands (or one tomb/city) to be functional again. With a Chalice out, Goblins needs lots of land to be functional as well, and you effectively run a lot more than they do, since there are no fetches, and your lands make more than one mana.

Honestly, I'm not concerned about Spree being in sideboards. Between Goblins needing enough red mana and the number of lock parts in Stax, is it not a concern. Rack and Ruin is card that is worth discussing though.

I'd be really happy if they took the Stax instead. Chalice for 1 counters 13 cards in the maindeck. They become completely dependent on lands for mana. Stax can easily generate more mana than Goblins, and it will win the game that way.

Bane of the Living

02-08-2006, 08:24 PM

Bolts aren't a big deal usually. I wouldn't play an unmorphed Angel unless I had Chalice or Sphere down. It's too much of a risk against bolts. However, good goblin decks don't run bolt.

I dont know about that one.. In local tournaments I'd slap someone not playing bolts. Theres alot of random decks at weekly tournaments. With Deadguy on the rise it sure helps to bolt a turn 1 hippy. I wont agrue tho, its another card that chalice will eat for breakfast.

Machinus

02-13-2006, 03:35 AM

How many optimal builds of decks run lightning bolt? Burn and Threshold do, but threshold doesn't even run four of them, and Chalice of the Void owns both of those decks really hard.

Chalice protects Angel from StP and other removal spells. Again, a really fast Angel can be good, but other than that, it is usually necessary to go for the lock before trying to make the kill. As far as I can tell, that is one of the most common mistakes people make with this deck.

Zilla

02-13-2006, 04:10 AM

I don't know what lists you've been looking at, but most UGr Thresh decks do in fact run a full 4 Bolts. Then you have Burn, obviously. There's also a pretty large influx of Zoo, Boros Deck Wins, and 3c Aggro running around, and they all run Bolt as a 4-of. [/offtopic]

PunkRocker1134

02-13-2006, 07:09 PM

I hate to be random but what about testing Spelltithe Enforcer, it seems liek it would be good with the whole stax idea. The only problems i see are its p/t and its CC. Other than that thoughts?

Anarky87

02-13-2006, 07:47 PM

It seems nice, but I think I'd rather be dropping Angels for the win. This is good, but only if you've already gained control of the board. And you'd want it out early to help with your board control, which it's casting cost kind of prohibits. In the late game it wouldn't matter to them that much, because you should have already locked the game down, and in that scenario, I'd want the Angel playing cleanup.

Machinus

02-13-2006, 08:01 PM

I hate to be random but what about testing Spelltithe Enforcer, it seems liek it would be good with the whole stax idea. The only problems i see are its p/t and its CC. Other than that thoughts?

1) It costs five mana. It is close to being playable, but this keeps it from being so.

2) It doesn't work well with Wrath of God, which is a primary component of the deck.

Citrus-God

02-13-2006, 08:45 PM

Yay! I feel happy I saw this on SCG (little off topic), there it is, right off of SCG...

// 24th Place at SCG D for D in Virginia...
// Mana 27
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
9 Plains

// Creatures 3
3 Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells 30
4 Armageddon
4 Wrath of God
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack

// Sideboard 15
3 Defense Grid
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Suppression Field
2 Sphere of Law
3 Disenchant

Looks janky, but somewhat looks solid. Karn looks sorta random, and geddons' seem like a decent fit since he has 4 CoW Mainboard. So What do you guys think?

Machinus

02-13-2006, 08:49 PM

I don't understand why those changes were made, but I do think they decreased the deck's viability at the tournament. Armageddon is weak against most of the top8, and Karn is just too clunky to be useful at all.

Suppression Field and Angel really are stronger cards in that environment.

Also, only three Smokestacks? What?

Citrus-God

02-13-2006, 10:01 PM

I dunno... Armageddon seems really random. Angels need to be in, I see Karn as a 1 of. I guess he took out a Smokestack because he already has 4 Geddons', but it still doesn't deal with creatures. The sideboard IMO looks bad. Suppression Field is more Mainboard material, having 2 in the SB is such a bad idea, at least replace them with Hanna's Custody. Needles shouldn't be in there, Chalice gets in the way.

Anusien

02-16-2006, 05:26 PM

He said originally the deck was an Armaggedon deck that got morphed into Stax-esque at the last moment. Also, he seemed fairly uncomfortable playing versus Threshold, from the one game I saw.

Lego

02-16-2006, 07:04 PM

That's a huge problem, because most of the reason to play this deck is that it crushes Thresh like 80-20

Machinus

02-16-2006, 07:06 PM

That's a huge problem, because most of the reason to play this deck is that it crushes Thresh like 80-20

Yeah, the changes make the deck really suffer against threshold. Field is really strong and should be 3-4 MD if you are running white.

Citrus-God

02-16-2006, 10:24 PM

Supression Field won me so many games. Screwed Thresh over...

Bane of the Living

02-17-2006, 08:59 AM

Agreed in full. I won so many games thanks to making vial and survivals shitty, mana screwing opponents playing 8 fetchlands. The auto win against timevault is nice too. I dont think I would ever cut Suppresion Field.

Anusien

02-17-2006, 12:24 PM

Nightmare

02-17-2006, 12:28 PM

It's not an autowin, because they can counter it. Also, how do you do against Stasis or Vault on the other side (assuming Rich Shay's build of Time Vault, since it's the best Time Vault combo deck I've seen)? I haven't done a lot of testing, but it seems like it's fairly easy to get locked under your own Tangle Wires, and you can't exactly Chalice or 3Sphere the combo away.How would you get locked under your own Wires? It's easy to lock your opponent with Wire + Vault, but if the Vault is on the other side, you still remove counters.

Bane of the Living

02-17-2006, 12:34 PM

I dont know that build buy Rich Shay's name. But your average flamevault deck w stasis isnt bad. It hurts them alot to use stasis tricks when you have a tangle wire in play, they usually cant keep stasis up for more than a turn. If you have 3sphere in play then they cant do much each turn, chalice for one kills Chain of Vapor if they play it. Chalice for 2 after that will win the game.

They cant win with a Suppresion field out since skipping their turn will now cost 2 mana. No flaming me to death. But the best card against any flame vault deck? Smokestack. Go ahead take another turn. If they skip a turn to untap timewalk you ramp your counters and shake hands. Feel free to wipe the board with a Smokestack. You'll recover much faster than them.

I love that matchup.

Koby

02-17-2006, 01:55 PM

Against an activate Time Vault (assuming no Suppression Field in the scenario you just presented), you won't get far by ramping Smokestack soot counters. They will skip a turn, which means you get two. You increase soot counters, say to 2. Now they simply skip another turn and you must sacrifice 2 permaneants instead of one. Repeat ad infinitum. Even if you get Supression Field out, they can just skip say 2 turns while SF is on the stack. Now you have keep Smokestack around for an extra 3 turns to screw them over. Furthermore, if you ever sacrifice Suppression Field in those turns, they just lock you down under your own Smokestack again.

Smokestack is not the answer to Time Vault in FFStax. Pithing Needle and Suppression Field are both much better and prefered.

Bane of the Living

02-17-2006, 02:30 PM

Anusien

02-17-2006, 02:42 PM

Well ruckus most good flamevault players wont play their Timevault before at least being able to win the next turn, incase I have a disenchant. Seeing as to how they only run 8-10 nonland permanents yes Smokestack does spell the end of them. A turn 2 Smokestack will probably end you the game. Even with Timevault out, theyll need to skip a turn to get a turn. When they give me another turn, I sac my perm to smokestack (very easy) and then I play a Chalice or Tangle Wire, or Suppresion Field. The lock pieces keep adding. They still need to take those extra turns, as long as I have crucible I can put stax at 2. Every card in the deck is a perm except Wrath of God. When your turn comes around you'll regret your turn antics. I would play this match up allll day if I could. It only gets better when I side out Ghostly Prison and Wraths for real cards.
Actually, if I were playing the deck, I'd throw out turn 2 Time Vault all day and sit back on counters. You only have Suppresion Field, Smokestack, Disenchant and possibly Trinisphere that I need to counter, and I can severly outdraw you. I can keep up with you at Smokestack for 1 because I draw draw, and you'll run out of permanants first, and if you ramp it, you'll get hit first. Hell, if you ramp it and play Suppresion Field, I'll skip two or three turns in response, depending on board state, to make you get hurt by it more. When you're out of cards, then I'll go looking for a way to kill you.

Zilla

02-17-2006, 02:46 PM

I dont know that build buy Rich Shay's name.
Quad Glacier, a.k.a. FlameVault Stasis (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2598&highlight=quad+glacier).

Machinus

02-17-2006, 08:22 PM

Actually, if I were playing the deck, I'd throw out turn 2 Time Vault all day and sit back on counters. You only have Suppresion Field, Smokestack, Disenchant and possibly Trinisphere that I need to counter, and I can severly outdraw you. I can keep up with you at Smokestack for 1 because I draw draw, and you'll run out of permanants first, and if you ramp it, you'll get hit first. Hell, if you ramp it and play Suppresion Field, I'll skip two or three turns in response, depending on board state, to make you get hurt by it more. When you're out of cards, then I'll go looking for a way to kill you.

The Flame Vault vs Angel Stax matchup is good for Angel Stax. Angel Stax is able to disrupt the FV mana base with Suppression Field and Wasteland, while running Plains which can't be targeted. Field also basically shuts down Vault, which prevents them from comboing off. Time Vault isn't a big problem to begin with, since you can easily handle opposing Smokestacks with your higher permanent count, and Crucible. Letting Angel Stax take extra turns is very dangerous, and Time Vault loses a lot of it's potential strength in such a symmetrical matchup.

The die roll is pretty important in this matchup. Without early game pressure or disruption, Angel Stax can develop a strong board position, and lock up the game.

BLODORN

02-17-2006, 11:20 PM

Citrus-God

02-17-2006, 11:31 PM

LrtL usually abuses it's lands with activated abilities, so Field does do something. Besides, usually Field is Stax bait.

Machinus

02-17-2006, 11:33 PM

I'm sure this was mentioned somwhere on the 7 pages, I havn't read them all yet. While reading your SCG article i noticed you said Suppression Field was good against LftL because it slowed dredge. This is incorrect, dredge is not an activated ability and is not affected by the Field. Also, I'm not sure what your current list is, but isn't running 4 Suppression Fields next to 4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports nonsynergetic, since they would cost 2 and 3 mana to use thier abilities respectivly.

I'm quite aware of the mistake. Field makes all cycling costs 2 more, so it does significant damage against decks that want to use cycling lands and LftL. Mentioning dredge there was a technical mistake on my part.

Regarding the lands - I am also aware that it makes them cost more. However, it is perfectly fine to have them in the deck together. Once you get field out, you don't have to use their abilities, but instead can just use them for mana. And when you don't have Field out, they help to get the deck into a stronger position, so it all works out.

Bane of the Living

02-18-2006, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the linkage zilla.

