[Deck] 5/3

[Evil Roopey]

So, I just scrubbed out of the Duel for Duals with possibly the most fun deck I've ever played in my life. It literally was just a blast to play, and a blast to watch as well. I doubt it is very fun to play against though. I obviously took it into the tournament with an amazing Goblins and Gro match-up, then didn't play them the first 3 rounds, and lost. :/

Well, here it is:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [6E] Crystal Vein

// Creatures
4 [U] Juggernaut
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast (2)
3 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [CHK] Uba Mask
SB: 4 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid


In testing the deck had an incredible 7-3 matchup against Goblins, and I don't remember losing to Gro. It just stomped face.

The only problem is the fact that the entire strategy of the deck is built around going first. If you are on the draw, your draws are significantly worse.

There was quite a fair bit of Deadguy there, and that is apparently a bad matchup. This will probably be the first time Deadguy actually does well, hopefully not though.

Thoughts?

[Citrus-God]

That deck looks friggin fun to play. Why no Tangle Wires? You also have 8 Chalices. 4 Maindecked, and 4 SBed. I guess you can replace the ones in the SB with I dunno, Tangle Wires.

Arcbound Ravager, that card seems very out of place in here.

I'm gonna try this deck out on MWS.

[Lego]

How are the Ravagers in the deck? They seem a bit out of place. Chimeric Idol is a possibility, but has no synergy with Rishadan Port. Myr Enforcer also might be a possibility, have you tried him? Really bad initial play, but after a Mox Diamond, Chalice, and creature, he's basically a Su-Chi. Late game he's even better.

[Bane of the Living]

Can you get us a tourny report of some kind? What exacty did you play against and lose to? I've been playing stax and I like the way this deck is aggro stax. Im definitly gonna give it a go. Kinda nervous about shattering spree tho. You'll definitly need to sideboard Hanna's Custody.

[Zilla]

I like the overall look of the deck... very simple and straightforward. I agree that the Ravagers look a bit out of place, but I assume there's a reason you chose them over, say, Triskelion.

Also, it seems like your manabase is a bit shaky, even with 24 sources. The fact that Mox costs you lands, and Cities/Veins have a tendency to ggo away pretty quickly, it seems like you're pretty heavily reliant on Crucible to have a stable basse in the lategame. Am I wrong about this?

[Alfred]

Why not Masticore in the Ravager Spot? Masticore is an absolute beating against anything with creatures in it, and against pretty much anything in general.

[Afro]

Why not Masticore in the Ravager Spot? Masticore is an absolute beating against anything with creatures in it, and against pretty much anything in general.

While I agree that the ravager is way out of place in this deck, I don't know if this deck could support the discard AND mana investment. I personally would test out Synod Centurion from Fifth Dawn. I think it is safe to say that you have enough artifacts.

Back when the format switched to what it is now I know that Lunchbox, Jander, myself, and even Peter Rotten all dabbled in what Rotten likes to refer as "Big Brown Beatin!" Some ran red for welder/bolts/jets/shrapnel blasts while others went blue for TFK and the like.

Some other cards that were played that I don't see here that you might want to try and test.

Synod Centurion: Like I said before I like this guy in this deck. Another 4/4 beater is goods.

Lightning Greaves: Hasty big beats are the tits but this also becomes a liability with so much other equipment in the deck. I personally loved its ability to protect Su-Chi's from most removal in the format and not having it be a 4 point bolt for the opponent.

Tangle Wire: I would most definitly try to get this in the deck. I have much love for the card especially with big beats and ports/wastes.

[Evil Roopey]

Synod Centurion: Like I said before I like this guy in this deck. Another 4/4 beater is goods.

I couldn't find any. StarCity didn't have any, and no one had any with them for trade. The list I ran definatly needs tweaking and is far from optimal.

To defend running Ravager, I wanted a 2-drop and he happened to be the best one in the game. We couldn't find anything better for a mono-brown.

Also, this deck was built on sight the day before the tournament. It went through some, but not a lot, of testing on before I purely decided to play it because it was rediculously fun. I will be working on an optimal list sometime this week, and see what I can do with it.

Roop

[Anusien]

To be fair, the deck really really wants a creature at a low mana cost, and Ravager happens to be an absolute beating. I saw this deck chuck away land after land (and incidentally, I'd go up to about 26+ lands). I think the deck can afford a splash, and I'd really consider one.

Options:
Red for Pyroclasm versus Goblins
Blue for Brainstorm, Thoughtcast
Green for Exploration
White for Suppression Field (probably not an option)

[Citrus-God]

ahh... I think Ravagers are there to make Mana with Su Chi.

[Bane of the Living]

Roopey sad to know you didnt take Nausea.

I've been running this deck and I have to say it needs trample.. How the hell can you give your men trample tho? I dont like Synod Centurion. Id rather play Phyrexian Processor. As long as you board it out game 2 you dont have to worry about artifact hate hitting it.

Have you thought about Hanna's Custody? This card is so good in your deck you could maybe maindeck it. It isnt good with equipment but it's amazing since it makes all your men and lock pieces untouchable.

Speaking of equipment. Did you consider Cranial Plating? You don't run many artifact lands but if you did, nasty nasty.

[subway-guy]

wow omg soooo much fun but why are you running lockpeices be more agresive as all this deck does is turn 1-2 fat win. masticore should be goooood as if turn 1-2 mtcor is great it discards bad stuff and keeps the board free of creatures like a wee bear
mabe
-Steel Golem ( cool)
-Complex Automaton (fat HAHAHA #7):tongue:
-Extruder (duno bad ravenger):cry:
-Grid Monitor (faty)
-Thran War Machine ( bad juggy)
-Synod Centurion (fat)
this deck plays a fast creature folows with another or a equipment and win not control the board for a long game:laugh:

[Lego]

Gruul War Plow gives your dudes trample, but to really be effective you'd need to splash two colors, which sucks.

[Evil Roopey]

wow omg soooo much fun but why are you running lockpeices be more agresive as all this deck does is turn 1-2 fat win. masticore should be goooood as if turn 1-2 mtcor is great it discards bad stuff and keeps the board free of creatures like a wee bear
mabe
-Steel Golem ( cool)
-Complex Automaton (fat HAHAHA #7):tongue:
-Extruder (duno bad ravenger):cry:
-Grid Monitor (faty)
-Thran War Machine ( bad juggy)
-Synod Centurion (fat)
this deck plays a fast creature folows with another or a equipment and win not control the board for a long game:laugh:

The lock pieces are meant for the early game. Being able to Chalice for 1 stopping a lot of the removal or 3sphere just to stop them, really compliments the gameplan of the deck.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I come bearing tourney reports!

Before I begin though, I think I should give my decklist, which is a little different then the original posted:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Archeoligical Dig
4 Ancient Den
4 Crystal Vein

4 Synod Centurion
4 Frogmite
4 Juggernaut
3 Phyrexian War Beast

4 Helm of Awakening
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Jitte
3 SOFI

SB:
4 Hanna's Custody
4 StP
4 Defense Grid
3 Disenchant

Now this was only an 8 person tourney and was single elim.

Round 1: B/W Deadguy
2-1
Game 1: I open the game with Ancient Tomb, Diamond, Helm, Frog. Then i rip a SOFI and play a city, equip and ride the frog to victory.
Game 2: I drop a Helm and a jitte and say go. He drops 2 Confidants. I continue to not have creatures while his dudes rip me down.
Game 3: I start with a delicous 1st turn juggernaut, followed by a topdeck of another juggernaut. Then i drop SOFI and equip and my opponent folds.

Round 2: Solidarity
2-1
Game 1: I mulligan down to 3 and he combo's off 4th turn
Game 2: I drop 1st turn Defense grid, then 2nd Turn juggernaut. I then drop 3rd turn Defense Grid again and ride the juggy to the W.
Game 3: I actually opened this hand:
Ancient Den
Hanna's Custody
Ancient Tomb
Defense Grid
Defense Grid
Mox Diamond
City of Traitors

Needless to say, I won because my opponent scooped.

Finals: U/G/R thresh
2-0

Game 1: I go first and drop 1st turn juggy. Then I play SOFI and equip. He blocks with his wearbear, then he drops 2 mongeese. I topdeck a jitte and went to town on this man. After he blocks with both geese, i swing in for a bone-crushing 13 and my opponent packs up.

Game 2: He got really mana screwed and mulled to 4. I dropped a 1st turn Sphere, then 2nd turn Centurion. I get to smash him a couple times before he gets a dragon down. I topdeck Jitte and equip and swing, he chooses not to block, so in response to him getting threshold, i remove the 2 counters and eat his dragon. He tapped out and I swung in for game point.

Overall, this deck is rediculously fun to play and if nobody packs hate, your looking at a pretty consistent win ratio. The white splash was nice, but I didnt get to see a lot of artifact hate against me, so the custodies werent amazing. Im planning on playing this deck at our weekly tourney on sunday and ill have those results then

[Afro]

I come bearing tourney reports!

Before I begin though, I think I should give my decklist, which is a little different then the original posted:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Archeoligical Dig
4 Ancient Den
4 Crystal Vein

4 Synod Centurion
4 Frogmite
4 Juggernaut
3 Phyrexian War Beast

4 Helm of Awakening
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Jitte
3 SOFI

SB:
4 Hanna's Custody
4 StP
4 Defense Grid
3 Disenchant



Nice list! I have a couple observations -

1) Why use Archeoligical Dig? From what I see it makes no sense with the list that you are running to play this card over, say, a plains. Is the reason for this for a wider possible sideboard? If not then why not just run Darksteel Citadel like Roopey which combos well with Centurion.

2) STP possibly main? Just curious as to why you kept this out of the maindeck. Your list looks pretty tight which I suspect is what caused it.

3) Creature count compared to Equipment count. In testing have you found that you are often sitting with one or more equipment on the table/in hand and have no critters? Just curious.

4) Lack of Su-Chi. Like this call. Too much removal and often in my experience I have found that a 4 point bolt + damage taken from your tombs often spells a game loss.

Please keep me updated with your progress with the deck! This is my kind of deck right here.

[Skullclamping]

are helms good enough to run them?

[Finn]

You're opponent scooped to an opening hand with no win condition in it? I have to figure that he was simply upset about the remarkable luck of two Defense Grids in your opening hand twice in a row. Did you remind him that he has Turnabout in the deck after the match? Seeing as how you were not going to be actually doing damage to him for a while, he would have had plenty of time.


@Roop: Why Phyrexian War Beast instead of Cathodion?

[Evil Roopey]

You're opponent scooped to an opening hand with no win condition in it? I have to figure that he was simply upset about the remarkable luck of two Defense Grids in your opening hand twice in a row. Did you remind him that he has Turnabout in the deck after the match? Seeing as how you were not going to be actually doing damage to him for a while, he would have had plenty of time.


@Roop: Why Phyrexian War Beast instead of Cathodion?


For the same reason it was run over Cathodian back in the day, Bolt.

At SMG's list, why Frog? He seems poor. The lack of Chalice scares the hell out of me, and only 3 3Spheres seems poor since you want to play it on turn 1...? Helm also seems like a poor choice. Just all around, I'm not sure if I like the list. Can we get a more indepth explanaition for these cards?

[Bane of the Living]

I agree. Frog doesn't seem as good as Ravager first off. Especially with only 4 artifact lands. You could be paying 3 for him alot. He's also not a game winner without equipment, where as Ravager can actually gro throughout the game, so that if you opponent doesnt deal with him theyll eventually be forced to. He also has modular. Making dead SoFI and he +2/+2 to a Juggy. The ability to sac your Su Chi to Rav on your main phase isnt amazingly important but its still there.

Trinisphere is almost something I want to play 4 of in this deck, same with Angel Stax. Turn 1 Sphere wins so many games it's not even funny. Also Chalice for 1 wins games by itself, and also nullifies alot of removal your men would otherwise be seeing. My list is close to Roopys.


4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Den

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
4 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Arcbound Ravager

3 Hanna's Custody
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Uba Mask
4 Winter Orb
4 Defense Grid

The list looks more like an aggro stax deck. I really feel the inclusion of Hanna's Custody maindeck really helps you. The equipment was nice but often overkill. Or drawing things like 1 man 2 equipment happened alot. And my Su Chi would bite the dust thanks to a swords. When all your fatties are untargetable thats pretty scary. It helps Chalice stay in play which is pretty important. Custody is bad with Ravager but thats it. I'm still going to try the version with equipment but I really felt like this deck was dying for a few Smokestack. It already has half the lock pieces.

[Evil Roopey]

I agree. Frog doesn't seem as good as Ravager first off. Especially with only 4 artifact lands. You could be paying 3 for him alot. He's also not a game winner without equipment, where as Ravager can actually gro throughout the game, so that if you opponent doesnt deal with him theyll eventually be forced to. He also has modular. Making dead SoFI and he +2/+2 to a Juggy. The ability to sac your Su Chi to Rav on your main phase isnt amazingly important but its still there.

Trinisphere is almost something I want to play 4 of in this deck, same with Angel Stax. Turn 1 Sphere wins so many games it's not even funny. Also Chalice for 1 wins games by itself, and also nullifies alot of removal your men would otherwise be seeing. My list is close to Roopys.


4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Den

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
4 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Arcbound Ravager

3 Hanna's Custody
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Uba Mask
4 Winter Orb
4 Defense Grid

The list looks more like an aggro stax deck. I really feel the inclusion of Hanna's Custody maindeck really helps you. The equipment was nice but often overkill. Or drawing things like 1 man 2 equipment happened alot. And my Su Chi would bite the dust thanks to a swords. When all your fatties are untargetable thats pretty scary. It helps Chalice stay in play which is pretty important. Custody is bad with Ravager but thats it. I'm still going to try the version with equipment but I really felt like this deck was dying for a few Smokestack. It already has half the lock pieces.

I wouldn't say the equipment was overkill, it just puts your opponent in an almost unwinnable situation most the time. I don't know if I would cut it, and if I ever did the first card to go into the deck would be Tangle Wire. Wire might be overlooked because I didn't play it, but I just couldn't fit it. Finding room for Wires is probably top priority to making this deck better. I think that the skeleton that was outlined by the initial build needs to be kept though, which makes cutting anything really hard.

[Bane of the Living]

Well I kept pretty much everything in the initial list. I changed the Crystal Veins to Ancient Den. To support the white cards and to add more artifacts for the overall usefullness Ravager holds. With Hanna's C you also have 8 untargetable lands. Helps against Dead Guy Ale.

Taking out the equipment is a decent trade for the Custodys. Maybe they aren't maindeck material, but I think it's at least worth a shot. Smokestack should really be run in the deck. I dont see any arguement to not be playing it.. Since everything in the deck is a permanent you can put stax to 1 even without a crucible. It can go to 2 with it, which just ends the game very quickly. I'll try out these changes and get back to you, but like I said Im not giving up on the equipment, I'll switch back and forth.

[Evil Roopey]

Well I kept pretty much everything in the initial list. I changed the Crystal Veins to Ancient Den. To support the white cards and to add more artifacts for the overall usefullness Ravager holds. With Hanna's C you also have 8 untargetable lands. Helps against Dead Guy Ale.

Taking out the equipment is a decend trade for the Custodys. Maybe they aren't maindeck material, but I think it's at least worth a shot. Smokestack should really be run in the deck. I dont see any arguement to not be playing it.. Since everything in the deck is a permanent you can put stax to 1 even without a crucible. It can go to 2 with it, which just ends the game very quickly. I'll try out these changes and get back to you, but like I said Im not giving up on the equipment, I'll switch back and forth.

I think the main thing to note here is that Deadguy isn't a bad match-up because of LD. You can normally drop the important things on turn 1 or 2 before their LD comes online. It's a bad matchup because of the fact that they rip your hand to shreds. First turn Hyppie on the play almost always wins the game for them. Hymn is horrible for this deck, as is Gerrard's Verdict. It is probably the worst matchup for the deck. Although in testing against SexyRector, if you have a fast hand, you can normally fight back easily. Either way, the games are very one sided in this matchup.

Come to think of it, games with this deck are almost always one sided. You either have a good hand that will roll over just about every deck in the format, or you will kinda crap out and control the board for a while then lose.

[Zilla]

Come to think of it, games with this deck are almost always one sided. You either have a good hand that will roll over just about every deck in the format, or you will kinda crap out and control the board for a while then lose.
...so it's like Mono-Brown Suicide.

[Machinus]

Dodecapod?

This deck is really cool. I've already done some work on trying to make it competitive. My compliments to the original designer.

[Bane of the Living]

Dodecapod is actually amazing in that match. You should see the look on your opponents face when they read him. "I just gave you a FREE 5/5?"

Equip with SoFI for the win! yay.

[Lego]

Can we see some of that work?

I think the Dodecapod is too limited to be useful, he's almost always going to be a 3/3 for 4, which isn't amazing here.

I think Tangle Wire absolutely needs a position in this deck. It will almost never be even close to symetrical. Helm of Awakening, on the other hand, always is, and will allow a lot of combo decks to just go off on you. I wouldn't cut the Chalices, but maybe one of the Crucibles or some of the equipment. I'm really not sure what to cut for Tangle Wire, but it's a great card. You can tap your Chalices, your Crucibles, and your equipment, and not suffer any ill effects.

I do wonder if Smokestack should be thrown in. Possibly as board against control, if that's a bad matchup. The Custody is great in the board as well, and maybe we can change the maindeck manabase to reflect that, and board out the equipment for the Custody.

Are Triskellion and Sundering Titan too expensive for this deck? I'm not sure what matchups they would even improve, but they're big. (I know you probably hate me for that comment, but it's better than the, "How about we splash green for Rancor (which gives the coveted Trample) and then we can play Thran Golem" nonsense)

[Machinus]

I think the Dodecapod is too limited to be useful, he's almost always going to be a 3/3 for 4, which isn't amazing here.

It's for the sideboard.

[Zilla]

I think the Dodecapod is too limited to be useful, he's almost always going to be a 3/3 for 4, which isn't amazing here.
These statements were directly related:


Deadguy isn't a bad match-up because of LD... It's a bad matchup because of the fact that they rip your hand to shreds.

Dodecapod?

[Lego]

That makes more sense, sorry. I like it in that matchup, a free 5/5 is fun.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Cutting the equipment from this deck is certainly incorrect. Vanilla artifact fatties don't win games in this format, even if they come down early. They get blocked and killed. The reason to run things like Warbeast and Su-Chi at all is that they are tough to kill in response to a SoFI equip activation. Juggernaut is the weakest creature in the deck because of its smaller ass.

Decks without STP can't really deal with SoFI-equipped creatures attacking on turn 3 or 4. You even have Chalice as a solid foil to STP. Equipment makes your opponent's game less relevant by finishing games extremely quickly and decisively.

Smokestack is terrible in this deck, anyway, because it is horrendously slow. Try playing Stax and you'll see what I mean. Hanna's Custody is decent protection from STP, but seems pretty narrow and doesn't have anywhere near the power of the equipment cards. It's mostly worthless against Goblins, which incidentally scoops to SoFI.

On a different note, I think fitting Factory or Nexus into the manabase might be worthwhile, as it would increase Crucible's usefulness significantly, while upping the threat density.


...so it's like Mono-Brown Suicide.
Actually, yes, this deck has a playstyle very similar to Suicide Black's. After our initial testing with it, I would tentatively say that it is much more consistent at beating Goblins, and probably about as good as Sui against Gro, but you get a similar feeling of urgency when playing the deck. It's quite a rush, I think.

[Bane of the Living]

@Obfuscate Freely
FYI I do play stax. Smokestack is never a slow card in a deck with this mana base. Dont say things like that when they arent true.

Smokestack is so slow people break it in Vintage, oh man!!

As far as Hanna's Custody. I wasnt initially adding it for protection from Swords altho it certainly grants it. I think its amazing because every other card in the deck is an artifact. So is there something not good about making all of your stuff bullet proof? Especially lock pieces. I've won games against decks cause I had Custody protecting my Chalice or Trinisphere.

Maybe you can take something out of the deck besides the equipment, I just know -as a stax player- that no card draw can really suck. Have fun pulling hands with land, lock pieces, and equipment. I'm sure a man will show up soon but lets hope you can hold off till then. I seem to do this alot goldfishing the deck with apprentice. Again, I removed the equipment for Custody because of anti syngergy.

Custody is great because Juggy's ass isnt a lightning rod anymore. And Su Chi isnt going to lose you 4 life when someone cans him. I'd need to at least advocate it as a sideboard card, it just seems to good to have every card untargetable on even turn 1 sometimes.

