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DNSolver
07-10-2016, 11:41 AM
"Avacyn emerged from the broken Helvault, but her freedom came at a price—him."
—Thalia, Knight-Cathar

http://www.thebagofloot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Griselbrand-Grand-Prix-2015-promo-Artwork.jpg

If any of the following situations seem like the best way to win a game of magic, read on:
-Casting a lethal Tendrils of Agony with 3 cards left in deck on turn 1
-Your opponent sitting with Leyline of the Void in play and saying “but I thought you were Reanimator…” as they stare at the ritualed-out Sire of Insanity
-Casting Stronghold Gambit
-Deathrite Shaman waiting to overcome summoning sickness while staring at a Reanimated Griselbrand


Why BR Reanimator over UB Reanimator?

Besides price differential, there are other reasons to pick Badlands over Underground Sea. This deck has different matchups across the board, some of which are very appealing. Miracles decks in general can struggle to beat this deck unless they can assemble a quick Counterbalance with a Force of Will or unless they have Surgical Extraction in their sideboard. Nonblue decks need to pack lots of hate cards that come down on turn 1 in order to have a chance against this deck - there's no guarantee that a turn 2 [/CARDS]Rest in Peace[/CARDS] will cut it. While being able to counter hate cards is great, and is one of the appealing features of blue cards, having more action in the deck is better in some matchups. This deck arguably has the best topdeck potential in the format.


Playing Reanimator:

The goal of this deck is to use either Reanimate, Exhume, or Animate Dead to return a giant, game-ending creature such as Griselbrand into play. If it’s Griselbrand himself, usually games will end on that turn or the next turn due to the power level of this deck when allowed to draw 7, 14, or 21 cards.

Opening hands will either be protected turn 1s, unprotected turn 1s, protected turn 2s, unprotected turn 2s, or worse. A hand that doesn’t threaten to have a creature enter play in the first two turns is usually a mulligan, unless you have already mulliganed, in which case you can use your best judgment, or consult a handy-dandy Hypergeometric Distribution to determine the likelihood of drawing a certain card in the first few available drawsteps. Here are some common numbers that are good to know when making mulligan decisions. The math here is calculated assuming 10 fatties (4 Griselbrand 6 others), 12 Reanimation Spells (4 Reanimate 4 Exhume 4 Animate Dead), and 22 mana sources (14 lands, 4 Lotus Petal, and 4 Dark Ritual). Be aware that the math can vary here depending on whether a fetchland is used:

7 card hand, with Faithless Looting, looking for a creature: 34.5%, 47.3% in 3 cards
Looking for a creature or entomb? 46%, 61% in 3 cards

6 card hand, with no land, looking for any land or Lotus Petal: 56% in 2 cards, 71% in 3 cards

6 card hand, looking for a creature or entomb: 45.5% in 2 cards, 60% in 3 cards

Source for DIY calculations: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

Relevant Cards:

Deathrite Shaman – this is a popular turn 1 play from BGx decks. However, unless they know you are on Reanimator, they will likely use it for mana on turn 2 or not leave up available green mana.

Baleful Strix – if you are constrained on life or experience the worst draw 7 ever, this card can be pretty annoying, even though it puts Griselbrand back into the graveyard for re-reanimating. Fortunately, every version of this deck has its own way of beating this card, see below where versions are discussed.

Karakas – this stops Griselbrand’s flavor text, but he still draws a ton of cards for you. Most builds run non-legendary creatures that can get around Karakas.

Scavenging Ooze – this takes a while to come online, but once it hits with green mana available the graveyard is pretty much off-limits. Very few decks run this, typically only Nic Fit, Elves, Maverick, and other fringe green decks. Not typically played by BUG decks.

Chalice of the Void / Thorn of Amethyst – these can shut down some of our reanimation or slow us down. Fortunately, our deck isn’t completely based on casting 10 spells in a turn, so Thorn doesn’t hurt us as badly as Storm.

Force of Will / Spell Pierce / Daze – these very rarely are a problem when on their own because the deck is so redundant, likely containing more reanimation spells than they have counterspells. When they have time, though, they can dig for more of these and continue to deny Griselbrand.

Swords to Plowshares – if the creature you reanimate is Griselbrand, you can draw plenty of cards in response. However, if your creature is not Griselbrand, then this will be pretty effective. Exiling hurts when it hits a one-of Entomb target because you can’t get it back.

Sensei’s Divining Top / Counterbalance “lock” – This two-card annoyance is beatable with 2 drops. We have 8 2-drop Reanimation spells or we can look into hardcasting a creature. These are usually problems only later in the game, but sometimes the opponent can set this up on turn 2-3 and be fast enough if they also have a way of stopping us early.

Irrelevant Cards:

Jace, the Mind Sculptor – this usually costs too much mana to interact with our creatures. It can lock us out through his +2 ability, but better players will likely brainstorm with him a couple times to accumulate enough interactive spells to beat us however they like.

Liliana of the Veil – this is usually pretty bad against us. We like to discard cards from our hand and we’re usually fine if our creatures end up in the graveyard again.

Maze of Ith – in most cases this will do absolutely nothing. It doesn’t stop Griselbrand’s draw 7 so it only works on the flying lifelink 7/7 part – the flavor text. Reanimating an Archetype of Endurance or Tidespout Tyrant from the draw 7s blanks this card.

Sideboard Cards you will encounter:

Leyline of the Void – turn 0 effect stops turn 1. Not a lot of decks run these in the sideboard, so some versions choose not to run any way to deal with these, in which case your graveyard is off-limits. Note that this does not affect your opponent’s graveyard.

Containment Priest – turn 2 instant speed effect. Can be beaten with discard, removal, or a fast turn 1 or turn 2 on the play. Some versions run Keranos, God of Storms specifically to beat this.

Rest in Peace – same as above, but also beatable with alternate ways to sneak in creatures

Tormod’s Crypt / Nihil Spellbomb / Grafdigger’s Cage – online turn 1 and annoying, although the first two are easier to beat than Cage.

Relic of Progenitus – This is the turn 1 artifact hate that is too slow sometimes. It costs one mana to activate, so typically this will do nothing if you have a fast enough hand.

Null Rod – opponents bring this in sometimes if they have no better cards. It can slow us down a turn or prevent us from completely comboing out with Griselbrand, but it isn’t very effective.

Fringe Cards / Situations:

Reanimator mirror – this is a fun one. Everything you try to do to set up: it helps your opponent too. Reanimate and Animate Dead can target creatures in opponents’ graveyards. Exhume returns fatties for both players more often than not, and the threat of Entomb in response to Exhume probably spells disaster. See the matchups section for more details.

Exhume awkwardness – sometimes you have to discard a card from your opponent’s hand and it comes back to haunt you – literally. Sometimes this can be avoided, so be careful discarding big threats when you are planning on casting Exhume whenever possible.

Glacial Chasm – this only stops damage, not Tendrils of Agony.

Reanimating opponent’s creatures – I always wanted one of these!

If opponent plays a one-shot grave hate card such as Nihil Spellbomb, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, Bog, etc. :

1) Put a creature in the graveyard (ideally good enough but not necessarily the "optimal" card)
2) Cast Exhume. Opponent will use their card if they are scared of your creature.
3) Cast Entomb with the Exhume still on the stack and put the optimal creature in your graveyard.
4) Let Exhume resolve.
5) Profit!

This trick also works against a single Deathrite Shaman, assuming that you can pull off all 5 steps in quick enough succession that Deathrite can't exile both creatures.

General Tips and Tricks:

Exhume – this does not target, so it can get around Surgical Extraction or Deathrite Shaman. See above section.

Animate Dead – unfortunately, this can be Stifle ‘d or stopped with Abrupt Decay if your opponent knows what they’re doing.

Griselbrand's draw 7 ability can be targeted with Stifle.

After winning game 1, you can mulligan pretty aggressively looking for a powerful hand or a disruptive/interactive hand in G2 when on the draw. On the draw, discard spells are not as powerful as removal such as Abrupt Decay (assuming that the hate you are fearing can be hit by Decay and can come down on turn 1). Your opponents, once they know that you are on turbo-combo, will likely mulligan aggressively for Force of Will or turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, Karakas, or one-mana artifact graveyard hate. However, if you lose G1, you are in trouble because you need to win 2 games post-sideboard. You likely still need to bring in Abrupt Decay or other answers to permanent-based hate because it will be in their deck for G2.

Sequence cards carefully to play around potential countermagic on a key combo piece (usually Entomb). NOTE: most oppontents will not counter a discard spell targeting yourself, a Faithless Looting, or a main-phase Entomb with Force of Will. If they have Daze, Spell Pierce, or Flusterstorm, they are likely to use them whenever they have an opportunity. Remember that you can respond to single soft counters with Dark Ritual to pay the extra cost.

When falling behind or flooded on mana, casting an extra Entomb to get a Faithless Looting into your graveyard is a fine play. You can even spend a Dark Ritual to do this all in one turn, and this composes a powerful turn 2 play when digging for Reanimation spells. Entomb can also put any card in your graveyard, so you can use it to thin your deck of lands if you have few available draw steps remaining in the game.

It is sometimes correct to hold extra lands and fast mana to pitch to Faithless Looting in case you draw one.

You can run a 1-of Unburial Rites and a Scrubland to be able to cast Entomb for a reanimation spell when flooded on mana - as long as you can produce white by fetching Scrubland or cracking a Lotus Petal.

Scrying – remember to scry after mulligans. The scry is very powerful in this deck, as it really helps some of our percentages to find crucial cards (see above for percentages). Scrying lets us keep no-land hands. That’s how dumb this deck is.

Winning with Griselbrand:

Tidespout Tyrant lock – Once you have a grip full of cards, casting enough spells to bounce all their permanents each turn isn’t very difficult.
Iona, Shield of Emeria / Archetype of Endurance lock – Very few cards can deal with this. Against Miracles, Iona on White and Archetype of Endurance out is a lock unless they can kill you with damage or deck you somehow. Against BUG decks, Iona on black and Archetype is a lock. Iona locks out the crucial color of board wipe and Archetype protects from Karakas, bounce effects such as Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and other spot removal.
Sire of Insanity / Griselbrand “lock” – Once Griselbrand makes a Sire of Insanity to accompany him, you should be able to win. Be aware that you will discard your newly drawn cards.
Children of Korlis -> Tendrils of Agony – Entombing and Reanimating Children of Korlis allows you to keep drawing with Griselbrand, until you can have pretty much your entire deck in your hand. Between draw 7s, plenty of fast mana, and Faithless Lootings, you should be able to draw the Tendrils >99% of the time. If it’s the bottom card of your deck and/or the mana is drawn awkwardly (ex. Using all 4 petals or 3 Rituals before finding Tendrils) then this might not work. Play it safe if you are getting low on cards in deck. Be aware that you can Entomb any card out of your deck to bring it from 8 cards down to 7 at the cost of one mana.
Unmask / Thoughtseize lines -> If you draw 7 or 14 and you can’t make another threat, then you can use Unmasks and Thoughtseizes to discard all the relevant cards in your opponent’s hand

Winning without Griselbrand

When Griselbrand gets Surgical’d, you hope that you have another powerful threat in your deck such as Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur , Grave Titan, or another threat that shuts down your opponent’s deck, such as Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Iona, Shield of Emeria.

Card Choices:

4 Reanimate 4 Exhume 4 Animate Dead – don’t leave home without these. If you are shaving 1-2 to make room for something, make it the Animate Deads because they are the easiest to interact with.

4 Entomb – the most powerful card in the deck, besides freaking Griselbrand, hands down.

4 Faithless Looting – helps smooth out draws in our colors, discards fatties, draws towards sideboard cards, and has flashback. Flashback is very relevant in our deck with enough fast mana to flash it back turn 2 and use the cards we draw.

4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lotus Petal – fast mana is how we present game-winning threats on turn 1 or 2.

6-8 fetchlands, 2-4 Badlands, 1-2 Swamp, 0-1 Mountain 0-1 Bayou/Scrubland – depending how heavy you are on red, you can make room for more Badlands or even a basic Mountain. If you are splashing a color, you probably only need 1 splash dual. In a version with 4 Faithless Looting and a green-based sideboard, you would want 8 fetches, 2 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 Bayou at the very least. 14-land versions would run another Badlands or fetchland. The second swamp isn’t necessary but nice to have against Delver decks so that you can keep ramming 2 mana reanimation spells into counterspells and Wastelands. You want only 13-15 lands total.

A note about Shocklands: you definitely want your Badlands to be pain-free. If you are trying out a splash color, you can get away with a Shockland in that slot because you are only going to want to fetch it when you need it. You need your Griselbrand activations every time, so conserving life is a top priority – don’t skimp on these and get your Badlands heavily played if you have to.

Creature choices:

You are going to want 8-10 reanimation targets in this deck.

4 Griselbrand – the first reanimation target is this guy 95% of the time. The only time you can make an argument to get someone else is if one or more of the following is true:



Griselbrand is Pithing Needle’d / Phyrexian Revoker’d
Karakas is in play and you know that the coast is clear for another creature
At a very low life total and Elesh Norn / Iona is required immediately
Other 5% circumstance that is unpredictable

0-4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Auger – A great Griselbrand impression if Mr. Griz gets Surgical’d. The draw 7 is probably powerful enough in this deck to make another creature to help out his flimsy 5/4 body. Be aware that Swords to Plowshares and Karakas stop this guy in his tracks very easily.

0-4 Sire of Insanity – Depending on how much you like this guy, you can run up to 4. He’s like a non-legendary Jin-Gitaxias that destroys hands instead of refilling yours. Your opponent still topdecks every turn, so this is not great against decks that could potentially deal with him. Examples of good situations: turn 1 against anything, turn 1-3 against Storm / Show and Tell. Bad situations: Tundra and top already in play (searching for Swords to Plowshares or Terminus). 4 turns isn’t a very fast clock and when he’s dealt with you might not have an immediate follow-up, giving your opponent time to rebuild.

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria – Shuts down a key color, which beats a number of decks. Vulnerable to Karakas.

0-1 Archetype of Endurance – Shuts down targeted removal and Karakas.

0-1 Tidespout Tyrant – bounces lots of permanents, including opposing big creatures (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand, etc.)

0-3 Grave Titan – creates a board presence big enough to get around Liliana of the Veil, and leaves behind tokens even if he dies immediately. Combat math with Grave Titan? The answer is: “always attack.” Remember he has Deathtouch as flavor text.

0 or 4 Chancellor of the Annex - reveal this from your opening hand to steal back the play when you're on the draw. Delays 1 mana artifact and Deathrite Shaman by a turn unless they have fast mana or Gitaxian Probe to interrupt the trigger. This is also not the worst when Reanimated against decks with Swords to Plowshares, and is actually almost a complete lock against Storm. Either run 0 or run 4. Sometimes these are in the sideboard instead of the maindeck and replace Sire of Insanity on the draw.

Fast mana choices

Chrome Mox – a good replacement for the 15th and/or 14th land if you want a bit more speed. If you are running the Children of Korlis combo version, you want as many initial mana sources as you can squeeze in so that your draw 7s find more mana.

Simian Spirit Guide – more red-intensive versions can make good use of these monkeys. Be aware when using these that a hand of Faithless Looting, Spirit Guide x2, Exhume, Fetchland, Griselbrand can still turn 1 if you are completely all-in. Pitch a spirit guide to cast Looting, then use the Fetchland and other Spirit Guide to cast the Exhume. The more conservative line would be to fetch Badlands to cast the Looting, but then you don’t have guaranteed black mana for the Exhume.

Mox Diamond – we run too few lands for this to be as powerful as Chrome Mox most of the time.

Different Versions with Sample Decklists and Sideboards:

Faithless Reanimator / “Dindon Rea” – more fast mana in the maindeck allows access to a more mana-intensive but sneaky sideboard option – Sneak Attack.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7770&d=244739&f=LE

Burning Wish Sideboard – Burning Wish grants flexibility so that you always have the right anti-hate, or a reanimation spell / discard spell if you need one.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/426193#online

Green Sideboard – powerful green sideboard options include Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/441416#online

White Sideboard – Wear/Tear answers Leyline of the Void, artifact based hate, but not creatures. White also gives access to Silence.

Blue Sideboard - Show and Tell package out of the sideboard evades graveyard hate. Sol lands allow a rapid Show and Tell.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/442856#paper
Mono black – Not many good anti-hate cards other than Ratchet Bomb and plenty of discard spells.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99543

Other Sideboard slots:

Stronghold Gambit – To explain how this card works, follow this wording closely: Each player reveals a card from their hand. The creature card(s) with the lowest CMC get put into play. Why would we play this when we are toting big daddy Griselbrand at 4BBBB? Well, if the opponent has no creatures in their hand / deck, we get a 2 mana Griselbrand! This gets boarded in against Storm, Lands, Show and Tell, and other combo decks that run few to no creatures. You could also bring it in against Miracles, but some versions run a plethora of Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, and even Venser, Shaper Savant to stop this. However, this is easily the most fun card to resolve in the deck.

Pithing Needle – Stops Karakas, but we have some creatures that do that for us. Something to consider, but likely there are few cards that you want to cut when sideboarding anyway.

Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction / Leyline of the Void – Other sideboard options are usually pretty terrible because we aren’t ever boarding in more than 4-5 cards, because we don’t want to dilute our deck. With the rest of our sideboard space, there is no problem with trying to win the mirror or pseudo-mirror against UB Reanimator or Dredge.

Lightning Bolt – For pesky Delver decks. Some players have opted to change into a more controlling role against Delver decks, boarding in 4 Bolt 4 Abrupt Decay and focusing on killing threats until a definite combo is available.

Young Pyromancer / Monastery Mentor – Without cantrips, these are less than ideal and a bit slow. Young Pyromancer is easily on-color but his tokens still get eaten by Deathrite Shaman. Monastery Mentor is a bit slow and mana-intensive but can quickly generate a large board presence. The problem with both of these is that they take up a lot of sideboard space and the matchups where you want these or don’t are still ill-defined. More testing is needed with Mentor.

Goblin Rabblemaster – A possible sideboard option, yet to be tested as far as I know.

Tasigur, the Golden Fang / Gurmag Angler / Tombstalker – delve creatures are a sideboard option but struggle against Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace, as well as Swords to Plowshares if they resolve.

Ingot Chewer - A clever answer to Chalice of the Void and its friends.

Sideboard Entomb targets:

If you can make room in your sideboard, these are some options that will handle opponents’ threats handily. Keep in mind – there has to be a reason that you would want these. If you are planning on getting one of these INSTEAD of getting Griselbrand, they have to be pretty good.

Keranos, God of Storms – gets around Containment Priest. A good sideboard Entomb target. Run 0-1

Blazing Archon – stops some aggressive decks, namely Eldrazi. In some situations, this is a better target than Griselbrand. Run 0-1

Archetype of Endurance – if not maindeck, this is crucial for stopping Karakas. Run 1 if not maindeck.

Ashen Rider – exiles permanents, but Tidespout Tyrant is probably better.

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite – handles most creature-based threats in the format but the primary gameplan of Griselbrand is probably better against creature-based threats due to the lifelink.

Matchups:

Miracles – Counterbalance / top is good against us if our hand is a bit slow. Some versions have Karakas which makes it harder. There are a lot of different versions of Miracles but expect either Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction out of their sideboard.

Shardless BUG – A very interesting matchup if neither of us have nut hands. They have ways of dealing with our creatures, but not necessarily effectively. They can have artifact hate, Deathrite, Force of Will, Surgical Extraction, and/or Meddling Mage. The versions with the Meddling Mage sideboard are better for us, because Mage costs 2 and doesn’t shut us down completely.

Grixis Delver – a hard matchup due to the fast clock coupled with plenty of free countermagic, plus Deathrite Shaman to make comboing off harder and Surgical Extraction out of some sideboards.

UR Delver – no Deathrite Shamans make the matchup a little easier, but they can actually kill a Griselbrand with the right burn spells.

Eldrazi – depending on how disgusting their sideboard is, this matchup could be very good or very bad. Typically we only lose G1 if they have a Chalice of the Void on turn 1. Post board, I have faced Leyline, Faerie Macabre, Thorn of Amethyst, and a mix of all 3. One of my paper opponents had 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Thorn of Amethyst, the 3rd Karakas, and a Pithing Needle in their sideboard. Their sideboard options are so bad against their other bad matchups that they overboard for the one they can beat: us.

Storm – we are both combo decks with discard, but this deck doesn’t need a critical amount of spells or time to set up. Typically we win almost all the games we’re on the play and most on the draw, just because this deck is faster than storm. A relatively easy matchup made easier with Stronghold Gambit. Sometimes Storm opponents can have Surgical/Extirpate or Flusterstorm.

Lands – a very interesting matchup. Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Karakas, and (potentially) The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale can all interfere with our creatures while Wastelands and Rishadan Ports interfere with our mana. Stronghold Gambit is very strong in this matchup and makes it far less tense to play. Their best interaction by far is Crop Rotation at instant speed, finding Bojuka Bog to stop our graveyard or one of the above lands to stop creatures in play. Postboard they can also have Sphere of Resistance / Thorn of Amethyst / Chalice of the Void effects.

Death and Taxes – Although typical UB Reanimator struggles against this deck, we are usually so fast that a lot of their good cards are too slow. Karakas can hurt, and Rest in Peace / Containment Priest out of the sideboard can cause problems for slow hands. Also watch out for Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Phyrexian Revoker, and Mother of Runes + flyer to stop Griselbrand.

SneakShow/OmniShow/OmniTell – a tense matchup to play. We are happy with them casting Show and Tell because we can put in Griselbrand or Animate Dead -> Griselbrand. Usually our draw 7s are more powerful. Stronghold Gambit helps this matchup because they have a variety of annoying cards against us such as Grafdigger’s Cage or Cunning Wish -> Surgical Extraction in addition to plenty of countermagic and draw spells to find the previous.

Reanimator mirror – Very tense. Exhume is the worst card from both decks, and either player can cast Entomb in response to it to completely change the effect. Reanimate and Animate Dead can target creatures in the opponent’s graveyards. Entomb and Faithless Looting are both ideally resolved before a guaranteed reanimation spell. Discard spells excel here to inform you on the opponent’s hand composition and what plays are safe or deadly. Best reanimation target G1 is Iona on black, assuming your opponent doesn’t have board presence yet. Remember basic combat math (not what you signed up for I guess): a 7/7 flyer doesn’t race a 7/7 flying lifelink, and a 6/7 flyer (animate dead) doesn’t beat a 7/7 flyer.

Burn – Griselbrand’s best mode is flavor text – 7/7 flying lifelink. Don’t draw cards unless you have to. If given the option, Iona on Red should lock it up. Sideboard cards include Tormod’s Crypt, Surgical Extraction, or Faerie Macabre, though usually only one of the above in any given list. Burn players have to choose what kind of combo hate they run, so it’s kind of a guessing game.

BUG Delver – Deathrite plus plenty of discard spells after board make this a hard matchup on the draw but a decent matchup on the play. Depends on the sideboard, but not the most popular Delver deck nowadays.

RUG Delver – Notable to this deck specifically is the inclusion of Stifle. Don’t activate Griselbrand into any blue mana up, but activating Griselbrand against Delver decks is not usually correct anyway because he is a giant lifelinker that’s hard to race.

Esper Deathblade – Stoneblade decks can run any amount of hate cards for whatever matchups they like, because they are playing three or four colors. Deathblade is the only deck bold enough to run Rest in Peace alongside Deathrite Shaman, and can sometimes have Containment Priest or discard spells or Surgical Extraction.

Jund – Deathrite Shaman and discard spells for interaction G1. Sideboard varies a lot: they can have Leyline of the Void or one-mana artifact hate.

Dredge – They should have no interaction G1, so as fast as possible is great. Discard spells are usually pretty effective against mana dredge, taking Careful Study or Breakthrough. After sideboarding, Dredge usually brings in 4 Leylines or 4 Faerie Macabres.

Elves – Deathrite Shaman is their turn 1 interaction, but if they don’t have it turn 1, they’re probably heading for a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze. Post-board, they can have discard spells, possibly Surgical Extraction / Leyline of the Void.

Belcher – unless they have a turn 1 Goblin Charbelcher in two games, you should easily win this matchup. Discard spells excel here. Preferred target should be Griselbrand to draw cards and cast discard spells. Iona on Red or Green can be beaten by mana spells of the opposite color, but can probably be good enough in most cases. Elesh Norn can kill Goblins or Griselbrand can race them pretty effectively. Tidespout Tyrant can bounce Belcher if it makes it on the field and doesn’t activate.

Merfolk – This is a very interesting matchup because of Phantasmal Image. Usually it costs too much mana to matter because we are focused on comboing as fast as possible, but sometimes drawing cards with Griselbrand could kill us on the swingback if we miss on the draw 7. Use your best judgment when forced into a racing situation, and watch out for Mutavault activations. Merfolk decks are also known to run Chalice of the Void and Daze in addition to Force of Will, and can also have Grafdigger’s Cage in sideboard games.

DNSolver
07-10-2016, 11:41 AM
Stay tuned to @Griselbrand_ for screenshots and threatening Griselbrand remarks.

Reserved for future updates.

Rampart
07-10-2016, 08:07 PM
Reserved for future updates.

WOW, this is awesome. Thanks for doing this.

Is there any reason for not including Chancellor of the Annex in the creature section

DNSolver
07-10-2016, 09:24 PM
Forgot about Chancellor of the hopelessness. Adding now.

Rocco111
07-11-2016, 04:03 AM
Great job putting this together! :)

Weapon X
07-11-2016, 08:53 AM
Isn't this just burning reanimate then?

