View Full Version : [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
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Legacy Countersliver
"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo, and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence decks. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.
Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the hook-like appearance of sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, metagames evolve, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger and more efficient, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, Striking, and Syphon. Then a few years later came the Modern Horizons set to gift us with Cloudshredder Sliver and Unsettled Mariner. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls, Sliver Hive, and Unclaimed Territory to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.
Building Countersliver
Previous versions of Legacy Countersliver were typically built to operate on 3 colors (UWG) or 4 colors (UWGB). The manabase consisted largely of dual lands and fetches, with 1 or 2 basics and some mutavaults. Fill out the deck with the obvious core slivers, as well as aether vials, brainstorms, forces, dazes, and plows, and you had yourself a Countersliver deck.
More recently, with the printing of a variety of new rainbow lands and efficient slivers, the deck has evolved into a full-fledged 5-color deck that eschews cantrips, plows, and non-Force counterspells in favor of cramming in as many good slivers as possible. Most notable has been the repeated success of Daniel Nunes with lists very much like the following:
Nunes "All-In" Slivers
3 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
1 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Plated Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
2 Unsettled Mariner
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Karakas
1 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Sunbaked Canyon
1 Waterlogged Grove
Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Containment Priest
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Force of Negation
2 Harmonic Sliver
3 Leyline of the Void
A modern update of the more traditional Countersliver build would look something like the one below. What makes it "traditional" is the complete lack of red, a high blue count, and the barebones fetch/dual/basic engine facilitating the inclusion of Brainstorm. The manabase is surprisingly robust. Any island + rainbow land casts every 2cc spell in the deck. With full sets of dazes and forces, this list packs a good amount of disruption.
Traditional Countersliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Realmwalker
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Unclaimed Territory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's CAge
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Plague Engineer
3 Rest in Peace
2 Force of Negation
And here is a UWGR variant that forgoes Hibernation Sliver for Cloudshredder Sliver.
Jeskai Countersliver
3 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Unsettled Mariner
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Unclaimed Territory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Force of Negation
2 Submerge
1 Invasive Surgery
And finally, if money is tight, you can start with the following list and work your way up to the Nunes "All-In" list.
Budget Slivers
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Unsettled Mariner
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
3 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Aether Vial
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Plains
1 Island
Sideboard:
4 Containment Priest
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Dismember
The Manabase
You want to run 20 lands, give or take. Start with 4x Cavern of Souls, 0-2x Karakas, 0-4x Mutavault/Wasteland. For the rest of it, you have two choices: 1) fill up with more rainbow lands, or 2) cram in a fetch/dual engine so you can run Brainstorm. Look to the above lists for examples of both strategies.
The order of preference for rainbow lands is Cavern of Souls >>> Unclaimed Territory > Sliver Hive > Ancient Ziggurat. Why Unclaimed Territory over Sliver Hive? Because Unclaimed Territory can name "Humans" for your hatebears out of the sideboard, and because you will *never* use Sliver Hive's tertiary ability in competitive Legacy play.
As for Mutavault vs Wasteland, it's a matter of debate. Mutavault is a natural fit, but Wasteland is also good for all the reasons you'd expect Wasteland to be good. One observation I'll make is that Unsettled Mariner + Wasteland = good synergy. In any case, pick one or the other and run with it.
Maindeck Choices
Aether Vial: Put your slivers into play uncounterably and play combat tricks on your opponent. Automatic 4-of.
Crystalline Sliver: Still the MVP. Listen to your opponent groan as it comes into play. Automatic 4-of.
Hibernation Sliver: Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects, as well as acting as sort of a poor man’s Crystalline. Also useful for dealing with Jitte, Deathtouch, Griselbrand, and other annoyances.
Unsettled Mariner: This changeling gladly joins your hive and provides a bit of maindeck disruption against targeted removal, burn, tendrils of agony, and the like.
Sinew Sliver/Muscle Sliver/Predatory Sliver: Lordy lordy, them slivers are beefy! Make room for at least 8.
Cloudshredder Sliver: A 2-drop that gives your hive flying AND haste? Yes, please.
Galerider Sliver: Flying breaks stalemates and delivers the coup de grace. Automatic 4-of.
Striking Sliver: A nice one-drop that gives your hive first strike. Don’t knock it.
Sidewinder Sliver/Plated Sliver: More one-drops to round out the curve. Both are solid, if not spectacular. Which one is preferred depends on your metagame.
Force of Will: Puts the "counter" in countersliver.
Brainstorm: Only viable if you're playing a fetch/dual manabase to support it. In fact, if you're playing fetches and duals but not Brainstorm, then what are you doing?
Ponder: If Brainstorm is the best cantrip, this is easily the second best one. In some situations, it's actually better, as it allows you to potentially look at 4 fresh cards when searching for the thing you need.
Swords to Plowshares: Again, only viable if you're playing fetches and duals. This card would be a secondary reason to do so. You probably don't want to play any more than 2 or 3 plows, and 0 is perfectly acceptable.
Daze: In years gone by, this card was a staple in the deck. Its purpose was to help stick turn 1 aether vial or turn 2 crystalline sliver, and to buy you an extra turn against combo decks. It can still serve that purpose. However, you need to actually be playing islands for it to work. I wouldn't advise it in builds that run fewer than 8 islands or ways to fetch islands.
FAQ
Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand?
A: A tricky question. If you have a vial and can play it, then probably yes. Otherwise, it depends. Sometimes you can get by with making one-drops for a couple of turns until you draw out of it. Sometimes you get wastelanded to death or take too long to find another land. Them's the breaks.
Q: Merfolk does is better.
A: That isn't a question. I can tell because there isn't a question mark at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?
Q: What happens if I attack with flanking, and my opponent blocks with Ice-Fang Coatl or Baleful Strix?
A: The deathtouch creature dies before it can deliver damage. Your creature survives, but is still blocked.
Q: Does flanking stack?
A: Yes.
Q: Does Unsettled Mariner's effect apply to cards that say "without paying its mana cost?"
A: Yes.
Q: Does Unsettled Mariner's effect apply to spells that "can't be countered?"
A: Yes, but they can safely ignore the effect.
Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana?
A: It's too difficult to cast. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable.
Q: Slivers are the coolest!
A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.
Tournament History & Proven Lists
mtgtop8.com (https://www.mtgtop8.com/search) <-- Select Legacy format and search for decks with maindeck Crystalline Sliver
hareruyamtg.com (https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/result?pageSize=&eventName=&formats%5B3%5D=3&archetypeIds=&dateFrom=&dateTo=&capacityFrom=&capacityTo=&card=Crystalline+Sliver&player=&eventName=)
Credits
Chris Lennon (Volt)
James Hammer (Pinder)
Brian Crownhart (Maverick676)
John Thomas (xsockmonkeyx)
Gordy Goetz (Tosh)
Sam Blau (Kronicler)
and the rest of Team InfoNinja.
Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who coined 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.
References & Additional Reading
Who's the Beatdown? (https://articles.starcitygames.com/premium/whos-the-beatdown/)
The Secret Life of Slivers (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/secret-life-slivers-2004-03-10)
A Sliver Story (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/sliver-story-2004-03-08)
Sliver Me Timbers (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/sliver-me-timbers-2004-03-08)
Sliver Anatomy (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/sliver-anatomy-2006-12-12)
Prisoner of the Skep; or, How I Encountered the Slivers—and Lived to Tell the Tale! (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/uncharted-realms/prisoner-skep-or-how-i-encountered-slivers%E2%80%94and-lived-tell-tale-0)
Tales from the Crypt Sliver (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/tales-crypt-sliver-2013-01-31)
Take the Sliver Quiz! (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/sliver-quiz-2015-04-29)
Sliver Pâté (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/sliver-p%C3%A2t%C3%A9-2013-07-01)
This Hive is No Mos Eisley (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/serious-fun/hive-no-mos-eisley-2014-06-24)
A Sliver of a Chance (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/sliver-chance-2013-08-16)
A Sliver of Direction (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/sliver-direction-2019-05-22)
Slivers (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/davidwright-05252018-slivers)
Deck of the Day: Modern Slivers (https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/mtg/channelmagic-articles/deck-of-the-day-modern-slivers/)
Treasure Cruisin' Pauper Slivers (https://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/49710-treasure-cruisin-pauper-slivers)
Modern Slivers with Modern Horizons (https://blog.blacklotusgo.com/modern-slivers-with-modern-horizons/)
Slivers Through History (https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2019/06/slivers-through-history/)
10 Strongest Cards for a Sliver Commander Deck (https://www.thegamer.com/magic-gathering-strongest-silver-commander-deck-cards/)
How to Sideboard
Much of your sideboard will be devoted to combo. In matchups where Force of Will is good, you want to increase your blue count after sideboard, or at the very least don't reduce it. Avoid siding out any of your "lords," i.e. Sinew/Predatory/Muscle. Most of the time, you'll be siding out things like Sidewinder, Striking, and Cloudshredder. Against the unfair decks, I tend to side out Cloudshredders first, as the one-drops smooth out your mana curve and generally do more for your clock.
Matchups
Under construction. If you want to help out with this endeavor, let me know in the replies.
Generally, slivers do well against most “fair” decks, and so-so to poor against “unfair” decks.
RUG Delver: positive/favorable
Countersliver is about a 60/40 favorite here, give or take. If your opponent opens with turn 1 Delver, strongly consider Forcing it, especially if you're on the draw or have a slow start. Cavern of Souls is a juicy Wasteland target for your opponent, so keep that first Cavern in your hand until you're going to use it. If you're also playing Wasteland, you generally want to try to keep your opponent off red. However, I've found that using your first turn to waste your opponent's land is usually a losing play, as they have probably either cantripped or summoned a creature. If they used their first turn to play a volcanic island and bolt you, then go ahead and waste it, because they probably kept a subpar hand and their big plan is to play Dreadhorde Arcanist or Tarmogoyf next turn. Otherwise, spending your first turn wasting their land is likely just going to solidify their lead. Better to develop your board instead.
Burn: negative/unfavorable
This is a bad matchup, something like 70/30 against you, unless you're running maindeck Chalices. It's made worse by the fact that you probably don't have much help in your sideboard. Your best bet is to slow them down with Mariners, apply quick beats, and Force whatever you can along the way. Try to minimize your exposure to Price of Progress by fetching basics if you have them, and not playing non-basics that you don't need. If you're running Wasteland, play them out and keep them untapped so you can waste your own lands in response to Price of Progress.
Khamul
12-05-2015, 08:47 PM
Welcome in the new thread, fellow Hivelords!
Fitting for the new start, I fiel like I've never had this much fun before while playing Magic ^^
This weekend is Nebraska's War in Italy, one of the biggest European Tournament weekends, and I got 10th out of 103 in the Trial for the Legacy Main Event tomorrow :D
The List I ran was - as I suggested - a Merfolk-like take on Slivers. I really loved it <3
Creatures (28):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (11):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
Lands (21):
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
Sideboard (15):
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
2 Negate
2 Flusterstorm
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
The Tournament was 7 rounds and then Top 8, which I obviously couldn't participate in.
Round 1 against Nicholas with Aggro Loam: 2-1
Game 1 I mulled to six and kept a mediocre Hand. After he started strong I conceded with him only seeing a Misty. Game 2 I simply spammed the board protected by Crystalline. Game 3 was close - after he discarded Crystalline Turn 1 and followed up with a turn 2 Liliana, I crawled back on Top of 2 Vial, a Hibernation and a Predatory, soon to be followed by a RiP and a Chalice on 2 (of which both didn't survive for long), staring at a Knight with Maze of Ith and no Lands to tutor up Depths for the Combo kill. When I finally drew more Slivers, I could overwhelm him.
Round 2 against Frederico with Grixis Delver: 2-0
Both very uninteractive Games. He won the Die roll, started both Games with T1 Deathrite into T2 Pyromancer, after which he dazed all my Slivers despite them being uncounterable through Cavern, just to get Tokens.
Round 3 against Andrea with Miracles: 2-0
Lost the Die roll again, oh well. He forced my Turn 1 Vial and didn't play anything else for the rest of the Game die to me slamming a Chalice on 1 Turn 2, except for a last effort Jace to bounce a Sliver. Didn't even buy him a turn. Game 2 it was Turn 2 Crystalline into Turn 3 Hibernation backed up by Lords, and I was able to Force a Terminus. These Games were over really quick.
Round 4 against *didn't note the name* with Sneak & Show: 2-1
Really nice guy, we had a lot of fun. I lost the Die roll again, and died to a Turn 2 Griselbrand. Game 2 I assembled a fast clock, and when he finally got a Griselbrand in, I copied it with Image from a Vial, he had to chumpblock, and I drew into a lot of cards, killing him. Game 3 was similar, only with a Containment Priest and a few Pyroclasms getting involved in the fun, making this Game 3 an extremely close one.
Round 5 against Lukas with Storm: 0-2
This guy ended up winning the Tournament. I finally won the Die Roll, but had to mull to 5 both Games into hands with no interaction. Game 2 I also made a silly misplay by countering the wrong Spell :/
Round 6 against Lorenzo with Merfolk: 1-2
Yeah, it really hurt to get pushed out of the Top 8 by the bigger brother. This Matchup feels like one of those that depends strongly on who wins the Die roll - which I lost.
Round 7 against Luca with Storm: 2-1
Lost Game 1, built a strong counterwall Game 2, and was really lucky Game 3 that he fizzled under a Chalice @0, while he had a Xanthid Swarm to blank my Countermagic.
I was really impressed by the Manabase, never had any problems casting my Slivers. What was a Problem, on the other Side, was keeping UU open to double counter against Storm or Sneak Show. Because of that I'll try replacing the Negates in my board with Meddling Mages - especially against Storm I can put one Cavern on Human, easing her Manacost a bit. Creatures are easier to cast than Instants, with all those Caverns ;)
The rest of my board seems fine to me.
Syphon Sliver never did anything meaningful the whole Day, and I got suggestions to replace it with Darkheart Sliver, because this one should be faster. Currently, Syphon's staring, but Darkheart might at least be worth some consideration.
Have fun Slivering :P
Chronatog
12-05-2015, 10:13 PM
Legacy Countersliver
"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
Great prime on Slivers! Thanks a lot for refreshing and summarizing information on the deck. Like this new illustration of Crystalline Sliver, by the way :).
Would like to share a few thoughts:
Mutavault will not be able to block Progenitus as Progenitus has protection from everything.
Winged Sliver still can be a good choice because of its mana cost - 2cmc. In case of using Chalice of the Void (most likely with one counter) and having no Cavern of Souls in play, we won't be able to cast Galerider Sliver. And in most cases our Aether Vial will be set for two. So we would be able to cast or sneak into play Winged Sliver much easier and it can be a great surprise at the end of Declare Attackers Step.
Perhaps, it makes sense to add this link http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Slivers to help unfamiliar with the Rath block players understand the history of Slivers. Just for gameplay fun :).
Welcome to the new digs, guys! Make yourselves at home.
Thanks, Chronatog, for catching my error regarding Mutavault and Progenitus. I will update the primer.
I have some tournament results to report, myself. I went to my local Saturday night Legacy tournament at Time Vault, in downtown Portland, OR. Kind of a light crowd tonight, only 11 players, but they were all pretty solid, with pretty solid decks. This place basically is the Portland Legacy metagame, as far as I can tell. I decided to give ol' Chalice Slivers a go. Here's the list I ran:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
SB:
3 Containment Priest
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Submerge
1 Vapor Snag
The sideboard wasn't ideal. I threw it together at the last second. Anyway, on to the games.
Round 1 vs Sneak and Show.
G1: I don't know what he's playing. He mulls to 5, and I think "yay!" He casts Show and Tell on turn 2. I don't have Force. He drops Emrakul into play. There's no way I can deal with that, so I scoop.
G2: His hand is slower this time. He does eventually cast Show and Tell again, dropping Emrakul into play again. However, he's at 10 life, and I'm able to swing with my sliver team and punch through exactly 10 damage.
G3: I get quick sliver beats. Around turn 4 or so, he taps out to play Sneak Attack. It resolves. On my turn, I play Pithing Needle. Has has the force. Damn. I swing with my team, bringing him down to 1 life, and pass the turn. On his turn, he sneaks Emrakul in to play and swings, bringing me down to 4 life and wiping my entire board. I have an Aether Vial in hand, but no land. I top-deck a land and play Aether Vial. He draws nothing for the next few turns, until I vial in a Crystalline and kill him with it. Whew!
Never saw Chalice, but 1-0
Round 2 vs UR Splinter Twin combo
So, um, yeah, he was playing an updated version of the Splinter Twin deck from Modern. I lost to it 2-0. Kind of embarrassing. Moving on...
Never saw Chalice, now 1-1
Round 3 vs Tin Fins
G1: On the first turn, he plays Mox Diamond, Probes me, then therapies the Force out of my hand, then dark rituals Liliana into play. A couple turns later, I scoop.
G2: I didn't do anything special. His deck just kinda shit on itself, and I won.
G3: I land Containment Priest on T2 and ride it to victory.
Again, no Chalice. Zero Chalices in 3 matches, but I'm 2-1.
Round 4 vs Burn
G1: I land turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 Chalice (about friggin time!) and coast to victory.
G2: He Smashes my early Aether Vial, then lands a Sulfuric Vortex the turn before Syphon Sliver was going to hit the board. I get him down to 2 life, but he burns me out.
G3: This looked bad. I mulled to 6 and kept a 1-land hand with Aether Vial. It stuck for 1 turn before he blew it up with an Ingot Chewer. I had 1 land and a Galerider in play, but Crystalline and lots of muscle in hand. I needed to topdeck a land NOW. Luckily, I did. Crystalline hit the board, followed by Sinew, Sinew, and I outraced him.
And that was it. I finished 3-1.
Comments: I saw one Chalice in 11 games, but it was amazing in that one game. Syphon Sliver almost mattered in one game, but otherwise was a no-show as well. I've really liked it in my on-line playtesting, but it was a non-factor tonight. I was pretty happy with the manabase. I upped the land count to 22, and included a couple of Ancient Ziggurats. The Ziggurats don't help with casting Chalice, obviously, but otherwise work pretty well. They're actually the best lands for casting hate-bears in games 2-3.
Kind of a weird night as far as my draws, but a pretty decent result. Way too small a sample to make any sort of determination as to whether Chalice > Brainstorm in this deck.
ED: Nice job on your tournament result, Khamul!
Just to chime in, here is my latest build
1 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mana Confluence
2 Reflecting Pool
2 Tundra
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
1 Winged Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Æther Vial
4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Containment Priest
I still don't know whether the mana base with fetch+blue dual lands is better than the one I use:
- You might get flooded a bit more with my mana base (but I believe that the odds of drawing a business card instead of another land when it matters is after fetch n°3 or 4) but you will be able to fully use Mutavault (more likely to at least), every turn.
- You are stifle proof with mine
- I dunno what mana base is best for playing a hatebear oriented sideboard.
Keep rocking guys !
I can tell you that I've tried Reflecting Pool before, with very mixed results. I suspect you'll find them unsatisfactory over the long haul. And pain lands? Man, I dunno. Good luck, though.
mistercakes
12-06-2015, 12:31 PM
why not cut 1 pool, 1 zigg and play 2 more confluence? is the life that important in this kind of deck outside of the burn matchup?
why not cut 1 pool, 1 zigg and play 2 more confluence? is the life that important in this kind of deck outside of the burn matchup?
As a matter of fact, yes.
Hibernation Sliver is no joke and you end up using a lot its ability.
@ Void:
The 2 reflection pool are outstanding right now (I think 2 might actually be the best number to not be screwed):
- you have very little odds to open a starting hand with the 2 of them and with so many rainbow lands your chances to be screwed by a wasteland are also pretty low.
- as a matter of fact RP are rarely "wastelanded", so any rainbow land draw put you right back in the game.
mistercakes
12-06-2015, 06:28 PM
As a matter of fact, yes.
Hibernation Sliver is no joke and you end up using a lot its ability.
@ Void:
The 2 reflection pool are outstanding right now (I think 2 might actually be the best number to not be screwed):
- you have very little odds to open a starting hand with the 2 of them and with so many rainbow lands your chances to be screwed by a wasteland are also pretty low.
- as a matter of fact RP are rarely "wastelanded", so any rainbow land draw put you right back in the game.
forgot about hibernation, good point.
drawing 2 reflecting pools shouldn't be the only concern. drawing reflecting pool + mutavault can also limit you, there will be games when you only draw 3 lands, and if the only color producing land is wastelanded, that would be a bad way to lose.
I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
The main thing to figure out at this point seems to be exactly how to fill out the rest of the manabase, once you get past 4 Mutavault, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Sliver Hive. Ziggurats are pretty good, except you can't use them to cast Aether Vial or Chalice. I'm running 2 at the moment, but looking for better options. I doubt pain-lands are the way to go, but maybe it's the best of a bunch of less-than-ideal options.
Also, I'd like to suggest that 22 might be the correct number of lands to be running, given our complicated color demands, lack of cantrips, and the amount of Wastelands in the format.
I've updated the primer to include some discussion of Brainstorm vs Chalice.
I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
The main thing to figure out at this point seems to be exactly how to fill out the rest of the manabase, once you get past 4 Mutavault, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Sliver Hive. Ziggurats are pretty good, except you can't use them to cast Aether Vial or Chalice. I'm running 2 at the moment, but looking for better options. I doubt pain-lands are the way to go, but maybe it's the best of a bunch of less-than-ideal options.
Also, I'd like to suggest that 22 might be the correct number of lands to be running, given our complicated color demands, lack of cantrips, and the amount of Wastelands in the format.
I've updated the primer to include some discussion of Brainstorm vs Chalice.
1) I'm running the 4th Chalice in the Board (instead of my lone Thalia). I don't know what to cut MD to play the 4th and I'm not sure the deck needs that kind of commitment.
2) Ziggurat does not tap for Mutavault (as well). And this is rather annoying (this explains why I play only one).
3) Pain lands are pain lands. I lost between 2 and 3 lifes on average using them. The earlier you get them the more they will hurt you (but fixing color is key). With your manabase, I would try -1 Ziggurat +1 Pain land/Undiscovered. It will ease casting chalice T2 (and echoing post board). I believe we can sustain no more than 2 pain lands.
4) Playing a blue dual lands + fetch manabase might be the best choice in a vacuum but this has to be tested:
- against stifle decks
- against merfolk
- against bloodmoon decks
- against burn
- against the meta
I feel the key for Slivers to be T2 /1,5 lives within the manabase configuration; if we don't resolve a slivo per turn in the very first turns, we are doomed.
We could proceed like that to determine the best manabase:
What is mandatory to be cast ?
T1= Vial / Galerider
T2= Chalice / Hibernation / Crystalline (lords might not be mandatory here)
Etc...
5) I got flooded a bit last week-end playing my former 21 lands build (-2 horizon canopy +1 Trop +1 undiscovered paradise). So definitely a 22 lands config seems to be a "tad" much. To be explored anyway with 4).
I actually upped my Brainstorm build to 21 lands a while ago, and it never felt like too many. I figured if I'm cutting Brainstorms for Chalices, I really oughta add another land. But it's basically impossible to tell the difference one land makes. You can get mana-flooded running 20 lands, and mana-screwed running 21 lands. There's a lot of statistical noise in the short term. You have to play zillions of games to get a feel for what's right. Anyway, I'm encouraged by the progress we're making.
ED: Let's discuss sideboarding strategy, particularly in regards to Chalice. When is it appropriate to side them out?
orkanelf
12-07-2015, 04:52 PM
here is my latest build
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Predatory Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Æther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
2 Submerge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
1 Meddling Mage
1 Grafediggers Cage
2 Flusterstorm
I'm still testing...
Chronatog
12-07-2015, 05:04 PM
I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
I think 3 CoV in MD and 1 in SB is a good combination. My logic is simple - mana base is an issue and it is important to resolve Vial early in the game (turn one, ideally); and many decks play around CoV anyway so I wouldn't hold to it as a lifesaver.
I'm still assembling my Slivers deck, so will be able to test it later. So please take my commentary as a theoretical exercise based on practical application in Merfolks.
Chronatog
12-07-2015, 05:06 PM
I actually upped my Brainstorm build to 21 lands a while ago, and it never felt like too many. I figured if I'm cutting Brainstorms for Chalices, I really oughta add another land. But it's basically impossible to tell the difference one land makes. You can get mana-flooded running 20 lands, and mana-screwed running 21 lands. There's a lot of statistical noise in the short term. You have to play zillions of games to get a feel for what's right. Anyway, I'm encouraged by the progress we're making.
Perhaps, if Braninstorm does not work well with CoV, we can try Impulse?
But again, if we cannot win without CoV and it is so critical to have it, perhaps we need to adjust the entire strategy?
Impulse used to see play in Countersliver, actually, back before the deck graduated to Legacy. This will be giving away my old age, but I used to play Countersliver back when it was a Standard (or Type II, as we called it back then) deck. Also, Wall of Blossoms got played in that deck, so... Yeah.
I don't think we "need" Chalice to win, at least not all the time. I mean, just look at my tournament report a few posts up. I drew it once in eleven games, which is kind of freakish, and still went 3-1 in matches. But, I mean, Chalice for 1 is such a goddamn beating against a lot of decks, especially in game 1 when they typically don't have an answer for it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind playing 3 and not 4. I mean, do we care that duplicates may be dead? As long as we resolve one, we should be favored. Delver decks, for example, just roll over and die if you stick a turn 2 Chalice. Then there's Elves, Burn, storm combo, etc. And even against decks where it's not so great, do we really think having that 4th Chalice in the main is going to be the difference between winning or losing game 1? I understand that 3 seems to be the accepted number for Merfolk decks (right?) but I'm not sure how that was arrived at.
Curby
12-07-2015, 06:55 PM
Might be time to update my sig here. I like to think my salvation sig is much more helpful, because it includes links like this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1fP-qiYh-p-vKqa70ROoKkPRdQlp5G-pHWRcdzm2ow/edit#gid=892927662
I apologize if comparisons to other decks are getting old, but I feel like I should make them as long as they're relevant.
3 Chalices main: the reason why Merfolk tends to run 3 main is because it also runs generic answer/threats in the form of Echoing Truth, Clique, Jitte, and Image. Running a fourth Chalice (1) increases the chance of opening on a pair (when you can't cast any T1) and (2) reduces the number of these arguably more generic cards that can be run (i.e. my sig). Do you really need the full playset in the main when you never need to see one one turn 1? I'd say no.
Search/sift: Merfolk has Adept and Clique to draw and replace cards. Compared to us, I'd say they're slightly more redundant (the lords, Nemeses, Images, and Cliques all provide evasive beats, the Adept will often draw into evasive beats). As a counterpoint, we have beats, evasion, protection, but they're less redundant because they only come one at a time. In other words, we might have an ideal set of 4 creatures that's quite powerful, but most random selections of 4 creatures from Merfolk will be a pain. If we're to increase the consistency of our threat package, we may need to add some search/sift to ensure we can field the correct assortment of slivers.
Second comparison would be to Death and Taxes, where all recent innovation has pointed towards splashing, and the primary reason why is for library manipulation.
And lastly, it confuses me that Sylvan Library doesn't get any love here. I would play 2 Sylvan Library before even considering the first Impulse assuming we're on a fetchland manabase.
Actually, I'd be willing to consider Sylvan Library, but you should realize our manabase isn't particularly good for casting colored non-creature spells. Especially non-blue spells. Impulse would be easier to cast, at least, but I don't think it's worth seriously considering.
Quick note on Merfolk and D&T, since you brought them up. My playtesting suggests we have 50/50 or better matchups vs both. Doesn't necessarily mean we have a "better" deck vs the overall metagame, but just thought I'd point that out.
I seem to be on the wrong/unpopular side of the Chalice debate, so I'll let it go. And by that I mean I'll try running 4, until enlightenment comes to me.
I seem to be on the wrong/unpopular side of the Chalice debate, so I'll let it go. And by that I mean I'll try running 4, until enlightenment comes to me.
Your list is running 3 !
Chalice is there because with FOW we have 7 cards that matter against fast combo G1 (which could be seen as "enough" protection for a G1 or at least not completely naked should you face a nasty T1/T2 combo deck).
Against fair decks chalice is just a mean to slow down the opponent's game's pace (At least enough for us to be able to build a lethal board).
It can also be seen as virtual cards' advantage in a deck where we don't pack any draw spells.
The main issue with Slivers is that we are (like Merfolk) a slow aggro deck. It takes time to build a board.
Blanking on average 2 cards in an opponent's hand is virtually 2 cards advantage / 2 more turns to kill your opponent.