[Obfuscate Freely]

@Obfuscate Freely
FYI I do play stax. Smokestack is never a slow card in a deck with this mana base. Dont say things like that when they arent true.

Smokestack is so slow people break it in Vintage, oh man!!

As far as Hanna's Custody. I wasnt initially adding it for protection from Swords altho it certainly grants it. I think its amazing because every other card in the deck is an artifact. So is there something not good about making all of your stuff bullet proof? Especially lock pieces. I've won games against decks cause I had Custody protecting my Chalice or Trinisphere.

Maybe you can take something out of the deck besides the equipment, I just know -as a stax player- that no card draw can really suck. Have fun pulling hands with land, lock pieces, and equipment. I'm sure a man will show up soon but lets hope you can hold off till then. I seem to do this alot goldfishing the deck with apprentice. Again, I removed the equipment for Custody because of anti syngergy.

Custody is great because Juggy's ass isnt a lightning rod anymore. And Su Chi isnt going to lose you 4 life when someone cans him. I'd need to at least advocate it as a sideboard card, it just seems to good to have every card untargetable on even turn 1 sometimes.
Even with this manabase, Smokestack is a slow card. Stax runs it because it's more or less a synergistic win condition for a deck with a lot of lock permanents. This deck has a much lighter lock contingent, and thus relies on creatures instead. The payoff is a much more aggressive gameplan, and the ability to abuse equipment like no other deck in the format.

I understand what Custody does and that it has obvious synergy with a monobrown deck. What I was trying to get at, though, is that none of its effects are directly beneficial to this deck's strategy other than the protection from Swords to Plowshares. An aggro deck such as this one cannot afford to dedicate cards to protecting its lands or its disruptive elements. The fact that Custody shuts off equipment, which is extremely vital to the effectiveness of the deck, makes it even worse.

[Evil Roopey]

Ok, let's focus on the maindeck here. These are cards I feel are essential to the deck's strategy and are not cuttable unless you want to move the deck into another direction.

4 Juggernaut
4 Phyrexian Warbeast
4 Suchi/Synod Centurion/other 4cc Dude that beats on people**
3-4 more threats**

**Options:
Su-Chi
Synod Centurion
Cathodian
Eater of Days (This seems poor but if you don't think your opponent can/will do anything with a lot of lock pieces on the board, it might be worth it)
Steel Golem
Grid Monitor
Arcbound Crusher
LODESTONE MYR/TIME VAULT!!! :) In all seriousness that might work, or things that turn on/off when they are tapped and shit might work as well. Who knows?

I'm not sure how high the curve allows for because I haven't gone above 4, but if it does allow for more there is always Karn, Silver Golem. Even if it doesn't allow for him conveniently he might still be worth it.


Lock Pieces:
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

I think every single one of these cards is an auto stay as a 4 of.

Now the manabase is debatable and is kinda flakey but I think the one I was running seems pretty decent:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein**
4 Darksteel Citadel**
4 Rishadan Port**
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
0-2 More land**
2-3 Crucible of Worlds

**Debatable slots.

Now, I feel Crucible is essential to the mana base just so that it actually works.

That leaves a few slots, but not a lot at all. The maindeck is pretty full as it is, and is a pretty tight list. Now, from the original list you can do this:

-3 Ravager
-2 Jitte
+3 Tangle Wire
+2 Cathodian/Other 2-3CC Threat

This would give you less equipmentm since everyone seems to fear the Equipment/Creature ratio in this deck, and give you more lock pieces. Tangle Wire is an absolutely amazing addition to the deck, but is it worth the slots??

Cards that might be able to go into the Tangle Wire slot in that particular list.

Static Orb
Winter Orb
Armageddon
Dark Ritual
Uba Mask
Smokestack
Pithing Needle
Crawl Space
Other things I can't think of right now.

Of these options I think Tangle Wire and Armageddon are the most viable options.

On the Sideboard, there are literally thousands of things you can do with it. I don't think I used over half of my board when I was in the tounrey. So do whatever fits your meta I guess, I'll come up with a generalized SB soon.

You can also take the deck into the more controlling route, which by the looks of ya'lls lists is what you want to do. I don't agree with this strategy, and you are probably posting it in the wrong thread because you are basically running Stax. This deck is about tempo (obviously) and pure awesomeness, not sittingaroundfor50minutesdoingnothing.dec.

Roop

[Lukas Preuss]

This deck looks like a hell lot of fun and I will defintely test it.

I think Armageddon could be really promising, although I'm not sure if it's only a win-more card or something necessary. Pithing Needle should probably be in the Sideboard, since it can shut so many decks off.

Just one thought: Could Copy Artifact be any good in this deck? 4/4 or 5/3 for 1U seems to be quite nice to me. I don't think I would play four copies though, but it might be interesting as a two-off.

[Lukas Preuss]

Well, after having tested this deck throughout the day, there is some things I'd like to say.

1. Don't even try Copy Artifact. It was a bad idea, sorry. :)
2. During my testing, it felt as if this deck desperatly needs some draw. It happened quite often that I had to mulligan down to five and it is still not doing very well, because you are entirely dependant on the top of your deck (of which almost 50% are mana sources). The only draw you have is Sword of Fire and Ice. And by the time you cast it, you should almost be winning either way. Any thoughts on that? Or am I playing the deck wrong and MWS is just crapping out on me? :)

[Machinus]

I actually think the deck is better without SOFI.

I don't feel like the deck needs draw at all. From playing Stax, I can tell you that the best skill you can have with a deck like this is mulliganing. Get a threat and some disruption in your opening hand, and you should be fine.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I actually think the deck is better without SOFI.

I don't feel like the deck needs draw at all. From playing Stax, I can tell you that the best skill you can have with a deck like this is mulliganing. Get a threat and some disruption in your opening hand, and you should be fine.
Have you tested this deck, or are you basing that assertion on prior experience?

Not running Sword of Fire and Ice means that your opponent will have a greater opportunity to survive your opening hand. Juggernauts and Su-Chis are not that hard to answer; why not run Sword so you can just put games away?

Seriously, I'm trying to figure out why you don't want to run SoFI in this deck. It wins a lot of games that vanilla 4/4s don't.

[Machinus]

It was just too hard to keep in the 3-slot. I do run another equipment that has a similar function, but is much cheaper.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It was just too hard to keep in the 3-slot. I do run another equipment that has a similar function, but is much cheaper.
It seems to me that this deck's curve starts at 3, but I'd still be very interested in knowing what other equipment card you've had success with. It isn't as if Jitte hasn't been very good to us; SoFI has just been better.

[Lukas Preuss]

I think he might be talking about Mask of Memory. It worked fine in Angel Stompy, it's cheaper than SoFI, and it digs deeper (you draw two cards and discard one)...

[Bongo]

One thing I noticed while looking at the decklist:

What are your turn 1 plays besides Chalice?

Almost all threats are costed at 3+, and without Mox Diamond the chance of doing nothing on your first turn seems quite high.

[fearphage]

I have been trying to establish a decklist for monobrown stax for a few weeks now. I like the aggro stax feel of this deck. I think that is the best way to go with this deck. full stax deck with 8-14 creatures. I'm not sure if I agree with the equipment in the deck but I did always want card draw when playing stax.

Helm of awakening is terrible in this deck. An unadulturated sin to put it lightly. You want to lock your opponent down with things like trinisphere, chalice of the void, and sphere of resistance not help them out. Its too symmetrical too be good here.

@threats (bold represents my favorites):
Grid monitor - strong pick; Strong offense and hard to kill by blocking/burning. You don't want to overextend so one creature at a time is fine.
Juggernaut - sorta weak in the current aggro meta. easily killed by burn, mongeese, and 2 goblins or gempalm
Myr Enforcer - seems solid (4/4 for 4 on average... gets better as the game goes on); bad top deck after mass removal but otherwise worth atleast a 2-3 of slot; i don't think its worth running artifact lands for this purpose
Arcbound Ravager - this should not be in the same deck with smokestack. if you choose to run a build without smokestack then this could fly
Masticore - with no card draw this could be dangerous; with some card drawing mechanism this would be much better but should only occupy 2-3 slots i feel
Razormane Masticore - seems better for the deck than masticore. mana-lessly kills a creature per turn and first strike for blocking; excluding reanimator i can only think of 3 creatures that this won't kill in the meta (flipped angel, werebear, and enforcer). this also suffers from the possibility of locking yourself out of the game with no card advantage present in the deck
Silent Arbiter - answer to goblins? seems solid with any other creature out to block. shuts down piledriver atleast. not the normal fatty but worth some sideboard consideration if goblins are giving you woes
Darksteel Brute - 2/2 blocker that never dies; not too shabby against some decks with mass removal. maybe sideboard worthy.
Su-Chi - major liability; its good with ravager i guess but it is potentially 4 life points on top of damage from tombs.
Synod Centurion - strong 4/4 for 4. no drawback at all. if you don't control any artifacts, you have bigger problems than losing a creature.


@equipment:
Mask of Memory - advantages: cheaper to cast/equip, diggs deeper. this deck is not concerned with the cheapness of spells in general so that is a minor advantage. i actually find the ccasting to be a problem because i like to chalice for 2 (after chalicing for 1) to ward off disenchant, naturalize, counterspell, daze, serenity, powder keg. this is also affected by 3sphere which is a slight inconvenience
Sword of Fire and Ice - advantages: aggro control, faster clock, protection from bounce and burn. this actually helps in aggro matchus which seems to be this decks arch nemesis. i think if any equipment is used it should be SoFI and it should not exceed 3 slots. Its a bad top deck with no creatures and you want to make sure you have a creature before/when you draw it. seeing more than 1 per game is not necessary or always useful either. (this is exponentially good with silent arbiter)


Have you tried karmic justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=karmic%20justice) in the hanna's custody slot? It acts as a lock piece in itself. It stops shenanigans like deed, disk and akroma's vengeance which are untargetted mass removal and will wreck this deck. If the opponent is foolish enough to cast/activate something like this with justice in play, it will generally mean they wipe their entire board.

This is my take on the deck (this is very preliminary and untested):

// creatures (12)
3 Grid Monitor
3 Myr Enforcer (better late game, dont need in my opening grip)
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Synod Centurion

// lock compenents (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

// meh... (2)
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

// mana (30)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai (good synergy with smokestack)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
2 Rishadan Port

My deck is so land heavy because 12 sources of land (city of traitors, cyrstal vein, wasteland) are not permanent sources. With that said, 4 crucibles are a must. After testing 4 darksteel citadel may find there way into the deck as the only non-wasteable mana sources. more than likely the 2 swords will become lock components and i may decrease the number of crystal vein to 2-3 if it becomes a major problem

[Bane of the Living]

I think running Myr Enforcer with 0 artifact lands is obviously a mistake.
You will never play him for a good cost ratio, You'll be paying 5 mana for a vanilla 4/4 all day. I really dont think you thought that out.

It would be nice to see Grid Monitor work though. Same with Razormane.

[Evil Roopey]

I think running Myr Enforcer with 0 artifact lands is obviously a mistake.
You will never play him for a good cost ratio, You'll be paying 5 mana for a vanilla 4/4 all day. I really dont think you thought that out.

It would be nice to see Grid Monitor work though. Same with Razormane.

Wouldn't Karn be like 10 times better than Razormane? I seriously doubt that Razormane can be upheld in this deck.

[Amon Amarth]

Sword of Fire and Ice should always be a 4-of. You will always want one in most matchups. The biggest thing is that Sword will also protect your guys from Rack and Ruin and such. None of the other suggested equipments do that.

[SillyMetalGAT]

ummm........ this may sound silly, but has anyone considered O-Naginata for this deck? Trample is a really, really, REALLY disgusting ability for this deck, especially if you play SOFI too.....

[Evil Roopey]

ummm........ this may sound silly, but has anyone considered O-Naginata for this deck? Trample is a really, really, REALLY disgusting ability for this deck, especially if you play SOFI too.....

But is it worth paying 3 for when 3sphere is out?

[SillyMetalGAT]

I would assume so, paying 3 to make a juggernaut a 8/3 trample sounds legit to me

[Amon Amarth]

I would assume so, paying 3 to make a juggernaut a 8/3 trample sounds legit to me

Another thing to remember is that cheaper CC cards also get in the way of Chalice of the Void. 1, and 2 mana cards, IMHO, should not be included unless they are a friggin house. Like Goblin Welder, but that's a whole different can of worms.

[SillyMetalGAT]

well, maybe im confused......... is this deck supposed to control or supposed to beat? It can really go either way I guess, but it would be nice to confirm that now, since I've been playing this as full out aggro...... which would be why my decklist looks different than roops

[Evil Roopey]

well, maybe im confused......... is this deck supposed to control or supposed to beat? It can really go either way I guess, but it would be nice to confirm that now, since I've been playing this as full out aggro...... which would be why my decklist looks different than roops

It's supposed to do both. It is an aggro control deck. I think. Maybe aggro/lock? Iono. But in anycase. It is supposed to stop your opponent while smashing them in the face. It wants both lock pieces and creatures on the board. The ideal hand would play out like this:

First turn 3sphere.
Second turn Juggernaut.
Third turn Sword equip and ride ftw.

You then should kill your opponent on turn 5. Giving them only 2 turns where they can actually play spells, and only 1 a turn. Meaning they will probably lose.

Roop

[Bane of the Living]

Roop with all respect that hand is the nuts. And thats counting that your opponent doesnt go first and play an aether vial. or waste one of your lands so your stuck under your own 3sphere. Granted things like that happen but not frequent enough. The same goes to say "we cant add 1 mana cards because of chalice" Thats entirely untrue. Chalice will get countered and destroyed often, you also dont have any card draw so it's unlikely that your O-Nagi and your Chalice will interact much. Trample is nutsack in this deck. I think O-Nagi may be worth 2 slots. While lock pieces are nice you also want to go balls to the wall with your win conditions. So yea GAT poses an interesting question in, "How aggro/control do we build it."

Karn Vs Masticore

Both are 5 mana, both are nice fat men, both have nice abilities and subtle drawbacks. I know by experience that you can feed Masticore each turn, you can keep a Smokestack at one without a Crucible for the same reason, each card in your deck is a permanent. As long as Razormane is doing its job, feeding it a card each turn is a small price to pay for the investment. He helps your aggro match, which you've already considered the bad match. You dont have to pay for his removal, and he takes down almost every creature in the format and survives the fight sans his ability. Karn, while good at going alpha strike, sucks big balls in combat against aggro. You may not need a finisher though, especially if the SoFI's stay in.

[Sugar Woof]

I've only tested with the list slight but I'd go with Karn, being able to animate my guys as opposed to shooting a guy a turn w/ first strike, Karn jus seems better in this list to me


also on the o-nagi, it jus seems like it'd be way too bad synergy with spheres n chalice, I mean 2 copies could possibly come down before chalice or sphere hits but that holds u back, n if they don't come down before sphere/chalice u pay 3 for it or it's jus dead

[Amon Amarth]

"How aggro/control do we build it."

I don't think the deck is Aggro/Control. I think it is more of an Aggro/Prison variant.

Secondly, the "lock parts", and I use that term loosely, should give you rediculous tempo. Tangle Wire, does that, ditto for Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. Crucible of Worlds makes you manabase more consistent and recurring Wastelands make me wiggle, lots. Smokestack does not do that, costs more than the other lock parts, and is slow as mollasses.

Karn or Razormane Masticore...neither. I am really not a fan of either. They both suck in their own, special ways. I think the curve ends at 4 when it comes to creatures.

O-Naginata...sucks.It gets in the way of your Chalice, and 3Sphere. Inversely, Sword of Fire and Ice does not screw with your either of those, deals more damage, acts as removal, card pops, pumps backside, protection from relevant colors, and is way cooler.

The only other equipment I would consider running is Jitte.

[BLODORN]

What about Silent Arbiter? It seems the win condition in this is always an equiped juggs.

[Bane of the Living]

Arbiter isnt good against anything but aggro, without card draw you cant play cards that narrow. Maybe in the sideboard though. He's also only a 1/5 flier so not too scary compared to his brown brethren. I can see that he can be good with SoFI but you cant always count on it.

We were discussing Razormane and Karn as finishers, 2 of's. But like I said, I dont think you need one if your playing equipment.

[SillyMetalGAT]

@Amon: Have you even tested this deck with ANY of the cards you say suck? I think its fine to drop a turn 1 Nagi over 3sphere sometimes anyways.... and as far as saying that both Karn and Razormane suck is pretty ballsy too..... did nobody realize that karn with a SOFI kills all your opponents artifacts that cost 2 and under?? that kills quite a lot in the WOOSTA meta...... Jitte and Vial are very common... i cant think of anything else right away, but if i do ill be sure to add it.

[Sugar Woof]

In the format as of right now, I would never pass up the chance to cast turn 1 sphere with this deck, waiting a turn let's ur opponent possibly have a chance to dig for f.o.w. or some other disruption, o-nagi, it jus seems so bad, sword of f/i is prob the only equip needed, jitte could possibly go in, but o-nagi....no, it jus gets in way of chalice n sphere too much, as for karn/razormane, if one would go in it prob should be karn, not because u can animate ur opp's artifacts n shoot some of them w/ sword, but because it jus helps u in the win condition slot, but like it's already been said, with sword of f/i and the assortment of creatures that are already there karn/razormane is prob not needed

[Bane of the Living]

Just for the sake of agruement, Razormane is way better with SoFI than Karn. You kill the blocker during draw step then swing in for 9!! Not to mention SoFI draws you cards to feed him. Maybe the 2 in conjunction could actually be played?

As far as 1st turn 3sphere goes. Yea it's usually the right call but not always. If your land light, lets say you have a mox and tomb only, but you keep cause you had turn 1 sphere. If you miss your next land drop, an opponent would certainly wasteland your tomb. Even tho he needs to climb to 3 mana, now you do too. Lets not fail to mention how bad this is..

Opponent: Mountain, Vial, go
You: Ancient Tomb, Diamond, 3sphere

This deck's lock components actually are quite relivent to whether your playing or drawing. Especially with the aformentioned vial.

So anyways, I have tested 2 O-Nagi. Theyre amazing. I played 10 games and they interacted with CotV once, and 3sphere twice. Crappy yes, but not crappy enough. Trample makes this deck sick, I may not play the deck without the 2 O-Nagi's now. The reasonably bad goblin matchup got a ton better. Fanatics and Matrons didnt block my monsters, instead I tore through with 7-8 damage off Juggy's and Enforcers. Enforcer also gets much better with Nagi since it helps affinity much more than Jitte did.

My current list is Roopeys:
-4 Crystal Vein
+3 Ancient Den
+1 Scorched Ruins

-2 Jitte
+2 O-Nagi

-4 Su Chi
+3 Myr Enforcer
+1 Razormane Masticore

[cgooch]

If evasion/trample is the biggest problem with the deck, you could consider Rust Elemental. In my opinion, I think that O-Naginata is a great choice to add to this deck. I've MWSed it a few times, and the one thing it lacks is the finish. I can lock my opponent out of the first few turns, but without evasion, I can just be chump blocked out of the game.

[Lego]

If you're really worried about O-Naginata interacting with Chalice, but still want Trample, I suppose Loxodon Warhammer is always an option. It costs twice as much though.

[Evil Roopey]

If you're really worried about O-Naginata interacting with Chalice, but still want Trample, I suppose Loxodon Warhammer is always an option. It costs twice as much though.

Dude I would run run Warhammer over O-nigigay in an instant, if only for the fact that it would just be awesome. But in all seriousness, it would help you win the race with goblins as soon as it hit the board.