23 lands (9 fetchlands) Hellz yea Supression Field!
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
10 Island
2 Mountain

37 spells
3 Chrome Mox (Go card advantage against Smokestack)
3 Intuition
3 Burning Wish (more free turns for stax?)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (only counterspell)
4 Time Vault
3 Flame Fusillade
4 Stasis
3 Chain of Vapor (only removal 1cc)
3 Deep Analysis
3 Impulse

What do you side in against Stax?

SB: 1 Flame Fusillade
SB: 1 Deep Analysis
SB: 1 Reconstruction
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Echoing Ruin

NOTHING!!

Here is quad lazer. Look at the removal.. 3 Chain of Vapor. You need chain to bounce Supression Field or a Burning Wish. I would immediatly play a Chalice for 2, that's my priority. Then for 1 to stop Chain of Vapor. This is quite possible, I play Enlightened Tutor. Your wish targets arent that great anyways. You get no wish targets if I have chalice, but even if I dont, you get echoing ruin, you kill one artifact. Or you get Meltdown. The worst I've been 'melted down' was for 3. Thanks to Smokestack, Wasteland, Rishadin Port, and Tangle Wire. Meltdown for 3, if you can pull it off, leaves Smokestack and Supression Field the best cards against you.

You only have 4 counterspells in the whole deck. It's doubtful you can stop a turn 1-2 Chalice, Trinisphere, Supression Field, or Smokestack. Last time I played against this deck my opponent responded to a Smokestack by Intuitioning for 3 Forces. Go card advantage. Next turn I played a Supression Field for the win. I actually take out 3/4 Exalted Angels for game 2. More lock pieces, Pithing Needles, and Disenchant, are much better.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not flaming Flamevault. Im just saying, this is a bad matchup for you. If you dont think so just try it yourself and find out.

Anusien

02-18-2006, 12:53 PM

First of, I like that you criticize the Shay list for being too slow, but then you turn around talk about Enlightened Tutoring for Chalice of the Void.

So you're simultaneously going to play Chalice of the Void at 2 (which counters Chalice for 1, by the way), Suppresion Field and Smokestack all on turn 1? No. You're going to try to find one of your Suppression Fields on turn 1, and I might counter it. I'm gonna play Time Vault and Wish for Shattering Spree (both artifact hate slots are going to be Shattering Sprees, I think that's clear). Then what are you going to do? Play into it and over-extend? Then I'm going to setup the combo, intuition into CoV and win.
Also, I'm going to board out a Stasis for a Shattering Spree, so I have one main.

By the way, I'm going to let jank like Trinisphere resolve. If I'm established enough, I'm probably going to let Suppression Field resolve. If I get burning Wish->Shattering Spree, I'll let as many artifacts as I want resolve and just wreck your board afterwards. It's like Stax versus Landstill, where they go turn 4 Disk with Force to stop Disenchant/Echoing Ruin.

I'm doing some testing now, and it's about as bad as it seemed. I had Angel Stax go turn 1 3Sphere, then pull Crucible, Tangle Wire and Angel and Wasteland off the top and lose. And then there's the time where Angel Stax got locked out by Vault + 3Sphere because 3 Angels can only beat for 12.

And Angel Stax v Flame Vault Stax is hardly a relevant matchup, but I've never lost it, because Time Vault is that good, and because Flame Vault Stax has less dead cards (Angels are mostly dead since they don't affect the board, Wraths are dead).

Machinus

02-18-2006, 01:12 PM

I think that Shay's list is actually pretty good, but it's a control list, so Angel Stax has some tactical advantages going into it.

Regarding the FV matchup, Field and Tangle Wire are just excellent cards that make the game really hard for FV to win. There aren't many people who have played Angel Stax to begin with, so I'm sure there are very few who know to play the deck properly. Since you've never played FV in a tournament, I know your experience comes from playtesting, and it's hard to draw significant conclusions just from that.

Citrus-God

02-19-2006, 12:30 AM

Anusien... If you think Stasis Flame Vault Stax is so good, why not play a game or 2 against our beloved Machinus? I mean you both did some pretty heavy testing, I just wanna see who will win.

Bane of the Living

02-19-2006, 12:31 AM

@Anusien

I know both decks pretty well, having a team member playing a flame vault deck. I took Shay's very list that he played, and I pointed out very key weakness you have in this match up. Im not tryin to be a dick. Im just giving examples oh how half the cards in my deck are..

b-o-m-b-s
\ /
/ \
| |
\ /

Your cards are just meh, cause most of them are digging for your combo. Most of my deck will just stop it from happening.

If you want to play the match to get first hand exp I have Apprentice. Im sure Machinus would be glad to play you as well. I would say this would go about 70-30 me preboard, 80-20 post.

Citrus-God

02-19-2006, 01:22 AM

You may win against Vial Goblins, but you will never, ever win against White Gro. I have played many games against Time Vault Stasis Stax, and when a FV Stasis Stax player is sitting right across from a strong minded Gro player, he will shove 2 Mages down calling Burning Wish and Stasis. Screw Propaganda and Smokestack, their not gonna do crap. Smokestack, let me point out, will be counter'd first thing. CoW is meh... I got my basics out pretty quickly. Engineered Explosives are like god to me as well as Geddon! Now we know you'll side in you Clasms', Hell, you'll even side in Buring Wish for Clasms' since Mage is going to go nuts calling them when they come down. Well, we have Hydroblasts (If anybody besides me runs them).

Zilla

02-19-2006, 03:05 PM

Inflammatory comments removed. Keep it civil, people. - Zilla

Anusien

02-20-2006, 04:26 PM

Discussion of Flame Vault Stax has its own thread. Keep the discussion to Angel Stax please.

There's no way Shay Vault v Angel Stax is 70-30 main. I just played it, and if that's the win %, then I just pulled off something that only happens 9% of the time. Granted, I only tested two games, but...

Flame Vault Stax v Angel Stax is completely irrelevant. Once both decks get more than maybe 1 player per tournament, I really don't think it bears discussion.

The real question is how to improve the Goblins matchup. Even if it's favorable, it's barely favorable, and you still have difficulty with the Goblins nut draw.
Question: What do you board out for Chalices on the draw? I've found personally that Chalice on the draw sucks because you only ever want to drop it at one, and if they have a one-drop they'll play it early, and you hardly gain any advantage in dropping them later. Is that where the Tabernacle and that sort of idea comes in.

Also, what are your outs versus BW Pikula? I don't think most lists I've seen have Sacred Ground or the 4th Crucible in the board, which makes it seem like it would be very easy for Pikula to gain a quick advantage. I've found that their discard can be incredibly potent. It seems like, especially on the draw that you don't backup on your strong plays; you're never going to draw two Crucibles and one of them is going to get Duressed or Vindicated away.

Bane of the Living

02-21-2006, 12:28 AM

In my opinion Trinisphere is the best card against them. Ive actually upped my count to 4. They have so many cheap spells since theyre a tempo deck, things like Dark Ritual and Duress really start to suck. The ld can be tough but not impossible, actually I do play Sacred Ground in my sideboard. Its a necessary evil.

I dont think Chalice is ever bad, even on the draw. Ill still play CotV for 1 anyways. Now no more bolts/stp/lackey/fanatic/vial from my goblin opponent. If you can survive the early rushes with wrath and prisons, chalice will start to shine as they draw more dead cards.

fearphage

02-21-2006, 01:37 PM

I agree that chalice for 1 is a good play even on the draw. It will stop my opponent from casting his 2nd savannah lion, brainstorm, duress, therapy, dark rit, etc. Chalice for 1 is a must against threshold. It cuts their creature count from around 14 to about 10-11. Then if you can somehow manage to chalice for 2 its damn near game over as they have 2-3 win conditions remaining. This could easily change if they don't find the possible 0-2 engineered explosives in the deck. I never side out chalice. It is a great first play. It is a good play even later in the game if you find alot of there spells cost 1.

Anusien

02-21-2006, 06:39 PM

emidln

02-22-2006, 12:52 AM

In my opinion Trinisphere is the best card against them. Ive actually upped my count to 4. They have so many cheap spells since theyre a tempo deck, things like Dark Ritual and Duress really start to suck. The ld can be tough but not impossible, actually I do play Sacred Ground in my sideboard. Its a necessary evil.

Trinisphere is a card you want to side out in the BW Confidant Matchup. Seriously. Getting locked under your own Trinisphere is really bad. It also makes boarding in Sacred Grounds really easy.

Citrus-God

02-22-2006, 02:15 AM

Usually I just side out 2 Chalices, 1 3Sphere, 1 Mox Diamond, and 1 Field against them for 2 SoL, 1 Tabernacle, and 2 Custodies. It seems to do so fine for me. Besides, if your smart, you can beat Goblins. It's all about tempo against them. Also Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field are also powerful cards in those match ups. To tell the truth, those changes made this deck more consistent against Goblins.

Anusien

02-22-2006, 02:32 AM

I'm confident that against Goblins, if your boarding plan doesn't change based on who is on the play, you're playing it wrong. On the draw, no question, Trinispheres come out immediately, and Chalices are suspect. Hell, on the play Trinispheres are suspect anyway.

I like that you say it's all about Tempo, Suppresion Field, and Ghostly Prison, then you board out a Mox and a Field, but leave in extra 3Spheres. I know originally Menendian (even in a different Stax deck, the logic still applies) wanted to keep in Trinispheres because the thought of turn 1 3Sphering them is so powerful. However, it's a 4-card combo whose suck rises exponentially on the draw.

Custody seems weak in the board. If they were Mono-R, I'd leave Custody in the board and want to have extra Tabernacles to board in instead.

Citrus-God

02-22-2006, 02:33 AM

Yes, I know Chalice for 1 is a good card. I specifically noted that Chalice for 1 on the draw against goblins is bad. I've done some testing, and if Chalice for 1 comes on the draw they ignore it. They've either got Vial/Lackey and played it already or it's not relevant. That's why I'd board out Chalice on the draw versus Goblins. I'd also strongly consider boarding out some number of Trinispheres against them, especially on the draw where they can drop a turn 1 Lackey/Vial and hose you.

In definitely comes 1 Tabernacle, 2 Sphere of Law for 3 Trinisphere. On the draw, I'd board out 2 Chalice for 2 Hannah's Custody and plan on setting it for 2 to cut off hasty Piledrivers as part of an alpha strike because the majority of the time Vial will pass 2 to land at 3/4.
Nice strategy. I guess all 3 3SPheres could go out just to get some protection. Nice Chalice setting, never did that much, I usually set it at 3 (No seriously, I all I had in play at the time was CoW), and pretty much won from there. I never played against Gobs much now, just Gro...

Yeah, we all usually side Chalices out on the draw, Lackey goes nuts, and yeah, if they throw down Siege Gang or Kiki, that would suck....

Bane of the Living

02-22-2006, 07:05 PM

Custody seems weak in the board. If they were Mono-R, I'd leave Custody in the board and want to have extra Tabernacles to board in instead.

I bring in Hanna's Custody against anything with mountains, and usually when I see Forests as well. Custody is also the only thing that stops Shattering Spree and crazy cards like Artifact Mutation, which I actually saw played against me the other night.