If you take a sample hand of Slivers, you don't get to the lethal point until T6 /T7. Chalice gives us at least 2 more turns (and straight kill our opponent sometimes; that's what you get for playing unfair, niark)
Your list is running 3 !
Chalice is there because with FOW we have 7 cards that matter against fast combo G1 (which could be seen as "enough" protection for a G1 or at least not completely naked should you face a nasty T1/T2 combo deck).
Against fair decks chalice is just a mean to slow down the opponent's game's pace (At least enough for us to be able to build a lethal board).
It can also be seen as virtual cards' advantage in a deck where we don't pack any draw spells.
The main issue with Slivers is that we are (like Merfolk) a slow aggro deck. It takes time to build a board.
Blanking on average 2 cards in an opponent's hand is virtually 2 cards advantage / 2 more turns to kill your opponent.
If you take a sample hand of Slivers, you don't get to the lethal point until T6 /T7. Chalice gives us at least 2 more turns (and straight kill our opponent sometimes; that's what you get for playing unfair, niark)
I ran 3 at that tournament, yes. I was copycatting. It was the first time I had even tried Chalices in the deck, honestly. But now I'm questioning the number. My list in the primer contains 4 Chalices, fwiw.
Curby
12-07-2015, 08:30 PM
My main points were whether it would take the place of a more useful card, and how likely it is that you draw multiples without wanting to, especially early. 4 might be right, especially if those points don't apply.
Curby
12-07-2015, 09:38 PM
It makes me sad that the deck could benefit so much from Sylvan Library but can't easily support it. Another example of this increasingly being a multicolor deck that can't capitalize on being multicolor.
P.S. I wonder why we didn't run Libraries back in the day.
Poron
12-08-2015, 12:20 PM
I'm playing 3 Syphon 2 Libraries up to now.
One Island and one forest allows us to play many tricks if every other land can provide you 1 colorless..
so:
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
I fix mana with 2 Manaweft MD (they also help a lot to gain advantage of Hive) and only Crystalline/Hibernation/Syphon as non U/G creatures.
Ultrab77
12-08-2015, 01:19 PM
@Volt: why wouldn't we replace Sylvan Library with Sensei Divining Top? Synergy with COTV is bad but for the rest it is colorless and does the job
@Ralf: I'm still working on the SB why did you choose Thorn of Amethist over Thalia?
I was thinking of:
The core
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Submerge
Then to be discussed:
2 Meddling Mage (hard to cast?)
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace (or Faerie Macabre?)
2 Vapor Snag or 2 Echoing Truth
For the rest I run Khamul's deck - 1 Phantasmal Image + 1 Echoing Truth and find it pretty solid.
@Volt: why wouldn't we replace Sylvan Library with Sensei Divining Top? Synergy with COTV is bad but for the rest it is colorless and does the job
@Ralf: I'm still working on the SB why did you choose Thorn of Amethist over Thalia?
For the rest I run Khamul's deck - 1 Phantasmal Image + 1 Echoing Truth and find it pretty solid.
@ Thread:
To be honest, without card selection, I don't think 2x Sylvan Library are useful.
It dilutes your core strategy and would require 4 slots to be effective.
SL tends to be slow as well and nonbo with Hibernation Sliver and you would need a lot of shuffling effect to take full advantage of it (4/5 fetchs is not what I would call a lot ...)
From my point of view 4 hibernation + 4 Crystalline + 3 COTV are already plenty card advantage in a certain form (virtual card advantage if you prefer) and the deck does not need more of them.
@ Ultrab77
I was playing 2 Thorns + 1 Thalia. This has evolved into 2 Thorns + 1 COTV.
I think we are all testing different SB config. Thalia may make a come back but I still have to assess the general sideboard tables before making any other move.
Yet, I'm a proponent for the heavy oriented hatebear sideboard strat.
Here are a few remarks:
- Submerge is a card for Tempo deck. Without Daze, Pierce, Wasteland, I think our Sliver version is no longer a tempo deck. Don't get me wrong, this does not mean that the card is bad or that the card won't win you any game but alas, the card is too narrow and I'm not afraid of green creature or deck playing "forest". I want something that has a broader application than Submerge.
- Playing 1 CMC spell in a COTV build is asking for troubles. As we have basically no card selection, drawing those cards in the wrong order can screw you big time.
- I don't think Harmonic Sliver deserves 3 slots anymore. With 2 truth SB, 2 Harmonic seems enough (stone decks are on a low trend).
SDT: Aside from being a non-bo with Chalice, which is probably reason enough not to play it, it's not something we can really get on-line until several turns into the game. We want to spend the early turns tapping out to play slivers, not spending mana to twiddle a top. Also, most of the lists we've been discussing more recently are only running ~4 fetchlands, which diminishes SDT's utility.
Sylvan Library would be better, because it dodges Chalice, and no further investment is required beyond the initial 2cc. But as previously noted, our manabase just isn't very good at producing colored mana for non-creature spells. The focus has been on streamlining the deck to simply churn out slivers.
I am kind of curious about Poron's list, which has apparently been tailored to support Sylvan Library, and eschews Sinew Sliver. I'm guessing it looks like this?
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Manaweft Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
2 Sylvan Library
3 Chalice of the Void (???)
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
Heh. I only just noticed Ralf's ninja post.
I'm also a proponent of the hate-bear strategy. Here's what I came up with when I was tinkering with my sideboard last night.
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Echoing Truth
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
1 Darkheart Sliver
The Revokers might become Meddling Mages or Thalias. I'm also going to reconsider the Submerges.
Rest in Peace is fantastic, but might need to be Faerie Macabres, as Ralf advocates, just because of color issues. Although I should mention that at the last tournament I played, I brought in Faerie Macabres against Tin Fins, and the guy ended up Probing me, saw a Macabre in my hand, then dropped Pithing Needle on it. They can also just get Therapied out of your hand right before the guy's about to go off. So, I dunno.
Rest in Peace is fantastic, but might need to be Faerie Macabres, as Ralf advocates, just because of color issues. Although I should mention that at the last tournament I played, I brought in Faerie Macabres against Tin Fins, and the guy ended up Probing me, saw a Macabre in my hand, then dropped Pithing Needle on it. They can also just get Therapied out of your hand right before the guy's about to go off. So, I dunno.
RIP is the better card.
But whether RIP is better than Faerie has to be assessed.
As a matter of fact, I'm not sure we really need to shut off graveyard strategy entirely.
Punish ? well we have Crystalline + Hibernation + Lords.
Dredge ? RIP > Faerie maybe or not ? I feel I can just race. We can also fow the dread return and block to death to remove bridges. Faerie seems to be sufficient and faster.
Rea ? RIP might be too slow, can be dazed, spell pierced, FOWed... Faerie seems to be better (faster and uncounterable) here.
Loam ? Yeah here RIP is better. It shut off completely the loam engine until removed.
So, all in all, it is your call to make. But in a slow deck (by design), having an instant gravehate (coupled with other slower hate cards) against very fast & unfair deck is an overall better call (IMHO).
PS: COTV is another hate to graveyard strategy usually. It should either wreck your opponent or give you enough time to draw a counterpiece (should it be a Priest, a Faerie, a MM etc...)
That all makes sense. In a vacuum, I think I would prefer RiP overall. Unfortunately, my current Chalice Slivers list only has 6 lands that fetch or tap for white mana that can be used for non-creature spells. So, that probably rules RiP out.
That all makes sense. In a vacuum, I think I would prefer RiP overall. Unfortunately, my current Chalice Slivers list only has 6 lands that fetch or tap for white mana that can be used for non-creature spells. So, that probably rules RiP out.
Just try out another manabase.
Mine is not perfect, yet but with some help, who knows...
Building a rainbow manabase is hard but higher the risk, higher the reward.
Once the coast is clear I can tell you it will be very fun & maybe more powerful than the blue one:
- turning off stifle is good
- no islandwalk
- not impacted by hate cards that usually deal with hatebears (massacre for example)
You have here 3 good reasons (that I can think of right now and maybe a fourth one if we succeed to make a rainbow manabase that gives us an overall better chance to play our colored slivers/hatebear) to go for a non fetchable blue manabase.
Here are the only cons I can think of right now:
- a bit more floods
- not having a basic in the deck (Burn/Blood Moon/the early waste that wrecks a hand you should not have kept anyway...)
Just some food for thoughts.
Ultrab77
12-08-2015, 04:44 PM
RIP is the better card.
But whether RIP is better than Faerie has to be assessed.
As a matter of fact, I'm not sure we really need to shut off graveyard strategy entirely.
Punish ? well we have Crystalline + Hibernation + Lords.
Dredge ? RIP > Faerie maybe or not ? I feel I can just race. We can also fow the dread return and block to death to remove bridges. Faerie seems to be sufficient and faster.
Rea ? RIP might be too slow, can be dazed, spell pierced, FOWed... Faerie seems to be better (faster and uncounterable) here.
Loam ? Yeah here RIP is better. It shut off completely the loam engine until removed.
So, all in all, it is your call to make. But in a slow deck (by design), having an instant gravehate (coupled with other slower hate cards) against very fast & unfair deck is an overall better call (IMHO).
PS: COTV is another hate to graveyard strategy usually. It should either wreck your opponent or give you enough time to draw a counterpiece (should it be a Priest, a Faerie, a MM etc...)
That makes sense. For BUG and Threshold decks I think RIP would be better though and it represents more than 10% of the meta (dixit mtgtop8) in comparison with rea + dredge (together 3%).
I won't be able to test it much before January for I will be travelling a lot.
That makes sense. For BUG and Threshold decks I think RIP would be better though and it represents more than 10% of the meta (dixit mtgtop8) in comparison with rea + dredge (together 3%).
I won't be able to test it much before January for I will be travelling a lot.
Dunno if RIP is better.(But are we really afraid of BUG and RUG ?)
A countered RIP grows Tarmo and they will keep their pierce against us (vial + cotv). The likelyhood to resolve that spell is...hmmm.
Anyway, this has to be tested as I am willing to give up a % win rate against these decks (if we are ahead already) to gain a few % against decks we are struggling hard if you know what I mean.
PS: Faerie also enables combat tricks. I like combat tricks !
PS 2: Oh boyzz I forgot no fetch= less food for DRS, btw...
Even if you convert all 9 of the flexible land slots (after 4 mutavault, 4 cavern, 4 hive) to undiscovered paradises, reflecting pools, horizon canopies, mana confluences and whatnot, that's still only 9 lands that will be able to produce the white mana to cast something like RiP. If I did the math right, you have about a 64% chance of drawing 1 of those 9 lands, plus at least 1 more land of any sort, in your first 8 cards. That doesn't seem good enough to me. So, I think we have to make do with bears, artifacts, and free spells.
That said, I'm going to work on reducing my reliance on fetches and islands.
Khamul
12-09-2015, 03:02 AM
Just to report back from Nebraska's War, I got annihilated at the Main Event. Worse, every loss I had was due to a misplay - mostly by fetching for the wrong Lands.
I've tweaked my List a bit more and came to this one:
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Containment Priest
Darkheart Sliver is a flex Slot. I'll try testing 22 Lands by replacing those by 1 Winged 1 Fetch anytime soon. The main reason for Darkheart is Storm, because at 2 Mana it's faster than Syphon and reads pretty much like "every Sliver on board takes you one Storm count more to win". I like that.
I don't like the lone Echoing Truth Main, because I'm not a fan of random 1-ofs in a Deck without cantrips. I even don't play it maindeck in Merfolk.
Chalice is only at a 3-of because Slivers are not a Deck that can slam a Chalice turn 1 on the play. And there are enough Decks in the Format that aren't affected enough by a Chalice @1 that comes down Turn 2 otd, imo. Btw, as kirby pointed out, Chalice fights with Crystalline and Hibernation over the "blanks Removal" Slot. I'd rather have some lifegain or the 5th flying Sliver over the 4th Chalice main.
The biggest change I've made is to my Manabase. I really wann every Sliver to be castable with fetchable Land + Sliver land (Hive or Cavern; Darkheart is not included in the current equation because he's flex, and as a 2-of not that important), and I want to have a Dual configuration so that I can have all 4 colors in 2 Duals. So Scrubland gets the Slot over Savannah, because it can cast both Hibernation and Crystalline with the help of a Sliver Land.
I'm not playing 4 Hives because I can't realistically expect to be able to activate the Token ability, and because I want more of color-producing Lands for my Sideboard.
As we've already got a Sideboard discussion started, I jump right in:
I don't agree with a Board mostly composed of Hatebears against Storm. The reason is simple: Blue count. When I look at my preboard Blue count, I sit on a healthy 20, which is just enough to support Force.
But what do I board out against Storm? The worst cards I have against Storm are the Crystallines and the Winged Sliver, because they have the least threat factor on their own. But both are Blue, so if I want to stay at a healthy Blue count, I have to bring in Blue cards. Meddling Mage is the only Blue Hatebear, so it gets Slot one, but it's hard to cast, so not more than two. Flusterstorm is an overall good card, cheap Counterspell that doesn't need that much open Mana (I had Negate in an erlier List, but it was always a Pain to hold up the two Mana) and works well with Chalice.
And no, I don't side out my Vials. They speed the clock up tremendously, even if they can be a bad Topdeck.
For Submerge, it's not supposed to be a "Tempo card" in the way that it only works with Wasteland and Daze. It's supposed to be a cheap answer to Marit Lage and, to a lesser extent, Tarmogoyf. That said, I'm thinking of replacing the Submerges with Path to Exile, but I'm hesitant because Path's a nonbo with Chalice.
Faerie Macabre over RiP seems like a fair point, but I like to keep the Loam Decks completely shut off. Lands and Aggro Loam have enough outs to Chalice (which just breaks them on two), and in these MUs I see RiP as additional Chalice with the benefits of turning the recursion off completely, and being cheaper to cast.
Ultrab77
12-09-2015, 05:44 AM
@Khamul: is that the list you took to the tournament or is that the list you would build after experience? I notice no GY hate in your SB.
What were your matches and how did you felt MD and after SB?
How would you feel with the rainbow lands vs fetch + dual combination? (Ziggurat, reflecting pool, City of Brass etc.)
As we've already got a Sideboard discussion started, I jump right in:
I don't agree with a Board mostly composed of Hatebears against Storm. The reason is simple: Blue count. When I look at my preboard Blue count, I sit on a healthy 20, which is just enough to support Force.
But what do I board out against Storm? The worst cards I have against Storm are the Crystallines and the Winged Sliver, because they have the least threat factor on their own. But both are Blue, so if I want to stay at a healthy Blue count, I have to bring in Blue cards. Meddling Mage is the only Blue Hatebear, so it gets Slot one, but it's hard to cast, so not more than two. Flusterstorm is an overall good card, cheap Counterspell that doesn't need that much open Mana (I had Negate in an erlier List, but it was always a Pain to hold up the two Mana) and works well with Chalice.
And no, I don't side out my Vials. They speed the clock up tremendously, even if they can be a bad Topdeck.
For Submerge, it's not supposed to be a "Tempo card" in the way that it only works with Wasteland and Daze. It's supposed to be a cheap answer to Marit Lage and, to a lesser extent, Tarmogoyf. That said, I'm thinking of replacing the Submerges with Path to Exile, but I'm hesitant because Path's a nonbo with Chalice.
Faerie Macabre over RiP seems like a fair point, but I like to keep the Loam Decks completely shut off. Lands and Aggro Loam have enough outs to Chalice (which just breaks them on two), and in these MUs I see RiP as additional Chalice with the benefits of turning the recursion off completely, and being cheaper to cast.
Interesting point of view.
Here is my sideboarding strategy against Storm:
-4 Vial
-2 Muscle Sliver
-2 Predatory
-1 Winged Sliver
-2 Crystalline Sliver
2 Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Meddling Mage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Echoing Truth
2 Faerie Macabre
I'm keeping my blue count @ a healthy 21.
Here are a few remarks:
1) I like to keep Syphon in as:
- It is another out to a T2 "Empty the Warrens" (I did it once and was pretty happy to race 12 Gob)
- It messes up with Tendrils if you get to resolve it
2) I don't keep Vial in (might be a mistake but I find it very slow and does not provide any kind of acceleration until T3):
- Bad draw when you have chalice @ 1, sucks in multiple
- Save Echoing Truth and Muta's activation, I'm playing a full tap strategy. And unlike D&T we don't have anything to do with our lands (save Muta's activation)
Khamul
12-09-2015, 08:23 AM
@Khamul: is that the list you took to the tournament or is that the list you would build after experience? I notice no GY hate in your SB.
Oh, I forgot to list the 2 RiP in my current Sideboard ^^ Added them.
The List I played at the Side event was posted by me on page 1. At the main event, the only difference between that list and my list now was -1 Scrubland +1 Tundra. And I had some awkward fetch situations.
What were your matches and how did you felt MD and after SB?
So, my Matches on Saturday were:
Aggro Loam: 2-1
Boarded:
otp: -4 Force, -3 Image; +2 RiP, +1 Needle, +2 Harmonic, +2 Submerge
otd: -2 Force, -3 Image; +2 RiP, +1 Needle, +2 Submerge
I like RiP in that MU, and an early Harmonic shuts off the acceleration through Mox as well as Sylvan Library. But as I'm very reliant on my own hate Artifacts and Enchantments, I don't board in Harmonic otd - here I leave in 2 Forces to be able to deal with an early Confidant or Library. Not going up to the playset of Chalice because 4 Mana is tough to reach, and until then you might just have drawn one of the three Chalices or a RiP.
Crystalline and Hibernation are, obviously, your best cards. Especially Hibernation, since the lifeloss is only half as severe against a Deck playing Grove of the Burnwillows.
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Boarded:
-2 Force; +1 Needle, +1 Chalice
Obvious choices, easy Matchup. I just have to avoid Wastelands, that's all.
Miracles: 2-0
Boarded:
-4 Force; +1 Needle, +1 Chalice, +2 Negate
(maybe leaving 2 Forces in in the new list, boarding out 2 Force 2 Darkheart for 1 Chalice 1 Needle 2 Meddling Mage)
Miracles just loathes Chalice @1, Crystalline and Hibernation make their removal seem silly. Very good Matchup. Mentor could be a problem, but you should be faster.
Sneak & Show: 2-1
Boarded:
otp: -4 Crystalline, -1 Winged, -1 Chalice; +2 Fluster, +2 Negate, +1 Needle, +1 Containment Priest
otd: -4 Crystalline, -1 Winged, -3 Chalice; +2 Fluster, +2 Negate, +1 Needle, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Harmonic
(Negate = Meddling Mage in the new List)
On the play, Chalice can at least hit some cantrips, but it's not that good against Sneak & Show. On the Draw, it's just horrible, so it goes out for Harmonic, which can at least prevent awkward Sneak Attack situations and destroy Blood Moon. Phantasmal Image is the best card, and just naming a Cavern on Human can be an incredibly great Bluff. Don't scoop to Griselbrand, because a flying blocker + bounce (hibernation) or sac (Darkheart) prevents the lifegain and therefore the card draw. Also good on the attack when he has to block with Griselbrand.
Storm: 0-2
Boarded:
-4 Crystalline, -2 Syphon, -1 Winged; +2 Fluster, +2 Negate, +1 Chalice, +2 RiP
(Negate = Meddling Mage in the new list, and Darkheart stays in the deck in the new list. Boarding out Life Gain was a mistake, even if Syphon is on the slower side. Maybe -1 Sinew, -1 Predatory instead)
The blue count really goes down in this list, but Hibernation can at least bounce itself or an Image to pitch for Force. I can still have Plan B to just go Aggro.
Merfolk: 1-2
Boarded:
-1 Force, -3 Chalice; +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Harmonic
One of the Matchups where I'd like to have some hard removal in the board. Maybe really Path over Submerge? Force can still counter their Vials or the Jitte, Chalice is worse. Harmonic deals with their Vials. Can be a bit awkward, but usually destroys theirs first or comes in as the last creature, so you don't care anymore.
With the new list having a non-Island land I can fetch into, I feel much more like being 50:50, speak: The one who goes first wins, against Merfolk. When you only have Island-based Lands to fetch into, Merfolk is favoured because they just have more evasion than you have.
Storm again: 2-1
On Sunday I played against:
Shardless BUG: 0-2
Boarded:
-2 Force, -1 Chalice, -1 Image; +2 RiP, +2 Submerge
(not sure if Meddling Mage over the other 2 Chalices would have been correct, maybe yes)
Chalice on 1 is meh, so I want it on 0 to stop Vision, all other CMCs are too diversified to really hit something. If they haven't cast any Goyfs yet, I would even try one @2.
Lost Game 1 to the nuts start of opponent otp Deathrite into Liliana into Jace.
Game 2 I fetched into Basic Island turn 1, resulting in me screwing myself as I only had fetchable lands. First time this should happen x(
Aggro Loam: 1-2
Lost game 1 to Punishing Fire, never saw a Crystalline of Hibernation. Won Game 2 and lost Game 3, again due to fetching to Island Turn 1 (feared Turn 2 Wasteland + anything too much, as I had no Turn 1 play). After my Sliver Hive got wasted, I had Tundra and Island in play, staring at a Liliana with Predatory, Hibernation and Darkheart in Hand, unable to cast any of these. Derp mode from my side x(
Grixis Delver: 0-2
Lost game 1 due to me being impatient and trading an attacking Crystalline with a Pyromancer where I could have just waited until I drew something. Didn't want him to get too many Pyromancer tokens, but waiting would have been the better option.
Game 2 I lost due to fetching to turn 1 Island again, this Time I had Island, U-Sea after one wasteland of my opponent on Cavern, not being able to play any of the Sinew, Predatory and Darkheart in my hand while my lone Crystalline Sliver was no match for Delver and Gurmag Angler.
After being 0-3 I dropped and spent a fine day on the beach.
Those derp fetches on Island showed me that I should be more brave by fetching on Duals if I have a 3rd Land in Hand, and that I should play a non-Island dual, to be able to have all colors just by fetching Duals.
How would you feel with the rainbow lands vs fetch + dual combination? (Ziggurat, reflecting pool, City of Brass etc.)
I really don't like Ziggurat, because it can't even pay for Mutavault. And I'm terribly afraid of situations where I draw Mutavault + Pool. The best solution might actually be playing 4 City of Brass and 4 Mana confluence, but the life loss is really severe against Delver Decks. I haven't tested the Rainbow land approach, and it's definitely one of the next things I'll try out.
Interesting point of view.
Here is my sideboarding strategy against Storm:
-4 Vial
-2 Muscle Sliver
-2 Predatory
-1 Winged Sliver
-2 Crystalline Sliver
2 Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Meddling Mage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Echoing Truth
2 Faerie Macabre
I'm keeping my blue count @ a healthy 21.
Here are a few remarks:
1) I like to keep Syphon in as:
- It is another out to a T2 "Empty the Warrens" (I did it once and was pretty happy to race 12 Gob)
- It messes up with Tendrils if you get to resolve it
2) I don't keep Vial in (might be a mistake but I find it very slow and does not provide any kind of acceleration until T3):
- Bad draw when you have chalice @ 1, sucks in multiple
- Save Echoing Truth and Muta's activation, I'm playing a full tap strategy. And unlike D&T we don't have anything to do with our lands (save Muta's activation)
Life Link is pretty relevant against Storm, that's why I'm currently even at Darkheart over Syphon (which can change soon, btw. But I feel more comfortable with Darkheart in the unfair matches) I boarded Syphon out because it's the slowest Sliver, and I'm unsure about boarding out Lords. Now I see that it's a mistake boarding out lifelink and agree with you that it should stay in.
For boarding out lords, you really kill their Ad Nauseam with fast Aggro starts, but I can see no other slots, other than maybe 1 Galerider.
I for my part don't like Echoing Truth against Storm at all, because it only works against Empty, a kill condition I'm naturally resilient against as I'm a swarm deck. Xanthid Swarm is annoying, but Truth just buys you a turn against it. Laying a Lord instead, making you faster might even provoke a block, if not outright kill the storm player. And with more than half of my hate being sorcery speed, Xanthid Swarm is not as backbreaking as it is for other decks.
I usually just go for a kill as fast as possible, with a Chalice @0 and Force as Backup in the early turns, and after Turn 2 I can afford leaving 1 Mana open for Flusterstorm. Vial Turn 1 allows me to lay the Chalice @1 Turn 2 while still providing a very fast clock from Turn 3 onwards, something you couldn't accomplish with a start not having Vial. Yeah, you could just lay the Chalice @0 instead, but that gives them the opportunity to Brainstorm away the Petals and LEDs, while Chalice @1 completely shuts off their cantrips. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck to find out which one's better...
Storm is a really tricky Matchup, and I really appreciate the input on that topic. It can just help everyone.
I know that I don't devote that much of my SB against Storm, but that's mainly because I went through my boarding plans and found only a few cards to board out. With the input of you all I can see what you're doing different and may be able to adapt my playstyle to a better mode. Thank you all in advance :)
mistercakes
12-09-2015, 08:47 AM
great post Khamul
Life Link is pretty relevant against Storm, that's why I'm currently even at Darkheart over Syphon (which can change soon, btw. But I feel more comfortable with Darkheart in the unfair matches) I boarded Syphon out because it's the slowest Sliver, and I'm unsure about boarding out Lords. Now I see that it's a mistake boarding out lifelink and agree with you that it should stay in.
For boarding out lords, you really kill their Ad Nauseam with fast Aggro starts, but I can see no other slots, other than maybe 1 Galerider.
I for my part don't like Echoing Truth against Storm at all, because it only works against Empty, a kill condition I'm naturally resilient against as I'm a swarm deck. Xanthid Swarm is annoying, but Truth just buys you a turn against it. Laying a Lord instead, making you faster might even provoke a block, if not outright kill the storm player. And with more than half of my hate being sorcery speed, Xanthid Swarm is not as backbreaking as it is for other decks.
I usually just go for a kill as fast as possible, with a Chalice @0 and Force as Backup in the early turns, and after Turn 2 I can afford leaving 1 Mana open for Flusterstorm. Vial Turn 1 allows me to lay the Chalice @1 Turn 2 while still providing a very fast clock from Turn 3 onwards, something you couldn't accomplish with a start not having Vial. Yeah, you could just lay the Chalice @0 instead, but that gives them the opportunity to Brainstorm away the Petals and LEDs, while Chalice @1 completely shuts off their cantrips. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck to find out which one's better...
Storm is a really tricky Matchup, and I really appreciate the input on that topic. It can just help everyone.
I know that I don't devote that much of my SB against Storm, but that's mainly because I went through my boarding plans and found only a few cards to board out. With the input of you all I can see what you're doing different and may be able to adapt my playstyle to a better mode. Thank you all in advance :)
Sure, let's keep talking about Storm as our approach is different.
1) Against Fast Combo deck, I don't try to win fast. I am rather playing the control role here.
That's why I like, the hatebear approach, better. Sure, a bunch of 2/2 is not a very impressive clock but 2 of them is already 4 lifes per turn, etc...
Losing "Lords" is not very important as long as I prevent my opponent from winning.
2) I've pondered a lot about the Chalice @ 1 or @ 0.
Chalice @ 1 is far more effective against ANT, much less against TES.
But Chalice @ 0 is my modjo.
Why ?
It just slows down the game to a pace where we can almost fairly win (by neutering the LED + IT non sense).
It also make sure that you will get to cast those hatebears to further slow him down on his other victory route (DR, DR, CR, AdN etc...)
Eventually, the more your opponent is spending turns digging, the better.
3) Reactive cards (FOW, Fluster)
These cards are hit by their conditional discard (duress) as Chalice and Thorn so we can call it even (between your version and mine).
What I dislike is that:
1) Fluster forces you to keep a blue mana open.
2) And to keep a blue mana open (meaning you won't be able to slam a threat on T2 where I don't care as I will slam my Thorn/bear/slivo anyway for example), you have to keep your vial in, so that you can still advance your game while disturbing your oppo.
This strategy is "viable" but you don't have enough reactive cards (to my taste) to fight back their discard engine.
I would further add, the reactive strategy is even worse in a deck not playing BS.
Those are the main reasons why I have forgo the reactive strategy and so why I am focusing on hatebears.
4) Meddling Mage
MM is currently in my sideboard as an experiment.
As a long time Nic Fit player, I can say that it is our "Cabal Therapy":
**You name whatever kills you**
Nevertheless, I don't like him as you will never get to see your opponent's hand (unlike the white version of Shardless for example or any esperblade). So MM is just a freaking "life insurance" that hits or misses.
Depending on the state board/hands, you will likely name the following (not ordered):
- DR
- Tendrils
- Decay
- IT
I did name Tendril last time to just get killed by DR, DR, CR, AdN -> find decay for MM, kill you with Tendril...
