[Deck] Infernal Bargain - A different view on Tendrils

[Danarim]

Cards from portal are tech. Cruel Bargain may be an example. It may seem nothing new, because there is already a card with exactly that effect and cost, but now we're allowed to run 8 of them. I seriously consider it as a new base for a tendrils deck - I think the first results are promising. There are many skilled combo players on this forum (Nausea the prove), I count on your feedback ;).

Draw4 v.1.01

Lands:
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
4 Land Grant

Mana:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond

Draw&tutor:
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Night's Whisper
3 Diabolic Intent

Free food:
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
2 Ornithopter

Win:
4 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Compost
3 Seedtime

Some card choices:

Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract/Night's Whisper
The huge advantage of those cards is the fact that thay have no drawback of the meditate sort - you can play them before going off and it's quite a good business. The lifeloss drawback isn't that big as it may seem - you can play a totally sufficient amount of them during the game, if your opponent isn't playing Burn. The walls additionally protect you from random small creatures in the first three turns. Furthermore, if you happen to fizzle, it's not a tragedy - you can often tendrils for 10, then try again the next turn, with a 7-cards hand.

Diabolic Intent/Culling the Weak + free crits
8x rituals is definitely not sufficient for this deck. Culling the Weak tries to solve it and does it quite well. The synergy of the free crits with the strategy of the deck is brilliant, they create a nice storm amount, defend your hit points and above all they feed the 'demonic tutor', which strongly increases the deck's consistancy.

Mox Diamond
The 'random mox diamonds' are there for situations (that happen quite often) when you played a bunch of draw and you have some lands in your hand that do just nothing. Worked well for me.

Swamps
Running mostly basic lands is good. This is a thing that Nausea doesn't.

Some results:

Results of goldfishing with the actual version of the deck:
Turn 1 0
Turn 2 IIIII
Turn 3 IIIIIIIIIIII
Turn 4 IIIII
Turn 5 0
Fizzle IIIII
Suicide 0

It still sucks vs red gro variants and burn, but I think it's worth working on it.

Comments and critique welcomed.

Edit: Changed blood pet into orni and raised the land grants numer.

[Rood]

This deck was created by me about 2 months ago. It uses the portal/mirage drawing spells. Well let me post the deck.
Muck-Tide v1(Created By the Roodmistah)
Lands:(17)
4x Bloodstained Mire
13x Swamps
Artifacts:(11)
4x Lotus Petal
3x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Defense Grid
Instants/Sorceries:(32)
4x Cruel Bargain
4x Infernal Contract
3x Night's Whisper
2x Desperate Research
4x Dark Rituals
4x Cabal Rituals
4x Bubbling Mucks
3x Rain of Filth
4x Tedrils Of Agony
Sideboard Choices:
4x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Powder Keg
4x Engineered Plague
3x Duress
And now for my card choices:
Swamps: They're basic and untargetable by wasteland.
Bloodstained Mire: Good for cabal ritual and land thinning.
Lotus Petal: Free mana Excel for my bubbling muck and it has the ability to do alot of good duing mid-combo when u need just 1 mana.
Candelabra of Tawnos: Bubbling Muck + This is insanely godly.
Bubbling Muck:Allows all my lands to produce more mana and it's really good.
Defense Grid: What your playing GRO? What you're playing any counter/burn deck. Well that's nice for you. First turn Grid Easy.
Infernal Contract: Lost Half my life for 4 cards. Quite easily very broken.
Cruel Bargain: Same cards tech from portal.
Desperate Research: Digs for missing combo essentials such as bubbling muck and dark rituals. In Mid-combo u fetch and a tendrils and it's game
Dark Ritual/Cabal ritual: Mana Excel.
Rain Of Filth: With 3 lands turn 3 it's just like a dark ritual and i can sac my lands to boost up the threshold for my cabal rituals.
Tendrils of Agony: Broken. End of story.
Sideboard Choices:
4x Nevinyrral's Disk: It gets rid of any threats(Meddling Mage, Chalice, Trinisphere, anything.)
4x Powder Keg:It also gets rid of any threats with disk.
4x Engineered Plague:Tribe decks like gobbos cripples them.
3x Duress: Hand manipulator very good against most decks.
Post replays and tell me what u guys think!

[vanele]

could we have ur Matchups please?
and towrds the G/b version why donesnt ur sideboard have any creature destruction enchantment or arifact hate, what would u do if u got matched up against pillar or believer or sphere?

[Danarim]

Muck-Tide v1(Created By the Roodmistah)
First, thanks for your feedback. Nice to see that someone already have worked on the idea. However, I have many doubts on the bubbling muck engine. With no bubbling muck + candelabra on hand, you have no chances to win turn 2 - you absolutely need the three lands. That also means you have to run more of them - the influence on the deck is bad. Rain of filth is also problematic - it needs multiple swamps, and it sucks when you draw two of them during the game - it will happen quite often. Sacrificing your lands isn't the best thing in the world when you hope drawing the candelabra/bubbling muck combo. Does desperate research work good for you? I have the feeling that it fizzles too often to be worth playing. Is there a reason for running md defense grids instead of duress? Duress cannot be destroyed, costs less and can fight random combo hate.


4x Bloodstained Mire
I do not recommend paining yourself, while it means you can play less draw spells. If you like fetching, play Land Grant.