Anusien

02-23-2006, 05:09 PM

Nice strategy. I guess all 3 3SPheres could go out just to get some protection. Nice Chalice setting, never did that much, I usually set it at 3 (No seriously, I all I had in play at the time was CoW), and pretty much won from there. I never played against Gobs much now, just Gro...

Yeah, we all usually side Chalices out on the draw, Lackey goes nuts, and yeah, if they throw down Siege Gang or Kiki, that would suck....
I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic.
So they throw down Lackey/Vial, and you're going to set Chalice at 3? That costs 6 mana and turns off Crucible, Tangle Wire (and maybe Angel).
If you usually side out Chalices on the draw, why didn't you say that? Honestly, they can play through 3Sphere as well if not better than you.

Citrus-God

02-23-2006, 10:02 PM

No I ws not being sarcastic, I was serious. Anyway when I played that Chalice I also had another Chalice sat at 1.

You shut down most of their deck with Chalice at three. I also mentioned that it's usually when CoWs in play. To tell the truth, 3Sphere can still shut down Warcheif, it does slow some things down.

4 Goblin Warcheif
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incenerator
1~2 Goblin Shrapshooter.

I dunno, like I said, I'm weird...

Bane of the Living

02-24-2006, 12:06 AM

Umm setting a chalice for 3 is bad mmkayy??

You have like 15 3cc spells in your deck at least. Thats probably the bad choice. I would drop for 2 at least, cause it stops piledriver if you have no ghostly prison. And most gob players arent willing to keep their vial at 2.

Citrus-God

02-24-2006, 12:33 AM

ehh... I didn't really care at the time, I was insanely tired, and he still conceded...

Bane of the Living

03-19-2006, 10:44 PM

Welly welly well.

I played the deck this weekend heres the report.

Round 1 G/U Thresh/Madness
Things looked good when he plays turn one mental note. I Chalice for 1 and beat him. Game 2 he counters a turn 3 Smokestack with a Daze. I forgot to play my land for the turn to avoid Daze. My fault. Game goes on and I have him at 4 lands with Supression Field out. He has Scepter with Counterspell on it. I port a land then go to play Morphed Angel. He claims he floated the mana, and he somehow convinced me?? SHIT FUCK
Game 3 I mull to 4 and lose.

Round 2 Black Tendrils Aggro
This is a funky monoblack tendrils deck. I see swamp and expect pox shit, I play turn one Trinisphere, he concedes a couple turns later.
Games 2 and 3 I had to mulligan low. He duressed my Nullrod and killed me with the H Spector.

0-2 DROP
Very disappointed.

Machinus

03-20-2006, 10:22 PM

Usually Threshold and Combo are easy matchups for Stax.

Has anyone seen any other Stax reports?

Kosmon

03-21-2006, 03:30 AM

Usually Threshold and Combo are easy matchups for Stax.

Yeah, but a few play mistakes combined with some unlucky draws/mulligans will easily give the best decks a losing record. I appreciate bane for posting an honest report though - tournies gone wrong are always more interesting and insightful to read than ones where everything goes right. Of course we all know what happens when the deck works, that's why we are playing it! Let's hear about what happens when it doesn't work, and why it failed.

Has anyone seen any other Stax reports?

I'd like to hear some more reports as well. I just traded for most of the cards I needed to complete the deck so hopefully I'll get to play in some tournies myself. The tricky part will be finding regular ones - anyone know of any in Southern Cal around the Los Angeles area?

Rambo

03-21-2006, 09:35 PM

I would play in tourneys if I could get F**king mox diamonds! :mad:
Also I hate the synergy between port and suppresion field! Instead of a couple ports I am running factories, as after you get a lock you can sac the field and beat with the factories.
It also helps hold off lackeys and such if you are on the play.

Bane of the Living

03-22-2006, 05:08 PM

I know its quite forsaken to remove the best elements of this deck.. Ghostly Prison is what Im thinking here. But we really need card draw. I know Grafted Skullcap isnt a lock piece, but combined with Ensnaring Bridge it gives us a draw engine, and protection only the likes of Moat will give. Prisons could come out for Bridges, but Im not sure where to make room for the Skullcaps. This is an idea SillyMetalGAT gave me, Im not sure how it would do but it sounds worth trying right?

Another route Im dying to take this deck is to remove Suppresion Field and Crucible for Life from the Loam and Solitary Confinement. I would add Windswept Heath for deckthinning with Loam, and cycling lands would add the draw engine that was missing from the deck. Confinement easily replaces Ghostly Prison, and is much better against combo, burn, and rifter. LftL can be better than Crucible since if countered it can be dredged. Helping Smokestack be more sufficient.

Id like to try one of these out. LftL sounds the best but adding fetchlands means Suppresion Field needs to go. This in turn means Wasteland, Port, and Mishras Factory get much better since their activations stay cheap. What do you guys think?

On another note.. The thresh deck I played against was only running 2 fetchlands. So my Suppression Fields were garbage against him.

Kosmon

03-22-2006, 09:05 PM

Bane of the Living

03-22-2006, 09:28 PM

The problem with Bottled Cloister is if it gets destroyed you lose your entire hand, however big it was.

Part of adding LftL to the deck would be making an attempt at card draw. Taking out Crucible for LftL is close to justified since the two do almost the same job in the deck. What you get out of it is an 'uncounterable' crucible effect. Too often my Crucible gets countered or destroyed. Loam knows no fear of removal.

Since Loam puts the cards into hand you can play late game Mox Diamonds that were sitting in your hand. Adding the three lands to your hand also has its advantages against discard since the lands in hand will buffer Hymn to Tourach and Specter.

The downside is your least opt to play CotV for 2.

Adding fetchlands with LftL also gives you deck thinning, along with cycling lands to uncounterably draw cards eot every turn. That in itself is what the deck needed the most.

Adding Confinement from there just seemed obvious. Altho the deck seems to have a good match against combo we have 8 completly dead cards against them. Wrath and Ghostly Prison. Confinement over Prison puts us at only 4 dead cards in the deck. Its also AMAZING against combo. In some games that I stall out I get killed by a creature or 2 because my opponent pays 2-4 a turn to attack. Confinement just says fuck off and go to game 2. LftL is more than enough to keep Confinment up and running and still works as the crucible effect.

Lastly we now have the all powerful green for our sideboard.

On paper these changes definitly look like improvement. Ill try and get around to testing.

Rambo

03-22-2006, 09:41 PM

Can you give us a list? If you are considering adding green, you might want to add exploration as it is better with loam than with crucible. Only problem is chalice for 2, like you said. (I usually set chalice for two considering my strange meta). But solitary confinement looks brilliant, especcially with bottled cloister of skullcap. Just my 2 cents

Obfuscate Freely

03-22-2006, 09:48 PM

The problem with Bottled Cloister is if it gets destroyed you lose your entire hand, however big it was.
Grafted Skullcap is similar, only instead of Mind Twisting you if the opponent removes it, Skullcap just nukes your hand as a trigger at the end of every turn. Cloister is strictly better.

Part of adding LftL to the deck would be making an attempt at card draw. Taking out Crucible for LftL is close to justified since the two do almost the same job in the deck. What you get out of it is an 'uncounterable' crucible effect. Too often my Crucible gets countered or destroyed. Loam knows no fear of removal.
The problem I see with LftL is that it has an extreme lack of synergy in a deck that tries to make it more difficult to play spells. LftL interacts poorly with Trinisphere, Chalice, and Tangle Wire, and doesn't play nearly as nicely with Smokestack as Crucible does. You're cutting a permanent with a lasting effect for a spell that you have to play repeatedly to get the same effect, and that seems to be a very poor trade for Stax.

Now, if adding LftL actually lets you run Confinement (I'm skeptical, as that card needs a considerably large support structure), you might be on your way to outweighing LftL's drawbacks and improving the deck. Testing will tell, I guess.

Lego

03-23-2006, 03:05 AM

The difference between Loam and Crucible is that you actually have to play the Loam. That means at crucial times in the late game (like when you need a Wasteland immediately) it can be countered, and that also means that you can never go to zero lands. Often I have ramped up a Smokestack to take care of my opponent's permanents, getting rid of my lands knowing that I will always be able to replay them, and then taking out the Smokestack when I didn't need it anymore. You can't do this as efficiently with Loam, as you always need two lands in play.

Also, as stated above, horrible synergy with Trinisphere and Chalice.

Machinus

03-23-2006, 06:18 PM

Confinement is a totally different deck. Stax doesn't have the time or the flexibility to try to assemble combos together. LftL and Confinement is just another set of cards that make the deck worse when they aren't combined successfully.

Crucible is not an option for cutting anyway.

Citrus-God

03-24-2006, 12:12 AM

This is how Crucible played a part in my life. It made me masturbate while I was playing Stax and Turboland. It's better than Loam because it ensured that you get that Land that turn, and you don't pay mana for it. Crucible also gave me the pleasure to make a 1st turn Lotus, CoW, and Strip Mine. It also made me win on turn 16 with Turboland...

Bottled Cloister is very strong, and I see a spot in this deck. I don't see Ghostly Prison going, but instead Suppression Fields... ehh... yeah, or otherwise we don't run them at all.

Bane of the Living

03-24-2006, 12:21 PM

Nightmare

03-24-2006, 02:05 PM

Citrus-God

03-24-2006, 04:51 PM

Let me boldly ask..

Is anyone besides me taking this pile to tournaments? I dont see anyone else giving reports. Playing the deck for fun and playing it for tournament improvements are different things. At least Im trying to work in the right direction, even if my ideas suck.

Yeah, I'm only playing this casual. I have the deck done, but I'm not taking it to tournaments, but instead I play weird decks me and the team I'm in designed. I tested this deck a lot versus Goblins, and got quite savage results. Tested versus NQG White with the old school version, and thought the results were savage. This deck's only loss was with a mirror I had with a friend who wanted a long and boring game...

Mr. Nightmare; Back when the 1st Angel Stax thread started, I liked your list a lot, but looked similair to that one guy's with Eternal Dragon. I seriously thought there was something that was seriously being inproved with the deck. And as a request, may you please tell us what you played against in Philly? I'm very curious to know...

Nightmare

03-24-2006, 05:19 PM

Mr. Nightmare; Back when the 1st Angel Stax thread started, I liked your list a lot, but looked similair to that one guy's with Eternal Dragon. I seriously thought there was something that was seriously being inproved with the deck. And as a request, may you please tell us what you played against in Philly? I'm very curious to know...
My GP Philly Tournament Report (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54461&postcount=132)

Citrus-God

03-24-2006, 09:32 PM

The Hikori's are hot. How could you not get top 8? Dude, that is like the most savage SB, and Maindeck I have ever seen. It's weird how you lose against bad decks, but good decks are like your most favorable match up. Weird...

Thanks for the report, you just gave me an idea. I'm gonna test Hikori...

Bane of the Living

03-24-2006, 09:49 PM

Why did you play Hokori over Winter Orb? Hokori dies to creature removal and your own wraths. Not to mention he's another 2WW spell. Orb seems infinitly better here.

