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MrFrowny_
04-21-2017, 10:47 AM
So with how mana-hungry Deathblade is, I see a lot of lists running wasteland in the deck. To become more consistent with your mana could you cut the wastelands for more colored sources? Just curious, I haven't played the deck much but am interested in building it.

Neo900
04-21-2017, 01:16 PM
Wasteland is not a must have but it helps. Mostly against utility lands like vilraths stronghold, phyrexian tower, thespian stage.
But plays like 1st turn deathrite; 2nd Wasteland + Stoneforge Mystic; gives you a huge tempo advantage. Combo decks like rb reanimator can get easily screwed with one wasteland.

MrFrowny_
04-22-2017, 08:10 PM
So I built this list for the time being, to test things out and such. What do you all think?

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemisis
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Painful Truths

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
2 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats

First_Revenge
04-24-2017, 03:28 PM
So with the advent of the miracles ban where are we left? Our manabase gets more stable since we don't really need AD as much?

MrFrowny_
04-24-2017, 03:41 PM
So with the advent of the miracles ban where are we left? Our manabase gets more stable since we don't really need AD as much?

I'd say so, maybe just 1 green source now. But who knows what the meta will change to now.

First_Revenge
04-24-2017, 05:33 PM
I’ll make some predictions for posterity, I can look back on this in a few months and have a laugh at myself. I’m obviously far from a legacy expert, but here are some initial thoughts I have.

As an archetype I think stoneblade in general gets way more viable. Stoneblade/deathblade has always felt like miracle’s less powerful younger brother. If I’m not mistaken the emergence of miracles was what pushed us out of the metagame in the first place. With miracles out of the picture stoneblade might emerge as one of the premier control decks.

Combo decks will probably make a pretty big resurgence. Not sure which ones in particular, but I suspect we’ll be putting our counterspells to good use. I’ve always run a pretty counter heavy build so this doesn’t really phase me as much.

Elves making a huge resurgence seems likely, we may need to pack more point removal and sweepers in the SB.

I don’t think we really need AD anymore. Green has always strained our manabase. I suspect we replace our AD’s with fatal push. I personally kept two ADs in my sideboard so I’ve got two more slots to play around with! No more AD’s means we are probably more of a 3.5 color deck, splashing green for the odd deathrite activation or leovold.

There’s going to be a fight to figure out who the best DRS deck is. I don’t really know what happens with all the BUG goodstuff builds that have been running around. I suspect they’re still good, but one of their main selling points has been the ability to beat miracles. With miracles gone who knows what happens or how they adjust. I don’t think deathblade comes out as the best DRS deck, but then again deathblade has always been a jack of all trades sort of deck so that doesn’t phase me much.

Possibly a bad thing, with miracles gone, I think DRS becomes the new “king” of legacy. I don’t expect my shamans to live very long if I resolve them since everyone will have a plan to deal with them. Strapping on my tinfoil hat, I think DRS might even eat a banhammer. Pre SDT ban, DRS is in 36% of decks, with the ban I can see it crawling over 50% of decks. Then again pure % of decks isn’t enough to get a card banned as brainstorm continues to prove to us. /speculation

Hanni
04-24-2017, 06:05 PM
I expect Delver to make a huge resurgence. I may be biased, but I think Bant (Nobleblade) is better positioned in the meta. 8 mana dorks is a really strong plan against Daze and Wasteland, especially without Terminus to punish overcommitting to the board.

MrFrowny_
04-26-2017, 12:33 PM
So I'm curious, In Japan some lists run Tasigur in the main. But with how widespread Karakas is in the format, do you think it's worth it to jam him anyways? I like how he can improve the mid-late game with reoccuring spells without having to use snapcaster, but I'm not super sold on him. Just curious what you all think about it.

MrFrowny_
04-27-2017, 01:34 AM
I played in my local LGS tournament tonight and went 2-1, and split top 4. I played against ANT, D&T, and BUG Delver. This was the list I played for reference;

Creatures - 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemisis
1 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Spells - 19
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Painful Truths

Planeswalkers 3
1 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
2 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts 2
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 21
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Counterspell
1 Notion Thief

Round 1 ANT (2-0)
Game 1: I have 2 deathrite's in play, he cabal therapies hitting the 2 fow in my hand and sees a tnn. next turn he therapies the tnn in my hand. he combos for exact lethal but with the 2 drs i eat my tnn and go to 2 life. after a few turns of eating his grave he scoops.
Game 2: I thoughtseize him seeing a hand of rituals and dark petition. I play meddling mage naming dark petition. beatdown with mage wins the game.

Round 2 D&T (1-2)
Game 1: I dont remember too much about this game other than flickerwisp + vial fucked my world.
Game 2: tnn with jitte carries that game.
Game 3: veryyyyy long game with him having a heavy mana denial hand with wasteland/port. I sorta climb out of it with snapcasters/drs and soon there is a clogged board. I supreme verdict the board and both of us are hellbent but he has a sword of feast and famine. he draws mom and thalia while i get a leovold and jitte, but it was too late.

Round 3 BUG Delver (2-1)
Game 1: jace the mind sculpter + liliana of the veil + tnn won me the game
Game 2: golgari charm kills my tnn and maelstrom pulses my batterskull then abrupt decays my jitte. next game
Game 3: long game, we both keep very reactive hands but neither of us do anything for awhile. we both play creatures that all die to removal. we both get hellbent and i get a top deck batterskull then a tnn that wins me the game.

After thoughts: Cutting the karakas seemed worth it in the meta I'm currently in at the moment, not a whole lot of targets to bounce and overall kinda meh. I need to change my sideboard a bit to have more game against delver, I didn't have too much in the board to bring it.

Overall I really like the list I'm currently running, but would make minor changes to the sideboard.

whocansay
04-27-2017, 08:18 AM
So I'm curious, In Japan some lists run Tasigur in the main. But with how widespread Karakas is in the format, do you think it's worth it to jam him anyways? I like how he can improve the mid-late game with reoccuring spells without having to use snapcaster, but I'm not super sold on him. Just curious what you all think about it.

Do you have a link to some of these decklists by any chance?

MrFrowny_
04-27-2017, 10:36 AM
Do you have a link to some of these decklists by any chance?

Here's a few I found;

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14941&d=290242&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14993&d=290675&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14595&d=287539&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14595&d=287541&f=LE

First_Revenge
04-27-2017, 12:24 PM
Anecdotal evidence, but from what I’ve heard the Japanese meta is different than what we’ve got over here. I’ve heard that miracles is very popular over there, which may be why tasigur seems to pop up on Japanese lists but not American ones(as far as I can tell anyway). I’ve tried tasigur but that was a while ago. Personally, I don’t really like him, for a few reasons, which I’ll outline below. These are just my thoughts, feel free to critique/criticize me.

Pros:
1. Doesn’t die to AD or fatal push
2. Can provide card advantage
3. Fairly beefy body
4. If you play DRS, you could potentially favorably sculpt your graveyard to increase your odds of being handed a good spell.

Cons:
1. Dies to gurmag angler/tombstalker. I see both of these cards potentially being huge players in the upcoming meta, hell these guys have been turning up in my shop for weeks. Having a 5/5 cast against your 4/5 is so awkward.
2. It’s “quasi” card advantage. The problem is really you’re giving your opponent a choice. I’ve been handed useless cards about as often as I’m handed useful ones. Which brings me to my next con.
3. 4 mana. That’s JTMS mana. 4 mana in legacy usually means you’re about to win this game. This is a lot of mana to be paying for a spin at the roulette wheel.
4. No evasion, same problem as gurmag, beefy body but can get chumped indefinitely.
5. IF DRS becomes the king of legacy, it makes generating meaningful card advantage more difficult. DRS may eat the meaningful spells left over after you delve away the chaff. With an active DRS you’d essentially be forced to flip over a meaningful spell and a land to get anything worthwhile.

As much as I want to like him he feels like he’s trying to be card advantage and a beater at the same time, but he seems to be mediocre at both. At 4/5 he’ll die to the other delve fatties seeing play. Paying 4 mana to get a card back even at instant speed is really expensive. And it’s a card of your opponent’s choosing so you could just be handed jank.

I think you have to pick what you want, do you want a body or do you want cards? If you want a body I’d try tombstalker, a 5/5 with evasion is actually surprisingly effective and tough to answer without swords. Also he eats delvers for breakfast. If you want cards try painful truths, it’s 3 mana and at sorcery speed, but in grindy matchups it can put games away.

Kaono
04-27-2017, 12:37 PM
Biggest con to Tasigur IMO is that he is bounced by Karakas and then likely rots in your hand for the rest of the game.

First_Revenge
04-27-2017, 01:16 PM
Biggest con to Tasigur IMO is that he is bounced by Karakas and then likely rots in your hand for the rest of the game.

Ya forgot to list that one, which is a huge con

whocansay
04-27-2017, 02:27 PM
Here's a few I found;

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14941&d=290242&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14993&d=290675&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14595&d=287539&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14595&d=287541&f=LE

Well, one of those was in Portugal, for what it's worth :)

But yeah, not one Deathblade deck in there... I think the lack of synergy with DRS doesn't help.

First_Revenge
04-27-2017, 02:47 PM
Well, one of those was in Portugal, for what it's worth :)

But yeah, not one Deathblade deck in there... I think the lack of synergy with DRS doesn't help.

Could be... I mean a core tenant of our deck is dropping a T2 TNN or Leovold. That doesn't even mention the opposing DRS that could be taxing your yard.


Just curious how severely are your deathblade lists changing? I'm probably flexing around 3-4 slots MD and 2 slots SB due to the whole miracles thing

MrFrowny_
04-27-2017, 04:45 PM
Could be... I mean a core tenant of our deck is dropping a T2 TNN or Leovold. That doesn't even mention the opposing DRS that could be taxing your yard.


Just curious how severely are your deathblade lists changing? I'm probably flexing around 3-4 slots MD and 2 slots SB due to the whole miracles thing

Not too much, probably only 1-2 MD and 1-2 side.

tescrin
04-28-2017, 01:51 AM
Was running a true Esper deck since I don't have to run Decay and did 1-1-1 but they were close.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Tombstalker
2 Tidehollow SCuller
2 Wasteland Strangler

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 wasteland
8 fetch
3 usea
3 tundra
1 trop
1 scrubland
1 swamp

2-1 Infect
* Tombstalker beats did most of the work. Lots my equps to Viridian Corrupter every game, which was spicy.

0-2 Sneak
* G1 Emmy T3
* G2 I could've containment Priested T2, but he was on 1 island, so I figured a Sculler was safe first. BS in response, 2 S&T and a Tomb in hand. Shit.

1-1-1 Nic Fit (Jund)
* G1 Tombstalker eventually gets there after a Deed, some Pfires, and other stuf
* G2 We both mull to 6 or 5. He struggles on mana for awhile but eventually climbs to a PTitan and I keep missing critical turns by 1 mana.
* G3 Game ends with me on double DRS, Strix, SFM, and I'm about to draw Tombstalker. 19 to 3. Damn it.

Not sure what I'd change. Things went pretty smoothly. Anyone running Gurmag is missing out. Tombstalker is WAY better. I was flying over all kinds of obnoxiousness. I brought him as a way to subdue the expected BUG decks that can't TNN him.


I think I may change my TNNs and Scullers to more real cards. I think sculler should be Hymn, TNN should be... don't know. I'll start with Hymn for Sculler I think and go from there. TNN might move to Snapcaster but evasion is good. Maybe 1 land should be that one that creatures 1/1 flyers.


NOTES:
A few things to consider going forward.
* Flying is big. TNN can't fly and everyone is banking on TNN being an evasive stonewall
* Big mana costs are a huge deal. Decay + Push => anything Delve, and other cheaty costs is big. Crusader and TNN also get around that.
* Mana denial is going to start becoming a thing big time as decks get lower to the ground. I'd probably move farther from 4-colors and get 1-2 basics in there.


Local looked like:
1 Burn
2 Nic Fit
1 Infect
1 Sneak Show
1 Reanimator/StifleNought hybrid
1 Esper
1 TES
1 Shardless
1 Pox
1 D&T
1-2 BUG
1 Elves
0-3 ?

Don't remember exactly how many or what they'd be,

MrFrowny_
04-28-2017, 10:51 AM
Was running a true Esper deck since I don't have to run Decay and did 1-1-1 but they were close.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Tombstalker
2 Tidehollow SCuller
2 Wasteland Strangler

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 wasteland
8 fetch
3 usea
3 tundra
1 trop
1 scrubland
1 swamp

2-1 Infect
* Tombstalker beats did most of the work. Lots my equps to Viridian Corrupter every game, which was spicy.

0-2 Sneak
* G1 Emmy T3
* G2 I could've containment Priested T2, but he was on 1 island, so I figured a Sculler was safe first. BS in response, 2 S&T and a Tomb in hand. Shit.

1-1-1 Nic Fit (Jund)
* G1 Tombstalker eventually gets there after a Deed, some Pfires, and other stuf
* G2 We both mull to 6 or 5. He struggles on mana for awhile but eventually climbs to a PTitan and I keep missing critical turns by 1 mana.
* G3 Game ends with me on double DRS, Strix, SFM, and I'm about to draw Tombstalker. 19 to 3. Damn it.

Not sure what I'd change. Things went pretty smoothly. Anyone running Gurmag is missing out. Tombstalker is WAY better. I was flying over all kinds of obnoxiousness. I brought him as a way to subdue the expected BUG decks that can't TNN him.


I think I may change my TNNs and Scullers to more real cards. I think sculler should be Hymn, TNN should be... don't know. I'll start with Hymn for Sculler I think and go from there. TNN might move to Snapcaster but evasion is good. Maybe 1 land should be that one that creatures 1/1 flyers.


NOTES:
A few things to consider going forward.
* Flying is big. TNN can't fly and everyone is banking on TNN being an evasive stonewall
* Big mana costs are a huge deal. Decay + Push => anything Delve, and other cheaty costs is big. Crusader and TNN also get around that.
* Mana denial is going to start becoming a thing big time as decks get lower to the ground. I'd probably move farther from 4-colors and get 1-2 basics in there.


Local looked like:
1 Burn
2 Nic Fit
1 Infect
1 Sneak Show
1 Reanimator/StifleNought hybrid
1 Esper
1 TES
1 Shardless
1 Pox
1 D&T
1-2 BUG
1 Elves
0-3 ?

Don't remember exactly how many or what they'd be,

Interesting.. I haven't really seen Blade decks that run Tidehollow or Wasteland Strangler or even Daze... I don't know how I feel about that list.

First off, daze is always pretty bad in blade decks because you're not a tempo deck, you're a midrange/control deck. So you want to be hitting your land drops every turn so you can play the batterskull that gets stuck in your hand or Jace. The exception to that rule is if you're running multiple mana dorks like bantblade, they're running 4 noble hierarch and 4 deathrite shaman. That's why they can get away with playing daze. But you're not evening running a lot of the top heavy cards so it doesn't matter too much.

Secondly, the wasteland Strangler and Tidehollow could be traded out for snapcaster mages and regular discard like thoughseize/inquisition. But I like the little combo it allows where you can exile cards from their hand and they never get them back.

I mean, if the list is working for you and you're winning then keep doing what you're doing! It just looks like a weird deadguy ale hybrid to me.

First_Revenge
04-28-2017, 12:30 PM
Was running a true Esper deck since I don't have to run Decay and did 1-1-1 but they were close.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Tombstalker
2 Tidehollow SCuller
2 Wasteland Strangler

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 wasteland
8 fetch
3 usea
3 tundra
1 trop
1 scrubland
1 swamp

2-1 Infect
* Tombstalker beats did most of the work. Lots my equps to Viridian Corrupter every game, which was spicy.

0-2 Sneak
* G1 Emmy T3
* G2 I could've containment Priested T2, but he was on 1 island, so I figured a Sculler was safe first. BS in response, 2 S&T and a Tomb in hand. Shit.

1-1-1 Nic Fit (Jund)
* G1 Tombstalker eventually gets there after a Deed, some Pfires, and other stuf
* G2 We both mull to 6 or 5. He struggles on mana for awhile but eventually climbs to a PTitan and I keep missing critical turns by 1 mana.
* G3 Game ends with me on double DRS, Strix, SFM, and I'm about to draw Tombstalker. 19 to 3. Damn it.

Not sure what I'd change. Things went pretty smoothly. Anyone running Gurmag is missing out. Tombstalker is WAY better. I was flying over all kinds of obnoxiousness. I brought him as a way to subdue the expected BUG decks that can't TNN him.


I think I may change my TNNs and Scullers to more real cards. I think sculler should be Hymn, TNN should be... don't know. I'll start with Hymn for Sculler I think and go from there. TNN might move to Snapcaster but evasion is good. Maybe 1 land should be that one that creatures 1/1 flyers.


NOTES:
A few things to consider going forward.
* Flying is big. TNN can't fly and everyone is banking on TNN being an evasive stonewall
* Big mana costs are a huge deal. Decay + Push => anything Delve, and other cheaty costs is big. Crusader and TNN also get around that.
* Mana denial is going to start becoming a thing big time as decks get lower to the ground. I'd probably move farther from 4-colors and get 1-2 basics in there.


Local looked like:
1 Burn
2 Nic Fit
1 Infect
1 Sneak Show
1 Reanimator/StifleNought hybrid
1 Esper
1 TES
1 Shardless
1 Pox
1 D&T
1-2 BUG
1 Elves
0-3 ?

Don't remember exactly how many or what they'd be,



It’s an interesting list, feels more aggro than control. It’s kinda tough to evaluate since you’re pretty far off the norm for a deathblade list.

A few comments. I’m not sure about baleful strix. I get why he’s good, but given the meta going forward I can’t help but imagine it’s better to outright kill your target than have a strix hovering around. I personally converted these to fatal pushes as I expect the game to get flooded by cheap critters.

I feel like thoughtseize is just better than tidehollow. Costs one less mana and gets rid of the card for good. I kinda get what you’re trying to do, thoughtseize them and get an aggro body out of it. But I don’t even think you get a body out of it. If you really do get a key card under the sculler you can’t really toss him into combat against anything, so the body seems like a moot point.

Wasteland strangler? I’ve never really considered this card. 3 mana feels kinda expensive. I just don’t have enough experience to say anything concrete about this card, but my suspicion is that you’d like snapcasters more as they end up costing the same when you snap back a spell.

I kinda like the idea of daze. I mean as the meta gets lower to the ground daze does seem to make sense in a certain light. That being said, as Frowny already expressed, stoneblade isn’t a tempo deck so from that point of view daze doesn’t really make sense. Personally I’d probably turn these into other spells like spell pierce/thoughtseize/counterspell/ponder, etc...

Just a general feeling, but it seems like you’re pretty soft to combo. You only have 4 real hard counters, dazes can slow them down, but once they realize you’re running them they should adjust and dazes become useless. I get what you’re trying to do with tidehollow, but again I’d be nervous tying up a key card under a vanilla 2/2. I’d have to see more combo matches from your deck to know for sure.

It is good to hear that tombstalker is working out for you, I’ve been considering sliding one into my deck.

Regarding your manabase, it looks pretty dicey. For starters you run 20 lands, the average, at least on this board is 21-22. So you’re one land short already. Then you also run 3 wastelands, the average is 2 wastelands. Which means you run 17 color sources while the average is around 19-20 color sources. This issue is further compounded by a lack of basics and no ponders. I wouldn’t lean too heavily on DRS as a mana source since he’s probably going to be the new king of legacy and has a huge target on his back. It also seems like blood moon might become a lot more common so basics might be pretty important.

That being said, I do like 3 wastelands, but I suspect the 3rd wasteland you want to include will come at the cost of one of your spells rather than one of your blue sources. That’s the debate im having in my head anyway. For reference here’s my manabase:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island

tescrin
04-28-2017, 03:08 PM
The big takeaway was Tombstalker being good.

Thoughts on people's thoughts:
* Strix felt meh. He's mostly there to shore up Delver/Edrazi since I didn't know what to expect. Not sure what to think here.
* Tidehollow was meh. Was trying him next to Strangler but is completely unnecessary
* Strangler was alright. I could see going to Snaps. He was tossed in because I'd never used him and always wanted to give him a shot.
* Tombstalker -> Casted every time without issue. Crushed souls when they saw 5/5 flying :D
* Manabase -> I could see adding a land. Didn't really have any issues. I think the perception people have is coming from Decay, but green being an anti-Dredge/Reanimator color rather than a mainstay is probably the difference
* DGA -> yeah it is sort of a weird hybrid

On combo:
* Don't know. Wasteland and Cliques help
* most of the sideboard was geared that direction. Scullers count, but they were meh, as mentioned


I think I'll be on Bant the next local. The loss to SneakShow is burning in my brain and Wasting people with KotR sounds entertaining. I just reported mostly for the Tombstalker and the meta, obviously not a crazy finish to an evening :D.

MrFrowny_
04-28-2017, 06:07 PM
The big takeaway was Tombstalker being good.

Thoughts on people's thoughts:
* Strix felt meh. He's mostly there to shore up Delver/Edrazi since I didn't know what to expect. Not sure what to think here.
* Tidehollow was meh. Was trying him next to Strangler but is completely unnecessary
* Strangler was alright. I could see going to Snaps. He was tossed in because I'd never used him and always wanted to give him a shot.
* Tombstalker -> Casted every time without issue. Crushed souls when they saw 5/5 flying :D
* Manabase -> I could see adding a land. Didn't really have any issues. I think the perception people have is coming from Decay, but green being an anti-Dredge/Reanimator color rather than a mainstay is probably the difference
* DGA -> yeah it is sort of a weird hybrid

On combo:
* Don't know. Wasteland and Cliques help
* most of the sideboard was geared that direction. Scullers count, but they were meh, as mentioned


I think I'll be on Bant the next local. The loss to SneakShow is burning in my brain and Wasting people with KotR sounds entertaining. I just reported mostly for the Tombstalker and the meta, obviously not a crazy finish to an evening :D.

Yeah I've been debating on trying tombstalker and from your report it seems like he could be really good, I'll probably replace the strix spot with him.

Neo900
04-29-2017, 07:58 AM
I play Tombstalker for a long time now. He is greagz. Comes as a one off in good situations and ends the game fast. Also Baleful Strix is quite. Strix trades 2:1. If the opponent doesn't remove it, we are able to equip it and hit always thanks to flying. Especially swords benefits from evasion. Tidehollow skuller seems okay. He brings pressure in form of his 2/2 body and exiles a card (temporarily). Wasteland Stranglee doesn't seem good at all. The issue is that his ability is an etb trigger.
Daze works against us. We have to develope and gain resources to get constant pressure on the opponent. Tempo cards like daze are good while you have a fast clock on the board like delver. But we need the mana for 2 drops, 3 drops, even 4 drops. By taking a land back to our hand we loose pressure and control over the board.
Besides that I'm not a fan of playing 8 mana dorks. Deathrite is great. He generates pressure with his other abilities. Exalted is okay but attacking for 3 or 4 makes not a difference when our creature becomes blocked. Also is drawing a noble hierarch (and often deathrite shaman) in the late game quite bad.

Gesendet von meinem HTC One mit Tapatalk

MrFrowny_
05-02-2017, 03:41 PM
So how is everyone else adapting to the new meta so far? I feel like we are positioned better now that miracles is officially gone (not just Deathblade, mostly all blade decks are taking the mantel as the control decks).

I've officially dropped the Karakas in my list and haven't been missing it.

I'm also thinking about dropping Liliana of the Veil from my list and maybe running her in the sideboard, I feel like bumping the Jace count up more instead of trying to run multiple Planeswalkers in the main and making our color requirements even more intensive.

CptHaddock
05-02-2017, 03:50 PM
So how is everyone else adapting to the new meta so far? I feel like we are positioned better now that miracles is officially gone (not just Deathblade, mostly all blade decks are taking the mantel as the control decks).

I've officially dropped the Karakas in my list and haven't been missing it.

I'm also thinking about dropping Liliana of the Veil from my list and maybe running her in the sideboard, I feel like bumping the Jace count up more instead of trying to run multiple Planeswalkers in the main and making our color requirements even more intensive.

Not deathblade but from the stoneblade side it's certainly great to not question your life decisions when you have counterspell and sfm in the same deck and the deck is still kind of playable.

tescrin
05-02-2017, 05:00 PM
I've officially dropped the Karakas in my list and haven't been missing it.

I'm also thinking about dropping Liliana of the Veil from my list

I feel like doing this right when Combo is likely to uptick (especially Reanimator/Sneakshow) seems bad. Lily and Karakas are both main-deck hate against those decks while viable elsewhere.

i mean, no skin off of my nose, but it seems like you'd be adding those in instead of taking them out.

MrFrowny_
05-02-2017, 05:28 PM
I feel like doing this right when Combo is likely to uptick (especially Reanimator/Sneakshow) seems bad. Lily and Karakas are both main-deck hate against those decks while viable elsewhere.

i mean, no skin off of my nose, but it seems like you'd be adding those in instead of taking them out.

If for some reason my meta sporadically changed to lots of Sneak and Show I might add the Karakas back in just as some kind of hate against the deck. But I feel Liliana comes in a little too late or doesn't put any pressure on my opponent. Against storm/dredge/reanimator/elves, it's always been too slow to play. But that's just my personal experience.

First_Revenge
05-02-2017, 08:47 PM
So how is everyone else adapting to the new meta so far? I feel like we are positioned better now that miracles is officially gone (not just Deathblade, mostly all blade decks are taking the mantel as the control decks).

I've officially dropped the Karakas in my list and haven't been missing it.

I'm also thinking about dropping Liliana of the Veil from my list and maybe running her in the sideboard, I feel like bumping the Jace count up more instead of trying to run multiple Planeswalkers in the main and making our color requirements even more intensive.

I’ll take a stab at it, here’s my deathblade list in our bold new post top world. I have it sleeved up and ready to go, but I missed my local event this week so I won’t actually get to test it until next Monday.

The list:
Lands-21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Creatures-14

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker


Spells: 23

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares


Artifacts: 2

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte


Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction


This list shouldn’t look too different from shells I’ve been running in the past, but I’ve made some small but important adjustments. Here are the cards that changed in the maindeck

-1 Baleful Strix
-1 Vindicate
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Tombstalker

Before delving into particulars, if you haven’t noticed there are 6 point removal spells, 4 STP and 2 Fatal Push. This is probably the biggest thing to come out of the top ban. I expect creature decks like delver/deathrite/elves to be everywhere. The additional 2 fatal pushes make me feel a lot better against creature decks. It should be noted that if DRS really does become the next big thing in legacy, being able to kill a DRS could be viewed as a form of mana denial. Coupled with wastelands in the maindeck it could be pretty good.

Also I’m very big on having basics, I’ve never really liked 4C deathblade builds and the super shaky manabases that go along with it. I felt we became a 4C built to incorporate AD against miracles. With miracles gone I just don’t see AD being worth it. I’d consider my build to be 3.5C deathblade, splashing green for the odd DRS activation/leovold. As a rule I generally only play spells I can cast off my basics, the only two exceptions being leovold because he’s a straight up baller, and tombstalker which is on a trial basis right now. A lot of stuff I’m reading seems to indicate non basic hate will rise, so I’m even more firm in my belief that basics are important.

I took out baleful strix because it always seemed like a great card vs eldrazi, but pretty mediocre everywhere else. With eldrazi posed to take a dive it seemed like an easy cut. Replaced it with a fatal push since it seemed better to just outright murder their critter.

Vindicate just got too slow. At 3 mana it kinda worked as anti countertop tech since 3 mana can be kinda hard for them to come by. But as the meta got faster and fatal push got printed this just seems too slow. Replaced with fatal push, farewell old friend you will be missed.

Stoneforge mystic. This one I really agonized over, and I’m not sure it’s the right call. With the advent of fatal push and all these bug decks, the reality is making her stick may just be too big of a task. As a threat she’s a known quantity so just about everyone has a way to deal with her. So I cut one of her for a tombstalker, a more unusual threat which is harder to deal with. Time will tell if this is was a mistake or not.

I want to include an additional wasteland, snapcaster mage, or painful truths, but I just don’t have the room or I just don’t know what I’d cut at this time.

Here’s what happened to the sideboard:
-2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Path to Exile

I’ll be honest, I never liked abrupt decay. I don’t like that this card was really the reason deathblade became a 4c deck with a fragile manabase. With miracles gone I cut these cards with glee and never looked back.

Engineered explosives got put in as a 4th “sweeper” for creatures. Perhaps more importantly it got slotted in as an answer for chalice. If I start seeing more chalices in my meta I suspect I will just run more engineered.

Path to exile is a card I’m really interested in following. If greedy BUG decks or lands ends up taking over the meta path to exile seems really well positioned. Against BUG it’s a slightly better STP. Against lands it seems like a beating since they don’t even get the 20 life they normally would.

Feel free to critique, this is my first blind stab at this new meta we’re all looking at.

MrFrowny_
05-03-2017, 12:59 AM
I’ll take a stab at it, here’s my deathblade list in our bold new post top world. I have it sleeved up and ready to go, but I missed my local event this week so I won’t actually get to test it until next Monday.

The list:
Lands-21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Creatures-14

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker


Spells: 23

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares


Artifacts: 2

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte


Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction



I like your list quite a bit. I would like more removal in my list like fatal push.

I've also determined that 3 stoneforge mystic is the way to go nowadays. You don't want to fully revolve around her in the deck because of how much removal there is and have a stuck batterskull in your hand, but she's still a core piece of the deck. You just don't ever want to see more than 1-2 per game.

This is my list for reference;

Creatures - 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Baleful Strix
1 Vendillion Clique

Spells - 19
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
1 Painful Truths
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers - 3
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts - 2
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands - 21
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

I really want to drop the Liliana of the Veil's from my list. They haven't been doing too much and I want something else, I'm just not sure what. I've also debated adding a 3rd Tundra and putting a Council's Judgement in. I also feel like I need to add a Karakas in the main... Overall I feel like I just need to take the deck apart and start from scratch.

Also my sideboard is in constant flux at the moment so I decided not to post it lol.

Neo900
05-03-2017, 08:03 AM
My meta is full of BuG decks. Aluren and food chain especially. So I cut Abrupt Decay and play Krosan grip in this slot. Krosan Grip hits Aluren, Food chain, Stoneblade, Omniscience and Stompy decks with their chalice and thorn of amethyst.
Besides that I play 4 sfm and as 3rd equipment Sword of Light and Shadow. Solas gives my creatures pro Fatal Push, Decay and Swords to Plowshares. The abilities are crazy in grindy match ups. The lifegain is okay but the black ability allows me to generate so much card advantage by bringing back Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix and block in combat.
Batterskull and Solas make 9 life per turn and is unblockable for baleful strix which was always a problem.

Gesendet von meinem HTC One mit Tapatalk

First_Revenge
05-03-2017, 12:34 PM
I like your list quite a bit. I would like more removal in my list like fatal push.

I've also determined that 3 stoneforge mystic is the way to go nowadays. You don't want to fully revolve around her in the deck because of how much removal there is and have a stuck batterskull in your hand, but she's still a core piece of the deck. You just don't ever want to see more than 1-2 per game.

This is my list for reference;

Creatures - 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Baleful Strix
1 Vendillion Clique

Spells - 19
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
1 Painful Truths
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers - 3
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts - 2
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands - 21
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

I really want to drop the Liliana of the Veil's from my list. They haven't been doing too much and I want something else, I'm just not sure what. I've also debated adding a 3rd Tundra and putting a Council's Judgement in. I also feel like I need to add a Karakas in the main... Overall I feel like I just need to take the deck apart and start from scratch.

Also my sideboard is in constant flux at the moment so I decided not to post it lol.

Ya so for you. Like I said I’m not a fan of baleful so much anymore. So we could probably get rid of that.

I don’t think you need AD maindeck anymore either, the green in the casting cost could be problematic.

LotV could probably go too. The BB casting cost is kinda tough, and I’ve been of the mind that she doesn’t really synergize with what we want to do. Her +1 is great, but we don’t really have cards we can just throw away without consequences. It was brought up somewhere early in this thread that she was included as a great miracles beater. But with that deck out of the format I’m not sure if she’s warranted.

For your manabase you could probably go down to a single green source, assuming you cut the decays. I also don’t know what’s in your SB so it’s hard for me to say if this is a good move.

MrFrowny_
05-03-2017, 12:44 PM
Ya so for you. Like I said I’m not a fan of baleful so much anymore. So we could probably get rid of that.

I don’t think you need AD maindeck anymore either, the green in the casting cost could be problematic.

LotV could probably go too. The BB casting cost is kinda tough, and I’ve been of the mind that she doesn’t really synergize with what we want to do. Her +1 is great, but we don’t really have cards we can just throw away without consequences. It was brought up somewhere early in this thread that she was included as a great miracles beater. But with that deck out of the format I’m not sure if she’s warranted.

For your manabase you could probably go down to a single green source, assuming you cut the decays. I also don’t know what’s in your SB so it’s hard for me to say if this is a good move.

I honestly want to drop the AD and the Leovold for a simpler manabase but they put in so much work for me that it's just hard to do. AD kills opposing equipment and Liliana's, and Leovold kils opposing card draw. I'll probably end up keeping the green in the main for now until I decide otherwise. But I'm for sure dropping the Lili's and adding Jace's in place of her. Also the Baleful Strix I might drop for something... Maybe a Tombstalker or another spell of some-sort

My Sideboard at the moment is this;

2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle

First_Revenge
05-04-2017, 01:32 PM
I honestly want to drop the AD and the Leovold for a simpler manabase but they put in so much work for me that it's just hard to do. AD kills opposing equipment and Liliana's, and Leovold kils opposing card draw. I'll probably end up keeping the green in the main for now until I decide otherwise. But I'm for sure dropping the Lili's and adding Jace's in place of her. Also the Baleful Strix I might drop for something... Maybe a Tombstalker or another spell of some-sort

My Sideboard at the moment is this;

2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle

Ya even I couldn’t justify cutting leovold despite my relative dislike of super greedy manabases, he’s just so good. AD is your call, I mean we are going to always have some amount of green anyway for DRS anti reanimator tech. The question is whether that green mana is worth potentially getting wastelanded over, assuming you don’t have a DRS to generate the green mana. I find leovold worth the risk, AD not so much.

Sideboard looks solid, only thing I have mixed feelings on is supreme verdict. The problem for me has always been the casting cost, at 1WWU, it is both expensive to cast and extremely color intensive. A lot of creature decks like grixis, bug, dnt, eldrazi, etc... run wasteland. WWU will force you to fetch non basics, opening you up to wasteland. Then there’s other matchups like dnt which runs wasteland, port, and thalia all of which make actually casting a verdict really difficult. I prefer toxic deluge in this spot, it’s cheaper and way less color intensive.

MrFrowny_
05-04-2017, 05:00 PM
Ya even I couldn’t justify cutting leovold despite my relative dislike of super greedy manabases, he’s just so good. AD is your call, I mean we are going to always have some amount of green anyway for DRS anti reanimator tech. The question is whether that green mana is worth potentially getting wastelanded over, assuming you don’t have a DRS to generate the green mana. I find leovold worth the risk, AD not so much.

Sideboard looks solid, only thing I have mixed feelings on is supreme verdict. The problem for me has always been the casting cost, at 1WWU, it is both expensive to cast and extremely color intensive. A lot of creature decks like grixis, bug, dnt, eldrazi, etc... run wasteland. WWU will force you to fetch non basics, opening you up to wasteland. Then there’s other matchups like dnt which runs wasteland, port, and thalia all of which make actually casting a verdict really difficult. I prefer toxic deluge in this spot, it’s cheaper and way less color intensive.

I agree, I've also decided what I'm going to modify the main deck with;

-2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Marsh Flats
-1 Bayou

+1 Karakas
+1 Councils Judgement
+1 Tundra
+2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

First_Revenge
05-04-2017, 06:12 PM
I agree, I've also decided what I'm going to modify the main deck with;

-2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Marsh Flats
-1 Bayou

+1 Karakas
+1 Councils Judgement
+1 Tundra
+2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lol sorry to keep doing this to you, I’ve been doing this a lot in my own head so i’ve got a lot of ideas that want out.

Karakas is a meta call, if you see enough need for it go ahead. If you don’t need it maybe a wasteland in this position?

I think you only need +1 JTMS for a total of 2 copies maindeck. 3 is pretty excessive. You have 4 brainstorms and 2 ponders so you should be able to find one in the late game. Drawing even one JTMS in your opening 7 is pretty miserable, let alone 2. You also have painful truths to generate card advantage which seems to make 3 jtms kinda overkill in my book.

MrFrowny_
05-04-2017, 07:22 PM
Lol sorry to keep doing this to you, I’ve been doing this a lot in my own head so i’ve got a lot of ideas that want out.

Karakas is a meta call, if you see enough need for it go ahead. If you don’t need it maybe a wasteland in this position?

I think you only need +1 JTMS for a total of 2 copies maindeck. 3 is pretty excessive. You have 4 brainstorms and 2 ponders so you should be able to find one in the late game. Drawing even one JTMS in your opening 7 is pretty miserable, let alone 2. You also have painful truths to generate card advantage which seems to make 3 jtms kinda overkill in my book.

Ok I get what you're saying.

I brought in the karakas because 3 of the players in our meta decided to build show and tell lol... and I get what you're saying with jace, I'll have to think of something else to bring in. What would you suggest?

Theonlyone
05-04-2017, 11:13 PM
Hello, is this the place to discuss the dark bant blade deck like the list of Christopher Wilhelm who top8ed at mkm Frankfurt last weekend?

MrFrowny_
05-04-2017, 11:19 PM
Hello, is this the place to discuss the dark bant blade deck like the list of Christopher Wilhelm who top8ed at mkm Frankfurt last weekend?

I believe the correct primer would be this one;

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant

But I guess you could consider any blade deck that runs Deathrite Shaman a Deathblade deck so I don't mind if you want to discuss it here.

Theonlyone
05-04-2017, 11:23 PM
Thanks for the nice answer!

First_Revenge
05-05-2017, 03:16 AM
Ok I get what you're saying.

I brought in the karakas because 3 of the players in our meta decided to build show and tell lol... and I get what you're saying with jace, I'll have to think of something else to bring in. What would you suggest?

Ya in that case karakas sounds like a sane thing to include.

