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Riehu
04-01-2016, 11:57 AM
Leyline/Helm in my view, is an extremely high-variance way to turn around matchups which we cannot address in any other way with any other tools. Consider the following:

1) having Leyline in the opener without Helm is awkward versus decks where the Leyline itself is not very good since we have no way to find Helm.
2) Helm in an opener without a Leyline is almost as bad as a mulligan since Leyline is nearly uncastable.
3) decks where we would want the combo often side in countermeasures. For instance, you can bet that Lands is bringing in all their Grips versus us since know to expect Needles, Leyline, RiP, Chalice on 2, etc. So they can break the combo even if they don't know anything about Helm.
4) the whole package costs half of our entire sideboard

It's nice that people are managing to win games with it, but really this should be the option of last resort, once we are certain that there is no better plan versus grindy decks that abuse the graveyard. (By the way, I seriously hope people are not trying to play the combo in matchups where Leyline itself has no impact on the game.)

Is there no other way we can think of to help these matchups?

1) Very true.
2) In WB version it can happen (and has happened) but it's awkward I admit.
3) Vs Lands, ANT and Reanimator Leyline itself is very good. It's good vs Shardless and some versions of Delver decks.
4) I have had good experiences with just Leyline in general with earlier versions too.

Leyline I don't doubt, Helms I will see how they do eventually. I have tried a lot of different options and will keep doing so. But so far it has felt good.

Barook
04-01-2016, 12:00 PM
The BW list certainly looks interesting. I'm going to test that next. How have the Revokers been for you so far, Riehu?

Riehu
04-01-2016, 12:04 PM
The BW list certainly looks interesting. I'm going to test that next. How have the Revokers been for you so far, Riehu?

Quite helpful. Drawing in removal at least. 1st turn DRS is quite annoying so it's been nice to have had some answer to that to slow down the opponent. I keep trying those on a regular basis as I still have mixed feelings at times.

Let me know how it goes and please take a note of how you sideboard so we can discuss later.

Riehu
04-01-2016, 12:06 PM
Nice! Any feelings about this versus Disenchant? I like being able to tap out more often, but you do sometimes get screwed by removal on the Seal prior to the equipment/hate piece hitting the battlefield.

Yes that happens sometimes but more times I don't want to keep mana open for Blood Moon etc effects.

Goin Aggro
04-01-2016, 12:37 PM
Technically you can't win until opponent's T2 :tongue:

Opponent drew with grisel though. 100% make that draw kill them.

iostream
04-01-2016, 12:44 PM
1) Very true.
2) In WB version it can happen (and has happened) but it's awkward I admit.
3) Vs Lands, ANT and Reanimator Leyline itself is very good. It's good vs Shardless and some versions of Delver decks.
4) I have had good experiences with just Leyline in general with earlier versions too.

Leyline I don't doubt, Helms I will see how they do eventually. I have tried a lot of different options and will keep doing so. But so far it has felt good.I agree that Leyline's effect is good, but why Leyline rather than RiP in the WB version of this deck? Do you think it's generically better than RiP?

Riehu
04-01-2016, 12:55 PM
I agree that Leyline's effect is good, but why Leyline rather than RiP in the WB version of this deck? Do you think it's generically better than RiP?

RiP would need more white sources and it dies to Abrupt Decay. I tried RiP too but I can't make the mana work as I don't like Mox Diamonds at all.

Barook
04-01-2016, 01:02 PM
I agree that Leyline's effect is good, but why Leyline rather than RiP in the WB version of this deck? Do you think it's generically better than RiP?
I tried RiP/Helm combo yesterday. While RiP is good, but the extra mana (especially white) and being a legit Decay target aren't so hot.


Quite helpful. Drawing in removal at least. 1st turn DRS is quite annoying so it's been nice to have had some answer to that to slow down the opponent. I keep trying those on a regular basis as I still have mixed feelings at times.
That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered other Eldrazi in that slot? Matter Reshaper? Kozilek's Shrieker? Wasteland Strangler? Strangler in particular has cute interactions with Displacer and Leyline of the Void. Just food for thought.

Holly
04-01-2016, 04:57 PM
Good evening everyone,
my schedule is finally freeing up slowly, updated the Primer with Blade-decks & Goblins.
What matchups should I do next?

Also planning on adding some opening hands to discuss, to help newer players with the difficult task whether to mulligan or keep. But have to think through how to properly do it as there are still way to many different decklists..

funkymankevx
04-01-2016, 05:13 PM
I tried RiP/Helm combo yesterday. While RiP is good, but the extra mana (especially white) and being a legit Decay target aren't so hot.

That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered other Eldrazi in that slot? Matter Reshaper? Kozilek's Shrieker? Wasteland Strangler? Strangler in particular has cute interactions with Displacer and Leyline of the Void. Just food for thought.

I don't think Strangler interacts with Displacer since the card comes back to the battlefield before it resolves?

Cire
04-01-2016, 05:19 PM
Regardless, Strangler isn't that good. If you are going to do displacer tricks run containment priest. If you aren't going to run displacer tricks. . . just run displacer. If you are not running displacer - stay mono-colored and run reshaper. Friends don't let friends run strangler.

Barook
04-01-2016, 05:31 PM
I don't think Strangler interacts with Displacer since the card comes back to the battlefield before it resolves?
Nope, that doesn't work, but I wasn't talking about that, either.

Of course Containment Priest is strictly better as far as the creature kill combo goes, but requires more white sources that aren't Eldrazi mana.

Delvis
04-01-2016, 07:32 PM
Strangler is actually quite strong against Shardless, though. Processing an Ancestral Vision to kill a Baleful Strix or Deathrite would be glorious. But I'm not sold.

Riehu
04-01-2016, 08:26 PM
I tried RiP/Helm combo yesterday. While RiP is good, but the extra mana (especially white) and being a legit Decay target aren't so hot.


That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered other Eldrazi in that slot? Matter Reshaper? Kozilek's Shrieker? Wasteland Strangler? Strangler in particular has cute interactions with Displacer and Leyline of the Void. Just food for thought.

Yeah, it's testing period for those, need many more matches and obviously it depends on meta a lot as well. Food for thought is always good. Luckily it's still over two months until Prague to see what Eldrazi is actually made of and which version suits my style the best.

Barook
04-01-2016, 08:48 PM
Strangler is actually quite strong against Shardless, though. Processing an Ancestral Vision to kill a Baleful Strix or Deathrite would be glorious. But I'm not sold.
I've only said Strangler is a potential option, not the best thing since sliced bread. I'm not sold, either, but maybe somebody can proof us otherwise.

As for Shardless, I found 3 copies of All is Dust in your 75 pretty good against them over different versions. Obviously that clashes with the new, hot Leyline/Helm plan. But it's something to keep in mind. Balancing All is Dust with Ratchet Bomb seems like a topic worth discussing.

Different topic:
Has anybody considered Talismans (be it Mirrodin ones or Pristine Talisman for the colorless versions) as SB anti-Blood Moon tech? Lay down one of these things and you're back to functioning normal. It would also give some resistance to mana denial aka Wasteland.
Serum Powder is another consideration for a colorless mana source that also empowers the Leyline plan, although I fear oversideboarding is diluting the main strategy too much.
Unstable Obelisk second ability is probably too expensive to do anything relevant most of the time, judging from my experience with Eye of Ugin.
Guardian Idol would be another Factory-like effect when its mana ability isn't needed.

I'm aware that all those (aside from Obelisk) don't answer stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or equipment. It's just food for thought. I feel the same as Riehu regarding World Breaker, especially as answer to Blood Moon, ever since I moved away from my original build which packed 5 non-land green sources (3 Talisman, 2 Mox). A few temporary sources like Petal make World Breaker alot worse as a BM solution. Thus I'm a bit sceptical that colored cards would be solution to Blood Moon when it cuts you off from most of your colored sources.

Riehu
04-01-2016, 08:58 PM
I've only said Strangler is a potential option, not the best thing since sliced bread. I'm not sold, either, but maybe somebody can proof us otherwise.

As for Shardless, I found 3 copies of All is Dust in your 75 pretty good against them over different versions. Obviously that clashes with the new, hot Leyline/Helm plan. But it's something to keep in mind. Balancing All is Dust with Ratchet Bomb seems like a topic worth discussing.

Different topic:
Has anybody considered Talismans (be it Mirrodin ones or Pristine Talisman for the colorless versions) as SB anti-Blood Moon tech? Lay down one of these things and you're back to functioning normal. It would also give some resistance to mana denial aka Wasteland.
Serum Powder is another consideration for a colorless mana source that also empowers the Leyline plan, although I fear oversideboarding is diluting the main strategy too much.
Unstable Obelisk second ability is probably too expensive to do anything relevant most of the time, judging from my experience with Eye of Ugin.
Guardian Idol would be another Factory-like effect when its mana ability isn't needed.

I'm aware that all those (aside from Obelisk) don't answer stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or equipment. It's just food for thought. I feel the same as Riehu regarding World Breaker, especially as answer to Blood Moon, ever since I moved away from my original build which packed 5 non-land green sources (3 Talisman, 2 Mox). A few temporary sources like Petal make World Breaker alot worse as a BM solution. Thus I'm a bit sceptical that colored cards would be solution to Blood Moon when it cuts you off from most of your colored sources.

Regarding All Is Dust. I have always felt it's too slow and just gets countered. Perhaps the problem has been the amount I have played (2). It seems you have good experiences with that.

I have given thought to talismans but I haven't experienced that much Blood Moon lately that I would feel terrified about it. Also Seals, TKS and Ratchet have helped, though that might be just the lack of testing.

Totenstille
04-02-2016, 05:25 AM
Hi Eldrazi Folks,
I am screwing around for some Time.
Played colorless, splashed Black , red and finally white.
White feels just superior and better equibt to deal with problematic cards like
Tarmogoyf and every Other bog creature that stops us artacking.
My list:

4 cave of koilos
4 Eldrazi temple
4 cavern of souls
4 ancient tombs
3 eye of ugin
1 Buschland
1 Urborg
2 Karakas
1-2 flexslots Testing 2 wasteland/mishra/City of
Traitors

4 mimics
3 endless one
4 tks
4 Reality smasher
3 Eldrazi displaycer
1 Endbringer
2 revoker
2 Containment priest

2 mox diamonds
1 ssg
4 chalice
3 thorns of amethyst
2 jitte
1 dismember

Being unsure about the Number of thorns
Maybe going to switch one more to Sideboard in favour
for one more Land or the 4 the displaycer.

I ein the Last 8/8 competetiv games against
Ur burn, Aggro Loam, Maverick,d&t,Show and Tell at my local store.
Nerd some more help by settle down a Sideboard.
3 Rest und Peace
3 faerie macabre
1 Thorn
2 disenchant
1 needle
1 nullrod
2 Warping wail
1 ulamog 2.0
1 Containment priest

I feel like er loose to fast combo and wasteland locks
Thats why i stack up so much gravehate.
Any suggest?
Sry for my english.
Friendly regards

Barook
04-02-2016, 06:56 PM
Went 4-1 with Riehu's BW Hat list on my first league run with it:

R1: Burn 2-0
R2: Dredge: 2-1 (didn't find a Leyline G2)
R3: Miracles 2-0
R4: Reanimator 1-2 (G3 I started with double Leyline in play, but of course he had one of his two Echoing Truths in his hand alongside Entomb to ruin me. Never lucky. :rolleyes: )
R5: Shardless BUG 2-0 (overran him both games with super-aggressive draws, most noteably with double Smasher G2 despite a mull to 5 due to two unkeepable hands)

Could have easily 5-0'ed if it wasn't for my Reanimator opponent. Revoker didn't really come up so far.

Edit: One interesting tidbit about Helm: In the Reanimator match-up, my opponent attacked me with Tidesprout Tyrant. I helmed him and got Griselbrand. Appearently, even if he bounced the Helm, I would have gotten the creature despite not being able to sac the Helm:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184550

nevilshute
04-03-2016, 05:12 AM
How do you guys regard the matchup vs BUG Food Chain? I play Food Chain and had higher hopes than what have actually come to pass so far. On paper it feels like Food Chain should be fairly decent vs Eldrazi as we have main deck answers to your lock pieces, isn't that soft to chalice to begin with, have a combo that is largely creature based and hard for you to interact with and lots of decent chump blockers in strix and agent to get us through the early pressure.

I know it's something of a marginal deck so I don't actually know how many of you have experience facing it, well, except Riehu who has kicked my butt on a few occasions :wink:

metronome2charisma
04-03-2016, 07:19 AM
How do you guys regard the matchup vs BUG Food Chain? I play Food Chain and had higher hopes than what have actually come to pass so far. On paper it feels like Food Chain should be fairly decent vs Eldrazi as we have main deck answers to your lock pieces, isn't that soft to chalice to begin with, have a combo that is largely creature based and hard for you to interact with and lots of decent chump blockers in strix and agent to get us through the early pressure.

I know it's something of a marginal deck so I don't actually know how many of you have experience facing it, well, except Riehu who has kicked my butt on a few occasions :wink:

You said it all brother. Food chain is a bug deck that is less weak to chalice and has a combo kill in a deck we're soft to already. i don't have a ton pf experience playing against it with eldrazi but i have some and your notes are the same as mine.

Dice_Box
04-03-2016, 07:23 AM
Food chain stops being a combo deck with a Thorn in play. While they can still do some tricky things, like block and Sac to stop Jitte, they can not combo off.

Quasim0ff
04-03-2016, 07:30 AM
Food chain stops being a combo deck with a Thorn in play. While they can still do some tricky things, like block and Sac to stop Jitte, they can not combo off.

How does Food Chain stop being a combo deck, with a thorn in play? Thorn makes non-creature spells cost one more.

Dice_Box
04-03-2016, 07:37 AM
How does Food Chain stop being a combo deck, with a thorn in play? Thorn makes non-creature spells cost one more.
Because I said Thorn when I ment to say Sphere. My apologies.

nevilshute
04-03-2016, 09:13 AM
Because I said Thorn when I ment to say Sphere. My apologies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sphere seems like the tertiary lock piece after Chalice and Thorn and I've honestly not run into many Spheres out of Eldrazi (a couple, but not many). Also, like I alluded to, the lock pieces aren't that much of an issue since I have 4x Decay + not that many critical spells that are hit by chalice and thorn. Sphere hits everything but yeah, seems much less played.

No, when I lose to Eldrazi it has been more an issue of their creatures / jitte being of a higher power level than mine. There has been close games where they top decked a smasher at the right time where I just needed 1 or 2 more turns but yeah. Smasher and Knot seem super strong vs most of what I've got going on. I'm contemplating going from 1 to 2 main deck Anglers as a consequence.

Dice_Box
04-03-2016, 09:45 AM
They are sideboard lock cards yes. You bring them in for Combo, where the cost is less of an issue for you but a disaster for the opponent.

Also yes, you want pressure too, of course. It is a Stompy deck after all.

caprino
04-03-2016, 11:32 AM
Went 4-1 with Riehu's BW Hat list on my first league run with it:

R1: Burn 2-0
R2: Dredge: 2-1 (didn't find a Leyline G2)
R3: Miracles 2-0
R4: Reanimator 1-2 (G3 I started with double Leyline in play, but of course he had one of his two Echoing Truths in his hand alongside Entomb to ruin me. Never lucky. :rolleyes: )
R5: Shardless BUG 2-0 (overran him both games with super-aggressive draws, most noteably with double Smasher G2 despite a mull to 5 due to two unkeepable hands)

Could have easily 5-0'ed if it wasn't for my Reanimator opponent. Revoker didn't really come up so far.

Edit: One interesting tidbit about Helm: In the Reanimator match-up, my opponent attacked me with Tidesprout Tyrant. I helmed him and got Griselbrand. Appearently, even if he bounced the Helm, I would have gotten the creature despite not being able to sac the Helm:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184550

hello, what would be the list that you played? thank you

Barook
04-03-2016, 11:39 AM
hello, what would be the list that you played? thank you
This list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/395155#online)

caprino
04-03-2016, 11:50 AM
This list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/395155#online)

nice list...side out and side in vs miracle, bugs, infect, sneak attack, omnitell, rug, elf, d & d, mud, and, mirror, against top tier? thank you

RhoxWarMonk
04-03-2016, 02:29 PM
Went 4-1 with Riehu's BW Hat list on my first league run with it:

R1: Burn 2-0
R2: Dredge: 2-1 (didn't find a Leyline G2)
R3: Miracles 2-0
R4: Reanimator 1-2 (G3 I started with double Leyline in play, but of course he had one of his two Echoing Truths in his hand alongside Entomb to ruin me. Never lucky. :rolleyes: )
R5: Shardless BUG 2-0 (overran him both games with super-aggressive draws, most noteably with double Smasher G2 despite a mull to 5 due to two unkeepable hands)

Could have easily 5-0'ed if it wasn't for my Reanimator opponent. Revoker didn't really come up so far.

Edit: One interesting tidbit about Helm: In the Reanimator match-up, my opponent attacked me with Tidesprout Tyrant. I helmed him and got Griselbrand. Appearently, even if he bounced the Helm, I would have gotten the creature despite not being able to sac the Helm:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184550

I don't know why but I haven't had much luck with Revoker at all. On paper, I SHOULD really like it but it's yet to make an impact in my testing -- ended up cutting it in my most recent version.

Speaking of, trying the white splash but still having better luck with the colorless version so far. Displacer is a neat card for sure but a lot of times I find I just want to overrun them and not needing the blink ability so far (yet) but I haven't played against Lands or other matchups where Displacer has been really relevant.

Question for you guys, do you think Lotus Petal is still needed if I'm not running anything besides Displacer? I've been testing it with only 10 sources (4 painlands, 4 cavern, 2 Karakas) and so far, I haven't had any trouble casting them. Am I just getting lucky? Am I too greedy? I know ChannelFireballs' article mentioned 13 sources to cast on turn 2 but I dont' usually NEED to cast it that early either. Note, there's no Toxic Deluge currently in my deck and no RiP or Containment Priests, so those 10 sources are pure sources as all of them can be used to cast Displacer. I'd really want to leave out the petals to give me more gas but I am likely losing some consistency by playing it this way as well. If I can't get the splash to work well, I'm likely going to go back to the colorless version with the Helm/LotV combo in the board. From my experience, a lot of my "answers" to things like Blood moon require colored mana for me to cast it and that simply isn't going to help me if it's already on the table. I'd rather just board in the combo against prison or blood moon decks and go for the alternate kill, rather than trying to play some level of basics/mox diamonds/lotus petals, etc on the off chance I'll be able to get a seal/disenchant type effect out.

EDIT: I also am starting to dislike Wasteland here -- dead card against a lot of decks and even decks it is useful against, I feel I'm usually better off casting a threat than I am stripping their land away. Is anyone else finding this to be the case as well?

Barook
04-03-2016, 04:06 PM
I don't know why but I haven't had much luck with Revoker at all. On paper, I SHOULD really like it but it's yet to make an impact in my testing -- ended up cutting it in my most recent version.

Speaking of, trying the white splash but still having better luck with the colorless version so far. Displacer is a neat card for sure but a lot of times I find I just want to overrun them and not needing the blink ability so far (yet) but I haven't played against Lands or other matchups where Displacer has been really relevant.

Question for you guys, do you think Lotus Petal is still needed if I'm not running anything besides Displacer? I've been testing it with only 10 sources (4 painlands, 4 cavern, 2 Karakas) and so far, I haven't had any trouble casting them. Am I just getting lucky? Am I too greedy? I know ChannelFireballs' article mentioned 13 sources to cast on turn 2 but I dont' usually NEED to cast it that early either. Note, there's no Toxic Deluge currently in my deck and no RiP or Containment Priests, so those 10 sources are pure sources as all of them can be used to cast Displacer. I'd really want to leave out the petals to give me more gas but I am likely losing some consistency by playing it this way as well. If I can't get the splash to work well, I'm likely going to go back to the colorless version with the Helm/LotV combo in the board. From my experience, a lot of my "answers" to things like Blood moon require colored mana for me to cast it and that simply isn't going to help me if it's already on the table. I'd rather just board in the combo against prison or blood moon decks and go for the alternate kill, rather than trying to play some level of basics/mox diamonds/lotus petals, etc on the off chance I'll be able to get a seal/disenchant type effect out.

EDIT: I also am starting to dislike Wasteland here -- dead card against a lot of decks and even decks it is useful against, I feel I'm usually better off casting a threat than I am stripping their land away. Is anyone else finding this to be the case as well?
Second league run with Riehu's list, 1-2 after 3 rounds so far (lost R1 & R2 vs Goblins and Grixis Delver, my draws were bad while their's were pretty good - it happens; R3 was won vs. Esperblade).

I was about to post my dissatisfaction with Revoker, too. After the end of the league run, it's a clear cut for me. What I actually liked was Toxic Deluge. I might actually up the count of Toxic Deluges in the MD to 2 copies (and a 3rd in the board) and run a 4th Lotus Petal (which acts as an additional colored source). With the additional accelerant, I might cut a City of Traitors for a 2nd MD Karakas (I really missed it vs Reanimator and colored mana sometimes comes up for Displacer).

I'm not sold on the Leyline/Helm plan yet. It is barely acceptable against GY decks and horribly inconsistent vs anything else, aside from eating a massive amounts of slots when bringing it in. If you don't have Leyline in your opening hand, you're boned. If you draw Helm without Leyline in play, same problem. I would rather have cards that actually do what they should instead of drawing a bunch of dead cards while hoping for Magical Christmasland. I would prefer to go back to my Blade plan, but first I need to figure out how to not get rekt by Shardless BUG again if I want to do that.

I agree with you that colored cards to deal with Blood Moon isn't ideal. Hence my food for thought regarding colorless mana sources with utility in the SB.

I also agree on Wasteland. I prefer Factory, which is good in both offense and defense. Sadly, the BW version currently has no space for it (which makes me extra sad due to built-in synergy with Deluge).

Thereisnocomp2
04-03-2016, 04:49 PM
Barook-- Your recent findings regarding both Deluge and Revoker in the BW version are similar to my findings. I have been trying to find space for a lotus petal to add to my Moxen, as the colored splash time and time again feels to me like the better experience.

It certainly should be at least mentioned that in Paper, less Karakas/Mox heavy versions are to being seen strictly due to card availability, but the world at large is certainly prepared for colorless Eldrazi Stompy by now.

As for Blood Moon, i have found in my three REL matches thus far it is less of an issue when you have a heavier Warping Wail count and Mox Diamond, as you end up being able to deploy the necessary threat to complete the beats past the Moon itself. Making a Scion has won me MORE than one match in competitive play.

RhoxWarMonk
04-03-2016, 05:10 PM
Second league run with Riehu's list, 1-2 after 3 rounds so far (lost R1 & R2 vs Goblins and Grixis Delver, my draws were bad while their's were pretty good - it happens; R3 was won vs. Esperblade).

I was about to post my dissatisfaction with Revoker, too. After the end of the league run, it's a clear cut for me. What I actually liked was Toxic Deluge. I might actually up the count of Toxic Deluges in the MD to 2 copies (and a 3rd in the board) and run a 4th Lotus Petal (which acts as an additional colored source). With the additional accelerant, I might cut a City of Traitors for a 2nd MD Karakas (I really missed it vs Reanimator and colored mana sometimes comes up for Displacer).

I'm not sold on the Leyline/Helm plan yet. It is barely acceptable against GY decks and horribly inconsistent vs anything else, aside from eating a massive amounts of slots when bringing it in. If you don't have Leyline in your opening hand, you're boned. If you draw Helm without Leyline in play, same problem. I would rather have cards that actually do what they should instead of drawing a bunch of dead cards while hoping for Magical Christmasland. I would prefer to go back to my Blade plan, but first I need to figure out how to not get rekt by Shardless BUG again if I want to do that.

I agree with you that colored cards to deal with Blood Moon isn't ideal. Hence my food for thought regarding colorless mana sources with utility in the SB.

I also agree on Wasteland. I prefer Factory, which is good in both offense and defense. Sadly, the BW version currently has no space for it (which makes me extra sad due to built-in synergy with Deluge).

Are you finding it tough to cast Deluge just off the Caves and Petals? That was my biggest reason for not including that card right now, I didn't want to dedicated extra slots just to cast one card, that would still feel inconsistent (7 sources just doesn't feel like enough to me).

As for Factories vs Wastelands, I think for the next colorless version run, I'm going to try this as my mana base:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factories

This seems like a better approach to me than the Wasteland route -- I've just not been impressed with them, I think the Factories might be better but I'll have to playtest and see.

Lastly, keep us posted on how you are finding the helm/LotV interactions -- LotV is likely not a bad card to test even without the helm in the WB version, it seems more consistent against GY decks than the Fairies or Crypts but I'm not sure.

Barook
04-03-2016, 06:10 PM
The right amount of black sources for Deluge needs some serious theorycrafting. I'll probably do it later this week. I can't really say how hard it's to cast since it depends alot on the turn you want to cast it, which can only be figured with playtesting. Any input on that is welcome.

It certainly has unusual applications like this (http://i.imgur.com/fhzRsjz.jpg) where I have been finally able to kill Jace which has been wailing on me alongside Nahiri for a couple of turns at that point. I won that game a bit later. Noteworthy was that I drew 2 Revokers the following turns, completely dead due to Chalice. :rolleyes:
G3 was similiar weird: He's on the play, casts a T2 SFM for Batterskull. I play a T2 TKS, but it gets Force'd. T3 I play Reality Smasher as a roadblock, but it eats a StP, plus he puts Batterskull into play. I eat a swing for 5 before before I Deluge (http://imgur.com/P6YNYxo). He couldn't recover in time from that and lost a bit later.

Deluge might actually be the sweeper we've been looking for. But it's a bit too early to hype it up yet.

RhoxWarMonk
04-03-2016, 07:25 PM
The right amount of black sources for Deluge needs some serious theorycrafting. I'll probably do it later this week. I can't really say how hard it's to cast since it depends alot on the turn you want to cast it, which can only be figured with playtesting. Any input on that is welcome.

It certainly has unusual applications like this (http://i.imgur.com/fhzRsjz.jpg) where I have been finally able to kill Jace which has been wailing on me alongside Nahiri for a couple of turns at that point. I won that game a bit later. Noteworthy was that I drew 2 Revokers the following turns, completely dead due to Chalice. :rolleyes:
G3 was similiar weird: He's on the play, casts a T2 SFM for Batterskull. I play a T2 TKS, but it gets Force'd. T3 I play Reality Smasher as a roadblock, but it eats a StP, plus he puts Batterskull into play. I eat a swing for 5 before before I Deluge (http://imgur.com/P6YNYxo). He couldn't recover in time from that and lost a bit later.

Deluge might actually be the sweeper we've been looking for. But it's a bit too early to hype it up yet.

I can see running 2x Urborg to go with the Caves and 4x Lotus Petals to consistently cast Deluge, if it's indeed that powerful. I would think you'd need at least that with 2 MD Deluge and 1 more in the SB. The problem is, then you're basically cutting all your City of Traitors, so I wonder if it's worth losing that explosiveness? Certainly merits some testing, it absolutely seems to be a stellar card with all our big stompy creatures able to survive and generally wipe your opponents board in the process.

On another topic, which lock pieces are people using these days? I was using a 2/2 Trinisphere and Thorns split on the colorless version but I've since dropped the Trinispheres. I'm also considering dropping the Thorns as well, especially in the WB version as they're incredibly awkward with Lotus Petals.

Barook
04-03-2016, 08:10 PM
I can see running 2x Urborg to go with the Caves and 4x Lotus Petals to consistently cast Deluge, if it's indeed that powerful. I would think you'd need at least that with 2 MD Deluge and 1 more in the SB. The problem is, then you're basically cutting all your City of Traitors, so I wonder if it's worth losing that explosiveness? Certainly merits some testing, it absolutely seems to be a stellar card with all our big stompy creatures able to survive and generally wipe your opponents board in the process.

On another topic, which lock pieces are people using these days? I was using a 2/2 Trinisphere and Thorns split on the colorless version but I've since dropped the Trinispheres. I'm also considering dropping the Thorns as well, especially in the WB version as they're incredibly awkward with Lotus Petals.
I can't really say that I miss the Thorns so far, but 8 matches aren't enough to tell.

As for the BW manabase, the current one looks like this:
"Core"
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin

"Flex slots"
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas

I think going down to 2 Cities is definitely save, especially with an additional Petal. 1 City might still be doable (I'm not completely dropping it), but it might hurt the opening speed a bit. A 2/2 split between Eye and City is also possible, even though you would be less often able to have broken openings. Of course you could go up to 25 lands, but with 4 Lotus Petals and zero manlands, this seems kinda excessive.
I would definitely up the MD Karakas count to 2. As for the additional black source, I'm torn between Urborg #2 (I enjoy painless tapping of my Tombs and not dismembering my life total) and Scrubland. The dual would further increase the white count and wouldn't suffer from the Legendary drawback, but you would also get to enjoy the advantages of Urborg less often. It's a tough call.

iostream
04-03-2016, 09:47 PM
Good evening everyone,
my schedule is finally freeing up slowly, updated the Primer with Blade-decks & Goblins.
What matchups should I do next?

Also planning on adding some opening hands to discuss, to help newer players with the difficult task whether to mulligan or keep. But have to think through how to properly do it as there are still way to many different decklists..
I think it would be nice to have information about the 4-color Loam matchup and various flavors of Nic Fit.

Thereisnocomp2
04-03-2016, 09:54 PM
I can't really say that I miss the Thorns so far, but 8 matches aren't enough to tell.

As for the BW manabase, the current one looks like this:
"Core"
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin

"Flex slots"
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas

I think going down to 2 Cities is definitely save, especially with an additional Petal. 1 City might still be doable (I'm not completely dropping it), but it might hurt the opening speed a bit. A 2/2 split between Eye and City is also possible, even though you would be less often able to have broken openings. Of course you could go up to 25 lands, but with 4 Lotus Petals and zero manlands, this seems kinda excessive.
I would definitely up the MD Karakas count to 2. As for the additional black source, I'm torn between Urborg #2 (I enjoy painless tapping of my Tombs and not dismembering my life total) and Scrubland. The dual would further increase the white count and wouldn't suffer from the Legendary drawback, but you would also get to enjoy the advantages of Urborg less often. It's a tough call.