DNSolver
07-12-2016, 09:13 AM
A Burning Wish sideboard plan is only included in some versions of this deck. Most people right now are not running any Burning Wishes, and I haven't seen a version with Lion's Eye Diamonds.

DNSolver
07-13-2016, 11:07 AM
Tournament Report from Tuesday night Legacy, playing this decklist:

4 Griselbrand, 3 Jin-Gitaxias, 1 Grave Titan
1 Children of Korlis, 1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb, 4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate 4 Exhume 4 Shallow Grave
4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal, 4 Dark Ritual, 1 Chrome Mox
2 Swamp, 2 Badlands, 1 Bayou, 8 black fetches

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Reverent Silence
4 Stronghold Gambit
3 Faerie Macabre

My current list super-subscribes to Shallow Grave, so I cut all the creatures that don't play nicely with it (Iona, Tidespout, etc.) to maximize my chances at beating Surgical, Deathrite, and graveyard removal effects.

R1: Abzan Stoneblade
G1: turn 1 on the play.
G2: he mulls to 4, Thoughtseizes me when I kept 2 land, Looting, Grisel, Exhume, Decay, something. I turn 2 him.

R2: Storm
G1: turn 1 on the play.
G2: a strugglefest with discard spells. He has the option of spending his whole hand to discard my Reanimate as my last card in his hand, but is then vulnerable to my great topdecks. He chooses to let me have Reanimate. My single draw 7 is amazing and kills him.

R3: Storm again
G1: turn 1 on the play.
G2: I keep a 7-card turn 1 on the draw but I get Therapied for my Entomb after he mulls to 5. I struggle to assemble things from my Faithless Lootings and get killed on turn 4 or 5.
G3: turn 1 on the play.

R4: Shardless BUG
G1: We both mull to 5 looking for interaction when I'm on the play. I'm willing to mulligan pretty low looking for a good hand if my opponent knows what I'm on, because my opponent is also going to mulligan aggressively if he's good. I keep land, Children, Entomb, Reanimate x2. I Entomb mainphase for Griselbrand. He has USea pass. My first Reanimate gets Forced, but he's now down to 2 cards in hand when I cast my second Reanimate. My draw 7 gets there.
G2: I keep Land x3, Entomb, Reanimate, Decay, Griselbrand? He leads off with Deathrite. I play it safe and land go. He does too. I play my second land and get ready to Decay him on his turn 3 endstep. He responds to it with a Notion Thief using his Deathrite. That's unfortunate. I draw Faithless Looting. I entomb Grave Titan, cast Looting (unfortunately he draws 2 cards, forgot about that part), then Reanimate Grave Titan. Unfortunatley, he finds enough disruption from the draw 2 and his next few turns to stop Grave Titan with 3 Deathrites, the Notion Thief, 2 Goyfs, and a Liliana of the Veil.
G3: I mull to 6 on the play while he keeps 7. I Entomb Griselbrand. He plays Deathrite off of USea. I try for a Reanimate but it gets Forced, pitching Jace. He plays his second land (a fetch) and passes. I pass with 2 mana up. He suspects Shallow Grave (knows that I play it) and just draws for his turn. Unfortunately, he's missing on his third land, so he is forced to crack his fetch to try to cast a Baleful Strix. In response I make Griselbrand. He finds his third land, Brainstorms, and passes. I draw 7 on endstep and consider my options. If I draw another 7 I can't use Children of Korlis to good effect on my turn, because I lost all my life to Griselbrand on his endstep. I decide that my chances are probably better with a second set of 7, so I do that. I carefully consider my options, playing around Surgical Extraction off of his Brainstorm, finally passing the turn with Griselbrand and Grave Titan in play, petal up, 2x Decays in hand. He plays 2 Goyfs but is looking pretty screwed (although I am at 5 life). I Decay his Strix and attack with Griz, Grave Titan, 2 zombies, and he blocks 2 Zombies, going to 4 (his Goyfs were 5/6s at this point). His draw for turn isn't enough to kill me - he wanted a Maelstrom Pulse to kill my new untapped Zombies and attack for 10 with Goyfs and kill me with Deathrite, but my 2nd Decay would have stopped that.

R5: Burn.
We split for $50 each. We played for fun and I lost game 3 due to mulligans, keeping a 5 card no lander on the play that didn't pan out because he found Tormod's Crypt and I couldn't get around it in time.

Seraphix
07-13-2016, 12:55 PM
Great primer. Needs the original artwork and some Taylor Swift quotes though.

Nocley
07-13-2016, 01:17 PM
Thanks for the primer. I've been watching this as it's been putting up results on MTGO leagues the past few weeks, definitely something exciting to keep in my rotation, the ability to play through so many T1 hate cards is incredible.

On the other hand, when things go wrong, this is just miserable. I played this against burn last week in a weekly event and on the play, he mulled to 5, and I still lost when I kept a hand with land, Dark Rit, Petal, Looting x 3, Exhume, because in all of the looks I was unable to find a creature off the lootings (which given 8 looks over 3 turns is a 93% chance to hit something).

My preferred creature suite seems to be somewhere between 2-3 Sire, 4 Grisel, 4 Chancellor, and possibly Iona.

DNSolver
07-13-2016, 01:32 PM
Updated the primer to include more in the "Tips and Tricks" section. No Taylor Swift jokes yet, although I hear she has a ban list baby, and she'll write Griselbrand's name.

@Nocley 8 looks over 3 turns is ridiculous, and missing on that is why it's not a 100%. The math is with you. Looking at that hand, though, it looks like you could have flashbacked a Looting or two over the next few turns (assuming you got any) to dig even deeper.

Cartesian
07-17-2016, 03:49 AM
Excellent work on this. Nice to see some high quality Legacy content on these boards.

Chatto
07-17-2016, 06:32 AM
Looks like a version of Burning Reanimator, but I believe you when you say this is a different beast all together. Good looking primer! Just one request: either I didn't see one clearly, but could you include a sample deck list in the op?

DNSolver
07-17-2016, 11:03 AM
Decklists are under "Different Versions with Sample Decklists"

Thank you so much for the nice comments!

I just 5-0'd a Legacy Competitive League to qualify for the Magic Online Legacy Festival Championship, but I will likely be busy on that day and unable to play. Matches went like:

R1 - Burn 2-1
R2 - Merfolk 2-1
R3 - UR Delver 2-0
R4 - UR Delver 2-1
R5 - BR Reanimator mirror 2-1

Decklist I used:

4 Griselbrand 3 Jin-Gitaxias 1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Children of Korlis 1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Reanimate 4 Exhume 4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb 4 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize 4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal 4 Dark Ritual 1 Chrome Mox
2 Badlands 1 Bayou 2 Swamp 8 black fetches

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Stronghold Gambit
4 Reverent Silence
1 Archetype of Endurance
4 Faerie Macabre

Richard Arschmann
07-19-2016, 12:55 PM
If I have the cards for the UB version of this, is there really any advantages to playing BR? Which version is better against Miracles?

DNSolver
07-19-2016, 01:01 PM
Easily this version is better against Miracles. Getting under Counterbalance easily is very powerful.

There are plenty of hands in both versions that are extremely hard to beat, example:

Land, fast mana, bin creature effect, reanimate effect, protection.

However, this version has more of those, and that's what you need curently to beat Miracles as well as being able to turn 1 Eldrazi or Delver decks on the play. Unmask is our protection that works against Faerie Macabre as well, at the cost of needing more black cards in the deck.

cris_rj
07-19-2016, 02:48 PM
I'm going to play in a big Brazilian tournament next month and I`m going use B/u reanimator with green splash in sideboard.

After reading this thread, what is the Sideout - sidein plan ? I'm having troubles putting 4 abrupt decay in main deck and reducing the speed of the deck. There is any case where you need to side in 4 abrupt decay and 4 reverent silence ? What I need to side out in these case ? T for helping !

wcm8
07-19-2016, 03:56 PM
Just wanted to thank OP for the fantastic primer -- among the best on this site! Thorough and informative without being needlessly bloated.

I've encountered this deck a few times with online play testing, but have never seen it irl or had the guts to run it myself. Has there been a consensus as to which build is optimal?

DNSolver
07-19-2016, 10:03 PM
Certainly the maindeck is agreed upon at this point. Any person looking to play the deck should definitely obtain:

4 Griselbrand, 6 other combo creatures / cards
12 Reanimation Spells
4 Thoughtseize 4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual 4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb 4 Faithless Looting
8 black fetches, 2 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 B/X splash dual land

I played the Burning Wish sideboard for a few months but since switching to a green sideboard I've been pretty impressed with 4 Abrupt Decay as a catchall answer that you bring in against almost every deck, expecting hate. I choose to be able to beat Leyline post-board so I also have 4 Reverent Silence in my sideboard. I think that you are only bringing in 4 cards at most against almost any deck, so I fill my sideboard with 4 ofs as much as possible.

My current creature suite is 4 Griz, 3 Jin-Gitaxias, 1 flex slot, and then 2 slots for 2 Children of Korlis + Tendrils of Agony. The flex slot started out as Grave Titan, switched to Tidespout Tyrant, but there's a lot of Swords to Plowshares running around. It will likely become Inkwell Leviathan or Archetype of Endurance.

Nocley
07-19-2016, 10:39 PM
Just got a 5-0 League with the 2 Sire 4 Grisel 4 Chancellor 1 Iona creature MD plan, Green SB (3 Decay 2 Reverent Silence) only league I played during the Festival Q's, so I guess I'm playing Sunday now. Also forgot to put in the last 3 Stronghold Gambits after I bought them, so getting that with a 12 card SB felt great too. I like the Green/Gambit plan much more than the Blue Show and Tell plan that's been going around online.

If I get time, I may test Children + Tendrils plan, allows the Griselbrand hands to be so much more powerful it seems. Chancellor seems like the best card and the worst card all at once.

Definitely going to cut the 2 Pithing Needles SB for the 3rd Reverent Silence and something else...maybe the fourth decay, but I was already flooding out enough, but I did play decks that were relatively light on GY Hate. But at the same time, don't know what else I'd throw in that slot. But 2 Reverent Silence is definitely not enough to deal with Leyline of the Void.

Rocco111
07-20-2016, 02:57 AM
Certainly the maindeck is agreed upon at this point. Any person looking to play the deck should definitely obtain:

4 Griselbrand, 6 other combo creatures / cards
12 Reanimation Spells
4 Thoughtseize 4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual 4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb 4 Faithless Looting
8 black fetches, 2 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 B/X splash dual land


Although I agree with most of the ideas been thrown in this thread so far, I must nuance a bit what you are saying when it comes to the 'agreed' MD backbone.
Imho, the discard spells are not must play per say. They are good options but can also be a handicap every now and then. On the other hand, I believe that 4 Simian Spirit Guides should be part of the MD as these are the reason why the BR iteration of Reanimator is faster than BU one.

M2c

cris_rj
07-20-2016, 08:54 AM
Certainly the maindeck is agreed upon at this point. Any person looking to play the deck should definitely obtain:

4 Griselbrand, 6 other combo creatures / cards
12 Reanimation Spells
4 Thoughtseize 4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual 4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb 4 Faithless Looting
8 black fetches, 2 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 B/X splash dual land

I played the Burning Wish sideboard for a few months but since switching to a green sideboard I've been pretty impressed with 4 Abrupt Decay as a catchall answer that you bring in against almost every deck, expecting hate. I choose to be able to beat Leyline post-board so I also have 4 Reverent Silence in my sideboard. I think that you are only bringing in 4 cards at most against almost any deck, so I fill my sideboard with 4 ofs as much as possible.

My current creature suite is 4 Griz, 3 Jin-Gitaxias, 1 flex slot, and then 2 slots for 2 Children of Korlis + Tendrils of Agony. The flex slot started out as Grave Titan, switched to Tidespout Tyrant, but there's a lot of Swords to Plowshares running around. It will likely become Inkwell Leviathan or Archetype of Endurance.




You take OUT 4 Unmask to side in 4 abrupt decay ?

Nocley
07-20-2016, 12:06 PM
You take OUT 4 Unmask to side in 4 abrupt decay ?

I think Unmask is definitely required, Thoughtseize is the one that's being trimmed as well most often, which I do agree with (Going down to 2 isn't uncommon).


Although I agree with most of the ideas been thrown in this thread so far, I must nuance a bit what you are saying when it comes to the 'agreed' MD backbone.
Imho, the discard spells are not must play per say. They are good options but can also be a handicap every now and then. On the other hand, I believe that 4 Simian Spirit Guides should be part of the MD as these are the reason why the BR iteration of Reanimator is faster than BU one.

M2c

As for SSG, I much prefer Lotus Petal, as it's really a 60/40 flip of when I want B or R off the Petal, and not being able to get B is what forces me away from SSG. I also don't want to cut anything else from the MD given how intensive our combo already is (Though I could see SSG in place of the TSes as Petals 5+, but that's the only possible cut).

As for siding out things, against non-blue decks I almost always side out either Unmask or Chancellor, depending if I'm on play or draw.

DNSolver
07-20-2016, 12:30 PM
I typically take out Thoughtseizes for Decays / Reverents. Unmasks usually stay in because they are *disgusting*.

@Nocley he's talking about a version with Petals, Rituals, AND Simian Spirit Guides. Petals are non-negotiable for this deck.

ykpon
07-23-2016, 10:30 PM
Hey all, another guy who sometimes makes 5-0's with this deck online here (medvedev). Thanks for a great primer, just some notes I'd like to add.

First, in ~200 matches I've never missed the second Swamp. In my opinion being able to cast a turn 1 Looting (paying with a non-Petal source if possible) is much more important. I'm happy with my manabase of 8 fetches, 4 Badlands, 1 Swamp, 1 Bx dual. If splashing nothing then an extra fetchland or Blackcleave Cliffs instead. Also I think it's better to run bg+ub split of fetchlands because playing one of them and passing is a normal turn 1 play for many decks, thus lower probability of your opponent being suspicious and not using his DRS for mana turn 2 on play.

While I've always been running 0 or 4 Chancellors I kinda disagree that any numbers in between are wrong. This card is bad in multiples, you only want having two against FoW on draw. And it's not mentioned how good it protects your turn1 wins against FoW on play, it's basically a free Unmask. I find Chancellor being great in three situations: vs combo, vs FoW decks on play, and vs DRS/Thorn/Chalice decks on draw.

I see no point in running Lightning Bolt over Disfigure which kills all the same creatures but can be pitched to Unmask.

Needle can be useful not only against Karakas but also for DRS (unlike Disfigure it isn't black but can deal with multiples), Top/Jace (which in my experience isn't always as irrelevant as you say often being the only answer to Iona), Hexmage (quite popular online), and Faerie Macabre (if you're sure they run a full playset).

Elesh Norn is the best and probably the only really good reanimation target against Dredge. It's also obviously good against Elves, UR Delver and some other decks but if you don't expect Dredge then there might be better ways to use this sideboard slot.

Archon was also good against oldschool Sneak Attack deck but lately most people seem to run Sneak+Omniscience hybrid so it's not so useful anymore. Run one for Eldrazi matchup if you don't have Chancellors, not really needed if you do.

Against mana Dredge discard is good on play and often terrible on draw. Against manaless it's always great being basically a Time Walk.

You've posted my list as an example of blue splash but tbh I'm not really a fan. The only matchup where I'm really happy about SnT package is Eldrazi for two reasons: high probability of facing Leyline, and City being good alone against Thorns. If you expect a lot of Eldrazi it's a good idea to pack some Ingot Chewers as well — they are perfect answers to Thorn and Chalice.

As for general deckbuilding tips, I think important number to know is 14 — which means 90% probability to get something on turn 1. That's why I wouldn't recommend running less than 14 lands (or Chrome Mox which I've never tried but looks interesting), 14 ways to put a fatty into graveyard (so it's quite acceptable to cut Thoughtseizes down to two, and for me copies #3-4 are often first cards to side out even if they are supposed to be good), 10 fatties (14 with Entombs, you could justify running one less due to counting playset of Lootings as a virtual creature but not all fatties are good in all matchups so I'd still stick to 10), and 14 reanimation spells (not much you can do here so play 12 and hope for the best). Lately I think as a rule of thumb it's almost always correct to keep these groups even at sideboarding (like going down to 13 in each) even if it makes you keep 'bad' cards and cut the 'good' ones. It's often tempting to cut something weak like Animate Dead but it makes your deck too unstable unless you bring Gambit/SnT (note that these ones as well as Entomb let you cheat with numbers due to belonging to 2 categories at the same time). Besides two excessive discard spells, another safe cut for sideboarding is 2 ramp spells (probably Ritual+Petal split) because 22 sources of mana are two more than you need to consistently reach two mana on turn 2. Feel free to do it any time unless you have a very good reason not to decrease your turn 1 win probability (mirror, Belcher, being on the play expecting Cage/Flusterstorm).

I like the idea of Children and Tendrils but does it really improve any matchup? I don't remember many games lost after Griselbrand activation, and those were probably lost to some uncommon permanent hate like Chasm or Archon. While Tendrils combo deals with those, doesn't Tyrant do the same?

Another thing I'd like to discuss is what you guys do when unknown opponent concedes to your turn1 Sire. Do you bring something like Decay to deal with possible hate or just submit same 60 until you have more information?

DNSolver
07-24-2016, 07:45 AM
Great to hear from you on this forum! Glad you found it.

The second swamp is something that certainly can be cut. I like it against Delver decks to play around Wasteland to the maximum, but I will obtain a 3rd Badlands and see how it goes. I definitely agree that Verdant Catacombs is better than Bloodstained Mire because it leaks less information on our deck - Bloodstained Mire is only commonly run in combo decks (or burn I guess).

Lightning Bolt can kill Jace or Lily or go upstairs. I agree that Disfigure is likely better, though I haven't played much of either card.

Since switching to the Chrome Mox over the 14th land and the Children of Korlis -> Tendrils of Agony kill, I have never needed Pithing Needle. Karakas usually doesn't do anything unless there is another card involved (their Pithing Needle on Griselbrand, Thalia, Counterbalance, etc.) by which point the game is probably lost even with Tidespout because you are usually just as dead to Swords to Plowshares. I have started experimenting with an Inkwell Leviathan will only make my version better against Karakas, although Inkwell doesn't play nicely with Shallow Grave in my version. It might just become a maindeck Archetype of Endurance.

I have never worried about the Dredge matchup at all because Children of Korlis -> Tendrils changes some matchups. Against decks that can potentially deal with Griselbrand (Miracles, BUG, Death and Taxes) and decks that can beat it (Storm, Sneak and Show, Food Chain), you have a way of turning that Griselbrand into a win on the same turn. You DO lose some consistency because sometimes your turn 1 Looting -> discard fatty -> Reanimate won't be keepable because the "fatty" is the Children of Korlis taking up a slot. However, so many matchups change so drastically compared to Tidespout Locking or some other win condition that I am sticking with Children -> Tendrils kill. Edit: Also, after drawing 14, you need to make 3 mana to get Tidespout and then need more spells to cast to bounce anything that turn (not guaranteed even after drawing 14). Reanimate is still live after drawing 14 because Children only costs you one life, so you can get by with only 2 mana from the draw 14. Then, you don't need any other spells in hand, because Children is going to die and let you draw another 14. It is also randomly good when racing so you can freely draw 7-14 without impacting the damage race math.

I am glad to hear some thoughts on your blue splash, sad to hear that it hasn't been great for you. I usually board in ways to kill Leyline in the blind against Eldrazi, and I never board in more than 4 cards, so I won't be running Ingot Chewers. However, I will post Ingot Chewer somewhere in the primer.

After a turn 1 concede I think that boarding in Abrupt Decays is correct. You want Decays against Miracles, Eldrazi, Delver (all three most popular decks already), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, and Aggro Loam (some run Leyline but w/e). That's ~50% of the MTGO meta, and in paper Death and Taxes is played more so that only increases the %. You certainly don't need to mulligan to Decays, if I have a turn 1 on 7 cards on the draw G2 I still snap keep it. Also, Decays are semi-relevant against some other decks -> you could catch Storm off guard with a silly Abrupt Decay on their Lion's Eye Diamond.

xix
07-25-2016, 04:26 AM
@ykpon I like running the full 4 chancellors as well, but can't settle on maindeck or SB myself. Would like to hear a little deeper into the thought process you have on the matter, I have seen your lists off mtggoldfish, and have gone back and forth on the 4 sire maindeck as well since you can use it for unmask, which iona/archon etc can't.

@DNSolver As far as the land situation I keep going going between (13 land + mox/14 land+mox/14 land no Mox) I find it hard to know what is better, when you draw the land you need your great on 13, and sometimes your mulling and RNG hates you :/ But I do feel like Chrome mox is correct if your playing tendrils because its nice to have a free 0 drop for mana that counts to storm. I would most likely cut the Mox and run 14 land if I also cut the Tendrils.

2nd question: Thoughts on the Tendrils plan sans Jin-Gitaxias. I do storm off without it, but its always off a gb attack draw/child draw tendrils kind of a turn, but its defiantly lower than your % of being able to do so. Do you consider it worth it to try and tendrils at all in this case.


For reference ( I play in paper not MTGO), Im running a list similar to DNSolver but my creatures look like: (4gb, 1 Iona,1 Tidespout,1 Grave titan, 1 Sire,1 Child) (1 mox only) SB: (1 Inkwell, 1 Archon, 1 Elesh, 3 Reverent, 3 Decay, 4 Chancellor, 2 Faerie Macabre)
- I do have the tendrils in Maindeck for that combo as well. Not 100% sold does sometimes feel like its just a winmore card sometimes, But ending the game right there still reduces that off-chance you pass turn and they have something is very helpful.

In my Meta, we have 2 Dnt, 2 Eldrazi, 2 Shardless, 1 Omnitell, 1 Manaless, 1 Storm, 1 elves, 1 Miracles, 1 Punishing Jund/Lands guy, 1 Burn. And maybe a few more I am missing that are here and there. So I have been maindecking the Iona alot. I kind of what to test a archetype of endurance in the list, but most the time I just use the Inkwell for that, Blazing Archon I bring in for the eldrazi guys and it has been fantastic.

Thanks, and anyone feel free to post thoughts as well.

Rocco111
07-25-2016, 04:54 AM
I was indeed talking about running both Petals, Rituals AND SSG. I would not see any reason in the world to cut Petals for Guides. ;)

Regarding the Chancellors, I think the card is a monster. Like, it is the best way to go all-in. Now, if you do not play an All-in version, then I would indeed reflect on its relevance in the deck and would probably keep it in the sideboard. However, I do think it is '0 or 4'. At best, I could imagine a scenario where you have maybe a couple of combo decks in a meta and you already know the players running these deck so you just have 1 Chancellor in the SB, as a silver bullet, to entomb G2/3 to break their back. But even then, isn't it better to have 4 and be sure to have one in hand/grave faster?
I think the basic question is more to know whether you want to go through the hate T1 or not. If yes, then Chancellor is likely to become your best friend. If not, then leave it.

Quick question: has anyone being toying with Collective Brutality?
So far, I did a couple of games with it and found it to be interesting enough to seriously consider the card for the deck. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

ykpon
07-25-2016, 10:37 AM
@DNSolver
Good point about reanimating Children costing only 1 hp, now I see some upside of running Tendrils combo. However for me it still looks a bit weird to run both this combo and Tyrant whose main function in my experience is dealing with lock pieces you don't really care about with Tendrils. Maybe it's better to replace Tyrant with another fatty then?

@xix
For me maindeck core looks like this:

14 lands + 6 ramp spells
4 Looting + 4 Entomb + 4 Unmask + 2 Thoughtseize
12 reanimation spells
10 fatties

This leaves you with 56 cards. Remaining four are usually extra copies of Thoughtseize/Petal/Ritual but I can see playing something else here. An additional creature, Chrome Mox, Tendrils combo, Unburial Rites, maindeck Decay and so on — whatever you like.

As for 10 fatties, I like two approaches and still not sure which one is better:

1) 4 Griselbrand 4 Chancellor 1 Sire 1 Iona (sb: 1 Tyrant, 0-1 Archetype, 0-1 Elesh)
2) 4 Griselbrand 4 Sire 1 Iona 1 Tyrant/Archon (sb: 1 Archon/Tyrant, 0-1 Archetype, 0-1 Elesh, 0-4 Chancellor)

If you want to side in some creatures not mentioned, they'd better be useful against Miracles because both Chancellor and Sire are pretty bad on the draw against them.

On sideboard, I still fail to find a good configuration. It probably should include some amount of Decay/Needle and shouldn't include Gambit because this card despite being very good only really helps against those decks where our 60 are already good enough. What I know is that I'm not a fan of Reverent Silence unless there is Enchantress in your meta. Not many people play Leyline, and if they do they often don't draw it leaving you with a dead card, and if they do draw it you often don't draw Silence, and you both draw what you want you often either have a good way to win (like reanimating Reality Smasher) or lose despite having an answer (because they also have a turn1 Thorn turn2 Seer). Number of games you're going to win because of Silence is too low for me to justify running it, probably even lower than number of games you lose drawing it over what you side out.

@Rocco111
I can imagine a red-based list where SSG is better than Petal. No Unmask, red discard outlets, Goryo's Vengeance + Fury of the Horde combo, SSG + Pyroblast protection. Doubt it's a good idea though :)

Collective Brutality looks worse than something like Inquisition of Kozilek which also only deals with DRS on play (like we really need it) but isn't as narrow in other situations. If would be good if it could actuall kill DRS and discard FoW at the same time but it just doesn't work this way — they FoW it and exile what you discarded.