Uhh up to you really, part of the fun of stoneblade are all the fun one offs based on your meta:
Aggro-Try tombstalker? Short of a STP, surprisingly hard to kill. Eats up delvers and flies over locked up boards like a champ.
Killspell-Try fatal push? Maybe an engineered explosives? If you expect a lot of critters bring another gun to shoot them with.
Countermagic-Spell pierce? Flusterstorm? Spell Snare? If you expect combo packing another way to say no never seems to hurt.

Neo900
05-05-2017, 07:03 AM
I would rather cut a Jace than Liliana. With all the Turn 3 combo decks discard is our friend. That's the reason why I moved Sword of Light and Shadow to the sideboard. It's great for grindy match ups. And I moved Thoughtseize to the main again. First turn discard, second turn stoneforge is a huge tempo advantage. Krosan Grip is still my favorite card in my sideboard. Hits so much cards right now.

MrFrowny_
05-05-2017, 04:52 PM
I would rather cut a Jace than Liliana. With all the Turn 3 combo decks discard is our friend. That's the reason why I moved Sword of Light and Shadow to the sideboard. It's great for grindy match ups. And I moved Thoughtseize to the main again. First turn discard, second turn stoneforge is a huge tempo advantage. Krosan Grip is still my favorite card in my sideboard. Hits so much cards right now.

I've been thinking about putting a Sword of Feast and Famine in the deck just because of how much combo is going around. And I'm currently running 3 1-mana discard spells but I might move up to 4-5.

MrFrowny_
05-11-2017, 11:03 AM
So I played in my weekly tournament at my LGS yesterday with this list;

Creatures 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells 19
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Pierce
1 Painful Truths
1 Council's Judgement

Equipment 2
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands 21
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle

I went 1-2 overall yesterday, not too great but it happens

Round 1 - Aggro Loam (2-0) W
Game 1 - DRS + True-Name beats, he didn't really get anything going except for a Knight that I council's judgemented
Game 2 - I IoK his liliana turn 2, then turn 3 tombstalker; he doesn't have an answer for it

Round 2 - Dredge (0-2) L
Game 1 - He does the dredge thing and I can't do anything
Game 2 - I have an opening hand of 3 STP and a containment priest, i have to swords 2 narcos so he can't cabal therapy my hand, i misplayed the containment priest and he firestormed it, i couldn't recover after that

Round 3 - Eldrazi Taxes (1-2) L
Game 1 - I get a True-Name + Jtms in play and ride them to victory
Game 2 - he gets a chalice on 1 and 2... Then a thoughtknot...
Game 3 - he gets a chalice on 1 and i don't have an answer for it, the board got extremely stalled out so I had to supreme verdict the board, he emptied his hand again with 3 creatures on the board and thoughtknot took my snapcaster which would've supreme verdict again... very long game

whocansay
05-12-2017, 11:32 AM
Do we like Lingering Souls in our deck?

MrFrowny_
05-14-2017, 02:27 PM
Do we like Lingering Souls in our deck?

So typically people only run Lingering Souls in Esper Stoneblade but if you're running a heavy white version of Deathblade then you could definitely make it work.

Neo900
05-14-2017, 02:59 PM
Lingering Souls is great with Liliana of the Veil.
Flying is great with equipment.
I am still a huge fan of Bitterblossom (and Lingering Souls) and if your meta allows to play this cards then I would consider to play Bitterblossom again.

tescrin
05-14-2017, 08:02 PM
Lingering Souls is great with Liliana of the Veil.
Flying is great with equipment.
I am still a huge fan of Bitterblossom (and Lingering Souls) and if your meta allows to play this cards then I would consider to play Bitterblossom again.

I too am a fan of the Blossom. It requires a Decay or QPM from the opponent, and they don't just have a thousand of those. The more blossoms they bust, the less Equips/Dudes they bust. Honestly, I'm trying a 1-of Manriki-Gusari in the main so I can grind. My non-fair MUs in Bant/Esper (the list is 90% the same) has been 85+% win rate:
Loss SneakShow 0-2 (Esper)
Win Infect 2-0 [Esper]
Win Infect 2-1 [Bant]
Win Elves 2-0 [Bant]
Win Elves 2-0 [Bant]
Win Aluren 2-1 [Bant]
Win Lands 2-0 [Esper]

over the last few weeks, but my fair MUs have been meh:
Draw Czech Pile 1-1-1 [Bant]
Draw UW Stoneblade 1-1-1 [Bant]
Win Patriot Standstill 2-0 [Bant]
Loss Esper Control 0-2 [Bant]


I was driven to Bant, being a very similar list for me, because I wanted KotR to deal with Sneakshow as I anticipated an influx and my loss was biting. That said, I'm now looking to Esper again as their aren't good token cards below 4-mana in non-black. I don't want to bother you guys too much unless my list performs well this week/next; so I'll just say *it's pretty god damned spicy* and we'll see if it does anything :p.

This meta demands spicy, and I eat habanero's straight on my sandwich.

Munchyman
05-14-2017, 10:37 PM
With all lingering souls bitter blossom talk. Along with all the mana dorks I'm surprised no one is talking about Opposition now. Besides some decks like storm. Opposition seems like the best tech vs almost everything being played.

tescrin
05-15-2017, 01:11 AM
With all lingering souls bitter blossom talk. Along with all the mana dorks I'm surprised no one is talking about Opposition now. Besides some decks like storm. Opposition seems like the best tech vs almost everything being played.

I'll say, it's pretty bad vs. Leo :p

whocansay
05-15-2017, 05:30 AM
Tescrin: I'm very new to Legacy so apologies for the possibly idiotic question, but how does KOTR shore up your SneakShow matchup?

Neo900
05-15-2017, 02:03 PM
Kotr can search you karakas and maze of ith. Or can bring up the Dark Depths combo.
In Bant it's probably the karakas which is pretty good against Emrakul.

tescrin
05-15-2017, 02:14 PM
Tescrin: I'm very new to Legacy so apologies for the possibly idiotic question, but how does KOTR shore up your SneakShow matchup?

As neo said, the Karakas she can fetch is pretty handy. They Show & Tell, you drop a Knight (or a natural karakas) off of it, untap, bounce their legend and swing. I also found KotR, while not necessary, is quite handy against Infect (or when you see the opportunity to mana screw) for repeat-wasting opponents so they're locked out.

That said, I'm going somewhat counter heavy at this point because:
* They avoid Leo/TNN protections
* They work against everything
* other stuff?

And banking on Flash-dudes or tokens with equips being a good idea. I'll get to run it at a local in a couple days and will report from there.

Either way, this means I'm moving away from KotR/QPM/Decay and towards an approach that hopes to make the opponent react to what I'm doing while I hold up a bunch of counter-magic to keep them off the board.

Minniehajj
05-15-2017, 02:20 PM
I believe Marit Large is a 20/20, but your point is correct.

He/She is talking about Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

MrFrowny_
05-15-2017, 02:32 PM
He/She is talking about Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

You're right, I just saw the Marit Large in the sentence before and assumed they were talking about the same thing. I deleted my post.

PotatoSol
05-21-2017, 03:02 AM
Hey, I was on deathblade before but I switched to Maverick due to budget reasons but I'm thinking about trying to get back onto deathblade.

Current list is looking like this: (sorry for the poor formatting, im on mobile now ill try to fix it up later)

1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

3 Baleful Strix
1 Batterskull
2 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
2 Council's Judgment
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

3 Dread of Night
3 Flusterstorm
3 Supreme Verdict

====

As you can tell, i only have 9 sideboard cards. I'm trying to find cards to fit in. Currently I want to add cards that help against eldrazi and decks like food chain/aluren, and shardless bug. Im kind of at a loss as to how to beat those decks in particular.

Also i have some choices im not so sure about in my mainboard in todaya meta. Im not sure how good baleful strix is going to be, is it necessary still? It helps against eldrazi and delver decks I guess but thats about it. Im also unsure about bitterblossom. I wanted to try and fit in a leovald or a knight of the reliquary + package but i wasnt sure how to fit that in the mainboard without destroying my mana.

Currently not as many duals as i would like due to budget. Ideally would add another tundra and underground sea.

Also im unsure about plainswalkers. Jtms is the main one but im also considering lotv, and the new simic nissa with the x casting cost. She seems great for grindy matchups but i havent played with her at all yet

whocansay
05-21-2017, 05:25 AM
I think you might have an awfully tough time consistently getting WW, UU, and BB off of a manabase with 5 basics.

First_Revenge
05-21-2017, 11:52 PM
Hey, I was on deathblade before but I switched to Maverick due to budget reasons but I'm thinking about trying to get back onto deathblade.

Current list is looking like this: (sorry for the poor formatting, im on mobile now ill try to fix it up later)

1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

3 Baleful Strix
1 Batterskull
2 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
2 Council's Judgment
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

3 Dread of Night
3 Flusterstorm
3 Supreme Verdict

====

As you can tell, i only have 9 sideboard cards. I'm trying to find cards to fit in. Currently I want to add cards that help against eldrazi and decks like food chain/aluren, and shardless bug. Im kind of at a loss as to how to beat those decks in particular.

Also i have some choices im not so sure about in my mainboard in todaya meta. Im not sure how good baleful strix is going to be, is it necessary still? It helps against eldrazi and delver decks I guess but thats about it. Im also unsure about bitterblossom. I wanted to try and fit in a leovald or a knight of the reliquary + package but i wasnt sure how to fit that in the mainboard without destroying my mana.

Currently not as many duals as i would like due to budget. Ideally would add another tundra and underground sea.

Also im unsure about plainswalkers. Jtms is the main one but im also considering lotv, and the new simic nissa with the x casting cost. She seems great for grindy matchups but i havent played with her at all yet



Hey so there's a lot to discuss with this. I understand you're on a budget, i mean who isn't these days, but at minimum you're probably going to need a another tundra and an underground sea. You're trying for a four color manabase, and at this point i just don't think this mana base is up to the task. If it helps you could play UW stoneblade with back to basics. Its nothing to sneeze at and super punishes greedy manabases, and it doesn't require that many duals!

To outline my concerns:

At least by my count you have 23 lands. The land count itself is fine, but you run into color problems. First, your manabase is very light on blue.
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

9 of your lands don't tap for blue mana! For reference most lists you see will have roughly the same number of lands, but will run 2 wastelands, 1 plains, 1 swamp, and maybe one karakas/utility land for a total of 5 non blue lands at most.

Additionally i'd advise going down to 1 marsh flats and adding 1 flooded strand and 1 polluted delta so you can fetch basic islands.

I think this mana base would be pretty solid, but i'd probably still like another underground sea if i could.
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tarpit
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland


Okay now for the maindeck. Here's what i think should go:
-2 Council's Judgement-Its kinda slow and the WW mana cost can get clunky.
-1 Ponder - 3 ponders is a lot, i'd rather this become an action spell
-1 True Name Nemesis - 4 is pretty excessive, i think 3 is a good number, but a lot of builds go down to as few as two.

I'd add
+3 Thoughtseize(I'm honestly pretty surprised this isn't in the maindeck already, it helps with a lot of matchups by letting you take their best card and giving you a lot of information)
+1 Swords to plowshares


Stuff i'd like to add- 1 or 2 Snapcaster mage, 1 or 2 fatal push


Sideboard:
Not a fan of supreme verdict, i'm sure other guys on this thread are tired of me saying this. To keep it short, 1WWU is extremely color intensive, if you're against a wasteland/bloodmoon deck its going to be difficult to develop your manabase to this point. "Tax" effects like thalia make this cost 5. I suspect that this card will end up rotting in your hand or getting pitched to FoW more often than you actually get to cast it.

3 dread of night seems pretty excessive. Obviously its an all star against Dnt, but its just such a narrow card i couldn't recommend this many of them unless you pretty much know you're going to be fighting a dnt deck consistently.

For reference here's my sideboard, not recommending you carbon copy it, but its a good place to at least start.
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
2 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Invasive Surgery

Regarding JTMS vs liliana. You'll find two mindsets here, i'm not sure which one is right. I don't like liliana since i don't think our deck can run her +1 well, we don't have cards we can really just throw away. Maybe if you ran lingering souls/snapcaster mage you could swing it, but you don't run either one. Others just like her because she's just such a powerhouse on her own and pumping her out T2 is pretty nuts.

Regarding those matchups:
Eldrazi-Feels kind rough. Chalice on one is a beating and their wastelands don't help either. I run 6 point removals so that helps. Toxic deluge is also good, and engineered kills chalices. Path to exile i'm experimenting with for this matchup(and against BUG greedy manabases) as they don't have basics to fetch. You also run a lot of wastelands which are MVPs in this matchup. Good news is this deck *should* be on the downswing with the absence of miracles. Don't know if that'll actually pan out though.

Food chain/aluren: Thoughtseize helps with food chain. Regarding aluren, more killspells help, 3 STP with no snapcaster just isn't going to cut it.

Shardless: I haven't really played it against this much. I know there aren't a lot of basics so killing their duals and deathrites will definitely help. Other than that i know this deck tends to outvalue us so this tends to be a bad matchup.

PotatoSol
05-22-2017, 02:56 PM
Ok so mainboard I agree with cutting a ponder and 2 council's judgment and 1 true name. I'm down for the 4th stp, but I don't know how I feel about thoughtseize. I don't like it against burn, eldrazi, shardless, and delver decks which is enough of the local meta that I don't want to mainboard it. I'll probably add some snaps and pushes instead. Might even play around with a 1-2 of mainboard path

Is creeping tar pit really that good? Ive seen a lot of lists start to run it but im afraid of the etb tapped part, is that ever a big deal?

Ill probably do 1 marsh flats for 4 deltas and strands, but i dont think i can get the extra sea and tundra. Might just run a shockland or 2 instead.

Side: i still like some form of board wipe that isnt toxic deluge. The life cost on deluge can be huge and ive gotten blown out by it a lot. Do you think something like regular ol wrath of god/damnation will work?

Definitely need to add surgicals to sideboard, probably 2-3. Maybe a containment priest or ethersworn canonist oe even gaddock teeg will fit in there, will play with them more.

Also has anyone here played with a 1-2 of monastary mentor in the 75 somewhere? Seems like a good go wide option

First_Revenge
05-22-2017, 05:54 PM
Ok so mainboard I agree with cutting a ponder and 2 council's judgment and 1 true name. I'm down for the 4th stp, but I don't know how I feel about thoughtseize. I don't like it against burn, eldrazi, shardless, and delver decks which is enough of the local meta that I don't want to mainboard it. I'll probably add some snaps and pushes instead. Might even play around with a 1-2 of mainboard path

Is creeping tar pit really that good? Ive seen a lot of lists start to run it but im afraid of the etb tapped part, is that ever a big deal?

Ill probably do 1 marsh flats for 4 deltas and strands, but i dont think i can get the extra sea and tundra. Might just run a shockland or 2 instead.

Side: i still like some form of board wipe that isnt toxic deluge. The life cost on deluge can be huge and ive gotten blown out by it a lot. Do you think something like regular ol wrath of god/damnation will work?

Definitely need to add surgicals to sideboard, probably 2-3. Maybe a containment priest or ethersworn canonist oe even gaddock teeg will fit in there, will play with them more.

Also has anyone here played with a 1-2 of monastary mentor in the 75 somewhere? Seems like a good go wide option

Without knowing your meta it’s hard for me to know how correct your exclusion of thoughtseize is. Generally speaking though, I’d categorically disagree with your assessment of the card.
To explain my reasoning for including it:
1. I don’t always know what my opponent is playing. Maybe your meta has players more or less married to a deck so you know what you’re playing against. This assumption gets problematic if you ever play at a different store/larger tournament.
2. Thoughtseize takes their best card.
3. Thoughtseize lets me sculpt my game plan based around what they have. Immediately answers questions like what is he playing, should I fetch basics, how far is he from comboing off, etc..
4. Thoughtseize represents the proactive part of your gameplan. Thoughtseize forces your opponent to make decisions or allows you to clear the way for things like TNN by taking a counterspell or something. FoW and spell pierce are great reactive cards but you can’t lean on them entirely. Spell pierce is a soft counter and FoW is an automatic 2 for 1. Look at thoughtseize as a quasi hard counter.
5. Generally speaking it’s useful way more often than its dead. About the only matchup it’s dead in is burn. It’s not ideal against eldrazi/delver but it’s not horrible either.

Creeping tarpit was my way of trying to provide a budget alternative to underground sea. Personally I’d agree that it’s a liability, but it’s shown up in the KMC lists which have been doing quite well in japan.

Shocklands could work, depending on how competitive you are they could end up being a pretty serious liability. Again if you aren’t willing to shell out for duals, which is totally understandable, I’d recommend looking at UW stoneblade whose main strength is a lot of basics.

Regarding toxic deluge, I’ve looked high and low for this sweeper you speak of and come up empty. Wrath and damnation suffer from the same problems as verdict so I don’t consider them viable.
1. Wrath/damnation both cost 4 so they aren’t any cheaper than verdict.
2. Wrath/damnation both set you up to eat a wasteland, verdict has this problem to a greater extent.
3. Verdict can’t be countered but wrath can. Verdict can also be pitched to force of will.

Toxic deluge doesn’t require you to fetch any non basics and is cheaper. Does it suck to pay 5 for it against eldrazi, you bet it does. I just don’t have a better alternative sadly.


I toyed around with the idea of adding mentor, but it didn’t seem any better than vendilion clique or leovold. Mentor got ridiculous when miracles had two tops they could spam. While it could be good in our deck I can’t escape the notion that we could be doing something better with our mana. Besides you already have two bitterblossoms, so I don’t see a need for another token generator.

PotatoSol
05-23-2017, 03:11 AM
I'm not sold on thoughtseize yet but I'll throw 3 in the main anyways to test it out.

I really don't like toxic deluge. It just feels terrible when I'm against a creature aggro deck to pay life. I've played with it before and especially against eldrazi it feels terrible. Maybe Retribution of the Meek? Or Meekstone? They do feel kind of narrow though. Worship is more broad but also feels kind of slow.

Could also have something like Glissa, the Traitor which just wins in combat all day? Or something like Gifted Aetherborn which is hard to cast but trades and gains some life.

First_Revenge
05-23-2017, 04:38 PM
Just curious how many people in your local meta play eldrazi? You just seem really hung up on beating this one deck. We could make more changes to tune your deck to beat eldrazi but those changes would make your deck worse against the rest of the field. As it stands you seem to have a lot of cards that are pretty good against eldrazi, 3 baleful strix, 4 STP, and maybe some fatal push.

That being said you may have to accept that eldrazi is rough matchup for us.
1. They attack our complex manabase via 4 wasteland
2. Chalice on 1 shuts off all our point removal, so you basically need to have FoW T1.
3. Their creatures are bigger than ours and they deploy them very quickly.

Regarding toxic deluge, like I said ya it’s not great, but you can at least cast it through wastelands.

Ya meekstone/retribution of the meek feel too narrow. Worship is okay, but they can get out of it with all is dust.

Regarding Glissa, BGG would be a really tough casting cost off of an optimal manabase, let alone one with shocks and basics. Probably just too clunky.

I’d probably run another baleful strix before I ran gifted aetherborn.

tescrin
05-23-2017, 04:52 PM
worried about eldrazi stuff

You're actually in a deck arch that is well positioned depending on card choices.
Long story short, TNN, BSK, Strix, and Gurmag are all wildly powerful against them. If you have some but feel weak, add some TNN/Strix/Angler/BSK and see if you still feel weak, rinse and repeat.

Explanation:
* Strix is CA that trades with their dudes. You will grind their inconsistent deck out with CA by trading a garbage creature for a card and either a Wail or a dude.
* TNN is a wall to anything not-reality-smasher. Thus.. TNNs are good at stalling the game and allowing you to grind them out.
* Gurmag is the same size or bigger than almost their whole deck. He is a bully who will throw his weight around and allow you to be defensive or offensive with little care.
* BSK is able to easily trade with their more common dudes and gain you a turn's worth of life out of the deal.

Honestly, you're in one of the best color combinations* to deal with Eldrazi. Between Plow, the aforementioned cards and their synergies, and ability to just Daze/Force their Chalice or dudes with impunity, you should not have major issues. I get that a lot of people moved from Strix and may not even run Angler, but Eldrazi are a small portion of the metagame and the brick-wall version of this deck is quite possible to do while maintaining good anti-combo game.

*I believe the only color combo I'd rather have is Bant, since if you run KotR he is not only bigger than their guys, but able to waste them out. That said, Strix + Gurmag are arguably better.


EDIT: Looking at your list, you have 23 lands. This is unnecessary. Daze > Spell pierce too, especially for T1 DRS or T2 SFM->BSK.
Out: -2 Lands (your choice), -2 Spell Pierce, -2 Ponder
In: 3 Daze, 1 Baleful Strix, 2 Gurmag Angler

If you're still unable to hold off eldrazi with 7 free counters, 4 plow, and 10 walls then it starts feeling like it's the player. 23 lands is huge. I think I run 20 and have two 4-drop Walkers, 3 wastelands to boot. Got screwed once by Delver in a super close game, but otherwise it hasn't been biting me. If anything I feel like I'm flooding half the time.

PotatoSol
05-24-2017, 02:44 AM
Mmm maybe I'm just playing the Eldrazi match up wrong, Do you guys know any vods for stoneblade decks vs eldrazi? Everyone here plays combo or delver or eldrazi

I'm fine with going down to 22 lands but 20-21 seems so little with only 4 dorks. If I was running 2-4 hierarchs too I'd be in but idk about going down too many lands.

And for the spell pierce daze argument, is it ok to run daze when it's only like a 2 of? Or should I be making space for 3-4

e: misread, I see that you wanted me to go to 3 dazes now. I'll try that out

FZA
05-25-2017, 02:40 AM
I decided to take a crack at Deathblade and ended up going 4-1 in a league with this list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


The targeted discard felt great, the Lilis felt great, and the Vindicate felt great (though I could see running Council's Judgement in that slot too). This does not feel like a deck that wants Daze or Counterspell.

I am not going to make changes until I get some more reps in with the deck, but I would really appreciate any comments! Cheers

First_Revenge
05-25-2017, 09:48 AM
I decided to take a crack at Deathblade and ended up going 4-1 in a league with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

The targeted discard felt great, the Lilis felt great, and the Vindicate felt great (though I could see running Council's Judgement in that slot too). This does not feel like a deck that wants Daze or Counterspell.

I am not going to make changes until I get some more reps in with the deck, but I would really appreciate any comments! Cheers

List looks good. Personally I’ve gotten off baleful strix, I think outright killspells like fatal push are better than the strix.

3 ponders might be a bit much as well.

I used to run vindicate but it felt too slow and inefficient. Fatal push ended up pushing this card out of my list. If it worked out for you so be it though. Left to my own devices I might do the following

-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Ponder
-1 Vindicate
+1 True Name Nemesis
+1 Leovold(I’m debating 2, he’s seriously THAT good despite the mana cost)
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Snapcaster

Just my $0.02. Good to see deathblade is working out on mtgo.

Ilnez
05-29-2017, 07:55 AM
Hey guys,

I've been doing a lot of thinking regarding the bans in other formats and the current state of them and have decided to just bite the bullet and get the final few duals I'm missing to complete a reasonable Legacy deck that I'll enjoy (I kinda hate all the decks considered to be T1 atm except storm and I don't even really enjoy playing Storm).

I've been a fan of SFM decks since back when she was legal in standard (good times!), I absolutely love the card. Thus I've naturally gravitated towards Deathblade (which everyone says is strictly better Stoneblade which would have been what I played).

So here's my question for the day: Bant or Esper stoneblade? 4c? Can anyone explain to me the benefits of each version of the deck as well as their weaknesses amongst the current field? Here's what I've understood so far:

- TNN is the stone cold nuts in the current Meta
- Leovold is mental, you probably want to play him
- Legacy is a fantastic format and I love it so much!

All kidding aside, I've been trying really hard to adsorb all the information I could gleam about the current Legacy meta and it's been going pretty well I suppose. That being said, if I'm gonna buy into a deck, I really wanted to consult with people with more hands-on experience before I went ahead and spent hundreds of dollars. I've been asked for what I was looking for in a deck and apparently 'Caw-Blade 2.0' is not a good answer. So I'll try to give a more detailed one. I'm looking for a solid control/tempo deck that (hopefully) plays Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, The Mind Sculptor. If I should look elsewhere, please feel free to let me know!

Thanks so much guys, cheers from Canada!
~Nez

tescrin
05-29-2017, 01:36 PM
So here's my question for the day: Bant or Esper stoneblade? 4c? Can anyone explain to me the benefits of each version of the deck as well as their weaknesses amongst the current field? Here's what I've understood so far:

- TNN is the stone cold nuts in the current Meta
- Leovold is mental, you probably want to play him
- Legacy is a fantastic format and I love it so much!


Pros and Cons of each:

Pros of Bant:
* More mana dudes = More broken opening hands.
* Also means easier time getting early equips online
* Easier access to Destroy Enchantment/Artifact cards in the main (RecSage, QPM, etc.) due to Green
* Easier time casting Jace
* Games end earlier
* Access to KotR

Cons of Bant:
* More bad mid/late game draws
* Basically no access to Tokens
* Color reqs get gross (GW, UU, UGB, WW; and your first land is almost always a Trop)
* Fetching black for Hate cards can be a problem

Either/Or of Bant:
* Access to Hatebears & Counters (and you usually want to interact on multiple axis against combo.)


Pros of Esper:
* Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom. I win half my matches just on the back of Bitterblossom being ridiculous. I also occasionally lose to the life drain, but Live by the Blossom, Die by the Blossom. Note: These make TNN much better against Liliana (though a bit worse against -1/-1 effects)
* Is actually black. => Ease of killing opposing boardstates and TNNs especially.
* Can run Discard if desired (though I personally don't.)
* Painful Truths
* USea->DRS >>>>>>>> Trop->DRS
* Access to Angler/Strix

Cons of Esper:
* Every good creature or card you run is probably 1 toughness except DRS/Mystic
* Tends to grind. As I said, I usually win off of my token cards or an equip
* Arty/Enchant hate tends to be worse (though there are options: D-Sphere, Vindicate, Judgement, etc.)


Esper tends to be a deck that takes awhile to kill you, but has lots of inevitability via cards like Truths, Souls, etc.. where you can have no boardstate and no cards, draw a topdeck, and say "lol." Bant is a bit more aggressive since it's CA solely comes from SFM/SCM. Esper can also be designed to run Mentor due to the power of Truths (and honestly, I'd consider Think Twice or Deep analysis with Mentor the next time I try him.)

IMO, the access to good token cards was the deciding factor for me. I switch between them a bit (have one built for a buddy, and one for myself at the moment.)


EDIT: IMO, don't go deep on Leo if you haven't already. I think he'll see his way out over time as the meta adjusts to his existence. Personally I only run Brainstorm that can be hit by him, and otherwise do most of my interaction on the stack so I don't trigger his nonsense. I expect others are doing the same thing; such as Portent or instant speed cantrips being used to get around his ability. In time I expect this will make him a GSZ target and a BUG staple, and leave it at that. I know I'm in the minority here, but I wouldn't worry about 4-colors outside of getting a sideboard card online or the G-DRS activation.

apistat_commander
05-29-2017, 02:04 PM
Sorry to echo a question above: but is DRS so good that Deathblade has entirely replaced traditional Stoneblade lists? I've been away from the game for 4 years, so I'm trying to catch up on some of the deck development. It seems like the same shift has happened with Delver, with Grixis/BUG overtaking traditional RUG by a wide margin. I tried posting over in the other Blade Control thread, but that seems to have entirely died.

DRS doesn't really pressure the manabase if you are playing UBWg list and it accelerates the deck while also giving you a utility dork which is great. However it means that you can't run sweepers (Supreme Verdict, EE) and that your maindeck is much tighter. I've been play testing Esper Stoneblade (w/o DRS) on Cockatrice and doing alright, but the player quality on Cockatrice can be pretty abysmal. I'll throw together a Deathblade list to try out as well, but would love to get some input to see if I should even be putting time into traditional lists.

Seraphix
05-29-2017, 02:27 PM
Sorry to echo a question above: but is DRS so good that Deathblade has entirely replaced traditional Stoneblade lists? I've been away from the game for 4 years, so I'm trying to catch up on some of the deck development. It seems like the same shift has happened with Delver, with Grixis/BUG overtaking traditional RUG by a wide margin. I tried posting over in the other Blade Control thread, but that seems to have entirely died.

DRS doesn't really pressure the manabase if you are playing UBWg list and it accelerates the deck while also giving you a utility dork which is great. However it means that you can't run sweepers (Supreme Verdict, EE) and that your maindeck is much tighter. I've been play testing Esper Stoneblade (w/o DRS) on Cockatrice and doing alright, but the player quality on Cockatrice can be pretty abysmal. I'll throw together a Deathblade list to try out as well, but would love to get some input to see if I should even be putting time into traditional lists.

As you point out, Deathrite Shaman has a lot to offer to an Esperblade deck at a low opportunity cost. Esperblade can be cumbersome so the mana acceleration is a huge plus, not to mention DRS actually improves your mana base by providing resilience against Wasteland and color-fixing. DRS also adds an axis of interaction against graveyard-based strategies. The card is busted.

Encouraging you to move away from maindeck sweepers like Verdict and EE is one cost of playing the card, and you also usually have to trim some card advantage like the 3rd-4th Snapcaster Mage/Jace to accommodate it as well.

That being said, I haven't seen Esper Deathblade put up a good result for some time, while classic Esperblade has. Overall both strategies are fully viable and I think which one to go with is mostly up to player preference.

apistat_commander
05-29-2017, 03:31 PM
As you point out, Deathrite Shaman has a lot to offer to an Esperblade deck at a low opportunity cost. Esperblade can be cumbersome so the mana acceleration is a huge plus, not to mention DRS actually improves your mana base by providing resilience against Wasteland and color-fixing. DRS also adds an axis of interaction against graveyard-based strategies. The card is busted.

Encouraging you to move away from maindeck sweepers like Verdict and EE is one cost of playing the card, and you also usually have to trim some card advantage like the 3rd-4th Snapcaster Mage/Jace to accommodate it as well.

That being said, I haven't seen Esper Deathblade put up a good result for some time, while classic Esperblade has. Overall both strategies are fully viable and I think which one to go with is mostly up to player preference.

Cool, thanks for the input! I was concerned because the Esper Blade list I threw together was essentially the same thing I was playing 4 years ago which made me feel like I was doing something wrong. It seems like the meta is pretty similar to back then with Miracles taken out, combo being viable again, and fair decks trying to grind each other out.

On traditional Stoneblade: The only thing that seems to have changed much is Snapcaster Mage becoming worse with the prevalence of DRS. That being said, running maindeck Wrath effect(s) seems pretty good right now. There are a lot of creature based decks that would be punished by EE/Supreme Verdict/etc. The manabase is not greedy and you can cast 95% of your spells off your 4 basics, as I imagine decks that main non-basic hate should be coming back. Discard + counters gives you an alright G1 against combo, and post-board you transform into a hate machine for whatever your opponent is playing.

On Deathblade: The addition of DRS allows you to more effectively take the aggressive role if necessary. It also doesn't hurt your control game too much because the mana acceleration and instant-speed ability mean you don't have to tap out as often. I don't like the idea of being more reliant on creatures, but I certainly see the potential.

I suppose I'll need to test both to see what I prefer and what fits my local meta the best. I remember old Stoneblade feeling so well balanced against the meta: you had tools for every MU. I never felt like any of my match-ups were impossible, which was a nice feeling compared to Delver/Combo where some decks felt like running into a brick wall.

ryscott85
05-30-2017, 12:05 AM
I'm not sure if it's considered deathblade because deathrite shaman is in the list or not, however; what are everyone's thoughts on MzFroste's last blade list (mtgfoldfish) before switching over to the new miracle concoction? Seeing how a lot of people are jumping on the magus/blood moon and or chalice boat as of late, basics seem like good place to be with any list right now (although typically I don't mind all non basics like past iterations). I'm not as much of a fan of the new bant lists due to nobles and dazes being god aweful late game. Another list I was pondering isab update of one Derrick Sheets used to win an scg invitational with.. although it seems like basics in that build could potentially be more of a hinderance.

Ilnez
05-30-2017, 08:18 AM
Pros and Cons of each:

Pros of Bant:
* More mana dudes = More broken opening hands.
* Also means easier time getting early equips online
* Easier access to Destroy Enchantment/Artifact cards in the main (RecSage, QPM, etc.) due to Green
* Easier time casting Jace
* Games end earlier
* Access to KotR

Cons of Bant:
* More bad mid/late game draws
* Basically no access to Tokens
* Color reqs get gross (GW, UU, UGB, WW; and your first land is almost always a Trop)
* Fetching black for Hate cards can be a problem

Either/Or of Bant:
* Access to Hatebears & Counters (and you usually want to interact on multiple axis against combo.)


Pros of Esper:
* Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom. I win half my matches just on the back of Bitterblossom being ridiculous. I also occasionally lose to the life drain, but Live by the Blossom, Die by the Blossom. Note: These make TNN much better against Liliana (though a bit worse against -1/-1 effects)
* Is actually black. => Ease of killing opposing boardstates and TNNs especially.
* Can run Discard if desired (though I personally don't.)
* Painful Truths
* USea->DRS >>>>>>>> Trop->DRS
* Access to Angler/Strix

Cons of Esper:
* Every good creature or card you run is probably 1 toughness except DRS/Mystic
* Tends to grind. As I said, I usually win off of my token cards or an equip
* Arty/Enchant hate tends to be worse (though there are options: D-Sphere, Vindicate, Judgement, etc.)


Esper tends to be a deck that takes awhile to kill you, but has lots of inevitability via cards like Truths, Souls, etc.. where you can have no boardstate and no cards, draw a topdeck, and say "lol." Bant is a bit more aggressive since it's CA solely comes from SFM/SCM. Esper can also be designed to run Mentor due to the power of Truths (and honestly, I'd consider Think Twice or Deep analysis with Mentor the next time I try him.)

IMO, the access to good token cards was the deciding factor for me. I switch between them a bit (have one built for a buddy, and one for myself at the moment.)


EDIT: IMO, don't go deep on Leo if you haven't already. I think he'll see his way out over time as the meta adjusts to his existence. Personally I only run Brainstorm that can be hit by him, and otherwise do most of my interaction on the stack so I don't trigger his nonsense. I expect others are doing the same thing; such as Portent or instant speed cantrips being used to get around his ability. In time I expect this will make him a GSZ target and a BUG staple, and leave it at that. I know I'm in the minority here, but I wouldn't worry about 4-colors outside of getting a sideboard card online or the G-DRS activation.

Your list sounds very interesting (with Blossom), could I see it by chance?

First_Revenge
05-30-2017, 10:15 AM
I'm not sure if it's considered deathblade because deathrite shaman is in the list or not, however; what are everyone's thoughts on MzFroste's last blade list (mtgfoldfish) before switching over to the new miracle concoction? Seeing how a lot of people are jumping on the magus/blood moon and or chalice boat as of late, basics seem like good place to be with any list right now (although typically I don't mind all non basics like past iterations). I'm not as much of a fan of the new bant lists due to nobles and dazes being god aweful late game. Another list I was pondering isab update of one Derrick Sheets used to win an scg invitational with.. although it seems like basics in that build could potentially be more of a hinderance.

Just FYI, deathblade is stoneblade with deathrites thrown in.

Regarding MzFroste, I’m assuming this is the list you’re talking about:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15582&d=295152&f=LE
I think 4 ponders is excessive, go down a counterspell, maybe go down a thoughtseize, and possibly toss in two wastelands. In all I’d probably change about 5 cards around, which is significant number of cards.
Bear in mind, that from what I understand the mtgo meta is different from the paper meta.

For Derrick Sheets lists, as far as I could tell you’re talking about this one:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65485
Maybe it’s deathblade showing its age, but honestly this list from 3+ years ago looks pretty reasonable even today. Only two things maindeck really jump out at me. First I’d want 2 ponders. Second is that detention sphere would become council’s judgement. I think it was included as TNN/general catchall removal. If that’s the case judgement works fine. Council’s judgement didn’t exist when this list won so I’d wager that’s why we aren’t seeing it.
Sideboard I’d cut the 3 RIP, they’re just too slow. With BR reanimator running around you probably want some number of surgical extractions/containment priest. The 2 Abrupt Decay seems like a good candidate to get the axe. With miracles out the green mana only complicates our manabase. I’d toss in fatal push if I were worried about critters and more counter magic if I wanted more permission.

Regarding basics, I’ve pretty much always run 2 island, 1 swamp, 1 plains, and 9 fetches. It does sometimes generate issues with color fixing, but being able play around wasteland/blood moon effects is worth it.

apistat_commander
05-30-2017, 10:46 AM
I'm not sure if it's considered deathblade because deathrite shaman is in the list or not, however; what are everyone's thoughts on MzFroste's last blade list (mtgfoldfish) before switching over to the new miracle concoction? Seeing how a lot of people are jumping on the magus/blood moon and or chalice boat as of late, basics seem like good place to be with any list right now (although typically I don't mind all non basics like past iterations). I'm not as much of a fan of the new bant lists due to nobles and dazes being god aweful late game. Another list I was pondering isab update of one Derrick Sheets used to win an scg invitational with.. although it seems like basics in that build could potentially be more of a hinderance.

MzFroste's list is what I'm using for my starting place as a Deathblade list. It seems pretty close to what Derrick Sheets was running, but there are more of Sheets' card choices that I don't agree with. For example: Rest in Peace is an awesome card but not that great when it shuts off your own DRS. Meddling Mage is alright, but most combo decks don't have a single win condition so it doesn't shut anything off (Sneak/Show, ANT has multiple tutors/PiF, Reanimator has multiple ways of reanimating, etc.) so it isn't good for much else. I've also never been a very big fan of running Wasteland in a control deck. Yes, there are some very valuable targets for Wasteland but that doesn't make it right for this deck. If I want to play Wasteland, I'll run an aggro shell that support is better.

All that being said, I really do like MzFroste's list. My question with it is how good of a G1 it really has against combo, with only 6 MD counters and 4 discard. However DRS helps you accelerate into those spells and I really enjoy playing a 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder suite. Very, very rarely am I unhappy to see a cantrip, so having the ability to dig is pretty huge. Post-board your MU against combo improves immensely and I imagine you can bring in enough hate to make fair decks unhappy.

tescrin
05-30-2017, 11:42 AM
Your list sounds very interesting (with Blossom), could I see it by chance?