I do not find any of those slots aside from the Urborg to be flex, and it certainly is not flex in the versions i run now with 2 Deluge main. Urborg, Caves and 3 Mox Diamond makes for the absolute bare minimum of black sources and as i mentioned previously, i am going to find room for a Lotus Petal to make it 9.

As for adding a Lotus Petal to be able to cast Toxic Deluge. The card is the truth in Displacer/NonRevoker variants. I swear it.

metronome2charisma
04-03-2016, 11:42 PM
I do not find any of those slots aside from the Urborg to be flex, and it certainly is not flex in the versions i run now with 2 Deluge main. Urborg, Caves and 3 Mox Diamond makes for the absolute bare minimum of black sources and as i mentioned previously, i am going to find room for a Lotus Petal to make it 9.

As for adding a Lotus Petal to be able to cast Toxic Deluge. The card is the truth in Displacer/NonRevoker variants. I swear it.

Yeah, it seems to be the consensus that toxic deluge is pretty great. Not really feeling containment priest main anymore and i think i'm gunna go down to 4 chalice and drop 3ball and thorn from the main entirely .

Riehu
04-04-2016, 02:00 AM
As there are many new posts about different options I’ll just write my comments / findings in one post.

About main deck:

I have removed Revoker for now as well. While it’s quite good in few match ups it’s bad in most and not something that you want to top deck almost ever. Instead I put back in 2 Phyrexian Metamorphs to kinda increase the amount of TKS / Smasher as well as to be able to copy Tarmogoyfs and equipment with an off chance to copy Emrakul from Show and Tell. I’ve been running them every now and then putting them back more often than not.

Barook - interesting idea to up Toxic Deluge to 2 in the MD. Glad you find it good. I might give it a try as well. Also I would like to see your theorization about the amount of black sources. Maybe I’ve been running bad for last two leagues but I always seem to draw too many cities so will try 2 in the next version adding up another Urborg keeping Petals at 3.

So the mana would be:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
3 Lotus Petal



About sideboard:

Yes, Helm was nice for the first few days / week and now everyone is prepared for it. It also feels clunky more often than not so I have removed it as well. Maybe putting it back after a month or two.

Leylines I still like as they are pretty much auto win against the occasional graveyard strategies / Dredge and also very helpful vs lands. I have sided it in vs Shardless and RUG Delver too though I won’t actively mulligan to it which makes it slightly worse.

Totenstille
04-04-2016, 03:09 AM
Good Morning

I dont see toxic Deluge to ne a good md Card.
It kills displaycer, mimics and sometimes tks , endlessone.
And it wont kill goyfs or angler without wiping our Board.
And the life loss can ne relevant too. The upside of that Card is against pyromancer
, strix and Death and taxes and against infect. But dont Know if we need it md.

I agree revoker feels not Strong enough to be maindeck.
I am curious about Containment priest in the md on paper it looks
Strong with displaycer but most of the Time displaycer alone Would solve the problem alone.
And this could lead to more space for real threats like endbringer or bearer of Silence.
I Tested yesterday against jund, infect and esperblade and infect feels nearly unbeatable
Except with chalice on 1.
jund is pretty hard like every goyf / lilly deck.
Rip was a bomb here.
Esperblade was more or less an autowin after displaycer hits the board.

Some advices?
Friendly regards

Riehu
04-04-2016, 05:12 AM
Good Morning

I dont see toxic Deluge to ne a good md Card.
It kills displaycer, mimics and sometimes tks , endlessone.
And it wont kill goyfs or angler without wiping our Board.
And the life loss can ne relevant too. The upside of that Card is against pyromancer
, strix and Death and taxes and against infect. But dont Know if we need it md.

I agree revoker feels not Strong enough to be maindeck.
I am curious about Containment priest in the md on paper it looks
Strong with displaycer but most of the Time displaycer alone Would solve the problem alone.
And this could lead to more space for real threats like endbringer or bearer of Silence.
I Tested yesterday against jund, infect and esperblade and infect feels nearly unbeatable
Except with chalice on 1.
jund is pretty hard like every goyf / lilly deck.
Rip was a bomb here.
Esperblade was more or less an autowin after displaycer hits the board.

Some advices?
Friendly regards


My thoughts.

Toxic Deluge does kill those sometimes, though rarely. The other times it's been worth having in the MD, at least so far. I'm intrigued about Barook's test of two in the MD. Revoker is out of the deck for the time being.

I tried Priest, but it was quite clunky and requires much heavier white.

Infect game one is usually in their favor, but not too much with BW version. Not sure even if it was actually 50:50, surely depends on who goes first.

Riehu
04-04-2016, 06:42 AM
I think it would be nice to have information about the 4-color Loam matchup and various flavors of Nic Fit.

Haven't played that much vs 4c loam but I'd imagine Leyline is good here. Nic Fit is very tough without chalice on 1 early game, even then they can remove it obviously but super important anyway. I would mulligan average hands to six to try to get chalice or even warping wail.

josch6083
04-04-2016, 06:45 AM
I thought over and over again about being able to clear the board if I´m behind. I love All is dust but often I just hadn´t have the mana. So I decided to go another way. My solution to a lot of problems is Nevinnyrals Disc. It´s easy to cast and I got 21 creatures + 3 Mishras Factories. So after cleaning the board it shouldn´t be a problem to get pressure on the board. And it slows the opponent down beacause he doesn’t want to put everything on the board he got. And you get time to find the cards you need.
I had very good experiences against various decks with this list. It´s great against elves, maverick, grixis, any goyf deck, DnT. And of course in the mirror match it can be backbreaking for your opponent. And in addition its an MD answer to bloodmoon, moat …
Imagine the face of your opponent flooded the board wirth creatures an then sees MD Disc. I saw it and it´s sweet.:cool:
You could say that you harm your own deck. But I´d rather destroy every creature on the board than loosing to an flipped delver and/or a 5/6 goyf.

This is my current list:

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Nevinnyrals Disc
2 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory


Feedback appreciated. Thanks

Barook
04-04-2016, 08:08 AM
Funnily enough, I thought about Nevinnyrals Disc as well today while driving to work. Might be cool, but I'm sceptical about blowing up my whole board, including lockpieces and my creatures. It also doesn't hit Planeswalkers. Make sure to test it more.

@Riehu: Infect can only catch you off-guard if you don't know that you play against it or when they have broken auto-pilot hands with free counter back-up. Displacer and Jitte are both cards that makes them your bitch. Maybe the Thorn version better against it, but I remember it as quite positive match-up.

I liked running 2 Cities with my Blade list. I'll do some analysis about regarding the balance between Cities/Eyes, chances of dead draws with Cities/Legendary lands and chances to go broken with Eye/Mimic/Endless One on T1 later on. Don't expect any fancy mathematics, just some graphs from MWS. Should still be enough to stir the discussion in the right direction once we have the data.

Riehu
04-04-2016, 08:33 AM
Funnily enough, I thought about Nevinnyrals Disc as well today while driving to work. Might be cool, but I'm sceptical about blowing up my whole board, including lockpieces and my creatures. It also doesn't hit Planeswalkers. Make sure to test it more.

@Riehu: Infect can only catch you off-guard if you don't know that you play against it or when they have broken auto-pilot hands with free counter back-up. Displacer and Jitte are both cards that makes them your bitch. Maybe the Thorn version better against it, but I remember it as quite positive match-up.

I liked running 2 Cities with my Blade list. I'll do some analysis about regarding the balance between Cities/Eyes, chances of dead draws with Cities/Legendary lands and chances to go broken with Eye/Mimic/Endless One on T1 later on. Don't expect any fancy mathematics, just some graphs from MWS. Should still be enough to stir the discussion in the right direction once we have the data.

Yeah I'm 6-2 vs Infect so far.

Looking forward to your analysis.

Julian23
04-04-2016, 08:34 AM
Checked the last couple of pages and haven't seen anyone post the TMT lists from Turin yet. For anyone who doesn't know, it was a large tournmanet in Turin at the end of March. Top8 split for 2.200,- € each. Had Jean-Mary Accart ("John Mario Kart") and a couple other Eldrazis in it:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35160

keys
04-04-2016, 08:40 AM
Checked the last couple of pages and haven't seen anyone post the TMT lists from Turin yet. For anyone who doesn't know, it was a large tournmanet in Turin at the end of March. Top8 split for 2.200,- € each. Had Jean-Mary Accart ("John Mario Kart") and a couple other Eldrazis in it:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35160

These were posted already, including a discussion of the missing 4 cards in Jean's list which we think were Mimics, not Thorns.

Thereisnocomp2
04-04-2016, 09:02 AM
Yeah interesting idea about 2 MB Deluge, Barook-- real original. -_-

Metronome- i too am considering cutting the Priests to the board, but i feel like the deck needs to have 1-2 Endbringer when you shave on Priests for the Show matchup specifically, or has to get back to 4 Warping Wails in the main. I do want to try the Priests in board, and was considering readding my Phyrexian Metamorphs from the original version back into the deck.

After testing maindeck Swords, it is not the way to go. You just want Jitte, not Skull or SoFaF.

Riehu
04-04-2016, 09:48 AM
Shardless is still pain I have to admit. Now I'm trying Unburial Rites to combat their discard and creature battles and Perish to combat their creatures. No experience yet as I have only played one match and did not draw Rites. (Did not have Perish then)

Edit. Obviously it has other uses as well, mainly Elves.

metronome2charisma
04-04-2016, 10:41 AM
Yeah interesting idea about 2 MB Deluge, Barook-- real original. -_-

Metronome- i too am considering cutting the Priests to the board, but i feel like the deck needs to have 1-2 Endbringer when you shave on Priests for the Show matchup specifically, or has to get back to 4 Warping Wails in the main. I do want to try the Priests in board, and was considering readding my Phyrexian Metamorphs from the original version back into the deck.

After testing maindeck Swords, it is not the way to go. You just want jitte, not Skull or SoFaF.

I think 2 jitte in the 75 seem rite. i am also liking phyrexian metamorph more and more for the reasons posted above, thinking about going up to 2 md . and i've always loved end bringer so including him is already a given. Also i like the leylines better than rip so i'm gunna be switching to the leylines in the board here directly .
Revoker has been good,not great .I feel like i need him in my build just because i'm only running 4 chalice and 1 trinisphere as lock pieces atm,which i'm going down to just 4 chalice in my next build so i'll be keeping him in as a 2 of for the time being, he's really good with displacer but kinda slow.
I'm not running deluge just because i haven't got the card and i'm waiting on caves( good thing i bought those foil brush lands) but its definitely a thing i'm considering after you said it was a house for you a couple weeks ago.
4 Warping wail is a lot i've been at 2 main 1 in the board and have loved it.

Barook
04-04-2016, 06:59 PM
@Thereisnocomp2: There's no reason to be salty. :really:

Finished my BW League run 3-2 after beating R4 Burn and R5 Miracles. Before I enter another league, I want discuss mana base choices first.

Note that these are rounded percentages and it doesn't take mulligans into account, so it's just an rough estimate. T0 means your starting 7, T1 8 cards (on the draw or actual T2 on the play). I'll just leave the data up uncommented first since I don't the time to go in-depth right now. We'll need to discuss what turn should be our cutting point.

1) how to balance specific legendary lands (I count City as "legendary" land since you rarely want to draw a second copy):

Chance to draw a specific "legendary" land (Karakas, Eye, City, Urborg) with 3 copies in the deck: Draw 1x vs Draw 2x (http://imgur.com/a/B1bXW)

Chance to draw a specific "legendary" land (Karakas, Eye, City, Urborg) with 2 copies in the deck: Draw 1x vs Draw 2x (http://imgur.com/a/TN70h)

Chance to draw a specific "legendary" land (Karakas, Eye, City, Urborg) with 1 copy in the deck: Draw 1x (http://imgur.com/tPdB2g6)

2) Chance to draw at least one Urborg in combination with Eye:

Eye/Urborg split: 2/1 vs 2/2 vs 3/1 vs 3/2 (http://imgur.com/a/LWOjW)

3) Chance to draw at least one land that benefits from Urborg (Eye or Ancient Tomb):

2x Urborg: 6 lands (4 Tombs/2 Eyes) vs 7 lands (4 Tombs/3 Eyes) (http://imgur.com/a/YVhx1)

1x Urborg: 6 lands (4 Tombs/2 Eyes) vs 7 lands (4 Tombs/3 Eyes) (http://imgur.com/a/vX5Lv)

4) Chance to "go broken" with Eye (at least two 2-power drops - Mimic or Endless One - on your T1):

3 Eyes vs 2 Eyes (http://imgur.com/a/VZRQj)

5) Chance to a certain source of mana. Since the current BW list has 19 colorless sources, I'll use that as starting point and go down from there up to 4 sources.

Chances from 4-19 mana sources of a specific color per turn (http://imgur.com/a/S0wWM)

Especially 5) should make it easier to determine the "right" amount of color based on the turn you want to play said cards. Note that the numbers slightly differ from the CFB mana article due to mulligan decisions not taken into account, but those numbers should be good enough.

If you want anything else modelled, either let me know or do it yourself in Magic Workstation --> Statistics --> Deep Analysis

Happy discussion!

darkgh0st
04-05-2016, 01:16 AM
I really like the Displacer from the white version, but I still prefer having Wastelands in. GU 12-post is a bad match up for non-Wasteland versions, though it is a deck that is not normally seen.

MD.Ghost
04-05-2016, 05:44 AM
@Barook: Nice Work!

------

I still tinker with different builds, since the meta adapts and Eldrazi should follow it to survive the upcoming Midrange Wars (we already see brews with Leyline+Helm, or the cut of Thorns for Maindeck Removal etc.).

Currently i switch between a Devoid.build and the proven gW.build:

"Eldrazi Devoid Pile":

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
3x Corrupted Crossroads
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Karakas
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creature (21)
2x Bearer of Silence
3x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
3x Endless One
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
1x World Breaker

Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Lotus Petal
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (6)
3x Dismember
3x Warping Wail

Sideboard (15)
2x All Is Dust
2x Bojuka Bog
1x Duplicant
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Wastes

Lands/Mana: Since i tested Devoid, i chosed Corrupted Crossroads over Mishra. Wastelands is a Trap here because you will need Mana for Bearer, Breaker, Displacer and Side All is Dust and i like the inclusion of Karakas + Urborg. I support the Landsbase with 2 Petals, because they performed well in my gW build. Creatures i still test Bearer of Silence, i finally got a manabase that can support it well enough. If it works you get an (sometimes) uncounterable Removal (which can also eat Knights, TNN etc.) on a Stick which (thanks to flying) loves to carry a Jitte. The single World Breaker will ensure that this build will not lose to annoying Maindeck Bridge/Moat and is usefull vs Equipment or even a Strix. Removal - this build is heavily armed with 3 Dismember, 3 Wail, 2 Jitte, 2 Bearer and 3 Displacer which means that theoretical you can fight a lot of different creatures. Combo without MD Thorn can still be ok, the build still comes with Chalice, TKS and Wail - vs Reanimate/Sneak&Show you also have Karakas, Displacer, Bearer as potential answers. Sideboard is colorless, but the build can be morphed to WB colors if you cut 3 Crossroads and 1 Eye/City for 4 Caves of Koilos and maybe 1-2 Slots at Side for Plains/Karakas if you also want to cast RiP.

----------
Speaking of White - this is my latest gW.list that worked well for me:

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Brushland
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
2x Karakas
3x Mishra's Factory

Creature (21)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x World Breaker

Artifact (11)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Lotus Petal
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (3)
3x Dismember

Sideboard (15)
2x All Is Dust
2x Plains
2x Containment Priest
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Lands/Mana Mishra is very solid here. Petals+Guides acts as a boost and color fix. I like that Guides can trap your opponent with untapped Factory and this build can hardcast the Guide if needed. Creatures: Metamorph synergies well with Thorn/Mishra/Displacer and Equipment/Stoneforge. As Barook and others already mentioned, a white based build comes with various good Sideboard stuff: I really like Thalia, because it dodges Combo-Answers like Recall/K.Grip. I am unsure about the Sword-config. I can also see Sword of Body and Mind (you don't need protection "Black" often and UG works vs all the Shardless Stuff including TNN) since it will produce more blockers/attackers/carrier. If you cover UG protection this way, i can also see Barooks idea with Sword of War and Peace vs Miracle (Mentor), DnT and Burn. If you don't like Thorn (thanks to more midrange decks) you can also try 3 Warping Wail as a compromise between Removal and Combo-Protection.

----------
@Nevinnyrals Disc: I like the idea for colorless builds, especially if you profit with Reshaper which leads to the question if Oblivion Stone is stronger in this case. Sure it don't dodges Decay and will need 5 Mana to wipe the field but it can enter the Field after a Reshaper Trigger, can save your own permanents if you have mana and your opponent tends to hold back cards and it will also kill Planeswalker. Afterall i think both artifacts need Reshaper + Mishra to ensure you profit from the Wipe.

Barook
04-05-2016, 06:37 AM
Looking closer at my numbers, I'll try out this manabase, as it seems like the most reasonable combination of speed, consistency and utility, given the numbers:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas
4 Lotus Petal

Now all what I have to do is building a sideboard that does its job vs Shardless while being good vs other decks as well. From my experience, Matter Reshaper, Mishra's Factory and All is Dust are all cards that performed well vs Shardless. The best way to win is to overrun them before they can get their CA engine going and grow their Goyfs beyond our reach. Reshaper and Factory aren't really options for the BW build, but I could see 2-3 All is Dust doing well. I'm unsure if I rather want to run RiP or Leyline as GY hate of choice. How Toxic Deluge performs vs Shardless isn't entirely clear, either.

So far, my new board looks like this:
1 Karakas
3-4 RiP/Leyline
2-3 All is Dust (heavily leaning towards 3 copies since that worked best for me)
1 Toxic Deluge

which leaves 6-8 SB slots up in the air for various stuff.
- Maybe SB Thorns for Combo/spell-heavy decks? Has anybody experience if Sphere of Resistance slows Shardless down enough (e.g. Making Shardless Agent a 5 mana deal instead of 3 mana one)?
- Warping Wail #3?
- Some anti-Blood Moon tech would be nice that has other applications as well. Could be either artifact/enchantment removal or, as I mentioned previously, colorless mana artifacts with utility. Or maybe just straight up ramp artifacts (Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith) + SB Ulamog? Or GW Talismans with World Breaker?
- I don't know how valid Containment Priest is anymore with multiple Toxic Deluges in the deck.

Riehu
04-05-2016, 07:31 AM
Looking closer at my numbers, I'll try out this manabase, as it seems like the most reasonable combination of speed, consistency and utility, given the numbers:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas
4 Lotus Petal

Now all what I have to do is building a sideboard that does its job vs Shardless while being good vs other decks as well. From my experience, Matter Reshaper, Mishra's Factory and All is Dust are all cards that performed well vs Shardless. The best way to win is to overrun them before they can get their CA engine going and grow their Goyfs beyond our reach. Reshaper and Factory aren't really options for the BW build, but I could see 2-3 All is Dust doing well. I'm unsure if I rather want to run RiP or Leyline as GY hate of choice. How Toxic Deluge performs vs Shardless isn't entirely clear, either.

So far, my new board looks like this:
1 Karakas
3-4 RiP/Leyline
2-3 All is Dust (heavily leaning towards 3 copies since that worked best for me)
1 Toxic Deluge

which leaves 6-8 SB slots up in the air for various stuff.
- Maybe SB Thorns for Combo/spell-heavy decks? Has anybody experience if Sphere of Resistance slows Shardless down enough (e.g. Making Shardless Agent a 5 mana deal instead of 3 mana one)?
- Warping Wail #3?
- Some anti-Blood Moon tech would be nice that has other applications as well. Could be either artifact/enchantment removal or, as I mentioned previously, colorless mana artifacts with utility. Or maybe just straight up ramp artifacts (Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith) + SB Ulamog? Or GW Talismans with World Breaker?
- I don't know how valid Containment Priest is anymore with multiple Toxic Deluges in the deck.

I have been playing with 2 Perish in the sideboard. So far it has been helpful and I will keep them on board. Also tried out 2 Unburial Rites to combat Hymns but never seemed to find them so can't tell how they are. Our biggest strength vs them is obviously the early game so I would still run 3 Eye of Ugin (also for All Is Dust I would run 3) but let us know how you do with the build above.

Deluge gets countered at times and that hurts. It still has helped me.

Hopo
04-05-2016, 07:56 AM
If you feel like preparing for discard, there's also stuff like Spiritual Focus (soft to Decay) and of course white leyline. I have no idea whether 8-leyline sideboard makes sense.

Barook
04-05-2016, 09:06 AM
I have been playing with 2 Perish in the sideboard. So far it has been helpful and I will keep them on board. Also tried out 2 Unburial Rites to combat Hymns but never seemed to find them so can't tell how they are. Our biggest strength vs them is obviously the early game so I would still run 3 Eye of Ugin (also for All Is Dust I would run 3) but let us know how you do with the build above.

Deluge gets countered at times and that hurts. It still has helped me.


I have been playing with 2 Perish in the sideboard. So far it has been helpful and I will keep them on board. Also tried out 2 Unburial Rites to combat Hymns but never seemed to find them so can't tell how they are. Our biggest strength vs them is obviously the early game so I would still run 3 Eye of Ugin (also for All Is Dust I would run 3) but let us know how you do with the build above.

Deluge gets countered at times and that hurts. It still has helped me.
Looking at the numbers, the argument of "going broken" with Eye to overrun them isn't that great when it comes down to 3 Eyes (6%) vs 2 Eyes (4%) in the opening 7 (6% vs 9% on the draw).

Perish sounds like a great SB card since it's another one-sided sweeper, although it can't solve our biggest roadblock in the match-up, Baleful Strix.

However, there's something else what makes me reconsider my position: Thran Dynamo. I bring in All is Dust vs Blood Moon decks anyway (and more often than not, I was able to cast it after a while and win the game) and Thran Dynamo sets up an All is Dust rather handily by going from 4 --> 7 mana while also allowing you to normally cast your Eldrazi spells with C in it. Other applications could be making Eye activations actually feasible instead of a rare occurance. 4 mana plus double Dynamo also means Ulamog mana. I could see a SB plan of 3 Dynamo + 1 Ulamog happen, if it works well, even 4 Dynamo and 2 Ulamog for the more grindy games. I'll do some goldfishing and see how I like it.

EDIT: Currently screwing around with 4 Grim Monolith instead of Dynamo for speed reasons. While Monoliths are mostly one-shot accelerants, they might fit the strategy better since they can enable pretty silly things like huge Endless Ones by T2 or T3. That one is going to need significantly more testing before I buy them on MTGO, simply because a playset costs 80$.

f7eleven
04-05-2016, 09:55 AM
Grim Monolith seems way better than dynamo if you're going that route. Bloodmoon protection AND turn-1 TKS!!

Barook
04-05-2016, 10:01 AM
Grim Monolith seems way better than dynamo if you're going that route. Bloodmoon protection AND turn-1 TKS!!
Unless you have 2 Monoliths or a Lotus Petal to complement the first Monolith, that's not going to work.

Since it's an additional speed bump, I could see applications in other match-ups as well, e.g. the mirror. Jamming down a huge Endless One early should give them major trouble unless they get a Displacer online.

darkgh0st
04-05-2016, 11:05 AM
I'm finding 3x Trinisphere in the SB useful vs Shardless BUG. Anybody else wanna try/confirm this?

Grim Monolith can take the colorless version to a turn 2 Endbringer or a faster fetch with Eye at times. I will try it in the SB next tourney.

Thereisnocomp2
04-05-2016, 11:13 AM
Looking closer at my numbers, I'll try out this manabase, as it seems like the most reasonable combination of speed, consistency and utility, given the numbers:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas
4 Lotus Petal

Now all what I have to do is building a sideboard that does its job vs Shardless while being good vs other decks as well. From my experience, Matter Reshaper, Mishra's Factory and All is Dust are all cards that performed well vs Shardless. The best way to win is to overrun them before they can get their CA engine going and grow their Goyfs beyond our reach. Reshaper and Factory aren't really options for the BW build, but I could see 2-3 All is Dust doing well. I'm unsure if I rather want to run RiP or Leyline as GY hate of choice. How Toxic Deluge performs vs Shardless isn't entirely clear, either.

So far, my new board looks like this:
1 Karakas
3-4 RiP/Leyline
2-3 All is Dust (heavily leaning towards 3 copies since that worked best for me)
1 Toxic Deluge

which leaves 6-8 SB slots up in the air for various stuff.
- Maybe SB Thorns for Combo/spell-heavy decks? Has anybody experience if Sphere of Resistance slows Shardless down enough (e.g. Making Shardless Agent a 5 mana deal instead of 3 mana one)?
- Warping Wail #3?
- Some anti-Blood Moon tech would be nice that has other applications as well. Could be either artifact/enchantment removal or, as I mentioned previously, colorless mana artifacts with utility. Or maybe just straight up ramp artifacts (Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith) + SB Ulamog? Or GW Talismans with World Breaker?
- I don't know how valid Containment Priest is anymore with multiple Toxic Deluges in the deck.


Was not attempting to be salty Barook, only noting that i have been pushing the Deluge agenda since jump street and instead of getting quality critiques back as i try to interact my comments were just seemingly ignored. I am so on this deck that i have forsaken the entirity of my Magic collection to focus solely on the deck and the Legacy metagame it has inherited.

I would just like to discuss that is all. :)

Priest has been cut from the main, as the only decks i want both against ate Elves and Death and Taxes, where the overlap is well worth it for GSZ and Aether Vial.

Going to be grinding all day with an updated list (2 Deluge main still, Containment Priests out, 2 Jitte and 3 Wail configuration) and will post results later. Really wish i could afford to put this together on MTGO but i already have it in Paper and am currently going through a rough custody dispute costing me.

Totenstille
04-05-2016, 12:06 PM
Hi,

For cards that helps with shardless Consider perish, Rest in Peace and Chalice on 0.
that all helps. Its not a great matchup but if we can keep up the speed its winnable.
All is dust Sounds sweet. Dont Know-how often we can cast it reliable.
I think as Long as we can keep tarmogoyf out of Business we can kill them.
Strix has to be killed by warping wail or maybe jitte counters.

Friendly regards

Cire
04-05-2016, 04:16 PM
Seems that the Helm SB plan is becoming popular: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30564-Helm-in-Eldrazi-the-Japanese-approach

Edit: Additionally, results from my test list with two color main deck splash and splash for black for SB toxics from: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30500-DTB-Eldrazi-Stompy&p=941832&viewfull=1#post941832

Missing 3 lock pieces is absolutely brutal, whether it is sphere or thorn, this is a stompy deck foremost and splashing that many colors and cutting 3 lock pieces was too much for the deck. That said, the times that Chalic was in my hand, and displacer/toxic/worldbreaker all found their way into my hand it was nice. It was clunky - and running 2/2 split with lotus petals/ mox diamond was probably the wrong call. Lotus petals weren't enough for the many colors. I would run 1/3 split next time, just to try it out. That said, I don't think there is much future in that direction. It is simply more efficent to be colorless or just splash a single color and have a minor color splash for SB Black or Green.

My next test list will be one featuring blue for SB chills, this is due to a current proliferation of Blood Moon decks in my meta and I want to see how Chill works against them. If it would be worth it to the greater community, I don't know.

darkgh0st
04-05-2016, 06:25 PM
Colorless Eldrazi v1.02
darkghost


Lands (25)
Spells (16)
Creatures (19)
Sideboard



4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth




4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tangle Wire
4 Grim Monolith
1 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte




4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Endbringer




3 Trinisphere
2 All is Dust
10 open slots still




Hi all. So I tested Grim Monolith and ended up liking and stuck it maindeck. I also ended up with the Colorless variant again taking out the Displacers as I end up getting Endbringers faster for the grind. The Tangle Wires are there to (possibly) delay until I get my bigger creatures. DnT still remains a problematic match-up.

I was not sure if 2 Dismembers and 1 Warping Wail was the right choice for spot removal.

I definitely have to have something more in the sideboard for the Storm match-up as I've taken all the tax effects out MD.

Barook
04-05-2016, 09:48 PM
I'm leaning towards RiP as GY hate of choice now. As nice as AD immunity, T0 availability and being uncounterable are, actually being able cast it & completely shutting down anything GY-related, including DRS & Goyf feels stronger to me.

Played my first game against a Moon effect on Cockatrice with Monolith. It felt pretty good. I could operate normally under Blood Moon, being able to cast my TKS and Smasher. Mana stones that tap for colorless might be one of the best solutions to Blood Moon effects, including the colorless version of the deck. But that opens up the question what's the most fitting one for our deck?

Deluge continues to impress me in various match-ups, like killing a Blazing Archon that slipped through after my Leyline got bounced (RiP would have solved that problem). I think the 2 MD/1 SB copy split is a pretty good one.

MD.Ghost
04-06-2016, 03:03 AM
I'm leaning towards RiP as GY hate of choice now. As nice as AD immunity, T0 availability and being uncounterable are, actually being able cast it & completely shutting down anything GY-related, including DRS & Goyf feels stronger to me.

Played my first game against a Moon effect on Cockatrice with Monolith. It felt pretty good. I could operate normally under Blood Moon, being able to cast my TKS and Smasher. Mana stones that tap for colorless might be one of the best solutions to Blood Moon effects, including the colorless version of the deck. But that opens up the question what's the most fitting one for our deck?

Deluge continues to impress me in various match-ups, like killing a Blazing Archon that slipped through after my Leyline got bounced (RiP would have solved that problem). I think the 2 MD/1 SB copy split is a pretty good one.

@RiP: That is right for me too - if a build have enough white mana, RiP should be the way to go. It helps to have some "speed" with Petals/Guides to be able to play it turn 1 if it matters.

@Moon/Mana Stones: One of my very first sketches from the deck was with Grim Monolith, but the build overall aimed for a longer Game (with Bombs like Ulamog, All is Dust Main etc.) so no fast Mimic Beatdown. I don't see Monolith in a streamlined build like most (colorless) Aggro Version. Since most of the time its a "fire and forget" ability, i would play any petal/guide over it. Monolith can be dazed/pierced (or for the blowout, daze the Smasher you cast with it), it will be a target for Decay/Wear or even Stuff like Null Rod (i faced one from Dragon Stompy and it killed my 3 Monoliths and 3 Talisman as outs for the Moon: "GG").