Roop

[Sugar Woof]

I'd play warhammer over O-nagi, if i played either one

Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland

Creatures
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast
4 [u] Juggernaut
4 [FD] Synod Centurion
1 [US] Karn, Silver Golem
2 [AQ] Su-Chi

Spells
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [NE] Tangle Wire

Sideboard
SB: 3 [CHK] Uba Mask
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid


this is the list i have been testing late lastnight and earlier today, not much difference from original list

Double posts merged. Also, please familiarize yourself with the site's rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2564) and follow them. - Zilla

[fearphage]

sword of fire and ice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=sword%20of%20fire%20and%20ice) > loxodon warhammer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=loxodon%20warhammer) > jitte (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=umezawa's_jitte) > o-naginata (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=O-Naginata)

-jitte scores so low because it becomes useless once named with pithing needle, which is run quite often in this format. Other equipment are still useful while attached when a needle comes out. It is also affected by 3sphere and chalice. Although it is very versatile I don't believe this is the deck for it.

i'm sorta on the fence between warhammer and SoFI.
- SoFI makes your dudes pro-red meaning infinite blocker or unblockable creature kill/direct damage every turn.
- protects from creatures artifact and bounce/ice
- 5 mana to play and equip instead of 6 of warhammer
- i think its more relevant to stop goblins from amassing an army than gain life... that is my opinion though

Powder keg is a good answer to vial, needle, turn 1 lackey (on the play), etc. Its worth sideboarding but not worth MD i dont feel. Although it can also take out morphed angels, mongeese, and werebear without affecting anything else. Maybe with testing it could be be MD although I hate that it costs 2.

running this deck without smokestack (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=smokestack) is a mistake. your whole deck is permanents. thats what you have over your enemy. smokestack is the semi-combo that can end games. turn 1 - 3sphere follow by turn 2 - smokestack and your opponent enters the scoop phase as he/she will never be able to play a spell. this is a very good hand im talking about but it happens. also there are the rare occasions of turn 1 smokestack off of 2 diamonds and land. its risky but its lethal. that is something very few decks want to see across the table.

[Lego]

I think it's a mistake to say you have to play Smokestack. I'd say it's taking the deck in the wrong direction. Cards like Tangle Wire that shut your opponent down for a few turns while you beat are nice, but Smokestack is trying to set up a lock, which you don't need. You can beat for the win before Smokestack will ever become relevant anyway.

[Bane of the Living]

I think it's a mistake to say you have to play Smokestack. I'd say it's taking the deck in the wrong direction. Cards like Tangle Wire that shut your opponent down for a few turns while you beat are nice, but Smokestack is trying to set up a lock, which you don't need. You can beat for the win before Smokestack will ever become relevant anyway.

Well he didnt say you have to, hes just saying it might be a mistake not to. especially depending on your meta, specifically an absence of combo. Smokestack is always strong in mono brown. While tanglewire is good in theory, I've been running it and sometimes it taps me down to much to attack or play another threat. Most times Id rather drop a smokestack and then proceed to drop man after man, smokestack will wither away their resources and any defense they put up against your men. For alot of decks smokestacks can prove to be a huge problem, making it the #1 card to deal with.

[Machinus]

Smokestack is a possibility for the sideboard, but at the moment I'm not running it at all. In a competitive legacy environment, it is both useless against aggro and aggro-control, and unnecessary against the remaining control decks.

[Bane of the Living]

Smokestack is a possibility for the sideboard, but at the moment I'm not running it at all. In a competitive legacy environment, it is both useless against aggro and aggro-control, and unnecessary against the remaining control decks.

Then why advocate it so much in Angel Stax? Why not just run some big brown fat? Does the inclusion of stax really make it a different deck?

[Machinus]

Then why advocate it so much in Angel Stax? Why not just run some big brown fat? Does the inclusion of stax really make it a different deck?

If you want to play Stax without smokestack, be my guest.

This isn't a Stax deck.

[Bane of the Living]

If you want to play Stax without smokestack, be my guest.

This isn't a Stax deck.

Well its already running Chalice, Mox Diamond, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds, and Trinisphere. Along with the mana base.

I need to argue..

The title Stax, was first given to a Vintage deck using Goblin Welders and many 'stacking' effects from perms. Smokestack itself was first deemed too slow. Then glorious Mirrodin came along and we got Trinisphere. More people added Smokestacks since it now had an actual lock effect.

With the above list of cards, its pretty apparent to me that we have a stax deck going here. Even without smokestack. 5/3 has always been the name of the aggro version of stax. Cutting out Smokestack for whatever reason, to go more aggro, still makes this a stax deck.

fearphage sees the same stax deck I do. Thats why he was asking where Smokestack was.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I would have to agree with Bane, when i played vintage, people played stax without smokestack, Smokestack only got rediculous with crucible.

[Machinus]

In Legacy:

Stax = smokestack. That's pretty simple.

This deck isn't a stax deck, and smokestack isn't very good in the deck.

Try it out for yourself, and see how it goes.

[Amon Amarth]

To expand on what Machinus is saying think of it this way. Every lock piece in THIS deck, 5/3, is all about gaining tempo and making good use of that tempo by smashing with huge guys. Wire, 3Sphere, and Chalice all do that. Smokestack, however, will not gain you infinite tempo, or even any card advantage at first. The lock pieces give us virtual Time Walks; Smokestack Time Walks you, just like if you were living in Russia.

[Zilla]

The title Stax, was first given to a Vintage deck using Goblin Welders and many 'stacking' effects from perms.
I always thought the moniker Stax was a permutation of $T4KS, which was a clever (if somewhat inaccurate) annogram for The Four Thousand Dollar Solution (The $4k Solution). In any case, Machinus is right - in Legacy, Stax refers quite specifically to a deck where Smokestack is the centerpiece of its lock elements, and it doesn't belong in this deck.

[Machinus]

I always thought the moniker Stax was a permutation of $T4KS, which was a clever (if somewhat inaccurate) anagram for The Four Thousand Dollar Solution.

Quite right. It is also convenient that Smokestack is often called just "stack," which is very close to the deck name, and was the central component of the deck.


The title Stax, was first given to a Vintage deck using Goblin Welders and many 'stacking' effects from perms. Smokestack itself was first deemed too slow. Then glorious Mirrodin came along and we got Trinisphere. More people added Smokestacks since it now had an actual lock effect.


$T4KS was around long before Crucible or Trinisphere, and it most definitely ran Smokestack as a four-of. The name originated from the anagram and Smokestack itself. You're thinking of "Stacker," which is a comletely different deck, and one that never ran Smokestacks.

[fearphage]

I call this deck aggro stax just for the record. Although smokestack does essentially timewalk your opponent for one turn, after you get to untap with it, its cataclysmic effects can be felt. Lots of things essentially time walk your opponent if by time walk you mean it doesn't affect the board. Everytime you tap out to play a creature you time walk your opponent (none of these creatures have haste). Crucible can be a time walk against some mono-colored decks. The point is the deck works together and all the lock pieces and quasi-lock pieces hum in symphony to rape your opponent... or atleast that is the goal. I don't mind time walking my opponent after a first turn chalice for 1 or 3sphere. It ain't really so bad. I find smokestack to be very useful to me. If you don't find it that way, then suit yourself.</rant>

The tempo of smokestack is gained from the fact that every card in this deck is a permanent. This is not the case for most decks. While you are sacrifcing one of your 4-5 lands (with or without crucible), a dead tangle wire, or a 2nd 3sphere, your opponent is faced with harder decisions since there deck is filled with many non-permanents like duress, brainstorm, stp, wrath, naturalize/disenchant, etc. So they have to decide between losing one of the few permanents they have. The only deck with as many permanents as stax is goblins. Smokestack is pregressively less useful after each turn in this matchup because casting smokestack at 0 life is not quite as effective.

I have been trying different and somewhat random things with this deck. Smokestack is the centerpiece of my lock components I would say. I have enjoyed the interaction of gods' eye, gate to the reikai (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=BetrayersofKamigawa&name=gods'_eye,_gate_to_the_reikai) with smokestack. Most times it makes needed blockers while I go offensive with the big guys. Even when blockers are not needed, it is a self-replacing permanent to make smokestack even less symetric. Myr enforcer does suck in this deck as its often overcosted.

Although these are not common events, I was delighted when they happened. Here are a few phun plays I made with this deck.

Opening grip: ancient tomb x2, chalice of the void x2, synod centurion, razormane masticore, sword of fire and ice

on the draw against ww, game goes in parantheses is (his life, mine)
his-t1: plains, pass (20,20)
my-t1: tomb, chalice for 1 (20,18)
his-t2: mox, plains, soltari monk (20 ,18)
my-t2: tomb, chalice for 2 (20,14)
his-t3: attack for 2 (20,12)
my-t3: synod centurion (20,8)
his-t3: attack for 2 (20,6)
my-t4: draw crystal vein off the top, play and equip SoFI, attack for 6 with my 3 turn clock and kill his only creature. (14,2)
his-t4: untap, upkeep, draw, scoop (14,2)

next game I mulligan to 5 and open with t1 chalice for 1 and t2 chalice for 2 off of a tomb and a city. 3rd turn smokestack and 4th turn sac Gods' Eye to stack to hold off his only creature the savannah lion. i keep stack at 1 and he is at 2 land and the lion. he stops attacking so i amass a few tokens until i draw a creature and sac tokens to keep my lands in play and then beat with razormane masticore. gg

I am aware these situations are not common. I am aware I can not count on turn 1 chalice all the time. Thank you for letting me know that. These are just here for entertainment factor only. I thoroughly enjoyed them.

EDIT: Do people call this five tres (read: tray) in the same way they say 3/2 or 3-2 as three deuce? just curious

[tivadar]

So the question on my mind right now is how does this deck play goblins? If you don't go first, and they get a vial or a lackey down, that's close to GG for you. You don't have any first turn removal/creatures to deal with their threats. Would the Disk be a good addition at least to the board of this deck? You could get it out second turn and clean up their gobbos and vials on third, while still playing your lock piece that turn.

[Artowis]

Smokestack is god damn terrible in a deck that wants to drop it's goons when it hits 4 mana and stack takes 3-4 turns to do anything substantial to the opponent.

[martyr]

I was playing a version of this the other day against some random junk. Here's the list:

4x Juggernaut
4x Synod Centurion
4x Phyrexian Warbeast
3x Razormane Masticore

4x Helm of Awakening
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Rath's Edge

I came to some conclusions:

If you're going to run white, fine. That's your call. I, however, really appreciated having so many threats and mana-base hating cards. Swords to Plowshares wasn't that big of an issue, because it would usually only hit one creature before a Chalice set at 1, if it got played at all.

Smokestack is unneccessary, and frankly a bad idea. Not only does it reduce your threat density, it makes it really hard to support Razormane, and makes you even more reliant on keeping creatures in play for Sword of Fire and Ice to work. Keeping in mind that if you get two activations off a Sword, you should have won, this seems silly.

Jitte is poo. Pithing Needle is such a good answer to cards in this format that you're going to be casting a lot of 2cc useless equipment. It also doesn't draw you cards, which is a big issue. These should probably be Loxodons instead of O-Nagis, because of the life gain; running two of them means O-Nagis end up costing 3 much of the time anyway. Also, it's tricky to equip O-Nagis to Factories, which happens occasionally.

Phyrexian Warbeast was pretty sub-par, but playable. I wouldn't reccomend anything in this slot other than this, as having a 3cc threat was good all day. The only card I could see playing instead of this is Chimeric Idol, and that has anti-synergy with...a lot of stuff. Warbeast is a necessary evil.

Centurion is better than Su-Chi. He died a good amount (probably once for every two times I played him), and taking 4 each of those times would have hurt a LOT.

Razormane Masticore is silly as all hell. I think someone listed like 3 commonly played creatures that he doesn't outright kill on upkeep, which is in itself pretty stellar, but the ability to deal damage to these creatures and attack with him (being first strike) with essentially no fear was retarded. Gro can't race him, Goblins has their key later-game creatures zapped by him, and no creature that's realistically seeing play can stand up to him in combat. The card/turn is a perfectly reasonable cost to his insane power.

The only cards I'm not sold on in the list (besides Jitte) are Rath's Edge and Helm of Awakening. Helm occasionally allowed for fast starts, but it hardly ever produced more than 2 mana during my next turn, and doesn't help with Equip and Animation costs for my permanents. I can't help thinking that there has to be a better option here.

Rath's Edge was occasionally useful, but in most of those instances a Blinkmoth Nexus would have been just as good, and in many of THOSE instances, would have suited up with a Jitte or Sword and been a serious threat.

Keeping it Mono-Brown isn't necessary (many people are advocating a white splash), but it does make the deck more consistent, easier to play, and gives it more raw power. I'm gonna stick with it until a hideous amount of mono-white decks make me start playing Gruul War-Plow or some jank (which is of note: If it was colorless, it would definitely replace Warhammer in my current list).

Sui-Scat

4x Synod Centurion
4x Phyrexian Warbeast
4x Juggernaut
3x Razormane Masticore

4x Helm of Awakening (still looking for a replacement)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Loxodon Warhammer
3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Blinkmoth Nexus

SB: 4x Pithing Needle
SB: 4x Defense Grid
SB: 3x Uba Mask
SB: 4x Sphere of Resistance/Winter Orb (probably sphere, because of the 6 man-lands.)

[Evil Roopey]

Razormane Masticore is silly as all hell. I think someone listed like 3 commonly played creatures that he doesn't outright kill on upkeep

I would just like to point out that the three creatures you are talking about here, happens to be every creature in Threshold. That's bad. I still think Karn is much better.

I haven't got around to testing Warhammer, but I think it will probably end up in my list over Tangle Wire. I also believe that Centurian is better than Su-Chi after finally getting around to testing it.

Here is my list:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [6E] Crystal Vein

// Creatures
4 [U] Juggernaut
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast (2)
2 [MR] Grid Monitor
4 [FD] Synod Centurion

// Spells
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [NE] Tangle Wire/Warhammer

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CHK] Uba Mask
SB: 4 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid

[Machinus]

@ most of the thread

I never thought a deck as simple as colorless aggro would be so difficult to understand in terms of theory and strategy.

Smokestack is indeed "god damn terrible," as are 5-casting cost guys, helm of awakening, and other cards that don't equal huge beats.

The point of this deck is to deal twenty. If it doesn't deal damage, get rid of blockers, or protect your threats, get it out of the deck.


[NE] Tangle Wire/Warhammer

How has the 3cc + 3 equip worked out? Doesn't six mana total make it too inefficient?

[Nightmare]

The point of this deck is to deal twenty. If it doesn't deal damage, get rid of blockers, or protect your threats, get it out of the deck.So, why not splash a bit of red for Shrapnel Blast?

[fearphage]

I would just like to point out that the three creatures you are talking about here, happens to be every creature in Threshold.
Out of the 3 creatures in threshold that 3 damage a turn won't kill, his 5/5 first strike body handles all except for the enforcer effortlessly. And if you deal the three damage to the enforcer in the upkeep, you can kill it also without losing your own creature.


Smokestack is god damn terrible in a deck that wants to drop it's goons when it hits 4 mana and stack takes 3-4 turns to do anything substantial to the opponent.
My first and foremost question is: Have you tested smokestack?

1 turn after smokestack is cast, your opponent must play atleast 1 permanent per turn or lose all their mana, creatures, etc. (read: board position). Turn 1 smokestack (happened on a few occaions) makes just about any deck sweep. that means your opponent will never have more than 2 land in play or 2 land and a 1cc creature. This is assuming you don't ramp it beyond 2. even on later turns 3-4 a smokestack is still a threat. Playing angel stax against thresh, fish, and other decks that can support it, meddling mage always chanted against smokestack first. It is the most feared card in the deck. With a lock piece like 3sphere/chalice/1sphere + smokestack can end the game. even without assistance, a permanent-light deck (threshold for instance) can find itself stuck on 0-1 lands indefinitely as its only permanents on the board. It is hard to destroy my board position or attempt to recover your own with no land/permanents. Even at its worse, smokestack draws a counter/disenchant out so that other elements of the deck can live. It is the Jesus of my deck for Christ's sake. It sacrifrices itself so that masticores, SoFI, and centurion can live... don't you see that?

I play the deck like prison aggro. I try to get you in a bad position wasteland lock, smokestack, 3sphere, and then i come attack you. although the creature is the thing that will end the game you still have to deal with the shackles that i attempt to establish before hand. smokestack is a must counter for almost every deck. Sometimes when i'm in lots of trouble, I use smokestack as a slow apocalyptic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=apocalypse) mechanism. I ramp smokestack as high as I can and let it wipe both sides of the board knowing that I can recover faster with 2-mana lands and crucible and other outs. Sometimes its the right thing to do.

I am not saying you have to play smokestack in your decks. I am saying that calling it a stupid inclusion and talking about how much it sucks sounds like hasty, untried banter. I'm also saying that I find it to be a most useful tool for this deck. I will continue testing it. This is not worth arguing about. Feel free to declare its horridness but I can't, in my right mind, remove it from this deck.

@ nevinyrral's disk - that's a no go. wiping your board is bad. even if it takes all the goblins with you. goblins are too broken to attack that way.

[tivadar]

I never thought a deck as simple as colorless aggro would be so difficult to understand in terms of theory and strategy.


I disagree. gobbo is aggro, gro is aggro control, and as someone pointed out before, this is more of an aggro lock/prison deck. I just don't think it's "as simple as colorless aggro". Perhaps it shouldn't be aggro lock and should move towards more straight aggro, in which case, you're right, stack should be dropped, and things like 3-sphere and tanglewire should be called into question.

My main issue with this deck is why it's running equipment (and still how it beats goblin when they play first or you don't have mana accel). It really seems like it's trying to do too much by adding equip. It's already got big honkey creatures out, and aims to lock the board. I might suggest replacing some of the equipment with maybe things like lotus petal, jewelled amulet, pithing needle, quick artifacts that you can sack to stack and can provide mana at the same time. Also, what about Solemn Simulacrum?

[Nightmare]

Alright, let me chime in.

Considering that Machinus is an Adept based on his work with Stax, Roopey is one of the best deckbuilders in Legacy, and not to toot my own horn, but I played Legacy Stax more/longer than almost anyone minus the aforementioned, I have to reiterate the following:

This deck is not Stax.

Read that again, 'cause I know you missed it.

Playing Smokestack in this deck fundamentally changes the way it's played. This is NOT a prison deck. This IS an aggro deck. That's why it runs equipment. Don't make the mistake of comparing this deck to Stax in Type1, this is Workshop Aggro's counterpart. Chalice and 3Sphere are not here to create locks. They are here as protection for your huge friggin guys to swing out. You don't want to stop your opponent from ever playing spells again. You want to stall them from playing spells for 4-5 turns, or in particular, casting spells that kill your men. This is a fundamental difference, and it makes Smokestack both A) weak, and B) too slow for this deck.

[Lukas Preuss]

Well, I've you really want your creatures to have trample, why not splash green for something like Primal Rage?

It doesn't give your creatures anything besides trample, but it's two mana instead of six and targets all your creatures...

[Zilla]

In my experience, you're rarely attacking with more than 1 or two massive threats. In that instance, Rancor is far more efficient than Primal Rage. But if you're going to run Rancor, you start asking yourself why you wouldn't just stay mono-brown and run Warhammer instead.

In the end though, I'd probably opt to run neither. I'd rather have Tangle Wire to lock down my opponent's threats while I beat them down... particularly because 6-7 equipment + 18 threats = terrible math, as I told Roop earlier. Tangle Wire is a better stall tactic against your control opponents as well.

As for creature removal, I think Razormane Masticore is a pretty goddamned solid inclusion for that, although it's a bit spendy.

[tivadar]

Playing Smokestack in this deck fundamentally changes the way it's played. This is NOT a prison deck. This IS an aggro deck. That's why it runs equipment. Don't make the mistake of comparing this deck to Stax in Type1, this is Workshop Aggro's counterpart. Chalice and 3Sphere are not here to create locks. They are here as protection for your huge friggin guys to swing out. You don't want to stop your opponent from ever playing spells again. You want to stall them from playing spells for 4-5 turns, or in particular, casting spells that kill your men. This is a fundamental difference, and it makes Smokestack both A) weak, and B) too slow for this deck.


Fair enough, then honestly, as a straightup aggro deck, I think this deck is terrible. Wastelands are gonna nail you, Crucible really makes little sense without Smokestack, and lots of decks out there will race you. There's too much spot removal in the format, especially against artifacts, and with your relatively small list of creatures, I'd be surprised if you actually got anything out that could attack. If this deck plays first, it COULD get out a 3-sphere first turn, which is about the best it can hope to do. Even with this, you're casting a creature second turn, then wait until third turn to swing with that creature. Next round, your opponent's going to have 3 mana and be able to remove your threat, doesn't sound too promising!

Even with equip, barring removal, lots of decks will find ways to chumpblock you, making your SOFI a moot point. I just don't see the merits of this deck over half the other aggro decks out there. Chalice for 1/2 is nice, as is 3-sphere, but all of this makes you far too susceptible to shatterstorm, smashing spree, disenchant, naturalize, and the like. There's just too much artifact hate in the field for this deck right now in my opinion. Also, don't 3-sphere and chalice sort of conflict in their functions?