I doubt that you have a stable three turns clock, but I agree that bubbling muck + candelabra could be a nice base to build a deck around.


and towrds the G/b version why donesnt ur sideboard have any creature destruction enchantment or arifact hate, what would u do if u got matched up against pillar or believer or sphere?
You're absolutely right. A combination of naturalizes/smothers (any other suggestions?) may fit well, in the place of the composts.


could we have ur Matchups please?
I'll put them as fast as I'll build a decent sideboard ;).

[Nightmare]

From a quick round of Goldfishing this deck, I'd say it's strength is in its ability to "go off" without actually losing the game when it fizzles. A bunch of times, I hit a less than lethal Tendrils, only to regain a ton of life, then Contract or Bargain into the rest of the win on the next turn. The "Gain 2 life" part of Tendrils is this deck's best friend. One problem I've found is that it seems to be short on creatures occasionally. I've cut 1 Night's Whisper and added 1 more Walker. That's been showing positive results so far, as Whispers are basically bad Contracts in this deck. With unrestricted Demonic Tutor in the deck, you really need at least 2 creatures to go off; 1 to sack for mana, and at least one for the oh shit button when you need Tendrils now.

Edit - Blood Pet Sucks ass. I'd always rather have Ornithopter or a Kobold. His techy sac for B is basically worthless, as at best he'd sac for Intent or Culling, and at worst, he takes a hit from Lackey. Thopter has the advantage of surviving that hit, so I would run him.

[Hoojo]

Has anyone tested Lion's Eye Diamond? It might not work the way this deck is set up, but cracking one in response to your own Bargain/Contract is a good way to get mana and add +1 storm for free.

[Grollub]

Wow. Great minds think alike. I've been pondering an almost exact same decklist..
Have you tested Cabal Therapy as a way to clear your opponent's hand easily, as well as adding two storm for just one mana. :)

Creatures - 10
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
2 Ornichopter

Disruption - 4
4 Cabal Therapy

Draw/Search - 12
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargains
4 Diabolic Intent

Test Slots:: 4
4 Night's Whisper

Kill - 4
4 Tendril's of Agony

Speed - 16
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal

"Lands" - 10
4 Land Grant
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Bayou

Sideboard::
4 Xantid Swarm
Go Blue!
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Echoing Truth
2 Chain Vapor

How's the Mox Diamonds been working for you? I so much wish we could have Skullclamp in this deck. :-P

[Danarim]

One problem I've found is that it seems to be short on creatures occasionally. I've cut 1 Night's Whisper and added 1 more Walker. That's been showing positive results so far, as Whispers are basically bad Contracts in this deck.
That's not a bad idea, I can't disagree with the fact that whispers is one of the weakest pieces.


Blood Pet Sucks ass. I'd always rather have Ornithopter or a Kobold. His techy sac for B is basically worthless, as at best he'd sac for Intent or Culling, and at worst, he takes a hit from Lackey. Thopter has the advantage of surviving that hit, so I would run him.
Lackey is a good argument, but I can't agree with you on the uselessity of blood pet's ability. When you have no ritual+contract in hand, blood pet is the best first turn drop so far. But still, with goblins beeing a horde in the metagame, I won't discuss.


Has anyone tested Lion's Eye Diamond? It might not work the way this deck is set up, but cracking one in response to your own Bargain/Contract is a good way to get mana and add +1 storm for free.
I was waiting for that :). Yes, I did. I have tested 2x and 4x LED, and found it strictly worse than any of the rituals we're running. LED in response to contract is cool, but the fact you're freezed when you have no other ritual in hand or when you want to tendrils incredibly sux. While playing this deck, you have too often a huge hand to leave it in the grave like that. As it was said, culling the weak does the job better.


Wow. Great minds think alike. I've been pondering an almost exact same decklist..
That's nice to hear. The builds are in fact incredibly similar (mention the colored lands in the sideboard!).


Have you tested Cabal Therapy as a way to clear your opponent's hand easily, as well as adding two storm for just one mana. :)
Of course I did, that's just the eternal question - main or sideboard. I have to test it more.


How's the Mox Diamonds been working for you?
Quite well - it's almost petal, this deck loves free dark ritual enablers. However, with main therapy, I think I would cut them.


4 Land Grant
I'm still unsure if it is better to have more land grants, because of bayou's vulnerability to wasteland, but I think I'll finally add them.


2 Polluted Delta
I must say no. Polluted Delta means 'you can play one less draw spell during the game'. 1 HP does not make the difference very often, but fizzling for such a reason is unacceptable.

[Nightmare]

So, I just tested your first list with my adjustments:

-4 Blood Pet
-1 Night's Whisper
+4 Ornithopter
+1 Walker

Twenty Games of Fishing, these were the results:

Turn 1: I
Turn 2: III
Turn 3: II
Turn 4: IIII
Turn Dead: III
Fizzle: IIIIIII (7)

What happenned? Well, when I went to turn dead, twice it was because of having Zero Draw spells until turn 6 or 7. Once it was because of a one land game, trying to go off turn 4 on ritual mana alone.

Two fizzles i wrote down. The first was running out of creatures at 2 life, with Whisper and Intent in hand, plenty of mana, and Ornithopter 2 cards down. The second was me at 4 mana and 8 spells, needing to choose between Tendrils and Contract. Missed the Culling off Contract, lost. This happenned more than one time. I think it might be worth it to Tendrils in this situation in the future, and hope to Contract into the win.