So MM alone does not win you a game.
I will be testing Leonin Arbiter to see whether I can get more value out of him than MM (with a wider application against many more MU).
Please also note that I truly think Canonist > MM. As you are not playing Canonist consider it before including MM (and don't raise the blue count issue because blablabla)
5) Echoing Truth
I agree ET is pretty much useless but as long as I am playing the control role, I'll pack them against Storm.
Here are a few usecases that happened to me in the past (not all with Slivers)
1) You can get a chrome mox responding to an IT (hilarious) for those storm decks that play it.
2) I hate losing to Goblins and if you don't have Syphon in hand, you have 0.01% chance to win the race (mark my words).
3) It pitches to FOW
4)"EOT bounce COTV, replay chalice @ 1 during your turn" is one of those plays that makes your oppo cry hard.
5) Bounce a hatebear/COTV/whatever bouncable to save it from Abrupt Decay
I'll be posting my sideboarding strategy for 12 MU in the next few hours/days.
Keep discussing !
Ralf
Some great discussion here, guys.
@Khamul: Thank you for the tournament report and comments. The only thing I would say about your bad day is it happens. Look for ways to improve the deck and your strategies, of course, but don't overreact to short term results, whether they're good or bad.
Regarding the manabase, we're going to struggle for a while to find the right balance. I'm not fully on board with Ralf's "play nothing but rainbow lands" idea, because there simply aren't enough good ones to make it work. That said, I think we can look a little bit beyond just Caverns and Hives, to some of the other rainbow lands that have been mentioned.
Ancient Ziggurat: Yes, it has drawbacks, which we've discussed. However, I think if you try playing just one, you'll find that it helps you a lot more often than it hurts you. After all, we do play upwards of 28 creatures. Also, this land is great for the hatebear sideboard strategy.
Reflecting Pool: Again, I think you can play one of these and be pretty happy with it. Ralf says two. I would be paranoid about drawing both of them and having clever opponents wasteland around them, leaving us with two dead lands, but maybe I should be bolder. In any case, I have no qualms about playing one, and you shouldn't either.
Undiscovered Paradise: Another great one to run as a singleton. Pain-free colored mana, with a drawback that usually doesn't matter.
So, right there, we have three additional rainbow lands you can add to your manabase, all with pretty good utility and minimal fuss. Then you could move on to painlands like City of Brass or Mana Confluence, if you feel so inclined. Personally, I'm not a fan of those, but your mileage may vary.
As for hatebears, I think I'm going to pass on Meddling Mage. As Ralf says, Canonist is significantly better. As is Thalia/Thorn of Amethyst. So, I think right this moment, I would suggest running a mix of Canonists, Containment Priests, Thalias/Thorns, and Revokers.
You can take a look at my updated Chalice Slivers list in the primer, including sideboard. I'm always tweaking my list.
Oh, and regarding the strategy for fetchlands, I think maybe we do need to be more fearless in the face of Wasteland, fetching duals more often than not. It's possible we might even want to ditch the basic island altogether. I do like having it against Burn, though. And it's probably good to have against Blood Moon decks.
Chronatog
12-09-2015, 01:50 PM
Regarding the manabase, we're going to struggle for a while to find the right balance. I'm not fully on board with Ralf's "play nothing but rainbow lands" idea, because there simply aren't enough good ones to make it work. That said, I think we can look a little bit beyond just Caverns and Hives, to some of the other rainbow lands that have been mentioned.
Since Gemstone mine and Undiscovered Paradise were suggested, perhaps Dromar's Cavern or Treva's Ruins should be considered in combination with Gemstone mine? Back in the day these lands worked well together.
Regarding the manabase, we're going to struggle for a while to find the right balance. I'm not fully on board with Ralf's "play nothing but rainbow lands"
I disagree !!!
I play 2 Tundra :-)
Curby
12-09-2015, 03:44 PM
@Khamul: Thank you for the tournament report and comments. The only thing I would say about your bad day is it happens. Look for ways to improve the deck and your strategies, of course, but don't overreact to short term results, whether they're good or bad.
Yeah, sucks to hear about the result that day but I'm sure you'll learn from it, and it's nice to know that your deck has untapped potential. To be honest, I'd rather have poor performance due to my skills than my deck. I can improve my skills with more practice, but if my deck is just plain outclassed by everything else in the room, that's a much harder problem to solve. (You can switch decks, but the goal here is to try to take Meathooks as far as possible.)
So, I thought I'd take a break from the discussion on perfecting the Chalice Slivers list and share a couple other lists I've been tinkering with.
First, there's this:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Galerider Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
Looks like a pretty standard modern countersliver list, except... Plated Sliver! A blast from the past, I know. It seems everybody couldn't get rid of this guy fast enough once Predatory got printed. What you might not have thought about is the fact that he typically speeds up your clock by a turn, sometimes two. And just watch your opponent try to figure out how to deal with your fat-ass slivers. As I used to be fond of saying, don't underrate the plate! I've actually been doing a bit of testing with this list, and it's pretty smooth.
Then there's this somewhat unusual take on an Esper Countersliver list:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Leeching Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
3 Galerider Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
Very experimental. Note the Leeching Sliver, which serves as a pseudo-lord. Since lords are in short supply in this list, we need Syphon Sliver's life gain to help us win races.
Curby
12-10-2015, 11:11 AM
Just checking: Leeching stacks? So if you have two Leeching Sliver that both attack in a turn, that's 4 noncombat damage right?
P.S. What's the deal with that artwork? Humanoid body and face ... these aren't the Slivers that I'm looking for. :tongue:
Just checking: Leeching stacks?
Yes, it does !
Yeah, in the same way that Essence Sliver's effect stacks, so does Leeching Sliver's.
Also, I totally agree with you, Kirby. These new humanoid-looking slivers are antithetical to me. Gimme back my slithery Giger-esque critters with their deadly meat hooks!
So, as promised:
Elves
-4 Hibernation Sliver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Winged Sliver
or
-2 Muscle Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-3 Phantasmal Image
-1 Sliver Hive
or
-3 Vial
-3 Phantasmal Image
-1 Syphon Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Muscle Sliver
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Meddling Mage
+2 Echoing Truth
The main idea here is to go bigger than Elves.
Remember that Phantasmal Image can be "king" or "shit" in this MU, as copying any Hoof / huge monster if you survive the attack phase might be enough to lethal strike back. But unfortunately, Image dies if it is targetted by Quirion or Symbiote.
If you see Progenitus, keep some Image. If not...hmm definitely cut it.
FOW / no FOW is something to be ferociously tested. As Elves will look for a T3 kill (T2 happens but very unfrequently), FOW might be mandatory.
Any combination of Vial + Priest/ Canonist / MM (in this order) will usually put you in a very good spot.
Chalice @ 1 will only soft lock your opponent until he can GSZ @ 3 for Sage.
At last, Vial might not be fast enough (and a dead draw) and Elves might be treated as a combo deck against us (very much likely).
Again the 3 configurations shall be tested (the last one being my preference).
Sneak
-2 Syphon Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
-1 Hibernation Sliver
-1 Predatory Sliver
-1 Sliver Hive
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Meddling Mage
+2 Echoing Truth
Pretty much self explanatory. You turn into a hatebear deck.
Hibernation should be better than Crystalline as you can chump block/attack into a resolved Griselbrand and bounce back the blocked or blocker sliver.
Numbers might have to be tweaked anyway.
Here again Vial has to be assessed. Whether we should cut it or not can only be decided after a good bunch of tests.
If Vial + Image is a deciding factor for winning a game, then Vial it is.
Temur Delver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
Here again pretty much self explanatory.
Null Rod / Pithing / Rough & Tumble could be really bad against us (vial).
RIP might be better than Macabre.
Sultai Delver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
Same as RUG.
Jund
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
Chalice is not as strong here because Jund's curve is disparate. Thorn is tremendous.
I like keeping Image (to be tested), here as copying a Bob / Lord (with Crystalline in play) forces your opponent to act.
If Image reveals to be bad, cut it and put back some Vial.
The only things you should be aware of are Liliana & Toxic.
Punishing Fire can be a nightmare if you don't have a crystalline.
If you resolve a Crystalline, the MU should be in your favor.
RIP is definitely better than Faerie Macabre, here.
Shardless
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Crystalline Sliver
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Harmonic sliver
Same as Jund.
I like to put a Harmonic here as you'll get to kill some Shardless, Library etc...
Miracle
-2 Force of Will
-1 Winged Sliver
-4 Galerider Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
-2 Sliver Hive
+2 Ethersworn canonist
+2 Meddling Mage
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Harmonic Sliver
Difficult MU.
If you see a chalice G1, you should be in a good spot.
If not the game is in Miracle's favor.
G2 and G3, you turn into a hatebear deck. Watch out for Snapcaster flash block.
Galerider forces you to overextend without presenting much of a clock, so it gets cut (even if I get that you could survive an angel attack with some in the deck)
Numbers might have to be tweaked if you want to keep some Galerider in the deck.
Try to copy your Mutavault.
Merfolk MU is better against Miracle because of the "Islandwalk" thing (no block from snap, clique etc...)
Death &Taxes
-2 Chalice of the Void
-2 FOW
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Echoing Truth
Chalice is bad against D & T (like Jund/Shardless).
FOW is not really where you want to be, save Cataclysme
If they keep Revoker in and side out Vial, I would repack the 4 FOW. Targetting Vial with Revoker might be their best play (and the one you might want to FOW) as their tax should be enough to kill you.
The rest is pretty common. Just drop Slivers and overrun the white army. Hibernation is king at keeping equipped creatures @ bay.
MUD
-3 Chalice of the Void
-2 Syphon Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Meddling Mage
- Chalice is bad against MUD.
- Syphon is not needed because usually you'll be ahead.
- Crystalline is not needed because they have nearly 0 targetted removal.
+ Containment Priest (Mess with Forgemaster)
+ Echoing Truth (tempo gain, whatever)
+ Harmonic is king against artifact decks
+ Meddling Mage can name whatever kills you (Be it a huge bomb or a planeswalker)
Infect
-2 Syphon Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-4 Predatory Sliver
-1 Sliver Hive
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Meddling Mage
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+1 Faerie Macabre
Harmonic Sliver can kill a nexus if vialed in.
Reanimator
-2 Crystalline Sliver
-2 Sliver Hive
-4 Predatory Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
+2 Faerie Macabre
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Echoing Truth
Here again Vial has to be assessed (If Vial + Image help to turn the MU).
**********************************************
Some difficult choices have been made, here, and few might be wrong.
Let's discuss and test !
To be continued (I'll add some other MU). Here are some foods for thoughts:
1) RIP might be mandatory. Faerie is pretty cheap against tempo and midrange decks. But this has to be tested before drawing any kind of conclusion.
2) I'm still not happy with Meddling Mage. Maybe Leonin Arbiter OR Suppression Field is the way to go.
Nice. Thanks, Ralf. I'm going to study this in depth later. Just off the cuff, though, what about Phyrexian Revoker as an alternative to Meddling Mage? A somewhat narrow card, I know, but it seems more useful than Meddling Mage at least. Not to mention easier to cast. Against Elves, for example, it hits Wirewood Symbiote and various other pieces. Against Sneak and Show, it hits Sneak Attack and Griselbrand. Against Miracle, it hits Top. And so on.
Also, I think there needs to be some nuance to sideboarding strategy based on whether you're on the play or on the draw, especially in regards to the Chalices. As just one example, I would probably side Chalices out against Sneak and Show when on the draw. Chalice is only so-so against them to begin with.
Ultrab77
12-11-2015, 01:58 AM
So, as promised:
Elves
-4 Hibernation Sliver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Winged Sliver
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Meddling Mage
2 Echoing Truth
Sneak
-2 Syphon Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
-1 Hibernation Sliver
-2 Predatory Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Meddling Mage
2 Echoing Truth
Temur Delver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Hibernation Sliver
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Echoing Truth
Sultai Delver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Hibernation Sliver
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Echoing Truth
Jund
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Shardless
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Crystalline Sliver
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Harmonic sliver
Miracle
-2 Force of Will
-1 Winged Sliver
-4 Galerider Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
-2 Sliver Hive
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Echoing Truth
2 Harmonic Sliver
Some difficult choices have been made (Siding out FOW against Elves for example).
Let's discuss !
To be continued (I'll add some other MU). Here are some foods for thoughts:
1) RIP might be mandatory. Faerie is pretty cheap against tempo and midrange decks. But this has to be tested before drawing any kind of conclusion.
2) I'm still not happy with Meddling Mage. Maybe Leonin Arbiter OR Suppression Field is the way to go.
Thanks Ralf.
I take your SB as a basis for the following. I would add (for MUs I face a lot in my meta)
Death and Taxes
OTD
- 3 Chalice
+ 2 Harmonic
+ 1 Echoing Truth
OTP
- 2 Phantasmal Image
+ 2 Harmonic
MUD
I face a lot of MUD in my meta. That's why I like to have minimum 3 Harmonic (also useful vs the many D&T)
OTD
- 3 Chalice
- 1 Crystalline
+ 2 Harmonic
+ 2 Meddling Mage (or Phyrexian Revoker) mainly for Ugin
OTP
- 4 Crystalline
+ 2 Harmonic
+ 2 Phyrexian Revoker (or MM)
For the rest I think Elves is a very tough matchup.
And for all the matchups you posted maybe yes RIP would be a better choice.
Thanks Ralf.
I take your SB as a basis for the following. I would add (for MUs I face a lot in my meta)
Those sideboard tables exist only to be tested and further improved.
For example, I have no idea if cutting the FOW against Elves is the right way to go. But alas we don't have enough blue to support them.
Also before splitting OTP/OTD, I think you should rather try to come up and fix these tables before making any adjustment.
I'll update my previous post with some sideboard explanations + new MU.
Khamul
12-11-2015, 05:26 AM
So, I thought I'd take a break from the discussion on perfecting the Chalice Slivers list and share a couple other lists I've been tinkering with. [...]
I'd have to test these lists before trying them out. But why a 3:2 Split of Galerider and Winged Sliver? Isn't Galerider universally better? Or do you do this because of Vial?
Leeching Sliver is not bad... But I have my doubts if it's good enough in Legacy. I used it as a SB Card in Modern Slivers against Decks with infinite Creatures. It's more like pseudo-evasion than a lord. And, of course, it works best with Vigilance (Sentinel Sliver) and Regeneration (Sedge Sliver), both cards we don't (and shouldn't) play in Legacy.
Sure, let's keep talking about Storm as our approach is different.
1) Against Fast Combo deck, I don't try to win fast. I am rather playing the control role here.
That's why I like, the hatebear approach, better. Sure, a bunch of 2/2 is not a very impressive clock but 2 of them is already 4 lifes per turn, etc...
Losing "Lords" is not very important as long as I prevent my opponent from winning.
I've talked to some people about my boarding plans against Storm, and while cutting Vial really hurts, I've come to the conclusion that your approach is the right one. Cutting Vials leaves me with enough Blue to reliably cast FoW and enough Slivers to still pose a Threat.
Jund
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Shardless
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Crystalline Sliver
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Harmonic sliver
I see - so your plan against Liliana Decks is cutting some Vials to reduce dead draws? Because I haven't played Slivers for that long, I'm bringing examples from Decks I'm more familiar with: In Death and Taxes, every game without Vial against Jund was already a lost one. In Merfolk, an active Vial helped like nothing else in pressuring Liliana.
I agree in Vial being a dead topdeck, but I see cutting only 1 as the better choice, so to still have a bigger chance to have one in your opening 7.
MUD
[...]
OTP
- 4 Crystalline
+ 2 Harmonic
+ 2 Phyrexian Revoker (or MM)
Why would you cut no Chalices against MUD otp? Do you want to lay it turn 1 @0 to disrupt their Mox Opal, if they play any? Because otherwise I see no reason to leave Chalice in, at all.
Those sideboard tables exist only to be tested and further improved.
[...]
Also before splitting OTP/OTD, I think you should rather try to come up and fix these tables before making any adjustment.
Well, let's see if we have an equal working ground on those sideboard tables.
So the three of us (Ralf, Ultrab77 and me) are starting from 4color Slivers with 1 Winged, 2 Lifegain Slivers, a number of Images, 3 Chalice and 21 Lands.
Our Sideboards are roughly:
2-3 Harmonic
2 Grave Hate
1 Chalice
2 Echoing Truth
6 to 8 other Slots dedicated to Combo Decks, mainly storm
Letting the differences in our individual card choices aside, this gives at least a rough number of the amount of cards to bring in in certain Matchups. So the real work here would to locate the worst cards in the Main Deck in the given MUs to know what to take out.
For better communication about the individual Matchups (as we're still a bit all over the place in this forum) I suggest we open a Facebook group, where all of those who want to give some input in Slivers can discuss their views on certain cards and other Stuff, while we can keep it a bit clearer to see and easier to focus on single MUs in single "comment chats".
Who's in for this?
Letting the differences in our individual card choices aside, this gives at least a rough number of the amount of cards to bring in in certain Matchups. So the real work here would to locate the worst cards in the Main Deck in the given MUs to know what to take out.
For better communication about the individual Matchups (as we're still a bit all over the place in this forum) I suggest we open a Facebook group, where all of those who want to give some input in Slivers can discuss their views on certain cards and other Stuff, while we can keep it a bit clearer to see and easier to focus on single MUs in single "comment chats".
Who's in for this?
I've updated the sideboard strategy with some explanations and corrections.
I don't know if I can give a hand on the FB thing since I'm not a FB user but well, if I manage to understand how it works, sure !
Interesting point about Jund:
You are keeping Vial in where I suggest to cut some.
I have played Jund vs D&T a large number of times and, my friends and I, came to the conclusion that Vial is not that much needed against Jund.
1) You are likely to face Vial hate
2) Vial is a dead draw as you correctly stated.
3) You cannot equip a vial onto an equipment (whereas any kind of threat can be equipped)
Slivers is not D&T (since we don't play any SFM package) and you might be more than correct thinking that we should keep Vial in.
To be tested !
@ Thread
The more I think about it, the more Suppression Field appears to be a hell of a deal (my version wise speaking, obviously) as a sideboard card (replacing the 2 Meddling Mage).
It annihilates fetches, DRS, opposing activated abilities while being just a hindrance to vial.
EDIT: 12 sideboard strats posted above !
The more I think about it, the more Suppression Field appears to be a hell of a deal (my version wise speaking, obviously) as a sideboard card (replacing the 2 Meddling Mage).
It annihilates fetches, DRS, opposing activated abilities while being just a hindrance to vial.
Hm. Also hits your Mutavaults, as well as the "return to hand" ability from Hibernation Sliver. Is shutting off opponent fetchlands worth it? I can see it randomly winning games, but seems a bit dicey to me.
The one I keep looking at is Cursed Totem. Shuts off the Elves deck, Griselbrand, DRS, various D&T creatures, and more.
mistercakes
12-11-2015, 12:19 PM
Hm. Also hits your Mutavaults, as well as the "return to hand" ability from Hibernation Sliver. Is shutting off opponent fetchlands worth it? I can see it randomly winning games, but seems a bit dicey to me.
The one I keep looking at is Cursed Totem. Shuts off the Elves deck, Griselbrand, DRS, various D&T creatures, and more.
elves should be able to green sun into the come into play kill artifact/enchantment guy, but i can see cursed totem stealing some games. you can probably win the fair game vs elves, so just keep them off of natural order (or use containment priest) and it's probably okay. i haven't tested the matchup, so i may be completely off.
if the worries are combo, i'd probably recommend running thorn of amethyst. is death and taxes a problem? i might consider a first strike sliver vs them. if sneak and show is the problem, most decks that don't have great answers usually just sb ashen rider.
Basically I'm searching a replacement to Meddling Mage.
Here are the options:
- Leonin arbiter (not a very good top deck)
- Suppression field (hindrance for us as well but to what extend, if it is game on our side, poor top deck ?)
- Root maze (yeah hell of a card but really poor top deck)
Do you think of anything else valuable (I prefer something with a wide application and not a narrow one)?
Hm. Also hits your Mutavaults, as well as the "return to hand" ability from Hibernation Sliver. Is shutting off opponent fetchlands worth it? I can see it randomly winning games, but seems a bit dicey to me.
The one I keep looking at is Cursed Totem. Shuts off the Elves deck, Griselbrand, DRS, various D&T creatures, and more.
Well it is far more than that:
- Elves
- Jund
- Shardless
- D&T
- Miracle
- Combo decks
Sure the card is really powerful on T2 and could be a dead draw midgame.
But the more you are looking for game breaker cards the more you are searching for diversity.
mistercakes
12-11-2015, 12:52 PM
Well it is far more than that:
- Elves
- Jund
- Shardless
- D&T
- Miracle
- Combo decks
Sure the card is really powerful on T2 and could be a dead draw midgame.
But the more you are looking for game breaker cards the more you are searching for diversity.
dunno how useful choke is, but it's an option. what i would do is determine what are the bad matchups and good ones. try to focus on the decks that are really unfavorable and just try out the most commonly played hate cards vs those decks, the rest of the matchups, just try to play fair magic.
has anyone tried a build with 4 chrome mox, 4 chalice, 4 collected company? it might be garbage, but it could be fun. (foregoing the force of wills entirely in the maindeck)
Ultrab77
12-11-2015, 02:10 PM
Basically I'm searching a replacement to Meddling Mage.
Here are the options:
- Leonin arbiter (not a very good top deck)
- Suppression field (hindrance for us as well but to what extend, if it is game on our side, poor top deck ?)
- Root maze (yeah hell of a card but really poor top deck)
Do you think of anything else valuable (I prefer something with a wide application and not a narrow one)?
Phyrexian Revoker? Like Thalia instead of Thorn it can also hit for 2
@Khamul: I'm in for the FB page
@all: I leave to New Zealand tomorrow for 3 weeks so I will quietly think about all this and come back fresh for the new legacy season :smile:
Khamul
12-12-2015, 04:17 AM
So, for anyone who wants to enter the FB Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/880019175448367/
Hope it will prosper like our Slivers do ;)
mistercakes
12-12-2015, 01:29 PM
played vs a slivers deck today on modo in casual room. only thing of note was that he had thalia game 2.
mistercakes
12-12-2015, 02:23 PM
i was thinking about sb cards. - what do you guys feel about trinisphere?
you aren't really casting more than 1 spell per turn
pros = beats most decks and if you're ahead with a vial the game is likely over (even without needing wasteland)
cons = you don't get an opportunity to play force of will for free, but can still be played for 3 mana. it's also much much worse on the draw.
i'd like to hear some thoughts on it, i'm going to run 2 for testing in my sb.
I'm not sure, MC. I suppose it would be great if it followed an Aether Vial. You'll have to let us know how it works out for you.
Btw, a sideboard suggestion I have for everyone is Karakas.
Btw, a sideboard suggestion I have for everyone is Karakas.
Can you be more specific ? I fail to see the overall greatness of such a card in our SB as I find it too narrow.
You're a smart guy, Ralf. I think you can figure out how and when Karakas might be useful. Yeah, it's "narrow."
Moving on.
I took a Brainstorm Slivers list to my local Saturday tournament last night. Went 2-2. Lost to Canadian Thresh and Infect. Beat Grixis Delver and D&T. Felt like I had horrible luck in both of the matches I lost. Lost G1 to Thresh when I mulled to 6, kept a 1-land hand with Brainstorm, missed on the Brainstorm. SCOOP. Lost G3 when he got two quick goyfs, beat me down to 4 life before I semi-stabilized for a while, but couldn't mount any real heat. Ended up digging about 25 cards deep into my deck without drawing a single Crystalline, Muscle, Sinew, Predatory, or Syphon. I was whittling him down with a Galerider, Hibernation, and Plated, but he finally bolted me to death. Ugh. Frustrating. Against Infect, I mulliganed both games, got off to really slow starts, and couldn't really disrupt what my opponent was doing. He always had multiple Invigorates and one more Force of Will than I had. I really wanted Submerges in both of those matches. They're going back in my sideboard, no questions asked.
Against Grixis Delver, I won G3 (and the match) thanks to Syphon Sliver. We were taking turns swinging at each other with our respective teams. His team was bigger, with a Gurmag, and a Pyromancer with a small swarm of tokens, but my dudes were flying and had lifelink. Advantage me. Afterward, my opponent commented that it seemed like a bad matchup for him. The D&T match basically came down to my opponent not being able to deal with my big, invulnerable slivers.
Plated Sliver was good all night, but I think I'll drop the count to 3 and add back a Muscle Sliver. If I were doing it over again, this is the list I would take:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
1 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Karakas
You're a smart guy, Ralf. I think you can figure out how and when Karakas might be useful. Yeah, it's "narrow."
Moving on.
Wasn't trying to be a dick.
Sorry if you took this comment that way. But, actually this was a real question. I don't pretend "seeing/knowing" everything and I might have missed something with Karakas.
Thanks for the report.
Keep playing Slivers !
PS: I'll be on a 2 weeks holiday next friday and might put up quite a few games with Slivers (and tweak it). I'll let you know afterwards !
mistercakes
12-13-2015, 03:00 PM
You're a smart guy, Ralf. I think you can figure out how and when Karakas might be useful. Yeah, it's "narrow."
Moving on.
I took a Brainstorm Slivers list to my local Saturday tournament last night. Went 2-2. Lost to Canadian Thresh and Infect. Beat Grixis Delver and D&T. Felt like I had horrible luck in both of the matches I lost. Lost G1 to Thresh when I mulled to 6, kept a 1-land hand with Brainstorm, missed on the Brainstorm. SCOOP. Lost G3 when he got two quick goyfs, beat me down to 4 life before I semi-stabilized for a while, but couldn't mount any real heat. Ended up digging about 25 cards deep into my deck without drawing a single Crystalline, Muscle, Sinew, Predatory, or Syphon. I was whittling him down with a Galerider, Hibernation, and Plated, but he finally bolted me to death. Ugh. Frustrating. Against Infect, I mulliganed both games, got off to really slow starts, and couldn't really disrupt what my opponent was doing. He always had multiple Invigorates and one more Force of Will than I had. I really wanted Submerges in both of those matches. They're going back in my sideboard, no questions asked.
Against Grixis Delver, I won G3 (and the match) thanks to Syphon Sliver. We were taking turns swinging at each other with our respective teams. His team was bigger, with a Gurmag, and a Pyromancer with a small swarm of tokens, but my dudes were flying and had lifelink. Advantage me. Afterward, my opponent commented that it seemed like a bad matchup for him. The D&T match basically came down to my opponent not being able to deal with my big, invulnerable slivers.
Plated Sliver was good all night, but I think I'll drop the count to 3 and add back a Muscle Sliver. If I were doing it over again, this is the list I would take:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Echoing Truth
thoughts on necrotic in sb for show and tell decks?
The idea being to drop Necrotic into play off Show and Tell, then spend 3 mana to vindicate your opponent's Griselbrand/Emrakul/Omniscience? Nice thought, but I'm not sure you can count on having the 3 mana.
Necrotic Sliver is one of those sliver cards that they just missed on. If they had made just a little more efficient, it would be playable.
orkanelf
12-13-2015, 06:00 PM
Hey
I tryed out to play Phantasmal Image. First I was skeptical but now I love him! Also I changed my Manabase and now its much more brainstorm and Daze proofed. Now I m less aggrassive but with more Countern, kombo Proofed.
My list:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Island
SB:
2 Submerge
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Meddling Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dismember
Looks solid, Ork, though I have a couple comments. Black is your scarcest color, so 2 Underground Sea seems odd. Also, you should always start with 4 Predatory Sliver, then add in however many Muscles and Sinews you can. It matters in the Merfolk matchup, and (god forbid) the mirror match.
orkanelf
12-14-2015, 06:13 AM
Jea but my Split is better against Cabal therapy, Meddling mage of surgical extraction...
Khamul
12-14-2015, 09:07 AM
thoughts on necrotic in sb for show and tell decks?
Necrotic is really, really, REALLY slow. If I was to put cards in SB just for Sneak & Show (what I do), it'd be Containment Priest. For Slivers, you could try out Constricting Sliver, which can just absorb the Shown and told Fattie. Doesn't work against Sneak Attack, obviously, but that's what Vial is for :wink:
Necrotic is really, really, REALLY slow. If I was to put cards in SB just for Sneak & Show (what I do), it'd be Containment Priest. For Slivers, you could try out Constricting Sliver, which can just absorb the Shown and told Fattie. Doesn't work against Sneak Attack, obviously, but that's what Vial is for :wink:
I'm trying to imagine my opponent's face as his Emrakul gets choked out by a Constricting Sliver, lol.
An old standby hate card for Show and Tell is Gilded Drake. Works fairly well for us, given the 2cc cost.