[Evil Roopey]

Fair enough, then honestly, as a straightup aggro deck, I think this deck is terrible.

Terrible as in a 70/30 matchup against Goblins and a 65/35 matchup against Threshold?


Wastelands are gonna nail you, Crucible really makes little sense without Smokestack,

Crucible is in the deck to help against Wasteland as well as make Crystal Vein and City optimal cards to run.


There's too much spot removal in the format, especially against artifacts, and with your relatively small list of creatures, I'd be surprised if you actually got anything out that could attack.....If this deck plays first, it COULD get out a 3-sphere first turn, which is about the best it can hope to do. Even with this, you're casting a creature second turn, then wait until third turn to swing with that creature. Next round, your opponent's going to have 3 mana and be able to remove your threat, doesn't sound too promising!


I think you are missing the point here. The reason Chalice and 3Sphere are in the deck is to stop your opponent from removing your creatures. They are basically your counterspells. Tangle Wire, if you are running it, also helps here.


lots of decks will find ways to chumpblock you, making your SOFI a moot point.

Most decks that can consistantly chump block a Juggy every turn is red.


Chalice for 1/2 is nice, as is 3-sphere, but all of this makes you far too susceptible to shatterstorm, smashing spree, disenchant, naturalize, and the like. There's just too much artifact hate in the field for this deck right now in my opinion.

Isn't that what Chalice and 3sphere are for?


Also, don't 3-sphere and chalice sort of conflict in their functions?

Please explain how this is true at all?

[tivadar]

Terrible as in a 70/30 matchup against Goblins and a 65/35 matchup against Threshold?

Ok, let me ask this, how do you win against gobbo/gro when you don't play first? A first turn lackey or vial with gobbo, or a first turn island for daze or FOW in gro is going to hurt you a lot. Lackey renders most of your denial dead cards, and disruption really hurts your gameplan.



Crucible is in the deck to help against Wasteland as well as make Crystal Vein and City optimal cards to run.

Ok, you're right here, didn't think that one through as much...


I think you are missing the point here. The reason Chalice and 3Sphere are in the deck is to stop your opponent from removing your creatures. They are basically your counterspells. Tangle Wire, if you are running it, also helps here.

I'm guessing against gro you chalice for 2? Still, that's a second turn play, and I don't see how you manage to get that through without a counter. That keeps back their meddlings and werebear (assuming UGW), but how do you deal with their big flier, whether fledgling or mystic? I just can't see this deck winning before that hits the board...


Most decks that can consistantly chump block a Juggy every turn is red.

Maybe it's just where I'm coming from, but I run Angel stompy, while we can't block juggy forever, 2 silver knights really hurt. If it's equipped, that's a bit bigger of a problem, perhaps you have a point about this.


Isn't that what Chalice and 3sphere are for?

3sphere won't be a big help here, having to take an extra turn for disenchant won't phase a lot of decks, and using 3 + x to destroy x artifacts instead of 1 + x isn't huge either. Chalice will work for that however, I'm actually curious about shattering spree, I'm guessing chalice will not work on the copies there, will have to look a bit closer later.


Please explain how this is true at all?

3sphere changes the converted mana costs of cards to 3, which means if you had chaliced for 2 earlier, it has no effect on disenchant or something once 3sphere is out. Please lemme know if I'm wrong here, but though that was the way it worked, ala goblin king aether vial.

Perhaps I was a bit hasty, but still, I'm just not fully convinced about this deck quite yet. It plays in your face aggro but I'm just not sure it's enough given the aggro already in the format.

[Zilla]

I'm guessing against gro you chalice for 2?
How is Chalice for 1 not the right play? It hits Bolt, StP, Mongoose, Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Mental Note, and Pithing Needle. I'm not sure how you could possibly consider Chalice for 2 a better call than Chalice for 1 against Gro. Ideally you'd do both, but Chalice for 1 first is the way to go. And with Mox Diamond, you can often cast Chalice for 1 on turn 1, even with an extra mana for Daze.


3sphere changes the converted mana costs of cards to 3, which means if you had chaliced for 2 earlier, it has no effect on disenchant or something once 3sphere is out.
This is false. Converted mana cost is always the number printed in the upper right hand corner of the card.

[Evil Roopey]

Ok, let me ask this, how do you win against gobbo/gro when you don't play first? A first turn lackey or vial with gobbo, or a first turn island for daze or FOW in gro is going to hurt you a lot. Lackey renders most of your denial dead cards, and disruption really hurts your gameplan.

First of all, you won't lose every game that you do not go first. They will not always have the Lackey or Vial/Daze or Force. Second, if a 3Sphere or Chalice set at 1 ever resolves against Gro you basically just win. Lackey can easily be answered with a Phyrexian Warbeast. If you find the matchup to be horrible, you can always play as a 2 of over Grid Monitor, which is probably the right call anyways. Tangle Wire is amazing against Goblins, and again you will probably want to side Silent Arbiter if you plan on facing a lot of aggro. Arbiter+SoF+I is gg against Goblins.

Have you tested any of your statements, or are they just assumptions?

[Machinus]

So, why not splash a bit of red for Shrapnel Blast?

My splash color is for a strong sideboard. Blast isn't good enough for the maindeck anyway, as there are cards that work much better with trinisphere, tangle wire, and creatures.

[tivadar]

@Godzilla: Thanks for the correction about converted mana costs. This stems from the fact that I asked someone about that about a year ago and apparently got the wrong answer from them. Don't have many tourneys around here and didn't see goblin when I went to GP, so really never had it corrected up until now.

@Roopey: Well of course I haven't tested, I'm just offering my opinion from looking at the list. I'll fully admit that I may be off my rocker anyways, and you've made some pretty decent arguments in favor of the deck. One thing I will say is that I still think that while this may not be a combo/lock deck, from what we're describing here, it has the feel/play of one. It really does rely on one or two cards to be in play and ride for the win. Without 3sphere/crucible, the deck just wouldn't be the same. That being said, after giving it some more though, I think you could be right.

The problem is the meta right now is just so f'ed up because of goblins. Practically every deck out there has to be designed to beat it. That means the only viable control strategy (seemingly) is aggro control. The argument that this deck shines in the current meta could very well be true. It's weakness, my guess would be, is probably a control deck should you encounter it. Have you tried against WUBS or Angel Control?

[Parcher]

It's already got big honkey creatures out, and aims to lock the board.

Being a honkey, I find the racism in this statement offensive.


Having said this, I also wonder how this deck might fare against true control. I have seen no discussion about Landstill, or Wombat. Though less prevelant in the meta, they would seem to have the advantages of both creature, and artifact hate maindeck. Have either of these been tested against?

[tivadar]

How is Chalice for 1 not the right play? It hits Bolt, StP, Mongoose, Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Mental Note, and Pithing Needle. I'm not sure how you could possibly consider Chalice for 2 a better call than Chalice for 1 against Gro. Ideally you'd do both, but Chalice for 1 first is the way to go. And with Mox Diamond, you can often cast Chalice for 1 on turn 1, even with an extra mana for Daze.

Against UGW gro, the sample deck I've been using:

2cc:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
2 Disenchant
4 Predict
1cc:
4 Brainstorm
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Serum Visions

I mentioned UGW gro, so I'm not sure why you're talking about bolt. Lists may run a bit different, but against this build, 2cc is probably the way to go, as it gets rid of 2/3rds of their creatures and their disenchant. It's pretty close to a hard lock on them.

[Evil Roopey]

Against UGW gro, the sample deck I've been using:

2cc:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
1cc:
4 Brainstorm
3 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Nimble Mongoose


I mentioned UGW gro, so I'm not sure why you're talking about bolt. Lists may run a bit different, but against this build, 2cc is probably the way to go, as it gets rid of 2/3rds of their creatures and their disenchant. It's pretty close to a hard lock on them.

I fixed the list for ya! ;)

[fearphage]

This deck resolved a problem i had with angel stax. 4 exalted angels were not enough win conditions to end the game in a timely manner. Angel stax could turn into draw.dec quite frequently.

After testing, I have to agree with a previous post of tividar. As a merely a monobrown aggro deck, i don't think this is viable. This deck's archnemesis is efficient aggro (gayblins, zoo, 8-10 land stompy, rg beats). This deck has 0 removal (i am not counting masticore because he's too expensive to run more than 2 of and I never want to see 2 of them in a game). Once something hits the table, its there forever. You could atleast run 3-4 powder keg (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=powder%20keg) in the smokestack slot. It would give you an out against humility, solitary confinement, moat, pithing needle, mongeese, werebear, engineered explosives, vial, lackey, warchief, and survival's genesis-frog lock to name a few. Although slow, it is worth consideration. Another option is culling scales (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Culling%20Scales) although it conflicts with mox diamond it has a semi-smokestack effect that could aid in tough matchups.

The most powerful splash color is white in my oppinion mostly for wrath and ghostly prison. Since these creatures are bigger than most you should only have 1-2 on the field at any time and have more waiting in your hand. This would allow you to wrath and quickly return to the beating. Good luck with the deck.

[Evil Roopey]

This deck resolved a problem i had with angel stax. 4 exalted angels were not enough win conditions to end the game in a timely manner. Angel stax could turn into draw.dec quite frequently.

After testing, I have to agree with a previous post of tividar. As a merely a monobrown aggro deck, i don't think this is viable. This deck's archnemesis is efficient aggro (gayblins, zoo, 8-10 land stompy, rg beats). This deck has 0 removal (i am not counting masticore because he's too expensive to run more than 2 of and I never want to see 2 of them in a game). Once something hits the table, its there forever. You could atleast run 3-4 powder keg (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=powder%20keg) in the smokestack slot. It would give you an out against humility, solitary confinement, moat, pithing needle, mongeese, werebear, engineered explosives, vial, lackey, warchief, and survival's genesis-frog lock to name a few. Although slow, it is worth consideration. Another option is culling scales (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Culling%20Scales) although it conflicts with mox diamond it has a semi-smokestack effect that could aid in tough matchups.

The most powerful splash color is white in my oppinion mostly for wrath and ghostly prison. Since these creatures are bigger than most you should only have 1-2 on the field at any time and have more waiting in your hand. This would allow you to wrath and quickly return to the beating. Good luck with the deck.

I just wanted point out that Keg can't hit enchantments. It still might be a good choice, maybe, but I haven't had any problems with these decks at all. You realize that most of the aggro decks scoop to first turn 3sphere or Chalice for 1, and they can not handle any creature in this deck, let alone when its equiped. I'm just saying, it seems odd that you are having problems with Aggro, when this deck should run over it.

[tivadar]

I fixed the list for ya! ;)

Hmm, that's an intersting update. I knew they had been debating mental note, but wasn't aware they had gotten rid of all of their card advantage for it. Are they really running 16ish creatures mainboard now? I thought it was always werebear or goose, not both... Anyways, for that list, you're correct, 1 is the right number.

[Lukas Preuss]

If you are worried about the Aggro matchup, you could always play Pyroclasm in the maindeck. All your opponent's creatures would die, yours would survive, since they all have 3+ toughness. Swing for the win.

[martyr]

This deck has 0 removal (i am not counting masticore because he's too expensive to run more than 2 of and I never want to see 2 of them in a game). Once something hits the table, its there forever. You could atleast run 3-4 powder keg (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=powder%20keg) in the smokestack slot. It would give you an out against humility, solitary confinement, moat, pithing needle, mongeese, werebear, engineered explosives, vial, lackey, warchief, and survival's genesis-frog lock to name a few. Although slow, it is worth consideration.

BING! Out go the Helm of Awakening, in go Powder Kegs. Many thanks to you fearphage. I can't believe I didn't think of these.

WRT Razormane: No, he doesn't count as removal. However, you want to play 3, in my opinion, for a number of reasons, most of which are your opponent's dwindling life total and creature count. He is the top of the curve in this deck, and he is the single best creature in it. Running three gives you a great chance at playing him by 5th turn, and a decent one at playing him 3-4th. Running two makes it more of an I-win-more card, because you'll likely be drawing into it with SoFI, and if you're drawing cards with SoFI, you should be winning anyway.


The most powerful splash color is white in my oppinion mostly for wrath and ghostly prison. Since these creatures are bigger than most you should only have 1-2 on the field at any time and have more waiting in your hand. This would allow you to wrath and quickly return to the beating. Good luck with the deck.

Boo for Wrath of God. Boo for Ghostly Prison. Yay for SB Hanna's Custody and SB Swords to Plowshares. White is in the board so Shattering Spree and normal (ie, not broken to hell against you) removal is poor. White wins teh prize.

[martyr]

There's just too much artifact hate in the field for this deck right now in my opinion.

Yes, but who plays it?

PS: Sorry bout the dub post.

[Zilla]

Anyways, for that list, you're correct, 1 is the right number.
One is the right number regardless. Just about every modern build of Thresh is running at least 12 1cc cantrips. These cantrips are what facilitate their ability to run such a low land count. Take away their cantrips first turn, and they'll be lucky to make their second land drop by turn 2. Follow that up with a Wasteland and you'd actually have to try to lose.

[Alfred]

I've been using Quicksand over Darksteel Citadel in this deck, and the results have been promising. It can stop a turn 1 Lackey going second, which is a huge boon, and it hoses random aggro. This deck has been performing alright, but hasn't been TOO spectacularly, unfortunately. :/

[Bane of the Living]

@tivadar
Shattering Sprees' copies are not countered my Chalice, I think you asked that earlier. We had a little discussion about it in Angel Stax. The best solution seems to be Hanna's Custody.

I told you Razormane was the shit. I'm playing three now.

[tivadar]

@tivadar
Shattering Sprees' copies are not countered my Chalice, I think you asked that earlier. We had a little discussion about it in Angel Stax. The best solution seems to be Hanna's Custody.

Nod, that's what I figured, since they're put on the stack and not played, and the copies come into existence when the spell is played, not resolved...

You're probably right about custody being your best bet. If they have good artifact hate, it doesn't tend to overlap with enchantment hate all that well. Against this deck, disenchant/naturalize is mediocre at best. Funny, you actually made me remember devout witness for my Angel Stompy :-P.

[Evil Roopey]

Nod, that's what I figured, since they're put on the stack and not played, and the copies come into existence when the spell is played, not resolved...

You're probably right about custody being your best bet. If they have good artifact hate, it doesn't tend to overlap with enchantment hate all that well. Against this deck, disenchant/naturalize is mediocre at best. Funny, you actually made me remember devout witness for my Angel Stompy :-P.

Actually, I would probably go with Karmic Justice, just to follow at least one theme of the deck. Being able to lock down your opponent more, while stopping them from doing shit is awesome.

[fearphage]

I personally prefer karmic justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=karmic%20justice) but without smokestack i think its a bad call. If smokestack is a 4-of, then karmic justice helps the stack. If not you'd be better off with hanna's custody. Since this deck has no way to stop a disk from dropping and popping or an opponent from getting to akroma's vengeance mana (barring wasteland), if either of those are in your meta often, karmic justice may still be the best call.

[Bane of the Living]

I would much rather play custody than justice. Custody makes your Chalice for 1 stay on the board and win you the game. Ditto 3sphere or whatevers shittin in their cereal. I would definitly disk someone which justice out. Gotta do what you gotta do. And if I have card draw I can climb out of the hole alot faster than this topdeckin beast.

[fearphage]

well in a few games against mwc and landstill the player thought it was a good idea to cast akroma's geneance/disk. Upon resolution they generally have no board left. Mwc especially does not want to start over. Even if I am in top deck mode I have about 3-5 more mana available to cast whatever I draw. My opponent had essentially mana screwed themselves. Sometimes wiping the board is your only choice between maybe losing and losing. I have done it a few times with smokestack.

Most bestest karmic justice play ever: One time I was playing some randoms and he thought that a top decked serenity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=serenity) was his salvation (that was such a glorious day). I felt like I was playing some bad combo as next turn I cast karmic justice. Upon reading the card, he started to shuffle up for next game. That was the best justice ever. I get a little teary eyed just thinking about it.

[Evil Roopey]

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
6 [A] Plains

// Creatures
2 [U] Juggernaut
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast (2)
4 [FD] Synod Centurion
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [PT] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [TE] Hanna's Custody

This is my white splash. Angel is amazing, I'm surprised no one has suggested it yet. It wins the race when you aren't on the play. This deck basically plays like a better version of Angel Stompy now.

Roop

[Eldariel]

BING! Out go the Helm of Awakening, in go Powder Kegs. Many thanks to you fearphage. I can't believe I didn't think of these.

You do realize that it doesn't affect enchantments, right?

[fearphage]

You do realize that it doesn't affect enchantments, right?
Ouch, that burns. I stand corrected. This deck still has no answer to humility, moat, or solitary confinement.

[Lego]

Except to win before they hit play, or stop them from being played. Incidentally, isn't SoFI an answer to Humility? I'm not good with all that stuff.

[lillelassie]

With the inclusion of angel, the deck is beginning to look like angel-stax.. You might as well play that instead, since its just better :)

[Lego]

With the inclusion of angel, the deck is beginning to look like angel-stax.. You might as well play that instead, since its just better :)

Roop would disagree:


This deck basically plays like a better version of Angel Stompy now.

At the very least you're not going to draw as much with 5/3. Meh, this is just funner to play.

[martyr]

Ouch, that burns. I stand corrected. This deck still has no answer to humility, moat, or solitary confinement.


Isn't that what the white splash was for? So, we're up shit creek without a paddle against Wombat and Confinement...how much of the metagame is that?

As someone mentioned, a really good answer to Humility is SoFI, and Blinkmoth Nexus is a fantastic answer to Moat. They better have a TD Swords to answer that.

[lillelassie]

Lego_Army_Man: There is a difference between angel-stompy and angel-stax

The best card to remove annoying enchantments with in this deck is smokestack.. Again we are moving towards angel-stax.. other options are the typical enchantment-removal in seal and disenchant, but smokestack would just be better imho, but of course if this is supposed to be aggro smokestack would seem bad, so use disenchant. But If you use disenchant over smokestack something is wrong. ERGO you should rather play angel-stax :) maybe just with an additional creature next to angel.

[Evil Roopey]

Lego_Army_Man: There is a difference between angel-stompy and angel-stax

The best card to remove annoying enchantments with in this deck is smokestack.. Again we are moving towards angel-stax.. other options are the typical enchantment-removal in seal and disenchant, but smokestack would just be better imho, but of course if this is supposed to be aggro smokestack would seem bad, so use disenchant. But If you use disenchant over smokestack something is wrong. ERGO you should rather play angel-stax :) maybe just with an additional creature next to angel.

Ok, first of all you are wrong. This deck is better than Angel Stax because it can actually kill within 50 minutes. Second, Angel Stax isn't good because it loses to Goblins, this deck doesn't. If that isn't good enough reason then I don't know what is. So, before you go making assertions why don't we test some times, it could prove your words wrong, and in your case it most likely will.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Ok, first of all you are wrong. This deck is better than Angel Stax because it can actually kill within 50 minutes. Second, Angel Stax isn't good because it loses to Goblins, this deck doesn't. If that isn't good enough reason then I don't know what is. So, before you go making assertions why don't we test some times, it could prove your words wrong, and in your case it most likely will.

uhhhh........ i dunno where you got that assumption roopey, last time I checked, when an entire decks point is to drop a turn 1 chalice for 1, it beats goblins. From there, you have Supression Field, Wrath, Smokestack, Wasteland, Port, Ghostly Prison....... do I need to continue?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Angel sounds pretty strong for this deck, but I doubt 10 white sources is enough to consistently cast it. I'm looking at the remaining 2 Citadels as good candidates for more Plains. You could also replace a few Plains with fetchlands; at least that way you might get WW with a Crucible.

The thing that really bugs me about the new list is the lack of Jittes. I know the deck is threat-light, but I seriously dislike the prospect of facing Goblins with only 4 equipment cards. If you really want more threats, I think fitting Mishra's Factory into the manabase would be preferable to cutting Jittes. I've been happily running Factories in place of Citadels, but Ports may have to go for them in the white build.

uhhhh........ i dunno where you got that assumption roopey, last time I checked, when an entire decks point is to drop a turn 1 chalice for 1, it beats goblins. From there, you have Supression Field, Wrath, Smokestack, Wasteland, Port, Ghostly Prison....... do I need to continue?
It isn't an assumption. Testing has shown Angel Stax to be weak against Goblins. Given that your counterargument is based entirely on theory (and flawed; most of those cards are flat-out terrible against Goblins), I believe I am justified in suspecting you of making an assumption.