The turn 1 win was with the following hand:

Bayou
Tendrils
Culling
Ornithopter
Bargain
Lotus Petal
Shield Sphere

Here's how it played:
Play Bayou. Ornithopter, Cull it (BBBB)(2). Bargain into dark Ritual x2, Phyrexian Walker, Lotus Petal (B)(3). Petal, Petal (BBB)(5). Ritual, Ritual, Free dudes (BBBBBBB)(9). Tendrils for 20. Pretty much the god hand.

Here's what I think. Test Blue in the place of Green. Land Grant isn't that great. Hurkyl's Recall could be NUTS in this build. Here's a test list:


4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Island
4x Swamp

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Lotus Petal

3x Cruel Bargain
3x Infernal Contract
3x Meditate
4x Diabolic Intent
2x Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild

4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Shield Sphere
3x Ornithopter

4x Tendrils Of Agony

[Rood]

If you try test playing a non culling version it may be a more stronger build for you. I find my build to be able to go off turn 3 almost every game, but it doesn't have the ability to go off turn 2. It's a sacrifice im willing to take.

[Danarim]

Twenty Games of Fishing, these were the results:

Turn 1: I
Turn 2: III
Turn 3: II
Turn 4: IIII
Turn Dead: III
Fizzle: IIIIIII (7)

What happenned? Well, when I went to turn dead, twice it was because of having Zero Draw spells until turn 6 or 7. Once it was because of a one land game, trying to go off turn 4 on ritual mana alone.

That's disapointing. Maybe you're playing something wrong, but the situations you are describing seem really to be no way ones. The deck's weakness seems to be the lack of library rearanging/cantrips and I have no idea how to fix it - I found nothing better than diabolic intent (tested tainted pact, for example). However, I'm still an optimist. I made a little goldfishing just minutes ago (10x), for testing 4x land grant, and here are my results.

T2 III
T3 IIIII
T4 I
Fizzle II

Concerning the strategy, I usually try to concentrate on the third turn. It means that I play 1st turn or 2nd mana accel only if I have a contract. If not, I play calmly whispers and intent.


Here's what I think. Test Blue in the place of Green. Land Grant isn't that great. Hurkyl's Recall could be NUTS in this build.
That's worth testing but has its evident disadvantages. I'd probably run mox diamond.

Edit:

If you try test playing a non culling version it may be a more stronger build for you. I find my build to be able to go off turn 3 almost every game, but it doesn't have the ability to go off turn 2. It's a sacrifice im willing to take.
I will try to goldfish it, but I'm sceptic (especially while you're not presenting arguments), mainly because you're running many cards that are dead in dozens of situations (rain, bubbling muck, the tapping artifact). Since you have a constant 3rd turn kill, I'll be glad if you post here some goldfishing results.

[Rood]

Denarim, your focus should be on a turn 3 kill, which should be pretty easy seeing as though you run tutors to search for your missing combo essentials. Still, what do u have on lets say control deck or sly/burn decks. It still needs some revising which is why i would strongly suggest running at least defense grids in the SB of 4x.

[Danarim]

Denarim, your focus should be on a turn 3 kill, which should be pretty easy seeing as though you run tutors to search for your missing combo essentials.
So, you have two turns for building a hand/board able to let you go off - three swamps, draw spells, rituals that work. Could you explain me how do you do it, mentioning that your only manipulation/search spell is 2x desperate search? I don't know if you realize, but drawing into multiples grids, rains, candelabras without bubbling muck, bubbling mucks without candelabra or whatever of that kind kills you, not mentioning simple situations when the 'working' cards you have are not sufficient. That's what is called 'lack of consistancy'. That said, I'm still very curious of your goldfishing results.

Edit:
Overall, Mr Nightmare is perfectly right on blood pet's suckiness, its lack of synergy with culling the weak is in fact a too big disadvantage, when compared to thopter. 2x Ornithopters welcome.

[Evil Roopey]

How does this deck do against counters? I haven't got around to testing it, but it seems solid. Also, the deck should be called Draw4, because that would be awesome.

Roop

[Nightmare]

I was thinking the exact same thing for the name. Like the Uno card. Hurkyl's is out, by the way. It doesn't work nearly as well as I had hoped. However, Blue is still worth running, if for nothing other than Meditate. How many Draw4's can you fit in here? Now testing my last list -2 Hurkyl's, +1 Meditate, +1 other Draw4.

Edit - Got another turn 1 win. Swamp, Ritual, Petal, Meditate, Ritual, Shield Sphere, Intent for Tendrils, Thopter, Cull, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils for 20.

Edit #2 - Did we just make Legacy Long.dec??

[Danarim]

the deck should be called Draw4, because that would be awesome.
Good point :). Changed the name in the topic.


How does this deck do against counters?

First, the 1st turn ritual + draw4 is a devastating play. If fowed, it's 2 cards vs 2, and it's easy to recover after. If not, it practically wins the control match. If you have to set up your hand first, it's more difficult. The must counter spells are contract and bargain, so it gives you the possibility of casting whispers and diabolic with no harm, allowing to build a decent hand quickly. Then, consequently play draw4 each turn you can, hoping it won't be countered a day. Postboard, the terapies help a lot, I believe them to be much better here than duress. I tested the deck against landstill and it worked quite well. The biggest problem aren't really counters, the things I'm worried are stifle, lock artifacts and instant burn spells.