Nocley
07-25-2016, 12:01 PM
I'm beginning to agree with a lot of those comments, except the Reverent Silence. But that's mainly because I really need something to handle the Leyline decks, and I don't know what that is. Maybe it is Show and Tell (even though you say you no longer like it)? I went 3-3 in Legacy Festival yesterday, two of the matches being to terrible misplays (like clicking the wrong card with TS when I was just trying to focus window to get a screen shot of their hand), the third was getting stomped by Eldrazi with Leyline + Chalice.

But yeah, Gambit does not need to be a 4 of, if at all. I've only brought it in against a few lesser played archetypes, but it really does not need to have 4 slots, 3 max.

But I'm still stuck somewhere thinking about the current SB, given that I do see lots of Storm, Chalice Decks, and Lands locally (And yes, I know that makes no sense).

Assuming I'm still on the 4 Chancellor MD plan, this is the SB I want to try, though I don't know the next time I'll be able to play this deck.

1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn
3 Stronghold Gambit
3 Reverent Silence
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Abrupt Decay (or 2 / 2 Ingot Chewer, but I think I want Decays more to hit the other things like Counterbalance)

ykpon
07-25-2016, 01:07 PM
I'm beginning to agree with a lot of those comments, except the Reverent Silence. But that's mainly because I really need something to handle the Leyline decks, and I don't know what that is. Maybe it is Show and Tell (even though you say you no longer like it)?
Againt Leyline Show and Tell is good, I just don't face Leyline often enough. However SnT package eats half of your sideboard, it hurts if you aren't excited about it in popular matchups like Miracles and Grixis. I'm not but I know someone who is so maybe it's too early to reject it completely.

I think Chewer is better than Decay against Eldrazi, they both have pros and cons against Merfolk, and Decay is better in other matchups. So if you splash green and your meta isn't infested with Thorn of Amethist decks then play 4 Decay first I guess and then maybe add a couple of Chewers if you have any free slots you don't know how to use.

If Lands are popular in you meta then Gambit is actually fine because it lets you side some bad discard out. Also you can probably consider moving Iona to sideboard for maindeck Tyrant which is better against Lands and Eldrazi (and for storm Chancellor is usually enough).

DNSolver
07-27-2016, 10:07 AM
I'm usually pretty excited to see Griselbrand without Brainstorm, but what is this deck?

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/450102#online

Could we get Death.Gaze to explain this deck a bit? I don't really understand it. Looks like it might be a budget build (only one Griselbrand). No Faithless Lootings, Stage/Depths combo? Shattering Spree and Smelt in the maindeck? What is the point of that? Eldrazi decks? I don't know what I'm looking at, perhaps someone can help me out?

The Stage/Depths combo seems like good sideboard tech in that it avoids the graveyard, but it would probably need all 15 slots to be useful. Also, it seems like it is weak against Swords to Plowshares and Karakas, which people think are good against our deck and are likely to use in post-board games if they have them.

dudedusty
07-28-2016, 09:42 AM
Hi all!

Does anyone know of, or have links to, videos of B/R Reanimator in action? I'd prefer seeing it live, not on MTGO. I can find plenty of U/B, B/R seems to not be as prevalent. I just recently picked this deck up, and I learn best by watching others with it. Thanks!

DNSolver
07-28-2016, 09:50 AM
There are some Youtube videos of Jeremy Charles playing this deck at various French tournaments. Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clYX4UMM38w

Rocco111
07-28-2016, 10:11 AM
Jeremy aka "Dindon" >> DindonRea :wink:

RPS
07-28-2016, 04:16 PM
Hey, a list by bgg88 was featured in a Mtggoldfish article a few days ago. Almost have this list put together, just a need a Bayou. I'll be playing in my LGS's monthly Legacy challenge.

Here's the link.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-mkm-madrid-and-cheating-fatties-into-play

DNSolver
07-29-2016, 05:20 PM
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/451481#online

Another weird decklist - this guy MadScientist 777 appears to have forgotten his Dark Rituals at home. He also crams 4 Iona, Shield of Emeria into the main. Here are the tier 1 decks sad about turn 1/2 Iona (assuming you name the correct color)

Miracles - most versions are cutting Karakas, but naming White doesn't protect you from Vendilion Clique blocking and buying time for Jace, the Mind Sculptor to bounce it.
Storm - sad in G1, less sad post-board when they can cast Chain of Vapor. TES can Wish for Goblins in G1 or can bounce Iona with Void Snare - however, if you know you are against TES, you are probably naming Red anyway.
Reanimator, Elves - cutting off combo color
Sneak and Show - to a lesser extent because they have two combos in different colors.
Delver - doesn't really matter, the 7/7 is usually enough, but you *can* lose the race due to blocking with flipped Delvers
Shardless - naming black is okay, but Goyfs can race you or Jace can bounce it

As for decks where Iona is bad:

Death and Taxes - 3x Karakas on the turn they draw it are still bad odds for you with this
Eldrazi - Iona naming black for Dismember is okay, but you could still lose the race or die to Endbringer

4x seems like a lot but I guess right now it's okay? Thoughts?

dudedusty
07-30-2016, 06:12 PM
Well, if 4 Iona works, then it works. I don't see it as necessary, but it's hard to argue with results. I feel like the creature base in any Reanimator build is about 50% meta and 50% player preference. I like having 4 Sire of Insanity MB, just to see the look of despair on my opponent's face.

@DNSolver: I'm intrigued by the Tendrils angle. How well does that work, and what's the average damage you get when it goes off?

DNSolver
07-30-2016, 08:06 PM
dudedusty - what exactly are you wondering about with "the Tendrils angle"? When you have 42 cards in your hand, you can cast 10 spells easily, including the Tendrils. The only way to fizzle is to not get to Children of Korlis, which typically takes two or three fast mana and entomb->reanimate or just lotus petal -> children. Typically drawing 14 with any black mana floating is >90% to win on the spot, assuming no interaction from the opponent (such as Karakas / Swords in response to drawing).

Also, "results" in this case is the MTGO meta, which is very skewed. 4 Iona is great if you play against storm/burn/elves three times out of the five rounds. The primer discussion here is more of a place to think about what slots move around as the meta change.

Edit for example to make above statement less harsh: turn 1 Iona in the blind, name White (for Swords to Plowshares, very reasonable). Lands opponent crop rotates into Karakas and then you lose four turns later. Lands is much more popular in paper than online because online time limits work differently and because a playset of Rishadan Ports costs $1000 online.

dudedusty
07-30-2016, 09:54 PM
@DNSolver-I was thinking it was more of a traditional Storm kill, but if I'm understanding it right, you'd have already had to land a Griselbrand and sac/reanimate Children of Korlis multiple times to get the needed amount of cards in hand, correct?

Also, I don't play on MTGO, strictly paper.

into_play
07-30-2016, 11:26 PM
Hello! After reading this great thread and observing the success of this deck on Magic Online, I decided to take a version of this list to my local Legacy tournament today. In a 53 person tournament, I went 5-1 to make the top 8, but then lost in the top 8. My list was this (copied exactly from one of the mtggoldfish lists):

4 Griselbrand
4 Sire of Insanity
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting

2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stronghold Gambit
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Tidespout Tyrant

I went up against a slew of combo matchups that Reanimator typically feasts on and destroyed almost all of them. Beat Infect, beat Doomsday, lost to MUD, beat Soldier Stompy, beat an Affinity brew, and beat Goblins. Then lost in the top 8 to BUG Delver.

My thoughts on my list:

I would not change a single card in the maindeck. I understand the merits of running a fourth Badlands instead of the second basic Swamp, but there was at least one situation today when having the second basic saved me. My Soldier Stompy opponent had a new Thalia out and upon activating my Griselbrand, I needed to draw into my one remaining Swamp in order to have enough mana to Abrupt Decay his Chalice, then chain Rituals into a reanimated Blazing Archon. Luckily I drew into it, but had I not, I would have been one mana short and would have lost on his swing the following turn. Maybe this is just one obscure corner case, but I do like the relief of having a second basic in general with this deck, the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Blazing Archon is not always included maindeck, but I liked having him as the emergency option to best keep me alive in a rough spot. Since several decks simply cannot win at all once he hits the table, he gets a maindeck slot (being immediately game-winning is exactly what you want from most of your creatures). A creature that is untargetable or can remove permanents seems more situational in matchups where those are wanted, so I decided to keep those in the sideboard.

I have several doubts about my sideboard, however.

- Abrupt Decay was the MVP of the sideboard. It was amazing in every matchup that I brought it in, and it came in almost every time. I would play more than four if allowed.

- Stronghold Gambit worked well in the matchup (Doomsday) that I brought it in against, but that was the only matchup I used it and I'm not even sure it was really necessary. I do like the idea of including four copies of sideboard cards, to go all-in on one type of sideboarded answer. So maybe a restrictive Show and Tell is the best type of answer (over removal) for enough decks to warrant some number of Stronghold Gambits. I am really on the fence about this card, but will probably try four again simply because it's so fun and gratifying to finally get that card to work. Also, our Thoughtseizes and Unmasks clear the way very effectively and make Gambit safer for us to use than probably any other deck.

- Faerie Macabre didn't get used once today, but they are probably necessary. I will keep them.

- Pithing Needle was easily the worst sideboard card today. Even in the matchups like Goblins and BUG Delver where I could have brought them in, I opted not to. I used to play UB Reanimator almost exclusively, and that version of Reanimator seemed more about "finesse" and tip-toeing around an opponent's hate. Pithing Needle seemed more necessary in that version, to stop answers like Maze of Ith and Karakas and make Griselbrand better. But this red version seems more about brute force, and rushing out a Sire or Griselbrand as fast as possible. Just getting the creature out quickly should win the game by itself, and I think the hate should just be about working to that end. Needle seemed a lot worse at accomplishing what Abrupt Decay did better. I will replace them for the next tournament.

- Inkwell Leviathan and Tidespout Tyrant never seemed necessary for me to side in, but I think every Reanimator should have a creature that functions the way each of them do. They will stay.

Where I go from here:

The first thing I want to try out is replacing the two Pithing Needles with two Engineered Explosives. Has anyone tried Explosives in this deck? I think the card could be like Abrupt Decays 5-6, serving as removal yet being a little different. It answers almost every graveyard hate card (sans Leyline) plus it can potentially sweep multiple Deathrites and Delvers in one go. I always play Explosives in 12Post (my primary deck) and I love it. And it seems like it would have even more use with Renimator.

I might try to squeeze in 3-4 copies of Reverent Silence, but I question whether that much sideboard space is really needed to fight Leyline. For players that run them in the sideboard, do they feel absolutely necessary? Also, is the requirement of having a Forest in play ever a problem? Unlike Abrupt Decay, we need the Bayou in play and can't rely on Lotus Petal (unless we're paying the full four mana). I question whether that much sideboard space is required for a card that seems kind of narrow.

Also, I like the idea of Chancellor of the Annex strengthening our early game, but I don't know about how much space gets taken up by four copies of the card. I've noticed that most builds that run four Chancellors eschew some number of Sire of Insanity, and I don't like cutting the Sires. I think the full set of Sires plays very well into the speed of this deck (when you can get a big creature first turn, Sire almost always seems like the best choice), plus they increase your black card count to help cast Unmask. Also, hardcasting Sire is very possible with the Petals and Rituals, which is a pretty unique angle of getting a big creature into play. And Chancellor doesn't seem spectacular as a reanimated creature against several opponents.

In conclusion, I was astounded by the sheer speed, power and consistency of the deck! This thread has been incredibly useful, and I will be happy to contribute to it!

DNSolver
07-31-2016, 09:19 AM
I'm glad that you are now contributing! I will respond to some of your doubts and questions.

I agree on Pithing Needle being a weird kind of card for us to run. I find that the cards I would want to name with Needle are: Karakas, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, followed by artifact hate such as Nihil Spellbomb / Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus. The problem is that Abrupt Decay deals with all of those same things, while dodging counterspells, opposing Abrupt Decays (some players keep them, anticipating things like Needle or being able to Decay an Animate Dead). Also, I rarely want to cut more than 4 cards from the maindeck, because, as you say, the maindeck is very strong. So I rarely bring in more than 4 cards no matter what the sideboard looks like, because getting flooded by answers instead of threats hurts this deck a lot, even with Faithless Looting. For this reason, I prefer Decay OVER Needle with the justification that Karakas rarely does anything against this deck if you are reanimating early enough, and if you are reanimating later, having Needle might not have been enough anyway.

On a related note, I disagree with your preference of Sire of Insanity over Griselbrand on turn 1. If I'm reading your post right, it sounds like in the blind you would entomb->reanimate Sire over Griselbrand. After playing many many games over lots of different matchups with varying entomb targets, I am always getting Griselbrand. I have gotten Griselbrand over Iona against Elves, over Elesh Norn against Delver (post-board), over Sire against Storm (post-board). Griselbrand is just so broken, especially in this disgusting shell, and there are many more ways to lose with another threat. Examples of justfication of above: Elves sometimes plays Karakas in a Crop Rotation package, Delver could have Vapor Snag or some similar bounce spell, Storm brings in Chain of Vapor. We can usually find a way to make the secondary lock creature, such as Sire or Iona, in the 14 cards we can draw. Usually Griz -> draw -> Sire is a lock, but I have lost to Miracles on the draw with that (Top into Terminus). I've also gotten stonewalled and raced by BUG Delver when they made Tarmogoyfs. I'm certainly open to discussing this further.

On Reverent Silence: Leyline is rarely run, but my LGS has been terrorized by me and my friend enough with Griselbrand shenanigans that people show up ready to fight us. Someone there plays Punishing Knight - usually in that matchup Decays are necessary out of the board to answer Chalice, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite, Knight of the Reliquary, etc., but he also has 4 Leylines in his sideboard, so its not a good matchup after boarding. However, sometimes in the easier matchups you get Leyline'd out of the game. I like having a way to answer Leylines in my sideboard. Even if I don't expect it in G2 (bringing in Decays), I swap out my answers for G3. The "forest" clause has been relevant a couple of times when I was a bit land-screwed on the opener, but running the full 8 fetches helps to make sure that isn't really a concern. In the end, I like having an answer to Leyline, but I can totally understand wanting to cut them for more sideboard space.

Faerie Macabres are necessary, particularly if you play on MTGO because this deck is picking up steam.

The main benefit of Chancellors *in the sideboard*, after playing a bunch of games/matchups with them, is stealing back the play when you are on the draw. This helps against Deathrites and one-mana artifact hate, because now your hand can be a turn 2 when before it would need to be a turn 1 (or have Decays). Swapping out Chancellors into the deck over some Sires or other Entomb targets for games when you are on the draw seems okay. *Maindeck* Chancellors are more for getting the nut of a turn 1 combo, essentially with Daze backup. Having them in the maindeck costs you some power level consistency in exchange for more power level variance.

Engineered Explosives are interesting -> I have only thought about this card briefly but I have no opinion yet.

into_play
08-02-2016, 10:40 PM
On a related note, I disagree with your preference of Sire of Insanity over Griselbrand on turn 1. If I'm reading your post right, it sounds like in the blind you would entomb->reanimate Sire over Griselbrand. After playing many many games over lots of different matchups with varying entomb targets, I am always getting Griselbrand. I have gotten Griselbrand over Iona against Elves, over Elesh Norn against Delver (post-board), over Sire against Storm (post-board). Griselbrand is just so broken, especially in this disgusting shell, and there are many more ways to lose with another threat. Examples of justfication of above: Elves sometimes plays Karakas in a Crop Rotation package, Delver could have Vapor Snag or some similar bounce spell, Storm brings in Chain of Vapor. We can usually find a way to make the secondary lock creature, such as Sire or Iona, in the 14 cards we can draw. Usually Griz -> draw -> Sire is a lock, but I have lost to Miracles on the draw with that (Top into Terminus). I've also gotten stonewalled and raced by BUG Delver when they made Tarmogoyfs. I'm certainly open to discussing this further.

I see. If I were to have enough pieces for a second reanimation combo after getting my first creature out, or a spare Unmask in hand, then I would certainly get Griselbrand first and go for a second turn one fatty. But there are certainly situations where I would find the Sire discard to be more devastating. Against another combo deck like Storm or Omnitell, a Griselbrand drawing into some discard spells may not be enough to stop an opponent's own explosive kill. If I'm on the play and I know I am facing Miracles, then the opponent will need to first draw a land and then they need to find the Swords or Terminus in the face of a Sire. Against Griselbrand, they would have more cards to work with. If I know my opponent is playing Karakas, then there can be damage racing reasons to pick the nonlegendary creature.

But I understand that Griselbrand is just so busted and there's never truly a bad time to go get him first. I'm really just making my case for why Sire is another fine turn one fatty. Many opponents are probably somewhat experienced about facing a possible turn one Griselbrand; they might not yet be used to discarding their hand turn one. But having a full playset of two outstanding reanimation targets instead of just the usual one of traditional Reanimator builds is one of the main draws of BR Reanimator.

Rocco111
08-03-2016, 04:42 AM
Imho it really boils down to your experience playing the deck and the MU you are facing.

Do not get me wrong. I also came to realize that T1 Griselbrand is more busted than anything else.
BUT in certain cases, other targets may grant you the T1-GG. Sire is clearly the n1 option there. Iona and Elesh norn (and to some extent Blazing Archon) too.

We could make a case per fatty and see what is a best T1 Target vs what MU (T1 Elesh vs Goblin/Elf/Merfolk/DnT will most certainly be a hit, although not as critical vs DnT, T1 Archon vs Eldrazi or Delver decks, T1 Iona vs Miracle will most certainly open the door for tons of fun but is not autowin...). But when you do not know what your opponent is playing, the safer, better play is T1 Grisel. :wink:

DNSolver
08-03-2016, 11:52 AM
The thing is that usually even if you go hellbent to make a turn 1 creature, if you get Griselbrand then you can usually make a Sire turn 1 *as well* and that should lock up the game.

The problem I'm seeing with Blazing Archon against Delver is that double bolt or block with Insectile Abberation -> bolt kills it. IMO this makes it a less reliable GG target while Griselbrand can draw cards in spots where you need to draw cards but otherwise just be a giant lifelinker.

I guess having 8 disgusting turn 1 guys is pretty good. I just can't see Sire being amazing on the draw, especially against turn 1 Top. Personally I prefer Griselbrand so much that I'm experimenting with cutting some fatties for Gambles (to get Entomb).

DNSolver
08-10-2016, 07:38 AM
Lent the deck out to one of my friends last night. First time playing the deck, and he went 3-1 after arriving late, getting a round 1 loss. Decklist is typical Children/Tendrils with my green sideboard, but with 4 Sires over my typical 3 Jin-Gitaxias 1 other fatty. For his tournament:

R2: Enlightened Tutor Miracles (with maindeck RIP) 2-1
R3: Storm 1-2
R4: Pox 2-1
R5: Mogg Stompy (Faerie Macabre in the sideboard) 2-0 after G1 turn 1 kill and G2 opponent mulls to 4 to find land + Faerie

It was exciting to see someone else play it for the first time. He was planning on building blue-black Reanimator but he thought the deck was so fun and disgusting that he's going to switch into this deck. I've converted another one :D That makes 2 IRL, who knows how many online...

dudedusty
08-10-2016, 02:51 PM
Lent the deck out to one of my friends last night. First time playing the deck, and he went 3-1 after arriving late, getting a round 1 loss. Decklist is typical Children/Tendrils with my green sideboard, but with 4 Sires over my typical 3 Jin-Gitaxias 1 other fatty. For his tournament:

R2: Enlightened Tutor Miracles (with maindeck RIP) 2-1
R3: Storm 1-2
R4: Pox 2-1
R5: Mogg Stompy (Faerie Macabre in the sideboard) 2-0 after G1 turn 1 kill and G2 opponent mulls to 4 to find land + Faerie

It was exciting to see someone else play it for the first time. He was planning on building blue-black Reanimator but he thought the deck was so fun and disgusting that he's going to switch into this deck. I've converted another one :D That makes 2 IRL, who knows how many online...

How did your friend like the Sires? I've been finding myself straddling the fence about them? Sometimes I just feel that dumping my own hand isn't the greatest plan. Also, if anyone here has any tips/tricks for making the Death and Taxes matchup a bit better, I'd love to hear them. I've been doing great against most other archetypes, but I'm currently 1-5 in matches against DnT. Could be I'm playing the MU wrong, but it just feels like a bad pairing.

DNSolver
08-10-2016, 04:38 PM
The Children of Korlis / Tendrils of Agony kill makes the Death and Taxes matchup comical. They have no turn 1 hate other than Karakas / Swords / Needle on Griselbrand. I have lost a few matches when the 7 or 14 cards I drew weren't enough to keep going on that turn and then I got tempoed out by Thalia -> Revoker etc. But in general we easily win G1 and then we are on the play one of the two sideboarded games, so it's pretty elementary to kill on turn 1 or 2 in that game. It's a very favorable pairing, especially if you are on Firestorms over discard spells.

Believe me, I hate the Sires too, but I think that right now they might be better than Jin-Gitaxias. It comes at the cost of giving up Shallow Grave, but it's better to have both players have no hand than having 7 cards you can't cast due to turn 1 Chalice/Thorn out of Eldrazi (or I guess Sphere out of Lands) on the other side. It's only the matchups like that where I miss them. Also, there were two games he played where he cast Sire.

dudedusty
08-10-2016, 05:01 PM
I may have to try out the Children/Tendrils combo. I currently run basically the same list as Into_Play posted at the top of this page, but with a Leviathan MD and Archon in the board. My meta has a lot of DnT, Stoneblade, and Miracles, so being resistant to Swords is a huge upside. How often do you end up actually using the Tendrils to win?

DNSolver
08-10-2016, 05:07 PM
Entomb + Reanimate on Children of Korlis with the fast mana you draw off of Griselbrand. Rinse and repeat, drawing just about your whole deck, casting all the fast mana, then Tendrils opponent.

splorf
08-15-2016, 02:32 AM
Hey mates,

it's the first time I post here and also the first time since the late 90s that I've played the good ol' duals, so be gentle with me! :wink: Yesterday I participated in one of the rare Legacy tournaments in the surrounding area and I decided to give BR Reanimator a shot - it was definitely a good choice!

There were 31 participants and I missed top 8 with a (nevertheless) satisfiable 9th place (3:2). My list was the following:

4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Grave Titan

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Faithless Looting
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp

SB:
4 Stronghold Gambit
3 Pyroblast
1 Extirpate (I don't have Surgicals yet)
1 Pyroclasm (would have been another copy of Wear // Tear, which I lend to a buddy of mine)
1 Wear // Tear
1 Silence
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Ashen Rider
1 Keranos

The matches were:
UR Delver (1:2)
BUG Delver (I guess..., actually I haven't seen more than a Bayou in both games hehe) (2:0)
Dredge (2:0)
BUG Delver (0:2)
BUG Delver (again *sigh*) (2:1)

There wasn't anything special in the course of the matches, aside from the fact that Collective Brutality's performance was amazing! It was never a blank, on the contrary it won me at least two games. I'm certainly not the luminary with this deck, but I highly recommend to give this card a shot. It really felt like a jack of all trades device!

DNSolver
08-15-2016, 08:41 AM
Glad that you enjoyed Griselbranding, despite facing Delver four rounds out of five - sounds like misery. Could you elaborate on a couple of situations where Collective Brutality was good? I am wondering if Unmask could have done a similar job in such circumstances.

splorf
08-15-2016, 04:49 PM
Glad that you enjoyed Griselbranding, despite facing Delver four rounds out of five - sounds like misery. Could you elaborate on a couple of situations where Collective Brutality was good? I am wondering if Unmask could have done a similar job in such circumstances.

Collective Brutality was always useful at some point. Against Dredge it ruined combat math completely, because my opponent didn't expect it. He was at 13 life and went all in to kill me on his following turn, when I was at 3 life with 12 power on the board (Griselbrand and Chancellor). Against the Delver decks it allowed me to race my opponent. The removal was pretty good for me in those matches and in another situation the life-swing was important again. But the icing on the cake was the ability to pitch blanks or fatties for free (uncounterable, since it's part of the casting cost). I can't remember casting it just using a single mode. It just felt like a natural inclusion to this deck, since all modes seemed to be pretty relevant in my matches and it's capable of generating an insane amount of value. Unmask is more straight forward and faster, but not as versatile.

Edit:
To sum it up: Due to Collective Brutality's versatility it was valuable in almost every stage of the game, while Unmask is more streamlined at the expense of utility.

.Ix
08-15-2016, 11:12 PM
Why are you running 1 Liliana? That seems really out of place.

Edit: just wondering, not trying to be a jerk or anything.

splorf
08-16-2016, 06:48 AM
Why are you running 1 Liliana? That seems really out of place.

Edit: just wondering, not trying to be a jerk or anything.

Just as another discard outlet and I wanted to have more disruptive elements. Could easily be another Thoughtseize. No deeper meaning there.

bluefurok
08-21-2016, 01:15 PM
Hey guys! Finally registered here so this is my first post. DNSolver and I go to the same lgs. One of my friends is interested in the deck and started experimenting with the card anger. Could it be useful as a 1 of to swing with griselbrand on turn 1 and basically be guaranteed to get the storm kill with children/tendrils? I feel like replacing one sire of insanity with it is better than replacing animate dead with shallow grave. My friend also ran zombie infestation over three of the sires to make a bunch of zombies from the griselbrand draw then get anger in the yard then swing for the win t1 (not sure if this is good but it's interesting)

DNSolver
08-22-2016, 09:24 AM
Let's look at the math behind that plan with a few points.