And if I may pile on Necrotic Sliver just a little bit more before we let it go, I think it says something that even when you get to dump it into play for free (ala Show and Tell), it's still probably too "slow." I've often pondered what exactly it would take to make that card actually playable. I think you would have to reduce both the casting cost and the activation by 1.
Curby
12-14-2015, 12:56 PM
The problem with a too-cheap activation cost is that you can start blowing up lands (even basics) for just 2 mana. But I'd be ok with blowing up non-land permanents for :2:. :cool:
The problem with a too-cheap activation cost is that you can start blowing up lands (even basics) for just 2 mana. But I'd be ok with blowing up non-land permanents for :2:. :cool:
Yeah, that's fair. Non-land permanents it is. I like it. Who do I talk to at Wizards? lol
Also, join our Facebook page if you haven't already, Kirby.
orkanelf
12-15-2015, 06:28 PM
My answer against Show and Tell shit ist my mainboard Phantasmal Image, and my counter count ;-)
Chronatog
12-15-2015, 10:33 PM
My answer against Show and Tell shit ist my mainboard Phantasmal Image, and my counter count ;-)
If you plan to use Phantasmal Image to copy a creature that your opponent brings to the class, you won't be able to do so because both creatures enter the play simultaneously and instantly and Image will not have a valid target to copy (assuming, no other creatures in play). And Gilded Drake will work beautifully fine both with Show and Tell and with Vial on two.
If you plan to use Phantasmal Image to copy a creature that your opponent brings to the class, you won't be able to do so because both creatures enter the play simultaneously and instantly and Image will not have a valid target to copy (assuming, no other creatures in play). And Gilded Drake will work beautifully fine both with Show and Tell and with Vial on two.
That's correct regarding Phantasmal Image and the timing of Show and Tell. You would have to play it or vial it in afterward. I'm not sure if the matchup warrants devoting slots to Gilded Drake, though.
... But, actually this was a real question. I don't pretend "seeing/knowing" everything and I might have missed something with Karakas.
It's all good, Ralf. My thinking goes along these lines. As a one-of, Karakas can be tacked onto whatever package of sideboard cards you bring in to counter decks that like to cheat legendary creatures into play. It isn't an absolute solution by itself, particularly against Griselbrand, but it's certainly another nuisance your opponent has to deal with. Also, not to be overlooked is the fact that it's another source of condition-free white mana for casting RiP and/or hatebears from the sideboard, as needed.
orkanelf
12-16-2015, 05:34 AM
Jean but i planed to bring it with the vial, imagine he would play Sneak attack with the Show and tell, my Image would be senseless.
Hataraxy
12-29-2015, 06:20 AM
Hi all,
I run this list at this moment on cockatrice :
4 Aether Vial
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Heart Sliver
3 Diffusion Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Harmonic Sliver
3 Containment Priest
And I have been very happy with its results. I think Sliver is at least a 2.5 tiers. I play it a lot. Yesterday, I won versus Miracles, Storm, Junk, Faeries, Grixies Delver and lost versus Tin Fins and Burn. Believe me that Sliver is a strong deck.
I can explain my list's choices if anyone want. I'm just not sure about the Diffusion Sliver.
Sorry for my english.
Darklingske
12-29-2015, 08:34 AM
3 Heart Sliver
3 Diffusion Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Lead the Stampede
I can explain my list's choices if anyone want. I'm just not sure about the Diffusion Sliver.
Could you explain these choises? I understand that you want backup for Galerider, but isn't 3 Winged too much? Also, why not Collected Company instead of Stampede?
Hataraxy
12-29-2015, 09:47 AM
Hi Darklingske,
After one year of testing, it appears to me that 7 flying sliver are the right number. This is the sliver you always want, the more important. It's like islandwalk in merfolk : 8 aren't too much. And often the games that I lose are those one I can't fly above a tarmo or else. You absolutely want your slivers to be unblockable, because each deck can put a bigger creature than yours.
Collected Company costs 4, make card advantage of 2 and isn't synergic with vial. Lead costs 3, make a CA of 3 or 4 most of the time and is perfect with vial. Choice is made.
I think Hibernation Sliver is better than Diffusion Sliver.
James718
12-31-2015, 09:00 AM
Also, why not Collected Company instead of Stampede?
Collected company seems sweet in this deck. Maybe as a two of. It can be used as a battle trick to put instant speed slivers on the field. Why hasn't anyone else mentioned it?
worldsaverinc
12-31-2015, 09:59 AM
I am a magic player on the whole who got in around the time of Journey to Nyx after a very very brief foray into magic around Onslaught/Mirrodin. I am currently playing a Gbw Modern Lead/Messenger/Company deck and looking to purchase modern Slivers. How this relates to legacy is that I am interested in Legacy as one of my friends play it and it seems very different from Modern especially since I love casting creature and turning them sideways to win. So, I have been looking at a Legacy deck to test the waters like I did with modern which was a RG budget Shamans deck. I found Legacy has Slivers and it looks like overall to be a cheaper and better conversion to legacy then the Collected Company Elf deck. I have looked at Elves and is very expensive, the fact that it doesn't play with other decks isn't really that relavant to me at this time. This is a budget Countersliver deck I think, how would it do since it is based off of that small tourney win on MTG top 8
The Deck that is a starting off point
Lands
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Mana Confluence
Creatures
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Hunter Sliver
3 Hibernation lsiver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Manaweft Sliver
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard
3 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
1 Hunter Sliver
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pything Needle
1 Syphon Sliver
What do you think for a Budget List?
That looks pretty solid for a budget list, worldsaverinc. Of course, a few of those cards aren't really "budget," but if you got em, play em. I do have a few comments. First, you might find those Phantasmal Images difficult to cast at times, as you really only have 8 lands for them (I'm excluding Caverns from that count, since you will rarely be happy about naming "Illusion" when you drop one). Also, you might find you need some Winged Slivers to complement those Galeriders. And, finally, your blue count is dangerously low for Force of Will. I'd try to get it up to at least 16. Good luck!
Ultrab77
01-02-2016, 09:05 AM
Hi all,
I run this list at this moment on cockatrice :
4 Aether Vial
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Heart Sliver
3 Diffusion Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Harmonic Sliver
3 Containment Priest
And I have been very happy with its results. I think Sliver is at least a 2.5 tiers. I play it a lot. Yesterday, I won versus Miracles, Storm, Junk, Faeries, Grixies Delver and lost versus Tin Fins and Burn. Believe me that Sliver is a strong deck.
I can explain my list's choices if anyone want. I'm just not sure about the Diffusion Sliver.
Sorry for my english.
Hi Hataraxy,
I have a few comments about your list.
1. Hibernation Sliver is in my opinion our 2nd best sliver (maybe the best) for Miracles, Lands, Goyf matchups. Definitly remove Diffusion.
2. I know Lead the Stampede is a must in Modern decks like Elves but in Legacy the card advantage seems relevant only vs BUG decks. Maybe some countermagic would be more adapted in this spot (Fow, CotV) since you already have more than 30 creatures
3. How is Heart Sliver working? With only 4 cavern and Vial to cast it?
4. Your SB seems very Storm targeted, can you develop a bit your plan? I'm more thinking about my SB now since I feel comfortable with my MB Chalice plan
Hataraxy
01-03-2016, 04:58 PM
I totally agree that Hibernation is better than Diffusion, it was a mistake.
LTS is a very good card against midrange and control, is ok against aggro and a pretty one against combo and tempo. I tried chalice in this slot and it was fine as good as LTS. It might be a solution too, but the thing is that chalice slows our aggro in being casted turn 2 in place of a sliver. Force seems to me weaker because we have not 40 blue cards as merfolks, and most of the time one force in a game isn't enough to stop a combo or another key card.
Heart sliver isn't a problem for me, I always cast it. But if we play Hibernation and add Black to our mana pool, I think that Leeching is better than Heart because playing 5 colors is still a hard thing.
The sideboard against combo :
Canonist and chalice against storm, elves, high tide, omnitell, burn.
Priest against dredge, reanimator, elves, sneak show
I was hesitating between : meddling mage, thalia, canonist, spirit and gaddock, but canonist seems the better one against all combos.
James718
01-06-2016, 11:51 AM
Do you guys prefer the brainstorm version or the chalice version better?
In the chalice version, do you guys run fetchlands? I noticed on the primer that chalice slivers doesn't but in may of the lists here you guys do use them.
Is there anyway to get get advantage here? Glimpse of nature? Has anyone tried collected company? It just seems that once we run our hand out, we are out of gas and at the mercy of topdecking.
I prefer Brainstorm to Chalice myself, just because there are matchups where Chalice is basically dead. Also, tapping out on turn 2 for Chalice, only to have it countered, is such a huge tempo loss. But I still consider Chalice Slivers to be experimental at this time, and other contributors in this thread might want to argue in favor of Chalice over Brainstorm. As for running fetchlands with Chalice, there's nothing terribly wrong with that. The fetchless list in the primer is simply an attempt to reduce exposure to Stifle. As for card advantage, you can try things like Sylvan Library, Standstill, etc, but really, this is a deck that is built more around the idea of virtual card advantage than actual card advantage.
On another note, I've been tinkering with an Esper list lately, with a simplified manabase, and more cantrips, removal, and countermagic. Down side: It's a bit toothless. You can check out the Esper list in the primer, if you're curious. It's a work in progress.
James718
01-06-2016, 04:15 PM
As for card advantage, you can try things like Sylvan Library, Standstill, etc, but really, this is a deck that is built more around the idea of virtual card advantage than actual card advantage.
On another note, I've been tinkering with an Esper list lately, with a simplified manabase, and more cantrips, removal, and countermagic. Down side: It's a bit toothless. You can check out the Esper list in the primer, if you're curious. It's a work in progress.
I think the sylvan library or standstill can work, but i gues them being countered would also be a huge tempo loss as well? Have you Tried CoCo?
I checked out the Esper list, not enough slivers for me, and at that point I would just rather play a stoneblade deck.
Curby
01-06-2016, 06:57 PM
On another note, I've been tinkering with an Esper list lately, with a simplified manabase, and more cantrips, removal, and countermagic. Down side: It's a bit toothless. You can check out the Esper list in the primer, if you're curious. It's a work in progress.
I keep posting something to this effect, so maybe I'm sounding like a broken record. It's useful to keep in mind though:
Slivers is a case study in card slot efficiency. Spell-heavy aggro-control decks like Team America and Delver often only play a dozen creature threats, but they're individually powerful in efficiency (Goyf/Delver), size (Goyf/Angler), evasion (TNN/Delver), card advantage (Bob/Clique/Snapcaster/Stoneforge), or width (Pyromancer/Mentor). Many actually boast several of these benefits. Legacy creatures are good enough that fielding any 1-2 should be enough for a quick win when backed with protective and disruptive spells.
With that in mind, a proposal to commit more slots must be strongly justified if a deck is to be effective. Existing examples include the combo-like Elves and Goblins, Death and Taxes where the creatures slow you down as they kill you, and the multiple-angle Merfolk that can win via size or evasion.
My concern with Slivers has been, and continues to be, the fact that you need a lot of them for it to make sense, both in the deck and on the battlefield. I'm not surprised that you want to add spells for more utility. At the same time, I'm not surprised that adding those spells weakens the army in important ways. It comes down to how Slivers work, and how that reality intersects with the idea of card slot efficiency.
Enough on the theory side, now to actual matchups:
How does the Brainstorm strategy deal with unfair decks? A big reason why Merfolk went to Chalice is because it can only afford to run about 12 interactive/disruptive cards (Jitte/Dismember/Clique/FoW/etc) with negligible library manipulation. Its spell options simply can't stand toe-to-toe with decks bristling with library manipulation and disruption, so it salts the earth with Chalice instead.
Similarly, I had thought that Chalice would be the only way Slivers could hope to compete with the established unfair archetypes. The alternative would seem like it would result in matches like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJQXA7yoVM8 Hope springs eternal for non-Chalice builds though, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
Hataraxy
01-07-2016, 09:15 AM
How about Warping Wail in Slivers ?
Ultrab77
01-08-2016, 05:04 AM
How about Warping Wail in Slivers ?
Yep, with my build I have 9 sources for <> (4 Cavern, 2 Hives, 3 Mutavaults) and therefore 70% to have one source in the first 7, 75% after 1 draw and 83% after 2 draws.
On Merfolk topic a comment suggested the card as an answer for the following:
Delver: kills DRS, delver, pyromancer, counter hymn
Shardless BUG: kills DRS, stryx, counter hymn and visions
D&T: kills MoR, Thalia, SFM, Flickerwisp
Elves: kill elves and counters GSZ/NO
Storm: counters infernal tutor, discard and PiF
Miracles: kills clique, snapcaster, counters Terminus/council judgement
Lands: counters Loam, Gamble
Painter: kills painter
Reanimator: counters reanimate, exhume, discard
I play 2 Echoing Truth MD now but I could consider switching for WW.
Ultrab77
01-17-2016, 08:13 AM
So, as promised:
Elves
-4 Hibernation Sliver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Winged Sliver
or
-2 Muscle Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-3 Phantasmal Image
-1 Sliver Hive
or
-3 Vial
-3 Phantasmal Image
-1 Syphon Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Muscle Sliver
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Meddling Mage
+2 Echoing Truth
The main idea here is to go bigger than Elves.
Remember that Phantasmal Image can be "king" or "shit" in this MU, as copying any Hoof / huge monster if you survive the attack phase might be enough to lethal strike back. But unfortunately, Image dies if it is targetted by Quirion or Symbiote.
If you see Progenitus, keep some Image. If not...hmm definitely cut it.
FOW / no FOW is something to be ferociously tested. As Elves will look for a T3 kill (T2 happens but very unfrequently), FOW might be mandatory.
Any combination of Vial + Priest/ Canonist / MM (in this order) will usually put you in a very good spot.
Chalice @ 1 will only soft lock your opponent until he can GSZ @ 3 for Sage.
At last, Vial might not be fast enough (and a dead draw) and Elves might be treated as a combo deck against us (very much likely).
Again the 3 configurations shall be tested (the last one being my preference).
Sneak
-2 Syphon Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
-1 Hibernation Sliver
-1 Predatory Sliver
-1 Sliver Hive
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Meddling Mage
+2 Echoing Truth
Pretty much self explanatory. You turn into a hatebear deck.
Hibernation should be better than Crystalline as you can chump block/attack into a resolved Griselbrand and bounce back the blocked or blocker sliver.
Numbers might have to be tweaked anyway.
Here again Vial has to be assessed. Whether we should cut it or not can only be decided after a good bunch of tests.
If Vial + Image is a deciding factor for winning a game, then Vial it is.
Temur Delver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
Here again pretty much self explanatory.
Null Rod / Pithing / Rough & Tumble could be really bad against us (vial).
RIP might be better than Macabre.
Sultai Delver
-4 Force of Will
-1 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
Same as RUG.
Jund
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
Chalice is not as strong here because Jund's curve is disparate. Thorn is tremendous.
I like keeping Image (to be tested), here as copying a Bob / Lord (with Crystalline in play) forces your opponent to act.
If Image reveals to be bad, cut it and put back some Vial.
The only things you should be aware of are Liliana & Toxic.
Punishing Fire can be a nightmare if you don't have a crystalline.
If you resolve a Crystalline, the MU should be in your favor.
RIP is definitely better than Faerie Macabre, here.
Shardless
-2 Force of Will
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Aether Vial
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Crystalline Sliver
+2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Harmonic sliver
Same as Jund.
I like to put a Harmonic here as you'll get to kill some Shardless, Library etc...
Miracle
-2 Force of Will
-1 Winged Sliver
-4 Galerider Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
-2 Sliver Hive
+2 Ethersworn canonist
+2 Meddling Mage
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Harmonic Sliver
Difficult MU.
If you see a chalice G1, you should be in a good spot.
If not the game is in Miracle's favor.
G2 and G3, you turn into a hatebear deck. Watch out for Snapcaster flash block.
Galerider forces you to overextend without presenting much of a clock, so it gets cut (even if I get that you could survive an angel attack with some in the deck)
Numbers might have to be tweaked if you want to keep some Galerider in the deck.
Try to copy your Mutavault.
Merfolk MU is better against Miracle because of the "Islandwalk" thing (no block from snap, clique etc...)
Death &Taxes
-2 Chalice of the Void
-2 FOW
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Echoing Truth
Chalice is bad against D & T (like Jund/Shardless).
FOW is not really where you want to be, save Cataclysme
If they keep Revoker in and side out Vial, I would repack the 4 FOW. Targetting Vial with Revoker might be their best play (and the one you might want to FOW) as their tax should be enough to kill you.
The rest is pretty common. Just drop Slivers and overrun the white army. Hibernation is king at keeping equipped creatures @ bay.
MUD
-3 Chalice of the Void
-2 Syphon Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Meddling Mage
- Chalice is bad against MUD.
- Syphon is not needed because usually you'll be ahead.
- Crystalline is not needed because they have nearly 0 targetted removal.
+ Containment Priest (Mess with Forgemaster)
+ Echoing Truth (tempo gain, whatever)
+ Harmonic is king against artifact decks
+ Meddling Mage can name whatever kills you (Be it a huge bomb or a planeswalker)
Infect
-2 Syphon Sliver
-3 Crystalline Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-4 Predatory Sliver
-1 Sliver Hive
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Meddling Mage
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+1 Faerie Macabre
Harmonic Sliver can kill a nexus if vialed in.
Reanimator
-2 Crystalline Sliver
-2 Sliver Hive
-4 Predatory Sliver
-2 Muscle Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-2 Syphon Sliver
+2 Faerie Macabre
+1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Harmonic Sliver
+2 Echoing Truth
Here again Vial has to be assessed (If Vial + Image help to turn the MU).
**********************************************
Some difficult choices have been made, here, and few might be wrong.
Let's discuss and test !
To be continued (I'll add some other MU). Here are some foods for thoughts:
1) RIP might be mandatory. Faerie is pretty cheap against tempo and midrange decks. But this has to be tested before drawing any kind of conclusion.
2) I'm still not happy with Meddling Mage. Maybe Leonin Arbiter OR Suppression Field is the way to go.
Ralf,
Why would you board in Faerie vs Delver? For Angler? For DRS?
Ralf,
Why would you board in Faerie vs Delver? For Angler? For DRS?
Actually, it is up to you.
Against ultra fast tempo (RUG) it might be incorrect to side out all FOW if you are dying with many cards in hand.
Faerie, here, is weak (compared to RIP for example) but if you cut FOW, I think it is the "less" bad card you have access to as it can sometimes do some nasty tricks (shrinking goose, goyf, or preventing food for DRS).
The sideboard tables I have proposed have to be tested (and eventually tweaked).
The more you play the deck, the more sideboarding choices will appear crystal clear.
Once you have playtested against an archetype, just give us your feeling and what has or not worked for you and how you have improved the said MU (for example).
Ultrab77
01-19-2016, 01:54 AM
Actually, it is up to you.
Against ultra fast tempo (RUG) it might be incorrect to side out all FOW if you are dying with many cards in hand.
Faerie, here, is weak (compared to RIP for example) but if you cut FOW, I think it is the "less" bad card you have access to as it can sometimes do some nasty tricks (shrinking goose, goyf, or preventing food for DRS).
OK I was wondering if there was a special plan or trick that I had not thought of.
VS RUG I wouldn't cut all my FOW to be able protect a T2 Chalice which can just destroy them.
Maybe +2 RIP +2 Needle (Wasteland)
-2 FOW -2 Muscle
Ultrab77
02-03-2016, 02:05 AM
I will take my slivers on Saturday to the LGS monthly event (20 to 30 players expected).
After I got stuck with two fetches and no possibility to cast all my slivers I also decided to include a Scrubland.
Creatures (28):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (11):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
Lands (21):
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
Sideboard (15):
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Surgical extraction
1 Containment Priest
I was hesitating with
- 2 muscle
- 1 winged
+ 3 Daze
Also Syphon vs Darkheart is a question. I feel Syphon is better for late races vs BUG or D&T while Darkheart could be better vs Burn or Storm.
I expect to run into several D&T, Elves, Miracles and then Goblins, Lands, BUG, Sneak&Show, Dredge. Maybe Storm.
Have you guys been testing further this deck? My results online have not been that good those last days so I'm still hesitating to run Burn but it's less fun.
Khamul
02-03-2016, 03:33 PM
Have you guys been testing further this deck? My results online have not been that good those last days so I'm still hesitating to run Burn but it's less fun.
One of my problems, too. However, I'm more willing to give the Brainstorm lists a try. It's that Brainstorm helps finding the right Sliver for the right circumstances. If you're already in good shape, it's mediocre, but great for digging for stuff and shuffling away lategame Vials. I like Brainstorm especially in post-board games (and keep 3 Chalice in the board for those MUs where it's good)
Still not sure if there's any reason to run Slivers when you can also play Merfolk - On the core, it really comes down on the decision between being better vs Blue decks or sometimes losing to your own fragile manabase. And heaven forbid, cutting a color doesn't work. Without even one of those - Hibernation or Crystalline or 9+ Lords - the Deck simply doesn't work... I tried replacing Hibernation with Diffusion and cutting black, I tried replacing Crystalline with Diffusion and cutting white, I even tried cutting the green Lords and playing the full set of Images, but nothing comes even close to 4 Hibernation, 4 Crystalline, 9+ Lords :/
Ultrab77
03-02-2016, 02:50 AM
I went to the weekly yesterday (24 players) and I must admit it went poorly. A combination of misplays and manabase.
I took the following:
Creatures (24):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
1 Muscle Sliver
1 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (13):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
Lands (21):
3 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
Sideboard (15):
2 Harmonic Sliver
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Warping Wail
R1 vs D&T lost 0-2
G1 I play vial, I Fow his vial pitching a HS. He plays Revoker naming Vial. I warping wail it. I have HS and Galerider on the board. He double plays Revoker, naming Vial and HS, swords my HS and equips a Jitte. I concede.
G2 He plays Stoneforge, I warping wail it. He plays another Stoneforge and somehow manages to equip a Batterskull token with Batterskull, Jitte, SoFI. I can't find HS nor Harmonic and die.
R2 vs Storm lost 1-2
G1 Chalice on 1 is GG but I just see an Underground Sea and BS and can't decide if he's on storm or Delver
G2 I side in the 4th Chalice, can't find it and he kills me turn 3
G3 he mulls to 5, doesn't seem happy with his hand a plays a ponder. I decide to Fow it (misplay). Next turn he goes for Dark Ritual x 2 and Ad Nauseam while I watch with Fow, WW and Predatory in hand... I should have kept my Fow and won this one.
R3 vs Grixis Delver lost 1-2
G1 T1 Chalice on 1, T2 Warping Wail his Shaman, T3 I Fow his Angler and he concedes
G2 I have to mulligan (no land) keep a mediocre hand and he manages to drop 3 DoS on T2 and Young Pyro on T3
G3 I start well with Winged, Crystalline, Syphon on the board. Engineered Explosive at 2 + Lightning Bolt leave me with an empty board and his Angler and 2 Shaman finish me.
I then dropped because it was already late.
My thinkings:
- Wasteland was not so good but I didn't get into Eldrazi nor Lands (they mostly won their first rounds :tongue:)
- I could cast Warping Wail everytime I wanted to thanks to the 11 colorless lands and it was good (just used the StP capacity though)
- Still some problems to cast my slivers and mulligans due to Wasteland + Mutavault in hand
- Eldrazi are spreading, they are faster and we don't have Jitte nor TNN: we need to find some answers
- I have to work on my SB (remove Submerge, maybe add an Harmonic
- The blue count at 20 is low
I'm pretty sure I will go to the side events of GP Paris with Burn but will test the deck again in the next weeks
EDIT:
Thinking of making -1 Wasteland -1 Syphon +1 Winged +1 Sliver Hive and following SB:
1 Chalice
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Rest in Peace (or Faerie not yet decided: maybe RiP is better vs Loam and BUG)
1 Misdirection
1 Warping Wail
1 Wasteland
What do you think of Worship in the SB? For decks like Eldrazi, Delver etc. who don't expect it, the time for us to build a nice flying Army with Crystalline on the board?
LordFury
03-09-2016, 10:49 AM
So, there hasn't been much of a discussion lately, so can please someone post his or her current\latest list with sideboard? Anyone? I would like to ask a few questions, but I gotta start somewhere. Is it possible for this deck to beat eldrazi? If yes, then how?)
Curby
03-15-2016, 12:28 PM
Still not sure if there's any reason to run Slivers when you can also play Merfolk
Flavor and reminiscence. Play Slivers because you like Slivers. They're not bad ... just worse than Merfolk.
The stated goal of this thread was to make the best modern (not Modern) Countersliver deck. As I've posted many times before, Sliver creatures simply don't do enough compared to the other tribes, and too many cards that benefit Slivers also benefit Merfolk.
The only way that Slivers can pull ahead of Merfolk is if (1) truly spectacular Slivers get printed (I'm talking Crystalline-level of power), (2) no new Merfolk are printed and (3) we get better sideboard options to take advantage of our shaky manabase. The hard part is that all three are required, the first two are highly unlikely.
DanielNunes
04-04-2016, 11:17 PM
Good night, I just joined this forum to discuss slivers.
There is been two years since I started playing slivers in competitive legacy and I am very satisfied with the results. I love playing the deck and think it have a unexplored potential in legacy.
As a merfolk player and huge fan of the deck too, I disagree that it is just a better slivers deck, they are very different despite having the same lords and beatdown plan.
Slivers work pretty good in many bad matchups for merfolk like jund, elves, painter, Goblins, Eldrazi, MUD etc and have good and bad points very different than the merfolks.
Using slivers I have already done some powerfull and funny stuff that merfolk can't. Like hunting down all of opponent's creatures with Hunter Sliver, going back from a bad shape using Syphon Sliver, killing both Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite on the block with a surprise Striking Sliver via Aether Vial, dealing with a Ugin using Hibernation and Vials or simple putting opponents out of the game with some hatebear he wasn't expecting from sideboard. Sure the deck have it's difficulties but I wouldn't call it a worse Merfolk.
In generall I think that the ideal of the deck is going in heavy creatures versions. I don't think cards like brainstorm or daze fit well in the plan of the deck, you want to play as many creatures and as fast as possible in order to make the lords true valuable, builds focussed on creatures let you play a consistently mana base with no dual lands, and also using 5 colors give you acess to some very powerfull slivers like striking and hunter. Striking sliver with Venom sliver or Hibernation Sliver is really cool, since you can bounce the creature beetween the first strike and regular damage steps and Hunter sliver is insane against the majority of fair decks.
My first decklist was that one: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10661&d=260985&f=LE
After the banning of DTT and consequent reduction of Young Pyromancer decks I cutted the sidewinters for more strikings and added two venoms on maindeck. Played with something like this for a while: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11139&d=263388&f=LE
The game against fair decks costume to be good ones, some people just concede when you play crystalinne sliver through cavern of souls and basically shut down their hands full of counters and removals. Combo is the challenge for the deck, sometimes a turn 4 kill with a force of will or Karakas backup is sufficiently and the hatebears in the sideboard can help improving the game.
In the recent metagame I made some changes. Now playing with 4 striking sliver, which is very good in the eldrazi and tarmogoyf decks matchups since with it you can produce a first strike wall to defend against big monsters, 2 winged slivers in the place of the hunters to fly and use force of will more consistenly and 4 hibernation sliver maindeck to deal with miracles and other people trying to control you like shardless bug and jund. Moved the Syphon slivers to the sideboard and added a third Venom sliver into it.
I have considered playing bonescythe sliver and hearth sliver, but I don't think there is place for it in the deck. I have never tested Darkhearth sliver but think that Syphon sliver works better. As for chalice of the void, I like playing a more agressive line with more drop 1 creatures, so you can very often kill your combo opponent on turn 4, but think it is a good choice if the goal is to improve combo matchups.
I apologize if there is any grammar issues, english is not my mother language.
There is also a report I wrote six mouths ago about a tournament I was able to win with slivers. With you want to check up (in portuguese): http://insidegamestore.com.br/publico/publicacao.xhtml?pid=2309096
@LordofFury: Striking sliver is a beast against eldrazi, I often stay in a defensive first strike wall until can fly above or go bigger than the opponent. Combined with Venom Sliver things become really sweet. I've had something like 50-50 results in training against eldrazis
James718
04-05-2016, 01:43 PM
Any updated decklists? Ralf? Volt?
Ultrab77
04-07-2016, 11:39 AM
Thanks Daniel!
This is my list:
Creatures (28):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (11):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
Lands (21):
3 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
I feel uncomfortable to go with just FoW and only 18 blue cards to support it.