Did we just make Legacy Long.dec??
Haha, it would be great :).

Edit:
I have to agree that (boarded) chain of vapors are simply awesome, with maindecked blue sources it leaves many sb slots. 4x chain, 4x therapy, do we need something more?

[Lukas Preuss]

Wow. This deck definitely looks interesting. How does it do against aggro-control like Threshold?

[Evil Roopey]

do we need something more?

Burning Wish. It is probably the main reason to run Nausea over this. I have done some testing, but I haven't added red yet. I'll get back to you when I come up with my final list.

[Nightmare]

Just wanted to point out that with my newest list (see a few posts up) I just won turn 2 Vs. Goblins with NO LAND. I like this deck a LOT.

[Bane of the Living]

I definitly wouldn't run this deck over Nausea yes, being that it has burning wish for its 'outs'.

This deck seems to crumble if it relys on a draw 4 and it gets countered. I also lose games straight up to meddling mage. Try to work red in for burning wish, fuck blue. Red gives you crazy goodies like gamble in addition to wishes.

Lions Eye Diamond was discussed but only breifly. LED could actually make way for Death Wish. Death Wish is rare power at the hands of anyone thats played Long Death. Death Wish's ability to tutor you any card is actually very abusable. I would rather play diabolic intent if your not playing LED of course.

[Evil Roopey]

Turn 1 IIIIIIII
Turn 2 IIIIII
Turn 3 IIIII
Turn 4
Turn 5 I
Fizzle IIIIIIIIIIIIII

// Lands
4 [B] Swamp (1)
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
2 [R] Ornithopter
4 [AL] Shield Sphere

// Spells
4 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [OV] Meditate
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [PT] Cruel Bargain
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [OV] Infernal Contract
4 [EX] Culling the Weak

The deck is a lot easier to play than Nausea, but I would say I like Nausea more, just because it doesn't fizzle nearly as much. Although this deck has much more Turn1 kills than any deck I've seen in Legacy.

[Rood]

If I were you Roopey i wouldn't use the blue splash. It makes you vulnerable to wastelands. If you're really worried about the drawing engine just add in some night's whispers over meditates. It just makes the deck feel more reassuring if you don't run nonbasic lands. I also understand the blue splash could help somewhat with chain of vapor, etc. but mono black has ways with the mana excel to cast off a disk or keg game two. That said, you're decklist is looking more like a much worse nausea deck with the blue splashing.

[vanele]

So, you have two turns for building a hand/board able to let you go off - three swamps, draw spells, rituals that work. Could you explain me how do you do it, mentioning that your only manipulation/search spell is 2x desperate search? I don't know if you realize, but drawing into multiples grids, rains, candelabras without bubbling muck, bubbling mucks without candelabra or whatever of that kind kills you, not mentioning simple situations when the 'working' cards you have are not sufficient. That's what is called 'lack of consistancy'. That said, I'm still very curious of your goldfishing results.

Being that i am one of Rood's biggest play test partners, let me explain his deck seeing as he isnt good at comunicating well (usually a series of grunts and hand signals). The Defense Grids are due to the fact that we have a control heavy meta,(also i play Solidarity and there is 1 or 2 sligh decks). The idea is that droping a defense grid gives him turn 3, if he is going first, no chance to be interupted or burned seeing as his life is very very low near the end. He normally bargins first turn with a ritual to build hand or drops a candelabra. Second turn is noramlly a night's whisper or a defense grid depending on who he is plaing. Turn 3, the mana from muck is basicly an extra cabal ritual which combos out with candelabra. Its is good to start even without the candebra seeing as drawing into one isnt as bad as u think if u have the mana floating. The desperate reasearch are not used much pre-combo so much as mid combo when finding that last tendrils or the mana to cast it is neccerary.

As for the color on the build listed so far, the blue and the green seem consistant seeing as they can fight of hate rather well seeing as the hate from solidarity (- the gaea's blessing not that they are so hard to get around) also hits you.

@ lion's eye diamond
As much as it is nice to have the extra mana after a draw4, I dont like the fact that u sometimes have to ditch cards that might otherwise have been useful or leave behind a tendrils. Tested with a Rood build, i dont know if it is better in a turn 2 build.

@ mox diamond
Seems out of place in the blue build but in the green build with land grants seems like it would work well. Havent tested it.

@ Sideboard
I dont think death wish really belongs, u seem to have a fine tutor already, and even with diamond (which conviently leaves u 1 mana short of tendrils).
4 Smother
4 Naturalize/Chain of vapors
3 Plagues
4 xxxxxxxxx

.... Team King! Try new BK Joe!

[Rood]

-Exactly vanele. The whole purpose of the Grids is so you can beat counter/Sligh decks, seeing as there's no way a counter deck can stop a turn 1 Grid with Lotus Petals or Rituals, unless they get lucky enough to draw a FoW. Also, the Desperate Research can be used pre-combo to dig for Bubbling Muck if you have a candel or dig for dark rituals to get the combo going. But its main purpose is like vanele said, digging for a Tendrils if you don't hit one. That being said, I really think it should be tested in your build.