1) let's assume optimal conditions, Badlands -> dark rit -> entomb -> exhume Griz. Now we draw 14. Now we need to find a Zombie Infestation and an Entomb in those 14 cards, unless we had it already in our opener. Finding Entomb in 14 cards is hit or miss, but now you want to hit another 3-of or 4-of? Sometimes that plan will simply not work, while Entomb is all that is necessary to find Children, and there are 11 reanimation spells remaining in the deck that would serve to bring back Children. Edit: Also, once you spend another two fast mana to cast the Zombie Infestation, you are now at less than 14 cards. You start with 7, you spend 4 as described above (assuming optimal conditions) to get Griselbrand, then you spend 3 more to get Zombie Infestation into play. That's 7 cards spent out of 21 cards total. So if you mulligan to 6, you can only win this way on turn 1 on the draw. Also, this is assuming your spell to get Griselbrand isn't Reanimate, because then you only have half as many cards to play with.

2) Cutting Sires or other creatures for Zombie Infestations will decrease the number of turn 1 creatures from Faithless Looting -> Reanimate draws.

3) Keeping Children / Tendrils and adding Anger is definitely overkill because the kill is ~70% in 14 cards, and that's when you have to kill them that turn. Sometimes you wait a turn and kill them after you untap and attack, guaranteeing a win in 21 cards (+1 from draw).

As far as Zombie Infestation itself, it is a cool card that could be considered in the sideboard to get around Surgical Extraction. Once it resolves, you should win against Miracles unless they have a fast Mentor start. It probably is also scoop phase for Delver decks on turn 1 or 2, unless they have Goyf. It's certainly interesting, and with the number of Surgical Extractions increasing, we could probably investigate this as an option. I'm not sure about this, though, because even if you keep 7 you are going land, fast mana -> Zombie Infestation with only 4 cards left in hand, so essentially making 2 2/2s on turn 1. That's not a very fast clock. I guess if you are on the draw it's power level increases because you get an extra card? I will investigate it.

.Ix
08-22-2016, 07:56 PM
Why does this deck play Tendrils instead of Sickening Dreams? Dreams seems a lot more useful outside the combo turn, and is probably just as lethal with Children. Am I missing something here?

DNSolver
08-23-2016, 03:38 PM
Glacial Chasm is the reason to play Tendrils over Sickening Dreams.

Rocco111
08-24-2016, 04:18 AM
@ .Ix
In some version, both Tendrils and Sickening Dreams are played along side Children of Korlis. All as a 1-off to avoid breaking the backbone of the deck.
Personaly I always had mitigated thought on Sickening Dreams. But it is an additional discard outlet so this is a pro for the card as a whole.
I advise you to give it a go and then get back to us with your own feedback. Like for Unmask, I do not like playing it but it is a popular choice amongst players (especially here) so does that mean the card is good or bad? Not necessarily. It fits certain purposes and goals which befits your type of play or not... :)

splorf
08-24-2016, 11:20 PM
Regarding Collective Brutality: This is a quite different take on Reanimator, but this card seems to be viable
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13314&d=278162&f=LE

.Ix
08-25-2016, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the responses. I see how Tendrils is better against Lands. It's not really played here though, so I guess Dreams has a bit more value. I don't think I would run both, either.

Maybe Unmask and Brutality should be run together? Toss Unmask to Brutality for turn3-4 plays, and vice versa for T1 kills. Seems fun.

My friends have been borrowing my cards to run the 4 SSG 4 Chancellor dindonrea build to 2-2 standings locally. Maybe it's time to try a list with discard.

Rocco111
08-26-2016, 04:27 AM
My friends have been borrowing my cards to run the 4 SSG 4 Chancellor dindonrea build to 2-2 standings locally. Maybe it's time to try a list with discard.

Interesting. I'd love to hear about their feedback on this build. This is the one I am running more than regularly.
What were the decks they faced?

Over here, when playing this version, we realized that the deck allows to mulligan rather aggressively, especially since we aim at comboing off T1-T2.

Lately, we've been toying with Insolent Neonate as additional Draw/Discard outlet. And I even play a MD Magus of the Moon.

DNSolver
08-27-2016, 12:53 AM
FNM didn't go very well.

R1 bye

R2 Deathblade 1-2 - lost game 1 because I drew three creatures for my first three draw steps. G3 he had 2 Surgical Extractions in his opener.

R3 Burn - 1-2 - in this match, saw 4 hands with no lands, 2 of which I kept but missed on mana on 5-6 draw steps. Completely ridiculous variance here, nothing to interpret in my opinion. I mean, I am pretty sure I keep dark ritual, entomb, exhume, 3 other cards on a mull to 6, with a scry to find a land or lotus petal in the top 3 cards would be acceptable.

R4 BR Griselbrand semi-mirror 2-0

My store has started playing multiple Surgical Extractions per deck, so it has been getting more difficult to Griselbrand people properly. I am playing 4 Chancellor and Animate Deads still, probably necessary because of all the Surgicals.

Rocco111
08-27-2016, 03:43 PM
Not sure about your comment regarding the Animated Dead.
Did you mean Exhume?
'cause AD needs a target in the grave when you cast it.

Personal type of play when dealing with Surgical Extraction:
-if possible- Entomb first a one-off target and (try to) reanimate it. The reason is fairly simple: if this one is getting extracted, no big harm done since the 4-offs targets are still 'available' for future reanimation spells. If it did not get extracted, you are still ahead with a fatty in play.
Play cards like Stronghold Gambit (creature doesn't need to go to the graveyard) or Sneak Attack post-Side.
Play more creatures post-side which can be hardcasted instead of solely reanimated (Sire of Insanity, Grave Titan, Inferno Titan or even Wurmcoil Engine). Avoiding to rely to much on your graveyard can create windows and reverse the game in an expected way.
Maaaaaaaybe worth considering a switch with Gitaxian Probes and Cabal Therapies. Probes MD and Therapies in the SB for instance (or even a couple MD).

I mean, this is probably obvious to most... or maybe not.

.Ix
09-03-2016, 09:55 AM
Interesting. I'd love to hear about their feedback on this build. This is the one I am running more than regularly.
What were the decks they faced?

Over here, when playing this version, we realized that the deck allows to mulligan rather aggressively, especially since we aim at comboing off T1-T2.

Lately, we've been toying with Insolent Neonate as additional Draw/Discard outlet. And I even play a MD Magus of the Moon.

I honestly don't know what they think of the deck. I haven't asked them. I think they mulligan and blow themselves up a lot. Funny enough, this guy on Maverick always beats his Reanimator opponents, even Dindonrea. Do you have a list that you can share?

DNSolver
09-05-2016, 12:30 PM
3-1 at a Sunday Legacy event to make top 4, then split top 4 for $60 credit each.

R1: UB Reanimator
G1: He mulls to 5 but has turn 2 Griselbrand. He fortunately didn't get a chance to see what I was playing.
G2: I reveal Chancellor and shred his hand with discard, then end up making a Chancellor and clock him with it.
G3: I Faerie Macabre in response to a Thoughtseize, eating a Tidespout and Blazing Archon. I end up getting a Chancellor out and beating him down with it. I Entomb a Griselbrand just before his last possible turn so that Exhume returning his Griselbrand wouldn't be enough.

R2: Grixis Delver
G1: Thoughtseize takes a DRS, then I combo with Griselbrand.
G2: I decided to go on the Stronghold Gambit plan, mostly because the hate cards out of Delver decks have been moving towards Surgicals, up to even 4 copies. Unfortunately, despite having a great hand with a primary reanimation plan and a Gambit backup plan, I drew more copies of Griselbrand and he kept drawing creatures. Gitaxian Probe was invaluable here for him to know what I was planning.
G3: More of a resounding defeat after he probes and sees my Gambit plan. If this matchup was easy this deck would be broken, so I guess we have to accept it.

R3: Infect
G1: I have a turn 1 on the play reveal chancellor -> reanimate Chancellor. Over the next two draw steps I draw Entomb and Reanimate to make a Griselbrand to block his infect creature.
G2: My attempt at making Griselbrand the first time gets hit by Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog. However, he has no response for my 2nd attempt and Griselbrand hits play. He has a Glistener Elf in play. I draw 7 cards and hit a land for turn and a Thoughtseize, which takes the lethal Berserk in his hand (gives trample). I also have Abrupt Decay, so I am able to kill his Elf the next turn and easily win.

R4: Miracles
G1: He mulls to 5 and I Thoughtseize before going off.
G2: He mulls to 5 and I Thoughtseize before going off.

ChrisDissent
09-05-2016, 01:24 PM
@DNSolver :I'm trying various builds of the deck and right now I'm following your footsteps as it provides consistency to the deck, thanks to the discard pack.
Can I ask you to share an updated list of yours, just to compare. I'll really appreciate :)

And BTW, congratz !! Grixis seems a very difficult matchup, as they have more threatening hate that we can handle G2/3.

DNSolver
09-05-2016, 09:59 PM
Current build:

4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Reverent Silence
3 Stronghold Gambit
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Faerie Macabre

into_play
09-06-2016, 08:15 AM
I was thinking - based on the lists I see online, most builds opt to either splash green for Abrupt Decay out of the board or blue for Show and Tell. Since the color requirement for either is really just a single dual land of the splash color, would it really be that much of a stretch to include both colors and get the best of both worlds?

I'm thinking a manabase something like:

8 fetchlands
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

Then a sideboard:

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Show and Tell
2 City of Traitors (when going Show and Tell route)
3 Faerie Macabre
2 situational fatties

Is there something that I am just not thinking of? Because with this setup (compared to the BRg builds with Stronghold Gambit in the board), you are basically trading the much more conditional Gambit for Show and Tell at the cost of just one of your basics or Badlands. I think I might try this direction next...

DNSolver
09-06-2016, 11:26 AM
So, when are you going to board in Abrupt Decay vs Show and Tell? What are your sideboard plans for each? Are you boarding in both?

I don't think that we can ever board in 8-10 cards for both, due to diluting the deck too much. I think that up to 4 discard spells are cuttable, or possibly 1-2 fast mana in the place of discard, or Children/Tendrils when facing a deck that folds to Griselbrand's lifelink.

If you can confidently list matchups where Decay is better vs where Show and Tell is better, and an in/out guide for each, go for it.

into_play
09-06-2016, 11:13 PM
^ Well, when you say it like that, I guess there is no good reason to include both. That is the reason I asked the question.

I would never board in 8 cards. If Show and Tells in the blue version are intended for the same matchups that Abrupt Decay gets brought in for the green version, then I would prefer to just stick to green. Against Show and Tell decks, I would bring in the Gambits (our 6 mana Sire < their 8 mana Griselbrands).

.Ix
09-11-2016, 11:41 AM
So this deck took 2nd place at the 195-player BOM Paris.

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/fr/urlrw,40.html?event=21&evt=21

Interesting that he didn't play Children and a kill spell.

DNSolver
09-12-2016, 10:40 AM
Cool list. I have thought about Insolent Neonate before but looks like he had some success. Looks like after G1 he sides in 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Sneak Attack. Seems pretty good with all of his fast mana.

After playing Chancellor of the Annex for a bit, I'm thinking more and more that beating Surgical Extraction is not realistic without Shallow Grave. I think we have to streamline the deck to beat other cards besides Surgical. The best way to do it is probabably without Chancellor. The BoM version looks fine with it I guess, but mostly because it has extra fast mana and such. I would still rather play discard main, so I am making these changes:

-4 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Inkwell Leviathan
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+1 Tidespout Tyrant
+1 Sire of Insanity

SB:
Find room for Archetype of Endurance (to replace Sire after sideboard, might find his way into the main over Sire)

Final Fortune
09-15-2016, 06:27 AM
Is anybody else looking at splashing the Redcap Experiment and Platinum Emperium combo in the deck? They basically gave us our own Tinker Colossus combo to fall back on, which is pretty redundant if you count Burning Wish as well.

DNSolver
09-15-2016, 11:07 AM
Cast Madcap Experiment.

Reveal Lotus Petal.

Concede.

So if we wanted to run that, we would have to cut fast mana. We could replace them with Spirit Guides I guess? But keep in mind that in Legacy (and modern too) Platinum Emperion is pretty bad. He can easily gets hit with Swords to Plowshares, Maze of Ith, Liliana, Jace, etc. because he doesn't do anything when he comes into play and he doesn't fly, so he can get chumped. Even if we turn 1 him we are still not in great shape vs many of the decks in the format.

CovenantElite30
09-16-2016, 09:50 AM
On paper this deck looks really fun, but after playing it I just don't see how anyone could have consistent success with it.

The player who finished 2nd at the BoM Paris I think was just running hot.

Could you guys convince me I'm wrong here?

I just think the blue splash version is hands down just better.

DNSolver
09-16-2016, 03:22 PM
Blue version struggles against Death and Taxes and Miracles. This version destroys Death and Taxes and has a good chance against Miracles.

I'm going to add this to the primer OP because people are asking about it.

CovenantElite30
09-16-2016, 05:11 PM
Blue version struggles against Death and Taxes and Miracles. This version destroys Death and Taxes and has a good chance against Miracles.

I'm going to add this to the primer OP because people are asking about it.


Why is is better against D&T and Miracles? Also I would if you could try to post a sideboarding guide for "Chevallier Michel" top 8 list from BoM Paris. Maybe try and contact him. I'm curious how he sideboards.

Thank you.

DNSolver
09-16-2016, 11:17 PM
Why is is better against D&T and Miracles? Also I would if you could try to post a sideboarding guide for "Chevallier Michel" top 8 list from BoM Paris. Maybe try and contact him. I'm curious how he sideboards.

Thank you.

Most played hate cards out of Death and Taxes: Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Relic of Progenitus, Phyrexian Revoker on Griselbrand, Thalia, etc.
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: none
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: Grafdigger's Cage

Most played hate cards out of Miracles: Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, Containment Priest, Top/Balance combo, Force of Will, Pithing Needle
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: Surgical Extraction, Force of Will (sometimes)
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: above, also Pithing Needle (sometimes)

TLDR Spending a turn cantripping isn't as good as having a turn 1 combo available if you need it. Right now, it is better to have more redundancy than counter backup, and to be a turn faster than a turn more protected.

If you have any idea how to contact that guy from the Bazaar of Moxen, let me know. I can't do anything unless he posts on here. I also don't know what the philosophy is behind the Sneak Attacks, or why there are only 3.

CovenantElite30
09-16-2016, 11:35 PM
Most played hate cards out of Death and Taxes: Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Relic of Progenitus, Phyrexian Revoker on Griselbrand, Thalia, etc.
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: none
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: Grafdigger's Cage

Most played hate cards out of Miracles: Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, Containment Priest, Top/Balance combo, Force of Will, Pithing Needle
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: Surgical Extraction, Force of Will (sometimes)
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: above, also Pithing Needle (sometimes)

TLDR Spending a turn cantripping isn't as good as having a turn 1 combo available if you need it. Right now, it is better to have more redundancy than counter backup, and to be a turn faster than a turn more protected.

If you have any idea how to contact that guy from the Bazaar of Moxen, let me know. I can't do anything unless he posts on here. I also don't know what the philosophy is behind the Sneak Attacks, or why there are only 3.
I would imagine the 3 Sneak Attacks are for the same reason the blue version plays Show and Tell. Sometimes you need another way to get the creatures into play. I noticed the red splash has no way of dealing with permanents. What do you suggest?

CovenantElite30
09-17-2016, 01:00 PM
Most played hate cards out of Death and Taxes: Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Relic of Progenitus, Phyrexian Revoker on Griselbrand, Thalia, etc.
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: none
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: Grafdigger's Cage

Most played hate cards out of Miracles: Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, Containment Priest, Top/Balance combo, Force of Will, Pithing Needle
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: Surgical Extraction, Force of Will (sometimes)
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: above, also Pithing Needle (sometimes)

TLDR Spending a turn cantripping isn't as good as having a turn 1 combo available if you need it. Right now, it is better to have more redundancy than counter backup, and to be a turn faster than a turn more protected.

If you have any idea how to contact that guy from the Bazaar of Moxen, let me know. I can't do anything unless he posts on here. I also don't know what the philosophy is behind the Sneak Attacks, or why there are only 3.

I've been playtesting with the deck online a bunch, I find mostly delver matchups to be very difficult.

This is mostly because they play sooo many counter spells. I find it nearly impossible to get through there counters.

Any suggestions?

xix
09-18-2016, 06:44 AM
I just think the blue splash version is hands down just better.

I think the blue version is better in general as well especially into more decks in the field. This versions advantage is the speed and redundancy of reanimation spells, @ your other posts, if you would post what you deck submitted/kept/sideboarded/game1/2/what you played against, It would help to see if you were keeping weaker hands or not. Also, are you on the CoTA (Annex) plan or not. It makes a big deal in these games, this deck can just flat out win turn 1/2 fairly often even through hate. And by win I mean be in a superior board position that most decks can't beat.

CovenantElite30
09-18-2016, 09:03 AM
I think the blue version is better in general as well especially into more decks in the field. This versions advantage is the speed and redundancy of reanimation spells, @ your other posts, if you would post what you deck submitted/kept/sideboarded/game1/2/what you played against, It would help to see if you were keeping weaker hands or not. Also, are you on the CoTA (Annex) plan or not. It makes a big deal in these games, this deck can just flat out win turn 1/2 fairly often even through hate. And by win I mean be in a superior board position that most decks can't beat.

Maybe you can help me with my sideboard. After playing about 20 matches I've made a bunch of changes. I would be open to suggestions.

4 Blood Moon
4 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Reverent Silence

So the 4 Blood Moons are there to help against the delver matchups as well as the 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All which is also helpful against miracles. I also find myself bringing in the 4 Thoughtseize so a total of 9 cards. Against Eldrazi which I'm 0-3 so far I've changed the deck to be able to deal with [cards] Leyline of the Void[cards] which before was nearly impossible to deal with. The 3 Reverent Silence have been great and I play a 1 of Bayou main to be able to cast it. The 1 of creatures are pretty standard and obvious what matchups you want them in.

CovenantElite30
09-18-2016, 10:34 AM
I am now 0-5 versus Eldrazi. Reanimator in generally cannot beat a turn 0 Leyline of the Void against Eldrazi PERIOD.

Very mad....

DNSolver
09-18-2016, 10:54 AM
Apart from Reverent Silence, you can win against Leyline out of Eldrazi with this (screenshot):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnGVBTXWEAAqjZS.jpg:large

For those of you who can't view pictures: Dark Ritual -> Thoughtseize -> take opponent's big scary Eldrazi -> reanimate it.

Some other versions have Show and Tell for this matchup.

Edit: Blood Moon is an interesting idea vs Delver. Might have to try it a bit. It seems really good against the Surgical Extraction hands they have. But does this mean you don't have any Abrupt Decay in your sideboard at all?

CovenantElite30
09-18-2016, 12:08 PM
Apart from Reverent Silence, you can win against Leyline out of Eldrazi with this (screenshot):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnGVBTXWEAAqjZS.jpg:large

For those of you who can't view pictures: Dark Ritual -> Thoughtseize -> take opponent's big scary Eldrazi -> reanimate it.

Some other versions have Show and Tell for this matchup.

Edit: Blood Moon is an interesting idea vs Delver. Might have to try it a bit. It seems really good against the Surgical Extraction hands they have. But does this mean you don't have any Abrupt Decay in your sideboard at all?
What's your update list your running. I'm curious how different it is to mine. I'm basically playing the same 60 as the 2nd place list from mox but with only 3 griss and 1 Ashen Rider which has helped a ton.

CovenantElite30
09-18-2016, 12:53 PM
After playing this deck for the entire weekend I've come to the conclusion: Don't waste your time, the deck is maybe 50 percent versus the field. Any deck that plays blue you just straight up lose and any deck that plays Leyline of the Void you just straight up lose. The deck has a positive matchup against D&t, Elves, Show & Tell, Burn, Infect, ANT, Maverick and Seems to be good against the Blue splash reanimator. Negative matchups are Miracles, Eldrazi, Shardless and every Delver deck. Seeing how this deck literally can't beat the majority of tier 1 decks, I wouldn't play it in a large tournament. If you want to spike a FNM, then maybe this deck would do the trick. How that guy finished 2nd at the MOX in Paris, no idea. Variance I guess.

DNSolver
09-18-2016, 06:32 PM
How exactly did you lose against Shardless BUG? Miracles should be alright if they are on Rest in Peace as their grave hate. If they are on Surgical then it's more of a hard time. Also, did you try versions with maindeck discard or did you stick to the BOM list?

Edit: I don't understand how Ashen Rider helped you at all. Tidespout is better at basically everything Ashen Rider does. Going to 3 Griselbrand is something I will never consider personally.

CovenantElite30
09-18-2016, 09:42 PM
How exactly did you lose against Shardless BUG? Miracles should be alright if they are on Rest in Peace as their grave hate. If they are on Surgical then it's more of a hard time. Also, did you try versions with maindeck discard or did you stick to the BOM list?

Edit: I don't understand how Ashen Rider helped you at all. Tidespout is better at basically everything Ashen Rider does. Going to 3 Griselbrand is something I will never consider personally.

Shardless plays Leyline of the Void in the side. I was playing the BOM list. Ashen Rider is was very good for me against Show and Tell. It also gives me a main deck answer to some difficult permanents to deal with like Ensnaring Bridge. I've switched up the main deck of the BOOM list and added the 4 Thoughseizes and 4 Unmask. Seems to be a bit better against blue decks, still testing.


EDIT:

ADD JUND to the list of decks that reanimator can't beat. I find myself questioning why anyone would play this deck. It's so bad...

CptHaddock
09-18-2016, 11:44 PM
Shardless plays Leyline of the Void in the side. I was playing the BOM list. Ashen Rider is was very good for me against Show and Tell. It also gives me a main deck answer to some difficult permanents to deal with like Ensnaring Bridge. I've switched up the main deck of the BOOM list and added the 4 Thoughseizes and 4 Unmask. Seems to be a bit better against blue decks, still testing.


EDIT:

ADD JUND to the list of decks that reanimator can't beat. I find myself questioning why anyone would play this deck. It's so bad...

Huh? Isn't Jund's only means of interaction only DRS/discard preboard and postboard graveyard hate in the form of surgical? I can understand the high variance with a deck like this but I can't see this being a bad matchup...

CovenantElite30
09-19-2016, 12:24 AM
Huh? Isn't Jund's only means of interaction only DRS/discard preboard and postboard graveyard hate in the form of surgical? I can understand the high variance with a deck like this but I can't see this being a bad matchup...
I think I just am having a bad run and being new to the deck doesn't help. I don't think my sideboarding is very optimal, any suggestions with my list would be greatly appreciated.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/32c1b51c73f4a3760736446e87666c13.jpg

Ultrab77
09-19-2016, 02:49 AM
Most played hate cards out of Death and Taxes: Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Relic of Progenitus, Phyrexian Revoker on Griselbrand, Thalia, etc.
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: none
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: Grafdigger's Cage

Most played hate cards out of Miracles: Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, Containment Priest, Top/Balance combo, Force of Will, Pithing Needle
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the play: Surgical Extraction, Force of Will (sometimes)
Relevant to a turn 1 combo on the draw: above, also Pithing Needle (sometimes)

TLDR Spending a turn cantripping isn't as good as having a turn 1 combo available if you need it. Right now, it is better to have more redundancy than counter backup, and to be a turn faster than a turn more protected.

If you have any idea how to contact that guy from the Bazaar of Moxen, let me know. I can't do anything unless he posts on here. I also don't know what the philosophy is behind the Sneak Attacks, or why there are only 3.

Report of the dude here (in French, post from "Mizouille"): http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14234&st=60

CovenantElite30
09-19-2016, 08:43 AM
Report of the dude here (in French, post from "Mizouille"): http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14234&st=60

Link's not working for me. If it's not too long could you post it translated in here?

Rampart
09-19-2016, 08:48 AM
Link's not working for me. If it's not too long could you post it translated in here?

When I had more free time and was playing on MTGO pretty regularly, I was struggling with Leyline too. I found that Stronghold Gambit was not the answer that I was looking for so, looking for options and quickly gave up on trying to cheat the big stuff into play, and ended up finding Phyrexian Obliterator as an answer to those decks. Obliterator works really well against Delver, Eldrazi and Shardless as he is cast-able and still a reasonable reanamiation target. I think i got 5 qty 5-0's with him in my sideboard but non of those lists got posted for any reason :rolleyes:

CovenantElite30
09-19-2016, 09:01 AM
When I had more free time and was playing on MTGO pretty regularly, I was struggling with Leyline too. I found that Stronghold Gambit was not the answer that I was looking for so, looking for options and quickly gave up on trying to cheat the big stuff into play, and ended up finding Phyrexian Obliterator as an answer to those decks. Obliterator works really well against Delver, Eldrazi and Shardless as he is cast-able and still a reasonable reanamiation target. I think i got 5 qty 5-0's with him in my sideboard but non of those lists got posted for any reason :rolleyes:

That sounds awesome! Do you mind posting your full 75? I want to play this deck at my local fnm this week but haven't found a version of the deck I like yet.

DNSolver
09-19-2016, 09:32 AM
That picture you posted is impossible to read, but after enough guessing I think this is your decklist:
13 land
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Unmask
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Griselbrand ?????????????????????
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Ashen Rider ??????????????????????

SB:
4 Reverent Silence
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Boseiju ?? not sold on this one
2 Faerie Macabre
no idea what the rest of the sideboard is.