Nightmare

03-24-2006, 10:17 PM

Why did you play Hokori over Winter Orb? Hokori dies to creature removal and your own wraths. Not to mention he's another 2WW spell. Orb seems infinitly better here.I wanted a bigger threat base. It didn't really make that much difference in the long run though.

Citrus-God

03-24-2006, 11:11 PM

I agree, it wouldn't change very much in the long run...

Kosmon

04-02-2006, 07:21 PM

I've done some testing and I can't say that this deck is very good. Sure it can get god draws of turn 1 chalice, turn 2 trinisphere that are usually enough to lock up any game. But in over half my matches, I'll get a soft lock going with trinisphere / multiple tanglewires, or suppression field / ghostly prison / crucible / wasteland etc you name it... and I can't draw an angel for the life of me to seal the deal. I'll eventually just draw crap for enough turns that my opponent can recover and beat me to death, swinging with 1 creature at a time.

The only time that not drawing an angel is an issue is when I have the hard lock of smokestack + crucible, which again is less than half of the games I play. I would consider adding a 4th angel, but opening hands that contain 2+ angels are almost automulligans... so it's a pretty hard decision. Has anyone else had trouble finishing/winning games where you get an early soft lock? I really wish this deck had some sort of tutoring (enlightened tutor)? to search up the lock pieces I need. I hate, hate drawing 1 card a turn, waiting for that smokestack and never getting it. Wrath of god has been rather underwhelming for me and I'd probably rather have enlightened tutor in it's place to search up another prison or smokestack (or maybe a singleton ensnaring bridge or bottled cloister)... What do you guys think?

I tested quite a few games vs BW Pikula and I think I won 2 out of every 10... pretty abysmal. The matchup vs goblins was significantly better but I don't think it was above 50-50.

Citrus-God

04-02-2006, 09:45 PM

If your sitting, and your going all like, "Wheres my Angels?" Then your playing the deck wrong. But if you like, take one or two Suppression Fields out for win conditions.

Versus Homebrew, their the beatdown if they go 1st. If you go 1st, then your the beatdown.

Goblins aren't that easy to beat if you play your deck right; look at Bane's report; he usually ends up playing like 3 Goblin decks, and still win 4 to 0 in swiss. Yeah, his that awesome. Dont forget you have like 5 things to board in against them.

This deck is very hard to play, and I know you realize that. I mean, if you want to understand the deck more, start playing Cron Stax for vintage. I'm serious. Those deck's drawing capacity are near the same. Sure Cron Stax has 4 Tutors and 1 Ancestral Recall, but still, nearly all the cards in there are permenent. Also, look into Uba Stax, since it's a bit easier to play; all the cards in there except Wheel of Fortune are permenents.

Also, if you dont like it, just play Angel 5/3. That deck is similair to Stax, except instead Smokestacks, you get clocks, like Angels and Juggernauts. Red Deck Wins is also like 5/3 believe it or not; Mike Flore is a very good deckbuilder, so the mana denial and clock can seriously do a lot of damage. So yeah, 5/3 is exactly the same thing.

Lego

04-02-2006, 11:19 PM

I actually like 5/3 better than Angel Stax right now. It doesn't create a hard lock, but it wins so quickly that it doesn't matter. I really haven't found any matchups that get worse by playing 5/3, and a lot of them get better. What advantages does Angel Stax realistically have over 5/3?

Citrus-God

04-03-2006, 02:49 AM

Actually, I'll just talk about the pros and cons of Angel 5/3 instead. But yeah, Angel Stax is still a strong deck, but it only seems to be good to me in a Control and Combo heavy field. I mean, aggro sorta hurts the deck if they're opponents' actually know how to deal with the deck.

Pros:
Better removal
Stronger Clocks
Less Vaunerable to aggro decks of both kinds. (Goblin and Burn)
You can cast SoFI within 2 turns, equiped to a War Beast.
It actually has a better game versus Gro, even if they go 1st.
Armageddon is a strong tempo card, and will forever be in this deck.
Stronger SB options.
You can splash Red in for Wildfire if you want.
Consistent Draw Engine in the form of SoFI.
Actually wins versus Elves...

Cons:
Like Stax, at times, it cant topdeck like a champ.
Rolls over and dies to Serenity. (Yeah, Stax does the same...)
Hard to shift positions of the game. (I'm serious, Smokestack is still awesome.)
Cant deal with a Decree for an asston unless it has Jitte and SoFI to help out.
Phyrexian War Beast should die sometimes, because sacing one land hurts.
Juggernaut cant block...
Masticore wants you in a lock like a bad cursed scroll.
I wish I had room for Solemn Simulacrum...
Tangle Wire sucks in here.
More aggressive mulligans. I find my mana producers and mana curve to be off a lot.

But if you must know why I'm playing Angel Stax over 5/3, is simple. A more lethel and efficient "Time Walk." It's like Vial and it's synthetic mana, but instead, tempo advantage. This deck is like Pox but with mana denial; it will force both players in a bad position, but you are the only player who is playing around it 80% of the time. Now the role of the mana denial here is simple; to stall for time. But a Tangle Wire versus Control is pretty much a 4 Turn Time Walk that slowly runs out. Smokestack is just a hard lock to complement with the mana denial. So the conclusion why I like Angel Stax more is because... well, I dont mean to sound retarded but, I really dont know why I'm playing Angel Stax over 5/3. I see them both as the same deck, but with a different clock, and gameplan. The way it still wants to win remains the same, as their both usually the beatdown in most games. If I were to mix the two decks together, it would make RDW: I mean, the clock is faster, and it has some Time Walks to back it up... But to tell the truth, I think 5/3 would win versus Stax, as it does play around everything as well...

Actually, yeah... You just said it. It didn't matter because the hardlock is equavilent to the game that's being won. Only difference are the number of win conditions, and the time that's being established during each round in the tournament.

Kosmon

04-03-2006, 05:12 AM

Do you have an example list for 5/3?

Lego

04-03-2006, 12:51 PM

Masticore wants you in a lock like a bad cursed scroll.

Masticore? I've never seen him in the deck.

@Kosmon: Go check out the thread. It's a Roopey deck, and it's quite a lot of fun to play. We probably shouldn't be discussing it here, though I don't know all the rules on this stuff:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3070

Machinus

04-03-2006, 02:52 PM

Here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27668.0) is a good one.

Citrus-God

04-05-2006, 12:21 AM

Heres my list...

// Mana 27
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
5 Plains

// Creatures 14
2 Masticore
4 Exalted Angel
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Juggernaut

// Spells 19
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Armageddon

// Sideboard 15
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Armageddon
2 Hanna's Custody
4 Disenchant
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Defense Grid

ehh... I'm still testing this deck, so ehh... But I admit, Roop is a very good and unique deckbuilder.

Bane of the Living

04-05-2006, 05:00 PM

Now he just needs to win some top 8's! BAM.

Does anyone plan on taking Stax to Syracuse?

Citrus-God

04-06-2006, 01:03 AM

Bane you should go to 'Cuse with Angel Stax, it seems really within your playing style. I would go to 'Cuse, but I live in the friggin' Midwest, otherwise I would be there playing between some stupid Red Deck Wins variant/Zoo/RG Beatz or Angel Stax.

Bane of the Living

04-10-2006, 05:16 PM

I bombed out at 51st place with Diddle Dal (r/g/b lftl) I was definitly thinking of playing Stax last minute. Damn..

Has anyone else experimented with new Stax choices? I didnt get around to trying Grafted Skullcap and Ensnaring Bridge yet.

Citrus-God

04-11-2006, 02:51 AM

No, but I've been playing this...

// WR Wildfire Angel Stax
// Mana 27
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plateau
4 Sacred Foundry

// Creatures 4
4 Exalted Angel

// Spells 30
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God
4 Tangle Wire/Powder Keg
4 Wildfire
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard 15
2 Hanna's Custody
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sphere of Law
4 Pyroclasm
4 Disenchant

Yup... I mix of Wilfire Stax with Angel Stax. Better Goblin Match Up, and better Gro Match Up. Adding Wildfire in was just for a casual game, abd turned out to be insane.

Pyroclasms in the board made games shorter for Goblins. 12 Board Sweepers are tech. And if your playing against Control, then 4 Board Sweepers are dead, 4 are ready to do some lockage.

Bane of the Living

04-12-2006, 04:45 PM

Looks good, but does why pull Ports? It seems they would compliment the Wildfires even more.

Citrus-God

04-13-2006, 10:45 PM

mana screw, and the loss of a constant engine with Fetchlands. If you want Ports, take out 1 City of Traitors and 3 Sacred Foundries. Otherwise the fetchlands. I havent really tested ports yet, so I wont judge...

Bane of the Living

04-21-2006, 06:40 PM

Got around to trying Wildfire.

Thresh
Too slow so it clogs the hand in the early game where every turn you need a lock piece to come down or get countered. Late game, if it resolves.... its actually overkill.

Goblins
Wildfire sets you back too much, they have Vial remember? I kinda forgot. It mattered. Ill stick with my old anti gob cards. At least Suppression Field helped against that evil vial.

Deadguy
It certainly wipes them clean, but their discard makes a mockery of a 6cc sorc. Its hard to reach 6 mana against their disruption. Again, casting this was overkill anyways.

Rifter
Here's one matchup where I will pack this card in my deck. Its similar to Geddon but then again Geddon is better. They have no creatures to nuke. Its slow and doesnt kill Exalted if she shows her face.

Angel Stompy
Pro red is pretty good against Wildfire. This is a decent matchup already Ill stick with Wrath, some Prisons, and maybe Chalice for 2.

Solidarity
Way too slow. You can turbo out turn 3 fastest but it leaves you just as crippled as much of the time depending if you have crucible or not. If you dont, forget it.

Ive found Wildfire to be very slow or just sub optimal in this deck. You really need Crucible to make it worth it. Im thinking Catastrophe would be much more powerful and it stays on color. Staff of Domination has been quite good for IBA so maybe ill give that a try too.

If you still want to go red some other good options might be Pillage for its use as more LD and as a Jitte/Vial destroyer. Arc-Slogger seems like he'd win you the game if you untap with him. Avarax shows some promise as well. Dont laugh!

Flame Vault Stax v Angel Stax is completely irrelevant. Once both decks get more than maybe 1 player per tournament, I really don't think it bears discussion.

No dude. The Flame Vault v Angel Stax is irrelevant cause someone cancelled your show. DCI shit in your cerial. I dont mean to rub it in. I just.. Had to.

I think Ill need to quote Chris here and just say, "Grab your WoG's".

Citrus-God

04-22-2006, 12:47 AM

I ditched Wildfire like 3 days ago, and please use the Kegs; they're quite nice... Besides, Wildfire wasnt that bad. It seems sorta okay. Fields should already win you a game versus Rifter; if they cant get that cantrip/cycling engine going, then their screwed (I mean they wont be constantly playing a land each turn). But thanks. I was also quite angry at my results as well. Also, last time I went White/Red in Stax, was for Time Vault Stax, and the stupid Enlighten Tutors/Burning Wish engines.