Post edited for clarity. Proper English ftw. - Zilla

[Danarim]

I had not much time for testing and I'm totally screwed right now (after 7 hours of math/physics exams), but I'm glad to see the discussion is living, I'll answer the most important things.


How does it do against aggro-control like Threshold?
It's rather terrible. If they play R, it's very, very hard. If they play Meddling Mage, it's also bad. If they run Stifle in side, it's a disaster. Dazes are deadful to the deck. At least, there are so many versions of that deck that I'll maybe meet a winnable against one :).


Burning Wish. It is probably the main reason to run Nausea over this. I have done some testing, but I haven't added red yet.
I agree burning wish is amazing, and I agree it shows its power in a more colored deck, which nausea is. However, I think adding red for it, when we already have diabolic intent, is too risky - practically all the colored mana goes for meditate.


Just wanted to point out that with my newest list (see a few posts up) I just won turn 2 Vs. Goblins with NO LAND. I like this deck a LOT.
This time it's more like belcher :).


Try to work red in for burning wish, fuck blue. Red gives you crazy goodies like gamble in addition to wishes.
Gamble may be in fact nice, but I found meditate effective and I won't cut it easy. Only one way - we have to test more.


The deck is a lot easier to play than Nausea, but I would say I like Nausea more, just because it doesn't fizzle nearly as much. Although this deck has much more Turn1 kills than any deck I've seen in Legacy.
I have to say I'm a little confused. I'd never thought it has such 1st turn kill possibilities, and I'd never thought it fizzles that often. Interesting results, in other words. We're probably playing the deck in a completely different way, you're maybe spending too much of your efforts on trying to win turn1. I personally like waiting a turn just for dropping one land more and drawing one card more, when I see my hand isn't super-porno.


I also understand the blue splash could help somewhat with chain of vapor, etc. but mono black has ways with the mana excel to cast off a disk or keg game two.
That's terribly slow. Note that we're playing combo.


The Defense Grids are due to the fact that we have a control heavy meta,(also i play Solidarity and there is 1 or 2 sligh decks). The idea is that droping a defense grid gives him turn 3, if he is going first, no chance to be interupted or burned seeing as his life is very very low near the end.
Ok, let's threat is as a metagame slot (because it is). I agree the possibility of protecting you from either counter magic and instant burn spells is worthy.


Second turn is noramlly a night's whisper or a defense grid depending on who he is plaing. Turn 3, the mana from muck is basicly an extra cabal ritual which combos out with candelabra. Its is good to start even without the candebra seeing as drawing into one isnt as bad as u think if u have the mana floating.
In simple words - this engine has many, many weaknesses the culling one has not. I'm a bit tired with this discussion - I hope that some other player will point those reasons.


The desperate reasearch are not used much pre-combo so much as mid combo when finding that last tendrils or the mana to cast it is neccerary.
Desperate research has been proved suboptimal, as it does nothing for 1B more often than 50% of the time.


death wish
Rather low synergy with the draw4 and not easy to hardcast (the main reason I wouldn't run it). You can't play it turn 2 with no acceleration waste. Walker, diabolic for cabal ritual, ritual is a business in storm making, with death wish it would be rather bad.


And now for something different, some other ideas. First, chain of vapor is nuts. A main one is a response to a number of hate cards (meddling mage especially), and still isn't a 'wasted' slot. It won me games when I had an huge amount of mana acceleration and tendrils, but not draw spells. Secondly, I'm actually testing chromatic sphere as a cheap cantrip, that can be casted earlier and that filtrates mana. I'm still unsure of that idea, it's not the helm engine and 1 for 2 isn't that good, but the deck simply lacks of cantrips. For the burn problem, I've found zuran orb quite effective. Sacrificing your lands in resp to the deadly burn spells is free and it works, it might be a sideboard option to consider.
While I won't have much time this week, I did some goldfishing recently (for testing the sphere).
Here's the decklist:

Draw4 v.1.03

Main:
4 Bayou
6 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta (yes, it's not THAT bad as I thought)

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond (it still works well, especially with chain)

4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
3 Meditate
3 Diabolic Intent

4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
2 Ornithopter
1 Chromatic Sphere

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Zuran Orb
4 Defense Grid?

And the results:

T1 I
T2 IIIIIIIIII
T3 III
T4 IIIII
T5 II
Fizl/Tdead IIIIII

The T5 and some T4 were the result of fizzling after playing meditate. Fizl - variously, from totally crap hands to tendrils for 18 and not drawing anything interesting for a couple of turns.

[Rood]

Ok, let's threat is as a metagame slot (because it is). I agree the possibility of protecting you from either counter magic and instant burn spells is worthy.

Sideboard:
4 Defense Grid?


Threshold decks/Control decks and Sligh decks are heavily used in the format. If you look in Top decklists you can see there's alot of Threshold/Burn decks taking the top places in tournaments. It seems worthy to me to MD them you get it out turn one against them and let them cry. Then you can get out your combo next turn without breaking a sweat.

[Bastian]

Shouldn't you be packing answers to Chalice of the Void? Chalice of the Void for 0 is the sh!t against this deck and I'm not seeing anything to circumvent it. How about Echoing Truth in the SB?

[Bane of the Living]

Ok what about this deck vs iggy pop? If we all admit this deck isnt as good as nausea and if its not as good as iggy pop then why would I play it?