But maybe I should just test the full slivers version with hatebears, but I would add 2 PI to reach the magic 20 blue cards (the lower limit to my mind).
Thanks Daniel!
This is my list:
Creatures (28):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (11):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
Lands (21):
3 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
I feel uncomfortable to go with just FoW and only 18 blue cards to support it.
But maybe I should just test the full slivers version with hatebears, but I would add 2 PI to reach the magic 20 blue cards (the lower limit to my mind).
I'm really not sure we can afford playing Wasteland in such a build.
I didn't have time to make adjustments lately but I would look first at Warping Wail. It seems the card could be included in our shell since we are usually playing 4 Cavern 4 Muta 4 Sliver Hive.
My two cents.
Ultrab77
05-09-2016, 07:40 AM
Report from Xander Niazy who top 4'd a 100+ man event in Milwaukee.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/4hjhq9/milwaukee_legacy_classic_tournament_report/
List
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=102535
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Underground Sea
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [R] Tundra
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [KTK] Flooded Strand
4 [M14] Mutavault
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
3 [SH] Hibernation Sliver
3 [TE] Muscle Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [M14] Galerider Sliver
4 [M14] Predatory Sliver
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
1 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DS] Æther Vial
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
1 [CNS] Swords to Plowshares
3 [] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
Side
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
3 [RTR] Pithing Needle
3 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [PLC] Necrotic Sliver
Curby
05-11-2016, 07:06 PM
Delightfully old-school, without Sliver Hives or Chalices. I hope that success is repeatable!
Any thoughts about running exactly one Chrome Mox and one StP? I wonder if the Mox is for acceleration (faster postboard hatebear?) or mana-fixing.
EDIT: Slight vindication for:
And lastly, it confuses me that Sylvan Library doesn't get any love here. I would play 2 Sylvan Library before even considering the first Impulse assuming we're on a fetchland manabase.
Re: Volt's earlier warning, Mox and Trop make only two real green sources in the deck for Library, but I guess you only draw a Library by turn 4 in a third of games anyway.
Ultrab77
05-13-2016, 08:42 AM
Delightfully old-school, without Sliver Hives or Chalices. I hope that success is repeatable!
Any thoughts about running exactly one Chrome Mox and one StP? I wonder if the Mox is for acceleration (faster postboard hatebear?) or mana-fixing.
EDIT: Slight vindication for:
Re: Volt's earlier warning, Mox and Trop make only two real green sources in the deck for Library, but I guess you only draw a Library by turn 4 in a third of games anyway.
Yes I would suggest the following adjustments on the manabase:
-1 Tundra
-1 plains
-1 Mox
-1 Sea
+2 Cavern
+1 Fetch
+1 Scrubland
This leaves you with 1 trop + 8 fetches = 80% to have green mana for Library turn 2 and possibility to have Trop + Scrubland on the table to cast every single sliver.
Again same debate your manabase is weaker than with Hives but lets you use BS and Library with 8-10 fetches.
I would also:
-1 StP
+1 Image
and on the SB:
-3 Thalia
-1 Necrotic
+4 CotV
ThaDopestXander
05-27-2016, 02:09 PM
Waddap? I got directed here from reddit... My name is Xander Niazi and I've been playing slivers for almost 20 years... This thread is awesome and a great resource for beginners its really exciting to see people have enthusiasm for the deck... For a lot of years there I thought I was the only one! I see my list and tournament report have already been linked so I won't be redundant... I'm really glad to have been made a part of this thread I'm excited to talk slivers with y'all. Anyone feel free to hit me up whenever! Sorry if there a delay in replying I'm still figuring this site out... Lastly... Whose going to Columbus?
ThaDopestXander
05-27-2016, 02:35 PM
Delightfully old-school, without Sliver Hives or Chalices. I hope that success is repeatable!
Any thoughts about running exactly one Chrome Mox and one StP? I wonder if the Mox is for acceleration (faster postboard hatebear?) or mana-fixing.
EDIT: Slight vindication for:
Re: Volt's earlier warning, Mox and Trop make only two real green sources in the deck for Library, but I guess you only draw a Library by turn 4 in a third of games anyway.
Hello friend! Need not wonder anymore! The mox is 94% mana acceleration 5% land drop 0.089% mana fixing and nobody knows what the last thing it is, is. Okay I'm being funny... But its there to power out sick turn 1 plays such as library, crystalline, mutavault lord... Swinging for 5 on turn two is a savage clock and your using one creature to do it... And as you mentioned out of the sideboard turn 1 thalia is nasty or even slivers turn 1 chalice for 1 can be devastating. I traded a misty for it and its one of the best choices I've ever made... It's a super land, way way swingier but a land never gives u the option to ramp into something sweet and drawing a land and a chrome mox in the late game are similarly dead... iMHO the down side is minimal... I think y'all would be surprised by how many games that little lonely mox he's won me.
The trop... Yea I know it's sketchy but I wanted to test out my second basic in plains and at the time I decided I wanted the tundra... I'm not sure it's 100% incorrect but I immediately traded a tundra for trop when I got home... That being said I didn't even get close to have issues with my mana at the classic. Even got to turn one land mox pitch library play library so that was like really really supreme... The thing is the LIBRARY is the only spell that wants it, and you don't need to cast two (sure they can kill it blah blah but its non vital and if they kill tiny don't need to replace it or lose the game) so you just don't fetch the trop until you have a very good reason too use it. That strategy worked out for me...
And thanks for the love, this deck... These cards.... They're very important to me and they mean a lot to me since they've been by my side as long as I can remember.. I played back in the plated sliver days, before mutavault and cavern and sliver hive and vial... The deck never needed all these tools, and it still doesn't. The trick is finding a way to balance them so that you can reliably answer as many problems as possible while not diluting it to the point of the answers becoming ineffectual.
Sliver hive is bad... I just don't like it... It would need to make a Sliver for like 3 mana then maybe... But its just a really bad cavern of souls... Also my list is hardly even 4 c so you don't need the fixing from cavern and sliver hive so your playing those cards for their other abilities... So yeah cavern... Seems like an obvious 4 of right? Well not in my oppinion. Heres the things, cavern is actually only good against miracles... Most of the time if they are forcing one of your slivers they are forcing the wrong the spell. Cavern of souls doesn't give them the option to make this mistake... Sure sometimes you need a crystalline to resolve but most of the time you have another way... I personally love when my delver opponents force a lord... Thats so bad for them and I want them to have the chance to make that mistake to my advantage... If miracles wasn't the easiest most free roll-y match up the deck had then 4 would be great... But miracles can't beat 2 cavern so I think that's enough... If ur worried about miracles you could always play one I'm the board too...
And chalice... I suprising don't have a lot to say about that... Cards amazing can be amazing in the deck... But not my style of sliver slangin... I will give no reason other than I like to vial in thalia and I can't vial in chalice... I guess brainstorm is just insane and seeing three new cards is often enough to win with slivers.
Thanks again, anyone feel free to start a chat about slivers, I'd love to join ya
ThaDopestXander
05-27-2016, 02:58 PM
Yes I would suggest the following adjustments on the manabase:
-1 Tundra
-1 plains
-1 Mox
-1 Sea
+2 Cavern
+1 Fetch
+1 Scrubland
This leaves you with 1 trop + 8 fetches = 80% to have green mana for Library turn 2 and possibility to have Trop + Scrubland on the table to cast every single sliver.
Again same debate your manabase is weaker than with Hives but lets you use BS and Library with 8-10 fetches.
I would also:
-1 StP
+1 Image
and on the SB:
-3 Thalia
-1 Necrotic
+4 CotV
Hey so thanks for your input, but I've got some disagreements that I would like to pose respectully and for the sake of discussion...
If your cutting the tundra I would only add a trop there, and I would hesitate to decrease my island count for daze.. Turn one vial daze is back breaking for anyone and I like to minimize the chances that I don't have that option while having daze in hand.. Its perfectly reasonable to cut the mox for essentially any other land... But you'll never blow people out with a turn 1 misty... I like having advantage (obviously not of the card variety) built into my mana base... I personally believe you just give yourself a way nicer ceiling with mox and the floor is not that much lower... If it is at all... I played one basic for a long time and wasteland was just way to good against me... The island plains is huge casting 12+ of your slivers right there and thats not even mentioning the fact that lands just slaughters us and strips us outta the game... Not so much when I go basic basic RiP... When Sliver hive was first printed I obviously tested it immediately and game after game I kept wishing I had a blue mana for brainstorm or whatever... And on top of that I wanna be able to play colored spells outside of slivers in the deck so they really hindered my ability to cast them... And as you said brainstorm and library are a lot better with fetches... I actually think the brainstorm locking myself was the straw the broke the camels back for the Sliver hives....
So I'm not sure if you read my tournament report, but I traveled for the modern open and when that failed I decided to play legacy I didnt bring all my cards to Milwaukee from Colorodo and hadn't really been planning on playing it... So my deck still had 3 swords in it from some massive testing sessions and by the time I realized I only had one phantasmal image on me and I basically said well shit... Lets make do... Ideally I would be on 2 image and I'm testing more currently. But to be fair... I miss top 8 and top 4 if I didn't pack the 2 of swords and 1 of image... So its kinda odd.. I wasn't happy with the card... But it won me games... Idk need much more testing to know if a 1 of like that is possibly correct
Again the whole thalia v CotV thing is kinda a personal preference thing imho I think the fact that I value my brainstorm super highly and thalia being able to be vialed in is why I play her over chalice... But I have a set sleeved up sitting next to the SB waiting for action.... I also think if ur playing chalice there is absolutely no reason to skimp on the mox!! Just my 2 cents hope to have an awesome discussion with everyone enjoy!
Congrats on that result, Xander. That list looks fantastic.
Question: Necrotic Sliver. I read your report, and I think you mentioned using it... once? Were there other times? Is it actually worth the SB slot?
ThaDopestXander
05-27-2016, 05:39 PM
Congrats on that result, Xander. That list looks fantastic.
Question: Necrotic Sliver. I read your report, and I think you mentioned using it... once? Were there other times? Is it actually worth the SB slot?
I'm kindandrawing a blank, but if I only wrote about it one time I probably only did it once. Necrotic is a nice catch all, mana intensive sure, but sometimes you just need do destroy something harmonic can't get... I think the deck naturally lends itself to some 1 of sliver because of how many of them have diminishing returns on stacking (galerider crystalline ect) I know I'm not running a lot of 1 its but I do think a Necrotic or a syphon off the top of my head are worth the slot, I play four harmonics a lot in my local meta usually having two in the main and I basically thought of Necrotic as the fourth harmonic with a bit different utility the more I'm thinking about it that slot could potentially be used better, I'll let you know where I land on that and what I think I'd replace it with... Syphon is defiantly an all star thats absent from the list I ran there... Let me know what you would replace it with!
ThaDopestXander
05-27-2016, 05:42 PM
It makes me sad that the deck could benefit so much from Sylvan Library but can't easily support it. Another example of this increasingly being a multicolor deck that can't capitalize on being multicolor.
P.S. I wonder why we didn't run Libraries back in the day.
If you care my list is packing 2 mainboard libraries and I've played I'm null red since early 2000's they are incredible in a force of will aggro deck
Ultrab77
05-30-2016, 02:39 PM
Hi Xander,
I invited you on Reddit :smile:
So I read your answers and I will take most of your list to my weekly tomorrow (24 players - 4 rounds).
I just don't have Chrome Mox yet, did the -1Stp +1 Image and will take 3 Caverns because of a heavy Miracles meta.
Keep up the good work!
ThaDopestXander
05-31-2016, 04:16 PM
Hi Xander,
I invited you on Reddit :smile:
So I read your answers and I will take most of your list to my weekly tomorrow (24 players - 4 rounds).
I just don't have Chrome Mox yet, did the -1Stp +1 Image and will take 3 Caverns because of a heavy Miracles meta.
Keep up the good work!
Awesome!!! Thanks again for leading me here! I'd love to hear how it goes (went). I think the list I'm taking to Columbus will look very similar to that, I'm planning on running cavern in the sideboard though. I feel super torn on caverns because miracles just cannot touch me... I have not dropped a sanctioned match to miracles... Ever... So I might not even do that. The other thing I keep thinking about is Savannah... It probably requires going to 1 basic but last night out of 10 games I would have had my entire hand live 6 times if I could have gotten Savannah. I know a lot of people like trop scrub to cast every sliver but you can't fetch scrub with misty so thats my issue there. It would replace plains, chrome mox or one of the duals (so one of each) chrome mox is one I will not cut for Savannah but if anyone wanted to I wouldn't fault them. Plains is the most likely. Again let me know how it goes!!
Oh and btw I forgot to weigh in on brainstorm Vs chalice of the void in detail, so I'll plan to do that tonight or tomorrow. If its not obvious by my list, I have some strong oppinions on both cards that many disagree with. I've got some logic and math I'll share with you as to why I run my list the way I do in regards to those two cards
Until then, embrace the hum.
Xander
Curby
06-01-2016, 10:30 AM
Is Misty an availability thing? I'm wondering if running some number of Polluted Delta will help spread risk and increase chances of being able to fetch the duals you need. Back in the day we ran Strand/Delta, and were then able to grab our Scrubland when needed.
ThaDopestXander
06-01-2016, 02:17 PM
Is Misty an availability thing? I'm wondering if running some number of Polluted Delta will help spread risk and increase chances of being able to fetch the duals you need. Back in the day we ran Strand/Delta, and were then able to grab our Scrubland when needed.
Nah its not availability I've got like 20 of each fetch.... I personally am not going to play scrubland ever. I would run Savannah. I understand that scrubland casts everything but if your stuck on scrubland island times sound bad. I want to be able to fetch for island fetch for Savannah and cast everything besides hibernation. Savanaah also casts harmonic with tundra and scrubland does not. Polluted delta seems fine if your playing scrubland still but scrubland is the last land I'm trying to add. I'd probably play horizon canopy before scrubland.
ThaDopestXander
06-11-2016, 12:36 AM
Anyone at Columbus?
Ultrab77
07-18-2016, 03:07 PM
Anyone at Columbus?
Which 75 will you bring at Columbus?
ThaDopestXander
07-27-2016, 04:50 AM
Hey guys! Sorry for no posts lately. I was in a legacy grind. Managed to do well at a few. I got 11th at eternal extravaganza and had two feature matches there. If you look up tales of adventure history you could find my match against akash naidu on UB omni tell. But yeah the decks still killin it and I love it. I managed to earn 2 scg invites using only slivers decks (few modern opens with slivers.) so hopefully that can give the deck some credit, even when I'm not getting 4th I'm doing well enough to get scg points and advance! I updated my list. As I do every week. But if anyone interested I posted it to reddit. I'll add it here tomorrow or something. But yeah I remember promising you all some math to defenitivly prove that 3 brainstorms is correct. So here it is
Brainstorm math....
Actualy first one statement. This deck cannot productively cast a brainstorm until turn three, and that requires you making aal you land drops. If you have to cast brainstorm on turn one or two for any reason you made an incorrect Milligan decision and shouldn't have kept. With that being said. I don't want extra brainstorms I'm not casting cluttering up my hand while I'm trying to set up a turn 4. After I've set up I'll brain storm to find what I need to close the game. But I don't want to brainstorm to find what I need to open the game. Make sense? Anyways heres the math and I'll walk thru it
With 3 brainstorms
I worked thru this in reverse. you see how many cards are "failures" ( aka not brainstorm). if you have three copies before you draw your first card you have* 57/60 failures. After each draw the odds go 56/59, 55/58, 54/57... Etc. You then multiply each side and then divide those numbers and you get 68.4% chance that out of your first seven cards that all are failures. Or you have a 31.6% chance to have at least one copy of brainstorm in your opening hand. You can do the same equation for a card with four copies, you just begin at 56/60 and go down from there. That will result in a 42.8% chance to have a brainstorm in your opening hand. Or* 10%~ less likely chance to have a brainstorm in your opening hand with 3 copies than you are with four. Aka 1 game out of 10 that you have brainstorm in your opening hand I won't. I like those odds and heres the second part... Remember I don't want it until turn three? Let me show u my odds of having it on turn 3 vs a player with a 4 of seeing that card in their opening hand simply I am trying to illustrate the different probabilities of having a specific card in your opening hand as a 3 of and a 4 of as well as a 3 of on your third draw step vs a 4 of in your opener.. So I layed out the fractions for each card you draw like so
3 of brainstorm
57/60
56/59
55/58
54/57
53/56
52/55
51/54
4 of brainstorm
56/60
55/59
54/58
53/57
52/56
51/55
50/54
Those each represent the odds of each card you draw being a brainstorm so these fractions represent your opening hand as a 3 of and as a 4 of ...
Then I multiplied the left side and the right side and divided the sums like this
(57*56*55*54*53*52*51)/(60*59*58*57*56*55*54)
And I got 68.4% chance to not have brainstorm and then subtracted from 100% to get the percentage to have it (31.6%) as a 3 of.
I got 39.5% to have it if it's a 4 of using the same method... I'll even illustrate this too
(56*55*54*53*52*51*50)/(60*59*58*57*56*55*54)
The second part is just to illustrate the probability of having it in my hand After 3 draws, to show that with 3 copies, by the 3rd draw your just as likely to have it as someone with a 4 of is to have it in their opener. I basically just added 3 more succesion of the pattern like this
57/60
56/59
55/58
54/57
53/56
52/55
51/54
50/53
49/52
48/51
See what I did there. You make a fraction of the probability to draw a success (brainstorm in this case.) you can use this equation for any subsequent turn. You can accomadate for drawing extra cards or to figure out odd to see the second copy of a 3 of or a 4 of or a 1 of Whatever you want... in conclusion using that method, by my third DRAW STEP (not turn) I'll have a 42.8% chance to have at least one brainstorm in hand. In other words. I have a slightly higer chance to have it I. Hand by turn three than so one with 4 copies is to have it in their opener. Hopefully this isn't convoluted and makes enough sense. Ask any questions if needed!
Curby
07-27-2016, 01:51 PM
Hope not to take too much wind out of your sails, but this is not a new thing in magic theorycrafting.
You can use my spreadsheet for more of the same:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1fP-qiYh-p-vKqa70ROoKkPRdQlp5G-pHWRcdzm2ow/edit#gid=892927662
HTH :cool:
ThaDopestXander
07-27-2016, 06:07 PM
Hope not to take too much wind out of your sails, but this is not a new thing in magic theorycrafting.
You can use my spreadsheet for more of the same:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1fP-qiYh-p-vKqa70ROoKkPRdQlp5G-pHWRcdzm2ow/edit#gid=892927662
HTH :cool:
I'm aware, but apparently even on the gp circuit people don't understand this so I assume the average player doesn't so I just wanted to explain it for people who didn't understand this method. Maybe thats not anyone on this forum but a lot of people read this thread it seems. I've had a lot of people talk to me about what I've said on here and reddit, so I figured this would be a fine place to put some concrete my.here that I can point too when people want to argue with me about my deck. Haha thanks for bearing with this if you already understand all of this. Also if anyone thinks that brainstorm should be a 4 of in spite of this I'd be really curious to know why. Also sorry for the super manly typing I'm using a tablet and the combination of thumb typing and auto correct kinda makes it difficult at times.
ThaDopestXander
07-27-2016, 06:16 PM
Heres an updated list
4 galerider sliver
4 crystalline sliver
4 sinew sliver
4 predatory sliver
3 muscle sliver
3 hibernation sliver
2 phantasmal image
4 aether vial
4 force of will
3 brainstorm
3 daze
2 Sylvan library
1 Chrome mox
4 mutavault
4 flooded strand
3 Misty rainforest
2 cavern of souls
1 tundra
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 Savannah
1 island
1 plains
Sideboard
3 pithing needle
3 harmonic sliver
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 flusterstorm
4 surgical extraction
The 4th surgical could be almost whatever u want, it's Necrotic for me if I'm not playing the set of surgicals. I'm going to run 4 no matter what tho from now on. The card has made lands not only winable but it seems in my favor. I won my last four sanctioned matches against lands. Every match since Jarvis yu.... Ugh don't even get me started on that. But yeah its also really good in other match ups too, like pithing needle. I won a mulligan to 2 as scg Worcester with the hand of surgical surgical vs. Reanimatior... So that was pretty tight. Actually that match is a crazy story if u guys are interested in that lol. Alright one rambling... There's the list
Ultrab77
07-28-2016, 02:14 AM
Hi Xander,
How do you deal with burn with no lifegain and no chalice?
Often even with Syphon they are too quick (and can easily deal with Thalia).
I was thinking of switching 2 Syphon of the SB for two Darkheart.
What are your records vs Eldrazi? The Striking + Venom strategy in the full sliver version is quite effective.
Thanks
ThaDopestXander
08-02-2016, 03:43 PM
Hi Xander,
How do you deal with burn with no lifegain and no chalice?
Often even with Syphon they are too quick (and can easily deal with Thalia).
I was thinking of switching 2 Syphon of the SB for two Darkheart.
What are your records vs Eldrazi? The Striking + Venom strategy in the full sliver version is quite effective.
Thanks
i havn't been faced with burn much lately, but ive played against it once and UR price delver twice witch is a glorified burn deck. i took a devastating loss to the UR deck on camera at eternal extravaganza in round 6 to fall to 5-1. end of my turn price, untap price of the top was worth over hald my life. i followed that match with my loss to akash naidu witch ultimately knocked me out of top 8. the following round i got the UR delver deck again, that game with fetching my island and plains first i was able to race them almost effortlessly. having the two phantasmal image in the deck are great in this match up. maybe it seems counter intuitive but your already leaning hard on crystalline (sometimes its right to hold it and give you opponent the option to bolt some guys to save you some life, depending on your hand) in the matchup most of the time, and if you dont have the crystal you play the phantasmal as the final lord for the kill and hope they dont have a bolt at the ready that turn. the critical mass of lords is obviously key so even if you dont draw phantasmal image it helps just by creating that higher density of lords in your deck. i wil say that darkheart sliver is possibly, in my opinion, the third most powerful two many sliver behind crystalline and hibernation. so its absolutely fine to play that card in your sb (even a one of in the main if you feel inclined) to combat the burn decks. i dont think syphon is the better life gain option but its probably fine.
my record against eldrazi is pretty good, its hard to say exactly 6 - 3 ish is my best answer. in the classic i was able to point my swords at some relevant drazi. usually though i use flying to race and phantasmal to finish. phantasmal image coming down as a reality smasher to tip the clock is a huge boon. dont add striking sliver or venom sliver to your deck. please dont. the deck that uses those cards is a completely different deck known as all in slivers. they play closer to 12 5 color lands while i play 2. the mana base doesnt allow adding a red 1 drop, and your also asking for a 2 card combo out of the sideboard to beat one deck. like there isnt another deck i want that against. like i guess d n t but you shouldnt be losing that match up often anyways. how many of each would you play? i just dont think thats a realistic option. if you really want to beat eldrazi play 4 path and 3 necrotic. maybe even add the 3d image. you could try wasteland or something if you want but thats gonna be rough on your mana base. yeah i think just play the one mana white removal, i think path is better here for a slivers deck, and the necrotic. good luck fighting the other tribe! if i find something better for eldrazi ill bring it here, but i am focusing on preparation for the couple of invitationals ive got coming up so probably not going to be a lot of work on legacy for a bit, but there will be some.
also as a PSA DONT PLAY 1 GREEN SOURCE i had left my second trop in Colorado along with some images and surgicals and other cards. i currently prefer Savannah Savannah plus Island and plains plus trop turn your deck on hard. and those two also help against boil and choke witch are cards that people are playing lately a lot more it seems. DONT PLAY 1 GREEN SOURCE!!! it is incorrect. i honestly appologize that i didnt have my second trop ( i didnt own Savannah at the time) and that the list that got posted is not an optimal list but i had to make do and hopeful some of the people who have been playing the deck can see this and know to make that tweak. alright everyone have a good one
Ultrab77
09-07-2016, 11:20 AM
Here is the list I intend to bring to Bazaar of Moxen Paris on Saturday.
4 galerider sliver
4 crystalline sliver
4 sinew sliver
4 predatory sliver
3 muscle sliver
3 hibernation sliver
2 phantasmal image
1 winged sliver
4 aether vial
4 force of will
3 brainstorm
2 Sylvan library
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Chrome mox
4 mutavault
4 flooded strand
2 Misty rainforest
3 cavern of souls
1 tundra
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 Savannah
1 island
1 plains
Sideboard
3 pithing needle
3 harmonic sliver
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 Ethersworn canonist
2 darkheart sliver
2 surgical extraction
1 karakas
As you can see I integrated Xander mox, library and savannah for its outstanding results but I removed Daze for I prefer removal in that spot.
Main changes since my last tournament:
MB
-4 Chalice -1 Cavern -1 Image -1 Warping Wail - 1 Land
+1 Mox +3 BS +2 SL + 2 StP
SB was also changed with DH instead of Syphon and Karakas.
I feel week to Storm, Burn, Elves especially but I should get a fight for the majority of the meta (Miracles, Delver, Lands, Stoneblade, D&T, etc.)
Curby
09-09-2016, 03:41 PM
Good luck! I'm interested to hear how Darkheart performs compared to Syphon, and I'd personally go for a 7th fetch over the Mox to help optimize Brainstorm and Library, but it seems like a tight list.
Ultrab77
09-12-2016, 03:17 AM
Good luck! I'm interested to hear how Darkheart performs compared to Syphon, and I'd personally go for a 7th fetch over the Mox to help optimize Brainstorm and Library, but it seems like a tight list.
I went 4-4 and posted a report on our Facebook group.
I will definitely replace the Mox with a fetch because it's too narrow. It's a poor topdeck and I had it 3 times in my opener and twice I played a Vial on T1 and had no need of further acceleration on T2.
About the darkheart... When I sided them in it was for the sack option (vs Dredge and Lands for block-sack). I didn't play Storm or Burn.
I think the Syphon would have been a help vs Delver. I'll replace them for my next tournament and will also drop the Thalias.
SB could look like:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Syphon Sliver
1 Karakas
The numbers (2 vs 3) have to be tested. The Karakas is also very situational.
ThaDopestXander
10-24-2016, 11:45 PM
hey guys, i wanted to apologize for losing my win and in yesterday :( super close though... i think a second top 8 within the same year would have given the deck more credence than its had in years... ended up 12th. if you guys wanna check my updated list its on scg.... for those of you who dont believe in the mox, this list isnt running it. it was a meta call last minute to try and fight through the ridiculous amount of chalice of the voids were running around (still love the little guy, even though it does do nothing sometimes). the mana base is not jacked up like the last list on scg so theres that... remember though if you play the savanna you can be punished because of daze, but i do believe it helps against the waste land match ups significantly... ( ive been doing absurd amounts of testing online and out of 50 games i had one opener that i was punished for playing the savanna) i believe the side board i am running is nearly perfect, you could trim a needle and a surgical for more slots, but good luck beating lands if you do. swords to plowshares is the only card i feel the 75 is missing but im not quite sure the correct way to fit it. but come December ill be doing another 100 match (50-50) testing session so hopefully i can finally figure it out. any ideas? also, please, please please dont play syphon sliver... please... i have played the card... a lot... just please dont play it, for me. it is strictly worse than darkheart sliver, for more than one reason. firstly, our sideboard slots are strained so you cant really afford to have a card in there thats only good against one deck. in my experience i only want it against burn (ur delver i guess but thats a glorified burn deck). secondly, it is too easy to gain no value off of syphon. if they kill it before you connect it did not do what its in your deck to do. ( i know crystalline protects it, but you cant build your deck assuming you have that card because often you do not) secondly, its not trivial to get into play. if you want to cheat it in, you have to deactivate your aether vial ( that my short hand for ticking the vial up too 3 in the deck) and black is not always easy to have access too. thirdly, darkheart sliver can be super clutch against dredge, being able to exile their bridges on command is powerful. it gets vialed in on two, so your not having to deactivate it for the rest of the game. darkheart sliver is always worth 6 life points against dredge minimum. their best case scenario is to bolt it immideatly, you sac in response and they fizzle a bolt. 3 life is worth a card against burn... thats an easy 2 for 1. and finally... RK POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! amirighttt! also, slivers confirmed better tribe than eldrazi, their titans cant beat the hive... :) glad to be back guys, ill try and get more results for all you. i want yall to know, i play for you, and for the hivemind. ill get the deck the respect it deserves, whatever it takes! any whooo, hows it goin? any new tweaks on your guys end or sweet new ideas? always love the back and forth... p.s. i started streaming on twitch, user name is slivers_guy. im outta town for awhile for tourneys but once im back and with a regular schedual ill let yall know in case your interested. also gonna try and get some videos recorded for a primer and matches against some of the more popular decks on youtube. alrrright, thats it for now! catch u guys soon.