[SillyMetalGAT]

It isn't an assumption. Testing has shown Angel Stax to be weak against Goblins. Given that your counterargument is based entirely on theory (and flawed; most of those cards are flat-out terrible against Goblins), I believe I am justified in suspecting you of making an assumption.

Actually Mr. Happy Hat, my good friend Bane_Of_The_Living made angel stax. He rode the deck to an amazing undefeated! HE PLAYED 2 GOBLIN DECKS. Read up noob

EDIT: Whos testing did you use? Lol they probably used E. Tutor too right? To quote Bane exactly,
"I pray in the direction of my chalice". Since he is the only player I know who plays Stax, I think i'll take his word for it. Just so you know, we tested both mono-red AND red-green goblins against it. I never won a game. As a final note, think of the Stax Vs. Goblins match as putting a rat in a pressure cooker and watching it slowly die. Thats what Stax does to little red men

[Zilla]

Angel sounds pretty strong for this deck, but I doubt 10 white sources is enough to consistently cast it. I'm looking at the remaining 2 Citadels as good candidates for more Plains. You could also replace a few Plains with fetchlands; at least that way you might get WW with a Crucible.

The thing that really bugs me about the new list is the lack of Jittes. I know the deck is threat-light, but I seriously dislike the prospect of facing Goblins with only 4 equipment cards. If you really want more threats, I think fitting Mishra's Factory into the manabase would be preferable to cutting Jittes. I've been happily running Factories in place of Citadels, but Ports may have to go for them in the white build.

It isn't an assumption. Testing has shown Angel Stax to be weak against Goblins. Given that your counterargument is based entirely on theory (and flawed; most of those cards are flat-out terrible against Goblins), I believe I am justified in suspecting you of making an assumption.
LOL. I was talking to Roop earlier on AIM, and you know what I told him? I told him it seemed like he didn't have enough Plains to support Angel and that he should drop 2 Citadels for 2 more plains. I also told him he should drop 2 Swords for 2 Jittes, because it balances your utility and rounds out your curve. Great minds think alike, apparently. :wink:

[Bane of the Living]

I mull to six against gobs for a turn 2 ghostly prison.
Turn one Chalice is just a bonus.

I think this deck might hold so much power in the future meta that when people start to think of a deck they need to know if they're deck can beat artifact.dec

The only question is really which one do you want to play?

Aggro?
Control?

I think white is obviously the line you cross between the two. Then there is Affinity which is just uber aggro. Then also Belcher and Flame Stax which takes the combo route. Artifacts are bonified broken cards. Its not really of relivance to debate which route is better. Probably whatever the meta needs.

Its just noteable how many of the aggro/control/combo cards in your build.
Its quite easy to blend and thats that makes the artifacts godly.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Actually Mr. Happy Hat, my good friend Bane_Of_The_Living made angel stax. He rode the deck to an amazing undefeated! HE PLAYED 2 GOBLIN DECKS. Read up noob

EDIT: Whos testing did you use? Lol they probably used E. Tutor too right? To quote Bane exactly,
"I pray in the direction of my chalice". Since he is the only player I know who plays Stax, I think i'll take his word for it. Just so you know, we tested both mono-red AND red-green goblins against it. I never won a game. As a final note, think of the Stax Vs. Goblins match as putting a rat in a pressure cooker and watching it slowly die. Thats what Stax does to little red men
I've tested the matchup myself. If Goblins can resolve a Lackey or Vial, every card in Stax other than Ghostly Prison and maybe Wrath becomes almost irrelevant. Even Prison can only buy time; Stax can't always manage to win before Goblins plays through the lock pieces.

Basically, Stax's best shot at beating Goblins is to go first and play a 1st-turn Chalice or 3sphere. Bringing this back on topic, 5/3 has the ability to shut down Goblins in the same way, along with the ability to dominate the board with fat and equipment. Vial is hardly a concern to 5/3, and Lackey can even be blocked. 5/3 is much better against Goblins than Angel Stax is.

LOL. I was talking to Roop earlier on AIM, and you know what I told him? I told him it seemed like he didn't have enough Plains to support Angel and that he should drop 2 Citadels for 2 more plains. I also told him he should drop 2 Swords for 2 Jittes, because it balances your utility and rounds out your curve. Great minds think alike, apparently. :wink:
Unfortunately, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I don't think going below 4 Swords is correct. The original list started with 4 Swords and 2 Jittes, and I prefer that setup. Generally, I'd rather draw extra weapons than not draw one at all, and having 6 equipment spells leaves me wanting often enough, as it is.

[Zilla]

Unfortunately, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I don't think going below 4 Swords is correct. The original list started with 4 Swords and 2 Jittes, and I prefer that setup. Generally, I'd rather draw extra weapons than not draw one at all, and having 6 equipment spells leaves me wanting often enough, as it is.
I understood. I just meant that we agree the deck needs Jitte. And with Roops current config, I think 6 equip is too many to be consistently supported by 14 creatures. Angel Stompy runs 6 equipment with 20 creatures and still has occasional problems with that ratio. I just don't think it'll work with more than 4 equip, unless you want to add at least 2 more creatures back in there.

[Lego]

And with Roops current config, I think 6 equip is too many to be consistently supported by 14 creatures. Angel Stompy runs 6 equipment with 20 creatures and still has occasional problems with that ratio. I just don't think it'll work with more than 4 equip, unless you want to add at least 2 more creatures back in there.

I'm not saying you're not correct, but I think the issue is slightly different than with Angel Stompy. Here, the creatures are bigger and therefore more likely to hang around for a while, and you're more likely to have enough mana to equip more than one equipment to a single creature. Even with all that, I'd also like to see a 16/6 ratio.

[Lukas Preuss]

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
6 [A] Plains

// Creatures
2 [U] Juggernaut
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast (2)
4 [FD] Synod Centurion
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [PT] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [TE] Hanna's Custody

This is my white splash. Angel is amazing, I'm surprised no one has suggested it yet. It wins the race when you aren't on the play. This deck basically plays like a better version of Angel Stompy now.

Roop


Do you seriously need 4 Winter Orbs? You are already running 3 Armageddons in the maindeck, shouldn't that be enough? I would actually put some Disenchants into the Sideboard, since this deck needs a way to deal with Humilty, Moat, etc...

[MasterBlaster]

I would actually put some Disenchants into the Sideboard, since this deck needs a way to deal with Humilty, Moat, etc...

This deck already has answers to those cards.
SoFI gets around Humility.
Angel gets around Moat.

[Evil Roopey]

Testing proves Tangle Wire>Geddon.

Second, has anyone had any recent success with this deck? I haven't had the chance to play it in any tournaments other than the D4Ds. I was wondering if this was a 2-week fad, or if people are still working on it?

[Skullclamping]

I'm still working on finding someone who borrows me some of the deck's cards...

[Whit3 Ghost]

Testing proves Tangle Wire>Geddon.

Second, has anyone had any recent success with this deck? I haven't had the chance to play it in any tournaments other than the D4Ds. I was wondering if this was a 2-week fad, or if people are still working on it?

Rsaunder and I were brainstorming a Shop agro port for a while actually. I may play this next time I'm up at 3guys.

[Vorus]

I took this deck to a tourney today.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
8 [A] Plains (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
2 [DS] Juggernaut
4 [FD] Synod Centurion
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast (1)

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [NE] Tangle Wire
2 [A] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Smokestack
SB: 1 [NE] Tangle Wire
SB: 3 [RAV] Faith's Fetters
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [TE] Hanna's Custody
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God

I pulled a 4-1-1 in the swiss and lost round 1 of the top 8.

Mishra's Factory with a SoFI out managed to win me several games so I would keep it in over the Port.

I would change the main deck:
+1 Juggernaut
+1 Tangle Wire
-2 Armageddon

The sideboard should be changed to:
4 Smokestack
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Wrath of God
3 Hanna's Custody


The geddon's created massive shifts in the game but in most cases I would have rather had a creature or a Tangle Wire.

[Rambo]

@Vorus
I agree with you on the fact that mishra's factory is better than port. Port just isn't worth the two mana when you are trying to lay down creatures as fast as you can. It can also beat and be played from the yard with crucible to be an eternal blocker. It can also hoist equipment to.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Why all the decks have Mishra's Factory over Blinkmoth Nexus, doesn't flying sounds great?

[dahcmai]

If there's anything I don't like about the deck it's the manabase. It just seems scary to not have basics to me anymore. I guess even under a back to basics you can always just sac them all day and replay them off crucible but I get wary of having to resort to things like that.

I'm working on something similar though I am using blue for Transmute artifact so I can combo out by saccing a su-chi to transmute and get Possessed portals. Basically the same idea otherwise. I might borrow some ideas from this. I like the phyrexian warbeasts, I forgot how good they were.



@Tsabo - Mishra's deal 2 damage, blinkmoths take two turns to do the same. Since you're playing beatdown every point that can get in counts so speed is of the essence.

[Evil Roopey]

Eight plains isnt enough basics?? That's more basics than most decks in this format run. I don't see your point.

[Son_Gozen]

how do the NQG MUs look like??? i want to play it but i don´t know how it works against NQG

[Bane of the Living]

Control and Aggro stac both have great matchups against them. Wastelock is god, and you drop a lock piece or threat every turn. NQG cant counter a spell every turn and starts losing the uphill battle when things like Chalice resolve.

[Evil Roopey]

The Gro matchup is the main reason to even play this deck. The only reason I even played it at the D4Ds was it's amazing match against Gro.

[Tacosnape]

This might be ridiculous, but have you ever considered Jhoira's Toolbox in this deck? He's small, but he eliminates that whole element of Juggernaut being chump blocked into oblivion, and he can pick up equipment with the best of them.

[Anusien]

Bumping the crap out of this thread.

Is White really the direction to go? The problem I keep running into is being on the draw and not having a good 1 or 2 drop to throw at Goblins. I have an interesting proposition: Goblin Welder. If they kill him or he jumps in front of Goblins, good for him. Otherwise, he's going to do ridiculousness with Crucible + Darksteel Citadel, Tangle Wire, and dodging removal. I think after a certain point you're saying "Please Swords my Goblin Lackey instead of my Juggernaut who has picked up Jitte or SoFI." Red also gives you Pyroclasm in the board.

Also, why the Chalice main? I mean, I get it, but don't you already beat the crap out of Thresh and Gobs on the play? Everytime I've played the build or seen it in action, it felt like it needed a few more creatures and the 4th Crucible; and I went ahead and added a few extra mana sources.

[Tacosnape]

Well I'm glad people still remember this deck exists. I've been tweaking it around ever since scrapping Club Dread and I've rolled my way into a less Crucible-dependent build that gains extra threats from manlands. Here's what I'm running:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Rishadan Port
1 Crystal Vein
4 Mox Diamond

4 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Cathodion
4 Juggernaut
3 Su-Chi
2 Razormane Masticore

SIDEBOARD:
4 Winter Orb
4 Defense Grid
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere


This is essentially a far less Crucible-dependent build. The plus side is it runs better without a Crucible on the board, has a more stable (if slightly less explosive) Mana base, does more with its lands, and so forth. The downside is, well, you have less Crucibles to break the format with.

To start with, I didn't like Phyrexian War Beast. He caused tempo loss whenever getting owned if a Crucible was in play, and with all the lands I tended to sacrifice, sometimes it was worse. So I cut him and left his slot open. The problem is, there wasn't anything jumping out at me to replace him with. Grr. I wanted to cut Su-Chi, also, because taking mana burn was annoying. but finally I decided to go the other route and just add Cathodion instead. This meant needing manlands, which helped the deck's problem of not having enough threats from time to time. It also let me do fantastically sneaky modular stuff by rolling Ravager's counters onto Mishra's Factory / Blinkmoth Nexus, pump the mana from Cathodion / Su-Chi into it, and sacrifice Cathodion / Su-Chi to the ravager whenever I needed to drop out my next addition, which was Razormane Masticore.

Razormane Masticore is what you want if you're playing in a metagame that's rife with rogue decks. Razormane destroys so many random aggro decks it's ridiculous. Draw cards to fuel him off SOFI, pitch dead midgame Moxen, pitch lands and replay them off Crucible, rock on. Plus, if he gets out quick enough, he can singlehandedly swing the tide against Goblins without you needing equipment, which is very useful on game 2 after Goblins opens with a flurry of pithing needles.

The rest is pretty much similar to the original build. Darksteel Citadel went for Blinkmoth Nexus, giving me eight man-lands for the 12 creatures that synergize with them. Rishadan Port's been a help on top of Wasteland, but it may get cut to bring Crystal Vein back. I fluctuate on those three slots. I cut a Trinisphere for a Jitte to go 3/3, because multiple of either is useless but I really like drawing one of either in their respective good matchups. I stuck copy 4 of the Trinisphere in the board, along with copies 3-4 of Crucible for the matches when they're most needed.

I also didn't like Uba Mask in the board, but this is possibly due to my own ignorance. What matchups was it supposed to be brought in against?

[Machinus]

EDIT: removed inflammatory comments

No color can fix the topdeck problem; white remains the best color for stax even if no color can alleviate this problem due to the removal.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I didnt mean that he MADE angel stax, but hes built it, so i have testing with and against it. Sorry for that misunderstanding

[Windux]

What about the new Time Vault combo in this Deck?
Time Vault alone would dead, but Mizzium not.
It can be an Equiment or a beater.
But what too cut? i mean you need 8 Slots for effective using.

Trinisphere moving to the Sideboard?

Here is my List:
//NAME: 5/Mizzium

// Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
8 (Snow) Plains

// Creatures
3 Juggernaut
4 Phyrexian War Beast (Phyrexian Ironfoot)
4 Synod Centurion

// Spells
4 Time Vault
4 Mox Diamond
3 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mizzium Transreliquat

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Smokestack
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Wrath of God
SB: 4 Faith's Fetters

New Creature:
Phyrexian Ironfoot, 3
Snow Artifact Creature - Construct 3/4
Phyrexian Ironfoot doesn't untap during your untap step.
{1}{S}: Untap Phyrexian Ironfoot. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.)

You dont have the Drawback to sacrifice a Land, which can be really hurt.
The Drawback that it doenst untap normally can be hugh if you have no Snow Plain, but if you have 2, you can easilly attack and untap it to block the same time.

[Al-ucard]

And why not use red splash and covetous dragon?

[Tacosnape]

The answer to every "Why not splash ____ for ____ question" is because then you have to run lands in the deck that don't A: produce 2 mana, or B: do insane awesome shit.

Mishra's Factory / Wasteland = awesome sauce. I have Nexus/Port in my build as well (I lose a tiny bit of speed from crystal vein, but my manabase is more stable.) Nexus/Factory/Crucible gives me recurring kill conditions against anything ever, and Wasteland/Crucible and Port gives me crazy mana disruption. If you get your build right of this deck, you can have the near-auto win against Gro while maintaining positive matches against Solidarity and Rifter. Goblins is still tough, but it's hard to say they're favored.

And cutting Trinisphere to SB is one less disruption bomb you have to go with your clocks on Solidarity. When you start coming out with Juggernauts and other baddies accompanied by Trinisphere, Chalice, and Tangle Wire (If you run it), Solidarity seems less invincible. That said, besides Solidarity and any match where you can establish Crucible/Wasteland lock, Trinisphere isn't that consistently useful.

[SuckerPunch]

Tacoscape, since you run Mox Diamond anyways, you only need to change 8 lands to support another color. Darksteel Citadel does next to nothing, and Crystal Vein isn't too hot either. Both lands are replacable. Besides, the acceleration that Crystal Vein occasionally provides is made up for by Dark Ritual 10 fold.

Hence, this is the list I'm proposing. It has a faster clock and runs overall better creatures...

The below list is the combined result of lolosoon and I.

//Mana
9 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Su-Chi

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Persecute/Priest of Gix/Jitte

I like forgoing some of the more conditional spells for speed and aggression. It gives it better game against decks like Goblins while also speeding it up to the point where with even a single Chalice or Trinisphere, you can easily race combo.

Dark Ritual is such a huge bonus for this deck that I can't justify running Mono Brown or worse yet, White. Angels are decent but unneeded when you're running this many high powered creatures already.

This deck did very well in testing. I beat a bunch of random decks on MWS.

Chalice + Trinisphere + Wastelands own.

I recommend that you try out this build.

The reason I made the choices I made.

Gix may seem random but it's there because it speeds you up one full turn which is great versus combo. Gix lets you have a three turn clock when you cast it off a first turn ritual with negator. Or when you cast it along with Trinisphere, by the time they can recover Sphere, it already deals 8 damage or so. It lets you race fast combo, and that's insane.

But if you don't face much combo, or in a more mixed meta, I certainly run SOFI over it.

Confidant would be nice since it draws cards but with the tombs and the high cc cards, it's too much life loss. Besides this is a fast aggressive deck. And it had bad synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.

Negator may scare some people, but you can't argue with it's clock. I usually cast it later on, when I can afford to sac away my lands if they burn it or something. By that point, just one or two attacks from Negator seals the game. When I'm playing combo, Negator is always a turn one play.

[Windux]

At first the List, i played on 2 Tournaments:

//NAME: MizziumBeats

// Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
8Plains

// Creatures
2 Juggernaut
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Synod Centurion

// Spells
4 Time Vault
4 Mox Diamond
3 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawas Jitte
3 Trinisphere
4 Mizzium Transreliquat

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Smokestack
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshare
SB: 4 Exalted Angel
SB: 1 Tangle Wire
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I played one 4-3 (losed to AngelStompy because one game Screw and one game he had the Disenchant for my Chalice which was my only artifact with Centurio), Landstill (2 games totally got screwed because of Wastelands) and 1 Burndeck (Boros with critters)

Today I played 4-1 only losing to Landstill (Goddraw on his Side).

I won against:
Spring Tide 2x
NQG/r 1x
Suicide/monoBlack 1x
RG Beats 2x
and i forgot the others.

Im thinking the Exalteds are just bad. Your other critter are better and waaaayyy easier to cast. You don't really have WW to flip Angel. I think we should play some Artifactremoval or so.
Burning-Tree Shaman just sucks. Today I won against 2 Burning-Tree Shamans because of Mizzium Transrequilant Tricks (Oh you attack? Copy my tapped War Beast block your Tree-Shaman giving -1/-1 from Jitte and the other BTS are killed by 4 Jitte-Counters) and started the combo (who lay down 3-4 Roudns but I was too low on life to start 4-5 Extraturns to find more land to still gainign Extraturns and play+Equip Creatures....

And Pithing Needle is also really bad. Ok, you have your Plan C (or A? or B? Or a combination between all three? Just board it in ;) ), but if you going to start the Aggroplan and he drops needle, is as bad as he drops Needle if you want to combo off.
Im thinking about Disenchant or Powder Keg (also good against NQG)

[SuckerPunch]

Has anyone considered the black splash I posted right above.

It adds a lot to the deck.

Dark Ritual is incredible acceleration.

Scuta and Negator are better than your current creature options.

And Persecute is a truly solid disruption option.

[lolosoon]

First, congrats for your results with the deck.


Im thinking the Exalteds are just bad. Your other critter are better and waaaayyy easier to cast. You don't really have WW to flip Angel. I think we should play some Artifactremoval or so.
I can't see why you drop the Angels to SB (along with StP, which could be dropped for Keg imho), they're the main reason to run the white splash. Is getting to WW is that problematic with 8 plains + Mox Diamonds ?
You said you had some trouble to "go off" with the Vault/Mizzium combo due to a low life count. Angels could be an answer.

Still, I understand you must had to found some rooms for 4x Vaults 4x Mizzium.

But how do you feel with 5 pieces of equipment for only 10 critters (+ 4 Factories) where a decks like AngleStompy runs at least 16-18 for their 7 SoFI/Jittes/Masks ?
Looking at your results it seems like it ran Ok for you, but don't you want to draw into extra beatstick from time to time ?!
Or maybe you count Mizzium as a creature ?

I was wondering : if your opponent drop a needle on TimeVault, is Mizzium dead cold ?

[Lukas Preuss]

We should have a different thread on the Mizzium/TimeVault deck, since it plays a lot different than traditional 5/3.

Windux has done pretty well with the deck at the last two tournaments... it was pretty impressive. I agree that the equipment might be too much, though.

I thought about cutting white from the deck and adding blue f&#252;r Transmute Artifact to get the combo a lot faster. Transmute Artifact would be a really good tutor for this deck, since you're running a hell lot of artifact creatures.