Iggy Pop does have LED and boy does it carry the deck. Ill Gotten Gains is a house and maybe adding it to the deck would improve the deck. Maybe it wouldnt fizzle out so much.

[Danarim]

Shouldn't you be packing answers to Chalice of the Void? Chalice of the Void for 0 is the sh!t against this deck and I'm not seeing anything to circumvent it. How about Echoing Truth in the SB?
I run actually a main Chain of Vapor and three in the SB. Echoing Truth is strictly inferior.


If we all admit this deck isnt as good as nausea and if its not as good as iggy pop then why would I play it?
I don't think it's the proper time to tell if everybody says it's worse than nausea or not. Nausea has a huge topic that counts 20 pages (and it's not the only one that has been), and it's in the 'open legacy' category. That means people have already worked on it a nice time, trying to build an optimal decklist, and a strategy how to play it. Here, it's 'new and developmental', note that the decklist changed much since it was created, and we're talking of time counted in days. When I played Nausea the first time (it was certainly a worse build than the actual ones), I was fizzling more often than killing in summary, and with a terribly late average time. Now we have a good decklist and we now how to play it. Nobody's trying here to tell you 'run this over Nausea' (maybe except Roodmistah, but he's speaking of a different deck), we're just working on using the possibilities of the engine. I don't believe the results I posted yesterday to be really bad, and I don't think we have already done all the job.
The reason you should maybe play it - improvement.


Iggy Pop does have LED and boy does it carry the deck. Ill Gotten Gains is a house and maybe adding it to the deck would improve the deck. Maybe it wouldnt fizzle out so much.
Let's try. What would the Ill-Gotten choice be? I believe draw4/(tendrils)+cabal ritual+cabal ritual enabler. It gives draw4 + 3 mana for 5 mana, in other words it allows to continue the gameplan with really big chances to win, for 5 mana. But I don't think it's stricly better than having a draw4 instead of Ill-Gotten - that gives draw4 + 2 mana for 5 mana and is much, much more stable, just because you can play it in much more situations, with no grave dependency, and no 'discard your tendrils' drawback.

[Grollub]

I agree, Ill-Gotten gains seems a little out of focus, and allows the random anti-graveyard hate to hit you as well. I'd rather have a draw 4 that's always useful (baring sitting at 1 life).

How's the Meditates been treating you guys? I kinda liked the ability to only do a "semi-combo turn" (tm), and having a not lethal Tendrils fill you up so you could survive next turn and then win with a relative small one. Meditate kinda disable that option, but if the gas it provides overweight it, I suppose it's goody. ;)

Now, I'm a little tired after getting home from work, but could Reaping the Graves do something interesting? Might be too costly, but just thought it was a kinda interesting way to easily make Tendrils lethal and be able to always have creatures to sac.

[noobslayer]

4 Bayou


Forgive me, but isn't that underground Sea?

[Danarim]

Forgive me, but isn't that underground Sea?
Sure it is.


How's the Meditates been treating you guys? I kinda liked the ability to only do a "semi-combo turn" (tm), and having a not lethal Tendrils fill you up so you could survive next turn and then win with a relative small one. Meditate kinda disable that option, but if the gas it provides overweight it, I suppose it's goody. ;)
Meditate rocks. Hard. It allows to focus on a 2nd turn kill, because of the speed it gives. Yes, sometimes it fizzles and the drawback causes a 4th/5th turn kill instead of an earlier one, but the advantages are simply not comparable. It's worth playing, I'm also curious how your goldfishing results would be.


Now, I'm a little tired after getting home from work, but could Reaping the Graves do something interesting? Might be too costly, but just thought it was a kinda interesting way to easily make Tendrils lethal and be able to always have creatures to sac.
It's just another spell that sounds good when you already have storm, mana, cards and graveyard, but doesn't improve the deck's consistancy. The mana cost is also too high.

[on1y0ne]

So I have been toying with this deck a little, and realized it was missing something. I don't know if I have found what it was missing, but I did make a few changes to the list.

-1 Tendrils
-1 Chromatic Sphere
-1 Chain of Vapor

+3 Skulltap

Now before any of you flame me for taking out the Chain of Vapor, I already realize it was a mistake, so shut the hell up. Anyway, Skulltap adds another cheap draw element to the deck, without the drawback of loss of life. With this addition and with all of the other card drawing and tutoring, the fourth Tendrils is not necessary. The Chromatic Sphere just wasn't doing much for me. Another card I have considered in this spot is Senei's Divining Top. I have not yet tested with the Top, but I figured I would shoot out that idea to the masses. Anyway, as it stands, my version is the same as the list above with these changes:

-1 Tendrils
-1 Chromatic Sphere

+2 Skulltap

I am considering running Repeal instead of Chain once Guildpact becomes legal, or at least running it in the Board. Also, I have been considering Massacre as a sideboard slot. It can be good against Gro decks or Angel Control decks.

When I decided to build the deck, sadly, Lotus Petals were extremely tough to find, but were acquired. I still need 2 Bargains, but the first two were only 10 cents each, so I can cough up a couple of bucks to get the others.

My two cents.

[Bane of the Living]

Massacre is the nuts against white splash gobs too. Wipe your board for free?