If you wan't some slots vs Moon i would chose: Wastes (i knew you don't like it^^). Wastes can't be countered and can't be destroyed so easily and you simply can ignore Moon with one <c> per Turn. It also will (like a Mana Artifact) work to some degree vs Manadenial if you increase the land count (or get rid of some Cities if the matchup tends to be a Grind). Bonus vs Random Matchups: Path to Exile (DnT/Maverick)/Veteran Explorer (Nic Fit)/From the Ashes (Miracle) lose some power if you have a pair of Basics at Side. The bottom line is that i would play Wastes over any Mana Stone if its only a Sidetech. Monoliths and Talisman are still a valid choice for (not so common) midrange builds including higher cc like Ulamog etc.

@Toxic Deluge: Killing Blazing Archon isn't a good example here, because -6/-6 tends to also wipe all your Eldrazi Creatures^^ I would love to see my Bearer of Silence in this situation (if it is the common case that you only faced one scary reanimate target). As someone mentioned, Toxic for 5+ (Gofy, Angler etc.) can be a harsh decision, especially if you also used Tomb/Dismember. Overall i see the Deluge tech as a valid weapon if you aim to wipe a field full of Grixis Stuff, or Shardless with Strix, DS and Agent or for matchups like Elves and DnT where All is Dust can be to slow etc.

--------
Faced some BUG Decks yesterday and won all of them with the Devoid-Build (see above), all the Removal worked (unsurprisingly) very good so far. Bojuka Bog (added a 2nd copy over CoW) also appeared sometimes shrinked the GY (Gofy/DS) and worked as an additional (B) Landdrop.

CovenantElite30
04-06-2016, 09:41 AM
Anyone got a good non-wasteland version?

I was thinking of playing @Riehu Black White version with toxic deluge in the main.

Should I just play Bearer of Silence?

MD.Ghost
04-06-2016, 10:08 AM
Anyone got a good non-wasteland version?

I was thinking of playing @Riehu Black White version with toxic deluge in the main.

Should I just play Bearer of Silence?

You can try my Devoid-Version (with Bearer, Displacer, Breaker etc. - see above), or the gW build from Barook (i also posted a list above) or the WB build with Toxic Deluge from Riehu (Barook posted his customized list as well). All 3 decks have Displacer (!) and gW + WB can also support white Sideboard cards to some degree.

You can also try a colorless shell and cut Wasteland for Mishra's Factory or aim bigger and play a Cloudpost Shell with Ulamog.

My conclusion is that it is no superior "non-wasteland version" version. It all depends on meta (note: MODO isn't paper) and playstyle.

Riehu
04-06-2016, 10:31 AM
You can try my Devoid-Version (with Bearer, Displacer, Breaker etc. - see above), or the gW build from Barook (i also posted a list above) or the WB build with Toxic Deluge from Riehu (Barook posted his customized list as well). All 3 decks have Displacer (!) and gW + WB can also support white Sideboard cards to some degree.

You can also try a colorless shell and cut Wasteland for Mishra's Factory or aim bigger and play a Cloudpost Shell with Ulamog.

My conclusion is that it is no superior "non-wasteland version" version. It all depends on meta (note: MODO isn't paper) and playstyle.

Played two leagues with colorless version for a change today. Other 5-0 and other is 1-2 (lost to Slivers hehe and Sneak&Show).

I think the list was this:

4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Endbringer
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
3 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory


3 Faerie Macabre
2 All Is Dust
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

Wanted to try go all aggro with lock pieces for a change. Worked this time (I guess I drew well too) and it was a nice change to just lock and bash. All Is Dust I got to finally cast as well, working like a charm. Will try that in the BW version again too most likely.

4 color Deathblade 2-1
High Tide 2-0
The Cure 2-0
Sneak&Show 2-1
URB pyromancer / snapcaster (Moon sb) 2-1

RhoxWarMonk
04-06-2016, 11:55 AM
@Riehu -- Did you miss the wastelands at all? I've been thinking about cutting the wastelands for Mishra's factories as well -- how was that change? Would you continue to play the same mana base or would you go back to the 4x Wasteland version instead?

Riehu
04-06-2016, 12:26 PM
@Riehu -- Did you miss the wastelands at all? I've been thinking about cutting the wastelands for Mishra's factories as well -- how was that change? Would you continue to play the same mana base or would you go back to the 4x Wasteland version instead?

Did not too much but played so few matches that can't really say. I will try out this version for a while so I have more match ups under the belt so I can decide which is better. They would make sense with lots of lock pieces obviously but we're very mana hungry as well. Will keep testing.

darkgh0st
04-06-2016, 01:28 PM
@Grim Monolith: The big plus about this deck is that we are not mana-rock dependent. We can actually cut down to 3 and even side them out for certain match-ups. The arguement about Daze is fine, but it is a playstyle problem and not with the actual cards mentioned. AD on a Monolith also means that it's one less towards your Mimic/Endless one.

EDIT: Eldrazi took over Miracles and Grixis in March for points as the DTB!!!

iostream
04-07-2016, 12:23 PM
Has anyone figured out decent sideboard plans against midrange decks? For instance, is Toxic Deluge worth bringing in against Shardless BUG? I feel that even in splash versions, we haven't identified truly powerful options that would turn those matchups around.

dave8
04-07-2016, 04:56 PM
Just play with white&red version and you will be favored in this matchup.

Barook
04-07-2016, 04:58 PM
I've seen discussion about the RW variant in the Shardless thread. Does anybody have a sample list?

iostream
04-07-2016, 05:26 PM
I'm not sure what Red could possibly offer to help the Shardless matchup - Obligator? But a random threaten is usually not going to make the difference on a stalled board. I would have imagined that the blue splash would be good for Drowner of Hope, which generates value with Displacer and acts as a kind of Falter effect when you are close to pushing through the last few points of damage.

Barook
04-07-2016, 05:56 PM
Riehu 5-0'ed another league (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/397674#online)

I entered the league with his exact list, 2-0 so far:

R1: Shardless 2-1
G1 I get fast beats while he has a slow draw,
G2 He goes nuts with T1 DRS, T2 Lili, T3 Jace - despite me being able to take both PWs down with based Mishra's Factories, he has drawn replacements for both anyway while I choke on mana
G3 I have an excellent hand while he mulls to 4. He concedes rather quickly.

R2: UR Painter (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/387105#online)
G1: Turns out he can't do shit vs Chalice @1
G2: I kill both of his Welder and lay down Chalice @1. He finds a Blood Moon and we go on with 20+ Turns of draw go. :rolleyes: Once he ran out of Forces, a huge Endless One finishes the job on Turn 30 (http://imgur.com/ZNb1MRf).

I'm really tempted to throw in some colorless sources into the board, just to prevent these kind of non-games. The Shardless match also reinforces my opinion that lists with Matter Reshaper and Factories are better against Shardless than lists without them.

metronome2charisma
04-07-2016, 08:46 PM
3-1D last night . played colorless.

round 1 played against shardless . Trinisphere did work . end bringer was great . 2-1

round 2 dark maverick . chalice,tks and revoker took one game , smasher,smasher, phyrexian metamorphic was good. 2-0

round 3 miracles . grindy game one mentor top combo got out of control, chalice on 1 into tks ,tks got me there . game three he ruinationed me , never recovered ( i also made a big misplay that we're not going to discus, i don't think it affected the outcome but it still sucked ) 1-2

round 4 infect . he's on the play he plays a creature i chalice on 1 , he attacks for one infect . i untap dismember and take over the game. . game 2 i warping wail his turn one glistener elf. play a thorn make 2 4/4 endless ones and end the game. he wastelanded me 2 times which made thorn better but my endless ones worse , they still got me there. 2-0

4 eldrazi mimic
4 thought knot seer
4 reality smasher
4 matter reshaper
3 endless one
3 spirit guide
1 phyrexian revoker
2 endbringerr
1 phyrexian metamorph

4 chalice of the void
2 trinisphere
1 jitte
1 dismember
2 warping wail
10

4 tomb
4 eldrazi temple
3 eye of gin
3 city of traitors
3 cavern of souls
3 mishras factory
1 crystal vien
2 urborg
1 karakas

sb
3 leyline of the void
1 winter orb
2 thorn
1 pithing needle
1 oblivion sower
1 warping wail
1 dismember
2 ratchet bomb
2 phyrexian revoker
1 batterskull


Moving forward i would like to try another metamorph md and another jitte in the board. trinisphere is just so good at slowing games down . The 1 md revoker and 2 sb are MAINLY for the white-eldrazi mirror ( heavy local eldrazi presence ) but they're great against miracles and a whole bunch of other random stuff as well.
i switched back to the colorless version because i really like the aggressiveness and consistency of the colorless version. the white version felt much slower ,you couldn't play mishras factory and its very mana hungry . also i'm waiting to get the 4th leyline .it will be 4 in the board when that happens.

iostream
04-07-2016, 10:31 PM
My general feeling after having extensively tested the white based splashes is that Displacer is really the only card that is really worth it. RiP and Priest have gradually been shaved to zero as I've realized that Priest is quite narrow overall and RiP is generally worse than Leyline in most of the matchups where you might want that sort of effect. Disenchant and Deluge are just really hard to cast. But man, what a difference Displacer makes in some matchups. D+T and Infect become so much easier with access to it.

The downside is basically just that you don't get to play Mishra's Factory, which is big because it greatly increases your threat density, and that things like Baleful Strix become harder to clear since you don't have Matter Reshaper to get eaten by them for marginal value. Wasteland is surprisingly not a downside. It doesn't turn around any of the matchups that screw you over, and I didn't miss it when I was playing the white deck.

GoblinTurkey
04-08-2016, 06:56 AM
I still am supporting Sensei's Divining Top as a two of in this deck.

I have been running it for the two months, and it is the reason that I win games that go on too long. It can also help set up an early game if you have a bad hand. I found that I mulligan'd less when I had a top in hand and those games I would usually win because I was controlling the draw step.

Barook
04-08-2016, 07:10 AM
My general feeling after having extensively tested the white based splashes is that Displacer is really the only card that is really worth it. RiP and Priest have gradually been shaved to zero as I've realized that Priest is quite narrow overall and RiP is generally worse than Leyline in most of the matchups where you might want that sort of effect. Disenchant and Deluge are just really hard to cast. But man, what a difference Displacer makes in some matchups. D+T and Infect become so much easier with access to it.

The downside is basically just that you don't get to play Mishra's Factory, which is big because it greatly increases your threat density, and that things like Baleful Strix become harder to clear since you don't have Matter Reshaper to get eaten by them for marginal value. Wasteland is surprisingly not a downside. It doesn't turn around any of the matchups that screw you over, and I didn't miss it when I was playing the white deck.
I like Factory alot. It goes along very well with the aggro plan and can play defence, if necessary, as well.

The more I play, the more I come to the conclusion that Eldrazi is a metagame deck. There are various builds that can do well, but e.g. a colorless build with Matter Reshaper is better in a meta with e.g. Shardless while Displacer builds do well against equipment, tokens, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, Infect, etc.

Finished the league with Riehu's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/397674#online) 4-1:

R1: Shardless BUG 2-1
R2: UR Painter 2-0
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: UB Tezzeret Staxx with Thopther Sword combo & Ensnaring Bridge 1-2
R5: Esper (Death?)blade 2-0

A couple of impressions about the build:

- All is Dust continues to be an all-star; I really prefer 3x copies for all those grindy control/midrange match-ups

- this particular build has a serious lack of good answers against Ensnaring Bridge (which also cost me the game twice vs Tezzeret Staxx. I could fire a Bomb vs it + Academy Ruins on the board to ensure lethal G2, but G1 was lost to the lock as was G3 when he also needled my Bomb :rolleyes: )

- Urborg is a card that must be treated with caution: It came up a few times in this league run that my opponent also benefitted from its effects; as nice as painless tapping is, I don't think it's worth 2 copies since the combo with Eye also doesn't provide colorless mana

- I like MD Thorn less and less. I can't remember a time when I thought "Man, I really want a Thorn now."

- Endbringer is BAD. I don't understand how people are still running it. The times you have the mana to resolve Endbringer and the time to actually get some value out of it are basically Magical Christmasland scenarios.

- Factories perform well as always. I've warmed up for Matter Reshaper and Endless One after initially shying away from them with my GW builds.

Some other things which maybe Riehu can answer:

- How has Sphere of Resistance been for you? Do you bring it in vs creature-based decks as well, like Shardless?

- How have Faeries as your only GY hate been for you so far? This approach seems kinda weak to decks that rely alot on the GY, but without a particular card, like Dredge or KotR.

Where to go from here? I'm considering to play the Legacy Challenge tomorrow, but each build has particular weaknesses that don't sit well with me.
Matter Reshaper is obviously a requirement due to the amount of Shardless in the MTGO meta, as are my beloved Factories. But then again, I miss my Displacers - not playing them feels like having a blind spot against alot of random unfair crap. I can't really find evidence that it has been done before, but:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/clashofclans/images/c/ce/Why_not_both%3F.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130824200436

If the deck only runs a couple of Displacers instead of going deep into white, it becomes significantly easier on the mana and still allows us to run Factories:

Displacers Matter.dec

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
9 slots up to debate (I still want at least some outs against Blood Moon & Ensnaring Bridge and appropriate GY hate; maybe some Sphere effects as well)

Maybe I'll shelve another land (4th Factory, 3rd Eye or the last Urborg are candidates) for another white source in form of Cave of Koilos (or Brushland for SB World Breaker - I like that idea very much; should be doable with 8 green sources total) to support Displacer better, depending on how the manabase works with 9 white sources pre-board. Displacer is another cheap beater to bring in for even more early aggression alongside Factory instead of Endbringer lategame shenanigans. T1 Eye + Mimic/Endless One + Petal into Displacer are at least 5 power on the board T1 since Displacer can actually be played of Petal, unlike Matter Reshaper with Guides/Petal.

Thoughts about the new build and SB considerations?

Riehu
04-08-2016, 07:55 AM
Great posts! I will write my input tomorrow while I play the Monthly MOCS. Anyone else joining for that?

CovenantElite30
04-08-2016, 08:18 AM
Great posts! I will write my input tomorrow while I play the Monthly MOCS. Anyone else joining for that?

Any of you guys streaming the event?

Barook
04-08-2016, 08:20 AM
Great posts! I will write my input tomorrow while I play the Monthly MOCS. Anyone else joining for that?
Me - maybe. If you wish to discuss things before the challenge without revealing your list/plans to the public, I'd appreciate feedback via PM.

Thinking about it a bit further, I like the World Breaker SB plan more and more. The MD is a stream-lined aggro deck while the SB enables the heavy-hitter answers like World Breaker and All is Dust.

Which means
-1 Urborg
+1 Brushland

and additionally (maybe)
-1 Factory
+1 Brushland

Two Brushland would probably stabilize Displacer better, too. So for the SB, I'm currently at:

1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
2 World Breaker

which means 8 free slots for the rest. I'm thinking about something like this:

1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sphere effects (either Thorn or Sphere)

Sadly, I can't include Wastes into this board, but Blood Moon is at 11.86% in the current MTGO meta. Maybe 3x All is Dust is enough to get lucky, since World Breaker on Lotus Petals alone hasn't been a reliable answer to BM.

Thoughts?

@CovenantElite30: Can't stream as long as my upload is too shitty in my current apartment. It's going to take a few months before I'm moving to a new one.

RhoxWarMonk
04-08-2016, 08:40 AM
I like Factory alot. It goes along very well with the aggro plan and can play defence, if necessary, as well.

The more I play, the more I come to the conclusion that Eldrazi is a metagame deck. There are various builds that can do well, but e.g. a colorless build with Matter Reshaper is better in a meta with e.g. Shardless while Displacer builds do well against equipment, tokens, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, Infect, etc.

Finished the league with Riehu's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/397674#online) 4-1:

R1: Shardless BUG 2-1
R2: UR Painter 2-0
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: UB Tezzeret Staxx with Thopther Sword combo & Ensnaring Bridge 1-2
R5: Esper (Death?)blade 2-0

A couple of impressions about the build:

- All is Dust continues to be an all-star; I really prefer 3x copies for all those grindy control/midrange match-ups

- this particular build has a serious lack of good answers against Ensnaring Bridge (which also cost me the game twice vs Tezzeret Staxx. I could fire a Bomb vs it + Academy Ruins on the board to ensure lethal G2, but G1 was lost to the lock as was G3 when he also needled my Bomb :rolleyes: )

- Urborg is a card that must be treated with caution: It came up a few times in this league run that my opponent also benefitted from its effects; as nice as painless tapping is, I don't think it's worth 2 copies since the combo with Eye also doesn't provide colorless mana

- I like MD Thorn less and less. I can't remember a time when I thought "Man, I really want a Thorn now."

- Endbringer is BAD. I don't understand how people are still running it. The times you have the mana to resolve Endbringer and the time to actually get some value out of it are basically Magical Christmasland scenarios.

- Factories perform well as always. I've warmed up for Matter Reshaper and Endless One after initially shying away from them with my GW builds.

Some other things which maybe Riehu can answer:

- How has Sphere of Resistance been for you? Do you bring it in vs creature-based decks as well, like Shardless?

- How have Faeries as your only GY hate been for you so far? This approach seems kinda weak to decks that rely alot on the GY, but without a particular card, like Dredge or KotR.

Where to go from here? I'm considering to play the Legacy Challenge tomorrow, but each build has particular weaknesses that don't sit well with me.
Matter Reshaper is obviously a requirement due to the amount of Shardless in the MTGO meta, as are my beloved Factories. But then again, I miss my Displacers - not playing them feels like having a blind spot against alot of random unfair crap. I can't really find evidence that it has been done before, but:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/clashofclans/images/c/ce/Why_not_both%3F.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130824200436

If the deck only runs a couple of Displacers instead of going deep into white, it becomes significantly easier on the mana and still allows us to run Factories:

Displacers Matter.dec

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
9 slots up to debate (I still want at least some outs against Blood Moon & Ensnaring Bridge and appropriate GY hate; maybe some Sphere effects as well)

Maybe I'll shelve another land (4th Factory, 3rd Eye or the last Urborg are candidates) for another white source in form of Cave of Koilos (or Brushland for SB World Breaker - I like that idea very much; should be doable with 8 green sources total) to support Displacer better, depending on how the manabase works with 9 white sources pre-board. Displacer is another cheap beater to bring in for even more early aggression alongside Factory instead of Endbringer lategame shenanigans. T1 Eye + Mimic/Endless One + Petal into Displacer are at least 5 power on the board T1 since Displacer can actually be played of Petal, unlike Matter Reshaper with Guides/Petal.

Thoughts about the new build and SB considerations?

Ive actually been trying something very similar with my MD -- decided to just go with just the displacer and no other white splash, however, I was running Caves over Factories in my version (along with 3 lotus petals). Unfortunately, I'm not sure only the caverns and petals are enough to reliably cast Displacer. Even with the additional 4 white sources, I still missed white mana about 10% of the time on turn 2-3, which means Displacer was unable to be cast when I wanted to and that's with an additional 4 mana sources.

I love Displacer too and I'd really like to make it work in the colorless shell but it also might be getting a little too greedy. Your version is almost identical to mine I was testing outside the Factories/Caves difference though and overall it felt pretty good.

Right now, I'm considering going back to the colorless version and going with 4 factories over 4 wastelands, with 2 Karakas and 1 Urborg. I really, REALLY wanted to love Endbringer -- it looks like such a good card but unfortunately I came to the same realization as you did about it; simply, it's not very good outside sneak and show style decks, which is a very small percentage of the meta here. I should note, I don't play on MTGO (all paperback), so it's possible your mileage may vary depending on what decks you play against regularly.

My only disagreement was about Thorns -- I originally cut them and have since added them back because they make the storm matchup insanely good!! Storm is still a thing here and a 1st turn thorns (or Chalice) is simply amazing against them. I have 2x Trinisphere in the side I bring in against them as well and perhaps there's an argument to be made that all the lock pieces can go into the side but they slow down decks like Miracles and Shardless just enough to make it worthwhile to keep in the main -- I don't think I'd go more than 2-3 copies -- right now Im playing 2 and that seems decent but I've toyed with the idea of squeezing in a 3rd.

Ive not tested All is Dust much -- just a singleton in my board, but it's never really come up. Perhaps I should expand on this and add a second to the side?

As for GY hate, I like Leyline over the Fairies. It really helps a lot against GY centric decks, which the Fairies aren't quite as robust against. The downside is you really need to run 4 and it's a shitty top deck, being only able to cast it off an Urborg - at least in the colorless version.

I really feel the Factories are where it's at for the colorless version right now, they just do so much more than what Wasteland gives you ... I need to playtest more with this version but so far, so good.

One question to ask back, is anyone still liking the Spirit guides? I admit, I was skeptical but I'm liking them more and more. Allows for turn 2 Smashers (which would be impossible otherwise) and it's an all-star against Daze decks like Delver or even Infect. They've been surprisingly effective.

Barook
04-08-2016, 09:00 AM
@RhoxWarMonk:
Even if you can cast Leyline later into the game, chances are they already slipped through a bunch of stuff that is going to give you trouble. Serum Powder could help finding it in your starting hand while also serving as an anti-Blood Moon card, but I can't really find the space to fit two copies in, aside from Powder being completely untested. Is there an article that gives the chances to find something with Serum Powder? That would be very helpful.

I'm not too concerned about Storm. The existence of Eldrazi cut down their number significantly and we already run a bunch of MD stuff that really hurts them, with more stuff to bring in against them.

As for All is Dust, I'd run at least two.

RhoxWarMonk
04-08-2016, 09:05 AM
@RhoxWarMonk:
Even if you can cast Leyline later into the game, chances are they already slipped through a bunch of stuff that is going to give you trouble. Serum Powder could help finding it in your starting hand while also serving as an anti-Blood Moon card, but I can't really find the space to fit two copies in, aside from Powder being completely untested. Is there an article that gives the chances to find something with Serum Powder? That would be very helpful.

You are 100% correct - leyline really only shines in your opening hand. It makes top-decking them absolutely horrible but you NEED to run 4 of them to have any sort of consistency of having it in the opener. In my experience though, it's been better than Crypt and Fairies, so I'll keep them in for the time being. I'm not even running the Helm combo at the moment but I've considered picking up a few to test that out (still haven't tried it).



I'm not too concerned about Storm. The existence of Eldrazi cut down their number significantly and we already run a bunch of MD stuff that really hurts them, with more stuff to bring in against them.


If storm (or similar decks) isn't a matchup you get often, then I agree, Thorns are likely not needed. They really shines against those type of glass cannon decks but they feel less so against others. Though, I don't find them a liability against decks like Miracles or Shardless, they're likely better as something else if you're seeing a lot of those decks vs fast combo.



As for All is Dust, I'd run at least two.

Thanks for the suggestion -- I'll squeeze a second into my board. What are you bringing them in against most often?

iostream
04-08-2016, 09:09 AM
Displacers Matter.dec

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
9 slots up to debate (I still want at least some outs against Blood Moon & Ensnaring Bridge and appropriate GY hate; maybe some Sphere effects as well)

Maybe I'll shelve another land (4th Factory, 3rd Eye or the last Urborg are candidates) for another white source in form of Cave of Koilos (or Brushland for SB World Breaker - I like that idea very much; should be doable with 8 green sources total) to support Displacer better, depending on how the manabase works with 9 white sources pre-board. Displacer is another cheap beater to bring in for even more early aggression alongside Factory instead of Endbringer lategame shenanigans. T1 Eye + Mimic/Endless One + Petal into Displacer are at least 5 power on the board T1 since Displacer can actually be played of Petal, unlike Matter Reshaper with Guides/Petal.

Thoughts about the new build and SB considerations?This deck has very little hope of casting Displacer on time with only 9 white sources. I think you probably need to cut all three candidates you mentioned (4th Factory, 3rd Eye, Urborg) for more white sources. Also, if there was ever a deck where Tendo Ice Bridge had its time to shine, it's this one.

darkgh0st
04-08-2016, 10:33 AM
@Eldrazi Displacer: It is powerful. The question is, would you want to trade power with inconsistency? When you have to give too much for it, it may end up not becoming worth it. So I'm sticking to the colorless version for now.

@Endbringer: Part of the reason why I run him is because of Grim Monolith. The Monolith can have him out early. Though, I've still had games where he hits the board and does nothing because he gets neutered.

@ Spirit Guides: I've never used them or would like to use because of the one time effect. At least with Monolith, I can untap mid-game and use it to fetch with Eye.

@ grave-hate: I'm not running Leylines right now, but have them for BW variant. I am running 4 Surgical Extraction. I've had blow-out games vs Reanimator and Lands with them as they were not expecting one, or two. I've haven't had much dis-synergy with Chalice. The plays vs Reanimator usually go T1 Chalice, they respond with Force or Entomb, if Entomb, I take the creature away, If FoW, then that still works for me. vs Lands, gameplan is Chalice for 2 G2 and 3.

Riehu
04-08-2016, 11:01 AM
My general feeling after having extensively tested the white based splashes is that Displacer is really the only card that is really worth it. RiP and Priest have gradually been shaved to zero as I've realized that Priest is quite narrow overall and RiP is generally worse than Leyline in most of the matchups where you might want that sort of effect. Disenchant and Deluge are just really hard to cast. But man, what a difference Displacer makes in some matchups. D+T and Infect become so much easier with access to it.

The downside is basically just that you don't get to play Mishra's Factory, which is big because it greatly increases your threat density, and that things like Baleful Strix become harder to clear since you don't have Matter Reshaper to get eaten by them for marginal value. Wasteland is surprisingly not a downside. It doesn't turn around any of the matchups that screw you over, and I didn't miss it when I was playing the white deck.

Yes Mishra’s Factory has really shined lately in the colorless version. RiP and Priest I removed from the BW version quite soon after trying them out (even though managed to 5-0 one league), they are so meta dependent.

I also agree that Disenchant and Deluge are some times (too) hard to cast. But in certain matchups especially Deluge is very good to good (DNT, Infect, Elves, Goblins). I do miss it sometimes when playing colorless.


I like Factory alot. It goes along very well with the aggro plan and can play defence, if necessary, as well.

The more I play, the more I come to the conclusion that Eldrazi is a metagame deck. There are various builds that can do well, but e.g. a colorless build with Matter Reshaper is better in a meta with e.g. Shardless while Displacer builds do well against equipment, tokens, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, Infect, etc.

Finished the league with Riehu's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/397674#online) 4-1:

R1: Shardless BUG 2-1
R2: UR Painter 2-0
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: UB Tezzeret Staxx with Thopther Sword combo & Ensnaring Bridge 1-2
R5: Esper (Death?)blade 2-0

A couple of impressions about the build:

- All is Dust continues to be an all-star; I really prefer 3x copies for all those grindy control/midrange match-ups

- this particular build has a serious lack of good answers against Ensnaring Bridge (which also cost me the game twice vs Tezzeret Staxx. I could fire a Bomb vs it + Academy Ruins on the board to ensure lethal G2, but G1 was lost to the lock as was G3 when he also needled my Bomb :rolleyes: )

- Urborg is a card that must be treated with caution: It came up a few times in this league run that my opponent also benefitted from its effects; as nice as painless tapping is, I don't think it's worth 2 copies since the combo with Eye also doesn't provide colorless mana

- I like MD Thorn less and less. I can't remember a time when I thought "Man, I really want a Thorn now."

- Endbringer is BAD. I don't understand how people are still running it. The times you have the mana to resolve Endbringer and the time to actually get some value out of it are basically Magical Christmasland scenarios.

- Factories perform well as always. I've warmed up for Matter Reshaper and Endless One after initially shying away from them with my GW builds.


All is Dust has worked for me as well now that I have drawn it. I added one more to SB (total 3). Should have tested with it until I drew it few times. Lesson learned.

Yes, Ensnaring Bridge is very tough to beat. Need to get lucky with Ratchet Bombs and if one can’t use those, GG. But it’s not too many decks in the meta with those I believe and the off chance of removing it with Ratchet makes me feel I should just forget about that. At least for the time being.

About Urborg. I’m actually running a colorless version without it now. Trying out how it goes. So you’re findings are similar to mine.

I have now 2xThorn in the MD. It has been good in the Delver variant matchups and vs pyromancer decks I’ve ran into.

Endbringerx2 I have in the SB vs mirror and Show&Tell decks. Also running 2x Metamorph in main at the moment. Colorless version can be so very weak vs that.


Some other things which maybe Riehu can answer:

- How has Sphere of Resistance been for you? Do you bring it in vs creature-based decks as well, like Shardless?

- How have Faeries as your only GY hate been for you so far? This approach seems kinda weak to decks that rely alot on the GY, but without a particular card, like Dredge or KotR.


I would like to try Sphere vs Shardless and creature decks with not too many Wastelands but I have not drawn it. Removed it anyway from the current test version as I put in one more All is Dust and 2x Endbringer.

I moved back to Leylines as the discard from them ruins my day too often. It’s also very good vs ANT and slows down Lands.



Where to go from here? I'm considering to play the Legacy Challenge tomorrow, but each build has particular weaknesses that don't sit well with me.
Matter Reshaper is obviously a requirement due to the amount of Shardless in the MTGO meta, as are my beloved Factories. But then again, I miss my Displacers - not playing them feels like having a blind spot against alot of random unfair crap. I can't really find evidence that it has been done before, but:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/clashofclans/images/c/ce/Why_not_both%3F.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130824200436

If the deck only runs a couple of Displacers instead of going deep into white, it becomes significantly easier on the mana and still allows us to run Factories:

Displacers Matter.dec

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
9 slots up to debate (I still want at least some outs against Blood Moon & Ensnaring Bridge and appropriate GY hate; maybe some Sphere effects as well)

Maybe I'll shelve another land (4th Factory, 3rd Eye or the last Urborg are candidates) for another white source in form of Cave of Koilos (or Brushland for SB World Breaker - I like that idea very much; should be doable with 8 green sources total) to support Displacer better, depending on how the manabase works with 9 white sources pre-board. Displacer is another cheap beater to bring in for even more early aggression alongside Factory instead of Endbringer lategame shenanigans. T1 Eye + Mimic/Endless One + Petal into Displacer are at least 5 power on the board T1 since Displacer can actually be played of Petal, unlike Matter Reshaper with Guides/Petal.

Thoughts about the new build and SB considerations?