In case you don't know what the card does:

--------------------------------------
Transmute Artifact UU
Antiquities uncommon, Sorcery

As an additional cost to play Transmute Artifact, sacrifice an artifact.

Search your library for an artifact card. If that card's converted mana cost is less than or equal to the sacrificed artifact's converted mana cost, put it into play. If it's greater, you may pay the cost difference. If you do, put it into play. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard. Then shuffle your library.
--------------------------------------


edit: @windux: It was pretty funny how Bodenbender tried to name the Mizzium Transreliquat with his Pithing Needle:
Bodenbender (yelling through the entire store): "Ah, what's its name again... can't think of it... something with Izzet"
Windux: "I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you mean Izzet Signet?"
;D

[Windux]

Jeah that was funny.
I mean, i knew what he was thinking about, but why should I interrupt him in using his Brain for the very first time? :)
I mean after a few other tries with "Izzet Planetarium" or "Izzet Growth Chamber?" I had told him the card..but..you know: It was just too funny to say it him that early :D

Im testing this week Suppresion Fields in the Sideboard.

Mizzium Transrequilant counts as a creature. even if you copy your opponents Mishras Factory it can be very useful. Most Time you only need 1-2 Creatures and equip it to win or even just to stall 3-4 Rounds to get new Threads.

A hint from me: If you know your opponent cant cast Stifle (Chalice 1) or even dont play it, allways untap your Time Vault. A drawn TangleWire early can give you a free extraturn (i did this a few times, because my opponent just needed to tap out or tap that much, that he can't do anything with his turn). You then can drop a creature and next round Equip it and attack. Or in your regular Turn attack and in your Extraturn untap it for the blocking.

Since Im thinking to cut the Exalted Angel, im not shure if its a good idea to play blue for Transmute Artifact. I also dont want to paly Thirst for Knowledge, because you need one turn to cast it and just can cast the next turn your threads...it kinda slows you down.

[kicks_422]

I'm very interested in the deck, especially now that it got 3rd at Kadilak's DLD... I was wondering what it's mu's are against the popular decks, and what to sideboard against them... :tongue:

Also, is Karn a good creature for the deck? It could make all the Trinispheres and Crucibles and stuff into creatures for one big swing for the win... :tongue:

[Jander78]

I'm very interested in the deck, especially now that it got 3rd at Kadilak's DLD... I was wondering what it's mu's are against the popular decks, and what to sideboard against them... :tongue:

Also, is Karn a good creature for the deck? It could make all the Trinispheres and Crucibles and stuff into creatures for one big swing for the win... :tongue:
You probably don't ever want to swing with Trinisphere as it defeats the whole purpose of playing it. Once it taps, they have free reign to cast spells costing less than 3. Karn is pretty bad in this deck as there are really only a few targets to animate. Most of the time he will be a 4/4 for 5 mana because this deck tends to be more aggro based and run creatures and not as many lock pieces.

Here is my latest list post tournament:

Artifact-Aggro (Jander78 - 08/08/2006)

//Stall/Lock/Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire

//Creatures
4 Juggernaut
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Synod Centurion
3 Su-Chi
2 Myr Enforcer

//Utility
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

//Mana
4 Mox Diamond
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland

I know a lot of this has already been discussed, but just to reiterate some of the card choices:

Creatures:
Juggernaut - Obvious cheap beater that is quick to come down and quick to finish things off.

Phyrexian War Beast - Lot's of potential to come down turn 1, he has a big ass and is quite a problem for a lot of decks. His drawback has yet to really phase me.

Synod Centurion - One of the more unconventional choices for this deck. A 4/4 for 4 mana is what this deck strives for. I have yet to run into a scenario where the drawbacks on this have given me a problem. If you play smart, there will always be artifacts in play.

Myr Enforcer - Almost always costs 4 or less. Only 2 MD because he is generally cast turn 4 or later due to the requirement to build affinity up.

Su-Chi - An old but good card. Not really abusive in this deck, but still a solid creature for the mana cost. Factories and Nexi make the drawback a lot less significant.

Lock Pieces:
Tangle Wire - Really a solid card to slow down control and combo. Allows you to tap down the opponent and provides a lot of stall to avoid counters and to get creatures through a tough defense.

Trinisphere - Another solid card on its own. Really hoses combo and requires them to find an answer while you put the pressure on. First turn potential makes this a must counter in the early game.

Chalice of the Void - Makes what would be some of your worst matchups into favorable matches. Drawing one of these early against Burn, Threshold, Solidarity, or even Goblins can buy you the time to ride your creatures to victory. It fits perfect in your mana curve as you have no 1 or 2 casting cost spells and are not harmed by dropping these in the first few turns.

Crucible of Worlds - Not necessarily a lock piece, but against decks with a lot of non-basics or even smaller based aggro decks it can be. Recurring Wastelands and Man-lands can really give you the game on their own. It also is a huge hand in smothing out the awkward mana base that this deck requires.

Utility:
Sword of Fire and Ice - I'm not a big fan of equipment, but this card is too good to ignore. It turns one creature in to almost a two turn clock. It also makes manlands threateing as they can get around any sorcery speed removal (Wrath, Mutilate, Decree of Pain....etc.). Also, the pro. Red and Blue is nothing to scoff at looking at a lot of the more popularly played decks.

Mana:
This is the decks biggest weakness. I finally feel comfortable with the mana base that I have been using. There are quite the number of cards that can be a liablity should you play wrong. Mox Diamond can be countered. You have to know when to play or hold a City of Traitors. The Man-lands give you added creature support. Nexus has the ability to get around Moat, which has actually proven usefull. Iif you play these cards correctly the mana base will work out smooth. Just be aware that a smart opponent will watch for certain errors when you are playing with a sketchy mana base as this one.


Matchup analysis:
*disclaimer....I refuse to post %'s as they are generally incorrect and biased. I will give my educated opinion with the deck as favorable or unfavorable based on testing results/tournament experience.
Threshold - Favorable. Really put the pressure on early. They don't generally run main deck board sweeping effects, so you should be good to drop a lot of creatures. An early Chalice or Trinisphere will really get you in a good position easily. From the sideboard you have the options of Tormod's Crypt and Smokestack which can both give them large issues.

Goblins - Somewhat Favorable. All of your creatures come down as quick as theirs, but your's have a much larger toughness. First turn lackey can always be trouble some. Early Chalice or Trinisphere can be golden in this matchup as well. Caltrops is a decent sideboard options to stop early beats and Sword of Fire and Ice can really ruin their day.

Solidarity/High Tide - Slightly Favorable. Now that the word is out, I have a inkling that Rebuild is going to show up in a lot of sideboards. This is another match where early Chalice or Trinisphere will buy you a few turns and give them a headache. Smokestack is an excellent sideboard option against them as they run no permanents and it can lock them out of the game quickly.

Mono-R Burn - Unfavorable. Not generally a concern with most decks or in most environments, but this deck can ruin your day. You really need an early Chalice to stop their spells. Price of Progress is absolutely terrible, so save your Wastelands for your own lands. Be very cautious of Ancient Tomb. Sword of Fire and Ice is excellent in this matchup.

Rifter/Wombat Unfavorable. This deck is full of removal and you will have a tough time dealing with it. Manlands are excellent in the matchup. Sword of Fire and Ice is a god under Humility. Play efficient and don't over extend into Wrath of God.

Rock/Dirt/IBA.dec - Even/Slightly Unfavorable. Game one is going to be tough. Just put the pressure on and try to use Wastelands to lock them out of green. Pithing Needle is an amazing sideboard card to stop a lot of cards in their deck. Just be sure to name cautiously.

Tendrils based combo - Highly Favorable. You have way too many ways to give them a hard path to victory. All of your soft lock peices stop them from going off and force them to find an answer while you swing with you creatures.

Non-inclusions:
Goblin Welder - As amazing as this guy can be, he just doesn't fit in this environment. Not only does it make the manabase a little less accelerated, it is not as useful as it seems. Just remember, this is not a lock deck. It is an aggro deck with stall peices. Welder can do amazing things, but his slots in this deck are better used towards its main focus.

Masticore - Originally I had included this guy in the deck. I found it useless and really just a 4/4 for 4 mana that makes you discard a card every turn. His ability is fine, but unnecessary as your creatures are already bigger than anything in the format and pinging is not generally required. He may be a nice sideboard options should the environment require such a tool, but maindeck is not required.

Smokestack - I was on the fence on this for a while, but looking at the deck, Smokestack is not part of the main focus here. While being a great tool against decks with a low permanent count, Stack just is another overkill card in the maindeck. You need to apply pressure early and Stack is added stall where you already have better options maindeck. It can be brought in from the sideboard to keep certain decks in check.



I know a lot of the matchups I posted come off as unfavorable, but in a field expected of a lot of the top decks, this deck will do you wonders. It has good matchups against the top tier decks which is what makes this deck desireable to play. This deck also has the arsenal of almost any artifact to tailor its sideboard to. It makes it a little more versitle and can help with some of the more unfavorable matchups should you expect them in your environment.

[Zilla]

Rifter/Wombat Unfavorable. This deck is full of removal and you will have a tough time dealing with it. Manlands are excellent in the matchup. Sword of Fire and Ice is a god under Humility. Play efficient and don't over extend into Wrath of God.
Winter Orb destroys these decks. I dunno if you can play around it yourself, but I imagine with all the 2 mana lands you can better than they can. It's also great against Train Wreck etc. If that doesn't pan out, Ankh of Mishra is savage against all of these archetypes as well.

[Windux]

What does your Sideboard look in your monoBrown version?
Is also though about, since I'm cutting the Exalted Angels.

4 Juggernauts seems to be bad, because its only a x/3. I rather would play a 4/4 for 4 mana.

[kicks_422]

I love 5/3's explosiveness and prison elements, and I love the flying fatties and draw of Faerie Stompy... And since they're using roughly the same manabase and some artifacts as control elements, I figured why not take a stab at a hybrid?

Here's a rough draft...

Faerie 5/3

Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island

Creatures
4 Juggernaut
4 Synod Centurion
4 Serendib Efreet

Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Fact or Fiction

SB
4 Wash Out
4 Winter Orb
4 Defense Grid
3 Sphere of Resistance

I'd love to fit in some Crucibles... Maybe move 1 Trinisphere to the SB and then either remove 2 lands or 1 land and SofI for 3 CoW?

I'm still looking for a suitable replacement for Juggernaut, but as the deck's namesake, it's probably going to stay in there...

SB's really sketchy... Needs some work, but I think it shows promise...

I thought of this idea because I wanted a fat flyer and draw in 5/3... And that I wanted more lock elements and beef in Faerie Stompy... :tongue:

[Jander78]

Winter Orb destroys these decks. I dunno if you can play around it yourself, but I imagine with all the 2 mana lands you can better than they can. It's also great against Train Wreck etc. If that doesn't pan out, Ankh of Mishra is savage against all of these archetypes as well.
That does sound like a decent option and this deck could function under a Winter Orb. Quite honestly, I'm just not too concerned with facing the Rifter matchup. It's not a deck that I think can compete in today's environment, so even though I felt it necessary to test against, I don't necessarily think it is required to sideboard against. If Winter Orb has other positives against different decks or if Rifter is more heavily played, then I may reconsider.

In the sideboard for a standard tournament I would probably run:
3 Pithing Needle (Deed)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Random reanimate, SotF, Threshold, Opposing Crucible)
3-4 Smokestack (Solidarity, possibly Thresh, Rifter)
2-3 Duplicant (Exalted Angel, Other Fatties)
2-3 Caltrops (Goblins, Weenies..)
0-2 Masticore/Keg/O. Stone/etc. (board control)

I'd also like to point out that I'm a pretty firm believer that this deck does not want to splash a color. Splashing a color does give it more versitality, but it takes a lot of focus away from the deck. Losing either Manlands or 2 mana lands (or both) can really distract from how this deck plays and it's consistency.

[Al-ucard]

What do you think about Jotun Grunt? maybe we can exchange it for the 2-3 copies of Juggernaut and this way all our creatures have more than 3 toughtness... And don't forget that is a good creature against Threshold decks...

Oh, and we shold rename the deck to 4/4 XD

Actually this is my list:

Lands
7 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond

Creatures
4 Exalted Angel
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Synod Centurion
2 Jotun Grunt

Others
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
3 Armageddon
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hanna's Custody / Karmic Justice
3 Silent Arbiter

I don't know whic card is better if Custody or Justice...

[Bane of the Living]

I think with Janders recent success the deck should move to open.

[dre4m]

My teammate Steve played this deck exceedingly well at Gencon, and would have probably made Top 8 had a Solidarity player not cast the world's luckiest Brain Freeze into a Flash of Insight that let him go off with three lands. Steve didn't ask his opponents if they were regged, so I couldn't tell you who that was, but the deck ran very very well against the field, and he had a great time using 3Sphere and Chalice to shut down virtually every deck he faced, but one thing me mentioned preturbed me a little bit, and that was the Sword of Fire and Ice was the worst card in his deck all day. He seemed to be siding it out in nearly every match, and I was wondering if someone like Jander for example had made a similar discovery.

[Jander78]

Sword of Fire and Ice is one of the best peices of equipment available for this type of deck. It allows you to not overextend into removal and the Pro Red/Blue isn't too bad as well. I can see where this card maybe a bit cumbersome in certain matchups as in certain situations you want to control the board and not worry about having such a fast clock. You want to be able to put the pressure on the opponent asap. Sword of Fire and Ice allows every threat you drop (even manlands) to be a threat that needs to be dealt with in the next couple of turns or it's too late.

I have honestly never been unhappy to draw SoFI and I don't see it is being excessive (any more equipment would be). It allows the pilot to use creatures more efficiently to force the opponent to use key creature removal and board-sweeping effects on single threats. In the combo matchup this is probably a good candidate to come out of the maindeck for sideboard options, but against aggro and standard control, it is a huge asset.

[Al-ucard]

I really think that this deck needs more creatures, maybe we have to reach to 16 creatures and 3-4 SoFI... In aggro matchups i tested if you don't draw a creature you lose...

[Jander78]

I really think that this deck needs more creatures, maybe we have to reach to 16 creatures and 3-4 SoFI... In aggro matchups i tested if you don't draw a creature you lose...
My build runs 17 creatures with the addition of 7 more manlands. I can't imagine adding anymore than that.

[Al-ucard]

My build runs 17 creatures with the addition of 7 more manlands. I can't imagine adding anymore than that.

This way you lose very important cards against control decks... Anyway... I supose that your list is mono brown... Mine is with a white splash.
I believe that the solution is to change the list and put less creatures in a control oriented meta and put more creatures in a more agro oriented metagame...

[dre4m]

This way you lose very important cards against control decks... Anyway... I supose that your list is mono brown... Mine is with a white splash.

What important cards? Your deck has Angel, which is much harder to cast than any of the myriad of artifact fatties, and Grunt, which is easily supplanted by colourless 4/4's. You get some sideboard cards, but monobrown can deal with anything that your sideboard cards can, I think. What 'very important' cards does he lose? Angel? That is your VICC? How important is that against control? Early beats requiring double white with lifegain? You wouldn't rather be playing Chalice, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, or a Crucible/Waste lock?

[Al-ucard]

What important cards? Your deck has Angel, which is much harder to cast than any of the myriad of artifact fatties, and Grunt, which is easily supplanted by colourless 4/4's. You get some sideboard cards, but monobrown can deal with anything that your sideboard cards can, I think. What 'very important' cards does he lose? Angel? That is your VICC? How important is that against control? Early beats requiring double white with lifegain? You wouldn't rather be playing Chalice, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, or a Crucible/Waste lock?

I wanted to say that if you add more creatures you have to quit no-creature cards like trinisphere, crucible or tangle (maybe the better option is this one).

Anyway, the last list I post is an experimental one, I'm not using jotun grunt and lately I'm experiencing problems with the double W that angel requires... this takes me to the mono brown path... The more I playtest the splash version, the more I'm conviced that mono brown is better...

[Hanni]

The deck probably doesn't need this, but Cranial Plating looks like it would be amazing here. It lacks the amount of control it gives compared to SoFI but it isn't as cumbersome and I can see it getting out of hand extremely fast. Possibly adding Vault of Whispers in the Citadel spots or something. 2cc artifact with 1 to equip, making your Juggernaut something like 13/3. Just an idea, although you probably don't need it.

[Al-ucard]

The deck probably doesn't need this, but Cranial Plating looks like it would be amazing here. It lacks the amount of control it gives compared to SoFI but it isn't as cumbersome and I can see it getting out of hand extremely fast. Possibly adding Vault of Whispers in the Citadel spots or something. 2cc artifact with 1 to equip, making your Juggernaut something like 13/3. Just an idea, although you probably don't need it.


The equipments for this deck were discussed yet some pages ago and the conclusion was that SoFi is the better equipment this deck has access to. We don't need to put much more pressure, the only problem SoFI has is that equipped creatures can be chump blocked.

Oh, and don't forget that we need to avoid to use cc 1 and 2 cards... Because of Chalice of the Void

[mercc]

So, I just scrubbed out of the Duel for Duals with possibly the most fun deck I've ever played in my life. It literally was just a blast to play, and a blast to watch as well. I doubt it is very fun to play against though. I obviously took it into the tournament with an amazing Goblins and Gro match-up, then didn't play them the first 3 rounds, and lost. :/


Maybe someone already asked this, but, what did you lose against apart from deadguy(which is hymn.dec?)? Would be interesting to know about the bad matchupes aswell :)

[Evil Roopey]

Maybe someone already asked this, but, what did you lose against apart from deadguy(which is hymn.dec?)? Would be interesting to know about the bad matchupes aswell :)

RGSA. FTK>5/3.

[Goblin Snowman]

Again, I know the reasons for the Monobrown Lists, but I felt that this deck could push it's aggro MUs higher with a black splash for The Abyss. It does nothing to harm you, and it's very easy to splash for with the single Black. This would be my primary reason to splash, but Black offers other things like Persecute, Guardian Beast (not quite Custody, but it can protect land or lock pieces), Night of Soul's Betrayal (8====> Goblins even more) or Nether Void. anyone have any thought on this?

[Evil Roopey]

Again, I know the reasons for the Monobrown Lists, but I felt that this deck could push it's aggro MUs higher with a black splash for The Abyss. It does nothing to harm you, and it's very easy to splash for with the single Black. This would be my primary reason to splash, but Black offers other things like Persecute, Guardian Beast (not quite Custody, but it can protect land or lock pieces), Night of Soul's Betrayal (8====> Goblins even more) or Nether Void. anyone have any thought on this?

Black has 4 mana 5/5's. Someone should get on a list.

[Goblin Snowman]

And 4 mana 6/6s (Grinning Demon). But if you do that, you open yourself up to killing your own guys with the Abyss. A few nonartifact creatures would likely be ok though. I don't have a list, since I have not played the deck enough as of yet. I was hoping you could decide what the deck needed least.

EDIT - Other playable black creatures include - Skittering Horror, Mercenary Knight, Derelor, Kezzerdrix, Yukora, the Prisoner, Juzam Djinn (if you have them), Grinning Demon, Hidden Horror, and Ebon Drake.

Honorable Mention - Horobi, Death's Wail. It has great synergy with Equiptment I hear.

I'll work on a rough list with black splash and try and get it up later.

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried Lodestone Myr in the Monobrown version?

[Hanni]

I like the idea of splashing black for Dark Ritual, Duress/Cabal Therapy, and Juzaam Djinn.

[Goblin Snowman]

I like the idea of splashing black for Dark Ritual, Duress/Cabal Therapy, and Juzaam Djinn.

One mana spells - Bad synergy with 3Sphere and Chalice. Rit's useless with either out. Djinn is great, but $$$. I'm no sure whether I like Phyrexian Scuta, Grinning Demon, Ebon Drake (3/3 with flying and a minor drawback? Count me in!) or Skittering Horror. I am totally sold on The Abyss, and am deciding if Persecute has merit.

[Jaynel]

Phyrexian Scuta might cause cause too much of a life loss, in conjunction with Ancient Tomb, especially without Exalted Angel to help out. Same with most of the other creatures you mentioned. Sword of Light and Shadow or Loxodon Warhammer would probably be a step backward, so I'd suggest running other black men.

I think white is the best splash, though.

[lolosoon]

I think white is the best splash, though.

QFT. Angel + Grunt are the best beatsticks to run beside the Artifacts one (Centurion, Warbeast and, rarely, Juggernaut).