Sure, though a warning: This is not traditional and is highly experimental at the moment. I haven't posted much about it because the cards are embarrassing lol. I've only gotten a couple locals with it and am still feeling out how it's supposed to work. At this point, due to the 8 obviously weird cards, it's probably it's own archtype; but only if it turns out it's good. In my limited testing in it's iterations it's currently 1-1-1, 1-0-2, 2-1, and 3-1 [for a total of 7-3-3]. So it's getting closer to being a working list it seems; however until I figure out tuning/viability, I didn't want to go too crazy. Due to the GP, everyone in my area is showing up (thursday night 3-rounders are getting 25-35 people), Sats have good numbers, and people are bringing what they expect to use at the GP.

In it's infinite Jankness:

-18/10-
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
[in] 1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Spell Queller
2 Snapcaster Mage

-6-
3 Bitterblossom
[out] 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

-14/11-
3 Swords to Plowshares
[out] 2 Vindicate
[in]2 Dimir Charm
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will

-21-
[in]1 Moorland Haunt
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island

SB:
2 Submerge
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Chill
1 Engineered Plague


Everything is instant speed but the Deathblade part. Experimental right now are Dimir Charms, SFM #4, and Moorland Haunt, as I just lowered my curve. It was 2x Vindicate, 2x Elspeth (or Jace); but the sorcery speed tap outs make choosing between Quelling and Stuttering difficult.

To explain myself:
* I always use 61 cards
* I tried a 1-of Queller as card 61 some weeks back and the first day it won me a game/match against Aluren, and was a huge part of winning against Infect. This made me want to keep testing it.
* I realized that the more Quellers you had, the more tempo/CA you gained until bad things happen. I decided that that Tempo plan was an interesting idea.
* Sprites happen to be 2-mana CA that are otherwise very similar to quellers.
* Flash dudes are amazing with Equips, as are Flyers.
* Last tourny tested Stifle for Daze to support Queller and higher CMCs. Stifling Queller was relevant as a way to keep their spell countered (and thus maintain boardstate and tempo advantage)

I've been enjoying it and figuring it out. Swapping Stifle for Daze felt pretty good during this last one. I may try to cram Dazes before the next test, possibly in the slots I show as swapping.

Again, while this is a "Deathblade" variant, I was planning on this not being shared here as it is basically off topic. For "regular" deathblade I'd swap the 8 Queller/Stutters to 2 Stalkers, 3 TNN, 3 Strix probably? Then I'd look at adding a walker for end-game support and start testing. I would imagine the Stifles would get swapped too.



EDIT: The list has been winning in weird ways too. Against turbo Depths for instance: I had DRS + 2 lands. I was expecting to stutter something and move on with my life, but he slammed a 20/20. I had an ETutor in hand. So I dropped Stutter without countering anything as a roadblock. Tutored Blossom. Played Blossom. And won because that deck can't beat Bitterblossom if you have a boardstate. Same thing happened G3. Needle'd Waste, dropped DRS, Plow'd Lage, Tutor'd Blossom, beat down for 10 a turn or so with no worries. Fun Notes: Queller and Stutter each nabbed an Oblivion Stone in those games.

ryscott85
05-30-2017, 06:51 PM
Just FYI, deathblade is stoneblade with deathrites thrown in.

Regarding MzFroste, I’m assuming this is the list you’re talking about:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15582&d=295152&f=LE
I think 4 ponders is excessive, go down a counterspell, maybe go down a thoughtseize, and possibly toss in two wastelands. In all I’d probably change about 5 cards around, which is significant number of cards.
Bear in mind, that from what I understand the mtgo meta is different from the paper meta.

For Derrick Sheets lists, as far as I could tell you’re talking about this one:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65485
Maybe it’s deathblade showing its age, but honestly this list from 3+ years ago looks pretty reasonable even today. Only two things maindeck really jump out at me. First I’d want 2 ponders. Second is that detention sphere would become council’s judgement. I think it was included as TNN/general catchall removal. If that’s the case judgement works fine. Council’s judgement didn’t exist when this list won so I’d wager that’s why we aren’t seeing it.
Sideboard I’d cut the 3 RIP, they’re just too slow. With BR reanimator running around you probably want some number of surgical extractions/containment priest. The 2 Abrupt Decay seems like a good candidate to get the axe. With miracles out the green mana only complicates our manabase. I’d toss in fatal push if I were worried about critters and more counter magic if I wanted more permission.

Regarding basics, I’ve pretty much always run 2 island, 1 swamp, 1 plains, and 9 fetches. It does sometimes generate issues with color fixing, but being able play around wasteland/blood moon effects is worth it.

That's what I always thought, but now that bant plays deathrite the lines seem to blur pending the source. Yes both of your links are the decks that I was referring to. I agree that Derrick's list has legs today! That's why I brought it up for discussion ( with judgement added as well as possibly some number of ponders)... now on to play testing!

First_Revenge
05-31-2017, 11:19 AM
That's what I always thought, but now that bant plays deathrite the lines seem to blur pending the source. Yes both of your links are the decks that I was referring to. I agree that Derrick's list has legs today! That's why I brought it up for discussion ( with judgement added as well as possibly some number of ponders)... now on to play testing!

Ya, the bant deathblade deck your talking about will probably warrant its own thread if it keeps up the current numbers. This thread has been more about esper deathblade(splashing green) although the title doesn't explicitly say that and it probably should given bant's rise. One thing i forgot to mention, if you do end up cutting the abrupt decays go down to one green source. Good luck with your testing and let us know how it goes.


@tescrin
Ohh man that’s a spicy list. The bitterblossom/spellstutter sprite interaction seems really cool. I don’t know why you’d think this is off topic, it is a deathblade list and new approaches are often helpful.

Spell queller seems pretty sweet, I thought it was a bit too slow but apparently it’s fine. Stifling your own spell queller is pretty hilarious too.

For what its worth, i had passing contact with a super solid esper stoneblade player and he's had success with maindeck dimir charm.

Wish I could see this deck play out, seems really interesting. Only thing that kind of surprises me is no vendilion cliques as you seem to have a faerie tribal thing going about.

tescrin
05-31-2017, 11:49 AM
@tescrin
Wish I could see this deck play out, seems really interesting. Only thing that kind of surprises me is no vendilion cliques as you seem to have a faerie tribal thing going about.

Thanks on the compliments! I am a *big* fan of Clique; but:
* Queller is very similar
* Clique has no trigger if Leo's on the field, which is a major one for me
* Clique's body is part of it's attraction, and the 1 toughness makes it vulnerable [similar to my feelings on TNN since I'm an against the grain kinda guy]

That's not to say that I'm immune to -1/-1 effects, but more that Sprite/Snap already did their Job, and Blossom just keeps crapping dudes.

That all said, putting cliques in again at some point seems fine. If, somehow, I'm losing to combo again I'll definitely start considering them.


EDIT: Another way to go deeper on Fae tribal I keep talking myself out of is Mutavault. Spellstutter Sprite's biggest handicap is them using removal on it in response to the trigger and getting no CA. You can turn stutter into a 3 CMC hard-counter for X-1 instead if you activate Mutavault while she's on the stack. But wastelands have been good and I'm not antsy to go to 22-24 lands.

EDIT 2: I think if I go further down this path and want answers to permanents, I'll be looking at Venser, Shaper Savant. Not quite a counter, but it gives a reliable answer to Sneakshow and Marit Lage, or even a hoof-casting since they are often out of mana when they do it.

btm10
05-31-2017, 01:35 PM
I've been playing a very similar list on MODO over the past 2 weeks. My configuration probably skewed a bit too heavily toward straight UW with a bunch of disruptive creatures (I was on 4 Mausoleum Wanderer and 1 Judge's Familiar on top of Spell Queller and Spellstutter Sprite), but the basic concept was very powerful against combo and control (but severely lacking in fair matchups).

Sprite is almost assuredly underplayed in the current meta, and none of the combo decks are prepared to play against it. Queller was significantly more polarized, being great against combo and mediocre-to-terrible against non-combo decks.

MrFrowny_
05-31-2017, 02:49 PM
I've been playing a very similar list on MODO over the past 2 weeks. My configuration probably skewed a bit too heavily toward straight UW with a bunch of disruptive creatures (I was on 4 Mausoleum Wanderer and 1 Judge's Familiar on top of Spell Queller and Spellstutter Sprite), but the basic concept was very powerful against combo and control (but severely lacking in fair matchups).

Sprite is almost assuredly underplayed in the current meta, and none of the combo decks are prepared to play against it. Queller was significantly more polarized, being great against combo and mediocre-to-terrible against non-combo decks.

Do you think if you added Jitte or Sword of X and Y that it would help the fair matchups? If you feel that you're favored against combo/control matchups then your sideboard should just be used to fight fair matchups.

btm10
05-31-2017, 03:11 PM
Do you think if you added Jitte or Sword of X and Y that it would help the fair matchups? If you feel that you're favored against combo/control matchups then your sideboard should just be used to fight fair matchups.

I've tried a number of equipment configurations to improve fair matchups, including multiple Jittes, multiple Swords, multiple Batterskulls, and combinations thereof. The best plan is 3 equipment, 4 Plow, 2 Snapcaster, and 2 Paths in the board. I might try adding SB TNNs as well since my creatures are so bad at combat as it is. tescrin's list might just be better.

tescrin
05-31-2017, 03:30 PM
I've been playing a very similar list on MODO over the past 2 weeks. My configuration probably skewed a bit too heavily toward straight UW with a bunch of disruptive creatures (I was on 4 Mausoleum Wanderer and 1 Judge's Familiar on top of Spell Queller and Spellstutter Sprite), but the basic concept was very powerful against combo and control (but severely lacking in fair matchups).

Sprite is almost assuredly underplayed in the current meta, and none of the combo decks are prepared to play against it. Queller was significantly more polarized, being great against combo and mediocre-to-terrible against non-combo decks.

I basically agree on this. I think Stifle helps Queller quite a bit; making him a Tempo oriented Tidehollow Sculler on a body worth having (Flying and immune to things like Pfire.) I'm still experimenting on how best to deal with fair decks. This is where Snap, Blossom, and (currently) Haunt have come in.

I think the Stifle potentially putting you a turn ahead (similar to DRS) is key to making the plan work now. So far my *Fair* MUs have looked like:
Win 2-1 D&T
Win 2-0 DGA
Draw 1-1 UW Stoneblade
Draw 1-1-1 Czech Pile (he was saved by the timer.)
Loss 1-2 BUG Delver
Loss 0-2 BUG Delver (same guy)

The successive loss to Delver caused me to lower the curve you see above, and we'll see how it does tomorrow night. Stifle really helped against Delver / D&T at either keeping something key exiled, blocking wasteland, or gaining a free turn off their fetch. I think Snap + Stifle will end up being key against Fair MUs, and am still debating adding a 4th stifle in place of Dimir Charm #2.

Notes:
* Basics are good. Don't get too greedy as if you get wastelanded on their turn before you get to counter something, you missed your chance.
* Stifles are good at the above as well.
* Flash dudes are good stallers or aggro guys if you get the chance. Don't get hung up casting them for value, especially against fair decks. If you see that Queller will get a good trade or free kill; ambush viper the dude and call it a day. That's true CA and a fair way to get it.
* Don't run Sorcery Speed unless you have to.
* The Deathblade shell gives not only equips to your flying flash guys, but instant speed activated abilities to utilize mana you didn't get to use.
* Blossom is must-have IMO. I think this anyway because I've been winning games that Souls can't win off of it a lot. Being tutorable and requiring two cards (usually) to answer it is huge. It races Souls quite well too.


Lots of testing to go, but I really only get to test 3-7 matches a week... so it'll be a bit to say anything conclusive. But I am happy enough with it to keep molding and bringing it into people testing for a GP. *Very* happy with the sideboard. The only swaps I've done is a Revoker for Needle #2 since it's so effective against lands [I normally lose to Maze of Ith..]

Submerge is an absolute house right now: Infect, Aluren, BUG, Lands, Elves, Bant, etc.. and if you see a Delve-dude next to G (RUG, or a lucky land with Grixis, or possibly a 1-2 of in some BUG decks), boy howdy.


I've also been playing a lot of Bant before the last 4 locals and have had tremendous combo game, and mediocre fair game. So this isn't relegated just to Sprites/Quellers on my end. I think it's a general theme with my playstyle, deckbuilding, or ability to manipulate fair MUs.

First_Revenge
05-31-2017, 04:08 PM
EDIT 2: I think if I go further down this path and want answers to permanents, I'll be looking at Venser, Shaper Savant. Not quite a counter, but it gives a reliable answer to Sneakshow and Marit Lage, or even a hoof-casting since they are often out of mana when they do it.

Hmm okay, by permanents it sounds like you mean big fatties. In the anti sneak & show/marit lage slot have you considered diabolic edict? That would probably do the trick at half the mana. I’m a bit less concerned with griselbrand since you run 3 maindeck stifles.
If you want to be really cute about it I’d consider blessed alliance as well. That card has been popping up here and there. It wouldn’t work against emrakul as the annihilator trigger would go off before alliance comes online. However it still does work against the other fatties. The advantages are that it’s pretty fringe right now and it can lead to some combat phase blowouts against more fair decks.
Also, makes for a nice gotcha moment, but remember you can cast alliance after damage is dealt. For example if they attack with SFM+TNN to play around alliance, you can kill off the SFM in combat then cast alliance post damage forcing a TNN sacrifice. This interaction wasn’t immediately obvious to me.

Another thing, I’m not sure about moorland haunt. You aren’t lacking for token generation and paying 3 mana for a 1/1 if you have a dead guy in the yard seems lackluster. Have you considered riptide laboratory? A lot of your critters are wizards and returning snapcasters/sprites/cliques to your hand seems excellent. With this online you can infinitely chump block, buyback counter spells, and just generally grind out a hell of a lot of value. The effect seems way more powerful than tossing out 1/1s in a deck already loaded with bitterblossoms and ultimately costs the same.

tescrin
05-31-2017, 06:53 PM
Have you considered riptide laboratory? A lot of your critters are wizards and returning snapcasters/sprites/cliques to your hand seems excellent. With this online you can infinitely chump block, buyback counter spells, and just generally grind out a hell of a lot of value. The effect seems way more powerful than tossing out 1/1s in a deck already loaded with bitterblossoms and ultimately costs the same.

That does seem reasonable actually. I won't be able to test that tomorrow as I probably can't find a copy in time, but I can try that next week probably. I think my options for tomorrow are:
* Volrath's Strongold <- meh
* Mutavault + swap Dimir charm for Mutavault <- Eh?
* Stifle #4 <- seems ok
* Wasteland #4 <- also seems ok

I'll stew on it a bit tonight and if I don't do shit tomorrow night I'll report in (is unfortunately always a max of three rounds, often gets 20+ people though, as high as 35)

First_Revenge
06-01-2017, 05:29 PM
Hey I haven’t seen this discussed on this thread and it seems very relevant to us. Ben friedman has been running an esper stoneblade list featuring 3 copies of Collective Brutality.
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-05262017-esper-stoneblade-and-dimir-garbage-in-legacy/

He goes even further into depth on the most recent leaving a legacy podcast, where he talks about this card and stoneblade in general. It’s worth a listen if you can spare the time.

At any rate he totally sold the card to me. I’m probably jamming 3 in my main deck as soon as I can get my hands on some copies. It helps solve the problem where a lot of cards in our maindeck are dead game 1. For example against combo my 4 STP and 2 Pushes(10% of my deck!!) are essentially textless. Similarly, against fair decks cards like thoughtseize can feel pretty bad. Collective Brutality seems to act as a bridge between the two so we have fewer useless game 1 cards.

The story gets better game 2 once we know what’s going on. Game 2 I’d theoretically already have access to 3 thoughtseize, 3 brutality, 4 FoW, 2 spell pierce, and a ton of SB countermagic against combo. Meanwhile against aggro I’d have 4 STP, 3 Brutality, 2 Fatal Push, and 3 sweepers.

This card also shores up our burn matchup as all 3 modes are relevant. Escalating brutality twice makes a lot of sense here.

Has anyone else considered this card? I haven’t seen it discussed in this thread as far as I’m aware and I think we might be looking at a new deathblade staple here.

tescrin
06-01-2017, 06:26 PM
Collective Brutality stuff
I like the card a lot, but I think most people are waiting for its price to go down. It's good, but it's probably not "the difference between top 8 this week and next" good I guess. Could be totally wrong but.. meh

I do think I'll eventually have some copies. It basically does what Liliana often did for decks in that it's relevant in all MUs, and filters garbage out of your hand. The fact it can do so much on T2 is part of it's appeal I think. Again Storm, if you (essentially) thoughtseize and go to 21 life, they have to storm to 11 instead. Not huge, but something for your troubles. And true, against burn, for a single spell you can Kill Eidolon, take a bolt out of their hand, and drain them for 2, paying itself off pretty well

tescrin
06-02-2017, 01:34 AM
Figured I'd report in.. 3-0! Beating UR Delver (Pyro/TNN), Topless Miracles, and BUG Delver, bringing this deck to 10-3-3 I believe at the moment. I swapped Haunt for Stifle #4.

Win 2-1
UR Delver
G1 - I start with DRS and it dies. I think I stifle a land and we exchange a card here and there. Blossom gets established and holds his delver back after a Sprite eats a spell and forms a defense. Game ends a little bit later.
G2 - Delver + Pyro + Spells kills me pretty quick. I think I get stuck with triple stifle in hand hah!
G3 - There's a little back and forth, but I land a Sprite countering a BS looking for red mana. I then successfully get Engineered Plague on human, and crucially, a flipped delver is a human. Now I Sprite a spell of his and he can't attack, play more delvers, or more pyros. Brutal. This buys me a large amount of time to establish and eventually a skull eats him.

Win 2-0
Topless miracles
G1 - Super grind fest. Hardcasted Forces and Termini and very close with Blossom eating my life. Hard to remember most of what happened other than eventually equips on dudes gets there via him running out of removal and flash giving me efficient swings. I think I finally get to Snap Stifle a land or dude at some point. I believe my skull get killed twice and then countered finally, but other equips on flash dudes get there.
G2 - I mull to 6 with Snap Snap Canonist, Priest, Land land Drs on top? DRS dies quickly and I drop a canonist. He goes SFM->BSK. I meekly drop a priest in on his turn and beat for 2. He brings the BSK down at some point. He drops a mentor and goes to play a spell and canonist stops him. He then goes to play a jace next turn and it gets quelled! No response with Canonist. I land a SFM, get Jitte to make a blossom good. And we grind like crazy. Cool play: He has a Narset (of all things) and gives a UA rebound, so I kill the target with Jitte to counter it and prevent the rebound! Leaving DRS to carry Jitte and eat the Walker. Crucially I drop a canonist with Dimir Charm in hand on the last turn. This means he can't Entreat or Terminus successfully, so I win with dimir charm in hand.

Win 2-1
BUG Delver
G1 - I die like normal with Sprite, Sprite, Sprite, Blossom vs DRS DRS Delver IIRC. We laugh about how much it looks like I'm playing faeries.
G2 - We have an entertaining game of "waste you stifle that" for a bit which leaves me with Island Plains + Stuff I can't cast (blossom mostly) and him with nothing. He establishes a pair of DRS and I get a blossom. At some point I stifle a DRS activation for damage when he has 1 land. At another point he hymns me and passes. I draw Plow and in response to his DRS getting mana, I plow the other that wants to activate. These plays probably won me the game as Blossom tokens slowly killed him over head.
G3 - I go Fetch->Swamp DRS and make a crack about getting the swamp because I hate it when they go "removal + wasteland" and start swinging. Turns out he had the nuts and I dodged it! I then play a land and pass, Stuttering an important Brainstorm. He Forces. I Force. He Forces. Brutal. I end up getting a Blossom online vs. his Delver + DRS and they beat me for 8 for a short time. The next swing however, I drop Queller, eat the DRS, block the Delver. Now we have a game. It goes south for him quite quickly despite my life total being low. I establish Sprite eating a DRS, SFM, Jitte, he scoops.



Good times! Stifle is definitely good. I was stifling things all day, between Snap-triggers, lands, crucial DRS triggers, and a Germ token. Dimir charm was pretty ok actually. I think it ate a Terminus, a DRS or something, and threatened to counter Miracle's last spell, giving me the game. I think I may stick with this, and will try Riptide for Stifle #4 later. I think for grinding it'll be quite good, and can potentially lock people out with the threat of a counter every turn. We'll see if I can get time to go this Saturday or not. Also, feel free to suggest moving this to it's own thread.

Cheers

Qweerios
06-02-2017, 11:04 AM
Thanks on the compliments! I am a *big* fan of Clique; but:
* Queller is very similar
* Clique has no trigger if Leo's on the field, which is a major one for me
* Clique's body is part of it's attraction, and the 1 toughness makes it vulnerable [similar to my feelings on TNN since I'm an against the grain kinda guy]

That's not to say that I'm immune to -1/-1 effects, but more that Sprite/Snap already did their Job, and Blossom just keeps crapping dudes.

That all said, putting cliques in again at some point seems fine. If, somehow, I'm losing to combo again I'll definitely start considering them.


EDIT: Another way to go deeper on Fae tribal I keep talking myself out of is Mutavault. Spellstutter Sprite's biggest handicap is them using removal on it in response to the trigger and getting no CA. You can turn stutter into a 3 CMC hard-counter for X-1 instead if you activate Mutavault while she's on the stack. But wastelands have been good and I'm not antsy to go to 22-24 lands.

EDIT 2: I think if I go further down this path and want answers to permanents, I'll be looking at Venser, Shaper Savant. Not quite a counter, but it gives a reliable answer to Sneakshow and Marit Lage, or even a hoof-casting since they are often out of mana when they do it.

Clique's trigger with Leovold on board can be used on yourself during your opponent's turn to cycle a card.

Sprite gets better the more faeries you have in play. If you can benefit from turning a land into a 2/2 faerie I suggest you make it an integral part of your core. SFM for equipments and Sprite both take advantage of this card. All the other utility lands don't come close to Wasteland and Mutavault as they both provide immediate and tangible effects.

Dimir Charm is garbage compared to all the other staples at that cost (Counterspell, Decay, Brutality, etc...).

If faeries is your thing check out Scryb Ranger and Edric. Now with Fatal Push there are less reasons to splash white in your UB faerie deck. Scryb is great with DRS and Edric is great with anything that flies. Also, both can be Green Sun Zenithed.

whocansay
06-03-2017, 11:46 AM
Finally managed to take my recently finished Deathblade deck to a proper event. Wasn't expecting much but went 6-1 in the end and had a blast. I'm playing a configuration that's about 95% neo900's list, except I've substituted the second Jace with a singleton Lingering Souls. Main deck Blossom, Leovold, Sofa, etc.

Won't bore you with the details but here's a quick recap of the matchups and MVPs in case someone cares:

TENDRILS 2-0
MVP: Surgical, Thoughtseize

DREDGE 2-1
MVP: Containment Priest, Meddling Mage naming Firestorm

JUND 1-0
MVP: Nemesis

MUD 2-1
MVP: Snapcaster, Batterskull

BYE

SHARDLESS 2-0
MVP: Jace, Blossom

INFECT 0-2
MVP: Not much, flooded hard.

All that said, I'm happy I didn't face any Delver decks. Still not sure about LOTV maindeck, yes she's powerful as all hell but I don't really ever wanna uptick her unless I'm hellbent, which I don't want to be either. Tough one.

Pdingo
06-05-2017, 12:25 PM
Hei Guys

I played at the Ovinogeddon (108 Players)this weekend and did top 16 (16th).

My List:
// Deathblade

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 13 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage

// 15 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

// 20 Land
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 8 Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 11 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

i won't go that deep into the Match ups..Of course if anyone has a question about a certain Match you can ask;)

Match 1 2:0 UW Casual Isochron Scepter
Match 2 2:1 Bant Deathblade
Match 3 2:0 Mono Red Sneak Attack
Match 4 0:2 Blood Moon Stompy (Mull to 5 Twice)
Match 5 2:0 UR Delver
Match 6 2:0 BUG Delver

Now i'm 5:1:1 but sadly i'm 9th and i have to play..

Match 7 0:2 DnT Without red splash

I really think Mono W Dnt is a ok match up.. sadly i draw that bad in this Match.. Basically i resolve the out Nemesis and did draw 4 lands in a row..
Game 2 Mull to a 6 hand not that great but 5 is not better otp..and i lost also.. i was a little bit salty after this because to loose this way is not fun at all..
Anyway i crushed him postboard 2 games aftet that with normal hands..
So i was 16th and i can say this List is Insane!!! It felt so good in every Match:) Never was greedy. Daze is great! TS is greater..

Greets Pascal

whocansay
06-06-2017, 02:11 AM
Congratulations, how were the Delver games? Did Daze pull its weight especially well there? Surprised their Wastelands didn't blow you out as that always seems to happen to me.

Pdingo
06-06-2017, 03:53 AM
I think against bug it's fine but when they play rug oder bug with stifle maybe its a little bit harder..of course daze can shine here;)

tescrin
06-06-2017, 01:39 PM
I found myself liking my own Stifles more than I did Daze. Daze is very comfortable, but feels much more narrow. Stifle in the late game for me was stifling SFM triggers, Snap Triggers, Miracle triggers, DRS activations etc.

I do *like* daze, but I'm not convinced I should be running Daze + Stifle in this deck haha, and the switch to stifle was very comfortable, natural, and immediately won me games. I think part of it is the requirement that you have an island, which can make openers where you want something like basic swamp off your fetch (On the draw v delver playing DRS*, IMO.) It's the difference of a full two turns of tempo.

*[Where you'll lose your DRS to removal your land will get wastelanded, and they'll have 2-3 mana when you're back at 1. If you daze here to protect the DRS, they can pay the mana with wasteland, you're still behind two turns, and then they still have a wasteland to get your next land, quite possibly putting you back another turn.]

While I won't fault you for running it, I think you should try a set of 5-6 matches with Stifle and see what you think. It also plays nicely with a convoluted manabase (stifle their waste), adds T1 plays you may not have had, and plays well with Snapcaster as Snap-Stifle is an entertaining thing to do, while snap daze is quite lame.

Molz7
06-06-2017, 06:43 PM
Hey Everyone, First post here but I've been playing this deck for years to pretty reasonable success.

I played in 2 separate events this weekend. The first was a 59 person 2k, and the other was 118 person 2.5k. I top 8d both events (actually both myself and my car mate who I test with top 8d both events). I went undefeated until the top 8 of both events. The events I was at had a very high player skill level. Ben Friedman/Jarvis Yu/Bob Huang/Kevin Jones and other proven players.

I've previously been on the no basics list with 2 decay and 2 leovolds in the main and was very happy with the deck, but for this weekend I switched those slots to 2 collective brutality and moved 1 leovold to a snapcaster. This freed up room to play an island and a swamp. I always feel that basics actually make you more vulnerable to wasteland and don't do much versus bloodmoon without many of them, but basics prooved valuable multiple times this weekend.


My list for these events was:

Main Deck:
4 Deathrite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold
1 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective brutality
4 Force of Will
1 Jace TMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Council's Judgement
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Pithing Needle



Matchups were all over the place.

First tournament was:
Round 1 - Win - UW Rest in peace/Energy Field with Land Tax/Scroll Rack.
Round 2 - Win - Burn
Round 3 - Win - Eldrazi and Taxes
Round 4 - Win - Grixis Delver
Double draw
Top 8 - Loss - Grixis Delver

Second Tournament
Round 1 - Win - Bant Deathblade
Round 2 - Win - Storm
Round 3 - Win - 4 Color Waste/Loam
Round 4 - Win - Maverick
Round 5 - Win - Topless Miracles
Round 6 - Win - Green 12 Post
Draw
Top 8 - Win - Grixis Delver
Top 4 - Loss - 4 Color Waterfall (bloodbraid/shardless/visions)


Deck performed very well and extremely tight play with some positive variance worked out well! Many games were decided by a single decision, which is why I love this deck.

I think Collective brutality was strong, but there were many times I missed decay (chalice decks, equipment, random enchantments). I did get to attack my 12 post opponent down to 2 with a TNN through an ulamog and cast collective brutality as shock, which I thoroughly enjoyed!

ryscott85
06-06-2017, 10:19 PM
Hey Everyone, First post here but I've been playing this deck for years to pretty reasonable success.

I played in 2 separate events this weekend. The first was a 59 person 2k, and the other was 118 person 2.5k. I top 8d both events (actually both myself and my car mate who I test with top 8d both events). I went undefeated until the top 8 of both events. The events I was at had a very high player skill level. Ben Friedman/Jarvis Yu/Bob Huang/Kevin Jones and other proven players.

I've previously been on the no basics list with 2 decay and 2 leovolds in the main and was very happy with the deck, but for this weekend I switched those slots to 2 collective brutality and moved 1 leovold to a snapcaster. This freed up room to play an island and a swamp. I always feel that basics actually make you more vulnerable to wasteland and don't do much versus bloodmoon without many of them, but basics prooved valuable multiple times this weekend.


My list for these events was:

Main Deck:
4 Deathrite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold
1 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective brutality
4 Force of Will
1 Jace TMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Council's Judgement
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Pithing Needle



Matchups were all over the place.

First tournament was:
Round 1 - Win - UW Rest in peace/Energy Field with Land Tax/Scroll Rack.
Round 2 - Win - Burn
Round 3 - Win - Eldrazi and Taxes
Round 4 - Win - Grixis Delver
Double draw
Top 8 - Loss - Grixis Delver

Second Tournament
Round 1 - Win - Bant Deathblade
Round 2 - Win - Storm
Round 3 - Win - 4 Color Waste/Loam
Round 4 - Win - Maverick
Round 5 - Win - Topless Miracles
Round 6 - Win - Green 12 Post
Draw
Top 8 - Win - Grixis Delver
Top 4 - Loss - 4 Color Waterfall (bloodbraid/shardless/visions)


Deck performed very well and extremely tight play with some positive variance worked out well! Many games were decided by a single decision, which is why I love this deck.

I think Collective brutality was strong, but there were many times I missed decay (chalice decks, equipment, random enchantments). I did get to attack my 12 post opponent down to 2 with a TNN through an ulamog and cast collective brutality as shock, which I thoroughly enjoyed!


I believe that I watched you playing live on Sunday. Congrats man!! The deck looks sweet; the card advantage of that waterfall deck is tough to overcome! It looked like an awesome brew though. How did the basics work out for you? Do you think that you'll add decays back and if so, would you go all non-basics.. or are you thinking just sideboard slots?

Molz7
06-06-2017, 11:31 PM
I believe that I watched you playing live on Sunday. Congrats man!! The deck looks sweet; the card advantage of that waterfall deck is tough to overcome! It looked like an awesome brew though. How did the basics work out for you? Do you think that you'll add decays back and if so, would you go all non-basics.. or are you thinking just sideboard slots?


Thanks! That waterfall deck looked super sweet, but I'm not sure how it beats combo. Main deck kolaghans command and toxic deluge was hard for me.

I think I'm happy without decay for the time being. If I played decay I wouldn't play basics. Too difficult to play decay with tundra and strix with savanna as is. I played a second councils judgment in the board due to lack of artifact destruction and it was pretty good for the random decks that show up.

First_Revenge
06-07-2017, 02:20 PM
Hey Everyone, First post here but I've been playing this deck for years to pretty reasonable success.

I played in 2 separate events this weekend. The first was a 59 person 2k, and the other was 118 person 2.5k. I top 8d both events (actually both myself and my car mate who I test with top 8d both events). I went undefeated until the top 8 of both events. The events I was at had a very high player skill level. Ben Friedman/Jarvis Yu/Bob Huang/Kevin Jones and other proven players.

I've previously been on the no basics list with 2 decay and 2 leovolds in the main and was very happy with the deck, but for this weekend I switched those slots to 2 collective brutality and moved 1 leovold to a snapcaster. This freed up room to play an island and a swamp. I always feel that basics actually make you more vulnerable to wasteland and don't do much versus bloodmoon without many of them, but basics prooved valuable multiple times this weekend.


My list for these events was:

Main Deck:
4 Deathrite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold
1 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective brutality
4 Force of Will
1 Jace TMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Council's Judgement
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Pithing Needle



Matchups were all over the place.

First tournament was:
Round 1 - Win - UW Rest in peace/Energy Field with Land Tax/Scroll Rack.
Round 2 - Win - Burn
Round 3 - Win - Eldrazi and Taxes
Round 4 - Win - Grixis Delver
Double draw
Top 8 - Loss - Grixis Delver

Second Tournament
Round 1 - Win - Bant Deathblade
Round 2 - Win - Storm
Round 3 - Win - 4 Color Waste/Loam
Round 4 - Win - Maverick
Round 5 - Win - Topless Miracles
Round 6 - Win - Green 12 Post
Draw
Top 8 - Win - Grixis Delver
Top 4 - Loss - 4 Color Waterfall (bloodbraid/shardless/visions)


Deck performed very well and extremely tight play with some positive variance worked out well! Many games were decided by a single decision, which is why I love this deck.

I think Collective brutality was strong, but there were many times I missed decay (chalice decks, equipment, random enchantments). I did get to attack my 12 post opponent down to 2 with a TNN through an ulamog and cast collective brutality as shock, which I thoroughly enjoyed!


General question, what was the topless miracles matchup like? Any advice for it? I haven't played it yet and it seems to be a big part of the meta.

Molz7
06-07-2017, 03:34 PM
General question, what was the topless miracles matchup like? Any advice for it? I haven't played it yet and it seems to be a big part of the meta.

The player I played against was very competent and I've played him in the past on regular miracles. I've noticed they are more choked on Mana than previous iterations (before was just top for a land 4 or 5 turns a game at least). This means waste land is actually good and fluster/thought seize are quite good as well. They've moved to playing some number of verdicts and they play more spot removal, so my previous plan of meddling mage terminus isn't very good anymore.

I keep in forces and plan to land a true name and counter relevant spells to push him through with a sofi. Out plows,
Jitte, strix, and a few Drs (swept up in terminus too easily) and bring in fluster, ts, judgements, meddling mage.

True name is the only card that matters really. Also expect them to have a blood moon/back to basics effect.

tescrin
06-08-2017, 11:40 AM
On Topless: My experience with Blossom was, as you can imagine, quite good. It was good before when it was the only spell you got to play until you found your lands + Decay. Now that you can actually play cards, Blossom + Dude is basically terminus land and it's only a 1-for-1 then.

I really think people need to try that card. I know the comparison to Souls, but I'm quite content when they 'answer' Blossom with souls. They eventually have a clear board and I don't, for the price of about 3 hp. Combine that with how it plays against Delver, Reanimator, Lands/Depths, Topless, etc.. it's *why* I'm in B and not G.

EDIT: I disagree on siding out DRS. Miracles normally tries to get you in the attack step. Responding to removal with damage gives them something to think about, and having him ready to halt Death-via-Snapcaster means they effectively have less removal. Note: They can still Brainstorm/Predict/(other cards?) into mid-turn Terminus, so the attack step is still a choke-point. Getting wholly around the attack step with a good clock and some grave-hate is good.

tescrin
06-09-2017, 01:05 AM
Went 3 - 0 - 1 today, beating Grixis 2-0, Elves 2-0, Shardless 2-0, and drawing with Esper Stoneblade 1-1

Can't describe a ton at the moment and it's all kinda melding together. Stuttered and Quell'd a good number of spells. Lost my 1 game to a Tasigur and a blowout maindeck EE (Blossom + Jitte!!) Won two of my games on the back of timely wastelands. Jitte with a bunch of counter backup is still good against Elves.

Puts my Queller tally at 13-3-4 I think. Same deck as last couple outings except -1 stifle, +1 Riptide Lab. I saw Riptide once or twice, and it even could've soft-locked Elves via Sprites, but the game was very much in the bag at that point.

AT87
06-10-2017, 02:48 AM
Hi to all community.
I'm a new player for Bant deck after the last ban; this is my list I usually play in my local store:

Creatures [17]
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

Instants [17]
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [2]
Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [20]
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

Sideboard [15]
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Garruk Relentless

Have you a Spreadsheet (as on page 114) complete? Or do you know what to put up and take off (on the play and on the draw) against these deck? I have some ideas but I don't know if they are right and complete:

- 12 post In: 2 Mage, 2 Toughtsize, ??? Out:???
- Aggroloam In: 2 Surgical, 2 Mage, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Toughtsize, ??? Out:???
- Dredge In: 2 Priest, 2 Surgical, 2 Mage, 2 Flusterstorm,??? Out:???
- Enchantress In: 1 Canonist, 2 Mage, 2 Zelous persecution, ??? Out:???
- Jund In: 2 Surgical, 2 Mage,??? Out:???
- Merfolk In: 2 Zelous persecution, 2 Priest, 1 Garruk Out:???
- MUD In: 2 Mage,??? Out:???
- Nic Fit In: 2 Flusterstorm,??? Out:???
- Stone/Deathblade (mirror) In: 2 Zelous persecution, 1 Vendilion,??? Out:???
- The rock In: 2 Flusterstorm,??? Out:???


This is a new deck for me and i need some advice.
Thank you.
In the coming weeks I will write tournament results.

tescrin
06-10-2017, 02:53 AM
Hi to all community.
I'm a new player for Bant deck after the last ban; this is my list I usually play in my local store:


While the Deathblade and Dark Bant lists aren't crazy different, I would probably repost in Bant with your list to get better feedback. This thread tends not to run Noble Hierarch and will normally have a single Trop, and maybe a second green source.

tescrin
06-12-2017, 02:17 PM
Got a 3-0-1 (ID) again on Sat with my Queller brew. Made a dedicated thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31749-Quellblade) for those interested. While I get 3-0's aren't the coolest thing that's ever been, that's the 4th 3-0 in a row. If anyone is interested in testing this variant to help find if it has the legs I think it does, that'd be 2cool4school.