I played with something very similar for two leagues. Did not have Mishra’s but Caves to have more colored sources. And had 3 Reshaper + 3 Displacer. Mostly ran 3-2 with one 4-1. Made some mistakes and mulliganed more than normally so should have had better results. Some of the interactions in Legacy are still new to me and I tend to forget some. Like Pithing Needle on Metal Worker :p

I agree with others that Displacer is pretty much only reason to go white, though I have been saved by the Seal of Cleansing as well (Moon, Bridge). But it might be that Ratchet Bombs and All Is Dust are sufficient to combat those.

2x Pithing Needle I have had as well even though it clashes with CotV at times.

I would play 4x Leyline. And then some Rathect Bombs and Warping Wails.


Ive actually been trying something very similar with my MD -- decided to just go with just the displacer and no other white splash, however, I was running Caves over Factories in my version (along with 3 lotus petals). Unfortunately, I'm not sure only the caverns and petals are enough to reliably cast Displacer. Even with the additional 4 white sources, I still missed white mana about 10% of the time on turn 2-3, which means Displacer was unable to be cast when I wanted to and that's with an additional 4 mana sources.

I love Displacer too and I'd really like to make it work in the colorless shell but it also might be getting a little too greedy. Your version is almost identical to mine I was testing outside the Factories/Caves difference though and overall it felt pretty good.



4 Caves, 3 Petal, 2 Urborg, 4 Cavern and 1 Karakas I have had and still I have sometimes missed the consistency of colorless version. But there is added power of black and white that makes me come back to this version. As Barook put it well, I it’s seems to be a meta decision which version to run.


Right now, I'm considering going back to the colorless version and going with 4 factories over 4 wastelands, with 2 Karakas and 1 Urborg. I really, REALLY wanted to love Endbringer -- it looks like such a good card but unfortunately I came to the same realization as you did about it; simply, it's not very good outside sneak and show style decks, which is a very small percentage of the meta here. I should note, I don't play on MTGO (all paperback), so it's possible your mileage may vary depending on what decks you play against regularly.

My only disagreement was about Thorns -- I originally cut them and have since added them back because they make the storm matchup insanely good!! Storm is still a thing here and a 1st turn thorns (or Chalice) is simply amazing against them. I have 2x Trinisphere in the side I bring in against them as well and perhaps there's an argument to be made that all the lock pieces can go into the side but they slow down decks like Miracles and Shardless just enough to make it worthwhile to keep in the main -- I don't think I'd go more than 2-3 copies -- right now Im playing 2 and that seems decent but I've toyed with the idea of squeezing in a 3rd.

I removed Urborgs and Karakas from the current version and run 3 Wastelands instead. Don’t have results yet but at least the first 3-2 league gave me some hope. We’ll see how it goes.

Running 2x Thorn as well. The colorless version seems to need 6-8 lock pieces, and I’d imagine depending on meta they can be any of the three (Thorn, Sphere, Trinisphere).



Right
Ive not tested All is Dust much -- just a singleton in my board, but it's never really come up. Perhaps I should expand on this and add a second to the side?

As for GY hate, I like Leyline over the Fairies. It really helps a lot against GY centric decks, which the Fairies aren't quite as robust against. The downside is you really need to run 4 and it's a shitty top deck, being only able to cast it off an Urborg - at least in the colorless version.

I really feel the Factories are where it's at for the colorless version right now, they just do so much more than what Wasteland gives you ... I need to playtest more with this version but so far, so good.

One question to ask back, is anyone still liking the Spirit guides? I admit, I was skeptical but I'm liking them more and more. Allows for turn 2 Smashers (which would be impossible otherwise) and it's an all-star against Daze decks like Delver or even Infect. They've been surprisingly effective.

I agree with Leyline over Fairies as mentioned above. And I gave up the off chance to cast it from Urborg.

I do like Spirit guides as two of. 24 lands and two Spirit guides has felt right.




@ grave-hate: I'm not running Leylines right now, but have them for BW variant. I am running 4 Surgical Extraction. I've had blow-out games vs Reanimator and Lands with them as they were not expecting one, or two. I've haven't had much dis-synergy with Chalice. The plays vs Reanimator usually go T1 Chalice, they respond with Force or Entomb, if Entomb, I take the creature away, If FoW, then that still works for me. vs Lands, gameplan is Chalice for 2 G2 and 3.

I tried 2 Surgical as well and have wanted to give them another go. Maybe I’ll do that one day.

iostream
04-08-2016, 12:07 PM
I can imagine having it both ways with 4 Factories if you just run 1 or 2 Displacers. It's not like they get better in multiples, and if you're running the full 4 Matter Reshaper, the body doesn't matter, and the curve considerations are already taken care of.

Like I can imagine running 4 of all the good creatures + 2 Displacer with 2 Petals, 4 Cavern, 2 Karakas, and 1-2 other white sources of your choice. You have plenty to do with your mana with the addition of Factories and there is minimal risk that Displacer just gets stuck in your hand any worse than the standard 1-2 six-drops normally do - waiting for W mana for Displacer is similar to waiting for that fourth/fifth land for Endbringer.

Barook
04-08-2016, 01:54 PM
If the mana allows it, I would rather run at least 3 Displacers MD, even with a certain chance that it gets stuck in hand. Otherwise, we wouldn't run multiple copies of Legendary cards or Cities, either. It is that good against many decks. The latest league match against 4C Aggro Loam reminded me how Displacer can win games on its own (http://imgur.com/sJGBevZ), holding back his KotR for 4 turns straight.

G2, it was Leyline (http://i.imgur.com/slajnGh.jpg) (combined with a bit luck for topdecked second Smasher) which won me the game. I don't think other GY hate would have been as good here. Despite all its short-comings when not in the opening hand, Leyline is also an excellent anti-Storm card as the majority of their kills rely heavily on GY shenanigans. If they can't do that, they stop functioning for the most part.

iostream
04-08-2016, 02:07 PM
If the mana allows it, I would rather run at least 3 Displacers MD, even with a certain chance that it gets stuck in hand. Otherwise, we wouldn't run multiple copies of Legendary cards or Cities, either. It is that good against many decks. The latest league match against 4C Aggro Loam reminded me how Displacer can win games on its own (http://imgur.com/sJGBevZ), holding back his KotR for 4 turns straight.

G2, it was Leyline (http://i.imgur.com/slajnGh.jpg) (combined with a bit luck for topdecked second Smasher) which won me the game. I don't think other GY hate would have been as good here. Despite all its short-comings when not in the opening hand, Leyline is also an excellent anti-Storm card as the majority of their kills rely heavily on GY shenanigans. If they can't do that, they stop functioning for the most part.I completely agree on both points, but with regards to Displacer the whole question is whether "the mana allows it". If it doesn't, the next best thing is merely having access to the card. It's better to have 2 than 0. I think what will end up happening is that you have to choose between

a) 3-4 Displacer, 0-2 Factory
b) 3-4 Factory, 0-2 Displacers

And it will be very hard to have it both ways without doing something pretty drastic, like cutting a lot of Sol lands. For instance, something like this would definitely support 4 Factory, 4 Displacer, but at what cost?

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tendo Ice Bridge

with
2 Lotus Petal

Cire
04-08-2016, 02:13 PM
Some tests with blue in the Main Deck to run Chill in the SB (Metagame heavy with moon and painter):

Test List Cwu

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 U/W pain land
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Drowner of Sorrows

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

Sideboard:
3 Karakas
3 Chill
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Flusterstorm
2 All is Dust
1 Displacer
1 Dismember

Results: Still not enough blue sources - relying on Lotus petals for blue source 4-8 to cast chill or recall makes this deck finiky. I am at this point doubting the viability of any non-colorless non-eldrazi cards. I have also take nto running reshappers again with Displacers - I find it helpful against Shardless. I also find factories essential in that matchup. Finally, drowner of hope is fun, but unneede - would rather run endbringer.

Edit: this was also another test list where I ran only 4 prison pieces, but once again I found that number too small for my liking.

Going forward, I will continue to test above list making the following changes:

-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Drowner of Sorrow
-1 Reshaper
+1 Blue producing land
+2 Thorn

Thereisnocomp2
04-08-2016, 04:40 PM
I like Factory alot. It goes along very well with the aggro plan and can play defence, if necessary, as well.

The more I play, the more I come to the conclusion that Eldrazi is a metagame deck. There are various builds that can do well, but e.g. a colorless build with Matter Reshaper is better in a meta with e.g. Shardless while Displacer builds do well against equipment, tokens, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, Infect, etc.

Finished the league with Riehu's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/397674#online) 4-1:

R1: Shardless BUG 2-1
R2: UR Painter 2-0
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: UB Tezzeret Staxx with Thopther Sword combo & Ensnaring Bridge 1-2
R5: Esper (Death?)blade 2-0

A couple of impressions about the build:

- All is Dust continues to be an all-star; I really prefer 3x copies for all those grindy control/midrange match-ups

- this particular build has a serious lack of good answers against Ensnaring Bridge (which also cost me the game twice vs Tezzeret Staxx. I could fire a Bomb vs it + Academy Ruins on the board to ensure lethal G2, but G1 was lost to the lock as was G3 when he also needled my Bomb :rolleyes: )

- Urborg is a card that must be treated with caution: It came up a few times in this league run that my opponent also benefitted from its effects; as nice as painless tapping is, I don't think it's worth 2 copies since the combo with Eye also doesn't provide colorless mana

- I like MD Thorn less and less. I can't remember a time when I thought "Man, I really want a Thorn now."

- Endbringer is BAD. I don't understand how people are still running it. The times you have the mana to resolve Endbringer and the time to actually get some value out of it are basically Magical Christmasland scenarios.

- Factories perform well as always. I've warmed up for Matter Reshaper and Endless One after initially shying away from them with my GW builds.

Some other things which maybe Riehu can answer:

- How has Sphere of Resistance been for you? Do you bring it in vs creature-based decks as well, like Shardless?

- How have Faeries as your only GY hate been for you so far? This approach seems kinda weak to decks that rely alot on the GY, but without a particular card, like Dredge or KotR.

Where to go from here? I'm considering to play the Legacy Challenge tomorrow, but each build has particular weaknesses that don't sit well with me.
Matter Reshaper is obviously a requirement due to the amount of Shardless in the MTGO meta, as are my beloved Factories. But then again, I miss my Displacers - not playing them feels like having a blind spot against alot of random unfair crap. I can't really find evidence that it has been done before, but:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/clashofclans/images/c/ce/Why_not_both%3F.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130824200436

If the deck only runs a couple of Displacers instead of going deep into white, it becomes significantly easier on the mana and still allows us to run Factories:

Displacers Matter.dec

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
9 slots up to debate (I still want at least some outs against Blood Moon & Ensnaring Bridge and appropriate GY hate; maybe some Sphere effects as well)

Maybe I'll shelve another land (4th Factory, 3rd Eye or the last Urborg are candidates) for another white source in form of Cave of Koilos (or Brushland for SB World Breaker - I like that idea very much; should be doable with 8 green sources total) to support Displacer better, depending on how the manabase works with 9 white sources pre-board. Displacer is another cheap beater to bring in for even more early aggression alongside Factory instead of Endbringer lategame shenanigans. T1 Eye + Mimic/Endless One + Petal into Displacer are at least 5 power on the board T1 since Displacer can actually be played of Petal, unlike Matter Reshaper with Guides/Petal.

Thoughts about the new build and SB considerations?

Placeholder for a much more analytical response, but i LOVE the idea of Reshaper plus Displacer now. I still think Mox Diamond is where we want to be over SSG in that variant, but Petal is probably good enough with no intent to go deep on Color via TD, RiP or CPriest.

Barook
04-08-2016, 06:03 PM
4-1'ed with my Displayers Matter list, playing with 2 Brushlands and 4 Leylines + 2 Sphere of Resistance in the board. While I got somewhat lucky in the beginning regarding topdecks and two misplays of my opponents, I think the list hold up pretty well.

R1: GBWr Nic Fit (2-0; opponent couldn't into combat math and conceded while I was dead on board G1)
R2: 4C Loam 2-0 (posted above)
R3: UW Landstill 2-0 (quite the grindy games; opponent fucked up G2, missing his Decree of Justice token trigger. Thanks, MODO!)
R4: Sneak & Show 1-2 (Lost to one of my best match-ups out of all things. :rolleyes: Kept supbar hands G2 & G3 because I got too overconfident/greedy and was punished accordingly. Oh well... )
R5: ANT 2-0 (Sphere really hinders my gameplan, going to be Thorn again next time)

Overall, the performance so far was satisfying. I'm only mad that I basically threw R4 away. Could have been a 5-0 otherwise. I'll try the same list again, except with Thorns instead of Spheres.

iostream
04-08-2016, 06:36 PM
4-1'ed with my Displayers Matter list, playing with 2 Brushlands and 4 Leylines + 2 Sphere of Resistance in the board. While I got somewhat lucky in the beginning regarding topdecks and two misplays of my opponents, I think the list hold up pretty well.

R1: GBWr Nic Fit (2-0; opponent couldn't into combat math and conceded while I was dead on board G1)
R2: 4C Loam 2-0 (posted above)
R3: UW Landstill 2-0 (quite the grindy games; opponent fucked up G2, missing his Decree of Justice token trigger. Thanks, MODO!)
R4: Sneak & Show 1-2 (Lost to one of my best match-ups out of all things. :rolleyes: Kept supbar hands G2 & G3 because I got too overconfident/greedy and was punished accordingly. Oh well... )
R5: ANT 2-0 (Sphere really hinders my gameplan, going to be Thorn again next time)

Overall, the performance so far was satisfying. I'm only mad that I basically threw R4 away. Could have been a 5-0 otherwise. I'll try the same list again, except with Thorns instead of Spheres.Any opinions about going Urborg-less? It's a one-of that I think is pretty important to give yourself an out when you happen to keep a double-Tomb hand against aggressive decks. But it might be too niche of a situation to care about.

Barook
04-08-2016, 08:04 PM
Any opinions about going Urborg-less? It's a one-of that I think is pretty important to give yourself an out when you happen to keep a double-Tomb hand against aggressive decks. But it might be too niche of a situation to care about.
As I've written before, Urborg can also help out your opponent. It's nice to have sometimes, but I want to find out if I run enough colored sources for Displacer (and World Breaker, for the matter). I have the impression that it's too gimmicky.

Started another league run. Went 5-0, clean 10-0 run. Holy shit. But to be fair, I got the match-ups handed on a silver plate:

R1: Burn 2-0
R2: Storm (TES) 2-0
R3: Storm (ANT) 2-0
R4: Storm (ANT) 2-0
R5: Sneak & Show 2-0

Before people ask: I've never drawn Displacer in the Storm match-ups, so I would have never had the MD Thorns anyway that I cut for it. Displacer wasn't relevant vs Sneak & Show this time due to T1 Mentor shenanigans, forcing it to be on chumpblock duty to get rid of Mentor. What's the deal Sneak packing SB Mentors nowadays? That's annoying as fuck and saw it in both matches.

So far, the list is 9-1 in matches (could have been 10-0 if I hadn't fucked up), but it's too early to tell if the list is the real deal due to the amount of unusual match-ups that I got. On the plus side, I have now enough Play Points to join the Legacy Challenge tomorrow without spending Tix - assuming I'm not too tired to join. :laugh:

RhoxWarMonk
04-08-2016, 08:28 PM
As I've written before, Urborg can also help out your opponent. It's nice to have sometimes, but I want to find out if I run enough colored sources for Displacer (and World Breaker, for the matter). I have the impression that it's too gimmicky.

Started another league run. Went 5-0, clean 10-0 run. Holy shit. But to be fair, I got the match-ups handed on a silver plate:

R1: Burn 2-0
R2: Storm (TES) 2-0
R3: Storm (ANT) 2-0
R4: Storm (ANT) 2-0
R5: Sneak & Show 2-0

Before people ask: I've never drawn Displacer in the Storm match-ups, so I would have never had the MD Thorns anyway that I cut for it. Displacer wasn't relevant vs Sneak & Show this time due to T1 Mentor shenanigans, forcing it to be on chumpblock duty to get rid of Mentor. What's the deal Sneak packing SB Mentors nowadays? That's annoying as fuck and saw it in both matches.

So far, the list is 9-1 in matches (could have been 10-0 if I hadn't fucked up), but it's too early to tell if the list is the real deal due to the amount of unusual match-ups that I got. On the plus side, I have now enough Play Points to join the Legacy Challenge tomorrow without spending Tix - assuming I'm not too tired to join. :laugh:

Sorry if I missed it Barook but was this the list you played?

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Congrats on your finish as well, 5-0 is impressive regardless of the matchup. Was there any problems casting Displacers with so little white sources?

Barook
04-08-2016, 08:40 PM
No, the list is slightly different in the manabase:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Brushland
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 World Breaker

Displacer mana has only come up once in those 10 match-ups, but that was more the fault of me totally manascrewed anyway and I still won that game in the end. I'm not too concerned about white mana at the moment.

About Storm with no MD Thorns: I'm 4-0 in matches and 8-0 in games with the current list. Even without Thorns, the MD is more than good enough against them and after boarding, it gets really ugly once they have to deal with Leylines, Thorns and the additional Wail as well.

Finn
04-08-2016, 10:06 PM
Barook, with Dismember and Leyline of the Void it seems to me that the Brushlands should be Caves of Koilos. Just in case.

Barook
04-08-2016, 10:13 PM
Barook, with Dismember and Leyline of the Void it seems to me that the Brushlands should be Caves of Koilos. Just in case.
Not really, I just forgot to write down World Breaker. Otherwise, it would have been a 13 card board. My bad.

eldrazimenace777
04-09-2016, 05:12 AM
Looking to play this list thoughts please.
4 thought knot
4 endless one
4 mimic
4 matter reshaper
4 reality smasher
2 revoker
1 endbringer
4 eye
4 city
4 tomb
4 temple
4 wasteland
4 cavern
1 urborg
2 jitte
4 chalice
4 thorn
2 wail
1 dismember

Sb: 2 all is dust
2 dismember
2 crucible of world's
2 sphere of resistance
2 Graf diggers cage
2 winter orb
2 trinisphere
1 null rod

caprino
04-09-2016, 06:50 AM
No, the list is slightly different in the manabase:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Brushland
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 World Breaker

Displacer mana has only come up once in those 10 match-ups, but that was more the fault of me totally manascrewed anyway and I still won that game in the end. I'm not too concerned about white mana at the moment.

About Storm with no MD Thorns: I'm 4-0 in matches and 8-0 in games with the current list. Even without Thorns, the MD is more than good enough against them and after boarding, it gets really ugly once they have to deal with Leylines, Thorns and the additional Wail as well.

matchup vs bug and team america is difficult?

(nameless one)
04-09-2016, 07:05 AM
I keep seeing the white lists. What advantages does it have over the colorless lists?

And how is the white list better than Death and Taxes?

Barook
04-09-2016, 07:16 AM
I keep seeing the white lists. What advantages does it have over the colorless lists?

And how is the white list better than Death and Taxes?
White runs Displacer, which owns: Infect, Fatties (Emrakul and Griselbrand are probably the most notable ones), equipment, tokens, etc. - a bunch of things the colorless list has problems with.

@caprino: I don't get the question. I've posted my match-ups so far and none of them were BUG decks.

caprino
04-09-2016, 10:45 AM
White runs Displacer, which owns: Infect, Fatties (Emrakul and Griselbrand are probably the most notable ones), equipment, tokens, etc. - a bunch of things the colorless list has problems with.

@caprino: I don't get the question. I've posted my match-ups so far and none of them were BUG decks.

I explain how to do the side and out side in against miracle,ant,bug,sneak attack,omnitell,rug dever,death and taxes,elf,burn.. thanks

darkgh0st
04-09-2016, 12:08 PM
how is the white list better than Death and Taxes?

I don't play DnT but from what I am hearing is that DnT stuggle with the Miracles MU and is dependent on resolving Cataclysm post-board. White Eldrazi has a very good MU against Miracles still. Eye of Ugin mid-late game just lets you cast one threat after another.

Barook
04-09-2016, 02:17 PM
I entered the Legacy Challenge and will keep this post updated with my progress:

R1: UW Standstill 2-0 (1-0 in matches)
R2: Mono-W D&T 2-1 (2-0 in matches) (I was completely overrun G2 by a nutdraw including T4 Crusader Jitte swing while being light on mana)
R3: Chaos Elves (3-0 in matches) piloted by Julian23 (Chalice isn't as strong when they have Cavern, but won anyway)
R4: Eldrazi Stompy 2-1 (4-0 in matches) (colorless; I hate diceroll match-ups, especially if I lose the roll G1 - still managed to win G2 and G3)
R5: Reanimator 2-1 (5-0 in matches) (lost G1 due to T1 Griselbrand beats and I was several turns 1 mana away from winning despite of that. G3 I won vs an early Grave Titan with Displacer shenanigans somehow - having to flicker Titan multiple times was a really ugly thing to do, but in the end, it worked out)
R6: Mentor Miracles 0-2 (5-1 in matches) (had lethal on board and the after countering his first Terminus, the only way he could have gotten out of this if he had a second Terminus on top - and of course he had it. :rolleyes: G2 was a nongame due to 7 lander into 6 nolander into mediocre 5 card hand into mana screw. :rolleyes: )
R7: Shardless BUG 2-0 by Lejay (the last thing I wanted to face; G1 I topdeck one and play tripple (!) Mimic. Combined with a Reality Smasher, his 3/4 Goyf is no match for my onslaught. G2 was also aggressive, in the end he ran out of gas and despite playing StP on World Breaker :eyebrow:, Matter Reshaper and a new 8/8 Endless One got the job done)


I explain how to do the side and out side in against miracle,ant,bug,sneak attack,omnitell,rug dever,death and taxes,elf,burn.. thanks
I need to playtest first before making any comments first, since sideboarding is not exactly my forte.


I don't play DnT but from what I am hearing is that DnT stuggle with the Miracles MU and is dependent on resolving Cataclysm post-board. White Eldrazi has a very good MU against Miracles still. Eye of Ugin mid-late game just lets you cast one threat after another.
Eldrazi is way more favored vs Miracles (depends on both builds) and heavily favored vs Storm. Elves aren't as abyssal as for D&T, with Chalice being MVP here, TKS being close second.

caprino
04-09-2016, 02:57 PM
No, the list is slightly different in the manabase:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Brushland
2 Karakas

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Displacer
3 All is Dust
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 World Breaker

Displacer mana has only come up once in those 10 match-ups, but that was more the fault of me totally manascrewed anyway and I still won that game in the end. I'm not too concerned about white mana at the moment.

About Storm with no MD Thorns: I'm 4-0 in matches and 8-0 in games with the current list. Even without Thorns, the MD is more than good enough against them and after boarding, it gets really ugly once they have to deal with Leylines, Thorns and the additional Wail as well.
Land you play is correct? Brushland right? Mana Black for dismember?

Eldariel
04-09-2016, 03:06 PM
Land you play is correct? Brushland right? Mana Black for dismember?

It's for the Worldbreaker on the sideboard.

Barook
04-09-2016, 04:32 PM
3-0 so far (see post on the previous post). List keeps working like a charm.

R3 was against Julian23 on Chaos Elves. G1 highlight was swinging with TKS, Displacer and 3 Mimics against a board of chump blockers (he was on 3 life and had to block), I flickered my TKS after blocks, pumping my Mimics and wiped his board. :laugh:

iostream
04-09-2016, 07:21 PM
Split the finals of a small Legacy GPT locally with a list very close to what has been discussed here. I ran 2 Displacers, 4 Reshapers, 4 Factories, 0 Wasteland. I think this minimal splash is definitely the strongest version of the deck I've tried so far. Displacer was key in several matches. Definitely would not have taken the tournament down without it.

RhoxWarMonk
04-09-2016, 07:25 PM
Split the finals of a small Legacy GPT locally with a list very close to what has been discussed here. I ran 2 Displacers, 4 Reshapers, 4 Factories, 0 Wasteland. I think this minimal splash is definitely the strongest version of the deck I've tried so far. Displacer was key in several matches. Definitely would not have taken the tournament down without it.

Congrats on your finish! Ive been testing a very similar version too based on Barook's list a few pages back (2 Displacers, 4 Reshapers, 3 Factories but considering moving to a 4th instead of an Urborg).

Can you post your decklist please? What did you have in your SB and did you run Lotus Petals?

iostream
04-09-2016, 07:50 PM
Congrats on your finish! Ive been testing a very similar version too based on Barook's list a few pages back (2 Displacers, 4 Reshapers, 3 Factories but considering moving to a 4th instead of an Urborg).

Can you post your decklist please? What did you have in your SB and did you run Lotus Petals?Certainly!

2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lotus Petal

2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tendo Ice Bridge

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Trinisphere
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
4 Leyline of the Void

9 sources for the two Displacers seemed more or less adequate. As I expected, I occasionally had them stuck in hand due to lack of mana, but they are not the best early play anyway. It is much better to be able to play it last, when you already have a board presence, to falter some of their creatures in order to provide some reach. In several games, Displacer was used in this fashion - uncastable early, game winning once the white source was found.

My ideas about the sideboard are basically that none of the sweepers are any good; your plan in the grindy matchups is to be the aggressor, don't over-sideboard, and don't keep hands that lack serious aggressive potential. Mishra's Factory plays an important role in this plan. I beat D+T in this fashion during the tournament.

The only card that seemed kind of bad was Pithing Needle. It never does enough versus the equipment decks; I suspect one might just want to run the much narrower Null Rod and hope to fade the Lands matchup. Nothing I have tried has ever fixed that matchup anyway.

Barook
04-09-2016, 08:04 PM
Took down Lejay on Shardless in the final round. :eek:

6-1 after 7 rounds with my new list in the Legacy challenge - Top 8 incoming!

I agree with the posters above - Displacers + Matter Reshaper is insane! Since they cover the weakness each other's list had, the result is extremely strong (although I prefer at least 3 Displacers with a 4th one as SB option.) 15-2 with the list in leagues + Challenge so far.

iostream
04-09-2016, 08:11 PM
Yeah, it's been a fun ride figuring out what the deck is supposed to be doing, but I think we've finally come across something that feels "really correct". The sideboard still needs work, IMO.

darkgh0st
04-09-2016, 08:28 PM
The current number is 4 Reshaper, 2 Displacer. Is that the right split? Or should it be 4/3 or 3/3?

EDIT: Congratz on such a great record Barook!

metronome2charisma
04-09-2016, 08:40 PM
Got 9th on breakers at tales today for the 1k . went 3-2.

rd 1 miracles . . He played MD moat, ruination and wear/tear. I lost game 1 . Game two he brings in another moat another wear/tear and 2 blood moon. he takes game 2. this was almost un-winable , by far the best miracles build I've played against.( he was also first seed going into top 8) ( 0-1)

rd 2 shardless He wins the roll, plays death rite .I play a chalice on 1 .He hymns ,gets my city of traitors hymns next turn and 2 ancestral visions bury me. Game 2 much of the same except hymn lilly and goyf get it done. (0-2)

rd 3 reanimator . I win the roll chalice on 1 he plays a brainstrom to check if i miss my trigger , i don't ,i see underground sea basic swamp and brainstorm before killing him. Game 2 i assume he's on some sort of reanimator i board in 4 leyline of the void its in my opener ,i win .(1-2)

rd4 metalworkerstax he makes 10 mana on turn three plays a forge master and lodestone golem attacks with a blight steel next turn . i have a mimic,mimic tks,smasher draw, mimics and revokers get there after i warping wail his metalworker. (2-2)

rd5 foodchain . He wins the roll, combos off on turn three .I take game 2 on the back of trinisphere, mimic endless one .endless one. I take game three with chalice on 1 into thorn into tks,smasher and endless one. (3-2)

Really wanna try the helm combo version maybe with 2 displacer. Deck was great all day . I could have played better especially rd 2 but overall i was happy with todays performance and the deck itself. Finding a good answer to moat/ blood moon is still on my agenda .
My list for reference..

4 eldrazi mimic
4 thought knot seer
4 reality smasher
4 matter reshaper
3 endless one
2 spirit guide
1 phyrexian revoker
2 endbringerr
1 phyrexian metamorph

4 chalice of the void
2 trinisphere
1 jitte
1 dismember
2 warping wail
10

4 tomb
4 eldrazi temple
3 eye of gin
3 city of traitors
3 cavern of souls
3 mishras factory
2 ghost quarter
1 waste
1 urborg
1 karakas

sb
4 leyline of the void
2 thorn
1 pithing needle
1 oblivion sower
1 warping wail
1 dismember
2 ratchet bomb
2 phyrexian revoker
1 batterskull

RhoxWarMonk
04-09-2016, 09:00 PM
Certainly!

2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lotus Petal

2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tendo Ice Bridge

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Trinisphere
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
4 Leyline of the Void

9 sources for the two Displacers seemed more or less adequate. As I expected, I occasionally had them stuck in hand due to lack of mana, but they are not the best early play anyway. It is much better to be able to play it last, when you already have a board presence, to falter some of their creatures in order to provide some reach. In several games, Displacer was used in this fashion - uncastable early, game winning once the white source was found.

My ideas about the sideboard are basically that none of the sweepers are any good; your plan in the grindy matchups is to be the aggressor, don't over-sideboard, and don't keep hands that lack serious aggressive potential. Mishra's Factory plays an important role in this plan. I beat D+T in this fashion during the tournament.

The only card that seemed kind of bad was Pithing Needle. It never does enough versus the equipment decks; I suspect one might just want to run the much narrower Null Rod and hope to fade the Lands matchup. Nothing I have tried has ever fixed that matchup anyway.

I like it! Have you missed the Thorns at all? I've been trying to incorporate them into my list (currently -1 Metamorph, -1 Dismember, -1 Tendo Ice Bridge for +1 Lotus Petal, +2 Thorns from your version). I'm also trying the Helm combo in the side, though I'm not sure if that's going to stick long term or not.

Did you miss not having the Urborg at all? I'm torn between 3 Factories/1 Urborg or just going all out on Factories instead.

Again, congrats on your finish! It seems like this is a very solid direction to be going in.

@Barook - good luck in the top 8!!! Great to see you having such success

Barook
04-09-2016, 09:06 PM
Beat Lejay again 2-1. Probably could have won G1 if I had played differently, but 2x Ancestral + active Sylvan Library was just too much in the end. But I like this new, hyperaggressive approach. Leyline did good work G3 to keep slow him down enough.

Top 4 incoming! :cool:

As for the lists, I think it's correct to run more white sources and more Displacers (like I do). Displacer is just such a good card in so many match-ups.