White has a better long-term run than black, the last having a more explosive start.

For those you want to pick some ideas for a 5/3 Black Splashed, please take a look to my Phyrexian Stompy decklist :

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3914&page=2

Threads are here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=80131), and here (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=291244)


@monobrown 5/3 : Is it dead cold or does the inclusion of BlinkmotNexus, Rishadan Port and, eventually, more lockpieces (Smokestack, 2Sphere, Winter Orb, Mizzium Transreliquat, Defense Grid...) or beasts (Masticore, Karn, Juggernaut...) make it as viable as the White Splashed one ?!

[Goblin Snowman]

With me playing it, Angel was sometimes diffucult to cast/not aggro enough for me. Grunt is insane good though, at hosing Lftl/NQG/things that can't deal with fast 4/4s. Negater is actully the most playable black creature now thta I've had some time and played a bit more. The Abyss eats 3+ creatures every game it hits, and would eat more if they lived long enough.

[Tacosnape]

@monobrown 5/3 : Is it dead cold or does the inclusion of BlinkmotNexus, Rishadan Port and, eventually, more lockpieces (Smokestack, 2Sphere, Winter Orb, Mizzium Transreliquat, Defense Grid...) or beasts (Masticore, Karn, Juggernaut...) make it as viable as the White Splashed one ?!

I've been doing really well with a Monobrown 5/3, actually. I cut SoFi, picked up Rishadan Port, Mishra's Factory, and Blinkmoth Nexus, and am running Cathodion / Su-Chi, who have very minor drawbacks with eight manlands.

I run Jitte, Crucible, Chalice, Trinisphere, and Tangle Wire maindeck, along with Ravager, Cathodion, Su-Chi, Juggernaut, and I've been trying out War Beast.

[laststepdown]

Don't forget Phyrexian Scuta. However, Negator is the cheapest 5/5 you will find in black. What do you guys think about an incorporation of Time Vault/Transreliquat(sp)? Is it even relevant? The Mizzium can copy a Juggy or Su-Chi for another beater if need be, so it's not completely dead without the Vault.

[Koby]

If you're looking for Copy Artifact, look at Sculpting Steel. It's 3 mana cheaper than Mizzium Relesquat to copy. I am aware it doesn't interact with Time Vault, but I don't believe that was the purpose of the deck anyway.

[Goblin Snowman]

If anyone's wondering, here's the list I'm using for Black 5/3.

Disruption
3x Tanglewire
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void

Creature Control
3x The Abyss
4x SoF&I

Mad Beatz
4x Phyrexian War Beast
2x Phyrexian Negater
4x Juggernaut
1 Skittering Horror
4x Razormane Masticore. (Could be Grid Moniter/other fat, but I really like him, since he pretty much autowins against Goblins and alot of Tier 2 Decks)

The Mana
3x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Port
2x Factory
7x Swamp
3x City of Traitors (I cut 1x and Vein since I don't run CoW)

Sideboard
2x Crypt
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x The Abyss
1x Nature's Ruin/Perish
4x Plague Spitter
2x Persecute
2x Negater
1x Tanglewire.

I'm going to be taking this to a Local Tourney and should have a report in a week or two, when my stuff comes.

[Goblin Snowman]

Sorry about the 2x Post


Ok, here's that report. I used the list above with a few changes.
-1 Skittering Horror, +1 Negator. -1 Juggeraut, -1 SOFaI (only had 3 on me) +2 Synod Centurion. The board was 4 Cursed Totem (RGSA and Tog were in force last week) 3 Leyline of the Void (I have good luck with these, evidenced later) 4 Plague Spitter (Deadguy and Goblins, meh) 1 Negator (Good), 3 Sphere of Resistence (I wanted to side Nagator out, since burn was hanging around, and it's not bad against them.)

Game One - 4c Thres
Oh goody! He goes T1 land, cantrip. I go Cotv. He doesn't counter. His Werebear was no match for Tanglewire, and Cotv @ 2 next turn sealed the deal.
- 2 Negator, -1 The Abyss. I saw red, and freaked. Since I didn't know his creature base, it could have been Problack guys and Mongooses, so I took out 1. +3 Leyline. I was thinking about Sphere of Resistence, but decided not to.
I get a turn 0 Leyline, with Chalice turn one against, and it resolves again! The game ends in short order.

Game 2 - Monoblack Jank.
He mulls to 5, and I get T1 negator, and Tanglewire him to death. No board, since I only saw 3 swamps.
He gets out a Sanguine Guard (WTF, I know) with Unholy Strength to match my Sword Wielding Juggernaut. Mine's bigger, and Tanglewire prevented Regen.

Game 3 - Aggro Rock We had played pretourney, and I had a good matchup
I do broken things with Negator and Sword and 3x Wasteland and 3Sphere. Too many ands, I know.
G2 was long, long game. The Abyss eats every creature he has, untill he's left with a Treetop Village, and one card in hand. I have Jugs, SoFaI, and 3Sphere in hand, factory and port as my good lands on board. I cast Jugs, he rips Putrafy, Blackmails me taking 3Sphere. (Thinking, wtf? Later he told me he didn't see Factory, and he only had 4 lands with could have be Ported and Wasted) I win with Factory and Sword.

Game 4 - Aggro Stompy Enchantress Flying Thing ID, but we play for kicks
He goes forest, Thopter, Rancor it. I go Swamp, go. He goes Briar Shield, rancor, beat for 5. I go Factory, go. He goes Ancestral Mask. for +6/+6, beat for 11. i Scoop.
I Chalice at 0 and 1 on the 1st turn. He has no creatures with CC above 1.
I Chalice at 1 and 0 on the 1st turn. I repeat: He has no creatures with CC above 1 .

Top 4, I get paired against Rifter. Never tested this.
During the course of game one I learned one important thing. He mains Needle. I learned that after my only hope, SoFaI, was dropped with no creature on board facing Humility. He goes needle.
-3 Trinisphere, -3 The Abyss, +4 Plague Spitters (Needed threats under Humility and Decree sucks) +1 Negator, +1 Leyline for Dragon.
I get a turn 0 Leyline with the one I boarded in. He shows me 3x Dragon. I do silly things with Chalice and 1 and 2, making 6 cards in his hand useless. Facing Jugs with Sword he scooped.
He got mana screwed, aided and abetted by Wasteland and Port game three. And I had T1 Negator, which is good I hear.

Split 1st and 2nd, the other guy was playing Aggro Rock which I beat earlier, I just had to go in about 10 minutes and didn't card that badly about $5

[laststepdown]

Why Mox Diamond over Lotus Petal? I'd figure it would be better accel regardless.

[overlord95]

Why Mox Diamond over Lotus Petal? I'd figure it would be better accel regardless.
How so? Mox Diamond stays around after you use it as opposed to lotus petal which is one a time thing.

[kicks_422]

After constant tinkering for a while, here's the build I've come up with...

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Crystal Vein

4 Phyrexian War-Beast
4 Synod Centurion
4 Su-Chi
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Crucible of Worlds

SB
4 Defense Grid
3 Caltrops
3 Duplicant
5 ???

Su-Chi's dont hurt as much with eight manlands... And 4 Crucibles mean a greater chance of recurring threats...

As for the lack of Juggernauts, it's just my personal preference for now, as I'm trying out Razormanes... :tongue:

[Goblin Snowman]

[QUOTE=kicks_422;94524]
Su-Chi's dont hurt as much with eight manlands... And 4 Crucibles mean a greater chance of recurring threats...
QUOTE]

Please don't run Su-Chi. If you feel the need for a 4/4 for 4, Complex Automaton is better. Grid Monitor is better. Steel Golem is better. Having a 4/4 for 4 that reads, when XXX goes to GY, lose 4 life unless you have a manland in play is pretty bad. I mean, how often does this deck even hit 7 perms?

[kicks_422]

I mean, how often does this deck even hit 7 perms?

Almost every time, actually...

Like I said, I'm just trying out the creature config... I might go back and replace the Su-Chi with Juggernaut some time soon... :tongue:

[Jander78]

Su-Chi's dont hurt as much with eight manlands... And 4 Crucibles mean a greater chance of recurring threats...

Please don't run Su-Chi. If you feel the need for a 4/4 for 4, Complex Automaton is better. Grid Monitor is better. Steel Golem is better. Having a 4/4 for 4 that reads, when XXX goes to GY, lose 4 life unless you have a manland in play is pretty bad. I mean, how often does this deck even hit 7 perms?

I fail to see how any of the options listed have a less significant draw back. Not being able to play creatures in a deck stacked with them is a large nuisance. Also, limiting yourself to 7 permanents in a deck that likes to get down soft lock pieces is very restraining as well.

Su-chi has no drawback as far as I'm concerned. It is the only creature that is 4 mana for a 4/4 that doesn't limit your ability to play the cards in your deck. The mana burn can be troublesome in certain scenarios, he is playing with 10 cards (Manlands + Masticore) that allow for a mana sink should Su-chi take a dive, but it doesn't restrict the deck from playing out as designed.

[kicks_422]

Thank you Jander for a very thorough answer... :tongue:

I was also thinking about splashing blue to the deck for Fact or Fiction (taking out... SoFI?...) and then adding a couple Academy Ruins... What are everybody's thoughts on that? That would also open up the SB to more answers...

[Elfrago]

Well, maybe its just a stupid idea but... I thought on a 5 color version of the deck.
No, I'm serius.
Basically I'd change the mana base this way:
-4 Darksteel Citadel
-4 Crystal Vein

+4 Gemstone Mine
+4 Tendo Ice Bridge
And of course remember Mox Diamond!

(I did not consider City of Brass, Ancient Tomb eats a lot of our life points)

Of course cutting the Citadel hurts thanks to our opponents Wasteland, but I thought that with 18 or 22 wastable lands is more or less the same...

Then the deck may go in different ways, Im still thinking on the main deck: Green for Exploration, Black for discard, add Bolt or STP for removal, Blue for draw and so on...
And of course we could change some of our beaters! Hello serendib Efreet! Welcome Negator! Nice to see you Razorjaw Oni!

But what really makes worth playng 5 color is the SB!
Goblins? Hey I have a turn 1 or 2 Enginered Plague, and a Pyroclasm too...
Gro? Jotun Grunt kicks ass!
Solidarity? Mana Maze, Rule of Law, Pyrostatic Pillar!
And random stuff: Grip of Krosa, Stifle, Trickbind and son on!

[Bane of the Living]

In my experience allthecardsIown.dec has never worked very well. Most of the cards you mentioned dont even fall into 5/3's game plan. Exploration? Discard? Your playing aggro stacks dude.

[rsaunder]

So have you guys geven up on the blue splash completely now? It seems like academy ruins is just one more reason to run blue over everything else, as if serindeb and sea drake weren't enough already.

[kicks_422]

I've been tweaking a Faerie 5/3 list ever since TS came out... So far, what I'm having trouble with is finding the perfect balance of locks and beaters and the best creature configuration... I'm also thinking of what kind of draw to use... FoF, SoFI, or Thirst?...

[emidln]

With your accel, why on earth would you not play Boil in a 5c version against Solidarity, Gro/Thresh/Fish, U-based control?

[laststepdown]

because we already have chalice to kill solidarity and thresh.

[emidln]

8 cards alone do not fix the Solidarity matchup (Chalice + Trinisphere). You need at least 12, plus a fast clock, or you are relying on your opponent to have no countermagic at all, which is a pretty bad plan. Anyway, this was in response to the suggestion of a 5c build with Pyrostatic Pillar.

[Goblin Snowman]

8 cards alone do not fix the Solidarity matchup (Chalice + Trinisphere). You need at least 12, plus a fast clock, or you are relying on your opponent to have no countermagic at all, which is a pretty bad plan. Anyway, this was in response to the suggestion of a 5c build with Pyrostatic Pillar.

Just to point out, Tanglewire counts as Disruption, as does Port (Wasteland against Iggy Pop). If I really felt the need, I'd put in Sphere of Resistence in the place of Tanglewire or something.

[kicks_422]

Here's that Faerie 5/3 deck I'm working on... I've been testing so much (too much, I think) trying to work out the kinks...

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Island
2 Academy Ruins

4 Sea Drake
4 Juggernaut
4 Synod Centurion
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Fact or Fiction

SB
4 Smokestack
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Caltrops
4 Defense Grid

I still am yet to find the perfect creature configuration, perfect draw engine, equipment (or lack of it), lock pieces, etc. So far, this is what I've come up with.

[MasterBlaster]

@Kicks_422

Why are you using Fact or Fiction over Thirst for Knowledge in such an artifact heavy deck?

Also, have you tested Trinket Mage in your deck?

[kicks_422]

That's actually a debatable slot over those two cards... I love FoF's digging ability for what I need, though Thirst's 3cc is an issue sometimes... I've been going back and forth with them though, and have generally been more impressed with FoF...

Trinket Mage is useful for searching for Chalice, Mox, Seat, and the SB Crypts... But it's such a wimp... I think a deck focusing on an aggro stax strategy is better off playing huge monsters that beat down.

[laststepdown]

Have you tried Static Orb with Tangle Wire?

[Oberyn89]

if you stay on a monobrown list, why not ESG?

[laststepdown]

I would think Lotus Petal would be a better choice than ESG (EDITor the new red one)on a mono brown list, as it allows more permanents on your board to sacrifice or tap, or insurance in case you're running Synod Centurion.

[Bryant Cook]

Because ESG doesn't effect Trinisphere and Lotus Petal does.

[PaPaSmurf]

Ok so i have to say after studying this thread for about a week i grew to love this deck and placed third with it yesterday at a local event. The deck ran great with the exception of a single land screw that cost me game one in match one and eventually the match. I tried to stay as close as i could to the original mono brown list because my metagame doesn't see a lot of mass artifact hate like shattering spree or shatter storm. So heres the list.

Lands - 24
-----------
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Creature Base - 17
------------------
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
4 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Arcbound Ravager
2 Masticore

Equipment - 4
--------------
4 Umezawa's Jitte

Other Artifacts - 15
-------------------
3 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

60 Cards Main

Sideboard - 15
--------------
4 Defense Grid
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Uba Mask
4 Sphere of Resistance

Masticore - i thought this guy was really just to good to not put in especially with at least one goblin deck being ran at the last 4 tournaments i have been too i was really just expecting to hit one

Umezawa's Jitte - Same as Masticore as far as goblins go. also blows up other jittes and helps with randomness. i originally ran SoFI in this slot, the draw was nice but it just wasn't enough against goblins and Red Death. also the 2 damage was nice but killing one goblin a turn just wasn't enough when they were dropping two more.

Arcbound Ravager - this card in my opinion is the weak link in the deck but i just cant find a better option without splashing a color. most of the time he was only swinging for one i guess if i had ran into a little more artifact hate he would have come online a bit more but i didnt see a single disenchant or naturalize the entire tournament.

Tormod's Crypt - for the thresh match up, it was originally 3 Winter Orbs and a Uba Mask but a friend right before the convinced me to play these. i never ended up using them so im not sure how they would fair or whether to side them in against iggy pop or not even tho i have chalice MD.

ill edit in the tournament report in about in hour, going out to eat as a family and i don't want to lose what i have typed to a power outage.

Edit:ill add the report tomorrow. I had it all typed up and accidentally hit the back button on my mouse and lost it all. I have school tommorow and need to go to bed. Sorry =/

[kicks_422]

You might want try out Synod Centurions over Ravagers, and have a split of SoFI and Jitte. Less Jitte's also allow you to drop a Chalice for 2 if it's needed.

[burkey_boy]

Here is my build... I find the real problem with 5/3 is that is is good, but i never seem to consistently get good explosive draws... not enough land, wrong ones.
although, when i get a good draw, it goes really really really well

Creatures
4 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Razormane Masticore
4 Su-Chi
4 Synod Centurion

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Quicksand
4 Wasteland

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been playing Stax alot lately (angel Stax) and Ive come to realize how hard it is for people to deal with CotV@1 followed by Exalted Angel turn two or three. That makes me wanna play more fat guys to end the game quickly. Some of you are playing Tangle Wire, some arent, I dropped it from Angel Stax for Armageddon. Ill never switch back. Dropping 1-2 fatties and resolving a geddon is a classic winning strategy. Whats the right number of creatures to run? If you play too little disruption you just have a bunch of big dorks. Is it worth playing white for Flagstones, Exalted, and Geddon?

[Tao]

Burkey boy, how about JUGGERNAUT in your deck?

[laststepdown]

Yeah, Su Chi just doesn't hold a candle to a card with it's own catch phrase.

[Windux]

Su-Chi without Manlands to activate = Bad.

8 Saclands = bad.
Cut Quicksand for Mishras Factory.
At all, I played 7 Manlands (4 Factorys, 3 Nexus) like you can see in this thread.

[aTn]

With 24 lands and no shuffle effects, don't you think the deck will be a bit inconsistent. This situation is comparable to the early days of aggro workshop in Vintage where there were no shuffle effects in the deck and about 25-26 mana sources; the deck was explosive when it worked, but sometimes you'd get crappy draws for endless number of turns. I know, this is not Vintage, but still, odds are odds.

[burkey_boy]

i used to play with the naught... and i hated it...

it either got bolted, or easily killed.

plus a lot of the time it had to attack adn just walked into death.

with the 4/4 build i feel it is a lot more consistent.

i was thinking of cutting the quicksands... but they are there for some recursion with the crucible adn for lackeys...

with the sands... you can hit a attack soft lock, where people wont attack when their creatures just die.

any word on making it more consistent??? or just a quicksad/ nexus shuffle... as that really wont fix anyuthing

[noobslayer]

I've taken a recent liking to this deck. While I love the mono brown build, I want to try and generate some discussion on the splashes, and which in particular offers the most to this deck. Green is obviously horrendous, and after some research, Red appears to be underwhelming, really only offering two cards (Flametongue Kavu and Pyrostatic Pillar).

White Splash: This one was previously discussed, it seems, more than the others. Cards it offers:
Exalted Angel
Jotun Grunt
Armageddon/Ravages of War
Hanna's Custody
Suppression Field
Razor Golem
Flagstones of Trokair

Exalted Angel needs no real discussion. Jotun Grunt was discussed sometime back, but I quickly discarded the idea as simply a metagame call. You really aren't fueling your own yard enough to support him in your non-gro and non-combo matches.

Armageddon effects are rather powerful in this deck, as you can quickly recover between some combination or Crucible and Mox Diamond. Hell, you don't even really need either, as you likely already have a threat on board who can go to town, while the opponent has now very limited resources to work with. Along with this card you can run a Flagstones or two in place of basic plains, which help you get on top of the ball quickly post 'geddon.

Hanna's Custody is a popular sideboard choice, so I don't think it needs to be talked about in great detail. This however, brings me to Supression Field. Short of equipment and our mana denial strategy (waste/port), we aren't getting hit too much by it. Turn one this can foil fetch lands for a fair bit, so maybe it's enough compensation for affecting our mana denial package. Maybe it's not.

Razor Golem. Ok. This one is way out there. I haven't gotten to test him, but he seems to have some merit. Even with no plains on the board, a 3/4 vigilance with the potential to be equipped for 6 seems ok (We don't have too much trouble generating 6 mana, usually by turn 4 at the latest on average). With any number of plains in play it just starts to get ridiculous. He obviously wouldn't be run more than a 3-of at best though.

Black Splash: This one was discussed lightly I believe. Cards it offers:
Phyrexian Negator
Phyrexian Scuta
Nethervoid
The Abyss
Engineered Plague
Leyline of the Void
Persecute

Negator and Scuta likely fill the same in the deck, however, I think most people would agree Negator is better here, and it comes down for a mana cheaper, no life cost, and has the added bonus of trample.

Nethervoid and the Abyss occupy the same slot in the deck. One could foil control and combo based strategies, while the other can greatly augment our advantage over creature based strategies. They have the drawback of being expensive and hard to acquire.

Engineered Plague. I'm not sure how necessary this card would be in the sideboard. Granted it's good, but as it stands the deck has a good match-up on goblins.

Leyline of the Void is a nice foil to graveyard based decks. It can come down before the game effectively starts, and can still be manageably cast.

Persecute. When black was discussed, I think this only got a small bit of talk. For some reason this option makes black a lot more appealing to me. It's good on combo of most sorts, and hell, on a stretch can hit goblins kind of hard.