As for Anusien's quote: I admire the fact that one of your favorite shows happen to be "How I met you Mother," but that deck was stupid; my friend got trampled over by crap, like Red Deck Wins, and even Solidarity (Play by my friend). Also the DCI made me sad, because Trix was cool...

Edit: Does Sylvan Library and Uba Mask work?

Citrus-God

04-30-2006, 05:12 PM

So anyway, who's going to take Angel Stax with them to the next 1.5 World Championship? I know I am if I'm going...

Anarky87

04-30-2006, 06:09 PM

I know I'd be playing this deck more if I could ever get ahold of Diamonds. I have essentially every other piece to play the deck, yet everytime I go to pick up Diamonds, they're either horribly over priced, or someone always outbids me at the last second (Ebay). My friend got all the pieces, played it about 3-4 times, didn't do well, and wrote it off as, "Ok, but not as good as I thought." even after I repeatedly told him he needed to practice with it...Some people never learn I guess. But the deck is very strong and I would like to see it get some recognition as I've always liked it way more than FVS.

SillyMetalGAT

04-30-2006, 06:55 PM

Has anyone considered Windborne Muse over Ghostly Prison? Its a 2/3 for 3W that does the same thing. It pretty much doubles your kill conditions and probably will win you multiple games.

Machinus

04-30-2006, 07:03 PM

Wrath > Muse

Citrus-God

05-01-2006, 12:36 AM

Windborn Muse... maybe. I may consider that card if I need more Prisons, but from what I've learned from my White Gro playing friend; you dont need that many win conditions when your in top 8, since theres no time limit.

Now heres a story. I locked him with an Uba Mask, 4 Ports, a Crucible, a Smokestack at 1, and a couple Prisons. Guess how I won? I decked him out!

Seriously, running More prisons whold be nice...

Uba Mask has been decent in testing, but it wasnt really needed. Your better off with Machinus's SB...

emidln

05-01-2006, 02:09 AM

If you want more prisons why not run Moat? At least it won't die to your own Wrath of God. Not to mention, it ruins all but four creatures in the format (Enforcer, Dragon, Angels, and Hippies).

Bane of the Living

05-01-2006, 12:18 PM

emidln

05-01-2006, 01:58 PM

I think the idea behind Muse is that its another win condition. But how many win conditions make too many when running 4 wrath?

If taking out Suppression Field would Temporal Apature make up for the decks lack of card draw?

I don't think that I could afford to lose Suppression Field at this point, but my extra win condition is -1 Port, +1 Mishra's Factory. I do this mainly because I only have 3 Ports, but Mishra's Factory has randomly won me at least three games along with an extra couple where it bought me time with Crucible.

Citrus-God

05-02-2006, 12:53 AM

TA seems sorta slow actually... really. In my honest opinion, I think that the Time Walk goodness is a better draw engine...

Moat doesnt seem that bad of an idea actually, but against Gro, Dragons and Enforcers will go nuts. Prison stops a lot, with Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Wasteland, and Ports.

emidln

05-03-2006, 02:29 PM

I went 2-2 (lost one favorable matchup (rifter) on landscrew and then to burn (saw no answers after some mulliganing)) this week, but I have some questions about proper sideboarding here.

In the matchups I've played at tournaments so far, I think I've sided rather consistently, but I'd like to know what you think is the correct sideboard.

Week One configuration: Standard Suppression Field list and board with -1 Port, +1 Mishra's Factory

Angel Stompy w/Armageddon, Vial, Equipment, Fetches (won 2-1)

-1 Mishra's Factory
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

I think this is the right play here since his equipment doesn't really bother me when he can't produce enough mana to attack me or keep the creatures on the board.

I lost game 2 due to hitting all of my land drops (and seeing no other cards) until I was overrun by a bunch of dorks holding weapons.

Game 3 I won because of Tabernacle in the late game. Tabernacle is my MVP. I almost want one in the MD and another in the board.

R/g Vial Goblins (w/Naturalize) (2-0)

I win game one and am on the draw in game 2.

Game 2:

-4 Chalice of the Void

+2 Sphere of Law
+1 The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale
+1 Hannah's Custody

My reasoning behind this is pretty simple. Chalice of the Void is absolutely terrible against fast aggro like Affinity or Goblins on the draw. The utility of Chalices comes from (1) playing Chalice @ 1 first turn to stop Lackey and Vial or playing a Chalice @ 2 or Chalice @ 3 late in the game to stop artifact and enchantment hate. With Goblins there is not a late game. There is an early game which you must survive and a mid game which you must lock them out. Anything less equals game loss. Since Chalice doesn't help here as I'm not going to be able to stop Vial or Lackey first turn, I drop it.

As far as what I sided in, Sphere of Law is a kick in the nuts to everything not named Goblin Piledriver, Tabernacle is amazing against Goblins in general, SGC in particular, and Hannah's Custody came in because I absolutely did not want to see a Chalice in my opening hand. At least Hannah's Custody can protect my lock.

I won this with a quick Suppression Field after he played turn 1 Ather Vial and wasting his only green source to keep him off Naturalize and other nonsense of the green sort.

R/W Rifter (2-0)

Suppression Field pretty much owns the matchup. The key here was to mulligan aggressively into Tangle Wires and Smokestacks to keep him off of 6 mana. 6 mana = bad times.

I boarded for game 2 like this:

-3 Trinisphere
-3 Wrath of God
+2 Sphere of Law
+1 Hannah's Custody
+3 Disenchant

Trinisphere isn't really a threat here since Chalice @ 1 handles StP. The big threats are Akroma's vengeance and boarded artifact/enchantment hate.

B/W Confidant (I.D. to my friend but 0-2 in simulation)

Game one I lose to Dark Ritual + Duress + Hymn followed up by Sinkhole and then Nantuko Shade.

I believe I boarded out a Trinisphere for my Tabernacle so I'd have a better shot at surviving wastelands. It failed miserably. I went turn 1 Chalie @ 1 and he Sinkhole'd, Hymn'd, and Nantuko Shade'd me into the ground.

The second time I borrowed a Moat from my friend Justin. I kept the same maindeck as before with -1 Wrath of God, +1 Moat. I loved the Moat all night. I never saw the Threshold matchup as I lost to burn early, but it was golden when I found it. It won a game against B/W Confidant and one game against Angel Stompy for me.

B/W Confidant (2-0)

Game 1, he mulligans to 5 and I have turn 2 Suppression Field, turn 3 Smokestack, turn 4 Crucible and waste away his white sources.

-1 Trinisphere
+1 Tabernacle

Game 2, Moat and Tabernacle eat him along with an onslaught of Tangle Wires and Smokestacks until I find a mid-game Angel that beats FTW.

U/W Angel Stompy (w/o Armageddon and w/ Jitte) (2-0)

I get a double Smokestack online with some Tangle Wires and a Trinisphere and quickly stack him out. The game takes forever until I find a Mishra's Factory FTW.

-1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Tabernacle

I believe Moat wins me the game here, buying me time with me Wrathing away random Angels to find a Smokestack and stack him out.

R/u Burn (U for card draw I believe) (0-2)

He burns me out quickly since I kept a hand meant for Goblins that I thought I saw earlier in the night.

-3 Wrath of God
-2 Ghostly Prison
+2 Sphere of Law
+3 Defense Grid

Sphere of Law is obviously good. Defense Grid makes my opponent play on their turn which seems like it could help, and as far as permanent count later in the game, it's colorless and costs less than Ghostly Prison. It was straight burn so I didn't have to worry about random Ball Lightnings.[

R/W Rifter (1-2)

I own game one as my opponent doesn't get past 4 land at any point in time, with Trinisphere locking him out of StP for Angels to beat through.

-3 Trinisphere
-3 Wrath of God
+2 Sphere of Law
+1 Hannah's Custody
+3 Disenchant

Game 2 I don't find land quickly enough and look silly as he does Double Akroma's Vengence on me.

Game 3 I think about putting a wrath back in to deal with a large decree but decide against it. Anyway, I sit on 2 land after a mulligan and pile shuffle and finish the game with 2 lands while he goes nuts (at least for Rifter).

So, what of my boarding strategy? I haven't really seen anything on boarding for the matchups since the second article, and the deck plays a lot differently now with Suppression Field. Also, if I am going to run a random Moat, is it better to run it over a Wrath of God or a Ghostly Prison. I think Wrath since they cost the same with Ghostly Prison being the cheaper of the two.

Machinus

05-03-2006, 06:13 PM

Siding out Chalices on the draw against Goblins is definitely the right play. You don't want them after turn 1.

Putting in 1 Moat for a Wrath seems fine if you can get a significant benefit from it. At the moment there aren't too many flying creatures, but one reason Wrath is so good is that it kills guys that aren't there for attacking, like elves, birds, confidants, tinkerers (!), siege-gang, etc. Wrath cleans up a lot of problems that stack and prison can't handle alone (and makes stack much more relevant to the game state). However, if in the environment you are in, it would be a good trade most of the time, definitely go for it.

The general construction of the SB is also subject to this idea. If you can identify some cards that would really dominate in your environment, find a way to put them in the SB (or even the maindeck). There are quite a few options for white, so teching the deck isn't too hard if you know what decks you will be playing against.

Bane of the Living

05-03-2006, 07:15 PM

My reasoning behind this is pretty simple. Chalice of the Void is absolutely terrible against fast aggro like Affinity or Goblins on the draw. The utility of Chalices comes from (1) playing Chalice @ 1 first turn to stop Lackey and Vial or playing a Chalice @ 2 or Chalice @ 3 late in the game to stop artifact and enchantment hate. With Goblins there is not a late game. There is an early game which you must survive and a mid game which you must lock them out. Anything less equals game loss. Since Chalice doesn't help here as I'm not going to be able to stop Vial or Lackey first turn, I drop it.

You dont really play Chalice for 3 do you? There are like 15-20 cards in the deck with a 3 mana cc. Playing Chalice for 3 is rediculous.

Personally even on the draw against Goblins, Ill keep 2 Chalice in the deck. Its not always dead mid-late game because I'll often wipe my opponents board with Wrath and Smokestack. Smokestack eventually eats Vial. If CotV is out they cant play another. There are often 2 goblin decks in my meta that run Lightning Bolt as well, so it hits enough to be worthy of game two.

You might say eating my opponets vial with Smokestack is where they should scoop anyways. But there are alot of game where Stax will completely eat the perms off the table and still have a ways to go before the game is won.

emidln

05-03-2006, 10:18 PM

You dont really play Chalice for 3 do you? There are like 15-20 cards in the deck with a 3 mana cc. Playing Chalice for 3 is rediculous.

Not as often as you'd think. Especially if you have some of them on the board already. In the end you can just sac it to Smokestack and continue on your gameplan. Same with Chalice @ 2 when I used to play Flame Vault. I let Chalice @ 2 hurt my opponent until I want to win. In this deck, Crucible/Trinisphere would be the win and I'd play it as such.

Al-ucard

05-04-2006, 02:47 PM

emidln

05-04-2006, 04:07 PM

Why not some Enlightened Tutor, this way you can put some silverbullet enchantments or put less copies of some cards...