Scott
04-09-2016, 09:20 PM
Finding a good answer to moat/ blood moon is still on my agenda .

I'm not an Eldrazi player so take this interloper's thought with a grain of salt:

Given that the deck's only card selection tool is shut off by Blood Moon, any answer should be a broad one--and relevant to the deck's problem match ups--that you can load up on in the SB, like All Is Dust (or maybe Ratchet Bomb for reasons that include hitting Ensnaring Bridge).

Have you tested All Is Dust, and were you dissatisfied with it?

iostream
04-09-2016, 09:22 PM
I like it! Have you missed the Thorns at all? I've been trying to incorporate them into my list (currently -1 Metamorph, -1 Dismember, -1 Tendo Ice Bridge for +1 Lotus Petal, +2 Thorns from your version). I'm also trying the Helm combo in the side, though I'm not sure if that's going to stick long term or not.

Did you miss not having the Urborg at all? I'm torn between 3 Factories/1 Urborg or just going all out on Factories instead.

Again, congrats on your finish! It seems like this is a very solid direction to be going in.

@Barook - good luck in the top 8!!! Great to see you having such successNah, Thorns are not necessary. The combo matchups are already good enough that you don't need that effect mainboard. The Trinispheres are in the board because they also do work against things like Elves.

The Urborg was a tough cut, but I really wanted to try 4 Factory, and it seemed fine. I compensated by running Contortions instead of extra Dismember in the side, and that actually saved me in one game (where Dismember would have caused me to kill myself).

As for whether it's right to run more white sources, I generally don't feel tempted to. I generally like to build my decks very conservatively, and I don't want to mess with the core of 14 sol lands + 4 Caverns. Those have proven their worth in every version of the deck I've ever tested. Once you add in the Factories, I'm playing as many white sources as I possibly can, and with just 9, it doesn't make sense to run more than 2 Displacer.

Barook
04-09-2016, 09:35 PM
Displacer is such a MVP this tournament.

Opponent rezzed my TKS and then exhumed Tidesprout. I topdeck Displacer, flicker TKS to get it back for me, taking his Ashen Rider from his hand (S&T was his other card) while also drawing a card. That totally annihilated his board position.

Now finals, most likely against the Mentor Miracle guy that I lost to. Time for revenge!

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand won!

All is Dust MVP G3, sweeping his board of Mentor tokens, clearing the path to victory.

CovenantElite30
04-09-2016, 10:31 PM
Displacer is such a MVP this tournament.

Opponent rezzed my TKS and then exhumed Tidesprout. I topdeck Displacer, flicker TKS to get it back for me, taking his Ashen Rider from his hand (S&T was his other card) while also drawing a card. That totally annihilated his board position.

Now finals, most likely against the Mentor Miracle guy that I lost to. Time for revenge!

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand won!

All is Dust MVP G3, sweeping his board of Mentor tokens, clearing the path to victory.
Great job dude!

Can we get a decklist?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

metronome2charisma
04-09-2016, 10:36 PM
I'm not an Eldrazi player so take this interloper's thought with a grain of salt:

Given that the deck's only card selection tool is shut off by Blood Moon, any answer should be a broad one--and relevant to the deck's problem match ups--that you can load up on in the SB, like All Is Dust (or maybe Ratchet Bomb for reasons that include hitting Ensnaring Bridge).

Have you tested All Is Dust, and were you dissatisfied with it?

Ratchet bomb works its just a little slow, and for moat its really slow, I haven't played all is dust but i might give it a shot.

Barook
04-09-2016, 10:36 PM
Same decklist as before (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/398533#online)

Overall, I'm 18-2 with the list now (I think a 20-0 would have been possible if played better/different lines were taken). I think we're done brewing, everybody go home. Displacer/Matter Reshaper is where it's at.

If there's interested, I could record the replays of the matches and upload them on Youtube later. Probably not before next weekend, though, as I have work to do and Dark Souls 3 is coming up. :tongue:

iostream
04-09-2016, 11:01 PM
Ratchet bomb works its just a little slow, and for moat its really slow, I haven't played all is dust but i might give it a shot.All is Dust is basically uncastable in matchups where they disrupt your mana at all, such as D+T or Delver, or in matchups where you need to be able to cast it quickly, such as Elves or TES (when they go for Goblins). Ratchet Bomb evades these restrictions, but it is much weaker and much slower. Neither card is likely to be able to kill a Moat. Ratchet Bomb can't because it gives the Miracles pilot forever-and-a-half to find an answer. All is Dust won't, because any good pilot can see it coming from a mile away and will counter it easily. Even soft countermagic will do the job because it is so darn expensive. I still like Ratchet Bomb better, however. But perhaps a split would be appropriate.

Honestly, both cards are pretty bad, and one major source of my discontent with the development of the deck has been trying to search for reasonable alternatives. You need some kind of effect like it in the 75, though.

Barook
04-09-2016, 11:12 PM
All is Dust is basically uncastable in matchups where they disrupt your mana at all, such as D+T or Delver, or in matchups where you need to be able to cast it quickly, such as Elves or TES (when they go for Goblins). Ratchet Bomb evades these restrictions, but it is much cheaper and much slower. Neither card is likely to be able to kill a Moat. Ratchet Bomb can't because it gives the Miracles pilot forever-and-a-half to find an answer. All is Dust won't, because any good pilot can see it coming from a mile away and will counter it easily. Even soft countermagic will do the job because it is so darn expensive. I still like Ratchet Bomb better, however. But perhaps a split would be appropriate.

Honestly, both cards are pretty bad, and one major source of my discontent with the development of the deck has been trying to search for reasonable alternatives. You need some kind of effect like it in the 75, though.
I disagree on All is Dust. While it can't get rid of Ensnaring Bridge and is way worse vs Pyromancer tokens, it's your best bet to win games vs control or other grindy decks. I had 0 All is Dusts countered today (IIRC) because I either took them with TKS or they ran out of counters due to other stuff.

3x AiD is what you want and definitely the right number. E.g. G2 and G3 of the finals were won of the back of All is Dust wiping out his Mentor army before going ham on his life totals. And my Miracles opponent was certainly no push-over, he was a very strong player.

darkgh0st
04-09-2016, 11:13 PM
Same decklist as before (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/398533#online)

Overall, I'm 18-2 with the list now (I think a 20-0 would have been possible if played better/different lines were taken). I think we're done brewing, everybody go home. Displacer/Matter Reshaper is where it's at.

If there's interested, I could record the replays of the matches and upload them on Youtube later. Probably not before next weekend, though, as I have work to do and Dark Souls 3 is coming up. :tongue:

When is World Breaker relevant (which MUs)? Does it help very much vs Blood Moon?

Barook
04-09-2016, 11:18 PM
When is World Breaker relevant (which MUs)? Does it help very much vs Blood Moon?
Mainly control/midrange. And as an out to Ensnaring Bridge and other problematic permanents.

The only Blood Moon I faced today was in the finals G3 when my opponent was dead on board. All is Dust is more reliable as a Moon killer IF you hit the 7 mana because World Breaker requires a Lotus Petal to be cast under BM. Don't expect it to be a BM killer in this particular setup. All is Dust is.

iostream
04-09-2016, 11:33 PM
I disagree on All is Dust. While it can't get rid of Ensnaring Bridge and is way worse vs Pyromancer tokens, it's your best bet to win games vs control or other grindy decks. I had 0 All is Dusts countered today (IIRC) because I either took them with TKS or they ran out of counters due to other stuff.

3x AiD is what you want and definitely the right number. E.g. G2 and G3 of the finals were won of the back of All is Dust wiping out his Mentor army before going ham on his life totals. And my Miracles opponent was certainly no push-over, he was a very strong player.

Wouldn't Ratchet Bomb have killed the mentor tokens just as well?

I guess maybe the question that is perhaps leading to our disagreement is: in what specific matchups do you actually side in AiD? I consider Bomb to be part of my plan against D+T and Knight of the Reliquary decks, for instance, but in my testing, I can never get AiD through multiple Wastelands/Ports.

Barook
04-09-2016, 11:39 PM
Wouldn't Ratchet Bomb have killed the mentor tokens just as well?

I guess maybe the question that is perhaps leading to our disagreement is: in what specific matchups do you actually side in AiD? I consider Bomb to be part of my plan against D+T and Knight of the Reliquary decks, for instance, but in my testing, I can never get AiD through multiple Wastelands/Ports.
Bomb kills the source of the tokens, Mentor, as well. Otherwise, they would continue to shit out more tokens the turns after. That's why AiD is vastly superior against Mentor. Tabula rasa.

All is Dust is definitely a must vs Miracles and Shardless post-board. I sometimes use it as PW removal, too, like killing a Liliana in the Challenge. For other matches, I need to reevaluate it for the new list.

In older lists, I've successfully swept the board against KotR decks, though. It depends alot on their draw, though.

darkgh0st
04-09-2016, 11:53 PM
Mainly control/midrange. And as an out to Ensnaring Bridge and other problematic permanents.

The only Blood Moon I faced today was in the finals G3 when my opponent was dead on board. All is Dust is more reliable as a Moon killer IF you hit the 7 mana because World Breaker requires a Lotus Petal to be cast under BM. Don't expect it to be a BM killer in this particular setup. All is Dust is.

Would NUlamog better suit this slot? Needing 3 extra mana but not needing a color.

Barook
04-09-2016, 11:59 PM
Would NUlamog better suit this slot? Needing 3 extra mana but not needing a color.
NUlamog is uncastable unless you enter Magical Christmasland. 7 mana for World Breaker is the threshold that is still acceptable. Colored mana is hardly the problem with my current version. 9 green sources (except under Blood Moon) are plenty for the time you can cast Breaker.

I'm very satisfied with the current list and wouldn't change a single card. Everything pulled its weight at some point in the tournament.

Edit: For those interested, both Reanimator match-ups were streamed:

https://www.twitch.tv/efil4zaknupome/v/59561609

First match starts at 4:00:10, semi finals at 7:26:00.

Edit #2: Watching the games now with outside commentary, I did kind of a subpar job against Grave Titan. What the hell was I thinking? Even with tons of mana for 3 activations incoming.

MD.Ghost
04-10-2016, 01:45 AM
EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand won!


Congratz! Great Run! :cool:

Tested the same Main the last Days and it worked very good so far.


Ratchet bomb works its just a little slow, and for moat its really slow, I haven't played all is dust but i might give it a shot.
+

All is Dust is basically uncastable in matchups where they disrupt your mana at all, such as D+T or Delver, or in matchups where you need to be able to cast it quickly, such as Elves or TES (when they go for Goblins). Ratchet Bomb evades these restrictions, but it is much weaker and much slower. Neither card is likely to be able to kill a Moat. Ratchet Bomb can't because it gives the Miracles pilot forever-and-a-half to find an answer. All is Dust won't, because any good pilot can see it coming from a mile away and will counter it easily. Even soft countermagic will do the job because it is so darn expensive. I still like Ratchet Bomb better, however. But perhaps a split would be appropriate.

Honestly, both cards are pretty bad, and one major source of my discontent with the development of the deck has been trying to search for reasonable alternatives. You need some kind of effect like it in the 75, though.

I run a slightly different Side than Barook:

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Wastes
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Warping Wail
SB: 1 World Breaker

Still give bomb a chance, simply because it can be faster than All is Dust sometimes and can be triggert with Reshaper. While Bomb can shine vs Tokens (TES/ANT/Belcher), All is Dust is key vs Midrange and Control: Shardless/Miracle. So both are not bad and work well together, sometimes they overlap sometimes one is stronger.

I disagree that All is Dust is uncastable vs DnT, my score is 70:30 regardless the Eldrazi Version i play, DnT can be a nightmare, but only if the have nut draws with Vial and heavy Mana Disruption (and are on the play). I cast All is Dust often enough and wiped the field. Against Elves you need more Time/Disruption, Chalice + Wail for example. With Petal All is Dust can happen Turn 3 if you are lucky, so its not "that slow" with a combination of Eldrazi/Sollands.


I disagree on All is Dust. While it can't get rid of Ensnaring Bridge and is way worse vs Pyromancer tokens, it's your best bet to win games vs control or other grindy decks. I had 0 All is Dusts countered today (IIRC) because I either took them with TKS or they ran out of counters due to other stuff.

3x AiD is what you want and definitely the right number. E.g. G2 and G3 of the finals were won of the back of All is Dust wiping out his Mentor army before going ham on his life totals. And my Miracles opponent was certainly no push-over, he was a very strong player.

Agree that All is Dust is a very good card and bonkers vs miracles. Still not sold about the 3rd Copy, but i basically included the card in every Eldrazi shell i tested. Its even better if you have a stable manabasis like the current Version (Barooks Build) with Mishra over Wasteland, only 2 Cities (to avoid self-landkills) and Petals for Speed. All is Dust simply gets weaker if you also play a (more common) greedy Manabasis with Wastelands and more Cities. It is still doable, but a harder task - thats why some players struggled with All is Dust in the past.

Trust me (and of course Barook), you will need that card vs Miracle after G1 (and don't mix it with Thorns - its a trap)

Riehu
04-10-2016, 02:30 AM
Same decklist as before (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/398533#online)

Overall, I'm 18-2 with the list now (I think a 20-0 would have been possible if played better/different lines were taken). I think we're done brewing, everybody go home. Displacer/Matter Reshaper is where it's at.

If there's interested, I could record the replays of the matches and upload them on Youtube later. Probably not before next weekend, though, as I have work to do and Dark Souls 3 is coming up. :tongue:

Awesome Barook! Definitely interested in the matches.

Barook
04-10-2016, 02:35 AM
Awesome Barook! Definitely interested in the matches.
Recording matches is up to the air because MTGO is a "quality" program. It doesn't let me access any matches aside from the finals right now. :rolleyes:

RhoxWarMonk
04-10-2016, 03:43 AM
NUlamog is uncastable unless you enter Magical Christmasland. 7 mana for World Breaker is the threshold that is still acceptable. Colored mana is hardly the problem with my current version. 9 green sources (except under Blood Moon) are plenty for the time you can cast Breaker.

I'm very satisfied with the current list and wouldn't change a single card. Everything pulled its weight at some point in the tournament.

Edit: For those interested, both Reanimator match-ups were streamed:

https://www.twitch.tv/efil4zaknupome/v/59561609

First match starts at 4:00:10, semi finals at 7:26:00.

Edit #2: Watching the games now with outside commentary, I did kind of a subpar job against Grave Titan. What the hell was I thinking? Even with tons of mana for 3 activations incoming.

Just finished watching the reanimator matchup, my god man that was a savage top deck at the end with Displacer to get back your TKS and take out his Ashen Rider :laugh: Great job on the tournament and congrats!!

Riehu
04-10-2016, 05:14 AM
Certainly!

2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lotus Petal

2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tendo Ice Bridge

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Trinisphere
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
4 Leyline of the Void

9 sources for the two Displacers seemed more or less adequate. As I expected, I occasionally had them stuck in hand due to lack of mana, but they are not the best early play anyway. It is much better to be able to play it last, when you already have a board presence, to falter some of their creatures in order to provide some reach. In several games, Displacer was used in this fashion - uncastable early, game winning once the white source was found.

My ideas about the sideboard are basically that none of the sweepers are any good; your plan in the grindy matchups is to be the aggressor, don't over-sideboard, and don't keep hands that lack serious aggressive potential. Mishra's Factory plays an important role in this plan. I beat D+T in this fashion during the tournament.

The only card that seemed kind of bad was Pithing Needle. It never does enough versus the equipment decks; I suspect one might just want to run the much narrower Null Rod and hope to fade the Lands matchup. Nothing I have tried has ever fixed that matchup anyway.

Congrats to you too! I'd like to hear a bit more about the SB plan with your SB.

Riehu
04-10-2016, 06:34 AM
I've been playing colorless version for the past 3 leagues going 4-1, 5-0 and 4-1. The first 4-1 should have been 5-0 most likely as I made a big mistake against RUG delver losing my Mishra to Nimble Mongoose.

League mono 4-1
BUG delver 2-0
Food Chain Wasteland MVP to slow down
RUG delver 1-2
Shardless 2-1 All is dust MVP
Food Chain 2-1

League mono 5-0

Miracles 2-0
UWRG Delver 2-1
Mirror 2-0
Epic Storm 2-1
Burn 2-0

League mono 4-1

RUG 2-1
Elves 0-2
Painter 2-1
Burn 2-1
UWB Reanimator 2-0


4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warping Wail
2 Endbringer
3 All Is Dust
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb


I've been actually very happy with the Thorns again (and feel like 2 is a good number, surely not 4) as they have surely slowed down opponents library manipulation. Wasteland I have liked as well, it has helped to slow down opponents as well. Earlier I might have been too aggressive with the Wasteland losing my own aggressiveness by not deploying more threats first so it might be that my skills haven't been where they should be. Occasionally Wasteland + Thorn is obviously very good. Also I have not missed Urborg.

Phyrexian Metamorph has been only ok so that is definitely flexible slot depending on meta and as a prove to my inexperience with the interactions I though Metamorph could copy a creature that is put into play by Show&Tell :P Will try something else there next time.

About sideboard:

All Is Dust has still been great. Ratchet Bomb has been borderline as for the token match ups I have had my chalice on board as well so using it for zero is not the best thing you can do but sometimes have to do. I think colorless still needs Ratchet as a catch all answer to lots of stuff like Ensnaring Bridge as discussed before. Leylines are very good where they need to be.

With this list I most likely sideboard as follows, at least in general (hopefully I can get some advise here). The order of the match ups and the deck lists we are supposedly facing is based on http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online I've left this intentionally without my reasoning for each choice to get some objective advise first.

Miracles:

- 2 jitte, -2 metamorph, -4 reshaper
+2 ratchet, +2 wail, +2 all is dust, +2 endbringer


Mirror:

- 4 chalice, -2 thorn
+2 Endbringer, +2 ratchet, +2 needle


Shardless:

On the play
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph
+3 all is dust, +1 warping wail, +2 endbringer

On the draw
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph, -1 endless one
+3 all is dust, +2 warping wail, +2 endbringer


4c Delver:

-4 mimic, -2 metamorph, -2 dismember, -1 endless one
+2 endbringer, +2 wail, +2 needle, +3 all is dust


Burn:

-2 dismember, -2 metamorph
+2 ratchet bomb, +2 warping wail


Deathblade:

-4 cotv, -2 dismember, -2 reshaper
+3 all is dust, +2 endbringer, +2 needle, +1 wail


ANT:

-2 jitte, -4 reshaper, -2 dismember
+4 leyline, +2 ratchet, +2 wail


Reanimator:

-2 jitte, -4 reshaper, -2 endless one
+4 leyline, +2 wail, +2 endbringer


Death&Taxes:

On the play
-2 thorn, -2 wail, -1 mimic
+3 all is dust, +2 endbringer

On the draw
- 4 cotv, -2 thorn, -2 wail
+3 all is dust, +2 needle, +3 endbringer


Lands:

-2 jitte, -2 dismember, -4 reshaper
+4 leyline, +2 needle, +2 endbringer


Sneak&Show:

-2 jitte, -2 dismember, -2 reshaper
+2 wail, +2 endbringer, +2 needle


BUG Delver:

On the play
-2 metamorph, -1 endless one
+3 all is dust

On the draw
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph, -3 mimic
+3 all is dust, +2 warping wail, +2 endbringer, +2 needle


Hopefully this gets sideboarding discussion going :)

Barook
04-10-2016, 06:38 AM
Just finished watching the reanimator matchup, my god man that was a savage top deck at the end with Displacer to get back your TKS and take out his Ashen Rider :laugh: Great job on the tournament and congrats!!
That was my favorite moment of the tournament. It's a shame the archived video doesn't have sound anymore. It's so much more hilarious with it. IIRC, it was something like this:

"Well, I guess I could take 6."
*play Displacer*
"That's all you got?"
*activate Displacer*
"I guess targeting Thought-Knot Seer is pretty good."
*the moment the horribly realization kicks in when TKS enters my side of the board, resulting in a 4-card swing and him being dead on board now*
"Shit! FUCK!"

:laugh:

I really hope I can watch all of my replays at some point because there were a couple of really sweet plays and games in it.

@Riehu: Sideboarding really isn't my forte, so don't expect too much of it. What exactly do you want to know?

Riehu
04-10-2016, 06:44 AM
That was my favorite moment of the tournament. It's a shame the archived video doesn't have sound anymore. It's so much more hilarious with it. IIRC, it was something like this:

"Well, I guess I could take 6."
*play Displacer*
"That's all you got?"
*activate Displacer*
"I guess targeting Thought-Knot Seer is pretty good."
*the moment the horribly realization kicks in when TKS enters my side of the board, resulting in a 4-card swing and him being dead on board now*
"Shit! FUCK!"

:laugh:

I really hope I can watch all of my replays at some point because there were a couple of really sweet plays and games in it.

@Riehu: Sideboarding really isn't my forte, so don't expect too much of it. What exactly do you want to know?

It's not mine either so I'd like to just finally start that conversation in general to see what I have missed :)

metronome2charisma
04-10-2016, 07:12 AM
I've been playing colorless version for the past 3 leagues going 4-1, 5-0 and 4-1. The first 4-1 should have been 5-0 most likely as I made a big mistake against RUG delver losing my Mishra to Nimble Mongoose.

League mono 4-1
BUG delver 2-0
Food Chain Wasteland MVP to slow down
RUG delver 1-2
Shardless 2-1 All is dust MVP
Food Chain 2-1

League mono 5-0

Miracles 2-0
UWRG Delver 2-1
Mirror 2-0
Epic Storm 2-1
Burn 2-0

League mono 4-1

RUG 2-1
Elves 0-2
Painter 2-1
Burn 2-1
UWB Reanimator 2-0


4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warping Wail
2 Endbringer
3 All Is Dust
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb


I've been actually very happy with the Thorns again (and feel like 2 is a good number, surely not 4) as they have surely slowed down opponents library manipulation. Wasteland I have liked as well, it has helped to slow down opponents as well. Earlier I might have been too aggressive with the Wasteland losing my own aggressiveness by not deploying more threats first so it might be that my skills haven't been where they should be. Occasionally Wasteland + Thorn is obviously very good. Also I have not missed Urborg.

Phyrexian Metamorph has been only ok so that is definitely flexible slot depending on meta and as a prove to my inexperience with the interactions I though Metamorph could copy a creature that is put into play by Show&Tell :P Will try something else there next time.

About sideboard:

All Is Dust has still been great. Ratchet Bomb has been borderline as for the token match ups I have had my chalice on board as well so using it for zero is not the best thing you can do but sometimes have to do. I think colorless still needs Ratchet as a catch all answer to lots of stuff like Ensnaring Bridge as discussed before. Leylines are very good where they need to be.

With this list I most likely sideboard as follows, at least in general (hopefully I can get some advise here). The order of the match ups and the deck lists we are supposedly facing is based on http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online I've left this intentionally without my reasoning for each choice to get some objective advise first.

Miracles:

- 2 jitte, -2 metamorph, -4 reshaper
+2 ratchet, +2 wail, +2 all is dust, +2 endbringer


Mirror:

- 4 chalice, -2 thorn
+2 Endbringer, +2 ratchet, +2 needle


Shardless:

On the play
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph
+3 all is dust, +1 warping wail, +2 endbringer

On the draw
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph, -1 endless one
+3 all is dust, +2 warping wail, +2 endbringer


4c Delver:

-4 mimic, -2 metamorph, -2 dismember, -1 endless one
+2 endbringer, +2 wail, +2 needle, +3 all is dust


Burn:

-2 dismember, -2 metamorph
+2 ratchet bomb, +2 warping wail


Deathblade:

-4 cotv, -2 dismember, -2 reshaper
+3 all is dust, +2 endbringer, +2 needle, +1 wail


ANT:

-2 jitte, -4 reshaper, -2 dismember
+4 leyline, +2 ratchet, +2 wail


Reanimator:

-2 jitte, -4 reshaper, -2 endless one
+4 leyline, +2 wail, +2 endbringer


Death&Taxes:

On the play
-2 thorn, -2 wail, -1 mimic
+3 all is dust, +2 endbringer

On the draw
- 4 cotv, -2 thorn, -2 wail
+3 all is dust, +2 needle, +3 endbringer


Lands:

-2 jitte, -2 dismember, -4 reshaper
+4 leyline, +2 needle, +2 endbringer


Sneak&Show:

-2 jitte, -2 dismember, -2 reshaper
+2 wail, +2 endbringer, +2 needle


BUG Delver:

On the play
-2 metamorph, -1 endless one
+3 all is dust

On the draw
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph, -3 mimic
+3 all is dust, +2 warping wail, +2 endbringer, +2 needle


Hopefully this gets sideboarding discussion going :).

Mimic and matter reshaper is generally where i start. (besides when chalice and trinisphere are the obvious cuts) am i just doing it wrong? i tend to keep my metamprphs in against anything playing goyf just because it allows me to copy the goyf, again maybe i'm doing it wrong but then again i'm not playing 3 all is dust so ....i'm gunna give all is dust a try. Over all i really like your approach and tend to agree with your ins/outs. The one other question i have is why needle over revokers in the board?

Barook
04-10-2016, 08:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3F76szrptg

My match vs Julian R3.

Julian23
04-10-2016, 08:47 AM
Yeah about those 4 Containment Priest. As I mentioned on Twitter, I confused your list with Overvoltage's.

Good Games.

caprino
04-10-2016, 09:07 AM
I've been playing colorless version for the past 3 leagues going 4-1, 5-0 and 4-1. The first 4-1 should have been 5-0 most likely as I made a big mistake against RUG delver losing my Mishra to Nimble Mongoose.

League mono 4-1
BUG delver 2-0
Food Chain Wasteland MVP to slow down
RUG delver 1-2
Shardless 2-1 All is dust MVP
Food Chain 2-1

League mono 5-0

Miracles 2-0
UWRG Delver 2-1
Mirror 2-0
Epic Storm 2-1
Burn 2-0

League mono 4-1

RUG 2-1
Elves 0-2
Painter 2-1
Burn 2-1
UWB Reanimator 2-0


4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warping Wail
2 Endbringer
3 All Is Dust
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb


I've been actually very happy with the Thorns again (and feel like 2 is a good number, surely not 4) as they have surely slowed down opponents library manipulation. Wasteland I have liked as well, it has helped to slow down opponents as well. Earlier I might have been too aggressive with the Wasteland losing my own aggressiveness by not deploying more threats first so it might be that my skills haven't been where they should be. Occasionally Wasteland + Thorn is obviously very good. Also I have not missed Urborg.

Phyrexian Metamorph has been only ok so that is definitely flexible slot depending on meta and as a prove to my inexperience with the interactions I though Metamorph could copy a creature that is put into play by Show&Tell :P Will try something else there next time.

About sideboard:

All Is Dust has still been great. Ratchet Bomb has been borderline as for the token match ups I have had my chalice on board as well so using it for zero is not the best thing you can do but sometimes have to do. I think colorless still needs Ratchet as a catch all answer to lots of stuff like Ensnaring Bridge as discussed before. Leylines are very good where they need to be.

With this list I most likely sideboard as follows, at least in general (hopefully I can get some advise here). The order of the match ups and the deck lists we are supposedly facing is based on http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online I've left this intentionally without my reasoning for each choice to get some objective advise first.

Miracles:

- 2 jitte, -2 metamorph, -4 reshaper
+2 ratchet, +2 wail, +2 all is dust, +2 endbringer


Mirror:

- 4 chalice, -2 thorn
+2 Endbringer, +2 ratchet, +2 needle


Shardless:

On the play
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph
+3 all is dust, +1 warping wail, +2 endbringer

On the draw
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph, -1 endless one
+3 all is dust, +2 warping wail, +2 endbringer


4c Delver:

-4 mimic, -2 metamorph, -2 dismember, -1 endless one
+2 endbringer, +2 wail, +2 needle, +3 all is dust


Burn:

-2 dismember, -2 metamorph
+2 ratchet bomb, +2 warping wail


Deathblade:

-4 cotv, -2 dismember, -2 reshaper
+3 all is dust, +2 endbringer, +2 needle, +1 wail


ANT:

-2 jitte, -4 reshaper, -2 dismember
+4 leyline, +2 ratchet, +2 wail


Reanimator:

-2 jitte, -4 reshaper, -2 endless one
+4 leyline, +2 wail, +2 endbringer


Death&Taxes:

On the play
-2 thorn, -2 wail, -1 mimic
+3 all is dust, +2 endbringer

On the draw
- 4 cotv, -2 thorn, -2 wail
+3 all is dust, +2 needle, +3 endbringer


Lands:

-2 jitte, -2 dismember, -4 reshaper
+4 leyline, +2 needle, +2 endbringer


Sneak&Show:

-2 jitte, -2 dismember, -2 reshaper
+2 wail, +2 endbringer, +2 needle


BUG Delver:

On the play
-2 metamorph, -1 endless one
+3 all is dust

On the draw
-4 cotv, -2 metamorph, -3 mimic
+3 all is dust, +2 warping wail, +2 endbringer, +2 needle


Hopefully this gets sideboarding discussion going :)

you said you have not convinced you of the 2 metamorph right? What would you put?
second question: against rug delver,omnitell,mud..side out and side in..thanks?

josch6083
04-10-2016, 09:49 AM
Hi,

I already mentioned that against Most of the MUs nevinyrrils disc is the answer. Its way more castable than all is dust and it kills ensnaring bridge. Its also a Killer in the mirror. And I think there is a good Chance to meet more and more Eldrazi. Also against blood moon all is dust is way too slow. And you kill cards that are a real pain in the Ass like jitte/any swords/vial/Interrupt top-mentor combo ... You cannot kill with all is dust.
I play 2 md and 1 all is dust sb. I am very happy so far! And with 4 factories and 21 eldrazis I got enough pressure after the board is wiped.
I really recommend disc. :-)

RhoxWarMonk
04-10-2016, 10:06 AM
That was my favorite moment of the tournament. It's a shame the archived video doesn't have sound anymore. It's so much more hilarious with it. IIRC, it was something like this:

"Well, I guess I could take 6."
*play Displacer*
"That's all you got?"
*activate Displacer*
"I guess targeting Thought-Knot Seer is pretty good."
*the moment the horribly realization kicks in when TKS enters my side of the board, resulting in a 4-card swing and him being dead on board now*
"Shit! FUCK!"