First_Revenge
06-13-2017, 01:47 AM
Here’s the list I ran this week. I’ve had a bad run recently so I felt it was necessary to shake my deck up a bit.
The list:
Lands-21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Creatures-13

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


Spells: 23

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares


Artifacts: 2

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte


Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meddling Mage
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push


Match 1: Elves(2-1 Win)

Game 1:
I start the hand on a 3 land, batterskull, thoughtseize, and 2 collective brutality. I take away his craterhoof and murder his first two dudes with brutality. He proceeds to draw two symbiotes in a row which pretty much shuts off all my removal. He does elf things and I can’t keep the elves off the table thanks to his two symbiotes, I end up losing.

Game 2:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Thoughtseize
+1 Engineered Explovies
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persection
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Meddling Mage
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Containment Priest
He walks into a T2 engineered explosives on 1, taking out 4 of his dudes. My deck kinda durdles. I don’t find any threats until late so I’m unable to capitalize on the 4 for 1. I give him enough time to refill and he ends up casting natural order. Turns out he forgot to side in progenitus so he gets craterhoof instead, which eats a swords. My TNNs eventually get there, but it’s a long grindy game.
Game 3:
Pretty textbook game from my perspective. I hit him with 2 removal spells, surgical extraction targeting his AD, and play meddling mage naming natural order. TNN with jitte follows shortly thereafter and seals the game up.

Match 2: MUD(2-1) Win

Game 1:
I’ve always struggled with this matchup, probably one of the few times I’ve won playing against this particular pilot. Game 1 is pretty miserable, opens with a trinisphere and slowly gets up to 8 mana. I desperation thoughtseize and see a Ugin and a Sundering Titan, I can’t beat either and I scoop em up.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Disenchant
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Meddling Mage
+1 Engineered Explovies
He mulligans to 5. The game stalls out with him at 9 life when he sacrifices forgemaster to fetch a platinum empirion. At this point I have a TNN+Jitte and a Deathrite in play. We are both pretty much out of cards at this point. I swing at him until jitte has 8 counters on it and kill the empirion. The next turn TNN+Jitte and a DRS activation present lethal.

Game 3:
Pretty much drew the nuts. 2 FoW, Spell Pierce, STP, Disenchant, 2 lands. Manage to stop his draw by countering his chalice, grim monolith, and killing both his metalworkers. Stabilized with TNN+Jitte and win from there.

Match 3: Sneak and Show(Draw)
We were the only 2-0s left so we just drew but played it out.
Honestly not much to write here, the games were pretty disappointing. Both games ended up getting super awkward hands that couldn’t really do much. Had we played it out I would have lost this 0-2. We played a third game for fun and my deck finally decided to show up so I won that one.


Overall, got there with a bit of luck. First good finish in a while so that definitely felt good. Collective brutality felt great and it was really the key card i wanted to test this week. It only really felt awkward in the MUD matchup which was okay I guess, it’s not a matchup I see frequently enough to really account for. Games 2 and 3 against elves felt markedly better thanks to the absurd amount of critter removal i had. I imagine i would have felt the same about the sneak and show matchup if i had gotten to play real games :(.

tescrin
06-13-2017, 11:19 AM
Game 2:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Thoughtseize


I would be highly surprised if others thought this was correct. You absolutely keep FoW, and IMO, thoughtseize. I don't know why you'd not only cut your interaction, but specifically the interaction you're in blue for.

I'd go:
-2 Jace
-1 BSK [slow, doesn't actually do damage, doesn't give you a life cushion that matters]
-2 Spierce
-2 Wasteland [it's interaction sometimes, but not usually, and you don't have the dudes to shave. We also lowered our curve]
-2 Ponder? [the deck is very dense at this point with removal/disruption]

I can sort of see why you did that, but at that point why be blue? I've played the match a lot as a Junk player in years passed and I for the life of me cannot imagine dropping Forces now. The entire point of the elf MU is: Have a counter ready for Hoof/GSZ/NO*, disrupt them while you get an active Jitte or active SoFaI (it's nice to have when they needle/kill Jitte) and don't die to DRS activations. That's the whole game. I've gotten my last 4 Elf MUs in a row (2-0, 2-0, 2-1, 2-0) and can't remember the last time I lost to them (I was on hiatus for awhile.) I get that by the time you've gotten to 13 removal (4 are sweepers), maybe that's comfortable, but keeping the slow cards over protection that lets you deploy SFM on T2, that's crazy talk. Thoughtseize lets you see what they're up to as well, so you can deploy said Jitte if you don't have Force without having to worry.

*I normally risk it with Glimpses as I haven't seen a successful one for a very long time. They get some value, but if you're gonna sweep or Jitte the board anyway, it's normally too late for them.


I'm just really surprised

First_Revenge
06-13-2017, 02:08 PM
I would be highly surprised if others thought this was correct. You absolutely keep FoW, and IMO, thoughtseize. I don't know why you'd not only cut your interaction, but specifically the interaction you're in blue for.

I'd go:
-2 Jace
-1 BSK [slow, doesn't actually do damage, doesn't give you a life cushion that matters]
-2 Spierce
-2 Wasteland [it's interaction sometimes, but not usually, and you don't have the dudes to shave. We also lowered our curve]
-2 Ponder? [the deck is very dense at this point with removal/disruption]

I can sort of see why you did that, but at that point why be blue? I've played the match a lot as a Junk player in years passed and I for the life of me cannot imagine dropping Forces now. The entire point of the elf MU is: Have a counter ready for Hoof/GSZ/NO*, disrupt them while you get an active Jitte or active SoFaI (it's nice to have when they needle/kill Jitte) and don't die to DRS activations. That's the whole game. I've gotten my last 4 Elf MUs in a row (2-0, 2-0, 2-1, 2-0) and can't remember the last time I lost to them (I was on hiatus for awhile.) I get that by the time you've gotten to 13 removal (4 are sweepers), maybe that's comfortable, but keeping the slow cards over protection that lets you deploy SFM on T2, that's crazy talk. Thoughtseize lets you see what they're up to as well, so you can deploy said Jitte if you don't have Force without having to worry.

*I normally risk it with Glimpses as I haven't seen a successful one for a very long time. They get some value, but if you're gonna sweep or Jitte the board anyway, it's normally too late for them.


I'm just really surprised

It’s probably incorrect now that I think about it, but that’s why I post.

FoW was removed since I generally perceive elves as a grindy matchup, 2-1’ing myself didn’t seem great. The thought did occur to me that dumping them left me soft to GSZ/Natural Order. GSZ didn’t really bother me too much since I figured I could keep enough elves off the board to make craterhoof less of a problem. Natural order I generally figured I’d have containment priest, meddling mage, and counterspell as hard outs, which didn’t seem terrible.

Thoughtseize I don’t really like. On the one hand I understand what you’re getting at, take away key cards and get hand information. But I guess I was thinking that if I just keep jamming more removal I’ll prevent elves from ever getting the critical mass required to make cards like hoof/glimpse playable.

I see where you’re coming from with batterskull, but I don’t have a SOFI in my SB, so going down to just 1 equipment seemed dangerous. I’ve also never really considered trimming mana from my deck, but what you’re saying makes sense assuming you take out top end cards like jace. Ponder I’m pretty hesitant to yank, frankly I just never feel like they’re bad.

Having taken this into account I’d probably try something like this next time:
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Wasteland
-2 Jace
-2 Pierce
+ All my killspells

Thanks for the feedback!

tescrin
06-13-2017, 03:00 PM
Yeah I can get behind that. I can go either way with Thoughtseize. Since I haven't been running Discard (in part because I'm limiting my interaction with Leo so that he's not the bomb he's meant to be) I am less sure anymore when it's appropriate. I've definitely lost T2 to Elves (this was in Junk) when I went "Thoughtseize", didn't see the T2 loss and took the wrong thing thinking I'd get more time. My Face When?!*

*[I am indeed hip with the children.]

I've been pretty down on discard for awhile. Not sure if it'll come into favor for me or not, but controlling the stack and then limiting your opponent with Permanents is quite nice

Pdingo
06-16-2017, 07:03 PM
Yes deserved dtb:)

Did 4:0 again with my list from ovinogeddon;)
Just -2 Ponder -1 snapi + 2 Decay +1 True name.
Like it better, more decay main is probably needed.
Match ups:

2:0 Jund
2:1 75 card Mirror
2:1 Affinity
2:1 Grixis Delver

Ask for questions greets

Pascal

Scott
06-16-2017, 08:43 PM
"Blade Control" on TCDecks includes many instances of U/W Blade (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23244&iddeck=180079), UWR Blade (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23248&iddeck=180110), Bladestill (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23248&iddeck=180107), and Esperblade (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23245&iddeck=180091), and Deathblade had just 1 placing in May, so I'm not sure why it was moved up to DTB, to be honest. Separated, none make DTB, and grouped together, Deathblade is not nearly the most-represented within the group.

Pdingo
06-17-2017, 05:35 AM
don,t matter it's probably a deck to beat at the moment;)

ryscott85
06-17-2017, 11:14 PM
Hey Everyone, First post here but I've been playing this deck for years to pretty reasonable success.

I played in 2 separate events this weekend. The first was a 59 person 2k, and the other was 118 person 2.5k. I top 8d both events (actually both myself and my car mate who I test with top 8d both events). I went undefeated until the top 8 of both events. The events I was at had a very high player skill level. Ben Friedman/Jarvis Yu/Bob Huang/Kevin Jones and other proven players.

I've previously been on the no basics list with 2 decay and 2 leovolds in the main and was very happy with the deck, but for this weekend I switched those slots to 2 collective brutality and moved 1 leovold to a snapcaster. This freed up room to play an island and a swamp. I always feel that basics actually make you more vulnerable to wasteland and don't do much versus bloodmoon without many of them, but basics prooved valuable multiple times this weekend.


My list for these events was:

Main Deck:
4 Deathrite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold
1 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective brutality
4 Force of Will
1 Jace TMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Council's Judgement
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Pithing Needle



Matchups were all over the place.

First tournament was:
Round 1 - Win - UW Rest in peace/Energy Field with Land Tax/Scroll Rack.
Round 2 - Win - Burn
Round 3 - Win - Eldrazi and Taxes
Round 4 - Win - Grixis Delver
Double draw
Top 8 - Loss - Grixis Delver

Second Tournament
Round 1 - Win - Bant Deathblade
Round 2 - Win - Storm
Round 3 - Win - 4 Color Waste/Loam
Round 4 - Win - Maverick
Round 5 - Win - Topless Miracles
Round 6 - Win - Green 12 Post
Draw
Top 8 - Win - Grixis Delver
Top 4 - Loss - 4 Color Waterfall (bloodbraid/shardless/visions)


Deck performed very well and extremely tight play with some positive variance worked out well! Many games were decided by a single decision, which is why I love this deck.

I think Collective brutality was strong, but there were many times I missed decay (chalice decks, equipment, random enchantments). I did get to attack my 12 post opponent down to 2 with a TNN through an ulamog and cast collective brutality as shock, which I thoroughly enjoyed!


Do you know if they've posted the results yet? I couldn't find them on mtgtop8 or tcdecks

Pdingo
06-18-2017, 01:29 PM
Hei guys
Today i won the 1k Tournament with my deathblade list.
37 player and 6 rounds with top 8.

I postet my list 2 days ago.

Match ups..i wont go that deep into the games, just note the important points.

2:0 MUD Post
2:1 Belcher
1:2 eldrazi( g1 i won with batterskul, and g2 i played horrible and deserve to lose..not force a chalice is just bad normaly, g3 i drawet really bad..)
2:1 ANT
1:2 Eldrazi( won again g1 and g2 i really lost to flooded and after shuffling 2 ts away i drawet them again, g3 horrible hand on 6 but had to keep)
2:1 GW Maverick (g2 lost to not draw a land after i had 2 trop..g3 Jace wins here with card advange)

Top 8 with 4:2 and last @ standing..

2:0 Mono Red Sneak attack (he missplayed horrible at g2 with his 6/6 first strike golem *not sure on the name* and i'm also on 6 but i played batterskull and had a contaiment prieston my side, he didn't notide that he's on six life.. so i blocked with batterskull and just equip for the win;)

2:1 UR Delver
G1 he won after alot of turns.. g2 I win with just 1 wasteland
G3 wasteland wins here again and he is stuck on 2 islands.

Finale!:
2:1 Lands
G1 i win with double force and shaman
G2 he does what lands does
G3 after a really really long game i can play a jace even he had punishing fire..with this i can fix the game and play everything in the next few turns..he never found his loam..also i exiled all lands in his gy with double shaman early.

So gg guys

Greets Pascal

Misersoneof
06-20-2017, 12:04 AM
Hei guys
Today i won the 1k Tournament with my deathblade list.
37 player and 6 rounds with top 8.

I postet my list 2 days ago.



Where is this list? The only list I can see that you've posted recently is this one from over two weeks ago.



Hei Guys

I played at the Ovinogeddon (108 Players)this weekend and did top 16 (16th).

My List:
// Deathblade

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 13 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage

// 15 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

// 20 Land
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 8 Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 11 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

Pdingo
06-20-2017, 03:50 AM
@misersoneof

Yes its this list - 1 snapcaster -2 ponder + 1 true name + 2 decay.. sb -2 decay +1 diabolic edict + 1 canonist

Greets

RPD
06-21-2017, 05:45 AM
Hi! I'm new to the deck and I need some insight for some cards.

Daze and FoW: When to sideboard them out? I know that there are lots of play/draw considerations with them but I can't find good articles/spreadsheets on how to use them

Meddling mage: I see that most lists play 2 meddling mage in the sideboard. Where do I sideboard them in, and what do I usually want to name?

Thanks:smile:

First_Revenge
06-21-2017, 11:16 AM
Hi! I'm new to the deck and I need some insight for some cards.

Daze and FoW: When to sideboard them out? I know that there are lots of play/draw considerations with them but I can't find good articles/spreadsheets on how to use them

Meddling mage: I see that most lists play 2 meddling mage in the sideboard. Where do I sideboard them in, and what do I usually want to name?

Thanks:smile:

The questions you're asking are really broad and more than anything boil down to experience frankly. Thus you’re unlikely to find the explicit answers you’re looking for.

Generally speaking I board out FoW against other fair decks where I anticipate the match going long. Remember FoW is card disadvantage, repeatedly 2-1’ing yourself over the course of a long game is undesireable.

I don’t know enough about daze to add anything of value.

For meddling mage my most frequent namings are show and tell/sneak attack/natural order. In general his sweetspot is against combo decks with few ways to deal with permanent based hate. But more often than not it just depends what I’m doing on board or the game plan I’m trying to execute. There are no hard/fast rules here. I would actually recommend taking them out of the time being until you gain more experience with the deck and understand what you want to name.

tescrin
06-21-2017, 11:28 AM
I'm on a Stifle plan, but I tend to keep 2+ Forces around anyway. I left one in against D&T the other day and it actually nip'd a crucial spell unexpectedly (a reset skull I think?) But Force is one of the only things that kills TNNs and equips; so I find that I side it out a lot less than expected. Siding some out is good as doing that to yourself multiple times is a big deal, but leaving some in can be helpful. For similar reasons, I tended to keep in some number of Daze, but I only ever ran 3 daze in non-delver decks as it seemed to feel good.

Normally Delver advice is drop dazes (or most of them) on the Draw, drop Forces (or most of them) on the play. Start with that and adjust to taste. I think you'd be good to just google it a bit from there to figure out the full line of reasoning rather than me typing a bunch of fairly uninteresting paragraphs that have been typed many times before, and probably better :)

EDIT: It's worth noting that how many of what you leave in is "wrong" by tradition at times, which is what makes it correct at times. Being able to meta-game your opponent because they sideboarded for you is a big deal. This got me one time against miracles some years back where I jammed an absolutely crucial.. Thopter Foundry? (I was on some kind of Tezz build.) I expected he had boarded out forces, so I forced his Pierce, felt pretty good. Then he forced my force and I literally just lost on T2 or so because I over-committed on a spell based on expecting him to have boarded forces out.

limbo
06-21-2017, 01:32 PM
Meddling mage: I see that most lists play 2 meddling mage in the sideboard. Where do I sideboard them in, and what do I usually want to name?


Generally Meddling Mage comes in against two classes of deck: Combo decks that have critical components (most of them) and engine decks. What you name depends on the known information in the game (your hand, their hand, board state, available mana, etc). It is not a trivial card. Here is a very short, very not complete list of targets to name:

Sneak and Show: Show and Tell, Sneak Attack (putting it in off of Show and Tell against the Omni decks can allow you to lock out cunning wish or Emrakul)
ANT: Infernal Tutor, LED, or a known wincon (be careful naming win cons in post board games as they typically have removal and multiple different win cons).
Elves: NO, Glimpse (which one depends on which one your hand interacts with better), GSZ, abrupt decay.
Dredge: Dread Return
Lands: Punishing Fire then Life from the Loam (you often want to turn off removal before attacking the engine if the state game allows)
Aluren: Cavern Harpy, Aluren
Food Chain: Food Chain, Walking Ballista

As you play more you will also find that sometime you bring them in against control decks to change up the game strategy. I realize this is not a hugely informative post, but the question is broad. Hopefully this helps you think about the card.

walked
06-21-2017, 02:36 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on the list I'm tuning?

http://i.imgur.com/o438eSX.jpg

Cropped the sideboard out a bit mostly because I couldnt get it to fit; and it's far from being finalized.
In paper I'm +1 TNN, -1 Leovold as TNN is absurg on MTGO.

Any other tweaks to suggest - for those with more seat time :)

tarmogoat
06-22-2017, 06:18 PM
Coming from a D&T and Br Reanimator background, I am just about finishing my pool of cards to be playing Deathblade (only forces away at this stage).

I was thinking about something along these lines:

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
4x Deathrite Shaman

4x Daze
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Umezawa's Jitte

2x True-Name Nemesis

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Force of Will
1x Batterskull

1x Gurmag Angler

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp

1x Karakas
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Fatal Push
1x Flusterstorm
1x Meddling Mage
1x Containment Priest
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Supreme Verdict

But having no real experience with the deck I figured I would come here looking for advice on where/how to start building the deck. I am not sure of the Pros/Cons of choosing Deathblade over Stoneblade (or Blade Control), but I figure if I'm going to splash black I might as well enjoy Deathrite Shaman.

First_Revenge
06-23-2017, 11:49 AM
Any other tweaks to suggest - for those with more seat time :)

Unfortunately, a lot of the players on this thread are from the esper deathblade variant. Bant being the new kid on the block kinda got rolled in with us recently, so at least personally I’m not in the best position to evaluate your deck. That being said -1 Leovold +1TNN is a good call imo as leovold can be tough to cast. That being said the rest of your deck looks pretty standard compared to what everyone else is running.



But having no real experience with the deck I figured I would come here looking for advice on where/how to start building the deck. I am not sure of the Pros/Cons of choosing Deathblade over Stoneblade (or Blade Control), but I figure if I'm going to splash black I might as well enjoy Deathrite Shaman.

This deck I can address. As far as I can really tell there are 5 blade variants running around, here’s quick rundown of each. UW stoneblade really enjoys a simple manabase. Without deathrites or black it tends to run a more reactive gameplan, lots of counterspells. Esper stoneblade complicates the manabase by adding black, but it gains proactive hate cards like thoughtseize and other powerful cards found in black. Esper deathblade cuts some of the control from esper stoneblade in order to leverage the power of deathrite shaman. Deathrite shaman is a powerhouse on his own and unlocks the ability to slam down turn two TNNs or leovolds. Bant deathblade feels like more of a tempo variant of stoneblade. It goes all in on a 4 color manase with 8 mana dorks to consistently power out turn 2 TNNs or leovolds. It’s less controlling as a result. UWR is another tempo variant of stoneblade but it runs red for bolts/fireblasts.

So let’s start with the manabase, by my count 22 lands. I do appreciate the 4 basics, they’ve definitely got me out from under a lot of blood moons. That being said, I think you’ll run into color problems. You have too many lands that don’t tap for blue. 4 Wasteland seems pretty excessive and bayou probably should be a tropical island. I’d wager you end up wanting another fetch in there, but I’m not sure what to cut.
-1 Wasteland
-1 Bayou
+1 Tropical
+1 Underground Sea

I’m not convinced stifle has a place in this deck. Stifle seems more like a tempo play, and frankly we are just not a tempo deck. If you cut the stifles I’d probably go something like +2 spell pierce and +2 collective brutality. I like collective brutality a lot since it shores up both creature and combo matchups.

4 thoughtseize is probably excessive. I found 3 to be a good number since it can be a pretty miserable late game draw. Put another TNN in its place. In any case I’d HIGHLY recommend 3 TNNs.

Daze is another card I’m not sure what to do with. I’ve gotten conflicting reports that its good, but I still don’t think it has a home in our deck. As such I’ll leave it to you to decide what you want to do here. Assuming you do cut it I’d run +1 snapcaster mage, +2 ponder, and +1 leovold.

Regarding your sideboard, the only thing I have objection to is karakas. From experience karakas has felt pretty weak to me. Karakas vs a griselbrand feels really bad. Karakas does work vs marit lage, but generally speaking those decks will just wasteland your karakas and make another marit lage. So karakas is either a non-answer or a bandage on a larger problem. Your time is probably better spent preventing those cards from ever hitting the field. As such I’d probably add another flusterstorm.

tarmogoat
06-24-2017, 03:19 AM
This deck I can address. As far as I can really tell there are 5 blade variants running around, here’s quick rundown of each. UW stoneblade really enjoys a simple manabase. Without deathrites or black it tends to run a more reactive gameplan, lots of counterspells. Esper stoneblade complicates the manabase by adding black, but it gains proactive hate cards like thoughtseize and other powerful cards found in black. Esper deathblade cuts some of the control from esper stoneblade in order to leverage the power of deathrite shaman. Deathrite shaman is a powerhouse on his own and unlocks the ability to slam down turn two TNNs or leovolds. Bant deathblade feels like more of a tempo variant of stoneblade. It goes all in on a 4 color manase with 8 mana dorks to consistently power out turn 2 TNNs or leovolds. It’s less controlling as a result. UWR is another tempo variant of stoneblade but it runs red for bolts/fireblasts.

So let’s start with the manabase, by my count 22 lands. I do appreciate the 4 basics, they’ve definitely got me out from under a lot of blood moons. That being said, I think you’ll run into color problems. You have too many lands that don’t tap for blue. 4 Wasteland seems pretty excessive and bayou probably should be a tropical island. I’d wager you end up wanting another fetch in there, but I’m not sure what to cut.
-1 Wasteland
-1 Bayou
+1 Tropical
+1 Underground Sea

I’m not convinced stifle has a place in this deck. Stifle seems more like a tempo play, and frankly we are just not a tempo deck. If you cut the stifles I’d probably go something like +2 spell pierce and +2 collective brutality. I like collective brutality a lot since it shores up both creature and combo matchups.

4 thoughtseize is probably excessive. I found 3 to be a good number since it can be a pretty miserable late game draw. Put another TNN in its place. In any case I’d HIGHLY recommend 3 TNNs.

Daze is another card I’m not sure what to do with. I’ve gotten conflicting reports that its good, but I still don’t think it has a home in our deck. As such I’ll leave it to you to decide what you want to do here. Assuming you do cut it I’d run +1 snapcaster mage, +2 ponder, and +1 leovold.

Regarding your sideboard, the only thing I have objection to is karakas. From experience karakas has felt pretty weak to me. Karakas vs a griselbrand feels really bad. Karakas does work vs marit lage, but generally speaking those decks will just wasteland your karakas and make another marit lage. So karakas is either a non-answer or a bandage on a larger problem. Your time is probably better spent preventing those cards from ever hitting the field. As such I’d probably add another flusterstorm.

Thanks a lot for the feedback. Where I play we don't have a very large Legacy metagame, Storm is practically a myth (aka, no one plays it). In our meta it's all about delvers, eldrazi and reanimator, with some lands, D&T and some blue based control decks (blade, shardless). It's a pretty fair meta, so I wanted to take full advantage of the mana denial plan that Wasteland + Stifle provide, paired with Daze it can become really hard to overcome. Maybe it's my mind that can't quit mana screwing people (coming from D&T) and not allowing them to play magic. Perhaps that is wrong. I don't know where to go with the deck to be honest, too many directions...

In my manabase I removed the 4 basics and added 2 Flats and 1 Tundra, I went down to 21 cause it felt too floody and basics were punishing. I am running Bayou cause I don't have a trop, I do have a Savannah but it feels worse. I also don't have a 3rd seas.

Perhaps I should be playing -4 Daze -4 Stifle +2 Snapcaster Mage, +2 Baleful Strix, +2 Ponder +2 Counterspell? I don't know, I feel like I enjoy more playing tempo variants of decks than full-on control. But I guess this deck is more control-y than tempo.

From the board I replaced Karakas with a Diabolic Edict to have an out vs Marit Lage.

First_Revenge
06-25-2017, 09:03 PM
Thanks a lot for the feedback. Where I play we don't have a very large Legacy metagame, Storm is practically a myth (aka, no one plays it). In our meta it's all about delvers, eldrazi and reanimator, with some lands, D&T and some blue based control decks (blade, shardless). It's a pretty fair meta, so I wanted to take full advantage of the mana denial plan that Wasteland + Stifle provide, paired with Daze it can become really hard to overcome. Maybe it's my mind that can't quit mana screwing people (coming from D&T) and not allowing them to play magic. Perhaps that is wrong. I don't know where to go with the deck to be honest, too many directions...

In my manabase I removed the 4 basics and added 2 Flats and 1 Tundra, I went down to 21 cause it felt too floody and basics were punishing. I am running Bayou cause I don't have a trop, I do have a Savannah but it feels worse. I also don't have a 3rd seas.

Perhaps I should be playing -4 Daze -4 Stifle +2 Snapcaster Mage, +2 Baleful Strix, +2 Ponder +2 Counterspell? I don't know, I feel like I enjoy more playing tempo variants of decks than full-on control. But I guess this deck is more control-y than tempo.

From the board I replaced Karakas with a Diabolic Edict to have an out vs Marit Lage.

I definitely would not advise pulling the basics out. I understand the dual land availability issue, but no basics puts you in an awkward place. The stoneblade decks not running basics are generally 4 color, adding green for noble hierarch or AD typically. They trade in the stability of basics for cards in green. Your blade deck is really 3.5c, with a single green source for DRS activations. But you have no basics, so you open yourself to all the problems of no basics(blood moons/wastelands) without also getting to leverage the power of green. At least IMO you get put in an awkward spot.

I’d suggest only adding +1 counterspell, it’s a good catchall but can be kinda clunky. Make the 2nd counterspell another TNN. You really should be running 3, DRS into a T2 TNN is really good.

Part of the beauty of stoneblade is that it’s configurable to almost any direction you want to go. This particular direction is probably more controlling than tempo. If you want to try tempo, try bant deathblade or even UWR stoneblade.

tescrin
06-27-2017, 10:41 AM
Coming from a D&T and Br Reanimator background, I am just about finishing my pool of cards to be playing Deathblade (only forces away at this stage).

I was thinking about something along these lines:

[cards]
But having no real experience with the deck I figured I would come here looking for advice on where/how to start building the deck. I am not sure of the Pros/Cons of choosing Deathblade over Stoneblade (or Blade Control), but I figure if I'm going to splash black I might as well enjoy Deathrite Shaman.

Stoneblade tends to do better for reasons I don't think anyone understands (haha), it's probably because basically DRS is instead Ponder, increasing consistency and reducing blowouts? Also, when this was always in actual 4-colors (where as now it's usually a 1x Trop for reanimator and whatnot), it was very prone to just shitting on itself.

Getting to it; I see you have only 10 threats (I think?). [Note: you'll get more/better feedback if you write your decklist is a more comprehensible style (which is usually Dudes in a block, non-creature non-land permanents in a block, sorceries/instants in a block, lands in a block) as then we can very quickly see how it looks compared to other lists (kinda like a barcode?)] You're also running a *full* tempo package without Delver and with Jace; this is guaranteed to be a bad plan in the long run.

Bant can run Daze + Jace effectively because they run 8 mana dudes, so they're often flooding anyway. Daze when you have 4 mana guys can be fine but usually there will be a wasteland fired somewhere, a daze casted or your DRS killed, and you'll find Jace waiting a long time to come down.

IMO; start by dropping 4 Daze, addnig 2-3 Lingering Souls, then filling in the other cards you mentioned (Strix/Ponder/etc.) Souls are great against almost every deck out there as a clock, disruption for planeswalkers, discard fodder, etc..

First_Revenge
06-27-2017, 11:33 AM
Same list as last week.
Lands-21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Creatures-13

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


Spells: 23

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares


Artifacts: 2

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte


Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meddling Mage
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push


Fairly disappointing week, went 1-2, common thread seemed to be that my deck was threat light.

Match 1: Eldrazi(2-0 Win)
Game 1: Opponent takes a mulligan. I’m looking at 2 wastelands, a fetchland, FoW, brainstorm and some other stuff. I keep it hoping he’s playing a lot of nonbasics. Eye of ugin T1 tells me I made a lucky call in the dark. Double wastelands slow him down immensely. Eventually TNN+Jitte get there.

Game 2:
Sideboard:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Leovold
-1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Disenchant
+1 Meddling Mage

Game 2: Get a hand of double TNNs, SFM, a collective brutality, and some fetchlands. Opponent starts off with Chalice on 1, which is normally backbreaking, but given my hand I was okay with it. Was able to hold him off with double TNNs, and eventually tutored up batterskull and glued it to a TNN for the win.

Match 2: UWR Stoneblade(0-2 Loss)
Game 1: Opponent was Mitchell Nguyen, placed 14th at Vegas on UWR stoneblade, and he ran the same thing tonight. Game 1 was frustrating, he landed a T2 SFM into batterskull and I essentially failed to find any relevant answers over the next 4 turns despite a brainstorm and a ponder.

Game 2:
Sideboard:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 Counterspell
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Disenchant

Game durdled for a while. I tried to land at T3 TNN, he counters it and lands his own. I play engineered plague on merfolk to deal with his TNN, but I also lock myself out of my own TNNs. I land a jace next turn and brainstorm for a while. Finding the occasional SFM and both TNNs, but I’m unable to cast them. He eventually pyroblasts the jace and kills me with a SFM. The big mistake was definitely playing engineered plague. Put it in just in case his TNNs got out of hand, but it definitely ended up hurting me more.

Match 3: BUG Delver(0-2 Loss)
Game 1: I thankfully have enough fetches to play around his wastelands, even manage to get around his stifles too. Unfortunately he lands a delver which pings me down to 10 some odd life before I find a killspell to deal with it. I swords the delver and he follows up with a tombstalker to seal the deal.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Leovold
-1 FoW
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Toxic Deluge
Pretty frustrating game a well. Opening hand is an island, some fetches, and a pile of killspells. Snap keep. We trade resources for a while, I deal with all his critters, but I simply can’t find a threat. Mid game I flood out, drawing 4 lands in a row and things slide out of control. I eventually find a TNN but it’s way too late, and he kills me the next turn. After the game we did a count, and I ended up killing 7 of his creatures. But without landing a creature of my own i just couldn’t put a clock on him. Supremely frustrating.


I’ll give this a spin for another week or two, but i’m already thinking of changes I want to make. Probably substitute out Vendilion Clique for another snapcaster mage. I think I do want SFM #4, and maybe a SoFI maindeck as well. Gurmag Angler might even work his way in somewhere.

First_Revenge
06-28-2017, 11:48 AM
The gf is away so I got an extra day of legacy! Went to a different local shop called spellhold games, stayed up later than I’d like but the turnout was great, 28 people for a weekly. My normal shop has 8-10.

List stayed the same as yesterday’s. Went 2-1-1.

Match 1: Topless Miracles(2-0 Win)
Game 1: He fetches basic island, and I more or less guess he’s on topless right away. I lead off with T1 Deathrite into a T2 clique. He cantrips a bunch but doesn’t really do anything. He attempts to flash in a clique of his own, and we get into a counter war over it, which I win. Dealing 5 damage a turn is a fast enough clock and he folds.

Game 2:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Meddling Mage
+1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Surgical Extraction

Game 2 is much the same. I open with TNN, brainstorm, 2 thoughtseize, FoW, and some lands. He mulligans, T1 thoughtseize reveals 2 ponders, FoW, and blood moon. I take a Ponder. Next turn I take the blood moon. And the following turn I jam through a TNN with FoW backup. After this it’s pretty much a repeat of the previous game. TNN beats him down and he just spins his wheels. On his final turn he goes through around 3 cantrips digging for the terminus which he never finds. TNN gets in for lethal.

Match 2: DnT(0-2 Loss)
Game 1: Got something like double Collective Brutality and some fetches. Opponent just drops a T2 Thalia and starts porting me down making brutality really awkward. I kind of fend him off, but my deck never really manages to get out from under the ports and I end up losing.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Counterspell
-1 Jace
-1 FoW
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Fatal Push
Kinda the same story as game 1. I end up keeping a 1 land hand with ponder. I fetch an island, ponder and see a swamp, spell pierce, and jitte. I end up keeping the cards for the basic swamp, but it slows me down dramatically. End up stuck off white for a long time and can’t cast STP, while Engineered Plague ends up rotting in hand thanks to thalia. Probably a greedy keep not drastically helped by a leadoff ponder with a basic land I wanted, but no way to shuffle away the other two.

Match 3: Burn(2-1 Win)
Game 1: Not knowing what I’m playing against I lead off with Underground Sea into thoughtseize and see its burn. My hand had a TNN, stoneforge, and I think a FoW. Stoneforge gets bolted and I can’t find more countermagic. Burn does burn things and takes me down to 0 life.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 FoW
-1 Jace
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Meddling Mage
Open with some countermagic, collective brutality and TNN. TNN manages to hold off the ground game while the countermagic deals with burn spells. Brutality to kill a critter and drain/gain tossing away extra land from goblin guide is brutal for burn. Eventually I clear the board and TNN punches through for the win.

Game 3:
Much the same story. Two TNNs clog up the ground game and 2 collective brutalities buy me the time to seal it up. Jace gets resolved and I continuously bounce his eidolon so I can keep brainstorming into my deck. End up winning at 1 life left.

Match 4: Grixis Delver (ID)
It was getting late so we intentionally drew. Played two games for fun. Don’t really remember much of it. Game 1 he just tempos me out. Game 2 I drag him into the late game and beat him with card quality. Collective brutality drain/gain keeps me out of lightning bolt range giving me enough time for TNN to close it out.


Deck felt much better today. Collective brutality still feels great, although its way worse against Dnt than I thought. Maybe got a bit unlucky not getting fatal pushes/STPs to make brutality more viable, but generally felt bad watching those rot in hand. Against topless it felt like an overpriced thoughtseize which was fine. Against burn/grixis it was an all-star flex card and probably outright won me the burn matchup.

tescrin
06-28-2017, 12:27 PM
D&T is probably one of the worst MUs for Brutality, just because it only has one good mode, and that mode doesn't hit Crusader or mom-protected dudes; which is a sad.

First_Revenge
07-04-2017, 05:33 PM
Happy 4th of july! Went 2-0-1 this week, ran the same list and I’m liking it so far.

Match 1: Aeon Bridge(2-0 Win)

Game 1: Beforehand I had played a few warmups with this guy, probably the only reason I ended up winning since I had no idea how the deck functioned. In a nutshell it’s a show and tell deck that tries to cheat emrakul into play. It has a backup plan of mosswort bridge to tuck an emrakul and phyrexian dreadnought to activate the bridge. Also plays stifles to make a T2 dreadnought.

Game 1 it ends on T2 when he attempts to resolve SnT off of lotus petal, island and tropical island. We get into a counter war and I win it. Next turn I follow up with a wasteland and stick leovold. He can’t cantrip anymore and he’s at least 2 lands off abrupt decay. SFM next turn ends it shortly thereafter.

Game 2:
-3 TNN
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Meddling Mage
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Invasive Surgery

I open the game with a ton of counter magic. He opens with a mosswort tucking an emrakul. I thoughtseize and take his SnT, and cast surgical extraction to remove the rest of them. His only out is to resolve dreadnought to bring emrakul back in. He doesn’t find a dreadnought in time, and SFM+Batterskull closes out the game.


Match 2: BUG Delver(2-0 Win)

Game 1: Probably one of the most miserable games of magic I’ve played in a while. For about 8-9 turns I drew nothing but discard spells/lands, and my opponent drew nothing but lands/counterspells. The game lasted way longer than it should have after I walked a TNN into a FoW that I knew about. Eventually he finds a TNN and starts beating me down. I find TNN+SFM and glue a jitte to it, my threat outraces his. He tries to resolve a Tombstalker to outclock me, but I STP it and he scoops.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Engineered Explosives

Kind of a blur, I keep basic plains, fetchland, dual land, double SFM, FoW, and counterspell. I resolve a T2 SFM fetching batterskull. I protect SFM with counterspell, but the batterskull eats an ancient grudge anyway. Next turn SFM #2 fetches jitte. Turn after that TNN resolves, and jitte gets stuck to it. Seals up the game from there.

Match 3: UR Delver (ID)

We played all three games and I lost all three games. Made some play mistakes but I don’t really remember. UR delver just felt really fast, probably going to have to work on this MU some more.



Decklist feels solid, I want a second snapcaster in there eventually, just need to go pick up a copy. Collective brutality of a 3 of seems to be working out. 3 might be excessive, but so far its been a really flexible utility card.

whocansay
07-06-2017, 10:35 AM
Do we really need Deluge? TNN is so important for us that I can't help but feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot running Deluge over an additional Persecution or something. - 1/-1 deals with unflipped Delver, most Elves, and the most annoying creatures in D&T such as Mom, Wisp and old Thalia.

Thoughts?

CptHaddock
07-06-2017, 11:14 AM
Do we really need Deluge? TNN is so important for us that I can't help but feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot running Deluge over an additional Persecution or something. - 1/-1 deals with unflipped Delver, most Elves, and the most annoying creatures in D&T such as Mom, Wisp and old Thalia.

Thoughts?

Are you not playing Zealous Persecution?

First_Revenge
07-06-2017, 12:17 PM
Do we really need Deluge? TNN is so important for us that I can't help but feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot running Deluge over an additional Persecution or something. - 1/-1 deals with unflipped Delver, most Elves, and the most annoying creatures in D&T such as Mom, Wisp and old Thalia.

Thoughts?