I want to try Horn of Greed as a draw engine?, if you think about it, opponent will draw cards, but you will draw more than him/her, and thanks to crucible you will go nuts...

I've been trying a pair of Eternal Dragon too as a Win condition instead of Angels, because ED helps to fix mana base early game and return back from dead to kill opponent in long game...

I think that I'll play with 4 Cataclysm 2 WoG

This is my list for now, but i'll read the entire thread and recollect ideas for improve it:

Mana
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
3 City of Traitors

Stax
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

Others
4 Cataclysm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Horn of Greed
2 Wrath of God

Win Conditions
3 Eternal Dragon

Sideboard
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt

I would like to put spheres of resistance and some tangle wire, but I don't know very well what to quit...

Comments?

2-Spheres really aren't needed since we already have 3-sphere and we're only interested in locking the game and preventing storm combo, not from playing cards ourselves. I said it on SCG, but your manabase looks nice. It seems like it could be short on white mana at times but Eternal Dragon is an interesting solution to that, even if I think it is inferior overall to Angel. I'd probably try 3-4 Ports instead of Factories myself because Port has done very well for me in tournament play.

As far as Enlightened Tutor goes, I don't think Stax can afford to play cards that don't affect the board. Especially non-permanents. Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage (bad in our builds because we don't draw any other cards outside of our one per turn) that doesn't feed Smokestack. At least the Mox Diamond can be pitched to an active Stax.

Horn of Greed gets worse as you play more lands before it hits play and also doesn't affect board state. In addition to not affecting board state (and potentially clogging your hand early with something that isn't a lockpiece) drawing cards negates one of the win conditions of your deck. Every deck in the format should outdraw us and we should let them. If our win conditions are sent farming (which happens in race situations sometimes), we need a way to win and decking is that answer. Decking happens one card at a time, the old-fashioned way.

It really looks like this would have a problem with fast aggro like Goblins or Zoo, which are currently great matchups for white stax in Legacy. The thing is, I don't know that you'd be giving up good matchups for benefits anywhere else. Catalysm seems like kludge to fix the fact that you don't run enough aggro hate. It resets the permanent positions which is something Stax wants to be winning, especially with land drops.

I'd probably try this manabase (or something similar mated to Suppression Field/Tangle Wire/Ghostly Prison/Moat to attempt to form a more explosive version of Angel Stax 2.0.

Al-ucard

05-05-2006, 03:34 AM

I see the point about 2-Spheres but I put them to improve the first turn timewalk...

About Dragons I really have to say that they rock in this deck, early game they give you lands to feed your stax and late game you can reccur them to beat the opponent, and the most important thing here is that they return, if you lose your angels you don't have another way to kill the opponent because you don't have factories neither...

I put tutors is to avoid the topdecking mode, and I really think that 2-3 don't make so much bad to the deck... A good example is when you have stax but not crucible, and need to recur lands...

And about horn, I'm not sure to put them, because finally I don't want that opponent have card advantage... I will quit them...

About cataclysm, yes, it reset the board position, but you know that you will play it. Its like Upheaval in old Tog decks, you have the advantage of the surprise. While opponent is playing all his/her land drops, you cand wait or play crucible until you play cataclysm and finally win the match.

But maybe 4 are a lot, I think 4 Wrath and 2 Cataclysm is better...

Could you post your list to compare please?

Thanks to all

emidln

05-05-2006, 08:29 AM

The list I'm working with is very close to Machinus' list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of World
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Moat
3 Wrath of God
3 Exalted Angel

I'm not sure about my sideboard right now, except that it includes:

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Disenchant
3 Sphere of Law
1 Trinisphere
0 Defense Grid
0 Tormod's Crypt
4 Juggernaut
1 Exalted Angel
2 Razormane Masticore

This is a transformational sideboard that I'm experimenting with. Board into Workshop-less Aggro. The changes I've made from Machinus' list are as follows:

-2 Rishadan Port
-1 Plains
-1 Wrath of God
+2 City of Traitors
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Moat

I have to do more testing, but I never want to see more than one port, and I rarely would prefer a port over more mana or something that blocks (even for 3 or 5). Perhaps I haven't played enough matchups where Ports are useful, but it seems like there is always a better play. That said, after some sort of reset button (like double Stax), a single port is a good thing to have so I left 2.

Moat over Wrath is sorta a meta call. Everytime I play moat my game gets exponentially better the longer it stays in play. Against most decks, it eliminates 52-56 cards from you even caring. That means you have to stop 4-8 flying creatures instead of 12-32 creatures. Much more manageable.

The Factory has been a random win condition that I like and I think it was taken out for a Port that I didn't have and just stayed in. It might want to become a plains, I'm not sure.

Machinus

05-05-2006, 10:41 AM

I've used factories in many builds of Stax and Aggro. I have played around with this exchange:

-3 Trinisphere
-4 Rishadan Port

+1 Exalted Angel
+1 City of Traitors
+1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+4 Mishra's Factory

There are some decks that Trinisphere just doesn't do a whole lot against, and when the environment is full of them, this can be an improvement. Ports amplify the effect of Trinisphere, but when Trinisphere isn't doing much to begin with, they are only good against control, and we all know how good control is in this format.

emidln

05-05-2006, 10:51 AM

... and we all know how good control is in this format.

I thought we were the control deck....

Bane of the Living

05-05-2006, 06:33 PM

I would never cut 3sphere. Its the card that gets me all my turn 1 wins. It with Smokestack usually create the situation my opponent scoops at. Not Angel. I dont understand adding mishras to the deck because dealing the 2 a turn is putting as much pressure on your opponent as just playing a lock piece each turn. Once your board gets lockdown winning isnt an issue. Ports are crucial to keeping your opponents locked under the sphere. Especially to tap basic lands that cant be destroyed by wastelock. Tangle Wire is better along side port as well.

Eternal Dragon is lame to me. With Suppression Field in play its another anti synergistic card. Pay 7 to return to my hand!!?? He's no where near an efficient kill card since he's mad expensive, doesnt gain you life, and has anti synergies with field. This is ANGEL Stax.

Machinus

05-05-2006, 08:46 PM

Factories are there mostly to block in the early game - they are 3/3 uncounterable blockers, which can be significant when you are trying to survive into the midgame.

Port and Trinisphere go very well together, but there are a few decks that trinisphere is poor against, such as those that run expensive spells to begin with. I have played in some environments where Trinisphere was a weak choice, and the factories served me better. In a more highly competitive metagame, I would probably keep them in.

I also don't like Dragon. Seven mana is ridiculous, and StP is what is going to eat your guys anyway.

Al-ucard

05-06-2006, 03:08 AM

That is the question, I like a lot factories and dragon because I don't use Suppression field, I think it's a good card, but don't see the point... You have more than enought lock pieces in form of 3-Sphere, Stax, Tangle, Chalice, wasteland, ports...

And another thing, why do you have 1 ofs if you don't have any tutor to search them for? I'm referring to tabernacle, moat and others 1 of I see you have post...

Anyway, I like a lot your builds too

Anusien

05-06-2006, 03:36 AM

That is the question, I like a lot factories and dragon because I don't use Suppression field, I think it's a good card, but don't see the point... You have more than enought lock pieces in form of 3-Sphere, Stax, Tangle, Chalice, wasteland, ports...
Suppression Field is the best thing about Stax. Dropping it early kicks so many decks in the junk because it hits Aether Vial and fetchlands. It also has some minor benefits against stuff like equipment.

And another thing, why do you have 1 ofs if you don't have any tutor to search them for? I'm referring to tabernacle, moat and others 1 of I see you have post...
Partially the Uno Principle: You'll see it occaisonally and it will win you games, but it won't get in your way too often. The main thing though is that 1 Moat/3 Wrath of God isn't a weird split, it's 4 cards that beat up on creatures, where one of them is randomly a little better or a little worse.

Machinus

05-06-2006, 05:04 PM

Suppression Field is the best thing about Stax. Dropping it early kicks so many decks in the junk because it hits Aether Vial and fetchlands. It also has some minor benefits against stuff like equipment.

Actually, Wrath is the strongest card in this deck. Field is great because it disrupts so many common cards, but Wrath gives this deck control of the board, and the game, after it resolves. Wrath pushes this deck into white, not Field.

Citrus-God

05-06-2006, 05:35 PM

I thought we were the control deck....
Let's just make this clear. In the role of the game, we have the control deck, and the beatdown deck. Uba Stax plays the beatdown. Cron Stax and Rainbow Stax have the option to play control if they want, other than that, it's beatdown. Now Angel Stax plays the beatdown in most games I've played. Even versus Combo, your just dropping lock components constantly. Versus aggro, I raced with a Smokestack, a 3Sphere, and an Angel, and it only takes me 5 turns to win from there. This deck has Control cards, but will play the role of the beatdown deck in most games. Or to make this simple, Prison/Combo Control means the Combo part plays the beatdown, while the Control part protects the combo, or disrupts the opponent until he runs low on resources.

Also, Dragon is crap in this deck. It's mana hungry, and the recursion ability is stupid. I'd also rather play Field/Keg on turn 2, then a Plain cycle ability. This deck can already draw into lands like crazy, Plain cycling is pointless.

Cron Stax and 5c Stax has Ancestral Recall/Tutors, Uba Stax has Uba Mask and Bazaar of Beghdad. Angel Stax has Time Walks and WoGs for card advantage/answers.

emidln

05-06-2006, 08:27 PM

Let's just make this clear. In the role of the game, we have the control deck, and the beatdown deck. Uba Stax plays the beatdown. Cron Stax and Rainbow Stax have the option to play control if they want, other than that, it's beatdown. Now Angel Stax plays the beatdown in most games I've played. Even versus Combo, your just dropping lock components constantly. Versus aggro, I raced with a Smokestack, a 3Sphere, and an Angel, and it only takes me 5 turns to win from there. This deck has Control cards, but will play the role of the beatdown deck in most games. Or to make this simple, Prison/Combo Control means the Combo part plays the beatdown, while the Control part protects the combo, or disrupts the opponent until he runs low on resources.

I have never been in a situation where I'm racing with this deck. I've found that mulliganing properly, in testing, combo has to be beatdown as they must combo out on turn 1/2 before Chalice/Trinisphere stall them to turns 3/4 where Smokestack comes online and wins. Combo must play very aggressively to have a small chance.

As far as with other decks, Stax is always the control deck, but our control elements are proactive rather than reactive (excluding WoG). You control the game with tempo. If you fail to do that, you are forced to go into a more reactive control game where you hope to Wrath something away. Angel Stax is terrible when it must play things reactively. It won't win. When you lose tempo against any deck that isn't creatures and land, you will lose the game completely. This is why our deck is a lot better on the play where we start with tempo and when on the draw we need a strong first turn play like Suppression Field/Trinisphere/Crucible/Tangle Wire.

I never drop my Angel to race. My Angel doesn't race. It is simpy a mana efficient win condition with evasion. I could just as well splash a mountain and run goblin welders. When I play Angel, I play her behind a lock of Tangle Wires, Smokestack/Trinisphere or Smokestack/Chalice (@1 normally). For the smokestack wins, Goblin Welder would work fine. Tangle Wire kills, which happen on around 20-25% of the time would be negated and I would be forced to build more card advantage through board control and win later.