ThaDopestXander
10-24-2016, 11:48 PM
Heres an updated list
4 galerider sliver
4 crystalline sliver
4 sinew sliver
4 predatory sliver
3 muscle sliver
3 hibernation sliver
2 phantasmal image
4 aether vial
4 force of will
3 brainstorm
3 daze
2 Sylvan library
1 Chrome mox
4 mutavault
4 flooded strand
3 Misty rainforest
2 cavern of souls
1 tundra
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 Savannah
1 island
1 plains
Sideboard
3 pithing needle
3 harmonic sliver
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 flusterstorm
4 surgical extraction
The 4th surgical could be almost whatever u want, it's Necrotic for me if I'm not playing the set of surgicals. I'm going to run 4 no matter what tho from now on. The card has made lands not only winable but it seems in my favor. I won my last four sanctioned matches against lands. Every match since Jarvis yu.... Ugh don't even get me started on that. But yeah its also really good in other match ups too, like pithing needle. I won a mulligan to 2 as scg Worcester with the hand of surgical surgical vs. Reanimatior... So that was pretty tight. Actually that match is a crazy story if u guys are interested in that lol. Alright one rambling... There's the list
btw you dont need the 4th surgical i was absolutely wrong, i wouldnt play more than 3. 3 seems to be more than enough to beat lands, im 8-2 against lands since gp Columbus and one of those losses was to jarvis yu
Ultrab77
10-26-2016, 10:18 AM
Nice results Xander. What were your matchups?
Btw a dude made 27th out of 300 at the EW Paris.
List:
Creatures:33
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Venom Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
Spells:8
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Chrome Mox
4 AEther Vial
Lands:19
3 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
Sideboard:15
1 Containment Priest
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Venom Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
Thoughts?
ThaDopestXander
10-26-2016, 09:39 PM
Nice results Xander. What were your matchups?
Btw a dude made 27th out of 300 at the EW Paris.
List:
Creatures:33
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Venom Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
Spells:8
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Chrome Mox
4 AEther Vial
Lands:19
3 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
Sideboard:15
1 Containment Priest
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Venom Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
Thoughts?
nice! i hadnt seen the result for all-in! i think all in is a sweet version of the deck, the issue is its going to struggle against combo decks like omni tell. i consider this build of slivers a different deck (all-in slivers vs counter slivers) so i can easily be wrong... i have no experience with this list. but never the less awesome to see! gotta love the chrome mox's, they def have more upside with chalice. have you seen lists with chrome mox before? (besides mine obvi) i have not, i think its probably a more effective card in that deck than our build! im headed to eternal weekend this weekend, ill do my best to represent!
Hello everyone !
I have been testing xander's innovations, playing/thinking/building and reading things about the deck, mostly online, but also talked/played with/against players irl, for a few years now (started playing it when everybody was talking about putting wastelands and stifles in it haha )and here is what i have to say about the recent evolutions of the list :smile:
Chrome Mox is cool, it's a super land and we all agree that a turn one crystalline / library / chalice (!!) is great! Unhopefully, it's too random... and too often a super dead card that will make you lose an other one for it... We easily run out of gas... we don't need that...
I believe the mana base xander posted on SCG is the perfect one... It's also the one I use
4 Flooded strands
3 Misty Rainforests
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 plains
1 island
4 Mutavaults
3 Caverns of soul
I tried 19 lands... cutting a Misty... But we need shuffling effects, and we need easy access to basics to "deal" with wastelands! 20 seem comfortable... also tried cutting a cavern, but it's too good! we need to draw it!
btw also played a lot without :b:, without hibernation it's just not enough
seem also to be enough drawers... (we can't afford more hahaha)
3 brainstorms
2 Sylvan libraries (lot of love for the card)
Speaking of creatures, here are the slots I consider not removable and those that can be slightly modified. Again I align with Xanders list.
4 galeriders
4 crystallines
4 Predatory
4 sniews
3/(4?) Hibernation
2/(3?) Muscle
2/(3?) phantasmal image (3 seem to be too much... it's a great element of the deck but multiple copies in hand and nothing relevant to copy on the BF is annoying)
Also, In a build packing sylvan libraries, fetch lands, hibernation slivers and surgical extractions in SB, we lose a lot of life...
Thats one of the reason I cutted out surgical (even if it's a wonderful card to play :wink: )
The other solution is to incorporate a life gain... and i think it's needed
also, please, please please dont play syphon sliver... please... i have played the card... a lot... just please dont play it, for me. it is strictly worse than darkheart sliver, for more than one reason. firstly, our sideboard slots are strained so you cant really afford to have a card in there thats only good against one deck. in my experience i only want it against burn (ur delver i guess but thats a glorified burn deck). secondly, it is too easy to gain no value off of syphon. if they kill it before you connect it did not do what its in your deck to do. ( i know crystalline protects it, but you cant build your deck assuming you have that card because often you do not) secondly, its not trivial to get into play. if you want to cheat it in, you have to deactivate your aether vial ( that my short hand for ticking the vial up too 3 in the deck) and black is not always easy to have access too. thirdly, darkheart sliver can be super clutch against dredge, being able to exile their bridges on command is powerful. it gets vialed in on two, so your not having to deactivate it for the rest of the game. darkheart sliver is always worth 6 life points against dredge minimum. their best case scenario is to bolt it immediately, you sac in response and they fizzle a bolt. 3 life is worth a card against burn... thats an easy 2 for 1. and finally... RK POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:really: ... being able to cast / vial Syphon in late game, swing for, let's say 5, will nearly always get you the turn you need to win ... even if it has to die right after it has attacked. Or, if you are forced to play in a defensive mode... will not trading creatures with lifelink work the same way (better?) as chump blocking and sacrifice them for 3...?
+ if sylvan library is in play, you can convert your attack/defense into massive card advantage in a relatively sustainable way...
I see where Darkheart is good... I agree with what you are saying... it keeps it's promises... against dredge, against mass removal, if no crystalline are available etc... but still, sacrifice a sliver is almost never what you want to do... also, even in a built with 3 caverns of soul, in a deck that NEED :u: sources, paying :2::b:seem to be easier than paying :b::g:
Anyway, if we want to play a life gainer,I think we need it in the main deck... and there is hardly room for 1 (to trade with a phantasmal image, a muscle or an hibernation sliver) so you need to chose wisely!
I'm still hesitating at this point but my thought is : Both are not really synergetic with Hibernation sliver... but Syphon turns life gain into a threat where Darkheart kinda makes it into a consolation prize ...
btw, artwise: yes of course!! RK POST!! darkheart > syphon :laugh:
For the counterspells I also agree on this
4 force of will
3 dazes (no need to play more than 3)
And last but not least: the 4 monololithic aether vials !
I'll discuss the sideboard alongside with my list later... spoiler alert! i'm a chalice of the void guy !
Congrats for your results xander, keep up spreading the hivemind !:cool:
finally a question: how does your list goes against (punishing or not) Jund and shardless BUG? I have been struggling to beat those
mass removals/ uncounterable and recursive spells/ discard/ liliana and big tarmos makes it a difficult mu... especially when we are running Surgical extractions...
Ultrab77
11-03-2016, 10:12 AM
Xander, how went your list at the EW?
I'm more willing to test the all-in version right now. With Striking (and Venom) could be interesting vs Delver and D&T that are everywhere in Paris.
Ultrab77
11-11-2016, 06:04 AM
Hello everyone !
I'll discuss the sideboard alongside with my list later... spoiler alert! i'm a chalice of the void guy !
Hey Kude,
I'm interested in you SB choices.
We feel strong vs Miracles. We need to beat regularly D&T which is rising everywhere. We need to fight Delver (CoTV?) and Baleful Strix without first strike in the control version of the deck.
There are also those GY decks: Reanimator (UB, BR) & Dredge.
I currently run:
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
4 Leyline of the Void (those last ones because I was traumatized by Dredge and Rea)
here it goes:
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
1 Syphon Sliver? / 1 more Hibernation Sliver? / 1 Winged Sliver? / 1 more muscle Sliver? / 1 more Phantasmal Image?
4 Force of will
3 Daze
3 Brainstorm
2 Slyvan Libraries
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Meddling Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Chalice of the void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Rest In peace
(it's heavy, right?)
We are already slower and/or less stable that other agro/control decks but we do have "card quality".
Q: What slivers can do best? A: Adapt and survive to harsh conditions!
X 3 Harmonics seem reasonable, make sure you draw one to get rid of this nasty lock/combo/equipment/strix/Agent/foundry/Hulk/Sneak attack/vial/revoker / you name it... just be carefull with it...
(Thought of playing 1 necrotic... but it's way to slow and again, you almost never want to sac a sliver. )
X 3 Chalices, (most of the time set to 1 Some matchups will hate to see it on 0 and you will very rarely go to more than that) Like crystalline or hibernation, it protects you and your creatures from bolts and swords to plowshares ; kills a lot of combos... + we can play around it with the caverns and the vials...
Still, The only real drawbacks are : it 's slow , it forces you to side out brainstorms and it can make you draw unplayable cards if the sequence isn't played in the right order
Last but not least, it limits our sb options...
Anyway, I think it fits better in the deck than other less radical cards (Even if many decks have answers to it) because it's static and dangerous for many different decks
it does also helps with burn and many agro/control decks playing :1:cmc cards... Delver is still a problem mainly because of cabal therapy... and no brainstorm left...
2 revokers instead of pithing needles ... I know we can't name lands with that + it's kind of weaker to removals... on the other hand, it's a colorless creature, we can vial It or play it via cavern of soul, it swing for 2 and can be kept relatively safe if chalice is in play (the important information here is : we can play it alongside chalice without additional fear of getting stuck)
Used to play 2 Meddling Mages , but compared to the rest of the sideboard it seem to be the only card to cut out.
Still it can shut down a few key threats +it can be duplicated with phantasmal images!
and then the Bridges... i'm testing it and for the moment it work fine ! it helps against : reanimator,elves,eldrazi,Dredge, merfolk, show and tell <3 , lands.
basicaly any deck with big creatures
(It's not really good against D&T due to flickerwisp tho.)
have no remorse siding out some lords for it When in play, you just have to be patient.. you have ways to modulate your hand size and the power/toughness of your dudes via hibernation and also ways to control your draws (BS / Sylvan library) so don't worry!
It freezes the game! you just have to play carefully, counter whatever needs to be countered, eventually wait for a flyer and kill them slowly :laugh: :mad:
we easily run out of gaz so it seemed to be a good idea to turn this counterpart into something useful !+ it's a lot of fun to play (some matchups can become really grindy):laugh:
X3 because playing it and not drawing it sucks...
And finally X3 RIP
To be honest, I prefer Surgical Extraction... it's such an elegant and powerful card to play, it does plenty and it cost no mana so it fits perfectly our game plan... but it doesn't work with chalice...
I have not tested Leyline of the void yet but it seem a bit too much. if it's destroyed or if you can't find it turn 0 you will HARDLY be able to get :2::b::b: to cast it afterward
I'm not a fan of Rip either... it's sloppy and slow. but it's playable and static wich fit's the prison plan. If it resolves, it does the job.
Let me know if you have any questions about some specific matchups or interactions or just to tell me what you think of the list !
Curby
11-15-2016, 11:03 AM
Practically speaking, what do you copy with Image? If they S&T Emrakul into play, you can Vial in copy EOT then swing for the win during your next turn. In a vacuum/goldfish, your only real copy target is the Muscle/etc. slivers because everything else doesn't stack.
Instead, for better coverage and digging, and to reset the topdeck for Library, consider Eladamri's Call in your flex slot and replacing one of the Images. You can tutor up the remaining Image if you really want to copy something on the other side. Otherwise, you have a tutor to find your missing sliver.
Just 2c. Might not work.
P.S. Also works with Revoker and some other sideboard options if you choose to run creatures.
I tried playing one eladamri's call as a sigleton MD but it seemed ( :g::w: ) a little hard to cast... I 've had too many situations where I needed to cast it but couldn't reach the right color in time or the spell gets countered... An instant speed tutor is indeed a great idea here. It would free some slots in the SB and provide more regularity...
Also tried to add Homing Sliver... but the tutor effect only affect slivers which is too narrow post board and/or too slow...
Images works as part time muscle/etc slivers and they are also used to chump block a big guy on the other side... or to ensure victory on the next turn... recurrent copies are : Marit Lage, emrakul, grizelbrand, baleful strix,reality smasher,thought knot seer and sometime tarmogoyfs to name a few... it's also 2 more blue cards to pitch for force of will
Post board, being able to copy a revoker or a meddling mage is often a fine option too.
BTW Writing those long posts got me a bit tired of chalice :laugh:
testing a new SB list without chalice nor thalia atm:
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Flusterstorm
3 Ensaring Bridge
3 Pithing needle
3 Surgical extraction
More control and less prison but i believe, still able to answer to most threats correctly.
I'll let you know my thoughts...
Also, i have interest in playing Divert in SB, maybe as a singleton, in order to deal with decays etc. saw it there: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13814&d=281534&f=LE what do you think?
hymnyou
11-18-2016, 12:23 AM
Bump Meathooks! I've been doing really well with this list. I cannot remember not going at least 3-1 with this deck for sometime, I play other decks as well but this has been a lot of fun and quite strong. I have fought off pretty much every archetype, look forward to taking meathooks to a large tournament in the future.
Fighting equipment is my biggest issue so far. I think hibernation sliver is pretty weak, I'd rather just not over extend. Needle is really strong in this deck. 2 libraries is great. Galerider wins so many games- I would consider slotting in winged sliver for more alpha strikes. I'd like to put karakas in the main but since I cant tutor and moon effects are around, I am using a plains but not sold on it, I wouldn't mind 3 caverns but so far 2 has worked well. Sideboard has been great- meddling mages could be flexible but they have put in work- I am expecting more massacre in the meta so might move it out.
21
4 Sinew
4 Crystaline
4 Muscle
4 Predator
4 Galerider
1 Phantasmal Image
20
4 Vial
2 Sylvan Lib
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 FOW
1 Swords
19
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
15
4 Faerie Mcabre
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
3 Thalia
2 Meddling mage
faerie seem good... but i prefer surgical.
Not a big fan of the lone sword to plowshares. I do agree we lack of creature removal tho
tried some vapor snags a while ago, and got me some games but meh
Concerning mages I agree with you. for instance, against decks like shardelss bug that pack so many different ways to get rid of creatures... it never last long and thalia is already a target of choise... I think we should remove it ...
I have been playing without hibernation sliver for years... just play it ! good vs miracle, mass removals , spot removals if no crystalline,can be pitched to fow (from play !!), transform harmonic into a nightmare for an artefact/ enchant player. also good against lifelink, jitte and any too big creatures... pay 2 life save a sliver is almost like drawing a card. But you are free to do whatever you like :tongue:
hymnyou
11-18-2016, 10:22 AM
faerie seem good... but i prefer surgical.
Not a big fan of the lone sword to plowshares. I do agree we lack of creature removal tho
tried some vapor snags a while ago, and got me some games but meh
Concerning mages I agree with you. for instance, against decks like shardelss bug that pack so many different ways to get rid of creatures... it never last long and thalia is already a target of choise... I think we should remove it ...
I have been playing without hibernation sliver for years... just play it ! good vs miracle, mass removals , spot removals if no crystalline,can be pitched to fow (from play !!), transform harmonic into a nightmare for an artefact/ enchant player. also good against lifelink and any too big creatures... pay 2 life save a sliver is almost like drawing a card. But you are free to do whatever you like :tongue:
I prefer macabre in the current meta with B/R reanimator- chancellor locks out surgical and it still answers as much as I need it too. The single swords has been great, prob will up to two, swords is a MVP imo. Shardless is pretty much a bye, I haven't had any issue with that deck- swords actually provided alpha strike path last night by knocking out a strix. I 100% understand hibernation, I've just found it to be not as good and unnecessary, I wouldn't categorize it as a necessity for protecting the deck from its weaknesses. I think another needle and another swords would do more work than hibernation, if there was a ton of eldrazi in my meta I would consider. I feel like if you play tight and counter correctly he just doesn't offfer enough. I know the majority in this thread love the card but I'm not a fan.
hymnyou
11-19-2016, 01:52 AM
-1 muscle
+1 phantasmal image
-3 thalia
+2 retribution of the meek
+1 Flusterstorm
-2 meddling mage
+1 needle
+1 grip of phyresis
Retribution of the meek may be a very good sideboard add! me like that !
grip of phyresis sound a bit too narrow...
hymnyou
11-19-2016, 07:05 PM
Retribution of the meek may be a very good sideboard add! me like that !
grip of phyresis sound a bit too narrow...
Yea I think retribution of the meek might be solid, gonna give it some testing. Yea I think you're right about phyresis. Equipment has been the decks biggest weakness for me, and we have a lot in local meta.
Added a single Recruiter of the Guard in the MD.
- Tutor your missing: Crystaline / Galerider / Hibernation / Phantasmal Image / Lord
OR POST SB :
Harmonic / Faerie Maccabre / Phyrexian Revoker / Thalia / Aethersworn Canonist ... You name it.
- More space in the sb
- Having a 1/1 non-sliver to block or sacrifice is often a good thing.
- 2W is very playable especially through a cavern or a vial.
- Can be copied with Phantasmal Image.
Ultrab77
04-26-2017, 01:09 AM
Which version will be more adapted now that Miracle is gone?
With more Delver decks or Elves I would be tempted to go the full slivers way with anti-combo hate MD (Thalia, Chalice).
Could look like:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
2 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Karakas
3 Mana Confluence
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 AEther Vial
2 Chrome Mox
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
2 Venom Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Syphon Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
Thoughts?
mistercakes
04-26-2017, 04:01 AM
I was thinking about playing slivers again, but before getting into the lists again I will wait until this tribal commander set comes out... Just in case.
still very sceptical about 5c slivers in legacy... i'll give it a try...
About your list, I don't think the death of Miracle means you can get rid of fows!
No Miracle = More Fast Combo
worldsaverinc
04-26-2017, 10:51 AM
What changes are to be made between the traditional CounterSliver and the All-In Slivers now that Miracles and other Top decks are dead and gone. I play the Chrome Mox version of All-In Slivers.
not much :smile: If you are playing 4 hibernation sliver, you could eventually cut to 3
Falconer26
05-13-2017, 10:05 PM
Whats a good list for someone getting started with the archetype?
Pinder
05-14-2017, 04:28 PM
Whats a good list for someone getting started with the archetype?
A fairly straightforward Countersliver build like this would be a good place to start:
//Creatures (20)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
//Spells (20)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
//Lands (20)
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
That's a decent starting point, and you can tune your list according to your tastes/metagame from there.
Havrekjex
05-29-2017, 05:58 AM
If you had to build this deck (Brainstorm/fetch/duals version) without any black duals, which option would you prefer, and why?
* Play straight Bant without Hibernation Sliver and any other black cards
* Play with some number of Hibernation Sliver and rely on Cavern of Souls/Æther Vial/Sliver Hive to cast them
mistercakes
05-29-2017, 08:19 AM
There is a list without black in the previous post. Please read a bit.
Havrekjex
05-30-2017, 02:15 AM
There is a list without black in the previous post. Please read a bit.That would certainly be the correct reply if my question was «Is it possible to put together a Bant Slivers list according to one person?». I did see the list, it was even part of the reason I asked. But ok, I guess we don't want to have an actual dialogue in here. Thanks a lot for your staggeringly helpful answer.
Curby
05-30-2017, 02:49 AM
I dunno, I think Terminus might still be a thing once the control players optimize topless builds, not to mention Toxic Deluge and the odd Engineered Explosives. If you absolutely can't get Black duals, I'd recommend trying the 5-color land thing and seeing how clunky it is.
P.S. You mention playing straight Bant without (Hibernation and) other black cards as an option, but neither route really works if you want to run things like Duress or Abrupt Decay. If you know someone that you can borrow a Sea or two from, that would be great, but I guess you know that already. :tongue:
mistercakes
05-30-2017, 04:18 AM
That would certainly be the correct reply if my question was «Is it possible to put together a Bant Slivers list according to one person?». I did see the list, it was even part of the reason I asked. But ok, I guess we don't want to have an actual dialogue in here. Thanks a lot for your staggeringly helpful answer.
The truth is, I would never play a version without hibernation. The bant version is just a bunch of lords with crystalline. At that point you should just play merfolk since the mana is much better. You also cut yourself out of syphon sliver which can be useful in some racing matchups.
If you're still determined to only play bant, then probably run 2 Sylvan library so you can find your crystalline slivers.
You asked about playing a brainstorm/fetch/duals version. This simply isn't as good with 4-8 rainbow lands.
You'd likely need to cut the mutavaults, but you can try it.
Curby
05-30-2017, 11:57 AM
Some lists ran a Scrubland in the pre-Mutavault days so that Scrubland+Trop could cast any Sliver on two lands. If Seas aren't an option, you could try Scrubland. It won't help Daze or cantrips, but at least it allows you to cast slivers and some utility spells.
Memories of the Time
06-06-2017, 02:20 PM
I'm wondering if anyone here has seen my topic in developmental, about a "control" version of the deck.
It's probably the most interesting and entertaining deck i've ever played, so i'm really interested in your opinion about a way to make it almost "competitive", if possibile =)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31694-5c-Tricky-Slivers
One question at a time please!
1st on the list is : Brainstorm or not Brainstorm?
Curby
06-22-2017, 11:46 PM
Brainstorm.
I mean, my sig. What's better than fixing your mana, digging for relevant slivers, having more chances to get sideboard hate, and shuffling away dead cards with fetchlands? Merfolk doesn't run cantrips because of the simpler manabase and Chalice, but those don't apply to Slivers (not to mention that Merfolk gets bitten by the inconsistency bug due to a lack of library manipulation).
Brainstorm.
I mean, my sig. What's better than fixing your mana, digging for relevant slivers, having more chances to get sideboard hate, and shuffling away dead cards with fetchlands? Merfolk doesn't run cantrips because of the simpler manabase and Chalice, but those don't apply to Slivers (not to mention that Merfolk gets bitten by the inconsistency bug due to a lack of library manipulation).
Library manipulations are indeed primordial imo (until we get a good card advantage sliver) ... but brainstorm isn't the only card doing it...
Sylvan library of instance, even if less explosive, is also real power house in the deck.
I am currently hesitating between those two builts concerning card drawing:
2 sylvan library (2 makes the deck a little more clunky but the first one will most of the time prevent your from drawing the second)
2 recruiter of the guard ( I strongly encourage everybody to give her 1 or 2 slots no matter what build you are playing!)
Brainless makes room for more slivers, letting me add a tutorable syphon sliver which btw works wonderfully with S library (turns slivers into mini griselbrands:cool:)
I'm testing this right now...
My point being: less bs = more good slivers.
OR
2 recruiter of the guard
1 sylvan library
3 brainstorm
The reasons of my hesitations are:
-The redundancy of bs with library on the field (let you dig only one more card)
-It can easily be disrupted
-3/4 slots that forces me to cut -1 syphon, -1 muscle, -1 Galerider
and since I play 3 chalice in the sideboard, brainstorm is often taken out on the 2nd or 3rd game.
I'm not sure if the "flexibility" provided by the blue cantrip is still worth 3/4 slots considering with have other ways to get card selection and net card advantage if needed...
On the other hand, i am well aware that bs can be a life saver in those cases:
- Rearange a bad starting hand (+ fetch)
- Dig for a counterspell or a sliver in emergency.
- Hide some key cards from discard spells.
Both lists works, but I would gladly hear your thoughts !
The conversation continues...
PS:
Why playing chalice?
-At 0 or 1 and even sometime at 2 ( locking punishing fire and Life of the loam out in case of emergency)
-Protects slivers if no Crystalline or Hibernation available (PLAY HIBERNATION!!!!)
-Synergetic with Cavern of Souls
-ELVES
Curby
06-23-2017, 11:13 AM
I'm a little skeptical of Recruiter here, to be honest. Sure it's card advantage, but netting a non-sliver 1/1 isn't really all that hot given that we can't recur it with Flickerwisp here. Additionally, it's not a Sliver (bad for Cavern) and costs 3 (bad for Vial). If I felt the need for 1-shot search effects, I might still prefer Eladamri's Call.
I'm a big fan of Sylvan Library too if you see my other posts on Sliver and Zoo threads, but IMO you add 1-2 Libraries only after you establish a consistent base with Brainstorm and you still have room in the deck.
I'm a little skeptical of Recruiter here, to be honest. Sure it's card advantage, but netting a non-sliver 1/1 isn't really all that hot given that we can't recur it with Flickerwisp here. Additionally, it's not a Sliver (bad for Cavern) and costs 3 (bad for Vial). If I felt the need for 1-shot search effects, I might still prefer Eladamri's Call.
I'm a big fan of Sylvan Library too if you see my other posts on Sliver and Zoo threads, but IMO you add 1-2 Libraries only after you establish a consistent base with Brainstorm and you still have room in the deck.
You are probably right about BS... 1/2 libraries and 3 brainstorm is the safest thing.
But again I encourage you to give recruiter a try...Sure it's not a sliver... but let's compare it to silvercycling (which is theoretically good but only let you remplace a sliver) or eladamri's call which is mana intensive and can be countered.
Recruiter can be vialed, or caverned (I run a playset and naming human is rarely a hard thing to accomplish) it's a 5/6th crystalline, 4/5th hibernation, 4/5th galerider, it's an additional lord, or even a blue card to pitch to fow... it makes room in the sideboard (let you tutor hatebears without having to pack 3/4 of them) and in the main (only one phantasmal is needed) , can block or attack , be sacrificed without a thought and without ruinning your boardstate... Honnestly it's a house... even if not recursive.
Stevestamopz
08-01-2017, 09:14 AM
Hey fellow legends and meathooks enthusiasts (what a tautology)
With the super prestigious Legacy FNM coming up for me, I've decided that it's time to fish-hook some people into submission.
//Artifact (4)
4 Æther Vial
//Creature (27)
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
//Instant (10)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
//Land (19)
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
As you can probably tell from my sideboard, I don't have much love for combo (there should probably be 4 Containment Priests, fuck Show and Tell).
I haven't added much in the way of spice except making the deck worse by trying to force Abrupt Decay. I'm gunna test Edric although it's probably win-more and just more of me trying to turn every deck into a deck with Goblin Ringleader in it. Please let me know if I'm making any super-fatal errors in deckbuilding before I go fish out these hooks from the closet they've laid dormant in for quite some time.
Kobra_D
08-09-2017, 11:44 PM
Evening Everyone,
I want to preface this with I have never played a sliver before.
Stone forge mystic likes to be in creature heavy decks. Creature heavy decks want to have their creatures double as spells. Therefore slivers?
Has anyone tried this?
Curby
08-11-2017, 03:04 AM
Stone forge mystic likes to be in creature heavy decks. Creature heavy decks want to have their creatures double as spells. Therefore slivers?
Not exactly sure what your point is. The most common uses of SFM are probably Stoneblade/Deathblade, with 10-16 creatures, and Death and Taxes, with 25+ creatures. It's also sometimes seen in creature-light decks, e.g. a Batterskull package in Miracles. In other words the creature count for SFM decks varies a lot.
IMO very few slivers function as spells. Beyond Harmonic Sliver, it's mostly pump and evasion. Merfolk can do things like counter spells, draw cards, and bounce creatures (in addition to pump/evasion). Elves and Goblins do all kinds of crazy things.
If you're proposing adding SFM to Slivers, I don't think it will work. The goal is to have Slivers that can't be equipped to (due to Crystalline), so you're left with equipping to SFM or running living weapons.
Kobra_D
08-13-2017, 02:41 AM
Not exactly sure what your point is. The most common uses of SFM are probably Stoneblade/Deathblade, with 10-16 creatures, and Death and Taxes, with 25+ creatures. It's also sometimes seen in creature-light decks, e.g. a Batterskull package in Miracles. In other words the creature count for SFM decks varies a lot.
IMO very few slivers function as spells. Beyond Harmonic Sliver, it's mostly pump and evasion. Merfolk can do things like counter spells, draw cards, and bounce creatures (in addition to pump/evasion). Elves and Goblins do all kinds of crazy things.
If you're proposing adding SFM to Slivers, I don't think it will work. The goal is to have Slivers that can't be equipped to (due to Crystalline), so you're left with equipping to SFM or running living weapons.
Fair enough on the variation on creature numbers in sfm decks. I just happened to see this deck played and thought it was fun but I'm not huge on the straight up lords idea for tribal decks. Vial slivers seems a lot like merfolk or vial goblins with a worse mana base so I was curious if it were feasible to move in a different direction closer to d&t but bigger/more versatile?