:laugh:

I really hope I can watch all of my replays at some point because there were a couple of really sweet plays and games in it.

@Riehu: Sideboarding really isn't my forte, so don't expect too much of it. What exactly do you want to know?

:laugh: That's fantastic! Do you know if there's any other replays of the tournament? Maybe even the finals? Ive watched all I could so far, really seeing the Displacer doing some serious work.

Riehu
04-10-2016, 10:13 AM
:laugh: That's fantastic! Do you know if there's any other replays of the tournament? Maybe even the finals? Ive watched all I could so far, really seeing the Displacer doing some serious work.

Can you link those?

RhoxWarMonk
04-10-2016, 11:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3F76szrptg

My match vs Julian R3.

@ Reihu

They're on this thread. This one here and the one on the previous page vs reanimator

caprino
04-10-2016, 11:44 AM
@ Reihu

They're on this thread. This one here and the one on the previous page vs reanimator
YouTube game complete this barook?

Alex_UNLIMITED
04-10-2016, 11:54 AM
Hi,

I already mentioned that against Most of the MUs nevinyrrils disc is the answer. Its way more castable than all is dust and it kills ensnaring bridge. Its also a Killer in the mirror. And I think there is a good Chance to meet more and more Eldrazi. Also against blood moon all is dust is way too slow. And you kill cards that are a real pain in the Ass like jitte/any swords/vial/Interrupt top-mentor combo ... You cannot kill with all is dust.
I play 2 md and 1 all is dust sb. I am very happy so far! And with 4 factories and 21 eldrazis I got enough pressure after the board is wiped.
I really recommend disc. :-)
I think that Oblivion Stone is better. You can save your permanents and you can activate it the same turn it enters the battlefield.

Thereisnocomp2
04-10-2016, 12:30 PM
Took down Lejay on Shardless in the final round. :eek:

6-1 after 7 rounds with my new list in the Legacy challenge - Top 8 incoming!

I agree with the posters above - Displacers + Matter Reshaper is insane! Since they cover the weakness each other's list had, the result is extremely strong (although I prefer at least 3 Displacers with a 4th one as SB option.) 15-2 with the list in leagues + Challenge so far.

Firstly Barook, congratulations on the Legacy Challenge victory. I know we chatted a bit on it during the Rd 4 Reanimator match in his Twitch stream, but you really did excellently throughout this tournament regardless of admittedly silly Grave Titan lines (i just thought you were sitting on a Wail LOL!!) Incredibly impressive performance, and I can't help but think you have forced me to run your list going forward. I was already among the few who thought your Reshaper/Displacer combination was the next evolution and am more than happy to accept your profound results as confirmation this is where the list should be without doubt.

My only question to you would be how harmful changing Petals to Diamonds would be, perhaps even just a pair. I do have a Mox Diamond love affair, but perhaps you will be able to explain better the boons of Petal vs the decks where we want the White or Temporary Accel? The biggest thing i see is allowing 24 instead of 25 lands.

I am also thrilled that at least for now the Wastelands discussion has been laid to rest. We want to keep lands not lose them! :)

I feel truly lucky to be a part of this exciting new archtype.

Metronome-- Sorry I couldn't make it to the Tales 1k buddy, but i am disputing custody for my five year old daughter so i just had to prioritize a bit yesterday. I will likely make the 1k in Jersey next weekend with Barooks-Challenge list.

ironclad8690
04-10-2016, 12:52 PM
Grats Barook, you guys are putting in good work and it appears to be paying off quite a bit :cool:

darkgh0st
04-10-2016, 02:14 PM
That was my favorite moment of the tournament. It's a shame the archived video doesn't have sound anymore. It's so much more hilarious with it. IIRC, it was something like this:

"Well, I guess I could take 6."
*play Displacer*
"That's all you got?"
*activate Displacer*
"I guess targeting Thought-Knot Seer is pretty good."
*the moment the horribly realization kicks in when TKS enters my side of the board, resulting in a 4-card swing and him being dead on board now*
"Shit! FUCK!"

:laugh:

I had to rewatch that reanimator match-up. That topdeck was wicked in many ways, and the funny reaction. Lol

Kronicler
04-10-2016, 02:17 PM
Hey all,

I got second place yesterday at the Wyrmwood Legacy Open II playing Eldrazi Stompy. I believe there were 42-44ish people there. Here is the list I ran:

Lands (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures (24)
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Endbringer
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

Spells (12)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

SB
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 All is Dust

I beat Miracles, UR Delver, Shardless BUG and UR Delver before double drawing into T8. Then I beat Infect in the quarters, Storm in the semis, and lost to Sneak and Show in the finals. 24 lands and two accelerants felt great, but then again I never really played against a hard-core mana denial deck like Lands or D&T. My 12 spells also felt just right. Metamorph was fine but not amazing for me, and I tended to side it out pretty frequently. It was cute when I was able to copy a TKS against Storm, but it didn't end up being the difference maker.

I've been very resistant to playing Matter Reshaper, and overall they were just OK for me. One game against UR Delver he bolted a Reshaper and the trigger revealed Thorn, which I slammed into play, but otherwise it was pretty meh. Endbringer singlehandedly won me a game against UR Delver, and has been a total all-star for me in the past against Jund, Lands, Delver, and D&T, but I could definitely see moving one copy to the sideboard.

Neither my play nor my draws were particularly inspired in the finals, and I'd also never played against S&S, which certainly hurt. Overall, though, I was obviously very happy with how the deck performed.

Barook
04-10-2016, 03:55 PM
My only question to you would be how harmful changing Petals to Diamonds would be, perhaps even just a pair. I do have a Mox Diamond love affair, but perhaps you will be able to explain better the boons of Petal vs the decks where we want the White or Temporary Accel? The biggest thing i see is allowing 24 instead of 25 lands.
I ran Mox before. The problems are that a) it's a completely dead topdeck later on while Petals still have at least some fringe uses, b) it makes your starting hands more inconsistent and c) you most likely lose mana if you're forced to discard a Sol land.

Despite being temporary, Petal does a better job than Mox overall.

metronome2charisma
04-10-2016, 04:19 PM
Firstly Barook, congratulations on the Legacy Challenge victory. I know we chatted a bit on it during the Rd 4 Reanimator match in his Twitch stream, but you really did excellently throughout this tournament regardless of admittedly silly Grave Titan lines (i just thought you were sitting on a Wail LOL!!) Incredibly impressive performance, and I can't help but think you have forced me to run your list going forward. I was already among the few who thought your Reshaper/Displacer combination was the next evolution and am more than happy to accept your profound results as confirmation this is where the list should be without doubt.

My only question to you would be how harmful changing Petals to Diamonds would be, perhaps even just a pair. I do have a Mox Diamond love affair, but perhaps you will be able to explain better the boons of Petal vs the decks where we want the White or Temporary Accel? The biggest thing i see is allowing 24 instead of 25 lands.

I am also thrilled that at least for now the Wastelands discussion has been laid to rest. We want to keep lands not lose them! :)

I feel truly lucky to be a part of this exciting new archtype.

Metronome-- Sorry I couldn't make it to the Tales 1k buddy, but i am disputing custody for my five year old daughter so i just had to prioritize a bit yesterday. I will likely make the 1k in Jersey next weekend with Barooks-Challenge list.

No worries man, i can't make it to togit next weekend so its whatever. I switched back to colorless for the tournament because i felt the list was a little more powerful. The Barook list is running reshaper and displacer with the minimal white splash like i was trying a few weeks ago .i think i'm gunna give his 75 a shot. It'll probably be a few weeks till i can get all the cards. but i believe having displacer in some number is better than none at all. Have you tested all is dust? , How'd you like it?

DavidHernandez
04-10-2016, 05:45 PM
I took first place at a thirteen person tourney last Thursday with the following build:

Creatures (23)
4 Eldrazi Mimic
1 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Instant (2)
1 Dismember
1 Warping Wail

Artifact (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Mox Diamond

Land (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
((61 Cards))

Sideboard (15)
2 All is Dust
1 Platinum Angel
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Grafdiggers Cage
4 Leyline of the Void

Yes, I'm running 61 main. The mana base supports it.

I hated the Factory's. Platinum Angel and Nevs Disk were no good. Revokers were amazing, but I wanted one Pithing Needle in a match against Lands. I Lost 2 games the whole night.

So, there were things I didn't like. There were other things I loved.

Here's the updated list. I wanted a basic land, and I felt that the Urborg helped opponents more than me so I'm dropping it. I'm going all colorless with Spatial Contortion over Dismember.

Nevs disk was too slow. All Is Dust was faster, so I'm adding a third.

Matter Reshaper is okay, but I dropped one for a third Revoker because Jace, Liliana, and Deathrite Shaman are things.

The Factory's were useless. I'm replacing them with Bosheiju, Who Shelters All so I can cast All Is Dust and Spatial without worrying.

The Akroma's Memorial is for Moat, and to fly in matches where that might be a thing. Might be terrible. We'll see.

Mox Diamond with Crucible was great, especially against Lands. After playing and testing, I'm going to this:

New list:

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:23
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Spatial Contortion
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Crucible of Worlds

Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
1 Wastes

Sideboard:15
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion
2 Warping Wail
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Akroma's Memorial
3 All Is Dust

This deck is an amazing creation. Congrats to whomever came up with it.

Dave

Finn
04-10-2016, 09:32 PM
This deck is an amazing creation. Congrats to whomever came up with it.
Wizards of the Coast did.

Also, you have Boseiju in the main with exactly one spell for it.:confused:

Perhaps Boseiju should be in the side with the spells.

darkgh0st
04-10-2016, 10:21 PM
@Barook: Did you find the 3rd Karakas in the SB useful? Thanks in advance.

Barook
04-10-2016, 11:58 PM
@Barook: Did you find the 3rd Karakas in the SB useful? Thanks in advance.
I faced Reanimator twice and had multiple match-ups where Displacer was MVP. Answer is a 100% definite yes.

DavidHernandez
04-11-2016, 02:37 AM
Wizards of the Coast did.

Also, you have Boseiju in the main with exactly one spell for it.:confused:

Perhaps Boseiju should be in the side with the spells.

The board is really tight. I'm probably going to drop the 2 questionable Akroma's and the Pithing Needle in favor of three Helm of Obedience. I really like the idea of an alternate win condition.

As for the 2 Boseiju in the main, I don't see how it matters since I'll use them for colorless. I like them for post board, and they're still not useless pre-board. I really didn't like the Mishra's Factorys...

Dave

Riehu
04-11-2016, 05:16 AM
you said you have not convinced you of the 2 metamorph right? What would you put?
second question: against rug delver,omnitell,mud..side out and side in..thanks?

I think you can deduct omnitell and rug delver from what I wrote. I put in 2x Endbringer, want to try it out once again to improve my late game and to some extent show&tell match up. And put 2x revoker to sideboard.

RhoxWarMonk
04-11-2016, 08:55 AM
The board is really tight. I'm probably going to drop the 2 questionable Akroma's and the Pithing Needle in favor of three Helm of Obedience. I really like the idea of an alternate win condition.

As for the 2 Boseiju in the main, I don't see how it matters since I'll use them for colorless. I like them for post board, and they're still not useless pre-board. I really didn't like the Mishra's Factorys...

Dave

Well... for starters, they come into play tapped -- which has huge implications in an aggro shell. I've never tested Boseiju in this list, so I can't really comment on it's validity (I don't like to comment on cards I've not played in any given list), but any lands that ETB tapped is an instant deal breaker for me. Also, don't you HAVE to pay 2 life to get the 1 colorless mana, regardless if you use it on an uncounterable instant or sorc? If that's the case, I don't see what this is actually giving you?

If you don't like Mishra's factories, Wasteland is a solid alternative. I've been running the Factories and I like them quite a lot but there's a strong argument to be made for Wastelands in this slot as well.

aluisiocsantos
04-11-2016, 09:38 AM
I think I missed something here but why is the choice of painlands instead of duals? Budget or anything I'm missing?

Hopo
04-11-2016, 09:51 AM
I think I missed something here but why is the choice of painlands instead of duals? Budget or anything I'm missing?
They give colorless mana.

aluisiocsantos
04-11-2016, 10:00 AM
I think I missed something here but why is the choice of painlands instead of duals? Budget or anything I'm missing?

Oh, that makes complete sense, thanks.

Been meaning to comeback to magic (way too much hearthstone as of lately) and break away from same old grindy decks (currently playing Loam decks) with something fresh. I also have my MUD piling up dust, so it's not a huge change in a manner of card picks to play this, so I'm trying to understand the archetype first. :)

DavidHernandez
04-13-2016, 05:25 AM
Well... for starters, they come into play tapped -- which has huge implications in an aggro shell. I've never tested Boseiju in this list, so I can't really comment on it's validity (I don't like to comment on cards I've not played in any given list), but any lands that ETB tapped is an instant deal breaker for me. Also, don't you HAVE to pay 2 life to get the 1 colorless mana, regardless if you use it on an uncounterable instant or sorc? If that's the case, I don't see what this is actually giving you?

If you don't like Mishra's factories, Wasteland is a solid alternative. I've been running the Factories and I like them quite a lot but there's a strong argument to be made for Wastelands in this slot as well.

Good points. I'm testing them and I don't like two. I look at it as a card for mid game to force the All Is Dust, Dismember or Spatial Contortion, and Warping Wail through. I'll try it with one and put my Urborg back in. I run four Wasteland but may drop to three so I can run two Wastes. I'm not married to Boseiju's, just looking for some silver bullets this week.

I've read the entire 22 page thread but don't see good answers for Back To Basics. Do wee just race the three mana they need?

nonja
04-13-2016, 05:59 AM
I've read the entire 22 page thread but don't see good answers for Back To Basics. Do wee just race the three mana they need?

The same strategy as Blood Moon, except lands still produce 2 mana, and Eye of Ugin still works

Kid
04-13-2016, 10:18 AM
Hello!!

Long time lurker, I have two questions for y'all :

- What's so fantastic about the interaction Matter + Displacer ?
- Why do you think that LoTV is better than RiP overall?? Because RiP can be decayed?

Cheers !

Kid

RhoxWarMonk
04-13-2016, 10:39 AM
Hello!!

Long time lurker, I have two questions for y'all :

- What's so fantastic about the interaction Matter + Displacer ?
- Why do you think that LoTV is better than RiP overall?? Because RiP can be decayed?

Cheers !

Kid

- In general, Matter Reshaper is just a nice card that gives value as a 3 drop, which is something this deck really wants to play on curve. There's no real good 3 drops apart from Reshaper for Eldrazi. The Displacer interaction just happens to be a nice bonus because if you have a lucky top deck, you can play the Displacer off of the Reshaper trigger. It's minor but it does come up from time to time.

- I personally like LotV because it doesn't constrain my mana as much (as well as not being a target for AD). I found RiP would require me to have more white sources, which was not ideal if I wanted to run a more aggressive shell with Factories. If you run RiP, you basically need to run 4x Caves as well to have any hope of casting it. I much prefer the colorless shell with the Displacer splash, rather than full on mono - white version of the deck. This is why this deck is not running Containment Priests either, despite it being a very good card with Displacer.

Kid
04-13-2016, 11:24 AM
- In general, Matter Reshaper is just a nice card that gives value as a 3 drop, which is something this deck really wants to play on curve. There's no real good 3 drops apart from Reshaper for Eldrazi. The Displacer interaction just happens to be a nice bonus because if you have a lucky top deck, you can play the Displacer off of the Reshaper trigger. It's minor but it does come up from time to time.

- I personally like LotV because it doesn't constrain my mana as much (as well as not being a target for AD). I found RiP would require me to have more white sources, which was not ideal if I wanted to run a more aggressive shell with Factories. If you run RiP, you basically need to run 4x Caves as well to have any hope of casting it. I much prefer the colorless shell with the Displacer splash, rather than full on mono - white version of the deck. This is why this deck is not running Containment Priests either, despite it being a very good card with Displacer.

Oh I see.
About the displacer/matter interaction I thought there was more to it than just the Matter's trigger. But, ok, my bad... :')

That's what I thought as well about RiP & CP.

Cheers for your inputs mate!

Kid.

iostream
04-13-2016, 12:59 PM
Oh I see.
About the displacer/matter interaction I thought there was more to it than just the Matter's trigger. But, ok, my bad... :')

That's what I thought as well about RiP & CP.

Cheers for your inputs mate!

Kid.There's a deeper answer, which is that they both cover the other's weaknesses on a strategic level. Matter Reshaper is really good at drilling through the ground. Things like Baleful Strix, random Shardless Agents, Elemental Tokens, random crappy Merfolk, etc. get grinded away at a good rate. In these situations, Displacer is of limited utility due to things like Strix's ETB trigger or because you just don't have enough mana to falter enough creatures to make the combat math favorable for you. On the other hand, Displacer is really good at messing around with things like equipment, big fatties, etc. In those situations, Matter Reshaper does little because of how those decks are constructed. For instance, basically every Stoneforge Mystic deck has Swords to Plowshares in it, Reanimator doesn't care if you flash in another Eldrazi Mimic or whatever off of Reshaper, etc.

Having access to both gives you at least the potential to cast a relevant thing on curve in most matchups.

DavidHernandez
04-13-2016, 04:58 PM
I didn't see this anywhere in the 22 pages, so ...

What about the use of Riftstone Portals along with Mox Diamonds? If you pitch the Riftstone for the Diamond, all of your lands can tap for Green or White. I know a lot of you play White splash, and this would also get around Blood Moon by giving us a way to cast Disenchant or Krosan Grip. It would also turn our Eye of Ugin into a mana generator while still providing -2 for Eldrazi spells. That's 4 mana on turn one (Mox Diamond, -2 for Eye, tap eye for G/W).

I would splash white if this is viable.

Thoughts?

Dave

Secretly.A.Bee
04-13-2016, 07:26 PM
Getting the Portal into the yard seems rough if you only play Diamond to get it there. It's a cool idea, but I'm having a hard time finding another way to get It to the yard.

metronome2charisma
04-13-2016, 11:22 PM
- In general, Matter Reshaper is just a nice card that gives value as a 3 drop, which is something this deck really wants to play on curve. There's no real good 3 drops apart from Reshaper for Eldrazi. The Displacer interaction just happens to be a nice bonus because if you have a lucky top deck, you can play the Displacer off of the Reshaper trigger. It's minor but it does come up from time to time.

- I personally like LotV because it doesn't constrain my mana as much (as well as not being a target for AD). I found RiP would require me to have more white sources, which was not ideal if I wanted to run a more aggressive shell with Factories. If you run RiP, you basically need to run 4x Caves as well to have any hope of casting it. I much prefer the colorless shell with the Displacer splash, rather than full on mono - white version of the deck. This is why this deck is not running Containment Priests either, despite it being a very good card with Displacer.


The interaction between reshaper and displacer won me my match against shardless bug tonight. i played a reshaper into deed and hit a displacer..it was great!. went 3-1 for second place. there was only 15 people.

DavidHernandez
04-14-2016, 02:32 AM
Getting the Portal into the yard seems rough if you only play Diamond to get it there. It's a cool idea, but I'm having a hard time finding another way to get It to the yard.

Hey man! Good to hear from you! I'm thinking I could waste my own land if necessary. I'll test it. And I'll stop posting fringe stuff until I have results. I don't want to mess up this excellent thread.

Dave

Cire
04-14-2016, 09:20 AM
Hey man! Good to hear from you! I'm thinking I could waste my own land if necessary. I'll test it. And I'll stop posting fringe stuff until I have results. I don't want to mess up this excellent thread.

Dave

I love the fringe ideas :tongue:. That said, what about Anvil of Bogardan? Let's you loot and might help with smoothing out bad draws. I think if I would make a test list, it would be Barook's White splash with reshapers and Worldbreaker SB, and then I would replace lotus petals with Mox, the W/G pain lands with Portal and somehow make room for 1-2 Anvils and run that for a bit. Who knows?

Edit:

Tested the following Portal list for fun:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Riftstone Portal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Warping Wail

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
2 Matter Reshaper

To preface - this list was developed solely to test Riftstone Portal. It makes certain deck design choices that I think are objectively inferior such as dropping all Mishra's factories and running a full set of Eyes.

Results: You think that with only a 2.5% chance of getting a first turn TKS that it wouldn't happen in my test run. You would be wrong. And it felt AMAZING. Additionally, in a game 2 I was able to get a turn 2 Worldbreaker. (Mox, Eye, riftstone in yard and city of traitors). Note: chance for 6 mana turn 2 will be around 12.5%!, I think. (Eye, Any other two mana land, Mox, and Riftstone hand). More importantly, it seems that your chance for 5 mana turn 2 is significantly higher, especially if you also run Urborg. (any 2 2-mana lands Plus mox/ Eye + Mox + Riftstone (and any other land) OR Urborg - I have the chance of those scenarios being around an estimated %70! This means that Turn 1 Chalice/ Turn 2 Reality Smasher should happen around %14, and Turn 1 Chalice/ Turn 2 TKS should be around %20. Either of them happening should be around %34.) That is certainly interesting at the very least. While awkward, I was able to get white mana through riftstone, karakas, and caverns for the Displacer pretty much always. Anvil wasn't that great. While it helps you smooth your drawing, I think it was a waste (outside acting as discard outlet for Riftstone), since Eldrazi's strength is that we're better at topdecking, and we should be laying threats not draw smoothers.

Eldariel
04-15-2016, 05:22 AM
Anvil feels ill at home in a deck that makes so little use of its graveyard. There are opponents who benefit a lot more: you give reanimator strategies an easy, free discard outlet while simultaneously letting any Deathrite decks fuel their Deathrites and Tarmogoyfs with impunity, not to even mention what you do to Dredge. And you pay a card for the whole shebang (since Anvil never replaces itself), while simultaneously paying 2 mana to not apply pressure or place lock pieces. The synergy of Riftstone Portal with Eye of Ugin is obviously nice and being able to deal with Moon/B2B/etc. more reliably is convenient but aside from those considerations, you don't actually need multiple W or G for anything so one land tapping for the type is as good as another. Of course, Riftstone does give you some resilience against Wasteland effects in this regard which is nice - but again, unless you have reliable means of getting it into the grave, it's just a nonbasic Wastes.

Barook
04-15-2016, 07:25 AM
People keep asking me for a SB guide for my build. Note that sideboarding is not by forte and I could be entirely wrong, so take this suggestions with a grain of salt.

Edit: Updated: 04.06.2016

Miracles:
+3 All is Dust
+2 World Breaker
+1 Warping Wail

-3 Matter Reshaper
-2 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 (could be Dismember vs builds that aren't Mentor or Legendary, otherwise cut into Mimics or -1 City)

Mimics encourage overextending, so you don't want a full playset after boarding. Keeping some to keep up early aggression is okay. Displacer is good in this match, therefore run 4. Against Mentor builds, I bring in the 3rd Dismember. Undecided about Thorn.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mirror:
+2 Word Breaker
+1 Dismember
+2 Spatial Contortion

-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Warping Wail

Pretty much straight-forward. For those who like it can cut another card for the 3rd Warping Wail.

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Shardless BUG:
+3 All is Dust
+1 Warping Wail
+1 Dismember
+2 Spatial Contortion

-2 Jitte
-2 Displacer
-4 Chalice of the Void

You want All is Dust (MVP) and additional removal. You want to overrun them before they can build up a meaningful defense, thus Leyline might slow them down enough. Leyline is nice and all, but doesn't justify dead draws and overboarding.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grixis 4C Delver:
+2 Spatial Contortion
+2 Thorn

-2 Dismember
-2 Warping Wail

Turns out that overrunning them is still the best plan, despite Young Pyromancer tokens. Dismember hurts you too much to keep it around. Displacer and Jitte are your main ways to clear the way post-board.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Storm:
+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Warping Wail

-2 Jitte
-2 Dismember
-3 Displacer

This one is easy to board. LotV is good since most of their kills rely on GY shenanigans.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUG Delver
+1 Warping Wail
+2 Spatial Contortion

-3 something (undecided)

Again, just like in the Grixis match-up, overrunning them works best. Not to sure what to cut. If they rely heavily on the GY, bring in Leyline.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Esper Deathblade:
+3 All is Dust
+2 World Breaker

-2 Warping Wail
-2 Dismember
-1 Matter Reshasper

All is Dust & World Breaker are clear in this match-up. Displacer is also good since it makes their equipment worse. Your removal doesn't have good targets (especially TNN is annoying), so it comes out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Death and Taxes:
+3 All is Dust
+2 World Breaker
+1 Warping Wail
+2 Spatial Contortion

-4 Endless One
-3 Matter Reshaper
-1 Mimic

More removal (creature + Breaker for annoying permanents) and sweepers. Yes, those cards are expensive, but then again, they can't mana deny you every game. It's a trade-off. Displacer wrecks them if it can stick.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burn:
+2 Thorn
+2 Spatial Contortion

-2 Dismember
-2 Displacer

Not much to say here. Potentially World Breaker in for Ensnaring Bridge, although you should never go over 3 lands due to Price of Progress.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sneak & Show:
+1 Warping Wail
+2 Thorn
+2 World Breaker

-2 Dismember
-2 Jitte
-1 Matter Reshaper

Useless cards out, anti-fatty cards + disruption in. Be aware that new lists run Mentor SB, so All is Dust might become necessary to bring in (which also helps against their Blood Moons).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reanimator:
+1 Dismember
+1 Warping Wail
+4 Leyline of the Void

-2 Jitte
-3 Matter Reshaper
-1 Mimic

Could also be keeping Mimic with no Wails brought in. You need fatty disruption & GY hate. Dismember is for problematic creature like Tidesprout Tyrant or Ashen Rider.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lands
+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 World Breaker

-2 Jitte
-2 Dismember
-2 Matter Reshaper

You need ways to kill of Marit Lage (Displacer is MVP here) and annoying lands, hence World Breaker.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dredge:
+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Thorn
+1 Warping Wail

-2 Mimic
-2 Dismember
-3 Matter Reshaper

You need GY hate and more disruption. Mimics run into a wall of chumpblockers and Dismember is useless.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Infect:
+1 Warping Wail
+1 Dismember
+2 Spatial Contortion

-3 Matter Reshaper
-1 Mimic

Displacer and Jitte are you MVPs here. Especially Displacer can win the game on its own. More removal and spell disruption are also good. One could bring in Thorn, but I have trouble finding more cards to board out as you need enough creatures to race them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elves:
+1 Dismember
+1 Warping Wail
+2 Spatial Contortion
+3 All is Dust

-4 Mimic
-3 Matter Reshaper

More removal for their creatures. All is Dust to sweep the board if the games goes longer.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those are probably the most common match-ups.

General rules of thumb for boarding:

Do they have lots of blockers/sweepers? Mimic out
Does Matter Reshaper not matter and you need space? Matter Reshaper out
They don't run creatures or good targets? Jitte/Dismember/Warping Wail out
Displacer being not good while Reshaper is okay? Displacer out
Karakas is brought in? 1 City out

Are they midrange/control or do they run Blood Moon? All is Dust in
Do they run annoying noncreature permanents? World Breaker in
Do they rely on the GY? Leyline in
Are they running fatties, tokens or equipment? Karakas + Displacer in
Have they many creatures? Dismember (and Wail) in
Combo with Sorceries? Wail in
Do they heavily on noncreature spells? Thorn in

RhoxWarMonk
04-15-2016, 08:41 AM
Great guide Barook, thanks for posting.

I did a bit of testing with a friend with your build last night, results were very good. Shardless is actually a good matchup now with Displacer, my good God man, that card is such a beating!! We had some very close games, one where I was at 2 life from my own Ancient Tombs as I was flickering Tarm x2 for the entire game and eventually won on the back of a Displacer with Reshaper backup. You just can't stop the Displacer once you have the mana.

A few notes:
My deck is slightly different in that Im running -2 Brushlands / +1 CoT, +1 Tendo Ice Bridge. I actually find I still have zero issues producing white mana and I'm considering changing the Ice Bridge to be an Urborg or the 4th Mishra's Factory. Unsure yet...

CotV is borderline useless against Shardless but if you are going to cast it game 1, play it for 0. At least you'll stop the visions from going off and cascading into Visions is even more awful for us. They have so few 1 drops, playing Chalice @1 like we do against most decks won't really do anything outside shutting down their brainstorms. Chalice @2 is far better, if you can stabilize that long.

Loved the creature base you were running, wouldn't change a thing there. The Reshapes do some serious work, at one point I had Reshaper in play, killed, flipped over another Reshaper... killed, flipped over a Displacer :laugh: That's fun times lol!

Overall, I LOVED this version of the deck and it will be what I play going forward, at least until I see something that can be considered comparable and put up the same kind of results. My SB is very different (I'm running the Helm combo) which I haven't really tested it yet but I plan to do some more between now and the end of this month. There's a few big local legacy events coming up, so we'll see how it fares then. Overall though, it's been so far so good!

Barook
04-15-2016, 09:03 AM
Great guide Barook, thanks for posting.

I did a bit of testing with a friend with your build last night, results were very good. Shardless is actually a good matchup now with Displacer, my good God man, that card is such a beating!! We had some very close games, one where I was at 2 life from my own Ancient Tombs as I was flickering Tarm x2 for the entire game and eventually won on the back of a Displacer with Reshaper backup. You just can't stop the Displacer once you have the mana.

A few notes:
My deck is slightly different in that Im running -2 Brushlands / +1 CoT, +1 Tendo Ice Bridge. I actually find I still have zero issues producing white mana and I'm considering changing the Ice Bridge to be an Urborg or the 4th Mishra's Factory. Unsure yet...

CotV is borderline useless against Shardless but if you are going to cast it game 1, play it for 0. At least you'll stop the visions from going off and cascading into Visions is even more awful for us. They have so few 1 drops, playing Chalice @1 like we do against most decks won't really do anything outside shutting down their brainstorms. Chalice @2 is far better, if you can stabilize that long.

Loved the creature base you were running, wouldn't change a thing there. The Reshapes do some serious work, at one point I had Reshaper in play, killed, flipped over another Reshaper... killed, flipped over a Displacer :laugh: That's fun times lol!