It is probably a little bit of inexperience with the deck is my guess. A lot of the skill from the deck comes from knowing what hands are keepable and when you need to make your move against various decks. I consistently do better than any of the three people I have converted to this deck, largely because of experience. The deck doesn't necessarily play itself.

Changes I would recommend:
-1 Sire +1 hexproof/shroud creature such as Inkwell Leviathan / Archetype of Endurance or +1 land
-1 Ashen Rider +1 Griselbrand
SB:
-1 Blazing Archon (this really isn't very good)
-1 Boseiju
without information on the rest of the sideboard, I can't advise much on it. However, I could recommend trying Abrupt Decay and a Bayou maindeck or perhaps trying the Phyrexian Obliterators mentioned above. I might try those myself.

CovenantElite30
09-19-2016, 09:41 AM
That picture you posted is impossible to read, but after enough guessing I think this is your decklist:
13 land
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Unmask
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Griselbrand ?????????????????????
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Ashen Rider ??????????????????????

SB:
4 Reverent Silence
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Boseiju ?? not sold on this one
2 Faerie Macabre
no idea what the rest of the sideboard is.

It is probably a little bit of inexperience with the deck is my guess. A lot of the skill from the deck comes from knowing what hands are keepable and when you need to make your move against various decks. I consistently do better than any of the three people I have converted to this deck, largely because of experience. The deck doesn't necessarily play itself.

Changes I would recommend:
-1 Sire +1 hexproof/shroud creature such as Inkwell Leviathan / Archetype of Endurance or +1 land
-1 Ashen Rider +1 Griselbrand
SB:
-1 Blazing Archon (this really isn't very good)
-1 Boseiju
without information on the rest of the sideboard, I can't advise much on it. However, I could recommend trying Abrupt Decay and a Bayou maindeck or perhaps trying the Phyrexian Obliterators mentioned above. I might try those myself.


Main board is right. My sideboard is

SB:
4 Reverent Silence
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Boseiju
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Grave Titan
1 Tendrills
3 Pithing Needle

CovenantElite30
09-19-2016, 12:47 PM
Main board is right. My sideboard is

SB:
4 Reverent Silence
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Boseiju
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Grave Titan
1 Tendrills
3 Pithing Needle

How many Phyrexian Obliterator should I play in my side? What should I take out to fit them in?

DNSolver
09-19-2016, 01:00 PM
Tendrils, Boseiju, Archon makes 3 slots.

Why play Tendrils when you don't have Children of Korlis?

CovenantElite30
09-19-2016, 01:32 PM
Tendrils, Boseiju, Archon makes 3 slots.

Why play Tendrils when you don't have Children of Korlis?


I wanted another win con that didn't rely on the graveyard.

Apparently I'm a noob when it comes to the combo.

Does Tendrils with Korlis make a infinite combo?

DNSolver
09-19-2016, 01:38 PM
For information on Children of Korlis, go back and read the OP. Commenting on any thread on the internet assumes that you've read the OP.

DNSolver
09-20-2016, 11:43 AM
Same kind of version as the BoM list did well at an SCG IQ:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107665

Creatures (17)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Griselbrand

Lands (13)
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (30)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate

Sideboard

1 Blazing Archon
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Stronghold Gambit
4 Thoughtseize

Basic mountain seems dubious and likely better as a fetchland in general.

CovenantElite30
09-21-2016, 12:21 AM
Same kind of version as the BoM list did well at an SCG IQ:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107665

Creatures (17)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Griselbrand

Lands (13)
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (30)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate

Sideboard

1 Blazing Archon
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Stronghold Gambit
4 Thoughtseize

Basic mountain seems dubious and likely better as a fetchland in general.
I've been trying this version out online, I don't think it's as good as the unmasked version. I would be curious to see what Matthew Buttrey thought of the deck and what changes he would make.

Kraus
09-21-2016, 11:03 PM
I recently built this in paper (though I have only had a lot of practice with it, haven't played an event yet) and am running the list below. I am open to any ideas for it, and sideboard construction suggestions. My meta guaranteedly sees Miracles, Lands, and Storm, and everything else pops up as one-ofs as well.

Mana: 22
2x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

Creatures: 10
4x Griselbrand
4x Sire of Insanity
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Grave Titan

Disruption: 8
4x Thoughtseize
4x Unmask

Reanimation: 20
4x Faithless Looting
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead

DNSolver
09-21-2016, 11:33 PM
That seems like a great maindeck! 4 Sire plan is definitely an option, that's how it all started for me at least.

For sideboarding, we prefer a proactive plan of "what beats their hate?" So sideboards you see around here are pretty typical of this. We also play 4 of any card we think is good, because our deck has a hard time drawing the answers we sided in otherwise.

Recommended anti-hate cards:

Abrupt Decay - covers most hate cards in general

Reverent Silence - hits Leyline of the Void, which Abrupt Decay can't...

Other sideboard cards either break matchups considerably or are extra Entomb targets for sideboard games. I would recommend finding room for Tidespout Tyrant and Archetype of Endurance as alternative creatures for your sideboard, or possibly maindeck if you trim a Sire or two.

I hope to see you reporting back on your progress here!

KnightJay96
09-22-2016, 06:25 AM
Hey guys I've recently started playing Legacy with BR Reanimator and really enjoy the deck. I recently played a legacy event in Melbourne with the deck. There was 10 People at the event. I came 4th in the swiss, cut to top 4 and lost. (List Below)

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13493&d=279341&f=LE

I've got a Win a Duel Legacy tournament on Friday night. I'm wondering what I should change in the deck to better beat the field of Miracles, Death and Taxes, BURg Delver.

Should I main deck collective brutality?

Anyone got a updated list of the deck?

Ling
09-22-2016, 09:23 AM
Hi everyone!!

Just a question: do you see Sneak Attack a good sideboard option? I do not see why not but i´m sure i'm missing somethig

Thanks a lot!

DNSolver
09-22-2016, 11:24 AM
@KnightJay: Your list looks pretty good. Personally I find Blazing Archon unnecessary. If you want to beat Miracles, I would recommend being as fast as possible, perhaps playing a version with Simian Spirit Guide like the Bazaar of Moxen list to maximize the stupid effects of Chancellor.

Death and Taxes is a pretty easy matchup, especially if you are on a faster version.

Delver is always going to be a tough matchup.

@Ling: I think that Sneak Attack is fine in a version with more than 8 fast mana. So if you are playing Simian Spirit Guides, you probably have enough fast mana to reliably land Sneak Attack. I've never played it myself, though.

Kraus
09-22-2016, 12:36 PM
That seems like a great maindeck! 4 Sire plan is definitely an option, that's how it all started for me at least.

For sideboarding, we prefer a proactive plan of "what beats their hate?" So sideboards you see around here are pretty typical of this. We also play 4 of any card we think is good, because our deck has a hard time drawing the answers we sided in otherwise.

Recommended anti-hate cards:

Abrupt Decay - covers most hate cards in general

Reverent Silence - hits Leyline of the Void, which Abrupt Decay can't...

Other sideboard cards either break matchups considerably or are extra Entomb targets for sideboard games. I would recommend finding room for Tidespout Tyrant and Archetype of Endurance as alternative creatures for your sideboard, or possibly maindeck if you trim a Sire or two.

I hope to see you reporting back on your progress here!

Thanks, man!

I wrote up that other post while falling asleep, so I forgot to include the beginnings of my board. As you can see by the Bayou, I've embraced the green sideboard plan, and my board so far does contain 3x Abrupt Decay and 3x Reverent Silence, which is in line with your recommendations.

I'm considering cutting a Sire for the Arch-Pig, to turn off Karakas, and the Vensers that I see in Miracles decks. I also have an Inkwell Leviathan for them.

I'm hesitant to put in Stronghold Gambits, because the Miracles builds I see around here run a good amount of creatures, and even Lands brings in Tireless Trackers.

I am a fan of Pithing Needle, though.

DNSolver
09-22-2016, 01:12 PM
Here's the questions I asked myself before making a decision about Pithing Needle:

1) What matchups do I want it in? In those matchups, what am I naming?

2) Do those cards *always* do a ton against us? If so, what other cards / deckbuilding decisions could I play that answer those cards?

3) What am I cutting to bring in Needles? How many sideboard cards am I bringing in, and is that too many?

4) Is Needle really the best answer?

Pretty much what happened to me is that I wanted it in fewer and fewer matchups, preferred Decay in most I wanted it in, and then wanted to avoid bringing in more than 4 cards in any given matchup, just to keep consistency. Additionally, my Needles got countered / killed when I needed them to save me. So one day I just cut them. You are welcome to play them, though.

Kraus
09-22-2016, 01:47 PM
Here's the questions I asked myself before making a decision about Pithing Needle:

1) What matchups do I want it in? In those matchups, what am I naming?

2) Do those cards *always* do a ton against us? If so, what other cards / deckbuilding decisions could I play that answer those cards?

3) What am I cutting to bring in Needles? How many sideboard cards am I bringing in, and is that too many?

4) Is Needle really the best answer?

Pretty much what happened to me is that I wanted it in fewer and fewer matchups, preferred Decay in most I wanted it in, and then wanted to avoid bringing in more than 4 cards in any given matchup, just to keep consistency. Additionally, my Needles got countered / killed when I needed them to save me. So one day I just cut them. You are welcome to play them, though.

1. The match ups I've wanted it in are, so far, are Miracles and Lands (can you tell what my friends play?) to turn off Karakas and Maze of Ith. I suppose Arch-Pig solves that problem. Against Lands, I've wanted it to turn off the Marit Lage combo, but going fast could very well solve that too.

2. I think I answered 2 with considering Arch-Pig.

3. This has been a nightmare to think about every time.

4. Given that Arch-Pig protects itself in a way that Needle does not, Arch-Pig seems the better answer.

Kraus
09-23-2016, 10:03 AM
Forgive the double post, but how exactly does Keranos get around Containment Priest? There must be something simple I'm missing.

DNSolver
09-23-2016, 10:07 AM
Keranos isn't a creature when he comes into play from Reanimate / Exhume / Animate Dead. Containment Priest says, "Yo, you a creature?" and Keranos says, "Nope, just some dumb enchantment."

Kraus
09-23-2016, 10:50 AM
Keranos isn't a creature when he comes into play from Reanimate / Exhume / Animate Dead. Containment Priest says, "Yo, you a creature?" and Keranos says, "Nope, just some dumb enchantment."

What gives me pause is this ruling from Keranos's Gatherer page: 4/26/2014 The type-changing ability that can make the God not be a creature functions only on the battlefield. It’s always a creature card in other zones, regardless of your devotion to its color.

If it never reaches the battlefield, it never stops being a creature, if I'm understanding that ruling correctly.

Edit:

To make my line of though crystal clear:

You cast the reanimation spell. The game instructs us to change the zone he's in from the graveyard to the battlefield. Containment Priest sees "Creature" on his type line, and he is put into exile instead.

He'd have to hit the battlefield for the devotion ability to start working and remove "Creature" from his type line. If Containment Priest's ability were triggered, instead of a replacement ability, I see how Keranos would stay on the battlefield. But since he never even reaches the battlefield to lose "Creature", I still am not seeing how he gets around Priest.

Like I said, I swear there must be something I'm missing if this works.

Edit 2: Okay, it's rule 614.12 that I wasn't aware of.

splorf
09-23-2016, 11:37 PM
Did someone use Collective Brutality? I mean, it appears in more lists recently and nobody reports. Did you even try it?

CovenantElite30
09-24-2016, 12:48 AM
Just a quick post. Went 3-0 and ID round 4 with the other 3-0 guy. How of the 3 matches I played didn't lose a game. Played ANT round 1 and 2. Played against traditional reanimator round 3. I will say the BRx version is so good against ANT, they literally couldn't do anything especially if I had a Chancellor of the Annex in my opening hand. Also I will say I think this version of reanimator is favored against the traditional version. Overall very happy with the deck.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

DNSolver
09-24-2016, 12:29 PM
Just a quick post. Went 3-0 and ID round 4 with the other 3-0 guy. How of the 3 matches I played didn't lose a game. Played ANT round 1 and 2. Played against traditional reanimator round 3. I will say the BRx version is so good against ANT, they literally couldn't do anything especially if I had a Chancellor of the Annex in my opening hand. Also I will say I think this version of reanimator is favored against the traditional version. Overall very happy with the deck.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

Yeah, we are at least a whole turn faster than storm in G1. In post-board games you can bring in Stronghold Gambit if you have them, but the matchup is already so favorable. UB Reanimator is a real mess to play vs. because it's a mirror match and disgusting, but having access to Faerie Macabre is the real deal.

NegatorITA
09-29-2016, 05:43 PM
hey guys, played this deck for a while long a go, made a top with it the second time I played it I think, here was the decklist I used at time:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19666&iddeck=149679

The peculiarity I like to run is to cut one animate dead for an unburial rites:
While very rare, you could entomb it and get out tight spots, it's bound to happen that at times you topdeck entomb instead of a reanimation spell, so why not have an out?

After meddling with the deck a little I remember I had switched to the Izzet charm Ubrg version with terrible results, it was too slow for the meta, then I left for works until my recent comeback, which is... now.

During the summer I build the deck again, and here I am with a few questions:

How do people like collective brutality? I think it was the missing card but I wouldn't know what to cut!

I've recently seen a lot of variation of the deck, while the core may usually be the same, the creatures keep changing:
Maybe the new favourite set really is the one with 4 chancellor 4 grisel 2 sires? that looks solid on paper!
Isn't the Djin still too slow to act on his own? we cantrip less than the blue version, so I wonder if Inkwell or Ashen rider aren't better solutions in that slot.

The sideboard is always a mess, I agree that 4 decay are a must, I'd only run three because I have white for wear/tear, which doesn't solve DRS but solves leyline.

I've also seen some versions running Show and tell + sol lands:
While I've acquired Show and Tell, are sol lands still a must? also has Styrfo said in the izzet charm thread, isn't it better to focus on solving their answer, while keep going with our plan, rather than trying to assemble both show + one specific creature (without cantrip), specially when containement priest still answer both plans?

Peace :D

Kraus
09-30-2016, 12:42 PM
How do people like collective brutality? I think it was the missing card but I wouldn't know what to cut!


I've seen lists where one Thoughtseize and one Unmask were cut for two Collective Brutality.

NegatorITA
09-30-2016, 05:27 PM
I've seen lists where one Thoughtseize and one Unmask were cut for two Collective Brutality.

that would have been probably the only cut I'd have made myself too, yet I wonder if it's really worthy

R3ndr0c
10-01-2016, 04:38 AM
I'm new to this deck, but it seems a lot of lists have no answer to Grafdigger's Cage and other graveyard hate. I think Ancient Grudge, if not Abrupt Decay, should be in the sideboard.

CovenantElite30
10-01-2016, 07:46 AM
I'm new to this deck, but it seems a lot of lists have no answer to Grafdigger's Cage and other graveyard hate. I think Ancient Grudge, if not Abrupt Decay, should be in the sideboard.
This is a turn 1 deck and generally your out before they can play it if your on the play. Also in generally cards like Phyrexian Obliterator are played in the sideboard so you can hard cast them on turn 2.

R3ndr0c
10-01-2016, 03:55 PM
Well I haven't seen single list doing that, and it's seems pretty loose. Running a Bayou with some Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence seems ok, but being able to get the Bayou for Silence is a stretch, although it can be hardcast. Also kills Animate Dead. The deck that did well at the SCG tourney has only 1 answer to RIP or Gravediggers, or other graveyard hate; turn 1 thoughtsieze. This just seems bad. Might as well board cards that are good against the cards that hose this deck.

DNSolver
10-02-2016, 12:34 PM
Abrupt Decay should be in all sideboards for this deck IMO, unless you have a sideboard plan that can beat one-mana artifact hate such as Grafdigger's Cage as well as Deathrite Shaman. That's usually my criteria for consideration in the sideboard.

For example, a Young Pyromancer sideboard plan beats Gradigger's Cage, but Deathrite Shaman blocks tokens forever and Swords to Plowshares is being kept in by all decks that have it. So as a sideboard plan its okay, but not great. And if you were going to have it as a sideboard plan, you should have removal spells coming in to deal with blockers and discard staying in to take Swords.

On an unrelated note, the number of Containment Priests running around has been greatly decreased recently, with people preferring Surgical Extraction. Keranos is therefore not a good sideboard option at the moment.

NegatorITA
10-02-2016, 05:33 PM
Abrupt Decay should be in all sideboards for this deck IMO, unless you have a sideboard plan that can beat one-mana artifact hate such as Grafdigger's Cage as well as Deathrite Shaman. That's usually my criteria for consideration in the sideboard.

For example, a Young Pyromancer sideboard plan beats Gradigger's Cage, but Deathrite Shaman blocks tokens forever and Swords to Plowshares is being kept in by all decks that have it. So as a sideboard plan its okay, but not great. And if you were going to have it as a sideboard plan, you should have removal spells coming in to deal with blockers and discard staying in to take Swords.

On an unrelated note, the number of Containment Priests running around has been greatly decreased recently, with people preferring Surgical Extraction. Keranos is therefore not a good sideboard option at the moment.

I see you still don't run collective brutality DNSolver?

DNSolver
10-02-2016, 10:07 PM
I haven't gotten a chance to play the deck much, but the version I have put together (no testing) is the Bazaar of Moxen list with a redone creature suite and sideboard:

Maindeck Changes:
-2 Sire of Insanity +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria and +1 Archetype of Endurance

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Reverent Silence
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Stronghold Gambit / Empty the Pits

R3ndr0c
10-02-2016, 10:32 PM
Ancient grudge is easer on the mana, but it doesn't deal with RIP

Can someone tell me how and when they side cards?

angelvaleroso
10-09-2016, 01:31 AM
I just took down a Legacy IQ with the following list:

Creatures:17
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Spells:30
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
2 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume

Lands:13
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:15
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Thoughtseize
3 Blood Moon
3 Sneak Attack

Round 1 vs Lands:
Game 1: I get hit with a Marit Liege on Turn 3.
Game 2: I keep a no land hand. Turn 1 Griselbrand. Opponent plays his 1 of Karakas and bounces. I draw 7. Draw for turn. Pitch SSG for Looting. No land. Pitch SSG for Neonate. Sac. No Lands. I lose 2 turns later. 0-1

Round 2 vs Shardless BUG
Game 1: Turn 1 Sire of Insanity. Opponent scoops.
Game 2: Turn 2 Blood Moon. Turn 3, Reanimate Griselbrand. Opponent scoops following Turn. 1-1

Round 3 vs Elves:
Game 1: Turn 1 Sire of Insanity. Move to game 2.
Game 2: Cabal Therapy naming Reanimate. Surgical your Reanimate. Follows up with a Deathrite and I never get back in it.
Game 3: Turn 1 Iona naming Green. 2-1

Round 4: vs Turbo Depths
Game 1: Turn 1 Sire of Insanity
Game 2: He Crop rotated to Bojuka Bog and got my Blazing Archon. Marit Liege hits me on Turn 4.
Game 3: I HARD CAST a Sire of Insanity on Turn 1. 3-1

Round 5: vs Lands
Game 1: Reveal 2 Chancellors. I reanimated Griseldaddy on Turn 2. Then two Chancellors on the following Turn locked it up.
Game 2: He's about to Marit Liege on Turn 3 so I reanimate a Blazing Archon. He Gambles for Punishing Fire and slowly burns me. I eventually reanimate a Iona for red. We draw go for about 13-15 turns; I wasn't swinging because he could Maze of Ith or create and block with a 20/20. I eventually draw Blood Moon and swing for two turns. 4-1

Round 6: ID 4-1-1

Top 8 QF vs Grixis Control:
Game 1: I keep a no land hand. Get a Sire of Insanity on turn 3. He scoops.
Game 2: He plays Underground Sea and pass. I turn 1 Blood Moon him. Get a Griselbrand about two turns later and he concedes.

Top 4 SF vs Miracles
Game 1: land, Loot, pitch GBrand. Petal, cast ritual, animate dead targeting G-Daddy. He FoWs it. I then cast Reanimate on GB. He scoops two turns later.
Game 2: On the draw, I reveal two Chancellors. On my turn, I pitch Iona to hand size. My following Turn I reanimate it and he has no response. I name white. He draws for Turn and scoops.

Finals vs ANT: Opponent concedes to me but we play one game for fun.
Game 1: Opponent G Probes, plays an Underground Sea, Ponder, passes.
My turn 1: land, dark ritual, entomb for Sire of Insanity, animate dead the Sire, dump hands, pass. My opponent laughs out loud, picks up his cards and is grateful that we didn't actually play.

Overall, the deck was super degenerate lol You can be faster than graveyard hate and that was the initial appeal to playing it. Not sure if I'll play it again but I had a blast playing it all day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DNSolver
10-09-2016, 10:41 PM
Congratulations on your finish! Glad to see the deck continuing to put up results. Did you have any testing with this deck before the IQ or did you just pick up the Bazaar of Moxen list?

It seems like you played four favorable matchups during the swiss, which helps. Did you face any Surgical Extractions? Decks packing those are pretty tough unless you have Chancellor and a turn 1 on the play.

Is Blood Moon really that good? It seems like you boarded it in a lot, and it just resolved against Grixis Control and Shardless BUG? I am very surprised by that. It seems good against Deathrite Shaman decks that don't start by fetching basic forest.

R3ndr0c
10-10-2016, 08:00 AM
@angelvelaroso

can you give a comprehensive instructions on how to sideboard?? I'm really not sure what to take out with this deck.

angelvaleroso
10-10-2016, 05:07 PM
@angelvelaroso

can you give a comprehensive instructions on how to sideboard?? I'm really not sure what to take out with this deck.

I can explain the sideboarding for the decks I played against and hopefully that helps.

Lands & Turbo Depths:
+ 3 Blood Moon, Blazing Archon, Iona
- 1 Griselbrand, 1 Sire, 2 Animate Dead, 1 Neonate
Blood Moon is great; Archon stops Marit Liege; Iona on green, early, slows them down tremendously. Karakas makes GBrand a little weak; 1 Sire is enough; Animate Dead can be Abrupt Decayed.

Shardless BUG:
+ 3 Blood Moon // 2-3 Sneak Attack
- 1 Griselbrand, 1 Sire, 1 Animate Dead // 2 Animate Dead, 1 Neonate
You can usually catch them with Blood Moon; Sneak Attacks are only really needed if you lost the first game. Less Griselbrands make Surgical less effective; 1 Sire is enough; Animate Dead can be Abrupt Decayed.

Elves:
+ 1 Elesh Norn; Iona, Blazing Archon
- 1 Griselbrand; Tidespout Tyrant; 1 Sire
You're just siding in better reanimation targets.

Grixis Control:
+ 3 Blood Moon
- 1 Griselbrand; 1 Sire; 1 Neonate
Blood Moon is REALLY good. It almost doesn't matter what you take out as long as you can Blood Moon them quickly.

Miracles:
+ Iona, 2 Thoughtseize // If you lost, + Iona; 3 Sneak Attack
- 1 Griselbrand; 1 Sire; 1 Neonate // If you lost, - 1 more Neonate
Be faster than their graveyard hate

ANT:
+ Iona, 4 Thoughtseize // If you suspect Empty the Warrens, + Elesh Norn, as well
- Tidespout; 2 Griselbrand; 2 Collective Brutality // - 1 Neonate
You're faster and can stop them cold. Iona naming black only leaves their outs as Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor. Collective Brutalities are upgraded to Thoughtseizes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

angelvaleroso
10-10-2016, 05:15 PM
Congratulations on your finish! Glad to see the deck continuing to put up results. Did you have any testing with this deck before the IQ or did you just pick up the Bazaar of Moxen list?

It seems like you played four favorable matchups during the swiss, which helps. Did you face any Surgical Extractions? Decks packing those are pretty tough unless you have Chancellor and a turn 1 on the play.

Is Blood Moon really that good? It seems like you boarded it in a lot, and it just resolved against Grixis Control and Shardless BUG? I am very surprised by that. It seems good against Deathrite Shaman decks that don't start by fetching basic forest.

I played the deck for about a week on MTGO prior to the event.

Blood Moon was great. It's surprising how many decks are shut down by it. Additionally, it gives you another game plan your opponent must fight over.

My game plan to beat Surgical was Chancellor triggers, removing at least 1-2 Griselbrand (lessen the effect), prioritizing the "one of" targets (because if it's Extracted, I still have more options), and trying to make sure I have two different targets while using Exhume.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CabalTherapy
10-11-2016, 06:24 PM
Played this deck for the first time tonight to troll the local guys a bit; took the BOM list with -1 Sire/ +1 Iona main and a different SB.

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt (performed very well)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Disenchant
2 Thoughtseize
1 Taiga
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast

SB felt good, I brought in all cards in 4 rounds. Played to a mediocre 2-2. I was kind of unlucky is some situations; two lootins in a row failed to draw me
anything of relevance to win the game for example. I also had some heavy mulligans but managed to win against Miracles in game3 with mull to 4 and then reanimating
Iona for W into GG.

I played the UB classic Reanimator a few times but was unimpressed by its performance all in all. In addition I used to grind with TinFis a bit but the deck is too
incosistent and made me ragequit sometimes. Thus, this is the third Reanimator variant I am trying and I kind of like it; although I don't know why.

Quentin Coldman
10-12-2016, 05:20 AM
Wear // Tear is always better than Disenchant. And Bolt is imo very bad, unless u play Young Pyromancer. If u want Removal play Abrupt Decay (u already splash green) or Sudden Shock (counterproof). And pls Bayou over Taiga.