Again, not sure, I was just curious what the knowledge was from the people who have come before me.
Thanks for the input.
Curby
08-13-2017, 02:12 PM
Vial slivers seems a lot like merfolk or vial goblins with a worse mana base
If you read my posts on countersliver threads I've said the same time and time again ... except I generally think the creature are worse too. I mean, that's a nice Muscle Sliver you got there but my tribal lord ALSO lets me landwalk the most powerful color in the game while pumping the team. Crystalline is about the only reason to run Slivers, but it's not so good that people throw random Crystallines in their non-tribal decks. On the other hand, Merfolk has creatures powerful enough to run outside of the tribe (TNN).
I was curious if it were feasible to move in a different direction closer to d&t but bigger/more versatile?
People have tried shoving all sorts of creatures into Slivers, but the more you do that, the more you should ask yourself the fundamental question of why you're running Slivers at all.
worldsaverinc
08-15-2017, 10:52 AM
Hi all,
I have asked previously about all-in slivers and now I am asking about Smuggler's Copter in all-in slivers.
A sample proposed list
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Sliver Hive
4x Mutavault
4x Mana Confluence
3x Ancient Ziggurat
2x Chrome Mox
2x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial
4x Galerider Sliver
4x Striking Sliver
4x Crystalline Sliver
3x Hibernation Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Predatory Sliver
2x Venom
1x Winged Sliver
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Sideboard
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Containment Priest
2x Darkheart Sliver
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Harmonic Sliver
1x Necrotic Sliver
2x Meddling Mage
1x Pithing Needle
I am more then willing to change the list to something similar if it will work more on this current metagame. I think this was more for miracles, so something might be better in this different metagame. I would be interested to hear your suggestions. My proposal is changing out 2 Striking Slivers for Smuggler's Copter. I would also be considered adding some Manaweft/Gemhide Slivers and some larger ones like Blur or Necrotic that do well in the modern slivers deck. I am also thinking a Sidewinder or two might be good against all the true name nemesis out there.
Curby
08-15-2017, 11:53 AM
I'd take out Chalice instead. I don't think you're running it (Chalice) in a shell that can really leverage it. If you want to have control deck elements, go all out like Merfolk does with a full playset and additional layered protection like countermagic, Venser, Truth, Clique. But that's not your deck. Ultimately, I'd much rather have Sylvan Library or SmugCop in the Chalice slots.
Speaking of Red, Hunter Sliver and Striking Sliver is a wonderful combo. You can easily kill utility creatures like SFM, DRS, Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I might slightly prefer Hunter over Venom, as you can then use your army as removal. Alternately, take out the single Winged and a Striking to run both Venom and Hunter, as any combination of Venom+Hunter+Striking removes much of the need for evasion.
Keep in mind that if you're really all-in aggro, that implies a kind of dumb brute force mentality. If you're gonna get tricky with things like disruption, that's something I heartily endorse but it really benefits from library manipulation to help find the right answers to a given situation. SmugCop, Oath, Library, etc.
worldsaverinc
08-22-2017, 02:12 PM
Well All-In Slivers have another land option that I think I will persue in addition to Cavern and Sliver Hive. Uncharted Territory is something that helps this version of the deck quite a bit and does nothing to help other versions.
4 Cavern
4 Hive
4 Mutavault
4 Uncharted Territory
1 Gemhide Caverns
1 Mana Confluence
1 Ancient Ziggurat
crowe_1
08-22-2017, 08:33 PM
^
Is Uncharted Territory a newly spoiled card? I can't find it anywhere.
EDIT: Card is Unclaimed Territory. It's Cavern of Souls without "Can't be Countered."
Curby
08-23-2017, 12:04 PM
Thanks, I was wondering about that.
Chronatog
08-23-2017, 02:56 PM
^
Is Uncharted Territory a newly spoiled card? I can't find it anywhere.
EDIT: Card is Unclaimed Territory. It's Cavern of Souls without "Can't be Countered."
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/133/148/200/283/636390127581568259.jpeg
NECRO ALERT! :laugh:
Planning to start playing Slivers soon and this is my starting point:
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault
1 Sliver Hive
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Savannah
1 Tropical
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
Sideboard
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Necrotic Sliver
2 Pithing Needle
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Divert
2 Containment Priest
Sideboard still is a mess, but it will have to do for now.
And the manabase is still wonky. On one side I want to play more blue lands (don't own any tundra's so I need to borrow/buy them, and no Flooded Strands)/fetches. Or should I replace the 2 delta's by 2 Sliver Hives for 'better' mana. I think being able to cast the brainstorms/Images/return Island for daze, is more important than the Sliver Mana base. Also, with 4 Mutavaults, mana might be more of a problem. Maybe including a chrome mox?
The 2 images are flex slots, thought about a recruiter or a library, but I find that with a small manabase, weak to wasteland, getting to that 3 mana (plus white) isn't always easy. And by the time you cast it, it might not even matter anymore. Library can be more interesting in long games.
Although I think that the Images can be of more use, you can copy a lord, or counter one of the unfair decks strategies (by copying Marit Lage, Emrakul, ...)
Not a big fan of removal, mostly because it's hard to find a decent manabase for it, but maybe a dismember may fit (easier on the mana).
Might want a Darkheart/Syphon sliver in the side against burn or maybe grixis (although I feel that Syphon sliver might be too slow against Burn)
PuppyWuppy
09-20-2017, 04:17 PM
So with the return of dominaria. What kind of Sliver would be needed to be printed to make this deck even more scarier?
Claymore
09-20-2017, 04:30 PM
Eldrazi Sliver 3
Slivers get Annihilate 1.
2/2
What they'll actually print:
Buscemi Sliver UUU
Sliver Dinosaur Ninja Beast
All your slivers have MegaEnrage (When this creature is dealt damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it.).
1/1
Curby
09-20-2017, 06:13 PM
So with the return of dominaria. What kind of Sliver would be needed to be printed to make this deck even more scarier?
Meaning more than not scary at all? This deck is currently not competitive in the meta. Merfolk is the better Lord tribal deck, and even that is not tier 1.
The problem with Slivers is twofold. First, card advantage. You need at least 3 slivers, and ideally 4-5 to make a really credible threat. However, that hypothetical 5-sliver army is easily 5-for-1'd with a Toxic Deluge, Terminus, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, etc.
Not only that, but because you need critical mass on the field, you need critical mass in the deck. That means that for beef/power you're "wasting" 12 slots to Lords, whereas another deck can use just 4 slots on Anglers, Tarmogoyfs, Mentors, etc. and have remaining design space for disruption (countermagic/removal/etc.) and library manipulation (draw/cantrips/tutors). Merfolk has Lords, but their Lords also allow them to landwalk the most popular color in the format. That's "free" evasion for which we'd need an entire other card (Galerider). See the pattern? More deck space taken up. More overextension onto the board.
Second, the manabase. Using more colors trades greediness for power. You're more easily disrupted with nonbasic hate, but you can make use of the best cards that your colors have to offer. However, there are so many critical colorless land like Cavern and Mutavault that the rest of the manabase cannot reliably support casting both colored spells and colored creatures. This is the reason for the recent uptick in "all-in" slivers, which is effectively kitchen table tribal: you take a pile of slivers, and a pile of land, smash them together and hope for the best. Compare to Merfolk, where they can actually run 10 or more basic Islands to cast their non-Merfolk spells. Ironically, while the point of going multicolor is to make use of the colors' best spells, it's the single color deck which is better able to actually consistently cast its non-creature spells.
So, what can Wizards do to help Legacy slivers? Well, they can't print a sliver that fixes the fundamental manabase problems, and I bet they won't print slivers that have multiple roles, the way Lord of Atlantis has the multiple roles of granting pump and evasion.
If they printed Deathrite Sliver, a 1/2 which casts for G or B and gave all slivers the abilities of Deathrite Shaman, that could actually help both of the problems above. Good luck with that.
worldsaverinc
09-21-2017, 10:49 AM
They could print a couple slivers that would Slivers out.
1. Graveyard hate sliver, probably on the side of the new dinosaur or mardu foe reaper, or hopefully Dryad Militant
2. Taxing Sliver, probably like Judge's Familiar, Cursecatcher, Mauseleum Wanderer, although a cheap Thalia like sliver would be awesome. Non-Sliver spells cost (1) more to cast, and all slivers you control get this. It would help Sliver prison.
3. Cantrip Sliver something along the lines of Silvergill Adept, Elvish Visionary would be good, a cheaper non-defender Dormant Sliver essentially, the other option is a Sliver like Sylvan Messenger or the Boros Ally one. On the low powered end, Scry might be an option.
4. Cheaper utility slivers might help keep the curve low like a 2 mana haste sliver, 2 or 1 mana lifelink sliver, better keywords. Perhaps cheaper/better recursion of slivers in the graveyard.
Unclaimed Territory will help all-in sliver lists.
Curby
09-21-2017, 11:18 AM
1. Neat, but doesn't help with the two fundamental problems facing slivers. Yardhate has never been a problem in this deck.
2. So with a taxing sliver and two muscles, everything else costs 3 more colorless? That will never get printed.
3. If all Slivers Scryed for 1 as they entered the battlefield, that is NOT low powered. It would actually be kinda neat, but insanely powerful and I doubt it would get printed.
4. We do have a 2-mana haste sliver; just not in our normal colors. https://scryfall.com/search?q=sliver%20o%3Ahaste Quick Sliver is on-color, 2 mana, and gives pseudo-haste as your creatures don't have to wait on board for an entire turn before attacking.
I'd note that only your #3 solves the major problems I outlined with the deck, as a ton of scrying can help smooth out mana. 4 is pretty generic, so it could conceivably help the second problem I listed. Ultimately, we don't need raw power. We don't need better keywords. We need to run as effective a sliver army with fewer cards in the deck, and that requires individual cards that each fill multiple roles.
By the way, all-in is not the way to go if you want to be competitive. There are a ton of moon effects now, and Miracles sometimes runs maindeck B2B. Printing cards that makes for better all-in sliver decks does not make for more competitive Legacy sliver decks. The best Wurm decks still do not get played in competitive Legacy even as they print more and better Wurm cards.
worldsaverinc
09-21-2017, 11:37 AM
Ok, I don't have the budget for CounterSliver, so I am going to keep playing All-In sliver varients until I do. Therefore I am interested in making All-In Sliver as competitive as possible.
I think Scry might be very powerful to help out, but what do you think of Cursecatcher-like Sliver rather than Thalia. I would have to sacrifice the sliver to gain the effect for 1 spell. I think it could work. Scry plus Slivercatcher
I find Scry is weaker than Cantriping directly like Dormant Sliver, so it has a better chance to make it. They are also doing alot of See the top 4 cards of your deck type effects which might get reworded for Slivers.
Frankly, I would also like some of these for modern/pauper as well.
Likely though we are going to be getting new keywords for Slivers.
I would think the problem with Slivers is that they need perhaps better Hatebear-esque capabilities and Card Draw/Advantage. Anything like those two things might be relevant for any Sliver variant/format with Card Draw/Advantage being more important than Hatebear. Slivers are already better at combat tricks the most other tribes due to their keyword advantage.
IF Merfolk is better at playing the Blue game as tribes and Elves at the combo game of tribes. Slivers should be better at something and I think that something should be Prison/Hatebear effects. Shroud on all your slivers is pretty powerful as is First strike, Flying, Anthems, bounce, lifelink, haste, flanking, etc.
Curby
09-21-2017, 11:53 AM
Slivers should be better at something and I think that something should be Prison/Hatebear effects. Shroud on all your slivers is pretty powerful as is First strike, Flying, Anthems, bounce, lifelink, haste, flanking, etc.
I take issue with the word should. No one says all tribes have to be competitive. Where's my tier 1 goat deck? I agree it would be awesome if my first competitive Legacy deck were once again viable, but Wizards doesn't have any obligation to make it so.
A sliver powerful enough to make Legacy Slivers viable would also be usable in other decks, the way TNN is usable in decks outside tribal Merfolk, and the way Deathrite Shaman is usable in decks outside tribal Elves. What I'm saying is: such a printing would not just help slivers relative to the format: it would power creep the entire format, which is not a net win for Slivers.
The problem isn't that we don't have enough effects. The problem is that we don't have enough slots in the deck. You can by all means include those tricky keywords in your sliver army, but you won't have room for the 12 Muscles, which goes precisely back to my point about card efficiency. Our cards don't do enough individually.
This isn't D&T, where Mirran Crusader wearing Sword of Fire and Ice can singlehandedly do 24 damage in two swings (while drawing you 4 cards). This isn't Merfolk, where a single TNN can take the game with enough disruption backup. Slivers requires critical mass, and that in turn takes too many slots and makes it too vulnerable to removal.
Edit: Before Predatory Sliver was printed, everyone was clamoring for more more Sliver Lords, and I was saying that extra Muscles wouldn't be enough. Here again I'm saying that more slivers the likes of which we've seen before will not be enough to make the tribe competitive. So go ahead, Wizards. Prove me wrong.
Soldier of Fortune
09-22-2017, 03:15 AM
i played Meathooks tonight for fun at Mox Boarding House in Bellevue, Washington and finished 3-1.
Lost R-1 0-2 Aluren (BUG variation)
I messed up and FOW a Strix cause I was trying to aggro him out. If I would have saved it I may have been able to win if I counter the Aluren on the following turn. Game two he has a Jitte and I never find a Crystalline or removal for it. Match up seems rough.
Won R-2 2-0 Four Color Loam
I win game one fairly easily with early an Vial, Crystalline and lords. Game two I start off with Hibernation he goes for Punishing Fire, I bounce and then Surgical his Fires. Turns out his hand was another Fire a Grove and other lands. Win easily from there.
Won R-3 2-0 Czech Pile
Game one my hand is bonkers with a Vial, Cavern, Mutavault, Crystalline, Hibernation, and two lords. On the draw I get my third lord. My opponents first few turns start off with BS, then another BS followed by Ponder and then a Tasigur. I patiently waited to get Vial to two, landed Crystalline and overran with 6/6 and 5/5 monsters. Game two is the same.
Won R-4 2-0 Miracles
Another easy match up where I start off with an early Vial and Daze his FOW. I never commit more than two creatures to the board and just beat face. Terminus resolved once. I countered an Entreat and that's all she wrote. Game two I land an early Hibernation and they just can't beat this card. I protect from Swords twice, land a small army and when Terminus comes he just doesn't cast it cause he'd lose his Containment Priest and I had a Vial ready to go. Sees the writing on the wall and scoops.
I played the standard UGW list with Daze, STP, FOW, BS and your standard Slivers. All in all, I had a great time and I'm sure I'll play this deck at random 4 rounders in the future.
Andy_Prime
09-22-2017, 05:01 AM
i played Meathooks tonight for fun at Mox Boarding House in Bellevue, Washington and finished 3-1.
Nice, I saw you wrecking aggro loam from across the table. I dont suppose you could post your list, Looked pretty slick. Been thinking about giving this deck a try at some point.
Epeirogeny
09-24-2017, 11:14 PM
Here is a budget list I think that could work now that Unclaimed Territory is being printed.
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Venom Sliver
1 Sidewinder Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Syphon Sliver
1 Bonescythe Sliver
4 Force of Will
4 Æther Vial
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Mutavault
4 Mana Confluence
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
1 Syphon Sliver
Opinions? Thoughts? It is definitely a work in progress. And it may not have enough interaction, but at least it has FoW mainboard. The sideboard could maybe take out the Syphon Sliver for something else, but I do see the deck having enough aggro to beat delver and other fair decks, but not fast enough for burn.
worldsaverinc
09-25-2017, 02:42 PM
Here is a budget list I think that could work now that Unclaimed Territory is being printed.
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Venom Sliver
1 Sidewinder Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Syphon Sliver
1 Bonescythe Sliver
4 Force of Will
4 Æther Vial
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Mutavault
4 Mana Confluence
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
1 Syphon Sliver
Opinions? Thoughts? It is definitely a work in progress. And it may not have enough interaction, but at least it has FoW mainboard. The sideboard could maybe take out the Syphon Sliver for something else, but I do see the deck having enough aggro to beat delver and other fair decks, but not fast enough for burn.
I might play more Harmonic Slivers, but it seems fine. Why the decision to have no Striking Slivers?
Striking Sliver might be underrated and allows you to trade more efficiently with things especially with Venom Sliver. I might take Syphon/Bonescythe/Harmonic out of the main and replace them with Striking and you might not need 20 Lands or replace a Mana Confluence with a Karakas
There is a Legacy meathooks facebook post which has similiar lists called All-In Slivers that might provide you good advice as well.
Curby
09-25-2017, 04:24 PM
You might want more blue to fully enable FoW. I've heard 14 non-FoW cards is pretty much a bare minimum. I might have missed something but I count 10.
I highly recommend NOT running singletons in a deck with no search. If it's good, run 3-4*. If it's very situational, run 2-4 in the board. (If this is just a casual deck and you want everything in, then that's another matter.)
* 1-2 Winged is fine because you're really saying "5-6 Flying slivers."
Epeirogeny
09-26-2017, 01:04 AM
I might play more Harmonic Slivers, but it seems fine. Why the decision to have no Striking Slivers?
Striking Sliver might be underrated and allows you to trade more efficiently with things especially with Venom Sliver. I might take Syphon/Bonescythe/Harmonic out of the main and replace them with Striking and you might not need 20 Lands or replace a Mana Confluence with a Karakas
There is a Legacy meathooks facebook post which has similiar lists called All-In Slivers that might provide you good advice as well.
Too many Harmonic Slivers hits our own Aether Vials since it is not a "may" trigger. I had no idea about Stiking Sliver, made the list off memory. Definitely seems good. Helps the curve out as well. I would agree to move a few of the random outliers for the Striking Sliver. One Karakas main is good, but not sure if Mana Confluence is the right land to cut. Maybe cut out a Mutavault since the deck is very color hungry.
Epeirogeny
09-26-2017, 01:14 AM
You might want more blue to fully enable FoW. I've heard 14 non-FoW cards is pretty much a bare minimum. I might have missed something but I count 10.
I highly recommend NOT running singletons in a deck with no search. If it's good, run 3-4*. If it's very situational, run 2-4 in the board. (If this is just a casual deck and you want everything in, then that's another matter.)
* 1-2 Winged is fine because you're really saying "5-6 Flying slivers."
I count 14 Blue spells, 18 if you include the FoWs themselves.
4 Galerider
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
The 1-of slivers are probably coming out for Striking Slivers now.
Sideboard is not set in stone right now, but the deck is bringing in at least 4 piece of hate depending on the matchup. For example, it would bring in 2 Surgical Extractions and 2 Grafdigger's Cage for graveyard decks. Or 2 Mindbreak Trap and 2 Thorn of Amethyst for Storm. Or 2 Pithing Needle, a Karakas, and a Phantasmal Image for Sneak and Show. And so on. Whether it turns into 3 Playsets of hate along with one last 3 of a kind to make a 15 card sideboard I do not know.
I am not playing this list actively, my main decks are Lands and Pox. I made this list to introduce another possible budget deck into the format. However, for the same price, perhaps Burn, Eldrazi, and/or Merfolk are better. Yet, I have not played any of those decks myself. I have only played against them.
Epeirogeny
09-28-2017, 03:08 PM
Budget Mana Base Slivers List: some updates after testing.
Deck: Slivers (Budget-like) (https://deckstats.net/decks/8408/808857-slivers-budget-like-/en) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif
//Main
4 Muscle Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Muscle+Sliver)
4 Galerider Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Galerider+Sliver)
4 Predatory Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Predatory+Sliver)
4 Sinew Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sinew+Sliver)
4 Crystalline Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crystalline+Sliver)
4 Hibernation Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Hibernation+Sliver)
4 Striking Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Striking+Sliver)
2 Winged Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Winged+Sliver)
2 Harmonic Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Harmonic+Sliver)
4 Force of Will (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
4 Æther Vial (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=%C6ther+Vial)
4 Cavern of Souls (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cavern+of+Souls)
4 Sliver Hive (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sliver+Hive)
4 Unclaimed Territory (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Unclaimed+Territory)
3 Mutavault (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mutavault)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karakas)
4 Mana Confluence (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mana+Confluence)
//Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mindbreak+Trap)
4 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Surgical+Extraction)
4 Warping Wail (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Warping+Wail)
2 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Harmonic Sliver (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Harmonic+Sliver)
https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (https://deckstats.net/decks/8408/808857-slivers-budget-like-)
Combo Decks
Deck still has some issues against Show and Tell decks, especially the Omniscience builds. Karakas in the main should help, but it is minimal with only one main board.
Striking Sliver is good, and works well with the curve. Sidewinder Sliver may have an argument if more Karakas come in the mainboard.
Mindbreak Traps were better than Thorns of Amethyst against storm, because they are also blue cards to help Force of Will as well. It was a rare corner case, but I had two Mindbreak Traps in hand one game with little gas to put pressure on the storm player.
Surgical Extractions seemed to be enough of a deterrent against Reanimator based decks. Dredge is fine if you cant hit Ichorids or Narcomoebas early, and if they get too many out to fuel to combo, it can hit combo pieces.
Again, without Brainstorm the deck if very opening hand dependent. I did not like sideboarding to hate, but seemed necessary against combo decks.
Fair decks
Delver decks were not too much of an issue. Though Force of Will against an Aether Vial can be devastating because it is one way to develop the board around their counterspells. Wasteland was annoying because it always went for the Cavern of Souls.
4 Color Control/Leovold decks were okay because it can outspeed the Leovold and True Name Nemesis threat. However, the board wipes like Toxic Deluge and Pyroclasm were devastating. Learned to not overplay the flying slivers and hold them back for Force of Will fuel. Even Lingering Souls was annoying because it generated so many blockers.
It was difficult to out value the midrange and control decks. The deck really just needs to power out as many Sliver Lords and get swinging.
Prison Control Decks
Lands is a bigger issue than expected. Punishing Fire, Wasteland Lock, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, and Glacial Chasm are all real problems. It was tough to decide whether Pithing Needle should name Thespian's Stage or Wasteland some games.
U/W Miracles/Control was surprisingly okay. Cavern of Souls is a life saver in the matchup. The deck is able to get enough pressure out quickly to prevent them from setting up. Yet, there were some games without a Cavern of Souls where they are just able to counter everything and by turn 4 they have turned the corner with Jace or just enough answers like Back to Basics and no Aether Vial on board for us.
worldsaverinc
09-29-2017, 07:33 AM
Would Leyline of the Void be preferable instead of Surgical Extraction? It would stop some of the Lands shenanigans while also helping against Reanimator and Dredge.
My version without FoW uses Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist to fight off storm.
Epeirogeny
10-01-2017, 10:04 PM
Would Leyline of the Void be preferable instead of Surgical Extraction? It would stop some of the Lands shenanigans while also helping against Reanimator and Dredge.
My version without FoW uses Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist to fight off storm.
Perhaps, but if you draw into Leyline of the Void it is basically impossible to cast in this deck. Also if you do happen to have two Mana Confluence/City of Brass, Leyline of the Void is too late for Dredge or Reanimator by turn 4. Though both decks can go off turn 1, I would like to have something I could use outside of pregame.
We need some decent, non red card advantage/tutor sliver AND/OR some better priced already existing slivers AND/OR some good taxing sliver (crusecatcher/thalia like).
But my bet is that we are going to get some "non slivers ... get ... "
streetMage
10-09-2017, 11:22 AM
Is it really necessary to run 12 lord effects? What if you guys went down to 8 and ran 4x Recruiter of the Guard. I know its not a sliver, but it can help tutor for them and sideboard hatebears some of you run.
Sorry if its been mentioned/tested before, just a fan of the deck and was passing by...
Is it really necessary to run 12 lord effects? What if you guys went down to 8 and ran 4x Recruiter of the Guard. I know its not a sliver, but it can help tutor for them and sideboard hatebears some of you run.
Sorry if its been mentioned/tested before, just a fan of the deck and was passing by...
Thanks for folowing the idea! I have been playing 9 lords and 2 recruiters for a few months now and it works wonders!!
quoting myself :
"- Tutor your missing: Crystaline / Galerider / Hibernation / Phantasmal Image / Lord
OR POST SB :
Harmonic / Faerie Maccabre / Phyrexian Revoker / Thalia / Aethersworn Canonist ... You name it.
- More space in the sb
- Having a 1/1 non-sliver to block or sacrifice is often a good thing.
- 2W is very playable especially through a cavern or a vial.
- Can be copied with Phantasmal Image."
Nobody saw this list?
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17133&f=LE
Any comments on the Sliver Legion? Don't know if it's good. Funny that he replaced the brainstorms by 3 STP + Harmonic Sliver. I can understand it, more than once, the brainstorm didn't really help me or just locked me.
cheinp
10-11-2017, 05:41 AM
Sliver legion is a quite good 7/7 creature with coat of arms effect!!!! but I think it's just for fun, I wouldn't include it cause it's extremely difficult to be casted. Yeah, you have caverns and plenty of duals but I prefer keeping my lands untapped to be able to cast a fow to protect my slivers...
Legion looks like a spicy secret tech here, rarely castable and rarely useful. Long game? a vial to blow to 5? 1 open mana of each color? In need of a blue card to pitch to fow? well, go on and play legion...
The manabase of this list looks fine tho!
Still not a fan of the 12 lord (+legion lol) package
STP why not? but i would go for cantrips instead, even if sometimes it can indeed lock yourself
Pinder
11-09-2017, 02:03 PM
Sliver Legion is interesting, I suppose; it seems like you would never actually cast it, but pushing Aether Vial up to 5 counters to sneak one in to break a board stall might be good.
Seems a little win-more, though - I'm not really sure it's worth the room. Plus if I was going for one of the 5c sliver lords, I would go for Sliver Queen - pumping out additional dudes seems preferable to pumping existing ones. Legion requires you to have a board presence already, but Queen gives you one.
mambosong
03-19-2018, 09:08 PM
Speaking of Red, Hunter Sliver and Striking Sliver is a wonderful combo. You can easily kill utility creatures like SFM, DRS, Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I might slightly prefer Hunter over Venom, as you can then use your army as removal. Alternately, take out the single Winged and a Striking to run both Venom and Hunter, as any combination of Venom+Hunter+Striking removes much of the need for evasion.
You can also play Quilled Sliver which combo's nicely with venom sliver as well and sentinel sliver if you want to get cute, but ultimately creatures aren't what this deck has problems with.
The main problems that this deck has is dealing with Combo, IE S&S, ANT/TES, Lands / Turbo Depths. To fight this, I think an "almost all-in-slivers" deck is required, which can streamline the manabase as spells aren't being used. I want to try out a new mana base that is more akin to goblins / D&T, something like:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Sliver Hive
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadon Port
4 Aether Vial
4 force of will
32 slivers (or 30 + 2 phantasmal images, which on hind site might be hard to cast with this mana base).
Unfortunately we have to cut mutavault to make this work, and even though i love that card (its won me many many many many games), I think the added disruption will prove to be helpful.
I think this will help to slow down the other decks while allowing ours to push through. Maybe some Thorn of amethyst in the side would be helpful as well against the other combo decks, With this mana base, thorn is preferred over Thalia although it won't work with vial (and will likely be hit G2 and G3 with incidental hate). Damping sphere might also just be the additional hate we needed to fight off combo but thorn might just be better (or run both). It also happens to shut slow down the lands from S&S if we can land it in time.
worldsaverinc
03-20-2018, 01:27 PM
You can also play Quilled Sliver which combo's nicely with venom sliver as well and sentinel sliver if you want to get cute, but ultimately creatures aren't what this deck has problems with.
The main problems that this deck has is dealing with Combo, IE S&S, ANT/TES, Lands / Turbo Depths. To fight this, I think an "almost all-in-slivers" deck is required, which can streamline the manabase as spells aren't being used. I want to try out a new mana base that is more akin to goblins / D&T, something like:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Sliver Hive
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadon Port
4 Aether Vial
4 force of will
32 slivers (or 30 + 2 phantasmal images, which on hind site might be hard to cast with this mana base).
Unfortunately we have to cut mutavault to make this work, and even though i love that card (its won me many many many many games), I think the added disruption will prove to be helpful.
I think this will help to slow down the other decks while allowing ours to push through. Maybe some Thorn of amethyst in the side would be helpful as well against the other combo decks, With this mana base, thorn is preferred over Thalia although it won't work with vial (and will likely be hit G2 and G3 with incidental hate). Damping sphere might also just be the additional hate we needed to fight off combo but thorn might just be better (or run both). It also happens to shut slow down the lands from S&S if we can land it in time.