Overall, I LOVED this version of the deck and it will be what I play going forward, at least until I see something that can be considered comparable and put up the same kind of results. My SB is very different (I'm running the Helm combo) which I haven't really tested it yet but I plan to do some more between now and the end of this month. There's a few big local legacy events coming up, so we'll see how it fares then. Overall though, it's been so far so good!
I wouldn't call Shardless a good match-up yet. This version might have more game against Shardless compared to other lists, but that requires more testing. Lejay's version ran neither Strix nor Hymn, both highly problematic cards.

Personally, I found Matter Reshaper and Factories more important vs Shardless. If Displacer alone had been enough, then my old GW version wouldn't have been destroyed so horribly.

As for the mana, I'm better safe than sorry.

For the SB, make definitely sure you run 3x All is Dust. Trust me, you're gonna need it. It was probably the biggest game changer in certain matches, only outshined by Displayer's ridiculousness.

RhoxWarMonk
04-15-2016, 09:15 AM
I wouldn't call Shardless a good match-up yet. This version might have more game against Shardless compared to other lists, but that requires more testing. Lejay's version ran neither Strix nor Hymn, both highly problematic cards.

Personally, I found Matter Reshaper and Factories more important vs Shardless. If Displacer alone had been enough, then my old GW version wouldn't have been destroyed so horribly.

As for the mana, I'm better safe than sorry.

For the SB, make definitely sure you run 3x All is Dust. Trust me, you're gonna need it. It was probably the biggest game changer in certain matches, only outshined by Displayer's ridiculousness.

The list we tested last night ran both hymn and strix, and I agree both are problems. I hate strix with a passion, such a bad card to play around but I wouldn't even hesitate to Dismember it if need be. You can flicker tarms with ease but flickering strix or agents is really bad ... I shouldn't have implied it was a positive matchup, I meant to say it's simply much better than the colorless version. Agreed about the reshapers and factories as well.

I'm currently only using 2 all is dust.... do you find the 3rd to be necessary? I have a few less sb slots due to the helms but I'm sure I can squeeze one more in. What about Pithing Needle ? I noticed you aren't running any but they seem really good against planes walkers and wastelands.

As for the final land slot, are you still happy with no urborg ? Been debating testing it now that I know I have enough white sources, just as a 1 of.

Barook
04-15-2016, 09:32 AM
The list we tested last night ran both hymn and strix, and I agree both are problems. I hate strix with a passion, such a bad card to play around but I wouldn't even hesitate to Dismember it if need be. You can flicker tarms with ease but flickering strix or agents is really bad ... I shouldn't have implied it was a positive matchup, I meant to say it's simply much better than the colorless version. Agreed about the reshapers and factories as well.

I'm currently only using 2 all is dust.... do you find the 3rd to be necessary? I have a few less sb slots due to the helms but I'm sure I can squeeze one more in. What about Pithing Needle ? I noticed you aren't running any but they seem really good against planes walkers and wastelands.

As for the final land slot, are you still happy with no urborg ? Been debating testing it now that I know I have enough white sources, just as a 1 of.
Flickering Agent is only bad because it's a low value target. Strix is a bitch because its trigger is ETB, unlike Agent which is on-cast.

Yes, 3 All is Dust is necessary imho. It's pretty much game-winning every time it resolves. Needle is okay, but I don't have space for that. Plus, it clashes with CotV @1.

Yes, I'm still happy of Urborg. My opinion since the analysis that led to the current list hasn't changed. No pain and mana from Urborg are kinda nifty, but helping out the opponent with their mana is quite the drawback. Casting Leyline of a Urborg seems to fringe to me to even matter, as the important cards probably have hit the bin at that point already.

As it stands, I'm happy with my current 75 for now.

RhoxWarMonk
04-15-2016, 11:14 AM
Flickering Agent is only bad because it's a low value target. Strix is a bitch because its trigger is ETB, unlike Agent which is on-cast.

Well, I feel like an idiot :eyebrow: I didn't realize Agent's trigger wasn't ETB, so I was purposely avoiding flickering agents because of it. I guess I should read the cards better, same with Strix (I never wanted to flicker it either) but that one does at least draw them cards, so it was wise not to in this case.



Yes, 3 All is Dust is necessary imho. It's pretty much game-winning every time it resolves. Needle is okay, but I don't have space for that. Plus, it clashes with CotV @1.


Thanks for the advice - I will cut a needle for a 3rd All is Dust. :smile: I kinda thought AiD would be much too slow to run as a 3x but you have more experience than I do, so I'm happy to test it out.



Yes, I'm still happy of Urborg. My opinion since the analysis that led to the current list hasn't changed. No pain and mana from Urborg are kinda nifty, but helping out the opponent with their mana is quite the drawback. Casting Leyline of a Urborg seems to fringe to me to even matter, as the important cards probably have hit the bin at that point already.

As it stands, I'm happy with my current 75 for now.

A few times I missed the Urborg, especially when I had multiple Ancient Tombs in play and really didn't want to take more damage off them, so I may re-test it in place of the Ice Bridge. Otherwise, I agree, there doesn't need to be too much changed in terms of card selection from your original list. Great job Barook!

Cire
04-15-2016, 11:28 AM
Anvil feels ill at home in a deck that makes so little use of its graveyard. There are opponents who benefit a lot more: you give reanimator strategies an easy, free discard outlet while simultaneously letting any Deathrite decks fuel their Deathrites and Tarmogoyfs with impunity, not to even mention what you do to Dredge. And you pay a card for the whole shebang (since Anvil never replaces itself), while simultaneously paying 2 mana to not apply pressure or place lock pieces. The synergy of Riftstone Portal with Eye of Ugin is obviously nice and being able to deal with Moon/B2B/etc. more reliably is convenient but aside from those considerations, you don't actually need multiple W or G for anything so one land tapping for the type is as good as another. Of course, Riftstone does give you some resilience against Wasteland effects in this regard which is nice - but again, unless you have reliable means of getting it into the grave, it's just a nonbasic Wastes.

Yeah - I think I recognize that anvil was a waste. I was just expirementing with riftstone. Without some other discard outlet outside Mox diamond, I doubt it is worth expermenting with further.

DavidHernandez
04-16-2016, 03:22 AM
I love the fringe ideas :tongue:. That said, what about Anvil of Bogardan? Let's you loot and might help with smoothing out bad draws. I think if I would make a test list, it would be Barook's White splash with reshapers and Worldbreaker SB, and then I would replace lotus petals with Mox, the W/G pain lands with Portal and somehow make room for 1-2 Anvils and run that for a bit. Who knows?

Edit:

Tested the following Portal list for fun:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Riftstone Portal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Warping Wail

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
2 Matter Reshaper

To preface - this list was developed solely to test Riftstone Portal. It makes certain deck design choices that I think are objectively inferior such as dropping all Mishra's factories and running a full set of Eyes.

Results: You think that with only a 2.5% chance of getting a first turn TKS that it wouldn't happen in my test run. You would be wrong. And it felt AMAZING. Additionally, in a game 2 I was able to get a turn 2 Worldbreaker. (Mox, Eye, riftstone in yard and city of traitors). Note: chance for 6 mana turn 2 will be around 12.5%!, I think. (Eye, Any other two mana land, Mox, and Riftstone hand). More importantly, it seems that your chance for 5 mana turn 2 is significantly higher, especially if you also run Urborg. (any 2 2-mana lands Plus mox/ Eye + Mox + Riftstone (and any other land) OR Urborg - I have the chance of those scenarios being around an estimated %70! This means that Turn 1 Chalice/ Turn 2 Reality Smasher should happen around %14, and Turn 1 Chalice/ Turn 2 TKS should be around %20. Either of them happening should be around %34.) That is certainly interesting at the very least. While awkward, I was able to get white mana through riftstone, karakas, and caverns for the Displacer pretty much always. Anvil wasn't that great. While it helps you smooth your drawing, I think it was a waste (outside acting as discard outlet for Riftstone), since Eldrazi's strength is that we're better at topdecking, and we should be laying threats not draw smoothers.
Wow, that's pretty awesome. I added a third Diamond and I needed a fourth. I did well until I ran into a lands deck. He got turn two Marit Lage... LOL. I think Urborg is necessary with Leyline Void in the board, and I didn't think it through and removed my Urborg...

@barook, thanks for the boarding advice!!!

Oh, and I removed Boseiju. It's too slow.

Dave

Barook
04-16-2016, 06:38 AM
Take that SB advice as a grain of salt, though.

Entered another league, faced Shardless.

G1 I play T1 Chalice, he doesn't do anything expect play a Flooded Strand a Tropical before conceding. I don't know what to put him on.
G2 I get T2 Lili'ed, then hymned, then beaten down by a 6/7 Goyf.
G3 Factories do some work (http://imgur.com/oKUT8sl). This game also shows yet again why All is Dust is awesome and 3 copies should be a SB staple (http://i.imgur.com/kQs9g4E.jpg) (he had AD + unknown card in hand). His freshly drawn DRS is no match for the combined forces of TKS + topdecked Reality Smasher.

I think I'll bring in Leyline more often in against Shardless in the future. Keeping their Goyfs small and DRS semi-useless should outweight the potential dead cards drawn later. Overall, this is the list I feel the most comfortable with against Shardless yet.

19-2 and still going strong. 1880 ELO rating - let's see if I can push the 1900. :tongue: I can't really finish the league before Monday as I'll need to wait for the change towards SoI boosters, though.

Thereisnocomp2
04-16-2016, 05:16 PM
Entered an Eternal Extraveganza 4 Trial today, awaiting Top 8 pairings where i am first placed heading in. Will update with further details this evening when I return home from the tournament. Also i renamed the deck to MEGA-Stompy. MEGA of course standa for Make Eldrazi Great Again :)

Round 1--Miracles w/Thoptersword

Opponent made me aware he was changing to ThopterSword to improve an abysmal matchup againsy our very deck while adding that Counterbalance had seen better days in Legacy. Game 1 he beat me when he assembled ThopterSword against me after a very slow, lockout piece filled start. Game 2 i was able to counter a timely Terminus and Game 3 was won by am aggressive keep of Mimic, Reshaper, Seer and Smasher with a Temple/Tomb/City as lands. By the time he could setup a Terminus, i had a Smasher in hand at the ready to deploy for lethal. 2-1 MEGA

Round 2--Burn

Game 1 came down to multiple Price of Progress eating 12 of my life. I had to make a Displacer to put me to 6 in hope of getting Jitte online, but it cost me. Guide wouldve finished me had i no blockers to deploy. Game 2 i landed Chalice on 1 and 2 for the lockout and Game 3 involved a turn 2 Jitte on a Mimic that won the game by itself past a turn 1 Lavamancer. 2-1 MEGA

Round 3-- Junk

Game 1 we got into a boardstate of double DRS vs my empty board, and i topdecked Toxic Deluge to clean up before Reality Smasher two turns later. Game 2 he throws 3 turns of Wasteland at me after turn 1 DRS and i lose handily. Game 3 was close, but i was able to Wail his second Mystic to keep the Batterskull in hand with only 3 lands and let Reshaper and Mimic win the game alone. 2-1 MEGA

Round 4-- Grixis Delver

This guy Chris and i have had some funs matches. I cannot unfortunately remember the particulars, but i lost Game 2 at 4 life vs flipped delver when he Dismembers my Endless One on Jitte Equip. Game 3 i was able to steal thanks to a strong turn 2 after Chalice on 1 gets Forced-- Tomb and Eye gave me Mimic and Reshaper which was enough to push through since he had mo Daze on double cast. 2-1 MEGA

Quarterfinals-- Infect

I can honestly say that i understand this matchup in theory and due to the nature of paper Legacy scenes have mot tested it nearly enough. But two horrible things happened in this match.

Game 1 he drew zero pumps, just 2 Daze and 1 Spell Pierce, which was enough although had i not been Black mana screwed, i would have cast Toxic Deluge and been able to win the game a turn sooner than he could. Game 2 i kept a hand of 4 lands Deluge Chalice Chalice and landed Chalice for 1 on turn Zero. He proceeded to lay down (on a mulligan to 5 no less) two Inkmoth Nexus. And that is literally all it took. 0-2 MEGA

No, you are not missing a piece of the game. I drew five lands and a third Chalice of the Void. The deck has never failed me so miserably before this match (colored mana constraint/absolute brick on six draws). I am truly upset that it occurred when it did, but i consider it more of an abberation than proof positive of a bad matchup.

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 TKS
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Umezawas Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb/Cavern of Souls/Caves of Koilos/Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin/City of Traitors
1 Karakas/Urborg/Petrified Field (shouldve been Urborg 2, needs to be Karakas 2 once available)

SB
3 Containment Priest
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 All is Dust
1 Coercive Portal
4 Leyline of the Void

I would change only a Containment Priest to a second Dismember and add Urborg over Petrified Field. Otherwise, deck ran smoothly all day and Reshaper pulled its weight big time.

Barook
04-16-2016, 06:46 PM
Thoptersword sounds like another one of those things All is Dust manhandles since it blows up all the tokens (which are blue) plus the Foundry (which is multicolored).

What list were you on? Mono C or the Displacer version?

Thereisnocomp2
04-16-2016, 07:38 PM
Thoptersword sounds like another one of those things All is Dust manhandles since it blows up all the tokens (which are blue) plus the Foundry (which is multicolored).

What list were you on? Mono C or the Displacer version?

All is Dust is one of those cards i want to like more, but it is so mana intensive. Coercive Portal is not a guarantee, but it is much easier to land in those grindy matchups that may even have Wastelands (like DnT) that would not allow you to get to 7 mana. I could see finding room for a 2nd, but i have had good results when bringing in Portal, like against Junk or Jund where Abrupt Decay cannot stop the CA from coming. And if they want to, they just have to trade 2 creatures and possibly a germ or a Sylvan Library, a trade we are A-OK with.

Barook
04-16-2016, 08:41 PM
Coercive Portal will always a draw engine unless it's an advantage for the opponent.

As for the Infect match-up, it's relevant to know what lands you kept G2. Was there a Factory among them? Keeping a hand with zero threats against a deck you need to race sounds like a really underwhelming plan.

metronome2charisma
04-16-2016, 09:14 PM
Entered an Eternal Extraveganza 4 Trial today, awaiting Top 8 pairings where i am first placed heading in. Will update with further details this evening when I return home from the tournament. Also i renamed the deck to MEGA-Stompy. MEGA of course standa for Make Eldrazi Great Again :)

Round 1--Miracles w/Thoptersword

Opponent made me aware he was changing to ThopterSword to improve an abysmal matchup againsy our very deck while adding that Counterbalance had seen better days in Legacy. Game 1 he beat me when he assembled ThopterSword against me after a very slow, lockout piece filled start. Game 2 i was able to counter a timely Terminus and Game 3 was won by am aggressive keep of Mimic, Reshaper, Seer and Smasher with a Temple/Tomb/City as lands. By the time he could setup a Terminus, i had a Smasher in hand at the ready to deploy for lethal. 2-1 MEGA

Round 2--Burn

Game 1 came down to multiple Price of Progress eating 12 of my life. I had to make a Displacer to put me to 6 in hope of getting Jitte online, but it cost me. Guide wouldve finished me had i no blockers to deploy. Game 2 i landed Chalice on 1 and 2 for the lockout and Game 3 involved a turn 2 Jitte on a Mimic that won the game by itself past a turn 1 Lavamancer. 2-1 MEGA

Round 3-- Junk

Game 1 we got into a boardstate of double DRS vs my empty board, and i topdecked Toxic Deluge to clean up before Reality Smasher two turns later. Game 2 he throws 3 turns of Wasteland at me after turn 1 DRS and i lose handily. Game 3 was close, but i was able to Wail his second Mystic to keep the Batterskull in hand with only 3 lands and let Reshaper and Mimic win the game alone. 2-1 MEGA

Round 4-- Grixis Delver

This guy Chris and i have had some funs matches. I cannot unfortunately remember the particulars, but i lost Game 2 at 4 life vs flipped delver when he Dismembers my Endless One on Jitte Equip. Game 3 i was able to steal thanks to a strong turn 2 after Chalice on 1 gets Forced-- Tomb and Eye gave me Mimic and Reshaper which was enough to push through since he had mo Daze on double cast. 2-1 MEGA

Quarterfinals-- Infect

I can honestly say that i understand this matchup in theory and due to the nature of paper Legacy scenes have mot tested it nearly enough. But two horrible things happened in this match.

Game 1 he drew zero pumps, just 2 Daze and 1 Spell Pierce, which was enough although had i not been Black mana screwed, i would have cast Toxic Deluge and been able to win the game a turn sooner than he could. Game 2 i kept a hand of 4 lands Deluge Chalice Chalice and landed Chalice for 1 on turn Zero. He proceeded to lay down (on a mulligan to 5 no less) two Inkmoth Nexus. And that is literally all it took. 0-2 MEGA

No, you are not missing a piece of the game. I drew five lands and a third Chalice of the Void. The deck has never failed me so miserably before this match (colored mana constraint/absolute brick on six draws). I am truly upset that it occurred when it did, but i consider it more of an abberation than proof positive of a bad matchup.

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 TKS
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Umezawas Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb/Cavern of Souls/Caves of Koilos/Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin/City of Traitors
1 Karakas/Urborg/Petrified Field (shouldve been Urborg 2, needs to be Karakas 2 once available)

SB
3 Containment Priest
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 All is Dust
1 Coercive Portal
4 Leyline of the Void

I would change only a Containment Priest to a second Dismember and add Urborg over Petrified Field. Otherwise, deck ran smoothly all day and Reshaper pulled its weight big time.

Good job man ! i couldn't make it today. i am on the C/w version with just displacer, Its been great, i've only done 3 tournaments with it but I've gone 3-2. 3-1 , and 3-1 and the last one should have been 4-0 but i'm bad at magic...still think this deck is the best deck in the format .I'm going to try 2 all is dust in the board just because i haven't tried it yet. Congrats on the finish!

darkgh0st
04-16-2016, 09:30 PM
You guys are doing great! Maaan, I can't wait to join you guys with the white version. The Displacers, Karakas and Jittes are ordered, but I still haven't ordered the World Breakers... For now, I am with Braids Stax for two to four weeks.

TTX
04-16-2016, 09:44 PM
Coercive Portal will always a draw engine unless it's an advantage for the opponent.

Carnage will only resolve if both you and your opponent vote for it. Otherwise Homage will draw you a card. Portal should be viewed as an asymmetric Howling Mine and nothing else.

Thereisnocomp2
04-16-2016, 10:03 PM
Coercive Portal will always a draw engine unless it's an advantage for the opponent.

As for the Infect match-up, it's relevant to know what lands you kept G2. Was there a Factory among them? Keeping a hand with zero threats against a deck you need to race sounds like a really underwhelming plan.



Barook- Zero Factories/Wastelands in the deck probably hurt this matchup a bit, but then again-- how many times are you gonna draw 6 non-threat cards in this deck with 22-20 threats even post board if a few come out? Again, i do not take this loss as gospel for the matchup, just a poor decision by me to keep my hand with zero threats. Would i do it again? Almost certainly given the matchup ( Deluge is great vs the x/1 deck that doesnt beat via traditional damage and Chalice is a wreck agaimst them also ) but in the future i will think twice before keeping a zero threat hand even if i have all the lockout.

Honestly, i would probably run only the two changes i mentioned-- i would easily run this back at SCG Philly and probably be 6-0 instead of 5-1. This deck is Tier 1 period.

Oh and FYI-- totally wrote Barook and Riehu next to my name for Deck Designer because duh.

metronome2charisma
04-16-2016, 10:26 PM
Barook- Zero Factories/Wastelands in the deck probably hurt this matchup a bit, but then again-- how many times are you gonna draw 6 non-threat cards in this deck with 22-20 threats even post board if a few come out? Again, i do not take this loss as gospel for the matchup, just a poor decision by me to keep my hand with zero threats. Would i do it again? Almost certainly given the matchup ( Deluge is great vs the x/1 deck that doesnt beat via traditional damage and Chalice is a wreck agaimst them also ) but in the future i will think twice before keeping a zero threat hand even if i have all the lockout.

Honestly, i would probably run only the two changes i mentioned-- i would easily run this back at SCG Philly and probably be 6-0 instead of 5-1. This deck is Tier 1 period.

Oh and FYI-- totally wrote Barook and Riehu next to my name for Deck Designer because duh.

in my experience with the infect match up i would say we're about 70-30 to win i woulda kept the lock out hand as well , inkmoth, daze,become immense and invigorate are the cards that tend to win after a resolved chalice.

Please use correct Capitalisation and grammar. If you do not, I will have to hand out an infraction.

Dice.

Barook
04-17-2016, 10:17 AM
Barook- Zero Factories/Wastelands in the deck probably hurt this matchup a bit, but then again-- how many times are you gonna draw 6 non-threat cards in this deck with 22-20 threats even post board if a few come out? Again, i do not take this loss as gospel for the matchup, just a poor decision by me to keep my hand with zero threats. Would i do it again? Almost certainly given the matchup ( Deluge is great vs the x/1 deck that doesnt beat via traditional damage and Chalice is a wreck agaimst them also ) but in the future i will think twice before keeping a zero threat hand even if i have all the lockout.

Honestly, i would probably run only the two changes i mentioned-- i would easily run this back at SCG Philly and probably be 6-0 instead of 5-1. This deck is Tier 1 period.

Oh and FYI-- totally wrote Barook and Riehu next to my name for Deck Designer because duh.
I think forcing black at the cost of not running Factories is the wrong decision. Note that Dismember could have hit one Inkmoth, slowing your opponent down.

Another two consecutive wins in league, 3-0 so far, 21-2 in total, 1889 rating. Getting close. :wink:

R2 was Sneak & Show. Probably would have lost G2 if my opponent hadn't screwed up his stops and didn't try to block with a sneaked in Griselbee after blockers are declared while I was under a Blood Moon. :laugh: What is worrying me though is that all new lists have 4 Monastery Mentor in the SB. Bringing in All is Dust might become mandatory in the future.

R3 was Miracles. It was a one-sided slaughter. But who right in their mind keeps in Counterbalance vs Eldrazi after boarding? :eyebrow:

CovenantElite30
04-17-2016, 11:30 AM
I think forcing black at the cost of not running Factories is the wrong decision. Note that Dismember could have hit one Inkmoth, slowing your opponent down.

Another two consecutive wins in league, 3-0 so far, 21-2 in total, 1889 rating. Getting close. :wink:

R2 was Sneak & Show. Probably would have lost G2 if my opponent hadn't screwed up his stops and didn't try to block with a sneaked in Griselbee after blockers are declared while I was under a Blood Moon.[emoji23]What is worrying me though is that all new lists have 4 Monastery Mentor in the SB. Bringing in All is Dust might become mandatory in the future.

R3 was Miracles. It was a one-sided slaughter. But who right in their mind keeps in Counterbalance vs Eldrazi after boarding? :eyebrow:
Still on the same build?

You looking to build your version in paper?

Barook
04-17-2016, 11:35 AM
Still on the same build?

You looking to build your version in paper?
Yes, same build. Never change a running system. Right now, there's no need to change cards as I keep winning. :laugh:

I very well might be building this deck in paper, too, but I'm currently waiting for the EMA release to see if Karakas (and maybe Cavern/Chalice) get cheaper.

darkgh0st
04-17-2016, 11:41 AM
Yes, same build. Never change a running system. Right now, there's no need to change cards as I keep winning. :laugh:

I very well might be building this deck in paper, too, but I'm currently waiting for the EMA release to see if Karakas (and maybe Cavern/Chalice) get cheaper.

I'm feeling Jitte will for sure see a reprint. And also that Karakas won't see a reprint. I picked up 3 at $100 a Kraks, which was pretty far from where it was before the EMA rumors. If I'm wrong, chalk up $300 to my gut. Lol.

EDIT: as for the list, I'm suggesting using Corrupted Crossroads over Brushland. Reason behind it is to hide colors, and you can use other colored eldrazi spells as well. We aren't actually using non-eldrazi white and green mana for anything else.

spirit of the wretch
04-17-2016, 01:44 PM
Hi Barook,
I played your list in a local tournament today. Very impressive!

One thing I was having problems with was Blood Moon out of miracles SB. They seem to be easily able to force All is Dust. Or Jace-lock you. or do other mean things ;)

Do you think it is entirely unreasonable to play Wastes instead of the Factories?

I liked the Factories a lot, but I don't think you can afford to cut colored sources. And I think I want the additional Moon protection.

Barook
04-17-2016, 02:50 PM
Hi Barook,
I played your list in a local tournament today. Very impressive!

One thing I was having problems with was Blood Moon out of miracles SB. They seem to be easily able to force All is Dust. Or Jace-lock you. or do other mean things ;)

Do you think it is entirely unreasonable to play Wastes instead of the Factories?

I liked the Factories a lot, but I don't think you can afford to cut colored sources. And I think I want the additional Moon protection.
That entirely depends on your meta. I don't think cutting Factories is the right thing to do, as they're great vs control, including Miracles. If you're that worried, try to find some SB space for Wastes. What does your meta look like?

Esper3k
04-17-2016, 04:13 PM
Congrats on your finishes, Barook!

Just curious - I noticed in your side boarding guide, you don't bring in anything vs the Burn matchup for Ensnaring Bridge. Are you just gambling that they don't draw it?

Barook
04-17-2016, 04:22 PM
I haven't encountered Burn enough to be aware that they run Bridge. In that case, World Breaker might come in, although the idea of putting that many nonbasics into play to cast it doesn't sit too well with me.

Esper3k
04-17-2016, 06:21 PM
I haven't encountered Burn enough to be aware that they run Bridge. In that case, World Breaker might come in, although the idea of putting that many nonbasics into play to cast it doesn't sit too well with me.

Thanks!

Bridge seems to be getting to be more common for them to play (maybe in response to the Rise of the Eldrazi? Ha, ha).

I was just curious about your list is all since you weren't running Ratchet Bombs.

Eldariel
04-17-2016, 06:32 PM
Bridge is a long-time staple in Burn sideboards for Show'n'Tell/Reanimator-style strategies but the influx of Eldrazi is probably increasing the numbers further; I wouldn't be surprised if it were in literally every Burn sideboard in the near future.

Barook
04-17-2016, 06:50 PM
Even then, they still can jam it down on T3 the earliest, so you have a window to take it with TKS beforehand. Bomb wouldn't be a good solution anyway, considering how it's a target for Smash to Smithereens and taking a whooping 4 turns to blow it up.

jake556
04-18-2016, 12:19 AM
Bought into the hype we'll see how she plays out. Only deck I could grab on MODO for a "decent price". Loving the Caverns Kreygasm

spirit of the wretch
04-18-2016, 12:29 AM
That entirely depends on your meta. I don't think cutting Factories is the right thing to do, as they're great vs control, including Miracles. If you're that worried, try to find some SB space for Wastes. What does your meta look like?

Miracles, Death & Taxes, Delver, Eldrazi and the odd rogue deck of course. This is still legacy after all :smile:

MD.Ghost
04-18-2016, 04:32 AM
vs Burn/Bridge, you can still attack if you deploy Chalice & Co since they can't cast all spells that way so Mimic&Co can go in (and with displacer you can combo Smasher/TKS for more damage after you dodged Bridge^^

Also note, that Burn will lean mostly on cc2 Artifact Hate, so Chalice at 2 will counter the common answer plus Price of Progress.

@Spirit, since i knew "our" local meta i would advise my Sideboard (same main* as Barook, but haven't enough time for tournaments yet)

SB:
2x All is Dust
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Wastes
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dismember
1x Warping Wail
1x World Breaker

*I also switched back to 1 Talisman of Unity over the 3rd Petal at Main. Since i knew that our local Miracle Players are well prepared for the Eldrazi, Wastes are needed because you will face Moon, From the Ashes (and more than enough Aggro Loam/Lands stuff).

----
Graveyard Hate: i am still unsure, i am not sold on the 4 Leylines idea because i hate to take mulligans for them (unless i play vs Dredge etc for autowins), because even vs Storm we can hold more than enough good hands without any leyline and risk dead draws. Against BUG i only board the single Bojuka Bog. Works fine so far, because Gofy/Deathrite can combat with a lot of other tools. Bog can clear the yard, it is another land drop (bonus vs lands), adds B for Dismember (safe some life for grindy matchups) and works with Reshaper and you don't need 4! Slots vs decks that aren't pure GY combos. Against GY-Combos/Storm i am more than happy if they go all-in and try to do stuff only to play a Faerie for a full blowout. With Leyline in play they can/will try a different plan - even if it will be very hard for them, thanks to all the other hate stuff we can deploy.

Adan
04-18-2016, 04:39 AM
While we are at it, why the approach of playing 0 Wastelands and Lotus Petal? Lotus Petal is just the worst accel you can play in my opinion.
The two acceleration things I'd play over it any day are Simian Spirit Guide or Mox Diamond.
Simian Spirit Guide can be cast via Cavern on Apes in a pinch, and an ape wielding a Jitte is still dangerous after all. Well, if you play Jitte, that is (which I think you should as it also mitigates life loss by Tombs). I also like how you can slam your 2nd Turn Seer with your opponent attempting to cast Daze on it, then just surprise-pay with Ape. And being able to Dismember out of nowhere with the ape could also be crucial in a matchup such as Infect (it probably isn't, but I'm certain there are some bad players that you can bust pretty hard with that).
And another viable accel would be Mox Diamond. It's quite good when you have redundant legendary lands or Cities to recycle into mana.
I have also seen some lists running Mind Stone. More of a rogue tech, but it would also easily fix issues with Moons (as any mana stone would, but this one can cantrip in a flood situation and hopefully recycle into gas).

Another player from our region had a completely different approach, he just played Wastes instead of anything that doesn't produce 2 mana (e.g. no Wastelands, no Caverns). So I believe his manabase was
4 Tomb, 4 City, 4 Temple, 3-4 Eye, 8 Wastes. And he also packed 4 Walker of the Wastes. I also laughed about that initially, but it was crushing the mirror and the build itself didn't care about Moons at all and was less susceptible against Wasteland-locks by Loam.decs

But anyway, I liked these ideas and wanted to throw them out there, especially for you, Stefan. Don't mindlessly netdeck MTGO lists for paper magic tournaments.


vs Burn/Bridge, you can still attack if you deploy Chalice & Co since they can't cast all spells that way so Mimic&Co can go in (and with displacer you can combo Smasher/TKS for more damage after you dodged Bridge^^

Uhm, they can still play all their spells, it's just that some of them will be getting countered. However, I'd happily do that with a Bridge on the table if it saves me from getting overrun.

spirit of the wretch
04-18-2016, 04:46 AM
Hehehe, so many familiar faces in this thread. Sweet!