Honestly, i haven't thought about this, although i probably should have. Toxic deluge was really included to sweep up eldrazi/other random fatties. But with top gone eldrazi isn’t really that big of a deck anymore, think I’ve only seen one instance of it post banning. That being said, there is a noticeable uptick in cards like gurmag angler/tombstalker. But we do have STPs for those, and TNN can hold off an angler indefinitely. And having done it in the past, it was always pretty painful to pay 5 to nuke a tombstalker anyway.

Persecution also doesn’t hit DRS, SFM, Flipped Delver, or other important X/2’s which could be a problem. This is less worrisome for me since I run main deck brutalities, but may vary for your deck.

Another potential problem is the BW casting cost. Could make me fetch a non-basic to have access to blue if I’m playing against dnt or some other tax style deck.

Maybe most importantly it breaks TNN deadlocks without murdering your own TNN.

Guess in my case transferring out of deluge makes sense since nuking your own TNN sucks and I have plenty of point removal.

whocansay
07-06-2017, 01:29 PM
I am, hence why I mentioned adding an additional one over the Deluge.

First_Revenge
07-11-2017, 12:05 PM
Some days you’re the dog, other days you’re the hydrant. Today I was the hydrant, got hammered 1-3 bringing an end to the relatively hot streak. Same list as before, I am planning some changes eventually.

Match 1: Turbo Depths(2-1 Win)
Game 1:
I punt. He does urborg/depths to deploy a vampire hexmage. I decide to try and STP the hexmage thinking the sacrifice ability was a tap ability. NOPE. He makes a 20/20 at instant speed and I get run over.

Game 2:
-3 Collective Brutality
-2 FoW
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Meddling Mage

I lead with a DRS, and he makes a lage somewhere in there which I STP. T3 or T4 he represents and EOT marit lage and passes it back to me. I cast JTMS and attempt a hail mary brainstorm to find STP. I do find it and cast it killing marit lage. The next turn I find surgical extraction and take out the dark depths. He concedes.

Game 3:
I get a pretty good hand, pierce, FoW, STP, brainstorm, ponder, surgical extraction, land. I end up keeping it. Lead off with a ponder to find some more land, and get thoughtseized. I FoW to protect my hand. He actually casts 4 disruption spells over the next few turns, but I’m able to counter them, and finally use my brainstorm to conceal STP/Extraction on top. When he decides to go off at end step I STP the lage and extract the depths. He concedes.


Match 2: RGB Lands???(1-2 Loss)
Game 1: I had no idea what my opponent was on. Thoughtseize off underground sea revealed Liliana, dark depths, punishing fire, and wasteland giving me some idea what was happening. I get wastelanded, and pretty much mana screw. I stick around to see if there’s anything spicy in the deck but he just keeps casting loam until he hits the depths/stage combo and I die to a 20/20.

Game 2:
-3 Collective Brutality
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Meddling Mage

Not much memory of this one. I think I just counter relevant spells, and STP a marit lage. Stick TNN+Batterskull on the board and they end up closing it out.

Game 3:
Game 3 is pretty miserable as well. Lead off hand is double underground sea which I pretty much have to walk into a double wasteland. Brainstorm off the last underground sea doesn’t reveal any land and I’m screwed for at least two turns. In the interim I surgical extraction his wastelands so I have a prayer of developing a manabase. I do find 2 lands eventually and snapcaster+surgical his stage. But at this point I’m just too far behind, his loam engine is churning through his deck, and his punishing fires keep me from getting any boardstate. TNN never shows up and eventually he gets dark depths to go off the hard way, or what he humorously calls the “hairdryer” method.

Match 3: RUG Delver (0-2 Loss)
Game 1:
I don’t really remember much of this game. I recall my manabase being a problem though, I think I got a dual wastelanded and stifles just generally slowed me down. He beats me down with TNN and I just can’t find a way to deal with it.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Collective Brutality
-1 Counterspell
-1 Leovold(Too hard to cast with all the mana denial)
-1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
-1 FoW
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Flusterstorm

Game 2 I manage to develop a manabase but I simply can’t find threats or dig spells. The entire game I only find one stoneforge mystic which gets stifled. In the meantime he just sticks one mongoose and it goes to town. I can’t find anything to throw in front of it, and I think I end up taking at least 15 damage from it.

Match 4 Belcher(0-2 Loss)
Game 1: I knew what he was on so I keep a hand with FoW a blue card, and some other stuff. T1 or T2 he ends up going off, but he uses empty the warrens instead of belcher to make a bunch of goblins. Not much I can do so I scoop em up.

Game 2:
-3 Collective Brutality
-4 STP
-1 TNN
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Meddling Mage

I punt super hard in this game. I don’t remember much of the early game, but he kinda halfway goes off one turn and I fend it off. Its T4 or so and I ponder revealing land, snapcaster, and counterspell. In my hand I’m sitting on an EE, so I have his goblin out covered, but I don’t have anything for the charbelcher. I end up taking the land, and leaving the snapcaster/counterspell on top. The next turn he topdecks charbelcher with counterspell sitting second from the top on my deck. I wish I could explain why I made such a phenomenally poor decision. In retrospect I clearly should have taken the counterspell, I had the mana to cast it. That way my hand could have both goblins/charbelcher outs covered. But I didn’t and for some reason decided making a land drop was more important than covering the charbelcher out. Probably the worst play I’ve made in a good long while.


Pretty frustrating night all in all. Didn’t enjoy playing 2 depths decks back to back, and the belcher misplay cemented a pretty terrible performance. But I guess my brief streak had to end at some point.

Hedronic
07-14-2017, 07:02 AM
The matchup against combo decks can be very awkward and requires drastic measures in terms of sideboarding.
I'm happy to share a video that you might find interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaEvROIumUk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The list is a Four-Color take on the deck that made top 8 at the MKM series in Frankfurt, Germany, (a fairly a big event here in Europe) and I had the chance to discuss it on the show with that very player who piloted it up to the top 8.

The show is heavily focused on the sideboard configuration and the plans vs 2 specific matchups, but we do cover a bit the main deck as well.

Let me know your thoughts
:wink:

jwl3gg
07-15-2017, 06:42 AM
Some days you’re the dog, other days you’re the hydrant. Today I was the hydrant, got hammered 1-3 bringing an end to the relatively hot streak. Same list as before, I am planning some changes eventually.

Match 1: Turbo Depths(2-1 Win)
Game 1:
I punt. He does urborg/depths to deploy a vampire hexmage. I decide to try and STP the hexmage thinking the sacrifice ability was a tap ability. NOPE. He makes a 20/20 at instant speed and I get run over.

Game 2:
-3 Collective Brutality
-2 FoW
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Meddling Mage

I lead with a DRS, and he makes a lage somewhere in there which I STP. T3 or T4 he represents and EOT marit lage and passes it back to me. I cast JTMS and attempt a hail mary brainstorm to find STP. I do find it and cast it killing marit lage. The next turn I find surgical extraction and take out the dark depths. He concedes.


Why did you attempt to find a STP instead of just bouncing the token?

Nicklas
07-15-2017, 08:37 AM
Because Marit was summoned end of his turn I assume.

First_Revenge
07-15-2017, 03:26 PM
Why did you attempt to find a STP instead of just bouncing the token?

Maybe bit unclear, he was representing a marit lage at End of Turn(EOT). He had both the stage and the depths out so he can make a token at my end step when i can't unsummon with jace

zebhillard
07-15-2017, 08:47 PM
(Redacted, wrong thread.)

Secretly.A.Bee
07-15-2017, 09:19 PM
This belongs in the UWx Stoneblade thread. This is the DeathBlade thread, where the requisite for a deck here is Deathrite Shaman.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

zebhillard
07-15-2017, 09:24 PM
This belongs in the UWx Stoneblade thread. This is the DeathBlade thread, where the requisite for a deck here is Deathrite Shaman.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Crap, you're right. Totally misread the title on accident.

First_Revenge
07-18-2017, 11:53 AM
3-0 tonight with a bye. List changed slightly, but not by much. I wanted to experiment with SOFI maindeck so I definitely overfetched for it. Still managed to get away with it somehow. I actually wound up hanging at the top table for most of the night so you can find the last game of Match 2 and all of Match 3 at the link below:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159986371


The list is the same as last time, except the vendilion clique was removed for a sword of fire and ice.

Match 1: BYE

Spent the match watching the other players, got a lay of the land and enjoyed spectating.

Match 2: Loam(2-0 Win)
Game 1:
Game 1 ends up being a slog from what I remember. Early game DRS is able to keep his graveyard under control so his loams aren’t profitable and his knights of the reliquary never get out of hand. I swords one or two knights of the reliquary/Bob and i eat a few punishing fires in return. I don’t remember much of the early sequence of the game, but eventually a TNN gets suited up with a SOFI and gets it done. It should be noted that SOFI was not the right call in this situation, batterskull would have been more appropriate.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Collective Brutality(Most of his spells have recursion and his knights outgrow the removal)
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Invasive Surgery

It’s over really quickly. I keep an opener with leovold, drs, lands, stoneforge, and STP. He plays a grove and passes, I play a drs, and he plays another grove. At this point I’m very happy, to drop a leovold as it makes his punishing fires look really bad. I think he misses a land drop and I drop the SFM and he scoops them up. It turns out most of his hand needed black mana to work, and with only two grove of the burnwillows in hand he just couldn’t make it happen.

Match 3: Leovold Control (2-1 Win)
A carbon copy of randy buehler’s list from this event:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16204&f=LE

Game 1:
I had the benefit of watching randy play it over the weekend and I’d seen my opponent pilot it as well. Game 1 we both slog into the late game. It’s a typical midrange grindfest. I end up winning because I draw all 3 of my TNNs in fairly short order. He deals with 2 of them, but the third sneaks in there for the kill.

Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Collective Brutality(Most of his spells have recursion and his knights outgrow the removal)
-1 FoW
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Meddling Mage

We go into the late game and his ton of edict effects end up killing my TNNs. Kolaghan's Command adds to the beating in the mid-late game. I think there’s a turn where he kills my jitte and my drs with this card and I feel the wind go out of my sails. This card is way better than I thought it would be. If you haven’t played against this card, I’m strongly advising that you give it a lot of respect.

I also learned the hard way that Surgical Extraction is not good in this matchup so I had to reconsider my sideboard Game 3.

Game 3:
-2 Surgical Extraction
+1 FoW
+1 Spell Pierce
My opener is wasteland, DRS, Leovold, SFM, STP, and fetchlands. I know his 4C manabase is super wobbly so wasteland is always a good start. Lead off with DRS, and pass. His opener is the same as mine. I draw a second wasteland. At this point I’m stuck with two options. I can fully punish his mana by wastelanding/STP his DRS. Or I can STP his DRS and deploy a SFM for some early pressure. I opt to deploy the SFM and plow the DRS. In retrospect, punishing his mana would have been the better play. I pass it back and I get hymned. This would not have happened had I gone wasteland/STP. I get lucky on the hymn and it takes both wastelands leaving me with batterskull and leovold in hand. He passes the turn back and I pass it back representing an EOT batterskull. He drops a sylan library and passes it back, batterskull drops. On my turn I deploy the leovold with FOW backup and resolve it. It should be noted that leovold completely shuts off the library as library requires you to draw the cards to even look at/rearrange them. At this point my board state is more or less unbeatable and I think he has 1-2 cards in hand. Leovold draws me a bunch of cards as he tries to deal with it. He ends up formally losing the game by casting brainstorm into leovold.


Got through it with a good bit of luck this week. It helped that there was a really good player there explaining my misplays in excruciating detail. A good reminder that even though I won there was a good bit of luck involved. Next week I’m going to try and include some lingering souls in the list to add more threats and synergize with collective brutality.

Molz7
07-24-2017, 11:13 AM
Game 2:
-3 Thoughtseize


You seem to board out thought seize a lot. Why? You've boarded it out versus stone forge Mystic decks, while it's one of your best cards. They go sfm, you take their equipment and are crippled.

Information is extremely powerful with our deck as well.

Just curious your justification.

First_Revenge
07-24-2017, 03:41 PM
You seem to board out thought seize a lot. Why? You've boarded it out versus stone forge Mystic decks, while it's one of your best cards. They go sfm, you take their equipment and are crippled.

Information is extremely powerful with our deck as well.

Just curious your justification.

Hey, thanks for the question, feel free to ask away I post these in hopes someone will learn or better yet find something I’m doing wrong. Regarding thoughtseize vs SFM decks, you’re right about thoughtseize being a key card to keep in. I’ll keep it in in the future, the only exception I’ll make is against DnT. I’ll probably still end up yanking it since they can vial in SFM at end step.

Other than that, thoughtseize is really there for combo matchups. Whether by fluke or luck I haven’t faced a lot of combo decks so it’s typically the first thing to go. Speaking to last week, it didn’t seem that great against loam, but I could be wrong here. Maybe I should have boarded out forces instead. Against 4C leovold, I ditched thoughtseize for two reasons. First, it triggers opposing leovolds, and second I was really scared of late game kolaghan’s command. More counters seemed like a better option. Don’t know if that was correct or not though.

whocansay
07-25-2017, 06:19 PM
For an unknown metagame, can I get away with a Mindbreak Trap or Ethersworn Canonist in the SB, or do I have to shell out stupid money for a Flusterstorm?

First_Revenge
07-26-2017, 10:52 AM
For an unknown metagame, can I get away with a Mindbreak Trap or Ethersworn Canonist in the SB, or do I have to shell out stupid money for a Flusterstorm?

Mindbreak Trap-Really only for storm, maybe topless miracles since they love to cantrip. Remember, it requires the opponent to cast 3 or more spells. Its a much more narrow card than flusterstorm and unless your meta is overrun with storm you are probably looking at a dead SB card.

Ethersworn Canonist-Really good against show and tell decks since they typically don't have critter removal. My longstanding problem with this card is that its a creature which can die, and that it requires you to telegraph your protection. This card lets your opponent play around it and kill it when its convenient.

Flusterstorm-Wins counter wars and there isn't a whole lot your opponent can do barring a stifle or a flusterstorm of their own. Has good synergy with snapcaster mages if you run them. This card really suffers in the late game against cheap cards like reanimate because your opponent will have access to a lot of mana and because they won't really have a lot of cards to cast.

Regarding the price tag, while i think flusterstorm is the best choice, i also think its pretty prime for a reprint. Canonist isn't by any means a bad card and would probably serve you just fine until wizards decides to knock flusterstorm's price down a few pegs.


No idea if this is good or not, but against storm/sneak and show(assuming they don't get emrakul)/lands i've been meaning to try the card selfless squire. Might be a fun SB option to try.

Neo900
08-04-2017, 06:13 AM
Last weekend I was in prague and played one of the biggest tournaments we have in europe.
I managed to reach the top 8 undefeated but lost in the quartefinale against lands.
Here is my list:

//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland

//Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Fatal Push
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

//Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Notion Thief
1 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Lingering Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Thoughtseize


I don't have detailed information about my match ups but I played against the following:
2-1 Miracles
2-1 Goblins
2-1 Jund
2-1 BUG Delver
2-0 Miracles
2-0 Death and Taxes
2-1 Elves
i. D. Lands
i. D. Grixis Delver


Changes I want to make are:
Cutting Marsh Flats for Flooded Strand. Flooded Strand searches everything except the swamp.
Cutting Notion Thief and moving Sword of Fire and Ice to the sideboard for 2 Thouhtseize.
SB: Cutting 2 Disenchant for Toxic Deluge and Sword of Fire and Ice.

The change to Flooded Strand is quite obvious. Flooded Strand targets better.
Notion Thief was not that good and the 3rd equipment was often unnecessary. Postboard it's good to have extra equipment because our opponent will have hate against it.
Thoughtseize is just strong. It's often needed to get a handle something before it makes trouble. And as always: information is so important for further game plans.
I missed some bigger board wipe like Deluge. Disenchant was okay but to specific to be good.

The evening before I cut 2 Collective Brutality for the Counterspell and Fatal Push. Counterspell won games and Push is like the 5th Swords to Plowshares.

geeklazer
08-05-2017, 07:31 PM
I've been having a bit of trouble with Merfolk and Omnishow. Tested those match ups a bunch yesterday with friends, and they seem very unfavorable. What are some of the general strategies that you would try to employ in those matchups?

I've been testing a list almost identical to Neo, except I did have the extra flooded strand and went down on the marsh flats, and went down on a notion thief for an additional snapcaster mage, and in the sideboard took out the pithing needle for a duress.

whocansay
08-06-2017, 01:23 PM
Congratulations on the finish, neo. I've been following your list closely and had some success with it myself.

I noticed you cut Bayou entirely - do you miss Leovold / Decay sometimes?

Neo900
08-06-2017, 04:15 PM
No. Leovold is a great card but you can only play it as one off. And it's not worth it to have a mana base like this. With Fatal Push and no counterbalance there is no need for Decay. I tried to replace Leovold with Notion Thief but it didn't pay out. The 2 Thoughtseize again are stronger and more flexible.

Omnitell is a hard match up. Stoneforge and Equipment is too slow. Vendilion Clique is very good and Ethersworn Canonist is great too. Besides that you should have Thoughtseize, Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction and maybe some other cards.

Merfolk is okay. You have to handle the Vial. Sword of Fire and Ice is quite good against them. Lords have a cmc of 2 so engineered explosives hits them hard. Zealous Persecution can kill TNN without a lord and otherwise Toxic Deluge should clear the board.

whocansay
08-06-2017, 06:22 PM
Gotcha, good point. Are you satisfied with the 3 Baleful Strix? I always saw it as an anti-Eldrazi card but that deck seems to be gone lately. It just feels so dead against combo / control.

Neo900
08-07-2017, 06:55 AM
Strix is quite decent against Delver. Other Midrange decks have problems against Strix too. Especially BUG decks which want to grind are slowed down by it. With the extra evasion you are able to get some counter on Jitte or with Batterskull you get a huge monster.
Besides the Deathtouch you draw a card. You come deeper into your deck and you can pitch it into Force of Will.
Of course it's not great against Combo. But that makes sideboarding way easier.
Against control it depends on the other deck. Against Stoneblade you can block the germ. Against Miracles it blocks Mentor. Far from perfect but okay.

Whitefaces
08-07-2017, 07:43 AM
Last weekend I was in prague and played one of the biggest tournaments we have in europe.
I managed to reach the top 8 undefeated but lost in the quartefinale against lands.

Congrats on your strong finish. It's always nice to see people that have been putting a lot of work into a deck do well with it! I've never been a big fan of traditional Esper Blade lists, but yours are really interesting, keep it up!

whocansay
08-07-2017, 01:48 PM
Last question Neo, what made you ditch Bitterblossom? Its not a great topdeck but man I sure love stopping Anglers with it.

HardBrain
08-07-2017, 08:42 PM
After Games i Have made THIS list putting just best cards:
4 deathrite Shaman
4 stoneforge mystic
3 true-name nemesis
2 Monastery Mentor
1 tombstalker
---14/61
2 Jace the mind Sculptor
---16/61
1 Batterskull
1 umezawas jitte
1 Sword od fire and ice
---19/61
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fatal Push
2 thoughtseize
1 counterspell
1 spell pierce
41/61
4 Polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 misty rainforest
2 underground sea
2 tundra
1 scrubland
1 tropical Island
2 Island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 karakas
61/61

Side:
2 containment Priest
2 meddling mage
2 ethersworn cannonist
2 surgical extraction
2 zealous persecution
1 toxic delunge
1 engineered explosives
1 flusterstorm
1 vendilion clique
1 pithing Needle

The idea is flood opponent in jest cards. Most of card is single win. I like to play MMentor and create a lot of little guys which can be hard to stop. Another strong option is Jace. When game is going to mid/late JTMS can win by gibony huge advantage or kill opp library. Also it can be as a fuel for FoW in some scenario. I think in THIS meta when there are a lot of Blue Decks we need use SoFaI. It helps kill delver and give Adv. Mana base cant run wasteland in my opinion. I prefer to Have basic over wastelands. Its better to Have stron mana base. In Sb i focused on flexible options like meddling mage which i love. Strong sweep board likedelunge, explosive, persecution. The only one thing that i Have still on my brainDesk is Sword of Feast and Famine against fair green deck but we dont Have many of them. Last card that i Have played every day is Abrupt decay. I want to put 2 copies in main but donno how xD Ok its Obv that we dont Have countertop in meta but: each enchantment from lands, mirror, aether vial, and problem like: opposite Needle, choke.

whocansay
08-08-2017, 03:24 AM
You can hit all that stuff with Disenchant without having to add green to your mana base. Can't comment on Mentor, let us know how it goes.

Cyanhur
08-08-2017, 05:14 AM
Hi, i am new player with EsperBlade. I really like this deck, maybe i think i find my way.

I am running this list :

Planes

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures (10)

2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (26)

4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Collective Brutality
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands (22)

1 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Marsh Flats
1 Creeping Tar Pit


Sideboard

3 Meddling Mage
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Engineered Explosives

I did 4-0 in local tornament 2 times. I would like to prepare the Legacy GP in Europe (next year) and i find this list on YouTube. I am not sure if this list is good for a Big tornament.

Can you tell me what do you think about this list? I like Souls, Clique but this cards is not in the deck list.

I love your list Neo, i think i will test it.

Thanks for yours opinions.

Neo900
08-08-2017, 05:40 AM
Last question Neo, what made you ditch Bitterblossom? Its not a great topdeck but man I sure love stopping Anglers with it.

Bitterblossom is a nice card but I don't think it's good enough right now. It hurts yourself and Lingering Souls kills faster. I need it right now only against controlish match ups; miracles, jund, aggro loam and stoneblade are my most common choices where I bring Lingering Souls up. Lingering Souls is also not hit by removal spells like Decay, Disenchant etc.

@Cyanhur
Your list seems very control heavy. Espacially here in Europe the trend is more towards Grixis Delver. In Prague there was about 15% Grixis Delver. Collective Brutality is a strange card. The Problem is it doesn't do anything as good as other cards. 2 mana discard and 2 mana removal is quite slow and the life drain is often unnecessary. Escalate makes the card interesting but gives you card disadvantage way more often because it fails against cheap counters like Spell Snare/Pierce. I would cut 2 Jace and 2 Snapcaster Mages for 4 Deathrite Shaman since this is the Deathblade thread anyway. Shaman does too much for this deck; mana, clock, lifegain and grave hate.

@HardBrain
Mentor is a card which gives me headache. In Miracles it seems so powerful that I want to play it too but I don't have the slot or so many cantrips. I'm excited how this card will work out for you and for the deck.

HardBrain
08-08-2017, 05:54 AM
@HardBrain
Mentor is a card which gives me headache. In Miracles it seems so powerful that I want to play it too but I don't have the slot or so many cantrips. I'm excited how this card will work out for you and for the deck.

i will play today against Lands so I will be first real good testing against. I think build deck on cards which can ruin opponents is the point. Mentor without instant kill can win a game. wait till we can resp somehow and just produce 1-2 guy. they will grow each turn and will bring swords on their hands. it makes some dead card against some mups live. like fatal push against lands. we can push one 1/1 guy to pump other army.

Neo900
08-08-2017, 06:53 AM
I have to reply here @Cyanhur because your Inbox seems full and I'm not able to send you a message:


I prefer to continue in private message, because i have many questions about the deck.

You do not like jace in the deck?

About brutality, yes you right now i understand when i make play test with friends or my brother (playing grixis) sometimes i lost to many card with bruta and i took pierce.....

Maybe i have to cut 4 bruta in my list? (is it not fine with Souls synergie?)

Do you think i have to keep 2 verdict? What is the best list for you beetween your list or control list?

Right know my list is as controlish as I would go with 5 point removal and 7 counters. The problem with Jace is that there is too much Delver in the metagame and a 4 mana planeswalker is too slow. Same could be true for Supreme Verdict.
I played 3 Snapcaster for a certain time and it was awful. Snapcaster Mage stucks in your hand for too long too often.
Brutality as a nice synergy with Lingering Souls thats true. But if you want to have synergies with Lingering Souls I would consider Liliana of the Veil. With Verdict you have a good protection for Liliana and she is a long time problem for the opponent while you can apply pressure on more resources. With Liliana's discard and Lingering Souls you should be able to win the game.
Esperblade is more likely to be a control deck. Deathblade is more aggressive and so I play it as well.

Cyanhur
08-08-2017, 08:02 AM
I have to reply here @Cyanhur because your Inbox seems full and I'm not able to send you a message:



Right know my list is as controlish as I would go with 5 point removal and 7 counters. The problem with Jace is that there is too much Delver in the metagame and a 4 mana planeswalker is too slow. Same could be true for Supreme Verdict.
I played 3 Snapcaster for a certain time and it was awful. Snapcaster Mage stucks in your hand for too long too often.
Brutality as a nice synergy with Lingering Souls thats true. But if you want to have synergies with Lingering Souls I would consider Liliana of the Veil. With Verdict you have a good protection for Liliana and she is a long time problem for the opponent while you can apply pressure on more resources. With Liliana's discard and Lingering Souls you should be able to win the game.
Esperblade is more likely to be a control deck. Deathblade is more aggressive and so I play it as well.

Oh yes my mistake, haven't saw my Inbox.

Thanks you for your anwser now i understand your choice.

I will change my list and i will send you again.

I am starting to play BWU Blade deck since 2 week. I do not know if i prefer esper or death, that's a difficult choice. I think they are a strong deck for any tornament.

First_Revenge
08-08-2017, 11:44 AM
@Neo900
Congratulations on your excellent finish! Nice to see deathblade in the big lights !


Last question Neo, what made you ditch Bitterblossom? Its not a great topdeck but man I sure love stopping Anglers with it.

The other thing I found in my testing was that bitterblossom and TNN end up competing with each other for the turn 2 play. TNN is probably the better turn 2 play in that it presents a threat that goes live the next turn. Bitterblossom doesn’t present an active threat until turn 4, since the token produced on turn 3 will be summoning sick. Bitterblossom is also a miserable late game draw.

I ended up replacing blossom with lingering souls for these reasons. Additionally, I run collective brutality in the list so there’s a synergy there.

@hardbrain
List looks pretty sweet. I came to almost the same conclusion as you with sword of fire and ice. I ended up putting it in the SB though, in general I’ve found three equipments can make opening draws clunky occasionally.

Echoing previous comments, abrupt decay just stretches our mana too thin and forces you to play into wastelands. Disenchants are probably the better option even though it is counterable.

@cyanhur
Disregarding the lack of deathrite shaman, I think you could cut 1-2 snapcaster mages, probably both supreme verdicts, and creeping tarpit. I’ve never really like supreme verdit, its very color intensive which makes you play into wastelands, and it costs 4 mana. If you go up against tax effects like thalia it’ll cost 5. I think I’ve pitched this card to FoW more than I’ve actually casted it. Just generally I don’t like sweepers like this in creature decks.

Creeping tarpit has felt really bad every time i've played it. Coming into play tapped really stalls out some hands, while its an unblockable body, it takes 4 mana to do it. TNN just seems like a better option.

@neo900/@cyanhur
Regarding collective brutality, I’ll have to disagree. To me it’s the perfect bridge between fatal push/thoughtseize. For example, when I used to run 4 STP/2 Fatal Push, I would be miserable against combo. Literally 10% of my deck does nothing, and I’d end a lot of game 1’s staring at useless cards. Brutality is overcosted, but at least it’s almost always a live card in any given matchup.

Also, you really shouldn’t be escalating brutality in situations where you can get it spell pierced/dazed. 85% of the time it’s an overcosted duress or fatal push. Against blue decks, the escalate ability essentially doesn’t exist, or you’ll walk into 2 for 1’s. I don’t know what the board state was that made you make this play, but I generally don’t do it unless it’s out of desperation. The only exception to this is you can guarantee they’ll FoW it, in which case you 2 for 2 each other. Or, the card you pitch is something like lingering souls from which you derive value.

About the only times I escalate are against burn(escalating twice is legitimately excellent) and sometimes elves. I know that when I escalate in these scenarios it I am guaranteed to trade at parity.

Neo900
08-09-2017, 12:07 PM
This might be different experience about Collective Brutality.
I'm quite happy how my deck works right now that I was able to win our local little tournament (6 players, 3 rounds).
Thoughtseize feels good again in the Mainboard.

whocansay
08-14-2017, 06:25 PM
Can we beat Miracles or do I just suck?

phg22
08-15-2017, 12:54 AM
What the hell is this answer?

Why would you be playing against miracles is the real question

If you are, you cant beat a watered down miracles...thats on you

New Miracle is actually much better vs slower fair decks like Deathblade since it has so many Predicts and Counterspells. Sword of Fire and Ice along with some sort of CA engine in the board (Painful Truths or Sylvan Library for me) are your best options. Try to counter Terminus or their card draw.

Pdingo
08-15-2017, 04:22 AM
The match up against miracle is even..i beat it more than it's beat me but i really know witch angle i have to counter because i love to play mircale by myself..Thoughtseize is very strong here..also leovold and daze. Also keep it in the removal and jitte for mentors..also just to lock them down with shaman is nice..i try not to play to much creature spells.

diablo4488
08-15-2017, 09:14 AM
Can we beat Miracles or do I just suck?

SoFaI
TNN
Painful
Jace
TS

I think yes. But it's a 50/50 MU.

whocansay
08-15-2017, 09:20 AM
The match up against miracle is even..i beat it more than it's beat me but i really know witch angle i have to counter because i love to play mircale by myself..Thoughtseize is very strong here..also leovold and daze. Also keep it in the removal and jitte for mentors..also just to lock them down with shaman is nice..i try not to play to much creature spells.


Gotcha, that seems wise. I was wondering whether I should bring in Zealous Persecution for the tokens but that seems pointless if he can just Brainstorm in response.

How do you guys sideboard against Reanimator? The BUG version in particular?

diablo4488
08-15-2017, 10:18 AM
Gotcha, that seems wise. I was wondering whether I should bring in Zealous Persecution for the tokens but that seems pointless if he can just Brainstorm in response.

How do you guys sideboard against Reanimator? The BUG version in particular?

It depends on your build.
I exchange the SFM package and the TNN (8 slots in my board)

+ 3 MM
+ 2 Surgical
+ 1 Edict
+ 2 Containment

First_Revenge
08-18-2017, 02:14 AM
Gotcha, that seems wise. I was wondering whether I should bring in Zealous Persecution for the tokens but that seems pointless if he can just Brainstorm in response.

How do you guys sideboard against Reanimator? The BUG version in particular?

FWIW, i don't like removing the stoneforge package since you do need to put a clock on them eventually. G2 and G3 against this deck often becomes a staring match for a bit as both sides build up a ton of counters. Dropping a mystic fetching batterskull on T4 or so with mana open presents a threat they need to either hard counter(probably FoW) or hit with AD. You're fine with either honestly, you get counters of AD out of their hand. Batterskull is also the perfect target since you can just EOT it whenever its convenient.

I do like leaving 1-2 STPs in the deck. While its clearly weak against griselbrand, i've been seeing cards like grave titan pop up as well which are weak to STP. Its also worth nothing that sometimes STP'ing a griselbrand is occassionally good enough. They may not have enough life to draw 7, or they may just blank.

-3 TNN
-2 Lingering Souls
-2 STP
-1 Jitte
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Sofi
+1 Pithing Needle

whocansay
08-21-2017, 06:48 AM
Had a question about the Storm matchup - say they're about to go off and you have one hard counter on hand, no Past in Flames in the yard yet, do you counter the very first Dark Ritual / LED or do you wait for them to chain several Rituals together and risk getting blown out by either Past / Tutor?

JackaBo
08-21-2017, 07:19 AM
Had a question about the Storm matchup - say they're about to go off and you have one hard counter on hand, no Past in Flames in the yard yet, do you counter the very first Dark Ritual / LED or do you wait for them to chain several Rituals together and risk getting blown out by either Past / Tutor?

If you counter the first ritual they just have to draw into another and go at it again. So that's not advisable unless you got lethal on the board.

It's risk versus reward but you usually wanna fow the tutor to make them commit cards in vein. But, if the last card isnt tutor - but tendrils - then you're fucked.

Always keep your drs up and keep the yard clean of tutors and discard. It makes the pif line much harder.

Combining counters, discard and permanent-based hate is the hardest for them to beat.

Pdingo
08-22-2017, 06:02 AM
It really depends in witch state the boardstate is..
Goes the storm player off on his first turn with ritual?
Or is it in the mid or lategame and he had multiple lands in play?

-If he goes off first turn with a ritual you should always counter..it takes them out of tempo..specially when you have a discard in hand after the countered ritual..
Otherwhise if he had a discard after the ritual you lose anyway
Its really a gamble if he have a discard or not..otherwhise you can just let them go off and maybe your lucky and you can counter the tutor. Sometimes in a bigger tournament gamble works very well because i would probably go off with a first turn as a storm player if i not know what my oppenent plays;)
I mean he can just lose to fow without a discard..

But like i said as a deathblade player and with my list i postet 1 or 2 page's ago i would counter the first ritual just to slow them down..then i can cantrip into a daze or discard or t1 shaman and then he have to cantrip for the ritual and if i have
an active shaman i take him his pif route

2. If he have multiple lands already in play i would never or rarely counter a ritual i mean he can play his discard anyway.
But in the lategame it's important to ask what did he played already and what do i have..

First_Revenge
08-22-2017, 03:59 PM
Mixed things up a bit, biggest change is the addition of lingering souls, a card that on paper I was unimpressed with, but in practice its way better than I thought.
Lands-21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Creatures-12

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


Spells: 24

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares


Artifacts: 2

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte


Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push


Pretty good week, went 2-1 with a bit of luck.

Match 1: Dredge(2-1 Win)
Game 1: I FoW his opening careful study, then stick a DRS in play with a tropical island to eat his dredgers. I have another FoW with leovold to pitch. Game durdles for a few turns and I run out of sorceries to eat with DRS. Playing leovold is awkward since I don’t have another blue card to pitch to FoW, so I’d be soft to something like lion’s eye diamond. I decide that DRS isn’t a fast enough clock and slam the leovold. He scoops it up.

Game 2:
Sideboard:
-3 True Name Nemesis
-2 Lingering Souls
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Flusterstorm

Game 2: I’m able to stop his initial discard spells, but I didn’t get a DRS. He manages to get a putrid imp in play. I don’t have removal in hand. He topdecks cabal therapy and sacrifices the imp turning his dredge engine on. I die not long after.

Game 3: I lead with thoughtseize and see a whole ton of draw/discard spells including wildfire, but no dredgers. I have some countermagic, but he definitely has more draw/discard than I can deal with. I bluff more countermagic than I actually have. Critical turn comes on T4 where I play a jace and thankfully brainstorm into some more countermagic. T5 I play double DRS and a collective brutality taking the wildfire. End up winning after that turn.

Match 2: UWR Stoneblade(1-2 Loss)
Game 1: My opening 7 had no lands, and my next 6 had 4 lands, STP, and jitte which I kept. Scry’d a land to the bottom and proceeded to draw 3 more lands. He stuck TNN and beat me death while I flooded out. Not much I could do here.
Game 2:
Sideboard:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Collective Brutality
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Disenchant
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Much better hand this time, including the two cards I wanted to test, collective brutality and lingering souls. T2 he plays his standard SFM. I play collective brutality to kill the SFM and duress him, lingering souls gets pitched. I end up taking countermagic to resolve a TNN next turn. The rest of the game is really grindy. I draw a second lingering souls and overwhelm his point removal by spamming tokens. Token gets suited up and eventually wins the game.

Game 3: Same opening play, I kill his SFM with brutality pithing lingering souls which ends up being a mistake. He’d brought in token hate like engineered explosives/izzet staticaster to deal with them. I could get around those cards, but I would have preferred to have lingering souls resolve twice rather than just flashing it back. Lesson learned the hard way.

Critical turn is T7 or T8, I have a TNN beating him down to 5 and he has a jace in play. I choose to resolve a second TNN to try and go for lethal next turn. I know he plays 1-2 supreme verdicts, but I decide the faster clock is worth walking into a potential 2-1. He brainstorm/ponders the next turn and finds it, of course. I get nuked, and he plays EE on 0 with lingering souls in my yard. This where pitching lingering souls bit me. Had I been able to resolve it twice, I could probably have won. Such is life, eventually he finds TNN, glues batterskull to it and wins the game.


Match 3: Demonic Cats?? (2-1 Win)
A really weird deck. It’s a grixis deck that revolves around Demonic Pact. He wants to go through the three useful modes, then either give it to me via Harmless Offering(the namesake of the deck), or return it to his hand via cards like Echoing Truth or Wipe Away. The rest of the deck is bolts, fatal pushes, snapcaster mages, DRS, burning wish, and baleful strix as far as I’m aware.

Game 1: I end up in a damage race with him. The game goes late and he’s able to pull away by resolving two Demonic Pacts. He gets cards and drain/gains for 4 life from both pacts. I’m unable to recover and lose.

Game 2:
-2 Lingering Souls
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Disenchant
Not much to say here. He mulligans to 5, thoughseize and collective brutality take his relevant cards. It ends up being a bit closer than I’d like as he tries to race me with DRS and Snapcaster Mage, but TNN and SFM are just better creatures and they close out the game shortly thereafter.

Game 3:
We both kinda durdle for a while, I’m sitting on some counterspells/hand disruption and a surgical extraction. The goal being to either make him discard or counter a demonic pact, then surgically extract it. Early game he deploys some minor threats which I mostly ignore to keep countermagic up. Eventually he attempts to cast a demonic pact which I counter, then extract, turning his deck into a pile of value idiots. Next turn I resolve TNN, the following turn a leovold hits the board. He attempts to bolt the leovold, but the leovold trigger draws FoW, I cast it to protect leovold. Next turn he inadvertently throws a ponder into leovold, upon realizing his mistake he scoops.