Rocco111
10-12-2016, 05:50 AM
@CabalTherapy
Can you please give us situations where Lightning Bolt performed well for you?

Regarding the SB choice, I am sold on Quentin feedback:
- Considering his SB options, I cannot see why Bayou is superior to Taiga. The deck runs Firestorm, Neonate, Faithless Looting, Blood Moon... So red source are valuable too. Not too mention that the choice of taking Taiga over Bayou has no incidence over the choice of fetchlands (we'll always play a set of B.Mires anyways). The only pro I see is a bluff T1 if you land Bayou over Taiga >>> your opponent can be pretty sure you are running Decay. So thinking even further, actually, it'd be better to show Taiga which might have the opposite effect ('Dude is not playing Decay' while you do/can).
- Wear//Tear, yes, it is better. But like for Disenchant, it means relying on Petal to cast it. So either way, meh.

Quentin Coldman
10-12-2016, 06:03 AM
I play this kind of deck now for nearly 2 years in different variants and always hated lands that don't give u black mana. In lists With Neonate basic Mountain might be an option, but u have 2-4 Spirit Guides and 4 Badlands and black is what u need for turn 1 action. We're keeping very often a 1 land hand and non black scource is normally and auto mull. Then add a second non black land to the manabase is imo a nogo. U can cut the basic Mountain to play a Taiga or add a Bayou, but not play a Taiga and a Mountain just my opinion. I always liked to play a single Scrubland + 3 Wear // Tear in the board because of Eldrazi + Aggro Loam (both DTB in Germany) and Wear // Tear kills Chalice + Leyline of the Void in one move. Hornestly I'm not a fan of this bazaar of moxen Liste, just 2 Brutality Main and no Thoughtseize, no Unmask is just not mine. Sure it might work, but in my eyes it's very much gambling.

Excuse my english I'm not a native speaker.

Rocco111
10-12-2016, 06:18 AM
Makes sense.

Would you mind sharing your list?

I also have been running the deck for a while and tbh, playing with scrubland sounds like a neat idea...

Quentin Coldman
10-12-2016, 07:06 AM
At the moment I play this:

//Lands [13]
7 Fetchies
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland

//Creatures [12]
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Simian Spirit Guide

//Spells [35]
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
4 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask
1 Collective Brutality

//Sideboard [15]
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Ashen Rider
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
3 Wear // Tear

Normally I play 4 Unmask, but atm I'm testing Collective Brutality instead of the fourth. Also tried 4c Version for Decays was also not bad, but I'd never play without Wear // Tear.

CabalTherapy
10-12-2016, 02:08 PM
Wear // Tear is always better than Disenchant. And Bolt is imo very bad, unless u play Young Pyromancer. If u want Removal play Abrupt Decay (u already splash green) or Sudden Shock (counterproof). And pls Bayou over Taiga.

My bad, wasn't Disenchant obviously but Naturalize. Bayou was main. I know what I do. Edit for longer answer: It makes sense to cast G spells better with two green duals.
Bolt was quite good against Aggro Loam where I was able to hit Shaman and Ooze with it. I also brought it against Elves and killed a turn 1 Shaman when I didn't have a fatty next time.

Quentin Coldman
10-13-2016, 06:05 AM
Okay now things are more clear to me, thx.

Questions:

1. When u board in the Taiga, are u boarding out the basic Mountain?

2. Don't u think Decay is the better card than Bolt? For example Bolt vs Aggro Loam does nothing if he has the Chalice. With 2 green sources and 4 Petals it's definitly not a problem. Sure Bolt is easier to cast and can come Turn 1 but Decks like Grixis Delver (Shaman) or Blade (Containment Priest) can counter ur Bolt. Also it's nice to hit a Lili, random Cage or something with ur Decay. Never tested the Bolts and never really wanted it (just that 1 time I got kicked by a single Aven Mindcensor xD), if I compare Bolt to Decay in ur build, I'd go for Decay.

.Ix
10-13-2016, 07:43 AM
So I've noticed that most of the placing lists have skipped the Children/Tendrils kill. Why is that?

Rocco111
10-13-2016, 07:47 AM
Mainly because it is slightly overkill.

I went back to it some weeks ago and tbh, even though it did feel good to Tendrils my opponent T1, I felt that landing Griselbrand and drawing 7 or 14 is already enough to win the game.
Not playing the storm combo frees 2 slots which can be put to good/better use.

CabalTherapy
10-13-2016, 08:59 AM
Okay now things are more clear to me, thx.

Questions:

1. When u board in the Taiga, are u boarding out the basic Mountain?

2. Don't u think Decay is the better card than Bolt? For example Bolt vs Aggro Loam does nothing if he has the Chalice. With 2 green sources and 4 Petals it's definitly not a problem. Sure Bolt is easier to cast and can come Turn 1 but Decks like Grixis Delver (Shaman) or Blade (Containment Priest) can counter ur Bolt. Also it's nice to hit a Lili, random Cage or something with ur Decay. Never tested the Bolts and never really wanted it (just that 1 time I got kicked by a single Aven Mindcensor xD), if I compare Bolt to Decay in ur build, I'd go for Decay.

1. No, I go up to 14 lands. I have been playing lot of decks with 12-15 lands (Dredge, TinFins, Reanimator, ANT, TES (not really, since it's bad)) and the difference between 13 and 14 can be decisive sometimes. I want to be able to make landdrops, at least two.

2. It depends on the situation. I'd bring in both to fight Delver.decs for example because then I have Bolt to take care of their clock/Shaman and Decay doing the same + it's able to remove Cage or whatever they want to play. Sure, Decay hits more targets and especially it deals with the more important ones as you mentioned. Since I played it for the first time on Tuesday I 've built a rather random SB and thought about Bolt being a great way to deal with annoying stuff. As an ANT player I sometimes wish to have Bolt in my hand to basically timewalk my opponent. I am not sure if Bolt is that great though but it looked good on paper and played out nicely; at least in this one tournament.

Quentin Coldman
10-13-2016, 09:14 AM
1. No, I go up to 14 lands. I have been playing lot of decks with 12-15 lands (Dredge, TinFins, Reanimator, ANT, TES (not really, since it's bad)) and the difference between 13 and 14 can be decisive sometimes. I want to be able to make landdrops, at least two.


I kinda like this idea, I'll try it out next time to play the splashdual in the sideboard and add a basic Mountain to the main. Thx 4 your thoughts :)

michaelslee54
10-13-2016, 04:02 PM
Hi guys, I'm new to legacy in general and have been following the thread. It seems more and more decks are running MD Chancellors and was wondering if I should incorporate them as well. I only have 2 at the moment and will soon be getting the full playset. Also I'm debating whether to try this out at SCG Baltimore in November vs. playing Infect (which seems more consistent?).

Here's the build I've been testing-

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/491574#paper

I'm most unsure of when to bring in the Tyrant. I like having a non-legendary MD option and am currently trying out 2 collective brutalities instead of the full 4 thoughtseizes and unmasks.

Any tips, tweaks, and experiences welcome!

CabalTherapy
10-13-2016, 04:41 PM
I kinda like this idea, I'll try it out next time to play the splashdual in the sideboard and add a basic Mountain to the main. Thx 4 your thoughts :)

I hope it works for you as well. I approach things always from an ANT perspective where I want to still be able to play mtg after my opponent played their hate cards. A solid manabase, even in
this kind of deck, should be at least one of the keys to win such a game. But, keep in mind, I only played a couple of rounds with it against real opponents and goldfished at home.

xix
10-13-2016, 09:06 PM
Been playing a mix of DNSolvers old list and the BOM list. Here's what I have been running, and it has been winning, but that doesn't mean im set on which is better.

-2 thoughtseize
-children - lost a game where this could have been a thing just entomb/reanimate gain the life to live even without tendrils its very useful.
-tendrils
+ 2 SSG - keep switching between full 4 and just 2. I feel like 2 is enough for MD, and going to full 4 when I side in moon/sneak attacks is where I want to be

chrome mox - unsure if I want this without the tendrils/children, Also lets me do something like pitch annex for a wear//tear if i was running one.
-- currently running 61 cards mainboard with chrome mox as #61, should trim maybe but it felt fine


Reanimate targets:
4 GB
4 Annex - never giving this up again, too useful
1 iona - too good to not keep in md
1 sire - feels correct to keep 1
1 endurance - could also be tidespout/inkwell

Land:
2 badlands
1 bayou
2 swamp
4 delta
4 mire

Sideboard
2 SSG
1 Faerie Macabre -I was only person on graveyard should have just cut this for the night
1 Tidespout
1 Inkwell Leviathan - with endurance in MD I have debated droping this.
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Blood Moon - should be 3, but I only own 2
1 Blazing Archon
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sneak Attack

Other thoughts were wear//tear if mox is still in deck. and grave titan over GB 4, mainly because of the extreme amount of surgical and DNT/eldrazi in the meta

On Blood Moon/Sneak Attack
Both felt good, don't know if you really need both yet.

Tonight:
0-2 Vs storm, game 1 on draw mull into ok hand, he has 2x cabal into duress, game 2 mull into 2xSSG, faithless,dark ritual, GB, reanimate, was super greedy kept scry showed faithless looting, did 2 faithless looting no land, turn 2 no land, he comboed off, we both laughed, he kept a no land lotus petal hand that was horrible that drew into greatness off a ponder shuffle.

2-1 vs eldrazi game 1 on draw mull to 5, turn 1 animate dead gb, turn 3 exhume annex through thorn of amethyst. game 2 he opened up turn 1 cage turn 2 chalice on 1, proceeded to drop containment priests and a thalia onto game 3, game 3, turn 1 looting, annex counters his first play, turn 2 gb, turn 3 blood moon he scoops.

0-2 vs shardless bug game 1 on draw (didnt win a roll all night) mull to 6, he turn 1 deathright shaman, turn 2 thoughtseize, i reanimate gb, he drops liliana i draw 14 that miss hard, setup with looting for next turn, he drops shardless into second deathrite shaman, i draw reanimate useless he just can eat in response. stick another Gb, he drops another liliana, game 2, mull to 6, turn 1 chrome mox lotus petal setting up for turn 2, he drops deathrite, turn 2 i stick GB, he drops another shaman, attack gain 6 draw 14, no other reanimation affects just creatures/land(not fetch) and faithless looting. I draw 7 more. I play blood moon (he responds by eating a faithless looting play bayou, Pass he deathrites to liliana bye bye gb. I cast another faithless looting nothing, he uses the lands that are in graveyard to shardless into baleful/goyf. (all my entomb/reanimation was playing lets hug at the bottom rng gods didn't have my back)

Still had fun, picked up sneak attack 2/3 right before the night so SB changed to what it is above, rng hated me, but on the fun games after rounds I went 5-1.


Edit: was for the round data etc

R3ndr0c
10-16-2016, 12:03 PM
So I've played this deck a bunch and I think it's garbage. Inconsistent hands, and it loses to counterspells and Deathrite Shaman. It looks great when you get a turn 1 win, but that's not common enough.

Rocco111
10-16-2016, 12:12 PM
LOL
Now that was some useful feedback. :laugh:

DNSolver
10-16-2016, 08:58 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108470

Congratulations to Francisco Rodriguez at giving them the business!

@R3ndr0c
This deck is not inconsistent. In fact, counterspell + turn 1 Deathrite out of an opponent's deck is probably less likely than a turn 1 from this deck. This deck is certainly miserable to play against. That doesn't mean it's not good. You have to remember that roughly half the format simply cannot consistently handle what this deck presents. Further, if you are finding hands "inconsistent," you are likely not mulliganing aggressively enough in the proper matchups.

Kraus
10-17-2016, 07:43 AM
I've been wondering; Is there any real advantage to having 6 fetches and 4 Badlands vs 8 fetches and 2 Badlands?

DNSolver
10-17-2016, 08:39 AM
As far as Legacy as a format goes, more duals are better against Stifle while giving you more things to fetch while being Wastelanded, while more fetches plays around Rishadan Port, Wasteland, and any other effect where you want to get your basics, such as Back to Basics or Blood Moon. Very few of these cards do anything against us in the first place, so there's not much of a difference besides price / availability. I prefer having more fetches so that I can get 2 basics against Delver decks. However, I can see a point with so many red cards in the deck where you start wanting a 3rd and 4th Badlands. I definitely would never play the basic mountain that I've been seeing in the turbo Chancellor / Insolent Neonate decklists.

Quentin Coldman
10-17-2016, 09:23 AM
More Fetchies are also useful when u play a splash for Sideboard, I always used to play 7 Fetchies, 3 Badlands, 2 Swamp, 1 Splashdual and it felt pretty good.

jwl3gg
10-17-2016, 11:11 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108470

Congratulations to Francisco Rodriguez at giving them the business!

@R3ndr0c
This deck is not inconsistent. In fact, counterspell + turn 1 Deathrite out of an opponent's deck is probably less likely than a turn 1 from this deck. This deck is certainly miserable to play against. That doesn't mean it's not good. You have to remember that roughly half the format simply cannot consistently handle what this deck presents. Further, if you are finding hands "inconsistent," you are likely not mulliganing aggressively enough in the proper matchups.
Awesome, I'm actually getting back into Legacy, previously played Merfolk and D&T, and chose his list. I probably need an archetype of endurance in my 75, tons of Karakas in my meta.

Mizouille
10-18-2016, 07:38 AM
Hi ! I m the guy which made top 8 in BOM Paris with dindon deck.

Me and a friend discovered the deck just fews days before the event. After some creasy games against non blue decks, we choosen to play it for fun and the surprising consistence of kill t1 or 2 !!

Friday trial, we made good results with 4-2 for me and 5-1 for my friend. Loosing only on missplay... So at the end of the day, we were pretty impressed by the deck and confident for the next.
Saturday main event, 8-1 for me and 7-2 for my friend which just missed the top8. Lot of people didn t know the deck and how to optimize plays. A bad choice could be critical against this deck. I think it s mainly due to that we managed both a good result.
Sunday, I did an other trial with 4-1.

Friday, i played 2 firestorm instead of neonate. Never draw, so i chosen to play neonate for the main event (draw spell which could be usefull against liliana and dredge). Never draw again and i think it s pretty useless. Thoughtseize was so powerfull in each matchs i chosen to play 2 thoughtseize md for the sunday trial.
Since, i play tested a little the deck and i think play more collective brutality main deck because it s so usefull (kill deathrite & co, permit to discard a creature with calice 1 on the board, permit to discard a creature without take a counterspell).

I never test the unmask version. Looks pretty good although slowly. Discard is so impactfull ! But the deck has so much pressure on the hand because of faithless looting mainly and the agressive mulligans than I m not fan to play with an other spell wich make card disavantage. And remove a black spell sound like a very big constrain. After is not the same game plan... It could be good for me to spend time to test the unsmak version.

For the moment I play test a list closed to the BOM list. But Miracle and grixis are so difficult i don t think play the deck again.
I tested different sideboard options against miracle: Full sneak & show without reanimation spell, it was horrible ! I tested also with decay and i was very disapointed by it. They don t match very well with a fast reanimation plan. Certainly better in unmask version. For the moment I prefere keep a fast reanimation plan with 5-7 discards and 2-3 sneak attack post side but against a strong player and a good sideboard it s looks pretty weak.
Against grixis, brutality looks good. I don t side in blood moon in this match up because of deathrite but maybe it could be fine to have access to blood moon to blow up the oponent in a good spot.

I didn t test wear/tear, sounds good ! Specialy against eldrazi. I will test it.

Sorry for my english, it s not my... :)

tchussly

splorf
10-19-2016, 01:29 AM
This is the list I'm testing atm.

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage

//Spells
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality

//Creatures
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Demon of Dark Schemes

//Sideboard
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
3 Master of the Feast
3 Pyroblast
4 Wear // Tear
2 Ghost Quarter

Some comments on the odd choices:

Dakmor Salvage: Although pretty slow sometimes I felt like it would be useful to have access to mana out of the yard by excess Entombs. Plus it even dredges some fatties. Not sold on it, but during testing it was neither bad nor good. At least it's another card I don't mind to discard.

Cabal Therapy: With 4 TS and 3 Collective Brutality it's sometimes possible to 2-for-1. Admittedly not very often, but theoretically. :) Still testing.

Demon of Dark Schemes: Hardcastable, non-legendary Elesh Norn light. During testing it was good against creature based decks like D&T. It's not very likely to abuse the 2nd ability, but at least it fits the theme. Not sold on it, but during testing it performed not bad.

Ghost Quarter: Mostly a budget choice, but sometimes it's a straight forward Strip Mine. There are not that many Basics around and the extra mana is useful when i had to take the hardcast route.
Master of the Feast: The oddest of them all. Haven't casted it a single time, but I'm pretty sure no one tested it so far, because it seems to be so bad. But I really want to know, if it's possible to steal games with it. Probably not, but I'm a believer. :D

What do you think? I'll let you know what testing provides. :)

Mizouille
10-19-2016, 03:45 AM
hi, some comments about your choice :)

. dakmor salvage: could be fine to discard it with looting and after have acces to a land drop when you want. But horrible to play it t1 or 2 (and if destroyed by wasteland...).

. cabal therapy: not very good if it s the only discard spell in your hand (specially t1 on the play).

. Demon dark of shemes: Better than elesh against d&t but not against elves, infect, eldrazi, shardless...

. Master of the feat: very cheap ! But some time chancellor of the annex t1 or t2 is not enough, so with free draws for the opponent... not sure than Master alone would be enought. Obliterator sounds good for a slot like that.

. Ghost quarter: I don t see against what you want play it. Eldrazi maybe ? Wasteland is a very good card in agro/tempo deck when you have the board, not in combo deck where you don t want loose a land drop. If it s against karakas, no need. It s not a big issue with griselbrand and all non legendary creatures we have.

Your list looks like a hybride between dindon rea and unsmak rea. I m not sure that 14 lands without simian spirit guide will be enought. In dindon rea, simian is the last card I want cut. They are essential for kill t1 or t2 (which is the main reason to play the deck for me).

Quentin Coldman
10-19-2016, 04:43 AM
I think the demon looks pretty nice (in the Sideboard), but in most cases Elesh is better. But I'd say give it a try.

Darkmore Salvage is unplayable. We want to be fast and tapped lands cost 1 Turn what could make the difference between winning and loosing. I'd play another Badlands or Fetchie. 14 Lands without Simian Spirit Guide is definitly playable, I also used to play it like this.

Cabal Therapy: Would cut it for a fourth Animate Dead. 4 Thoughtseize + 3 Brutality is enough.

Ghost Quarter: Definitly no need for it. Cut gives u another 2 slots 4 useful stuff. If u fear Karakas/Maze play Pithing Needle. Also handels Deathrite Shaman, Lili and stuff.

Master of the Feast: Like Mizouille said Phyrexian Obliterator is the better choice. Especially against Delver this guy's a beast.

Kraus
10-19-2016, 08:06 AM
Your list looks like a hybride between dindon rea and unsmak rea.

Dindon, as in the French word for "turkey"?

Rocco111
10-19-2016, 08:33 AM
Dindon, as in the French word for "turkey"?

Yup, Dindon being the French dude who created this version of deck in the first place, working on it with Lejay. We are talking about the version using 12 mana accelerators and Griselbrand + Sire of Insanity as main (but not only) reanimation targets.

gRR!!
10-19-2016, 08:35 AM
Hey there folks,

I'm starting to play B/R Reanimator and I'm having lots of fun with it (still no great results, but I think that's because I'm the worst Magic player ever born). Regarding the idea of cheap, castable creatures in the side to skip graveyard hate, what about Avatar of Discord? It has a remarkable body and its drawback could even be favorable to us. On the other side, its CMC makes it vulnerable to Decays and its toughness makes it easily bolted. Just my two cents.

jwl3gg
10-19-2016, 01:40 PM
Hi ! I m the guy which made top 8 in BOM Paris with dindon deck.

Me and a friend discovered the deck just fews days before the event. After some creasy games against non blue decks, we choosen to play it for fun and the surprising consistence of kill t1 or 2 !!

Friday trial, we made good results with 4-2 for me and 5-1 for my friend. Loosing only on missplay... So at the end of the day, we were pretty impressed by the deck and confident for the next.
Saturday main event, 8-1 for me and 7-2 for my friend which just missed the top8. Lot of people didn t know the deck and how to optimize plays. A bad choice could be critical against this deck. I think it s mainly due to that we managed both a good result.
Sunday, I did an other trial with 4-1.

Friday, i played 2 firestorm instead of neonate. Never draw, so i chosen to play neonate for the main event (draw spell which could be usefull against liliana and dredge). Never draw again and i think it s pretty useless. Thoughtseize was so powerfull in each matchs i chosen to play 2 thoughtseize md for the sunday trial.
Since, i play tested a little the deck and i think play more collective brutality main deck because it s so usefull (kill deathrite & co, permit to discard a creature with calice 1 on the board, permit to discard a creature without take a counterspell).

I never test the unmask version. Looks pretty good although slowly. Discard is so impactfull ! But the deck has so much pressure on the hand because of faithless looting mainly and the agressive mulligans than I m not fan to play with an other spell wich make card disavantage. And remove a black spell sound like a very big constrain. After is not the same game plan... It could be good for me to spend time to test the unsmak version.

For the moment I play test a list closed to the BOM list. But Miracle and grixis are so difficult i don t think play the deck again.
I tested different sideboard options against miracle: Full sneak & show without reanimation spell, it was horrible ! I tested also with decay and i was very disapointed by it. They don t match very well with a fast reanimation plan. Certainly better in unmask version. For the moment I prefere keep a fast reanimation plan with 5-7 discards and 2-3 sneak attack post side but against a strong player and a good sideboard it s looks pretty weak.
Against grixis, brutality looks good. I don t side in blood moon in this match up because of deathrite but maybe it could be fine to have access to blood moon to blow up the oponent in a good spot.

I didn t test wear/tear, sounds good ! Specialy against eldrazi. I will test it.

Sorry for my english, it s not my... :)

tchussly

Hey, I'm currently building your deck, but there aren't many graveyard decks in my meta, but there is a lot of Karakas. I want to put in an Archtype of Endurance into the 75 but can't figure out if it should be a MD or SB, and if it is MD what to switch.

Poron
10-19-2016, 05:13 PM
Grave Titan clearly. It's the anti Karakas creature

Kraus
10-19-2016, 06:01 PM
Grave Titan clearly. It's the anti Karakas creature

I've used it to dodge Maze of Ith as well.

I like Grave Titan: it pitches to Unmask, you can Ritual it out, and deathtouch is nice pseudo-evasion. It even leaves guys on the field if they somehow get rid of it. That said, it's not as insanely disruptive as Sire, so I limit myself to one.

DNSolver
10-19-2016, 10:06 PM
Glad to see a lot more discussion going on!

Various versions of this deck were featured over on MTGGoldfish:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-66th-kmc-landstill-reanimator-and-a-different-ur-delver

I could actually see Wasteland being interesting. For example, Wastelanding the one Tropical Island out of Grixis Delver might change the matchup considerably... Worth considering I think, considering how bad the matchup is. You could play four in the sideboard. Ghost Quarter would actually be better in this specific matchup because you can use it to protect your mana-producing lands by Ghost Quartering yourself in response to their Wastelands.

I like the demon guy mentioned as a substitute for Elesh Norn, but there's a tension between reanimating it too early vs too late - it doesn't kill any creatures if you are playing it turn 1. It's fine as a secondary reanimation target but so are a lot of cards, such as Tidespout, Archetype, Iona, etc. Also, the Death and Taxes matchup is relatively easy because we are so unfair.

Edit: Also, the best target against Karakas is Griselbrand into Archetype/Tidespout. Griselbrand is so correct so much of the time that you can slam it into Karakas just to get so many cards.

Poron
10-19-2016, 10:21 PM
I really like these decks but they get so much cross hated..

Surgixal Extraction is played by everyone because of Punishing Fire, Dark Depths, Snapmage tricks and so on.

Faerie Macabre is played by everyone who doesn't play Surgical and anyway all the decks that don't play white (StP, Karakas) they play black or green for Deathrite.

I love reanimator but it will never get more than tier 1.5/2

As well as every combo deck out there that doesn't involve SnT will be always worse then SnT decks.

DNSolver
10-20-2016, 10:08 AM
StP, Karakas
Doesn't do much.



As well as every combo deck out there that doesn't involve SnT will be always worse then SnT decks.
Great, let me know when you can beat Death and Taxes with Sanctum Prelate.

Poron
10-20-2016, 11:17 AM
Eot Lim-Dul's Vault into the piece you miss between SnT and Inkwell Leviathan.

Then proceed in casting it and put down Inkwell

Anti Ring, Banisher Priest, Karakas, StP and Cataclysm.

Prelate is just to be read like Chalice is everywhere

if you know/fear Containment Priest

SnT Omniscience Levithan

this can all happen on turn 2 (thought not probable) with 10 counters backup and 4 Thoughtseize

Sapphire Charm is also a card for Priest

As well as
Teferi's Realm
Teferi's Curse

both resolve Prelate Chalice and Priest

anakyn
10-21-2016, 09:00 AM
Eot Lim-Dul's Vault into the piece you miss between SnT and Inkwell Leviathan.

Then proceed in casting it and put down Inkwell

Anti Ring, Banisher Priest, Karakas, StP and Cataclysm.