@Ghost: Do you bring the Bombs in vs Miracles? I would think so, right?

Barook
04-18-2016, 04:56 AM
Miracles, Death & Taxes, Delver, Eldrazi and the odd rogue deck of course. This is still legacy after all :smile:
3 All is Dust and 4 Leyline are not cuttable. I disagree with MD.Ghost who runs only 2 AiDs. The card is too game-winning to not run it.

The rest of the SB is fair game. Given your meta, you want to keep the Displacer, too (although you could move it to the main in the spot of the 4th Matter Reshaper, despite the low number of white sources - test it if you're comfortable with the mana). By removing the Displacer + Karakas from the board, you would open up 2 slots for Wastes, but make sure to run 4x Displacer in your 75, especially in your meta.

@Adan: In colorless lists, the Spirit Guides are superior. Note that Lotus Petal are only run in the colored versions that can't cover their white with Guides. Mox effectively loses you mana if you have to discard a SoL land and it increases inconsistency. I started out on Moxen and cutting them for Petals was a very good decision overall.

Adan
04-18-2016, 05:15 AM
3 All is Dust and 4 Leyline are not cuttable. I disagree with MD.Ghost who runs only 2 AiDs. The card is too game-winning to not run it.

The rest of the SB is fair game. Given your meta, you want to keep the Displacer, too (although you could move it to the main in the spot of the 4th Matter Reshaper, despite the low number of white sources - test it if you're comfortable with the mana). By removing the Displacer + Karakas from the board, you would open up 2 slots for Wastes, but make sure to run 4x Displacer in your 75, especially in your meta.

@Adan: In colorless lists, the Spirit Guides are superior. Note that Lotus Petal are only run in the colored versions that can't cover their white with Guides. Mox effectively loses you mana if you have to discard a SoL land and it increases inconsistency. I started out on Moxen and cutting them for Petals was a very good decision overall.

I honestly didn't have Eldrazi Displacer on my radar. Since you are playing colored Eldrazis, Lotus Petal does have a right to exist. However, in that case I'd still prefer the Mox (which would also synergize better with Jitte), although I see that your manabase in particular isn't well-suited to support Mox Diamond. But having a permanent colored source to slam Displacers and World Breakers under Blood Moon would add some inevitability to the Miracles matchup.

MD.Ghost
04-18-2016, 05:32 AM
Uhm, they can still play all their spells, it's just that some of them will be getting countered. However, I'd happily do that with a Bridge on the table if it saves me from getting overrun.

It is ok, since in this case Burn can't win, while Eldrazi can still go for Bomb/World Breaker if they are save from any relevant Spells (Damage + Price + Artifact Removal)^^ And as i wrote, even Mimics can be dangerous. Bridge is a common Burn tech (thanks to Show&Tell etc.), so it is nothing "New" and should be in mind for most players.


Hehehe, so many familiar faces in this thread. Sweet!

@Ghost: Do you bring the Bombs in vs Miracles? I would think so, right?

Nice you follow our Eldrazi swarm!
No Bombs vs Miracle unless they do weird stuff. I would bring: All is Dust, Wastes, Warping Wail and World Breaker. Key is to be save vs Moon (or random Moat/Humility etc.) + Threat (thats why i like to keep in Jitte too) and i wouldn't lean only to All is Dust, since you are right: Counterspell/Force are still here.

Thats why i like Wastes here, once you have 1 <c> you should be able to do all the good things (cast all Creatures, cast Warping Wail, active Displacer).


I disagree with MD.Ghost who runs only 2 AiDs.

Keep calm bro :tongue:, i purchased 3 All is Dust as a starter kit for any Eldrazi idea so i always can switch to the 3rd copy, since i love the impact of the card. You should remember that we both run the card from the beginning in most of our Eldrazi.brews. All is Dust is bonkers - i full agree - but i like to have flexible and diverse cards at side. And i only cutted the 3rd All is Dust - for the moment - because i added 2 Bombs (which reads: overall one more sweeper/removal). Still enough time to test the final 75 before the GP :wink:

EDIT:


I honestly didn't have Eldrazi Displacer on my radar. Since you are playing colored Eldrazis, Lotus Petal does have a right to exist. However, in that case I'd still prefer the Mox (which would also synergize better with Jitte), although I see that your manabase in particular isn't well-suited to support Mox Diamond. But having a permanent colored source to slam Displacers and World Breakers under Blood Moon would add some inevitability to the Miracles matchup.

We dismissed Mox a while ago - Barook and I played the GW style from the beginning, and while Mox can be a good card they aren't good in this final build (i think the current version is very strong vs the field). Overall i talked with Sedris about Mox/Petal etc. in the current build - since you are right, permanent mana can be good in some situations - that's why i am back to (at least) 1 Talisman over the 3rd Petal. I thinkt that are minimal adjustments, like some SB Slots for local/modo/big tournament meta etc.

Barook
04-18-2016, 01:13 PM
The strenght of the current Displacer build is the combination of speed and tons of cheap threats. As flexible as Talisman is for mana, it doesn't really fit that plan where you durdle for a turn instead of deploying relevant threats.

Just my 2 cents.

ZEROorDIE
04-18-2016, 02:24 PM
The strenght of the current Displacer build is the combination of speed and tons of cheap threats. As flexible as Talisman is for mana, it doesn't really fit that plan where you durdle for a turn instead of deploying relevant threats.

Just my 2 cents.

Barook, can you link to the page your current build is on? Or post it here?

Im pretty happy with where the colorless version has got me but im thinking I should finally try out the white splash version.

maraxusofkelds
04-18-2016, 04:14 PM
Coming from playing all the delver variants, my biggest question is what to do with dismember vs DRS. I am currently on the white version of Eldrazi. Is DRS that big a threat in the shardless or even grixis matchup, or should I be saving dismember vs the inevitable gofy or angler?

Eldariel
04-18-2016, 04:31 PM
Barook, can you link to the page your current build is on? Or post it here?

Im pretty happy with where the colorless version has got me but im thinking I should finally try out the white splash version.

I believe it's still this (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/398533#online):

Creatures
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Brushland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory


Sideboard
1 Karakas
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Leyline of the Void
3 All Is Dust
2 World Breaker

Alex_UNLIMITED
04-18-2016, 06:14 PM
Did anyone thought about Chaos Warp? It's a good response to Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge and Moat.

Barook
04-18-2016, 06:50 PM
Did anyone thought about Chaos Warp? It's a good response to Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge and Moat.
It certainly is an interesting card. But let's assume you even run the RW Painland: How are you getting enough red mana to support outside of Blood Moon situations? That's my main concern, aside from random bad luck in the replacement drops.

Cire
04-18-2016, 06:56 PM
Yeah, the deck can barely handle splashes into non-eldrazi cards in any color other than white (due to Karakas) and black (due to Urborg).

Edit: to run a colored non-eldrazi card you need at least 8-9 sources of colored mana for that card not including caverns. Not inlcuding Lotud petals you probably need 4-6 lands that produce that color. The simple fact is at this point, running those types of lands instead of wasteland or factory seems to be the inferior choice. I do like expirementing (hey - i'm having fun messing with Riftstone Portal!) though. Chaos warp might be a good choice to fight blood moon decks since the above problems with the mana base wouldn't apply!

Barook
04-18-2016, 08:45 PM
Finished another league run. Another 5-0. :tongue: 23-2 and still going strong. 92% win rate is insane. 1897 rating - so close. :eek:

R4 vs Miracles. 2-1 (Mentors either MD or SB, can't tell)
R5 vs Legendary Miracles 2-1

Lost G2 in both matches to Blood Moon (and the downright stonecold nuts in R4 in general with double Mentor and savage topdecks). Given the increase of it in the current online meta (15% right now), I'm reconsidering my position on it regarding the sideboard. Two Wastes is probably the most reliable tech, but I'm having a hard time finding cuts:

I really want to keep my third Karakas for Reanimator/S&T bullshit.
The Leylines and 3 copies of All is Dust are also not debatable.
3rd Dismember and 3rd Warping Wail are too good to pass, too.

Which leaves the potential cuts at World Breaker, Thorn & Displacer. I'm considering moving the 4th Displacer to the main in the spot of a Matter Reshaper and cutting a Thorn. I really like World Breaker and want to have more than one out against problematic artifacts/permanents. Thorn has been "okay" for me at best and the decks were we would bring it in are positive in general anyway, especially Storm. But then again, I bring Thorn in against roughly ~21% of the meta vs 15+% (and probably rising) Blood Moons. I'd like to hear feedback regarding 4 Displacers in the main with the current manabase from the people who run a 4 Displacer/3 Matter Reshaper split. Looking at my previous mana math, 11 vs 12 sources are roughly 3% in the early turns, so I might be overreacting in that regard.

On a different note:
I want to discuss this particular situation, contents of the opponent's hand are completely unknown (http://i.imgur.com/6HRA65S.jpg). Would you have played All is Dust or World Breaker in my spot?

btm10
04-18-2016, 09:40 PM
I'd cast World Breaker. Your opponent can't Terminus, Force, or Swords, and that leaves you dead to...exactly Jace exactly on top? Vendillion Clique in the top 4 can beat you, but only over the course of two turns and there's no guarantee that your opponent Cliques you rather than themselves. Seems very low risk. He's forced to chump at least once in any other scenario involving Jace, White souce + Plow is +1 life before he attacks, but you'd get to All is Dust the next turn and survive at 1, Terminus on your upkeep is a wash and your cheap Eldrazi are all live topdecks.

Barook
04-18-2016, 09:54 PM
I'd cast World Breaker. Your opponent can't Terminus, Force, or Swords, and that leaves you dead to...exactly Jace exactly on top? Vendillion Clique in the top 4 can beat you, but only over the course of two turns and there's no guarantee that your opponent Cliques you rather than themselves. Seems very low risk. He's forced to chump at least once in any other scenario involving Jace, White souce + Plow is +1 life before he attacks, but you'd get to All is Dust the next turn and survive at 1, Terminus on your upkeep is a wash and your cheap Eldrazi are all live topdecks.
You forgot about Snapcaster, which was my biggest concern in my calculations.

I went for All is Dust, which turned out to be the right decision (http://i.imgur.com/lWxIxNe.jpg). He found another Snapcaster in his top 3. He could have swung with both Snap and Venser, leaving me at 2 & unable to cast All is Dust while his second Snappy would have chumped my Breaker. I would have died on the backswing then.

With my line, I was able to cast World Breaker, leaving me at 2 life due to a topdecked Brushland, forcing him on chumping duty and killed him a turn later.

darkgh0st
04-19-2016, 12:01 AM
There were more outs for him if you casted World Breaker, so AiD was the right play. I've made that "cast a creature to chump" mistake vs Miracles before, and would love not to make that again in the future. Once again, good job!

@SB: Would you cut 1 World Breaker? Eye can tutor it up after all. Or 2 is a right number there?

DavidHernandez
04-19-2016, 12:33 AM
Finished another league run. Another 5-0. :tongue: 23-2 and still going strong. 92% win rate is insane. 1897 rating - so close. :eek:

R4 vs Miracles. 2-1 (Mentors either MD or SB, can't tell)
R5 vs Legendary Miracles 2-1

Lost G2 in both matches to Blood Moon (and the downright stonecold nuts in R4 in general with double Mentor and savage topdecks). Given the increase of it in the current online meta (15% right now), I'm reconsidering my position on it regarding the sideboard. Two Wastes is probably the most reliable tech, but I'm having a hard time finding cuts:

I really want to keep my third Karakas for Reanimator/S&T bullshit.
The Leylines and 3 copies of All is Dust are also not debatable.
3rd Dismember and 3rd Warping Wail are too good to pass, too.

Which leaves the potential cuts at World Breaker, Thorn & Displacer. I'm considering moving the 4th Displacer to the main in the spot of a Matter Reshaper and cutting a Thorn. I really like World Breaker and want to have more than one out against problematic artifacts/permanents. Thorn has been "okay" for me at best and the decks were we would bring it in are positive in general anyway, especially Storm. But then again, I bring Thorn in against roughly ~21% of the meta vs 15+% (and probably rising) Blood Moons. I'd like to hear feedback regarding 4 Displacers in the main with the current manabase from the people who run a 4 Displacer/3 Matter Reshaper split. Looking at my previous mana math, 11 vs 12 sources are roughly 3% in the early turns, so I might be overreacting in that regard.

On a different note:
I want to discuss this particular situation, contents of the opponent's hand are completely unknown (http://i.imgur.com/6HRA65S.jpg). Would you have played All is Dust or World Breaker in my spot?

All Is Dust. With his board position I prefer to board wipe.

MD.Ghost
04-19-2016, 02:51 AM
Finished another league run. Another 5-0. :tongue: 23-2 and still going strong. 92% win rate is insane. 1897 rating - so close. :eek:

R4 vs Miracles. 2-1 (Mentors either MD or SB, can't tell)
R5 vs Legendary Miracles 2-1

Lost G2 in both matches to Blood Moon (and the downright stonecold nuts in R4 in general with double Mentor and savage topdecks). Given the increase of it in the current online meta (15% right now), I'm reconsidering my position on it regarding the sideboard. Two Wastes is probably the most reliable tech, but I'm having a hard time finding cuts

Gratz for another 5:0 run!

As you already know, i would run with 2 Wastes - it's important, that Wastes are not the only answer, its simply one more answer with benefits (uncounterable, land, path, explorer etc.). As you see i cutted 1 World Breaker, because even if i like this buddy, one should be enough in most cases (he is still a cc7 card, which is even more important under a moon...). As i mentioned, one Wastes (<c>) is enough to stay in the game vs moon. Rely on 5 cards with cc7 (3 All is Dust, 2 Breaker) against moon was simply to slow for me, especially if 2 of them needed additional "Green" from Petals.

So if your other cards are set in stone for now i would cut 1 World Breaker and 1 Displacer. Note: I am not sure that a 4th Displayer will work good at Main with that Manabase (but you can also trim one Mishra for a 3rd Brushland or 3rd Karakas for the MODO Meta, or try one Talisman over Petal which provides "W" for more than one shot), i am more than happy with 3 Displacer at 75 cards for now - and i am still one of its follower from the start.

Barook
04-19-2016, 06:02 AM
@SB: Would you cut 1 World Breaker? Eye can tutor it up after all. Or 2 is a right number there?
Tutoring is often too slow and not even feasable in the majority of the match-ups.

@MD.Ghost: I'll do some theorycrafting and goldfishing regarding the 4th MD Displacer and see how I like it. Changing the manabase is imho not an option as it's fairly balanced right now. I'll also look into cutting the 2nd World Breaker since it's on the list of potential cuts, but my gut feeling is telling me that I want two for consistency reasons and having more than a one-shot solution. As I mentioned before, World Breaker with only Petals shouldn't be considered a solution to Blood Moon. I'm well aware of the other benefits of Wastes as they sometimes come up, although rarely.

talpa
04-19-2016, 06:11 AM
@Barook
Congratulations on your result, may I ask you a few question?

How do you feel running no thorn maindeck and only 2 in sideboard against combo matchups? It seems to me that Chalices and Seer with no Revokers backup nor Spheres effect, and only two Wails is way too few. How many of your 25 opponents were on combo?

I read that you are a great fan of All is Dust, how often do you come up with seven mana?

LESS important, I don't like petals very much, but I understand them. I don't have any experience with the "mono-W" list, but it seems to me that Rest in Peace and Disenchant are way too strong (and preferrable to Leylines that I particularly dislike, I don't want to mulligan aggressively nor to draw another clunky piece that remains stuck in your hand in a deck that cannot cantrip). Of course this would require a more white manabase, which you tested, and would cost you the Mishra's, which I understand is hard. But isn't it worth it to have RiP, possibly again the combo with Containment Priest, and all that white has to offer in sideboard?

Barook
04-19-2016, 07:01 AM
@Barook
Congratulations on your result, may I ask you a few question?

How do you feel running no thorn maindeck and only 2 in sideboard against combo matchups? It seems to me that Chalices and Seer with no Revokers backup nor Spheres effect, and only two Wails is way too few. How many of your 25 opponents were on combo?

I read that you are a great fan of All is Dust, how often do you come up with seven mana?

LESS important, I don't like petals very much, but I understand them. I don't have any experience with the "mono-W" list, but it seems to me that Rest in Peace and Disenchant are way too strong (and preferrable to Leylines that I particularly dislike, I don't want to mulligan aggressively nor to draw another clunky piece that remains stuck in your hand in a deck that cannot cantrip). Of course this would require a more white manabase, which you tested, and would cost you the Mishra's, which I understand is hard. But isn't it worth it to have RiP, possibly again the combo with Containment Priest, and all that white has to offer in sideboard?
I don't really miss them. Hell, I'm even considering cutting one from the SB.

Combo match-ups so far were:
2-1 Sneak & Show (one of my only two losses due being too greedy G2 & G3 by keeping hands without proper hate)
4-0 Storm (1x TES, 3x ANT)
1-0 Chaos Elves
2-0 Reanimator

Note that Storm is a clean 8-0 in games. Pre-board is already horribly for them and it only gets worse afterwards.

About All is Dust: As long as heavy mana disruption isn't involved, the 7 mana come up often enough.

Mana: I've played a white-heavier version before, but the mana base can't really support it without sacrifing Factory - and you do want Factory for various reasons. RiP can be too slow against stuff like Reanimator, can be countered and most notably, decayed (almost half the online meta runs Decay now, like 45+%). Disenchant effects are nice, but suffer from the mana requirement. Same goes for Containment Priest - and I love the Containment Priest combo with Displacer. Leyline has heavy drawbacks, but probably still gets the job done best. I've played so many variants before and I can't really argue with the results of the current list.

Eldariel
04-19-2016, 08:43 AM
Hey Barook, I remember you used to test Grim Monoliths a while ago. It still presents an obvious solution to Blood Moon-style effects while simultaneously acting as a ramp card for all those 7-drops. What were your conclusions? Why'd you end up cutting it and is there an alternative world/metagame where you could imagine using it? Or would it fuel a different build?

Barook
04-19-2016, 11:26 AM
Hey Barook, I remember you used to test Grim Monoliths a while ago. It still presents an obvious solution to Blood Moon-style effects while simultaneously acting as a ramp card for all those 7-drops. What were your conclusions? Why'd you end up cutting it and is there an alternative world/metagame where you could imagine using it? Or would it fuel a different build?
I merely cut it for space reasons because Blood Moon was less relevant at that point (and because it is expensive on MTGO). I never really reached a conclusion on that due to lack of testing in an actual, competitive environment. It could very well go into the Wastes spot, but thing is that Miracles can spam Wear (+ Snapcaster) even under Blood Moon while they can't touch Wastes - at all. Having an out for random Veteran Explorers, Paths and From the Ashes might be fancy as well, but that would require you to know when to board in Wastes in the first place.

If somebody has the Monoliths and wants to test it as anti-BM tech, I'm very interested in the results. Fueling World Breakers and Eye still sounds nice. Question is if the mana boost is worth being attackable by artifact hate and counters compared to Wastes which don't give a single fuck what your opponent does.

Silverflame
04-19-2016, 02:25 PM
Hello, I've been playing MUD for years, but have been amazed at this deck's consistency and win ratio. I tried a few builds and so far Barook's been the top contender. I am building it on paper for a big tournament about one month from now, so I was wondering if there is a way to minimize the bad matchups (especillay Lands) without compromising MD consistency.

Kami
04-19-2016, 02:42 PM
First of all, sorry by my poor english...

What about tendo ice bridge?

We will need probably just one colored mana along the first game anyway for eldrazi displacer (multiples are redundant).
This way we'll have colored mana for other eldrazis in the side along with world breaker (vile, bearer etc).
And its easier to cast dismember without life loss and leyline of the void if it's stuck in hand with 2-3 tendo + 3-4 petal (ok, it's a borderline situation). And it's possible to add 1 or 2 other colored spells if we are going that way (1 toxic deluge in side for tech?)
And of course, no life loss from pain lands.

All marginal gains, but i think that's a valid test.

I'm thinking in something like:

LANDS – 24
4 Ancient tomb
4 Eldrazi temple
3 Eye of ugin
2 city of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
3 Tendo ice bridge
2 Mishra's factory
1 Karakas
1 Flex - urborg, karakas, wasteland or factory

CRIATURAS – 23
4 Mimic
4 Matter
4 Vidente
4 Reality
4 Endless one
3 Displacer

OUTROS – 13
4 Chalice
4 Petal
2 Jitte
2 Wail
1 Dismember (yes... not ideal, but ok)


SIDE – 15
4 Leyline
3 All is dust
2 Thorn of amethyst
2 Wastes (debatable, could be anything vs moon/b2b/wastelock)
2 World breaker
1 Toxic deluge
1 Flex - Faerie macabre (i like extra hate) or another dismember, deluge or wail

1mpulse
04-19-2016, 06:50 PM
If somebody has the Monoliths and wants to test it as anti-BM tech, I'm very interested in the results. Fueling World Breakers and Eye still sounds nice. Question is if the mana boost is worth being attackable by artifact hate and counters compared to Wastes which don't give a single fuck what your opponent does.

I've actually been testing Grim Monolith, as I play a colorless version and Guides didn't impress me.

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Warping Wail
3 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldraz Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg
1 Karakas

2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Winter Orb
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Endbringer
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Results have been decent for me so far, but I've only been trying it out for about 2 weeks. The deck is basically per-boarded against Blood Moon decks, allows for more constant activations of Eye of Ugin, turn 2 Endbringer against non-Plow decks, allows your Endless Ones to get ridiculously big and allows for an Ulamog in the sideboard to be reasonable.

Barook
04-19-2016, 07:25 PM
@1mpulse: How problematic have been counters/artifact destruction under Blood Moon?

@Silverflame: Glad to hear you like it. Displacer is your best bet vs Lands. It can prevent Marit Lage kills as long as it's on the board while Karakas is weak to Wasteland and Port. The match is still highly problematic due Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, Port and Wasteland (locks), though. I don't think there are good ways to improve the match-up without compromising the MD. It's a rare match-up, so hoping to dodge it or getting lucky with Displacer or a fast Chalice @1/@2 is certainly a plan, although not the best one.

darkgh0st
04-19-2016, 08:44 PM
@Grim Monolith: I was running 4 in the colorless version. It definitely felt too much, as the highest end of the curve is 7 (eye activation). It did save me two games, once gainst SnT and once against Miracles against Blood Moon. Both players kept hands without counterspells thinking that BM would be game for them. I'd recommend 2 MD, 1 SB, but 3 MD shouldn't be bad, and that is for the colorless version. I don't have the white list completed ATM, so I can't test that, but I can imagine the white list has a very different feel to it and would be akward with Grim Monoliths.

1mpulse
04-20-2016, 12:14 AM
@1mpulse: How problematic have been counters/artifact destruction under Blood Moon?

Haven't had a problem particularly with either yet at this point, but I haven't tested the Miracles matchup a ton yet (since it seems rather favorable overall it wasn't at the top of my list). Miracles should be boarding out Counterbalance, so that doesn't leave them with a ton of actual counters. The one time time a Miracles player did resolve a Blood Moon on me, it was already too late for him (had a turn 1 Thorn).

For dedicated Blood Moon decks, I've tested a bit against Moggcatcher Stompy, but Tuk-Tuk was always too slow, and those style decks can't beat a Smasher or Endbringer.

I definitely agree that you should probably only look at Monolith for the colorless version though.

maraxusofkelds
04-20-2016, 01:47 AM
Which leaves the potential cuts at World Breaker, Thorn & Displacer. I'm considering moving the 4th Displacer to the main in the spot of a Matter Reshaper and cutting a Thorn. I really like World Breaker and want to have more than one out against problematic artifacts/permanents. Thorn has been "okay" for me at best and the decks were we would bring it in are positive in general anyway, especially Storm. But then again, I bring Thorn in against roughly ~21% of the meta vs 15+% (and probably rising) Blood Moons. I'd like to hear feedback regarding 4 Displacers in the main with the current manabase from the people who run a 4 Displacer/3 Matter Reshaper split. Looking at my previous mana math, 11 vs 12 sources are roughly 3% in the early turns, so I might be overreacting in that regard.

I'd say drop the Displacer. Displacer shares some overlap with the Karakas in the sideboard as being good vs reanimator and show n tell, but much slower. In place of it, I have been running a single Crucible of Worlds. The most painful part of playing eldrazi is getting mana locked by wastelands early or having to use city of traitors in a bad spot. Crucible coming in vs delvers like grixis or even KOTR decks that target our mana base has been incredible and far more useful that most of the other cards in the sideboard.


Anyway Barook quick question for the eldrazi master. How do you go about playing the shardless bug matchup besides trying to overwhelm them early? Do you care at all about their deathrite or do you save the dismembers for strixes and the tarmogofys for tempo?

cab0747
04-20-2016, 08:30 AM
@Barook

First, thanks for all of the input you have provided in this thread. It is appreciated.

Second, what are your thoughts about running horizon canopy in the Brushlands slot or do you think the lack of painless/colorless mana would hurt too much?

Again, thank you for providing so much. You have convinced me to try out the Wg list.

Sansian
04-20-2016, 11:39 AM
@Barook

Second, what are your thoughts about running horizon canopy in the Brushlands slot or do you think the lack of painless/colorless mana would hurt too much?.

The Brushlands are in there because they make colorless and occasionally white... and rarely green. If not for the colorless part you may as well run Savannah. With that in mind, Canopy isn't really much of an option since it can't cast most of the creatures in the deck and honestly I believe this deck's mana is its weakest point.

Barook
04-20-2016, 11:43 AM
I'd say drop the Displacer. Displacer shares some overlap with the Karakas in the sideboard as being good vs reanimator and show n tell, but much slower. In place of it, I have been running a single Crucible of Worlds. The most painful part of playing eldrazi is getting mana locked by wastelands early or having to use city of traitors in a bad spot. Crucible coming in vs delvers like grixis or even KOTR decks that target our mana base has been incredible and far more useful that most of the other cards in the sideboard.

Anyway Barook quick question for the eldrazi master. How do you go about playing the shardless bug matchup besides trying to overwhelm them early? Do you care at all about their deathrite or do you save the dismembers for strixes and the tarmogofys for tempo?
Displacer and Karakas have nothing in common aside from the :w: mana symbol & disabling legends. Less than 4 Displacers in the 75 is not an option due to their massive impact in many matches. Cutting your strongest cards just "because reasons" is a very bad approach. You want to draw it and since we lack library manipulation, you need to run enough copies to ensure to draw the card when you need it. Some logic behind 3x All is Dust.

Wastelands hurt, but I don't see a point when you can barely utilize CoW with your own strategy. If the deck ran a full playset of Wastelands and Factories, it would be debatable. But siding it in, hoping your opponent wastes your lands or that you draw double City, sounds like the worst plan ever.

As for the Shardless match-up, that's something I can't clearly answer as it depends on too many factors:
- Are you on the play or the draw?
- How many T1 drops do you have?
- Can you T2 TKS?
- Is your removal Wail or Dismember?
- Can you put Leyline into play?
etc.

In the end, it boils down if I can afford to let a DRS do its thing or if a Strix hinders my plan harder. If you hit DRS, they could play Strix next turn. If you wait for Strix, it's possible they don't have it. Either decision could turn out wrong. At best, it's educated guesswork.

@cab0747: Canopy can't provide C and always pings you (which is highly relevant & painful). Thus, it's not a viable option.

Kami
04-20-2016, 12:56 PM
We need <C> more often than not, so canopy (and similar lands) just don't worth it.
I think we have 1 or 2 land slots that dont produce <C>, and these slots are for karakas and/or urborg.

I had really good results with tendo ice bridge. Only in one match i would need an extra colored mana from it, in all other matches when needed there was always another source in mid game or before.

I tried talisman as well... It doesnt work. Maybe in the 2x wastes slots in the sideboard? That way we would fix the deck against blood moon, b2b and mana denial, and gain an extra colored mana source.

metronome2charisma
04-20-2016, 11:09 PM
4-0 tonight, sort of . Round one bye. Played painter stone, eldrazi, and tes. Pretty easy night.

Drake0525
04-21-2016, 11:10 AM
Hi everyone!

I've been working on building Eldrazi for a couple of weeks now, and I've been lurking on this thread looking to learn the ins and outs. I finally solidified my 75 last night, so I thought it was time to get feedback. I also have a few questions about the archetype.

First, here's what I'm starting with:

4x Eldrazi Mimic
4x Endless One
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Endbringer

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Dismember
2x Warping Wail

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Eye of Ugin
3x Corrupted Crossroads
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
3x Grim Monolith
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Worldbreaker
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Dismember
3x All is Dust

As you can see, I landed on the WG splash. I understand Displacer does a lot of work to shore up tough match-ups like BUG and Sneak-Show. I know I'm missing Karakas and Jitte. Unfortunately, I don't have the capital for Karakas at the moment. Jitte I will be working on getting, the card is far too powerful to exclude - I am not expecting a mirror match at my local meta, so I should be able to work around that for the time being. I'm hoping to see reprints of both those cards in Eternal Masters, but we'll have to wait and see about that.

- I'm a little ambivalent about Urborg. I'm seeing chatter that this card tends to help our opponents. Should I consider cutting this card for another Corrupted Crossroads?
- Speaking of Corrupted Crossroads, is there any consensus on whether this or Brushlands works better in this deck?
- I wanted to run a full playset of Thorn in the main - I feel like that would punish a lot of decks in Legacy, but once I decided to include Eldrazi Displacer, I had to cut 2x Thorns to the sideboard. Should I even be running 4x Thorns in the 75? Cutting the 2x Thorns out of the board would open up slots for something like Phyrexian Revoker, or Pithing Needle.

Any feedback you guys could offer would be much appreciated! Thanks!

darkgh0st
04-21-2016, 11:25 AM
@Drake: no consensus on the Corrupted Crossroads. I use them to hide the color and possibly play other colored Eldrazi. Use Brushland if you want other Green and White spells.

4 Thorns is punishing to us as well. All I can say is that aggro decks need to pressure. Casting Thorn isn't pressure but may slow down opponents long enough for you to pressure them. Casting the 2nd Thorn for the most part, is a liability to us because it robs a turn from us. Casting multiple Thorns does not guarantee a lock either. You also have to look at how relevant Thorn is late game (bad topdeck) and in your meta (probably just the 3rd in SB, depends)