By your arguments, every control deck that wins through a creature is a beatdown deck. This simply isn't true. Control decks only become beatdown when under extreme stress or when they have established control of the game. That would leave Millstone as pretty much the only non-beatdown win condition. I don't really like the metaphor of beatdown/control decks. Talking about beatdown and control (and the inevitable misassignment of game role=loss) isn't as good as talking about tempo. Beatdown decks are the decks that normally start the game with tempo. When they lose tempo, the control deck has taken control of the game and assumes the role of beatdown by continuing the control and gaining more tempo.

When talking about beatdown and control, prison decks have an obvious problem. Normally, if you play cards proactively, you are beatdown. Our cards are control cards however and are meant to set up our prison, reinforcing it with each extra card. The only way I see to remedy the problem is to lose the terms and talk about playing the tempo game instead.

Al-ucard

05-07-2006, 05:40 AM

I could just as well splash a mountain and run goblin welders. When I play Angel, I play her behind a lock of Tangle Wires, Smokestack/Trinisphere or Smokestack/Chalice (@1 normally). For the smokestack wins, Goblin Welder would work fine. Tangle Wire kills, which happen on around 20-25% of the time would be negated and I would be forced to build more card advantage through board control and win later.

Mmmmmm... Could you post your list with the red splash? I always want to use welders in a legacy deck but I failed in all my attempts... You only post a single mountain? you have something to fecht it? I want to know more, I love Welder!

emidln

05-07-2006, 09:56 AM

Mmmmmm... Could you post your list with the red splash? I always want to use welders in a legacy deck but I failed in all my attempts... You only post a single mountain? you have something to fecht it? I want to know more, I love Welder!

The list is doesn't exist, it is an argument illustrating that I could use just about any creature to win once I have Smokestack lock. Goblin Welder is just popular from Vintage. I could also run Mountain Goat or splash a Forest for a Tarpan. The point is that once you have the lock you've won, using Angel is simply one of the most efficient ways to kill your opponent in our regular color.

Bane of the Living

05-08-2006, 10:18 PM

Id just like to add the smash face speed the angel has against certain decks. Not every match you play do you want to go the whole Ghostly Prison, Field, Tangle Wire ect. Against alot of combo decks your goal is to get CotV, Trinisphere, Wastelock, and Tangle Wire. Beyond that Smokestack will often keep combo from winning thanks to the fact they play so few perms. There are many games against combo where I'll lay a turn 2 angel after first playing a 3sphere or chalice. You cant always hope for something better to come along so turbo angel style is somewhat reliant.

Anarky87

05-09-2006, 11:04 AM

I've used that strategy a few times myself. Sometimes if I notice them starting slow, and if I have the resources to back it up, I'll throw down a turn 2-3 Angel. I find that sometimes this puts enough pressure on them to make them back pedal, and then I play Chalice/Trinisphere/Tangel Wire. I'd use this against combo, but I'd start with Chalice/Trinisphere in that case and then throw down the Angel for the beats.

Citrus-God

05-09-2006, 05:43 PM

I have never been in a situation where I'm racing with this deck. I've found that mulliganing properly, in testing, combo has to be beatdown as they must combo out on turn 1/2 before Chalice/Trinisphere stall them to turns 3/4 where Smokestack comes online and wins. Combo must play very aggressively to have a small chance.

As far as with other decks, Stax is always the control deck, but our control elements are proactive rather than reactive (excluding WoG). You control the game with tempo. If you fail to do that, you are forced to go into a more reactive control game where you hope to Wrath something away. Angel Stax is terrible when it must play things reactively. It won't win. When you lose tempo against any deck that isn't creatures and land, you will lose the game completely. This is why our deck is a lot better on the play where we start with tempo and when on the draw we need a strong first turn play like Suppression Field/Trinisphere/Crucible/Tangle Wire.

I never drop my Angel to race. My Angel doesn't race. It is simpy a mana efficient win condition with evasion. I could just as well splash a mountain and run goblin welders. When I play Angel, I play her behind a lock of Tangle Wires, Smokestack/Trinisphere or Smokestack/Chalice (@1 normally). For the smokestack wins, Goblin Welder would work fine. Tangle Wire kills, which happen on around 20-25% of the time would be negated and I would be forced to build more card advantage through board control and win later.

By your arguments, every control deck that wins through a creature is a beatdown deck. This simply isn't true. Control decks only become beatdown when under extreme stress or when they have established control of the game. That would leave Millstone as pretty much the only non-beatdown win condition. I don't really like the metaphor of beatdown/control decks. Talking about beatdown and control (and the inevitable misassignment of game role=loss) isn't as good as talking about tempo. Beatdown decks are the decks that normally start the game with tempo. When they lose tempo, the control deck has taken control of the game and assumes the role of beatdown by continuing the control and gaining more tempo.

When talking about beatdown and control, prison decks have an obvious problem. Normally, if you play cards proactively, you are beatdown. Our cards are control cards however and are meant to set up our prison, reinforcing it with each extra card. The only way I see to remedy the problem is to lose the terms and talk about playing the tempo game instead.

You won the argument. I guess we both play this deck very differently. The way we both use our Angels differently state that we play the deck a different style. I guess I'm sorta naive at this point. But based on what I said, it did not make me say that Landstill is a beatdown deck, as it runs 11 Win Conditions at most. I'm saying that the deck only assumes the beatdown
role because it wants absolute control over the game. It wants to stop you from winning, but yet maintain it's own tempo. Sometimes when it has control over the game, but will lose that control within a matter of time, you lay your angel down. But that's all from my experience...

Tyler_Durden

05-10-2006, 05:52 AM

emidln

05-10-2006, 10:26 AM

hi Everybody.

I playtested the deck yesterday and gonna compete in a tournament on sunday. My first testing results against grow weren't that good. I simply missed to draw Wrath 5 games long thx to the stupid shufflin skill of mws. But at all I could see my dominance so i suppose to win all the games if I draw at least one wrath.

One question: When do you use you're Tormod's Crypt against threshold. Do you remove theire grave when they attack the first time with threshold or do you wait 1-2 turns taking some damage and stall them cuz they dnt want to play more cantrips/creatures?

I generally don't side in more than 1-2 Crypts and I hold them until late in the game when lethal is getting close. You should have a really good game against them anyway, without even boarding. You are pretty much their anti deck. The key is to mulligan aggressively into turn 1-2-3 threats. If you can play a turn 1 Chalice, Trinisphere, or Suppression Field, they must force it or lose. If you're running Moat, resolving it or 1-2 Ghostly Prison will be game as you should be able to keep them from ever attacking through wastelock, smokestack, tangle wires, and ports.

Normally, against red gro, I side in sphere of laws and not crypts since I don't really fear big creatures as much as I fear cheap burn.

Btw, if you can keep them off of blue early in the game, you win. If they don't cycle through their deck with cheap cantrips, they will lose pretty hard. Chalice, Trinisphere, Wasteland, Port (only Brainstorm and Mental Note are instant), and Tangle Wire all help out here. You don't fear the creatures, you fear the support for the creatures as you can easily deal with their guys.

Citrus-God

05-11-2006, 11:07 PM

And Threshold runs a very land light mana base. At mose, they will have 11 Real Lands at most. Shut down their cantrips and they draw into any lands, Waste/Port them a lot, Ghostly Prisons are your best friends, and also give Tangle Wire, CoW, and Smokestack a lot of credit. Also, Angels would be pretty cool blockers.

Bane of the Living

05-12-2006, 12:01 AM

Suppression Field is alittle over valued against thresh cause they only run 6 fetchs sometimes. Infact alot of noobs in my meta only own 0-6 fetches and still try to play Thresh. Rishadin Port is way better to take out ther green mana. With keeping your denial lands against their Trops and Forest, they cant even cast their win conditions against you. Field sometimes gets in the way of my denial lands as much as it gets in the way of their fetchlands. It seems even.

Suppression Field is the card Im considering taking out the most. Denial lands are our biggest strength against many decks and I like them working at top notch.

Field is weaker now anyways because Goblins is underplayed and Timevault has been slain.

Machinus

05-12-2006, 05:43 AM

Suppression Field is the card Im considering taking out the most.

Field is best in highly competitive environments. If you face a lot of weaker decks, there are usually stronger options.

stompy

05-12-2006, 10:02 AM

Lego

05-12-2006, 02:18 PM

Curious to know if anyone has entertained the idea of God's Eye to the Rekai?

The benefit of having a saccable permanent helps keep our lock in place, while providing for that damage to bring us to the eventual goal of winning?
Recurrable with Crucible and even still legendary for double point advantage, and chump blocker potential against rushes.
Seems to me that this is a worthy inclusion. Therefore I am including it in my build for an event tonight. I'll post what happens.

The first question that arises is what to take out. The manabase is already tight. I honestly want more room already, what with fitting in enough double mana producing lands, plains, and Waste/Port. There's honestly nothing I'd take out for a land that produces a single colorless and doesn't put pressure on my opponent.

Bane of the Living

05-12-2006, 02:47 PM

I did try God's Eye. It was worse than Mishras and I cant even make room for that happily. It really only has synergy with Crucible and your deck wants to be playable without it. What happens if you draw 2 without it? Ouch. Its only somewhat good with Crucible + Smokestack.

Al-ucard

05-12-2006, 03:06 PM

emidln

05-12-2006, 03:12 PM

After some playtesting I really want to quit Fields, I think that is really suboptimal in this archetype, activated abilities are about permanents, and this deck want that opponent don't have any permanents in board (its redundant, I don't know if I explain myself well)...

It only makes you pay 2 for wasteland, 2 more for ports... I want to quit them and put another card that helps more to the main purpose of the deck (that's control the board)

Maybe Powder Keg is the card we need... I prefer to play keg to stop cards like vial or scepter (to say 2 examples) than make opponent pay 2 more to active them...

Powder Keg is terrible. If I didn't play Suppression Field (not a viable option IMO), it would be replaced by things that didn't cost 1 or 2 mana so I could safely Chalice @ 2. Since stax is about permanent advantage (and more directly, permanent denial), Suppression Field helps out by nullifying fetches and/or turning fetches into really poor draws (the choice of play a new land or play a new permanent comes up frequently as an opponent of angel stax).

Why do you care that you are paying 2 for wasteland? When you draw for your turn you either play a land or a permanent against most matchups. If you get a land, you spend your turn tapping down or destroying stuff. If you don't have a Suppression Field out, it makes wasteland and port good cards, but with the Field (or Fields) out, they become amazing cards against most decks. Here's why:

Other decks can't afford to spend 2, 4, or even more on finding a new land. You can. In fact, since your lands come back, you'll happily trade 4 and a land drop or 5 and a land tapped to stop them from playing things. If you waste a dual land vs Threshold or Landstill under a Suppression Field, they now have play two basics, a fetch, a life, and 2, or another dual to make up for it. If they play a fetch and can't break it, or play it and accidentally tap out for something else, you can waste it providing you more tempo and advantage. Since you are trying to deny them mana, paying mana that you have no other use for is an amazing trade.