Prelate is just to be read like Chalice is everywhere

if you know/fear Containment Priest

SnT Omniscience Levithan

this can all happen on turn 2 (thought not probable) with 10 counters backup and 4 Thoughtseize

Sapphire Charm is also a card for Priest

As well as
Teferi's Realm
Teferi's Curse

both resolve Prelate Chalice and Priest

Don't think you ever played SnT against DnT.
It's probably one of the worst matchups for SnT (now it has become even worse), and judging from your considerations I don't think you realize it.

Poron
10-21-2016, 09:18 AM
just be sure he will not put Priest in before you combo off
Just don't play the combo in a turn you have not cleaned his hand with Thoughtseize, Unmask

SnT into Terastodon/Elesh/Emrakul
1 card is really bad against us which is Thalia.
Cave In / Contagion are cards for that.

Overall if a card is on the battlefield my UBg SnT plays 2+2 Abrupt Decay and Crop Rotation for (SB) Karakas and (MD) Boseiju

qomori
10-21-2016, 06:16 PM
Been building this deck up for a bit and finally took it for a spin yesterday. I just played it between rounds at our local legacy weekly, since I have no idea what I'm doing yet, but I'm super excited about the raw speed/power so far and I plan on playing it for real next week.

Played this list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/441416#paper) with a slightly different SB (-1 Macabre, - Tidespout, +Elesh Norn, +Archetype) and tried it out against Painter, SnT, and UB reanimator and only had trouble with the latter, and that was due to my misplays, not the deck.

Had no issues with SnT. We were almost always a turn faster and w/8 pieces of hand disruption, I could clear the way to go off. I guess Griseldad into Sire leaves room for Karakas off the top, but that's a pretty slim out :P

splorf
10-22-2016, 11:25 AM
Regarding the fringe card discussion above:

Dakmor Salvage wasn't really that useful as I hoped it would be. There were a few situations when entombing it was not bad, but most of the time it was - as mentioned - too slow. Next I'll test Chrome Mox in its spot.

Ghost Quarter was decent against Eldrazi and did well against iterations of Delver. As long as there aren't that many basics around, GQ performs good. It seems to be good against opposing Wastelands, since we can react to them to get a Basic. I'll test it further.

Demon of Dark Schemes was fine so far, but sometimes tricky. Swappable. Meta dependent I'd say.

Still haven't casted a single Master of the Feast. :D But Obliterator is likely better in its spot, totally forgot it exists. The other possibility is simply go the Sneak Attack route I guess.

The refered list with above mentioned changes:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp

//Spells
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality

//Creatures
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Demon of Dark Schemes

//Sideboard
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
3 Master of the Feast / Phyrexian Obliterator / Sneak Attack
3 Pyroblast
4 Wear // Tear
2 Ghost Quarter

Fox
10-22-2016, 04:14 PM
Congrats on the win at Europe's EW, I imagine you'll be moving up a forum soon.

P-E
10-22-2016, 05:39 PM
Mizouille took down EW europe

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40/decklists-legacy-championship-2016,c361.html?event=23&evt=23

R3ndr0c
10-22-2016, 07:29 PM
Mizouille took down EW europe

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40/decklists-legacy-championship-2016,c361.html?event=23&evt=23

How is that list better than this list in the link below?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13756&d=281082&f=LE


This took down a 60 player tournament, and I really like the build. According to the decklist it runs 61 cards but that might be an error on the part of mtgtop8.
This list has more discard so it is stronger vs counterspells, and it's basically just as fast except it doesn't have Simian Spirit Guide. The fact that it runs Unmask can make it even faster. I would personally run this list from mtgtop8.

.Ix
10-22-2016, 10:44 PM
I don't think you can really say "it's basically just as fast" while mentioning the Spirit Guides in the same sentence. It has access to a lot more mana T1 and post-Grisel. The SSGs probably play a huge part in the Moon/Sneak SB Plans too.

Chatto
10-23-2016, 03:30 AM
How is that list better than this list in the link below?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13756&d=281082&f=LE


This took down a 60 player tournament, and I really like the build. According to the decklist it runs 61 cards but that might be an error on the part of mtgtop8.
This list has more discard so it is stronger vs counterspells, and it's basically just as fast except it doesn't have Simian Spirit Guide. The fact that it runs Unmask can make it even faster. I would personally run this list from mtgtop8.

Why so salty? Michel Chevallier just won EW in Paris, pushing this deck into the spotlight. Ending first out of 294. Personal matter aside, just congratulate the guy first, before getting negative about his choice of cards. He just got first out of 294 people!!

P-E
10-23-2016, 03:58 AM
haha saying that a list which won a 60 players tournament is better than a list that finished 2nd on 195 and then 1st on 294 players is hilarious

speed is the key after it's just a personal choice over more guides or unmask but it seems (looking at results) simian are a better options :wink:

Poron
10-23-2016, 06:13 AM
Congrats to the winner overall for the choice of Blood Moon and multiple Sires.

I still retain my opinion: this deck can have an unbeatable turn 0 or just lose forever to a turn 2 Containment Priest.
Card which is playable by every deck around but 4c Delver

Seize and Unmask would help, but if they drop it in response?
You would rely only on Collective Brutality which is countered by EVERYTHING played nowadays.

Measure against this deck are luck and 2SB slot.

Turn 0 Chancellor + Sire is just undefedable

Variance is the real winner here.

splorf
10-23-2016, 06:36 AM
Congrats to Michel! Amazing!

Kraus
10-24-2016, 12:44 AM
I 3-1'd a Sunday Legacy event today to take 3rd.

My list was:

Mana: 22
2x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

Creatures: 10
4x Griselbrand
3x Sire of Insanity
1x Archetype of Endurance
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Grave Titan

Disruption: 8
4x Thoughtseize
4x Unmask

Reanimation: 20
4x Faithless Looting
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead

Sideboard:
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Inkwell Leviathan
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Reverent Silence
3x Stronghold Gambit
3x Faerie Macabre

Round 1: Infect, 1-2 loss
Game 1: I get out Griselbrand early and run him over with Grizz and a Grave Titan.
Game 2: I bring in Elesh Norn from the board, swapping out a Sire. I keep a risky, landless hand and just go for it. He has enough counters to make me fail. An Invigorated Glistener Elf does me in.
Game 3: I stick an early Elesh Norn, but he Crop Rotates into Karakas, Wastelands my Badlands, and smashes my head in with a Become Immense'd Inkmoth Nexus.

Round 2: This dude was playing with a Standard deck for some reason. 2-0 win.
Game 1: I smash him.
Game 2: I smash him.
Like, I really don't know why he was playing in a Legacy event. I'd pull out Grizz and some other fatty and he'd just concede. He threw a fit and then dropped.

Round 3: Grixis Delver, 2-0 win
Game 1: I get a turn 1 Grizz, draw 14 cards, drop a Sire, he concedes.
Game 2: Second verse, same as the first, with Thoughtseize backup. Elesh Norn was sided in, but not needed.

Round 4: Mirror Match, 2-1 win. My opponent was playing with Chancellors, SSGs, Neonates, etc.
Game 1: There was an Exhume that gave us both Griselbrands. He gets out a Sire as well. My Grizz eats his Sire, I eventually land more fatties and run him over.
Game 2: I sided out two Exhumes and a Thoughtseize to make room for three Faerie Macabres. He lands a turn 1 Sire, after a Collective Brutality, runs me over three turns later.
Game 3: He tries to go for a turn 1 Iona, I stop him with a Faerie. I then land my own Iona, name black, and he concedes.

Chainer, Dementia Master
10-27-2016, 11:21 AM
Hello!

I've been playing this deck on MTGO and have enjoyed it so far. Does anyone have suggestions for sideboarding for this deck? I'm running Michael Chevalier's list.

When you bring in sneak attack, what are you taking out? When are we bringing in the pyro/red blasts? What are we bringing in blood moon against?

Poron
10-27-2016, 12:22 PM
Discards, mana accelerators and Blood Moon...:eek::eek:

Never felt so bad for my opponent, Counterbalance is nothing

Rocco111
10-28-2016, 03:55 AM
Hello!

I've been playing this deck on MTGO and have enjoyed it so far. Does anyone have suggestions for sideboarding for this deck? I'm running Michael Chevalier's list.

When you bring in sneak attack, what are you taking out? When are we bringing in the pyro/red blasts? What are we bringing in blood moon against?

Good to see more and more people are showing interest in the deck. Crazy to see how much traction it got in the last 6 month...

To answer your questions, I invite you to read through the first pages of this thread. That will already answer some. :wink:

qomori
10-28-2016, 04:07 AM
Played the deck for the first time in an actual tournament (small weekly night--just 4 rounds) tonight. I didn't do very well, but it definitely feels like that's me not having enough reps in and not the deck itself.

One thing I was hoping for advice on was Pithing Needle in the board when you're splashing Bayou already. I felt like whenever I would bring in Needle, I was already bringing in Decays and didn't want to sideboard more cards than that. Decay hits Deathrite, I'm running Archetype to beat Karakas, and it feels like Port takes too long for D&T to get going. I ended up Needling Wasteland a few times, but with only Faithless Looting or hard cast Sire where you need red, fetching Swamps wasn't too big a deal. Are people running the green splash still packing Needle in the board?

On a side note, there's tons of Storm/ANT in my meta. I usually play Infect, so I'm about 50/50 and, man, did it feel good to have such a lopsided match up for once. Stronghold Gambit almost seems like overkill, but also land, Petal, Gambit to cheat in Chancellor is too good not to run.

DNSolver
10-28-2016, 01:18 PM
I am against Needle for the reasons you said. Decay is just better.

KnightJay96
10-29-2016, 01:48 AM
Hey Guys,

Last Saturday I played in a 20 Man sanctioned legacy event in Melbourne, Australia. Apoligies is I'm lacking information, since its been a week I'm trying to remember off the top of my head.

List: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13811&d=281522&f=LE

Rnd 1: Nic-Fit 1-2 Lose. I won game 1 although as I was drawing cards off griselbrand I didn't hit anyway to get Children of Korlis into the graveyard, however I was able to steal my opponents siege rhino in the graveyard. Game 2 & 3 were decided because of a leyline of the Void.
Rnd 2: RUG Delver 2-0 Win. I combo off on the first turn I believe due to a chancellor of the annex. Game 2 My opponent mulligans to 6. I turn 1 a Grave titan. Promptly scoops
Rnd 3: Elves 2-1 Win. Combo off game 1, Game 2 I reanimate a chancellor of the annex however he beats me down with his team. Game 3 I keep a hand off. 2x Griselbrand, 2 Dark Rituals, Entomb, Thoughtseize. I kept this because stupidly I thought the griselbrand was a exhume (GP promo and from the grave foil). I eventually get some lucky topdecks and am able to get a griselbrand into play then eventually a elesh norn to seal it.
Rnd 4: Storm 2-0 Win. Combo off in both games very early
Rnd 5: UB Reanimator 2-1 Win. I couldn't draw in as I was bottom of the 9 pointers, so I had to play it out. Win puts me 1st, lose puts me out. I thoughtseize him on one taking brainstorm, should have taken a entomb (TBH very tired). He reanimates a griselbrand on turn 2. Games 2 and 3 I win through combo and hand disruption.

Placed me 1st going into top 8

Top 8: RUG Delver 2-0, Go off on turn 1 due to chancellor and him mulling to 6. Game 2 he mulls to 5, I turn 2 dark ritual, thoughtseize, entomb griselbrand, reanimate. Scoops shortly after.
Top 4: Death & Taxes 2-0, Feel super bad for this one. Game 1 opponent mulls to 5 or 6, I reanimate on 1 draw a bunch of cards, can't find combo but pick apart his hand. Says plains go. Draw more cards and kill him. Game 2 I keep a turn 1 hand that is only missing entomb but has faithless looting. Opponent plays Karakas & mother of runes. I draw entomb. Tendrils win.
Finals: Manaless Dredge 2-1 Played my mate Sean in the finals. He wrote a report following his tournament. https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/58xxqq/manaless_dredge_melbourne_tournament_report_2nd/ Very good read. Honestly much better writer then I am so he will have a better report.

I won $105 store credit and had a great sense of accomplishment taking down my first legacy event :)

kinda
10-29-2016, 05:05 PM
I've been running a similar list with a blue splash for snt. I haven't used chancellor's yet so I think I'll test them on Tuesday.

Mana: 22
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence
2x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

Creatures:8
4x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Grave Titan
1x Elesh Norn

Disruption: 5
4x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy

Combo:
1x Children of Korlis
1x Tendrils of Agony

Reanimation: 23
4x Faithless Looting
2x Careful Study
1x Brainstorm
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Show and Tell
1x Shallow Grave

SB:
4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Trickbind
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x
2x REB

xix
10-29-2016, 10:19 PM
4-0 last night -----> U/B reanimator/Storm/Miracles/Infect

Cards changed from BoM winning list:
-1 sire
+1 Archtype Endurance
-1 tidespout
+1 iona

-3 Collective brutality ----- Card is sold out around me, curious to try it out, Don't know if I agree with all 3 copies, maybe 2 and full 4 Animate dead,
+2 unmask
+1 Animate dead

-1 Badland
+1 Bayou

Sideboard
3 Sneak Attack
2 Blood Moon
1 Elesh
1 Tidespout
1 Blazing
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental blast
2 Duress - Definitely should be thoughtseize, but I was not punished for it yet
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Massacre - usually feels good, but we had 3 DnT, but one of them was on miracles, and the other 2 didn't show, --> with collective brutality, I could see cutting this card maybe don't know


Thinking about:
3 Abrupt Decay
or
Golgari Charm/Rev. Silence - Pyro Delver/Miracles (sometimes)/Infect/leyline/RiP, Charm hits them all
or
Drop Green all together.

I am worrying about overboarding more than anything else these days.


Also, I did not see Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast Anytime I boarded it in, and most likely I would either need to be playing slower or have a SSG to use it, but being able to catch a FoW could be a thing.

Point 2:
Just finished watching the CardTitan event, the B/R guy cut his Annex on the play, I know some people do this, but I feel like the card is just so good, Maybe on game 3 on play I could see cutting it down, but on game 1 blind into a match, Just feels so good. What are other peoples thoughts?

Quentin Coldman
10-30-2016, 04:07 AM
Deck made Top 8 at North American Legacy Championshipwith an Unmasked Version;

//Main
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
//Sideboard
3 Reverent Silence
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
3 Stronghold Gambit
2 Collective Brutality
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Seems like both Versions are good enough to rock big tournaments :D just amazing and congrats to the pilot.

wcm8
11-01-2016, 07:01 AM
I really like these decks but they get so much cross hated..

Surgixal Extraction is played by everyone because of Punishing Fire, Dark Depths, Snapmage tricks and so on.

Faerie Macabre is played by everyone who doesn't play Surgical and anyway all the decks that don't play white (StP, Karakas) they play black or green for Deathrite.

I love reanimator but it will never get more than tier 1.5/2

As well as every combo deck out there that doesn't involve SnT will be always worse then SnT decks.

This deck is playing 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Unmask, and can occasionally 'go off' turn 1 protected with a Chancellor of the Annex. It has access to other sideboard cards that similarly disrupt the cards you mentioned. And even against something like Leyline of the Void, some of the creatures could feasibly be hard-cast with the help of Dark Ritual(s), e.g. Grave Titan and Sire of Insanity.

UBx Reanimator fights through hate with discard, counterspells, and/or side-stepping it altogether via Show and Telll. BRx Reanimator similarly has discard and can use Stronghold Gambit as a variant of S&T. Most decks are only packing 2-3 copies of Surgical Extractions at most, similarly Rest in Peace is generally only played as 2-3 copies -- they can be easily dealt with. Deathrite Shaman comes into play with summoning sickness and can easily be killed.

Yes, of course sideboard hate needs to be fought through and is a major consideration with how the deck and sideboard is constructed. Without graeveyard hate, the strategy would be absolutely busted and require banning.

Regardless, this deck is just so blazing fast that the hate often doesn't even matter, or can be easily dealt with by discarding/destroying it.

It's actually preferable that Reanimator stays as a "Tier 2" deck, or at least perceived as such, because that just makes it easier for those who decide to play the deck. Otherwise, Reanimator would have a big fat target painted on its head and players would be running way more hate in their sideboards.

Also, it's worth noting that Reanimator is one of S&T.dec's *worst* matchups. If they cast S&T, you just drop in one of your threats and kill them. Creatures like Iona are notoriously difficult for combo decks to deal with, and Reanimator is generally faster (but especially the BRx version).

I think this version of Reanimator is a legitimately strong deck, and is a worthwhile consideration for taking down a tournament. The results from Eternal Weekend wasn't just a fluke; it was 'proof of concept'. Of course, play-testing and familiarizing yourself with the deck is essential.

.Ix
11-03-2016, 12:34 PM
For the people on dindonrea, how do you get out from under leyline + pithing on sneak? Just hardcast Sire or something? I played the mirror today and he had both cards. I won that game by reanimating his Sire, but I doubt I could beat Eldrazi if he had those in play.

xix
11-04-2016, 03:18 AM
For the people on dindonrea, how do you get out from under leyline + pithing on sneak? Just hardcast Sire or something? I played the mirror today and he had both cards. I won that game by reanimating his Sire, but I doubt I could beat Eldrazi if he had those in play.

By dindonrea im going to assume the children/tendrils list... If that is the case tendrils is a option.

If you mean the other B/R lists there are 2 main lists.

First the Unmask list, Sideboard Reverent Silence/ for the leylines/decays for other things

Or the BoM all in Red list with Sneak attacks, most B/R list are not running their own leyline's


Options:
Thoughtseize or similar, make them discard and reanimate their creature.
Hardcast your own creature
or
Mulligan for a better hand ???? ...
---Did you keep or remove CotA's? Did they turn 0 leyline/turn 1 the needle blind naming sneak attack for game 2? or is it game 3?

Rocco111
11-04-2016, 06:49 AM
By dindonrea im going to assume the children/tendrils list... If that is the case tendrils is a option.

If you mean the other B/R lists there are 2 main lists.

First the Unmask list, Sideboard Reverent Silence/ for the leylines/decays for other things

Or the BoM all in Red list with Sneak attacks, most B/R list are not running their own leyline's


Options:
Thoughtseize or similar, make them discard and reanimate their creature.
Hardcast your own creature
or
Mulligan for a better hand ???? ...
---Did you keep or remove CotA's? Did they turn 0 leyline/turn 1 the needle blind naming sneak attack for game 2? or is it game 3?

Dindonrea is the list which won the BoM. You can find iterations of it packing the Children of Korlis/Tendrils combo but this is more of "plan C" tech than anything else (see TinFins).
This being said, I agree with the rest of your posts.
It is rather uncommon to have Reanimator players packing Leyline so the options listed are all correct.

I tend to often reanimate my opponent's creatures when facing a Leyline, especially vs Eldrazi : make him discard ThoughtKnot, reanimate ThoughtKnot > value. (also works with Smasher or Endbringer)

.Ix
11-06-2016, 01:32 AM
xix
T0 leyline then blind needle on sneak. I'm on the Eternal Weekend List. Didn't board out Chancellor.

Thanks for the ideas. Never actually played against Eldrazi but that seems like a realistic play.

HansoRaptor
11-06-2016, 07:04 AM
Did anyone try multiple sideboard options?
I can't decide on my sideboard. I play the list with Simian Spirit Guides (No Unmask):

4 Badlands
1 Bayou or Mountain (depending on the Sideboard plan)
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp

15 CREATURES
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant

25 INSTANTS and SORC.
3 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize

7 OTHER SPELLS
3 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal

SIDEBOARD
???


The three main sideboard routes I often see are the following:
1. Bloodmoon + Sneak Attack + Ingot Chewer (What is this list going to do against Enchantments like Leyline and RiP?)
2. Abrupt Decay + Reverent Silence + Stronghold Gambit (Is it worth sacrificing the explosiveness from Simian Spirit Guide in exchange for Unmask to play this option?)
3. Show and Tell + Ancient Tomb + Underground Sea


What are your thoughts on this? Most lists I see prefer Sneak Attack, but I absolutely hate the card in this deck. And Stronghold Gambit is only really playable with Unmask Mainboard, otherwise you lack the discard. But I don't feel like it's worth removing Simian Spirit Guide for this.
What I would like to play is the Simian Spirit Guide list (without Unmask) and the green Sideboard Package without Stronghold Gambit. Do you think playing only through the Graveyard is tournament playable?

Quentin Coldman
11-06-2016, 07:28 AM
I prefer Wear // Tear in the sideboard. Gets rid of Chalice + Leyline at the same time, destroys Cage, Bridge and RIP. Would never play without that card. Sure it doesn't hit Containment Priest and Deathrite Shaman, but for those we have now Collective Brutality.

Stronghold Gambit is only good in the Unmasked Version, because u need enough discard to support it.

HansoRaptor
11-06-2016, 07:38 AM
I prefer Wear // Tear in the sideboard. Gets rid of Chalice + Leyline at the same time, destroys Cage, Bridge and RIP. Would never play without that card. Sure it doesn't hit Containment Priest and Deathrite Shaman, but for those we have now Collective Brutality.
Interesting. Do you just use your petals for the white mana or do play another white based dual?


Stronghold Gambit is only good in the Unmasked Version, because u need enough discard to support it.
Yeah that's what I thought :/

Quentin Coldman
11-06-2016, 08:57 AM
Interesting. Do you just use your petals for the white mana or do play another white based dual?


I play with a Scrubland instead of the Mountain. Not a really a fan of the Mountain in the Deck anyway. We're not that red!

KnightJay96
11-06-2016, 05:04 PM
I play with a Scrubland instead of the Mountain. Not a really a fan of the Mountain in the Deck anyway. We're not that red!

I agree with you 100% on not running the mountain. Nothing worse when you've got a turn one reanimate hand and can't do it because your only land in hand doesn't produce black :(

Nocley
11-07-2016, 11:26 AM
I play with a Scrubland instead of the Mountain. Not a really a fan of the Mountain in the Deck anyway. We're not that red!

I think this exactly what I want to be doing as well. -1 Mountain +1 Scrubland. The red was never too important, plus you have 4 SSGs. Would set the SB to the Brutality Version to:

4 Wear//Tear
3 Blood Moon
2 Sneak Attack
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Blazing Archon
2 Thoughtseize
1 ???

Could also possibly go 3 W/T and 2 Needle with the open slot. I don't know.

HansoRaptor
11-07-2016, 04:43 PM
I think this exactly what I want to be doing as well. -1 Mountain +1 Scrubland. The red was never too important, plus you have 4 SSGs. Would set the SB to the Brutality Version to:

4 Wear//Tear
3 Blood Moon
2 Sneak Attack
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Blazing Archon
2 Thoughtseize
1 ???

Could also possibly go 3 W/T and 2 Needle with the open slot. I don't know.

I think that playing two needle is a must! Karakas, Deathrite Shaman, Top, Wasteland, Faerie Macabre, Thespian Stage.
Why bother playing Sneak Attack when you have 4 Wear//Tear anyway? Should that not be enough to go for the graveyard plan? For creatures like Deathrite Shaman and Containment Priest you have Collective Brutality and Pithing Needle.
I agree on removing the mountain. A second swamp or another dual for SB splash is way better.

RobNC
11-07-2016, 04:58 PM
I read the whole thread over the last two days so apologies if I somehow missed this:

Is there any reason to not run Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize? Can disrupt an opponent's combo (possibly even 2-for-1 or better) and still gives you a look at their hand, or can target yourself to remove a fatty without paying the two life. I can't see flashback being used, though, unless you have a ridiculous hand that allows multiple reanimations in one turn.

HansoRaptor
11-07-2016, 06:20 PM
I think the only reason why Thoughtseize is preferred is the fact that you can play it turn one and remove the opponents best card in hand without even knowing what deck they play or which cards they have in hand.
Just imagine going up against delver and having to predict if they have a daze, force, or spellpierce/spellsnare. Once you chose the wrong card, you're basically done for. Having the benefit of hitting maybe two or more cards with Cabal Therapy is in my opinion not worth the risk.

Namida
11-07-2016, 06:28 PM
Simply put, missing on a Cabal Therapy could easily be fatal for you. You could possibly 2-for-1 a combo opponent, but you could just as easily 0-for-1 and be dead on the spot. You still get to look at your opponent's hand, but paying a black mana for just a Peek with no cantrip is not a card you'd play normally. Not paying 2 life to discard your own creature is nice, but the "Discard my own cards" mode isn't as important as being able to disrupt your opponent/protect your spells, and you've said yourself that you don't anticipate Flashing back this spell often.

Zooligan
11-08-2016, 10:57 AM
I prefer Wear // Tear in the sideboard. Gets rid of Chalice + Leyline at the same time, destroys Cage, Bridge and RIP. Would never play without that card. Sure it doesn't hit Containment Priest and Deathrite Shaman, but for those we have now Collective Brutality.

Stronghold Gambit is only good in the Unmasked Version, because u need enough discard to support it.

I must be missing something here. How does Unmask support Stronghold Gambit? Gambit comes in against creatureless builds, right?

Fox
11-08-2016, 11:14 AM
I must be missing something here. How does Unmask support Stronghold Gambit? Gambit comes in against creatureless builds, right?
You remove their creature from hand -> cast Stronghold Gambit (they have nothing to show). Would only really combo vs low creature count decks.

RobNC
11-08-2016, 11:14 AM
I must be missing something here. How does Unmask support Stronghold Gambit? Gambit comes in against creatureless builds, right?

It's extra discard to ensure you can strip out whatever creature they may have in hand. Relying on 2-4 Thoughtseize might not be enough, and Collective Brutality doesn't take creatures.

EDIT: Fox sort of beat me to it.