[on1y0ne]

Okay, so I have worked on this deck a bit more with a couple of friends. We tried adding more blue, but the problem with that was that you end up drawing too many of your mana spells in combination with your blue draw spells and cannot play any of your spells. Thirst for Knowledge sounded like a good idea, but for the above mentioned reason, was not feasable.

I have reduced the number of lands, increased the number of free spells, and added a few things. Here is the list.

Uno

3xPhyrexian Walker
2xOrnithopter
4xShield Sphere
4xLotus Petal
3xMox Diamond
4xChrome Mox
4xCulling the Weak
4xDark Ritual
4xCabal Ritual
4xCruel Bargain
4xInfernal Contract
3xTendrils of Agony
3xMeditate
2xThoughtcast
1xChain of Vapor
3xPlunge Into Darkness
4xUnderground Sea
2xWatery Grave
3xPolluted Delta

So, Plunge (with the Kicker, of course) serves two purposes, if it was not obvious. Adding to your life total is huge in this deck, plus digging deeper is amazing. It is strictly better than Diabolic Intent in this deck due to its versatility.

With all of the artifacts, the addition of Thoughtcast was a no-brainer. Two seems to be the right number. You do not want to draw the too early, because they are useless at 3, 4, or 5 mana, but at 2 mana they are good and at 1 amazing.

With all of the card drawing, three Tendrils is plenty.

Many may disagree with having 3 Mox Diamonds with only having 9 total lands, but for the purposes of this deck, it is more about the storm count, and if you are trying to go off on turn 1 or 2, playing Diamond over a land adds to storm, helps with threshold for Cabal Ritual, and gives you the option to play your land for the turn with a storm count of 12, which is all kinds of Tech.

The need for the removal of annoying things like Meddling Mage or Chalice for 0. Though Chalice for 0 is really annoying, it is still possible to work around it. You still get your storm count with Chalice on the table.

On to the Board. This board is based upon the meta around here.

4xDuress/Cabal Therapy
2xPerish
3xMassacre
3xPithing Needle
3xPhyrexian Furnace

The Duresses/Therapis are there for cherry-picking out Counterspells, Forces, Abeyances, Chants, Stifles, and anything else that could be detrimental to going off. Duress rarely whiffs, like Therapy, but the fact that Therapy Flashes back adding to storm for free, and can get multiple copies of a card makes it so that Therapy may be a better choice, but more testing is required.

Perish/Massacre for the Gro decks which run rampant around here.

Massacre is also good against WW, Dead Guy Ale, and any other random deck packing Plains and creatures. Massacre is in the board over Virtue's Ruin because it can be boarded in against creature decks that are not white, though this was a bit of a debate, and it may change.

Pithing Needle is a slot which I am considering changing. Yes it is good against Aether Vial, Goblins, and other things, but I don't seem to board it in that often.

The Furnaces seem better than Crypt due to the fact that they can be reused, and they are not a dead card in multiples, or if drawn early on.

Other sideboard considerations:

Echoing Truth, Repeal, or Recoil for additional bounce against annoyances in permanant form.

Brain Freeze for an alternate win condition is an idea with which I have been toying.

And of course, Defense Grid is a consideration.

Thoughts?

[Bane of the Living]

Im thinking Furnace is a bad sb card in a deck that wants to win in the first couple turns.

[No_Life_No_Future]

Why no chrome mox? It seems to me that culling the weak is not a good card; The reasoning behind this is it takes 2 cards to make it good, one of which is basically a dead draw. Unfortunatley it is hard to find good mana acceleration because wizards doesnt really like when people get turn 1 kills. Have you tested Doomsday? It would be awesome, especailly if you run top or chromatic sphere.

[Danarim]

So, Plunge (with the Kicker, of course) serves two purposes, if it was not obvious. Adding to your life total is huge in this deck, plus digging deeper is amazing. It is strictly better than Diabolic Intent in this deck due to its versatility.
I'm afraid paining yourself for 4+ is intolerable in a build with 8x Contracts. An impulse with a drawback is not what we need. Playing Plunge for life is also unacceptable, in most cases it would be just 3 life for 1B and two cards! Remember that you need the creatures to feed Culling the Weak. Playing it with entwine is too expensive and stricly worse than just playing the tutor. Diabolic Intent has one simple advantage - it tutors for whatever you need immediatly, it can produce mana, provide an answer, rise the storm amount, draw cards or search the tendrils, and it will do it for sure, while plunging for i.e. chain of vapor is probably not a good plan.


With all of the artifacts, the addition of Thoughtcast was a no-brainer. Two seems to be the right number. You do not want to draw the too early, because they are useless at 3, 4, or 5 mana, but at 2 mana they are good and at 1 amazing.
While it costs 2 mana, it's ok, but so does Night's Whispers, that needs no blue mana. While it costs 3 mana, what will happen very often, it's terribly weak. That said, you probably have too much draw spells in your deck, by the way.


With all of the card drawing, three Tendrils is plenty.
You need to have one turn 2 after casting about ten spells, that's the goal, the probability of having a tendrils (when running three) with that number of spells played isn't high enough. Notice also that in some games you need a second tendrils to win.


3xPhyrexian Furnace
What matchup does it have to improve? It's really not a pressure for nqg.


Why no chrome mox?
It's 1 mana for two cards. Culling the weak is 4 mana for two cards + an additional card in the graveyard. And you're trying to tell me that the first option is better!