I think the manabase might give you problems. They aren't unsurmountable problems, just some issues. I can see sacrificing mutavault for wastelands or rishadon port, but not both. You lose too much ability to cast crystalline or hibernation on turn 2 to gain advantage. In an all-in build, we are trying to race an opponent and don't have the luxury of waiting around like D&T does setting up an aggro clock with hatebears.
Here is Daniel Nunes latest All-In List. I have proxied it up (Karakas and FoW and a 3rd Ethersworn are all I need to finish it). It is part of the Legacy Meathooks Facebook group.
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Mutavault
3 Ancient Ziggurat -- I use 2 Ancient Ziggurat and 1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Karakas
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Hunter Sliver
This provides a quick enough clock forcing people to have it or not. It isn't perfect, but we have tools that help us in these matchups. Wasteland might be useful as well in place of mutavault, but it helps our aggro hands so much.
mambosong
03-21-2018, 07:45 AM
I think the manabase might give you problems. They aren't unsurmountable problems, just some issues. I can see sacrificing mutavault for wastelands or rishadon port, but not both. You lose too much ability to cast crystalline or hibernation on turn 2 to gain advantage.
Has anyone actually tested it though or is all of this just conjecture? I don't plan on sitting around like DnT but instead to play them similarly to how goblins use them for disruption while still out aggro-ing the opponent.
You are right in that it'll make the turn 2 crystalline/hibernation sliver play more difficult, but I planned on cutting 2 hibernation slivers for diffusion slivers anyways because I'm not super impressed with the card.
worldsaverinc
03-24-2018, 04:33 PM
Has anyone actually tested it though or is all of this just conjecture? I don't plan on sitting around like DnT but instead to play them similarly to how goblins use them for disruption while still out aggro-ing the opponent.
You are right in that it'll make the turn 2 crystalline/hibernation sliver play more difficult, but I planned on cutting 2 hibernation slivers for diffusion slivers anyways because I'm not super impressed with the card.
David Nunes has extensively tested his manabase. I am not sure he has tested yours. He just 5-0ed a league with his.
I like Hibernation for things to do with Aether Vial. They are also 2/2 creatures which are relevant at times. I like being able to bounce a creature as a block and have it live or prevent lifelink or them gaining life. For example, you can block a thoughtknot seer and gain 2 life by bouncing the sliver until you get enough on board.
mambosong
03-24-2018, 04:50 PM
David Nunes has extensively tested his manabase. I am not sure he has tested yours. He just 5-0ed a league with his.
Yeah, I saw that he did that which is great. I'm not questioning whether or not his manabase is solid. I'm just looking for some untapped innovation. I'm in the process of acquiring them in paper, which may take awhile but when i get around to testing it I'll post honest results of them. Unfortunately I don't have MTGO which would've helped speed up the testing progress since I only get to play paper legacy once a week at most.
alvoi
06-09-2019, 10:09 AM
Do you think that some of the new slivers in horizons will make the cut to the deck?
Darklingske
06-09-2019, 12:36 PM
Do you think that some of the new slivers in horizons will make the cut to the deck?
Cloudshredder sliver is a clear upgrade for Galerider Sliver. But I wouldn't cut galerider completely. Bladeback sliver and Tempered Sliver could make it in the deck as bullets. But test them out, then you'll know if they are worthy. Also Spiteful Sliver gives some more reach to the deck.
Cloudshredder sliver is a clear upgrade for Galerider Sliver. But I wouldn't cut galerider completely. Bladeback sliver and Tempered Sliver could make it in the deck as bullets. But test them out, then you'll know if they are worthy. Also Spiteful Sliver gives some more reach to the deck.
I would rather say it is an upgrade to "Winged Sliver" not Galerider. CMC 1 is the real deal.
Unsettled Mariner seems to have some potential. Not sure it is Legacy playable but I could see a mix with Hibernation.
Regards,
Ralf
Darklingske
11-12-2019, 02:14 PM
Took the little buggers out to town yesterday. 30ppl, 5 rounds.
R1 against Lands 0-2
Both games stuck on land. G1 2 lands, G1 1 land. Both games I never had the chance to really play.
R2 UR Delver 1-2
G3 was very close, but a topdecked bolt killed me.
R3 against Foodchain 0-2
Both games were over very quick. G1 kill on T3, G2 kill on T5
R4 against Burn 2-0
He was stuck on mana both games
R5 against eldrazi 2-0
Quick beats of slivers are faster then an onslaught of Eldrazi.
MVP: Cloudshredder Sliver
Cons: the manabase and the combo MU.
compacta_d
02-04-2020, 10:30 AM
Posting my list to keep thread alive and get some input. There are facebook groups but most aren't that concerned with legacy.
Manabase:
4 caverns
4 hives
7 blue fetches
2 tundra
1 volcanic
1 tropical
nonslivers:
4 vials
4 fows
4 brainstorms
slivers:
4 crystalline
4 unsettled mariner
4 cloudshredder
2 hibernation
4 galerider
3 striking
4 predatory
4 sinew
sb right now is a mix of stuff I am still testing
force of negation
leyline voids
stps
2 harmonic
and whatever else i have to pad it out
For the sb i think RIPS and surgicals may be great mix over the leylines
harmonics haven't been great lately actually. FON comes in more when i have noncreature problems
FON is great. I think all versions probably want 3 in the sb
Mained- Hookman (settler) and cloudshredder are real deal. I honestly don't ever feel bad drawing multiples of the cloudshredder. It changes up the clock quite a bit and can just-vial sliver sliver turn 3 for the win sometimes.
Hookman stops SO MUCH. Wasteland, removal, targeted discard, planeswalker activations, ports, thespians stage on our stuff
I think red is the color to be now between Striking and Cloudshredder. Being white actually helps as we are majority UW even more so now. As much as I DO NOT want to remove the hibernations, I think it's probably the right call for mana base reasons. I think mutavaults in there somewhere might still be good, but with so many XX cost slivers you really need NOT colorless mana. Mutavaults probably go with more muscle heavy builds.
First strike is relevant right now with Baleful Strix and Coatl surprises. Sidewinder could also fit there if insisting on NOT red.
I think a list like:
4 crystal
4 hookmen
4 sinew
8 muscleys
4 galerider
3-sidewinder
2 something else idk phantasmal image
I may try that out too.
I like fetches and duals over the 5 color mana base. It opens up the sb so much and hard casting Forces is real. Also if you don't have duals and fetches or $1000 to play decks like slivers then go 5 color mana base and dont worry about it
compacta_d
02-04-2020, 10:31 AM
2 plated why nots
mistercakes
02-20-2020, 07:39 AM
played last tuesday at my local with this version, which is extremely close to daniel nunes' lists. i spoke with him a little on fb and i think that helped iron out some of the deck construction.
matchups:
r1: infect (0-2)
lost to blighted agent quickly in 2 games
r2: rug breach (2-1)
g1 lost to combo
g2 and 3 i drew a combination of leylines, chalice, mariners (to protect the former 2), fow
r3: eldrazi (2-0)
striking sliver was very helpful here
r4: miracles
g1 i was overpowered by terminus and mystic sanctuary
g2 and g3 were still close, but i had great draws and didn't overextend.
thoughts:
i might consider plague engineer in the sb. it can help in a lot of matchups and is very castable. i didn't mind having 1 karakas and also was fine with mana confluence, but my sample size in games is quite small. i would have loved to use sliver hive in the miracles matchup, but it didn't come up when i had enough mana to use.
3 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Striking Sliver
3 Unsettled Mariner
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
SB:
1 Unsettled Mariner
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Force of Negation
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Harmonic Sliver
4 Leyline of the Void
-rob
Ataraxy
04-04-2020, 04:06 PM
Hey all ! I wrote a Sliver primer on the french website Legacy France : http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=16646#entry291694
Here is a google translation of the primer (I am lazy, I don't feel to translate it haha). So, sorry for the approximation. If you want me to translate it properly and make a real english primer, feel free to ask me.
Welcome to this new primer on Slivers !
The list having undergone many changes over the years, it is time to restore its coat of arms, dust the swarm and welcome the new slivers within it.
1. HISTORY OF DECK
2. PRESENTATION OF DECK
3. WHY PLAY SLIVOIDES
4. STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES OF DECK
5. LIST OF MATCH-UP
1. HISTORY OF DECK
I will speak in this primer only of Slivers in Legacy.
In its early days, the deck was called Meathooks, or Counter-Slivers. It was roughly a Merfolk list without Merfolk, with Aether Vial, Mutavault, Daze, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and the whole package. The colors were Bant UGW to play the main slivers that were the Crystallines and the lords. Here is an example of a list from the period: https: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=115&d=108224&f=LE
At that time, the deck never perfected and remained a "pet deck" like any other. All of the power in the deck lay in the Crystalline Sliver.
Then the deck was relaunched in 2014 with the release of M14 and several predators joined the swarm of aliens: Galerider Sliver, Predatory Sliver, Siphon Sliver, Striking Sliver.
Two years ago, the appearance of Cavern of Souls had already been an asset to the deck. The following year, at the end of M15, we discovered Sliver Hive. The deck could finally start playing 4 or more colors, and integrate the Hibernation Sliver.
More and more "Full Slivers" lists appeared, like the one played by Daniel Nunes in 2015 (Brazilian player who has played Slivers for many years, and who is still to this day one of the only (the only one? ^^) regularly with Slivers):
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11139&d=263388&f=LE
(Note the exclamation point at the end of the list title to show the pet deck dimension of the list !).
This list was his first perf, and is relatively close to today's Slivers lists. We can see the appearance of the Karakas main deck. And no fuss: apart from the Force of Will, we are on fullsliversinyourface.
Still a little weak manabase, but which is improved thanks to the appearance of Unclaimed Territory in 2017 with the Ixalan edition. That's it, the list is stable and begins to drip like this at the end of 2017 which finished top8 on 149 players, again piloted by Daniel Nunes: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17691&d=309605&f=LE
Finally, the Modern Horizon edition brings in 2019 two new things that are now played main deck in most of the lists: I talked about Unsettled Mariner and Cloudshredder Sliver.
Here is the latest list from Daniel Nunes:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23913&f=LE
2. PRESENTATION OF DECK
Aggro, aggro, aggro and again aggro. Line up Slivers, see the flabbergasted looks of his opponents and hear the lamentations of their wives, dixit Conan the Barbarian who is an excellent Sliver player.
In pure goldfish with nothing in front, the deck is about 80% T4 kill. And in fact, we also see that this T4 kill is regular even with the disrupt in front. It should be understood that the deck contains ONLY Slivers apart from the Force of Will, and that the exits are always very aggressive because all the cards are equal. The deck plays redundancy and regularity in its outputs. In the end, he does very few mulligans.
So let's go for the presentation of the swarm.
THE MAIN-DECK
Crystalline Sliver
The queen of the swarm. This card makes the deck unmanageable for most fair decks. If it hits the board, it's game breaker in a lot of match ups, starting with Delver. I have already seen Delver conceding against T2 Crystalline on Caverns of Souls. He is in x4 without asking any questions.
Hibernation Sliver
The cousin of the Crystalline, it is less good in terms of protecting the Slivos one by one, but it will allow to shave the board easily. Accompanied by a Vial at 2, it is unmanageable. It is also excellent for chump blocking creatures larger than him such as Griselbrand or other Tarmogoyfs inflated with steroids. Beware, however, of the loss of life points. It is in x3 or x4.
Galerider Sliver
A CCM1 which announces the color. Theft is the best escape ability in Legacy. Auto include in x4. And since there is never enough, it is accompanied by the
Cloudshredder Sliver
I sincerely think that it is this new sliver that allows the deck to take off. It is the first sliver to give a double capa flight + speed, fusion of the Winger Sliver and Heart Sliver. It makes aggro unmanageable and unpredictable, testing it is adopting it. It replaced the Winged Sliver as soon as it was released. I am surprised that it is only played in two copies on most lists.
Muscle Sliver, Sinew Sliver and Predatory Sliver
12 lords +1 +1, because there is never too much. Each in x4, but the latest lists tend to play the Muscle only in two or three copies, to replace it with Plated Sliver.
Striking Sliver
The initiative is good in these deleterious times when the Ice-Fang Coatl pululent. He is a key card in many match ups, starting with Eldrazi. In x4 most of the time.
Unsettler Mariner
The youngest. This changeling (which is therefore a sliver) was not adopted immediately, then ended up being played main deck in two or three copies in the majority of the lists. Bulk examples of its capacity: all discard and removals, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Flickerwisp, Jitte counters, Kolaghan's Command which costs two more, Liliana of the Veil, Intuition, Tendrils of Agony...
Plated Sliver
It increases T1, and is mainly played in a meta where there is Plague Engineer.
Aether Vial
No need to prove the usefulness of this card in a tribal deck.
Force of will
It is played main deck in all the lists (except mine haha).
4 Cavern of Souls
Because we like to be uncounterables and play 5 colors.
4 Unclaimed Territory
A cave of souls without the uncounterable side.
4 Sliver Hive
Another 5-color land, only for playing Slivers. But do not trust it: the capacity of this land is hardly ever useful because it is far too heavy to pay; maybe from time to time in late game ontre control.
3 Mutavault
It's been a while since, like in Merfolk, the lists only play three.
2 Karakas
All the lists today play two main decks. They don't penalize base mana at all, and almost never cause color death. Be careful to simply sequence the lands.
3 Ancient Ziggurat
Multicolored lands, but with the defect of not being able to play vial, activate mutavault etc.
THE SIDE
Mainly anti-combo oriented: Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Containment Priest, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Force of Negation, and two or three Harmonic Sliver.
Envoyer des commentaires
3. WHY PLAY SLIVERS
- Because we are in confinement and there is only that to do
- To see his opponent's flabbergasted mine when he loses to Slivers!
- Because nobody is prepared against and that legacy decks are mostly not built to beat pure aggro.
- Because as a result, it is intrinsically built to beat fair decks.
- Because it's style.
- Because people have a priori on it and we have to defend diversity. The deck has really evolved over the past few years, but no one has really looked into it, considering it a losing pet deck on Wasteland and combo.
- Because the deck has excellent match ups, and plenty to fight against combos.
- And then it's the style.
- Because it’s still hot, fresh from the egg of its Sliver Queen, and just waiting to be played, tested and worked.
- Because it's still a cheap deck to buy.
- And above all, it's the style.
- Because it is an easy deck to play, which comes out easily and helps minimize play errors - which over a long tournament is good for bad guys like me.
- Because there are lots of other interesting Slivers that are just waiting to be tested: Leeching Sliver, Homing Sliver, Necrotic Sliver, Dregscape Sliver, Lavabelly Sliver, Syphon Sliver. Bonus point if you play a 5 color Sliver.
- Because you have to be one of the first to play it before people realize it's a solid tier 2 and really start to test it, and be able to say "I was there at the start, I was there when it is not performing. "
- Because since it is only considered as a pet deck and few people play it, it only waits for a good player to perfer.
- And above all it's style, don't look.
4. STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES OF DECK
STRENGTHS
Well, it is strong.
WEAKNESSES OF DECK
Well, there is none.
Ah yes, he loses on Glacial Chiasm, Tabernacle, Bridge, Humility, and Wasteland recursive if he did not have time to set-up. And then when the opponent is too naughty and he manages our slivers one by one or with a board shave, it's not very nice.
STRENGTH IN THE META
The deck currently benefits from a meta which is particularly favorable to it. Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista allow decks to have very easy access to basics, therefore less balance sheet, therefore less Wasteland, therefore less Blood Moon etc. And the slivos make fun of Oko.
5. LIST OF MATCH UP
From there, this is only my personal opinion. What, how has it been from the start?
It should be understood that Slivers is a deck that is hardly ever played. As a result, it is complex to get accurate match ups based on games from hundreds of players around the world. We are only a handful of diehard Slivers !
(You should be careful with the data below, which is based only on my own gaming experience and my own list, which is completly different from the others lists).
I had to play IRL and online more than 200 games, and double it in goldfish. I keep a Google Sheet up to date with the different match ups I meet. I have counted more than 180 games to date. At the bottom, in sheet 2 "MATCHUPS", you have the percentage of winrate of each match up as well as the number of set played.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fqmr0_MzzdiDXSwWEIG7Ewi7p4rECVqLj-k5q0TwlJs/edit#gid=1696469013
To whomever wants it, I am available to play games on Cockatrice in order to test and specify certain match ups. If you want more details on some match ups, don't hesitate.
Here is a brief list of the different meta match ups:
Delver
Positive
Each card in the deck is a sore for them. 8 essentials (Vial, Cavern), 8 to 11 protectors (Crystalline, Hibernation, Mariner), 8 flying (Galerider, Cloudshredder), and 12 lords, the match up is complicated for Delver.
The Delver version that is most likely to get by is Grixis Delver, because he plays Plague Engineer. A Plague on the board is not such a big deal if you have at least one Lord or a Plated Sliver to protect, but two Plague and it will be game most of the time.
Side: Chalice IN, Hibernation OUT (to use it is to lose PV and put us out of time).
BUG, Bant, aggro Loam midrange decks and everything that plays Uro
Positive
It is mainly about revolving around Ice-Fangs (thanks to the Striking Sliver). Oko is not a problem, we can even ignore him and let him do his stuff, he does not catch up with the race.
Side: nothing
Miracles
Balanced to positive
Slivers is historically the predator of Miracles. But recent versions have more weapons with Oko, Ice-Fang and Mystic Sanctuary, and some vicious like play Blood Moon in side. The match up is not as simple as it used to be, and you have to know how to turn around the Ice-Fang and Terminus. A good knowledge of the match up is essential.
Side: I would have said Calice before, but I'm less and less sure (the deck has learned to play against and now has a lot of weapons against).
Food Chain / Aluren
Positive
We will play this match up in the same way as midrangs such as BUG Control. Watch out for Ice-Fang and Ballistas.
Side: Harmonic Sliver, not sure.
Death and Taxes
Very positive
A butcher shop, too bad the deck disappeared from the meta because of Oko, we would like to meet more!
Side: We can, if need be, bring in the Harmonics, but it's not even necessary because win-more.
Eldrazi
Slightly positive
The match up will really depend on everyone's exit. If they have a good outing with Mimic, Knot Seer and Smasher, it's going to be complicated. You have to be either more aggressive than them, or stay in defense in order to prevent them from attacking, gaining weight and then attacking them with a fly.
The Sliver Striking is a key card in the match up: T1 first Strike, T2 lord and it is a wall that is difficult to manage.
Side: nothing special
Cloudpost
Slightly negative
Again, this is a question of exit. If we manage to be faster than them it's won, but if they manage to set-up with a Ugin shot or with an All is Dust well placed, it's over.
Side: Harmonic Sliver
Lands
Unbeatable. You can concede and leave to cry in PLS by eating a Bigmac.
Recursive Wasteland, Looping Punishing Fire, Tabernacle, Glacial Chiasm ... So many cards that crush us.
Side: whatever you want, it's dead anyway.
Burn
Negative
Burn is faster than us, the Eidolons really hurt us without the Vial, Price of Progress impaled us ... It's hard. He really has to have a soft exit to win. He's the attacker and we have to stay on defense.
Advice: stay in two lands no matter what to minimize the damage of the Price. When I played Syphon Sliver main deck or Leyline of Sanctity on the side, the winrate was positive.
Side: not even sure of the chalices. It's slow, it decreases our clock, it takes Smash to Smithereens...
Moon Stompy
Very negative
Blood Moon, Bridge, Chalice 1 or Abrade on Vial, Karn, turbo Rabblemaster ... Each of these cards impaled us. It's very complicated, but good aggro and a well-placed Force of Will can make a difference.
Side: Harmonic Sliver
Dark depths
Positive
The match up is complicated for the Depths player: we manage Marit Lage quite easily thanks to Karakas and theft (bonus if Hibernation is there to chump block). You just have to plan the Marit Lage outings carefully and be careful to keep blockers.
Side: nothing special
Réanimator
Positive
Basic, just like for Marit Lage and Sneak Show, we have Force of Will, Karakas and fly + Hibernation which can always fly the game 1. Post side, we have antgrave.
Side: antigrave
Sneak Show
Balanced
Just like against Dark Depths and Réanimator, we have access to the game 1 Force of Will, Karakas and fly + Hibernation. Show and Tell gives us the opportunity to pose a threat for free, and I have won the race against an Emrakül several times, even after an annihilating attack.
Side: Harmonic Sliver
Dredge
Positive
As often, we will lose game 1 and then return from the antigrave. But even G1, if the Dredge has a slightly soft output we can win the aggro race.
Side: antigrave
ANT / TES
Balanced
I refer you to this game by Bryant Cook against Daniel Nunes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYojVO0Dek8&fbclid=IwAR1H1rR8rGjzW0qv_B4SiidaMfLG5RNxoppsltK90GFN7ohrF5Ore4kppAA
The G1 is complicated (even if you can win it with Fow and Mariner + clock), and post side we take in all the haste in the world with Chalices, antigrav etc
Side: Chalice, antigrave, and all that comes to hand! But be careful not to dilute your aggro too much.
Bomberman
Negative
We have weapons against him: FoW, Chalice at 0, Harmonic Sliver, all that with a big aggro. But outings based on Mentor T1 are complicated to manage.
Side: Chalice, Harmonic Sliver (for Bridge in particular, otherwise it's game).
Elves
Balanced
Surprisingly, the Slivers are doing pretty well against green tights. We are negative in game 1, then we're favored in game 2 thanks to Chalice and Cage.
Side: Chalice, cage, antigrave
Infect
Balanced
Same observation as for Elves. The advantage of Infect is that it can do a T2 turbo kill, and the Blighted Agent is a real problem.
Side: Chalice
Presentation of my list.
Well, maybe I will do it later
played last tuesday at my local with this version, which is extremely close to daniel nunes' lists. i spoke with him a little on fb and i think that helped iron out some of the deck construction.
matchups:
r1: infect (0-2)
lost to blighted agent quickly in 2 games
r2: rug breach (2-1)
g1 lost to combo
g2 and 3 i drew a combination of leylines, chalice, mariners (to protect the former 2), fow
r3: eldrazi (2-0)
striking sliver was very helpful here
r4: miracles
g1 i was overpowered by terminus and mystic sanctuary
g2 and g3 were still close, but i had great draws and didn't overextend.
thoughts:
i might consider plague engineer in the sb. it can help in a lot of matchups and is very castable. i didn't mind having 1 karakas and also was fine with mana confluence, but my sample size in games is quite small. i would have loved to use sliver hive in the miracles matchup, but it didn't come up when i had enough mana to use.
3 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Striking Sliver
3 Unsettled Mariner
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
SB:
1 Unsettled Mariner
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Force of Negation
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Harmonic Sliver
4 Leyline of the Void
-rob
Hello,
I think Sidewinder overlaps too much with Striking. It is all for the offensive side and sometimes, I am on the defensive side. Especially early game because sliver needs to reach a critical mass to be deadly.
My actual split is the following
3 striking -> considering upping to 4 as you always want 1, especially with all those flying snakes around
2 plated -> better overall than sidewinder
2 venom -> deathtouch+first strike is real
2 syphon -> Can't live without those. Building a board presence often means not chump blocking and when you finally reach the critical mass, attacking/defending while gaining back lost life is HUGE.
2 cloud -> I was hyped but after testing I'll stick with 2 (as the old tech of 2 winged sliver). Haste is sometime needed but deck' space is tight...very tight. Evasion is sometimes needed but forcing your way through with pure force also works.
4 Galerider
4 Hibernation
4 Mariner -> in some MU almost acts as a FOW, a stifle...swiss army knife.
4 Crysta
9 lords -> considering swapping 1 out for the 4th striking. Although I do like having 9/10 lords. Plated is a good improvement to be honest as they somehow act as "little" lord 9 and 10 (even more with striking + venom)
No FOW and 4 vials (FOW in SB)
Still trying to find what the best mana config should be. SB is up in the air.
1) 14 CMC 1.Period. Having +90% odds to have a CMC1 in an opener is definitely where I want to be and participate @ building a board presence.
2) Manabase is rough // tough. If you include SB strategy involving other color/creature type it gets even messier.
Keep up zerging :p
Ralf.
Here me out . . . . Lurrus. All your permanents are <=CMC 2, Lurrus would give you the ability to recur slivers that were destroyed etc, doesn't take up any room MD, etc. Although with Lurrus in SB, you might think about adding in Bauble and Petal . . .
Hi all. Haven't played in a couple years, but I've been kind of keeping an eye on the Legacy scene. Thought I'd pop in to update the OP/Primer. Honestly, it could use a lot more fleshing out, but at least it's not so woefully out of date any more. Daniel Nunes' list looks really good. What are the current thoughts on Wasteland vs Mutavault?
mistercakes
11-20-2020, 12:21 AM
I'd honestly just run Daniel's list card for card if you want the best list. He's been playing the deck nonstop for years. He does post on the Facebook group from time to time as well.
By the way, if someone with recent and substantial experience playing this deck in Legacy wants to drop some notes in here regarding any of the prominent matchups, that would be great. If you don't mind me lifting them, say so, and I'll put them into the primer and credit you. Same goes for any notes on sideboarding strategies. I've been away for a while, so I've got some catching up to do.
363
Spoiler from Kaldheim. Anyone see this being playable?
Welcome back, Volt. I think Realmwalker is promising as a midgame card. I could see two copies main. It doesn't help build velocity, so it might be metagame-dependent. Needs testing.
As far as matchups, you might ping Daniel Nunes (https://twitter.com/danielnunesmtg?lang=en), who has a lot of success with the deck and recently got a CFB feature (https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/mtg/channelmagic-articles/deck-highlight-legacy-slivers).
Weapon X
12-18-2023, 10:13 AM
Well, figure I’ll do a post as this was my latest deck to use in our league.
4 galerider sliver
4 predatory sliver
4 sinew sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 crystalline sliver
4 hibernation sliver
2 cloudshredder sliver
2 force of negation
4 impulse
4 force of will
4 aether vial
1 underground sea
1 tundra
1 tropical island
1 island
4 city of brass
4 cavern of souls
4 unclaimed territory
4 secluded courtyard
Sideboard
1 rushing river
2 harmonic sliver
2 mindbreak trap
3 surgical extraction
3 dismember
1 dormant sliver
3 chalice of the void
Having played merfolk earlier in league, slivers felt underwhelming. The main issue was if I can’t get the hooks in, the lack of card draw pulled me farther away. I played a dormant sliver in the board for this reason and that seemed fine. I think the biggest change I did was play 4x impulse. Needing a way to find cards was the justification, but again, just not gaining card advantage is the big hurdle. Given the state of things, merfolk is the better sliver deck right now, but they aren’t positioned very well.
And I guess just as an aside, I was considering diffusion sliver because ward 2 felt better then 1.
What were you playing as your list?
Once Upon A Time seems better than Impulse, if you're trying to avoid Brainstorm.
Is there no playable source of tribal card draw?
It's too bad you can't add something like Esper Sentinel as card draw.
What about Realmwalker?
What about playing Thalia main?
Weapon X
12-18-2023, 07:58 PM
List added.
So I guess this experience has me missing the old “bant counter slivers”. I think that could fair better as you then get to play duals and fetches plus have the ability to play actual removal and card draw spells. Like Leyline binding suddenly could be an option with duals as an example.
Dormant sliver is the best tribal card draw that I remembered but it means you have to lose the hooks. That said the games I sided into it was because I would lose the hooks anyway.
Once upon a time is fine, but I wanted impulse because it’s blue and doesn’t restrict my card choice. If I’m casting impulse it’s because I need to find something.
And just to touch on creature suggestions, because I was into the tribal mana base I don’t think non slivers are an option.
What if you go back to Bant?
//Slivers: 25
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Unsettled Mariner
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial
//Spells: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Once Upon A Time
//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
16 Bant lands
Playing Daze instead of FoN seems better for card advantage.
Hibernation is great but I don't think red is worth going 5c. Bant is stable mana + Daze. Realmwalker is also an option.
Plated Sliver is kind of bad but you need to get board presence turn 1 to get the hooks in fast enough. An extra 1 drop + OuAT should help that a lot. The +1 does help vs Bowmasters and Plagues
Weapon X
12-18-2023, 10:59 PM
To do it again I probably would go bant. Being unable to play non creature spells was a hinderance for sure. Being able to play fetches to aid in avoiding flooding will also be great. Could be a reason to also play eladmri’s call again.
With Bant lands you can consider cards like Swords to Plowshares, Prismatic Ending, Daze, Deafening Silence...
Eladamri's Call digs better than Impulse or OUAT, but OUAT has a big tempo advantage of being free on turn 1.
Realmwalker is a Sliver creature and draws Slivers from top of library
Mirror Entity and Masked Vandal and Changeling Outcast are also Sliver creatures.
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