Blue also seems rather enticing, allowing for a pseudo-fairie stompy variant.
Sea Drake
Serendib Efreet
Trinket Mage
Fact or Fiction
Thirst for Knowledge
Academy Ruins
Mana Maze

Sea Drake and Serendib bot are strong flying beaters. Drake has the advantage of in some situations have no disadvantage (ie, first turn mox and 2-mana land causes the CITP trigger to fizzle). It's got a good power, the only thing is its toughness makes it easier to deal with that its counterpart. Efreet can chump block threshed mongeese, however, it has poor disynergy with ancient tomb, although I'm not sure how potent that drawback can be.

Trinket mage is a random suggestion, but could be looked at twice. It can grab chalice, mox, potentially artifact lands, crypts, and needles.

Fact or Fiction and Thirst for Knowledge are both the strongest draw cards that any of the splashes have to offer. I think it can come down to preference here, as I don't think either was tested very extensively (correct me if I'm wrong). Thirst for one less digs three deep, and nets you 1-2 new cards. Fact or Fiction digs five deep and can net you between 1 and 4 new cards.

Academy Ruins. Even if it's terrible, I'd run it as a one-of, for the same reasons I have to include volrath's stronghold whenever possible. It can sustain you into a strong late game, and makes attrition wars a lot more bearable.

Mana Maze. Wow. Hose combo much? Considering a vast majority of our spells are colorless, this appears to be a one-sided arcane lab, which can come down turn 1.

Personally white and blue seem like the best options to be had, but I'd like other people to chime in, perhaps with experience and suggestions of their own.

[kicks_422]

I actually have a Faerie Stompy-5/3 hybrid that I whip out on MWS every once in a while.. It's very inconsistent (sometimes had too many beaters, sometimes had too many control), but when it works, it works like a charm. The blue cards I use from the list you wrote are Drake, Efreet, Thirst, and Ruins, with Wash Out in the SB.

I'd like to bring back an old debate, especially for the mono-brown build (or is it mono-silver now?).. Smokestack MD. Yes, this is aggro, but I've always found myself in situations where the ground is stalled. Smokestack would start clearing the way while I drop permanent after permanent every turn to feed it. Also, dropping a Smokestack and then beater after beater applies so much pressure that it's not funny.

[noobslayer]

Do you have that list handy? It would give me something hard to work off of. Much appreciated.

[Goblin Snowman]

I'm going to come out and say this, any colored cards should not have more than one color in their CC, it's hard enough to get that sometimes. In my book, this rules out Exalted Angel, dispite that you think it needs no discussion. If I could support WW2, Cataclasm would be insanse in here, stopping Solidarity and Goblins with equal abandon, and with a Trinisphere out can be nuts. Nether Void screws you too much, if you already have a playset of Chalice and Trinisphere, maybe MD, but almost never. Trinket Mage, while fetching Chalice against Combo, seems a bit poor to me. I've never played the net-deck of Faerie Stompy, but having turn two Trinket Mage into turn three Chalice against Solidarity seems like it would be poor to rely on. Why is Looter Il Kor not mentioned, seems that more manipulation would be nice. Mana Maze isn't that much better than Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, plus, we already beat most Combo.

I did try a green build, but since it needed to support GG2 for most of the better creatures (Baloth, Iwamori the Open Fist, Mungha Wurm, etc), it became quite a different deck. The only easily castable things I see are Loaming Shamen and Call of the Herd. And yes, I did do just to play Might of Oaks.

[burkey_boy]

The only change i have been testing is taking out the 4 phyrexian war beast and putting in 4 Serendib Efreet in their place.

9 times out of 10 you have the right mana (8 sources, 4 seat of synod (or island) and 4 mox diamond)

It is good because the 1 challenge i have had with 5/3 is that if they have flyers, you lose.

Out.

[Nick21]

I've been testing a version running a red splash, and it's been surprisingly solid. I run maindeck Pyroclasms to help the Goblins matchup as well as FTK, and have Pyrostatic Pillar in the sideboard to help with combo. The build needs much more tuning, but I think the idea may have some promise.

[Happy Gilmore]

Powder Keg in the board has been showing a startling amount of potential. It deals with a horde of tokens, killes moxen/LED/Petal/artifact lands against Affinity/ramps up to kill Pithing Needles, Nimble Mongoose, and Werebear. A very versatile card and should probably be a 3-4 of in the board.

Proposed sb for testing:

4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Powder Keg
3x Pithing Needle
3x Crypt
1x Jitte


Strategies:

Solidarity:
+4 Sphere of Resistance
- 3-4 SoFI (depending on version)

Crypts can come in as well for the Jittes if needed.

Thresh:

-2 Jitte
-4 SoFI
-1 Su-chi (or and beater)

+3 Crypt
+4 Powder Keg

Keg blown up at one deals with Goose and Needle. Taking out Equipment seems to be correct considering they bring in Naturalize effects. Crypt solves the problem of their creatures being the same size, providing the same role as the equipment but costing alot less.

Goblins

+3 Needle
+1 Jitte

(not sure what you would take out)

TES

+ 3-4 Powder Keg
+4 Sphere of Resistance

- the equipment (possible keeping in Jitte)
- 2-3 Crucible of Worlds
- 1-2 4cc Beaters

Iggy Pop

+4 Sphere of Resistance
+3 Crypt

- 4 SoFI
- 3 CoW

Red Death

+1 Jitte
-1 Crucible of Worlds

Yep...not sure what else to say about this matchup. You have nothing else to bring in against them. This is one situation where I would not mind having Tangle Wire in the board although I feel Keg is much more useful.

F-stompy

+4 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Jitte
+3 Powder Keg


-4 Trinisphere
-4 Cotv

Angel Stompy


+ 4 Powder Keg
+ 1 Jitte

- 4 Trinisphere
- 1 Crucible of Worlds

Matchups I have not tested at this time

Burn
mono G Stompy
3color Agro (3-deuce, WBG, RGW, RG, etc) "I play 16 1cc spells" and such
Affinity
Survival variants

[The Lotus Eater]

If you can find a way to sub in Cloudpost into your manabase to replace something (rishadan port, crystal vein, or something else maybe?), they would be really strong. At worst, they produce one mana, but in multiples they provide insane amounts of generic mana, but the best part is you don't have to sacrifice any lands to do it. If you want to get four mana out of two crystal veins, you have to sacrifice both of them. That can really put you behind, especially if you don't have a Crucible of Worlds out.

With Cloudpost you become less reliant on CoW and you can still have explosive starts and sometimes even moreso than with the other builds that have posted here.

[noobslayer]

Cloudpost is pretty bad here actually. You're all about tempo and dropping stuff every turn. Cloupost prevents that, especially when you are on the play, which is an even worse starting position for this deck. Also, I personally don't play crystal vein.

[The Lotus Eater]

Bleh, I actually forgot they came into play tapped. That sucks.

I also wish Chromescale Drake didn't have such a retarded casting cost.

[kicks_422]

Here's where my build is at right now:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's factory
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mox Diamond

4 Phyrexian War Beast/Juggernaut
4 Synod Centurion
4 Su-Chi

4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

SB
4 Powder Keg
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Silent Arbiter
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duplicant

Yeah, all 4-ofs MD. Rawr.

I've been testing out Smokestack, and it has been such a back-breaking card in otherwise bad match-ups. Smokestack fills the role of removal for the deck, only imagine that it's sucking up everything from your opponent's side of the board while you keep on playing 4/4's and 5/3's. It has sometimes been useless though, but those have been in match-ups which have been pretty good anyway.

I'm currently running War Beast as a 3cc beater, but its drawback has been too much of a libility in a format filled with removal. I think I'm going to replace it with Juggernaut, whose "drawback" of not being able to block is much easier to work around. If a 3cc artifact creature beater springs up in future sets, Juggernaut will probably get axed for it.

The only things that are lockedin the SB are the Kegs (great suggestion), Spheres, and Crypts. I'm guessing that Arbiter would help against Goblins and Duplicant against... I dunno... Reanimator?

I haven't lost with the deck yet after minimal testing, beating 4-color Thresh, B/W Control, and TES. I'm going to play around with it more to see any weaknesses which could hopefully be plugged. I'm quite worried about the Goblins MU though.

[The Lotus Eater]

What happened to the blue splash you had a page earlier? Why did you go back to a mono-brown version?


I like Serendib Efreet a lot better than Phyrexian Warbeast and you also get some draw, depending on how much you can squeeze in. You also get the option to run Academy Ruins, if you want.

//Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island

//Non-Creature Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds

//Creatures
4 Juggernaut
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Synod Centurion
3 Su-Chi

//Draw
3 Thirst for Knowledge

Sideboard
4 Caltrops
4 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Wash Out/Silent Arbitor

[kicks_422]

I scrapped the blue splash just because I felt that it didn't help the deck as much as I hoped it would. The beaters that blue brings to the table aren't really a big reason to splash blue, the draw isn't really needed when you can create card advantage from other cards (Jitte/Crucible), and Academy Ruins just wasn't working for me.

The 8 man-lands backed up by 4 Crucibles have been really great, especially with the 4 Su-Chi's. The 4 Crystal Veins add to the explosiveness of the deck on the opening play. Splashing a color would take these away from the deck, which I don't see myself seeing doing anytime soon unless it's for a card that takes this into top tier.

[noobslayer]

Well, yes, right now there is no optimal splash build. However, Red and Blue have some very interesting things to offer.

Red gives us a powerful finisher and beater with Covetous Dragon, removal with Fire Imp/Flametongue Kavu, further combo hate with Pyrostatic Pillar, the ability to power out Boils, the best Artifact removal in the format, and if we really need it, Pyroclasm for Goblins and other non-white aggro.

Blue gives us either Serendib or Sea Drake (you would not ever run both here, and both have their pros and cons. I personally would prefer drake as it beats better, and keeps my life total safer). Draw with either Thirst or Fact, recursion with Academy Ruins, and some interesting Sideboard options.

[burkey_boy]

I'm running the blue version, it is a lot better than the mono brown.
i run 4 seat of the synod, 1 island.
4 serebdibb Efreet.

It then plays to roles, either crazy aggro like fairy stompy.
Best start i had was t1 effreet, t2 efreet, t3 razor masticore. It wins well.

Plus my only problem with old 5/3 was the death by flyers.

Plus it makes the sword of fire and ice get through a lot more.

although cov dragon does seem awesome with a red splash... but doesnt come down turn 1.

[noobslayer]

I know. I wish there was some sort of balls to the walls Red beater with a CMC of 2R. As it stands, the Red versions finisher is still a monster. And FtK either pre or post board seems very enticing.

[kicks_422]

The red version I tried had Synod Centurion, Covetous Dragon, and believe it or not, Blade Sliver as beaters, with FTK out of the board.

A problem I had when splashing a color was that by adding color lands in the manabase, you had to remove a bit of explosiveness and threats (manlands) to do so. I just feel that that's too much of a trade-off for a deck that locks down and then goes crazy with beaters.

[Goblin Snowman]

I just ran Minotaur Explorer as a singleton and 4x Drooling Ogre.

Noobslayer - Does Fire Imp count? I could see a red list that rapes Goblins and other aggro coming around.

[noobslayer]

No, Fire Imp to far to easy to deal with. However, I tried running Pyroclasms in the MD and it seemed to work pretty well vs the aggro match-up.

[burkey_boy]

Everytime i play this deck it plays out quite differently.
It can play a very Controlling role. i.e. turn1 chalice, turn2 sphere (or even turn 1 sphere). then play threats.
or anaggro role where you go turn1 effreet, turn2 4/4 or effreet, turn3 Razor Masticore.
Im not sure that the dragon is good enough. at mest it will be coming out turn 3, normally turn 4... hmmm but that is the same as razor masticore.

must think

here is my liust ATM

//Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Crystal Vein
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

//Non-Creature Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

//Creatures
3 Razormane Masticore
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Synod Centurion
4 Su-Chi

[Bane of the Living]

Zoetic Cavern
Land (TS)
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Morph (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for . Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)

This card seems like an auto include. A mana source or a body in a colorless deck. Hes tits with Mox Diamond and Crucible.

Gathan Raiders 3RR
Creature - Human Warrior
Hellbent - Gathan Raiders gets +2/+2 as long as you have no cards in hand
Morph - Discard a card

3/3

This would probably be better in Dragon Stompy but I mention it here because it is a possible 5/5 for 3 colorless. AKA 5/3 material.

Im so excited about this set.

[Honoluluicecaps]

Necro-Time!

Actually I've been testing out my version of this deck, making my deck somewhere between Stax and 5/3. Aggro-Stax is my version of it, and the SB allows me to turn the deck into a traditional stax deck if the occasion calls for it.

Card choices:

Armageddon: The reason for the white splash, and it's been working so well for me it's crazy... first turn War Beast... second turn centurion, third turn armageddon... usually gg.

Tangle Wire: Can be used as a wincon if I have two beaters out.

Grid Monitor: I love this card. A 4/6 beater for 4 is too good.

Razormane: Removal basically... plus it allowed me to take out jitte... I wanted this deck to be more controllish and jitte didn't fit the bill (in this deck).

Beats (15):
4x Phyrexian War Beast
4x Synod Centurion
4x Juggernaut
1x Grid Monitor
2x Razormane Masticore

Non-Creature Artifacts (22):
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Tangle Wire
3x Mox Diamond

Lands (23):
3x Mishra’s Factory
2x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Crystal Vein
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Rishadan Port
3x Plains
3x Wasteland

SB (15):
3x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Magus of the Tabernacle

The deck converts itself into an armageddon stax deck if it needs to, and it's been running incredibly well. What do you guys think?

[technogeek5000]

Looks decent. I think that jitte could take the place of SoFI or atleast make a appearance in that list. Smokestack is good as removal and great with crucible.

Just some suggestions.

Edit: Sorry i didnt see it in your SB

[Filipinho]

Honolulu, you missed the Armageddons in your list.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Necro-Time!

Actually I've been testing out my version of this deck, making my deck somewhere between Stax and 5/3. Aggro-Stax is my version of it, and the SB allows me to turn the deck into a traditional stax deck if the occasion calls for it.

Card choices:

Armageddon: The reason for the white splash, and it's been working so well for me it's crazy... first turn War Beast... second turn centurion, third turn armageddon... usually gg.

Tangle Wire: Can be used as a wincon if I have two beaters out.

Grid Monitor: I love this card. A 4/6 beater for 4 is too good.

Razormane: Removal basically... plus it allowed me to take out jitte... I wanted this deck to be more controllish and jitte didn't fit the bill (in this deck).

Beats (15):
4x Phyrexian War Beast
4x Synod Centurion
4x Juggernaut
1x Grid Monitor
2x Razormane Masticore

Non-Creature Artifacts (22):
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Tangle Wire
3x Mox Diamond

Lands (23):
3x Mishra’s Factory
2x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Crystal Vein
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Rishadan Port
3x Plains
3x Wasteland

SB (15):
3x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Magus of the Tabernacle

The deck converts itself into an armageddon stax deck if it needs to, and it's been running incredibly well. What do you guys think?
Ok, you need to be running the full assortment of 2-mana lands (12). Cut Ports and 1 Waste for 1x Factory, 2 City of Traitors and 1 Vein.

Tangle Wire is BAD. Seriously, that card is not good in Legacy unless your meta is all Landstill and Combo. It's actually a tempo boost for the following decks:
Survival of any kind
Goblins
Thresh (they'll just tap lands and beat you in the face with Goyf)
Deadguy Ale
Red Death
any deck that can play 2 nonland permanents by turn 3 pretty much.

Therefore, you need to cut wire for 1 Mox Diamond and 2x Razorcore.
The Grid Monitor really needs to be Razorcore as you want outs to Goyf, which is insane against you.

I'd also prefer Jitte to SoFI just because you can drop it turn one of a two mana land, if you have no other plays.

[Filipinho]

Lands (22)
2x Rishadan Port
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Wasteland

Creatures (16)
4x Phyrexian War Beast
4x Synod Centurion
4x Juggernaut
4x Razormane Masticore

Other Spells (22)
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Tangle Wire
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard:
3x Caltrops
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Powder Keg

[Silverdragon]

I have some questions. Concerning the creature base how reliable are Phyrexian Warbeast and Synod Centurion? What about Juggernaut and Masticore (both of them)? How often do situations come up where their drawback seems to be unbearable?
I'm asking specifically because I myself didn't have a lot of problems discarding cards and attacking with the Juggernaut but there were numerous times the opponent two-for-oned me when I had Warbeast or Centurion and it cost me the game.
Another question unrelated to this problem, is Smokestack really needed? I realize it is the only out you have against cards like Worship or Solitary Confinement but imho these are rare occasions so why maindeck it when your main strategy is beating down and not locking the opponent?
How important is Crucible? I see Crucible + Wasteland and Crucible + Smokestack but I'm not convinced that this is the way to go for a deck that wants to win in the midgame with superior beaters backed up by Chalice and Trinisphere.
One last question, what do you think is the right number of equipments? You have very few creatures and they are already big so except for some Jittes I don't see the need of playing more equipments maindeck. What are your thoughts?

[Whit3 Ghost]

My personal list is the Red Splash which I personally have found to be the best option. It runs 6quake effects for removal and reach and Magus of the Moon.

12- 2 mana guys
4 Factory
4 Diamond
2 Waste
6 Mountain

3 Crucible
4 Chalice
4 Trini

4 Magus of the Moon
4 FTK
4 Juggs
4 Razorcore

6 Quake

Sideboard
3 Boil
3 Goblin Welder
9 Meta Slots

[burkey_boy]

magnus of the moon? in 5/3??? what a silly idea... really... rethink that, how many non-basics do you have???

5/3 is a really good deck... but when it draws dead... it really dies... no matter which build i have...

atm mine is basics with 3 razormane, 4 serendib, -4 war beast, 4 blinkmoth, 3 sword fire/ice, wastlands etc

works a charm with a good draw... without mana accel it is pretty pathetic... really needs all 12 2 manas

[Filipinho]

@Silverdragon:
About Phyrexian War Beast:
Discarding a card isn't much of a problem and sacrificing a land, most times, isn't, since you have a lot of lands that taps for 2 and you have mox. Crucible of Worlds helps smoothing this drawback.
About Synod Centurion:
I almost always have another artifact in play. 3nisphere, Mox, CotV, there are a lot of thing you wanna drop before the creatures. Running 4x Equipment also helps here. Maybe cut one for a Myr Enforcer?
About Juggernaut:
Does he have a drawback? You'll almost always want to attack. The deck's named after him.
About Razormane Masticore:
I consider it better than his old friend Masticore. It'll kill a creature just for the discard, different from Masticore that makes you spend a lot of mana. It has first strike and toughness 5, so you won't need to regenerate it. Also it's a lot better against Threshold. So, I think the 1cc extra is worthy.

About Crucible of Worlds:
With Crystal Vein, City of Traitors, Wasteland, Mox Diamond and Phyrexian War Beast, I think it's necessary. You find use for it. edit: You can also discard lands with Razormane Masticore, or Phyrexian War Beast.

About Smokestack:
I agree with you. Dropped it for Tangle Wire.

About the 4x Equipment:
With 16x creatures I don't think it's too much. It's true your creatures are big, but they help a lot against aggro. Both equipments can deal with creatures, and do a lot more. So I think 4 is the ideal number.

[emidln]

magnus of the moon? in 5/3??? what a silly idea... really... rethink that, how many non-basics do you have???

With posts like this, I have to wonder whether or not you've ever played with 5/3. First off, what colors does that list need? The answer is red. What color does Magus make your non-basics produce? The answer is red. Now, the last thing to consider would be is Magus more detrimental to your opponent than to you?

Pros:
Hoses many enemy decks not playing red, and even some playing red
Beats for 2
Turns off Ancient Tomb
Makes City of Traitors stay around

Cons:
Turns off your wasteland (not necessary if you have Magus out anyway)
Acceleration tricks with City of Traitors and Crystal Vein combined with Crucible are turned off

If you look at the list of decks that really never want to see Magus of the Moon, you'll notice some big ones:


UGW Threshold
Deadguy Ale
UWB Fish
Landstill, of any variety that isn't red splash
Aluren
Survival playing few basics (which is most of them these days, and the quake effects can mop up their green mana producing creatures)
Iggy Pop (it's much more difficult to win with red mana, lotus petals and 1-4 basics somewhere in your deck than a deck full of fetches, brainstorms, and duals)
Solidarity (Mountains don't help it find Islands)

Even UGR Threshold would need to find some sort of burn, burn that could already be nullified by Chalice @ 1.