Zooligan
11-08-2016, 01:31 PM
I thought it was strictly for creatureless builds like ANT, TES, Lands, etc... as a single discard spell doesn't seem like a great gamble. What if they have two Elvish Spirit Guides, for example.

RobNC
11-08-2016, 02:42 PM
I thought it was strictly for creatureless builds like ANT, TES, Lands, etc... as a single discard spell doesn't seem like a great gamble. What if they have two Elvish Spirit Guides, for example.

Then you obviously wouldn't cast it. I would never cast the card unless I was able to check the opponent's hand in some way. Even "creatureless" decks may run a small number. Lands can run Tireless Tracker, storm decks can run Xantid Swarm. I don't know if either of those decks would actually side them in against you at all but it's not impossible.

gRR!!
11-09-2016, 02:25 AM
Hey there folks,

Yesterday I 3-1'd a small tournament with BR Reanimator (the exact 75 that won the BoM). I won 2-0 vs Burn, 2-0 vs MUC, lost 1-2 vs Bant after a prodigious succession of topdecks from my opponent in Game 3, and won 2-1 vs Miracles. The deck is freaking good, but I didn't use the Sneak Attack in any sideboarded match, and I'm not quite sure about when I should side them in. Any clues?

KnightJay96
11-09-2016, 02:30 AM
Hey there folks,

Yesterday I 3-1'd a small tournament with BR Reanimator (the exact 75 that won the BoM). I won 2-0 vs Burn, 2-0 vs MUC, lost 1-2 vs Bant after a prodigious succession of topdecks from my opponent in Game 3, and won 2-1 vs Miracles. The deck is freaking good, but I didn't use the Sneak Attack in any sideboarded match, and I'm not quite sure about when I should side them in. Any clues?

Glad you did well man, great to see the deck having success. :smile:

You bring Sneaks in matchups where graveyard hate is strong in their deck. For example Sneak is good against Shardless or any DRS deck because it gets around DRS.

RhoxWarMonk
11-09-2016, 04:06 AM
Hey there folks,

Yesterday I 3-1'd a small tournament with BR Reanimator (the exact 75 that won the BoM). I won 2-0 vs Burn, 2-0 vs MUC, lost 1-2 vs Bant after a prodigious succession of topdecks from my opponent in Game 3, and won 2-1 vs Miracles. The deck is freaking good, but I didn't use the Sneak Attack in any sideboarded match, and I'm not quite sure about when I should side them in. Any clues?

I'm new to this deck myself but I've been pulling in sneak attacks against Eldrazi, in addition to anything with strong gy manipulation. They are famous for playing 4x Leyline of the Void and that's a rough card to get around due to the turn 0 clause (I find I can race most other gy hate )...

Still not sure if sneak attack is necessary over something like abrupt decay to just get rid of whatever problem enchantment or artifact is there but AD still doesn't hit lotv and the only card ingot chewer doesn't hit apart from that is RiP. So far I'll stick with this plan and see how it goes. Really digging the blood moon in the sb, been less impressed with the needles but feels like a necessity with Karakas everywhere.

gRR!!
11-09-2016, 04:25 AM
The thing is, vs decks with DRS we already have maindeck Collective Brutality and sideboard Pithing Needle and Blood Moon, so I feel that siding in Sneak Attack may be unnecessary. I agree that it may be a solution vs Eldrazi though. And another thing I like about the "red sideboard" is that there is no need for a third color for AD/Wear-Tear and whatnot.

Zooligan
11-09-2016, 07:59 AM
The thing is, vs decks with DRS we already have maindeck Collective Brutality and sideboard Pithing Needle and Blood Moon, so I feel that siding in Sneak Attack may be unnecessary. I agree that it may be a solution vs Eldrazi though. And another thing I like about the "red sideboard" is that there is no need for a third color for AD/Wear-Tear and whatnot.

What's the plan for the mirror with the red SB?

Also, is the 4 Badlands/6 Fetches ratio correct with so much Wasteland running around? Wouldn't more fetches be correct to get basics?

Just for reference, i believe this is the list you are referring to:

Main:
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Side:
3 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sneak Attack
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

gRR!!
11-09-2016, 08:52 AM
I've played this version just since yesterday, so I'm still unsure about the land distribution. I know I lost a game b/c I had a Badlands as only land and got Wastelanded, where a Fetchland or Swamp would had given me the match (and the round), but sometimes you want to play Faithless turn 1 and reanimate spell turn 2, so I understand 4 Badlands are a must (and so we need a way to find them).

And for the mirror I would sideboard something like this (but I'm improvising):

-4 Exhume
-2 Sire of Insanity
-1 Collective Brutality

+1 Blazing Archon
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+3 Sneak Attack
+2 Thoughtseize

EDIT: May I ask why this version is still in "New and Developmental decks"?

Rocco111
11-09-2016, 09:54 AM
I've played this version just since yesterday, so I'm still unsure about the land distribution. I know I lost a game b/c I had a Badlands as only land and got Wastelanded, where a Fetchland or Swamp would had given me the match (and the round), but sometimes you want to play Faithless turn 1 and reanimate spell turn 2, so I understand 4 Badlands are a must (and so we need a way to find them).

And for the mirror I would sideboard something like this (but I'm improvising):

-4 Exhume
-2 Sire of Insanity
-1 Collective Brutality

+1 Blazing Archon
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+3 Sneak Attack
+2 Thoughtseize

EDIT: May I ask why this version is still in "New and Developmental decks"?

For the mirror, although your side seems good to me, it really only boils down to "who's got the Chancellor?" and "can I bin a threat and reanimate it the same turn?". :)

As for the place of the deck on this forum, it is better for it to be kept in the shadows. It has seen too much spotlights recently and we do not want every player on the planet to pack a full set of GY-hate in their Sideboards, thanks. :)

Grogue08
11-09-2016, 10:08 AM
So after seeing this deck on camera this weekend I'm really interested/ excited by it.
What I was going to ask though is this deck seems very similar to the burning reanimator decks of yester year. Does this deck gain anything from the LED plan? Is this basically that deck with the bugs worked out? I still dream of turn 1 sure of insanity.

gRR!!
11-09-2016, 10:12 AM
For the mirror, although your side seems good to me, it really only boils down to "who's got the Chancellor?" and "can I bin a threat and reanimate it the same turn?". :)

As for the place of the deck on this forum, it is better for it to be kept in the shadows. It has seen too much spotlights recently and we do not want every player on the planet to pack a full set of GY-hate in their Sideboards, thanks. :)

I agree on both issues :). Yes, better to keep a low profile while we can!

xix
11-09-2016, 06:58 PM
Manabase Stock
6 fetch
4 badlands - not sold on 4 right now haven't needed more than 3 in any game, and the games I went over 3 land, I got swamps for protection from wasteland. 7th fetch ?
2 swamp
1 mountain - I run the 4xSSG, and I have never even considered fetching for basic mountain yet.

Choice 1:
6 fetch
4 badland
2 swamp
1 bayou

SB: Unmask default or similar with Reverant Silence/decays

vs

Choice 2:
6 fetch
4 badlands
2 swamp
1 Scrubland

SB: with something like:
3 Wear//Tear
2 Needle

- Kind of feel like you don't want to be on a sneak attack plan with the wear//tear and instead just want to go full 4 blood moon, and just use the wear//tear into the chalice/leyline, the Red sneak attack plan just kinds of ignores the leyline and seems simpler.

What are your thoughts people ?

Crotos
11-10-2016, 11:16 PM
Manabase Stock
6 fetch
4 badlands - not sold on 4 right now haven't needed more than 3 in any game, and the games I went over 3 land, I got swamps for protection from wasteland. 7th fetch ?
2 swamp
1 mountain - I run the 4xSSG, and I have never even considered fetching for basic mountain yet.

Choice 1:
6 fetch
4 badland
2 swamp
1 bayou

SB: Unmask default or similar with Reverant Silence/decays

vs

Choice 2:
6 fetch
4 badlands
2 swamp
1 Scrubland

SB: with something like:
3 Wear//Tear
2 Needle

- Kind of feel like you don't want to be on a sneak attack plan with the wear//tear and instead just want to go full 4 blood moon, and just use the wear//tear into the chalice/leyline, the Red sneak attack plan just kinds of ignores the leyline and seems simpler.

What are your thoughts people ?

The board plan I'm considering at this time has me rooting more for option 2 right now.
I'm currently running the main deck SSG / Collective Brutality version at the moment.

SB
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
3 Wear//Tear
4 Show and Tell
2 Underground Sea

I'm finding the Sneak Attack plan to just be a tad slow and with the 4 petals and 2 USeas in board I haven't had any issues thus far getting a Show and Tell off.
Wear//Tear has been very important. Chalice @ 1 and Leyline just plain hurt bad. This card hits them both.
I personally have only cringed when drawing the basic mountain in either build in my opening hand. I'd rather run a 3rd swamp than the mountain at this point.

Zooligan
11-11-2016, 08:13 AM
The board plan I'm considering at this time has me rooting more for option 2 right now.
I'm currently running the main deck SSG / Collective Brutality version at the moment.

SB
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
3 Wear//Tear
4 Show and Tell
2 Underground Sea

I'm finding the Sneak Attack plan to just be a tad slow and with the 4 petals and 2 USeas in board I haven't had any issues thus far getting a Show and Tell off.
Wear//Tear has been very important. Chalice @ 1 and Leyline just plain hurt bad. This card hits them both.
I personally have only cringed when drawing the basic mountain in either build in my opening hand. I'd rather run a 3rd swamp than the mountain at this point.

So I take it you run 4 Badlands / 6 Fetches main, and when you board in the Show and Tell - Underground Sea package you remove 2 Badlands and __________________??

DNSolver
11-11-2016, 11:22 AM
If you're going to run Underground Seas in the sideboard to fetch, I would definitely play 8 fetches.

Zooligan
11-11-2016, 02:12 PM
If you're going to run Underground Seas in the sideboard to fetch, I would definitely play 8 fetches.

So run 2 Badlands / 8 Fetches main, and when you board in the Show and Tell - Underground Sea package you remove 2 Fetches and __________________?? Otherwise you'd get crimped on red mana for Faithless Looting.

RobNC
11-12-2016, 11:33 PM
Played a 5 rounder this afternoon and had one BR Reanimator player that I got to watch a little (and play against one round). Got a little insight from him on creature choices but didn't have enough time for sideboard questions.

He was siding in Blood Moon against a lot of people, but what do you take out for it? I suppose the same goes for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence, since those are likely catch-alls that you might side in on the blind (especially Decay).

Zooligan
11-14-2016, 09:23 AM
Recommended anti-hate cards:

Abrupt Decay - covers most hate cards in general

Reverent Silence - hits Leyline of the Void, which Abrupt Decay can't...

Both these cards are 4-of in the SB of the Bayou'ed version. 8 cards seems like a lot to bring in G2, but if you didn't win G1 it seems necessary as you don't know what version of GY hate the opponent might bring in. You can make some guesses in certain matchups, but some could bring hate you could only target with either Decay or Silence.

Nocley
11-14-2016, 11:17 AM
Both these cards are 4-of in the SB of the Bayou'ed version. 8 cards seems like a lot to bring in G2, but if you didn't win G1 it seems necessary as you don't know what version of GY hate the opponent might bring in. You can make some guesses in certain matchups, but some could bring hate you could only target with either Decay or Silence.

That's the issue I have with the Green version, you don't ever want that space for 8 total cards, which is why I'd like to move to Wear//Tear, you can hit anything for only 4 SB slots. Once you board in 7+ cards, it gets really weird of being able to consistently combo (though one can argue that you can go a bit slower with blood moon as the whole goal of the card is to make your opponent not really be able to play magic while you build up from there.

Zooligan
11-14-2016, 11:21 AM
That's the issue I have with the Green version, you don't ever want that space for 8 total cards, which is why I'd like to move to Wear//Tear, you can hit anything for only 4 SB slots. Once you board in 7+ cards, it gets really weird of being able to consistently combo (though one can argue that you can go a bit slower with blood moon as the whole goal of the card is to make your opponent not really be able to play magic while you build up from there.

Mmm, yeah, that's a pretty big vote for W/T. Decay is just so good... except when the leylines start voiding your yard.

Quentin Coldman
11-14-2016, 11:42 AM
Mmm, yeah, that's a pretty big vote for W/T. Decay is just so good... except when the leylines start voiding your yard.

The most decks can be beaten with being fast. The problem is just that Leyline can't be beaten with Tempo, all the other hate can. So I'd never leave the house without an answer for Leyline. That's why I play W/T over Decay. Sure Decay is very flexibel, but bringing in Decay means loosing Tempo, and without this loss of tempo in a lot of cases Decay wouldn't be needed.

Zooligan
11-14-2016, 01:38 PM
The most decks can be beaten with being fast. The problem is just that Leyline can't be beaten with Tempo, all the other hate can. So I'd never leave the house without an answer for Leyline. That's why I play W/T over Decay. Sure Decay is very flexibel, but bringing in Decay means loosing Tempo, and without this loss of tempo in a lot of cases Decay wouldn't be needed.

I like that analysis. Very nicely said.

OK, back to RobNC's question, what comes out for the 3 Blood Moon?

RobNC
11-14-2016, 03:39 PM
I like that analysis. Very nicely said.

OK, back to RobNC's question, what comes out for the 3 Blood Moon?

Or anything for that matter.

Even with the anti-hate, you're likely bringing in 4 Abrupt Decay, 4 Wear / Tear, or 4 Reverent Silence (or a mix of all of those), and/or Blood Moon as well.

Zooligan
11-15-2016, 09:06 PM
Hey, so, got a question:

I was playing online and ended up in the mirror. We both showed Chancellor T0. He cast Faithless into my CotA and passed. I played a land and was holding Entomb, Reanimate x2, Faithless, CotA, and G-daddy. I wanted to cast one of my Reanimate into his CotA with no legal targets in the yard, but the program wouldn't let me. So, the question - is Reanimate bugged online or should it really not be castable without anything in graveyards?

haxorz
11-15-2016, 09:19 PM
Hey, so, got a question:

I was playing online and ended up in the mirror. We both showed Chancellor T0. He cast Faithless into my CotA and passed. I played a land and was holding Entomb, Reanimate x2, Faithless, CotA, and G-daddy. I wanted to cast one of my Reanimate into his CotA with no legal targets in the yard, but the program wouldn't let me. So, the question - is Reanimate bugged online or should it really not be castable without anything in graveyards?



Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.


mtgo is correct. you need a target in order to place reanimate on the stack.

Doneval
11-15-2016, 10:26 PM
Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.


mtgo is correct. you need a target in order to place reanimate on the stack.

That's correct, but it's a really confusing card. Even looking at the updated Oracle text:


Enchant creature card in a graveyard

When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.

Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.


http://magiccards.info/5e/en/2.html

The key thing is the first line: Enchant creature card in a graveyard. You apparently you need to have a valid target when you cast it.

splorf
11-15-2016, 10:51 PM
That's correct, but it's a really confusing card. Even looking at the updated Oracle text:


Enchant creature card in a graveyard

When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.

Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.


http://magiccards.info/5e/en/2.html

The key thing is the first line: Enchant creature card in a graveyard. You apparently you need to have a valid target when you cast it.

He was referring Reanimate, not Animate Dead. :wink:

Doneval
11-15-2016, 11:03 PM
He was referring Reanimate, not Animate Dead. :wink:

Doh! Sorry.

gRR!!
11-16-2016, 02:10 AM
Hey there folks,

Yesterday I split (3-0 and IDd the 4th round) my weekly Legacy tournament (15 people showed in). I won 2-0 vs Goblins, where I had to reanimate my Griselbrand four times (he Warren Weirded me, I Reanimated the Grizzy again, then he Weirded me again, then I Animated the Grizzy, then he Decayed my Animate Dead, then I topdecked Exhume and that was all), 2-1 vs Miracles (first match I was Terminus'd three times and won at 1 life by Simian beats!), 2-0 vs Lands, where Blood Moon shined, and then we played last round for fun and lost 0-2 vs Jund Pox (1st match he played Smallpox to kill my Griselbrand, I draw 7 but there were nothing good there so I lost shortly after, and I punted 2nd match when I kept a no-lander after mulliganing to 6 because I forgot I was on the play!). I lived the dream of playing turn 0 Chancellor + turn 1 reanimate fattie a couple of times. The deck is really, really that good. But again, I didn't need to side in Sneak Attack for any of my matches. Stronghold Gambit would have been better vs Lands and Jund Pox, but this would imply some changes in maindeck, and I don't want to do this right now.

This Saturday there will be the monthly Catalan Legacy League, where around 60 people are expected. We'll see how the deck performs then!

Zooligan
11-16-2016, 07:20 AM
Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.


mtgo is correct. you need a target in order to place reanimate on the stack.

OK, this is interesting. I thought you could cast it, just that it would fizzle with no legal targets.

What is the difference in wording on a card in general that will
a) let you place a spell on the stack that fizzles with no legal targets
vs.
b) keep you from placing a card on the stack with no legal targets

If this question is too general for this thread I could delete and ask in the rules/interactions forum.

EDIT: Nevermind. This is the same as the Red Elemental Blast vs. Pyroblast on non-blue spell thing. If Reanimate was worded "Return target card from a graveyard if it's a creature." i could have cast it targeting opponent's Faithless Looting and it would have fizzled because looting isn't a creature, but because there were no creatures in any GY it could not be cast. I get it now. Eventually dawn comes to the granite head of every mountain (all evidence from earlier this month aside)...

Ingo
11-16-2016, 08:53 AM
What is the difference in wording on a card in general that will
a) let you place a spell on the stack that fizzles with no legal targets
vs.
b) keep you from placing a card on the stack with no legal targets

EDIT: Nevermind. This is the same as the Red Elemental Blast vs. Pyroblast on non-blue spell thing.

Cards mentioning a target, always require a legal target when casting. Even Pyroblast needs a target, even though it’s sole requirement is being a spell or a permanent. But you couldn’t cast Pyroblast without a permanent on the battlefield, or a spell on the stack.
You can always play exhume though, as it does not require a target, only when the spell resolves you need to choose (in worst case scenario, there’s nothing to choose and exhume does nothing for you). So if your opponent would remove a creature from your graveyard in response to exhume being cast, you get to choose another (whereas Reanimate, targetting a specific dead creature, would fizzle).

DNSolver
11-16-2016, 09:19 AM
@gRR!! : I've actually kept a few no-landers on the play. Here's an example (G3 vs. Elves)

Chancellor of the Annex
Dark Ritual
Thoughtseize
Entomb
Reanimate

on the play, with a scry, we get 2 looks at a land or lotus petal, which is 18 cards, so roughly ~50% to hit on turn 2, even more on turn 3, which I considered fast enough in the matchup. I also get to have my opponent play land-pass on their first turn unless they want to just get something countered. If they do get something countered (a mana dork or Therapy for example) that's fine by me. I figured I wasn't going to have better chances on 4 cards than with this hand.

Zooligan
11-16-2016, 09:43 AM
Hey there folks,

Yesterday I split (3-0 and IDd the 4th round) my weekly Legacy tournament (15 people showed in). I won 2-0 vs Goblins, where I had to reanimate my Griselbrand four times (he Warren Weirded me, I Reanimated the Grizzy again, then he Weirded me again, then I Animated the Grizzy, then he Decayed my Animate Dead, then I topdecked Exhume and that was all), 2-1 vs Miracles (first match I was Terminus'd three times and won at 1 life by Simian beats!), 2-0 vs Lands, where Blood Moon shined, and then we played last round for fun and lost 0-2 vs Jund Pox (1st match he played Smallpox to kill my Griselbrand, I draw 7 but there were nothing good there so I lost shortly after, and I punted 2nd match when I kept a no-lander after mulliganing to 6 because I forgot I was on the play!). I lived the dream of playing turn 0 Chancellor + turn 1 reanimate fattie a couple of times. The deck is really, really that good. But again, I didn't need to side in Sneak Attack for any of my matches. Stronghold Gambit would have been better vs Lands and Jund Pox, but this would imply some changes in maindeck, and I don't want to do this right now.

This Saturday there will be the monthly Catalan Legacy League, where around 60 people are expected. We'll see how the deck performs then!

Could you post your full list, just for reference?

RobNC
11-16-2016, 10:19 AM
OK, this is interesting. I thought you could cast it, just that it would fizzle with no legal targets.

What is the difference in wording on a card in general that will
a) let you place a spell on the stack that fizzles with no legal targets
vs.
b) keep you from placing a card on the stack with no legal targets


The key thing to remember here is a spell doesn't fizzle when cast, it can only fizzle on resolution.

gRR!!
11-16-2016, 10:29 AM
Could you post your full list, just for reference?

Same than two pages ago, I'm still very satisfied with this version:

Main:
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Side:
3 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sneak Attack
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

@DNSolver: Yeah, one of the (much) things I like about this deck is that you can keep no-landers with a relatively high probability of success. Anyway my 6 cards were not good enough, I should have mulliganed to 5.

CptHaddock
11-16-2016, 10:53 AM
Same than two pages ago, I'm still very satisfied with this version:

Main:
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Side:
3 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sneak Attack
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

@DNSolver: Yeah, one of the (much) things I like about this deck is that you can keep no-landers with a relatively high probability of success. Anyway my 6 cards were not good enough, I should have mulliganed to 5.

Requesting pictures of the pimped out deck please. :tongue:

gRR!!
11-16-2016, 02:04 PM
Requesting pictures of the pimped out deck please. :tongue:

Sure, here it is :smile: Sorry for the awful quality, this time of year the light is very bad. I'll try to take better pics this Saturday after the tournament!

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/gRR_RRg/Pimp%20MtG/BR%20Reanimator_zps6rf4wkdg.jpg

Zooligan
11-16-2016, 03:12 PM
Did you get a chance to use Blood Moon from the SB this time around? Actually, would you be open to describing your SB plans for various matchups? I have a feeling I'm over-boarding (currently doing the Scrubland/WearTear thing).

Beautiful deck BTW. Ooh---Shiny.

KnightJay96
11-16-2016, 05:04 PM
Sure, here it is :smile: Sorry for the awful quality, this time of year the light is very bad. I'll try to take better pics this Saturday after the tournament!

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/gRR_RRg/Pimp%20MtG/BR%20Reanimator_zps6rf4wkdg.jpg

Whats the card to the right of exhume? Also looks pimp man 😀

gRR!!
11-17-2016, 02:32 AM
Did you get a chance to use Blood Moon from the SB this time around? Actually, would you be open to describing your SB plans for various matchups? I have a feeling I'm over-boarding (currently doing the Scrubland/WearTear thing).

Beautiful deck BTW. Ooh---Shiny.

Thanks! Yes, I sided in Blood Moon in my matches versus Lands and Jund Pox. Versus Lands, my side was, IIRC, -3 Collective +3 Blood Moon. I draw 2 of the 3 Moons and played both of them (I think there was turns 3 and 4), just in case of a Krosan Grip. He never recovered. We played a 3rd match for fun and I played BMoon turn 2 off of a Ritual. I also won these.

Versus Pox I sided -1 Animate Dead, -1 Griselbrand, -1 Brutality for the 3 Blood Moon. Anyway I kept a bad no-land hand with Chancellor (that was the reason to keep the hand), Blood Moon, Looting and I don't remember what else; I didn't draw any land soon enough and lost miserably (he Smallpoxed my first 2 lands and also played 2xSphere of Resistance, so it was imposible to get out).

Anyway, in game 2 I try to sideboard very lightly (in this last cases just the Blood Moons), see what kind of hate my opponent brings on, and adapt for Game 3 (if we arrive that far :wink:). EDIT: In obvious cases like Eldrazi, where we highly suspect they will bring Leyline of the Void, I would side Blood Moon and Sneak Attack. I'd probably side out Thoughtseizes, Brutalities and maybe 1 Griselbrand.

@KnightJay96: Is a foil signed altered Necro-Impotence, I use it to separate maindeck and sideboard :cool:

Zooligan
11-17-2016, 07:02 AM
Versus Lands, my side was, IIRC, -3 Collective +3 Blood Moon. I draw 2 of the 3 Moons and played both of them (I think there was turns 3 and 4), just in case of a Krosan Grip. He never recovered. We played a 3rd match for fun and I played BMoon turn 2 off of a Ritual. I also won these.

Versus Pox I sided -1 Animate Dead, -1 Griselbrand, -1 Brutality for the 3 Blood Moon. Anyway I kept a bad no-land hand with Chancellor (that was the reason to keep the hand), Blood Moon, Looting and I don't remember what else; I didn't draw any land soon enough and lost miserably (he Smallpoxed my first 2 lands and also played 2xSphere of Resistance, so it was imposible to get out).

Anyway, in game 2 I try to sideboard very lightly (in this last cases just the Blood Moons), see what kind of hate my opponent brings on, and adapt for Game 3 (if we arrive that far :wink:). EDIT: In obvious cases like Eldrazi, where we highly suspect they will bring Leyline of the Void, I would side Blood Moon and Sneak Attack. I'd probably side out Thoughtseizes, Brutalities and maybe 1 Griselbrand.

Thanks for the SB strategy guide gRR! That's sort of what I have been doing, IF I win G1. If I manage to lose G1 I believe I tend to bring in hate answers AND tactical answers for the deck I'm playing against. I'm pretty sure this is not really helping my chances and more shooting myself in the foot, diluting the deck's natural speed advantage.

What matchups do you bring in the two SB Thoughtseize, and what comes out for them?

Also Pithing Needle. I would have thought that would be a card for the Lands matchup, naming Thespian's Stage.