In conclusion, I’m pretty happy with this build. I definitely underestimated the power of lingering souls. It’s awkward to counter, awkward to deal with the counters, and has some synergy with brutality. It’s probably fine to pitch souls to brutality G1 when they don’t have sweepers, otherwise I’m thinking in G2 and G3 I should probably just be casting it twice. Leovold continues to impress, his ability to shut down cantrips in the late game starves a lot of decks out. People also continue to accidently throw cantrips at him.

namewithoutname
08-25-2017, 04:26 PM
First, thanks @ First_Revenge for encouraging me to join the discussion on the Source (I'm the reddit guy) and start becoming a better Player instead of being a bye :laugh:

So hello fellow Legacy Enthusiasts,

long time lurker, first time poster. I’ve been playing the format for quite some time in the past, but just recently got back into it after a long break. I’ve been a combo-only guy, but finally decided I wanted to play a fair blue deck this time instead of “Belcher, u got Force“?
Deathblade was an easy choice, I just love the cards in this Deck. So, here’s my list (sorry, couldn't find a way to link the cards):

Lands - 21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains or Karakas
2 Wasteland

Creatures - 17

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Artifacts - 2

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Spells - 20

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder


Sideboard - 15

2 Lingering Souls
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle

I love the Strixes, they just feel like so much value. Only the small Stoneforge package, as three Equipments feel a bit clunky in the current fast Meta. Same for Jace, he just seems too slow. I don’t want to ruin my Manabase to support more Leovolds, but I like him as a 1-off. He’s just such a pain for so many Decks that I don’t want to leave the house completely without him. Not sure about Zombie-Fish, but he can steal a game if he comes down early and is left unanswered.

Playing a completely new archetype results in me having a LOT to learn. One of my main problems is sideboarding. I have some ideas what I want to board in against certain matchups (more counter/Canonist/Surgical against storm, Souls against Delver/grindy Decks, Disenchant against Vial etc.), but I never know what to take out. As an example, I guess the Stoneforge package is quite bad against Storm, but on the other hand I want a clock against them and feel light on threads without it.

Finally my question: Do you have some kind of guide/advice on what to board out (and eventually in) against certain Decks/archetypes? I know Deathblade is a very individual Deck and everyone tunes their Board differently, but I guess there is some kind of basic rules a complete newbe could follow to get some experience piloting the Deck?

Sideboard is still a bit of a work in progress, feel free to comment. I’d love those Surgerys to be Flusterstorms, but my savings account doesn’t want me to do that at the moment. At least they’re a hardcounter. Do you want RiP (or mybe Cage) in your 75 to stop Delve/Dredge/Snapcaster shenanigans? Would hurt my own Snapcasters and the Fish, but Snap KolaghansC really hurts.

Also feel free to fire any advice not covered in the Primer you'd like to give to a new Deathblade-Fan who has a lot to lean about this fine Deck.

So long, thanks in advance and best wishes from Germany

First_Revenge
08-28-2017, 10:57 AM
Hey, welcome to the thread! Take everything I say with a grain of salt, hopefully neo900 jumps in here since he has actual meaningful results with the deck.

Most of your list looks fine, I’ve only got 2 real problems with it. I don’t like the 3 baleful strix. I think the card made of lot of sense while the eldrazi were running amok, but since then it’s always struck me as a mediocre card. It does stonewall some creatures, but in practice I just find my strix gets bolted and they continue to attack anyway. In the combo matchup I’m not sure if the card is useful or not, drawing the card is nice, but you’re still paying 2 mana for a 1/1 that doesn’t impose much of a clock at all.

The second problem is I think you’re light on thoughtseize. I’d recommend 3-4. A T1 thoughtseize is very powerful since you take their best card and you can sculpt a game plan around the information you get.

Other than that I don’t have a problem with your maindeck.

Sideboarding with this deck is fairly difficult, but I’ll try to give some general rules. Against grindy matchups I usually side out my countermagic/thoughtseizes to insert sweepers or other useful cards. The games tend to go late to spell pierce probably isn’t too helpful, and 2-1’ing yourself with FoW isn’t ideal. If I still need more space I start taking out thoughtseizes next, but it’s worth noting that you should leave them in vs other stoneblade decks since taking their fetched equipment is important.

Against combo decks I generally end up cutting point removal/TNNs. TNNs get cut because most combo decks don’t have much creature interaction anyway. Second committing 3 mana to a 5-6 turn clock is risky. I much prefer stoneforge mystic/batterskull in this situation as I can play her for 2 mana on T4 or something, and have at least 2 mana open. This way I’m leaving mana open, and I can flash in batterskull at my discretion as a much faster clock. Against combo your deck will begin to feel threat light so it’s important to wait for the right moment.

RIP/Cage are probably overkill to deal with dredge/delve/snapcaster problems considering how much impact they have on your deathrite. Dredge is pretty rare, and maindeck DRS/Tropical island can often win G1 outright. After that your existing GY hate/counter suite in the SB should be enough. By delve I’m assuming you mean tombstalker/angler. I don’t get too stressed out by those cards since you’re already running 4 STP, the best answer to those cards. DRS can also help keep their yard under control. Snapcaster is also soft to your DRS, but I can be tricky to play around.

Regarding kholghan’s command, and I’m guessing a larger question about dealing with Czech pile as a whole. You really want to be attacking the manabase. Yes, snapcaster/kholghan’s command is brutal, but by the time they’re doing that you’ve probably already lost. Czech pile’s biggest weakness is its clunky manabase. If you’re really having problems against this deck consider adding a 3rd wasteland, otherwise, always remember to kill DRS on sight since it ramps them AND fixes their mana.


Probably a bit of a soapbox here and some unsolicited advice, but I think collective brutality is one of the best things to happen to this deck in a while. Going forward as you tune your deck I think you’ll stumble across the problem of G1’s. What I mean by that is, how do you build your maindeck to be good vs the aggro and combo matchups? The cards you need to deal with both matchups are completely different. STP is great in the aggro matchup, but terrible in the combo matchup. FoW is great in the combo matchup but mediocre to terrible in the aggro matchup. What that means is in G1 you end up having a lot dead draws.

Collective brutality is good maindeck because you get to have both a killspell and a discard spell in one card, so it’s live in both matchups. Maindeck you’ll have 6-7 killspells and 5-6 discard spells at the same time. Sideboard it gets even better, the # of killspells/combo hate will skyrocket as you bring in relevant cards.

Anyway that’s my $.02, let me know if you have questions.

Neo900
08-31-2017, 05:23 AM
Somebody called me ? ^^

The list is quite similiar to mine.
What First_Revenge said is quite right. Strix is and was always the first cards I cut or add again. At the moment I want Strix because Gurmag Angler,Tasigur and Tombstalker are coming. With the printing of Fatal Push the amount of Tarmogoyf dropped drastically. That's the reason why I cut the Fatal Push again for Murderous Cut. With Snapcaster, Tombstalker and Cut you could get trouble with casting everything. If I get big problems I will exchange Ponder for Thought Scour.
Another problem I had the last times are artifacts and planeswalker. Disenchant gets rid of enchantments and artifacts but often it's just clunky. So I kicked out a Clique in my board for Council's Judgment which is a catch all removal which is flexible with it targets but the mana costs are quite tough.
I'm not a fan of Leovold in Deathblade anymore espacially with only one green source. But you have to decide how risky and greedy you want to play.


2 Lingering Souls - LS is a super good card against control match ups.
2 Disenchant - Just I mentioned before you want some artifact removal. But I have often situation where I have no targets and a dead card.
2 Surgical Extraction - Surgical has always a target and always slots in the sideboard.
2 Invasive Surgery - Surgery is a nice card but the restriction of sorcery targets makes it weaker. Soon or later you want Flusterstorm.
2 Ethersworn Canonist - Canonist is good in a combo heavy meta which we don't have -in my opinion-. One should be enough.
1 Containment Priest - One priest should be enough. It's good against many deck.
1 Toxic Deluge - Toxic Deluge kills everytime the own Nemesis but you need it at least once.
1 Zealous Persecution - This is one of my favorite cards. It allows you to sweep the board or do great combat tricks. You want it against so many decks that I would consider to play 2.
1 Painful Truths - Truths is nice but I think it just steals a slot here. You could cut a Ponder for Truths or Night's Whisper but otherwise it doen't feel necessary.
1 Pithing Needle - I guess this choice is clear, isn't it ?

I would recommend more Thoughtseize or discard in your sideboard since you are just play 2 main (like I do). Thoughtseize is great but I don't want it always so the 2-2 split happened. Vendilion Clique is also a great attack on the opponents hand. With Karakas you are able to lock them down. Vendilion Clique won so many games on their own.

namewithoutname
08-31-2017, 12:09 PM
Thanks guys, that really helped a lot!

namewithoutname
09-03-2017, 06:46 PM
Hey guys,

sorry for double posting, but I thought about your ideas and tried to come up with some boarding plans. Also made some small changes to my Maindeck:

-2 Wasteland
-1 Leovold
-1 Counterspell
+1 Island
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Gurmag Angler

I really like new Lili and want to try her out. Handels annoying stuff like Pyromancer or Strix, feeds DRS + Angler and brings back our own Strixes.

Board stayed nearly the same:

2 Lingering Souls
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vindicate
1 Pithing Needle

Maybe Vindicate should be Council‘s Judgement, but I don’t have one at the moment. At least you can cast Vindicate under Blood Moon.

Without further ado, I’d love to get some feedback on my plans:

Delver
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Zealous Persecution
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Force of Will

Guess key to this MU is surviving their early threads and then take over with Stoneforge and TNN.

Czech Pile
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vindicate

Doesn’t seem like the best MU. Stick TNN and hope to ride him to victory?

Lands
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Umezawas Jitte
-1 Baleful Strix
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 Vindicate
+1 Pithing Needle

Seems like our only chance is fetching Basics, stick TNN and wait fort he right moment to Surgical one of their key Cards.

Death & Taxes
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Disenchant
+1 Vindicate
+1 Pithing Needle

All about handling Vial. Persecution sweeps their Board while TNN+Jitte ride to victory.

Reanimator
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Gurmag Angler
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Vindicate

Maybe it's better to keep the Swords in and cut TNN?

Storm
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Zealous Persecution

Best plan seems to be T1 Discard, T2 Hatebear, T3 Snap Discard and beat down. Persecution against Goblins.

Stoneblade
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Baleful Strix
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Disenchant
+1 Vindicate

Souls is great in the grind-war, Persecution handels TNN, Disenchant catches equipments and Vindicate handels Jace.

Elves
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Batterskull
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Pithing Needle

Seems like you really need the Hatebears to stick. Needle on Wirewood. TNN+Jitte is MVP in this MU. I gues it’s fine to keep Force to stop Reclamation Sage from killing Jitte?

Sneak & Show
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Umezawas Jitte
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Disenchant
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vindicate
+1 Containment Priest

Not sure about Canonist, but it stops counterwars over a Show and Tell.

Miracles
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-3 Baleful Strix
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vindicate

Totally unsure about this. I guess against 4 Mentor you want Persecution?

That’s it for now. Any thoughts on my boarding plans and advice on the MU’s are more than welcome.

Best wishes

Seraphix
09-05-2017, 10:25 AM
...

Elves
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Batterskull
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Pithing Needle

Seems like you really need the Hatebears to stick. Needle on Wirewood. TNN+Jitte is MVP in this MU. I gues it’s fine to keep Force to stop Reclamation Sage from killing Jitte?

...



Invasive Surgery is generally an upgrade over Force of Will in the Elves matchup. It counters several crucial cards (Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, Green Sun's Zenith) and the tradeoff of costing mana instead of an extra card is acceptable since the Elves deck slows down post board and card quantity becomes relevant.

Also, against Miracles I think I'd want to keep Liliana around. She kills most of their creatures, can produce card advantage, and the emblem is quite threatening.

First_Revenge
09-05-2017, 01:14 PM
Maybe Vindicate should be Council‘s Judgement, but I don’t have one at the moment. At least you can cast Vindicate under Blood Moon.


FWIW, I found both vindicate and council’s judgement to be too slow. Council’s judgement might be a better choice since it does deal with TNN and leovold. That being said you are correct in saying it can give you issues with blood moon.



Delver
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Zealous Persecution
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Force of Will

Mostly agree with this. ZP may be an add in too considering decks like grixis delver may run pyromancers alongside delvers.



Czech Pile
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vindicate


Some mistakes here, they don’t run TNNs usually so ZP is probably a mistake.

Here’s what I’d try:
-4 Force of Will
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Surgical Extraction




Lands
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Umezawas Jitte
-1 Baleful Strix
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 Vindicate
+1 Pithing Needle

I’d try and keep the spell pierces in. Lands decks run tutors/accelerants early game that you want to stop. IMO, strix does next to nothing in this matchup, dump him first.



Death & Taxes
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Disenchant
+1 Vindicate
+1 Pithing Needle

This matchup is hard to SB for because DNT attacks us from so many angles. The problem I see with your plan is that you only deal with the vial once it hits the board. You have no one mana answers other than pithing needle. So how do you deal with the following scenario with your opponent on the play?
T1: Vial
T2: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

All your vial hate now costs one more and if you fetch only basics you aren’t deploying disenchant until your T3. If you fetch nonbasics it’ll take longer. I don’t like vindicate in this matchup for this reason, most time I’ll end up costing 4 and just rot in your hand.

Lingering Souls is great in this matchup as they have a lot of X/1s. Here’s what I’d do:
-2 FoW
-3 Baleful Strix
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Liliana the last hope
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Disenchant
+2 Lingering Souls
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Containment Priest

I really agonized of Liliana. Yes, her +1 is basically a machine gun, and yes you can accelerate her out T2. But what if your DRS gets plowed? Now we’re talking about fetching a non-basic, which means we play into wasteland. Also, if they have a thalia down, Liliana isn’t resolving until T4, and you’re still getting wastelanded. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s a really volatile card. You’ll have to experiment since I’m not sure if I’m right here.



Reanimator
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Gurmag Angler
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Vindicate


Don’t agree with these cuts, here’s what I’d do:
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-3 TNN
-1 Baleful Strix
-2 STP
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Etherswon Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Pithing Needle

The key to this matchup is keeping mana open at all times. You REALLY want to keep 1-2 lands open against this deck at all times.

I cut TNN because he costs 3 mana against a deck that doesn’t really have killspells anyway. It’s hard to safely deploy him.

Gurmag angler is great here, get into a counter war, deploy him for 1-2 mana and he’s a monstrous clock.

Baleful strix I cut one of because it’s a really marginal card. It feels mediocre in this matchup, but it pitches to FoW which is why I didn’t cut it entirely

STP I almost want 3 copies of, I’d cut another strix for one of these. A lot of reanimator decks will run weird threats like Grave titan where STP comes in handy. If you bump into this deck see what they’re playing and adjust accordingly.

Canonist is great here. If they don’t deal with it they have to put a threat in the yard/reanimate over two turns. With a DRS+Trop that plan gets really awkward for them. If they show and tell it’s the same story, if they don’t deal with canonist they’re gambling you don’t have a counterspell.

Why are you bringing in vindicate? Seems like a weird choice.

One important thing to note. Watch out for cards like Massacre. They’re free wrath effects if you have a plains in play. For this reason I really go out of my way not to fetch white mana unless I REALLY have to. Don’t get too secure on boards with SFM, Containment Priest, and Canonist as they’re one card away from dying.



Elves
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Batterskull
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Pithing Needle


Don’t quite agree, here’s what I’d do.
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 DRS
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Invasive Surgery

I end up cutting a bit of everything to make this work. Invasive surgery is really good in this MU since elves revolves around a lot of sorceries(GSZ, Glimpse, Natural Order). If you can get the delirium trigger to go off, more power to you.

I don’t like cutting BSkull since jitte often eats a reclamation sage which makes your SFM useless.

Cutting DRS feels bad here, but I’m not sure what else to do. Most of your removal is 1-2 mana and you probably aren’t in too big of a rush to dump a T2 TNN into play.

Other than that I like to prioritize cards like heritage druid/symbiote for immediate removal.

Vindicate was something I wanted to include, but couldn’t find the space. It’s a killspell and can deal with cradles. But it costs 3 mana at sorcery speed, so I ended up not including it.




Sneak & Show
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Umezawas Jitte
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Disenchant
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vindicate
+1 Containment Priest

IMO, this MU ends up playing out a lot like reanimator. You always want to keep 1-2 mana open at all times. I’m guessing there’s some typos in your SB as well.

-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 TNN
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Disenchant
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Vindicate

Disenchant is a marginal card. Ideally you don’t want Sneak attack or omniscience hitting the board at all. I guess its fine though, maybe go up to 2 if you can find the space.

Surgical extraction is great here. Take a SNT off a thoughtseize or a counterspell, and extracting it is a big play. Snapcaster mages will also give you multiple goes at extraction.

I was on the fence about vindicate, but some builds run boseju now, which is a real problem for us.

namewithoutname
09-05-2017, 01:51 PM
Thanks guys, I love this Thread :laugh:




Some mistakes here, they don’t run TNNs usually so ZP is probably a mistake.

Here’s what I’d try:
-4 Force of Will
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Surgical Extraction


Right, will go that route against "traditional" Pile. Saw some Brews with TNN in it, guess in that case ZP is a nice tool to have.



I’d try and keep the spell pierces in. Lands decks run tutors/accelerants early game that you want to stop. IMO, strix does next to nothing in this matchup, dump him first.


Treated the Bird as a flying chumpblocker against Marit Lage. But you're right, doesn't do anything besides that. Better keep them off having the Token in the first place, will cut Strix for Spell Pierce.



This matchup is hard to SB for because DNT attacks us from so many angles. The problem I see with your plan is that you only deal with the vial once it hits the board. You have no one mana answers other than pithing needle. So how do you deal with the following scenario with your opponent on the play?
T1: Vial
T2: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

All your vial hate now costs one more and if you fetch only basics you aren’t deploying disenchant until your T3. If you fetch nonbasics it’ll take longer. I don’t like vindicate in this matchup for this reason, most time I’ll end up costing 4 and just rot in your hand.

Lingering Souls is great in this matchup as they have a lot of X/1s. Here’s what I’d do:
-2 FoW
-3 Baleful Strix
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Liliana the last hope
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Disenchant
+2 Lingering Souls
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Containment Priest


Makes total sense, was focusing too hard on getting Vial off the Battlefield. I'm quite afraid of Priest + Flickerwisp, is she worth that risk? Concerning Liliana, guess I'll have to try some Matches with and without her and see what works best. Maybe there are some other Deathbladers tinkering with her and tell their opinion.



Don’t agree with these cuts, here’s what I’d do:
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-3 TNN
-1 Baleful Strix
-2 STP
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Etherswon Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Pithing Needle

The key to this matchup is keeping mana open at all times. You REALLY want to keep 1-2 lands open against this deck at all times.

Why are you bringing in vindicate? Seems like a weird choice.


Thought of Vindicate as a "catch all" against weird stuff, but thinking again it really was an odd choice. Canonist seems great stopping stuff like Ritual, Entomb, Reanimate. Also stops the UB Version from countering back.



Don’t quite agree, here’s what I’d do.
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 DRS
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Invasive Surgery


Yeah, really gave me a headache what to take out. Surgery indeed seems to shine against them.



IMO, this MU ends up playing out a lot like reanimator. You always want to keep 1-2 mana open at all times. I’m guessing there’s some typos in your SB as well.

-1 Fatal Push
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 TNN
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Disenchant
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Vindicate

Surgical extraction is great here. Take a SNT off a thoughtseize or a counterspell, and extracting it is a big play. Snapcaster mages will also give you multiple goes at extraction.

I was on the fence about vindicate, but some builds run boseju now, which is a real problem for us.

Was wondering how to include Extraction, thanks for helping me out! Like that approach a lot.

First_Revenge
09-06-2017, 12:13 PM
You’re right, I hadn’t considered that angle with flickerwisp. Priest is a pretty marginal card anyway since they can just opt not to put anything in play until they deal with her. TBH, I think that baleful strix is decent in this matchup, so you should probably look into sliding more of him back in. Ya this matchup is tough to SB against, you get pulled in a lot of different ways.

Other thing, I’d probably just yank vindicate altogether. If you look at my lists from way back when, I used to run it as a 1 of maindeck. Eventually I yanked it because it was just too slow. Generally speaking, in legacy 3 mana spells at sorcery speed are haymakers. Vindicate costs the same as SNT, TNN, LOtV, and Leovold to name a few. All of these cards can win games by themselves. Vindicate at its peak trades 1:1. See the problem? You’re probably better off trading in vindicate for something like fatal push, toxic deluge, engineered explosives etc... Or if you’re feeling spicy unearth. You could also do council’s judgement which is better than vindicate since it hits TNN and can bin a leovold without giving them a card.

Neo900
09-07-2017, 02:32 AM
An alternative to Vindicate could be Anguished Unmaking. It's an instant and exiles a nonland permanent. Since its targets you can't hit TNN but I thought always about this card instead removal like Council's Judgment and Vindicate.

Right now I play Murderous Cut over Fatal Push as 1-off. I have good experiences with this so far. The importance to hit a Gurmag Angler is more relevant as I could imagine.


Yesterday was a 6 round event and I went 6-0.
My list was quite the same with minor changes.

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

I cut a Strix to move a Clique from my sideboard to the main. I wanted an extra sideboard slot but also 2 Vendilion Clique in my 75.
Vendilion Clique was great main. The ability, evasion, flash and attack power are never wrong.

Instant + Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Murderous Cut
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

I'm still afraid of Gurmag Angler, Tasigur and Tombstalker. As an answer I exchanged the Fatal Push with Murderous Cut. I couldn't hit any big creatures but it wasn't bad and I#m going to keep it for a while.

Sideboard:
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Lingering Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

As I mentioned before 1 Clique moved to the main. I wanted a catch-all removal because I had some trouble with some artefacts and creatures in the past. My first thougth was Council's Judgment. So what are the pros and cons of this card ?
+ no targeting, can hit everything
+ flashback with snapcaster mage
- sorcery
- 1:w::w: hard to cast
Espacially the last point is problematic in´my eyes. My solution was Engineered Explosives.
+ no targeting, hits multiple permanents
+ no color requirements
+ activation is instant
- one time use
- hits own permanents
- costs often more mana
I guess Engineered Explosives is at the moment the better removal. With Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer we have many tokens and explosives is a good solution to deal with them. Besides that I can cast a Explosives for 3 with Blood Moon in play.

First_Revenge
09-12-2017, 11:39 AM
Minor change to last week, in the SB I yanked toxic deluge in favor of engineered plague. Otherwise, went “undefeated” today. In the past I’ve been a really vocal opponent of lingering souls, but the card continues to prove me wrong. The apology letter I have to write continues to grow longer.

Game 1: Aggro Loam (2-1) Win

Game 1:
We both mull down to 6. I keep something like TNN, DRS, 3 Lands, Thoughtseize. His keep turns out to awkward. He gets stuck on 1 wasteland for two turns. I thoughtseize him revealing DRS, 2x LoTV, Bob. At this point I have a lingering souls in hand and a TNN in play so LoTV isn’t a problem. The only thing that I’m missing is a white source. I end up taking DRS in an effort to keep him off mana. And then I never find a white source to cast souls to protect TNN. He eventually finds BB and casts LoTV forcing me to sacrifice TNN. The game spirals out of control from there and I lose.

Game 2:
-4 FoW
-1 Collective Brutality
-1 Leovold
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Disenchant
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Surgical Extraction

Not sure if I boarded correctly here, but feel free to let me know. G2 isn’t much of a game. I land an early stoneforge mystic and my opponent floods out badly. He really doesn’t do anything and loses. We go to G3.

Game 3:
I’m convinced I made some SB mistakes here. My keep is a TNN, disenchant, spell pierce, lands, and some removal. He leads off with mox diamond, DRS and a tapped tranquil thicket, which I fatal push. Next turn he dumps a chalice on 1 into play. I play a land and pass the turn with the intent to detonate the chalice on his end step. He tries to play another chalice on 1. In response, I disenchant the first chalice and pierce the 2nd one. From there the game goes my way. TNN resolves and eventually gets suited up with a batterskull.

In retrospect I probably would’ve kept more thoughtseizes/pierces to deal with chalices. I honestly forgot aggro loam ran those.

Game 2: Grixis Control(1-1 Draw)

Game 1: These games are so grindy it’s hard to remember exact details. I need to figure out how to play around cabal therapy. This player in particular seems to have my number with this card and always manages to strip out my equipments. He does essentially that here. He deals with an early SFM and takes the equipment away. I manage to deal with his smaller threats like pyromancer, but eventually I get run over by a gurmag angler in short order.

Game 2:
-4 FoW
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 SoFI
+1 Engineered Plague

This game probably took a solid 40 minutes plus. It’s really back and forth. I keep a hand with 2x SFM and a SoFi, with the intent of just jamming SFMs until something sticks. Unfortunately he does his cabal therapy thing again and yanks jitte/SoFi from my deck. Ultimately I’m left with 2 SFMs, and no equipment vs a young pyromancer and an izzet staticaster. I find a third SFM and manage to put a batterskull into play. He continues to cantrip his next turn to build a board with pyromancer. My turn I draw a zealous persecution which he counters. I swing with 3 SFMS and batterskull. He trades all his tokens for the batterskull, and then I swords his pyromancer. He follows up with kholghans command getting his pyromancer back, but at this point he’s only got 1 or 2 cards in hand so he can’t really build a board again. At this point it’s worth nothing he’s at 2 life, and I’m at something like 12ish life. I’m praying to draw a brutality and end the game on the spot, but instead I find lingering souls which is awkward since he still has izzet staticaster on board. It ends up taking a while to clear the board of the staticaster, but once I do lingering souls takes over. He can’t deal with the token spam and they do the last bits of damage.

Game 3:
We essentially start this game in turns and it’s apparent to both of us that we won’t finish, but we try anyway. He probes me twice to start the game, seeing my opening hand of DRS, TNN, STP, thoughtseize, and some lands. He ponders as well in there, so it’s pretty apparent he’s going for a quick gurmag angler to try and steal a win out. My T1 I play swamp, DRS, and pass, he cantrips some more and does end up deploying a gurmag angler. I end up having to do some thinking here, he knows my hand so I can’t keep any secrets here, my choice is between an early TNN or a thoughtseize. I’m pretty convinced my opponent has the counter so I end up going the thoughtseize route, which he counters. I follow up with a brutality to see whats up, and I take a FoW as well. Next turn I deploy TNN and swords a gurmag. It becomes clear it’s a draw and we leave the game unresolved.


Match 3: Maverick (2-1 Win)

Game 1:
Really thought I had this one. I manage to resolve TNN and Leovold against him which normally is a win. Except he gets a tireless tracker on board and makes it huge. Leovold kind of holds him in check since he can’t draw the cards off tireless tracker, but still it gets big. He eventually finds a mom to break the TNN deadlock. I can’t find STP to save my life and I get put in my place by an 8/8 tracker.

Game 2:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Disenchant
+1 Engineered Plague
+2 Fatal Push
+1 SoFI
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Zealous Persecution

Game 2 goes pretty textbook for me. We trade some removal spells in the early game, my T3 play is a TNN and my T4 play is JTMS. JTMS essentially brainstorms me to victory. My opponent tries to keep up, but JTMS is just too much. I eventually win this match up off a jace ultimate.

Game 3:
Probably the most interesting game I play all night. My opener is 3 fetchlands, lingering souls, jitte, zealous persecution, and something else. I can’t ask for much of a better hand, fetchlands will get me my basics, and I figure I’ll ride lingering souls+jitte to victory. His first two turns he deploys two Mom’s which eat my ZP. And then he plays choke. At this point I don’t have a way to remove it, but I do have swamp/plains operational, but any other fetchable lands in my deck are essentially one time use. I don’t feel like I have much of a choice, so I crack a fetchland to deploy souls and essentially wasteland myself. His next turn he deploys SFM fetching jitte and passes the turn.

This really puts me in a bind. Thanks to choke I only have two operational lands so I can’t play+equip jitte in the same turn. If I play jitte and just pass, he has the mana to play jitte and glue it to SFM which deals with my tokens and basically kills me. I opt to play SFM fetching SoFi so I force him to make a choice between SFM and the tokens. I also play a fetchland giving me 3 potential mana next turn, I have no other lands in hand. I think it’s here my opponent makes a critical mistake. Instead of swinging with SFM+Jitte he deploys a knight of the reliquary and passes. Best guess is that he assumed I left countermagic in so he was hesitant to cast jitte then equip it. Had he made this move he probably would have won the game on the spot.

At this point I too have an interesting decision to make. My draw for the turn is a fetchland. I have a JTMS in hand and another fetchland in play. So I can deploy JTMS, and I feel I can defend him well with 2x souls and a SFM. I take a chance and deploy jace and +2 him. My alternate plan was cracking those fetches and getting my souls suited up. It turns out I am able to defend him. A lot of my creatures eat it as a consequence since knight ends up carrying jitte on the attack. I untap, draw, brainstorm, and find wasteland, STP and something else. Wasteland is a godsend as it actually untaps under a choke. STP kills his equipped knight on attack step. From there my win is inevitable. JTMS brainstorms at will and lingering souls gets flashed back, eventually someone carries equipment in and wins it.



For the future, gurmag angler is beginning to give me trouble under certain circumstances. I’ll have to look into stuff like murderous cut or diabolic edict to deal with it. Edict has the bonus of being an out to lands.

namewithoutname
09-12-2017, 03:46 PM
Congratulations you two!

Did you miss a tool to handle resolved Planeswalker in your 75? It's my main reason for that Sideboard Vindicate.

First_Revenge
09-12-2017, 04:12 PM
Congratulations you two!

Did you miss a tool to handle resolved Planeswalker in your 75? It's my main reason for that Sideboard Vindicate.

Starting 76, thank you very much. :P

Now that you mention it, yes, my deck does not necessarily have a card to kill a resolved planeswalker outright. Thinking about it now, I don’t value it too much since the most popular walkers such as Jace or Liliana get so much value from just one activation. A resolved Liliana is probably killing your TNN regardless of vindicate. Similarly, a resolved jace brainstorming puts your opponent very far ahead. Even dealing with it a turn later may not be enough.

Primarily, my goal is to see a planeswalker via thoughseize/brutality and play around it by keeping countermagic up. Or if that fails, I generally hope to beat the walker with TNNs.

If I were to include something to hose walkers it probably wouldn’t be vindicate. As I’ve said in the past I consider the card far too slow and it’s bad against TNN/Leovold which are very popular now. Also since the banning of top legacy has sped up in general. IMO there’s fewer walkers running around than before. Hell, there’s even some stoneblade lists that have cut their jaces altogether. If I had to pick a 3 mana removal spell it’d probably end up being council’s judgement since it hits just about everything. Council’s WW casting cost however can be problematic.

That being said, if walkers really are a problem I’d probably start bringing in more pithing needles before I started reaching for the more expensive answers.

whocansay
09-13-2017, 04:45 PM
Killing it neo. Do you stream anywhere? Would love to see you play some time!

Neo900
09-15-2017, 05:14 AM
Killing it neo. Do you stream anywhere? Would love to see you play some time!
Thanks. I keep performing well at my lgs on tuesdays. This week with another 2-0-1.
unfortunately I'm not streaming or anything like this. Maybe I will do something like this in the future but by now I have just Instagram where I try to show off as much as I can about my performing, playing and mtg lifestyle. I try to play as much as I can on xmage. I'll start working next week again so I don't have much time anyway. When I can move my computer out of the living room I'm going to try something like youtube or streaming or some real life videos.

First_Revenge
09-22-2017, 12:00 PM
This week tried a new card shop, but only 4 people showed, so we played some casual round robin instead. We didn’t really play that seriously and sometimes we played multiple G1’s, so this won’t be a normal tournament report, more of a lessons learned sort of deal.

Match 1: Burn
Burn matches tend to go quickly so I played a lot against this guy. The generic line of play for us is simple, we want killspells, countermagic, and most importantly basics. G1s can be really rough, as generically good hands can suddenly turn really bad. For example, in my first game if I had thoughtseized fetching underground sea, I’m out 3 life to get the land and deploy the thoughtseize, and I’ve also turned on price of progress.

Sideboarding should be fairly simple, but if you really want help feel free to ask since it’ll depend on what your exact list. Generically, you probably want to get rid of high costed spells like jace or cards that cost you life like thoughtseize.

I lost most of these matches partly because I didn’t draw well, and one time I way overextended. I deployed a batterskull with 2 non basics in play and 17 life. I half read him wrong, half should’ve known better. He hadn’t been doing much and had 6 cards in had on T5, which for a burn deck should’ve put me on red alert. I go for the greedy play and try to resolve a batterskull to put the game away. He plays 3 price of progress, fire blast, and a bolt at my endstep and during his turn to kill me. Those two non basics ended up kill me. You really don’t want more than one non basic in this matchup if you can help it. Hell, even wastelanding your own non basic in this matchup in response to price of progress is a valid play.

Other than that, the games that I did win it felt like I won off the back of goblin guide. Brainstorming in response to his draw trigger or leaving a land on top with ponder nets you some serious card advantage. I turn these lands into collective brutality escalated twice, which is absolutely brutal in this matchup since all modes of the card are extremely relevant. If you can engineer a way to draw cards off him considering leaving the guide alone for a bit.


Match 2: Czech Pile
Our games really swing back and forth. His manabase gets him in trouble G1 and he ends up losing. My manabase gets me in trouble G2 and I end up losing. At this point I make an experimental SB.

-4 FoW
-3 SFM
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Invasive Surgery

I think I ended up winning this one, but my memory is fuzzy. I essentially side out the entire SFM package because kholghans command is so rough. I leave in batterskull because you can return him making it a difficult card to deal with. I have no idea whether this is correct or not and welcome feedback. ZP ended up being a mistake as he didn’t run TNN. If you get this matchup prepare for a long game. If you have lingering souls, it’s probably the best card you have in this matchup.


Match 3: Elves
I lose G1, but G2 and G3 I win off the back of Jitte which is backbreaking in this matchup. If you can connect even once you’re odds of winning skyrocket. That being said, elves is a tricky deck to play against and I definitely fell into quite a few traps playing against him. Thankfully jitte is so powerful that those mistakes didn’t end up mattering, but still my play was pretty sloppy.

For Reference here is my SB plan:
-2 Jace
-2 Lingering Souls
-2 Spell Pierce
-4 DRS
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Containment Priest

There’s an argument for pithing needle to be included as it shuts down quite a few of they’re shenanigans. I just can’t find space for it, and generally I want to kill their stuff and not just turn it off. Gaea’s cradle/heritage druid can still make use of critters stuck under the needle. Most notably, DRS get cut because I don’t feel like I need to go fast in this matchup. As long as I can keep their board under control I’m okay. For me, the magic number is 3 elves in play. From general experience, once an opponent gets 3 elves in play I find things spiral out of control really quickly. So here’s a non-exhaustive list of the weird combat tricks elves can do.

Before we go any further, wirewood symbiote is public enemy #1. Kill it on sight every time, don’t try to be cute and play around it, it needed to be dead yesterday. Symbiote turns off killspells and makes your life stupidly difficult.

Also, while getting jitte with counters is normally a win, you need to be careful how you treat the counters. Yes jitte acts like a machine gun, but you still have to use it correctly or you’ll throw away bullets. Be careful and use the counters one at a time.

Dryad Arbor+Quirion Ranger:
Quirion Ranger bounces dryad arbor. Don’t try to wasteland dryad arbor with ranger in play(I did this), they’ll just bounce arbor in response and leave you holding the bag. If you want to kill the arbor, you need to kill the ranger first. If you burn a removal spell like STP on arbor only to see it get bounced in response you will feel extremely foolish.
Jitte play around this card also needs to be tight. With two jitte counters you need to target the ranger first, then the arbor if they decide to bounce it. If you try to shortcut it and deploy both jitte counters at once like I did, you’ll only kill the ranger since they’ll bouncer arbor in response. Dryad Arbor can also infinitely block, they’ll declare arbor as a blocker, then bounce it before damage. If you’re jitte isn’t glued to a TNN this means you aren’t getting jitte counters.

Pendelhaven:
This card is annoying. +1/+2 ability means that if you want to kill a 1/1, you’ll have to use both jitte counters. An initial one to target the creature, then another counter in response to the +1/+2 ability to actually kill it. It also turns off cards like collective brutality entirely. My mistake against this card was shortcutting jitte counters by removing two jitte counters to kill a symbiote and something else at the same time. His pendelhaven activation saved the symbiote. Had I been more careful and deployed the jitte counters one at a time I could have killed the symbiote.

So against elves, the big lesson is, always think through your jitte counters clearly, and never shortcut the process by removing both counters simultaneously. Remove them one at time. Perhaps even more importantly, before you commit a removal spell, make sure there aren’t any shenanigans on the table. Losing a jitte counter is inefficient, wasting a removal spell is gamebreaking.

More of a general note, this game revolves around jitte. Before you even deploy it, clear the way with cards like thoughtseize/brutality and primarily target down abrupt decay. Their other method of getting jitte off the table is reclamation sage. If that gets played, obviously counter it. But you’ll also be locked into countering Green Sun’s Zenith for 3, which would put the sage into play.

And finally, this came up, whenever you attack with batterskull, always clearly declare it and make sure your opponent acknowledges it. It has vigilance so tapping as a clear indicator doesn’t work. These games were casual, so we just retroactively corrected the problem the next turn. Had this been under comp REL, a judge would have gotten involved and I don’t know what the ruling would have been.

Seraphix
09-23-2017, 09:55 AM
After a several month hiatus from the Deathblade I played it in some weeklies recently with good results, going 4-1, 3-1, and 3-0-1.

List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x True-Name Nemesis

4x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thoughtseize
1x Spell Pierce
1x Collective Brutality
4x Force of Will
1x Vindicate
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Wasteland

SB: 2x Surgical Extraction
SB: 2x Meddling Mage
SB: 1x Pithing Needle
SB: 1x Disenchant
SB: 1x Toxic Deluge
SB: 1x Zealous Persecution
SB: 1x Disfigure (I don't have a Fatal Push...)
SB: 1x Engineered Explosives
SB: 1x Flusterstorm
SB: 1x Containment Priest
SB: 1x Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1x Bitterblossom
SB: 1x Vendilion Clique






...

Match 2: Czech Pile
Our games really swing back and forth. His manabase gets him in trouble G1 and he ends up losing. My manabase gets me in trouble G2 and I end up losing. At this point I make an experimental SB.

-4 FoW
-3 SFM
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Invasive Surgery

I think I ended up winning this one, but my memory is fuzzy. I essentially side out the entire SFM package because kholghans command is so rough. I leave in batterskull because you can return him making it a difficult card to deal with. I have no idea whether this is correct or not and welcome feedback. ZP ended up being a mistake as he didn’t run TNN. If you get this matchup prepare for a long game. If you have lingering souls, it’s probably the best card you have in this matchup.