Look at it another way. The cards you are trying to stop are not Ather Vial and Scepter. You want to stop the creatures Vial puts out from seeing the attack step (or play for that matter) and from the copies of spells scepter creates to resolve. Once a Scepter with a chant resolves, you lose. When the creatures are in play, you lose. Powder Keg will take 1-2 turns to ramp up to get to where it needs to be to destroy these cards when what you want to be doing is stopping the creatures or the spell copies at that point. Suppression Field helps by giving you extra time to develop Tangle Wires, Chalices, Trinispheres, Smokestacks, and Ghostly Prisons. Powder doesn't do anything here except Time Walk the opponent.

Al-ucard

05-12-2006, 03:24 PM

Powder Keg is terrible. If I didn't play Suppression Field (not a viable option IMO), it would be replaced by things that didn't cost 1 or 2 mana so I could safely Chalice @ 2. Since stax is about permanent advantage (and more directly, permanent denial), Suppression Field helps out by nullifying fetches and/or turning fetches into really poor draws (the choice of play a new land or play a new permanent comes up frequently as an opponent of angel stax).

Why do you care that you are paying 2 for wasteland? When you draw for your turn you either play a land or a permanent against most matchups. If you get a land, you spend your turn tapping down or destroying stuff. If you don't have a Suppression Field out, it makes wasteland and port good cards, but with the Field (or Fields) out, they become amazing cards against most decks. Here's why:

Other decks can't afford to spend 2, 4, or even more on finding a new land. You can. In fact, since your lands come back, you'll happily trade 4 and a land drop or 5 and a land tapped to stop them from playing things. If you waste a dual land vs Threshold or Landstill under a Suppression Field, they now have play two basics, a fetch, a life, and 2, or another dual to make up for it. If they play a fetch and can't break it, or play it and accidentally tap out for something else, you can waste it providing you more tempo and advantage. Since you are trying to deny them mana, paying mana that you have no other use for is an amazing trade.

Look at it another way. The cards you are trying to stop are not Ather Vial and Scepter. You want to stop the creatures Vial puts out from seeing the attack step (or play for that matter) and from the copies of spells scepter creates to resolve. Once a Scepter with a chant resolves, you lose. When the creatures are in play, you lose. Powder Keg will take 1-2 turns to ramp up to get to where it needs to be to destroy these cards when what you want to be doing is stopping the creatures or the spell copies at that point. Suppression Field helps by giving you extra time to develop Tangle Wires, Chalices, Trinispheres, Smokestacks, and Ghostly Prisons. Powder doesn't do anything here except Time Walk the opponent.

I have to agree on your arguments, but I don't see the point to include 4 fields to denial 4-6 fetchlands opponent have in his deck. And don't forgive that Goblins and Rifter are top tier decks that play 0-few fetchlands...

I like field because its a very good card, but for now, I never found it the utility... A lot of times I have it in hand and never needed to play it...

emidln

05-12-2006, 05:12 PM

I have to agree on your arguments, but I don't see the point to include 4 fields to denial 4-6 fetchlands opponent have in his deck. And don't forgive that Goblins and Rifter are top tier decks that play 0-few fetchlands...

I like field because its a very good card, but for now, I never found it the utility... A lot of times I have it in hand and never needed to play it...

Forgive me but, OMFG, Suppression Field owns rifter! You do realize that cycling is an activated ability right? And Goblins will play 4-8 fetchlands depending on the build, not to mention the utility of stopping them from comboing you out game 1 with SGC. It hurts their ports, wastes, and vials as well. Suppression Field is on a level with Moat and turn 1 Trinisphere in this matchup.

Citrus-God

05-12-2006, 05:16 PM

Suppression Field also hits Cycling, so Dragon and the land find cantrips get shut down. So Field does put hate on Rifter. As for Vial Goblins, it shuts down Ports and Wastes so you wont get hurt. Fetchlands will also be a nice hit. AEther Vial is something you may want to stop...

Bane of the Living

05-12-2006, 05:27 PM

Suppression Field is not on tier with turn one 3sphere against any deck ever.

Field is a touchy subject. It really depends how well it does in your meta. I decided to go with 2 in the main deck and 2 in the sideboard. Its a great early lock piece that can bait counterspells or slow your opponent just enough to drop other bomb lock components. Ive been playing this deck for a while now, and I must admit, my most feared and hated card to see is..

Aether Vial

Even with Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field Ive been beaten by good goblin players. They can pay 2 vial out a guy eot and beat with him for 2 a turn till I waste a Wrath, or rip a Smokestack. This deck takes a good chunk out of its own life total. 6-10 per game. I dont like Vial and all its cheatiness.

Powder Keg does sound like a great card to put in, I currently sideboard 2. It deals with vial and scepter, another card that can be trouble for the stax player. But if removing field maybe it would be nice to take the 2cc spot away.

emidln

05-12-2006, 10:00 PM

Suppression Field is not on tier with turn one 3sphere against any deck ever.

Against Rifter I will take Suppression Field over Trinisphere all day long. Rifter doesn't care that STP costs 2W. Rifter doesn't care that Lightning Rift costs 2R. Rifter wants to cycle stuff so it can burn you with rift. Rifter wants to cycle decree to create a bunch of tokens. Rifter wants to make its first six land drops unmolested. Trinisphere doesn't stop rifter from doing anything until you already have a Stax lock. Then it's just another piece that saves your Angel while she beats, but Chalice @ 1 works just as well.

And on the draw first turn, Suppression Field is better against most of the field, including Goblins. Goblins wants to tap its Vial if they play it to drop a guy. If they dropped lackey turn 1, neither helps you, but at least Suppression Field is effective against the other half of their turn 1 shenanigans.

Bane of the Living

05-12-2006, 10:19 PM

Why are you even trying to defend your argument with Rifter? Rifter is a fuckin bye for the $400 dollar solution. Lets take a look at their list and see what comes close to mattering, ever..

Land:
19x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Secluded Steppe

Creatures:
4x Eternal Dragon

Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abeyance
4x Renewed Faith
4x Decree of Justice
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of god
3x Humility
3x Gilded Light
3x Akroma's Vengeance
2x Rune of Protection: Red

Each dragon will cycle once for one plains. I've never had an opponent able to claim one back from the yard. Swords is always taken care of by CotV. Abeyance does nothing since we drop perms, they can play it to cantrip and dig desparatly for answers they dont have. Renewed Faith can gain them all the life they want. Decree could be a small problem if they ACTUALLY get least 3 men out of it but I dont see stax scooping to that.

Akromas Vengance will never be cast for 6 mana, if it is you were probably losing anyways.

Lets not even discuss the rest of their deck, its not important. The only card in their entire deck I might want to look out for is rift. Thats it folks, and we have plenty of time to get Smokestack to rear its ugly perm hating head before we drop to 0 life because of Rifts.

As far as 3sphere vs Field against gobs on the draw, you should still be playing your sphere if able to but it depends if you have a Ghostly Prison/WoG in hand. The story doesnt change any if their turn one was Lackey or Vial.

Al-ucard

05-13-2006, 04:30 AM

Ok, I think I'll try with 2 Fields MD and 2 outside... and put 2 Prisons in their place... I think that is better put 4 Tangle MD than 4 Prison because tangle affect all permanents and prison only creatures, that way if I play against a control deck without creatures I don't lose 4 cards in my list...

Something like this...

//NAME: Angel Stax
// Mana
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
4 Rishadan Port
// Stax
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Suppression Field
2 Ghostly Prison
// Support
4 Wrath of God
// Win
3 Exalted Angel
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Disenchant
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Hanna's Custody
SB: 2 Suppression Field
SB: 2 Ghostly Prison

Any suggestions?

stompy

05-13-2006, 11:21 PM

Well I played Angel Stax last night. I am so not the sit-back-and-watch-my-deck-win kind of player, but I will say that this deck is really cool.
I had to modify due to card shortages so my list is:
7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan
1 City
1 Crystal Mine (psuedo City; never saw it... ever)
1 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter (psuedo Wasteland; owned B/W and CAL)
3 Gods Eye (sucked... you guys were right)

2 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Suppression Field
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Cage of Hands
3 Crucible
4 Wrath of God
3 Ex. Angel
4 Chalice

SB
2 Rune of Pro. Red
2 Rune of Pro. Black
3 Defense Grid
2 Disenchant
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormods Crypt

Yeah. Its pretty janky. But thats what I had to work with. My first observations are it is imperative to have 7-8 double lands. 6 is not enough.

Game 1- B/W Homebrew

Game one I had him held at 2 lands with a CotV at 2, Trinisphere, and multiple wraths. I was recurring Ghost Quarter for every land he played and he had a total of 1 basic to put in. Ghost took that one too. (In my current meta, it is an awesome addition.) I dropped Angel turn 9 or 10, the game ended.

Game 2 I mulled aggressively to 5 and still never saw a Tomb or City. I lost that game. Hymns and Hyppies and Sinkhole. I couldn't get an active Chalice or 3sphere.

Game 3 was much like the second. I had boarded in RoP Black and held off the Shade beats, but like an idiot, I never activated for both attacking creatures. I was thinking so hard about getting my lock in play that I just wasn't playing. 1-2; 0-1 match.

Match 2- CAL (ported to legacy)

Game one, I watched him cycle over and over, and loam and do it all again and again. Finally got an active 3sphere, then Wire followed by Wire, then Stax. When the wires ran out, he payed the 3 for loam, laid a Seismic, and beat me up. No removal other than Stax, but he didn't need the land anymore....

Game 2, I came outta the blocks running. Turn one Field. Go. His, land go. Turn 2, 3sphere. Go. His, land go. Turn 3 CotV for 3. Enter scoop phase.

Game 3 was a lot like 1. I held him early with Wires and recurring Ghost Quarter, again only 2 basics so I had a good lock. And then I didn't know how to play out my CotVs. I had one online at 2, no Field in play (bummer) so I couldn't stop the dredging. But the next 8 or 9 draws on my side were these (no particular order.. you'll understand why) Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, Field, Dis, Seal, Field.... get it? I couldn't do anything with the cards in my hand. I had him soft with Quarter/Crucible, but he kept laying down Moxen, and kept searching for some win condition... I finally scooped when I just had enough of drawing 2cc spell after 2cc spell. I was bored. It was late. I missed my kids.

So what did I say to him? "Watch, next card is Angel." It was. I would've beat him. Goes to show you that you just can't give up on this deck. It does what its supposed to, but it just doesn't do it fast.

So what have I learned? 4 tombs and 4 traitors a must. I almost felt like smokestacks were unnecessary most of the time, but then again, I never felt like I knew when to add more soot counters either. I was too afraid of losing my own board. More testing will teach me, as well as your own experiences. Please share.

Well thats my silly report. I know the list above is janky. It will be more normal soon. So any comments regarding the list are fine but I get it, the list sucks. Try out Ghost Quarter too. It pretty funny to hear your opponent say, "uh I dont have any basic lands.... are you sure that doesn't say 'Destroy target NON-basic land?'"