It seems to me that culling the weak is not a good card; The reasoning behind this is it takes 2 cards to make it good, one of which is basically a dead draw.
I found culling the weak rather insane, in soo many situations it's better than dark ritual. Ok, we all know that it costs two cards. But it's a part of the strategy - this 'sacrifice' allows you to run a terribly powerful draw engine, that fits the needs created by this card. The walls aren't stricly dead cards, they stops aggro decks for a while, they feeds also Diabolic Intent, they make storm, and additionally, they provide another way of killing your opponent with chain of vapor for big storm + tendrils (when you have no draw cards in hand or you can't use them).


Have you tested Doomsday? It would be awesome, especailly if you run top or chromatic sphere.
The deck can handle no stack that says 'doomsday, I win next turn'. So, it can be only used as a setup card while going off. But in that case, it's too conditional, you need a hand with really great acceleration and a draw4, in other words a hand that not needs doomsday to win.

[on1y0ne]

Okay, so both myself and a friend ran different versions of this deck today. We both tanked. Round 1, I lose to G/U/B Gro, he loses to Goblins. Round 2 I lose to R/W Jitte + Burn, he loses to G/U/R Gro. Round 3, paired against each other. I mulligan to 5 both games and lose the turn before going off one game, and Tendrils for 18 game 2 and lose. I drop, then he loses to the Gro Deck I played Round 1. So this deck went 1-6 on the day with a total of 4 game wins.

I am all for trying a new deck in the tournament environment, since my rating has dropped so much since I was only playing once every few months, though I do test with friends. I think it is time to go back to the drawing board. I am not saying I am going to give up on the deck, but I do believe some changes are in order for this deck to become more viable.

BTW, my friend ran the build with Diabolic Intent, which did not seem to make much of a difference, except in the mirror.

[Danarim]

So this deck went 1-6 on the day with a total of 4 game wins.
That is certainly not a success. First, what were your goldfishing results? If they were as awful as the games you described, the main reasons would be probably problems with your decklist, and maybe mistakes while playing the deck. If they were quite decent, then we should revise the sideboard strategy and put more weight on a matchup analysis.
It's not a surprise encountering burn and gro x3 is bad for the deck. What did the burn match look like? If they burned you before you went off, what can I say, more goldfishing at home ;). If they burned you when you were at 3-4 life while going off, that means zuran orb in the sb is necessary, it were suggested in this thread and worked well for me. I'm also curious what did the goblins to be faster than you? Do you have sideboarded something vs Pyrostatic Pillar game two?

[Rood]

Not a surprise at all Sleigh/Thresh and Gobbos destroyed the deck mainly because Wastelands/Ports own the deck completely. Thresh drops a Meddling Mage turn 2 and you scoop. Sleigh just holds a Fireblast or lightning bolt in hand and burns for win. Defense Grids/more fetch lands and more basic lands would increase the decks playability for the tougher matchups.

[Danarim]

"Wastelands/Ports own the deck completely"
Not the deck we are talking about. It needs one active land/mox diamond and drops the second the turn it wins, if we are talking about matchups when going off as fast as possible is your main task. The problem with goblins isn't wasteland, port or lackey, it's the sideboard pillar, and chain of vapor is the best answer we have found.

[Grollub]

Not a surprise at all Sleigh/Thresh and Gobbos destroyed the deck mainly because Wastelands/Ports own the deck completely. Thresh drops a Meddling Mage turn 2 and you scoop. Sleigh just holds a Fireblast or lightning bolt in hand and burns for win. Defense Grids/more fetch lands and more basic lands would increase the decks playability for the tougher matchups.

Not to be snide or anything, but have you actually played the deck? (more than once)..

Zuran Orb in the side. Ponder, at best it's only about 6 life it'd net you. (I don't think I'd have the balls to wait any longer than third turn to win against burn).. I think Defense Grid would acutally be a better solution.

Hey Danarim, any interesting changes to your latest decklist? I have been bogged down by work lately and haven't had much time to playtest and/or tune. :-/
A question regarding the posted sideboard, 4 Chains total? Wouldn't a mix with a singleton Echoing Ruin be better against Chalice at 1 and such.

[Danarim]

Zuran Orb in the side. Ponder, at best it's only about 6 life it'd net you. (I don't think I'd have the balls to wait any longer than third turn to win against burn).. I think Defense Grid would acutally be a better solution.
The +4 life bonus is exactly what we need in the majority of the situations, and zuran orb gives it for free. I don't think of zuran orb as the artifact in the defense grid slot, I just believe it's better in this one particular matchup and it can be a valuable addition.


Hey Danarim, any interesting changes to your latest decklist? I have been bogged down by work lately and haven't had much time to playtest and/or tune. :-/
I'm in the same situation, unfortunatly. The addition I'm actually considering is brainstorm. Digging for three is good in dead situations, when you desperatly need a draw4, but the main reason for running it is the first turn play - it helps buiding the god hand and is an answer to discard. I think it's important in that bad times, when Pikula's deck is so popular. The question is - is it worth the U cost.


A question regarding the posted sideboard, 4 Chains total? Wouldn't a mix with a singleton Echoing Ruin be better against Chalice at 1 and such.
Probably yes, if you meant Echoing Truth.