...



Appalling as the Czech Pile matchup is, I don't think taking out SFM/Equips is correct. As bad as the Equips are vs K-Command, they are good in the matchup if you can keep them in play for a few turns. Without Equips we have fewer threats and fewer sources of card advantage, which isn't helpful in a grind, unless you have something like 3x Lingering Souls in the sideboard to replace them with - but if you have to SB out your grindiest cards against a grindy deck, it brings the merits of playing the SFM package at all into serious question. For now, I'm going to stick to Equips in the matchup and just try to slog through it the best I can. You just have to engineer situations like "surprise" casting and equipping Sword/Jitte while they don't have K-Command mana up, putting in Batterskull off SFM with 3 mana available to bounce it, or trying to leverage a tempo loss by leaving SFM activation up while bullying them with other things. There's an argument to keeping FoW in to protect them from K-Command, but I haven't tried this yet. Hydroblast is another decent SB card that can fill a similar role in this matchup. Even Nahiri, the Lithomancer is worth considering since she can resurrect your Equips.

About ZP in the matchup, I actually like it since it counters their -x/-x effects and cleans up whatever random Snapcasters/Strixes they have in play.

CptHaddock
09-23-2017, 11:11 AM
Appalling as the Czech Pile matchup is, I don't think taking out SFM/Equips is correct. As bad as the Equips are vs K-Command, they are good in the matchup if you can keep them in play for a few turns. Without Equips we have fewer threats and fewer sources of card advantage, which isn't helpful in a grind, unless you have something like 3x Lingering Souls in the sideboard to replace them with - but if you have to SB out your grindiest cards against a grindy deck, it brings the merits of playing the SFM package at all into serious question. For now, I'm going to stick to Equips in the matchup and just try to slog through it the best I can. You just have to engineer situations like "surprise" casting and equipping Sword/Jitte while they don't have K-Command mana up, putting in Batterskull off SFM with 3 mana available to bounce it, or trying to leverage a tempo loss by leaving SFM activation up while bullying them with other things. There's an argument to keeping FoW in to protect them from K-Command, but I haven't tried this yet. Hydroblast is another decent SB card that can fill a similar role in this matchup. Even Nahiri, the Lithomancer is worth considering since she can resurrect your Equips.

About ZP in the matchup, I actually like it since it counters their -x/-x effects and cleans up whatever random Snapcasters/Strixes they have in play.

I'm usually on the greedier version of deathblade (bant) but I 100% agree about the SFM package in this MU, it's often one of the ways that you can grind the 4c Control deck out with any blade deck. If you really need the slots I can see shaving a Jitte and a SFM but I like having Jitte as it basically makes all your guys into potential threats. I don't really think that the contemporary wisdom of boarding out your forces in fair matchups really applies to the 4c Control match, their haymakers almost end the game on the spot. I

First_Revenge
09-26-2017, 11:46 AM
Average night, 7 players and wound up with a bye, so I only got to play two rounds.


Match 1: BUG Delver(1-2 Loss)
Game 1:
Game 1 he lands a T3 leovold, and I more or less automatically assume he’s on Czech pile. I plow the leovold and draw absolutely nuts. I get all 3 TNNs and a lingering souls to overrun him. It’s not much of a game.

Game 2:
Sideboard:
-4 FoW
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Pithing Needle(he runs Liliana)
+1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2 I keep a hand with ponder, brainstorm, DRS, 2x SFM, STP, and one land. I lead off with a ponder, see no lands and shuffle. My next turn I draw blank, deploy DRS and pass. He plays hymn and takes both SFM, which completely demolishes my game plan. My next turn I brainstorm and still see no lands. I spend the next 4 turns stuck on one land with no deployable threats. Ugh.

Game 3:
I can’t really remember much of this game, but he gets another great hymn to go off. On T4 or something, I think I’ve got the game wrapped up. I deploy SFM, fetch batterskull with about 6 cards in hand. He hymns me and of course finds the batterskull. The game pretty much falls apart from there and he takes Game 3.

I half blame myself for these losses. Flusterstorm/invasive surgery were cards that I really should have included. But at the same time, damn he got two perfect hymns off.


Match 2: BYE(2-0)
My loss kicks me directly in the bye braket. Spent the time watching my opponents play their games out. Was nice to catch a breather. Based on game outcomes I knew my 3rd match was going to play be either aggro loam or storm.


Match 3: Storm (2-0 Win)
Game 1:
I keep DRS, SFM, thoughtseize, brutality, cantrips, and lands. I know he’s playing storm, so this feels like a pretty reasonable keep. My opponent mulligans down to 5, which is great news for me. I deploy DRS and follow up with thoughtseize/brutality taking away key cards from an already depleted hand. SFM hits the board, but the batterskull gets stripped by a therapy. The game kinda stalls out from here. I can’t find more threats and begin to flood out, he mulled to 5 and had 2 cards taken away so he takes about 3-4 turns to start rebuilding his hand. In this time SFM/DRS get him down really low, and at some point I deploy a jace. He actually does manage to kinda go off with empty the warrens, dumping 10 goblins into play. But by the time he goes off he’s already at 4 life facing an active DRS, and I’m pretty much untouched. DRS drains him for lethal.

Game 2:
-2 Lingering Souls
-3 TNN
-4 STP
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Zealous Persecution

I feel pretty confident going into G2. I know my deck is absolutely stacked to the rafters with hate. My opponent later explained that storm can deal with counterspells or targeted discard, but it really has a hard time dealing with both. Brutality really shines here, post sideboard I have 6 discard spells and a metric ton of countermagic.
My opening hand is alright. FoW, pierce, leovold, brainstorm, and 4 lands. I decide to keep it. I draw another force and then get duressed. I debate brainstorm, but I decide I can lose a FoW and still be in decent shape. He duresses again, and I brainstorm to hide my last FoW and jace on top. I reveal a hand with leovold and no other blue cards, and I think he takes either thoughtseize or SFM and then passes. Leovold hits the board and he brainstorms in response. He takes his next turn to sculpt his hand and passes. My turn 4 I take a risk and deploy jace and brainstorm. I draw the FoW I’ve been juggling and another blue card thankfully. This more or less forces my opponent to go off, leovold+jace are one hell of a clock. He knows I’ve been juggling a FoW on top of my library, but he’s not sure I if I have the blue card to go with it. He decides to make me have it and attempts to go off. I do have it, and I FoW his infernal tutor more or less ending the game on the spot.

whocansay
09-26-2017, 05:16 PM
Maybe I will do something like this in the future but by now I have just Instagram where I try to show off as much as I can about my performing, playing and mtg lifestyle.

Well no offense, but I'm looking for top tier strategies from an experienced player rather than pictures of dead animals, foil cards and selfies ;)

Do let us know if you decide to stream!

First_Revenge
10-17-2017, 11:57 AM
Played last week, but got busy didn’t write a report up. At this point I’ve forgotten the matchups so that write-up is lost to time. Roughly I lost to hymn to tourach in a BUG delver deck. I beat an elves deck, and I lost again to the same UWr stoneblade pilot. UWr feels like a longer range version of our deck, and I feel like my deck consistently falls apart in the late game vs UWr.

This week I went 2-1 with a bye due to an odd number of players.

Match 1:
BYE

Match 2: (Esper Deathblade 2-1 Win)
Bit of an odd matchup, I’ve been in stoneblade mirrors, but never an actual mirror match before. The pilot was inexperienced, apparently he sold out of modern and outright bought all of esper deathblade the day before. As a result he played rather clumsily sometimes, but I was no better when I first started legacy.

Game 1:
I end up losing this match after getting choked on white mana. I keep a hand with swamp, underground sea, lingering souls, stp, brainstorm, and some other stuff. The game goes fine for the first two or three turns, and at some point he deploys SFM. I cast brainstorm digging for white, but find only bricks, I can’t kill the SFM and most of the cards in my hand are white at this point. I end up losing to a batterskull staring at a bunch of uncastable cards in hand.

Game 2:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Disenchant
+1 SoFi

Game 2 I end up keeping a hand of Jace, brutality, thoughtseize, STP, Fatal Push and some lands. My opponent makes the mistake of going for the SFM turn 2. In this grindy matchup there isn’t really a rush to deploy SFM. I try to kill it with fatal push, he FoW’s it. At this point I cast collective brutality and escalate it. He’s tapped out so he can only FoW which is fine, at this point my plan is to get all the countermagic out of his hand then resolve a jace. He reveals his hand, I take a brainstorm, leaving him with no countermagic. Jace resolves the next turn and brainstorms to victory.

Game 3:
My opponent loses to his manabase. He suffers the same fate as me in game 1, and gets stuck on 2 underground seas when all he needed was white mana. He can’t really cast anything and eventually TNN ganks him.

Match 3:(Grixis Delver 1-2 Loss)

Game 1:
I’m still frustrated by the serious misplay I made here, it cost me the game and eventually the match. In the early game we trade resources and on T6 we both have one card in hand. I have 4 lands and 2 fetchlands in play with JTMS in hand. He has wasteland in play and spell pierce in hand. At this point I’m convinced I’ve won, I can just run jace out and brainstorm to victory. I cast jace off the four lands in play. He wastelands my fetchland in response, in response I crack both fetches, and in response he casts spell pierce. Now I can’t pay the spell pierce tax, my mana is stuck under the stack. JTMS gets countered and I lose not long thereafter. In retrospect, cracking fetchlands before casting JTMS would’ve seen me through to a win. I’m still pissed I made this mistake, it probably cost me the match.

Game 2:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Engineered Explosives

I keep a hand of fatal push, collective brutality, engineered plague, and some other stuff. We both do nothing until about T2 when he resolves a grim lavamancer. I cast brutality targeting the lavamancer, which he spell pierces. I then try to push the lavamancer, but he dazes it. He seems really bent on protecting that card. My next turn I cast engineered plague naming wizards, which has the benefit of killing the lavamancer and any delvers he plays. He scoops the next turn when I resolve a SFM. It turns out he had pondered into 3 delver of secrets and had just planned to run them out one at a time until I couldn’t deal with them. Plague blanked that plan.

Game 3:
His deck plays 4 wasteland and 4 stifle, and I get too greedy. I keep a hand of DRS, polluted delta, wasteland, brainstorm, TNN, and leovold. Already having taken a mulligan I decide to go all in on the DRS->TNN/Leovold plan. It doesn’t work out. My delta fetches an underground sea and DRS gets played. He wastelands the underground sea, and his active DRS turns off my DRS. From there I get pinned under stifles and wastelands and don’t really get to do anything.

whocansay
10-22-2017, 11:01 AM
Hanni Alnimer will be fighting for the Eternal Weekend Legacy title today with this wild list:

Lands and Mana Sources:
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

Artifacts:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Back to Basics
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution

Hanni
10-22-2017, 10:37 PM
Hanni Alnimer will be fighting for the Eternal Weekend Legacy title today with this wild list:

Lands and Mana Sources:
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

Artifacts:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Back to Basics
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution

In case any of you Deathblade players do not frequent the threads in the New and Developmental Decks section, I've been posting in the Esper Mentor thread instead of in here for the last couple of weeks. The identity of my list is sort of like a cross between the two, so I figured I'd post in here as well for anyone that was interested.

First_Revenge
10-25-2017, 12:51 PM
Played again at a store I’ve only done once before, went pretty well, piloting to a 2-0-1 finish. I haven’t posted my list in a while, it’s become pretty stable at this point. I do want to add either a snapcaster, unearth, or painful truths to the list somewhere. Not sure where to make the cuts though.
Lands-21

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Creatures-12

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


Spells: 24

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares


Artifacts: 2

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte


Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push


Match 1: Eldrazi(2-0 Win)
Should be noted that my opponent’s deck wasn’t ideal by legacy standards. He only had 2 chalices and no city of traitors, so this matchup was probably significantly easier than it should have been. I realized pretty quickly that he didn’t have city since he was playing crystal vein as a substitute. I played under the assumption he had 4 chalices though.
Game 1:
I manage to stick an early TNN and beat down for the win essentially. I have enough killspells/counters to hold him at bay, a wasteland in there somewhere also slows him down significantly.

Game 2:
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Thoughtseize
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Disenchant
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Engineered Plague

Keep a hand of deathrite, wasteland, 2x fetches, 2x TNN, and FoW. Snapkeep. I wasteland his eye of ugin, and deploy a T2 TNN, the turn after another TNN drops. I get him to 9 life before I have to hold my TNNs back on defense due to his eldrazi. I brainstorm, find a lingering souls, and cast both halves of it to get 4 blockers, 1 TNN gets in there putting him to 6. He can’t kill me and I get lethal next turn.

Match 2: Dredge(2-1 Win)
Game 1:
I know my opponent won his previous matchup in about 10 minutes, so he’s on something busted. I peg him on BR reanimator. I keep a hand of thoughtseize, some lands, brainstorm, ponder. I thoughtseize, realize he’s on dredge and he has two discard outlets and dredger in hand. I take one of them, and he goes off with the other.
In retrospect, the keep was a mistake. I knew he was playing something broken, but I still kept a hand with only thoughtseize. Brainstorm/ponder never had a chance to fix my hand.

Game 2:
-3 TNN
-2 Lingering Souls
-1 Collective Brutality
-1 Jitte
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 SoFi

The only thing that saves me this game is my opponent mulligans to 6. I keep a hand with thoughtseize, FoW, Jace, spell pierce, and some lands. I play underground sea and pass, I pierce his careful study, the next turn I thoughtseize, but I draw blank. He just draws and passes. I draw SFM, and fetch SoFi to start drawing cards. This happens over about 2 turns, but I just can’t find anything useful. In the meantime, he actually dredges twice, but somehow blanks twice. Had he dredged successfully I would have been dead. At 10 life, he discards a grave troll to hand size. I hit him again with SoFi putting him to 5, but I still can’t find anything to get rid of the troll. I snapcaster mage/brainstorm trying to find a way out but I blank. Since I can’t dig my way out of the hole I try to go wide, deploying a 2nd SFM and a leovold. I mistakenly believe leovold will shut down his additional dredge triggers. Long story short it doesn’t, dredge replaces the draw effect so leovold doesn’t shut down extra dredges. My opponent kinda goes off, putting 2 zombies in play. Next turn I deploy brutality and escalate it, draining him and killing a zombie blocker. I swing for lethal. I got supremely lucky this game when he blanked off two dredge triggers.

Game 3:
I mulligan down to deathrite, thoughtseize, spell pierce, batterskull, and 2 lands. Scry reveals a surgical extraction on top. About as good as 6 cards can get. My opponent mulligans to 5, which is probably the only reason I won this game. My opponent plays a land and putrid imp and passes, I draw my extraction. Now that he has a discard outlet in putrid imp, I play DRS to try and control the yard. He casts firestorm on his turn, killing DRS and discarding his hand, revealing he has no dredgers. We now enter the awkward phase of the game.
I draw two lands in a row, so I’m blank. He finds cephalid coliseum and begins discarding via putrid imp to get the coliseum’s threshold trigger to go off. When he gets to 6 cards in yard I’m forced to deploy my extraction taking out two ichords, cutting his yard down to 4 cards. The next turn I find STP and get the imp off the board. After that, I draw 3 more lands in a row, and my opponent is drawing equally badly. Eventually I deploy batterskull just to get some sort of clock on the table. Next, my opponent starts ticking down his gemstone mines just to get them in the yard for threshold. If he gets threshold or draws any draw/discard spell it’s probably GG, he has two coliseums at this point so he’ll draw 6 cards if threshold gets reached. I’ve got nothing but lands in hand. So that’s my life at this point, my hardcast batterskull is racing against gemstone mines. Batterskull essentially gets it done in the end, outracing the last gemstone mine by one turn. I’m amazed he couldn’t draw something to get out of it.

Game 3: DnT(ID)
We played this one out for fun after we ID. DnT has always been a miserable matchup for me, and I lost in two games after getting pinned under mana restrictions. I talked with the guy afterwards for sideboarding advice, and he gave me the following which I’ll be trying in the future:

-2 Spell Pierce
-2 FoW
-1 Jace
-1 Collective Brutality
-3 Thoughtseize
+2 Fatal Push
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Disenchant

Molz7
10-27-2017, 01:15 PM
Thoughts on basics currently?

Good versus Pop.

Medium versus wasteland (they waste your colored sources, but you got one use out of them)

Good versus ghost quarter

Medium versus blood moon. (is a single island and swamp going to win me a game?)

I solidly think wasteland is better than basics, but I'm trying to see if you can do solidly 4 color while also running basics. I'm trying to play a few leovolds and a library. Normally the Czech pile deck needs to pick basics or wasteland not both.

First_Revenge
10-27-2017, 03:32 PM
Thoughts on basics currently?

Good versus Pop.

Medium versus wasteland (they waste your colored sources, but you got one use out of them)

Good versus ghost quarter

Medium versus blood moon. (is a single island and swamp going to win me a game?)

I solidly think wasteland is better than basics, but I'm trying to see if you can do solidly 4 color while also running basics. I'm trying to play a few leovolds and a library. Normally the Czech pile deck needs to pick basics or wasteland not both.

Hmm that’s a good question. So im assuming you’re going for a full 4C stoneblade build, as opposed to the more 3.5C builds I like. So can you fit some basics in there? I’d say probably not, but here’s my longwinded explanation:

First off, I’m just about positive to even think about a 4C deck seriously you’re going to need to run 4 DRS. I’m just don’t think you can get around it.


Beyond that, I think that doing a full 4C deck with basics and only leaning on DRS is really greedy. Everyone knows DRS is a problem so it’s likely that DRS ends up dying pretty quickly. If your DRS ends up dying you could be in pretty big trouble, your ramp and mana fixing are gone. And considering there are only 4 in the deck, there are a lot of games where you’ll only have access to 1 DRS, the one that just ate shit. It’s why in esper deathblade builds green is only a light splash color.

That being said, based on what you’re saying, it sounds like you should play bant deathlade. Bant deathblade runs 3-4 noble hierarchs in addition to 4 DRS. In this case, they have all the mana dorks in the world and at least one of them is likely to stick. Because of this, the deck doesn’t need basics. Since your mana is so creature oriented you almost stop caring about wastelands/blood moons/price of progress anyway. The deck is fundamentally built around deploying a T2 leovold or TNN and riding it to victory. The tradeoff being that bant deathblade trades in its long range cards for things like daze and noble hierarch. That being said, if you really wanted to run basics, you could probably yank the 2-3 wastelands bant deathblade runs and replace them with basics. Again though, this seems unnecessary given the number of mana dorks you have.

So my answer to you at least in terms of stoneblade is no, you probably shouldn’t run a 4C list with basics. UW, UWR, and UWB stoneblade just don’t have the manabase to support a 4th color without basics. Bant deathblade only gets away with it by sheer number of mana dorks, and by the time you’re running that many mana dorks you’re already evading most nonbasic hate anyway so why bother with the basics? If you really are stuck to playing basics though maybe you end up running bant deathblade with a singleton forest which would allow you deploy both DRS and hierarch.

Hanni
10-27-2017, 03:47 PM
Thoughts on basics currently?

Good versus Pop.

Medium versus wasteland (they waste your colored sources, but you got one use out of them)

Good versus ghost quarter

Medium versus blood moon. (is a single island and swamp going to win me a game?)

I solidly think wasteland is better than basics, but I'm trying to see if you can do solidly 4 color while also running basics. I'm trying to play a few leovolds and a library. Normally the Czech pile deck needs to pick basics or wasteland not both.

If you're going greedy on color source requirements, like UB for Baleful Strix, WW for Council's Judgment, UGB for Leovold... you cannot afford to run basics. You will hurt yourself more than you would by just playing duals. If you already have 1-2 duals out, you're already vulnerable to Wasteland anyway so basics won't help you.

Basics are great for minimizing the effect of an opposing Back to Basics or Price of Progress, sure. But if your deck construction is color source greedy, you're going to lose to your own manabase more often than opposing hate if you try to run basics.

Running Wasteland is even worse, and really doesn't make much sense for a deck like this. Utility lands can be problematic, but there are usually other ways of dealing with them that are much cleaner... Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction, etc. Unlike Czech Pile, this deck has Swords to Plowshares to deal with Marit Lage.

Honestly, I think the best configuration is to not be color source greedy, and to run a healthy number of basics, like I did at EW. The light colored requirements + lots of basics was instrumental in improving my Delver matchups.

EDIT: My reply above was in reference to traditional Deathblade, not the 4c version with Hierarch's. That deck is completely different. I do believe that deck is fantastic, but it's a tempo/aggro deck, not a control deck like traditional Deathblade is. That deck operates fine despite being 4c and running Wasteland because of the 8 mana dorks. Even still, that deck can run into mana issues, and has to mulligan more often than a less greedy deck would.

whocansay
10-30-2017, 09:48 AM
Super greedy 4C Deathblade wins the DC Open! Thoughts?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/810325#paper

Hanni
10-30-2017, 09:56 AM
Makes me eat my words from my previous post about manabases, lol.

True-Name Nemesis is a super powerful card. When people aren't prepared for it, it definitely crushes fair decks.

I am a little curious about how much Delver he played against, though. I've found that matchup to be difficult without a stable manabase (basics + light colored requirements), or the 8 mana dork plan that Bant Deathblade uses.

whocansay
10-30-2017, 10:04 AM
Right, same here.. I couldn't help but look at that manabase and wonder how the hell he managed to make it through all the Grixis Delver matches. Well, he must be doing something right.

Pretty streamlined list in any case. 4 Mystics, 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Nemeses.

First_Revenge
10-30-2017, 10:31 AM
Super greedy 4C Deathblade wins the DC Open! Thoughts?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/810325#paper

Just off the cuff.

This smells list seems like bant and esper deathblade had a child. Mana ramp into 4 TNN/3 leovold(1 in SB) seems like the classic bant deathblade play. But it trades in noble hierarch/dazes in for more midrange cards swinging it partially into the esper camp.

The manabase is super greedy, I kinda wonder what the lone island is doing there tbh. I’d honestly just consider shifting it over to another green source like a trop.

4 TNN seems like a bit much, I personally diversify a bit and run TNNs with lingering souls. 2 leovolds seems super sweet, I’ve wanted to run 2, but I remain doubtful my manabase can support it.

1 JTMS seems kinda thin, he really does end a lot of games on the spot if you manage to untap with him. He really is such a powerhouse I can’t personally justify running less than 2.

I think the omission of spell pierce is pretty big here. His only way to counter a spell is a 2-1 which I think is a problem.

4 thoughtseize I’ve found to be excessive since it can be a dead draw late game, but it’s probably fine.

His SB is pretty greedy as well. Two council’s judgment is a lot, the WW casting cost can be restrictive. And a 3rd leovold off 2 green sources?? Geez, I think even bant deathblade only runs two leovold.

Overall, the deck is very powerful assuming your mana doesn’t come under too much pressure. If you watch game 2 of the finals you can see his manabase getting punished severely, but he kept drawing the nuts. Getting double wasteland off blue, then casting council’s judgement off his remaining lands was pretty luck of him IMO. Glad to see deathblade up there again though!

Molz7
10-30-2017, 11:28 AM
Makes me eat my words from my previous post about manabases, lol.

True-Name Nemesis is a super powerful card. When people aren't prepared for it, it definitely crushes fair decks.

I am a little curious about how much Delver he played against, though. I've found that matchup to be difficult without a stable manabase (basics + light colored requirements), or the 8 mana dork plan that Bant Deathblade uses.



So ironically, I'm Jon Goss, the SCG winner!

My question to the forum was the night before the SCG with some last minute manabase thoughts. I'll write up how things felt and a tournament report to explain what I've faced and where key pieces performed well.

Deck was definitely a blast! Very strong and I am fairly confident with many of my design decisions that I can explain in a future post. I've been playing this type of deck and this specific style for years to great success.


About the single island:

As I explained earlier, basics are versus Bloodmoon, POP, wasteland, and Ghost Quarter.

Versus bloodmoon, only 2 basics wont do anything. You'll need 3-4 to really matter. Thats too tight of a manabase and losing the ability to cast many spells because you drew a hand of swamp plains as only lands is poor. I beat the only bloodmoon I faced in the tournament by using a TNN in play and equipping it.

Versus POP any basic is great. Normally I want to get 2 sources of colored mana and a single basic maybe 2. Getting to 3 mana to play key 3 drops and 4th land being a wasteland to waste yourself in response to a POP is my general line of play.

Ghost quarter - Just having basics (or at least one they've seen) in your deck makes ghost quarter significantly worse. I had a lands opponent who saw basic island game 1 and 2, and when he had a land light ghost quarter draw he didn't want to just throw away 2 lands.

Versus wasteland - basics are bad. basics help you get to a number of mana sources in play, but not necessarily the right ones. If you lead on deathright then you can lead with underground sea. It is commonly a bad play to waste someone when they have a DRS in play. However, if you have a land light hand and need to lead on ponder or multiple cantrips then not getting wastelanded is very important. Hence the island. You also always want more blue mana in my list, so island is never bad, while swamp is often terrible. I faced MANY wastelands during the event.

Running wasteland myself - This gives you many free wins. I've beatten many people by the insane tempo advantage by wastelanding their eye of ugin (semi finals), or their only source of mana when they lead on ponder. This also gives you outs to maze of ith, tabernacle, grove punishing fire, glacial chasm lock, and dark depths combo. I treat wasteland as a spell not as a land, hence why I run 21 lands while many Czech pile decks run 20.

cheinp
10-30-2017, 11:46 AM
reckon, as you said, last 2-0 he always drew every card he needed but don't we forget it was more than 15 rounds... we cannot lapidate his list just because doesn't fit with the standard...

First_Revenge
10-30-2017, 12:03 PM
So ironically, I'm Jon Goss, the SCG winner!

My question to the forum was the night before the SCG with some last minute manabase thoughts. I'll write up how things felt and a tournament report to explain what I've faced and where key pieces performed well.


Wohoo looking forward to your tournament report :). The small ones i write about my weeklies are far less meaningful than your will be! Also kinda cool knowing whatever you picked up here may have helped you in your success!

Regarding your comments about wasteland, i suppose i'll have to try some greedier lists. I see what your saying about basics vs wastelands and partially find myself agreeing with it. I do have quite a lot of POP floating around in my meta though, so that's partially why i've not been pressured out of basics yet. Could also be i'm just flat out wrong.

Did you face any DnT in the tournament? Its been a deck i'm really struggled against in the past.



reckon, as you said, last 2-0 he always drew every card he needed but don't we forget it was more than 15 rounds... we cannot lapidate his list just because doesn't fit with the standard...

Fair enough, i can see how it came off that way. But putting it plainly, he took down a major tournament, he's doing something right. As someone who plays basics in their list though, that game is an example of why i like having basics.

Molz7
10-30-2017, 12:22 PM
As I said in a previous post, I won SCG DC! Deathblade was my weapon of choice and it performed very well.

I played tightly most of the event with a few mishaps in the last match, but I did also get lucky to win on occasion. You need to get lucky sometimes to come out on top after 18 rounds of magic.

My decklist can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116973

Matchups throughout the 18 rounds were actually primarily fair decks.


Matchups:
Day 1-
Grixis Control
Death and Taxes - with Magus of the moon
Maverick
Czech Pile - Loss
Tin Fins reanimator combo
Grixis Delver
Grixis Delver
Esper Mentor
RUG Delver

Day 2-
4 Color Loam - Loss - opponent I rematched in the finals.
Shardless BUG
Death and Taxes
Grixis Delver
Temur Delver - Loss
4 Color Loam - Todd Stephens

Top 8-
Grixis Delver
Eldrazi
4 Color Loam


I posted above how wasteland and the single island were very important. I would definitely play 2 wastelands, but I could argue the island should be another fetch. I was happy as it was though.

The way I play this deck is truly as a midrange deck.

Why this over Bant Blade? - They are too susceptible to bad top decks (daze/noble) and bad. Thought seize/Strix help buy you time to get to land drops and play your 3's rather than jamming them into opponent's dazes on 2.
Why this over a more controlling Esper Deathblade? - We don't grind as well as the loam/shardless/4color decks really. We are the aggressor and playing difficult to remove threats is how you win. I beat the finals match on tempo, not on grinding.

Versus the aggressive delver decks/maverick/death and taxes decks, I am the control deck. I thought to seize threats, focusing on removing their threats with removal before playing my own, and focus on building a stronger manabase in play versus waste/port/stifle. This only requires ESPER mana to do. Sideboard I have 3 zealous because it helps with the influx of True Name nemesis in delver, is very strong versus Young pyro, and Death and Taxes. I mainly played 3 because it is extremely good versus the 4 TNN 4 Noble hierarch Bant Blade version. This is the same reason I don't like lingering souls. It lets their delluges, night of souls betrayal, golgari charm, zealous be great against all of your main threats. You get green mana later with a leovold to end the game versus delver. (board out leovolds versus D&T so green isn't very important as it would be if I ran decay).

Versus the controllier decks - 4 color loam, Czech pile, Shardless bug, Lands etc. These decks just want the game to go longer to strip you of resources and out grind. They have few strong answers to either Leovold or True Name. I use thought seize to punch a hole through their strong sideboard cards. I've beaten many lilly's, toxic delluges, zealous persecutions, chokes, magus of the moon, chalice of the void etc. Thought seize and force of will (on occasion still in post board) are the great equalizer. We do need to end the game quickly to win.

Some thoughts on specific card choices -
1 JTMS - Jace is bad versus grixis delver with TNN, young pyro, bolt and mana denial being their focus. I side it out versus them.
1 Snap - I really wanted a 5th removal spell in the main, and snap is that (plus pitches to FOW)
4 TNN - This card is really unfair. They occasionally can beat one with a sideboard card, but rarely the second.
3 Ponder - I originally played 2 and an extra land, but the 3rd ponder was phenominal. You do board them out versus chalice decks, but very happy with 3 and could see trying to play 4.
2 Council Judgement in the board - No decay/disenchant. Need to have removal for problem permenants because legacy has some very strange decks. This is also good versus decks that don't punish your mana. I was very lucky to draw one of these in the finals after my opponent waste landed me out of blue mana but left me with 2 white.
1 Savanah 1 Trop - The manabase is very complicated. Knowing what to fetch when is the most difficult part of playing this deck, but if you can solve the puzzle and adjust to wastelands then you have the most powerful spells at your disposal! The only time my fetches to duals was ackward was having delta and not being able to fetch savanah after trop got wasted in the final game.
2 Strix - This card does basically everything you want it to. Versus delver you just want to answer their threats and eventually in the late game your cards are just better pound for pound. Strix is both a removal spell and digging you for more lands.

On specific matchups that were interesting -
Loss to Czech Pile - I won game one by playing a SFM and leaving up 3 to 5 mana versus his obvious K command. I attached for 4 and he couldn't really handle the germ until he had to tripple block with 2 DRS and a snap to trade for the germ. By now I found a force for the kCommand. Key play to remember when rebuying batterskull is activate SFM and holding priority return batterskull. This way if they have a bolt for the SFM you still get the skull back into play. I ended up losing this match as my only loss day 1 because of ponder that missed on lands, and a brainstorm that locked my with sea, scrubland, wasteland in play. I had 2 TNN, 2 Leo, 1 Skull, 1 JTMS in hand. Any land wins the game easily in any of those 8 cards (ponder, shuffle, drawstep, brainstorm), but no extra land results in a loss.

Win versus reanimator - I aggressively mulled playable but non interactive hands to 4 on the play (5 had no lands), he mulled to 5. I keep Scrubland, savanah, thought seize, SFM. Take his reanimate spell and SFM for SoFI, he therapys me. I literally attack 11 times with my 1/2 stoneforge as my main threat. I eventually find a DRS/surgical/force and finally blue mana to have protection.

Loss to 4 color Loam in the swiss - I kept a 1 land, DRS, TNN, Leo, SFM, Brainstorm, Brainstorm hand on the draw. Any second land makes this hand insane, but my opponent plays a chalice on 1 turn 2 on the play and I do not draw a second land until turn 5. Still make a game of it with SFM though. Ironically in the finals match my opening hand is almost the same thing, but this time with a Force of Will instead of the TNN. I keep it knowing what he's playing but luckily hit a land this time.

Loss to Temur Delver - my opponent played a winter orb that I didn't think would bother me much as I only had 2 lands. I kept untapping duals and he would draw a wasteland just before I could play a spell. Was always 1 mana off turning the corner with a threat with 5 lands in play. He drew a goose and my 2 plows were not enough.

Win versus Esper Mentor - My opponent was run over game one by SFM/Skull, Thought seize and force providing backup. He landed a mentor and I plowed it. I dislike having my main win condition easily removed. TNN would have likely won him the game instead of mentor. Game 2 he ponders on a tundra and shuffles, this is the universal sign for 'I don't have lands'. So wastelanding him results in a free win.



As you can tell I'm playing the most powerful spells with a complicated and greedy manabase. I played versus 13 decks running 4 wastelands as a primary focus of their deck. Fetching more duals is better than just a few basics and getting cut off colors. This is also the reason I want powerful sticky threats on their own like TNN and Leovold, so that after they resolve I get waste landed, but thats okay. mentor/snapcaster as 3 drops want me to continue having mana when I untap.

Hopefully this helped enlighten the group on some different thoughts! True Name Nemesis is extremely powerful as the meta shifts towards more fair decks (as you can see the delver decks moving to TNN as well).

Happy to answer any questions!

Molz7
10-30-2017, 12:28 PM
Wohoo looking forward to your tournament report :). The small ones i write about my weeklies are far less meaningful than your will be! Also kinda cool knowing whatever you picked up here may have helped you in your success!

Regarding your comments about wasteland, i suppose i'll have to try some greedier lists. I see what your saying about basics vs wastelands and partially find myself agreeing with it. I do have quite a lot of POP floating around in my meta though, so that's partially why i've not been pressured out of basics yet. Could also be i'm just flat out wrong.

Did you face any DnT in the tournament? Its been a deck i'm really struggled against in the past.




Fair enough, i can see how it came off that way. But putting it plainly, he took down a major tournament, he's doing something right. As someone who plays basics in their list though, that game is an example of why i like having basics.


The last match was the first time I was really on camera even though I sat at the backup match 3 times ( 5 minutes verus Todd Stephens doesn't really count). This match I obviously got very lucky. You need to get lucky to win a tournament. Playskill and preparation are no where near enough. When I drew the council's judgement in game 2 as a huge out to solidly win the match I knew, and verbally said to my opponent 'I'm very lucky it seems'. Same when I drew the TNN after punting game 1 by not equipping strix with Jitte. The line went through my head and I just absolutely blanked. I was at 40 life, so likely I'd be fine, but still don't give them outs.

Imagine I draw the council's judgement (or any other card not in my deck) and I look down to basic island and swamp because he wasted me off of my non basics. Likely not winning that game.

First_Revenge
10-30-2017, 01:03 PM
I know you didn't play against it, but did you have any specific plans that deal with new miracles?

Terminus seems really good against your deck, since it deals with both TNN and leovold. It's one of the reasons i run lingering souls.

scapiander
10-30-2017, 01:05 PM
The last match was the first time I was really on camera even though I sat at the backup match 3 times ( 5 minutes verus Todd Stephens doesn't really count). This match I obviously got very lucky. You need to get lucky to win a tournament. Playskill and preparation are no where near enough. When I drew the council's judgement in game 2 as a huge out to solidly win the match I knew, and verbally said to my opponent 'I'm very lucky it seems'. Same when I drew the TNN after punting game 1 by not equipping strix with Jitte. The line went through my head and I just absolutely blanked. I was at 40 life, so likely I'd be fine, but still don't give them outs.

Imagine I draw the council's judgement (or any other card not in my deck) and I look down to basic island and swamp because he wasted me off of my non basics. Likely not winning that game.

Any other sideboarding options you considered that might be worth it in a narrower local meta? I.e. disenchant, lingering souls, or any other things you might consider?

For example, I battle a meta filled with fair Czech pile and DnT strategies.

Molz7
10-30-2017, 01:39 PM
I know you didn't play against it, but did you have any specific plans that deal with new miracles?

Terminus seems really good against your deck, since it deals with both TNN and leovold. It's one of the reasons i run lingering souls.

I've played versus the miracles version in the past and they are really reliant on terminus or a verdict to win the game. This is a matchup where TNN or a Leo with Sofi is gameplan A. I keep in forces and thought seize as I'm just trying to punch a hole and be the aggressor. Given enough time they will set up and out grind you.

In the past I would bring in meddling mage versus terminus. I like this if they continue running only terminus, but if they switch to multiple verdicts than I don't like it.

TNN is still your best card in this matchup. Souls is just too slow of a clock to really pressure them.

Molz7
10-30-2017, 01:46 PM
Any other sideboarding options you considered that might be worth it in a narrower local meta? I.e. disenchant, lingering souls, or any other things you might consider?

For example, I battle a meta filled with fair Czech pile and DnT strategies.


DnT is a very good matchup for my version. TNN and equipment, 3 zealous, plows etc is a nightmare for them. I board -4 FOW, -2 Leo, + 3 Zealous, + 2 Council's judgment, +1 library.


Czech pile I really wanted to test against more before this weekend, but I couldn't find time. My plan was the 3rd leovold and a library. TNN is great here and so is leovold. They both need an edict to remove normally, so prioritizing thought seizes towards those types of removal spells works well. If you have a ton of Czech pile you could consider a gideon or non blue threat. Lingering souls plays into sideboard -1/-1 effects too much for my liking in general, but I could see it working. I was doing -4 FOW, -2 Plow, -1 Island (games go long) +2 Council judgment, +1 Leo, +1 Library, + 2 Fluster, +1 Sofi. I debated keeping in forces or trying a surgical or 2, but I didn't have enough time to test these.

Hanni
10-30-2017, 03:03 PM
First of all, congrats on winning the SCG Open.

Considering the amount of mana denial strategies that you played against over the weekend, I'm very impressed with your results.

Most of my experience comes from playing Bant Deathblade and Mentor Deathblade, although I have tried many other variations of Stoneblade over the years. I've always found that one of the biggest weaknesses of the archetype are against decks that are able to get underneath you before your more powerful gameplan comes online.

This is the reason why I feel that Bant Deathblade is great... the 8 mana dorks help that deck develop its mana. This is also why I like the Mentor Deathblade list I played at EW... the colored requirements are light, the deck has a bunch of basics, and a fairly low curve.

Obviously you had different results over the weekend. You ran a color-source intensive list with a very top heavy curve without Noble Hierarch, and it worked out very well for you.

I still stand by what I said before though. If you're going greedy, I don't like playing with basics.

I'm still skeptical of playing Wasteland outside of the Bant Deathblade shell, but I may have to reconsider that perspective.

Hanni
10-30-2017, 03:14 PM
As far as TNN vs Mentor is concerned, they do different things which I don't think are easily comparable. In the right spot, Mentor can be very resilient to spot removal. It's also much better when you can Probe/Therapy to clear the way first, or can protect it for a turn.

TNN is much stronger against heavy spot removal decks, and against decks with a slower clock. TNN is more vulnerable to sweep effects... TNN is vulnerable to Zealous Persecution, Marsh Casualties, Golgar Charm, etc, where Mentor is not.

Running Deluge in the board when you play TNN is a non-bo, whereas it becomes an option if you play Mentor.

TNN is vulnerable to Pyroblast, where Mentor is not. Mentor is vulnerable to Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night, where TNN is not.

TNN is more vulnerable to Diabolic Edict and Drop of Honey. Mentor is more vulnerable to Abrupt Decay.

TNN is atrocious against combo decks, where Mentor is fantastic. TNN is better in an aggro/tempo approach, whereas Mentor is better in a control approach.

Mentor has the ability to bring you back from losing board states in a way TNN never could, but requires a deck composition that is heavy in non-land, non-creature spells, and requires that you have the resources to do it. TNN is a better topdeck when you are empty-handed.

So the point is that it's not really cut and dry. Both have pros and cons. I like both approaches. I've had great success with Bant Deathblade, and I've had great success with Mentor Deathblade. I don't think either approach is better than the other.

Molz7
10-30-2017, 03:28 PM
As far as TNN vs Mentor is concerned, they do different things which I don't think are easily comparable. In the right spot, Mentor can be very resilient to spot removal. It's also much better when you can Probe/Therapy to clear the way first, or can protect it for a turn.

TNN is much stronger against heavy spot removal decks, and against decks with a slower clock. TNN is more vulnerable to sweep effects... TNN is vulnerable to Zealous Persecution, Marsh Casualties, Golgar Charm, etc, where Mentor is not.

Running Deluge in the board when you play TNN is a non-bo, whereas it becomes an option if you play Mentor.

TNN is atrocious against combo decks, where Mentor is fantastic. TNN is better in an aggro/tempo approach, whereas Mentor is better in a control approach, especially in combination with Therapy.

So the point is that it's not really cut and dry. Both have pros and cons. I like both approaches. I've had great success with Bant Deathblade, and I've had great success with Mentor Deathblade. I don't think either approach is better than the other.


Good points. I really like probe therapy, and I think if you're doing that mentor makes more sense.

TNN is bad versus combo decks, but Leovold is insane. So I board out the bad one depending on matchup. The one that isn't good depending on matchup is still blue, and is pitchable to force.

A big focus for me is that all of my 3+ mana cards are blue so early in the game I can pitch them to force of will if needed. I also haven't played with therapy enough to be a master like some of your blind calls. I like thought seize to see what lines up well against my current hand and adjust accordingly.

Mentor is a much faster clock when you untap with it, I've just been wastelanded significantly before I untap with TNN. I feel like a mentor shell with daze could be fairly strong too.

I definitely like mentor with therapy/probe/basics and TNN with Thought Seize/wastelands. I think they are likely not interchangable much as pieces.

whocansay
10-30-2017, 06:00 PM
Thanks a lot for coming in here and sharing all this valuable information, I'm sure I'm not the only one who really appreciates it. You've definitely convinced me to give 4C a shot again. Only card I'm missing from your list is the third Underground Sea - how would you adjust it if that were a Bayou? Is this at all doable?

Oh, and isn't 4 Mystics overkill?

First_Revenge
10-31-2017, 12:59 PM
First 3-0 in a long time. Made a few misplays, but was saved by insane draws or opponents making bigger misplays. List is still the same, I’m pretty happy at this point other than a card or two.


Match 1: UWR Stoneblade(2-1 Win)
I'm probably more proud of this win than i should be. Finally took down an extremely good player, probably lost to this guy 3-4 times in a row.

Game 1: Win
On the play I keep 2 thoughtseize, TNN, and some lands. I thoughtseize him see 5 lands, brainstorm, and TNN. I take his brainstorm, and follow up on the next turn to grab his TNN. After that I resolve my own TNN and start beating him down for the win, I think I get him down to 1 or 2 before he gets rid of the TNN with his 1 of council’s judgment. Brainstorm finds collective brutality, and I drain him for lethal.

Game 2: Loss
Sideboard:
-3 Thoughtseize
-4 FoW
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Disenchant
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I stick a TNN again and start beating down. He deploys a SFM I can’t deal with and a batterskull. I have another TNN in hand which I feel forced to deploy so I can deep beating down and keep the skull in check. I know the dangers of this as I can walk into an engineered explosives or supreme verdict. I do walk into a verdict and he ends up killing me not long thereafter.

Game 3:
I do some thinking beforehand and decide to switch things up with my sideboard. Still not sure how to feel about this SB play, I do want advice on this if you have any.
-4 DRS
-1 Fatal Push
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 FoW
Essentially, I’m thinking that his deck is a longer range version of mine. While DRS does set up for explosive plays, it can be a dead draw late game. So I trade them in for more longrange cards like thoughtseize/FoW to disrupt his gameplan.

I shuffle these cards up and proceed to draw the nuts. TNN, Jace, Lingering Souls, and lands. My follow up draws are 2 TNNs. He manages to stick a vendilion clique equip a jitte, and swing. He uses the jitte counters to kill my two spirit tokens. My topdeck is none other than a very timely disenchant to destroy it. A few turns later I swing with TNN putting him at 2. My hand is DRS, DRS, and Brutality. I bait a DRS to see what he does and he taps out to play counterspell. I follow up with Brutality for lethal and he concedes, ending the game on the spot.


Match 2: Aggro Loam(2-1 Win)

Game 1:
Not much of a game, I get pinned under chalice on 1 and 2 wastelands. My board state never progresses and I lose not long thereafter.

Game 2:
-2 Lingering Souls
-1 Collective Brutality
-2 Spell Pierce
-2 FoW
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Disenchant
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+1 Engineered Explosives

Probably mistakenly I keep a hand with SFM, SFM, 2 fetchlands, ponder, brainstorm, and fatal push. I crack for an island, ponder and pass the turn. He plays chalice on 1, which is terrible and makes me instantly regret keeping this marginal hand. I follow up with SFM fetching batterskull, he takes his turn to deploy bob. I start beating down with batterskull, and deploy my 2nd SFM fetching SoFi, he casts life from the loam. My opponent makes it awkward by playing choke. I flash in SoFi in response, but the only land I have that untaps is a swamp so I can’t actually equip it. A turn or two later I find wasteland, equip the sword and keep swinging in, putting my opponent at 2 life. He deploys a very large knight, but against 2 SFMs and Batterskull it’s not enough and he gets dealt lethal.
My opponent’s mistake was not dredging his earlier life from the loam. He acknowledges his mistake, but either way I’ll take a win I guess.

Game 3:
On the draw FoW is going to be required to deal with a T1 chalice so I need to adjust my SB again.
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 FoW

I draw FoW, FoW, DRS, brainstorm, ponder, and some dual lands. I FoW my opponents opening chalice and from there the game comes to a standstill. We trade threats mostly, he liliana’s my TNN, I cast engineered explosives to kill lilana. And I think I get rid of two knights. I’m drawing into mostly duals and draws into 3 wastelands so I’m more or less unable to develop a manabase. I make a mistake by hanging onto a surgical extraction as he starts casting punishing fire to tick me down by 1 life at a time, a huge mistake on my part. If he drew the second grove my surgical extraction targeting punishing fire no longer works. The reason I’m not deploying it is because I’m stuck, my hand is jace, ponder, surgical extraction. My manabase is plains and swamp. I’m doubtful I can deploy jace so I’m not sure if I should save extraction for life from the loam. In the end I sit on extraction and get lucky he doesn’t find a 2nd grove.
A key drawstep comes when I find a fetchland, I fetch for island, ponder and see another fetchland to deploy jace next turn. I resolve jace, surgical extraction his pfire, and pretty much end the game on the spot.


Match 3: New Miracles(2-0 Win)
Was kinda apprehensive walking into this match as I’ve never played this deck before. My opener is DRS, underground sea, fetchlands, lingering souls, SFM, collective brutality, and a ponder. I keep, underground sea into DRS and pass. My opponent ponders and passes it back. I brutality him, deciding that I want to duress, I see 4 lands, brainstorm, predict, and terminus. I’m not sure what to take here, brainstorm is always a pretty solid choice, I know predict gives him card advantage, and I know terminus is gonna bin whatever threat I find. I end up going with terminus, and use my third mana to cast a 2nd DRS since I’m not afraid of sweepers anymore. He plows one of my DRS on his turn which is fine by me. I take my turn to deploy SFM fetching batterskull to apply pressure. I make a critical mistake that I got away with. On my turn I see 5 mana up on his side, a volcanic island is his only red source. I’m pretty sure he’s telegraphing red blast, so I go to wasteland the volcanic island, he floats a blue in response, and I’m convince I’m in the clear. I windmill slam jace only to see him hardcast a FoW off the floated mana. I needed to pass to 2nd main to avoid the problem, I was just so happy to see no pyroblast in hand I forgot this step entirely. He manages to stick a mentor but I swords it before things get too far out of hand, he only gets 2 tokens out of it. Eventually TNN resolves and puts him to two again. I cast brutality for drain for lethal.

Game 2:
-2 Spell Pierce
-2 Collective Brutality
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Fatal Push
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Surgical Extraction
In retrospect, invasive surgery and engineered plague naming monk would have been great here, I need to include those next time.
Other than that I got rid of spell pierce since games go long and it does little to address terminus. Brutality doesn’t do a whole lot in this matchup, its duress effect is still helpful, but it can’t reliably kill a mentor.
My starting 7 is ridiculous. TNN, Lingering Souls, SFM, Leovold, brutality, and lands. I probably can’t ask for a much better hand than this. I lead with a brutality, and he brainstorms in response. I believe I yank some countermagic. I resolve a SFM and he terminus’s it away, which is fine by me. Next turn is another SFM, which he pyroclasms. My next turn I cast Lingering souls and to start beating down again. He resolves a Jace, but can’t brainstorm because the spirit tokens keep beating him down. I try to snapcaster mage, flashing back brutality to see if the way is clear for a Jace to resolve, but he counterspells to stop snapcaster. At this point he is tapped out and I go for a jace of my own and it resolves. I brainstorm finding surgical extraction and thoughtseize, money cards in this boardstate, especially with a terminus in the graveyard. I cast the thoughtseize revealing Fireblast, jace, counterspell, FoW, and Snapcaster. I stupidly take the fireblast. He snapcasters to blast my jace which I somehow didn’t see... He takes the last counter off his jace to return snapcaster mage to hand.
At this point my hand is TNN, Leovold, Batterksull, jitte , and surgical extraction. I decide to see how he wants to use his countermagic by casting surgical extraction targeting terminus. He thinks about it, and lets it slide, no more terminus. I attempt to resolve the 2nd half of my lingering souls for more pressure, combined with my DRS is a 6 damage clock. He does nothing, so I go for jitte, pretty much knowing it’s going to be countered. It is. At this point the snapcaster he bounced back to hand comes back to haunt me. He snaps back pyroclasm clearing my board, I’m pretty mad at myself for walking both halves of lingering souls into the same sweeper, defeating the beauty of the card. At this point all he’s got is FoW, Jace in hand. I have to decide if I want to resolve TNN or Leovold, batterskull is the 3rd card in hand.
TNN has the advantage of being almost unanswerable since his terminus is gone. But he does have a jace in hand, and if he brainstorms well, he could find mentor and cards to start making a bunch of tokens. The game could conceivably get away from me, he is at roughly 10 life so TNN gives him 3-4 turns to mess around with. Leovold on the other hand shuts the door hard on him, but is soft to swords, which I think there are two of left in his deck. While leovold would 2-1 itself if he finds swords, there’s still no guarantee that the drawn card is useful, and maybe what I do want is TNN, a threat he just can’t get off the board. In the end I decide leovold is more important and cast TNN as bait, he takes the bait, casting FoW pitching jace leaving him hellbent. Leovold resolves after that and he’s now in topdeck mode. Batterskull resolves the turn after and he can’t recover.


Overall, I got away with 2 critical mistakes, but my draws and opening hands were pretty insane tonight. Still have to tighten up play in a few places, noteably, I seem to get too excited about resolving jace leading me to make stupid mistakes.

NedB37
11-03-2017, 04:50 AM
@Molz7 Really appreciate you writing up your thoughts and explanations. I managed to watch quite a few games over the weekend so saw a couple of your matches, including the final. Primarily an Esper Blade player but will be giving Deathblade a whirl at an upcoming FNM, if not in some casual games beforehand.

RHWil
11-22-2017, 09:03 PM
@Molz7 The insights were great. I'm just getting into Legacy and wanted to play SFM but wasn't sure whether to go Bant or Esper route. Your explanations made me think about my style of play. I like proactive strategies and having answers so I went the Esper route.

Other than Dredge, what matches are players finding success with Surgical Extraction and Library?

First_Revenge
11-23-2017, 04:08 PM
@Molz7 The insights were great. I'm just getting into Legacy and wanted to play SFM but wasn't sure whether to go Bant or Esper route. Your explanations made me think about my style of play. I like proactive strategies and having answers so I went the Esper route.

Other than Dredge, what matches are players finding success with Surgical Extraction and Library?

I can't speak to library since i don't play it. I'd wager its useful in midrange grindy games.


Surgical extraction i find useful in combo matchups that rely on one card to go off. Reanimator is a good example, extracting griselbrand in their yard takes away their premier threat and makes them burn a reanimate spell if you time it right.

Otherwise its still very useful against decks that revolve around a single card. Show and tell decks are the easiest and most popular example. If you find a surgical extraction in your opening hand you really want to get the show and tell into the yard. You can most efficiently do this with thoughtseize, or you can win a counter war over a show and tell to get one in there. Either way, once your opponent has show and tell in the yard you can extract it and mess with their gameplan. Its also good against decks like miracles, if you can surgical key cards out like terminus leaving them few ways to deal with a TNN.

It should also be noted that this card is busted with snapcaster mage. Snapping back surgical extraction taking away even more key cards from their deck is backbreaking.

RHWil
11-25-2017, 09:01 PM
Thanks for the thoughts First Revenge. What is a good strategy against lands? I'm thinking I want to/options are: 1) Wasteland their Stage after Dark Depths is sac'ed to the legend rule while Stage/copied Depths trigger is on the stack, 2) Surgical/DRS the Loam/lands, 3) Save Plows for Lage if it resolves, 4) Thoughtseize/FOW the Gamble/Rotation/Loam depending on situation, 5) JTMS bounce Lage, and 6) side in Council's Judgment.

Are there any other strategies I'm missing?

cheinp
11-27-2017, 04:12 AM
Thanks for the thoughts First Revenge. What is a good strategy against lands? I'm thinking I want to/options are: 1) Wasteland their Stage after Dark Depths is sac'ed to the legend rule while Stage/copied Depths trigger is on the stack, 2) Surgical/DRS the Loam/lands, 3) Save Plows for Lage if it resolves, 4) Thoughtseize/FOW the Gamble/Rotation/Loam depending on situation, 5) JTMS bounce Lage, and 6) side in Council's Judgment.

Are there any other strategies I'm missing?

If you have to play around 5) or 6) you'll probably be dead...

Basically, you win this match resolving DRS and protecting him. Of course, 3) is highly recommended as well :D

RHWil
11-27-2017, 07:04 PM
If you have to play around 5) or 6) you'll probably be dead...

Basically, you win this match resolving DRS and protecting him. Of course, 3) is highly recommended as well :D

Is it worth SB out the FOWs? I’m trying to decide what to take out in this match for the Surgicals, possibly Meddling Mage, and CJ?

2 Strix is an easy cut but should Leovold stay in as well?

phg22
11-28-2017, 03:09 AM
Leovold's great vs Lands. He's hard to cast but if he comes down it punishes so much. Port, Maze, P-Fire all dig you towards the cards that do matter. Force is a necessary evil. Exploration, Gamble, P-Fire on a turn 1 DRS are all very important to counter. If you actually manage to stick a Shaman early thats huge. Cut any discard, cut Jitte, maybe cut 2 SFM and BSkull. Surgical is your best card, Meddling Mage is better than most, and CJ is straight trash. Honestly having Strix to be a body and chump Marit Lage isn't nothing.

Hrothgar
11-28-2017, 10:00 PM
Hi guys, now we have a Deathblade section into Discord chat and you're welcome!
This link / invite don't expire:

https://discord.gg/wtehtyY

First_Revenge
11-29-2017, 09:34 AM
Thanks for the thoughts First Revenge. What is a good strategy against lands? I'm thinking I want to/options are: 1) Wasteland their Stage after Dark Depths is sac'ed to the legend rule while Stage/copied Depths trigger is on the stack, 2) Surgical/DRS the Loam/lands, 3) Save Plows for Lage if it resolves, 4) Thoughtseize/FOW the Gamble/Rotation/Loam depending on situation, 5) JTMS bounce Lage, and 6) side in Council's Judgment.

Are there any other strategies I'm missing?

I don't play against lands too much, but its pretty tricky.

G1 is tough, even though you have swords you don't have access to surgical extraction. This means its hard to apply meaningful pressure, if you plow their lage they gain 20 life and essentially reset and try to build the combo a second time. G1 i focus more on getting TNN on the field and clocking them that way since it can't be P'fired. Unfortunately, once you have to swords a lage though its probably over. In this game i lean pretty hard on counter magic to stop their tutors.

G2 and G3 are completely different. In a lot of ways the only card in their deck that really matters dark depths(preferable) or thespian's stage. You game plan here is to plow the first lage they make then extract either of those two lands. In this case giving them 20 life doesn't really matter. Once you get lage out of their deck they don't really have a way to win. Depending on your manabase, you may have to extract a loam to stop a wasteland lock or even a ghost quarter lock.

Sorcery speed stuff like JTMS/Judgement are really wonky. Most of the time your lands opponent is just going to endstep make the lage token so these cards won't really matter.

Only counter or thoughtseize the loam if you have a DRS ready to eat it immediately. Otherwise they just dredge it back.

If you're really struggling against lands and you know you'll be playing against lands a lot, path to exile is a good sideboard card. Pathing a lage nets them essentially nothing but a basic. Its also relevant against the greedier manabases running around that may or may not even have a basic to fetch.

RHWil
11-29-2017, 09:30 PM
I definitely appreciate the thoughts. I'm just jumping into Legacy and didn't know all of the lines to take against some of the decks. Another one I haven't played against is Grixis Delver. What are some strategies for that matchup?

phg22
11-29-2017, 10:00 PM
Basic Lands tips: Be careful about trying to eat or surgical Loam and P-Fire. Obviously Grove and P-Fire is a known thing. But people often forget to play around Tranquil (and now Sheltered) Thicket cycling to instant dredge Loam, or Crop Rotation for Grove. Honestly sometimes you just can't do anything about it or can't play around something. So you have to consider the odds of drawing into something to change the situation vs how much worse your board position will become by allowing them to continue unmolested.

Deathblade vs Lands is often about small edges and finding every avenue to interact and squeeze out victory. Realistically, they are favored by a good margin and if their plan comes together it will be hard to win. The first few times you play the matchup, you will probably lose, and the best thing is to look back at where you could have done something differently or made them have something. If you play Wastelands or enough basics to reasonably support Back to Basics, these can help. I'm partial to Invasive Surgery as a good SB card for combo matchups that doubles as Loam hate that ignores Thicket cycling and the like. If you can't play B2B or Wasteland but really want to stick it to Lands or maybe have some 12 Post running around, Global Ruin exist so that your 4 color greed pile can punish them for their audacity to play so many nonbasics.


There are times to counter a loam you can't Shaman, but they are rare and often mean you are losing. Sometimes you just can't let them have that Stage, Depths, Wasteland, Tabernacle this turn. Countering loam usually means you either need to draw a very specific card to not lose or need one turn to kill them. Force can be pressured between Exploration, Gamble, and in many spots Crop Rotation, but sometimes its really weak against a Loam plus lands draw.

tescrin
11-30-2017, 06:22 PM
Any other sideboarding options you considered that might be worth it in a narrower local meta? I.e. disenchant, lingering souls, or any other things you might consider?

For example, I battle a meta filled with fair Czech pile and DnT strategies.

These decks both struggle with Bitterblossom quite badly unless you get aggro'd pretty hard. Unlikely to have removal for the Blossom, and even if all it does is buy you some time that's often the problem you have when facing D&T. You don't want to be caught spending 7 against D&T while they choke your mana. You want to spend 3 and make most of their trades *very bad.*

I think the game it impressed me most was that I tanked a batterskull for a bit while slowly building my board against his; he went into large trades in combat once I had enough air power that I could overpower the lifelink while blocking; and the trades ended up being his Skull, Thalia, Thalia 2.0, and I think another creature or two in there with very conservative play on my part; eventually landing my own skull on a flying token and winning. You can bet that guy was quite steamed.

The fact that Blossom is an absolute tank against Lands and is generally good in any mid-range MU; which means it should serve you well over the course of a tournament.

RHWil
11-30-2017, 11:35 PM
Got wrecked by storm when testing my first time against it. I’m thinking AN is the card to fight over. Waited for Tendrils and let AN resolve. Quickly learned that was a bad idea. My SB plan is 2 Flusterstorms, 2 Meddling Mage, 3 Surgical Extraction. Already running 4 FOW and 4 Thoughtseize.

First_Revenge
12-01-2017, 10:29 AM
AD is definitely the card you want to fight over. Their tutors are also decent things to fight over, although i believe storm player sometimes just like to use them as bait for your countermagic.

I don't know your decklist so specific advice is difficult in a deck as configurable as stoneblade, but that being the case i think a really good card for our deck is collective brutality. Its a decent killspell and a decent discard spell. Cards like swords to plowshares are truly excellent but they're dead draws in a the storm matchup for example.

To show you what i mean, here is what my deck looks like post sideboard against a storm deck:
4 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persection(if they run empty the warrens)
1 Engineered Explosives(if they run empty the warrens)

Thats 9 Counterspells, 6 discard spells, 2 yard hate cards, and 3 outs to empty the warrens with snapcaster mage to buy some of those spells back.

At the same time collective brutality lets me do this against a aggro/delver deck:
4 STP
2 Fatal Push
3 Collective Brutality
2 Zealous Persection
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague

Collective Brutality lets me turn my deck into a pile of killspells or a pile of discard/countermagic.

As a side note collective brutality against burn is hilariously effective if you escalate it twice.

RHWil
12-01-2017, 06:11 PM
Since I’ve only played Legacy entire 3 week’s I felt like I needed a tuned list and I know I wanted to play Bant or Esper Deathblade so I ended up using Molz’s 75 but swapping out 1 Leovold in the SB for a Clique because I wanted more hand disruption.

My post SB options include
4 FOW
2 Flusterstorm
4 Thoughtseize
1 Clique
3 Surgical
2 Meddling Mage
3 Zealous although I’d probably only go w 2 unless I’m playing Elves or DNT.

I’d probably cut 4 Plows, 1 Jitte, and 2 Strix for sure. Possibly some mix of SFM or TNN. Keeping in Leovold feels right though. Still need to cut 2-3 cards after Plows and Strix.

tescrin
12-02-2017, 11:53 AM
I really wouldn't run MMage until you're quite proficient. Running Canonist is likely to win you more games even in the other MUs you're gonna board in MMage in. Canonist is great against Infect, Aluren, Food Chain, Storm, and even when it comes to decks it seems mediocre against; like sneakshow; it's a house.

The reason is because it makes all engagements 1-sided. If you're ahead on board you can just leave up a wall of counters and all your opponent can do is trade 1-for-1 each turn with their spells until you run out of counters; which you should be able to judge whether or not you need to counter a spell via meta knowledge.

In order:
* Nuke Ad Nausium -> It's almost always a desperation play these days; as the decks are more likely to win with PiF or just a good Tutor hand.
* Nuke Tutors, but usually only if they're pretty deep or they're using it to get an answer for the boardstate
* Consider nuking Rituals/LEDs -> Careful here, but if you can count their mana properly you can often snip their second ritual or so and really screw them up. It may feel better when you get a 5-for-1 by getting the tutor after popping an LED; but it feels a lot worse when they Ritual, Ritual, Duress, LED, Tutor, You Lose. Doing this bullet point properly takes a lot of good judgement, hand knowledge, etc..

Other times, if you run some heavily conditional counters like Spell Pierce, you may consider hitting random cantrips in the early game just to slow them down. They're cantripping for a reason, and Spierce is a really really mediocre card against them unless you pinch a lucky ritual or they squeeze their mana too hard.

cheinp
12-04-2017, 04:05 AM
I won last small 20 people tournament (no swiss) with quite Molz7 list. The deck is awesome. 13 points, losing dice all times.

Only changing:
Main:
-1 Seize / +1 Fatal push

Side:
-1 Zealous / +1 Elspeth
-2 Meddling / +1 Canonist + 1 Kambal
-1 Leovold / +1 Collective Brutality (I side in all time and thinking about change it by push...)

Pairs (couldn't test against combo):

Deathblade Mirror: 2-1. Basically the first one who resolve an equiped TNN won. Leovold was important as well... I had better draws than him so...

Jeskai Delver: 2-1. It was a weird version of JD. Cutting his delver was enough, he couldn't deal with my TNNs. The one I lost he had 3 delvers which was too much punch for me...

Blade: 1-0. I really sweated against him. I've got the TNN advantage but their veredicts wipe me out more than once... He finally lost the first long one and in the second one he resolved a blood moon but time was running out and five turns weren't enough for him.

4c: 1-1. Long matches. I won the first and he beat me the second crashing me with thousands of kolaghans... No time for tie-break.

Grixis Pyromancer: 2-1. Batterskull won alone the first one. Two delvers and 3bolts were demasiado for me in the second. Third one, Batterskull equiping TNN for the win.

:D

Hrothgar
12-04-2017, 06:19 AM
:D

Congrats!
Can you post your 75? :laugh:

RHWil
12-04-2017, 09:06 AM
Heres Molz’s list that I run. Only change I made is 1 Clique for the Leovold in the SB. It’s the same list as cheinp with the changes stated.

Deck: Legacy Esper Deathblade 1.1.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:17
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:22
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will

Lands:21
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

cheinp
12-04-2017, 09:48 AM
Congrats!
Can you post your 75? :laugh:

It is quite the same as Jon Goss one.

Creatures [17]

1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

Instants [13]

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push

Sorceries [6]

3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [1]

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [2]

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [21]

1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Side:
2 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kambal Consul of Allocation
1 Sylvan Library
1 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

First_Revenge
12-04-2017, 01:56 PM
It is quite the same as Jon Goss one.
Not sure if you are aware but molz=jon goss

militiaman89
12-04-2017, 07:59 PM
As far as TNN vs Mentor is concerned, they do different things which I don't think are easily comparable. In the right spot, Mentor can be very resilient to spot removal. It's also much better when you can Probe/Therapy to clear the way first, or can protect it for a turn.

TNN is much stronger against heavy spot removal decks, and against decks with a slower clock. TNN is more vulnerable to sweep effects... TNN is vulnerable to Zealous Persecution, Marsh Casualties, Golgar Charm, etc, where Mentor is not.

Running Deluge in the board when you play TNN is a non-bo, whereas it becomes an option if you play Mentor.

TNN is vulnerable to Pyroblast, where Mentor is not. Mentor is vulnerable to Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night, where TNN is not.

TNN is more vulnerable to Diabolic Edict and Drop of Honey. Mentor is more vulnerable to Abrupt Decay.

TNN is atrocious against combo decks, where Mentor is fantastic. TNN is better in an aggro/tempo approach, whereas Mentor is better in a control approach.

Mentor has the ability to bring you back from losing board states in a way TNN never could, but requires a deck composition that is heavy in non-land, non-creature spells, and requires that you have the resources to do it. TNN is a better topdeck when you are empty-handed.

So the point is that it's not really cut and dry. Both have pros and cons. I like both approaches. I've had great success with Bant Deathblade, and I've had great success with Mentor Deathblade. I don't think either approach is better than the other.Hey hanni been jamming your list on mtgo, would love to see your sideboard guide for the matchups. Only change i made was -1 EE +1 liliana of the last hope. The deck felt fantastic but didnt know if i sideboard properly even though i didnt win a majority of my matches. Also wondered if daze over pierce was considered as it works with dropping a mentor on turn two alot more valued. Ive played about 5-6 matches and only lost to lands which his hands were insane and it was still very close games. Im going to a larger legacy event this coming weekend and had a.meta full of grixis, lands and delver x decks. I feel that this build or.one with moon.in board would be best and wondered what your insight on it is.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

cheinp
12-05-2017, 03:42 AM
Not sure if you are aware but molz=jon goss

I am :D

Hanni
12-05-2017, 07:54 AM
Hey hanni been jamming your list on mtgo, would love to see your sideboard guide for the matchups. Only change i made was -1 EE +1 liliana of the last hope. The deck felt fantastic but didnt know if i sideboard properly even though i didnt win a majority of my matches. Also wondered if daze over pierce was considered as it works with dropping a mentor on turn two alot more valued. Ive played about 5-6 matches and only lost to lands which his hands were insane and it was still very close games. Im going to a larger legacy event this coming weekend and had a.meta full of grixis, lands and delver x decks. I feel that this build or.one with moon.in board would be best and wondered what your insight on it is.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I have a sideboarding guide on a word doc on my work computer. I need to make some adjustments to it, but I may try to post it soon. Not sure if I'll have the time to do it before your event on the weekend, so I apologize in advance if I cannot.

I had considered Daze in earlier iterations, but the deck doesn't really want to set itself back on land drops, and Spell Pierce is more effective than Daze past the first couple of turns. Daze is great for the times when the deck can ramp into a turn 2 Mentor, but the frequency of that line is fairly low (turn 1 DRS dies often).

ntropy
12-05-2017, 09:11 AM
I have a sideboarding guide on a word doc on my work computer. I need to make some adjustments to it, but I may try to post it soon. Not sure if I'll have the time to do it before your event on the weekend, so I apologize in advance if I cannot.


I would love to see that. I'm trying to reignite the fires of Legacy in a friend, and this is likely the correct deck for them, but it's out of my wheelhouse. A guide to shore up his considerable playskill with some meta knowledge and guidelines would be great.

Hrothgar
12-05-2017, 12:03 PM
Everyone want to see that guide Hanni! :laugh:
If you want to join the Discord Blade Group, a lot of player are interesting to your deck!
I, as always, have some doubt about the 18 lands but the deck work ah ah, i don't know how with 2 Jace and 4 Mentors! :laugh:
Anyway, one of the most nice deck of this last months.

Hanni
12-05-2017, 12:56 PM
Everyone want to see that guide Hanni! :laugh:
If you want to join the Discord Blade Group, a lot of player are interesting to your deck!
I, as always, have some doubt about the 18 lands but the deck work ah ah, i don't know how with 2 Jace and 4 Mentors! :laugh:
Anyway, one of the most nice deck of this last months.

The manabase works because the deck has 12 cantrips, 4 Deathrite Shaman, and 4 basic lands with very light colored requirements for its spells. It might look crazy on paper, but it works fine in actual play.

Hrothgar
12-06-2017, 06:10 AM
The manabase works because the deck has 12 cantrips, 4 Deathrite Shaman, and 4 basic lands with very light colored requirements for its spells. It might look crazy on paper, but it works fine in actual play.

Tanks for reply! :laugh:
I want to test your idea!

Cyanhur
12-12-2017, 03:28 PM
Hi, can i have your opinion about this list :

1 Batterskull
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Lingering Souls
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Swamp
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Underground Sea
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Force of Will
4 Polluted Delta
3 Ponder
1 Scrubland

SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Fatal Push or 1 push + 1 edit diabolic

Somes Friends say me your mana base is strange or maybe cut one TNN for other Creature

Thanks for your anwser!

The metagame is eldrazi, grixis delver bug control, 4c control cz pile, some others deck

First_Revenge
12-18-2017, 04:53 PM
Hey there!

Just for future reference, please list your cards in some sort of order. Lands, creatures, spells, etc... Makes it much easier to read.

That being said the list looks fine. I’d probably cut a TNN for a leovold. In these value heavy matchups, perhaps a second jace would suit you well.

The absence of spell pierce could hurt you in matchups like Czech pile. Pierce is great against kommand, planeswalkers, hymn, and just generally speaking combo decks.

That’d be where I start. You can look at my list posted above for what I used to run, its warped around collective brutality, which is really good.

Neo900
01-08-2018, 07:47 AM
After a long time offline I'm back at The Source with another big sucess at the MKM Series Frankfurt (Germany).
After 10 rounds of magic I was able to reach Top 16 (11th) out of 380 players. I started with a bye and lost against Omnishow and ANT.
Round 1- Bye

Round 2- UB Deathshadow 2-1; game 2 he was able to cut me of my mana completly and I lost. Overall my opponent had really bad draws and bad keeps with solo wasteland etc

Round 3- Death and Taxes 2-0; both games straigth into Jitte and True-Name Nemesis

Round 4- Omnishow 2-0; Starting of with discard and a fast clock. Game 2 I start with Meddling Mage and lock him down with Jace

Round 5- BUG Delver 2-1; Against a friend of mine. The games were very long. Game 1 is quite a race. I have many removal spells. After top decking Jace I was able to bounce Tarmogoyf and attack for win with Notion thief and Jitte. Game 2 I lost against Loam Wasteland lock. Game 3 was very tough. We spent all our spells to a final stall between Baleful Strix and Tarmoyf. I had to set Pithing Needle on Deathrite Shaman to prevent losing against his 2 Shaman. After topdecking a Stoneforge I was able to get Batterskull. With an attack into Tarmogoyf I killed Goyf with Zealous Persecution. Getting me back to 10 life. Top deck Nemesis was his loss.

Round 6- ANT 0-2; He starts his combo but forgot my Deathrite which exiles his tutor in response to Past in flames, left him with Ad Nauseum on 1 life to cast. Finding a Lotus Petal into flashback Ponder into Infernal Tutor. Game 2 he had all discard into my loss.

Round 7- Omnishow 0-2; Getting straight a Grieselbrand draw 14 into my face and his protection, two times -.-

Round 8- BUG Delver 2-0; First Game I got him with double Nemsis. Game 2 I had many removal spells and fast my equipment online.

Round 9 - Bant Blade 2-0; First Game we had both a True-Name with equipment but I had more on mine, all 3. Game 2 I shut down his mana and slow him down and win by True-Name with equipment.

Round 10- Grixis Pyromancer 2-0; Game 1 with Batterskul and enough removal. Game 2 quite similiar, forcing him to bad trades with Stoneforge for a Pyromancer

Deck: Esper DeathBlade (https://deckstats.net/decks/70092/539242-esper-deathblade/de) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Flooded+Strand)
1 Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Island)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Karakas)
1 Marsh Flats (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Marsh+Flats)
1 Plains (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Plains)
4 Polluted Delta (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Polluted+Delta)
1 Scrubland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Scrubland)
1 Swamp (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Swamp)
1 Tropical Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
2 Tundra (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tundra)
2 Underground Sea (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Underground+Sea)
2 Wasteland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Wasteland)

//Spells
1 Batterskull (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Batterskull)
4 Brainstorm (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Brainstorm)
4 Force of Will (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Force+of+Will)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor)
3 Ponder (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ponder)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Sword+of+Fire+and+Ice)
4 Swords to Plowshares (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Swords+to+Plowshares)
3 Thoughtseize (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Thoughtseize)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Umezawa%27s+Jitte)

//Creatures
3 Baleful Strix (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Baleful+Strix)
4 Deathrite Shaman (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Deathrite+Shaman)
1 Notion Thief (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Notion+Thief)
1 Snapcaster Mage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Snapcaster+Mage)
4 Stoneforge Mystic (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Stoneforge+Mystic)
3 True-Name Nemesis (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=True-Name+Nemesis)

//Sideboard
2 Disenchant (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Disenchant)
2 Flusterstorm (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Flusterstorm)
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gideon%2C+Ally+of+Zendikar)
2 Lingering Souls (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Lingering+Souls)
2 Meddling Mage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Meddling+Mage)
1 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
2 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Surgical+Extraction)
1 Vendilion Clique (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Vendilion+Clique)
2 Zealous Persecution (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Zealous+Persecution)

https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (https://deckstats.net/decks/70092/539242-esper-deathblade)


After 12 hours of magic I was quite happy to manage a comeback after two losses.
After this I want to try Liliana, the Last Hope. Bringing back a True-Name Nemesis seems quite nice, paired with removal and a win option in one Planeswalker.
Unearth seems quite interesting too. Maybe I try this one out.

First_Revenge
01-08-2018, 11:07 AM
Hey Neo! Great to see you still putting up terrific results!

Maindeck Notion Thief is spicy. Did you nail anyone with it?

More of a side note about unearth, I’ve been running two of them to pretty reasonable success, 1 maindeck and 1 more SB. That being said in your build I’m not sure it’s that great. For unearth to really shine you need more snapcaster mages to flash it back. Against URX delver decks a pretty sweet line is stoneforge mystic, unearth stoneforge mystic, snapcaster mage unearth stoneforge mystic. Since their deck doesn’t have swords to plowshares you essentially get to 2-1 them 3 times.

Cards like collective brutality are also synergistic because they give you back door ways of casting TNN while dodging mana requirements and pyroblasts.

So yeah it’s pretty good, I just don’t think esper deathblade is a good shell for it. The only reason I was able to fit more snapcasters in my deck is because I cut deathrites and essentially became esper stoneblade. I did this for a few reasons:
1. DRS sits in slots where more traditional “utility” cards sit.
2. DRS warps our manabase significantly in the greedy direction.
3. I believe that our deck doesn’t leverage DRS to its fullest potential like wasteland driven delver decks do.

If you’re up for it i’d love a discussion on the pros/cons of DRS since I’m actively weighing that out now.